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Delgamuukw Trial Transcripts

[Proceedings of the Supreme Court of British Columbia 1988-06-30] British Columbia. Supreme Court Jun 30, 1988

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 7470  N. Sterritt (for Plaintiffs)  In Chief by Mr. Rush  1 Vancouver B.C.  2 June 30, 198 8.  3  4 (PROCEEDINGS RESUMED PURSUANT TO ADJOURNMENT)  5  6 THE REGISTRAR:  In the Supreme Court of British Columbia this  7 Thursday June 30, 1988, calling Delgamuukw versus Her  8 Majesty the Queen.  I caution the witness you are  9 still under oath.  10 THE COURT:  Mr. Rush.  11 MR. RUSH:  My lord, before we get underway, I'd like to make a  12 proposal to the court.  It's after some reflection as  13 a result of yesterday's ruling the plaintiffs have  14 instructed counsel to propose to the court that we  15 adjourn the evidence of Neil Sterritt to the fall  16 after the completion of the review of the photos.  I  17 think it's clear to counsel that the cross of Mr.  18 Sterritt could not finish by the end of next week even  19 if it started.  It's also clear from Mr. Goldie's  20 submission yesterday that the defendants will be  21 insisting on their 60 days prior notice before the  22 calling or at least the completing of Mr. Sterritt's  23 expert opinion.  24 MR. GOLDIE:  With respect, my lord, that wasn't my proposal.  25 MR. RUSH:  No, that wasn't your proposal.  You were insisting on  26 the 60 days period before you started your cross.  27 MR. GOLDIE:  No, not at all.  Not at all.  I said the term of  28 the order should be that the witness be allowed to  29 proceed and when he completes his examination in  30 chief, that his cross-examination be deferred.  31 MR. RUSH:  Well, in my submission, that amounts to the same  32 thing, despite my friend's shaving.  It is also the  33 case that Mr. Sterritt's alteration in status has  34 caused us to review the question of the production of  35 documents and the tendering of documents through him  36 and we've been grappling with the difficulty of  37 introducing documents in an expeditious way and I  38 think the question of the photographs is an example of  39 what we -- what the plaintiffs consider is an  40 important element of the case, but having to introduce  41 those documents in a way that we have been doing has  42 taken some considerable court time and we frankly  43 don't see a way around it short of attempting an  44 out-of-court summary and a way of integrating the  45 photographs together with affidavit evidence that's  46 been introduced.  And I should advise your lordship  47 that it is our intention to proceed with the review of 7471  N. Sterritt (for Plaintiffs)  In Chief by Mr. Rush  1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  THE COURT  MR. RUSH:  THE COURT  MR. RUSH:  THE COURT  these photographs by further directing Mr. Sterritt to  the photographs and then to the affidavits which have  been filed in evidence, and we have been looking at a  way of trying to expedite that, and it's our present  view that the question of the introduction of further  documents through Mr. Sterritt together with designing  a more expeditious way of introducing the photographic  together with the affidavit evidence would be assisted  by not continuing with his direct at the moment and  designing that method of bringing the evidence before  the court and doing that in the fall.  So we are  looking in effect for a more unified way of directing  documentary evidence to your lordship, now that Mr.  Sterritt's evidence is that of an opinion giver.  And  so it's our proposal that following the day's evidence  today or at the completion of -- we are trying to find  a holistic review of one phase of the photographs  following that, and I think we will be dealing with  photograph book one and two, that the direct evidence  of Mr. Sterritt be adjourned and next week we continue  with the court time in the review of the video  evidence of the commission witnesses.  :  Well, you've preempted me, Mr. Rush, in this sense  that I was going to inform counsel this morning - and  this may be not of particular significance now - I was  going to say that some plans that I was formerly -- of  which I was formerly a captive have changed and that I  was prepared to sit into the following week to finish  Mr. Sterritt.  But that would depend on Mr. Goldie's  position at the end of the evidence in chief.  I must  say I certainly prefer to finish Mr. Sterritt if at  all possible.  I can understand the wish of the  plaintiffs to keep his evidence in chief open if the  cross-examination was being put off, but if Mr. Goldie  found himself able to cross-examine at the end of the  chief, I was becoming anxious to see it finished.  Now, I don't know what that -- what effect that has on  what you just said, Mr. Rush.  Well -- well, our reading of the pace of the  evidence, my lord, was that because your lordship was  not available after the end of next week, and I think  you made that very clear to us --  :  Yes.  -- that after Friday of next week that that was our  week's extension.  And it was my -- I have been  working on the assumption perhaps incorrectly --  :  No.  Correctly up till now. 7472  N. Sterritt (for Plaintiffs)  In Chief by Mr. Rush  1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  MR. RUSH:  -- that you wouldn't be available after that.  And as  well that our reading of the cross-examination and the  length that it was likely to take, given the previous  pace of cross-examination, is that it wouldn't  complete next week, and therefore it followed for us  that it wouldn't be desirable to start it and  therefore followed for us the submission I made this  morning about taking the time rather than utilizing  this -- the time of now in going through the  photographs and relating those to the affidavits as we  intend to do, that to do that in a way which is more  expeditious.  THE COURT:  Can that not be done by — in writing?  MR. RUSH:  Well, that was one of our thoughts.  It may well be  able to be done by writing and I think that the  difficulty and I -- in some senses I can understand my  learned friend's inability to relate to the Gitksan  names.  But I think now with the affidavits they have  a foundation point, if you will, to relate to those  names.  And so it is our intention to explore that as  one such a way of expediting the whole photographic --  the entry of these photographs, because the admissions  that we have to date, my lord, are not sufficient for  us to prove what is in our view what's needed to be  proved from these photographs.  Well, I take it what you are saying, Mr. Rush, is  that what I have just said doesn't change your  proposal.  Well, my lord, I think the instructions that we have  taken was based on your lordship's availability in a  perception of your lordship's availability and  discussions were had on the assumptions that we were  working under and if those assumptions are incorrect,  then I think we should -- we are going to have to take  new instructions.  THE COURT:  All right.  Mr. Goldie, or Mr. Macaulay, anything  you want to say about Mr. Rush's submission?  MR. GOLDIE:  Well, my lord, my interjection with respect to the  60 days, I wanted to make it clear, because it was a  suggestion that your lordship make an order which I  understood you did make under Section 11 1(b) of the  Evidence Act, that the notice required by statute  would be -- would be waived on the condition that or  on a term that the evidence in chief be completed and  that an opportunity -- and that the witness be  deferred for such time as was necessary in order to  prepare for the cross-examination.  And I think I -- I  THE COURT  MR. RUSH: 7473  N. Sterritt (for Plaintiffs)  In Chief by Mr. Rush  1 believe I indicated in a fairly short way the impact  2 of map 9A and the -- the inter-relationship of map 9A  3 and the affidavits.  Certainly I could have started a  4 cross-examination; we prepared for Mr. Sterritt's  5 cross-examination as layman and I could have got into  6 that.  Our experience is that -- I think it was Mr.  7 Williams who spoke to the greatest number of  8 affidavits and our experience is that the time  9 required to relate the affidavits, the ground, the  10 previous evidence and so on, took two people  11 practically the -- well, more than the 14 days which  12 was allowed, because fortunately Mr. Williams'  13 examination didn't take place on the 14th day.  Mr.  14 Sterritt's -- the affidavits filed and the territories  15 that are involved here are almost one and a half times  16 those of Mr. Williams' affidavit.  I really can't make  17 any submission, my lord, with respect to the way in  18 which my friends propose to relate these matters or  19 tie these matters together.  All I have to say is that  20 if we start in the fall with Mr. Sterritt completing  21 his examination in chief, I want to be in a position  22 to continue -- to start the cross-examination and to  23 finish it then and there.  Now, that means that if my  24 friend is going to change the way in which he's  25 dealing with it, then we must have adequate notice of  26 that.  I can't start all over again with a new opinion  27 or summary of an opinion.  I can't start all over  28 again with some new version of how this is to be done.  29 Now, so far as the Gitksan names in the photographs  30 are concerned, as I said yesterday we have admitted  31 the authenticity of the great majority of the  32 photographs and all my friend needs to do is to put a  33 couple of questions on the Gitksan names on the  34 photocopies and then it's left to us.  But I can't  35 really make any comment.  I have a sense that we may  36 have to come to your lordship in the course of the  37 summer if there is some major alteration in the way  38 things have now been set up.  39 THE COURT:  Well, I am not sure that Mr. Rush is saying that the  40 course he is now considering is going to involve any  41 requirement for further notice under the Evidence Act.  42 At least I didn't understand Mr. Rush to be saying  43 that.  Perhaps I misunderstood you, Mr. Rush.  4 4    MR. RUSH:  No, you didn't.  45 THE COURT:  No.  All right.  Mr. Macaulay.  46 MR. MACAULAY:  My lord, since we follow Mr. Goldie's  47 cross-examination, it's difficult for me to say that 7474  N. Sterritt (for Plaintiffs)  In Chief by Mr. Rush  1 we'll -- that we should continue for the next two  2 weeks with this witness, although that's our  3 preference.  The matters on which we will be examining  4 Mr. Sterritt aren't really affected that much by the  5 late delivery of the opinions.  We will be able to  6 undertake our cross-examination next week or the week  7 after, whatever as the case may be.  And from our  8 point of view it's desirable that the witness -- any  9 witness, not just Mr. Sterritt, but any witness finish  10 his evidence all in one piece and be cross-examined  11 and then be excused.  It's a lot easier to follow; I  12 submit it may be easier for the court to follow, too,  13 to grapple with that evidence.  I am not sure what Mr.  14 Rush -- at least I understood Mr. Rush was addressing  15 himself to the business of proving the photographs in  16 some different --  17 THE COURT:  Relating the photographs to the affidavit.  18 MR. MACAULAY:  Yes.  In a more convenient way.  Well, that  19 shouldn't -- I don't know -- if that would require Mr.  20 Sterritt to come back and give some further evidence  21 and then be cross-examined on that narrow point, so be  22 it.  This case is taking so much time that we have to  23 take every opportunity to use every available week of  24 your lordship's time so that we don't find ourselves  25 this time next year winding the case down so to speak.  26 THE COURT:  Well, I think we should carry on with the case  27 today.  Mr. Rush has said that he will review his  28 position in light of my disclosures.  I regret that it  29 wasn't available for me to make that statement sooner.  30 I was captive to other arrangements which have now  31 gone by the -- by the by, happily for me.  So I am  32 here and the only other thing I can do is take some  33 holidays and I would rather finish Mr. Sterritt.  34 MR. GOLDIE:  Well, I should say that I had assumed that we would  35 be finished on the 8th of July.  36 THE COURT:  Yes.  Well —  37 MR. GOLDIE:  And there are some things which I couldn't say now  38 I can change.  I can certainly find out, but I can't  39 say now I could change.  40 THE COURT:  All right.  Well, Mr. Rush is going to look at his  41 situation.  Mr. Goldie is adding another complication  42 to it.  So I think when you both examine your  43 situations sufficiently you will speak to the matter  44 again, which I suppose it will have to be -- well,  45 either late in the day or Monday morning.  46 MR. MACAULAY:  We are ready to proceed any day in July or  4 7 August. All right.  You hav  A  Yes.  Q  -- in front of you?  A  Yes.  Q  Thank you.  Now, I  7475  N. Sterritt (for Plaintiffs)  In Chief by Mr. Rush  1 THE COURT:  Yes.  2 MR. GOLDIE:  Well, I certainly can't say that.  I am trying --  3 MR. MACAULAY:  Prepared to cancel anything there is.  4 MR. GOLDIE:  Well, I have -- well, I -- there are some things  5 that I simply cannot make that statement about.  6 THE COURT:  Yes.  All right.  Let's go ahead with the evidence.  7  8 EXAMINATION IN CHIEF BY MR. RUSH (Continued):  9 Q   Now, I wonder if you would refer back to Volume 1,  10 please, of the photographs.  I am going to ask Madam  11 Registrar to place the volume of affidavits that has  12 been tendered to the court before Mr. Sterritt as  13 well.  I think we left off, Mr. Sterritt, on page 45.  14 I am going to direct you now to page 46 of Volume 1.  15  16  17  18  19 Q   Thank you.  Now, I am going to ask you if you will,  20 please, to look at photographs three and four and ask  21 you if you can identify those photographs for his  22 lordship.  23 A   Yes.  This is a station on the east side of the Skeena  24 and north of Mosque, M-o-s-q-u-e, River.  And in  25 station -- pardon me, in photograph three and four I  26 am looking northeasterly towards Alma Peak and in  27 photograph three and Grossman Peak in photograph four  28 and Grossman Peak is well up the Skeena.  It's very  29 close to Mika dee aa, Duti River.  That's M-i-k-a  30 d-e-e and a-a.  The last -- there are three different  31 words there and Duti River is spelled D-u-t-i.  32 Q   Mr. Sterritt, which of those peaks that are shown  33 on -- well, I guess photos three and four, first  34 three, which one of those is Alma Peak?  35 A   The peak just down to the right of the label on the  36 photograph, just below it and to the right.  37 Q   And Grossman on four?  38 A   Right underneath the label is a number of -- there is  39 a mountain almost the width of the label and Grossman  40 Peak is under the label.  41 Q   So that's the mountain feature that's directly under  42 the label, is that right?  43 A   Yes.  44 Q   All right.  Now, if you will please turn to page 47.  45 A   Yes.  46 Q   Mr. Sterritt, is this still on station seven?  47 A   Yes, it is. 7476  N. Sterritt (for Plaintiffs)  In Chief by Mr. Rush  1  Q  2  3  A  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  Q  11  A  12  13  14  15  16  17    I  MR. GOLD  18  A  19    I  MR. RUSH  20  Q  21  A  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  Q  34  35  36  A  37  Q  38  A  39  Q  40  41  42  43  44  A  45  Q  46  47  And in photo two reference is made to Sganis wii gaak.  What is Sganis wii gaak, please?  That is a mountain in the -- or the mountain right  under the label there is a whole range of snow cap  peaks there and all of that is Sganis wii gaak and  that is spelled S-g-a-n-i-s is one word, w-i-i another  word, g-a-a-k another word.  On the map that would be  Mosque, M-o-s-q-u-e, Mountain and that is within the  territory of Wii gaak, my father.  All right.  The valley that -- and this -- this territory is  described in the affidavit of my father, Neil  Sterritt.  The boundary between the territory of Wii  minosik, which is where we are standing in the  picture, and Mosque Mountain, is at the very valley  bottom and runs from left to right across the picture.  EI:  Number two?  This is in photograph number two.  Is it also in photograph number three?  In that photograph we are looking from the same  station to the east and you can see parts of -- for  the ease of the reporter I'll use the English  designation there.  Mosque River.  M-o-s-q-u-e.  And  you can see it winding.  It goes towards the left of  the picture and then to the right and that is Mosque  River, Xsu winhl hliiyuun, X-s-u one word, w-i-n-h-1  another, h-1-i-i-y-u-u-n.  It's Mosque River.  Yes.  That's -- and that continues to be the boundary  between Wii minosik on the north side or on the left  side of that picture and Wii gaak on the south side or  the right side.  All right.  Is another spelling for Xsu winhl  hliiyuun, is it possible to spell it X-s-e, new word  g-w-i-n?  Yes.  New word h-1-i-i-y-u-u-n?  Yes.  Okay.  I want to direct you, Mr. Sterritt, to Exhibit  601 which is the affidavit of your father Neil B.  Sterritt.  It's at tab ten of the Gitksan affidavits  in the Gitksan affidavit volume.  If you will take  that out, please, and refer to page 4.  Yes.  Under mountains and mountains -- mountain areas,  number eight are the words Sganis wii gaak and it's  identified as Mosque Mountain? 7477  N. Sterritt (for Plaintiffs)  In Chief by Mr. Rush  1 A   That's the same mountain that's referred to on  2 photograph number two page 47 of the photograph album  3 number one.  And the --  4 Q   You also referred to number seven river Xsu winhl  5 hliiyuun?  6 A   That's right.  7 Q   And I have just given that spelling a moment ago.  And  8 it's identified as Mosque River also known as Moose  9 River.  Is that the same Mosque River you have made  10 mention a moment ago?  11 A   Yes, it is.  12 Q   Moose River, Mr. Sterritt, when you -- do you know or  13 has it been told to you that Mosque River has this  14 other name?  15 A   Yes.  Hliiyuun means -- that's spelled  16 h-1-i-i-y-u-u-n.  Hliiyuun means after they kill  17 caribou or moose they would soak the moose hides in  18 the river before they tan them.  And that's where the  19 name comes from and that's why it's actually known as  20 Moose River.  How the designation Mosque River got on  21 it I don't know.  22 Q   All right.  Thank you.  Now, on page 48 if you will  23 please turn there.  24 A   I should mention that these are many of the names  25 within the territory of Wii gaak in this affidavit.  26 They don't necessarily all appear on the map of the  27 territory of Wii gaak, my father.  But many of -- the  28 key ones do and particularly the boundary areas and  29 features from here to there in between.  There are  30 also other names that do not appear in the affidavit  31 that go on the territory.  32 Q   Mr. Sterritt, in the photographs, just while you are  33 referring to photograph 47, when you placed Gitksan  34 names on these photocopies of these photographs, did  35 you place a Gitksan name on every feature that you  36 knew on the photograph?  37 A   No, I did not.  I -- in some cases there would have  38 been too many.  I identified a few of them and then  39 left it at that.  40 Q   All right.  I guess I should ask you as well whether  41 or not you placed the English names of features that  42 you knew to be described on a government map.  Did you  43 place all of those on these?  