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Delgamuukw Trial Transcripts

[Proceedings of the Supreme Court of British Columbia 1988-06-20] British Columbia. Supreme Court Jun 20, 1988

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 6989  1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  Vancouver, B. C.  June 20, 1988.  THE REGISTRAR:  Delgamuukw versus Her Majesty the Queen, at bar.  THE COURT:  Mr. Rush?  MR. RUSH:  Yes, my lord, I should advise you that regarding the  Stanley Williams video tapes, I have handed some  further video tapes of that commission evidence up to  madam registrar and she now has them.  I believe there  is a full set.  THE REGISTRAR:  Yes, I have the full set.  MR. RUSH:  And the copies of the other commission evidence that  you viewed last week are -- were -- we have been in  touch with the camera person and we would get the  originals.  I think it may be today or tomorrow.  THE COURT:  All right.  Thank you.  MR. PLANT:   I should make a note that the balance of the tapes  of the Stanley Williams commission will be marked as  exhibits today?  MR. RUSH:  Yes, I understand it's going to be done through the  registry.  THE COURT:  Yes.  Thank you.  MR. RUSH:  Now, we have had prepared an additional list of  Gitksan names, which I understand was just handed up  to you and I am going to call the next witness for the  plaintiffs, Mr. Neil Sterritt.  NEIL STERRITT, a witness called on  behalf of the plaintiffs, after first  being duly sworn, testified as  follows:  THE WITNESS:  My name is Neil Sterritt, S-T-E-R-R-I-T-T.  EXAMINATION IN CHIEF BY MR. RUSH:  MR. RUSH:  Q Mr. Sterritt, do you hold a Gitksan name?  A Yes, I do.  Q What is that?  A Mediig'm Gyamk.  Q Is that a chief's name?  A Yes, it is.  MR. RUSH:  And Madiig'm Gyamk, my lord, is M-A-D-I-I-G-'M,  G-Y-A-M-K.  Q And what's the house?  A It's the House of Gitludahl. 6990  1  Q  2  A  3  Q  4  A  5  Q  6  A  7  Q  8  9  A  10  Q  11  12  A  13  14  15  16  17  Q  18  A  19  Q  20  A  21  Q  22  A  23  Q  24  A  2 5 MR.  RUSH  26  27  Q  28  A  29  Q  30  31  A  32  Q  33  34  A  35  36  37  Q  38  39  A  40  Q  41  A  42  Q  43  A  44  Q  45  A  46  47  N. J. Sterritt (For Plaintiffs)  In Chief by Mr. Rush  And the clan?  Gisgaast or Fireweed.  Were you born into the house of Gitludahl?  No, I was not.  Were you adopted into the house?  Yes, I was.  And do you remember the year that you were adopted  into the house of Gitludahl?  Yes, it was 1975.  And can you recall the circumstances around that  adoption?  My aunt's husband, Gitludahl, Moses Morrison, had  indicated that he wanted to adopt me into the house,  he sent a message to my house that he was holding a  feast and that I should attend that feast and that he  would give me a name at that feast.  And adopt me.  Did that feast happen?  Yes, it did.  I said 1975, it was 1974.  '74?  Yes.  And you received a name at that feast?  Yes, I did.  What was that name?  Gotsim Gapiayk.  Your lordship has heard that before but I will spell  it, it's, G-O-T-S-I-M, new word, G-I-P-A-I-Y-K.  And does that mean "in slow motion"?  Yes, it does.  At the feast where you got the name of got Gotsim  Gapiayk, did you pay for that name?  Yes, I did.  And were there witnesses at that feast where you  received the name?  Yes, there were.  And they were the people that  received the money that I paid in return for  witnessing and calling out my name, calling it back.  Now, how long did you hold that name before you took  the name of Mediig'm Gyamk?  For 11 years.  And did you take the name of Mediig'm Gyamk in 1985?  Yes, I did.  At a feast?  Yes.  And what feast was that?  My uncle, Moses Morrison, the former Gitludahl, had  passed away, and on December 21st the funeral feast  was held and at that feast I received the name of 6991  1  ]  2  Q  3  4  A  5 MR.  RUSH:  6  7  8  9  10  11 MR.  GOLDIE  12 THE  COURT:  13  14  A  15 MR.  RUSH:  16  Q  17  18  19  20  1  21  A  22  Q  23  24  25  26  A  27  Q  28  29  A  30  Q  31  i  32  A  33  34  35  36  37  ]  38  39  40  41  42  Q  43  44  A  45  46  47  Q  J. Sterritt (For Plaintiffs)  In Chief by Mr. Rush  Mediig'm Gyamk.  And did you make a contribution at that feast for the  receipt of the name?  Yes, I did.  I have asked madam registrar, my lord, to obtain the  black volume copy of the document book for Gitludahl,  Pete Muldoe.  I would like to have that document book  placed before the witness.  And I am going to first  refer him to the Gitludahl feast book, which is  exhibit 471.  :  May I see that, please?  Mr. Sterritt, did you say September 21st or December  21st?  December.  Just showing you Exhibit 471, which is marked in these  proceedings as Gitludahl Feast Book, December 21,  1985.  And if you turn to the fourth page in sequence,  I note under there names given, number two, Mediig'm  Gyamk, Neil J. Sterritt, does that refer to you?  Yes, it does.  And I would like to refer you to the third page from  the cover page and I would ask you if you would look  under the heading family, and if you can identify your  name there?  Yes, I can.  And there is the name of Neil John Sterritt, does that  refer to you?  Yes, it's about six lines down.  And under goods it shows, seven, the figure 727, what  does that represent?  That represents the food that I contributed to the  feast in the form of soup, cases of bread, cases of  apples and oranges and it also represents gifts that I  gave to people who had done things for me in the past.  I might have -- I might be in a situation where I  might have been stuck in the bush with my truck and  someone came out and pulled me out or did some kind  thing for me, as much as two or three years before and  I would repay them.  So I had gifts for each of them.  People who had helped me out.  All right. In the next column can you make out what's  said there, including something --?  "Including bear head dress."  It's the Amhalayt that I  own.  It's my ceremonial, part of my ceremonial  regalia and that's that item there.  All right.  And then the cash column it indicates two 6992  1  2  3  4  A  5  Q  6  7  A  8  Q  9  10  11  12  13  A  14  Q  15  16  A  17  18  Q  19  20  21  A  22  Q  23  A  24  Q  25  A  26  Q  27  A  28  29  Q  30  31  A  32  Q  33  34  35  36  37  38  A  39  40  41  Q  42  A  43  44  45  46  47  Q  N. J. Sterritt (For Plaintiffs)  In Chief by Mr. Rush  figures it appears to be, is it 2,220 and 2100, do you  recall what you contributed in cash if that's what it  means?  It was $2,200 for a total of $2,927.  And that represented your contributions at that feast;  is that right?  Yes, it did.  Just going to keep that book in front of you, and I  want to refer you to another tab in that book.  And the name that Moses Morrison held of Gitludahl,  was that passed on to another hereditary chief during  that feast?  Yes, it was.  And was it to Gitludahl, Pete Muldoe, to whom it was  passed?  Yes, it was passed on to Pete Muldoe, who is now  Gitludahl.  Now, you have said that you were not born into a  Gitksan house.  I take it from that that your mother  was not Gitksan; is that correct?  That's correct.  Can you tell me what your mother's name was?  Her name was Elma Jean Sterritt.  And her maiden name, if you know it?  It was, her surname was Russell.  And do you know her native origin?  Her parents were of English origin, her mother and her  father.  And to your knowledge, was your mother ever adopted  into a Gitksan house?  Not to my knowledge.  Okay.  I now want to refer you to the genealogy chart  of Gitludahl, which is found in the same document book  of Gitludahl and it is Exhibit 474.  Just showing you  now the genealogy chart.  Would you peruse that for a  moment, please?  Now on this genealogy chart, Mr.  Sterritt, can you say what the dotted line represents?  The dotted line represents an adoption line.  This is  about a third of the way up the page and extends  throughout the genealogy.  Okay.  And does your name appear on this genealogy?  Yes, it does.  It appears on the -- it's numbered one  but it's on the second page of the genealogy and it's  the second name in from the right-hand side of the  page.  Neil John Sterritt.   It's under the adoption  line.  To your knowledge, were the persons whose names are 6993  1  2  3 MR.  GOLDI  4  5 MR.  RUSH:  6  7 THE  COURT  8 MR.  RUSH:  9  Q  10  11  12  A  13  14  15  Q  16  17  A  18  Q  19  20  A  21  22  23  Q  24  A  25  26  27  28  Q  29  30  31  A  32  Q  33  34  35  36  A  37  38  39  40  41  Q  42  43  44  A  45  Q  46  A  47  Q  N. J. Sterritt (For Plaintiffs)  In Chief by Mr. Rush  indicated on this genealogy adopted by, adopted into  the house of Gitludahl?  £:  I don't think the witness can give evidence on  that, my lord.  I don't see why he can't, if he was present during  the time of the adoptions.  :  If he was present, I would think he could.  You indicated yourself, Mr. Sterritt, that you were  adopted in 1974.  Were there others who were adopted  with you at that time?  The -- there have been others since and others before  that but to my knowledge, I was the only one adopted  in 1974.  All right.  Since 1974, were you present when others  were adopted into the house?  Yes, I was.  Can you just indicate who those other people were on  the adoption line?  Fern Waiget, Brian Muldoe, through their mother, my  sister, Shirley Sterritt, Terry Muldoe and Charlie  Muldoe.  They were given names since then.  All right.  And these --  There is another one, Mr. Grant, Dora Olson, it's on  the first page under Alvin Waiget and through her, her  children, Sonny Olson, and I believe there is -- well,  that's all at that point.  I ask you to turn to the second page, that's the third  page in line, there is a Shirley Sterritt indicated  there; is that Shirley Sterritt related to you?  Yes, she is.  She is my sister.  And to your knowledge, what was the reason for the --  your adoption and the adoptions that were made by  Gitludahl, Moses Morrison, after you became an adopted  member of of the house?  Gitludahl, Moses Morrison, was considered to be the  last of the direct Gitludahl line and he was adopting  men and women to continue the Gitludahl house in the  Village of Kispiox.  And he adopted a number of women  and a number of men.  Now, I would like to just set that document book aside  for the moment and ask you about your father's side.  Is your father Gitksan?  Yes, he is.  What is his name?  His Gitksan name is Wii Gaak.  That's W-I-I, my lord, G-A-A-K. 6994  1  A  2  Q  3  A  4  Q  5  A  6  7  Q  8  9  A  10  Q  11  A  12  Q  13  A  14  Q  15  16 THE  TRAN  17 MR.  RUSH  18  Q  19  A  20  Q  21  A  22  Q  23  A  24  Q  25  26  A  27  28  29  Q  30  31  A  32  Q  33  34  A  35 MR.  GOLD  36  37  38  39  4 0 MR.  RUSH  41  Q  42  43  44  A  45  Q  46  47  A  N. J. Sterritt (For Plaintiffs)  In Chief by Mr. Rush  His English name is Neil Benjamin Sterritt.  And what village is the name of Wii Gaak from?  It's from Kisgagas.  Is that name a name in the Wolf Clan?  Yes, it is.  It's one of the leading hereditary chiefs  in the Village of Kisgagas.  Now, do you know when your father took the name of Wii  Gaak?  In 1982.  Was that in March of 1982?  Yes, it was.  And at whose funeral feast was this?  Ax moogasxw, Jack Wright.  Just pause there.  Maybe we can have a spelling for Ax  moogasxw.  LATOR:  A-X underlined, space, M-O-O-G-A-S-X-W.  And Ax moogasxw at that time was Jack Wright?  Yes, it was.  And where did this feast occur?  It occurred in Kispiox.  And who was the previous holder of the name Wii Gaak?  Kenny Campbell, Kenneth Campbell.  And when had that name previously been held by Kenneth  Campbell?  In 1973 Kenneth Campbell had died.  He had received  the name from Simon Wright, who was a former Wii Gaak,  and then Ken Campbell died in 1973.  And the name was then put on your father in March of  1982, at the Ax moogasxw feast; is that right?  Yes, it was.  And to your knowledge, was your father in line to take  the name of Wii Gaak?  Yes, he was.  At a very young age --  3:  Well, I wonder, my lord, if this is within the  witness's personal knowledge?  When he starts an  answer out with at a very young age, seems to me he is  going to be giving evidence that could only be given  by the individual himself.  Mr. Sterritt, did you receive some information from  your father about how it was that he took the name of  Wii Gaak?  Yes, I did.  And your knowledge comes from your father, Neil  Benjamin Sterritt, is that right?  Yes. 6995  N. J. Sterritt (For Plaintiffs)  In Chief by Mr. Rush  1 MR. GOLDIE:  And Mr. Sterritt is, of course, living.  2 MR. RUSH:  Yes.  I don't intend to pursue it.  3 Q   Your father's mother, what was your father's mother's  4 name?  5 A   Her name was Xsu wis.  6 THE TRANSLATOR:  That's 1584.  7 MR. RUSH:  That would be on the new list, my lord.  8 THE COURT:  Thank you.  9 MR. RUSH:  10 Q   And was -- what was your father's mother's English  11 name?  12 A   Kate Sterritt, she was born Kate Morrison.  13 Q   And she was in which house?  14 A   She was in the house of Wii Gaak.  15 THE COURT:  I am sorry, is that house of —  16 MR. RUSH:  Wii Gaak.  17 Q   The same as your father?  18 A   Yes.  19 THE COURT:  Thank you.  2 0 MR. RUSH:  21 Q   Now, your father's grandmother, on your mother's  22 side -- I am sorry, his mother's side?  23 A  My father's grandmother was Galuu'u.  24 THE TRANSLATOR:  That's 1637.  25 MR. RUSH:  Thank you.  26 A   That was Jessie Morrison.  2 7 MR. RUSH:  28 Q   And what was her house?  29 A   She was from the house of Wii Gaak, the same as my  30 grandmother and my father.  31 MR. RUSH:  My lord, I am going to pass up a document book.  32 Q   Now, Mr. Sterritt, I am going to refer you first to  33 document number one in the document book which I have  34 just handed up to his lordship.  And I am going to ask  35 you, if you will, please, turn to the genealogy of  36 Wilps Wii Gaak.  Firstly, on the face page, Mr.  37 Sterritt, Wii Gaak is spelled W-I-I, K'-A-A-X, is that  38 a different spelling of the Wii Gaak which we have  39 given his lordship this morning?  40 A   Yes, it is.  41 Q   It's the same Wii Gaak.  I would ask you first, if you  42 will, to turn to page 13.  And if you will, can you  43 identify on this genealogy the name of your father?  44 A   Yes, I can.  It's on the third line up from the bottom  45 and about the -- almost the middle of the page on that  46 line.  It's Neil Sterritt, Wii Gaak, born 1913.  47 Q   And on the same line, there is a Walter Sterritt, and 6996  1  2  3  A  4  5  Q  6  A  7  8  Q  9  10  A  11  Q  12  13  A  14  15  Q  16  i  17  18  19  20  21  A  22  23  Q  24  25  A  26  Q  27  A  28  Q  29  A  30  31  32  Q  33  34  A  Y.  35  Q  3 6 MR.  GOLDIE  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  4 4 MR.  RUSH:  45  1  4 6 MR.  GOLDIE  47  N. J. Sterritt (For Plaintiffs)  In Chief by Mr. Rush  a Margaret Sterritt and an Agnes Sterritt, were they  related to your father?  Yes, they are his sisters and his brother.  Some of  them.  Not all of them.  Well, Agnes?  Agnes is a sister of my father, Walter is an older  brother and Margaret is a younger sister of my father.  It shows that Walter and Agnes have passed on, is that  accurate?  Yes.  I just want to go to the next page, page 14, it shows  a Jack Sterritt and an Art Sterritt?  Yes, they -- Jack is a brother and Art is a brother  who is still living.  Now, it shows that the relationship line runs to  Charlie Sterritt, Haaxw, and I would ask you if you  could just go back to page ten to where — page ten, I  think you have gone back too far, it's just two  pages -- and it shows a Kate Morrison; is that the  Kate Morrison you referred to?  Yes, and she is shown beside her first husband there,  and Haaxw, Charlie Sterritt, was her second husband.  All right.  Now, the mother of your father's mother  appears here to be Jessie Morrison, Galuu'u?  Galuu'u.  Is that correct, to your knowledge?  Yes.  And it shows --  There is actually Galuu'u and Laats, that should be  separated, L-A-A-T-S, that's two names there, not just  one.  This indicates that Galuu'u on one of her names and  Laats is another of her names?  es .  And Joe Morrison?  :  Excuse me, I am going to object to any further  questioning on this.  This document was seen by us the  first time this morning, despite the date on it.  It  appears to be one of those which Heather Harris  completed but in respect to which was not produced to  us.  I think we should be given an opportunity of  examining before the witness continues.  If my friend  could go on to some other subject.  Well, firstly my records indicated that I sent the  document to my learned friends on March 10th.  :  That's not in accordance with our recollection but  we would be glad to check it. 6997  N. J. Sterritt (For Plaintiffs)  In Chief by Mr. Rush  1 THE COURT:  Can you go on to something else?  2 MR. RUSH:  Well, my lord, Mr. Sterritt is not being called to  3 prove this document.  He can only speak to his own  4 line and I would only -- this document, I am going to  5 be asking that it be submitted for identification only  6 and actually I had just about completed my examination  7 on it.  8 THE COURT:  Go ahead.  9 MR. GOLDIE:  I am pleased to let my friend go ahead.  10 THE COURT:  All right.  11 MR. RUSH:  Thank you.  12 Q   In terms of the relationship of Jessie Morrison to  13 Luulak, Haaxw, is it your understanding that there is  14 a relationship between Jessie Morrison on page 13 and  15 lieu lacks, in the House of Haaxw?  16 A   Yes.  17 MR. RUSH:  My lord, as I indicated, I would ask, as I indicated,  18 I am not going to be asking this be marked as an  19 exhibit but I am going to be asking that it be given a  20 number for identification.  All right.  The next  21 exhibit number?  22 THE REGISTRAR:  It will be 591, my lord.  23  24 (EXHIBIT 591 FOR IDENTIFICATION: GENEALOGY OF WILPS  25 WII GAAK)  26  2 7 MR. RUSH:  28 Q   Your father's father, Mr. Sterritt, was that -- you  29 indicated was Charles Sterritt?  30 A   Yes.  From the House of Haaxw.  31 Q   And who was your father's father's mother?  32 A   Her name was Nox Tsimilax Madimtxw.  33 THE TRANSLATOR:  1582.  34 THE COURT:  That's your father's mother?  35 A  My father's father's mother.  36 THE COURT:  Father's father's mother.  Thank you.  37 MR. RUSH:  38 Q   What was her English name?  39 A   It was Lucy Simpson.  40 Q   And her house?  41 A   The House of Haaxw.  42 Q   And your father's father's name, that is, Charlie  43 Sterritt's name?  44 A  My father's father's name was Charles Sterritt, Haaxw,  45 my grandfather's father's name was Charles Sterritt.  46 Q   All right.  And was he a Gitksan person?  47 A   No, he was not. 699?  N. J. Sterritt (For Plaintiffs)  In Chief by Mr. Rush  1 Q   Now, you have made reference to your father's, that's  2 Neil Benjamin's Sterritt's grandfather as being Joe  3 Morrison, and what house was he from?  4 A   From the House of Mauus.  5 Q   And the village?  6 A   Kispiox.  7 Q   And what was --  8 THE COURT: Yes, I would like to have it.  9 THE TRANSLATOR:  1583.  10 MR. RUSH:  11 Q   And what was his name?  12 A   I believe it was Mauus.  