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[Proceedings of the Supreme Court of British Columbia 1988-09-15] British Columbia. Supreme Court Sep 15, 1988

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 7789  Proceedings  N. Sterritt (for Plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Rush  Vancouver, B.C.  September 15th, 19?  (PROCEEDINGS RESUMED PURSUANT TO ADJOURNMENT)  THE REGISTRAR:  In the Supreme Court of British Columbia, this  Thursday, September 15, 1988.  Calling Delgamuukw and  8 Her Majesty the Queen at bar.  9 I caution the witness you are still under oath.  10 THE COURT:  Oh, Madam Registrar, I've come with the wrong bench  11 book.  The current one is right on my desk, or on my  12 credenza.  13 THE REGISTRAR:  Very good.  14 THE COURT:  If you could get it for me, please.  15 I think that counsel may be interested to know, if  16 they haven't heard, that Chief Justice McLachlin's  17 husband died last night, which is a matter that was  18 expected momentarily and has now happened, and of  19 course Chief Justice McLachlin is not going to be here  20 today or for a little while, but there will be a  21 private family service, and we'll know more about it  22 later in the day.  It's very unfortunate.  23 MR. GOLDIE:  I think it a matter of great sorrow for her, and  24 there's obviously nothing that the members of the bar  25 can do except to record their very deep sympathy with  26 her in this circumstance.  27 THE COURT:  Thank you, Mr. Goldie.  28 MR. RUSH:  I would just like to join with my learned friend.  2 9 MR. MACAYLAY:  And I, my lord.  30 THE COURT:  Yes.  Thank you, gentlemen.  All right.  I think we  31 can start, Mr. Rush.  I can make some temporary notes  32 and transfer them later.  My book will be along in  33 just a moment.  34 MR. RUSH:  Thank you.  35  36 NEIL STERRITT, Resumed:  37  38 EXAMINATION IN CHIEF BY MR. RUSH CONTINUED:  39 Q   Mr. Sterritt, would you just go over to map overlay  40 9A, please, and point out to his lordship the  41 territory that you have been referring us to in this 1  42 to 50,000 map?  43 A   The Village of Kispiox is located right in this spot  44 on the map, and the territory that I'm referring to is  45 immediately north of Kispiox, about four or five miles  46 on the west side of the Kispiox.  47 MR. RUSH:  Your lordship may recall that Mr. Sterritt had 7790  N. Sterritt (for Plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Rush  1 concluded his evidence yesterday dealing with this  2 Ma'uus Territory.  3 Q   Now, Mr. Sterritt, I think you also told us yesterday  4 that subsequent information came to your attention  5 about the adjustments that occurred in this  6 territorial boundary.  Can you express where those  7 are?  8 A   Yes.  The major adjustment was the one I referred to  9 yesterday in terms of Date Creek, D-a-t-e, in relation  10 to the Gitksan name Xsu Wii Masxw.  X-s-u space W-i-1  11 space M-a-s-x-w.  What I said about the territory of  12 Antgulilibix, A-n-t-g-u-1-i-l-i-b-i-x, applies because  13 there's a common boundary here between Antgulilibix  14 and Ma'uus, M-a-'-u-u-s.  15 MR. RUSH:  That's 48 on the list.  16 A   Now, as a result of listening to what Mary Johnson had  17 said I mentioned that I contacted a hereditary chief,  18 Jeff Harris Sr., and asked him if he would accompany  19 me and show me where Xsu Wii Masxw was.  X-s-u space  20 W-i-1 space M-a-s-x-w.  And he said we should drive  21 some distance up the Kispiox, approximately five  22 miles, which would be a good point.  And so we did  23 that.  And from that vantage point he not only  24 described the information about Date Creek, but he  25 described in considerable detail information about the  26 Territory of Ma'uus and Amaget.  That's A-m-a-g-e-t.  27 And as a result the northern boundary of this Ma'uus  28 Territory, which was based on limited amount of  29 information and extrapolation, became altered to add a  30 minor amount of territory.  If you look on the  31 northern boundary you see two lakes on either side of  32 the boundary at Lot 2564 and Lot 2555.  Jeff Harris  33 informed me that both of those lakes should be within  34 the territory.  And then from there the boundary goes  35 slightly southeast to where the canyon is at Lot  36 number 2560.  There's a bridge crossing there and it's  37 the narrow spot, and that is the crossing -- or the  38 boundary goes to there.  39 Q   Mr. Sterritt, when you refer to lot number, there is a  40 lot number shown on the map in front of you, is that  41 right?  42 A   Yes.  Lot 2560F.  And on the map you can see a bridge  43 crossing there.  The road goes either side and that's  44 the area of the boundary.  45 Q   Okay.  Were there any other adjustments that were made  46 to this boundary?  47 A  Well, as I mentioned, the boundary should come down 7791  N. Sterritt (for Plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Rush  1  2  3  1  4  5  6  7  8  9  Q  10  A  11  Q  12  A  13  MR. GOLDIE  14  15  MR. RUSH:  16  Q  17  18  19  20  A  21  Q  22  A  23  Q  24  A  25  Q  26  27  A  28  29  ]  30  31  32  ]  33  Q  34  35  A  36  Q  37  A  38  Q  39  A  40  41  Q  42  43  44  A  45  Q  46  A  47  Xsu Wii Masxw until it hits Date Creek, and at that  point the boundary comes up the -- up Date Creek a  distance and then over the mountain south of Ansa Luu  Hlo'os.  It's written on the map A-n-s-a space L-u-u  space H-l-o-'-o-s.  And then the line goes down to the  Kispiox, from there goes east to the Kispiox.  Now, there were -- there was other information not  only from Jeff Harris, but other persons.  You mentioned Percy Sterritt yesterday.  Was he one?  Yes.  I'm talking about subsequent information.  Yes.  Also Pete Muldoe.  :  Excuse me.  Is that an addition to the people that  you got subsequent information from?  Yesterday -- I think so.  Yes.  Yesterday, Mr. Sterritt, you indicated that you had  received information in May of 1987 from Jeff Harris  Sr., and I believe is that what you have just referred  to?  Yes.  And then from Percy Sterritt and Stanley Williams?  No.  Stanley Wilson.  Excuse me.  Stanley Wilson?  Yes.  And are you now saying further that you obtained other  information from Pete Muldoe?  Yes.  On the east side of the Kispiox -- the boundary  goes across the Kispiox on the east side, and Pete  Muldoe provided information on that side, as well as  Jeff Harris Sr..  That is a subsequent change that  would be reflected on map 9A.  That is not on this  map.  Now, in the course of your discussions with Jeff  Harris Sr. did you make notes of those discussions?  Yes, I did.  And are those contained in your loose-leaf notes?  Yes.  They are dated at the end of May of 1987.  Okay.  And there were further discussions as well in 19 -- if  not later on in 1987 also in the spring of 1988.  During those discussions with Mr. Harris in May of --  late May of 1987 did you sketch out a map of this  area?  Yes.  Based on information he provided you?  I wouldn't call it a map.  It would actually be a  sketch of the mountains and naming the features on the 7792  N. Sterritt (for Plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Rush  1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  mountain.  Q   This was done the same time as you had the discussion  with Mr. Harris?  A   Yes.  Q   I just want to show you two pages of a sketch which if  you can identify the two pages as yours?  A   Yes.  Those are the sketches that I made from two  different locations.  One was just north of what we  locally call 17 Mile Bridge, which is very close to  the Sportsman's Lodge on the east side of the Kispiox  River.  MR. RUSH:  Just pause there and hand that to his lordship,  please.  Thank you.  THE  MR.  MR.  MR.  MR.  THE  MR.  COURT  RUSH:  Q  A  MR.  Yes.  Go ahead, please.  And then the other view -- I wanted to get different  perspectives because of the features, and the other  view was approximately two and a half miles south of  the Sportsman's Lodge on the east side of the Kispiox  River.  Right.  And do those sketches indicate the information  provided by Mr. Jeff Harris Sr.?  Yes, they do.  And does the information that's contained there, is  that reflected in that 9A?  Yes, it is.  GOLDIE:  Well, I take it that my friend's question is  intended to determine whether this information was  passed on to Mr. George?  Yes.  If that step has to be taken.  The information that is contained there, Mr. Sterritt,  was that passed on to Mr. George?  Yes.  All right.  My lord, first I'd like to ask that the  map that's marked "Draft Copy", that is indicated as  labelled Schedule B and marked Ma'uus, M-a-'-u-u-s, be  marked as the next exhibit.  COURT:  Mr. Goldie?  GOLDIE:  I have no objection to that, my lord.  I was going  to suggest that if the -- if the affidavit to which  this was appended is attached and that would complete  it and it need not, as far as I'm concerned, under  that circumstances be marked for identification if it  is -- if it is attached to and identified as being  that which was sworn to by Mr. Jeff Harris Jr..  RUSH:  Well, my lord, I don't think there's any objection to  A  Q  A  RUSH  Q  A  RUSH 7793  N. Sterritt (for Plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Rush  1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  MR. RUSH  THE  MR.  THE  THE  THE  THE  it going in on its face.  I hadn't intended, and I  don't really intend at this point, to put in the  interrogatory response to which it attaches.  MR. GOLDIE:  Well, in that case it should be marked for  identification.  MR. RUSH:  I don't object to that.  THE COURT:  All right.  The next number, please.  THE REGISTRAR:  The next number is 684 for I.D..  (EXHIBIT 684 FOR IDENTIFICATION:  Draft Map - Ma'uus Territory)  THE COURT:  Do you have some more things to mark, Mr. Rush?  Some more things to mark now?  Yes.  I was going to ask that the sketch -- the two  sketches that are stapled together be marked as the  next exhibit.  COURT:  All right.  Any objection to that, gentlemen?  GOLDIE:  No, my lord.  COURT:  All right.  685.  REGISTRAR:  That would be an exhibit?  COURT:  Yes.  REGISTRAR:  Thank you.  (EXHIBIT 685:  Sketche - 2 pages by Neil Sterritt)  THE COURT:  Anything else, Mr. Rush?  MR. RUSH:  No.  THE COURT:  Can I interrupt then, just for a moment, to give to  counsel a copy of a -- well, the copy of a letter of  notice that I received yesterday relating to a bridge  over Sam Green Creek which was copied to me, and to  which I propose to make no response.  As it's come to  me in the course of the trial I just want to expose  counsel to it.  I don't consider myself inflamed or  anything of that kind by its contents.  MR. RUSH:  I take it -- my lord, it appears that our clients are  involved in this.  I take it -- you're passing this  back to me.  Would you like to retain this in your  file?  THE COURT:  I don't have any anxiety about it.  I'm not sure  what I should do about it.  I thought having received  a letter that might relate to the case I should show  it to counsel.  I'm quite happy to put it in one of my  miscellaneous files, or prepared to have it put in the  court file.  Perhaps the court file is where it should 7794  N. Sterritt (for Plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Rush  1 be.  2 MR. RUSH:  I think if that's your lordship's resolution I don't  3 have any objection to that.  4 THE COURT:  I think we'll just put it in the court file.  5 MR. GOLDIE:  I agree with that, my lord.  I think any purported  6 communication from the clients in this case ought to  7 be to the court file.  8 THE COURT:  All right.  Madam Registrar, would you put that in  9 the court file, please.  10 THE REGISTRAR:  Yes.  11 THE COURT:  All right.  Thank you, Mr. Rush.  12 MR. RUSH:  All right.  Thank you.  13 Q   Mr. Sterritt, I'm going to show you another map which  14 is labelled "Schedule C", and in the bottom right hand  15 corner, the opposite side of the face page, is the  16 lettering Basyelax Haa, B-a-s-y-e-1-e-x new word  17 H-a-a, and on the face stamped "Draft Copy" and then  18 Basyelex Haa again on the face page.  19 MR. MACAYLAY:  My lord, counsel has the advantage — at all  20 times have the advantage of an overlay showing these  21 boundaries, the interrogatory map boundaries.  It may  22 be of assistance to your lordship in following this  23 evidence.  I am not making this available to your  24 lordship together with a representation that it's  25 absolutely accurate, or anything like that, it's just  26 the best we could do with a whole series of these  27 sheets.  If my friend has -- the plaintiffs' counsel  28 have no objection I'll hand one of these up.  We're  29 following it with this.  As I say, I emphasize these  30 lines aren't said to be absolutely accurate in every  31 respect, but it shows the area.  This number eight,  32 for instance, we're coming to on the map it shows  33 number eight, your lordship, will be able to zero in  34 as Basyelax Haa's.  Outline any house in Basyelax Haa  35 Territory.  36 THE COURT:  Thank you, Mr. Macaulay.  Have you seen this, Mr.  37 Rush?  38 MR. MACAYLAY:  They have it.  Counsel have it propped up here.  39 Everybody has a copy.  4 0 THE COURT:  You're looking over Mr. Grant's shoulder.  What do  41 you say, Mr. Rush?  42 MR. RUSH:  Well, the rest of Mr. Macaulay's maps, as they become  43 known, I think, have been presented to you as an aide  44 memoire.  I don't really object to this.  45 THE COURT:  All right.  4 6 MR. MACAYLAY:  There's another one that —  47 THE COURT:  I'm sorry, Mr. Macaylay, it's the overlay to 7795  N. Sterritt (for Plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Rush  1 anything in particular?  Does it fit on your face map?  2 MR. MACAYLAY:  The federal —  3 THE COURT:  On that one?  4 MR. MACAYLAY:  Clearly, yes.  There is another one that could be  5 used to advantage with that, and that is -- it's the  6 plaintiffs' map, but it's -- it's 9A.  And the witness  7 keeps referring to 9A.  And all this is is our Mr.  8 McKinnon's enlargement to the federal scale of the  9 plaintiffs' other map.  The plaintiffs have done a  10 certain scale and this is enlarged to another.  If you  11 use the two you can see where the witness is  12 describing changes in lines, and so on.  13 THE COURT:  Have you seen this one too, Mr. Rush?  14 MR. RUSH:  No, I've never seen this one.  15 MR. MACAYLAY:  No, we just got it.  16 MR. RUSH:  But I -- with all respect to this map, you have the  17 identical map, or what we say is the correct version  18 of that overlay beside you as the top overlay.  9A is  19 the little one to your left.  20 MR. MACAYLAY:  The reason I mentioned this one is that it would  21 fit on the same map, two together.  22 THE COURT:  I see.  23 MR. MACAYLAY:  Would go together.  This is the plaintiffs' map,  24 but done to the scale of the federal map.  25 THE COURT:  Yes.  Well, perhaps you should let Mr. Rush look at  26 it and if he has no objection I'll be glad to have it.  27 I'm happy to have all the help I can get.  28 MR. MACAYLAY:  Then when the witness says we have changed -- as  29 a result of field trips and discussions the boundary  30 changes took place here and there it's easy looking at  31 the two overlays, one on top of the other, to see what  32 he's talking about.  I don't see any -- that it's any  33 disadvantage to the plaintiff.  Probably makes it  34 easier to follow Mr. Sterritt's evidence.  35 MR. RUSH:  We'll, have a look after.  36 THE COURT:  Thank you, Mr. Macaulay.  37 MR. MACAYLAY:  I take it we're on number eight.  You see,  38 there's a code at the top giving the names, and I  39 think this is number eight on this, the Basyelax Haa  40 Territory.  41 MR. GOLDIE:  I'd like to say, my lord, that it's seldom that a  42 federal scale is smaller than the wall, but in this  43 case I find it quite useful.  44 THE COURT:  Thank you.  All right, Mr. Rush.  45 MR. RUSH:  Yes.  All right.  46 THE COURT:  Your friends are letting you proceed.  47 MR. RUSH:  Always grateful for any help Mr. Macaulay can 7796  N. Sterritt (for Plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Rush  1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  THE  MR.  THE  MR.  provide, such that it is at times.  My lord, the map that is before Mr. Sterritt is  from the interrogatory of William Blackwater, Basyelax  Haa, dated February 15th, 1987.  Q   Now, the map -- Mr. Sterritt, I'm asking you if you  can recognize the lines, the boundary lines as  depicted on this map?  A   Yes, I can.  Q   And what can you say about those lines?  A  Well, the boundary lines as represented here contain  the Territory of Basyelax Haa, but the extrapolation  inaccuracy that appears here is that there are two  territories contained within the boundary lines, and  it was a judgment call on my part in terms of the  relationship between Basyelax Haa --  COURT:  Maybe you can give the plaintiff number.  RUSH:  That's two.  REGISTRAR:  Number two.  A  And Niist.  Now, I hadn't appreciated at this point  that there were two separate territories there.  RUSH:  Q  A  Q  A  MR.  THE  RUSH:  COURT  A  THE  COURT  A  At what point are you talking about?  When this draft map was drawn.  Do you know when that was?  I couldn't say, but it represents what -- what I had  provided with Marvin George at the time -- provided to  Marvin George, and I don't recall the exact date.  But  the reason that there are two different -- or I  combined the territory is that Walter Blackwater --  pardon me.  David Blackwater and Billy Blackwater are  brothers, but they do have separate houses, and there  is a separate territory here.  There is a boundary  between the Territory of Basyelax Haa and Niist.  Now,  the northern -- yes, the northern boundary line --  Niist is 54.  :  Yes.  Which is on your left when you look at the map is  correct.  There should be little or no difference  between that line and the line on map 9A.  And the  separation between the Territory of Basyelax Haa and  Niist begins on the Nass River at the mouth of Xsi  Tsinihl Denden Ando'o.  That's X-s-i space  T-s-i-n-i-h-1 space D-e-n-d-e-n --  :  I'm sorry.  D-e-n twice?  Yes.  Space A-n-d-o-'-o.  Now, on the topographic map  that is Vile Creek.  V-i-l-e.  And as a result of  later discussions with Walter Blackwater he was 7797  N. Sterritt (for Plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Rush  1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  THE  COURT  23  A  24  THE  COURT  25  A  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  THE  COURT  35  A  36  THE  COURT  37  A  38  39  40  41  42  43  MR.  RUSH:  44  Q  45  46  A  47  Q  more -- he was able to identify for me more accurately  where that boundary went.  And the separation between  Niist and Basyelax Haa begins on the Nass River at the  mouth of Vile Creek and then follows the height of  land generally east to cross a creek about in the  middle of the map called Xsi Andap Matx.  That's X-s-i  space A-n-d-a-p space M-a-t-x.  It crosses that about  seven miles from the main lake in the middle of the  map and then continues along the height of land down  to the Skeena River about a mile below Xsi Tsinihl  Denden.  That's the creek that flows into the Skeena.  That's X-s-i space T-s-i-n-i-h-1 space D-e-n-d-e-n.  