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Delgamuukw Trial Transcripts

[Proceedings of the Supreme Court of British Columbia 1988-09-13] British Columbia. Supreme Court Sep 13, 1988

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 765?  1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  N. Sterritt (For Plaintiffs)  In Chief by Mr. Rush  SEPTEMBER 13, 1988  VANCOUVER, B.C.  REGISTRAR:  Order in court.  In the Supreme Court of British  Columbia this Tuesday, September 13, 1988, calling  Delgamuukw versus Her Majesty the Queen at bar, my  lord.  My lord, the overlays to the maps were just returned  about two or three minutes ago.  Yes.  We are just in the process of assembling them.  We  are going to need about a minute or two.  I will go for a walk.  Thank you.  THE  MR. RUSH  THE  MR.  THE  THE  THE  MR.  THE  MR.  THE  MR.  THE  MR.  THE  MR.  THE  COURT:  RUSH:  COURT:  REGISTRAR:  Order in court.  (PROCEEDINGS RESUMED FOLLOWING BRIEF RECESS)  REGISTRAR:  Order in court.  RUSH:   The registrar advises me that we are also marking  the desk copies of the face and overlay maps in a  sequence as well.  So I just ask that in respect of  the two overlays that we marked yesterday that they  be marked in the next sequential -- with the next  sequential number.  I believe, is it by letter or by  number?  REGISTRAR:  That's seven are the desk copies and number six  are the large overlays.  And I don't have any other  overlay marked from yesterday.  You were talking  about number four, but you didn't mark it.  I'm sorry, I thought number four had been marked.  Do you want it marked?  Yes, I think we should mark it.  That will be 647-4 and 646-4,  RUSH:  COURT  RUSH:  REGISTRAR:  RUSH:  Yes  COURT  both for I.D.?  RUSH:  COURT:  646-4 and 647-4.  (EXHIBIT 646-4 FOR IDENTIFICATION:  Overlay, #4)  (EXHIBIT 646-7 FOR IDENTIFICATION:  #4)  (EXHIBIT 647-6 FOR IDENTIFICATION:  #6)  I'm ready to proceed.  Yes, thank you.  Large  Desk Overlay,  Desk Overlay,  NEIL STERRITT, Resumed:  EXAMINATION IN CHIEF BY MR. RUSH:  Q    Mr. Sterritt, I wonder if you would look at the  overlay map.  The one that is on the top is marked  number 9A? 7659  N. Sterritt (For Plaintiffs)  In Chief by Mr. Rush  1  A  2  Q  3  A  4  Q  5  6  A  7  8  9  10  11  12  THE  COURT  13  14  MR.  RUSH:  15  THE  COURT  16  MR.  RUSH:  17  18  THE  COURT  19  MR.  RUSH:  20  Q  21  22  23  24  A  25  26  27  28  29  30  Q  31  32  33  A  34  Q  35  36  A  37  Q  38  39  40  A  41  Q  42  A  43  44  Q  45  46  A  47  Yes.  Have you had an opportunity to review that?  Yes.  I wonder if you would compare the boundary line  shown on map 9A with that shown on map 8.  Yes.  The boundary line on map 9A includes the  external boundaries of the Gitksan territories from  the west side north all around to the east side, and  does not include the Wet'suwet'en external  boundaries.  There are several changes between map 8  and map 9A.  Could you remind me, please, what is the heavy  shaded line that follows the general contour?  The wide line, my lord?  Yes, the wide line.  That is the boundary of the 1977 map that was  presented to Mr. Faulkner.  Yes, all right.  Thank you.  Now, Mr. Sterritt, just referring to map 9A, can you  tell the court what changes, if any, there are  between the external boundary as represented in 9A  and that as represented in map 8?  Yes, there is a change from map 8 to map 9A north of  Thoen Mountain, that's T-H-O-E-N.  Thoen Mountain is  west of the north end of Babine Lake, and there is  an increase in the area of the territory from 8 --  from the boundary on map 8 to the boundary on map  9A.  Now, I think you told us yesterday that there was  also a change in this particular area in relation to  a comparison of the two earlier maps?  Yes, there was.  All right.  And is this an additional change between  map overlay 8 and 9A?  Yes, it is.  And you had -- you received information from an  informant or a hereditary chief regarding that  change?  Yes, from two hereditary chiefs.  Yes.  One was Djogaslee, Walter Wilson.  I'm not sure what  the number of Djogaslee is.  That's all right.  We referred to that yesterday, my  lord, that's number 5.  Yes?  And the other person was Wagil wit, David Green, and  that's spelled W-A-G-I-L, space, W-I-T. 7660  N. Sterritt (For Plaintiffs)  In Chief by Mr. Rush  1  Q  2  A  3  4  5  6  THE COURT:  7  THE WITNESS  8  MR. RUSH:  9  Q  10  11  A  12  Q  13  14  A  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  Q  22  23  A  24  Q  25  26  27  A  28  Q  29  A  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  Q  39  A  40  Q  41  42  A  43  Q  44  45  A  46  47  Okay.  And they identified a mountain called Djoohl da  geiss on which the boundary ran.  And with that  information, we adjusted the boundary.  Djoohl da  geiss is space -- pardon me, is D-J-O-O-H --  Sorry, D?  :  D-J-O-O-H-L, space, D-A, space, G-E-I-S-S.  And did you have notes of these discussions with  Djogaslee and Wagil wit?  Yes, I did.  Now, are there any other changes that you see  between overlay map 8 and 9A?  Going farther in a northeasterly direction to the  Driftwood River which flows south into Tatla Lake  which is just on the eastern side of the map here,  you can barely see it, the adjustment was, once  again, an inclusion of more territory.  And it's a  change from the red line on map 8 to the black line  on map 9A.  Would you just point that out again for his  lordship?  And Bear Lake is just north of that area.  And were there informants from which you received  information to conclude that there was a boundary  change to the point shown on 9A?  Yes.  And from whom did you receive that information?  I have had indications for quite a while, but not  firm enough to establish the boundary there, that a  creek called Bas lain lii, B-A-S, space, L-A-I-N,  space, L-I-I, which is on the map as Kastberg Creek,  K-A-S-T-B-E-R-G, was the boundary.  But in doing  more detail, more checking at the request of the  lawyers, Paul Jack had indicated that that was the  boundary and Mary Jack and Thomas Jack, all of whom  are members of the house of Nii kyap.  And is that a territory of the house of Nii kyap?  Yes, it is.  And were there notes kept, Mr. Sterritt, of your  discussions with those people?  Yes.  Now, can you identify any other change between the  two maps?  The major difference between 8 and 9A was the  restoring of the Nii kyap territory at Tutadi Lake  which is up in the -- in this area here.  Moose 7661  1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  N. Sterritt (For Plaintiffs)  In Chief by Mr. Rush  MR.  THE  MR.  A  Q  A  GOLDIE:  COURT:  RUSH:  Q  A  MR.  A  Q  A  RUSH:  Valley runs right down through the centre here, and  Tutadi Lake is under this line that appears here.  You are pointing to the black line in the northern  part of that area?  Yes.  And you gave testimony about that yesterday?  Yes.  And my objection to that stands.  Yes.  Now, apart from those three changes, Mr. Sterritt,  are there any other changes that you observed  between the red line on map 8 and the black line on  map 9A?  Apart from resolution of the heights of land based  on different base maps, there are no other changes  in the external boundary between map 8 and map 9A.  Okay.  Now, Mr. Sterritt, map 8, the map which was  the basis for the drafting of overlay map 8, do you  know who drafted that?  Marvin George.  And who drafted or who prepared map 9A?  Marvin George.  Now, my lord, I just ask that those two maps be  marked in sequence both in respect of the overlay  which is the large overlay and the desk overlays,  and I think that will take us to 646-8 and 646-9A  for identification.  COURT:  Yes, all right.  REGISTRAR:  647-8.  COURT:  I'm sorry, 647 or 646?  REGISTRAR:  The desk ones are numbered 647 in sequence and  the large ones are 646.  Oh, I see.  (EXHIBIT 646-8 FOR IDENTIFICATION  THE  THE  THE  THE  THE COURT  #8)  (EXHIBIT 646-9A FOR IDENTIFICATION:  #9)  (EXHIBIT 647-8 FOR IDENTIFICATION:  #8)  (EXHIBIT 647-9A FOR IDENTIFICATION:  #9)  Large Overlay,  Large Overylay,  Desk Overlay,  Desk Overlay,  MR.  RUSH:  Q  Now, Mr. Sterritt, I would like you, if you can, to  examine map four of the overlay.  And on the overlay  map, there is a date of October the 17th, 1985.  Can  you advise his lordship what the purpose for the 7662  N. Sterritt (For Plaintiffs)  In Chief by Mr. Rush  1 preparation of this map was?  2 A    This map was prepared under the instruction of legal  3 counsel for their use, and also as a map as a first  4 draft for the use of the hereditary chiefs.  It  5 contained the first draft of the internal  6 boundaries.  7 Q    Okay.  And upon whose information was this map  8 prepared, if you know?  9 A    It was prepared from information gathered by me from  10 Alfred Joseph, Leonard George, and to a certain  11 extent Glen Williams.  12 Q    And in terms of the information that you've  13 gathered, what was it that you passed onto Mr.  14 George who you say prepared it?  15 A    Well, in addition to the material that he already  16 had, my white binder maps, field notes, topographic  17 sheets, any updating that I might have had to that  18 point.  19 Q    Okay.  Now, Mr. Sterritt, I just ask you, if you  20 will, to now look at map 8 which is also a map of  21 the internal territorial boundaries of the Gitksan  22 and Wet'suwet'en, and you've told us that this map  23 was drawn by Mr. Marvin George.  Can you tell us why  24 this map was prepared?  25 A    It was --.  Once again, it demonstrated the external  26 boundaries and showed the draft internal boundaries  27 to that point.  They were draft boundaries.  It was  28 in response to demands that we were getting to  29 produce a map showing internal boundaries for the  30 province and for the court, but they were draft  31 internal boundaries.  32 Q    What can you say about the internal boundaries in  33 terms of what the maps represents, if anything?  34 A    The internal boundaries represented some of the work  35 that had gone on over the winter of 1986.  But once  36 again, they were not final and were not intended to  37 be final.  They were draft -- it was a draft map.  38 Q    And the work that you're speaking of in respect of  39 the internal boundaries, was that information that  40 was passed onto Marvin George?  41 A    Yes.  42 Q    And are you able to say, looking at the map, what  43 portion of the information that you gathered was  44 relied upon for the preparation of map 8?  45 A    Once again, the material that Marvin George had in  46 his possession.  I included, at that point, all of  47 the material I already mentioned plus any updating 7663  N. Sterritt (For Plaintiffs)  In Chief by Mr. Rush  1  2  3  4  MR.  GOLDIE:  5  6  7  THE  COURT:  8  MR.  RUSH:  9  Q  10  11  12  13  A  14  15  16  17  Q  18  19  20  21  A  22  Q  23  24  25  A  26  Q  27  28  A  29  Q  30  31  32  33  A  34  35  36  37  38  Q  39  40  A  41  MR.  RUSH:  42  MR.  GOLDIE:  43  THE  WITNESS  44  MR.  GOLDIE:  45  46  47  that I might have done over the winter which he  would have referred to some of my loose-leaf notes,  but not necessarily all of them.  Excuse me, my lord, I think Mr. Sterritt can tell  us what he has given to Mr. George.  I doubt if he  can tell us what Mr. George relied upon.  Yes.  In that period that you are referring to, Mr.  Sterritt, between December or in the winter of 1986  as you said, can you tell us what information that  you passed onto Mr. George?  Material in the white binder, field books,  topographic sheets, some loose-leaf notes, telephone  conversations, and myself going in from time to time  and talking directly to Marvin George.  All right.  And so far as you are aware, was the --  was map 8 intended to be a final depiction of the  internal boundaries of the Gitksan, Wet'suwet'en  chiefs?  No, it was not.  All right.  Mr. Sterritt, I want to ask you if you  are aware of maps which were appended to answers to  interrogatories answered by hereditary chiefs?  Yes, I became aware of them.  And do you recall the scale of which these maps were  drawn?  Scale of 1 to 50,000 and a scale of 1 to 100,000.  Yesterday in your testimony you made reference to  maps drawn at this scale.  What relationship, if  any, do those maps you referred to yesterday have to  the interrogatory maps?  As I understand it, they were the base maps on which  Marvin George was placing the information from the  material I had given him and other people and those  maps became the maps attached to some of the  interrogatories.  And those maps were marked "draft" on their face, do  you have knowledge of that?  Yes.  And what did that mean to you?  Well —  :  They were draft maps, they were not complete --  Perhaps, my lord, this is all evidence that Mr.  George surely would give better than this witness.  He has testified he had nothing to do, as I  understand it, with them.  He apparently didn't 7664  N. Sterritt (For Plaintiffs)  In Chief by Mr. Rush  1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  MR. RUSH:  Q  A  A  Q  THE COURT:  MR. RUSH:  MS. RUSSELL  MR. RUSH:  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  place the word "draft" on them.  They are even more  remote from him, if I followed his evidence  correctly, than these maps.  What role, Mr. Sterritt, did you play, if any, in  the drafting of the maps that were appended to the  interrogatory maps?  I turned the material over to Marvin George.  It  was -- from time to time he might ask me a question  or if I had new information I would phone him, but I  played no role in the preparation of those maps  other than the material that I provided.  All right.  And have you looked at those maps to  determine if they represent material that you  provided to Mr. George?  Yes.  All right.  If you would just like to return to the  witness box, Mr. Sterritt.  I'm going to show you a  map that is Exhibit 414 in the proceedings.  It's an  interrogatory map that was introduced in the  evidence, I believe, by the defendant.  Introduced  by the defendant in the evidence of Mr. Morrison.  And it is that identified as the Interrogatory  Response of Wii minosik, that's W-I-I M-I-N-O-S-K-I.  I'm sorry, Mr. Rush, how did you spell that again?  Wii minosik, W-I-I M-I-N-O-S-K-I.  :  S-I-K.  S-I-K, sorry.  And that's number 77 on the  plaintiff's list.  Now, you have that in front of you, have you,  Mr. Sterritt?  Yes, I have.  And I just ask you to review the interrogatory map.  The map is dated August the -- or at least the  interrogatory response of Robert Stevens is dated  August the 7th, '86?  Yes.  Now, can you identify the internal boundaries of the  territory that's represented on this map as having  been drawn from information provided by yourself to  Mr. George?  Yes.  And these boundaries that appear on this map  are incomplete based on the further work that I did  in gathering information about the boundaries of  that territory.  Now, in terms of it being incomplete, what do you 7665  N. Sterritt (For Plaintiffs)  In Chief by Mr. Rush  1  2  A  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  Q  10  11  12  13  A  14  15  16  17  18  19  Q  20  A  21  22  23  Q  24  A  25  26  27  THE  COURT:  28  THE  WITNESS  29  THE  COURT:  30  THE  WITNESS  31  THE  COURT:  32  THE  WITNESS  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  MR.  RUSH:  41  Q  42  43  A  44  Q  45  46  A  47  mean by that?  Well, I had done -- when I saw this map after it had  been drawn, I recognized immediately that there was  further information available that informants had  given to me that would have resulted in a different  boundary here.  And subsequent information as well  that I gathered when I got into the more intensive  process of the affidavits.  All right.  Is there a change in the boundary that's  shown on the Wii minosik map that you can identify  as having been the subject of subsequent information  that you received?  There is several changes.  One of them is in the --  approximately the middle of the map on the left-hand  quadrant there is the name Dam ant gilek, that's  D-A-M, space, A-N-T, space, G-I-L-E-K.  Under that  is the boundary which runs Xsa ant gilek which is  spelled X-S-A, space, A-N-T, space, G-I-L-E-K.  I'm sorry, and that's a boundary between?  Between -- well, it's reflected here as Ax moogwasx  and Wii minosik.  Ax moogwas is spelled A-X, space,  M-O-O-G-W-A-S-X.  Mr. Sterritt, if you'll just look at the --  Oh, I'm sorry, I'm wrong there.  There is a dash  line which would show that it is Waiget is on the  north side and Wii minosik on the south side.  I'm sorry, the one on the north side?  :  Waiget under the house of Wiigyet, W-A-I-G-E-T.  Thank you.  :  And W-I-I-G-Y-E-T.  Thank you.  :  Now, in doing the more detailed work, I sat down  with James Morrison and Sam Morrison, and they were  able to zero in with mileages more precisely how far  Xsi luu djekwit is, X-S-I, space, L-U-U, space,  D-J-E-K-W-I-T.  How far that creek is from Xsa ant  gilek, spelled X-S-A, space, A-N-T, space,  G-I-L-E-K.  And, in fact, the boundary was at Xsi  luu djekwit and not at Xsa ant gilek.  All right.  The information that you received from  James and Sam Morrison, is that contained in notes?  Yes, it is.  And is the effect of that information that the  southern boundary of Waiget is at Xsi luu djekwit?  Yes, it is.  The other thing is, as I mentioned when  we went through the photographs last June, in fact 7666  N. Sterritt (For Plaintiffs)  In Chief by Mr. Rush  1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  THE COURT:  THE WITNESS  MR. RUSH:  Q  A  A  Q  A  Q  A  James Morrison had pointed out that the boundary was  Xsi luu djekwit and had told me at that point, but  the similarity between Xsa ant gilek and Xsi luu  djekwit was -- would have been my mistake in putting  it on and Xsa ant gilek where it should have been on  Xsi luu djekwit.  I will spell that again for the  reporter.  X-S-I, space, L-U-U, space,  D-J-E-K-W-I-T.  I'm sorry, D-J-E-K?  :  D-J-E-K-W-I-T.  And in respect of this map as well, are there any  other changes that resulted in further research work  that you did with the hereditary chiefs?  The other area is at the headwaters of the Mosque  River, M-O-S-Q-U-E, which is directly to the right  of the area we were just talking to -- talking  about.  It appears on the map as Xsi gwin hliiyuun,  that's X-S-I, space, G-W-I-N, space,  H-L-I-I-Y-U-U-N.  Those words run along the southern boundary on the  right-hand side of this map?  Yes.  All right.  And in one of my earlier interviews, I had received  the information about a creek called Xsi luu  wagooxst, and that's spelled X-S-I, space, L-U-U,  space, W-A-G-O-O-X-S-T.  And that creek appears on  the west side of the Skeena.  And in talking to  James Morrison and James Angus Sr., I had  misunderstood where Xsi luu wagooxst was.  And where did you put it as it's shown on this map?  If you come down on the west side of the Skeena, the  first named creek below where Mosque River strikes  the Skeena.  In other words, where the eastern  boundary -- southern boundary strikes the Skeena and  comes down, you see the name Xsi luu wagoosxt there.  X-S-I, space, L-U-U, space, W-A-G-O-O-X-S-T.  In  fact, in sitting down and discussing in more detail  with James Morrison and James Angus Sr., Xsi luu  wagooxst is the creek that enters the Mosque River.  It does not appear on the map named.  But where a  creek strikes the boundary under the word Hliiyuun,  H-L-I-I-Y-U-U-N, it comes directly from the east and  strikes, that is Xsi luu wagooxst.  And the Wii  minosik boundary and the Wii gaak, that's W-I-I  G-A-A-K, boundary runs along -- continues along Xsi 7667  N. Sterritt (For Plaintiffs)  In Chief by Mr. Rush  1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  MR.  RUSH:  Q  A  luu wagooxst.  MR. RUSH:   All right.  Now, are there any other changes that  you see in respect of this map?  MR. GOLDIE:  My lord, before my friend goes to that, I wonder if  in order to assist me the witness could recall when  the discussions took place which resulted in the  corrections he's making, and whether there are  notes .  Well, Mr. Sterritt, the concern has been expressed  about the existence of notes.  May we take it that  unless you say otherwise there are notes for what  you have indicated or should I ask you in respect of  each?  I think you could generally assume that there are  notes.  There is a -- I should mention that there  are notes for this, I believe, in my notebooks.  I  can't remember which field book it would be.  You  would find it in the James Angus reference to Xsi  luu waggoxst.  And then in my handwritten notes --  pardon me, the loose-leaf notes, you would find the  discussion between James Angus Sr. and myself, and  possibly with James Morrison.  But James Morrison  and I had discussed it separately as well and with  James Angus Sr.  What developed was that I would do  a first draft with a -- of my understanding of the  boundaries of the territory for the affidavit  process, and then from there on there could be a  change on reviewing this information with the  hereditary chief that the hereditary chief made.  Those would all end up being reflected in the  affidavit.  And I might not necessarily -- although  I usually do, I might not necessarily have a note in  my loose-leaf notes.  Q    So the change, you're saying, was made on the draft  of the affidavit?  A    Well, that's a process that developed.  So in the  question of will there always be -- should you ask  me every time, this is what happened when we got  into the affidavit process.  Q    And what period of time are we talking about for  that process?  A   After June of '87.  Q    In respect of the notes that you're referring to  here and, in particular, the last reference that you  made in discussions with James Morrison and James  Angus Sr., what time are you talking about when 766?  N. Sterritt (For Plaintiffs)  In Chief by Mr. Rush  1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  A  Q  A  Q  A  THE COURT:  THE WITNESS  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  there would be notes for this discussion?  Well, the original entry on the creek Xsi luu  wagooxst would have been -- could have been three or  four years ago.  And the adjusting -- the notes that  resulted in the adjustment are, if I recall, in the  period following June.  Of?  Of 1987.  But there are notes on that.  All right.  Now, in respect of the boundaries shown  on this map, is there another change that you became  aware of as a result of your further investigations  with the hereditary chiefs?  Yes.  The boundary then, instead of taking the jog  to the north on the right-hand side of the sheet,  continued out towards the north arrow that appears  on the map sheet and then goes up.  And you see a  mountain feature called Gwi Duultsw, that's spelled  G-W-I, space, D-U-U-L-T-S-W.  And that lettering  appears very close to the north -- the tip of the  north arrow.  And the boundary runs along that and  then goes up onto the height of land west of that  area and then over to -- yes, there is a mountain  there called Wii guux, W-I-L, space, G-U-U-X.  I'm sorry?  :  W-I-L, space, G-U-U-X, space, H-L-O-O.  That's Wii  guux hloo.  It goes up to Wii guux hloo, and then  goes up to --.  I don't recall the English name of  the mountain, but there is a mountain.  It could be  Fort Mountain which it goes up onto, and that is  reflected on the map 9A.  Now, would it be fair to say, generally speaking,  that the boundary is shown on this map attached to  Mr. Stevens' interrogatories in the upper right-hand  quadrant was moved from the position it's located  there further towards the centre of the map?  Yes.  And you had information from the hereditary chief  which led you to that conclusion?  Yes.  And from whom did you receive that information?  From James Morrison.  And can you date, approximately, the time that you  received that information and was it contained in  the note?  I'm not sure whether that is contained in a note.  I  can't remember whether that's contained in a note.  All right.  Can you say about what time it was that 7669  N. Sterritt (For Plaintiffs)  In Chief by Mr. Rush  1  2  A  3  Q  4  5  6  A  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  Q  24  25  A  26  27  28  Q  29  30  A  31  32  Q  33  34  A  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  Q  43  44  A  45  THE COURT:  46  THE WITNESS  47  THE COURT:  you received that information from Mr. Morrison?  Sometime in the -- I believe in the winter of 1987.  All right.  Now, as you look at the map, Mr.  Sterritt, are there any other changes that you note  in respect of this interrogatory map?  Yes, there is the mountain territory of Baskyelaxha  which appears on the map, at the bottom end of the  map, within the territory of Wii minosik.  And in  the discussions that I had with Sam Morrison and  James Morrison, they were able to accurately  identify where that mountain was and give the name  for it.  And it actually appears up in the area near  Xsi luu djekwit, the boundary area that we described  before.  But it's a small mountain area, and it does  not appear on the later map.  But it is an area that  Baskyelaxha had rights to.  They went in and it was  just a mountain area.  And the name of that mountain  was, if I recall correctly is Bagan huux witwit,  B-A-G-A-N, space, H-U-U-X, space, W-I-T-W-I-T.  There was a lot more detail in this territory that  Sam Morrison and James Morrison were able to give me  that appears on the later maps.  And again, are there notes of your conversation with  James and Sam Morrison?  Yes, those are loose-leaf notes that will appear as  probably headed up as Sam Morrison, James Morrison.  It will be in that portion of the loose-leaf notes.  And in terms of a time, are you able to identify a  time during which you received this information?  It would be in the three or four-month period  preceding May of 1988.  Now, Mr. Sterritt, if you will, can you identify the  area that you've been speaking of on map 9A?  Yes, Bear Lake is right here and going up the  Skeena.  The Skeena runs right up here.  This is the  territory that I'm referring to right here.  And on  map 8 you can see the red area identified that I've  referred to a moment ago Baskyelaxha, that's  B-A-S-K-Y-E-L-A-X-H-A.  And the changes are  reflected between the red line and the black line  here and here.  And by the changes, are you referring to the changes  that you've just spoken about in your evidence?  Yes.  It is just that small shape area?  :  Yes.  It looks like a race track? 7670  N. Sterritt (For Plaintiffs)  In Chief by Mr. Rush  1  THE  WITNESS  2  MR.  RUSH:  3  Q  4  5  6  7  8  A  9  Q  10  11  12  13  A  14  Q  15  16  A  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  MR.  GOLDIE:  24  THE  WITNESS  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  MR.  RUSH:  34  Q  35  36  A  37  Q  38  39  A  40  Q  41  42  A  43  Q  44  A  45  Q  46  47  A  :  Right.  Now, Mr. Sterritt, I would like you to refer now to  Exhibit 418B.  Exhibit 418B is marked as a draft  copy of part 2 of two parts to the interrogatory  responses of Wiigyet, W-I-I-G-Y-E-T, Lloyd Morrison,  August the 4th, 1986?  Yes.  Now, again, Mr. Sterritt, can you say if information  that was provided to you by hereditary chiefs is  reflected on the representation of the territory  that is shown on this map?  Yes, I can.  And what can you say about its accuracy or  completeness?  Well, this map is incomplete.  This map is a result  of an interview that I did to the west of this area  looking at this with James Morrison.  I had --  myself incorrectly assumed that he was describing  the traditional territory of Wiigyet when what he  was describing was the trapline that was registered  in his name.  Whose name?  :  The name of James Morrison.  I had conducted an  interview.  This interview would be, I believe, in  1983.  I had conducted an interview at which James  Morrison was present where we were discussing  traditional boundaries with Henry Wright, David  Green, Joshua McLean, James Morrison.  And at that  time, the traditional boundaries had been described,  but I had not correlated the two notes when this map  was prepared.  Now, this territory is the territory north of  Kisgagas; is that right?  Yes, it is .  The discussion that you've just talked about with  the four individuals, did that occur at Kisgagas?  Yes, it did.  And those people were all hereditary chiefs, were  they?  Yes.  And you say it occurred sometime in 1983?  1979.  Okay.  And were there notes that you had of that  discussion?  Yes. 7671  N. Sterritt (For Plaintiffs)  In Chief by Mr. Rush  1 Q    Okay.  2 A    They would be under -- probably under the name of  3 Henry Wright.  4 Q    Okay.  Now, you subsequently came to understand from  5 information you received that the depiction of the  6 boundary here of Waiget's territory is not accurate;  7 is that so?  8 A    Yes.  9 Q    And what is the -- from the information you  10 received, what did you learn to be the accurate  11 boundary?  12 A    The creek called Dam luu lax loobit, D-A-M, space,  13 L-U-U, space, L-A-K, space, L-O-O-B-I-T, is the  14 first creek north of the southern boundary.  And  15 that, I believe, appears on the map as Rosenthal  16 Creek, R-O-S-E-N-T-H-A-L, and that is the south.  17 And because of the way the creek flows, south and  18 eastern boundary, form part of the south and eastern  19 boundary of Wiigyet.  And the intervening territory  20 is the territory of Wii minosik between the creek  21 Luu skadakwit, L-U-U, space, S-K-A-D-A-K-W-I-T.  22 Q    And the information that you received concerning the  23 correct description of the territory of Waiget, who  2 4                did that come from?  25 A    It came from James Morrison, Sam Morrison.  What I  26 should add is that the notes of 1979 were not in  27 the -- Marvin George did not have them at the time  28 he prepared this map.  He would have had my field  29 books and topo sheets.  And when I realized what  30 James was doing and what had happened here, I  31 reviewed it.  And I already mentioned that he was  32 describing his trap, I then went and dug out this  33 scribbler that had these notes of where Henry Wright  34 and James were and reviewed them.  And that's when I  35 realized that there was a Wii minosik territory in  36 between, and I brought that to the attention of  37 Marvin.  And also I re-discussed that with Sam  38 Morrison, James Morrison, David Green, Walter  39 Blackwater and adjusted that boundary to the correct  40 location.  41 Q    Now, during the course of the conversation in 1979  42 with the four chiefs, you said you are at Kisgagas,  43 and is that south of the location of the area that's  44 depicted on this map?  45 A    Yes, it is.  When we were -- when I was doing that  46 interview, we were in a location looking more or  47 less north along the mountain range and 7672  N. Sterritt (For Plaintiffs)  In Chief by Mr. Rush  1 perpendicular to the creeks.  And we could see these  2 mountains as they went away from us, but we could  3 not see the creeks because they were down in the  4 valleys and perpendicular to our line of sight.  5 Q    On a subsequent occasion, were you at a physical  6 point where -- a different physical point where you  7 could view the same setting to allow you to see the  8 creeks and valleys in a different way?  9 A    Yes, in 1983 we landed near the north end of Lax an  10 hak, that's L-A-X, space, A-N, space, H-A-K, that's  11 Shelf Ridge, S-H-E-L-F.  And it gave us a broad side  12 view.  We were looking east towards this entire  13 range of mountains that extended north of Kisgagas.  14 Q    Okay.  Now, the discussion that you had with Mr.  15 Morrison in relation to the placing of the boundary  16 of Waiget at Dam luu lax loobit -- excuse me, at Luu  17 lak loobit, when was that discussion?  18 A    1983.  Pardon me, were you referring to the  19 interview?  20 Q    Yes.  21 A    In the field or a subsequent interview?  22 Q    Well, I was referring to the subsequent interview?  23 A    Okay.  I'm sorry, I wasn't listening closely.  I  24 think it was in the fall of 1987.  Within the  25 past -- within the past year.  Sometime within the  26 past year.  27 Q    And is that recorded in a note?  28 A    Yes.  29 Q    All right.  Now, Mr. Sterritt, in respect of -- in  30 respect of Exhibit 418B, can you say whether or not  31 the information that you spoke of in 1983 is  32 reflected in this map?  33 A    Yes, it more or less -- I did a sketch in my field  34 books which would show -- which would show a sketch  35 of the mountains and the creeks and would probably  36 indicate on there what James is telling me in terms  37 of hereditary chiefs and so on.  38 Q    Now, I take it that there was a change in the  39 placement of the boundary as a result of your  40 discussion with Mr. Morrison in 1987?  41 A    Yes.  42 Q    And to your knowledge, is that reflected in map 9A?  43 A    Yes, it is.  