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Delgamuukw Trial Transcripts

[Proceedings of the Supreme Court of British Columbia 1988-06-23] British Columbia. Supreme Court Jun 23, 1988

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 7208  N.J. Sterritt (for Plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Rush 1  Vancouver, B.C.  2 June 23, 198 8  3  4 (PROCEEDINGS RECONVENED AT 10:00 a.m.)  5  6 THE REGISTRAR:  Order in court.  In the Supreme Court of British  7 Columbia, this Thursday, June 23, 1988.  Calling  8 Delgamuukw versus Her Majesty the Queen at bar.  9 THE COURT:  I am sure counsel would be interested to know we are  10 approaching a new record.  We hit 714 trials that were  11 set for trial in May of this year and we expect to  12 exceed that in June.  It's going up exponentially.  13  14 N.J. STERRITT:  Previously sworn  15  16 THE REGISTRAR:  I caution the witness, you are still under oath.  17 THE WITNESS:  Thank you.  18 MR. GRANT:  My Lord, Exhibit 612-A, the affidavit of Alice  19 Sampson, I provided to Madam Registrar yesterday and  20 copies to my friends, so that now is in the exhibits.  21 That's a translation.  22 THE COURT:  All right, thank you.  23 Did counsel get a chance to look at Mr. Smith's  24 paper?  25 MR. RUSH:  No, not yet, My Lord.  Still trying to track it down.  26 THE COURT:  Well, I am too.  My secretaries were at courses  27 yesterday so I couldn't find my copy either so I  28 haven't had a look at it, but I'll no doubt have it  29 today.  3 0 MR. RUSH:  31 Q   Mr. Sterritt, in your evidence a few days ago, you  32 made mention of the Chris Harris map; do you recall  33 that?  34 A   Yes, I do.  35 Q   And you indicated that you became aware of the map's  36 existence, I think, sometime in late '74?  37 A   Yes, that's right.  38 Q   And you had an opportunity of viewing that map, as I  39 understand it?  40 A   Yes.  41 Q   And in what form was the map which you viewed, do you  42 recall?  43 A   It was on tracing paper.  There were territories that  44 had been drawn on the map by Mr. Harris and there were  45 features on the territory, some rivers, some creeks  46 and some lakes.  47 Q   Okay.  And I think you said that Mr. Chris Harris held 7209  N.J. Sterritt (for Plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Rush 1 the name of Luus?  2 A   Yes, he did.  3 Q   And evidence has been given that a Mr. Abel Tait held  4 the name of Luus at one time.  Did Chris Harris hold  5 the name before or after Mr. Tait?  6 A   Yes.  When Abel Tait died, Chris Harris took the name  7 of Luus.  8 Q   All right.  Now, I would like to show you an exhibit  9 in the proceedings here.  I'm going to ask you to  10 refer Mr. Sterritt to Exhibit 22.  I'm referring, Mr.  11 Sterritt, to Exhibit 22.  12 THE REGISTRAR:  It was marked for ID., it is not an exhibit.  13 MR. RUSH:  14 Q   Very well, thank you.  15 Do you recognize this map, Mr. Sterritt?  16 A   Yes, I do.  17 Q   Okay.  And can you identify who prepared this map?  18 A   I prepared this map and part of the information is  19 from a tracing that I did of the Chris Harris map.  20 Q   Okay.  Is the -- is this map the copy of a tracing  21 that you did of the Chris Harris map?  22 A   Yes, it is.  23 Q   Okay.  And do you remember when it was that you did  24 the tracing?  25 A   It was in 1975.  2 6 Q   Do you remember about what time it was in that year?  27 A   Chris Harris passed away early in 1975, and I traced  28 this map just before he passed away.  29 Q   And you say there is other information on the map in  30 addition to the tracing?  31 A   Yes, there is.  32 THE COURT:  I'm sorry, could I just ask, is that a duplicate of  33 Mr. Harris' map or is it Mr. Harris' map with some  34 additions that you put on it?  35 THE WITNESS:  It's Mr. Harris' map plus some additions.  I  36 traced Mr. Harris' map onto a transparency.  37 THE COURT:  Yes.  38 THE WITNESS:  And then I added other information on the  39 transparency.  This is a copy of that transparency.  4 0 THE COURT:  Okay.  41 MR. RUSH:  42 Q   Mr. Sterritt, I just want to refer you to the legend  43 where it indicates that the map was drawn by N.J.  44 Sterritt, 14-1-76?  45 A   Yes.  It's in the legend on the bottom.  46 Q   Okay.  Now, you just indicated a moment ago that it  47 was '75.  Was it drawn in '75 or '76? 7210  N.J. Sterritt (for Plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Rush 1 A   I added the  legend, I would say, in 1976.  I drew  2 the -- I did the work from Chris Harris' map just  3 before he died, and as I recall, Chris Harris died in  4 January or February of 1975, and this is a tracing of  5 a map that was in the possession of Chris Harris.  I  6 believe he put the lines on that, he drew it, but I'm  7 not sure about that.  8 Q   Okay.  Now what led you to do a tracing of this map?  9 A   The hereditary chiefs had asked me and others to do  10 some work on the boundaries of the Gitksan, and this  11 was the first representation that I had seen of some  12 of the territories of the Gitksan, and I felt that it  13 would be useful to begin with what had already been  14 done by Chris Harris.  15 Q   Was Chris Harris, was he a person who had been trained  16 as a cartographer, a map maker, to your knowledge?  17 A   Not to my knowledge.  18 Q   You indicated that there were -- there was information  19 that you placed on this map.  Can you tell His  20 Lordship what it was that you placed on the map after  21 you made the tracing?  22 A   Yes.  You see a dotted line on the upper right side of  23 the map and across the northern end of the map, that  24 dotted line was added by me.  The printing "Boundary  25 per Billy Moat trapline, Boundary per Sam Morrison  26 trapline," and so on, down on the right-hand side, was  2 7 added by me.  28 MR. RUSH:  Now, if you'll just pause there, please.  I'm just  29 going to ask you -- Your Lordship doesn't have a copy  30 of this, and it might be useful if you had one of  31 these in front of you to follow.  I wonder, Mr.  32 Sterritt, if you could hand your copy to Madam  33 Registrar and I'll give you my copy which is Exhibit  34 22, placed in my handwriting.  35 MR. GOLDIE:  Just to make sure we are all looking at the same  36 thing, this is marked exhibit -- this is a copy of  37 what was marked as Exhibit 20 in Mr. Sterritt's  38 examination for discovery?  39 MR. RUSH:  It's the same one.  It was the one that was marked in  40 these proceedings as Exhibit 22 for identification.  41 MR. GOLDIE:  Well, I haven't got that marking on mine.  I just  42 want to make sure that what I'm looking at is what is  43 indeed marked as Exhibit 22, and I identify it as a  44 copy of Mr. Sterritt's -- the examination for  45 discovery of Mr. Sterritt as Exhibit 20.  46 THE COURT:  Mine has typed onto it, it says, "Sterritt  47 Examination for Discovery, Exhibit 20," in the legend. 7211  N.J. Sterritt (for Plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Rush 1    MR. GOLDIE:  Yes.  All  right, I think it's the same one.  2 THE COURT:  Thank you.  3 MR. RUSH:  4 Q   Now -- all right, Mr. Sterritt, now that His Lordship  5 has a copy of the Chris Harris map that you traced, I  6 wonder if you would just go back again and repeat what  7 it was that you said that was added to the map by  8 yourself after the tracing?  9 A   Yes.  On the upper right corner there is a dotted line  10 that runs north-west/south-east, and there is writing  11 on the left-hand side of that line, "Boundary per  12 Billy Moat trapline" — TL — actually, T slash L,  13 meaning trapline.  "Boundary per Sam Morrison T/L,"  14 being boundary for Sam Morrison trapline, et cetera.  15 There are others going on down, those were added by  16 me.  There is a notation on the right-hand side says,  17 "per Thomas Wright," it's to the right of the dotted  18 line, it's a dashed line, and that indicates some  19 information that Thomas Wright gave me.  The legend  20 itself on the very bottom is -- was added by me, that  21 would not appear on the Chris Harris map.  22 Q   I take it that the -- that the box at the bottom is  23 what you say was added?  24 A   Yes.  The box with the printing and the scale inside.  25 Q   The word -- the printed or typed/printed words "Neil  26 Sterritt version of Chris Harris map, Sterritt  27 Examination for Discovery, Exhibit 20," I take it that  28 wasn't added by you?  29 A   No, it was not.  30 Q   All right.  And then as you are coming -- you are at  31 the bottom of the map now?  32 A  Moving to the left at the bottom near the legend,  33 there is another dashed line and some printing,  34 "Overlap?".  And moving up that dotted line there is  35 further printing, an indication of the Kiteen River,  36 and then another "Overlap?  Kitwancool erects boundary  37 marker."  38 MR. RUSH:  You see that in the bottom left-hand corner of the  3 9 map, My Lord?  4 0 THE COURT:  Yes.  41 THE WITNESS:  January 9th, 1976, all of that including the  42 dotted line that continues up in the left-hand -- up  43 to the middle left, "Mount Patullo.  Nisga'a  44 declaration re: 1968 court case.  4400 square miles  45 drawn by N.J. Sterritt," I added that.  46 MR. RUSH:  That, My Lord, is in the left-hand middle of the map.  47 THE WITNESS:  Right at the north arrow, at the top of the north 7212  N.J. Sterritt (for Plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Rush 1 arrow.  2 THE COURT:  Oh yes, yes.  3 THE WITNESS:  There is a dotted line, "Bob and Steve Skawil  4 trapline," underneath it, "Wilitsxw trapline."  That  5 same dotted line continues to the east, it says  6 "Kuldoe per N.J. Sterritt," or "per N.J.S.," meaning  7 myself.  And then underneath, "Kitwancool per N.J.S.,"  8 and then I have added the notation, "Kitwancool  9 boundary per Chris Harris," coming down along the --  10 to the right of the Nass River, approximately three  11 inches.  12 MR. RUSH:  Right.  My Lord, there is a dotted line.  13 THE COURT:  Yes, I have it.  14 MR. RUSH:  15 Q   Yes, all right.  16 A   I've also added a dotted line leaving that one and  17 going to the east or to the right of the Kitwancool  18 boundary per Chris Harris, and it indicates "Kuldoe  19 per Chris Harris," and, "Kispiox per Chris Harris,"  2 0 and that I have added.  If we go back up to Bowser  21 Lake in the --  22 Q   I think you had left at Mount -- is this Mount  23 Patullo?  24 A   Patullo, straight north of the north arrow on up.  I  25 added the north arrow too, if I didn't mention that.  26 David Gunanoot, there is a dotted line, this boundary  27 drawn from outline of Gunanoot and Skawil traplines,  28 and continuing on up to the dotted line all around the  2 9 north which I added.  30 Q   Okay.  There is a dotted line which runs from  31 approximately the upper left-hand quadrant of the map  32 and it runs in apparently a semi-circle around the top  33 of the map.  Was that dotted line placed there by you?  34 A   Yes.  35 MR. GOLDIE:  And the co-ordinates?  36 A   I added the crosses that you see running across the  37 top, and the co-ordinates up on top as well to -- in  38 order to locate the overlay on a base map at 1:250,000  39 scale.  This map is at a 1:250,000 scale, or one inch  40 equals four miles, approximately.  41 MR. RUSH:  42 Q   Is there anything else on this map that you added?  43 A   Not without a -- not that I can see without a very  44 close scrutiny.  I think that other than the major  45 additions, I don't see anything else.  46 Q   Well, for example, I'm pointing to the upper right-  47 hand corner, Ground Hog Mountain.  Is that your 7213  N.J. Sterritt (for Plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Rush 1              addition or was  that Mr. Harris ' ?  2 A   It could be on both but I'm not sure about that, I  3 would have to check closer.  I may have added that.  4 Wherever there is a notation "boundary per" -- well,  5 for example, "Charlie Stevens T/L," I added those  6 notations.  There is a dotted line immediately above  7 the legend towards the right-hand side and I added  8 that line as well as Hazelton Peak and Kitwancool.  9 Q   The line that you -- the dotted line that you added  10 that relates to the Kitwancool and Nisga'a on the  11 left-hand side and the reference that is made there,  12 what was the reason for adding that?  13 A   I was attempting to plot the eastern boundary of the  14 Nisga'a according to the petition of 1913, and the  15 declaration in the 1968 court case, and it was to  16 compare the Nisga'a declaration with the territories  17 of the Kitwancool and the territories that Chris  18 Harris was -- had drawn on his map.  19 Q   Okay.  When did you do that?  2 0 A   In the summer of 1975.  21 THE COURT:  Could you state again just briefly what it was that  22 you did in the summer of 1975 as you just described?  23 THE WITNESS:  I added the — I read the Nisga'a declaration and  24 the Nisga'a petition of 1913 which has a description  25 of the territory of the Nisga'a, and I added -- I drew  26 that boundary on this overlay to compare it with the  27 territory of the Kitwancool and the boundaries as  28 drawn by Chris Harris.  2 9    THE COURT:  All right.  3 0    MR. RUSH:  31 Q   All right.  And in the upper right-hand corner of that  32 map, there are several notations, Mr. Sterritt, and I  33 give as an example the one at the top, "Boundary per  34 Billy Moat," M-o-a-t, "T/L".  What does that  35 represent?  36 A  At that time I was referred to the trapline maps in  37 the care of the Department of Indian Affairs in  38 Hazelton, they had a set of maps and I went to those  39 maps and transferred the information as closely as I  40 could to the overlay that I had here in an effort to  41 determine where the Billy Moat -- and Billy Moat being  42 Muut from the House of Nii Kyap, where his territory  43 was, and I did a similar exercise on down the east  44 side there.  Now I should say that there is -- there  45 are several sets of maps of the Department of Indian  46 Affairs, and it would be from the later maps that I  47 would have drawn that boundary, because the earlier 7214  N.J. Sterritt (for Plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Rush  Submissions by counsel  1 maps were straight lines.  2 THE COURT:  This map is not to any accurate scale, is it?  3 THE WITNESS:  The river, the Nass River, the Skeena River, the  4 place names that are on here can be accurately located  5 to an underlay very similar to the one you see in  6 front of you that I pasted together myself in 1974-  7 1975, and the overlay would be fairly accurate.  The  8 boundaries and some of the features don't fit for a  9 number of reasons and we will explain that later, but  10 you can get a general idea from the overlay on a -- on  11 a base map like this where the features are and  12 general indication of where the territories are.  13 THE COURT:  Thank you.  14 MR. RUSH:  15 Q   Now just with reference to the markings that you  16 placed on there, and I again quote, "Boundary per  17 Billy Moat T/L," you indicated that you obtained the  18 information that led you to put that line there from a  19 map in the possession of the Department of Indian  20 Affairs.  And why did you use that map?  21 A   The hereditary chiefs believed that the trapline maps  22 in the care of the Department of Indian Affairs  23 represented their hereditary territories, and they had  24 passed a resolution in the summer of 1975, directing  25 that we do a map representing their hereditary  26 territories based on the trapline -- based on the  27 traplines in the care of the Department of Indian  28 Affairs.  29 Q   And is that what led you to those maps?  3 0 A   Yes, it was.  31 Q   Now, how did you use -- if you did use -- the Chris  32 Harris map that you've traced here?  33 MR. GOLDIE:  Well, My Lord, I am not too sure what relevance  34 this has, but I think I ought to state that if Mr.  35 Sterritt is going to be asked to express any opinion  36 with respect to the accuracy of this, then I am  37 objecting to it because he is not qualified.  And  38 during his examination for discovery it was expressly  39 disclaimed that he was able to mark anything on a map  40 accurately.  And I would -- this is very interesting  41 and no doubt -- and there is a more -- no doubt, some  42 submission may be made with respect to the Chris  43 Harris map, but so far as the witness making markings  44 on this map is concerned, I in my -- my submission, he  45 is not qualified to do so.  Markings on a map is  46 simply a way of expressing an opinion and he is not  47 qualified to do that. MR. RUSH:  Well, I don't  7215  N.J. Sterritt (for Plaintiffs)  Submissions by counsel 1  note an objection to any question I  2 asked, My Lord.  I appreciate my friend's comments but  3 my question was, "How did you use the map?"  4 MR. GOLDIE:  Well, I'm objecting to that question.  5 MR. RUSH:  And I don't think there is any basis at all for such  6 an objection.  This witness may have used the map in a  7 hundred different ways, he may have wallpapered his  8 room with it.  He will not be asked questions like  9 that.  He used the map for a specific purpose and it  10 relates to the conduct of Mr. Sterritt as a person who  11 was doing research with the hereditary chiefs  12 gathering information about their territories, and  13 conduct flowed from his access to this map, and it's  14 that to which I'll be directing Your Lordship.  15 THE COURT:  Well, aren't we in an unnecessary difficulty when we  16 have someone who is -- does have some qualifications  17 on mapping is being tendered as a person without such  18 qualifications, if I can put it perhaps crudely and  19 bluntly.  Doesn't Mr. Sterritt's training as a  20 geological technician at least give him some  21 qualifications in the use of maps and the preparation  22 of them?  Why are we treating him as something  23 different from what he is?  24 MR. GOLDIE:  Well, I am not, I am not.  The point of my comment  25 is that there is another copy -- I shouldn't say the  26 point of my comment, but Your Lordship ought to know  27 that there is another copy of the Chris Harris map  28 made by the cartographer.  And as far as I'm  29 concerned, the cartographer is the one who can be  30 examined as to the accuracy of the translation of the  31 Chris Harris map, the original of which I understand  32 has been destroyed, that's what I was informed.  33 THE COURT:  The original Chris Harris map?  34 MR. GOLDIE:  The original Chris Harris map, unless my — I  35 welcome my friends correcting me in that regard, but  36 that is my understanding.  But there are two tracings,  37 one made by a cartographer and one made by Mr.  38 Sterritt.  39 THE COURT:  Are they different?  40 MR. GOLDIE:  I don't know.  But that's — they, of course, don't  41 have a number of things on them.  Presumably the  42 cartographer's map is a truer copy of what Harris  43 did --  44 THE COURT:  Well, it's —  45 MR. GOLDIE:  — than this one?  46 THE WITNESS:  It's an unimproved copy.  47 MR. GOLDIE:  And therefore it may have a greater degree of 7216  N.J. Sterritt (for Plaintiffs)  Submissions by counsel 1 historical  On Mr. Sterritt's  examination for discovery on March the 26th of 1987,  page 554, Mr. Grant said:  MR. GRANT:  "Well, I am producing for the record a  map which has, at the bottom, a legend  drawn by Mr. Sterritt 14176.  I have been  informed by Mr. Sterritt that this map is  the copy of the Chris Harris map which he  drew of the Chris Harris map.  I have  also been informed by Mr. Sterritt that  he has put things on this map which were  not on Chris Harris's map.  MR. GOLDIE:  All right.  Now, give me again the  relationship between this document which  was drawn by Mr. Sterritt and the first  map that you produced this morning which  I understood you to say was a copy of  that?  MR. GRANT:  The map that I produced earlier this  morning was produced by our cartographer.  MR. GOLDIE:  This is Mr. George?  MR. GRANT:  Mr. George.  