And that appears on the map, on the topographic maps  as Canyon Creek.  So now there was -- that describes  the separation between the two, but there is a further  definition on the southern boundary of Basyelax Haa  which if you see -- if you look in the Nass River,  which is the dark line running diagonally across the  left hand corner of the map, there is a creek between  the M and the S of Xsi Txemsem.  X-s-i space  T-x-e-m-s-e-m.  :  T-x-e-m?  S-e-m.  :  Thank you.  And there's a creek between the S and the M which is  on the topographic map as Sallysout.  That's spelled  S-a-1-l-y-s-o-u-t.  Sallysout Creek in Gitksan is Xsa  Galliixawit.  X-s-a space G-a-1-l-i-i-x-a-w-i-t.  Now,  the boundary follows Xsa Galliixawit Creek looking on  this map for about five inches and then continues on  up another creek, which was identified to me by Albert  Tait, called Xsi Luu Alagwit.  X-s-i space L-u-u space  A-1-a-g-w-i-t.  :  A-l-a-g?  W-i-t.  :  Thank you.  And there is no name on the map for that, on the  topographic series map.  And then the boundary  basically follows the height of land pretty well as  it's represented here all the way to the Skeena.  And  then that would describe the Territory of Basyelax  Haa.  Who were your informants with regard to the map that's  in front of you?  Walter Blackwater.  Oh, the map that's in front of me?  Yes. 779?  N. Sterritt (for Plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Rush  1  A  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  Q  14  MR. GOLDI  15  16  A  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  THE COURT  30  31  A  32  MR. RUSH:  33  Q  34  35  A  36  Q  37  A  38  39  Q  40  A  41  42  Q  43  A  44  Q  45  46  A  47  Q  It -- for various geographic features within it it  is -- the details arise partly out of the field trip  that I took with Walter Blackwater, David Blackwater  and Nancy Supernault in September of 1986.  There is  also information would be contained within the notes  of -- that I referred to of Chris Harris, Richard  Benson, Perry -- no, not Perry Sampson.  A man by the  name of Arthur Sampson.  There are two Arthur  Sampsons.  And that would be -- that would be in my  field book.  Steve Morrison, I know he talked about  this.  I'm not sure that I took a note of it.  That  would be in the mid 1970's.  All right.  EI:  All of those dates are in the mid 1970's that he's  talking about?  Chris Harris?  No.  The Chris Harris information is copies of his  notes that I have, and that information he gave to me  in the 1970's.  And Steve Morrison in the 1970's.  He  died about 1977 or '78.  Arthur Sampson would be in  about 1983, 1984 in my field books.  And then, of  course, the subsequent detail that I got was from  Walter Blackwater in 1986 and discussions subsequent  to that field trip.  I should mention that this is  also a route that we flew on the over flight -- the  overview that we took last summer.  We flew right up  Canyon Lake from the Skeena when we left Slamgeesh  Lake, S-1-a-m-g-e-e-s-h, and then flew up here and  then down the Nass River.  :  That's where we stopped and changed seats in the  second helicopter?  Right at the mouth of Sallysout Creek, yes.  And is the information that you received on a  heli-flight prior to 1986 contained in this map?  Yes.  And what heli-flight was that?  If you can remember.  A heli-flight that I took up on the flight with James  Morrison and David Gunanoot and Glen Williams.  And that would be in June of 1983?  Yes.  And also in May of 1983 a heli-flight with Pete  Muldoe, David Blackwater and Albert Tait.  Were notes made and kept of that?  Yes.  They're in my field book.  And it shows on your summary of field trips as that  flight having occurred on May 20th, '83?  Yes.  Now, in terms of the adjustments that you've mentioned 7799  N. Sterritt (for Plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Rush  1 in respect of this territory you've indicated that you  2 received instructions from Walter and David  3 Blackwater, and you mentioned a heli-flight of 1986.  4 Were there instructions that you received about those  5 adjustments that you received from anyone else?  6 A   No.  No.  7 Q   All right.  And the information of Walter and David --  8 A   I should add that Pete Muldoe provided further detail  9 on the southeast boundary to me in terms of detail,  10 but it didn't alter the boundary to any degree, but he  11 also is a person who provided subsequent information  12 to me.  13 Q   All right.  And the date in which Walter and David  14 Blackwater provided you with that information?  15 A   I had several sessions with Walter and David.  It  16 would be during 1987 and in the winter of 1988.  17 Q   Right.  The sessions with Walter and David Blackwater  18 in 1987, would that be in the fall of '87?  19 A   I believe that it is.  I'm not -- I'm not certain.  20 Q   Okay.  Now, would these -- these are in your field  21 notes?  22 A   They're in the loose-leaf.  Those should be in the  23 loose-leaf notes.  24 Q   Under the name of Walter Blackwater and David  25 Blackwater separately?  26 A  Most of my information with David and Walter will  27 appear under Walter.  28 Q   Okay.  29 A   I should say all of them will appear under Walter.  30 Q   Okay.  Now, Mr. Sterritt, I wonder if you just look at  31 map overlay 9A and tell us whether the changes that  32 you were instructed about were reflected in that map  33 so far as the Basyelax Haa and Niist Territories?  34 A   Yes, they are.  35 MR. RUSH:  All right.  Thank you.  Thank you, Mr. Sterritt.  Can  36 you set that map aside.  May that be the next exhibit  37 for identification, please.  38 THE COURT:  686 for identification.  39 THE REGISTRAR:  Right.  686 for I.D..  40  41 (EXHIBIT 686 FOR IDENTIFCATION:  42 Draft Map - Basyelex Haa Territory)  43  44 THE COURT:  Mr. Macaulay, on this overlay you've given me, I  45 take it that in areas where there is no number there  46 was no interrogatory map to cover that territory; is  47 that the explanation? 7800  N. Sterritt (for Plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Rush  1 MR. MACAYLAY:  Well, that's right, my lord.  You'll see where  2 for instance there's number eight -- you've been  3 looking at number eight just now and there was an  4 interrogatory map, but if you go down to number 28 --  5 THE COURT:  Just go adjacent to number eight.  To the east there  6 is a territory with no number in it.  7 MR. MACAYLAY:  I can't explain right now the reason for that,  8 because it seems to be a definite boundary.  9 Wii'goob'l.  I'll find that out, my lord.  But there  10 are others where there were no maps and they appear in  11 interrupted circles like 28, and 40, 49, 50.  Those  12 were just general areas.  They indicate general areas  13 of --  14 THE COURT:  What does an interrupted circle mean?  15 MR. MACAYLAY:  Well, those are the cases where there were no  16 maps.  17 THE COURT:  All right.  18 MR. MACAYLAY:  There was a written description in the  19 interrogatories so we could in a general way indicate  20 where the house territory was said to be.  21 THE COURT:  Well, on the extreme — well, just north of the  22 southeast corner of the external boundary there's  23 quite a large territory with no number in it at all.  24 MR. GOLDIE:  We, of course, didn't get interrogatories from all  25 of the present plaintiffs.  2 6 THE COURT:  I see.  27 MR. GOLDIE:  The interrogatories were originally delivered to  28 the 47 plaintiffs when the case started.  29 THE COURT:  So this area that's down on the southeast corner  30 would be an area for which no interrogatory map is --  31 MR. GOLDIE:  I would have to check that, but that is one  32 problem.  33 THE COURT:  Explanation.  All right.  Thank you.  34 MR. MACAYLAY:  This is only handed up as a useful guide for this  35 witness and understanding his evidence at a glance, so  36 to speak.  37 THE COURT:  Yes.  38 MR. MACAYLAY:  If your lordship had placed our overlay on 9A you  39 would have seen again at a glance what the witness was  40 talking about.  41 THE COURT:  Yes.  I can see that on 9A what I have here.  42 MR. MACAYLAY:  Niist and Basyelex Haa.  43 THE COURT:  All right.  Thank you.  4 4 MR. RUSH:  45 Q   I'm showing you another map, Mr. Sterritt.  This one  46 is labelled Schedule C, and it was identified with the  47 name of Kliyem Lax Haa, K-1-i-y-e-m new word L-a-x new 7801  N. Sterritt (for Plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Rush  1  2  THE  COURT  3  MR.  RUSH:  4  Q  5  A  6  Q  7  A  8  MR.  MACAY  9  10  THE  COURT  11  MR.  RUSH:  12  Q  13  A  14  Q  15  16  A  17  18  MR.  RUSH:  19  20  21  THE  COURT  22  MR.  RUSH:  23  THE  COURT  24  MR.  RUSH:  25  Q  26  27  A  28  Q  29  A  30  Q  31  32  33  A  34  35  36  Q  37  38  A  39  Q  40  41  42  43  A  44  45  46  47  word H-a-a.  :  A-a?  Yes.  Do you recognize what that depicts, Mr. Sterritt?  Yes, I do.  What's that?  It's the draft of the Territory of Kliyem Lax Haa.  LAY:  I think we are dealing with number one now, my  lord.  :  Thank you.  Sterritt, that is marked draft copy?  what is the general area that this map  And, Mr  Yes.  And what's  depicts?  This is at the -- generally at the head of the Nass  River north of Blackwater Lake.  And, my lord, this is a map that is a 1 to 50,000  scale map, and was attached to the interrogatory of  Martha Brown on January 27th, 1987.  :  Is she Kliyem Lax Haa?  She is -- was.  She is deceased.  :  Thank you.  There's been a feast in respect of the passing of the  late Martha Brown, Kliyem Lax Haa?  Yes, there has.  And who's the present holder of the name?  Martha Brown's daughter, Eva Sampson.  Thank you.  Now, Mr. Sterritt, I think you gave  testimony about this earlier this week, I think on  Tuesday, about this territory; is that right?  Yes, I did.  I was talking about the external boundary  at the north end of this territory.  I didn't discuss  other parts of it.  And was that in respect of the evidence you gave about  the changes from overlay map 4 to overlay map 6?  Yes , it was.  All right.  Now, setting aside what you said at that  time can you tell his lordship what information you  received and passed on to Marvin George that was the  basis for the description that's shown on this map?  Yes.  My uncle, Percy Sterritt, had provided me with  some information as early as 1974, 1975 that should  appear in my journals, or in one of my journals.  It  will appear in some loose-leaf notes of the time, or  scraps of paper.  And also subsequent to that we 7802  N. Sterritt (for Plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Rush  1  2  3  Q  4  A  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  Q  12  A  13  Q  14  15  16  A  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  Q  38  A  39  40  41  42  43  44  THE COURT  45  A  46  MR. RUSH:  47  Q  discussed this area, and some of that information will  appear in my field books.  And from -- did you have other informants?  Yes.  I had a conversation once with both Percy  Sterritt and George Wilson, who was Wiimugulsxw.  W-i-i-m-u-g-u-1-s-x-w.  And they provided me with  information that -- that appears in my very early  notes.  I had discussions with Walter Blackwater in  1982 or 1983.  I talked to Martha Brown over a period  of time.  Would those be contained in your field notebooks?  Yes.  All right.  And was the boundary here subsequently  adjusted after that earlier information was passed on  to Marvin George?  Yes.  This boundary represents some information that I  had at the time, and then I had subsequent discussions  with Percy Sterritt where I asked him more precisely  where the boundary went in relation to the Nass River,  and he advised me that the former Niist, Charles  Sampson, had told him that the boundary was on either  side -- the tops of the mountains on either side of  the Nass River.  That discussion was in late 1987 or  early 1988, and that appears in my loose-leaf notes.  I had discussions with Walter Blackwater, and he  corroborated that information and identified the name  of the mountain on the west side of the Nass River as  Wii Maxhla Dox Hla Genx Wii Gwiik.  That's W-i-1 space  M-a-x-h-1-a space D-o-x space H-l-a g-e-n-x space  W-i-i space G-w-i-i-k.  That's where they're talking  about the large tracks of the groundhog.  That's what  that means.  And that is the height of land  immediately west of the Nass River.  And the boundary  should go along that and then down to the creek that  comes into the -- from the left just above the name  Niist.  On your map?  On this map, yes.  And Walter also identified the name  of that creek.  It was my effort to try and locate a  number of creeks -- or creeks or rivers in this area.  And Walter was able to identify that that creek, in  fact, is Xsi Maxhla Biluust Maawxs.  That's X-s-i  space M-a-x-h-1-a space B-i-1-u-u-s-t --  :  I'm sorry.  B-i-1?  B-i-1-u-u-s-t space M-a-a-w-x-s.  And when did Walter Blackwater do that? 7803  N. Sterritt (for Plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Rush  1 A   In 1987.  And I don't recall just when it was that  2 that -- I believe it was in the fall of 1987.  3 Q   And that would be in your loose-leaf notes?  4 A   Yes.  5 Q   The changes you were instructed about, are they  6 reflected in that map 9A?  7 A   Yes.  8 Q   Do you just want to have a look on there?  9 A   Yes, they are.  This is the territory here, and the  10 change from the Nass River to the mountains on the  11 west appears right there.  12 THE COURT:  Has the territory been cut off at the top as well?  13 A   Yes.  Whereas the map that was in front of me extends  14 up there.  This is the area that I described with the  15 tree with the writing on it is in this area.  16 MR. RUSH:  17 Q   You're pointing on the northerly point of the  18 boundary --  19 THE COURT:  Yes.  2 0 MR. RUSH:  21 Q   — Of Kliyem Lax Haa?  22 A   Yes.  23 MR. RUSH:  All right.  Mr. Sterritt, could you fold that up.  24 May that be the next exhibit for identification,  25 please.  26 THE REGISTRAR:  Number 687 for I.D..  27 THE COURT:  Yes.  687.  28 THE REGISTRAR:  Yes, my lord.  29  30 (EXHIBIT 687 FOR IDENTIFCATION:  31 Draft Map - Kliyem Lax Haa Territory)  32  33 MR. GOLDIE:  Excuse me, my lord, if I understood the witness  34 correctly he said Walter Blackwater identified for him  35 the name of a stream in the fall of '87, but this map  36 seems to have written on it -- perhaps not the one  37 before the witness -- the name that he gave us.  It is  38 identified as being tendered with -- yes.  I'm  39 pointing out to him some handwriting on the lower left  40 hand corner of the map outside the area, but unless my  41 note is incorrect I thought that was what he  42 identified as the name given him by Mr. Walter  43 Blackwater, and if so the dates don't seem to match.  44 I wonder if my friend could clear that up.  Either  45 clear my misapprehension up or the addition to the  4 6              map.  47 7804  N. Sterritt (for Plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Rush  1  ]  MR. RUSH  2  Q  3  4  5  A  6  7  Q  8  9  10  A  11  Q  12  A  13  14  Q  15  A  16  17  Q  18  19  A  20  Q  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  Q  44  A  45  Q  46  A  47  In handwriting at the bottom of this map not contained  within the black boundary shown on the map is a  feature that is identified as Xsi Gwlal Txemsem.  Xsi Gwlal Txemsem.  That's X-s-i space G-w-l-a-1 space  T-x-e-m-s-e-m.  All right.  And then to the left of that printed name  is what appears to be a hand printed name.  Do you see  that?  Yes, I do.  All right.  And what is that name that appears there?  That's is Xsi Maxhla Biluust Maawxs. X-s-i space  M-a-x-h-1-a space B-i-1-u-u-s-t space M-a-a-w-x-s.  And what's there at the end of that?  That is AKA, and I think it's AKA for Xsi Gwlal  Txemsem.  X-s-i space G-w-l-a-1 space T-x-e-m-s-e-m.  And can you assist us with respect to that  identification of that feature?  Yes, I can.  Walter Blackwater cannot read maps, and he had told me  that there's a creek -- well, first of all there's an  area -- a mountain area called Maxhla Biluust Maawxs.  M-a-x-h-1-a space B-i-1-u-u-s-t space M-a-a-w-x-s.  And I tried to determine -- I had a good idea of where  the mountain was.  And then Albert Tait told me about  that mountain as well.  Walter Blackwater identified a  major creek in this area.  And the name on the map for  this creek, on the topographic map, is Muckaboo Creek.  M-u-c-k-a-b-o-o.  I drew not a final conclusion, but  made an assumption that Muckaboo might be related to  Maxhla Biluust.  That was the Anglicization of the  Gitksan name.  So I asked Walter if that could be Xsi  Maxhla Biluust Maawxs, and he said, "Yes, it could  be."  So I worked with Walter on this, and had a great  deal of difficulty narrowing down that that was the  actual creek.  I would show him a map, he would -- he  couldn't relate to map scales or anything.  He would  suddenly be veering off, and so what I did is I asked  him to walk from seventh cabin, and I asked him what  the name of that creek was, and he said that it is --  the creek at seventh cabin is Silgim Ba'ad Txemsem.  That's the name of the creek above the word Niist.  On this map?  On this map.  Which is in front of you, Exhibit 687, I think.  Yes.  Now, seventh cabin is located on this creek that  Mr. Goldie has identified with this writing of Xsi 7805  N. Sterritt (for Plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Rush  1 Maxhla Biluust Maawxs.  Seventh cabin, I know where  2 that is, and it's right at the M of Silgim Ba'ad  3 Txemsem.  4 Q   What did you conclude from that information?  5 A   Then I said, "Okay, Walter, walk me to Maxhla Biluust  6 Maawxs", because I've learned through the process that  7 the creek usually comes off the mountain of that name.  8 So he walked me up the river.  We got to eighth cabin.  9 Here's where I once again had quite a bit of  10 difficulty.  Eventually he described -- he said  11 there's a very low pass that you go over that is next  12 to or at Maxhla Biluust Maawxs.  He said when you go  13 over that and down into a very broad valley and a long  14 creek flowing down to the main Nass -- and he  15 indicated that to me in Gitksan -- he said that is Xsi  16 Maxhla Biluust Maawxs.  Now, that took me awhile.  I  17 mean, working that out probably took several sessions,  18 because I was doing other things as well, but several  19 sessions it was eventually resolved that the creek  20 above is Xsi Maxhla Biluust Maawxs.  Now, that creek  21 is on the map as Konigus Creek.  K-o-n-i-g-u-s.  22 That's why that's there.  It's part of the state of  23 information at the time, and later I narrow that down.  24 Q   All right.  Mr. Sterritt, Xsi Maxhla Biluust Maawxs,  25 as it's written in the map that's in front of you, is  26 I take it from your evidence, not located at the place  27 where that is written?  28 A   That's correct.  29 Q   It's located, on the information you received from Mr.  30 Walter Blackwater, at a point that is marked on the  31 map as Konigus Creek?  32 A   Yes.  33 Q   And now by map I'm here referring to the NTS  34 government map?  35 A   Yes.  36 Q   Is the Konigus Creek marked with a Gitksan name on the  37 map that's in front of you, 687?  