13 Q   Now, you told us that you are a member of the House of  14 Gitludahl, where do you sit at feasts when you attend  15 feasts hosted by another clan?  16 A   I sit at the table of Wiigyet.  17 Q   And is that the same table as Waiget and Wii Seeks?  18 A   Yes, Wiigyet in this case, his English name is Lloyd  19 Morrison.  20 MR. RUSH:  That, my lord, is Wiigyet?  21 A  And that table is a Kisgagas Wiigyet as opposed to  22 Kitsegukla.  23 Q   And why is it that as a member of the House of  24 Gitludahl you sit at the table of Wiigyet?  25 A   It's the way that the tables are set up in Kispiox.  26 The leading Kisgagas or Fireweed Chief in Kispiox is  27 Geel and beside him sits, on his right, sits Gitludahl  28 and on his left sits Gwiiyeehl, Gwiiyeehl being Chris  29 Skulch, and then there are other leading chiefs from  30 those houses who sit there and the chair, the seat  31 that I would have occupied was occupied by Wii yagaa  32 deets, Eli Turner, who had been in Kispiox for a long  33 time.  So Moses Morrison, Gitludahl, asked me to sit  34 with the future Gitludahl, the prospective Gitludahl,  35 Pete Muldoe, and I sat at the table opposite Pete  36 Muldoe, who at that time was Wii Seeks, and one of the  37 reasons was that he wanted me to learn from Pete and  38 to be close to him.  39 Q   So you sat at Wiigyet's table because formerly Wii  40 Seeks had sat there.  Now, Pete Muldoe is now sitting  41 at the table of Geel; is that correct?  42 A   Yes, he is.  43 Q   But you continue to sit at the table of Wiigyet?  44 A   Yes, I do.  45 Q   Why is that?  46 A   Because Pete Muldoe, Gitludahl, has a close  47 relationship between both houses, between the House of 6999  N. J. Sterritt (For Plaintiffs)  In Chief by Mr. Rush  1 Gitludahl and the House of Wiigyet, he was born into  2 the house of Wiigyet, and he has asked me to continue  3 sitting there at this time.  4 Q   All right.  Gwiiyehl, my lord, I am sure you have been  5 referred to a number of times is number 19 on the  6 plaintiff's list and I believe you made reference to  7 the name of Eli Turner, Mr. Sterritt, and I will just  8 ask Miss Howard to spell that for us.  9 THE TRANSLATOR:  W-I-I, Y-A-G, underlined A-A, space, D-E-E-T-S.  10 MR. RUSH:  11 Q   Your name, Mediig'm Gyamk, the name you hold today,  12 what meaning does that have in English?  13 A   The grizzly of the sun.  14 Q   Does that come from an adaawk?  15 A   Yes, it does, and Pete Muldoe referred to that adaawk,  16 Gitludahl, when he was on the stand.  17 Q   You made mention of Amhalayt earlier in your  18 testimony, is that regalia of the House of Gitludahl?  19 A   Yes, it is.  20 Q   Now, if I may I would like to refer you to tab number  21 two of the document book, which is Exhibit 472, do you  22 recognize the blanket that is shown in this  23 photograph?  24 A   Yes, I do.  25 THE COURT:  Where are you, Mr. Rush?  26 MR. RUSH:  I am sorry, my lord, I should have said the Gitludahl  27 document book.  2 8 THE COURT:  Thank you.  2 9 MR. RUSH:  30 Q   Do you recognize this blanket?  31 A   Yes, I do.  32 Q   And what is the there is a crest that is depicted on  33 that blanket?  34 A   Yes.  35 MR. GOLDIE:  My lord, I am going to object to this witness  36 giving any evidence which relates to the history,  37 crests or traditions of his house and I do that  38 because he disclaimed any knowledge or insufficient  39 knowledge, to answer questions about this on his  40 examination for discovery.  And I don't see that it is  41 appropriate for one who disclaims knowledge on his  42 examination for discovery to be asked to give some  43 evidence here.  44 MR. RUSH:  Well, I don't think that's a matter for objection.  I  45 think that may be a matter for cross-examination.  46 MR. GOLDIE:  Well, no.  It goes to the question of whether he is  47 qualified.  And I will give your lordship some -- 7000  N. J. Sterritt (For Plaintiffs)  In Chief by Mr. Rush  1 MR. RUSH:  Perhaps I can save my friend some time, I don't  2 intend to ask him about the history.  I intend to ask  3 him whether or not that is the crest of Mediig'm  4 Gyamk.  5 MR. GOLDIE:  Why is it necessary?  Hasn't it been identified  6 before?  7 MR. RUSH:  Well, it may well have been identified before.  This  8 witness happens to hold the name of Mediig'm Gyamk and  9 I think it's quite relevant as to whether or not the  10 holder of the name can identify the crest which  11 attaches to the name.  12 MR. GOLDIE:  That may be so, but the witness on his examination  13 for discovery said that he was not very well versed in  14 the history or the matters of his house of Gitludahl  15 and I classify the crest as part of the history.  16 THE COURT:  Well, if a witness said on discovery "I don't know  17 anything about the crest of my house", I don't think I  18 would allow the witness to be examined at trial on  19 this issue, even though, in a logical world, what Mr.  20 Rush argues may be valid.  We don't live in a logical  21 world.  But, if the witness says I am not very well  22 versed then it may well be that it should be admitted  23 at trial, going, as lawyers so often say, to the  24 question of weight.  25 MR. GOLDIE:  Well, I think that your lordship is, if I may say  26 so, quite right in the majority of cases, but Mr.  27 Sterritt on his examination for discovery on February  28 26th, 1987, question 974 I put this question to him.  29  30 "Q   Now, Mr. Sterritt, what is the history of the  31 house of Gitludahl that you said existed in  32 December, 1983?  33 A   I referred to a history of Gitludahl and I  34 don't know it.  35 Q   You don't know it?  36 A   No.  37  38 In my view, with great respect --  39 THE COURT:  When was that discovery?  40 MR. GOLDIE:  That was in 1987, my lord.  It is one thing to talk  41 about weight, when the -- from the witness's knowledge  42 or his means of knowledge, can be questioned.  But  43 it's another thing to talk about the admission of  44 evidence by -- on the part of a witness who says he  45 doesn't know it.  Now, unless the crest is not part of  46 the history, and of course, if it isn't, I have  47 misunderstood a good deal of the evidence in this 7001  N. J. Sterritt (For Plaintiffs)  In Chief by Mr. Rush  1 case, then I don't think, with great respect, there  2 ought to be any questions put to him, even on the  3 question of recognition, because that must be hearsay.  4 MR. RUSH:  Well, my friend picks and chooses his portions of the  5 examination for discovery.  Question 976, 172.  6  7 Q   You say that under oath, Mr. Sterritt, that you  8 don't know the history of the house of  9 Gitludahl?  10 A   I don't know the detail of the history of  11 Gitludahl.  12 Q   What did you mean when you stated in December  13 of 1983: 'Our house histories exist today; we know  14 what they are'?  15 A   Our refers to the Gitksan and Wet'suwet'en  16 people.  17 Q   If you want to tell me what those histories are  18 that you are referring to, proceed.  19 A   I can't tell you.  I know they exist, the  20 hereditary chiefs know them.  21 Q   But you don't?  22 A   I don't know the house history of Gitludahl.  23 Q   Do you know the house history of any house?  24 A   No.  You mean the detail of it? I don't know. I  25 know very little.  The hereditary chiefs are the  26 ones that must answer that.  27 Q   But you have informed yourself when you drew  28 the outline of the boundaries on the map, you have  29 informed yourself of matters from the chiefs?  30 A   Chiefs said where the boundaries are."  31  32 And then over on page 174, question 985:  33  34 "Q   That is not my question.  35 A   I am aware of some of the history, I am not  36 aware of the details."  37  38 Then he is asked to give some references and he speaks  39 of the village of Temleham.  The point is, my lord, I  40 am not asking Mr. Sterritt whether or not he knows the  41 history of Mediig'm Gyamk, although I think I can.  I  42 don't think there is anything that prevents me from  43 that examination, from asking the question of the  44 history of Mediig'm Gyamk.  I am simply asking him to  45 identify from a photograph that's been identified by  46 Mr. Pete Muldoe, whether he recognizes the crest on  47 the blankets.  And I think I am entitled to do that. 7002  1  MR.  GOLDI  2  3  4  5  6  7  THE  COURT  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  MR.  RUSH:  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  THE  COURT  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  MR.  RUSH:  38  Q  39  40  A  41  42  43  Q  44  A  45  Q  46  A  47  Q  N. J. Sterritt (For Plaintiffs)  In Chief by Mr. Rush  £:  Well, your lordship should be aware of the  background of this, the witness stated that he was  instructed not to answer these questions on the  instructions of the hereditary chiefs and when he was  pressed on that he said he didn't have the knowledge  to answer the question.  :  My reaction is with considerable hesitation to allow  the evidence to be given, subject to the objection,  simply because I think there is less risk of any  serious harm being done than by excluding it.  I am  going to allow the question to be asked and I am going  to treat the objection as notice that as part of --  that there is a problem which I think may well go to  weight in this connection.  Well, I have one other point to make on that, my  lord.  The assumption that's built in behind my  friend's objection that that is all knowledge stops in  Mr. Sterritt's mind after 1987 and that one doesn't  learn and I think that -- and that knowledge isn't  accumulative and that education doesn't have a  progressive component.  And I simply reject any  assumption that is built there that knowledge is a  frozen concept.  :  I am assuming, Mr. Rush, that in cross-examination  your friend will develop his -- the basis for his  objection, which may or may not support a deduction on  the weight scales of this evidence.  If nothing more  happens, then the evidence is in, because I am, with  some hesitation, I am allowing it in.  If nothing else  happens then it stands for what it's put in for.  If  the defendant develops it, it may come out later, it  may not.  And the observations you have made may well  lead me to think that there should be no deduction on  account of weight.  It may be that one shouldn't.  I  am not making any determination in that area at this  moment.  Thank you, my lord.  Can you identify the crest that's displayed on the  blanket held by Mr. Pete Muldoe?  Yes, I can, that's the Mediig'm Gyamk crest in the  centre, the Grizzly of the Sun, the centre figure  beside the figure on each either side.  Is the person holding that blanket Mr. Pete Muldoe?  Yes, is, that's Gitludahl.  Had you seen that blanket prior to 1988?  Yes, I have.  All right.  Were you in court when Mr. Pete Muldoe 7003  N. J. Sterritt (For Plaintiffs)  In Chief by Mr. Rush  1 gave testimony?  2 A Yes, I was.  3 Q Were you in court when you heard Mr. Pete Muldoe  4 describe the history of that crest?  5 A Yes, I did.  6 Q Mr. Sterritt, what is your date of birth?  7 A April 9th, 1941.  8 Q And today you are 47?  9 A Yes.  10 Q Where were you born?  11 A I was born at Gitanmaax.  12 Q And where have you spent most of your life?  13 A I have spent most of my life in the -- within the  14 Gitksan territories.  15 Q And was there a period of time when you were outside  16 of the Gitksan territories?  17 A Yes, there was.  18 Q Who raised you as young person?  19 A My mother and my father and my grandmother.  2 0 Q And which grandmother was that?  21 A That was Kate Sterritt.  22 Q Are your mother and father still living?  23 A My mother is deceased, my father is still alive.  24 Q And when did your mother pass on?  25 A In 1967.  2 6 Q And you are married?  27 A Yes, I am.  28 Q To Barbara Sterritt?  29 A Yes.  30 Q When did you marry?  31 A September the 21st, 1963.  32 Q And is Barbara Sterritt a Gitksan person by birth?  33 A No, she is not.  34 Q Does she hold a Gitksan name?  35 A Yes, her Gitksan name is Ts'astamlax'ix.  36 THE TRANSLATOR:  1586.  37 MR. RUSH:  38 Q Now, she was adopted, was she?  39 A Yes, she was.  40 Q Into which house?  41 A The house of Xsaxgyoo, she was adopted by my aunt,  42 Gertie Morrison.  43 Q Xsaxgyoo is X-S-A-X-G-Y-O-0.  44 THE REGISTRAR:  Its 1585, my lord.  45 THE COURT:  And your aunt's first name?  46 A Gertie.  4 7 THE COURT:  Thank you. 7004  J. Sterritt (For Plaintiffs)  In Chief by Mr. Rush  What is the meaning of your wife's name?  It describes the rough neck of the grouse.  And do you have children?  Yes, I have two sons.  And their names are?  Gitksan names, if they have  them?  Gordon is Sigihl Madimtxw and Jamie is Si'ix  Ba'axhlxw.  1587 and 1588, my lord.  And what does Gordon's name mean in English?  It means intermittent snow.  And Jamie's name?  Well, it's better to describe it, if you are walking  along just in the shallow water on the edge of a creek  or river, the rocks are quite slippery, you keep  slipping and falling on the edge of the water as you  walk along, that's what Si'ix Ba'axhlxw means.  Do your wife and children participate in the Gitksan  feast?  Yes, they do.  And in what way do they participate?  When feasts are held by the Lax Gibuu of Kispiox, by  my aunt or by people close to my aunt, my wife brings  food and materials and does her Hawal contribution,  Hawal being the money that she puts in.  My sons do  the same thing, they help out.  And when there are  other wolf feasts in the area she will attend and she  will contribute and my sons may attend as well.  The -- if there are feasts that are hosted or where  the Wolf Clan are being witnesses, my wife attends  those as well.  Hawal, is that spelled H-A-A-W-L; is that correct?  34 THE TRANSLATOR:  H-A-W-A-L.  35 MR. RUSH:  Thank you.  And at the present time, Mr. Sterritt, where do you  live?  I live at Temlaham.  Where is that?  It's on the -- she wants the word.  41 THE TRANSLATOR:  It's 323 on the word list.  42 MR. RUSH:  Thank you.  43 Q   Go ahead.  44 A   Temlaham is within about a mile and a half of the  45 village of Gitanmaax and Hazelton, it's on the west  46 side of the Skeena on a stream, there is a large  47 series of meadows that extend there.  I live on the  1 MR.  RUSH  2  Q  3  A  4  Q  5  A  6  Q  7  8  A  9  10 MR.  RUSH  11  Q  12  A  13  Q  14  A  15  16  17  18  19  Q  20  21  A  22  Q  23  A  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  Q  36  Q  37  38  A  39  Q  40  A 7005  1  2  Q  3  4  A  5  6 MR.  RUSH:  7 THE  COURT  8 MR.  RUSH:  9  Q  10  A  11  Q  12  13  A  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  Q  22  23  24  A  25  Q  26  A  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  Q  39  40  A  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  N. J. Sterritt (For Plaintiffs)  In Chief by Mr. Rush  upper end of that large flat.  And do you know whose territory that -- your residence  is located?  Yes, that's the territory of Luutkudziiwus, Ben  McKenzie.  The House of Luutkudziiwus.  That's 44 on the plaintiff's list.  :  Thank you.  And when did you first take up residence there?  1976.  And did you have the permission of Luutkudziiwus to  live on this territory?  I talked to Luutkudziiwus, Ben McKenzie, and he was  quite happy about the fact that I had bought that  farm.  One of the reasons was that his wife's brother  had at one time been an owner of that farm, that would  be Gyolugyet, Mary McKenzie, and they were happy about  that and also I know Ben McKenzie, Luutkudziiwus, very  well and if he had been displeased he would have said  so when I told him about this.  Now, as a young person, Mr. Sterritt, were you trained  in Gitksan culture and laws by your family and  grandparents?  Yes, I was.  In what way did the -- did your early training occur?  My grandmother, Xsu wis, Kate Sterritt, used to make a  point of having me come and stay with her.  I spent a  lot of time with my grandmother.  She, her and my  grandfather took me to the berry patch, took me  picking berries in the summer time, they took me  fishing, I lived with her out in the bush camps and  she taught me about the rules, some of the rules  around the fishing sites and some of the ownership  around the berry patches, and taught me about respect,  primarilly about respect for animals and respect for  other people and how to conduct yourself at a young  age.  Did you hunt with your father or your family or your  grandparents?  Yes, I did.  My father and my grandfather took me and  my brother James with them when we were very, very  young and they showed us, my grandfather, I recall a  specific situation when my grandfather shot two moose,  and he took the time to show us the different internal  organs in the animal and how to clean the animal and  then how to cut it up.  We were too small to pack  anything except the heart and the tongue and the 7006  N. J. Sterritt (For Plaintiffs)  In Chief by Mr. Rush  liver, but we packed those out and they packed the  animal out, two animals out.  How old were you at that time, do you recall?  I would say I was about five years old.  They also took me goat hunting with my brother, and  other people, and they taught us how to hunt goats,  how to hunt moose, how to hunt deer and they taught us  some of the things that are important about hunting  mountain goats and being in the bush.  The survival  training, how to look after yourself, how to be  respectful of the animals, what to do when you do get  game and how to set up camps and they told us many of  the things that they had done when they were younger  while we were out in the bush.  You mentioned goat hunting, Mr. Sterritt, how old was  it that you recall, do you recall when you first went  out to hunt goat?  My father made a point of telling me when we would be  ready to go because it was much harder to hunt  mountain goats than to hunt moose or deer, and I was  about ten or 11 when he took us on a goat hunting  trip.  And have you hunted goat with your family and  grandparents or by yourself since then?  Yes, yes, goat hunting is an important part of our  particular family and of the Gitksan.  It's something  that is an important activity for our family and we  continue to do that.  All right.  Did you hunt goat in groups larger than  your family size?  Yes, we did.  We went with the owners of the territory  that we were on, the areas that we -- that my father  was working in, when we were through working we would  go to the mountains -- well, let me turn that around,  in particular, in the summer time when the mountain  goats were fat, when they were ready, then my father  would simply shut down the work we were doing and  everybody would go to the mountains, all the people  that worked for him and with him, all of us as younger  people, and we all went to the mountains.  The logging  was shut down.  Who were some of the people you went goat hunting with  at that time that you recall?  Djogo Gaak, that's Perry Samson.  45 THE TRANSLATOR:  That's 1589.  