MR. GOLDIE:  Yes.  MR. GRANT:  From his — he had an opportunity to  examine Mr. Harris's map and what he had  been requested to do, or what he did, was  he made a copy of it so that it was in a  preservable form from that map.  He made  no further changes or additions to it."  Now, that's the map that I think if it has any  relevance at all to these proceedings, is the one that  should be produced.  :  Well, if the purpose of the evidence was to prove  Mr. Harris' map, I think that subject to your friends  I would agree with you there, Mr. Goldie.  But does  that stop this witness from describing what he did  with his copy of Mr. Harris' map?  £:  Well on that score, what I wish to draw Your  Lordship's attention to was in his examination for  discovery on March the 24th, 1987, at page 322, I was  examining him with respect to changes that had been  made in the boundaries, and I said:  "I want you  to" -- this is page 322 and part of question 1489:  1489  Q  "And I want you to approximate for me, by  elevance to  this case.  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  THE COURT  36  37  38  39  40  MR. GOLDI  41  42  43  44  45  46  47 7217  N.J. Sterritt (for Plaintiffs)  Submissions by counsel  Ruling by the Court  1 the use of that map --"  2  3 Which is the map attached to the Statement of Claim.  4  5 "-- or by any other means that you want  6 to, the territory which the Tahltan  7 claim, which falls within this  8 territory -- 'this' meaning the territory  9 which is the subject-matter of the  10 Plaintiffs in this action?  11 MR. GRANT:  Just for the record before Mr.  12 Sterritt commences any drawing on this is  13 not -- or any depiction he makes is not  14 to be imputed as being accurate, and he  15 is not a cartographer, and we have a  16 cartographer who is doing that."  17  18 Now, that was the basis upon which I conducted my  19 examination for discovery, and it is on the basis of  20 which I object to questions which call upon the  21 witness to express opinions with respect to accuracy.  22 THE COURT:  Surely Mr. Grant meant — departing from his usual  23 perfection -- he meant when he said accurate he meant  24 precise, didn't he?  25 MR. GOLDIE:  Well, I take it he meant -- he introduced the word  26 cartographer.  2 7    THE COURT:  Yes.  28 MR. GOLDIE:  And I take it he meant, "You are not to assume that  29 the opinion of Mr. Sterritt as expressed in what he is  30 going to draw on this map, is accurate."  31 THE COURT:  Well, I think that there are two questions here.  I  32 think that, as I've said already, that I think the  33 cartographer's version of Chris Harris' map may be the  34 best evidence for the purpose of proving it, the  35 contents of Chris Harris' map.  I do not think, with  36 respect, that that precludes this witness from saying  37 what he did with Mr. Harris' map, subject to the  38 objection made that he is not tendered as an expert in  39 these matters and therefore cannot express opinions.  40 But I think he can say what he did, because someone  41 else may express an opinion on that.  The opinion may  42 be subject to the infirmities of Mr. Sterritt's  43 qualifications and there may be other arguments to be  44 advanced, but I think that it is unobjectionable for  45 Mr. Sterritt to say what he did with Mr. Harris' map,  46 as long as he doesn't express opinions.  I do not  47 think, with respect, that it is quite correct to say 7218  N.J. Sterritt (for Plaintiffs)  Ruling by the Court  In chief by Mr. Rush  1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9    ]  MR. RUSH  10  Q  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  A  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  Q  26  27  A  28  Q  29  30  A  31  Q  32  33  34  35  36  A  37  Q  38  39  40  A  41  Q  42  A  43  Q  44  45  46  A  47  that everytime a person marks a map he is expressing  an opinion, stating his evidence in a graphic way and  there may be a mixed or favoured opinion in that, but  I think we all recognize the distinction.  But I think  Mr. Rush may proceed with his examination.  I am glad  to have this explanation, I have a better understanding of what to look out for.  So, shall we  proceed?  Just to advise Your Lordship, that the tracing that  was made by Mr. George was available to my learned  friend at the discovery, and I will be introducing it  here.  Mr. Sterritt, having made the additions that you  did to the tracing that you made, how did you use the  Chris Harris map in the work you were doing?  I used it in a general way to help to locate  information, the location of hereditary chiefs and  their territories within the overall Gitksan  territory.  I also cross-referenced it to try and  determine whether the person located on that area was  the proper hereditary chief within our system in that  area.  I did that by consulting with other hereditary  chiefs.  Now, are you aware of a tracing that was done by  Marvin George of the Chris Harris map?  Yes, I am.  All right.  If you were shown that, would you be able  to identify the tracing as Marvin George's?  Yes, I would.  Now, just before I show you the tracing of Marvin  George, Mr. Sterritt, I wanted to ask you about the  lettering of what appears to be hereditary chiefs'  names bounded by certain lines on this map.  Is that  lettering your lettering?  Yes, it is.  All right.  For example, in the upper left-hand corner  there is lettering of N-i-i-s-t, Niist.  Is that  lettering that you placed on there?  Yes, it is.  All right.  From information contained on the map of Chris Harris.  All right.  Now, as you remember the map, was there  lettering like that or was there a word Niist on the  Chris Harris map that you traced from?  There was the word Niist on the map, it wasn't  lettered the way I print.  This is my printing and 7219  N.J. Sterritt (for Plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Rush 1 someone else put  the name on the Chris Harris map.  2 Q   All right.  I'm just going to ask you to keep that one  3 in your lap.  Show you another map and ask you if you  4 can identify this as the tracing that was done by  5 Marvin George.  This is a -- now, can you identify  6 this map?  7 A   Yes.  This is the map that Marvin George drew from the  8 Chris Harris tracing.  9 THE COURT:  Sorry, he drew or he —  10 THE WITNESS:  Pardon me.  Well, he — yes, he drew this map.  11 THE COURT:  I see.  He didn't — he didn't just reproduce it?  12 THE WITNESS:  No, no.  I — he put an overlay — a mylar film, I  13 believe, over the -- no, it wouldn't be mylar, it  14 would be tracing paper over the Chris Harris map, and  15 then he drew the lines as they appear here, and he  16 lettered in with a lettering pen, a lettering set, the  17 information that was on the Chris Harris map.  18 THE COURT:  All right.  I don't suppose you saw him do that?  19 THE WITNESS:  I did see him do part of it, I didn't see him do  20 all of it.  21 MR. RUSH:  22 Q   Now, Mr. Sterritt, the question I had to ask of you  23 pertained to the lettering that appears on the map  24 that you have identified as the tracing done by Marvin  25 George of the Chris Harris map.  The lettering -- and  26 I'll take again the example in the upper left-hand  27 corner, the lettering N-i-i-s-t, or the word  28 N-i-i-s-t, is that as you recall, the lettering of the  29 word Niist that appears on the Chris Harris map?  30 A   Yes, it is.  Except on the Chris Harris map it would  31 have been -- it might have been written rather than  32 printed, or it wasn't -- it wasn't like that, but yes.  33 Q   That word appeared but it didn't appear with that  34 lettering; is that right?  35 A   No, no, that's right.  36 Q   All right.  I want to show you as well, just under the  37 word Niist in the upper left-hand corner of the map  38 appears the word "Muckaboo Cr.," which I take to mean  39 creek, under a line which looks like a creek to my  40 eye.  Do you recall whether or not on the Chris Harris  41 map that word appeared, the Muckaboo Creek?  42 A   No, I don't recall.  43 Q   I notice that if I look to the map Exhibit 22, that  44 the creek does not appear on your copy of the tracing  45 of the Chris Harris map?  46 A   That's right.  47 Q   Now the words that appear in boldface when I gave the 7220  N.J. Sterritt (for Plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Rush 1 example of Niist,  is your evidence the same with  2 regard to all of the other boldfaced words on the map  3 of Marvin George?  4 A   Yes.  5 Q   And do you recall in the -- on the left-hand side of  6 the map there are a -- placed in diagonal -- on a  7 diagonal line, the words "Kitwancool" in two places,  8 do you recall whether or not those words were on the  9 original?  10 A   I believe they were.  11 Q   Do you know, Mr. Sterritt -- you said you were present  12 at a time when a portion of this map was drawn.  Do  13 you recall when that was?  14 A   It's within the last two years.  15 Q   Okay.  16 MR. GOLDIE:  I'm sorry, I want to be clear about this.  Is the  17 evidence of Mr. Sterritt that Mr. Marvin George drew  18 the map that he is reputed to have drawn, within the  19 past two years, that is, after Mr. Harris' death; is  20 that true?  21 MR. RUSH:  22 Q   Mr. Sterritt, is it your understanding that the map  23 that you have before you as the -- you've identified  24 as Marvin George's tracing of Chris Harris' map, is  25 that what you understand to have been traced in the  26 last two years?  27 A  Marvin George drew this after the death of Chris  28 Harris who died in the 1970's.  29 Q   All right.  Is that the best estimate you can give us  30 as to when it was -- it was sometime after Chris  31 Harris died; is that right?  32 A   Yes.  Quite a long time after he died.  33 MR. RUSH:  Okay.  I'm going to ask the map of Marvin George be  34 marked, My Lord.  35 MR. GOLDIE:  For identification.  36 MR. RUSH:  First, before I -- yes, I have no trouble with it  37 being marked as identification.  Mr. George will be  38 called as a witness.  39 THE COURT:  Yes, all right.  40 THE REGISTRAR:  Exhibit 645.  41 THE COURT:  64 5?  42 THE REGISTRAR:  Yes, My Lord.  43 THE COURT:  For identification?  44 THE REGISTRAR:  Yes.  45  46 (EXHIBIT 645 FOR IDENTIFICATION - Map of Marvin  47 George) 7221  N.J. Sterritt (for Plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Rush  Submissions by counsel  1 THE COURT:  Well, Mr. Sterritt, can I just ask: you saw Chris  2 Harris' original map, then?  3 THE WITNESS:  Yes, I did.  4 THE COURT:  Was it a hand-drawn map or was it a -- for want of a  5 better term, was it a professionally prepared map that  6 one buys from a government office or elsewhere on  7 which Mr. Harris had made notations?  8 THE WITNESS:  It was ordinary tracing paper that you could --  9 that was common in -- before we had the materials in  10 the last ten years.  In the 1970's you could buy  11 tracing paper.  It was tracing paper that was laid  12 over a set of maps put together like this, and drawn  13 on that.  14 THE COURT:  I see.  15 THE WITNESS:  And so that what -- so if you wanted to use that  16 map, you would have to put together a series of maps  17 like this and that you could locate them by the Skeena  18 river or the Nass River and know what the features  19 were underneath.  So he would have drawn his lines.  20 THE COURT:  As tracings of some other commercially prepared map?  21 THE WITNESS:  Yes.  22 THE COURT:  Yes, all right.  But his end product was a hand-  23 drawn map, was it?  24 THE WITNESS:  Oh yes, yes.  It was in pencil.  25 MR. RUSH:  The — My Lord, this — the other map, Exhibit 22 is  26 a map for identification.  May we have the map  27 exhibited in the proceedings?  28 MR. GOLDIE:  May I have an indication of why it's being -- for  29 what purpose it is being tendered?  30 MR. RUSH:  The map was initially tendered by the defendants on  31 June the 8th, '87.  My friend would have a better idea  32 at that time of why he tendered the map.  It was  33 marked for identification at that time, he was  34 examining about the map.  35 THE COURT:  I'm sorry, it was tendered by your friends when,  36 on --  37 MR. RUSH:  On June the 8th, 1987.  38 THE COURT:  At trial?  39 MR. RUSH:  At trial, during the examination -- cross-  40 examination of Mary Johnson, and that's why it was  41 marked for identification at that time.  Now, that map  42 is a map which, as I say, he was cross-examined on  43 during the cross-examination of Mary Johnson, and I  44 say that I am entitled on that basis alone to  45 introduce the map for the purposes of an exhibit at  46 these proceedings.  47 But quite apart from that, My Lord, the reason I'm 7222  N.J. Sterritt (for Plaintiffs)  Submissions by counsel  Ruling by the Court  1 introducing the map is to demonstrate the process that  2 Mr. Sterritt was engaged in at that time and followed  3 along thereafter to gather information, the steps he  4 took to gather information from the hereditary chiefs  5 to determine the boundaries of the -- first, the  6 external boundaries of the Gitksan and Wet'suwet'en,  7 and secondly, the internal boundaries of the Gitksan  8 and the internal boundaries of the Wet'suwet'en.  This  9 is part of the process by which Mr. Sterritt was  10 involved and which he followed through to the present  11 time in gathering that information.  And this is  12 the -- this is the -- if you will, one of the  13 beginning points of that process, and that's the  14 purpose of this.  And I think the fact -- I make  15 particular reference to the fact that on this map is  16 illustrated information garnered from another source,  17 that is to say, the maps held within the Department of  18 Indian Affairs, and an attempt to -- at that time, to  19 understand places and attaching names to places.  Now  20 I'll be leading further evidence of that process, this  21 is what I'm embarking upon at present.  22 THE COURT:  Well, I think the map may be marked as Exhibit 22,  23 but with the infirmities that the evidence attaches to  24 it.  25 MR. GOLDIE:  Well, that's why I ask my friend for what purpose,  26 because if it's tendered for the purpose of proving  27 these boundaries, I say it hasn't been done.  2 8 THE COURT:  I don't.  29 MR. GOLDIE:  But if it's tendered for the purpose of  30 demonstrating what Mr. Sterritt did, assuming that to  31 be relevant, then I agree it should go in.  32 THE COURT:  I think it should go in for at least that purpose,  33 and other purposes may emerge from other evidence.  34 But for the moment, I think it can go in on the basis  35 that it -- it is the best indication we have of the  36 process that Mr. Sterritt followed in collecting  37 information for the purpose of use at trial.  38 MR. GOLDIE:  Yes.  Properly described, it is a copy or an  39 alleged copy of a map created by the deceased Mr.  40 Chris Harris, with additions by Mr. Sterritt.  41 THE COURT:  Yes, that seems to be what it is.  Exhibit 22.  42 THE REGISTRAR:  Okay.  43  44 (EXHIBIT 22 - Copy of Chris Harris' Map with additions  45 by Neil Sterritt, previously Exhibit 22 for  46 identification)  47 7223  N.J. Sterritt (for Plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Rush 1    MR. RUSH:  Thank you.  You  can now set that aside, Mr. Sterritt.  2 THE COURT:  Am I finished with this, Mr. Rush?  3 MR. RUSH:  Yes, thank you.  4 Q   Now, Mr. Sterritt, you told us that you had been  5 referred to some maps in the possession of the  6 Department of Indian and Northern Affairs, Indian  7 Affairs at that time.  Where were these maps housed  8 when you first were referred to them?  9 A   They were located in the basement of the District  10 Office of the Department of Indian Affairs in  11 Hazelton.  12 Q   Okay.  And what material were the maps made of?  13 A   Primarily what you would call linen maps, and then  14 there were later maps that were on a -- there were  15 also some tracing paper maps that were used over the  16 linen maps.  17 Q   All right.  Now, do you recall the date of these maps  18 that you saw in the Department of Indian Affairs?  19 A   Yes.  There were notations on the maps by different  20 individuals, and the dates varied from the 1940's  21 through up into the 1960's.  22 Q   Okay.  Do you recall the type of information that was  23 contained on those maps?  24 A   The maps were drawn at a time when surveys were not  25 the base maps.  I should say, were drawn at a time  26 when there was not a lot of information to accurately  27 locate features.  So the major features that would be  28 on the maps were the Skeena River, the Nass River,  29 surveyed lots, and they were actually identified.  30 There was also information on the maps that had  31 been added, and these included notations that dealt  32 with who the area -- the trapline, the registered  33 trapline should belong to, transfers, deaths, and in  34 addition there was information on the maps filling in  35 the gaps that existed because of the lack of  36 information, topographical information at the time.  37 For example, a pencil line or a crayon line might be  38 drawn indicating a creek, and a Gitksan name or a  39 Wet'suwet'en name would appear next to that in  40 phonetics, or the translation of the Gitksan or  41 Wet'suwet'en name, and square lines or straight lines  42 indicating what presumably were trapline boundaries.  43 This information also referred to who was -- quite  44 often referred to who was providing the information.  45 Q   All right.  46 A   For example, Simon Morrison, Waiget, Herbert Morrison  47 from the House of Geel. 7224  N.J. Sterritt (for Plaintiffs)  Submissions by counsel 1    MR. GOLDIE:  Excuse me.  I  take it my friend is going to produce  2 these maps.  I understand them to be in the possession  3 of the plaintiffs.  4 MR. RUSH:  They are in the possession of the plaintiffs and I do  5 not intend to produce them unless my friend wants to  6 produce them himself.  7 MR. GOLDIE:  They are not in my possession.  I am asking you to  8 produce them, then.  9 MR. RUSH:  Well, the problem is, My Lord, that these are one  10 time -- my friend can view them, they have had ample  11 opportunity to review them and have reviewed them and  12 these -- these maps are one-of-a-kind, if you will,  13 they are old linen maps of considerable size.  We  14 tried to think of a convenient way of dealing with  15 them, such as photographing them or some other way  16 such as that, and we could not afford to do that.  And  17 I have a sample of one of those maps here.  There are,  18 I believe, some 20 of the maps.  The balance of them  19 are in Hazelton.  I would not want these maps to be  20 introduced as an exhibit for the main purpose that  21 they should -- as originals, I would not prefer them  22 to become exhibits in the proceedings, and I can't  23 think of any other convenient way of doing it.  24 My friends are -- have taken the opportunity of  25 examining the maps, there -- as I said, there was one  26 here for them to look at.  I don't intend to introduce  27 them, and I would make a strenuous argument about  28 their -- either the totality of them or even the one  29 that I have in its present form being introduced.  If  30 my friends want to take it away, they've had the  31 option to reproduce it in some way convenient to them,  32 they could do so.  But my submission is that because  33 of the nature of these, the plaintiffs prefer to keep  34 them in their possession, and I see no reason for  35 their production.  36 THE COURT:  Well, you are at liberty, Mr. Rush, to introduce  37 them or not introduce them as you prefer.  You've  38 indicated you don't propose to.  I take it your  39 friends have had access to them and they have further  40 access to them if they wish?  41 MR. RUSH:  Yes, that's right.  42 THE COURT:  If the defendants wish to introduce the maps, then I  43 will have to hear further argument, I suppose.  