44 A   Yes, I did.  45 Q   Now, if you'll turn, please, to page --  46 MR. GOLDIE:  Excuse me.  I didn't quite follow that.  Where did  47 the English names -- where were they placed? 7478  N. Sterritt (for Plaintiffs)  In Chief by Mr. Rush  1 MR. RUSH:  Okay.  2 Q   My question to you, Mr. Sterritt, just to perhaps be  3 clear in my question, is:  In respect of places shown  4 on the photographs, and I am here speaking generally  5 but we can take the example of photographs on page 47,  6 did you place every English name that you knew from a  7 map on the photograph?  8 A   No, I didn't.  I simply tried to help to locate the  9 viewer, any subsequent viewer of the photographs so  10 they would know where they were and I added a few of  11 the features, like photograph number one page 47  12 Skeena River to Duti River, and you can see actually  13 in each of those four photographs on page 47 there is  14 reference to feature that will appear on a map with an  15 English name.  16 Q   All right.  Thank you.  Now, there has not been an  17 admission with regard to the scene depicted in  18 photograph one and the seen depicted in photograph two  19 on page 48.  Can you assist in identifying on page 48  20 the scene shown in photos one and two?  21 A   Yes.  In the very foreground of the picture is the  22 meadow on the mountain where we were placed at the  23 station.  There is another ridge next to that.  And  24 then just beyond that there is a long ridge running  25 from that centre ridge all the way out of the picture  26 to the left.  That is a hill that is known as An  27 doosdahl dak.  That's spelled A-n one word,  28 d-o-o-s-d-a-h-1, another word, d-a-k.  And that hill  29 is to the south of the Mosque River.  30 Q   Okay.  31 A  And we are looking here, we are looking east up along  32 across some hills and to part of the Mosque River as  33 it runs towards the east.  34 Q   All right.  In the photocopy you have indicated a hill  35 as An doosdahl dak.  Is that a correct designation for  36 that hill?  37 A   Yes.  What it means is there is a lake actually to the  38 right of the centre hill down on the valley bottom and  39 what An doosdahl dak means is on the other side of the  40 lake and that's what the name of that hill is.  41 MR. GOLDIE:  Well, the index indicates that it's Bird Hill Area.  42 Can that be identified?  4 3    MR. RUSH:  44 Q   The index indicates, Mr. Sterritt, that the view  45 toward -- and it's E, I take it, for east and in  46 brackets Bird Hill Area.  Do you have the index handy?  47 It might be useful just to extract the index from the 7479  N. Sterritt (for Plaintiffs)  In Chief by Mr. Rush  1  2  A  3  4  5  1  6  7  MR.  GOLDIE  8  A  9  THE  COURT:  10  A  11  THE  COURT:  12  A  13  14  15  MR.  RUSH:  16  Q  17  18  A  19  20  21  THE  COURT:  22  A  23  THE  COURT:  24  A  25  THE  COURT:  26  27  A  28  THE  COURT:  29  A  30  THE  COURT:  31  A  32  33  34  ]  35  36  THE  COURT:  37  38  39  A  40  41  THE  COURT:  42  A  43  THE  COURT:  44  A  45  46  THE  COURT:  47  MR.  RUSH:  volume.  I think that An doosdahl dak runs out to the end and  there is a snowy area on a mountain on that same ridge  as the extension and I could check on the map and An  doosdahl dak and Bird Hill are the same -- are the  same at the east end.  :  At the east end?  At the east ends of it.  I'll just check on the map.  We are looking east?  You are looking east.  So doesn't it have a north and a south end?  The ridge itself runs east and west and so it would  end at the Mosque River on the north side and by the  lake An doosdahl dak on the south side.  So you are going to point to this on the overlay map,  660?  Okay.  This -- this feature here is the Mosque River.  The hill that I am referring to is this hill right  here and Bird Hill is right at the end of it.  Are we looking at page 48?  Page 48.  Yes.  The top two pictures?  Photograph number one.  Does this An doosdahl dak or Bird Hill show in that  photograph?  In photograph number one?  Yes.  Yes, it does.  The ridges there seen across the photograph?  It's the angle -- well, it runs -- the ridge will  actually run slightly north of east, but not much.  And I am at an angle looking -- I would be looking  more slightly south of east than directly east.  That's why you would have that impression there.  And is Bird Hill at the end of the -- what I would  call the third, second or third ridge in that  photograph?  You start with the one we are on.  One, two, three,  four.  The fourth one?  On the very left edge of the photograph.  Yes.  All right.  The fourth ridge there is four distinct ridges as you  go up.  Yes.  All right.  Thank you. 7480  N. Sterritt (for Plaintiffs)  In Chief by Mr. Rush  1 Q   Mr. Sterritt, I certainly would be assisted, and  2 perhaps his lordship would be, if you take this red  3 pen here and tell us -- put an A for An doosdahl dak.  4 A   The area of the hill that is An doosdahl dak is from  5 there to there.  And Anda gansgotsinak -- this is Bird  6 Hill, right here, and it's also over on the other side  7 of it is Anda gansgotsinak.  Anda gansgotsinak is  8 A-n-d-a space g-a-n-s-g-o-t-s-i-n-a-k.  And that  9 refers to an area of ants.  10 Q   That's a-n-t-s?  11 A   Yes.  A-n-t-s.  I thought you were trying to spell the  12 word.  13 Q   Mr. Sterritt, photograph two on that page?  14 A   Yes.  15 Q   What is the view that's depicted there?  16 A   Here what I am doing is panning around to the north  17 and you can see Bird Hill just to the right of centre  18 as the uppermost mountain there with some snow cover.  19 It's just to the right of centre.  In this case it  20 would be one, two, three -- fourth ridge up again.  21 And that's Bird Hill.  22 Q   All right.  And which one of those peaks is Anda  23 gansgotsinak?  24 A  Well, Anda gansgotsinak is just on the east end of  25 Bird Hill.  So you can almost see it at the end there  26 where that ridge ends just about dead centre of the  27 picture.  28 Q   Okay.  Would it be fair to say it's directly below the  29 S in Anda gansgotsinak?  30 A   Under the A.  31 Q   Under the A.  All right.  32 MR. GOLDIE:  Would it be appropriate then to change the  33 description in the index from "Southpass Peak not  34 visible" to "Bird Hill centre"?  35 A   Yes, you could do that.  36 MR. GOLDIE:  Well, my concern, my lord, is to try and ensure  37 that the index is accurate so we don't have to waste  38 any time on it.  3 9    MR. RUSH:  40 Q   Mr. Sterritt, the index indicates a view toward east  41 and then it says "Southpass Peak not visible."  42 A   Yes.  We can't see Southpass Peak in here, but you  43 could -- yes, you could put "Bird Hill" there.  44 Q   Where is Southpass Peak in relation to this  45 photograph?  46 A   It's -- it would be to the left of Bird Hill, would go  47 up into the left. 7481  N. Sterritt (for Plaintiffs)  In Chief by Mr. Rush  1  Q  2  3  A  4  Q  5  A  6  Q  7  8  9  A  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  Q  22  23  A  24  25  26  THE  COURT  27  28  A  29  30  31  32  33  THE  COURT  34  35  A  36  37  38  MR.  RUSH:  39  Q  40  THE  COURT  41  A  42  43  THE  COURT  44  45  THE  COURT  46  A  47  It's in -- you say it's in the view of this photograph  but not visible because of other features that are --  Yes.  -- in the way?  Yes.  Thank you.  Now, if you will turn to page 49, and I  would ask you to identify, if you will, photograph one  on 49.  Photograph one is -- we are airborne.  We have just  left the last station and we are moving down -- down  the Skeena and the photograph is west.  The valley in  the very centre of the photograph is a creek that runs  out right to Slamgeesh Lake.  And the creek that runs  out towards you is called Xsi maxhla lax uut.  There  should be -- on the photograph there should be an  l-a-x added.  That's X-s-i m-a-x-h-1-a and then space  l-a-x and then space u-u-t.  There is no English name  for that creek.  But we are looking at the very bottom  of the picture, just out of the picture is the Skeena  River.  And there are two other features identified by Gitksan  names.  One is Xsugwa sak?  Xsguwa sak is X-s-u-g-w-a one word s-a-k and Xsugwa  sak is actually the Slamgeesh River as it runs out to  Slamgeesh Lake.  :  Where does it run into, Slamgeesh Lake into the  Skeena or the other route?  Xsugwa sak is a creek that runs right from the -- from  this point southwesterly to pass right just below  Slamgeesh Lake and then continues on from there as  Slamgeesh.  There the name of the creek changes from  Slamgeesh to -- from Xsugwa sak to Slamgeesh.  :  I am still not clear whether it drains into the  Skeena or it goes the other way?  Yes. Slamgeesh drains into the Skeena. Xsugwa sak  goes into the Slamgeesh and the Slamgeesh goes into  the Skeena.  All right.  You are looking at 660.  :  Can you put your finger on Slamgeesh Lake?  The flight lines go all over top of it.  Slamgeesh  Lake is right in the area, right in that area.  :  All right.  It's under the printing actually.  Right  in there.  :  All right.  Thank you.  Now, on page 49 photograph number four, you should  delete that imprint on the bottom where it says Xsi 7482  N. Sterritt (for Plaintiffs)  In Chief by Mr. Rush  1  2  3  MR. RUSH:  4  Q  5  ]  6  7  A  8  Q  9  10  11  A  12  Q  13  A  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  Q  23  24  A  25  Q  26  27  A  28  29  Q  30  A  31  Q  32  MR. GOLDIE  33  34  A  35  MR. GOLDIE  36  A  37  MR. RUSH:  38  Q  39  40  A  41  42  Q  43  44  45  46  47  A  luu wagooxst, X-s-i 1-u-u w-a-g-o-o-x-s-t.  That  should be deleted.  Now, Mr. Sterritt, while you are on four, it looks to  my eye that one and four are close to being a similar  view.  Am I right about that?  Yes.  And you have identified Notchtop Peak in four and then  you've said Xsugwa sak, the creek you have been  referring to, is behind Notchtop Mountain?  Yes.  And is there a Gitksan name for Notchtop Peak?  That is Naa'ahl ta'ada.  That's N-a-a-'-a-h-1 space  t-a-'-a-d-a.  And it is the mountain from the centre  of the picture running all the way out of the picture  to the left and it carries on right down to the  junction of the Skeena and the Sustut River, which  will be our next photo location, and that height of  land is the boundary between Wii minosik on this side  and Gwinin nitxw, G-w-i-n-i-n space n-i-t-x-w.  And  runs all along the mountain top there.  Would that make the Gwinin nitxw territory to the west  of Naa'ahl ta'ada?  Yes.  And Wii minosik to the east.  Now, in photos one and two you identified a feature as  Sagat and is that feature shown in the photograph?  Yes.  Right at the arrow, right where the arrow  strikes -- right below the --  Is Sagat a mountain or a mountain peak?  S-a-g-a-t is a mountain peak.  The view in photo two --  :  I am sorry, was the witness referring to the arrows  in which, in photo two?  Yes.  In photo two.  :  Or one?  Both I guess?  Both.  Yes.  Both.  Photo two, Mr. Sterritt, is that a photo of -- in  the -- generally the same direction then?  Yes.  Very close.  We have moved farther along in  photo two.  All right.  In the index, 49 indicates the views in  one and two are towards the west "Stephens Peak not  visible," and that's one and two is west "Stephens  Peak not visible."  In relation to what we see in the  photographs one and two, where is Stephens Peak?  It's not far from Sagat where you see Sagat in the 7483  N. Sterritt (for Plaintiffs)  In Chief by Mr. Rush  1 photograph.  2 Q   Yes.  Is it behind it or -- ?  3 A   It's on the other side, yes.  4 Q   Okay.  All right.  Now, photograph three, in what  5 direction is that?  I should just point out that in  6 the index you indicate that it's east, Mosque  7 Mountain?  8 A  Well, we are flying south down the Skeena and there I  9 take a photograph east to Mosque Mountain which is  10 part of the territory of Wii gaak, and it's described  11 in his affidavit.  This is another view of the  12 mountain that we referred to when we first began  13 today.  14 Q   You also indicate that Sganis wii gaak in photo three,  15 you indicated in parenthesis "may also be known as  16 Niihatsaltwit"?  17 A   Niihatsaltwit, that's spelled  18 N-i-i-h-a-t-s-a-1-t-w-i-t.  The reason for that is I  19 conducted an interview with Martha Haimadam in the  20 hospital and we were simply talking and I was trying  21 to describe some areas and she mentioned  22 Niihatsaltwit.  I don't have confirmation that that is  23 Niihatsaltwit.  So I put that down and I have not been  24 able to confirm that since.  25 Q   Please go to page 50 now, Mr. Sterritt.  I want to  26 refer you to photograph number two and there are  27 features that are shown in Gitksan in photo two.  Can  28 you firstly tell us whether in photo two the first  29 feature, Lax anx xsan; there is an English name for  30 that on the government map?  31 A   No, there isn't.  32 Q   And what about the other --  33 A   That's spelled L-a-x and then a-n-x x-s-a-n.  And Lax  34 anx xsan is part of the territory of Wii gaak.  If you  35 look in photograph two you see right beside it the  36 mountain Xsa hahla gyoot, and that's spelled X-s-a  37 h-a-h-1-a g-y-o-o-t, and I believe that is, yes, Mount  38 Patcha.  That's P-a-t-c-h-a.  And the -- you can't see  39 the boundary, but there is a boundary between Lax anx  40 xsan and Xsa hahla gyoot which is the boundary of Wii  41 gaak, my father, and Niikyap and the affidavit of  42 Thomas Jack describes the territory of Niikyap in that  43 area.  44 Q   All right.  I just want to refer you to the affidavit  45 of Thomas Jack which was at tab five of the affidavit  46 volume and in tab five at the affidavit there is  47 reference made on page five to a mountain which is Lax 7484  N. Sterritt (for Plaintiffs)  In Chief by Mr. Rush  1 anx xsan.  Look under mountain number four?  2 A   Yes.  3 Q   Indicates unnamed on government maps?  4 A   Yes.  5 Q   To your knowledge is that the reference to Lax anx  6 xsan, is that the reference to the mountain feature  7 that you have identified in photograph two on 49?  Or  8 excuse me, on page 50?  9 A   Yes.  The arrow on that page points right to it.  Both  10 on photograph one and photograph two.  The boundary  11 between the two territories is in the affidavit under  12 number three.  Axsim lax anx xsan, that's A-x-s-i-m  13 space l-a-x space a-n-x x-s-a-n.  There is no English  14 name for that.  15 Q   And what is that feature?  16 A   It's a creek that runs off between Xsa hahla gyoot and  17 Lax anx xsan.  18 Q   All right.  Now, in Mr. Jack's affidavit under number  19 one there is a feature identified by the Gitksan name  20 of Hahla gyoot, H-a-h-1-a g-y-o-o-t.  And there is in  21 parenthesis an English name given for that as Mount  22 Patcha, P-a-t-c-h-a.  My first question is:  Is the  23 Hahla gyoot the same feature as that shown in the  24 photocopy of the photograph on page 50, photograph two  25 as Xsa hahla gyoot?  26 A   Yes.  It's the same feature and it's two ways of  27 saying that name.  28 Q   And my second question is:  Do you know the Gitksan  29 name for that feature to be called on the government  30 map as Mount Patcha?  31 A   Yes.  32 Q   Okay.  And you have also -- I would also direct you in  33 photocopy number -- photograph number two and the  34 photocopy there to another feature which appears to be  35 another mountain An togasxw?  36 A   That's An togasxw.  That's A-n another word  37 T-o-g-a-s-x-w.  38 Q   Yes.  39 A  And that is the area at the head of the Driftwood  40 River.  It's on the government map as Petayaz Peak to  41 Mount Coccola.  And that's P-e-t-a-y-a-z.  And Mount  42 Coccola is C-o-c-c-o-l-a.  43 Q   Okay.  In Mr. Jack's affidavit on page five under  44 mountains number two there are -- there is the Gitksan  45 name Tsim an togasxw and then it gives in parenthesis  46 Petayax Peak, no Mount Coccola.  Is Tsim an togasxw  47 the same feature as An togasxw? 7485  N. Sterritt (for Plaintiffs)  In Chief by Mr. Rush  1  A  2  Q  3  4  5  6  A  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  Q  17  A  18  Q  19  20  21  22  23  24  A  25  Q  26  27  28  A  29  THE COURT  30  31  A  32  33  34  35  THE COURT  36  A  37  38  THE COURT  39  40  A  41  42  43  44  THE COURT  45  46  47  A  Yes, it is.  T-s-i-m another word a-n t-o-g-a-s-x-w.  And, Mr. Sterritt, you have also identified on that  photocopy, still dealing with photograph two, the  photocopy of it, a feature described as Wii Xsi gwin  gyilaa?  That's Wii Xsi gwin gyilaa.  And that is spelled --  well, I will spell it first.  W-i-i x-s-i, space  g-w-i-n space g-y-i-1-l-a.  That's to distinguish it  from another one which is -- which comes in from the  right-hand side Squin gula.  And you see it on the  right-hand side of photograph two.  On the map that  would be the large Squin gula is Squin gula River,  S-q-u-i-n g-u-l-a.  And there is an English name for  Gwiis Xsi gwin gyilaa, but I don't know what it is.  Gwiis is spelled G-w-i-i-s.  And I understand Gwiss means small or little?  Yes.  Now, again if you turn to Mr. Jack's affidavit under  rivers and creeks number four, reference is made to a  Gitksan feature described as Xsigwin ila'a and there  it's X-s-i-g-w-i-n new word i-l-a-'-a.  Is that the  same feature as you have identified on the photocopy  of photograph number two as Wii Xsi gwin gyilaa?  Yes, it is.  All right.  Which direction the river -- the English  name for that is Squin gula River on the maps and  which direction does that flow, Mr. Sterritt?  It flows north and then west into the Skeena River.  :  Where is it going into the Skeena?  South of Mosque  Mountain?  Yes.  Just south of Mosque Mountain is the -- is  Sustut River and where the Sustut and the Skeena join  you go down the Skeena about four or five miles and  Squin Gula River comes in from the south.  :  Yes.  And we fly right over that on the recovery flight  right through that area.  :  Wasn't there an argument that the B.C. Rail line  should have gone up the Sustut instead of the Skeena?  There would have been a debate because the territory  that goes up past Thutadee is quite good level ground  and they could have gone that way as easily as up the  Skeena.  :  Would -- that wouldn't be really up the Sustut,  would it?  Seems to me the railroad does more or less  follow the Sustut for a time?  It goes down the Sustut. 7486  N. Sterritt (for Plaintiffs)  In Chief by Mr. Rush  1  THE  COURT  2  A  3  4  THE  COURT  5  6  7  8  A  9  THE  COURT  10  11  12  MR.  RUSH:  13  14  THE  COURT  15  MR.  RUSH:  16  Q  17  18  A  19  Q  20  21  22  23  24  25  A  26  27  28  29  30  Q  31  A  32  33  34  35  36  Q  37  A  38  Q  39  A  40  41  42  Q  43  44  45  46  A  47  Q  :  Down the Sustut, yes.  Well, it cuts across to join the Skeena to join the  junction and then goes up.  :  I am trying to reconstitute a long forgotten  argument.  I don't see on the map how the railway  could have gone any further along the Sustut than it  did.  That's as far as it could have gone.  :  All right.  Well, there is a factor missing in my  equation.  Perhaps I will deal with it sometime.  Thank you.  For some reason, my lord, I am not quite sure why, we  show the railway on the underlay of the map.  :  Yes.  And it shows it as a dotted line as it moves along Xsu  wii ax, which I think is the Sustut part of the way?  That's right.  And up the Skeena.  All right.  Thank you.  Now, Mr.  Sterritt, one further feature I would like to refer  you to on photocopy or photograph two in the photocopy  of it on the right-hand side you have identified a  feature as Uux wilp laxs.  