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Delgamuukw Trial Transcripts

[Proceedings of the Supreme Court of British Columbia 1988-06-02] British Columbia. Supreme Court Jun 2, 1988

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 6823  1 Vancouver B.C.  2 June 2, 198 8  3  4 THE COURT:  Mr. Grant.  5 THE REGISTRAR:  Calling Delgamuukw versus Her Majesty the Queen  6 at bar.  7 MR. GRANT:  Mr. Williams may just be outside the courtroom.  8  9 GLENFORD WILLIAMS: RESUMED  10  11 THE REGISTRAR:  I caution you, Mr. Williams, you're still under  12 oath.  13  14 EXAMINATION IN CHIEF CONTINUED BY MR. GRANT:  15 Q   Yes, my lord.  I have a document, a package actually,  16 relating to the Gitwangak Band general meeting,  17 Wednesday, April 15, 1987, which I've just produced to  18 my friends this morning.  I just received this  19 material, and I just wish to ask the witness a  20 question relating to one part of it, and that is with  21 respect to the proposed band school.  Firstly, I would  22 ask you, do you recognize this package of material?  23 A   Yes, I do.  24 Q   And is that a package that was prepared for the  25 general meeting on April 15th, 1987?  26 A   That's correct.  27 Q   And is there -- is that the type of package that you  28 prepared for your general band meetings while you were  29 chief councillor?  30 A   That's correct.  31 Q   And have you since the other day, when you raised  32 this, have you instructed the or requested the staff  33 at the Gitwangak Band office to search for similar  34 packages of the other general meetings?  35 A   Yes, I have.  36 Q   And have they been unable to locate other of those  37 packages?  38 A   That's correct.  39 Q   Is this the only package that they were able to locate  40 or have they located others?  41 A   This is the only one they've located.  42 THE COURT:  And its date?  April?  43 MR. GRANT:  It's dated April 15th, 1987.  And I would ask that  44 it be marked as the next exhibit, and I have no  45 objection, given my friends haven't had an opportunity  46 to go through it in detail, that it be marked for  47 identification at this time so they can have a chance 6824  1 to review it.  2 THE COURT:  Well, what is your position, Mr. Plant?  Are you  3 asking for this material?  4 MR. PLANT:  Well, the witness has identified this document.  If  5 my friend seeks to have it marked for identification,  6 I have no objection.  7 THE COURT:  Mr. Macaulay.  8 MR. PLANT:  I mean, you know, when I say I have no objection, I  9 have managed to look at the title page, but that's all  10 I have to say.  11 THE COURT:  Yes.  Well, if it's only marked for identification.  12 I'm not sure on what ground of admissibility --  13 MR. MACAULAY:  I don't know what it proves or what it's for.  14 THE COURT:  I'm not entirely clear either.  15 MR. MACAULAY:  Perhaps once we find out what it's about, then it  16 would be easier to deal with it.  We're just looking  17 at it now.  18 THE COURT:  Well, you don't have an objection if it's marked for  19 identification?  2 0 MR. MACAULAY:  Oh, no.  21 THE COURT:  All right.  Exhibit number, Madam Registrar?  22 THE REGISTRAR:  Exhibit number 577 for ID.  2 3 THE COURT:  Thank you.  24  25 (EXHIBIT 577 FOR IDENTIFICATION:  Package of Documents  26 prepared for Band Meeting of April 15, 1987)  27  28 MR. GRANT:  Yes.  My lord, it appears that I have — unless I  29 delivered Mr. Plant two copies -- I accidentally did  30 that to the Federal Crown -- it appears that I don't  31 have a court copy, but I'll arrange for a copy.  32 THE COURT:  Well, I won't be looking at it until it's been  33 marked as an exhibit.  34 MR. GRANT:  35 Q   I just ask you to refer over to the page which is  36 about the ninth page over, which is titled at the top  37 "Gitwangak School Expansion 87/88," and that goes on  38 for four pages together with an appendix.  Do you  39 recognize that document?  4 0       A   Yes, I do.  41 Q   And can you explain to the court what that document  42 was or who produced it and what it was for?  43 A   That was produced by one of the staff of the band, and  44 it was mainly to document and present to the public  45 meeting the expansion of the Gitwangak school.  46 Q   And was that -- that proposal relating to the  47 expansion of the Gitwangak school, that is the 6825  1  2  3  A  4  Q  5  6  7  8  9  10  A  11  Q  12  A  13  Q  14  A  15  MR.  GRANT  16  17  MR.  PLANT  18  19  MR.  GRANT  20  THE  COURT  21  22  23  24  25  MR.  GRANT  26  27  THE  COURT  28  MR.  GRANT  29  Q  30  31  32  33  A  34  Q  35  36  A  37  Q  38  39  A  40  41  42  43  Q  44  45  A  46  47  proposal that relates to -- that later evolved into  the school that opened in September of '87?  That's correct.  I wish to refer you to another document, which is  entitled "Gitwangak Band Housing An Overview Of The  Problems and Requirements," dated January 1986.  And  this document was a document that was delivered here  last night as a result of the request of Mr. Plant the  other day?  That's correct.  Okay.  And are you familiar with this document?  Yes, I am.  Have you seen it before?  Yes.  :  And does it reflect the housing problems in  Gitwangak as of January 1986?  :  Well, I don't know how that question is admissible  on the basis of what he's asked the witness so far.  :  I'll lay some groundwork.  :  You're short cutting the evidentiary process, Mr.  Grant.  If the witness knows, he can tell us.  And  what's the good of putting a document before him and  saying does that describe what you know?  Is that what  you're doing?  :  Well, I think I could lay -- I may be short cutting  in not laying enough groundwork.  :  All right.  And I will.  Can you explain who -- did you authorize the  preparation of this overview of problems and  requirements?  Yes, I did.  And this was when you were chief councillor at the  band?  That's correct.  And can you explain who did this and why this report  was prepared?  This report was done by myself and another staff  member of the band, and it summarizes some of the  problems in respect to the housing situation in -- in  Gitwangak.  Okay.  And can you -- can you describe what some of  those problems were as of January 1986?  The problem was the existing housing stock that we  had.  We identified some of the problems to it, some  of the structural problems.  The other one was 6826  1  2  3  4  5  6  7 MR.  8 THE  9 MR.  10  11  12  13  14  15  16 MR.  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32 MR.  33  34 THE  35 MR.  36  37 MR.  38  39  40  41  42 THE  4 3 MR.  44  45  46  47  A  PLANT  COURT  PLANT  documenting the consolidated revenue fund, that's the  $747,000 that was owing, and looking at the social  housing problem, and then a conclusion on it.  And would this overview have been presented at one of  the general meetings as part of one of the packages?  Oh, yes, it was.  Yeah.  So the witness's answer earlier was incorrect?  I'm sorry, Mr. Plant, which answer?  I have a note here that he had requested searches  for others, and this is in relation to Exhibit 577,  but this is the only one they've been able to locate,  and so as I take it, my friend is now cross-examining  his witness by saying that this document, Gitwangak  Band Housing, is another such part -- part of another  such package.  GRANT  Q  Well, I'm not cross-examining the witness, and I'll  clarify it.  Referring to Exhibit 577, if I could have it  again, please, is that the only complete package that  was located by the band?  That's correct.  Now, Mr. Plant seems to be concerned, so can you  explain was this document, January 1986 Gitwangak Band  Housing, was that -- would that have been given to  band members at a general meeting?  Yes, it would have, yeah.  And would it have been part of a larger package?  Yes.  And you have been unable to locate the larger package?  That's correct.  I'd ask for that document to be marked as an exhibit  for identification.  Mr. Plant.  That is the January 1986 Gitwangak Band Housing  Overview.  MACAULAY:  It will assist if we had some idea of the purpose  of the exhibits.  I'm not able to follow what that's  about.  Band housing is no doubt an important subject  to this witness, but I don't see quite how it fits  into this litigation.  I'm really quite mystified.  Can you assist us, Mr. Grant?  Certainly, my lord.  The witness has explained in  his evidence over the last three days about the  different problems and concerns within Gitwangak,  including the concern -- the problems of housing.  He  gave evidence that over the course of three years that  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  GRANT  COURT  GRANT  COURT  GRANT 6827  1 he was the chief councillor there have been top  2 priorities of three items.  In each of those three  3 years band housing has been one of those top  4 priorities.  He's given extensive evidence as to the  5 types of problems with the Federal Crown relating to  6 renegotiation of return of funds and -- and the need  7 for subsidized housing.  He's given extensive evidence  8 about the overcrowding on the reserve.  9 And this report is just -- is -- as its set out,  10 is entitled an overview of the problems and  11 requirements as of January 1986, and it is a factual  12 presentation of what the problems are in the houses  13 and describes those types of problems, and I submit  14 that it is relevant.  And the -- the -- again, this  15 goes to I believe it's paragraph 34 of the defence,  16 which is that the Gitksan and Wet'suwet'en Plaintiffs  17 have accepted the reserve system, have acquiesced and  18 given up their rights, and included in that, of  19 course, they have accepted the whole concept of band  20 housing.  It -- it relates directly to that issue in  21 the litigation.  The only reason I'm seeking that it  22 be marked as an exhibit for identification is because  23 my -- I want my friends to have an opportunity to  24 review it and to -- if they have any concerns at that  25 point, then we can argue that out.  But I submit that  26 relevance is not one of the issues that they would be  27 able to successfully argue.  The alternative is is  28 that I can go through the witness, and I don't -- I  29 did not wish to do it on direct evidence -- go through  30 with the witness on all of the specifics of the  31 problems in each of the houses.  But I submit that  32 that would be possibly counter-productive and not  33 necessary.  34 MR. MACAULAY:  Is this housing report intended to prove the  35 contents of -- the truth of the contents?  For  36 instance, the statement in the introduction, second  37 paragraph, first sentence reads, "The intent of the  38 paper is to clearly illustrate that the current  39 housing situation here is untenable."  Is the document  40 intended to prove that proposition?  41 THE COURT:  Well, only Mr. Grant can answer that.  I would think  42 the answer is in the affirmative, but maybe Mr. Grant  43 will assist us further in that regard.  44 MR. GRANT:  Well, I think the evidence of the witness and I  45 think that -- and the evidence of the document in  46 terms of what the problems are, that that's certainly  47 a conclusion that one can -- that one can come to. 682?  1 Whether or not one wants to come to that conclusion  2 after seeing the problems is -- is -- of course is  3 open.  But the question is is that what — why are the  4 band -- why was band housing of Gitwangak one of the  5 top priorities over the course of three years and is  6 still an urgent priority within the community.  7 THE COURT:  Well, I can visualize an issue between you  8 gentlemen.  It might be postulated, for example, that  9 the members of the Gitwangak Band were living in  10 circumstances of undescribable squalor.  I hope it's  11 not that bad.  It may be that bad.  I hope it's not.  12 And I can see defence saying that still isn't an issue  13 in this lawsuit.  On the other hand, I can see them  14 saying or having some doubt as to is the issue whether  15 the housing is that bad, very bad, bad or average and  16 having a dispute about that issue and then arguing it  17 still doesn't matter insofar as the issues in this  18 case are concerned.  I'm not sure where we're going.  19 I suppose your point, Mr. Grant, is that the condition  20 of housing on the reserve is an issue which goes to  21 acceptance or non-acceptance of the reserve system, is  22 it?  23 MR. GRANT:  Yes, it goes — it goes —  24 THE COURT:  Does it matter how bad or how good the housing is on  25 that issue?  26 MR. GRANT:  Well, defence has raised, you know, that the  27 total -- the system that has been implemented or  28 imposed, the system of the reserves established by  29 McKenna McBride and his predecessors, O'Reilly, is a  30 system that basically ends the issues between the  31 parties in this case, and that is the issues that --  32 when I say the issue, the issue that is directly  33 before this court.  And, of course, we say that's not  34 the case.  They say, well, the -- the Plaintiffs have  35 acquiesced, they've agreed, Mr. Williams has given  36 evidence of subsidized housing and all of these  37 things.  This is all part of what the defence will  38 raise as saying, well, they have -- they have accepted  39 all of these things.  But the circumstances under  40 which they have accepted them, they have accepted  41 funding for subsidized and social housing, I submit is  42 relevant to -- to reply to that point in the argument.  43 And, of course, the Defendants are raising this on  44 cross-examination.  They're not waiting for their own  45 case, which they are entitled to do.  46 THE COURT:  You say then that there is an issue as to the  47 quality of the housing on the reserve apart from the 6829  1 question of whether or not the housing itself is  2 relevant to the question of acquiescence?  3 MR. GRANT:  That's correct.  There is an issue as to the quality  4 of housing as to the circumstances under which the  5 Plaintiffs have been compelled to utilize whatever  6 services and programmes are available to them and that  7 that is not a situation of acquiescence.  8 THE COURT:  All right.  Well, with that assistance, Mr. Plant  and Mr. Macaulay, do you have any submission to make  on marking this document for identification?  MACAULAY:  Well, I have now -- at least now I know what the  purpose of it is.  It will be a matter for argument to  debate whether or not it is relevant.  Yes.  Mr. Plant.  Well, I take no position.  I would concur with Mr.  Macaulay's submission.  All right.  578 for identification.  9  10  11 MR.  12  13  14 THE  15 MR.  16  17 THE  18 THE REGISTRAR:  Thank you  19  20  21  22  2 3 MR  COURT:  PLANT:  COURT:  (EXHIBIT 578 FOR IDENTIFICATION:  January 1986  Report - "Gitwangak Band Housing")  24 THE  2 5 MR.  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  PLANT  COURT  GRANT  Q  A  A  Q  578?  Yes.  I'll be asking at the conclusion of Mr. Williams'  evidence they be marked proper after my friends have  had an opportunity to review them.  Mr. Williams, last night you indicated that you  would -- that at certain feasts other items are given  than money and food goods, such as -- I think you  indicated as an example guns and televisions.  How is  it decided what to give at a feast when these other  items are given?  You usually try and think out what the individual will  need, whether it be clothing or whether it will be  tools or whether it will be -- if it's a woman, then  you look at dishes or those -- china, those sort of  things.  So the person who's giving goes -- looks to the needs  of the person who he's going to be giving or she's  going to be giving the goods to?  That's correct.  And is it based on a special relationship?  In other  words, who -- would there be some special relationship  to you as to who would look at your needs and be  giving you things? 6830  1 A   Yes, there would.  2 Q   And what's that relationship?  3 A   They're my father's side.  4 MR. GRANT:  I'd just like to refer you to the document book for  5 a moment.  That is your document book, tab 3.  6 THE REGISTRAR:  Exhibit 559.  7 MR. GRANT:  I should say tab 2, which is exhibit —  8 THE REGISTRAR:  No, 2 is not an exhibit.  2 has not been marked,  9 my lord.  10 MR. GRANT:  I had it noted.  11 THE COURT:  Tab 2 is 565.  12 THE REGISTRAR:  I'm sorry, it is so.  13 MR. GRANT:  14 Q   565.  And in that you can see right at the front page  15 is Pauline Morgan.  Before March 12th, 1987, did  16 Pauline Morgan belong to another house and another  17 clan?  18 A   Yes, she was.  19 Q   What house and clan did she belong to?  20 A   She was taken in by the Eagle Clan in Gitwangak by the  21 House of T'ewelasxw, and at this feast she came back  22 and we named her, and this is the house where she  23 belongs now.  24 Q   Before she was taken in by the Eagle Clan, did she  25 belong to your house?  26 A   That's right.  27 Q   And why was she taken back on March 12th of '87 into  28 your house?  29 A   Because that's where she rightfully belongs.  That's  30 her blood line, in our house.  31 Q   And that was part of the decisions of the chiefs in  32 your house?  33 A   That's correct.  34 MR. GRANT:  Okay.  Those are all my questions on direct.  Just  35 before I proceed, my lord, I have a document, an  36 excerpt from a document which answers the issue -- the  37 question that you yourself raise, and it's an extract  38 which I -- I anticipate the entire report will be  39 filed ultimately as an exhibit.  It's the Penner  40 report on Indian self-government, and I have taken the  41 liberty of an extract -- this is the -- a committee  42 report, minutes of proceedings of the special  43 committee on Indian self-government dated October 12th  44 and October 20th, 1983.  And at page 15 of that report  45 they -- they charted out of the statistics they  46 received information with respect to Indian people  47 across Canada, and the second item relates to 6831  1 education and the drop-out rates as compared with  2 Indian people generally.  So I would ask that that  3 document be marked as an exhibit.  I don't anticipate  4 asking the witness any questions regarding it.  5 THE COURT:  Have your friends seen this?  6 MR. GRANT:  It has been disclosed to them.  I'm certain that  7 they have seen it.  It was disclosed some time ago.  8 MR. PLANT:  Well, I personally haven't seen it, but I don't take  9 issue with the fact that the Penner report is  10 generally known.  11 THE COURT:  Yes.  12 MR. PLANT:  I don't have any objection to my friend marking  13 this -- having this document marked as being what it  14 is.  15 THE COURT:  Yes.  16 MR. PLANT:  Whether it is evidence of the facts stated in it I'm  17 not able to say at the moment.  18 MR. MACAULAY:  Perhaps Mr. Grant —  19 THE COURT:  The drop-out rate is?  20 MR. GRANT:  Well, the drop -- yes, it indicates there under  21 "Education" that only 20 per cent of Indian children  22 stay in school to the end of the secondary level.  23 This is consistent with what Mr. Williams had  24 determined in 1981 in Gitwangak where there was an 80  25 per cent drop-out rate.  And then the comparable  26 national rate is 75 per cent.  So if it's an 80 per  27 cent drop-out rate for Indians, it's 25 per cent for  28 non-Indian.  2 9 THE COURT  3 0 MR. GRANT  31 THE COURT  32 MR. GRANT  Is this page 15 all related to the Gitwangak  9  No, it's national.  National.  Yes, it's the national rates.  33 MR. MACAULAY:  Under what grouping is this document put in?  I'm  34 not opposing marking the document, but I'd like to  35 know under what statute or rule of evidence it's being  36 invoked.  37 THE COURT:  Well, I suppose —  38 MR. GRANT:  It's a Queen's Printer publication, my lord.  It's  39 published by the Federal Crown.  40 THE COURT:  It's my fault, Mr. Macaulay.  I asked the question,  41 and the witness said, I think, that the drop-out rate  42 was, what did he say, 80 per cent.  43 MR. GRANT:  80 per cent in Gitwangak.  44 THE COURT:  Yes, in Gitwangak.  