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Delgamuukw Trial Transcripts

[Proceedings of the Supreme Court of British Columbia 1988-05-30] British Columbia. Supreme Court May 30, 1988

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 6620  Proceedings  1 Vancouver, B.C.  2 May 30, 198 8  3  4 THE REGISTRAR:  Order in court.  On Delgamuukw versus Her  5 Majesty the Queen at bar.  6 THE COURT:  Mr. Mackenzie.  7 MR. MACKENZIE:  My Lord, there are two matters which Your  8 Lordship requested be dealt with today, I think, prior  9 to the commencement of Mr. Williams' evidence, and I'm  10 rising now to mention those and ask Your Lordship  11 whether Your Lordship wishes to continue with those  12 two matters.  And the first is completing the review  13 of the document binders used in Mr. Muldoe's cross-  14 examination, second is giving preliminary responses on  15 the itinerary contained in Mr. Rush's letter relating  16 to the view.  17 THE COURT:  Well it seems to me that the removal of the missing  18 or the extra pages is a mechanical matter that doesn't  19 have to be -- doesn't have to take up trial time, does  20 it?  21 MR. MACKENZIE:  No, My Lord, I don't think it has to take up  22 trial time, and we are in Your Lordship's hands on  23 that.  24 THE COURT:  Well, I'll leave that to counsel.  25 MR. RUSH:  Well, my only concern about that, My Lord, is that  26 sometimes as it was indicated last Thursday, I think  27 that we -- Your Lordship, my friend and I and the  28 Registrar don't necessarily all have the same  29 understanding about what's an exhibit.  30 THE COURT:  Well then if you find that there is some disagree-  31 ment, sure, those are the matters.  32 MR. RUSH:  We'll bring those matters back to you.  33 THE COURT:  Yes, you are certainly welcome to bring it back.  34 What about the view, Mr. Mackenzie?  35 MR. MACKENZIE:  We have reviewed the itinerary and in our  36 submission, My Lord, an itinerary should be prepared  37 in the form of instructions to the pilot, there should  38 be reference to geographical points.  There is no  39 requirement, in our submission, for subtle advocacy in  40 the description of the itinerary, and all the place  41 names, in our submission, should be in English and  42 identifiable on a map of the area.  Having said that,  43 My Lord, I have some more detailed points on the  44 itinerary, day one and day two.  45 THE COURT:  Well, have you told your friend about them?  46 MR. MACKENZIE:  My Lord, we would be pleased to — Your Lordship  47 requested this response today. 6621  Proceedings  1 THE COURT:  Well, I expected you and your friend to talk about  2 these things.  Don't you talk to each other?  3 MR. MACKENZIE:  I would be pleased to discuss this with Mr.  4 Rush, My Lord —  5 THE COURT:  Well, have you done so?  6 MR. MACKENZIE:  — and get back to Your Lordship.  7 MR. RUSH:  No.  8 MR. MACKENZIE:  No, My Lord.  9 THE COURT:  Well, I don't think I want to talk to either of you  10 until you do.  That is the traditional way in which  11 these matters are resolved, and lawyers are supposed  12 to oil the wheels not to do the opposite.  I just  13 don't understand the difficulty.  I must say I am  14 disturbed that these things would have to be  15 approached this way.  I think you and your friends had  16 better have a talk and see what you can agree on at  17 least, then let me -- let me decide the things you  18 can't agree on without having to worry about the  19 things that you should be able to agree on.  And I  20 just -- I must say, I am disturbed by this that we  21 have all this trouble, we are going to go to all this  22 difficulty and there hasn't been any dialogue.  23 MR. MACKENZIE:  My Lord, we would be pleased to send our  24 response to the counsel --  25 THE COURT:  Don't send him a response, talk to him.  I am going  26 to adjourn until you have a talk about this.  27 THE REGISTRAR:  Order in court.  This court stands adjourned.  28  29 (PROCEEDINGS ADJOURNED AT 10:10 a.m.)  30 (PROCEEDINGS RECONVENED AT 10:35 a.m.)  31  32 THE REGISTRAR:  Order in court.  33 THE COURT:  Mr. Rush.  34 MR. RUSH:  Perhaps I can speak to this.  My learned friend and I  35 have had discussion about his proposal, and apart from  36 the specific points that were made at the beginning,  37 my friend has made a suggestion for an alteration in  38 the itinerary on both days, and he suggests that not  39 by way of a substitution for anything that's on the  40 plaintiffs' proposal, but rather as an addition.  And  41 on that basis, we don't have any disagreement with  42 attempting to work in and agreeing to work in the  43 suggestions that have been raised by my friend.  I  44 think that there are some implications that flow from  45 what he suggests, however, and these -- these will be  46 the fact that there are different logistics involved  47 since we are going to be travelling farther west and 6622  Proceedings  1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  THE  MR.  COURT  RUSH:  THE  MR.  THE  MR.  COURT  RUSH:  COURT  RUSH:  THE  MR.  THE  MR.  THE  MR.  THE  COURT  RUSH:  COURT  RUSH:  COURT  RUSH:  COURT  there will be considerably more time involved in the  actual time that it takes to get from the point of  departure, from our itinerary, to the point of return  that may require further fuel stops and probably a  longer day on the first day.  Yes.  But I think that the proposal that my friend makes  can be worked in and accommodated with the suggested  itinerary the plaintiffs have advanced.  I think that  it is a matter of working out with the pilot just how  we could made the various stops, and to look at what  priorities we can make in the best and most efficient  fuel time.  I should point out here, just by way of a caveat,  something I haven't mentioned before to Your Lordship,  but I'm sure which is obvious, and that is that  weather can be variable in the area and it usually  affects the starting time and it could well be that  there may be some fog at the early part of the morning  and we may not be able to get away at nine.  So I  think Your Lordship should be alive to the problem of  the starting time.  Yes, all right.  In terms of an itinerary to the pilot, I think we can  work that out.  I hope that we can put together a map  for the pilot and for Your Lordship which will contain  English names as well as Gitksan names,  Well, the only one that I'm really not -- I'm not  really that clear on is Bas Choo.  Bas Choo, that is a part -- a peak on the Connelly  Range above Bear Lake, and we'll give Your Lordship an  aerial perspective of the valley.  And that's the  point of the stop there, so Your Lordship can in fact  see much more than what you would see if you were  sitting on the ground.  All right.  And the other one I think we heard in  evidence is Slamgeesh.  Slamgeesh, yes.  It's the Blackwater area and Your  Lordship will fly north, I think it's about 30 miles  off the -- the downward flow of the Skeena River --  All right.  -- as you are proceeding west.  So it would be in a  north-westerly direction.  North of the Gitangasx?  Yes, north-westerly of Gitangasx.  All right.  And what is the suggestion that the  Province has made? 6623  Proceedings  1 MR. RUSH:  The Province is suggesting that after leaving  2 Slamgeesh, that the itinerary fly west to Skuyhil  3 Mountain and further west to the height of land on the  4 western side of the Gitksan territory, and to then fly  5 south along -- I'm sorry, to Bowser Lake, and then to  6 fly south from Bowser Lake along the western boundary  7 of the Gitksan territory.  And we haven't discussed in  8 detail just how far along that boundary it's wished to  9 go, but I didn't have the impression from my friend  10 that he wanted to fly all the way down to Sand Lake.  11 THE COURT:  Yes.  12 MR. RUSH:  But the idea was that we would return to Kisgagas  13 after having flown a distance down that.  We'll have  14 to chart out the exact miles as we go along that  15 boundary as it cuts back on a south-easterly diagonal.  16 THE COURT:  Well, that would be — that would be between  17 Slamgeesh --  18 MR. RUSH:  And Kuldoe.  19 THE COURT:  — and Old Kuldoe?  20 MR. RUSH:  Yes.  We would in fact fly south-easterly along that  21 boundary and then back to Old Kuldoe and then pick up  22 on the itinerary.  23 THE COURT:  All right.  24 MR. RUSH:  And my friends have said that it doesn't look as  25 though it's necessary to spend an hour on the ground  26 in Kispiox, and that may well be so.  We are not  27 committed to an hour at Kispiox, notwithstanding the  28 fact that it's quite a beautiful village.  29 THE COURT:  Well, if it's of any assistance to counsel, I  30 thought that I would drive to Kispiox and up that  31 highway I've heard about -- highway may be a  32 euphemism -- on Sunday evening, or spend some time  33 around there.  So if that's of any assistance in your  34 planning, assume that.  35 MR. RUSH:  All right.  That may well obviate the necessity of  36 spending a longer period of time at Kispiox Village.  37 THE COURT:  Yes, all right.  38 MR. RUSH:  Now in terms of the second day, my friends have  39 proposed a slight alteration in the itinerary which  40 basically takes -- takes us over to Round Lake.  41 THE COURT:  Well, you've got Round Lake as the first stop.  42 MR. RUSH:  Yes.  43 THE COURT:  Or the first destination.  44 MR. RUSH:  But I think that we had seen flying along the Bulkley  45 River to the junction with the Bulkley and the Morice.  4 6 THE COURT:  Yeah.  47 MR. RUSH:  And my friend wanted to fly to Round Lake and over to 6624  Proceedings  1 Broman Lake, if I understand your suggestion, and then  2 to cut down to Goosley Lake which would have the  3 effect -- they would fly to -- east to Topley Landing  4 Road, Holmes Creek, and then to Tatchuk Mountain.  I  5 haven't really charted that through, but I don't see a  6 problem with that.  It would be inserted between the  7 route to the junction of the Morice and the Bulkley  8 River, and the route down to Goosley Lake and the  9 Namox cabin site.  10 THE COURT:  Yes.  11 MR. RUSH:  And that, I think, would probably add something in  12 the order of 15 to 20 minutes in the flying time.  13 THE COURT:  Yes, all right.  Is that the extent of the suggested  14 additions or alterations?  15 MR. RUSH:  It seems to be from my learned friends for the  16 Province, and I don't think my friends for Canada  17 had --  18 MR. FREY:  We have no additions on the itinerary.  19 THE COURT:  Yes, all right.  20 MR. MACKENZIE:  The other point, My Lord, was that it's not  21 intended that the Province have representatives other  22 than one counsel.  2 3 MR. RUSH:  And that —  24 THE COURT:  All right.  25 MR. RUSH:  I was about to come to that, and I thank my friend  26 for raising it, of course.  I do want to address the  27 question of the court reporter.  I addressed Your  28 Lordship on this on Thursday and I make the point  29 again today that I think that this view, in my  30 submission, is not the kind of view where evidence is  31 going to be given.  32 THE COURT:  Yes.  33 MR. RUSH:  This is a view in which Your Lordship's understanding  34 of what you've heard in evidence will be enhanced by  35 seeing what is on the ground.  And in my submission,  36 there is really not a necessity to have a court  37 reporter in these circumstances and I think it would,  38 as I said before, alter the whole context of what the  39 view is to be.  If we were to go to a court  40 reporter -- and I think that counsel -- I agree that  41 counsel should be in the lead helicopter with Your  42 Lordship.  4 3 THE COURT:  Yes.  44 MR. RUSH:  And I think given that, it is not necessary for a  45 court reporter where counsel, I think, have some sense  46 of the purpose and understanding of the context of the  47 view.  My friend used the term "subtle advocacy".  My 6625  Proceedings  1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  THE COURT  MR. RUSH:  THE COURT  MR. RUSH:  THE COURT  MR. RUSH:  Lord, I don't think we are going to be advocating out  on the ground, but I -- on the other hand, I see  nothing problematic with pointing out what you've  heard about in the evidence, and I don't think that  constitutes subtle advocacy or anything of the kind.  And I think Your Lordship is probably not going to be  influenced in the slightest by what you might hear on  the ground in terms of the evidence that's brought  before you.  :  Well if it's still damp, as I'm sure it will be, I  don't think I'll be easily influenced.  I do remember  taking a view with Mr. Justice Hinkson in a railway  case at Tanzilla Crossing.  I remember Mr. Charles  McLean saying to Mr. Justice Hinkson, "Well, it's a  nice piece of country but I sure wouldn't want to have  to drive a railroad through here."  Not very subtle at  that.  We will try to be a little subtler than that, My  Lord.  :  All right.  Anything else on the view?  Oh, just one other final point, My Lord, and that is  that given the fact that we are going to be covering  greater territory, and the fact that there will be  empty seats in that second chopper, we were going to  propose that one or two other chiefs who would have  peculiar knowledge of those areas would be -- would be  in that second helicopter.  It looks as though neither  Canada nor the Province intends to have an instructing  representative present, and given that fact, it's my  proposal that we don't want a helicopter there with  empty seats.  And it's my suggestion that Your  Lordship give consideration to having an additional  plaintiff or -- because of the fact that we are going  to be covering two separate areas, we would be  proposing that there be two additional plaintiffs  present in that second helicopter.  :  Well, let me ask you what is proposed for the second  helicopter if counsel can be accommodated in the first  one along with myself, who would you propose in the  second helicopter, Mr. Rush?  Well in the case of -- in terms of people, we would  propose that one person be Mr. Sterrit and one person  be Mr. Blackwater and -- Mr. David Blackwater.  And  given now the extension of over to the western side of  the territory, we would also propose Mr. Pete Muldoe.  Now, there is a radio link between the two helicopters  and it's our view that there should be in attendance 6626  Proceedings  1 in that helicopter, people who are familiar with the  2 ground, and that seems to be the whole point, in my  3 submission, of the view.  So it's our proposal that  4 those additional people occupy the seats of the second  5 helicopter.  6 THE COURT:  Does the Province or Canada have anything to say  7 about that?  8 MR. RUSH:  They haven't to me.  9 MR. MACKENZIE:  My Lord, we haven't discussed that as yet.  10 THE COURT:  Yes, all right.  I'll leave that open.  My first  11 reaction is that if the defendants don't want any  12 space other than for one counsel, then there is no  13 reason not to fill up the other helicopter with as  14 many plaintiffs as we want.  On the other hand, if  15 Canada wanted or the Province wanted one of those  16 seats each, I think they would be entitled to them, as  17 much as they are going to be contributing to a third  18 of the cost.  But I'll leave that to counsel to work  19 out.  My view is that the seats should not be left  20 empty, I agree with Mr. Rush, and I think each side  21 has a fair -- has a right to a fair share of the  22 capacity that -- any unused capacity should be used --  23 should be filled up.  So I'll leave counsel to talk  24 about that.  All right, thank you.  25 MR. RUSH:  Just one final matter, My Lord.  We have been in  26 touch with Okanagan and have reserved the two  27 helicopters and we have also been in touch with the  28 travel lodge, Hudsons Bay Lodge and reserved space at  29 the Hudsons Bay Lodge for Your Lordship, but we are  30 advised that your office should directly contact --  31 THE COURT:  I think they've done that.  32 MR. RUSH:  I see.  Very well.  33 THE COURT:  All right, thank you.  34 MR. RUSH:  Thank you.  35 MR. FREY:  My Lord, perhaps I could just say on the issue of the  36 court reporter, given that counsel are now going to be  37 in the lead helicopter, I believe there is a lot of  38 ways -- though what Mr. Rush says, counsel are good  39 note-takers, however, I would like to discuss that  40 with Mr. Macaulay on the issue of whether a reporter  41 should be present.  42 THE COURT:  All right.  Mr. Grant.  43 MR. GRANT:  My Lord, I would like to call the next witness to  44 the stand which is Mr. Glen Williams  45 THE REGISTRAR:  Stand and take the Bible in your right hand,  46 please.  47 6627  G. Williams (for Plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Grant  1 GLENFORD WILLIAMS, a witness called  2 on behalf of the Plaintiffs herein,  3 having been duly sworn, testifies as  4 follows:  5  6 THE REGISTRAR:  Would you state your name for the record,  7 please, and spell your last name?  8 THE WITNESS:  Glenford Williams, W-i-1-l-i-a-m-s.  9 THE REGISTRAR:  Thank you.  You may be seated.  10 THE COURT:  Sorry, how did you spell your first name?  11 THE WITNESS:  G-1-e-n-f-o-r-d.  12  13 EXAMINATION IN CHIEF BY MR. GRANT:  14 Q   Mr. Williams, you are a chief in the House of Malii?  15 A   That's right.  16 Q   And what is your chief's name?  17 A  Ax Gwin Desxw.  18 MR. GRANT:  And do you have that?  19 THE TRANSLATOR:  It's 1564.  2 0 THE COURT:  Sorry?  21 THE TRANSLATOR:  1564.  22 MR. GRANT:  2 3 THE COURT:  2 4 MR. GRANT:  2 5 THE COURT:  2 6 MR. GRANT:  2 7 Q And what does that name mean?  28          A  Means "cannot be touched".  