And what is that feature  that you have identified?  Well, if you look at photograph number two and about a  third of the way down from the top right corner of  that picture a ridge comes in from the -- into the  picture from the right to the -- from the right to the  left.  Yes.  And as you go along, you can see that there is a  transition zone from timber to what is an old forest  fire.  You can see a transition zone on there from  some -- with some out cropping.  That is the area that  is Uux wilp laxs.  And is that an area of mountain, a hill?  It's a hill.  I wonder --  It's spelled U-u -- maybe I should go to the -- it's  not on here.  So it's U-u-x space w-i-l-p space  1-a-x-s.  Now, just why don't you take my red pen here if you  can and place a U.  All right.  You've placed a U and  an arrow going both directions and that shows that  feature, is that right?  Yes.  And is there an English name for that on the 7487  N. Sterritt (for Plaintiffs)  In Chief by Mr. Rush  1 government map?  2 A   No, there isn't.  3 Q   Now, I have been loosely referring to government maps  4 and is it the case that when you refer to a government  5 map and you understand me to be referring to a  6 standard National Topographic Series map at a scale of  7 one to 250,000?  8 A   I am -- yes, I am referring to the National  9 Topographic Series maps and I understand that's what  10 you are doing.  And they could be at a scale of one to  11 250 or at a scale of one to 50,000, but that  12 particular area there is a problem with getting one to  13 50,000 right in that area.  14 Q   So —  15 A   For purposes of locating, yes, one to 250,000 scale.  16 Q   All right.  And perhaps unless there is some reason to  17 misunderstand my question, perhaps between us if you  18 understand that I am asking you about a scale of one  19 to 250,000, NTS series map.  20 A   Yes.  21 Q   All right.  Thank you very much.  If you will proceed  22 now to page 51.  That's David Gunanoot, is it?  23 A   Yes.  24 Q   All right.  And please go ahead now to page 53 and  25 there are no photographs on 52.  Now, photograph two,  26 can you tell his lordship what view is being shown on  27 photograph two?  I can tell you that on the index if  28 you will refer to that, that photograph two on page 53  29 indicates that it's a view towards the northwest and  30 the reference is to fifth cabin?  31 A  Well, that map is -- I mean that mountain on the  32 right-hand side, that is what we call An maiyhl  33 gwiikw.  That's described in the affidavit of Walter  34 Blackwater and it's the territory of Gwinin nitxw.  An  35 maiyhl gwiikw is spelled A-n space m-a-i-y-h-1 space  36 g-w-i-i-k-w.  37 Q   Which mountain is that, is that the one in the  38 foreground?  39 A  Well —  40 Q   Of photograph number two on 53?  41 A   Yes.  And it slopes down to the left about mid picture  42 all the way out of the picture to the left.  43 Q   All right.  44 A   It would be about two inches into the picture where it  45 would go out.  The Slamgeesh Lake is just beyond the  46 slope of that mountain into the left of centre.  47 Q   All right.  Just referring back to the description 7488  N. Sterritt (for Plaintiffs)  In Chief by Mr. Rush  1 indicated in the index.  It says northwest fifth  2 cabin.  Is that a view to the northwest as indicated  3 in the index?  4 A   Yes.  5 Q   And fifth cabin I take it to mean the fifth cabin on  6 the old telegraph line, is that right?  7 A   Yes.  8 Q   And where in relation to what we see in this  9 photograph is the fifth cabin?  10 A   It's very close to Slamgeesh Lake.  You can't -- you  11 can't see it in this photograph.  It's very close to  12 Slamgeesh Lake.  13 Q   Now, Mr. Sterritt, commencing on page 53, are you  14 still in the course of the same heli-flight as the one  15 that you were on that ended with Mr. David Gunanoot's  16 photograph on page 51?  17 A   Yes.  We leave that mountain and fly around towards  18 the mouth of Slamgeesh River, which appears in  19 photograph number one, coming down into the Skeena  20 there.  The Skeena runs across the lower quadrant of  21 the picture from right to left.  22 Q   And this photograph number one and you have had  23 identified as Galaanhl giist area?  24 A   That's the Gitksan name and that's spelled  25 G-a-l-a-a-n-h-1 space g-i-i-s-t.  26 Q   And what does that mean in English?  27 A  Well, that's means around -- well Giist is an area  28 around a lake with small scrub brush and so on.  And  29 Slamgeesh Lake is Galaanhl Giist, the Galaanhl Giist  30 area.  31 Q   All right.  I just like to refer you now to Exhibit  32 605 which is the affidavit of Walter Blackwater found  33 at tab 14 of the affidavit book that's been submitted  34 and there on page eleven reference is made to Galaanhl  35 Giist territory?  36 A  Which tab?  37 Q   This is tab 14.  38 A  What page?  39 Q   Eleven.  40 A   Yes.  41 Q   Reference is made in a sub-heading F to Galaanhl Giist  42 territory, open brackets, Slamgeesh River, close  43 brackets.  Is the area identified in photo number one  44 on page 53, is that the same area that's referred to  45 to your knowledge as that referred to on page eleven  46 of the affidavit as Galaanhl Giist territory?  47 A   Yes, it is.  It's the area on the west side of the 7489  N. Sterritt (for Plaintiffs)  In Chief by Mr. Rush  1 Skeena, and includes most of the area that you see,  2 most of the area you see in the picture.  There are  3 some distant mountains that would not be part of it.  4 But it's not clear enough to describe accurately the  5 boundary with that picture, but there are other better  6 pictures.  7 Q   Okay.  The reference that you have guided us to in  8 photograph number two on page 53 you've identified a  9 mountain feature there as An maiyhl gwiikw.  And I  10 wonder if you turn to page 13 of the affidavit under  11 mountains and I just ask you to look at the reference  12 under number four to what appears to be the Gitksan  13 name Anmayhl gwiik and there it's spelled  14 A-n-m-a-y-1-h, new word g-w-i-i-k-w.  Is that  15 reference the same as the geographic feature that you  16 pointed us to on photograph number two on 53?  17 A   That's the same mountain -- if you are going to locate  18 that mountain on a map, there is a creek on the near  19 side of the mountain that runs south into the Skeena  20 on the map it appears as Kitlangus Creek,  21 K-i-t-1-a-n-g-u-s.  That's not the Gitksan name for  22 it.  The Gitksan name is Xsi gisa genx.  That's  23 X-s-i -- make sure I get the spelling the same as  24 here.  X-s-i space g-i-s-a space g-e-n-x.  Kitlangus  25 Creek.  26 Q   Now, if you'll look at photograph number three in that  27 sequence --  28 A   I should mention that creek's number six in that  29 affidavit.  30 Q   You are referring to the --  31 A   On page 13.  32 Q   All right.  Thank you.  33 A  All right.  34 Q   I was referring you now to photo three in the  35 photocopy of it.  There is a reference to a feature  36 called Sganasim habasxw.  And then it's identified as  37 Babish Hill?  38 A   Yes.  In photograph number three you can see the  39 Skeena River flowing towards the west, southwest and  40 out of the -- and into the valley there.  Just as the  41 Skeena disappears there is a hill above it and it is  42 the hill between -- well, right where the Skeena  43 disappears, Slamgeesh River comes in.  And the area of  44 land between the Slamgeesh River and the Skeena and  45 the first ridge there, that is Sganasim am nax, and  46 that's spelled in the affidavit.  It's mountain number  47 six on page 13.  It's S-g-a-n-a-s-i-m space a-m space 7490  N. Sterritt (for Plaintiffs)  In Chief by Mr. Rush  1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  A  Q  A  Q  A  A  THE COURT  MR. RUSH:  THE COURT  MR. RUSH:  THE COURT  n-a-x.  You are referring to the Walter Blackwater affidavit  605?  Yes, I am.  Yes, all right.  Yes.  And parenthetically it's indicated beside number six  part of Babish Hill.  I want to refer you to number  one under mountains in that same affidavit where it  says -- gives a Gitksan name, Am bax yuua, A-m, new  word b-a-x, new word y-u-u-a.  And parenthetically it  indicates there Babish Hill locally known as S.O.B.  Mountain.  Now, could you just explain what in your  description on the photocopy you have described  Sganasim am nax as Babish Hill.  Do you understand  that to be part of Babish Hill or is that Babish Hill  as you know it?  There is a part of Am bax yuua that is Sganasim am  nax.  Am bax yuua A-m space b-a-x space y-u-u-a.  And  Babish hill appears on the government map but  everybody knows that hill as S.O.B. Mountain as well,  because of the problems in getting up it.  It's quite  steep.  Now, photo number four on that page 53 it refers to an  English name or at least a feature by an English name  Shedin Peak.  Does that have a Gitksan name to your  knowledge?  Yes.  Dakhl luu lax loobit, D-a-k-h-1 space 1-u-u  space l-a-x space 1-o-o-b-i-t.  And there are -- there is another --  :  Whenever it's convenient.  Yes.  All right.  :  I am sorry.  Yes.  All right.  :  All right.  Thank you.  (PROCEEDINGS ADJOURNED PURSUANT TO MORNING BREAK)  I hereby certify the foregoing to be  a true and accurate transcript of the  proceedings herein to the best of my  skill and ability.  Laara Yardley,  Official Reporter.  United Reporting Service Ltd. 7491  N. Sterritt (for plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Rush  1 (PROCEEDINGS RESUMED PURSUANT TO A SHORT ADJOURNMENT)  2 THE REGISTRAR:  Order in court.  3 THE COURT:  Mr. Rush?  4 MR. RUSH:  5 Q   Yes.  Thank you.  Going on now, Mr. Sterritt, to page  6 54 of the photograph album, I'd -- in photograph  7 number 2 of that page, reference is made there to Gwin  8 Wijik?  9 A   Yes.  10 Q   And it's parenthetically described as Tommy Jack  11 Mountain.  Is that the name by which it is known on  12 government maps?  13 A   Yes.  And Gwin Wijik is spelled  14 G-w-i-n-space-W-i-j-i -- I don't know whether it's x  15 or k.  K.  16 Q   And in whose territory is the mountain Gwin Wijik  17 located?  18 A   It's a boundary point.  The -- actually, we're looking  19 south in photograph number 2.  The height of land of  20 the mountains runs along to the right side of the  21 photograph and then cuts across the peaks over to  22 Tommy Jack Peak, and on the left-hand side, which  23 would be the east side of the height of land there, is  24 the territory of Gwinin Nitxw.  25 THE COURT:  That's on the far side?  26 THE WITNESS:  It would be on the — on the left-hand side of the  27 height of land.  And the height of land runs actually  28 more or less from the right-hand side of the picture  29 over to the peak, Tommy Jack Peak.  So on the east  30 slope from that point is the territory of Gwinin  31 Nitxw.  And I'm sorry.  That is not a boundary.  It  32 continues right over the mountain and down to the  33 Skeena.  And at Tommy Jack Peak, coming directly below  34 to the left of the peak, is a boundary line that comes  35 up of Luus, and that is the boundary line between  36 Gwinin Nitxw and Luus.  Solomon Jack, his affidavit  37 describes the territory on this side, and the  38 affidavit and court description of Gitludahl, Pete  39 Muldoe, describes Luus' territory.  40 Q   Now, Mr. Sterritt, you've indicated this is a view  41 from the north to the south?  42 A   Yes.  43 Q   And you've said -- at least you've indicated in the  44 index that it is south to Mount Tommy Jack.  And you  45 indicate that you're airborne over the Sicintine  46 River?  47 A   Yes. 7492  N. Sterritt (for plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Rush  1 Q   The territory that -- the intervening territory  2 between the place where you took the photograph and  3 Mount Tommy Jack or Gwin Wijik, whose territory is  4 that?  5 A   That's the territory of Gwinin Nitxw.  That's spelled  6 G-w-i-n-i-n-space-N-i-t-x-w.  7 THE COURT:  I'm sorry.  The second word?  8 THE WITNESS:  N-i-t-x-w.  9 THE REGISTRAR:  Number 20 on the plaintiff's list, my lord.  10 THE COURT:  Thank you.  11 MR. RUSH:  12 Q   Now, Mr. —  13 A   Now, if you -- if you look at photograph number 3,  14 there's a creek in the very left-hand corner.  That  15 is, on the map it would be Sicintine Creek,  16 S-i-c-i-n-t-i-n-e.  And that runs out of the picture.  17 Coming into the left-hand corner is another creek.  18 You can see it there.  That's on the map as Tommy Jack  19 Creek.  20 Q   Is that Xsan Luu Skeex?  21 A   Yes, it is.  Xsan Luu Skeex is  22 X-s-a-n-space-L-u-u-space-s-k-e-e-x.  23 Q   And that's -- that is shown on photo number 3.  On the  24 photocopy you have the name Xsan Luu Skeex written  25 there?  26 A   Yes.  Now, if you look at the label on the photocopy  27 of Shedin Peak and Xsan Luu Skeex,  28 X-s-a-n-space-L-u-u-space-S-k-e-e-x, there is a  29 rounded mountain in between them.  That is Wii Luu  30 Yans, W-i-1-space-L-u-u-space-Y-a-n-s.  31 Q   Mr. Sterritt, which of the photos are you referring to  32 now?  33 A   Photograph number 3.  There's a rounded mountain in  34 the foreground there.  There's some peaks behind, but  35 there's a rounded mountain in the foreground, and all  36 I want to point out is that off that approximately  37 middle of the picture, the boundary line runs down to  38 Tommy Jack Creek, very close to where the label is on  39 photograph 3 on the Xerox copy.  And then the boundary  4 0 line runs up Tommy Jack Creek and then up to Tommy  41 Jack Mountain, which you can see in photograph 2.  You  42 can't see it in photograph 3.  43 Q   Okay.  44 A   The boundary line there is between Luus and Gwinin  45 Nitxw.  46 Q   All right.  Now, Mr. Sterritt, I'm going to ask you,  47 if you will, to look at Tab Number 6 of the affidavit 7493  N. Sterritt (for plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Rush  1 binder, the affidavit of Solomon Jack, which is  2 Exhibit 597.  3 A   Tab 6?  4 Q   Yes.  And I refer you now to page 3.  5 A   Yes.  6 Q   This is the affidavit of Solomon Jack, page 3 under  7 the heading "Rivers and Creeks".  Reference is there  8 made under number eight to Xsan Luu Skeexs,  9 X-s-a-n-new word-L-u-u-new word-S-k-e-e-x-s.  And  10 that's identified in parenthesis as Tommy Jack Creek.  11 Is that the same creek to which you -- that you  12 identified in photo number 3 on page 53?  13 A   Yes, it is.  14 Q   I'm sorry.  I said page 53.  It should have been 54.  15 And it's identified as Tommy Jack Creek?  16 A   Yes.  17 Q   All right.  Now, also under the heading "Mountains",  18 number 3, Gwin Wijik, same spelling as earlier --  19 A   No.  No, it isn't.  G-w-i-n-space-W-i-j-i-x, same  2 0 mountain, Tommy Jack Mountain.  21 MR. RUSH:  Okay.  22 THE COURT:  Is Tommy Jack Mountain directly east of Old Kuldo?  23 THE WITNESS:  Yes.  24 THE COURT:  You said photograph number 2 was facing south.  25 Would that mean perhaps southwest?  26 THE WITNESS:  I'm parallel to the Skeena and inland about —  27 in -- east from the Skeena about six miles, eight  28 miles, and more or less looking south.  I would have  29 to look at the map to see whether it's slightly west  30 of that.  It could be, yeah.  31 THE COURT:  All right.  32 MR. RUSH:  33 Q   On photo number 2, then, Old Kuldo would be to the  34 west as you look in the direction that you're --  35 A   Yes.  36 Q   All right.  Now, you made reference, Mr. Sterritt, to  37 I think it was Wii Luu Yans?  38 A  Wii Luu Yans.  39 Q   Wii Luu Yans?  40 A  W-i-1-space-L-u-u-space-Y-a-n-s.  41 Q   And I think you made a reference to that in photograph  42 number 3?  43 A   Yes.  44 Q   My eye cannot discern where that is.  I wonder if  45 you'd just put a red "W" on that photograph as to  46 where it's located.  All right.  You've put a red "W"  47 in a sort of a half line, in a moon shape over the 7494  N. Sterritt (for plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Rush  1 "W".  That's where that feature is located, is it?  2 A   Yes.  I've drawn a line along the top of that  3 mountain.  4 Q   Photo 4 on page 54, Mr. Sterritt, reference is made to  5 Lax an Hak, L-a-x-new word-a-n-new word-h-a-k.  And I  6 think you told us earlier that that is Shelf Ridge?  7 A   Yes, it is.  And that is a boundary area.  The east  8 slope is the territory of Tsabux, T-s-a-b-u-x, and the  9 west slope is the territory of Luus, L-u-u-s.  10 Q   All right.  Thank you.  Mr. Sterritt, just before I  11 leave page 54, you were on a heliflight in, I think it  12 was June the 23rd, 1983, in this location.  Have you  13 been to this area before or after June 23rd, '83?  14 A   Yes.  I -- I was there -- well, I was south of this  15 area the day before, on June the 22nd.  16 Q   Yes.  17 A  Which we talked about earlier.  I was there in 1959  18 to -- to the area in the centre of picture number 4 on  19 page 54 at Dam Similoo.  That's  20 D-a-m-space-S-i-m-i-1-o-o.  On the map its  21 D-a-m-S-u-m-1-o Lake.  And I have been there with --  22 I've flown west of there with Walter Blackwater and  23 David Blackwater, Nancy Supernault, Albert Tait and --  24 well, Albert was with Walter and David as well, and  25 then Nancy was with Walter and David, so I've been  26 with them.  27 Q   Is that in 1985?  28 A   Yes.  1986.  1986, I believe.  29 Q   Okay.  30 A   I've also flown through there on the -- on the east  31 side I flew through that area with my father and with  32 a field crew that we were putting out to do some  33 archaeology work.  34 Q   Okay.  Also I want to ask you about Slamgeesh, which  35 you identified as Galaanhl giist in photo 3 on page  36 53.  Have you been to that area on occasions other  37 than the one that you were on in June of -- 23rd,  38 1983?  39 A   Yes.  I've been to that area with Walter and David  40 Blackwater.  I've been there with David Gunanoot and  41 James Morrison.  And I was there again this -- this  42 spring, about a month ago, with David Blackwater and  43 Pete Muldoe along on the overflight.  44 Q   All right.  Thank you.  Now, you made reference to Dam  45 Similoo or Dam Sumlo, and there's an identified  46 topographical feature on page 54 of the photographic  47 volume.  It's in -- photo 4 is Dam Similoo shown in 7495  N. Sterritt (for plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Rush  1 that photo.  2 A   Yes.  We're flying south up Tommy Jack Creek, and just  3 to the right of the writing on the bubble, the  4 reflection on the bubble is a light patch, and that is  5 Dam Similoo.  And it's on the map as Dam Sumlo.  6 Q   All right.  Thank you.  And here it's spelled  7 T-a-a-m-new word-S-i-m-i-1-o-o.  Page 56, Mr.  8 Sterritt.  And I'd ask you if you would look at,  9 firstly, photograph 1, which is indicated as looking  10 south down Shedin Creek.  11 A   Yes.  Now, on photo 2 there are a number of features  12 identified, the mountain features identified.  And  13 you've -- you have in the upper left-hand corner  14 Saganism Xsu Wii Wiltwit.  Does that feature carry a  15 name on a -- on the government map?  16 A   No, it doesn't, not that I'm aware of.  That's spelled  17 S-g-a-n-i-s-m-space-X-s-u-space-W-i-1-space-W-i-l-t-w-  18 i-t.  19 Q   My question is does that refer to the mountain  20 directly below the Gitksan name?  21 A   Yes.  22 Q   And below that is Xsuwii Wiltwit?  23 A   Yes.  If you look at the photograph on the left-hand  24 side of the picture, about an inch and a half up, you  25 can see a change in the shade of the trees there.  26 Right behind there you can see a line going out of the  27 picture to the left at a diagonal, and that is Xsuwii  28 Wiltwit, and it's a boundary.  29 Q   Yes.  