And I asked what was the  45 national rate.  But the national rate is 75 per cent  46 for all children?  47 MR. GRANT:  Yeah.  You asked what the rate was for 6832  1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  THE  MR.  THE  MR.  THE  MR.  THE  MR.  MR.  MR.  THE  THE  THE  THE  Cross-exam by Mr. Plant  non-Indians --  COURT:  Yes.  GRANT:  -- comparably.  And the -- this is sort of the  averse, so it would be -- here it says only 20 per  cent of Indian children stay in school to the end of  the secondary level, which is an 80 per cent drop-out  rate.  But the comparable national rate is 75 per  cent, so that suggests a drop-out rate at the national  level of --  COURT:  25 per cent.  GRANT:  — 25 per cent.  COURT:  As against 80 per cent?  GRANT:  Yes.  COURT: All right,  statement of  my question,  can be marked as --  MACAULAY:  I'm not objecting to it.  What I'm interested in  is whether Mr. Grant is producing this as a public  document, a Queen's -- is it the matter of the Queen's  Printer that allows it in.  GRANT:  Yes, that's the position that I would be taking.  MACAULAY:  Fine.  COURT:  All right.  This can be the next exhibit, Exhibit  579.  Exhibit?  4 0 MR.  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  Well, I'm going to take that as a  counsel based upon this report to answer  and on that basis and that basis only it  REGISTRAR:  COURT:  Yes.  REGISTRAR:  Thank you.  579.  MR. GRANT  THE COURT  MR.  THE  THE  MR.  MR.  THE  GRANT  COURT  GRANT  COURT  PLANT  MACAULAY:  COURT: Mr  (EXHIBIT 579:  Minutes of Proceedings of Special  Committee - Indian Self-Goverment (pg. 15)  :  I'll arrange for tab 14 to be -- which is an  extract, a portion of documents, to be filed in due  course.  :  Thank you, Mr. Grant.  You've completed your  examination in chief?  That's the completion of my examination in chief.  Thank you.  Subject to what I raised yesterday on Delgamuukw, my  lord.  Mr. Plant or Mr.  I'll --  The usual.  Plant.  Macaulay?  Who's going first?  CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR. PLANT: 6833  Cross-exam by Mr. Plant  1  Q  2  3  4  A  5  Q  6  7  A  8  Q  9  10  11  12  A  13  Q  14  A  15  16  17  Q  18  A  19  20  21  THE  COURT  22  MR.  PLANT  23  THE  COURT  24  MR.  PLANT  25  26  27  28  MR.  GRANT  29  MR.  PLANT  30  Q  31  32  33  34  A  35  Q  36  A  37  Q  38  39  A  40  Q  41  42  43  44  45  46  A  47  Q  I ' 11 proceed.  Mr. Williams, the Gitksan chief's name which you  now hold is Ax Gwin Desxw?  That's correct.  Number 1564.  And the name you held previously, number  1569, Ts'ixs Alalgyax?  That's correct.  Now, I believe my recollection is that you told the  court that the meaning of that name, this being the  former name, was standing behind the chief while  speaking?  That's correct.  Does it also have the meaning bluffer?  According to the Histories, Laws and Territories  booklet of Kitwancool, that's what it suggests in  there.  You don't know otherwise?  Well, I know the Gitksan word for that.  That's Ts'ixs  Alalgyax.  It means speaking behind.  That's what the  Gitksan word means.  Bluffer, b-1-u-f-f-e-r?  Excuse me.  Bluffer, b-1-u-f-f-e-r, one who bluffs.  Yes.  I just wanted to refer to Exhibit 563 for a minute.  That is tab 5 in Mr. Grant's book -- or the  Plaintiffs' book of documents and the fourth page of  that book.  :  What tab was it?  Tab 5 of your book.  The fourth page is entitled  "Appendix," and apart from the handwritten notes, this  comes from Professor Duff's book, the Histories, Laws  and Territories of the Kitwancool?  That's correct.  This is an extract from that book?  Yeah.  And the third name down, which I won't try to spell,  is the name you now hold?  That's correct.  And under the heading "Boys," about halfway down there  is your name in handwriting in the left-hand column,  and is the word that follows that, which is spelled  Z-e-x-hyphen-a-1-hyphen-a-1-hyphen-g-a-hyphen-k, is  that the name -- you understand that to be an attempt  to reproduce the name Ts'ixs Alalgyax?  That's correct.  Now, I have a book of some materials, and I would like 6834  Cross-exam by Mr. Plant  1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  A  11  Q  12  13  14  A  15  Q  16  17  A  18  Q  19  A  20  Q  21  A  22  MR.  PLANT  23  24  THE  COURT  25  MR.  PLANT  26  27  28  THE  COURT  29  MR.  GRANT  30  MR.  PLANT  31  THE  COURT  32  THE  REGIS  33  34  THE  COURT  35  36  37  38  MR.  PLANT  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  THE  COURT  to provide you with a copy, Mr. Williams, and also to  provide a copy to your lordship.  And could I ask you,  please, to turn -- turn to tab 13 of this book.  And  tab 13, my lord, is a copy of a genealogy for the  House of Haalus delivered to us by counsel for the  Plaintiffs dated January 29, 1988.  And, Mr. Williams,  your name appears on the second page of that genealogy  as the husband of Liz Morgan, an adopted member of the  House of Haalus; is that correct?  That's correct.  Underneath your name is the word Asdiiwaal,  A-s-d-i-i-w-a-a-1, and then below that in brackets  Malii.  Now, Malii is your house; is that correct?  That's correct.  Is the word Asdiiwaal -- is that a name which you have  held in your lifetime?  No, that's my brother's name.  And what is your brother's English name?  Gary Williams.  That's Gary's name?  Yes.  My lord, perhaps tab 13 could be marked for  identification.  Well, is it not being mentioned again?  It's not going to be mentioned again in the evidence  of this witness; however, it may be mentioned again in  the evidence of subsequent witnesses.  Okay.  All right.  I don't object to it being marked as an exhibit.  Oh, well then, I'll tender it as an exhibit proper.  All right.  ?RAR:  That will be Exhibit 580, my lord, tab 13 of the  grey book.  580.  Thank you.  (EXHIBIT 580 - Tab 13 - Genealogy of House of Haluus)  Now, if I could ask you now -- I've finished with  that document and indeed with that book for the time  being, Mr. Williams.  I want to ask you some questions  about the feast book re Maggie Johnson, which is at  tab 3 of the Plaintiffs' book marked Exhibit 559.  Now, at the risk of being tedious, I'm -- well, I'm  somewhat hamstrung by the fact that the pages aren't  numbered, but I'll refer to them -- the pages that I  wish to make reference to --  Mine are numbered. 6835  Cross-exam by Mr. Plant  1 MR.  2 THE  3 MR.  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17 MR.  18 THE  19  20  21 MR.  22 THE  23 THE  24 THE  2 5 MR.  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  PLANT:  -- in order by what I would take to be their number.  COURT:  Yes, all right.  PLANT:  Q   The third page, titled "Expense:  Re:  Maggie  Johnson," do you have that?  A   Oh, yeah.  Um hum, yeah.  Q   It says, "Lent me money (Blanket)"?  A   Yeah, I've got that.  Q   What is the significance in that context of the  reference to a blanket?  A   Blanket is Segwila.  That's a terminology that's used  when -- when your Wilksiwitxw lends money to an  individual that's going to hold a feast.  And that's  what this page is, and that's in connection to Ronnie  Johnson.  That's who gave Ronnie Johnson money and  helped him when we had a feast.  PLANT:  Does your lordship require -- there were two words.  COURT:  No, I'm just not sure that I captured what you said.  You say that this is money that was lent by Johnny  Johnson's --  Lent to Ronnie Johnson.  To Ronnie Johnson.  To Ronnie Johnson by his Wilksiwitxw?  That's correct.  PLANT:  WITNESS  COURT:  WITNESS  PLANT:  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  A  And the lending of that money is described as Segwila?  That's correct.  Is it as simple as this, is Segwila another word for  blanket?  That's an English term, yes.  So when the Gitksan are describing the process which  in Gitksan language is known as Segwila, they often  refer to it as the blanket?  Yes, just a simple English term for it.  Now, why was it that Ronnie Johnson was being lent  money?  Why wasn't he being lent money?  Why was Ronnie lent money?  And maybe I could just put  that another way.  Did he take your grandmother's  name?  No, he didn't.  He was one of the head chiefs in the  House of Malii.  Did he have a particular responsibility in the feast  for Maggie Johnson which gave rise to this need to  lend him money?  That's Ronnie's grandmother.  Maggie was Ronnie's  grandmother. 6836  1  Q  2  3  4  A  5  6  7  8  9  10  Q  11  12  A  13  14  Q  15  16  A  17  18  19  Q  20  21  22  A  23  Q  24  25  A  26  Q  27  28  A  29  Q  30  A  31  32  33  34  35  36  Q  37  38  A  39  Q  40  41  42  A  43  Q  44  45  46  47  Cross-exam by Mr. Plant  And was the money lent to him, therefore, to assist  him in raising the funds necessary to put on the  feast?  Partly.  And that's the law in our -- in our -- in our  culture, is that you don't have to ask for this money,  it's just automatic that your Wilksiwitxw -- there's a  big feast.  Like with -- this Maggie Johnson was a big  chief in our house.  You don't ask for it, it's just  given to you.  Was Ronnie the -- and the reason Ronnie got the money  was because Maggie was his grandmother?  And that we were going to have a feast.  And this is  the law as well.  I guess my question is why Ronnie as opposed to some  other member of the house?  Oh, everybody else.  I was given money as well, and my  mother was given money just the same process as this  one.  Oh, okay.  Others were given money.  This page here is  a record of the money which was lent to Ronnie  Johnson?  That's correct.  And, as I recall, it was Ronnie's wife, Sylvia, who  made the entries in this book?  That's correct.  Now, you described in your evidence that when this  money is eventually repaid it is repaid with interest?  That's correct.  How is the interest calculated?  There's no real formula to -- to interest rates or --  it's -- if -- you probably see on here say for Lily  Jackson right on the bottom there, there's $20, and he  gave $5 on top of it, and so has the other ones like  Roddy Johnson, $20 plus $5.  There's no real formula  to it, but it's a top-up.  Does it have any relationship to the time taken to  repay the funds?  No, it doesn't.  And would I be correct in assuming that the column on  the right refers to the date on which the funds were  repaid?  That's correct.  Now, turning to page 9 of this document, which follows  the page "Maggie Johnson Memorial" and is a list of  matters agreed upon -- it's part of a list of matters  agreed upon at a meeting of house members at Fred  Johnson's house? 6837  Club.  9  Cross-exam by Mr. Plant  1 A   That's correct.  2 Q   Under item 5, what is the K.S.F.C.  3 A   It's the name of a club, a sports club in Gitwangak.  4 It stands for Kitwanga Spring Fields Sports  5 THE COURT:  Spring Field?  6 THE WITNESS:  Yeah, Spring Field Sports Club.  Spring Field  7 Club, I guess.  8 THE COURT:  The "F"?  9 THE WITNESS:  The "F" is for field club, yeah.  10 MR. PLANT:  11 Q   And the Kitwanga Luckies?  12 A   That's the name of a Softball team.  13 Q   And does the list of the three -- well -- two entities  14 and one person, Vern Hobenshield being the person, are  15 those the people who were to be responsible for  16 graveyard cleaning?  17 A   Yes, they were.  18 Q   Now, turning over to page 11, the first line at the  19 top of page 11 is "Pall Bearers to House"?  2 0 A   Um hum.  21 Q   Do you see that?  22 A   Yes.  23 Q   And then the second entry, "Monday Nite Watchers - Roy  24 Harris."  Roy Harris is a chief in the Frog Clan?  25 A   That's correct.  26 Q   What is the task performed by a night watcher?  27 A  What we do is, when somebody dies, is that we bring  28 them back to the community, and -- and they're  29 usually -- the casket is put into the home, and when  30 people leave at night, they -- there is nobody around,  31 and they sit up and just be with the -- with the  32 casket all night.  33 Q   Is there some particular reason why the casket is  34 watched?  35 A   Yes, just to keep watch that nobody just comes in  36 and -- just to keep the watch on the casket, who comes  37 in and who wants to see the casket and who wants to --  38 that's mainly to keep a eye on it.  39 Q   Make sure that no one does anything untoward?  40 A   That's correct.  41 Q   Turning the page over to "Hawaal - Family Expense,"  42 there are three columns on the right-hand side of that  43 page, and the column on the left is headed "Misc.",  44 M-i-s-c, for miscellaneous?  45 A   Yes.  46 Q   And does that refer to the various goods as opposed to  47 cash which are contributed by the family or house or 683?  1  2  A  3  Q  4  5  6  7  8  A  9  Q  10  11  12  A  13  Q  14  15  A  16  Q  17  A  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  Q  25  26  A  27  Q  28  29  A  30  Q  31  A  32  Q  33  34  A  35  36  37  Q  38  39  40  41  A  42  Q  43  44  A  45  Q  46  47  Cross-exam by Mr. Plant  clan members at the feast?  That's right.  And you have described in your evidence about some of  these goods.  As I recall, it may have been yesterday  you said that there are occasions where T.V. sets or  expensive shotguns might be given.  Would that be  something that would come under this heading?  That's correct.  And there would be items such as groceries, and food  stuffs, and house supplies, blankets, towels, that  kind of thing?  Yes.  Sometimes perhaps someone would have made something  that might come under that heading?  Yes.  How are the values determined?  The values are determined by -- like I'll give you an  example of my mother.  She'll -- she will get dishes  or -- it's mainly based on store-bought items.  And  like a box of apples, it's based on the actual value.  A pot of soup is based on what you buy soup in the  store for times the number of bowls in a pot of soup.  That's how it's —  Now, as I understand it, the contributions are  announced during the course of the feast?  Oh, yes.  Yes, they are.  And does that include the -- the cash and the value of  the miscellaneous contributions?  Yes, it is .  And the record is kept at that time?  Yes.  Did you keep your own record of the contributions made  at Maggie Johnson's feast?  They were all incorporated in here.  I mainly -- I  mainly brought apples and oranges and bread, crackers.  That's my own thing there, $69.  Actually, I was referring more to the record-keeping  function, that is to say, keeping track of the amounts  contributed.  Did you keep your own record of the  amounts kept?  Oh, yes, yeah.  And is this a -- the -- this is the record then of --  kept by Sylvia Johnson?  Yes.  And you told us that the figures here were correct  during the course of your evidence.  How are you able  to determine that? 6839  1  A  2  3  4  5  6  Q  7  8  9  A  10  Q  11  A  12  13  14  15  16  17  Q  18  19  A  20  Q  21  22  23  24  A  25  Q  26  A  27  Q  28  29  A  30  Q  31  A  32  Q  33  34  35  36  37  38  A  39  Q  40  41  42  A  43  Q  44  A  45  Q  46  A  4 7 MR.  PLANT  Cross-exam by Mr. Plant  We have receipts for -- like if I buy apples or  oranges, I usually try and keep my receipts.  And my  mother would do the same thing.  When they buy china  or any other gifts, they try and keep records of them,  the receipts from the stores.  And after the fact, that is to say, after the feast,  you take care to ensure that the record kept of the  contributions is correct?  Yes.  And you have your own record of those contributions?  No, I don't really keep it.  I -- what you do is you  announce it at the feast, what you've done, how much  your -- how much you've contributed say in  miscellaneous.  You publicly announce it.  Now, I  don't really keep all my receipts for it.  I've done  my function already.  I've announced it.  And were you watching Sylvia when she was writing this  down?  I believe so.  I think sometimes I watched it.  So you may have as it was going -- as the amounts were  being announced, you may have actually sort of been  looking over her shoulder to make sure that she was  writing it down correctly?  Maybe, yeah.  And maybe not?  Yeah, maybe not.  And do you recall today whether you did that in the  case of the feast of Maggie Johnson?  Yes.  And did you?  Yes.  Now, as I understood part of your evidence, there is a  law in the feast hall -- or it may not be a law, it  may be something less than a law -- that Malii and the  two chiefs who ranked ahead of you in the house always  contribute more money or goods than you because they  have a higher rank, and you respect that?  That's correct.  Now, the chiefs before you, that is to say, the chiefs  who ranked higher than you in your house, would be  Malii?  Um hum, yes.  Niislaganoos?  Yes.  And who else?  Galii.  :  Galii. 6840  Cross-exam by Mr. Plant  1 THE  COURT  2 MR.  PLANT  3 THE  COURT  4 MR.  PLANT  5  Q  6  7  A  8  Q  9  10  A  11  Q  12  13  14  15  A  16  17  Q  18  19  20  21  A  22  Q  23  A  24  Q  25  A  26  Q  27  A  28  Q  29  30  31  32  A  33  Q  34  A  35  Q  36  37  A  38  Q  39  40  41  A  42  Q  43  44  45  A  46  Q  47  I didn't get the second name.  Niislaganoos is 1566, and Galii is 1565.  Thank you.  Now, at the time of Maggie Johnson's death in 1983 did  Bob Bright hold the name Niislaganoos?  That's correct.  Now, my reading of this page 12, Bob Bright's name is  the third from the bottom.  Do you see that?  Yes.  As I calculate the figures on this page 12, his was  the fifth highest contribution.  Would that be in  accordance -- would that be correct according to  your --  Well, I've never looked at all the figures, so it may  be correct.  Well, actually, let's just do that quickly so there's  not much dispute about that.  It appears to me to be  that Marie Hobenshield had the highest contribution on  this page of $4,610?  Yes.  And what is her title within the house?  She's a member of the house, House of Malii.  Does she have a chief's name?  I can't -- yes, she does.  Do you remember what it is?  I can't remember offhand right now.  Then, according to my calculations, the name below  Marie, Esther Williams, she -- if I could put it this  way, she comes in at $3,000, which appears to be the  second highest total on that page?  Yes.  And is Esther Williams your mother?  That's correct.  The third highest contribution on that page would be  Gordon Johnson at $1,377 --  Um hum.  -- and 69 cents?  And he is and was at the time of this feast the  holder of the name Malii?  That's correct.  Then carrying on down, the sixth name, Ronnie Johnson,  $1,185, that appears to be the fourth highest figure  on the page?  Yes.  And then the last number actually recorded on the page  is the number for Bob Bright of $967, so that would 6841  1  2  3  4  A  5  Q  6  7  8  A  9  Q  10  11  12  13  A  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  Q  23  24  A  25  Q  26  27  28  29  A  30  Q  31  32  33  34  35  A  36  Q  37  38  A  39  Q  40  A  41  Q  42  43  44  45  46  A  47  Q  Cross-exam by Mr. Plant  make it the fifth highest on this page, by my  calculations, fifth highest contribution under this  heading.  Do you agree with me?  Yes.  So what you described as your practice in making sure  that you were the third or fourth highest  contributor --  Yeah.  Do you say that that's a law and, therefore, that this  law was not followed in this case, or is there some  other explanation for this order of contributions in  terms of their size?  Well, it mainly reflects on the cash.  If you look at  the cash part of it -- you know -- they're about even.  And Marie was -- Marie was the one that — that wanted  to pay for the casket, and she did that.  My mother  was -- those were the good items that she put forward,  and that's why her -- her amount is quite high.  Those  are some of the reasons why it's that, but mainly on  cash.  You see, if you see that, all of them didn't  exceed Gordon.  In fact, Bob Bright's would be about the fourth if we  were dealing with cash, wouldn't he?  Yes.  