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Delgamuukw Trial Transcripts

[Proceedings of the Supreme Court of British Columbia 1988-02-29] British Columbia. Supreme Court Feb 29, 1988

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 3859  29 February 1988  Vancouver, B.C.  THE REGISTRAR:  Order in court.  In the Supreme Court of British  Columbia, this Monday, February 29, 1988.  Delgamuukw versus Her Majesty the Queen.  I caution you, witness, you are still under oath.  9 DAN MICHELL, a witness called on  10 behalf of the Plaintiffs, having  11 been previously sworn, testifies  12 as follows:  13  14 THE COURT:  All right.  Mr. Rush?  15 MR. RUSH::  Just before my friend begins, my lord, I wanted to  16 advise you that Ms. Mandell had a baby, seven pounds  17 six ounces; her name is Sara Leslie, and both the  18 baby and the mother are doing well.  19 THE COURT:  Well, we are delighted, and please convey our  2 0 compliments to Ms. Mandell and to the young  21 gentleman.  22 MR. GOLDIE:  If the child is tendered as an exhibit, no  23 objection to admission, my lord.  This morning --  24 THE COURT:  Certified copy will suffice, I think.  25 MR. GOLDIE:  My lord, the first item of business.  As you  26 understand it was the discussion of my request that  27 documents relating to the B.C. special fund which  28 are on file with the Moricetown Band be produced  29 under Rule 26 (1).  I am ready to make my submission  30 on that if that's satisfactory to your lordship and  31 my friends.  32 MR. GRANT:  Yes.  Before my friend starts, my lord, I am just  33 waiting -- there is some correspondence and  34 documents for my friend which should be over  35 eminently and the documents I am -- the documents  36 which I have been instructed fit within that  37 category.  I have had an opportunity to review them  38 and I have received instructions to produce those  39 documents to my friend so there is no need for him  40 to make a submission at this point.  As I said, they  41 will be over eminently, the correspondence.  42 THE COURT:  All right.  Is that satisfactory, Mr. Goldie?  43 MR. GOLDIE:  Yes.  In that case, my lord, I propose continuing  44 with Mr. Michell's cross-examination and we were  45 discussing on the date of adjournment a week ago  46 Friday the band council's timber sale licences in  47 connection with the sawmill and I would like to THE  MR.  1  2  3  4  5  6  7 THE  8 MR.  9  10  11  12 THE  13 MR.  14 THE  15 MR.  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  3860  place again before you the book of documents  relating to the -- it starts with the --  COURT:  It is the Timber Supply Licence Book, is it?  GOLDIE:  It is -- it is a black cover and it contains within  it documents which have already been marked as  Exhibit 271, 272.  REGISTRAR:  It is the first tab, my lord.  271.  GOLDIE:  Mr. Michelle, you may recall that I drew your  attention to some handwritten notes of a meeting at  which you were present and it is under tab 9, my  lord.  It is Exhibit 282 —  Tab 9.  Tab 9, the first tab 9.  Yes.  COURT:  GOLDIE  COURT:  GOLDIE  Q  And it's dated November 27, 1985, Minutes of Meeting  with Moricetown Band, Re: T.S.L.'s A17916 and  A16816.  Now, Mr. Michell, you may recall that we have  been talking so far about that second numbered  licence, A16816, and that was the licence which  granted to the Band a quota, and I now want to refer  you to tab 10 which is a document headed Timber Sale  Licence Cutting Permit, Timber Sale A16816, Cutting  Permit 021.  Do you have that in front of you now?  A    Yes.  Q    Paragraph 26:  "The term of this cutting permit shall begin on  May 31, 1986."  Just pausing there.  That was the date that the Band  anticipated the renovations to the sawmill would be  complete and the sawmill would be ready to go.  Am I  correct in that?  A    Yes, that the owner was going to be upgraded and  they found out it wasn't good enough.  Q    And one of the things that you were going to do was  to bring in three phase power?  A    Yes.  Q    And that had to come in from what, the Smithers  Airport?  A    I don't know where they got it from.  That's what  was required and then we --  Q    But a transmission line had to be brought in?  A    Yes.  Q    To the sawmill? 1  A  2  Q  3  4  A  5  Q  6  7  8  9  10  A  11  Q  12  13  A  14  Q  15  A  16  Q  17  A  18  Q  19  20  21  A  22  Q  23  24  25  A  26  27  Q  28  A  29  30  Q  31  A  32  Q  33  A  34  Q  35  36  37  38  A  39  Q  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  3861  Yes.  To bring in that power.  Now, that's supplied by the  B.C. Hydro and Power Authority, is it?  Yes.  And so far as you are aware, the power that is  brought to the sawmill by that line is not generated  in the claims area that is in question here, is it?  Do you know of a generating station where  electricity is generated?  Yeah.  Which is the source of the power that is utilized at  the sawmill?  Well, it's right in that reserve.  Well, that's where --  Yes, in that --  That's where the line ends, does it?  The land is set aside just for that purpose.  Just so that the transformers can be put up on a  couple of poles and the energy then taken into the  sawmill?  Yes.  My question to you related to the creation or  generation of that electricity, in other words, at  the other end of the --  Yes.  It is leased to me in my name, that property  itself where it is generated.  And where is that, please?  Right in that mill site, that whole mill site is  leased to me.  Leased to you?  Yes.  Site in trust with the bank.  Well now, that's where the energy is utilized?  Yes.  But do you know where it comes from, and I am not  talking about at the reserve, I am talking about  where the energy is generated at a Hydro Electric  plant?  No.  I don't know where it is coming.  Now, the cutting permit that I have directed your  attention to under tab 10 was the means by which  you, the Band, utilized the licence that was granted  in 1982 and I direct your attention to the last page  which is a map.  Now, to your recollection, is the  cutting permit that was to be commenced in May of  1986 recognizable by you from that map?  One corner  of it is marked by Atrill Creek.  Do you know where  that is? 1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  2 5 MR.  26  27 THE  2 8 MR.  2 9 THE  3 0 MR.  31 THE  32  33  34  35  3 6 MR.  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  3862  A    Yes.  Q    Does that accord with your recollection that in 1986  the Band began to take quota timber off a block up  near Atrill Creek?  A    Yes.  Q    Has the Band completed logging that particular area?  A    Six block in there.  I don't know which one you are  talking about.  Q    Beg your pardon?  A    Six squares in there.  I don't know what you are  talking about.  Q    One boundary is marked by the hydro right of way, is  it not?  A    I don't understand which one you mean.  Q    Well, if I may direct your attention to the -- what  appears to be the western boundary is a double line?  A    Oh, yeah.  Q    From your recollection of the ground, is there a  hydro right of way that runs up alongside of that  block?  Yes.  Is logging still going on in that block or have you  moved to another one?  Yeah.  They moved to further one up.  All right, thank you.  Could that cutting permit be  marked, my lord.  The permit or --  Well, the map is part of the permit.  Yes.  Any objection, Mr. Rush?  None.  A  Q  A  GOLDIE  COURT:  GOLDIE  COURT:  RUSH:  REGISTRAR:  Exhibit 283 tab 10.  (EXHIBIT 283 TAB 10 - LICENCE BOOK - RE TIMBER SALE  LICENCE A16816 CUTTING PERMIT 021 AND MAP)  GOLDIE:  Q  A  Q  A  Q  And under tab 11 there is a further -- another  cutting permit and there is no map attached to this  one but the term again commences May 31, 1986, and  to your recollection, was there -- was there another  cutting permit that was to come into operation at  the time the sawmill was completed?  Same date on them.  Same what?  The same one that you --  This is number 005 and the one that we just looked  at was 021.  If you don't recall, it is not 1  2  3  4  A  5  6  MR.  GOLDIE  7  8  THE  COURT:  9  MR.  RUSH:  10  THE  COURT:  11  MR.  GOLDIE  12  THE  COURT:  13  MR.  GOLDIE  14  15  (ex:  16  RE  17  18  MR.  GOLDIE  19  Q  20  21  22  23  24  25  A  26  Q  27  28  29  A  30  Q  31  A  32  33  Q  34  35  36  37  38  39  A  40  41  42  Q  43  44  45  A  46  Q  47  3863  important, but I just wondered if you recalled that  there were two cutting permits issued at the same  time?  No, I don't because this -- like I said before, it  is left to the mill manager.  Yes, all right.  I would tender that as an exhibit,  my lord.  Mr. Rush?  I have no objection.  Thank you.  That's —  284.  284 tab 11.  (EXHIBIT 284 TAB 11 - LICENCE BOOK - CUTTING PERMIT 005  LICENCE A16816)  Now, I -- the notes as I referred you to them a  minute ago under tab 9 refer to two sets of numbers,  A17916 and A16816, and we have been looking at the  documents dealing with A16816, but there was another  timber sales licence held by the Band Council, was  there not, for opportunity wood?  Before this one?  Well, at the time of this memorandum, namely,  November 27, 1985, the Band Council held two timber  sale licences, did it not?  At the same time, I don't think so.  Well, let us follow it through.  If you --  I think there was one small sale below the track  there that I remember, very small one.  Yes.  But I am now talking about a timber sale  licence and the one that we have been talking about  so far is quota.  This one I am now going to talk  about with you deals with what is known as  opportunity wood.  Are you familiar with that  phrase, "opportunity wood"?  I think that was the first time that same area was  given to the Band at the same time that John  Bearback got --  Well, we will come to that in a minute.  But the  term "opportunity wood" refers to over age, decadent  timber; is that right?  Yes.  And its primary use is to be chipped for a pulp  mill? 1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  THE COURT:  MR. GOLDIE:  Q  A  Q  A  Q  3864  A    Yes.  MR. GOLDIE:  All right.  Well now, if you look under tab 1 of —  tab 1 of the second series, my lord.  Yes.  And it is a letter from the Moricetown Carrier Band  to Mr. Biickert, B-double-i-c-k-e-r-t of the B.C.  Forest Service dated December 10, 1982, and it's  signed by Mr. Whipp.  At that time he was the Band  manager?  Yeah.  And Mr. Fricke who you told us was --  The sawmill manager.  Sawmill manager.  And this letter reads, and I  quote:  "Please accept this package as the Moricetown  Band's and Sawmills' application for an  additional cutting licence to cut 43,200 cubic  metres of opportunity wood in the area west of  Moricetown."  There is an enclosed cruise compilations, forester's  report on the feasibility of the expanded operation.  Next paragraph:  "Negotiations with B.C. Timber for purchase of  chips are proceeding favourably.  A letter of  intent to purchase is expected to be signed in  January.  Since we would like to get an early start on  the purchasing of equipment, the construction  of a spur line and the planning for an  increase cut an early decision is requested,  so we can begin cutting in the winter of 1983.  This application ends two years of planning  for the Moricetown Band who look forward to  hearing from you in the near future."  Now, does that recall to your mind the fact that  in December of 1982 an application was made for a  licence to cut opportunity wood?  A    I believe this is dealing with the same area.  Q    Yes, but it is dealing with a different type of  wood, isn't it?  A    Well, you see, like I explained before in the court  that we had whole yard full of pulp wood piled and 1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  MR.  THE  MR.  3865  they didn't know what to do with it, couldn't sell  it, so Moricetown and Band manager went in the hole  on it so then they started to think about changing  the way of cutting again.  Q    Well —  A    So they are dealing with the same area, same  proj ect.  Q    I am going to come to that in a minute.  But would  you not agree with me that one timber sale licence  dealt with what I call good wood, it could be sawn  up into lumber; and the other one dealt with  decadent wood which had to be chipped to make it  worth anything?  A    Well, I don't know.  They been a lot of changes in  that same area there and same with the sawmill too  in order to try to make it feasible.  Q    Right.  But you don't have any doubt that this is a  copy of a letter that the Band wrote in December  1982 requesting the right to cut opportunity wood,  do you?  Well, they were working on it and I don't know how  they arrived at writing this letter.  All right.  You accept this as --  Well, it is a task and it is given to the managers  and they handled it and we don't get ourself  involved.  Mr. Whipp, the Band manager, and Mr. Fricke who was  the sawmill manager?  Yes.  I tender that as an exhibit.  Just the letter or the letter attachments.  I am sorry, it will be the letter and the attachment  but, before tendering it, I want to ask Mr. Michell  a couple of questions about the attachment.  Now, attached to this letter is a document and,  if you just turn the page over, Mr. Michell, is a  document entitled Moricetown Carrier Band  Application To Harvest Opportunity Wood West Of  Moricetown, November 1982.  And then if you turn  over the page to page, at the bottom right-hand  corner, 3, I want to read you from the summary?  A    Page 3?  Q    Right at the bottom there is a 3.  It is a 3  preceded by five zeroes.  Under the summary the  first paragraph:  A  Q  A  A  GOLDIE:  COURT:  GOLDIE:  Q 3866  1 "The Moricetown Indian Band currently  2 operates a small sawmill capable of producing  3 15 to 20 thousand board feet of rough lumber  4 per day, requiring about 18,000 cubic metres  5 of sawlog timber per year.  The present mill  6 was purchased in 1980 and has successfully  7 operated as a business since opening, showing  8 a profit in spite of difficult economic  9 conditions.  10 Until the Band was granted a Timber Sale  11 Licence (Major)  in August 1982 for 15,000  12 cubic metres per year, the sawmill operated by  13 milling a small quantity of timber from the  14 Moricetown Reserves and purchasing the  15 occasional small timber sale."  16  17 And that accords with your recollection, does it  18 not, Mr. Michell?  19 A    Yes.  20 Q    Continuing:  21  22 "While the Timber Sale Licence comes close to  23 supplying enough timber to sustain the current  24 single shift, there appears to be potential  25 to expand lumber production and develop a  26 chipping operation by harvesting decadent  27 timber stands west of Moricetown.  The Band  28 feels an expanded operation utilizing an  29 additional net volume of 43,200 cubic metres,  30 (60,000 cubic metres gross) would be viable  31 and would greatly contribute to the  32 community."  33  34 Is that in accordance with your recollection?  35 A    Yes.  36 Q    And then the rest of the document is the support for  37 the -- for the proposal, and just turning over until  38 you come to a page with the stamp number 10 on it in  39 the lower right-hand corner there is a map.  Now,  40 this is approximately the same area as the quota  41 licence that we looked at a week ago and I believe  42 that you gave in your evidence a few minutes ago it  43 is in the same area with Corya Creek at one part and  44 John Brown Creek about two-thirds of the way down  4 5 the map?  46 A    Yes.  47 MR. GOLDIE:  My lord, I don't intend to go through this document 1  2  3  4 THE  5 MR.  6 THE  7 THE  8 THE  9 THE  10 MR.  11 THE  12 MR.  13 THE  14  15  16  17  18  19 MR.  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  4 6 MR.  47  Rush?  284, my lord, marked":  3867  in any great detail but I would ask that it together  with the letter of December 10 be marked as a single  exhibit.  COURT:  Thank you.  Mr.  RUSH:  No objection.  COURT:  Exhibit 2 85.  REGISTRAR:  Was tab 11,  COURT:  Yes, this will be 285.  REGISTRAR:  Is that with licence A17916?  GOLDIE:  Yes.  REGISTRAR:  Thank you.  GOLDIE:  It is in respect of A16816.  COURT:  Yes.  (EXHIBIT 285 - TAB 1 2nd SERIES - LICENCE BOOK - RE 17916  LETTER DATED DEC. 10, 1982 TO MR. BIICKERT FROM  MORICETOWN BAND WITH ATTACHED DOCS.)  GOLDIE:  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  GOLDIE:  If you turn over in tab 2, Mr. Michell.  Now, this  is a letter dated November 22, 1983, and it refers  to a letter from Mr. Harding dated November 17, 1983  which appears to be an application for an  opportunity wood licence.  Mr. Harding by that time  was the Band manager?  Yes.  In 1983. This letter from Mr. Wenger to the  Moricetown Band Council states in the second  paragraph:  "The licence will require one months  advertising prior to public auction or sealed  tender award.  Since our discussions indicated  that a late June award date would be  satisfactory to you, we propose to initiate  advertising in May 1984."  Now, I'd like your recollection about this?  Was  there not, as with the other licence, a public  advertisement and an auction of the -- of this  licence?  No.  The only one that we went for is at that time  Steve Whipp, the one that I remember.  Well, that's the only one that you remember?  Yeah.  The reason I ask you that is I am going to show you  a notice to intending bidders which is under tab 3 1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  THE COURT:  MR. GOLDIE:  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  3868  if you look under that, please?  I am sorry, tab 3.  Yes, it's head Notice To Intending Bidders T.S.L.  A17916 Opportunity Wood, and was there not an  advertisement in those terms -- it is the document  that's three pages in, my lord.  Was there not a  document in those terms indicating that an auction  would be held on August 10, 1984?  Wasn't there an  advertisement to that effect?  I couldn't recall.  You don't recall?  No.  Just turning over the page -- to page 2, the first  paragraph reads, and I quote:  "Applications for the timber sale licence will  be accepted from interested parties who 1)  currently own or operate a timber processing  facility within the Bulkley Timber Supply Area  T.S.A."  Now, that -- your sawmill is within the Bulkley  Timber Supply Area, isn't it?  Yes.  "Secondly, install and have operational in the  above mill within nine months of the award of  the licence whole log barking and chipping  facilities capable of utilizing opportunity  wood.  Opportunity wood is defined as follows:  A log which contains more than 33 and a third  percent of firm wood suitable for the  manufacturer of chips but may not be  suitable for the manufacturer of lumber."  And it was your intention to have whole log barking  and chipping facilities in place within nine months,  wasn't it?  Yes.  In fact, the terms of this advertisement meant that  only the Band could get that licence?  Wasn't that  the intention?  There has just been change in all these here and  like, within that same licensing.  Like there was  one awarded to Moricetown, and after that there has  been changes in there and I don't think that anybody 1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  11 MR.  12  13 THE  14 MR.  15 MR.  16  17 MR.  18 THE  19 THE  2 0 THE  21 MR.  22  23  24  25  26  2 7 MR.  28  29  3 0 MR.  31  32 MR.  33  34  35  36 THE  37 MR.  38 THE  39 THE  40  41  42  43  4 4 MR.  45  46  47  A  Q  A  GOLDIE:  COURT:  RUSH:  GOLDIE:  3869  has bid on it.  Your recollection is that nobody else bid on this  licence?  No.  It was the same -- the first time around when  P.I.R. was going to bid on it but then it was  awarded to Moricetown.  They were the bidder and no  one else bid on it.  In fact P.I.R. didn't bid on it?  No, they didn't.  They were there but they didn't  after we told them what we were doing.  