38 A   Yes.  39 Q   And what is that?  40 A   That is Luu Silgim Ba'ad -- well, the Luu isn't there.  41 Silgim Ba'ad Txemsem.  It's S-i-1-g-i-m space  42 B-a-'-a-d space T-x-e-m-s-e-m.  43 Q   And I take it that name is incorrectly placed on the  44 map that's before you?  45 A   Yes, it is.  4 6 Q   And where should that be.  47 A   It should be on Muckaboo Creek.  M-u-c-k-a-b-o-o. 7806  N. Sterritt (for Plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Rush  1  Q  2  3  A  4  Q  5  A  6  MR. GOLDIE  7  A  8  1  9  10  MR. GOLDIE  11  12  MR. RUSH:  13  Q  14  15  16  i  17  A   '  18  Q  19  20  21  22  A  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  Q  30  A  31  Q  32  ]  33  34  35  A  36  37  Q  38  39  40  41  42  43  A   '  44  Q  45  A  46  47  Q  And Muckaboo Creek previously where Xsi Maxhla  Biluust -- give us the name -- is that --  That's right.  That is Muckaboo Creek?  Yes.  :  So these two names are switched?  Yes.  The handwritten Gitksan name and the printed  Gitksan name on the upper creek, they should be  switched.  :  And that switching took place in the fall of 1987,  is that right?  Now, Mr. Sterritt, in terms of the writing that  appears on the map at Muckaboo Creek, can you tell the  court when it was that you were instructed by Mr.  Walter Blackwater about that feature?  Well —  Or at least when you deduced that the feature was in  that place?  Subsequently you learned it was  incorrect, but can you give us a date when you came by  that information?  I think I learned that there was a creek by that name  considerably earlier than that, and as to where it was  located I thought I had it, but I realized that there  was something missing.  How much sooner, like how long  after I learned about the name of the mountain that I  learned about the name of the creek I can't say, but I  would say about two and a half, three years ago.  So is this 1985, '86?  Yes.  I think about then.  Now, can you say when you received information from  Mr. Blackwater that led you to conclude at that time  that Muckaboo Creek went by the name that's written  there?  In the fall of '87, perhaps in the early months of  '88.  All right.  Well, if this map was attached to the --  as I'm instructed, was attached to the interrogatory  response of Kliyem Lax Haa in January of 1987, January  27th of '87, does that help in determining when you  came by the information that is contained on this map  and written there?  Well, the information on this was prior to that.  Yes, can you determine about when it was?  You mean all of the information or the information we  are talking about?  No, just the information to that one feature, the one 7807  N. Sterritt (for Plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Rush  1 creek you're discussing?  2 A   You mean Muckaboo Creek?  3 Q   Yes.  This name here that's handwritten on.  4 A   Oh, I think that I was -- I think about three years  5 ago I was drawing -- making a judgment call that  6 Muckaboo and Xsi Maxhla Biluust Maawxs may be the same  7 creek.  8 Q   I see.  All right.  9 A  And -- but we're also -- the common usage of these  10 creeks in this area, or the main features by Walter  11 Blackwater is the prefixes Ba'ad Txemsem.  There's  12 about six different Nass Rivers, or what they call  13 Nass Rivers in the area, and I was trying to sort that  14 out as well, but I had also come to a conclusion that  15 this -- that this was a creek in the area.  16 Q   That is Xsi Maxhla Biluust?  17 A   Yes, in the area.  And it was Muckaboo Creek, but that  18 was not right.  I mean, I've explained that already.  19 Q   All right.  Then in the latter part of 1987 or the  20 early part of 1988 Mr. Walter Blackwater was able --  21 instructed you --  22 MR. GOLDIE:  Well, excuse me.  I object to the word instructed.  23 The process doesn't lend itself to that word.  24 MR. RUSH:  Well, I don't know why not.  25 MR. GOLDIE:  No.  The technical objection is that the question  26 is a leading one by the use of that word.  2 7 MR. RUSH:  28 Q   When did you learn, Mr. Sterritt, the information that  29 Mr. Walter Blackwater passed on to you that Xsi Maxhla  30 Biluust was at Konigus Creek?  31 A   In the fall of 1987.  32 MR. RUSH:  Can that be the next exhibit, please, for  33 identification.  It is?  34 THE REGISTRAR:  Yes.  687.  35 MR. GOLDIE:  I wonder if the witness could assist us one step  36 further.  That is, can he identify the author of the  37 handwritten material on the map?  3 8 MR. RUSH:  39 Q   There is handwriting on the map, is there?  40 A   Yes.  41 Q   And can you just identify the names that are on the  42 map?  43 MR. GOLDIE:  Just who the author is.  44 MR. RUSH:  Well, there may be more than one author.  45 MR. GOLDIE:  All right.  Thank you.  46 A   The handwriting that appears as a reproduction along  47 with the print -- 7808  N. Sterritt (for Plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Rush  1  MR. RUSH:  2  Q  3  A  4  Q  5  6  A  7  8  9  Q  10  A  11  Q  12  13  14  15  16  17  THE COURT  18  MR. RUSH:  19  A  20  Q  21  A  22  Q  23  A  24  Q  25  26  27  A  28  Q  29  30  31  A  32  33  Q  34  35  36  37  A  38  39  40  Q  41  42  43  A  44  45  46  Q  47  A  Yes, that's the question.  -- I would say is the printing of Marvin George.  Is all the handwriting on there apparently that of  Marvin George?  No.  I've -- on the lower right corner of mine the  name Kliyem Lax Haa is my printing.  It's in red  pencil on this.  That's not on the photo reproduction of it?  No.  All right.  Thank you.  Mr. Sterritt, I want to show  you a map now stamped "Draft Copy" and identified in  the upper right hand corner number two, Territory of  Luutkuudjiiwux Madii Lii.  And Luutkuudjiiwux is  spelled L-u-u-t-k-u-u-d-j-i-i-w-u-x, and Madii Lii,  M-a-d-i-i new word L-i-i.  :  M-a-d-d-i?  M-a-d-i-i L-i-i.  Yes, I do.  All right.  And do you know who drew this map?  Yes.  Who?  I did.  And there are features that are labelled on this map  in Gitksan.  Is that printing that you put on this  map?  Yes, it is.  All right.  And the area that's contained by the black  line that's shown on this map, can you tell us what  area that is?  It's the Territory of Luutkuudjiiwux east of Hazelton  on the north side of the Suskwa, S-u-s-k-w-a, River.  All right.  And the features that are identified in  Gitksan, and arrow directing to certain features that  are shown on this map, can you tell us who provided  you with information about those features?  Percy Sterritt, Steve Robinson, Ben Mackenzie, David  Green, Mary Moore, my father, Neil B. Sterritt.  I  think that's about it.  And can you give us the place where this information  would be contained in your notes, and the dates  approximately when it was provided to you?  Percy -- most of that material would be in my field  books.  It would appear in the white binder maps.  It  would -- some of it could be in topographic sheets.  Okay.  And the holder of the name Luutkuudjiiwux?  Ben Mackenzie. 7809  N. Sterritt (for Plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Rush  1  Q  2  A  3  Q  4  5  A  6  7  8  9  10  11  12  Q  13  A  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  THE COURT  30  MR. RUSH:  31  Q  32  A  33  34  35  36  37  Q  38  A  39  40  Q  41  A  42  Q  43  44  45  46  47  All right.  It also appears in loose-leaf notes from 1979.  All right.  Now, Mr. Sterritt, were changes made or  adjustments made to that boundary?  Yes.  The -- the map that is here reflects a -- a  misunderstanding on my part based on how we name  creeks and mountains, or creeks in relation to  mountains.  The information I had originally was  accurate and -- but there was an area that I had  difficulty resolving, and I made an assumption here  that I was later informed was incorrect.  All right.  What was that?  The name is Xsa Hahla Gyoot'm Andoo'o.  That's X-s-a  space H-a-h-1-a space G-y-o-o-t-'-m space  A-n-d-o-o-'-o.  Now, Andoo'o always means on the other  side of the mountain, and if there's a creek that name  then there's usually another one without that, because  it's the main one on this side -- on the other side of  the mountain.  There are three Xsa Hahla Gyoots.  There's Wii Xsa Hahla Gyoot.  That's W-i-i space X-s-a  space H-a-h-1-a space G-y-o-o-t.  That means the big  Xsa Hahla Gyoot.  There's Gwiis Xsa Hahla Gyoot.  G-w-i-i-s space X-s-a space H-a-h-1-a space Gyoot.  And that means the small Xsa Hahla Gyoot.  And then  there's the one on the other side, the Xsa Hahla  Gyoot'm Andoo'o.  So there is three of them.  When I  put this together I assumed that this was Nichyeskwa  Creek.  N-i-c-h-y-e-s-k-w-a.  :  E-s-k-w-a?  That's as it's labelled on this map?  It appears on topographic maps as that, because it was  on the other side and came from that general range of  mountains that that should be Xsa Hahla Gyoot'm  Andoo'o, the one on the other side.  On reviewing my  earlier notes with Ben Mackenzie --  When did that review occur?  During 19 -- sometime late in 1987, as well as meeting  with and talking to Arthur Ridgedale.  Is he a hereditary chief?  Yes.  And also talking to Walter Wilson who owns the  territory on the north side of Thoen Mountain,  T-h-o-e-n, I realized that Luutkuudjiiwux does not go  over on that side and on the north side of Thoen  Mountain, Thoen Mountain being Hahla Gyoot.  H-a-h-1-a  space G-y-o-o-t. 7810  N. Sterritt (for Plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Rush  1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  THE COURT:  I'm sorry.  A   H-a-h-1-a space G-y-o-o-t.  And that -- and that Xsa  Hahla Gyoot'm Andoo'o was in fact Denison Creek.  D-e-n-i-s-o-n.  MR. RUSH:  Q   Denison being a creek that's named on the topographic  map?  A   Yes.  THE COURT:  You assumed that it wasn't Denison?  A   That's right.  THE COURT:  Yes.  MR. RUSH:  Q   Now, did that review result in an adjustment of the  boundary in this territory?  A   Yes, it did.  The boundary followed the height of land  north of the Suskwa River rather than going over the  height of land.  Q   Were other adjustments made as a result of further  information you received about that territory?  A   Yes.  If you follow the western --  THE COURT:  I'm sorry, Mr. Rush, but we can hear the other  adjustments after the break.  MR. RUSH:  Yes.  THE COURT:  Thank you.  THE REGISTRAR:  Order in court.  Court will recess.  (PROCEEDINGS ADJOURNED)  I hereby certify the foregoing to be  a true and accurate transcript of the  proceedings herein to the best of my  skill and ability.  Peri McHale, Official Reporter  UNITED REPORTING SERVICE LTD.  (PROCEEDINGS RESUMED PURSUANT TO AN ADJOURNMENT) 7811  N. Sterritt (for Plaintiff)  In chief by Mr. Rush  1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  THE REGISTRAR:  Order in court.  THE COURT:  I wonder if I might intrude for a moment, Mr. Rush,  just to say that with some embarrassment I think that  it will be very difficult to sit next Monday morning.  There is going to be a ceremony in the Court of Appeal  to welcome at least Madam Justice Southin and Mr.  Justice Toy and perhaps myself, and there are a number  of other matters I want to look after.  I would like,  if it is convenient to counsel, not to sit Monday  morning but to resume at 2:00 in the afternoon.  Will  that be difficult for anyone?  MR. RUSH:  Yes, there is no difficulty with that.  THE COURT:  Would counsel prefer to start at two rather than  take the whole day off?  MR. RUSH:  Yes, I think we prefer to start at two.  THE COURT:  Yes, all right.  I should mention in addition a very  delicate subject that I am most reluctant to embark  upon, but I am told there is some possibility of a  strike of B.C.G.E.U. on Monday.  A letter has been  received from counsel for the B.C.G.E.U. saying that  there will be no picketing at the courthouse, at least  where there is only -- where the building is only used  for courthouse purposes.  There will be some  variations of that in locations where the courthouse  is used for other purposes as well.  But for the  purposes of this case I can tell counsel that I am  informed by counsel for the B.C.G.E.U. that there will  be no picketing at this courthouse.  All right, thank  you.  I should add, unless the Supreme Court of Canada  in the meantime delivers judgment on an appeal that  was argued last April that changes the lot.  Thank  you.  MR. RUSH:  Q    Now, Mr. Sterritt, you mentioned Art Risdale.  What  house is Art Risdale in?  A    In the house of Luutkuudjiiwux.  Q    Is he a chief of that house?  A    Yes, he is.  Do you have the number for that?  THE REGISTRAR:  Number 43 on the plaintiff's list.  MR. RUSH:  44.  THE REGISTRAR:  I have 43 on mine.  MR. RUSH:  Mine is 44 but in numerical sequence it should be 43,  if you can figure that one out.  My list says 44.  THE COURT:  I am not going to try.  MR. GOLDIE:  That's Monday morning gone.  MR. RUSH: 7812  N. Sterritt (for Plaintiff)  In chief by Mr. Rush  1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  MR.  Q    Now, Mr. Sterritt, would you have a look at 9A,  please, and if you can tell us if the changes that you  are instructed about are reflected in the boundary  description that's shown on that overlay?  A    Yes, they are.  Q    All right.  Now, you received information about this  boundary that you have described as adjusted in the  manner that you have described from the chiefs you  have indicated.  Can you just tell us what period of  time it was that you received that information?  A    Leading to the adjustment?  Q    Yes?  A    The fall of 1987 and through into the spring of  1988.  Q    Early spring of '88?  A    Yes, I believe so, and that would be from Art  Risdale, Mary Moore, I think I talked to Percy  Sterritt again about some areas there.  Q    And you indicated you had that conversation with Ben  McKenzie?  A    In 1979.  Q    In '79?  A    Yes.  RUSH:  All right  identification?  Yes.  May this be the next exhibit, please, for  THE COURT  THE REGISTRAR:  (EX.  That will be 6?  - DRAFT MAP 'ñ†  MADII LII)  for identification.  TERRITORY LUUTKUUDJIIWUX AT  MR. RUSH:  If you will just pause, my lord, I -- this map was a  map drawn by Mr. Sterritt and the names placed on it  by Mr. Sterritt.  That's directly identified and I  don't think need to be identified.  MR. GOLDIE:  I agree with that.  THE COURT:  All right.  68 8.  MR.  RUSH:  Q  A  Q  A  Now, Mr. Sterritt, I want to show you another map  that's labelled Schedule C and the name Luutkuudjiiwux  in the bottom right-hand corner and stamped draft  copy.  Can you identify the area that's outlined in  black on this copy, please?  Yes, I can.  And what is that area, please?  That's the territory of Luutkuudjiiwux on the west  side of the Skeena directly opposite Hazelton. 7813  N. Sterritt (for Plaintiff)  In chief by Mr. Rush  1 Q    All right.  Was the area that's encompassed by the  2 black line drawn by Marvin George on the basis from  3 information that you provided to him?  4 A    Yes, it is.  5 Q    And is that information that you provided to him  6 information you received from hereditary chiefs?  7 A    Yes.  8 Q    And which hereditary chiefs are the chiefs?  9 A    From Ben McKenzie.  10 Q    Just pause a second.  If you will just step off the  11 witness stand and just point out to his lordship the  12 area where this territory is located on 9A?  13 A    Hazelton is located right here and the territory  14 that I am referring to is immediately west.  15 THE COURT:  Yes.  16 MR. MACAULAY:  It is 30B on the overlay, my lord.  17 THE COURT:  Yes.  18 MR. RUSH:  Well, let's not confuse two things, my lord.  The  19 area that I was asking Mr. Sterritt to point out is  20 the area on overlay map 9A which as I understand this  21 map provided by Mr. Macaulay is not necessarily that  22 which is on 9A.  23 THE COURT:  Oh, no.  2 4 MR. RUSH:  25 Q    Now, Mr. Sterritt, you indicated information was  26 received by you from Ben McKenzie Senior.  By anyone  27 else, please?  28 A    Yes, by Mary Johnson -- oh, I should go back.  I am  29 sorry, I am confusing the recent work and the earlier  30 work.  31 Q    I am here referring to the earlier work, please?  32 A    Yes.  Joshua Campbell.  33 MR. GOLDIE:  You are still including Ben McKenzie as part of  34 that?  35 MR. RUSH:  36 Q    You are still including Ben McKenzie as part of your  37 earlier information?  38 A    Yes.  3 9 Q    And Joshua Campbell?  4 0 A    Joshua Campbell.  41 Q    Yes?  42 A    Fanny Smith, and that would be material that appears  43 in my field books.  I know I talked to Art Mowat and I  44 think there may be entries in my field books with Art  45 Mowat or an entry.  46 Q    Are there topo maps with reference to this territory  47 or topo dates I should say? 7814  N. Sterritt (for Plaintiff)  In chief by Mr. Rush  1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  A    Yes, I think there will be some.  Q    Now, was this boundary adjusted at later time as a  result of information you obtained?  A    No.  This boundary remains the same with a minor  interpretation on the north -- northern boundary  towards the west and it is simply an interpretation of  height of land.  It is very minor.  Q    And was that interpretation one that is from  information that you received?  A    No.  It was based on resolution of the height of  land based on topographic maps.  It is very minor but  there was no change based on this map.  Q    There was no change based on new information?  A    No change based on new information.  Q    All right.  Now, may I ask you to look at overlay  map 9A and if the information you received from the  hereditary chiefs is reflected in the boundary  description as shown on that overlay?  A    Yes, it is.  MR. RUSH:  Thank you.  May this be the next exhibit, my lord, as  for identification?  THE COURT:  Yes.  THE REGISTRAR:  689 for identification, my lord.  (EX. 68 9 FOR I.D.  DRAFT MAP - TERRITORY  LUUTKUUDJIIWUX)  MR.  RUSH:  Q  A  A  Q  A  Q  A  Now, Mr. Sterritt, I want to show you another map  and it is marked in the bottom right-hand corner Wii  Minosik, W-i-i new word M-i-n-o-s-i-k.  Again, it is  stamped draft copy.  I wonder if you can identify this  for me, please.  What does this show?  This shows a territory on the south side of the  Babine River just east of the village of Kisgagas.  And does that area show -- does that area abut on  the Babine River?  Yes, it does.  Now, you received information from hereditary chiefs  in respect of this area?  I -- yes.  Can you just describe who it was that you obtained  that information from?  The person who I talked to about or one of the  persons was David Green.  All right.  And is the information that you obtained  from him contained in your field notes? 7815  N. Sterritt (for Plaintiff)  In chief by Mr. Rush  1 A    Yes, it would be in my -- one of my field books.  2 Q    And can you give us a date when that occurred?  3 A    I would think in the period about 1983 or '84.  4 Q    Now, was there anyone else that you talked about  5 with respect to this area in that time frame I am  6 talking about?  7 A    Yes, and well prior to that in terms of geographic  8 information, the place names.  I am trying to  9 recall -- David Gunanoot -- I can't remember the  10 others.  