2 9 Q   And how long have you held that name?  30 A   For about two years.  31 Q   And you are 32 years of age?  32 A   That's right.  33 Q   And you were born on December 25th, 1955?  34 A   That's right.  35 Q   In Gitwangak?  36 A   In Hazelton.  37 Q   In Hazelton.  And Malii's house is a house -- Malii is  38 a chief of Kitwancool?  39 A   That's right.  40 Q   Your mother is Esther?  41 THE COURT:  I'm sorry, Malii is a Kitwancool house?  42 THE WITNESS:  That's right.  4 3 MR. GRANT:  44 Q   And which clan?  45 A   The Lax Gibuu or wolf.  46 Q   And just to put it in context, your place in the  47 hierarchy of Malii's house when there is a feast at  1564.  And the house is?  Malii, M-a-1-i-i.  Thank you. 662E  G. Williams (for Plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Grant  1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  which Malii sits, where do you sit in relation to  Malii in relation to the feast hall table?  A   I sit about the fourth seat down from Malii.  Q   On which side of him?  A   On the right-hand side.  Q   And who sits between you and Malii?  A   Gallii and Niislaganoos.  MR. GRANT:  Do you have those?  THE TRANSLATOR:  It's 1565 and 1566.  THE COURT:  Thank you.  There is a person of this house called  Chief Malii, is there?  THE WITNESS:  Yeah.  THE COURT:  Yes, thank you.  MR. GRANT:  Q   And who is Chief Malii today?  A   Gordon Johnson.  Q   And Ronnie Johnson is Gallii?  A   That's right.  Q   And Vernon Williams is Niislaganoos?  A   That's right.  Q   And are those both chiefs' names in Malii's house?  A   That's right.  THE COURT:  The second one again, Mr. Grant.  Ronnie Johnson is  the first.  MR. GRANT:  Is Gallii and Vernon Williams is Niislaganoos.  THE COURT:  Thank you.  MR. GRANT:  Q   And before Gordon Johnson became Malii, who was the  previous holder of that name?  A   Douglas Marsden.  Q   And before Douglas Marsden?  A  Amos Williams.  Q   And where have you lived for your life or most of your  life?  A  Most of my life I lived on the reserve in Gitwangak.  Q   And in the course of your evidence, Gitwangak is also  referred to as Kitwanga?  A   That's right.  Q   And it's the same place?  A   That's the same place.  Q   And did you leave Gitwangak during your high school  years to -- for high school?  A   Yes.  I left the community for about 5 years and  attended high school in Surrey for grades 8 to 12.  Q   I'll return to that.  Your mother is Esther Williams?  A   That's right.  Q   And does she hold a name in Malii's house? 6629  G. Williams (for Plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Grant  1 A   She -- yes.  2 Q   What is that name?  3 A   Xsim Haidax.  4 THE TRANSLATOR:  That's 1565 — seven.  5 MR. GRANT:  6 Q   And what does that name mean?  7 A   It means "woman of the Haida".  8 Q   Your father was George Williams?  9 A   That's right.  10 Q   And was he related to Stanley Williams, the present  11 holder of the name Gwis gyen?  12 A   That's right.  13 Q   And how was he related?  14 A   He was Stanley's step-brother.  15 Q   And your -- and your father was of the Gisgaast?  16 A   That's right.  17 Q   Or fireweed clan?  18 A   (WITNESS NODS HEAD IN RESPONSE)  19 Q   And he died on March 21st, 1983?  20 A   That's right.  21 Q   Before you held the name Ax Gwin Desxw, did you have  22 another name?  23 A   Yes.  24 Q   And what was that name?  25 A   Ts' ixs Alalgyax.  26 MR. GRANT:  Do you have that number?  27 THE TRANSLATOR:  1569.  2 8 MR. GRANT:  2 9 Q   And what does that name mean?  30 A   It means "standing behind the chiefs when they are  31 speaking".  32 Q   And when did you receive that name?  33 A   I received that name when my grandmother died, I  34 believe it was around July, '83.  35 Q   Okay.  3 6 THE COURT:  '83?  37 THE WITNESS:  '83, yeah.  38 MR. GRANT:  Just bear with me a moment.  My Lord, I have a  39 document book.  4 0 THE COURT:  Thank you.  41 MR. GRANT:  And I've marked one as an exhibit copy because the  42 photographs -- I only have one copy of the original,  43 and I have another copy for Your Lordship, and I can  44 advise the court and my friends that -- that these  45 documents include documents which have not yet been  46 listed, but the word processing of the listing, I  47 anticipate having a complete list for them by -- 6630  G. Williams (for Plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Grant  1 before the end of today which will include all of  2 these documents as well as others that have been  3 referred to with earlier witnesses that weren't listed  4 yet.  5 And I would ask if the exhibit copy could be put  6 in front of Mr. Williams, please.  7 Q   I would like you to refer to tab 3.  This document has  8 been disclosed to my friends, I believe, and copies  9 have been given to them already.  This document is  10 entitled "The Feast Book Re Maggie Johnson" of July,  11 1983.  Can you just take a quick look at that and  12 ask -- advise me if you recognize that document?  13 A   Yes, I do.  14 Q   And is that title correct, that it is the feast book  15 of Maggie Johnson?  16 A   That's right.  17 Q   And who prepared this feast book at her feast?  18 A   Sylvia Johnson.  19 Q   And how is she related to Malii's house?  20 A   She is the spouse of Ronnie Johnson.  21 MR. GRANT:  And I would ask, My Lord, that that be marked as the  22 next exhibit.  23 THE REGISTRAR:  Be Exhibit 559, tab 3.  24 THE COURT:  559?  25 THE REGISTRAR:  Yes, My Lord.  2 6 THE COURT:  Thank you.  27  28 (EXHIBIT 559 - Tab 3 of Glen Williams' Book of  2 9 Documents)  30  31 MR. GRANT:  32 Q   Now, I just like to ask you to open that and can you  33 explain how you are related to Maggie Johnson?  34 A  Maggie Johnson was my grandmother and she is of the  35 same house as me.  36 Q   When you say your grandmother, do you mean that she  37 was -- would it be correct to say that she was the  38 mother of your mother?  39 A   That's right.  40 Q   And she was the wife of Fred Johnson?  41 A   That's correct.  42 Q   Who holds the name Lelt?  43 A   That's correct.  44 Q   And he has given evidence by way of commission in this  45 court case?  46 A   Yes.  47 Q   I just ask you to refer after the title page, that is 6631  G. Williams (for Plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Grant  1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  MR.  THE  THE  THE  MR.  THE  THE  MR.  MR.  THE  MR.  THE  MR.  THE  THE  MR.  THE  MR.  THE  MR.  where it refers to -- says "Spiral Notebook," and the  first page has "Expense: Re: Maggie Johnson.  Lent me  money (Blanket) July 5, 1983."  Can you just explain  what that is with reference to and what it's called in  Gitksan?  A   The term they use here is Sugwilatxw which means your  wilksiwitxw lent you money, and that's -- and this  page is people who have lent Ronnie Johnson money at  that time.  Q   And can you explain what their relationship is to  Ronnie Johnson, why they would be the ones to  contribute?  A   They are Ronnie's father's side, and they are Ronnie's  wilksiwitxw.  GRANT:  Did you have a spelling -- a number or reference for  both of those words?  There was -- wilksiwitxw I think  is listed, My Lord.  TRANSLATOR:  Wilksiwitxw was 377.  COURT:  377?  TRANSLATOR:  For wilksiwitxw.  GRANT:  Q   And what was the other term that you say that this is  called?  A   Sugwilatxw.  COURT:  Is that what the book is called or just this page of  the book?  WITNESS:  Just this page.  GRANT:  Q   It's -- the actual contributions is called that?  A   Yeah, Sugwilatxw, yes.  GRANT:  Are you —  COURT:  Just a minute, Mr. Grant.  GRANT:  I'm sorry.  TRANSLATOR:  S-u-g-w-i-1-a-t-x-w.  FREY:  Sorry, My Lord, I couldn't hear that.  COURT:  S-u-g space w-i-1-a-t space x-w.  TRANSLATOR:  No space.  No space.  No spaces?  All one word?  Yes.  All right.  Thank you.  GRANT:  COURT:  GRANT:  COURT:  GRANT:  Q   Do you yourself, Mr. Williams, have obligations of  Sugwilatxw?  A   Yes, I do.  Q   And who do you have those obligations to?  A   I have obligations to Fred Good's sons and daughters 6632  G. Williams (for Plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Grant  1 and --  2 THE COURT:  Sorry, you said something before sons and daughters?  3 MR. GRANT:  Fred Good's.  4 THE WITNESS:  Fred Good's sons and daughters, and I can't really  5 remember offhand right now, but there is other people.  6 MR. GRANT:  7 Q   Okay.  Now Fred Good is deceased; is that correct?  8 A   That's right.  9 Q   But he was the former holder of the name Niislaganoos?  10 A   That's right.  11 Q   Which is a chief's name in your house?  12 A   That's right.  13 Q   This page of Exhibit 559 refers to Sugwilatxw for  14 Ronnie Johnson?  15 A   That's correct.  16 Q   Did anybody provide Sugwilatxw for you at the time  17 that you took this name, this first name?  18 A   Yes, they did.  19 Q   Who was -- who provided you with Sugwilatxw?  20 A   Stanley Williams, Nora Campbell.  21 Q   That's Gwis gyen, eh?  22 A   Yeah.  23 Q   Yes.  2 4 MR. PLANT:  Nora Campbell?  25 THE WITNESS:  Nora Campbell, Clarence Johnson, Roger Johnson,  26 Dorothy Brackenberry.  Mainly the ones from Gwis  27 gyen's house.  2 8 MR. GRANT:  29 Q   And this is the house of your father?  30 A   That's right.  31 Q   And do you recall how much Stanley, Gwis gyen, for  32 example, contributed to you?  33 A   Fifty dollars.  34 Q   Do you -- is there a time when you have -- or when you  35 will repay Stanley and those other people for the  36 Sugwilatxw that they gave you?  37 A   There will be other feasts held and -- that I -- that  38 I will repay them then, or between when they lent me  39 and the next feast that we have I will pay them back.  40 Q   So you would pay them at a feast hosted by Malii?  41 A   That's right.  42 Q   Now I just like you to turn to pages -- two more pages  43 over in tab 3.  Well, first of all, it may be -- maybe  44 the next page, it says something, "Wednesday July the  45 6th, 1983," and, "Messengers' Gifts".  Can you just  46 explain what that is?  47 A   This is when you -- when you go out and just before 6633  G. Williams (for Plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Grant  1 you have the funeral feast you go out and to the  2 different villages and you go to the different chiefs'  3 doors and invite them, and at that time what they do  4 is they give you -- give you $2 or a dollar and that's  5 what this one is, this page is about.  6 Q   Now, are those people like Evelyn Johnson, did she  7 give that to the messengers or did they give it to  8 her?  9 A   They gave it to the messengers.  10 Q   I see.  And are they repaid?  11 A   Yes, they are repaid.  12 Q   These people who --  13 A   You'll see a dollar on the other side there.  14 Q   Yes?  15 A   That's what the repayment is, you give the $2 plus  16 another dollar.  17 Q   And that's like an interest?  18 A   That's right.  19 Q   And talking of interest, you said you will repay, for  20 example, Gwis gyen.  Will you just pay him the $50 or  21 do you pay him interest?  22 A   I pay him interest as well.  23 Q   I just like to ask you to turn over the page which --  24 they are not numbered but it's titled at the top  25 "Maggie Johnson - Memorial", and then it has, "Maggie  26 Johnson - Nee-Zeah-Mha - Kitwancool Lax Gibuu - House  27 of Malii."  Do you have that page?  2 8 A   Yes, I do.  29 Q   There is a reference there in the second paragraph --  30 first of all, there is circumstances describing the  31 time of her death and -- is that correct, are those  32 circumstances correct?  33 A   That's right.  34 Q   And how old, approximately, was your grandmother when  35 she died?  36 A   I believe she was in her 80's.  37 Q   And then there is a reference to a brief meeting of  38 house members at Fred Johnson's house.  Were you  39 present at that meeting?  40 A   Yes, I was.  41 Q   And is this the normal practice, to have such a  42 meeting after the death of a chief or of a person in  43 the house?  44 A   Yes, it is.  45 Q   Okay.  And what was the purpose of the meeting and  46 what was decided there?  47 A  Mainly just to plan out how we are going to -- how we 6634  G. Williams (for Plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Grant  1 are going to plan out the -- who is going to buy the  2 casket and who is going to get the clothing, who is  3 going to pick it up, the casket in Smithers, or the  4 funeral home.  Plan out who's going to take the name,  5 plan out when the smoke party will be, plan out when  6 we are going to have the funeral and make some plans  7 for the funeral feast.  8 Q   Now at the bottom of that page there is a reference  9 under the "Pick up Casket" to Bud Williams, Haluus,  10 and then there is a reference -- a note which says:  11  12 "This was a unique case simply to fulfil the  13 wishes of the deceased.  However, Haluus was the  14 rightful person to undertake this task and Leslie  15 Hobenshield is a Lax Gibuu from the House of  16 Malii."  17  18 Can you explain why Haluus was the rightful person to  19 undertake the task?  20 A   Haluus was the wilksiwitxw of my grandmother,  21 that's -- he was the one that's going to be in charge.  22 Q   And in fact, did Haluus -- was he the one that  23 actually did it, did he pick up the casket?  24 A   I can't really remember.  I can't really remember.  25 Q   Now —  26 THE COURT:  Well it says right on that note that — no, it only  27 says they used Leslie Hobenshield's truck, isn't it.  2 8    MR. GRANT:  29 Q   That's right, they used her truck, but it describes  30 how Haluus was the rightful person to do this task.  31 Now I'll -- I'll just refer you two pages over to  32 the page that starts "8.  Blanket at K'san", and then  33 there is a reference to "Pall Bearers at Funeral Home  34 (Smithers)".  And in that list is Buddy Williams and  35 that was Haluus, eh?  36 A   That's correct.  37 Q   And yourself as well as a pallbearer --  38 A   Yes.  39 Q   -- at the funeral home?  And do you recall this  40 occurred at the time of the picking up of the casket?  41 A   That's right.  42 MR. GRANT:  Now, just to — I'll just ask you a couple of  43 examples.  There is a reference to -- on the second  44 page -- or the next page over, I'm sorry, it's number  45 three.  It's the -- My Lord, I'm referring to the  46 second page of the meeting actually, it starts:  47 "3. Wik'esxw - Grave Digging."  If you have the page 6635  G. Williams (for Plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Grant  1  2  3  THE  COURT  4  MR.  GRANT  5  Q  6  7  8  A  9  10  11  12  Q  13  14  A  15  THE  COURT  16  MR.  GRANT  17  THE  COURT  18  MR.  GRANT  19  THE  COURT  20  MR.  GRANT  21  Q  22  A  23  Q  24  A  25  Q  26  27  28  A  29  Q  30  31  32  A  33  Q  34  35  36  37  38  A  39  Q  40  41  A  42  Q  43  44  A  45  Q  46  47  with "Maggie Johnson Memorial", it will be right after  that.  Yes.  What page?  Next page, 7, is it?  Yes, it is page 7.  Why was Ivan Good and Art Mathews Sr. , why were  they the ones selected for the grave digging?  They are from the frogs and the frogs were in charge  of this -- of the -- they are the ones that are  commissioned to undertake certain tasks with respect  to the whole funeral.  And were they -- was that partly because of their  relationship to your grandmother?  That's right.  Well your grandmother was --  She was a wolf.  She was a wolf.  From the House of Malii.  All right.  But her -- her father was a frog?  Yeah.  And her husband, Lelt, Fred Johnson is a frog?  That's right.  Now, have you reviewed the rest of the notes of the  meeting which are the next few pages?  You've had an  opportunity to look at those?  Um-hmm.  And the selection of those people and the tasks that  they were performing was -- is that correct, is that  what actually occurred?  Yes, that's what happened.  Okay.  I would ask you to turn to the page starting  "Hawaal - Family Expense", and at the top of that page  is Gordon Johnson.  Is this a record of what occurred  at the feast or outside of the feast or some  combination of both?  It was a record of the feast itself.  And Gordon Johnson was the first to contribute in the  cash at the feast?  That's right.  And is this because he was the head chief of your  grandmother's house at that time?  That's right.  And then if you go down, the seventh name down, that's  yourself and you contributed $500 in cash and $69 in  goods? 6636  G. Williams (for Plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Grant  1  A  2  Q  3  4  5  A  6  Q  7  A  8  THE  COURT  9  10  THE  WITNE  11  THE  COURT  12  MR.  GRANT  13  Q  14  15  16  A  17  Q  18  19  A  20  Q  21  22  23  A  24  Q  25  26  27  28  A  29  30  Q  31  32  33  A  34  35  Q  36  A  37  38  Q  39  40  A  41  Q  42  43  44  A  45  46  MR.  GRANT  47  THE  TRANS  That's right.  And at this time you -- this was at the time that you  had received your first name at this feast; is that  right?  That's right.  Now, was that first name a chief's name?  No, it wasn't.  :  I'm sorry, you say you already had your first name  or you received it at this funeral feast?  3S:  I received it at this feast here.  :  Okay.  I would just like to -- and I will refer to them by  the amounts.  The third person down, Esther Williams,  that's your mother?  That's right.  Who you've indicated she was a chief at that time in  the house?  Um-hmm.  And then if you go down underneath you -- or above you  is Ronnie Johnson, and he held the name Gallii at the  time?  That's right.  And was a chief in a house even then.  