My lord, I tender the letter of November 22, 1983  as the next exhibit.  Mr. Rush?  It is the letter of November 22,  a problem with that,  will be 286.  Which tab?  Under tab 2.  1983.  RUSH:  Yes.  I don't have  COURT:  All right.  Tab 2  REGISTRAR:  286.  COURT:  And tab 3 will be.  GOLDIE:  Tab 3 I will tender the Notice of Intending  Bidders.  (EXHIBIT 286 -  TAB 2, 2nd SERIES - LICENCE BOOK -  DATED NOV. 22, 1983 FROM MR. HARDING)  LETTER  RUSH:  I just want to state, my lord, that I don't think we  have the same degree of knowledge of the witness on  that.  RUSH:  His evidence is that he doesn't know of it, can't  speak to it basically.  GOLDIE:  I agree that he cannot speak in detail but I  confirmed that there had been an auction of which  the Moricetown Band was the only bidder in respect  of this timber sale.  Yes.  I think he went that far, didn't he, Mr. Rush?  Yes, he went that far.  I think it can be marked as 287.  COURT:  RUSH:  COURT:  REGISTRAR:  287, tab 3, second series,  (EXHIBIT 287 TAB 3, 2nd SERIES - LICENCE BOOK -  A17916 NOTICE TO INTENDING BIDDERS)  GOLDIE:  Under the same tab is a letter dated October 24,  1984 addressed to the Moricetown Band Council:  Attention Mr. Harding from Mr. Braithwaite of the  Bulkley Forest District of the Ministry of Forests, 1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  MR.  THE  THE  A  GOLDIE:  COURT:  3870  "Dear sir:  Enclosed please find your copy of  completed Timber Sale Licence (Major)  opportunity wood A17916.  Before carrying out any operations under  this licence, please read your document and be  prepared to comply with all conditions set  out therein."  And then attached to that is a document which is  headed Timber Sale Licence Number A17916 made as of  August 10, 1984, and is that your signature on the  last page, Mr. Michell?  Yes.  All right,  licence as  288.  I tender the letter and the attached  the next exhibit.  REGISTRAR:  tab 3, second series,  (EXHIBIT 288 TAB 3 2nd SERIES - LICENCE BOOK - A17916  LETTER DATED OCT. 24, 1984 TO MR. HARDING FROM MR.  BRAITHWAITE WITH TIMBER LICENCE AZ17916)  MR.  GOLDIE:  Q  A  Q  A  Now, that was in October of 1984, and I want to  direct you to the next document which is under tab 4  which is a letter dated April 12, 1985.  Do you have  that before you?  Yes.  And that's addressed to the district manager and it  states that:  "We herewith submit the Management and Working  Plan for Timber Sale Licence A17916 (Major) in  compliance with Section 2.00 of the Timber  Sale Licence document.  We propose two major changes to the  presently approved and overlapping chart areas  of T.S. A16816 and A17916."  And then what is proposed there is a change in the  boundary line of the overlapping areas so as to  distinguish the younger, healthy timber of sawlog  quality from the decadent stands.  Is that right?  Well, I don't know about this.  I wouldn't say as I  never go out in the timber and work with these 3871  1 people that are working.  You know, we have the Band  2 manager.  3 Q    Yes.  You signed this letter, did you not?  4 A    Yes.  I know I did, but they took care of it.  Like  5 I say, they are given the task to work it out so we  6 don't tell them how to do it.  They do it best way  7 they know how to do it.  8 Q    I am sorry, did you finish?  9 A    Well, like I said, the manager -- we feel that he  10 knows what he is doing so he is hired to do the job  11 and we don't keep track of everything that he does.  12 Q    Would it be fair to say this:  That at the time you  13 signed this letter --  14 A    Yes.  15 Q    -- you knew what was being done in general terms and  16 it was in accordance with the manager's  17 recommendations?  18 A    Well, they said they needed some changes so he had  19 to go do it.  That's what he tells me.  When you see  20 that, how many pages there, he doesn't go read it  21 all for me, you know.  He just explain that there  22 need to be some change made so he had to do it and  23 then I signed it.  24 Q    And then the next document is headed, which is  25 attached to it, is headed Management and Working  26 Plan for Timber Sale Licence A17916 (Major)  27 Moricetown Carrier Band for the period January 1,  28 '85 to December 31, '89, and it is prepared by Mr.  29 Philpot and you have signed it as the chief council?  30 A    Yes.  31 Q    Now, the next page is a key map on a scale of one to  32 500,000 and it shows two outlying areas.  The  33 northern one is T.S.L. A16816 and A17916 and the  34 southern one is headed T.S.L. A17916 area of  35 interest.  Now, was it your understanding that there  36 was both decadent and sawlog quality timber in the  37 area that is right immediately west of Moricetown  38 and is headed -- and is marked on this map with the  39 two timber sale licences?  They are in the same  40 area.  There was both good quality and decadent  41 stands of timber, isn't that your recollection?  42 A    No.  I thought some patches were some timbers in the  43 whole area.  44 Q    I am sorry?  45 A    It is some patches, good timber and some about like  46 60 to 70 percent of rotten timber.  The whole area  47 was like that, it is to my understanding, but I 1  2  Q  3  4  A  5  Q  6  A  7  Q  8  A  9  Q  10  11  12  13  A  14  15  Q  16  A  17  Q  18  19  20  21  A  22  Q  23  24  25  26  27  28  A  29  30  31  32  Q  33  34  35  36  37  A  38  39  MR.  GOLDIE:  40  THE  COURT:  41  THE  WITNESS  42  THE  COURT:  43  44  THE  WITNESS  45  46  THE  COURT:  47  MR.  GOLDIE:  3872  didn't know it was separated like this.  But so that within that area where those two numbers  appear?  Yes.  There were patches of good sawlog quality timber?  Yes, and some --  Some rotten timber?  Yes.  Or decadent timber.  But then below that line which  is area of interest of the T.S.L. A17916, within  that area, you are only going to be given the right  to cut the decadent timber?  I didn't know which area but they told me about it,  like Warner William and Ernie Harding.  All right.  They look after all that.  Now, the purpose of the opportunity wood licence was  to cut decadent timber and to clear it off so that  good sound timber could grow in its place; is that  right?  Yes.  Now, and one of the differences between the quota  licence and the opportunity wood licence was that  per quota you paid stumpage to the Province to take  the sawlogs off; isn't that right?  The Band -- the  Band had to pay money to the province as it removed  sawlogs that were under the quota licence?  I would -- only reason I believe there was is  because I know that he -- Fricke didn't pay for it  when he resigned and Ernie had to make some  arrangement to make that thing payable.  Yes, but under the opportunity wood licence the  stumpage was nominal; that is to say, it was zero or  very little because you were taking off decadent  logs that had to be for the most part chipped for  pulp wood?  Well, I don't know.  Just like I said, I am not  involved in it too much, you know.  All right.  I accept that.  It was different, was it?  :  Pardon?  It was a different arrangement for the opportunity  wood?  :  I guess so, but I wasn't really involved in it,  how it set up there.  All right. 3873  Now, the document that is the management and working  plan for the period January 1, '85 to December 31,  '89, that was as you understood it the proposal on  the part of the Band of how it was going to utilize  the timber under the opportunity wood licence.  That's what you understood at the time?  What you are saying is that the good timber and  rotten timber separated in area.  Is that what you  are telling me?  Well, the proposal that was being made was that --  Well, if it is done that way, then I didn't know  about it.  I thought there was just selecting the  timber out of the same area which they take some  good timber out to the mill and rotten one for the  pulp.  Well, I think -- I don't think the location of the  trees changed?  No.  It was -- it was to define the boundary a little  better and one of the reasons for that is that, I  suggest to you, is that within the quota area there  was a stumpage payable on sawlogs and within the  opportunity wood area, you didn't have to pay the  province anything; they wanted to get rid of that  decadent timber?  Well, I didn't know about that so --  All right.  Could you please, before we leave this,  look at the management plan at page 8 of the lower  right-hand corner.  The allowable cut -- well, I  won't bother you with that right now.  May that  document be marked, my lord, which is the Moricetown  Band letter of April 12, '85 which is attached to  the management and working plan?  34 THE REGISTRAR:  Exhibit 289, my lord.  35 THE COURT:  Yes.  36 THE REGISTRAR:  Tab 4, second series.  37 THE COURT:  They will both be Exhibit 289?  38 MR. GOLDIE:  Yes.  39  40 (EXHIBIT 289, TAB 4, 2nd SERIES - LICENCE BOOK A17916 -  41 LETTER DATED APRIL 12, 1985 TO DIST. MANAGER WITH  42 WORKING PLANS)  43  44 MR. GOLDIE:  Now, there is a letter of acknowledgement right at  45 the end of that tab dated May 16, 1985 from the  46 Forest Service and perhaps --  4 7 THE COURT:  Tab 4.  1  Q  2  3  4  5  6  7  A  8  9  10  Q  11  A  12  13  14  15  16  Q  17  18  A  19  Q  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  A  2 7 MR.  GOLDIE  28  29  30  31  32  33 1  MR.  GOLDIE  2  3  THE  COURT:  4  MR.  GOLDIE  5  THE  COURT:  6  MR.  GOLDIE  7  THE  COURT:  8  MR.  GOLDIE  9  THE  COURT:  10  MR.  GOLDIE  11  12  THE  COURT:  13  14  MR.  GOLDIE  15  THE  COURT:  16  MR.  GOLDIE  17  Q  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  A  26  27  Q  28  29  30  31  32  A  33  MR.  GOLDIE  34  35  36  37  38  THE  COURT:  39  MR.  GOLDIE  40  Q  41  42  A  43  Q  44  45  46  47  3874  Perhaps it would be convenient to have it included  in that exhibit.  What is the date of the acknowledgement?  May 16, 1985.  Where do you say it is?  It is right at the end of that tab number.  No, my last page is still part of Appendix 7.1.  The number is 53 and 54, the stamped number.  My copy is not the same, Mr. Goldie.  Well, it appears -- maybe it is -- mine has the  only one of that.  In that case it is not material.  How many pages do you have in Exhibit 289, Mr.  Goldie?  It starts at page 1 and it goes through to page 76.  Yes, all right.  Now, my lord, under tab 5 is an amendment to the  timber sale licence undercover of a letter dated  October 18, 1985.  It is put in here to complete the  timber sale licence itself.  I don't imagine that  Mr. Michell was familiar with it but if you'd just  be good enough to look under tab 5, Mr. Michell,  just to clear that.  Do you recall being advised of  that letter and of the enclosure?  No.  Like I said, I just couldn't -- so many of  those changes that's been happening.  Right.  All right.  Now, while the licence -- the  opportunity wood licence itself was issued in  October of 1984 following the auction on August 10,  1984, in fact, the mill wasn't operating at that  time, was it?  No, I don't think so.  It was -- that was the subject matter of the  meeting that you held with the Forestry people in  November 1985 which is Exhibit 282 now and is under  tab 9 of the first series.  This is tab 9, my lord,  in the first --  Yes, I have it.  Now, we talked about this meeting and you didn't  have a clear recollection of it?  No.  You said there were a number of meetings.  But I  want to come back to this now because we are now  talking about both licences.  Both licences by  November 1985 had been granted as we have seen but  the mill wasn't operating because the renovations 1  2  A  3  Q  4  5  6  7  A  8  Q  9  A  10  Q  11  12  13  14  15  A  16  Q  17  18  19  A  20  21  Q  22  23  A  24  Q  25  26  27  A  28  Q  29  30  A  31  32  Q  33  A  34  Q  35  A  36  Q  37  38  39  A  4 0 MR.  GOLDIE:  41 THE  COURT:  42  43 THE  WITNESS  4 4 MR.  GOLDIE:  45  Q  46  47  A  3875  hadn't been completed; had they?  No.  And these notes reflect the fact that the mill --  you had purchased the Number 2 North Wood Mill, the  barker was ordered and the chipper had been  purchased and the mill footings were in place?  Yes.  But there wasn't any wood being cut?  No.  And wasn't that a matter of concern to the Forestry  Service that these licences had been issued but no  cutting had taken place under the licences?  Weren't  they concerned about what they called undercutting?  Do you recall that?  Undercutting?  Meaning that you weren't cutting logs in the woods  to the total that you were allowed to cut under the  licence?  Oh, yeah.  Well, I guess they would be because we  weren't cutting at all.  And you understood that technically the licences  could be cancelled?  That's right.  Yes.  But in fact both those licences are in good  standing today and the mill is now operating all  year round; is that not correct?  Beg your pardon?  Isn't the mill now operating 12 months out of the  year?  No.  We had to shut down last spring because they  didn't have enough timber --  I see.  -- in the yard.  Well, the mill is operating today, isn't it?  Yes.  You were able to cut enough that you were able to  haul it into the mill and it's now both cutting  sawlogs and it's chipping pulp?  Yes.  Logs.  Right.  I am sorry, did you say that the shut down last  spring was for shortage of logs?  :  Yeah.  Well, that wasn't because you didn't have the  licences?  No. 1  Q  2  A  3  Q  4  5  6  7  8  9  A  10  11  Q  12  A  13  14  Q  15  A  16  17  Q  18  19  20  21  A  22  23  Q  24  A  25  26  27  28  Q  29  30  31  A  32  Q  33  A  34  Q  35  A  36  37  Q  38  39  A  40  41  Q  42  A  43  44  Q  45  A  4 6 THE  COURT:  47 THE  WITNESS  3876  It was because --  Early spring break up.  Yeah.  So isn't the situation today that you -- that  the mill is in the same position as somebody holding  a tree farm licence in the sense that you have a  licence for quota which is a ten year renewable  supply of sawlogs.  That's what one licence gives  you, isn't it?  Well, like I say, I don't understand that there was  two ways of doing it there.  I still don't today.  Well, you have the quota?  All I know is that they are logging now in that same  area.  Yes?  And I just don't know what changes been added in  there with the Forestry.  But unlike the situation before August of 1982, you  now have a supply of logs -- sawlogs for ten years  renewable, pulp logs, just as fast as you can cut  them?  Isn't that the situation?  No.  I didn't understand it that way like I said to  you.  I just didn't know how.  But you have got a balance now?  All I know is that they logging out of there and I  thought they were just separating the rotten one  from the sound one.  That's to my understanding.  I  just didn't know how it was set up.  Well, I suggest you are right in your understanding.  And the rotten ones are being chipped; isn't that  right?  Yes.  Put through the chipper?  Yes.  And you sell those chips to who?  Don't know what the outfit is called, Columbia  Cellulose or something.  Years ago it was Columbia Cellulose but they are  people who have a pulp mill, don't they?  Well, that's the people I met years ago when they  promised to buy our chip when we started selling.  But you are selling the chips now?  Yes.  I don't know what company they selling it to  because they sell it to different outfits.  And the chip market is a pretty good one, isn't it?  I don't know.  Where do the chips go to, Prince George?  :  No.  They haul it west or somewhere, to Kitimat I 3877  COURT:  GOLDIE:  Q  A  Q  A  Q  1  2 THE  3 MR.  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  11 A  12 Q  13  14 A  15 Q  16 A  17  18 Q  19 A  20 MR. GOLDIE:  21 THE COURT:  22 MR. GOLDIE:  23 Q  24 A  25 Q  26  27 A  28 MR. GOLDIE:  29  30  31  32  33  34 THE REGISTRAR  35  36  37  38  3 9 MR  think.  All right.  It is hauled out of there by  Either —  I am guessing again.  truck.  Prince Rupert or Kitimat?  Somewhere down there.  And the chip market is -- they will take all the  chips that you can make, can't they?  I don't know about that.  Now, the lumber that you saw from the sawlogs,  that's sold by through North Wood, is it not?  I think so.  They take your lumber and market it for you?  North Wood you say?  Yeah,  what's painted on anyway.  It is what?  They paint that on there I  I don't quite follow you.  They paint their --  I think that's  think.  that's  Oh, paint it.  They painted North Wood on their lumber.  Oh, yes.  And how many people are presently employed  in the woods and sawmill and hauling operation?  Over 30, I think.  All right.  Now, I just have a couple of more items  to deal with.  Without going through them in any  great detail, Mr. Michell, if you'd look under tab 6  of the second series -- oh, I am sorry, I do want  tab 5 marked because it contains an amendment to the  licence and I tender it for that purpose.  Exhibit 290 tab 5.  (EXHIBIT 290 TAB 5 -2nd SERIES - LICENCE BOOK -  AMENDMENT TO LIC. A17 916)  40  41  42  43  44  4 5 MR.  46  47  GOLDIE:  Q  A  GOLDIE:  I wonder, tab 6, there is a letter dated December  19, 1985 which is addressed to the Band Council,  attention Mr. Harding and I ask you if you have seen  that letter before?  I might have.  I don't -- in light of Mr. Michell's recollection  of the details, I don't propose taking it through  but I'd like the document marked as having been sent THE  MR.  THE  THE  COURT:  RUSH:  COURT:  3878  to the Band Council and relating to these two timber  sale licences.  Mr. Rush?  I can't really object.  All right, thank you.  291.  REGISTRAR:  Exhibit 291, tab 6, second series,  9  10  11 MR.  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  2 0 MR.  21 THE  22  23  24  25  26  2 7 MR.  28  29  30 THE  31  32 MR.  33  34 THE  35 THE  3 6 MR.  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47 THE  GOLDIE:  Q  A  GOLDIE:  COURT:  (EXHIBIT 291, TAB 6, 2nd SERIES - LICENCE BOOK  LETTER DATED DEC. 19, 1985 TO BAND COUNCIL)  And then under the same tab, there is a letter from  the Band Council dated February 10, 1986 requesting  changes in the cutting boundaries.  And that  document is signed by you or Mr. Philpot.  Do you  have any recollection of the details of that, Mr.  Michell?  Well, I know whenever they make some changes, then  they come to me for a signature.  I tender that as the next exhibit?  292.  (EXHIBIT 292 - TAB 6, 2nd SERIES - LICENCE BOOK -  LETTER DATED FEB. 10, 1986 FROM BAND COUNCIL WITH  ATTACHMENTS AND MAP)  GOLDIE:  And that continues right through, my lord.  They  are printed pages which winds up with number 19 and  then there is a map.  COURT:  They are all attached with Mr. Michell's letter, are  they?  GOLDIE:  Yes.  It is all part of that letter as I understand  it.  COURT:  That all will be part of 292 then.  REGISTRAR:  Thank you.  GOLDIE:  Now, there are a series of letters under tabs 7, 8,  9, and which all deal with cutting permits, my lord,  the final one being the letter of August 25, 1987.  My -- I tender these because they consist of  correspondence between the Band Council and the  Forest Service dealing with the -- with the  identification of cutting blocks and the process of  approval of that culminating in the -- in a cutting  permit which is dated September 1987.  I would ask  that these be given an exhibit number in accordance  with each tab?  COURT:  Mr. Rush, is there any problem about any of these 1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  MR. RUSH:  MR. GOLDIE  THE COURT:  3879  documents?  The only problem is the method suggested for  identifying them.  My preference would be just to  carry on as we have been doing identifying them.  I  don't really have any objection to them going in but  if it can just be identified in sequential order so  we can keep track of them.  All right.  I tender the letter from the District  Manager to the Moricetown Band Council of September  29, 1986 as the next exhibit.  