There are several others who provided the  11 same information about the main creek in this  12 territory, but that's all I can remember right now.  13 Q    All right.  Subsequently, were you given information  14 from hereditary chiefs about the territory in this  15 area?  16 A    Yes.  17 Q    All right.  And who instructed or who told you about  18 that?  19 A    Robert Jackson.  20 Q    Yes?  21 A    Well, actually Robert was one of the people who gave  22 me information earlier and also further information  23 later.  Robert Jackson Senior, Joshua McLean, James  24 Morrison, Sam Morrison I think.  That's all that I  25 recall at this time.  26 Q    All right.  Now, Robert Jackson Senior, the  27 information that he provided to you on a later  28 occasion, is that contained in the loose-leaf notes?  29 A    Yes.  30 Q    And would that be in 1987?  31 A    Yes, I believe so.  32 Q    And in terms of James Morrison, the information he  33 provided to you, is that in the field books or in the  34 field notes -- or the loose-leaf notes?  35 A    I think it will be in my loose-leaf notes.  3 6 Q    And about when?  37 A    1987, fall of 1987.  38 Q    Joshua McLean, that is the information you received  39 from him in loose-leaf notes?  40 A    Yes.  41 Q    And is that in the early part of 1988?  42 A    It is in the spring of 1988, yes.  43 Q    Did you receive any further information from David  44 Gunanoot about this area?  45 A    Yes, but — well, David died in the fall of 1987,  46 and I don't recall if I had any discussions about this  47 area with him in mid 1987. 7816  N. Sterritt (for Plaintiff)  In chief by Mr. Rush  1 Q    Now, as a result of the information you received  2 from Robert Jackson Senior, James Morrison and Joshua  3 McLean, what did this lead you to conclude about this  4 area?  5 A    Well, this map represents insufficient information  6 and an extrapolation on my part.  The information of  7 the people you have just mentioned all is that it is  8 the territory of Nii Kyap and also an adjustment of  9 the boundary was necessary, and the detailed  10 information of that comes -- appears in the notes with  11 Joshua McLean who is a member of the House of Nii  12 Kyap.  13 Q    Now, this area is indicated as Wii Minosik's.  The  14 subsequent information led you to conclude that this  15 area was that of Nii Kyap?  16 A    Yes.  17 Q    In terms of the description that is shown on this  18 map, did your information -- your subsequent  19 information lead to any adjustments in terms of the  20 boundaries as it is delineated there?  21 A    Yes, it does.  22 Q    And what changes occurred as a result of that?  23 A    The creek on the right-hand side of the territory  24 labelled Xsi matsi ho'ot ando'o, X-s-i space m-a-t-s-i  25 space h-o-'-o-t space a-n-d-o-'-o.  On the topographic  26 maps that is Thomlinson Creek, T-h-o-m-l-i-n-s-o-n,  27 and that is the boundary of Nii Kyap.  2 8 Q    And who?  29 A   And -- between Nii Kyap and Axtii dzeek, A-x-t-i-i  30 space d-z-e-e-k.  And so there should be an adjustment  31 there coming up to the height of land at the head of  32 that creek.  There is actually a tributary near the  33 head of that creek that it departs from and then goes  34 up to the height of land and then basically follows  35 the height of land west to go down from the height of  36 land to the head of a creek that appears on the  37 topographic map as Shegisic, S-h-e-g-i-s-i-c, and  38 there is a lake at the head of that which is called  39 Dam xsi geetsik.  Now, on this map there is -- well, I  40 will spell Dam xsi geetsik.  D-a-m space x-s-i  41 space --  42 THE COURT:  I am sorry, D-a-m?  43 THE WITNESS:  Space x-s-i space g-e-e-t-s-i-k.  Now, that's a  44 larger map -- I mean, a larger lake.  That is not  45 located properly.  That should appear on the small  46 lake almost directly south about six inches from that  47 lake.  And that lake is at the head of Shegisic which 7817  N. Sterritt (for Plaintiff)  In chief by Mr. Rush  1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  is what appears on the topographic map. And then the  boundary runs down Shegisic Creek. In Gitksan, that  is Xsi getsit, X-s-i space g-e-t-s-i-t. The boundary  runs down Shegisic Creek to the Skeena River and then  up the Skeena River to the Babine River and then back  up the Babine River to Thomlinson Creek, the mouth of  Thomlinson Creek.  MR.  RUSH  Q  THE  THE  THE  MR.  Now, I'd like you to look at 9A and ask if 9A  reflects the adjustments about which you were  instructed?  The territory is on the south side of the Babine and  follows that line and, yes, that does reflect the  changes.  What is the purple line?  WITNESS:  The map that is in front of me goes like so and  that represents that.  Yes, thank you.  A  COURT:  MR.  THE  THE  MR.  COURT  RUSH:  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  RUSH:  COURT  And was this map drawn by you?  No.  It was drawn by Marvin George?  Yes.  Because of information that you provided to him that  you had received from hereditary chiefs?  Yes.  Now, may this map be marked as an exhibit for  identification, please?  690.  REGISTRAR:  690 for I.D.  (EX. 690 FOR I.D.  DRAFT MAP - TERRITORY WII MINOSIK)  RUSH:  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  I'd like now to show you a map, Mr. Sterritt, that  indicates -- let's, if you will, just -- yes, this is  labelled Schedule C and is marked in the back side in  the lower right-hand corner, Haaxw, H-a-a-x-w, and  stamped draft copy on the face.  Do you recognize what  this map depicts, Mr. Sterritt?  Yes, I do.  And can you tell the court what it is?  It's a territory of Haaxw, H-a-a-x-w, on the east  side of the Skeena just north of Kispiox village.  All right.  And who drew this map?  I don't recognize the printing.  It may be the  printing of Marvin George but I don't recognize it, 781?  1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  N. Sterritt (for Plaintiff)  In chief by Mr. Rush  and also the lines, but I think it is Marvin George  but I am not positive about that.  Was information that you received from a hereditary  chief or more than one hereditary chief information  that is contained on -- in the depiction of the area  that's shown on that map?  Yes.  And can you tell us which hereditary chiefs gave you  information about this area?  Yes.  My father, Neil Sterritt, said that he had  been talking to Thomas Wright, and that Thomas Wright  told him that Haaxw, H-a-a-x-w, had territory between  Xsa'ansi mitsitkw which is spelled X-s-a-'-a-n-s --  I am sorry, X-s-a?  WITNESS:  '-a-n-s-i space m-i-t-s-i-t-k-w, and Xsan sisook,  X-s-a-n space s-i-s-o-o-k, and I made a record of  that.  THE  THE  MR.  A  Q  A  COURT:  RUSH:  Q  A  MR.  MR.  THE  MR.  Where would that be found?  It's in a field book, one of my more recent field  books.  Q    Can you give us an approximate date of that?  A    I think in probably 1984, 1985.  Q    All right.  Thank you.  A    I talked to Martha Brown, that's the former  plaintiff, Kliyem lax haa, and asked her because she  had been married to a former Haaxw, H-a-a-x-w, about  this and she said, yes, Haaxw had a cabin in that area  and that he did trap in that area.  And I made an  assumption that based on the territory described to my  father by Thomas Wright and what Martha had said, that  there was an area here that belonged to Haaxw.  Q    And the information that you had received from  Martha Brown, what date would you put on that?  A   About the same time, almost -- I would say within  weeks, if not less, of the time that my dad talked to  me about Thomas Wright's information.  RUSH:  And — all right.  GOLDIE:  '84, '85?  WITNESS:  Yes.  RUSH:  Q    Now, subsequent to that, you had further discussions  which led to adjustments?  A    Yes.  Q    Or a change in this area; is that right?  A    Yes.  Q    And who did you have those discussions with? 7819  N. Sterritt (for Plaintiff)  In chief by Mr. Rush  1 A    I talked to Abel Brown and Abel is from the House of  2 Gutginuxw.  3 Q    That's 14 on the plaintiff's list.  Yes?  4 A    Whose territory surrounds this area, and asked him  5 if he knew anything about that.  And he said that  6 Haaxw, H-a-a-x-w, had a fishing site along the Skeena  7 within that area and was in that area, had a cabin,  8 but that he did not own the territory in that area.  9 And so he had fishing rights there and may have, with  10 the permission of the house, done little more than  11 that but he did not own that territory.  And as a  12 result, I adjusted that area to reflect that it was  13 the territory of Gutginuxw and that there is a fishing  14 site in that area belonging to Haaxw.  15 Q    And does map -- overlay map 9A show that that area  16 is the territory of Gutginuxw, that is to say, the  17 area that's depicted in the small draft copy map in  18 front of you?  19 A    Yes.  I should add that I -- the map doesn't  20 necessarily reflect that Haaxw has a fishing site in  21 that area.  22 Q    The map that's in front of you?  23 A    But there has been evidence of that house.  No, the  24 adjustment that was made subsequently.  But there has  25 been evidence about Haaxw owning fishing sites within  26 that area.  27 Q    Now, the discussion that you had with Abel Brown,  28 when did that occur?  29 A    In the spring of 1988.  30 Q    And is that recorded in a field book or in a  31 loose-leaf note?  32 A    It is in a loose-leaf note.  33 Q    And would that be in early or late spring of '88,  34 can you recall?  35 A    Late spring, I think.  36 Q    All right.  And what name if any does Abel Brown  37 have?  38 A    His name is Anda ap, that's A-n-d-a space a-p.  39 Q    Okay.  And in terms of the information that you were  40 provided, does map 9A accurately reflect the boundary  41 in territorial ownership in that area that's shown in  42 the small draft copy?  43 A    Yes, it does.  44 Q    Thank you.  45 A    I should mention that I think I also had a  46 discussion earlier with Abel and he seemed puzzled by  47 it and that will appear I think in a field book about 7820  N. Sterritt (for Plaintiff)  In chief by Mr. Rush  1 the same time that I talked to Martha and my father.  2 And when I discussed it with him later, he said, no,  3 I -- I have thought about this and it is in connection  4 with the fishing site on the river.  5 Q    That's when you said Abel, that's Abel Brown; is it?  6 A   Abel Brown, yes.  7 MR. RUSH:  All right.  8 MR. GOLDIE:  My lord, there never was a map delivered with an  9 interrogatory response and this is the first time we  10 have seen this particular document.  I wonder if my  11 friend would be good enough to identify the authorship  12 of the printing in the middle of the map Delgamuukw  13 Haaxw because that appears to be added in pencil.  If  14 the witness is aware of it.  15 MR. RUSH:  The witness has indicated he thinks it is the writing  16 of Marvin George but I don't think his evidence goes  17 beyond that, and that similarly is my understanding.  18 I cannot confirm that it is Marvin George's writing.  19 MR. GOLDIE:  I thought that his uncertainty related to the  20 drawing of the map, but it includes the whole thing  21 then.  22 MR. RUSH:  23 Q    I think that was your evidence, was it not, Mr.  24 Sterritt, that it not only included the depiction, the  25 black line, but as well the handwriting that's  26 contained within the black line?  27  28 MR. GOLDIE:  There seems to be a piece torn off the bottom of  29 that map.  I wonder if my friend has any knowledge of  30  31 MR.  32 Q    I have none.  Do you have any information, Mr.  33 Sterritt, about what appears to be a line -- a torn  34 line on the bottom of this?  35 A    No, I don't.  36 MR. GOLDIE:  Are you —  37 MR. RUSH:  May that be an exhibit for identification, please?  3 8 THE COURT:  Yes.  39 THE REGISTRAR:  To be identification number 691.  40  41 (EX. 691 FOR I.D. - DRAFT MAP - TERRITORY HAAXW)  42 MR. RUSH:  43 Q    Now, Mr. Sterritt, I am going to show you another  44 map that is marked or labelled Schedule C, Gwagl'lo is  45 the handwritten name in the bottom right,  46 G-w-a-g-1-'-l-o, on the map stamped draft copy.  Do  47 you recognize what is shown in this map, Mr. Sterritt?  A  Yes.  GOLDIE:  There  that map  that?  RUSH:  Q  I have 7821  N. Sterritt (for Plaintiff)  In chief by Mr. Rush  1 A    Yes, I do.  2 Q    And what do you understand the area contained by the  3 black line on that map to be or to represent?  4 A    This is a map based on limited information of the  5 territory of Gwagl'lo.  6 Q    Gwagl'lo is a Gitksan hereditary chief?  7 A    Yes.  8 Q    And that is number 17 on the plaintiff's list.  Mr.  9 Sterritt, perhaps you could tell us something of the  10 information -- early information received concerning  11 this?  12 A    Yes.  I had talked to Stanley Williams in 1980 or  13 '81.  I think there is information from Eli Turner and  14 Ken Harris about this territory.  That would be more  15 topographical information.  I talked to David Milton.  16 I don't know whether I mentioned Ernie Hyzims already,  17 that's H-y-z-i-m-s.  18 Q    Kept recordings of the discussion you had with these  19 people?  20 A    Yes, that will appear on my very early notebooks and  21 also I think on some loose-leaf notes from very early,  22 as well as in topographic sheets and on the white  23 binder maps.  And this map represents extrapolations  24 that I made from information that I had.  I should  25 also mention that I did a helicopter flight to the  26 area in the summer of 1983 with Ernie Hyzims and David  27 Milton, and that appears in my field book.  28 Q    Now, you obtained information about this territory  29 on a subsequent date that led to adjustments in the  30 boundary that's shown on this map; is that so?  31 A    Yes.  I -- last winter, the winter of 1988, I drove  32 to the area three times with Stanley Williams and  33 Gideon Johnson, and Ernie Hyzims.  34 Q    Why did you do that?  35 A    Because I wanted to get further detail on the  36 territory.  I was following up on the request of the  37 lawyers that I do more detailed work on each of the  38 territories.  I wanted to check out some information  39 that I had and also see what further information there  40 was to obtain.  41 Q    And where did you drive on those occasions?  42 A    See the north end of the map there is a -- the  43 writing Miinhl dekwit, M-i-i-n-h-1 space  d-e-k-w-i-t,  44 and there is a road that runs south from the east side  45 of that hill approximately a mile and a half.  There  46 is a road that goes much farther but in the winter we  47 could only get so far due to the depth of the snow.  I 7822  N. Sterritt (for Plaintiff)  In chief by Mr. Rush  1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  think we went about a mile and a half south of there  and from there we were able to see features in almost  all directions that -- from that site that helped me  to map this territory much more accurately and we  identified boundaries quite accurately.  Q    And who was it that identified those boundaries to  you?  A    Ernie Hyzims who's Gwagl'lo, Stanley Williams,  Gideon Johnson helped on the first two days, but the  reason that I went three days in a row was because the  weather was poor and the clouds were rising and  falling and we couldn't see some of the higher  features, and on the third day we were able to with  Ernie Hyzims.  Q    All right.  A    Ernie Hyzims and a subsequent interview with Chris  Mark.  MR. GOLDIE:  Chris who?  THE WITNESS:  Chris Mark.  MR. RUSH:  Q    Now, you are leaving those three motor trips into  the area that you indicated, and you're talking about  information you received from Ernie Hyzims and Chris  Mark on a subsequent occasion; is that right?  A    I think it was on the same day but it was back in  Kitseguecla on the same day.  These notes, probably  some of them, may appear with Ernie Hyzims but I think  where they appear is in the notes of Stanley Williams  because I just kept everything in there so I think  that you will find Chris Mark, Ernie Hyzims, Stanley,  Gideon Johnson all in that set of notes.  Q    Were there any other discussions that you had with  other chiefs that help you confirm topographic  features, boundary points in this area?  Yes.  I talked to Gideon Johnson's wife in that  period.  I talked to Eli Turner; I talked to David  Milton, and that's all that I recall right now that I  talked to to obtain further detail in this area.  And that's all in the same time frame, is it?  Yes, yes.  MR. RUSH:  All right.  And as a result of those discussions,  what did you come to understand to be the place of the  boundary on this territory?  MR. GOLDIE:  Before Mr. Sterritt answers that question, can he  A  Q  A  RUSH:  tell us the date of the discussions on the third day  of the three-day trip?  MR. RUSH: 7823  N. Sterritt (for Plaintiff)  In chief by Mr. Rush  1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  Q    I think your recollection was winter of 1988.  Can  you be more precise than that?  Is it in 1988,  January, February?  A    I think it is February.  Q    All right.  A    Yes.  You see the name Gwis Gyen, G-w-i-s space  G-y-e-n.  Q    This is the name on the map that's in front of you,  the draft map copy in front of you?  A    Yes.  If you come straight down below to the heavy  border, there is a creek there that comes in, flows  south to the border.  That border is actually --  underneath there is the Kitseguecla,  K-i-t-s-e-g-u-e-c-1-a.  That creek Xsan gokhl,  X-s-a-n space g-o-k-h-1 --  THE COURT:  I am sorry, X —  THE WITNESS:  X-s-a-n space g-o-k-h-1.  Directly opposite where  that creek comes in on the other side of a line is a  creek entering or flowing north into the Kitseguecla  River which appears on this map -- the Kitseguecla  River appears on this river as Xsi giist, X-s-i space  g-i-i-s-t.  The name of that creek on the south side  of the Kitseguecla River is Andoosdahl xsan gokhl,  A-n-d-o-o-s-d --  THE COURT:  S-t?  S-d-a-h-1 space x-s-a-n space g-o-k-h-1.  THE WITNESS  MR. RUSH:  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Now, is that feature a name shown on this map?  The feature is on this map but the name is not.  This is a name you learned subsequently and is in  the place where you have just indicated?  Yes.  All right.  And then Ernie Hyzims pointed out a hill to the west  while we were there called An liginsxw, that's A-n  space 1-i-g-i-n-s-x-w.  Does -- is that shown on this map?  It is the contours about an inch away from the word  Wii which is written approximately three inches left  of the Kitseguecla River.  There is three words there,  Lax wii yip, L-a-x space w-i-i space y-i-p, and you  can see a contour which demonstrates a hill.  That's  the mountain or the top of the hill that I referred to  just now.  And Ernie said that the boundary runs from  the end of the creek that I described behind that hill  and then down to the main creek on the left which is  labelled Xsi sii yuun or Sii yuun, S-i-i space 7824  N. Sterritt (for Plaintiff)  In chief by Mr. Rush  1 y-u-u-n.  It goes down to that.  