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Delgamuukw Trial Transcripts

[Proceedings of the Supreme Court of British Columbia 1988-06-29] British Columbia. Supreme Court Jun 29, 1988

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 7400  N.J. Sterritt (for Plaintiffs)  Re-in chief by Mr. Rush  1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  THE  THE  MS.  THE  MR.  THE  MR.  VANCOUVER, B.C.  June 29, 198 8  REGISTRAR:  In the Supreme Court of British Columbia, this  Wednesday, June 29th, 1988.  Calling Delgamuukw versus  Her Majesty the Queen at bar, My Lord.  I caution the  witness, you are still under oath.  COURT:  Miss Koenigsberg.  KOENIGSBERG:  I have no cross-examination at this time.  COURT:  Mr. Rush, re-examination?  Thank you, My Lord.  Certain questions were read to  you by Mr. Goldie from the examination for discovery  transcript volume 2 at page 173.  Page again?  173.  Questions were read up to question 982.  At  question 983, Mr. Sterritt, you were asked this  question and you gave the following answers:  RUSH:  COURT  RUSH:  "983  984  Q  A  Q  A  I'm not talking house history?  You were a minute ago.  You informed yourself on other  matters from the chiefs.  I take  that you are now telling me that  have never informed yourself on  history from the chiefs?  Hereditary chiefs know their  histories in detail."  it  you  Question 985 --  THE COURT:  Sorry, Mr. rush.  That's K-n-o-w.  MR. RUSH:  Yes.  THE COURT:  "Hereditary chiefs know their histories", the  chief's comment "know".  MR. RUSH:  Q   I'm sorry.  "Hereditary chiefs know their histories in  detail".  "985   Q      That is not my question?  A      I am aware of some of the history, I  am not aware of the details."  Were you asked those questions, Mr. Sterritt, and did  you give those answers?  A   Yes, I did.  MR. RUSH:  And were those —  MR. GOLDIE:  My Lord, I'm not objecting to what is highly  irregular procedure of reading examination for 7401  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  N.J. Sterritt (for Plaintiffs)  Re-in chief by Mr. Rush  Submissions  discovery because I invited my friend to read those,  but I will object to anything like this further.  Yes.  Well, I don't know what the point of that comment is,  my Lord, because I asked my learned friend to read on  from the transcript.  That's right.  GOLDIE:  And I invited him to do so.  RUSH:  And given that, what is the point of my learned  friend's comment?  GOLDIE:  I wanted to make it perfectly clear I was not  objecting to what would otherwise be a highly  irregular procedure.  Well, I appreciate my learned friend -- there would  be no need for this procedure had my friend put those  questions in the way they should have been put.  Those  are my questions.  Yeah, all right.  THE COURT  MR. RUSH:  THE COURT  MR  MR  MR  MR. RUSH:  THE COURT  MR. RUSH:  Q  I'm sorry, I didn't complete my last question.  Were  the comments that you made, were those answers that  you gave there true?  A   Yes.  MR. RUSH:  Thank you.  THE COURT:  All right, thank you.  THE COURT:  Mr. Goldie.  MR. GOLDIE:  Now, my Lord, in my submission the witness is not  qualified to express opinions on the basis of his  education or on the basis of any knowledge that he may  have gained as a result of becoming the holder of a  name which qualifies him as a hereditary chief.  The  only question then is whether his experience in the  mining field would allow him to express an opinion  with respect to what is found on a map.  This goes  back, of course, to the objection with respect to  translating the information given him by hereditary  chiefs onto a map.  The experience that he has had in  the mining industry is that which is common to anyone  who has occasion to use maps on the ground.  I don't  think I can put it very much higher than that.  The  plain table experience is the experience of one who is  assisted in the locating of local features on a  relatively small scale and bears no relationship to  the difficulty of translating information gleened with  respect to a 22 thousand square mile area onto maps,  either in the form of translating that information  onto government maps or the creation of what purport 7402  Submissions  1 to be new maps.  The -- I have no doubt at all that  2 Mr. Sterritt has extensive experience in relating  3 natural features to topographic maps.  That's what he  4 did for a good part of his career, if I understand him  5 correctly, but that I classify as map using.  It seems  6 to me, with respect, my Lord, that the -- the  7 expertise or skill that we are talking about is that  8 of a cartographer, and as the -- as the plaintiffs  9 have said, they're calling one.  Anything that Mr.  10 Sterritt can do, again if I understand the evidence  11 correctly, simply duplicates that of Mr. George.  The  12 gathering of the information is recorded and doesn't  13 need the witness to describe it beyond what he has  14 already done, and presumably it gains nothing from  15 being read to your Lordship in court.  The witness'  16 evidence, both in respect to his qualifications and in  17 respect to the evidence that he's given since he came  18 on the stand, seems quite clear that he originates no  19 information.  He is -- he is a conduit of information.  2 0 The judgment that appears to have been applied  21 appears -- so far as I understand this process --  22 appears to be the judgment required by a cartographer,  23 and that is the transformation of the -- of the  24 evidence in Mr. Sterritt's field notebooks, in the  25 evidence of his topographic survey forms, the evidence  26 in the loose-leaf scribblers.  The transformation of  27 that evidence into a metes and bounds description or  28 into lines on a map which purport to be boundaries, in  29 my submission, at least on the basis of Mr. Sterritt's  30 evidence to date, appear to fall outside the nature of  31 his experience when he was working for the mining  32 companies.  33 THE COURT:  Thank you.  Miss Koenigsberg.  34 MS. KOENIGSBERG:  I don't think I can really add anything to  35 what Mr. Goldie has said.  Certainly we have concerns  36 as to I believe Mr. Sterritt's qualifications as an  37 expert in the area of cartography, and it is our  38 understanding that a cartographer will be called who  39 can give that evidence, and on that basis we should  40 agree that he is not qualified as an expert.  There  41 may be other areas of evidence that he would give in  42 which his skill and experience which he's gained may  43 be of assistance.  We can't comment.  It's not,  44 frankly, very clear at this point what evidence,  45 further evidence he will give that where he would be  46 qualified.  47 THE COURT:  All right, thank you.  I don't need to hear you, Mr. 7403  Ruling  Submissions  1 Rush.  I think this is a difficult question and one  2 that is fraught with some danger.  The usual test for  3 the determination of whether a person is qualified to  4 give an opinion is whether by education or training or  5 experience a person can give a useful opinion on a  6 fact or question in issue.  In my view, the extent of  7 Mr. Sterritt's professional education goes to the  8 question of weight, and that experience is sufficient  9 to permit him to express an opinion that may or may  10 not be persuasive.  I say opinion; I mean opinions or  11 opinions that may or may not be persuasive, but that  12 is a question that can only be answered at the end of  13 the trial.  I am troubled by the fact that the  14 opinions with which I'm now concerned may be the  15 result of a joint process with Mr. George and others,  16 but I've been informed that Mr. George would also be  17 tendered as an expert in cartology, and that gives me  18 some comfort.  I'm not sure that this is a case that  19 can be treated as being black and white, either that a  20 person is going to be able to express a final opinion  21 or whether he's only going to be able to express an  22 opinion which together with other opinions may be  23 sufficient to prove or to let or leave unproved a fact  24 in issue, and I think that the nature of Mr.  25 Sterritt's experience is sufficient at this stage for  26 me to hear his evidence, reserving for further  27 consideration the question of weight and the other  28 considerations that go into the use that is made of  29 the evidence at the end of the trial.  You may  30 proceed, Mr. Rush, if you're ready.  31 MR. GOLDIE:  My Lord, I have a — I take it that your Lordship  32 has now qualified -- ruled on his qualifications and  33 that any evidence that he would give from here on in  34 is in his guise as an expert.  35 THE COURT:  Well, in relation to the representation of features  36 and boundaries on maps, yes.  37 MR. GOLDIE:  Yes.  The -- and of course that carries with it  38 the -- I would assume my friend would at least say  39 carries with it the right to express opinions with  40 respect to the accuracy of those lines?  41 THE COURT:  Yes.  In the sense that they represent what has been  42 reported on, that is that they represent on the maps  43 the information upon which the process is based.  44 MR. GOLDIE:  Yes.  45 THE COURT:  I'm not making any determination, for example, that  46 everything the witness has been told is either  47 admissible or necessarily accurate.  Those matters are 7404  Submissions  1 large.  2 MR. GOLDIE:  I think even with the scope that your Lordship has  3 outlined, it gives rise to a situation in which I have  4 to record an objection to the witness proceeding in  5 his present guise as an expert.  As your Lordship is  6 aware, section 11(1) of the Evidence Act provides, and  7 I quote:  8  9 "No person shall give within the scope of his  10 expertise evidence of his opinion in a proceeding  11 unless a statement in writing of his opinion and  12 the facts upon which the opinion is formed has  13 been furnished at least 30 days before the expert  14 testifies to every party who are adverse in  15 interest to the party tendering the evidence  16 of the expert."  17  18 The 11(1.1) (A) provides that your Lordship has:  19  20 "On the application of a party or on his own  21 initiative, where no statement has been furnished,  22 order that the expert may testify, and where a  23 statement is furnished less than 30 days before  24 the expert to testify, order that he may testify."  25  26 My Lord, yesterday we were furnished with a summary of  27 the opinion or a statement in writing that made  28 passing reference to the summary which was provided us  29 in March of 1987.  Its passing reference is to the  30 extent that the methodology described in the summary  31 was described in that March, 1987 summary, but the  32 opinions which are to be expressed are very different.  33 Even the March summary was incomplete because it  34 referred to a map of the house boundaries, and this is  35 what Mr. Sterritt said in March of 1987.  36 THE COURT:  This is in the summary?  37 MR. GOLDIE:  This is in the summary.  3 8    THE COURT:  Yes.  39 MR. GOLDIE:  I have reviewed and am in the process of reviewing  40 the boundaries of each of the house chiefs'  41 territories within the Gitksan-Wet'suwet'en territory  42 as a whole.  There are precisely delineated boundaries  43 of each of the house territories owned by the  44 hereditary chiefs.  45  46 "I can map those house boundaries based on  47 information provided to me by the hereditary 7405  Submissions  1 chiefs.  This house territory boundaries will  2 appear on a map.  Both the map itself and my  3 instructions for its preparation are in the  4 process of being finalized."  5  6 That map, my Lord, was delivered yesterday.  Now,  7 notwithstanding the fact that trial Exhibit 5 was --  8 we were advised was a final map in the course of the  9 trial, it began to -- began to take on the  10 characteristics of the cat in Alice in Wonderland.  It  11 began to disappear leaving nothing but it's grin  12 behind.  Mr. Grant's letter of May the 11th, 1987,  13 covering the delivery to us of what became trial  14 Exhibit 5, stated in paragraph 2, and I quote:  15  16 "I have been instructed that this is a correct  17 copy of the internal boundaries with the names  18 of the chiefs of those territories marked  19 thereon."  20  21 We rather naturally assumed that that was the map that  22 Mr. Sterritt referred to in the summary of his  23 opinion.  Now it is apparent that that is not the map,  24 and that the map which was delivered yesterday  25 contains significant variations from that which is  26 found at trial Exhibit 5.  27 THE COURT:  Is the map that was delivered yesterday different  28 from the map -- which one is it on this -- map 4?  29 MR. GOLDIE:  As your Lord -- is your Lordship referring to map  30 8?  31 THE COURT:  Well, I'm not sure.  Map 8 is the external  32 boundries -- I'm sorry.  It has graft internal  33 boundaries dated May 2nd.  I suppose it's map 8 --  34 different from this overlay map I was given last week?  35 MR. GOLDIE:  It differs from every map that has gone before.  36 That's on the basis of our overnight examination of  37 it, and that's both external and internal.  Now, your  38 Lordship will recall that we received -- about the  39 time Mr. Sterritt was called to the stand we received  40 a large number of affidavits which purport to verify  41 territories.  Those affidavits contain metes and  42 bounds description which -- descriptions which the  43 plaintiff did -- which Mr. Sterritt certainly had a  44 hand in.  Now, it is obvious that if we are going to  45 test map 9A we are going to have to do so after  46 plotting the metes and bounds description in this last  47 batch of affidavits.  We are going to have to 7406  Submissions  1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  determine accurately, as best we can, the variations  between map A and all that has gone before, and that  of course is the sort of thing we would have done if  we had had the 60-days notice which your Lordship  directed last spring would be.  THE COURT:  9A is the map you were given yesterday?  MR. GOLDIE:  9A is the map we were given yesterday.  And as far  as I'm aware at the present time, and my friend can  correct me if I'm wrong, map 9A is tendered as the  definitive map and it replaces everything that has  gone before.  Now, if I'm wrong in that I wish to be  corrected.  What we had delivered yesterday is a new  opinion with a new map based on new facts, the new  facts being the territorial affidavits.  Now, there's  no -- my friends have offered no reason why this is  done.  It imposes a very substantial -- not hardship,  but prejudice on the defendant.  Now, it -- the  summary in March of 1987 is no longer of any  particular significance.  And as I say, the new  opinion appears to be based primarily on affidavits,  most of which were delivered a week ago.  Your  Lordship will say to me "Well, what's the point of  your objection", and the point is simply this --  Well, before you get to your point, Mr. Goldie, what  is the situation with respect to the balance of the  affidavits relating to Wet'suwet'en territories?  Have  they been delivered?  Not all of them have been delivered, my Lord.  There  are still some to be delivered.  A good number have  been delivered, but not total number.  COURT:  And are the -- are the boundaries for Wet'suwet'en  portions in 9A supported by affidavits in --  RUSH:  The overlay of 9A does not represent the Wet'suwet'en  territories, because the Wet'suwet'en affidavits were  not complete as of the preparation of that.  We were  not in a position to have the overlay for the  Wet'suwet'en territories completed, so 9A does not  depict -- we're trying to get the completed affidavits  together with the completed overlay as soon as we can.  THE COURT:  All right.  MR. GOLDIE:  Well, my concern, of course, is that the  cross-examination was -- that has been prepared today  is completely wide of the mark.  The -- if your  Lordship is going to make an order under 11 (1.1) (A)  or (B), that is to say that the expert may testify,  notwithstanding that the statement has not been  furnished within -- prior to the time stated in the  THE COURT  MR. RUSH  THE  MR. 7407  Submissions  1 Act, then I ask that as a term of the order that at  2 the completion of the witness' examination in chief  3 the cross-examination be deferred until September the  4 12th.  5 THE COURT:  Thank you.  Miss Koenigsberg.  6 MS. KOENIGSBERG:  We of course find ourselves in the same  7 position as the defendant Province, and we have had  8 the opportunity overnight to review quickly the  9 changes in 9A and have noted a number of them  10 sufficient that it will take some time to determine  11 the extent of that, and I would agree that it would be  12 appropriate to have as a term of the order that the  13 cross-examinations be deferred.  It's somewhat  14 difficult to say exactly how long and how far we can  15 get along because we really don't at this point have a  16 very clear idea of how long the examination in chief  17 is going to take.  18 THE COURT:  Yes.  Mr. Rush.  19 MR. RUSH:  The first point I would make is that it is within  20 your power under section 11 to abbreviate the time  21 within which a report made or a statement written,  22 statement of the expert may be delivered and the  23 evidence to be tendered in court -- and that's not --  24 I think not only evident from the section, but --  25 reading the sections, but in the case of Gordons(?),  26 but by way of support for that course of action, in my  27 submission, the report or the summary of the report  28 that was tendered to the defendants in March of 1987  29 substantially set out the area of the expertise of Mr.  30 Sterritt and some of the areas of his opinion.  The  31 end product of the opinion that he will testify today  32 or in the course of his testimony is not the same as  33 that which was proffered in March of 1987, but in my  34 submission there was substantial notice given to the  35 defendants of the nature and type of the expertise  36 that Mr. Sterritt would rely upon and testify to.  The  37 second point is, my Lord, that between March of 1987  38 and the present time there have been upwards of 20  39 hereditary chiefs give testimony, many whom have given  40 direct testimony in relation to affidavits and in  41 relation to maps which they have attested to and had  42 been examined on.  For example, Stanley Williams gave  43 testimony about 24 territories, Pete Muldoe testified  44 to 17, James Morrison testified to 7, Mr. Alfred  45 Mitchell testified to 3.  Now, I say this, my Lord,  46 because in their testimony the underlying facts of the  47 opinion that Mr. Sterritt will address is there to be 7408  Submissions  1 found.  There is also the fact of the testimony of  2 those chiefs who have spoken directly to their  3 territories' boundaries, and in my submission they  4 have been tested, and the nature of Mr. Sterritt's  5 opinion, in my submission, is certainly underlaid and  6 foreshadowed in their testimony.  The maps that were  7 addressed in court by the chiefs in their testimony  8 are themselves represented on overlay map 9A.  The  9 question that I think your Lordship has to face is  10 whether or not, as Mr. Goldie says, he has been  11 prejudiced in the belated delivery of the opinion  12 written statement of Mr. Sterritt and the map, and in  13 my submission there is no substantial prejudice, if  14 any prejudice at all, given the length of time that my  15 friends have had the report, from March of 1987, and  16 as well the opportunity that my friends have had and  17 exercised to the fullest in respect to the  18 cross-examination of the hereditary chiefs about their  19 territories and their boundaries.  