That will be 293.  (EXHIBIT 293 - TAB 7, 2nd SERIES - LICENCE BOOK -  LETTER DATED SEPT. 29, 1986 TO BAND COUNCIL)  MR. GOLDIE:  And then the letter from the Forest Service to Mr.  Harding, Band Manager of April 13, 1987.  THE COURT:  Yes, 2 94.  (EXHIBIT 294 - TAB 8, 2nd SERIES - LICENCE BOOK -  LETTER DATED APRIL 13, 1987 TO BAND COUNCIL)  MR. GOLDIE:  And then the timber sale licence (Major) cutting  permit number 102 for a term beginning October 10,  1987 and dated October 30, 1987, I tender that as  the next exhibit.  THE COURT:  2 95.  (EXHIBIT 295 TAB 9, 2nd SERIES - LICENCE BOOK -  CUTTING PERMIT 102 WITH ATTACHED DOCUMENTS AND MAP)  MR. GOLDIE:  And that is the timber cutting permit which runs  from pages 8 to 17 and includes a map.  And then the  letter of the Moricetown Band Council dated August  25, 1987 to the District Manager of the Forest  Service which seeks a revision of cutting permit  102.  THE COURT:  All right.  The letter of August 25, '87 can be a  separate exhibit, 296.  THE REGISTRAR:  296.  (EXHIBIT 296 - TAB 9, 2nd SERIES - LICENCE BOOK -  DATED AUG. 25, 1987 FROM BAND COUNCIL RE REVISION  CUTTING PERMIT)  MR. GOLDIE:  Thank you.  I want to take you back to one of the  documents, an application for -- excuse me, my lord, 3880  1 I have lost the reference to my page number.  Would  2 it be convenient if we --  3 THE COURT:  Yes, all right.  I will take the morning adjournment  4 now.  5 MR. GOLDIE:  Thank you.  6 THE REGISTRAR:  Order in court.  7  8 (MORNING ADJOURNMENT AT 11:10 A.M.)  9  10  11 I hereby certify the foregoing to be  12 a true and accurate transcript of the  13 proceedings herein, transcribed to the  14 best of my skill and ability.  15  16  17  18  19  20 TANNIS DEFOE, Official Reporter  21 United Reporting Service Ltd.  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47 3881  1 (PROCEEDINGS RESUMED PURSUANT TO MORNING RECESS)  2 THE COURT:  Mr. Goldie.  3 CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR. GOLDIE:  4 Q    Mr. Michell, I want to ask you a few questions about  5 the document under tab 4 of the second series which  6 is the Management and Working Plan for Timber Sale  7 License A17916.  It is part of Exhibit 289.  Yes, I  8 think you have it.  Would you turn over, please, to  9 the first page of the working plan.  It has got a  10 three in the right-hand corner in the bottom.  Now,  11 this is the document that you and Mr. Philpot signed  12 and it is the first proposal that you made to the  13 forest service about the way in which you would  14 utilize your Timber Sale License A17196.  And we  15 looked at the map on page 4 and I now want to look  16 at the body of the document itself.  Before I do so,  17 would you tell me, please, Mr. Michell, whether the  18 hereditary chiefs instructed anybody to apply for  19 this license and to make this management proposal?  20 A    Well, they all in agreement to start up the sawmill,  21 but they didn't tell us how to do it.  22 Q    They thought the sawmill was a good thing?  23 A    Yes.  24 Q    But they didn't tell you how to go about doing it?  25 A    No.  26 Q    Now, that was done by the Band Council and the  27 foresters; is that right?  28 A    Well, in this case it was Fred Philpot was put in  29 there to lay it out, things like that.  30 Q    The Band Council hired Mr. Philpot?  31 A    Yes.  32 Q    And he prepared this and the two of you signed it?  33 A    Yes.  34 Q    Did you read it through before you signed it?  35 A    Well, like I said every time some changes are  36 made -- changes are required they said so we have to  37 do it this way and so on.  And I just have to sign  38 it because it is required when we made some changes.  39 Q    But would Mr. Philpot and the Band manager explain  40 to you what these documents are all about?  41 A    Well, like I say it is an ongoing thing.  It began  42 way back in '82.  43 Q    Yes.  44 A    I don't know how many changes that I have to sign  45 for.  This is not the only one.  46 Q    No, you signed a great many?  47 A    Yes. 1  Q  2  3  4  A  5  6  7  8  Q  9  10  11  A  12  Q  13  14  A  15  Q  16  17  18  A  19  Q  20  21  A  22  Q  23  24  A  25  Q  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  A  37  Q  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  A  3882  Yes.  But this one is the first proposal for the way  in which you are going to manage the opportunity  wood license, do you understand?  Well, they make all the arrangement, you see.  Like  I don't go through it in detail because they are the  consultant.  And they are the one that knows what  they are doing, so I just sign it along with him.  If you turn to page 7 with a stamped 7 in the lower  right-hand corner.  At the top of it it has  Management Goals, is that the page you have?  17.  Was it the intent of the Moricetown Band Council to  provide and manage an economically viable operation?  Yes.  And the primary management goal was to provide  permanent job opportunities to the Moricetown  people?  Yes.  And you intended to liquidate the old growth and  establish new forests?  Yes.  And to protect the environment in the course of  doing so?  Yes.  Next page under the heading Water Supply, Number 8:  "Corya Creek is the main water supply for  the people of Moricetown.  Development and  harvesting of timber within the Corya Creek  drainage will be conducted with the  specific objective of maintaining the  quality of water in Corya Creek."  And that's what you have done, that's how it is  logged?  That's how it is intended.  And at page 11 -- page 12, stamped page 12,  paragraph 2.234 Stand Cutting Priority.  "The priority of harvesting operations will  be as follows: (1) Stands under attack by  insects."  That is the insects which were attacking the trees.  That was to be your first priority, do you  understand that?  I guess so, yeah. 1  Q  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  A  11  12  Q  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  A  26  Q  27  A  28  Q  29  A  30  Q  31  32  33  A  34  Q  35  A  36  37  Q  38  A  39  Q  40  41  A  42  Q  43  44  45  A  46  47  Q  3883  All right.  Further up the page paragraph 2.231  Cutting Systems:  "Clearcut logging will be the harvesting  system applied to all forest types in the  license area."  That was the method of logging that you intended to  follow, clearcut logging?  Well, it was talked about where it was all rotten  timber so they had to log it all off.  Yes.  And page 29, Mr. Michell, this is the Appendix  Number 3 which is headed Resource Management  Summary.  And I am referring you to Item 8,  Traplines/Cultural Values.  I quote:  "Throughout the license area local  residents have established traplines.  Traplines are active in some areas,  currently dormant in other areas.  Appendix  IV shows the trapline boundaries."  The traplines in the area, do you remember whose  traplines they were?  I just know of one, Bazil.  Bazil?  Bazil Michell.  What about Joe Sam & Co.?  I never heard of that.  Never heard of it.  Do you know which one was active  and which one was dormant?  Was the one that you  knew about an active trapline?  Well, there is some trapping in Bazil's area.  Yes, would you classify it as an active trapline?  I think they trapping in the eastern part where  there is no logging.  Yes.  Is that a Wet'suwet'en trapline?  Yes.  Do you know what trapline is referred to as  currently dormant?  Dormant, I don't understand that word.  All right.  Well, dormant you understand is not  being used.  Did you know of any trapline that was  not being used in that area?  I know one line that is not being used, that was my  trapline.  I took it out years ago.  In that area? 1  A  2  Q  3  A  4  Q  5  6  7  8  A  9  10  Q  11  12  13  A  14  Q  15  A  16  Q  17  18  19  A  20  21  Q  22  A  23  Q  24  25  26  27  A  28  Q  29  A  30  Q  31  A  32  Q  33  A  34  35  Q  36  37  A  38  39  40  Q  41  A  42  43  Q  44  45  A  46  Q  47  3884  In that area, yes.  You no longer trapped in there then?  No.  All right.  Did you, Mr. Michell, see any difficulty  in carrying out the logging under your timber sale  licenses and the trapping which was taking place in  the area?  How do you mean?  Who is having difficulty, you mean  the trapper or the logger?  Well, either or both?  Let's take the trapper.  Did  you anticipate that the trapper would have any  problems as you carried out your clearcut logging?  They always do.  They always do?  The trappers, yes.  What did you propose -- what did the Band propose  doing about that, was it going to compensate the  trapper?  Well, I believe it would be up to the province  because they give out the timber license.  You were just going to go ahead and cut?  Yes.  Mr. Michell, this forest and sawmill operation that  the Band Council is carrying on, does it contribute  funds to the Band treasury, if I may put it that  way?  Is the Band making a profit?  No.  Not making any profit at all?  No, not yet.  Has it ever made a profit?  I don't think it did yet.  Not the old mill, no.  Not the old mill, but what about the new mill?  Well, it is just getting started now and we got to  pay yet and it is not making a profit.  When you say "making a profit", you mean you have to  pay back the money you borrowed?  Well, you see like we all understand that any  operation as big as that you at least need about  three years before you can really get going --  Yes.  -- the capacity that you want to.  Right now there  is still a lot of things to be fixed yet.  Well, could I put it this way, that at the present  time it is paying wages to the people who are there?  Yes.  And it is paying the money back to the people that  you borrowed the money from? 1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  12 MR.  13  14  15  16 THE  17 MR.  18  19  2 0 THE  21 MR.  22  23 THE  2 4 MR.  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  3885  A    I don't know the financial status of that yet.  Q    All you do know then is that it is operating right  now?  A    That's all I know.  Q    Cutting logs and shipping pulp logs?  A    Yes.  Q    Do the Band members who trap, do they pay any money  to the Band Council?  A    Trappers?  Q    Yes.  A    No.  GOLDIE:  Now, in your examination in chief Mr. Rush put  before you Exhibit 256 which is your letter of April  the 6th, 1984 to the District Manager B.C. Forest  Service.  Do you recall why you wrote that letter?  COURT:  Where will I find that, Mr. Goldie?  GOLDIE:  That is in the book of documents that Mr. Rush used  in his examination in chief.  I think it is maybe  that slim one, my lord, the black slim one.  COURT:  What was the tab number?  GOLDIE:  It is the last document and it has been marked as  Exhibit 256, under tab 6.  COURT:  Yes, thank you.  GOLDIE:  Q    That was after you had applied for the license and  before it was advertised; is that right?  A    Yeah, before we really get started.  Q    Yes.  Well, you were asked and I am referring, my  lord, to page 3705 of transcript 61.  The question  was put to you:  "Q  A  Q  A  And did you have any difficulty in  obtaining permission to log in certain  areas --  Yes.  Where you've indicated?  And were you  involved in writing any letters to  officials of the Provincial Government  with regard to this?  Well, we would go into the office and  inquire about timbers, and everytime we  were told that timbers were all taken  up by P.I.R. or some big logging  operation in the area."  Now, just pausing there  lordship have that?  I am sorry, does your 1 THE  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  MR.  THE  MR.  COURT:  GOLDIE:  COURT:  GOLDIE:  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Yes.  3705?  Yes.  Just pausing there, Pacific Inland Resources didn't  have any licenses in the area that you had a license  in, did it?  Not in that area, but all across the river.  All right.  Because we inquired about all the timber across  there for timber sale and it was taken up by the big  outfit.  So we flew over with Ken Vangalen and then  we went over to the forestry office and see if we  can get some timber across there, but we were told  it has all been taken up.  But two years before you wrote that letter --  This is the deal where that place where nobody  bought it.  That's the license we have now.  And there was nobody in there, was there?  No.  But this is the letter we only dealing with,  that correspondence that began earlier in 1982 and  that is just a follow-up.  And the same when the  changes had been made, that's the correspondence  they see.  When that letter was written you already had your  quota license and had had it for two years?  Yes.  And at the time that letter was written the sawmill  was closed down?  Yes.  I suggest to you that the forest service gave you  every assistance in getting the two licenses.  The  quota license and the opportunity wood license?  We had to go all through these correspondence just  to secure that same timber area that we are talking  about.  Yes.  And that's the only one we got now.  And that's  dealing with the same area.  You have got two licenses?  Yes.  For mature or overmature decadent timber?  Dealing with the same areas.  And it is an area that will keep your mill going for  ten years and in excess of ten years, isn't that  right?  That's what our plan was. 1  Q  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  A  19  Q  20  21  22  23  A  24  25  Q  26  A  27  28  Q  29  A  30  31  32  33  Q  34  A  35  36  37  Q  38  39  40  A  41  Q  42  A  43  Q  44  45  46  47  3887  I have some more general questions.  And I am  finished with that, Mr. Michell.  I was questioning  you about the B.C. Special and you advised me that  the Band Council might have some -- would have a  file.  And Mr. Grant has provided me with a letter  enclosing four documents and stating that:  "This is not to be taken as acquiescence or  agreement that we are entitled to the  production of any documents held in the  possession of the Moricetown Band Council."  Well, I am not going to pursue that point, my lord.  I wish to have -- I am going to show Mr. Michell a  letter dated March 6, 1980 addressed to All Chiefs  and Councils, British Columbia Region, signed by Mr.  Walchli.  Walchli.  Walchli.  And that has been produced by Mr. Grant as  from the custody of the Moricetown Band Council.  Do  you recognize that as having been received by the  Band Council while you were the chief councillor?  Yes, I remember these things, you know, things like  this are not usually in a council meeting.  Yes.  When we had the agenda this is just accepted, you  know, adopted as receipt for information.  All right.  Thank you.  And nobody bother reading it through or anything  because a letter like that you cannot deal with it  or change anything on it.  Whereas it has been dealt  with at Ottawa.  Yes, but you --  We didn't know what to do with it so the Band  Council threw it aside and said received for  information, it goes into that file.  You confirmed that this letter was received and  attached to it was a two-page document headed B.C.  Special Vote?  Yes.  Yes, all right.  I heard about B.C. Special Vote, not in detail.  All right.  And the next document which has been  produced is addressed to the Moricetown Band Council  from Mr. W.S. Muldoe, District Manager, dated  December 16, 1980 and it stated: 1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  "Your per capita share for B.C. Special  Grant for 1980-81 has been credited to your  Band Fund Trust Account.  Your Band  shares ..."  A  THE COURT:  MR. GOLDIE:  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  I can't quite make out the number.  $3,844.50 or something like that.  It looks like  "...based on a population of 697 at $5.50  per share."  Now, do you recall receiving advice that the Band  Council had received that sum of money under the  heading of B.C. Special?  Yeah, that's the same thing.  We just sort of  receive it for information.  It has been done in  Ottawa and that's all we hear about it.  And the next letter is dated February 19, 1980 to  the Moricetown Band Administration:  "We have been  advised that a per capita share of $3.67 has been  transferred to each Band Fund Trust Account."  $3.77?  $3.67, my lord.  And that's addressed February 19,  1980 and you say that came in and it was just noted  by the Band Council; is that right?  Mh'm.  Now, the third document is a statement of accounts  and it is a form made out by the Federal Government,  is it?  And it is stamped received August 13, 1987  Moricetown Band.  Now, at that time you had ceased  to be the chief councillor?  That's this year, last fall.  Last fall?  Yeah.  So you were still the chief councillor in August of  1987?  No.  All right.  Have you seen a form like that before?  Not that I can recall.  Now, this form states that there is in the Band's  capital account $124,777.22.  Now that's what you  call "back in Ottawa"; is that right?  We have two different accounts.  We have a new one  capital.  Right.  That's the capital account.  And then the  revenue account shows a balance of $114,737.38 to 1  2  3  4  5  6  7  A  8  Q  9  10  A  11  12  Q  13  A  14  Q  15  16  17  A  18  Q  19  20  A  21  22  23  24  25  Q  26  A  27  Q  28  29  A  30  31  Q  32  33  34  A  35  Q  36  A  37  Q  38  39  A  40  41  Q  42  A  43  Q  44  A  45  Q  46  A  47  Q  3889  which is added $3,993.13 for the B.C. Special giving  a total of $118,730.51.  That confirms for you, does  it not, that a B.C. Special payment in the amount of  3,900 odd dollars is added to the Band's revenue  account?  It was put into the Band's revenue  account, isn't that your understanding of it?  Yeah.  Now, what control does the Band have over that  revenue account?  Well, all the people have to have a general meeting  before they can touch that money.  That is to say the Band members?  Yes.  Yes.  And if the Band members decide to use that  revenue account for certain purposes that's what it  is used for; is that right?  Right.  Can you give his lordship some examples of how that  is done or what the uses are?  Well, the only time that we -- the Band decided to  use some of that money that I recall is to build the  new Band office where they were going to take  $11,000 from that fund.  And in the end I was told  it was not necessary.  It was not necessary?  No, the money wasn't needed.  But nevertheless, the Band has spent money out of  that account, hasn't it?  Yeah, they have to go through a lot of red tape  before they get to it.  Well, that is a very common feature of today's  world.  But nevertheless having gone through the red  tape, the Band has spent money from that account?  I can't recall which project.  Beg your pardon?  I couldn't recall just what projects.  How about the fire engine, was that bought out of  the Band's account?  The fire engine, not the one when I was in the chief  we didn't use that.  Has it been used for any sewage or water or --  No.  Anything like that?  No.  Roads?  No.  And you can't recall what the revenue account has MR.  9 THE  10 MR.  11 THE  12 MR.  13  14  15  16 THE  17 MR.  18 THE  19 MR.  2 0 THE  21 MR.  22  23  2 4 MR.  25  2 6 THE  27  28  29  30 THE  31  32  33 MR.  34  35 MR.  36  37  38  39 THE  4 0 MR.  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  3890  been used for?  Not really.  How about the capital account, has it been used to  build a school or anything of that order?  I just forgot.  I can't remember.  I see.  All right.  My lord, the letter of March 6,  1980 is under tab 1 of the documents for Dan  Michell.  I am sorry, what book of documents?  Yes, it is a Book of Documents re:  Dan Michell.  Yes, all right.  Tab 1 is the letter that has been produced by the  Band Council and that the witness now recalls he may  have seen.  I asked that that document and an  attached two pages headed B.C. Special Vote --  I am sorry, the date of March 6, 1980?  