Underneath  is -- two below is Gary Williams, and did he hold  you  a  hold  chief's name in the house at that time, or did he  a name in the house?  Yes, he held it, but I don't think it was a chief  name.  Much further down you have Allan Johnson.  Can you  explain the relationship of Allan Johnson to your  grandmother?  Allan Johnson was adopted at a very early age by my  grandmother and she looked after him.  And what clan and house is he from?  He is from the eagles and he is from the House of  T'ewelasxw.  And that -- is that the same or a different house in  Sakxum Higookxw?  Probably a different house.  I'm not really too sure.  And underneath Allan was Jim Fowler.  And what's his  relationship, or what position does he hold in your  house?  Jim Fowler is from the House of Haits'imsxw, which is  Stoo Wilp of the House of Malii.  :  Just one moment.  Can you give those?  jATOR:  Haits'imsxw is 31 on the plaintiff. 6637  G. Williams (for Plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Grant  1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  THE  MR.  THE  MR.  THE  MR.  COURT:  Sorry?  GRANT:  Thirty-one on the plaintiffs'  TRANSLATOR:  1173.  list is Haits'imsxw.  GRANT  COURT  GRANT  Q  That's Stoo Wilp.  1133?  the third up from  What name did  MR.  THE  MR.  THE  THE  MR.  THE  MR.  THE  11173.  And at the bottom there is  the bottom of that page is Bob Bright  Bob Bright hold at that time?  A   He was Niislaganoos.  Q   And he has since died?  A   That's right.  GRANT:  I would like you to just turn the page over one.  COURT:  Sorry, I didn't get his name.  GRANT:  Oh, Niislaganoos.  TRANSLATOR:  It's 1566.  COURT:  Okay:  GRANT:  Q   It's on the additions that you just received.  Turning the next page of the feast book, the  reference there is to a total of $19,440.  And  assuming that the additions were correct, is that the  amount that was contributed in the feast hall for your  grandmother?  A   That's the amount that's been contributed from mainly  from our house, our house itself, the House of Malii.  Q   Okay.  And was further funds contributed?  A   Yes.  There was further funds on the next page.  Q   Okay.  And I refer you to the next two pages.  COURT:  I'm going to have to take the adjournment now, Mr.  Grant, please, if I may.  GRANT:  Yes.  REGISTRAR:  Order in court.  Court will recess,  (PROCEEDINGS ADJOURNED AT 11:20 a.m.) 663£  G. Williams (for Plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Grant  1  2  3 I hereby certify the foregoing to be  4 a true and accurate transcript of the  5 proceedings herein transcribed to the  6 best of my skill and ability.  7  8  9  10  11  12  13 Toni Kerekes,  14 O.R., R.P.R.  15 United Reporting Service Ltd.  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47 6639  G. Williams (for Plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Grant  1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  (PROCEEDINGS RESUMED PURSUANT TO ADJOURNMENT)  THE  THE  THE  MR.  THE  MR.  MR.  THE  THE  THE  Do you wish to  COURT:  Thank you.  REGISTRAR:  Ready to proceed, my lord.  COURT:  We seem to be missing Mr. Grant.  carry on, Ms. Mandell?  PLANT:  I'd be happy to.  COURT:  Mr. Grant.  GRANT:  My lord, did Mr. Plant offer to take over the direct  for me in my absence?  THE COURT:  Yes, he did.  As a matter of fact, he closed your  case.  GRANT:  Well, we could reschedule the week then, my lord.  Q   I was referring you to the page entitled "Hawaal".  That comes after the page where the total of 19,440 is  referred to.  And can you just explain what is the  difference between the contributions in those next two  pages and the ones you've just been talking about  where the 19,000 was contributed?  A   The 19,000 is mainly our own house group.  The other  two pages are other wolf members from -- other members  from Kitwancool, other members from Gitwangak wolves,  other members from -- wolf members from Hazelton,  Kispiox, Gitanmaax area.  Q   Can you refer to just give an example with maybe a  couple of the names on the first page or the second  page as to what house those people are from?  A   If you look on the first page there is -- there is  Kathleen Mathews.  She is from Gitwangak from  Tenimgyet's house.  She is the mother of Tenimgyet, is that right?  That's correct.  If you go down to Jasper Daniels he's  wolf from Kitwancool from the House of Gwashlam.  MR. GRANT:  Do you have that spelling Gwashlam, my lord?  THE TRANSLATOR:  It's 18 on the plaintiff list.  THE COURT:  18.  Thank you.  Q  A  GRANT  TRANSLATOR  COURT:  18  A  And if you go to the next page there's Steve Robinson  from Hazelton.  He's from the House of Spookw.  TRANSLATOR:  61.  A  And other ones are Gordon Robinson, he's from  Kitwancool.  He's from the House of Wilitsxw.  TRANSLATOR:  That's 80.  COURT:  80.  Thank you.  A   Go down to Wilmer Johnson.  He's from Anlaagyaasim  deex from the Gisgagas area.  And the second to last  one is Peter Alfred, a Wet'suwet'en from Moricetown.  Q   Okay.  Do you have that spelling of that Anlaagyaasim 6640  G. Williams (for Plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Grant  1 deex.  2 A   Near Gisgagas.  3 Q   That is a place that you are referring to?  4 A   That's correct.  5 Q   Anlaagyaasim deex?  And Wilmer Johnson is from the  6 House of Tsabux?  7 A   That's correct.  8 THE TRANSLATOR:  640.  9 THE COURT:  Thank you.  10 MR. GRANT:  And Tsabux, could you give the plaintiffs' number  11 for Tsabux?  12 THE TRANSLATOR:  65.  13 MR. GRANT:  14 Q   And Peter Alfred is now deceased?  15 A   That's correct.  16 Q   But he was the holder of the name Ganoots (phonetic)  17 among the Wet'suwet'en?  18 A   I'm not too sure.  I don't know that.  19 Q   But he was a wolf --  20 A   Yes.  21 Q   -- From the Wet'suwet'en?  22 A   Yes.  23 Q   I ask you, and there's a reference there, there's  24 $2,600 referred to there and then the total there is  25 $24,080, and that is the total of the wolves'  26 contributions of both your own house and the other  27 houses' contributions at your grandmother's funeral  28 feast?  29 A   That's right.  30 MR. GRANT:  And then if you turn to the next page there's a  31 reference to Antim hanak.  And maybe you could give a  32 number for Antim hanak.  The spelling there is  33 different, I think, than on the record.  That is the  34 spelling in the feast book itself.  Number 65 on one  35 of the lists, but I'm not sure.  36 THE TRANSLATOR:  65.  37 THE COURT:  Thank you.  3 8 MR. GRANT:  39 Q   And can you explain the relationship of these people  40 starting with, and I'm not asking individually, of  41 course, but on the list starting with Dora Johnson and  42 going all the way through to Ray Jones.  What is their  43 relationship to your grandmother, or to Malii?  44 A  All these people here are spouses of the House of  45 Malii.  46 Q   And the fourth name down is Liz Williams.  That is  47 your wife? 6641  G. Williams (for Plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Grant  1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  THE  THE  THE  MR.  THE  A   That's right.  Q   And Dora Johnson, the first name, is that the wife of  Malii himself, Gordon Johnson?  A   That's right.  Q   And if you turn to the next page, the haircut, is  there a Gitksan word for this contribution?  A   That's right.  Q   And what is that?  What is the Gitksan for that  contribution?  A   K'otsgesxw.  TRANSLATOR:  That's 64.  COURT:  I'm sorry.  What is 64?  TRANSLATOR:  K'otsgesxw.  GRANT:  Q   K'otsgesxw, and that is the contribution made.  That  is also referred to as haircut?  A   That's right.  COURT:  I'm not sure that I'm relating this to what I see in  front of me.  I've got a page and I think I'm on the  right page called Un-dim?  MR. GRANT:  You're one page ahead.  That was on the Antim hanak,  which we just referred to, my lord.  It started with  Dora Johnson.  And on that page -- the next page  referred to -- the heading of it is haircut.  COURT:  Just a moment.  I have a question I have to note  down.  GRANT:  And the witness had just explained the Antim hanak  page and I'm moving to the next page.  COURT:  Antim hanak, is that N-U-T or N-U-K, are the spouses  of the household?  TRANSLATOR:  N-A-K.  GRANT:  Yes, my lord, the number for that word, for the  record, is number 65.  This is, of course, a  handwritten feast book.  It's phonetically spelled.  The spelling is different than it would be on the  record, but the word as explained by the witness is  the same Antim hanak.  I think it would be N-U-K is  what it would be in the exhibit book itself, or in  Exhibit 555.  THE COURT:  Where do I find word 65?  There was an earlier list,  but I didn't think it ever went below a hundred, did  THE  MR.  THE  THE  MR.  THE  THE  MR.  it?  TRANSLATOR:  COURT:  Oh,  right.  Yes , I've got it.  Thanks.  All  The one --  yes, there is  Thank you.  GRANT:  And the witness explained that Antim hanak was the  contribution of the spouses. 6642  G. Williams (for Plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Grant  1  THE COURT  2  MR. GRANT  3  Q  4  5  A  6  MR. GRANT  7  Q  8  9  A  10  11  Q  12  A  13  14  Q  15  A  16  Q  17  18  19  20  21  A  22  Q  23  A  24  Q  25  26  27  28  A  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  :  Yes, I got that.  I'm turning now to the next page haircut, and you've  described that as -- how is that word again?  K'otsgesxw.  :  That's number 64 on the word list.  What is the relationship of those people to Malii and  to your grandmother who put in haircut at her feast?  Mainly they're the grandchildren of -- that are from  the House of Malii.  Grandchildren and nephews.  Would they be members of other houses themselves?  Yes, they will be.  They will be members of other  houses.  Okay.  And other clans?  That's right.  Turn to the next page.  It is a reference to the  payments made at the feast, and I just want to focus  on a few.  One is Bud Williams pick up the casket  $200.  Would this indicate that this was the person  who actually picked up the casket?  Yes.  And that Bud Williams is Haalus?  Yes.  Now, can you just explain to the court what these --  what this record is, this next series of pages  starting paid at the feast, and when the -- when this  would have occurred?  After the money is all brought in at the feast, this  happens at the funeral feast, when -- after all the  money is -- has been collected, the 24,000, it's up to  us, the main house group, Malii's house group will get  together and we have to pay these people for  performing certain tasks during the funeral.  And  that's what you see on that first page is the casket  2,074.  That has been repaid.  Clothing $124 there.  That was paid back to Hazel Frew.  Plus she was given  money on top for the work she has done.  You'll see  the $200 beside it.  And Sandra Johnson was another  one that helped with the clothing.  She got another  additional $150.  Buddy Williams, he was the one who  picked up the casket.  He got $200.  The people who  dug the grave, Ivan Good and Art Mathews Sr., they  were paid a hundred dollars.  And people that covered  the grave they all got paid.  That's Godfrey Good,  Barney Good, Guy Morgan.  Those people all got $10.  And Buddy Williams was given $200.  And what he does  is he's -- he's been commissioned to erect the fence 6643  G. Williams (for Plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Grant  1 over top of the grave.  2 Q   That would be something he would do after the feast?  3 A  After the feast.  4 Q   Yes.  5 A  And Vern Hobenshield was clearing the area of the  6 grave site, he was paid.  And people that watched  7 the -- the casket at night they were all paid.  And  8 you see Monday Roy Harris $50, Tuesday those people,  9 and if you go up the next page there is still people  10 that watch at night.  They're all paid.  Wednesday,  11 Thursday.  And cleaning up the graveyard, the  12 community hall, the church.  You see the soccer club  13 $50, the Luckies $50, and moving the casket around  14 after memorial $25.  Graham Morgan another $25.  15 Sylvia Johnson was paid for doing these records $50.  16 Q   And that was the records that we're actually looking  17 at, the feast book?  18 A   That's right.  19 Q   M'hm.  20 A  And preacher is a hundred dollars.  And different  21 rents $300.  Village hall a hundred dollars.  22 Q   Going to the bottom of that page, the Indian song of  23 Solomon Marsden.  24 A   He sang our limx oo'y.  25 Q   And where -- where or when did he do that?  26 A   That usually happens just before the official business  27 gets done at the funeral feast, and whatever balance  28 of the monies is left over after all these expenses  29 have been paid and given out to the -- to the guests  30 in the -- at the funeral feast.  The high chiefs get  31 more money.  It goes down the rank.  And it's usually  32 our house group that -- that goes around and gives  33 people money.  34 Q   And there's a reference in the page following, the  35 pallbearers.  And were they paid before the rest of  36 the money was distributed?  Would they be paid  37 separately?  38 A   No, they will be paid out of that pot.  39 Q   Okay.  But would that be before -- you described how  40 after the payments are made then the rest of the money  41 is distributed to the guests.  Would the pallbearers  42 be paid before the distribution of the money to all of  43 the guests?  44 A   Before.  45 Q   Then you go two pages over and it's entitled "Smoke  46 Party for Terry Johnson".  Was this a different feast  47 or a different event than the funeral feast for 6644  G. Williams (for Plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Grant  1  2  A  3  Q  4  5  A  6  Q  7  A  8  Q  9  10  11  12  13  14  A  15  Q  16  A  17  Q  18  19  20  21  22  A  23  24  25  THE COURT  26  A  27  28  MR. GRANT  29  Q  30  A  31  Q  32  A  33  Q  34  A  35  36  37  38  Q  39  40  A  41  42  Q  43  44  A  45  46  47  Maggie?  Yes, it's totally different event.  And Terry Johnson was a person -- a member of your  house?  That's right.  And he lived in Kispiox, and was killed in 1984?  That's right.  Okay.  Now, I just go over -- I won't refer you to  that at this time except to ask you this; would a  similar process take place with respect to a funeral  feast for Terry Johnson as took place for your  grandmother in terms of a feast was held at the time  of his death?  Yes, a similar process happens.  But he was not a high chief in the house?  No, he wasn't.  I ask you to turn to the page at the very top -- it's  five pages from the end, my lord.  It's entitled --  well, it just has a reference to 1,119.25 and there  appears to be payments and a record of payments.  Do  you know what this record was with reference to?  This was a feast that we had.  We have to put up a  feast when the fence is finished.  This is a record of  a feast that we had in Kitwancool.  And if you see --  :  This is a fence for Maggie Johnson?  That's right.  And if you see Bud for the fence there  $500.  That would be Bud Williams?  That's right.  Haalus?  Yeah.  Then Fanny.  Then Fanny washed stone.  We erected a grave stone for  my grandmother as well, and what she does after they  erect the stone is they get a wet cloth and they just  clean it.  And what was Fanny's relation to you?  Is that Fanny  Williams?  That's right, Fanny Williams.  She is from the House  of Haalus.  And she's the mother of Bud Williams, the former  Haalus?  That's right.  And the others who just helped Buddy to  erect the fence like Chester Williams, Billy Morrison  $50, Charlie Morrison.  Those were some of the other  expenses. 6645  G. Williams (for Plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Grant  1 Q   And Billy Morrison is the present name of Haalus?  2 A   That's right.  3 Q   Why was it Haalus who was responsible for raising the  4 fence for the people in his -- and the people of his  5 house?  6 A   Because that's my grandmother's Wilksiwitxw.  7 Q   I just refer you to the last two pages.  Did you make  8 the notations on those last two pages?  One is  9 starting with man and also a page is starting with  10 ladies.  Do you know whose notations those are?  11 A   Those were mine.  12 Q   And what -- where did you -- why did you make those  13 notes, and when did it happen?  14 A   It happened at the time when my grandmother died and I  15 went out on a Tiits to Kitwancool.  Went out inviting  16 different chiefs in Kitwancool.  And we got invited  17 into one house and they fed us there, and while I was  18 sitting there Lotti Robinson was telling some of the  19 different philosophies of our people, and I just made  20 a note of them.  21 Q   And can you describe who Lotti Robinson is, or who she  22 was?  23 A   Lotti Robinson, I guess, was from the House of  24 Gisgaast Guxsan, and the spouse of Gordon Robinson  25 from the House of Wilitsxw.  26 Q   Was she an elder?  27 A   Yes, she was.  28 Q   And she has recently passed away?  29 A   That's right.  30 Q   And are those notations on both pages notations of  31 things that she talked to you about?  32 A   Yes.  33 Q   Can you explain why this contribution of the children  34 is referred to as K'otsgesxw while the translation is  35 as haircut?  What is that reference to haircut for?  36 A  Well, it's mainly publicly showing the feast of --  37 publicly showing where your grandparents are from, and  38 it's usually from your -- your father's side.  39 Q   Was there a time when those persons would actually  40 have cut their hair?  41 A   That's what I've heard, yes.  42 Q   I'd like to just clarify your relationships with other  43 houses.  