And so what you characterized as the practice that you  followed in terms of the ranking or the size of  contributions relates more to cash contributions than  to the total?  Correct, yeah.  Now, turning over two pages to a page entitled  "Hawaal," H-a-w-a-a-1, the first name here is Marie  Russell.  My recollection is you've said that these  pages were mainly the other wolves, i.e., that is,  persons other than your own house members?  That's correct.  Peter Turley's name, which is the about ninth  letter -- ninth name down, Peter Turley is Giila'wa?  That's correct.  He is an eagle chief?  Yes.  We've heard evidence in this trial about the  relationship between the wolves and the eagles of  Gitwangak.  The wolves and the eagles work together at  feasts.  Does that apply also in respect of the wolves  of Kitwancool?  I don't think so.  I beg your pardon? 6842  1  A  2  Q  3  4  5  6  7  8  A  9  Q  10  11  12  13  A  14  15  Q  16  17  18  19  A  20  Q  21  22  A  23  Q  24  A  25  Q  26  27  A  28  Q  29  A  30  Q  31  A  32  Q  33  34  A  35  Q  36  A  37 MR.  PLANT  38 THE  INTER  39 THE  COURT  4 0 MR.  PLANT  41  Q  42  43  A  44  Q  45  46  A  47  Q  Cross-exam by Mr. Plant  I don't think so.  Now, turning the page over to what I would have as  page 15, the page with the name Mary Brown at the top,  the total at the bottom, $24,080, appears to be the  sum of the two subtotals immediately above it.  One is  the family total, $21,420.  Can you tell me where that  sum comes from?  Which sum is that, the 24,000?  Actually, it's the $21,000 figure that I'm interested  in.  Back at page 13 the total is 19,440.  So is there  some other item that's brought into this calculation  that's not listed in the -- in the list?  I really don't know.  I haven't really looked at it  that much to see where the difference was.  If I could just ask you to turn over to page 19 then.  The last entry on page 19 reads Indian song, Solomon  Marsden, $30, the top line is Wednesday, Barney  Morgan?  Oh, okay.  And it begins -- it's the second page of the category  "Paid at Feast"?  Yes.  And do you have that entry there?  Yes.  Solomon Marsden is a chief of the Frog Clan of  Kitwancool?  That's correct.  Is he the -- the high chief of the Frog Clan or --  He's one of the high chiefs of the Frog Clan.  One of them?  Yeah.  The Indian song, does that refer to the lament of the  House of Malii?  That's correct.  There is a Gitksan term for that, Limx'ooy?  Yeah.  :  I'm afraid I don't have the spelling for that.  URETER:  L-i-m-x-stop-o-o-y.  :  Thank you.  And is this song or lament -- well, first, is it -- is  it part of the adaawk of Malii?  That's right.  And is it, therefore, the property of the House of  Malii?  That's right.  Does it -- well, what I wanted to ask you really is 6843  1  2  3  4  5  6  A  7  8  9  10  11  Q  12  13  14  A  15  Q  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  A  23  Q  24  25  A  26  Q  27  28  29  30  31  32  A  33  Q  34  A  35  36  37  Q  38  39  A  40  Q  41  A  42  Q  43  44  45  46  47  Cross-exam by Mr. Plant  this:  Here's an instance where the House of Malii has  paid someone from another clan to sing Malii's song at  the -- at a feast for the House of Malii.  How does  that -- what are the Gitksan laws that cause that to  come into play?  It's just like being commissioned.  You ask somebody  to -- just like all the others, like the pallbearers,  people that dig the grave, people that handle the  grave.  If you ask somebody to do something, then you  just pay them, and that's what happened here.  And then this happens also with respect to carving  totem poles?  Someone from another house or clan may  be commissioned to carve a totem pole?  That's correct.  Now, this may be just going over ground that you've  covered when you were asked -- answering Mr. Grant's  questions yesterday, but of the total $24,000 figure  that is contributions made by the wolves at this  feast, most of the goods and money would be  distributed to members of the Gitksan community; is  that fair to say?  To the guests of that feast hall, yeah.  Who would, generally speaking, be Gitksan or perhaps  in some cases Wet'suwet'en or Nisga'a people?  Yes.  And in due course those guests would be called upon  because of a death in their family to host a feast and  the -- they would be distributing to the guests at  their feast perhaps equal amounts of money or other  gifts and so on?  I probably haven't made myself very  clear.  I don't know what your question is.  Yes.  But they do the same thing.  You know, they bring in  all the food, they bring in all the money, and it goes  right back to their guests in that feast hall.  So there's kind of an exchange that works back and  forth —  That's right.  -- within the community?  Is that right?  Yeah.  Now, those are all the questions I wanted to ask you  about the Maggie Johnson feast book.  I wanted to ask  you about the feast book at tab 4, which is Exhibit  562.  And this is entitled "Feast Book Re Robert  Bright."  And the third page of that I have a question  to ask you about.  The heading of the third page is 6844  Cross-exam by Mr. Plant  1 "Robert Bright Settlement Feast."  What is a  2 Settlement Feast?  3 A  A Settlement Feast is when somebody dies that -- that  4 we, as the house group of Malii, ask certain  5 individuals to -- to purchase a coffin, purchase the  6 clothing, and every task that's been performed for  7 that funeral, we make sure we document that, and the  8 name passes -- the name of this individual, Robert  9 Bright, then passes on, and that's -- and we pay for  10 them.  We settle with them, the ones we've asked to  11 perform certain tasks.  12 Q   Is the Settlement Feast another name for a Funeral  13 Feast —  14 A   Yes.  15 Q   -- or are they different?  16 A   They're the same thing.  17 MR. PLANT:  Now, those are all the questions I wanted to ask you  18 about this feast book.  19 THE COURT:  Would that be the same thing as the Headstone Feast  20 or does that always come later?  21 THE WITNESS:  That — that comes later.  22 MR. PLANT:  23 Q   And as I understand your evidence, there is another  24 feast that's part of this cycle.  That's the feast  25 that's held after the fence is erected around the  26 gravestone or around the grave site?  27 A   Yes.  2 8 THE COURT:  Would they be at the same time?  29 THE WITNESS:  No, they wouldn't.  What you do at a Funeral Feast  30 or Settlement Feast is that you ensure that you have  31 appointed an individual to -- to be commissioned to  32 undertake the task of -- of erecting a fence, and once  33 he's finished, you have another feast to pay him for  34 his services.  35 THE COURT:  Okay.  3 6 MR. PLANT:  37 Q   Now, when Mr. Grant was asking you questions about the  38 adaawk of your House, you -- he asked you whether you  39 had been taught it, and you said you had, and you said  40 that one of the -- well, I'll just read the answer you  41 gave, actually, at page 6673.  The question was:  42  4 3 "By whom?"  44  45 And then you said:  46  47 "I've heard it from Malii, Gordon 6845  Cross-exam by Mr. Plant  1 Johnson, I've heard it from my  2 grandfather and my grandmother, and  3 I've listened to tape recordings of  4 Fred Good, and I've also read things  5 like the History, Laws and  6 Territories of Kitwancool, and  7 Barbeau's book of the upper  8 totem-poles of the Upper skeena, I  9 believe."  10  11 Your reference there to Barbeau's book was the book  12 titled "Totem Poles of the Gitksan, Upper Skeena  13 River, British Columbia"?  14 A   Yes.  15 Q   Now, I produced an extract from that book, tab 8 of my  16 book of documents.  17 A   Tab 8?  18 Q   Yes.  Now, the first three pages of tab 8 are an  19 extract from the portion of the book that deals with  20 the poles of the wolf phratry, p-h-r-a-t-r-y, and, in  21 particular, the pole -- the poles of Malii at  22 Kitwancool, correct?  23 A   Correct, yeah.  24 Q   And when you said that you had learned -- one of the  25 sources that you had taken your knowledge of the  26 adaawk of Malii from was this book, or Barbeau's book,  27 you were referring to this particular part of the  28 book, among others?  29 A   Yes.  30 Q   And the first paragraph, Owners,  31  32 "Malee belongs to the Prairie... clan of the  33 Wolf phratry.  He is the present head of the  34 family at Gitwinlkul which was established  35 long ago among the People-of-the-foothill-  36 a member of..."  37  38 And then I don't know what that reference is there.  39 K-a-hyphen-u-g-w-a-i-t-apostrophe-s household.  40  41 "...Ka-ugwait's household."  42  43 Do you know who that is a reference to?  44 A   I can't really understand the word.  45 Q   From your experience reading Mr. -- Professor's  46 Barbeau's book, you'd agree that his spellings don't  47 necessarily conform to the spellings that are used 6846  1  2  A  3  Q  4  5  A  6  Q  7  8  9  10  11  A  12  Q  13  14  15  16  17  A  18  19  Q  20  21  A  22  Q  23  24  25  26  A  27  28  29  30  Q  31  32  A  33  Q  34  35  36  A  37  Q  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  Cross-exam by Mr. Plant  nowadays?  That's correct.  Sometimes it's an intellectual challenge to try and  figure out who he's talking about?  That's correct.  Well, carrying on:  "His foremost relatives abroad, as we will  see...are Spawrh of Gitenmaks"?  Yes.  "Skateen of Gitlarhdamks on the Nass..."  Is that name there, Skateen, S-k-a-t-e-e-n --  I've only heard of Spookw.  I've heard of Spookw, but  I've never heard of Skateen.  And then the last name is "Khleem-larhae and other  subsidiary households of Kispayuaks"?  Yes, I've heard of Kliiyemlaxhaa.  And have you heard of the connection or a connection  between the family of Kliiyemlaxhaa and the family or  house, I should say -- the House of Kliiyemlaxhaa and  the House of Malii?  Yes, I've heard Martha Brown talk about being related  to Malii.  And Gyolugyet was another one that was  related to -- to Malii.  I've heard them talk about  it.  Martha Brown, prior to her death, held the name  Kliiyemlaxhaa?  That's correct.  Now, turning over to page 109, under the heading  "Origin," the first paragraph there restates the --  part of the adaawk of Malii?  Which one is that one?  The paragraph that begins:  "The Grizzly or the White Bear emblems and  the symbolic figure of the ancestress  Disappeared, illustrate a myth that is given  as a reason for their possession."  And recognizing that Dr. Barbeau used the term "myth"  rather than the term "adaawk" or "history," the story  that's set out after that, is that -- is that the  adaawk of Malii or part of the adaawk of Malii as you 6847  Cross-exam by Mr. Plant  1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  3 8 MR.  39 THE  4 0 MR.  41 THE  42 THE  43 THE  4 4 MR.  45  46  47  know it?  A   Yes.  The grizzly bear, yes.  Q   Following I guess it would be the third paragraph  under the heading of "Origin" there's a paragraph that  begins:  "A feud broke out soon after between the two  brothers ..."  And I won't try to pronounce them, but it goes on:  "...which caused the disruption of the  family, as we have seen..."  And the reference there is to another part of the  book.  And you told us, as I recall in your evidence,  something about how the -- parts of the House of Malii  went different directions?  A   That's right.  Q   And this is a reference to that split?  A   That's right.  Q   Now, you've told us in your evidence that you've  worked as a land claims researcher for the Tribal  Council?  A   Yes.  Q   And you've learned from others, such as your  grandfather, Fred Johnson, of the history of the  Gitksan as it's told in their adaawk?  A   That's correct.  Q   You told us the story of one of the crests on the  poles in Gitwangak, the canoe, the Haida Princess?  Sorry, it may not have been a Haida Princess, but the  story about the woman who was kidnaped and who  eventually came back across the strait in a canoe?  A   Yes.  Q   Okay.  That was from the adaawk of which house?  A  Wii Hlengwax.  PLANT:  As part of your work --  COURT:  I didn't get that name.  PLANT:  Oh, excuse me.  COURT:  House of?  INTERPRETER:  76.  COURT:  Thank you.  Sorry, Mr. Plant.  PLANT:  Q   As part of your work as a land claims researcher,  before and after you've listened to the adaawk that  have been told to you by your elders and those that 6848  Cross-exam by Mr. Plant  1 have been recorded in Barbeau's book, other sources?  2 A   Yes.  3 Q   And the Tribal Council has recorded some of the  4 Gitksan adaawks in writing?  5 A   Yes.  6 Q   And you've had occasion to refer to those?  7 A   Not all of them, no.  I mainly was involved in the  8 territory, helping with -- Neil with the territorial  9 mapping.  I haven't been too involved with the adaawk.  10 Just some of the ones that personally interested me  11 and what I've heard from my grandmother and my  12 grandfather.  13 Q   So outside your function as an employed researcher,  14 you've also got a personal interest in learning the  15 history of the Gitksan people?  16 A   Yes.  17 Q   And by that I mean not only the history of your own  18 house, but of other houses, clans?  19 A   Yes.  20 MR. PLANT:  With that do you mind -- could we turn to the next  21 page of the document at tab 8, page -- tab 8 of my  22 book.  I wonder, my lord.  It would be convenient.  23 THE COURT:  All right.  We'll do that now.  Thank you.  24 THE REGISTRAR:  Order in court.  This court will recess.  25  26 (PROCEEDING ADJOURNED AT 11:15 A.M.)  27  28  29 I hereby certify the foregoing to be  30 a true and accurate transcript of the  31 proceedings herein to the best of my  32 skill and ability.  33  34  35  36 Leanna Smith  37 Official Reporter  38 United Reporting Service Ltd.  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47 (PROCEEDINGS RESUMED PURSUANT TO MORNING RECESS) 6849  G. Williams (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Plant  1  2 THE REGISTRAR:  Order in court.  3 THE COURT:  Mr. Plant.  4 CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR. PLANT:  5 Q    Before we broke, Mr. Williams, I was about to ask  6 you to refer to the extract from the Barbeau book at  7 tab 8, my book of documents, which reproduces pages  8 175 to 177 of that book.  Under the heading which  9 appears close to the page of 175, Origins of the  10 Crests Explained in Myths (adaawk) and Traditions.  11 When you reviewed or read this book in the past, Mr.  12 Williams, have you had occasion to read these pages?  13 A    No, I haven't.  I have never read this page.  I have  14 only read some of the one sections pertaining to  15 certain houses, but I don't think I read this section  16 of it.  17 Q    What this does or what this purports to be is a  18 summary of origins of crests which are described in  19 the adaawk.  And perhaps I could take you through some  20 of them and see if they are familiar to you.  Turning  21 over the page at the top of page 176 the second item  22 there:  "The Eagle Mawdzeks appeared in a 'vision'."  23 That's attributed to Lelt.  Are you familiar with that  24 crest?  25 A    Which one is that one?  26 MR. PLANT:  That's the second from the top on page 176.  27 THE COURT:  Your question of the witness is has he heard of that  28 crest?  2 9 MR. PLANT:  30 Q    Yes.  31 A    I don't understand the third word over there the  32 Eagle.  33 Q    Have you heard of -- excuse me?  34 A    The third word there, I can't pronounce that.  I  35 can't really understand that word.  36 Q    All right.  If we were to delete that word, can you  37 say from your knowledge whether the adaawk of Lelt has  38 a story of how Lelt acquired a crest from the  39 appearance in a vision of an eagle?  40 A    No, I haven't heard that.  41 Q    Carrying down under the subheading sub (b) on page  42 176, the first item there:  43  44 "The Supernatural Beaver, the chief of the  45 Beavers, appeared under human form.  Was  46 followed to a lake, his home, near Kitsalas  47 canyon; the lake was drained and he was 6850  1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  A  9  Q  10  11  A  12  13  Q  14  A  15  16  Q  17  18  A  19  20  Q  21  A  22  23  24  Q  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  A  34  35  Q  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  A  44  Q  45  A  46  Q  47  A  G. Williams (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Plant  killed, his unusual features being reproduced  on the crest."  Now, recognizing that that is probably a very short  compression of what is undoubtedly a long story, can  you identify that as being the origin of a crest of  the Eagles of Kitwanga?  Yes, I have heard of it, yes.  And do you know which house of the Eagle Clan that  belongs to?  It has got Sqayaen on here, Sqayaen, Eagle, Kitwanga  in brackets there.  Yes, the word in brackets is S-Q-A-Y-A-E-N?  Yes, it is Sqayaen. It is one of the Eagle chiefs  in Kitwanga.  Does he have his own house or is he a chief in  another house?  I think she is in one of the houses, the Eagle  houses.  You say "she".  Do you know who holds that name?  I believe it is Emily Daniels, Sqayaen. No, maybe  Emily Daniels or Vernon Smith's mother. I am pretty  sure it is Vernon Smith's mother.  Carrying on down page 176, the fifth item under  subparagraph (b):  "The White-groundhog, killed in the course of  a supernatural adventure."  That's also attributed to Lelt, Kitwanga.  Are you  familiar with that crest, the White-groundhog crest  and the origin of that crest?  No, I am not familiar with that one. No, I am not  familiar with it.  The one after that described as:  "The White-marten, a supernatural being,  killed (Qawq, Eagle, Kitwanga)."  Qawk or Sakum Higookw, the Eagle Clan of Kitwanga.  Are you familiar with that crest and its relationship  to the Eagle Clan?  No, I'm not.  I am just familiar with Sakum Higookw.  What you mean is you know what Sakum Higookw is?  That's right.  Do you know any part of the adaawk of Sakum Higookw?  Just very briefly what I have heard, they come from 6851  G. Williams (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Plant  1  2  3  4  5  6 THE  7 THE  8 THE  9 MR.  10  11  12  13 MR.  14 THE  15  16 THE  17 THE  18 MR.  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30 THE  31  32  33 MR.  34  35 THE  3 6 MR.  37 THE  3 8 MR.  39 THE  4 0 MR.  41 THE  42 MR.  43 THE  4 4 MR.  45  4 6 THE  47  the Alaska area and there was -- there was feuding and  I believe there was fighting over a cave.  And they  moved down towards Prince Rupert and they eventually  ended up at Xsi gwin K'aat, that is at the village  at —  COURT:  I'm sorry, what is the name?  WITNESS:  Xsi gwin K'aat?  COURT:  I need a spelling for that, please.  PLANT:  Q    That's the village on the Skeena?  A    Yes, at the mouth of Fiddler Creek where it empties  into the Skeena.  PLANT:  Fiddler Creek.  COURT:  Yes, but the reporter needs the spelling of the  word.  TRANSLATOR:  It is number 316.  COURT:  Thank you.  PLANT:  Carrying on down to the third item from the bottom  of the page and the first word there is:  "'Neegyamks or Frog-woman and the  Flying-frogs."  And then in brackets:  "(Kweenu, Hlengwah, Laelt, Harhu, etc;  Frog-Raven; Gitwinlkul, Kitwanga, Kispayaks)"  Are you familiar with that crest?  COURT:  I'm sorry, Mr. Plant, when you read a mouthful like  that we have got to take it in bites or the reporter  will never get it down.  PLANT:  I am happy to.  I'm sorry.  Perhaps I should give  the spellings as they appear in the text.  COURT:  I think so.  PLANT:  Kweenu, K-W-E-E-N-U.  COURT:  I think you had better start again, Mr. Plant.  PLANT:  Then to start again —  COURT:  I'm sorry, where are you reading from?  PLANT:  The third item at the bottom of the page.  COURT:  In (b)?  Not in section (b)?  PLANT:  No, from the bottom of the page now.  COURT:  Yes, all right.  Start again then.  PLANT:  I am going to hand the court reporter a copy of  page.  COURT:  As a matter of fact, that should be done with all  documents that are going to be used extensively. 