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Delgamuukw Trial Transcripts

[Proceedings of the Supreme Court of British Columbia 1988-04-20] British Columbia. Supreme Court Apr 20, 1988

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 5247  J. Morrison (For Plaintiffs)  In Chief by Mr. Rush  1  2  3  4  5  6  THE REGIS1  7  8  9  10  THE COURT  11  MR. RUSH:  12  13  14  15  16  A  17  Q  18  19  20  A  21  Q  22  A  23  Q  24  25  A  26  Q  27  28  29  A  30  Q  31  A  32  33  Q  34  A  35  36  37  Q  38  39  A  40  Q  41  42  A  43  Q  44  45  A  46  Q  47  A  Vancouver, B. C.  April 20, 1988.  JAMES MORRISON, Resumed:  PRAR:   In the Supreme Court of British Columbia,  Wednesday, April 20, 1988.  Delgamuukw versus Her  Majesty the Queen.  I caution the witness and  interpreter, you are still under oath.  :  Mr. Rush.  Thank you.  Before we continue to the next area I  intended to pursue, I would just like to have the  witness shown the book of documents and, in  particular, tab 3.  If you would just take that out,  Mr. Morrison.  Thank you.  You mentioned the trail that went to New Kuldo, and  you see on the Skeena, in the left of centre, where  New Kuldo is marked on the map?  Yes.  Is that the place of New Kuldo?  Yes.  Now you will see there is a trail running up to Old  Kuldo, is that the approximate place of Old Kuldo?  Yes.  And then there is a place called Wilsamalgan.  Maybe I  can just have your -- assist me in the pronunciation  of that.  Just a before -- above Old Kuldo.  Wilsamalgan.  Now is that a place on the Skeena above Old Kuldo?  Yes.  That's where the log across the river and the  narrow canyon there.  The mouth of the canyon.  So that's a narrowing of the river?  And there is always a log there, when the river are  going down, you can see that on the river, right  across from the river, that's what it means.  And that is the approximate place of where it is above  Old Kuldo?  Yes.  Now I would just like you to follow that dashed line  up there, that is the trail line up the Skeena?  Yes.  And at the top there is another place name, Xsi wii  Gwaans?  Yes.  That is a place on the Skeena?  Yes. 524?  J. Morrison (For Plaintiffs)  In Chief by Mr. Rush  1 Q   Is that the approximate place on the Skeena above Old  2 Kuldo where Xsi wii Gwaans is?  3 A   Yes.  4 Q   What does Xsi wii Gwaans mean?  5 A  Well, the spring coming out of that, the side of the  6 hill there.  But it's a large amount of water come out  7 of there.  It's not just the spring there.  That's  8 what it means.  9 Q   A large amount of water coming out of the ground, like  10 a spring?  11 A   Yes.  12 Q   All right.  Now, I just want to direct your attention  13 now, Mr. Morrison, to the boundary between Tsabux and  14 Wiiminoosik where Luu Skadakwit is, do you see that?  15 A   Yes.  16 Q   Luu Skadakwit, what's the meaning of that in English?  17 A   It meanings all the wind falls there and on the trail  18 or between those mountains, it's really hard to go  19 through there.  That means that Skadakwit.  Luu  20 Skadakwit means the valley between those two mountains  21 and the wind falls, all the stuff drifting down from  22 the creek is what it means.  23 Q   Thank you.  Now, you see where Kisgagas village is  24 located and you referred to a small open triangle  25 there as Lax Ts'ap, which was a village site, I think  26 you said, of the Kisgagas people?  27 A   Yes.  28 Q   And I wanted to ask you if there were other village  29 sites of the people from Kisgagas, other than the one  30 that's located at that point?  31 A  Well, there is one about one mile below the -- where  32 the village is.  Almost in the corner here, and you  33 see it on the reserve here is where another place they  34 call it Jack Pine Flat and the Indian name is An  35 laagyaa Sim deex.  36 Q   I think that should be 640, my lord.  Yes.  37 Now, An laagyaa Sim deex, 640, that is located west  38 along the Babine?  39 A   Yes.  40 Q   And can you see it on the map or does it appear to be  41 off the map in the place where that white legend is  42 located?  43 A  Well, it's right into the reserve here.  Right into  44 the red line here on the reserve.  45 Q   Okay.  And that's on the west end of the red shaded  46 part, is it?  47 A   Yes. 5249  J. Morrison (For Plaintiffs)  In Chief by Mr. Rush  1  Q  2  3  A  4  5  Q  6  A  7  Q  8  A  9  Q  10  THE  COURT  11  MR.  RUSH:  12  Q  13  14  A  15  Q  16  17  A  18  THE  COURT  19  A  20  21  THE  COURT  22  A  23  THE  COURT  24  MR.  RUSH:  25  Q  26  27  28  A  29  30  Q  31  A  32  33  Q  34  A  35  Q  36  A  37  38  39  Q  40  A  41  THE  COURT  42  43  44  A  45  THE  COURT  46  A  47  THE  COURT  Were there any other sites that you knew about that  were village sites?  There is another further down, where the junction of  Skeena River and Xsugwin liginsxw.  That's the Babine River?  Yes.  And that's another one there.  What's that called?  Well they call Shaxwhl aks.  I think that's 641, my lord.  :  Thank you.  And that's located at the junction of the Skeena and  the Babine, is it?  Yes, about a mile upstream from the junction.  And that would be off to the left of this little map  that -- you can't see it on that map; is that right?  You can't see it, right.  :  A mile upstream?  Yes, up from the junction to the Skeena River and  Babine.  It's a mile up.  :  A mile up the Babine?  Yes.  :  Yes.  All right.  My question was:  If you follow the Babine west from  Kisgagas, is the place that you have just described as  Shaxwhl aks, is that off the map?  I think you can follow it here.  Here is the Skeena  River here.  And this is --  Do you see where it comes together?  This is what I am talking about now.  You know where  the curve is, right there.  This is the Skeena coming down from the north here?  Yes.  And this is the Babine coming in here?  Yes, and that is what I am talking about kind of goes  like that.  It's right here.  That's where the --  where it is .  Is it on the south side of the Babine?  Yes, that's on this side.  :  Just show me with your pen, but not marking it, the  course of the Skeena from New Kuldo south to Kisgagas?  What's the path of the Skeena?  That's on this side?  :  Yes.  That's on the left side going up and that's Old Kuldo.  :  But where, does the river flow here? 5250  J. Morrison (For Plaintiffs)  In Chief by Mr. Rush  1  A  2  THE COURT  3  A  4  THE COURT  5  A  6  THE COURT  7  A  8  THE COURT  9  A  10  MR. RUSH:  11  Q  12  A  13  Q  14  15  A  16  Q  17  18  19  A  20  Q  21  22  23  A  24  25  26  27  28  29  Q  30  A  31  32  Q  33  A  34  Q  35  A  36  Q  37  A  38  Q  39  40  41  42  A  43  Q  44  A  45  Q  46  A  47  Q  Yes, around here.  :  And comes back to Kisgagas?  Yes.  :  Where does it go from there?  Going down to towards Kispiox.  :  Is this the Skeena here?  Yes.  :  So it makes a loop and heads west again?  Yes.  West and then south, is it?  Yes.  So, the place that you have described as the Shaxwhl  aks, it's --  Shaxwhl aks.  It's on the south side of the Babine approximately a  mile to the west along the Babine from the junction  with the Skeena?  Yes, right there.  Now is there another village site that you know of?  And around Kisgagas on the Babine or have you named  them all?  Well, in the village, they don't call it a village,  it's just a camp in those days.  As I mentioned  yesterday, all those places are not really the village  until they put in the reserve in it.  Like this one  here, the word you mark it now as reserve, they call  it Lax wilp sint.  Lax wilp sint?  It means where there is an opening.  But it's right in  the middle here.  That's called Lax wilp sint.  Lax wilp sint that means the opening?  Yes, that's where the, living in the summer time.  Now do you have a cabin yourself at Lax wilp sint?  Yes.  And you maintain that cabin today?  Yes.  All right.  Very good.  Just put that away  temporarily.  Mr. Morrison, I am going to ask you  about another area altogether now.  Did you attend at  a feast in Burns Lake on April 4th and 5th of 1987?  Yes.  And was that hosted by the Carrier-Sekani people?  Yes.  And were you asked to go to this feast?  Yes.  Why were you asked to go there? 5251  J. Morrison (For Plaintiffs)  In Chief by Mr. Rush  1  A  2  3  4  5  6  Q  7  8  A  9  10  THE COURT  11  A  12  13  14  MR. RUSH:  15  Q  16  17  18  19  A  20  21  22  23  Q  24  25  A  26  Q  27  A  28  Q  29  30  31  32  A  33  34  35  36  Q  37  38  A  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  Q  46  47  A  Well, I am asked to go there because I work with these  people before.  And they always, working together with  them.  And they ask me to go with them and like  invitation for these chiefs, sitting at the table as  you have it in the photo there.  Were you asked to do something in particular,  specifically with regard to David Gunanoot's blanket?  Yes, they asked me to identify the blanket and show  what is on there.  :  I am sorry, to turn in --?  They asked me to show this blanket here, those white  spot on it and the split bear is what he asked me.  He  told me about this himself.  I am just -- I am going to come to that in just a  moment.  What, before we get there, I want to ask you  if that was the reason that you went to the feast in  Burns Lake.  Not only that but the others that we have been  speaking of at the -- on that feast they asked me to  speak on behalf of Gitksan.  Also the other speakers  on that feast, at that night.  Was a presentation made to the Carrier-Sekani chiefs  who lived at Bear Lake?  Yes.  And were you part of the presentation?  Yes.  Okay.  And what was the purpose of the presentation  that was made to the chiefs of the Carrier-Sekani,  what did you and the other people who made the  presentation, wish to do?  Well, we, mainly we talked about this territory that,  the history that being told by Nii Kyap, mainly by the  boundary, and the territory they were talking about  that feast at Burns Lake.  And was this to show them something, did you want to  show them?  Yes, we, I think that we trying to work together to  understand how we stand on this history of Gitksan  people.  And these people are the Gitksan people too,  but they didn't really understand that, where they  come from.  This is what we are trying to do it and  talk to each other at that time.  That's how my speech  is at that time.  Now, did the histories that were spoken of, did they  relate to the boundaries?  Yes. 5252  J. Morrison (For Plaintiffs)  In Chief by Mr. Rush  1 Q   And was it -- did you want to show them how the  2 histories related to the boundaries?  3 A  Well, Nii Kyap is the ones that told, spoken about the  4 history and we sitting there, all the chiefs from  5 Gitksan people are sitting there listening to these  6 histories of Nii Kyap.  And we find it, these  7 histories, we heard that many years ago, when my  8 father was still alive, and this is how I understand  9 this feast that when he spoke about this history, of  10 Nii Kyap's territory and it comes back to my mind what  11 these people were talking about, they told about the  12 story of the history of Nii Kyap of themselves.  13 Q   Now, Nii Kyap, David Gunanoot, did he make a  14 presentation telling them about his history?  15 A   Yes.  16 Q   Okay.  And when he was telling them, was he wearing  17 his blanket?  18 A   Yes.  19 Q   And did he speak in Gitksan?  20 A   Yes.  21 Q   And I understand Mary McKenzie was there?  22 A   Interpreting.  23 Q   Did she interpret for him?  24 A   She interpret that.  25 Q   Did David talk about the history of the migration of  26 Nii Kyap?  27 A   Yes.  28 Q   Now, I want to show you, at tab 5, it's hard for -- in  29 your copy, it's a photocopy, but at tab 5, is that  30 David Gunanoot wearing his blanket?  I will show you  31 my copy of it.  32 A   Yes.  That's the one.  33 Q   And that's David wearing the blanket that he wore at  34 the feast?  35 A   Yes.  36 Q   And that is Mary McKenzie beside David?  37 A   Yes.  38 Q   Now, I just want to show you back at tab 4, is the  39 blanket that's shown in tab 4, is that the blanket  40 that David was wearing?  41 A   Yes.  42 Q   Is that known as the split bear blanket?  43 A   Yes, that's this one here.  44 Q   Okay.  Now, did -- were you given permission to speak  45 about the blanket?  46 A   Yes, he did give me permission, just to explain a  47 couple of things here, the split bear and those white 5253  J. Morrison (For Plaintiffs)  In Chief by Mr. Rush  1 spot on those blanket there.  2 Q   Now, during the time of your explanation, was David  3 wearing his blanket?  4 A   Yes.  5 Q   David now has passed on; is that right?  6 A   Yes.  7 Q   Now, the blanket that's shown there in tab 4 and the  8 crest that's shown on it, you say that David gave you  9 permission to speak about the split bear, what did you  10 say to the people that were there about the split bear  11 and the white feathers on it?  12 A   You see these are the feathers, first thing --  13 THE COURT:  I am sorry, what are the feeters, the white spots?  14 A   Yes, I am going on after.  These split bears here, he  15 explain it to me, there is two of them, you see the  16 split bear, there is half there and two heads on it.  17 That means these two people are working together, and  18 one of them is Xhaimaadimtxw.  19 Q   Xhaimaadimtxw?  20 A   Sitting in the same table as Nii Kyap.  Nii Kyap is  21 the owner but also the Xhaimaadimtxw which is Abel  22 Samson today in English.  23 Q   Xhaimaadimtxw is a cheif in the house of Nii Kyap?  24 A   Yes.  25 THE COURT:  You said Abel —  26 A   Samson.  27 MR. RUSH:  We can give you a spelling of Xhaimaadimtxw.  28 THE TRANSLATOR:   X underlined, -h-a-i-m-a-a-d-i-m-t-x-w.  29 A   You see, the split bear call it Hap ts'ak'm smaex.  30 Q   Is that what split bear means?  31 A   Yes.  32 Q   You have used the word smaex, smaex means bear, right?  33 A   Yes.  34 Q   What was the first part of that meaning split?  35 A   Hap ts'ak'm, that means half.  36 THE TRANSLATOR:   H-a-p, t-s'-a-k-'m.  37 Q   And then smaex after that.  38 THE COURT:  Smaex?  39 MR. RUSH:  Yes.  S-m-a-e-x.  40 A   Hap ts'ak'm smaex, like for instance, to explain this  41 if you were smoking any fish then you cut it in half,  42 then one hanging on the tail end or which end that you  43 cut and put it over to the pole wherever you are  44 smoking it and it's split.  This is what I mean about  45 this one here.  But these two things here, they are  46 meant by two people, you see, two heads there.  47 Q   And you said one was Xhaimaadimtxw and who is the 5254  J. Morrison (For Plaintiffs)  In Chief by Mr. Rush  1  2  A  3  Q  4  A  5  Q  6  7  A  8  9  Q  10  A  11  12  13  Q  14  THE  TRANS  15  THE  COURT  16  MR.  RUSH:  17  Q  18  A  19  Q  20  A  21  THE  COURT  22  23  MR.  RUSH:  24  Q  25  A  26  Q  27  A  28  THE  COURT  29  MR.  RUSH:  30  31  32  Q  33  34  A  35  36  37  38  Q  39  A  40  Q  41  42  A  43  Q  44  45  A  46  Q  47  other?  That's Nii Kyap.  That's what you told the people in your presentation?  Yes, that's what I told them at that time.  Would you just carry on and say what else you told  them?  Yes, and also the white spot that call it, Guu daa  gaak, that's the Ptarmigan.  That means Ptarmigan?  Yes.  There is two kinds of Ptarmigan, that one is Ai  an' ii, the lower part of the boundary, but Guu daa  gaak is up in the high elevation.  Just pause there.  I think Guu daa gaak --  jATOR:  G-u-u, d-a-a, g-a-a-k.  :  That's the lower country, is it?  Is Guu daa gaak, is that the high Ptarmigan?  High.  And Ai an' ii.  A-y-e, a-y-e, is the lower?  That's the lower.  :  I am going to ask you what Ptarmigan is, because I  know two meanings of the word.  What sense are you --  What's Ptarmigan?  Ai an' ii.  You said those were Ptarmigan feathers?  Yes, just like the birds.  :  Like the birds.  Ai an' ii is there, my lord.  And I was using the  ship's "aye, aye".  A-i is probably the proper  spelling in Gitksan.  Now, what did you say the white Ptarmigan feathers  indicated, Mr. Morrison?  Well, these are the birds I am talking about, also  these Ptarmigan are called Guu daa gaak is up in the  high country and the other one is the snowflakes,  that's Xhaimaadimtxw.  The snow flakes indicate Xhaimaadimtxw?  Yes.  And were these Ptarmigan feathers to illustrate that  they were snowflakes?  In a way, but this is referred to the animals.  So it also refers to the animal or the bird, the  Ptarmigan?  Bird, yes.  Now, Mr. Morrison, are those actual Ptarmigan feathers  on the blanket? 5255  J. Morrison (For Plaintiffs)  In Chief by Mr. Rush  1 A  Well, there is a bird in there.  It is a bird in  2 there.  A whole one.  But you can't see it in the  3 heads there, but the other blanket, the old one, they  4 have it on there.  But this is another one.  This is  5 an old one too.  6 Q   Now, what else did you say about the crest to the  7 people?  8 A   You see, before they do anything with the land, to  9 explain this how it started at that time, that's how I  10 understand the history of Nii Kyap.  When he spoke  11 about that and it was really clear to me and also the  12 other people that are sitting there at that feast,  13 before the start in the feast, in those days, I know  14 my dad was attending one in Kisgagas, and before they  15 started on to the feast they wear the blanket to  16 explain why they are wearing the blanket and someone  17 that came and put it on to the man that took over the  18 name.  First thing is to do Wilksiwitxw, you have to  19 take one of those people, the Wilksiwitxw.  20 Q   That's the father's side?  21 A   Yes, the father's side.  22 Q   The crest, did you explain that the crest on the  23 blanket was related to the territory?  24 A   Yes, on the high elevation.  This is where they refer  25 to that land from high country, where the  2 6 Xhaimaadimtxw is, where the high land is north.  27 Q   What land was it that was referred to that was the  2 8 land of the high country of Xhaimaadimtxw?  29 A   The high country is where these, up in Tuudaadii Lake.  30 Q   That was in the Tuudaadii Lake area?  31 A   Yes, on this side.  Now I haven't finished on this  32 yet.  33 Q   Go ahead.  34 A   Before they start on this one and they also have, like  35 these birds here, I don't know what they made it out  36 there, and before they have a feast, and they also  37 have this bird, four or five of them, and these people  38 are sitting back there, and they watched them, just  39 to -- in order to identify the areas where they come  40 from.  41 Q   This is the areas where they came from?  42 A   These are the areas.  And that's why they are doing it  43 in the feast before they start the feast and all of us  44 do that.  At that time my father was attending at that  45 time.  And the birds are sitting there, just like a  46 real one, you can see it.  And when they start singing  47 a song, memorial songs of their own, and that's when 5256  J. Morrison (For Plaintiffs)  In Chief by Mr. Rush  1  2  THE COURT  3  4  5  MR. RUSH:  6  Q  7  8  9  A  10  Q  11  A  12  Q  13  14  15  16  A  17  Q  18  19  A  20  21  Q  22  A  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  Q  30  31  A  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  Q  39  40  A  41  Q  42  43  A  44  Q  45  46  47  A  the birds are start moving.  :  Mr. Rush, I am sorry, but I am not following this.  I am not sure if he is telling me what happened at his  father's feast or what happened at Burns Lake.  