44 MR. GOLDIE:  Well, My Lord, it is to me, remarkable that the  45 plaintiff should lead evidence of a resolution passed  46 by the chiefs directing this witness to create a map  47 out of these maps, trapline maps, lead evidence of how 7225  N.J. Sterritt (for Plaintiffs)  Submissions by counsel 1 he used them,  and decline to produce them, and I mean  2 the originals.  My friend says we can't make copies, I  3 accept that.  But I think it's a remarkable thing that  4 the court should be denied the opportunity of seeing  5 what the witness says, "I used."  6 THE COURT:  Well I don't think that I've been denied that yet,  7 Mr. Goldie.  8 MR. GOLDIE:  I'm asking for their production in the courtroom  9 before I conclude the cross-examination of Mr.  10 Sterritt.  Now they can be brought here.  My friend  11 can address a submission to you, My Lord, if I seek to  12 have one of these documents marked, but that's got  13 nothing to do with producing a document which has been  14 listed, in the courtroom at the time when it's  15 required.  I know of no exception to the proposition  16 that if you list a document as relevant and production  17 is required in the courtroom for the purposes of the  18 trial, that in some way, shape or form, that's not  19 permitted.  20 MR. RUSH:  Until today, My Lord, no request was made for  21 production.  This is the first time you've heard it.  22 MR. GOLDIE:  I'm sorry.  23 MR. RUSH:  And -- excuse me, excuse me, I have a submission to  24 make.  And my submission is this:  On a previous  25 occasion, the plaintiffs were sent on a request --  26 requested to seek a document in Hazelton, Mr. James  27 Morrison.  He had to fly back to Hazelton to get the  28 document, the document was never put to the witness.  29 If my friends had wanted production of these maps  30 they could have asked for production of them ten days  31 ago, five days ago, and we could have had them.  I  32 brought one map down here, it's there for my friends  33 to see.  To be asked now to -- for my friend's  34 convenience, and it's his convenience, not ours,  35 because we are not seeking to introduce these, to  36 have -- to have the plaintiffs put to the expense to  37 bring these down here on this basis, I strongly object  38 to that, when there was ample opportunity for him to  39 indicate that he wanted these maps.  Remarkable or not  40 in his submission and in my submission, we have made  41 these maps available to them.  If they wanted to copy  42 them they could have copied them in totality.  43 On my submission, we -- it's not my intention to  44 lead the maps.  If my friend wants them it's up to  45 him.  Production of these, I say, is a matter of great  46 expense and inconvenience to my clients, and I don't  47 think they should be put to that on the basis of what 7226  N.J. Sterritt (for Plaintiffs)  Submissions by counsel  Ruling by the Court  1 my friend says we may or may not want to introduce one  2 or the other of these maps.  Now, if my friend wants  3 to have one of his staff go to Hazelton and review the  4 maps and decide what they are going to use, then I say  5 he is welcome to do it.  6 THE COURT:  Well, the — I'm sorry, Mr. Goldie.  7 MR. GOLDIE:  Well, I did ask for their production at Mr.  8 Sterritt's examination for discovery and I was told  9 they are too fragile to be transported.  Now, if one  10 of them can be brought down here all of them can be  11 brought down here.  And I didn't know that Mr.  12 Sterritt was going to be asked to give evidence with  13 respect to the use of these trapline maps, that's not  14 indicated in the summary of evidence that was given  15 me.  But I am saying that if my friend is going to  16 lead evidence that makes the reference of the kind  17 that he did, I am entitled to have those documents  18 produced.  19 THE COURT:  Mr. Macaulay?  20 MR. MACAULAY:  I have no submission to make about this.  21 THE COURT:  Thank you.  Well, I think Mr. Goldie has stated the  22 usual role that documents that have been listed,  23 disclosed, can be required to be produced.  And in the  24 ordinary course of events I would have no hesitation  25 in simply ordering that he produce them.  But I think  26 there may be some special circumstances in this  27 situation where, because of the fragility of the  28 documents or otherwise, there may be some difficulty  29 in their production.  I think that the court has the  30 authority to fashion an order that's tailor-made for  31 this particular situation, and I don't think that I  32 would order these maps just to be produced in the  33 courtroom for inspection.  I think that they should be  34 produced for the inspection of the representatives of  35 the defendants at their present location, and if at  36 that time upon inspection a decision is made that the  37 documents are required for use at the trial, well then  38 some arrangement will have to be made to either have  39 them brought here or for a usable copy to be produced.  40 I don't think that I ought to go further than that at  41 this time.  I am -- I won't order, and I don't think  42 it is necessary I order this, that the documents be  43 available for inspection at a convenient time in their  44 present location.  And if after that inspection it is  45 the decision of counsel that the documents are  46 required for the trial, well, then we will have to  47 proceed to the next step to see how that is to be 7227  N.J. Sterritt (for Plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Rush 1 done.  I'll leave  it to counsel to organize how that  2 inspection is to take place.  3 MR. GOLDIE:  I must say to Your Lordship that that order has  4 within it the seed of delay.  I am the only person who  5 can decide upon the appropriate use of these  6 documents.  I haven't heard and I may hear more  7 evidence, the witness may say, "I made a map of the  8 composite of these traplines."  9 THE COURT:  Yes.  10 MR. GOLDIE:  I'm the only person who can decide whether the --  11 whether there exists appropriate grounds for  12 cross-examination.  And if it turns out that I have to  13 go to Hazelton and make that inspection, then I will  14 ask Your Lordship to defer the continuation of the  15 cross-examination at that point.  16 THE COURT:  Well, I am not — I am not precluding that  17 possibility, Mr. Goldie.  On the other hand, it may be  18 that if a representative of yours looks at them, as a  19 result of your -- whatever inspection you make, you  20 will be able to make your decision and it may not be  21 necessary for you to personally see them.  But I would  22 be glad to hear from you again about it, but I think  23 there should be a staged inspection first and I won't  24 go any further than that at this moment.  25 MR. RUSH:  Just to point out to you, My Lord, the first stage  26 has occurred where they've been inspected once.  27 THE COURT:  I understand that.  But your friend says he wasn't  28 aware of the fact that you were going to be adducing  29 this evidence from this witness, and that certainly  30 does change the factual matrix to some extent, and  31 perhaps substantially.  32 MR. RUSH:  33 Q   Now, Mr. Sterritt, you've made reference to the linen  34 trapline maps housed with the Department of Indian  35 Affairs.  Did you meet with hereditary chiefs about  36 what was -- what you saw to be contained on those  37 maps?  38 A   Yes, I did.  39 Q   Who did you meet with?  40 A   I met with Luutkudziiwus which is Ben McKenzie  41 Q   Yes.  Anyone else?  42 A   I met with Txaaxwok, James Morrison.  43 Q   And did you -- did you have a discussion with them  44 about the maps or what they contain, and did you do  45 something about it after that?  46 A   Yes, I did.  I felt that these maps that were in the  47 care of the Department of Indian Affairs should 7228  N.J. Sterritt (for Plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Rush 1              properly be in the  hands of the Gitksan-Wet'suwet'en  2 Tribal Council on behalf of the hereditary chiefs, and  3 I arranged to have them transferred over from the  4 Department of Indian Affairs.  5 Q   Okay.  Now how, if at all, did you use the maps that  6 you made reference to as the linen trapline maps in  7 the work that you had?  8 A   I used them as a general guide to determine whether or  9 not the person who had a registered trapline in a  10 given area was the hereditary chief, the proper person  11 to hold the house territory.  For example, I sat down  12 with Luutkudziiwus, Ben McKenzie, and I reviewed his  13 trapline with him.  And during that discussion, he  14 indicated to me that the boundaries as defined were  15 wrong.  16 Q   Defined where?  17 A   On the trapline maps.  Because it did not include all  18 of his house territory.  And at a later date, I sat  19 down with Ben McKenzie when he outlined his house  20 territory to me.  21 Q   All right.  If you can just confine your evidence at  22 the moment to the question of how you used the  23 trapline, the linen trapline maps.  And you indicated  24 you met with Mr. McKenzie, Luutkudziiwus.  Did you do  25 anything after that?  26 A   Yes.  I met with other hereditary chiefs and reviewed  27 the information on the traplines with them on the  28 trapline maps, and from that I learned that some  29 people were not on the right lines, they were the sons  30 of hereditary chiefs or -- and I also learned that  31 some people were in the right area, generally in the  32 right area but not necessarily accurately.  33 Q   Okay.  Were these -- you indicated in your evidence  34 earlier that the maps that you recall contained names  35 of Gitksan names for geographical features.  Were  36 these maps of assistance to you in any way there?  37 A   To the extent that they gave a general location for a  38 place name, they were useful.  To the extent that the  39 surveys or the base of the topographic map of the  40 trapline map were very, very general, I could not  41 necessarily locate that on a map like the base map  42 beside us, the current N.T.S., National Topographic  43 System.  It was necessary to review that information  44 with a hereditary chief and see exactly, or as close  45 as possible, where that particular feature was,  46 whether it was a creek or a mountain or a lake.  47 Q   And the names that appeared in the maps that were not 7229  N.J. Sterritt (for Plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Rush 1 English names,  Gitksan-Wet'suwet'en names, did you  2 review those with hereditary chiefs?  3 A   Yes, I did.  Some of the maps had more information and  4 some had less, and yes, I would review that with them.  5 Or alternately, the spelling was done in such a way  6 that it was very hard to determine what was really --  7 what was really referred to, and eventually a  8 hereditary chief would give me a name for a creek that  9 was within his territory, and I would in reviewing  10 information on the map at a later date, would realize  11 that that was the name that was on the map.  An  12 example of that is a place called Xsi Luu Max Seexsit  13 that I couldn't -- I couldn't figure that out on the  14 map for several years, a number of years.  A  15 hereditary chief explained it to me, explained Xsi Luu  16 Max Seexsit to me.  17 Q   Who was that?  18 A  Martha Haimadam, Gallix A Gibuu, she explained the  19 name and the place, and later when, for another reason  20 I was examining the map, I realized the name on there  21 was supposed to be Xsi Luu Max Seexsit.  22 MR. RUSH:  Let's get the spelling of Xsi Luu Max Seexsit.  23 THE TRANSLATOR:  X-s-i-1-u-u-m-a-s-e-e-x-i-t.  2 4 MR. RUSH:  2 5 Q   And I don't know if we've had Martha Haimadam's name,  26 that was her Gitksan hereditary chief's name that you  27 gave?  28 A   Yes, Gallix A Gibuu.  And for your information, Xsi  29 Luu Max Seexsit, it is Malloch Creek.  30 Q   Malloch?  31 A  Malloch, M-a-1-l-o-c-h.  32 THE COURT:  Now, Martha's surname?  33 MR. RUSH:  Haimadam.  34 THE COURT:  As it sounds?  35 MR. RUSH:  Yes.  36 THE COURT:  One word?  37 MR. RUSH:  Yes.  38 THE COURT:  All right.  And then her Gitksan name?  39 THE TRANSLATOR:  How did you say it again?  40 THE WITNESS:  Gallix A Gibuu.  41 THE TRANSLATOR:  G-a-1 —  42 THE COURT:  Sorry, G-a?  43 THE TRANSLATOR:  — a-l-e-x space G-i-b-u-u.  44 THE COURT:  G-i-b-u-u.  All right.  Should we take the morning  45 adjournment?  46 MR. RUSH:  Thank you.  47 THE REGISTRAR:  Order in court.  Court will recess. 7230  N.J. Sterritt (for Plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Rush 1  2 (PROCEEDINGS ADJOURNED AT 11:15 a.m.)  3  4  5  6 I hereby certify the foregoing to be  7 a true and accurate transcript of the  8 proceedings herein transcribed to the  9 best of my skill and ability.  10  11  12  13  14  15  16 Toni Kerekes,  17 O.R., R.P.R.  18 United Reporting Service Ltd.  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  4 7 (PROCEEDINGS RESUMED PURSUANT TO ADJOURNMENT) 7231  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  Could it be placed before his lordship,  are you intending to have it  N. Sterritt (for Plfs.)  In Chief by Mr. Rush 1  THE COURT:  Mr. Rush.  MR. RUSH:  Thank you.  I should just point out, my lord, during  the break that my learned friend Mr. Goldie asked to  look at the one original of the linen trapline maps  that we had brought to Vancouver and he and along with  Mr. Macaulay, myself, reviewed this map.  MR. GOLDIE:  I think it might be useful for your lordship to see  this map.  please.  MR. RUSH:  Well, if there is  entered as an exhibit?  MR. GOLDIE:  No, no.  I want his lordship to see this, because  if I make a submission with respect to production of  these in the courtroom, I want your lordship to know  what it is that I am asking for and just exactly what  they are.  They -- does -- is the map still here?  MR. RUSH:  No.  I put it back.  MR. GOLDIE:  All right.  Well, I'd like your lordship to see it  after lunch.  THE COURT:  Is there any problem with that, Mr. Rush?  MR. RUSH:  No, no.  MR. MACAULAY:  I should say, my lord, it may be that there is  some surviving Indian agents, farmer Indians, retired  Indian agents who if shown a copy may be able to give  some collaboration about them. I hadn't realized. I  thought we had the original files.  THE COURT:  Yes.  MR. MACAULAY:  We appear to have the original files.  I just  asked the originals in the sense that they are hand  drawn maps in these files.  Now, I thought that that's  what we are referring to is these things.  I think  your lordship has seen one before in red ink and blue  ink and so forth, and pencilled notations, but that  map is different character altogether.  There are  notes of statements made by somebody in effect.  MR. RUSH: I am handing up to you a copy -- well, the original  of 38C, which was one of the linen trapline maps and  it's also --  THE COURT:  Yes.  All right.  Well, very interesting.  I take it  that these maps are not all of the same material as  that one?  MR. RUSH:  They are not all in the same condition.  They are  very much poorer condition, the others.  We brought  one here that was --  THE COURT:  Are they all in that same linen type material?  MR. RUSH:  Yes. 7232  N. Sterritt (for Plfs.)  In Chief by Mr. Rush 1    THE WITNESS:   No.  2 MR. RUSH:  Oh, I am sorry.  3 THE COURT:  I thought —  4 MR. RUSH:  I thought they were.  Maybe Mr. Sterritt —  5 THE COURT:  Some are tracing paper?  6 THE WITNESS:   There are some -- yes, there is some that is  7 tracing, that would go over a map like that and then  8 there are others that are on an almost like a table  9 cloth.  Maybe a similar texture to a table cloth.  10 And -- but this is one that is in quite good  11 condition.  There are a few others in this condition  12 and then some in very poor condition.  13 THE COURT:  And how many are there?  14 THE WITNESS:   About 20.  15 MR. MACAULAY:  I don't want to interrupt my friend's  16 examination, but perhaps you could clarify now whether  17 there are some original files also of the kind we have  18 that are individual trapline files.  19 MR. RUSH:  We have had individual trapline files registered in  20 the list of documents.  I am sorry, they are not  21 original but copies.  22 THE COURT:  Mr. Macaulay is asking whether you have —  23 MR. RUSH:  Originals of those?  24 THE COURT:  Of trapline files.  25 MR. RUSH:  No.  None that I have seen.  26 MR. MACAULAY:  Oh, all right.  27 THE COURT:  Well, it's very difficult to project forward very  28 far from examination of one interesting looking map.  29 I'm disposed to stay where I am at the moment and ask  30 Mr. Goldie to have the documents examined and if as a  31 result of his conversation with his inspector he wants  32 to apply to have the matter of the maps brought to  33 Vancouver or reproduced or something done about them,  34 then I will be glad to hear what he says.  All right.  35 Mr. Rush.  36  37 EXAMINATION IN CHIEF BY MR. RUSH (Cont'd):  38 Q   Mr. Sterritt, you indicated that in the winter of 1976  39 you had small meetings with hereditary chiefs during  40 which they describe the external boundary of the  41 Gitksan territory to you?  42 A   Yes.  43 Q   Is that right?  And I think you also indicated in your  44 evidence that there was a meeting in July of 1977 in  45 which there was a larger meeting where the external  46 boundary of the Gitksan territory was described to  47 you? 7233  N. Sterritt (for Plfs.)  In Chief by Mr. Rush 1 A   Yes.  By the hereditary chiefs?  Yes.  And then you said, I think, that there was a meeting  of the Wet'suwet'en chiefs in October or November of  1977 in which they defined for you the Wet'suwet'en  external boundary?  It would have been -- it wouldn't have been in  October.  It would have been in -- it wouldn't have  been in November.  It would have been in October.  Okay.  :  Of '70 --  '77?  Yes.  And as a result of that, you indicated that you drew  the map that was presented to the Honourable Hugh  Faulkner?  Yes.  On November 7, 1977?  Yes.  Yes.  Yes.  Thank you.  You didn't draw the map.  You  drew the boundary, the outline of the boundary on it,  is that right?  Yes.  I drew the outline.  And you have identified Exhibit 113 as that map.  I am  just showing that exhibit to you which is my copy.  You have already made reference to this in your  testimony.  Is that right?  Yes.  That's a copy of the map on which I drew the  boundary of the Gitksan and Wet'suwet'en territory,  the external boundary at that time.  Now, my lord, I'm going to pause at this juncture to  advise you that the plaintiffs have prepared a base  map and a series of overlays representing the maps  which have been referred to either by way of an  appendix to the statement of claim or by way of  evidence.  And we have produced in a scale of 1000 to  200 -- or 1 to 250,000 the map and the overlays.  And  the base is what you see on the easel to your left.  And I am going to refer Mr. Sterritt to the maps which  are exhibited and I'm going to ask that the overlays  which are a representation of those maps be placed on  the base map of which is on the easel.  The base map  that you see there and the overlays have been  photo-reduced into a size that can be slightly smaller  than the one that you have there on that easel.  And  2  Q  3  A  4  Q  5  6  7  8  A  9  1  10  11  Q  12  MR. GOLDIE  13  MR. RUSH:  14  Q  15  A  16  Q  17  18  19  A  20  Q  21  A  22  Q  23  i  24  25  A  26  Q  27  28  29  30  A  31  32  33  MR. RUSH:  34  35  ]  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47 7234  N. Sterritt (for Plfs.)  In Chief by Mr. Rush 1 essentially what  it is is to allow your lordship to  2 refer to a desk-sized version of the same map and  3 overlays that we will be referring to in the evidence.  4 So I'd like to embark upon this process now.  5 I am going to first hand up -- I am going to hand  6 up to you the desk-sized version of it.  And, my lord,  7 because of the type of material that's used there is  8 an antistatic divider between each of the sheets and  9 the most recent is on top and the oldest is on the  10 bottom.  