In my submission,  20 my Lord, with regard -- and so it's my submission that  21 your Lordship should proceed with the evidence and  22 hear the evidence now.  It is, however, my position  23 that with regard to any condition that your Lordship  24 might see should be placed upon or qualify the  25 plaintiff's right to proceed with the tendering of Mr.  26 Sterritt's evidence as an expert, that it is not, in  27 my view, appropriate to have the direct examination  28 completed and the cross-examination put over until  29 September.  If your Lordship is at all persuaded by a  30 qualifying -- qualifying provision or requirement in  31 any order with respect to proceeding with Mr.  32 Sterritt's evidence, it is our submission that no --  33 that the direct evidence would not complete prior to  34 the case being adjourned for the continuation to allow  35 the -- to allow further time to lapse for the  36 preparation of the cross-examination.  It was going to  37 be my submission, and it is of concern, my Lord, that  38 a witness hangs over the summer break.  I don't think  39 that is a desirable course of action, and it's my  40 submission that any -- if your Lordship is persuaded  41 by that argument, then I will make a submission to you  42 that Mr. Sterritt's direct examination not be  43 completed.  But in my submission the present status of  44 things is not such that my friends have been  45 substantially or adversely affected by the belated  46 presentation of the map 9A and of the written  47 statement by Mr. Sterritt. 7409  Ruling  1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  THE COURT:  Thank you.  Any reply?  MR. GOLDIE:  My Lord, the affidavits which were delivered the  other day deal with some 44 territories.  Your  Lordship may wish to bear in mind that the extension  of the statutory period of 30 days to 60 days was a  matter which was consented to by my friend.  This  occurred on June the 26th, volume 28, at page 1865.  So far as prejudice is concerned, I think it is so  self-evident that I do not intend to enlarge upon it.  THE COURT:  Miss Koenigsberg.  MS. KOENIGSBERG:  I have nothing to add.  THE COURT:  Well, it's been obvious for some time that the  definition of the plaintiff's external and internal  boundaries has been an ongoing process, and it may  have been inevitable that this would arise, but  perhaps not.  There's no profit in dwelling on whether  this could have been avoided.  We have the practical  problem to resolve, and I think the best way to  resolve it, doing the best I can to furnish  substantial fairness to both sides, is to exercise my  discretion and allow the evidence to proceed but to  reserve on the question of terms until Mr. Rush  completes or reaches the end of his presently  anticipated examination in chief and then decide  whether the examination should be kept open and the  cross-examination adjourned or whether the  cross-examination should continue in any event.  I  don't know whether counsel can say whether it's likely  that we will be at the stage where we would be  normally adjourning anyway before the  cross-examination begins, but that's a matter that can  be resolved in due course.  If there is to be a long  delay in between the apparent completion of evidence  in chief and cross-examination I would very likely  leave the evidence in chief open for any matters that  might arise during that period.  I think that's -- I  do not think that will add appreciably to the  defendant's burden, but I will hear counsel in  connection with those matters in due course.  Mr.  Rush, are you able to give any indication of how much  longer you will be in your present anticipated  examination in chief of the witness?  MR. RUSH:  Well —  THE COURT:  I only make the inquiry so that we might think about  scheduling.  MR. RUSH:  Yes, my Lord.  I was endeavouring to finish by this  week, but I must concede that I think it probably 7410  N.J. Sterritt (for Plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Rush  1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  THE COURT  MR. RUSH  THE  MR.  MR.  THE  MR.  THE  THE  MR.  won't be until Monday.  Yes.  Well, if we finish until Monday, and if it's  then Mr. Goldie's -- still Mr. Goldie's position that  he requires time because of the late delivery of the  final opinion, then counsel might consider whether he  should spend the rest of next week on video evidence.  All right.  Are we ready to proceed, Mr. Rush?  All right.  Thank you, my Lord.  We'd interrupted the  direct evidence at the point of my examining Mr.  Sterritt concerning volume 1 of the photographic  volumes, and I would like to pick up from that point.  And I wonder if volume 1 could be placed before Mr.  Sterritt.  REGISTRAR:  It does have the index in now.  RUSH:  Q   Thank you.  Now, Mr. Sterritt, I believe we  interrupted your testimony when you were referring to  page 10 of the first volume of the photographic  volumes, and I now would direct your attention, if you  please, to page 11.  Now, you have in front of you  both the photocopy and the photographs at page 11,  volume 1.  Mr. Sterritt, shown in the photocopies of  the photographs on page 11 are Gitksan names for  certain of the views, and I would ask you to look at  photograph 1 on the left-hand side of that, and it  indicates in the English description of a view  south-west of Atna Pass over Anxbinaawa.  First, can  you tell his Lordship what Anxbinaawa means in  English, if there is an English meaning?  Well, Anxbinaawa refers to an area on the mountain  side that faces south.  In this picture we're looking  south-west, but on the south slope of Anxbinaawa is  the place where the House of Miluulak first  encountered a giant Yox Andi, and the name arises out  of that encounter on that mountain side.  Yox Andi?  Yox Andi is the name of a -- well, a giant who came  into that area and did battle with the House of  Miluulak.  And he was from the east.  Now, Mr. Sterritt, what's the --  Perhaps Mr. Reporter needs a spelling for the giant.  Thank you.  REGISTRAR:  1624.  COURT:  1624, thank you.  RUSH:  Q   In the left-hand side of that photograph, Mr.  Sterritt, there's a name.  It appears to be Taahl an  A  Q  A  RUSH:  COURT  RUSH: 7411  N.J. Sterritt (for Plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Rush  1  2  A  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  THE  COURT  11  A  12  13  14  MR.  RUSH:  15  Q  16  A  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  Q  24  25  A  26  MR.  RUSH:  27  THE  COURT  28  A  29  THE  REGIS1  30  THE  COURT  31  MR.  RUSH:  32  Q  33  34  35  36  37  A  38  39  40  41  Q  42  A  43  MR.  RUSH:  44  Q  45  A  46  Q  47  A  makhl at Atna Pass.  What does that mean?  On the left-hand side of the picture, almost mid  picture, are some mountains in the distances.  They're  quite faint behind the receding front range, and those  are -- that's the mountain Taahl an makhl near or  above Kisgagas, and on the map -- on some topographic  maps that pass is identified, and so that's where that  is.  We are looking south-west towards Kisgagas well  off into the distance about 30 miles away.  :  How many miles?  Thirty. And we are located -- at this point we're  located over or near Xsa an togasxw, the Driftwood  River.  And I think you gave us that name yesterday?  Yes.  And the mountain, you can see the glacier in  this mountain.  That's S'yunn, which I referred to  yesterday, and where the height of land is along the  glacier there is a boundary between the House of  Miluulak and the House of Wii Gaak, and the boundary  runs along that mountain range and on down to over the  other side.  That's an internal boundary.  That glacier you're referring to is on the right-hand  side of the first photograph?  Yes, it is.  Now --  :  And the other chief, Wii Gaak?  Wii Gaak, yes.  That's my father, Neil Sterritt Sr.  PRAR:  73 on the plaintiff's list, my Lord.  :  Thank you.  Now, Mr. Sterritt, just on the right-hand side there  are names given for certain topographical features  there.  I think you've made reference to An skeexs  already.  And I would ask you to refer on the  right-hand side of the photograph, Minhl gwo good?  If you look at the photograph at the mountains in the  foreground, there's a break in the mountains with a  little dip in it, and there's a round timbered knoll  behind there.  Yes?  That is Minhl gwo good, and that is Horetzky Mountain.  Okay.  I think we've located that ourselves several times.  Yes.  You're looking in which direction?  Almost directly south in the middle of the picture, 7412  N.J. Sterritt (for Plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Rush  1 but the view is almost directly south and the  2 mountains that are on either side of Minhl gwo good is  3 Gallix No'oh Lo'obit?  And the boundary between  4 Miluulak and Haiwas runs right along that -- the tops  5 of that mountain, Gallix No'oh Lo'obit.  6 MR. GOLDIE:  My Lord, is that evidence within your Lordship's  7 ruling?  8 THE COURT:  I would think so.  In this sense, that I assume that  9 what the witness is saying it is that from the  10 information he has received he has either plotted or  11 assisted Mr. George to plot or he has confirmed the  12 plotting of the boundary of the height of land he's  13 described.  14 MR. GOLDIE:  Yes.  So far as it is understood that the witness  15 has no knowledge other than what he has received from  16 informants.  17 THE COURT:  Yes.  He's not pronounced that that is the boundary.  18 He is not pronouncing, as I understand his evidence in  19 his capacity as an expert witness on the fact that  20 information he has received has led him to clock that  21 boundary.  22 MR. GOLDIE:  Yes, thank you.  23 THE COURT:  He is representing the information he's seen in that  24 photograph.  25 MR. RUSH: That is so.  2 6 THE COURT: All right.  2 7 MR. RUSH:  28 Q   Mr. Sterritt, Mount Horetzky, the information that you  29 have received indicates which hereditary chief owns  30 that mountain?  31 A   The House of Wiiget.  Both Robert Jackson Sr., who is  32 in the House of Miluulak and -- is responsible for the  33 territory, and Minhl gwo good has told me that, as  34 well as the House of Wiiget and Gitludahl, Pete  35 Muldoe.  Other persons Wagal wii, David Green have  36 told me that as well.  37 MR. GOLDIE:  Excuse me, and I want to be sure about this, my  38 Lord.  I'm assuming that everything the witness states  39 is recorded, and when he says "So and so told me",  40 that in his material we will find that.  41 THE COURT:  I'm not sure about that.  42 MR. RUSH:  I don't think that can be assumed necessarily.  43 MR. GOLDIE:  Well, I'm going to object on the basis of hearsay  44 to anything that is not recorded that we can't examine  45 and reconcile with the evidence of Mr. Muldoe or Mr.  46 Morrison, those who purport to have primary knowledge,  47 otherwise we're completely at sea on the basis of what 7413  N.J. Sterritt (for Plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Rush  1 a living person has stated to him that he hasn't  2 recorded.  His value, my Lord, is that he recorded  3 information sometime close to the time he received it.  4 Now, if we let go of that then we are at sea, and I  5 see no exception to the hearsay rule that allows him  6 to give any evidence about what somebody who is  7 presently living and in some case who has been before  8 the court has said to him unless he said "I made that  9 entry at that time".  Even that's not an exception to  10 the hearsay rule, unless he's exhausted his  11 recollection, but we're putting that to one side at  12 this point, but to --  13 THE COURT:  Yes.  My problem is — Mr. Goldie is what the  14 witness has said is what these two chiefs and others  15 have told him about this, and that may be pure  16 unadulterated hearsay.  On the other hand, those other  17 persons may have filed affidavits or may have given  18 evidence from which it would be inferred that Mount  19 Horetzky is within the area that the witness has  20 described, in which case the answer of course, yes, it  21 has been recorded.  If on the other hand, and I don't  22 think that he can conduct this kind of intensive  23 investigation with every sub-question that arises, it  24 may be that at the end of the day it will be left  25 standing as unadulterated hearsay, which will not be  26 evidence, but I think the process within doesn't leave  27 us much choice but to hear what he said and determine  28 at some other time whether on one ground or the other  29 it will be admissible or may be proven.  30 MR. GOLDIE:  Well, as an expert he doesn't testify from personal  31 knowledge, he testifies from facts or assumed facts.  32 THE COURT:  Well, both.  33 MR. GOLDIE:  And my point is this:  That if we are to keep the  34 evidentiary problems to a minimum we at least must  35 keep the anchor of the witness saying "I recorded this  36 information".  That's been the whole tenure of his  37 evidence, and he's got stacks and stacks of notebooks  38 and things like that.  I cannot see that his status  39 gives him the right to say "Well, yesterday I was  40 walking down the street and X told me Y and therefore  41 I'm going to express an opinion based on that".  42 THE COURT:  Well, that's so, but on the other hand, if a witness  43 has -- I'm sorry.  If X has told him, or X, Y, Z told  44 him something which is part of something that he has  45 recorded in some way or he has recorded something  46 about it, I'm not sure that the admissibility changes  47 really, because he hasn't recorded a specific fact, as 7414  N.J. Sterritt (for Plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Rush  1 long as he has based his general opinion on the -- on  2 admissible evidence and --  3 MR. GOLDIE:  Well —  4 THE COURT:  You see, the ordinary real estate appraiser may say  5 I checked the titles and I found I had experienced  6 this one time that I found that properties in Delta  7 sold for X, Y, and Z.  He may also know, however, that  8 one of the sales was by a widow who had to sell  9 because her husband died and she couldn't look after  10 the cows.  That's part of the matrix of his knowledge  11 as an expert and he may not have recorded, but he can  12 give an explanation for the recorded prices that he  13 acquired in some other way, certainly.  14 MR. GOLDIE:  Well, your Lordship now talks about the -- an  15 appraiser who is qualified as an appraiser.  That is  16 to say to express an opinion on value.  Well,  17 obviously if he learns something which affects value  18 he can take that into account in his judgment on  19 value.  Mr. Sterritt has been qualified to transform  20 information onto a map, and I think the distinction is  21 self-evident.  My point is not that I want to raise an  22 objection with respect to hearsay as such, that  23 objection is already there.  If one wanted to be  24 precise about this, one would say the opinion that Mr.  25 Sterritt is going to express with respect to the  26 accuracy of the lines on the map must be confined to  27 the affidavits or the evidence in the record.  Now, I  28 am -- I am relaxing that to the extent of saying for  29 the present I'm going to treat the evidence on the  30 record as including Mr. Sterritt's notebooks and his  31 records, but beyond that we have moved into something  32 that is completely uncharted and for which he is not  33 the analogue of the real estate appraiser, who is  34 qualified to express an opinion on value.  35 THE COURT:  Well, you see, the problem with that, Mr. Goldie, is  36 Mount Horetzky is, as everyone knows, is a large  37 rounded mountain in the centre of a vast valley or  38 valleys.  The witness may have information which led  39 him to draw the boundary on a map around an area which  40 includes Mount Horetzky, therefore he would conclude  41 that Mount Horetzky is part of the territory of X  42 without having recorded that fact because he has  43 already recorded the perimeter boundaries in some  44 other way.  That's why I don't think we can have the  45 kind of certainty that you seek in the -- in  46 connection with recorded information.  It may be  47 information that does no more -- does no more than 7415  N.J. Sterritt (for Plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Rush  1 place Mount Horetzky within the territories.  Who it  2 belongs to it seems to me is a matter that will have  3 to be inferred from other evidence, and I don't take  4 the witness' statement that this Mount Horetzky  5 belongs to X or Y to be, as I've said before, a  6 pronouncement on that question, it's merely stating  7 the same thing in an other way, as I perceive it.  I'm  8 not sure that I can do any better than that and I'm  9 not going to -- I'm not going to rule and I don't  10 think you're asking me to rule, but perhaps you are,  11 that everything the witness says or that the witness  12 can only say something that has been recorded or based  13 on something that's recorded.  I think that it will  14 lack a lot of weight if it isn't.  I don't think we  15 can stop and check every answer the witness is going  16 to give as to whether it's recorded and if so where,  17 because we get a few enough questions and answers in  18 in a day now.  19 MR. GOLDIE:  Well, my point is that it is unnecessary to go into  20 who said what to me because it's already here.  If one  21 takes the thinking to its logical conclusion there was  22 no need for affidavits, there was no need for Mr.  23 Muldoe or Mr. Morrison.  There --  24 THE COURT:  Well, in fairness, Mr. Rush knows he's not going to  25 prove his case by the out-of-court statements of X, Y,  26 and Z witnesses repeated by Mr. Sterritt in the  27 witness box.  28 MR. GOLDIE:  Then why should we be wasting our time hearing what  29 those statements were.  That's the root of my  30 objection.  31 THE COURT:  Well, yes.  I understand that, but it seems to me  32 that what Mr. Sterritt is doing is expressing opinion  33 that I found him qualified to express that these  34 boundaries that he -- that we're going to get to  35 eventually are properly based, and all he's doing now  36 is pointing out landmarks which are found within those  37 boundaries.  38 MR. GOLDIE:  Well, if that's the case, we don't need to hear why  39 he's done it.  He's now qualified to say that that is  40 Mount Horetzky, and --  41 THE COURT:  It's located within the area around which I've drawn  42 lines.  43 MR. GOLDIE:  Yes.  44 THE COURT:  Well, I don't know what your friend says about that,  45 but I'm not sure that's what you're trying to do.  I  46 think we may have slipped on the last bit, on the last  47 small piece of evidence, but what do you say, Mr. 7416  N.J. Sterritt (for Plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Rush  1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  THE COURT  MR. RUSH:  Rush?  MR. RUSH:  I say that not only am I entitled to ask him  questions about the physical feature, but questions  about should they come up the boundary of that  physical feature if it relates to a boundary, and  within whose territory that particular boundary is to  be found or that feature is to be found.  On which side of the boundary, a feature -- you see,  the witness went on and said Pete Muldoe and others  told me that that's in the territory of X.  He doesn't  really need that, does he?  He doesn't need to go that far, no, he doesn't,  because in that case that evidence is I believe before  the court.  I want to point out, however, my Lord,  that there are affidavits tendered in this action  which address these territories, each and everyone of  them.  THE COURT:  Yes.  MR. RUSH:  There is —  THE COURT:  There's some force in your friend's statement on the  face of that a lot of this may not be necessary.  