It's a creek, is it?  30 A   Yes.  It's a creek.  Xsuwii Wiltwit is  31 X-s-u-w-i-1-w-i-l-t-w-i-t, and it's a boundary on the  32 right-hand side.  It's the territory of Wiigyet, which  33 was described by James Morrison.  And on the left-hand  34 side it's the territory of Luus, L-u-u-s.  35 Q   Is there a --  36 A  And that was described by Pete Muldoe.  37 Q   Mr. Sterritt, is there an English name for that on the  38 government map?  39 A   No.  40 Q   Xsuwii Wiltwit?  41 A   No, there isn't.  42 Q   Now, there are two other features shown in photograph  43 number 2.  They appear to my eye to be mountains.  One  44 is Daak Luu Skayansit.  Is that the Gitksan name for  45 the mountain that's directly beneath the description?  46 A   Yes, it is.  My photographs are reversed here.  Just a  47 minute. 7496  N. Sterritt (for plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Rush  1 Q   Yes.  That's right.  That's the way I have it.  2 A   Okay.  3 MR. RUSH:  My lord, it could be that — 2 and 4, they're correct  4 on mine and they weren't on Mr. Sterritt's or Mr.  5 Goldie's.  It could be reversed.  6 THE COURT:  Well, the one that has Xsuwii Wiltwit in the top  7 left corner, should that be number 2 or number 4?  8 THE WITNESS:  It should match the Xerox copy, which would make  9 it number 2.  10 THE COURT:  Yes.  Mine is reversed as well.  11 MR. RUSH:  12 Q   In the index it's indicated that photograph number 2  13 is a view over Dam Similoo Lake looking east towards  14 Shedin Peak.  Is that a -- is that a correct  15 description of the view?  16 A   You're on page 56?  17 Q   Yes.  Page 56.  18 A  And photograph number?  19 Q   Number 2.  I'm just trying to sort out what appears to  20 be a switch in the two photographs.  21 A   Yes.  Well, the index is right.  22 Q   Yes.  23 A  And the description that I gave you of where Xsuwii  24 Wiltwit is, X-s-u-w-i-1-W-i-l-t-w-i-t, I gave you the  25 description according to the photograph that matches  26 photo number 2 in -- on the Xerox copy.  In other  27 words, I was using the right photograph.  28 Q   Yes.  29 A   Not the other one.  And Shedin Peak is Daak Luu Lak  30 Loobit, and it's the one in the centre at the -- well,  31 no.  It's just left of centre in the back of the  32 photograph.  It's --  33 Q   Is it behind Daak Luu Skayansit?  34 A   Yes.  35 Q   Where is it in relation to Daak Luu Skayansit?  36 A   On the left of it on the photograph.  37 Q   I see.  And that is known as Daak Luu Lak Loobit?  38 A   Yes.  That's —  39 THE REGISTRAR:  I've got it.  40 THE WITNESS:  You've got it?  41 MR. RUSH:  42 Q   And then one further feature that is identified in  43 photograph number 2 is Gaakhl Gallii Dak.  44 A  Well, that — that's Gaakhl Gallii Dak, and that is  45 spelled G-a-a-k-h-1-space-G-a-l-l-i-i-space-D-a-k.  46 And what that refers to, what that means is the wing  47 of the blue jay.  And I have a better photograph of 7497  N. Sterritt (for plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Rush  1 this feature, but --  2 Q   That -- is there an English name for that?  3 A   No, there isn't.  But there's a lake there that is  4 very, very blue, right almost dead centre in the  5 photograph, and then if you go up about half an inch,  6 you can see a ridge cutting across, and it -- what it  7 is, it looks like a wing of the lake, a wing above the  8 lake, and so the people have named it the wing of the  9 blue jay.  And that's Gaakhl Gallii Dak, what I just  10 spelled before.  That's in the territory of Wiigyet.  11 Q   All right.  I'm going to ask you now to move ahead to  12 the next photograph, please, which is found at 57.  13 And on photograph number 1 you've already made  14 reference to Gwin Wijik.  The view here, Mr. Sterritt,  15 is taken from Lax an Hak.  That indicates that from  16 your description of that photograph?  17 A   Yes.  Lax an Hak is L-a-x-space-a-n-space-h-a-k and  18 that is Shelf Ridge.  19 THE COURT:  Shelf Ridge?  20 THE WITNESS:  Yes.  On the map.  21 MR. RUSH:  22 Q   Now, I think you indicateded earlier that Shelf Ridge  23 is a feature of some many miles?  24 A   Yes, it is.  25 Q   And which portion of Shelf Ridge are you on at the  26 point that you took this photograph?  27 A   Here we're located very close to the north end of  28 Shelf Ridge.  29 Q   Okay.  Facing north.  And in the photograph you  30 identified Dam Similoo?  31 A   Yes, you can in photograph number 1 on the left, about  32 mid-picture in a vertical direction, and to the right  33 there is a lake.  You can see a lake.  You can see  34 part of a lake sweeping around there.  That's Dam  35 Similoo.  And that is the boundary area of -- of Luus  36 on the north side.  We're looking more or less  37 northeast here, I think, if we look at the -- if you  38 look at -- I think north from that position would be  39 looking right at Tommy Jack Mountain, which is on the  40 left-hand side of the photograph.  And so we're  41 looking slightly northeast towards Dam Similoo.  42 That's D-a-m-space-S-i-m-i-1-o-o.  And Luus is on the  43 north side and comes around the lake and comes around  44 to the left right to almost dead centre in the  45 picture.  The lake ends, and from there Luus' boundary  4 6 comes up along the mountain towards where we are up  47 along the height of land, and Tsabux goes along the 749?  N. Sterritt (for plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Rush  1 south side.  And there's a creek outlet of Dam Similoo  2 that you can't see there on the -- on the -- about the  3 middle of the lake going to the right, and that is the  4 boundary of Tsabux on the south side and Wiigyet on  5 the north side.  The lake is on the territory of  6 Wiigyet.  7 Q   Is there a name for that creek that you referred to?  8 A   It's Xsi Dam Similoo.  9 Q   It's the creek of the lake?  10 A   Creek of the lake, yes.  That would be spelled --  11 well, the affidavit will be the affidavit of James  12 Morrison.  13 MR. RUSH:  All right.  I think it's X-s-i-new word-D-a-m-new  14 word-S-i-m-i-1-o-o.  All right.  Thank you, Mr.  15 Sterritt.  16 MR. GOLDIE:  The index indicates Mount Tommy Jack is the  17 feature.  Where is that?  18 THE WITNESS:  Photograph number 1 in the left-hand side, you  19 take a -- line up the centre of the photograph.  The  20 mountain on the left, you come in from the right up to  21 the highest peak there.  That's Tommy Jack Mountain.  22 MR. RUSH:  23 Q   That's Gwin Wijik?  24 A   Yes.  25 MR. RUSH:  That's shown on the photocopy in photo 1.  2 6 THE COURT:  It's marked in Mr. Macaulay's map Tommy Jack  27 Mountain by that name?  28 THE WITNESS:  Yes.  29 THE COURT:  Now, Mr. Sterritt, the photos 2 — 1 and 2 matched  30 together form a panorama?  31 THE WITNESS:  Yes, they do.  32 MR. RUSH:  33 Q   And similarly with 3 and 4?  34 A   Yes, they do.  35 Q   And is the panorama -- a panorama starting looking  36 north and then swinging to the east and shooting as  37 you move around to the east on the south side?  38 A   Yes.  If you took all four photographs and placed --  39 placed them in order to the right, they would form a  40 panorama, and it continues on to the next page and the  41 next page.  It carries on.  I think I'm in a location  42 there where I was able to do a 360-degree pan.  43 THE COURT:  Did you have any photographs?  44 THE WITNESS:  Sixteen, because if you go to page 60, photograph  45 number 4, you can see Tommy Jack Mountain in the  46 right-hand side of the photograph.  47 THE COURT:  So 360 degrees on the 16 photographs following 7499  N. Sterritt (for plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Rush  1 number 1 on page 57?  2 THE WITNESS:  Yes.  3 THE COURT:  Where do you say you get back to Tommy Jack Creek  4 again, in which --  5 THE WITNESS:  Photograph number 4 on page 60.  6 THE COURT:  Oh, yeah.  7 MR. RUSH:  My lord, photo 1 on 57 is identified as Gwin Wijik.  8 THE COURT:  Yes.  9 MR. RUSH:  And on the photocopy of photo 4 of page 60, it's  10 similarly identified with the English name Tommy Jack  11 Mountain as well.  12 THE COURT:  Yes.  13 MR. RUSH:  14 Q   Now, Mr. Sterritt, if you'll turn, please, to page 58.  15 The view that we see from these photographs, the  16 panorama is -- is at east.  We are now at a  17 southeasterly direction or southern direction as we're  18 moving from the first to the fourth photograph?  19 A   I'm panning south, and on page 58 I'm generally  20 looking southeast and moving -- well, even in the  21 fourth photograph I'm still not looking directly south  22 yet.  23 Q   I want to direct your attention to number 2.  Earlier  24 you made reference to Gallii Xsii eeskwit.  25 That's G-a-1-l-i-i new word X-s-i-i-new  26 word-e-e-s-k-w-i-t.  Now, in this photograph number 2  27 it's -- the Gitksan name is describing that peak, is  28 it?  2 9          A   No.  30 Q   All right.  Can you tell me what it's describing?  31 A   On photograph number 2, page 58, if you come in from  32 the left about an inch and a half, there's a peak  33 there.  On some maps that appears as Kisagas Peak.  34 Where that drops off to the left, there is a very  35 narrow mountain valley running east/west, and that is  36 what is known as Gallii Xsii eeskwit, spelled as you  37 just spelled it a moment ago.  38 Q   Now, you said on some maps Kisagas Peak is identified.  39 Are there some maps that there's a different physical  40 feature that is named Kisagas Peak?  41 A  Well, sometimes I think there are maps where I've seen  42 it farther to the left of that peak.  It's not always  43 in the same -- it's always been located in the same  44 spot as Kisagas Peak.  45 Q   Xsan Gokhl on the right-hand side, X-s-a-n-new  46 word-G-o-k-h-1, what type of feature is that?  47 A   That's a creek.  If you were going to locate that 7500  N. Sterritt (for plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Rush  1 creek on the map, it flows west into Shedin Creek,  2 S-h-e-d-i-n, and it's the first creek north of  3 Goathead Creek.  Goathead Creek also flows west into  4 Shedin Creek.  Now, on photograph number 4 on that  5 page, I -- Goathead Creek is shown or indicated in the  6 Gitksan name, Xsandap Matx,  7 X-s-a-n-d-a-p-space-M-a-t-x.  And under it it has in  8 brackets "Djiiwus southern boundary".  That's not  9 Djiiwus' southern boundary.  Djiiwus' boundary was  10 farther south than there as described in James  11 Morrison's affidavit, so that should be struck out or  12 a line put through it, just the -- the part in  13 brackets.  14 MR. GOLDIE:  Just so that I understand that correctly, you say  15 that Goathead Creek is not the south boundary?  16 THE WITNESS:  That's correct.  17 MR. RUSH:  18 Q   Of Djiiwus?  19 A   Djiiwus is in the house of Tsabux, T-s-a-b-u-x.  20 Q   Now, mention is made in parenthesis to Djiiwus'  21 territory in photograph number 1.  Do you see that  22 under Sganism Luu Skadakwit?  23 A   Yes.  24 Q   Now, is that description correct?  25 A   Xsi Luu Skadakwit is  26 X-s-i-space-L-u-u-space-S-k-a-d-a-k-w-i-t.  That is  27 Sperry Creek, S-p-e-r-r-y, on the map.  28 Q   That feature is a creek?  29 A   Yes.  30 Q   But Sganism Luu Skadakwit is not a creek, is it?  31 A   I'm just getting to that.  Sganism Luu Skadakwit,  32 S-g-a-n-i-s-m-space-L-u-u-space-S-k-a-d-a-k-w-i-t,  33 that is a mountain at the head of Sperry Creek, and  34 that is in the territory of -- well, the creek is the  35 boundary between Tsabux on the south side and Wii  36 Minosek on the north side, and Djiiwus is in the house  37 of Tsabux.  38 Q   In this description, then, on this photocopy, Sganism  39 gwin dak, do you see that located there?  40 A   Yes.  41 Q   Is that a mountain feature?  42 A   Yes.  It's -- you can see two hanging glaciers there,  43 and the mountain, that is the area known as gwin dak.  44 That's g-w-i-n-space-d-a-k.  45 Q   And in parenthesis it's indicated "Waiget territory".  46 Is that right?  47 A   No, it isn't. 7501  N. Sterritt (for plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Rush  1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  Q  A  Q  A  A  THE  MR.  THE  MR.  THE  MR.  THE  MR.  Q  A  COURT  RUSH:  COURT  RUSH:  COURT  RUSH:  COURT  RUSH:  Q  A  What should that be?  That should be the territory of Wii minosik.  And what is --  Waiget is spelled W-a-i-g-e-t there.  It should be Wii  minosik.  Now, Sganism gwin dak, is there a -- is there a name  on the government map for that, to your knowledge?  I'm not -- I'm not aware of it if there is.  It may  be.  Okay.  I'm not sure about that.  :  Can I interrupt for a minute, Mr. Rush?  Yes.  :  On page 55, I didn't get this.  Did you give me the  name of the lake on photograph number 3?  On photo 3?  :  Yes.  No.  :  The coloured lake at the bottom of that picture.  No, I didn't.  Mr. Sterritt, turning to photo 3 on 55, on the  photocopy there is Gwin Wijik, which seems to be quite  a good shot of Gwin Wijik.  There's a -- a lake in the  foreground.  Do you know the name of that lake?  I'm sure there's one for it, but I don't  And we're looking  No, I don't.  know.  RUSH:  All right.  COURT:  So Gwin Wijik is the mountain?  WITNESS:  That is that mountain, yes.  west there.  COURT:  Does it have an English name?  WITNESS:  Tommy Jack.  COURT:  That is Tommy Jack again?  WITNESS:  That's it.  COURT:  All right.  Now, you -- there was a name given, my lord, to a  lake that appears on 55, photograph 4, and that was  Dam Similoo.  And you can see the reference to that ir  the photocopy.  55, number 4?  Yes.  There's a lake.  It's hard to distinguish, but  I think Mr. Sterritt referenced it by the reflection  in the helicopter.  THE COURT:  Yes.  All right.  Well, I found Dam Similoo.  But  that lake on number 4 would be east of Tommy Jack  Peak?  MR.  THE  THE  THE  THE  THE  THE  THE  MR.  THE  MR.  RUSH:  COURT  RUSH: 7502  N. Sterritt (for plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Rush  1 THE WITNESS:  It's below, immediately below and east of Tommy  2 Jack Peak.  3 THE COURT:  All right.  Thank you.  4 MR. RUSH:  5 Q   Page 59, Mr. Sterritt, the feature I'd like to direct  6 your attention to is An dak aaws, A-n-d-a-k-new  7 word-a-a-w-s.  8 A   Yes.  9 Q   Is there an English name for that on a government map?  10 A   No, there isn't.  This is an area that was -- the area  11 you're looking at is the territory of Luus.  The way  12 to locate An dak aaws on the map -- that's A-n-d -- is  13 it spelled there?  14 Q   An dak aaws is spelled on the photocopy of photo 3.  15 A  A-n-space-d-a-k-space-a-a-w-s.  Now, that mountain is  16 a mountain near the headwaters of Larkworthy Creek,  17 L-a-r-k-w-o-r-t-h-y.  And Larkworthy Creek flows  18 westerly into the Skeena.  And it is Xsan hak.  That's  19 X-s-a-n-space-h-a-k.  20 Q   Now, if you just pause there, Mr. Sterritt, which of  21 the physical features in photo 3 is An dak aaws?  It's  22 hard for me to discern that from the -- the place  23 where you've put your identifying name.  24 A  Well, the label on photo 3 in the -- in the Xerox copy  25 covers part of An dak aaws, so it's right -- it's  26 almost the farthest mountain that you see there,  27 A-n-d-a-k-space-a-a-w-s.  28 Q   If you just -- maybe you could assist by marking that  29 with an "A".  Okay.  You've put a circle, an oblong  30 circle on the peak of the mountain feature, and then  31 above that you've placed an "A"?  32 A   It's a bigger area than that.  It would go further, a  33 little bit farther to the right.  And you can't see  34 it, but it also goes farther to the left.  An dak aaws  35 is a bit broader than that, A-n-d-a-k-space-a-a-w-s.  36 That will appear in the affidavit of Pete Muldoe and  37 Robert Jackson Senior.  That's two different  38 affidavits.  39 Q   Thank you.  All right.  Mr. Sterritt, if I can — if I  40 can now direct your attention, please, to page 60.  41 Mr. Sterritt, in photograph number 1 there is a  42 feature identified as Xsa gan gaxda, X-s-a-new  43 word-g-a-n-new word-g-a-x-d-a.  Does that have a name  4 4 on the maps, government maps?  45 A   Yes.  That is Kuldo Creek, K-u-1-d-o.  And we're  46 looking more or less west here.  Yes.  We're looking  47 west.  And that is an area that was described in the 7503  N. Sterritt (for plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Rush  1 affidavit of Pete Muldoe.  2 Q   And it's -- is the creek discernible in the  3 photograph?  Are you pointing the direction of where  4 the creek is located?  5 A   If you relate the label on photograph number 1 in the  6 Xerox copy to the ridge, the very -- the left -- upper  7 left corner of the label runs along -- or there's a  8 ridge right behind it that runs diagonally from left  9 to right.  In behind there is the valley.  That is the  10 valley of Kuldo Creek.  11 Q   So we don't -- we can't really see the creek, but we  12 see the -- the valley where it would be located?  13 A   Yes.  14 Q   All right.  15 A   Now, if you continue to locate yourself in that point,  16 directly above the "X" on that label, the "X" of Xsa,  17 is a valley going in behind, going away from you, and  18 that is a creek that comes in and joins Kuldo Creek.  19 It's called Gwiis, G-w-i-i-s, Xsa gan gaxda,  20 X-s-a-g-a-n-space-g-a-x-d-a.  And that is an area that  21 is described by Jeff Harris Senior in his affidavit.  22 Q   I want to show you Exhibit 3 -- excuse me -- 486,  23 which is the map identified by Gitludahl, Pete Muldoe,  24 and I first want to refer you to the words -- the  25 Gitksan words Xsa gan gaksda, which here is spelled  26 X-s-a-g-a-n-new word-g-a-k-s-d-a.  And that appears  27 just below Kuldo Creek.  Is that the same creek as you  28 have identified in photo number 1 on page 60 as Xsa  29 gan gaxda?  30 A   Yes, they are.  31 Q   Okay.  That's Kuldo Creek, is it?  32 A   Yes.  33 Q   Now, the other reference I'd like to draw your  34 attention to while you have the map handy is An dak  35 aaws, which you had earlier referred to as being in  36 photo 3 on 59.  And I just direct your attention to  37 the Luus territory.  And there is a name there, Andax,  38 A-n-d-a-x, aaws, a-a-w-s.  Is that a reference to the  39 same physical feature?  40 A   Yes, it is.  And it -- on the map you can see that  41 Larkworthy creek, the headwaters of -- come up right  42 to that location.  43 THE COURT:  Larkworthy creek flows east to west?  44 THE WITNESS:  Yes.  45 THE COURT:  Is it north or west of Kuldo —  46 THE WITNESS:  It's about —  47 THE COURT:  — at its junction? 7504  N. Sterritt (for plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Rush  1 THE WITNESS:  Two miles south of it.  2 THE COURT:  South?  3 THE WITNESS:  Very close.  I might being wrong.  Just let me  4 look here to make sure.  It's about two miles north  5 and opposite.  6 THE COURT:  Yes.  7 MR. RUSH:  8 Q   Now, Mr. Sterritt, you made reference to the affidavit  9 of Mr. Jeff Harris.  Is that senior?  10 A   Yes.  11 MR. RUSH:  And you referred to Gwiis Xsa gan gaxda.  And I take  12 it means -- I think you said it meant Little Kuldo  13 Creek?  14 MR. GOLDIE:  He hadn't, but he has now.  15 THE WITNESS:  Gwiis Xsa gan gaxda does not have an English  16 designation on the map, but what it -- that's what it  17 means to us.  Gwiis is small, and it's the Little  18 Kuldo River, or Little Kuldo Creek.  19 MR. RUSH:  20 Q   Okay.  And reference is made to Gwiis Xsa gan gaxda on  21 page 2 of Mr. Harris' affidavit, Exhibit 610.  And  22 it's under item number two under the heading of  23 "Rivers and Creeks", Gwiis Xsa gan gaxda.  Is that  24 name the physical feature that you have been referring  25 to in photograph number -- I think it is 1 on page 60?  