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Delgamuukw Trial Transcripts

[Proceedings of the Supreme Court of British Columbia 1988-09-14] British Columbia. Supreme Court Sep 14, 1988

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 7720  N. Sterritt (For Plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Rush  1 SEPTEMBER 14, 1988  2 VANCOUVER, B.C.  3  4 (PROCEEDINGS RECONVENED AT 10:00 a.m.)  5  6 THE REGISTRAR:  Order in court.  In the Supreme Court of British  7 Columbia, this Wednesday, September 14, 1988.  Calling  8 the matter of Delgamuukw versus Her Majesty the Queen  9 at bar, My Lord.  10 Caution the witness, you are still under oath.  11 THE WITNESS:  Okay.  12 THE COURT:  Mr. Rush.  13 MR. RUSH:  Thank you.  Yesterday, Mr. Sterritt, I had concluded  14 the evidence -- or the introduction of your evidence  15 by referring you to Exhibit 415.  Ask you to turn to  16 that in the book of documents in front of you.  As I  17 indicated yesterday, this is the portion of -- this is  18 part two of three parts.  19 THE COURT:  Excuse me, Mr. Rush.  Thank you, Mr. Rush.  2 0 MR. RUSH:  21 Q   Yes.  Mr. Sterritt, you indicated this was a map of  22 the Wii Minosik territory at Damdochax or Blackwater?  23 A   Yes.  24 Q   And you had obtained from hereditary chiefs,  25 information which you passed on to Marvin George which  26 is reflected in the outline of the territory on this  27 map; is that so?  28 A   Yes.  29 Q   And you've reviewed this map, and can you tell us if,  30 after having provided the information to Mr. George  31 and the representation appearing as it does on this  32 map, if you came by other information from the  33 hereditary chiefs which led you to conclude that the  34 boundary should be different than it is as depicted  35 here?  36 A   Yes, I did.  37 Q   And can you just indicate what that information was?  38 A   The information that appears on here is incomplete,  39 and also I made an extrapolation that based on the  40 information I had, that was incorrect.  41 Q   All right.  Now, the extrapolation that you indicate  42 is located where?  43 A   It's the area -- you can see the name Niist,  44 N-i-i-s-t, on the left-hand side of the map, and if  45 you come to the heavy line in front of there where it  46 goes in both directions, both east to the Nass River,  47 and if you go north from about the same point also to 7721  N. Sterritt (For Plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Rush  1 another point on the Nass River further up, that area  2 was an extrapolation I made on some information I had  3 that was wrong.  4 Q   Okay.  5 A  And also, there is -- I'm basically on the -- if you  6 continue on the east side of the Nass River at the --  7 on the southerly line, there is an extrapolation I  8 make there, which I later find there is further detail  9 on that area.  It's a minor change but there is more  10 detail that I obtained later.  11 Q   The Nass River is indicated by Xsi Txemsem here?  12 A   Yes, it is.  13 Q   The large letters of the -- on the river that comes  14 through the left-hand side of the map; is that right?  15 A   Yes.  That's spelt X-s-i space T-x-e-m-s-e-m.  16 Q   All right.  Were there any other changes that resulted  17 from the information you received from the chiefs?  18 A   Yes.  I also obtained more detailed information that  19 is not reflected on this map that shows that the  20 boundary in fact is -- well, if you look at the "M" on  21 Txemsem, T-x-e-m-s-e-m, where it curves at the "M",  22 the detail that I obtained is that the boundary goes  23 up onto the mountain just in that area, and then along  24 to meet -- along the top of the mountain north-west to  25 meet the other line, and that would be the area  26 described, then would be an exclusion of the existing  27 boundary.  So I obtained partly from a field trip and  28 partly from reviewing the information with the  29 hereditary chiefs from that field trip, where that  30 boundary should be in finer detail.  31 Q   Okay.  Can you say anything further about this  32 depiction concerning the -- any changes that resulted  33 after it was drawn?  34 A   Only that with that -- that I did obtain further  35 detailed information, and it would be reflected on  36 this map.  It's not present there because I didn't  37 have it at the time, or if I did, it hadn't been  38 turned over to Marvin George for him to have mapped at  39 that time.  I believe it was September of 1986 that I  40 went on a field trip to this area, and that's when I  41 received that more detailed information.  42 Q   Just referring to your summary of the field trip, Mr.  43 Sterritt, there is a field trip that you indicated  44 here dated September 6th, 1986, in which you went to  45 the south of Slamgeesh Lake north of Blackwater Lake,  46 Devil's Claw Mountain, with Walter Blackwater, David  47 Blackwater and Nancy Supernault.  Is that the trip you 7722  N. Sterritt (For Plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Rush  1 are referring to?  2 A   That's the trip I'm referring to.  And the information  3 that I based this on was from discussions I had had  4 earlier with Walter Blackwater and Nancy Supernault,  5 and that would appear possibly as early as 1982 or '83  6 in my field books.  The latter information appears on  7 my loose-leaf notes.  8 Q   All right.  The latter information coming from which  9 hereditary chiefs?  10 A   From Walter Blackwater.  11 Q   Yes?  12 A   Nancy Supernault.  13 Q   Yes?  14 A  And David Blackwater.  15 Q   Okay.  And can you just give us an approximate date on  16 when you received that additional information?  17 A  Well, partly from the field trip on -- in early  18 September, and also from subsequent discussions as I  19 reviewed the information that I got from the field  20 trip, I was able to then zero in on these locations  21 and be more precise in where the boundary went there.  22 Q   I wonder if you would just step off the witness stand  23 and go to overlay 9-A, and could you point out to His  24 Lordship where it is that this territorial area is  25 located on that overlay?  26 A   This is Blackwater Lake right here, and the red line,  27 the map that's Exhibit 415 is this line here, and  28 here, and around in this direction, all the way  29 around.  The changes are reflected in the adjustment  30 in this area and along here, and any other changes  31 that appear there are primarily based on better  32 resolutions of heights of land with better maps.  33 There is a change in this area as well, but that  34 has more to do with the height of land than with where  35 the -- where the boundary goes.  That would be a  36 resolution of height of land.  37 THE COURT:  With Mr. Rush's permission, could you mark on my map  38 where the change is that you just described?  Not the  39 heights of land but the extrapolation adjustments.  Is  40 that satisfactory, Mr. Rush?  41 MR. RUSH:  Yes.  42 THE COURT:  Good, thank you.  43 THE WITNESS:  The finer detail, I followed the height of land  44 here in the first place at the -- on the east side of  45 the Nass River, and the adjustment that was pointed  46 out to me by Walter Blackwater was that.  47 The other extrapolation across on this side was 7723  1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  N. Sterritt (For Plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Rush  based on a reference to a small area in here, and in  fact this should have gone like so, right up to the  top of this range of mountains and along like this.  And that mountain is Loop Guu Hanak, L-o-o-p space  G-u-u space H-a-n-a-k.  The other is that it's difficult from most maps  to determine where the height of land is here, and in  fact it goes more like so.  That's at the easterly extremity of the area  shown --  WITNESS:  Yes, it is.  COURT:  — within the heavy black line?  WITNESS:  Yes.  COURT:  Can you show me where Blackwater Lake is.  Yes,  you've circled red.  Thank you.  Do counsel want to see what the witness has drawn?  THE COURT  THE  THE  THE  THE  THE  MR.  COURT  RUSH:  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Thank you, Mr. Sterritt, you can set that map aside.  All right.  I now would like to direct your  attention, please, to Exhibit 417 which should be in  the same volume.  This is a map attached to the  interrogatory response of Luus, also known as Jeffrey  Harris Senior, dated August 9, 1986.  It's the second  of two parts, it's Exhibit 417 on a map marked "Draft  Copy."  Mr. Sterritt, you had received information from  hereditary chiefs concerning the place of the Luus  territory that is depicted in this Exhibit 417?  Yes, I did.  And can you just express to the court who it was that  you received this information from?  The information for this territory was primarily from  Pete Muldoe, and this would appear in my field books,  possibly as far back as 1982, 1981, where he was -- he  described this area as being the territory of Luus,  and gave me some detail.  We had no maps in front of  us, I was simply drawing in my field book what he was  telling me, and those sketches will appear in my field  book.  Other persons who either at the same moment or  subsequently provided some information were Albert  Tait, James Morrison and David Gunanoot.  Now James  Morrison and David Gunanoot, it would be part of the  field trip that we made to that area in 1983.  That was a field trip that occurred on June the 23rd,  1983?  If that's to the Shelf Ridge that's mentioned there, 7724  N. Sterritt (For Plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Rush  1 then that would be the one.  There was three days, I  2 don't know which day it might have been, two or three  3 separate days.  4 Q   Yes.  It indicates on your summary that there was a  5 field trip to Shelf Ridge on June 30, 1983?  6 A   That's the one then.  7 Now Pete described this to me on more than one  8 occasion, and I -- so it would appear -- I think even  9 some of the sketches would appear in subsequent  10 entries in my field book.  And in any event, that  11 would be the material -- or part of the information  12 that Marvin would have relied on for this -- for parts  13 of this map.  14 Q   Okay.  Now subsequent to the preparation of this map,  15 did you receive other information which led you to  16 conclude that the names on the map, or the line on the  17 map was not accurate or complete?  18 A   Yes.  This -- this map in particular reflects a number  19 of problems, extrapolation, location of creeks and  20 insufficient information.  For example, I was given  21 the name Xsi Duutswit, that's spelt X-s-i space  22 D-u-u-t-s-w-i-t.  23 Q   May I just ask you to pause there.  There is a  24 spelling for a name like that on this map.  Can you  25 point that out, identify where that is on this map?  26 A  Well, if you come up the Skeena River which is on the  27 left-hand quadrant, you see a little tent-like symbol  28 by some writing there, at Tselasm Gansxw, that's  29 T-s-e-1-a-s-m, G-a-n-s-x-w, under the name Kuldoe.  30 And right below that tent-like feature is a creek  31 entering the Skeena from the east, and that's Xsi  32 Duutswit, X-s-i space D-u-u-t-s-w-i-t.  33 Q   Now, is that -- is the place of that creek and the  34 name -- well, is the name of that creek accurate?  35 A   No.  The -- I had quite a difficulty in locating which  36 creek along the east side of the Skeena was Xsi  37 Duutswit, and as I mentioned, a lot of these  38 discussions were at a table without a map, and even  39 with a map I still had difficulty doing that.  And  40 eventually through discussions with both Pete Muldoe  41 and Richard Benson, I was able to establish that Xsi  42 Duutswit, in fact, was the next main creek as you go  43 north on the east side of the Skeena.  That has a name  44 on it, that's X-s-a-n, L-i-1-i-x, Xsan Lilix.  And  45 Xsan Lilix, the name that appears there, in fact is a  46 tributary of the main creek, Xsi Duutswit.  47 Having finally, and I say over -- this was over 7725  N. Sterritt (For Plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Rush  1 several years, over a period of time established that  2 Xsi Duutswit was that creek, and it was partly a  3 result of being to Old Kuldoe and New Kuldoe and  4 landing there with Albert Tait and Robert Blackwater  5 and David Blackwater in 1986, and also narrowing it  6 down just by mileages in relation to Old Kuldoe.  7 Q   And Old Kuldoe is indicated on this map as being Gowal  8 Mihlxw?  9 A   Yes.  10 Q   And that's G-o-w-a-1, new word, M-i-h-i-1 -- sorry,  11 M-i-h-1-x-w?  12 A   Yes.  13 Q   What was the significance of -- if any, of the place  14 of the creek Xsi Duutswit?  15 A  Well, it was more in relation to the northern boundary  16 of Luus, and once I was able to establish where Xsi  17 Duutswit was, I was able to establish where the  18 northern boundary was in relation to that and in  19 relation to Old Kuldoe.  20 And in this case, on this map, Gowal Mihlxw,  21 G-o-w-a-1 space M-i-h-1-x-w, is about an inch farther  22 north.  Where you see a number 1447, that's really  23 where Gowal Mihlxw should be located.  When I landed  24 there with a helicopter, I found the survey marker  25 with the number 1447 on it, and it's the same place  26 that we located -- or we landed on our -- the overview  27 last summer.  And that's when I saw the 1447 on the  28 map, then I was able to locate it more accurately.  It  29 was difficult to identify that.  30 Q   And there is a name there, it looks like Wilska  31 Malgan?  32 A   Yes.  33 Q   That's spelt W-i-1-s-k-a, new word, M-a-1-g-a-n.  34 A   Yes.  35 Q   Is that properly located on this map?  36 A   No, it's not properly spelled and it's not properly  37 located.  You go another approximately two inches to a  38 sharp bend in the river, and that's where Wii Skamahl  39 Gan is, being W-i-1 space S-k-a-m-a-h-1 space G-a-n,  40 that's where it really is located.  41 Q   That's two inches upstream on the river?  42 A   From the number 1447 that appears right near it, yes.  43 Q   All right.  44 THE COURT:  Does that move Old Kuldoe as well —  45 THE WITNESS:  Yes.  4 6    THE COURT:  — from this map?  47    THE WITNESS:  Old Kuldoe should move right to where that number 7726  N. Sterritt (For Plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Rush  1 1447 is.  2 THE COURT:  I haven't found that number yet.  3 THE WITNESS:  It's right under — there is a name there — it's  4 spelled W-i-1-s-k-a --  5 THE COURT:  Oh yes, I see it.  6 THE WITNESS:  Right there is the number 1447, and that's where  7 we landed at Old Kuldoe on the overview.  8 THE COURT:  Right.  This is Old Kuldoe not New Kuldoe?  9 THE WITNESS:  Yes.  10 MR. RUSH:  11 Q   Now in respect of -- you said that the determination  12 of the creek Xsi Duutswit led you to establish more  13 accurately the northern boundary of Luus.  Can you  14 just express what the later information led you to  15 conclude about that northern boundary?  16 A  When I sat down with -- later with Pete Muldoe and  17 Richard Benson to get this in more detail -- well I  18 sat down with them separately -- Pete pointed out that  19 it was closer to Old Kuldoe and about two miles north  20 of Xsi Duutswit, X-s-i space D-u-u-t-s-w-i-t.  And  21 with that information I was able to establish that  22 boundary, and Pete was fairly precise with me as to  23 how it proceeded on up to the mountain called Gwin  24 Wijix, that's G-w-i-n space W-i-j-i-x.  25 Now here is where Marvin had more difficulties.  26 He was working with my notes and trying -- and more or  27 less in my absence, and trying to put together a draft  28 map, and he had a number of features that he was  29 working in relation to, and mislocated them.  Now  30 that's -- for example, if you go -- if you go almost  31 straight east about nine inches from the word  32 "Kuldoe", you see the name Gwin Wijix, G-w-i-n space  33 W-i-j-i-x.  And in fact, that mountain is Tommy Jack  34 Mountain which is north of the boundary, the existing  35 boundary on this map, on the north boundary where you  36 see Andap Matx.  37 Q   All right.  Now if I can just ask you to pause there.  38 The word Gwin Wijix --  39 A   Yes.  40 Q   -- on this map is located up and left of the word  41 Galsii Tip Xaat?  42 A   Tip Xaat, yes.  43 Q   And that's spelt G-a-1-s-i-i, new word, T-i-p, new  44 word, X-a-a-t.  Do you have that, My Lord?  It's in  45 the bottom middle of the map in large lettering.  46 THE COURT:  I'm sorry, I got — I found Gwin Wijix.  47 MR. RUSH:  That's fine.  That's what I wanted to locate for you. 7727  N. Sterritt (For Plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Rush  1 THE COURT:  I gather it should be Andap Matx?  2 THE WITNESS:  Yes.  3 THE COURT:  The name here shown for Gwin Wijix has some other  4 name, has it?  5 THE WITNESS:  Yes.  That is Lax an Hak, L-a-x space a-n space  6 H-a-k, which is all of Shelf Ridge.  7 MR. RUSH:  8 Q   Now, Mr. Sterritt, there are two places on this map  9 that I have found where Lax -- the words "Lax an Hak"  10 are located, and one is just north or above Gwin Wijix  11 about four inches, and the other is again further up  12 the map about 12 inches.  13 A   That's right, almost directly above it.  And that one  14 is misplaced, the one in the north.  The one in the  15 south is -- indicates a point.  In fact, it's the  16 whole ridge.  If you see the typed contours going  17 slightly south-east, it's all of those typed contours  18 going south-east which is on the map as Shelf Ridge.  19 THE COURT:  So Shelf Ridge runs south from what is shown on this  2 0 map as Gwin Wijix?  21 THE WITNESS:  Yes, yes.  22 MR. RUSH:  23 Q   Now your subsequent information, coming back to the  24 question of establishing the northern Luus boundary,  25 what did that indicate to you?  26 A   That the -- well, that there was -- that the boundary  27 as it's drawn here is inaccurate.  2 8 THE COURT:  North boundary?  29 A  Most of the boundary on this territory is inaccurate,  30 and it's mainly a reflection of Marvin attempting to  31 locate these features and at a time when I'm not  32 necessarily around.  I was pretty busy on the  33 constitution at that time to give him a hand.  34 MR. RUSH:  35 Q   Now, in terms of the northern boundary, could you just  36 express the inaccuracy at that point?  37 MR. GOLDIE:  Excuse me, I didn't understand the answer the  38 witness gave a minute ago.  He said Marvin was trying  39 to do something, and because he wasn't around because  40 he was busy on the constitution.  What time of the  41 year are we talking about?  I thought we were talking  42 about 1986?  43 THE WITNESS:  Well, this map would have been drafted at some-  44 time previous to that, and they were just draft maps.  45 Marvin was doing a number of them, and I had updated  46 information which Marvin didn't necessarily have,  47 or -- and also, my availability, because I was busy as 772?  