Yes.  That is Exhibit 255B For Identification.  I asked that that be accepted as marked.  Any objection, Mr. Rush?  No, my lord, but there are more documents in this  bundle and I thought that the whole bundle had been  marked for identification.  Well, I am going to delete those that the witness  can not now identify.  Well, I am not sure, but I will take it that only  the letter of March 6th has been marked for  identification, but I may be wrong in that regard so  I have it noted as having been marked.  REGISTRAR:  I have here a Letter of March 6, 1986 For  Identification To All Chiefs And Council, page 1  with attached documents 1031.  Yes, because supposedly these other documents had  been attached.  Well, all that has been produced by the Band  Council are the letter and two pages, the first  which is marked B.C. Special Vote, but there is a  PS.  A  Q  A  GOLDIE  COURT:  GOLDIE  COURT:  GOLDIE  COURT:  GOLDIE  COURT:  GOLDIE  COURT:  RUSH:  GOLDIE:  COURT:  RUSH:  GOLDIE:  COURT:  Yes.  GOLDIE:  And that comes out because that  by the witness.  THE COURT:  Yes.  All right  is not identified  Well, it seems to me that if the  other documents in Exhibit 265B are not being  tendered now we should perhaps leave 265B as it is  and make this letter of March 6, 1980 a new exhibit  which would be 297.  And that includes a letter, a  one page letter and not the post script? 3891  MR.  THE  MR.  THE  MR.  THE  THE  9  10  11  12  13  14  15 MR.  16  17  18  19  20  21 THE  22 MR.  23 THE  24  25 THE  2 6 MR.  27 THE  28  29  30  31  32  33 MR.  34 THE  35 THE  36  37  38  39  4 0 MR.  41  42  43  44  45  4 6 THE  47 THE  GOLDIE:  COURT:  GOLDIE:  COURT:  GOLDIE:  COURT:  REGISTRAR:  No.  And a second document attached marked B.C. Special  Vote two pages.  Yes, that's correct.  That will be part of Exhibit 297.  That corresponds with what has been produced by the  Band Council files.  Yes.  That will be Exhibit 297.  (EXHIBIT 297:  Letter of March 6, 1980 to All Chiefs  and Council, one page, with attached two pages of  B.C. Special Vote)  GOLDIE:  Now, the other documents produced by Mr. Grant this  morning, and which I have just discussed with the  witness, consist of a letter of December 16, 1980 to  the Moricetown Band Council stating what the per  capita share of the B.C. Special Grant for 1980,  1981 is.  COURT:  Yes.  GOLDIE:  A letter of February 19th.  COURT:  Well, perhaps that should be a separate exhibit and  that will be 298.  REGISTRAR:  298, is that tab one?  GOLDIE:  No, it is not in the back book.  COURT:  That is 298.  (EXHIBIT 298:  Letter of December 16, 1980 to  Moricetown Band from Mr. Muldow Re Per Capita  Shares)  GOLDIE:  And then the letter of February 19, 1980.  COURT:  Yes, that will be 299.  REGISTRAR:  2 99.  (EXHIBIT 299:Letter of February 19, 1980 to  Moricetown Band)  GOLDIE:  And then a ledger account headed Statement of  Accounts held by Her Majesty the Queen for the use  and benefit of Moricetown Indian Band 530 with a  date stamped received August 13,  Band showing the Moricetown B.C.  account credit of $3,993.13.  COURT:  That will be Exhibit 300.  1987 Moricetown  Special revenue  REGISTRAR:  Exhibit 300. 1  2  3  4  5 MR.  GOLDIE  6  Q  7  8  A  9  Q  10  11  A  12  13  14  15 MR.  RUSH:  16 MR.  GOLDIE  17  Q  18  19  20  21  22  23  A  24  Q  25  A  26  27  Q  28  A  29  30  Q  31  32  A  33  Q  34  A  35  36  Q  37  A  38  Q  39  40  41  A  42  Q  43  A  44  Q  45  A  46  Q  47  A  3892  (EXHIBIT 300:  Ledger Statement of Accounts  Stamped Received August 13, 1987)  Mr. Michell, turning from that for a moment, did you  ever fish on the coast, commercially that is?  No.  Did you ever take out a license to fish on the  coast?  No, I just once I went with Guy Morgan for a ride on  a boat.  And he required me to go get something like  a $5 permit in order to ride a boat out and be with  him.  Is this my copy?  No, that is the only copy I have.  Mr. Michell, I am  showing you a document that is headed Department of  Fisheries and Oceans, personal commercial fishing  license.  And it purports to be made out in the name  of Daniel Michell.  Can you recognize your signature  on that?  I don't think I signed it.  You don't think you signed that?  No.  They just give that out to you and it cost me  $5.  You do recall a time --  They requested us to have that before being be out  on this boat.  So in order -- and this is back in 1980, you say in  order to go out with a friends of yours --  Yeah.  -- you had to have a commercial fishing license?  Yeah, that's what is required of me to go out with  him.  And that is the only time you have done that?  Yeah.  At one time it was very common for the young men of  Moricetown Village to go down to the coast for  commercial fishing, that is so, is it not?  For Moricetown?  Yes.  We only had two fishermen that I know of.  Only two to your recollection?  Years ago before they went down.  But they haven't got very many now?  No. 1  Q  2  3  4  5  6  7  A  8  Q  9  A  10  Q  11  A  12  13  14  Q  15  16  A  17  18  Q  19  20  A  21  Q  22  A  23  Q  24  25  26  27  A  2 8 MR.  GOLDIE  29  30  31  32  33 THE  regist:  34 MR.  GOLDIE  35  Q  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  A  3893  All right.  I think we touched on this once before,  bit am I correct in my understanding that the  Moricetown Band has instituted litigation against  the Provincial Government with respect to a road  which runs alongside or is part of the John Baptist  Indian Reserve, the Bird Creek Road?  Yeah.  And do you know in whose territory that reserve is?  I believe it is Gitdumden.  Why is he not suing the Provincial Government?  Well, because it was on the reserve land there and  the people that occupy the reserve are the Baptist  family.  Well, there is nobody living on the reserve now, is  there?  No, somebody burned their house down two summers  ago.  But it is the Moricetown Band that considers that  reserve its reserve?  Yes.  And that's why you are suing?  Yes.  And were you part of litigation which was sought to  be instituted by a Petition of Right in March of  1983 seeking declarations of fishing sites in the  Bulkley and Skeena Rivers?  You lost me there again.  Well, Madam Registrar, could I see Exhibit 26,  please.  I am going to show you a Petition of Right  which has been filed here as Exhibit 26 and ask you  if you recall that.  While we are waiting for  that —  \R:  Do you want just 26?  Yes, thanks, Madam Registrar.  Mr. Michell, I am showing you a Petition of Right  which is dated the 8th of March, 1983.  And I refer  you to page 2 where right at the bottom it says:  "Daniel Michell, Chief Councillor, Margarel  Alfred, Alfred Mitchell, Raymond Naziel,  Roy Michell, Gary McKinnon and Larry Tommy,  Band Councillors, Members of the Moricetown  Indian Band suing on behalf of themselves  personally."  Are you the Daniel Michell who is referred to there?  Yes. 1  Q  2  3 MR.  RUSH:  4 MR.  GOLDIE  5  Q  6  7  8  9  10  A  11  12  Q  13  A  14  15  16  Q  17  18  A  19  Q  20  A  21  Q  22  23  24  25  26  A  27  28  29  Q  30  A  31  Q  32  33  34  A  35  Q  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  A  44  45  Q  46  A  47 THE  COURT:  3894  And the purpose of this litigation was to establish  the location of fishing sites on the reserves?  It says right at the beginning:  "To wit".  Well, perhaps I should reframe my question.  Was the  purpose of this proposed litigation to establish  ownership of fisheries and waterways in the Upper  Skeena River, Bulkley River and the Babine River in  the Province of British Columbia?  Well, this would be on behalf of these chiefs they  would have done that.  On behalf of the chiefs?  Yeah, depending on certain circumstances sometimes  we don't act on behalf of the chiefs in some of the  things that we deal with the government.  But this time you were acting on behalf of the  chiefs?  Yes.  All right.  The chiefs had told you to --  Yeah.  -- start this.  I want to refer you to a -- if I  understand it, I looked through that document and I  couldn't find Namox anywhere.  Was it your  understanding that Namox was not suing in relation  to the fishing sites of the house of Namox?  Probably at the time they figured that was just  under one name like when they first began under  Kweese.  Under Kweese?  Probably.  So if Kweese was part of that litigation she was  doing it on behalf of her House and the House of  Namox?  M'hm.  Well, is there any reference there to the Tsayu Clan  or the Beaver Clan?  Let me -- consume for a minute.  Yes.  At pages 13 and on from this petition, there  is a description of who the chief is and the name of  the clan and there is Gisdaywa who is of the  Gitdumden Clan, Madeek, Hagwilnegh, Wah tah Kwets,  Kweese of the Tsayu Clan and you say that includes  Namox; is that right?  Probably.  Of course that's how we went with the  court case too, but then we decided to --  Change it around?  Yes.  Are you finished with that document, Mr. Goldie? 3895  1 MR. GOLDIE:  Beg your pardon?  2 THE COURT:  Are you finished with that document?  3 MR. GOLDIE:  Yes, I am.  4 THE COURT:  Thank you.  5 MR. GOLDIE:   Now, in the book of documents under tab 9 are  6 three documents relating to the --  7 MR. RUSH:  Which book of documents?  8 MR. GOLDIE:  The Daniel Michell book of documents.  9 THE REGISTRAR:  The blue book?  10 MR. GOLDIE:  11 Q    Mr. Michell, do you see the first one.  I am sorry,  12 look under tab 9.  The first page is headed "The  13 Gitksan-Wet'suwet'en Blanket Trapline Proposal  14 submitted to the Department of Fish and Wildlife on  15 February 19, 1985."  And then I would ask you to go  16 over to page it -- page 3 I should say.  Do you see  17 that that's headed "The Gitksan and Wet'suwet'en, a  18 matrilineal society number approximately 7,000."  Do  19 you see that page?  20 A    Page 3?  21 Q    Yes.  I am sorry, I thought that was a three, it is  22 two.  Now, you've got the page.  Would you look at  23 the fourth paragraph where it says and I quote:  24  25 "The Gitksan are divided into four clans,  26 Fireweed, Wolf, Frog and Eagle."  27  28 The next paragraph:  29  30 "Similarly the Wet'suwet'en are divided into  31 four clans, Fireweed, Wolf, Frog and Small  32 Frog."  33  34 Whoever drew up this document omitted your clan, did  35 he not?  36 A    Well, Fireweed and Beavers are both working together  37 in the fire -- I mean in the Feast Hall.  38 Q    I see.  39 A    So I guess that's why the guy who wrote this up  4 0 thought that Fireweed and Beaver are the same.  41 Q    Do you regard yourself as part of the Fireweed Clan?  42 A    No, we do things together in the Feast Hall.  43 Q    I see.  And was this document discussed by the Band  44 Councils?  Do you recall discussing this document we  45 are looking at?  46 A    I don't recall it, but this is to do with the  47 blanket trapline industry. 1  Q  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  A  11  12  13  Q  14  15  16  A  17  Q  18  A  19  Q  20  21  22  23  24  A  25  Q  26  27  A  28  Q  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  A  36  Q  37  38  39  40  A  41  Q  42  A  43  44  Q  45  46  47  A  3896  Well, I am referring to page 3 where the author of  the document says and I quote:  "The Blanket Trapline has been widely  discussed through meetings, workshops, and  personal discussions with - (1) Band  Councils and their village members."  Do you recall that?  Well, there has been quite a few meetings.  Like we  had to go to Hagwilget and all meet on the same  things same thing in Moricetown.  During your evidence in chief there was a document  put in that indicated that you had assigned your  trapline --  Yes.  -- to the Tribal Council, do you recall that?  Yes.  And my question to you is did you understand the  Blanket Trapline Proposal to involve assigning a  trapline of yours to the Tribal Council on condition  that they would sort of look after it or respect the  hereditary chiefs' interest?  Yes.  Now, can you recall that proposition being discussed  at Band Council meetings?  Yes.  And the -- and do you recall that the numbers which  were being talked about at that time were along  these lines, that there were about 218 traplines  within the claims area.  And I am referring you to  page 4, the next page.  Right at the top of that  page Present Status.  Was that your understanding  that there were 218 traplines in the claims area?  I didn't have really exactly how many traplines.  Well, did you understand that of that 218, 88 had  been transferred to the Tribal Council under the  Blanket Trapline Proposal or did you know that  number?  88?  Yes, out of 218.  You mean to say that they had a Blanket Trapline on  8 8 now?  Yes, when you assigned your trapline to the Tribal  council, did you understand that you were one of  about 88?  We were one of the 88? 1  Q  2  A  3  4  Q  5  A  6  Q  7  A  8  9  10  Q  11  A  12  Q  13  A  14  Q  15  16  17  18  A  19  Q  20  A  21  Q  22  23  24  A  25  Q  26  27  A  28  29  Q  30  31  32  A  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  Q  42  43  A  44  45  Q  46  A  47  Q  3897  Yes, did you understand that?  Well, I didn't count how many there was but I know  we included ours.  Yes.  And so does the rest of the Wet'suwet'en.  And there are about 88?  Well, all of them -- I don't know the numbers like I  said.  The only one person that disagreed with that  was David Alec.  David Alec?  Yes.  And he didn't transfer his?  No.  Well, there were quite a number.  In fact, there  were quite a number of people who didn't transfer  their traplines, weren't there?  You have mentioned  one David Alec, but weren't there others?  I don't believe so.  I see.  All right.  That's talking about the Wet'suwet'en people.  Yes, I understand that.  Did you understand that  there were approximately 47 traplines which are  registered to non-Indians in the claims area?  No I didn't know about it.  Do you have any information as to how many traplines  in the claims area are owned by non-Indians?  I just know two people and I don't even know how  they got it.  All right. And do you recall what the Blanket  Trapline Proposal suggested would be done with  non-Indian traplines?  Well, I don't know.  Theirs would have been worked  out later.  But at the time, you know, to start up  with that Blanket Trapline was just like every  Wet'suwet'en people that had their trapline  registered, their hunting ground has signed over  theirs to the Tribal Council.  So that was the one  that we were dealing with at the time.  And we are  not dealing with the ones that were outside of the  people that have signed theirs over.  All right.  You weren't concerned with people who  didn't sign up?  Yeah, and that's a good example that David Alec  there didn't want to.  Yes.  So we are not going to drag him into it.  Why didn't David Alec want to join up? 3898  1 A    I don't know.  2 Q    I may have asked you this question, but did you have  3 any trapline maps which you gave to the Tribal  4 Council?  5 A    Yes, I did.  6 Q    I would ask my friend to produce those.  I won't  7 require them for the purposes of completing my  8 cross-examination, but I would like those maps  9 produced if they are in the custody of the Tribal  10 Council.  I will leave that request with my friend.  11 Now, Mr. Michell, under that tab that you are  12 looking at, there is the Gitksan-Wet'suwet'en  13 Blanket Trapline Proposal and there is Appendix A  14 which is a blank letter to the regional manager and  15 Appendix B Transfer of Registered Traplines with a  16 list of names attached to it.  And then following  17 that and it is marked as Exhibit B on Mr. Sterritt's  18 examination for discovery is a letter dated February  19 21, 1985 from Mr. Willett.  Mr. Sterritt, Re:  20 Trapline Proposal.  And a letter from Mr. Michell  21 dated February 27, 1985.  Was any of this  22 correspondence brought to your attention as the  23 chief councillor of the Moricetown Band?  24 A    I wouldn't recall it unless I see it.  It is hard to  25 remember so many correspondence.  26 Q    Well, let me show you that.  First let me take you  27 through these one by one.  We have been talking  28 about the document entitled Gitksan-Wet'suwet'en  29 Blanket Trapline Proposal and that consists of seven  30 pages.  And I take it that you don't recall seeing  31 that particular document but you recall discussions  32 about the Trapline Proposal?  33 A    Yes.  34 Q    And then the next document is Appendix A which is a  35 blank letter to the regional manager.  The next  36 document is Appendix N which is like the letter that  37 was sent to you.  And then there are a list of  38 Gitksan trappers, a list of Wet'suwet'en trappers  39 and then a correspondence between the Department and  40 the Tribal Council.  Have you seen any of those  41 letters and lists?  I don't propose asking you  42 questions about it.  I just want to know if you  43 recognize those as being the subject matter of  44 discussions at the Band meetings or anything like  45 that?  46 A    No, I don't recall it.  47 MR. GOLDIE:  All right.  Well, my lord, I am only going to 1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  THE COURT:  MR. RUSH:  MR. GOLDIE  MR.  MR.  MR.  THE  RUSH:  GOLDIE  RUSH:  COURT:  MR. GOLDIE  MR.  GOLDIE:  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  3899  tender the Blanket Trapline Proposal, then, which is  a seven-page document.  Any objection, Mr. Rush?  I take it that what is being proposed being reduced  is the document which includes Appendix A and  Appendix B?  Yes, I guess so.  And the lists of trappers,  although these do not seem to have been  recognized --  or I shouldn't say recognized.  It is just the proposal.  I take it whatever the  proposal is --  I am tendering the proposal as something which the  witness has a recollection of but not in any detail.  I have no objection to any of these documents.  Well then the proposal and the list of trappers then  together will be the next exhibit which is 301.  And I am not tendering at this time the two  letters.  (EXHIBIT 301:  Blanket Proposal dated February  19, 1985 For Trapline with List of Trappers)  Now, turning to another topic, do you recall a  member of the Moricetown Band whose name is Round  Lake Tommy?  Round Lake Tommy, yes.  Was he the person that you had in mind when you said  earlier that there was an Indian who had been chased  off his land, was that Round Lake Tommy that you had  in mind?  No, different people that complained.  Did you know anything about Round Lake Tommy or is  that before your time?  I seen him.  And did you understand that he had -- he owned land  outside --  He lived off reserve.  He lived off the reserve?  He used to come to Moricetown when the feast began.  He had, in fact, preempted land, had he not?  I don't know that.  Do you know what is meant by preempted?  No.  I see.  It is land from the province which the  preemptor like Round Lake Tommy has settled on and  has cultivated.  That's not a term that is familiar 1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  3900  to you?  A    No.  Q    What about Bill Nye, did you ever know him?  A    Yeah.  Q    He was Madeek at one time, was he not?  A    Yes.  Q    And did he live off the reserve?  A    Yeah, he lived pretty near the same area as Round  Lake Tommy, I believe.  Q    Around Barret Lake?  A    Yeah.  THE COURT:  Parrott Lake?  MR. GOLDIE:  Barret.  Q    And did you understand that he owned that land  himself?  A    I don't know what the arrangement was, but he live  out there too.  Q    He had a farm out there, did he not?  A    Yeah, he has a big field there.  Q    Well, and you did not understand that Bill Nye had  preempted land also?  A    No, I was too young to know anything.  THE COURT:  Is this convenient to adjourn, Mr. Goldie?  