6852  G. Williams (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Plant  1 MR. PLANT:  2  Q  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  A  12  Q  13  A  14  Q  15  A  16  Q  17  18  A  19  Q  20  A  21  Q  22  23  A  24  Q  25  26  27  A  28  Q  29  30  31  32  A  33  Q  34  35  36  A  37  38  39  40  Q  41  A  42 MR.  PLANT  43  44  45  46  47  The item I am referring to is the third item at the  bottom of the page which has 176 at the top:  "'Neegyamks or Frog-woman and the Flying-frogs  (Kweenu, Hlengwal, Lealt, Harhu, etc;  Frog-Raven; Gitwinlkul, Kitwanga, Kispayaks)"  That's the end of the parentheses.  Now, you  understand Hlengwal in that context, Mr. Williams?  Yes.  Hlengwal?  Yes.  Chief of the Frog Clan?  Yes.  And Lealt of course is the name held by Fred  Johnson?  Yes.  Who is of the Frog clan?  Yes.  Have you heard that clan referred to in your  lifetime as the Frog-raven clan?  I have just heard of the Frog.  And then the three words which follow the word  Frog-Raven, Gitwinlkul, that is the village of which  Malii is a chief?  Yes.  Kitwanga, of course,we know.  And then the last word  Kispayaks is the name as the village of Kispiox,  K-I-S-P-I-O-X, as it is now described on government  maps?  Yes.  Now, with that, Mr. Williams, does the crest of  Frog-woman or 'Neegyamks or Flying-frogs, are those  crests familiar with you?  I have heard of the Flying-frogs, but the  Frog-woman -- no, I don't think I have heard the  Frog-woman.  I have heard a bit about the  Flying-frogs.  Would that be from Fred Johnson?  Yes.  :  And, My Lord, I tender the first page of tab 8 as  the cover page, pages marked 108 and 109 at the top as  exhibits proper.  I am happy to include page 110, but  I have made no reference to it and it doesn't really  detract from or add to anything to the two preceding  pages. 6853  G. Williams (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Plant  1  THE  COURT  2  MR.  GRANT  3  4  5  MR.  PLANT  6  7  8  9  10  MR.  GRANT  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  THE  COURT  18  MR.  GRANT  19  20  21  22  23  24  MR.  PLANT  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  THE  COURT  32  MR.  PLANT  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  THE  COURT  44  45  46  47  MR.  GRANT  :  Mr. Grant?  : Yeah, I just wish to clarify one point, My Lord, and  that is whether or not my friend is tendering this for  the truth of the contents stated therein.  :  This witness has answered certain questions and  adopted certain passages from these pages and on that  basis I say that they should be marked as exhibits.  I  am not tendering this as part of my case, it is a  document which can be proved on cross-examination.  :  Well, again I agree that -- I agree that the witness  has been referred to certain things and asked  questions about them and if my friend just wants to  mark it as an exhibit because it is something that the  witness has referred to.  I don't agree that the  witness has necessarily adopted some of the  statements.  :  He said he heard of some of these things.  :  He said he heard of some of them and he hasn't  adopted -- in fact, a very lengthy part was put to him  and that was part of an adaawk and whether or not it  was accurate was not put to him.  That's why I want to  know if my friends is tendering this for the truth of  the contents therein.  :  First of all, I draw the distinction between the  first part of the extract and the second part.  The  first part is House of Malii, which is page 108, 109  and 110 and my recollection of the witness' evidence  is that certain parts of that extract were actually  adopted by the witness and that's the only part I am  tendering at the moment.  :  I am not sure that he has adopted anything.  :  Well, my recollection, My lord, was I asked him if  the paragraph under the heading Origin was the -- the  first long paragraph was part of the adaawk of his  house and he said, "Yes".  And then I asked him about  the third paragraph, whether that was a description of  the split in the house which he had referred to in his  evidence.  My lord, the primary purpose for adducing  this is to put in context and to give flesh to the  witness' statement on his -- during his examination in  chief that he had learned from this book when he was  being taught the adaawk of his house.  :  Well, Mr. Grant, are you agreeing that these  passages may be marked conditional upon it being proof  of the truth of the facts stated or is that merely an  inquiry on your part?  :  It's an inquiry. 6854  G. Williams (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Plant  1 THE COURT:  Yes.  2 MR. GRANT:  I don't have the answer.  And the one point I would  3 like to clarify is that the evidence of the witness on  4 direct that my friend refers to is when he was asked:  5 Have you been taught the adaawk of your house and  6 asked by whom and he gives the name of the people.  He  7 said I have heard it from Malii, I have heard it from  8 my grandmother and grandfather and I have listened to  9 a tape recording of Fred Good.  And I have also read  10 things like Histories, Territories, and Laws of  11 Kitwancool Barbeau's Totem Poles of the Upper Skeena,  12 I believe.  He has not -- in my view, he did not say  13 that he learned this adaawk from this book.  And  14 that's why I am trying to clarify what my friend --  15 THE COURT:  He did say that that was part of the source of his  16 knowledge of the adaawk of his house and that's what  17 troubles me because that may well make it  18 inadmissible.  19 MR. GRANT:  Well, he has listed a large number of people that he  20 has learned the adaawk from.  21 THE COURT:  He said tapes and he has also mentioned living  22 people.  And if we don't have a clear understanding of  23 what this means now, we are certainly going to have an  24 argument about it later.  25 MR. GRANT:  Well, yes.  I mean the point I am trying to make and  26 I wish my friend would be clear about it so that I can  27 take a position whether he is tendering this document  28 for the truth of the contents stated therein.  I think  29 it is a simple question, and I would just like to know  30 so I can state my position.  31 THE COURT:  Well, I am new at this business, but I have never  32 heard of a situation quite like this before.  33 MR. PLANT:  My lord, there is one point that does trouble me in  34 your lordship's comment.  My understanding was that we  35 were listening to all of the evidence of oral  36 tradition subject to the Reasons for Judgment which  37 your lordship gave last summer which I summarize  38 including the admissability of this kind of evidence  39 to be determined finally at the conclusion of the  40 trial.  41 THE COURT:  Well, that's partly so.  Well, no, that is so.  It  42 isn't clearly stated in those Reasons that subsequent  43 documents which are admitted into evidence are subject  44 to that infirmity.  I am rather inclined to mark these  45 pages as the next exhibit for identification and we  46 can have an argument later about just what it means.  47 I don't think that in cross-examination documents are 6855  1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8 MR.  9  10 THE  11  12 MR.  13  14  15  16 THE  17  18 MR.  19 THE  20  21  22  23 THE  24 THE  25 THE  26  27  28  2 9 MR.  30  31  32  33  34  35 THE  3 6 MR.  37  38 THE  3 9 MR.  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  G. Williams (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Plant  tendered for the truth of their contents.  They are  tendered to test and confirm and perhaps as Mr. Plant  says flush out the evidence already given.  But I  don't want to commit either of you to a position by  reason of marking this exhibit that we get driven to  what may be an unreasonable conclusion.  And I can see  that as a distinct possibility.  PLANT:  Well, I am quite happy to have them marked only for  identification, My Lord.  COURT:  I think that's what we ought to do and we can have a  discussion about this later.  PLANT:  What I was going to suggest is that the second part  of the extract be also marked and it was going to be  my submission that it may be marked for identification  solely for the purpose of --  COURT:  Well, is there any reason why the whole tab  shouldn't be marked?  PLANT:  Well, in the circumstances --  COURT:  In time it will depend entirely what use is made of  it at the trial, so I am going to mark this next tab  as the next exhibit for identification.  What's the  number, please?  REGISTRAR:  581, My Lord.  COURT:  Thank you.  REGISTRAR:  Tab 8.  (EXHIBIT 581 FOR IDENTIFICATION:  Tab 8)  PLANT:  Q  A  COURT  PLANT  COURT  PLANT  Q  A  Q  Now, Mr. Williams, to move onto another area of  cross-examination.  If I could ask you this, you are  familiar with what are sometimes known as the Barbeau  Beynon field notes?  Yes.  What's the second name?  Barbeau is a spelling we have, and Beynon is  B-E-Y-N-O-N.  Thank you.  And have you had occasion to look at -- well, first  of all can you describe for his lordship your  understanding of what the Barbeau Beynon field notes  are?  They are the original hand notes of Barbeau and  Beynon.  They were the original field notes.  And those two individuals were persons who did  research among the Gitksan people and other people 6856  1  2  A  3  MR.  PLANT  4  5  6  7  MR.  GRANT  8  9  10  MR.  PLANT  11  MR.  GRANT  12  13  14  15  THE  COURT  16  17  18  19  MR.  PLANT  20  Q  21  22  23  A  24  Q  25  26  27  A  28  Q  29  30  A  31  Q  32  33  A  34  Q  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  A  47  G. Williams (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Plant  earlier this century?  Yes.  :  And I may have already asked you this, but have you  had occasion to see those notes or some of them to  study them in the course of your -- oh, excuse me, my  friend has an objection.  :  My lord, I just ask my friend to be a little more  precise.  The Barbeau Beynon field notes are  innumerable documents in our archives.  :  That's why I said, "some of them".  :  The witness may have seen some and they may have  been far distant from anything my friend is referring  to.  Maybe he can refer him to something a bit more  precise.  :  I suppose the first thing to find is if he has seen  any of them.  And the next one will be the scope of  that observation, if he has seen them and what he has  actually seen.  Have you seen some or any of the Barbeau Beynon  field notes in your time as a researcher and also as  part of your personal interest in Gitksan history?  Yes.  Did you have occasion to refer to some or any of  these notes as part of your research into preparing a  map assisting Mr. Sterritt in preparing a map?  No, I don't believe so.  These field notes, those that you have seen and some  of them refer to the histories of Gitksan houses?  Yes.  Do some that you have seen refer to the territories  of Gitksan houses or Gitksan chiefs?  Yes.  Turning to tab 7 of my book of documents, this  three-page document purports to be an extract from  what your counsel Mr. Grant has rightly characterized  as an archive of documents.  There is a reference in  the upper right-hand corner "BF-62-10".  And then it  says, "Collection Marius Barbeau."  And Marus is  M-A-R-I-U-S.  "Albert Williams, Informant.  Interpreter, William Beynon.  "Laskibu",  L-A-X-K-I-B-U, territories."  And then a space and it  says, "House of Malii."  Could you take a moment to  review this and tell me if this is a part of the  Barbeau Beynon field notes which you have seen before?  No, I don't think I have seen this one.  No, I  don't -- I haven't. 6857  1  Q  2  A  3  Q  4  5  6  A  7  Q  8  9  10  A  11  Q  12  13  14  15  A  16  Q  17  18  19  A  20  21  Q  22  23  A  24  25  Q  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  A  35  Q  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  G. Williams (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Plant  This particular one is not one that you have seen?  No, I haven't seen this one.  You have seen some extracts from the field notes  which purport to describe territories of Gitksan  chiefs, though?  Yes.  And did you refer to those as part of your research  when you were employed by the tribal council as a  researcher?  No.  That reference -- the reference that you have made  to these documents has been outside that context, that  is as part of your own personal interest in Gitksan --  studying the Gitksan people, your people?  Yes.  Now, I asked you earlier, and as I recall, you  agreed that tribal council has recorded some adaawks  in writing?  They may have.  I don't know specifics about what  the tribal council has written down the adaawks.  Well, you say you are not sure if the tribal council  has written down adaawks?  I am not too sure in that.  I am not too sure in  that.  Let me see if I can refresh your recollection on  that point.  I have here an extract from proceedings  at trial in a case of Regina vs. Arthur Matthews.  The  extract is from April 23, 1985.  And it is -- I don't  think I have a copy for my friend Mr. Macaulay at the  moment.  That's a matter concerning which I think you  have already given some evidence, that is to say you  attended in court when Art Matthew Sr. was being  procecuted for an alleged fisheries offence?  That's correct.  And the particular part that I want to refer you to  is on the fourth page of this extract beginning at  line 39.  I don't know what the page number is.  It is  page 18 from the transcript.  Well, I will just start  at line 45:  "Q  Now, today are adawk's committed to  writing?  Written down?  A  They're -- the Tribal Council writes  them down."  Were you asked that question in April 1985 and did  you give that answer? 685?  1  A  2  Q  3  A  4  Q  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  A  20  Q  21  A  22  Q  23  A  24  Q  25  26  A  27  Q  28  29  A  30  Q  31  A  32  Q  33  A  34  Q  35  36  37  38  A  39  Q  40  A  41  Q  42  A  43  Q  44  45  46  47  G. Williams (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Plant  Yes, I did.  And the answer was true then?  Yes.  Just turning over the page to the next question, you  were asked:  "Q  Are they written down anywhere else?  A  They are written down in the Barbeau  Beynon notes -- what is called the  Barbeau Beynon notes.  Q  Yes?  A And they're also taped.  Q  Now, to your knowledge, are all the of  the adawks of all the houses of  Gitskan nation written down  A  There are some that are written down."  Were you asked those questions?  Yes.  And you gave those answers?  Yes.  And the answers were true?  Yes.  Do you know the form in which the tribal council  keeps the written versions of adaawks?  No, I don't.  I don't know the form of it.  Could you describe the purpose of writing down the  adaawks?  So they would be on record.  So that there would be a written record --  Yes.  -- of the written history?  Probably, yeah.  As part of your interest in Gitksan history and  also -- well, perhaps this may not be in evidence.  You have been the secretary of the tribal council, the  Gitksan Wet'suwet'en Tribal Council?  Yes.  Do you hold that position today?  No, I don't.  Did you hold that position for a number of years?  About three to four years, I think.  Now, as part of your own personal history now in  Gitksan history and also as an officer of the tribal  council, have you discussed the history and laws of  the Gitksan people with the various experts which the  tribal council has retained from time to time to study 6859  G. Williams (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Plant  1  2  A  3  Q  4  5  6  A  7  Q  8  9  A  10  Q  11  A  12  13  Q  14  15  16  A  17  Q  18  A  19  Q  20  A  21  Q  22  23  A  24  Q  25  26  A  27  MR.  PLANT  28  29  30  THE  COURT  31  MR.  PLANT  32  THE  COURT  33  MR.  PLANT  34  Q  35  A  36  THE  COURT  37  MR.  PLANT  38  Q  39  40  A  41  Q  42  43  A  44  Q  45  46  47  such things?  I may have.  I may have, yeah.  You may have exchanged views with these individuals  on your view of the laws and traditions and histories  of the Gitksan?  Yes.  And you've learned -- you yourself have learned from  your discussions with these individuals?  I wouldn't say I have learned from them, no.  A mutual education process?  I think they more learned from us than we learned  from them.  Now, you've told us about your work as a researcher.  One of the jobs was to work with another staff member  to map fishing holes?  Yes.  Who was the other staff member?  Alec Morgan.  Is he a Gitksan person?  Yes.  Was this job as a researcher the first manifestation  of your interest in land claims?  I am not too sure on your question.  Well, as a young man, as a boy, were you conscious  of what sometimes is referred to as the land question?  Oh, yes, yeah.  Now, I would like to refer you to Exhibit 448 which  is the book Histories, Territories and Laws of the  Kitwancool.  I'm sorry, I don't have a copy --  I have a photocopy somewhere.  I actually do have a spare copy of that.  My copy has been sent to my library.  The copy that was in my library is now the exhibit.  Do you have that before you, Mr. Williams?  Yes.  Exhibit what?  448.  And you are familiar with this book you've already  said?  Yes.  Turning to page 11, the introduction, you've read  this before?  I have read it quite some time ago, yes.  I would like to read paragraph -- the paragraph  which begins at the bottom of page 11 and the first  full paragraph on page 12: 6860  G. Williams (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Plant  1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  MR. GRANT  MR.  THE  MR.  "No matter how others may choose to classify  them, the Kitwancool think of themselves as  an independant and completely autonomous  tribe.  In matters which affect the tribe as  a whole they insist that nobody else has the  right to speak for them.  Some such feeling  of tribal unity is characteristic of the  social structure of all the Tsimshian, but  the Kitwancool have cemented it still further  in recent years by taking formal steps to  unite the clans and by appointing a  president."  I am going to pause there.  The president of the  Kitwancool today is Dr. Peter Williams?  A    That's correct.  Q    Continuing on with the quotation:  "This attitude of independent has been  expressed most clearly with reference to "The  Land Question".  The Kitwancool insist that  they have never been a party to any agreement  to reliquish any of their rights over their  territories.  They have never made a treaty,  nor have they been conquered.  They have  never admitted that the Government has any  right to set aside plots of land for them as  Indian reserves.  In their view, all of their  former territories still rightfully belong to  them."  That's the end of the quotation.  Mr. Williams, in  your experience, does the same attitude towards the  land question which is described in those paragraphs  exist in Kitwanga?  Well, just one moment.  My lord, there are two  paragraphs there which have a whole bunch of comments  on it.  That is an editorial, of course, by the author  Mr. Duff.  I have no objection to him asking those  questions, but I do object to Mr. Plant putting a  whole series of different ideas together and I think  he should break it down.  I will do that, My Lord.  All right.  PLANT  COURT  PLANT  Q  And perhaps do it specifically with reference to  part of the paragraph at the top of page 12. 6861  1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  A  11  12  Q  13  A  14  Q  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  A  22  23  24  25  26  Q  27  28  29  A  30  Q  31  32  33  34  A  35  Q  36  37  A  38  Q  39  40  41  42  43  44  A  45  Q  46  A  47  Q  G. Williams (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Plant  "Kitwancool insists they have never been a  party to any agreement to reliquish any of  their rights over their territories."  