The base that you have on that size is not  11 the same base that's here.  It's a base that has been  12 printed for us by Canadian Cartographies Ltd.  13 Now, I want to say at this juncture that the  14 reason that we have prepared these maps is to show the  15 progression of knowledge in the -- available to the  16 persons who are gathering information concerning the  17 hereditary chiefs' external boundaries and their  18 internal boundaries.  And the maps -- these are maps  19 that have been as I've said appended as a statement --  20 to the statement of claim on three occasions.  And in  21 some cases these are -- these were draft and working  22 maps that have been since exhibited in the trial.  The  23 first map that we begin with is the map that has just  24 been referred to Mr. Sterritt.  It's Exhibit 113.  25 Then I should advise you that we will prepare a final  26 map that will be the last of these overlays which will  27 show the external boundaries of the Gitksan and  28 Wet'suwet'en hereditary chiefs and as well their  29 internal boundaries based on the affidavit --  30 territorial affidavits which have been submitted in  31 part to your lordship.  All of the Gitksan have been  32 submitted and we intend to submit the balance of the  33 Wet'suwet'en as soon as we have completed them.  What  34 I --  35 MR. GOLDIE:  Excuse me.  Before my friend proceeds, we saw this  36 material for the first time today.  I have no  37 objection to your lordship using it on the same basis  38 as Mr. Macaulay's maps.  They may form some sort of --  39 some sort of convenience for you.  Of course I do not  40 accept for one minute that they show progression of  41 knowledge.  42 THE COURT:  All right.  43 MR. RUSH:  Well, maybe my friend will accept that when he's  44 heard more of the evidence.  I am telling --  45 MR. GOLDIE:  Highly unlikely.  46 MR. RUSH:  Your lordship will hear evidence regarding this fact  47 and the purpose of the overlays is to demonstrate that 7235  N. Sterritt (for Plfs.)  In Chief by Mr. Rush 1 very fact which  will appear in due course in the  2 evidence.  What I want to say, however, with regard to  3 the larger 1 to 250,000 overlay and as well the  4 smaller desk-sized copies is that we will be asking  5 them to be marked as exhibits in due course.  I can  6 advise your lordship of this, that my instructions are  7 that the information which is contained on the  8 overlays, the lines that are contained on the overlays  9 were transferred to the overlays from maps which had  10 been provided to the cartographer, Canadian  11 Cartographer Ltd.  The line on the overlays which you  12 will see was related I am instructed to a topographic  13 feature on the base map and the base map you see is  14 the base map that is on the easel.  And then the lines  15 were transferred section by section around the  16 geographic area of the territory.  Now, I can -- I am  17 also advised, my lord, that there were problems with  18 matching the base map, because two topographic series  19 were used in the preparation of the base map: a  20 Federal series where they were not adequate maps of  21 the same area, a Provincial series.  And I'm further  22 instructed that certain sections of the Federal series  23 were out of print and that is the reason for needing  24 to use two series.  And because of that, the two  25 series do not in between themselves conform absolutely  26 one to each other.  I am also advised that the base  27 map used for the exhibits, that is to say the maps  28 that you will hear evidence about which were prepared  29 by the cartographer, Mr. Marvin George, used a  30 different topographic series as well.  So we not only  31 have two series between the same map on the same base  32 map that's here in court, but a different series, one  33 map to the other.  Now -- so there is some lack of  34 conformity that exists there.  I am advised that Mr.  35 George used a Provincial series and in respect to this  36 map mainly a Federal series was used.  The consequence  37 of that is I am advised that the maps had to be  38 matched and the errors where there was not an absolute  39 matching were divided on a north/south basis.  It was  40 an attempt to centre the particular section.  41 Just in respect of the first of the overlays, the  42 first and second provide a, if you will, a special  43 circumstances in terms of transferring the information  44 that's contained on them.  There was in relation to  45 the map one that you will see, which is Exhibit 113, a  46 change in scale and that necessitated an enlargement  47 of the particular map and the boundary then had to be 7236  N. Sterritt (for Plfs.)  In Chief by Mr. Rush 1 traced, I'm  advised, by pencil upon the enlargement  2 having been made.  Secondly, with regard to the second  3 of the two maps, which was the map that was appended  4 to the statement of claim that was filed on October  5 23, 1984, that was a half-size map, that is half the  6 size of the one to 250,000 scale and that also had to  7 be enlarged and a tracing had to be made of that  8 boundary.  For the remaining maps which are of a  9 similar scale, but as I have already indicated with  10 the caution having been prepared on a different base,  11 the lines were copied onto a mylar, I am informed, and  12 the boundary was traced onto the mylar relative to the  13 topographical details on the base.  And that is the  14 means by which the representation of the lines which  15 you see on the overlays came to be.  And then as I've  16 indicated, once having created the overlays, the base  17 map and then the overlays on the one to 250,000 scale,  18 the desk-size map was photo-reduced in precisely the  19 same way; each overlay to the other, and then put on a  20 different base.  I just advise your lordship that the  21 base was a base that was separately prepared by  22 Canadian Cartographies.  So the base is not same base  23 as the one that's represented on the easel, but the  24 overlays are direct photo-reductions of the overlays.  25 MR. GOLDIE:  Well, if my friend would be good enough to put that  26 in the form of an affidavit, he would find that it's  27 very, very similar to what Mr. MacKinnon said with  28 respect to the alienation project maps which have been  2 9 in my friend's hands now for over a year.  And I take  30 it from his adoption of those procedures that he is  31 now quite happy with what was done with the Province's  32 alienation maps.  33 MR. RUSH:  I am neither happy with the process, nor do I  34 consider it to be similar.  It's not similar in any  35 way, manner or form.  36 MR. GOLDIE:  Well, then, perhaps —  37 MR. RUSH:  The information that was provided by Mr. MacKinnon  38 was obtained by other officials in the department.  39 MR. GOLDIE:  Excuse me.  40 MR. RUSH:  Well, excuse me.  41 MR. GOLDIE:  No.  Excuse me.  42 THE COURT:  Well, I am sorry, Mr. Goldie, I think Mr. — I think  43 Mr. Rush —  44 MR. GOLDIE:  Has the floor.  45 THE COURT:  Has the floor.  I think he does, yes.  46 MR. RUSH:  The point that I am trying to make here is that the  47 information that was taken by Canadian Cartographies 7237  N. Sterritt (for Plfs.)  In Chief by Mr. Rush 1 Ltd. was taken  from maps that are either part of the  2 court record or part -- or as exhibits in the  3 proceedings and were transferred as accurately as they  4 could be transferred.  It didn't require any  5 information to be given to Canadian Cartographies Ltd.  6 other than those maps and it's designed to show in a  7 representative way the course of changes in  8 progression of knowledge and as I will argue of the  9 lines of the maps which are now scattered throughout  10 the exhibits.  And in this way, my lord, we attempted  11 to bring them forward in a one, concise and unified  12 way.  And where they differ in my submission is that  13 Mr. MacKinnon and those people who attested affidavits  14 about whether or not the informational base was kept  15 in the usual and ordinary course of business was so  16 that those maps that were so-called part of the  17 alienation project defined by my learned friend were  18 created from files upon which your lordship had to be  19 sure.  And I say you cannot be sure from any of the  20 information that's been provided to you that such were  21 kept in the usual and ordinary course of business.  22 Now, as I have indicated, my lord, Mr. George, who  23 was the person who drew the maps that you will be  24 referring to, will be called as a witness.  And it is  25 for that reason that I seek to -- and I will ask that  26 you mark this overlay and really it's the court's copy  27 of the base and the overlay as an exhibit for  28 identification and I will ask that in the overlay  29 together with the -- I am sorry, the base together  30 with the eight overlays form that exhibit for  31 identification.  So on the basis that the evidence  32 about the creator of the maps will be called in order  33 to attest to the initial map and of course attest to  34 its comparison with the overlay.  35 MR. GOLDIE:  Well, my lord, I was referring to the technical  36 aspects of creating the base map, which I said was  37 precisely that followed by Mr. MacKinnon, if I  38 understood what my friend was saying.  I assume we  39 will be given something of the same courtesy when he  40 extended to my friend to consider what has been said  41 and to indicate whether we can agree with it.  But  42 apart -- until that happens I ask your lordship not to  43 mark any of this material.  44 MR. MACAULAY:  I propose to ask Mr. MacKinnon, who is actually  45 an officer of the Department of Public Works of  46 Canada, to comment whatever make -- whatever use of  47 the comments are necessary on Mr. Rush's statement and 723?  perhaps we can  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  on the maps and  We have just seen them this  THE COURT:  MR. RUSH:  N. Sterritt (for Plfs.)  In Chief by Mr. Rush 1  address the marking of  the maps after that,  morning.  All right.  Mr. Rush, was it your intention to have  the witness refer to these maps that are --  I will be asking the witness to refer to the map that  is either the exhibit or the map that's appended to  the statement of claim and at the same time I will be  introducing the overlay that relates to that  particular map and that for the first -- since I have  now referred the witness to Exhibit 113, I would like  now to simply place the overlay onto the map to show  in a representational form how that appears in  relation to the space.  Now, I am not -- I should  advise your lordship that I have no serious objection  to deferring the marking of this -- the map and the  overlays, and I also have no serious objection if it's  necessary to present an affidavit of the person who  did the work.  THE COURT:  All right.  Well, is there any difficulty with that,  Mr. Goldie?  MR. GOLDIE:  No, no.  lord.  All right,  if there is  That's precisely what I suggested, my  THE COURT:  Well, I am sure I will hear from counsel  a problem.  So at the moment it isn't  necessary to mark anything.  MR. RUSH:  No.  But I would appreciate it, my lord, if you would  reserve a number for this.  THE COURT:  Yes.  The number you want to reserve is for what,  for the large copy or my desk copy?  MR. RUSH:  Well, I think it should be a number reserved for  both.  THE COURT:  Yes.  All right.  Well, the next exhibit number,  Madam Registrar?  THE REGISTRAR:  646.  THE COURT:  646 will be -- how would you describe it?  Base map?  MR. RUSH:  Base map together with eight overlays representing  eight maps in the proceedings.  THE COURT:  Large base map and eight overlays.  THE REGISTRAR:  646 reserved.  MR. GOLDIE:  Perhaps the overlays could be given letters.  THE COURT:  Yes.  And they can be 646, one to eight.  MR. RUSH:  Thank you.  THE COURT:  All right.  And the desk-sized copy of 646 will be  number 647 reserved, and 647 -1 to -8.  All right.  Madam Registrar, it would be helpful if -- Madam  Registrar. 7239  N. Sterritt (for Plfs.)  In Chief by Mr. Rush 1    THE REGISTRAR:  Yes.  :  It would be helpful if at lunchtime another easel  could be obtained and I will put it beside Mr.  Macaulay's.  All right.  Mr. Goldie?  3:  Well, no.  Carry on.  :  All right.  Now, my lord, the first overlay map, one is the  territories of the Gitksan and Carrier Indians  presentation to the Government of Canada, the  Honourable Hugh Faulkner, Minister of Human Affairs,  Kispiox, B.C. November 7, 1977.  :  And that's exhibit number?  TRAR:  646.  Excuse me.  That's Exhibit 113.  :  113.  All right.  All right.  My lord, I am going to be dealing with  the series of maps, some of which are -- some of which  are part of the progression of the maps that I am  showing you that have been presented by way of this  overlay and some of which have not been.  And I am  going to ask Mr. Sterritt to refer to Exhibit 107.  And it's a small coloured map called the Gitksan  Wet'suwet'en Territorial Territories.  :  That's the map of the clans, is it not?  Yes.  :  Yes.  The coloured --  :  Yes.  -- map showing certain of the clans, yes.  Have you seen that before, Mr. Sterritt?  Yes, I have.  Do you know who prepared this?  It's a map that I asked Marvin George to prepare.  Do you know when that was?  It was early on after he came to work for us within, I  believe, about a year of when he came to work for us.  He came to work for us in the fall of 1983.  It was shortly after he came to work for you?  Yes.  All right.  And what was the -- was the map prepared  on this size and in this scale?  Yes.  And can you advise what was the purpose for the  preparation of this map?  It was schematic.  It was to demonstrate a  relationship between the various clans.  It wasn't  necessarily accurate.  2  THE  COURT  3  4  5  MR.  GOLDI  6  THE  COURT  7  MR.  RUSH:  8  9  10  11  12  THE  COURT  13  THE  REGIS1  14  MR.  RUSH:  15  THE  COURT  16  MR.  RUSH:  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  THE  COURT  25  MR.  RUSH:  26  THE  COURT  27  MR.  RUSH:  28  THE  COURT  29  MR.  RUSH:  30  Q  31  A  32  Q  33  A  34  Q  35  A  36  37  38  Q  39  A  40  Q  41  42  A  43  Q  44  45  A  46  47 7240  N. Sterritt (for Plfs.)  In Chief by Mr. Rush 1 Q   And can you --  what is the scale to that?  Are you  able to say?  One to one million.  And did you use this map in any specific way?  Yes.  It was used for educational purposes in schools  in the area and for presentations outside of the area  to help to show non-native people that there was a  Gitksan and Wet'suwet'en house system and that it  existed throughout Gitksan and Wet'suwet'en  territories.  And can you tell me what other groups was this map  presented to?  Service groups, clubs, people who asked me or other  members of the Tribal Council to come and do  presentations.  Now, does that -- I am just -- if you will just look  at that map.  Does that contain the Kitwancool  territories?  Yes, it does.  Are you able to say why?  Because the Kitwancool are Gitksan and we wanted to  show all of the territories.  And when you say that this was a schematic drawing or  a schematic map, what do you mean?  Simply that it was -- well, I am going to have to  define schematic.  But I mean --  Yes.  What did you mean by schematic, that's what I am  saying?  To show the inter-relationship through the colours of  the territories and to give the impression of  different house territories through the colours.  And are the house territories represented by the  colours?  Yes, they are.  Different colours are used to  represent different houses or clan -- or not houses  but clans.  All right.  That's -- it makes reference to clans  there?  Yes.  Is the representation of colour to clan or to house?  To house.  Pardon me.  To clan.  Yes.  All right.  Thank you.  Now, Mr. Sterritt, after the  presentation to the Honourable Hugh Faulkner that was  made in Kispiox on November 7, 1977, you've indicated  that you undertook a number of field trips in I think  the  scale  to that  2  3  A  4  Q  5  A  6  7  8  1  9  10  11  Q  12  13  A  14  ]  15  16  Q  17  18  19  A  20  Q  21  A  22  23  Q  24  25  A  26  1  27  Q  28  29  A  30  31  1  32  Q  33  34  A  35  36  37  Q  38  39  A  40  Q  41  A  42  MR.  GOLDIE  43  MR.  RUSH:  44  Q  45  46  ]  47 7241  N. Sterritt (for Plfs.)  In Chief by Mr. Rush 1              it was '79 and '80  and then again in '83 and '85 and  2 '86 and '87.  Now, I'm interested in your -- now in  3 the time frame after 1977, that is to say 1978 and  4 time after that.  How did you record the information  5 gathered from the hereditary chiefs about place names  6 and places that you were involved in in that process  7 of field trips and other information gathering?  8 A  When I first began I had a looseleaf scribbler that I  9 entered some information in.  I also -- it was  10 part-time.  It was very informal.  I also if talking  11 to a hereditary chief recorded it on any loose piece  12 of paper that might be around, small notepad that I  13 might -- that might be available or cigarette box or  14 napkin.  And then I also entered information into a  15 journal that I was keeping.  It wasn't just  16 territorial information, it was other information.  17 Then I moved from that -- or while I was doing that I  18 developed a topographic survey form, I called it, on  19 which I transferred individual place names, geographic  20 features.  And on that form I tried to incorporate  21 whatever other detail would go along with that  22 feature.  I moved from informally keeping notes to a  23 field book system in 1979, and began to keep my field  24 notes in a field book, which I also transferred to  25 these topographic data forms.  26 Q   You didn't transfer the whole of the field book to the  27 topographic data forms, did you?  28 A   No.  Simply —  29 Q   What information did you take from the field book and  30 put on the topographic data forms?  31 A   Place names, Gitksan place names for mountains,  32 creeks, lakes; place names around a particular Gitksan  33 village.  And also if there was an indication of who  34 the hereditary chief was or if that wasn't available,  35 of who the house was or the clan or the village, I  36 recorded that on the topographic form.  37 Q   Now, what did you do with the information that you  38 recorded on the topographic forms or prior to the  39 topographic form being used by you in 1979,  40 information that you gathered before that time?  41 A  Well, I also located some of the features or many of  42 the features on a map, a 1 to 250,000 map, very much  43 like the different maps that are on here.  I had a set  44 of them, about six of them.  And I would locate as  45 best I could place names on those maps.  4 6 Q   All right.  47    MR. GOLDIE:  Have those been produced? 7242  N. Sterritt (for Plfs.)  In Chief by Mr. Rush 1    MR. RUSH:  Yes.  2 MR. GOLDIE:  What numbers?  3 MR. RUSH:  What numbers?  I don't know what their numbers are.  4 MR. GOLDIE:  Six maps produced by him?  5 MR. RUSH:  I think so.  6 MR. GOLDIE:  I don't think so.  7 MR. RUSH:  I don't know how many of them are produced at this  8 point.  I presume six were produced.  9 MR. GOLDIE:  I have none disclosed so far.  Not to my knowledge.  10 Carry on.  11 MR. RUSH:  12 Q   Now, Mr. Sterritt, what did you do with these maps?  13 A   The information, as I accumulated it I would place it  14 on the map as closely as I could to a feature.  I also  15 attempted to indicate with the coloured pencil where  16 the -- or who the feature, what house or clan the  17 feature was belonged to and I evolved, I moved along  18 from that point to the point where I -- because there  19 just wasn't enough space on one map, I assigned a  2 0 number to a feature and put that on the map and that  21 number related to the topographic form, but the  22 topographic form, the individual entries were becoming  23 too difficult to keep up with and I developed a data  24 summary form with a running sequence of numbers and  25 those went onto the -- were put onto the map.  26 Q   All right.  