You've explained actually through this  44 description of this feast and your introduction that  45 you're a member of the House of Malii.  Who is your  46 Wilxsileks?  4 7 A   Gwis gyen. 6646  G. Williams (for Plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Grant  1  Q  2  3  A  4  Q  5  6  A  7  Q  8  9  A  10  Q  11  12  A  13  Q  14  A  15  MR. GRANT  16  THE TRANS  17  MR. GRANT  18  Q  19  20  A  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  Q  30  31  32  A  33  34  Q  35  36  A  37  Q  38  A  39  Q  40  41  A  42  Q  43  A  44  45  46  47  And do you have any rights or privileges to use any of  Gwis gyen's territory?  If I ask him I'll have some rights to it.  And Gwis gyen, that is Stanley Williams that you're  referring to?  M'hm.  Has Gwis gyen been involved in training or teaching  you in any way?  Yes, he has.  Do you have a relationship to Xamlaxyeltxw, Solomon  Marsden's house?  Yes, I do.  And what's that relationship?  They're my Wilxsileks.  :  Do you have a spelling for that?  uATOR:  It's 602.  :  Thank you.  602.  And can you explain what you mean by your Wilxsileks?  Why are they your Wilxsileks?  Their father was Fred Good who was a member of our  house.  And we have blood ties to Solomon, and if he  has a feast I will help him with some of his expenses.  He doesn't have to ask me.  That's my responsibility  just to give them money to help cover some of his  costs.  Our house will -- when he passes on will be  responsible and be in charge of the funeral, buying  the casket, clothing.  We'll be asked to perform those  tasks.  Do you have any rights under the Gitksan law to --  access to Xamlaxyeltxw's territory because of this  relationship?  If I ask him probably -- probably I'll have some  rights to it.  You've referred to your wife, and that's Elizabeth  Williams, is that right?  Yes.  And does she belong to a Gitksan house?  She belongs to the House of Haalus.  And do you have any rights of access to Haalus' house  because she is a member of it?  Yes.  Can you explain that?  Explain why.  Because it's part of their territories.  The fishing  hole that's theirs and she has some rights to it.  And  I have a responsibility to be with her.  And if we use  the fishing hole it's under her direction.  And I also  want to encourage my children to learn it, and try and 6647  G. Williams (for Plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Grant  1 teach them some of the -- what I know in the way of  2 our Gitksan laws.  And before Haalus passed on he  3 asked -- he made sure we had a fishing hole.  4 Q   And your children are members of Haalus' house?  5 A   That's right.  6 Q   Which house is your wife's Wilksiwitxw, or father's  7 side?  8 A   Guxsan.  9 Q   And that's -- that's a fireweed house of Gitsegukla?  10 A   That's right.  11 Q   And which house is your own mother's Wilksiwitxw, or  12 father's side?  13 A   Lelt's house.  Ganada from Gitwangak.  14 Q   Was Lelt involved at all in your training as you were  15 growing up?  16 A   Yes, he was.  17 Q   I'd like to move into that area and ask you about who  18 taught -- who has taught you as you've been growing  19 up, and what kinds of things without giving, of  20 course, all of the detail of everything that was  21 taught, but what kinds of things they were teaching  22 you.  And can you start by talking about Lelt, and  23 what did Lelt -- what types of things did Lelt teach  24 you about and when did that start, how old were you?  25 A   That started at a very early age.  I probably was  26 around four or five, in that area, where we used to  27 hear stories, kind of children's stories, bed time  28 stories.  And we used to help them out within the  29 smokehouse.  Went fishing with them.  We always used  30 to help them.  And they always told us how to help the  31 elders and the people that are in need.  That was at  32 the very early age.  33 Q   Have you been taught about the Ayuks or the crests of  34 Gitksan houses?  35 A   Yes.  3 6 Q   And about the Adaawk?  37 A   Yes.  38 Q   And who taught you those things?  39 A  Mainly my grandfather taught me a lot about it.  And  40 to some extent Stanley Williams.  41 Q   When you refer to your grandfather you're referring to  42 Fred Johnson, Lelt?  43 A   That's right.  44 Q   And where -- there are a number of poles standing in  45 Gitwangak, totem poles, is that right?  46 A   Yes.  47 Q   Where did your grandfather live, or does he live in 6648  G. Williams (for Plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Grant  1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  relation to those poles?  He just lives right opposite the totem poles, just  opposite the road.  Did he teach you about those poles?  Yes.  Possibly you could refer to tab 1 of the document  book, and there are two photographs there, and I'd ask  you if you can recognize those photographs and what  they are of?  Yes, I recognize those.  Are these the poles -- the first photograph, the  horizontal one, is that the pole of or is that a  photograph of the poles at Gitwangak?  That's right.  And your grandfather's house would be just off that  photograph to the left?  Yes.  Yes.  And the second one is a picture of certain of those  poles, is that right?  Yes.  MR. GRANT:  Possibly -- sorry, your lordship.  I did not have an  opportunity to make copies.  THE COURT:  That's all right.  I can make it out from here.  MR. GRANT:  Okay.  THE COURT:  It's a fairly good copy.  MR. GRANT:  Before I proceed maybe I'll ask that these be marked  as the next exhibit.  THE COURT:  All right.  The first picture of the poles at  Gitwangak will be 560.  THE REGISTRAR:  560.  The horizontal one?  MR. GRANT:  Yes.  THE COURT:  Yes.  The next one is 561.  THE REGISTRAR:  And 561.  THE COURT:  And what is 5 61?  THE REGISTRAR:  Three totem poles.  MR. GRANT:  Yes.  That's the photo of three totem poles, my  lord.  THE COURT:  Oh, yes.  (EXHIBIT 560:  Photograph)  (EXHIBIT 561:  Photograph)  MR. GRANT:  Q   Now, I just -- did your grandfather teach you as to  whose poles these were at Gitwangak?  A   Yes, he did. 6649  G. Williams (for Plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Grant  1  Q  2  3  4  A  5  Q  6  A  7  Q  8  9  A  10  Q  11  12  A  13  Q  14  A  15  16  17  Q  18  19  20  A  21  THE COURT  22  A  23  MR. GRANT  24  Q  25  26  A  27  28  Q  29  30  A  31  Q  32  33  A  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  And can you indicate to the court referring to Exhibit  560, the horizontal picture of all of the poles, those  are all of the poles in that location, is that right?  Yes.  That includes all of the poles at that place?  Yes.  Going from the foreground, or from the right-hand  side, can you explain whose poles those are?  The first five there is all the frog poles.  So the first five from the right-hand side are all  frog's?  Yes.  Yes.  And I think the next three are the wolf poles.  That's  Axtii hiikw and Tenimgyet.  That's their poles.  And  the following poles after that is all the eagle poles.  In the background there is a pole which appears to  have a bird at the top of it in the sky long.  Is that  a wolf or eagle pole?  That's an eagle pole.  :  The one at the very end?  Yes.  I would like to just show the second picture which are  three poles.  Which clan do those belong to?  The first two are frog poles.  The third pole is the  pole of Tenimgyet and Axtii hiikw.  Now, did your grandfather tell you about why these  poles had different crests on them?  Yes, he did.  And can you take one of the poles as an example and  just refer to why it has a crest in either photograph?  On Exhibit 560 the third pole over is a story about --  about the frogs and how with the -- and has  connections to Battle Hill.  And that's basically a  story about how the two brothers and their sister went  up the Nass, Nass River, during the oolichan fishery  and they met up with some Haidas there who wanted  to -- to marry their sister.  Their sister tried to  get consent from the two brothers and they disagreed,  but the Haida chief was in love with this girl and she  wanted to -- he wanted to take her -- take her back  home to the Haidas.  And eventually the Haida chief  killed the two brothers and kidnapped the woman and  took her across to the Queen Charlotte Islands.  There  she lived for a few years and wanted -- she wanted to  escape from the Queen Charlotte Island, and she 6650  G. Williams (for Plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Grant  1 planned out how she was going to do that, and her plan  2 with the assistance of an elderly woman in that  3 community was to behead the Haida chief one evening.  4 The canoe was readied, and that's what she did.  And  5 everytime that the woman had a male --  6 Q   Child?  7 A  A male child the Haida chief would kill it.  And that  8 happened twice.  The third time she had a baby again  9 and it was a male and as the male was growing up the  10 mother was scared because eventually the male child  11 will be killed again because -- because what they were  12 afraid of was the revenge that would happen in that  13 community, and the boy would grow up to be very fierce  14 and revenge against that community.  As the boy was  15 growing old the mother was scared, and what she did  16 was to hide that he was a boy.  She took a long strand  17 from her hair and tied the little boy's penis right  18 around the back so he looked like a girl, and that  19 night they fled.  They used the canoe and they fled  20 across to -- fled across towards Prince Rupert, the  21 mouth of the Skeena.  And that pole -- in that  22 particular pole you'll see a canoe there with three  23 heads.  The one is the mother way at the bottom.  The  24 second head is the -- is the chief's head that was  25 beheaded, and the other head is the boy.  And if you  26 look closer on it the tongues are connecting between  27 those two heads.  And what that represents is the  28 mother was escaping, the Haidas were in chase, and she  29 was going across the ocean.  The baby was crying and  30 crying and the mother was paddling, and she used the  31 tongue as a soother, baby soother.  And that's --  32 you'll see those two tongues connecting, and that's  33 the canoe.  As she was getting near the mouth of the  34 Skeena if you see right at the bottom there is --  35 there's a bear there and the bear came right on the  36 canoe.  And they were lost and the bear was there  37 to -- and he sang a song there and told them which way  38 to go.  That was part of the story on it.  They  39 eventually missed the Skeena because of all the mist,  40 the fog along the mouth of the Skeena and they went  41 right up to the Nass River.  They stayed at  42 Kincolthas.  They moved up.  They stayed at the  43 different villages and eventually ended up at New  44 Aiyansh.  And as the boy was growing up they told a  45 history of what had happened to them, and all these  46 other younger boys were making fun of him because he  47 had sucked his father's tongue, his dead father's 6651  G. Williams (for Plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Grant  1 tongue.  And he grew up to be really fierce.  He was  2 very angry and he would start killing people.  Well,  3 eventually they found their way back down to the  4 Village of Gitwangak and that's when he started having  5 wars at that time with the -- the Haisla people.  And  6 they eventually were expecting a retaliation from the  7 Haidas and that's where they began to develop the  8 Battle Hill about five miles from Gitwangak.  And  9 that's where they built this fort, and they had a  10 palisade around it, and they had five houses on top.  11 And they rolled big logs up there and sharpened the  12 branches so it will be -- and as the attack came they  13 just cut off all these -- the rope and let the logs  14 roll down and killed all the Haidas.  And they -- the  15 chief's name -- the boy as he grew up his name was  16 'Neekt, which means tongue licked.  17 MR. GRANT:  Just a moment.  Can you just give a spelling of  18 that.  19 THE TRANSLATOR:  N-E-E-K-T.  2 0 MR. GRANT:  21 Q   Go ahead.  22 A   Then the -- they made another pole, the man crushing  23 pole from that.  And that pole was -- still some  24 pieces of it are still in the community today.  It's  25 all these different -- it's a pole that has all these  26 different Haidas in different locations all flat on  27 that pole.  And that's basically what the story is of  28 that pole.  29 Q   And which house -- first of all you refer to this as a  30 story.  There has been evidence to the court about two  31 types of stories.  One is, I believe, is an Ant'i  32 mahlasxw and the other is Adaawk.  Would you describe  33 either of those stories in either of those ways?  34 A   Yes.  It's Adaawk.  35 Q   Who taught you this Adaawk?  3 6 A  My grandmother.  37 Q   And which house -- whose pole is that?  38 A   That is Wii hlengwax's pole.  Wii hlengwax.  39 MR. GRANT:  Do you have a number for that?  40 THE TRANSLATOR:  76.  41 MR. GRANT:  76 on the plaintiffs' list.  42 Q   And is your grandfather, Lelt, related at all to Wii  43 hlengwax?  44 A   Yes.  45 Q   Can you explain that relationship?  46 A   Both Wii hlengwax and Lelt are the two leading chiefs  47 of the frogs in Gitwangak. 6652  G. Williams (for Plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Grant  1 Q   And does your grandfather, Lelt, still teach you  2 today?  3 A   Yes, he do.  4 Q   He's been very ill over the last month or so.  Except  5 for when he is ill he still teaches you Adaawk and  6 other aspects of Gitksan life?  7 A   That's right.  8 Q   Does he teach you about the laws?  9 A   Yes.  10 Q   And about the crests or the Ayuks?  11 A   Yes.  12 Q   What about -- what about other persons who have taught  13 you?  You've described your father, for example,  14 George Williams.  He was from the House of Gwis gyen.  15 Did he teach you anything relating to the Gitksan?  16 A   Yes.  He taught me some of the things about just  17 growing up and how to live, and how not to sleep in.  18 And we went out fishing along the Skeena, how to try  19 and get lucky when you go hunting.  2 0 Q   Did you hunt with him?  21 A   No, I didn't.  I don't think so.  22 Q   And Stanley Williams, Gwis gyen, was your uncle?  23 A   Yes.  24 Q   And your dad's brother.  Did he teach you any Adaawk  25 or any of the laws of Gitksan?  2 6 A   He would speak about his own Adaawk, about  27 T'amlaxamit.  That story, the Adaawk there, he'd speak  28 about the Adaawk, about the starvation, and how they  29 first acquired their territory in the Gitsegukla area.  30 About the laws.  You know, about the feasts.  Teach me  31 who the different other chiefs are, how to run a  32 feast.  The laws about using the fishing holes, laws  33 about the territory, what I should do, and if I want  34 to go hunting on some of these territory I ask  35 permission, and if I do get something there I have to  36 give part of it to the chief of the house.  All those  37 different laws.  There's lot of them.  38 Q   And what about Gordon Johnson, Malii, has he taught  39 you?  40 A   Yes, he's taught me about our own territory up in --  41 up in our own territory in the Kitwancool territories.  42 He took me up there about four or five times and  43 explained to me where our land is.  We have looked at  44 our own totem poles, the different crests that we  45 have.  A bit about our own Adaawk from the House of  46 Malii.  And, again, knowing the people, the different  47 chiefs he's taught me who they are and what clan 6653  G. Williams (for Plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Grant  1  2  3  4  Q  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  12  A  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  Q  24  25  A  26  Q  27  28  29  A  30  Q  31  A  32  Q  33  34  A  35  Q  36  37  A  38  THE COURT  39  A  40  MR. GRANT  41  Q  42  43  A  44  Q  45  46  A  47  Q  they're from and how to be -- how to react to the  feast, how to sit, how to seat different chiefs.  Those were some of the ones.  Okay.  We'll come back to Malii's territory, but I  just like you to refer for a moment, just so his  lordship has some idea of it, refer to Exhibit 5 here.  And can you just -- just give a general indication to  the court from Exhibit 5 as to where Malii's territory  would be in relation to the Kitwancool or the Gitksan  Wet'suwet'en territory, the subject of the court  action?  It starts about 50 miles from Gitwangak.  There's a  creek right here.  It's Xsu win luu Ts'alda.  Goes  along here, goes up here, goes up the Nangeese up in  here, and it comes along Swan Lake and it borders all  these other chiefs here.  And it goes right beside  Delgamuukw's past the Bony Lake right up to Mount  Madley.  And then there's a line that comes down right  along here, and there's Brown Bear Lake in here.  And  it comes right back down to Derrick Lake.  And the  frogs own the other side of Cranberry.  That's ours  there.  So it's a territory that goes along the side of the  territory that is the subject of this court action?  That's right.  And when you say that there is frogs on the other side  can you refer to which chief or chiefs you're talking  about?  Near the Nass.  It's the Xamlaxyeltxw.  M'hm.  And the others are Delgamuukw to the -- to the east.  Okay.  But that's -- Delgamuukw is within the boundary  claim while you were pointing out in the court action?  Yes.  But it's on the western -- roughly on the western side  of Malii is the Delgamuukw --  Yes.  :  Does your territory include the Nangeese Valley?  