When you were growing up as a young boy and then as  a young man in Kitwanga, Mr. Williams, did the people  of Kitwanga maintain the same insistence that is  described there?  That's the second paragraph you are talking about,  is it?  That's right.  "The attitude of independent..." --  The attitude toward the land question.  And in  particular, the insistence by the Kitwancool that they  have never been a party to any agreement and so on.  And I really want to ask you whether the same  applies -- whether that kind of comment applies in  respect of the people of Kitwanga, the village where  you have spent all your life?  Yeah, they have continually stated that, you know,  they have never signed any treaties.  They have never  been conquered, that the land still belongs to them.  They have territories.  They have a house system.  The  same message was there.  And would it be fair to say that these assertions --  you have been aware of these assertions for as long as  you can remember?  Yes.  Now, I'm going to change the subject, Mr. Williams.  You gave us some evidence, you told the court about  your use of a fishing hole which belongs to Fred  Johnson as Lelt?  Correct.  Incidentally, you were the interpreter on Mr.  Johnson's commission in this action?  Yes.  Now, as I interpreted that evidence, your  understanding of this relationship between the two of  you as far as this fishing hole is concerned is that  Lelt wants to be sure that everyone knows that this is  his fishing site, that's part of the reason why  your -- why he has told you to use it?  Yes, and also to protect it.  To protect it in what way?  That nobody else comes and uses it.  So would it be fair to say that keeping a presence 6862  1  2  3  A  4  5  Q  6  7  8  A  9  Q  10  11  A  12  Q  13  14  15  A  16  Q  17  A  18  Q  19  A  20  Q  21  22  A  23  Q  24  25  26  27  A  28  Q  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  A  40  Q  41  42  43  A  44  Q  45  46  A  47  Q  G. Williams (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Plant  there at the fishing hole is a way of preserving his  ownership?  Yes, and that nobody else comes around and uses it  without his consent.  Do the Gitksan recognize a concept of abandonment?  In other words, if you leave your territory alone you  might lose it to somebody else?  Oh, no, no.  So that's not the concern which Fred Johnson has  about his fishing hole?  Oh, no, no.  So -- well, you've told us that you took the name  you have now after the chiefs took that name away  from -- is it Roddy Good?  Yeah, Roddy Good.  Is it Roddy or Ronny?  Roddy Good.  D-D?  Roddy Good.  The transcript says R-O-D-D-Y.  Is it R-O-D-D-Y or  R-O-N-N-Y?  R-O-D-D-Y.  Now, correct me if I am wrong, but my understanding  of your evidence about how you acquired this name was  that Roddy Good lost his right to it because he never  fulfilled the responsibilities that went with it?  That's correct.  Could I just ask you now to turn to tab 9 of my  documents.  There is four pages there and I only want  to ask you about the second two pages.  Number 15 and  then the heading "Note Books of Neil Sterritt, Dated  August 22, 1986 to January 9, 1987."  What follows is  an extract from that.  And under page 9 if you turn  the page around, the date "28th August 1986, T.F. Glen  Williams."  This, as I understand it, purports to be a  note which Mr. Sterritt has made as a result of a  telephone conversation from you.  Do you recall this  conversation?  Yes.  The first part of this note reads:  "Glen said  his..."  And would I be fair in saying that that means  grandfather?  Yes, grandfather.  "Glen says his grandfather knows the story about  Little Oliver Creek."  Was that your grandfather Lelt?  Yes.  And then what follows is I think a summary of that 6863  1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  A  23  Q  24  25  A  26  Q  27  A  28  29  30  Q  31  32  A  33  Q  34  A  35  Q  36  37  38  A  39  Q  40  A  41  Q  42  43  A  44  Q  45  46  47  A  G. Williams (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Plant  story as Mr. Sterritt has recorded it after speaking  with you.  And I would like to read it to see if it  conforms with your recollection of the story that was  told -- that you told to Mr. Sterritt  "A chief from Kitselas frog clan died.  No one  from there could pay the funeral expenses so  the Kitwanga frogs ..."  I won't read their names.  "...paid them.  In return Kitselas gave Little  Oliver to the Kitwanga frogs.  This chief  came from the village of An dam dam."  A-N, D-A-M, D-A-M.  "This happened within the last hundred years."  Now, is that the gist of what you told Neil Sterritt  in this conversation?  Yes.  Relating to him a story which you had been told by  your grandfather Fred Johnson?  Yes.  Where is An dam dam?  An dam dam is a village in Kitselas. I'm not too  exactly sure where An dam dam is, but it is outside  the boundary of the -- in the Kitselas area.  You say it is outside the boundary of the Gitksan  area?  The external boundary, yeah.  But it is within the Kitselas area?  Yes.  Now, as I understand it, Mr. Williams, one of the  responsibilities that goes with a name and territory  is feasting?  Mh'm.  You are nodding and I think that means yes?  Yes.  If a chief dies, then the clan has to hold the feast  and pay the expenses?  That's correct.  So the lesson that we should take from this story of  Little Oliver Creek is that you might lose your land  if you can't feast for it?  It may be, yeah. 6864  G. Williams (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Plant  1  Q  2  3  A  4  5  MR.  PLANT  6  THE  COURT  7  8  9  MR.  PLANT  10  Q  11  12  13  14  A  15  Q  16  A  17  MR.  GRANT  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  THE  COURT  42  MR.  GRANT  43  44  THE  COURT  45  MR.  PLANT  46  MR.  GRANT  47  In effect that would be a kind of abandonment,  wouldn't it?  Adandon, no, I don't think so.  I don't think you  would adandon your land.  You would give it up if you didn't feast?  Isn't this a matter of characterization which is  more for argument than for the witness to draw this  kind of conclusion.  That's fine.  I won't pursue that.  The other point I did want to ask you about, though,  was that in the last paragraph:  "This happened in the  last hundred years."  Is that part of the story as it  was told to you by your grandfather?  I don't really recall that part.  It may have been?  It may have been, yeah.  My Lord, I want to just note for the record that of  course this -- I don't have with me the balance of the  notes and this is an extract as is apparent from the  notebook.  I just received this document book this  morning at 10 o'clock and I haven't had a chance to  review the balance of the notes.  But these are  ongoing as I'm sure that has ultimately become  apparent.  These are ongoing notes that incorporate  certain things.  I can't tell from this extract  whether or not the conversation with Mr. Williams  ended and some other notation that occurred on the  same day, that is the 28th of August, began because  this note on the previous page is something that  occurred on the 29th.  And then there is this on the  28th and then there is something underneath about the  29th.  And whether or not that last sentence comes out  of the discussion with Mr. Williams or from something  else, I don't know.  And I am not saying this to say  that it does or does not, I just can't tell.  And I  would appreciate it if my friend is going to make  reference to these field notes prospectively if he  could give me at least enough notice so that I could  look at the totality and determine whether or not it  is -- if the entire extract is there.  He said the same thing about you, Mr. Grant.  I know he did, but what is good for the goose is  good for the gander, My Lord.  You said it back.  This of course is your document?  That's right, My Lord.  It is one of 12 note books and one of 30,000  documents that have been listed.  And I'm sorry, I 6865  G. Williams (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Plant  MR.  MR.  MR.  9 THE  10 MR.  11  12  13 THE  14  15 THE  16 THE  17 THE  18  19  20  21 MR.  22  23 THE  2 4 MR.  25  26  27 THE  28  29  30  31 MR.  32  33  34  35 THE  36 THE  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  PLANT  GRANT  PLANT  COURT  PLANT  COURT:  can't remember them all at all times.  Are there 30,000 documents on the plaintiff's list?  No, I am counting the federal and defendant's list.  Very good.  In view of my friend's comments  concerning his concern that the context that this  paper might have in relation to Mr. Sterritt's  notebook as a whole, I am going to ask that the two  pages be marked as an exhibit for identification.  The two pages being --  The page with the number 15 and the title page of  note books, et cetera, and then pages 8 and 9 which  reproduce --  Yes, all right.  That can be the next exhibit for  identification.  REGISTRAR:  582 for identification, tab 9.  COURT:  582?  REGISTRAR:  Yes, My Lord.  (EXHIBIT 582 FOR IDENTIFICATION: Tab 9)  GRANT:  Just for the record, that is the page starting  August 22 '86 to January 9, '87.  It is part of tab 9.  COURT:  Yes.  PLANT:  And your lordship can disregard the first two pages  at tab 9 of my binder as I will not be referring to  them.  COURT:  I will give them back to you now.  Mr. Plant, I have  to adjourn today at 25 after.  We are almost there.  Is it convenient?  Is there something you want to do  for the next two minutes?  PLANT:  It may take longer.  It may take less time, one  never knows.  COURT:  Two o'clock, please.  REGISTRAR:  Order in court, court will adjourn until two.  (PROCEEDINGS ADJOURNED)  I hereby certify the foregoing to  be a true and accurate transcript  of the proceedings herein  transcribed to the best of my  skill and ability.  LISA FRANKO, OFFICIAL REPORTER 6866  G. Williams (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Plant  1 UNITED REPORTING SERVICE LTD.  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34 1  35 (PROCEEDINGS RECONVENED AT 2:00 P.M.)  36  37 THE REGISTRAR:  Order in court.  Calling Delgamuukw versus Her  38 Majesty the Queen at bar, my lord.  39 THE COURT:  Mr. Plant.  40 MR. PLANT:  My lord, I have a matter that does not require  41 examination of the witness directly.  At page 6730,  42 Volume 106, my friend tendered and Mr. Williams proved  43 by his signature an agreement between Canadian  44 National Railroad and the Gitwangak Band of Indians as  45 represented by the Gitwangak Band Council.  That's the  46 document at tab 7 of the Plaintiffs' book, and it's  47 Exhibit 568.  I -- as a result of a subpoena which I 6867  G. Williams (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Plant  1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16 THE  17 MR.  18 THE  19 MR.  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27 THE  28  29  3 0 MR.  31  32 THE  33 MR.  34  35 THE  3 6 MR.  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45 THE  46  47  COURT  GRANT  COURT  GRANT  COURT  PLANT  COURT  PLANT  COURT  PLANT  COURT  have directed to counsel for Canadian National  Railroad, I have a copy of a letter dated September  19, 1985, which refers to that agreement and, although  this may be a matter of argument, states the intention  of paragraph 10 of that agreement.  And this witness  was asked by Mr. Grant why he had negotiated that term  in the agreement, and I am proposing simply to file  this letter of September 19th, 1985, from Mr.  Chaisson, counsel for C.N., to Mr. Grant.  I had asked  my friend to produce a copy of this to me, and while I  understand he is still trying to produce the documents  pursuant to the requests I've made over the last week  or so, this is not one that he has produced up till  now, and I'm concerned that the matter not drag on  without some reference to it in the record.  Well, does Mr. Grant object to this?  I certainly do, my lord.  You do?  Yes.  This is a letter.  I -- I -- relating to  discussions between myself and Mr. Chaisson concerning  that other agreement.  This is not a letter -- an  addendum to the agreement or anything else.  It is Mr.  Chaisson setting out to me in the course of  communications between us relating to this agreement,  and it is several months after the agreement, what he  understands these clauses to be.  This is why we have the Parol evidence rule.  I  wondered why your friend didn't object when you asked  the witness what the document was intending to mean.  Now your lordship knows.  I knew of the existence of  this letter at the time that that question was asked.  Well —  And just this one comment, my lord.  The letter  says, "We confirm..."  I shouldn't know what's in the letter, should I?  I'm not going to refer to the substance other than  to respond to a statement which my friend has made.  My friend suggests that this is Mr. Chaisson's view of  the meaning of the agreement.  The letter properly  construed, in my submission, is a confirmation of a  telephone conversation and may arguably, therefore,  be -- I -- my reading of the letter, at any rate, is  that we, representing these two parties, have agreed  that this is what clause 10 means.  Well, I only have one firm view, like Viscount  Dunedin in Sorrel vs. Smith where he started his  opinion by saying he never held a clear view and then 686?  G. Williams (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Plant  1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  MR. GRANT  THE COURT  MR.  THE  PLANT  COURT  MR. PLANT  THE  MR.  THE  COURT  PLANT  COURT  went on for 20 pages to attain considerable levels of  obscurity.  But the clearest view I have of this is  that it can't be put in this way except by consent.  It seems to me, and I haven't, of course, read the  letter, it seems to me that you must either cross-  examine the witness on the letter and get him to adopt  it, or you'll have to prove it in some other way.  But  I don't think that I -- at present the clear view that  I have now is that there's no way in which I can see  the letter from Mr. Chaisson as evidence in this case  just by you tendering it.  No one but a lawyer would  have any difficulty with that.  They would actually  think if that's what somebody says it's in, without  thinking about whether it goes to weight or truth or  what it does.  They would say, well, of course it  should go in.  But I don't think there's any basis for  putting it in.  Just one point, my lord, and that is this, is that  when this was raised with me on Monday, I informed my  friend that, of course, I was here.  I don't bring my  entire office with me, and I have not had an  opportunity to review my files.  And that's one of my  problems with this as to what -- the context in which  this happened.  Ultimately I may withdraw that  position.  I don't know.  But I cannot agree to this  at all now.  When I say I can't allow it to come in, I mean I  can't allow it to be put in just by tendering it.  I  think there may be admissible evidence in that -- that  letter may become admissible in some way, but I don't  think tendering it at this time is sufficient without  some admission or affirmative evidence.  Yes.  I have given the letter back to Madam Registrar.  She'll give it back to you.  Yes.  Mr. Williams, I'm going to show you a copy of  this letter of September 19, 1985, under the  letterhead of Ladner Downs, a firm of solicitors in  Vancouver, addressed to Mr. Grant concerning the  agreement which is now marked as Exhibit 568.  Can you  cast your mind back and tell me whether or not you  have any recollection, tell the court whether or not  you have any recollection of having seen such a  letter?  This is relating to clause 10?  Excuse me, my lord?  This relates to clause 10 did you say? 6869  G. Williams (For Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Plant  1  MR.  PLANT  2  Q  3  4  A  5  Q  6  THE  REGIS  7  MR.  PLANT  8  Q  9  A  10  11  Q  12  A  13  MR.  PLANT  14  THE  COURT  15  MR.  PLANT  16  THE  COURT  17  MR.  PLANT  18  19  20  THE  COURT  21  MR.  PLANT  22  THE  COURT  23  MR.  PLANT  24  THE  COURT  25  MR.  GRANT  26  MR.  PLANT  27  MR.  GRANT  28  MR.  PLANT  29  30  31  THE  COURT  32  MR.  PLANT  33  THE  COURT  34  MR.  PLANT  35  36  THE  COURT  37  MR.  PLANT  38  THE  COURT  39  MR.  PLANT  40  THE  COURT  41  MR.  PLANT  42  43  THE  COURT  44  MR.  PLANT  45  Q  46  47  Yes.  Would you like to --  Where is paragraph 10?  Yes.  It's in the black book there.  RAR:  Tab 7.  At tab 7.  I can't recall seeing it.  I probably did.  I don't  recall it specifically.  Probably did or did not?  Probably did.  I don't recall it specifically.  Well, I'm not sure probably is good enough, my lord.  No, I don't think so.  So I'm —  We don't --  I'm just considering whether I should ask to have  the letter marked for identification, but I don't  think I will, my lord.  I'll carry on.  What is the date of the letter?  September 19, 1985.  From Ladner Downs to Mr. Grant?  Yes, over Mr. Chaisson's signature.  What's the reference file?  There's no signature on the letter.  Excuse me?  There's no signature on the copy.  Oh, well, Mr. Chaisson's name is at the bottom.  I  assume the reason I don't have the signature is that I  have Mr. Chaisson's copy.  Yes.  All right.  Oh, yes.  I'm sorry.  The file number is 19056/61.  Thank you.  That's sufficient for my purposes in any event, my  lord.  A one page, one paragraph letter?  I beg your pardon?  A one page, one paragraph letter?  Oh, a one page letter with three paragraphs.  Thank you.  I'm coming very close to reading the letter, my  lord, but no.  We won't let you do that.  I'd like to change the subject now, Mr. Williams, and  ask you some questions about the map that you worked  on when you were a researcher with the Tribal Council. 6870  1  2  3  4  5  6  A  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  Q  16  A  17  Q  18  19  A  20  Q  21  22  23  A  24  Q  25  26  A  27  Q  28  29  30  A  31  Q  32  33  34  35  A  36  Q  37  38  39  A  40  Q  41  42  A  43  Q  44  45  A  46  Q  47  G. Williams (For Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Plant  Can you please describe the research that you did?  And I'm now referring to the research connected with a  territories map rather than the research that was  directed at substantiating the location of fishing  sites .  The map that I helped pull together was the -- was  mainly based on Neil Sterritt's notes and the work  that he had done when coming to work for the Tribal  Council, and it was mainly confirming some of his --  the notes that he had, the -- how the map was put  together, and going out and confirming with chiefs at  meetings, confirming the names of some of the creeks  and where some of the boundaries were.  And that was  the major -- major part of my work there.  Did you yourself go out to have meetings with chiefs?  Yes, we did.  You say "we."  Were you out -- going out with Mr.  Sterritt?  At certain times we did go out with Mr. Sterritt.  Now, you say "meetings."  Do you mean meetings where  there would be several chiefs present discussing the  subjects of creeks and boundaries and so on?  Yes.  And occasionally just a one-on-one meeting with one  chief?  Yes.  And I take it that this was in order to acquire the  knowledge necessary to prepare a map?  This kind of  interviewing and meeting process was necessary?  Yes.  The helicopter trips that you described in your  evidence in chief were also part of the process that  you had to go through in order to assist in the  preparation of this map?  Yes.  Now, at the meetings where there would be groups of  chiefs would there be discussion of where the  boundaries of a given territory were?  Yes, there would be.  Sometimes an attempt to identify areas of disagreement  with the location of boundaries?  Yes.  Work out those areas of disagreement, if you could, by  having the chiefs discuss it amongst themselves?  Yes.  And as a result of the efforts that you've described  was a map put together? 6871  1  A  2  MR.  