46 MR. RUSH:  Thank you.  47 A   Leonard Sexsmith, Howard Sexsmith and I think Howard's  1  2  3  Q  4  A  5  Q  6  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  Q  16  17  18  A  19  20  21  22  23  Q  24  25  A  26  27  28  29  Q  30  31  A  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  Q  43  44  A 7007  N. J. Sterritt (For Plaintiffs)  In Chief by Mr. Rush  1 name is Biihl Yeetxw, Guu sak toos --  2 MR. RUSH:  Just a moment.  3 THE TRANSLATOR:  B-I-I-H-L, space, Y-E-E-T-X-W.  4 MR. RUSH:  5 Q   Yes?  6 A   Guu sak toos, that's Freddie Jackson.  7 THE TRANSLATOR:  G-U-U, S-A-K, T-O-O-S.  8 MR. RUSH:  Thank you.  9 A   Txaaxwok, James Morrison.  He wasn't Txaaxwok at the  10 time but that's who it is now.   He has given evidence  11 here.  12 Q   Anyone else?  13 A   O'yee, Joshua McLean.  14 MR. RUSH:  That's 1590.  15 A   Thomas Green, I think that's -- and my father, Wii  16 Gaak.  17 Q   The name you mentioned, are these Gitksan people?  18 A   Yes, they are.  19 Q   Where did you go hunting?  20 A  We went up a number of places.  We went up Xsimatsi  21 Ho'ot.  22 THE TRANSLATOR:  That's 1591.  23 MR. RUSH:  Thank you.  24 A  And that's on the map is Sadiesh Creek?  25 MR. RUSH: Is that spelled S-A-D-I-E-S-H?.  26 A   Yes.  2 7 THE COURT:  Thank you.  28 MR. RUSH:  Thank you.  2 9       A  And we hunted at a mountain area at the head of  30 Sadiesh, the creek I just mentioned called An Wowanxw.  31 Q   Does that name, Gitksan name, have an English -- does  32 that refer to an English name on the government maps?  33 A   No, it does not.  34 Q   Do you recall any other mountain places where you  35 hunted then?  36 A   Yes, we went up to the head of Xsaiis, which is  37 Sterritt Creek.  38 THE TRANSLATOR:  X-S-A-I-I-S.  39 THE COURT:  All one word?  40 THE TRANSLATOR:  Yes.  41 THE COURT:  Thank you.  42 MR. RUSH:  I think, my lord, if I understood the spelling to be,  43 is it X-S-A-I-I-S?  44 THE TRANSLATOR:  Yes.  4 5 MR. RUSH:  46 Q   Now anywhere else that you recall, Mr. Sterritt,  47 hunting goat in those days when you were ten or 11? 700?  N. J. Sterritt (For Plaintiffs)  In Chief by Mr. Rush  1 A   Yes, we went up a mountain called Staax K'aay't,  2 Xsansi Mitsitxw, that's Pinenut Creek on the map.  3 MR. RUSH:  My spelling for Pinenut Creek is X-S-A-N-S-I, new  4 word, M-I-T-S-I-T-X-W.  5 Q   Did you say Staax K'aay't?  6 A   Yes.  7 THE TRANSLATOR:  I don't have it on here.  I can't find it.  8 THE TRANSLATOR:  I think it's 195.  9 MR. RUSH:  195 is S-T-A-K-H-A-Y-T, does that sound right, Mr.  10 Sterritt?  11 A   That's good.  12 Q   All right.  Now, these are the places that you hunted  13 for goat at that time?  14 A   Yes, they are.  15 Q   When you were hunting there, to your knowledge, did  16 you have permission of the owners of the territory?  17 A   Yes, we did.  My father and my grandfather had been  18 taken into that area by the owners from the House of  19 Gutginuxw, Thomas and Joe Samson.  20 MR. RUSH:  Gutginuxw is 14 on the plaintiffs' list.  21 Q   Yes?  22 A  And then when we were on these trips, Harry Samson was  23 from the house of Gutginuxw, is from the House of  24 Gutginuxw, and he always took us into those areas.  25 Q   You referred to a place, Xsimatsi Ho'ot, I think I  26 have got that right, it's 1591, whereabouts is that  27 located with reference to the Village of Kispiox, for  2 8 example?  29 A   It's on the east bank of the Skeena.  And it comes  30 into Skeena approximately 13 or 14 miles above the  31 Village of Kispiox.  It flows west into the Skeena  32 River.  33 Q   And Gutginuxw, is that a name in the Fireweed Clan?  34 A   Yes, it is.  They are from Kispiox.  35 Q   Were there other things as a young person that you  36 learned in relation to fishing?  37 A   Yes.  My grandmother taught me about the -- some of  38 the -- who the owners were of some of the fishing  39 sites.  She taught me how to catch fish and how to  40 clean it and how to preserve it.  She taught me how to  41 respect the fish, what you were supposed to do with  42 the remains of the fish and she also showed us how  43 even though she had fish she would distribute it to a  44 lot of other people.  She was always looking after  45 other people and it was quite common -- is common  46 amongst the Gitksan to distribute what you own to  47 other people. 7009  1  Q  2  A  3  Q  4  5  6  7  A  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  Q  18  19  20  A  21  Q  22  23  24  A  25  Q  26  27  A  28  Q  29  30  A  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  N. J. Sterritt (For Plaintiffs)  In Chief by Mr. Rush  Do you do that today?  Yes.  During that time when you were taught by your  grandmother, your father and the other people that you  hunted with that you have indicated, were you told  Gitksan names for places or Gitksan names for things?  Yes, my grandmother and my grandfather, my father and  many of the people who we were with were always joking  with me and my brothers and my cousins and telling us  the names of plants and trees, animals, and some of  the place names.  They were constantly informing us  about this in a joking way.  When I say joking, they  attached some humour to it as a way of trying help us  remember some of these things?   But my grasp of  Gitksan at this time was limited but I think they were  having more fun with me because of that.  Did you learn some of the names, place names or some  of the names for things that you came across?  when  you were being trained?  Yes.  Now, Mr. Sterritt, have you relied upon this training  since the time of your early training by your  grandparents and father?  Yes, I have.  And have you relied upon it in respect of your own  conduct today?  Yes, I have, and I do.  Now, in respect to your children, have you taught your  own children about what you have learned?  Yes, my two sons, Gordon and Jamie, as well as my  nephews by my sister, we have -- and my, I guess my  great nephews, the next generation down, my niece's  son, we have -- we spent a lot of time in the bush and  when we do I try to point out the things that my  grandmother and grandfather told me and what my father  told me and other people told me.  I make a point of  telling them these things.  I have specifically taught  my sons how to survive in the mountains.  They are,  even at a young age, 12 or 13, they could look after  themselves very competently in our territories.  Making camp, if they were ever lost they would know  what to do, they would know how to look after  themselves, there would be no need to worry about  them, because they know, even without blankets, they  would know how to make a camp, they would know what to  eat to survive and they would know how to find their  way out of a difficult area to get back to wherever 7010  1  2  Q  3  4  A  5  Q  6  A  7  8  Q  9  10  A  11  12  Q  13  14  A  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  Q  22  23  24  A  25  Q  26  27  28  A  29  30  31  32  33  Q  34  35  A  36  Q  37  A  38 THE  COURT  3 9 MR.  RUSH:  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  N. J. Sterritt (For Plaintiffs)  In Chief by Mr. Rush  they -- to a safe place.  Have you taught them about hunting methods that you  learned as a child?  Yes, I have.  Is this in relation to goat or moose?  I have taught them about moose hunting, goat hunting,  deer hunting and bear hunting.  Have they been on hunting trips of the kinds you  described with you and other members of the family?  Yes, they have they have been on many, many hunting  trips and they are quite capable hunters now.  When you were a child, did you also learn about the  Gitksan feast and Gitksan laws?  I was aware that my grandmother participated and was  very active in the feast.  She was attending feasts  all the time.  They were very important to her and my  grandfather and I knew what was -- what they were  doing and learned a little bit about it.  But my  grandmother was very strong in that regard, a person  who was underage was not allowed in a feast.  Just on that point, when you say underage, at that  time were you not of the age that would have allowed  you to attend feasts?  No, I was much too young.  All right. And did you learn about the Gitksan, did  you learn anything about the Gitksan territories and  fishing sites?  I was -- I went to fishing sites and to the  territories with my grandmother and my grandfather and  my father and those people who might -- who would  accompany them for different reasons and I learned a  certain amount from them at the time.  At that time, your grandmother was who, which  grandmother are we referring to?  This is Xsu wis, Kate Sterritt.  And your grandfather?  Charles Sterritt, Haaxw.  :  Should we take the morning break, Mr. Rush?  Yes, thank you.  I hereby certify the foregoing to be  a true and accurate transcript of the  proceedings herein to the best of my  skill and ability.  Wilf Roy 7011  1  2  3  4  5 THE  COURT  6 MR.  RUSH:  7  Q  8  9  10  A  11  Q  12  A  13  Q  14  A  15  Q  16  17  A  18  Q  19  A  20  21  Q  22  A  23  Q  24  A  25  Q  26  A  27  Q  28  A  29  Q  30  A  31  Q  32  A  33  34  Q  35  A  36  37  Q  38  A  39  40  Q  41  A  42  Q  43  44  A  45  46  47  N. J. Sterritt (For Plaintiffs)  In Chief by Mr. Rush  Official Reporter  (PROCEEDINGS RESUMED PURSUANT TO ADJOURNMENT)  :  Mr. Rush.  Thank you.  You talked about your Gitksan training, Mr. Sterritt.  Did you also attend high school, or the public school  and then high school?  Yes, I did.  Where did you attend high school?  I attended high school in Vancouver.  Did you attend grade school in Hazelton?  Yes.  Okay.  Perhaps just indicate to the court to what  grade you went to in Hazelton, and then what happened?  I went Grades 1 through 9 in Hazelton.  And after that?  Then I went through to Grade 12 in Vancouver.  I  attended Gladstone Senior Secondary in Vancouver.  And after -- did you finish Grade 12?  Yes, I did.  What did you do after that?  I went to university for two years.  Was that UBC?  Yes.  University of British Columbia.  And you were in the arts program there?  Yes.  Did you complete a degree at UBC?  No, I did not.  Did you attend another post-secondary institution?  Yes.  I went to the British Columbia Institute of  Technology in the mining technology program.  Okay.  And what year was that, do you recall?  19 -- it was in the first year that BCIT opened, and  that was the fall of 1964.  And did you complete a degree or a diploma from BCIT?  Yes, I have a diploma of mining technology from BCIT.  It was a two year program.  And what year did you finish?  1966.  And what -- what courses were included within that  program?  There was a variety of courses.  The -- there was a  technical writing course, and an English course,  mathematics, algebra.  I took, or part of the course  study was surveying and mapping.  Part of the course 7012  1  2  3  4  5  Q  6  7  8  A  9  10  11  12  13  Q  14  15  A  16  17  18  Q  19  A  20  Q  21  A  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  Q  30  A  31  Q  32  A  33  Q  34  35  36  37  A  38  39  Q  40  41  42  43  44  A  45  46  47  N. J. Sterritt (For Plaintiffs)  In Chief by Mr. Rush  study was metallurgy and mining practices.  There were  a couple of others.  I think in each year there was  six courses.  I'm not sure how many I've covered  there, but those are the main ones.  All right.  After you completed your course and  obtained your diploma at BCIT did you take any  subsequent formal education?  Yes.  When I was in Winnipeg at the University of  Manitoba as a night school program I took a Chartered  Institute of Secretaries course which -- where there  were three courses; accounting, economics and law.  They were kind of overview courses.  Okay.  And later did you do any formal training in an  institutional setting?  I took the Gitanmaax School of Northwest Coast Indian  art course at Hazelton.  It's a two year program, and  I took one year.  When was that?  19 — the winter of 1976, '77.  And what did you learn in that?  I learned basic design of Indian symbols, I learned  how to put together these symbols into the various  forms; animals, fish, insects to come up with a native  Indian art design.  I learned to do silk screening,  and I learned some carving.  That is given in the  first year.  I learned to do plaques and small bowls,  small poles, and I think that's -- there may be a  little bit more than that.  Did you do any print making yourself?  Yes, I did.  Did you produce prints?  Yes, I produced several prints.  Okay.  Was there any other formal education after your  completing the course, or at least completing one year  of the course of the Northwest Coast Indian art at  Ksan?  I don't recall at this time.  No, I don't believe  there was.  All right.  I'd like you to tell the court something  of your work history.  Can you talk about your early  work history, if you will, your work as a young man or  as an adolescent.  Perhaps you can say when you first  started working and what kind of work you did.  Well, it was quite common in the summertime to go and  be with -- I would be with my parents, or my father  and my grandparents in the bush, and what I learned  was at a very young age, and what I mean by that is 7013  1  2  3  Q  4  5  A  6  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  Q  17  18  A  19  20  21  22  Q  23  A  24  25  26  Q  27  28  29  A  30  31  32  33  34  35  Q  36  A  37  Q  38  A  39  Q  40  A  41  42  43  44  Q  45  46  A  47  Q  N. J. Sterritt (For Plaintiffs)  In Chief by Mr. Rush  nine, ten, 11, how to log.  My grandfather, my father  and then my uncle had small logging camps.  What kind of logging were they involved in, and that  you recall doing?  My grandfather and my father owned a cedar pole camp,  they each had their own, and my uncle also had a  lumber camp, and I was involved in all three of those.  At a very young age what I learned was there were no  power saws then so we were falling trees by hand with  a saw and an axe.  We learned to peel the bark off the  pole.  And at that time we were using horses to skid  the logs, the poles in, and so I learned how to skid  with the horses and how to handle the horses.  And we  did that from time to time, and participated in --  learn some of the work.  What year can you identify as a year that you did this  type of work?  1952, '53.  From then on.  And we were always in the  pole camps before that, but getting into starting to  work in our own way at that time and contributing to  the cutting of poles, and so on.  Were these summer jobs?  Yes.  But we went out on long weekends, we went out on  the -- at Christmas.  Whenever we had spare time we  were out -- we would go out to help.  And where was it that the cedar pole or pole skinning  operations were conducted by your father or your  grandfather?  My grandfather had a cedar pole operation directly  west of Hazelton on the territory of Luutkudziiwus  from the House of Luutkudziiwus.  If you're standing  in Hazelton and looking west it's directly west across  Hazelton, and there was a trail that went up to, and  skid road up to his logging camp.  Is there a name for that trail?  I don't know.  There was no particular name for that.  Okay.  And that was your grandfather's operation?  Yes.  What about your father?  My father helped my grandparents there, and then he  had his own cedar pole operation out the Wii Sas Goo.  That's the Suskwa River at Hlgu Sas Goo.  That's Nine  Mile Creek on the map.  I wonder if we could just get a spelling of Wii Sas  Goo.  Wii Sas Goo, is that Nine Mile Creek?  No, that's the Suskwa River.  I'm sorry. 7014  N. J. Sterritt (For Plaintiffs)  In Chief by Mr. Rush  1 A  And Hlgu Sas Goo is the Nine Mile Creek.  2 THE TRANSLATOR:  Wii Sas Goo.  3 A   Goo.  4 THE TRANSLATOR:  W-I-I S-A-S G-O-K.  5 THE TRANSLATOR:  And what was the other one?  6 A   Hlgu Sas Goo.  7 THE TRANSLATOR:  Oh.  8 A   Hlgu Sas Goo  9 THE TRANSLATOR:  Hlgu Sas Goo.  10 A  Wii Sas Goo and Hlgu Sas Goo are two different places.  11 THE TRANSLATOR:  The second one is H-L-G-U S-A-S G-O-K.  12 MR. RUSH:  Thank you.  13 Q   Now, Mr. Sterritt, how many years in all did you spend  14 working with your father and your grandfather in their  15 logging operations?  Do you recall?  16 A   Until I graduated from high school in 1960 I worked  17 every summer with my father and my grandfather, and  18 before that, or pardon me, after that I worked with my  19 father again all through the winter of 1964.  So we'd  20 be looking at something like --  21 Q   You said 1952 I think.  Is that what, 12 years then.  22 Would that be right?  23 A   Yes, that would be quite right.  24 Q   Did -- you mention your uncle.  Did you work with your  25 uncle in a logging operation of his?  26 A   Yes.  27 Q   Which uncle is that?  28 A   That was my Uncle Walter Sterritt, Tarn At'sap.  29 Q   Tarn At'sap.  Is there an English name for Tarn At'sap?  30 A   Tarn At'sap, something about closing the door.  I'm not  31 quite sure about that.  32 Q   Where is this located?  33 A   Oh, I'm sorry.  Tarn At'sap was my uncle's name.  34 Q   Oh, I'm sorry.  Tarn At'sap is Walter Sterritt's name?  35 A  Walter Sterritt.  The territory that he was on was --  36 the territory was -- or was that Sax Ge'en.  That's  37 Tenas Mountain.  That's on the east side of Tenas  38 Mountain.  39 MR. GOLDIE:  Tenas?  40 MR. RUSH:  T-E-N-A-S.  41 A  And by then my grandfather also had a pole operation  42 right next to my uncle's lumber operation.  43 MR. RUSH:  All right.  And Sax Ge'en, I think we have had this  44 in Mr. Muldoe's testimony, S-A-X G-E-'-E-N.  Now, the  45 name of Walter Sterritt, could you spell that for us,  46 please?  47 THE TRANSLATOR:  T-A-M A-T-'-S-A-P. 7015  N. J. Sterritt (For Plaintiffs)  In Chief by Mr. Rush  1 MR. RUSH:  Thank you.  2 Q   Now, Mr. Sterritt, you indicated that you went to high  3 school in Vancouver.  Do I take it from your testimony  4 that you returned in the summertime to Hazelton and  5 worked with your family members during the summer  6 period?  7 A   Yes, I did.  8 Q   Okay.  Now, did you work for a mining company by the  9 name of Max Corporation at about this time in 1964?  10 A   Yes.  I first went to work with Max in the summer of  11 1964.  12 Q   Okay.  And Max Corporation is a mining company, is  13 it?  14 A   It's a minerals exploration company.  15 Q   Okay.  And in the summer of '64 that was the first  16 time you went with them.  What was it that you did?  17 A  Well, I was -- I was logging with my father and they  18 shut the bush down due to the fire season, and I had  19 nothing to do at that time so Max was in the area,  20 and had been working there for awhile prospecting, and  21 they needed someone to go out with some — one of  22 their prospectors who didn't know the area, and he  23 liked to work by himself, and they were worried about  24 his safety, one of their prospectors.  They asked me  25 if I would work for them, so I did.  I went to work  26 for Max and went out to Xsi Andap Matx, north of  27 Kisgagas, north of the Village of Kisagas to an area  28 that they were investigating at that time.  29 Q   Okay.  Now, just hold on, please.  