Yes.  That is the valley, there's that notch on the map,  Exhibit 5?  Yes.  Have you -- have you travelled on your territory,  Malii's territory?  Yes.  And who have you travelled there with? 6654  G. Williams (for Plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Grant  1 A   I went up there with Gordon.  I went up with Gordon  2 about five times.  I go up there with Ronnie Johnson.  3 We go with Melvin Morgan, some of the members of our  4 house, and sometimes I bring along friends and just go  5 out and go hunting, and just sometimes just go riding  6 and go fishing.  7 Q   You know Solomon Marsden, Xamlaxyeltxw?  8 A   Yes.  9 Q   Has Solomon Marsden been involved in your training or  10 teaching?  11 A   Yes.  To some extent, yes.  12 Q   And what types of things has he assisted in teaching  13 you?  14 A   Some of the laws about feasts, and what needs to be  15 followed when you raise a totem pole, how to act as a  16 chief of your house.  Those are some of them.  17 Q   Can you explain to the court where and in what  18 circumstances this training has taken place?  You've  19 described, for example, when you were young that you  20 were at your grandfather's house.  Does this training  21 still take place today, and in what circumstances if  22 it does?  23 A   Oh, yeah, it's an ongoing thing.  It happens at a  24 feast where I go and visit the different chiefs.  It's  25 kind of a private thing between myself and the chiefs  26 and some of the elders.  I attend -- try to attend a  27 lot of meetings and listen very carefully what they're  28 saying.  And it makes more sense when you understand  29 the language that you can really appreciate what has  30 been said to you.  And it happens just practically  31 everyday.  My Uncle Stanley comes to visit me at least  32 twice a week.  And I go in the community where I live  33 in Gitwangak.  I talk to different elders and  34 different chiefs, and just on social functions they  35 will just tell you what -- what our laws are all  36 about, and how our social system is like, and always  37 referring back to the land and who people are.  And  38 there's a wide range of different training.  It's  39 not -- not isolated to -- to like university or public  40 school.  It happens practically every day.  41 Q   And in which language is most of these discussions  42 taking place with these people?  43 A   In our own language, the Gitksan language.  44 Q   And when did -- what is your first language?  45 A   The Gitxsanimx.  Gitksan language.  46 Q   And since you've taken on this name that you now hold,  47 Ax gwin desxw, has there been a change in the 6655  G. Williams (for Plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Grant  1 training, in the teaching?  2 A   Yeah.  The training has changed to being more  3 specific.  I have to learn how to -- to -- I have to  4 learn how to -- to be more respectable in the  5 community.  I can't go out and do as many things that  6 some of the other younger people do.  I have to be  7 very careful and listen to people, particularly in the  8 feast situation.  It gets more specific in our own  9 system.  10 Q   Are you, and I'll return to this, but just to touch it  11 briefly, are you now responsible yourself for certain  12 functions within the feast when that feast is held by  13 Malii?  14 A   Yes, I am.  15 Q   What kinds of things do you have to ensure are done at  16 the feast?  17 A  We have to make sure we do our planning, make sure  18 that -- that we involve the people in our group, make  19 sure we get out to the different wolf houses, make  20 sure they know what we are going to be doing.  We  21 discuss the business that we are going to cover at the  22 feast and make sure that things are all arranged.  23 Make sure the invitations have gone out, make sure  24 that the food is prepared, make sure that people are  25 seated properly in the feast hall, make sure that  26 the -- that names are given out properly, and make  27 sure you don't miss out anything.  28 Q   Have you -- does part of your training actually occur  29 at the feast that you attend as a guest?  30 A   There is some training that happens there.  Education  31 that happens, you know.  I sit very closely with a lot  32 of the high chiefs.  If I'm -- if I don't know what's  33 happening I'll ask or else they will tell me what's  34 happening.  I monitor what is happening in the feast  35 hall and make sure that I agree with it.  That's what  36 I've been taught.  Make sure if it's not working out  37 that way then I'll question it.  And I'll make sure  38 that I understand it.  And make sure I know how the  39 people are seated in the feast hall, the different  40 chiefs and their ranks.  And just make note of what  41 the business has been that is being discussed by the  42 hosts.  Make sure I know how much money they put out,  43 how much gifts they have, and listen very carefully  44 right at the very end to the different chiefs that  45 come out.  And it's really a formal procedure of how  46 they acknowledge the business and what has happened in  47 the feast.  An order of who rises depending which 6656  G. Williams (for Plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Grant  1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  MR. GRANT  THE COURT  community we're at.  And listen very carefully to them  as to how they -- how they acknowledge and agree with  how the laws are followed for that particular feast,  how the names are given out, we agree with that, and  also begin myself to be one of those speakers some  day.  I'm going to move into a slightly different area.  It may be time to break.  All right.  We'll be back at two o'clock, please.  THE REGISTRAR:  Order in court.  Court will adjourn until two.  (PROCEEDINGS ADJOURNED)  I hereby certify the foregoing to be  a true and accurate transcript of the  proceedings herein to the best of my  skill and ability.  Peri McHale, Official Reporter.  UNITED REPORTING SERVICE LTD. 6657  G. Williams (for Plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Grant  1 (PROCEEDINGS RECONVENED AT 2:00 p.m.)  2  3 THE REGISTRAR:  Order in court.  On Delgamuukw versus Her  4 Majesty the Queen at bar, My Lord.  5 THE COURT:  Mr. Grant.  6 MR. GRANT:  7 Q   My Lord.  8 Just before leaving the area of your training,  9 your Gitksan training, I would like to just ask you a  10 bit about the language, that is the Gitksan language,  11 and maybe you could take a word such as Ayuks or  12 crest -- which I understand means crest.  Does your  13 grandfather refer to Ayuks by any other term and can  14 you explain what he -- what they are?  15 A   There is Aniilitxw, that means the foundation of a --  16 of a house.  It's -- the word itself describes kind of  17 a platform or a stage for that house.  18 THE TRANSLATOR:  It's 1580.  19 THE COURT:  Thank you.  20 THE WITNESS:  The other term is the Gan daxgyet.  21 THE TRANSLATOR:  It's 1577.  22 THE WITNESS:  And that means where the power comes from for that  23 particular house, the source of the power for that  24 house  2 5 MR. GRANT:  26 Q   In your training in Gitksan language, is this usual to  27 have more descriptive terms for these concepts such as  28 crests?  When I say "concepts such as crests", I mean  29 concepts which are important to the Gitksan?  30 A   Yes, there is, yeah.  31 Q   Would you agree that -- or would it be fair to say  32 that the -- there is a value system which the Gitksan  33 have?  34 A   Yes, there is.  35 Q   And have you been trained about that value system?  3 6 A   Yes, I am.  37 Q   Can you explain what you mean -- what you -- how --  38 what that value system is?  39 A   The value system is our social organization, how the  40 chiefs are organized in houses, how they are -- the  41 chiefs are the supreme chiefs in the house, the head  42 chief, then you have subchiefs, then you have all the  43 others that are in the house, that's the social  44 organization, and the same with all the other houses.  45 And there is always in the community there is a higher  46 rank of a house in the community, and one house will  47 be the main spokesman of the community, that's the 665£  G. Williams (for Plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Grant  1 community.  For instance, in Gitwangak they have the  2 eagle which is just a major leading group in that  3 community, and then you have the wolves that are  4 associated with the eagles, then you have the frogs  5 that are of a lower rank than the eagles.  But the  6 eagles are the major spokesman of that community, they  7 are the leading group.  Then you have the Gisgaast  8 that are a little bit lower than the frogs.  Also  9 there is the -- and that description itself depicts  10 the political -- the traditional political system that  11 we have in our society.  12 Also, there is the whole economic system of our --  13 of our traditions where we utilize fishing holes, make  14 sure that we have a lot of salmon that's half smoked,  15 that's fully dried, that's -- and the different  16 products that you get from the salmon.  There is --  17 that's part of the economic system.  And part of the  18 economic system is the hunting that happens on the  19 territory, the use of different resources from the  20 territory for tools, whatever.  21 And there is the whole health care system where  22 we -- there is the using of the different plants and  23 parts of the animals that are used for healing.  Like  24 the devil's club, for instance, is one -- one area  25 that -- oolichan grease is a very -- part of the  26 health care system.  27 And there is things like the marriage system where  28 you -- there is pre-marital laws that come into play,  29 where you can't marry into the same clan.  That's the  30 marrying system.  31 And the education system of how you are trained,  32 the different -- well, what I just described earlier,  33 how the different -- the informal training takes  34 place, and that's the education system that we have.  35 And those are some of the value systems, and --  36 there is the whole legal system itself is all the laws  37 that come into play and how we operate the feast  38 system and how you own the land and the different  39 legal procedures you have to follow for erecting  40 totem-poles, the name giving, and those whole -- the  41 whole legal system comes into play as well.  42 Q   And when you talk about the legal system, is that a  43 system that is uniform for all of the Gitksan?  44 A   Yes, it is.  45 Q   Including the Kitwancool?  46 A   Yes, it is.  47 Q   Just one point I wanted to ask you about.  In your 6659  G. Williams (for Plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Grant  1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  THE  MR.  THE  THE  THE  THE  THE  MR.  THE  THE  MR.  THE  MR.  THE  MR.  THE  THE  description you described this hierarchy in a sense of  the eagles in Gitwangak as an example.  Are the  Gisgaast, is that a clan that is traditionally from  Gitwangak or is that a clan that is from other  villages?  My understanding is that from other villages.  For example, Gwis gyen, Stanley Williams, lives in  Gitwangak?  Yes.  But which village would he -- his clan be from?  Kitsegukla.  Now in talking about that ordering, can you comment on  the ranking of the clans in Kitsegukla, which would be  the -- I think you said the main spokesman or  spokesperson clan in Kitsegukla?  There is two basic clans in the Kitsegukla.  There is  the fireweed, I am sure that Wiigyet is the major  spokesman in that community, there is Guxsan, another  one, there is Gwis gyen, and there is -- there is  Hanamuxw, and the other clan is the frog clan, and  Haak asxw I think is the leading chief of that  community.  Sorry, Haalus?  Haak asxw.  Haal asxw.  That's number -- it's on the plaintiffs'  list I believe.  TRANSLATOR:  Twenty-six.  COURT:  Okay.  WITNESS:  And there is Gwagl'lo, another frog that was in  Kitsegukla.  COURT:  I haven't got that one.  TRANSLATOR:  Seventeen.  GRANT:  Gwagl'lo, 17.  WITNESS:  And that's all I can remember right now.  For  Kitsegukla and Kitwancool it's the wolves that are --  that are the predominant group there with Gwashlam  right at the top, he is the major spokesman for that  community, then you have Malii.  Gwashlam?  Gwashlam is number --  TRANSLATOR:  Eighteen.  GRANT:  And do you have Malii?  TRANSLATOR:  Forty-seven.  GRANT:  Forty-seven.  COURT:  Yes.  WITNESS:  And there is other houses in the wolf that go down  in rank.  I believe there is about six houses in  COURT  A  GRANT  COURT  GRANT 6660  G. Williams (for Plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Grant  1 Kitwancool that are wolf and they just go down in  2 rank.  And there is about seven frog houses in  3 Kitwancool with Xamlaxyeltxw and Sindihl, the major  4 leading house in that group.  But the wolves are the  5 major clan in Kitwancool.  6 MR. GRANT:  Do you have Sindihl?  7 THE TRANSLATOR:  It's 1172.  8 MR. GRANT:  9 Q   And were the persons who you've described as being  10 involved in your training, were they involved in  11 training you about this value system as well?  And  12 when I say the "value system", the systems that you've  13 described, the political and the economic and social  14 and legal systems?  15 A   Yes.  16 Q   And are you still being -- are you still in the  17 process of being trained of them?  18 A   Oh yeah, yeah.  19 Q   Okay.  Now, I just like to ask you now about -- very  20 briefly about your formal schooling.  You mentioned  21 that you left the community of Gitwangak for 5 years  22 to go to boarding school.  Did you go to school in  23 Gitwangak before that?  24 A   Yes, I did.  25 Q   And when did you start formal school?  I say formal, I  2 6 mean the --  27 A   I started, from what I can remember, as grade beginner  28 they called it, and I went to grade seven and the  29 school was called the Gitwangak Indian Day School at  30 that time.  31 Q   And would that have been around 1961 you started  32 school?  33 A   That's correct.  34 Q   And were you allowed to use your own language,  35 Gitxsanimx in the school?  36 A   No, we weren't.  37 Q   Now, what happened?  Can you explain why you left the  38 community to go to higher -- to go on from grade  39 seven?  40 A   It wasn't really my choice, it was mainly my parents  41 that made that decision, I was just subject to their  42 decision.  And there was a programme that the  43 Department of Indian Affairs had at that time that was  44 sending a lot of the kids from grade 8 to 12 to  45 residential schools, and I was on a different  46 programme, they called it the boarding home programme,  47 and I ended up in Surrey for 5 years for grade 8 to 6661  G. Williams (for Plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Grant  1 grade 12.  2 Q   In those 5 years, did you return to Gitwangak in the  3 s umme r ?  4 A   Yes, I returned in the summer and Christmas time.  5 Q   And what about your peers, did they all -- did any of  6 them go to school from grade 8 to 12 in Hazelton or  7 did they all either go to residential school or  8 boarding school as well?  9 A   I think the majority of them went to Edmonton where  10 they had -- where they had a residential school there,  11 and some of them went to Port Alberni, and there was  12 another residential school there as well.  13 Q   In terms of your training as a Gitksan person, as a  14 person who has since acquired a chief's name, did your  15 absence from the community in these 5 years, did it  16 have any impact on that training?  17 A   Yes, it did.  I missed Fred Good which was our well-  18 respected hereditary chief of Kitwancool, and I missed  19 him because I was away, I didn't get to know him as  20 much as I would have liked to have.  And also Fred  21 Good was another -- not Fred Good but Rufus Good was  22 another well-respected elder and very knowledgeable  23 about the land, the histories, the laws, and I missed  24 those two people.  25 Q   Was your -- are you familiar with the book, it's  26 Exhibit 448, entitled The Histories, Territories and  27 Laws of the Kitwancool?  28 A   Yes, I am.  29 Q   And was Fred Good involved in assisting with providing  30 information for that book?  31 A   Yes, he was.  32 Q   What did you do when you returned home in the summer  33 times when you were going to school in Surrey?  34 A   I went fishing with my father, commercial fishing down  35 in Prince Rupert, the initial years, then I had a  36 summer job in the community, then I worked at the  37 sawmill for about two summers.  38 Q   And that was the sawmill located at Gitwangak?  39 A   That's right.  40 Q   And it's the same mill that's now owned by Westar?  41 A   That's right.  42 Q   And what did you do after you finished grade 12?  43 A   I didn't fully graduate from my high school down here  44 so I finished off my high school in Hazelton.  And I  45 went till January and then I graduated there and I got  46 a job, full-time job at the sawmill, and I stayed  47 there till about November of 1977, then I worked for 6662  G. Williams (for Plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Grant  1 the band as a band social worker after that.  2 Q   That was for the Gitwangak band?  3 A   That's right.  4 Q   And how long did you work for --  5 THE COURT:  Sorry, you said that was at Kitwancool?  6 THE WITNESS:  No.  Gitwangak.  7 MR. GRANT:  8 Q   And how long did you work as a band social worker at  9 that time?  10 A   I worked for about two years, I believe.  