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Delgamuukw Trial Transcripts

[Proceedings of the Supreme Court of British Columbia 1988-03-23, 1] British Columbia. Supreme Court Mar 23, 1988

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 4911  A. Mathews (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Plant  1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  THE  REGIS  9  10  11  THE  COURT  12  MR.  PLANT  13  14  CROSS-EXA  15  Q  16  17  A  18  Q  19  A  20  Q  21  A  22  Q  23  A  24  25  26  27  THE  COURT  28  A  29  THE  COURT  30  A  31  32  MR.  PLANT  33  A  34  MR.  PLANT  35  THE  COURT  36  MR.  PLANT  37  Q  38  A  39  Q  40  A  41  Q  42  43  A  44  Q  45  A  46  47  MR.  GRANT  Vancouver, B.C.  March 23, 1988  (PROCEEDINGS RESUMED PURSUANT TO ADJOURNMENT)  ARTHUR MATHEWS, resumed:  ?RAR:  Calling Delgamuukw vs. Her Majesty the Queen.  I  caution the witness and the interpreter you are both  still under oath.  Mr. Plant.  Thank you, my lord.  1INATION BY MR. PLANT Cont'd:  Mr. Mathews, to your knowledge there are white farmers  who live at Wilson Creek?  Yes.  And that's on your territory?  Yes.  Have they been there for as long as you can remember?  Some of them.  Yes.  And approximately how many people are we speaking of?  Well, some of them now that there has been Bill C31,  some of them are married to Natives.  So some of them  are Natives that are living on those farms.  Like the  Perrys and the Letnes.  I am sorry, the Perrys and the -- ?  Perrys, yeah.  Ralph Perry.  Yes.  And the other name?  Letnes.  Dave Letnes.  He is married to a woman from  Kitimat.  I don't have a spelling for the last name, Letnes.  Letnes.  Oh.  Thank you.  Does Letnes -- is it Letnes?  Yes.  Did he live at Cedarvale?  Yes.  When I ask you that, does he live at Cedarvale or on  your territory?  Just on the edge.  Just outside or inside?  Oh, I have to look at the map and see that one.  But I  think it's just on the edge of one of them, anyway.  :  Maybe the witness should be allowed to look at the 4912  A. Mathews (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Plant  1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  THE  MR.  COURT  PLANT  Q  map.  :  If he wishes ,  THE  THE  MR.  THE  MR.  THE  THE  THE  MR.  THE  MR.  A  Well, it doesn't matter to me whether it's inside or  outside.  But if you would be happier, here is a map,  366G, which is the large map of the Wilson Creek  territory.  Can you identify on that map, Mr. Mathews?  Yes.  It will be just outside.  Here is the highway.  It will be just in there.  Like I said, it's just  pretty well on the boundary, pretty well.  And you are pointing to the area of the place marked  L848?  Somewhere in there.  Yeah.  Be one or --  On one side or the other?  I think it's one big lot.  They own the property on both sides?  Yes.  Part in and part out of your territory?  Looks like it, yes.  And what map is that, Mr. --  Lot 848.  Yes.  Exhibit number, please.  Oh.  366G, my lord.  Thank you.  REGISTRAR:  Tab 18.  COURT:  Thank you.  And the boundary, the downstream boundary of this  territory of Tenimgyet crosses lot 848 at the Skeena  according to this map.  Yes.  A  Q  A  Q  A  COURT  A  COURT  PLANT  COURT  PLANT  COURT  PLANT:  COURT  PLANT  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Now, turning your attention to the other territory,  the Tsihl Gwellii territory, north of Kitsum Kalum  Lake there are also homes lived in by non-natives?  Yes.  And are there farmers there also?  I don't really know.  I seen houses there, yes.  And is there -- there is a little community in that  area known as Rosswood?  Are you familiar with that?  No.  Are you familiar with the store, a general store?  Yes.  I seen a general store, yes.  Is that store inside your territory?  That little store would be -- well, I don't know.  There is two or three of them.  I don't know which one  you are talking about here now.  I am talking about the -- I should say the only one 4913  A. Mathews (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Plant  1 that I know of is at a little community called  2 Rosswood which is just at the north end of Kitsum  3 Kalum Lake.  I am pointing to you now at Exhibit 349.  4 Perhaps, Madam Registrar, you could provide Mr.  5 Mathews with the exhibit.  Now, if you look at the  6 large black mark in the lower left-hand corner, which  7 is Kitsum Kalum Lake, you see in the upper right-hand  8 corner the map says Rosswood?  9 A   Yes.  10 Q   And is there a general store of some description on  11 the road that goes north from Rosswood?  12 A   Yes.  13 Q   Inside your territory?  14 A   Yes.  15 Q   And if you go further north up into the Tsihl Gwellii  16 territory, up into the Cedar River area, you would  17 enter tree farm licence number one?  18 A   Yes.  I described the road that we took the road into  19 that area, yes.  20 Q   And also in that general area, but moving to the west  21 of Sand Lake which we have discussed several times,  22 did your grandfather ever point out to you the  23 telegraph poles that are still standing in the area of  24 Sand Lake from the old telegraph?  25 A   No.  26 Q   Did your grandfather ever tell you about mining  27 activity that was conducted in the Sand Lake area a  28 long time ago?  29 A   No.  Just this one gentleman that I was referring to  30 earlier, Old Andrew was looking for rocks.  That's  31 about the only one they mentioned, yes.  32 Q   To your knowledge Mr. William Bolton, B-o-l-t-o-n, has  33 the registered trapline for the area around Sand Lake?  34 A   No.  I am not aware of that.  35 Q   I'm instructed that he has a registered trapline that  36 takes in a part of the Tsihl Gwellii territory near  37 Sand Lake including Sand Lake.  Are you aware of that?  38 A   No.  39 Q   Do you know who Mr. William Bolton is?  4 0 A   I heard the name but I haven't met him.  41 Q   Is he a Tsimxsan person?  42 A   Yes.  43 Q   And I asked you yesterday about the claim that the  44 Tsimxsan people make to Sand Lake.  Are you aware of  45 the fact that the Tsimxsan claim all of Cedar River?  4 6 A   No.  47 Q   Are you aware of the extent of the intrusion of the 4914  A. Mathews (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Plant  1 Tsimxsan claim into the territory, the Tsihl Gwellii  2 territory?  3 A   No, I am not aware of it.  But like I said, my claim  4 stays.  We know that and we got history to prove that  5 and that's where it says.  I don't give a shit what  6 anybody says.  That's our claim.  7 Q   You knew that or do you know of the Nish -- I am  8 sorry, the Tsimxsan claim to Sand Lake?  9 A   No, I didn't.  Like I said, this is my claim and  10 that's where it stands.  11 Q   Have you ever attended meetings to discuss with the  12 Tsimxsan people the extent of their claim and its  13 relationship to the Tsihl Gwellii territory?  14 A   No, I haven't attended.  Simply because I want to meet  15 them one-on-one.  I want to meet the head of that  16 House that wants to claim it and then we'll sit with  17 the House along with my House.  18 Q   Would I be correct in inferring that you haven't had  19 that kind of meeting yet either?  20 A  We have been trying to establish a meeting that kind,  21 but they don't want to come in that direction.  They  22 want to come through another system which we don't  23 agree with.  I want to see them one-on-one.  Like I  24 said, House on House.  25 Q   What is the House that is involved in this -- in  26 respect of -- well, what is the House that you've  27 referred to that you want to have the meeting with?  28 A   That's what I want to know, who's claiming it?  I know  29 we are saying this is ours.  Where did these guys come  30 from?  That's what I want to know.  I know they are  31 Tsimxsans, but I mean which House are they  32 representing when they say they claim that?  33 Q   So you haven't been told yet which House it is of the  34 Tsimxsan that has a claim that may have an impact on  35 yours?  36 A   Yes.  We haven't been told, no.  37 Q   What is the kind of forum that the Tsimxsan people  38 have indicated that they want to have this issue  39 discussed or resolved in?  40 A  Well, they -- I think they have been trying to come  41 through their Tribal Council.  I don't know what the  42 name of it.  But that route, somewhere in that route,  43 yes.  44 Q   And have there been meetings -- let me ask you this:  45 Have you attended meetings involving the Tsimxsan  46 Tribal Council people?  47 A   No, no. 4915  A. Mathews (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Plant  1  Q  2  3  4  A  5  Q  6  7  A  8  Q  9  A  10  Q  11  12  13  14  15  A  16  Q  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  A  24  MR.  GRANT  25  26  27  28  MR.  PLANT  29  Q  30  31  32  33  A  34  35  Q  36  37  38  A  39  Q  40  41  42  43  44  THE  COURT  45  MR.  PLANT  46  THE  COURT  47  MR.  PLANT  And when I say have you attended meetings, I mean  meetings with the Tsimxsan Tribal Council concerning  their claim to part of your territory?  No.  Have you attended any meetings or Feasts with Nishga  people --  No.  -- concerning their claim?  No.  You are aware of the fact that the Nishga people have  advanced the claim that includes Sand Lake, I think  you agreed with me with that yesterday, and also in  the northeast or extreme -- in the area to the  northeast of the Tsihl Gwellii territory?  Which northeast are you talking here?  Well, looking again at Exhibit 349, if north is where  the arrow says it is, then actually it would be in  the -- very generally speaking in the area marked  "MOUN."  It's the mountains which is printed on the  base map and carrying further south from there.  Are  you aware of a claim by the Nishga people to any of  that territory?  No.  :  Well, for the record, that's outside of the boundary  of the Tsihl Gwellii territory on Exhibit 349.  So  it's not within the territory claimed by this  plaintiff where you are referring to.  Are you aware of a claim with the Nishga that overlaps  any claim of the Kitwanga House other than the Sand  Lake claim of your own House which we have already  discussed?  I can't speak on other Houses, but I can speak on my  territory.  And you are not aware of any claim by the Nishga to  any part of the territory of your House other than the  Sand Lake?  Just the Sand Lake I know, yes.  Now, I want to refer you again to a question from the  examination for discovery of Neil J. Sterritt of March  24, 1987.  And I want to put the transcript in front  of you just so that you have that to read along with  me.  It's question 1624.  1624?  Mr. Goldie —  It's 1624?  1624, my lord. 4916  A. Mathews (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Plant  1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  Mr. Goldie asks this question:  "Q     Now, continuing on up the westerly boundary,  what is the next group of people that have a  claim overlap?  A     Well, if we go back to Sand Lake and Gitax  'ol, "  G-i-t-a-x  -o-l,  this is, it is a very complex area and  the, the Nishga claim a portion of Luum An  Tsihl Gwellii"  L-u-u-m A-n T-s-i-h-1 G-w-e-1-l-i-i,  "      and I couldn't tell you exactly how much or  what -- it is a three cornered area.  The  Kitsum Kalum came into that area, so did the  Nishga and ourselves and I would believe  that the adjustment that was made with  respect to the directions from the  hereditary Chiefs Tenimgyet and and  Antgulilbix — "  And I don't have the number.  That's one of the  plaintiffs.  THE TRANSLATOR:  Number one.  MR. PLANT:  Mary Johnson I think was the person who held that  name.  MR. GRANT:  And I think that's a typo, my lord.  Because my  recollection of that was that that would have been Ax  tii hiikw not and Antgulilbix.  That's a typo in the  transcript.  MR. PLANT:  I can't speak to that and I am more interested in  the Tenimgyet part of it at any rate.  THE COURT:  Yes, all right.  MR. PLANT:  Q   So to go back to the quotation:  "      that the adjustment that was made with  respect to the directions from the  hereditary Chiefs Tenimgyet and -- "  Another hereditary chief,  "      may resolve that area there with the 4917  A. Mathews (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Plant  1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  A  9  10  11  12  13  14  Q  15  16  A  17  Q  18  19  20  A  21  22  23  24  25  MR. GRANT  26  27  28  29  THE COURT  30  MR. PLANT  31  Q  32  33  34  A  35  36  37  38  Q  39  A  40  Q  41  42  A  43  Q  44  A  45  46  Q  47  Nishga."  Now, my question for you, Mr. Mathews, is:  Did you  give directions to Mr. Sterritt, you as Tenimgyet give  directions to Mr. Sterritt which resulted in any kind  of adjustment to the external boundary of the area  claimed by the Gitksan in this court case?  The only adjustment we made was up the side of the  mountain because we say haahl daakhl and they kind of  draw the map a little too far there north or whatever  this map is pointing.  So we said we go on a height of  land coming from this corner post.  That was the only  adjustment.  Okay.  Now, the corner post in question is the blazed  tree at the west end of Sand Lake?  Yes.  Now, when you were answering my last question, you  made some gestures on Exhibit 349, and you said there  was an adjustment in respect of the height of land?  Yes.  We followed a land.  That's why we say haahl  daakhl, in our language means we don't go over the  mountain here.  We don't go over it.  But the map,  they drew it kind of went behind it, so that's only  the adjustment there is.  :  He was indicating on the north -- the northwest side  north of Sand Lake, my lord, between Sand Lake and the  word haahl daakhl which is on Exhibit 349 with his  finger.  That was the area he was indicating.  :  Yes.  Mr. Mathews, that  correct?  Is the  If you follow the  And I take it, just to clarify this,  the boundary line as drawn on 349 is  correct boundary line?  Correct as close as possible, yeah.  highlight of land and if you're in here, like I say if  we physically walked there you would appreciate what  you see and that's our boundary.  The boundary goes up to the height of land?  Yes.  And the old boundary, the boundary that was adjusted  didn't go up that far, is that --  No.  It went too far behind.  It went over?  Yes.  But what we say and what we have been taught is  we went along the height of land.  So -- well, let me ask you this:  When you are  speaking of the height of land, are you speaking of 4918  A. Mathews (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Plant  1  2  3  A  4  5  6  7  THE  COURT  8  9  A  10  THE  COURT  11  12  A  13  14  THE  COURT  15  A  16  17  MR.  PLANT  18  Q  19  A  20  Q  21  22  A  23  Q  24  A  25  Q  26  MR.  GRANT  27  MR.  PLANT  28  Q  29  30  31  A  32  Q  33  34  A  35  36  37  38  39  Q  40  A  41  42  Q  43  A  44  Q  45  MR.  GRANT  46  MR.  PLANT  47  MR.  GRANT  the height of land as it proceeds generally northward  on the northwest side of Tsihl Gwellii?  Yes.  If you come here and I'll show you.  Like I said  it's pretty hard -- difficult here.  But if you come  along, walked along here you'll see the height of  land.  It drops off and comes up and drops off.  :  Well, are you saying your original boundary before  the adjustment was closer to Lava Lake?  No.  This is the correct one.  :  Yes.  But what was it before it was corrected, if  you say it went too far?  Well, the original map that somebody drew went too  far.  :  Towards Lava Lake?  Yes.  But we -- I told them that this is ours, this is  our claim and that's where it belongs.  And your claim only goes as far as the height of land?  Yes.  So the map, whatever map it was, the line on the map  was moved a little bit?  Yes.  Closer to the heart of the territory?  Yes.  Right where it is here.  Right.  In your evidence --  :  Referring to Exhibit 349.  Yes.  In your evidence in chief, Mr. Mathews, you  identified a place which has the number two on it, on  Exhibit 349?  Yes.  And could you -- do you recall what the name of that  place was?  We called this haahl daakhl.  Lip hii hetxwit.  They  called it Lip hii hetxwit.  It looks like all alone  when you are there.  It's all alone, but they put  number two there was for that what you call a bear den  on the haahl daakhl.  I am sorry.  Carry on.  And that only means on the side, the height of land  where haahl daakhl means alongside.  When you say haahl daakhl means standing all alone?  No.  Is that --  It's on the side he said.  All right.  Side of the height of land. 4919  A. Mathews (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Plant  1 MR. PLANT:  2 Q   You referred to I think in the course of your answer  3 to a place that was standing all alone?  4 A   Yeah.  Lip hii hetxwit.  5 Q   Is that a name of the mountain?  6 A   Yes.  This one.  7 Q   The mountain that's shown on the map?  8 A   Yes.  9 MR. GRANT:  Where number two is.  10 MR. PLANT:  I ask for a spelling for that, please.  11 THE INTERPRETER:  It's 583.  12 THE COURT:  583.  Thank you.  13 THE TRANSLATOR:  583.  L-i-p space h-i-i space h-e-t-x-w-i-t.  14 THE COURT:  I am sorry, the first word of that collection of  15 words, please.  L-i-t --  16 THE TRANSLATOR:  L-i-p.  17 THE COURT:  P.  Thank you.  18 MR. PLANT:  Madam Registrar, I can't seem to locate my copy of  19 the 366E.  Do you have that exhibit?  That's the other  20 map.  The large map of the Tsihl Gwellii territory  21 which is included in the interrogatories.  I've got my  22 copy now, Mr. Mathews, and that may be -- well, except  23 they may want to mark something on the exhibit.  So  24 let me --.  25 Q   Now, Mr. Mathews, on Exhibit 366E, and if I could  26 direct your attention to the area just north of Sand  27 Lake, there is printed in letters H-a-h-1 space  28 d-a-k-w.  Is that in the general area of the hill or  29 mountain that stands all alone?  30 A   Yes.  Haahl daakhl.  That's what we call the outside  31 of it.  32 Q   And I am a little bit confused as to what the mountain  33 is called.  Is the mountain itself called haahl  34 daakhl?  35 A   No.  The mountain itself is called Lip hii hetxwit all  36 alone.  37 Q   All right.  And what is haahl daakhl?  38 A   The features outside, outside the mountain.  Here,  39 like if this was the mountain we would call this haahl  40 daakhl all around.  41 Q   The features on the side of the mountain?  42 A  Along the side.  43 THE INTERPRETER:  Along the side.  4 4 MR. PLANT:  45 Q   What is the particular feature that has that name?  4 6 A  All along the mountain.  Any mountain is got the  47 outside. 4920  A. Mathews (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Plant  1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  A  Q  A  A  Q  MR. PLANT:  Oh.  So does haahl daakhl just refer to the side of a  mountain generally?  Yes.  Does it have any special connection with this place or  could you use it to describe any side of any mountain?  This particular place I describe where the little bear  cubs would point at one bear den, he says there is one  bear den at the haahl daax Lip hii hetxwit at the bear  den.  So there is one bear den on the side of the mountain  that has the name that means the mountain that stands  alone?  Yes.  If I was to refer to the mountain, say up north in  this territory Sganism habasxw.  MR. GRANT:  East.  THE TRANSLATOR:  I didn't get that.  MR. GRANT:  From your -- you are saying north but actually you  are going east.  Yes.  Well, I mean at the -- up at the -- near the  top of the territory and the spelling on the -- on  this map is S-g-a-n-i-s-m h-a-b-a-s-x-w.  Now, that -- remember we spoke about that mountain  range up north, if I was looking at the side of that  mountain, could I say I am looking at the haahl daakhl  of that mountain also?  But we got the whole mountain.  That's -- yes, we name  it Sganism habasxw.  That's the whole mountain.  Includes the whole works.  You no longer call it haahl  daakhl.  But if you want to go along side of it,  travel along side of it, yes, you would say haahl  daakhl.  But when we are using it as a boundary we  call it haahl daakhl, yes.  When it's all ours, then  we name the whole mountain.  What do the words haahl daakhl mean?  Not "hal daakxws."  When you say "hal daakxws" it's  medicine.  It's haahl daakhl.  Haahl daakhl.  Yes.  And what do those words mean?  Alongside, like I said.  Now, going back to Exhibit 349 where you marked number  two was the location of the den where the bear cubs  were?  Uh-huh.  Is that -- should the boundary line go along where the  number two is?  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q 4921  A. Mathews (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Plant  1  A  2  3  4  MR.  GRANT  5  MR.  PLANT  6  Q  7  8  9  A  10  Q  11  12  13  14  A  15  16  Q  17  18  A  19  MR.  GRANT  20  21  22  THE  COURT  23  24  25  26  27  MR.  PLANT  28  MR.  GRANT  29  30  31  32  33  MR.  PLANT  34  Q  35  36  37  A  38  Q  39  40  41  42  THE  INTER  43  44  MR.  PLANT  45  Q  46  47  A  If we followed the height of land you could see it,  yes.  You go pretty close to there.  Like I say, it's  pretty close up this area, yes.  :  The witness --  The reason I ask you that, Mr. Mathews, is number two  and the number two is only put there as a general  indication?  Yes.  It's put -- it's a half inch or so, which might be  some miles depending on the scale.  It's a half inch  or so away from the boundary line as it's marked on  the map?  Yes.  But that's a big mountain.  That just goes right  around the lake like that.  I see.  And the boundary line goes along the top of  the mountain?  Yes.  :  The witness was pointing that it goes -- when he  said yes, he was pointing along the boundary line on  Exhibit 349 for the record.  :  My problem is that boundary doesn't look like a  height of land.  It doesn't look like a height of land  on the preliminary.  The contours would suggest the  height of land was closer to where the number two was  placed, would it not?  :  Yes.  :  Well, I think -- yes.  I think that the photographs  maybe make it a little clearer.  