N. Sterritt (For Plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Rush  1 president doing other things.  2 MR. GOLDIE:  Well I'm sorry, My Lord, I don't want to interrupt,  3 but I'm trying to get the time that the witness had in  4 mind when he said, "I was busy with the constitution."  5 I take it that's either 1981 or 1982; am I correct on  6 that?  7 THE WITNESS:  No.  I was busy on the constitution — the last  8 constitutional conference that I attended was in 1985.  9 MR. GOLDIE:  Well that's — that's the date I'm trying to pin  10 down.  11 MR. RUSH:  There, we have it.  12 THE COURT:  I think what Mr. Goldie wants is when was this map  13 drafted.  14 MR. GOLDIE:  Yes.  15 MR. RUSH:  I don't think Mr. Sterritt can answer that.  16 THE WITNESS:  No, I can't.  17 MR. GOLDIE:  But the time that he was away and Mr. George was  18 deprived of his assistance, I take it was 1985; is  19 that what the --  2 0 MR. RUSH:  21 Q   No, excuse me.  22 All right, if this -- you've given evidence  23 earlier, Mr. Sterritt, about having been involved in a  24 constitutional process, and that took you away from  25 the Hazelton area?  26 A   Yes.  27 Q   And over what number of years were you involved in  28 that process?  29 A   From shortly after I became president in 1981, through  30 until 1985, but very intensely between 1983 -- well,  31 actually 1982 and 1984, and to -- for different parts  32 of the year, to a greater extent, during 1985.  33 Q   All right.  And you've earlier given evidence about  34 the fact that your involvement with the constitution  35 had an effect on your research tasks in terms of  36 researching with the hereditary chiefs about the  37 location of their boundaries?  38 A   Yes, I had.  39 Q   All right.  And in terms of -- are you able to say  40 what the intensity of your work was in the period of,  41 let us say 1982 to 1985, with regard to obtaining  42 information about boundaries and so on?  43 MR. GOLDIE:  My Lord, he has given ample evidence on that of a  44 general character.  What we are interested in is  45 Exhibit 417, and if he has no recollection with  46 respect to 417, then I don't think we need a  47 repetition of the general evidence we heard before. 7729  N. Sterritt (For Plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Rush  1 MR. RUSH:  Well, we are just trying to get the date, My Lord.  2 THE COURT:  All right.  Try again.  3 MR. RUSH:  4 Q   Mr. Sterritt, can you determine -- do you know when  5 this map, 417, was drafted?  6 MR. GOLDIE:  That's what we are getting at.  7 A   I couldn't say exactly when this was drafted, no.  8 MR. RUSH:  9 Q   Okay.  And I think you indicated it was sometime  10 before August 9th of '86?  11 A   Yes.  12 Q   All right.  Now, about the map, Mr. Sterritt, in terms  13 of the northern boundary of the Luus territory, could  14 you advise the court about what subsequent information  15 you came -- that came from the hereditary chiefs that  16 allowed you to determine an adjustment in the northern  17 boundary?  18 A   Yes.  In the northern -- particularly the north-  19 eastern boundary, I actually -- I described a lot of  20 that yesterday when I talked about the boundary of  21 Waiget under Wiigyet, that's W-a-i-g-e-t, Wiigyet,  22 W-i-i-g-y-e-t, and also, the boundary of Gwinin Nitxw,  23 G-w-i-n-i-n space N-i-t-x-w.  I believe -- well,  24 that's what I described yesterday, and this -- this  25 entire boundary in this area is affected by those --  26 the description that I gave yesterday.  27 Q   Okay.  Now in terms of the northern portion of the  28 territory on the west side, is there an adjustment  29 that you learned of at that point?  30 A   I guess what I should add on the north-eastern is that  31 it removed a lot of territory and shifted it over to  32 the west, and that it -- when you come down on the  33 north boundary it -- it comes down farther south to  34 near Xsi Duutswit, X-s-i space D-u-u-t-s-w-i-t, before  35 it goes west to the Skeena River.  36 Q   Okay.  And was there other information that you  37 received concerning another territory in that  38 north-westerly area?  39 A   Yes.  I had a passing reference in my earlier notes  40 but I never had anything specific, and I didn't pursue  41 it with Pete Muldoe, and from a couple of other  42 people, that there was some Lax Seel, L-a-x space  43 S-e-e-1, or Frog territory in the -- in that area, but  44 I had never narrowed that down.  When Pete Muldoe  45 described this boundary more accurately, he then  46 described to me the territory of Wii Minosik in that  47 area, and also clarified a territory of Wiigyet, and 7730  N. Sterritt (For Plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Rush  1 that appears as -- both as passing references in my  2 field books and then in detail in my -- the  3 clarification in my loose-leaf notes.  4 Q   When did that occur?  5 A   That would be in 1987.  6 Q   And was that clarification from Mr. Muldoe?  7 A   Yes.  8 Q   Now, in terms of the southern portion of the Luus  9 territory, Mr. Sterritt, were there any adjustments  10 that emerge from your later instructions from the  11 hereditary chiefs?  12 A   Yes.  The boundary at the south -- when you come below  13 Kuldoe, you come down to a creek that's labelled Xsan  14 Hak, X-s-a-n space H-a-k, and the boundary just below  15 Xsan Hak is about a mile.  It's not far below it and  16 it follows the height of land up to a mountain called  17 Andax Aaws, A-n-d-a-x space A-a-w-s, which was better  18 defined for me as well, and resulted in a change  19 there.  And also, a definition of the territory of Wii  20 Eelast, W-i-i space E-e-1-a-s-t, which is below there.  21 Q   Now, the information that you've just described as  22 having received to define that Wii Eelast territory,  23 from whom did that come?  24 A   From Pete Muldoe, from, to a certain extent, Jeff  25 Harris Senior, and I think Albert Tait, but I'm not  26 sure.  27 Q   And you indicated earlier that information you had  28 received from Mr. Muldoe was around 1987?  29 A   Yes.  30 Q   And can you tell us about the information from Mr.  31 Harris and Mr. Tait?  32 A  Well, Mr. Harris, Jeff Harris was in 1987, possibly  33 1988, and Albert Tait, this was on a field trip and  34 some discussions just before he died.  The field trip  35 was in September of 1986.  36 Q   Okay.  Now —  37 MR. GOLDIE:  And he died, when?  38 THE WITNESS:  In — I believe it was January of 1987.  3 9    MR. RUSH:  40 Q   Now, were there any adjustments made on the south-  41 easterly portion of the boundary?  42 A  Well, instead of the jog to the -- when you are going  43 on the eastern boundary, instead of -- on the southern  44 end there, instead of the jog to the left, it goes --  45 the boundary should follow along Shelf Ridge, Lax an  46 Hak, L-a-x space a-n space H-a-k.  47 Q   Okay.  And who would inform you of that change? 7731  N. Sterritt (For Plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Rush  1 A   Pete Muldoe.  2 Q   Thank you.  3 A   Richard Benson.  There may be a reference from Albert  4 Tait as well, but I'm not sure about that one.  5 Q   And in terms of Pete Muldoe and Richard Benson, are  6 you still talking about the period in 1987, latter  7 part of 1987?  8 A   Yes.  9 Q   Okay.  And Albert Tait's information, indeed, would be  10 sometime in early '87 or in '86?  11 A   Or in '86, yes.  12 Q   All right.  Now, any other adjustments that were made  13 to this territorial boundary as a result of the  14 information you subsequently received after August of  15 '86?  16 A   Simply a more accurate location of names.  Apart from  17 the many -- I think that's it, apart from the points  18 that I mentioned yesterday in relation to Gwinin Nitxw  19 and Waiget.  20 Q   Okay.  Now, I just ask you to look at 9-A, Mr.  21 Sterritt.  If you'll leave the witness stand and have  22 a look at 9-A, and again, if you'll just identify the  23 area shown on the map as 9-A that we are talking  24 about.  25 A   The area is Kuldoe is right here, and the area that is  26 on Exhibit 4 —  27 Q   Seventeen?  28 A   417, follows the red line underneath, and then a  29 purple line, and then it goes around and down and back  30 and down the Skeena like so.  The changes are  31 reflected in the solid black line which comes up to --  32 near the Shelf Ridge, along Shelf Ridge, slightly  33 north-east to Dam Similoo, that's D-a-m space  34 S-i-m-i-1-o-o, and then up the creek to the  35 north-east, then down to Tommy Jack Creek, and around  36 to Tommy Jack Mountain, and along towards Xsi  37 Duutswit, X-s-i space D-u-u-t-s-w-i-t, and down.  And  38 the three territories that were identified as a result  39 of these changes were Wii Minosik on the north,  40 Wiigyet on the north and Wii Eelast on the south.  41 Q   And does 9-A, Mr. Sterritt, does that reflect the  42 changes in the boundary description which you've given  43 evidence about?  44 A   Yes.  45 MR. GOLDIE:  My Lord, if I understood the witness' references to  46 the large map which he was describing a minute ago, if  47 I followed him correctly, all of the changes which he 7732  N. Sterritt (For Plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Rush  1 has described took place after Exhibit 5 was filed,  2 that is to say, the changes had taken place in point  3 of time -- his recognition of them and his  4 identification of them have taken place in point of  5 time from May '87 to the present date of 9-A, which is  6 June '88.  That I took from his reference to the large  7 map, if I have it correctly.  8 MR. RUSH:  9 Q   Mr. Sterritt, I would like you to have a look at the  10 map 9-A and map 8 in terms of the internal boundary of  11 Luus, and Mr. Goldie's query is whether there were  12 changes -- the changes that you've indicated occurred  13 after Exhibit 5 for Identification was introduced  14 as -- in court?  15 A   There were -- there was another territory defined by  16 James Morrison and Sam Morrison, the territory of Tsa  17 Bux, T-s-a B-u-x, which I described yesterday, along  18 with the description of Waiget's territory and Gwinin  19 Nitxw's territory, and that was -- that change -- that  20 territory was identified and defined more accurately  21 for me.  Actually, it was a finer definition of where  22 the creeks went, and that was defined by James and  23 Sam.  It could have been subsequent to another change  24 and it would have further reduced this territory, so  25 that may have been an intervening change as well.  2 6 Q   And James and Sam Morrison?  27 A  And actually, I think David Green as well, yes.  28 Q   The question that I -- that flows from that, Mr.  29 Sterritt, is in respect of the changes which did occur  30 after May 20th, 1987, was the information -- was all  31 of the information you had received about those  32 changes, information you had received after that date?  33 A  After which date?  34 Q   May 20th, '87, when Exhibit 5 for Identification -- or  35 overlay map 8 was introduced in court last summer?  36 A   Oh, the information on the area I'm describing was  37 subsequent to, yes, May of '87.  38 Q   But in terms of the change --  39 A   It was since then.  40 Q   Yes, yes.  Changes that I've asked -- that you've  41 given evidence about in court this morning, regarding  42 the changes to the Luus territory, did all those --  43 that information come to you after May 20th of '87?  44 A  All of the changes I've described?  45 Q   In respect of the Luus territory?  46 A   No.  There was information that I received in  47 September of '86, there was -- 7733  N. Sterritt (For Plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Rush  1  THE  COURT  2  3  4  MR.  RUSH:  5  THE  COURT  6  7  8  MR.  GOLDI  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  THE  COURT  19  20  21  MR.  RUSH:  22  23  24  25  26  27  THE  COURT  28  29  30  31  MR.  RUSH:  32  33  34  35  THE  COURT  36  MR.  RUSH:  37  38  THE  COURT  39  MR.  RUSH:  40  41  42  43  THE  COURT  44  45  MR.  RUSH:  46  THE  COURT  47  MR.  RUSH:  Aren't we into a semantical problem, Mr. Rush, as to  the difference between when information came to hand  and when changes were made in maps?  There is a difference, for sure.  I wonder if that's what -- whether that's a  difficulty we'll get into when we try to be as precise  as we are now attempting.  C:  I wasn't trying to get at that.  I had understood  it was merely a question of clarification.  I had been  trying to follow the changes that the witness was  describing with respect to this.  As far as I could  follow it, they were all, of course, reflected on 9-A,  and as far as I could follow, none were reflected on  Exhibit 5, and I just wished to have that  understanding clarified.  I realize that there is a  considerable question beyond that of when the  information came to the witness.  Yes.  I don't know whether Mr. Rush wants to have  that clarified now or whether he wants to leave it to  cross-examination.  Well, I -- I think it is a matter of cross-  examination, but I've been trying to assist my friend  in this regard, because it might help speed things up  in the end.  But I do think Mr. Sterritt has answered  that question, and I don't wish to pursue it any  further at this point.  All right.  Maybe -- perhaps I've missed something.  I have a map here, 9-A, the one that Mr. Sterritt has  been referring to as 9-A, but mine doesn't have all  these black lines on it.  Yes.  Unfortunately the black wouldn't pick up on the  little one, apparently, so what we ended up with,  regrettably, is a map 8 and a map 9-A both with red  boundary lines on it.  I see.  And the black lines are --  The black lines on the large overlay map are the  boundary lines external and internal of map 9-A.  Yes.  And sometimes it's helpful, My Lord, to put a white  piece of paper beneath the first -- the outer overlay,  that would allow you to pick up the difference between  eight and nine.  But are the red lines on my 9-A the same as the  black lines on the large 9-A?  Yes, yes.  All right, thank you.  The red lines of the last overlay. 7734  N. Sterritt (For Plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Rush  1 THE COURT:  Yes, yes.  2 MR. RUSH:  Okay, Mr. Sterritt, I'm going to direct your  3 attention now to Exhibit 418-A.  4 THE REGISTRAR:  418-A, My Lord, is in Pete Muldoe's volume 1 and  5 it's at tab 5.  6 THE COURT:  Sorry, but tab 4 has 418, it's the interrogatory.  7 THE REGISTRAR:  1-A should have a map in the pocket.  8 MR. RUSH:  It's Horetsky, My Lord.  9 Q   This is a map that's one of two parts attached to the  10 interrogatory responses of Wiigyet, W-I-I-G-Y-E-T,  11 Lloyd Morrison, August 4th, '86, on a map marked  12 "Draft Copy", Exhibit 418-A.  Can you recognize this  13 depiction of the territory that's located here?  14 A   Yes, I can.  15 Q   And this, I understand, is Mount Horetsky?  16 A   Yes.  17 Q   Okay.  The information that you obtained from  18 hereditary chiefs was passed on to Marvin George  19 regarding this, and can you tell us who it was that  20 you obtained the information from?  21 A   I don't think I could name all the people who told me  22 about this mountain, but the main ones were Robert  23 Jackson Senior, David Green.  We conducted a field  24 trip and landed on that mountain in 1983.  25 Q   With David Green?  26 A  And Robert Jackson Senior, yes.  2 7 Q   Um-hmm.  28 A   Certainly many, many people have referred to this  29 mountain.  Pete Muldoe, David Gunanoot, Joshua McLean,  30 Sam and James Morrison, and in any event, many of them  31 have referred to it and I think it would appear from  32 time to time in my notes, just spread across the  33 years.  34 Q   All right.  Now, this is -- is this a territory about  35 which you received some subsequent information that  36 led you to conclude there was an adjustment in this  37 boundary?  38 A  Well, it was -- everyone who has referred to this has  39 referred to the fact that it is just the mountain as  40 it breaks from the level area that's there, and any  41 adjustments were adjustments made by Marvin and myself  42 in terms of better contours.  And basically, it  43 follows the approximately 3500 foot contour, and that  44 would only be reflected in terms of better maps, but  45 there is no major adjustment in that one.  46 Q   All right.  I just wonder if you can look to map 9-A,  47 please, and just ask you if that reflects the 7735  N. Sterritt (For Plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Rush  1 information that you received and gave evidence about?  2 A   Yes, it does.  Map 9-A shows a line that would follow  3 the contour more accurately than the underlying maps.  4 Q   All right.  5 THE COURT:  I take it that what's shown on 9-A is somewhat less  6 than what's shown on 14-A?  7 THE WITNESS:  Yes, yes.  It would follow the contour more  8 accurately.  9 MR. RUSH:  10 Q   Your evidence is that map 9-A is a more accurate  11 mapping of the contours of the territory?  12 A   Yes.  13 MR. GOLDIE:  I'm not sure that that's what the evidence was.  I  14 don't think there is any question about inaccurate  15 mapping of contours.  I thought the witness said, "I  16 selected the 3500 foot contour" -- or he, Mr. George,  17 selected the 3500 foot contour as a better fit, but --  18 MR. RUSH:  He didn't say that at all.  19 MR. GOLDIE:  Well, that's what I have.  2 0 THE COURT:  I thought that's what he said.  21 MR. GOLDIE:  Follow the 3500 foot contour.  22 THE COURT:  You better clear that up.  That's what I took him to  23 say.  24 MR. RUSH:  All right.  25 Mr. Sterritt, the information that you received  26 from the hereditary chiefs, was that information that  27 identified a 35 foot -- 3500 foot contour?  28 MR. GOLDIE:  My Lord, I'm sorry.  The witness stated that all of  29 the evidence that he received was "it's just the  30 mountain".  31 THE COURT:  Yes, that's right, that's what he said.  32 MR. RUSH:  33 Q   All right.  When the chiefs indicated that it was  34 "just the mountain", how was that interpreted by you  35 as -- in terms of a mapping description?  36 A  Well, we had a problem, because the maps went from  37 Imperial to metric, and the metric -- on the metric  38 there is a -- I think it's a 1060 metre contour,  39 thousand and sixty metre elevation contour.  And on  40 these maps -- on this map, you have 3200 foot contour  41 can be seen, and I'm -- I believe that the next one is  42 3500, and I can't tell on this, but the thousand and  43 sixty metre contour is actually the one we followed,  44 and I was simply converting it to -- to Imperial.  45 It's -- that's approximately where the contours break  46 is at about 3500 feet, and that's the contour we  47 followed. 7736  N. Sterritt (For Plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Rush  1 Q   And why -- why was it the contour where -- the point  2 where it broke on the mountain?  