PLANT  3  4  5  6  7  THE  COURT  8  MR.  PLANT  9  Q  10  11  A  12  THE  COURT  13  MR.  PLANT  14  THE  COURT  15  MR.  PLANT  16  17  18  THE  COURT  19  MR.  PLANT  20  21  22  MR.  GRANT  23  24  THE  COURT  25  MR.  GRANT  26  MR.  PLANT  27  Q  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  A  35  Q  36  37  38  39  A  40  Q  41  A  42  Q  43  44  45  A  46  Q  47  G. Williams (For Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Plant  Yes, it was.  I ask you to turn to tab 6 in my book of documents.  Is this the map that was prepared as a result of the  efforts, the research efforts you've described?  The document at tab 6 of my book of documents, my  lord, is a copy of Exhibit 102 in this trial.  102?  102, yes, my lord.  The map entitled "Traditional  Boundaries of the Gitksan-Wet'suwet'en Territories."  Yes, it looks like the map that we prepared.  We'll call it the map that roared.  I beg your pardon.  We'll call it the map that roared.  Yes.  And I'm just thinking of sound in fury, my  lord, because I've now asked the only question I want  to ask about this map.  I didn't unfold mine.  So thank you very much, Mr. Williams, and perhaps  rather than putting you to the trouble of folding it  up, I'll just take it away.  Can Mr. Plant stop for five minutes so we can put  ours away maybe?  I doubt if he said yes to your question.  I missed the answer.  Now, Mr. Williams, I'd like you to turn, if you would,  to tab 14 in the book of documents which I've  prepared.  The first page of tab 14 says, "Gitksan  Carrier Tribal Council 3rd Annual Convention, Our  Existence, Our Survival, Hazelton, B.C. November 5, 6,  7, 1980."  Did you attend the third annual convention  of the Gitksan Carrier Tribal Council, Mr. Williams?  Yes, I did.  Now, turning to page 4 of the document, and when I say  page 4, I'm referring to the page numbered 4 at the  bottom of the page -- oh, I'm sorry, at the top of the  page.  Do you have that?  Yes, I do.  Were you a delegate from Gitwangak to this convention?  Yes, I was.  And is it the usual practice -- has it been the usual  practice, in your experience, for the Tribal Council  to hold an annual convention?  Yes, it has.  Was this the annual convention in which you were  nominated for secretary?  And -- well, I can start by 6872  1  2  3  4  5  A  6  Q  7  8  9  10  A  11  Q  12  13  A  14  Q  15  16  A  17  Q  18  A  19  2 0 MR.  PLANT  21  22 THE  COURT  2 3 MR.  PLANT  24  Q  25  26  27  28  29  30  A  31  32  33  Q  34  A  35  Q  36  37  A  38  Q  39  40  41  A  42  Q  43  44  45  A  46  47  Q  G. Williams (For Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Plant  asking you to look at the page numbered 6 at the top.  I'm sorry, maybe -- my reading of that is it appears  that you were nominated for the position of treasurer.  Do you have any recollection of that?  I can't really remember that time.  Now, during the course of an annual general meeting or  a convention of the Tribal Council there are a number  of resolutions passed on various matters that form the  business of the Tribal Council?  Yes.  And in some cases those resolutions emanate from the  executive of the Tribal Council?  I don't —  The business the executive wants to raise before  the -- the annual convention?  Do you mean the resolutions come from the executive?  Yes.  Do they?  No, I don't think so.  It mainly comes out of the  floor out of the convention.  :  Could you turn then to the sixth to the last page of  this document titled "Resolution number 5."  :  What page again?  The sixth to the last.  It would be after the -- the  page numbers stop, so go to the back of the report and  find resolution number 5.  Can you identify this for me as a resolution  passed at the third annual convention of the Gitksan  Carrier Tribal Council, Mr. Williams?  I can't remember it specifically.  I -- this  resolution specifically, but I've heard discussions on  this issue.  You recall discussions about that issue?  Yeah.  Have those discussions occurred at a number of annual  conferences of the Tribal Council?  On some occasions, yes.  And you recall discussions actually having occurred on  the occasion of the third annual convention, November  of 1980?  No, I don't recall specifically, no.  You recall having seen this document, which is the --  the report, I guess, of -- perhaps you could identify  it for me as a product of the annual convention?  I've seen the -- the front cover and some of the  reports in it, but I didn't see the resolutions.  You don't have any specific recollection at this time 6873  G. Williams (For Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Plant  1 of whether or not resolution number 5 was --  2 enacted at that conference in 1980?  3 A   I don't recall.  4 Q   The issue that that deals with that you say has  5 been -- you do recall discussions concerning is the --  6 the feeling of some hereditary chiefs that they are  7 used for tokenism at conferences?  8 A   I don't recall tokenism.  I recall that discussions  9 that -- and debates about hereditary chiefs, that the  10 hereditary chiefs are the ultimate authority and  11 they -- that they should be recognized and they should  12 be given full decision making on -- in respect to the  13 Tribal Council.  And that's since been adopted, and  14 that's what -- what the situation is now.  15 Q   There was a time when the hereditary chiefs were  16 complaining that they were being overlooked in the  17 ultimate decision making?  18 A   I don't think that the hereditary chiefs have ever  19 been overlooked.  I don't recall them being -- ever  20 being overlooked.  It's mainly what -- what I -- what  21 I understand is that it's -- they wanted to be on the  22 board of directors of the Tribal Council, and that  23 was -- I think that was the basis of discussion, that  24 you had about 16 members on the board of the Tribal  25 Council and -- and discussion was that the hereditary  26 chiefs should be on the -- on the board of directors,  27 and that was the basis of discussion, but not at any  28 time that the authority or -- of the hereditary chiefs  29 have ever been overlooked.  30 Q   Well, I -- that's -- you say it hasn't been  31 overlooked.  My question is whether you recall  32 complaints by them that they weren't being given  33 sufficient voice?  34 A   That's what I said a while ago, that they wanted to be  35 on the board of directors, from what I understand of  36 it.  37 Q   Now, changing the subject again, you referred in your  38 evidence in chief to a number of positions that you  39 have held in your career.  One of the positions you  40 have held is band manager for the Gitwangak Band?  41 A   Yes, from time to time, yeah.  42 Q   Now, if I could ask you to turn to tab 10 of the book,  43 there are a number of documents there, most of which  44 purport to be band council resolutions.  And if I  45 could direct your attention to the fifth page of that  46 tab, which is a band council resolution, a copy of it,  47 dated March 24, 1980, the Gitwangak Band Council.  Is 6874  G. Williams (For Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Plant  1  2  3  A  4  THE  COURT  5  MR.  PLANT  6  THE  COURT  7  MR.  PLANT  8  9  10  THE  COURT  11  12  MR.  PLANT  13  THE  COURT  14  MR.  PLANT  15  16  THE  COURT  17  MR.  MACAU  18  MR.  PLANT  19  20  THE  COURT  21  THE  REGIS  22  23  24  25  26  MR.  PLANT  27  Q  28  29  30  31  32  33  A  34  Q  35  A  36  Q  37  38  39  A  40  Q  41  42  A  43  MR.  PLANT  44  45  THE  COURT  46  47  MR.  GRANT  that your signature on the left-hand side near the  bottom as the band councillor?  Yes.  I'm sorry, what document are you looking at?  Tab 10, document number -- page number 5 of tab 10.  It's a resolution, is it?  Band council resolution, and the date 24, March,  1980.  The date's about a quarter of the way down the  page.  Oh, yes.  Okay.  A complicated way of writing the  date.  I beg your pardon?  A complicated way of writing the date.  Yes.  For once I suppose I could blame somebody  else's government.  Yes.  AY:  It's for security reasons, my lord.  I'd ask that this document be marked as the next  exhibit.  Yes.  RAR:  That will be Exhibit number 583.  (EXHIBIT 583 - Tab 10  March 24, 1980)  Band Council Resolution dated  And, Mr. Williams, if I could ask you to turn to the  last page at tab 10, which is a copy of a band council  resolution of the Gitwangak Band Council, and the date  there appears to be the 15th day of December, 1980.  Allowing for the poor quality of the photocopy, is  that also your -- is that your signature?  Yes, it is .  Second name down on the left-hand side?  Yes, it is.  And Gitwangak Native Development Incorporated was a  company incorporated by members of the Gitwangak  Band --  Yes, it was.  -- to carry on logging activity in the general area of  Gitwangak?  Yes.  :  All right.  I'd ask that this document be marked as  the next exhibit, my lord.  :  Which document?  I've lost track of these documents  again.  Is it 060?  :  34.  The very last one in the tab. 6875  1 MR.  2 THE  3 MR.  4  5 THE  6 THE  7  8  9  10  11 MR.  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  PLANT  COURT  PLANT  COURT  G. Williams (For Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Plant  In the lower right-hand corner there is a number.  Oh, 034.  All right.  And it's a copy of a band council resolution of  December 15, 1980.  Yeah.  All right.  584.  REGISTRAR:  584  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  (EXHIBIT 584 - Tab 10  December 15, 1980)  Band Council Resolution dated  PLANT:  Q  Now, Mr. Williams, if I could ask you to turn to the  document at tab 12, which is entitled "Gitwangak  Indian Band Submission to Federal Government  Departments, Ottawa, Ontario, March 1984."  Do you  recall this document?  And there's at least one --  there are two appendices to the document.  And if you  turn to after page 11, you'll see that one of the  appendices purports to be Gitwangak Band Social  Development Programme Variance Report submitted to Mr.  Glen Williams, Band Councillor of Gitwangak Band  Council, February 9, 1984.  Yes, I remember the appendix on it.  I remember that.  I don't actually have to press you on this point, Mr.  Williams, because the particular area of interest I  have is the page numbered 4 in the main body of the  report under the heading "2.3 Economy of Area."  Um hum.  And I -- in 1984 you were a band councillor?  Yes.  And as part of your general knowledge as band  councillor and a resident Gitwangak, could you confirm  that there were six major employers in the Gitwangak  area at that time, namely B.C. Timber, Gitwangak  Lumber, School District number 88, Provincial  Government, Gitwangak Band Council, and small  independent businesses?  Yes, I —  And table 4 states, "Number of Employees by Employers  in Area."  Does that -- do the numbers set out there  conform with your understanding of the numbers of  employees employed by those various entities at about  that time?  Yes, it does.  And I'm not going to file this document, so I'll just  read B.C. Timber, and that's the company now known as  Westar? 6876  G. Williams (For Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Plant  1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9 MR.  10 MR.  11  12  13 THE  14 MR.  15  16  17 MR.  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37 MR.  38 THE  39 THE  4 0 MR.  41 THE  42 MR.  43  44  45  46  47  A   That's correct.  Q   The number of employees there is 100 to 110?  A   Yes.  Q   And Gitwangak Lumber, 50 to 60; School District number  88, 30; Ministry of Highways, 20; Gitwangak Band  Council, 15 to 20; small businesses, 75 to 90.  Are  those correct?  A   Yes.  PLANT:  Now, changing the subject again, Mr. Williams --  GRANT:  Just a moment, my lord.  Just in case the record is  ambiguous, of course this is with reference to March  1984.  COURT:  Yes.  GRANT:  And my friend has been -- in some of his questions  used the present tense, so I just want the record to  be clear that these figures relate to at that time.  PLANT:  Q   And if I've been unclear in my questions, I was  intending to ask you, Mr. Williams, around about that  time, March 1984, rather than today.  A Yes, those figures would be correct.  Q   Thank you.  Now, Mr. Williams, you gave some evidence  about bingo, and perhaps I could ask you a few  questions on that subject, asking you first a question  with respect to tab 11 in your book.  That's Exhibit  572.  When I say your book, I mean the book of the  Plaintiffs' documents.  A   Tab 11?  Q   Tab 11, yes.  The Gitwangak bingo permit.  A   Yes.  Q   Looking in the lower left-hand corner of that document  where it says, "Band Appointed Gaming Control  Officer," who is that, please?  A   That's —  Q   Who is that person?  A   Tenimgyet.  PLANT:  Art Mathews Junior?  COURT:  What tab are you looking under?  REGISTRAR:  Tab 11,  PLANT  COURT  PLANT  Q  A  Q  Tab 11 of the Plaintiffs  Oh, I'm sorry.  Okay.  book, my lord.  So the person identified in the lower left-hand corner  as Band Appointed Gaming Control Officer is Tenimgyet  or Art Mathews Junior?  That's correct.  Now, my instructions are that the Gitwangak Band 6877  G. Williams (For Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Plant  1  2  3  4  5  6  A  7  Q  8  9  10  11  A  12  Q  13  14  15  16  17  A  18  Q  19  20  21  22  23  24  A  25  Q  26  27  A  28  THE  COURT  29  30  MR.  PLANT  31  THE  COURT  32  MR.  GRANT  33  34  35  36  37  38  THE  COURT  39  MR.  PLANT  40  Q  41  42  43  A  44  Q  45  46  47  obtained a bingo licence in the spring of 1985, and  that is to say, a licence permitting the band to  conduct bingos for a period of a year every other  Sunday to raise money for the construction of a  community hall.  Can you confirm that for me?  Yes, they did.  I'm further instructed that in 1981 the band council  obtained a lottery licence to hold a bingo or bingos  issued to the Gitwangak Hockey Club.  Do you have any  recollection of that?  They may have.  I can't really remember.  And as part of your own consideration and  investigation under the issue of bingo games on  reserves, you've told us in your evidence that you've  made reference to or had occasion to see some  documents relating to the Hagwilget Band?  That's correct.  And you can confirm for me that -- for the court that  to your knowledge the -- each of the Indian bands  which are -- which comprise the membership of the  Gitksan-Wet'suwet'en Tribal Council have from time to  time obtained licences to hold bingos on their  reserves?  I have no knowledge of that.  You haven't any knowledge of any other bands obtaining  licences to conduct bingo games?  Not specific knowledge, no.  What was the date you gave me for the one year  licence every other Sunday?  Spring of 1985.  Thank you.  I'm not certain.  I think my friend asked if that  had been issued -- if that had been issued on -- to  the Gitwangak Band.  The documents that he produced to  me this morning with reference to this indicated that  it was not to the Gitwangak Band but to the Gitwangak  Hall Committee.  Thank you.  That's correct, my lord.  That, Mr. Williams, was a committee to organize  the construction of the community hall in Gitwangak?  That's correct.  Now, Mr. Williams, I want to ask you some questions  about tobacco tax.  You described in your evidence and  identified in your evidence an agreement with the  Provincial Government concerning an exemption from 687?  1  2  A  3  Q  4  5  6  A  7  Q  8  9  10  11  12  13  A  14  15  16  Q  17  A  18  Q  19  20  A  21  Q  22  23  A  24  Q  25  26  A  27  MR.  PLANT  28  THE  COURT  29  30  THE  WITNE  31  MR.  GRANT  32  33  34  MR.  PLANT  35  MR.  GRANT  36  37  38  39  MR.  PLANT  40  Q  41  42  43  44  A  45  Q  46  47  G. Williams (For Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Plant  tobacco taxes.  Do you recall that?  Yes.  And the agreement itself is at tab 10 of the  Plaintiffs' book of documents, just to refresh your  recollection.  Do you have that?  Yes, I do.  Now, my instructions are that some two years before  this agreement, which is dated July '87, 1987, the  Provincial Government had entered into an arrangement  with respect to exemption for fuel taxes for fuel sold  to band members of the Gitwangak Band.  Can you  confirm that?  I don't know of any agreement, but I know that we're  exempt from the provincial sales tax at the gas  station on the Gitwangak Reserve.  Is that Norm Johnson's gas station?  That's correct.  And is that the gas station at the intersection of  Highway 16 and Highway 37?  Yes.  So if members of your band buy gas at that gas  station, they don't pay the fuel tax?  They don't pay the provincial tax.  Yes.  Does the band levy a tax now in respect of fuel  sold on the reserve?  No, they don't.  :  Now --  :  Well, they get it at a reduced rate from the market  rate then, do they?  3S:  Yes, it's 7 cents, I believe.  :  I'm instructed, my lord, that's a standard matter  across the board as a result of a decision of our  Court of Appeal relating to -- to taxation on reserve.  :  The Danes case.  :  The Lillian Brown case and the Danes case.  And  it's -- it's not something -- this gas tax exemption,  I understand, is not something exclusive to the  Gitwangak Band but was a result of a court decision.  I agree, and that's the point, my lord.  You were aware of the court decision that's been  handed down clarifying or -- the extent of the  provincial right to tax Indians on their reserves?  The provincial right?  Well, you were aware that there were court cases on  the question of whether the Province could levy taxes  against Indians on reserves for things like fuel, and 6879  G. Williams (For Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Plant  1 their hydro bills, and their cablevision bills and  2 things like that?  3 A   I'm aware that the Indians won the case on exemption  4 of provincial taxes on reserve.  I'm aware of that.  5 MR. PLANT:  And as a result of that, Indian bands in British  6 Columbia have made application for exemptions and have  7 entered into agreements that, in effect, exempt them  8 from taxes because -- well, that's what they do, is  9 they exempt them from taxes?  10 MR. GRANT:  How would the witness know what all of the Indians  11 bands do.  I think what I'm saying --  12 MR. PLANT:  The witness may well know.  13 MR. GRANT:  The question is what happens as a matter of law that  14 these taxes are not being collected.  Now he's asking  15 about agreements of all the bands.  I think there's  16 195 reserves in this province.  How is this witness  17 going to know about all of those?  18 MR. PLANT:  19 Q   I give up.  I mean, he may have been in constant  20 communication with each of the 195 bands.  My point is  21 simply to establish that this whole question of  22 exemption is a matter that was widely known and not  23 unique to this band.  24 But you did -- you did describe in your evidence,  25 Mr. Williams, a meeting that you had in the spring of  26 1987 with Steven Rogers, provincial cabinet minister?  27 A   Yes.  28 Q   And there were -- the result of that eventually was  29 this agreement, which is marked Exhibit 571?  30 A   Yes.  31 Q   Could you read -- well, I'll read it for you.  Tab --  32 or whereas clause B in that agreement.  33  34 "Whereas the Minister wishes to establish a  35 system whereby the band may purchase tobacco  36 products for resale on the reserve to  37 Indians without payment of an amount equal  38 to provincial tobacco tax."  39  40 Now, as I understand your evidence, Mr. Williams,  41 the agreement which is Exhibit 571 was an agreement  42 negotiated by you as chief councillor of the band?  4 3 A   Yes, it was.  44 Q   I -- I suggest to you that the government's concern,  45 as expressed to you in negotiations and in  46 correspondence, was that the exemption which is  47 contemplated by this agreement would only apply if the 6880  G. Williams (For Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Plant  1  2  3  A  4  Q  5  6  7  8  9  A  10  11  12  13  14  15  Q  16  17  18  A  19  20  21  MR.  