MR. RUSH:  Well, my friend doesn't want you to go through the  photographs.  He's -- I got to 12 pages and had to  deal with a host of objections.  The fact of the  matter is, my Lord, what I'm trying to do is to take  your Lordship to something that is a physical feature  that your Lordship can see.  THE COURT:  Yes.  MR. RUSH:  And I think it's an important part of the evidence  about what this witness did in terms of identifying  features on the ground.  And it's not -- in a sense  it's next best to your Lordship walking around those  territories in some senses that was --  THE COURT:  I think that would be easier.  MR. RUSH:  It might be.  It might be more fun as well, as Mr.  Grant points out.  THE COURT:  Well, there are certain words that stimulate lawyers  quicker than anything else, and to say that somebody  told you something of course is usually objectionable,  and we had an example of that a moment ago, but I'm  resigned to the fact that we have an almost impossible  problem, and I think we have to work things the best  we can.  It seems to me there is some force in what  your friends says.  There isn't point in view of the  nature of the witness' expertise, for him to be  telling me now that somebody told him that this was  the property of somebody.  He should -- seems to me 7417  N.J. Sterritt (for Plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Rush  1  2  3  4  5  6  MR.  RUSH:  7  8  9  10  THE  COURT  11  12  MR.  RUSH:  13  14  15  16  THE  COURT  17  18  19  20  MR.  RUSH:  21  22  23  24  THE  COURT  25  26  27  MR.  RUSH:  28  29  30  31  THE  COURT  32  33  34  MR.  RUSH:  35  36  THE  COURT  37  38  39  40  41  MR.  RUSH:  42  THE  COURT  43  MR.  RUSH:  44  Q  45  46  47  the useful part of his evidence is, you just  described, to locate physical characteristics that  other evidence will show belong within territories  assigned at this stage unilaterally by defendants to  chief X or chief Y or house X or house Y.  Well, I agree that that is the force of the evidence  as a whole. However, having said that, I think it is  within your Lordship's power to accept evidence which  is hearsay in nature, and that it is a feature.  :  There are strong authority of statements that say  that no judge has the power to waive the hearsay rule.  Well, I think there are other statements which  acknowledge the fact that as a part of every inference  to be taken where an expert is giving testimony is a  hearsay component.  :  I think the authorities to which I'm referring are  probably the ones that say I can rely upon on the end  of the day not what I allow my ears to hear during the  course of the trial.  What I say, my Lord, is that in a number of cases  dealt with at perhaps in different types of context  involving psychiatric or medical evidence, that it's  been acknowledged that hearsay --  :  Those are exceptions though.  We're having them all  the time now.  We receive great exceptions on the  hearsay rule, but there has to be exceptions usually.  Well, I don't think so, my Lord.  It says there is an  acceptable hearsay component in the make-up of every  expert's knowledge upon which he draws in formulating  his opinion.  :  Oh, yes, but the hearsay that that refers to is in  the nature of collecting information, not assigning a  meaning or a conclusion to it.  Well, I am not asking -- I don't have to ask your  Lordship to go that far.  :  I'm not sure that we have an issue at all, if in  fact, but I think there is some force to the specific  objection that Mr. Goldie made a moment ago to that  one narrow piece of evidence.  Let's see how we get  along with it.  All right.  :  If at all.  Mr. Sterritt, just referring to photograph number 2,  the right side of that, there appears to be in Gitksan  the word Lax an hak and an arrow pointing to a  physical feature.  Can you identify if it -- it refers 7418  N.J. Sterritt (for Plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Rush  1  2  3  A  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  Q  12  13  A  14  Q  15  16  17  A  18  19  20  21  Q  22  A  23  24  25  26  THE COURT  27  A  28  29  30  THE COURT  31  MR. RUSH:  32  Q  33  34  35  A  36  Q  37  38  A  39  40  41  Q  42  A  43  Q  44  45  A  46  47  to an English name that's located on maps and what is  the physical feature that's shown in the photograph?  There is a timbered ridge that is quite distinct.  The  haze is in the background and it's between the haze  and the end of the mountain and that ridge -- not just  the ridge but the entire area of -- on both sides of  the ridge and in towards you, as a viewer of the  picture, is called Lax an Hak, and this area appears  in the affidavit of Robert Jackson Sr., the  description of these territories.  All right.  Lax an Hak; does that have a name on a  government map, to your knowledge?  No.  It does not.  All right.  And the other name that appears on that  photocopy is Gallix No'ohl Lo'obit.  What does that  mean?  Well, that's -- I've already referred to that.  That  is the mountains that are in the main feature in the  picture, in the middle part of the picture, that is  Gallix No'ohl Lo'obit.  Would you go please to page 12, Mr. Sterritt?  Just to finish that one.  Lip skanisit, Kotsine  Mountain is at the south end of Gallix No'ohl Lo'obit,  and then there is An Skeexs, the gate range below  there.  :  Kotsine Mountain is at the far end of that range?  Yes, it is.  You can barely see it.  It's in between  the distinct mountains that you see and then the  mountain off in the distance, and it's right in there.  :  All right.  Now, Mr. Sterritt, if you turn to page 12, photograph  1 identifies the feature Tarn wii t'ax.  And it shows  this as Gunanoot Lake?  Yes.  And Gunanoot Lake is the lake that's in the middle of  the picture as we face it?  Yes.  There's a lake very close in the foreground and  then another one just south of it, and we are looking  south here, and that is Gunanoot Lake.  And in whose territory was Gunanoot Lake located?  It's in the territory of Miluulak.  And on photograph number 2, which direction are we  facing?  In this photograph we're facing more to the  south-west, and the mountains in the distance on  the -- towards the left of the picture, on the left 7419  N.J. Sterritt (for Plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Rush  1 side of the picture, is the Kisgagas, in the area of  2 Kisgagas Peak.  3 Q   All right.  This is an aerial view in which you were  4 airborne at the time?  5 A   Yes.  6 Q   Is that true with number 3 and 4?  7 A   Yes, it is.  8 Q   All right.  And in your photocopy you refer to Wii  9 t'ax and Tsim Goohl Yip in photograph 2.  Wii t'ax;  10 what does that refer to?  11 A   Once again that is Gunanoot Lake.  You can see parts  12 of Gunanoot Lake behind the ridge, and the ridge in  13 the foreground is Tsim Goohl Yip.  14 Q   All right.  Just in respect of that, there appear to  15 be two different spellings for Gunanoot Lake.  You've  16 seen photograph 1, it's Wii D'ax with a D and Wii T'ax  17 with a T.  Does that refer to the same --  18 A   Same thing.  19 Q   All right.  Now, in photograph number 4 it indicates  20 in the photocopy you're on Tsim Goohl Yip?  21 A   Yes.  And the view is east to Gallix No'ohl Lo'obit,  22 the mountain I described on page 11, and that if you  23 follow that mountain down to the end it drops and then  24 goes up to the right.  That's Kotsine Mountain, Lip  25 Skanist, and then behind in the dip between Gallix  26 No'ohl Lo'obit and Kotsine Mountain is Djil Djila, or  27 the Driftwood Range.  28 Q   I think you gave us those names yesterday?  29 A   Yes.  30 Q   Now, Mr. Sterritt, after page 12 you go to a divider  31 which becomes volume 1, number 2, and I think you've  32 said that up to page 12 represents photographs from  33 one film?  34 A   One set of negatives, yes.  35 Q   And does that represent one field trip?  36 A   It represents one set of negatives, and I'm in the  37 same location on the next -- on page 13 and continuing  38 a new film.  39 Q   I see, all right.  So we're still on the same field  40 trip; is that right?  41 A   Still on the same field trip at Tsim Goohl Yip.  42 Q   Okay.  So on page 13 we're on Tsim Goohl Yip, and does  43 this show a panoramic shot from Tsim Goohl Yip?  44 A   Yes, it does.  45 Q   And I'm referring to photos 1 and 2?  46 A   1, 2, 3, 4 and carried on onto page 14 and the three  47 pictures on page 15 would form panorama from that 7420  N.J. Sterritt (for Plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Rush  1 location.  2 Q   The third photograph on page 13 refers to Dam wii  3 t'ax; you see that?  4 A   Yes.  5 Q   What lake was that -- does that have an English name?  6 A   That's Dam Nageeda, and I don't think it has an  7 English name, and if so it would appear on -- no.  It  8 doesn't appear on the index.  I don't think there's an  9 English name for that map -- or for that lake.  We're  10 still -- we're located in the territory of Miluulak  11 and we're looking all around at the various features  12 within the territory of Miluulak, and that territory  13 extends to very close to Kisgagas.  14 Q   All right.  Now, in the bottom right-hand corner there  15 is an arrow, there's an arrow pointing to a feature  16 you've identified as Lax du maawxs.  Is that feature  17 shown in this photograph?  18 A   If you look in picture 4 at Gunanoot Lake and then  19 move to the next horizon above Gunanoot Lake, right  20 behind there is a faded ridge that comes out from the  21 right of the picture.  That faded ridge is Lax du  22 maawxs, and that's also in the territory of Miluulak.  23 MR. RUSH:  All right.  Can you go to 14, Mr. Sterritt, please.  24 THE COURT:  Well, I think we'll take the morning adjournment,  25 Mr. rush, please.  26 THE REGISTRAR:  Order in court.  27  28 (PROCEEDINGS ADJOURNED AT 11:15)  29  30 I hereby certify the foregoing to be  31 a true and accurate transcript of the  32 proceedings herein transcribed to the  33 best of my skill and ability  34  35  36  37  38 Graham D. Parker  39 Official Reporter  40 United Reporting Service Ltd.  41  42  43  44  45  46  47 (PROCEEDINGS RESUMED) 7421  N. Sterritt (for Plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Rush  1 THE REGISTRAR:  Order in court.  2 THE COURT:  Mr. Rush.  3  4 EXAMINATION IN CHIEF BY MR. RUSH CONTINUED:  5 Q    My Lord, before we continue, reference has been made  6 to a flight lines map.  I have tacked onto Exhibit  7 Number 5 For Identification such a map.  And I would  8 like, Mr. Sterritt, if you would just go over and  9 refer to that map for a moment.  Can you identify that  10 map as containing the flight lines of helicopter  11 flights that you took and from which these  12 photographs -- or during which these photographs were  13 taken?  14 A    Yes.  It's a map that I prepared in response to the  15 Federal Government, the defendant's concern about how  16 to locate the photographs and where they were taken  17 from.  And it was -- what I have done is plotted the  18 first station for a given flight.  And that would be  19 on June 22, 1983, this is just north of French Peak  20 and south of Mount Horetzky, Station 1, Station 2, 3.  21 Station 2 being Mount Horetzky, Station 3 being on the  22 south end of the Driftwood Range just past Kotsine  23 Mountain.  And then move due east up over the  24 Driftwood River, north up the Driftwood River, west  25 and landed at Tsim Goohl Yip which is the location  26 where we were taking -- that we were talking about on  27 page 13, I think it is, a few minutes ago.  Then the  28 flight moved -- we stayed airborne and went just west  29 of Xsi 'din Creek and then right into Hazelton.  So  30 there is a date at the station that explains what day  31 we were on and the numbers follow.  And all of the  32 helicopter flights that I took up to this year appear  33 on this map as well as locations that I drove to in  34 the Hazelton area and did panoramas.  So this is an  35 effort to locate all of those photographs or those  36 flight lines.  37 Q    And who drafted that map?  38 A    I used a rough map and located the stations and the  39 flight lines and turned that over to Marvin George.  40 And Marvin George either prepared this or had it  41 prepared under his supervision.  42 Q    All right.  And there is a date on that, I think  43 around June 22nd of 1987?  44 A    Yes.  45 Q    And is that your understanding of the date this was  46 prepared?  47 A    It was not long after the trial started in Smithers 7422  N. Sterritt (for Plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Rush  1 that I prepared the working map for Marvin George.  2 MR. RUSH:   All right.  I am going to ask that that be marked as  3 an exhibit, My Lord.  4 MR. GOLDIE:  My Lord, the title of that is External boundaries  5 of the Gitksan Wet'suwet'en Territories.  I take it it  6 is not being tendered as proof of that statement?  7 MR. RUSH:   This map was prepared by request to assist the  8 defendants as to where these photographs were taken  9 from.  The map is being tendered for the purpose of  10 showing the flight lines that Mr. Sterritt was  11 involved on helicopter flights.  12 THE COURT:  All right.  The next exhibit number?  13 THE REGISTRAR:  660.  14  15 (EXHIBIT 660:  Flight Lines and Automobile Field  16 Trips Map dated June 22, 1987)  17  18 MR. RUSH:   I would describe that as the flight lines map, June  19 22, 1987.  2 0 THE COURT:  Yes.  21 MR. GOLDIE:  And automobile map.  22 MR. RUSH:  23 Q    Yes.  And I take it, it includes automobile field  24 trips.  Mr. Sterritt, just so we can site ourselves on  25 that map which is Exhibit 660, in reference to the  26 photographs that you were talking about on page 14 of  27 Volume 1, it appears from page 14 that you are at one  28 of the field locations where you've set down on your  29 trip; is that right?  30 A    Yes, it is.  31 Q    All right.  Now, could you just relate to us where  32 you are in reference to the map that's 660?  33 A    Station Number 4 on that day appears at this point  34 on the map.  And just south of there you can see  35 Gunanoot Lake.  And Tsim Goohl yip is this area right  36 around Station Number 4.  37 Q    The area shown in the photographs on page 14 of the  38 photograph book, Mr. Sterritt, is that the area of  39 Station Number 4?  40 A    Yes, you can see in the foreground some trees and a  41 hill.  In the immediate foreground of those pictures,  42 that is part of Tsim Goohl yip.  43 Q    All right.  I am going to take you back to the  44 photographs.  I will probably be asking you to make  45 further reference to the flight lines reference in due  46 course.  On page 14 the photographs make reference to  47 a number of Gitksan names and features identified in 7423  N. Sterritt (for Plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Rush  1 the photograph.  I wonder if you can start with  2 photograph number one and just refer to each one of  3 the Gitksan names in turn and describe what the  4 feature is and if there is a name on a government map  5 to indicate what that is?  6 A    Well, there are names on here and there are also --  7 there are areas that are not named there that do have  8 Gitksan and European names which will appear on the  9 map.  So in photograph number one, looking directly  10 south, we are looking at the -- at Tomlinson Mountain.  11 And that is -- on the face of that mountain is the  12 area known as Luu ska Tee'it.  And then as you come  13 forward, towards yourself in the photograph, there is  14 a long plain below Luu ska Tee'it which is Lax duu  15 maawxs.  That entire plain running right across the  16 photograph to the left-hand side below that mountain  17 is called Lax duu maawxs.  18 MR. RUSH:   And that on the photograph is spelled L-A-X, new  19 word, D-U-U, new word, M-A-A-W-X-S.  20 THE COURT:  Where is Tomlinson Mountain?  21 THE WITNESS:  In photograph number one you see in the immediate  22 foreground there are some scrub trees?  2 3 THE COURT:  Yes.  24 THE WITNESS:  If you go slightly to the right of them and up,  25 you come to Tomlinson Mountain.  26 THE COURT:  The highest peak?  27 THE WITNESS:  Yes, that's Tomlinson Mountain.  And that is often  28 called the Tomlinson Range.  29 Now, between the Tomlinson Range and the long  30 ridge that runs the length of the photograph is the  31 Babine River, it is down in that.  And between Good  32 Lax duu maawxs -- or pardon me, Lax duu maawxs is the  33 entire ridge.  The part that juts above the ridge  34 towards the right-hand side of the picture, it is not  35 as evident there, but at a different angle it's  36 higher.  And it is known as Good Lax duu maawxs, the  37 heart of Lax Duu Maawxs.  38 Q    And Good is spelled G-O-O-D and then Lax duu maawxs  39 which I have already given.  Yes?  40 A    Now, in photograph number one in the immediate  41 foreground is a patch of snow, a large patch of snow.  42 Above that is a very thin scrub tree.  And immediately  43 above that scrub tree is a creek valley coming down  44 off Lax duu maawxs.  And that creek is Xsa ansa Gasxw.  45 Q    Is that to be found on a government map?  46 A    No, it does not have an English name.  And then  47 there is the ridge that runs the length of the 7424  N. Sterritt (for Plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Rush  1 photograph and then below it on a ridge just above the  2 scrub trees.  And just on the other side of that ridge  3 is the river that appears on the map as Shelagyote  4 River and that is Saa hahla gyoot.  5 Q    Is that visible in photograph one?  6 A    You cannot see -- it is the valley, the Shelagyote  7 Valley is down in there.  What you see is the  8 Shelagyote Valley.  9 Q    All right.  Can you now move to photograph two?  10 A    Yes.  As you enter photograph two on the extension  11 of Lax duu maawxs, you come to what is on the map as  12 Atna Pass.  It is just below the break where you start  13 to go up the mountain.  And when you go up the  14 mountain you then come to Dahl An Makhl.  And that's  15 the mountain that you see it goes up and then comes  16 down and then there is a sharp peak.  Well, it is the  17 first part -- it is the first mountain that you see of  18 that range.  19 Q    And on your photocopy you have spelled that D-A-H-L,  2 0 new word, A-N, new word, M-A-K-H-L?  21 A    Yes.  22 Q    Yes?  23 A    Coming along there is a valley in between that and  24 the next peak and the next peak is T'sim An Makhl.  25 And in between those two peaks there is a creek that  26 runs out the other side and that is on the map as  27 Goathead Creek, Xsi Andap Matx.  28 Q    When you say it runs out the other side, do you mean  29 to say that it runs away from the position that we are  30 facing as we are looking into this photograph?  31 A    Yes, it does.  32 THE COURT:  Well, we are still looking south here, aren't we?  33 THE WITNESS:  We are looking south.  34 THE COURT:  So it runs south?  35 THE WITNESS: It runs south.  36 Running towards you, running north and towards  37 you from that same area is Wii Tsaphl Galgil Ditx and  38 that is on the map as Cayuse Jack Creek.  3 9    MR. RUSH:  40 Q    And it is spelled here W-I-L T-S-A-P-H-L G-A-L-G-I-L  41 D-I-T-X.  Now, again, Mr. Sterritt, is that creek  42 visible in the photograph?  43 A    You can't see the actual creek.  Because of the  44 distance it's not distinguishable.  But once again  45 the -- and then that creek forms the boundary between  46 Miluulak on the southeast side and Wii gaak on the  47 northwest side. 7425  N. Sterritt (for Plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Rush  1  Q  2  3  4  A  5  6  7  8  9  10  THE  COURT  11  THE  WITNE  12  13  14  15  THE  COURT  16  MR.  