There is a further change and that's  44 that the boundary runs up the creek called Xsu wii  45 wiltwit, that's X-S-U, space, W-I-L, space,  46 W-I-L-T-W-I-T.  47 Q    And is that is Xsu wii wiltwit shown on this draft 7673  N. Sterritt (For Plaintiffs)  In Chief by Mr. Rush  1  2  A  3  Q  4  A  5  6  Q  7  A  8  9  10  11  Q  12  13  A  14  Q  15  A  16  Q  17  A  18  19  20  21  22  23  Q  24  25  A  26  Q  27  A  28  29  30  Q  31  A  32  33  Q  34  35  36  A  37  Q  38  A  39  40  THE COURT:  41  THE WITNESS  42  MR. RUSH:  43  44  45  46  47  copy?  The creek is, but not the name.  Where is the creek, Mr. Sterritt?  If you see the -- well, the name Luus on the -- at  the top of the map?  Yes.  Immediately to the left within an inch is a creek  that comes from the -- that flows southwest from the  northeast, that's the creek Xsu wii wiltwit.  And  the boundary was to run right up Xsu wii wiltwit.  Now, the information that you got for that change,  from whom did you get that information?  From James Morrison and Sam Morrison.  And is that recorded in a note somewhere?  Yes, I'm pretty sure it is.  And is that change reflected in map 9A?  Yes.  And that change resulted in -- you can see the  dash line in the very centre of the map going up the  top of the map, that's the height of land.  And that  line, then, would run the -- that dash line would  run along the height of land and come down the creek  Xsu wii wiltwit.  And does Xsu wii wiltwit, to your knowledge, have an  English name?  No, it does not.  Okay.  Excuse me, Stuart, what I'm not sure of is whether  the reporter would like me to spell those every  time?  Just nod your head if you do.  You are talking about Xsu wii wiltwit here?  Well, any of the names when I use them so close to  together.  All right.  Now, you've made reference to Wii  minosik, Mr. Sterritt.  Is Wii minosik -- the  present holder of that name is Robert Stevens?  Yes.  And what clan is he from?  Lax Seal, L-A-X, space, S-E-A-L, that's the Frog  Clan from Kisgagas.  I'm sorry, his English name?  : Robert Stevens. And Kisgagas is K-I-S-G-A-G-A-S.  All right. Now, Mr. Sterritt, I also wanted to ask  you about -- generally in respect of this map and  others I will show you, but questions about  spelling. What can you say, if anything, about the  spelling of features that are shown on this map and  others? 7674  N. Sterritt (For Plaintiffs)  In Chief by Mr. Rush  1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  MR. GOLDIE:  MR. RUSH:  Q  A  MR. GOLDIE:  MR. RUSH:  Q  A  A  MR. RUSH:  THE COURT:  MR. RUSH:  THE COURT:  MR. RUSH:  Q  A  Q  A  I'm sorry, when my friend adds the words "and  others".  You're quite right.  We will have to put them all in  front of you.  Mr. Sterritt, what can you say about  the accuracy of the spelling on this map?  I'm not quite sure about your question.  Why don't you lead.  I mean if there is  something --  To your knowledge, were the names that you had been  given by the hereditary chiefs properly reflected in  terms of the spelling and the placement on this map?  Oh, well the names appear on the correct creeks and  in the right locations on this map.  The spelling,  yes, generally -- I have no difficulty with the  spelling either.  Okay.  And I am here referring to the physical  features on the map.  Yes.  All right.  I'm through with that now, Mr. Sterritt.  I would like to produce to Mr. Sterritt Exhibit  366E.  Now, Mr. Sterritt, if you will just look at  this map.  366E, my lord, is marked as Tenimgyet in  the bottom right-hand corner, and this is a  representation of the response to the  interrogatories of Art Matthews Jr.  Could I be reminded of the correct spelling of  Tenimgyet?  T-E-N-I-M-G-Y-E-T.  Thank you.  And it is 62 on the plaintiff's list.  Mr. Sterritt, do you recognize the  representation that's shown on this map?  Yes, I do.  And can you identify this map as containing  information which you had received from a hereditary  chief and was passed onto Mr. George?  Yes.  I had made a helicopter flight to this area.  It was actually the very first helicopter field trip  that we had made.  And on that trip we were working  out the technique.  But in any event, the  information on here is partly a result of that first  trip and of subsequent discussions with members of  the house of Axtii Hiikw, and that's spelled  A-X-T-I-I, space, H-I-I-K-W. 7675  N. Sterritt (For Plaintiffs)  In Chief by Mr. Rush  1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  Q    Did you make notes of that, Mr. Sterritt?  A   And Gwis gyen, Stanley Williams, G-W-I-S, space,  G-Y-E-N.  Yes, there are notes of this.  They  probably would appear in Stanley Williams' notes and  in the Art Matthews' file.  Q    Now, what period of time are you talking about that  these notes would appear?  A    The helicopter flight, I think, was in the fall of  1982, and the discussions were intermittently with  Stanley Williams.  They would probably appear in my  field books and then eventually in the loose-leaf  notes that I kept in a couple of binders.  Q    The summary of your helicopter field trips indicates  a trip on October the 18th, 1982.  That would be this trip.  And it shows that that was with Stanley Williams and  Art Matthews Sr.?  Yes.  And Russell Stevens?  Yes. Russell was simply along to assist with the  Gitksan language because Stanley and Art Sr. were  both speaking in Gitksan.  Now, Mr. Sterritt, can you comment on the  completeness of the line shown as representing  Tenimgyet's territory?  Mr. Rush, I think if you are going to turn to the  details on that, we will take the morning  adjournment before you do that, please.  RUSH:   Thank you.  REGISTRAR:  Order in court, court will recess.  (PROCEEDINGS ADJOURNED AT 11:15 FOR MORNING RECESS)  I hereby certify the foregoing to  be a true and accurate transcript  of the proceedings herein to the  best of my skill and ability.  A  Q  A  Q  A  MR. RUSH  THE COURT  MR.  THE  LISA FRANKO  OFFICIAL REPORTER  -h2 N. Sterritt (for Plaintiffs) 7676  N. Sterritt (For Plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Rush  1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  THE REGISTRAR:  THE COURT: Yes  MR. RUSH:  Q  (PROCEEDINGS RECOMMENCED AFTER RECESS)  Ready to proceed?  Now, the information that you had passed onto Mr.  Marvin George concerning this map, Mr. Sterritt, the  information you received was from which informants  or hereditary chiefs?  A   Primarily from -- the information for -- primarily  Stanley Williams and Art Matthews senior.  As I  mentioned, it was our first effort at helicopter  reconnaissance, and we flew the territory literally  and identified features but we didn't set down.  We  just flew on through and tried to do our best.  We  found that that was not the best way to conduct the  reconnaissance.  We later set down at locations and  identified with better accuracy.  In any event, this  boundary is generally complete except for two main  areas, and that is at -- in the centre bottom of the  map at Dam Git Axsol, that's D-a-m space G-i-t space  A-x-s-o-1.  Q   Now, Mr. Sterritt, as I understand it, if you turn the  map on its side we got an arrow --  A   Yes, the north arrow runs the length of the map, not  the width of the map.  Q   And in that situation Dam Git Axsol, which you have  just referred to, would be on the left or the west?  A   On the west side of the map, yes.  Q   And was there information that led you to an  alteration or adjustment of the boundary at a point  that you subsequently received?  A   Yes.  As I mentioned yesterday, it was a communication  error on my part, and the boundary subsequently  excluded Sand Lake, and we last winter went on a  field trip to the area, and Art Matthews junior and  Art Matthews senior showed me exactly what they were  talking about, and the Sand Lake came back into the  territory.  Q Yes. And if I can summarize your evidence. This map  shows that Sand Lake is included within Tenimgyet's  territory?  A   Yes.  Q   But upon receiving subsequent information you -- the  boundary excluded Sand Lake?  A   Yes.  Q   And then again at a later point in time from your 7677  N. Sterritt (For Plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Rush  1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  discussions with Art Matthews senior and Art  Matthews junior it re-included Sand Lake?  A   Yes.  Q   All right.  Now, the discussions which you had were --  they were reduced to notes?  A   Yes.  The field trip, when we drove there last winter,  there are notes that would be under the name of Art  Matthews junior and senior, and I believe there was  a note as well about -- that I made, and I  misunderstood the communication about removing that  territory originally, that -- after this map was  made.  Q   All right.  Now, you said there was another area --  GOLDIE: Excuse me, this was last winter, was it?  WITNESS:   Yes.  RUSH:  Q   On the ground trip that you took with Matthews?  A  Was in 1988.  The prior discussion that I had with Art  Matthews junior was about a year earlier.  MR. RUSH:   This is the subject matter of Mr. Art Matthews  juniors evidence.  Uh-huh.  MR.  THE  MR.  THE  MR.  COURT:  RUSH:  Q  A  THE  THE  THE  THE  COURT:  WITNESS  COURT:  WITNESS  All right.  Mr. Sterritt, would you point out to the  court where the other change, if there is another  one, is shown on this map as you understood it from  your information?  Well, the difficulty that appears on this map is on  the east boundary that appears just below the name  Lelt, L-e-l-t.  If you go down to the left slightly  there are two names there spelled A-n-s-a space  G-a-1-t-s-e-t-l-t-x-w-t, and then right underneath  that is another word spelled A-n-s-a space  G-a-n-1-e-x-s, pardon me, L-e-k-s.  The boundary was  to go to -- now that -- by the way, the first name  that I just spelt for you is misspelled.  It should  be Sagan Tsaltwit, S-a-g-a-n space T-s-a-1-t-w-i-t.  I'm sorry T-a -- the second word?  T-s-a-1-t-w-i-t  All right.  And the difficulty that I was having was in  locating where Sagan Tsaltwit was, and subsequent  discussions with -- and the field trip last spring  with Art Matthews senior and junior and discussions  with Stanley Williams locates Sagan Tsaltwit down  Xsu Gwin Biiyoosxw, X-s-u space G-w-i-n space  B-i-i-y-o-o-s-x-w. 767?  N. Sterritt (For Plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Rush  1 Q   Is that shown on this map?  2 A   Yes.  3 Q   Whereabouts is that located?  4 A   It's -- the creek, shaded creek immediately to the  5 left of the name Guxsan, G-u-x-s-a-n.  And Sagan  6 Tsaltwit is located right at about the "S" of  7 Biiyoosxw, B-i-i-y-o-o-s-x-w.  8 Q   Does that have an English name?  9 A  Well, yes, I think it's on the map as Insect Creek or  10 Mosquito Creek.  11 Q   And can you say when you came by this information that  12 led you to conclude there was a difference between  13 what's shown on this map and what the boundary ought  14 to be?  15 A   Could you repeat that please.  16 Q   Just when did you become apprised of the information  17 which led to your concluding the difference as shown  18 in this map and in the place where the boundary  19 ought to be?  20 A  After this map was drawn, and it would appear in notes  21 that I had with Art Matthews senior and junior and  22 Stanley Williams, and that would be -- I couldn't  23 pin them down to one or two months, but in the  24 period of the last -- of the year preceding May of  25 1988.  26 Q   Mr. Sterritt, on this particular map, and it appears  27 in respect of the other maps I have shown you, the  28 features are identified in Gitksan; is that right?  29 A   Yes.  30 Q   Is there any over adjustment that you note in respect  31 of this particular territory of Tenimgyet's?  32 A   I don't -- well, the only other adjustment would be in  33 later maps that Marvin had it was easier to  34 determine where the height of land was, and so it  35 would be on the north boundary.  He sorts that out.  36 It's not a change as a result of further  37 information, it's a change because of better maps  38 that are used to define the height of land.  39 Q   On this map are the contour lines shown?  40 A   No, they are not.  41 Q   Okay.  Now, can you just point out to His Lordship on  42 9A where that second adjustment was made.  You  43 talked yesterday about Sand Lake.  44 A   Sand Lake is here on the west side of the Tenimgyet  45 territory.  The red line is map 8 which would  46 reflect the boundary that appears on the  47 interrogatory map here, and on that Sagan Tsaltwit 7679  N. Sterritt (For Plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Rush  1  2  3  4  5  6  7  Q  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  A  15  Q  16  17  18  A  19  20  21  MR.  RUSH: '  22  THE  COURT:  23  MS.  KOENIG  24  MR.  RUSH:  25  MR.  GOLDIE  26  MR.  RUSH:  27  Q  28  29  30  A  31  32  33  MR.  GOLDIE  34  35  36  THE  COURT:  37  MR.  RUSH:  38  Q  39  A  40  41  42  Q  43  A  44  45  46  Q  47  A  appears in this area.  That's S-a-g-a-n space  T-s-a-1-t-w-i-t.  And in fact Sagan Tsaltwit is the  mountains right down in this corner on Insect Creek.  And so the boundary comes down and then along up and  back to the -- to where the original map was,  interrogatory map.  All right.  Mr. Sterritt, there was a second Tenimgyet  map attached to the responses of Art Matthews junior  to the interrogatories, and I would like now to  place that in front of you.  It is Exhibit 366G.  And this is identified as Schedule C to the  interrogatories response of Tenimgyet, Arthur  Matthews junior dated 02/11/87.  Yes.  Showing again a marked draft copy.  And Mr. Sterritt,  can you tell us what general area this map refers  to?  It's an area just several miles downstream from  Kitwangak on the west side of the Skeena at Wilson  Creek, and I understand that --  There has been a flood.  Would you ask Ms. Koenigsberg to be more careful.  SBERG: I'm sorry.  I apologize to every one for that little --  : Not at all.  -- interlude.  Now, Mr. Sterritt, you are addressing this attention  to this map with Tenimgyet.  I believe you said on  the Skeena.  At what point again?  At Wilson Creek.  And I understand that there was a  field trip there with Peter Grant and Mr. McEachern  and others, Mr. Mackenzie and others last summer.  : Well, My Lord, that's not a field trip in the  sense -- in the sense of providing information for  the -- the witness is referring to.  I remember the occasion.  Go ahead Mr. Strerritt.  This -- this map reflects the information that was  available to Marvin George at the time that I  provided to him.  And from what sources?  From my field books, topo sheets and perhaps some  discussions that might appear on the loose-leaf  sheets, but I am not sure about that.  What chiefs in particular?  Stanley Williams and Art Matthews senior, but more -- 7680  N. Sterritt (For Plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Rush  1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  Q  9  10  A  11  12  13  Q  14  A  15  THE  COURT  16  MR.  RUSH:  17  A  18  Q  19  A  20  Q  21  22  A  23  24  25  MR.  RUSH:  26  27  THE  COURT  28  Q  29  30  A  31  32  Q  33  34  35  36  A  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  Q  45  THE  COURT  46  THE  WITNE  47  THE  COURT  it would appear more in my field books, and the area  that ended up having further definition subsequent  to this draft map is on the west side up in the  mountains.  It's fairly complex because of a number  of peaks that are in the area up there.  The  boundary goes to a mountain called Ha Hlelpwit, I  believe spelled H-a space H-1-e-l-p-w-i-t.  Now, if I can ask you to pause there.  Is that  mountain shown on the map?  Well, the mountain area is, but that name is not.  It  appears in the contour area right under the name Wii  Hlengwax, W-i-i space H-1-e-n-g-w-a-x.  That's the bottom of the map?  On the bottom of the map on the west side.  :  On the bottom of the map in which --  The name Hlengwax appears.  It would be on the west side of the map.  Yes.  The west side of the map.  If you orient to the north, My Lord, the bottom would  be on the left.  If you orient the map like so, it's right by Wii  Hlengwax right here, the north arrow being on the  right-hand side when you orient it this way.  The mountain area is at the place where the words Wii  Hlengwax appears.  :  All right.  Now, that information about that mountain and that  mountain area, that came from whom?  From Art Matthews junior, Art Matthews senior and  Stanley Williams.  All right.  Now, can you just express what the change  was in the boundary, as depicted on this map, and  what you subsequently learned to be the more  complete depiction of the boundary?  