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Delgamuukw Trial Transcripts

[Proceedings of the Supreme Court of British Columbia 1988-04-22] British Columbia. Supreme Court Apr 22, 1988

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 5397  1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  J. Morrison (for Plaintiffs)  Proceedings  Vancouver, B.C.  April 22, 1988  (PROCEEDINGS RESUMED PURSUANT TO ADJOURNMENT)  THE COURT:  I do apologize.  I was invited, or commanded to  attend a meeting of the Rules Committee this morning  for a few minutes and they kept me longer than I had  hoped.  THE REGISTRAR: In the Supreme Court of British Columbia. This  Friday April 22, 1988. Calling Delgamuuwk versus her  Majesty the Queen at bar, my lord.  I caution the witness and the interpreter you're  both still under oath.  JAMES MORRISON, Resumed:  THE  MR.  THE  MR.  COURT  RUSH:  MR.  THE  MR.  COURT:  Mr. Mackenzie.  MACKENZIE:  Thank you, my lord.  Now, my lord, there was one matter left over from  yesterday dealing with the Babine slide road.  And  your lordship may recall that that road goes up to  Kisgagas.  I'm not going to go into any details on  that, my lord, except to say that I advised the court  yesterday my instructions, or my understanding was the  road was built in 1951, and you recall that was the  date noted in the Order in Counsel we exhibited, but  in fact I'm now instructed the road was built in 1953  by the Department of Fisheries, my lord.  All right.  Thank you.  Good thing we don't trust everything we read in the  documents, my lord.  Well, I didn't mistrust it, Mr. Rush, but I knew  that because an Order in Counsel was passed  authorizing something didn't mean it happened that  date.  And the year is what again, 1950 --  MACKENZIE:  1953, my lord.  COURT:  '53.  Thank you.  MACKENZIE:  But all the other information as I understand is  correct.  Well, we'll ask Mr. Mackenzie to take the stand and  give us that assurance.  I always accept the assurances of counsel when they  are confidently stated.  MACKENZIE:  Actually, Mr. Morrison testified to the other  details about the fact that that road was built by the  Department of Fisheries to gain access to the slide.  THE COURT  MR.  THE  MR.  RUSH:  COURT: 539?  J. Morrison (for Plaintiffs)  Proceedings  21 MR. MACKENZIE  22 THE REGISTRAR  2 3    MR. MACKENZIE  1 THE COURT:  What exhibit number did we mark with relation to  2 that?  3 THE REGISTRAR:  The Order in Counsel?  4 THE COURT:  Sorry?  5 THE REGISTRAR:  The Order in Counsel?  6 THE COURT:  Yes.  7 THE REGISTRAR:  406.  Privy Counsel Order was 405 at tab 13.  8 Order in Counsel is tab 15, 406, my lord.  9 THE COURT:  Yes.  Thank you.  10 MR. MACKENZIE:  My lord, today I wish to deal with the blue  11 volume, volume 2, which is before your lordship.  And,  12 my lord, I'll also be asking your lordship to refer to  13 the territorial maps, plaintiffs' territorial maps A  14 and B, Exhibit 378 and 379.  And the first subject I  15 wish to address, my lord, is admissions of admitted  16 documents with respect to traplines.  That is  17 contained in the blue volume at volume 2.  And if your  18 lordship will follow through with me then to tab 7,  19 that document has been admitted by the plaintiffs.  20 THE COURT:  All right.  Are you seeking to mark that?  I would have that marked, my lord.  I have to know what it is.  Yes.  That's a document entitled Trapline  24 Administration.  25 THE COURT:  Is that what that says?  26 MR. MACKENZIE:  Yes, my lord.  I have the original, my lord, if  27 necessary.  And it's dated September 19, 1983.  2 8 THE COURT:  Yes.  All right.  29 THE REGISTRAR:  Exhibit 407, my lord.  30 THE COURT:  All right.  31  32 (EXHIBIT 407:  Trapline Administration  33 dtd. Sept.19/83 re James Morrison)  34  35 MR. MACKENZIE:  Now, the next document is at tab 8, my lord, and  36 that document is also a document entitled Trapline  37 Administration dated September 19, 1983 regarding John  38 Delbert Robinson.  