3 A   Because it indicated that is where Mount Horetsky --  4 the base of Mount Horetsky.  If you look on the map.  5 Q   All right.  And the changes that were made, if any, in  6 this, what did they reflect?  7 A   Simply the line followed the contour more accurately  8 on the map 9-A than it does on this map.  9 Q   All right.  10 THE COURT:  What's the elevation of the valley surrounding Mount  11 Horetsky?  12 THE WITNESS:  It's generally about 3200, 3300.  It — it dips  13 and weaves in the area because you have the Babine  14 River right there as well, but there is sort of a  15 plain around Mount Horetsky.  16 THE COURT:  Yes.  17 THE WITNESS:  And that would -- where we could distinguish the  18 mountain on the map was at a thousand and sixty  19 foot -- or thousand and sixty metre contour which was  20 almost the same as -- I believe it was the 3500 foot  21 contour originally.  22 MR. RUSH:  Thank you.  You can set that aside, Mr. Sterritt.  23 Now, I would like Exhibit 493 to be placed before  24 Mr. Sterritt.  It's at tab three in the document book  25 of Pete Muldoe.  26 THE REGISTRAR:  Should be in 493 at tab three.  2 7 MR. RUSH:  28 Q   My Lord, this is a draft copy of Schedule B to the  29 interrogatory response of Gitludahl,  30 G-i-t-l-u-d-a-h-1, also known as Peter Muldoe, dated  31 September 23rd, 1986.  And the bottom right-hand  32 corner there is writing "Gitludahl, 1 to 50,000".  Do  33 you recognize this map, Mr. Sterritt?  34 A   Yes, I do.  35 Q   And the information that you obtained from hereditary  36 chiefs and passed on to Marvin George, is that  37 reflected in this map?  38 A   Yes, it is.  39 Q   All right.  And from whom did you receive information  40 about this territory?  41 A   From Moses Morrison, Gitludahl, G-i-t-l-u-d-a-h-1,  42 from Percy Sterritt, from some of them -- the  43 information from Pete Muldoe, Chris Harris, I don't  44 know if I -- I know we talked about it, whether I have  45 notes of Chris that I took or whether it was some of  46 the information that he passed on to me, I don't  47 recall.  I'm talking about the earlier information 7737  N. Sterritt (For Plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Rush  1 that would be reflected in my topographic sheets, and  2 the -- to a certain extent the field books.  That's  3 the main -- there may -- there are probably others, I  4 don't recall who they are at this point.  5 Q   All right.  Now subsequent -- did you receive  6 subsequent information that led you to a conclusion  7 that there was an adjustment on the western boundary  8 as shown on this map?  9 A   Yes.  This is -- the problems that appear on this map  10 are Marvin working with information that I had and  11 doing his best to come up with a boundary, but once  12 again, with a limited amount of my involvement at the  13 time.  The -- and then subsequently coming up with  14 detailed information, much more detailed information  15 from Albert Tait, Pete Muldoe and Jeff Harris.  16 Q   And that subsequent information, is that contained in  17 notes that you have?  18 A   Yes, it is.  Also, I did an interview with my uncle,  19 Moses Morrison.  I would say it was -- it could have  20 been 1984 or 1983, and he provided information, but he  21 was quite elderly at the time and hard of hearing, and  22 I recorded information in my field book that I didn't  23 at the time totally understand.  And on reviewing this  24 information later, Pete Muldoe and Jeff Harris  25 clarified what it was that he was saying for me, and  26 then I understood what the -- how the information  27 related to this territory.  28 Q   The clarification from Pete Muldoe and Jeff Harris,  29 again, is that contained in notes that you made?  30 A  Well, it -- in comparing the information of Jeff and  31 Pete with what I had obtained from my uncle in this  32 interview earlier, told me what he was talking about,  33 yes.  He was very hard to follow, he was elderly at  34 the time, but it made sense -- made some sense later,  35 and that information appears there.  36 Q   What is that?  37 A   For example, he referred to Xsuwii Galitx an Mai,  38 that's X-s-u -- X-s-u-w-i-1 space G-a-1-i-t-x space  39 a-n space M-a-1, and that is a creek that enters the  40 Skeena -- pardon me, the Kispiox River right near the  41 south-east boundary.  It flows east into the Kispiox  42 and it's actually the creek just north of the boundary  43 line, so that he was referring to the markings, the  44 post around this territory.  Jeff and Pete later  45 confirmed that that was the boundary and also  46 identified -- Jeff, in particular, identified exactly  47 where that was and Pete corroborated that. 773?  N. Sterritt (For Plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Rush  1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  12  Q  13  A  14  Q  15  16  17  A  18  19  20  21  22  23  Q  24  A  25  26  27  Q  28  29  30  31  THE COURT  32  MR. RUSH:  33  Q  34  35  36  37  38  A  39  Q  40  41  42  A  43  Q  44  45  46  47  A  The -- then other information that I obtained  also from -- I mentioned Percy Sterritt, identified as  a point on the Kispiox River at the northern end which  was the boundary point, and that place is Andax Aaws,  A-n-d-a-x space A-a-w-s.  It's a sand bar on the  Kispiox, and that clarified that boundary in that  area, and also how it proceeded from there up a creek.  So it was looking more carefully at the  information later, and it's a fairly complex area, and  on reviewing that information I was able to establish  where the boundaries were.  All right.  And update this.  And the information from Pete Muldoe, Percy Sterritt,  what is the relative time frame that you received that  information?  The information where I was really clarifying this was  within the past year, and the -- there is information  that appears from time to time over the years in the  notes, including a -- I took a trip to that area by  vehicle with Percy, and he identified various creeks  for me.  Can you tell us about when that was, Mr. Sterritt?  It was in the winter of possibly 1984, where I  travelled up there with him and kept mileages and so  on, and that appears in my field book.  All right, thank you.  You can set that map aside, Mr.  Sterritt.  Now, Mr. Sterritt,  please, to Exhibit 19.  :  Yes, yes.  I would like you to refer,  My Lord, this is --  Exhibit 19 is a map marked "Draft Copy", it was  introduced during the evidence of Mary Johnson, in May  of 1987.  Mr. Sterritt, have you had an opportunity to  review this map?  Yes, I have.  And is there -- do the boundary lines as depicted on  this map reflect information which you had passed on  to Marvin George?  Yes.  All right.  And was there subsequent information that  you received about the boundary and the territory  which held you to conclude there was an adjustment in  this boundary?  Yes. 7739  N. Sterritt (For Plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Rush  1  Q  2  A  3  Q  4  5  6  A  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  Q  17  18  A  19  Q  20  A  21  Q  22  23  A  24  25  THE COURT  26  A  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  As it's shown on this map?  Yes.  All right. And firstly, I guess the -- can you tell  us from whom you received this information regarding  this map in the first place?  Information from various people.  I'm not even sure  that some of it would appear in my notes.  I guess it  would.  David Gunanoot in the 1970's, I'm not sure  whether that's in my notes, it might be on topo  sheets.  As to the name of Xsu Wii Masxw, X-s-u space  W-i-1 space M-a-s-x-w, from my father, Percy Sterritt,  Albert Tait, many, many people.  And it -- I made a  major assumption.  The assumption, the name of the  creek that is under the northern line you see there is  on the map, as Date Creek, D-a-t-e.  I'm sorry, Date Creek doesn't show on this -- is not  shown on this map?  No.  But it's on --  The name Date Creek doesn't show, right?  No, it does not show.  Okay. Now which are you referring to there as being  Date Creek?  The creek that would be under the name Xsu Wii Masxw,  X-s-u space W-i-1 space M-a-s-x-w.  :  Sorry, X-s-u?  Yes.  W-i-1 space M-a-s-x-w.  Now, I had been in this area a lot, and the road  crosses Date Creek down near the river, and everybody  had identified for me that Date Creek was Xsu Wii  Masxw, and I operated on that assumption for a long  time.  It was -- while listening -- and I had gone  through interviews with Mary Johnson under that  assumption, and it was while listening to the cross-  examination of Mary Johnson in Smithers, I was in the  court and listening, and I realized that there was  something wrong, something wasn't fitting with -- and  I didn't know what it was.  There was just something  didn't seem right in terms of what she was explaining,  because she was saying it correctly, but what she was  saying and what my understanding was.  So I did not  talk to her, I went to my Uncle Percy, and I asked  him, "Can you tell me which way -- or where Xsu Wii  Masxw is?"  And he said, "Yes.  It's Date Creek, but  it turns right when you go farther up Date Creek."  And I confirmed that, I talked to Jeff Harris as well,  and I asked him if he could show me where Xsu Wii  Masxw went.  So if you -- in fact, if you come up Date 7740  N. Sterritt (For Plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Rush  1 Creek.  2 Q   Okay.  Now, just let's -- to assist us here, if we can  3 start at the Kispiox River, where does Date Creek, the  4 creek that's named Date Creek start?  5 A   You see on the map Agwedin Reserve, A-g-w-e-d-i-n, and  6 I'll just show you where Date Creek goes.  Date Creek  7 follows this line all the way up to the mountain tops  8 to its source.  Xsu Wii Masxw is the creek from here  9 on up here.  And the first time that I knew that, was  10 after I went to my uncle and then to -- or to Jeff  11 Harris and then to my uncle, and determined that Mary  12 Johnson was describing her territory right, but I --  13 what I couldn't get straight is what she was trying to  14 say about the mountain when she was on the stand, and  15 it just didn't fit.  So then when I established that  16 in fact the boundary runs up Date -- or Xsu Wii Masxw,  17 to the mountains here, and Wii Maxsw is this mountain  18 in this area, and then everything made sense, I was  19 able to sort that out.  20 So that was a major assumption that I made, and a  21 problem -- I've encountered that kind of a problem  22 before but not to this degree where one creek can have  23 over its length, three different names.  And I was  24 unable to determine what the balance of the name of  25 the creek was, of Date Creek, but I established that  26 Xsu Wii Masxw continued on up to the north-west.  27 Q   All right.  And do you recall about when it was that  28 you had the conversation with Percy Sterritt regarding  29 the positioning of Xsu Wii Masxw?  30 A  Well with Jeff Harris, I went to see him right away  31 that weekend.  I believe that was a Friday, and so on  32 the following Saturday, that would be about June the  33 30th, I went and saw Jeff Harris, and either the same  34 day or within a very short period of time I saw -- I  35 went and asked Percy as well, my uncle, Percy  36 Sterritt.  37 MR. GOLDIE:  Are there notes?  38 THE WITNESS:  Oh yes, there are notes on that, and they would  39 have the dates on them.  4 0 THE COURT:  Convenient to adjourn, Mr. Rush?  41 MR. RUSH:  Yes.  42 THE COURT:  Okay.  43 THE REGISTRAR:  Order in court.  Court will recess.  44  45 (PROCEEDINGS ADJOURNED AT 11:15 a.m.)  46  47 7741  N. Sterritt (For Plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Rush  1  2 I hereby certify the foregoing to be  3 a true and accurate transcript of the  4 proceedings herein transcribed to the  5 best of my skill and ability.  6  7  8  9    10 Toni Kerekes,  11 O.R., R.P.R.  12 United Reporting Services Ltd.  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47 7742  N. Sterritt (For Plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Rush  1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  (PROCEEDINGS RESUMED AT 11:30)  THE REGISTRAR  THE COURT  MR. RUSH:  THE COURT  MR. RUSH:  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  A  Q  A  Q  A  Order in court.  :  Mr. Rush.  Set that map aside now, Mr. Sterritt, for the time  being.  Would you place Exhibit 21 before Mr.  Sterritt, please.  My Lord, this is a map of the  northern territory of Antgulilbix.  It's marked "Draft  copy".  :  Yes, right, thank you.  Exhibit 21 referred to in the testimony of Mary  Johnson.  Do you recognize this map, Mr. Sterritt?  Yes, I do.  And was information given to you concerning the  boundary that's shown here?  Yes.  And from whom?  From Albert Tait, Pete Muldoe, Richard Benson, Mary  Johnson -- I think the Mary Johnson and Stanley  Williams information was later, I can't quite put that  in sequence, but Albert Tait, Pete Muldoe, there would  be earlier information on that.  Earlier in what time frame, please?  I think those notes might go back to 1982 or so.  It  would be in my field book.  All right.  And subsequent to that period in '82 did  you receive further information that brought about a  change in this description of the boundary on this  map?  Yes.  There are minor changes, but it's based on more  detailed information.  Mary Johnson and Pete Muldoe  both identified a waterfall at the north end of Dam  Lax Tsinaast, that's D-a-m space L-a-x space  T-s-i-n-a-a-s-t.  It doesn't appear here, but on a  topographic map it would appear as Williams Lake.  Williams Lake is not shown here, is not here?  That name isn't there, the lake is.  It's the lake at  Dam Lax Tsinaast, it's the same lake.  Yes?  Now, there's a creek at the north end of that that  flows out of another lake just to the north-west of  there.  There's a waterfall in that area, and that is  the boundary, so instead of following the height of  land, which was an extrapolation of mine, the  continuation of the height of land, in fact it  departed there and went to the waterfall and on 7743  N. Sterritt (For Plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Rush  1  2  3  4  5  Q  6  7  A  8  9  10  THE COURT  11  A  12  MR. RUSH:  13  Q  14  15  A  16  Q  17  A  18  Q  19  A  20  21  Q  22  A  23  24  25  26  27  28  Q  29  30  31  32  A  33  34  35  36  37  38  Q  39  A  40  41  42  43  44  Q  45  A  46  Q  47  A  through and back to the height of land south, slightly  south-west of there.  So it was a small exclusion from  that, and it was based on more information, but both  Mary and Pete Muldoe identified that.  All right.  And is there any other adjustment that  resulted from further information you have received?  The other area is at -- on the eastern boundary, you  see a creek name there, it says Xsagan Gaksda.  It's  X-s-a-g-a-n space G-a-k-s-d-a.  :  Sorry, X-s-a --  X-s-a-g-a-n space G-a-k-s-d-a, Xsagan Gaksda.  That seems to be outside of the black-marked boundary  line?  Yes.  To the right?  Yes.  Yes?  This is on the map, on the topographic map, is Kuldo  Creek, K-u-1-d-o.  Yes?  And in fact, Kuldo Creek has two names over its  length, and this area, the creek that comes out of  this lake and goes east is called Xsi Ansa Angwas,  X-s-i space A-n-s-a space A-n-g-w-a-s, and the name of  that lake is Dam Ansa Angwas, D-a-m space A-n-s-a  space A-n-g-w-a-s.  That lake that you're referring to, it appears there  is an indication of a lake at the head of what appears  on this map as Xsagan Gaksda; is that the lake you're  talking about?  Yes.  And Richard Benson described to me that the  boundary went through the middle of that lake and that  there were two trees on either side of that lake that  were marked as indicating that the boundary went  through the centre of that lake.  When I say centre,  went north-south through that lake.  Yes?  And so that boundary would be changed there, but also  it was described to me by Pete Muldoe that the  boundary, once it went through the lake, went down the  creek that is called Xsu Wii Loobt, X-s-u space W-i-i  space L-o-o-b-t.  That is the --  That's moving from the north to a southerly direction?  Yes.  Yes?  And that is on the map as East Kispiox River, not on 7744  N. Sterritt (For Plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Rush  1 this map, but on a topographic map, and that the  2 boundary should run down there.  So that is an  3 adjustment between -- that is brought through by more  4 detailed information from Richard Benson and Pete  5 Muldoe.  6 Q   Did you make notes of those?  7 A   Yes, I did.  8 Q   Of those discussions?  9 A   Yes.  10 Q   About what time can you say it was that you made those  11 notes?  12 A  Well, the first reference that I would have made to  13 that lake would have, I think, appeared in my field  14 books, not necessarily in my notes, but it would have  15 been information that didn't necessarily get to Marvin  16 at the time of this, even though it might have been --  17 might have predated this map.  18 Q   Just pause there.  The first reference in the field  19 books would be about when?  20 A   Perhaps 1985.  I can't pin that right down, but he  21 named that lake for me, and then either then or later  22 when I was going into more detail I asked him about  23 this area, and he described the boundary crossing it,  24 and that I think would appear in my later handwritten  25 notes.  2 6 Q   And what date would you put to that?  27 A   Sometime in 1987, I think.  28 Q   All right, thank you.  Now, as you look at the map,  29 were there any other adjustments that you became aware  30 of in the boundary of this territory as a result of  31 subsequent information you received about the details?  32 A  Well, further detail that I would have received is  33 about a creek called Xsi Mootixswit, X-s-i space  34 M-o-o-t-i-x-s-w-i-t, and that is in the tip down in  35 the southern border, and as I recall, the boundary  36 doesn't change all that much there, but there is a  37 creek that flows in there.  I think that the boundary  38 basically stays the same, it varies very little, and  39 it simply is that a creek is identified in that area  40 as being a point where the boundary meets the Kispiox  41 River.  42 Q   And that is a name that came to you subsequently to  43 this map having been drawn in this way?  44 A   I might have had the map earlier but I didn't have the  45 exact location or a description that identified  46 exactly where it was, and I think it was Albert Tait  47 that described that for me, Albert Tait and then 7745  N. Sterritt (For Plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Rush  1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  subsequently Pete Muldoe.  Richard Benson may have  subsequently as well, but that was the boundary point.  Q   All right.  And —  A   Detail.  Q   And the name of that creek was Xsi Mootixswit?  A   Yes.  X-s-i space M-o-o-t-x-s-w-i-t.  