11 Q   And then what did you do after that?  12 A   I got hurt and then -- I got into an accident and I  13 got hurt and I was off work, and then I went back --  14 well, they called me back to the sawmill to work there  15 and I didn't stay there very long, not even a month.  16 Then I -- my leg wasn't very good at that time, and  17 then the Gitwangak Native Co-op asked me to work for  18 them, so I went to work for them for about a year, I  19 believe.  2 0 Q   And what was the Gitwangak Native Co-op?  21 A   It was an association mainly to try and develop a  22 shopping centre in the community of Gitwangak.  23 Q   And did it develop a shopping centre?  24 A   No, it didn't.  25 Q   And what did you do after -- well, let me just  26 interject on your work history.  What time in this  27 period did you get married?  28 A   I got married in '77, I believe.  2 9 Q   And —  30 MR. PLANT:  Could I just interrupt, I missed one part of the  31 answer.  The shopping centre, was that to be in  32 Gitwangak?  33 THE WITNESS:  That's right.  34 MR. PLANT:  Thank you.  35 MR. GRANT:  36 Q   And you were working as a band social worker at the  37 time you got married?  3 8 A   Yes, I was.  39 Q   And you've already described your wife, she's  40 Elizabeth Morgan?  41 A   That was her maiden name, yes.  42 Q   That was her maiden name.  And she is a member of the  43 House of Haalus?  44 A   That's correct.  45 Q   Was she born into that house or adopted into that  46 house?  47 A   She was adopted into that house. 6663  G. Williams (for Plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Grant  1 Q When was she adopted into Haalus' house?  2 A I believe it was around February, 1981, I think.  3 Q And who was the Haalus at the time she was adopted?  4 A Buddy Williams.  5 Q And you have three children now?  6 A Yes.  7 Q Scott, Crystal and Melissa?  8 A Yeah.  9 Q And are -- your children, have they been adopted into  10 Haluus' house?  11 A Yes, they have.  12 Q And do they have Gitksan names?  13 A Yes, they do.  14 Q Now, firstly, could we start with your wife.  She now  15 has a Gitksan name?  16 A Yes.  17 Q And what is that name?  18 A Haamalik.  19 MR. GRANT:  Do you have a number for that?  20 THE TRANSLATOR:  1570.  21 MR. GRANT:  22 Q And what does that name mean?  23 A I really don't know.  24 Q Okay.  And is it -- well, let me ask you this:  is it  25 a Gitksan word, do you know, or is it a Tsimshian  2 6 word?  27 A I believe it's a Gitksan word, yeah.  28 Q And what about your son Scott, that's your oldest son;  29 is that right?  30 A Yes.  31 Q And does he hold a name?  32 A Yes.  33 Q And what is that name?  34 A Gwa' gayee.  35 THE TRANSLATOR:  It's 1572.  3 6    MR. GRANT:  37 Q And what -- what does that name mean?  38 A It means "little fast one".  39 Q Would that be considered a child's name?  40 A I'm not too sure.  I think it's maybe -- it's -- when  41 I asked Buddy about it, it meant -- it was kind of a  42 little higher ranking name than a child's name.  43 Q How old is Scott?  44 A He is eight.  45 Q Okay.  And you have your middle child, Crystal, that's  46 a daughter.  Does she have a name?  47 A Yes.  Her name is Taxduuts. 6664  G. Williams (for Plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Grant  1 THE TRANSLATOR:  1573.  2 MR. GRANT:  3 Q   And what does that name mean?  4 A   It means "all black".  5 Q   And your youngest daughter, Melissa, does she have a  6 name?  7 A   Noxs Haalus.  8 THE TRANSLATOR:  1574.  9 MR. GRANT:  10 Q   Just for reference, My Lord, the reference in the word  11 list it says Crystal Morgan and Melissa Morgan, that  12 should really be Crystal Williams and Melissa Williams  13 in the English side.  14 Where was your mother-in-law, that is your wife's  15 mother, originally from?  16 A   She was originally from the west coast of Vancouver  17 Island, Ahousaht.  18 Q   So would it be correct to say that your wife was not  19 born as Gitksan but was by birth a Nuchatlaht person?  20 A   I think that would be correct, yes.  21 Q   And who was your wife's father?  22 A   Clifford Morgan.  23 Q   And he is a -- which house?  24 A   Guxsan.  25 Q   And he is a Gitksan?  26 A   Yes.  27 Q   Who raised your wife?  28 A   Her grandmother, Martha Morgan.  29 Q   And did Martha Morgan hold a name in Guxsan's house?  30 A   Yes.  Her name was Mehlasxw.  31 THE TRANSLATOR:  That's 1568.  32 MR. GRANT:  33 Q   And that was -- Martha was Clifford's mother?  34 A   Yes.  35 Q   Was there any reason why Martha Morgan could not have  36 adopted Liz, your wife, into her house under Gitksan  37 law?  38 A   She probably could have, but Liz's mother was  39 originally adopted into the -- to the frogs, so her  40 grandmother encouraged her to -- to stay there amongst  41 the frogs of Gitwangak.  42 Q   Do you know why Haalus decided to adopt her in 1981 or  43 '82, why she was adopted -- Haalus decided to adopt  44 her into their house?  45 A   Haalus was my close relation and there wasn't too many  46 of those Gitwangak frogs around, the real Gitwangak  47 frogs around, so he wanted to make his house a bit 6665  G. Williams (for Plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Grant  1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  stronger, and I was related to him by blood-wise, and  that was probably the reason why he adopted them.  Plus we had children, we had especially girls who  would be future bearers of Gitwangak frogs.  And if  you see one of the names, Noxs Haalus, that means --  they've always talked to us about how the little one,  Melissa, would be the future bearer of chiefs, and  that's what we discussed with him.  And Noxs Haalus, how would you translate that?  "The mother of Haalus".  Okay.  And is there a Gitksan term for the adoption of  your wife and your children into Haalus' house?  What  would you call it in Gitksan?  Tslimdoogit, it means "bringing them in".  THE TRANSLATOR:  That's 1575.  MR. PLANT:  Excuse me?  Q  A  Q  A  MR.  GRANT:  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  A  Q  A  Q  A  1575.  And your wife is present here at court?  Yes, she is.  As is your youngest daughter?  Yes.  Okay.  Now, after you worked at the Co-op, that's  where I left off your work history, where did you go  to work after that?  I can't remember.  Either it was back with -- no, I  went to the tribal council I think.  Yeah, to the  tribal council.  And that's the Gitksan-Carrier -- what was known as  the Gitksan-Carrier Tribal Council you were referring  to?  That's right.  And what did you do -- and what time -- when did you  join -- start working for them?  I believe it was January -- January of 1983.  And can you just describe for the court what your work  entailed with the tribal council?  Basically what my job there was mainly to try and pull  together this map of the whole Gitksan-Wet'suwet'en  territory, and to work closely with Neil Sterrit who  had done a lot of that work, and it was mainly just  trying to help him in doing the piecing together and  talking to -- confirming some of the boundaries and  some of the names with different elders and different  hereditary chiefs.  The other part of that was to -- to document all  the fishing holes from the Upper Skeena, the Upper 6666  G. Williams (for Plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Grant  1 Kispiox, the Bulkley River, right down to Lagat Creek.  2 All of those was helping another staff member,  3 documenting those fishing holes, and that.  We had a  4 series of meetings with -- with the different chiefs  5 and different villages to confirm that the information  6 was correct.  It was mainly assisting in those two  7 processes.  8 THE COURT:  Should I take some different meaning from your  9 description of a fishing hole from what I have been  10 hearing about which have been called fishing sites, or  11 are they the same thing?  12 THE WITNESS:  They are the same thing.  13 THE COURT:  Thank you.  14 MR. GRANT:  15 Q   When you had these meetings with the chiefs about  16 fishing holes or fishing sites, were those meetings  17 conducted in both English and Gitksan or in primarily  18 Gitksan or primarily English?  19 A   Primarily all the meetings took place in Gitksan.  20 Q   And was that part of your function, to be working with  21 the chiefs in their own language in this research?  22 A   That's correct.  23 Q   And was that the same -- what language were the  24 discussions held relating to the territories?  25 A   They are all -- mostly all of them were in Gitksan,  2 6 our own language.  27 Q   Do you recall an initiative of a number of the chiefs  28 which has been referred to, I think, as the Petition  29 of Right, and it was referred to as an application to  30 the Provincial Government for a fiat to sue them for a  31 profit a prendre to the fishery.  Do you remember  32 anything about that while you were working?  33 A   Yes, I do.  34 Q   And were you involved in -- at all in the research  35 that led up to that?  36 A   I helped another staff member with the research and  37 making sure that the fishing sites were all -- all  3 8 documented.  39 Q   Now, when you did research on fishing sites in 1983,  40 were you focusing on fishing sites -- only on fishing  41 sites on reserve or all fishing sites of the Gitksan  42 and Wet'suwet'en?  43 A  All the fishing sites.  44 Q   And I added a context in there.  You did describe that  45 you were referring to Bulkley River fishing sites,  46 were you involved in research with respect to  47 Wet'suwet'en fishing sites or only Gitksan? 6667  G. Williams (for Plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Grant  1 A   Yes, I was involved in the -- in the area of  2 Moricetown Canyon.  3 Q   Okay.  Did you travel in the field with chiefs to  4 determine the location of fishing sites?  5 A   I travelled with one of the staff members.  There may  6 be -- may have been some occasions where we had taken  7 chiefs out but I can't remember specifically.  8 Q   And you did describe that you also did trips relating  9 to -- or I'm sorry, that you did research relating to  10 the territories in preparing the maps of the territory  11 of the Gitksan.  And did you do any field trips  12 relating to that research?  13 A   Yes.  We took -- we went to -- on a chopper for two  14 days with Neil Sterrit, we went up to the eastern  15 boundary right around -- around the Kisgagas area, the  16 most easterly boundary, and we went right up to Bear  17 Lake, up the Sustate River and up the Tutade, Tutade  18 Lake, the headwater of the Skeena, came back down the  19 Skeena and went towards Hazelton, right back down to  20 Hazelton.  We had Robert Jackson, we had David  21 Gunanoot, we had David Green and James Morrison and  22 Neil and myself.  And the next day we went up --  23 straight up the Skeena, documented all the different  24 creeks, the different boundaries, went right up to  25 Blackwater, Blackwater Lake, then we headed up towards  26 the headwater of the Nass River, then we came back  27 down the Nass River and then over to the Gwinageese  2 8 River there.  We went and came down there and then  29 headed right back to Hazelton, up the upper part of  30 the Kispiox River then back to Hazelton.  31 On another trip that I went with -- in a  32 helicopter was with -- on the Kitwancool territory, I  33 went out with Godfrey Good, Barney Good, Gordon  34 Robinson.  We started off in the Kitwancool Village,  35 we headed to approximately eight miles between  36 Gitwangak and Kitwancool, that's the boundary line  37 between Gitwangak and Kitwancool, then we headed west  38 to the headwater of the Stenstram River, then down the  39 Stenstram straight down the Giteen River.  4 0    THE COURT:  Giteen?  41 THE WITNESS:  Giteen River.  And near the — we went across  42 to -- across -- near the Nass River, we went to --  43 around the Kinskuch River.  We looked at -- tried to  44 locate the place called Gits Xsi Duutswit, that's the  45 boundary line between the Nisga'a and the Kitwancool.  46 We then headed straight up the Kinskuch River right up  47 to the lake that's located right at the headwater of 666£  G. Williams (for Plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Grant  1 the Kinskuch.  We went to the headwater of White River  2 and we headed straight to the headwater of Cottonwood  3 Creek.  We went through the glaciers and then to the  4 headwater of the Cottonwood Creek, that's between  5 Bowser Lake and Meziadin, the boundary line between  6 Kitwancool and the other chiefs of the Gitksan.  Then  7 we came down the Bell-Irving, down to the Nass, then  8 we -- at Mount Madley there is a boundary line between  9 the Kispiox-Gitksan and the Kitwancool-Gitksan, and  10 then we headed straight down to Kitwancool.  11 And on other occasions we went on a helicopter  12 flight on the Gitsegukla territories with Neil  13 Sterrit, David Milton, and Ernest Hyzims.  We also  14 went on different field trips to -- with different  15 elders and just using the car up in the Gitsegukla  16 Valley and then up around Kitsumkalum Lake with Arthur  17 Mathews Sr. and I believe George Turner.  Those --  18 those are some of the ones I can remember.  19 MR. GRANT:  20 Q   And just to refer back, the Kitsumkalum Lake, that  21 would have been up to the territory of which chiefs?  22 A   That's the territory of Tenimgyet.  We went around and  23 tried to locate the territory around Sand Lake, around  24 Lava Lake and Sand Lake and then looked up at the  25 Cedar River area.  26 Q   And then the -- you referred to one trip in the  27 Gitsegukla area with Ernest Hyzims and David Milton.  28 Is Ernest Hyzims, is he a high chief who is a  29 plaintiff in this action?  30 A   Yes, he is.  31 Q   And what chief is he?  32 A   Gwagl'lo.  33 MR. GRANT:  What is that number?  34 THE TRANSLATOR:  Seventeen.  35 MR. GRANT:  36 Q   Seventeen.  37 And that trip that you described from Kitwancool,  38 the description that you gave of where you went, does  39 that coincide with any particular boundaries?  In  40 other words, did you follow a boundary in --  41 A   Oh yeah, we followed the Kitwancool boundary, that was  42 the boundary line that we were wanting to have a look  43 at.  44 Q   Okay.  And I just will refer you briefly to Exhibit 5  45 again, and maybe you could just indicate with your  46 hand where you went in -- along the boundary in  47 relation to -- that is the boundary of the Gitksan 6669  G. Williams (for Plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Grant  1 chiefs on that trip, the Kitwancool trip?  2 A   Oh, on the Kitwancool trip?  3 Q   Um-hmm.  4 A   Kitwancool is right down here.  We headed south on the  5 Highway 37 to about eight miles above -- between  6 Gitwangak and Kitwancool.  We headed straight towards  7 the Stenstram, we went along -- there is mountain  8 ranges along here, and then we went down to Stenstram  9 which is one of these creeks here.  We went straight  10 down the Giteen River, and there is a little hill here  11 that is where the boundary line is, and tried to  12 locate the boundary line right at -- what people call  13 Gits Xsi Duutswit, and then went right up the Kinskuch  14 right up to the lake, there is a lake up here, went to  15 the headwater of the White River, which is probably  16 this one.  Then we went over -- over the glaciers and  17 went to Cottonwood Creek.  There is Cottonwood Creek  18 which is the boundary line with the other Gitksan  19 chiefs, and it comes down here and we came down the  20 Bell-Irving, and we came over the Mount Madley, came  21 right along here, right over Brown Bear and then  22 straight down to Kitwancool.  23 Q   And can you, without describing the traverse, can you  24 just describe approximately where you went on that  25 two-day trip?  You went with Bob Jackson -- Robert  2 6 Jackson and David Green and David Gunanoot and James  27 Morrison.  What area did you go to?  28 A  We left Hazelton and we went up the Sustate -- not the  29 Sustate, the Suskwa, Suskwa River, and then we went  30 and stopped at one of the mountains along -- along  31 near the -- it's right -- one of the mountains on the  32 Suskwa.  Then we landed right at -- it's called Mount  33 Horesky.  34 Q   That's this small red-marked territory in Exhibit 5.  35 A  We landed there and then we -- Neil was looking at and  36 talking to the chiefs and documenting some of the  37 land, the names of the mountains, trying to locate the  38 boundary.  Then we went and we then landed up at  39 Driftwood Range which is somewhere in this area.  This  40 is Driftwood Range, and from there we went to Bear  41 Lake, and we camped -- we landed above Bear Lake, and  42 from there we went up the -- up the Sustate -- where  43 is the Sustate?  44 Q   Here, this is up the Sustate River?  45 A   Yeah.  We went up the Sustate River to Mosque Valley  46 and then -- and then up to Tutade Lake, and then from  47 there we came down the Skeena. 6670  G. Williams (for Plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Grant  1  Q  2  A  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  12  Q  13  14  A  15  Q  16  A  17  Q  18  19  A  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  Q  27  28  29  A  30  Q  31  32  MR. PLANT  33  MR. GRANT  34  MR. PLANT  35  MR. GRANT  36  Q  37  38  A  39  Q  40  41  A  42  Q  43  A  44  45  Q  46  47  A  Tutade up here?  We came up here, went across and came down, and we  landed somewhere in the Upper Skeena, and then we went  straight across and right down to the Kisgagas Village  and then back to Hazelton.  