What I am asking you, Mr. Morrison, just back up a  bit, I am asking you what you said to the people at  the feast in Burns Lake.  Hm-hmm.  Are you telling us now what was said then?  Yes.  Can you just tell us what you told the people who were  there, the Burns Lake people who were present while  you were talking, and carry on, if this is what you  are telling them?  Yes, this is part of what I am talking about.  It wasn't clear if this is what you were saying to  them?  That's what I am saying to them because they have to  know that, that's in the house of Nii Kyap.  Why do they have to know that?  Well, they have to cover these boundaries where Nii  Kyap's territory is.  This is what -- this is why I am  saying this.  It's not what I am thinking what to say,  this is what these people that covered that history  there.  This is what he is asking me to do and I know  it's true what he was saying, this is why I am saying  it to the people.  If you will just carry on and say what else did you  say to them about the blanket or the crest?  You see, this is what I am saying to these people,  that what happened at that time, how to identify this  blanket to them, when the snow is starting to fall at  that time.  That's why they call Abel Samson, he took  the name now as Xhaimaadimtxw and the snowflakes are  coming down.  This is what I told him.  This is what  this history is just told at that time.  So, did the snowflakes and the Ptarmigan represent the  land of Xhaimaadimtxw?  Yes.  And that land was the land at -- around Tuudaadii  Lake?  Yes.  Now did the crests, did this crest show that there was  territory that belonged to Nii Kyap in the Tuudaadii  area?  Yes, they do.  Because they tell, spoken about this 5257  J. Morrison (For Plaintiffs)  In Chief by Mr. Rush  1 history at that night.  And the people heard what they  2 were saying at that time.  I am only referring to the  3 blanket here, at that time they want me to explain it.  4 This is what I am only doing it when he already  5 covered it himself.  6 Q   Previous to that, David had already told them what the  7 history of Nii Kyap was?  8 A   Yes.  9 Q   In Gitksan?  10 A   In Gitksan.  11 Q   Why was it necessary to tell the Carrier-Sekani people  12 the history of Nii Kyap and for you to explain the  13 meaning of this crest on the blanket?  14 A  Well, she already told the story, and some of those  15 blankets, it's not clear for some people in there,  16 that's why they want me.  And David is hard to speak  17 louder and always work with him, that's why he was ask  18 me to do that for him.  19 Q   Okay.  And did you know the history of Nii Kyap before  20 you made this explanation to the people at Burns Lake?  21 A  Well, a lot of people that talking to in their house a  22 few years back.  23 Q   You had heard this --  24 A  And that's the reason why I know when they told the  25 history at that time.  26 Q   Okay.  Had you heard it at the feast?  27 A   I heard it at the feast when they spoke that time.  28 Q   Did you say anything to the people about the crest  29 being from the mother's side?  30 A   Yes.  31 Q   What did you say?  32 A   You see the mother's side is what they are using today  33 is Gitksan law.  They use the Gitksan law as the  34 mother's side, because these people here at Kisgagas  35 are using this word in the beginning.  The reason why  36 they are doing it in my speech there, it's also known  37 with the other people are sitting on that table where  38 I am sitting there.  It's not just me.  The people are  39 using the mother's side because you know how the clan  40 is, the people in the clan have so many in the house,  41 some of them are less, some of them are more.  But the  42 way things are set up in those days, if you are going  43 to use it in your father's side, then a few years  44 later, then he goes down, it's not equal.  His goes  45 down.  Is not equal to the power of people.  Because  46 you can't raise children yourself as yourself as a  47 father, father only living with the wife that raise 525?  J. Morrison (For Plaintiffs)  In Chief by Mr. Rush  1 the children.  2 Q So you explained that the crest followed the mother's  3 side?  4 A Yes.  5 Q All right.  Now, who else was present besides yourself  6 and David and Mary McKenzie when the presentation was  7 made?  8 A There was Wiigaak.  9 Q That's Neil Sterritt senior?  10 A Yes.  11 MR. RUSH: That's 73.  12 Q And who else?  13 A Gunaoot.  14 Q That's number 20.  And Solomon Jack?  15 A Yes.  16 Q Who else?  17 A Spookw.  18 Q That's Steve Robinson?  19 A Yes.  20 Q Anyone else?  21 A And Galsiptihat.  22 Q That's Robert Jackson, is it?  23 A Robert Jackson.  24 Q Robert Jackson is from Miluulak's house?  25 A Miluulak's, yes.  26 THE TRANSLATOR: I don't have it.  27 THE COURT:  I am sorry?  28 MR. RUSH: She will give you a spelling.  29 THE TRANSLATOR:  G-a-1-s-i-p-t-i-h-a-t.  3 0    MR. RUSH:  31 Q Now, did these people make a presentation as well?  32 A Yes, they do in the first.  33 Q Did they -- what did they say about what David  34 Gunanoot had said?  35 A Well they spoke before and these own people here, Nii  36 Kyap's house, they are the ones that into -- and some  37 of those people here that in the feast, at that time,  38 with Nii Kyap's house are present and they living in  39 to Burns Lake.  They didn't understand this, what  40 this -- about their history.  41 Q You say there were people from Nii Kyap's house that  42 were living at Burns Lake?  43 A Burns Lake and Tatla.  And Fort St. James.  44 Q Now, what did the people that you have described,  45 Solomon Jack, Robert Jackson, Neil Sterritt and Steve  46 Robinson and David Gunanoot, what did they say about  47 the Tuudaadii Lake area, who did they say that area 5259  J. Morrison (For Plaintiffs)  In Chief by Mr. Rush  1 belonged to?  2 A   Belongs to Nii Kyap.  3 Q   Belonged to Nii Kyap?  4 A   Yes.  5 THE COURT:  Can I have it again, please?  6 THE TRANSLATOR: T-u-u-d-a-a-d-i-i.  7 MR. RUSH:  8 Q   Now, was Bear Lake, the area around Bear Lake, was  9 that raised as well during the presentation?  10 A   Yes.  11 Q   What did the Gitksan people who spoke, what did they  12 say about who belonged to the Bear Lake area?  13 A  Well, Wiigaak has spoken before me.  14 THE COURT:  Who?  15 MR. RUSH:  Wiigaak.  16 THE COURT:  Thank you.  17 MR. RUSH:  Neil Sterritt senior.  18 A  And he explained the owner of the territory.  19 Q   At Bear Lake?  20 A   Bear Lake.  And what was said it was Gitksan.  And  21 right up to that Tuudaadii Lake that we are talking  22 about, he is the one that spoke, from Kisgagas house.  23 Q   Okay.  Now, did he indicate, did Robert Jackson speak  24 as well?  I neglected to ask you that.  25 A   No.  26 Q   Now, the area around Bear Lake, was it indicated who,  27 which of the Gitksan chiefs that belonged to?  28 A  Would you repeat that?  29 Q   Around Bear Lake, during the presentation was it  30 indicated who belonged or who owned that area around  31 Bear Lake?  32 A   This is what I am saying, Neil, Wii gaak, tell those  33 people it belongs to Gitksan.  34 Q   Which house of Gitksan?  35 A   That's house of Nii Kyap.  36 Q   Okay.  Now, Mr. —  37 MR. MACKENZIE:  Excuse me, my lord, just to rise there.  This, ]  38 am having a little concern with this evidence.  I  39 don't know whether my friend is leading this evidence  40 for the truth of the contents.  If it is, we are  41 getting into a problem of information that's been  42 given to Mr. Morrison by these other people who are  43 still alive.  My friends generally have been trying  44 not to do that and have been relying on deceased  45 informants in their affidavits, about ownership of  46 territories.  This, in my submission, is very  47 important evidence, coming in about Bear Lake.  You 5260  J. Morrison (For Plaintiffs)  In Chief by Mr. Rush  1 may recall we have had other evidence about disputed  2 areas around this boundary so I rise to raise that  3 concern.  4 MR. RUSH:  I should point out that in respect to one of the  5 individuals, David Gunanoot, he passed on since this  6 particular meeting and it was given by the witness  7 that it was Nii Kyap that this belonged to.  Now, I  8 agree that so far as some of the other speakers, that  9 their presentation, that these people are still alive  10 and could give this evidence.  However --  11 THE COURT:  Well, they couldn't give it any more than this  12 witness could give it.  13 MR. RUSH:  Except they are the chiefs that, at least one of them  14 is a cheif that's involved.  15 THE COURT:  Well, I wouldn't have thought that would go to the  16 question of admissibility.  17 MR. RUSH:  Well, perhaps I am speaking ahead of myself.  Nii  18 Kyap is the chief that is really the chief that had  19 the knowledge in respect to this area at that time.  20 THE COURT:  I am not sure that I can deal with Mr. Mackenzie's  21 objection, if it is an objection.  Insofar as the  22 witness is saying X said this was Nii Kyap's  23 territory, then to the extent that is a statement of  24 fact, probably breaches the hearsay rule, does it not?  25 If, on the other hand, he is advancing it for the  26 purpose of proving what happened at the meeting from  27 which an inference might be drawn, depending upon the  28 response that statement receives, then it could be  29 admissible.  And I see all sorts of other  30 possibilities.  I don't know if you want to commit  31 yourself now, Mr. Rush, on the basis upon which you  32 are adducing this evidence.  33 MR. RUSH:  I am going to proceed a little further on this, my  34 lord.  The initial aspect of this evidence was what  35 was said by these chiefs to the people who were  36 gathered at Burns Lake.  So, I -- he is describing an  37 event and the event is the description that they gave.  38 That's the first aspect.  The second feature of this  39 evidence is what Nii Kyap himself said and what this  40 witness has heard from Nii Kyap previously and has  41 heard at feasts previously, about the ownership of the  42 territory at Tuudaadii.  43 THE COURT:  Nii Kyap is who again?  44 MR. RUSH:    David Gunanoot.  45 THE COURT:  He is now deceased?  46 MR. RUSH:  He is now deceased.  I take the position that this  47 witness, in respect of this evidence, can say what, on 5261  J. Morrison (For Plaintiffs)  In Chief by Mr. Rush  1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  THE COURT  MR. RUSH:  THE COURT  MR. RUSH:  Q  A  Q  A  A  Q  A  Q  A  A  the basis of reputation evidence within the community,  was the evidence of a deceased informant about that  area.  Well, I didn't say that I was implying, I was  certainly intending to say that I don't see how I can  deal with the matter at this time.  I think I should  hear the evidence and at some point along rule on it.  Let me proceed further, if your lordship will.  Yes.  Now, what you have told us here today, Mr. Morrison,  about what the other chiefs said, that is the chiefs  other than David Gunanoot, Nii Kyap, they gave  information to the chiefs from Burns Lake and from  Tatla?  Yes.  Okay.  Did they talk about an Adaawk, were there any  Adaawk's spoken of by those other chiefs other than  David Gunanoot?  Yes, the first meeting that they have in there, well  they already told them Adaawk so also the other chiefs  was with them at that time.  Now, you have indicated that you have heard the  history given by Nii Kyap before that relates to the  crest on the blanket?  Yes.  All right.  And you heard David give it again at this  gathering?  At this feast, yes.  And what is your understanding from that, about who  owns the Tuudaadii Lake area?  Well, the way he explained it and also the people are  sitting there that mentioned that name there, the Wii  gaak and they know these history cover that territory.  And this is how I know there is the truth in it.  Now, there was -- was there a dispute about who owned  Tuudaadii Lake area from people who were living in  Burns Lake and Tatla?  These people are disputing their own land, that's how  I am going to explain this.  These people from Nii  Kyap's territory, they are the ones that dispute this,  because they didn't understand that very well, but  they didn't talk to the chiefs and this is why I am  saying in my speech, if you don't know about this,  then you should talk to your chief and referring to  the house to talk to Nii Kyap.  They are the only  ones.  I can name them if you really want to know who 5262  J. Morrison (For Plaintiffs)  In Chief by Mr. Rush  1 their name was.  2 Q   Okay.  Now, the area of Tuudaadii, I would like you to  3 try and -- perhaps rather than do it mentally, I will  4 just ask if you would look, please, at tab 2 and at  5 Waiget's northern territory is the area you are  6 talking about, is that the area to the east of the  7 Waiget boundary that's shown on Exhibit 378, that's  8 east of the boundary, that height of land that you  9 have described?  10 A   That's up here.  11 Q   Okay.  12 A   Probably up here.  Yes, it's up here, above this one  13 here.  14 Q   And does it include the area directly to the east  15 of --  16 A   Yes.  17 Q   Of the Waiget territory?  18 A   Yes.  19 Q   And to the north you say?  20 A   Yes.  21 Q   Now, Mr. Morrison, do you understand that the area  22 that was being talked about is presently outside of  23 the external boundary of the Gitskan and Wet'suwet'en  24 claim area?  25 A   Yes.  26 Q   And having heard what David Gunanoot said, what's your  27 belief about that territory?  28 A  Well —  29 Q   The Tuudaadii Lake area territory?  30 A   He said this belongs to him.  That's what he said to  31 me.  He stated it three times in the meeting and I  32 heard what he is saying, and it's not only me that  33 heard what he is saying.  He said it many times.  34 THE COURT:  Can I just have a quick look at the map, please, and  35 see where we are?  36 MR. MACKENZIE:  Tuudaadii is marked in the upper tab, my lord.  37 MR. RUSH:  This is it here.  This is the area to the east.  3 8 THE COURT:  Yes.  39 MR. MACKENZIE:  This is the lake here.  It's quite a long lake.  4 0 THE COURT:  Oh, yes.  41 MR. MACKENZIE:  Here is this area.  42 THE COURT:  All right.  Thank you.  4 3 MR. RUSH:  44 Q   Now, in respect of that, just to take you back to the  45 crest, the crest that is shown at tab 4, that crest  46 relates to the history that was spoken about by Nii  47 Kyap; is that right? 5263  J. Morrison (For Plaintiffs)  In Chief by Mr. Rush  1 A   Yes.  2 Q   Now, how long did the presentation take, Mr. Morrison,  3 do you remember?  How much, how many hours did it  4 take?  5 A   You mean on that Nii Kyap?  6 Q   Yes, in Burns lake.  7 A  Well, his presentation probably about one hour or  8 more.  9 Q   And how long did yours take?  10 A   Takes me about five minutes or at least.  11 Q   How long did the other chiefs speak?  12 A   Some of them five minutes, two minutes.  13 Q   Now, was there, in respect of what was said, were  14 there any of the chiefs from Burns Lake or any of the  15 chiefs from Tatla, did they respond to David Gunanoot  16 or did they say anything in opposition to what he  17 said?  18 A   No, nobody speaks after that.  19 Q   Nobody spoke after that?  2 0 A   No.  21 Q   Now, you have indicated, Mr. Morrison, that the crest  22 is shown on the blanket.  Do you show the crest on the  23 pole as well?  24 A   They do.  25 Q   Okay.  And when the crest is shown on the pole, is  26 that also to demonstrate who owns the territory that  27 relates to the crest?  28 A   Yes, that's a landmark of that territory.  29 Q   Now, I would just like you to set that aside for a  3 0 moment.  31 THE COURT:  Mr. Rush, you haven't marked those two photographs.  32 MR. RUSH:  Thank you.  I will do that now.  The photograph of  33 the blanket with the Nii Kyap crest can be the next  34 photograph or exhibit, please.  35 THE REGISTRAR:  Tab 5?  3 6 MR. RUSH:  Tab 4.  37  38 (EXHIBIT 380:  PHOTOGRAPH AT TAB 4)  39  4 0 THE COURT:  Thank you.   And the picture of Mr. Gunanoot and  41 Mrs. McKenzie will be Exhibit 381 then.  42  43 (EXHIBIT 381:  PHOTOGRAPH AT TAB 5)  44  45 THE COURT:  All right.  Thank you.  4 6 MR. RUSH:  47 Q   Mr. Morrison, I would like to ask you about another 5264  J. Morrison (For Plaintiffs)  In Chief by Mr. Rush  1  2  3  A  4  Q  5  6  A  7  Q  8  A  9  MR. RUSH:  10  Q  11  A  12  Q  13  A  14  Q  15  A  16  Q  17  A  18  Q  19  A  20  Q  21  A  22  Q  23  A  24  Q  25  26  A  27  Q  28  A  29  Q  30  A  31  THE COURT  32  33  MR. RUSH:  34  Q  35  36  A  37  Q  38  A  39  Q  40  A  41  42  Q  43  44  45  46  A  47  Q  subject now.  You indicate, you told the court that  you hold the name of Txaaxwok?  Yes.  And before you held the name of Txaaxwok, what name  did you hold?  Ax K'oo'pil.  Ax K'oo'pil?  Yes.  That's 939.  Now, how long did the hold the name of Ax K'oo'pil?  15 to 20 years.  15 to 20 years?  Yes.  And before -- when did you take the name of Txaaxwok?  Around January, 1984, I believe.  And who held the name before you?  Eddie Russell.  Eddie Russell?  Yes.  Was he the son of Henry Russell?  Yes.  About how long did he hold the name?  About the same, 15 to 20.  And before Eddie Russell, did Eddie's brother, Alfred,  hold the name?  Yes.  And how long did he have the name?  Around that area to, 15 years.  About 15 years?  Yes.  :  I am sorry, we are talking about the name of  Txaaxwok, are we?  Yes, just the name Txaaxwok.  And Jasper Derrick held the name before Alfred  Russell; is that right?  Yes.  And did you know Jasper yourself?  Well, I was just a little kid at that time and --  How old a man was Jasper when you knew him?  70 years old when he died down the coast at Carlyle  Cannery.  Now -- I just want to ask you briefly about the other  chiefs in Txaaxwok's house, there is John Robinson is  another chief in Txaaxwok's house and he holds the  name of Wilitsxw; is that right?  Yes.  Is he about 80 years old now? 5265  J. Morrison (For Plaintiffs)  In Chief by Mr. Rush  1  A  2  Q  3  THE TRANS  4  MR. RUSH:  5  Q  6  7  A  8  Q  9  A  10  Q  11  A  12  Q  13  MR. RUSH:  14  Q  15  16  17  A  18  Q  19  20  A  21  Q  22  A  23  Q  24  A  25  Q  26  27  28  A  29  Q  30  A  31  32  Q  33  34  A  35  Q  36  A  37  Q  38  A  39  Q  40  A  41  Q  42  A  43  Q  44  A  45  Q  46  A  47  Q  Yes, around there.  Do you have a number for Wilitsxw?  LATOR: W-i-1-i-t-s-x-w.  Thank you.  That's 1154, my lord.   Now, Sam Morrison is your  brother?  Yes,  He is a member of the house too?  Yes.  And he has the name of Aats'uun?  Aats'uun.  Aats'uun.  And that's 94 0.  Maurice Derrick, you made mention of him, I believe,  in your evidence, and does he hold the name of Luu  Logam Sgook?  Yes.  And that's 943.  And we have heard you refer to Joe  Rush, he holds the name of Gwi hiisgyetxw?  Gwi hiisgyetxw.  944.  And Timmy Martin?  Yes.  What name does he hold?  Sga'nisim ts'iwingit.  That's 945.  Before you took the name of Txaaxwok, was  there a meeting of the members of your house to decide  that you should take the name?  Yes, there was.  Who was at that meeting?  There was John Robinson, my uncle, we let's -- and the  late Gordon Robinson is Gwi hiisgyetxw at that time.  He held Gwi hiisgyetxw, that's the name that Joe  holds, right, 944?  Yes.  Who else was there?  Wiigaak.  Wiigaak.  And what village is he from?  He is from Gisgagas.  Who else was there?  Gideon Johnson from Gitsegukla.  Gitsegukla?  Yes.  And who else?  Miluulak, Alice Jeffery, from Gitanmaax.  And --  Lawson Gray?  Lawson Gray.  