Just before we go to the summary forms, I  27 understand that on the topographic survey form there  28 was a number that related to a feature and that number  29 then was transferred to the place of the feature on  3 0 the map?  31 A   The number was regularized, you could say, when I  32 developed the summary form.  I did use a number to a  33 limited extent on the topographic data form, but it --  34 when I moved to the summary form, then I did it with  35 much more regularity.  36 Q   Okay.  The maps that you have referred to, were you  37 the only person that entered numbers on these maps?  38 A   No.  When Marvin George was employed, I turned these  39 six maps and the summary forms over to him and as I  40 acquired further information I would pass that along  41 to Marvin and he kept up the numbering system.  42 Q   Now, was every number -- so far as the ones that you  43 entered on the map, was every number that was placed  44 on the map related to a topographic survey form or a  4 5 summary form?  46 A   Certainly to every summary -- there was a number on  47 the summary form.  In terms of the data sheets, the 7243  N. Sterritt (for Plfs.)  In Chief by Mr. Rush 1              topographic survey  form, there wasn't necessarily a  2 number that related to what was on the map.  There was  3 a feature that ended up appearing on the summary form,  4 but I can't say that every number appeared there.  5 It -- with all my -- as president and engaged in other  6 activities, I didn't -- the best thing for me at that  7 time was to use the summary form.  Was the easiest way  8 that I could work it.  9 Q   Now, in terms of the number that was placed on the map  10 on the summary form or on the topographic survey form,  11 did that describe a type of feature?  12 A   Yes.  It was to indicate whether it was a creek, lake,  13 mountain or other unique geographical feature.  14 Q   And where was it that the number was placed on the  15 map?  16 A  As close as I could locate it to the feature that was  17 being identified to me by a hereditary chief.  I  18 might -- hereditary chiefs were talking to me all the  19 time.  I might run into them on the street and they  20 would identify a feature; I would write it down and go  21 back and try and locate it.  Or, if convenient, I  22 would bring the hereditary chief to my office and  23 bring out this map and try and locate it as closely as  24 I could.  Or if I had conducted an actual field trip  25 and had identified the feature, then I would locate  2 6 that on the map as well.  27 Q   Were the numbers kept in any sequence?  28 A  Well, they were numerical in increasing order from --  29 I had a separate set of numbers for each national  30 topographic series map.  The Hazelton map at a 1 to  31 250,000 scale is map 93M.  So I had summary forms  32 running from one on up to three, four hundred for the  33 Hazelton sheet.  Then on the Bowser sheet I would have  34 a similar set of numbers running from one on up.  And  35 the distinction between the two was the designation  36 under the national topographical system 93M, 103P.  37 Whatever was the designation.  And that's how I could  38 distinguish between them.  39 Q   Now, apart from yourself and Mr. George, was there  40 anyone else who provided topographical feature data  41 for mapping?  42 A   Yes.  Alfred Joseph.  43 Q   And to your knowledge was -- did he employ a similar  44 method as you?  45 A   Yes, he did.  46 Q   What particular topographic features was he concerned  47 with? 7244  N. Sterritt (for Plfs.)  In Chief by Mr. Rush 1          A   The same features  that I was concerned with: creeks,  2 lakes, mountains, villages.  3 Q   In the same areas?  4 A   In the Wet'suwet'en territories.  5 Q   All right.  Did Mr. Joseph contribute any numbers or  6 information with respect to areas that you were  7 concerned with?  8 A   On the Gitksan territories there was one place name  9 that I recall.  Apart from that he dealt exclusively  10 with the Wet'suwet'en territories.  11 Q   Now, what were the situations or occasions in which  12 you received this information that you've recorded on  13 the topographic summary sheets or on the topographic  14 data sheets.  15 MR. GOLDIE:  And maps.  16 A   Generally informal, because I was a full-time  17 president.  I -- when I attended Feasts --  18 MR. RUSH:  19 Q   All right.  Just if you pause there.  When you say you  20 attend Feasts, what would happen at a Feast?  21 A  Well, I always brought my field book to a Feast.  A  22 hereditary chief during an appropriate time or  23 convenient time during the Feast would come and sit  24 down with me and indicate to me place names within his  25 territory.  2 6 Q   Can you give me one example of that?  27 A  Albert Tait, Delgamuukw, who sat at a different table  28 during a lull in the Feast, came and sat with me.  And  29 he indicated some place names.  Pete Muldoe, who sat  30 opposite me, Gitludahl, he -- a lot of the initial  31 information that he provided to me was provided in the  32 Feast because we sat together.  And then if he wanted  33 to -- if he felt there was other information that  34 would be useful, he might go and sit with that person  35 for a few minutes and then come back and talk to me.  36 Wii muglusxw, George Wilson, is an individual who did  37 that with me.  There were others.  It was --  38 Q   So your attendance at Feasts was an occasion which you  39 obtained information from hereditary chiefs which you  40 recorded in the system you've described?  41 A   Yes, it was.  42 Q   At those Feasts that you attended, was there a public  43 description or an oral description given during the  44 course of the Feast itself where you were able to  45 obtain information about place names or territories?  46 A   Yes, there was.  The host clan and house during the  47 Feast, depending on the nature of the Feast, would 7245  N. Sterritt (for Plfs.)  In Chief by Mr. Rush 1              tell their -- give  their territories and they would do  2 that in a more generalized way.  And I was able to get  3 some information in that way.  Sometimes they were  4 more specific than others, but there was a kind of  5 a -- the hereditary chiefs had a way of presenting the  6 information that those who were present understood the  7 territory they were talking about and the place names  8 and had a background about the boundaries.  9 Q   What other occasions were there in which you obtained  10 information from hereditary chiefs of the kind you've  11 described and recorded it in the way that you've  12 indicated?  13 A   I made a point in my spare time of trying to meet with  14 hereditary chiefs.  Sometimes on a Saturday or in an  15 evening I would meet with them and sit down and  16 informally they would give me information.  I didn't  17 necessarily have a map with me at the time or I may  18 have had a map with me at the time.  Not always.  I  19 didn't have a map when I received the information in  20 the Feast.  But sometimes they would seek me out, come  21 to my office and ask to talk to me and provide  22 information.  23 Q   What would be an example of that?  24 A   The one example is George Milton, Haak asxw.  25 Q   Haak asxw?  26 A   Yes.  From Kitsegulka.  27 Q   You say George was.  Has he passed on?  28 A   He passed away.  He sought me out and came to see me  29 and told me about the place names that he was  30 concerned about and about his territories.  31 Q   Haak asxw.  32 THE REGISTRAR:  Number 26 on the plaintiffs' list.  33 MR. RUSH:  34 Q   Now, Mr. Sterritt, were there occasions on which you  35 were travelling within the territories in which  36 information was conveyed to you by hereditary chiefs?  37 A   Yes, there was.  38 Q   All right.  What -- if you can just say generally what  39 was the type of occasion in which you obtained that  40 kind of information?  41 A  Well, it varied.  But a meeting might be scheduled for  42 or would be scheduled for, say, Kitwanga.  And a  43 hereditary chief would need a ride and he would come  44 along with me.  And on the way if he was knowledgeable  45 of a feature or a number of features on the road to  46 Kitwanga, then he would inform me about those  47 features. 7246  N. Sterritt (for Plfs.)  In Chief by Mr. Rush 1 Q   What would be an  example of that?  2 A  Well, Eli Turner, Wii Yagaa deets' , from the house of  3 Hax bagwootxw.  4 Q   You have given those names before?  5 A   Yes.  He travelled with me and he did that.  Gwis  6 Gyen, Stanley Williams; Henry Wright, Haspaiyets, in  7 the house of Wii gaak.  8 Q   Now, prior to -- I am sorry, before I go to that, were  9 there any other occasions that you haven't told us  10 about which would be the kind of occasion which  11 hereditary chiefs would convey information about the  12 place names or territories which you described as  13 recording in the way that you have?  14 A  Well, I viewed these situations as informal.  But I  15 could be in the middle of -- or in a Tribal Council  16 meeting and a hereditary chief during a coffee break  17 would come and talk to me.  But there were also the  18 other situations where I set out to meet with a  19 hereditary chief or a couple and go somewhere, go to a  20 place that we could drive to and to get information.  21 And I referred to that already in terms of Stanley  22 Williams earlier in the week, where we went out and  23 did that.  24 Q   All right.  25 A   I also in 1979 on a long weekend I went to Gisgagas  2 6 and Henry Wright wanted to go and we went and we did  27 field work there.  28 Q   Okay.  29 A   It was during part of the weekend.  30 Q   So that would be in the context of one of the field  31 trips that you described, is that right?  32 A   Yes.  33 Q   All right.  Now, the information that you had  34 collected in the summary data sheets or the  35 topographic data sheets and placed on maps, what did  36 you do with that information?  37 A   Basically it was an information-gathering time for me.  38 When Marvin George was hired, I turned that  39 information over to him.  And apart from the entries  4 0 that I made on my own maps, I turned over the data  41 sheets, the summary sheets, my field books, if it was  42 necessary, or if Marvin requested them, as well as the  43 six maps that contained whatever information I had put  4 4 on the map.  45 Q   Okay.  Now, a map was appended to the statement of  46 claim in October 23, 1984 and I am wondering if you  47 can tell the court when it was that you handed over 7247  N. Sterritt (for Plfs.)  In Chief by Mr. Rush 1              the information  that you have just described in  2 relation to that date?  3 A   It's very soon after Marvin George came to work for  4 the Tribal Council.  It was either in the fall of '83  5 or very soon into 1984.  6 Q   All right.  Now, between the time that you handed over  7 the information to Marvin George and the time of the  8 filing of the statement of claim in October of 1984,  9 did you have occasion to gather further information  10 from hereditary chiefs informally or on a field trip  11 or in some other way as you have described?  12 A   Yes, I did.  13 Q   And what would you do with the information that you  14 gathered in those six?  15 A   I passed it along to Marvin George.  16 Q   Okay.  Was all of the information passed on by way of  17 a written form?  18 A   In the form that I had it, I would hand him my field  19 book and he would work with it and hand it back to me.  20 He would enter it into the summary sheets and onto a  21 map.  If I could assist with locating the feature, I  22 did, but the feature at that point was being located  23 not necessarily precisely, because I might have been  24 told the name of the feature and where it was and  25 tried to draw a sketch to determine the hereditary  26 chief might have agreed with me and said it's near  27 there and then I tried to get an approximation of  28 where that feature was.  29 Q   All right.  Did you -- was there ever an occasion in  30 which you communicated orally with Marvin George about  31 a feature or a place?  32 A   Yes, there was.  But generally I would follow-up with  33 any -- anything that I had written down.  But there  34 were times when I might learn more about a feature and  35 I would call Marvin and let him know that and Marvin  36 and I had a dialogue like that.  He was -- he was  37 working with the information.  I was in and out, as I  38 mentioned, because I was quite busy with other duties.  39 Q   Was -- were your main information-gathering tasks  40 related to the Gitksan hereditary chiefs' territories?  41 A   Yes, they were.  42 THE COURT:  Mr. Rush, can we an adjourn?  4 3    MR. RUSH:  Yes.  44 MR. GOLDIE:  Before we adjourn, I wonder if my friend would have  45 available for me to see today the six maps to which  46 reference has been made; Hazelton map is No. 93M and  47 so on and so forth.  From the description, they are 7248  N. Sterritt (for Plfs.)  In Chief by Mr. Rush 1 not ones that we  Le I would  like to see them today.  :  Would you look into that please, Mr. Rush?  Yes.  :  All right.  2 o'clock, thank you.  (PROCEEDINGS ADJOURNED PURSUANT TO LUNCHEON  ADJOURNMENT)  I hereby certify the foregoing to be  a true and accurate transcript of the  proceedings herein to the best of my  skill and ability.  Laara Yardley,  Official Reporter,  United Reporting Service Ltd.  ave  seen, and if possib  2  3    THE COURT  4    MR. RUSH:  5    THE COURT  6  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47 7249  N.J. Sterritt (for Plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Rush 1 (PROCEEDINGS  RECONVENED AT 2:00 p.m.)  2  3 THE REGISTRAR:  Order in court.  Calling Delgamuukw versus Her  4 Majesty the Queen at bar, My Lord.  5 THE COURT:  Mr. Rush.  6 MR. RUSH:  7 Q   Thank you, My Lord.  8 Mr. Sterrit, was a map prepared and appended to  9 the Statement of Claim that was filed in October of  10 1984?  11 A   Yes, there was.  12 Q   And was information that you had gathered and passed  13 onto Marvin George, to your knowledge, used in part  14 for the preparation of that map?  15 A   Yes.  16 Q   And the map that was prepared at that time, was it  17 based on a particular description of the Gitksan and  18 Wet'suwet'en territories?  19 A   It was based on a metes and bounds description?  20 Q   And that metes and bounds description was appended to  21 the Statement of Claim as well?  22 A   Yes, it was.  23 Q   And who did the metes and bounds?  24 A  Marvin George.  25 Q   And in terms of the information that was passed along  26 to Marvin George for the preparation of the metes and  27 bounds and the map, to your knowledge, was Glen  28 Williams and Alfred Joseph two other people who had  29 provided Mr. George with information concerning the  30 boundary of the Gitksan and Wet'suwet'en territories  31 at that time?  32 A   Yes, they were.  33 Q   All right.  Now, I just like to show you the map.  34 Now, Mr. Sterrit, I want to show you a map and  35 ask you if you can recognize this as a map of the  36 Gitksan and Wet'suwet'en territories that was appended  37 to the Statement of Claim in October of 1984?  38 A   Yes, this is a copy of the map.  39 MR. GOLDIE:  My recollection is that the signature to which you  4 0 referred was not on the map appended.  41 MR. RUSH:  No, no.  Now, My Lord, on this map there are some  42 numbers and a signature on the map not present at the  43 time this map was prepared.  They were placed on by me  44 or in my presence with the map maker, and it contains  45 the signature of a Mr. Lou Skoda, he is from Canadian  46 Cartographies Ltd., in June of 1988.  47 THE COURT:  What is that document, Mr. Rush, a copy of the map 7250  that's attached to  the Statement  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  MR. RUSH:  THE COURT:  MR. RUSH:  THE COURT:  N.J. Sterritt (for Plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Rush 1  of Claim?  MR. RUSH:  Of 1984, October 23, 1984, and I'm going to be asking  that that be marked as an exhibit for identification.  MR. GOLDIE:  I wonder, My Lord, if we ought not to mark as the  exhibit what is actually appended to the Statement of  Claim.  I am happy to do that.  All right.  I didn't feel that Your Lordship wanted to have a  court document marked, but I am also quite happy to do  that.  Well, if it's going to form part of the narrative of  the evidence, maybe it's a useful thing to do.  MR. GOLDIE:  What I'm concerned about is whatever is before the  witness or before Your Lordship is not what it  purports to be, the map attached to the Statement of  Claim.  If anything turns on it -- and something does  because the Statement of Claim says that the territory  within the map appended as Schedule B is the territory  claimed.  THE COURT:  Um-hmm.  MR. GOLDIE:  Then I think it ought to be very clear that what is  now before the witness is not what is claimed in the  Statement of Claim.  If this is to be marked, my  suggestion is that it be marked as a copy of the  exhibit.  THE COURT:  Yes.  MR. GOLDIE:  Not the exhibit itself.  MR. RUSH:  My Lord, I would ask that the exhibit in the trial  book be produced, and if, presumably, we don't have it  available immediately --  THE COURT:  I don't think we do.  MR. RUSH:  I would ask that it be produced.  THE COURT:  All right.  We'll make that the next number.  That  would be?  THE REGISTRAR:  Number 648.  (EXHIBIT 648 - Map attached to Statement of Claim,  "Schedule B" dd. October 23, 1984)  THE COURT:  All right.  And now you are producing a copy of  that, are you, Mr. Rush?  MR. RUSH:  Yes.  I'll produce a copy of that.  THE COURT:  648 with notations?  MR. RUSH:  Yes.  There are two notations, there is  number mark and zero in black and that's  a number -- a  stroked out,  and then it's number one in orange, and then in the 725  corner there  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  bottom right-hand  is in the trial book  1  N.J. Sterritt (for Plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Rush 1  is a circle Map 2 L.  Skoda June/'88.  THE COURT:  All right.  That will be 64 9.  THE REGISTRAR:  649 will be the copy.  648  and that was March?  MR. RUSH:  Yes.  THE COURT:  We are just reserving that number.  MR. RUSH:  October the 23rd, 1984.  THE REGISTRAR:  Thank you.  MR. MACAULAY:  We are marking the actual pleading then, are we,  the attachment to the pleading?  THE COURT:  Yes, we are.  649 is a copy of it with those  notations.  THE REGISTRAR:  The pleading or just the map?  THE COURT:  Just the map.  MR. GOLDIE:  That's — it's paragraph 56 of the Statement of  Claim is what I have reference to, and it reads and I  quote:  "The plaintiffs have owned and exercised  jurisdiction over the lands described in Schedule  A and set out in the map attached as Schedule B  hereinafter referred to as the territory."  And it is what is referred to as Schedule B in  paragraph 56 of the Statement of Claim that I submit  should be marked as the exhibit.  THE COURT:  Schedule B will be Exhibit 648.  THE REGISTRAR:  And the copy 649.  THE COURT:  Yes.  (EXHIBIT 649  Notations)  Copy of Map, Exhibit No. 648, with  MR. RUSH:  MR. GRANT  THE COURT  MR. RUSH:  THE COURT  MR. RUSH:  Q  I'm going to ask Mr. Grant to assist me in putting up  the next overlay.  I was going to wait until tomorrow at noon, My Lord.  Now the first overlay is?  The November 7th, 1977 map.  Oh, I see.  All right.  Now the overlay has been placed on the base map.  Mr.  Sterrit, I wonder if you would just step off the  witness stand and go over and have a look at the  overlay, please.  Now, I would ask you first if you see a  difference between the -- on the western side of the 7252  N.J. Sterritt (for Plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Rush  Submissions by counsel  1  2  3  4  5  A  6  7  8  9  Q  10  11  12  A  13  Q  14  15  16  17  18  A  19  20  MR.  