And that appears on  2 the topographic map as Kitsuns Creek, K-i-t-s-u-n-s.  3 Q    That's not written on this map?  4 A    It is not.  5 Q    Well —  6 A    Well, the boundary then runs up Xsi sii yuun in a  7 southerly direction to another creek called Xsi tsim  8 an makhl and, on this map, Xsi tsim an makhl is not  9 located properly.  It is spelled X-s-i space t-s-i-m  10 space a-n space m-a-k-h-1.  In fact, the boundary  11 follows the correct creek but it is labelled in the  12 wrong place, up to timber line and then runs around  13 the mountain called Sganis mehlasxw, that's  14 S-g-a-n-i-s space m-e-h-1-a-s-x-w, and around to the  15 tributary of the creek of Hanamuxw, H-a-n-a-m-u-x-w,  16 Olive Ryan or -- pardon me, Joan Ryan, which I  17 described when we talked about her territory either  18 yesterday or the day before.  There are other changes.  19 The southern area that extends on, there is a gap.  20 The territory of Guxsan, G-u-x-s-a-n, intervenes and  21 then there is another territory which is Lax seel,  22 L-a-x space s-e-e-1, or the Frog Tribe from  23 Kitseguecla of which Ernie Hyzims is responsible which  24 is south of there, and it is part of the reason for my  25 extrapolation or interpretation as you see it here at  26 the time.  And that territory from the information I  27 got is also further defined to extend and that I  28 should mention is under the name of Duubisxw,  29 D-u-u-b-i-s-x-w.  It appears in the affidavit of  30 Stanley Williams, and Stanley and Ernie assisted me in  31 defining this area in much more detail, and it runs  32 all the way to the west and connects up with the Eagle  33 territory very close to the name that appears on this  34 map at Haakasxw, H-a-a-k-a-s-x-w, and there are a  35 number of adjustments in that area as well but, in any  36 event, for the territory of Gwagl'lo, Ernie Hyzims,  37 the -- what I have described is the boundary that  38 appears on 9A and is the proper boundary.  39 Q    I wonder if you'd just go to 9A for me and point out  40 the Gwagl'lo territory as it is reflected on this map?  41 A    The village of Kitseguecla is right in here and  42 directly south is the territory of Gwagl'lo as I have  43 just described it.  44 Q    And the territory of Guxsan?  45 A   And it comes in and intervenes in between the piece  46 that came down like so and extends all the way out to  47 Sganis mehlasxw, S-g-a-n-i-s space m-e-h-1-a-s-x-w, 7825  N. Sterritt (for Plaintiff)  In chief by Mr. Rush  1 and comes back, and the territory of Duubisxw runs all  2 the way up to the Eagle territory that I described  3 yesterday.  It is a fairly complex area that was  4 sorted out with this work that was done with Ernie  5 Hyzims, David Milton, Stanley Williams, Chris Mark,  6 Gideon Johnson.  7 Q    And —  8 A   And Herb Wesley.  9 MR. RUSH:  Does —  10 MR. GOLDIE:  Herb, I am sorry, I didn't catch that.  11 MR. RUSH:  12 Q    Herb Wesley.  Does map 9A reflect the information  13 which you had received from those chiefs you have just  14 mentioned with regard to the territories of Gwagl'lo,  15 Guxsan and Duubisxw?  16 A    Yes, it does, and I should add the name Eli Turner.  17 MR. GOLDIE:  You had given that.  18 THE WITNESS:  And Gideon Johnson's wife.  19 MR. RUSH:  20 Q    All right.  Names that you have given, are those  21 names of Gitksan hereditary chiefs?  22 A    Yes.  23 MR. RUSH:  Thank you.  Now, if I can have this marked as the  24 next exhibit, my lord, for identification?  25 THE COURT:  692.  26 THE REGISTRAR:  692 for identification.  27  28 (EX. 692 FOR I.D. - DRAFT MAP - TERRITORY GWAGL'LO)  29  30 MR. RUSH:  Mr. Sterritt, in respect of the maps which I have  31 shown to you and have been marked as exhibits, that is  32 to say the 1 to 50,000 and the 1 to 100,000 scale  33 maps, some of which were exhibits attached to answers  34 to interrogatories, what can you say about the  35 accuracy and completeness of those maps?  36 MR. GOLDIE:  Well, on the basis of the evidence we have heard in  37 the past two days question the witness' qualifications  38 or ability to answer that question.  39 THE COURT:  What you are asking the witness to do I think, Mr.  40 Rush, if I understand you correctly, is to state  41 whether in his view the maps accurately reflect the  42 information that he received and which he has  43 described to us.  Is that what you are asking?  44 MR. RUSH:  Well, I think, yes.  I mean, there are clearly two  45 periods that he received information as an earlier  46 period and a later period and in respect of the  47 information as a whole of recognizing the two periods. 7826  1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  N. Sterritt (for Plaintiff)  In chief by Mr. Rush  THE COURT:  Actually my point isn't right.  What you are really  asking is whether as a result of this process Exhibit  9A accurately reflects the information he has  collected.  Isn't that what --  Yes.  Anything wrong with that, Mr. Goldie?  No.  That's all right.  Thank you.  MR.  THE  MR.  THE  MR.  RUSH:  COURT:  GOLDIE  COURT:  RUSH:  Q  Now, the process that you have described in respect  of the maps that I have just indicated, Mr. Sterritt,  what can you say about the way in which overlay map 9A  reflects the information that you received?  A    Map 9A is a reflection of a much more intensive  process with the hereditary chiefs where I was able to  review and update the early information -- earlier  information that I had and also to have them enter  into a process in which they were able to describe  accurately their territories, and map 9A accurately  describes the information that I gathered over a  period of time and checked between the period of  December of 1986 and 1988.  Q    And includes the names that you referred to?  A    The hereditary chiefs.  MR. GOLDIE:  My lord, I don't know that it needs to be said but  I think it's perfectly acceptable for the witness to  say, in my opinion the information that I gathered is  accurately found on map 9A.  I don't think it's within  his qualifications to state anything about the quality  of the information he received.  In other words, so  far as if that answer is intended to express an  opinion on whether the quality of the information is  any better in 1988 than it was before, I don't think  he is entitled to express that.  But I accept his  opinion with respect to the fact that the information  he's received is accurately found on map 9A.  THE COURT:  Well, I have heard witnesses express opinions about  confidence level that could be placed upon the date  upon which they base their information.  I think in  this case that may be a problem because he is -- that  would involve in part assessing the credibility and,  in that respect I don't mean honesty, but the general  credibility of the information source, but I think the  witness can answer the question that Mr. Rush is  posing but it's subject to, if I may say so, fairly  obvious qualifications.  I think you can finish the  wrap-up question if you wish, Mr. Rush, subject to 7827  N. Sterritt (for Plaintiff)  In chief by Mr. Rush  1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  MR.  RUSH:  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  THE COURT  MR. RUSH:  those qualifications.  Mr. Sterritt, you did not speak to each and every  one of the internal territories that's shown on map  9A; is that correct?  That's correct.  And the territories that you have not spoken to,  indeed all the territories that are shown on map 9A,  do they result from an affidavit having been prepared  by a hereditary chief?  Yes.  And do you understand -- do you understand that the  mapping of 9A reflects the affidavit of the hereditary  chief?  Yes.  All right.  And so far as your information goes,  does 9A reflect in respect of not only the maps that I  have referred you to in the last day and a half, the 1  to 50,000 and the 1 to 100,000, does 9A reflect in  respect of the internal territories the information  that you obtained with respect to the internal  territories and boundaries of the Gitksan hereditary  chiefs?  Yes, it does.  :  We will adjourn, Mr. Rush.  Thank you.  THE REGISTRAR:  Order in court.  Court will adjourn until  2:00 p.m.  (PROCEEDINGS ADJOURNED AT 12:34 P.M.)  I hereby certify the foregoing to be  a true and accurate transcript of the  proceedings herein, transcribed to the  best of my skill and ability.  TANNIS DEFOE, Official Reporter 782?  N. Sterritt (for Plaintiff)  In chief by Mr. Rush  1 United Reporting Service Ltd.  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32 (PROCEEDINGS RESUMED PURSUANT TO LUNCHEON RECESS)  33  34 THE REGISTRAR:  Calling Delgamuukw versus Her Majesty the Queen  35 at bar, my lord.  3 6    THE COURT:  Mr. Rush.  37 MR. RUSH:  Thank you, my lord.  38 Q   Mr. Sterritt, having gone through the process which  39 you've described in court in the last few days, can  40 you tell the court some of the problems which you  41 encountered in obtaining accurate and complete  42 information about the ownership of territories, and  43 the place names and boundaries of the chiefs?  44 MR. GOLDIE:  Well, my lord, that's a leading question.  It  45 implies that he has received accurate and complete  46 information, and that will be one of the decisions  47 that your lordship will have to make.  If my friend is 7829  N. Sterritt (for Plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Rush  1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  THE COURT  MR. RUSH:  THE COURT  MR. RUSH:  Q  A  A  Q  A  THE COURT  A  THE COURT  A  prepared to ask the question tell us some of the  difficulties you have had in obtaining information I  withdraw my objection.  :  I think that's what you asked the witness to respond  to, isn't it, Mr. Rush?  That's what I asked him to respond to.  And as you've  heard in Mr. Sterritt's testimony, of course, he is  looking at the information from a point of view of its  completeness or --  :  Yes.  -- Its accuracy.  Mr. Sterritt, can you address some of the difficulties  you experienced?  Yes.  Early on one of the difficulties was my grasp of  the Gitksan language.  I had been away from the area  for sometime and when I came back I had to really fine  tune my ear by listening closely to what was being  said, and getting hereditary chiefs to explain it  closely to me, and also to build on the information I  had so that I understood what the words were.  And  that certainly evolved partly from the ability to  write the language, trying to standardize as much as  possible a system of writing and understanding the  subtlety between the words so I was getting what a  hereditary chief was saying to me.  In that I should  also say that the -- there were times when the  hereditary chief spoke to me as though I fully  understood the language and I had to slow them down or  get assistance to make sure that the information --  that I could get the information more accurately.  And by assistance do you mean the assistance of a  translator?  Yes.  Okay.  Now, did you experience or encounter problems  in respect of the identification of topographic  features?  Yes, I did.  The -- for example, the mountain in front  of Hazelton is Roche De Boule, R-o-c-h-e space D-e  space B-o-u-l-e on the map, topographic map, but the  hereditary chief would -- I got the name Stekyoodenhl,  S-t-e-k-y-o-o-d-e-n-h-1, from a hereditary chief.  :  I'm sorry.  How did you end up?  Was it A-h-1?  S-t-e-k-y-o-o-d-e-n-h-1.  :  Oh, H-l.  All right.  The -- in terms of just determining who was where on  that mountain I had to understand that there was  actually -- in the area that we ordinarily call Roche 7830  N. Sterritt (for Plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Rush  1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  MR.  RUSH:  Q  A  Q  A  THE COURT  A  MR.  RUSH:  Q  A  Q  A  De Boule there were actually four different names, and  that there were four different parts to that mountain,  and --  With different names?  With different names, yes.  The area that is on the  map of Hagwilgyet Peak is Stekyoodenhl, which I  already spelled.  Yes.  The area to the west of Hagwilgyet Peak is Stakhaiyt.  S-t-a-k-h-a-i-y-t.  There is a small peak in -- lower  and in front of the two that is part of the mountain  that is Haihl Guuhl Stekyoodenhl.  H-a-i-h-1 space  G-u-u-h-1 space S-t-e-k-y-o-o-d-e-n-h-1.  :  I'm sorry.  S-t-e-k-y-o-o?  D-e-n-h-1.  And then there's a further area farther to  the southwest which is Tass Lax Wii Aatxwit.  T-a-s-s  space L-a-x space W-i-i space A-a-t-x-w-i-t.  And I  use this as an example of -- of not just -- I would  over time pursue a technique of asking for the  separate parts if there were separate names and trying  to establish that distinction.  May I just ask you to pause on this example.  Was  Roche -- what was the relationship of the name Roche  De Boule to the other four names you gave me?  It -- locally those four names encompass the area of  Roche De Boule.  Okay.  And did you encounter any difficulties with  regard to the identification of ground features?  Generally I had been out on a good part of the  territory prior to the work that I did in gathering  information so I was able to locate some features, but  it was important to have -- to establish a greater  knowledge about the specifics of the topographic  features in areas so that I could relate a feature  that the hereditary chief might be talking about to a  feature that we both could establish and identify.  And the more accumulative the information that I had  the more affective was the resulting research, the  resulting information that I got.  And, therefore, the  helicopter flights and the other trips that I took  even without a hereditary chief, but to an area where  I would personally identify the landmarks in that area  so I could go back and talk about them, were all  useful to the work that I eventually did in terms of  ground features or topographic features. 7831  N. Sterritt (for Plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Rush  1 Continuing on with the name difficulty.  There's a  2 creek, Stenstrom Creek, which flows into the Kiteen  3 River, S-t-e-n-s-t-r-o-m, which over the length of it  4 has three different names and it's only about 15 miles  5 long at the most.  6 Q   That is three different Gitksan names?  7 A   Three different Gitksan names.  8 Q   Is Stenstrom a Gitksan name?  9 A   No, it's not.  And it's not derived from a Gitksan  10 name.  I was earlier under an impression that there  11 was one name for the entire river and that several  12 tributaries of this river or creek were the other  13 names, but Stanley Williams at one point made it very  14 clear to me what the difference was.  And I believe  15 those notes appear in -- they do appear in my  16 loose-leaf notes of the last year and a half.  17 Q   All right.  Now, were there problems which you  18 experienced with regard to hereditary chiefs or other  19 people who were providing you with information?  20 A   Yes.  The problem -- the main problem that I  21 encountered was that most of the hereditary chiefs  22 could not read a map, could not work with a map, and  23 the mental map of their territory that they had in  24 their head was difficult to get transferred for my  25 purposes onto a map.  As I mentioned, Walter  26 Blackwater, I sat down with a map with him and pointed  27 out a site that we both knew like seventh cabin, and  28 with a sweep of his hand he was all over -- describing  29 spots all over, but he -- in other words, I realized  30 he couldn't read the map, but he thought he was  31 following certain features, and far from it.  He was  32 identifying features for me, but I had to develop  33 techniques, as I did with Walter in that case, of  34 walking through the territory as we sat there in order  35 to identify features.  And this was all part of the  36 technique, I guess methodology, that evolved as I did  37 this work with witnesses or hereditary chiefs.  38 Q   And in terms of the way features were described to you  39 did you encounter difficulties in that respect?  40 A   I'm not clear on your question.  41 Q   Well, were there ways in which a feature or a  42 topographic landmark was described which made it  43 difficult for you to understand what it was that was  44 being referred to?  45 A   Yes.  The name that was given to me could be  46 descriptive of the mountain -- of -- say we'll use a  47 mountain as an example, and the example is a mountain 7832  N. Sterritt (for Plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Rush  1 called Na'ahl Taada.  That's spelled N-a-'-a-h-1 space  2 T-a-a-d-a.  That's a mountain up the Skeena River near  3 the Sustut River.  That means a notch like a -- or  4 like a branch tree, a forked tree or a notch in a  5 rock.  And there is in that range a peak called Notch  6 Top Peak which that -- which that -- which would  7 derive from that name, but, in fact, not only is the  8 peak Na'ahl Taada, but the range extending a little  9 ways north and quite a ways south of there is also  10 known as Na'ahl Taada.  11 Q   So in that example Na'ahl Taada was describing the  12 range?  13 A   Yes.  And the problem that I encountered in that was  14 the location of the creek which is derived from that  15 name, Xsi Na'ahl Taada.  X-s-i space N-a-'-a-h-1 space  16 T-a-a-d-a.  Would it flow off of the peak, Notch Top  17 Peak, or would it flow off from the end of the range.  18 And it turns out that it does flow off the south end  19 of that range.  20 Q   And, again, were there difficulties that you  21 encountered in respect of recall?  22 A   Yes.  A person could be knowledgeable about an area  23 and have a fairly detailed knowledge, but it required  24 the triggering perhaps of one name to -- or the  25 mention of one name that I might have received from  26 someone else to spark a whole number of other names,  27 but in the first instance when I might have talked to  28 the person they might not have been able to recall any  29 names.  It was when I was able to -- if I had  30 information from another hereditary chief and  31 mentioned that I had heard there was such and such a  32 creek, lake or mountain in that area then the  33 hereditary chief or witness would come up with that  34 information.  35 Q   And in terms of language, and I don't mean translation  36 language, but the way features or boundaries were  37 described, was there any difficulty that you  38 experienced in the language?  39 A   Yes.  A problem that I had to watch for was the word  40 trapline, because trapline had insinuated itself into  41 the language of the hereditary chiefs, and on one  42 occasion, or on a given occasion a hereditary chief  43 could be talking using the word trapline in describing  44 an area and really be referring to the hereditary or  45 the traditional territory, the boundaries or visa  46 versa, they could have been describing it, or  47 alternately they could have been describing a 7833  N. Sterritt (for Plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Rush  1 trapline.  And I had to sort that out.  I had to ask  2 questions and see whether they were talking about a  3 trapline or whether they were talking about a  4 traditional territory.  I couldn't make assumptions  5 about that.  6 Q   Now, Mr. Sterritt, I want to ask you now about the  7 preparation of the territorial affidavits.  You were  8 involved in that process?  