MR. GOLDIE:  Yes, I will be only a few minutes.  THE COURT:  Thank you.  THE REGISTRAR:  Order in court, this court stands adjourned.  (PROCEEDINGS ADJOURNED PURSUANT TO LUNCHEON ADJOURNMENT)  I hereby certify the foregoing to  be a true and accurate transcript  of the proceedings transcribed  to the best of my skill and  ability.  LISA REID, OFFICIAL REPORTER  UNITED REPORTING SERVICE LTD. 3901  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47 THE  THE  1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8 THE  9  10  11  12 THE  13 THE  14 MR.  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25 THE  26  2 7 MR.  28  2 9 THE  3 0 MR.  31 THE  32 MR.  33  34 THE  35 MR.  36 THE  37 MR.  38  39 THE  40  41 MR.  42  43  44  45  46  47  3901  (PROCEEDINGS RESUMED PURSUANT TO A LUNCHEON ADJOURNMENT AT  2:00 P.M.)  REGISTRAR:  Order in court.  Delgamuukw versus Her Majesty  the Queen at bar, my lord.  COURT:  Excuse me, gentlemen, I am going to have to adjourn  for a moment, please.  REGISTRAR:  Order in court.  (BRIEF ADJOURNMENT)  REGISTRAR:  Order in court.  COURT:  Mr. Goldie.  GOLDIE:  My lord, I had asked the witness some questions  about pre-emptions and I am going to save your  lordship's time by not suggesting that the bundle of  documents relating to the pre-emption by Bill Nye  and the bundle of documents relating to Round Lake  Tommy's pre-emption not be marked for identification  and I'll deal with those at a later time.  Those  documents are under tabs 3 and 4 in the blue book of  Dan Michell and if your lordship would like to take  them out and return them, I'd be glad to receive  them.  Perhaps we might leave --  COURT:  Well, was this blue book tendered by you, Mr.  Goldie, or by your friend?  GOLDIE:  No.  I think this is mine, book of documents, re:  Dan Michell.  COURT:  Yes.  GOLDIE:  First one being B.C. Special Grant.  COURT:  Yes, all right.  GOLDIE:  That's in now and I think a number of the others  are.  COURT:  So you want me to take out tab 3, 4?  GOLDIE:  Yes.  COURT:  All right.  GOLDIE:  I will be re-tendering those at a later date but I  don't need to do that through this witness.  COURT:  Madam registrar, do you want to give those back to  Mr. Goldie?  GOLDIE:  Thank you.  Now, Mr. Michell, just one or two  questions to conclude this.  This morning when we  had delivered to us the B.C. special documents from  the Band, I have had those now tendered as exhibits  but the question that I'd like to put to you is  this, Mr. Michell:  The documents we have that  relate to 1980 advice to the Band, December 16, 1980 1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  3902  advice to the Band of February 19th, that accounts  have been credited to the Band's trust fund under  the B.C. Special appropriation and Exhibit 300 is  the Statement of Accounts of the Queen in Right of  Canada of the amount added to the Band's revenue  account.  Didn't these come in every year when you  were chief council?  MR. RUSH:  Did what come in every year?  MR. GOLDIE:  Advises that amounts had been credited to the  Band's account?  MR. RUSH:  Well, you put several documents to the witness and  the last one I took to mean the Statement of  Accounts dated July 30, 1987.  Does -- is that in  particular the documents?  MR.  GOLDIE:  Q  Yes.  Wasn't there one of those for every year?  Wasn't there an advice such in the form of exhibits  298 and 299 for every year?  Do you follow me?  Let  me show you?  A    No.  Q    Let me show you what I am talking about.  Do you not  recall that every year you received advice that a  sum of money had been credited to the Band's trust  account or its revenue account by virtue of the B.C.  Special Grant?  A    I don't recall this form, no.  I don't recall.  Maybe they do come in every year but I don't think  so.  Q    Well, you say this form, you are referring to a  letter?  A    To a letter like this.  Q    The letter of December 16, addressed to the  Moricetown Band Council.  You don't recall that  coming in every year?  A    No, I don't.  Q    But the Band got a sum of money every year from the  B.C. Special, did it not?  A    Well, usually computer printout usually comes to the  Band.  Q    Right, showing --  A    Changes the number of --  Q    Yes.  Was the computer printout in the form like  that which is the Statement of Accounts held by Her  Majesty the Queen and marked "Received by the  Moricetown Band" in August of last year?  Is that  the sort of thing that the Band used to get each  year? 1  A  2  3  Q  4  5  6  A  7  8  Q  9  10  A  11  Q  12  A  13  14  Q  15  A  16  17  18  19  20  Q  21  A  22  Q  23  24  A  25  Q  26  A  27  Q  28  29  A  3 0 MR.  GOLDIE:  31  32  33 MR.  RUSH:  34 THE  WITNESS  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42 MR.  GOLDIE:  43  Q  44  45  A  46  47  3903  Just shows the total if the Band finds that it's in  error.  Right.  And it also shows there has been credited to  the Band revenue account Moricetown B.C. Special in  the amount of $3,993.13; isn't that what it shows?  No.  It is different than this one, the one they did  every year.  The one that you recall is a different form than  that?  Yes.  It is kind of a green colour form.  Right.  Printout with pretty near filled in all the way  through down.  It shows all kinds of accounts?  It doesn't tell you what's for, you know, that  computer printout.  I don't understand them, so our  sawmill manager was using the same thing and we tell  him we didn't understand the computer printout.  He  try to give us a statement in little more detail.  Yes.  Well, that was in connection with the sawmill?  Yes, so I don't understand the computer printout.  But your recollection is that you got a computer  printout from the --  Yes.  -- Federal Government?  Every year.  And that had something in it about the B.C. Special  Fund?  It doesn't say.  Well, what is it that supports your recollection  that each year the Band got some money from the B.C.  Special Fund?  Is it --  He didn't say that?  :  I didn't understand the B.C. Special right from  the beginning and I still don't do 'til I am up here  because first time I heard about B.C. Special is  that in our district, they were giving out few power  saw between the eight Band, and I was told that I  was entitled to one so I went there to pick up  one -- to claim one but it was all gone by the time  I got there.  All been picked up by other people.  Did you understand that those power saws were being  bought from the B.C. Special Fund?  Yeah, B.C. Special, that I know, but whatever the  money comes from, I didn't know, but they said there  was some power saw being made available in the 1  2  3  4  5  Q  6  A  7  Q  8  A  9  Q  10  11  A  12  Q  13  A  14  Q  15  16  17  A  18  19  20  Q  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  A  31  Q  32  A  33 MR.  GOLDI  34 MR.  GRANT  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  3904  District Office for eight Bands to pick up some  power saws who needs them.  I was told that I was  eligible for it at the time so I went there but I  didn't get one.  Do you recall when that was?  Was it —  Around 1965 or so.  Sixty-five or so?  I am not too sure but somewhere in there.  But each year didn't the Band get credited to its  account some fund of money for the B.C. Special?  I believe.  Yes?  Yes.  Well -- and each year there would be some kind of  piece of paper which would show that, wouldn't  there?  Yeah. Nobody gets excited about that 'cause, you  know, it is something that you cannot change. We  don't have no handle on it.  Well, I repeat my request then, my lord, that the  all of the documents relating to the B.C. Special  Fund be produced.  If the advice that has been given  to my friend is that these are all the documents,  then I ask him to go back and request them for  whatever year and for every year that relates to  this account.  It seems clear that they have got  them not just in 1980 and not just in 1987, Mr.  Michell recalls a power saw being made available out  of a B.C. Special Fund expenditure in 1965 or --  Somewhere in there.  Somewhere in there?  That's when I first heard B.C. Special.  Yes.  Well, my lord, maybe I should speak to this if I may  as I dealt with this matter.  The documents that  have been produced I have been instructed are all of  the documents relating to the B.C. Special that are  presently available that are presently in the hands  of the Band.  I do know that these kinds of letters  that is in other areas dealing with the District  of -- The Gitksan Carriers District of the  Department of Indian Affairs were not standard sent  every year.  Whatever correspondence depended on who  was the officer in charge of a particular matter and  some seemed to write letters and others didn't.  I  know that -- I can advise the court of that  independently of this case, that's been my 1  2  3  4  5  MR.  GOLDIE:  6  7  8  9  10  11  THE  COURT:  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  THE  WITNESS  24  THE  COURT:  25  MR.  GRANT:  26  27  THE  COURT:  28  29  30  MR.  GRANT:  31  THE  COURT:  32  33  MR.  GOLDIE:  34  Q  35  A  36  37  38  39  40  41  Q  42  A  43  44  45  Q  46  A  47  Q  3905  experience in reviewing the records, and so there  are no other records and those are the ones that  have been produced at least in the hands of the Band  of which this -- of which Mr. Michell is part.  Well, I would -- my friend used the words "are  available".  I am not quite sure what he means by  that but if he has been told that's all we could  find, then my request is that he go back and inform  the Band manager or the -- whoever keeps the records  that it is desirable that a search be made.  Well, it seems to me, Mr. Grant, from what the  witness has said that there is more than just these  documents.  In some sense the discussion about power  saws strikes me as incongruous to say the least,  that someone other than the Band would decide to use  this money to buy power saws, and I don't know if  that's what's being suggested or not.  I would have  thought that if the money was the property of the  Band that the Band could decide to use it for power  saws or for some other purpose.  I think the  situation does fall for a further inquiry.  I don't  see --  :  Can I say something?  -- there is more to it than what I have heard.  All I am saying, my lord, is that I made the request  that the person in charge of the documents --  You don't need to prolong this.  Surely you can  inform the Band manager of the dialogue we have had  here and --  Certainly.  I can do that.  If there is anything else.  If not, that will be the  end of the matter.  Thank you.  Mr. Michell, did you wish to add to --  Well, in that power saw I was talking about, you  know, it wasn't -- I don't know how it was set up.  I guess it was the District -- it was the Department  of Indian Affairs office that was distributed out of  people who requested them and who was qualifying to  get power saws.  There were some back and forth about —  I don't know how it came about.  I don't think it  was any Band member's decision.  It was the decision  of the district manager I believe at the time.  I see.  Which is the Indian aids.  Now, do I have Exhibit 82?  I have got a copy here. 3906  1 It can be put before the witness.  Mr. Michell, I  2 asked you some questions last week or the week  3 before on the All Clans Feast at Moricetown and I  4 read you from that feast record some of the things  5 that you were reported to have said, and that was  6 with respect to the territory of Namox.  Now, on  7 page 2 of that transcript or record, do you see  8 towards the top?  9 A    Yes.  10 Q    "2:15 Dan Michell", and you were reported to have  11 said:  12  13 "Welcome everybody.  I am elected Chief Dan  14 Michell.  In English:  I just want to welcome  15 all our brothers and sisters to our village  16 here.  We all hold office now but in the past  17 it used to be the hereditary chiefs that made  18 decisions, but since the white people came it  19 is their way that we have been trapped into."  20  21 Mr. Michell, are you accurately reported to have  22 said:  23  24 "In the past it used to be the hereditary  25 chiefs that made the decisions"?  26  27 A    Yes.  28 Q    So that you were saying to the people who were there  29 that times have changed and that now they have,  30 according to the way the Government has done it,  31 elected councillor?  32 A    Yes, through Indian Act.  33 Q    Yes, and you were the chief councillor?  34 A    Yes.  35 Q    And it is in that capacity that you were speaking to  36 the assembled people?  37 A    Yes.  38 Q    And you went on to say:  39  40 "The Government, the DIA",  41  42 that's the Department of Indian affairs?  43 A    Yes.  44 Q  45 "...wants to talk to us.  They only talk to the  46 elected chiefs.  They try to assimilate as to  47 their ways but I don't think we can forget our 3907  1 past, our ways.  But God created us as we are  2 and our boundary.  Otherwise we would all  3 speak the same language.  This is not man made  4 boundaries."  5  6 Just pausing there.  You are speaking there of the  7 boundaries of the house and clans that were on the  8 map in the wall?  9 A    These -- that was -- I am talking about the  10 boundaries of Gitksan, Wet'suwet'en and Nuu'tsenii.  11 Q    All of them?  12 A   All of them.  13 Q    Thank you.  And then you go on to say, I am skipping  14 a couple of lines.  The next paragraph:  15  16 "I don't believe there is any community where  17 everyone agrees together on anything.  If  18 there is such a village tell me and maybe I  19 should move over there.  I have been Chief  20 for 10 years going onto my 12th year.  I don't  21 find there is anything we agree on.  There is  22 always somebody disagreeing now."  23  24 That's the voice of experience?  25 A    That's politics.  26 Q    That's right.  But it is the politics of the Band  27 Councils and the members of the Band; is that right?  28 A    Yes.  Well, you know yourself the politician don't  29 agree.  They say the Government now in place and  30 Province and the Federal, and they all don't agree  31 with anything that's going on.  Always opposition  32 and different things.  33 Q    You were in power longer than any of the current  34 ones?  35 A    Yeah.  36 Q    So you should -- we respect your experience.  37 Now, on page 4 and 5, you are again reported as  38 speaking.  That's the page with the top line  39 reading:  40  41 "...that I would introduce them so you would  42 know who is speaking."  43  44 And about a quarter of the way down the page, Dan  45 Michell:  "Thanks again".  Just looking down that  46 very quickly, Mr. Michell, does that appear to  47 relate to what you said at the time? 1  A  2  Q  3  4  5  6  A  7  Q  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  A  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  Q  39  40  A  41  Q  42  A  43  Q  44  45  A  46  Q  47  3908  Yes.  And am I right in saying that you were concerned,  you were expressing your concern about having to  spend so much time negotiating with the officials of  the Department of Indian Affairs?  I don't follow you again.  Well, in that first paragraph you say this:  "We have to carry on on this land claim.  Today  we are gathered here because we want to share.  As we all know our grandparents, in telling us  about their struggles:  Years ago when I was  very small my grandfathers used to talk about  Ottawa.  They talk about Ottawa as the name of  a person, they say 'Ottawa has spoken to us,  said this, promised us this'.  As you can see  I am getting pretty old now myself.  This is  how we learned from our elders."  Now, I may be wrong but I took from that and other  statements such as in the next paragraph about two,  four, six lines from the bottom:  "Now the government has regulations, people are  there."  I took from that that you would have to spend a good  deal of time in negotiating with Government --  talking to Government officials or listening to what  they had to say?  That's when -- in our position, any time you set up  a project, you know, you have to go by strict  guide-lines from the Federal Government, and this is  what I am referring to when I say we have to go  follow everything they say in order to get the  money.  The funding we get every year is the same  thing.  And isn't that what you had to go through in order  to finance the sawmill?  Yes.  We had to do that.  And that's what you did personally, wasn't it?  Yes.  Isn't that right?  And you raised money from what,  three or four different places for the sawmill?  What you mean by raise money?  Well, didn't you get money from the first citizens  fund, didn't you get money from -- 3909  Yes.  -- from the Department of Indian And Northern  Affairs?  Yes.  Wasn't there some place else that you were able to  raise money from?  A loan.  Yes, that's right, loans.  What I am getting at, Mr.  Michell, is that you had to do a good deal of  personal negotiations in order to get the money for  the sawmill.  I mean if you don't want to take  credit for it --  No.  Some of the things I am talking about there is  that something that you just cannot negotiate with.  Everything is set up at the Treasury Board and it  just comes through regional, then to district and  then to our community.  And finally works its way down?  Yes.  That's what I am talking about by doing things  their ways all the time.  Yes.  They just tell us what to do and seems like we just  follow what they tell us.  All right.  Well, I will leave it on this basis,  that notwithstanding all of these difficulties, you  eventually got the money required for the sawmill  and it was built and it is operating today?  Yes.  Now, the week before last we were talking about the  genealogies and the places of residence of your  members of your house, and I asked you if you'd be  good enough to look at this genealogy and to tell us  whether any of the people on that genealogy were not  living in Moricetown and to refresh your  recollection.  The interrogatory response that you  gave us had all of the members of the house --  indicated that all the members of your house lived  in Moricetown and you said no, there are some people  who live outside?  Yes.  Now, did you have an opportunity of looking at the  genealogy and identifying any further names of  people who live outside the Moricetown?  Victor has done that, and I don't know if our  councillor has got it or not.  Well, I am in possession of it -- the genealogy which  47 indicates by X under the name of a number of the  1  A  2  Q  3  4  A  5  Q  6  7  A  8  Q  9  10  11  12  13  A  14  15  16  17  18  Q  19  A  20  21  Q  22  A  23  24  Q  25  26  27  28  A  29  Q  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  A  41  Q  42  43  44  A  45  4 6 MR.  RUSH THE  MR.  9  10  11  12  13  14 MR.  15 MR.  16  17 MR.  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  4 0 MR  MR.  GOLDIE:  RUSH:  GOLDIE:  Q  THE  THE  41  42  43  44  4 5 MR.  4 6 MR.  47  3910  names identified here as people living in  Moricetown.  COURT:  Where do I find that document, Mr. Rush?  RUSH:  It was apparently prepared by the witness and  provided to Mr. Grant who provided it to me.  He was  asked to X the documents and I X'd the genealogy in  order to determine who of the people on the  genealogy were people that were living in  Moricetown.  Now, I thought my recollection of that  particular moment was that he was to X those people  who were not living in Moricetown, but I notice that  he X'd those who are living in Moricetown and I  suppose it's half of one --  I think I may be able to work it out.  Oh, good.  That's the only copy we have.  Maybe could  be just shown to the witness.  Yes.  What I am going to do, Mr. Michell, is ask  you -- you put X's here or a pencil mark of the  people who are living in Moricetown.  For  instance --  A    Yes, yes, that's what happened.  