30 A   Xsi Andap Matx, that's Goat Head Creek on the  31 topographic map.  32 Q   M'hm.  33 A  And that's —  34 MR. RUSH:  Just a moment, please.  Xsi Andap Matx.  35 THE TRANSLATOR:  X-S-I A-N-D-A-P M-A-T-X.  3 6 MR. RUSH:  37 Q   And Goat Head Creek in relation to the Village of  38 Kispiox or Kisgagas, where would that Goat Head Creek  39 be?  40 A   Goat Head Creek flows into Shedin Creek.  41 Q   Is that S-H-E-D-I-N?  42 A   Yes.  And the head of Goat Head Creek is about ten  43 miles north of Kisgagas.  Shedin Creek runs into the  44 Babine River, Xsi git Gwoimt, very close to the  45 Village of Kisgagas just downstream.  There is two  4 6 names for Babine River and I gave you one of them.  47 THE TRANSLATOR:  X-S-I G-I-T G-W-O-I-M-T. 7016  N. J. Sterritt (For Plaintiffs)  In Chief by Mr. Rush  1 THE COURT:  G-W-O-I —  2 THE TRANSLATOR:  M.  3 THE COURT:  M.  4 THE TRANSLATOR:  T.  5 MR. RUSH:  6 Q   Now, that was in the summer of '64?  7 A   Yes.  I also that summer worked another place called  8 Xsi Luu Skats'it.  It's farther up Xsi git Gwoimt  9 about 12 miles, and then into the mountains south of  10 Xsi git Gwoimt, the Babine River.  11 Q   Does that have an English name on the map, to your  12 knowledge?  13 A   The Xsi Luu Skats'it?  14 Q   Yes.  15 A   It's in the neighbourhood of Tomlinson Mountain.  It's  16 north of Tomlinson Mountain.  17 Q   And is that a creek?  18 A   No, it's not Tomlinson Creek.  It's locally called  19 Clifford Creek.  And Tomlinson Creek is Xsimatsi  20 Ho'ot, and so it's on the other side of the mountain.  21 It's part of the same area.  22 Q   If we can just get the name of the creek that you  23 identified as to the second place that you went with  24 the prospector in that summer of '64, locally known as  25 Clifford Creek and Xsi Luu Skats'it?  26 A   Xsi Luu Skats'it.  27 MR. RUSH:  My spelling on that, my lord, X-S-I L-U-U  2 8 S-K-A-T-S-A-A-'-T.  I think we have that.  We're just  2 9 not able to find it at the moment.  30 Q   Now, that was the summer of '64, Mr. Sterritt.  Did  31 you work with Max again in a subsequent year?  32 A   I worked with Max until 1973.  I worked for them two  33 more summers as a part time employee.  34 Q   That would be '65 and '66, is that right?  35 A   Oh, 1965 part time, and then when I graduated from  36 BCIT they hired me full time, and I continued through  37 until 1973, the spring of 1973 with Max.  38 Q   Okay.  All right.  Now, when you were working with  39 Max, perhaps you can explain if there are different  40 activities that you performed, but initially what sort  41 of work did you perform on behalf of Max in the  42 summers of '64 and '65 and then later in ' 66?  43 A   In -- well, I have to go back to 1960 and 61 and '62,  44 because I worked for a mining company after my  first  45 year of university, '61, and --  4 6 Q   Which company?  47 A   Kennecott or Kennco, K-E-N-N-C-O.  That was a 7017  N. J. Sterritt (For Plaintiffs)  In Chief by Mr. Rush  1 subsidary of Kennecott explore -- or Kennecott Mining.  2 Kennco Explorations I went to work as a summer student  3 in a place called Galore Creek up on the Stikine  4 River.  There I was hired on simply as someone with a  5 strong back.  We went in and did all kinds of work;  6 geophysical surveying, geochemical surveying, actual  7 chip sampling, which means that you take a sample of  8 rock off a whole cliff face or a rock outcropping.  9 And during that summer myself and another young fellow  10 learned a tremendous amount of identifying rocks and  11 minerals and so built up quite a fairly good  12 background in prospecting.  And I worked again the  13 following year with Kennecott, not on the Galore Creek  14 property, but with a small surveying crew, geological  15 survey crew.  There was four of us.  Two of us had  16 qualified then as assistants, geological assistants.  17 We worked with two geologists.  And what we did was  18 try and identify satellite properties all the way  19 around Galore Creek, because it was a tremendous  20 mineralized area and there was potential within  21 several hundred square miles to find more deposits.  22 We worked on that.  And I increased my skills as an, I  23 guess you could say, prospector.  24 Q   When you say -- excuse me, if I may.  When you say you  25 increased your skills as a prospector what sort of  26 thing did that include?  27 A  Well, one of the other duties in the summer when I  28 first worked for Max was doing -- helping to do plane  29 table surveying.  30 Q   Yes.  31 A   That is a way of doing very detailed mapping right on  32 the ground and using a plane table.  A plane table is  33 something a little bigger than this, about 24 inches  34 by 24 inches.  You put a piece of paper on it and then  35 you have -- and you orient it north and south, and you  36 have a survey instrument that lays right on it with a  37 parallel line, and then the job of someone like myself  38 or someone else was to go around with a stadia rod so  39 you would get angles and distances, and you through  40 the machine that was on the plane table you could then  41 draw maps, and you would have a certain scale you  42 would be using so you could -- well, you could map an  43 area the size of this room quite easily, or twice as  44 big quite easily.  And I learned to -- I learned what  45 the process was, and I assisted in doing that.  46 Q   Okay.  When you were doing that you said that this  47 occurred at Galore Creek? 701?  1  A  2  3  Q  4  5  6  A  7  8  9  10  11  12  Q  13  A  14  15  16  Q  17  A  18  Q  19  20  A  21  Q  22  A  23  Q  24  A  25  Q  26  27  28  A  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  Q  40  A  41  Q  42  A  43  44  45  46  47  N. J. Sterritt (For Plaintiffs)  In Chief by Mr. Rush  That occurred -- yes, we did that at Galore Creek the  first time I saw it.  Is this in an area -- how big would the area be that  it was that you were carrying on the type of activity  that you just described?  Well, the Galore Creek mineralized area that was being  investigated would be in the neighbourhood of eight  miles long by four miles wide.  It was quite a large  area.  And the area that we would do the plane table  surveying on we would go to a rock feature and it  would be as big as this room, or maybe twice as big.  All right.  But the area we worked doing all these other  activities was throughout the whole 32 square miles or  so.  Did you keep field books of your work?  Not at that time.  Okay.  Was that something that you did later with  Kennco or with Max?  In the following summer we had to keep field books.  Would this now be the summer of 1962?  Yes.  Now you're talking about Kennco?  Yes.  All right.  And the field books that you were required  to keep did you make recordings in these of certain  things?  Yes, I did.  In the summer of 19 -- in the following  summer we had to keep -- keep track of the sample  locations where we were doing samples.  We had to  identify rock features and mineralized areas, and we  had to -- we also carried both a map and an air photo,  and we identified on the air photo and on the map  where we were taking samples, or where we discovered  something that was anomalous in that area, something  that was of interest to the company.  Then in the  evenings we would plot those sites on another map at a  different scale in our base camp.  This is still out at the Galore site?  This is during the summer in the field.  Okay.  The other thing we did, any samples we took were sent  out for analysis and when they got the results of  those analysis they came back to us in the field as  soon as they could, and if we saw an area of interest  we identified that and went back.  I should tell you  what I mean by that.  We took silt and water samples 7019  1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  Q  11  12  13  A  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  Q  30  31  A  32  Q  33  A  34  35  Q  36  A  37  Q  38  39  A  40  Q  41  42  A  43  44  Q  45  A  46  47  N. J. Sterritt (For Plaintiffs)  In Chief by Mr. Rush  from -- we surveyed an entire glacier system, and the  glacier was something 30 or 40 miles long, and we  would walk off the glacier, take a sample, enter all  this information into our book, and carry on.  And it  took us some time to do that.  Eventually the results  of that came and we identified some interesting areas.  We went back and worked on that.  There was always a  correlation between the field work and the maps and  the information we were gathering.  In that process were there certain difficulties that  you experienced in the mapping or the surveying you  described?  Yes.  We were also prospecting, and you might -- where  there was outcropping you could get a firsthand sample  if you took a soil sample, and if you found two areas  of interest and took a soil sample in between it might  be anomalous.  In other words, of higher value, or it  might be lower value indicating there might not be  something under there.  What you wanted to do was  correlate the information from each area and try and  determine whether those features went under the soil  or the overburden.  And the difficulty was in really  determining whether that was what was under there.  The only way you could really determine what kind of  rock was underneath, or what the mineralization was  was by diamond drilling or by scraping the soil away  with a bulldozer, which we didn't have.  We were well  out in the bush.  All right.  So that takes us to the end of the summer  of 1962, does it?  I think we're off by one year.  It was '62, '63.  All right.  First '62 at Galore Creek, '63 in the area, '64 back  logging again, and then with Max.  All right.  That brings us up to that point.  Now, when you completed your diploma with BCIT you  then began working full time with Max, is that right?  Yes.  And where did you work with Max after that?  What was  the location of the work that you did?  I worked at Wu Dzun Ben, Morice Lake, on the mountains  just south of there.  Okay.  Was that where you started to work with --  I started with Max north of Hazelton.  During the  summers I worked with Max at Lucky Ship, which is  just south of Wu Dzun Ben, Morice Lake. 7020  N. J. Sterritt (For Plaintiffs)  In Chief by Mr. Rush  1 Q   Okay.  2 A  And so I spent three years on that property as well as  3 doing a little bit of work in the surrounding area.  4 Q   You're talking about in the area of Morice Lake, are  5 you?  6 A   Yes.  7 Q   All right.  Now, you've indicated that you worked at a  8 place north of Hazelton --  9 A   Yes.  10 Q   — For Max?  11 A   Yes.  12 Q   And that's at a different time than the time that you  13 worked at Morice River or Morice Lake?  14 A   Yes.  15 Q   Where was that other place that you worked north of  16 Hazelton?  17 A  Well, that was at Xsimatsi Ho'ot and Xsi Luu Skats'it.  18 Q   That's the Tomlinson Mountain reference and Clifford  19 Creek, is that right?  20 A   Yes.  21 Q   Did you work anywhere else for Max Corporation close  22 by to Terrace or Hazelton or Smithers?  23 A   I was based at Xsi gwin K'aat, that's Fiddler Creek.  24 Actually at a tributary near the head of Xsi gwin  25 K'aat.  That's in the territory of the Kitwanga  26 eagles, Sakum Higookw.  27 MR. RUSH:  Now, Xsi gwin K'aat, could you give us the spelling  28 for that, please.  29 THE TRANSLATOR:  X-S-I G-W-I-N K-'-A-A-T.  3 0 MR. RUSH:  31 Q   Now, did you work anywhere else in the Hazelton or  32 Smithers area for Max?  33 A  Well, I spent a bit of time at Smithers one summer,  34 but that wasn't very long.  At that time they were  35 really giving me a little -- they were trying to give  36 me a rest, because I had spent eight months working  37 seven days a week -- or not eight months -- not --  38 eight months working seven days a week in Manitoba,  39 and they transferred me back to Smithers for the  40 summer to have an easy summer of it, but ten days  41 later they sent me to the Yukon, and I put in three  42 months straight up there.  So I worked on a number of  43 areas around Smithers.  I went out kind of expediting  44 activities.  I was getting more involved then in  45 administrating, in logistics, in setting up programs  46 and less in the technical end.  47 Q   I see.  Did you ever work at White Sail Lake? 7021  1  A  2  3  4  5  6  7  Q  8  9  10  A  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  Q  21  A  22  23  Q  24  A  25  26  27  28  Q  29  A  30  31  Q  32  A  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  Q  41  A  42  Q  43  A  44  45  Q  46  A  47  N. J. Sterritt (For Plaintiffs)  In Chief by Mr. Rush  While I was at the Morice Lake area I took a field  trip.  We were invited down there with some of the  people I worked with at Kennecott, and they invited us  down there for a day trip, and we flew down by  helicopter and did some work in that area and visited  and then came back.  You worked at a number of locations outside of Canada  for Max after this period that you spent in Smithers,  is that right?  I worked -- well, before I went out of the country I  worked in -- I worked in the Yukon.  Out of British  Columbia I worked in the northern Yukon, I worked in  Manitoba near Thompson, Manitoba.  I worked -- that  was a major program that they needed some -- a number  of people to go into and work on.  Then I went to  northern Quebec.  There was an accident, some people  were killed, and they needed someone to go and look  after that, set that project up and keep it running.  I was delegated to go do that.  Did you work in Ireland?  Yes.  I went -- from Winnipeg I was transferred to  Northern Ireland and --  About how long were you there?  I spent almost a year, about ten months there setting  up an office in Northern and Southern Ireland, and  conducting the administration and logistics and  overseeing some field crews.  How long were you in Quebec?  I was there about two to three months until they could  get another party chief on the project again.  I understand you worked with Max in Arizona?  Yes.  When I left -- they were offering me another  plum when I left Ireland.  That was a hard job, and  they offered me another one.  My boss came along and  asked me if I wanted to go to Miami, and I went home  and told my wife we were going to go to Miami, but I  didn't know why, because I didn't know whether there  were any mines in Miami.  It turned out it was Miami,  Arizona.  So you went to Miami, Arizona, did you?  Yes.  And what year did you go there?  1972, about September of '72, and I left there in  1973.  Okay.  And you left there for where?  I went home.  The choice was Australia or home and I  felt it was time to go home. 7022  1  Q  2  3  A  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  Q  11  12  A  13  Q  14  A  15  16  17  18  19  20  Q  21  22  A  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  Q  34  35  36  A  37  Q  38  A  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  N. J. Sterritt (For Plaintiffs)  In Chief by Mr. Rush  Okay.  And do you recall the month it was that you  returned to your home?  It was in -- in June, or pardon me, I went to Hazelton  in May to look at the situation and I talked to my  employers from Max and discussed it with them, and  they said that I could go up and have a look at it,  and also that I was welcome to continue on if I wanted  at any time, but I went home and looked at it in May  and went back and got my family in the end of June.  All right.  Did you leave -- was there a job that you  went to in Hazelton after -- well, in June of 1973?  Yes.  What was that job?  I was employed as a project director for Ksan Indian  Village and Museum.  It had been set up as a volunteer  organization, nonprofit society, and it was growing  and they felt that they needed a full time manager  director to cope with the growth that was going on at  the time.  Okay.  Now, you said it was time for you to return  home.  What did you mean by that?  My children -- we were in Ireland and my one son was  four and he was in Grade 1.  We went to Arizona and he  was five and he was in kindergarten, and the company  was advising me that we would be going to -- the next  move was probably to Australia and I knew that my son  would then be back on the Northern Ireland -- similar  parallel system to Northern Ireland which meant he was  moving in and out of educational systems.  We felt  that would be a problem.  And, secondly, I really  wanted my children to know something about their  Gitksan ancestory and the Gitksan territories.  The job that you took as project director at Ksan,  what is it that you were required to do with them?  Was that a full time or a part time job?  That was a full time job.  Had it previously been a full time job?  I was the -- there were employees.  Yaghaahl, Dora  Kenni, was one of the senior employees there.  And  there was a couple of others there, but they were  involved in sales and tours, and they felt they needed  someone to help to pull together the expanding sales  that were going on, that were developing throughout  Canada and the States and even Europe.  They needed  someone to oversee that.  And I had some of the skills  from my administrative experience with Max that could  help out there. 7023  1  Q  2  3  4  5  6  A  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  Q  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  A  24  Q  25  26  A  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  Q  40  41  A  42  Q  43  44  A  45  46  47  N. J. Sterritt (For Plaintiffs)  In Chief by Mr. Rush  All right.  Now, I just want to pause there.  In the  12 years of the work that you performed with Max can  you just summarize what were some of the skills that  you learned while you were employed with them over  that period?  Well, some of my technical skills grew with the  different projects that I was involved in.  I did -- I  still had to do technical work, and that would be --  that was in terms of diamond drilling techniques,  geochemical and geophysical techniques, mapping.  I  did -- eventually I engaged directly in some plane  table surveying and mapping which I had participated  in as a helper earlier.  Also surveying, some of which  skills I learned at BCIT, but what I moved into with  Max was in the logistical and administrative end.  Just before you go to that, if I may interrupt you,  where you mentioned that in 1962 you were required to  keep field notes of things -- of data that you had  collected and observations that you made, after that  year and while you worked with Max did you also keep  field books and field records of what you did while  you were doing the technical work that you described?  Yes, I did.  And can you just say what -- what skills it was that  you developed there, if any?  Well, it was -- it followed along the same line as  earlier when I was doing prospecting.  It involved  relating field information to air photos and maps,  correlating the information on maps, coming up with  schematic representations of geological features and  geological areas, trying to determine what the nature  of the geology was of a given area, and if you were --  when we were doing diamond drilling doing both  vertical sections and trying to typify them on a map  or on a piece of paper as well as the horizontal  projections.  