RUSH:  17  Q  18  19  20  21  A  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  Q  29  A  30  Q  31  32  A  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  Q  46  47  A  All right.  And you make reference to one further  name on the right side in the photocopy Galii xsi  yeeswit.  If you look at the -- it is almost a pyramid in the  peak in the center of the picture, center of the  photo.  As it drops -- slopes to the right, there is a  very steep gully there and it basically runs east/west  and that area is known as Gallii xsi yeeswit.  It is  in the area of Kisgagas Peak and below Kisgagas Peak.  :  Kisgagas Peak doesn't show in that picture?  3S: It differs on topographic maps.  Sometimes that  peak is shown as Kisgagas Peak, sometimes it is  farther to the right.  It varies with the topographic  maps .  :  Okay.  On the bottom left-hand photograph, Mr. Sterritt,  you seem to have moved to a different panorama and you  have identified Xsan Laahl there.  What does that  refer to?  There is a very sharp scrub tree in the center of  the picture without any branches on it.  You can see a  valley, a creek valley, quite a wide one coming out  behind that.  Actually it would be -- the creek  running out of there would run down to the southeast.  That's the valley of Xsan Laahl and that's part of Wii  gaak's territory.  That's X-S-A-N, new word, L-A-A-H-L.  There is no European name on the map for that creek.  And then it looks to be that you identified a lake  called T'am Saa hahla gyoot?  That's in the middle of the panorama.  If those two  photographs are together, there is a small narrow lake  on the edge of photograph number two, the rest running  into photograph number three, the rest running into  photograph number four, that is Tarn Saa hahla gyoot.  And the boundary between Miluulak and Wii gaak run  around the right-hand end of that lake and then down.  You can see a bit of a depression behind the lake,  there is a creek valley there.  The boundary runs down  that creek to what is on the map as Shelagyote River  or Xsa gaa gyoot.  And that is the north boundary of  Miluulak and part of the southeast boundary of Wii  gaak.  And proceeding then to the right of the fourth  photograph, An gil galanous?  An gil galanous.  What that means literally is all 7426  N. Sterritt (for Plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Rush  1 around the headwaters.  And it's around the headwaters  2 of Shelagyote River.  It is referred to that because  3 the river is so wild in the spring that they have to  4 go around the head to -- they can't cross it.  And the  5 area of An gil galanous is slightly to the right of  6 the lake in the middle of the picture and over in  7 the -- down in the valley between the mountain and the  8 ridge in the middle of the picture.  And it runs  9 almost to the middle of that picture and then back  10 around.  That's a general area known An gil gilanous.  11 Q    And then you've identified a lake on the right-hand  12 side of the photograph.  Is it what appears to be that  13 large body of water in the foreground of the fourth  14 photograph?  15 A    No, it's not.  16 Q    Okay.  17 A    There is a scrub tree that goes right through that  18 lake and ends on a ridge behind.  Just to the right of  19 that is two lakes, and they appear on the map as  20 Sicintine Lakes and that is Dam Sicintine.  And that  21 valley you're looking at down there just to the right  22 of that scrub tree that crosses the lake, that is the  23 Sicintine Valley.  And you are looking northwest into  24 the picture towards Slamgeese Lake which is well  25 beyond.  The boundary for Wii gaak is about halfway  26 down that valley and comes across from the mountain on  27 the left and up a creek on the right, but you can't  28 see it in this photograph.  29 Q    Mr. Sterritt, what do you estimate distance to be  30 from where this photograph was taken to the most  31 distant mountain in the fourth photograph?  32 A    The most distant mountain would be about 20 to 25  33 miles away.  34 MR. RUSH:   Now, I think you said that the panoramic view  35 continued over onto page 15.  36 THE COURT:  I'm sorry, does that large lake have a name?  37 THE WITNESS:  There is a name, but I don't have that name.  3 8 THE COURT:  Thank you.  39 MR. RUSH:   All right.  If you will go over to page 15, Mr.  40 Sterritt.  41 THE COURT:  Is this still looking southwest?  42 THE WITNESS:  No, on page 15, photograph number one, we are now  43 looking almost due north.  4 4 MR. RUSH:  45 Q    And in the photocopy of the photograph number one  46 you identify Anx Binaawa which I think you made  47 reference to before? 7427  N. Sterritt (for Plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Rush  1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  THE  THE  THE  THE  THE  THE  MR.  A    Yes.  Q    And above that you made a notation of Wii Luu Shihls  Yoxandi and then a question mark.  What does that  refer to?  A    Well, Anx Binaawa is the mountain side in the  picture -- the mountain area in the picture.  And it  is one I referred to yesterday and perhaps earlier  today.  It's the area on the left side of the  photograph -- or pardon me, the right-hand side of the  photograph as you look at this, the mountain area and  it continues on to the right.  Wii Luu Shihls Yoxandi,  the question mark on that is because I wasn't certain  whether it was on Anx Binaawa or over at Gallix No'ohl  Lo'obit.  And my understanding is that it is at Gallix  no'ohl Lo'obit which is a mountain farther to the  east.  Q    And there appears to be a name in the bottom left  hand or photograph number three; is that right?  A    Oh, yes.  Yes, you just see -- in order to -- you  are now looking east from Tsim goohl yip.  And on the  very right-hand side of that photograph in the middle  you can see a mountain that comes into the picture  about half an inch and then drops.  It rises and then  drops and there is a valley there.  That is part of  Gallix No'ohl Lo'obit and the trail to Bear Lake goes  through the pass.  And you almost see the mountain at  Bear Lake in the far distance, Bas Choo, the mountain  that we landed on several weeks ago when we were on  the overview.  COURT:  That's on the —  WITNESS:  McConnell —  COURT:  On the right-hand side of photograph number one?  WITNESS: Number three.  COURT:  Number three?  WITNESS: Yes.  And then the next photograph number four we  are airborne and looking down the Sicintine Valley.  And you can see -- in that photograph you can see the  Sicintine Lakes.  These are the lakes that you referred to in the  photograph on page 14?  Yes.  And I think there is an identification of Dam  Sicintine?  A    Yes, you can see the lake almost dead center in the  picture.  And that is all part of the territory of Wii  gaak, the mountains on the right and the mountains on  RUSH:  Q  A  Q 742?  N. Sterritt (for Plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Rush  1 the left as well as the valley.  2 Q    Now, Mr. Sterritt, in the foreground of the fourth  3 photograph you have identified a feature An gil  4 galanous.  I think you have referred us to that name  5 earlier as being an area, am I right about that?  6 A    Yes.  And that shows almost all of the area of An  7 gil galanous in the lower left-hand corner.  If you  8 came into the picture about an inch and a half at a  9 diagonal that would take in -- all of that corner  10 would take in An gil galanous.  11 Q    Just before I leave page 15, in what direction were  12 you facing at the time that you took photograph number  13 three?  14 A    Slightly north of east.  We are looking east there,  15 slightly north of east.  16 Q    And I think you were still on the same station stop  17 there?  18 A    Yes, at Tsim goohl yip.  19 Q    Now, there is a lake in the foreground of that  20 photograph number three.  Excuse me, not the  21 foreground, but the left center, I suppose, would be a  22 more accurate description.  Can you identify that  23 lake?  24 A    I don't have -- I haven't been given a name for that  25 lake.  26 Q    All right.  Would you please proceed now to page 16.  27 And these photographs appear to be all -- to have been  28 taken while you were airborne; is that right?  29 A    Yes.  30 Q    And in photograph number one you refer to a Gitksan  31 name.  Perhaps you could just tell us what that refers  32 to and, if you can, find where that location is more  33 precisely on the ground?  34 A   Are you referring to the location of the identified  35 feature or where --  36 Q    Yes.  I am referring to Xsaga gyoot.  37 A    Oh, all right.  In the very center of the picture  38 you can see the thread of the Shelagyote River for  39 about an inch there.  And on the right-hand side of  40 the picture that is Xsaga gyoot.  On the lower right  41 corner you can see it coming along the picture and  42 going around and running through and that is Xsaga  43 gyoot and then up in -- you see a lake shining in the  44 photograph, that is daam Xsaga guoot.  There is no  45 designation on the map for that.  46 Q    That is the silvery-looking lake in the upper  47 left-hand quadrant of that photograph? 7429  N. Sterritt (for Plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Rush  1 A    Yes.  2 Q    Mr. Sterritt, I wonder if you could just pause there  3 and step off the witness stand and tell us where the  4 Shelagyote River is on the map, the flight lines map.  5 A    Station number four where we've been located now in  6 these photographs is at that location.  7 Q    That's marked with a four, is it?  8 A    Yes, right by the name Miluulak.  And then there is  9 a river that runs down to the Babine River which is  10 right here.  11 Q    You are just running your hand north to south?  12 A    That is the Shelagyote River.  13 Q    All right.  14 A   And the view down the Sicintine was here.  15 Q    You are pointing in a line from south to north now?  16 A    Yes.  17 Q    And Gallix No'ohl Lo'obit, the view slightly north  18 of east, this is the knob right here going through  19 that pass and Kotsine Mountain is right here and  20 Horetzky is here.  So the view that you have now we  21 are airborne and looking down from this point and this  22 is Shelgyote Lake, daam Xsaga gyoot right here.  There  23 is no name on the map for it.  So we are airborne on  24 the map at this point and looking down in that  25 direction.  26 Q    So at this point you mean where the photographs are  27 located on page 16, and you were looking virtually in  28 a southerly direction; is that right?  29 A    Yes.  30 Q    Down the Shelagyote Valley?  31 A    Yes.  32 Q    Is it known as the Shelagyote  Valley?  33 A    I haven't heard that.  But we could say Valley of  34 the Shelagyote River.  35 THE COURT:  Number one on page 16 is taken looking south?  36 THE WITNESS:  Yes, that's the view.  37 MR. RUSH:  38 Q    The feature that is in the upper right-hand corner  39 of the photograph Tahl An Makhl, what does that refer  40 to?  41 A    That's the mountain that is just -- if you are  42 looking at the picture, it is the mountain very close  43 to Atna Pass which we referred to earlier.  Atna Pass  44 appears on the map.  And that mountain rising up on  45 the foreground is Tahl An Makhl.  46 Q    There appears to be mountain in the -- behind that;  47 is that right? 7430  N. Sterritt (for Plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Rush  1 A    Yes.  2 Q    And it is the mountain on the right-hand edge of the  3 photograph; is that right?  4 A    Yes.  5 Q    In the fore --  6 A    Yes.  7 Q    More to the foreground, let me put it that way.  8 A    The mountains behind are the Tomlison Range,  9 Tomlison Mountain.  10 Q    Now, in photograph number two a Gitksan name or  11 feature is identified, what is that?  12 A    Well, that is -- that creek you can see it now  13 coming down out of that valley, that is on the map is  14 Cayuse Jack Creek.  And that's the one I referred to  15 earlier as Wii Tsaphl Galgil Ditx.  And that is the  16 boundary -- that creek forms the boundary between  17 Miluulak on the left-hand side of the picture and Wii  18 gaak on the right-hand side.  19 In photograph number three is a view just  20 farther up that picture, it is the headwaters of that  21 creek.  And there you are looking at Tsim An Makhl,  22 that peak right in the center and Galii sii yeeswit.  23 But you can see the valley going to the right-hand  24 side of that, it is a mountain valley going out and  25 that is what is known as Galii sii yeeswit.  26 Q    That here is spelled G-A-L-L-I-I, new word, S-I-I,  27 new word, Y-E-E-S-W-I-T.  And then in photograph  28 number four are you able to identify the referenced  29 physical features in the photocopy on photograph 4?  30 A    On the right-hand side of the picture you can see a  31 light, almost shiny portion which is a lake and that  32 is -- I don't think I've identified it, but it is Dam  33 Lax duu maawks and the spelling would be the same as  34 the other part of that.  That whole ridge or timbered  35 ridge that you see cutting right across the picture,  36 that is Lax duu maawxs.  And then just so the left of  37 that lake you can almost distinguish that there is a  38 bit of a ridge that's higher than the rest and that is  39 the heart of Lax duu maawxs or Good Lax duu maawxs.  40 Q    Which direction are you facing as you look into that  41 photograph?  42 A    We are facing south.  43 Q    And in the foreground we have got identified Xsi an  44 gasxw?  45 A    Xsi an gasxw and that's the creek.  It runs -- you  46 can see some slide areas on the left-hand side of the  47 picture about midway, there is a creek runs down there 7431  N. Sterritt (for Plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Rush  1 and that is Xsi an gasxw.  2 Q    Okay.  3 A   And then the area to the left of that is known as  4 Tsap juulik.  This is all the territory of Miluulak  5 here that we are looking at on that photograph.  6 Q    Now, can we go to photograph number one on page 17.  7 It appears that you are still airborne throughout the  8 photograph shown on page 17, is that so?  9 A    Yes.  10 Q    And on photograph one of that page you make  11 reference to Xsaga gyoot?  12 A    Xsaga gyoot, that's the Shelagyote Valley.  13 Q    Yes.  14 A    It forms a line, diagonal line coming in from the  15 left-hand side of the photograph.  16 Q    Yes.  17 A   And that is the Shelagyote Valley.  You can see  18 parts of the river.  19 Q    Now, in photograph number two, what direction are  20 you facing as you took this photograph?  21 A    That photograph is looking almost south towards  22 Kisgagas.  You can't see Kisgagas in that photograph.  23 Q    Okay.  24 A   And that is an area at the head of -- it is part of  25 the area at the head of Xsi gwitselasgwit.  It appears  26 on the creek as Shenismike Creek, it is  27 S-H-E-N-I-S-M-I-K-E.  28 THE COURT:  M-I-K-E?  29 THE WITNESS:  Yes, all one word, Shenismike.  30 THE COURT:  S-H-E-N-I-S?  31 THE WITNESS:  It comes from an effort to spell the Indian word  32 Xsi gwitselasgwit which is another creek farther.  33 They mislocated the name, it is farther over.  34 MR. RUSH:  35 Q    Now, in the direction, I take it, of the nose of the  36 helicopter where it's pointing, whose territory is  37 that, Mr. Sterritt?  38 A    That's Miluulak's territory.  39 Q    And I think you made reference to Xsi gwitselasgwit?  40 A    Yes.  41 Q    And in the bottom left-hand photograph that is  42 number three, there is what to my ear appears to be  43 the spelling of that; is that correct?  44 A    Yes, that's it.  45 Q    In the photocopy?  46 A    Yes, that is the -- there you can see the very  47 headwaters of Xsi gwitselasgwit. 7432  N. Sterritt (for Plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Rush  1 Q    And that's a creek, and that creek is identified by  2 the reference to the name on the photograph?  3 A    Yes, it is.  And that, once again, is Shenismike on  4 the map.  And that is a clear picture of Dahl An  5 Makhl.  6 Q    That's the mountain?  7 A    The mountain area that you see there that the creek  8 comes out off.  9 Q    Now, on the right -- lower right-hand photograph  10 number four there is a Gitksan name.  Can you tell me  11 what that refers to, please?  12 A    It is the name of that lake, it's Hlguu wii dak.  It  13 means the small lake.  14 Q    Here it is spelled H-L-G-U-U, new word, W-I-I, new  15 word, D-A-K?  16 A    Yes.  17 Q    And then you have written here:  "Lake on which Wii  18 gaak/Miluulak located cabin".  And I can't make out  19 what was written after that.  20 A    I can't either.  But a couple of years ago my father  21 and Robert Jackson Sr. agreed to build a cabin on that  22 lake so that they could go to their territories from  23 there.  This is within Robert Jackson Sr.'s territory  24 and my father's territory is not far from there.  They  25 both do their hunting and their trapping from there.  26 Q    And have you travelled yourself on that territory?  27 A    Yes, I have travelled extensively in that territory  28 by horseback and on foot and in the winter on  29 snowshoes and ski-doo.  30 Q    I wonder if you would just point to where that is on  31 the map, on the flight lines map.  In perhaps relation  32 to the Village of Kisgagas?  33 A    Here is the Village of Kisgagas.  This is -- this  34 black line that you see here is Shenismike Creek or  35 Xsi gwitselasgwit.  And as you come up, there is a  36 black dot which represents the lake Hlguu wii dak and  37 Kisgagas is within 10 miles of that location.  It is  38 right there.  There is a trail that goes to there and  39 a road.  That was on the trail that used to go from  40 Kisgagas to Bear Lake.  41 Q    Now, on page 18 can you identify the direction that  42 you are facing in the photographs one, two and three?  43 A    On photograph number one we are flying -- we are  44 actually flying west and I take a photograph south.  45 We are not far from the -- it is another lake.  We are  46 not far from the lake where the cabin of my father and  47 Robert Jackson is located. 7433  N. Sterritt (for Plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Rush  1 Q    All right.  2 A    On photograph number two there is a valley that  3 begins or appears to begin at the very end of the  4 antenna on the helicopter and runs down.  And what  5 that is is Xsi andap matx or Goathead Creek.  That is  6 the valley of Goathead Creek.  And the mountain that  7 rises on the right is Tsim an makhl.  8 Q    On the right at photo two?  9 A    Yes.  10 Q    And which direction are we facing?  11 A    We are facing more or less west.  And then if you  12 see -- you can see some writing in the middle of the  13 photograph which is a reflection off the bubble,  14 immediately under the reverse end there is a little  15 rock on the ridge there and that is -- there is a  16 legend attached to that rock, but it is called Gina  17 Muuxw.  18 Q    Gina Muuxw.  And is that -- when you say the  19 reversed, I heard "reverse end", you meant reverse  2 0              end?  21 A    Yes.  22 Q    So directly below that?  23 A    The sharp rock and that is Gina Muuxw.  24 Q    So is that the feature identified in the photocopy  2 5 Gina Muuxw?  26 A    Yes.  27 Q    And on the lower left-hand photograph number three,  28 in which direction are you facing there?  29 A    We are facing northwest and we are looking -- the  30 mountains that you see in the background appear on the  31 map as Shelf Ridge.  32 Q    Shelf?  33 A    Yes.  34 Q    Yes?  35 A   And that is Lax An Hakw.  And that's -- there is a  36 boundary along that ridge.  And the territory on this  37 side of that ridge is the territory of Tsabux and on  38 the other side is the territory of Luus.  