Was his wife Shirley there as well? 5266  J. Morrison (For Plaintiffs)  In Chief by Mr. Rush  1 A   Yes.  2 Q   Where are they from?  3 A   They are from, Lawson is from Kitwancool.  4 Q   And Shirley?  5 A   Shirley is originally from Gitsegukla.  6 Q   Was your brother Sam there as well?  7 A   Yes, Sam.  8 Q   Was there anybody else there that you remember?  9 A   Spookw.  10 Q   Steve Robinson?  11 A   Yes.  12 Q   Now, was this meeting in Kitwancool?  13 A   In Hazelton.  14 Q   In Hazelton?  15 A   Yes.  16 Q   Why were these chiefs invited to the meeting?  This  17 was a meeting of members of the house of Txaaxwok, why  18 were the other chiefs invited to this meeting?  19 A   These chiefs are invited to witness what these clan  20 has to say on the clan, and have to witness that in  21 the meeting before they took the name.  And they have  22 to, these people sitting like Miluulak and Miluulak is  23 from Gitsegukla, that's Shirley Gray.  24 Q   So your clan was the Wolf Clan?  25 A   Yes.  2 6 Q   And he had the Fireweed and Frog Clan members to  27 witness this?  28 A   Yes.  29 Q   And, I think you said there were chiefs from Kisgagas,  30 Gitsegukla and Gitanmaax there?  31 A   Yes.  32 Q   And what was the discussion about that occurred there?  33 A  Well the discussion about who is going to took the  34 name, and I was sitting there myself too in that  35 meeting, before the feast, and they discussed who is  36 going to took the name when my uncle Eddie spoke and  37 he is the Wilitsxw in our clan is John Robinson.  38 Q   Yes?  39 A  And he spoke, first one that spoke to say that they  4 0 need someone to take that name.  And he pointed me to  41 take that name.  That's what he said when he first, in  42 his first speech.  And the reason why he said it in  43 his speech, that I am a man now to fit into that seat.  44 Because I know both those law, the law of Indian  45 people is important, that's what he said.  And to lead  46 the clan in the right direction, this is what he was  47 speaking about. 5267  J. Morrison (For Plaintiffs)  In Chief by Mr. Rush  1  Q  2  A  3  Q  4  5  A  6  7  Q  8  9  A  10  Q  11  A  12  Q  13  A  14  Q  15  A  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  Q  27  28  A  29  Q  30  A  31  Q  32  A  33  THE COURT  34  MR. RUSH:  35  A  36  37  Q  38  A  39  Q  40  A  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  Is the name Txaaxwok, is that a high chief's name?  Well, it's the same as the other two.  When you say it's the same as the other two, what  other two do you mean?  Wilitsxw, we each sitting in the same table, just as I  refer to the Xhaimaadimtxw.  So Wilitsxw and Txaaxwok, you say those two are the  same?  Yes.  Are they both high chiefs' names?  Yes.  After John Robinson spoke, who spoke after that?  Gordon Robinson.  Gordon?  Yes.  And he speaks about himself, that he was the one  in the clan that agreed with that because both of  them, him and John, that older, but they have  knowledge with all those other things in that land.  And they say, they have it declared to the people, to  these that's why these witnesses are sitting in to  hear that at that time, that's why they are invited  and they are saying that they are not healthy, both of  them they are not healthy so they have to choose me  and they agreed what John was saying, my uncle.  That  I was the one that took the name.  And has Gordon Robinson since that meeting since  passed on?  Yes.  And after Gordon spoke, who spoke then?  Well the other speakers from Gitsegukla has spoken.  Who were they?  That's T'oolixsim hloxs, Gideon Johnson.  :  Sorry?  Gideon Johnson.  And they spoke and they will -- all agreed with what  those others, other speakers was saying.  Okay.  And after Gideon, who spoke?  Wiigaak.  He is from Hazelton, Neil Sterritt senior?  Yes.  He is from Gisgagas.  That's originally where  the house is, we only refer to where the house is, not  where they are living.  That's where most important  things stating where these people are having a house  in the territory.  This is what people confuse, and I  only mention it because I said it just a little while  ago.  That's why it's important to state it where this  house is originally. 5268  J. Morrison (For Plaintiffs)  In Chief by Mr. Rush  1  Q  2  3  A  4  Q  5  6  A  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  Q  15  16  17  A  18  Q  19  20  A  21  22  23  24  25  Q  26  27  A  28  Q  29  30  31  A  32  Q  33  34  35    THE TRA1  3 6    MR. RUS1  37  Q  38  39  A  40  Q  41  A  42  Q  43  44  A  45  Q  46  A  47  Q  Now, was there any speech or presentation made by any  of the other invited guests?  Yes, they do.  Who else spoke?  Did all the chiefs speak that you  mentioned?  All the chiefs has spoken, that's why they are  invited.  If they see anything into this meeting, they  have to speak out and tell the people.  One thing, the  reason why this meeting, if they see anything with me  they have to deal with at that time.  That's the  reason why they was invited.  If they don't see  anything with me, they agree with what the four  spokesmen are saying and they all agree with that.  Now, when you went into the meeting, did you know that  you were going to be named as the successor to the  name of Txaaxwok?  Not really.  And did you agree to accept the name after the  recommendation?  Well, I do because the way these elders are putting  things together and it was very clear to me what they  were saying, this is why I am accepting it, there is  no other way to turn, except to accept that.  And I  know it's true what they are saying in my own life.  Now, you agreed to accept, to take the name of  Txaaxwok?  Yes.  Was there anything at the meeting that was said about  the territory and what would happen with the territory  of Txaaxwok?  Not in that meeting.  Not in that meeting.  Okay.  You gave the Gitksan  chief's name of Gideon Johnson, did you get that Miss  Howard?  LATOR: T-'-o-o-l-i-x-s-i-m, h-1-o-x-s.  Following that meeting there was a feast at which you  took the name?  Yes.  Okay.  And did that happen in January of 1984 as well?  Yes.  Now, can you just tell us who the chiefs were --  firstly, where was the feast held?  In Kispiox.  In Kispiox?  Yes.  And were there chiefs there who were from your 5269  J. Morrison (For Plaintiffs)  In Chief by Mr. Rush  1 father's side?  2 A   Yes.  3 Q   That's your Wilksiwitxw?  4 A   Yes.  5 Q   Who were the chiefs there that were from your father's  6 side?  7 A   Pete Muldoe.  8 Q   That's Gitludahl?  9 A  Wiiseeks then.  10 Q   He was Wiiseeks then?  11 A   Yes.  12 Q   And Elsie?  13 A  And Elsie Morrison.  14 Q   Was John Robinson there and Gordon Robinson from your  15 house and other members from your house?  16 A   Yes.  17 Q   And this feast was held in Kispiox at the community  18 hall there?  19 A   Yes.  20 Q   And why was Elsie Morrison and Pete Muldoe at your  21 Wilksiwitxw, what were they invited to do?  22 A   They were invited to put the blanket on the crest.  23 Q   Put the blankets on you?  24 A   Yes.  25 Q   And, is this done in accordance with Gitksan law?  26 A   Yes.  27 Q   And why were Elsie Morrison and Pete Muldoe, why were  28 those chiefs chosen to put it on you, were they high  29 chiefs of your Wilksiwitxw?  30 A   No, the same, Wilksiwitxw on the father's side, that's  31 why you never miss that.  32 Q   Okay.  Now, at the feast, were there speeches made  33 about your taking the name?  34 A   Yes.  First thing is, you have to go back where this  35 memorial song is sung at that time before they put the  36 blanket on.  37 Q   Was the memorial song sung then?  38 A   Yes, by Gordon Robinson, the late Gordon Robinson.  39 Q   That's the same Gordon Robinson from your house?  4 0 A   Yes.  That were sung at that time.  And they put the  41 blanket on and then goes on to the speech.  42 Q   Just before you go on to talk about the speech, I just  43 wanted to ask you about when the memorial song is  44 sung, what is the purpose or the effect of the singing  45 of this song?  46 A  Well when, while they ever singing that song, that's  47 memorial, that's today, when they are singing it and 5270  J. Morrison (For Plaintiffs)  In Chief by Mr. Rush  1 rattle, when they are singing it in a quiet way, while  2 they are singing that song, I can feel it today that  3 you can feel something in your life, it memories back  4 to the past what's happened in the territory.  This is  5 why this song, this memorial song.  While the chief is  6 sitting there I can still feel it today while I am  7 sitting here, I can hear the brook, I can hear the  8 river runs.  This is what the song is all about.  You  9 can feel the air of the mountain.  This is what the  10 memorial song is.  To bring you memory back into that  11 territory.  This is why the song is sung, the song.  12 And it goes on for many thousands of years ago.  And  13 that's why we are still doing it today.  I can feel  14 it.  That's how they know the law of Indian people, as  15 this goes on for many years and I know this is how  16 they have been handled in the feast, the first one has  17 to be the one that sung the song.  18 Q   Now, after the song was sung, and I am not going to  19 ask you about all of what occurred at the feast, but I  20 do want to ask you if Gordon and John Robinson spoke  21 at the feast?  22 A   Yes.  23 Q   And can you just say the -- what was said by John,  24 briefly?  25 A   Hm-hmm.  Well, you see, uncle John was --  26 THE COURT:   I am sorry, Mr. Rush, I see it's quarter after 11  27 and I have made an appointment.  We are at a point  28 where it may be more convenient now.  29  30  31    (Proceedings adjourned for short recess)  32  33  34  35  36 I hereby certify the foregoing to be  37 a true and accurate transcript of the  38 proceedings herein to the best of my  39 skill and ability.  40  41  42  43  44  45 Wilf Roy  46 Official Reporter  4 7 (PROCEEDINGS RESUMED PURSUANT TO A SHORT ADJOURNMENT) 5271  J. Morrison (for plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Rush  1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  THE  THE  MR.  REGISTRAR:  COURT:  Mr.  RUSH:  Order in court.  Rush?  Q   Thank you.  Mr. Morrison, just before the break, you made  mention of a memorial song.  And what is the name of a  memorial song in Gitksan?  A  Well, the memorial song is Limx oo'y, Limx oo'y.  Q   That's 633.  A   Limx oo'y.  That means -- when you say Limx oo'y, that  means way back many years.  That's where they explain  this, way back.  We never know when they're started.  It's way back thousand years ago.  That's called Luu  oo'y.  That's called -- Limx is the song.  oo'y is  many years in the past where the Indian people are  starting to sing that song.  Q   And that was the song that was sung by Gordon  Robinson --  A   Yes.  Q   -- at the feast?  A  At that time.  Q   Now, you were going to describe what John Robinson  said at the feast?  A   Yes.  Q   We're just about to -- he spoke at the feast, you  said.  What did he say there?  A  Well, he -- he first spoke, and to the feast at that  time, and he told -- he call me over and put his arms  around and said, "This is the man that's going to look  after the territory.  He took the name now of  Txaaxwok, so he wants to be in charge of this  territory".  And so was him, it was an elder.  But he  pointed the boundry, Xsi wii sa maldit.  That's  Surveyor Creek.  MR. RUSH:  That's Surveyor Creek?  MR. MACKENZIE:  Excuse me, my lord.  Could Mr. Rush advise the  Court whether John Robinson is still alive, please?  MR. RUSH:  Yes.  John Robinson is still alive.  MR. MACKENZIE:  And this evidence is now about the Txaaxwok  territory and the Adam Lake outside the land claim  territory.  MR. RUSH:  I don't intend to call this evidence to prove  Txaaxwok's territory.  I'm calling it for the purposes  of demonstrating that at a Gitksan feast in Kispiox,  the boundary is talked of and described.  THE COURT:  Was talked about and described.  MR. RUSH:  Was talked about and described, and this is what was 5272  J. Morrison (for plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Rush  1 said by the senior chief of the house.  2 THE COURT:  Well, I'll have to leave it to you, Mr. Rush.  I  3 have some difficulties in seeing how it's going to be  4 useful evidence.  It seems to me that for this purpose  5 it might be enough to say that they talked about the  6 boundary on this occasion and whatever else you think  7 might be of assistance, but to go through the  8 conversations, I'm somewhat doubtful of its  9 usefulness, but I'll have to leave that up to you.  10 MR. RUSH:  All right.  Okay.  Can I just get the — the Gitksan  11 word that was used there, please?  12 THE SPELLER  13 THE WITNESS  14 THE SPELLER  Xsi wii sa maldit?  Xsi wii sa maldit.  X-s-i-space-w-i-1-space-s-a-m-a-1-d-i-t.  15 THE COURT:  M-a-1-d-i-t?  16 THE SPELLER:  Um-hum.  17 THE COURT:  I wasn't able to discern whether you said in the  18 second word w-i-1 or w-i-t.  19 THE SPELLER:  W-i-1.  2 0 THE COURT:  Yes.  Thank you.  21 THE REGISTRAR:  And the last letter is T as in Tom.  22 THE COURT:  M-a-1-d-i-t?  23 THE SPELLER:  Yes.  24 THE COURT:  Thank you, Mr. Rush.  2 5 MR. RUSH:  26 Q   It's not necessary to say all of what was described by  27 Mr. Robinson at this time, but did he -- did he  28 describe the major landmarks on the boundary of  29 Txaaxwok?  You mentioned Xsi wii sa maldit?  30 A   Yes.  31 Q   What other areas did he describe?  32 A   He talked below the White River, about two and a half  33 miles below the White River.  34 Q   That's the southern boundary?  Is that the southern  35 boundary?  36 A   Southern boundary.  This is the concern of the chiefs.  37 That's why he started from the further north boundary  38 to the southern boundary.  That's what he said at that  39 time.  They're not concerned of on top of the  40 mountain, the height of land.  That's why he stated on  41 that, because that's where the top is at the time.  42 That's why he said it at that time.  43 Q   So did he -- did he describe the boundary in general  44 terms, or how did he describe it?  45 A   Yeah, in general.  4 6 Q   Did you know where the boundary was?  47 A   Yeah.  Right up to -- to Xsi wii sa maldit, started 5273  J. Morrison (for plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Rush  1 from Bell Irvin up to and anyee up to height of land.  2 It goes beyond that.  That's Xsi wii sa maldit.  3 Q   All right.  Now, after the boundary description was  4 given, what else did John say?  5 A   He said that I was the one that looking after that at  6 that time.  7 Q   Yes?  8 A  And also him saying the sheet with him on that table  9 and I'll share the land with him.  10 Q   Okay.  Who spoke after John?  11 A   Gordon Robinson.  That's his brother.  12 Q   And after -- after Gordon?  13 A   Yes.  14 Q   Who spoke then?  15 A   Steve.  That's Spookw.  16 Q   And can you say the other chiefs who spoke at the  17 feast?  Did Richard Benson spoke?  18 A   Yes.  Richard Benson spoke.  He said he was into that  19 territory himself before that time.  He stated to the  20 people, if I need help and to that territory, he  21 would -- he would be happy to -- to help me on that  22 territory.  That's what he said.  23 Q   Okay.  Had Richard lived there?  24 A   Yeah.  Lives on the outlet there, on the lake,  25 Maziedan Lake before that.  26 Q   Now, who else spoke at the feast?  27 A   Spookw.  28 Q   Stanley -- or Steve Robinson?  29 A   Yeah.  Spookw.  30 Q   And who else?  31 A  Wii gaak.  That's in the wolf clan.  32 Q   Yes?  33 A  Also Gordon Johnson.  That's in wolf clan again.  34 Q   In the wolf clan?  35 A   Yes.  36 Q   Were there people that spoke from the fireweed clan?  37 A   I'm speaking about our clan that put up the feast.  38 Q   Yes.  You're now speaking about the people from your  39 clan that spoke?  40 A   Yes.  And after that, see, I spoke to accept that, the  41 same as that before in that meeting, to accept it, and  42 I stated what I have to do and to that land.  After I  43 spoke, I clarified with the people what I'm going to  44 do, what Wilitsxw was telling me, to pass information  45 to me, also Richard Benson to show me where the  46 boundary is and all the names of the mountain, all the  47 names of the creeks, is what the Richard Benson was 5274  J. Morrison (for plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Rush  1 saying, because he's well known in that himself.  He  2 lives there, and he knows all the creeks and rivers  3 and mountains.  That's what he -- why he said it to me  4 that he will help me, and he did.  5 Q   Okay.  Now, were there others who spoke from other  6 clans?  7 A   Yes.  This is when I finish.  This is how the law is.  8 When the main chief is finished, like when we finished  9 outside to put up the feast, then I said, "This is the  10 last spokesman of -- in our clan as wolf clan".  Then  11 the first chiefs of our side witness.  Like, the first  12 one to speak is our witness, what they call Wii Nidil.  13 That's what in our language in Indian.  14 Q   Wii Nidil?  15 A  Wii Nidil.  16 MR. RUSH:  Okay.  Could you assist us?  17 THE SPELLER:  W-i-l-space-n-i-d-i-1.  18 MR. RUSH:  19 Q   Okay.  And who was the Wii Nidil that spoke?  20 A   That's Xam axyeltxw, and that's Solomon Marsden.  21 That's frog clan.  You sitting across the table.  22 That's what it means, you sitting across the table  23 with these people.  And that's -- they're your witness  24 in the House of Kitwancool.  They're sitting right  25 across from you.  That's their witness.  That's why  26 the first one to speak in that feast was Solomon  27 Marsden, and he speak --  28 Q   He was the first one to speak from another clan?  29 A   From their clan, just to either approve it or  30 disapprove it, but he said that "I thank God for this  31 man that was taking that name.  We need to work  32 together.  We need something that we can put together,  33 even although they have different clans".  But as I  34 stated, when there's witness across from there, if  35 there was any problems, and the other clan, they  36 always call us to be witness, like when we started  37 from -- from that meeting.  This is what I'm talking  38 about.  39 Q   Yes.  All right.  Now, what was Solomon Marsden's name  40 again?  41 A   Xam axyeltxw.  42 MR. RUSH:  Do you have that?  43 THE SPELLER:  It's 85 on the plaintiff's list.  4 4 MR. RUSH:  45 Q   Yes.  Thank you.  Now, after Solomon spoke, Mr.  46 Morrison, who spoke after that?  47 A   Stanley -- Stanley Williams. 5275  J. Morrison (for plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Rush  1 Q   Okay.  He's from Gitsegukla?  2 A   Yes.  3 Q   Were there other chiefs from Gitsegukla that spoke?  4 A   Hyzimes.  5 Q   Is that Ernest Hyzimes?  6 A   That's Gwogl'lo.  7 THE SPELLER:  It's 17.  8 MR. RUSH:  9 Q   17, my lord.  10 Now, were there chiefs from the Village of Kispiox  11 who spoke?  12 A   Yes.  Stanley Wilson.  13 Q   Anyone else?  14 A   Geel, and from Gitanmaax is Djogaslee.  15 Q   That's 8 for Geel, my lord, and 5 for Djogaslee.  16 Djogaslee is?  17 A  Walter Wilson.  18 Q   Now, what did -- did the witnesses approve of your  19 taking the name of Txaaxwok?  20 A   Yes, they do.  21 Q   And did -- was the blanket placed on you at this  22 feast?  23 A   Yes.  24 Q   This is Txaaxwok's blanket, was it?  25 A   Yes.  26 Q   By Elsie Morrison and Pete Muldoe?  27 A   Yes.  28 Q   Your wilksiwitxw?  29 A   Yes.  30 Q   All right.  