And I also got involved in three  dimensional representations of ore bodies during that  period as well.  Okay.  Now, you mentioned logistics.  By this do you  mean administrative?  Well, yes, logistics.  What skill, if you can summarize the skill, that you  developed there?  Well, the logistical end there were -- I ended up, I  guess, becoming a specialist in remote access,  helicopter supported diamond drill jobs.  The  difficult access jobs that -- the ones that were 7024  N. J. Sterritt (For Plaintiffs)  In Chief by Mr. Rush  1 conducted for example in the northern Yukon was a very  2 difficult job.  We had to use airplanes and  3 helicopters over great distances, large amounts of men  4 and large amounts of supplies.  So the logistics were  5 scheduling, getting men in and out, getting the food,  6 getting the diamond drilling done, and we encountered  7 some major problems there with permafrost, which  8 people hadn't encountered in that area before.  The  9 administrative end was that I had to keep track of  10 accounts.  I had to -- we had a running cheque book  11 and I had to keep track of books and payroll to the  12 extent that I submitted time sheets to Vancouver, and  13 they came back, monthly reports, financial and field  14 reports.  And that -- that grew from being smaller  15 jobs to ending up on bigger jobs.  That's why I ended  16 up in Manitoba.  They needed their -- from freeze  17 up -- from freeze up to thaw in the spring we were  18 spending in the neighbourhood of two or three or four  19 million dollars in a number of months and they needed  20 someone to go and set up accounting and administration  21 of that.  Geologists had previously been doing that,  22 but I was kind of filling a niche that geologists  23 weren't doing, and that's what happened.  24 Q   In your logistics and your technical and your  25 administrative tasks throughout each one of these were  26 you required to work with maps?  27 A   Yes.  All of -- all geologic prospecting, geology is  2 8 very, very much map oriented.  You become familiar  29 with working with maps to different scales, to map  30 different features, to not just -- not just  31 topographic maps, but geological maps.  As I mentioned  32 already, sections and plane views, or horizontal  33 views, and sectional and isometric as well as angles.  34 Q   Now, when you took the job of the project director at  35 Ksan in June of '73 what were the tasks that you were  36 expected to fulfill when you took up that role?  37 A   There were several levels.  I helped to — I helped  38 Dora Kenni, and I worked to set up a cost control  39 system, set up the books.  And the books were already  40 there, but we expanded it to have a cost control  41 system and to keep track of revenue and expense in  42 addition to the cost control system, so there was the  43 bookkeeping accounting end.  44 Q   Was there an administrative end?  45 A   In the administrative end it was supervising the  46 employees and the clerks, pardon me, the tour guides.  47 And the girls were already quite familiar with looking 7025  N. J. Sterritt (For Plaintiffs)  In Chief by Mr. Rush  1 after the day-to-day sales, and things like that.  2 They did that, but I was involved in getting into  3 expanding the sales, examining markets, finding  4 buyers, and also obtaining contracts and negotiating  5 the contracts for the carvers, and getting the  6 materials in and then supervising the carrying out of  7 those contracts, major contracts.  Like the Royal Bank  8 here in Vancouver has a major mural.  It's about 40  9 feet long and 80 feet high.  There is some totem poles  10 out in Surrey.  That's one of the contracts.  Those  11 types of things.  12 Q   At this time, Mr. Sterritt, did you -- was there an  13 organization known as the Gitksan-Carrier Tribal  14 Council?  15 A   Yes, there was.  16 Q   Operating at that time?  17 A   Yes, there was.  18 Q   And did you -- what was the relationship, if any,  19 between your job at the Ksan association and the  20 tribal council?  Firstly, was there a relationship of  21 any kind?  22 A   No, there was no relationship at that time.  23 Q   Okay.  Now, was -- did you yourself attend any tribal  24 council meetings or do anything in 1973, or yes, in  25 1973 in relation to the tribal council?  26 A   The tribal council was holding a meeting and some of  27 the members of the tribal council asked me to attend.  2 8 Q   Do you remember just about when that was?  29 A   It was, I think, in the latter part of the year.  30 Q   Of 1973?  31 A   Of 1973.  October perhaps, or sometime August to  32 October.  Somewhere in that period.  33 Q   All right.  And you were asked to attend a meeting.  34 And do you recall who it was that asked you to attend?  35 A  Alvin Weget, Dinii.  36 Q   Is that D-I-N-I-I?  37 A   Yes.  38 Q   And Weget is W-E-G-E-T?  39 A   Yes.  He and others.  And Howard Wale.  His name is  40 Dee.  41 Q   Is that D-E-E?  42 A   Yes.  Well, that's what I recall now, those two.  43 Q   All right.  The tribal council, at that time did it  44 have a president?  45 A   Yes.  Yes, it did.  4 6 Q   And do you remember who that was?  47 A   It was Wadii.  I won't spell it.  Wadii.  Ray Jones. 7026  N. J. Sterritt (For Plaintiffs)  In Chief by Mr. Rush  1 THE TRANSLATOR:  That's 1593.  2 THE COURT:  1593.  Thank you.  3 MR. RUSH:  4 Q   And directors, were there directors or executive  5 members?  6 A   Yes.  7 Q   Do you know who they were?  8 A   Dinii, Alvin Weget, hereditary chief.  9 Q   Yes.  10 A   Dee, Howard Wale.  11 Q   What house is Howard Wale in?  12 A   The House of Gyoimt.  13 Q   And what clan is that?  14 A   That's wolf clan, Lax Gibuu from Kisgagas.  Anlagasim  15 deek.  16 MR. RUSH:  Okay.  17 THE TRANSLATOR:  A-N-L-A-G-A-S-I-M D-E-E-K.  Underline.  18 THE COURT:  Thank you.  19 MR. RUSH:  20 Q   Some of the other people that were on the -- well,  21 maybe I should ask you.  I'm assuming it was an  22 executive and board of directors.  Was there an  23 executive?  24 A   Yes.  25 Q   Was that different from the board of directors?  26 A   Yes.  27 Q   Okay.  28 A   It was Wadii, Ray Jones, who I've already mentioned.  29 Q   Yes.  30 A  And Misloos, Victor Jim.  31 MR. RUSH:  That's M-I-S-A-L-O-O-S.  I'm sorry, it's  32 M-I-S-L-O-O-S, my lord.  33 A   I don't recall who the treasurer or secretary might  34 have been at the time.  35 Q   And there was a board of directors then?  36 A   Yes.  37 Q   Do you remember the names of some of the people who  38 were on the board of directors at that time in 1973?  39 A   Gawa ganii, Edgar Good.  40 THE TRANSLATOR:  G-A-W-A G-A-N-I-I.  41 MR. RUSH:  42 Q   And do you know Gawa ganii's house?  43 A   The house of Xamlaxyeltxw from Kitwancool.  44 THE TRANSLATOR:  Xamlaxyeltxw is 85.  45 THE COURT:  I'm sorry.  4 6 MR. RUSH:  85, my lord.  47 THE TRANSLATOR:  On the plaintiff's list. 7027  N. J. Sterritt (For Plaintiffs)  In Chief by Mr. Rush  1 MR. RUSH:  On the plaintiff's list.  2 Q   Do you recall anyone else who was on the board of  3 directors at that time, Mr. Sterritt?  4 A   Yes, from the House of Guxsan, Hlgu Tsetsawit, Richard  5 Morgan.  6 MR. RUSH:  Perhaps you should -- I'm not sure that we have that  7 name.  Perhaps you could just spell it for us, please.  8 A   Hlgu Tsetsawit.  9 THE TRANSLATOR:  I don't know how to spell it.  H-L-G-U.  10 THE COURT:  H-L-G-U.  11 THE TRANSLATOR:  Space, T-S-E-T-S-A-W-I-T.  12 MR. RUSH:  13 Q   Was Johnny Mack another person that was on the board  14 of directors at that time?  15 A   Yes.  Klo um khum, Johnny Mack, from the Wet'suwet'en.  16 MR. RUSH:  36 on the plaintiff's list.  17 A  And Richard Benson from the House of Gyolugyet.  18 Q   Okay.  19 A   'Kla'ee yuu was his name.  20 THE TRANSLATOR:  '-K-l-a-'-e-e y-u-u.  Can you say it again?  21 A   'Kla'ee yuu.  22 THE COURT:  Okay.  23 A  And I believe Gisdaywa, Alfred Joseph.  I'm not  24 positive about that.  2 5 MR. RUSH:  26 Q   Okay.  So you attended -- well, is that all?  I'm  27 sorry, Mr. Sterritt.  Were there any others that you  28 recall as having been on the board of directors of  29 the —  30 A   Ken Russell, but I don't know his Indian name, his  31 Gitksan name.  He's from Kitsegukla, but he's from a  32 house -- a wolf house in Kitwancool.  33 Q   Do you recall whether or not at that time the tribal  34 council was an incorporated or an unincorporated  35 association?  36 A   It was not incorporated.  37 Q   So you were asked to go to that meeting in 19 --  38 THE COURT:  Mr. Rush, I think if you're going into the meeting I  39 would rather adjourn and look after it -- start afresh  40 with the meeting at two o'clock, please.  Thank you.  41 MR. RUSH:  Thank you.  42 THE REGISTRAR:  Order in court.  We'll adjourn until two.  43  44  45  46  47 702?  N. J. Sterritt (For Plaintiffs)  In Chief by Mr. Rush  1  2  3 (PROCEEDINGS ADJOURNED)  4  5 I hereby certify the foregoing to be  6 a true and accurate transcript of the  7 proceedings herein to the best of my  8 skill and ability.  9  10  11  12 Peri McHale, Official Reporter  13 UNITED REPORTING SERVICE LTD.  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47 7029  1  2 1 (Proceedings resumed at 2:00 o'clock p.m.)  2  3 THE REGISTRAR:  Calling Delgamuukw versus Her Majesty the Queen.  4 MR. GOLDIE:  My lord, before my friend resumes, I said I would  5 chase gown the questions of Wii Gaak's genealogy and  6 indeed it was delivered to us on March 10th, in  7 connection with Mr. James Morrison's evidence, and we  8 had not brought it forward for this man.  9 THE COURT:  Thank you.  10 MR. GRANT:  Before Mr. Rush and Mr. Sterritt recommences his  11 evidence, I have delivered this afternoon to both  12 defendants a binder of Gitksan sworn territorial  13 affidavits.  You may recall you made an order, and as  14 a matter of convenience, this totals 27 affidavits,  15 but 23 of them have not yet been exhibited, although  16 the 23rd one, Richard Benson's affidavit, was  17 exhibited in his commission evidence.  That commission  18 evidence I don't believe is yet exhibited.  I have not  19 seen it on the record.  So I would ask that these  20 affidavits, and I have a copy for the -- the original  21 affidavit for the exhibit and a copy for your lordship  22 as a bench copy, that these be marked, starting with  23 the Steve Robinson affidavit, with the next exhibit  24 number, and sequentially right up to number 23.  And  25 then in the index, I have referred to 24, 25, 26 and  26 27, all of which are now exhibits in the trial.  But I  27 have duplicated them here, just as a matter of  28 convenience for the court.  This includes all the  29 Gitksan territorial affidavits.  30 THE COURT:  All right.  What is your position, Mr. Goldie, have  31 you just received this?  32 MR. GOLDIE:  Yes, I got it a few minutes ago, my lord.  We will  33 have to go through these and determine which of these  34 we wish to examine on.  35 THE COURT:  Well, do you -- do you have any objection to them  36 being marked as exhibits now?  37 MR. GOLDIE:  No, if we do decide to cross-examine on them, they  38 will be exhibits anyway.  So I raise no objection at  39 this point.  4 0 THE COURT:  All right.  41 MR. MACAULAY:  Your lordship has already made an order that  42 these -- affidavits be accepted as evidence, prima  43 facie evidence, and we have a right to cross-examine  44 on them.  45 THE COURT:  It's just that if there was anything that was  46 particularly offensive or beyond the scope of --  47 MR. MACAULAY:  Well, we — I just got them a minute ago. 7030  J. Sterritt (For Plaintiffs)  In Chief by Mr. Rush  1 THE  2  3  4  5  6  7  MR.  THE  MR.  COURT: Yes. All right. Well then they can be the next  exhibits in the sequence that Mr. Grant described.  They will be —  GRANT:  What is the exact exhibit number?  REGISTRAR:  592.  GRANT:  I propose that the Steve Robinson affidavit be --  that the exhibit number, the 592 would be the  affidavit of Steve Robinson, and 593 would be the  affidavit of Mary Moore, and so on, right through the,  and I am referring to the index, so on right to  exhibit number 22, or 23,  COURT:  593 plus 23 more?  Or is it 25 more?  GRANT:  It would be 592, Steve Robinson, 592 plus 22 more.  GOLDIE:  Well, that brings it to Mr. Benson?  GRANT:  Yes, including Mr. Benson.  GOLDIE:  My suggestion is that you not include Mr. Benson  because his will be filed with his commission  evidence.  GRANT:  That's fine.  GOLDIE:  And I would also suggest that you perhaps not mark  Mr. -- is 22 the witness's affidavit?  GRANT:  Yes, we will deal with that.  Yes, yes.  GOLDIE:  Well, we will deal with that when we come to it in  the course of this examination.  GRANT:  It will be marked as an exhibit now or then.  I was  just trying to keep them in order.  COURT:  Mr. Grant's index would be wrong then.  GOLDIE:  I stem my tears.  I will have a submission, my  lord, to make with respect to Mr. Sterritt's  affidavit, since he is in the stand and I will have a  submission to make.  GRANT:  Perhaps his can be marked as for identification  then.  COURT:  It's 592 plus—  GRANT:  Plus 21.  COURT:  Plus 21.  GRANT:  That would be right to the end on the index to Neil  Sterritt.  And I would just propose that with respect  to number 17, the Sadie Howard translation affidavit,  that be marked not as a -- as the A letter after  Ernest Hyzims' affidavit.  REGISTRAR: You are making this very difficult for me, I  tell you.  GRANT:  Maybe I could just go through the record.  45 THE COURT:  We are going to be starting at 592, Mr. Robinson.  46 THE REGISTRAR:  And then 613.  47 THE COURT:  Then sequentially to 613, of which — one is being  9  10  11  12 THE  13 MR.  14 MR.  15 MR.  16 MR.  17  18  19 MR.  2 0 MR.  21  22 MR.  2 3 MR.  24  2 5 MR.  26  27 THE  2 8 MR.  29  30  31  32 MR.  33  34 THE  35 MR.  36 THE  37 MR.  38  39  40  41  42  43  4 4 MR  THE 7031  N. J. Sterritt (For Plaintiffs)  In Chief by Mr. Rush  1 deleted now, which one is that?  2 MR. GRANT:  It would be marked A under Ernest Hyzims.  3 THE REGISTRAR:  So his will be whatever number plus A?  4 MR. GRANT:  Yes.  And I can advise the court that the  5 translation affidavit of Alice Sampson, under Phillip  6 Turner, I will be delivering that tomorrow morning,  7 that will be marked as Exhibit "A" under Phillip  8 Turner.  9 THE COURT:  These are Gitksan affidavits, are they?  10 MR. GRANT:  These are.  11 MR. MACAULAY:  Are we marking Mr. Sterritt as 613 or are we not?  12 THE COURT:  Yes, for identification.  13  14 (EXHIBIT 592: AFFIDAVIT OF STEVE ROBINSON DATED JUNE 15, 1988)  15  16 (EXHIBIT 593: AFFIDAVIT OF MARY MOORE DATED MAY 10, 1988)  17  18 (EXHIBIT 594: AFFIDAVIT OF ART RISPALG DATED MAY 10, 1988)  19  20 (EXHIBIT 595: AFFIDAVIT OF DAVID GREEN DATED MAY 10, 1988)  21  22 (EXHIBIT 596: AFFIDAVIT OF THOMAS JACK DATED MAY 17, 1988)  23  24 (EXHIBIT 597: AFFIDAVIT OF SOLOMON JACK DATED MAY 13, 1988)  25  26 (EXHIBIT 598: AFFIDAVIT OF ROBERT JACKSON DATED MAY 25, 1988)  27  28 (EXHIBIT 599: AFFIDAVIT OF SAM MORRISON DATED MAY 10, 1988)  29  30 (EXHIBIT 600: AFFIDAVIT OF ABEL SAMPSON DATED MAY 13, 1988)  31  32 (EXHIBIT 601: AFFIDAVIT OF NEIL B. STERRITT DATED MAY 10, 1988)  33  34 (EXHIBIT 602: AFFIDAVIT OF WALTER WILSON DATED MAY 13, 1988)  35  36 (EXHIBIT 603: AFFIDAVIT OF JOSHUA MCLEAN DATED MAY 10, 1988)  37  38 (EXHIBIT 604: AFFIDAVIT OF GERALD GUNANOOT DATED MAY 11, 1988)  39  40 (EXHIBIT 605: AFFIDAVIT OF WALTER BLACKWATER DATED MAY 13, 1988)  41  42 (EXHIBIT 606: AFFIDAVIT OF KEN MULDOE DATED JUNE 9, 1988)  43  44 (EXHIBIT 607: AFFIDAVIT OF NERBERT WESLEY DATED JUNE 9, 1988)  45  46 (EXHIBIT 608: AFFIDAVIT OF ERNEST HYZIMS DATED JUNE 8, 1988)  47 7032  N. J. Sterritt (For Plaintiffs)  In Chief by Mr. Rush  1 (EXHIBIT 608-A:  AFFIDAVIT OF SADIE HOWARD DATED JUNE 8, 1988)  2  3 (EXHIBIT 609: AFFIDAVIT OF ABEL BROWN DATED JUNE 9, 1988)  4  5 (EXHIBIT 610: AFFIDAVIT OF JEFFERY HARRIS DATED JUNE 14, 1988)  6  7 (EXHIBIT 611: AFFIDAVIT OF FRED WALE DATED JUNE 20, 1988)  8  9 (EXHIBIT 612: AFFIDAVIT OF PHILLIP TURNER DATED JUNE 15, 1988)  10  11 (EXHIBIT  612-A: AFFIDAVIT OF ALICE SAMPSON DATED JUNE 15, 1988)  12  13 (EXHIBIT 613: AFFIDAVIT OF NEIL STERRIT DATED JUNE 17, 1988)  14  15 EXAMINATION IN CHIEF BY MR. RUSH:   (continued).  16  17 MR. RUSH:  18 Q   Now, Mr. Sterritt, I take you back to 1973, and you  19 indicated that you were asked to be an advisor of the  20 Tribal Council at that time.  21 A   Yes.  That's correct.  Myself and two other persons.  22 Q   I think you mentioned those other persons were Fred  23 Wale?  24 A   Yes, and Don Ryan.  25 Q   Now, you attended a meeting of the Tribal Council  26 sometime in 1973, at which you were asked to do some  27 things; is that right?  28 A   Yes.  2 9 Q   What happened then?  30 A   The first thing was they simply asked me to sit in on  31 a hiring committee and help to hire someone, but the  32 main point that the chiefs and the Tribal Council  33 asked the three of us to do was to prepare a  34 submission to further the land claim of the Gitksan-  35 Carrier, as it was called then, the Gitksan-  36 Wet'suwet'en, and to help out in putting together a  37 submission.  38 Q   And what was this submission intended to -- who was it  39 intended to be directed?  40 A   It was intended to be submitted to the federal  41 government.  42 Q   Now, I am just going to ask you to, if you can tell me  43 if you became further involved after that meeting in  44 land claim work?  45 A   Yes, I did.  46 Q   What, in what capacity?  47 A  Well, the one hereditary chief from Kispiox, Chris 7033  N. J. Sterritt (For Plaintiffs)  In Chief by Mr. Rush  Harris, Luus.  That was his chief's name, Luus?  Yes.  That's from the House of Luus, right?  Yes.  He asked me to come and visit him, and to -- he wanted  to show me some of the work that he had been doing, he  had been working with other hereditary chiefs, other  hereditary chiefs from the area had talked to me about  their interests and their concerns about aboriginal  title and rights, Fred Good was one person, Wallace  Morgan from Kitsegukla, and I sat down with Chris  Harris and he basically talked to me about his  concerns.  Were there, apart from Fred Good and -- did you say  Wallace Morgan?  Yes.  Were there other people that expressed to you their  concern about land claims?  Yes, there were.  Nii Kyap, David Gunanoot, he had  talked to me, Txaaxwok, James Morrison, he had made a  point of coming to where I was working and talking to  me about land claims and about what should be done.  The other persons, my uncle, Percy Sterritt, from the  House of Xsax gyoo, had talked to me, and my father.  What was Percy's Gitksan chief's name, if he had one?  His name was, or is, Wii Bawax.  That's 1595, my lord.  :  I didn't get his house.  Xsax gyoo.  31 THE TRANSLATOR:  That's 1585.  32 MR. RUSH:  Thank you.  33 Q   Were there any other persons whom you now recall  34 were -- had approached you concerning the land claim  35 at that time?  36 A   Steve Robinson, Spookw, from the house of Spookw, had  37 talked to me.  