And that is  39 the same ridge that you see in photograph number two  40 where the Shelf Ridge runs down to Geltsaa huupxwit  41 and -- well which would be in the area of Sam Green  42 Creek which is a creek that runs out to the left of  43 the picture.  44 Q    You are here talking about photograph number two?  45 A    I am back on photograph two now, yes.  46 Q    Now, I think you said Geltsaa huupxwit?  47 A    Huupxwit, yes. 7434  N. Sterritt (for Plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Rush  1 Q    Huupxwit, I'm sorry.  Is that shown in photograph  2 two?  3 A    Yes, it is.  The T — the inverted T in the  4 reflection on the bubble, it is directly above it.  5 And there is a creek that flows out right there as  6 well or just to the left of that below the N and  7 that's Xsa Alilxs and that's a boundary.  8 Q    Still referring to photograph number two?  9 A    Yes.  10 Q    And is that an internal boundary, Mr. Sterritt?  11 A    Yes, it is an internal boundary between Tsabux, Wolf  12 Chief on the right, and Miluulak, the Lak Seel or Frog  13 Chief on the left.  14 Q    Okay.  Now, would you refer, please, to photograph  15 number four?  16 A    Yes.  17 Q    In the foreground on the photocopy you have  18 identified a physical feature there which appears to  19 be a lake which is Taam Xsugwilaaltwit, that is the  20 lake in the foreground, is it?  21 A    Yes.  22 Q    And is there a name for that lake on the map, the  23 government map?  24 A    There isn't, but it is right besides the head of  25 Goathead Creek.  Goathead Creek begins slightly --  26 well, out to the right of the picture.  And that means  27 Mirror Lake, that's what it refers to.  28 Q    What is your elevation there, Mr. Sterritt?  29 A    Well, in the coast range mountains -- a rough guide  30 as to where timber-line is at 4,500 feet elevation.  31 And here in this location we are in the neighbourhood  32 of 5,000 feet, higher than timber-line so we are close  33 to 5,000 feet.  34 Q    Now, would you please go to 19?  35 A    Yes.  36 Q    The direction that you are facing in photograph  37 number one, what is that, please?  38 A    We are looking south down the Skeena Valley.  And  39 you can't see it in the photograph, but in the center  40 of the photograph it would be the location of the  41 Village of Kisgagas.  You can see a lake in the very  42 center of the picture.  If you just dropped over the  43 ridge about half an inch in front of that you would be  44 in the Village of Kisgagas.  45 Q    And you've identified that lake on the photocopy as  4 6 Dam Xsan Guuxw?  47 A    Yes, there are three lakes there.  There is Dam Xsan 7435  N. Sterritt (for Plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Rush  1 Guuxw, Dam Skadaat and Dam Ansa Gawts.  2 Q    And those are each in turn identified on the  3 photocopy; is that right?  4 A    Yes.  5 Q    Now, in respect of photograph number two, in which  6 direction are you facing as you look out to that  7 ridge?  8 A    Here we are looking northeast -- pardon me,  9 northwest.  10 Q    All right.  And on the photocopy that's identified  11 as Lax An Hakw.  And it has been spelled there as  12 L-A-X, new word, A-N, new word, H-A-K-W.  Is that the  13 Shelf Ridge you referred to a moment ago?  14 A    Yes, it is.  15 THE COURT:  What is that the mountains on the horizon on the  16 left side?  17 THE WITNESS:  In photograph number two there is a range of  18 mountains that run into the picture?  19 THE COURT:  Yes.  20 THE WITNESS: Yes, all of that is Shelf Ridge.  21 MR. RUSH:  22 Q    That's moving from the left side of the photograph  23 in a diagonal to the right.  It appears to be some  24 distance?  25 A    The distance from the left-hand corner of the  26 photograph to the end of the mountain within the  27 photograph would be about five or six miles.  28 Q    And I think you indicated that that ridge  29 constituted a boundary between Tsabux and Luus; is  30 that correct?  31 A    Yes.  32 Q    Tsabux being the chief which has the territory to  33 the right side of the ridge?  34 A    On the near side, yes.  35 Q    On the near side.  And Luus on the far side?  36 A    Yes.  37 Q    There appears to be a creek which is a ribbon that  38 hooks around on the lower right-hand corner of that  39 photograph.  Can you identify that?  40 A    That's a crack in the bubble.  41 Q    I see.  42 A    But at the end of Shelf Ridge you see a valley where  43 the mountains drop off into a valley over -- over on  44 the other side is Gowihl Mihle, Old Kuldo which is a  45 location that we landed at during the flight.  And we  4 6 flew right up into that valley when we came from Old  47              Kuldo to Kisgagas. 7436  N. Sterritt (for Plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Rush  1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  THE  THE  THE  THE  MR.  THE  THE  THE  MR.  THE  MR.  COURT:  Old Kuldo is in that valley?  WITNESS: You can't see it. It is down in beside that?  COURT: To the left side of photograph two on page 19?  WITNESS: On the right-hand side of the photograph the  mountain drops off where the Shelf Ridge ends and  tapers off into a timber ridge?  RUSH:  That is in the upper right-hand quadrant in the back.  COURT:  Upper right or upper left?  WITNESS: Upper right.  It is mid-photo.  It is mid-photo on  the right-hand side about halfway up the photograph.  Mr. Sterritt, the photograph, at least to my eyes,  is playing some tricks.  If you take it from Shelf  Ridge --  Well, I took Shelf Ridge to be the ridge that is  coming in from the photograph from the left?  WITNESS: That's right.  MR. RUSH  THE COURT  RUSH:  COURT  RUSH:  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  A  Q  A  A  And it stretches into the right.  Three quarters of the way into the picture?  Yes, that's right.  And at the upper or right-hand end of that it drops  from a snow-covered area to a timber area; is that  right?  Yes, you go below timber-line.  Okay.  Now, is it below that area that drops off  that Old Kuldo is located?  You can see some mountains in the far distance.  Yes.  It is this side of those mountains and the other  side of the ridge that drops off Shelf Ridge.  Okay.  Now, in relation to the antenna of the  helicopter, where would Kisgagas be?  It would be towards the view.  You would come back  into the photograph and it is actually -- you are  looking northwest and you would have to turn and look  almost south.  Okay.  When you look into this photograph you are looking  northwest, you would have to look south.  Now, in photograph number three, what is the view  that we see there?  What we've down now is we've turned around and we  are going back down to -- back to Hazelton.  And I  take a photograph, a view to the west at the south end  of Shelf Ridge.  And you can see a mountain valley  there in the middle of the picture of the mountains in  the foreground.  And the creek that comes out of that  is Xsana lilix. 7437  N. Sterritt (for Plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Rush  1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  Q    And that's shown or identified on the photocopy as  being spelled as X-S-A-N-A, new word, L-I-L-I-X; is  that right?  A    Yes.  And you can see Gelt Saa Huupxwit.  Q    Yes.  A    You can see once again the reflection of the  printing from the bubble.  And you go up that and that  is the area of Gelt Saa Huupxwit.  Q    You have an identification upon the photocopy of  Gelt Saa Huupxwit, and it seems to be pointing at a  peak that's above the inverted printing on the bubble  in the photograph.  You referred to it as an area.  Is  it that peak that it directly refers to?  A    It is a very steep area where the trail goes up and  Huup is your forehead.  It is so steep that when you  are climbing it your forehead almost touches the  ground, so it is the area of the trail going up that  hillside.  THE COURT:  Mr. Sterritt, can you just turn your book around and  show me where you say Old Kuldo is on photograph  number two?  THE WITNESS: This is Shelf Ridge running here.  THE COURT:  Yes.  THE WITNESS: The lights are not reflecting, you can see that?  THE COURT:  I see that.  THE WITNESS: They run along and then they drop off down here.  The Skeena Valley is between that ridge and the  distant mountain you see in the photograph.  THE COURT:  Yes.  THE WITNESS: When you get down to the Skeena you are directly at  Old Kuldo.  You can't see it in here, I am locating --  THE COURT:  Is it is off to the top right corner of the  photograph, is it?  THE WITNESS: Yes.  THE COURT:  Yes, all right.  Do you know the lake on the right  side of photograph number one?  THE WITNESS: That's Dam Skadaat.  THE COURT:  Oh, yes, right.  MR. RUSH:  That's S-K-A-D-A-A-T.  THE COURT:  Yes.  MR,  RUSH:  COURT  RUSH:  Q  A  Mr. Sterritt, I just want to show you that  photograph you've been referring to.  Does that  indicate where Old Kuldo is located?  Yes, the arrow -- if you follow that arrow right  down behind that ridge down to the Skeena you would be  at Old Kuldo. 743?  N. Sterritt (for Plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Rush  1 THE COURT:  You are looking at photograph number two?  2 MR. RUSH:  Yes, I just tried to articulate that a little better  3 than I have.  4 THE COURT:  Is that number two?  5 THE WITNESS: Yes.  6 THE COURT:  Mine are reversed.  That makes it easier, thank you.  7 MR. RUSH:  8 Q    Now, Mr. Sterritt, in the lower right-hand corner,  9 photograph four, can you identify the direction that  10 you are facing when this photograph was taken?  11 A    This view is generally north.  12 Q    Yes.  13 A   And the immediate mountain in the -- that cuts  14 across almost half of the picture in the foreground,  15 it comes off the right-hand side of the picture and  16 cuts the diagonal right down almost to the lower  17 left-hand corner.  18 Q    Yes.  19 A    That's part of Gwitsa Heeyak.  20 Q    That's identified on the photocopy as being spelled  21 G-W-I-T-S-A, new word, H-E-E-Y-A-K.  Have you  22 identified its location?  23 A    Yes.  24 Q    With that sticker?  25 A    Yes.  Between that mountain and into the picture you  26 see a bunch of snow and a mountain to the left of the  27 snow there is a creek valley.  And on the map that  28 would be Sperry Creek which is Luu Lax Lo'obit.  And  29 the creek Luu Lax Lo'obit is the boundary between  30 Tsabux and Wii minoosik, so that the mountain with the  31 snow on and the mountain in front of it is the  32 territory of Wii minoosik.  As you move almost just to  33 the left of center, you see another series of  34 mountains and a creek or a valley coming into the  35 picture.  There is quite a high peek, you can see it  36 in the background there.  But you can see a valley  37 coming into the picture and that is Rosenthal Creek  38 and is known as Luu Lax Lo'obit.  Luu skadakwit is the  39 near one and Luu Lax Lo'obit is the other one.  40 Q    Okay.  Now, if I can just ask you -- it's difficult  41 for me to know the direction that I am facing as I  42 look into this photograph.  There are a number of  43 peaks and apparently a number of valleys.  Can you  44 tell me again which direction you are facing?  45 A    We are facing north.  46 Q    What is the position that you were in at the time  47 that you took this photograph? 7439  N. Sterritt (for Plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Rush  1 A    I am airborne almost directly over Shedin Creek  2 which appears on the map.  3 Q    And where would you be in relation to Kisgagas  4 Village?  5 A   About five miles -- oh, maybe eight miles northwest  6 of Kisgagas Village.  7 Q    All right.  And are there mountains to the right,  8 then, off to Gwitsa Heeyak?  9 A    The mountains farther to the right of the picture  10 would be Kisgagas Peak.  11 Q    Now, it would certainly help me and it may help His  12 Lordship if you could just identify on the map where  13 that place is.  14 A    Kisgagas Peak or the Village of Kisgagas is here and  15 the creek that I have just described Luu skadakwit is  16 this line on the map.  And Luu Lax Lo'obit is  17 Rosenthal Creek or this line here.  And we are almost  18 directly north of Kisgagas.  19 Q    All right.  There is a -- looks to be almost a 90  20 degree turn in the flight line moving in a westerly  21 and then a direct southerly direction.  Is that the  22 point at which those photographs were taken,  23 approximately that point?  24 A   Approximately that point, yes.  When we turn we get  25 a loop and it was doing the loop that --  26 Q    That you took those photographs?  27 A    That I took the photograph.  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36 THE COURT:  All right.  Thank you.  We will adjourn to 2  37 o'clock, please.  38 THE REGISTRAR:  Order in court.  Court will adjourn until 2:00.  39 (PROCEEDINGS ADJOURNED AND RESUMED PURSUANT TO LUNCHEON RECESS)  40  41  42 I hereby certify the foregoing to  43 be a true and accurate transcript  44 of the proceedings herein  45 transcribed to the best of my  46 skill and ability.  47 7440  N. Sterritt (for Plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Rush  LISA FRANKO, OFFICIAL REPORTER  UNITED REPORTING SERVICE LTD.  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  ~h2 Discussion  (RESUMED AT 2:00)  THE REGISTRAR:  Delgamuukw versus Her Majesty the Queen at bar,  my Lord.  THE COURT:  Mr. Rush, may I enquire whether it's your intention  to go through all five volumes today?  MR. RUSH:  No.  It's not my intention to go through all five  volumes, but I'm going to be referring Mr. Sterritt to  this trip.  Yes.  And I'm also going to be referring him to certain  photographs in all the volumes, and I'm going to be  asking him after we've completed this trip certain  questions about other trips that he comes to.  All right.  So I can assure your Lordship that we're not going to  do all of them, as much as I would like to, and I'm  sure your Lordship.  THE COURT:  I find it very interesting, it's just that I doubt  THE  MR.  THE  MR.  COURT  RUSH:  COURT  RUSH: 7441  N. Sterritt (for Plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Rush  1 if there's very much that's in dispute in this  2 evidence, and --  3 MR. GOLDIE:  We've admitted most of these.  The only ones we  4 haven't were those that I'm sure my friend is cleaning  5 up as he goes along.  6 THE COURT:  All right.  7 MR. RUSH:  My Lord, I think the major issue is the question of  8 the identification of the places by Gitksan name.  9 THE COURT:  Yes.  10 MR. RUSH:  And that is the question my friends are unable to  11 make admissions and where Mr. Sterritt has made -- has  12 identified certain features on the photocopies, and I  13 feel compelled to draw your Lordship's attention to  14 those.  15 MR. GOLDIE:  Well, I'm not sure that that's a big issue, and it  16 certainly could be dealt with with one question.  17 THE COURT:  Well, I'm in Mr. Rush's hands, and I was really  18 concerned about your time estimate, Mr. Rush, if you  19 were going to go through all the volumes.  20 MR. RUSH:  Yes.  I'm very alive to that problem.  21 THE COURT:  All right, thank you.  22 MR. RUSH:  My Lord, before we proceed with the photographs I  23 would like to hand up to your Lordship for annexing to  24 the overlay, the small overlay map that you have,  25 overlay map number 9A where reference -- where Mr.  26 Sterritt has made reference to certain Gitksan  27 territories that may be of assistance to you to  28 identify where on this overlay those are located, and  29 as I've indicated in my submission to you earlier  30 today, this is a map of the internal -- the external  31 boundaries and the internal boundaries of the Gitksan  32 territories.  33 THE COURT:  Yes, all right.  None of these have yet been marked  34 as exhibits, have they?  35 MR. RUSH:  As for identification.  36 THE COURT:  Have they?  37 MR. RUSH:  Yes -- numbers reserved, I believe.  38 THE REGISTRAR:  Yes.  They are for — I have eight numbers are  39 on the desk size and eight on the other.  40 THE COURT:  All right, thank you.  41 MR. RUSH:  I'm just going to ask Mr. Grant to take this.  42 THE REGISTRAR:  Thank you.  43 THE COURT:  Why don't you come around while you've got it in  44 your hands.  45 MR. RUSH:  I think the idea, my Lord, is to put the centre one  46 in first, the round one, and then to affix the others  47 after the centre ones. 7442  N.J. Sterritt (For Plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Sterritt  1 THE REGISTRAR:  Will this be marked with the other series or  2 separate?  3 THE COURT:  Not right now.  4 MR. RUSH:  I would like a number reserved in the same way a  5 number was reserved for the others, my Lord.  6 THE COURT:  Yes, all right.  Do you remember the series number?  7 THE REGISTRAR:  647 - 9A that one would be, if you wish.  647 -  8 8 is the one for the desk overlay, and the --  9 MR. RUSH:  646 on the large map?  10 THE REGISTRAR:  Yeah.  It will be 646-9A.  11 THE COURT:  Yes, all right.  12 MR. RUSH:  There is one for the larger map, my Lord, as well.  13 THE COURT:  Yes, all right, good.  14 MR. RUSH:  15 Q   Now, Mr. Sterritt, I want to direct your attention  16 back to the photographs, and in particular to page 20.  17 Now, the names that are identified on the photocopy of  18 the photograph shown on page 20, are they the Gitksan  19 names for the features which are located there?  20 A   Yes, they are.  21 Q   All right.  And Gwin wijix, as it's shown on  22 photograph number 2, is that the mountain that's  23 directly below the name on the photocopy?  24 A   Yes, it is.  And it's almost in the centre of the  25 picture, and that is on the boundary -- pardon me --  26 on the map as Tommy Jack Mountain, and the top of that  27 mountain forms a boundary between the territory of  28 Luus, which is on the right-hand slope or the east  29 slope of that.  We're looking north here.  It's on the  30 east slope of that and along the mountain tops.  On  31 the south -- pardon me -- the west slope of that  32 mountain would be the boundary or the territory of  33 Wiigyet, and just north of Wiigyet on part of that  34 mountain is also the boundary of Gwininitxw.  35 Q   Okay.  Now, if I can ask you to look at number 4.  The  36 direction that you're looking in is what?  37 A   This is a view east on the map.  The sharp mountain  38 that goes up and out of the picture almost in the  39 middle of the picture is in the area of Kisgagas Peak,  40 and I've referred to this from the other side of the  41 mountain already as Gallii sii yeeswit.  It's on this  42 side of that mountain.  It's the territory of Tsabux.  43 The mountain top there forms a boundary between  44 Wiigaak and Tsabux.  45 Q   All right.  46 A   There was no other English designation on there that  47 would locate that. 7443  N.J. Sterritt (For Plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Sterritt  1 Q   All right.  Would you go to -- the question Mr. Goldie  2 has asked me is whether or not the views that are  3 identified as being the views on the index beside in  4 this case page 20, are those -- is that an accurate  5 description of the views that are shown in the  6 photographs?  7 A   Yes, yes.  8 Q   All right.  Would you go to 22, please, page 22.  Now,  9 you're airborne here, Mr. Sterritt.  Can you just give  10 us an idea of generally where you are in relation to  11 the village of Kisgagas?  12 A  We have flown south of the village of Kisgagas and  13 we're looking up -- we're looking south to south-east,  14 and there is a creek that comes out of that valley  15 that is the boundary between Nii kyap on the north  16 side or north and Gwoimt on the south side, and the  17 name on the map would be Shegisic, S-h-e-g-i-s-i-c,  18 and that is Shegisic in Gitksan.  