Q    Eric Joseph and Olivia and Kimberley, children of  Shirley Jim and Fred Joseph.  They all live in  Moricetown?  A    Yes, and their spouse are not X'd.  Q    Victor Jim lives in Moricetown but his wife, you  haven't marked?  A    She is Laksilyu, not Tsayu.  Q    I see, yes.  Just members of the house?  A    Yes.  GOLDIE:  My lord, I hesitate to suggest that anything else  be marked as an exhibit.  Would it be satisfactory  if I borrowed this and compared it with the house  genealogy and corresponded with my friends on making  a list up that indicates those who are resident  rather than pursuing it in this manner?  COURT:  I think that's an arrangement you have to make with  your friend.  RUSH:  I have no objection to this document being filed and  my friend can do as he indicated as well.  COURT:  All right.  Well, if your friend wants it filed, we  can have it filed and you may extract it to make up  the list if Mr. Rush agrees.  RUSH:  I have no problem with that.  GOLDIE:  In that case, I will tender this document as a  genealogy which has been marked by the witness as 3911  indicating the residence of the members of his house  who live in Moricetown.  THE COURT:  Yes.  (EXHIBIT 302 - GENEALOGY CHART WITH NAMES OF MEMBERS  MARKED X BY DAN MICHELL WHO ARE LIVING IN  MORICETOWN)  9 MR. GOLDIE:  Now, one other matter.  10 I spoke on Friday last of the fishing by-law  11 questionnaire and underlying documents with respect  12 to it and I went through the chronology of the  13 number of times that's been asked about, and I would  14 like to know if my friends have any of those  15 underlying documents before I conclude my  16 cross-examination.  17 MR. RUSH:  Mr. Grant will speak to that.  18 MR. GRANT:  Yes.  My lord, I have been in correspondence with  19 the persons at the Band and partly through my own  20 forgetfulness actually more than anything else, I  21 don't -- I cannot answer my friends whether there  22 are any underlying documents or -- and I don't have  23 them if there are; however, that will all be  24 resolved by the end of today.  I dealt with the  25 matter at the end of the weekend and if there are  2 6 any such documents, I have arranged -- I have  27 instructed them to have those documents delivered  28 down tonight and that will be dealt with by the end  29 of today which, given the time and the estimate by  30 Ms. Koenigsberg, should probably not adversely  31 affect Mr. Goldie.  32 THE COURT:  Well, your cross-examination can be kept open with  33 respect to that matter if you wish.  34 MR. GOLDIE:  All right.  Subject to that, my lord, I don't have  35 any more cross-examination.  36 THE COURT:  All right, thank you.  Ms. Koenigsberg?  37  38 CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS. KOENIGSBERG:  39 Q    Thank you, my lord.  40 Mr. Michell, I'd first like to canvas the topic  41 of fishing with you.  You, as councillor for the  42 Moricetown Band until this last few months, have  43 obtained a permit for the Moricetown Band members to  44 fish at Moricetown Canyon; is that correct?  45 A    One time, I think.  46 Q    Okay.  I have one, I think it is dated 1982.  Does  47 that accord with your recollection? 1  2  MS  3  MR  4  MS  5  6  7  8  9  0  1  2  MS  3912  A    Probably.  KOENIGSBERG:  Let me just put a copy of it in front of you.  RUSH:  May I see that?  KOENIGSBERG:  Q    I only have a photocopy of this one.  Do you  recognize that document?  A    Yes.  Q    And it is an Indian food/fish licence issued to the  Moricetown Band members, and it's over your  signature?  A    Yes.  KOENIGSBERG:  Is that correct?  Could we mark that as the  13 next exhibit?  14 THE COURT:  303.  15 THE REGISTRAR:  303.  16  17 (EXHIBIT 303 - INDIAN FOOD LICENCE - MAY 25, 1982)  18  19 MS. KOENIGSBERG.  20 Q    Now, Mr. Michell, you personally had fishing permits  21 issued to you for fishing in the Moricetown Canyon  22 in 1952, '53, '55 and '56.  Would that accord with  23 your recollection?  24 A    Could have been.  25 Q    You recall fishing and being given a permit to do so  26 in the 50's in any event?  27 A    Yes.  28 Q    And I'd just like to clarify one other point with  29 regard to fishing permits that you personally were  30 involved in and that is the personal commercial  31 fishing licence that Mr. Goldie made reference to,  32 and I have an original copy.  I am putting in front  33 of you what appears to be at least a better copy, it  34 looks like an original copy --  35 A    Yes.  36 Q    -- of that personal commercial licence, and you have  37 told us the circumstances under which you obtained  38 that licence but I think at least on the copy you  39 were unable to identify your signature.  And I am  40 just —  41 A    Yes.  42 Q    -- indicating where I think your signature is and  43 that is your signature; isn't it?  44 A    Yes.  45 MS. KOENIGSBERG:  Could we mark that then as the next exhibit?  46 THE COURT:  304.  47 MS. KOENIGSBERG:  Would you like the original to be marked? 3913  1 MR. RUSH:  It is not necessary unless there is anything on the  2 back of it.  3 MS. KOENIGSBERG:  No, there isn't.  4 THE REGISTRAR:  Exhibit 304.  5  6 (EXHIBIT 304 - PERSONAL COMMERCIAL FISH LICENCE -  7 JULY 21, 198 0)  9 MS.  KOENI  10  Q  11  12  13  14  A  15  Q  16  17  A  18  Q  19  A  20  Q  21  A  22  Q  23  A  24  Q  25  A  26  Q  27  28  A  29  Q  30  31  A  32  33  34  35  Q  36  A  37  Q  38  A  39  Q  40  A  41  Q  42  43  44  45  A  46  47  Q  GSBERG.  Now, I'd like to ask you about other members of your  house who may have held fishing permits to your  knowledge.  Julian Holland, he was a member of your  house?  No.  No.  He is the husband of Lucy Namox — or Lucy  Holland?  Yes.  Who is Namox?  Yes.  Did he fish at Moricetown to your knowledge?  Must have been before my time.  William Holland is Lucy Holland's son?  Yes.  And he is a member of your house?  Yes.  The house of Namox.  Do you know if he fished at the  North Pacific Cannery on the coast in 1961?  I don't know.  Do you know if he is one of the few people that you  know about who fished on the coast?  Well, some of them works with somebody in that -- I  don't know.  I guess you could call it them fishing,  like I just been on a boat once and I happen to have  been there.  You have no personal knowledge of that?  No.  Mary Jim is your sister?  Yes.  And she would be a member --  Yes.  -- of the house of Namox?  And to your knowledge did  she fish at Moricetown Canyon pursuant to a permit  in -- and the year I have specifically is 1949 which  was quite a long time ago?  Well, I didn't know my sister fished there.  Maybe  net, I don't know.  I don't recall.  And your mother Emma Michell? 3914  1 A Yes.  2 Q She had permits to fish at Moricetown?  3 A I didn't know about it.  4 Q Do you know her fishing at Moricetown?  The years I  5 have are again 1961 and I also have one for 1955?  6 A Probably with net because they don't gaff.  7 Q By net if she fished?  8 A Probably, yeah.  9 Q And do you know if there is another Emma Michell who  10 would live at Old Fort?  11 A That's same name, yeah.  Probably, yeah.  12 Q Your mother Emma Michell did not live at Old Fort?  13 A No, no.  14 Q Or in the Babine Lake area?  15 A No.  16 Q Do you know if she ever fished in the Babine Lake  17 area?  18 A I don't think so.  19 Q George Michell, is he a member of your house?  20 A Late George Michell?  21 Q That, I don't know.  There was a George Michell and  22 he is deceased?  23 A Yes, he was my brother.  24 Q And do you know if he fished pursuant to a food/fish  25 permit in the 50's nearly every year?  26 A Could be, I don't know.  27 MR. RUSH: Could be, I?  2 8 MS. KOENIGSBERG:  29 Q Don't know.  30 A Yeah, I believe.  31 Q Little Tommy Michell was your father?  32 A Yes.  33 Q And to your knowledge did he fish in Moricetown  34 Canyon area pursuant to food/fish permits all  35 through the 50's and earlier?  36 A Could mean two people, I don't know.  37 Q Is there more than one Little Tommy Michell?  38 A Little Tommy Michell is my dad, yes.  39 Q Do you know if there is more than one who would live  40 at Moricetown?  41 A Well, the other one was name Big Tommy so that's my  42 uncle.  43 Q All right.  Do you know if your father fished at  44 Moricetown Canyon?  45 A He probably did but I couldn't remember.  46 Q Alec Tiljoe, is he a member of your house?  47 A Yes. 3915  1 Q    And to your knowledge does he fish in the Moricetown  2 Canyon?  3 A    Yes.  4 Q    To your knowledge would he do so pursuant to  5 food/fish permits from time to time?  6 A    Could be.  7 MS. KOENIGSBERG:  What was —  8 MR. RUSH:  What was the answer?  9 MS. KOENIGSBERG:  10 Q    Could be.  11 A    Could be.  12 Q    Do you know if he fished for the North Pacific  13 Cannery in the early 40's?  14 A    I don't know.  15 Q    You don't know?  16 A    No.  17 Q    You mentioned that you knew of at least two people  18 from Moricetown who fished on the coast?  19 A    Yes.  20 Q    Was one of them Alec Tiljoe?  21 A    No.  22 Q    So it is two other people.  Could you tell us their  2 3 names?  24 A    Thomas Tait?  25 Q    Yes?  26 A   And his son, Phillip Tait.  27 THE COURT:  His son?  28 THE WITNESS:  Philip Tait.  2 9 MS. KOENIGSBERG:  30 Q    Phillip Tait, thank you.  31 Now, you gave some evidence when Mr. Rush was  32 asking you some questions about what you understood  33 to be the effect of the building of the fish ladder  34 at Moricetown, and looking at Volume 60, page 3693,  35 toward the bottom, you gave some evidence about the  36 spawning areas of the coho having leaves in them and  37 I just want to read you part of that and ask you  38 about that.  And just going down to about line 39,  39 you have been talking about the effect of the fish  40 ladder, and that people were opposed to it, and you  41 say at about line 39:  42  43 "See, like, before that fish ladder was put in,  44 as far back as I can remember, you can see all  45 those streams from Sus Kwe all the way up  46 to the Moricetown Fall.  There was creeks that  47 coming in into the Bulkley.  In the fall you 1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  A  15  Q  16  17  18  A  19  Q  20  A  21  Q  22  23  A  24  Q  25  26  27  28  A  29  Q  30  31  32  A  33  34  35  36  37  Q  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  A  47  Q  3916  used to see them just full of coho salmon  spawning in those creeks.  But after that fish  ladder was put in, you see there is no more  fish into those streams.  There's none in  them.  They're all filled up with leaves,  whereas when it was a spawning bed, you see  all the sand on the bottom just full of  fishes.  So I guess the old folks knew that  that's what would happen, so they really  opposed that on that basis."  And you went on to describe some more of it.  Do you  recall giving that evidence?  Yes.  When you refer to the Sus Kwe, were you referring to  the river that comes into the Bulkley between the  Moricetown Canyon Falls and Hazelton?  Yes.  Or Hagwilget?  Yes.  And that would be downstream of Moricetown, would it  not?  Yes.  And don't the coho go down to the sea to spawn?  I  mean, travel down from the -- from that river  tributaries to the sea and then come back there to  spawn?  Yes.  And they in fact don't go to Moricetown Falls, do  they?  They don't come up as far as Moricetown; they  stop and spawn in those tributaries; isn't that so?  Not to my knowledge, they don't.  They usually come  to the Fall and when they don't make it up that  Fall, they are too week, they are ready for spawning  and then they go back down the creek and go into  those creeks to spawn.  Okay.  Now, I'd like to cover with you if I can  this -- the role of the Band Council which you have  given a lot of evidence about.  As I understood your  evidence, some of the activities in which the Band  Council, the Moricetown Band Council in your case I  am talking about, takes its directions from Ottawa.  I think those are your words; you are the agent in  some cases, you feel like you are the agent of  Ottawa?  Yes.  And it is Ottawa who tells the Band Council how it 1  2  3  A  4  5  Q  6  7  8  A  9  Q  10  11  12  A  13  Q  14  A  15  Q  16  17  18  19  A  20  Q  21  22  23  24  A  25  26  Q  27  28  29  A  30  31  32  Q  33  34  35  A  36  Q  37  38  39  40  41  42  A  43  44  Q  45  46  47  3917  must direct a project.  Do you recall giving that  evidence?  Yes.  The district tells us.  They said they get it  from regional and then all the way up to Ottawa.  Yes.  There are a number of areas of the government  in which directions -- from which directions seem to  come?  Yes.  And would it be fair to characterize those kinds of  actions on the part of the Band Council as being in  the area of housing?  Yes.  And the -- things like water lines, schools?  Yes.  And would you say or see the Band Council as  basically taking its direction from the Federal  Government when it is acting with regard to those  proj ects?  I don't follow you there.  Would you agree with me that you are taking your  direction, you see yourselves not as acting  independently of the Government but in fact taking  direction from the Government on those projects?  It will depend on which project.  There are times,  you know, that we negotiate some of the project.  Yes.  So you do see yourselves as an independent  body acting on your own, if I can put it that way,  with regard to some of those projects?  Not really.  I won't put it that way.  We have to  account for it and do audit on every dollar that we  get.  When the Federal Government funds you for some  project or other, they expect a fairly strict  accounting?  That's right.  Is that right?  Now, you told us about other  activities of the Band Council in which you say that  you are directed or instructed by the hereditary  chiefs.  Are those different projects than the ones  that we are talking about when you say you are  directed by Ottawa?  Well, there are some different projects that we take  direction from the hereditary chiefs.  And would you say then that the Band council is  carrying out whatever that activity is in accordance  with specific directions of the hereditary chiefs;  for instance, the trapline transfers that we saw? 1  A  2  Q  3  4  5  6  7  8  A  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  Q  17  18  19  20  21  22  A  23  24  Q  25  26  A  27  Q  28  29  A  30  Q  31  32  A  33  Q  34  35  36  37  A  38  39  40  41  Q  42  A  43  Q  44  A  45  Q  46  A  47  Q  3918  Yes.  And when we see the Band Council affecting the  transfer of the traplines, is it fair to say that  you are doing that; that the hereditary chiefs are  speaking when you do that?  It may be on a Band  Council resolution but, as far as you are concerned,  it is the hereditary chief speaking?  Well, you know, it is sort of -- the way I have seen  it happen in my time is when the transfer of a  trapline be done, then the Band Councillor, they are  only there to confirm that that's what's been  discussed at the feast hall.  They confirm that  that's the way the hereditary chief wants to be  transferred to such, you know.  Then we back it up  with the B.C.R.  Then if I understood your evidence, when we were  looking at a Band Council resolution, just looking  at the document, we would assume that it was the  Band Council speaking when it was dealing with the  transfer of the trapline, but your evidence is that  it's really the hereditary chiefs?  Yes, to my understanding the time I was the chief  council.  You in fact of course are a hereditary chief; isn't  that right?  Yes.  Sometimes you wear two hats; the Band Council chief  and a hereditary chief?  I don't use them both at one time.  All right.  But do fulfil both of those functions,  don't you?  Yes.  I'd like to show you a Band Council resolution.  It  is our document 2,190, and I -- just looking down at  the bottom of it, you signed this as a councillor in  1974?  Yes.  This was done because of the facts sometimes  they just want to give people fish for maybe two  days or three days a week, so they negotiate with  the Department of Fisheries.  And you were councillor in 1974?  Yes.  And you signed this resolution?  Yes.  And it is a Band Council resolution?  Yes.  Dealing with fishing at the Moricetown Canyon? 3919  1 A    Yes.  2 MS. KOENIGSBERG:  And — well, maybe we will mark that as the  3 next exhibit and then I will ask you some more  4 questions about it.  We can all be looking at it.  5 THE REGISTRAR:  305.  6  7 (EXHIBIT 305 - BAND COUNCIL RESOLUTION RE FISHING -  8 MORICETOWN CANYON - JULY 12, 1974)  9  10 MS. KOENIGSBERG.  11 Q    Now, this Band Council resolution signed by the  12 council -- Band Council members, is this one of  13 those things in which the hereditary chiefs gave you  14 instructions or is this something where you acted  15 just as the Band Council?  16 A    Well, I answer you this way:  A lot of times, you  17 know, like these things come before us at the  18 council meetings when we requested to do that.  19 There are times, you know, the councillors they vote  20 on it; they give their opinions and, at times, you  21 know, some of these B.C.R., whoever is in council,  22 sometimes when they not agree with it, but still  23 they have to make that quorum, they sign it anyway,  24 because it is passed by the majority of the  25 councillor and since you are in council when your  26 signature is needed to make a quorum, you have to  27 sign it sometimes when you don't agree with it --  28 with the B.C.R.  29 Q    Let me deal with that in a moment, but let me ask  30 you:  Dealing with fishing at the Moricetown Canyon  31 as it does, is this one of those resolutions of the  32 Band Council that we can't take as just coming from  33 the Band Council but in fact the hereditary chiefs  34 are speaking, or is this one where just the Band  35 Council is speaking?  36 A    I couldn't recall, but this is -- I think the Band  37 Council were negotiating with the Department of  38 Fisheries about the -- how the regulation was to be  39 carried out that summer; that they wanted seven day  40 open; they wanted to fish seven day.  41 Q    And the hereditary chiefs as a body as you have  42 described them in instructing you with regard to the  43 transfer of traplines did not instruct you with  44 regard to this fishing?  45 A    Well, we did this on behalf of our people.  46 Q    I am not sure I quite understand how you mean that  47 in relation to my question.  Let me ask you again. 1  2  3  4  5  A  6  Q  7  8  9  10  A  11  12  13  14  Q  15  A  16  Q  17  A  18  19  20  21  Q  22  23  24  25  26  A  27  28  29  Q  30  31  32  A  33  34  Q  35  A  36  Q  37  A  38  Q  39  40  A  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  3920  Is this one that you understood -- did you receive  as a councillor instructions or discussion from the  hereditary chiefs that the Moricetown Band should  take?  Yes.  Oh, yeah -- okay.  I will just finish my question.  That the Moricetown  Band negotiate and get permission from Fisheries to  look after these aspects that are discussed in here  of the Fishery?  Yes.  There were meetings there, you know, with all  the people, hereditary chiefs.  You could say that  they were involved in it but they didn't want no  closures.  They meaning?  Like --  The —  Like I say, maybe they want -- the Department of  Fisheries want people to fish maybe two, three days  a week but they didn't want no closure.  They want  the seven days a week open.  Okay.  And this resolution tells us that the  Moricetown Band Council speaking on behalf of, I  think you have said the people but that would be the  hereditary chiefs, has got permission from Fisheries  to have the fishery open seven days a week?  Yes.  That was just that councillor there, they are  the only one that Department of Fisheries can deal  with so that always was done that way.  