MR. RUSH:  Thank you, Mr. Sterritt, you can set that aside.  My  Lord, I'm next going to refer Mr. Sterritt to a map  that was introduced as an exhibit during the  cross-examination of Neil B. Sterritt, that is Neil  Sterritt, Sr., during the course of the  cross-examination on his affidavit, and the map is in  that examination, map or Exhibit number 10B, and what  I would propose to do at this juncture is to ask you  to reserve the numbers, reserve numbers on our exhibit  list for the entry of exhibits of Neil B. Sterritt's  cross-examination.  THE COURT:  How many numbers do we need?  MR. RUSH:  Yes.  Mr. Grant suggests, and this may be as a result  of his discussions with counsel, other counsel, that  the exhibits in the cross-examination be exhibits  following the numbered exhibit of the affidavit, so in  this case the affidavit of Neil B. Sterritt was  Exhibit 601, and what we're proposing to do is that  the exhibits range from 601-A through to 601-N, and an  exhibit list has been prepared, and I think in due  course that exhibit list, together with the exhibits,  will be entered as exhibits, and this particular  exhibit will be exhibit 601-L, and that will be  Exhibit 10B, that is to say the map that was  introduced during the course of the cross-examination.  THE COURT:  All right.  Is there any difficulty with that?  THE REGISTRAR:  No, no, that's fine.  THE COURT:  All right, all right.  This map then, which was 10B  on your cross-examination of Mr. Sterritt, Sr., may be  601-L, and we will reserve now 601-A to 601-N for the  other exhibits on that cross-examination.  EXHIBIT 601-L - Exhibit 10B on cross-examination  of Neil Sterritt, Sr.  MR. RUSH:  I have -- my Lord, my friends have provided me with a  copy that was marked at the examination.  I'll just  hand that to you now.  THE COURT:  All right.  You want this before the witness, do  you, Mr. Rush?  MR. RUSH:  Yes. 7746  N. Sterritt (For Plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Rush  1 THE COURT:  All right, thank you.  2 MR. GOLDIE:  Well, if the evidence is to make any sense to your  3 Lordship you should have our copy.  4 THE COURT:  All right, thank you.  5 THE REGISTRAR: 601-L.  6 MR. RUSH:  7 Q   This map is labelled as part 1 of two parts to  8 schedule C of the interrogatories of Wii Gaak, W-i-i  9 G-a-a-k, also known as Neil Sterritt, Sr., dated  10 January 28th, 1987.  This is now Exhibit 601-L, Mr.  11 Sterritt.  Do you recognize this map?  12 A   Yes, I do.  13 Q   And was this prepared by Marvin George on information  14 that you passed to him which you had received from  15 hereditary chiefs?  16 A   Yes, it was.  17 Q   And can you tell us who provided you with that  18 information and what time frame was it that you got  19 that information?  20 A   This reflects information that I had received from --  21 partly from Arthur Samson.  22 Q   Yes?  23 A   His name was Smaex, S-m-a-e-x, and that would be --  24 that would go back to 19 -- it could be about 1976,  25 '77, and I think it is either in the scribbler notes  26 or in -- or in pages that were separated from that  27 scribbler under his name.  It would appear in  28 loose-leaf notes under his name.  29 Q   Yes?  30 A   It's information that -- this map reflects  31 extrapolations that I've made, it's information from  32 Thomas Wright, Henry Wright, from my father, and there  33 is -- there is more detailed information that I  34 received later that -- also from the field trip that  35 we took in 1986, which is prior to this but is not  36 reflected on this map.  37 Q   That was a field trip that you took with whom?  38 A   No, that would have been 1985.  It was -- we went to  39 Bear Lake, I think it's 1985, it's helicopter  40 reconnaissance.  41 Q   There is indicated in your summary a helicopter flight  42 dated July 16th, 1985, in which you went to Bear Lake  43 with David Green, William Charlie, Edward John, David  44 Gunanoot and Neil B. Sterritt, and then to Mosque  45 Mountain and Bear Lake, and then east of Sciata(?)  46 Creek.  Is that the field trip you're referring to?  47 A   That's the field trip.  And I — a lot of the 7747  N. Sterritt (For Plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Rush  1  2  3  4  Q  5  6  7  A  8  9  10  11  Q  12  13  14  15  A  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  Q  23  24  A  25  Q  26  A  27  28  29  30  Q  31  A  32  33  34  35  36  Q  37  A  38  39  40  41  42  43  MR. RUSH:  44  THE COURT  45  MR. RUSH:  46  47  information that I've gathered on that trip is not  reflected on this map, it's the state of the  information that Marvin was working with.  All right.  Mr. Sterritt, I wonder if you would just  step down from the witness stand and just show us  where this area is located on Exhibit overlay 9A?  Bear Lake is right here, and the Skeena runs right  along here, and the territory that I'm talking about  is this one right here, just north of Bear Lake about  2 0 mi1e s.  All right.  Now, did you subsequently become aware of  information from hereditary chiefs that led you to  conclude that this boundary as shown here is not  accurate?  Yes.  There was, as I say, the field trip which  determined that for part of that boundary, and then  also discussions that I mentioned yesterday with James  Morrison and James Angus, Sr. where we referred to  another creek at the head of the Mosque River  M-o-s-q-u-e, known as Xsi Luu Wagooxst, X-s-i space  L-u-u space W-a-g-o-o-x-s-t.  That's that northern hump, if I can put it that way,  that's shown on this map?  It is.  The north-easterly area, is that right?  Instead of jogging to the north when you -- as you run  east, you carry onto the right -- to the east.  There's a tributary there, and that's Xsi Luu  Wagooxst.  Yes?  And then there is in that area Wisan Skit.  It  actually goes to there, but it comes off Wisan Skit  different than that.  Wisan Skit is spelled W-i-s  space A-n-s-k-i-t -- I should turn that around,  W-i-s-a-n space S-k-i-t.  Thank you.  And the boundary should come down Bird Flat Creek,  which is on the map here as Xsu Wii Lax Amaawx, which  is X-s-u space W-i-i space L-a-x space A-m-a-a-w-x.  That's the creek to the left of the eastern boundary.  You can see a main creek running up from the south.  It parallels the eastern boundary almost.  Does your Lordship have that?  :  I think so.  There's a feature identified in the bottom boundary  line called Gap Ganeexs, and just above that is the  creek.  You can see the names running in a 7748  N. Sterritt (For Plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Rush  1  2  THE  COURT  3  4  A  5  6  THE  COURT  7  A  8  THE  COURT  9  A  10  11  12  THE  COURT  13  A  14  THE  COURT  15  MR.  RUSH:  16  Q  17  18  19  A  20  Q  21  A  22  23  24  Q  25  A  26  27  Q  28  A  29  30  Q  31  32  A  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  Q  43  A  44  Q  45  46  A  47  MR.  RUSH:  north-southerly direction.  :  Is that the creek that comes in on the map from  about a third of the way up the arrow?  No.  It's on the left side of the eastern boundary,  the west side of the eastern boundary.  :  Let's see.  This is the creek right here, it goes all the way up.  :  Oh, all right.  That's Bird Flat Creek, and it comes into the Sustut  River at Gap Ganeexs, G-a-p space G-a-n-e-e-x-s, which  is the place that Mr. Rush referred to a minute ago.  :  Can I have that spelling again, please  G-a-p G-a-n-e-e-x-s.  It comes in right in that area.  :  Oh, yes, I see.  Now Mr. Sterritt, regarding that adjustment in the  boundary, who provided you with information regarding  that?  That was information from the trip in 1985.  Yes?  And -- and I think that's the -- from that, and I  can't think of when else, but there is subsequent  information to that as well.  And what was that?  Well, simply that the detail of how the map or how the  boundary got to Wisan Skit in the north end.  And who was that?  Abel Samson described that, and that would be in the  past -- in the past six months.  All right.  Any further information from hereditary  chiefs?  Well, I discussed it yesterday, but when the Bird Flat  Creek comes to the Sustut River it -- the boundary  then runs west down the Sustut River for about three  miles, and then there's a creek that comes that flows  north-west into the Sustut River called Axsim Lax  Anxsan, spelled A-x-s-i-m space L-a-x space  A-n-x-s-a-n, and it flows through the Y and the A of  Nii Kyap.  You can see the name Nii Kyap, N-i-i space  K-y-a-p, that creek flows through the Y and the A  there and goes to the Sustut River.  You mentioned that in your testimony yesterday?  I mentioned that yesterday, yes.  In dealing with the southern portions of Wii Gaak's  territory?  Yes.  Mr. Sterritt, I wonder if you would just go to the 7749  N. Sterritt (For Plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Rush  1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  overlay for a moment --  MR. GOLDIE:  Excuse me.  Before he does that, can you tell us if  the Abel Samson information is in notes?  MR. RUSH:  I think you did that already, did you not?  MR. GOLDIE: I didn't get it.  I thought he said the past six  months, but I didn't get a note at the end of the  thing.  A   To the best of my knowledge, the Abel Samson  information should be in my loose-leaf notes.  MR.  RUSH:  Q  Looking at the overlay map, particularly in respect of  the eastern boundary that you've just identified, can  you determine by looking at the map 9A and map 8  whether or not the changes that you have described are  reflected on both of those maps?  A   Yes, they are.  They appear in this area, and the red  line behind is map 8, and down Bird Flat Creek here.  It -- I think that one of the changes is reflected  between map 4 and map -- and that map, that appears  there because it's -- the red line follows down here.  There was a change between map 4 and map 8 and map 8  and map 9A.  That change had already been picked up on  Bird Flat Creek.  Q   All right.  So that the change at Bird Flat Creek  appears on map 8?  A   Yes.  Now, I should also mention that I'm not positive  about a note with Abel Samson on this area.  It may  have occurred partly while we were doing the  affidavit, but there may be a note in loose-leaf notes  on that.  The other thing I want to mention is that  there is a drafting error that Marvin George will  probably speak to above this line right in this area,  and that's all I can say about that for now.  It's a  minor -- simply, it's a minor adjustment.  The  affidavit's description is slightly different from  that line, and that's a drafting error.  MR. RUSH:  All right, I'll leave that to Mr. George to talk  about.  MR. GOLDIE:  My Lord, before my friend goes on, I understood the  witness to tell us yesterday of changes in the  northern boundary of Wii Gaak's territory and changes  in the western boundary or the boundary that is common  with Gwinin Nitxw and Tsabux which took -- appears  from my information to have taken place between the  date of map 8, namely May the 2nd, 1987 and map 9A,  which is June 28th.  I thought he gave a blanket  answer to all of the changes that he's described are 7750  N. Sterritt (For Plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Rush  1  2  3  4  5  6  7  MR. RUSH:  8  Q  9  10  11  12  A  13  Q  14  15  A  16  Q  17  18  A  19  Q  20  21  22  A  23  24  25  26  27  28  Q  29  30  31  A  32  MR. RUSH:  33  34  35  THE COURT  36  MR. RUSH:  37  Q  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  A  reflected in both maps, but the overlays that we have  show changes as taking place in June 8th -- June the  28th map from the boundaries outlined in the -- in  that of May 2nd, and I thought those changes were  those which he described yesterday, but I bring that  to my friend's attention.  Mr. Sterritt was discussing the southern boundary of  Wii Gaak yesterday.  That would be the portion that is  south of the Sustut River, is that correct, Mr.  Sterritt?  Yes.  And now this map deals with the area north of the  Sustut River?  That's right.  And these are two territories of Wii Gaak, is that  correct?  Yes.  I notice on over -- map overlay -- well, both 8 and 9A  that there isn't a line distinguishing between the  north and the south portions along the Sustut River?  No, there isn't, but the members of the House of Wii  Gaak consider the Sustut River, which flows east to  west, as being the dividing line between the northern  territory at what they call Xsu Wii Ax, X-s-u space  W-i-i space A-x, and the southern territory, which has  three names to it.  And that distinction was represented in the  interrogatory map but it is not shown on map 9A as a  boundary distinction?  That's right.  All right.  Thank you, Mr. Sterritt, you can put that  map aside.  Now, would you please place Exhibit 435  before Mr. Sterritt.  This is a map attached to that.  :  That's in the white book of Vernon Smith, tab 5.  That should be a map identified as Giil'awa,  G-i-i-1-'-a-w-a.  This map is labelled as schedule C  and then labelled again schedule C to the  interrogatories, response of Giil'awa G-i-i-1 --  G-i-i-1-'-a-w-a, also known as Peter Turley dated  02/07/87, marked as a draft copy, and there's writing  at the bottom of the map.  Now, Mr. Sterritt, do you  recognize the boundary and the territory that's  contained within that boundary, the heavy black line  that's shown on this map?  Yes, I do. 7751  N. Sterritt (For Plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Rush  1 MR. RUSH:  And this is -- was this boundary drawn on information  2 that you had received from a hereditary chief?  3 THE COURT:  It's tab 5 in the book of Vernon Smith.  4 MR. GOLDIE:  I took down the number of the exhibit incorrectly  5 yesterday afternoon, my Lord.  I put down 438 instead  6 of 435, but that's —  7 MR. RUSH:  Well, there is a 438 and a 435 and a 436.  Maybe I'll  8 just give you these now, if there's any problem, it's  9 435 — in this sequence; 435, 436, 438, 446-9, that's  10 dash 9, and 661-GH9.  Dealing with 435, Mr. Sterritt,  11 you provided to Mr. George information you had  12 received from hereditary chiefs about this area?  13 A   Yes, I did.  14 Q   And from whom did you receive that information, and  15 could you tell his Lordship about when the time frame  16 was that you had obtained that information?  17 A   I received information from primarily Stanley  18 Williams, and that was either 1979 or 1980.  That  19 would appear in my field book for that period.  20 Q   Yes?  21 A  And then further information following that, which  22 would also appear in subsequent field books.  23 Q   From Stanley Williams?  24 A   Yes.  25 Q   Yes?  26 A   I also had --  27 Q   And subsequent to '80 what time frame?  28 A  Well —  29 Q   As best as you can recall?  30 A   1982, 1983.  31 Q   All right.  32 A   I also had some discussions with other people, Willis  33 Morgan, in particular, but I don't think I have any  34 notes from him on that, but he talked about Eagle  35 territories in this area.  There may be something on a  36 topo sheet, but I'm not sure.  37 Q   This is an Eagle territory?  38 A   Oh, yes, this is an Eagle territory.  And possibly Joe  39 Daniels, I know I discussed some parts of this with  40 him, and that will appear in one of my field books.  41 Q   Date approximately?  42 A   1983, 1984.  43 Q   Thank you.  44 A   I did a helicopter flight up the Skeena past here with  45 David Milton and Ernie Hyzims, H-y-z-i-m-s, and came  46 around and then back and down the south end of it in  47 1983, summer of 1983. 7752  N. Sterritt (For Plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Rush  1 Q   There was a helicopter field trip indicated in your  2 summary as having occurred in that area with the  3 people you've mentioned on August the 24th, 1983.  4 Would that be about right?  5 A   Yes.  Those notes appear in one of my field books.  6 Q   Thank you.  7 A  As well as pictures.  I should mention that wherever  8 there's field notes or a field trip like that, I  9 ordinarily take still photographs.  10 Q   And are those the still photographs that were entered  11 as exhibits in the proceedings in the photographic  12 volumes 1 to 5?  13 A   Yes.  14 Q   Any other information, Mr. Sterritt, that you were  15 provided that was used as the basis for this  16 representation?  17 A  Well, I had a discussion with -- I don't remember  18 his -- it was either Ivan or Edgar Good and Stanley  19 Williams in, oh, could be 1984.  That appears in my  20 field book.  I had a discussion I think in 1985 or '86  21 with -- gee, I can't remember his name, I will have to  22 try and think of it.  23 Q   All right.  24 A  Which would appear in my field book as well.  I may  25 remember it -- oh, Bright, Leonard Bright.  And I  26 think in terms of Stanley Williams, I'm constantly  27 talking to Stanley and he's providing me with  28 information, so it could be anywhere through my field  29 books that information on this comes up or on -- yeah,  30 this territory or related territories.  31 Q   Now, as I look at this map, Mr. Sterritt, just the  32 site of this area seems to be across from Kitwanga  33 across the Skeena?  34 A   It is.  It's directly south of Kitwanga.  35 Q   And after this map was prepared was there information  36 that you received from hereditary chiefs which led to  37 an adjustment in this boundary description?  38 A   Yes, there was.  39 Q   Can you tell us where that information affected the  40 description of boundary?  41 A  Well, what I would like to point out is that this  42 represents incomplete information as well as  43 extrapolation on my part as a result of several Eagle  44 territories that are not connected.  In other words, I  45 connected a number of points based on incomplete  46 information, and subsequently sat down and went  47 through in much more detail with Stanley Williams and 7753  N. Sterritt (For Plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Rush  1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  A  THE COURT  A  MR. RUSH:  Q  A  Q  A  THE COURT  A  MR. RUSH:  Q  A  David Milton separately, not together, to determine  the more precise boundaries, as well as both to add  territory in some parts of the boundary and to  eliminate territory in other parts of the boundary.  Now, in terms of extrapolations that you made,  where -- or can you point out on this map where that  occurs?  Well, you see the name Hana Muxw in the middle of the  map, H-a-n-a space M-u-x-w?  The boundary runs along  to the left of the name and then along on top of the  name.  The boundary in that area should continue on  almost north in a north-west direction towards the  Skeena.  That area within is not Eagle territory, and  then there is an Eagle territory down on the Skeena,  not up on the mountain.  And that's one area.  And the  other information I received is on the southern  boundary.  :  I'm sorry, I haven't fully grasped what you're  saying?  