But that when he is  describing a mountain that's standing alone, there  is --on the contours you can see a peak.  I think  that's what -- I am sure it will --  :  Yes.  And well, would it be your understanding, Mr. Mathews,  that the line goes up to the top of that peak,  wherever that peak is?  Yes.  Okay.  Now, further along in a northerly direction,  there are words printed on Exhibit 349 on the boundary  line itself and perhaps I could ask the translator to  pronounce those words.  i>RETER:  Which one?  That's haahl daakhl.  Haahl  daakhl.  Is that the same thing that we are talking about, Mr.  Mathews, the side of the mountain?  Yes. 4922  A. Mathews (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Plant  1 Q   The reason for my concern is that in the transcript  2 where this was discussed, Volume 73, I think, page  3 4575 and 4576, the place where the bear cubs were was  4 spelled as H-a-a-h-1, which is the same first word,  5 d-a-a-x.  Would you give that the same pronunciation,  6 Madam Translator?  7 THE INTERPRETER:  Uh-huh.  Haahl daakhl.  8 MR. PLANT:  9 Q   So we are talking about the same place, I think, and  10 it's partly my -- that answers my question.  11 Now, it doesn't appear on Exhibit 349, does appear  12 on Exhibit 366E, which again is the map of the Tsihl  13 Gwellii territory, and I -- part of the map that I'm  14 now directing your attention to is the west in the  15 upper half and there is another lake marked outside  16 your territory to the west, I guess, of the boundary  17 of your territory and on this map it's marked X-s-i  18 t-'-a-x underlined, and that should be two words.  19 Does your lordship have that?  20 THE COURT:  Not yet.  Where is it?  I will come and see.  21 A   Xsi t'ax.  Xsi t'ax.  Oh, Lava Lake.  That's the first question.  Lava Lake.  Yes.  22 MR. PLANT:  2 3 THE COURT:  2 4 MR. PLANT:  2 5 THE COURT:  2 6 MR. PLANT:  27 Q   Now, drawn on this map north of Lava Lake are some  28 indications of what often appears on government maps,  29 something described as a lava outflow.  Are you  30 familiar with that?  31 A   I have seen them along the highway, yes.  32 Q   Does your House, that is the House of Tenimgyet, have  33 any an adaawk concerning that lava outflow that you've  34 seen along the highway?  35 A   No.  It's outside of our territory, so we don't have  36 any.  37 Q   Now, going back a few days, when you first began to  38 give evidence about the adaawk which you described as  39 the Biis hoon adaawk, and I am not sure that my  40 spelling of that is correct, but it's a name that has  41 been used from time to time.  42 THE INTERPRETER:  484.  43 THE COURT:  What's the number, please?  44 THE INTERPRETER: 484.  4 5 THE COURT: Thank you.  4 6 MR. PLANT:  47 Q   And this was the adaawk in which the bear cubs made 4923  A. Mathews (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Plant  1  2  3  A  4  Q  5  6  A  7  Q  8  9  10  A  11  12  MR.  PLANT  13  THE  COURT  14  MR.  PLANT  15  Q  16  17  A  18  19  20  21  Q  22  23  A  24  25  Q  26  27  28  THE  COURT  29  30  MR.  PLANT  31  THE  TRANS  32  THE  COURT  33  MR.  PLANT  34  Q  35  36  A  37  Q  38  39  A  40  Q  41  A  42  Q  43  A  44  THE  COURT  45  A  46  47  their appearance.  Do you recall the adaawk that I'm  speaking of?  Yes.  You told the court that that adaawk has what you call  secret parts, do you remember that?  Yes.  Can you give me an idea of the kind of secrets that  are included in the secret parts without telling me  the secret parts themselves?  Well, I tried to touch on it that Sisatxw, that  purification.  Does your lordship require a spelling for Sisatxw?  No.  I have it.  Thank you.  Is that the total or are there other subjects that are  included under the heading of secret parts?  There is lots.  What we call yuuhlxamtxw .  When you  yuuhlxamtxw you start teaching based upon this  particular adaawk.  All adaawks have yuuhlxamtxw along  with them.  The teaching that comes from the story itself is part  of the secret part of the adaawk?  It's the story you say.  It's not a story.  It's an  adaawk, a history.  By story I meant the narrative, the history.  I wasn't  intending to cast any characterization other than  that.  Other than narrative itself.  :  I am not sure that I have the name of the teaching  part.  The yuuhlxamtxw that he described.  :  I don't have the Gitksan word for it either.  jATOR:  It's number 345 on the list.  :  Thank you.  Though the teaching based on the adaawk is also part  of the -- is one of the secret parts of the adaawk?  Yes.  And by secret I mean it's told within your own family  only?  Yes, within our family group.  Yes.  Within the House?  Yes.  Is it within the House or within the family?  Within the House.  :  And not at a Feast?  Just when I told your lordship, that's the one that  was told in the Feast. But the rest is kept within  the House members.  That's the one that hear these 4924  A. Mathews (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Plant  yuuhlxamtxw.  1  2    ]  MR. PLANT  3  Q  4  5  A  6  Q  7  8  9  A  10  11  12  13  14  15  Q  16  A  17  Q  18  19  20  A  21  22  23  Q  24  25  A  26  27  28  Q  29  A  30  31  32  33  Q  34  A  35  36  37  38  39  Q  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  A  47  When you were telling the court the adaawk, that part  is the part that is told at the Feast?  Yes.  Apart from the purification and the teaching, what  else is included in the subject matter of the secret  parts of the adaawk?  When it's yuuhlxamtxw it covers a lot of territory.  So it's just them two is enough.  If I were to teach  you that, you will see life better than what you see  it through your eyes today.  You learn it, appreciate  little things, and that's why it's such a secret that  we want to keep that within our House.  So the teaching covers a broad range of subjects?  Yes.  Now, you also gave evidence that it would take four  months to tell the whole of the Biis hoon adaawk.  Do  you remember that?  To fill in all these yuuhlxamtxw.  Not the whole  adaawk.  If you start pulling out these secrets and  relating them to adaawk, yes.  Now, I am interested to know how you came to the  estimate of four months?  It's about -- about that time.  I didn't say it was  straight clock to the minute or to the second, no.  I  said it's approximate.  This is four months if you did it ever day all day?  Yes.  No, not all day.  I didn't say -- not once did I  say we sat all day for four months, no.  I didn't say  that.  It might be during lunchtime or suppertime  these are told.  So it would be --  Like I said to you before, that when we tell these  things it was told to us when we are eating, so you  digest it.  It goes right through your soul and your  very system.  I don't expect to eat all day for four  months doing that.  I stop, though, to think about that.  So the teaching  of all the things that you've discussed as coming  within the scope of the adaawk and the secret things  that arise out of it, that's what would take four  months if you were to do it all in one stretch every  time you sat down for a meal or the family got  together for a gathering, something like that?  Not a gathering.  It's the House when they sit down  for supper, yes, they tell these and start pulling the 4925  A. Mathews (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Plant  1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  yuuhlxamtxw apart.  Yes.  It will take about that  long.  And is this kind of teaching limited to meal time?  Mostly, yes.  And when you go to bed.  Now, have you ever heard -- well, I should start this  way:  In your evidence you refer to Vernon Smith, the  Eagle Chief?  Yes.  And he holds what name?  Right now he holds two.  And one of those names is Sakxum higookx?  Yes.  Have you ever heard his territory described at a  Feast?  Not -- not lately, no.  That -- that was being done  before my time.  Remember I just got here too.  When you say before your time, before --  Before I got to be a chief, yes.  Can you recall any occasion on which you heard the  territory of Sakxum higookx described at a Feast?  A   No, I can't.  THE COURT:  Do I have — does Madam Reporter have the spelling  for Sakxum higookx?  MR. PLANT:  One of the plaintiffs, my lord, and I don't have the  number.  THE TRANSLATOR:  It's number 56 on the plaintiffs' list.  THE COURT:  Thank you.  MR. PLANT:  Q   Now, changing the subject again, Mr. Mathews, you gave  evidence about the people who go down to the  smokehouse at Wilson Creek in the summer and the  consequences for the activity at that smokehouse after  Jeffery Morgan died.  You recall telling us that the  fishing stopped at the smokehouse for a month after he  died?  Yes.  Did all of the House members quit their jobs for a  month?  I wasn't talking about jobs.  I was talking about  fishing.  Well, you were talking about fishing?  Yes.  And I think you told us that the fishnets came out for  a month?  Yes.  And all the activity on the territory stopped for a  month?  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q 4926  A. Mathews (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Plant  1  A  2  3  4  Q  5  A  6  Q  7  A  8  9  Q  10  11  A  12  Q  13  A  14  Q  15  16  17  18  A  19  Q  20  21  A  22  23  24  Q  25  26  A  27  28  29  30  31  32  Q  33  34  35  36  37  A  38  39  40  41  Q  42  THE COURT  43  44  A  45  THE COURT  46  A  47  Stopped fishing.  But we have to process what was  already started.  We don't just abandon everything and  leave it there as is.  All right.  That would be stupid if you do that.  So you keep --  Keep the fires going until everything is processed in  a normal -- normal way.  And what about the jobs in Kitwanga at the mill, do  you quit those jobs?  No.  You don't take a month off for them?  No.  You told us that there is a distinctive sign for  identifying fishing fillets.  Do you remember telling  us that your mother cut the fish one way and your wife  cut the fish another?  Yes.  And you also gave evidence that other Gitksan Houses  have distinctive signs.  Do you recall that?  Yes.  Just the very ladies that come, they use our  smokehouse.  I've seen that also.  That's why I said  that, yes.  Can you give me some examples of some of the other  signs?  Some of the signs we worked with -- what's her name  here, George Daniels' wife, Mabel Daniels, the  fishtail would be on the opposite side of what we were  doing.  Mom's own would be on this side.  And when she  did hers, her fishtail was on the opposite side.  And  she does that very regularly for identification.  Is your fish site at Wilson Creek -- I am sorry, is  the smokehouse in the fish site that you have at near  Wilson Creek, is that one of the busiest if not the  busiest smokehouse on the Skeena for the Kitwanga  people?  Yes.  That's what we call it -- like I said, this  place, this whole area is Xsi gwin ixst'aat.  We call  it Ant'ookxw.  A banquet table.  So we welcome  everbody that wants to come to use it.  And I want to make one more reference to Exhibit 366E.  :  Before you do that, do you charge for the use of  this the smokehouse?  No.  :  No charge?  Just when we put up a Feast, they come and through  what we call ant' im hanak or am nigwootxw, k'ots 4927  A. Mathews (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Plant  1 gesxw, these things they put in during the Feast or  2 they exchange something.  3 THE COURT:  Yes, thank you.  4 MR. PLANT:  5 Q   In your evidence you said that everyone lived there in  6 the summer.  All the members of your family, do they  7 all camp out there when you are at the smokehouse or  8 do they go down every evening?  9 A   No.  We camped.  10 Q   For how long?  11 A   During the summer.  12 Q   So you set up tents?  13 A   No.  There is a regular house on the other side of  14 where my mom and dad stays and then we have our own  15 camp set up.  16 Q   Now, I wanted to ask you some more questions about the  17 Tsihl Gwellii territory looking at Exhibit 366E.  It's  18 really only one area that I want to ask you about.  19 Now, Mr. Mathews, in your father's territorial  20 affidavit, which is Exhibit 352, that's at tab 4 of  21 your book, referring to paragraph 12, which contains  22 the description in words of the boundary of the Tsihl  23 Gwellii territory, about halfway down, say 13 or so  24 lines down, I'm referring to a passage that begins the  25 line, quote, "continues south along the west bank of,"  26 and then there is a Gitksan word which I'd ask for  27 pronunciation of, if I could.  Luuman sagan t'saltwit.  28 But I will show it to you, Madam Translator.  29 THE INTERPRETER:  Luuman sagan t'saltwit.  3 0 MR. PLANT:  31 Q   Did you hear that, Mr. Mathews?  32 A   Yes.  33 Q   And in brackets it says, "tributary of Insect Creek  34 unnamed on government maps," close brackets, two, and  35 then there is another Gitksan name.  36 THE INTERPRETER:  Xsi gwin biyoosxw.  37 MR. PLANT:  38 Q   Did you hear that, Mr. Mathews?  39 A   Yes.  40 Q   And in brackets that says "Insect Creek" and my  41 question for you, Mr. Mathews, is whether you --  42 firstly, whether we can locate Insect Creek on this  43 map, and I tell you that there is as the north  44 boundary of the territory on this map marked as  45 belonging to Guxsan, G-u-x-s-a-n.  There is what  46 appears to be a water course marked X-s-u space  47 g-w-i-n space b-i-i-y-o-o-x-w.  Can you pronounce 492E  A. Mathews (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Plant  1  2  THE  INTER  3  MR.  PLANT  4  THE  COURT  5  MR.  PLANT  6  7  THE  COURT  8  MR.  PLANT  9  10  THE  COURT  11  MR.  PLANT  12  THE  COURT  13  MR.  PLANT  14  15  16  THE  COURT  17  MR.  GRANT  18  19  MR.  PLANT  20  MR.  GRANT  21  22  23  THE  COURT  24  MR.  PLANT  25  MR.  GRANT  26  27  THE  COURT  28  MR.  GRANT  29  30  31  32  THE  COURT  33  MR.  GRANT  34  35  36  THE  COURT  37  38  MR.  PLANT  39  40  41  Q  42  43  44  45  MR.  GRANT  46  MR.  PLANT  47  Q  that, Madam Interpreter.  3RETER:  Xsu gwin biiyooxw.  Does your lordship have that?  No, not yet.  Where the arrow, the north arrow is if that were on  the right.  Yes.  The territory which has Guxsan on it is just a few  inches to the left.  Alongside the arrow.  Yes.  Yes.  And the line that I have referred to that has the  words Xsu gwin biiyoosxw on it goes straight at the  arrow.  Yes.  It's also marked by Insect Creek on 349, my lord,  the small map.  If they are the same place.  I am just referring to the affidavit refers to  Insect Creek with the name it's given and that's  marked as Insect Creek on Exhibit 349.  Is it?  Now, where --  Yes.  It's just beyond where An sagan t'saltwit is.  Actually it's easier.  Is it marked as Insect Creek?  Yes.  As Insect Creek.  If you fip it upl right  underneath An sagan, that little triangle, you see  Insect Creek and it's going down, it goes in south of  Cedarvale into the Skeena.  South of Cedarvale?  Well, if you see that triangle where the L is on  349.  You can see right on here.  That is Insect  Creek.  I was looking in the territory of Guxsan.  Are you  two gentlemen talking about the same thing?  Yes, I think we are, my lord, because the way this  map Exhibit 366E is oriented, this is the upper  reaches of Insect Creek that I'm looking at now.  And, well, my first question for you, Mr. Mathews, is:  Is the affidavit correct, the affidavit of your  father, when it says that the boundary line runs along  the north bank of Xsi gwin biiyoosxw?  That's the next phrase after where you stopped.  Sorry, is the affidavit correct? 4929  A. Mathews (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Plant  1  A  2  3  4  5  6  7  Q  8  A  9  10  Q  11  A  12  Q  13  A  14  15  16  Q  17  A  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  Q  25  26  27  28  29  30  A  31  32  Q  33  34  A  35  Q  36  37  38  A  39  40  Q  41  42  MR. GRANT  43  MR. PLANT  44  Q  45  A  46  47  Q  Yes.  Xsi gwin biiyoosxw as you mentioned here where  is it now, just like a highway.  It gives access to  your neighbours' territories.  Guxsan uses this hill  mentioned in his affidavit.  Wii hlengwax mentioned  that on his affidavit.  We mentioned it, because it's  an access road.  And -- sorry?  To all territories.  Yes, it's like a highway.  It  gives you access.  You say it's a highway to your territories?  Yes.  Is it also a boundary of your territory?  Sometimes, yes.  Up later on, because this is just  like I say, it's a highway.  These guys will mention  it, these guys will mention it and we'll mention it.  So when you say --  Just like going up Highway 37 where you live, you  start up Highway 37 up the highway.  That's the  closest I can explain, that Xsi gwin biyoosxw is like  a highway, a trail.  How would you -- what better  words shall I give them except what I have just said.  It's an access to everybody's territory.  Kitwancool  uses it.  Wii hlengwax uses it and we use it.  Now, on my reading of Exhibit 366E Insect Creek is not  a part of the boundary shown on Exhibit 366E, which  you have already told me is and is quite clearly  marked as a draft copy of a map.  Would you agree with  me then that the map should show Insect Creek as a  boundary?  Not on our part.  Like I say, we just mention it as a  highway.  Everybody uses that road, hey.  I thought you told me a minute ago that in the upper  reaches it was a boundary?  Up here at An sagan t'saltwit.  Oh, I see. Can you tell me what length of the creek  is the boundary? How long -- for what length of the  river flow?  Next time I go there I will have a measuring tape and  give you to the nearest inch, if that's what you want.  I am actually more interested in this.  Is it a  hundred yards or --  :  Just a moment.  -- is it a matter of a few miles?  I haven't been through, like I told you, but if you  want to I will go through.  If you haven't been there then I really don't think I 4930  A. Mathews (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Plant  1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  THE COURT  MR. PLANT  THE COURT  A  THE COURT  A  MR. PLANT  Q  need to pursue the matter.  :  Well, are you agreed, Mr. Mathews, that the river or  creek shown on this --  :  366E.  :  -- 366E as being in Guxsan's territory, spelled  X-s-u g-w-i-n b-i-i-y-o-o-s-x-w is Insect Creek?  The creek is there, yes.  :  That's Insect Creek?  Yes.  Now, I want to make one more reference to the  transcript, from your transcript of your evidence in  the trial of your father with the Fisheries Act  prosecution on November 4, 1985, and I'm referring to  page 12 of that transcript.  Now, Mr. Mathews, yesterday I read to you from  page 12 from about line 15 down to line 27 and the  first question in line 15 was:  "Q     Now, you stopped going there when your  grandfather died?  A     Yes."  And so on down to line 27.  And I want to add to that  the evidence that begins at line 28 as follows:  "Q     Your family and your parents  did go back there?  A     Yes."  your mother  And if I may just pause there.  You appreciate that we  are speaking of Wilson Creek in this context?  A   Yes.  Q   And you were asked that question and you gave that  answer?  A   Yes.  What I was referring, we went back to fishing  but we didn't live there.  Q   Yes.  Okay.  Well, let's carry on.  Line 31:  "Q     And when was that?  A     That was '81, '82 when I went to Aktii Hiik,  Geoffrey Morgan.  There was too many people  picking on mom in Kitwanga because we don't  have any fishing sites there, so I went to  Geoffrey, Aktii Hiik, and I said I want to  build a smokehouse at Wilson Creek.  I went  to ask his permission and he said, 'Yeah. 4931  A. Mathews (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Plant  1 Where are you going to build it?' I told him  2 the place and he said, 'Okay, that's good',  3 he says, 'It belongs to you now', he says,  4 'You're the head of that.'  Then he asked  5 me, he said, 'Where are you going to fish?'  6 So I selected a little further downstream;  7 we called it Gwingabuus.  I told him we were  8 going to fish in that fishing site called  9 Gwingabuus and he said, 'That's good', he  10 says, 'but I want to keep one fishing site  11 for myself, he said.  That was Miinhlamgoot  12 as we call it."  13  14 A   Yes.  15 Q   You were asked that question and you gave that answer?  16 A   Yes.  17 Q   And that answer was true?  18 A   Yes.  19 Q   Mr. Mathews, I asked you this yesterday, but I want to  20 be sure I have it correct.  Between 1949 when Charles  21 Smith died and 1981, 1982 when the events that we have  22 just referred to took place, did you go back to the  23 Wilson Creek area to do any fishing?  24 A   Yes.  25 Q   And when was that?  26 A  Well, we fished off and on all summer, yes.  27 Q   In what years?  28 A  Mostly all the years.  29 Q   All the years between 1949 and 1981, '82?  30 A   Yes.  31 Q   And you say even though -- well, as I understand it,  32 what your evidence is that you had to ask for  33 permission?  34 A  All of us have to.  Like I said, you don't go there  35 just because you are a high chief and third -- four  36 high chiefs there.  Each one of them has to go and ask  37 the head man, yes.  You ask for permission.  3 8 Q   And —  39 A   Not really to say, well, I want to go there and give  40 you -- like you just tell them, well, I am going there  41 tomorrow I will be using so and so site, and he says  42 you're granted right away.  It's not that you are  43 going to get turned down, but you just told him what  44 your intentions were.  45 Q   So you don't -- it's not a question of asking  46 permission so much as telling him what your intentions  47 are? 4932  A. Mathews (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Macaulay  1  A  2  Q  3  4  A  5  6  7  Q  8  A  9  Q  10  A  11  MR. PLANT  12  13  THE COURT  14  15  CROSS-EXA  16  Q  17  18  A  19  Q  20  21  A  22  Q  23  24  25  A  26  27  Q  28  A  29  30  Q  31  A  32  Q  33  A  34  35  Q  36  37  A  38  Q  39  A  40  41  42  Q  43  A  44  45  46  Q  47  Yes.  And he agrees to it.  