There were others, I don't recall their  38 names at this time.  39 Q   Now, were you aware of -- were you aware of any events  40 which had occurred within the Gitksan and Wet'suwet'en  41 community which led the people that you have mentioned  42 to come to talk with you?  43 A  Well, in 1973 and '74, there was a major focus on the  44 northwest and, in particular, the territories of the  45 Gitksan and Wet'suwet'en, of economic development, of  46 increased logging, of hydro development, and -- but in  47 particular the logging, the hereditary chiefs were  1  2  Q  3  A  4  Q  5  A  6  Q  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  Q  16  17  A  18  Q  19  20  A  21  22  23  24  25  26  Q  27  A  28  MR.  RUSH:  29  THE  COURT  30  MR.  RUSH: 7034  N. J. Sterritt (For Plaintiffs)  In Chief by Mr. Rush  1 concerned about the increased logging activity in the  2 area at that time.  3 Q   Now were there any events which had occurred outside  4 of the Gitksan and Wet'suwet'en community at that time  5 which led to the hereditary chiefs approaching you  6 concerning the land claim?  7 A   Yes, in 1973, the Calder case, the Calder decision had  8 come down, and the federal government had initiated a  9 policy to negotiate land claims with tribal groups in  10 Canada, and the Nisga'a were proceeding to negotiation  11 and the Gitksan and Wet'suwet'en hereditary chiefs now  12 had a vehicle, had a way to proceed with negotiations  13 and wanted to further their aboriginal title and  14 rights, they wanted to further their land claim.  15 Prior to that there had been no avenue and while the  16 hereditary chiefs had been expressing their concern  17 for sometime, they wanted to do more and, as I  18 mentioned, Chris Harris had been meeting with  19 different people in the community, he had informed me  20 of this and whenever they met, they wanted to advance  21 their land claims.  But now there was this vehicle  22 through the Office Of Native Claims policy and the  23 setting up of the Office Of Native Claims in Ottawa.  24 Q   This office of native claims in Ottawa, was that an  25 office established by the Government of Canada?  2 6 A   Yes, it was set up by the federal government.  27 Q   Is this the office through which the negotiations  2 8 between the federal government and Indian groups in  29 Canada was to occur?  3 0 A   Yes, it was.  31 Q   Now, in your meeting with Chris Harris, did you,  32 following that meeting, begin to do some work of your  33 own on the land claims?  34 A   Yes, I did.  I began to gather information, talked to  35 hereditary chiefs to learn more about the boundaries  36 of the Gitksan and Wet'suwet'en, the Gitksan in  37 particular at that time, and to become more familiar  38 with it.  39 Q   Did Chris Harris show a map to you?  40 A   Yes, he did.  41 Q   And, in general terms, I will be coming to this a  42 little later, but in general terms what was this map  43 of?  44 A   It was a, as I remember, it was a -- it's a map that  45 sshows the territories of the hereditary chiefs for  46 the villages, in particular, of Kisgagas, Kuldo and  47 some of the territories of Kisgagas. 7035  N. J. Sterritt (For Plaintiffs)  In Chief by Mr. Rush  1 THE COURT:  I am sorry, the village of, I thought you said  2 Kisgagas and Kuldo?  3 A  And Kispiox.  4 THE COURT:  And Kispiox.  Thank you.  5 MR. RUSH:  6 Q   Now, what was the period that -- of time that you met  7 with Chris Harris?  I suppose I should ask you if you  8 met with him more than once?  9 A   Yes, I did.  I had met with him several times when he  10 just talked to me casually and then another time when  11 he showed me this map, which was later in 1974.  12 Q   And now, in 1974, did you -- were you given any  13 direction concerning preparation of a map regarding  14 the Gitksan hereditary chiefs' territories?  15 A   Yes, the hereditary chiefs wanted a map done showing  16 their external boundaries, and in preparation for  17 submission to the federal government.  18 Q   And can you recall now some of the hereditary chiefs  19 who were involved instructing you?  20 A   Yes.  Steve Morrison, Wii elaast, of the House of Wii  21 elaast.  22 MR. RUSH:  I think we have the spelling W-I-I, E-L-A-A-S-T.  23 A   Spookw, Steve Robinson, who I have already mentioned,  24 the -- Peter Wilson, Haimadam from the House of  25 Niikyap.  26 Q   Yes?  27 A   Jessie Sterritt, Wii goob'1.  28 THE COURT:  I am sorry.  That is a Gitksan name.  Thank you.  29 A   Jessie Sterritt.  30 THE TRANSLATOR:  Haimadam 1602.  31 MR. RUSH:  1602?  32 THE TRANSLATOR:  Yes.  33 MR. RUSH:  Thank you.  34 Q   Other persons?  35 A   Sophia Mowat, I don't recall her name.  Henry Wright  36 from the House of Wii gaak, Joshua McLean from the  37 House of Nii kyap, Sammy Gunanoot, the brother of  38 David Gunanoot, David Gunanoot -- I already mentioned  39 him.  David Milton, Ts'aa'uulst is his name.  40 THE TRANSLATOR:  T-S' A-A'U-U-L-S-T.  41 A   Gwagl'lo, Ernie Hyzims from the House of Gwagl'lo.  42 MR. RUSH:  43 Q   Yes, any others that you recall at that time?  44 A   Ben McKenzie.  45 Q   I think you told us he is Luutkudziiwus?  46 A   Yes.  Mary McKenzie, Gyolugyet.  The Morgans from  47 Kitwanga from the house of Axtii hix, Wallace and 7036  N. J. Sterritt (For Plaintiffs)  In Chief by Mr. Rush  1 Jeffery.  2 Q   Was Jeffery Morgan Axtii hix?  3 A   I believe his brother died and then he took it in that  4 period,  5 Q   Now following that, those instructions from the  6 hereditary chiefs, were there meetings that you had in  7 1974 or 75 regarding what they had asked you to do  8 regarding the land claim?  9 A   Yes, there was a meeting in January of 1975, it was a  10 major meeting, and it was fully attended by  hereditary  11 chiefs from all of the villages and I believe with the  12 Wet'suwet'en as well, and this was in Kitwanga, and at  13 that meeting the hereditary chiefs instructed three  14 persons to put together a map and to go to work on  15 lands claims, and when I say go to work, I mean, it  16 was part-time, it wasn't -- there was no pay for it,  17 basically they were delegating members of the  18 community to get to work, however they could to put  19 together a map.  And --  20 Q   Who were those other people?  21 A  Well, it was Allan Mason, a young fellow who married  22 one of the girls from Kitsegukla, he was from Bella  23 Bella, and the other person was Gary Patsy from the  2 4           house of Dawamuxw.  2 5 Q   Dawamuxw?  26 A   Yes, and myself.  27 Q   What were you instructed to do?  28 A  We were instructed to, as I say, to do a map showing  29 the external boundaries of the territories and to do  30 any other work that was necessary to advance the land  31 claim of the Gitksan and Wet'suwet'en hereditary  32 chiefs.  33 Q   Were there hereditary chiefs present at this meeting  34 at Kitwanga?  35 A   The meeting was -- there was at least 100 hereditary  36 chiefs there and I would say that 99 percent of them  37 were hereditary chiefs.  It was a major meeting with  38 hereditary chiefs who were very concerned and wanted  39 something to be done.  40 Q   The names that you have mentioned earlier as to people  41 who had come to you and talked to you about the land  42 claims, were those people some of the people who were  43 present at this meeting?  44 A   Yes, most if not all of them attended as well as many,  4 5 many more.  46 Q   And were you still employed at this time with the Ksan  47 as a project director of the Ksan Village? 7037  1  A  2  3  4  5  Q  6  7  8  9  A  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  Q  19  A  20  21  22  Q  23  24  A  25  Q  26  27  28  29  30  A  31  32  33  34  35  36  Q  37  A  38  Q  39  40  A  41  42  43  44  Q  45  46  A  47  Q  N. J. Sterritt (For Plaintiffs)  In Chief by Mr. Rush  Yes, I was.  Anything that I did in this, on the,  under the instructions of the hereditary chiefs was  done in evenings or on weekends, it was done in my  spare time.  All right.  And following the meeting in January of  1975, where Al Mason and Gary Patsy and yourself were  requested to put to work on a map, what did you do,  what did the three of you do?  We went and met with groups of hereditary chiefs, and  asked them to -- to tell us what the external  boundaries were around the Gitksan and Wet'suwet'en  territories.  We, in other words, we would meet  with -- in Kispiox, sit down and they would describe  an area that they were familiar with, we would meet in  Kitwanga and do a similar exercise, we would do the  same in Kitsegukla and proceeded to develop the  external limits of the Gitksan territories.  And at those meetings, who were present?  The hereditary chiefs were the persons who were  present as well as persons that they felt they might  need from their house to assist them.  All right.  And following that, the period that you  are talking about is in 1975, is it?  Yes.  And were there any other larger meetings of the kinds  that occurred in Kitwanga in 1975 that you recall, in  which you were given direction, that is to say that  you and Gary mason and Gary -- excuse me,  Al Mason  and Gary Patsy were given direction?  In 1975, a meeting was held at which hereditary chiefs  gave direction to proceed or formalized their, the  direction to advance the territories of the Gitksan.  The Gitksan, hereditary chiefs.  At that meeting, the  hereditary chiefs framed a resolution directing the  Tribal Council to work on the land claim.  All right.  And did you begin that process?  Yes.  And what happened after the July, 1975 meeting, what  did you do?  I, along with Gary Patsy and Al, we began to review  the trapline maps in the Department of Indian Affairs  and we talked to hereditary chiefs to define the  external boundaries.  Did you have any further contact with Chris Harris,  Luus?  Chris Harris died in January of 1975.  Did you have his map available to you and did you use 703?  N. J. Sterritt (For Plaintiffs)  In Chief by Mr. Rush  1 it, was it of any value to you?  2 A   Before Chris Harris died, he knew the work that I was  3 doing and he handed it over to me and I did a tracing  4 of that map, and so after he died, I had that copy.  5 The tracing that I did I showed to him while he was in  6 the hospital, just a few days before he passed away.  7 Q   Now, at this time were you still the project director  8 at Ksan?  9 A   Yes, I was.  10 Q   And in terms of the direction that you were given to  11 develop a map in the period of 1975 through to 1977, I  12 picked 1977 arbitrarily for the moment, can you tell  13 us what you did in that period?  14 A   The main task, the main job was to try to develop a  15 map that reflected the external boundaries of the  16 Gitksan and Wet'suwet'en territories, I talked to  17 individual hereditary chiefs, I talked to small groups  18 of hereditary chiefs, I reviewed some of the written  19 material, in particular the maps at the Department of  20 Indian affairs, which showed the -- which were  21 trapline maps.  I basically started to develop the  22 external boundaries, tried to determine the external  23 boundary and I reviewed that with hereditary chiefs.  24 Q   And in the period '75 to '77, was this a full-time or  25 a part-time activity on your part?  26 A   It was a, very much a part-time activity.  I was doing  27 other things.  Sometime during that period I resigned  28 from Ksan, I don't recall the exact date but I  29 resigned and worked on my house and then took the  30 carving course.  So even during that period I was  31 doing this work during my spare time.  32 Q   Did your position change in 1977 in relation to land  33 claims, and the land claims work that you were doing  34 on a part-time basis?  35 A   Yes, it did.  In June of 1977, I was hired to become  36 the director of land claims for the Tribal Council.  37 Q   And what was the -- what were your instructions as you  38 understood them at that time?  39 A   The hereditary chiefs had said that they wanted a map  40 and a declaration presented to the Office Of Native  41 Claims, to the federal government, to begin the  42 process of resolving of negotiating their aboriginal  43 title and aboriginal rights.  The first thing that was  44 done in that by me was to prepare a brief that was  45 submitted to Ottawa in July of 1977, and then to  46 organize a meeting with the minister of Indian  47 Affairs, to present a map showing the external limits 7039  N. J. Sterritt (For Plaintiffs)  In Chief by Mr. Rush  1 of the Gitksan and Wet'suwet'en territories, and a  2 declaration and the brief, as I say, was submitted in  3 July, the minister of Indian affairs wanted to simply  4 have us send him the map and declaration, the  5 hereditary chiefs refused.  The hereditary chiefs said  6 the minister had to come to our communities to receive  7 the map and the declaration from the hereditary chiefs  8 (themselves.  9 Q   And did in presentation of the map and declaration  10 occur on November 7th, 1977?  11 A   Yes, it did.  12 THE COURT:  I am sorry, November —  13 MR. RUSH:  7th, 1977.  14 Q   Just before we go to that, I just want to ask you some  15 questions about about your position as land claims  16 director for the Tribal Council?  17 A   Yes.  18 Q   I think you said that you took this, took up this  19 position in June of 1977?  20 A   Yes, I did.  21 Q   Can you -- was this the first time that this position  22 had been filled, was there a position such as the  23 director of land claims prior to June of 1977?  24 A   No, there was not.  25 Q   Now, was it in the nature of the Gitksan and  26 Wet'suwet'en society, in the nature of the Gitksan and  27 Wet'suwet'en hereditary chiefs, to work through a body  28 such as a land claims office?  29 A   No, it wasn't.  The hereditary chiefs worked in a --  30 MR. GOLDIE:  I am going to object to that, my lord.  As I said,  31 this witness has stated he was under instructions on  32 his examination for discovery that he did not know the  33 history of the Gitksan.  34 THE COURT:  It depends, I suppose, the objection depends on the  35 definition of history, I suppose, does it?  36 MR. GOLDIE:  Well, I suppose so.  But it just simply isn't the  37 best evidence.  He is simply saying what other people  38 have either told him or what he has learned second  39 hand, that's my understanding of the position that he  40 took on his examination for discovery.  And if that's  41 the case, I think with all respect, we shouldn't be  42 hearing it second hand.  43 MR. RUSH:  Well, with all respect, that is a very exaggerated  44 overstatement of the position of this witness at the  45 examination for discovery.  The point that my friend  46 referred to earlier was a question of the history of  47 houses, the history of adaawk and he said he didn't 7040  N. J. Sterritt (For Plaintiffs)  In Chief by Mr. Rush  1 know them in detail.  Here what I am asking the  2 witness is from his knowledge of the Gitksan and  3 Wet'suwet'en society, was it in the nature of such a  4 society to have a land claims office.  The -- it's  5 clear that Mr. Sterritt is a part of the Gitksan and  6 Wet'suwet'en society as we are members of, presumably,  7 the -- a mixed society of non-Indian people, I suppose  8 it's pretty difficult to define our own society, but  9 we can certainly define elements of the society and we  10 can make comments on all aspects of it from a range  11 from its governmental structures to its laws.  And I  12 see nothing problematic, either in terms of what my  13 friend comments on or in terms of this witness's  14 knowledge to be able to give, for this witness to give  15 evidence about this question.  And I see no -- nothing  16 to prevent him from giving evidence on the subject.  17 THE COURT:  Well, I see no difficulty in the witness describing  18 the state of affairs with which he had personal  19 involvement.  To go beyond that does call into  20 question, does it not, the admissibility of what other  21 people told him what happened before he became  22 involved?  23 MR. RUSH:  If the evidence —  24 THE COURT:  At the moment, I am perhaps not doing justice to the  25 objection, but it seems to me that apart from the  26 question of the discovery, and consequences flowing  27 from it, which I am not sure that I can pay any  28 attention to unless I have the actual discovery before  29 me, and I examine the words that were used.  So, apart  30 from the discovery, though, is the ordinary hearsay  31 rule not the governing authority?  32 MR. RUSH:  If this is a hearsay objection, if my friend or your  33 lordship raises a hearsay objection, then I say that  34 Mr. Sterritt lives within a society and has a basis  35 for understanding the society because of his being  36 there.  I suppose at worst we can say that he returned  37 from a 12-year, yes, a 12-year absence from this  38 society in 1973 and this is something that's happening  39 in 1974.  So that his knowledge, most immediately, was  40 conditioned by three years of direct contact with his  41 community.  But, in my submission, my lord, it's not a  42 question of his gathering knowledge directly from  43 other sources and therefore his information is second  44 hand or third hand, it's a function of his being and  45 living and experiencing a society about which he can  4 6 make comment.  47 THE COURT:  Well, seems to me, Mr. Rush, that that is extending 7041  N. J. Sterritt (For Plaintiffs)  In Chief by Mr. Rush  1 the test of admissibility substantially.  I don't want  2 to get into the discovery, but for that reason, I am  3 looking at hearsay.  How can he tell me what people  4 told him was the situation relating to the  5 organization of land claims prior to the time when he  6 got involved in it?  He can say, when I arrived there  7 was this structure or there wasn't any structure or  8 various people were doing various things.  Can he go  9 beyond that?  10 MR. RUSH:  Well, he can say, surely, that he participated in the  11 structure, in the society, in the system, and that  12 the -- in this case, the land claims office was  13 established.  14 THE COURT:  Yes, he can certainly say all of those things.  15 MR. RUSH:  Then he can say, now what is that, the establishment  16 of that office, what is that in relationship to the  17 society that you know?  I see nothing problematic  18 about that.  19 THE COURT:  The society that he knows, you are talking about the  20 larger Gitksan community?  21 MR. RUSH:  Yes.  22 THE COURT:  I get the sense that the burden of his evidence is  23 going to be that this was a new position, there hadn't  24 been such a person previously.  He can certainly say  25 that "When I arrived I was the first director of land  26 claims" and I think that's what he said.  Can he go  27 back and say, "but before my time, when I wasn't even  28 living around here", various people were, "told me  29 they were doing various things"?  30 MR. RUSH:  It's not that question that I am asking, my lord.  I  31 am not asking what was the situation before you,  32 although I was intending to go into that, now I think  33 I have some guidelines on the subject.  