Well —  Maybe just can you review how you made the  extrapolation?  There is an Eagle territory here, and Eagle territory  here and none in between, and I extrapolated because I  had information all along here from here down to here,  and what I later learned, and I have all of the  detail, there's tremendous detail from the mouth of  Price Creek all the way around down well into here,  back up around --  You're showing us the bottom of the map here?  The southernly, which goes right into another drainage  and then back and then across at an angle, down to the  Skeena like this, and then another territory in here,  and --  :  So the boundary should run --  Right along the height of land here to a point there  and down to the Skeena, and this one should come out  this way like this all the way here, and then it  should go south down here.  All right.  I can -- well, I could identify those features,  but that's the main difference.  Now, the other Eagle territory that you said was on  the Skeena, is that located along the -- parallel and  along the bank of the Skeena? 7754  N. Sterritt (For Plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Rush  1 A   Yes.  2 Q   All right.  3 A   It follows a creek as well, which is not located.  4 This name -- there's a creek named Xsaga Sagiibw't,  5 X-s-a-g-a space S-a-g-i-i-b-w-'-t.  Xsaga Sagiibw't is  6 the creek under this line and joins with creek  7 Shandilla on the map, S-h-a-n-d-i-1-l-a, and the area  8 of the Eagle territory here comes up and along Xsaga  9 Sagiibw't and then down to a point opposite Xsuwii Luu  10 Hlabit, and that's a creek on the opposite side,  11 spelled X-s-u-w-i-i space L-u-u space H-1-a-b-i-t.  12 Q   And on map 9A that's indicated as Saxum Hiigookx?  13 A   Yes.  14 Q   That's an Eagle chief?  15 A   Yes.  16 Q   And the area that's indicated as Gasgabaxs,  17 G-a-s-g-a-b-a-x-s, on this map, that is Exhibit 435,  18 is there a territory in that area of Gasgabaxs,  19 although not depicted as it's shown on this map, that  20 you subsequently learned about through your  21 instructions from hereditary chiefs?  22 A   Yes.  There would be some minor modifications on that  23 and an extension to come to the height of land, but  24 basically yes, there is a Gasgabaxs territory there,  25 and that representation is not entirely accurate  26 there.  27 Q   All right.  Now, the more recent information about the  28 Gasgabaxs territory, can you tell us from whom you  29 received that information?  30 A   From -- once again from Stanley Williams.  31 Q   Yes?  32 A   This is a matter of sitting down with Stanley and  33 reviewing what he was telling me in much more detail,  34 and he is one of the people.  35 Q   When did that review occur, if you can time date it?  36 A   Beginning in 1987, and I can't say exactly when during  37 1987, but during 1987.  Yeah.  It would have been in  38 that period primarily.  39 Q   All right.  40 A   There could have been some notes in 1986 too, I don't  41 recall, I would have to check.  42 MR. RUSH:  Okay.  And in terms —  43 MR. GOLDIE:  My Lord, I think I should say that — that the job  44 of leaving it to us to check these dates when the time  45 given is so broad as to be 1987 ought not to be left  46 to us, and I say that because we've had additional  47 documents delivered to us this morning, I don't know 7755  1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  N. Sterritt (For Plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Rush  Discussion  how many pages they are.  My friend is -- was troubled  by the fact that by an oversight they weren't included  in what we were -- what was sent to us in September  2nd and September 7th, but nevertheless we now have an  additional body of documents, and I don't think if  we're going to get on with this thing it should be  left to us to go out of the courtroom and chase it  down and in the rather vague road sign that we're  being given.  If Mr. Sterritt says "I will have to  check", I think he ought to, with all respect, do so,  because he is the one most familiar with these  documents, and it's going to facilitate us very  greatly, and as your Lordship knows, I'm -- I'm very  much concerned about how we can cope with these facts  which are coming in on us as late as this morning,  that obviously the witness relies upon, as he puts  it -- he sat down with Stanley Williams many times and  reviewed what he told them in detail, and I think,  with all respect, my friend ought to have these  documents sitting in front of him and say where,  please give us the date rather than in 1987, which is  very broad, and Williams has been pointed out,  Williams' name turns up time and time again.  It's not  an easy task to run it down.  MR. RUSH:  I think that it's evident throughout Mr. Sterritt's  testimony this morning that Mr. Sterritt is trying to  identify as precisely as he can the year, the time and  the year of the point.  We have certain reference  points and we're trying to establish with as great as  precision as we can when the notes were taken, and I  intend to try to lead from Mr. Sterritt with the  greatest precision I can, and I accept my friend's  statement that where Mr. Sterritt is vague that we  should try to clarify that more specifically, and I  will certainly direct my attention to that.  I felt  that we were providing the information that would lead  to the sources now fully in Mr. Goldie's and my  learned friends, Miss Koenigsberg's, hands as best we  can, and as -- as most precisely as we can, so I think  I will endeavour to lead Mr. Sterritt to the more  exact places for these notes so it will make it easier  for my friend to find them.  THE COURT:  Well, there is a number of problems arising out of  what has just happened.  It seems to me that it would  be helpful in the extreme if upon reviewing the  transcript of the evidence from the last few days -- I  think in the beginning of these matters there are 7756  Discussion  1 references to where evidence may be found or  2 references to the fact that evidence may be found  3 somewhere, there upon that transcript being reviewed,  4 a list being taken of those items that are mentioned,  5 and an attempt made to have them identified.  But I  6 don't think I can order counsel to do that, nor do I  7 think I can order counsel to lead the evidence in the  8 way Mr. Goldie has described, no matter how useful and  9 how helpful that might be.  The alternative, of  10 course, is to -- is in cross-examination for Mr.  11 Goldie to ask the witness to find the reference to  12 that in his notes, which would cause unbearable delay,  13 and it seems to me that it is highly desirable that  14 some accommodation be reached.  I don't quite know  15 what the proper solution of the problem is, but is the  16 solution not assisted by the fact that transcript is  17 being received, I assume it's being reviewed on a  18 regular basis to keep up to date, and can some work in  19 this connection not be done and those given to your  20 friend when references are found?  21 MR. RUSH:  Well, yes.  That can all be done, my Lord, but we may  22 be doing --  23 THE COURT:  Would it not be done anyway?  24 MR. RUSH:  Pardon me?  25 THE COURT:  Would it not be done anyway?  26 MR. RUSH:  In due course, of course in --  2 7 THE COURT:  Yes.  28 MR. RUSH:  Sometime in the future it's going to be done, but  29 we're talking about a very substantial task.  3 0 THE COURT:  Yes.  31 MR. RUSH:  Involving a great deal of time, and involving really  32 the knowledge of Mr. Sterritt, and our solution to  33 deal with the ready access to the material which is  34 referenced by informant and by date, and we're not  35 talking about large numbers of dates throughout, for  36 example 1987, we may in the case of some of the  37 informants be talking about one or two, and admittedly  38 in the case like someone like Stanley Williams, many,  39 it may be up to ten, and the information may be  40 located in more than one place other than just the  41 loose-leaf notes.  But my friends, I know, have  42 indexed, for example, the field books by informant  43 name and by date, and the information is -- by that  44 index they would readily have accessible to them the  45 time date and the informant, and in my submission, my  46 Lord, we're talking about an information really that  47 has been a good part of it is accessible to my 7757  Discussion  1 friends, and that part I'm not so concerned about is  2 the more recent information, which I do see is  3 problematic in terms of their finding the information  4 as readily as we can find it, but what my solution has  5 been, until now I thought acceptable to my learned  6 friend, and I'm not sure that it's still not  7 acceptable to my learned friend, has been to try to  8 focus in on the period of time, the period within a  9 year, and the informant and the information of the  10 loose-leaf notes, as I say, is organized in that  11 manner in that my friend could be quickly led to the  12 information where Mr. Sterritt makes reference to it.  13 I concede, however, here that there is a problem where  14 Mr. Sterritt says I'm not sure if it's in that period  15 or not, and it's that level of specificity I'm willing  16 to try to elicit for my learned friend.  I don't think  17 that there is a remedy now in our going back to all of  18 the loose-leaf notes and to try to connect through Mr.  19 Sterritt's instructions the changes with the  20 informants where I, for one, don't know what is of  21 interest to my learned friends in cross-examination.  22 They may have no interest in many of the territories  23 and may not wish to cross-examine on any of them.  So  24 in the end it may well be, my Lord, that we will  25 undertake the task you've identified, but at this  26 point it's my submission that the examination is  27 leading my friends to the source of the information,  28 and as I said, I will try to be more express about  29 material that seems to be vague in Mr. Sterritt's  3 0 mind.  31 MR. GOLDIE:  Well, my Lord, I'm not talking about the  32 information we received in June of 1988, that's not  33 what I'm talking about at all.  We don't have the  34 index, as my friend describes it, but that's not the  35 issue.  The issue is dealing with the volumes that we  36 were delivered and with the materials delivered the  37 2nd, 7th and this morning, and it is to that that I am  38 addressing my friend's attention.  I have no complaint  39 about the specificity of my friend's questions, it's  40 the answers that are providing the difficulty.  41 THE COURT:  Yes.  Well, I think that it is unwise for judges,  42 generally speaking, to send counsel off to perform  43 tasks where opposing counsel, sometimes I suppose  44 being necessary, can.  I think the better course is to  45 leave the parties to their own resources but to ensure  46 that the evidence is led if possible in a way that  47 will assist, and I see the merit in what Mr. Goldie 775?  Discussion  1 says.  I think that Mr. Rush has tried to have the  2 witness identify as best he can where the references  3 will be, but there's an area that isn't covered by  4 answers or questions that are not answered by what  5 I've just said, and I'm not sure what I ought to do,  6 and I think I can only assess it from when the time  7 comes if Mr. Goldie has to have more time then he has  8 to have more time.  I don't -- I'm not disposed to  9 acceding to Mr. Goldie's request that Mr. Rush either  10 conduct the examination in a particular way or that he  11 provide particulars of where these references may be  12 found not at this point anyway.  But I would love to  13 discuss this with counsel further after lunch if  14 anybody can think of something more useful to say than  15 what I've just said.  Thank you.  16 THE REGISTRAR: Order in court.  Court will adjourn until two.  17  18 (PROCEEDINGS ADJOURNED AT 12:30)  19  20 I hereby certify the foregoing to be  21 a true and accurate transcript of the  22 proceedings herein transcribed to the  23 best of my skill and ability  24  25  26  27  28 Graham D. Parker  29 Official Reporter  30 United Reporting Service Ltd.  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47 7759  N. Sterritt (For Plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Rush  1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  (PROCEEDINGS RECONVENED AT 2:00 p.m.)  THE REGISTRAR:  Order in court.  Calling Delgamuukw versus Her  Majesty the Queen at bar, My Lord.  Mr. Rush.  THE COURT  MR. RUSH:  Q  A  A  Q  THE COURT  MR. RUSH:  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  You told us before the luncheon break, Mr. Sterritt,  that Mr. Stanley Williams had instructed you about  some of the adjustments on the boundary on this map,  and that is Exhibit 435.  And can you tell His  Lordship about what time it was that you had received  these instructions, please?  That would appear in my loose-leaf notes in October,  November of 1987.  And is that both in respect of the Sakxum higookxw  territory that is on the south side of the Skeena, and  as well the Gaxsbgabaxs territory that you've  indicated there was an adjustment to that boundary?  Yes.  All right, thank you.  You can set that aside if you  like, Mr. Sterritt.  Next, I would like the witness to be shown Exhibit  436.  Yes.  Thank you, Mr. Rush.  This is a map stamped "Draft Copy" and labelled  "Sakxum higookxw", S-a-x -- S-a-k-x-u-m, new word,  H-i-g-o-o-k-w, and labelled "Schedule C to the  interrogatory response of Sakxum higookxw, also known  as Vernon Smith on 02/12/87."  Mr. Sterritt, do you  recognize the area depicted in this map?  Yes, I do.  And can you tell us where in relation to Kitwanga this  area is?  This territory is west of the Skeena River and south  of Kitwanga about 15 miles or so, 15 or 20 miles.  Is this close to an area known as Fiddler Creek?  Yes.  It's -- it surrounds Fiddler Creek.  All right.  Information that you had received from  hereditary chiefs you passed on to Marvin George in  respect of this territory.  Can you tell the court  from whom you received this information?  The information was from Stanley Williams, and that  was on a trip that I made by vehicle, and my field  books -- it will appear in my field books -- in 1981,  I believe.  And also a helicopter flight in the fall,  October of 1982. 7760  N. Sterritt (For Plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Rush  1 Q   And is that the flight you took with Stanley Williams,  2 Arthur Matthews Senior and Russell Stevens on October  3 18th, '82?  4 A   Yes.  5 Q   I think you told us earlier, and you mentioned that  6 you made notes either during or after that flight?  7 A   Yes.  I made notes during this, and -- during this  8 flight, and they appear in my field book.  I also  9 obtained some information from Doris Morrison and I'm  10 not sure -- well, that would be in my field books.  11 Q   Yes?  12 A   That was a -- just a place name that she identified  13 for me.  That would be the earlier information.  14 Q   All right.  Now, did subsequent information that you  15 received from the hereditary chiefs lead to an  16 adjustment on this territory and boundary?  17 A   Yes.  In 1987, and it -- I think it was in May or June  18 of 1987, and also in the fall of 1987 in October,  19 November, that I reviewed this information with  20 Stanley Williams, which resulted in further  21 information and resulted in changes to this boundary.  22 Q   All right.  And can you just explain what led to the  23 change?  24 A   I should also add my aunt, Edith McDougal also  25 provided information.  That would appear in a field  26 book.  And the change I described yesterday, a change  27 in the south-east corner, and I mentioned the name  28 Pacific, it's a railroad station on the map that does  29 not appear on this map, but it -- it's a change that  30 follows the height of land and it comes down to the  31 lake in the south-east corner, and that's spelt Dam --  32 or spelled D-a-m space X-s-i space T-a-x, Dam Xsi Tax.  33 Q   Now, Mr. Sterritt, if I may just ask you to pause  34 there.  Is that the change that you told us about in  35 respect of the external boundary that you mentioned  36 was a change between overlay map 4 and overlay map 6?  37 A   Yes.  38 Q   All right.  39 A   Now, the other change is that -- and it's based on  40 information that I provided to Marvin George.  41 Q   And from whom did you get that information?  42 A   Stanley Williams.  43 Q   Is this part of the information you've indicated that  44 you received from him in May, June of '87, and  45 October, November of '87?  46 A   Yes.  The upper boundary follows part of the creek  47 called Xsi an Skeeks X-s-i, space a-n space 7761  N. Sterritt (For Plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Rush  1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  THE  THE  THE  THE  THE  MR.  S-k-e-e-k-s.  And on the topographic maps that is  Lome Creek, L-o-r-n-e.  The boundary, in fact, is  midway between the mouth of Fiddler Creek and the  mouth of Lome Creek, and goes up the height of land,  goes west up the height of land all the way to where  the boundary -- the upper boundary meets the height of  land on the west side.  So that would be the change in  this territory.  Q   And what's --  A  And part of the change -- now there is also on the  east side of the Skeena, a very small area above this  territory, it's smaller than the territory shown that  crosses the Skeena, and does not necessarily link to  this territory.  And that's -- that information, once  again, I extrapolated based on insufficient  information, and Stanley Williams was able to describe  that more precisely to me, where that boundary goes.  Q   And what part of the boundary is that?  A That is a small fishing area on the east side of the  Skeena and slightly upstream from the mouth of Lome  Creek.  It's not this large area that's shown?  It's not as large as that, no.  It's not the same thing, or is it?  It's a small area inside that.  I see.  COURT:  WITNESS  COURT:  WITNESS  COURT:  RUSH:  Q  All right.  And Mr. Sterritt, I wonder if you would  just go to 9-A, please, in relation to that small  area.  And the territory you are speaking of here is  named Sakxum higookxw; is that right?  A   Yes.  Q   Now just in respect of the small area, there is  another small territory with an arrow pointing to it  which indicates Sakxum higookxw.  Is that what you are  now speaking about?  A   Yes, it is.  Q   And the time frame that you received the information  from Mr. Williams?  A   October, November of 1987, and there may be a note in  the spring of 1987, as well, I think May or June.  Q   All right.  So it's October, November '87?  A   Yes.  Q   And there may be a note in October -- excuse me, May  or June of '87?  A   Yes.  Q   Where is Fiddler Creek on this map?  