Now, was it necessary to have these  31 witnesses from the other clans present?  32 A   Yes.  33 Q   Why was that?  34 A  Well, that's on the father's side.  It means that  35 these people -- I belong to these people.  That's what  36 it means, wilksiwitxw.  That's my father's side.  And  37 also many years in the past, always follow this --  38 this law.  If anything that you do, you always pick  39 out those people, that wilksiwitxw.  Really close to  40 your father.  This is what it means, really close to  41 your father.  This is why they picked those two people  42 out.  43 Q   Now, of all the witnesses who -- you had a number of  44 witnesses from the frog and the fireweed clans?  45 A   Yes.  46 Q   And these were especially from the frog clan.  Why was  47 it necessary to have witnesses from the frog clan too? 5276  J. Morrison (for plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Rush  1 A  Well, this is the law that they follow, always have  2 these people as witness, the frog clan.  They're close  3 from our table.  This is what it means.  Same as the  4 other -- other villages.  They have their witness.  5 That's why they call it Wii Nidil.  6 Q   Now, since you've taken the name of Txaaxwok -- you  7 said this is a high name.  Have there been -- are  8 there new responsibilities that you have as the holder  9 of a high name?  10 A   Yes.  You have the responsibility on the land.  11 Q   Are there responsibilities for the house as well?  12 A   Yes.  We call this one T'sim Daak.  13 Q   Your house is T'sim Daak?  You mentioned that at the  14 beginning?  15 A   Yes.  16 Q   Now, maybe just -- what are some of your  17 responsibilities as a high chief to your house?  18 A  Well, first thing is you -- you have to talk to your  19 clan.  You have to teach them, and you have to show  20 them direction.  This is why we have chosen to be the  21 leader, or the spiritual leader.  This is why I have  22 chosen to lead you people, to show them how to hunt,  23 show you how to make trails, to use that land so you  24 working on this land all this time, not to sit back  25 and wait.  You always on the move all the time.  This  26 is what it means to be a spiritual leader.  27 Q   Okay.  Now, are there -- are there responsibilities  28 that you have to the -- to the land?  29 A   Yes.  And the feast.  30 Q   And the feast?  31 A   Feast.  32 Q   All right.  What are your responsibilities, say, first  33 to the feast?  34 A   See, there's someone that's passed on.  This example  35 for Gordon Robinson.  This is Gwi hiisgyetxw.  36 Q   Gwi hiisgyetxw?  37 A   Yes.  38 Q   Just pause there for a moment.  39 Q   Is that the name that Joe Rush now holds?  40 A   Yes.  41 Q   All right.  And that is 944.  Yes.  Now, what — what  42 were you going to say about your responsibilities  43 there?  44 A   See, when he passed on, I was the first one to contact  45 at that time when he passed on, and I knew about it.  46 Then I went over there and start preparing right away  47 what we going to do and do that feast.  So many of us, 5277  J. Morrison (for plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Rush  1 like ten of us -- I would say 10.  There's many others  2 too, but the main ones, the subchiefs that you contact  3 at that time, that's your responsibility to do that as  4 a chief.  Then you ask them -- see, ten of those  5 chiefs, they can do a lot if you only handle it.  6 That's the way it should be.  That's what these are  7 stated in that feast.  So we only follow the law.  And  8 then there's death of Gordon Robinson, so they were  9 contacted.  So I'll also contact the other people in  10 my clan to prepare the hall, to prepare all those  11 other things.  So I -- I call them and I ask them,  12 "See all different jobs that you can do.  You can  13 prepare a place where you can -- or you can phone a  14 place where you can have a feast, and you have chairs  15 to be set up or hire somebody else to do that on the  16 other side of the clan and keep your record on that  17 time, because I can't keep them all".  These people  18 has to do those things.  This is what you -- your  19 direction as the chief is to give to the other people  20 to do.  That's what they're there for as the  21 subchiefs.  This is our responsibility and the  22 chief's.  Also the land.  It works in the same way  23 with the land too.  24 Q   In respect of the land, what were your  25 responsibilities, or what are your responsibilities?  26 A   Yes.  Yes.  27 Q   What kind of responsibilities do you have there?  28 A   In the land, that you going out there.  And you have  29 the same people as we mentioned there.  You ask them  30 to go out there, and different groups, as I touched it  31 yesterday -- and these are the responsibility to  32 looking after the -- the territory and to keep track  33 with what they're caught onto that territory, also to  34 keep the trail, also keep the other things moving all  35 the time, so you know what's onto that land.  36 Q   Have you trapped on the territory of Txaaxwok  37 yourself?  38 A   Yes.  39 Q   And do you -- do you trap -- do you trap there today?  40 A   Yes.  41 Q   Do you -- are you -- are you a registered holder of a  42 trapline on Txaaxwok's territory?  43 A   Yes.  44 Q   How long have you held that line; can you recall?  45 A  About three years ago when it's transferred.  The Fish  46 and Wildlife is policy there.  47 Q   All right.  Before you had the -- before the trapline 527?  J. Morrison (for plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Rush  1 was transferred, did you trap on the territory?  2 A   Yes, I did.  3 Q   Okay.  Can you say how many years you've been hunting  4 or trapping on the territory?  5 A  Well, first it would be off and on.  We've got a lot  6 of territory to cover in those days, as you stated  7 before.  I mean, my father, they have their own  8 territory, but also we into White River.  We trapped  9 it either '48 or '49, at that time, into White River.  10 That's on Txaaxwok's territory.  11 Q   You hunt in there too?  12 A   Hunting.  That's when Alfred was holding the name at  13 that time, and Alfred was with us at that time.  14 Q   Now, is there a -- is there presently a pole that  15 belongs to Txaaxwok that is standing?  16 A   Not standing.  17 Q   Is there -- is it your intention to raise a -- a pole?  18 A  Well, one's supposed to be raised at some time.  I  19 don't know when.  20 Q   And when were you -- when were you thinking of raising  21 the pole?  22 A  Well, any time now, but we in the courtroom now, so I  23 can't raise in the same time.  24 Q   And will this pole be raised as a headstone for the  25 former Txaaxwok?  26 A   Yes.  27 Q   And when the pole is raised, will there be a feast?  28 A   Yes.  29 Q   When -- do you have an idea of when you would actually  30 have the feast?  31 A  We plan it this month, this coming week now, and I  32 don't know.  I'll get in sometimes, because lot of  33 things has taken.  We like to have it on the weekend  34 if we can get in on May, so we can have it in May.  35 Q   In May?  36 A   Hopefully.  I'll not guarantee it.  37 Q   Has the -- is the pole that you intend -- or your  38 house intend to raise, is that -- has that been  39 prepared?  40 A   Yes.  It's all carved.  41 Q   It's all carved.  What's on the pole?  What crest is  42 on the pole?  43 A   Bear, two bears looking down to where that -- my  44 house.  They call it T'sim Daak, just like a cave, all  45 these things around in there, and that's what was on  46 the pole, and the bear, two bears looking down, and  47 the other was in the cave.  They made out just like 5279  J. Morrison (for plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Rush  1 a -- what they call that thing?  These two bears  2 looking down.  This is what's on the top of the pole.  3 And there's another one on the bottom.  So this is  4 what was on that pole.  This is why we put it as a  5 headstone.  That always use it as the landmark of --  6 of the hunting ground.  7 Q   Is the -- you mentioned earlier that T'sim Daak, I  8 think, meant two bears looking down?  9 A   Yes.  10 Q   And that is the crest of your house?  11 A   Yeah.  That's the crest of that house.  12 THE COURT:  Where will this pole be raised?  13 THE WITNESS:  In May if I can get in, because everything was  14 taking --  15 THE COURT:  Where?  16 THE WITNESS:  That's in Kitwancool.  That's — that's one of  17 those things has to be cleared on where the house is.  18 That's where the house is, in Kitwancool of Txaaxwok.  19 MR. RUSH:  20 Q   Now, the -- you indicated that your wilksiwitxw, Elsie  21 Morrison and Pete Muldoe, placed the blanket on you at  22 the feast where you took the name of Txaaxwok.  And  23 was there a crest on the blanket that you -- that was  24 placed on you?  25 A   Yeah.  That was -- as I stated there before, it's poor  26 man, what is Gwai, Gwai'yetxw.  That's the name of  27 that.  2 8 THE COURT:  What kind of a man?  29 THE WITNESS:  It's all skinny.  3 0 MR. RUSH:  31 Q   He said the poor man.  32 A   Poor man in two words, Indian.  As I stated before,  33 Gwai is a poor man and the other word is Gwai'yetxw.  34 Q   Yes.  Okay.  That is the crest that's on the --  35 A    On the blanket.  36 MR.RUSH:  Okay.  Now, we had a spelling for that, I think, Ms.  37 Howard.  I think you spelled that for us.  38 THE SPELLER:  Gwai'yetxw.  39 THE WITNESS:  Gwai and Gwai'yetxw.  40 MR. RUSH:  Maybe you could just assist us with that again.  41 THE SPELLER:  I just have the first, Gwai, G-w-a-i.  He just  42 said Gwai.  43 THE WITNESS:  Gwai'yetxw.  44 THE COURT:  Well, I have G-w-a-i-apostrophe-y-e-t-x-w for a  4 5 skinny man.  4 6 MR. RUSH:  Yes.  47 THE COURT:  And then I have another word, w-a-i-apostrophe-e-x, 5280  J. Morrison (for plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Rush  something unusual is found.  1  2  MR.  RUSH  3  Q  4  5  6  A  7  MR.  RUSH  8  9  THE  spel:  10  MR.  RUSH  11  Q  12  13  14  A  15  Q  16  17  A  18  Q  19  20  A  21  Q  22  A  23  Q  24  25  A  26  Q  27  A  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  Q  35  A  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  Q  45  46  47  A  Yes.  That's Wai'ex, which is the crest of Waiget, and  this is -- Gwai'yetxw is the crest of Txaaxwok, which  means the poor skinny man.  Yes.  Okay.  Now, is that the spelling that you have, Miss  Howard?  E1R:  Um-hum.  Okay.  Now, Mr. Morrison, you made reference to the  Limxoo'y that was sung at the feast where you took the  name of Txaaxwok?  Yes.  And you said that that brought back a feeling of the  territory?  Yes.  And you also mentioned that -- I believe there was  a -- a spiritual connection to the territory --  Yes.  -- through that?  Yes.  And can you just describe briefly what the spiritual  connection is that was brought back by the song --  Yes.  -- as it relates to the territory?  Yes.  This is what we remember at that time, because  you can feel it when you sing that song and spirits  connection is what is given to us in those days.  And  the -- the spirits, you can feel it.  You don't see  those things, but you also see the vision sometimes,  what's on the territory, while they're singing that  song.  Okay.  You always see it, and your face is going by the  spiritual things what's on the territory, and you  always see the creeks are going down.  You always see  the mountains and the wildlife was on the mountain at  that time when you're singing this song.  This is what  I'm talking about, the spiritual things, connection to  the land.  And you can see those things in your  vision.  You can't help but seeing it while you're  singing that song.  Okay.  Is there a -- is there a Gitksan word for what  you just described, the spiritual things that come to  you?  Call it Amet hexw. 5281  J. Morrison (for plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Rush  1 Q   Okay.  Maybe just say it again and Miss Howard will  2 help us with the spelling.  3 A  Amet hexw.  4 Q   And what does that mean?  5 A   That's spiritual.  That means life is the spirit.  6 Q   Okay.  Can you spell that, Miss Howard?  7 A   I'll try.  A-m-e-t-space-h-e-x-w.  8 THE COURT:  A-m-e-t means spirit, does it?  9 THE WITNESS:  Yes.  10 THE COURT:  And what does the other word mean?  Is that a  11 separate meaning?  12 THE SPELLER:  Hexw is spirit and Amet is good.  It's a good  13 spirit.  14 THE COURT:  All right.  Thank you.  15 MR. RUSH:  16 Q   Now, Mr. Morrison, when you -- when you said that the  17 song brought back the -- as though the creeks and the  18 streams were there, is this something that you saw in  19 your mind's eye or --  20 A   Yes.  21 Q   Can you just tell us what it was that the song brought  22 back?  23 A   See, this is what comes back into your memory at the  24 time when the song that was sung in the past many  25 thousands of years ago, and this is why you have to be  26 set as steady in order to receive it.  You receive it.  27 If you don't understand it, you're not going to  28 receive it.  This is what the spiritual things, and  29 that's why it's moving.  You can see it just like a  30 film in your eye, because you know it was on the  31 territory, what was on that.  All the animals that  32 you're going to be hunting, you can see that in your  33 spirit.  Today you can still see those things.  When  34 you mention today, I feel it, and that many people --  35 that today this is where they've been out to the  36 territory and sometimes the song in the feast.  That's  37 where it originally started from, in the feast, and  38 you can see those things, or it comes to your mind.  39 You've got to listen, be careful as today, and then  40 the spirit will talk to you.  And you always talking  41 to him in the same time, which is the creator this  42 time.  That's why it's the beginning in those days.  43 That the creator has direct to the Indian people in  44 that time.  They're talking to them.  45 Q   Is there a -- is there a Gitksan word for the creator?  46 A   Simoogit Laxhagii.  Laxhagii is higher than those  47 chiefs.  That's why I explain that. 5282  J. Morrison (for plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Rush  1 Q   Okay.  2 A   Simoogit.  3 Q   Means?  4 A  Means the chief, but Laxhagii is higher than the  5 chief.  6 MR. RUSH:  All right.  7 THE SPELLER:  651.  8 MR. RUSH:  9 Q   651.  Thank you very much.  10 Mr. Morrison, I'm going to ask you about another  11 area.  Now, I want to ask you about the Kitwancool  12 chiefs.  You are aware that the chiefs of the  13 Kitwancool are not parts of the -- of this court case?  14 A   Yes.  15 Q   And was a decision taken by the Kitwancool chiefs not  16 to participate as plaintiffs in the case?  17 A   Yes, they were.  18 Q   And were -- did you take part in this decision?  19 A   I was in there when I was just a subchief at the time.  20 Q   You were there as a subchief?  21 A   Yes.  22 Q   Okay.  Now, you -- by that, I take it that was before  23 you held the name of Txaaxwok?  24 A   Yes.  25 Q   Okay.  Now, what was the decision of the chiefs, of  26 the Kitwancool chiefs that you recall?  27 A  Well, the way I understand it, that meeting they have  28 is they all the same people, but they're not ready,  2 9 and some of them, they couldn't make up their mind  30 what they were going to do, whether they join this  31 group here, and some of them agreed with that and  32 they're not ready at that time, and they only give  33 them a certain time to make the decision, so the  34 decision was made at that time that they have to wait  35 themselves until they're altogether.  36 Q   Okay.  37 A  And what they have in their mind is with these people  38 here in the court today.  They support them 100  39 percent.  That's what they're saying at that time.  40 It's not that they against what they're doing.  41 It's -- they all Indian people.  There are no  42 difference in these people, but they're not ready at  43 that time.  That's why they didn't join into this  44 court case.  45 Q   Now, I take it that because -- was it because you were  46 a subchief that you were unable to speak, or did you  47 speak at the meeting? 5283  J. Morrison (for plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Rush  1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  MR.  THE COURT  A  Well, I did give them my views and that, but also the  other chiefs, but as I said, that decision was made,  but among people, that they're not ready.  Q   What were your views?  A Well, I can see it. We can use this. And my view is  to join them, and so also the others, not just me but  also the others. But what I'm saying is the amount of  people that say they're not ready, some of them  couldn't make their mind. They hear from the chiefs,  the individual chiefs that they have to make up their  mind, so they're not ready for that. That's why they  hold it for a while until they're ready.  MACKENZIE:  Well, I object to any of that evidence that's  been called for the proof of the contents of what  those other people said, my lord.  Well, it doesn't relate to any issue in this case.  It may relate to another issue in another case some  day.  RUSH:  Well —  COURT:  It's completely neutral whether other plaintiffs  decided whether to join or not to join in this  action --  RUSH:  I quite agree.  COURT:  -- for other reasons.  RUSH:  I quite agree, but it's not an issue that's been  raised by the plaintiffs.  It's an issue that's been  crossed on and it's for that reason that this evidence  was led, and I'm content to leave it on this.  I mean,  if my friend has no interest in this evidence, then so  be it, but I -- in my submission, the -- previously  the matter was a subject of cross-examination, and I  led it to proffer an explanation for the conduct of  those chiefs.  MACKENZIE:  My lord, my objection was not on the basis of  relevance, although your lordship did comment on  relevance.  My principal objection was on the  principle of hearsay as to the reason -- or what the  other chiefs said at that meeting.  THE COURT:  Well, I'm not sure that he's given me what people  said.  He was giving me a conclusion, or a consensus,  I suppose, is not accurate because consensus means  unanimous or almost unanimous, but I don't know if I  have a majority here or something in between.  I don't  think it matters in this case whether it was  cross-examined on or not.  RUSH:  Well, I do —  COURT:  I can't see it being a part of -- I can't see this  MR.  THE  MR.  THE  MR.  MR.  MR.  THE 5284  J. Morrison (for plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Rush  1  2  3  MR.  RUSH:  4  THE  COURT  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  MR.  RUSH:  12  13  14  THE  COURT  15  16  17  18  MR.  RUSH:  19  THE  COURT  20  MR.  RUSH:  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  THE  COURT  28  29  MR.  RUSH:  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  THE  COURT  37  MR.  RUSH:  38  Q  39  40  41  42  43  A  44  Q  45  A  46  Q  47  evidence being a foundation fact for anything that has  to be decided in this case.  Well, I —  :  There are many, maybe thousands of parties that  could have joined in this action, not for the relief  claim but for an expanded relief, and half of them  could have -- half could decide to discontinue  tomorrow and the action would carry on with those who  remain, so I don't see how it's going to affect the  result of this case.  