Just above the name Wii Hlengwax on the map is a  contour, some typed contour lines with the name  Sagat, S-a-g-a-t, and the boundary runs along the  contour down through the name Wii Hlengwax and  around following the contour near the 5,000 foot  contour you see there, and then back down to the  name Spaiyt Mook, which is on the map a little to  the left as S-p-a-i-y-t space M-o-o-k.  And what is --  :  Where is that?  3S:  If you follow the line from --  :  You show me. 7681  N. Sterritt (For Plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Rush  1 THE WITNESS:   Here is Sagat, S-a-g-a-t.  Here is Spaiyt Mook,  2 S-p-a-i-y-t space M-o-o-k.  3 THE COURT:  Yes.  4 THE WITNESS: And the boundary basically follows the countour  5 around to Ha Hlelpwit, H-a space H-1-e-l-p-w-i-t and  6 back around to there.  7 THE COURT: Thank you.  8 MR. RUSH:  9 Q   Were there any other changes in the boundary that  10 conformed to the evidence that you obtained that is  11 shown on this map?  12 A   Yes.  On the north side of the boundary the line is  13 generally correct except that it -- when it gets  14 near the Skeena before it gets right down onto the  15 flats above the Skeena River it turns and goes  16 upstream taking in more territory going up to the  17 bank of the Skeena.  18 THE COURT:  I have got a red line drawn on my map already that  19 suggests that the bulge at the top should be cut off  20 and an area, the bottom added.  Is that right?  21 THE WITNESS:  Yes.  I have the same red line on this map.  22 THE COURT:  Yes.  All right.  2 3 MR. RUSH:  24 Q   All right.  Mr. Sterritt, I wonder if you just look --  25 firstly, are there any other changes that -- to the  26 representation of the boundary on this map?  27 A   Not without -- unless I had a map that I could compare  28 exactly, but generally those are the main changes on  2 9 the map.  30 Q   All right.  And in terms of the knowledge that you  31 were provided by the hereditary chiefs, you identify  32 the Tenimgyet, Art Matthews junior, Art Matthews  33 senior and Stanley Williams, can you say how the  34 description of the Tenimgyet territory at Wilson  35 Creek, say how accurate that description is as shown  3 6 9A?  37 MR. GOLDIE:  I'm sorry, I don't understand that question.  How  38 accurate the description on 9A --  39 THE COURT: Is 9A accurate —  4 0 MR. RUSH:  41 Q   Perhaps I could just ask Mr. Sterritt, does 9A reflect  42 the information that you were provided?  43 A   Yes, it does, and reflects the affidavit that was --  44 that Art Matthews senior -- that is contained in the  45 affidavit of Art Matthews senior.  46 THE COURT:  You say is 9A and reflects the changes you have just  47 described? 7682  N. Sterritt (For Plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Rush  1 THE WITNESS:  Yes.  2 MR. RUSH:  3 Q   All right.  You can set that aside.  4 MR. GOLDIE: I'm sorry, My Lord, the note I have is that the  5 source of information for these changes was Art  6 Matthews junior, Art Matthews senior, Stanley  7 Williams, and I don't have a note of when he  8 received that.  9 MR. RUSH:  10 Q   You described two particular changes, Mr. Sterritt.  11 Can you give us some idea about the time it was that  12 you received the information that you referred to?  13 A   Yes.  In the months -- the field trip with Art junior  14 and Art senior was in late January or early February  15 of 1988.  The discussions -- I had discussions with  16 them prior to that, and they will appear in the  17 field notes.  When I mean prior to that, I mean in  18 the year prior.  I also had extensive discussions  19 with Stanley Williams, and those notes will  20 appear -- I think there may be some subsequent in  21 1988, but I think they are all in 19 -- primarily in  22 1987.  And you will find notes from Stanley Williams  23 going right back to 1980.  24 Q   Those located in your field notes?  25 A   Yes.  But the notes on these changes with Stanley  26 Williams would be in -- I think in 1987.  27 Q   All right.  You described, Mr. Sterritt, a field trip  2 8 that you were on with Art Matthews junior and Art  29 Matthews senior?  30 A   Yes.  31 Q   Yes.  There has been -- I am going to show Exhibit  32 351, which is a photograph of Mr. Sterritt.  Just  33 ask you if you can identify photo 2.  I hope you  34 can.  35 A   Yes.  That's me on the east side of the Skeena on  36 Highway 16 almost directly opposite Wilson Creek.  37 Q   And is that during that field trip that you spoke of?  38 A   That's on the field trip that we took with the  39 Matthews last winter.  40 MR. RUSH:   Okay.  The Exhibit was 351, My Lord, but the  41 photograph number is 351-2.  42 Q   Now, I am going to ask that another exhibit be placed  43 before Mr. Sterritt, and that is Exhibit 58.  44 THE REGISTRAR:  It's an affidavit of Hanamuxw, Joan Ryan, My  45 Lord, and it's a separate exhibit.  4 6    MR. RUSH:  47 Q   And this is simply marked draft copy at the bottom 7683  N. Sterritt (For Plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Rush  1 with some words at the bottom, and then in the  2 right-hand corner is a label with Schedule C and  3 another label saying Schedule C to the  4 interrogatories response of Hanamuxw, also known as  5 Joan Ryan dated 02/20/87.  Now, Mr. Sterritt, do you  6 recognize the area depicted in this map?  7 A   Yes, I do.  8 Q   And did you provide information to Mr. George to  9 assist him in preparing this map?  10 A   Yes, I did.  11 Q   And can you say from whom the information was  12 obtained?  13 A   It was a combination of information from a field trip  14 to the area and discussions that I had had with  15 Stanley Williams, Eli Turner, Ken Harris, and in  16 particular on the field trip I had -- I had a  17 certain amount of information, but not accurate  18 boundary information, and I extrapolated to put the  19 boundary through Wii Loop, and that was information  20 that I supplied to Marvin George, or when he was  21 drawing it I recommended to him that he put it  22 through Wii Loop.  23 Q   Wii Loop looks to be a feature spelled W-i-i knew word  24 L-o-o-p virtually in the centre of this map.  Is  25 that the feature you are talking about?  26 A   Yes.  27 Q   The field trip that you referred to, do you recall the  28 date of that?  29 A   This was in 1983, the summer of 1983.  30 THE COURT:  This is Kispiox down here?  31 THE WITNESS:   Kitsegucla -- there is Kitsegucla down there.  32 THE COURT:  Yes.  All right.  33 MR. RUSH:  34 Q   Mr. Sterritt, your summary of field trips indicates  35 that on August the 24th, 1983 there was a field trip  36 that you made to Kisegucla east of the head of Price  37 Creek, and then in brackets it's near Wii Loop, and  38 the same spelling as earlier, and it indicates that  39 you went there with David Milton, Ernie Hyzims,  40 H-y-z-i-m-s, and Glen Williams.  Is that the trip  41 you are referring to?  42 A   Yes, it is.  43 Q   Now, when you say that you extrapolated in respect of  44 the Wii Loop feature, what do you mean by that?  45 A   There was a range of mountains on the south side of  46 the map, and I was aware that the boundary went down  47 Xsu Wii Luu Negwit, X-s-u space W-i-i space L-u-u 7684  N. Sterritt (For Plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Rush  1  2  Q  3  A  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  12  Q  13  14  15  A  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  Q  23  24  A  25  MR. RUSH:  26  THE COURT  27  THE WITNE  28  Q  29  30  A  31  32  Q  33  34  A  35  36  Q  37  38  39  A  40  41  Q  42  A  43  Q  44  A  45  46  Q  47  A  space N-e-g-w-i-t.  That's a creek, is it?  Yes.  I at this point did not have accurate  information as to where the boundary went -- I mean,  I didn't -- so I was extrapolating, and subsequently  on discussions with Stanley Williams he informed me  that the boundary did not go through Wii Loop, it  went along the tributary that is west of Wii Loop,  and that's where the change was made to.  It reduced  the area of Hanamuxw by the distance between Wii  Loop and the tributary.  All right.  And I wonder if you can refer to map 9A  and show -- if it shows on map 9A where that change  occurred.  Yes, there is a purple line -- here is Kitsegucla  right in this area, and this is the territory that  we are talking about, and the -- there is a purple  line going across here and the black line here.  The  change was made to go down the tributary here and  not through Wii Loop, which is the mountain feature  right there.  Showing the mountain feature virtually in the middle  of the purple line?  Yes.  Purple line is map four, My Lord.  :  Yes.  3S:  And there was -- well --  Is there any other change to that boundary that you  knew of?  Only that the -- that the boundary runs down Xsi Noon,  X-s-i space N-o-o-n, to the Kitsegucla River.  That appears to be a creek in the northern part of the  depiction of the land area on this map?  That's right, yes, it's a creek on the north side of  the territory.  All right.  Now, did you have information given to you  by a hereditary chief that indicated that change to  the creek?  Yes, it was -- once again Stanley Williams and, I  believe, Ernest Hyzims.  Ernest Hyzims is Gwagl'lo?  Hyzims, H-y-z-i-m-s.  And Gwagl'lo is 17 on the list?  Yes.  And also another person I think that referred to  that was Gideon Johnson, G-i-d-e-o-n.  Is Gideon Johnson a hereditary chief?  Yes. 7685  N. Sterritt (For Plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Rush  1 Q   Now, that can be set aside, My Lord.  2 MR. GOLDIE: Again, My Lord, I ask my friend to illicit when the  3 discussions with Stanley Williams took place which  4 resulted in the change of the boundary.  5 THE WITNESS:   This will appear in the —  6 MR. RUSH:  7 Q   Just a moment, Mr. Sterritt.  You have sided two areas  8 of the Hanamuxw map which resulted in a change from  9 information received.  Can you identify about what  10 time the change that referred to Wii Loop occurred?  11 A   I believe -- I think it would be somewhere around June  12 of '87 or subsequent to that.  That's as close as I  13 can bring it.  And the discussion with Gideon  14 Johnson would be about the same time.  I think those  15 notes with Gideon Johnson, it would be Gideon  16 Johnson and Stanley Williams.  I don't think there  17 will be a separate note of Gideon Johnson.  18 Q   You made reference to a discussion with Mr. Eli Turner  19 and Ken Harris?  20 A   That will appear in the field book, my field books.  21 That was earlier information.  22 MR. GOLDIE:   Yes, I understood from the witness, and I hope I  23 have the note correctly, that it was the discussion  24 with Stanley Williams that corrected what he had  25 been given earlier by Eli Turner and Ken Harris.  26 THE WITNESS:   Let me give you the sequence.  Stanley Williams  27 on several occasions and on another occasion Eli  28 Turner and Ken Harris had talked about the mountain  29 Wii Loop.  I had not been there yet, and I wrote --  30 I had -- I tried to locate it based on my  31 understanding of the geography.  I did not put down  32 any boundary information except that I think they  33 mentioned that Wii Loop belonged to Gwagl'lo,  34 G-w-a-g-1'l-o.  It was later on that I had more  35 detailed discussions with Stanley Williams that  36 helped me to locate where the boundary was there.  I  37 made an assumption myself about where the boundary  38 went.  Nobody told me that it went over Wii Loop.  I  39 made an assumption about where it went.  This was a  40 draft map and that was the basis that Marvin George  41 drew this.  They were simply talking about Wii Loop.  42 Q   And then the discussion you had with Mr. Turner and  43 Mr. Harris.  44 A   That would -- that appears in a field book in 1983,  45 1984.  I can't say exactly.  And then the subsequent  46 discussions were with -- these were later  47 discussions I had with Stanley to try and narrow 7686  N. Sterritt (For Plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Rush  1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  down where the boundary went in relation to Wii  Loop, and that would be in '87.  MR. GOLDIE: Subsequent to June, '87?  THE WITNESS:  It could even have been just a bit before.  It's  around that period.  I had a number of discussions  with him.  MR.  RUSH:  Q  A  Q  A  A  Q  A  Now, in relation to the change that occurred at the  northern part of that territory, you indicated you  had a discussion with Gwagl'lo, Ernest Hyzims, that  resulted in the change of the boundary being placed  at the creek.  I think you gave us the name of the  creek.  It wasn't just with Ernest, it was with Gideon Johnson  and Stanley Williams, and that was in -- there was  discussions in later in 1987 and there were  discussions earlier in 1987 about that area, and  then I also in the winter of '88 went on -- I drove  up that valley, I think on three occasions, twice  with Stanley Williams and Gideon Johnson and once  with Stanley Williams and Ernest Hyzims.  Which valley is that?  That's up the -- going up the Kitsegucla River from  Kigsegucla.  In other words, I took three different  field trips by automobile up there, and those appear  in my loose-leaf notes under Stanley Williams.  And  it would be Stanley Williams with Gideon Johnson,  Stanley Williams with Ernest Hyzims.  All right.  Can you set that aside, Mr. Sterritt.  Now  can the next Exhibit 345 be placed before Mr.  Sterritt please.  And this is a map that is  identified as Schedule C to the interrogatories  response of Spookw, also known as Steven Robinson,  dated 02/03/87, draft copy, and it's marked Spookw  on the bottom right-hand corner.  As I said, it's  Exhibit 335.  I just ask you to review this map, Mr.  Sterritt.  Now, was this depiction of the territory  of Spookw a result of information which you had  gathered from hereditary chiefs?  Yes.  And can you say who and what time it was that the  information was gathered?  I gathered information from some of the hereditary  chiefs at Kigsegucla, Stanley Williams, Ernest  Hyzims, David Milton.  I'm going quite a ways back.  When you say quite a ways back, what -- what period of  time? 7687  N. Sterritt (For Plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Rush  1 A   Could have been in the 1970's perhaps.  I would have  2 to check.  And also from Steve Robinson.  It was a  3 fairly complex area and difficult to sort out, and  4 this boundary area or most of the boundary lines on  5 here except a good part of the southern one are  6 incorrect.  7 Q   And by that, incorrect in terms of information that  8 you subsequently were given?  9 A   Yes.  10 THE COURT:  Where are we?  11 THE WITNESS:   Hazelton is just up here, the Carnaby Sawmill is  12 right about here.  13 MR. RUSH:  14 Q   Now, subsequent discussions with hereditary chiefs led  15 to your obtaining information that adjusts this  16 boundary, is that correct?  17 A   Yes.  For example --  18 Q   Yes.  Can you point out the areas where the change  19 occurred?  2 0 A  Well, the boundary on the south should come down  21 that -- the creek that it does, and then instead of  22 going to the Skeena south of Carnaby, it should  23 continue on more or less in a line along a drainage  24 to almost opposite the mouth of Xsi Am Loop, X-s-i  25 space A-m space L-o-o-p.  26 Q   And is there an English name for that feature?  27 A  We locally call it Stoney Creek, but I think the next  28 creek just north of it is Burdick, B-u-r-d-i-c-k.  I  29 don't -- I don't think there is an English name  30 for --  31 Q   Okay.  Now, the creek that you have mentioned, how  32 does that relates to Xsi Luu Saada?  33 A  Well, all I am saying is that the location of the  34 boundary when you do come to the Skeena is almost  35 directly opposite that creek on the other side.  36 That's how I would locate where the boundary is  37 between Kigsegucla and the Gitanmaax territories in  38 that area.  39 Q   All right.  40 A   Okay.  And in -- well, I can't say what Marvin had in  41 mind, but it's very difficult to determine which way  42 the drainages go here, but the boundaries should  43 have gone to opposite Stoney Creek, which is  44 reflected on the later map.  45 Q   All right.  Now, just so that we are clear, the Stoney  46 Creek that you are referring to has -- goes by the  47 Gitksan name of? 76?  N. Sterritt (For Plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Rush  1 A   Xsi Am Loop, X-s-i space A-m space L-o-o-p.  2 Q   And that is on the?  3 A  West bank of the Skeena.  4 Q   West bank of the Skeena and on the left-hand side of  5 this map.  It seems to outflow just to where the "s"  6 is on the Xsan?  7 A   Right.  8 THE COURT:  Xsi Am Loop is Stoney Creek?  