The name Fiddler 7762  N. Sterritt (For Plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Rush  1 Creek does not appear.  2 A   If you can -- you can see the name Dorreen.  3 Q   Yes?  4 A   Inside the lots, on the Skeena River, about midway  5 between the northern and southern boundary is the name  6 Dorreen, D-o-r-r-e-e-n.  7 Q   Yes?  8 A   If you go to the left of there and into lot 5513.  9 Q   Yes?  10 A  Well, there is a creek running both north-east and  11 west from there, and that is Fiddler Creek.  12 Q   Is there a name?  13 A   It appears as Luu Mii Xsugwin Gaat, and that's another  14 way that the -- it's actually misspelled, part of it.  15 It's on here, it's L-u-u space M-i-i space  16 X-s-u-g-w-i-n space G-a-a-t.  And that's one way of  17 describing a creek, Luu Mii Xsugwin Gaat, and that's  18 Fiddler Creek.  19 Q   And where does it outlet?  20 A  At an Indian reserve, you can see IR number -- it  21 appears to be an eight, and it's spelled C-h-i-g,  22 dash, i-n, dash, k-a-h-t, at lot 2170.  23 THE COURT:  And the rest of this area on the other side of the  24 Skeena should be deleted from this territory, should  25 it, except for that little enclave?  26 THE WITNESS:  Yes.  27 THE COURT:  Yes, thank you.  28 THE WITNESS:  From the information that I had received, there is  29 another area of the Eagles just on the north side, not  30 far on the north side of Lome Creek, and I didn't  31 have enough information at the time, and I  32 extrapolated between the points I had.  But in fact,  33 on the north side of there, there is a boundary that  34 is introduced later from the information that Stanley  35 Williams provided me, that the Eagles were slightly  36 north of Lome Creek on the other side.  37 THE COURT:  I'm sorry, did you show us where Lome Creek is on  38 this map?  You showed us Fiddler Creek.  39 THE WITNESS:  If you — yes.  If you go to the northern border  40 as it appears on this map.  41 THE COURT:  That's right.  42 THE WITNESS:  As it leaves the Skeena, it's actually — it's  43 following Lome Creek.  44 THE COURT:  Yes, all right.  4 5 MR. RUSH:  46 Q   Now, Mr. Sterritt, if you would just step down again,  47 from the witness box and look at 9-A. 7763  N. Sterritt (For Plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Rush  1 The territory now that you've just mentioned --  2 you mentioned there was another area of Sakxum  3 higookxw.  You've pointed out the small area where the  4 arrow is pointing to, there is another area of Sakxum  5 higookxw above an area identified as Haaxw.  Is that  6 the area you've just referred to?  7 A   Yes, it is.  8 Q   Now, the information that you received from Stanley  9 Williams in terms of the three Sakxum higookxw  10 territories, is that -- are the changes that are  11 reflected in that information, reflected on map 9-A?  12 A   Yes, they are.  13 THE COURT:  Where is the third territory, please?  14 THE WITNESS:  The first one was here, then the small one was  15 here, and then there is another one right there.  16 THE COURT:  Oh, yes.  17 MR. RUSH:  18 Q   Now that northern Sakxum higookxw territory would be  19 off the top end of the map, would it, or is it shown  20 on this map?  21 A   There is a line there, a kind of a grey line that  22 goes -- works its way to the west under the name Lelt,  23 L-e-l-t.  That -- that line would more or less  24 follow -- generally follow the line of the southern --  25 or the southern border of that Eagle territory there,  26 and Lelt moves up one.  This was a complicated area  27 and Stanley pointed out where the trails were and just  28 how this territory went.  29 Q   All right, thank you.  Again, I take it that when you  30 are referring to Stanley doing that, he did so in the  31 time frames that you've indicated already?  32 A   That information will appear in the notes of October,  33 November of 1987.  34 Q   Okay, thank you.  You can set that aside, Mr.  35 Sterritt.  36 Now, Mr. Sterritt, I would like you to refer to  37 Exhibit 438, please.  Should be in that.  38 THE REGISTRAR:  Tab 4 of the same book, My Lord.  3 9 MR. RUSH:  40 Q   Now this exhibit is identified in the upper right-hand  41 corner as the territory of Sakxum higookxw and Sima  42 Diiks at Xsi Tax, and then labelled again as the  43 "Schedule C to the interrogatory response of Sima  44 Diiks, also known as Calvin Hyzims," and then written  45 in the note below that is dated 02/12/87.  Do you  46 recognize this map, Mr. Sterritt?  47 A   Yes, I do. 7764  N. Sterritt (For Plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Rush  1 Q   And the area that's described here, do you recognize  2 that as the area of Sima Diiks?  3 A   Yes.  4 Q   Now, the information that was provided for this map,  5 who provided you with information regarding this?  6 THE COURT:  I'm sorry, Mr. Rush, is that Sima, S-i-m-a?  7 MR. RUSH:  Yes.  8 THE COURT:  All right, thank you.  9 THE REGISTRAR:  Number 57 on the plaintiffs' list, My Lord.  10 MR. RUSH:  11 Q   Xsi Tax, that's X-s-i, new word, T-a-x underlined.  12 What does that mean, Mr. Sterritt?  13 A   That means "water from the lake, " and in this case it  14 refers to the Kitwancool River, K-i-t-w-a-n-c-o-o-1,  15 which comes from Kitwancool Lake.  16 Q   All right.  Now this map is also stamped "Draft Copy".  17 Now, Mr. Sterritt, who provided you or instructed you  18 with regard to the boundary and territory of Sakxum  19 higookxw and Sima Diiks at Xsi Tax?  20 A   Stanley Williams.  21 Q   Can you say when?  22 A   This information was in -- he had been talking to me  23 for quite awhile about it, and I think -- I think it  24 would appear in my field books, some of this  25 information.  And the information that I obtained for  26 this map would be in the spring of 1987, and then in  27 the fall of 1987 -- actually, it's fairly close to the  28 final map, except you see almost in the centre of the  29 northern boundary there is an arrow and the word "Ska  30 Loo'it", S-k-a space L-o-o-'-i-t.  What I hadn't  31 realized when he told me that, was that there was two  32 creeks, one next to the -- each other, next to the  33 other, and they both had the name Ska Loo'it, and  34 there would be a prefix that goes with it, and whether  35 it's a large one or small one or the first one and the  36 second one.  And that boundary as it leaves there  37 going east, extends farther up to the north and then  38 comes down, and that would be the main change in that  39 territory.  40 Q   All right.  I just want to back you up just a little  41 bit before we come to that.  The map here is dated  42 February 12, 1987, and it's prior to that date,  43 firstly, that I would like to determine who informed  44 you about the territory and boundaries?  45 A   Stanley Williams.  46 Q   All right.  And that information is found in your  47 field books.  And can you say what time frame it's 7765  N. Sterritt (For Plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Rush  1 likely to be -- we are likely to find it in your field  2 books?  3 A   Some of the information was provided in 19 -- oh, I  4 would say about 1982.  5 Q   All right.  6 A  And periodically several times after that there was --  7 there would be more than one time, I think, that he  8 had explained some of the boundaries of this territory  9 to me, but not all of them.  10 Q   All right.  11 A  And then in -- in the -- perhaps the fall of 1986, he  12 provided more information which I misunderstood, and  13 then he clarified later.  14 Q   All right.  Now, Mr. Sterritt, this map is different  15 from earlier ones that you have been referred to.  Can  16 you -- do you know who prepared this map?  17 A   I did.  18 Q   And did you -- did you draw the line on this map?  19 A   Yes, I did.  20 Q   Okay.  And in -- there is writing on the map pointing  21 to various features along the boundary and outside and  22 inside the boundary.  Whose writing is that?  23 A   That's mine.  24 Q   And the names -- these are Gitksan names that are  25 written here.  Who provided you with the names and who  26 indicated that that name referred to the feature  27 that's identified there?  28 A   Some of these names I got from other people, but the  29 same names I also got from Stanley Williams.  30 Q   All right.  Did you receive these names -- all of  31 these names from Stanley Williams?  32 A   Yes, I did.  33 Q   Okay.  But you say that in addition, some of the names  34 were provided by others?  35 A   Yes.  36 Q   Can you recall any of the others?  37 A  Well for example, Lax Wila oo, that's L-a-x space  38 W-i-l-a space o-o, which is the mountain to the west,  39 a number of people have given me that name:  Eli  40 Turner -- that would appear in my field book -- I  41 think Art Matthews Senior, Leonard Bright.  42 Q   Okay.  43 A   That's a few of them.  44 Q   Now, you've said that subsequent to your drawing this  45 map, you were informed about an adjustment to the  46 boundary by Stanley Williams; is that right?  47 A   Yes. 7766  N. Sterritt (For Plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Rush  1 Q   And it was unclear to me in your testimony just where  2 it was that this adjustment occurred?  3 A  Well, under the word "forest" which is directly north  4 of the -- of the east end of the territory there,  5 under the word "forest" is a word spelled L-a-x  6 underlined, space B-e-h-1-i-t, Lax Behlit.  7 Q   Oh, I see.  The forest you are referring to is as in  8 "The Big Forest"?  9 A   Yes.  10 Q   All right.  There are two names in the upper right-  11 hand corner of the boundary there, one looks to be Ska  12 Loo'it and Lax Behlit?  13 A   Yeah.  Ska Loo'it is S-k-a space L-o-o-'-i-t.  14 Q   Yes?  15 A  And Lax Behlit is L-a-x underlined, space B-e-h-1-i-t.  16 Q   All right.  Now from that further information you  17 received from Mr. Williams, what was the change that  18 occurred at that place?  19 A  Well, Lax Behlit, which I just spelt, is a fairly  20 lengthy, extensive area, and Stanley pointed out to me  21 that that line runs up it to the north a certain  22 distance, I don't recall exactly the distance right  23 now, a certain distance, and then down, and it's a  24 very narrow strip that runs up to the north, possibly  25 three or four miles from that point, and then back  26 down to the Skeena River.  This point, it would run up  27 like so.  2 8 THE COURT:  Goes north?  29 THE WITNESS:  And then slightly east.  30 THE COURT:  Slightly east?  31 THE WITNESS:  And then down and joins this line and comes down  32 like so.  33 THE COURT:  I see, all right.  34 MR. RUSH:  35 Q   Now, is that change reflected in 9-A?  36 A   Yes, it is.  37 Q   Would you just look at 9-A?  38 A   It's right -- Kitwanga is right here, this is the line  39 and it comes up like so, and then down.  It's a wider  40 territory there.  41 Q   And what had you previously understood it to be?  42 A  Well, I had it going on the lower Ska Loo'it, S-k-a  43 space L-o-o-i-t, and it should have moved up to the  44 next one and then gone up Lax Behlit, L-a-x space  45 B-e-h-1-i-t.  46 Q   Okay.  And those discussions with Stanley Williams,  47 when did they occur? 7767  N. Sterritt (For Plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Rush  1 A   In October, November of 1987.  2 Q   So far as you are aware, were there any other  3 adjustments to the boundary that you see on this map?  4 A   No, no.  That's the main one.  5 Q   All right.  You can set that aside then, please.  6 Now, would you show Mr. Sterritt Exhibit 446-9.  7 THE COURT:  Yes, 446-9  8 MR. RUSH:  This is commission evidence of Stanley Williams'  9 evidence.  10 THE COURT:  This is —  11 THE REGISTRAR:  446-9.  12 THE COURT:  On the commission of —  13 MR. RUSH:  Stanley Williams.  14 THE REGISTRAR:  Stanley Williams.  15 THE COURT:  I'm sorry, did you say the Commission Evidence of  16 Stanley Williams?  17 MR. RUSH:  Yes.  18 THE COURT:  Didn't he give evidence?  19 MR. RUSH:  On commission he did.  20 THE REGISTRAR:  On video.  21 THE COURT:  Oh, it was on video that I saw him.  Yes, all right.  22 MR. RUSH:  23 Q   Now this is a map, Exhibit 446 (9) in the lower right-  24 hand corner, identified as Gwis gyen, that's G-w-i-s,  25 new word, g-y-e-n, 1 to 50,000 and stamped "Draft  26 Copy".  Do you recognize this, Mr. Sterritt?  27 A   Yes, I do.  28 Q   You were provided with information about the boundary  29 and the territory that's shown here, were you?  3 0          A   Yes, I was.  31 Q   And would I be correct to suggest to you that one of  32 your informants was Stanley Williams?  33 A   Yes.  34 Q   Were there others?  35 A   Yes, there were others.  For details within the  36 territory?  37 Q   Yes.  Who were they?  38 A   George Milton.  George Milton would appear in some  39 notes that I made about 1978 or 1979.  40 Q   George Milton has passed away?  41 A   Yes.  42 Q   Was he a chief?  43 A   Yes.  44 Q   Any other informants?  45 A   Gideon Johnson, Ernie Hyzims, H-y-z-i-m-s, and David  46 Wilson, and that would go back into the 1970's.  47 Q   Were there notes made of these conversations? 776?  N. Sterritt (For Plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Rush  1 A   Yes.  And I'm trying to remember if they were in the  2 field books or whether they are on topo sheets.  I  3 think for sure they appear on topo sheets, but whether  4 the original entry on a piece of paper was on a piece  5 of paper in a notebook, I don't recall.  6 Q   All right.  Now I want to ask you, Mr. Sterritt, about  7 if there were any adjustments made to this boundary at  8 a subsequent time?  9 A   The subsequent work that I did was in 1988 primarily,  10 and it was on the three -- there was three field trips  11 I made by vehicle in the winter of 1988, I think that  12 was March, and what it -- what that work did was  13 provide more detail about the creeks and hills and  14 mountains within that territory, and the accuracy of  15 the location of those points.  But the change, to the  16 best of my knowledge, there is no change in the  17 boundary that I can see on this map.  18 Q   Those field trips were with whom?  19 A   The first trip was with -- well, there was -- two --  20 there was three days.  On the first day it was with  21 Stanley Williams and Gideon Johnson, and on the second  22 day.  And then on the third day it was Stanley  23 Williams and Ernie Hyzims.  And those notes will all  24 appear with Stanley Williams.  25 Q   In the early spring of 1988?  26 A   Yes.  27 Q   Now, would you just go to the map 9-A, and I'll ask  28 you if map 9-A reflects your instructions with regard  29 to the boundary of Gwis gyen?  30 A   Yes.  That boundary is almost identical.  The only  31 change might be, from the map in front of us, is a  32 slight change between the -- what we call Juniper  33 Creek, J-u-p-i-p-e-r, and the Skeena River, and it's a  34 very minor change.  35 THE COURT:  This is the river here?  36 THE WITNESS:  This is the Skeena, yes, and this is Juniper Creek  37 right there.  3 8    MR. RUSH:  39 Q   Does Juniper Creek have a Gitksan name?  40 A   Yes, it does.  It's Xsu wii Gwanks, X-s-u, w-i-i space  41 G-w-a-n-k-s.  42 Q   And in terms of the additional information that you  43 received from Stanley Williams in the spring of 1988,  44 did that have to relate to -- did that relate, rather,  45 to additional names or places on this map?  46 A   Yes.  I filled in a tremendous amount of the detail,  47 and also from this map, more accurately located where 7769  N. Sterritt (For Plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Rush  1 some features that do appear on here, accurately  2 located where they are.  3 Q   Such as?  4 A  Well, a good example is on the very southern wedge of  5 the territory, written down is the word "Win Lis Lis  6 Loop", that's W-i-n space L-i-s space L-i-s space  7 L-o-o-p, that feature is actually much farther north  8 and just south of Juniper Creek, or Xsu wii Gwanks,  9 X-s-u space W-i-i space G-w-a-n-k-s.  10 Q   Is that feature a creek?  11 A   No.  It's a ridge, it's a mountain.  12 Q   I see.  And that mountain appears, you say, farther  13 up?  14 A   Yes.  15 Q   On this map?  16 A   Yes.  17 Q   Can you -- do you know why it was placed where it was?  18 A   I had done a field trip in the winter -- it's along  19 with my photographs, so it would be on that index.  I  20 took photographs, perhaps, in 1984, 1985.  21 Q   During the field trip to this area?  22 A   Not to this area.  Stanley and I were well to the  23 west, on the west side of the Skeena at a point where  24 we could look in this direction, and he was pointing  25 out this mountain to me, and it was difficult to --  26 from that distance to see which feature he was talking  27 about.  And I located it as best I could from there,  28 but subsequently, as I say, we got in a position where  29 we could look right at that mountain, and that's when  30 I located it accurately.  31 Q   Was there any other change in position of features you  32 had earlier identified?  33 A  Well, there is another one about a third of the way up  34 the eastern boundary, there is the word "Xslawit",  35 X-s-1-a-w-i-t, and that is actually farther to the  36 west.  It's a lower ridge and it's not a -- it's not a  37 high mountain, it's a low ridge below the other one I  38 mentioned, Win Lis Lis Loop, W-i-n space L-i-s space  39 L-i-s space L-o-o-p.  40 Q   In the, I guess, south-east portion or bottom right-  41 hand portion of this territory, there is what appears  42 to be a creek, Xsihl Guuhl, X-s-i-h-1, new word,  43 G-u-u-h-1, and then a question mark behind that.  44 During this trip in March of 1988, were you able to  45 determine anything about that particular feature?  46 A   Yes.  I have not identified a creek of that name  47 within that territory.  I would have to -- I'm not 7770  N. Sterritt (For Plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Rush  1 sure where I got that reference from, and there is a  2 question mark there, but there is no such creek in  3 that area that I'm aware of.  4 Q   So that that -- the name for that creek should not  5 appear there, in fact?  6 A   Right.  7 Q   Are there any other topographic features or names that  8 you were informed about by Mr. Williams in March of  9 '88 that were additions to this territorial map?  10 A   I could fill the whole territory.  I have a tremendous  11 amount of names that appear in there but they all  12 appear in my notes.  And also, I think, a good number  13 of them are listed in the affidavit of Stanley  14 Williams under his territory.  15 Q   Thank you.  You can set that aside.  16 Now, would you show Mr. Sterritt Exhibit 661-1,  17 this is a --  18 THE REGISTRAR: Marked for ID?  19 MR. RUSH:  Yes, could be.  This was a map, My Lord, that was  20 presented to Mr. Richard Benson during his commission  21 testimony.  It's a map of a territory of Gyolugyet.  22 THE COURT:  How is this Gyolugyet spelt?  23 MR. RUSH:  G-y-o-g-l-y-e-t?  24 THE WITNESS:  No.  