Well, I don't think there are thousands, my lord, but  I do think that there are other Gitksan chiefs who  could have participated in the action.  :  I'm talking in terms of those who would be  represented, if everyone who could have been joined  with or all the -- all the chiefs in British Columbia  could have brought one action.  I don't think so.  :  Well —  It conceivably is a hypothetical.  I see that as the  case.  But I think that in respect of what -- what is  being advanced as evidence of a society and a  distinctive society, then all of the chiefs could not  have done that in the province of British Columbia.  It would take such a society as the Gitksan and  Wet'suwet'en to do it.  :  The societies can be joined in one action, different  societies.  As long as they're identified as separate societies,  I quite agree.  However, here I do think the evidence  is relevant, and I think that the evidence of what Mr.  Morrison heard from the other chiefs is at least  admissible for the purposes of demonstrating --  leading your lordship to some inference about the  conclusion that they aren't in the case.  :  Yes.  And you've certainly heard his particular evidence on  what he said, which I do think is material.  Let me --  let me turn to another subject.  Mr. Morrison, you've told his lordship that you  are registered as a trapline holder?  Yeah.  And this is at -- I think you said Luu ska'yans't?  Yes.  And do you recall about the date it was that you  applied to register as a trapline -- registered 5285  1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  J. Morrison (for plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Rush  trapline holder?  A   '48 or '49.  RUSH:  Somewhere in '48 or '49.  COURT:  I'm sorry.  That's when you applied to be registered  as a holder of a trapline?  WITNESS:  There was registered before.  COURT:  Was 1949 the first registration?  WITNESS:  Yeah.  They transfer it.  That's what I mean.  RUSH:  Q   Transferred it to Mr. Morrison.  Do you know who had  it registered before you?  A   Simon Morrison.  Q   This is Simon your father, is it?  A   Yes.  RUSH:  Okay.  Now —  COURT:  Well, I'm sorry, Mr. Rush.  Was that in 1948?  WITNESS:  1948 or '49.  RUSH:  It was 1948 or '49 that Mr. Morrison applied to be —  to have the line transferred, the registered --  From his father to himself.  MR.  THE  THE  THE  THE  MR.  MR.  THE  THE  MR.  THE  MR.  COURT:  RUSH:  Q  A  From his father to himself, yeah.  Now, Mr. Morrison, why did you -- why did you  apply to have this area registered as a trapline?  Well, the Fish and Wildlife and the D.I.A. was  handling it in those days, and what they're saying to  us is when you register a trapline -- what they  explained to us at that time, when you register a  trapline, then you have better protection of these.  Fish and Wildlife say when they have registered  trapline, then no one can touch you inside that  registered trapline.  This is what they stated to us  at that time, but in that case -- also saying you can  hunt anything into that territory, which nobody will  touch you; nobody will bother you.  But in that case,  after there was registered and everything was going  onto that territory.  This is what they told us at  that time.  And D.I.A. was witness at that time too,  because they call it Indian agent.  And it been  registered, but after it was registered, everything  was going on.  Fish and Wildlife, they going into that  territory themselves, and they charged people into  the -- to that territory.  They never follow up on  those promise that they made at that time.  And there's a problem there now, today.  They have  computers, as I touched this before.  What they're  saying is be better for us, which it's not so.  What 5286  J. Morrison (for plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Rush  1 they told us is not true, because when -- I know it's  2 not true.  What they're doing is opposite than what we  3 are doing before.  They use computers today.  And the  4 way I see it myself -- because I was the hunter and  5 I'm a trapper, and I know what should be done into  6 that territory.  Then when I see this, they use this  7 computer and they call it management unit, and they  8 have the numbers of each registered trapline, and you  9 can see it on the map there, government map.  It's the  10 computer numbers on that.  And when you caught the  11 animals, you must attach with your shipment, and most  12 of those time in some other areas, that's what we are  13 concerned in that.  I know it's not true.  When you do  14 punch that computer -- and some of those people don't  15 know where this come from, but they use the numbers of  16 your territory, and they have done on mine.  That's  17 why I know.  What you caught yourself and you ship it,  18 then you know you have record on that when it returns.  19 Then you know what exactly the amount you caught on  20 that.  You count it yourselves.  But at the end of the  21 season, you'll find out maybe 100 more on top of your  22 number, which has come from different area.  23 Q   Have you -- are you still a registered trapline holder  24 of that territory at Luu ska'yans't?  25 A   It's transferred to Elsie Morrison, the legal owner  2 6 now.  27 Q   Elsie Morrison, that's Waiget?  28 A  Waiget.  29 Q   Were you required by the Fish and Wildlife Department  30 to file returns every two years?  31 A   They do.  If you don't, you're going to lose the  32 territory.  That's what they're saying.  33 Q   And is -- is that -- is that requirement, is that  34 consistent with the laws of the -- or practices of you  35 and people you know, Gitksan chiefs, in respect of  36 their hunting and trapping on the territory?  37 A   Not so.  38 Q   Pardon me?  39 A   Not so.  See, this is -- I'm just referring for what  40 happened there before.  See, this is what they want us  41 to do, but it's not so before.  This is where the  42 problems arise today, how to handle those things.  But  43 before it's all right.  There's no problems there.  44 That's why if the Indian people has the rights, all  45 those other things, what they're doing in there --  46 Q   Now, you described management, the ways that you  47 managed the territories that you were on before, 5287  J. Morrison (for plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Rush  1  2  A  3  Q  4  5  A  6  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  THE  COURT  17  18  MR.  RUSH:  19  20  THE  COURT  21  MR.  RUSH:  22  23  THE  COURT  24  MR.  RUSH:  25  THE  COURT  26  MR.  RUSH:  27  THE  COURT  28  MR.  RUSH:  29  THE  COURT  30  31  32  33  34  MR.  RUSH:  35  THE  COURT  36  MR.  RUSH:  37  THE  COURT  38  39  MR.  RUSH:  40  Q  41  42  A  43  Q  44  45  A  46  Q  47  A  yesterday?  Yes.  Are those the ways that you consider to be the -- is  that way a way that is a preferred way other than --  That's when they started before.  The person that  replaced the other chiefs, that's at least gone on for  thousands of years.  This is how to manage those  animals in there, where they call the hunting ground,  and we still follow it as law today.  They're no  different than thousands of years ago, because the  fish has been set for us how to do those things by the  creator, not by the people there, but also the ones  that hunting in that hunting ground, like -- for  instance, like in Txaaxwok's territory I'm referring  now.  :  I take it this trapline was in Waiget's northern  territory, was it?  No.  It was in the southern, Luu ska'yans't, which is  the southern.  :  Oh, I'm sorry.  I've got --  If you look at Map B, my lord, it's the one about  eight miles north of Kispiox.  :  North of Kispiox.  Kisgagas.  :  Oh, I'm sorry.  Yes.  Does your lordship have it?  :  Yes.  That's the way it is described in the affidavit.  :  Yes.  I was reading --just trying to pick up from  the description I had, the one in the middle of  Waiget's northern territory, Luu Skeexwit.  It's  close, but it's not the same thing.  I have it now.  Thank you.  This is the territory that's described on page 9.  :  Yes.  Paragraph eight.  :  I've located it.  I see it's in the southern  territory.  Thank you.  Mr. Morrison, do you -- do you use meat from the  territories where you hunt?  Yes.  From Waiget's territory at Luu ska'yans't and now  Txaaxwok's territory, Meziaden?  Yes.  What kind of meat do you eat?  Moose meat. 5288  J. Morrison (for plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Rush  1  Q  2  A  3  Q  4  A  5  Q  6  A  7  8  Q  9  10  A  11  Q  12  13  A  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  Q  26  27  A  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  Q  37  38  39  A  40  Q  41  A  42  MR. RUSH  43  44  the spel:  45  MR. RUSH  46  Q  47  Moose meat?  Any other kind?  Well, all kinds of animals, beaver meat.  Do you alternate your use of these meats?  Yes.  And do you also eat fish, dried fish and fresh fish?  Dried fish, fresh fish, what's on the river and your  hunting ground.  Again, do you alternate the use or eating of these  fish over your -- over a week or over a month?  Yes.  I take it you don't eat moose meat everyday, or you  don't eat fish everyday?  No.  This is while these animals are on the territory.  There's different size of animals that you taking each  day or maybe second day.  See, first thing is moose.  It will last you for a long time, and you use it for  bait.  You use it for your team as you pack dogs and  also use it for other things.  And besides that, you  have porcupine, next size to the moose, and another  beaver, all different size of animals which you've  been taking.  And the time -- and the next time is the  grouse, blue grouse.  That's the ones that up in the  mountain.  They call it blue grouse.  Our word is Max  meek, that we call it.  These are all types of animals and birds that you  regularly eat?  Yes.  And the next one is the grouse.  That's smaller  than -- than blue grouse.  It's willow grouse.  And  also the next one is spruce hen.  They call it Looba  tse'el.  That's next smaller to the -- to the willow  grouse.  So these all things that you been taking, and  each time when you need fresh meal, you take one of  those  and shot one of them or wherever, however you  catch them.  This is one of those things that people  taking out of the territory.  I'm just going to ask you to pause there.  I'm going  to ask for two spellings.  The blue grouse you -- what  did you say the Gitksan name for that was?  Max meek.  Max meek?  Or Lidsxw.  Okay.  Just get those two.  We'll ask Miss Howard to  help us with that.  E1R:  Max meek is M-a-x-space-m-e-e-k.  Yes.  And then there was another word for blue grouse.  What was the other word for blue grouse, Mr. Morrison? 5289  J. Morrison (for plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Rush  1 A   Lidsxw.  2 THE SPELLER:  L-i — L-i-d-s-x-w.  3 MR. RUSH:  4 Q   Thank you.  And, finally, the -- the spruce hen?  5 A   Looba tse'el.  6 THE SPELLER:  L-o-o-b-a-t-s-e-apostrophe —  7 THE COURT:  I'm sorry, t-s.  8 THE SPELLER:  t-s-e-apostrophe-e-1.  9 THE COURT:  All right.  Shall we adjourn now, Mr. Rush?  I'm  10 meeting a group of young citizens here as soon as you  11 gentlemen -- ladies and gentlemen will be good enough  12 to leave.  13 THE REGISTRAR:  Order in court.  Court is adjourned.  14  15 (PROCEEDINGS ADJOURNED)  16  17 I hereby certify the foregoing to be  18 a true and accurate transcript of the  19 proceedings transcribed to the best  20 of my skill and ability.  21  22  23  24 Kathie Tanaka, Official Reporter  25 UNITED REPORTING SERVICE LTD.  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47 5290  J. Morrison (For Plaintiffs)  In Chief by Mr. Rush  1  2  3  THE COURT  4  MR. RUSH:  5  Q  6  7  8  A  9  Q  10  11  A  12  Q  13  14  A  15  Q  16  17  A  18  Q  19  20  21  A  22  Q  23  24  A  25  Q  26  27  A  28  Q  29  A  30  Q  31  A  32  Q  33  34  A  35  Q  36  A  37  Q  38  39  A  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  Q  (Proceedings resumed at 2 o'clock p.m.)  :  Mr. Rush?  Now, Mr. Morrison, this morning you described a  meeting where it was recommended that you would take  the name of Txaaxwok, do you recall that?  Yes.  Have you attended similar meetings in respect to other  Gitksan chiefs?  Yes, I do.  And what you have described, is that common among  Gitksan chiefs?  Yes.  And you also described the feast where you took the  name of Txaaxwok?  Yes.  And what you described where you took that name, have  you been at similar feasts where names have been  passed on in the same way?  Yes.  It's common among Gitksan chiefs for there to have  occurred the same things that occurred at your feast?  Yes.  I want to ask you, Mr. Morrison, do you reside in  Hazelton or in Gitanmaax?  Yes.  Are you a member of the Gitanmaax Band?  Yes.  Are you  a councillor at Gitanmaax?  Yes.  Can you recall when it was you first became a  councillor at Gitanmaax?  Around 1974.  Have you ever been a chief councillor?  No.  Can you say what it is that the band council at  Gitanmaax does?  Well, first thing is the band council in the reserve,  has looking after anything in the reserve, like water  lines and housing, and also road and drainage, that's  what they looking after in the reserve.  And also  education, also other things, welfare, social worker,  what they been looking after that.  And the outside,  it's what the other territory which is the other group  looking after that.  The other group meaning? 5291  J. Morrison (For Plaintiffs)  In Chief by Mr. Rush  1  A  2  Q  3  4  A  5  6  7  8  9  Q  10  11  12  A  13  14  15  16  17  Q  18  19  A  20  Q  21  22  23  24  A  25  Q  26  27  28  A  29  Q  30  A  31  THE COURT  32  A  33  MR. RUSH:  34  A  35  Q  36  37  38  A  39  Q  40  41  A  42  Q  43  A  44  45  46  47  Q  Hereditary system, which is hereditary chiefs.  What role does -- do the hereditary chiefs play a role  in the band council?  Yes, they have, it's, it's hand in hand with the  council, band council, means they are working together  with them.  They are the foundation of each village,  because they are the ones that have the knowledge of  the hereditary lands outside the reserve.  Okay.  Does the council, does the band council make  any decisions regarding the hereditary lands of the  Gitksan chiefs without their approval?  Yes, they do, in some ways, that the hereditary chiefs  has the declaration before they pass anything and they  have to sign it as the hereditary chief, that's why I  am calling them as foundation, they don't make any  decisions without the hereditary chiefs.  Does the band council make any decisions about the  feast system?  No.  Now, as a band councillor at Gitanmaax, Mr. Morrison,  have you agreed to give up any of your aboriginal  rights of ownership or jurisdiction to your territory  or the territory of your father?  No.  Now, I want you to look, if you will for a moment, at  the last tab, tab 6.  It's a photograph of a blanket,  do you recognize that photograph?  Yes.  What's that a photograph of?  That's Waiget's blanket.  :  I am sorry?  Waiget.  W-a-i-g-e-t, my lord?  Of the house of Waiget.  Can you tell by looking at this blanket, is that a  blanket that was recently made or is that an old  blanket?  It's an old one here.  I think you told us that Waiget's crest was the  Wai'ex?  Wai'ex.  Now, is the Wai'ex, is that shown on this blanket?  Yes, that's something that, it's like a pen only  thicker than a pen.  It's a round, and that's what  they found at that time when they travel, way, many  years back in the beginning.  How far back from your knowledge? 5292  J. Morrison (For Plaintiffs)  In Chief by Mr. Rush  1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  A  MR.  MR.  THE  MR.  A  Q  A  Q  A  A  THE COURT:  A  THE COURT:  A  RUSH:  Q  A  Q  A  RUSH:  Well, I would say, I don't know what, how many years  back, but I would say a thousand, when the beginning  of these Indian people, when the first at this  blanket, way before that.  And what is this small thing that you are referring  to?  Well, it's just like a bone, only smoother, a round,  and that's they call it Wai'ex.  They found it in that  place, not particularly on that place where Waiget's  territory is, but that's why they call it Wai'ex,  found.  That's why you see this little mark here.  Okay.  And what indicates the Wai'ex on the blanket?  It's this one here.  You can tell.  You are pointing to the middle blanket or the middle  panel at the top, which --  It's right here.  It's just like this, and it's round  and thicker and that's why, like that.  Mr. Morrison is describing it being like a pen, which  is round and somewhat thicker than a pen.  Just like that.  It's different size.  It's a round  thing.  :  It's vertical and it runs the height of the centre  panel?  Yes.  :  Thank you.  blanket, is  The blanket  And it's  it?  is coloured but the other one  a darker colour from the  is different  colour but also that's the crest of Waiget.  And that crest of Waiget, what does that indicate?  That means that it represents the lands, Waiget's  lands.  Because that's his crest.  And does that refer to Waiget's history?  Yes, refer to the history, they call it Adaawk.  Can that be marked as an exhibit, please.  REGISTRAR:  Exhibit 382, my lord.  (EXHIBIT 382:  PHOTOGRAPH FROM TAB 6)  RUSH:  Thank you.  Q   Now, Mr. Morrison, I want to ask you about -- you  indicated, I think yesterday in your evidence, that  you had had two meetings with Elsie Morrison, who is  the present holder of Waiget and Pete Muldoe,  concerning your information about the territory; is  that right?  A   Yes. 5293  J. Morrison (For Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Mackenzie  1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  THE  THE  MR.  THE  MR.  THE  MR.  MR.  THE  MR.  THE  And I wanted to ask you if other similar meetings are  planned?  Yes, there are, in the future, with going to Wiiseeks,  the house of Waiget together.  And what will you do in your meetings with Wiiseeks?  They asked me to go with him and share the information  on that land with him.  And I think you said he is a younger man?  Younger man.  In the house of Waiget.  We are talking about the territory of Waiget, are  we?  Yes, yes.  Thank you.  The three of them are working together?  Elsie Morrison, Pete Muldoe and --  And Wiiseeks.  That's Ralph Michell?  Yes.  And is the -- are these -- will you also be meeting  again with Elsie Morrison and Pete Muldoe and with  Ralph Michell together?  Yes, they want to meet again before they go out and  they want to go out with me so we can share  information on that land.  Because it's already stated  in the feast that they have to see that, where the  boundary is.  If you will just give me a moment,  Yes.  Those are my questions.  Thank you.  Thank you, Mr. Rush.  Mr. Morrison, would you answer Mr.  questions, please.  MACKENZIE:  My lord, I have a green book of documents that  will be handing up to your lordship.  I am also  handing up a smaller green binder with photographs.  COURT:  Thank you.   I see it snowed since I left there.  ]  suppose it does that every year.  MACKENZIE:  I don't want to make any comments about snow,  lord.  My learned senior has learned about that.  COURT:  That's Mr. Goldie's department.  A  Q  A  Q  A  COURT  A  COURT  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  RUSH:  COURT  RUSH:  COURT  RUSH:  please.  Mackenzie's  my  CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR. MACKENZIE:  MR. MACKENZIE:  Q   Now, Mr. Morrison, you testified that you are a  Kitwancool, Wolf Clan member; is that right?  