9 THE WITNESS:   Yes.  10 MR. RUSH:  11 Q   Now, the information that you received, Mr. Sterritt,  12 about the placement of the southern boundary came  13 from whom?  14 A   Both from people in Kigsegucla, Olive Ryan, Stanley  15 Williams -- I don't recall whether David Milton told  16 me that, but for sure those two as well as Steve  17 Robinson, Spookw.  18 MR. GOLDIE: Is this the correction —  19 MR. RUSH:  I think we are talking about just the change --  20 Q   You are here referring, are you, Mr. Sterritt, to the  21 fact that the southern boundaries should join with  22 the Skeena at a point opposite where Stoney Creek is  23 located?  24 A   Yes.  25 Q   Is that correct?  26 A  Well, okay, the earlier information -- the information  27 on which this was based would have come from, I  28 believe, Stanley Williams, and from possibly David  29 Milton, but I don't recall, and then the updated  30 information, what came from Olive Ryan, Stanley  31 Williams, Steve Robinson and, I think, Steve also  32 made reference to that -- to me earlier, more  33 farther up the -- up the mountain where the creek  34 comes down.  That would be an earlier reference of  35 Steve Robinson, but I'm not sure about that.  36 Q   Okay.  Now, if we can just focus in, in terms of the  37 information received that resulted in a change in  38 this depiction.  And the first one, as I identify  39 it, was the change of the southern boundary that  40 outflowed at the point across the river from Stoney  41 Creek.  Is there another area that you can identify  42 as an area of change?  43 A   There is another lake that doesn't appear on this map.  44 It's actually part of the outflow of Seeley Lake,  45 and it's known as Dax Oop, D-a-x space O-o-p.  46 THE COURT:  I'm sorry, could I have it again please.  47 THE WITNESS:  D-a-x space O-o-p. 7689  N. Sterritt (For Plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Rush  1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  MR.  THE  RUSH:  Q  A  Q  A  COURT  MR. RUSH:  MR.  THE  THE  GOLDIE:  COURT:  WITNESS  THE COURT  THE WITNESS  MR.  RUSH:  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  A  Q  A  Q  A  Now, if you will --  And —  If you will just pause there.  If you look at this  exhibit, there appears to be a feature there which  seems to be D-a-x-o apostrophe o-p and an arrow and  a circle.  Does that have any relationship to what  you have just indicated?  That's what I am referring to.  Now, is this a different change from the southern  boundary which the witness says now extend the  river --  As I understand the witness's evidence, he is saying  that there is a lake that should be on the map but  which isn't, and he's just identifying that lake  now.  But there is a feature on the map with that name.  Yes.  And what boundary is this on?  That is -- that outflow lake and the creek to --  that goes for two or three inches there, belongs to  the House of Wii Goobil, W-i-i space G-o-o-b-i-1.  Yes.  I'm sorry, Mr. Sterritt, I meant which north  south east west boundary of that map are we talking  about.  We are looking now near the north boundary.  If  you see Seeley Lake Park on the map, just at the end  of the Seeley Lake is where I am referring to, and  then that and the creek that goes north before it  turns west is the territory of Wii Goobil.  So there is territory in there?  Yes.  At Dax Oop?  Yes.  Which is the territory of Wii Goobil?  Yes.  And how large is that territory?  It's just either side of that stream, and the lake  area, that Dax Oop Lake area.  All right.  Now, that information for that change came  from which chief?  From my -- my dad has referred to that and I have --  Is this Neil Sterritt?  Oh, for the change?  Yes.  I had notes of that earlier, and they didn't get  reflected on this map.  The change arose partly from 7690  N. Sterritt (For Plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Rush  1 Steve Robinson, and those will appear in my --  2 should appear in my discussions with Steve Robinson,  3 and those notes are in the spring of 1988.  4 Q   Okay.  But you said that you had earlier information  5 identifying a territory of Wii Goobil in that place?  6 A   Yes.  7 Q   And where --  8 A   Those will be —  9 Q   -- are those located?  10 A   I don't know whether they are in my field books or in  11 some -- in a scribbler.  They may be in a scribbler  12 that went with the loose-leaf notes.  13 Q   All right.  And who do you -- who did you receive that  14 information from?  15 A   Jessie Sterritt.  16 Q   And she holds the name of Wii Goobil?  17 A   Yes.  18 Q   All right.  19 MR. GOLDIE: So that's number 2, yes.  2 0 MR. RUSH:  21 Q   All right.  Now, there are other changes that --  22 MR. GOLDIE: Can you tell us when —  2 3 MR. RUSH:  24 Q   Can you identify a timeframe, Mr. Sterritt, at which  25 you received this information?  26 A   It could have been before 1980, those scribbler notes.  27 Q   And you're saying that that note wasn't reflected in  2 8 this map?  29 A   That's right.  That scribbler wouldn't have been in --  30 Marvin George wouldn't have had access to that  31 scribbler.  It's later when I was going through the  32 more intensive review I referred to that scribbler  33 as well.  34 Q   All right.  Now, is there another change that's  35 reflected in --  36 THE COURT: If you're going to another change, Mr. Rush, I think  37 I would like to adjourn now, please.  38 MR. RUSH:   All right.  Thank you.  39 THE REGISTRAR:  Order in court.  This Court will adjourn until  40 2:00.  41  42 (PROCEEDINGS ADJOURNED FOR LUNCHEON RECESS)  43  44 I HEREBY CERTIFY THE FOREGOING TO  45 BE A TRUE AND ACCURATE TRANSCRIPT  46 OF THE PROCEEDINGS HEREIN TO THE  47 BEST OF MY SKILL AND ABILITY. 7691  N. Sterritt (For Plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Rush  3 LORI OXLEY  4 OFFICIAL REPORTER  5 UNITED REPORTING SERVICE LTD.  6  7  8  9  10 (PROCEEDINGS CONTINUED AT 2:00 p.m)  11  12 THE REGISTRAR:  Order in court.  In the matter of Delgamuukw  13 versus Her Majesty the Queen at bar, my lord.  14 THE COURT:  Mr. Rush.  15  16 NEIL STERRITT, Resumed:  17  18 EXAMINATION IN CHIEF BY MR. RUSH: (Continued)  19 Q    Just referring you back to the interrogatory  20 response of Steven Robinson, you were going to  21 direct your attention to other changes in this  22 boundary line, Mr. Sterritt.  23 A    Yes, the creek that leaves Seeley Lake is called Xsa  24 giist, X-S-A, space, G-I-I-S-T.  And where that  25 creek runs over to the main creek running from the  26 mountain from the outlet is -- belongs to Wii  27 goobil, W-I-I, space, G-O-O-B-I-L.  And then the  28 boundary there of Spookw runs up the creek.  And I  29 can't remember the exact name or spelling of the  30 creek that comes off the mountain, but I think it's  31 Xsihl stekyoodenhl, and that's X-S-I-H-L, space,  32 S-T-E-K-Y-O-O-D-E-N-H-L.  Now, the boundary runs up  33 to the -- where the -- I think it's the 1,500-foot  34 contour at the base of the mountain, and then it  35 runs along the base.  So on the west side of the  36 contour line would be Nika teen and on the east side  37 of the contour is Spookw, and then we run out of the  38 map area here.  It follows along that contour for a  39 distance.  40 Q    And does it —  41 A   And the boundary that is on the east side in the  42 middle of the map actually continues -- instead of  43 the line going down to that creek, it continues  44 along the height of land that goes out of the map  45 just below the north arrow.  46 Q    Does the -- does the boundary with the changes  47 you've indicated come back down the Skeena? 7692  N. Sterritt (For Plaintiffs)  In Chief by Mr. Rush  1  A  2  3  4  5  6  Q  7  A  8  Q  9  10  11  12  A  13  14  15  Q  16  A  17  MR.  RUSH:  18  THE  COURT:  19  20  21  THE  WITNESS  22  THE  COURT:  23  THE  WITNESS  24  THE  COURT:  25  THE  WITNESS  26  27  28  29  30  THE  COURT:  31  THE  WITNESS  32  THE  COURT:  33  THE  WITNESS  34  35  36  37  THE  COURT:  38  MR.  RUSH:  39  Q  40  41  42  43  A  44  45  Q  46  47  Oh, yes, with the exception of the area of Wii  goobil, the boundary of Spookw runs down Xsa giist  to the Skeena at the mouth of Xsa giist, and then  down the Skeena back to opposite the mouth of Stony  Creek.  And that's what you referred to earlier?  Yes.  Now, this change that you've indicated -- that  you've identified as running along that 1,500-foot  contour line and running off the map, when was that  indicated to you?  Probably about February or March of 1988.  It —  well, let me say it could have been late 1987 and  early 1988.  I don't recall the exact dates.  And who instructed you about this?  Spookw, Steve Robinson.  Steve Robinson.  Can you show me, now that I've seen the map -- stay  there, please -- where this change is that you've  just been talking about?  :  This is Seeley Lake.  Yes.  :  This is Xsa giist going down up to here.  Yes.  :  Another creek comes down here.  This line comes  out, and this is the height of land.  And it follows  way around like this and down a creek into the  Bulkley River.  And this boundary runs up this creek  to the 1,500 -- right where the mountain changes.  Yes.  :  Between --  From the foothills to the mountain?  :  Yes.  And runs along that contour for a distance  over here, and then back down to strike another  creek and into the Bulkley over farther, which would  then contain the Nika teen in that area.  All right.  Mr. Sterritt, would you just look at 9A for me,  please.  Depart from the witness box and look at 9A.  And does 9A show the change in information that you  have been given?  Yes, right almost in the centre of the map that is  reflected on 9A.  All right.  Now, if you'll just keep that map in  front of you, Mr. Sterritt.  I would ask, Madam  Registrar, if you would place 336 in front of Mr. 7693  N. Sterritt (For Plaintiffs)  In Chief by Mr. Rush  1 Sterritt.  2 Now, this is, again, a draft copy.  Now, this  3 exhibit is marked "draft copy".  And in handwritten  4 lettering on the right-hand bottom corner is the  5 word Spookw, S-P-0-O-K-W.  Now, Mr. Sterritt, is the  6 handwriting at the bottom of this exhibit, is that  7 yours?  8 A    No, it's not.  9 Q    All right.  Now, could you just look at the two  10 maps.  And I would ask you, first, if you see any  11 difference in the representation of the boundary  12 lines of the two maps?  13 A    The boundary line on 336 is identical to the  14 boundary line on 335.  15 Q    Okay.  Now, I would like you to look at some of the  16 lettering contained within the line on 336 and  17 compare that to 335.  And if you see any changes  18 there, would you identify them, please?  19 A    Well, on 335 there is some printing.  I'm not sure  20 whose that is, but on 336 there is lettering by a  21 drafts person or it's mechanical lettering, and the  22 addition of further information.  For example, Xsa  23 giist appears on 336, map 336.  X-S-A, space,  24 G-I-I-S-T.  25 Q    Now, if I may ask you to pause there.  On Exhibit  26 335, Xsa giist is shown there as the creek that runs  27 from the Skeena in a diagonal from left to right,  28 and it is apparently the creek beneath the boundary  29 line there?  30 A    Yes.  31 Q    On 336, in apparently the same place, are the words  32 "Xsi luu sada," and then the words "Xsa giist" seems  33 to be depicting a creek flowing out of Seeley Lake?  34 A    Yes.  35 Q    Now, firstly, can you tell the court if Xsa giist is  36 represented accurately on 335 or 336?  37 A    It's partially correct on each of them.  38 Q    Okay.  Well, help us out, will you?  Can you tell us  39 what is the accurate information?  40 A    Well, if we go to 335, Xsa giist is only the portion  41 from the Skeena River to where the creek outflow  42 from Seeley Lake is.  Yet on 335 it shows it --  43 although it's changed, someone has penciled the  44 change, the lettering shows it as going on up the  45 mountain.  4 6 Q    All right.  47 A    That's on 335.  On 336 the creek is coming out of 7694  N. Sterritt (For Plaintiffs)  In Chief by Mr. Rush  1  2  3  4  5  6  Q  7  8  9  10  A  11  Q  12  A  13  THE  COURT:  14  THE  WITNESS  15  THE  COURT:  16  THE  WITNESS  17  THE  COURT:  18  THE  WITNESS  19  MR.  RUSH:  20  Q  21  22  23  A  24  Q  25  A  26  27  Q  28  A  29  30  31  MR.  GOLDIE:  32  33  34  35  36  37  MR.  RUSH:  38  THE  COURT:  39  MR.  RUSH:  40  Q  41  A  42  Q  43  44  45  46  47  the lake, Seeley Lake, but appears to end when it  turns and goes to the Skeena.  And that Xsu luu  sa'd, X-S-U, space, L-U-U, space, S-A, apostrophe,  D, takes over.  That is incorrect.  That should not  be there.  All right.  Is it correct that Xsa giist in the  portion on 336 that runs out of Seeley Lake to the  point where it meets what is shown on 336 as Xsu luu  sada is correct so far as your information?  That intersection is.  That portion, yes.  And the creek then runs down to the Skeena?  And that name continues on down to the Skeena, yes.  Where is Xsi luu sada?  :  It appears on 336.  Oh, yes, I see.  It runs back across the map?  :  Yes.  At about the 1,500-foot contour?  : From the 1,500-foot contour, yes.  That was my question.  Does Xsi luu sada -- is that  the name you understand to be the name of the creek  that runs down to meet Xsa giist?  No.  Or is that name incorrect altogether?  No, that name is incorrect altogether in that  location.  Okay.  From the mountain to Xsa giist is Xsihl  stekyoodenhl, X-S-I-H-L, space,  S-T-E-K-Y-O-O-D-E-N-H-L.  My lord, my friend may be coming to this, but it  may save a little time.  When the witness says  "incorrect", does he mean incorrect that the  map-maker failed to follow the information he gave  him, or that the information that he had and which  he gave to the map-maker was incorrect?  I'm just about to come to that problem.  Thank you.  But just before I do, Mr. Sterritt.  Yes.  In the bottom portion of the map there is, and I'm  here referring to 336 and indeed 337, there appears  to -- excuse me, 335, there appears to be a creek  that follows the boundary that Xsi luu sada.  Is  there any relationship that you know of between Xsi  luu sada which you said was inaccurately identified 7695  N. Sterritt (For Plaintiffs)  In Chief by Mr. Rush  1 in the northern part of this map and the other name  2 at the bottom?  3 A    I think that is part of the confusion as between the  4 name on the southern boundary.  5 Q    All right.  Now, in terms of your own instructions  6 from the hereditary chiefs, can you instruct us or  7 tell us just what information you have received in  8 relation to 335 and relate that to 336 so far as the  9 place of Xsa giist goes?  10 A    I don't understand your question.  11 Q    Well, was it information that you had received about  12 the place of Xsa giist?  13 A    Oh, yes.  14 Q    And can you tell the court what information you had  15 received as the place of Xsa giist?  16 A    Well, Xsa giist -- the meaning of Xsa giist  17 ordinarily is that it comes from the lake or from  18 the -- through the kind of bushes that will grow  19 around the outlet of the lake, and so that part of  20 the information was right.  What was not clear to me  21 was whether it continued right to the Skeena or  22 whether a creek coming from the mountain top going  23 to the Skeena was -- would be the name that extended  24 beyond where Xsa giist joined it.  And I have had to  25 sort that out and eventually did.  26 Q    And when you say you had to sort it out, how were  27 you able to determine that Xsa giist ran out of  28 Seeley Lake and down all the way to the Skeena?  29 A    Steve Robinson pointed out to me that the name of  30 the fishing site at the Skeena, at the mouth of Xsa  31 giist, the creek there was called Sakwhl giist and  32 that the creek that came to there was also known as  33 Xsa giist.  Sakwhl giist is spelled S-A-K-W-H-L,  34 space, G-I-I-S-T.  And what that means is the mouth  35 of giist.  So from that I then knew that it  36 continued on down.  37 Q    Now, is there other lettering on here, on this map  38 336, which does not appear on 335 and which you had  39 been instructed about by a chief?  40 A    On either of the maps?  41 Q    Yes.  Well, I just refer you to just above Seeley  42 Lake Park there is a feature there as Ansa gyan on  43 336.  44 A   Ansa gyan is spelled A-N-S-A, space, G-Y-A-N.  David  45 Milton accompanied me on a trip once.  As we went  46 by, I asked him the name of that hill and he said  47 that was the name.  That would appear in my field 7696  N. Sterritt (For Plaintiffs)  In Chief by Mr. Rush  1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  MR. GOLDIE:  MR. RUSH:  Q  A  MR. RUSH:  MR. GOLDIE  MR.  