Did you do that annually between 1949 and 1981 every  time that you wanted to go down there?  We usually -- what happens during that time, my  uncle -- my grandfather, I should say, Wallace would  say you guys want to fish there, go ahead this summer.  And did you personally fish there yourself?  Not me, no.  I see.  Who was it that fished there in those years?  My mother and my father.  :   All right.  I have no further questions, my lord.  Thank you very much, Mr. Mathews.  :  Mr. Macaulay.  EXAMINATION BY MR. MACAULAY:  Mr. Mathews, do you know about the Northern Native  Fishing Corporation?  No.  Are you a member of the Gitksan Wet'suwet'en Tribal  Council?  No.  You hadn't heard that the Gitksan Wet'suwet'en Tribal  Council had joined two other Tribal Councils to  acquire fishboats and licences on the coast?  No.  I no longer have any interest in commercial  fishing.  But you haven't even heard of this?  I heard them talk about it, but I got no idea what  it's all about.  You took no interest in it?  No.  I am finished with commercial fishing.  When did you finish with commercial fishing?  Like I said, when I started in 1971, December 20 --  September 20.  Have you applied for or been given commercial fishing  licences since 1971?  No.  Well, in 1982, for instance, was your father fishing?  My father-in-law, yes, I helped him one year because  he had a broken leg.  That's why I had to go with him  for about a month, I think.  What year was that?  I forgot.  But I know I went out there after I went  back to work.  So I had to help my father-in-law Cecil  Lewis.  I am showing you a personal commercial fishing  licence.  The form says it expires December 31, 1982 4933  A. Mathews (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Macaulay  1 and it refers to an Arthur Mathews.  Is that you?  2 A   I was just wondering because there is two of us.  3 Q   Yes.  Well —  4 A   I think if this is '82 I went fishing with my  5 father-in-law.  Yes, 131 is my band number, yes.  6 Q   Is that your signature?  7 A   Yes.  8 MR. MACAULAY:   Could that be marked, my lord?  9 THE COURT:  Yes.  10 THE REGISTRAR:  That will be Exhibit 373, my lord.  11  12 (EXHIBIT 373:  Fishing licence of Arthur Mathews  13 expiring December 31, 1982)  14  15 MR. MACAULAY:  Perhaps I could hand up a copy to your lordship,  16 a photocopy of this original, my lord.  17 Q   And in 1986 did you obtain a fishing licence to take  18 spawn on sea plants on the coast?  19 A   I don't remember if I ever did take.  20 Q   If you ever did.  Well, I'm showing you a -- this is a  21 photocopy.  It's fairly clear and I -- perhaps we can  22 get the original of a --  23 MR. GRANT:  This document, has it been listed?  Because I was  24 not aware of this document before.  25 MR. MACAULAY:  My instructions are that it's our documents 6843,  26 my lord.  I'll check that.  2 7 THE COURT:  Thank you.  2 8 MR. MACAULAY:  But I think —  29 MR. GRANT:  Thank you.  30 THE COURT:  Well, if you say it's listed, you may proceed.  Or  31 do you want to stand your -- delay your  32 cross-examination?  33 MR. MACAULAY:  Well, I don't mark every document myself.  I have  34 an associate too.  I see a number on this and notes  35 made for me by others.  36 THE COURT:  All right.  Go ahead.  37 MR. MACAULAY:  I believe that this document is on a list  38 published perhaps a year ago.  39 THE COURT:  Yes.  All right.  Well, if you believe that it was  40 listed, you may proceed.  If you are in some doubt, I  41 am sure you will want to delay your cross-examination  42 on that point.  There is your answer.  43 MS. RUSSELL:  This is supplementary document December 13 and for  44 your friend it was dated May, 1987.  4 5 MR. MACAULAY:  May '87, my lord.  46 MR. GRANT:  Thank you.  4 7 THE COURT:  Go ahead. 4934  A. Mathews (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Macaulay  1 MR. MACAULAY:  I am cautious about making assertions, my lord.  2 I had some reason to believe that this had been  3 marked --  4 Q   There is this photocopy of a document, Mr. Mathews,  5 and it appears to have been issued in 1986 because on  6 the face of it it says it's valid from April 21, I  7 think it is, to April 30, 1986.  And it has a  8 signature at the bottom?  9 A   Yes.  10 Q   Left-hand -- right-hand corner.  Is that your  11 signature?  12 A   No.  It's not my band number either.  That's my  13 father.  14 Q   That's your father?  15 A   Yes.  25.  16 Q   Your father is band number is 31, is it?  17 A   No.  Mine's 131.  18 Q   I am sorry.  Your father's band number is 25?  19 A   Yes, I think it is.  20 Q   Now, you -- do you know anything about that licence?  21 A   No.  22 Q   I'd have to ask him about that?  23 A   Yes.  24 Q   I will show you another one.  This is document 6401,  25 so that would have been issued about May of 1987 on a  26 list in May of '87.  It's an Indian food fishing  27 licence and it's for the Skeena River gillnet area,  28 area four.  That's on the coast, isn't it?  29 A   Yes.  30 Q   And there is a signature at the bottom.  Is that  31 yours?  32 A   Yes.  33 Q   And that's apparently issued in Prince Rupert in July  34 '82?  35 A   Yes.  36 Q   And was that a case where you were doing some food  37 fishing while you were on the coast?  38 A   I wasn't down the coast.  I went down with the  39 intention to catch some fish to process, but I wasn't  40 doing any commercial fishing, I think, or maybe I was,  41 too, but like I said, I usually go down and help my  42 father-in-law to do some fishing.  43 Q   Yes.  Well —  4 4 A  And we —  45 Q   The —  46 A  We processed some fish, yes.  47 Q   You processed some fish on the coast? 4935  A. Mathews (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Macaulay  1 A   Yes.  2 Q   For your own family's use?  3 A   Yes.  4 Q   Sometimes called food fish --  5 A   Yes.  6 Q   -- in fishing?  Could that be marked as the next  7 exhibit?  8 A   I can't see any other word like food fish.  It can't  9 be nonsense fishing or --  10 Q   Well, there is commercial fishing and food fishing.  11 They are two distinctive things, aren't they?  12 A   Yes.  13 MR. GRANT:  Under the Fisheries Act they are two distinct  14 things, my lord.  They may not be to the witness.  15 THE COURT:  All right.  16 MR. MACAULAY:  I don't think that is evidence, my lord.  17 THE COURT:  Exhibit 374.  18 THE REGISTRAR:  Yes, my lord.  19  20 (EXHIBIT 374:   Indian food fishing licence for Skeena  21 River)  22  2 3 MR. MACAULAY:  24 Q   You did spend some time in the coast in 1982 then?  25 A   Yes.  26 Q   Were you a commercial fisherman in 1967?  27 A   '67?  28 Q   Yes.  29 A   Yes.  30 Q   And do you recall the strike in that year in 1967?  31 A   Yes.  There was two or three strikes when I was  32 fishing, yes.  33 Q   And your grandfather Wallace Morgan who was at that  34 time was actually with the Native Brotherhood?  35 A   I don't know.  I can't remember.  He might have been,  36 yes.  37 Q   He might have been, but you don't know whether he was  38 or not?  3 9 A   No.  I don't know.  40 Q   He was a commercial fisherman in 1967, Wallace Morgan?  41 A   I would assume so, yes.  Because I don't know.  42 Q   Well —  43 A   I fished at another cannery.  I fished for B.C.  44 Packers and he was fishing for another company.  So --  45 I don't run up and down to see what he is up to.  46 Q   And Henry Tait -- Henry Tait is now Ax tii hiikw?  47 A   Yes. 4936  A. Mathews (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Macaulay  1 Q   And he is a commercial fisherman?  2 A   Yes.  I have already stated that, yes.  3 Q   And he has been for many years?  4 A   Yes.  5 Q   And Jeffery Morgan during his lifetime was a  6 commercial fisherman?  7 A   Yes.  8 Q   And did you know Samuel Derrick, one of your  9 ancestors, I suppose?  10 A   No.  Not really.  I was too small then.  11 Q   Did you know Charles Derrick who used to be Ax tii  12 hiikw?  13 A   Charlie Derrick.  I heard the names, but I was too  14 small.  15 Q   You don't know whether or not they were commercial  16 fishermen?  17 A   Everybody was.  It was part of our system.  Everybody  18 went commercial fishing once in awhile.  And like I  19 said, we hand down our practices.  We know each rock.  20 We know all the snags and this is just part of our  21 adaawk after.  We know all the habits of the fishing  22 and when they come.  All landmarks.  23 Q   You are talking about landmarks on the coast?  24 A   Yes.  It's just like a trail.  25 Q   Yes.  26 A   Out there.  We don't need a map or a compass.  27 Q   And in order to be successful as a commercial  2 8 fisherman you have to have that knowledge?  29 A   Yes.  30 Q   And you learn it from your father and your father  31 learns it from his father or uncle and so on?  32 A   Yes.  Yes.  Hand it down.  33 Q   You are a member of the Kitwanga Band Council at the  34 present time?  35 A   Yes.  36 Q   How long have you been a member in this last -- I know  37 you gave evidence that you left the Council in 1977  38 and I think you said you went got back to the Council  39 in 1985, is that correct?  4 0 A   Yes somewhere around there.  41 Q   And you have been on the Council since then?  42 A   Yes.  43 Q   Have you taken part in discussions with the Department  44 of Indian Affairs concerning devolution of the  45 government's functions to the band?  46 A   That's a different area.  Like I said, we work in  47 committees.  Mine was strictly in -- right now it's a 4937  A. Mathews (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Macaulay  1 case and that's the legal committee, that works in  2 this area.  3 Q You have heard about that?  4 A Yes.  5 Q You have heard about the Gitksan Wet'suwet'en  6 Government Commission?  7 A Yes.  8 Q It's a group?  9 A I have heard about it.  10 Q A group of all of the Band's Council?  11 A Yes.  12 Q Including Kitwanga?  13 A I don't know about Kitwanga.  We speak about ours,  14 yes.  15 Q Well, Vernon Smith is involved, isn't he?  Isn't he in  16 Kitwancool?  17 A Yes, he lives there.  Yes.  But he belongs to our  18 village.  19 Q Is Vernon Smith on the Kitwancool Band Council?  20 A Yes.  21 Q You say he lives in your village.  He lives in  22 Kitwanga?  23 A No.  He gives in Kitwancool, but he is one of our  24 chiefs in Kitwanga.  25 Q Oh, he is a Kitwanga chief?  26 A Yes.  27 Q But he is active with the Kitwancool Band Council,  28 isn't he?  29 A Yes.  I heard about him, yes.  30 Q In fact, he is the chief council right now?  31 A Yes.  Right now, I think he is.  32 Q While you were during your many years on the Band  33 Council, do you remember the Band Council being  34 concerned with the -- at location of hunting permits  35 among band members?  36 A Yeah.  I heard about it, yes.  I might have sat in a  37 couple of them.  38 Q You sat in on a couple?  39 A I think so.  4 0 Q And the band council, the Kitwanga Band Council  41 concerns itself with health services?  42 A Yes.  43 Q But that's not your particular interest?  44 A No.  Not at this time, no.  45 Q What sort of health facilities are there at Kitwanga?  46 A Just that photo somebody showed me the other day about  47 our health stations as I referred to as C.S.R. 493E  A. Mathews (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Macaulay  1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  station.  Q   You referred to it as C.H.R.  What does it stand for?  THE COURT:  C.S.R.  A   C.S.R.  MR. MACAULAY:  Q   C.S.R.  Sorry.  A   I don't know.  That's the name that given every  meeting.  I never bothered asking.  I just know it's a  health centre where nurses come and immunize children  and dentists come in there.  Do doctors come there?  Pardon?  Do doctors go to that health centre, too?  Not now.  Not anymore?  No.  We got a doctor living up in the Kitwanga Valley  area.  Dr. Hetland.  MR. MACAULAY:   My lord, I see it's 11:15.  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  THE COURT:  All right.  Thank you.  (PROCEEDINGS ADJOURNED PURSUANT TO MORNING BREAK)  I hereby certify the foregoing to be  a true and accurate transcript of the  proceedings herein to the best of my  skill and ability.  Laara Yardley,  Official Reporter,  United Reporting Service Ltd. 4939  1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  A. Mathews (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Macaulay  (PROCEEDINGS RECONVENED AT 11:35 A.M.)  THE REGISTRAR:  Order in court.  Ready to proceed, my lord.  THE COURT:  Mr. Macaulay.  MR. MACAULAY:  Q   Mr. Mathews, the -- there used to be what was called a  grease trail leading from Kitwanga up north to the  Nass River; is that right?  Yes, I've heard.  Have you ever been on that trail?  A  Q  A  Q  No.  And the people who lived at Kitwanga used to go up the  trail in about March of every year to fish for  oolichan?  A   Yes.  Q   But in your lifetime that hasn't been done?  A   No.  We drive up there now.  Q   You drive up to the Nass now?  A   Yes.  Q   And you still do fishing for oolichan?  A   Yes.  Q   You yourself do that?  A   No, I drive my dad up there.  He's got relatives there  like I said that he just go there and get it.  Q   And he brings back supply for your family, does he?  A   Yes.  THE COURT:  You drive up from Terrace, do you?  THE WITNESS:  Yes, both ways.  From 37 all the way to Kitwancool  and back down the other way.  There's a road going.  THE COURT:  Oh, yes, I'm sorry.  You can go up through  Kitwancool that way or you can go down to Terrace and  up to New Aiyansh?  THE WITNESS:  Yes.  THE COURT:  Yes.  Thank you.  MR. MACAULAY:  Q   And there used to be a fort at Kitwanga, didn't there?  A   Yes.  Q   There is still a mound near Kitwanga where the old  fort was?  A   Yes.  Q   And the reason for the fort was that there were raids  or war parties coming down from the north and also  from the coast coming from the west into the Gitksan  territory?  A   Yes.  Q   And the look-out post that you mentioned earlier in 4940  A. Mathews (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Macaulay  1 your evidence, that was near Wilson Creek, was it?  2 A   Yes, it was right at Wilson Creek, yes.  3 Q   At Wilson Creek?  4 A   Yes.  5 Q   And the look-outs were to spot either Tsimxsan or  6 Nishga coming up the Skeena River?  7 A   Yeah, and Haidas.  8 Q   And Haida.  And you have heard that there used to be a  9 lot of warfare along the Skeena River?  10 A   Yes, I heard about some, yeah.  11 Q   There was a famous chief called Laa Geek from the  12 coast.  Have you heard of him?  13 A   No.  14 Q   And do your adaawk of your house refer to -- do any of  15 your adaawk refer to the wars that were fought along  16 the Skeena River and the raids that took place along  17 the Skeena River?  18 A   No, I was never informed of that, no.  19 Q   Have you been to the site of the old fort?  20 A   Yes.  21 Q   And have you seen a photograph of the model that  22 somebody has made of the fort?  23 A   Yes, I've seen the model.  24 Q   And that was a Kitwanga fort?  It was the inhabitants  25 of Kitwanga who built that fort?  26 A   Yeah, Gitwingax, Kitwanga.  27 Q   Gitwingax.  Sorry.  28 Now, on your -- and perhaps the witness can be  29 shown the Plaintiffs' book of documents.  It's tab 1.  30 I'd like you to take -- it will assist you, I think,  31 if you look at the genealogy of Tenimgyet.  Exhibit  32 346.  33 MR. GRANT:  The genealogy.  34 THE REGISTRAR:  346.  35 MR. MACAULAY:  36 Q   346.  That shows that the name Ax tii hiikw has been  37 held continuously from the last century at least until  38 the present time, doesn't it?  39 A   Yes.  4 0 Q   But the name Tenimgyet doesn't appear in that same  41 continuous way, does it?  42 A   No.  Like I said, that disease wiped them out, and  43 there is just pretty well children left, so that's why  44 they had a meeting of sorts and they choose this Ax  45 tii hiikw.  Was about, like you say, a sole survivor  46 out of all of these other chiefs that are all dead, so  47 then his name was put into the head of the house as 4941  A. Mathews (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Macaulay  1 a -- as a, you might say, a chairman to look after our  2 particular tribe, yes.  3 Q   In the old days the house lived in one very large long  4 house; is that right?  5 A   Yes.  6 Q   And there was one head chief?  7 A   One, and four of his advisors beside him you might  8 say.  9 Q   Four other chiefs?  10 A   Three.  Yeah, four with him.  11 Q   Four with him.  And the head chief used to be, in the  12 days of the long house, used to be Ax tii hiikw?  13 A   Tenimgyet.  14 Q   It used to be Tenimgyet?  15 A   Yes.  16 Q   And when did that change?  17 A   Until the disease in -- I don't know what year could  18 be, but it was around 1800's or so or late somewhere  19 around in there.  That -- this is the way we were  20 taught about these things.  That's why the change took  21 place, was that very reason.  The disease, like I  22 said, was -- just left almost children, women and  23 children left.  24 Q   Well, there was always an Ax tii hiikw or at least  25 since -- on this I guess page three of the genealogy  26 you can see an Ax tii hiikw who died in 1895?  27 A   Yes.  2 8 Q   And presumably there were people who had that name  29 before him?  30 A   Yes.  31 Q   Before him.  Yes.  And there have been Ax tii hiikw  32 right down to the present time?  33 A   Yes.  34 Q   Charlie Derrick was one, and Wallace Morgan and  35 Geoffrey Morgan, and the present one, that's Mr. Tait?  36 A   Yes.  37 Q   So there were always suitable candidates for that  3 8 name?  39 A   Yes.  Like I said, they migrated.  And there was three  40 of them came over, that Bii lax ha, and Ax tii hiikw,  41 Biis hoon, yes.  There has been -- that name has been  42 with us for a long time, yes.  43 Q   Well, how long has the name Ax tii hiikw been with  44 Tenimgyet?  45 A   Since -- I don't know.  There's no date given to these  46 things.  All we know is it's been there for centuries.  47 4942  A. Mathews (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Macaulay  1 Q   For centuries?  2 A   Yes.  3 Q   Yes.  And just before white people came to the Upper  4 Skeena it was Tenimgyet who was the head chief of the  5 long house?  6 A   Yes.  7 Q   Now, why was it or do you know why it was that  8 although there were always suitable candidates to take  9 the name Ax tii hiikw there weren't suitable  10 candidates to take the name Tenimgyet?  11 A   Because he was the head chief, and this reason why my  12 grandfather, three of them, says that this is the  13 reason they left it at rest, you might say, for a  14 while, until all of us -- when I say all of us, the  15 house -- started regenerating and the rightful  16 successor would take the place.  17 Q   When Sarah Morgan was Tenimgyet, was she -- this is  18 the one shown on page 2 of the genealogy.  It shows  19 that she was born in 1861.  Now, when she was  20 Tenimgyet, was she the head chief of the house?  21 A   She had the name, but he had her son.  22 Q   Well, her son was Wallace Morgan?  23 A   Yes, he was indeed.  24 Q   Why didn't he become Tenimgyet?  25 A   I have explained that.  If you were listening to me,  26 you heard that I said that his intention of taking the  27 name Tenimgyet at this feast, and Luuxoon announced  28 the name as Ax tii hiikw, so with great respect to  29 this chief he accepted the name of Ax tii hiikw, yes.  30 Q   But he didn't become the head chief of the house,  31 Wallace Morgan, when he took the name Ax tii hiikw?  32 A   He did, yes.  33 Q   He did?  34 A   Yes.  He held that name.  That's why we put it in  35 today as that, that we accepted that, and the people  36 at the time at the feast accepted his position, yes.  37 Q   Well, how does Charlie Smith fit into this?  He took a  3 8 name?  39 A   Yes.  40 Q   He took Bii lax ha?  41 A   Yes.  42 Q   And as I understood your evidence, he became the head  43 man of the house?  44 A   Not really head man, carekeeper.  He looked after it.  45 When I say look after it, he -- he held the name Bii  46 lax ha, yes, to live right there on the territory.  47 And when Wallace Morgan wanted it back, they just 4943  A. Mathews (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Macaulay  1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  turned it over with that at the feast, yes.  Q   When Wallace Morgan wanted the name Ax tii hiikw, he  turned it over?  A   No, he had that.  Q   He already had that?  A   Yes.  Q   Did he turn over the name Tenimgyet to Wallace Morgan?  A   No, Wallace Morgan's mother had that already.  Q   Yes.  Well, what name did Charles Smith turn over  there?  A   Bii lax ha.  Q   Bii lax ha.  And did Charlie Smith take care of the  name Tenimgyet?  A   In what way you're talking about taking care of it?  Q   Well, I'm using your terminology.  We've heard  evidence from you and from other witnesses that in  some circumstances somebody becomes caretaker, taking  care of a name, until a suitable candidate becomes old  enough or experienced enough.  Did he take care of the  name, that is, did Charlie Smith take care of the name  Tenimgyet?  A   No, Mrs. Morgan held the name, and Charlie Smith had  Bii lax ha, and that's the way it worked, yes.  Q   When she died, when Mrs. Morgan, Sarah Morgan, died,  did Charlie Smith take care of the name Tenimgyet?  A   No, it went to Geoffrey Morgan.  Q   On your genealogy on page 1 under Geoffrey Morgan it  doesn't show here.  I see the name Geoffrey Morgan,  but I don't see the name Tenimgyet.  A  Well, if it's not there, it should have been.  GRANT:  I just want to note, my lord, not all names, of  course, Indian names are put under the names of these  people, and it's not intended to be complete in that  sense.  You say Geoffrey Morgan on page 1 of the genealogy  should be shown as Tenimgyet?  WITNESS:  Yes.  COURT:  Or he could be shown as Tenimgyet?  WITNESS:  He should have been.  COURT:  As well as Ax tii hiikw?  WITNESS:  Yes.  MACAULAY:  Q   So did he have two names at the same time or did he  give up his name Ax tii hiikw when he took Tenimgyet?  