39 THE REGISTRAR:  That will be 408, my lord, tab 8.  4 0 THE COURT:  Yes, 4 08.  41  42 (EXHIBIT 408:  Trapline Administration  43 dtd. Sept.19/83 re John D. Robinson)  44  45 MR. MACKENZIE:  My lord, for purposes of clarification, perhaps  46 I could mention Exhibit 407 relates to James Morrison.  47 THE COURT:  Yes.  This one relates to John Robinson. 5399  J. Morrison (for Plaintiffs)  Proceedings  1 MR. MACKENZIE:  The next document is tab 9, which is Application  2 for Registration of a Trapline John Robinson & Company  3 dated March 3, 1950.  And I have a copy of the  4 original.  There's -- the actual date in March is a  5 little unclear.  It's March 1 or 3, but it is March,  6 1950, my lord.  7 THE COURT:  Yes.  8 THE REGISTRAR:  409, tab nine.  9  10 (EXHIBIT 409:  Application for Registration of a  11 Trapline for John Robinson & Company dtd. Mar.3/50)  12  13 THE COURT:  Is that the trapline or the trapping — does that  14 represent the trapping rights that were relinquished  15 by tab 8?  16 MR. MACKENZIE:  Those — that's my understanding, my lord.  17 THE COURT:  Yes.  Okay.  18 MR. MACKENZIE:  Although, my lord, I have to qualify that by  19 referring to at tab 8, Exhibit 408, and pointing out  20 to your lordship that that document -- in that  21 document Mr. Robinson agrees to relinquish the right.  22 My instructions are that the paperwork and the actual  23 registration has not yet taken place.  24 THE COURT:  All right.  25 MR. MACKENZIE:  The reasons I'll get to in evidence, my lord.  26 The next document is tab 25, Application for  27 Registration of a Trapline Alex S. Brown & Company  28 dated June 7, 1946.  29 THE COURT:  This is an almost illegible document, Mr. Mackenzie.  30 MR. MACKENZIE:  I have a copy of the original here, my lord.  I  31 understood that clearer copies were all put in the  32 document books.  I can hand my copy up to your  33 lordship.  34 THE COURT:  I don't need it just now.  I think the best copy  35 should be filed as the exhibit.  This one can't be  3 6              made out.  37 MR. RUSH:  Are you talking about tab 25?  3 8 THE COURT:  Yes.  39 MR. RUSH:  That's not admitted.  40 MR. MACKENZIE:  Tab 25.  I refer to Mr. — Mr. Rush is disputing  41 the fact that that's admitted, my lord, so if I read  42 out the statement of the plaintiffs', or perhaps I  43 could assist Mr. Rush.  This is the -- fine, my lord.  44 Mr. Rush in his notice to -- in his response referred  45 to a document dated June 7, 1946, and we have a bit of  46 a dispute here now, my lord.  47 MR. RUSH:  Well, the face of the document, my lord, is AGBC 3298 5400  J. Morrison (for Plaintiffs)  Proceedings  1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  MR.  MR. RUSH  THE  MR.  THE  MR.  THE  MR.  MR.  THE  COURT  RUSH:  607T014, and it says Wilmer Johnson Trapline, and I  believe that's the way it was described on the notice  to admit.  If I'm wrong about that then --  MACKENZIE:  Yes, it was, my lord.  This trapline is now held  by Wilmer Johnson, and this particular application is  the application of Mr. Brown who held it before Mr.  Johnson.  If my friend wishes to withdraw that  admission perhaps I could discuss that with my friend  and he may want to admit the current trapline holder  who's Mr. Wilmer Johnson.  We have his application  here as well, my lord.  Is that satisfactory?  I just want to see what I admitted.  And if you will  just give me a moment, my lord.  Yes.  Certainly.  On the copy that I admitted there is not on the face  page as appears in tab 25 in parenthesis Application  for Trapline of Alex S. Brown dated June 7, 1946.  However, looking at the document that I did admit --  yes, it is the document that is contained in the first  three pages of that, so it appears to be the same  document.  All right.  Well, then this is an application by Mr.  