RUSH:  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  A  books.  When?  Does he recall the date of the field trips?  Do you know when that was?  It wasn't a field trip, he was just accompanying me.  But that was some time ago, and I'm not sure --.  It  could have been 1982 or '83, I don't recall.  All right.  My lord, I wonder if the witness recalls when Steve  Robinson gave him the name of the fishing station on  the Skeena which provided him with a clue to the  name of the lower part of the creek coming out of  Seeley Lake?  Can you put a date to that time, Mr. Sterritt?  In the fall of '87 or very early in '88.  If I can just -- if I can refer you to 336, there is  a handwritten date at the bottom '86/12/01 on 336.  He may have told me that earlier as well, but I  don't recall that.  All right.  Now, just one other feature I'll draw  your attention to, Mr. Sterritt.  Haak stiiyetsxwit  which appears to be a mountain feature on the  right-hand corner of the Spookw map, in 335 it is  spelled -- the feature seems to be spelled one way  and in 336 another.  And I wonder if you can  recollect whether or not you were instructed about  the name and the proper spelling of that feature?  Yes.  The first time I heard the name of that was  from Eli Turner.  And the Haak stiiyetsxwit, which  is spelled H-A-A-K, space, S-T-I-I-Y-E-T-S-X-W-I-T,  and what that means is it is split in half.  The  mountain is kind of split in half.  On the earlier  draft which would be 335 when Eli told it to me, I  would have written it that way not hearing it  clearly.  But, at some point, Steve Robinson  explained it to me.  And what was actually being  said, he said it more clearly to me.  And that would  have resulted in a more accurate spelling.  Okay.  Now, the 335 is dated February 3, '87.  And  can you say when Mr. Robinson advised you about that  change in spelling in relation to that date?  We discussed a number of places and their spellings,  and I'm not sure if it was this one at that time,  but in the fall of '87.  But also, prior to that,  just in conversation with Steve and discussing that  area he had told that to me, and I'm not sure if I 7697  N. Sterritt (For Plaintiffs)  In Chief by Mr. Rush  1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  THE COURT:  THE  THE  THE  THE  THE  MR.  THE  THE  THE  MR.  THE  WITNESS  COURT:  WITNESS  COURT:  WITNESS  RUSH:  COURT:  WITNESS  COURT:  GOLDIE:  COURT:  THE  THE  THE  THE  THE  THE  MR.  THE  MR.  had a note of it at that time.  But what I would  have done is I would have understood more clearly  what Eli was telling me earlier, and I would have  had that in mind in terms of how it was spelled.  So the shorter spelling is the correct spelling, is  it?  :  No, the longer spelling.  The longer spelling?  : No, the longer spelling is the more correct.  And that's the later map?  : I'm not sure what the dates are.  In sequence, my lord, it's 336.  Yes.  : The map that would have been done earlier would be  335, and then Marvin would have added more  information later on 336 because there is more  detail on it.  I have got 336 for identification.  Yes, it was tendered, my lord --  It was taken from the possession of the Federal  Crown.  — by Mr. McKenzie on March the 8th.  And at the  time Mr. Grant said:  "I can only advise the court that I must check  it. "  And I am quoting from page 4308.  "But clearly there was an error because it  was, the interrogatory was of the province,  there was only one set of interrogatories and  the intent was the map would be the same."  And it was on that basis that it was marked for  identification.  REGISTRAR:  It was made an exhibit on March the 10th.  COURT:  Oh, was it?  was, my lord.  longer for identification?  MR. GOLDIE:  it  no  REGISTRAR:  Yes,  COURT:  So it is  REGISTRAR:  No.  COURT:  Thank you.  RUSH:   All right, Mr. Sterritt, you can set that aside now.  I would like, Madam Registrar, if you would please  produce Exhibit 420 to Mr. Sterritt.  REGISTRAR:  Book of James Morrison, tab 15.  RUSH:   It was entered as an exhibit on April 25, 1988. 769?  N. Sterritt (For Plaintiffs)  In Chief by Mr. Rush  1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  MR.  GOLDIE:  11  12  13  14  MR.  RUSH:  15  Q  16  17  A  18  Q  19  20  A  21  Q  22  23  24  A  25  Q  26  27  28  A  29  Q  30  31  A  32  33  Q  34  A  35  36  37  38  39  40  MR.  RUSH:  41  42  THE  COURT:  43  44  THE  WITNESS  45  THE  COURT:  46  THE  WITNESS  47  THE  COURT:  Now, this is a map that is labeled Schedule B to the  Interrogatory Response of Gwinin nitxw.  Gwinin  nitxw is number 20 on the plaintiff's list, also  known as Solomon Jack.  And that's dated August 21,  1986 and stamped "draft copy."  Mr. Sterritt, was information that you had  obtained from hereditary chiefs embodied in the  depiction of the territory of Gwinin nitxw on this  map?  Well, I wish my friend would put the question:  Did  he impart this information, and, if so, is it  embodied in the map?  He is collapsing two things  together.  You received certain information regarding this  territory, did you, Mr. Sterritt?  Yes, I did.  And the information that you received, that was  passed onto Mr. Marvin George?  Yes.  And so far as you are aware, is that information  depicted on the map as at the time that you imparted  it?  Yes.  Now, is the map complete in the sense that it  reflects the later information that you might have  received concerning this map?  No, it's not.  Now, who among the hereditary chiefs instructed you  about this this?  Solomon Jack, Gwinin nitxw, that's G-W-I-N-I-N,  space, N-I-T-X-W.  All right.  And this reflects the information that we had at the  time, but there was also further information that  was more precise that resulted in changes to the  boundary on the southwest side -- well, the south  and the southwest side.  Pardon me, southeast side  and along the eastern boundary.  All right.  Can you firstly identify those changes  on the southwest side?  Could you tell me approximately where is this,  please?  : When we left Bear Lake and flew to Slamgeesh.  Yes.  : We flew along the Skeena at Gitangas.  Yes. 7699  N. Sterritt (For Plaintiffs)  In Chief by Mr. Rush  1  THE  WITNESS  2  3  MR.  RUSH:  4  THE  COURT:  5  MR.  RUSH:  6  Q  7  A  8  9  10  MR.  RUSH:  11  12  13  THE  COURT:  14  THE  WITNESS  15  MR.  RUSH:  16  Q  17  A  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  THE  COURT:  27  THE  WITNESS  28  THE  COURT:  29  THE  WITNESS  30  THE  COURT:  31  THE  WITNESS  32  THE  COURT:  33  34  THE  WITNESS  35  THE  COURT:  36  THE  WITNESS  37  THE  COURT:  38  THE  WITNESS  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  THE  COURT:  : It is on all of the mountains on both sides of the  Skeena surrounding that area.  There is a name of Gitangas on this map.  Is there?  Does that show relatively where Gitangas is located?  Gitangas is spelled G-I-T-A-N-G-A-S.  And, yes, that  is in the area of Gitangas.  The other place we  mentioned was Slamgeesh, S-L-A-M-G-E-E-S-H.  All right, Mr. Sterritt.  Now, you were going to  refer us to the southwest area of this map and the  areas he came to know about.  He said southeast.  : I said southwest, and I meant southeast.  Go ahead.  Southeast.  The boundary --.  The best way to describe where the  boundary is, is if you look at -- on the right-hand  side of the map you see the name Wii gaak, W-I-I,  space, G-A-A-K.  If you come directly below that  name five or six inches, there is a creek that flows  to the left, to the west into a larger stream.  That  creek is Xsi aatix ganeexs, X-S-I, space, A-A-T-I-X,  space, G-A-N-E-E-X-S.  It's unnamed on any  government map.  Can I have that spelling again?  :  X-S-I —  I want to make sure I've got the right one.  : This creek right here.  This is the body of water?  : Yes, it runs into this stream here.  Yes, all right.  Just a moment.  And what is the  name of that again, please?  :  Xsi aatix ganeexs, X-S-I, space, A-A-T-I-X.  A-A-T-I-X?  :  Yes.  Space, G-A-N-E-E-X-S.  Yes.  : That, in fact, is the boundary -- the south  boundary of Gwinin nitxw in that area.  And then  where it strikes the Sicantine, that's  S-I-C-A-N-T-I-N-E, Sicantine River as it flows to  the left, it would be the darker line that you see.  It then comes up the Sicantine River for about a  quarter of an inch.  And there is a creek that comes  in from the west, this creek here.  The one I named  comes into here.  Yes. 7700  N. Sterritt (For Plaintiffs)  In Chief by Mr. Rush  1  THE  WITNESS  2  3  4  5  6  THE  COURT:  7  THE  WITNESS  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  THE  COURT:  40  THE  WITNESS  41  THE  COURT:  42  THE  WITNESS  43  THE  COURT:  44  THE  WITNESS  45  THE  COURT:  46  THE  WITNESS  47  : You come up the stream.  And then you come up this  stream, this is the Sicantine River here.  You come  up to that one.  And the name of the stream that  enters the Sicantine at that point is Xsi tsim twida  tamtwit, X-S-I, space, T-S-I-M —  I'm sorry, could you start again?  : X-S-I, space, T-S-I-M, space, T-W-I-D-A, space,  T-A-M-T-W-I-T.  Now, that stream runs almost  north-south for quite a distance.  But about an inch  and a half up it, another stream comes in from the  west flowing almost east-west or west-east.  And at  that point the boundary of Gwinin nitxw runs up that  stream, and I do not have a name for that, to --  right here.  This is Xsi tsim twida tamtwit right  here.  This is the stream that runs in from the west  and joins the line, the boundary line that is there  already.  Now, where the boundary runs south you would  discard and it would run north for -- along the  height of land and down to the creek you see -- down  west to the creek you see named Xsan luu skeeks,  X-S-A-N, space, L-U-U, space, S-K-E-E-K-S.  That's  Tommy Jack Creek on the map.  And we flew very close  to Tommy Jack Mountain when we were on the overview.  The boundary goes down and strikes Tommy Jack Creek  about six inches up from the Sicantine River.  And  then the boundary runs up Tommy Jack Creek to Tommy  Jack Mountain.  And from there the boundary runs  along the height of land from Tommy Jack Mountain  down to the mouth of the Sicantine on the Skeena  which, on your map, is about seven inches north of  the existing southern or the southern boundary that  you see on this map.  Sicantine River, well, is a  major river that runs north and then south in the  middle of the map, spelled in Gitksan X-S-A, space,  G-I-N, space, T-A-A, space, Y-I-N, Xsa gin taa yin.  And that's the change on the southern and the  eastern boundary in that area.  I'm sorry, did you say that X-S-A G-I-N T-A-A?  :  Y-I-N.  Was Skeena or Sicantine?  : Sicantine.  That's Sicantine?  : Yeah.  And it runs into the Skeena somewhere?  : Yes.  If you can see the writing there, you just  follow it down and you can see where it goes into 7701  N. Sterritt (For Plaintiffs)  In Chief by Mr. Rush  1  2  THE  COURT:  3  THE  WITNESS  4  THE  COURT:  5  THE  WITNESS  6  7  8  MR.  RUSH:  9  10  11  12  THE  COURT:  13  14  THE  WITNESS  15  THE  COURT:  16  THE  WITNESS  17  THE  COURT:  18  THE  WITNESS  19  20  21  THE  COURT:  22  THE  WITNESS  23  24  THE  COURT:  25  THE  WITNESS  26  27  28  29  30  THE  COURT:  31  32  33  34  35  THE  WITNESS  36  THE  COURT:  37  THE  WITNESS  38  39  40  THE  COURT:  41  MR.  RUSH:  42  Q  43  44  45  A  46  47  MR.  GOLDIE:  the Skeena.  Yes.  :  On the left-hand side of the map.  Yes, all right.  : And where it strikes there is the -- you follow the  height of land between there and Tommy Jack Mountain  for that boundary.  Now, Mr. Sterritt, that's the change that you've  identified in the southwest -- well, really  southeast to southwest portion of this map.  Can you  tell us who told you about --  Before you do that, Mr. Rush, can you show me with  your finger where the change is?  : Starting --  Starting where the Sicantine hits the Skeena?  : Yes.  Yes.  : The height of land runs along through here, through  this area right up to Tommy Jack Mountain in this  area.  Yes.  : The boundary then runs along and down this stream  right down to here.  Yes.  :  Then up the height of land up to here, along this  boundary, down this creek right back to the  Sicantine here.  And then up this creek and along  the height of land this way, and I haven't described  that yet.  I wonder, Mr. Rush, if you mind if I had Mr.  Sterritt come over and just with a red pen on my  copy mark where the new boundary is as he has just  described it.  Could you please, Mr. Sterritt.  Do  you have a red pen?  :  Yes.  And then it goes north?  :  Then it goes north and it ends up right there.  And it would have to come off the height of land  like so.  Thank you.  Now, Mr. Sterritt, who advised you about the change  from the draft copy here to the description that  you've just given?  Solomon Jack, Thomas Wright, Pete Muldoe, Jasper  Jack.  Jeffrey. 7702  N. Sterritt (For Plaintiffs)  In Chief by Mr. Rush  1  THE  WITNESS  2  MR.  RUSH:  3  MR.  GOLDIE:  4  THE  WITNESS  5  MR.  GOLDIE:  6  THE  WITNESS  7  8  MR.  RUSH:  9  Q  10  11  A  12  Q  13  14  A  15  Q  16  A  17  MR.  RUSH:  18  19  20  21  MR.  GOLDIE:  22  THE  WITNESS  23  MR.  RUSH:  24  Q  25  26  27  A  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  THE  COURT:  36  THE  WITNESS  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  :  Jasper.  Jasper.  Jasper Jack?  : Yes.  Thank you.  : David Green.  James and Sam Morrison, as well,  provided some information on that.  Okay.  Now, was this information provided to you all  at one time?  No, no.  Can you give us the approximate times that the  information was provided to you?  Over the past year and a half.  And this information is recorded in notes?  Yes.  Now, Mr. Sterritt, can you just, if you know --.  The information that you received in relation to the  line on this map was from Mr. Solomon Jack, you  indicated?  And others.  : And others, yes.  All right.  Can you explain, if you know, the  difference between the two places where the line  appears that you've just described?  It was more precise information.  For example, right  near where we first began the discussion of the  boundary on the Sicantine River, immediately to the  left of there is an area called Max hil gantw,  M-A-X, space, H-I-L, space, G-A-N-T-W.  Well, Max  hil gantw is farther along, and that area is known  as Wii luu yans, W-I-L, space, L-U-U, space,  Y-A-N-S.  Y-A-N-S?  :  Yes.  And also the creek that I --.  Both of the  creeks that I named in coming off the Sicantine,  either side of the Sicantine in the southeast  portion of the map, was detailed information that I  received both from Sam Morrison and James Morrison  and from Thomas Wright.  And Thomas Wright would  have been, oh, a year and a half ago.  It was before  he died.  I'm not sure how long before.  I think it  was during the time of his commission, sometime in  that area, that he was describing how far Wii gaak  went in that area.  Wii gaak being W-I-I, space,  G-A-A-K, 7703  N. Sterritt (For Plaintiffs)  In Chief by Mr. Rush  1  MR.  RUSH:  2  Q  3  A  4  5  6  Q  7  A  8  MR.  GOLDIE  9  10  11  12  THE  COURT:  13  MR.  RUSH:  14  Q  15  A  16  17  18  19  MR.  RUSH:  20  21  22  23  24  MR.  GOLDIE  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  MR.  RUSH:  32  Q  33  34  35  36  37  A  38  Q  39  A  40  Q  41  42  43  44  A  45  Q  46  A  47  Q  Was that during the course of the commission?  During interviews I was having with him just prior  to it or during it.  And I'm not sure if he said it  in commission, but it was during that time.  All right.  Pete Muldoe —  Purely in a formal sense, I record an objection to  any evidence which is purportedly given by Thomas  Wright which is in anyway different from what he  gave on his commission.  Thank you.  Go ahead, Mr. Sterritt.  Pete Muldoe, over the past year, gave me more  precise information on Tommy Jack Creek, as well as  Solomon Jack, which changed the boundary in that  area.  All right.  Now, you've made reference to the  boundary change in the south and west portion of the  Gwinin nitxw territory here.  There was also another  change that you referred us to.  Can you direct us  to that on this map?  My lord, I wonder --.  Before my friend goes on,  the informants for the change which came to Mr.  Sterritt over the past year and a half are two,  four, six, seven in number.  They are in his notes.  I wonder if he recalls where we would find this or  whether we would have to look under each of those  informants.  If he recalls.  