9 A   Yes.  10 Q   And can you just describe how the process was  11 initiated and what role you played?  12 A  Well, just to go back, the -- the base maps that were  13 attached with some of the interrogatories were  14 prepared for the use of the -- at the instruction and  15 for the use of the lawyers, and for use with the  16 hereditary chiefs, and were never meant to be used in  17 court.  The pressures of court and the time pressures  18 resulted in their being used to help -- to try to help  19 in the demands that were coming through with the  20 interrogatories.  The lawyers had asked me and Alfred  21 Joseph and Marvin George to do a much more intensive  22 review of the existing information, and checking, and  23 also leading up to the court, or the recommendation  24 that the way to deal with part of the problem, or part  25 of the evidence -- the problem of hearsay evidence.  26 If I had come in to do the boundaries it would be  27 subject to hearsay, and that affidavits was a solution  28 that was offered by our legal counsel to the court.  29 And Richard Overstall, Marvin George, myself and the  30 lawyers developed an affidavit format by which the  31 hereditary chiefs would provide the evidence about  32 their territories -- the hereditary chiefs and  33 witnesses would provide evidence about their  34 territories.  35 Q   And that decision was taken in the summer of 1987, I  36 think, you've told us in your earlier testimony?  37 A   Yes, it was.  38 Q   And what was your particular role following that  39 period in terms of the drafting of affidavits?  40 A  My task was to take all of the accumulative  41 information that I had to that time and review it,  42 bring it all together and review it and to prepare a  43 first draft -- a draft of the territory for review by  44 the hereditary chief.  45 Q   Now, was this in respect of all of the territories  46 or —  47 A  All of the Gitksan territories. 7834  N. Sterritt (for Plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Rush  1 Q   All right.  And who was involved with the Wet'suwet'en  2 territories?  3 A   Richard.  4 Q   In the same way?  5 A   Richard Overstall and Marvin George and translators.  6 I also had the assistance of a translator as well  7 whenever I needed one.  8 Q   Was Alfred Joseph involved in this process?  9 A   Yes.  Alfred Joseph, Marvin, Richard Overstall and  10 myself.  11 Q   All right.  12 A   Even though Richard and Marvin were doing the  13 Wet'suwet'en affidavits I sought the help of Marvin  14 George as well, and Richard from time to time to  15 assist me in the development of the affidavit.  16 Q   All right.  And you've expressed how the first draft  17 came into being.  And what followed from that?  What  18 process did you follow?  19 A   I -- one of the main criteria of the affidavits --  20 well, there were two considerations.  The  21 consideration was the need to map; put the information  22 on a topographic map by Marvin George, and the mental  23 maps that was in the minds of the hereditary chiefs,  24 and my job was to develop the first draft and get down  25 the existing information that I had and then to review  26 that with the witness or hereditary chief who would be  27 signing that affidavit.  28 Q   And then what process did you -- did you follow with  29 the hereditary chief?  30 A   I sat down with the hereditary chief and went around  31 the description that I had made in the first draft to  32 determine whether I was accurate or whether -- and  33 whether it was complete.  And in that process the  34 hereditary chief followed the description and informed  35 me whether I was close to the territory, or dead on,  36 and what adjustments had to be made.  And from that  37 point on the adjustments based on what the hereditary  38 chief advised resulted in changes to the affidavit,  39 and eventually a final affidavit that was as the  40 hereditary chief described the territory.  41 Q   All right.  And where did these adjustments appear as  42 you were advised from the hereditary chief?  43 A   The -- well, sometimes it resulted in -- well, the  44 same kind of process we went through over the last  45 couple of days, where if my information was incomplete  46 or inaccurate then the hereditary chief gave us a more  47 accurate definition of where the boundary went; if it 7835  N. Sterritt (for Plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Rush  1 went up or down a creek, or along a mountain top, or  2 departed from that description.  Might go along the  3 trail -- boundary might go along the trail.  I thought  4 earlier it went along a creek right beside that that  5 was next to the trail.  6 Q   In those cases the information was recorded in  7 loose-leaf notes?  8 A   Oh, yes.  9 Q   And was there any other means in which the information  10 was recorded?  11 A   The majority of the information was located or was --  12 ended up being in notes or sketches that I would make.  13 And in sitting next to the hereditary chief I found it  14 very useful to try and sketch a creek or series of  15 creeks and see whether -- if the hereditary chief or  16 witness understood what I was drawing if they could  17 show me variations.  Or if there was a series of  18 mountains, if I sketched that, whether they could  19 identify the changes of those that appeared there.  20 There were other changes that simply went into the  21 draft and came out as a subsequent draft.  Not all.  22 Q   These were written on the draft?  23 A   On the draft, yes.  24 Q   And then the change was made and the new draft was  25 created?  26 A   Yes.  27 Q   Okay.  Now, did you have the assistance of others?  28 You've mentioned translators.  Were there any other  29 people involved in this process?  30 MR. GOLDIE:  He has mentioned Overstall and Marvin George.  31 MR. RUSH:  Yes.  32 A   Yes.  Once I got it -- well, even with the first  33 draft, but as soon as I had a description that was  34 becoming closer to what the hereditary chief  35 understood and knew his boundaries to be I then turned  36 a copy over to Marvin George who would take the  37 language that I was using and convert that more to --  38 closer to a description that he could map.  In other  39 words, he would -- if he had difficulty with the  40 language that was being used by the hereditary chief  41 he would do a separate draft that was more technical  42 and turn that back.  That would come back to me and  43 then I would review that with the hereditary chief to  44 see whether he still understood what was being said in  45 terms of metes and bounds.  And sometimes both Marvin  46 and I would enlist the help of Richard Overstall in  47 that as well to try and have this balance between an 7836  N. Sterritt (for Plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Rush  1 affidavit that could be translated by a translator to  2 a hereditary chief in Gitksan or Wet'suwet'en and one  3 that could be mapped by Marvin.  4 Q   And you mentioned that translators were involved to  5 assist you?  6 A  When a translator was necessary, yes, we had  7 translators to help.  8 Q   Were the lawyers involved?  9 A   Yes, they were.  10 Q   Now, some of the affidavits which have been filed as  11 exhibits with the court refer to a number of  12 territories.  Why did one hereditary chief such as  13 Stanley Williams speak to more than one territory?  14 A   The -- the hereditary chiefs preferred to choose  15 someone like Stanley or Pete Muldoe or Walter  16 Blackwater to do the affidavits for them and to  17 describe their territory for them.  They were  18 knowledgeable.  It was a decision that they made  19 that -- that someone like Stanley or Walter should do  20 that.  The -- there could be other people in the house  21 who could do an affidavit, but they were -- they were  22 quite busy with other duties.  And also they were  23 aware of the vast knowledge of people like Stanley  24 Williams and Walter Blackwater, Pete Muldoe.  25 Q   Now, were you involved at all with the preparation of  26 the drafts of the Wet'suwet'en affidavits?  27 A   No, I was not.  28 Q   Okay.  Now, as far as you are aware with regard to the  29 Wet'suwet'en affidavits, Mr. Sterritt, is it your  30 understanding that Mr. George will draft an affidavit  31 showing the internal boundaries of the Wet'suwet'en  32 hereditary chiefs?  33 A  A map?  34 Q   A map of the —  35 A   Yes.  That's my understanding.  36 THE COURT:  You mean something like 9A?  37 A   Yes.  38 MR. GOLDIE:  Sorry.  I want to make sure I got the witness note  39 correct.  That he would draft a map or has drafted a  4 0 map?  41 MR. RUSH:  42 Q   That Mr. George will draft a map in which will be  43 depicted the internal boundaries of the Wet'suwet'en  44 territories?  45 A   Yes.  I understand that he will do that.  The  46 affidavits of the Wet'suwet'en have just been  47 completed, and Marvin will draw a map similar to map 7837  N. Sterritt (for Plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Rush  1  2  3  Q  4  5  6  7  8  A  9  Q  10  11  A  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  Q  21  A  22  23  Q  24  25  A  26  Q  27  A  28  29  30  31  32  Q  33  34  A  35  Q  36  A  37  38  39  40  41  THE COURT  42  A  43  44  MR. RUSH:  45  Q  46  A  47  Q  9A for the Wet'suwet'en now that he has all that  information.  Now, Mr. Sterritt, I want to ask about another area  about which you have touched upon in your testimony,  and this deals with fish caches or pits.  Now, are you  aware of there being pits described as fish caches  within the Gitksan and Wet'suwet'en territories?  Yes, I am.  And can you just tell the court where these are  located?  They are depressions in the ground along the Skeena  River, on the banks of the Skeena River between the  area that I live in at -- opposite the Village of  Hazelton to Temleham, T-e-m-1-e-h-a-m, and continuing  on up the river, as I have seen them, as far as  Gitangas and along the Babine River at Kisgegas.  K-i-s-g-e-g-a-s, and Gitangas, G-i-t-a-n-g-a-s.  The  pits that I have seen are very close to where I live  at Temleham.  Both --  Where is it in relation to Hazelton?  Approximately a mile and a half south of Hazelton on  the west side of the Skeena.  All right.  Is there a name for the area where these  pits are located?  That is Temleham.  And how do these pits appear to your eye?  The pits near where I am are fairly shallow.  They are  a depression, and have the appearance now of being  more or less filled in.  And there's grass and leaves  and so on in them.  Sometimes willows growing out of  them.  Continuing on up to the Skeena --  Yes, that's what I -- you've identified depressions  like this.  You have seen these depressions elsewhere?  Yes, I have.  Whereabouts on the Skeena?  In several locations, but in particular Xsin Djihl.  X-s-i-n space D-j-i-h-1.  That is a creek locally  known as Caribou Creek.  That flows west into the  Skeena above Kispiox.  It's on the map, the  topographic map, as Utsun Creek.  U-t-s-u-n.  :  U or B?  U-t-s-u-n.  And there the depressions are much deeper  and much larger than the ones in the area of my home.  How many did you see there?  In the neighbourhood of 15 or 20.  And they're deeper? 783?  1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  N. Sterritt (for Plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Rush  A   They're deeper and larger.  Q   And to what depth do they go?  A   The ones in the area of my home are 18 to 24 inches  deep.  These ones are 30 to 40 inches deep.  And  continuing on up the Skeena to a place known as  Tsuwinhl Geets.  That's T-s-u-w-i-n-h-1 space  G-e-e-t-s.  COURT:  Sorry.  Last word again?  A   G-e-e-t-s.  There are a number of depressions there.  I don't recall the number.  RUSH:  Q  A  THE  MR.  MR.  MR.  MR.  MR.  That area, is that close to a village site?  Well, that name in itself is a settlement area of the  House of Gwoimt.  G-w-o-i-m-t.  And it's approximately  15 miles farther up the Skeena from Utsun Creek.  U-t-s-u-n.  And then there's another village just  downstream from Kisgegas on the Babine River.  GOLDIE:  Are these occupied villages or village sites, my  lord?  RUSH:  Q   There are people living at Kisgegas?  A   Yes, there is.  GOLDIE:  I know there was people living at Kisgegas.  He was  talking about something altogether --  RUSH:  Q   Is that right, are you talking about something  different than Kisgegas in that last example?  A  Anlaga Simdeek.  That's spelled A-n-1-a-g-a space  S-i-m-d-e-e-k.  A village site just below Kisgegas and  a member of the House of Gwoimt.  Freddy Vale has a  cabin there.  He lives there.  And it's an old village  site.  In that area there are fish sites.  The place  that I mentioned at Tsuwinhl Geets, T-s-u-w-i-n-h-1  space G-e-e-t-s, there is no houses or cabins there at  this time.  That's an old village site.  MR. GOLDIE:  I think, my lord, that the witness should state the  source of his information, because he's not been  qualified to offer an opinion of an archeological  character.  MR. RUSH:  Well, that particular piece of information has  already been provided by James Morrison in the  evidence.  Q   But, Mr. Sterritt, just in respect of your knowledge  of the -- of there being a fishing site -- excuse me,  an old village site at the locale you've indicated,  what is the basis of your knowledge?  A   Henry Wright took me to the Village of Anlaga Simdeek, 7839  N. Sterritt (for Plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Rush  1  2  3  4  Q  5  A  6  MR. GOLDIE  7  A  8  MR. RUSH:  9  Q  10  11  12  13  1  14  A  15  16  17  1  18  Q  19  A  20  21  22  ]  23  MR. GOLDIE  24  MR. RUSH:  25  Q  26  27  1  28  A  29  30  Q  31  A  32  33  Q  34  A  35  36  Q  37  38  A  39  40  41  42  Q  43  A  44  Q  45  46  47  A  A-n-1-a-g-a space S-i-m-d-e-e-k, in 1979 and described  where the houses were.  He had seen them there when he  was a young man.  All right.  And where a fallen totem pole was.  :  Is Henry Wright a living witness?  Henry Wright has been dead for about six years.  I direct your attention to the depressions that we had  been talking about earlier which -- about which I  thought you were going to address yourself in respect  to the area around Kisgegas.  Have you seen similar  depressions in that --  Yes.  There is an area on the north side of the Babine  River approximately one mile east of Kisgegas that is  like a mine field.  There is a tremendous number of  depressions, fish caches.  What did you see there?  There are over a stretch of approximately half a mile  or even more the ground is dug up and there are very  large fish caches, fish pits, which to me indicates a  more recent --  Excuse me.  Yes.  Well, if you can just -- I'm just at this point  interested, Mr. Sterritt, in what it is you saw.  How  deep were these pits?  Okay.  Some of them -- some of the pits were, I would  say, were close to four feet deep.  Okay.  And at least four feet -- in the neighbourhood -- in  the neighbourhood of four feet in diameter.  How many pits did you see in that area?  I never counted them myself, but I've seen -- my  estimate would be at least a hundred.  On how many occasions have you been to that area and  observed those pits?  I've hunted in that area for a long time and seen them  each time.  I've probably been there -- well, I should  say at least half a dozen times.  And I also took an  archeologist to those sites.  Who was that?  Sylvia Allbright.  That's spelled A-1-l-b-r-i-g-h-t.  Okay.  Now, Mr. Sterritt, did you see any pits that  resembled those that you saw in the Kisgegas area in  any other locations?  Yes.  At Gitangas.  They weren't nearly as many in 7840  N. Sterritt (for Plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Rush  1  2  3  Q  4  A  5  Q  6  A  7  Q  8  9  10  A  11  12  13  14  15  Q  16  17  18  A  19  THE  COURT  20  21  A  22  THE  COURT  23  24  A  25  26  THE  COURT  27  MR.  RUSH:  28  Q  29  30  31  32  33  A  34  Q  35  36  37  A  38  Q  39  40  41  42  MR.  GOLDI  43  44  45  46  47  THE  COURT  number, and they were somewhat shallower than the ones  at Kisgegas.  I think I saw four or five in that area.  And Gitangas is spelled G-i-t-a-n-g-a-s?  Yes.  And when did you see them at that location?  In 1985.  Okay.  And in relation to the pits that you saw at  Kisgegas can you just describe visually what it is  that you saw at Gitangas?  At Gitangas, as I say, they were shallower.  They were  in the neighbourhood of 18 to 20 inches deep.  They  were not as wide.  I would say they were possibly 30  inches wide.  And they were full of leaves and debris,  and some of them had willows growing out of them.  Okay.  And in terms of visually -- visual comparison  between those at Gitangas and those close to your home  at Temleham how did they compare in size?  They were similar.  :  We saw these pits at Slamgeesh and Old Kuldo, didn't  we?  Yes.  We also saw them there.  :  We didn't see them down south in the Wet'suwet'en  country, did we?  I wasn't on that trip.  I've been down in that area,  but I myself haven't seen any down there.  :  Yes.  All right.  All right.  Mr. Sterritt, I want to turn your  attention to another topic now.  It's a question of  logging.  And I think your earlier evidence indicated  that you were involved in the logging industry as a  young person?  Yes, I was.  And I think you indicated different areas where you  were involved in logging principally on the east side  of the Kispiox River, is that right?  The east side of the Skeena River.  All right.  And can you tell his lordship what  techniques of logging were involved by you when you  were engaged in the logging -- the logging practices  that you were involved in at that time?  EI:  Well, my lord, I don't recall the witness stating  in his earlier evidence that he was other -- engaged  other than as an employee, so I assume he's being  asked to state what his employer did in the course of  or what he did in the course of his employment.  :  Or what he saw in the course of his employment. 7841  N. Sterritt (for Plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Rush  1 MR. GOLDIE:  Or what he saw in the course of his employment.  2 That's right.  3 THE COURT:  All right.  4 MR. RUSH:  5 Q   More importantly, Mr. Sterritt, what did you do when  6 you were engaged in the logging that you were involved  7 in as a younger person?  8 A  Well, when I was very young I participated in hand  9 logging.  I helped to fall trees with a cross cut saw,  10 with an axe, and to -- the main nature of my father  11 and my grandfather's business was making cedar poles,  12 which meant removing the bark from the poles -- from  13 the cedar trees and limbing them.  And I participated  14 in all those activities from a fairly young age.  15 Until when I was about 14 or 15 I was working at that.  16 And that time it was hand logging.  I was -- I drove a  17 horse.  Helped to skid logs by horse.  I helped to  18 hand load logging trucks.  We didn't have any loaders  19 in those days.  We had what we called skidways, which  20 were simply a way of getting the logs up onto the  21 truck by hand.  22 Q   All right.  In terms of the cutting that you were  23 involved in did you yourself do the cutting of trees?  24 A   Yes, I did.  