And that they would be consulted before any other  closure was imposed.  That's another aspect of what  this resolution deals with?  Yeah, the Band Council.  They don't -- don't go to  the hereditary chief and try to impose regulations.  No, the hereditary chiefs fish at --  The Fisheries don't do that.  -- at the Canyon for instance?  Correct?  Yes.  And one permit would be given to the chief  councillor for all the Band members to food/fish?  Yes.  Reason why it was decided to go that way was  that they'd give us a number and the Department of  Fisheries tells us, you know, there is lot of  non-Indian people are fishing with nets down the  river so that we can use this number to mark our  nets or they wouldn't take it.  That's what they  told us so they talked us into accepting permit that  way so everybody that's fishing from our village 1  2  3  Q  4  5  6  A  7  Q  8  9  A  10  Q  11  12  13  A  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  Q  26  27  28  29  30  A  31  Q  32  33  34  A  35  Q  36  37  A  38  39  Q  40  41  42  43  44  45  A  46  Q  47  A  3921  have that number tied on to their nets so the  Department of Fishery wouldn't take it.  And the last aspect of this resolution dealing with  different fishing procedures is that who can fish  that is in relation to age --  Yes.  -- is left up now to the Moricetown Band Council's  discretion?  Right.  And that was another matter which you had negotiated  permission from Fisheries to deal with yourselves;  is that correct?  Yes.  It's another one of trying to regulate our own  people again and, like, our elders keep telling us  that they don't want that regulation being enforced  on us and they done it before with -- but later on  they didn't want that no more and that's how come  about that -- this one permit for the village and  like I said that the Department of Fishery keep  telling us that they have to take the net out  because it's not marked, so you have to mark it with  those numbers.  You better take the permit, that  will protect your net because a lot of non-Indians  are setting the net out.  And I believe you mentioned in the beginning of my  questioning on this resolution that sometimes you  might sign something as a Band Councillor when you  really didn't agree with it because they required a  quorum?  Yes.  And you didn't mean to say that you signed it under  protest; you just meant you can't assume that you  agreed with it?  Some of those resolutions are like that.  Was this one you did not agree with when you signed  it?  I couldn't recall.  I might have agreed on it in  terms to protect the people's property, like net.  Now, I'd like to deal with a slightly different  topic.  Again, Mr. Rush was asking you about your  housing on Moricetown Band and he said that you had  received a house from the Moricetown Band Council in  appreciation for your services to the village I  think he put it.  Is that correct?  Yes.  When did you receive the house?  On my retirement party. 1  Q  2  A  3  Q  4  A  5  Q  6  7  8  A  9  Q  10  A  11  Q  12  13  14  A  15  Q  16  17  18  A  19  Q  20  21  A  22  Q  23  24  A  25  Q  26  27  28  29  30  31  A  32  MR.  RUSH:  33  34  35  THE  WITNESS  36  THE  COURT:  37  38  THE  WITNESS  39  MR.  RUSH:  40  41  THE  WITNESS  42  43  44  45  MS.  KOENIGS  46  Q  47  3922  That was this last year?  From the chief.  1987?  Yes.  And was that a rather extraordinary gift?  Do you --  usually when chief councillors retire, are they  given such a nice gift?  No.  And you were chief councillor for over 12 years?  Yes.  And during your tenure as chief council, such things  as bringing that sawmill into effect was one of the  things that happened?  Yes.  And that you were involved in.  And that would have  been one of the things that they would have  appreciated?  Yes.  And you were instrumental in bringing about the  building of the new school?  Yes.  And as well bringing about other opportunities for  small businesses like trapping?  Yes.  Were there other major contributions that you made  as chief councillor to the village for which you  received this house in appreciation?  I just touched  on three.  Are there any other that come immediately  to mind that would be particularly note worthy?  I  don't mean to embarrass you.  Prior to --  Isn't it hard for a recipient of a gift to determine  what the donor had in mind about the appreciation  that they had in giving something?  :  Well, I tell you --  It might be, but it may have been expressly stated  to them.  :  I can tell you in a different way.  He should be asked if it was stated to him rather  than his trying to make the mind of the donor.  :  They didn't spell out they were doing it for this  project, just overall time that I have been there,  so they didn't tell me, you know, we appreciate you  did this or that, they just --  BERG:  Is it fair to say a lot of good things in terms of  the Moricetown community -- 3923  Yes.  -- have happened in the last 12 to 15 years?  Yes.  Now, I'd like to ask you another area, and this has  to do with one of the Wet'suwet'en laws and that is  that persons aren't to marry within their own clan.  That's one of the laws of the Wet'suwet'en; is that  correct?  It was one day when there was only Wet'suwet'en  people around.  That was -- that was a law that was strongly  observed a long time ago?  Yes.  But it is not as strongly observed today; is that  what you are saying?  Yes, but I think it still applies because, you know,  like supposing, you know, like my sister marries a  non-Indian, they don't inherit anything under the  Wet'suwet'en law.  No.  I understand that.  I am just speaking about  the marriage -- the law which prohibits marriage  between members of the same clan?  Well, I think that's just what I explained now, you  know.  It is the law that, you know, they don't  inherit anything, you know.  That is the reason why  they have that law that they don't marry somebody --  BERG:  And within your own family, that law was not  observed.  Is that fair, in your father's side of  the family, your grandparents were both from the  same clan?  Let me -- you are looking puzzled.  In  your interrogatory which is Exhibit 242, question  18, and I am just going to put a copy of it in front  of you.  The question and answer.  34 THE COURT:  This is Exhibit 242?  35 MS. KOENIGSBERG:  Yes, my lord.  36 THE COURT:  Question 18.  37 MS. KOENIGSBERG.  38 Q    The answer to question 18 just referring down to the  39 last paragraph:  40  41 "My father's father was Arthur Michell.  His  42 clan was Laksilyu.  My father's mother was  43 Amelia Michell.  Her clan was Laksilyu."  44  45 Is that correct?  46 A    Yes.  47 Q    And that was a breach of the law, if you will, of  1  A  2  Q  3  A  4  Q  5  6  7  8  9  A  10  11  Q  12  13  A  14  Q  15  16  A  17  18  19  20  Q  21  22  23  A  24  25  26  2 7 MS. :  koen:  28  29  30  31  32  33 3924  1 between those two people or by those two people?  2 A    No, I wouldn't say that.  3 Q    No?  4 A    They wouldn't -- it wouldn't interfere with their  5 law about losing their territories or anything like  6 that.  7 Q    So your understanding of the law is not that you  8 can't marry within the same clan, it is something  9 else related to that?  10 A    Well, I guess it is advice, you know, like we don't  11 marry our own clan but they had a reason -- their  12 own reason for it too, and --  13 Q    Let me -- if I understand what you have just  14 expressed, as far as you are concerned, it is advice  15 or a guide-line but not a law?  16 A    Yeah.  Well, let me answer it this way:  Like, I  17 don't think that one person did anything, could  18 change anything in a traditional way of doing  19 things, like, these two Laksilyu got married.  That  20 doesn't mean that it's going to happen to every one  21 of them.  22 Q    No, but it is an example of --  23 A    No.  They don't change that law.  Just one person  24 does that, that doesn't change anything.  They still  25 maintain that belief that they --  26 Q    If I understand you, it is a law that you are not to  27 marry within the same clan and this example of your  28 grandparents doing it you say doesn't change the  29 law; it is just an example of them not particularly  30 observing that law?  31 A    That's right.  32 THE COURT:  We will take the afternoon adjournment, now, please.  33 Thank you.  34 THE REGISTRAR:  Order in court.  Court will adjourn.  35  3 6 (AFTERNOON ADJOURNMENT AT 3:01 P.M.)  37  38 I hereby certify the foregoing to be  39 a true and accurate transcript of the  40 proceedings herein, transcribed to the  41 best of my skill and ability.  42  43  44  45  46 TANNIS DEFOE, Official Reporter  47 United Reporting Service Ltd. 3925  1 (PROCEEDINGS RESUMED PURSUANT TO AFTERNOON RECESS)  2 THE COURT:  Ms. Koenigsberg.  3 MS. KOENIGSBERG:  My lord, part of the interrogatory which I put  4 to the witness and which we've been discussing is  5 from part of the affidavit which was of Mr. Michell  6 which was marked Exhibit 242.  But this part of that  7 interrogatory was not part of Exhibit 242.  8 THE COURT:  All right.  9 MS. KOENIGSBERG:  So if we could mark this as the next exhibit  10 and it is the excerpt from the interrogatory  11 affidavit of Mr. Michell, Question and Answer 18.  12 THE COURT:  Would it be convenient to call that 242A?  13 THE REGISTRAR:  We have a 242A — no, I'm sorry.  14 MS. KOENIGSBERG:  Yes, it is fine with me.  15 THE COURT:  All right, 242A then.  16 MS. KOENIGSBERG:  And I have another copy of it.  17 THE COURT:  I would like them to be kept together.  18 THE REGISTRAR:  242A.  19 MS. KOENIGSBERG:  EXHIBIT 242A.  20 THE COURT:  Can anyone tell me was 242 loose somewhere or is it  21 in a book?  22 MS. KOENIGSBERG:  I believe it is in a book.  23 MS. KOENIGSBERG:  242 is in tab 6.  2 4 THE COURT:  Thank you.  25  26 (EXHIBIT 242A:  Excerpt from Interrogatories Dan  27 Michell, Question and Answer 18, Tab 6)  28  2 9 CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS. KOENIGSBERG:  30 Q    Mr. Michell, you have given some evidence and we  31 have heard a considerable amount of evidence in this  32 trial about the ways in which the Wet'suwet'en  33 people learn about their houses and their clans and  34 the feast procedures.  And my understanding of your  35 evidence is that you learn that from your parents  36 and your grandparents and attending the feasts; is  37 that correct?  38 A    Yes.  39 Q    And does that carry on today that the way in which  40 the younger people learn about their houses, the  41 houses to which they belong, the clans, the stories  42 about their houses and clans and about the  43 procedures or protocol at the feast is the same way,  44 through the parents and the grandparents and by  45 attending feasts?  46 A    Yes.  47 Q    And you have a son Brian Michell? 1  A  2  Q  3  4  5  6  A  7  Q  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  A  15  Q  16  A  17  Q  18  19  20  21  22  23  A  24  Q  25  26  27  28  29  A  30  Q  31  A  32  Q  33  34  A  35  Q  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  A  43  Q  44  A  45  Q  46  47  3926  Yes.  And do you recall him being part of a group of  students, three students from Moricetown who  received a grant to do some research on the  Moricetown Indian people in 1978?  No, I don't.  I just want to show you.  You probably haven't seen  it in this form, but I am showing you a document  which is headed More Stories of the Moricetown  Carrier Indians of Northwestern B.C.  And its  authors are Patsy Alfred, Ruby Mitchell and Brian  Michell from Moricetown.  And is that Brian Michell  your son?  Yes.  Does that look more familiar to you now?  Yes, I know what the name is.  You go ahead and keep that in front of you and let's  just open it and see if you remember it after  looking at it.  On the first page the table of  contents, for instance, Brian Michell is described  as youngest of the researchers.  He was 16 in 1978;  is that right?  Yes.  It describes that he was in Grade 9 at that time and  would be attending Chandler Park Junior Secondary  School in Smithers and that he is a Carrier Indian  and is a member of the Raven Clan, that would be his  mother's clan?  Yes.  Do you see that down at the bottom?  Yes.  And did you know about this project?  Did Brian talk  to you about it?  Well, these things are set up in school.  Yes, but this was a summer project, wasn't it?  If  you just turn over a couple of pages you will see,  for instance, a picture of Madeline Alfred.  And she  was a person who apparently was interviewed by your  son and the other researchers.  And she gave  information about tanning and leather work among  many other things.  Do you recall ever seeing this?  No, I didn't.  You never reviewed this project of your son's?  No.  Did he talk to you -- let me ask you if -- it says  that: 3927  1 "The students talked to and received  2 information..."  3  4 -- just dealing with the dedication --  5  6 "...many thanks go to the elders of  7 Moricetown for supplying the researchers  8 with the necessary information that was so  9 vital in making this book possible.  Also  10 to the people of the Moricetown Band who  11 co-operated fully in explaining many of the  12 other sections in this book such as the art  13 of drying salmon, making moccasins and many  14 other skills of our magnificent and proud  15 Indian culture."  16  17 Were you not one of the elders or members of the  18 band who assisted the researchers  19 A    You mean in setting up this --  20 Q    Well, in giving them information?  21 A    Oh, you mean for tanning moosehide and smoking  22 salmon, no.  23 Q    Well, it covers a lot of things.  For instance, it  24 covers the potlatch and its functions.  Do you not  25 recall your son interviewing you or any of these  26 people interviewing you and asking you about the  27 culture?  28 A    Not in the way that I am going to give them all the  2 9 information about everything.  Sometimes something  30 they don't understand they question you about it and  31 that's about as far as it goes when they come to  32 you.  33 Q    Yes, do you have a recollection of them coming to  34 you for anything, any information at all respecting  35 this?  36 A    They might have.  They might not know the names of  37 animals and stuff like that and they come to me.  38 Q    I just want to ask you if you know anything about  39 some parts of this.  If you turn over -- I have got  40 so many labels I can't find it -- to page 10.  There  41 is a section dealing with potlatch.  The  42 introduction says:  43  44 "The potlatches were held as a part of any  45 important ceremony such as marriage, death  46 and giving away Indian names.  Potlatches  47 were meaningful to native people in many 392?  1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  ways ,  I am just picking out some of the sentences.  Are  you familiar with this at all?  MR. RUSH:   Excuse me, surely there could be something a little  more specific than the question.  Is he familiar  with this page or it having been written or about  the potlatch matter?  THE COURT:  Yes, I think that's right.  MS. KOENIGSBERG:  I would be happy to make it more specific.  Q    Looking at this page, do you recall giving any  information or being aware of information being  given to your son or the other researchers about  potlatch?  A    No, if I didn't give it direct to them then I don't  know about it.  Q    And you don't know if you did or you don't remember  it?  A    I don't remember.  Q    I would like to ask you about some of this  information.  Under Potlatch System it says:  "Carrier Indians have five tribes, or  clans, with all its members having chief or  subsidiary titles and all seated as  specified places beside their respective  leader, at the potlatch hall, or long  house."  And then it sets out the five tribes.  And I think  they are referring to clans, is that what it looks  like to you?  Yes.  And looking at (B) it seems to be describing what I  took to be the Laksamshu, would you agree with me?  Yes.  And it has as members of the Laksamshu Clan, Namox.  No, it is not the case.  And that is not consistent with what you were  telling us?  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  No.  And as far as you are concerned they got it wrong?  Whoever did this they got it wrong.  And under five tribe (E) I think that is Tsayu,  isn't it?  Yes.  And that is the Tsayu Clan and it has Chief Kweese 3929  1 an her subchiefs.  And it doesn't have Namox, but it  2 would be correct by your evidence for Namox to be a  3 member of the --  4 A    Yes.  5 Q    — Tsayu Clan?  6 A    Yes.  7 Q    So whoever told the researchers that information got  8 it wrong or they got it wrong in taking it down.  9 A    Or the people on this little project did it wrong,  10 they misunderstood.  11 Q    Then the very last paragraph there it says:  12  13 "The modern Indian does not know the  14 potlatch system."  15  16 Is that a statement that you would agree with?  17 A    Some of the grown-ups maybe they don't, but I don't  18 think it is true.  They all know the potlatch  19 system.  20 Q    Is it fair to say that there would be a number of  21 elders who might feel that way about the younger  22 generation?  23 A    Not too many people are like that.  24 THE COURT:  I'm sorry, I didn't hear that.  25 A    Not too many people are like that.  They all know  26 the system, most of them do.  27 MS. KOENIGSBERG:  28 Q    Would some of the elders express that they thought  29 the younger people don't know the potlatch system  30 very well?  31 A    I don't know how to answer that.  I can't put your  32 question --  33 Q    You can't help us with whether that's an accurate  34 statement or not?  35 A    It is not an accurate statement.  36 MR. RUSH:   It is not —  37 MS. KOENIGSBERG:  Not an accurate statement.  38 Q    Now, you gave some evidence about the Carrier, the  39 name Carrier you may recall?  40 A    Yes.  41 Q    When Mr. Rush was asking you about the change in the  42 name of the Tribal Council from Gitksan-Carrier  43 Tribal Council to the Gitksan-Wet'suwet'en Tribal  44 Council.  And your evidence which is found in volume  45 60 at page 3683.  46 THE COURT:  I'm sorry, the page?  47 MS. KOENIGSBERG:  3683. 3930  1 Q    And it is about line 14 and I am just going to read  2 back to you.  It is a fairly short piece but it was  3 difficult to paraphrase so I am just going to read  4 it back to you and ask you to confirm it.  You are  5 being asked why the change in the name.  And you  6 say:  7  8 "The reason why it's changed was that we  9 were called Wet'suwet'en in the beginning,  10 always been called Wet'suwet'en, and that  11 Carrier -- I guess they call us Carrier,  12 the white people call us Carrier people  13 because of all along the valley there all  14 the way up even to Prince George and east  15 there they're called Carrier at that time."  16  17 Do you recall giving that answer?  18 A    Yes.  19 Q    And do I understand you to be saying that you as a  20 Wet'suwet'en person don't consider that Carrier  21 describes you -- that the word Wet'suwet'en has  22 always described you and that the word Carrier is  23 something that the white man has called you?  24 A    Yes.  25 Q    And I would just like to go back to more stories of  26 the Moricetown Carrier Indians.  And if you look at  27 the introduction on page 2 the third paragraph, do  28 you see that, the name Carrier?  I am sorry, the  29 introduction.  It says:  30  31 "The name "Carrier" originates from the  32 fact that carrier people would carry the  33 ashes of their dead on their back.  To this  34 day, this is the name of our tribe."  35  36 Now, this was written in 1978.  Is that consistent  37 with your knowledge?  38 A    No, it could have been from the white people.  I  39 guess they call it Carrier.  But I don't think they  40 use that name in our territory.  