In terms of the organization of the notes, Mr.  Sterritt, with regard to this particular territory,  would the references to the changes appear under the  name of the territory or under the name of the  informant?  How would --  Oh, that'll appear --  How would one find it?  Under the name of the informant.  In the case of Mr. David Green, for example, you  would look to David Green in order to determine  where the instruction came from with regard to a  change in this territorial change?  In terms of Wii luu yans?  Yes.  Yes.  And I take it that that's the case with regard to 7704  1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  N. Sterritt (For Plaintiffs)  In Chief by Mr. Rush  A  Q  A  the other informants, is that so?  Yes.  Now, can we move to the next area of change in this  map?  Yes, basically that was the height of land from the  head of Xsi aatix ganeexs, X-S-I, space, A-A-T-I-X,  space, G-A-N-E-E-X-S.  From there along the height  of land north to the junction of Squingula River and  the Skeena.  Squingula being the name on the map,  S-Q-U-I-N-G-U-L-A.  THE COURT:  THE WITNESS  MR. RUSH:  Q  A  A  Q  A  A  Q  A  Q  A  -Q-  G-  I-N?  L-A.  "I,  "I,  That's a name on the map.  Is there is there a  Gitksan name for that?  The Gitksan name is Xsi gwin gyila'a, spelled X-S-  space, G-W-I-N, space, G-Y-I-L-A, apostrophe, A.  And there are actually two of them.  There is a  large one and the small one.  And this one is wii  which is a prefix which means large, W-I-I.  Now, where does the large Squingula River, where  does that show on this map?  If you look on the map and you see the name Nii  kyap, N-I-I, space, K-Y-A-P.  Yes.  Right underneath it is Wii xsi gwin gyila'a, W-I-  space, X-S-I, space, G-W-I-N, space, G-Y-I-L-A,  apostrophe, A.  All right.  Now, the change that you've been  referring us to here, Mr. Sterritt --  Well, that is the eastern boundary of Gwinin nitxw  to that point --  All right.  -- where it hits the Skeena.  And there it meets the  boundary that came up --.  The boundary that we had  on the map in the first place.  And from there it  continues correct -- correctly up the Skeena to a  distance to the mouth of the Xsu wii ax, X-S-U,  space, W-I-I, space, A-X which is the Sustut River.  Yes.  S-U-S-T-A-T.  And then there is a creek.  Now, the  boundary there is correct on this map, but on map 9A  there are two territories described on affidavits by  two different people.  And this boundary is -- this  boundary that appears here includes the Gwinin  nitxw.  But because of the extent of the territory  on the west side of the Skeena, another person 7705  N. Sterritt (For Plaintiffs)  In Chief by Mr. Rush  1  2  Q  3  A  4  Q  5  6  A  7  Q  8  A  9  10  11  12  13  14  Q  15  16  A  17  18  THE COURT:  19  THE WITNESS  20  MR. RUSH:  21  Q  22  23  24  25  A  26  Q  27  28  A  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  Q  36  A  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  Q  46  47  A  described that territory, Walter Blackwater.  All right.  So —  The Gwinin nitxw territory that is shown on this map  is described by Solomon Jack?  Yes.  And you --  And, for the purpose of the affidavit, he came down  from the height of land at the head of Xsi laa  nadadit, X-S-I, space, L-A-A, space, N-A-D-A-D-I-T.  I had a hard time hearing what they were saying and,  in fact, that is Xsi anahl dadaa, X-S-I, space,  A-N-A-H-L, space, D-A-D-A-A.  Now, just pause there.  Where is that feature you've  just located?  Right opposite the mouth of the Sustut River.  It  follows the boundary.  Is this the Sustut?  :  This is the Sustut here and the Skeena.  Now, as I understand your evidence, there is no  change in the boundary as it leaves the place where  the Sustut leaves the Skeena following along in the  north and then to the west, is that --  That's right.  Is there any other change in this territorial  description?  Well, what I am trying to point out is that from the  head of that creek, which you can't see under that  heavy line, Solomon Jack's description comes right  down to the Skeena near Gitangas and then follows  the Skeena back down to the mouth of the Sicantine  River.  Sicantine is S-I-C-A-N-T-I-N-E.  Gitangas is  G-I-T-A-N-G-A-S.  You just perhaps show that on 9A.  Here the Sustut River right here.  Here is Xsi anahl  dada right here.  And the head of it is here and  this is the top of the mountains right here.   This  boundary comes along here and then along the Skeena  back to the mouth of the Sicantine right here.  What  is described on that map would follow this purple  line here.  In fact, it is Gwinin nitxw on both  sides, but a different person did this affidavit on  behalf of Solomon Jack.  The point -- the turning point here which you've  directed us to, is that where Gitangas is located?  Yes. 7706  N. Sterritt (For Plaintiffs)  In Chief by Mr. Rush  1  Q  2  3  A  4  5  6  7  8  THE  COURT:  9  10  11  MR.  RUSH:  12  THE  COURT:  13  14  15  THE  WITNESS  16  THE  COURT:  17  THE  WITNESS  18  THE  COURT:  19  MR.  RUSH:  20  Q  21  22  23  24  A  25  26  27  MR.  GOLDIE:  28  THE  WITNESS  29  MR.  RUSH:  30  Q  31  32  A  33  34  35  36  37  38  Q  39  40  41  A  42  Q  43  A  44  Q  45  A  46  MR.  RUSH:  47  THE  COURT:  Now, Mr. Sterritt, who instructed you about that  boundary change?  Solomon Jack.  It was from information from Thomas  Wright based on the change in the -- going up the  creek on the east side of the Sicantine River.  I've  already mentioned the names in the other parts, but  in those areas that was the change.  Mr. Rush, I would like, if it's convenient, for Mr.  Sterritt to draw that change on my map as well, if  he would.  All right.  Now, this area, the cut-off lands in the north, if I  can call it that, that's another territory of Wii  gaak, is it?  :  Gwinin nitxw.  Gwinin nitxw?  I'm sorry.  : Yes.  Thank you.  Now, Mr. Sterritt, just in respect of your  instructions concerning that boundary change, when  was it that you received those instructions from Mr.  Jack?  On that area it was in the winter of 1988.  It was  sometime --.  It might have been as late of March,  I'm not sure.  Of '88?  :  Of 1988.  And were those recorded in notes, those  instructions?  They may be.  I'm not sure because it was part of --  it was a matter of where the affidavit of Walter  Blackwater and the affidavit of Solomon Jack would  join because it was the same -- they were both  Gwinin nitxw's territory.  And I'm not sure if there  was a note on that.  So in terms -- if I can put it this way, the  southern part of Gwinin nitxw's territory was the  subject matter of Solomon Jack's affidavit?  Yes.  And the northern part was that of David Blackwater?  Walter Blackwater.  Excuse me, Walter Blackwater?  Yes, and Solomon.  All right.  Could I say for computer reference that I've marked 7707  N. Sterritt (For Plaintiffs)  In Chief by Mr. Rush  1 Mr. Sterritt's most recent red line with a double  2 red line.  Is this a convenient time to adjourn, Mr.  3 Rush?  4 MR. RUSH:  Yes, thank you.  5 THE COURT:  Will that be all with this map?  6 MR. RUSH:  Yes.  I was going to ask Mr. Sterritt to put this map  7 away.  8 THE REGISTRAR:  Order in court, court will recess for the  9 afternoon break.  10 (PROCEEDINGS ADJOURNED AT 3:00 p.m. FOR AFTERNOON RECESS)  11  12 I hereby certify the foregoing to  13 be a true and accurate transcript  14 of the proceedings herein to the  15 best of my skill and ability  16  17  18    19 LISA FRANKO  2 0 OFFICIAL REPORTER  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47 7708  N. Sterritt (For Plaintiffs)  In Chief by Mr. Rush  1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9 (PROCEEDINGS RECOMMENCED AFTER A SHORT RECESS)  10  11 THE REGISTRAR:  Order in Court.  Ready to proceed, My Lord?  12 THE COURT:  Yes, please.  13 MR. RUSH:  Referring the witness to Exhibit 416.  14 THE COURT:  Thank you.  15 MR. RUSH:  Schedule C to the interrogatories response to Wii  16 Gaak, also known as Neil Sterritt senior, and this  17 is dated January 28th, 1987.  Have you had an  18 opportunity to review this, Mr. Sterritt?  The  19 information that is mapped on this map by Marvin  20 George, is that information provided by him to you?  21 A   Yes.  22 Q   And is that information that you received from a  23 hereditary chief or a number of hereditary chiefs?  24 A   Yes.  25 Q   And who did you receive that information from?  26 A   I did a field trip to the area in 1983 with Robert  27 Jackson senior and David Green.  I had done work in  28 1979 -- well, let's say prior to 1980 with James  29 Morrison and David Green, David Gunanoot, Thomas  30 Wright -- pardon me, Henry Wright.  I had  31 accumulated quite a bit of information from quite a  32 few people over a period of time, and what I was  33 accumulating was topographic information.  34 Q   The field trip you referred to, was that on June the  35 22nd, 1983 which you went to French Peak, Kotsine  36 Mountain north of Gunanoot Lake, Shedin Creek with  37 Robert Jackson senior, David Green and Glen  38 Williams?  39 A   Yes.  40 Q   Yes, it's part of the summer helicopter trip.  Now,  41 Mr. Sterritt, in your review of this map can you  42 determine if there are places where you subsequently  43 received other information which led you to conclude  44 there was a change in this boundary description?  45 A   Yes, the -- coming straight up from the bottom of the  46 map on the right-hand side there is a -- the  47 lettering Dam Sogo Gyoot, D-a-m space S-o-g-o space 7709  N. Sterritt (for Plaintiff)  In chief by Mr. Rush  1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  THE  MR.  Q  A  Q  A  Q  COURT  RUSH:  Q  A  G-y-o-o-t.  Yes.  That's a lake.  Yes.  And the information that I received is that that lake  belongs to the House of Haiwas, H-a-i-w-a-s.  Yes.  haven't found the lake.  Oh, yes.  Q  A  I'm sorry, I  Thank you.  Haiwas is 32  take it, Mr.  THE  THE  THE  THE  A  COURT:  WITNESS  COURT:  WITNESS  on the plaintiff's list.  Sterritt, this was information received  after this map had been prepared, is it?  Yes, Haiwas and Miluulak are almost -- well, they are  side by side, and it was an area that Haiwas had  been in, and the boundary was the creek outflow of  that lake which, as you can see, flows slightly  north then west and then south --  Yes.  -- to Xsogo Gyoot, which is X-s-o-g-o space G-y-o-o-t.  Now, on the maps, the NTS maps, that would appear as  Shelagyote River, S-h-e-1-a-g-y-o-t-e.  And James  Morrison, on doing a closer checking of this area,  James Morrison and I believe -- well, Sam Morrison,  David Green, I'm not sure if I have a note on that,  but David Green confirmed that as well, that the  boundary should be altered to go in that direction  and then come down -- it does not come down as far  down the river, it comes to Wii Djap Gal Guul Djitx,  W-i-1 space D-j-a-p space G-u-u-1 space D-j-i-t-x.  And if you were looking on a map, I believe it's on  the map as Cayuse Jack, C-a-y-u-s-e, Creek.  Now, that creek seems to be lettered right at the  bottom of the -- it is not the bottom territorial  line, but it's about four inches from the bottom of  the territory, as it is shown on this map; is that  right?  Yes.  And that should be the boundary.  In other  words, Wii Gaak's southern boundary moves to that.  Who?  Wii Gaak, W-i-i space G-a-a-k.  Thank you.  And then it goes to the height of land at the head  of that creek, and then basically follows the  existing line north all along the mountains west of  Shelagyote River, so the existing boundary remains  the same along there.  MR. RUSH: 7710  N. Sterritt (for Plaintiff)  In chief by Mr. Rush  1 Q   All right.  Finally just ask you to -- if I may just  2 ask you to pause there.  The chiefs who instructed  3 you about that change, Mr. Sterritt, can you  4 first -- you named some of them.  Did you name all  5 of them?  6 A   No, I didn't.  I'm sorry.  Robert Jackson senior.  7 Q   Yes.  8 A  My father, Neil B. Sterritt.  9 Q   Now, Robert Jackson senior, I think the evidence  10 indicates, is from the House of Miluulak?  11 A   Yes.  12 Q   And the House of Miluulak is on the west -- excuse me,  13 the east side of Wii Gaak's territory?  14 A   Yes.  15 Q   Go ahead.  Your father?  16 A   Robert Jackson senior.  17 Q   Yes.  18 A   I think that's -- they are the main ones.  I think  19 they are the ones.  I'm not sure that I have any --  20 that there was anyone else that instructed me on  21 that.  22 Q   And what was the approximate timeframe of their  23 instructions to you?  24 A  Within the past year and-a-half.  25 Q   Right.  Now, does -- all right.  Now, are there other  26 changes in this boundary line that subsequently came  27 to your attention?  28 A  Well, if we continue north we end up coming to the  29 boundary that we just did with Gwinin Nitxw,  30 G-w-i-n-i-n space N-i-t-x-w.  31 Q   Is that at the point where the Sustut meets the  32 Skeena?  33 A   Yes.  If -- well, this -- I mean, if you want to make  34 the change on here or it is the same change we just  35 made on -- well, not exactly.  We have to come down  36 the Sicintine River to the -- if you follow the  37 existing boundary on this map to the Sicintine  38 River, then I'll show you from there where -- this  39 is the Sicintine River here, and that boundary  40 strikes it right at the mouth of Xsi Tsim Gwita  41 Gantwit, X-s-i space T-s-i-m space G-w-i-t-a space  42 G-a-n-t-w-i-t.  The boundary should go all the way  43 up Xsi Tsim Gwita Gantwit.  There is a lake at the  44 head that should go along that lake and along -- you  45 can see a glacier feature on there right to the  46 height of land at the head very near where the  47 existing boundary is, but this would be an 7711  N. Sterritt (for Plaintiff)  In chief by Mr. Rush  1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  additional territory.  It goes out along there.  It  would add approximately an inch of territory by the  length of that creek, before you get to the  Sicintine.  Q   All right.  And who instructed you about that?  A   Sam Morrison and James Morrison.  I'm not sure about  David Green.  He might have, but Sam and James for  sure.  THE COURT: This is the lake in here?  THE WITNESS:  There is the lake right there.  THE COURT:  It's there?  THE WITNESS:  That's the creek.  THE COURT:  What about this creek?  THE WITNESS:   That's just the way it —  THE COURT:  The contours?  THE WITNESS:  Yes.  And it comes right up and then to there.  It  goes all the way down to there.  MR.  RUSH:  Q  A  A  MR GOLDIE  THE WITNESS  So you say the change resulted in the boundary  following the contours slightly west of the existing  line on this map?  The change goes from the height of land where it is to  the creek that flows down to Sicintine River, and  the territory on the west side of that line is the  territory of Tsabux, T-s-a-b-u-x.  Now, when we get  to the Sicintine River we go down about a quarter of  an inch to the next creek coming in from the east,  and that's the one that I described first with the  Gwinin Nitxw change.  That is the creek called Xsi  Aatix Ganeexs, X-s-i space A-a-t-i-x space  G-a-n-e-e-x-s.  There is no name on the map for  that.  And the boundary runs all the way up that  creek to the height of land.  This is the one that  we did with Gwinin Nitxw all the way up here right  up to here.  The persons who instructed that are the same who  instructed you about the Gwinin Nitxw change?  Yes.  That's Sam and James Morrison and maybe David Green?  No.  No.  Mr. Rush was referring to the people  that instructed me on the Gwinin Nitxw change  originally when I described it before in that area.  MR. GOLDIE:  Oh, yes.  THE WITNESS:  And that was information from Thomas Wright.  Another person, by the way, I should mention is  Joshua McLean.  I don't think I mentioned him  earlier on either one.  Joshua McLean, Thomas 7712  1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  N. Sterritt (for Plaintiff)  In chief by Mr. Rush  Wright, those are the main persons on that.  MR. RUSH:   Okay.  MR GOLDIE: Excuse me, there was a change referred to in which  you said the source was -- the witness said the  source was Sam and James Morrison.  As I understood  it, it referred to a change in the Sicintine.  I  wonder if the witness can advise us when that -- he  received that information.  MR.  RUSH:  Q  A  pardon me,  A  Q  A  THE COURT:  THE WITNESS  THE COURT  MR. RUSH:  THE COURT  MR.  RUSH:  Q  A  Just the date that was involved.  Oh, the date.  The late fall of 198?  late fall of 1987 or winter of 1988.  