It was a selective logging process.  25 Q   What does that mean to you?  26 MR. GOLDIE:  Instead of applying names to processes, my lord --  27 I mean, he gave evidence of this back in June the  28 20th.  He described how his father and his grandfather  29 owned a cedar pole camp, and his uncle owned a cedar  30 pole camp.  He worked in that during the summertime.  31 And he identified the work he did.  We learned to peel  32 the bark off the pole, using horses to skid the logs  33 or poles, and so on, but at no time did he suggest  34 that he had any responsibility for the things he was  35 doing other than at the direction of somebody.  36 THE COURT:  Well, I haven't understood the question to be going  37 beyond that today.  Have they, Mr. Rush?  38 MR. RUSH:  There's no question Mr. Sterritt was not involved in  39 management, or he was not an employer, and he didn't  40 have the broad terminological descriptions that might  41 be in the mind of an employer.  I'm asking Mr.  42 Sterritt what he did, and he applied a term of  43 selective process to it.  I'm sure there is actual  44 things that he did that lead him to that description.  45 That's what I'm trying to get at.  46 THE COURT:  Is it repititious?  47 MR. RUSH:  I'm not trying to go into all of the technique of 7842  N. Sterritt (for Plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Rush  1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  THE COURT  MR. RUSH:  Q  skinning a cedar tree and what you do with a cedar  tree.  I'm more interested in terms of what he did in  respect to cutting the tree and what this forest  looked like after he had done it.  I think you're entitled to do that.  It's the process that you were involved in, if at all,  Mr. Sterritt.  When you were in the bush in doing the  cutting that you say you were engaged in, what did you  actually do when you were involved there?  A   The forest that we were cutting were cedar trees, and  only certain cedar trees, because some of the cedar  trees weren't mature enough to -- large enough to make  a cedar pole, or they were rotten and would be a waste  of time to fall them, so we selected the right kinds  of cedar trees and felled them and peeled them and  skidded them out of the bush.  Q   Were these trees that you selected of a particular  size and dimension?  A   The length varied from, I remember well, that we were  doing from 25 feet to as large as 75 and 80 feet.  Q   These —  A   That's in length.  Q   Length.  And the width?  A  Well, the diameter at the butt for a 25 foot pole  would be in the neighbourhood of 16 inches, and for an  80 foot pole would be anywhere from three feet to four  feet.  Q   Right.  Now, Mr. Sterritt, the areas that you were  involved in this logging activity when you were a  young person, are these areas that you have been to  since that time of your early years?  A   Yes, they are.  Q   And how frequently have you been to those areas since  that time?  A  With the exception of the times that I was either out  of the country or out of the province for a period of  time at least once a year every year since then, and  often three or four times a year.  Q All right. And in terms of the areas where you were  involved in the logging that you described has there  been logging since that time in the same areas?  A   Yes, there has.  MR. GOLDIE:  My lord, what is the relevance of all this?  THE COURT:  I don't really know, and I'm not sure that I would  have any way of knowing.  MR. GOLDIE:  Well, I'm equally in the dark.  I thought I 7843  N. Sterritt (for Plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Rush  1 understood when this evidence was first led it was the  2 normal character of what the witness has done in his  3 past.  Going into it again, and evidence with respect  4 to other logging which has taken place there -- I  5 don't even know if it's his father or his grandfather  6 or his uncle who has done further logging.  7 THE COURT:  Well, I have to assume that Mr. Rush is going to  8 have the witness describe something that he has seen,  9 and which counsel thinks is relevant.  10 MR. GOLDIE:  Well, I wish to record my objection with respect to  11 relevance, because I really do not wish to get into  12 for purposes of cross-examination logging practices or  13 what has gone on there since 1960, the summer of 19 --  14 well, he went to work for a mining company in the  15 summer of '64, but in the fifties he was there as a  16 youngster.  And if it becomes relevant to go into the  17 logging that has gone over that place over the last 30  18 some odd years then we've got a rather large area  19 opened up that I fail to see has any connection with  20 territories.  21 THE COURT:  I'm harbouring some hope that it wouldn't be  22 necessary to open up some of those areas.  23 MR. GOLDIE:  So do I.  24 THE COURT:  I don't think there is anything that's happened at  25 the moment I can stop.  Maybe he will tell me these  26 are areas he logged selectively in the fifties that  27 have now grown over and don't appear to be logged now.  28 It seemed to me if they had been logged since then the  29 evidence isn't going to be of much assistance.  At  30 least at the moment I don't see how it could be of  31 much assistance.  I'm not sure I have any grounds of  32 which I could stop counsel.  Counsel must have, I'm  33 sure, a plan.  34 You may proceed, Mr. Rush.  35 MR. RUSH:  36 Q   Now, those areas that you've referred to, Mr.  37 Sterritt, where you've been involved in logging,  38 you've been to those areas and can you tell -- that is  39 since, and can you tell his lordship what you've seen  40 when you've passed through those areas since that  41 time, 1961 or through to '64, the last time it was you  42 were there logging?  43 A   The same areas that we logged in the early sixties and  44 fifties have been logged by different methods since  45 then and are pretty well bare.  The areas have been  46 logged off almost -- well, all up and down the Skeena  47 in the area that we logged in those years. 7844  N. Sterritt (for Plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Rush  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  what do you mean bare?  This is the  What else can you --  Q   When you mean  question.  MR. GOLDIE:  What he stated, logged off.  THE COURT:  Nearly bare.  MR. RUSH:  I'm interested in knowing what Mr. Sterritt thinks  nearly bare is.  A   There is nothing left.  The area in terms of being an  area to provide shelter to animals or to hunt in,  there is damage there in terms of the -- to creeks.  MR. GOLDIE:  I object to this evidence, my lord.  MR. RUSH:  I don't know why.  If the witness can say from his  visual observation about a creek that he saw in 1961  and he sees the same creek in 1985 and he says that  the creek is damaged to his eyes I don't think that  that's in the slightest bit objectionable.  If the  witness hunted there in 1961 and tried to hunt there  again in 1981 and he couldn't find a moose certainly  that is relevant to the question of damages.  That's  what this evidence is aimed at, the question of the  amount of destruction or damage which has occurred in  that area about which this witness has specific  knowledge from his own activities there over a number  of years.  MR. GOLDIE:  Well, I thought at one time the issue of damages  was not going to be heard by your lordship.  MR. RUSH:  The quantification of damage was not to be heard by  your lordship.  THE COURT:  Well, the trouble I have with it, I guess, is really  one of management.  Depending on site specificity some  areas would be barer than others depending on how long  ago they were logged.  And unless we're down to pretty  fine detail will it be much assistance?  I have no  doubt there is no shelter for animals as soon as you  finish clear cut logging.  I'm not sure what the  situation is 15 years later or five years later, I  just don't know, but in the absence of a lot of detail  is it evidence that I'm going to be able to make any  use of?  MR. RUSH:  Well, how -- it's our position you need evidence of  loss.  Mr. Sterritt at this point cannot give this  evidence about other areas in the -- in the  territories of the Gitksan Wet'suwet'en chiefs.  This  is an area we have specific knowledge about.  Your  lordship heard the evidence about -- similar evidence  from Pete Muldoe.  You've heard it from Henry Alfred.  THE COURT:  I've heard lots of evidence about clear cut logging.  Yes, indeed. 7845  N. Sterritt (for Plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Rush  1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  MR. RUSH:  But not just clear cut logging.  Clear cut logging in  the abstract may be a neutral factor, but what has had  to result from the clear cut logging, in my  submission, is relevant to you.  And it's true it may  be that in 15 years after the logging there may be  different considerations at play, but this man -- this  witness knows what considerations are at play now.  THE COURT:  Does he know when the logging he's describing took  place?  MR. RUSH:  I don't know.  The first step, in my submission, was  to determine if what he saw there and what he could  determine the condition of the land to be, and I will  pursue with him, if he knows, at what time he noticed  that the trees in that area had been cleared off.  Is this going to be a major item of evidence, not in  importance, but in duration of time? Are you planning  to take some considerable time in this?  I'm not intending to spend a lot of time on this, but  I think he -- if your lordship wants a specific time  reference I can assure you I probably wouldn't be more  than ten minutes, if that's helpful.  All right.  Well, I'm going to take the afternoon  adjournment.  I think I'll allow you to proceed, Mr.  Rush.  I think the value of the evidence is somewhat  circumscribed by, or limited by the area you're  talking about when the logging took place, how the  logging was done, and all these things.  I don't think  it matters who did it, although it might.  I leave  that for you.  All right.  I'll take a few minutes.  THE REGISTRAR:  Order in court.  Court will recess.  (PROCEEDINGS ADJOURNED)  I hereby certify the foregoing to be  a true and accurate transcript of the  proceedings herein to the best of my  skill and ability.  THE COURT  MR. RUSH  THE COURT  Peri McHale, Official Reporter  UNITED REPORTING SERVICE LTD. 7846 1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31 (PROCEEDINGS RESUMED PURSUANT TO AN ADJOURNMENT)  32  33 THE REGISTRAR:  Order in court.  Mr. Rush.  34 MR. RUSH:  35 Q    Thank you.  Mr. Sterritt, would you identify please  36 a little more precisely the areas where you have  37 observed the clear-cutting to have occurred on the  38 east side of the Skeena River?  39 A    There is a creek that appears on the map as Sediesh,  40 S-e-d-i-e-s-h, and my father had a cabin about a mile  41 and a quarter south of that creek along the road there  42 and we logged from there for some time in the very  43 early 60's and the late 50's.  There is a bench east  44 of there well up and in that area.  About four miles  45 east of there, there is a couple of lakes and that  46 area was clear-cut logged.  It was logged and all the  47 trees were taken off of that area.  It was an area 7847  N. Sterritt (for Plaintiff)  In chief by Mr. Rush  1 that we had logged in the late 50's and into the very  2 early 60's for some time.  3 Q    All right.  I wonder if you'd just step off the  4 witness stand and go over to the overlay map 9A and  5 just show where that area is located?  6 A    Kispiox village is right here.  The Skeena is under  7 this black line that extends north.  This area that I  8 am talking about is about 12 miles to 15 miles  9 upstream from Kispiox on the east side of the Skeena.  10 MR. GOLDIE:  Whose territory?  11 THE WITNESS:  That's the territory of Gutginuxw.  Do you have a  12 number for that?  13 MR. RUSH:  It's been given already.  14.  14 THE REGISTRAR:  Yes.  15 MR. RUSH:  16 Q    Now, Mr. Sterritt, do you know when it was that this  17 clear-cutting occurred in that area on the bench up  18 above Sediesh Creek?  19 A    I made a trip into that area in 1967 and it had been  20 clear-cut or they were beginning to cut it then and it  21 was cleared or was logged after that.  22 Q    All right.  And in respect of that area, were there  23 any impacts that you observed?  24 A    Well, while we were logging there in the early 60's,  25 we used to go -- the people that I was with, we'd go  26 out hunting at night and picking berries in the  27 evenings, and also we would hike in that area and  28 there was a few small fish in the lake up there, and  29 we would swim up there and also fish.  After the  30 logging -- and there was game in the area, there was  31 moose there.  32 Q    Other game?  33 A    It was a trail -- a route that we also took to go  34 goat hunting up in the mountains there.  But after the  35 logging was done, it was done in a way that you could  36 hardly walk across the area because of the fallen  37 trees and the trees that were left there, and because  38 it was just a broad plain, a big area where there was  39 no game in there then.  40 Q    All right.  Now, were there other places farther  41 north from Sediesh Creek where you observed  42 clear-cutting to have occurred?  43 A    Yes.  Later than that, on the north side of Sediesh  44 Creek, S-e-d-i-e-s-h, is an area where we picked  45 berries and hunted which was one of the first places I  46 ever went hunting with my grandfather and my father,  47 and that area was logged during the 70's, and the 7848  N. Sterritt (for Plaintiff)  In chief by Mr. Rush  1 moose and the berry area were damaged by the machinery  2 that was used to log the area.  3 Q    What observations did you make in that respect?  4 A    Well, it was not a solid stand say of hemlock or  5 spruce; it was mixed jack pine, some spruce, and there  6 was poplar and birch in that area and the poplar and  7 birch were run over by the equipment, knocked down, so  8 it was simply left there and it was leaning, it was on  9 the ground, and also the smaller jack pine that was in  10 the area was left as well and was laying on the ground  11 or leaning, and generally it was a mess.  12 Q    And when you say the smaller jack pine, what size  13 diameter would the butt of a smaller jack pine be that  14 you are referring to?  15 A    Eight inches, 12 inches.  Not much larger than that.  16 Q    And did you observe any other impacts in that  17 particular area, that second area north of Sediesh  18 Creek that you have identified?  19 A    Well, as I mentioned, it was an area where we had  20 picked berries and had gone into a lot and that the  21 berry areas that we used to go to were run over by the  22 equipment that went through there to log in the  23 logging areas.  24 MR. RUSH:  All right.  25 MR. GOLDIE:  Is this the father or grandfather's show?  I have  26 been trying to follow.  2 7    MR. RUSH:  28 Q    The area that you are referring to north of Sediesh  29 Creek, was that an area where your father operated a  30 logging operation?  31 A    No.  We did not log on the north side of that creek  32 in that area.  We were -- there is -- the next creek  33 is named Sterritt Creek.  34 Q    The next steepest creek north of Sediesh?  35 A    Yes, and there were several people logging in that  36 area; James Morrison, Peter Barney Robinson.  There  37 were just the two of them, and my dad and I went in to  38 help them to log there.  They were logging cedar poles  39 and we went in and helped them there.  And by then my  40 father had bought a small bulldozer, a D4, and we  41 helped to skid out some of the poles for them.  42 Q    All right.  Now, you mentioned an area north of  43 Sediesh Creek, Sterritt Creek, north of that.  Has  44 there been -- did you observe any clear-cutting in  45 that area?  46 A    Yes.  That area was logged a little later and it was  47 an area that when I first went home actually in the 7849  N. Sterritt (for Plaintiff)  In chief by Mr. Rush  1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  MR. GOLDIE:  THE WITNESS  MR. RUSH:  Q  late 70's, my two sons and myself and my father and  some others used to go into that area.  Q    To do what?  A    To hunt and camp because we went up the mountain in  that area, too, took the kids, my nephews and so on up  hunting and hiking.  And that area was logged then.  It was logged in a similar manner to the area just  north of Sediesh Creek.  It was different -- it was  heavier stand of hemlock and cedar and that was all  cleared right off.  As a matter of fact, we did help  James Morrison and Peter Barney to skid some of their  poles but there was an area farther east of there up a  little higher that we logged cedar poles in there for  a while.  Q    This is north or south of Sterritt Creek?  A    Just south of Sterritt Creek.  North of Sediesh?  And north of Sediesh.  A  Q  A  A  Q  A  THE COURT  MR.  RUSH:  Q  And can you advise the court about impacts that you  observed in that area as a result of the logging that  you have seen in the 70's?  Well, it was higher up on the hillside and the  effect was that the creeks, when -- in heavy rains or  in floods in the spring, the creeks were causing a lot  more damage downstream from that area as they -- when  they were in flood than they had prior to the logging  that the clear-cut logging, and then it occurred when  we were logging the area.  When you say damage, what do you mean?  They took out the bridges, lot more material was  coming down in the creeks, silt and boulders, and that  kind of damage.  Is this damage that, as you call it, what you have  seen?  Yes.  What about north of Sterritt Creek, farther north of  Sterritt Creek in the area that you have been  describing now?  Has there been clear-cut logging in  that area since the time that you were logging there  as a younger person in the early 60's?  Yes.  I thought that's what he was telling us, north of  Sterritt Creek.  I had the impression it was just north or on  Sterritt Creek in my -- 7850  N. Sterritt (for Plaintiff)  In chief by Mr. Rush  1  A  2  3  1  4  5  6  7  Q  8  A  9  10  1  11  12  13  14  Q  15  A  16  17  Q  18  19  A  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  Q  33  34  A  35  36  37  38  Q  39  A  40  Q  41  42  A  43  44  MR. RUSH:  45  46  47  MR. GOLDIE  Just -- we helped James Morrison and Peter Barney  Robinson to do some logging right around Sterritt  Creek and just on the north side.  We logged farther  up the creek and on the south side and then farther  north up the river.  Up the Skeena River we also  logged.  And what area is that?  It is at a place -- there were several locations.  It was at a creek that's on the map as McCutcheon  Creek, M-c-C-u-t-c-h-e-o-n, and that's Xsuwii lax  neeks, X-s-u-w-i-1 space l-a-x space n-e-e-k-s, and we  logged there for two or three years.  That is probably  in a straight line five miles north of Sterritt Creek.  How far is it from Kisgagas?  Oh, it is approximately half ways between Hazelton  and Kisgagas.  It would be about 25 miles.  And since the time you were there logging, did you  observe any clear-cutting in that same area?  Yes.  