A   Yes.  Q   And you are the head chief of the Kitwancool House of 5294  J. Morrison (For Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Mackenzie  1 Tsim daak; is that correct?  2 A   Yes.  3 Q   Referring to paragraph 51 of the statement of claim in  4 this action, Mr. Morrison, I am going to put that  5 trial record, page ten, before you.  And I would ask  6 you to refer to paragraph 51.  Is your house listed in  7 that list?  It continues over on page 11.  8 MR. MACKENZIE:  My lord, paragraph 51 of the statement of claim  9 lists the Kitwancool chiefs who are excepted from the  10 Gitksan chiefs who are plaintiffs in the litigation.  11 Q   Now, Mr. Morrison, you are reading paragraph 51, may I  12 suggest to you that your name, Txaaxwok, does not  13 appear in paragraph 51.  You took the name Txaaxwok in  14 January, 1983, didn't you?  15 A   '84.  16 Q   Are you certain it was 1984?  17 A   '84.  18 MR. MACKENZIE:  Madam registrar, could you put the green binder  19 in front of Mr. Morrison.  20 THE REGISTRAR:  Documents?  21 MR. MACKENZIE:  Yes.  At tab 5.  22 And, my lord, if you go five pages into that  23 document, you will find some notes dated January 17,  24 1983.  25 THE COURT:  What's the opening entry?  26 MR. MACKENZIE:  The opening entry is Eddie Russell feast,  27 January 17, 1983.  2 8 THE COURT:  What page number?  29 MR. MACKENZIE:  It's, my lord, it's 106, page 106.  Do you have  30 that my lord?  31 THE COURT:  No.  I am sorry, there is two pages on each  32 photocopy.  I have it, thank you.  33 MR. MACKENZIE:  34 Q   Now, Mr. Morrison, these are notes made by Mr. Neil  35 Sterritt, and they are the -- taken from the  36 plaintiffs' document number 3876, and at page 106, at  37 tab 5, Mr. Sterritt says:  "Eddie Russell died January  38 11, 1983 in Vancouver."  Is that correct?  39 A   Yes.  40 Q   And he was buried January 17, 1983 in Glen Vowel1; is  41 that correct?  42 A   Yes.  43 Q   And then he says, "James Morrison takes the name  44 Txaaxwok."  Now, did you take the name Txaaxwok, in  45 January of 1983?  46 A   I believe in my record it's '84.  47 Q   How long after Eddie Russell's death did you take the 5295  J. Morrison (For Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Mackenzie  1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  name Txaaxwok?  A   Right in the same time.  Q   So, I take it you would agree with me that it must  have been 1983?  A   No.  Q   Do you recall that Mr. Neil Sterritt was present at  the feast where you took the name Txaaxwok?  A   I believe so.  I didn't see that.  Q   Well, let me refer further to this document at tab 5,  and at page 103 -- I beg your pardon.  My lord, I have  following page 106, page 102 and 103 and on page --  does your lordship have that.  THE COURT:  I have 103.  MR. MACKENZIE:  Just following 106, my lord.  THE COURT:  Yes.  MR. MACKENZIE:  Q   At that page, there is an indication that you  contributed $2,000 at the feast; is that correct?  A   Yes.  Q   Then continuing on to page --  COURT:  I am sorry, $2,000?  I don't see that on page 103.  MACKENZIE:  Sorry, my lord, following page 106 we were  referring to before.  My lord, it's page 108.  I am  sorry.  COURT:  Yes, I have that.  $2,000.  Yes.  MACKENZIE:  I misread that figure.  My lord, I won't refer  to that any further.  Q   Mr. Morrison has indicated that the date, the entry  for the date of Eddie Russell's birth and death or  death and burial are correct, and he says that he took  the name at that date, and he agrees that the  contribution shown from him on page 108 is correct.  So, my lord, I would enter that as an exhibit.  THE COURT:  Mr. Rush?  MR. RUSH:  I don't think so, my lord.  There is no basis.  He  didn't write it, he didn't script it, he didn't -- I  don't know that he knows anything about it.  So some  of these things, he agrees with what's in there.  I  can't see any basis for admitting it.  THE COURT:  I don't think what the witness has admitted anything  up to now that permits it to be marked, Mr. Mackenzie.  The witness has given in evidence some of these things  that happened so marking the document wouldn't add to  what he said anyway.  And all that can be admitted is  what he has admitted to, so I think the evidence  should stand.  MR. MACKENZIE:  Thank you, my lord.  THE  MR.  THE  MR. 5296  J. Morrison (For Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Mackenzie  1 Q   So, at any rate, Mr. Morrison, you will agree with me  2 that you took the name Txaaxwok before the -- before  3 October, 1984; is that correct?  4 A  Well, in that time, I have my record, as I say, and I  5 have to go on my own record.  I don't write these  6 things and I don't know who wrote this.  7 Q   I am asking you now, you agree that you took the name  8 Txaaxwok before October of 1984 when this litigation  9 was started?  10 A   October?  11 Q   Yes.  12 A   No.  13 Q   You took the name Txaaxwok in January of 1984,  14 according to your evidence?  15 A   Yes.  16 Q   So that was before the litigation commenced?  17 A   Yes.  18 MR. RUSH:  Excuse me, he may not know that the litigation  19 commenced in October of 1984.  Maybe just separate  20 that.  21 MR. MACKENZIE:  22 Q   Fine.  This litigation commenced in October of 1984.  23 THE COURT:  I don't know if this is important, but do you say,  24 Mr. Mackenzie, it says he took the name in January of  25 1984?  26 MR. MACKENZIE:  Yes, my lord.  27 THE COURT:  Is that right?  28 A   Yes.  2 9 THE COURT:  Thank you.  I didn't note the month.  30 MR. MACKENZIE:  One of the plaintiffs' document seems to  31 indicate that he took the name in January of 1983, but  32 that's not taking us anywhere just now, my lord.  33 Q   You are not a plaintiff in this litigation, are you,  34 Mr. Morrison?  35 A   No.  36 Q   You are a Gitksan hereditary chief, aren't you?  37 A   Yes, I am a Kitwancool.  38 Q   You are a Kitwancool hereditary chief?  39 A   Yes.  40 Q   And the Kitwancool hereditary chiefs are not  41 plaintiffs in this action?  42 A   No.  43 Q   Are there any other Kitwancool hereditary chiefs whose  44 names do not appear in the statement of claim?  45 A  What do you mean in the claim?  46 Q   In the statement of claim, paragraph 51 that you were  47 just looking at.  Perhaps you could, rather than 5297  J. Morrison (For Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Mackenzie  1 listing them out, you could just tell me --  2 MR. RUSH:  My lord, I suggest that they be read to him.  There  3 are various spellings, unfortunately, of Gitksan words  4 and maybe he will recognize the names when read rather  5 than said.  6 MR. MACKENZIE:  I will hand the trial record to Mrs. Howard and  7 ask if she would mind reading out paragraph 51.  And,  8 my lord, paragraph 50 in the statement of claim lists  9 "...the plaintiffs in the preceding paragraphs are the  10 hereditary chiefs of the Gitksan, and are descendants  11 of the hereditary chiefs, except the Kitwancool chiefs  12 (hereinafter collectively referred to as the 'Gitksan  13 chiefs')."  And then paragraph 51 says, "In these  14 pleadings 'Kitwancool chiefs' refers to the following  15 chiefs."  And there follows a list.  16 Mrs. Howard, would you please read the names of the  17 chiefs to Mr. Morrison, and --  18 MR. MACKENZIE:  Excuse me.  Mr. Roy, Mr. Reporter can get the  19 spellings from the trial record, paragraph 51.  If you  20 could read each one, say what the first one is, and  21 say it and then the second one so Mr. Roy will get it.  22 THE TRANSLATOR:  I am just telling him these are the Indian  23 names of the chiefs.  24 MR. MACKENZIE:  I just want you to read the chiefs' names,  25 please.  26 THE TRANSLATOR: Wixa, also known as Morris Williams; Malii,  27 Gordon Johnson; Haits'Imsxw, David Wesley; Wilitsxw,  28 John Robinson; Gwashl Am, Abel Campbell; Niislaganoos,  29 Vernon Williams; Xamlaxyeltxw, Solomon Marsden;  30 Wutaxhayetsxw, Barney Good;  Gunuu, Godfrey Good;  31 Tooxensxw, Sarah Benson; Luuxoon, Guy Morgan; and  32 Yaxyak, Adolphus Morgan.  33 MR. MACKENZIE:  34 Q   So the question is, are there other Kitwancool chiefs,  35 high chiefs, not included in that list?  36 A   Yes.  Who made this book?  37 Q   That's the -- you are looking at the statement of  38 claim, which sets out the plaintiffs' position in the  39 litigation.  40 THE COURT:  Well, Mr. Morrison is asking who made it, and the  41 answer is either Mr. Grant or Mr. Rush or somebody  42 working for them.  43 MR. MACKENZIE:  44 Q   Now, you have spoken about the Kitwancool chiefs and  45 their position with respect to this litigation, and  46 you agree that the Kitwancool people are considered  47 Gitksan? 529?  J. Morrison (For Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Mackenzie  1 A  Well, as I stated before, the Gitksan people.  2 Q   And the Kitwancool chiefs have filed a comprehensive  3 claim with the federal government, haven't they?  Do  4 you know what that means?  I am sorry, the Kitwancool  5 chiefs have filed a claim with the federal government,  6 are you aware of that?  7 A   I don't know that they was doing it.  I wasn't  8 involved in that.  9 Q   I am instructed that that claim was filed in 1977, you  10 were a Kitwancool Wolf Clan sub-chief in that year,  11 were you not?  12 A   Yes.  13 Q   And the Kitwancool chiefs claim territory from a point  14 about nine miles north of Gitwangak, 150 miles north  15 past Meziadin Lake, don't they?  16 A   Yes, right by Luu Saa Ameldit.  17 Q   That's up near Bowser Lake, isn't it?  18 A   No.  19 Q   Just south of Bowser Lake, isn't it?  20 A   Yes.  21 Q   Refer to the map at tab 20 of the green volume --  22 THE COURT:  I am sorry, are we going to get a spelling for that  23 word?  24 THE TRANSLATOR:  L-u-u, s-a-a, a-m-e-1-d-i-t.  25 MR. MACKENZIE:  26 Q   I am showing you a map at tab 20 of the green binder.  27 Now, can you confirm that that's the territory claimed  28 by the Kitwancool chiefs?  29 A   Yes, that's -- this is our boundary here.  30 Q   Pointing to the map and going down the boundary.  31 A   That's the boundary, Luu Saa Ameldit, that's where the  32 boundary is not to the lake.  33 Q   You are referring to the river right at the north  34 boundary?  35 A   Skii gim laxha.  36 Q   We will get that name.  Right at the north boundary of  37 the claimed area on this map at tab 20.  Now there is  38 a spelling there.  39 THE TRANSLATOR: S-k-i-i, g-i-m, 1-a-x-h-a.  40 MR. MACKENZIE:  My lord, I would submit that map as the next  41 exhibit.  42 THE COURT:  Yes.  43 THE REGISTRAR:  Exhibit 383, my lord.  44 MR. RUSH:  The witness pointed to what appears to be a lake  45 under which there is the name Gis sa am maldid.  46  47 (EXHIBIT 383: MAP OF KITWANCOOL TERRITORIES) 5299  J. Morrison (For Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Mackenzie  1 MR. MACKENZIE:  2 Q   There is a lake just north of the river that you just  3 talked about called Bowser Lake; is that correct?  4 A   Yes, this is Bowser Lake but this is Gis sa am maldid,  5 that's our boundary there.  6 Q   And going down south, there is a lake called Meziadin  7 Lake; is that correct?  8 A   Yes.  9 Q   And that's where your territory is; is that right?  10 A   Yes.  11 Q   And presently there is a highway going from Gitwangak  12 to Meziadin Lake?  13 A   Yes.  14 Q   That's Highway 37, is it?  15 A   Yes.  16 Q   And a campsite --  17 MR. RUSH:  What's the point of or is there any reason for this?  18 There might have been some relevance to a claim made  19 in and registered in some book monograph called  20 Histories, Territories and Laws of the Kitwancool.  21 But is there some reason or relevance of a place or of  22 a highway in this area, campsite in this area?  23 THE COURT:  Mr. Mackenzie?  24 MR. MACKENZIE:  Well, my lord, Mr. Morrison did give evidence  25 about the management of his territory at Meziadin Lake  26 and your lordship permitted evidence on that subject  27 over my objection.  And, in my submission, it's  28 relevant how Mr. Morrison gets to his territory, he  29 goes on his territory, of course has been admitted and  30 in my submission, it's also relevant what other  31 government bodies and non-Gitksan people are doing on  32 Mr. Morrison's territory at Meziadin Lake about which  33 evidence has been given here.  34 MR. RUSH:  My question would be, why is that?  Why is it  35 relevant what other bodies are doing on Mr. Morrison's  36 territory?  What might be relevant is, is there some  37 reason to suggest that Mr. Morrison wasn't accurate  38 about the way he described the management practices  39 that he engaged in.  Is there some suggestion in the  40 cross-examination that he didn't do what he said that  41 he did or he did it in another way?  But the fact that  42 there is the presence of a highway in that area, I  43 don't think in the slightest bit detracts from that  44 type of evidence.  And I suggest that a proper scope  45 for cross-examination would be in the area of  46 challenging his management practices and I don't think  47 in the slightest that the presence of a highway does 5300  J. Morrison (For Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Mackenzie  1 that.  2 MR. MACKENZIE:  My lord, may I make a response to that?  3 THE COURT:  Yes.  4 MR. MACKENZIE:  My lord, I am concerned in my cross-examination  5 about the -- one of the things I am concerned about is  6 the question of access to these territories.  And it's  7 going to be my submission that the Gitksan people  8 today very rarely leave the highways and despite all  9 the evidence my friend has called about intensive use  10 and harvesting of these territories, the fact of  11 highway access in my submission is highly relevant and  12 important in this whole --  13 THE COURT:  Well, it would certainly be relevant to the lands  14 within the claimed area.  I am not sure it's relevant  15 to lands outside the claimed area.  16 MR. MACKENZIE:  I am not speaking about the lands, I am talking  17 about Mr. Morrison's management techniques and the way  18 he accesses his territory.  My friend called evidence  19 on that subject to show by analogy what other chiefs  20 do in the land claims area and in my submission I  21 think I should be able to do the same.  22 THE COURT:  All right.  I let it in in chief, on the grounds  23 that were stated by Mr. Rush, which seem to me to  24 establish a basis for relevance.  It may be that the  25 kind of management that he engages in might reflect in  26 some obscure or oblique way the management of other  27 territories.  I probably shouldn't have gotten into  28 this but we are into it and I think I will allow you  29 to proceed, confining yourself to the question of the  30 management of the territory.  31 MR. MACKENZIE:  Thank you, my lord.  32 Q   Speaking about that territory at Meziadin Lake, that's  33 about 100 miles north of Kitwanga, isn't it, Mr.  34 Morrison?  35 A  About 80 miles.  36 Q   80 miles north of Kitwanga?  37 A   Yes.  38 Q   And, Mr. John Robinson was the holder of the  39 registered trapline in that area before you?  40 A   Yes.  41 Q   And I suggest to you that Mr. Robinson is still the  42 registered owner of that trapline, what's your  43 response to that?  I am sorry, do you agree with that  44 statement?  45 A   No, it's been transferred to me at that time, when I  46 was taking the name over.  And we shared, as I stated  47 on there before, we shared with each other, it's not 5301  J. Morrison (For Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Mackenzie  1  2  3  4  Q  5  6  A  7  Q  8  9  A  10  Q  11  A  12  Q  13  A  14  Q  15  16  A  17  Q  18  A  19  Q  20  21  22  A  23  MR. RUSH:  24  THE COURT  25  MR. RUSH:  26  27  MR. macke:  28  Q  29  30  A  31  Q  32  33  A  34  Q  35  A  36  Q  37  A  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  Q  47  him that -- all of that we use that territory.  We  shared with him, as I stated before, it's not just  him.  I understand.  And you say that the trapline was  transferred to you; is that correct?  Yes.  Well, at the time of that transfer you went into the  conservation officer's office in Hazelton?  Yes.  And that was Mr. Greg Hoyer?  Yes.  And you completed -- you signed a form?  Yes.  And where you transferred your trapline at Shedin  Creek to Elsie Morrison?  That's near --  Near Shedin Creek; is that correct?  Yes.  And, John Robinson signed a form which transferred or  he was going to transfer his trapline to you; is that  correct?  Yes.  Well, there are two questions there.  :  Well, he answered each one in part though.  The question was, John Robinson signed a form when he  he transferred or was to transfer.  JZIE:  You understood that John Robinson signed a form for  the transfer of the trapline to you; is that correct?  Yes.  And you use the computer number for the Meziadin  trapline when you sell your furs?  Not so now.  Where do you sell the furs?  Any buyers.  Which number do you use?  We don't use any number.  I stated before, these are  confusing to the people to use these computer numbers.  As you know, if you are a trapper you should know what  they come off the animals, as I stated before many  times they used this computer number all over the  place and when they -- when the time is to count how  many animals off the land and it's not so, you find  that some other places where they used the computer  numbers, that's the reason we don't use those numbers.  Now, you are aware that the Nisga'a people claim  Meziadin Lake too, don't you? 5302  J. Morrison (For Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Mackenzie  1 A   Not that I know of.  2 Q   You are not aware of that?  3 A   No.  4 Q   Were you at a meeting with the Nisga'a chiefs in  5 Gitwangak in May of 1983?  6 A   No.  7 Q   At that meeting the Gitksan chiefs spoke about their  8 territories, were you at that meeting?  9 A   No.  10 Q   And I am instructed that the Kitwancool chiefs  11 attended that May, 1983 meeting but you don't recall  12 ever being at that meeting?  13 A   No.  14 Q   Were you ever at a meeting of the Gitksan chiefs  15 dealing with the boundaries with the Nisga'a chiefs?  16 A   No.  17 Q   Fine.  So you personally, you don't claim any  18 territory within the land claims area in this  19 litigation, do you?  2 0 A   No.  21 Q   And you personally are not represented by any of the  22 Gitksan chiefs who are plaintiffs in this litigation,  23 are you?  24 A   No.  25 Q   Now you refer to seven territories in your affidavit,  26 I take it from your answer that you don't claim  27 ownership or jurisdiction over any of those seven  28 territories?  2 9 A   No.  30 Q   And you also are not, following your answers, you are  31 not also a member of a house which claims ownership or  32 jurisdiction over any of the seven territories in your  33 affidavit?  34 A   None of those territories or the others.  35 Q   I am referring to the affidavit, which is marked as  36 Exhibit 376 in this -- these proceedings.  37 Now your brother is Sam Morrison?  38 A   Yes.  39 Q   And as you say he was also a member of the Kitwancool  40 Wolf Clan?  41 A   Yes.  42 Q   And he had a registered trapline, didn't he?  43 A   Yes.  44 Q   It was up in the north, wasn't it, at Chipmunk Creek?  45 A   Yes.  46 Q   He is now retired, isn't he?  47 A  Well, not -- well, he is crippled so -- he has to stay 5303  J. Morrison (For Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Mackenzie  1 home once in a while.  