On the next day we went -- followed right up the  Skeena River, went right up to the Skeena River and  located the old village of Gitangasx, and went up to  Blackwater Lake and then towards the Nass River to the  headwater, and we came back down, and we came back  down here and then we came right along this boundary.  That being the boundary that you've already described  as between Malii --  Yeah.  -- and the other Gitksan chiefs?  Yeah.  And then we went to -- back to Hazelton.  And where did you go on your trip with Ernest Hyzims,  Gwagl'lo, and David Milton, what area did you cover?  We were mainly trying to cover the Copper River area  around -- I think there is Kitsegukla.  We went up the  Kitsegukla Valley, then we went to Kitsegukla Lake,  and then from Kitsegukla Lake we went down to the  Copper River, and then down the Copper River and to  the boundary line between the Gitwangak chiefs and the  Kitsegukla chiefs, that's around this area here.  And did you go as far as the boundary line with the  southern group?  I gather that is the external  boundary of that territory down below there?  Yeah, right along here.  We went here.  Okay.  And who is on the other side of that boundary,  which -- which group?  What was the question?  Which group is on the other side of that boundary?  What do you mean by "is"?  Well, whose territory is it on the other side of that  boundary?  The Haisla and there is the Wet'suwet'en.  How long did you continue to work -- how long did you  work for the tribal council?  I worked for about nine months.  And what did you do after that?  I went to work for the band, back to the Gitwangak  band again.  And what was your position there when you returned to  work for the band?  I was the planner. 6671  G. Williams (for Plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Grant  1 Q   And why did you -- why did you take that job on?  2 A   I didn't really like commuting 70 miles a day to  3 Hazelton, and the band had asked me if I wanted to  4 work with them, so I went to work with them.  5 Q   Now, in -- and did you continue to work with them  6 until May of 1985, with the band?  7 A   I worked with them until April of 1988.  8 Q   And were you elected chief counsellor of the band at  9 some point?  10 A   I was elected -- first elected in May of 1985 for a  11 period of two years, then I was elected -- re-elected  12 again in May of 1987.  13 Q   Are you still the chief counsellor?  14 A   No, I am not.  15 Q   And when did you stop being the chief counsellor?  16 A   I stopped being the chief counsellor on May 9th, 1988.  17 Q   And did you resign?  18 A   Yes, I did.  19 THE COURT:  When did you become chief counsellor, please?  20 THE WITNESS:  May of 1985.  21 THE COURT:  When you were first elected?  22 THE WITNESS:  Yes.  23 THE COURT:  You were elected to the council and then chief  24 counsellor at the same time?  25 THE WITNESS:  I was just a chief counsellor.  26 THE COURT:  The chief counsellor is elected by the band members,  27 is he?  28 THE WITNESS:  That's correct.  29 THE COURT:  Not by the other members of the council?  30 THE WITNESS:  He is elected by the general membership of the  31 band.  32 THE COURT:  Okay.  33 MR. GRANT:  I would like to return — I will return to what  34 you've done -- what you did in that three-year period  35 when you were chief counsellor, but I would like to  36 move into another area and ask you about Ayuks, about  37 the crests, and ask you to explain to the court the  38 significance of Ayuks or crests to the Gitksan.  39 THE COURT:  Can I have a spelling for Ayuks, please.  We've had  40 it before, but --  41 MR. GRANT:  Yes.  42 THE TRANSLATOR:  It's A-y-u-k-s.  4 3 THE COURT:  Thank you.  4 4 MR. GRANT:  45 Q   Can you explain what the significance of the Ayuks  46 are?  47 A   The Ayuks is a -- is a very important symbol to us as 6672  G. Williams (for Plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Grant  1 Gitksan people.  It was -- Ayuks were attained with  2 the initial taking of the land and they are very well  3 protected.  Nobody just goes up and uses somebody's  4 Ayuks.  There is really strict laws that -- that are  5 associated to those Ayuks, because if you try and take  6 somebody's Ayuks you are going to try and take their  7 land away, and the Ayuks clearly identifies who you  8 are, which house group you belong to.  It clearly  9 defines how much land you have, how much power do you  10 have, and it defines that you have ownership -- you  11 own a particular piece of land, and that you have  12 authority over that piece of land.  And, for instance,  13 like people like Tenimgyet in Gitwangak, they have the  14 bear cubs, that's theirs.  Ours -- our house is the  15 grizzly bear with the two baby bear cubs on the ears.  16 That identifies who I am, and I know who Tenimgyet is  17 because I know what his Ayuks are.  And those Ayuks  18 are demonstrated on their particular totem-poles,  19 that's showing the people that they have the power and  20 the authority, and that clearly identifies who they  21 are and that they have land, they have fishing holes.  22 Q   Is Malii's Ayuks standing anywhere today?  23 A   Yes, it is.  24 Q   And where is that?  25 A   It's in Kitwancool.  26 THE COURT:  That's on a pole, is it?  27 THE WITNESS:  It's on a pole and there is one with a tombstone.  2 8    MR. GRANT:  29 Q   And can you explain how these Ayuks -- I think you  30 have already alluded to it in your evidence, but how  31 these Ayuks are connected or related to the territory  32 of the chief?  If you wish, you can take your own as  33 an example.  34 A   The -- a lot of the Ayuks ties into how house groups  35 have attained land initially, how they found land and  36 how they either killed different animals and that who  37 inhabit that particular piece of land, and they --  38 what they do is they just take it.  And that Ayuks  39 ties right into that -- back to that land, that piece  40 of territory that the house group has, that's what the  41 connection is.  42 If you look at Malii with our grizzly bear and the  43 two baby bear cubs right on the ears, that happened at  44 Gitangwelkxw, that story occurred there, and that  45 tells people that that land belongs to us.  And if you  46 look at Tenimgyet of how they -- the bear captured the  47 woman, that happened where Tenimgyet's territory is 6673  G. Williams (for Plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Grant  1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  THE  THE  THE  THE  MR.  today.  That's how it ties right back into the land.  Q   Can you describe where Gitangwelkxw is in relation to  the map, for example?  A   Gitangwelkxw is approximately 5 miles upstream from  where the Kispiox -- where the Sweet in River flows  into the Kispiox River.  Q   And it's within what's recognized as Malii's territory  today?  A   That's correct.  Q   And is it outside the -- is it out -- inside or  outside the territory claimed in the court action?  It's outside.  The Sweet in River, how is it spelt, please?  Sweet in?  Yes.  S-w-e-e-t i-n?  Yeah  A  COURT:  WITNESS  COURT:  WITNESS  GRANT:  Q  MR.  THE  THE  I would like to ask you about adaawk, and this morning  you described an adaawk about the Meziadin.  Can you  explain to the court what you understand and what you  have been taught that adaawks are and the significance  of an adaawk?  A   The adaawk is history, information pertaining to a  particular house group, and it clearly sets out the  information of how that house group owns land.  It's  how -- it describes how people own the land, how the  house group -- a particular house group owns the land  that they have today, and it's information that is,  that individual house group members must really know  that information.  It talks about the land, it talks  about the crests, it talks about the names, any  fishing stations, fishing holes that are connected to  that house, and how they first attain -- how they  first attain land and the territory that belongs to  that house.  Q   And have you been taught the adaawk of your house?  A   Yes, I have.  Q   By whom?  A   I've heard it from Malii, Gordon Johnson, I've heard  it from my grandfather and my grandmother, and I've  listened to tape recordings of Fred Good, and I've  also read things like the History, Laws and  Territories of Kitwancool, and Barbeau's book of the  upper totem-poles of the Upper Skeena, I believe.  GRANT:  This may be a convenient time to break now.  COURT:  All right.  Thank you.  REGISTRAR:  Order in court.  Court stands adjourned for a 6674  G. Williams (for Plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Grant  1 recess.  2  3  4 (PROCEEDINGS ADJOURNED AT 3:00 p.m.)  5  6  7 I hereby certify the foregoing to be  8 a true and accurate transcript of the  9 proceedings herein transcribed to the  10 best of my skill and ability.  11  12  13  14  15  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  6675  16 Toni Kerekes,  17 O.R., R.P.R.  18 United Reporting Service Ltd.  19 6675  G. Williams (for Plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Grant  1  2  3  THE  COURT  4  MR.  GRANT  5  Q  6  7  8  9  A  10  11  12  13  Q  14  A  15  Q  16  A  17  THE  COURT  18  19  A  20  THE  COURT  21  A  22  MR.  GRANT  23  Q  24  25  A  26  Q  27  28  A  29  THE  COURT  30  31  MR.  GRANT  32  33  34  35  THE  COURT  36  MR.  GRANT  37  38  39  MR.  PLANT  40  41  MR.  GRANT  42  THE  COURT  43  MR.  GRANT  44  Q  45  46  A  47  (PROCEEDINGS RESUMED PURSUANT TO ADJOURNMENT)  :  Mr. Grant.  :  Thank you.  Mr. Williams, I don't -- I'm not going to ask you to  describe the entire Adaawk of Malii, but I just wanted  to ask you if there is any relationship between Malii  and Spookw?  Yes, there is.  Our house, the House of Malii, came  from -- came from the House of Spookw which was in  Gitanmaax, and we still have a relationship with  Spookw today that he's our -- he's our grandfather.  And Spookw is a plaintiff in this action?  That's right.  And he has a territory in the Gitanmaax area?  I believe so, yeah.  :  Are you saying that -- that Spookw is your  biological grandfather or your historical grandfather?  Both.  :  He is your natural grandfather, is he?  Yes.  Just so the court is clear, from your perspective you  refer to Spookw as your grandfather?  Yes.  But he's not the -- he's not the father of either your  mother or your father?  That's correct.  :  Well, I've been given two answers then, Mr. Grant.  They can't both be right.  :  Yes.  I think the witness -- from the witness'  perspective he's his grandfather.  When you refer to  him as his biological grandfather I understood that it  was his mother's or father's father.  :  He said yes.  :  That's why I asked him.  He said he was biological  so that's why I asked him in more detail, because I  don't think he is.  :  It may have been the witness' intention to suggest  he was a biological antecedent.  Rather than us theorizing I'll ask the witness.  All right.  Thank you.  Okay.  Can you just clarify what you mean when you  refer to Spookw as your grandfather?  That's where -- that's where our house stemmed from.  And we still have blood ties.  That's part of our 6676  G. Williams (for Plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Grant  1 blood comes from Spookw.  2 Q   So he is one of -- through your ancestors you are  3 related to him?  4 A   Yes.  5 Q   Can you -- and Spookw is still a house in Gitanmaax  6 and Malii is a house in Kitwancool?  7 A   Yes.  8 Q   Can you explain in summary form what happened, how  9 Malii ended up in Kitwancool?  10 A   There was a dispute in the house of Spookw and they  11 had separated, and Malii left and headed towards  12 the -- towards the Kispiox River and there -- that's  13 where they stayed.  And they stayed at a place called  14 Gitangwalkxw.  That's where they had a village.  And  15 on the other side -- just on the other side of the  16 hill of that location there was the Kitwancool, and on  17 the opposite side, and they had met and they had lived  18 with Gwashlam at -- at a place we know as Gitpaiyskit.  19 It's a village along the grease (phonetic) trail.  And  20 later on Chief Gwashlam invited Malii to come and live  21 in Kitwancool, and that's where we are today.  22 Q   And you referred to your Ayuks or crest, that is a  23 crest of Malii, as a grizzly with two cubs behind his  24 ears.  Is that history of how that Ayuks or crest came  25 about described in the Adaawk?  26 A   Yes.  It is described that occurred at Gitangwalkxw  27 how the bear, the grizzly bear, was trying to cross  28 the river, and he had two baby bear cubs right on his  29 ears -- her ears and as she was trying to swim across  30 the river one of the cubs fell off and drowned and she  31 started crying, and meanwhile two of the house members  32 of Malii were watching and as she came off to the  33 shore they killed her.  They killed the grizzly bear.  34 And that's when they made the song, the lament song  35 and adopted the grizzly bear with the two baby bear  36 cubs as our crest.  37 Q   And do these events of Malii leaving Spookw's house  38 and going to Gitangwalkxw, do they precede the arrival  39 or first contact with the non-Indian or white people  40 in the Gitksan area?  41 A   Yes.  42 Q   And earlier you described an Adaawk of Wii hlengwax  43 relating to Battle Hill, and in that case did that  44 precede the first contact with the white people?  45 A   Yes.  46 Q   Mr. Williams, I'd like to move to another area of  47 evidence and ask you in some more detail about taking 6677  G. Williams (for Plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Grant  1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  THE  MR.  THE  MR.  THE  MR.  THE  MR.  MR.  THE  MR.  on the chief's name Ax gwin desxw.  And can you just  tell us again when it was that you acquired that name?  A   I believe that happened when Bob Bright died.  If I  remember correctly it was around April of 1986.  Q   I'd ask you just to flip over the exhibit book, or  your document book to tab 4 and look at the feast book  that's referred to there, and it just refers to a  memorial for Robert Bright for April 10th, 1986, feast  April 15th, 1986.  Do you recognize that book?  A   Yes, I do.  COURT:  Where do you see that, Mr. Grant?  GRANT:  That's on the inside there is a typed page and the  inside cover, the photocopied cover.  COURT:  Of tab 4?  GRANT:  Tab 4, the feast book of —  COURT:  I'm sorry.  GRANT:  Re Robert Bright.  COURT:  Yes.  I'm sorry.  I'm looking at the wrong document.  Thank you.  GRANT:  Q   And have you reviewed this feast book and looked at it  before today?  A   Yes, I have.  Q   And who prepared this document?  A   Sylvia Johnson.  Q   And was this -- was that again part of her role as the  wife of Gallii, Ronnie Johnson?  A   Yes.  Q   And does it accurately reflect the payments made in at  the feast, and the payments out?  A   Yes, it does.  GRANT:  I'd ask that that be marked as the next exhibit.  REGISTRAR:  562, tab 4.  GRANT:  Q  A  Q  A  (EXHIBIT 562:  Feast Book re R. Bright)  Now, I'm not going to ask you to go through this  document in the detail that you did with your  grandmother's feast book, but can you explain to the  court the circumstances surrounding you taking on the  name Ax gwin desxw, and who held the name before you,  and what happened?  The name was originally held by Roddy Good.  He held  the name ever since Rufus Good died.  Approximately when was that, or can you recall?  I can't remember right offhand. 667E  G. Williams (for Plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Grant  1 Q   M'hm.  2 A   But he had this name that I have now.  That was a high  3 ranking name.  And we had feasts since he took the  4 name that -- and then he never -- he would never show  5 up for our feasts, or when he did he contributed very  6 little money for that particular name.  And the other  7 chiefs from Kitwancool were disappointed that -- that  8 the name was being abused.  It wasn't being heard.  9 When it was heard it was very little money that was  10 associated to it.  And they had a number of  11 discussions with -- with my -- the chief of our house  12 and other members of our house, and also the frogs  13 from Kitwancool were disappointed as well.  They  14 expressed their views to Malii.  And when Robert  15 Bright died we had a meeting.  16 Q   When you say we had a meeting who are you referring  17 to?  18 A   The wolves in our house and other wolves from  19 Kitwancool came.  We had a meeting and we had to plan  2 0 out how we -- how we would carry out the funeral and  21 getting ready for the feast.  We planned out to give  22 out names to different people in our house.  And this  23 name that I have was discussed extensively at this  24 meeting and I was asked to take it.  And I was  25 reluctant to accept it at first, but I was -- I was  26 convinced that I should take it.  And I did accept it.  27 And they were quite concerned about the lack of  28 presence of Roddy Good, and the abuse that was  29 happening to the name.  And it was a bit embarrassing  30 not just to our house, but to the wolves and to the  31 frogs of Kitwancool it was a bit embarrassing that  32 such a high ranking name that it wasn't -- he wasn't  33 visible enough and he didn't participate in it.  So at  34 that settlement feast for Robert Good I took the name.  35 Q   Robert Bright?  36 A   Robert Bright.  And what they did to Roddy Good was --  37 the terminology that the chiefs used and its meaning  38 is blowing them out of the feast hall.  