PLANT  22  23  24  25  MR.  GRANT  26  THE  COURT  27  MR.  PLANT  28  29  30  31  MR.  GRANT  32  MR.  PLANT  33  34  MR.  GRANT  35  36  37  38  MR.  PLANT  39  Q  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  A  47  Q  cigarettes were sold to Indians on the reserve.  You  were aware of that, weren't you?  What is your question again?  Well, the -- from the government's point of view, as  you were made aware of it, their concern was that the  exemption which is created by this agreement would  only apply to cigarettes sold -- I should amend that  to tobacco products -- sold to Indians on the reserve?  I don't know whether the government had any concern,  but we were concerned about the illegal tax that they  were imposing and selling on reserve.  And clause B  there, I had my own reservations about it.  The  minister wishes.  We had to force the minister to --  to -- we devised the system.  It wasn't the minister.  But you were -- it goes without saying you were aware  of the minister's wishes as stated in this agreement,  which you helped prepare?  Well, I don't know whether the minister wished, but it  was forced on the minister because the taxes were  illegal at that time.  I have a copy of -- another copy of this tobacco  purchase agreement, Mr. Williams, and I'm going to ask  you to have a look at it.  And I have a copy for your  lordship.  Do you have a copy of that for me?  It's different from Exhibit 571, is it?  No, this is another version.  Well, it may be  Exhibit 571 with an addition to it.  The last page,  that's the addition.  Now, referring to the document  that I've given --  :  Do you have a copy?  :  I gave you a copy of that this morning or last  night.  It was this morning.  :  I'm sorry, my lord.  My friend indicates he gave me  a copy of this this morning.  I received quite a few  things this morning.  I didn't know about this as  well.  I just want to make a comparison, my lord.  It's the same agreement so far as I've been able to  determine, and the purpose that I'm referring to it --  the purpose for which I have referred to it is the  fourth page, which is the apparently an application  form.  Mr. Williams, you can recognize your signature on  this photocopy on the third page of the document?  Yes, I do.  And is that your signature also on the bottom of the G. Williams (For Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Plant  1 fourth page?  2 A   Yes, it is.  3 Q   The quota of tobacco which was allotted under this  4 agreement was calculated according to a formula which  5 depended on the number of band residents, in  6 particular Gitwangak Band residents and a proportion  7 of the residents of the Kitsegukla and Kitwancool  8 bands; is that correct?  9 A   That's correct.  10 Q   And so once you determine the number of band  11 residents, you could then, applying the formula,  12 determine the quota of cigarettes or the equivalent in  13 loose tobacco which would be allotted under the terms  14 of this tobacco purchase agreement?  15 A   Yes.  16 Q   Now, you provided the band population figures to the  17 government that permitted this calculation to take  18 place?  19 A   Yes.  20 THE COURT:  What's the 10 per cent for Kitsegukla and the 10 per  21 cent for Kitwancool?  22 THE WITNESS:  Because they — they're nearby villages.  They —  23 and the majority of them work at the sawmill, and  24 they -- they agreed to add a small percentage of their  25 population in.  26 THE COURT:  There's more than 66.8 people in each of these two  27 villages, isn't there?  That 10 per cent doesn't  28 represent the population of those other villages?  29 THE WITNESS:  No, it doesn't.  30 THE COURT:  No.  That's just the formula, is it?  31 THE WITNESS:  Yes.  32 MR. PLANT:  The number of band residents which appears at the  bottom of the fourth page of this document is 668.  You understand that to be the population of the -- or  the number of Gitwangak Band residents?  That's correct.  And the figure which appears under 6,680, and by that  I mean the figure of 1,090, that is a figure that  incorporates the 10 per cent of the Kitsegukla and  Kitwancool Band residents?  Based on ten cigarettes per day per Indian.  Right.  That's what happens after you apply the  formula?  Yes.  :  I ask that this document be marked, my lord.  47 THE COURT:  Can it be 571A?  33  Q  34  35  36  37  A  38  Q  39  40  41  42  A  43  Q  44  45  A  4 6 MR.  PLANT G. Williams (For Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Plant  1  MR.  GRANT  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  MR.  PLANT  12  THE  COURT  13  THE  REGIS  14  THE  COURT  15  MR.  PLANT  16  17  18  19  (EXHIBIT  20  21  THE  COURT  22  23  MR.  PLANT  24  THE  COURT  25  26  MR.  PLANT  27  28  29  30  31  32  THE  COURT  33  MR.  PLANT  34  35  THE  COURT  36  MR.  PLANT  37  THE  COURT  38  MR.  PLANT  39  40  THE  COURT  41  42  43  44  MR.  PLANT  45  46  THE  COURT  47  MR.  PLANT  Well, my concern, my lord, is that the document  that's been produced here is the agreement with this  attached to it.  I -- the document I was provided with  as the entire agreement was -- was what was tendered  as 571.  I don't object -- I'm not objecting to this  fourth page going in, but I -- I have not had an  opportunity to determine whether in fact this fourth  page is part of the agreement, and I suggest to my  friend that if he wants the fourth page to go in, it  should go in as a separate document.  I'm content with that, my lord.  Okay.  What's the next exhibit number?  ?RAR:  585, my lord.  That will just be the exemption.  Exhibit 585 is entitled in the upper right-hand  corner "Application For Tax Exempt Tobacco Sales to  Registered Indians on an Indian Reserve."  585  Application for Tax Exempt Tobacco Sales)  All right.  How does anyone get the right to fix the  number at ten cigarettes a day?  Excuse me, my lord?.  How does anyone get the right to fix the number at  ten cigarettes a day?  That -- I don't think I'm sufficiently knowledgeable  to answer that question.  I think it is a calculation  made by the ministry in order to avoid an abuse of the  exemption by creating a limitation on the number of  cigarettes, and they do limit on the basis of total  band population.  Is this exemption granted pursuant to a regulation?  No, my instructions are that it's granted pursuant  to a policy bulletin issued by the ministry.  Consequent upon the Court of Appeal judgement?  Pardon me?  Consequent upon the appeal judgement?  Yes, although the judgment does not deal with  tobacco.  No.  I just don't understand where anyone gets the  right to arbitrarily say ten.  It might have been 20  or 30, and it might have been five, but it sounds  terribly arbitrary.  It may well be, my lord.  I'm afraid I can't assist  your lordship in that.  All right. 1  Q  2  3  A  4  5  6  Q  7  8  9  A  10  Q  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  A  29  Q  30  31  A  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  Q  40  41  42  43  A  4 4 MR.  PLANT  45  46  47 THE  COURT  G. Williams (For Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Plant  Mr. Williams, do you know how the figure of 10 is  arrived at?  We had to live with it.  That's -- that's -- that just  came out of the air with discussions with the -- with  the ministry.  So it wasn't your suggestion?  It came from the  government, and, in effect, you didn't have much  choice?  We didn't have any choice at all.  Now, Mr. Grant asked you some questions about this  agreement earlier this week.  Volume 106, page 6742.  Mr. Grant asked you this question, and I'll just  provide you with the transcript here:  "Q      Now, was there any opposition or any  efforts to cancel this agreement by  outsiders or persons outside of the  Gitwangak community?  A      There was protests by neighbouring  business people in the Gitwangak  valley.  They initiated a protest.  They contacted the M.L.A. in the  area.  The taxation people in  Victoria got all exited and they cut  back our quota in January of 1988."  Do you recall having given that evidence?  Yes, I did.  Did the taxation people in Victoria convey their  excitement to you?  Oh, yeah.  They sent in -- they sent in two tax  experts to comb through all of the documents that we  had.  And it was similar -- they walked right into all  the retail stores on the reserve, and they -- they  immediately opened all the books of the retailers and  combed through it, and they went over to another  retailer and did exactly the same thing.  They combed  through all of the -- the records they had.  I'm going to ask you to look at a letter, December 14,  1987, which appears to be addressed to you and signed  by E. J. Turner, Executive Director.  And I ask you  first to acknowledge that you received that letter?  Yes, I did receive that letter.  :  I'd ask that it be marked as the next exhibit, my  lord.  And the copy which I have has three pages, but  the first page is just a faxcom information sheet.  :  586. 6884  G. Williams (For Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Plant  1 THE REGISTRAR:  Exhibit number 586.  2  3 (EXHIBIT 586 - Letter dated December 14, 1987 to G.  4 Williams from E.J. Turner)  5  6 MR. PLANT:  My lord, there's one or two other documents in this  7 sequence that I intend to make reference to, but I  8 might be able to do it more expeditiously if I could  9 organize them over the break.  10 THE COURT:  Yes.  All right.  We'll take the afternoon  11 adjournment.  12 THE REGISTRAR:  Order in court.  Court will recess.  13  14        (PROCEEDINGS ADJOURNED AT 3:00 P.M.)  15  16 I hereby certify the foregoing to be  17 a true and accurate transcript of the  18 proceedings herein to the best of my  19 skill and ability.  20  21  22  23 Leanna Smith  24 Official Reporter  25 United Reporting Service Ltd.  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34 (PROCEEDINGS RESUMED PURSUANT TO AFTERNOON RECESS)  35 THE REGISTRAR:  Order in court.  36 THE COURT:  Mr. Plant.  37 CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR. PLANT:  Yes, thank you, My Lord.  38 Q    I now want to refer you, Mr. Williams, to a copy of  39 a letter under the letterhead of the Gitwangak Band  40 Council dated January 19, 1986 addressed to E.J.  41 Turner, Executive Director, Consumer Taxation Branch,  42 Parliament Buildings, Victoria.  If you turn to the  43 second page you will see that it says "Gitwangak Band  44 Council".  And there is a signature other than your  45 own, but your name is typed in as chief councillor.  46 Was this letter sent on your behalf?  47 A    That's correct. G. Williams (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Plant  1  MR.  PLANT  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  THE  REGIS  11  12  13  14  MR.  PLANT  15  16  17  18  19  THE  COURT  20  MR.  PLANT  21  THE  COURT  22  MR.  PLANT  23  Q  24  25  A  26  Q  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  A  35  Q  36  A  37  Q  38  39  40  41  A  42  Q  43  44  45  46  47  :  I would ask that it be marked as the next exhibit.  I just wanted to say one thing.  There are some  handwritten notes in the upper right-hand corner of  the first page.  And on the second page there is an X  with a circle around it on the right-hand side.  My  instructions are that those were not on the -- those  were comments or notes made by my client, not by the  author of the letter.  I would ask that the letter be  marked.  fRAR:  Exhibit 587.  (EXHIBIT 587: Letter dated January 19, 1986)  :   Now, Mr. Williams, you referred in your evidence to  the history concerning attempts by the Gitwangak Band  to enact a by-law which would survive the disallowance  mechanism.  Do you recall describing the history of  those events?  You mean the fishing by-law?  The fishing by-law, yes.  Yes.  I am just directing you to the fishing by-law that  you described in your evidence?  That's correct.  In the course of the court proceedings which were  constituted by a number of user groups seeking an  injunction restraining the implementation of the most  recent by-law, you filed an affidavit in this court.  And I direct your attention to the document at tab 5  in my book of documents which is the body of the  affidavit without its attachments.  Can you confirm  that?  I am not sure of your question.  I beg your pardon?  I am not sure of your question.  This document at tab 5 in my book of documents is a  copy of the affidavit that you swore in an attempt to  set aside the ex parte injunction that you described  in your evidence yesterday?  Yes, it is.  Now, the first paragraph you say:  "I am the elected Chief Councillor of the  Gitwangak Band of Indians and am one of the  named Defendants in this action.  I am the  secretary of the Gitksan-Wet'suwet'en Tribal 1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  A  9  Q  10  11  12  A  13 MR.  PLANT  14  15  16 MR.  PLANT  17  18 MR.  PLANT  19  Q  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  A  29  Q  30  31  32  A  33  34  Q  35  A  36  Q  37  38  39  40  41  A  42  Q  43  A  44  45  Q  46  47  G. Williams (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Plant  Council Association and as such have personal  knowledge of the matters hereinafter set forth  except where stated to be upon information and  belief and whereso stated I verily believe  them to be true."  That statement is true?  Yes.  At the time that this affidavit was sworn which  appears to be the month of June, 1986, can you confirm  that to me by referring to page 10?  Yes, it is.  :  At this time you had some knowledge concerning the  regulation of the fishery on the Skeena River by the  provincial and federal governments?  :  Regulated by the federal government, not the  province.  Well, let's start with the federal government.  You  had some knowledge of the activities of the federal  government as far as regulating the fisheries?  And I  don't mean by that that you knew the provisions of the  Fisheries Act or the regulations, but that you had  some familiarity with the fact that there were  fisheries officers who were enforcing regulations and  you testified at some length about the impact that  that had on the Gitwangak Band?  I am aware of their alleged regulations.  Were you aware of any involvement by the province in  any form of fishing activity on the Skeena such as  steelhead or other forms of fishing?  Yes, I'm aware that they claim that they have  regulations concerning steelhead.  The province?  Yes, they claim that.  And I think I hear in the careful way that you  phrased that answer a recognition or assertion that  those -- that that claimed is challenged in this court  case, isn't it, to your knowledge?  The claim of the  province to have the power to regulate the fishery?  They allege that they have the power, yes.  And you deny that?  We have our own system of how we regulate the salmon  resource.  Now, the by-law which was the actual subject  matter -- well, let me just refer you to one part of  your affidavit to the exhibits that were attached to G. Williams (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Plant  1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21 THE  22  23 THE  2 4 MR.  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32 THE  33 MR.  34 THE  35 MR.  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  A  Q  A  Q  it.  I have here what I understand to be a copy of  those exhibits.  One of the exhibits in your affidavit  of June 1986 was in turn an affidavit that you had  sworn as band councillor of the Gitwangak Band of  Indians in November 1983.  Please have a look to check  that.  Yes, that's my affidavit.  And attached to that affidavit of 1983 was the 1983  Gitwangak fishing by-law which you referred to in your  evidence in chief?  Yes.  Now, with that in front of you and with the 1986  fishing by-law in front of you which is tab 15 of your  book of documents, I would direct your attention to  the first three clauses in the 1986 by-law which has  been marked 575.  Look at the first three "whereas"  clauses in that and confirm for me that those three  "whereas" clauses do not appear in the Fishing By-Law  of 1983 enacted by the Gitwangak Band?  Yes, they are different.  Are they different in the way that Mr. Plant has  suggested?  WITNESS:  Well, I can't remember your suggestion.  PLANT:  Q    It is really just a matter of having to avoid  cluttering up the record with one more fishing by-law.  There are three whereas clauses, the first three  whereas clauses in 1986, and I just want you to  confirm for me now that you have the 1983 by-law in  front of you that those three clauses don't appear.  That's correct.  Is the 1983 by-law in evidence?  No, My Lord.  Thank you.  A  COURT  A  COURT  PLANT  COURT  PLANT  Q  Now, there are four paragraphs that I would like to  read from your affidavit of June 1986 which is  reproduced at tab 5 of my book.  Do you have that  document in front of you?  A    Yes, I do.  Q    The four paragraphs are 24, 25, 26 and 27 and I am  going to read them and then ask you to confirm them.  "Paragraph 24:  The implementation of the  sports fishery regulation was to..."  Oh, perhaps I should pause there.  There is a sports G. Williams (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Plant  1 fishery regulation that forms part of the 1986 by-law  2 which is Exhibit 575?  3 A    Yes, there is.  4 Q "The implementation of the sports fishery  5 regulation was to allow us to manage the river  6 fishery and obtain some of the benefits  7 from the river fishery.  8 Paragraph 25:  At Gitwangak, the reserve  9 surrounds the mouth of the Kitwanga River  10 where it enters the Skeena which is a prime  11 sports fishery haven.  For the last several  12 years there are hundreds of sports fishermen  13 using this area and none of them have paid for  14 any permits from the Band for entering onto  15 reserve land or using the permit area.  16 Paragraph 25:  It is our full intention to  17 allow such sport fishermen to continue to fish  18 under the terms of the by-law and to pay a  19 licence fee to the Band.  20 Paragraph 27:  It is not our position to  21 replace the permits or licence fees required  22 by the Province but only to ensure that the  23 Band receives some benefit from the  24 resources."  25  26 Have I read those correctly?  27 A    Yes.  28 Q    And those are part of the affidavit that you swore  29 in June of 1986?  30 A    Yes.  31 Q    I am going to change the subject again, Mr.  32 Williams.  You've described in your evidence at some  33 length some of the experiences which you and the  34 Gitwangak Band have had in negotiations with  35 governments and third parties such as the railroad and  36 fishery user groups.  Do you recall giving that  37 evidence?  38 A    Yes.  39 Q    Would I be correct if I said -- or would I correctly  40 be detecting a sense of frustration on your part at  41 what you have felt to be lack of progress from time to  42 time in many of these negotiations?  43 A    Yes, Mr. Plant.  There has been quite a bit of  44 frustration that we are so rich people.  We have all  45 this land and yet we are denied the benefit and the  46 use of our land.  And we are conscious of that in our  47 minds and the chiefs tell us that we have all this 1  2  3  4  5  6  7  Q  8  9  10  11  12  A  13  14  Q  15  16  17  A  18  Q  19  20  A  21  22  23  Q  24  25  26  A  27  28  29  Q  30  A  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  Q  41  42  43  44  A  45  Q  46  47  A  G. Williams (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Plant  land the 22,000 square miles and yet the moment we try  and do something there is injunctions that come down,  the tobacco attack, all those different things come  down against us.  We are always subject to their  policies, their regulations and limitations.  Yes,  there is quite a bit of frustration.  