GOLDIE  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  THE  COURT:  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  MR.  GOLDIE  35  THE  COURT:  36  MR.  GOLDIE  37  THE  COURT:  38  MR.  GOLDIE  39  40  41  42  43  THE  COURT:  44  45  46  47  MR.  GOLDIE  territory there is a portion of the territory that's  included within the thick black line in the map number  one, and not included within the territory of map  number two.  What is that area, if you know?  That indicates the exclusion of the Kitwancool  territories from the map that had been drawn on  November -- or submitted to the Honourable Hugh  Faulkner on November the 7th, 1977.  Okay.  And the area that you pointed to, that area  that was not included, do you mean to say it was not  included in the 1984 map?  That's right.  All right.  Now, I wonder if you would look to the top  portion of the second overlay, map number two, and  there is an area that comes down into the northern  part of the territory.  What portion of the territory  is that?  That's a portion of the territory at the head of the  Skeena River, and the exclusion represents --  :  Well, excuse me.  I have an objection.  On what  basis can Mr. Sterritt inform Your Lordship on the  exclusion?  (A) He didn't draw the map; (B) whatever  information he had he gave to the cartographer; (C) if  he is now going to tell Your Lordship why it was --  what it is and why it was excluded, it's pure  unadulterated hearsay.  Well, I'll hear you in a moment, Mr. Rush.  I'm not  sure, Mr. Goldie.  Mr. Sterritt is a -- not qualified  as an expert but he is obviously a knowledgeable  person with respect to the territory and with maps.  He is also a former president of the tribal council  and he is -- he is a hereditary chief, as I understand  it.  :  Well, he --  Plaintiff.  :  He may be all of those things.  Yes.  :  But he hasn't relied upon any of them in the  evidence that he has given with respect to territory.  Every -- unless I'm mistaken, every piece of evidence  that he has given with respect to territory is that  which has been given to him by somebody else.  Oh, I have no doubt that that is so.  But what he  is -- what he is doing now is describing what changes  have been made to the various maps that have been  produced.  :  That's quite right. 7253  N.J. Sterritt (for Plaintiffs)  Submissions by counsel 1    THE COURT:  You say Mr.  George is the only person that could do  2 that?  3 MR. GOLDIE:  So far as I'm aware at the present time.  The  4 witness has stated that "I turn my information over to  5 Mr. George, the information that I got from the  6 chiefs."  7 THE COURT:  Yes.  8 MR. GOLDIE:  And Mr. George has transcribed them onto a map.  9 Now, I didn't realize until a few minutes ago that the  10 map which is appended to the Statement of Claim of  11 1984 was drawn by somebody else.  But with great  12 respect, Mr. Sterritt at the present time is simply  13 acting as a conduit of information he got from others.  14 THE COURT:  Well, is it different from the classic case that  15 says you don't have to be an expert to describe what's  16 shown in a photograph if you are a person  17 knowledgeable in connection with the subject matter of  18 the photograph?  19 MR. GOLDIE:  My objection to him is not that he is using  20 knowledge or skills that he has acquired, my objection  21 is that he is simply telling Your Lordship what others  22 have done.  23 THE COURT:  Well I think what he is telling me is that that area  24 at the top of the second overlay is -- represents an  25 area at the head of the Skeena River.  Why it's  26 excluded and whether it's rightly excluded or whether  27 it should be there at all is -- seems to me to be a  28 different matter.  29 MR. GOLDIE:  Well, if the reason for the exclusion or -- setting  30 aside for the moment the question of reason, if all  31 that the witness is going to do is to say that that  32 excludes an area at the head of the Skeena River, I  33 have no objection to that.  It's a matter that Your  34 Lordship can see, you are looking at the map, but it  35 may be of some assistance.  Conversely, if he says,  36 "Over on the right-hand side property or territory or  37 lands, which exclude Bowser or Bear Lake," if that  38 was -- if there is a geographical description which is  39 obvious from the map and which is a compendious way of  40 summing it up, I have no objection to that.  But if he  41 says, "We excluded that territory because A hadn't  42 paid his dues," or something of that order, that's a  43 different proposition.  That's -- the only person who  44 can tell us that is the person who drew that line and  45 presumably, acting upon information from hereditary  46 chiefs, did as he was told.  But Mr. Sterritt simply  47 passed information on, he didn't originate 7254  N.J. Sterritt (for Plaintiffs)  Submissions by counsel  Ruling by the Court  1 information.  2 THE COURT:  Well, I'm — I'm not influenced by the fact that I  3 read this morning the report of the English equivalent  4 of the Justice Reform Committee that just reported in  5 England where they have recommended -- well, they  6 haven't recommended abolishing the hearsay rule, but  7 they recommended a Royal Commission be set up to  8 determine whether the hearsay rule should be  9 abolished, I'm not influenced by that.  What I believe  10 the witness is competent to do is to describe to me  11 what salient features there are on this map which will  12 assist me to read it properly.  I would be grateful,  13 for example, if I was told that that was land claimed  14 that he is now describing as the headwaters of the  15 Skeena, and there may be history to that that he even  16 has knowledge of that he can give.  I'm not at that  17 stage yet.  I think his evidence in this regard is  18 explanatory and informative and subject to all the  19 infirmities that you have described and it may not  2 0 prove anything.  21 MR. GOLDIE:  I would like to, if I may, and with the greatest  22 respect, My Lord, remind Your Lordship and my friends  23 that it was I who advocated a rule of inadmissibility  24 in this case that admitted anything which appeared to  25 be authentic and the sole question would be weight.  26 I'm working with what we have been working with so  27 far.  2 8 THE COURT:  Yes.  29 MR. GOLDIE:  And I have in mind specifically the ruling you made  30 with respect to Mr. Alfred Joseph, but I -- I made my  31 point.  32 THE COURT:  Yes.  33 MR. GOLDIE:  And if Your Lordship wishes to hear from Mr.  34 Sterritt I'll deal with it in cross-examination.  35 THE COURT:  Yes.  I'm going to allow him to give the evidence.  36 I am not sure that it proves anything, but I haven't  37 heard the evidence yet and it may be that there is no  38 more than -- or give me an orientation for the map.  39 It may go further than that or it may go no further  40 than that.  41 Sorry, I haven't heard from you, Mr. Macaulay.  42 MR. MACAULAY:  My Lord, it seems to me that as president or  43 former president of the tribal council, this witness  44 can give in a general way an explanation of the map  45 that forms part of the pleadings.  His action is clear  46 now that the tribal council is the organization which  47 really the chiefs used to prosecute the claim. 7255  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  N.J. Sterritt (for Plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Rush 1    THE COURT:  Yes.  MR. MACAULAY:  And on that footing, it's like asking "How high  is up," in a way. There is certain evidence, perhaps,  he shouldn't give, but I'm certain he ought to be in a  position to say, "We excluded that because."  THE COURT:  Yes.  I'm going to allow that.  Go ahead, Mr. Rush.  MR. RUSH:  Q   I wonder if you could step down from the witness box  again, Mr. Sterritt.  I direct you to that portion of  the territory in the northern section of the second  overlay.  Can you tell His Lordship where that is  geographically, please?  A   The boundary or the line on the right-hand side  follows the -- over top of the Skeena River to the  headwaters of the Skeena, and the line on the  left-hand side is to the west of the Skeena River.  Q   All right.  Now, although there is the wide grey line  at the top, I take it that on the second overlay, that  doesn't join at the top; is that right?  A   It does not join, that's right.  Q   Okay.  Now, is that area an area that is claimed or  was claimed at the time by a hereditary chief?  A   Yes.  MR. GOLDIE:  I -- surely, my friend could get to the point  without asking an objectionable question like that.  THE COURT:  Your point, Mr. Goldie, is that it's leading?  MR. GOLDIE:  Yes.  What is -- for what reason is that area  excluded, that's the simple question that I understood  Your Lordship to allow.  THE COURT:  Well, I went so far -- I went further and said he  could give a history of that if there was one that he  knew about, he could give a history of it, of why this  line is drawn the way it is.  The question, however,  was leading.  MR.  RUSH:  Q  A  Q  A  Q  Mr. Sterritt, were you involved in the -- prior to the  commencement of the action, in gathering of chiefs'  authorizations for the commencement of the action?  Yes, I was.  And in respect of that particular territory or that  particular land area, had there been, to your  knowledge, at the time that the court case commenced,  an authorization for that area obtained by you or by  other members of the tribal council?  No, there was not.  All right.  Was authorization in respect of that area  subsequently obtained? 7256  N.J. Sterritt (for Plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Rush 1 A   Yes, there was.  Okay.  Now, I'll deal with that in a moment, Mr.  Sterritt, in respect of the next overlay I'll ask you  to refer to.  Mr. Sterritt, if you look on the west --  excuse me, the east side of the territory that's shown  on the map, you'll see there is an area -- a  difference between the map number one and map number  two.  What area is that, if you can describe them?  Well, the -- the fine black line?  :  Well, is that the one you are talking about, Mr.  Rush?  Yes, My Lord.  :  What about the one up in the north?  All right, we'll go to that one first.  I wanted to  pick the big ones.  There is one at the top, do you  see that, on the north-east corner of the map?  Yes.  What area is that?  That's -- that area is to the east of Duti River, Mika  Dee aa, and Stalk Lake is a lake that is right in the  centre of that, that's S-t-a-1-k, on the map.  The map  that was drawn in 1977 was at a scale of 1:600,000,  and the features on that map were difficult to  identify.  When I drew the line on the scale of  1:600,000, I used an ordinary felt marker, a black  felt marking pen, and as I went around it was  difficult to determine where the height of land was in  that area, and so that represented an effort to find  the height of land.  But when the -- when the overlay  of the 1977 map was expanded to match the base  underneath here, it included -- it showed that the  line that we drew in 1977 went out there, it was  not -- the reduction in that area had nothing to do  with territory that belonged to Gitksan hereditary  chiefs.  All right.  The enlargement of the 1977 felt pen line,  that enlargement is depicted on that overlay, is it?  In fact, that's -- yes.  This represents the expanded  thickness of the line that was on the November 7th,  1977 map, expanded.  That would be the thickness of  the felt pen if you reduced it back down to 1:600,000.  It covers approximately two and a half miles on that  map.  I see, all right.  Now, the next that's shown in the  east side of the map, do you see that?  Yes, I can.  2  Q  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  A  10  THE COURT  11  12  MR. RUSH:  13  THE COURT  14  MR. RUSH:  15  Q  16  17  18  A  19  Q  20  A  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  Q  38  39  A  40  41  42  43  44  45  Q  46  47  A area is that?  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  7257  N.J. Sterritt (for Plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Rush 1 Q   All right.  What  A   That is in the vicinity of Bear Lake.  It -- the black  line goes east to include Xsan togasxw, Driftwood  River, and up to the height of land and behind Bas  Choo, the Connelly Range.  It is one of the  territories of Nii Kyap and it's part of the -- we  landed right in this area on the overflight on the  Connelly range.  Q   What's that area that you are showing on the overlay,  what's the name of that area?  A   It's near Bear Lake, it's on Bas Choo.  Q   Bas Choo, is that B-a-s C-h-o?  A   C-h-o-o.  Q   All right.  Now, there -- if you will proceed down the  east side, south of the portion you've just been  referring to, there is a difference between the '77  map and the 1984 map about in the middle of the  overlay.  Can you see that on the eastern -- central-  eastern side?  Yes, you are pointing to that.  A   In this area?  Q   Yes.  What area is that?  A   That's an area near Chapman Lake, and once again it  represents the generality of the line that we drew in  1977.  The line that we drew in 1984 is more precise  as to the location of the boundary.  Q   Now, in the south-eastern portion of the territory,  Mr. Sterritt, what area is that?  A   That's in the area of Burns Lake and south -- and  south-east of Bear Lake -- Burns Lake.  Q   Is that the area of the Wet'suwet'en hereditary  chiefs?  A   Yes, it is.  And it represents the further work that  Gisdaywa, Alfred Joseph, had done down in that area.  Q   All right.  A   Subsequent to the November 7th, 1977 map.  Q   And then there is a substantial area of difference  between the '77 and '84 maps in the southern portion  of the territory.  What area is that?  A   That area includes Whitesail Lake, Tahtsa Reach,  Tahtsa Lake, Ootsa Lake, and is the extension -- it's  Wet'suwet'en territory, and as a result of field trips  that Alfred Joseph took to that area.  Q   All right.  Now, I'm going to ask you to refer,  please, to the area on the western side, that would be  west of Smithers as shown on the map.  There is again  a difference between the '77 and the 1984 map.  What  area is that geographically? 7258  N.J. Sterritt (for Plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Rush 1 A   The Telkwa River  the head of the Telkwa River  2 is right in this area, and the Xsi Tsa Muutsax, the  3 Copper River, comes up and out near Terrace right in  4 this area.  And this is an area that was included in  5 the 1977 map but didn't necessarily include  6 Wet'suwet'en territories, it was the -- once again,  7 there was a degree of generality that we were  8 operating at in 1977.  We were -- the instructions  9 were to do a map to the best of our ability, our best  10 effort, and then to do more precise work later and  11 follow up.  It does not represent a territory that had  12 been excluded from the Wet'suwet'en territory.  13 Q   You gave the Gitksan name for the Copper River.  14 A   Xsi Tsa Muutsax.  That was Gwis gyen, Stanley Williams  15 referred to that.  16 MR. RUSH:  Go ahead.  17 THE TRANSLATOR:  X-s-i T-s-a —  18 THE COURT:  Sorry, X-s-i?  19 THE TRANSLATOR:  T-s-a.  20 THE COURT:  Sorry, what is after X-s-i, please?  21 A   Space T-s-a M-o-t-s-a.  22 THE COURT:  Thank you.  2 3 MR. RUSH:  24 Q   Now Mr. Sterritt, I wanted to direct you to a portion  25 just north of Terrace, there seems to be a difference  26 between the two maps north of Terrace.  On one  27 apparently the line moves a little farther to the  28 east, and in the second instance a little farther to  29 the west?  30 A   Yes.  This is in the area east of Kitsumkalum Lake at  31 Maroon Moutain, and that represents a better  32 definition of where the boundary went from the 1977  33 map to the 1984 map.  34 Q   Now, there are spaces in the definition of the line on  35 the 1984 map, Mr. Sterritt, and I wonder if you would  36 just look at Exhibit No. 649, and I wonder if you can  37 look to the description of the line and what appears  38 in the place, for example, where the -- I'll just  39 point, in the bottom right-hand corner, there is a  40 space, I believe, on the map.  What appears on 649?  41 A   In the -- it's near Burns Lake.  The line on Exhibit  42 64 9 runs along the Endako River and the name Endako  43 appears on Exhibit 649 where the gap is on this map.  44 Q   I just like you to look at the exhibit.  When you  45 review the exhibit, and I would ask you to review the  46 overlay number two, is it the case that where the gaps  47 appear on the line, that there are place names located 7259  N.J. Sterritt (for Plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Rush 1              at those points?  And I would ask you just to review  2 it and see if there are place names that you recognize  3 in Gitksan and Wet'suwet'en.  4 A  Wherever there is a gap on Exhibit 649 for a place  5 name in -- on the map that's drawn underneath, there  6 is also a gap on the overlay number two.  7 Q   Thank you.  Mr. Sterritt, to your recollection, was  8 there an amendment made to the Statement of Claim in  9 these proceedings in April of 1985?  10 A   Yes, there was.  11 Q   And was there a map appended as Appendix B to the  12 Statement of Claim at that time?  13 A   Yes, there was.  14 Q   And were there changes between the map that was  15 appended as Appendix B to the Statement of Claim of  16 October the 23rd, 1984, and the map that was appended  17 to the Statement of Claim -- the amended Statement of  18 Claim in April of 1985?  19 A   Yes.  20 Q   My Lord, there are appended to the statement --  21 amended Statement of Claim in April of 1985, a map,  22 and I would like to have that map.  I'm going to put  23 the copy of that map to the witness and I would like  24 to have that map marked as an exhibit.  The map that  25 is the copy that I'm going to put to the exhibit --  26 put to the witness, is a map which has a number of red  27 markings on it in felt pen, and some markings, "Map  28 number one," in black felt, and in the bottom  29 right-hand corner in ink, "Map three, L. Skoda, June  30 '88".  Those markings were not on the map that is the  31 appended map to the Statement of Claim.  32 I should also point out that I was instructed by  33 Mr. Skoda that he had to cut this map, that is map  34 number three, in order to produce the line which he  35 made, and so he cut it and reassembled it, and so  36 there is a number of plastic cellophane tape marks on  37 the back.  38 Showing you a map of a scale of 1:250,000, Mr.  39 Sterritt.  I wonder if you would just open it up and  40 say if you can identify that as the map that was  41 appended to the Statement of Claim in April of 1985.  42 This map is dated April 1st, 1985.  43 A   Yes, that is a copy of the map.  44 Q   All right.  Now, I take it these markings that show on  45 the map in orange and black in the bottom right-hand  4 6 corner, were not on the map that was the Appendix B?  47 A   No, they were not. 7260  N.J. Sterritt (for Plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Rush 1    MR. RUSH:  My Lord, can we  have the Appendix B to the amended  2 Statement of Claim of April 1st, 1985, marked as the  3 next exhibit, and this map can be the B portion of  4 that exhibit.  5 THE COURT:  All right.  Exhibit B.  6 MR. RUSH:  Oh, are we doing it separately?  7 THE COURT:  I thought you were doing it separately.  B to the  8 amended Statement of Claim of April 1st, 1985, will be  9 Exhibit 650.  10 THE REGISTRAR:  650.  11  12 (EXHIBIT 650 - Map, Appendix B to Amended Statement of  13 Claim dd. April 1, 1985)  14  15 THE COURT:  And this worked-over copy will be 651.  16 THE REGISTRAR:  Exhibit 651.  17  18 (EXHIBIT 651 - Copy of Map, Exhibit No. 650, with  19 Notations)  20  21 THE COURT:  And I take it that this third — or this second  22 overlay that we've -- represents or was intended to  23 represent Exhibit 651, is it?  24 MR. RUSH:  Intended to -- 651, I thought we just marked that.  25 Yes, that's right.  