The question I  34 was asking him was from your knowledge of the Gitksan  35 and Wet'suwet'en society, is a position like the one  36 that was established one that was in the nature of the  37 system that you knew?  And surely this witness, even  38 if he has a limitation of three years of experience,  39 and I say he has the experience from 1973 to the  40 present, and I, in fact I argue that the experience of  41 his entire life, to be able to comment on that.  42 THE COURT:  I see, at the moment, no objection, subject to what  43 Mr. Goldie says in the witness saying from the time of  44 my involvement with this matter, and at the time, or  45 more particularly at the time when I became director  46 of land claims, I, if such is the case, I saw no  47 evidence of any structure such as was being set up 7042  N. J. Sterritt (For Plaintiffs)  In Chief by Mr. Rush  1 when I became director of land claims.  Surely he can  2 say that and I doubt if your friend would object to  3 that.  But I think we do run into the hearsay rule if  4 he starts telling us that other people told him about  5 various things, either we didn't have this before or  6 we had it and it didn't work or we had an  7 unsatisfactory former director, if that was the case,  8 seems to me that that would be hearsay and under the  9 limits, we don't allow that.  You don't disagree with  10 what I have said.  Mr. Goldie?  11 MR. GOLDIE:  No, anything, if he wants speak to anything factual  12 from 1975 on, I have no objection.  13 THE COURT:  The only point that seems to be dividing counsel is  14 whether the witness can go beyond that and say what  15 the position was during the 12 years he wasn't  16 manager.  17 MR. GOLDIE:  If we were to get into that then I would go back to  18 the discovery because I was stopped on the discovery,  19 questioning the witness about ownership and  20 jurisdiction and the rights of the hereditary chiefs  21 and it seems to me that once we go beyond 1973 we are  22 into that area that on the examination for discovery,  23 it was -- objection was taken and the witness declined  24 to answer those questions.  25 THE COURT:  Let's see how we get along on that basis, Mr. Rush.  2 6 MR. RUSH:  27 Q   Mr. Sterritt, I think you said that the land claims  28 office of the Tribal Council was first established in  29 June of 1977?  30 A   Yes.  31 Q   Is that right?  32 A   That's right.  33 Q   And you were its first director; is that right?  34 A   Yes.  35 Q   And at that time the Tribal Council, was it an  36 incorporated or unincorporated body?  37 A   It was an unincorporated body at that time.  38 Q   And in terms of what you were to do, as the director  39 of land claims, can you tell his lordship what the  40 object was of your being a director?  41 A  My first task I have already described, which was to  42 do the brief, do the map, and along with the  43 hereditary chiefs to do a declaration, which would be  44 presented to the minister.  Assuming that that phase  45 was successful, which the brief, the purpose of the  46 brief was to demonstrate to the federal government  47 that the Gitksan and Wet'suwet'en hereditary chiefs 7043  N. J. Sterritt (For Plaintiffs)  In Chief by Mr. Rush  1 had a valid, comprehensive claim.  Assuming that that  2 could be demonstrated, that would set the Gitksan and  3 Wet'suwet'en hereditary chiefs on to the next phase,  4 which would be research leading to negotiations of the  5 aboriginal title and rights of the Gitksan and  6 Wet'suwet'en hereditary chiefs.  And, so once we did  7 have that presentation, in November 7th, 1977, the  8 claim subsequently was acknowledged as being,  9 acknowledged as being a valid comprehensive claim by  10 the federal government and that qualified us to move  11 to the next stage.  12 Q   You are just a little bit ahead of me now.  I am still  13 dealing with the beginning of the land claims office  14 in June of 1977.  Was there an office in fact?  15 A   There was -- I was told by Billie Blackwater,  16 Baskyelaxha, from Kispiox that I could set up an  17 office in the Kispiox Band Council office in Kispiox.  18 Q   Were you the sole person of this office?  19 A   Yes, I was.  20 Q   Were there administrative tasks that you were involved  21 in?  22 A   Yes.  I -- the hereditary chiefs encountered a dilemma  23 that summer, which involved the office and then there  24 were the administrative matters of setting up  25 acquiring files, beginning to acquire files, that is,  26 doing research, to develop the brief and in meeting  27 with hereditary chiefs to do the map.  28 Q   For whom did you do these things that you have just  29 mentioned?  30 A   It was for the -- these were done on behalf of the  31 hereditary chiefs.  32 Q   And you said you encountered a dilemma in that summer,  33 what was that?  34 A   The department of Fisheries and Oceans had launched a  35 major what they themselves classified as "the  36 round-up", and the round-up was a -- resulted in  37 charges to 23 of our people on the fishery, for  38 various alleged offenses, infractions of the  39 regulations as they saw it, and these people were  40 charged and they, the hereditary chiefs instructed  41 myself to help to defend these people, to do something  42 about the charges that had been laid and that was what  4 3 we did.  44 Q   Okay.  Now, just before we leave this subject, was the  45 establishment of the land claims office, was that in  46 any way connected with an outside requirement, that is  47 a requirement from outside the Gitksan and 7044  N. J. Sterritt (For Plaintiffs)  In Chief by Mr. Rush  1 Wet'suwet'en community?  2 A   Yes, it was.  The office of native claims required  3 that an authorized body submit -- the terms of  4 reference to qualify as having a valid comprehensive  5 claim and the authorized body in this case was the  6 Tribal Council but they required that it be  7 incorporated, that it could not receive funds unless  8 it was incorporated.  So, the hereditary chiefs and  9 the band councils formed this, formed the incorporated  10 society for the Tribal Council and the reason for that  11 was that they would, if you qualified as having a  12 valid comprehensive claim, then you also could qualify  13 for loan funding in order to do the research.  14 Q   I am going to be coming to that.  I just want to ask  15 you now some questions about the Tribal Council, and  16 the Tribal Council as you knew it from, I guess, about  17 19, late 1973, to 1977, you, I think you told us who  18 the president and the executive and the board of  19 directors was, when you first encountered the Tribal  20 Council in 1973.  In 1977 do you recall who the  21 president was, if it had one at that time?  22 A   The president at that time was Ray Jones.  23 Q   And I think you have told us that the body was, the  24 Tribal Council at that time was not incorporated?  25 A   That's correct.   I think there was a turning point,  26 later, Billie Blackwater became the a president of the  27 Tribal Council.  28 Q   In 1977?  29 A   I believe so, yes.  30 Q   And are you able to say, let us say in 1977, what you,  31 what the duties of the Tribal Council were?  32 A   The Tribal Council, the hereditary chiefs were  33 concerned about the Tribal Council, they wanted a body  34 that would act on their behalf.  The duties of the  35 Tribal Council to that point were largely service  36 oriented, programme oriented, carrying out service  37 oriented activities in the villages, in the  38 communities, and dealing with Department of Indian  39 Affairs budgets, reacting to some of the initiatives  40 of the provincial government and the federal  41 government.  And when I say initiatives I mean in  42 terms of programmes and at the larger level on a  43 political level in terms of some of the economic  44 activities that were designed for the northwest or  45 enforcement by Department of Fisheries and Oceans or  46 by B. C. Fish and Wildlife, and the Tribal Council had  47 been speaking out on that.  But the functions that 7045  1  2  3  Q  4  5  A  6  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  Q  14  A  15  16  17  18  Q  19  20  21  22  A  23  24  25  26  27  28  Q  29  30  A  31  Q  32  A  33 MR.  RUSH  34  35  Q  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  A  47  Q  N. J. Sterritt (For Plaintiffs)  In Chief by Mr. Rush  they carried out primarily were in service-oriented  areas.  Now, in 1977, at some point in '77, did the role of  the Tribal Council change?  Yes.  The hereditary chiefs saw the Tribal Council as  being their organization, they wanted the Tribal  Council to coordinate the land claim, provide  political voice on their behalf -- they saw it as --  they felt a need for that organization to function on  their behalf in furthering the aboriginal title and  rights of the Gitksan and Wet'suwet'en hereditary  chiefs.  When did the change occur?  It -- the change occurred in the, I guess officially,  or publicly, on November 7th, '77 but it was evolving  up to that point and became a -- it continued after  that point as well, to a certain extent.  November '77 is the date of the presentation to the  minister of Indian affairs, was it at that time that a  decision was made to alter the structure of the Tribal  Council?  Just subsequent to, in terms of the actual structure  of the organization, it was subsequent to that when  the -- as a result of the requirement of the federal  government to incorporate and the alteration was in  terms of the defined membership within the Societies  Act.  All right.  Is it the case that the Tribal Council  became an incorporated association?  Yes.  Did that happen early in 1978?  Yes, it did.  I wonder if I can show Mr. Sterritt, please, Exhibit  344.  I am showing you, Mr. Sterritt, a document which is  Exhibit 344 and entitled Certified Copy of Documents  File with Registrar of Companies for the Gitksan -  Wet'suwet'en Tribal Council Association.  Now,  contained within this package of material is a  document, I think about four pages in, my lord, the  document is numbered on the lower right hand corner by  page.  This is the constitution, form two, under the  Societies Act.  And you will notice on the 7th page  there is a place where your name appears; is that  right?  Yes.  All right.  Now, I am sorry, let me direct you to page 7046  N. J. Sterritt (For Plaintiffs)  In Chief by Mr. Rush  1 six of this document, dated January 24th, 1978, and  2 again your name appears on page six here; is that  3 right?  4 A   Yes, as a witness.  5 Q   Is this what you remember the constitution of the  6 Gitksan-Carrier Tribal Council Association to be at  7 that time?  8 A   Yes, it is.  9 Q   And does this represent the incorporation of the  10 Gitksan-Carrier Tribal Council Association as a  11 society?  12 A   Yes.  13 Q   Now, on page one of that document, but page four of  14 the exhibit, the purposes are set out and I just ask  15 you to review those first and ask if those purposes  16 are those which you know to be the purposes of the  17 association?  18 THE COURT:  Could he do that during the adjournment?  19 MR. RUSH:  Yes, he could.  20  21  22        (PROCEEDINGS ADJOURNED FOR SHORT RECESS)  23  24  25  26  27 I hereby certify the foregoing to be  28 a true and accurate transcript of the  29 proceedings herein to the best of my  30 skill and ability.  31  32  33  34  35  36 Wilf Roy  37 Official Reporter  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  4 7 (PROCEEDINGS RESUMED PURSUANT TO ADJOURNMENT) 7047  N.J. Sterritt (For Plfs.)  In Chief by Mr. Rush  1  2 THE COURT:  Mr. Rush.  3 MR. RUSH:  4 Q   Mr. Sterritt, you've had an opportunity of examining  5 Exhibit 344?  6 A   Yes, I have.  7 Q   And I was directing in particular your attention to  8 the constitution, and that was dated January 24th,  9 1978, and to the purposes of the association.  10 A   Yes.  11 Q   You recognize those to be the purposes of the  12 association at that time?  13 A   Yes, I do.  14 Q   And what led to these purposes being placed in the  15 constitution?  16 A   The directions of the Gitksan Wet'suwet'en hereditary  17 chiefs that the tribal council on their behalf take a  18 major role in achieving resolution of the Gitksan  19 Wet'suwet'en land claim, and that is particularly  20 identified in purpose C, to achieve just resolution of  21 the land claims and aboriginal land issues of the  22 Gitksan and Carrier people, Carrier being  23 Wet'suwet'en.  24 Q   If you'll turn to page three of the constitution of  25 January 24th, '78, which is page six of the document,  26 applicants for incorporation are listed there, and the  27 first is William Blackwater Sr..  Was William  28 Blackwater Sr. a hereditary chief?  29 A   Yes.  30 Q   Is William Blackwater Sr. still living?  31 A   Yes, he is.  32 Q   And who is he?  I should say what is his hereditary  33 chief's name?  34 A   His name is Baskyelaxha from the House of Baskyelaxha.  35 Q   And the second person's name named there is Perry  36 Sampson.  I think you've mentioned Perry Sampson in  37 your testimony.  Is he a hereditary chief?  38 A   Yes.  His name is Djogo Gaak from the House of  39 Gutginuxw of Kispiox.  40 THE REGISTRAR:  That's 1589.  41 MR. RUSH:  Perry Sampson is 1589.  Thank you.  42 THE REGISTRAR:  And Baskyelaxha is number two on the plaintiffs.  43 MR. RUSH:  Thank you.  44 Q   Alfred Joseph?  45 A  Alfred is Gisdaywa.  He's a wolf chief from the  4 6 Wet'suwet'en.  47 THE REGISTRAR:  1610. 7048  N.J. Sterritt (For Plfs.)  In Chief by Mr. Rush  1 MR. RUSH:  2 Q I note Garry Patsey's name there.  Gary Patsey, did he  3 have, or does he have a Gitksan name?  4 A Yes, he does.  His name is Galisk'alan from the House  5 of Delgamuuwk, which is a fireweed house in Kispiox.  6 Q Can you give us the name again?  Gali --  7 A Galisk'alan.  8 THE TRANSLATOR:  It's G-A-L-I-S-K-'-A-L-A-N.  9 MR. RUSH:  10 Q And your -- your name is there -- is located next.  I  11 want to turn now, Mr. Sterritt, if you will, to -- Mr.  12 Sterritt, do you have a page -- I'm asking you to  13 direct your attention to the lower right hand corner  14 of page 153, and turn --  15 A Yes.  16 Q And on that page is there a list of first directors of  17 the Gitksan-Carrier Tribal Council?  18 A Yes, there is.  19 Q And that's dated January 24th, 1978.  20 A Yes.  21 Q And do you recognize the names of the list of first  22 directors that are shown on this page?  23 A Yes, I do.  24 Q William Blackwater you've referred us to.  James Angus  25 Jr..  Does James Angus Jr. hold a Gitksan name?  26 A Yes, he is a chief.  His name is Wii elaast.  27 THE TRANSLATOR:  That's 72.  28 A He's from Kispiox.  2 9 MR. RUSH:  30 Q And Alice Jefferies?  31 A Alice Jefferies is Miluulak from the House of Miluulak  32 from Kisgagas.  33 Q And Richard Morgan?  34 A He's the name I gave earlier this morning, Hlgu  35 Tsetsawit from the House of Guxsan in Kitsegukla.  36 Q And Barney Morgan?  37 A Yes, I'm not familiar with his name, Gitksan name.  38 Q And Walter Joseph, do you know Walter Joseph?  39 A Yes, I do.  I don't know his Gitksan name.  Both of  40 those -- both of them are chiefs though.  41 Q And Daniel Michell?  42 A Yes.  Daniel is Wigetimstochol from Moricetown, and  43 the Wet'suwet'en.  4 4 MR. RUSH:  71, my lord.  45 Q And Doris Michell?  4 6 A I don't know her Wet'suwet'en name.  47 Q Kenneth Russell? 7049  N.J. Sterritt (For Plfs.)  In Chief by Mr. Rush  1 A   He is wolf from Kitwancool.  I don't know his name  2 either.  3 Q   And what about Raymond Jones?  4 A   Raymond Jones is Wadii.  He's a chief from Kitsegukla.  5 Q   Elijah Turner?  6 A   Elijah Turner is Wii Yagaa deets, and he is a chief in  7 the House of Hax bagwootxw.  8 MR. RUSH:   Hax bagwootxw is 34.  9 THE TRANSLATOR:  Which did you want?  10 MR. RUSH:  Just the name of Elijah Turner.  I think you gave it  11 to us this morning.  12 THE TRANSLATOR:  W-I-I Y-A-G-A-A D-E-E-T-S.  13 MR. RUSH:  14 Q   Now, I think you've -- well, just before I go to that,  15 Andrew George?  16 A   He is -- his current name is Tsibasaa.  I don't know  17 what his name was then.  I don't recall it.  From the  18 House of Smogelgem, Wet'suwet'en house.  19 Q   And I think you mentioned that James Morrison, Perry  20 Sampson and Alfred Joseph have given their Gitksan  21 names and Wet'suwet'en name in the case of Alfred  22 Joseph?  23 A   Yes, I have.  24 Q   Ardith Wilson, is Ardith a person holding a Gitksan  25 hereditary chief's name?  2 6 A   I don't know what her name is.  27 Q   Okay.  Now, Mr. Sterritt, I wonder if you would just  28 turn to page 144 on the bottom right hand corner.  29 THE COURT:  140?  30 MR. RUSH:  144.  31 Q   Now, this is the filing of the annual report of the  32 Gitksan-Carrier Tribal Council listing its directors  33 in 1981.  It was received January the 26th, 1981.  I  34 just ask you to scan your eye over that list, and if  35 you can tell me whether or not the names in here, many  36 of the names are the same as the one as are contained  37 on the earlier list of 1978, can you confirm whether  38 or not these are hereditary chiefs?  39 A   Yes, they are.  A number of them are the same.  Those  40 that are additional are Martha Brown, Ax yawaasxw,  41 from the House of Gyetm galdoo.  42 Q   That -- there is a Martha Brown who's Kliiyemlaxhaa.  43 Is that a different Martha Brown?  44 A   This is a different Martha Brown.  Martha —  45 Kliiyemlaxhaa is wolf, and this Martha is Lax See'l,  46 or frog.  47 Q   All right.  Any other names? 7050  N.J. Sterritt (For Plfs.)  In Chief by Mr. Rush  1 A   Guy Morgan is, I believe, from the House of Luuxoon  2 from Kitwancool.  Kenneth Russell once again we've  3 already mentioned.  Clifford Sampere is from the House  4 of Nii kyap.  I'm not familiar with the name or the  5 house of Leonard Austin.  Richard Benson wasn't on the  6 other page, but we have mentioned him.  He is wolf.  7 He's a chief, 'Kla'ee yuu, and the rest are on the  8 other page.  9 MR. RUSH:  Okay.  I'm going to ask you now to turn, if you will,  10 to the filing.  I believe, my lord, that the list that  11 is appended to the filing received on January 26th,  12 1981 which is on page 144 contains the directors in  13 part as a result of the annual general meeting in  14 1978, and I did not make that clear in my initial  15 question.  16 Q   On the front page -- of that filing, Mr. Sterritt, on  17 page 143 there are other directors named there, and I  18 think you mentioned wo of them, Bill Blackwater and  19 Alice Jefferies, already.  There is an addition, Mel  20 Bevin and Geraldine MacDougall, on that page.  Are  21 they Gitksan people?  22 A   Geraldine MacDougall is from the House of Spookw in  23 Gitanmaax.  She is Gitksan.  Mel Bevin is Kitselaas.  24 He's from the Tsimshian nation.  He's from the village  25 near Terrace.  26 Q   And I want to refer you now to the filing of 1979,  27 which is to be found at page 132.  28 A   Yes.  29 Q   And I would ask you if you would just review that  30 filing both on page 132 and 133 and confirm if the  31 names that are listed there are Gitksan or  32 Wet'suwet'en hereditary chiefs?  