Brown for trapline registration in 1946 which was --  which was relinquished to Wilmer Johnson & Company in  1966?  MACKENZIE:  That's correct, my lord.  That is on the reverse  of the document.  Well, what I'm admitting is the application for the  registration of the trapline and documents.  In 1946?  Yes.  And the document back and front.  I don't know if that's what this is or not.  THE COURT  MR.  MR. RUSH  COURT  RUSH:  COURT  RUSH:  Mr. Mackenzie, if you look at  Is that the same?  MACKENZIE:  Yes.  COURT:  You see my difficulty,  this document.  MR. MACKENZIE:  My lord, I'm handing the original up, and I'm  sorry, my lord, that you got the --  THE COURT:  Show Mr. Mackenzie that.  Well, the document I was  given -- my tab 25 is quite a different document.  MR. RUSH:  Well, my lord —  THE COURT:  Oh, it's the back I suppose.  MR. MACKENZIE:  If your lordship would be pleased to —  THE COURT:  Well —  MR. MACKENZIE:  — Compare the pages.  THE COURT:  Yes.  All right.  I can make an appropriate note.  know where to go and find the original.  Thank you. 5401  J. Morrison (for Plaintiffs)  Proceedings  REGISTRAR:  Are you entering this?  RUSH:  I think the original should be.  MACKENZIE:  I think the original, yes.  COURT:  All right that will be Exhibit 410.  REGISTRAR:  410.  (EXHIBIT 410:  Application for Registration of a  Trapline of Alex S. Brown & Company dtd. Jun.7/46)  MACKENZIE:  Now, my lord, my friend Mr. Rush also admitted  another document which is described in the written  response as Attorney General of British Columbia file  1276ATN, that's the assigned trapper number, 618T006,  Sam Morrison Trapline.  And, my lord, I don't have  that file number in my binder.  I do have the current  application for Sam Morrison in my binder, clear copy,  with the original taken from another -- another file,  and I wonder if my friend could advise which Sam  Morrison document he admitted in that response, or did  he admit the whole file?  That may be something we can  deal with at the adjournment, my lord.  COURT:  All right.  MACKENZIE:  And finally, my lord, I refer to the document at  tab 3 relating to James Morrison's trapline.  And my  understanding is that my friend has admitted that  document at tab 3, but I have to say, my lord, we  don't have an original copy of that.  It's a fairly  clear copy though at tab 3.  COURT:  The second page is the back, is it?  MACKENZIE:  Yes, my lord.  Those are my instructions.  RUSH:  Yes, my lord, what I admitted was the Application for  Registration of a Trapline.  MACKENZIE:  Yes.  RUSH:  Which is the bottom portion of tab 3 and the second  page.  The bottom portion of tab 3 and the second page  are back and front.  COURT:  The top part of the first page of tab 3 is not part  of the exhibit?  MACKENZIE:  Not part of the admission.  RUSH:  Not part of my admission.  COURT:  I'll cross it out.  The balance will be Exhibit 411  then.  RUSH:  Thank you.  REGISTRAR:  Is there a date on that.  MACKENZIE:  Yes.  This is an Application for Registration of  Trapline James Morrison dated June 7, 1946.  REGISTRAR:  Thank you.  1  THE  2  MR.  3  MR.  4  THE  5  THE  6  7  8  9  10  MR.  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  THE  23  MR.  24  25  26  27  28  29  THE  30  MR.  31  MR.  32  33  MR.  34  MR.  35  36  37  THE  38  39  MR.  40  MR.  41  THE  42  43  MR.  44  THE  45  MR.  46  47  THE 5402  J. Morrison (for Plaintiffs)  Proceedings  1 (EXHIBIT 411:  Application for Registration of a  2 Trapline of James Morrison dtd. Jun.7/46)  3  4 MR. MACKENZIE:  Just while we're speaking about that, my lord,  5 if your lordship will refer to tab 2 that's another  6 carbon copy of that document, and I have the original  7 of that.  That is I have the original of another of  8 the carbon copies with an original signature of  9 Exhibit 411 at tab 2.  10 THE COURT:  Yes.  11 MR. MACKENZIE:  So if my friend would wish to have that original  12 introduced I can show it to my friend.  