Now that area is -- and it was done in the  last -- within the last ten years and there is -- it's  similar to the area just north of Sediesh Creek in  that it's mixed jack pine, hemlock, and birch and  poplar, and the logging done in that area, a lot of  trees knocked over and leaning, a lot of the trees  that they weren't going to log.  And in that area also  the trees are more decadent, they are older, and there  are big piles of trees that are fallen and skidded to  the landing and then just burnt.  They are not hauled  in.  And I mean, when I say big piles, I mean a lot of  the -- I have been told by a logger who logged  there --  Well, not what you have been told; just tell us what  you have seen?  Well, if I made an estimate, it would be that for  every seven loads of logs that are -- that are brought  to the landing by the skidders, two to three are  burnt; two to three loads are burnt at the landing.  Have you seen logs burnt there at these landings?  Yes, I have.  The areas where these logs are taken from, what  visually do they look like?  It is hillside; they were forested areas, and now  they are pretty well cleared right off.  And are you able to say what impacts -- environmental  impacts in that area or habitat impacts, any impacts  that you have observed?  :  Is this now or at the time of the logging? 7851  N. Sterritt (for Plaintiff)  In chief by Mr. Rush  1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  MR. RUSH:  Q    I would ask Mr. Sterritt to direct his attention to  the time that you made your observation about the  clear-cutting and after that?  A    Can you repeat the question again?  MR. RUSH:  Just if you can advise us as to what the impacts, if  any, that you have observed as a result of that  clear-cutting?  MR. GOLDIE:  I repeat my concern, my lord.  If he saw logs being  burnt, he was observing at the time the log was being  undertaken.  My note is that that was within the last  ten years.  I think if there is going to be an  environmental impact statement made that he ought to  tell us what he saw at the time and, if he's been  there recently, what he's seen now.  MR. RUSH:  The witness has said that he's been in that area  every year for a considerable number of years and Mr.  Sterritt may have made observations two years ago,  five or seven years ago, and may have made them last  week.  Well, I think he is entitled to say what he saw but  think Mr. Goldie is entitled to know when he saw it.  THE COURT  MR  RUSH:  Q  A  THE  THE  THE  MR.  COURT:  WITNESS  COURT:  RUSH:  Q  A  Q  A  Q  Yes, I agree with that.  The logging that I am describing -- that I have just  finished describing has occurred over the last three  years and this year, and the burning that I have  described has occurred in the past -- over the past  three years and this year, and there are swamp areas  within the main -- the timbered areas where the --  where there are moose or have been moose habitat,  and -- but the moose rely on the surrounding forest  and the swamp areas, and the moose -- I have gone -- I  mean, I have gone by the areas and there are no tracks  of moose there or any moose in those areas.  That's in  the area of Shewilaba Creek and north of McCutcheon  Creek.  Shewilaba, S-h-e-w-i-1-a-b-a, I think.  S-h-e-w --  -- i-1-a-b-a.  Thank you.  Is Shewilaba the next creek north of McCutcheon?  Yes, the next main creek.  And the observation --  The next larger creek.  And the observation or lack of observation of the  moose tracks, when was it that you made those? 7852  N. Sterritt (for Plaintiff)  In chief by Mr. Rush  1 A    Last fall.  2 Q    Now, are there any other areas on the east side of  3 the Skeena north of McCutcheon Creek where you have  4 made observations about the nature of the clear-cut  5 logging in the area?  6 A    Well, there is clear-cut logging on the area just  7 north of Salmon River.  Actually that's the local  8 name.  On the map it is Shegunia, S-h-e-g-u-n-i-a.  9 When I say on the map, I mean the topographic map.  10 Q    Now, that's not north of McCutcheon Creek?  11 A    No.  12 Q    That's closer to Kispiox, is it?  13 A    Yes.  It is only about ten miles north of Hazelton,  14 and that has all been logged over the last four to  15 five years.  16 Q    Four to five years?  17 A    Yes.  18 Q    Have you ever done any hunting in that area?  19 A    Yes, extensively, and the plan was to log the entire  20 area --  21 Q    Well, just if you can --  22 A    — of that flat.  23 Q    If you can concentrate on what you have seen?  24 A    Well, it's large jack pine flat and it's an  25 excellent deer area and also an area where the local  26 people go to cut wood because it is a jack pine flat.  27 Q    Do you cut wood there?  28 A    Yes, I do.  And the logging that took place on  29 either side of the road has been very extensive.  It  30 has seriously limited the deer habitat from what it  31 was and I, in order not to eliminate entirely the deer  32 habitat, I went to the Forestry and told them that  33 because people are -- it is an area for everyone to  34 cut wood and also very important deer habitat, that  35 they should not log any more of it.  They have logged  36 portions of it but there has been an effect on the  37 deer so far.  38 Q    What impact have you noticed on the deer?  39 A    They -- I used to be able to go there and get a deer  40 quite easily, and I have hunted there for the last  41 three years and have not been able to get one,  42 although that doesn't mean there aren't deer there but  43 it is much harder to shoot a deer in that area.  44 MR. GOLDIE:  This is the area four to five miles from Hazelton,  45 is it?  4 6    MR. RUSH:  47 Q    Kispiox? 7853  N. Sterritt (for Plaintiff)  In chief by Mr. Rush  1 A    It's about ten miles out of Hazelton along the  2 Skeena River.  3 Q    Mr. Sterritt, you have mentioned a number of times  4 that you have gone hunting for moose and now you have  5 indicated deer.  To what extent do you and your family  6 rely upon deer or moose for food?  7 A    We eat moose meat at least twice a week and I  8 haven't -- I haven't gotten a deer in the last few  9 years but moose or goat meat and moose meat.  We eat  10 wild game and fish probably four meals out of the week  11 at a minimum.  12 Q    And how long have you been eating moose and deer  13 with the frequency that you have indicated although  14 you have said that deer you haven't had in the last  15 few years?  16 A    I, with the exception of the years that I was away,  17 pretty well all my life.  When I was younger we ate  18 goat meat, moose meat, sometimes bear meat, and deer  19 meat and fish almost every day of the week, and there  20 was time not long after I got married that we ate deer  21 meat, that's when I lived in Vancouver, almost every  22 day of the week.  23 Q    You ate deer meat in Vancouver?  24 A    Yes.  I hunted a lot and we ate deer meat almost  25 every day of the week.  It was partly because of my  26 economic circumstances, I was going to school then and  27 just didn't have any money, and also that's what my  28 wife and I ate.  29 Q    All right.  I want to ask you, Mr. Sterritt, about  30 road building.  Can you comment at all about the  31 extent of road building on the east side of the Skeena  32 River north of Kispiox in the areas where you have  33 indicated the clear-cutting occurred and where you  34 have made observations about the impacts of the  35 clear-cutting?  36 A    Yes.  My father first started to log on the east  37 side of the Skeena before a road was put in to the  38 area.  That was at a creek called Xsugwa mahlit,  39 X-s-u-g-w-a space m-a-h-1-i-t.  That is approximately  40 17 miles north of Hazelton on the east side of the  41 Skeena.  And I went in with him once or twice before  42 the road -- a road was put through, and what  43 precipitated the road at the time was a large slide on  44 the Babine River upstream from Kisgagas which blocked  45 the salmon from going to the Babine Lake to spawn.  So  46 the Department of Fisheries and Oceans pushed a road  47 through in a matter of months and the road that went 7854  N. Sterritt (for Plaintiff)  In chief by Mr. Rush  1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  MR.  THE  MR.  THE  MR.  MR.  THE  THE  MR.  in was simply an -- almost a dirt trail, it was pushed  in so fast, and the major problem that occurred was  that it opened the area to people from anywhere in  B.C. to go into an area that we had been -- well, our  family and other families from the area had been  picking berries in, hunting in, working in, for a long  time, and I am not referring to in the hundreds of  years since, but the previous 15 or 20 years.  As  well, some cedar pole logging going on in that area  before a road was in and trapping and berry picking  and hunting.  The effect -- one of the effects at the  time was that it opened up prime moose habitat to any  hunter who wanted to drive in there, and what I saw  was an -- almost a slaughter of the moose in that  area.  Q    Now, how did you make observations of that?  A   Anyone who wanted to drive in could drive in and  shoot moose, there were so many moose in the area.  Q    Did you see that?  A    The observation -- it was the kills that I saw and  the people hauling moose out of there.  It was a  situation that I saw on other -- in other areas where  roads were pushed in and no consideration was given to  the present pressure or harvest of animals by the  local people or on the effect of just opening up an  area.  Q    In terms of the areas that you have identified as  being places where the clear-cutting has occurred,  what can you say about road building in those areas?  A    In the last two years the existing or the road that  was put in some years ago.  Q    That is the one you have just been describing?  A    The one I described.  GOLDIE:  This is the federal department road, is it?  WITNESS:  Yes.  GOLDIE:  Can you tell us when that was put in just to be of  assistance to me?  WITNESS:  1952, '53.  RUSH:  That's in the evidence already.  GOLDIE:  May be but I'd like to know from this witness.  52 and '53?  Yes, over that period.  COURT:  WITNESS  RUSH:  Q  A  Yes.  In the last two years the road has been straightened  and widened to be I think -- looks to me like a  hundred foot -- well, let me say a 66 foot 7855  N. Sterritt (for Plaintiff)  In chief by Mr. Rush  1 right-of-way, roadway, and a ditch, and straightened  2 as I say to make it easier to get bigger equipment  3 into that area to haul out logs, and the damage that I  4 have seen is -- where the road -- well, all along the  5 road, but it's gone through a property that belonged  6 to my father, and I mean a piece of property that he  7 acquired, and also the logging has gone on on either  8 side of that road and it is increasing as the road  9 extends up the Skeena valley there.  10 Q    In terms of road building, are you aware of any road  11 building activity that has occurred through the  12 village of Kisgagas?  13 A    Yes.  When the Department of Fisheries and Oceans  14 went past the village of Kisgagas en route to the  15 slide, the village was -- the houses were there and it  16 was full of all of the belongings of the people who  17 had lived there and would still return there to trap  18 and to fish from time to time.  19 Q    Had you been to the village and --  20 A    Yes.  21 Q    -- seen the village in that state?  22 A    Yes.  23 Q    Was this road, was that on the north or south side  24 of the Babine?  25 A    On the south side.  26 Q    Was there -- where was the village site?  27 A    On the north side.  28 Q    Was there access to that site?  29 A    There was a bridge across the river and a trail to  30 the north side.  The village was literally emptied of  31 the belongings and the artefacts of the Gitksan people  32 who lived in that village and owned the ceremonial  33 regalia, rifles, clothing, almost anything that could  34 be carried away was taken away by the workers who went  35 by that village.  36 Q    Was there ever -- was there any road building in  37 the -- through the village on the north side?  38 A    Yes.  Prior to 1967, I think about 1965, a road  39 was -- larger bridge was put in at the old bridge site  40 and a road was built ten miles east up the mountain  41 beyond Kisgagas.  42 Q    And did that road -- building of that road have any  43 impact on the village that you observed?  44 A    Further destruction.  45 Q    In what sense?  46 A    People who could then drive into the village and  47 take what still remained in the village which was of, 7856  N. Sterritt (for Plaintiff)  In chief by Mr. Rush  1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  THE  THE  THE  MR.  you know -- it was what people had already picked over  but still people would take that and also some burning  of buildings and from people who were -- who would go  there and camp and party, and generally -- and also  the removal of gravestones, were taken away.  Q    And what was it that you observed to indicate that  kind of removal of gravestones and the burning that  you talked about?  A    Well, I had seen -- I had seen a gravestone in  Hazelton that had been taken from there that  disappeared after that.  It was in someone's  possession.  I saw -- well, the bell from a church  that was there was removed.  The damage -- the burning  to one or two of the buildings that was there, I saw  that not long after it happened to one of them.  And  well, that's -- those are the main things.  Q    You mentioned -- what was the period that you  observed that the burning of dwellings or things at  Kisgagas occurred?  A    1967.  I was there in 1967.  COURT:  Is this the location where there is the deserted  church with the lettering on the --  WITNESS:  Yes, it is.  Yes.  COURT:  Thank you.  RUSH:  Q  MR.  THE  THE  Now, Mr. Sterritt, are there cabins or dwellings  located at the village of Kisgagas?  Yes.  Where are they located?  There are still four buildings on the north side of  the Babine at Kisgagas and there are a number of  houses on the south side of the river opposite village  of Kisgagas.  There is, I believe it is, six or seven.  All right.  And who has a house on the south side?  My father.  Yes?  Robert Jackson Senior, Joshua McLean, James  Morrison, Billy McLean, and there are a couple of  smoke houses there as well.  All right.  And —  Well, they are not all together, are they?  I seem  to recall there was only two.  Are there some a little  distance away?  WITNESS:  On the south side of the Babine River, they are  spread along within -- well, from the one on the east  to the one on the west, it wouldn't be more than 200  yards.  You wouldn't be able to see them from the  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  RUSH:  COURT 7857  N. Sterritt (for Plaintiff)  In chief by Mr. Rush  1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  THE  MR.  THE  THE  MR.  Kisgagas side because they are off away from the  clearing.  The two that we could view from Kisgagas  were near the clearing and then there is some on  either side of that.  COURT:  Yes, all right.  Thank you.  RUSH:  Q    You indicated your father has a cabin in Kisgagas.  Does he have another cabin north and east of Kisgagas?  A    Yes.  Q    Have you been there?  A    Yes, I have.  I helped to build that cabin.  Q    And what's that cabin used for?  A    It is a cabin that he used to trap from and to hunt  mountain goats and moose.  And is that the way this cabin is used today?  Yes, it is.  It is a cabin that he shares with  Robert Jackson Senior, the two of them built it.  Where is this cabin, please?  Q  A  COURT  WITNESS:  It's north-east of the village of Kisgagas up  on -- up at -- just at the timberline.  MR.  THE  MR.  THE  MR.  RUSH:  Q    I wonder if you could step down from the witness  stand and point out to his lordship just where that  cabin is located?  A    The village of Kisgagas is right here and the cabin  is located ten miles almost directly east of Kisgagas  up in the mountain here.  The Babine River runs in  this direction.  It is right in there.  Q    And Robert Jackson Senior is from the house of  Miluulak?  A    Yes.  RUSH:  Madam registrar, would you show Mr. Sterritt please  the Volume 2 of the document books, his document book?  REGISTRAR:  Exhibit 9.  RUSH:  Tab 70.  REGISTRAR:  70, my lord.  RUSH:  Q    Mr. Sterritt, I am referring you to Volume 2 of your  book of documents and it's found at tab 70 of this  volume and I wonder if you can identify the  photograph -- the top photograph of the two that are  on that page?  A    Yes, I can.  That is the cabin of my father's at  Kisgagas on the south side of the Babine.  Q    Okay.  And is that cabin in use today by your father  and your family?  A    Yes.  He has been out there for part of the summer  Oh, these are the ones at the back.  It is the ones that aren't marked. 785?  N. Sterritt (for Plaintiff)  In chief by Mr. Rush  1 with his sons.  2 MR. RUSH:  Okay.  Now, although this may be somewhat out of  3 sequence, I am going to ask Mr. Sterritt to identify  4 himself in the lower of the two photographs at tab 70.  5 MR. GOLDIE:  He did.  6 MR. RUSH:  He did.  7 MR. GOLDIE:  Months ago.  8 MR. RUSH:  Excellent.  Now, Mr. — I am going to ask if that tab  9 be marked as the next exhibit, please.  10 THE REGISTRAR:  Be Exhibit 693.  11 THE COURT:  I am sorry?  12 THE REGISTRAR:  Number 693.  13  14 (EX. 693 TAB 7 0 - BLACK BOOK VOL. 2 - TWO PHOTOGRAPHS)  15  16 MR. RUSH:  17 Q    And please refer to tab 72, Mr. Sterritt?  18 A    Yes.  19 Q    Can you identify the photographs for us, please?  20 The top one first?  21 A    Yes.  That's the cabin of my father's and Robert  22 Jackson Senior.  23 Q    Is that the one that you pointed out as being  24 approximately ten miles east of Kisgagas?  25 A    Yes, it is.  26 Q    Do you know when that photograph was taken?  27 Obviously during the winter, but what year?  28 A   As I recall, it is in the winter of 1985.  2 9 Q    All right.  And the lower of the two photographs?  30 A    Yes.  That's a -- there is a lake just west of that  31 cabin and this photograph has been taken from close to  32 the cabin towards that lake.  That is Billy McLean and  33 Joshua McLean, both from the House of Nii kyap, on the  34 skidoos and the mountain in the distance is -- pardon  35 me, that's Daahl an makhl.  36 THE COURT:  I am sorry?  37 THE WITNESS:  D-a-a-h-1 space a-n space m-a-k-h-1.  38 THE COURT:  694.  39 MR. RUSH:  Thank you.  40 THE REGISTRAR:  694.  41  42 (EX. 694 TAB 72 - BLACK BOOK VOL. 2 - TWO PHOTOGRAPHS)  43  44 THE COURT:  Convenient to adjourn, Mr. Rush?  45 MR. RUSH:  All right, thank you.  Tab 72.  46 THE COURT:  All right, thank you.  Ten o'clock tomorrow morning.  47 Thank you, madam reporter. 7859  N. Sterritt (for Plaintiff)  In chief by Mr. Rush  1 THE REGISTRAR:  Order in court.  Court will adjourn until 10:00  2 tomorrow morning.  3  4 I hereby certify the foregoing to be  5 a true and accurate transcript of the  6 proceedings herein, transcribed to the  7 best of my skill and ability.  8  9  10  11  12    13 TANNIS DEFOE, Official Reporter  14 United Reporting Service Ltd.  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47

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