A   No, he didn't have it.  You see, his brother was still  alive, if you look at that.  Q   Wallace Morgan?  MR.  THE COURT  THE  THE  THE  THE  THE  MR. 4944  A. Mathews (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Macaulay  1 A   Yes.  2 Q   Yes.  3 A  And he was Ax tii hiikw.  Until the death of Wallace,  4 then Geoffrey took the name Ax tii hiikw, but before  5 that he had Tenimgyet.  6 Q   When he was Tenimgyet, when Geoffrey was Tenimgyet, he  7 was not the head chief?  8 A   No, not at that time.  His brother, his older brother  9 was there.  10 Q   And when he took the name from Wallace Morgan, he took  11 the name Ax tii hiikw from Wallace?  12 A   Yes.  13 Q   Because -- all right.  At that time did he give up the  14 name Tenimgyet?  15 A   He gave it to me.  16 Q   That's when you got the name?  17 A   Yes.  18 Q   And you became head chief?  19 A   Yes.  20 Q   Well, what role did Charles Smith have during the  21 1930's and 40's?  He was a very important man in your  22 house, wasn't he?  23 A   Yes.  He was the oldest.  He was the one that taught  24 us how to -- all our songs and our boundaries.  And  25 Geoffrey and them were there.  They were right on the  26 territory.  27 Q   But he wasn't the head chief?  28 A   No, he just like a wise guy, a guy with wisdom, that  29 were teaching the people that were coming in, yes.  30 Q   Why was it Charles Smith who applied for the trapline  31 on the house's territory?  32 A   I wouldn't know.  That's too far ahead of my time.  33 That's 1926.  There might have been a reason.  I don't  34 know.  35 Q   Charles Smith wasn't a member of your house?  36 A   No.  I've already stated that, yes.  37 Q   And he wasn't a member of your clan?  He wasn't a wolf  38 clan, was he?  39 A   No.  But through amnigwootxw, I explained that, that  40 he resumed that position, and through amnigwootxw he  41 had every right to be there like Richard Willis -- and  42 Willis today.  43 Q   You mean he had the right to use the territory?  44 A   Yes.  45 Q   But that didn't give him the right to take a name?  46 A   He had to take the name to be recognized.  47 Q   You've heard of Steven Morgan? 4945  A. Mathews (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Macaulay  1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  MR.  MR.  MR.  MR.  MR.  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  THE  MR.  THE  MR.  THE  MR.  A   I've heard the name, yes, mentioned.  Q   Well, that's Wallace's father, isn't it?  A   Yes.  Q   And you've heard that Wallace got a large part of  Steven Morgan's trapline?  I've heard about it, yes.  And then Wallace's son, Richard Morgan, got Wallace's  trapline?  Yes.  Did you ever see Wallace Morgan's will?  Not -- no.  Did you ever hear of it?  Yes.  Richard --  MACAULAY:  And did you know that Wallace Morgan bequeathed  to Richard Morgan his trapline?  GRANT:  Just a moment, my lord.  I'm not certain to what my  friend is referring, but if he's referring to the  documents that I have seen on the list of documents,  this is an unexecuted document that appears to be in  the form of a will.  MACAULAY:  I'm not showing any document to the witness.  GRANT:  No, I'm not asking.  But he's calling — he's  referring to a will and a bequeathing by a will, and  the only document I have seen is an unexecuted  document, which I don't think is -- was a will at all.  If there's something else that was executed, then he  could at least advise me.  I'm not saying to show  anything to the witness, but he could let me know.  But that's the only document I know of.  In other  words, there is no executed -- my understanding from  the review of the Federal Crown documents is that  there was no executed will.  MACAULAY:  That's not my understanding at all, my lord.  I  understand there was and is an executed will, and the  documents my friend refers to clearly shows that.  Where it is?  I'm asking about this witness's  knowledge of these matters.  COURT:  I think you can pursue his knowledge.  MACAULAY:  Okay.  COURT:  I think the use of the word "bequeath" implied that  there was a testamentary disposition, although that  word may be usable, I suppose, in some other context.  I'm not sure about that.  MACAULAY:  I'm referring to a testamentary disposition.  COURT:  Yes.  All right.  Thank you.  You can test the  witness's knowledge in those matters.  MACAULAY: 4946  A. Mathews (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Macaulay  1 Q   Did you know whether or not Wallace in a will left his  2 trapline -- lawyers call it bequeathed -- made over  3 his trapline, gave his trapline to his son Richard?  4 A   I heard about it, yes.  Richard told me.  5 Q   Richard told you?  6 A   Yes.  7 Q   Now, you've referred in your evidence a couple of days  8 ago and again this morning to Olander, who was  9 prospecting on part of your territory?  10 A   That's what we were told, yes.  11 Q   Did you know that whatever he actually did Olander had  12 a registered trapline covering part of your territory?  13 A   Yes, and you've mentioned Charles Smith registered.  14 My grandfather told me that they thought that was  15 registered, and meanwhile the fumbling of your  16 department, or I don't know whose department, that  17 was --  18 Q   Somebody's.  19 A   -- then in Olander's name after it appeared.  And  20 there is still no explanation right today how that  21 became about, why the bumbling of somebody's  22 department did that and give it away without our  23 knowledge.  It's just outright stealing to us.  24 Q   Well, after Olander died have you heard that the  25 Department of Indian Affairs was asked to buy it from  26 the estate?  27 A  We were told that, yes.  2 8 Q   And more recently a man named Egan appears as the --  29 has appeared as the registered owner?  3 0 A   I don't know.  31 Q   Or holder?  32 A   No.  33 Q   You don't know who?  34 A   No.  But like I said, you guys give it away and steal  35 it.  And them guys that have it, I don't know how give  36 you guys permission or consent to do that.  As far as  37 I'm concerned, it's ours.  38 THE COURT:  How do you spell Olander, please?  3 9    MR. MACAULAY:  O-1-a-n-d-er.  4 0    THE COURT:  Thank you.  41 MR. MACAULAY:  42 Q   In Gitwingax there is elections every year for the  43 band council?  44 A   Yes.  45 Q   And all the band members are entitled to vote at those  46 elections?  47 A   Yes, sometimes, yes.  The ones that are living on the 4947  A. Mathews (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Macaulay  1 reserve.  I don't know the full detail about that, but  2 yes, they have elections.  3 Q The band members who live on the reserve?  4 A Yes.  5 Q And most of them vote so far as you know?  6 A Yes.  7 Q And sometimes there are contested elections?  8 A Yes, sometimes.  All elections.  Like a recount or  9 whatever.  All elections.  10 Q I'm talking about the recent elections in the 1980's.  11 A Yes.  12 Q From time to time there are more candidates than there  13 are places on the council?  14 A Whatever, yes.  15 Q So you have to have an election?  16 A Yes.  17 Q And you have been elected in all the years since 1985  18 up to the present time?  19 A Yes.  20 Q On the band council how many committees are there?  21 You mentioned that you are, I think, the chairman of  22 the education committee?  23 A One of the chairmans, yes.  There's two of us.  Me and  24 Gary Williams head up the education, yes.  25 Q What other committees are there?  26 A Then we have the housing committee.  27 Q Yes.  28 A And then we have the legal committee, which deals with  29 politics.  30 Q Yes.  31 A And then we have the -- what you call an economic  32 development committee.  33 Q Would the -- when the decision was -- well, if a  34 decision was made by the band council to allow a  35 sawmill to be built on the reserve, would that come  36 under the economic development --  37 A Yes.  38 Q -- committee?  39 A Yes.  40 Q Yes.  And does the economic committee still deal with  41 these sawmill owners?  42 A Yes.  From the direction from our chiefs, yes.  43 Q That's the point of contact with the owners?  44 A Yes.  45 Q And when the band council meets, they -- are minutes  46 of the meetings kept?  47 A Yes. 4948  A. Mathews (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Macaulay  1  Q  2  3  A  4  5  6  7  Q  8  9  A  10  Q  11  12  A  13  Q  14  15  16  A  17  Q  18  19  20  A  21  22  23  Q  24  A  25  Q  26  27  A  28  29  Q  30  A  31  Q  32  A  33  Q  34  A  35  Q  36  A  37  Q  38  39  A  40  41  42  Q  43  A  44    ]  MR. GRANT  45  46    ]  MR. MACAU  47  Q  And they're circulated to the members of the  committee?  Yes, it's posted right in the band office.  Anybody's  welcome to see the minutes of the meeting and what's  been carried or defeated on the floor.  It's all  there.  And you get a copy of the minutes because you're a  councillor?  Yes.  So that you're generally aware of the activities of  the band council outside the field of education?  Yes.  Now, does your committee deal with the -- your  education committee, does it deal with such matters as  the curriculum?  Parts of it, yes.  Yes.  Apart from the curriculum, that is, what is to  be taught to the children in school, what other  matters does it deal with?  The whole running, day-to-day running of the school.  You see, we just sit there, and we have staff that  looks after what you're talking about.  We have --  You have employed staff?  Yes.  Right.  And who is it -- who is the employee who deals  with education?  Right now Darlene Morgan.  That's our education  co-ordinator.  It's not on there.  Is she not a member of your house?  No.  There's lots of Morgans here.  Frog Clan.  Is she a member of another house?  Yes.  And she takes direction from the education committee?  Yes, from -- then report back to us.  And during your career, long career, as a band  councillor did you ever deal with Simon Muldoe?  No, I don't remember.  I heard the name.  I know he  was in the office at one time, yes.  I know who he is.  He's from Hazelton, yes.  He is a chief from Hazelton, isn't he?  Yes.  :  Well, he's deceased, my lord.  I don't know if he's  a chief, but he's deceased.  uAY:  I'm told he is deceased, my lord. 4949  A. Mathews (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Macaulay  1 He was a chief from Hazelton?  2 A A chief.  What do you mean, chief councillor or --  3 Q Well, a chief of a house.  4 A -- a hereditary chief?  5 Q Yes, a hereditary chief.  6 A I don't know about that, no.  7 Q You don't know about that?  8 A No, I don't know anything about that.  9 Q And he was the district manager at Hazelton?  10 A Yes.  11 Q He ran the DIAND operation?  12 A You might say he was a puppet from the head office  13 here in Vancouver, yes.  14 Q Oh.  15 A He didn't make the final decisions.  16 Q No, no.  Did you yourself ever deal with him on band  17 council matters?  18 A I'm just trying to think.  We deal with a lot of  19 things, but I just can't remember if we dealt with  20 him.  I know we dealt with Victor.  21 Q Victor Robinson?  22 A Yes.  23 Q He was also a district chief -- a district head at  24 Hazelton?  25 A Yes.  26 MR. GRANT:  District manager.  2 7    MR. MACAULAY:  28 Q Distract manager.  I stand corrected.  29 Do you know whether or not Victor Robinson had a  30 name in his house?  31 A No, I can't tell you that.  32 Q I take it you didn't see either Simon Muldoe or Victor  33 Robinson at any feast?  34 A No, I didn't.  I'm sorry to say I didn't.  No, I don't  35 go to Gitanmaaxs feasts.  36 Q You don't go to Gitanmaaxs feasts?  37 A No.  38 Q You go to feasts at Kitwancool?  39 A Yes.  40 Q They're very closely connected?  41 A There's three villages, the western villages, yes.  42 Q Have you ever heard of the Kitwancool trapline, one  43 big trapline for -- registered in the name of the  44 Kitwancool Band?  45 A No.  I heard about them owning a big trap, but I don't  46 know anything about it.  I don't know the context of  47 it, how they run it, no. 4950  A. Mathews (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Macaulay  Re-exam by Mr. Grant  Well, you know Fred Johnson?  Yes.  He is a very prominent chief in Gitwingax?  Yes.  And he originally comes from Kitwancool, doesn't he?  So I hear, yes.  But he lived -- all my lifetime he's  been in Gitwingax, yes.  And you have not heard of any dispute between himself  and the Kitwancool over the question of traplines in  the Kitwancool territory?  No, I don't.  I have no knowledge of that, no.  1  Q  2  A  3  Q  4  A  5  Q  6  A  7  8  Q  9  10  11  A  12  MR.  MACAU  13  14  THE  COURT  15  16  RE-I  e:xamin.  17  Q  18  19  20  21  22  A  23  Q  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  A  31  Q  32  A  33  Q  34  35  A  36  MR.  GRANT  37  38  MR.  PLANT  39  THE  COURT  40  41  MR.  GRANT  42  Q  43  44  A  45  Q  46  47  A  jAY:  Those are my questions for this witness,  you, Mr. Mathews.  Thank you.  Mr. Grant.  Thank  VTION BY MR. GRANT:  The Plaintiffs' document book is in front of the  witness.  On Friday you were asked by Mr. Plant about  the location of the Wilson Creek smokehouse, Xsi gwin  ixstaat, in relationship to Xsi gwin ixstaat Indian  Reserve Number 3.  Do you recall that?  Yes.  And you were informed -- you were referred to a  document, being the affidavit of Glen Williams, and in  the Defendants' document book it's at tab 12 --  sorry -- Exhibit 364, which lists nine reserves,  including Xsi gwin ixstaat.  Now, firstly, is that  name Xsi gwin ixstaat got any relation to the name  that you have for part of that area?  Yes.  Can you explain that relation?  This Xsi gwin ixstaat relation?  In what way?  Well, that name.  Do you know why that reserve was  called Xsi gwin ixstaat?  Oh, yes, it's at the Wilson Creek area, yes.  :  Okay.  Now, do you know that that reserve was cut  off?  :  That's a leading question, my lord.  I object.  :  It certainly sounds like it might be leading.  It's  starting out that way anyway.  I haven't got to the end of it, and I appreciate that.  Do you know the status of that reserve?  Yes.  Can you explain what your understanding is of the  status of that reserve?  Yes. 4951  A. Mathews (for Plaintiffs)  Re-exam by Mr. Grant  1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  MR. PLANT  MR. GRANT  :  I'm not sure how this arises out of my question,  which was to identify the name of the reserve in  relation to the location at the mouth of Wilson Creek,  not the status of the reserve.  :  Well, my friend asked the question at page 4793 as  follows:  "Q     Can you confirm for me that the nine  reserves administered by the Gitwingax Band  Council are those identified in paragraph 4  of Mr. Williams' affidavit?"  And then the exhibit is introduced, and then at line  34,  "Q Mr. Mathews, looking at the last item in  that list on what is now Exhibit 364, it  says Squinlixstat,"  spelled out,  "Indian Reserve Number 3.  That's an Indian  reserve at the mouth of Wilson Creek; is  that correct?  Not quite at the mouth of Wilson Creek.  If  you see how that little reserve is, it  misses that mouth of the creek.  Is it upstream or downstream?  Upstream a bit."  THE COURT  MR. GRANT  THE COURT  MR. GRANT  THE COURT  A  Q  A  So the -- Mr. Plant led that this was a reserve.  Well, my lord, I think it's misleading because, in  fact, the reserve was cut off in 1916, and this is in  documents that my friends have and are fully aware of.  :  Was it cut off entirely?  :  And it's admitted it's relevant as to whether the  reserve is administered by the band.  If the reserve  is cut off, it's not administered by the band, and I  want to clear that up.  :  Well, cut off usually refers to a portion of a  reserve being deleted.  :  Yes, but in fact this was the entire reserve.  :  Well, you can certainly ask the witness if there is  such a reserve.  But I think your friend's objection  is probably sound that the status of the reserve is  not of any importance.  If there's no reserve there,  except perhaps notionally, I agree with you that's a 4952  A. Mathews (for Plaintiffs)  Re-exam by Mr. Grant  1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  MR.  GRANT:  Q  A  Q  A  MR. GRANT  MR. PLANT  THE COURT  MR. GRANT  proper matter for re-examination.  Yes.  Well, that -- yes.  And in asking the question  the status of the reserve, I probably misconstrued it.  Is there a reserve, and when I say reserve, I mean  a reserve administered by any band and under the  Federal Department of Indian Affairs, at Xsi gwin  ixstaat?  Not as today, no.  Can you tell the Court what happened?  Yes.  What I've been told, but I don't know the date  until now, that this was a cut-off land taken away  years ago.  :  Okay.  Now, my lord, I propose to tender at this  point an excerpt from the McKenna McBride Commission  report, which I'm sure is going to go in in its  totality ultimately, but with respect to this reserve  for the main purpose of clarifying for the Court what  occurred to this reserve as this was led by my friend.  :  Well, with respect, I don't object to the tendering  of a part portion of the document, but I should advise  your lordship that my question arose out of a plain  reading of paragraph four of Mr. Williams' affidavit,  in which he testified -- he swears that the Gitwingax  Band Council administers a number of reserves,  including Xsi gwin ixstaat.  If in fact the reserve  does not exist, then apart from any issue that might  arise with respect to other portions of the evidence  I'm quite prepared to go back and check other records  which I had not done prior to asking the questions.  For whatever reason, I thought I was content.  I  thought I could rely on the statement of Mr. Williams  as the chief councillor of the band.  And perhaps the  most expeditious way of dealing with this would be to,  rather than tender a portion only of the Royal  Commission report, as we're going to in any event be  tendering all of the report, leave the matter for that  time.  Beyond that I think my friend -- if my friend  still wishes to have this -- a portion of the document  tendered, I don't object to that.  :  Well, if all the witness is going to do, Mr. Grant,  is to confirm, perhaps even that's too strong a word,  the proceedings or the findings of the McKenna McBride  Commission, then is there any advantage to him  confirming that?  :  I'm not going to have him confirm the proceedings  of the McKenna McBride Commission.  I believed it was 4953  A. Mathews (for Plaintiffs)  Re-exam by Mr. Grant  1  2  3  4  THE  COURT  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  MR.  GRANT  14  15  16  THE  COURT  17  MR.  GRANT  18  19  THE  COURT  20  21  22  23  MR.  GRANT  24  25  26  27  28  THE  COURT  29  30  MR.  GRANT  31  Q  32  33  34  35  A  36  Q  37  38  A  39  Q  40  A  41  Q  42  43  44  45  46  A  47  MR.  GRANT  appropriate to tender it at this time.  And there is a  statement here that I'm going to ask him based on his  knowledge of it.  :  I really think, Mr. Grant, that the only thing that  cross-examination opened up for re-examination is  whether or not there is a reserve which is  administered, and if so, what that administration  amounts to.  I don't think the history of the reserve  or the proceedings in some long ago commission is  opened up by the cross-examination.  It might have  been open to you in chief, but not surely in  re-examination.  : Well, of course, the question of the reserve was not  even raised on direct. It's not -- it's a new matter.  The question of this reserve --  :  Well, I'm saying --  : -- and the status and the utility of the reserve was  raised on cross.  :  If it was a matter of importance, you could have  done it in chief.  I think all that's opened up to you  by the cross-examination is the administration of this  reserve.  :  Okay.  I shall proceed on that basis.  I submit that  it may be appropriate for the Court to be apprised of  that, and it's an appropriate time either now or at  the conclusion of this witness for that to be tendered  as the next exhibit.  :  I'm sure it's not now.  I hope that by the  cross-examination.  Yes.  You have Exhibit 364 in front of you, in which  Mr. Williams refers, and I quote -- this is in  February of 1986, and you were on the band council at  that time?  Yes.  You're aware of the passage of a fisheries by-law in  and around February 20th of 1986?  Yes.  And Mr. Williams, who was the chief councillor then?  Yes.  He states that the Gitwingax Band Council administers  the following reserves, and then the last one, Xsi  gwin ixstaat Indian Reserve Number 3.  Can you explain  to the Court why that statement was made, the reserve  did not exist, what your understanding of that was?  The cut-off land you're talking about?  :  Yes.  Why Mr. Williams stated, included Xsi gwin 4954  A. Mathews (for Plaintiffs)  Re-exam by Mr. Grant  1  2  MR.  PLANT  3  4  5  THE  COURT  6  7  8  9  MR.  GRANT  10  Q  11  12  A  13  Q  14  15  A  16  Q  17  A  18  19  20  21  MR.  GRANT  22  23  THE  COURT  24  MR.  GRANT  25  26  27  THE  COURT  28  MR.  GRANT  29  Q  30  A  31  Q  32  33  A  34  Q  35  36  A  37  MR.  GRANT  38  39  MR.  PLANT  40  41  THE  COURT  42  43  44  45  46  47  ixstaat Indian Reserve Number 3.  :  That question is objectionable.  I would certainly  be not objecting to a question differently framed than  that.  :  I don't think you can ask him why Mr. Williams said  what he said, Mr. Grant.  You can ask him what the  facts are relating to the Xsi gwin ixstaat Indian  Reserve Number 3.  Surely you don't have to --  Did the band -- were you -- you were involved with the  band council at this time?  Yes.  And the band council took a position with respect to  Xsi gwin ixstaat Indian Reserve Number 3?  Yes.  Can you explain what position they took at that time?  The position that we took, that we were trying to get  back the Indian reserve at the time, but the fishery  part of it was really the main concern we have on this  particular Xsi gwin ixstaat area, yes.  :  And I'd ask you to turn the page over.  In fact, go  to page 13 of the exhibit.  :  You appreciate that's not in, Mr. Grant?  :  Yes, yes.  And you did leave an opening that it  could be raised on re-direct as it's appended to the  affidavit, my lord.  :  Yes.  All right.  And the page 13 at the top, is that your signature?  Yes.  And this is the by-law that was passed on the 19th of  February, 1986?  Yes.  And you recognize this by-law as being the by-law that  you passed?  Yes.  :  I'd ask that that be marked as the next exhibit, my  lord.  :  I fail to see how this arises out of anything that I  asked in my examination, my lord.  :  Well, it's part of the risk, isn't it, that you take  if you put in a document that has other things  attached to it, that they may have to go in too at the  option of an adverse party.  I think it's permissible  to put it in now.  It's signed by the witness.  And I  think your friend could have put it in in chief.  He  didn't.  But once you put the covering document in, I 4955  1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  A. Mathews (for Plaintiffs)  Re-exam by Mr. Grant  think the tail has to go with the hide.  MR. PLANT:  In that event then, I understand that the document  that my friend wishes to tender is being tendered as  part of the sworn statement, that is to say, the  affidavit of Glen Williams, which up till this point  had only been tendered, to use your lordship's  phrase --  THE COURT:  Yes.  MR. PLANT:  -- as an aide-memoire for the list of reserves.  THE COURT:  Yes.  MR. PLANT:  I'm assuming, therefore, that my friend is  tendering, given that he's tendering the balance of  the papers at tab 12, that he is tendering them as an  attachment to the affidavit itself, which --  THE COURT:  As part of the affidavit, for wherever that takes  us .  PLANT:  Yes.  COURT:  364A.  MR.  THE  THE  MR.  REGISTRAR:  Tab 12, 364A.  (EXHIBIT 364A  TAB 12, MATHEW BLACK BOOK, BAND BY-LAW  OF FEBRUARY 19, 198 6, AS PART OF  AFFIDAVIT OF GLEN WILLIAMS)  GRANT:  Q  A  A  Q  A  Q  A  Do you know what has occurred subsequently, what the  status of this by-law is today?  I know it's before the courts, that it was passed  three times by the Federal Government, and it was --  yes, it was passed, yes.  And was it your understanding at the time of the  passage of this by-law that it was to apply to the  fishery at Xsi gwin ixstaat?  Yes.  And does this by-law make any provision for the  commercial sale of fish?  Yes.  You were asked by Mr. Plant about electrical power on  reserve, and you indicated that there is electric  power there today.  Who provided the poles for  electricity to be put on reserve?  There was a general meeting.  I forgot the date when  these poles were cut down.  And there was a general  meeting, and at the time all the chiefs of the village  came, and they said that -- I think -- I forgot who  the chief councillor was, but in any event, that they  say, well, we'll get the poles, everything will be 4956  A. Mathews (for Plaintiffs)  Re-exam by Mr. Grant  1 supplied by the Hydro.  The chief then indicated, no,  2 we can't do that, we have our own supply of cedar  3 poles on our reserve, and which they did cut off the  4 reserve and were then used for the poles, yes.  5 Q   Okay.  Just to clarify your answer, you said there was  6 a general meeting.  Was that a meeting of whom?  7 A   The chiefs.  8 Q   Of Kitwanga?  9 A   Yes.  10 Q   And when you say they cut the poles, who cut the  11 poles?  12 A   The younger ones, us.  We were out there.  And I think  13 that the thing they came up with there was each  14 household would have to cut about seven poles each to  15 accommodate what is needed.  16 Q   Now, you were asked some questions about a school on  17 reserve, and your answer started, "We had to fight  18 like hell to get the school."  Who -- how have you set  19 up that school?  In other words, how have you raised  20 the money to set up the school?  21 A   To set up the school, like I said, we applied to the  22 Indian Affairs, and they said that there is no money  23 available until 10 years down the road.  So then what  24 we did is we cannot wait that long, so we then turned  25 over our band office, turned it into a school, which  26 is today, and then we moved all the band council stuff  27 into a trailer, yes.  28 Q   And are you raising -- are you, that is the people of  29 Gitwingax, raising the money to pay the teachers?  30 A   Yes, sometimes.  31 Q   And to cover the supplies for the school?  32 A   Yes.  33 Q   You were asked about whether lessons are now taught in  34 Gitksan, and you were also asked this question,  35  36 "Q     Would it be fair to say that" --  37  38 At page 4795,  39  40 "Q     Would it be fair to say that some of the  41 people in your generation learned more  42 English than Gitksan.  43 A     No, just at the schoolyard but we spoke  44 mostly Gitksan, yes."  45  46 Do most of your peers, that is those in your age  47 group with whom you grew up, do they speak Gitksan, 4957  A. Mathews (for Plaintiffs)  Re-exam by Mr. Grant  1 English or both today?  2 A   Both.  3 Q   Now, you were asked if you are a member of the  4 Anglican Church, and you said you go to church but  5 that doesn't mean I give up my spiritual believes and  6 my territory.  How do you connect your spiritual  7 believes as a Gitksan with your involvement with the  8 Anglican Church?  9 A   How do I connect it was through what I was taught or  10 told how these things started.  Like when the  11 missionaries came, that these missionaries would then  12 compare our very system with the Bible system.  That  13 is how we compare and through -- through these terms.  14 What these missionaries did was they asked, and they  15 found out all these nax nok and the stuff they talked  16 about and compared it with the Bible, and they could  17 see the spiritual belief in prayer is part of the nax  18 nok of the Simoogit lax ha, and in doing so they  19 are -- my people -- when I say my people, the whole of  20 Kitwanga, Gitwingax, was then told, look, you guys got  21 four tribes, here's a person in the Bible that has the  22 12 tribes of Isreal.  So in these ways that's why we  23 are inter-connected today, that our believes were met  24 in these situations.  Another good example is our  25 people had never given up our totem poles or cut them  26 down or burning of anything.  They -- they kept both  27 two together.  2 8 THE COURT:  Mr. Mathews, what are your — what do you call your  29 four tribes?  30 THE WITNESS:  The poles ones?  31 THE COURT:  Yes.  32 THE WITNESS:  Wii 'na t'ahl.  In our language or do you want to  33 break it down?  34 THE COURT:  When you say four tribes, are you talking about four  35 clans, four houses --  36 THE WITNESS:  Four clans, yes.  37 THE COURT:  — four villages?  Four clans?  38 THE WITNESS:  In each village, yes.  3 9 THE COURT:  Thank you.  4 0 MR. GRANT:  41 Q   You are talking about the wolves?  42 A   Yeah, Ganeda, Lax Skiik, and Gisk'aast.  43 Q   I'd like to refer you for a moment to Exhibit 365.  44 That is — it's tab 14 of Mr. Plant's document book.  45 They are all of these photographs.  I'd like to refer  46 you to photograph number 3, which you identified as  47 the C.N. station.  Now, behind that station in the 495E  A. Mathews (for Plaintiffs)  Re-exam by Mr. Grant  1  2  3  A  4  Q  5  6  7  A  8  Q  9  A  10  11  12  13  14  15  Q  16  A  17  Q  18  A  19  20  Q  21  22  A  23  Q  24  A  25  26  Q  27  28  A  29  Q  30  31  A  32  Q  33  A  34  MR. GRANT  35  MR. PLANT  36  MR. GRANT  37  Q  38  39  40  41  42  43  A  44  45  46  Q  47  background but not visible is the Skeena River; is  that right?  Yes.  Okay.  Now, those mountains you see in the background,  they would be across the Skeena River from the village  of Gitwingax?  Yes.  And whose territory are they on?  There's some berry patches up on top around -- maybe  you should mark it -- in around the back.  In the very  front here there's -- we call it -- in towards the  back, it belongs to the eagles.  On this mountains  facing here there's a big berry patch we call Ant k'ii  deexw.  Okay.  Now, that's behind there?  Yes, behind there.  Okay.  Well, I'll just put an arrow.  The trail goes up around here and into the back of  that.  I'll put an arrow down at an angle.  And it's behind  that mountain there?  Yes.  Where the arrow is located?  There's a trail goes up along here and then here and  then at the back -- at the back of the mountain.  Okay.  I'll put a one at that arrow, and I'll put a  line where you've marked showing the trail --  Yes.  -- and a 2 on photo 3.  And that belongs to the  eagles?  Yes.  And who's the head chief of the eagles?  Sakxum higookx.  Sakxum higookx.  Could the witness state the basis of his knowledge?  I'll get to that.  I'll get to that in a moment.  Mr. Plant asked you this morning if you'd heard  Sakxum higookx's territory being described in the  feast hall, and you said, no, not since you'd become a  chief.  How did you learn that that berry ground there  was Sakxum higookx's territory?  We go up there at times, lots of times.  When there is  no berries at our own, at Xsi gwin ixstaat, we would  go up here.  And who taught you that it was Sakxum higookx's and  the eagles' berry ground? 4959  A. Mathews (for Plaintiffs)  Re-exam by Mr. Grant  1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  MR.  THE  MR.  THE  MR.  THE  MR.  MR.  THE  THE  A   The old George Moore I used to fish with.  That was at  T'ewelasxw.  Q   That's the person you used to fish with at T" ewelasxw?  A   Yes.  GRANT:  T'ewelaxsw is on the Plaintiffs' list, my lord.  Maybe I shouldn't speak so fast.  TRANSLATOR:  63.  GRANT:  Q   63.  And also this very top of the mountain, where we put  this thing here, we go hunting for goats there.  Right again right under the arrow?  Yeah, right where the arrow is.  Where we had the  arrow was behind where there is a little peak in here.  We hunt goats there.  And whose territory is that on?  The same.  The eagles?  Ant kii is, yes.  COURT:  Is it convenient to adjourn now, Mr. Grant?  I have  a matter I have to look after.  GRANT:  Yes, your honour.  Oh, can I just ask one question?  COURT:  Yes.  GRANT:  Q   Is George Moore now deceased?  A   Yes, he is.  GRANT:  Okay.  COURT:  All right.  Thank you.  Two o'clock, please.  REGISTRAR:  Order in court.  Court will adjourn until 2:00.  (PROCEEDINGS ADJOURNED AT 12:28 P.M.)  I hereby certify the foregoing to be  a true and accurate transcript of the  proceedings to the business of my  skill and ability.  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Leanna Smith  Official Reporter  United Reporting Service Ltd.  (PROCEEDINGS RESUMED PURSUANT TO LUNCHEON ADJOURNMENT)  THE REGISTRAR:  Calling Delgamuukw vs. her Majesty the Queen at  bar, my lord.  THE COURT:  Mr. Grant. 4960  A. Mathews (for Plaintiffs)  Re-exam by Mr. Grant  1    MR. GRANT:  Thank you, my lord.  2  3 RE-EXAMINATION BY MR. GRANT, Continued:  4 Q   I believe you had the photograph book.  In photo  5 number three of tab tab 14, Exhibit 365, the building  6 there I believe you have identified as the C.N.  7 Station?  8 A   Yes.  9 Q   And it is now closed down?  10 A   Yes.  11 Q   Okay.  And -- all right.  You were asked some  12 questions by my friend about the genealogy and the  13 question was -- you were asked what House was Elsie  14 Morgan born into.  Was Elsie Morgan a Gitksan?  15 A   No.  16 Q   What was she, what name?  17 A   Tsimxsan.  18 Q   Tsimxsan.  Now, you described in evidence on Friday  19 about two kinds of adoptions and one kind is -- well,  20 I will just read from page 4808:  21  22 "      But at the same time -- "  23  24 This is referring to Barb and Elsie and Lloyd,  25  26 " -- that these three persons were adopted,  27 they were the only ones of that immediate  28 family that were adopted into your house?  29 A Yes.  30 Q Is there a reason for that?  31 A Yes, these adoptions come singular This type  32 of adoption, like I said, is to show respect  33 of the people.  You don't want to leave them  34 standing at the door.  Like if you go to  35 your rest, your name has to appear on what  36 you call reservation list.  So as our names  37 when we get there we are seated right away  38 and if you don't have a name you stay back  39 until everybody is in."  40  41 I think where it says "rest" it should be "reserve,"  42 my lord.  Going to:  43  44 "Q Do Elsie, Barb and Lloyd all have names in  45 the House of Tenimgyet?  46 A Yes.  47 Q Do Barb and -- well, I guess it would only 4961  A. Mathews (for Plaintiffs)  Re-exam by Mr. Grant  1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  A  14  Q  15  16  17  18  A  19  Q  20  21  22  23  24  A  25  Q  26  27  A  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  Q  35  36  37  A  38  Q  39  40  41  A  42  Q  43  44  A  45  THE COURT  46  A  47  THE COURT  be Barb, would Barb have the children?  A     Yes, she does.  Q     And are those children members of the House  of Tenimgyet?  A     Not yet.  Q     Do they have to be individually adopted  also?  A     Yes.  Q     And is there a term in Gitksan for this kind  of adoption?  A     Yes.  We call it see Ts'ilimdoogam nidiit."  Uh-huh.  Now, then you referred to the second kind of adoption  where I believe you -- and I won't go through it, but  I think you describe it where the mother comes in with  all of her children?  Yes.  Now, when you referred to the second kind of adoption,  at one point you said this is the -- this is the legal  adoption or words to that effect.  This first kind,  this Ts'ilimdoogam nidiit, is that adoption legally --  legal under Gitksan law?  Yes.  When a person is adopted either way, are their rights  within the House the same?  Not quite.  Like I said when Tsilim dok has the right  to use through the very permission and they are  adopted through singular, like if, for instance, with  some of the Morgans I have mentioned they have some  more children come in.  But with the other adoption  when you adopt a mother, then you don't have to adopt  the children any more.  That's the difference.  Okay.  So in the first kind you adopt the person by  individual; the second kind is you adopt the whole --  the mother and her children together?  Yes.  But once adopted, does a person in the first kind have  the same rights to use the territory of your House as  a person under the second kind?  Yes.  And are those the same as the rights of a member born  into the House?  Yes.  :  That's different from what you just said, isn't it?  Pardon?  :  I thought you said a moment ago, Mr. Mathews, that 4962  A. Mathews (for Plaintiffs)  Re-exam by Mr. Grant  1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  A  THE COURT  A  THE COURT  A  THE COURT  A  MR. GRANT  Q  A  Q  MR. PLANT  THE COURT  the rights are the same except that the adopted  members had -- could use the territory only with  individual permission?  Yes.  That's what I thought he -- I thought that's  what he said.  :  Are you saying that the member of your House who are  born into the House also need permission?  Yes.  That's what we do.  We ask permission to go  there and once you get that permission, like -- okay,  if you want to use the certain individual area, yes.  :  Well, then the rights of adopted and non-adopted  members of the House are exactly the same then?  Yes.  That's what I'm trying to say, your honour.  :  So my note is correct when I say that adopted and  non-adopted members of the House have exactly the same  rights to the use of the territory of the House?  Yes.  With their mother, yes.  If there mother is  there, we cannot chase them away.  They have to come  with the parents, if they are there.  But the thing is  they don't have any names yet and they are scheduled  to have names later on, yes.  :  Okay.  But you appreciate that what his lordship is referring  to is after they have been adopted they have the same  rights as those who are in the House by birth?  Yes.  You were asked about whether George Turner and your  father were married to members of the House and this  was with respect to their presence at a meeting.  Are  George Turner and your father, are they invited to  meetings of other Houses?  :  With respect, my lord, I don't know how -- what the  ambiguity or confusion was in my examination that led  to this question.  At least that leads to this  question.  And it was indeed a matter covered at some  length by my friend in direct-examination.  I don't  have any particular concern with this question per se,  but I have a serious concern with whether my friend  views re-examination as simply an opportunity to go  over grounds that he has already gone over or to open  doors that have not yet been opened that he had every  opportunity to open during examination in chief and I  invite your lordship to rule this question  inadmissible.  : Well, re-examination is the most prime part of any  case. It assumes that we have instant recall of all  the evidence we have heard over the last several days 4963  A. Mathews (for Plaintiffs)  Re-exam by Mr. Grant  1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  MR.  THE  MR.  THE  GRANT  COURT  GRANT  COURT  MR. GRANT  THE  MR.  COURT  GRANT  MR.  A  PLANT  THE COURT  MR. GRANT  and I haven't the slightest idea, Mr. Grant, of the  basis upon which you seek to re-examine on this point.  You'll have to explain it to me.  Okay.  If there is an objection I have to deal with it.  Yes.  I appreciate that.  Re-examination should be abolished and then we would  all be much happier.  It's usually of no force or  effect in any way whatsoever.  Once in awhile it's  important.  Most of the time it's really a waste time.  Well, given those comments, I don't think I will  press this question.  That's your choice.  But I am not going to sit down quite yet.  But I  won't press that question, because I think it's of  some assistance to the court, but the weight of what  my friend learned was probably minimal.  Mr. Plant asked you a question about the name of your  House and whether you refer to it as Ax tii hiikw or  Tenimgyet.  And you have mentioned it as having been  referred to as one, and I will refer at page 4817 line  11:  "Q     Is it as simple as that, you would call it  the House of Tenimgyet and if Ax tii hiikw  were here he would probably call it the  House of Ax tii hiikw?  A     Simply because we are considered as one and  we split that seat, like I said.  And we put  up a Feast and this is accepted, it is  accepted.  It is the same as one person  using two names, here we are using one seat  and putting up Ax tii hiikw and Tenimgyet as  one. "  Now, if in the case of a Gitksan House where the seat  has not been split, would it just be referred to by  the name of the head chief?  Yes.  Again, I don't know how that arises out of my  examination.  My examination was directed simply to  this witness' House.  The way in which the -- this  witness described the name of his House.  Mr. Grant?  On what basis do you seek to adduce this  evidence?  Well, my lord, what he -- there was a very  lengthy -- going on for several pages about both this 4964  A. Mathews (for Plaintiffs)  Re-exam by Mr. Grant  1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  THE COURT  MR. GRANT  MR. PLANT  THE COURT  MR. GRANT:  Q  House and another House, and this isn't the only case  with respect to my friend that he referred to and he  referred to the Guxsan House and the other House as  well and I simply wanted to clarify how in the  circumstances under which a House is referred to by  both chief's names.  There were two references to it  and one was to the Guxsan House.  I am not going to  refer to it further.  :  Wasn't this a matter that you dealt with in some  length in your evidence in chief?  :  The name of the House, the name by which the House  went, no, my lord.  :  With great respect, my lord, at page 4521 the  question was asked:  "What is the name of your House?"  Volume 73 in the first day of my friend's examination,  indeed within the first four or five pages of my  friends' examination in chief of this witness.  :  Well, I have no doubt, Mr. Grant, that I should say  that having embarked upon the matter in chief that  it's not open to you to re-examine on it.  If you  think there is an important distinction, however, that  may have escaped the scrutiny of this record, I think  that I will allow you to ask the question only if you  think it's important.  On page 4827 Mr. Plant asked you at line 12:  Now, Mr. Mathews, one of the things that's  taken place in Kitwanga since 1971 is that  the name of the reserve has changed, is that  correct?  From?  Kitwanga to Gitwingax?  Yeah, Gitwingax is the right name for it.  Do you recall that change of name having  taken place?  No, but I remember people were concerned.  We call it Kitwanga and they still objected  to it and then they said okay, we will put  Gitwingax."  A  Q  A  Q  A  What is the traditional Gitksan name for that  community?  A   Gitwingax.  Q   The name it now holds?  A   Yes.  Q   When Mr. Plant referred to this trip two years ago, 4965  A. Mathews (for Plaintiffs)  Re-exam by Mr. Grant  1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  MR. PLANT  MR. GRANT  the goat hunting trip where a large number of you  went?  Yes.  He referred to it and he said at one point that trip  to you two years as ago was a pretty special  expedition as I recall from my note.  Have you gone on  trips with a large number of people before that  occasion for goat hunting?  Yes.  You were asked about the Wilson Creek events and --  just a moment -- the Wilson Creek events and you were  asked about the agreement was made with the Kitwanga  band.  Did you -- at that time in 1985 you held the  name Tenimgyet?  Yes.  At the time they were at Wilson Creek.  Did you  participate in the negotiations with the C.N. persons  as Tenimgyet?  Part of it, yes.  You were asked about a trail -- you were asked about  trapline registration and the registration system  when -- with reference to Exhibit 350 and you  described what occurred during that time, but then you  said you went there at the time.  