2 Q   I am sorry, I didn't hear you.  3 A   He is an older person, he is blind, and he stays at  4 home all the time.  5 Q   Now your father Simon passed away in 1974, correct?  6 A   Yes.  7 Q   And you continued to hold -- and at that time you held  8 a registered trapline on that territory at Luu  9 Ska'yans't, didn't you?  10 A   Yes.  11 Q   And after your father's death you continued to hold  12 that registered trapline, until when?  13 A   Until Elsie took over.  The reason why for that, you  14 are referring to the north of Sam Morrison, he is the  15 caretaker at that time because the registered trapline  16 is only allowed one registered.  As I stated before,  17 the DIA and the fish and wildlife they force people to  18 register the trapline.  This is why they are holding  19 that.  Sam Morrison and also the other people was on  20 that today, just the holder of that land until such  21 date that it be transferred back to them.  That's the  22 other territory, not him or not me.  As I stated  23 before to my affidavit, I was just the holder until --  24 because they force us to register trapline.  This is  25 why I was holding at that time until Elsie Morrison  26 took over.  27 Q   Are there any other Kitwancool, Wolf Clan chiefs  28 trapping on lands in the claimed area?  29 A   In someplaces.  30 Q   Are there other Kitwancool Wolf Clan members who live  31 in Hazelton?  32 A   Yes.  33 Q   Now, you say that you took the name Txaaxwok in  34 January of 1984, correct?  35 A   Yes.  36 Q   And before that, Eddie Russell held the name, didn't  37 he?  38 A   Yes.  39 Q   He lived in Glen Vowell?  40 A   Yes.  41 Q   And at that time Gordon Robinson also held the name in  42 Kitwancool, didn't he?  43 A   There can't be two name at one time.  44 Q   I am suggesting to you that two people held the name  45 of Txaaxwok before Eddie Russell died; is that  46 correct?  47 A  Alfred Russell has that name before, not Eddie. 5304  J. Morrison (For Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Mackenzie  1 Q   Well Alfred was Eddie Robinson's uncle?  2 A   Not Eddie Robinson, Gordon.  3 Q   What I am referring to is, when Eddie Russell had the  4 name Txaaxwok, there was someone else in Kitwancool  5 who also had the name, didn't they?  6 A   Not that I know of.  You can't hold two people in one  7 house, only allowed one.  8 Q   I refer to the document in the binder at tab 4, and  9 page 99 of that document.  Now this document is from  10 plaintiffs' document 3843, they are more of Neil  11 Sterritt's notebooks, and the entry seems to start on  12 page 93 with Able Campbell, A-b-l-e, Campbell, stone  13 feast on November 6, 1982.  Did you know Able  14 Campbell?  15 A   I know him.  16 Q   And there was a stone feast for Able Campbell on  17 November 6th, 1982?  18 A   I don't know, I don't know anything about this.  19 Q   At page 99 -- does your lordship have that reference?  2 0    THE COURT:  Yes.  21 MR. MACKENZIE:  22 Q   Page 99, Mr. Sterritt writes that Gordon Robinson  23 spoke on this occasion, as I understand these notes,  24 and he says, these are the notes:  "Gordon Robinson  25 takes Txaaxwok, which is held by Eddie Russell in Glen  2 6 Vowell.  There will be two Txaaxwoks until Eddie  27 dies."  You disagree with that?  2 8 A   I don't know anything about that.  If I would know I  29 would know today and I got the right to know those  30 things before they happen.  31 Q   You say that's wrong?  32 A   That's wrong.  33 Q   "Whoever takes Txaaxwok's name when Eddie dies has to  34 go to the feast in Kispiox and pay to bring the name  35 back to Kitwancool."  You say that's wrong?  36 A  Well, I say I don't know anything about this and I  37 don't —  38 Q   "Then there will be only one Txaaxwok 'it will be all  39 cleaned up.'"  4 0 You don't know anything about that?  41 A  As I say, I don't know what's gone on here.  If I  42 would know anything at that time, because I am a  43 member of that clan, and I should know at that time  44 and I should know what's happened there.  45 Q   Okay.  Now, I want to ask you again about the events  46 after Eddie Russell passed away.  Is it true that the  47 possible successors to the name Txaaxwok were you and 5305  J. Morrison (For Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Mackenzie  1 your brother Sam Morrison?  2 A Yes, Sam is already holding the name.  3 Q He has a chief's name?  4 A Yes.  He already holding the name, as I stated on this  5 witness, Ax K'oo'pil.  6 MR. MACKENZIE:  Did you get that reference?  7 THE COURT:  No, I didn't.  8 THE TRANSLATOR:  It's 939.  9 MR. MACKENZIE:  10 Q Was that Sam's name that you just mentioned?  11 A Yes.  12 Q Can you agree with me that Sam was another possible  13 successor to the name Txaaxwok?  14 A On to that -- which one are you talking about?  15 Q After Eddie died, Eddie Russell died, you could take  16 the name Txaaxwok, correct?  17 A Yes.  18 Q Sam could take the name Txaaxwok, correct?  19 A Yes.  2 0 Q And Gordon Robinson could take the name?  21 A Well, depending.  I stated at that meeting, they are  22 the ones that decided, not just individual.  You have  23 to have meetings with -- you can't just force it to  2 4 anybody.  25 Q I am just wondering, who were the choices available,  26 and I say John and Gordon Robinson were also among  27 that group of people?  28 A Yes.  29 Q And John Robinson wanted to take the name, didn't he?  30 A Didn't say.  31 Q He said he was taking the name back to Kitwancool,  32 didn't he?  33 A I didn't hear that.  34 Q That was at the planning meeting you spoke of, wasn't  35 it?  36 A No, not in our meeting which I stated before, I don't  37 know about this.  38 Q Were you at a meeting at Kelly Morrison's house?  39 A Yes, I am.  40 Q And that was in January of 1983?  41 A Yes.  42 Q And Alice Jeffery was there?  43 A Yes.  44 Q And Mary Johnson was there?  45 A Not Mary Johnson.  46 Q Richard Benson was there?  47 A Yes. 5306  J. Morrison (For Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Mackenzie  1 Q   John and Gordon Robinson were there?  2 A   Yes.  3 Q   And when the meeting opened, you and your brother Sam  4 made speeches?  5 A   No.  6 Q   And then John Robinson spoke?  7 A   John Robinson spoke first.  8 Q   And he said he was taking the name Txaaxwok back to  9 Kitwancool?  10 A   No.  11 Q   He said they never knew what was happening and their  12 chief was never there?  13 A   No.  14 Q   And then Richard Benson spoke and said it wasn't  15 right, do you recall him saying that?  16 A   No.  17 Q   And then Neil B. Sterritt senior spoke, do you  18 remember that?  19 A   Yes.  20 Q   And Mr. Sterritt senior explained it used to take a  21 long time to get to the feasts and it was important to  22 live in your own village, do you remember that?  23 A   No.  24 THE COURT:  Did you say it took a long time to get to the  25 "piece"?  26 MR. MACKENZIE:  To get to the feasts, my lord.  27 A   I think what you are saying you do it opposite way,  28 Mr. Sterritt had mentioned, N. B. Sterritt advised  29 that at this time he stated on that meeting, our  30 meeting, that's our meeting at that time he stated it  31 only takes a few minutes to go to the feast, as travel  32 today as in a car.  That's before it takes a day but  33 still there is to travel that far, no matter where  34 they are living at that time.  The only house is  35 important where it's originated.  This is what he was  36 spoken about at that time.  37 MR. MACKENZIE:  Now my lord, I refer to the document at tab 5,  38 at page 100.  Does your lordship have that reference?  3 9    THE COURT:  Yes.  40 MR. MACKENZIE:  41 Q   Now, my lord, this reference is also page 99, page 99  42 there is a date January 11, 1983, and there is an  43 indication, "Eddie Russell died this morning.  His  44 name was Txaaxwok, Kitwancool, Wolf, possible  45 successors are James or Sam Morrison and John and  46 Gordon Robinson."  You agree with that, don't you, Mr.  47 Morrison? 5307  J. Morrison (For Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Mackenzie  1 A   No.  2 Q   You don't agree with that?  3 A   I don't know about this one.  I don't know who wrote  4 this.  5 Q   This is Mr. Sterritt's notes.  6 A   I don't know anything about that.  If we have meeting  7 we have got to have something somebody so to write  8 this for us, not from somebody from outside we don't  9 give them permission to do that.  I don't recognize  10 this as writing of our family.  11 Q   I understand.  John and Gordon was born in and raised  12 in Gitanmaax, that's correct, isn't it?  13 A   I don't know anything about this.  14 Q   Is that correct or not?  15 A   Not correct.  16 Q   Not correct.  When their father died they moved back  17 to Kitwancool; is that correct?  18 A  Well, I said I don't know anything about this.  19 Q   Is that correct or not?  20 A   I said I don't know anything about it.  21 Q   Do you disagree with that?  22 A  Well, I say I don't know anything about it.  What I  23 don't know, I don't tell.  24 Q   You don't know whether John and Gordon were born in  25 Gitanmaax, is that your evidence?  2 6 A  Well, that's what I am saying.  I don't know where  27 they are born.  It's their business to know where they  28 are born and your business to know where you are born.  2 9 Q   Yes, that's right.  And you don't know whether when  30 their father died they moved back to Kitwancool?  31 A   No, that's the same thing again.  32 THE COURT:  Should we take the afternoon adjournment?  33 MR. MACKENZIE:  Yes, my lord.  34  35 (Proceedings adjourned for afternoon adjournment)  36  37  38 I hereby certify the foregoing to be  39 a true and accurate transcript of the  40 proceedings herein to the best of my  41 skill and ability.  42  43  44  45 Wilf Roy  46 Official Reporter  47 xh2 J. Morrison (for Plaintiffs) 530?  J. Morrison (For Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Mackenzie  1 (PROCEEDINGS RESUMED PURSUANT TO A SHORT ADJOURNMENT)  2 THE REGISTRAR:  Order in court.  3 THE COURT:  Mr. Mackenzie?  4 MR. MACKENZIE:  Referring to page 100 at Tab 5, those notes say  5 about half-way down under a date January 16, 1983:  6  7 "John Robinson spoke and said he was taking  8 the name to Kitwancool because they never  9 know -- he never knew what was happening and  10 their chief was never there".  11  12 Does your lordship have that reference?  13 THE COURT:  Yes.  14 MR. MACKENZIE:  15 Q   Now, you disagree with that?  16 A   Yes.  17 Q   At page 101 at the bottom on the same Tab 5, last  18 paragraph on the bottom of page 101, the note reads:  19  20  21 "Steve Robinson phoned and said James  22 Morrison is very disappointed because of  23 what's happening, but Sam Morrison not too  24 worried".  25  26 Is that correct?  27 A   I don't know anything about this.  28 Q   On page 102 it follows:  29  30 "Steve Robinson said it's not good but  31 Gordon and John Robinson will have to pay  32 for the whole feast".  33  34 Do you know anything about that?  35 A   No.  36 Q   And then the second paragraph on page 102, "Gordon  37 Robinson will take the name Txaaxwok", do you know  38 anything about that?  39 A   No.  40 Q   You disagree with that?  41 A   Disagree with that.  42 Q   And following down on page 102 under the heading "5:30  43 p.m.":  44  45  46 "James Morrison called to inquire whether I  47 attended Kitwanga feast or Gordon took the 5309  J. Morrison (For Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Mackenzie  1 name Txaaxwok".  2  3 Did you make that telephone call to Mr. Sterritt?  4 A   No.  5 Q   You deny that?  6 A   I don't make any call.  7 Q  8 "James not too concerned that he's not  9 getting the name, but he disagrees with the  10                   way it's been done".  11  12 Did you disagree with that?  13 A   I disagree.  14 Q   That's not true?  15 A   Not true.  16 Q  17 "The right way is to bring the family  18 together and discuss it, so someone should  19 have asked Eddie if since he's not using the  20 name, it could go to someone who will wear  21 the name".  22  23 Did you say that?  24 A   No.  I don't know anything about it.  25 Q   Is it true that Eddie wasn't using the name?  2 6 A   I don't know about this.  I don't know who wrote this  27 or anything.  As I say before, I don't recognize  2 8 anything that we didn't write in our own meeting.  29 Q   Do you usually take notes at your meetings?  30 A  Well, someone we hired to -- we paid him for to take  31 notes.  Every records in our feast and any meetings,  32 serious meeting, that we have to hire someone  33 ourselves, so we depending on her or he that wrote the  34 note, and if I have the note today, I would show you  35 exactly what happened.  36 Q   Did you have notes taken at the planning meeting in  37 1983?  3 8 A   Yes, we do.  39 Q   And where are those notes?  40 A   In our file, in our own file.  We have our own record.  41 Each chiefs have own record, and it's none of my  42 business to tell anybody what happened there, but what  43 I'm doing myself, this is what I'm saying.  We took  44 records of all those things, who died, the time of  45 death and what happened at that time.  That's how we  46 look after this.  We manage all these things  47 ourselves, not -- anybody, if you write somebody 5310  J. Morrison (For Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Mackenzie  1 else's business, you going to be in trouble with that.  2 This is what happens.  You get into those things  3 yourself and nobody knows about it.  Bound to be in  4 trouble with that.  5 Q   You have a record, a written record of the planning  6 meeting before you took the name Txaaxwok?  7 A   Yes.  We have in Hazelton.  8 Q   You have a written record of the feast at which you  9 took the name Txaaxwok?  10 A   Yes.  11 Q   And was that in January, 1983?  12 A   '84.  13 Q   And '84.  And tell me, please, where those records are  14 located?  15 A   It's in my own house and it's locked in.  16 Q   In your house in Hazelton?  17 A   Yes.  I have my own key for that, and I only the one  18 that handle that, because it's important for us to  19 keep it in place where it's safe so nobody will take  20 it out or destroy it.  21 Q   That's in your house on the Gitanmaax Reserve?  22 A   Yes.  23 Q   Well, Mr. Morrison, I request that you produce those  24 notes of those meetings to the Court, because you have  25 disagreed with the notes we have about those meetings.  26 A   Yes.  27 MR. MACKENZIE:  So, my lord, I make an application for an order  28 to that effect.  2 9 THE COURT:  Mr. Rush?  30 MR. RUSH:  Well, what's the practical consequence of this  31 application?  The practical -- how does anyone get to  32 those except Mr. Morrison?  Is my friend suggesting  33 that Mr. Morrison be relieved from the witness stand  34 and fly up to Hazelton and get the notes and fly back  35 here and give evidence on the notes?  36 THE COURT:  I don't know if that's what he's asking or not.  37 MR. RUSH:  I -- all I can say, my lord, is I don't know about  38 the existence of any notes.  I don't know if we're  39 talking about two different things.  There is an event  40 that in my friend's mind occurred in '83 and in the  41 witness' mind in 1984.  42 MR. MACKENZIE:  Not only in my mind, my lord.  43 MR. RUSH:  Well, are you speaking from Mr. Sterritt's mind now?  44 MR. MACKENZIE:  No.  I'm speaking from the record — not the  45 record, but the notes I've referred the witness to.  46 MR. RUSH:  And you'll notice in the notes there's two and three  47 and four times hearsay.  Do you rely on those? 5311  J. Morrison (For Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Mackenzie  1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  THE COURT:  There's a number of possibilities.  The  cross-examination raises a question about whether Mr.  Morrison is the chief he claims to be.  There is a  note here made by Mr. Sterritt that says that -- that  Gordon Robinson would take the name, and Mr. Morrison  was disappointed, and this will be the way it was  done, and it may be that these things all happen and  then they were reversed or something.  I just don't  know, but it does seem to me that in the ordinary  course of litigation, the -- these things happen, and  the documents are -- it seems to me are -- are  producible.  Now, we have a practical problem.  What  do we do about that?  What is your suggestion, Mr.  Mackenzie?  MR. MACKENZIE:  Well, my lord, my suggestion is that perhaps Mr.  Morrison should contact someone in Hazelton, arrange  to have the notes given to Mr. Grant, who can arrange  to have them sent down here.  That's one possibility.  But the question of practicality --  THE COURT:  I don't know, Mr. Mackenzie.  It seems to me that I  ought to do no more than order that the notes be  produced, although I haven't heard Mr. Rush in full on  that.  And then if there are further problems, that  can be raised again.  It seems to me I ought not to  get into the question of how the notes are being made  available.  Do you disagree in any way, Mr. Rush, in  my making an order that the notes be produced?  MR. RUSH:  Well, I'd like your lordship to be satisfied that  this is a relevant and probative area of evidence.  Now, does my friend take the position that this  witness is not Txaaxwok?  Is that the point of his  cross-examination?  THE COURT:  I don't know.  MR. RUSH: I think we should be satisfied before we get into the  machinations of figuring out how to get the notes down  here.  THE COURT:  It goes further than that, Mr. Rush.  Surely you're  not entitled to defeat production on the narrow basis  of applying the usual test, which I think is far too  broad, but the legal test is that the parties of  litigation are entitled to have production of anything  that might be relevant.  It seems to me this might be  relevant.  MR. RUSH:  Well, it might be relevant.  It might be -- it might  cost the plaintiffs $500 to determine that it might  not be.  THE COURT:  The witness says he has the documents, and they 5312  J. Morrison (For Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Mackenzie  1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  should have been produced before that.  If there's a  cost, it's unfortunate, but --  MR. RUSH:  Well, my lord, with respect, I mean, should have.  I  mean, this is the first time I've heard of the  existence of notes here, and I think your lordship has  to take into account that this is not -- Mr.  Morrison's not a plaintiff.  He is a witness called by  the plaintiffs, and that the information that's been  disclosed here is first time knowledge, and now we're  dealing with whether or not, it seems to me, these  notes are probative, and I think you should be  satisfied -- I mean, it could possibly be that there  is a whole host of potential documents that might be  relevant in the hands of people other than plaintiffs.  THE COURT:  But when you call the witness, you put him forward  as a person who you have confidence and he has given  certain evidence, and that's now being challenged.  There seems to be some written record supporting the  challenge.  MR. RUSH:  But what I want to know, my lord, and I think you  should know, is what is the challenge?  What is it  that's being suggested by this cross-examination,  because --  THE COURT:  I'm not sure at this early stage of Mr. Mackenzie's  cross-examination he's required to make that  declaration.  MR. RUSH:  Well, I think he is at this point if the witness and  the plaintiffs have to go to the trouble.  