2 6 THE COURT:  Yes, all right.  And it shows the boundary in red?  27 MR. RUSH:  That's correct.  28 THE COURT:  The second overlay, yes.  29 MR. RUSH:  On the map scaled 1:250,000, My Lord, yes, it's sort  30 of a brownish-red colour.  31 THE COURT:  Yes.  But is it in any way different from the first  32 overlay except that it adds that northern enclave, but  33 other than that it's the same, is it not?  34 MR. RUSH:  Yes.  35 Q   Mr. Sterritt, I wonder if you would leave the witness  36 stand again and go to the map that's on the easel.  37 Direct your attention to that northern geographical  38 area that was excluded in map two, Exhibit 646, two of  39 the overlay.  In map three, that area is included  40 within the boundaries of the Gitksan and Wet'suwet'en  41 territories.  Do you have knowledge as to why that was  42 included?  43 A   Yes, I do.  44 Q   What is that?  45 A   The House of Geel from Kispiox under Walter Harris,  4 6 the family members lived -- some of them in Vancouver  47 and the rest of them in Kispiox.  Geel wanted to have 7261  N.J. Sterritt (for Plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Rush 1 a meeting with him  3:  I object to this, My Lord.  I'm getting tired of  hearing hearsay.  Was there a meeting of the family that you attended?  Yes, there was.  And was this meeting of the family prior to the time  that this amendment to the Statement of Claim was made  in April 1st of 1985?  Yes , it was.  And Walter Harris, Geel, was he at this meeting?  Yes, he was.  And were there other members of his house at the  meeting?  Yes, there were.  All right.  And did you attend for the whole of the  meeting?  Don Ryan, the executive director and I attended for  most of the meeting.  They sought information about  the court case, and after we had provided information  they asked Don Ryan and I to leave and they  discussed --  Now, I'm not going to ask you what was discussed in  your absence.  You left the meeting, is that right?  Yes.  All right.  And — all right.  Subsequent to the end of the meeting, the family of  Geel through Walter Harris and Lonnie Hindle, a member  of that house, contacted me and advised me that the  family members wished to be included in the court  case.  Okay.  And to your knowledge, is that the reason for  the amendment on April the first of 1985?  Yes, it is.  Just ask you to look, Mr. Sterritt, at the bottom  left -- I'm sorry, the middle left-hand portion of the  map on the south-eastern side -- I'm sorry, the  south-western side?  Yes.  To your knowledge, was the only change in -- between  maps two and three, the addition of the northern area  that you've just been talking about?  Yes.  Okay.  Do you have any explanation for the difference  in the two lines between maps two and three in that  south-westerly corner of the map?  Yes.  There is an area very close to Burnie River and  family before  —  2  MR.  GOLD  3  4  MR.  RUSH  5  Q  6  A  7  Q  8  9  10  A  11  Q  12  A  13  Q  14  15  A  16  Q  17  18  A  19  20  21  22  23  Q  24  25  A  26  Q  27  A  28  29  30  31  32  Q  33  34  A  35  Q  36  37  38  39  A  40  Q  41  42  43  A  44  Q  45  46  47  A 7262  N.J. Sterritt (for Plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Rush 1              there are two  lines there.  The reason for the two  2 lines is the inaccuracies in the National Topographic  3 System map, that there is a -- the maps -- pardon me,  4 the overlays were drawn according to the features that  5 were related to on the maps that were presented to Mr.  6 Skoda, and in doing so in this area there were --  7 there are weaknesses in the National Topographic  8 Systems maps.  That's all that that line represents,  9 it does not represent a change in the boundary.  10 Q   All right.  Could you just return to the witness box  11 please, and I'm going to ask Mr. Grant to assist me  12 with respect to the next map.  13 I'm now showing Mr. Sterritt a map that has been  14 entered as an exhibit, as Exhibit 102, and is entitled  15 "The Traditional Boundaries of the Gitksan-  16 Wet'suwet'en Territories."  Have a look at that map,  17 Mr. Sterritt.  18 A   Yes.  19 Q   Do you recognize that map?  2 0 A   Yes, I do.  21 Q   Now, Mr. Sterritt, who was it that drew the lines on  22 the map?  23 A  Marvin George.  24 Q   And do you know when it was that this map was drawn in  25 relation to the map, that's map number three on the  26 overlays dated April 1st, 1985?  27 A   This map was drawn after that map was drawn.  28 Q   Okay.  And can you -- can you say what the reason was,  29 if you know, for the preparation and production of  3 0 this map?  31 A   The lawyers had instructed Marvin George to prepare a  32 draft map of the internal territories for their use.  33 It was to be on the map with the external boundaries  34 as -- as they were -- as they appeared on the draft  35 number -- or overlay number three.  It was simply a  36 working map, something to assist them as the case was  37 prepared.  38 Q   All right.  And what can you say about what this map  39 was intended to show?  40 A   It was intended to show the internal boundaries of the  41 hereditary chiefs of the Gitksan and Wet'suwet'en, the  42 interrelationship.  43 Q   All right.  Now, the map is coded, is it not?  44 A   Yes.  45 Q   And can you just explain the coding on the map?  It's  46 on the legend on the right-hand side, I believe.  And  47 My Lord, the coding on this map appears in the upper 7263  N.J. Sterritt (for Plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Rush 1              right-hand corner  of your desk copy.  2 THE COURT:  Yes.  3 A   There is a three-digit code.  The first digit is a  4 number and refers to the clan.  For example, Lax Gibuu  5 which would be wolf, Lax Seel which would be frog, and  6 so on and so on.  Number one is Lax Gibuu, number two  7 is Lax Seel, on through the various clans.  And the  8 letter in the middle referred to the village of  9 origin.  For example:  A. Anlaxasemdex; B. Kuldoe or  10 Galdo'o; C. Gitanmaaxs, and so on for each of the  11 villages.  The third digit was a number as well and  12 referred to various chiefs.  Number one, Luus -  13 Amaget; number two, Wii Gaak - Ax Mooggwasx, and so on  14 down to 48, which included the Gitksan and the  15 Wet'suwet'en hereditary chiefs.  16 Q   Now, if you will, Mr. Sterritt, perhaps you could just  17 step off the witness stand again and go over to the  18 map on the easel, and if you will examine overlay map  19 three and overlay map four.  Is there any difference  20 between the two maps as to the place of the external  21 boundary?  22 A  With the exception of this problem area here, with the  23 base map.  24 Q   You are pointing to that area in the squiggley line on  25 the lower -- or the -- the south-west side?  26 A   Near Burnie River, yes.  With the exception of that  27 one spot, the external boundary is identical on  28 overlay four to overlay three.  29 Q   Okay.  And is the difference between map three and  30 four the addition of internal boundary lines?  31 A   Yes, it is.  32 Q   May I see 102 again, please.  Mr. Sterritt, on the  33 overlay which is map number four, there appears to be  34 breaks in the internal boundary lines on the overlay.  35 I just want you to confirm that for me on this, in  36 some cases those internal boundary lines are not  37 continuous?  38 A   Yes, that's right.  39 Q   All right.  Now, I wonder if you would just look at  40 this map 102, and if you can relate a break in the  41 map, perhaps on the -- just refer you to Exhibit 102  42 and south of Hazelton there is shown a break in a  43 territory that's marked here as l-C-10.  Do you see  44 the name that's located there, south of Hazelton on  4 5 the map?  4 6 A   Yes, I do.  47 Q   What is that that you've shown there? 7264  N.J. Sterritt (for Plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Rush 1 A   There is a  mountain there, Haak sayexit and it is just  2 above Dam stikyoodenhl, Seeley Lake.  3 Q   All right.  Haak, H-a-a-k, new word, S-a-y-e-x-i-t.  4 All right.  And if you compare the two, is it the case  5 that the breaks in the overlay are accounted for names  6 which appear on the line of the internal boundaries on  7 Exhibit 102?  8 A   Yes.  9 THE COURT:  Can we take the afternoon adjournment now, Mr. Rush?  10 MR. RUSH:  Very well.  11 THE COURT:  Thank you.  12 THE REGISTRAR:  Order in court.  Court will recess  13  14 (PROCEEDINGS ADJOURNED AT 3:00 p.m.)  15  16 I hereby certify the foregoing to be  17 a true and accurate transcript of  18 the proceedings herein transcribed to  19 the best of my skill and ability.  20  21  22  23  24 Toni Kerekes,  25 O.R., R.P.R.  26 United Reporting Service Ltd.  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  4 7 (PROCEEDINGS RESUMED PURSUANT TO ADJOURNMENT) 7265  N. Sterritt (for Plfs.)  In Chief by Mr. Rush 1  2 MR. GRANT:  Yes, my lord, before Mr. Rush proceeds, I just wish  3 to advise the court there are a couple of people that  4 came down from the north, a couple of the elders, and  5 they have a hard time hearing.  I ask that they can  6 sit in front of the bar.  7 THE COURT:  Oh, certainly.  8 MR. GRANT:  So they can be closer and hear.  9 MR. GOLDIE:  My lord, I don't know whether my friend is finished  10 with —  11 THE COURT:  They can go into the jury box if they wish, Mr.  12 Grant.  Sorry, Mr. Goldie.  13 MR. GOLDIE:  I was going to say, my lord, I don't know whether  14 my friend is finished with Exhibit 102.  I got the  15 impression he was.  But there is a legend on 102 which  16 is not transcribed onto the other map.  If your  17 lordship will look in the upper right-hand corner of  18 the overlay, there is a key to coding.  19 THE COURT:  Yes.  20 MR. GOLDIE:  Well, there is not reproduced on the overlay a  21 legend on the exhibit which reads as follows:  22 "Legend."  And then there are the three dark -- the  23 three lines: dark, medium and interrupted.  But below  24 that, Colour Coding.  Wolf territories, Frog  25 territories, Small Frog, Fireweed and Eagle.  It  26 suggests, my lord, that -- this Exhibit 102, which is  27 of course a photocopy of a copy.  It suggests there is  28 an original map which is colour coded.  And I think  29 that ought to be produced, my lord.  30 THE COURT:  What do you say about that, Mr. Rush?  31 MR. RUSH:  32 Q   I just draw to your attention, Mr. Sterritt, on  33 Exhibit 102 on the left-hand side it indicates  34 "legend."  Then under that, "colour coding."  Was this  35 map ever colour coded to your knowledge?  36 A   I have seen a copy of a map that was colour coded.  It  37 is done by hand, but was certainly not produced to  38 anyone.  It's simply an indication on that side that  39 would have gone with it.  But I haven't seen an  40 original that was circulated to anyone.  It's a matter  41 of coding in each of those house territories.  Or  42 colouring in those house territories with whatever  43 colour you want to put in those blocks.  44 Q   When that map was initially prepared, was it colour  45 coded?  46 A   No, it was not.  47 Q   The map that you've talked about is the one that 7266  N. Sterritt (for Plfs.)  In Chief by Mr. Rush 1 you've seen that  you say was colour coded.  Where have  2 you seen that?  3 A   I think there was one on the wall in Smithers.  4 Whether it had this legend on the left-hand side or  5 not, I don't know.  But each of these was colour coded  6 or was coloured according to a code.  7 Q   And you've only ever seen one like that?  8 A  Well, I did one, too.  But I don't know whether  9 it's -- whether it's this one.  I believe it was  10 useful to try and sort out the -- to be able to see  11 graphically the differences.  But it's I think one or  12 two -- pardon me.  Two were done, and one by Marvin  13 and one by myself.  And it was for our own use,  14 because it takes a long time.  You would -- I think it  15 takes something like four hours to do one map.  So it  16 wasn't something that was produced for anyone else.  17 Q   So you did one yourself by hand?  18 A   Yes, I did.  19 Q   And is it your understanding that Marvin did one by  20 himself by hand?  21 A   Yes.  22 MR. GOLDIE:  The other observation, my lord, is that map four  23 has a date on it, October 17, 1985.  I don't think  24 that date has been given in evidence and it is not on  25 the exhibit.  26 THE COURT:  All right.  Subject to those two items, do I take it  27 that —  28 MR. RUSH:  Perhaps I —  2 9 THE COURT:  Sorry.  30 MR. RUSH:  Go ahead.  31 THE COURT:  No, I am sorry.  Go ahead.  32 MR. RUSH:  Pardon me for interrupting, my lord.  33 Q   Mr. Sterritt, do you have any knowledge about the date  34 that's indicated on the overlay map number four  35 indicating October 17, 1985 as its date?  36 A   No, I don't.  37 THE COURT:  Subject to those two items then, do I take it then  38 that overlay map four is a reproduction of Exhibit  39 102?  4 0 MR. RUSH:  Yes.  41 MR. GOLDIE:  That's what it purports to be, my lord.  42 THE COURT:  Yes.  All right.  43 MR. GOLDIE:  I should also point out - and I'll leave the  44 significance of this to be developed in  45 cross-examination - that there is a pencil line  46 northeast of the boundary on Exhibit 102 which is not  47 reproduced here. 7267  N. Sterritt (for Plfs.)  In Chief by Mr. Rush 1    THE COURT:  All right.  Thank you.  2    MR. RUSH:  Mr. Sterritt, I want to show you Exhibit 101 in these  proceedings, another map of a similar size and noise.  Do you recognize this map, 101?  Yes, I do.  It's described as the Wet'suwet'en Territories  Affected by the Carrier Sakinni, S-a-k-i-n-n-i,  Overlap.  I am asking Mr. Grant to place that overlay.  Mr. Sterritt, I wonder if you will leave that map just  for a moment and would you go over and have a look at  the overlay, please.  If you would examine the  external boundary depicted on map four and the  boundary depicted on map five.  So far as you are  aware is there any difference between the external  boundaries of those two maps?  No.  I can see no difference.  There is a bit of an --  except for a bit of a line right at the north end of  Kitsumkalum Lake, and I don't think that line has any  significance.  :  Where is that again?  Right at the north end of Kitsumkalem Lake.  There is  a --  :  Kitsumkalem Lake is coloured in yours.  It isn't  coloured in mine, is it?  It is coloured here, yes.  It's blue.  :  Yes.  It's almost directly north of Terrace.  :  Yes.  I see it, yes.  Appears to be breaks on the external boundaries of  that, Mr. Sterritt?  Yes, there are.  And if you would perhaps examine this map Exhibit 102,  and can you confirm if those breaks are places where  there are Wet'suwet'en or Gitksan names in the  boundary?  Yes.  There are breaks in the boundary on map five and  they are where Gitksan and Wet'suwet'en names appear  on the boundary of the Wet'suwet'en territories  affected by the Carrier Sakinni overlap.  This is  Exhibit 101.  Just while we are on this map, Mr. Sterritt, if you  look on a number of the lines which appear to be  rivers or creeks, can you say whether or not some of  those rivers and creeks are identified by names that  you know to be Gitksan or Wet'suwet'en names?  2  MR.  RUSH:  3  Q  4  5  6  A  7  Q  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  A  18  19  20  21  THE  COURT  22  A  23  24  THE  COURT  25  26  A  27  THE  COURT  28  A  29  THE  COURT  30  MR.  RUSH:  31  Q  32  33  A  34  Q  35  36  37  38  A  39  40  41  42  43  Q  44  45  46  47 7268  N. Sterritt (for Plfs.)  In Chief by Mr. Rush 1          A   Yes.  2 Q   And I direct your attention specifically to Xsu gwin  3 ya'a, which is just north of Hagwilget as an example.  4 Do you understand that to be a Gitksan name?  5 A   That's Xsu gwin ya'a.  That's on Salmon River, which  6 flows into the Skeena immediately east of the Village  7 of Kispiox.  8 Q   Now, on in map 101, that is spelled X-s-u, new word  9 G-w-i-n, new word y-a-'-a.  Now, if you will just  10 perhaps hold this map so I can get away from it, Mr.  11 Sterritt.  12 A   I should say that it's probably the local term for  13 that river is Salmon River, but on the map it will  14 appear as Shegunia, S-h-e-g-u-n-i-a.  That's on the  15 topo map.  16 Q   Now, do you know the name for the preparation of the  17 Exhibit 101?  18 A   It was for the purpose of a meeting in Moricetown  19 where the boundary of the Carrier Sakinni people was  2 0 drawn on one of our maps and shown.  21 Q   And to your knowledge was this map displayed at a  22 meeting that you were aware of or attended?  23 A   Yes.  24 Q   What meeting was that?  25 A   That was a meeting in Moricetown where the Carrier  26 Sakinni attended.  I don't recall the exact date of  27 that.  28 Q   And, Mr. Sterritt, who was it that prepared this map  29 101?  30 A  Marvin George.  31 Q   All right.  I'd just like you to look at the area of  32 the map which is the southern area where the  33 Wet'suwet'en hereditary chiefs' territories are  34 located.  If you'll just examine 101 and go over to  35 the overlay and I'll ask you about the internal  36 boundaries of the Wet'suwet'en hereditary chiefs.  If  37 you'll just examine that and just go over here to the  38 overlay.  Now, if you'll just look at the maps four  39 and five and I'm particularly directing your attention  40 to the Wet'suwet'en hereditary chiefs' internal  41 boundaries.  Can you see by an examination of these  42 two overlays differences between the description of  43 the internal boundaries of the Wet'suwet'en chiefs on  44 maps four and five?  45 A   Yes.  There is a dashed line a dashed blue line that  46 appears in several locations on map number five,  47 overlay five, which do not appear on map number four. 7269  N. Sterritt (for Plfs.)  In Chief by Mr. Rush 1 There is also the  names of Wet'suwet'en hereditary  2 chiefs contained on map number five which do not  3 appear or appear as coded names on map number four.  4 Q   In some cases I note on map number five there is a  5 dashed line instead of a solid line.  Do you know --  6 do you have any knowledge as to why that is so?  7 MR. GOLDIE:  Well, my lord, I thought the witness had made it  8 very clear that it was Mr. Joseph who spoke to those  9 matters.  10 MR. RUSH:  Fair enough.  I'll withdraw the question.  11 Q   Now, Mr. -- if you'll just return to the witness  12 stand, Mr. Sterritt.  Just returning Exhibit 101 to  13 you.  At the meeting where this map was displayed, Mr.  14 Sterritt, can you say how the map was used, whether it  15 was -- how it was in fact used at the meeting you  16 attended?  17 A   It was used as a basis for discussion.  The  18 Wet'suwet'en hereditary chiefs pointed out their  19 territories and talked about them and questions were  20 raised as to why the boundary of the Carrier Sakinni  21 would go where it did so far west and across the  22 Wet'suwet'en territories.  23 Q   And was that issue a matter of discussion among the  24 Wet'suwet'en chiefs at that time?  2 5          A   Yes, it was.  2 6 THE COURT:  Well, does this map show me where the boundary or  27 alleged boundary of the Carrier Sakinni was?  Is  28 that —  29 MR. RUSH:  The overlay doesn't, my lord.  30 THE COURT:  The overlay doesn't?  31 MR. RUSH:  No, it doesn't.  32 THE COURT:  Oh, all right.  33 MR. GOLDIE:  I was going to suggest to your lordship that the  34 overlay, if it's going to be what it purports to be,  35 should have that boundary which is on Exhibit 101, the  36 prototype.  37 THE COURT:  Well —  38 MR. RUSH:  What it purports to be is a depiction of the external  39 and internal boundaries of the Gitksan and  4 0              Wet'suwet'en.  41 MR. GOLDIE:  Well, it states "Wet'suwet'en Territories Affected  42 by the Carrier Sakinni Overlap."  And if you don't  43 have the overlap from Exhibit 101 traced on it, I  44 don't think the overlay lives up to the promise of the  45 title.  