26 A   Yes.  27 Q   All right.  This description in parenthesis, Mr.  28 Sterritt, describes Gwiis Xsa gan gaxda as unnamed on  29 government maps, tributary of Kuldo Creek, flows north  30 into Kuldo Creek about three and one-half miles from  31 junction of Kuldo Creek and Skeena River?  32 A   That's right.  33 Q   Is that your understanding?  34 A   Yes.  35 Q   Mr. Sterritt, the panorama shots that you took from  36 the north end of Lax an hak were taken on June the  37 23rd, 1983.  Had you been in that occasion on prior  38 occasions or did you go there afterwards?  39 A   No.  This was -- other than being at Dam Similoo,  40 which is about four or five miles to the east, I  41 hadn't been on that before, that area before this  42 trip.  43 Q   Had you been to the areas that were depicted in the  44 photographs that --  45 A   Yes, I have on subsequent trips.  I have -- I had been  46 in those areas with Albert Tait, David Blackwater,  47 Walter Blackwater, Pete Muldoe, Nancy Supernault, 7505  N. Sterritt (for plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Rush  1  2  Q  3  A  4  Q  5  6  7  8  9  A  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  Q  22  23  A  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  Q  31  A  32  THE COURT  33  MR. RUSH:  34  Q  35  36  37  38  39  A  40  41  Q  42  A  43  Q  44  45  A  46  47  that's S-u-p-e-r-n-a-u-1-t, James Morrison.  Okay.  Now --  David Gunanoot.  Thank you.  Now, if you'll please refer to photograph  2 on page 60.  You indicate in the photocopy that this  is a view northwesterly to Spagaitsiixigit from Lax an  hak.  What feature does Spagaitsiixigit refer to?  And  that is spelled here S-p-a-g-a-i-t-s-i-i-x-i-g-i-t.  Well, you can only -- you can barely see it.  It's in  the very extreme right of the picture.  You can hardly  see it there.  What you actually see here probably is  easier to identify as Kuldo Mountain, Kuldo Mountain  being -- in the photograph number 2 being directly  above the snow on the right-hand side of the picture,  in the middle of the picture, the snow that's in the  immediate foreground.  You can see a bald mountain  with a bit of strings of snow on it.  That is Kuldo  Mountain.  It's Ansa gan tsap,  A-n-s-a-space-g-a-n-space -- I'm not sure how it will  be in the affidavit.  I think it's t-s-a-p.  Is Spagaitsiixigit, is that indicated in photograph  number 3?  There is a better picture coming up in the other  album.  I'm sure you can all hardly wait for it.  It's  hard to see in this album.  It is in there.  What  Spagaitsiixigit means is -- Spagaitsiixigit, it means  amongst the mountain peaks, and there's an area of  very sharp mountain peaks near the head of Poison  Creek on the map, and that's what Spagaitsiixigit is.  What direction is photograph number 2 facing, please?  Photograph number --  :  It says northwesterly here.  Photo 4, Mr. Sterritt, the last of that sequence,  there's a feature identified as Taam Sgan Djixit,  T-a-a-m-new word-S-g-a-n-new word-D-i -- excuse me --  D-j-i-x-i-t.  Is there an English name on the  government map for that?  Yes.  It's Smokee Lake, S-m-o-k-e-e.  And that's part  of a small territory of Wii minosik.  Is it in that territory?  It's within the territory, yes.  And to the right of that description is another  feature described as Xsana lilixim Andoo.  That's Xsana lilixim Andoo.  That's  X-s-a-n-a-space-1-i-l-i-x-i-m-space-a-n-d-o-o.  And  it's an unnamed creek on the map.  It -- it's hard to 7506  N. Sterritt (for plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Rush  1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  MR. RUSH:  THE COURT  pick out in the photograph, but it runs into Xsi  Duutswit, another creek that is just this side of  Smokee Lake.  You can see a valley running down there.  And Xsi duutswit is spelled  X-s-i-space-d-u-u-t-s-w-i-t.  This is -- these are all  areas that Pete Muldoe described in his affidavit and  on the stand.  All right.  Would you go to page 61, please?  You're  airborne here.  I think, Mr. Rush, we'll adjourn now if you don't  mind.  Two o'clock.  THE REGISTRAR:  Order in court.  Court will adjourn until two.  (PROCEEDINGS ADJOURNED)  I hereby certify the foregoing to be  a true and accurate transcript of the  proceedings transcribed to the best  of my skill and ability.  Kathie Tanaka, Official Reporter  UNITED REPORTING SERVICE LTD. 7507  N. Sterritt (for Plaintiffs)  In Chief by Mr. Rush  1 (PROCEEDINGS RESUMED PURSUANT TO LUNCHEON ADJOURNMENT)  2  3 MR. GRANT:  My lord, on the matter that we addressed you on this  4 morning on the question that you posed for counsel, I  5 can advise you that it's our position that we, the  6 plaintiffs, are prepared to continue through to the  7 completion of Mr. Sterritt's evidence from now until  8 when it's completed.  But we would like to see the  9 cross-examination and the direct finished all at once  10 and given the fact that your lordship's availability  11 makes it a more feasible option, we think that we'd  12 like to take advantage of your availability and press  13 on with the direct and the cross, but we feel that if  14 there isn't sufficient time to do that, then we  15 would -- we stay with the proposal that we made this  16 morning.  But I think if your lordship -- if I read  17 your lordship's comments accurately, and I tried to do  18 that as best I can, that you indicated your  19 availability through to the completion of this  20 witness' evidence and that it might be -- it might be  21 more than -- I took it to be that you would be  22 available for more than just the next following week  23 should that be necessary or obviously less.  24 THE COURT:  I am assuming that it wouldn't be more than another  25 ten court days.  26 MR. GRANT:  I couldn't see that it would be.  27 THE COURT:  No.  But that puts Mr. Goldie in a position  28 abandoning his right to ask for the adjournment of the  29 cross-examination by reason of the late delivery of  30 the notice.  I am not -- I wouldn't presume to speak  31 for him, but I am not -- I don't know if he is  32 prepared to do that.  33 MR. GOLDIE:  No, I am certainly not, my lord.  My friends  34 consented last spring to a variation of the provision  35 on the Evidence Act that a summary and -- not the  36 summary, that a report, a statement and the facts upon  37 which it would be based would be delivered 60 days  38 before an expert testified.  Now, if your lordship in  39 his discretion decides that 60 days is too long, then  40 I -- my position was let's see if we can get as much  41 done as possible.  But I am certainly not prepared to  42 agree to deal with the opinions that I see stated in  43 the summary that was delivered the day before  44 yesterday.  And the changes that have taken place from  45 trial Exhibit 5 which at the time of its delivery we  46 were told was final, were the changes that I see  47 between that exhibit and map 9A which was delivered 750?  N. Sterritt (for Plaintiffs)  In Chief by Mr. Rush  1 the day before yesterday and which has had a period of  2 gestation, I suppose, at least dating back to Mr.  3 Sterritt's examination for discovery this last year  4 and when I look at the changes that have taken place,  5 now your lordship may find it rather difficult to  6 follow those changes, because the lettering in map 9A  7 is in red -- I mean the boundaries are in red.  And  8 when you put that over the overlay of the trial  9 Exhibit 5, it's difficult to follow the boundaries.  10 But -- an overlay with black boundaries has been given  11 us and if that is put over trial Exhibit 5 overlay  12 that your lordship will have, you'll find that  13 especially in the lower left-hand corner there are a  14 lot of -- not so much the lower left-hand corner, but  15 the west side --  16 THE COURT:  What west side?  17 MR. GOLDIE:  -- of the territory, there are substantial changes.  18 We can only regard those as having some significance.  19 I am simply not going to prejudice my client's case by  20 having this expert return on the stand and say now  21 cross-examine, without any notice whatsoever.  If your  22 lordship is interested in pursuing that, when I say  23 the lower left, the west side, of course it's of the  24 Gitksan territory only.  But that may be of some  25 assistance to your lordship.  26 THE COURT:  Well, I'm in the position where I do not think that  27 I -- is that mine?  28 THE REGISTRAR:  No.  29 THE COURT:  Mr. Goldie is tendering it for an exhibit.  30 MR. GOLDIE:  No.  I say if your lordship wants to pursue that I  31 would be glad to do it.  But I can only do it if it's  32 before your lordship.  33 THE COURT:  No.  I don't think you need to do that.  Well, it's  34 really a question of how far we use next week and/or  35 the week after if necessary.  Is it not possible, Mr.  36 Rush, to finish the evidence in chief, leaving it open  37 so that it can be supplemented with ideas that might  38 arise during the summer, so that when we start in the  39 fall we will at least have an expectation that we  40 will, subject to anything that might arise between now  41 and then, start with the cross-examination?  And I  42 don't take Mr. Goldie to be saying that he couldn't  43 even start his cross-examination and do some of it,  44 but I don't know if it goes that far.  45 MR. GOLDIE:  Oh, I can certainly start.  There are other areas  46 that I can start a cross-examination on.  47 THE COURT:  That creates a problem for closing off the evidence 7509  N. Sterritt (for Plaintiffs)  In Chief by Mr. Rush  1 in chief.  2 MR. GOLDIE:  But I — and I'm not — I have no — well,  3 certainly if my friend wants to keep the evidence in  4 chief open, I have no objection to that.  Obviously I  5 can't object.  6 THE COURT:  Well, I would much prefer to use the extra time on  7 evidence than on watching video.  That can be fitted  8 in.  But what do you say, Mr. Rush?  Is it not  9 possible to stay and complete the evidence in chief --  10 MR. RUSH:  Well —  11 THE COURT:  — on the basis that Mr. Goldie has described that  12 he will not be able to start the cross-examination?  13 MR. RUSH:  Well, the first -- I guess I want to make one point  14 about the argument Mr. Goldie has made is that he  15 focusses his argument on the southwest territory and  16 the areas of change in there.  Those, of course, have  17 all been the subject matter of Mr. Stanley Williams'  18 evidence in which the affidavit was tendered on  19 November of 1987.  He's been examined and  20 cross-examined and maps have been introduced through  21 the evidence of Mr. Stanley Williams.  And so in terms  22 of that argument, I see absolutely no prejudice with  23 respect to --  24 THE COURT:  Well, I am not in a position to second-guess counsel  25 on whether or not a notice delivered about expert or  26 opinion evidence is -- changes the position of counsel  27 or not.  I can't -- I can't get into that.  I have to  28 accept counsel's statements when they say this is a  29 late notice.  It's something that I need time for to  30 study and consultation.  And I can't second-guess  31 that.  The same as I am in a position where I really  32 can't second-guess counsel on most of the things they  33 tell me.  Nor would I wish to.  There is simply the  34 question of, as I say, how we use the time next week.  35 As I say, speaking for myself, I speak for Mr.  36 Macaulay, as I think he said, we could use the time  37 for evidence.  38 MR. RUSH:  My lord, the submission I made to you this morning  39 was based upon our assessment of what we felt we could  40 do over the time that would be available to us in the  41 summer to try and sharpen and streamline the evidence  42 of Mr. Sterritt, given the fact that he is now giving  43 evidence as an expert.  And I must say that some of  44 our consideration has dwelt on the question of the  45 introduction of certain of the documents which have  46 been demanded of us.  And we have had to reconsider  47 that point.  So what we saw as the value of not 7510  N. Sterritt (for Plaintiffs)  In Chief by Mr. Rush  1 proceeding with the direct-examination at this time  2 was to consider it further, the development of the  3 evidence of Mr. Sterritt as an expert and to try to  4 hone that in.  Now, in my submission, I suppose we  5 could do it all on this weekend and develop that in  6 the first part of next week.  But as I look at the  7 task ahead, if the matter is going to go to September  8 anyway, I ask myself the question of why it's  9 necessary to do that, when there is evidence and I  10 think valued time to be spent watching the commission  11 video.  I might point out, my lord, that in addition  12 to other requests that have been made of the plaintiff  13 that there are some 16 hours of videos which have been  14 asked of us to produce to the defendants and we have  15 been -- obviously we have to review those videos in  16 order to familiarize ourselves with the contents  17 because we haven't viewed those videos and my friends  18 have asked for them.  Now, that's something we'd have  19 to do on the weekend.  Again, the question is:  Is  20 the -- is the task for us to compact that activity  21 into the weekend and the first part of next week in  22 order to complete a direct-examination which we know  23 itself will not complete, I think at this point, and  24 on the assumption that the cross-examination will  25 resume in September and carry on at that time?  And in  26 my submission, the submission that we made to you this  27 morning is the preferred way that we would like to go,  28 if that time is not available next week for the  29 completion of Mr. Sterritt's evidence.  30 THE COURT:  Well, I think the time is available.  It's just a  31 question of whether the cross-examination can be  32 undertaken.  If it can't, well, then the total  33 evidence of Mr. Sterritt can't be completed either in  34 two weeks or at all.  Well, as I say, I'm feeling more  35 and more captive and one of these days I might feel  36 that I've got to break out of that somewhat compliant  37 role.  But at the moment, in view of what counsel have  38 said, I don't really feel I have much choice but to  39 stand Mr. Sterritt down after today and spend next  40 week on videos.  I regret that.  I prefer to face his  41 evidence.  But I have to be governed by what counsel  42 tell me and based on what I have heard to now that  43 seems to be the only thing to do.  So I think  44 that's -- unless there is something else, that's what  45 we'll have to do.  That being so, I am going to assume  46 my independence and say we will only watch video for  47 one week.  I would have hoped that would be enough but 7511  N. Sterritt (for Plaintiffs)  In Chief by Mr. Rush  1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  MR.  THE  MR.  THE  MR.  I don't know.  That's what was suggested that we  finish.  RUSH:  Mr. Grant indicates to me that that probably would be  sufficient time.  COURT:  For the plaintiffs' video.  I haven't heard from the  defendants what else they might want, if anything.  I  haven't heard from them yet.  GOLDIE:  I am not in a position to make any comment at this  time.  All right.  Let's go.  COURT:  RUSH:  Q  THE  THE  I refer you to Volume 1, Mr. Sterritt.  Photograph  book Volume 1.  I'd ask you to look at photograph  number three.  A   Page?  Q   61 on the index, Mr. Sterritt, that's indicated as  being airborne over Shelf -- I'm sorry, it's indicated  as being airborne over Sam Green Creek.  And as a view  southwest to Shawiliba Creek.  Sorry.  My eyes are  playing strange tricks on me.  It's west and then over  Sam Green Creek.  Do you see that?  If you would just  look at number 61 then, Mr. Sterritt, if you can  identify that.  Photo three.  A   Oh.  Okay.  I'm sorry.  Yeah.  Yes.  Q   Can you identify that photograph?  A   Yes.  Sam Green Creek is on the map as Xsi adeea,  X-s-i a-d-e-e-a.  And the area that you see there is  around the head of Sam Green Creek and the label on  the Xeroxed copy photo number three, that's what that  refers to, Galanahadeea, G-a-1-a-n-a-h-a-d-e-e-a.  And  that creek, Sam Green Creek, is a boundary.  Pete  Muldoe described that creek on the right-hand side --  or pardon me, the west side of Sam Green Creek, it  flows more or less from north to south.  On the west  side is the territory of Wiigyet and on the east side  it's described in the affidavit of Robert Jackson Sr.  as the territory of Miluulak, M-i-1-u-u-l-a-k.  Q   Okay.  That's all I have to ask you about Volume 1.  COURT:  Could I just equire.  What is the confluence shown  in photograph four?  A   That coming from along the lower part of the picture  is the Skeena River.  COURT:  Yes.  A  And it goes out to the right.  Coming into the Skeena,  the main river is Babine River.  That's about five  miles below Kisgagas and the valley coming into the  centre of the picture from the right-hand side coming 7512  N. Sterritt (for Plaintiffs)  In Chief by Mr. Rush  1  2  3  4  5  THE  COURT  6  MR.  RUSH:  7  Q  8  9  10  11  12  13  A  14  Q  15  16  17  18  THE  COURT  19  MR.  RUSH:  20  Q  21  22  23  24  25  A  26  27  MR.  RUSH:  28  29  30  Q  31  32  33  34  35  A  36  37  38  39  40  Q  41  A  42  43  44  Q  45  A  46  47  down is Xsi getsic, and that is spelled X-s-i space  g-e-t-s-i-c.  And that is a boundary between Niikyap  on the left-hand side of the picture and Gwoimt,  G-w-o-i-m-t, on the right-hand side of the picture.  :  Thank you.  Mr. Sterritt, you made mention of Robert Jackson.  There is an affidavit of Mr. Jackson's, Exhibit 598.  That's Robert Jackson Sr.  And on page six of that  affidavit under paragraph six reference is made to Xsi  adeea territory, Sam Green Creek.  Is that the area  that you have made reference to in photo three on 61?  Yes, it is.  That's spelling is the same as given previously by Mr.  Sterritt.  That's all I have to ask you about that  volume.  My lord, I think the volume was an exhibit  for identification.  :  Well, if it wasn't, it is now.  It's marked 377.  Thank you.  I'd like to ask you to look at Volume 2 of  this photographic volume.  Exhibit 654 now, Mr.  Sterritt, if you wouldn't mind taking the photographic  index for Volume 2 out of the front of it so you can  have a quick reference to it.  I don't know if I can do that without losing the  photographs.  No.  Okay.  Go ahead.  My lord, I am going to direct the witness' attention  to certain of the photographs in this volume which  have not been admitted in the Notices to Admit.  And Mr. Sterritt, if you look to page one, please, to  photograph number one.  Perhaps before you do that, is  the photographs that now begin in photograph Volume 2  here, is this a separate field trip of the one that  you were on in photo one?  This is a separate field trip.  I fly -- we fly from  Hazelton on this trip on up.  I'm not sure whether  this is a trip to the head of the Skeena or not.  I'd  have to check it.  No.  This trip we go to a mountain  near the -- near Slamgeesh Lake.  Yes.  And then we go west from there to a mountain west of  the Nass River and then we go north to the very head  of the Skeena.  Okay.  Do you recall the date of that trip?  It's not long after the trips that were taken on June  22 and 23.  I don't recall whether it was the 24th or  the 26th. 7513  N. Sterritt (for Plaintiffs)  In Chief by Mr. Rush  1  Q  2  MR.  GOLDIE  3  A  4  THE  COURT:  5  MR.  RUSH:  6  THE  COURT:  7  MR.  RUSH:  8  THE  COURT:  9  MR.  RUSH:  10  THE  COURT:  11  MR.  RUSH:  12  Q  13  THE  COURT:  14  15  16  17  18  MR.  