If it  were -- if we were sitting in Smithers, of course, it  would be a matter of firing down the highway and  coming back and determining, as we did, I think, with  Mrs. McKenzie.  THE COURT:  Is it thought that this witness is going to be  finished this week?  MR. RUSH:  I certainly had hoped so.  THE COURT:  Well, I think what I'll do, Mr. Mackenzie, is I will  request you to kindly continue with your  cross-examination, and it may be that tomorrow or the  next day, if we're still going, you can renew your  application and we'll have to deal with it at that  time.  It may be the importance of these documents in  your mind will assume lesser importance, or it may be  that you want to pursue your inquiries.  I think that  we have to get on with the evidence, get more into it.  It may be that overnight everyone will give some  thought to the matter and maybe be able to come up  with a practical solution.  I think that Mr. Rush is 5313  J. Morrison (For Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Mackenzie  1 right in that it may not be necessary to make a  2 definitive ruling right at this moment.  We've got the  3 rest of the day to go on anyway.  It shouldn't be used  4 talking about things that might be soluable outside of  5 Court in some other way.  Let's go on with the trial  6 and you can renew your application.  I hope, of  7 course, counsel might have some discretion between  8 them and work the matter out, but that may not be  9 possible.  Proceed, please.  10 MR. MACKENZIE:  Yes, my lord.  I think your lordship has — has  11 ended that discussion, but if your lordship will  12 permit me to say that my application stands and that I  13 will --  14 THE COURT:  You don't need to say that, Mr. Mackenzie.  15 MR. MACKENZIE:  Yes.  Thank you, my lord.  And that, of course,  16 I have reasons for making that application.  17 THE COURT:  Is there more than one Eddie that might be involved  18 in this dialogue, Mr. Morrison?  19 THE WITNESS:  Which one?  20 THE COURT:  Is there more than one Eddie?  21 THE WITNESS:  No.  There's only one.  22 THE COURT:  Only because this shows on January 11th Eddie  23 Russell died, and then on the -- the note on the 16th  24 we're talking about since Eddie's not using the name,  25 it could go to someone else.  It almost implies that  26 he's -- that that Eddie is still alive.  27 THE WITNESS:  Well, this is what I mean.  I don't know what's  28 going on here.  You see, there must be something goes  2 9 on which I don't know, which my friend has produced  30 today, which I don't know.  If I know something, then  31 I would tell you.  32 THE COURT:  All right.  Thank you.  33 MR. MACKENZIE:  34 Q   Let's get this clear, my lord.  I didn't produce  35 these.  These are plaintiff's documents.  36 And following over on page 103, the last paragraph  37 on page 103, the note says, apparently referring to a  38 telephone conversation:  "James said his dad told him  39 not to take a name that wasn't settled".  Did your  40 father tell you that, Mr. Morrison?  41 A   No.  I don't know anything about it.  42 Q   I beg your pardon?  43 A   I don't know anything about it.  44 Q   Do you deny that?  45 A   Yes.  Whose dad?  46 Q   Your father?  47 A   Father?  He's dead long time ago. 5314  J. Morrison (For Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Mackenzie  1 Q   You deny that your father told you not to take a name  2 that wasn't settled?  3 A  Well, she been passed on.  4 THE COURT:  No.  Before he died.  Before he died.  5 THE WITNESS:  No.  He didn't say anything.  I don't know  6 anything about it.  7 THE COURT:  Something very strange here.  The top notes says "If  8 Eddie disagrees, then people can act the way they  9 like".  I don't know who Eddie is now.  10 MR. MACKENZIE:  11 Q   And the funeral for Eddie Russell was at Glen Vowel;  12 is that correct?  13 A   Yes.  14 Q   And after the church ceremony, Pete Muldoe and Elsie  15 Morrison put the Txaaxwok blanket on your shoulders?  16 A   In the feast hall.  17 Q   And then you spoke and said that you had opened the  18 coffin for everyone to see Eddie for the last time?  19 Do you recall saying that?  20 A   I don't recall.  21 Q   You deny that?  22 A   I didn't know anything about it.  23 Q   Do you not deny that?  24 A   Yes.  25 Q   Now, your mother was Kitwancool wolf clan, wasn't she?  26 A   Yes.  27 Q   And she had -- did she have brothers and sisters?  2 8 A   Yeah.  That's Eddie.  29 Q   Eddie was her brother?  30 A   Yeah.  31 Q   And did she have any sisters?  32 A   No.  I don't think so.  I don't know.  It's maybe  33 before my time, but I don't know.  34 Q   Any brothers other than Eddie?  35 A   That's Alfred.  36 Q   Beg your pardon?  37 A  Alfred Russell.  38 Q   And did Alfred live near Hazelton?  39 A   Yes.  That's Glen Vowel, not Hazelton.  40 Q   Alfred Russell lived in Glen Vowel?  41 A   Yes.  42 THE COURT:  And Eddie was your mother's brother?  43 THE WITNESS:  Yes.  The three of them.  44 MR. MACKENZIE:  45 Q   Did your mother live at Glen Vowel before she was  46 married?  47 A   Yes. 5315  J. Morrison (For Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Mackenzie  1  Q  2  3  A  4  Q  5  6  A  7  Q  8  9  A  10  Q  11  A  12  Q  13  14  A  15  Q  16  17  A  18  Q  19  A  20  Q  21  22  A  23  Q  24  25  A  26  Q  27  28  A  29  Q  30  31  32  33  A  34  Q  35  A  36  37  Q  38  A  39  Q  40  A  41  Q  42  A  43  THE COURT  44  THE WITNE  45  46  47  MR. macke:  So -- and you say there are other Kitwancool wolf clan  people living in Glen Vowel; is that the case?  Not in Glen Vowel.  There are other Kitwancool wolf clan living in  Hazelton?  Yes.  And they're not represented in this litigation, are  they?  Not here today.  Did Eddie Russell have any children?  No.  Now, you were a -- one of the first directors of the  Gitksan-Carrier Tribal Council, weren't you?  Which director?  You were a director of the Gitksan-Carrier Tribal  Council, weren't you?  Yes.  In 1978?  Yes.  And you were also involved with the Gitksan-Carrier  Tribal Council before 1978?  Yes.  You were present at the tribal council presentation to  the minister in 1977?  Not in that time.  You weren't present when the tribal council made its  land claims presentation?  Not at that time.  That was September, 1977.  You know about that, don't  you?  I beg your pardon.  Thank you.  My friend  corrected me.  That meeting was in November of 1977.  You know about that, don't you?  You mean in Vancouver?  No.  In -- I understand it was in Hazelton.  The only place that I know where the meeting is in  Smithers where they presented the case.  When the tribal council presented its land claims?  That's the place that I know.  And when was that?  That's the time in September.  And were you there?  I was there.  :  1977?  3S:  I don't remember what year that was, but I know I  was there.  I was just attending.  I didn't say  anything at that time.  I was just attending. 5316  J. Morrison (For Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Mackenzie  1 Q   And was that when the chiefs made presentations about  2 their land claim?  3 A   I wasn't in the courtroom when they presenting.  I was  4 just having -- after presenting the court case, they  5 come to the hotel.  That's where it was to be  6 discussed about this issue here.  7 Q   I think -- I think I have misled you.  I'm speaking  8 about the tribal council presenting a land claim to  9 the federal government in September, 1977.  Now, do  10 you know about that, in November, 1977?  11 A   November?  No.  I wouldn't recall, remember any of  12 those.  I do attend some of those meetings, but not  13 into that meeting that I remember.  14 Q   You were a director of the Gitksan-Carrier Tribal  15 Council?  16 A   Board of director, not specific into these case here,  17 something to do with these -- what you call the  18 business.  19 Q   You were a director of the Gitksan-Carrier Tribal  20 Council for Gitanmaax, weren't you?  21 A   Yeah.  Gitanmaax.  22 Q   You represented the Gitanmaax Band didn't you?  23 A   Yes.  24 Q   And when did you first become a director representing  25 Gitanmaax?  26 A   I can't remember when I first got into there as  27 hereditary chief, appointed as the person to be in  28 there.  29 Q   You were a band counsellor then, weren't you?  30 A   Band counsellor.  31 Q   And you were a Kitwancool wolf clan subchief at that  32 time, weren't you?  33 A   Yes.  34 Q   So I take it that you went into the tribal council  35 soon after you became a band counsellor at Gitanmaax;  36 is that correct?  37 A   Not directly, just off and on.  It's not all the time.  38 It's not in the office.  39 Q   Well, it was before 1978, wasn't it?  40 A   Yeah.  It was represented by the band.  41 Q   Yes.  And when you were a director, the tribal council  42 included the Kitwancool Band, didn't it?  43 A   Not so.  44 Q   The tribal council, the Gitskan-Carrier Tribal Council  45 represented the Kitwancool Band in 1978, didn't it?  46 A   Not that I know.  It wasn't included that I know.  I  47 was working there and I didn't know anything about it. 5317  J. Morrison (For Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Mackenzie  1 Q   So your evidence is that you didn't know that the  2 tribal council represented Kitwancool in 1978?  3 A   There was no Kitwancool into that claim at that time  4 that I know.  As I just mentioned a little while ago,  5 they were not in there.  6 Q   Now, in 1977 Mr. Sterritt worked for the  7 Gitksan-Carrier Tribal Council, didn't he, Neil  8 Sterritt Junior?  9 A   In '77?  10 Q   Yes.  11 A   I don't know what year it was in there.  12 Q   He did research for the Gitksan-Carrier Tribal  13 Council, didn't he?  14 A   Yes.  15 Q   And I refer you to a document at Tab 8 of the document  16 book.  17 My lord, I am referring to the document at Tab 5,  18 which is entitled -- at Tab 8 entitled  19 "Gitksan-Carrier Tribal Council Request For Funding  20 For Research By Gitksan-Carrier Land Committee", July,  21 1977.  And at page 1, paragraph one I refer Mr.  22 Morrison to that.  23 The first paragraph in this document says, Mr.  24 Morrison:  "The Gitksan-Carrier Tribal Council  25 represents eight Indian bands in Northwest British  26 Columbia:  Kitwancool, Kitwanga, Gitsegukla,  27 Gitanmaax, Sikadoak, Kispiox and Moricetown; is that  28 correct, in 1977?  29 A   Except Kitwancool.  It's not in there.  30 Q   So you say that that sentence is wrong?  31 A   Yes.  32 Q   Mr. Morrison, looking at that document, when you were  33 a director of the tribal council, did you see that  34 document in 1977?  35 A   There's no signature on this one.  36 Q   No.  This was -- it says it was prepared by the  37 Gitksan-Carrier Tribal Council Land Claims Committee.  38 Do you know that committee?  39 A   No.  40 Q   I'm instructed that Mr. Sterritt prepared this  41 document.  Can you identify this document at Tab 8?  42 The document you're looking at, have you seen it  43 before?  44 A   Not this one.  45 Q   Referring to the document at Tab 9, that's entitled  46 "Gitksan-Carrier Tribal Council Past Performance and  47 Future Direction, A Report Prepared For the 531?  J. Morrison (For Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Mackenzie  1 Gitksan-Carrier Tribal Council By M.J. Sterritt, March  2 1976".  Now, you were involved in the tribal council  3 in 1976, weren't you?  4 A  Who is the signature on the bottom here?  5 Q   Well, this was an exhibit at Mr. Sterritt's  6 examination for discovery.  That's what that says  7 there.  Can you identify that document?  8 A   No.  I don't know.  9 Q   Okay.  10 A   I didn't see this.  11 Q   Okay.  Well, at page 16 that document, paragraph 1.1,  12 there's a sentence, first sentence:  "Gitksan-Carrier  13 Tribal Council was originally established as a  14 political voice for the Indian people of the Babine  15 district".  Is that correct?  16 A   I never did see this before.  This never been in front  17 of me.  18 Q   Do you agree with that statement?  19 A   No.  20 Q   Do you deny it?  21 A  What I don't know, I don't agree with it.  22 Q   Well, I'm asking you whether you agree with that  23 statement, whether it's true or not?  24 A   I disagree with that.  25 MR. MACKENZIE:  You disagree with it.  And over at paragraph  26 2.1, several pages over, my lord, Section 2.1, the  27 third paragraph:  "Council is made up of two members  28 from each of the eight band councils".  Do you agree  29 with that?  30 MR. RUSH:  You're asking the witness to agree with the statement  31 that in March of 1976, when this was penned?  32 MR. MACKENZIE:  Yes.  33 MR. RUSH:  That the council is made up of two members from each  34 of the eight band councils?  35 MR. MACKENZIE:  Yes.  36 MR. RUSH:  Okay.  37 MR. MACKENZIE:  38 Q   Do you agree with that statement, Mr. Morrison?  39 A   Can you repeat it again, which one you're --  40 Q   Sorry.  The council is made up of two members from  41 each of the eight band councils.  This was written in  42 1976?  43 A   Yes.  44 Q   Is that correct?  Is that then --  45 A   Two members represented by each band.  46 Q   Yes.  It says for all eight band councils?  47 A   Not eight.  The Kitwancool is not on at that time.  As 5319  J. Morrison (For Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Mackenzie  1 I say, I recall because I was there and I seen these  2 people represented all the time.  I only saying this  3 is what happened at our band.  That shows the people  4 who's being represented.  That doesn't mean I agree  5 with all of them.  6 Q   Yes.  I understand.  We just want to find out about  7 the -- I want to find out about the tribal council in  8 those early years when you were a director?  9 A   Yes.  10 Q   Then the fourth paragraph says:  "The council is not a  11 legal entity as such, but is recognized by all of the  12 bands and band members as the political voice of the  13 eight bands".  Now, you disagree with that, I take it?  14 A   I disagree with that, because it's only people that  15 involved what is still today.  16 Q   And the point of your disagreement is that Kitwancool  17 wasn't involved; is that what you say?  18 A  Wasn't involved.  There's people at the meeting at  19 some times, not only me as Kitwancool, also the other  20 members of Kitwancool, because they're working  21 together.  It doesn't mean that we're joined to the  22 tribal council.  23 Q   Right.  But you agree that the tribal council was the  24 political voice of the other Indian bands in the  25 Babine district?  26 A   On the seven bands, not eight bands.  27 Q   Now, I'm suggesting to you that the Kitwancool  28 territory was included in the tribal council land  29 claim in 1977.  Can you agree with that?  30 A   I don't know anything about it.  31 Q   Now, I have a copy of trial Exhibit 113, which I'll  32 show to you and then I'll hand up to his lordship,  33 because I haven't -- haven't asked Madam Registrar  34 about this.  This was Exhibit 6 on Mr. Sterritt's  35 examination for discovery, and this document is  36 entitled "Territories of the Gitksan and Carrier  37 Indians, Presentation to the Government of Canada, The  38 Honourable Hugh Faulkner, Minister of Indian Affairs.  39 Kispiox, B.C., November 7, 1977".  Now, have you seen  40 that map before, Mr. Morrison?  41 A   No.  Never seen things like that before.  42 Q   Now, I'm going to refer you to a feature on this map,  43 which is in Exhibit 113, and that is, I'm going to ask  44 you to agree with me that Highway 37 from Kitwanga to  45 Meziaden Lake is included within the boundary of this  46 claim in Exhibit 113.  Can you agree with me that that  47 is included within the boundaries? 5320  J. Morrison (For Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Mackenzie  1 A   I don't know who made this, and I don't know -- I  2 didn't see this before and I can't comment on it.  3 Q   Well, can you agree with me that Meziaden Lake appears  4 on this map?  Can you see that?  5 A   Yes.  I see Meziaden Lake there.  6 Q   And you said that's about 80 miles north of Kitwanga,  7 didn't you?  8 A   Yes.  9 MR. MACKENZIE:  So your lordship has the map now.  Can your  10 lordship see the -- what we're speaking of now?  11 THE COURT:  Well, I haven't found it yet, but —  12 MR. RUSH:  My lord —  13 THE COURT:  It'll just take me a moment.  14 MR. RUSH:  If your lordship can start at Hazelton.  15 MR. MACKENZIE:  Does your lordship have Hazelton and down the  16 river to Kitwanga?  17 THE COURT:  I have 37, and Meziaden Lake is just where it joins  18 the Stewart-Cassiar Highway.  19 MR. MACKENZIE:  Yes.  Does your lordship have that?  20 THE COURT:  Well, the print's so small that my tired eyes can't  21 see it, but I think I see Meziaden Lake.  It's right  22 at the junction, isn't it?  23 MR. MACKENZIE:  Yes.  24 THE COURT:  Yes.  I see it.  25 MR. MACKENZIE:  I'll hand it up to your lordship.  26 THE COURT:  Is it any different than mine?  27 MR. MACKENZIE:  28 Q   As far as clarity, this may be better.  29 So the point of all this, Mr. -- not all of this,  30 but the point of these last questions, Mr. Morrison,  31 is that I suggest to you that the Kitwancool people  32 were part of the Gitksan-Carrier Tribal Council in  33 1977, and you disagree with that; is that your  34 evidence?  35 A   Yes.  36 Q   And I suggest to you also that the Kitwancool land  37 claim was included within the Gitksan-Carrier land  38 claim in 1977.  Do you disagree with that?  39 A   Yes.  40 Q   Yes.  And I suggest to you, then, that shortly after  41 that, the Kitwancool people made a separate claim to  42 the federal government in 1977.  Do you know anything  43 about that?  44 A   I don't know anything about it.  45 Q   But you -- your evidence today was that recently the  46 Kitwancool people didn't join this litigation; isn't  47 that correct? 5321  J. Morrison (For Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Mackenzie  1 A   Yes.  2 Q   And you said it was because they felt they weren't  3 ready; is that correct?  4 A   That's right.  5 Q   Well, they've never joined since 1977, have they?  6 A   Never.  7 Q   No.  And your evidence is that the Kitwancool people  8 speak the same language as the other Gitksan people?  9 A   Yes.  10 Q   And they have the same customs?  11 A   Yes.  12 Q   And they have the same system of totem poles and  13 crests?  14 A   Yes.  15 Q   And they have the same system of laws?  16 A   Yes.  17 Q   And they have matrilineal system or passage on the  18 mother's side?  19 A   Yes.  20 Q   And they have houses and clans?  21 A   Yes.  22 Q   And the Kitwancool people are related in many cases to  23 other people living in the Gitksan areas?  24 A   Yes.  25 Q   And many Kitwancool people, such as yourself, live in  26 Hazelton and other areas within the land claim?  27 A   Yes.  28 MR. MACKENZIE:  My lord, I'm about to go into a new area of  29 cross-examination, my lord, if this would be a  30 convenient time.  31 THE COURT:  All right.  Thank you.  We'll adjourn until 10  32 o'clock tomorrow morning.  33 THE REGISTRAR:  Order in court.  Court will adjourn.  34 (PROCEEDINGS ADJOURNED UNTIL APRIL 20, 1988 AT 10:00 A.M.)  35  36 I hereby certify the foregoing to be  37 a true and accurate transcript of the  38 proceedings transcribed to the best  39 of my skill and ability.  40  41  42  43 Kathie Tanaka, Official Reporter  44 UNITED REPORTING SERVICE LTD.  45  46  47

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