Who told you about  what happened?  :  I am not sure what the question is that I asked or  perhaps it was a question of my friend Mr. Macaulay's  that gives rise to my friend's question here.  In  other words, what was the matter that was left in need  of clarification as a result of my cross-examination?  :  On page 4843, my lord, of Volume 78, Mr. Plant  asked:  "Q       I'd like to try to find some of the  places that you were able to find on Exhibit  350.  Have you got the trapline application  form there?  In typescript I'm referring to  -- the place I'm referring to on this  document reads 'full description of trapline  showing location and sufficiently defining  said line by reference to the nearest known  natural geographical points.'.  Now, can you read what follows that  in handwriting?  A     Uh-huh.  See why I said this would follow  pretty closely is now you're getting into  the area of what I was trying to say.  When 4966  A. Mathews (for Plaintiffs)  Re-exam by Mr. Grant  1 these were written up they were done in  2 somebody's office, not actually going out  3 there.  That's the difference.  And, you  4 know, they might have gone through a whole  5 bunch of interpreters to try and get these.  6 And these were done in our language and what  7 happened -- what my -- what I was told is  8 they just read these names and say, 'pretty  9 close, yes, yes.'  10 Q Someone told you that?  11 A Yes.  12 Q You haven't actually done that work  13 yourself, have you?  14 A No."  15  16 Now, I am sorry, he goes on:  17  18 "Q Yes.  Who was it that told you that these  19 related very closely?  20 A Wallace Morgan."  21  22 Was he the only one that had just told you this?  23 MR. PLANT:  I don't think that's a proper question in  24 re-examination with great respect, my lord.  I asked  25 who was it.  It was a pretty open question.  He had  26 every opportunity there to tell me who it was that had  27 told him.  And I asked the question at my friend's  28 invitation at line 33:  29  30 "MR. GRANT:  Maybe you should ask who told him.  31 MR. PLANT:  Pardon?"  32  33 Line 35:  34  35 "MR. GRANT:  Maybe you should ask who told him.  3 6 MR. PLANT:  37 Q Yes.  Who was it that told you that these  38 related very closely?  39 A Wallace Morgan."  40  41 I tried to accommodate my friend as best I could in  42 that respect, my lord, and I don't see how there is  43 any scope for re-examination arising out of that  44 question.  45 MR. GRANT:  Well, my lord, with respect, he didn't ask the  46 question about -- he didn't ask the question that I  47 was trying to get asked, which is who told him what 4967  A. Mathews (for Plaintiffs)  Re-exam by Mr. Grant  1 the process was of the registration of the traplines.  2 What he asked was who told you that those related very  3 closely and it was a different question and I am  4 asking -- the witness gave a description of what  5 happened and clearly this happened before this  6 witness' lifetime.  And clearly we are going to have  7 some argument and my friend is going to have a big  8 argument about whether or not this evidence is  9 admissible as an exception.  And I think it's  10 appropriate that you know who told him what happened  11 at that time of the registration of the traplines.  12 That's the point of the question.  And my friend  13 asked --  14 THE COURT:  What probative value does the evidence have?  It's  15 as hearsay as anything can be, isn't it?  16 MR. GRANT:  Well, it depends on who told him and the context in  17 which they told him.  It's -- it appears to be  18 hearsay, but it may not be.  Depending on who told  19 him.  But if we don't have the evidence of who told  2 0 him, we have no basis upon which to make any argument  21 to the court.  22 THE COURT:  Well, all right.  I'll hear the evidence subject to  23 the objection.  24 MR. PLANT:  Well, perhaps, my lord -- I am sorry to go on at  25 length about this.  The question of relevant -- the  26 question that I think my friend could ask is this.  It  27 arises from page 4843.  When I say I think, I mean I  2 8 submit.  Mr. Mathews said:  29  30 " And these were done in our language and what  31 happened -- what my -- what I was told is  32 they just read these names and say 'pretty  33 close, yes, yes.'"  34  35 Unquote.  And with respect, I would say that the  36 appropriate question on re-examination would be:  Who  37 told you that they just read these names and say  38 "pretty close yes, yes."  I would accept that as a  39 relevant and permissible question.  40 THE COURT:  Unless it falls under the exception to the  41 hearsay -- under an exception to the hearsay rule it  42 has no probative value at all no matter who told him.  43 MR. PLANT:   Everything I say in relation to this kind of  44 evidence is always subject to that objection, my lord.  45 THE COURT:  All right, go ahead, Mr. Grant.  4 6 MR. GRANT:  47 Q   Who told you about the process of this description? 496E  A. Mathews (for Plaintiffs)  Re-exam by Mr. Grant  1 And given the interjection I will read it again.  The  2 answer -- what you were being asked:  3  4 "A     Uh-huh.  See why I said this would follow  5 pretty closely is now you're getting into  6 the area of what I was trying to say.  When  7 these were written up -- "  8  9 Referring to Exhibit 350 at the time, the trapline  10 application of Charlie Smith.  11  12 "      -- they were done in somebody's office, not  13 actually going out there.  That's the  14 difference.  And, you know, they might have  15 gone through a whole bunch of interpreters  16 to try and get these.  And these were  17 done in our language and what happened --  18 what my -- what I was told is they just read  19 these names and say 'pretty close, yes,  2 0 yes.'"  21  22 Who told you that that's what happened at the time of  23 the registration of traplines?  24 A  Well, like my father was with Charlie Smith --  25 Q   Yes.  26 A   -- and Wallace, Jeffery and Jack.  They were fighting  27 for that particular trapline, yes.  2 8 Q   And they told you what happened when Charlie Smith  29 went in?  30 A   Yes.  31 Q   Or when they met?  Sorry, my lord.  I am just editing.  32 Yesterday you were asked what language you spoke in  33 your home and your wife you described is Tsimxsan and  34 you are Gitksan and I believe your answer was that you  35 spoke both Gitksan and Tsimxsan at home.  Is -- then  36 you said that in answer to a question of your wife's  37 at page 4860:  38  39 "Q     And vice versa, when you are speaking  40 Gitksan does your wife follow you?  41 A     Yes, she can understand some elderly person  42 if they use our language, she knows what  43 they are talking about."  44  45 Do the elderly persons speak -- use words that are  46 less commonly used?  47 A   No.  Just use our language.  The Gitksan language, 4969  A. Mathews (for Plaintiffs)  Re-exam by Mr. Grant  1  2  Q  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  A  10  11  Q  12  13  14  15  16  A  17  Q  18  19  A  20  Q  21  A  22  Q  23  24  A  25  Q  26  A  27  Q  28  THE COURT  29  30  31  MR. GRANT  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  yes .  So now, also you were asked to compare about the  Gitksan.  If you had heard people speak Gitksan the  way it's spoken at Kispiox and Hazelton, is the  Gitksan language in Kispiox and Hazelton is it closer  to the Gitksan at Gitwingax than your wife's language  or is it different?  Is it sort of the same proximity  in relation?  They are the same, yes, pretty close, yes.  Just some  of the words as I said that were different.  Now, you were asked about your daughter Karen and it  led into an extensive discussion about a divorce Feast  that you indicated you didn't have.  Between your wife  and yourself whose daughter -- whose natural daughter  was Karen?  My wife's.  Before you married your present wife had you ever  previously been married?  No.  Have you ever been common-law?  No.  And that is why you didn't have a divorce Feast or a  divorce in this court?  Yes.  Is that right?  If I stay any longer I might have to.  Try to get you out of here.  :  Well, I am sorry, but yesterday or the day before --  yesterday I asked you, Mr. Mathews, if you had a  divorce in this court and you said yes, you did.  :  Well, the answer, my lord, it's on page 4863 and the  whole rest -- I understand, that's why I raised it,  because there was a misunderstanding across the board,  I think.  But after a discussion about this and a  question of whether it had a Feast, you did say:  "Mr. Mathews, I would like to know, is the  divorce that you went through, was a that an  Indian ceremony or was that a divorce  according to the laws of British Columbia?"  And the witness:  "      That happened -- that was my wife's part,  not my part.  THE COURT:  But it was a divorce in this court?  THE WITNESS:  I assume it would have, yes." 4970  A. Mathews (for Plaintiffs)  Re-exam by Mr. Grant  1  2  3  4  5  THE  COURT  6  7  8  MR.  GRANT  9  THE  COURT  10  A  11  THE  COURT  12  13  A  14  THE  COURT  15  16  A  17  MR.  GRANT  18  19  THE  COURT  20  21  MR.  GRANT  22  23  24  Q  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  MR.  PLANT  34  35  36  THE  COURT  37  38  MR.  GRANT  39  Q  40  41  42  43  44  A  45  Q  46  47  So it was his wife and everybody was operating on the  assumption that it was his child that we were talking  about, but it was his wife.  :  I wasn't concerned about that.  I took it, although  I confessed that I took it that Karen was his  daughter.  :  Which she is today, but she is --  :  Is Karen your natural daughter?  No.  :  She is -- all right.  Is she your present wife's  natural daughter?  Yes.  :  And you were never previously married and never  previously divorced?  Yes, that's right.  :  And, my lord, that isn't inconsistent with the  transcript, but it's certainly --  :  It's certainly different from the understanding I  got from the witness.  :  Yes, yes.  But the witness kept -- there was a  built-in assumption, I think, in your question.  That's why I wished to clear that up.  You were asked yesterday by Mr. Plant, you were asked  about what your average annual income from trapping  was over the years since 1971.  And there was a  description where you described your trapping and I  believe your boys' trapping on the territory.  Now,  not talking about the fishery which you have explained  in detail, do your territories have a value -- the  land territories have a value for you other than for  trapping first?  :  Well, I object to that question, my lord.  My friend  was four and a half days in chief with this witness  and --  :  Sounds like a matter that's part of your case, isn't  it, Mr. Grant?  :  I will leave it, my lord.  This morning you were asked about -- 349, if you could  just have the -- you were asked about the name Haahl  Daax which is along the border of Exhibit 349, and you  translated that meaning to be along the side of a  mountain, is that right?  Yes.  Now, when Gitksan names, when you have named places,  do they -- is the way -- are the names of places, do  they usually refer to the natural -- the natural -- 4971  A. Mathews (for Plaintiffs)  Re-exam by Mr. Grant  1  2  3  A  4  Q  5  6  7  8  9  A  10  Q  11  12  13  A  14  15  16  Q  17  18  19  20  21  MR.  PLANT  22  23  24  25  26  27  THE  COURT  28  MR.  GRANT  29  30  MR.  PLANT  31  MR.  GRANT  32  MR.  PLANT  33  MR.  GRANT  34  35  THE  COURT  36  MR.  GRANT  37  38  39  40  Q  41  42  43  44  45  A  46  47  the appearance or some geographical feature of the  place they are referring to?  Yes.  When you refer -- I understood from your answers this  morning that when you referred to a thing such as  Haahl Daax, if you were going along a side you would  refer to it that way as that's what you were, along  the side of a place?  Yes.  But is this Haahl Daax a proper name, that is, is it a  name of a specific place in your territory other than  just -- if you understand what I mean?  Yes.  Haahl Daax is the description of how it looks  like, yes.  And I have named that mountain what he was  concerned about this morning.  You were asked this morning about when Jeffery died in  1985, I believe that was in August of '85.  You were  asked if you -- you had already given evidence that  the smokehouse was wound down and people left the  fishing sites .  No, that's not the evidence that he gave, my lord.  I asked him about whether the operation was shut down  and Mr. Mathews, as I recall, responded with some  force that they did not shut the operation down,  because if they had done that they would be idiots to  do that because the fish would rot.  That's right.  Well, my lord, my friend has it -- my friend is  very -- I guess getting very antsy somehow.  No, I am just getting impatient, my lord.  Yes, that's impatient.  I am keen to hear the evidence of the next witness.  Well, my lord, if my friend would be quiet for a  moment, I hadn't even asked the question.  Your friend's objections are all proper objections.  But this last one I hadn't asked a question, my  lord.  With respect, I hadn't asked a question yet.  And I didn't summarize -- I don't want to go verbatim  and I understand all of that.  The question that you were asked was whether or not  you stopped work at the mill and you said no.  And  this is the point I wish to get to, my lord.  Can you  explain why you didn't stop work at the mill although  this other operation was wound down?  Yes. Because I had approached my immediate supervisor  and asked for a leave of absence. Then I did take off  work.  There was a leave of absence which you go 4972  A. Mathews (for Plaintiffs)  Re-exam by Mr. Grant  1  2  Q  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  A  12  Q  13  14  15  A  16  Q  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  A  24  Q  25  26  MR.  PLANT  27  THE  COURT  28  29  30  MR.  PLANT  31  32  33  34  35  THE  COURT  36  37  MR.  GRANT  38  Q  39  40  41  A  42  Q  43  44  45  A  46  Q  47  through when you are in the union.  Referring to Mr. Macaulay's cross-examination today,  he referred you to Exhibits 373 and 374 which made  reference to being at the coast in 1982.  Then he  asked you about a number of other persons from your  House including Charlie Derrick, Sam Derrick, Wallace  Morgan, Art Matthews Sr. and Henry Tait and you've  indicated that you at times, your father, Art Sr., and  Henry Tait and Wallace Morgan all had fished at the  coast?  Yes.  Have any of those people that you knew fished at the  coast, have any of them left the territory  permanently?  No.  You were asked by Mr. Macaulay about whether or not  you knew or understood that there was a -- that a  trapline, and as I recall my note was it was Steven  Morgan was passed to Wallace and passed to Richard --  well, then you were asked whether Richard Morgan  received his father Wallace's trapline and you  indicated you knew about that?  Yes.  Are there discussions between yourself and Richard  to -- or is this matter subject matter for a Feast?  :  I object to that question, my lord.  : I am not sure, Mr. Plant, whether this isn't proper  re-examination, the question of the devolution of the  trapline from -- to Richard from his father.  :  Well, as I understand, then -- I maybe speaking for  Mr. Macaulay here when I shouldn't, but the purpose of  Mr. Macaulay's question may simply have been to  identify the line of descent.  If the questioning went  further than that, then my objection may not be --  :  No.  I think this is a proper matter for  re-examination.  :  Thank you, my lord.  Is the subject matter of the discent of this trapline  subject matter for -- is it being discussed at the  Feasts?  Yes.  Okay.  Has it -- has it been transferred over to you  or to your House yet or do you anticipate any -- what  the outcome is?  We are still working on it, yes.  And it will.  Okay.  Now, you were asked in questions I believe it  was yesterday about the Hawaaw' and the photograph, I 4973  A. Mathews (for Plaintiffs)  Re-exam by Mr. Grant  1  2  3  4  5  THE  COURT  6  MR.  GRANT  7  THE  COURT  8  MR.  GRANT  9  Q  10  11  A  12  Q  13  A  14  15  16  Q  17  A  18  MR.  GRANT  19  THE  COURT  20  21  22  A  23  THE  COURT  24  A  25  26  THE  COURT  27  A  28  THE  COURT  29  30  31  32  MR.  GRANT  33  THE  COURT  34  MR.  GRANT  35  THE  COURT  36  MR.  GRANT  37  38  THE  COURT  39  MR.  GRANT  40  41  THE  COURT  42  43  MR.  GRANT  44  45  THE  COURT  46  MR.  PLANT  47  believe you were asked whether it was still -- this  was an exhibit I put in, but you were asked whether  that Hawaaw' still stood.  This is the one on the box.  Is there another one?  He said it was just burned by fire.  It was burned by fire.  That's what he said.  Yes.  Are you in the process of preparing a new Hawaaw' to  be erected?  Yes.  And when do you anticipate that will be raised?  It depends on the people we have selected to carve it  for us, which was Luuxoon and Xsuu were appointed the  task of carving it for us.  Is that carving taking place now?  Yes, I think.  Those are my questions on re-examination.  Thank you.  Just to make sure that I have got this  right, Mr. Mathews, my note was my first marriage  ended in divorce.  That's not right, I gather?  No.  once?  got, but if I don't get  You have only been married  Just once. Yeah. The one I  home right away maybe --  You are still married?  Still married.  All right.  Thank you, Mr. Mathews.  You are  excused.  (WITNESS ASIDE)  Yes, my lord, the next witness is Mrs. Joan Ryan.  Thank you.  And her evidence will be led by Michael Jackson.  Thank you.  And I believe Mrs. Alice Sampson will be sitting in  the same relationship to assist in interpreting.  Thank you.  And Mrs. Alice Sampson, as I understand, has been  sworn in already.  Yes.  Thank you.  Am I going to need some of the  documents of the earlier witness?  I don't think you will for Miss Ryan, but I do think  you will subsequently.  All right.  Thank you.  Oh, yes.  Perhaps while we are on that subject, my  lord, as to my document book for Mr. Mathews, there 4974  Proceedings  1  2  THE  COURT  3  MR.  PLANT  4  5  6  THE  COURT  7  MR.  PLANT  8  9  10  THE  COURT  11  MR.  PLANT  12  13  14  THE  COURT  15  MR.  PLANT  16  THE  REGIS  17  MR.  PLANT  18  19  20  21  22  THE  COURT  23  MR.  PLANT  24  THE  REGIS  25  THE  COURT  26  27  MR.  GRANT  28  THE  COURT  29  MR.  GRANT  30  31  32  33  THE  COURT  34  MR.  GRANT  35  THE  COURT  36  MR.  GRANT  37  38  THE  COURT  39  MR.  GRANT  40  THE  COURT  41  MR.  GRANT  42  THE  COURT  43  44  45  46  47  were some documents that I did not refer to.  Yes.  I may not -- or at this point I don't anticipate  referring to and at least for the time being, that is,  at tab nine.  Just a moment, please.  Tab nine?  Yes.  The document at tab nine of my document book is a  part of the record before the court, but I don't need  it.  All right.  In this book.  I made no reference to the material  at tab 11 either, which is the pleadings in the  Supreme Court action.  Do you wish to extract them?  And that material can be removed.  'RAR:  Tab 11.  And tab 13 contains a number of documents which I  did not refer to.  And they can be removed.  And tab  16 contains a letter which I did refer to, but the  witness, Mr. Mathews, was unable to identify and that  can be removed also.  All right.  Thank you, my lord.  'RAR:  Tab 16.  Thank you.  Do you want to give those documents back  to Mr. Plant, please, Madam Registrar.  I should do the same, my lord.  All right.  I endeavored to do it before, but my friends asked  me to hold off. I would ask that the balance of the  documents except for Exhibit 350 be removed from tab  14.  Thank you.  I am sorry, they were already removed?  Well, they weren't in my copy.  Tab 14, the balance of the exhibits have been  removed.  Just the front page was marked.  Yes.  Yes.  I am sorry.  Is that all, Mr. Grant?  I believe that's all, yes.  I will review it.  All right.  Thank you.  Swear the witness, please.  JOAN RYAN, a witness called on behalf  of the Plaintiffs, having first been  duly sworn, testified as follows:  ALICE SAMPSON, Interpreter, 4975  J. Ryan (for Plaintiffs)  In Chief by Mr. Jackson  1 previously sworn:  2  3 THE REGISTRAR:  Would you state your name for the record,  4 please, and spell your last name.  5 A   I am Joan Ryan.  6 THE COURT:  Thank you, Miss Ryan.  Sit down if you wish.  7 THE REGISTRAR:  I caution the interpreter, you are still under  8 oath.  9 THE COURT:  Mr. Jackson.  10 MR. JACKSON:  My lord, it may assist you to understand the scope  11 of this witness' evidence.  In light of the fact that  12 you have already heard extensive evidence from another  13 member of her House, you may recall last summer in  14 Smithers you heard the evidence of Olive Ryan Gwaans,  15 one of the elders and wing chiefs of the House of  16 Hanamuxw and that evidence detailed the histories and  17 the territories, fishing sites, totem poles and the  18 regalia of the House of Hanamuxw.  She also gave  19 extensive evidence of the system feasting in the --  20 which the Gisk'aast clan participates.  21 The next witness, Joan Ryan, Chief Hanamuxw, will  22 give evidence of how she has as a Gitksan chief has  23 exercised her authority and continues to exercise her  24 authority in a contemporary context.  In that sense,  25 her evidence is linked to the last witness, Chief  26 Tenimgyet.  She will also give evidence on how she has  27 discharged her responsibilities as a Gitksan chief  28 within the Gitksan territories even though she lives  29 outside of the territories.  I envisage that the  30 evidence in chief should not take more than a day.  31  32 EXAMINATION IN CHIEF BY MR. JACKSON:  33 Q   Could you tell the court your Gitksan name?  34 A  My name is Hanamuxw.  35 Q   And could you tell the court to what House do you  36 belong?  37 A   I am the head chief of the House of Hanamuxw.  38 Q   And which clan is that?  39 A   Gisk'aast clan.  40 Q   And which is the village to which your House is  41 attached?  