RUSH:  19  THE  COURT:  20  MR.  RUSH:  21  Q  22  23  24  A  25  Q  26  i  27  28  29  A  30  31  Q  32  33  A  34  Q  35  36  A  37  38  39  1  40  41  Q  42  A  43  Q  44  A  45  MR.  GOLDIE  46  MR.  RUSH:  47  A  All right.  :  What year?  Of 1983.  That's not snow that's on the ground on page 3?  Page two, my lord?  Page three.  Page three.  Perhaps that's not where you are starting.  No.  I was starting on page one.  Oh, I am sorry.  You will notice on page two, Mr. Sterritt.  It's all my fault, Mr. Rush.  I am sorry.  I picked  up Volume 4 instead of Volume 2.  I do apologize.  I  just assumed that our usually efficient clerk didn't  put them in the chronological order.  It's all her  fault.  You are on page one.  Page one.  Yes.  Thank you.  Photo one.  And Mr. Sterritt, on page two, before I get to photo  one, is indicated on my photocopy that this is a  heli-flight of June 24, '83.  Oh, that's right, yes.  All right.  Photo one, page one, is that view that is  depicted there of any particular site?  It's not  identified in the index and I -- is that the beginning  of a film or --  Yes, it is.  I have just loaded the film and snapped  on past where the camera was open.  All right.  Please go to two, please.  Page two,  photograph one.  Yes.  Now, can you explain where photograph one is taken and  what it is of?  Yes.  That is a creek within the territory of Wiigyet.  It flows into the Skeena.  You can see the Skeena  cutting -- it flows south there from right to left  diagonally across the picture.  That creek is  within -- or are you looking at photograph number one?  Photograph number one?  Yes.  On page two.  Yes.  :  May I see what you are looking at?  This .  Now, in the  almost the centre of the photograph you 7514  N. Sterritt (for Plaintiffs)  In Chief by Mr. Rush  1  2  3  4  5  Q  6  A  7  8  9  Q  10  A  11  Q  12  THE COURT  13  14  A  15  16  MR. RUSH:  17  Q  18  19  20  21  A  22  23  Q  24  A  25  THE COURT  26  A  27  MR. RUSH:  28  Q  29  30  31  A  32  33  34  Q  35  A  36  Q  37  38  A  39  Q  40  A  41  42  Q  43  44  A  45  Q  46  A  47  see a white -- you can see a white slash there.  That  is the waterfall near the edge of the Skeena.  From  the creek -- and that is Xsa win sta muun, X-s-a  w-i-n, s-t-a m-u-u-n.  That's named in the photocopy?  Yes.  And this site is downstream from the mouth of  the Kuldo River, which appears in the next photograph,  photograph number two.  And whose territory is that?  Wiigyet, the territory of Wiigyet.  Thank you.  :  Number two is the Kuldo flowing into the Skeena, is  it?  That's the -- yes, that's the junction where Kuldo  comes into the Skeena.  Mr. Sterritt, if you will just move along in these  photographs.  The direction I take it that these  photographs indicate a progressive movement in the  helicopter in a northerly direction?  Yes.  Just as we go along on page 3 on photograph  number three, that's Old Kuldo.  Gowal mihl.  That's Old Kuldo?  Yes.  G-o-w --  :  Paragraph number three?  On page 3.  G-o-w-a-1 space m-i-h-1.  And on four there is in the photocopy a feature  identified as din.  I think we know that to mean trap,  is it?  Yes.  That's the area of the fish traps at Old Kuldo  right in the canyon there.  That's what din refers to,  d-i-n.  All right.  And then will you go on to page 4, please?  Yes.  The bottom two photographs, three and four, indicate a  panoramic shot?  No.  All right.  No, they wouldn't.  Because we are flying and I am not  in a fixed location.  All right.  Okay.  I want to direct your attention to  page seven.  Yes.  And on page seven can you identify photo number two?  Yes.  The creek coming from the top of the photograph  to the bottom is called Xsi an hloo'o.  That's X-s-i 7515  N. Sterritt (for Plaintiffs)  In Chief by Mr. Rush  1  2  3  4  5  Q  6  7  A  8  9  10  Q  11  A  12  Q  13  14  A  15  16  17  18  19  20  Q  21  A  22  23  24  Q  25  26  A  27  THE COURT  28  A  29  THE COURT  30  MR. RUSH:  31  Q  32  33  A  34  Q  35  A  36  Q  37  A  38  Q  39  A  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  Q  space a-n space h-l-o-o-'o.  And the Skeena is just  below there and there is an area on the Skeena  described in the affidavit of Walter Blackwater called  Git An Hloo'o.  There is a spelling there in your photocopy G-i-t A-n  H-l-o-o-'-o?  Yes.  And this would be the first creek north of  Canyon Creek as -- on the west side of the Skeena as  you fly up the Skeena.  And whose territory?  That's part of the area of Niist, N-i-i-s-t.  Yes.  And photograph number three, Mr. Sterritt, can  you identify that?  That's a photograph showing the location of fourth  cabin and it's -- there is a cleared area just under  the arrow on the Xerox.  Actually it's grown in now,  but that was the area where fourth cabin was located.  And that's part of the territory of Gwinin nitxw  G-w-i-n-i-n space n-i-t-x-w.  And on photograph four?  There is an area just past fourth cabin that is called  Cottonwood camp.  And I don't recall the Gitksan name  for that area at this time.  And Cottonwood camp, is there a -- can you give us a  distance from fourth cabin?  No, I couldn't.  :  How far north of Old Kuldo are we here?  Oh, we're about 20 miles.  :  Thank you.  And Mr. Sterritt, Git An Hloo'o identified in  photograph two, you said, was in Niist territory?  Yes.  Do you know which of the Niist territories that is?  Oh, that's the one at Canyon Lake.  Okay.  Would you turn to page nine, photograph two?  Yes.  What's that a photograph of?  That is -- well, the Skeena River is in the foreground  and it's running -- it runs downstream from left to  right and that is on the south side of the Skeena  River, and that is -- Gitangas, that's the village  that was referred to by Mary McKenzie by David  Gunanoot in his commission as the beginning point for  their migration and it is on both sides of the river  and this is part of Gitangas on the south side.  Is that a place close to a creek? 7516  N. Sterritt (for Plaintiffs)  In Chief by Mr. Rush  1  A  2  3  4  Q  5  6  A  7  Q  8  A  9  THE  COURT  10  11  A  12  THE  COURT  13  A  14  15  16  17  18  THE  COURT  19  A  20  21  THE  COURT  22  A  23  THE  COURT  24  A  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  THE  COURT  32  MR.  RUSH:  33  Q  34  A  35  Q  36  A  37  38  Q  39  A  40  41  42  Q  43  44  A  45  Q  46  A  47  Downstream from there is a creek that comes in from  the -- flows north into the Skeena.  It's called  Xsa'andi1gan, X-s-a-'-a-n-d-i-l-g-a-n.  And was there an English -- or is there an English  name for that on the maps?  No, there isn't.  All right.  And G-i-t-a-n-g-a-s.  :  Mr. Sterritt, I thought what you flew over we didn't  stop at Gitangas.  No.  :  I thought it was on the north side of the Skeena?  There is two sides.  There is one --.  Okay.  Looking  at photograph number one we are flying up the Skeena,  we are actually flying almost east here and on the  left-hand side on the -- of the Skeena about at the --  you can see two clearings there.  :  Yes.  That's the area that I pointed out to you as we flew  down the Skeena.  :  Yes.  That's what you are referring to.  :  That's on the north side, yes.  That's on the north side.  That's the part.  And when  I went here with David Gunanoot and James Morrison,  they pointed out that there was two -- that Gitangas  was on both sides.  One side is called Gitangas and  the other part of Gap Gas, G-a-p G-a-s.  And both are  generally referred to as Gitangas, but Gap Gas is on  the north side.  :  All right.  Now, on page ten, Mr. Sterritt, photo one.  Yes.  What view does that show?  That's a view probably northwest.  I will confirm  that.  Yes.  It's northwest at Stephen Peak.  Which one is Stephen Peak?  The one right at the end of the antenna.  And this is  where we land to do -- as a station to do photographs  from that area.  Okay.  If you will go now to number eleven, photograph  number two.  Yes.  Can you indicate what that depicts?  The -- on the -- at this point I think we are still  airborne.  We are just coming in to land and I take a 7517  N. Sterritt (for Plaintiffs)  In Chief by Mr. Rush  1 shot to the east.  Northeast.  And the Slamgeesh River  2 valley comes in, is the first valley to the right or  3 to the -- yeah, the right-hand side of the mountain  4 that's in the foreground there.  It's between the  5 first mountain and then the far mountain.  And that's  6 what I described when we were near Mosque Mountain, we  7 were into the distance about just to the left of  8 centre of that photograph looking this way.  9 Q   The reference to Sagat, the peak that it is pointing  10 to directly below the A, is that the feature --  11 A   Yes, it —  12 Q   -- it refers to?  13 A   Yes, it is.  S-a-g-a-t.  14 Q   And in whose territory is the mountain Sagat located?  15 A  Within the territory of Gwinin nitxw.  16 Q   All right.  Thank you.  17 A   That's described by Walter Blackwater in his  18 affidavit.  19 Q   Mr. Sterritt, would you go to page 12, please?  20 A   Yes.  21 Q   The photograph in the upper left-hand corner, number  22 one, it indicates James Morrison as Stephens Peak?  23 A   Yes.  24 Q   Is that James Morrison who is pointing there?  25 A   Yes.  26 Q   Page 13, please photograph one.  27 A   Yes.  28 Q   In the distance there are a number of peaks and in  29 what direction are we facing as we look into this  30 photograph?  31 A   That's west and the location here is west of the  32 junction of the Blackwater River and the Nass River  33 and this is -- we are within the territory of Niist  34 and this is described in Walter Blackwater's affidavit  35 for the Xsi wuu wiitid, X-s-i space w-u-u space  36 w-i-t-w -- w-i-i-t-i-d.  37 Q   Okay.  In photo -- in that photo number one which you  38 have been describing in the photocopy, there is a  39 designation of a location on the mountain, the west  40 junction, and then you have Xsi txemsin, X-s-i  41 t-x-e-m-s-i-n, and that's the Nass River, it is?  42 A   Yes.  43 Q   And then it says Xsi duutswit, X-s-i, new word  44 d-u-u-t-s-w-i-t.  Is there an English name for that?  45 A   Blackwater River.  46 Q   All right.  Now, earlier this morning, Mr. Sterritt,  47 you made reference to a Xsi duutswit, and I think you 7518  N. Sterritt (for Plaintiffs)  In Chief by Mr. Rush  1  2  A  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  Q  14  15  A  16  17  18  19  20  21  Q  22  A  23  Q  24  25  A  26  Q  27  A  28  Q  29  30  31  A  32  Q  33  34  35  A  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  Q  45  A  46  47  THE COURT  indicated that was in the Luus territory?  Yes.  That's a creek on the east side of the Skeena  near -- very close to Old Kuldo, which is also called  Xsi duutswit.  This is -- sometimes Blackwater River  is also called Xsi duuts ax, and that would be X-s-i  d-u-u-t-s a-x.  On the map it would be Dam duchax  River, D-a-m d-u-c-h-a-x, which is the way -- well, it  comes from Dam duchax, which is the Dam duchax River  or Dam duchax Lakes which is Blackwater Lake.  It's an  effort to write the Indian name by the people who  prepared the map, the National Topographic Series or  other maps.  Would you look at page 21.  Photograph number one,  what does that show?  This is the Muckaboo -- Muckaboo Creek flows into the  Nass River just -- and this site is in the southwest  corner between the junction of Blackwater -- or Nass  River and Muckaboo Creek.  And that's a station, a  survey station on the mountain top there and that's  all that's a photograph of.  And whose territory is that?  That's in the territory of Niist.  And do you know in whose affidavit that territory is  attested to?  Walter Blackwater.  Now, if you will go, please, to 22.  Yes.  In the bottom two photographs, three and four, they  are described in the photocopies as aerial views of  Win skahl guuhl on Nass River?  Yes.  W-i-n new word s-k-a-h-1 new word g-o-o -- I am sorry,  g-u-u-h-1.  What is the feature that is Win skahl  guuhl as you refer to?  It's the narrowest point on the Nass River there.  And  it's a place where it was even narrower in the past  and people could actually run and jump it.  And  this -- when we did this flight in early June we came  down the Nass River and this area was plugged with  timber.  This is during the overview.  It's just when  we landed at Sallysout Creek when David Blackwater got  out and I took the front seat again.  It's the same  location.  Turning your attention now, Mr. Sterritt, to page 26.  That site place is in legends or is mentioned in a  number of legends by David Gunanoot and Pete Muldoe.  :  26 did you say? 7519  N. Sterritt (for Plaintiffs)  In Chief by Mr. Rush  1  A  2    I  MR. RUSH  3  Q  4  5  A  6  Q  7  A  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  Q  17  A  18  Q  19  20  A  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  Q  28  29  30  31  A  32  33  Q  34  A  35  36  Q  37  38  A  39  Q  40  41  42  A  43  44  45  46  Q  47  A  The last site at Win skahl guuhl.  Okay.  Page 26.  Yes.  I'd like to direct your attention to photograph  number three.  Yes.  And what is depicted there?  That's a view south.  The Kispiox River is to the left  of the picture and so we're looking in the same  direction as the flow of the Kispiox River.  Sganisim  habaxsw is a mountain at the head of McCully --  McCully Creek, which was discussed in Pete Muldoe's  affidavit.  And the mountain that you see to the right  of it behind it is part of Wii masxwit, W-i-1  m-a-s-x-w-i-t, and that was described by Mary Johnson  in her testimony.  The photocopy makes a reference to Sganisim habasxw?  Yes.  Is that the hill feature that's directly below the  arrow?  Yes, it is.  S-g-a-n-i-s-i-m h-a-b-a-s-x-w.  Now, that  is a boundary point.  There are a number of hereditary  chiefs who come off that boundary.  Kliyem lax haa,  Delgamuukw, and Gwiiyeehl, G-w-i-i-y-e-e-h-1, and  then -- and also it also is part of an external  boundary and Kitwancool is to the right-hand side of  that area.  Okay.  I am showing you again map 486 that was  introduced through Mr. Muldoe.  There is a feature  that's identified in the left-hand side of that as Wii  laa habasxw?  That's the same feature.  That's W-i-i space 1-a-a  space h-a-b-a-x-s-w.  The same feature as --  Wii laa habaxsw, W-i-i space 1-a-a space  h-a-b-a-x-s-w.  You made reference to the feature that Mary Johnson  referred to?  Yes.  In this photograph.  Which of the features as we  looked into in photograph was it that she made  reference to?  Well, the rounded mountain under the arrow is Sganisim  habasxw.  The mountain to the right of it is behind  Sganisim habasxw or south of it and that is Wii  masxwit.  Is it right on the edge of photograph number three?  Well, you can see the -- almost all of the mountain. 7520  N. Sterritt (for Plaintiffs)  In Chief by Mr. Rush  1  2  3  Q  4  A  5  6  Q  7  8  MR. GOLDIE  9  A  10  MR. GOLDIE  11  A   '  12  MR. RUSH:  13  Q  14  A  15  16  17  Q  18  A  19  Q  20  A  21  22  23  24  25  26  Q  27  A  28  Q  29  30  A  31  Q  32  A  33  34  Q  35  A  36  Q  37  38  39  A  40  41  42  43  MR. GOLDIE  44  A  45  46  THE COURT:  47  A  It comes up and then goes down again.  That portion is  the mountain I am referring to.  All right.  Thank you.  Would you look to page 27 now.  Yes.  Well, I caught Glen Williams marking his  territory there.  Yes.  That was a feature that could not be identified  in the admissions made by the Province.  :  And what is the feature?  Glen Williams.  No.  :  The statement is N.A.  Well, it's —  Where is this located, Mr. Sterritt?  That's on Kitwancool territory.  It's at a fuel stop  that the helicopter company had.  It is -- it's west  of Brown Bear Lake.  All right.  About five minutes by helicopter.  Photograph three, what does that show?  I don't know the English name, but that's Taam an loom  stoox, T-a-a-m space a-n space 1-o-o-m space  s-t-o-o-x.  It's very close to Brown Bear Lake on the  east side.  Now, Brown Bear Lake is in Kitwancool  territory and that's photograph number four on page  27.  Brown Bear Lake is shown in that?  Yes.  That's Brown Bear Lake.  All right.  Thank you.  Now, we'll go to 29.  Photograph number three?  Yes.  What does that show, Mr. Sterritt?  Once again, that shows the same mountain we were  looking at earlier, but closer view of it.  Is the Sganisim habaxsw?  That's S-g-a-n-i-s-i-m space h-a-b-a-s-x-w.  There are a number of features and there is some in  the foreground and the background.  Which one is that?  Sganisim habasxw?  There are three sets of ridges or mountains there.  The middle one.  There is the dark ridge coming across  the centre of the picture.  Right behind is a mountain  and that is the one that we are referring to.  :  Centre?  In the centre, yes.  The long sloping mountain in the  centre of the picture.  Well, the middle one is Sganisim habasxw, is it?  Yes. 7521  N. Sterritt (for Plaintiffs)  In Chief by Mr. Rush  1  MR.  RUSH:  2  Q  3  4  5  A  6  7  8  Q  9  A  10  11  12  13  14  Q  15  16  A  17  Q  18  A  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  THE  COURT  29  30  A  31  32  THE  COURT  33  34  35  A  36  THE  COURT  37  38  39  A  40  THE  COURT  41  A  42  THE  COURT  43  A  44  THE  COURT  45  A  46  47  MR.  RUSH:  31, please.  Now, Mr. Sterritt, on my copy I have two  photographs.  These appear to be enlarged on the  left-hand side?  The Xeroxed copy is a copy of the original picture  which was that size and then these are photo  preproductions that are reduced in size.  All right.  And what is 31, photo one, the top one?  That's the — that's Xsihl Guugan that's X-s-i-h-1  space G-u-u-g-a-n.  It's the Taylor River.  It flows  south into the Nass River.  It's -- it flows through  the territory of Gyolugyet who is described in the  affidavit of Richard Benson.  Now, Mr. Sterritt, did you take photographs one and  two here?  Yes, I did.  And what was the occasion you were taking these?  It was a field trip with Pete Muldoe, Albert Tait and  David Blackwater.  But we encountered -- we did make a  circuit, but we encountered storm all the way and we  got some pictures but we weren't able to land on  mountain tops or do any other work, so we do have some  features, but the photograph number two, it has the  label at the top, Xsimaxhlaa Biluust valley and  background.  That part of that should be struck out.  It's Muckaboo Creek that's in the background, but  that's not the right Gitksan name for that creek.  :  Actually the Taylor doesn't flow into the Nass  territory of Gyolugyet, does it?  The Taylor River -- Gyolugyet's territory is all  around the -- just about all of the Taylor River.  :  Yes.  But this map I have shows the Taylor running  into the Nass in Kitwancool territory.  That's where  they actually join?  No, it shouldn't be.  :  I am reading the map wrong.  Oh, I see.  I am sorry.  I guess the Nass doesn't flow into the Mezziadin Lake,  does it?  No, it doesn't.  :  Guess it continues on?  It skirts just below it.  :  Yes.  And then the Taylor.  The spelling --  :  Yes, all right.  -- for the lady, the reporter,  b-i-1-u-u-s-t.  X-s-i, m-a-x-h-1-a, 7522  N. Sterritt (for Plaintiffs)  In Chief by Mr. Rush  1 Q   You are suggesting Mr. Sterritt, that the description  2 refers to Muckaboo Creek and that the name beginning  3 Xsimaxhlaa Biluust Valley should be taken out, is that  4 right?  5 A  Muckaboo Creek can be left, but not the Gitksan  6 description.  7 Q   All right.  8 A  Muckaboo Creek is in the background.  