19 Q   And that's indicated in photograph number 1 as X-s-i,  20 new word G-e-t-s-i-c?  21 A   Yes.  22 Q   I should say the photocopy?  23 A   Yes.  On the photocopy.  24 Q   All right.  Now, would you direct your attention,  25 please, to photograph number 3 in that series, and can  26 you tell his Lordship what the direction is that we  27 are looking as we look into this photograph?  28 A   In photograph number 2?  29 Q   3?  30 A   In photograph number 3?  31 Q   Yes?  32 A   It is an identical view to photograph number 1 in  33 terms of -- it's a view south, possibly south-east a  34 certain amount, but it's the next creek south, or it's  35 the next main creek south of the last photograph of  36 number 1.  It's on Shewililba, which on the map  37 appears as S-h-e-w-i-1-i-l-b-a.  38 Q   That is the creek that is shown in the centre  39 virtually running down the centre of this photograph  40 number 3?  41 A   Yes, it does.  And the territory of -- part of the  42 territory of Gwoimt.  43 Q   All right.  In relation to number 3, where are you at  44 the point that you took number 4 on page 22?  45 A   In relation to 3 where?  46 Q   Yes.  47 A   In reference to number 4? 7444  N.J. Sterritt (For Plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Sterritt  1 Q   Yes?  2 A  Almost the same site.  I've moved.  Basically I turn  3 and look to the west.  The index might be more  4 accurate, but generally I turn and look down the creek  5 to the west, and that is Xsima Unxwit.  6 Q   I'm sorry, what is Xsi Unxwit?  7 A   It's a creek.  You can see the line right down the  8 centre of the picture running away from, going away  9 from the helicopter.  That's a creek, Xsi Unxwit.  10 Q   That's X-s-i U-n-x-w-i-t, and it appears to have in  11 parentheses "Gwoimt"?  12 A   Yes.  That's part of the territory of Gwoimt.  And  13 Black Stock -- well, Bretson Creek is Xsi Unxwit and  14 Black Stock Creek is on the opposite side.  This is to  15 locate yourself on a topographic map.  16 Q   Is Black Stock Creek shown in photo 4?  I know it's  17 named in the photocopy, I don't see it readily in  18 photo 4?  19 A   You can see some -- it's actually a burn that was  20 logged off after the burn.  It's just to the left of  21 the burned area.  It's into the left.  22 Q   That's in the upper right-hand quadrant, is it?  23 A   Yes, it is.  24 Q   All right.  25 A  And the Skeena River runs from right -- or from right  26 to left across the photograph just below where the  27 burn ends, and that is the boundary between Wiigyet  2 8 and Gwoimt.  29 Q   Okay.  And would you look at photograph -- page 23 and  30 the photographs on those pages?  31 A   Yes.  32 Q   In photo 1, maybe just describe what feature is being  33 identified there in the middle of the photograph?  34 A   If you -- well, the best way to locate it is to look  35 at the Xerox copy of that photograph, and you see the  36 word K'am yip'it.  That hill is -- that mountain is  37 K'am yip'it.  Only the part around the area of the  38 word K'am yip'it.  You see a mountain rising up to the  39 left, that is not part of K'am yip'it, only the part  40 that you see there, and that is within the territory  41 of Gwoimt, and it's an area that -- it's berry patch  42 that Geel, the House of Geel has access to.  43 Q   Now, in photograph number 2, what does that show?  44 A   That is a creek on the left side of K'am yip'it.  You  45 can see it right in the centre in the bottom of the  46 picture, and that creek runs all the way out to the  47 Skeena.  You're actually looking east here, and what 7445  N.J. Sterritt (For Plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Sterritt  1 I've done is simply identified that and I've  2 identified Grizzly Creek, because we locally call it  3 that because I had an incident with a grizzly bear  4 about 1953 farther down that creek, three of us, a  5 member of the House of Gwoimt, and myself and another  6 fellow had a problem.  7 Q   And in the photocopy it is identified as Xsi wii nax  8 neexs?  9 A   Yes.  10 Q   Is that right?  11 A   Yes.  12 Q   That's the name of the creek there?  13 A   Yes.  14 Q   And that's what you referred to colloquially as  15 Grizzly Creek, is it?  16 A   Yes.  17 MR. GOLDIE:  Should we change the index?  It said Xsu willa ba  18 Creek.  Should we change that to Grizzly?  19 MR. RUSH:  20 Q   Number 3, photograph number 3 indicates Xsu willa ba  21 Creek -- I'm sorry, I've been referring you to photo  22 number 2, excuse me.  23 A   I'm looking at photograph number 2.  It's -- it's  24 looking a view east towards the headwaters of Xsu  25 willa ba, and that is the area at the back -- you can  26 see the mountain valley that that creek comes out of,  27 and then you can see a glacier and some cliffs behind.  28 Xsu willa ba Creek flows to the left of the picture in  29 behind the ridge in behind the timbered ridge, between  30 the timbered ridge and the cliffs in behind, so that  31 is -- the index is correct there.  32 Q   And the index indicates the location as being over  33 McCutcheon Creek.  Is that the name -- English name  34 given to Xsi wii nax neexw?  35 A  McCutcheon Creek is Xsu wii nax neexs, and we call --  36 well, because of the incident we had, we locally, or a  37 few of us know it as Grizzly Creek and identified it  38 that way.  39 MR. GOLDIE:  Then it's McCutcheon?  40 A   Yes.  41 MR. RUSH:  42 Q   Now, McCutcheon Creek is again shown in 4 -- excuse  43 me, 3, or Xsi wii nax neexs?  44 A   Nax neexs, yes.  45 Q   And there is a creek shown in photograph 4 on page 23.  46 It's identified as Sterritt Creek?  47 A   That is south-east, and that is a boundary between 7446  N.J. Sterritt (For Plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Sterritt  1  2  3  Q  4  5  6  A  7  8  9  10  11  Q  12  A  13  Q  14  15  16  A  17  Q  18  A  19  20  21  22  23  Q  24  25  A  26  27  28  MR.  RUSH:  29  30  THE  COURT  31  32  MR.  RUSH:  33  THE  COURT  34  MR.  RUSH:  35  Q  36  A  37  Q  38  39  40  41  A  42  43  44  45  46  47  Gwoimt on the left side of the creek and Gutginuxw on  the right-hand side.  And Xsa iis, is that the Gitksan name that's given in  the middle of the photocopy that's spelled X-s-a  i-i-s?  It could have two I's in it.  That's the way it is on  here, but it may be on the affidavit as Xsa iis,  I-i-s.  That would be the chief who did -- the  hereditary chief who did the affidavit may have -- it  may appear there as i-i-s.  Now, page 24?  Yes.  Now, on page 24, the photograph that's on the  left-hand side, in this case I guess that would be  number 1, would it?  Yes.  Now, in that photograph there appear to be two lakes?  Yes.  The label on the Xerox, Dam Hoon, refers  actually to the upper lake, the lake uppermost in the  photograph, and the lake that is next to the label is  Dam Muuk, and there are no English names for that, and  that is within the territory of Gutginuxw.  There is a label in the middle of that photocopy  indicating Xsimatsi Ho'ot?  Yes.  That is on the map as Shediesh Creek,  S-h-e-d-i-e-s-h, and that is part of the territory of  Gutginuxw, the photograph numbered --  Just pause a minute.  My Lord, I wonder if we could  maybe just pause for a moment, Mrs. Howard seems to --  :  Well, Mrs. Howard could be excused if she wishes,  we're getting along fine for the moment.  She's been assisting with some of the spellings.  :  Yes.  Well, certainly take a break.  Now, Mr. Sterritt —  Yes.  Just directing you to the third photograph on page 24.  At the bottom of the photocopy you've identified rock  at mouth of Xsin Djihl is Gil Dip Nakw.  What are you  referring to?  Oh, you can't see it in the picture.  I -- it's  actually right about where "rock" is written.  There's  a huge rock in the middle of the Skeena and it has a  name, and the name is Gil Dip Nakw, but the creek,  Xsin Djihl, that is the valley of the creek Xsin  Djihl.  If you see the logging area there you can see  the impression of the creek right at the very 7447  N.J. Sterritt (For Plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Sterritt  1 right-hand corner of the logging area, and that is  2 Xsin Djihl, or on the map I think it's Utsun,  3 U-t-s-u-n, Creek, and the mountain feature up on the  4 right-hand side is Wii Nii Daahl Dihl, and it's a  5 particular feature on -- I don't remember the English  6 name for that mountain, but it's -- that is spelled  7 W-i-1 N-i-i D-a-a-h-1 D-i-h-1.  Just to help out Mrs.  8 Howard, Xsin Djihl is spelled X-s-i-n D-j-i-h-1.  Gil  9 Dip Nakw, G-i-1 D-i-p N-a-k-w.  10 Q   All right.  Mr. Sterritt, would you look to page 25.  11 Photograph number 2, what does that show?  12 A  Well, actually we're now on another flight.  We're  13 heading out on another trip.  14 Q   All right.  15 A   The last page was the end of that photo sequence for  16 that trip, and --  17 Q   So that that trip ends at page 24, does it?  18 A   Yes, it does.  19 Q   All right.  And you're on another trip.  What's the  20 date of this trip?  21 A   I believe it was the next day, I think.  It must have  22 been the 23rd.  23 Q   The contents of volume 1 indicates the next day to be  24 June 23rd, 1983, showing eight station stops?  25 A   Yes.  2 6 Q   All right.  27 A   That was the commencement of that, and I took some  28 photographs as we headed north to where we would do  29 our first landing.  30 Q   All right.  I wonder if you could just set the book  31 aside and trace around the flight pattern that you  32 took on that date of June 23rd.  33 A   Hazelton is here, and basically we flew straight  34 across country to Bas Choo or the McConnell Range at  35 Bear Lake, and our first landing was right next to  36 Moos, The Thumb, at Bear Lake, and it appears as The  37 Thumb on the topographic map.  The beginning of the  38 first station of that flight appears on this map as 1,  39 and beside it is June 23rd, 1983, and from there we  40 flew and landed on a mountain, Tsim Gehl Loop, it has  41 no name on the map, which is just on the north side of  42 the Sustut River.  Tsim Gehl Loop is T-s-i-m G-e-h-1  43 L-o-o-p.  We then flew and landed east of Max Hal Lax  44 Uut, that's Moose Valley, M-a-x H-a-1 L-a-x U-u-t.  On  45 the map it appears as Moose Valley.  We landed on a  46 mountain to the east of there, and then we moved up to  47 Mount Forrest and landed, and we actually did 12 7448  N.J. Sterritt (For Plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Sterritt  1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  THE COURT  16  A  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  Q  25  26  27  28  A  29  30  31  32  THE COURT  33  A  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  MR. RUSH:  43  Q  44  A  45  Q  46  47  A  stations there, and in order to see in several  directions we had to move by foot about a quarter of a  mile from one station to the other, and it appears at  numbers 4 and 5.  We then flew out towards Thutade  Lake, so the flight line isn't exactly correct here.  We flew out and along beside Thutade Lake and up  Thutade Creek, and over and landed near -- right near  Foster Peak, Foster Peak at station number 6 on the  west side of the Skeena at Sxi luu skeexwit, I'm not  sure of the English name, if there is one on there for  it.  It might be Foster Creek, I'm not sure.  From  there we went to station 7, which is just north of  Sxuwin Hliiyuun, Mosque River or Mosque Creek.  That's  on the east side of the Skeena.  :  M-o-s-q-u-e?  M-o-s-q-u-e, yes.  We then flew south to the south end  of Na'ahl Ta'ada, N-a-'-a-h-l T-a-'-a-d-a, which is  just west of the junction of Bear River and the Skeena  River.  From there we flew west close to Slamgeesh  River along the Skeena and then landed at station  number 9 on Shelf Ridge, Lax An Hak, and from Shelf  Ridge we then returned to Hazelton.  That was the end  of the photo sequence on that day.  All right.  If you wouldn't mind returning to your  seat.  Coming back to my question about page 25,  referring you to photograph number 2.  What does that  depict?  That's the -- right at the -- under the antenna of the  helicopter is a canyon, and that is Xsu Gwin Yaa'a.  That's on the map as Shegunia, and it's spelled X-s-u  G-w-i-n Y-a-a-'-a.  :  And that's a river or a creek?  That is a river.  It's a boundary between Gutginuxw  and Wosilaxha and then -- and also further up it's a  boundary between Gutginuxw and Yagosip, and you can  see if you just follow it, it runs to the right and  you can see a bit of a peak in the right-hand  quadrant.  Well, the river runs then to the -- in a  diagonal to the left of the picture, part way across  the picture, and that is -- that Salmon River is a  boundary all the way up.  Xsu Gwin Yaa'a is Salmon River?  Yes.  And photograph number 4, can you identify what is  depicted in photograph 4?  This is a shot -- your view is north, and the Xsu Gwin 7449  N.J. Sterritt (For Plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Sterritt  1  2  3  4  5  6  7  Q  8  9  A  10  THE COURT  11  A  12  13  MR. RUSH:  14  Q  15  16  17  A  18  19  20  Q  21  22  23  24  25  A  26  Q  27  28  A  29  30  31  32  33  34  Q  35  36  A  37  Q  38  A  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  Q  47  A  Yaa'a, if you come in -- if you come down the picture  on the right-hand side -- on the right-hand quadrant  from the top you come to a level or a ridge, and then  right below that within about a quarter of an inch is  another ridge. That is the headwater of Xsu Gwin  Yaa'a, and that's what I'm taking a picture of there.  Okay. At this point, Mr. Sterritt, how far would you  be from the village of Kispiox?  Kispiox would be off to the left of the picture.  :  Sorry, Kispiox or --  The village of Kispiox would be off to the left of the  picture about 25 miles.  Mr. Sterritt, I take it this would be on your flight  from Hazelton over to the first station stop; is that  right?  Yes.  As we travel north to east of Bear Lake I'm  simply taking pictures of different areas and trying  to maintain the photo record of the territory.  Okay.  Now, if you'll refer to page 26.  Now, I want  to first ask you if photographs 1, 2, and 3, where  there are Gitksan names, do they identify the feature  that's in the photograph by reference to the photocopy  where the Gitksan name is located?  Yes, they do.  Um-hum.  And in photograph 4, can you tell his  Lordship what it is that that photograph depicts?  There's a feature when you come in from the left, the  mountain on the left-hand quadrant of the picture,  that is Wii Yawa Gwiikw, and it's a groundhog area up  on the mountain just above timber line, and there is a  creek that comes off the mountain Xsiluu skaa Djeewak,  and there's no English name for that creek.  Xsiluu skaa Djeewak is X-s-i-1-u-u S-k-a-a  D-j-e-e-w-a-k?  Yes.  And is that creek shown on photograph 4?  You can just barely see it.  It's approximately in the  centre of the picture, but you can barely see it.  The  Babine River runs from the right-hand side of the  picture right and continues on through to the  right-hand side of a bald knoll in the centre of the  picture, and then onto the Skeena and runs down the  Skeena, so that's Xsiluu Skaa Djeewak runs through  there.  That's the Babine River?  Yes. 7450  N.J. Sterritt (For Plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Sterritt  1 Q   Now, is there another spelling by which Xsiluu Skaa  2 Djeewak is known or is spelled?  3 A   No.  That's —  4 Q   Okay.  Now, Mr. Sterritt, the ribbon-like river  5 feature that flows through what looks to be three of  6 these photographs on page 27, 2, 3 -- excuse me, 1, 2,  7 3; is that all the same river?  8 A   Yes, it is.  9 Q   And that is which river?  10 A   That's the Babine River.  11 Q   Okay.  And the feature that's identified in photograph  12 2 is Gal Djaphl Maskayay?  13 A   Yes.  14 Q   What is that?  15 A  Well, what that means in English, the translation is  16 the home of the bull heads, and one time the river ran  17 around that ox bow, and that feature is named by the  18 House of Miluulak.  There is a boundary you're looking  19 at, a boundary area here between Miluulak and  20 Djogaslee, Miluulak being on the left-hand side of the  21 river and Djogaslee being on the right-hand side.  22 Q   Mr. Sterritt, just if you'll direct your attention to  23 photograph number 3 on page 27, on the index it  24 indicates that the location is over the Babine River  25 and it's a view north towards Shelagyote River?  26 A   That's right.  That is looking north up Shelagyote  27 River.  28 Q   All right.  It wasn't quite clear to me whether the  29 river that runs in a diagonal from the left to the  30 right, is that Shelagyote or the Babine?  31 A   That's Shelagyote River.  32 Q   All right.  At the point this photograph was taken are  33 you over top of the Babine?  34 A   Yes.  35 Q   All right, thank you.  Refer you now please to page  36 28.  Now, Mr. Sterritt, Xsan Jap in photograph 2  37 refers to what feature?  38 A   In photograph 2?  39 Q   Yes?  40 A   Xsan Jap?  41 Q   Yes?  42 A   It refers to the creek coming out of the mountains  43 there.  44 Q   That's on the right-hand side of the photograph?  45 A   Yes.  46 Q   That's spelled X-s-a-n J-a-p.  And Xsan Hakw on the  47 lower left photo, photo 3, what does that refer to? 7451  N.J. Sterritt (For Plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Sterritt  1 A   That's another creek parallel to the last creek that  2 comes out of those same mountains.  There's about  3 three creeks, there's Xsan Jap, Xsan Hakw and Xsan Akw  4 that all come out of that same area, and they parallel  5 each other.  There's no English name, as far as I  6 know.  It's in the area of -- they all flow into Xsi  7 Yaga Mahlit.  8 Q   Could you give us the Gitksan spelling for that,  9 please.  10 A   X-s-i Y-a-g-a M-a-h-1-i-t.  Those are three different  11 words as I spelled them.  12 Q   Now, would you refer now to page 29?  13 A   Yes.  14 Q   And photograph number 1.  What does that depict?  15 A   That's Gallix No'ohl Lo'obit.  We're looking north and  16 we're airborne over Nilkitkwa River, Xsi yaga Mahlit.  17 Q   All right.  Gallix No'ohl Lo'obit, that is the  18 mountain that is depicted in the centre of the  19 photograph?  2 0 A   Yes.  And that -- the high land on that mountain forms  21 a boundary between Haiwas on the right-hand side and  22 Miluulak on the left-hand side.  23 Q   The left-hand side being west; is that right?  24 A   Yes.  25 Q   Okay.  Now, the Gitksan names that are shown on  26 photographs 2, 3 and 4 on that page, are they -- do  27 they accurately identify the features that are pointed  28 to by the arrows in those photographs?  29 A   Yes.  Except that Gwii yoo on photograph number 2,  30 G-w-i-i Y-o-o, actually refers not to the bald  31 mountain in the middle, but to a mountain way north of  32 that in -- it barely is visible to you -- to the  33 immediate right of that centre peak, are -- the first  34 rise is Lax anx xsan.  35 Q   You've got that identified there?  36 A   Yes, I have.  37 Q   On a photocopy, and that's spelled L-a-x a-n-x  38 x-s-a-n?  39 A   Yes.  And the next part of that for about half an inch  40 is Saa hahla gyoot.  41 Q   You also have that identified?  42 A   Yes.  43 Q   In the photocopy?  44 A   Yes.  45 Q   And you say that Gwii Yoo is considerably in the  46 background?  47 A   Yes. 7452  N.J. Sterritt (For Plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Sterritt  1 Q   To the left of that?  2 A  Well, it's an extension of Lax anx xsan.  And that is  3 in the area just west of the north end of Bear Lake.  4 Q   All right.  Now, Bear Lake is identified on photograph  5 3?  