33 A  All of those persons on page 133 are Gitksan or  34 Wet'suwet'en hereditary chiefs.  Garry Patsey was  35 mentioned before.  Wallace Danes is from the house of  36 Luutkudziiwus.  Larry Moore is 'Niitsxw.  That's a  37 Giis gaast (phonetic) house from Kitsegukla, and  38 fireweed house from Kitsegukla.  39 MR. RUSH:  I just want a spelling for that 'Niitsxw.  40 A   'Niitsxw.  41 THE TRANSLATOR:  '-N-I-I-T-S-X-W.  42 A   Glen Williams wasn't on there before.  He is -- at  43 that time his name was Ts'ixs Alalgyax, and he is from  44 Kitwancool.  His name is Ax gwin Desxw now.  45 THE TRANSLATOR:  Ts'ixs Alalgyax is 1569.  46 A   Gordon Sebastion has a name Anuhlim Ben.  That's a  47 Gitksan name.  He lives in Hagwilget.  It's from the 7051  N.J. Sterritt (For Plfs.)  In Chief by Mr. Rush  1 House of Luutkudziiwus.  2 THE TRANSLATOR:  Anuhlim Ban is A-N-U-H-L-I-M —.  3 THE COURT:  L-I?  4 THE TRANSLATOR:  You got it?  5 THE COURT:  No.  I haven't.  Sorry.  6 THE TRANSLATOR:  A-N-U-H-L-I-M B-A-N.  7 THE COURT:  Thank you.  8 A  Another new name on there is Nekt, George Muldoe.  9 He's from the House of Delgamuukw in Kispiox.  10 THE TRANSLATOR:  What was his name?  11 THE COURT:  Nekt.  12 THE TRANSLATOR:  N-E-E-K-W.  13 MR. RUSH:  14 Q   And Tommy Tait, is that a new name?  15 A   Yes, and I'm not familiar with his Wet'suwet'en name,  16 but he is Wet'suwet'en.  17 Q   And on the front page of the 1979 filing there are the  18 names of Bill Blackwater, Dora Kenni, Mel Bevin.  19 You've mentioned those.  Is Audrey Morrison a new  2 0 name?  21 A   Yes.  Audrey is from the House of Skiik'm lax ha, and  22 her name is Naagan.  2 3 THE TRANSLATOR:  N-A-A-G-A-N.  2 4 THE COURT:  N-A-A-G-A-N.  Thank you.  2 5 MR. RUSH:  26 Q   All right.  I'm just going to ask you now to set that  27 exhibit aside, Mr. Sterritt.  28 Under the constitution that is Exhibit 344 what  29 was the nature of the representation of the board of  30 directors?  31 A   The -- by and large the representation was hereditary  32 chiefs.  33 Q   Okay.  And where were the hereditary -- were there  34 hereditary chiefs by village orientation, or how were  35 they represented to the tribal council --  36 A   Yes.  37 Q   -- Board of directors?  38 A   It was based on village orientation.  39 Q   Okay.  All right.  Now, I want to ask you, Mr.  40 Sterritt, when the tribal council was formed as an  41 incorporated body who became the president in 1978?  42 A  William Blackwater, Baskyelaxha.  43 Q   All right.  And at that time the -- can you comment on  44 what the duties and objectives of the tribal council  45 were?  46 A   The main objective was to achieve just resolution of  47 the land claim of the Gitksan and Wet'suwet'en people. 7052  N.J. Sterritt (For Plfs.)  In Chief by Mr. Rush  1 Other objectives were to assert the authority of the  2 hereditary chiefs, to educate and --  3 MR. GOLDIE:  Excuse me, my lord.  Are these the -- is the  4 witness referring to the objects clauses of the  5 constitution?  6 THE COURT:  I don't think so.  7 MR. GOLDIE:  I thought I detected something familiar in one of  8 the things he said.  If so I was going to suggest the  9 document could speak for itself.  10 MR. RUSH:  11 Q   I don't see the document open in front of you, Mr.  12 Sterritt.  Were you referring to the duties or objects  13 of the constitution that are set out in the  14 constitution?  What --  15 A  Well, they're similar, but the hereditary chiefs  16 gave -- were giving specific direction to the  17 executive and directors of the tribal council.  The  18 hereditary chiefs were very concerned about the way  19 logging was being conducted and they wanted to -- they  20 wanted something done about that.  They wanted -- they  21 wanted the logging practices to change.  Where damage  22 was being done in a negative way they wanted it  23 stopped, but in particular they wanted the logging  24 practices to change.  The hereditary chiefs --  25 MR. GOLDIE:  Well, excuse me, perhaps I can be a little more  26 specific.  If these are the duties of the president  27 presumably they are manifested in some way, but to  28 give evidence of what the hereditary chiefs wanted  29 leaves us in a limbo as far as the source of  30 information is concerned.  If there is something  31 specific that the tribal council was instructed to do  32 and is embodied in a resolution or a letter or  33 document then let's have it.  We've had the  34 constitution which sets out the duties.  This now  35 is -- there appears to be no particular source of  36 information other than what the witness understands  37 the hereditary chiefs to want.  38 THE COURT:  Well, that seems to me what the witness is telling  39 me, is it not, Mr. Rush?  40 MR. RUSH:  Yes, I think it is.  I asked what the duties were,  41 and I was asking what in fact the tribal council did.  42 I think he can comment on that.  43 THE COURT:  Well —  44 MR. GOLDIE:  That's precisely my point, I don't think he can  45 comment on that.  46 THE COURT:  What the witness has done is identified certain  47 documents which set out the legal requirements as 7053  1  2  1  3  4  5  6  ]  7  MR.  RUSH:  8  9  MR.  GOLDIE  10  11  12  13  14  15  MR.  RUSH:  16  ]  17  THE  COURT:  18  MR.  RUSH:  19  ]  20  MR.  GOLDIE  21  MR.  RUSH:  22  Q  23  24  A  25  Q  26  27  28  A  29  Q  30  31  32  33  A  34  Q  35  36  A  37  Q  38  A  39  40  41  42  43  ]  44  45  46  i  47  N.J. Sterritt (For Plfs.)  In Chief by Mr. Rush  opposed to now saying what he understands the  directions of the tribal -- of the hereditary chiefs  were to the tribal council in an operational sense.  He hasn't identified the source except just to quote  the hereditary chiefs.  Have I stated it correctly,  Mr. Rush?  I think that's right, my lord.  Yes, so far that's  right.  I intend to get into more specifics.  :  Well, the -- just so we're clear on this, Mr.  Sterritt is not a director.  As far as I understand it  he was at this time an employee.  Now he's giving  evidence of what the directions given by, including a  number of living witnesses, gave to a third party, and  in my submission he's not competent to do that.  Maybe I'll just change some of my questions to assist  Mr. Goldie.  Well, it will certainly assist me if you can.  Well, I'm more interested in assisting the court than  Mr. Goldie.  :  It all comes together sooner or later.  This is true.  Now, Mr. Sterritt, you were -- were you involved in  certain meetings of the hereditary chiefs after 1978?  Yes, I was.  And you mentioned in particular the involvement that  you had as a director of land claims in regard to  fishing?  Yes.  And were there meetings of the hereditary chiefs at  which you were present in respect of the enforcement  of Fisheries' regulations on the Skeena and Bulkley  Rivers?  Yes.  And as a result of those meetings did you do certain  things at the direction of the hereditary chiefs?  Yes, I did.  What did you do?  The -- when the land claims office was set up the  hereditary chiefs set up an advisory committee to that  office, and the hereditary chiefs directed -- there  were recommendations made to the board of directors of  the tribal council, and the the board of directors  much of what they wanted implemented the only office  that was available was the office -- the land claims  office and so I was involved in carrying out the  direction of the -- of the executive as a -- as an  actual duty on behalf of the executive and the board 7054  1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  Q  14  15  16  A  17  Q  18  19  20  A  21  22  23  24  25  Q  26  27  28  29  A  30  31  Q  32  A  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  Q  44  45  46  A  47  Q  N.J. Sterritt (For Plfs.)  In Chief by Mr. Rush  of directors, or pardon me, the hereditary chiefs.  With regard to the fishing issue the hereditary  chiefs -- the advisory committee were very concerned  and they asked me to help with the defence of the  individuals, and I contacted lawyers, I contacted the  individuals, we met and we discussed the defence of  the individuals.  The other specific activities that  we carried out were the hereditary chiefs had us  directly involved in developing a blanket trapline,  and the reason for that was to combine their ownership  and jurisdiction under one entity, and the first step  to that was the blanket trapline proposal.  Were you specifically involved in organizing meetings  and undertaking correspondence on behalf of the  hereditary chiefs in respect to the blanket trapline?  Yes, I was.  You mentioned logging.  Were you specifically involved  in doing anything in respect of that at this time in  1978?  Yes.  The, both collectively and individually,  hereditary chiefs were coming to me and to the  executive.  They also wrote me letters and asked me  to, or pointed out their concerns about the logging on  their territories and asked what could be done, and --  Now, just in terms of -- in terms of what you did, if  you could focus your evidence in respect of what you  did as a result of certain things that were asked of  you by hereditary chiefs.  I wrote letters on behalf of hereditary chiefs to the  Provincial Government.  Is this in respect of the logging?  Yes.  In respect of the logging.  I -- I met with  government agencies and did presentations explaining  the Gitksan and Wet'suwet'en land claim, advising them  that the Gitksan Wet'suwet'en hereditary chiefs owned  the territory, and about the logging and the concerns  about the hereditary chiefs about the way logging was  being conducted.  I wrote during that period, or  following that period I wrote letters to specific  logging companies on behalf of the hereditary chiefs,  and that was part of the activity in terms of logging  concerns and the traplines.  All right.  Were there meetings in 1978 and following  of the hereditary chiefs dealing with the types of  issues which you then carried out certain directions?  Yes.  All right.  In that period were there feasts which you 7055  1  2  A  3  Q  4  5  A  6  Q  7  8  A  9  10  11  Q  12  13  14  15  16  17  A  18  Q  19  20  A  21  22  23  Q  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  A  31  Q  32  A  33  Q  34  35  36  37  38  A  39  Q  40  41  A  42  43  44  45  46  Q  47  N.J. Sterritt (For Plfs.)  In Chief by Mr. Rush  attended?  Yes.  And were these feasts in which hereditary chiefs were  in attendance?  Yes.  And at the feasts that you attended were decisions  made at those feasts?  Hereditary chiefs made decisions and passed those on  along to the tribal council, to the board of  directors, and the executive.  Now, in terms of your role as a director of the land  claims office of the tribal council were there  meetings that were specifically -- that you  specifically held in relation to the advancement of  the map and declaration that you spoke of as a result  of the June 1977 meeting of the hereditary chiefs?  Yes, there were.  And as a result of these meetings what -- what did you  do?  I met with -- I met with smaller groups of hereditary  chiefs to do further work on the boundary.  In 1978 we  set up the research program to --  Just before you get -- you're a little bit ahead of my  question, or perhaps my question is a little bit  behind your evidence.  I wanted to direct your  attention back to the summer of 1977 and following the  meeting I think you said that occurred in June of  1977, and you mentioned that there had been, I think,  a brief prepared?  Yes.  And a declaration prepared and a map prepared?  Yes.  Is that right?  And I first like to direct your  attention to the brief that you spoke of as having  been prepared at that time.  Were there any meetings  that related -- of the hereditary chiefs that related  to the preparation of this brief?  Yes, there were.  Okay.  And were you able to -- you -- are you able to  say when those occurred?  Well, those meetings were prior to July of 1977.  That  was when the brief was forwarded to Ottawa.  The brief  was reviewed and it was sent on, and then there  were -- after that there were meetings to deal with  the map and the declaration.  All right.  Now, the hereditary chiefs were involved  in the meetings with respect to the brief.  Are you 7056  N.J. Sterritt (For Plfs.)  In Chief by Mr. Rush  1 able to recall who were the chiefs that were involved  2 in that?  3 THE COURT:  I'm sorry, Mr. Rush, did your question relate to the  4 brief?  5 MR. RUSH:  Yes.  6 THE COURT:  Yes.  7 MR. RUSH:  8 Q   I just would like now to focus your attention to the  9 brief that was prepared.  There was a brief prepared  10 in July of 1977, is that right?  11 A   It was prepared prior to that, and sent off in July of  12 '77.  13 Q   Yes.  14 A   Got a lot of names.  Some of the hereditary chiefs  15 would be, I believe, Wigetimstochol, Dan Michell,  16 Richard Morgan, Ken Russell, Willis Morgan, I don't  17 know his name, Jeffery Morgan, Steve Robinson, Martha  18 Brown.  That's the Lax Gibuu, Kliiyemlaxhaa.  19 MR. RUSH:  That's 35, my lord, on the plaintiff's list.  20 A   Jesse Sterritt, Perry Sampson, Tommy Tait, Elijah  21 Turner, David Milton, Alvin Weget.  I don't recall the  22 rest.  2 3 MR. RUSH:  24 Q   Okay.  Are you able to give a number of the hereditary  25 chiefs that were involved after you became the  26 director of the land claims office and before the  27 brief was submitted?  28 A   I think it would be in the neighbourhood of 35 or 40.  29 MR. RUSH:  Okay.  Now, I want to direct Mr. Sterritt's  30 attention, my lord, to Exhibit number 384, which is  31 contained at tab 9 of the document book.  32 THE REGISTRAR:  Exhibit 384?  33 MR. RUSH:  Yes.  It's in the black document book.  34 THE COURT:  This black book document here?  35 MR. RUSH:  Yes, the document book I've introduced for Mr.  36 Sterritt.  37 THE COURT:  Yes.  3 8 MR. RUSH:  39 Q   Showing you document entitled, "Gitksan-Carrier Tribal  40 Council Request for Funding for Research to the Office  41 of Native Indian Claims Ottawa, Ontario", and it's  42 dated July of '77.  Is this the document that I have  43 termed the brief, and which was the brief that you  44 submitted to the office of native claims at that time?  45 A   Yes, it is.  46 Q   And this is the document that the hereditary chiefs  47 that you've just spoken of met about? 7057  1  A  2  Q  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  A  10  11  Q  12  13  14  A  15 MR.  GOLD  16  17  18  19  20  21 MR.  RUSH  22  Q  23  24  A  25  Q  26  A  27  Q  28  29  30  31  A  32  Q  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  A  N.J. Sterritt (For Plfs.)  In Chief by Mr. Rush  Yes.  All right.  Now, I'll just turn -- I'd ask you to turn  to page three of the document.  It's the fifth page, I  believe, in line.  It's difficult to read the numbers.  Yes.  Four is the bottom right hand corner.  Under  heading number three basis for claim the information  that's contained here, Mr. Sterritt, what was the  source of this information?  On item number three the source of that information  was from the hereditary chiefs.  And does this -- does this set out your understanding  of the chiefs' directions to you with regard to the  brief to the office of native claims at that time?  Yes.  i:      I -- what his understanding is -- the only question  that can be put to him is does that accurately state  the information given to him, because his previous  answer was that he was simply acting as a means of  putting down the chiefs' information.  His  understanding is irrelevant.  Now, Mr. Sterritt, did you -- were you the person who  authored this report?  Yes.  Or brief?  Yes, on behalf of the hereditary chiefs.  In terms of what is written on page -- well, what is  shown on page four on the right hand side under  heading three, does that set out what you were told by  the hereditary chiefs?  Yes, it is.  All right.  Now, I'd like to refer you, if you will,  now to page one of the document under summary.  Now,  it indicates at the top of the page that the  Gitksan-Carrier Tribal Council represents eight Indian  bands in northwestern British Columbia, and it  indicates Kitwancool, Kitsegukla -- sorry.  Kitwancool, Kitwanga, Kitsegukla, Gitanmaax, Sikadoak,  Kispiox, Hagwilget and Moricetown, and it says, "This  submission and request for financial assistance is on  behalf of five of those bands", and then it's named,  "Kitwanga, Kitsegukla, Gitanmaax, Sikadoak and Kispiox  to obtain necessary personnel to research and develop  their land claims negotiating position."  Now, is that -- is that an accurate statement,  Mr. —  The -- the first paragraph was to meet the 705?  N.J. Sterritt (For Plfs.)  In Chief by Mr. Rush  1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  2 8 THE  2 9 MR.  30 THE  31 MR.  32 THE  33 MR.  34  35  36 THE  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  Q  A  THE  requirements of the federal government, that an  authorized body was the only body that could receive  financial assistance or loan -- loan funding from the  office of native claims, and yes, that is -- that's  correct.  What did you mean by an authorized body?  The federal government did not recognize the  hereditary chiefs as being an authorized or an  official body that could receive funding to research  and develop a land claim.  The next paragraph says, and I'm quoting, "The Gitksan  will undertake to prepare a map precisely defining the  limits of their ancestral territories, develop a land  claims policy, research further the basis for the  Gitksan claim, and establish a negotiating position in  consultation with the Gitksan and selected  professional advisors."  Here the -- you -- the document makes reference to  the Gitksan.  Now, were the Carrier or the  Wet'suwet'en included within this brief?  No, they weren't.  The Gitksan refers to the Gitksan  hereditary chiefs as opposed to the Indian bands up  above, and it referred only to the Gitksan.  The  Wet'suwet'en were reviewing, amongst themselves,  whether to come in with the Gitksan at this point or  whether to do their land claim differently.  The  Wet'suwet'en hereditary chiefs were reviewing that.  What do you think, Mr. Rush, should we adjourn?  All right.  Before we go can I be reminded about Sikadoak?  Glen Vowel1.  Glen Vowell?  Glen Vowell is the name of the reserve, but Sika doak  is the name of the village.  In this document it's  S-I-K-A-D-O-A-K.  I asked that once before.  All right.  We'll adjourn  then until ten o'clock.  All right.  Thank you.  REGISTRAR:  Order in court.  Court will adjourn until 10:00  a.m. tomorrow.  A  COURT:  RUSH:  COURT:  GOLDIE  COURT:  RUSH:  COURT:  (PROCEEDINGS ADJOURNED TO JUNE 21, 1988 AT 10:00 a.m.) 7059  N.J. Sterritt (For Plfs.)  In Chief by Mr. Rush  1  2 I hereby certify the foregoing to be  3 a true and accurate transcript of the  4 proceedings herein to the best of my  5 skill and ability.  6  7  8  9 Peri McHale, Official Reporter  10 UNITED REPORTING SERVICE LTD.  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46

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