42 A   The House is attached is one of our Houses and a place  43 call Kitsegukla.  44 THE COURT:  I am sorry?  45 A   Kitsegukla.  4 6 MR. JACKSON:  4 7 Q   And when did you succeed to the name Hanamuxw? 4976  J. Ryan (for Plaintiffs)  In Chief by Mr. Jackson  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  THE  MR.  THE  MR.  MR.  THE  MR.  THE  MR.  THE  MR.  THE  MR.  It was after the death of my great uncle Jeffery  Johnson November 1, 1966.  Okay.  And who is your mother?  My mother's name is Olive Ryan.  And she holds the name --  She holds the name Gwaans.  And who --  She is one of the wing chiefs in my House.  And who is your father?  My father is Philip Ryan and he's from Gitwingax and  his name is Hakw.  And what clan is that?  The clan is a Frog Clan.  I am going to ask a few questions regarding your early  childhood.  When were you born?  I was born May 18, 1932.  Where was that?  At the Village of Gitwingax.  As a child did you go out into the territories?  Yes.  Could you --  Usually to my father's territory.  And which territory is that?  This is the territory closest to Woodcock.  And does that territory have a name?  Yes.  Could you give the court the name of that territory?  An sa haamook.  And what did you do.  :  I need the spelling of that, please?  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  COURT:  JACKSON:  799  COURT:  7 99.  JACKSON:  But —  GRANT:  There is an additional from --  COURT:  Yes, I have it.  GRANT:  But there are some further additions.  COURT:  Thank you.  PLANT:  I don't have a list that goes up as far as -- is it  799?  Yes.  I was just given it this morning.  Yes.  I have a gap in my list between 730 and 789.  Perhaps that could be provided with copies of the  intervening words.  All right.  Thank you.  JACKSON:  Q   What would you do with your father on that territory  Could we have the spelling of that?  I think it's  COURT  PLANT  COURT: 4977  J. Ryan (for Plaintiffs)  In Chief by Mr. Jackson  1 when you went there with him?  2 A   The purpose was to acquaint me with his territory.  It  3 is part of my education to know where his territory  4 is.  Also to teach me how to hunt for rabbits and for  5 grouse.  He taught me how to shoot with a gun.  Also  6 on his territories we do have a number of berries.  We  7 have huckleberries, soap berries, we have the lower  8 bush blueberries known as 'mil yahl.  9 Q   In addition to going into the hunting territories, did  10 you go to any fishing sites with your father?  11 A   Not all the time.  There were times I wouldn't go out  12 on the river with my father, but I know where the site  13 is.  14 Q   Okay.  And where is that site?  15 A   It's close to what we call Woodcock.  16 Q   Does it have a name?  17 A   Yes, it has a name.  18 Q   Could you give the court that name?  19 A   Lax 'wii t'in.  20 MR. JACKSON:  Do we have a number for that?  As I recall, my  21 lord, that was one of the sites which was identified  22 by Gwaans when she went through the fishing sites at  23 Kitwanga.  24 THE TRANSLATOR:  Number 292.  2 5 MR. JACKSON:  2 92, my lord.  2 6 THE COURT:  Thank you.  2 7 MR. JACKSON:  28 Q   Did you go out on the river at any time with any of  29 your relatives?  30 A   Yes.  With my grandfather James Ryan.  He was --  31 Q   And —  32 A   -- a blind man and it was my task to assist him when  33 he would do his fishing with a drift net on the Skeena  34 River.  35 Q   And —  36 THE COURT:  On the Skeena River?  37 A   Yes.  3 8 THE COURT:  Yes.  3 9 MR. JACKSON:  40 Q   What kind of boat would you have used in those days?  41 A  A canoe made from cedar and we have a name for it.  We  42 call it 'mal.  43 Q   That's m-e-double-1?  That's on our word list.  44 THE TRANSLATOR:  805.  4 5 MR. JACKSON:  85?  46 THE TRANSLATOR:  805.  4 7 MR. JACKSON: 497E  J. Ryan (for Plaintiffs)  In Chief by Mr. Jackson  1 Q   Now, I want to ask you some questions regarding your,  2 if I may term it is your Gitksan education.  Did  3 you --  4 THE COURT:  Well, I am sorry, Mr. Jackson, I don't have anything  5 going into the eight hundreds.  6 MR. GRANT  7 THE COURT  8 MR. GRANT  That new list that I provided, my lord.  Does it?  At the very bottom the second last one I am sure.  I  9 just provided it to you now.  The numerical list.  10 THE COURT:  Oh, yes.  I have it, thank you.  11 MR. JACKSON:  12 Q   Did you receive any education and training as a child  13 to prepare you to take on the responsibilities of a  14 Gitksan chief?  15 A   Yes.  When you are the eldest child in the family of a  16 chief it's a foregone conclusion that you are going to  17 in the future be the chief.  So your training, your  18 core curriculum is based on what your future is going  19 to be.  And your training is given first of all by  20 your wilksiwitxw that we -- that's their prime  21 responsibility, to train you, but then your wil'na  22 t'ahl also plays a very important part in insuring  23 what you have learned from wilksiwitxw training and  24 that you maintain the standards that they expect of  25 you as the chief designate.  26 Q   And could you indicate starting first with your  27 wilksiwitxw, who would have given you the  28 training?  29 A   Certainly Lelt would play a part.  30 THE COURT:  I am sorry?  31 A   Lelt.  32 THE COURT:  Thank you.  33 A  Would play a part in telling you about my father's  34 adaawk.  35 MR. JACKSON:  36 Q   And what is his position?  37 A   He's the head chief the House of Lelt.  Haalus is the  38 head chief of Haalus.  Certainly Sinankxws, a wing  39 chief for Haalus, Ax goot from the House of Wii  4 0 hlengwax.  41 THE COURT:  I will need the spelling of those, please.  42 MR. JACKSON:  Miss Stevens.  43 THE TRANSLATOR:  Okay.  I will give you the number for Lelt is  44 number 40 on the plaintiffs' list.  45 THE COURT:  I am all right with Lelt and Haalus, but the name of  46 the chief in his House?  47 A  Wii hlengwax. 4979  J. Ryan (for Plaintiffs)  In Chief by Mr. Jackson  1 THE TRANSLATOR:  Number 696 on the word list.  2 THE COURT:  Yes.  That's the name of the chief?  3 THE TRANSLATOR:  Yes.  4 THE COURT:  And the name of the House.  5 MR. JACKSON:   I think the witness said that was the wing chief,  6 my lord.  7 THE COURT:  I think she gave me Haalus and his wing chief and  8 then she --  9 A   No.  10 MR. JACKSON:  11 Q   Perhaps you can clarify that.  12 A   Yes.  Sinankxws is the wing chief for Haalus.  Haalus  13 is the head chief for Haalus.  14 THE COURT:  All right.  15 THE TRANSLATOR:  Ax goot is 522.  16 THE COURT:  Yes.  17 THE TRANSLATOR:  On the word list and Wii hlengwax is 76 on the  18 plaintiffs' list.  19 MR. JACKSON:  20 Q   And was there anyone else on your father's side?  21 A   Luulak, the head chief for the House of Luulak.  22 Q   And those --  23 THE COURT:  I am sorry, Mr. Jackson.  I don't have that one.  24 THE TRANSLATOR:  41 on the plaintiffs' list.  25 THE COURT:  41.  Thank you.  Thank you.  2 6 MR. JACKSON:  27 Q   And the elders or the chiefs in those four Houses,  28 those four Houses are all from your father's wii' na  29 t'ahl, your wilksiwitxw?  30 A   Yes.  Yes.  31 Q   On your mother's side who would you have received  32 training in?  33 A   Certainly my mother.  Gwaans.  34 Q   Yes.  Who else?  35 A  My great uncle Jeffery Johnson before he passed on.  3 6 Q   Who held the name Hanamuxw?  37 A   Yes.  Who held Hanamuxw before I did?  38 Q   Were there any other elders?  39 A  Well, certainly the head chiefs from Gisk'aast,  40 Guxsan, Xsgogimlaxna.  41 MR. JACKSON:  Do you have numbers for those?  42 THE COURT:  I have Guxsan.  What's the second one?  43 A   Xsgogimlaxna.  44 THE COURT:  Wait a minute.  I have got Guxsan.  Xsgogimlaxna is  45 something different?  46 A   They are both there.  47 THE TRANSLATOR:  Xsgogimlaxna is number 87. 4980  J. Ryan (for Plaintiffs)  In Chief by Mr. Jackson  1 THE COURT:  Thank you.  2 MR. JACKSON:  3 Q   Now, and those Houses are all part of your wii 'na  4 t'ahl?  5 A   That's right.  6 Q   Could you just tell the court the nature of the  7 training and the education you would have received  8 someone in line to succeed to the name of the high  9 chief?  10 A   Certainly one of the most important things you have to  11 remember is that you know your fellow chiefs, that you  12 know how to organize a Feast.  Certainly know how to  13 delegate your authority.  Know how to select gifts for  14 your guests and make sure that you have enough to go  15 around.  That's in terms of gifts as well as food that  16 you are going to serve.  17 Q   In relation --  18 A  And certainly --  19 Q   Sorry.  2 0 A   -- knowing how much money it would take to put on a  21 Feast.  Certainly knowing what the crests are for the  22 different clans.  There are different formats for the  23 different Feasts and you have to know what the  24 purposes are for the Feasts.  Certainly you know how  25 to conduct the business within the Feast hall.  26 Certainly know how to contact the different chiefs  27 before you put on a Feast.  So usually they are group  28 meetings that take place before the Feast within your  29 wii 'na t'ahl.  And you certainly have to notify your  30 wilksiwitxw as well to get their blessing for what you  31 are doing.  32 Q   Did you receive any training in relation to the  33 histories or the laws of your House or other Houses?  34 A   You don't get it all at once.  That's the place for  35 the elders.  There are the historians for your House.  36 Q   Would any of that store of knowledge, as it were, have  37 been shared with you?  38 A   Yes.  And it's still going on today.  But I don't  39 think, or at least I wouldn't for one minute pretend  40 that I know all there is to know about our own  41 traditions.  Because there are so many things that you  42 have to remember about the different procedures that  43 you use within a Feast hall and certainly how you  44 treat your guests.  45 Q   So is your Gitksan education still continuing today?  46 A   It certainly will be until the day I die.  47 Q   You mentioned as one of the parts of your training the 4981  J. Ryan (for Plaintiffs)  In Chief by Mr. Jackson  1 importance of being able to select gifts for your  2 guests.  Are there any special gifts which have to be  3 given to anyone in particular in a Feast?  4 A   Certainly your wilksiwitxw comes first and certainly  5 the chiefs from the Houses get special gifts from you.  6 That would be all the chiefs from all the Houses of  7 the different villages.  8 Q   And do those gifts signify anything?  9 A   That those people are special.  10 THE COURT:  I am going to have to take the afternoon  11 adjournment, please, Mr. Jackson.  12 MR. JACKSON:  Yes, my lord.  13  14 (PROCEEDINGS ADJOURNED PURSUANT TO AFTERNOON BREAK)  15  16 I hereby certify the foregoing to be  17 a true and accurate transcript of the  18 proceedings herein to the best of my  19 skill and ability.  20  21  22  23 Laara Yardley,  24 Official Reporter,  25 United Reporting Service Ltd.  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  4 3 (PROCEEDINGS RECONVENED AT 3:20 P.M.)  44  45    THE REGISTRAR:  Order in court.  Ready to proceed, my lord.  4 6    THE COURT:  Mr. Jackson.  4 7    MR. JACKSON: 4982  J. Ryan (for Plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Jackson  1 Q   Yes, my lord.  Before the break you said in your  2 evidence that as the oldest child you were in line to  3 succeed to the name of Hanamuxw.  Can you tell the  4 Court whether in the education and selection of those  5 who might succeed to the name of chief any special  6 qualities are sought and encouraged?  7 A   Certainly the process of selecting the future chief is  8 an ongoing process very much like your education.  The  9 elders, who are your teachers, observe you in many  10 situations very much the same way as they observe  11 contestants in a beauty pageant.  Some of the  12 situations might be structured just to observe you and  13 see how you handle it or there could be situations  14 that come about naturally and they have -- they are  15 there with you and they observe whether you have the  16 necessary qualities that they expect a chief to have.  17 There are many of them, and I think one of the  18 most important ones that they need to see in you as  19 the future candidate for a chief is the idea that you  20 accept your creator, the protection that he gives you,  21 the guidance, the wisdom that he provides for you.  22 The idea that you respect your elders at all times.  23 You have to make sure that you incorporate in every  24 activity that you do the plan that your creator has  25 for you and that you have to acknowledge his lordship  26 over your life.  You have to accept the fact that you  27 will be responsible in protecting the smaller  2 8 creatures in your environment.  You have to be  29 sensitive.  You have to be an independent thinker.  30 You have to be a good listener.  You have to learn to  31 be a servant, yet at the same time you hold the  32 highest title that the Gitksan nation can bestow upon  33 you.  You have to learn to handle many different  34 situations with dignity, including under duress.  You  35 have to accept one of the philosophies that our Indian  36 people have which says that all Indian people,  37 regardless of their age in relation to you as a chief,  38 are called your children.  And children is chosen as  39 the correct word to describe this philosophy, for when  40 you look at children, usually they need to be  41 protected, they need to be guided, they need to be  42 trained, and so as a chief that is part of your  43 responsibility, that your role has to be one of an  44 educator and a protector.  You -- you need to be  45 humble.  You need to be sensible.  I think I said that  46 before.  Sorry.  4 7    THE COURT:  No, you didn't. 4983  J. Ryan (for Plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Jackson  1 THE WITNESS  No.  Oh.  2 THE COURT:  Sensitive, but not sensible.  They're two quite  3 different qualities.  4 THE WITNESS:  You have to learn how to co-operate.  You learn  5 how to or at least -- how to be part of a group.  You  6 have to learn how to make split-second decisions when  7 necessary.  You have to be courageous.  You have to be  8 committed to the idea that it's your job to make life  9 better for everyone within your nation, not just for  10 your house, but for everyone within your nation, and  11 including those outside of your nation as well.  12 MR. JACKSON:  13 Q   Thank you.  Now, in addition to what you've already  14 described for us as your Gitksan education, I'd like  15 to ask you what other education you have received, and  16 perhaps we can start with your school life.  Where did  17 you first go to school?  18 A   I started my education at Gitwingax when I was eight  19 years of age.  20 Q   And what kind of school was that?  21 A   It was referred to as a day school, an Indian day  22 school.  It's a one-room school, which means that that  23 includes all grades from 1 to 7.  Sorry, 1 to 8.  24 Q   And who ran that school?  25 A   It was operated during the time when I was at school  26 by Indian Affairs.  27 Q   Okay.  And after you finished there did you go on to  28 any other education?  29 A   Certainly I went to school in Port Edward, which is 13  30 miles outside of Prince Rupert, where my parents were  31 working at the cannery there.  32 Q   Can I just stop you there one moment?  Was it unusual  33 for you as an Indian child to go on beyond the basic  34 grade-school education?  35 A   Yes, because my generation certainly is one of the  36 first generations that have to deal with change as far  37 as the life of the Indian community is concerned, for  38 it was at this point that the Department of Indian  39 Affairs granted secondary education to Indian students  40 for the first time, and I was one of four Indian  41 students who attended Booth Memorial high school in  42 Prince Rupert as a pilot programme.  You might say we  43 were the guinea pigs for secondary education.  44 Q   And so after you attended at the Gitwingax Indian day  45 school you went to Booth Memorial, and you were there  46 how long?  47 A   I was there for five years, from Grade 9 to Grade 13. 4984  J. Ryan (for Plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Jackson  1 But I did a switch during this period of my education.  2 I started out to be a secretary and decided that being  3 a secretary was not for me, for I did not enjoy taking  4 orders nor working with machines, so I decided that  5 the university entrance programme was what I needed in  6 order to go into another profession, which I did.  It  7 has meant disrupting the programme for me, for I had  8 already used a year -- I'm sorry -- two years taking  9 the commercial programme, and in order for me to  10 qualify to become a teacher, I needed the university  11 entrance programme, so that meant doing two years at  12 the university entrance programme in one.  So to cover  13 four years it meant doing it in two.  14 Q   And after you graduated and completed Grade 13 in  15 Prince Rupert where did you go from there?  16 A   I attended Victoria Normal School in 1953, '54.  17 Q   And what did you get out of that in terms of  18 qualifications?  19 A   Just what we consider today the standard certificate  20 for teaching.  21 Q   So in 1954 you finished teacher training.  What did  22 you do thereafter by way of a teaching job?  23 A   I applied for a job through the Department of Indian  24 Affairs and was informed that there weren't openings  25 in the Gitksan territory for a position of a teacher.  2 6    THE COURT:  No openings?  27 THE WITNESS:  So that meant accepting —  28 THE COURT:  I'm sorry, no openings?  29 THE WITNESS:  No openings, no job prospects in the Gitksan  30 territory.  That meant applying for a position in Port  31 Simpson, which is in the Tsimxsan territory on the  32 coast.  33 MR. JACKSON:  34 Q   And did you get a position there?  35 A   Yes, I was offered a Grade 1 position.  I had applied  36 for a Grade 2, but I was given a Grade 1 position.  37 Q   And could you just give us an outline of your career  38 thereafter as a teacher in the few years thereafter  39 getting your first job?  40 A   I'm not too sure whether I can do that in detail, but  41 I'll try.  42 Q   No, just a broad outline.  43 A   Certainly I spent three and a half years in Port  44 Simpson, roughly.  Then I applied for a transfer to  45 teach in Bella Bella, which is in the Kwakyutal  46 (phonetic) territory, and I stayed there for a couple  47 of years.  Then I applied for a position in Masset, 4985  J. Ryan (for Plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Jackson  1 B.C., which is in the Haida territory.  I was there  2 for a year and a half, then decided that I would  3 return to Bella Bella because of the kind of project  4 or school that they had in Bella Bella at that time  5 that I was interested in working in.  6 Q   And what happened when you went back to Bella Bella?  7 A   Certainly I was in Bella Bella for about a year and a  8 half, and while I was there I decided that -- based on  9 my observations of how Indian children learned to read  10 in a day school I had decided that I was going to  11 abandon the use of the prescribed curriculum, which  12 created a dispute between myself and a superintendent  13 of Indian schools.  He thought that my idea was not  14 the idea to use in a day school.  My plan was to use  15 the vocabulary of the children as opposed to the  16 controlled vocabulary that you get in a prescribed  17 text that is used in a regular classroom.  And he felt  18 that if I used that approach I would be denying the  19 children the skills that they needed in learning to  20 read the English language.  21 The method I had proposed at that time was not in  22 common use in British Columbia.  Certainly it does  23 have a name.  It's called the language experience  24 approach now or the modern jargon for it is called the  25 whole language approach.  Calling it the whole  26 language approach today means that there are a few  27 variations, but the basic foundation for that kind of  28 programme is still the same.  You learn everything  29 there is to know about the language or you're  30 encouraged to practise it as well as you know how  31 based on your own experience, personal experience,  32 rather than somebody else coming along and imposing on  33 you the kind of vocabulary that you have to learn.  34 Q   Just so I understand you, are you saying that the  35 approach you then took is now the approach which is --  36 A   It's one of the practices accepted in the B.C. schools  37 now.  38 Q   Okay.  39 A   But it was just a matter of doing it before it was  4 0 time to do it.  41 Q   And what happened in that dispute?  Was there any  42 outcome?  43 A   Yes, certainly I was told my services were no longer  44 required.  That means that as far as the federal civil  45 servants are concerned I can no longer be a federal  46 civil servant, and, therefore, I have remained as a  47 provincial civil servant. 4986  J. Ryan (for Plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Jackson  1 Q   Okay.  What position did you take after that, after  2 you were fired from the Bella Bella Indian day school?  3 A   I was ill for a couple years after that, and then when  4 it was time for me to go back to the classroom -- oh,  5 before I applied for the classroom, I worked for a  6 catering company in Vancouver called the Industrial  7 Catering Company and did all the banquet circuits in  8 Vancouver, and that was enjoyable, a nice change, but  9 then I applied for a Grade 3 position in 1965 in  10 Prince Rupert.  11 Q   And what school was that?  12 A  And that -- well, I was assigned to Conrad School, and  13 I'm still working at that school.  14 Q   And so you --  15 A   But with a different grade.  16 Q   So you've been working in that school since 1965 in  17 Prince Rupert?  18 A   That's right.  19 THE COURT:  Is that Conrad?  