6 A   Yes.  7 Q   And it's Dam Smaex, D-a-m S-m-a-e-x?  8 A  And it takes up the middle of the picture, and --  9 Q   Now, photograph 4 on page 29, Mr. Sterritt, you've  10 identified several lakes, or at least one major lake,  11 and I want to ask you, that lake in the middle of  12 photograph 4 seems to be in two parts, or possibly  13 even three parts.  Is the water body -- or are the  14 water bodies that are shown in this photograph, are  15 they all Bear Lake?  16 A   No.  You can see the main large feature is Bear Lake,  17 Dam Smaex.  18 Q   That's as you have it marked on photo 4, is it?  19 A   Yes.  20 Q   And that's the photocopy of photo 4?  21 A   Yes.  22 Q   All right.  And what about the one dead in the centre  23 of the photograph?  24 A   There's a feature between Bear Lake and that lake, and  25 that is Moohl, M-o-o-h-1.  It's not on -- there's no  26 feature or no English name for that, and I'm trying to  27 recall, I think that the next feature is Gwiliidaa --  28 or no, pardon me.  The feature running to the right  29 from the end of Bear Lake I think is Gwiliidaa and the  30 feature at the south end, or that lake you're  31 referring to, is Dam Maas.  I don't have all of the  32 name there, but it refers to bark, and then Dam gwits  33 ahl loots is in the lower right-hand corner, and that  34 would be on the map as Azuklotz, Azuklotz Lake.  35 Q   So on the -- on the government map Azuklotz Lake is  36 the one in the lower right-hand corner of photo 4?  37 A   Yes.  38 Q   And Dam Maas, that's a portion of the name, that's of  39 the lake that's dead centre in that photograph?  40 A   Yes?  41 A   Dam Wilp,Maas is I think what it is.  42 Q   Dam Wilp Maas.  Now, on page 30 you identify a feature  43 called The Thumb?  44 A   That's as you come in from the left-hand side of the  45 picture you can see about just over an inch into the  46 picture there is a rock formation that reaches up.  47 It's about 150 feet high, and that is The Thumb, Moos, 7453  N.J. Sterritt (For Plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Sterritt  1 M-o-o-s.  2 Q   What is -- yes, I'm sorry?  3 A  And then Bas Choo is to the right of that, and that is  4 on the McConnell Range, and the boundary -- it's  5 external boundary running along the top of that  6 mountain and coming on down to the -- out of the right  7 of the picture, and the creek that comes down almost  8 into the lower left-hand corner is Xsi Gwits Ahl  9 Loots, and that is X-s-i G-w-i-t-s A-h-1 L-o-o-t-s.  10 Q   Is there a boundary that is depicted in this  11 photograph?  12 A   Yes.  Along the top of that -- along the top of Bas  13 Choo, the mountain right in the -- that runs the  14 middle of the picture.  15 Q   Bas Choo, B-a-s C-h-o-o?  16 A   Yes.  17 Q   What's the boundary that's there?  18 A   The territory on the west side of that mountain is the  19 territory of Nii Kyep, and on the -- and that is an  20 external boundary on the east side.  21 Q   Thank you.  If you will refer to page 31.  Now, Mr.  22 Sterritt, in my binder I have a break there.  It says  23 volume 1, number 4.  24 A   Yes.  What happened actually, I took pictures on -- I  25 will have to get the station number -- station number  26 2 on that day.  From there on up to this third station  27 my film did not develop, so I didn't get any pictures  28 on this trip, although I was in the area again in  29 1985, and backed it up with pictures then.  I did get  30 pictures when I landed at station number 3, but in  31 between I didn't -- I wasn't able to get pictures.  32 Q   All right.  In the -- if you will just turn back to  33 the divider here.  It indicates "Volume 1 number 4,  34 April 13th, 1987, no negatives in binder".  What does  35 that refer to?  36 A   I think on that date the original binder, which would  37 be my binder, the negatives may be missing for the  38 rest of that flight, but I'm not positive about that,  39 I would have to check.  40 Q   All right.  So from the point that's shown on page 31  41 to the next station stop were photographs taken at a  42 subsequent occasion but at a place that is what, close  43 to the flight line that you took in 1983?  44 A   No, no.  45 Q   All right.  46 A   The pictures that I took from station 2 and airborne  47 between station 1 and station 3, that film didn't 7454  N.J. Sterritt (For Plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Sterritt  1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  MR.  MR.  MR.  MR.  Q  A  Q  A  A  Q  A  take.  All right.  I then went to station 3, and from station 3 I managed  to -- well, I took pictures, the third film that I had  worked.  I see.  Those pictures didn't work.  I mean I can't remember  what happened to the film.  They didn't turn out, so really what is shown from  page 31 on is your photographs from station 3 on?  Yes.  All right.  In looking at page 31, can you identify  what's depicted in photograph 1 -- the date of 1987  that's reported on that divider, I take it that that  has nothing to do with the sequence of the photographs  that are being shown on this flight?  No.  On that date I must have been going through my  binder and wrote something on the index that I was  doing that I couldn't find the negatives for this --  for this particular group of photographs.  Q   I see.  So that was a note in effect to yourself?  A   To myself that ended up getting on the index.  GOLDIE:  The note was made on April the 13th, 1987?  A  Yes, yep.  GOLDIE:  All right.  RUSH:  Photo 1, what does that depict, Mr. Sterritt?  Well, on the lower -- on the area to the right is what  is known as Max Hal Lax Uut, and that is Moose Valley.  We're looking south here.  Now, you don't see Moose Valley in photo 1 as such, do  you, on page --  You see part of it.  You see a bit of it to the right,  the lower right.  Are you looking at photograph number 1?  Pardon me, I'm sorry, looking at number 2.  Q  A  A  THE COURT  A  RUSH:  Q  It looks like it's the beginning of the roll actually,  or the end?  A   Once again, yes, running through it to get to the  first shot -- I'm sorry, looking at number 1.  MR. GOLDIE:  The index says "N/A"?  A   Not applicable.  It's the beginning of the roll.  THE COURT:  So Moose Valley is on the right photograph number 2  in this, is it?  A   Yes.  MR. RUSH: 7455  N.J. Sterritt (For Plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Sterritt  1  Q  2  A  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  Q  11  12  A  13  Q  14  A  15  Q  16  17  A  18  19  Q  20  21  A  22  Q  23  24  A  25  26  27  Q  28  A  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  Q  37  38  A  39  Q  40  A  41  MR. RUSH:  42  THE COURT  43  44  THE REGIS1  45  46  47  All right.  And in order to locate yourself within the photograph  in the middle of the picture -- in the distances you  can see a lake.  That is Sustut Lake, which is the  headwaters of Xsu Wii Ax, or the Sustut River.  And  the territory of Nii Kyep is where we're located at  this station and down to the right of the photograph.  It does not go to Sustut Lake, but I'll show it  clearer to you in the bottom two pictures.  All right.  Now, just for my clarity here, you've been  referring to photograph number 2?  Yes.  On page 31?  Yes.  And you're saying the territory Nii Kyep was off to  the right of that photograph?  It's on -- the boundary is on the height of land very  close to where we're standing here.  All right.  And then Moose Valley is shown as a  panoramic shot in the bottom two photographs, 3 and 4?  Yes.  And you said you were going to show where the Nii Kyep  boundary is located on those?  If you look at photograph number 3, you can see a  mountain valley coming in from the -- on the  right-hand quadrant.  Yes?  A valley there.  That is the valley of Xsuwii Ax or  Sustut River, Xsuwii Ax is X-s-u-w-i-i A-x, and the  river itself up to about the -- just beyond the middle  of the picture is the boundary.  It's an external  boundary, Nii Kyep towards you in the picture and the  Carrier-Sekani people being on the other side of the  Sustut river there, and Nii Kyep's territory is all of  the mountains that you see to the right.  And by "the right", you mean start in the photograph 3  and stretch over into photograph 4?  Yes.  Does that include Moose Valley in the foreground?  Yes, it does.  Now, photograph -- please turn to 32.  :  I think we'll take the afternoon adjournment now,  please, Mr. Rush.  ['ñ†RAR:      Order   in   court.  (AFTERNOON RECESS TAKEN AT 3:00) 7456  N.J. Sterritt (For Plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Sterritt  1 I hereby certify the foregoing to be  2 a true and accurate transcript of the  3 proceedings herein transcribed to the  4 best of my skill and ability  5  6  7  9 Graham D. Parker  10 Official Reporter  11 United Reporting Service Ltd.  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20 - 7457  N. Sterritt (for Plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Rush  1 (PROCEEDINGS RESUMED)  2  3 THE REGISTRAR:  Order in court.  4 THE COURT:  Mr. Rush.  5  6 EXAMINATION IN CHIEF BY MR. RUSH CONTINUED:  7 Q   All right.  Mr. Sterritt, referring you to page 32,  8 the names that are on the photocopy indicating  9 certain features there, do they correctly refer to  10 the physical features depicted in the photograph?  11 A   Yes, they do.  If you look in photograph number two  12 in the same location where the label appears on  13 photograph — or pardon me the xerox, Dewar Peak,  14 D-E-W-A-R, you can see a peak there and that is  15 correct.  16 Q   So the physical feature is right below the labeling?  17 A   Yes.  18 Q Is   that  the  same with  Mount  Forrest   in  photo  four?  19 A Yes,   you   can't   see  it   so  clearly  on  the   xerox,   but  20 if  you look  in the  photograph you  can  see   in the  21 middle,   the very middle   of   that  picture  a mountain  22 that  appears  almost   like  a —  it  is quite  a  long  23 plateau,   but  the  face   of   it is  almost  like  a low,  24 inverted bow  and  that   is Mount  Forrest.     And  that  25 was  one  of   the  locations where we landed.     And  the  26 boundary  of   'Nii  Kyap  runs  approximately  down the  27 side   of   the   ridge.  28 Q Of   Mount  Forrest?  29 A No,   of  photograph  number four  and  then across  the  30 valley.     And you  can't   see   it  because   of   the view  31 because  it  runs  along   the height   of  land  and  up  32 along Mount   Forrest   and  continuing  to   the   right   of  33 the  picture  as you   go  along   the height   of  land  there  34 to  the  right  of  Mount  Forrest.     And  the  intervening  35 territory  to  the left   of   that  is  the   territory   of  36 'Nii Kyap.  37 Q   All right.  Page 33, the photographs one and two  38 show a panorama and three and four show a panorama.  39 And they are labeled on the photocopies as McConnell  40 Range looking — is it northwest?  41 A   No, you're —  42 Q   Looking north in the top two and looking northeast  43 in the bottom two?  44 A   Yes.  And that is the McConnell Range.  And the  45 height of land that runs along the photograph number  46 two on page 33 right at the tail of the helicopter,  47 you follow that height of land along and then down 7458  N.   Sterritt   (for   Plaintiffs)  In  chief  by Mr.   Rush  1 onto Maxhla Lax Uut   being Moose  Valley.  2 Q That's  off  to  the left?  3 A Yes.  4 Q   Of photo number one on page 33?  5 A   Yes.  5 Q   34?  7 A That's  a view  east  —  pardon me,   we are  on  34.  B A        Now we  are looking  east this is  along  the Gitksan  9 territory  out   of   the  territory  of   'Nii  Kyap.  0 Q All   right.     Photographs  one  and  two  on  the  photocopy  L are  looking  east   on Menard Creek from  Ingenika River  2 to McConnell?  3 A   Yes.  Ingenika is spelled I-N-G-E-N-I-K-A for the  i help of the reporter.  5 Q   And where is Ingenika River in either photo one or  5 two?  7 A Menard Creek flows  out   of  photograph  number   two and  3 the  Ingenika  River  is   down to  the   right.  9 Q It  appears  to  be   in  the valley  off   to  the  right-hand  D center   of   the  photograph,   photograph  two?  L A        Yes.  2 Q Now,   the  directions  that  are  identified  in the  3 photocopies  of   three  and four,   are   they  correct?  i A Yes.  5 Q All   right.     Please   go  to 35.     In the  photocopy you  5 identify   the  person   'Nii  Kyap,   is  that  David  7 Gunanoot?  3 A Yes,   it  is.  9 Q As  being the  person  depicted  in  this photograph.  0 Now,   the  direction   that you  are  facing  and   the  area  1 behind Mr.   Gunanoot,   what  is  that  area?  2 A That's looking  north — well,   northeast.  3 Q Yes.  4 A        Up towards   the   south   end of  —  pardon me,   the  5 northeast  end  of  Thutade Lake.  5 Q In  the  index  the view   is  indicated as  northeast  and  7 then  in  parentheses   it  indicates   Fredrikson Peak.  8 Is  Fredrikson  Peak  identifiable?  9 A I would have  to have  a map to  do  that.     He is  D standing  on Mount  Forrest  and I  would have  to have a  1 map to locate   that,   but   I  can't  pick  it  out  from  2 that  photograph.  3 Q Is  Fredrikson  Peak  located  in that  direction behind  4 Mr.   Gunanoot?  5 A Yes.  6 Q In  that   general   area?  7 A Yes. 7459  N.  In  Sterritt  chief  by  (for   Plaintiffs)  Mr.   Rush  1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  LI  12  13  14  L5  L6  17  L8  L9  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  11  42  43  44  15  46  47  MR.    GOLDIE:  THE   COURT:  MR.    GOLDIE:  MR.   RUSH:  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  MR.    GOLDIE:  MR.   RUSH:  Q  Okay.     Now,   the  photographs that  appear   to make   the  panorama  at  two,   three  and four moving  at a  diaganol  from  lower   left  up to  right,   that  you've  identified  as  the view  down from Moose Valley from Mount  Forrest?  Yes.  I'm sorry,   where  is that  identification?  Page  35  on  the  photocopy.  Yes,   all   right.     I  am   trying  to  follow  the  index.  Well,  we   can  clear   that   up later.  Now,   page  36,   Mr.   Sterritt.     Mr.   Sterritt,   on  page  35   the   index  identifies   photographs  two,   three  and  four.     Would you  just   look  to  the  index,   please?  Yes.  Looking  at  photograph   two  it   indicates  the view   is  east   toward  Thorne Lake,   I  take   that  to  be  in  parentheses?  Yes.  And   is  that  correct?  It's  barely visible  on  the left-hand side.  Yes.  You  can  see  in the  immediate  foreground  of   that  picture   there  is  some  dirt  coming  in about midway  through   the picture.     Right  on  the  edge  of   the  slope  there,   there  is  a — actually   there  is a  black   rock  and  then   right   immediately  beside   that   is  the  lake,  Thorne Lake.     It  is  at   the  end  of   the meadow  that  runs  around  to  the  left  in  that  photograph.  And with   respect  to  photograph  number   three which  is  the middle  of   the  three  photographs  that  are matched  together,   it  is  identified  that  the view  is  northwest   McConnell  Range?  Yes.     The  McConnell  Range  runs  along   through   that  picture.     Pardon me,   northwest?  Yes.  Photograph  35?  Photo  three?  That   should be  —  that  should  read southeast.     That  should  read  southeast.  Thank you.  And  then  off   in photograph  number  four   on  page  35   it  identifies  southwest  to Sustut Lake?  It   is very  difficult  to  see,   but   in  the  center   of  the valley about  a quarter   of   the way  down  the  photograph you  can  see  a very   light  spot   in the 7460  N.   Sterritt   (for   Plaintiffs)  In   chief   by  Mr.   Rush  1 photograph  and that  is the area   of   Sustut Lake.  2 Q Thank you.     And  in  the  photocopy you  also identify  3 Sustut   Peak?  4 A        Yes,   that  is the  peak as you  come  up off  the valley  5 bottom  Maxhla Lax  Uut   up to  the   right.     It  is  the  6 highest   peak  in  the mountains  that  commence   there  7 almost  in  the middle   of   the  picture.  8 Q All   right.     I  have moved now  to  page  —  9 A Maxhla  Lax  Uut,   M-A-X-H-L-A,   another word,   L-A-X,  0 another   word,   U-U-T.  1 Q All   right,   in  Photograph 35,   Mr.   Sterritt,   is  there  2 a  boundary  of   the Gitksan Wet'suwet'en territories  3 located  in  there?  4 A Yes.     There  is a  creek  that  runs  around  into Thorne  5 Lake  and   then  there  is  another   creek   that   comes  6 off  —   it   is  cut   off   in my  photograph,   but   it  comes  7 off   the very   right-hand  side   of   the  photograph  8 number   four.  9 Q Yes.  0 A And  the height   of   land  between  the  creek  that  drains  1 to   the   east  and  the   creek   that  drains  to  the west  is  2 the  boundary.     And  it   runs  across  the height  of   land  3 approximately  almost  to  the left-hand  side   of  4 photograph   number   four  where  the meadows are.     There  5 is  a  height   of land  in   that  area  and  then  it  runs  on  6 up  to  the McConnell   Range  and  along  the McConnell  7 Range  and  along  down Sustat   Creek  and  that  is   the  8 boundary   of   'Nii  Kyap,   the  boundary  being on  the  9 left-hand  side   of   that  boundary.  0 Q All   right.     Page   36.     Mr.   Sterritt,   just   before we  1 go,   Mr.   Gunanoot  is   standing  at   station  three?  2 A Yes.  3 Q All   right.  4 A   Oh, no, I think he would be standing at station —  5 the first station was Connelly Range,  6 C-O-N-N-E-L-L-Y, -at Bear Lake.  The second station  7 is on Tsim Gehl Loop, T-S-I-M G-E-H-L L-O-O-P near  8 the Sustat River and the third station is on the  9 McConnell Range, M-C-C-O-N-N-E-L-L-Y.  0 Q   So it is either four or five?  1 A   Yeah.  2 Q That   is  the  case  with   the  photographs  shown on  page  3 36,   station  point  is four   or  five?  4 A        At  this point   I  have moved to —   I believe  I have  5 moved  to   station five,   yes.  6 Q Okay.  7 A I  have moved over   in order   to  get  a  better   shot   down 7461  N.   Sterritt   (for   Plaintiffs)  In   chief   by  Mr.   Rush  1 the  valley   towards  Wisan  Skit,   W-I-S-A-N,   S-K-I-T,  2 two  different words.  3 Q Okay.     If  you  look  on  page  37,   photograph  number   one  4 is  similarly  taken  from Mount   Forrest?  5 A Yes,   it   is.  6 Q And  all   the  photographs  on  37   are  taken from  station  7 five?  8 A        Yes,   they   are.     We also moved over   to get a view  of  9 Thutade Lake,   that's  T-H-U-T-A-D-E.     And  the  0 boundary   for   'Nii  Kyap  runs  along  the  north   shore  of  1 Thutade Lake which is visible   through  photographs —  2 in  parts  of   photographs  two,   three  and four.     And  .3 'Nii  Kyap is on  the   south  side  of   that and  his  4 territory   is  from  the  bottom  of   the photograph  in to  .5 the  edge   of   the lake.  6 Q And  beyond  the  north   shore  of  Thutade Lake,   is  that  .7 the   territory  of   the Gitksan  chief?  8 A No.  9 Q Do you   know whose   territory  that  is?  :0 A It's  the  Stikine  Tahl ten.  1 Q All   right.     In page  38  there  are  photographs again  2 of  Thutade Lake.     Are   these   taken  from  the  same  31                                   place   or   have you  now  moved your   position?  4 A        Which  page?  .5         MR.   RUSH:       Page   38.  !6          THE   COURT:      3 8?  .1          MR.   RUSH:  8 Q 38.  9 A        We  are  now  airborne.  0 Q Yes.  1 A And we've  flown west   from Mount  Forrest.     And the  2 photograph number  one is  a view  northeast  towards  3 the   end  of  Thutade Lake  and  that  continues  to  be  the  4 boundary  of   'Nii  Kyap all   along   the   north  shore.  