And they have  39 an Indian word for that, Suuwiis'wen.  40 MR. GRANT:  Do you have a number for that?  41 THE TRANSLATOR:  1579.  42 A  And what it means is blowing them out of the feast  43 hall.  4 4    MR. GRANT:  45 Q   You've referred to both wolf chiefs and frog chiefs  46 who discussed this with Malii.  Who were some of those  47 people that would have been involved in discussions 6679  G. Williams (for Plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Grant  1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  THE  MR.  THE  MR.  THE  MR.  THE  MR.  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  before this feast about -- both for the feast and even  before the meeting about their concerns about your  name?  The head chief of the wolves, Gwashlam.  Is that Abel Campbell?  Yes.  Yes.  And Gordon Robinson, and Jim Fowler, Ronnie Johnson.  That's Gallii?  Yeah.  My mother.  And those were some of the wolves.  The frogs were Solomon Marsden, Godfrey Good.  That's Xamlaxyeltxw?  Yes.  Godfrey Good is Gunuu?  That's right.  Bob Good who's Sindihl?  Those are the ones I could remember right offhand.  Is this concept of Suuwiis'wen, is that recognized  within the Gitksan legal system that the chief can do  this?  Yes.  And that did happen.  That was explained at that  feast, and properly explained to everybody at that  particular feast what was happening.  And I took the  name.  They christened me.  And after that feast the  first order of chiefs to respond was the -- was the  Kitwancool frogs and they fully agreed with it.  And  the other chiefs agreed -- agreed with it as well from  the other villages.  And you're familiar with the concept of 'Niidil?  That's right.  And who was the 'Niidil from your house, from your  House of Malii?  The Kitwancool frogs.  And would that be Xamlatyeltxw?  Yes.  Is that 19, Chris Skulsh?  Oh, the 'Niidil?  Yes.  No, it's —  TRANSLATOR:  353.  GRANT:  353 is the term 'Niidil, but what is Xamlatyeltxw,  what number is that?  TRANSLATOR:  85.  GRANT:  Q   And can you explain for me what you mean by 'Niidil?  A   'Niidil is referring to the tongue, and what it means  is the other official spokesman of the community.  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  COURT  GRANT  COURT  GRANT 6680  G. Williams (for Plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Grant  1  Q  2  A  3  Q  4  A  5  THE COURT  6  A  7  MR. GRANT  8  Q  9  10  A  11  12  13  14  Q  15  16  A  17  Q  18  19  20  21  22  A  23  Q  24  25  26  A  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  So it would be like the opposite side --  That's right.  -- Of the wolves in Kitwancool?  That's right.  :  Other official spokesman for who?  The community.  Now, did Gwis gyen, Stanley Williams, do anything to  assist you at the time you took on this name?  Yes, he did.  He gave me I believe it was $50.  And  other members from his house gave me money for just to  help me, because I'm their -- I'm closely related to  them.  And did they call out your name at this feast to  recognize it?  Yes, the ones that christened me.  When you were approached about taking on this name,  which you've explained is a chief's name in the House  of Malii, did you have any thoughts about the impact  or the effect on you and on your life of taking on a  chief's name?  Yes, I did.  Can you explain to the court what  have been -- effects have been on  of you taking a chief's name on?  Well, the first one is I -- I have to do my -- my own  planning.  I have to make sure that I always have  money just in case I have to contribute to feasts.  It's not just a few dollars, it's usually a thousand  dollars depending on the rank of the chief that passes  on to my house.  And if there's other feasts that  happen with the wolves I can't just contribute $20,  it's got to be a little bit more than $20 to show my  rank.  I also have to not -- I have to be careful how  I appear in the community.  I cannot be seen as  drinking and be drunk on the street, or partying all  the time.  I have to be a bit more careful.  I have to  try and attend as many feasts as I can.  And I have to  be conscious of how I am seated in the feast.  I also  have to be responsible for making sure that a lot of  planning takes place if -- if we're gonna have a feast  for our particular house.  Ensure that things are well  thought out and well planned and be responsible for  for some of our -- my nephews and my nieces and my  brothers and my cousins in our house, make sure that  they have names.  And we also have to think about the  land itself, the land that we have seeing who's --  -- what the effects  you and your family 6681  G. Williams (for Plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Grant  1 who's using it, who's logging on there, planning out  2 some things that we want to do on the land.  Those are  3 some of the responsibilities that I have inherited.  4 I've also been appointed the spokesman for our house  5 that -- that I speak for them and after consulting  6 with members in my house and my chief and other chiefs  7 in our house to make sure that I'm saying the right  8 thing.  9 Q   I'd just like to refer you before going back to a  10 third document in the document book, and that is tab  11 5.  It's the feast book of re Terry Johnson.  And  12 Terry Johnson was a member of your house?  13 A   That's right.  14 Q   And he lived in Kispiox?  15 A   That's right.  16 Q   And he was killed in a car accident in February of  17 1984?  18 A   That's right.  19 Q   And have you reviewed this next document, this feast  20 book?  21 A   Yes, I have.  22 Q   And does it reflect the expenditures and the payments  23 in at that feast?  24 A   Yes, it does.  25 Q   And the first two pages right after the cover page  26 refers to names in Kitwancool and appendix.  These  27 were loose pages in the feast book that were separate  28 from it, is that right?  29 A   Yes.  30 Q   And did you get -- where did you get those lists from?  31 A   This first page was -- was Fred Good's own typing, and  32 he wanted us to make sure that we -- we knew these  33 names and that these were the names of the House of  34 Malii.  And he passed it on to Gordon and then Gordon  35 all gave us a copy.  And that was mainly from Fred  36 Good.  The next page is from the History, Laws and  37 Territories of Kitwancool publication that was made.  38 And those are some of my own hand notes to it, who has  39 those names, and right beside it like Gordon Johnson,  40 Malii, Bob Bright, and so on down the line.  41 Q   And that third name, Ax gwin desxw, has Roddy Good  42 beside it.  That is the name you now hold, is that  43 right?  44 A   That's right.  45 Q   And it refers at the top list of names of the House of  46 Chief Niislaganoos is the same as the House of Malii,  47 is that right? 6682  G. Williams (for Plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Grant  1 A   That's right.  2 MR. GRANT:  I would ask that this document be marked as the next  3 exhibit, my lord.  4 THE REGISTRAR:  563, tab 5.  5  6 (EXHIBIT 563:  Feast Book of Terry Johnson)  7  8 MR. GRANT:  9 Q   Now, you have explained in your grandmother's funeral  10 feast the amount of money that was paid in, $24,000.  11 You've agreed with Robert Bright's feast book which  12 says $14,000 has been paid in, and you described as  13 part of your own obligations now that you're a chief  14 it's not just a question of putting in $20, but you  15 have to be prepared to put in a thousand dollars I  16 gather on short notice if a chief dies.  Can you  17 explain to the court, Mr. Williams, why today it is  18 important for chiefs to put in so much money in the  19 feast hall, and why do they do it?  20 A   It's -- it really boils down to the rank of the  21 individual.  There's variations of how much money you  22 put in -- put in at the feast.  For instance, Malii  23 will, and the other two chiefs before me always put  24 more money than me.  And that's higher rank.  And I  25 respect that that's the way we have been taught.  You  26 cannot contribute more money than them because it just  27 doesn't look right.  And that's the way we've been  2 8 taught.  And -- and to put huge amounts of money in  29 the feast is demonstrating to the guests and the other  30 houses that are the host at that feast is  31 demonstrating publicly to the people in that -- in  32 that feast hall that you do own land, that you own  33 territory, that you own fishing holes, that you own  34 names in those houses, and this is who we are.  And  35 that also interprets your wealth and the stature you  36 have in the community, in the feast hall, and that  37 stature represents the power and the authority that  3 8 you have.  39 Q   Does your house have any plans to raise a pole?  4 0 A   Yes, we do.  41 Q   And why is it that your house is planning to raise a  42 pole, and what are the intentions regarding it?  43 A  Well, our chief, it's part of his duties as being the  44 chief, one of his duties before he passes on to -- to  45 erect a totem pole.  And because he's always thinking  46 about us, other members in our house, that he wants to  47 ensure that -- that we still own this land, that we 6683  G. Williams (for Plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Grant  1 still have the authority and the jurisdiction over  2 that land, and over the names, over the fishing holes,  3 and he wants to publicly demonstrate that in the feast  4 hall that this is who we are, this is the land that we  5 own, this is the crest that we have, this is the names  6 we have, this is how wealthy we are, this is the  7 stature we have, and this is the power we have, and we  8 own it and nobody is ever going to dispute that.  9 Q   Have you been present at pole raisings given by other  10 chiefs?  11 A   Yes, I have.  12 Q   Have you participated in pole raisings of any other  13 chiefs of other houses?  14 A   Yes, I have.  15 Q   Can you give an example of whose chief's pole raising  16 you participated?  17 A   I participated in Solomon Marsden erecting a totem  18 pole.  I participated with Godfrey Good with raising a  19 totem pole.  2 0 Q   That's Gunuu?  21 A   Gunuu, that's right.  And to some extent with Guxsan,  22 Herbert Wesley.  And also with the late Magnus Turner.  23 Q   And what was your role in participating with Solomon  24 Marsden and their pole raisings in those raisings?  25 A   Solomon is, from what I explained earlier, that it's  26 our house's responsibility that anything that he does  27 that he gets his Wilksiwitxw to perform certain tasks  28 for him.  And that's just the way the law works is  29 that it's us, the House of Malii, that performs all  30 those different tasks like setting out the foundation  31 for the totem pole, making sure that the -- that  32 the -- the totem pole raising goes well.  Make sure --  33 making sure that the pole goes up well.  And the same  34 thing with Godfrey, it was mainly my brother that  35 performed those tasks and we just simply helped him.  36 In respect to Magnus Turner and Herbert Wesley I was  37 just witnessing what they were doing.  38 Q   I'd like to refer you to tab 6 of your -- of the  39 document book.  And this is from a notebook of  40 yourself relating to a feast of Buddy William's house.  41 You can take that out if you wish.  Now, these are  42 your notes of that feast?  43 A   That's right.  44 Q   And the form of the book was actually a date book, but  45 the actual date of the event was February 26, 1983?  46 A   That's right.  47 Q   And did you take notes of, for example, on the second 6684  G. Williams (for Plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Grant  1  2  3  4  A  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  12  Q  13  14  A  15  Q  16  17  A  18  Q  19  20  21  A  22  23  24  25  Q  26  THE  COURT  27  28  A  29  THE  COURT  30  MR.  GRANT  31  A  32  THE  COURT  33  MR.  GRANT  34  Q  35  MR.  PLANT  36  37  THE  COURT  38  MR.  GRANT  39  Q  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  A  47  Q  column of the first page is a reference to Solomon  Marsden.  Are the notes under there the notes of what  he said there at that feast?  Yes.  After the -- all the business was done the  people ate, and the official business was done at that  feast.  There's a procedure of how the chiefs get up  and make sure -- make statements that says that yes,  Haalus, you followed the laws of our grandfathers.  You performed the feast right.  Your business was done  right according to our law.  Yes, we acknowledge it  and we agree with what you've done.  Okay.  Your notations here are in English.  Did  Solomon speak in English or Gitxsanimx at the feast?  He spoke in our language.  But your translations -- you translated to yourself  what he said?  Yes.  Was there any particular reason why you took notes at  this feast?  Was there any particular event that was  important for your family?  I think it was the time my wife and son got names.  And I just like taking notes just to look back on what  the different chiefs have said, how much money has  been raised, and how much individuals contribute.  Well, I refer you to --  :  What does it say, he has followed the work of his  forefathers?  Yeah.  Yeah.  :  The law was what?  :  The law —  The work of his forefathers.  The law was completed.  :  Thank you.  I just refer you to the next page.  :  I'm sorry.  What was the witness' interpretation of  those words, the law was completed?  :  Yeah, completed.  It's hardly visible in the copy that is there, but it  states that under Solomon the work of Haalus is now  sealed and something his territory and fishing holes.  Do you know what that is?  Do you recall what he said  there?  If you can't that's all right.  I'll try to refer to the original, my lord,  because it appears it's not legible.  No, I can't really read it.  On the next page the name is Geoff Morgan.  Is that 6685  G. Williams (for Plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Grant  1  2  A  3  Q  4  5  6  7  A  8  Q  9  10  A  11  Q  12  A  13  Q  14  A  15  16  Q  17  18  19  A  20  Q  21  22  A  23  24  Q  25  26  27  28  29  A  30  Q  31  32  33  34  35  A  36  Q  37  38  39  A  40  THE COURT  41  MR. GRANT  42  43  Q  44  45  46  47  A  Is that Arthur  do you recall?  the former Axtii Hiikw?  That's right.  And is that -- it states under there, "There is our  law that must be followed, that is why the elders are  here today."  Is that one of the things that he said  at the feast at the end?  Yes, that's right.  And then there is Arthur Mathews.  Mathews Sr. or Arthur Mathews Jr.  It may have been Sr..  Okay.  I'm pretty sure it's Sr..  And what house does Art Mathews Sr. belong to?  He's from the house of Luuxoon.  A frog from Xsim Ku  (phonetic).  This statement is, "Haalus has reaffirmed his  ownership, his status and has showed his ownership."  Is that the statement he made at the feast?  Yes.  And on the next page Peter Martin.  And what house is  Peter Martin from?  He's either from -- I'm pretty sure from the House of  Wiigyet, the fireweed family from Kitwancool.  Underneath that there is the statement "We must be  knowledgeable of our forefathers roads and laws.  We  have witnessed your work tonight.  Haalus you have set  an example for all others."  Is that one of the  things -- is that what he said at the feast?  Yes.  Now, after that on the next page there are notations  relating to a funeral feast settlement March 26, 1983  for George Williams in Kitwanga.  Those notations  following that, are they notations you made at your  father's own funeral feast?  That's right.  And on the following page after listing certain  contributions there's a reference to the total raised  is $15,566.  Was that raised at your father's feast?  Yes.  :  How much did you say?  Oh, yes, I see it.  :  On the top right-hand column under the date July  7th.  And I just like you to look at the last page.  There's  some references there to names; Sylvia Johnson and  Earl Campbell, Marlene Bright and Barbara Jackson.  Were these names that were given out at a feast?  Yes, they were given out at this particular feast. 6686  G. Williams (for Plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Grant  1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  Q   That's the March 26, '83 feast?  A   Yes.  MR. GRANT:  I'd ask that be marked as the next exhibit, my lord.  MR. PLANT:  Perhaps the witness could identify the date on which  the notes were made.  A   They were made March.  MR. GRANT:  Q   Well, just look --  A  March 26th, 1983.  Q   Okay.  That's when the notes were made with respect to  your father's feast?  A   Yes.  Q   What about the notes of Buddy Williams, were they --  A   No, that was February 26, 1983.  Q   So that was made right at the feast?  A   Yes.  Q   As those events occurred?  A   Yes.  MR. GRANT:  I ask that be marked as the next exhibit, my lord,  tab 6.  THE REGISTRAR:  Exhibit number 564.  (EXHIBIT 564:  Handwritten notes of G. Williams)  THE COURT:  All right.  Do you want to start something else, Mr.  Grant, or is this a convenient time to adjourn?  MR. GRANT:  This probably is a convenient time to adjourn.  THE COURT:  All right.  Thank you.  Ten o'clock tomorrow  morning, please.  THE REGISTRAR:  Order in court.  Court will adjourn until 10:00  a. m.  (PROCEEDINGS ADJOURNED TO MAY 31, 1988 AT 10:00 a.m.)  I hereby certify the foregoing to be  a true and accurate transcript of the  proceedings herein to the best of my  skill and ability.  Peri McHale, Official Reporter  UNITED REPORTING SERVICE LTD.


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