20 THE WITNESS:  Conrad, yes.  21 MR. JACKSON:  Madam Registrar, could you show Chief Hanamuxw  22 Exhibit 34, and I have a copy here for his lordship.  2 3    THE COURT:  Thank you.  2 4    MR. JACKSON:  25 Q   Could you tell me who is that in the middle of the  26 picture?  27 A   Joan Ryan, Hanamuxw today.  28 Q   Could you tell me what day that picture was taken?  29 A   This was November 1st, 1966.  30 Q   And what is that draped around your shoulders?  31 A   This is the blanket that was passed on to me by the  32 late Geoffrey Johnson, who held the name Hanamuxw  33 before I did.  34 Q   Now, I'd like you to cast your mind back 22 years  35 to the 1st of November, 1966, and explain to the Court  36 what you understood was expected of you as the chief  37 of the House of Hanamuxw when the blanket was placed  38 around your shoulders?  39 A   Certainly before the day of the funeral there were  40 meetings going on between the Gisk'aast, between my  41 house and the Gisk'aast chiefs, consultation with my  42 wilkisiwitxw before a final decision was made as to  43 what was going to be done about the name and the  44 territory.  45 Certainly it was left to my grandmother, Ida  46 Moore, to tell me that I had been selected by -- by  47 the people.  The people -- when I say the people, that 4987  J. Ryan (for Plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Jackson  1 meant my mother, my Auntie Dora, and certainly my  2 Grandmother Ida -- that I would be the person to  3 succeed my great-uncle, Geoffrey Johnson.  The words  4 that she gave to me were -- were important words.  We  5 were -- I guess she was doing it according to  6 tradition.  Because she's my grandmother she's the one  7 that is outlining to me some of the things that would  8 be expected of me.  She was saying that it was my job  9 to carry on the work of Hanamuxw, the work that he has  10 started in improving the lifestyles of the Gitksan  11 people.  12 My late great-uncle was heavily involved in the  13 political associations of the Gitksan as well as  14 outside of the Gitksan territory.  Certainly he had  15 activities connected with the church.  Even -- even  16 though he was a very quiet person, he was an eloquent  17 and persuasive speaker.  And certainly on November the  18 1st this conversation that took place between Ida and  19 I took place in the morning, and after hearing what  20 she had to say, that it is now my job to improve the  21 lifestyles of my people, that worried me because I  22 felt that in the modern sense it would be very, very  23 difficult to follow in his footsteps.  He had a large  24 network that he had set up amongst the Indian people  25 within the Gitksan territory as well as outside, so it  26 was not difficult for him to make contacts when it's  27 necessary, when they have to deal with important  28 issues connected with the Indian people.  29 And I guess November 1st will always stand out in  30 my mind because what happened was the funeral took  31 place three hours later after my conversation with my  32 grandmother, Suu wii gantxw, because I missed what was  33 said at the funeral service because I was so worried  34 that I may not be able to live up to the expectations  35 of the chief because I realized in looking back that  36 my great-uncle had accomplished quite a bit.  37 Q   Could you just tell me a little more about the  38 contributions of Geoffrey Johnson, the late Hanamuxw?  39 You mentioned that he had extensive connections  40 outside of the territories.  What kinds of activities  41 had he been involved in, to your knowledge?  42 A   I guess two main ones that I remember him by.  One is  43 the fishing rights for the Indian fishermen on the  44 coast, and the other one had to do with lobbying for  45 secondary education for the Indian people.  He  46 certainly worked hard at this particular aspect of his  47 leadership, making sure that the other chiefs in the 4988  J. Ryan (for Plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Jackson  1 other areas in British Columbia support him in the  2 idea that it is time for our people to adapt to the  3 change.  I can recall many meetings that they had  4 where they said that we can't avoid the changes that  5 are becoming a part of our life at the communities,  6 and, therefore, we should find ways and means of  7 accommodating those changes, and they felt that having  8 post-secondary education was one way of dealing with  9 that particular change.  10 And I would like to point out at this time that  11 when we look at the present-day situation in our  12 education field, very often the Indian children get  13 the reputation that they are not capable of handling  14 education and that the parents are not interested in  15 education.  I would like to say that it's farther from  16 the truth.  I don't think that my great-uncle or any  17 of the other leaders at that time would have been  18 making trips to Ottawa if they felt that way about it.  19 So I would like to set the record straight by saying  20 that education has always been important to the Indian  21 people, and I guess the problem has been is that we  22 have not been able to mesh the Indian education in the  23 true sense of the word and the provincial education  24 system so that it benefits the Indian students.  25 Q   You mentioned that Geoffrey Johnson, previous  26 Hanamuxw, took part in delegations to Ottawa?  27 A   Yes, and it started quite early in my life.  I know  28 that they had to raise their own funds in order for  2 9 them to send delegates to Ottawa.  And I can remember  30 back when I was around five years of age that I was  31 encouraged to do my chores at home, which included  32 gathering eggs at the barn and packing water from --  33 from the river to make sure that we have everything we  34 need for baking the cakes.  In fact, I still carry a  35 scar on my left hand when one of the roosters decided  36 to peck at me one day for taking too many eggs away.  37 But little did I know at that time that later on in my  38 life I would be playing an active part in the field of  39 education.  But those are part of my early memories of  40 what it was like to try and obtain a higher education  41 for our people.  42 Q   Could you explain to the Court, having already  43 explained the expectations which were laid on you  44 along with the name and the blanket, how you have  45 sought to live up to the expectations of a Gitksan  46 chief?  47 A   It took me a while before I decided that I would play 4989  J. Ryan (for Plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Jackson  1 an active role in promoting the idea that educating  2 our children to exist in both societies came about.  I  3 felt that before I could take an active role or an  4 active leadership role that I had to gain as much  5 experience as possible in the present system that we  6 have in British Columbia.  It wasn't until the late  7 60's that I attended a conference in Kamloops where  8 they were talking about Indian education for B.C., and  9 it was there that I met a few of the other Indian  10 teachers in B.C., and we had talked about some of the  11 problems but not necessarily the solutions to the  12 problems in Indian education.  Then two years later we  13 decided that we would pilot a cross-cultural course in  14 the University of British Columbia.  It was during  15 that time while we were attending the cross-cultural  16 course that we were also meeting together as a group  17 to discuss what we can do to improve the education of  18 our children in British Columbia.  That was the  19 beginning of the concept that we had that as teachers  20 we needed an organization that would encourage us to  21 meet together as often as possible and talk about the  22 issues that are related to the education of the  23 children, and so the association known as BCNITA came  24 into being.  25 THE COURT:  I'm sorry, B.C.?  26 THE WITNESS:  BCNITA, which is B.C. Native Indian Teacher  27 Association.  2 8 THE COURT:  N-A-T-I-A?  29 THE WITNESS:  Yes.  30 THE COURT:  That's B.C., then a separate word, N-A-T-I-A?  31 THE WITNESS:  No, it's all one word.  32 THE COURT:  All one word?  33 THE WITNESS:  All one word, yes.  34 THE COURT:  How do you pronounce it?  35 THE WITNESS:  I just call it BCNITA.  36 MR. JACKSON:  I think, my lord, that's the abbreviation of  37 British Columbia Native Indian Teachers Association.  38 It's an acronym.  39 THE COURT:  I've got it N-A-T-I-A.  40 THE WITNESS:  N-I and T and A.  41 THE COURT:  N-I-T-I-A.  Thank you.  42 THE REGISTRAR:  Just N-I-T-A, my lord.  43 THE COURT:  N-I-T-A.  Thank you.  4 4 MR. JACKSON:  45 Q   And what were the things you identified as being the  46 agenda, as it were, for BCNITA?  47 A   The first thing we had to do was learn to get to know 4990  J. Ryan (for Plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Jackson  1 one another because we came from different parts of  2 the province, we came from different tribes in the  3 province.  We had to find -- in order for us to deal  4 with the problem we had to find common issues amongst  5 us, and we had to set a list down of what our  6 priorities would be for the association.  There were  7 many, many issues at that time.  We had many, many  8 people who dropped out from school because they felt  9 that there was just no future in having a  10 post-secondary or -- I'm sorry -- a secondary or  11 post-secondary education.  12 Some of the members of the association decided  13 that maybe one of the things that we should do was to  14 train more teachers who would be familiar with the  15 problems that the Indian students have, be sympathetic  16 to them but not necessarily a deterrent to the  17 progress of the children in the public education  18 system.  And so a proposal was put together to present  19 to the Government of British Columbia saying that we  20 would like to initiate a teacher training programme  21 that would encourage native people to go into teacher  22 training.  And certainly at first the Government of  23 B.C. said, no, they didn't think that it was necessary  24 to have a separate programme for native people.  Even  25 though we told them that there were other programmes  26 in other provinces that were designed strictly for  27 native people, they still said no.  28 THE COURT:  What year, approximately, are we talking about?  29 THE WITNESS:  That would be approximately '70, '71.  3 0    THE COURT:  Thank you.  31 THE WITNESS:  At the same time we were looking for a home for  32 our programme.  We approached the three universities  33 in British Columbia, the Victoria University,  34 University of British Columbia, and Simon Fraser.  Two  35 said no, one said yes, and the one that said yes was  36 U.B.C.  The faculty —  37 MR. JACKSON:  38 Q   One moment.  Could I just stop you just for a moment?  39 A   Sure.  40 Q   At this time were you still up in Prince Rupert or  41 were you now in Vancouver?  42 A   The period I'm describing right now I was still in  43 Prince Rupert.  44 Q   Still in Prince Rupert?  45 A   Yes.  46 Q   Sorry.  47 A   No.  Okay.  The University of British Columbia said, 4991  J. Ryan (for Plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Jackson  1 yes, they would accept the programme, but we still had  2 no funding.  The Provincial Government was still  3 saying no.  The members of BCNITA had said that if  4 this teacher training programme was going to be a  5 permanent programme it had to be recognized as an  6 integral part of the teacher training programme of  7 U.B.C, that meant the funding, the staffing and the  8 resources at the University of British Columbia.  9 So it wasn't until the spring of 1974 that funding  10 from British Columbia came through, thanks to Mrs.  11 Dailly.  The faculty of U.B.C. approved the programme  12 as one of the alternate programmes for their regular  13 teacher training programme, so in September '84 the  14 teacher training programme for native students began.  15 Q   You said '84.  You mean '74?  16 A   '74.  Sorry.  I'm going to backtrack a little bit  17 here.  In 1973 I worked for Simon Fraser with teacher  18 trainees.  I worked there for a year, then moved to  19 U.B.C. and worked with teacher trainees for two years,  20 then I returned to my regular assignment in Prince  21 Rupert.  22 Q   So in 1974 a programme was established, and what was  23 the name of that programme?  24 A   The programme was called NITEP.  25 Q   And that stands for?  26 A   Native Indian Teacher Training Programme.  27 Q   And it's abbreviated to N-I-T —  28 A   Education programme.  Education programme.  29 Q   And when that was established in 1974, in addition to  30 the role you've described and the negotiating and the  31 meetings and the establishment, did you have any  32 position or role or responsibilities in the initial  33 establishment, the structure of NITEP?  34 A   Certainly just before the proposals were accepted by  35 the university and by the Provincial Government I was  36 the chairperson for BCNITA, and in 1973 I was asked to  37 be on the advisory committee for NITEP by the dean of  38 education and president of U.B.C.  39 Q   And have you been on that committee since its  40 beginning?  41 A   Yes.  I'm still a member of that committee right now.  42 Q   And do you have any particular position as a member of  43 that advisory committee?  44 A   I'm a co-chair for that committee right now.  45 Q   You're the co-chairperson?  46 A   Co-chairperson, yes.  47 Q   Before I ask you any questions about the NITEP 4992  J. Ryan (for Plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Jackson  1 programme, could you perhaps relate to the Court how  2 the work on the advisory committee and the work you've  3 done in relation to NITEP relates to your  4 responsibilities as a chief?  5 A   Certainly one of your jobs as a chief is to be an  6 educator, and certainly my job is directly related to  7 that on a full-time basis, but it doesn't stop there.  8 It has given me the opportunity to fulfil one of my  9 responsibilities as a chief and one of the ones that I  10 explained earlier where it says that I have to improve  11 the life of our people within the Gitksan society as  12 well as outside of our society.  And I feel that the  13 programme has accomplished that, that in many ways the  14 people who have graduated from this particular  15 programme have the same paper qualifications as any  16 other teacher in British Columbia and is, therefore,  17 free to apply for a job anywhere in Canada and  18 possibly other parts of the world, providing that they  19 have the right courses.  20 Q   My lord, I'm going to show the witness a paper, and I  21 believe Madam Registrar has a copy of it.  I've  22 already distributed a copy to my friends.  23 Chief Hanamuxw, I've put before you a paper  24 entitled "The Native Indian Teacher Education  25 the University of British Columbia:  A  26 Suggested Paradigm for Teacher Training with Minority  27 Groups."  The authors of this are William McEachern  28 and Verna Kirkness, and it was a panel presentation to  29 the Society for Intercultural Education Training and  30 Research at its 11th annual conference at San  31 Gimignana, Italy in the month of May 1983.  Have you  32 read this paper?  33 A   Yes, I have.  It was one of the reports presented to  34 the advisory committee for NITEP.  35 Q   Okay.  Could you explain who the authors are, perhaps  36 starting with Verna Kirkness?  37 A  Verna Kirkness is from Manitoba originally.  She's of  38 Indian ancestry.  She comes from the Cree nation.  Dr.  39 William McEachern -- I'm sorry, she has the position  40 of a professor at the University of British Columbia.  41 She's presently the director for NITEP as well as the  42 First House of Learning on the campus of British  43 Columbia.  Dr. William R. McEachern was a professor at  44 U.B.C.  He's retired and is now in Alberta.  45 Q   And having read the paper, does it present an accurate  46 description of the history and philosophy of the NITEP  47 programme? 4993  J. Ryan (for Plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Jackson  1 A   Certainly on page 5 you find excerpts from the paper  2 written by the native -- the National Native  3 Brotherhood.  4 Q   The National Indian Brotherhood?  5 A   Indian Brotherhood.  Sorry, I got the two  6 organizations mixed up.  To a large extent I would say  7 that it does reflect the philosophy behind NITEP.  8 Q   I propose to read to you the reference you've made to  9 page 5, and I was going to ask you, having read it,  10 whether or not this was a reflection of your own  11 thinking in terms of why you did the work you have  12 described to the Court.  So perhaps I'll read the  13 quote, and perhaps you can answer that question.  On  14 page 5,  15  16 "Unless a child learns about the forces which  17 shape him:  the history of his people, their  18 values and customs, their language, he will  19 never really know himself or his potential  20 as a human being.  Indian culture and values  21 have a unique place in the history of  22 mankind.  The Indian child who learns about  23 his heritage will be proud of it.  The  24 lessons he learns in school, his whole  25 school experience, should reinforce and  26 contribute to the image he has of himself as  27 an Indian.  28  29 The present school system is culturally  30 alien to native students.  Where the Indian  31 contribution is not entirely ignored, it is  32 often cast in an unfavourable light.  School  33 curricula in federal and provincial schools  34 should recognize Indian culture, values,  35 customs, languages and the Indian  36 contribution to Canadian development.  37 Courses in Indian history and culture should  38 promote pride in the Indian child, and  39 respect in the non-Indian student."  40  41 And then just a little bit below that,  42  43 "Native teachers and counsellors who have an  44 intimate understanding of Indian traditions,  45 psychology, way of life and language, are  46 best able to create the learning environment  47 suited to the habits and interests of the 4994  J. Ryan (for Plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Jackson  1 Indian child."  2  3 Let me ask you again, does that accurately reflect  4 your own understanding, your own philosophy in setting  5 up the NITEP programme?  6 A   Certainly, because in the programme we have tried to  7 incorporate into the course requirements for the  8 regular teacher training programme the native studies  9 component that would encourage Indian students when  10 they take the programme to learn a little more in a  11 short period of time their own culture.  But one of  12 the sidelights of doing this is rather an interesting  13 one.  I know that when we talk about human beings,  14 we're always saying we have to base our information on  15 scientific principles, and that's a little difficult  16 to do when you look at human beings, which are all  17 different.  One of the things we have found in  18 operating this programme is that for some of our  19 native people NITEP has been a vehicle that has  20 allowed them to sort out their own characteristics as  21 an Indian and sort out some of the characteristics  22 which they would like to adopt from the larger  23 society.  So in a sense for them it's like refining  24 and redefining sort of your own -- your own values.  25 And that certainly was not one of the things that we  26 would expect to find in putting the programme  27 together.  But, yes, we do believe in what the first  28 paragraph talks about and certainly the third  29 paragraph, and so the structure of the programme was  30 worked around those basis.  31 Q   Okay.  Could you just outline for the Court your  32 responsibilities as a member of the advisory committee  33 of NITEP?  What kinds of decisions, what kinds of  34 directions do you have to make and provide?  35 A   In structuring this particular programme one of the  36 decisions that we had to make was that our students  37 are not really familiar with the physical plant of the  38 university.  And we felt that when we look at the  39 context of the lives of our people and we look  40 particularly at the psychological barriers that were  41 created by placing our people on reservations, so that  42 when you attend a school outside of your community,  43 it's the psychological, emotional problems that the  44 children have to deal with, and often that is not  45 recognized when we praise what they're doing in  46 school, when we praise their success.  And so for that  47 reason we had to negotiate with the university and 4995  J. Ryan (for Plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Jackson  1 recommend to them that the first two years of the  2 programme be done in field centres, field centres that  3 are closely located to colleges so that we meet one of  4 the requirements from the university, which says if  5 you're going to enroll in U.B.C, you have to have  6 your first year English, otherwise you're not  7 registered as a student.  So the decision to have the  8 field centres was based on the idea that we will try  9 and deal with the psychological and emotional problems  10 that the students have when they have to move into a  11 larger city or a larger plant for their schooling, and  12 so field centres were established to accommodate that.  13 THE COURT:  I'm going to have adjourn, Mr. Jackson.  Is this a  14 convenient time?  15 MR. JACKSON:  That will be fine, my lord.  16 THE COURT:  Yes.  All right.  Thank you.  Ten o'clock tomorrow  17 morning.  18 THE REGISTRAR:  Order in court.  Court will adjourn until 10:00  19 a.m.  20  21 (PROCEEDINGS ADJOURNED AT 4:00 P.M.)  22  23 I hereby certify the foregoing to be  24 a true and accurate transcript of the  25 proceedings herein to the best of my  26 skill and ability.  27  28  29  30 Leanna Smith  31 Official Reporter  32 United Reporting Service Ltd.  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47


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