It has always been  41 Wet'suwet'en because of the fact that they lived  42 along the river like in a valley.  43 Q    Is the definition or the meaning of the word Carrier  44 as it is described here accurate to your knowledge?  45 A    It is white man's way, Carrier.  46 Q    No, the one where it says:  47 1  2  3  4  5  6  A  7  8  9  Q  10  11  A  12  Q  13  14  15  A  16  Q  17  18  19  A  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  Q  32  33  34  A  35  36  Q  37  38  A  39  40  41  Q  42  43  A  44  Q  45  A  46  47  3931  "The name "Carrier" originates from the fact  that carrier people would carry the ashes of  their dead on their back."  Have you heard that story?  Well, I don't think that is really in our area  because I didn't hear a story of it.  I didn't  anyway.  And as far as you are concerned, this is not  accurate either?  No.  And the Gitksan-Carrier now Gitksan-Wet'suwet'en  Tribal Council, is a Tribal Council made up by and  for the native people, isn't that so?  Yes.  And the white man really doesn't have anything to do  with that organization existing, that comes from the  native people themselves, isn't that so?  No, that first of all began back when they decided  that everytime -- every year there used to be  funding come into the district office to the  Department of Indian Affairs.  And every year there  used to be a problem in dividing the capital dollars  for housing out of project money to come in the  area.  And how they divide -- Indian Affairs  themselves have problems with it, what amount  supposed to go to different villages.  So I guess  they decided that they should have a District  Council, that's when it first started off as a  District Council.  So it started off, by your understanding, as part of  the administration of the Indian Affairs District  Office?  To make assistance for the people to decide where  and how money will be divided.  Is it fair to say that the making up of that council  itself was by the Indian people?  Not really.  It was something like I said to get  some kind of a council going working as a committee  to divide funds.  So it is your evidence that Indian Affairs would  have had a hand --  Yes.  -- in shaping the form in which it took place?  Well, we would say that but they recommended that  and people have always had problems dividing the  money at that time. 3932  Q    Okay.  I would like to touch on another topic.  Is  Peter Andrew Holland a member of your house?  It is  my information he is the son of Julian Holland and  Lucy Holland?  A    Yes.  Q    To your knowledge was he in the military service  during World War II?  A    He might have been in the army, yeah.  Q    Would you have any knowledge as to whether he was  conscripted or if he volunteered?  A    I don't know.  RUSH:  What difference would that make to this case?  COURT:  It could only go to identification I should think.  I don't know even at that.  KOENIGSBERG:  Well, I would think it would go rather  strongly to the issue of the jurisdiction of the  Federal Government about which I don't think there  is any issue, but I don't know what greater exercise  of jurisdiction can take place by a government than  by conscripting people for service if they indeed  did.  MR. RUSH:   Well, surely the point is that if the state is  engaged in a defensive activity and people sign up  under their jurisdiction that also is something that  I would suspect would be a statement my friend might  say led to the exercise of the state's jurisdiction  in that regard.  Conscription or not, it matters  little, does it?  Isn't the fact of the  participation in the military service of this  country the fact that my friend wants to establish?  How it is done I think is quite immaterial to this.  COURT:  Are you pressing the question?  KOENIGSBERG: The witness doesn't know and I don't think it  is going to help us. And documents are going to go  in at a later time I think if I have to put them to  this witness even if the witness doesn't know.  COURT:  I don't think you have to put them to this witness.  KOENIGSBERG:  Pardon?  COURT:  Surely you don't have to put it to this witness?  KOENIGSBERG:  I think that we are all operating on the  notion that when a person is put forward  representing a house that that may be the only  person from that house that we will be hearing from  in the case.  COURT: You put it to him and he doesn't know and I am not  surprised that he doesn't know.  KOENIGSBERG:  I am not surprised either, I just thought I  1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  12 MR.  13 THE  14  15 MS.  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32 THE  33 MS.  34  35  36  37 THE  3 8 MS.  39 THE  4 0 MS.  41  42  43  44  45 THE  46  4 7 MS. 1  2  Q  3  4  5  6  7  8  A  9  Q  10  11  A  12  Q  13  14  15  A  16  17  Q  18  A  19  20  21  Q  22  A  23  Q  24  A  25  26  Q  27  28  29  30  A  31  32  33  34  Q  35  A  36  Q  37  38  A  39  Q  40  A  41  42  Q  43  44  45  A  46  Q  47  A  3933  was duty-bound to ask him.  Now I want to move onto another topic.  While you  were chief councillor of the Moricetown Band you  were involved in obtaining financial assistance for  the Regional Industrial Expansion Department for  Trapping Assistance to assist trappers of the  Moricetown Band; is that correct?  Well, each individual put in their own application.  Yes.  And you were one of those individuals early  on, weren't you?  Yes.  And then it became more of a Band function, that is  a number of applications were put together in one  and you acted on their behalf; is that correct?  Well, in the end after two years of dealing with  that Trapper's Assistance Program.  Yes.  And then a guy by the name of Rae Mclntyre  recommended that only my name be used under  Trapper's Association --  Yes.  -- in order to get that program through.  Yes.  After two years and today it is not even completed  yet.  But you have entered into an agreement with the  Federal Government agreeing on certain terms to  receive funding to assist trappers of the Moricetown  Band; is that correct?  Yes.  Well, it is designed to assist each individual  in any case, but then it was forced on us back the  way it happened that I have to be the one to  represent other trappers  You don't willingly --  After two years --  I'm sorry, are you saying you don't willingly  represent them?  Pardon?  Are you saying you don't willingly represent them?  Well, that's the only way that we could do it he  says when we put it together.  Do you understand that you are to administratively  stand for them, that is to assist in being the  person --  Yeah, they form it.  -- who was dealing with the funding?  They form a Trapper's Association and then later on 1  2  Q  3  4  A  5  Q  6  A  7  8  9  10  Q  11  A  12  Q  13  14  15  A  16  17  Q  18  19  20  A  21  Q  22  23  24  A  25  26  Q  27  28  A  29  Q  30  31  32  33  A  34  35  36  Q  37  38  39  40  A  41  Q  42  43  A  44  Q  45  46  A  47  Q  3934  they are going to deal with it themselves.  And you were chief councillor at the time of this  program?  Yes.  Is that why you were chosen?  For some reason Rae Mclntyre suggested my name to be  used.  So in order to get that through, that's the  only way we could do it.  So like I said we waited  for two years since we put in application.  And Victor Jim worked with you?  Yes.  And he has worked with you because he is a member of  the Band Council and he functioned as community  council coordinator?  The other reason he put the application for each  people.  He help out in putting in the application.  Yes.  In order to get the funding you had to give  the government a lot of information about the  trappers; is that right?  Yes.  And one of the things that Victor Jim was doing was  to try to assist in getting together all of the  information that would be necessary; is that right?  Well, each individual had their own application like  the way I put mine in.  Yes.  And as I understand it Victor Jim assisted in  getting further information is this?  Of course he work with individual, yes.  And the purpose of this project and the purpose of  the funding for the trappers is to make it easier  and to increase the use of traplines of the  Moricetown Band; is that right?  In my case all our trapline has been destroyed or  lost when the logging took place. So at least we  are trying to replace some of it.  And the money that you were applying for and the  money that eventually you hope to receive all of is  for such things as cabins, traps, snowmobiles and  saws?  Yes.  And that's to assist in making it easier to get more  out of the traplines?  Would you agree with me?  Repeat that question.  You are asking the government -- the government has  a funding project for trappers?  Yes.  And those people that are going to be successful in 1  2  3  4  A  5  6  Q  7  A  8  9  10  Q  11  A  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  Q  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  A  30  31  Q  32  A  33  34  35  36  37  Q  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  A  45  46  Q  47  A  3935  getting money to help them with the trapping are  those people who can show that it will increase the  use of their trapline; is that right?  Well, like I said, you know, to replace the  equipment that they had before.  Yes, or in some --  Or in some cases you see like the traps they are  being used now they tell them that's banned,  leghold.  Leghold traps are now banned?  Yes, that's what they tell us and the supplier still  sells them.  And Billy was trapping in our territory  and the Fish and Wildlife officer came in and told  him he can't use those traps any more.  So I went  and talked to the head of that Fish and Wildlife  Branch and tell them:  What's the meaning of this,  suppliers are still selling those traps and how come  you are banning us from using it?  So in order to  get more traps, different types of traps so people  wanted to get some assistance and that's how it came  about.  Was one of the reasons, to your knowledge, for  applying for the funding and increasing the use of  the traplines was a concern on the part of the  Moricetown Indian Band that the Provincial  Government might bring in legislation which would  take away trapline registration if you hadn't used  it for up to two years?  Well, in most cases, you know, like you have to  travel a long ways now to set traps too.  Yes.  And as before it is not too far to walk with  snowshoes where you can have 30, 35 traps.  But now  with the road out in there you have to use those  open roads to go with snowmobile in order to get to  where you can trap now.  Yes.  Can you agree with my characterization that  one of the concerns of the Moricetown Band in  applying for this funding in order to increase their  trapping activity was to begin to make use of  traplines so that you wouldn't lose them should the  Provincial Government bring in legislation which  would take them away for non-use?  I don't think that was the main reason why they  applied for it.  Is that one of the reasons?  No. 3936  1 MS. KOENIGSBERG:  I just want to show you a letter.  2 MR. RUSH:  May I see it please.  3 MS. KOENIGSBERG:  Just a moment.  It is not written by you, it  4 is written by Victor Jim.  5 MR. RUSH:  Well, before he comments on it perhaps I can see it.  6 MS. KOENIGSBERG:  Certainly.  7 Q    Would you just look at that letter.  It is written  8 May 1985 by Victor Jim?  9 A    Yes.  10 Q    It concerns this project?  11 A    Yes.  12 Q    Were you aware of that letter?  13 A    Well, like I say he was dealing with individuals  14 separately.  15 Q    Yes.  16 A   And he might have got that information from some of  17 the tribe.  18 Q    And I just ask you to look at paragraph 4 on the  19 first page.  If you just read that over.  And he  20 says there --  21 A    Yes.  22 Q    And as you will see from the applications many of  23 the trappers are requesting a good number of traps  24 which is due to the large area these trappers hold.  25 Many of them would like to use their trapping areas  26 due to impending legislation by the Provincial  27 Government where trapping areas not used will be  28 given to someone else and assume the someone else as  29 being non-Indians.  You were working with Victor Jim  30 on this project; is that correct?  31 A    Just for my part.  32 Q    Yes.  33 A    For my application.  But I didn't go with every  34 applicant.  35 Q    No, I understand that.  Is what is being said in  36 this letter consistent with your knowledge?  37 A    Not really.  38 Q    Not really?  39 A    You see my intention is different than others.  40 Q    There were persons who perhaps were not -- some of  41 the trappers who were applying from Moricetown were  42 not using their traplines and wished to begin to use  43 them more in order to avoid their concern about  44 impending legislation of the province; is that  45 right?  46 A    Well, I guess it would be because -- like some  47 areas, you know, when logging is going on you can't 3937  1 go in there and trap.  2 Q    There is some in which there was very little or no  3 logging, isn't that so?  4 A    Yeah, there is some.  5 Q    Now, I am just showing you another document dealing  6 with this matter and the first page is a letter  7 February 6, 1987 which is signed by you.  And  8 appended to it is an offer for the funding and the  9 agreement for the funding which is signed by Mr.  10 Robin Dodson.  Do you see that if you turn over the  11 page.  Mr. Dodson was Regional Executive Director  12 for British Columbia of the Regional Expansion --  13 Regional IndustrialExpansion Department?  Mr.  14 Michell, if you turn to the second last page that's  15 your acceptance of that letter agreement and it is  16 signed by you?  17 THE COURT:  What date was that?  18 MS. KOENIGSBERG:  February 6, 1987.  19 Q    Yes.  And there is just an appendix attached to that  20 of the actual approved costs and source of funds  21 for -- the funding for the trapper assistance which  22 you are to receive; is that correct?  23 A    Yes.  24 Q    And this letter which is signed letter agreement I  25 think we could call it which is signed by Robin  26 Dodson is the agreement which you accepted on behalf  27 of the Moricetown Band trappers; is that correct is  28 this?  29 A    Yes.  30 MS. KOENIGSBERG:  If we could just mark that as the next exhibit  31 and I will ask you some questions about it.  32 THE REGISTRAR:  306, my lord.  33 THE COURT:  Thank you, exhibit 306.  34  35 (EXHIBIT 306:  Letter of February 6, 1987 to Mr.  36 Dodson from Dan Michell with Offer of Assistance and  37 Agreement and Appendix of Costs Attached)  38  39 MS. KOENIGSBERG:  40 Q    Now, you've told us that you were chosen, if I can  41 paraphrase it, for administrative convenience to  42 accept this agreement on behalf of the Moricetown  43 Band trappers, is that a fair characterization?  44 A    Well, I feel that's what Mclntyre recommended.  45 Q    Yes.  And of course you were at the time you  46 accepted this chief councillor of the Moricetown  47 Band? 1  A  2  Q  3  4  5  A  6  7  Q  8  9  10  A  11  Q  12  A  13  Q  14  15  A  16  Q  17  A  18  Q  19  A  20  21  Q  22  23  24  25  26  A  27  Q  28  29  30  A  31  Q  32  33  A  34  Q  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  3938  I was .  But you haven't accepted the terms of these -- of  this agreement, you are not signing as chief  councillor, is that correct?  I just didn't know in what capacity I was signing  it.  Well, it says that you are the authorized  representative of the Moricetown Band trappers, is  that accurate?  Chief councillor, yes.  You were at that time, in fact,  chief councillor?  Yes.  And this is the project that you had been working on  in a couple of capacities over the last two years?  Yes.  And this --  First it began with individual.  Yes.  And then later on it came at the final end that it  has to come to me.  Is it accurate to say that as the funding now exists  it will be up to the Moricetown Trapper's  Association or the Band Council to determine who  among the trappers of Moricetown will receive  assistance?  Yes.  Is this something which is done pursuant to the  instructions of the hereditary chiefs or is this  done separately?  Separately.  And the hereditary chiefs have nothing to do with  this?  No.  Would you just turn to page two of the letter  agreement.  It is setting out numerous conditions of  the receipt of the funding, do you see that?  In the  second full paragraph it says:  "The total amount being offered to the  Government of Canada, Department of  Regional Industrial Expansion will pay the  full amount $28,109 provided the Minister  is satisfied that the following conditions  have been met and you have complied with  all applicable, federal, provincial and  municipal regulations." 1  2  3  A  4  Q  5  6  7  A  8  Q  9  10  11  12 MR.  RUSH  13  14  A  15  16 MS.  koen:  17  Q  18  19  20  A  21  Q  22  A  23  24  Q  25  A  26  Q  27  A  28  29  Q  30  31  A  32  Q  33  34  35  36  37  A  38  Q  39  A  40  41  Q  42  A  43  44  45  Q  46  47  A  3939  And then below that begin the 15 conditions or  further conditions, do you see that?  Yes.  When you signed on behalf of the Moricetown Band  trappers you accepted all of those terms and  conditions; is that correct?  Yes.  And you agreed that you would abide as trappers in  that area with all federal, provincial and municipal  regulations; is that correct?  Can you answer my  question or do you want me to repeat it?  Maybe he is reading all of the terms and conditions  just to determine what you referred to.  Yes, I think we have a covering letter that is  supposed to go with this.  3ERG:  I believe it is on the first page.  Is this your  covering letter that you have signed dated February  6, 1987?  No, a different one.  You have another letter?  Yes.  And the project is not completed yet so there  is another letter.  You haven't sent it yet?  I think it is sent to Mclntyre already.  Does it vary the terms and conditions?  No, it is that a covering letter stating that this  wouldn't interfere with our land claims.  I see.  Just so I can understand, when you signed  the agreement --  Yes.  -- February 6, 1987, you understood that you were  agreeable to all of the conditions for the funding  including that you would abide by all federal,  provincial and municipal regulations relative to  trapping?  Yeah, that's the reason why they got that letter.  You have sent another letter since then?  It was decided there.  It was discussed at that time  that there would be a covering letter.  Who would have discussed that?  All of us trappers and Victor was supposed to write  up that covering letter which he told me he did and  I kept reminding him.  It wasn't something that went with or near the time  of the February 6th letter, it was sometime later?  Well, he was supposed to at the time and he told me 3940  1 he did.  2 Q    So you are not sure when it was sent?  3 A    It could be in the hands of Mclntyre.  4 MS. KOENIGSBERG:  Those are all my questions.  Thank you, Mr.  5 Michell.  6 THE COURT:  All right.  Thank you.  It is 4 o'clock so we will  7 adjourn and we will have some re-examination, Mr.  8 Rush?  9 MR. RUSH:  Yes.  10 THE COURT:  So I shouldn't excuse the witness then?  11 MR. RUSH:  No.  12 THE COURT:  We will adjourn until 10 o'clock.  13 THE REGISTRAR:  Order in court, court will adjourn to 10 o'clock  14 tomorrow morning.  15 (PROCEEDINGS ADJOURNED UNTIL MARCH 1, 1988)  16  17  18 I hereby certify the foregoing  19 to be a true and accurate  20 transcript of the proceedings  21 transcribed to the best of my  22 skill and ability.  23  24  25  26 LISA REID, OFFICIAL REPORTER  27 UNITED REPORTING SERVICE LTD.  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47


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