46 THE COURT:  Well, how does this overlay show the territories  47 affected, Mr. Rush, or does it? 7270  N. Sterritt (for Plfs.)  In Chief by Mr. Rush 1    MR. RUSH:  Well, my lord,  this is a map that was made an exhibit  in the proceedings.  It doesn't show the territories  affected.  All right.  It wasn't my intention to demonstrate the territories  affected.  What I was endeavoring to do was to show  the external and internal boundaries.  What Exhibit  101 does is to show the affected territories.  All right.  Are the internal boundaries not the same  in maps four and five?  Subject to what Mr. Sterritt says, they aren't  exactly the same.  Oh, not exactly.  I see there is one in that large  southern territory, for example, is bisected by a  north/south line which wasn't there before.  And there are certain names that appear on the other  map --  Yes.  -- 101 that do not appear on the --  Yes.  All right.  So this is a refinement of the  internal boundaries?  Yes, I think it could be said to be that.  All right.  :  But it is not a copy of 101.  No, I agree with that.  Could I see Exhibit 101 for  a moment then, please?  I have seen this before and I  just want to refresh myself for a moment.  Yes, all  right.  I remember.  There you are.  See how easy it  is .  Now, Mr. Sterritt, in March of 1987 was a metes and  bounds description of a Gitksan Wet'suwet'en  territories prepared that reflected certain changes of  the external boundary of the Gitksan Wet'suwet'en  territories?  Yes.  Was that description a part of the summary expert  opinion report that was prepared at that time by you?  Yes.  I am going to ask Mr. Grant to just place the next map  number, map six on the overlay.  :  Well, is this being produced as something that Mr.  Sterritt has done in his capacity as an expert?  What  is the origin of this map, please?  Well, I have just given it to you.  :  Well, he's --  No.  2  3  4  THE  COURT:  5  MR.  RUSH:  6  7  8  9  THE  COURT:  10  11  MR.  RUSH:  12  13  THE  COURT:  14  15  16  MR.  RUSH:  17  ]  18  THE  COURT:  19  MR.  RUSH:  20  THE  COURT:  21  22  MR.  RUSH:  23  THE  COURT:  24  MR.  GOLDIE  25  THE  COURT:  26  27  28  29  30  MR.  RUSH:  31  Q  32  33  34  35  36  A  37  Q  38  39  A  40  Q  41  42  MR.  GOLDIE  43  44  45  MR.  RUSH:  46  MR.  GOLDIE  47  MR.  RUSH: 7271  N. Sterritt (for Plfs.)  In Chief by Mr. Rush 1    MR. GOLDIE:  He's not being  called here as an expert.  2 MR. RUSH:  No, he's not.  And the maps -- the metes and bounds  3 description that are contained within his report would  4 not be submitted.  5 MR. GOLDIE:  Well, never mind the metes and bounds there then.  6 What about the map, what's the origin of the map?  7 MR. RUSH:  The map, my lord, was produced at counsel's direction  8 reflecting the metes and bounds description of the  9 description given by Mr. Sterritt in his report in  10 March of 1987.  11 MR. GOLDIE:  Well —  12 MR. RUSH:  And was copied by Mr. Skoda.  13 THE COURT:  I am not sure that I am following what's happening  14 here, gentlemen.  15 MR. GOLDIE:  Well, the maps that we have had so far are either  16 produced by Mr. Marvin George --  17 THE COURT:  Yes.  18 MR. GOLDIE:  -- who is being called as an expert --  19 THE COURT:  Yes.  20 MR. GOLDIE:  — or by Mr. Skoda of whom we heard about the first  21 time today.  But this map was to be part -- it wasn't  22 actually part, but it was to be part of the expert  23 report or summary of the experts' report that Mr.  24 Sterritt was going to sponsor.  Now, it was made very  25 clear to us at the outset of this that he was not  26 being called here as an expert.  And if this is a map  27 that he has had anything to do with, then I'm going to  28 ask that he be reclassified as an expert, his report  29 completed and we'll deal with it in a proper basis.  30 But right now we are sort of in an in between --  31 betwixt and between.  32 MR. RUSH:  Well, Mr. Sterritt is not being tendered as an  33 expert, my lord.  At counsel's direction Mr. George  34 prepared a map that is reflected -- reflects the metes  35 and bounds that were contained within the report that  36 Mr. Sterritt prepared.  On that basis Mr. Skoda copied  37 the map that was there prepared.  I take it my  38 friend's objection is that it ought not to be -- we  39 ought not to proceed with this overlay.  And if that's  40 the objection, then we can proceed to the next one.  41 MR. GOLDIE:  Well, has this — never mind Mr. Skoda's overlay —  42 THE COURT:  I don't think if we get over the other problem, Mr.  43 Skoda's —  44 MR. GOLDIE:  That's right.  We can forget about that.  45 THE COURT:  Just to be safer in this regard without — I don't  46 intend any discredit to Mr. Skoda.  47 MR. GOLDIE:  I heard the name George escape from my friend's 7272  N. Sterritt (for Plfs.)  In Chief by Mr. Rush 1 lips, and if there  is a map produced from Mr. George  2 that we have yet to see, then --  3 THE COURT:  As I understand, and Mr. Rush, correct me,  4 because -- that Mr. Sterritt prepared a report of some  5 kind which included a metes and bounds description on  6 the territory external boundaries, I gather, and from  7 that report Mr. George prepared a map which has been  8 reproduced on this overlay by Mr. Skoda and Mr.  9 Sterritt is going to tell us something about Mr.  10 George's map; do I have it?  11 MR. RUSH:  That's right.  12 THE COURT:  Yes.  13 MR. GOLDIE:  Well, my point is unless there is some that is  14 missing here, this is a new map.  Mr. George's is a  15 new map.  16 THE COURT:  Yes.  17 MR. GOLDIE:  And I would like to see that map before the witness  18 testifies with respect to Mr. Skoda's miniaturization  19 of it.  2 0 THE COURT:  Or reproduction it.  21 MR. RUSH:  Reproduction.  22 THE COURT:  Yes.  My copy is in miniature.  The other one is  23 just a reproduction, I gather.  Is that map --  24 MR. RUSH:  Yes, I have it.  25 THE COURT:  — available?  Has Mr. Sterritt's expert report been  26 produced?  27 MR. RUSH:  No.  It's been not produced to the court.  It's been  28 disclosed to the other side.  2 9 MR. MACAULAY:  We have a summary, my lord.  Not the map.  30 MR. GOLDIE:  We have a summary and the map is in the summary.  31 It stated the map will come along later.  32 THE COURT:  Yes, all right.  33 MR. GOLDIE:  But if this is a map drawn from Mr. Sterritt's  34 metes and bounds description, this is a departure from  35 what has gone on.  3 6 THE COURT:  Yes.  37 MR. GOLDIE:  And I have an objection to this map, Mr. George's  38 map, because that will represent the judgment of Mr.  39 Sterritt with respect to the information he got from  40 the hereditary chiefs.  Before this, Mr. Sterritt has  41 simply passed that information through to Mr. George.  42 Now, there is the intervening judgment at work with  43 respect to the metes and bounds.  4 4 THE COURT:  Yes.  45 MR. GOLDIE:  And that, of course, was going to be the subject  46 matter of the expert -- his status as an expert  47 witness.  I don't think we can -- should be asked to 7273  N. Sterritt (for Plfs.)  In Chief by Mr. Rush 1 deal with this  under the present circumstances.  2 THE COURT:  Well, I took it that Mr. Rush wasn't pressing to  3 proceed with this at this time.  If that's so, that  4 solves our problem.  5 MR. MACAULAY:  Well —  6 THE COURT:  I am not sure if that's right.  7 MR. MACAULAY:  If Mr. Sterritt is coming back in his other  8 incarnation as an expert, then surely this map can be  9 dealt with in the same way as maps drawn by his  10 colleague that are being marked for identification.  11 That way we won't have the situation of having, well,  12 maps one to six and map eight but not map seven.  13 THE COURT:  Well, I was going to inquire, Mr. Goldie, is there  14 any problem with Mr. Sterritt describing this map as  15 is sometimes done in cases, merely because we only  16 have one witness in the box at a time, subject to  17 the -- subject to the underlying information being  18 furnished by a subsequent witness?  19 MR. GOLDIE:  Well, as I said, this represents a departure.  2 0 THE COURT:  Yes.  21 MR. GOLDIE:  Mr. Sterritt is taking the information given him by  22 the hereditary chiefs, as I understand it, translating  23 that into a metes and bounds description and saying to  24 Mr. George, "Here, do it."  His previous evidence was,  25 "I took the information from the hereditary chiefs,  26 wrote it down in my notebook and handed those to  27 Marvin George.  From that and with other information  28 Mr. George drew maps."  Now, there is the application  29 of judgment in taking the information obtained from  30 the hereditary chiefs and changing that into a metes  31 and bounds description.  32 THE COURT:  But there is application of judgment in the part of  33 Mr. George in preparing the map.  34 MR. GOLDIE:  Oh, absolutely.  Absolutely.  And he's being  35 tendered as an expert.  36 THE COURT:  And you are going to challenge that perhaps when you  37 cross-examine Mr. George.  38 MR. GOLDIE:  Well, I can't challenge the metes and bounds if he  39 said all I did was take them.  4 0 THE COURT:  Yes.  41 MR. GOLDIE:  Now —  42 THE COURT:  But is Mr. — is Mr. Sterritt, when he is preparing  43 a metes and bounds, not just taking that from the  44 information as he has received from others?  45 MR. GOLDIE:  Not according to my understanding.  As I read the  46 summary of his report, and as I endeavored to follow  47 it through, at the time when we assumed he was going 7274  N. Sterritt (for Plfs.)  In Chief by Mr. Rush 1 to be called as an  expert, this was an essential part  2 where he was applying his judgment to what I'll call  3 the raw material.  4 THE COURT:  By deciding that if a certain fact is accepted that  5 the boundary would be the nearest head of lands or  6 something like that?  7 MR. GOLDIE:  I am not quite sure.  8 THE COURT:  Yes.  9 MR. GOLDIE:  But certainly there is a big gap between the  10 information that he appears to have recorded from the  11 hereditary chiefs and a metes and bounds description.  12 And that gap is filled by him using his experts'  13 knowledge.  Expert meaning the application of  14 judgment.  15 THE COURT:  The problem here, I gather, arises because Mr.  16 Sterritt is not yet clothed with the colouration of an  17 expert witness.  18 MR. GOLDIE:  Well, precisely.  We were given a summary and we  19 were told that he would be called as an expert and  20 that would be subject to the usual 60 days rule and we  21 would take our own experts and say now, what is it  22 about this that we should be considering.  That's all  23 gone by the board.  Now, we were told -- and Mr.  24 Macaulay suggested Mr. Sterritt might re-emerge, but  25 we were told at the outset that he was not being  26 called a second time.  27 MR. MACAULAY:  I understood my learned friends, one of my  28 learned friends - I don't know which one - to say  29 something yesterday or today that led me to believe  30 that Mr. Sterritt would be back.  I thought I was --  31 MR. GOLDIE:  I didn't hear that.  I asked my friend Mr. Rush at  32 the outset is he being called a second time.  33 MR. MACAULAY:  Or I wouldn't have made that proposal.  34 THE COURT:  I thought Mr. Sterritt was coming back in another  35 guise.  Am I wrong in that, Mr. Rush?  36 MR. RUSH:  I disagree with Mr. Goldie here.  I indicated that  37 Mr. Sterritt would not be called as an expert.  3 8 THE COURT:  At all?  39 MR. RUSH:  That's right.  40 MR. MACAULAY:  I am sorry.  I misunderstood what my friend said.  41 THE COURT:  I have been belabouring under that misapprehension  42 as well.  Well, has the metes and bounds description  43 in the statement of claim been amended?  44 MR. RUSH:  There was an amendment in the statement of claim that  45 was presented to your lordship May 11, 1987.  46 THE COURT:  And it was amended then to reflect this later metes  47 and bounds Mr. Sterritt says he prepared? 7275  N. Sterritt (for Plfs.)  In Chief by Mr. Rush 1    MR. RUSH:  Yes.  2 THE COURT:  I see.  3 MR. GOLDIE:  Well, we can certainly have put up on the wall the  4 meets -- the map attached to the statement of claim.  5 THE COURT:  Yes.  6 MR. GOLDIE:  But if that was drawn from meets -- if that was  7 drawn according to metes and bounds description  8 supplied by Mr. Sterritt, then we are back where we  9 started from, but at least it's not a new map.  It is  10 a document that is part of these proceedings already.  11 THE COURT:  Well, does it not go to weight rather than to  12 admissibility?  Here we have a knowledgeable person,  13 trained, although not qualified, as a cartographer,  14 but trained in making and working with maps who is  15 called as a witness.  Counsel, for his own reasons,  16 chooses not to call him as an expert, but does that  17 disentitle him from giving any evidence about  18 something that he did in a technical or  19 quasi-technical capacity?  Does it not go to weight  20 rather than admissibility?  21 MR. GOLDIE:  Well, it seems ironic that we are getting into this  22 field.  23 THE COURT:  It's completely metaphysical, no doubt about that.  24 MR. GOLDIE:  It is having regard to the submissions that I made  25 about a year ago.  The basic question comes down to  26 this:  Is the court -- does the court require the  27 assistance in respect of some technical matter that an  28 ordinary juryman couldn't see for himself from a  29 discussion of facts?  Now, there has been no problem  30 so far.  Mr. Sterritt collects facts and he hands them  31 on to a map maker who translates that.  But at this  32 point it's not a question of collecting facts and  33 handing them on.  It is the question of translating  34 them into something which, if I understand it  35 correctly, without the assistance of Mr. Sterritt you  36 couldn't follow it from the raw material to the map.  37 Now, if that middle step is essential, then in my  38 submission it's not a question of weight.  It is a  39 question of the court accepting the judgment of  40 somebody who is specially skilled.  And if he is  41 specially skilled and your lordship accepts him as  42 such, then whatever other name the rose may be called,  43 he's an expert.  And we're quite prepared to deal with  44 him as such.  But here we haven't got 60 days of  45 advance warning of a report.  We are told that Mr.  46 Sterritt is being called as a lay witness.  And I can  47 put it this way:  If this is -- if this is to be 7276  admitted on the  basis that he  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  N. Sterritt (for Plfs.)  In Chief by Mr. Rush 1  is using special skills  and your lordship needs to have that assistance, then  I will deal with him as an expert.  But I won't deal  with him in the sense that I was going to deal with  him as a lay witness.  I'll deal with him in  September.  THE COURT:  Well, is it any different from a witness -- a lay  witness being asked to assist by drawing a sketch in  the box?  Witnesses are asked to do that all the time.  MR. GOLDIE:  Yes.  They —  THE COURT:  Usually with disastrous results, but they are asked  to do it all the time.  MR. GOLDIE:   What they do is they say yes, I was standing at  the intersection when the man drove through the red  light and he hit the other fellow on the far side.  Now, would you please draw a little sketch which  reflects what you saw.  That's the transcription of  what the witness has seen onto a piece of paper.  This  is the transcription of what the witness was told by  others, and your lordship has yet to see the form in  which that is recorded.  But when you see that you  will understand that there is a very considerable  amount of judgment required to transcribe that.  He's  not describing the incident at the intersection that  he saw, at least that's not the understanding we have.  THE COURT:  Well, is the information upon which the metes and  bounds was prepared not all in evidence by way of the  affidavits or the viva voce evidence I've heard?  MR. GOLDIE:  No, not yet.  MR. RUSH:  Not all of this, my lord.  All of the Gitksan.  THE COURT:  I am sorry, we haven't got all the Wet'suwet'en.  MR. GRANT:  That's right.  MR. RUSH:  All of the Gitksan.  THE COURT:  On the assumption they are going to have them all,  and assuming then that the underlying facts are in  evidence or that there is evidence which, if accepted,  would constitute the underlying facts, is there  anything magical about a witness, without being an  expert, taking that information and putting it into  some compendious and understandable form?  Does he  have to be an expert to do that?  MR. GOLDIE:  We don't need Mr. Sterritt then if we are going to  depend upon the affidavits.  THE COURT:  No.  Mr. Sterritt — Mr. Sterritt doesn't provide  the raw material.  The raw material is in the  affidavits.  All Mr. Sterritt is doing is correlating  all the material together in one particular form, in 7277  N. Sterritt (for Plfs.)  In Chief by Mr. Rush 1 this case a metes  and bounds.  It could have been done  2 with mosaic photographs, I suppose they were there, or  3 it could be done in a map or it could be done in a  4 metes and bounds.  5 MR. GOLDIE:  Well, I repeat, if you are going to say the  6 underlying material is in the affidavits and the  7 evidence which your lordship has heard from chiefs and  8 you have heard evidence on territories, the metes and  9 bounds is not just simply a question of extending a  10 few yards down here, a few yards down there.  It is  11 creating a boundary.  That's what the metes and bounds  12 description does.  It creates a boundary.  13 THE COURT:  Well, it may be that — it may be that at the  14 conclusion he reaches and puts in his metes and bounds  15 is not supportable by the material, the underlying  16 material.  It may be that he's erred in his  17 comprehension of what's in the material.  But if a  18 knowledgeable person not qualified as an expert does  19 that, is the court precluded from receiving it?  20 MR. GOLDIE:  No.  It will -- it will treat him as having special  21 skills.  And the other leg of that is that the court  22 needs that special skills, because it is not a fact  23 which is obvious to the juryman, to use the old test.  24 THE COURT:  I am not sure it was the juryman.  I think it was  25 the poor judge, Mr. Goldie.  We need help, too, along  26 with juries.  27 MR. GOLDIE:  I forget whether there was a — I think the  28 judgments have referred to both, have coupled both.  2 9 THE COURT:  I am sure they have.  30 MR. GOLDIE:  But the -- I don't see what the magic is with  31 respect to this map, that's my concern.  We can deal  32 with the statement of claim map because that was filed  33 in May.  34 THE COURT:  Yes.  35 MR. GOLDIE:  But this map is one that was promised as forth  36 coming in Mr. Sterritt's examination for discovery  37 over a year ago, and it just hasn't appeared until  38 today, and I am not raising the objection that it  39 wasn't -- it wasn't presented in the time required  40 under the rules.  I am raising what I consider to be a  41 more fundamental objection.  42 THE COURT:  Well, I am sorry that I am not going to be able to  43 dispose of this matter this afternoon.  I am still in  44 a state of some uncertainty and it is past the  45 adjournment time, so we will have to adjourn this  46 interesting dialogue tomorrow morning and I'll look  47 forward to hearing -- to discussing the matter further 7278  N. Sterritt (for Plfs.)  In Chief by Mr. Rush 1 with counsel at  that time.  We will adjourn now until  2 10 o'clock tomorrow morning.  Thank you.  3  4 (PROCEEDINGS ADJOURNED UNTIL JUNE 24, 1988 AT 10:00  5 A.M.)  6  7  8 I hereby certify the foregoing to be  9 a true and accurate transcript of the  10 proceedings herein to the best of my  11 skill and ability.  12  13  14  15  16 Laara Yardley,  17 Official Reporter,  18 United Reporting Service Ltd.  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47


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