As someone who has had some considerable experience  as a negotiator, would you agree with me that  meaningful negotiations are most likely to take place  in an atmosphere where the parties bargaining with  each other in good faith?  There is nothing to compel other forms of government  to bargaining in good faith.  However, from your point of view, an atmosphere of  good faith and an expectation of good faith is  condusive to good bargaining and good negotiations?  It depends what you mean by "good faith"?  Parties expected -- where the parties expect that  they will honour each other's commitments?  On the part of the native people there is nothing  that compels other forms of government to act in good  faith in our negotiations.  But in your experience, negotiations are more  successful when that atmosphere of good faith and that  expectation is there?  Yes, but they're still subject to a whole bunch of  regulations and policies and limitations.  And just  look at the tobacco attack what happened there.  I am not sure I understand that.  I had promised the Province of B.C. that the first  time there is a tobacco agreement set up in the  Province of B.C., we were the first band to do that.  We forced them to do that.  We spent $30,000  developing negotiations.  And I promised to meet with  them in December of 1987 because to iron out the kinks  to that agreement for the benefit of themselves and  us.  But immediately they came down and cut down our  quota and put pressure on the taxation department.  I  don't think that's good faith.  Well, you've made some reference to the Tobacco Tax  Agreement.  Perhaps we could just look at this again.  It is at tab 10, Exhibit 571.  Could you read clause  8, please, out loud?  Which one is that?  Tab 10 of your book.  Could you read clause 8 then  out loud? 6890  G. Williams (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Plant  1 "This Agreement is made without prejudice to  2 the action of Delgam Uukw v. The Queen.  The  3 parties hereto agree that neither of them  4 shall refer to this agreement or any of the  5 discussions with respect to this agreement in  6 the trial 843/84 or subsequent appeal."  7  8 MR. PLANT:  Thank you.  And now, My Lord, I have no further  9 questions for this witness subject to the delivery of  10 any questions that I might have as a result of the  11 delivery of documents that my friend made today or may  12 make in future as a result of my requests during the  13 course of his evidence in chief.  So I am in your  14 lordship's hands as to how to proceed.  I am told by  15 my friend during the break that he has delivered  16 substantially all of the documents or perhaps it is  17 all of the documents that he expects to be able to  18 deliver pursuant to the requests I've made, but I  19 would leave open my right to re-open that for  20 cross-examination as I am advised on the basis of  21 subsequent disclosure.  As far as the documents that  22 were produced this morning, I will be able to tell  23 your lordship about that tomorrow morning.  24 THE COURT:  All right.  Well, you can raise that question again  25 tomorrow morning.  Mr. Macaulay.  26 MR. MACAULAY:  I can't tell whether my friend is finished his  27 cross-examination or not.  2 8 THE COURT:  No, you can't.  29 MR. GRANT:  I can say this, My Lord, for the record is that is  30 part of the reason I dealt with it in direct this  31 morning.  But I indicated to Mr. Plant that as I  32 recall there was two main areas, one was with respect  33 to the wine and beer store which there was reference  34 to, and that report, that proceeding has been provided  35 to my friend now.  The other was with respect to  36 minutes or packages from these meetings.  And the  37 witness described and in fact one of those documents  38 is now an exhibit for identification.  Another portion  39 of one of those is disclosed.  I believe that in terms  40 of -- unless there are other areas my friend wished me  41 to review and that's just from memory, those are the  42 areas that I had -- that the witness had referred to  43 and that I had investigated.  44 THE COURT:  Well, it's likely that Mr. Plant is probably  45 finished then, isn't it?  I am concerned about Mr.  46 Macaulay's discomfort.  47 MR. PLANT:  I will have a look at the transcript this evening 6891  G. Williams (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Macaulay  1 and if there are further areas where I had hoped for  2 some document disclosure, I will advise my friend.  3 One that comes to mind is the bingo by-law and I don't  4 think the by-law -- it may have been in there.  I  5 don't think that the by-law of the Gitwangak Band has  6 been disclosed so we have a permit supposedly issued  7 under that by-law.  8 THE COURT:  Under the filing of B.  9 MR. GRANT:  And I believe the evidence of the witness was that  10 there was no by-law was tendered.  If there is such a  11 document I can try to arrange to have it delivered.  12 THE COURT:  Thank you.  Mr. Macaulay, does that make you feel  13 more comfortable?  14 MR. MACAULAY:  Well, anything my friend says is helpful in my  15 cross-examination.  16 THE COURT:  All right.  17 CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR. MACAULAY:  18 Q    Mr. Williams, did you give evidence the other day  19 that you do not fish under the provisions of the food  20 fishing permit?  21 A    Yes, I did.  22 Q    I am showing you a -- that's a photocopy of a D.O.F.  23 Indian food fish -- Indian Food Licence covering  the  24 Skeena River upstream from from the confluence of the  25 Legate Creek for the period July 1, 1983 to October 1,  26 1983 seven days a week.  Have you seen that before?  27 The licencee being the Gitwangak Band members.  28 A    I don't recall it.  29 Q    You have no recollection at all of a band licence  30 being issued for 19 -- what is in effect the 1983  31 fishing season, isn't it?  32 A    Yes, it is.  33 Q    Do you recognize the signature?  34 A    Yes, I do.  35 Q    Whose is that?  36 A    That's my signature.  But I don't recall it.  I  37 can't remember.  38 Q    That is your signature?  39 A    Yes, it is.  4 0 MR. MACAULAY:  Can that be marked, My Lord.  41 THE COURT:  58 8.  42 THE REGISTRAR:  588.  43  44 (EXHIBIT 588:  Indian Food Licenc #58855 for July 1, 1983  45 to October 1, 1983 dated June 30, 1983)  46  4 7 MR. MACAULAY: 6892  1  Q  2  3  4  A  5  6  Q  7  8  9  A  10  Q  11  12  13  A  14  Q  15  16  A  17  Q  18  19  20  A  21  Q  22  A  23  24  Q  25  A  26  Q  27  28  A  29  Q  30  A  31  Q  32  33  A  34  Q  35  36  A  37  Q  38  39  A  40  Q  41  42  A  43  44  Q  45  46  47  G. Williams (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Macaulay  Do you recall ever signing such a document for any  year, that is an Indian Food licence, food fishing  licence?  I don't recall it.  I may have, I just don't recall  it.  Do you recall that years ago there were individual  licenses, that is individual people who wanted to do  food fishing got individual licenses?  I recall some individuals.  And do you recall a change-over from individual  licenses to band licenses covering all members of the  band?  I think so, yeah.  And when the change-over came that was in the early  eighties, wasn't it?  It may have, yes.  And when the change-over to a blanket band licence  came, the band council made the arrangements with the  Department of Fisheries?  They probably did, yes.  Well, it wouldn't be the tribal council, would it?  I recall one year in 1979, I believe, that there was  a blanket food fishing permit with the tribal council.  With the tribal council?  Yes.  Were you a member of the tribal council at that time  or an employee of the tribal council then?  I wasn't an employee.  Were you a director?  I may have been, I can't remember.  Now, you have been from time to time the business  manager of the Gitwangak Band Council?  Band manager, yes.  Band manager.  And you were then a full-time paid  employee, were you?  Yes.  Are you a full-time paid employee as chief  councillor up until the other day when you resigned?  Not as councillor, no.  Over the years, how many years did you act as band  manager?  Between probably -- if I had been probably between  12 to 15 months maybe.  And when was the last calendar year in which you  were a band manager for a time?  Was it '88 or '87 or  '86?  What was the last year that you were band  manager? 6893  1  A  2  Q  3  4  A  5  Q  6  7  8  A  9  Q  10  11  A  12  Q  13  14  A  15  16  Q  17  18  A  19  Q  20  21  A  22  Q  23  24  A  25  Q  26  27  A  28  Q  29  30  31  A  32  Q  33  A  34  Q  35  A  36  Q  37  A  38  Q  39  40  41  A  42  Q  43  44  45  A  46  Q  47  G. Williams (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Macaulay  The fall of '85, I believe.  And you supervised the work of 15 to 20 employees of  the band council?  Yes.  And the band council dealt with a large variety of  matters like capital housing, community services,  education, social and so on?  Yes.  And forestry was one of the departments of the band  council?  I don't recall forestry.  Well, under that heading wasn't there training,  silvaculture, contracts, nursery proposals?  There was a silvaculture training in about 1984, I  believe, for six to eight months.  But that was done under the auspices or under the  sponsorship of the band council?  That's correct.  And the band council also dealt with a tree farming  licence applications?  Not that I recall.  You don't ever recall the band council making  applications for tree farm licenses?  Not that I recall.  Now, under -- you were particularily active under  the heading of housing, capital housing, weren't you?  Yes.  And one of the problems that you addressed, and  apparently successfully, was a debt of around $750,000  that was owing for some new housing?  I wouldn't say succesful.  You weren't successful?  It is not completed yet.  It is still going on?  Yes.  So it is still at the negotiation stage, isn't it?  Yes, it is.  And the negotiations are with a view to getting rid  of that debt and providing funds for another 22  housing units?  Yes.  Now that you've resigned as chief councillor, are  you going to be continuing with that or is it somebody  else that takes that on?  Somebody else takes that on.  And the expenditure by the band council in the  average year exceeds a million and a half dollars, 6894  1  2  A  3  Q  4  A  5  Q  6  7  8  A  9  Q  10  11  A  12  Q  13  14  15  A  16  Q  17  A  18  Q  19  20  A  21  Q  22  23  A  24  Q  25  A  26  Q  27  A  28  Q  29  A  30  Q  31  A  32  Q  33  34  A  35  Q  36  37  A  38  Q  39  A  40  Q  41  A  42  Q  43  A  44  45  46  Q  47  G. Williams (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Macaulay  doesn't it?  Yes, it does.  Do you remember what it was in 1986, '87?  It may be around a million and a half dollars.  Now, in addition to the band council's activities,  the tribal council also has a number of programs,  doesn't it?  Yes, it does.  And it deals with a very substantial amount of  money?  There is a large budget, to your knowledge?  I am not too sure exactly what the budget is.  One of the things that it does is in co-operation  with two other tribal councils runs the Northern  Native Fishing Co-op?  Co-op.  Corporation.  Corporation, yes.  That involves -- that did involve the purchase of a  large number of boats from a fishing company?  That's correct.  And those boats are now owned by the corporation or  by individual Gitksan, I think?  I am not too exactly sure who owns them.  Were you ever a commercial fisherman?  Do you mean by the coast?  On the coast?  No.  Was your father a commercial fisherman?  Yes, he was.  And you never went to the coast with him?  Yes, I did.  How old were you when you stopped going to the coast  with him?  Probably around 12, 13.  Did you work in the forest industry, either cutting  poles or doing anything like that to do with forests?  Not in a forest, I worked in a sawmill.  At Kitwanga?  That's right.  Is that the sawmill that is now called Westar?  That's correct.  And how long did you work at the sawmill?  Maybe a year, a year and a half.  I had two summer  jobs there.  I don't think I worked there more than a  year and a half.  But that was summer jobs, was it, while you were a  student? 6895  1  A  2  3  4  Q  5  A  6  Q  7  8  9  A  10  Q  11  12  A  13  Q  14  15  A  16  Q  17  18  19  A  20  21  Q  22  23  A  24  Q  25  A  26  Q  27  A  28  29  Q  30  A  31  Q  32  A  33  Q  34  35  A  36  37  Q  38  39  40  A  41  Q  42  A  43  Q  44  45  A  46  Q  47  G. Williams (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Macaulay  I had two summers I worked there as a student and  then after I finished high school I worked there for  about a year and a half.  How long is it since you've worked there, 15 years?  No, '79.  '79.  After 1979, after you finished working at  Westar at that mill, did you become an employee of the  tribal council?  In about 1983 I did, yes.  And how long did you continue as an employee of the  tribal council?  About eight months.  And is it after that that you became active with the  band council?  Yes, I did.  Now, quite a considerable number of members of the  band, of the Gitwangak Band, are commercial fishermen;  is that right?  I wouldn't say a considerable amount.  I think there  is about 25 to 30.  And a larger number than that work full time at the  two sawmills on the reserve?  Two sawmills?  There is only one.  Are there two forest industries on the reserve?  No, there is only just the one Westar mill.  There is no other local mill?  There is one in the Kitwanga Valley, but none of our  band members work there.  How far away from the village is that?  About three miles.  How many of the band members work at Westar?  I would say between 50 and 60.  How many heads -- how many families are there,  family units, father, mother, children in the band?  I would say about at least 130 and probably more.  I  am just guessing at that.  Do any of the members of the band work at -- in the  forest industry outside of the Westar sawmill, that is  in logging operations or up at Hazelton?  All I know is just one member.  Only one?  Only one.  Does he work at Hazelton or work for a logging  outfit?  He works for a logging outfit north of Kitwanga.  And if you have a full-time job at Westar the income  is fairly high, isn't it?  Union rates? 6896  G. Williams (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Macaulay  1 A    Oh, yes.  2 Q    And there is no income tax?  3 A    That's correct.  4 MR. MACAULAY:  So that a band member who works at Westar has a  5 considerable advantage over the average IWA worker?  6 MR. GRANT:  Well, My Lord, I don't know what the point of it is.  7 It depends on one's perspectives of advantages and  8 disadvantages and what relevance is it to this case as  9 to whether or not the band member has the advantage.  10 He has got the evidence out about the tax exemptions.  11 THE COURT:  He has an isolated financial advantage.  12 MR. GRANT:  An isolated advantage so long as he's living in  13 intolerable housing conditions this witness has  14 testified to.  15 MR. MACAULAY:  Is that evidence, My Lord?  16 THE COURT:  I think it is.  It is pretty close to intolerable  17 for some.  18 MR. MACAULAY:  19 Q    Do you know what the average annual income is for  20 someone who works at the Gitwangak sawmill?  21 A    It would be in the 20,000 probably.  22 MR. MACAULAY:  Now, you gave evidence about some feasts --  23 THE COURT:  If you are changing the subject, Mr. Macaulay, do  24 you think we should adjourn?  25 MR. MACAULAY:  I am not really changing the subject, but —  26 THE COURT:  You carry on until it is convenient.  2 7 MR. MACAULAY:  28        Q    Particularily the funeral feast of Maggie Johnson,  2 9 do you remember that evidence?  30 A    Yes.  31 Q    She was a very important person in Kitwancool?  32 A    Yes, she was.  33 Q    Was she a high chief?  34 A    Yes.  35 Q    The first chief of her house?  36 A    Yes.  37 Q    And accordingly there was a funeral that fitted her  38 station, her high station?  39 A    Yes.  40 Q    And according to the financial record, some $25,0000  41 in round figures was gathered in and distributed or  42 paid out at that feast; is that right?  43 A    Yes, for that one feast.  44 Q    For that one feast?  45 A    Yes.  46 Q    Is that the average level of expenditure for a  47 funeral feast? 6897  1  A  2  3  4  5  Q  6  7  A  8  Q  9  10  11  A  12  13  Q  14  A  15  Q  16  17  A  18 MR. I  4ACA1  19  20  21  G. Williams (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Macaulay  There are some feasts that are higher in the  neighbourhood of $34,000.  I have heard of feasts up  to $40,000 and there is some that are lower than that  as well.  Does the expenditure depend on the importance of the  person?  Yes, it does.  Now, Mr. Robert Wright, for instance, a good deal  less money was spent on his funeral feast; is that  right?  I am not sure what amount was spent on there.  I  can't remember the amount.  It may well have been.  Mr. Wright, did he live at Kitwancool or Kitwanga?  He lived at Kitwancool.  And the money that is spent on these feasts is  raised from all those people listed in the funeral?  Yes.  jAY:  Does it represent a significant part of the  contributor's income?  You could take a look at --  perhaps you can look at the Maggie Johnson Feast Book.  Did those contributions represent --  22 THE REGISTRAR:  Tab 3, Exhibit 559.  2 3 MR. MACAULAY:  24 Q    Represent a significant portion of the contributor's  25 income?  26 A    Yes, it does.  27 Q    How often in a lifetime -- for instance, Gordon  28 Johnson has paid a thousand dollars cash in this case.  29 How often in his lifetime would he have to support  30 that kind of expense?  31 A    Ever since Gordon took the name in 1963 he has  32 probably paid -- had a number of feasts where members  33 of his house have died, and he has probably  34 contributed a substantial amount in feasts.  A  35 significant amount of your income goes to feasts.  3 6 Q    If you have a name?  37 A    If you have a name.  38 MR. MACAULAY:  Well, I could go on, My Lord.  39 THE COURT:  Just let me make sure of one thing.  This $1,000  40 that Mr. Johnson contributed, he wouldn't get that  41 back?  42 THE WITNESS:  No, he wouldn't.  43 THE COURT:  That money would be collected and distributed to the  44 guests?  45 THE WITNESS:  The guests and the expenses.  4 6 THE COURT:  And the expenses?  47 THE WITNESS:  Yes. 689?  1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  G. Williams (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Macaulay  THE COURT:  All right.  We will adjourn then until 10 o'clock  tomorrow morning.  I take it we won't be all day  tomorrow or will we?  MR. MACAULAY:  I expect to be an hour to an hour and a half.  My  friend has some re-examination, but I think we will be  finished before the day is over.  MR. GRANT:  Well, unless Mr. Plant wishes to do anything further  with these few documents, I would anticipate we would  be finished at noon hour.  THE COURT:  You don't want to call another witness tomorrow  afternoon?  MR. GRANT:  I think it would make more sense to stop.  MR. PLANT:  On that last subject, My Lord, I don't know who the  next witness is.  While your lordship is --  THE COURT:  Perhaps Mr. Grant will tell you.  MR. GRANT:  Yes, it will be Mr. Sterritt, Mr. Neil Sterritt.  THE COURT:  And that's scheduled for a week Monday?  MR. GRANT:  That's what we had anticipated if Mr. Williams is  through that he would commence a week Monday.  THE COURT:  All right.  Thank you.  THE REGISTRAR:  Order in court, court will adjourn to 10 a.m.  (PROCEEDINGS ADJOURNED TO 10 a.m. June 3, 1988)  I hereby certify the foregoing  transcript to be a true and  accurate transcript of the  proceedings herein transcribed to  the best of my skill and ability.  LISA FRANKO, OFFICIAL REPORTER  UNITED REPORTING SERVICE LTD.


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