Better give him the number.  25 THE REGISTRAR:  Number 24 on the list.  2 6 MR. RUSH:  Number 24, My Lord.  27 THE COURT:  How do you spell it again, Mr. Rush?  28 MR. RUSH:  G-y-o-l-u-g-y-e-t.  29 THE COURT:  You didn't disagree with that?  30 THE WITNESS:  I won't disagree with it.  31 THE COURT:  I thought you did, I'm sorry.  32 THE WITNESS:  No.  His first spelling I disagreed with, that's  33 why I suggested that he get the spelling.  34 THE COURT:  So G-y-o-l-u-g-y-e-t?  35 MR. RUSH:  Yes.  36 THE WITNESS:  Yes.  37 MR. RUSH:  38 Q   Now, My Lord, this map again is labelled "Schedule B",  39 and in writing it's "Gyolugyet, Mary McKenzie" on the  40 right-hand side, and there is a date of November the  41 25th, 1987, in the upper right-hand corner, which I  42 believe was the date that the map was introduced as an  43 exhibit during the Commission Evidence of Mr. Richard  44 Benson.  There is also a label on the right-hand --  45 upper right-hand corner identifying the map as  46 "Schedule B to the interrogatory response to  47 Gyolugyet, also known as Mary McKenzie, January 23rd, 7771  N. Sterritt (For Plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Rush  1 1987."  And the exhibit, of course, is 661-1 for  2 identification.  3 Now, it's a long, skinny map, Mr. Sterritt, I'll  4 spread it out in front of you, and ask you if you can  5 recognize this map?  6 A   Yes, I do.  7 Q   Now, was information provided to you from hereditary  8 chiefs which you then provided to Marvin George for  9 the drawing of this map?  10 A   Yes.  11 Q   Okay.  And which hereditary chiefs were involved in  12 instructing you about this?  13 A   Pete Muldoe, Richard Benson, Albert Tait, David  14 Gunanoot, Walter Blackwater, Steve Morrison.  15 Now, I think that the Steve Morrison notes would  16 appear, possibly, in the scribbler, very likely in the  17 scribbler or in some loose notes that I wrote in  18 mid-1975 or the mid '70's I mean, '75 or '76.  19 Chris Harris, there may be -- I think that's -- I  20 think that basically covers the people that I obtained  21 information from on this.  22 Q   On the part from Steve Morrison, the other notes that  23 you've -- or instructions that you took, are they  24 contained within notes in your field books?  25 A   Yes.  26 Q   And does that apply to Chris Harris as well?  27 A  Well, yes.  Cris Harris had some information that he  28 gave me, and there is information that appears on  29 there that I also relied on.  30 Q   Okay.  31 A  And those are in the -- contained in the material.  I  32 understand that's been turned over to the defendants.  33 Q   Okay, all right.  34 Now, Mr. Sterritt, I just want you to look at this  35 map and ask you if you received subsequent information  36 from a hereditary chief or hereditary chiefs, which  37 led you to conclude there was a change in the boundary  38 as it's described in this map?  39 A   Yes.  I had always been told that the creek, Xsihl  40 Guugan, X-s-i-h-1 space G-u-u-g-a-n --  41 THE COURT:  G-u-u or?  42 THE WITNESS:  Yes, G-u-u-g-a-n, which appears on topographic  43 maps as Taylor River, that that belonged to Gyolugyet.  44 And the extrapolation that I made was that the  45 territory of Gyolugyet went to the very headwaters of  46 the Taylor River.  4 7    MR. RUSH: 7772  N. Sterritt (For Plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Rush  1 Q   And that's what is shown here on this exhibit?  2 A   Yes.  3 Q   Did subsequent information you received alter that  4 boundary?  5 A   Yes, it did.  I had been told about a creek named Xsu  6 Wii Luu Dagwigit, that's spelled X-s-u, W-i-i space  7 L-u-u space D-a-g-w-i-g-i-t.  A creek named Xsu Wii  8 Luu Dagwigit was somewhere in the north end of this  9 territory, and David Gunanoot actually first described  10 that creek to me as a trail route that he had taken  11 from the Bell-Irving River over to the Upper Nass  12 River.  And in -- I eventually located where that was,  13 and in doing that, I also had discussions,  14 subsequently, that explained that Xsu Wii Luu Dagwigit  15 was the territory of the House of Niist.  16 Q   And from whom did you obtain those instructions?  17 A  Walter Blackwater.  18 Q   Niist is the hereditary chief who has territory north  19 of Gyolugyet?  20 A  And east.  21 Q   All right.  22 A   Yes.  Also, Richard Benson and I talked to Daisy  23 Olsen, she was the daughter of Alfred Shanoss,  24 S-h-a-n-o-s-s, and she mentioned that -- that creek.  25 And Abel Brown, I believe, mentioned that creek as  26 being -- he had mentioned it, I think he mentioned  27 that it was part of that -- of the territory of Peter  28 Shanoss, but I'm not sure if he said that, but  29 certainly the others did.  30 Q   And Peter Shanoss was in the House of Niist?  31 A   Yes.  32 Q   Now, in -- was there a change in the boundary in the  33 northern portion of Gyolugyet's territory that borders  34 with Niist?  35 A   Yes.  The boundary followed the height of land south  36 of Xsu Wii Luu Dagwigit until it crossed where -- just  37 below where Xsu Wii Luu Dagwigit entered the main  38 Taylor River.  39 Q   All right.  And can you tell us at about what time it  40 was that you received the information that led to that  41 change?  42 A   In 1987.  43 Q   Yes.  44 A   I believe it was between January and June of 1987, but  45 neither of those -- none of those have extensive  46 notes, so it wouldn't be that hard to pin down.  47 Q   All right.  Mr. Sterritt, just perhaps this will 7773  N. Sterritt (For Plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Rush  1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  A  A  Q  A  Q  THE  THE  THE  THE  THE  THE  A  COURT:  WITNESS  COURT:  WITNESS  COURT:  WITNESS  assist you.  The map -- overlay map 9, which is dated  May 20th of 1987, Exhibit 5 for Identification, seems  to show the change that you've indicated.  Does that  help you at all with the date at which you received  the information?  Yes.  Well, it would be prior to that and possibly  late 1986 as well.  Okay.  And the informants you have indicated were  Daisy Olsen, Abel Brown and Walter Blackwater?  For that information, yes.  Okay.  Oh, and Richard Benson.  Yes, all right.  Now, Mr. Sterritt, if you'll look to the southern  portion of the territory, and I would ask you if you  see any adjustment in the boundary referred -- in the  southern portion as a result of information that came  to you after that map was prepared?  Yes.  Here is where I was having -- personally was  having a great deal of difficulty in getting this  straight, partly because of the name of the creek,  Xsagan Gaksea, X-s-a-g-a-n space G-a-k-s-e-a.  Sorry, G-a-k?  -- s-e-a.  S-e-a?  Yes.  Okay.  Which is Kuldoe Creek.  It was -- as you go up  that creek and swing around to the left, that's what's  known on the map as Kuldoe Creek, and it's what I  talked about this morning in relation to Mary  Johnson's, the map of Antgulibix and Tsibasaa, Dam  Ansa Angwas, D-a-m space A-n-s-a space A-n-g-w-a-s.  Richard Benson had clarified that there was a name  change at the junction downstream from that river --  or from that creek when it entered Kuldoe Creek --  pardon me, from when it entered Xsagan Gaksea,  X-s-a-g-a-n space G-a-k-s-e-a.  In any event, I was having trouble determining  where the boundary of Gyolugyet went in this area, and  subsequently, during the commission of Richard Benson,  he identified that the boundary continued along the  height of land south of Kuldoe Creek, down to the  junction of Kuldoe Creek and what is locally known as  Little Kuldoe Creek or Gwiis Xsagan Gaksea, G-w-i-i-s  space X-s-a-g-a-n space G-a-k-s-e-a.  And that's under  the name Mauus, M-A-U-U-S, on the map. 7774  N. Sterritt (For Plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Rush  1 MR. RUSH:  2 Q   That is on the map that's in front of you?  3 A   Yes.  So there is a change to go approximately through  4 the name Mauus and on down to the junction of Little  5 Kuldoe Creek and Big Kuldoe Creek.  6 Q   And did that change conform to the evidence of Richard  7 Benson?  8 A   Yes, it did.  9 Q   All right.  10 A  And the other change is that the line should go  11 through the lake at the head of Kuldoe Creek, which I  12 described this morning.  13 Q   All right.  Apart from the evidence of Richard Benson  14 on commission, was there any other information about  15 that change which you had received from another  16 source?  17 A   Yes.  From Pete Muldoe and from Jeff Harris Senior,  18 and those notes are in the spring of 1988.  19 Q   Now, if you'll just step off the witness stand for a  20 moment and look at overlay map 9-A, please.  Look at  21 the black line.  Does the black line on 9-A reflect  22 the changes about which you were informed?  23 A   Yes.  The area that we are talking about is very close  24 to New Kuldoe, and this black line of 9-A corresponds  25 to the changes that I'm talking about, as well as the  26 change in Gyolugyet's territory to exclude Xsu Wii Luu  27 Dagwigit, X-s-u, W-i-i Space L-u-u space  28 D-a-g-w-i-g-i-t, at the head of Taylor River.  29 MR. RUSH:  Thank you.  30 THE COURT:  Can we take the adjournment now, Mr. Rush?  31 MR. RUSH:  Thank you.  32 THE COURT:  Thank you.  33 THE REGISTRAR:  Order in court.  Court will adjourn.  34  35 (PROCEEDINGS ADJOURNED AT 3:00 p.m.)  36  37 I hereby certify the foregoing to be  38 a true and accurate transcript of the  39 proceedings herein transcribed to the  40 best of my skill and ability.  41  42  43  44 Toni Kerekes,  45 O.R., R.P.R.  46 United Reporting Service Ltd.  47  7775 7775  N. Sterritt (For Plaintiff)  In chief by Mr. Rush  1  2  3  THE  REGIS1  4  THE  COURT  5  MR.  RUSH:  6  Q  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  A  16  Q  17  18  A  19  20  Q  21  22  A  23  24  25  26  27  Q  28  29  30  31  A  32  THE  COURT  33  A  34  35  THE  COURT  36  MR.  RUSH:  37  Q  38  39  A  40  41  42  Q  43  44  A  45  Q  46  47  A  Mr.  (PROCEEDINGS RESUMED AT 3:15)  Order in court.  Rush.  Yes.  Would you please place Exhibit 661-H before Mr.  Sterritt, please.  This is a map that was entered for  identification in the Commission Evidence of Richard  Benson.  In that Commission it was Exhibit 5 and it's  been marked as an exhibit here as 661-H, and it is --  on the outside copy it's marked Luus, L-u-u-s, and  stamped "Draft copy" on the inside.  Now, Mr.  Sterritt, do you recognize this map as it's before  you?  Yes, I do.  And the territory that that depicts is which  territory?  The territory of Luus on the -- close to Blackwater  Lake.  All right.  And you were instructed about this  territory by certain hereditary chiefs?  Yes.  I -- this reference to this territory appears in  the information of Chris Harris.  It may appear in the  information of Steve Morrison, I think some field  notes that I took with Albert Tait on a flight that I  made in spring of 1983, May of 1983.  There is an indication of a field trip on May the  20th, 1983 with Pete Muldoe, Albert Tait, and David  Blackwater, at which -- or during which you went to  Muckaboo Creek and Dandochax River?  That's the trip.  :  Can you give the spelling for the reporter.  Muckaboo is M-u-c-k-a-b-o-o, Creek, and Damdochax is  D-a-m-d-o-c-h-a-x.  :  And Damdochax is also a creek?  Damdochax is the name of a river but also the name of  an area, am I right about that Mr. Sterritt?  Damdochax, D-a-m-d-o-c-h-a-x, is what appears on the  topographic maps as Blackwater Lake.  It's Damdochax  Lake and Damdochax River.  I think we referred to that area as Blackwater this  morning, is that correct?  Yes.  Now, the notes that you have are -- or notes were  taken of these conversations with these chiefs?  There's -- as I recall on the helicopter flight as we 7776  N. Sterritt (For Plaintiff)  In chief by Mr. Rush  1 flew down the Nass River here Albert Tait pointed out  2 the creek and I made an entry to that effect.  Whether  3 he referred to ownership at that time I don't recall.  4 The -- there was also subsequent discussions in 1983  5 or '84 with Walter Blackwater, and I don't recall who  6 else I may have talked to about this area.  7 Q   Were there any discussions with Jeff Harris, Sr.?  8 A   Not until very recently.  9 Q   All right.  10 A   Not earlier.  11 Q   And what about Nancy Supernault?  12 A   Yes.  I talked to Nancy Supernault.  Of course we went  13 on the flight in September of 1986 and after -- well,  14 I talked to her before that flight, as much as a year  15 before that flight, I think, and then we took the  16 flight in September of '86 and then we -- I had  17 discussions with her again after that.  18 Q   All right.  And are these discussions recorded in your  19 field notebooks?  20 A   Those would be on loose-leaf pages, and that so if I  21 could narrow it down, September of '86, probably  22 around June of '86, and then January or February of  23 1987.  There aren't that extensive a bunch of notes  24 with Nancy, so they should appear in there.  25 Q   All right.  Subsequent discussions that you had with  26 hereditary chiefs, did that lead you to a conclusion  27 that the boundary as it's shown in this exhibit,  28 661-H, should be adjusted?  29 A   Yes.  30 Q   And can you tell us when those discussions occurred  31 that led to that conclusion?  32 A  At the same time that I talked to Walter Blackwater  33 and he defined more accurately the boundary, the north  34 boundary just east of the Nass River, I described this  35 this morning when I was describing the territory of  36 Wii Minosik, how there was a slight change to come  37 down.  It breaks away from the height of land where I  38 had extrapolated along the height of land.  In fact,  39 it included a tributary of Xsi Lax Uu Ando'o, X-s-i  40 space L-a-x space U-u space A-n-d-o-'-o.  There's no  41 English name on the map for that creek, but I defined  42 that this morning, and also Nancy and Walter informed  43 me that only that creek and the headwaters of that  44 creek belonged to Luus, not the creek that flowed to  45 the east opposite that, which is known as Xsi Lax Uu,  46 X-s-i space L-a-x space U-u.  That appears on the map  47 as Shilahou, S-h-i-1-a-h-o-u. 7777  N. Sterritt (For Plaintiff)  In chief by Mr. Rush  1  Q  2  3  A  4  5  Q  6  7  A  8  9  Q  10  11  A  12  Q  13  A  14  15  Q  16  17  A  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  THE  COURT  26  A  27  THE  COURT  28  A  29  MR.  RUSH:  30  Q  31  32  33  34  A  35  36  37  THE  COURT  38  39  40  A  41  MR.  RUSH:  42  Q  43  44  45  46  A  47  And when were you instructed about that by Nancy  Supernault and Walter Blackwater?  I think in some of the notes that I would have had not  long after the field trip.  That's the field trip in September of 1986, September  7th to be exact?  Yes.  And then discussions that I had with Walter  Blackwater later.  And when you say later, what time frame would you put  on that?  In 1988.  That would be in the January, February period of 1988?  I think it's a little later than that.  I think it's  March, April.  All right.  Now, can you explain to the court what the  reason for the adjustment was?  I was having difficulty with the two names, Xsi Lax  Uu, X-s-i space L-a-x space U-u and Xsi lax Uu Ando'o  and to what extent it was on both sides, and finally  when Nancy and Walter informed me that Gwinin Nitxw  owned all of Xsi Lax Uu, X-s-i space L-a-x space U-u,  and that only Xsi Lax Uu Ando'o was the territory of  Luus, and Xsi Lax Uu Ando'o is X-s-i space L-a-x space  U-u space A-n-d-o-'-o.  :  A-n-d-'-o-o?  A-n-d-o-'-o.  :  Oh.  What that means is Xsi Lax Uu, "On the other side".  And Mr. Sterritt, I wonder if you would just step off  the witness stand and look at 9A, please.  And are the  changes about which you were instructed reflected in  map 9A?  Yes.  The map that appears there is reflected here,  and map 9A appears as the black line only on the creek  flowing to the Nass River.  It's a small area.  :  You told me that Nancy Supernault told you that one  of these portions belonged to someone else.  Who was  it that you said that she said it belonged to?  Gwinin Nikw, G-w-i-n-i-n space N-i-k-w.  Mr. Sterritt, I just ask you to look at map 8, please.  If you can look at the red line on map 8, and I would  ask you if some of the changes that you were  instructed about are reflected on map 8?  Yes.  They also appear on map 8, part of the changes.  The change to only include the creek that flows to the 777?  N. Sterritt (For Plaintiff)  In chief by Mr. Rush  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  MR.  THE  MR.  THE  MR.  MR.  MR.  MR.  MR.  MR.  RUSH:  COURT  RUSH:  COURT  RUSH:  Q  Nass appears on map 8, and the change defining that  departs from the height of land to include one creek  appears on map 9A between map 8 and map 9A.  All right, thank you.  Am I correct in that map 8 is the same as Exhibit 5?  Yes.  Yes, thank you.  All right, Mr. Sterritt you can set that aside.  I'm  going to -- just give me a moment, my Lord, please.  Mr. Sterritt, I'm going to show you a map which is  labelled "Delgamuukw" in the bottom right-hand corner,  and this map is stamped "Draft copy" on its face.  A   Yes.  Q   Just ask you if you can identify that map?  A   Yes, I can.  Q   Okay.  And what is that map?  A   That is the -- within the dark lines is the territory  of Delgamuukw.  RUSH:  All right.  GOLDIE:  Is this an exhibit?  RUSH:  No.  GOLDIE:  Do we have it?  RUSH:  Q   My Lord, this map is the interrogatory response of  Delgamuukw, Albert Tait, of August the 7th, 1986, and  is the map that was attached to that interrogatory  response.  I'm placing the -- for my purposes, I'm  simply placing the map before Mr. Sterritt.  Now, Mr.  Sterritt, did you receive certain information from  hereditary chiefs which you passed onto Marvin George  and from which he drew a boundary and indicated the  territory as shown on that map?  A   Yes, I did.  Q   All right.  And who instructed you about this  territory?  A  Albert Tait, Percy Sterritt.  Q   Yes?  A   Richard Benson, David Gunanoot.  That's all I recall  at the moment -- oh, and Pete Muldoe.  Q   Pete Muldoe?  A   Yes.  Earl Muldoe, Ken Muldoe.  Q   Now, can you advise the court as to when you were  instructed about this territory?  A   The notes would go back into the 1970's.  Q   All right.  Are they contained in your field  notebooks? 7779  N. Sterritt (For Plaintiff)  In chief by Mr. Rush  1  A  2  3  4  5  Q  6  7  A  8  Q  9  A  10  Q  11  12  A  13  Q  14  A  15  Q  16  17  A  18  Q  19  20  A  21  Q  22  A  23  Q  24  25  26  27  A  28  29  30  Q  31  A  32  Q  33  A  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  Q  41  42  A  43  Q  44  45  46  A  47    I  MR. RUSH  They could be very sketchy notes in the 1970's, and  there should be -- there may even be passing reference  to some of the areas within there in my journals we  haven't -- that's the --  Did the journals precede your field book notes of  1970?  