5 Q All right. Now, Mr. Sterritt, in photograph number  i6 four on that page you made reference to Wisan skit,  >7 W-I-S,   new  word,   S-K-I-T and you've  identified a  8 feature  on  the  photograph.     Is   that  pointing  to a  9 mountain  or   to a  river   or   to what?  10 A        Well,   the  best way  to locate yourself  on  that  >1 photograph   is  the  small   mountain  in the very  center  \2 of   the  picture.     That is Gwi  Duults,   that's  G-W-I,  i3 one  word,   D-U-U-L-T-S.     And  that  is —  would appear  4 on  the map as South  Pass  Peak.  .5  \6  17  Q  That's Gwi Duults?  A  Gwi   Duults,   yes.  Q  Yes. 7462  N.  In  Sterritt  chief   by  (for   Plaintiffs)  Mr.   Rush  1  A  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  Q  14  A  15  16  Q  17  A  18  MR   RUSH:  19  20  21  MR.  GOLDIE:  22  MR.  RUSH:  23  Q  24  A  25  26  27  28  29  Q  30  31  A  32  33  Q  34  A  35  Q  36  37  38  A  39  MR.  RUSH:  40  41  THE  COURT:  42  43  44  THE  WITNESS  45  46  47  THE  COURT:  And  then to the —   just  to the left within half  an  inch  is  a  ridge and  that   ridge is Wisan  skit.     Just  to  the  ridge —   left  end of   the South  Pass  Peak you  come  to Gwi  Duults —   or   pardon me,   to Wisan  skit.  And  that   is a  boundary   area  for   'Nii  Kyap,   for  Miluulak,   for Tsabux  and for Wii cjaak.     'Nii  Kyap is  •N-I-I  K-Y-A-P,   Miluulak   is  M-I-L-U-U-L-A-K,   Tsabux  is   T-S-A-B-U-X,   Wii .gaak   is  W-I-I .G-A-A-K.     South  Pass  Peak,   Gwi Duults  is also a  boundary.     It  is a  boundary  between Wii minoosik  to   the west   side   or  right-hand  side  and   'Nii  Kyap to  the  east   or  left-hand  side.      It  runs  along  there.  Okay.      If   you  will   look,   please,   to  page  99.  Wii minoosik  is  W-I-I   M-I-N-O-O-S-I-K for   the  benefit  of   the   reporter.     Where were you now?  39.  Yes.  First   I  would like   to  direct your   attention to three  and four.     They  are matched together  and  can you  identify   the  scene   that   that  depicts?  I'm  sorry,  which  number  again?  Page  39,   photographs  three  and four.  Photograph   three  and four we have  flown  up over   the  divide  between the Thutade Lake   drainage  and  the  Skeena  River   drainage  and we  are looking  down  the  Skeena.     We have come  over  and we are looking  southwest  down  the Skeena.  You've  flown west,   in  effect;   is  that  right,   Mr.  Sterritt?  Yes,   from  Thutade Lake  we have  flown over   and  down  over   the  Skeena.  And  these   shots  are  airborne   shots,   are  they?  Yes,   they  are.  And  the  Skeena   is the  ribbon-like  feature  that  cuts  across  photograph  number  four  in a  diaganol  from  the  right   to  the left;   is  that  right?  Yes.  Mr.   Sterritt,   if  you would please   now go  to  photograph —  sorry,   page  42.  Before you leave  that  on page 39,   what  is the lake  at  the  top of  photograph number   two?    That's  Thutade?  :  Yes,   I  turned around  —  asked the  chopper  pilot  to  turn  around and  I  took  a  photograph   down  Thutade  Creek  to Thutade Lake.  So  that  is  that  there? 7463  N.  In  Sterritt  chief  by  (for   Plaintiffs)  Mr.   Rush  1  THE  WITNESS  2  MR.  RUSH:  3  Q  4  5  6  A  7  Q  8  9  A  10  11  12  Q  13  A  14  MR.  RUSH:  15  16  17  THE  COURT:  18  MR.  RUSH:  19  Q  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  A  28  29  Q  30  A  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  Q  38  39  40  41  A  42  43  MR.  GOLDIE:  44  MR.  RUSH:  45  Q  46  A  47  Yes.  to take a break from  and  show  us where you  Mr.   Sterritt,   do you  just  want  your   seat  in  the witness   stand  took  that  photograph,   please?  Thutade Lake is here.     This was Mount  Forrest —  You are pointing to numbers four  and five  on this  flight  lines map in  the   upper   right-hand  corner?  We got   up to the height  of  land,   the  divide  right  in  this   area,   and  then  I  took a   shot  back  down Thutade  Lake  in  this  direction.  Pointing  from a west  to  easterly direction?  Yes.     Thutade Lake  being  right  along  there.  All   right.     Mr.   Sterritt,   if you will,   please move  to 42.     If  you  just   give me  a moment,   My  Lord,   some  of   these  photographs have  been identified.  Yes,   some  of   them   have.  Mr.   Sterritt,   in the upper   right-hand corner   of  page  42  —   I'm  sorry,   I   don't mean  to   say  upper  right-hand,   I mean  to  say   the  lower   left-hand of  photograph   three.     Apart  from  the  individuals  that  are   shown there  in the  background,   are you  able  to  identify   the  background?     In  other words,   the view  that  is  depicted behind  the people  shown  in the  photograph  number   three?  Well,   as  I   recall   the view  there —  photograph  number   three?  Photograph  number   three   on  page  42?  Yes,   we   are looking  generally   south  and  the — we  are   on Wii .gaak's  territory,   W-I-I £-A-A-K.     And  the  area   there  is  part   of what  is   known as Wii Luu  Steexwit,   that's W-I-I,   capital  L-U-U,   capital  S-T-E-E-X-W-I-T.     And  Foster  Peak,   Foster  Mountain  is  part   of   our  —   is within the  area  known as Wii  Luu Steexwit.  Okay.     On  the  photocopy   it   indicates  on  Foster  Peak  June  23,   1983.     Does   that mean to   say   that   the  people  that are  shown there are  sitting on Foster  Peak?  No,   we are  not  actually  on Foster  Peak,   we are a  little  bit  to  the  east   of   it.  Is  Foster  Peak  shown?  Is  Foster   Peak  in  this  photograph?  It  is  not —  no,   Foster   Peak  itself  isn't.  around Foster  Peak  is.  The  area 7464  N.  In  Sterritt  chief   by  (for   Plaintiffs)  Mr.   Rush  1  THE  COURT:  2  3  THE  WITNESS  4  5  6  7  8  THE  COURT:  9  10  11  12  THE  WITNESS  13  MR.  RUSH:  14  Q  15  16  17  18  19  A  20  Q  21  A  22  23  24  25  26  27  MR.  GOLDIE:  28  THE  WITNESS  29  MR.  RUSH:  30  Q  31  32  A  33  Q  34  35  36  A  37  Q  38  39  A  40  Q  41  42  43  44  45  A  46  47  Where  is Foster   Peak  again?     I  thought  I  saw   it  on  the map,   but  I   can't  find it   now.  :   It  is on the west   side  of   the Skeena  opposite  Chipmunk   Creek.     Now,   Chipmunk  Creek  doesn't appear  on there,   but   that's  the  one   that  I  think you were  familiar with.     You mentioned  it when you were  on  the —  Yes.     Oh,   yes,   I see   it.     It   is marked on Mr.  Macaulay's map.     On  the west   side  of   the  Skeena just  shown here  on Mr.   Macaulay's map as  being the  territory  of Wii .gaak?  :   That's   right.  Mr.   Sterritt,   I wonder   if  you wouldn't mind just  setting   the volume  aside  and  showing,   if you   can,  the  place  where  the  people are  sitting here when you  are   stopped  there.     I  take  it  that  is a  station  stop,   is  it?  Yes,   it  is.  Where  is that  on  the  flight  lines map  660?  Foster  Peak  is  this  area  right in here.     And  there  is a  ridge  just  below   it  and out   slightly  northeast  of   it  and we  are just   northeast  of   that.     The  dot  takes  up the  area,   but  there.     And  that view  is  into  this you  can  take  in  part  of  Foster  Peak,   but  not  all   of   it.     Foster   Peak  is more  to this  side  of   it.  More  to  the  north?  :     Slightly  to the  north,   yeah.  Number   six shows the  place where you were —  where  the  individuals  are   seated;   is  that   right?  Yes.  And when you pointed to this map, Exhibit 660, you  were pointing to Foster Peak just being to the left  of where the six is on this map?  Yes, you can see .the writing Foster Creek.  And that would be to the west of where you —  presumably where the people were seated, is that so?  Yes.  And  the  index  for   Photograph 42-3   indicates  that  the  view is  south  and in  parentheses  Foster  Peak.     And  you  indicated when you were at  the map 660   that  there  is a  portion  of   Foster  Peak  in  this  photograph?  Well,   it would  be  the  immediate —   right along the  edge  of   the  photograph  on  the  right-hand side,  coming up  into  that  area.     We are  on  a  bench  out   in 7465  N.   Sterritt   (for   Plaintiffs)  In   chief  by  Mr.   Rush  1  2  Q  3  4  5  6  7  A  8  Q  9  10  A  11  12  Q  13  A  14  15  16  17  18  Q  19  20  A  21  Q  22  A  23  Q  24  25  A  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  Q  35  A  36  THE  COURT:  37  THE  WITNESS  38  THE  COURT:  39  THE  WITNESS  40  THE  COURT:  41  THE  WITNESS  42  MR.  RUSH:  43  Q  44  45  A  46  Q  47  front  of  Foster   Peak,   to the  east  of.  All   right.     Thank you.     Now,   Mr.   Sterritt,   I  am  directing your   attention  to  page  43.     And  in terms  of  photograph number   one,   page  43,   this is  indicated  in your   index  as  airborne   over  Skeena River   and  the  view  is  east  towards  Fort Mountain?  Yes.  And  on  the  photocopy   it   indicates Xsi Luu Xsi Luu  Skeexwit,   a  boundary;   is   that   correct?  43  Xsi Luu Skakwit  is  a   creek  that  flows east   into  the Skeena  and  so  that  designation would  be wrong.  Sorry,   which  designation?  Well,   if we  are  on  page  43,   photograph number 1,  that   should  be west   and  I  am  not  aware  of   a name  in  there.     Fort  Mountain  is  on  the  east   side   of   the  Skeena  River,   so  that  should  be  corrected on the  index.  All   right.     You  are  saying  the  index  should  be  corrected?  The  index  should  be   corrected.  Yes.  The  photograph  is  right.  The view  that you would  describe as  being  depicted  by  photo  number   1,   what would you  say  that  is?  Well,   if —  I  don't  recall   the  English  name  of  Xsi  Luu Skeexwit,   that's  spelled X-S-I,   L-U-U,   that's a  different word,   another word,   S-K-E-E-X-W-I-T.     I  think  that's  Foster   Creek,   but   I  am  not   sure  about  that.     But  Xsi Luu Skeexwit,   I  am  pretty —   if  I  can  look  at  the map again  I   could  confirm  that,   but   it  would  be looking west   up  Foster  Creek.     So west  (Foster  Creek).     I  can  confirm   that  by   looking at  the map.  Go ahead.  Yes,   that's  Foster   Creek.  And we are  looking west   up Foster  Creek?  :     Yes.  Are we  still   looking  towards  Fort Mountain?  :   No,   strike  Fort  Mountain.  Fort  Mountain  is on  the  east   side?  :   Yes,   it  is.  And Xsi Luu Skeexwit  and  if   that  is Foster  Creek  —  did you  confirm  that  it was  Foster  Creek?  It  is.  Yes,   all   right.     That  flows from  the west  to the  east  down into  the Skeena.     The view here is to  the 7466  N. Sterritt (for Plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Rush  1 west?  2 A Yes,   it is.  3 Q And  in  photograph   number   two,   photograph  number   two  4 the  photocopy  indicates  Xsi  ant Gilek?  5 A Yes.     That's the  next   creek parallel   to Foster  Creek  6 just   south  of   it and  it  flows  east  into  the Skeena.  7 And  the  creek  that  comes   in on the  left you  can  see  8 a mud  bank  there,   that's  Xsi Bagan Huxwitwit,   that's  9 spelled X-S-I,   B-A-G-A-N,   that's two different  words  10 and  then  H-U-U-X-W-I-T-W-I-T.     And  that's  part   of  11 the  territory  of Wiigyet,   W-I-I-G-Y-E-T.  12 Q Okay.     Now,   if you'll   turn  to  page 44,   I will  just  13 ask you  to  look  at  photograph  number   one   on  page  44.  14 A Yes.  15 Q   Now, the photocopy indicates Andap Matxw or Fort  16 Mountain?  17 A Yes.  18 Q Is  that   the meaning  for   Andap Matxw?  19 A Yes.  20 Q   And from your evidence, I take it that is looking to  21 the east from Fort Mountain, is it?  22 A   Yes, it is.  23 Q I'm sorry,   Mr.   Grant   drew my  attention to Andap  24 Matxw.     Andap Matxw,   what  is   the meaning  of Andap  25 Maakxw?  26 A Goathead.  27 Q   So Fort Mountain is not the meaning for Andap Matxw?  28 A No.  29 THE  COURT:     This was  fully  described  in the  evidence,   Mr.   Rush?  30 MR.   RUSH:       Yes,   it  is.     The  only  reason  that   I  am  referring to  31 it,   My  Lord,   is  because  my   friend was  not  able  to  32 make  an admission with   regard to  the  photographs  33 here  two and  three.     I was trying  to  recollect  which  34 of   the  photographs had  been addressed  by Mr.  35 Morrison  and my   recall  was —  my   recollection was  36 that  he addressed' all   of   these.  37 THE  COURT:     I   only   know   about   the  first   one.  38 MR.   RUSH:       Yes.     I   think  he  identified as well   the   second  and  39 the —   just   the  second  I   think  it  is.  40 Q Mr.   Sterritt,   there  has  not  been an admission with  41 regard  to  photograph   number   three  on  page  44.     What  42 is   the view   that's   depicted  there?  43 A That's  a  view west   to  the boundary  area  between  44 Wiigyet  and Wii minoosik.     And  the   creek  —  this  45 should  be   corrected  on  here,   it  says  Xsi   ant  Gilek.  46 It   should  be  Xsi  Gwihl   Djekwit,   that's X-S-I,  47 another   word,   G-W-I-H-L,   another  word, 7467  N.  In  Sterritt  chief  by  (for   Plaintiffs)  Mr.   Rush  1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  17  Q  Q  A  THE   COURT:  THE  WITNESS  MR.    GOLDIE:  D-J-E-K-W-I-T.     So you should strike  on your  photocopy   the word  Xsi   ant Gilek which  is  spelled  X-S-I,   A-N-T,   G-I-L-E-K  and  insert Xsi  Gwihl  Djekwit.     The  photograph  is   correct   of   the  boundary  and  the features.     That was  a  transposition error   or  an  error   of mine in  terms  of  getting  the   right   name.  And  the  boundary   runs  up the  creek  right  to that  mountain  there,   that  is Luu ska Lo'obit.     And  over  the mountain and  in behind and that  is  the boundary  on  the  north  side   or  on  the  right-hand  side  of   that  mountain  is Wiigyet,   on the  south   side   is Wii  minoosik.  All   right.     In  the  index,   Mr.   Sterritt,   you've  described photograph  number 44  as  a view  northwest;  is  that   correct?  Yes.     There  is  nothing on the map to  identify  that  could  be  —  could   I  identify where you  are looking  up there.     It  is  the  next   creek south   of Xsi  ant  Gilek.     So  it  is  two  of   the larger   creeks  south  of  Foster  Creek.  And page  45.     If  you will   just   refer   to  page 45   for  a moment,   please.     Now,   there has  not  been an  admission with   regard to  the  identity   of  photographs  one,   two  and  three  on  page  45.     I wonder   if you  would first  refer   to  page   one  —  excuse me,  photograph  one  on  page  45.     What   does  that  depict?  That's  a view west   up Xsi   ant  Gilek  and Dam An  Matxw  is  the lake in  the middle   of   the  picture   or  almost  in  the middle  of   the  picture.     That's Xsi   ant Gilek  is  X-S-I   A-N-T  G-I-L-E-K.  What  direction  is that  facing?  The view   there   could  be   slightly —  it   could  be  I would have  to  check the  index.  Skeena  running across  the  photo  there?  THE  MR.  WITNESS  RUSH:  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  northwest.  Is that the  : Yes, it is  So for the  River?  : Skeena river  index it should be northwest Skeena  Well, just answer my questions, Mr. Sterritt.  Well ~  The location indicated on page number 45 of photo  number one is the ridge southwest of Fort Mountain;  is that correct?  Yes, it is.  This  I   take  it  is  another   station stop?  It  is  another   station,   yes. 7 46 8  N.  In  Sterritt  chief  by  (for   Plaintiffs)  Mr.   Rush  1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  LO  LI  L2  L3  L4  .5  .6  L7  .8  .9  !0  !1  !2  !3  !4  5  6  !7  :8  9  0  1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  0  1  2  3  4  5  6  7  Q  A  Q  A  Q  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  THE   COURT:  THE  WITNESS  THE   COURT:  THE  WITNESS:  THE   COURT:  THE  WITNESS  This would  be  number   seven?  Yes,   I   think   it  is.  And  then the view  is  toward the northwest   I  think  you  said?  Yes.  And  in the  index  there  is  indicated there Sansixmor  Creek,   have  I  got  the   right  pronunciation?  S-A-N-S-I-X-M-O-R Creek  and  it  indicates   it  is not  visible.     You  have  indicated  the Skeena  is  in  the  foreground of   the valley  shown in photo  one.     Where  is Sansixmor   Creek?  Well,   I  am  not   sure whether   it  flows —   that's on  the map.     I  am  not   sure whether  it  flows  east   of   the  Skeena   or  west   on  the  other   side.     I point   out   that  it  is  not visible   there.     I would have  to  check on  the map.  But  it  is —  It's a  creek  designation that would be  in the area  of   that  on   the map  that   the  direction  of   the  photograph   is taken.  And  the  direction  of  photograph number   two?    What is  your   general   view?  That  is  a  pan more  to  the   south,   panning  to  the  south   and  the Skeena River   is  in  the  bottom  half  of  the  picture.     And  it  is  from  station  number   seven on  the  east   side   of   the Skeena.  Are  one  and two  connected,   Mr.   Sterritt?  They  could  be.     You  can  see   on the  right-hand  side  of   picture  number   two will   fit with   the   same —  there   is  a   ridge  with   almost   like  a  pyramid with  some   snow  on   the   two   slopes   that would  fit  together  and  so  that would pan  to the  left.     Photograph   two  would  fit  on  the left-hand  side   of   photograph  number  one.     And  similarly  photograph  three would fit  on  the left-hand  side   of  photograph  number   two and  so  on  for   photograph  number   four.  Which way   are  number   three  and four  facing,   then?  :     We are  looking  —  we are looking west  and on  photograph  number  four.     We  are looking  then  southwest   down  the Skeena.  Number   three is west?  Pardon?  Number   three  is west?  Number   three  is west  and  number   four   is  southwest  down   the Skeena.  Now,   there are  some features  on there that  should   be   deleted  on   photograph  number   two —  pardon 7469  N.   Sterritt   (for  Plaintiffs)  In   chief   by  Mr.   Rush  1 me,   number   three.     Sagat  in my  subsequent  research  I  2 located  that  there  and  it  should  be in  error.     That  3 should  be   simply  struck.     Sagat  is  S-A-G-A-T.     The  4 same  one  on  number four.     And  then  the  reference  on  5 photograph   number   four   to Xsi Luu Wagooxst,   X-S-I,  6 one word,   L-U-U,   another,   W-A-G-O-O-X-S-T another,  7 that  should  be  struck as well.     Those  are  not  the  8 locations.     The  rest  Xsi  Maxhla Lax Uut,   that's  9 capital  X-S-I,   one  word,   M-A-X-H-L-A another  word,  10 L-A-X,   another word,   U-U-T another  one,   that  is in  11 the  correct   location.  12 MR. RUSH:  13 Q   That is in the photograph —  14 A   Photograph 4.  15 MR. RUSH:   Photograph 4.  16 THE COURT:  All right.  Thank you.  Is this a convenient time to  17 adjourn?  18 MR.   RUSH:       All   right.     Thank  you.  19 THE  COURT:     Thank you.     Mr.   Copithorne,   you  can   come with me.  20 THE  REGISTRAR:     Order   in court,   court will   adjourn  until  10  21 a.m.,   My Lord.  22 (PROCEEDINGS ADJOURNED)  23  24 I hereby certify the foregoing to  25 be a true and accurate transcript  26 of the proceedings herein  27 transcribed to the best of my  28 skill and ability.  30 'f'l^.r     r-^, ■ .' r>^ Ir^  31 LISA FRANKO, OFFICIAL REPORTER  32 UNITED REPORTING SERVICE LTD.  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47

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