Now, there you are referring to the adjustment in the  boundary as it's shown on this map from the height  of land to the creek to the west of the height of  land just south of the point where it meets the  Sicintine?  Yes.  All right.  Now, you've explained both in relation to  the Gwinin Nitxw territory and Wii Gaak's territory  that the line between the two territories runs down  the unnamed creek or the unnamed creek on government  maps, but the creek name that you have given us, and  when it reaches to the head of that creek is there  any adjustment with relation to the Wii Gaak  territory?  Yes, then the boundary is the same boundary that I  described for Gwinin Nitxw.  It runs along the  height of land, which is a dashed feature on this  map, from this point all the way along that height  of land and down, down to the mouth of the Squingula  River, S-q-u-i-n-g-u-1-a, River at the Skeena.  You start here?  Starts right in here, yes, and run along that line  like so.  It's pretty hard to find,  have got the wrong line, I  Maybe Mr. Sterritt would —  at the overlay.  Well, Mr. Rush wants you to do something else, I  think.  Lawyers have their own way.  They prefer it  that way.  Does it assist in referring Your Lordship here to the  Wii Gaak territory as it moves north?  This is the creek that we are referring to.  This is  the Sicintine River here, the Xsi Aatix Ganeex,  I see it.  No, I  Oh, yes  think.  I suggest that you look 7713  N. Sterritt (for Plaintiff)  In chief by Mr. Rush  1 X-s-i space A-a-t-i-x space G-a-n-e-e-x, comes to  2 here from there, it follows the height of land all  3 the way along through here and down to the mouth of  4 the -- right here to the mouth of the Squingula  5 River at the Skeena.  The Skeena runs right along  6 there.  7 MR. RUSH:  Now, His Lordship would like you to go to his map.  8 THE COURT:  I have found the -- the dotted line here and traced  9 it.  10 THE WITNESS: It's best to go right to here and from there and  11 then across.  12 THE COURT:  That dotted line is going a long way.  13 THE WITNESS:  Well, I think that's it.  14 THE COURT:  All right.  15 THE WITNESS:  That's another height of land going that way.  16 THE COURT:  Have I got this one right?  17 THE WITNESS:  That one is right, yes.  18 THE COURT:  And this one?  19 THE WITNESS:  That one is right, yes.  2 0 THE COURT:  All right.  There was one at the south that I didn't  21 get.  Would you mark it please.  Okay.  Thank you.  22 MR GOLDIE: I take it, My Lord, the red lines that have been  23 placed on your map of Exhibit 416 are representative  24 of the changes which are now reflected in map 9A?  25 THE COURT:  That's as I understand it, Mr. Goldie, and the same  26 for the past maps that I have had.  2 7 MR. RUSH:  28 Q   Now, you had taken us, Mr. Sterritt, to the junction  29 of the Squingula and the Skeena?  30 A   Yes.  31 Q   And the boundary then runs north on the Skeena as I  32 look at map 9A?  33 A   Yes.  You don't -- you can't tell on this map, because  34 it ends there, but the line continues up the Skeena  35 as far as Mosque River, M-o-s-q-u-e.  36 Q   Now, in terms of an adjustment in this particular map,  37 however, can you just indicate, if you can, and if  38 this map is sufficiently large to encompass any  39 further adjustments, where those adjustments are?  4 0 A   The way to do that would -- coming in from the upper  41 right corner you can see there are squares there.  42 If you came in six squares, there is a creek that  43 flows southeast -- pardon me, flows from the -- it  44 actually flows northwest, but the direction that it  45 would follow would be southeast to go up it, and  46 that creek is called Axsim Lax Anx Xsan, A-x-s-i-m  47 space L-a-x space A-n-x space X-s-a-n.  This creek 7714  N. Sterritt (for Plaintiff)  In chief by Mr. Rush  1 right here.  It's one, two, three, four, five, six  2 squares in, just about exactly where it starts.  It  3 comes all the way up to the end of the mountain  4 called Lax Anx Xsan, L-a-x space A-n-x space  5 X-s-a-n.  And that is the boundary between Nii Kyap  6 on the east and Wii Gaak on the west coming back  7 into the map.  8 Q   Does that boundary leave the map again?  9 A   Then it leaves the map there, and I can't follow it  10 any farther on this map until I come to the north  11 arrow quite a ways down the map, and I would have to  12 check to make sure that it's exactly the right spot,  13 but in the general area the Wii Gaak boundary would  14 come into the map onto the existing line and follow  15 the existing line.  From there I would have to look  16 at 9A, but I believe the line cuts off and goes  17 across into this area, but I would have to check.  18 Q   Now, Mr. Sterritt, who instructed you about the change  19 in that eastern boundary line?  20 A   This is a situation where Marvin George had certain  21 information and was working with it, and I had  22 updated information, but it hadn't gotten through  23 the process of Marvin onto the maps.  24 Q   Can you just pause there and explain that in a little  25 greater detail.  What do you mean it hadn't gotten?  26 A   I had been on some field trips in that area and had  27 information from people like William Charlie, my  28 father, my father Neil Sterritt, had worked with  29 David Gunanoot, and also further information from  30 more recently with Thomas Jack and William Jack,  31 both of whom are in the House of Nii Kyap.  32 Q   Now, if I can just divide up that.  I take it that the  33 William Charlie, Neil Sterritt senior and the David  34 Gunanoot information was provided to you more than  35 two years ago?  36 A   Yes, it was in the summer of 1985 we actually land on  37 that mountain on Lax Anx Xsan, L-a-x space A-n-x  38 space X-s-a-n, right at where the boundary was, and  39 David Gunanoot, my dad, William Charlie, and from  40 that point we worked on the boundary in that area.  41 Q   All right.  And at that time was that information  42 passed onto Marvin George?  43 A   I believe he had my notes, but whether it found its  44 way onto the maps -- he was -- Marvin George was  45 preparing the base maps and getting information onto  46 them and trying to bring that -- trying to prepare  47 that information as fast as he could, but it was a 7715  N. Sterritt (for Plaintiff)  In chief by Mr. Rush  1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  A  Q  A  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  THE COURT:  THE WITNESS  THE COURT:  major job, and I think that the stage that the maps  were at he was well behind where the information  was, the information that I had at that time.  Okay.  This map is dated January 28, 1987.  Was the  information that you are now referring to, is that  reflected on this map?  Which information?  That's the information you said that you gleaned from  the field trip with William Charlie, Neil Sterritt  senior and David Gunanoot.  No.  No, it's not.  For example, Axsim Lax Anx Xsan  was in the summer of 1985 that I believe I got that  information.  The name of that creek, the name of  that mountain, I knew that, but exactly where that  boundary was in that area, I didn't know until we  went to that area.  All right.  And in terms of the information that you  received from Thomas Jack and William Jack, when did  they instruct you about this boundary?  In the spring of 1988.  All right.  Now, were there any other persons who  informed you about parts of this boundary that you  haven't mentioned?  No, I don't think so.  I can't recall at this point.  Okay.  I didn't ask you, Mr. Sterritt, but I take it  that there were notes of these discussions?  Yes.  Now, in terms of that eastern boundary with Nii Kyap,  or even farther north not shown on this map, were  there any other informants you had concerning the  change in the boundary?  David Green provided some further detail internally.  I don't recall if he provided me with more  information about the boundary, but he certainly --  he provided further Gitksan names for features  within it.  I would have to check my notes to see  whether he also added information about the  boundary.  Mr. Sterritt, this large area shown on Exhibit 416  was intended to represent the territory of Wii Gaak?  Yes.  When these changes had been made, I'm not sure what  I'm left with.  I have got a line running vertically  through the centre of the territory from about the  middle to the north end, running on a north south  basis.  Is Wii Gaak's territory off to the east or  the west, and if -- is the western -- if so, is 7716  N. Sterritt (for Plaintiff)  In chief by Mr. Rush  1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  THE WITNESS  the -- is the eastern portion attributed then to Nii  Kyap, or what happens to that large territory?  The whole territory off Wii Gaak from those  changes takes a slight jog to the east.  THE COURT:  To the east.  THE WITNESS:  Yes.  And continues — there is actually two  territories, but described all in one continuing  north of the Sustut.  And so what you have is a line  that goes up on the west side and out of the map and  goes up around this territory and on back down on  the east side.  I could show you on map 9A, if  you --  THE COURT:  Well, could you, with Mr. Rush's concurrence, could  you just show me on here so that I can -- I think I  know what you mean by that.  I think when you're  saying that -- instead of this being Nii Kyap, it's  now this?  THE WITNESS:   That's right.  THE COURT:  What happens to this?  THE WITNESS: This is the territory that I described as being the  territory of Gwinin Nitxw.  THE COURT:  Now Gwinin Nitxw.  THE WITNESS: In the one we did just before this one, this is  Gwinin Nitxw.  This comes into here.  I understand that for the north.  Now, the south  end, it's basically unchanged except for the --  except that there is a piece at the bottom and a  piece off --  That's right, and this remains the same in here.  This goes to here and there.  THE COURT:  Yes.  All right.  Thank you.  MR. RUSH:  Q   Mr. Sterritt, would you just go to 9A, please, and  perhaps if you could point out Kisgegas for His  Lordship.  A   This is the village of Kisgegas right here.  Q   And the most southerly point of Wii Gaak's territory.  A   Right here.  Q   Yes.  And would you just take His Lordship around the  territory as it's shown on -- on overlay map 9A.  A  We went west from the Shelagyote River up to the  mountains on the west side, and followed those  mountain tops north all the way until we went down  the creek, Xsi Tsim Gwita Gantwit, X-s-i space  T-s-i-m space G-w-i-t-a space G-a-n-t-w-i-t, to the  Sicintine River right here.  Then we went up this  other creek and to the height of land here and  THE COURT:  THE WITNESS 7717  N. Sterritt (for Plaintiff)  In chief by Mr. Rush  1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  followed that height of land north until we came  down to the Skeena at this mouth of the Squingula,  S-q-u-i-n-g-u-1-a.  We then went up the Skeena --  pardon me.  This is where we came out.  The map that  you have cuts off like so in front of you, but in  fact what happens is that this is a second territory  of Wii Gaak, and the boundary continues right on up  the Skeena to Mosque River, M-o-s-q-u-e, and then  comes in through here back down to the Sustut River  right here, and then goes down the Sustut River for  several miles.  That's where we came back into this  other map.  THE COURT: Yes.  THE WITNESS:  Right there at what I described as Axsim Lax Anx  Xsan, A-x-s-i-m space L-a-x space A-n-x space  X-s-a-n.  And then what you don't have is this  portion of the map where the line runs down through  here, but where we came back in again was where this  line was right here, and that took us down like so  and to where we began at Dam Sogo Gyoot, D-a-m space  S-o-g-o space G-y-o-o-t, the lake.  Q   Now, Mr. Sterritt, just one point that you weren't  sure about until you had examined exhibit -- well,  map 9A, was that bottom right-hand corner just  before you got to Dam Sogo Gyoot.  You weren't sure  if it followed the line as it was shown on this map  or whether it was otherwise.  A   Yes.  When you go east from Dam Sogo Gyoot, D-a-m  space S-o-g-o space G-y-o-o-t, it does continue  along the height of land east of there.  It doesn't  jog down, as indicated on here.  It goes straight  east to the height of land.  Q   Okay.  Now, does map 9A reflect the changes that you  have been instructed about and given evidence about?  A   Yes, it does.  COURT:  I'm sorry, this western territory that was on here  is attributed on the west side to whom?  Gwinin Nitxw.  Gwinin Nitxw.  Thank you.  Thank you.  THE  THE  THE  MR.  WITNESS  COURT:  RUSH:  Q  You can set that aside, Mr. Sterritt, please.  Mr. Sterritt, would you please refer now to Exhibit  418A.  THE COURT:  418?  MR. RUSH:  Yes, that's right.  There was 418, yes.  We have  referred to that.  I'm sorry, I'm going to refer Mr.  Sterritt to another one, to 414, and the actual 771?  N. Sterritt (for Plaintiff)  In chief by Mr. Rush  1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  THE COURT:  THE WITNESS  THE COURT:  exhibit is 415.  Now, this is identified by a sticker in the bottom of  this map, Mr. Sterritt, as part two of three parts,  Schedule B to the interrogatory response of Wii  Minosik, also known as Robert Stevens, dated August  7th, 1986.  It's marked as a draft copy in exhibit  number 415.  Now, do you recognize that map, Mr.  Sterritt?  Yes, I do.  And was information obtained by hereditary chiefs with  reference to the line that appears on this map?  Yes.  Now, in respect of that information, was the  information from the hereditary chiefs passed onto  Marvin George?  Yes.  All right.  And what was the information that you had  received?  What form did it take?  It was in field books.  I don't know about topo  sheets, whether there would be anything on topo  sheets in this area.  There may have been some.  I  think primarily from the field books.  There may  have been some looseleaf notes, but I don't recall  that.  And who instructed you about this territory?  There was several people who provided information  here.  Walter Blackwater, David Blackwater, Nancy  Supernault, S-u-p-e-r-n-a-u-1-t, Albert Bert Tait,  Percy Sterritt.  What timeframe are you talking about that these chiefs  provided you with information?  Oh, given all those names, ranging from the late  1970's through to 1983/84.  I also was on a  helicopter field trip to this area with David  Gunanoot and James Morrison.  I think that was in  1983.  It was in 1983.  Is this map intended to show within the black  boundaries one of the territories of Wii Minosik?  Yes.  I am always confused by the label, because  interrogatories for some territories are sworn by  other hereditary chiefs, but --  MR.  RUSH:  Q  A  Q  Yes.  This is the territory known as Blackwater, is  that right?  Yes.  And it's a territory of Wii Minosik? 7719  N. Sterritt (for Plaintiff)  In chief by Mr. Rush  1  A  2  Q  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  A  14  15  Q  16  17  A  18  Q  19  20  A  21  THE  COURT  22  23  MR.  RUSH:  24  25  THE  COURT  26  MR.  RUSH:  27  THE  COURT  28  MR.  RUSH:  29  THE  COURT  30  31  MR.  RUSH:  32  THE  COURT  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  Yes.  And the helicopter field trip you are referring to,  did that occur on June the 23rd, 1983?  In your  summary it indicates:  "Connelly Range - McConnel Range - Mt.  Forrest - Near Foster Peak - Near Junction  Skeena and Sustut Rivers - Shelf Ridge -  Hazelton"  With James Morrison, David Gunanoot and Glen  Williams.  No, it  would have been possibly the next day or  within a week.  There is another within the next day on the 24th, the  Stevens Peak, west junction Damochax and Nass River.  That's the one.  And that's with James Morrison, David Gunanoot and  Glen Williams?  Yes.  : What number is that on the list?  Aren't those  filed --  Yes, it's Exhibit 679 right at the end of volume two  of Mr. Sterritt's.  :  And are there various field trips numbered?  They are identified by date.  :  Date again is?  June 24th, 1983.  : Is this convenient to adjourn, or something you want  to finish up?  No, we'll do it tomorrow.  :  Adjourn then 'til 10 o'clock tommorrow morning.  Thank you.  (PROCEEDINGS ADJOURNED TO SEPTEMBER 14, 1988  AT 10:00 A.M.)  I HEREBY CERTIFY THE FOREGOING TO  BE A TRUE AND ACCURATE TRANSCRIPT  OF THE PROCEEDINGS HEREIN TO THE  BEST OF MY SKILL AND ABILITY.  LORI OXLEY  OFFICIAL REPORTER  UNITED REPORTING SERVICE LTD. 7720  N. Sterritt  In chief by  (for Plaintiff)  Mr. Rush  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47

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