Yes, they do.  All right.  There's two journals.  As I understand it your field notebooks start in what,  1979?  Yes, about then.  And your journals precede that?  Yes.  All right.  Now, are they -- are there notes contained  elsewhere about this territory?  In my field book.  Would there be topo sheets in relation to this  territory?  There should be some information on topo sheets, yes.  Yes, all right.  On the white binder maps as well.  All right.  Now, Mr. Sterritt, I would just ask you to  review that map and would ask you if subsequent  information came to you from hereditary chiefs which  led to any adjustments in that boundary?  The only change is the one that I referred to when we  discussed the territory of Tsi Basaa, T-s-i space  B-a-s-a-a.  Yes?  And Antgulilbix, A-n-t-g-u-1-i-l-b-i-x, this morning.  Yes?  And that is where the boundary departs from the height  of land between the Kispiox drainage and the  Kwinageese drainage, K-w-i-n-a-g-e-e-s-e, which is the  Nass drainage, Nass River drainage.  It departs to  come down and cross a small creek at a waterfall just  north of Williams Lake, Tarn Lax Tsinaast, T-a-m space  L-a-x space T-s-i-n-a-a-s-t.  That's the waterfall you spoke of this morning in  relation to Antgulilbix's territory?  Yes.  All right.  Now, apart from that change, were there  any other adjustments in that boundary that you can  see?  No.  Would you please step off the witness stand and refer 7780  N. Sterritt (For Plaintiff)  In chief by Mr. Rush  1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  MR.  MR.  MR.  MR.  to 9A, please.  GOLDIE:  A question of clarification for me, please.  I  didn't get a note of the date when the adjustment  information was given to the witness, I'm sorry.  RUSH:  Q  Sterritt, can you  It was given this morning, but Mr.  tell us again about that, please?  A   I think it would be about April or May in 1987, and as  I recall there should be a note in the Pete Muldoe  notes, or he actually showed me -- he saw a map and  said "This is wrong and this change has to be made",  and Mary Johnson referred to it, and it should appear  in her -- she said the same thing, it should appear in  her notes as well at that time, April, May of 1987.  GOLDIE:  Thank you.  RUSH:  Q   All right, Mr. Sterritt, would you just step off the  witness stand and look at first map A8, that is  overlay map 8, and is the change that you've indicated  reflected on map 8 of the Kwinageese territory?  A It's -- yes. It does go through where the waterfall  is .  Q   If you'll just examine 9A and map 8?  A   Yes.  Q All right. Is there a difference between those two in  that area that you've indicated?  A Yes. The map 9A comes further from -- further along  the height of land over to the waterfall rather than  more directly down on map 8.  Q   All right.  And does map 9A reflect the changes, as  you understand it?  A   Yes.  Q All right. Apart from that one area, Mr. Sterritt, is  there any other change between the map that's in front  of you and map 8 and map 9A, which are overlays?  A  THE COURT:  A  THE COURT  A  No.  Well, then it seems to me, Mr. Sterritt, that two  changes were made; one reflected in 8 and the other  one reflected in 9A?  I think that that may be a drafting error, because --  Which one would be?  The one between 8 and 9A, because of the -- it's  fairly flat land, and the draftsman may have followed  what he thought was a height of land, but if you -- so  it would have to -- it would be a matter of height of  land in that area.  We would have to sort that out.  It may be a drafting error. 7781  N. Sterritt (For Plaintiff)  In chief by Mr. Rush  1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  THE COURT:  Well, are you saying that you didn't receive any  information that would indicate the change between 8A  and the difference between 8 and 9A?  A   That's right.  On the map that I have in front of me  there appears to be a height of land which leaves some  water stranded on top of a hill, and I think that that  line has gone through that area.  That would be wrong,  so I think it's a drafting error.  I think that the  change that should probably be map 8, that's the one  that should reflect it, and it's what I talked about  this morning with Mary Johnson territory.  THE COURT:  You think the drafting error is in 9A?  A   That's the way it appears according to this, yes.  It  depends on the drainage.  It should follow the  drainage until it leaves to cross the waterfall, so I  would have to check that out.  Marvin George would be  able to speak to that.  THE COURT:  Thank you.  MR. GOLDIE:  The note that I now have, which I hope is a correct  reflection of the discussion that has just ensued, was  that the correct change is found on map 8.  The change  that is found on map 8 may be a spurious change.  By  spurious, I mean no more than what the witness has  described as a drafting error.  Um-hum.  Yes, that's --  THE  MR.  COURT  A  RUSH:  Q  A  Q  A  MR. RUSH  THE  MR.  THE  THE  MR.  THE  MR.  Map 8, overlay map 8 is -- conforms with the  information that you were instructed about from the  hereditary chiefs, is that right?  That's correct.  And map 9A does not appear to conform to that  information?  Yes.  And it would -- depends on a closer examination  of the drainage in that area.  All right, thank you, Mr. Sterritt.  Can that be  marked as an exhibit, please.  COURT:  Any objection?  GOLDIE:  For identification, my Lord.  COURT:  All right.  And the number?  REGISTRAR:  The next number is 682 for identification.  RUSH:  I have no objection to it being for identification.  COURT:  Thank you.  GOLDIE:  Well, I think in light of what the witness has  said, it has to be. 7782  N. Sterritt (For Plaintiff)  In chief by Mr. Rush  1 EXHIBIT 682 FOR IDENTIFICATION - Map of  2 Kwinageese's territory  3  4 MR. RUSH:  I have only one copy, my Lord.  5 THE COURT:  Yes.  6 MR. GOLDIE:  Could I ask the registrar how that exhibit is being  7 described, please, 682?  8 THE REGISTRAR:  Well, I have it as draft copy, Delgamuukw map  9 with interrogatory responses of Albert Tait, August  10 the 7th, 1986.  11 MR. GOLDIE:  Well, I don't think it contains that information, I  12 think.  13 THE COURT:  Not with, form —  14 MR. GOLDIE:  From anything.  I think it's absolutely silent in  15 that regard, and the interrogatory maps have a  16 description on them.  I assume it is, I haven't  17 compared it with the interrogatory map.  18 THE REGISTRAR:  There is nothing on it.  19 MR. GOLDIE:  It is not identified on its face as coming from an  20 interrogatory.  21 THE REGISTRAR:  No.  22 MR. RUSH:  I just point out, my Lord, that the labelling on the  23 previous interrogatory maps for the most part was done  24 by my learned friend.  The absence of a label is not  25 decisive as to whether or not it's an interrogatory  26 response, but what I can say is that I don't have any  27 objection to this being marked as an exhibit  28 identified as the Kwinageese territory of Delgamuukw,  29 which is exactly as Mr. Sterritt has identified it.  30 MR. GOLDIE:  I agree with that.  31 THE COURT:  Yes, all right.  32 MR. GOLDIE:  I might add that the maps that we have and which we  33 have identified were those attached to an affidavit.  34 THE COURT:  Yes.  35 MR. GOLDIE:  And this is not.  3 6 THE COURT:  Yes.  37 MR. RUSH:  Okay.  And that's, as I say, it's a draft copy.  38 MR. COURT:  You said, Mr. Sterritt, that Kwinageese is the Nass  39 drainage.  I take it you're not suggesting that  40 Kwinageese is another name for Nass?  41 A   No.  42 THE COURT:  No?  43 A   Kwinageese drains to the Nass.  44 THE COURT:  Yes, all right.  45 A   Yeah.  4 6 MR. RUSH:  47 Q   All right.  I'm now showing you a map which is marked 7783  N. Sterritt (For Plaintiff)  In chief by Mr. Rush  1  1  2  3  A  4  Q  5  A  6  7  Q  8  9  i  10  11  A  12  Q  13  A  14  MR.  RUSH:  15  16  MR.  GOLDIE  17  MR.  RUSH:  18  THE  COURT:  19  MR.  RUSH:  20  Q  21  22  23  24  A  25  Q  26  A  27  28  Q  29  A  30  Q  31  A  32  33  34  Q  35  36  37  38  A  39  40  41  Q  42  43  44  45  A  46  Q  47  A  Gyetemgaldo, G-y-e-t-e-m-g-a-1-d-o, and stamped "Draft  copy".  Can you identify this?  Yes, I can.  And what is it?  It's the territory of Gyetemgaldo on the Suskwa River  east of Hazelton.  All right.  And I want to ask you to refer to a  pencilled lettering at the bottom that says "Not up to  date", looks like "NJS April 7", is it, or "9"?  April  7th, 1987.  Did you put that lettering there?  That's my lettering.  And was it put on there on that date?  Yes.  You have a copy of that, yes, attached to the  interrogatory response of --  :  Without the superscription, I take it.  Without the writing on it.  It's not an exhibit?  It's not an exhibit.  Now, Mr. Sterritt, did you  obtain instructions from hereditary chiefs with  respect to this territorial boundary and the  territory?  Yes, I did.  And from whom did you receive those instructions?  From Ben McKenzie, Luutkudziiwus,  L-u-u-t-k-u-d-z-i-i-w-u-s, and that was in 1979.  Yes.  And that was recorded in a field notebook?  It appears on loose-leaf notes.  Anyone else?  David Green talked to me about this, and I think that  it will appear in my field books, and I can't tell you  what years that would be.  Um-hum.  Now, Mr. Sterritt, I wonder if you could just  step off the witness stand and show the general area  where this territory is located by reference to map  9A?  Babine Lake is on the east side of this map, and the  territory that this map depicts is immediately west of  Babine Lake below the Suskwa, S-u-s-k-w-a, River.  Now, were you instructed by hereditary chiefs about  changes in this territory that date subsequent to  your -- the information you received from Mr. McKenzie  and Mr. David Green?  Yes.  All right.  And who instructed you about the changes?  David Green. 7784  N. Sterritt (For Plaintiff)  In chief by Mr. Rush  1  Q  2  A  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  Q  10  A  11  MR.  GOLDI  12  A  13  MR.  RUSH:  14  Q  15  A  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  Q  24  A  25  Q  26  A  27  Q  28  A  29  Q  30  A  31  MR.  RUSH:  32  33  34  MR.  GOLDI  35  36  A  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  MR.  RUSH:  44  Q  45  A  46  Q  47  Yes?  In March or April, at least in the spring of 1988,  David Green told me that the boundary -- west boundary  of this territory crossed the Suskwa River, which is  known as Wii Sas Goo, W-i-i space S-a-s space G-o-o,  opposite 18 Mile Creek, which is some eight or so  miles -- pardon me, no, it would be three or four  miles to the west.  West of?  Of this map.  E:  West of the map?  Well, west of this area below the Suskwa River.  All right.  Were there --  And that the territory -- the boundary, as you see it  on the west here, is approximately correct.  It comes  in very close to the Suskwa River and crosses Xsi an  Djam Lan, X-s-i space A-n space D-j-a-m space L-a-n,  which appears on the map, topographic map, as Harold  Price Creek.  It crosses that creek and then goes up a  mountain An Djam Lan, that's A-n space D-j-a-m space  L-a-n, which appears on the map as Blunt Mountain.  Is that mountain shown on this map?  No, it's not.  Is it off the map?  Yes.  Then I take it that would be off to the north-west?  Off to the west.  All right.  Directly west.  Okay.  Were there any other changes in the  description of the boundary from the way it's depicted  on this map?  E:  If I follow the witness correctly, the west  boundary is not capable of being shown on that map?  That's right.  There's not enough of the map here.  I  believe that the eastern boundary is approximately  correct, but I don't have enough information here to  be able to define that.  The southern boundary is --  looks correct to me, but the western boundary -- or  pardon me, the northern boundary is correct in running  along the Suskwa River.  All right.  And you can't see the western boundary on here.  Mr. Sterritt, were you instructed about this territory  and any adjustments by any other hereditary chief than 7785  N. Sterritt (For Plaintiff)  In chief by Mr. Rush  1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  MR.  MR.  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  MR. RUSH  THE  MR.  THE  THE  MR.  MR.  THE  THE  MR.  THE  MR.  David Green?  To the extent that a feature was identified, the  mountain An Djam Lan, Steve Robinson.  When would that have been?  It would be in the spring of 1988.  Notes kept of them at that time?  I think there should be notes of that with Steve  Robinson's notes.  GOLDIE:  How about David Green's?  RUSH:  And Mr. Green?  Yes.  Same period?  Yes.  So both in respect of Mr. Green and Mr. Robinson there  would be a note in the loose-leaf notes in the spring  of 1987 -- '88?  1988, yes.  All right.  Now, would you just step off the witness  stand and look at the territory that's shown on map  9A, and does map 9A, Mr. Sterritt, reflect the changes  in the boundary description about which you were  instructed?  Yes.  If you follow the southern boundary, it pinches  in at Harold Price Creek and goes up onto Blunt  Mountain and follows the height of land north-west to  opposite 18 Mile Creek, yes.  All right, thank you.  Now, may that be marked as an  exhibit, my Lord.  Yes.  Thank you.  REGISTRAR:  Exhibit number 683.  COURT:  Should that be for identification?  RUSH:  I'm content to have it marked in that way.  GOLDIE:  I think so, my Lord.  COURT:  All right, thank you.  REGISTRAR:  This will be the Gyetemgaldo territory.  RUSH:  Gyetemgaldo territory, yes.  REGISTRAR:  Thank you.  COURT  RUSH:  EXHIBIT 683 FOR IDENTIFICATION  Gyetemgaldo territory  Draft map of  RUSH:  Q  Mr. Sterritt, I'm going to show you another map,  this -- show you a map, Mr. Sterritt, that is stamped  "Draft copy" and is labelled schedule B, and in the 7786  N. Sterritt (For Plaintiff)  In chief by Mr. Rush  1 bottom right-hand corner printed the word Ma'uus,  2 M-a-'-u-u-s, and below that "Scale 1 to 50,000".  Do  3 you recognize this map?  4 A   Yes, I do.  5 Q   And what is it a map of?  6 A   It's a map of the territory of Ma'uus on the west side  7 of the Kispiox River just above the Village of  8 Kispiox.  9 Q   All right.  And were you provided with information  10 from hereditary chiefs about that area?  11 A   Yes, I was.  12 Q   From whom?  13 A  Martha Brown.  14 Q   Is that the Martha Brown who held the name of Kliiyem  15 Lax Haa that's now passed on?  16 A   Yes.  17 THE REGISTRAR:  That's number 35 on the list.  18 A  Albert Tait.  19 MR. RUSH:  20 Q   Yes?  21 A   Pete Muldoe, Percy Sterritt, my father, Neil Sterritt,  22 David Gunanoot, Jeff Harris, Jr.  23 Q   Do you have notes of those instructions?  24 A   Yes.  In my field books.  25 Q   What period?  26 A  Well, I think that some of the material -- just it  27 would be a passing reference but would go right back  28 to the journals that I had.  29 Q   So there would be references in your journals and your  30 field notebooks?  31 A   Yes.  Well, definitely in my field books, and also in  32 my journals, or in one of the journals at least, and  33 on the topo sheets, some of the information would be  34 from Chris Harris, Chris Harris' notes.  That's what I  35 recall at this time.  36 Q   All right.  And that information was passed onto  37 Marvin George, who drafted this map?  38 A   Yes.  39 Q   Now, were there any instructions that you received  40 subsequent to the drafting of that map that led you to  41 conclude there were adjustments to the boundary?  42 A   Yes.  43 Q   And from whom did you receive that information?  44 A   Jeff Harris, Sr., Percy Sterritt, and this is the --  45 this was where I discovered this information while  46 Mary Johnson was in cross-examination, and I think I  47 mentioned in towards the end of June -- it was towards 7787  N. Sterritt (For Plaintiff)  In chief by Mr. Rush  1  2  3  4  Q  5  A  6  7  8  9  10  Q  11  A  12  Q  13  14  15  A  16  17  Q  18  A  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  Q  26  A  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  Q  36  A  37  Q  38  39  A  40  Q  41  A  42  THE COURT  43  MR. RUSH:  44  Q  45  46  A  47  the end of May that Mary Johnson was in  cross-examination where I realized that Date Creek ran  one way and that Xsu Amuk(Phonetics) ran another way.  Yes?  And also that there was further information about the  territory of Amagyet within that area, A-m-a-g-e-t,  and that -- which reminds me that Stanley Wilson also  provided me with later information that helped me to  define this territory better.  That's the Stanley Wilson who holds the name Tsibasaa?  Yes.  That's 66.  Now, when did you receive the information  from Jeff Harris, Sr. and Percy Sterritt and Stanley  Wilson?  In May of 19 -- well, Percy Sterritt and Jeff Harris,  that information was in May of 1987.  Is that in your loose-leaf notes?  Yes, it is.  I have extensive sketches because I was  sorting this out and I located myself along with Jeff  Harris, Sr. in a spot where I could see the mountains  and the creek valley, and made extensive sketches of  this area, and he provided me with a tremendous amount  of detail about Ma'uus' territory and that area, that  is Jeff Harris, Sr. did.  And Stanley Wilson?  Stanley Wilson prior to -- in a discussion that I had  with him prior to the court case opening defined -- I  was still under the misunderstanding about the Date  Creek area, but defined a Wolf -- a small Wolf  territory in there, and I attempted to locate that,  and then when I went with Jeff Harris, Sr., he  identified exactly where that Wolf territory was, and  also what the features were that defined the borders  of that territory.  Yes.  And the Wolf territory of which chief?  Amagyet.  And what was the date again of your discussion with  Stanley Wilson?  It may have been in April.  Of 1987?  Of 1987.  It may have been early May of 1987.  :  Can you pick a convenient time to adjourn, Mr. Rush?  Yes.  I'll just ask whether or not that discussion  with Mr. Wilson was contained in a field note?  Yes.  I made a record of that.  I think it's in --  there is a note on that. 77?  N. Sterritt (For Plaintiff)  In chief by Mr. Rush  1 Q   In the field notes?  2 A   Yes.  3 Q   Or in the loose-leaf?  4 A   In the loose-leaf notes, yes.  5 MR. RUSH:  All right, thank you.  That will be convenient.  6 THE COURT:  Yes, all right, thank you.  We'll adjourn until ten  7 o'clock tomorrow morning, thank you.  8  9  10  11  12 (PROCEEDINGS ADJOURNED)  13  14 I hereby certify the foregoing to be  15 a true and accurate transcript of the  16 proceedings herein transcribed to the  17 best of my skill and ability  18  19  20  21  22 Graham D. Parker  23 Official Reporter  24 United Reporting Service Ltd.  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47

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