It's up at the  9 head of that.  10 Q   When you took the photographs one and two on page 31,  11 are you at a position that is close to the junction of  12 the Nass and the Taylor Rivers?  13 A   No.  We are up a good ten -- oh, more than that, 20  14 miles up the Taylor River.  If you look on the  15 photograph the mountainside coming down from the right  16 and swinging across and up into those clouds in behind  17 you can see a shaded part.  That is almost the end of  18 the Taylor River.  We are well up it here.  19 Q   Now, on page 32 the photographs indicate a view to the  20 west of Xsimaxhlaa Biluust?  21 A   That's the same thing.  It should be -- it's actually  22 Luu silgam baad txensem.  That's the name of the  23 Muckaboo River.  That's L-u-u s-i-1-g-a-m space  24 b-a-a-d space t-x-e-n-s-e-m.  In fact, Xsimaxhlaa  25 Biluust is the next valley north of here.  So that  26 should be crossed out.  That is the Muckaboo --  27 Muckaboo Creek and in fact the telegraph line ran  28 right up this creek.  This is looking towards eighth  29 cabin.  30 Q   And you say the next valley north of that is  31 Xsimaxhlaa Biluust?  32 A   Yes.  The Konigus, if you were looking at it.  33 K-o-n-i-g-u-s River is in fact Xsimaxhlaa Biluust.  34 Q   All right.  Now, photograph number two on page 33?  35 A   Yes.  36 Q   Can you identify that photograph for us?  37 A   That's a view south and that's Niist territory.   It's  38 looking down on the map.  It would be Kontsinta Creek,  39 K-o-n-t-s-i-n-t-a.  And that is Xsi luu witwiitid,  40 X-s-i 1-u-u w-i-t-w-i-i-t-i-d.  41 Q   All right.  If you will go, please, to 34, the  42 photocopy on photograph one says looking east at  43 Miinhl lax mihl.  What is that feature?  44 A  What that means in Gitksan is the foot of the burn.  45 And that whole hillside that you see in photograph  46 number one right behind the clouds and all along there  47 is the area, the specific area within the territory 7523  N. Sterritt (for Plaintiffs)  In Chief by Mr. Rush  1 known as Miinhl lax mihl, M-i-i-n-h-1 space l-a-x  2 space m-i-h-1.  That is on the -- that area is on the  3 east side of the Nass River, the Nass River runs from  4 right to left across that photograph.  That is the  5 territory of Kliiyem lax haa and Walter Blackwater  6 describes that in his affidavit.  7 Q   Now, Mr. Sterritt, on page 35 there are some  8 directions given on the photocopies in photo one  9 looking south down Xsi Txemsem.  There is a river  10 shown in the photograph.  Is that the Nass River?  11 A   Yes, it is.  12 Q   And similarly on photograph two is the river that  13 ribbons through the right side of that photograph, is  14 that the Nass?  15 A   The river coming in from the bottom of the picture,  16 the bottom right of the picture, and going into the  17 middle of the picture is Muckaboo Creek and you should  18 strike Xsi maxhla biluust because -- X-s-i space  19 m-a-x-h-1-a space b-i-1-u-u-s-t.  But it's Muckaboo  20 Creek and then it goes where it goes down and turns  21 sharply in the centre of the picture is where Muckaboo  22 Creek meets the Nass River.  That is a boundary point.  23 The territory of Kliiyem lax haa right from that  24 junction comes down across the height of land to the  25 left-hand corner of the picture and then on up the  26 mountain behind us and it also from that point goes up  27 the mountain diagonally in the direction of the upper  28 left-hand corner of picture number two.  The territory  29 of Niist is on the right-hand side of that and the  30 territory of Kliiyem lax haa is on the left-hand side  31 of the line that goes up to the left, the upper  32 left-hand corner.  33 THE COURT:  Is it convenient to take the afternoon adjournment?  34 Mr. Rush.  35 MR. RUSH:  All right.  Thank you.  36  37 (PROCEEDINGS ADJOURNED PURSUANT TO AFTERNOON BREAK)  38  39 I hereby certify the foregoing to be  40 a true and accurate transcript of the  41 proceedings herein to the best of my  42 skill and ability.  43  44 Laara Yardley,  45 Official Reporter,  46 United Reporting Service Ltd.  47 7524  N. Sterritt (for plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Rush  1 (PROCEEDINGS RESUMED PURSUANT TO A SHORT ADJOURNMENT)  2 THE REGISTRAR:  Order in court.  3 THE COURT:  Mr. Rush?  4 MR. RUSH:  5 Q   Volume 3, page 15, photographs 1, 2, 3 and 4 cannot be  6 identified, Mr. Sterritt?  7 A  Volume 3, page?  8 THE COURT:  Page 15.  9 MR. RUSH:  10 Q   Page 15.  11 A   Yes.  12 Q   This is said to be at Bear Lake in July, 1985?  13 A   Yes, it is.  14 Q   Is there anything more to say about that except  15 there's a number of people seemingly enjoying  16 themselves and some food?  17 A   Yes.  That's right at -- on the -- on a grassy level  18 east of Bear Lake about 200 yards.  In picture number  19 4 by the coffee pot you can see Alfred Joseph.  20 MR. GOLDIE:  I think the point is that on the NTS map we  21 couldn't find anything that's related to that.  22 THE COURT:  Yes.  23 THE WITNESS:  Okay.  That is almost directly east of the outlet  24 at the north end of Bear Lake.  And just going back  25 very quickly to page 14, on photo number 3 it's  26 Wiigyet, David Gunanoot, and he's standing.  Almost  27 just right on the snow behind him is the boundary  28 between Wii Gaak, my father, on the right-hand side  29 and Nii Kyap on the left-hand side.  And the mountain  30 that rises up behind him is Saa Hahla Gyoot,  31 S-a-a-space-H-a-h-1-a-space-G-y-o-o-t.  And the  32 picture on the upper right corner is my father on the  33 right-hand side, Neil Sterritt, and William Charlie on  34 the left-hand side.  William Charlie is from the house  35 of Miluulak and my father is Wii Gaak.  36 Q   Page 16 it's also said to be at Bear Lake.  Is this  37 the -- the same gathering, same place at the same  3 8 time?  39 A   Yes.  And you can see in photograph number 1 Bear Lake  40 behind the ladies who are dancing there.  41 Q   And on the bottom right-hand corner, photograph number  42 4, lahal is a game?  43 A   It's a gambling game, 1-a-h-a-l, lahal.  44 Q   Thank you.  19, please.  45 A   Yes.  46 Q   Photograph number 1.  It's said that the topographic  47 details are not identifiable.  Where was this 7525  N. Sterritt (for plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Rush  1 photograph taken?  2 A   That's on the -- at Gatangas, G-a-t-a-n-g-a-s.  3 Q   Which side of the river?  4 A   On the north side of the river, at the -- at the edge  5 of the clearing.  That was shown in the other earlier  6 photographs.  7 THE COURT:  On the north side you say?  8 THE WITNESS:  Yes.  It's the clearing that we showed you as we  9 flew over, and that's the territory of Gwinin Nitxw.  10 And Edward John is standing beside my father in that  11 photograph.  12 MR. RUSH:  13 Q   The occasion of this photograph, is that at the  14 time -- that was about the same time as the Bear Lake  15 gathering shown to be on July -- in July of 1985?  16 A   Yes.  17 Q   22, page 22, volume 3, photograph number 3?  18 A   Yes.  19 Q   What's the scene depicted in the background?  Can you  20 tell us what we're looking into?  21 A  We talked earlier about Bird Hill --  22 Q   Yes.  23 A   -- today.  24 Q   Yes?  25 A   There's a hill coming off -- right below my father's  26 hand, the left hand -- I mean on his right side --  27 Q   Yes.  28 A   -- when you look into the picture.  It runs to the --  29 from the left to the right of the picture.  That's --  30 that runs out and becomes Bird Hill at the east end,  31 and that's what we described earlier.  That's part of  32 his territory.  33 Q   Page 25, please.  34 A   Yes.  35 Q   The photograph number 3.  On the photocopy it says  36 "South end of Tsim Gehl Lo'op", T-s-i-m-new  37 word-G-e-h-1-new word-L-o-apostrophe-o-o-p.  Which  38 feature is Tsim Gehl Lo'op?  39 A   Oh, I'm looking at the wrong photograph.  Photograph  40 number 3?  41 Q   Yes.  42 A   Coming in the left-hand side of the photograph, there  43 is a mountain rising up at a diagonal, and then it  44 runs along.  If you follow that same mountain along on  45 to photograph number 4, it comes down into the --  46 diagonally into the centre of photograph number 4 onto  47 the hill in the foreground.  All of that and more -- 7526  N. Sterritt (for plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Rush  1 well, all of that is Tsim Gehl Lo'op.  And then Tsim  2 Gehl Lo'op continues to run north behind there.  3 That's T-s-i-m-space-G-e-h-1-space-L-o-apostrophe-o-p.  4 That is -- the valley in the foreground is the valley  5 of Xsu wii ax, X-s-u-space-w-i-i-space-a-x.  And  6 that's -- the Sustut River runs through there, and  7 that area and the area that we're standing on is the  8 area of Tsabux, T-s-a-b-u-x.  And that's all described  9 by Abel Sampson in his affidavit.  10 Q   Okay.  Could you please go to 34?  11 A   I will mention -- I mentioned that there was some  12 photographs that spoiled.  I did a whole series of  13 them.  That's the mountain from there on.  Going to  14 the right to the east, those are the whole area that I  15 lost in 1983, the photographs that I took right up to  16 Moose Valley, and this -- so that's the reason for  17 these -- part of the reason for these photographs.  18 Q   As a -- an attempt to replace the ones that had been  19 lost in the earlier --  2 0 A   Yes.  And to cover --  21 Q   All right.  Page 34, Mr. Sterritt.  Photograph 3,  22 topographic detail here cannot be identified.  Where  23 is this lean-to located in the place where these women  24 are located?  25 A   That's several hundred feet immediately east of the  26 north end of Bear Lake at the outlet.  27 Q   Mr. Sterritt, in the index it's indicated page 35  28 "Bear Lake not applicable, not applicable".  It's not  29 even in this binder.  30 A   The reason for that is that the view is -- well,  31 almost similar to Mr. Goldie's comments, that you  32 can't see a feature in there, but that is the location  33 of those photographs that I've just given in terms of  34 a north direction, southeast or west direction.  35 Q   Well, there are no photographs under 35.  That's the  36 point.  All right.  Thank you.  Number 5.  We'll go to  37 number 5 now, my lord.  Page 8, Mr. Sterritt.  1 and  38 2, Mr. Sterritt, can you say where those are located?  39 A   Yes, I can.  We are located southwest of Slamgeesh  40 Lake.  This is on a trip that I take with Walter  41 Blackwater, David Blackwater and Nancy Supernault,  42 S-u-p-e-r-n-a-u-1-t.  And right below Walter  43 Blackwater's shoulder there is a valley running out to  44 the left, and that is on the map as Shilahou,  45 S-h-i-1-a-h-o-u.  And that is Xsi lax uu in our  46 language, which is X-s-i-space-1-a-x-space-u-u.  And  47 the other photograph is looking from the same location 7527  N. Sterritt (for plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Rush  1 northwest almost directly towards Dam Dochax,  2 D-a-m-d-o-c-h-a-x, which is commonly called Blackwater  3 Lake.  4 Q   When was this trip that you took with Walter  5 Blackwater?  6 A   I can get it from -- from here.  7 Q   You're looking at the flight lines' map, are you?  8 A   September 6th, 1986.  That's right.  September the  9 6th, 1986.  10 Q   All right.  And that's Mr. Blackwater in photo 2 on  11 page 8?  12 A   Yes.  13 Q   Mr. Walter Blackwater Senior?  14 A   Yes.  15 Q   And which territory is located?  16 A   He's standing almost directly on the boundary of  17 between Gwinin Nitxw, which would come in towards the  18 viewer, us, and we're looking northwest, and the area  19 we're looking at is the territory of Wii Minosik.  20 Q   Thank you.  Do you know which hereditary chief speaks  21 to those territories in his or her affidavit?  22 A  Walter Blackwater speaks to both of them.  23 Q   And who told you about the names that are located on  24 the photograph here?  25 A  Walter Blackwater, David Blackwater, Nancy Supernault,  26 and I have also --  27 MR. GOLDIE:  Well, I —  28 MR. RUSH:  Thank you.  29 MR. GOLDIE:  -- interjected with respect to those before, my  30 lord.  31 THE COURT:  Yes.  32 MR. RUSH:  33 Q   Mr. Sterritt, please go to 14.  The middle photograph  34 identifies Nancy Supernault, Walter Blackwater, David  35 Blackwater and gives their Gitksan names; is that  36 right?  37 A   Yes.  Except that Walter Blackwater has another name  38 as well.  39 Q   All right.  40 A   But we can go by that one for now.  41 Q   It's located on Andamahl?  42 A  Andamahl.  43 Q   A-n-d-a-m-a-h-1.  44 A   Yes.  45 Q   Photographs number 1 and 2, where are they located?  46 A   On page 14?  47 Q   Yes.  What view are we looking into? 752?  N. Sterritt (for plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Rush  1 A   The -- in photograph -- of the three of them, we're  2 looking northwest once again.  The other photograph at  3 the top left, photograph number 1 is looking generally  4 south from this same station.  5 Q   Okay.  On the index it indicates south and then it  6 says in brackets "Canyon Lake not", I take it visible,  7 "not vis"?  8 A   That's right.  It would be back over the mountains in  9 the distance there.  10 Q   And 2 is taken in generally the same direction?  11 A   Similar direction, yes, a little farther to the --  12 that would be swinging a little more to the east.  13 Q   16, please.  Location of 2 and 3.  It's said that this  14 is at Ant Khelaa, A-n-t-new word-K-h-e-1-a-a?  15 A  Ant Khelaa.  16 Q   Thank you.  17 A  And this is the same area where we touched down on the  18 overview.  19 Q   Is it possible to site this to a place that is given  2 0 on a government map?  21 A  Well, the lake in photograph number 1 is Slamgeesh  22 Lake.  And this site, the view from the helicopter  23 that I'm taking of Slamgeesh Lake is almost directly  24 over the point where we're standing, or we are where  25 David Walter and Nancy are standing in photograph 2  26 and Walter and Nancy in photograph 1.  27 MR. GOLDIE:  1 or 3?  28 THE WITNESS:  Pardon me.  Three, photograph three.  2 9    MR. RUSH:  30 Q   Thank you.  17, Mr. Sterritt.  31 A   Yes.  32 Q   Photograph number 1 and 2, where are these located?  I  33 guess -- are they located in reference to the place  34 that you've identified on page 16 in photographs 2 and  35 3?  36 A   Yes.  37 Q   Where is the cabin that's located in photograph number  38 1?  39 A   That's a grave house.  40 MR. GOLDIE:  Well —  41 MR. RUSH:  42 Q   Where is that located, please?  43 A   That's located almost between -- well, it's located  44 southeast of Slamgeesh Lake.  45 Q   Mr. Sterritt, there is a note made by you below the  46 second photograph on page 17.  It says  47 "Walter-David-Nancy at Galaanhl Giist graveyard.  Xsi 7529  N. Sterritt (for plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Rush  1  2  A  3  MR. RUSH  4  MR. GOLD  5  6  7  MR. RUSH  8  Q  9  10  A  11  12  Q  13  14  15  A  16  17  18  Q  19  A  20  Q  21  22  A  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  Q  30  31  A  32  33  34  35  36  Q  37  A  38  Q  39  A  40  Q  41  42  A  43  44  Q  45  A  46  Q  47  A  Galaanhl Giist", and then there's a diagram there.  Yes.  What does that depict?  EI:  Well, unless it's of a geographic assistance to  your lordship, I don't think the witness is qualified  to speak about what it is or what its function is.  Mr. Sterritt, at this point what did you see when you  were there?  There were three grave houses, and they're what you  see in the picture.  And in that little sketch that's below photograph  number 2, there's a name, Xsi Lax uu, X-s-i-new  word-L-a-x-new word-u-u.  What's that?  That's Shilahu Creek on the map.  And it -- it comes  down into the Galaanhl Giist right near where these  grave houses are.  That's -- Galaanhl Giist, is that a creek or a river?  It's -- it's Slamgeesh River on the map.  Okay.  Number 18, please, number 3.  What's the view  of number 3?  That's the Skeena River cutting through across the  bottom of the picture.  And then the -- in the  left-hand quadrant of the picture you can see a bit of  a flood plain there of a creek coming out.  That is on  the map as Kitlangas Creek, K-i-t-1-a-n-g-a-s, and  that is Xsi Gisa Genx,  X-s-i-space-G-i-s-a-space-G-e-n-x.  And where's Kitlangas Creek in relation to the  previous photograph indicated as Slamgeesh Lake?  Well, in -- in photograph number 2, Slamgeesh River  comes out into the Skeena there, and you only go up  the Skeena on the left bank that you see there on the  left-hand side, I think no more than two miles, and  that's where Kitlangas Creek comes out.  And in whose territory is that located?  Gwinin Nitxw.  It's described by Walter Blackwater.  Page 19, photograph 3?  Photograph 3?  Yes.  When you say "described by Walter Blackwater",  you mean to say what source or by what means?  In his affidavit the territory of Gwinin Nitxw is  described.  All right.  Page 19.  Yes.  Photo 3?  Yes. 7530  N. Sterritt (for plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Rush  1  Q  2  A  3  4  5  6  7  Q  8  A  9  Q  10  A  11  12  13  14  Q  15  A  16  Q  17  18  A  19  20  21  Q  22  23  24  A  25  26  27  28  29  MR. GOLD  30  the witn:  31  32  33  MR. RUSH  34  Q  35  36  A  37  38  Q  39  A  40  41  Q  42  43  A  44  Q  45  46  47  A  What does that show?  About five or six miles up -- east up the Skeena past  Kitlangas Creek is a lake, Taam Agyoohl Tselasgwit.  That's T-a-a-m space A-g-y-o-o-h-1 space  T-s-e-1-a-s-g-w-i-t.  And that's the name of the lake  that's in the centre, lower centre of the picture.  Does it carry a name on the government map?  No, it doesn't.  It's not far from Kitlangas.  Page 20, photos 1 and 2, what do these show?  Here we've turned around and gone back towards  Slamgeesh River.  Just a minute.  Yes.  That's --  that's part of a creek called Xsi Mootixswit,  X-s-i-m-o-o-t-i-x-s-w-i-t.  Is that the creek that's shown in photo 1 on 20?  Yes.  And on 2 is that -- is that a similar view of the same  creek or some other creek?  That's another creek.  That one is Xsi Wilp Han.  That's X-s-i-space-W-i-1-p-space-H-a-n.  And it's  unnamed on maps.  The index refers to the photograph viewing of -- it  has a view to the north to Notchtop Peak, which is not  visible?  Yes.  That would be -- well, Na'ahl Taada,  N-a-apostrophe-a-h-1-space-T-a-a-d-a, that's part of  the range, the mountains that are at the back of that  as you look on up, but you can't see Notchtop Peak.  It's at the far end of that.  EI:  Far end which way?  3S:  Continuing looking north out of the picture, and  that would be looking directly into the picture.  That  would be the north direction.  21, number 1, there's a description for a creek, I  think, that you just referred to, Xsi Mootixswit?  Yes.  It's the same one from a different angle.  We're  farther up.  And the view is in what direction?  I think we're looking more northwest here.  I have to  look at the index.  Yes.  That's the northwest view.  And is there a name on a government map for Xsi  Mootixswit?  No, there isn't.  22. 1, 2 and 3 are details that could not be  identified.  Where is the -- what view do we see when  we look at photo 1?  The -- we're looking south here. 7531  N. Sterritt (for plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Rush  1 Q   Yes.  2 A  And that is the valley between Slamgeesh Lake, which  3 is out of the picture to the left, and Blackwater  4 Lake, which is out of the picture to the right.  And  5 I've identified the lake in the centre of the picture  6 there.  7 Q   And what lake was that?  8 A   Dam Similoo.  That's D-a-m-space-S-i-m-i-1-o-o.  9 Q   Is that the same Dam Similoo that was referred to by  10 you in your earlier evidence?  11 A   No, it isn't.  12 MR. GOLDIE:  But it isn't Slamgeesh Lake?  13 THE WITNESS:  No, it isn't.  14 MR. RUSH:  15 Q   Is there a name for this lake on the map?  16 A   No, there isn't.  What I pointed out was that  17 Slamgeesh Lake is out of the picture to the left and  18 Blackwater lake is out of the picture to the right.  19 Q   And in whose territory is this located?  20 A   The territory of Wii Minosik.  21 Q   Okay.  And are you aware of whose affidavit that  22 territory is described?  23 A  Walter Blackwater.  24 Q   In —  25 A   I think if you go back to page 21, the second  26 picture --  27 Q   Yes.  28 A   -- Slamgeesh Lake is in the middle of the picture.  2 9 And the boundary between Wii Minosik and Gwinin Nitxw  30 comes off Andamahl, which is the mountain to the --  31 above Slamgeesh Lake and slightly to the left.  32 Q   And named on the photocopy?  33 A   Yes.  All of that is Andamahl, but the area where the  34 boundary comes, comes down there and then across and  35 up on the -- just north of the Slamgeesh Lake there --  36 pardon me -- just to the right of Slamgeesh Lake,  37 above the drainage, and I think that the creek on the  38 photograph number 1 on page 22, I believe that one  39 flows down into Slamgeesh Lake, and the boundary comes  40 across there.  I'd have to have a better indication  41 here about Dam Similoo, but the boundary of Gwinin  42 Nitxw and Wii Minosik is right in that area.  43 Q   Miinhl An Gii, which is referred to in the photocopy  44 of photographs 2 and 3, is there a name for that on  45 the government map?  46 A   No, there's not.  Oh, just a minute.  No, there isn't.  47 Q   Okay.  And what is Miinhl An Gii? 7532  N. Sterritt (for plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Rush  1 A   It refers to -- page 22.  Miinhl An Gii is an area  2 where the people go to gather eggs from up in the  3 mountains.  That's M-i-i-n-h-1-space-A-n-space-G-i-i.  4 And the people from Blackwater and Slamgeesh would go  5 there to gather them, and that's what they call that  6 area.  7 Q   Is it the whole area that's shown in 2 and 3?  8 A   It's a mountain area within there.  9 Q   Page 26, this indicates in the -- in the photocopy  10 that this is a view to the north on Sas Mihla?  11 A   Yes.  12 Q   And what is that?  13 A   Sas Mihla, S-a-s-space-M-i-h-1-a, is a mountain.  14 Q   In whose territory?  15 A   The territory of Wii Minosik.  16 Q   And is there a name on the government map for that?  17 A   Sas Mihla is part of Slowmaldo Mountain on the map,  18 S-1-o-w-m-a-l-d-o.  19 Q   Which part?  20 A   It's the southern part.  21 Q   Both 1 and 2 are the same --  22 A   Yes.  23 Q   -- location?  24 A   Yes.  25 Q   Looking in pretty much the same direction?  26 A  More or less.  I'm farther down the slope.  I walked  27 down the slope towards David Blackwater, Niist, who is  28 standing there.  29 Q   28, please.  30 A   Yes.  31 Q   Is this -- are these photographs taken from the same  32 station point?  33 A   Yes, they are.  34 Q   And in what direction are we facing as we face the  35 photograph 1?  36 A   That photograph would be, I think, almost directly  37 west.  38 Q   Yes.  And Xsi Txem Sem, or the Nass River, you've got  39 it identified as being off to the left at the  40 background; is that right?  41 A   It would be located directly over the next ridge in  42 the mountain.  In the photograph there's a ridge or a  43 mountain area in the foreground that's brownish, and  44 then the next one is blue or dark blue.  Just over on  45 the other side would be the valley of -- that is the  46 valley of the Nass River.  The immediate valley in  47 front is the valley of Xsi Luu Am Maldid, 7533  N. Sterritt (for plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Rush  1 X-s-i-space-L-u-u-space-A-m-space-M-a-1-d-i-d, and  2 that's where Slowmaldo comes from.  That's the way  3 they -- that's how they wrote Slowmaldo.  4 Q   Slowmaldo is --  5 A   On the map.  6 Q   Is that the same as Xsi Luu Am Maldid?  7 A   Yes.  8 Q   Is that a creek?  9 A   Yes, it is.  10 Q   I take it that in 2 we're looking in the same  11 direction, are we?  12 A   Yes.  But we're looking a little bit north.  And the  13 mountain in the foreground just beyond the mountain  14 we're on is called Loop Guu Hanak,  15 L-o-o-p-space-G-u-u-space-H-a-n-a-k.  And the top of  16 that mountain forms the boundary between Wii Minosik  17 on the east side of that mountain, or the side towards  18 us, and Niist on the other side.  19 Q   And you've got Seventh cabin down behind the mountains  20 in the background?  21 A  Well, it would be immediately over Loop Guu Hanak,  22 L-o-o-p-space-G-u-u-space-H-a-n-a-k, and there's a  23 creek valley comes out there.  That's where Seventh  24 Cabin is.  25 Q   Okay.  Page 31, please.  26 A   Yes.  27 Q   In what direction are we facing as we face the views  28 in 1, 2 and 3?  Start with 1.  29 A  Well, photograph number 1 is a view to the east up  30 Xsan Six Moohl Creek.  31 Q   Is there an English name for that on the government  32 map?  33 A   Yes.  It's S-a-n-s-i-x —  34 Q   S-a-n-s-i-x?  35 A   -- m-o-r.  That's all one word.  36 Q   Yes?  37 A   Sansixmor Creek.  And that's all in the territory of  38 Wii Minosik described by Walter Blackwater.  39 Q   Is that -- is the view in 2 of the same direction?  40 A   It's more to the south.  I'm panning to the south  41 there.  42 Q   And number 3?  43 A   That's a view north.  And the name of that mountain  44 behind, or the area behind is Guu Hilin,  45 G-u-u-space-H-i-1-i-n.  46 Q   Is that identified on a government map?  47 A   That's also part of Slowmaldo Mountain, which is that 7534  N. Sterritt (for plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Rush  1 area.  All of the area that we're in there is  2 generally known as Slowmaldo Mountain.  3 Q   Please refer to page 34.  4 A   34?  5 Q   34, yes.  6 A   Yes.  7 Q   Photograph number 1, what are we looking at?  8 A   In this location we've now moved up north of Groundhog  9 Mountain.  And photograph number 1, Walter Blackwater  10 is looking south towards Groundhog Mountain.  And  11 Groundhog Mountain is the area entering the left --  12 from the right-hand side of the picture coming in  13 across -- across the picture towards the left.  14 Q   Is it known as Groundhog Mountain on the map?  15 A   Yes.  16 Q   What's the station point that you're standing on?  17 A  We're on a -- I can't remember.  We're on a mountain  18 north of -- northeast of Panorama Lake, and it's  19 Devil's Claw Mountain.  There's a -- a series of --  20 well, actually there's a huge hip bone down by the  21 Skeena River, which is to the left of Walter  22 Blackwater here, and then there are also tracks that  23 run along the top of the mountains, huge dinosaur  24 tracks, and they go all the way over for 30 or 40  25 miles to the west of here.  It's called Wii Maxhla Dox  26 Hla Genx Wii Gwiik.  That's  2 7 W-i-1-space-M-a-x-h-l-a-space-D-o-x-space-H-l-a-space-  28 W-i-i-space-G-w -- pardon me -- G-e-n-x.  And that  29 refers to the giant trail or giant tracks of the  30 groundhog.  They appear to be -- I haven't seen them,  31 but they appear to be dinosaur tracks.  And they run  32 all along the mountains there.  And there's a mountain  33 farther to the west of Walter Blackwater here.  34 Kliiyem lax haa's territory is called -- it goes by  35 that name as well.  36 Q   In photo 2, is this photo taken at the place where Mr.  37 Walter Blackwater Senior is standing?  38 A   Yes.  39 Q   It's showing a flower that is identified as a flower  40 of the groundhog?  41 A   Yes.  Earlier Walter had described a mountain just  42 west of Kitlangas Creek, but earlier in the day when  43 we were on this trip -- and that was -- it was called  44 An Maiyhl Gwiik, and the reason for it was this  45 flower, and he pointed that out when we got to this  46 mountain.  He saw the flower here.  That literally  47 means the berry of the groundhog, the flower berry of 7535  N. Sterritt (for plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Rush  1  2  Q  3  4  A  5  6  7  8  9  Q  10  11  A  12  13  Q  14  15  A  16  17  MR.  RUSH:  18  THE  COURT  19  20  MR.  RUSH:  21  THE  COURT  22  23  MR.  RUSH:  24  Q  25  26  27  A  28  Q  29  A  30  31  32  33  34  Q  35  A  36  Q  37  38  39  40  41  42  A  43  44  45  46  47  Q  the groundhog.  That's A-n-new word-M-a-i-y-h-1-new word-G-w-i-i-k.  In 3, photo 3 on 34, what direction are you facing?  We're looking more -- slightly southwest, and the area  where the light is on the camera in the centre is in  the area of the boundary between Geel, on this side,  on the left-hand side of the picture, and Kliiyem lax  haa on the right-hand side.  Is this place close to or at an identifiable named  feature on the government map?  Yes.  That light spot in the middle of the picture is  quite close to Panorama Lake.  And that boundary point that you've described, in  whose affidavit is reference made to it?  Walter Blackwater.  And the location that we're at is  in the area of -- we're within Geel's territory there.  All right.  :  How long are you going to be to finish this book,  Mr. Rush?  Not very long.  I've got -- looks like six pages.  :  Shall we finish?  Madam Reporter, are you all right?  All right.  Thank you.  Page 43, Mr. Sterritt, photographs 2 and 3.  Are you  able to tell us what geographic point we're viewing  when we look into this photograph?  This is page 43.  Yes.  In photo 2.  In photo 2 there's a creek coming down into the centre  of the picture.  First of all, the main valley that  goes from the left to right is the Nass River Valley.  And the creek that comes in there is Sallysout Creek,  S-a-1-l-y-s-o-u-t.  And that's how it's identified on a government map?  Yes.  And here it is on the photocopy of 2.  It's indicated  as Xsi Galliisxawit, X-s-i-g-a-1-l-i-i-s-x-a-w-i-t.  And in number 3 it's indicated in the photocopy as a  view to the east.  Is there an identifiable feature on  a government map that you know that would help locate  this on such a map?  On the map the mountain on the left side of the creek  that drains into the Nass River there, that is what  would appear on the map very likely as Blackwater Peak  or Blackwater Mountain.  There's no name on a map for  the creek.  That is identified there.  That's Xsi Lax uu Andoo? 7536  N. Sterritt (for plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Rush  1 A   Xsi Lax uu Andoo,  2 X-s-i-space-L-a-x-space-u-u-space-A-n-d-o-o.  3 Q   All right.  44.  4 A   Yes.  5 Q   And views to the east, are there identifiable names on  6 a government map for what we see here?  7 A   In number 1?  8 Q   First with number 1.  9 A   This is the -- the creek that is -- that flows out of  10 the picture in the right-hand quadrant.  It flows  11 right -- you can see the bottom of the bubble of the  12 helicopter in the corner of the -- of the photograph.  13 That creek is Vile Creek, V-i-l-e, on the map.  And  14 Canyon Lake is farther up.  And this is the way we  15 flew on our overflight when we came right into the  16 picture and down and out on the overflight last --  17 three weeks ago.  And these are all -- all these  18 photographs are of the same valley, the Vile Creek  19 Valley.  20 Q   Is Vile Creek the creek that's named in the photocopy  21 of photo 3, Xsi Luu Lak Leexs, X-s-i-new  22 word-L-u-u-new word-L-a-k-new word-L-e-e-x-s?  23 A  Vile Creek there is the -- on the lower right-hand  24 corner again.  It's -- there's no name for the creek  2 5              that you named.  2 6 Q   All right.  27 A  And that is the territory of Niist, described by  28 Walter Blackwater in his affidavit.  29 Q   Would you turn to page 55?  Photo 3 on 55 cannot be  30 identified, Mr. Sterritt.  Is there a reference point  31 on a map that would assist in determining the place of  32 Xsan Eekw?  That's X-s-a-n-new word-e-e-k-w?  33 A   Here we're located at -- on the east side of the  34 Skeena just below the mouth of Kuldo Creek and Xsan  35 Eekw is also known as Xsan Hak, X-s-a-n-space-e-e-k-w.  36 Xsan Hak is X-s-a-n-h-a-k.  And that is Larkworthy  37 Creek on the map, L-a-r-k-w-o-r-t-h-y.  38 Q   Thank you.  56.  39 A   Yes.  40 Q   Is this in the same place?  41 A   Yes, it is.  42 Q   Which -- we're facing what direction in 1?  43 A   You're looking east.  44 Q   And are you able to identify by a map named the  45 feature at the back mountain?  46 A   There is no map name for that.  That's Ansin Nisgoo,  47 A-n-s-i-n-space-N-i-s-g-o-o, and that is a mountain 7537  N. Sterritt (for plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Rush  1 area just south of Larkworthy Creek and east of the  2 Skeena River.  3 Q   All right.  We looking in the same direction in photo  4 2.  It seems that you move slightly to the right.  5 A   Here I'm panning to the -- to the south, yes.  6 Q   And is there a map reference that you can give us with  7 regard to photo 3?  8 A  Well, once again, we're just south of the confluence  9 of Kuldo Creek and the Skeena River, and we're on the  10 east bank of the Skeena River here.  11 Q   Okay.  All right.  Thank you.  Now, I'll just move to  12 64, photos 1, 2 and 3.  Photos -- photo 1, the  13 photocopy indicates Gowal Mihl, G-o-w-a-l-new  14 word-M-i-h-1.  And it has in parenthesis Old Kuldo.  15 Is that what -- is that the location of Old Kuldo?  16 A   Yes, it is.  17 Q   You see a similar view in 2 and 3?  18 A   Yes.  That's west of Old Kuldo, about a mile and a  19 half, and looking down Xsi Gisga Banas, which is  20 X-s-i-space-G-i-s-g-a-space-B-a-n-a-s, and that's a --  21 where a creek was diverted to go along the edge of the  22 village.  It's a canal.  23 MR. RUSH:  Photos 1 and 2.  I think, photo 1 has already been  24 spoken to by Mr. Muldoe.  Photo 2, what's that seen in  25 photo 2 on -- excuse me.  We're on to 66.  Mr. Muldoe  26 has addressed both photographs in 1 and 2.  I have no  27 further questions on that, my lord.  2 8 THE COURT:  All right.  Thank you.  All right.  Well, then —  29 MR. GOLDIE:  My lord, I sent a note to my friends that at the  30 conclusion of Mr. Sterritt's evidence, we wish to  31 address the band council resolution minutes issue.  It  32 will not take long, but I suggest we do that Monday  33 morning.  34 THE COURT:  Yes.  All right.  Will we be doing anything else  35 except that before the video?  36 MR. RUSH:  I can't say no to that question.  There may be some  37 other issues that we want to raise.  38 THE COURT:  Miss Koenigsberg?  39 MS. KOENIGSBERG:  I think that there is an outstanding motion on  40 production of documents relating to expert witnesses,  41 and we have received some material in the last few  42 days and we will be reviewing that, so I'm not certain  43 that that disposes of our motion, but it may.  44 THE COURT:  You may speak to that on Monday as well.  45 MS. KOENIGSBERG:  The other matter I would like to raise, if our  46 friends could give some indication of which witnesses  47 we would be viewing.  It's difficult without any 753?  N. Sterritt (for plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Rush  1 notice to review them and be able to select  2 appropriate parts for cross-examination.  3 THE COURT:  Mr. Grant?  4 MR. GRANT:  Yes, my lord.  On both points Ms. Koenigsberg  5 raised, I raised the other day, and I would ask my  6 friends again that the last correspondence on this,  7 aside from productions that we have made, is for them  8 to crystallize a little more clearly what it is  9 they're seeking.  I think a discussion between counsel  10 on this matter may at least narrow down what the  11 issues are.  12 MR. GOLDIE:  You're talking to me?  13 MR. GRANT:  I'm talking to Ms. Koenigsberg.  A discussion may  14 help with regard to Mr. Goldie as well, but it's not  15 necessary on this matter, as I don't think -- it's not  16 his demand.  And I would suggest that before that  17 matter be brought on on Monday, that is, it may be  18 dealt with sometime next week if there is a problem.  19 I strongly encourage that, because I, quite frankly,  2 0 have been endeavouring to deal with the demand, and  21 it's not exactly clear what -- what the federal  22 defendants are saying is left outstanding, because my  23 review suggests that there's very little, if anything,  24 left outstanding.  I may be wrong on that.  25 THE COURT:  Well, is there any -- certainly you have room to  26 speak with Ms. Koenigsberg, subject to her permission.  27 I suspect, however, if we're going to be watching  28 video, that everyone won't be here, so it's a question  29 of court, early attendance.  We're already going to  30 speak to this other matter.  I'll have to leave it to  31 counsel to decide when it could be done.  Ms.  32 Koenigsberg can certainly bring it up Monday morning.  33 Will you be here, Mr. Grant?  34 MR. GRANT:  Well, in light of what's happened this afternoon, I  35 have to speak to Mr. Rush about it.  I had intended to  36 speak to that matter.  I had intended not to be here  37 Monday morning.  38 MS. KOENIGSBERG:  I'm quite happy to accommodate my friend and  39 we can make it Tuesday or Wednesday at his convenience  40 if we're unable to agree.  41 THE COURT:  All right.  42 MR. GRANT:  The other point is, regarding the order, we had a  43 proposal this morning, but we really spent time  44 thinking about what you had raised from then on, and  45 we'll have to correspond with our friends as quickly  46 as possible about the order.  47 THE COURT:  They have to know what you're going to start with, 7539  N. Sterritt (for plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Rush  1 do they not?  2 MR. GRANT:  Yes.  And I think we can communicate with them.  3 First witness we will have will be Richard Benson.  4 THE COURT:  All right.  And is it intended that we will see just  5 portions of a number of witnesses?  6 MR. GRANT:  Yes.  I think that what happened with the  7 experimental week, if I may call it that, is that that  8 works much more effectively, for your lordship to see  9 portions.  I also can advise my friends that it is our  10 intent at this stage that we would complete the  11 Gitksan commission witnesses and then go to the  12 Wet'suwet'en, so that it wouldn't be interspersed.  So  13 that after Richard Benson would be -- I'll have to  14 check the list.  15 THE COURT:  Do counsel have an estimate of how many hours of  16 viewing we're looking at?  17 MR. GRANT:  That's one of the things that we — we have to  18 consider.  We certainly can advise the Court Monday,  19 but we think that by taking excerpts, it'll probably  20 shorten it down.  21 THE COURT:  Well, it's a matter of setting Court hours, amongst  22 other things.  I don't think I can start early Monday  23 morning, but we can start earlier on other days.  Do  24 counsel have some indication of how many hours we're  25 looking at?  We'll make some decisions about court  26 hours.  All right.  I wish you all a very pleasant  27 weekend then.  Thank you.  Ten o'clock Monday morning.  28 THE REGISTRAR:  Order in court.  Court will adjourn.  29  30 (PROCEEDINGS ADJOURNED UNTIL JULY 4, 1988 AT 10:00 A.M.)  31  32 I hereby certify the foregoing to be  33 a true and accurate transcript of the  34 proceedings transcribed to the best  35 of my skill and ability.  36  37  38  39 Kathie Tanaka, Official Reporter  4 0 UNITED REPORTING SERVICE LTD.  41  42  43  44  45  46  47 7540  N. Sterritt  In chief by  (for plaintiffs)  Mr. Rush  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47

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