13 THE COURT:  Are they the same thing?  14 MR. MACKENZIE:  Yes, my lord.  I'm showing the original to my  15 friend now.  16 MR. RUSH:  Well, my lord, I don't really have any -- what I've  17 admitted is what's on --  18 MR. MACKENZIE:  Fine, my lord.  19 MR. RUSH:  On page — on tab 3.  It's the same thing in tab 2,  20 and I really don't see the point in adding to the  21 record here by essentially adding --  22 THE COURT:  Is there any need to have tab 2 in evidence, Mr.  23 Mackenzie?  24 MR. MACKENZIE:  No, my lord.  I just wanted to assist my friend  25 if he wanted the original.  26 MR. RUSH:  Well, I'm sorry.  I think that if I admitted one or  27 the other it doesn't really matter to me.  I think  28 just one of the documents should go in.  I think it's  29 preferred --  30 THE COURT:  Shall we delete tab 2?  31 MR. RUSH:  That's what I think.  32 MR. MACKENZIE:  Fine, my lord.  I may say, my lord, these  33 trapline administration, there were several original  34 carbon copies distributed to different ones and that's  35 why --  36 THE COURT:  I'll give you back tab 2, Mr. Mackenzie.  37 MR. MACKENZIE:  Thank you, my lord.  That completes the  38 admissions with respect to those documents, my lord.  39 My lord, Mr. Rush, is prepared to resolve that Sam  40 Morrison trapline.  41 MR. RUSH:  Where is it in your tab?  42 MR. MACKENZIE:  The Sam Morrison trapline appears at page — at  43 tab 14 and 15 of the document book.  And one is the  44 April 6, 1962 application and the other is January 11,  45 1963 application.  4 6 THE COURT:  All right.  What — can you tell me what tab 14 is?  47 MR. MACKENZIE:  Tab 14, my lord, is the registration application 5403  J. Morrison (for Plaintiffs)  Proceedings  1 for Sam Morrison dated April 6, 1962.  2 THE COURT:  All right.  That will be Exhibit 412, Mr. Rush.  3 MR. RUSH:  I'm just checking the copy, my lord.  It looks like  4 it's the same.  5 MR. MACKENZIE:  I have the original for Mr. Rush if he wishes.  6 MR. RUSH:  That's fine.  That's the one we admitted, and I'm  7 content if my friend wants to put in the original  8 that's fine.  9 THE COURT:  That's Exhibit 412.  10 THE REGISTRAR:  412.  11  12 (EXHIBIT 412:  Application for Registration of a  13 Trapline of Sam Morrison dtd. Apr.6/62)  14  15 MR. MACKENZIE:  I haven't put the original in unless there's —  16 THE COURT:  All right.  What about tab 15?  17 MR. RUSH:  Yes, my lord.  We admitted the authenticity of that  18 as well.  I don't need the original.  19 THE COURT:  Exhibit 413.  20 THE REGISTRAR:  413.  21  22 (EXHIBIT 413:  Application for Registration of a  23 Trapline of Sam Morrison dtd. Jan.11/63)  24  25 MR. MACKENZIE:  That then completes the admissions with respect  26 to the documents in this binder, my lord.  2 7 THE COURT:  Thank you.  28 MR. MACKENZIE:  My lord, this evidence deals with traplines and  29 to -- as a matter of convenience for your lordship at  30 tab 1 of the blue binder I have set out an excerpt  31 from Exhibit 24A.  My lord, if you'll go to the back  32 of the tab the large -- the volumes with the  33 colouring -- the highlighting.  34 THE COURT:  Yes.  35 MR. MACKENZIE:  Your lordship will see in the lower left hand  36 corner of the first.  Letters A, B, C.  37 THE COURT:  Yes.  38 MR. MACKENZIE:  My lord, I have taken the liberty of putting the  39 numbers of the territories on this map to show -- to  40 orient your lordship as to the location of these  41 traplines with respect to the territories and Mr.  42 Morrison's affidavit.  And if your lordship will look  43 at —  44 THE COURT:  Is this large map with the coloured markings taken  45 from some other identified map?  46 MR. MACKENZIE:  Yes, Exhibit 24A, my lord.  The base map is from  47 Exhibit 24A for Identification. 5404  J. Morrison (for Plaintiffs)  Proceedings  COURT:  Same for D, E and F?  MACKENZIE:  Yes, my lord.  COURT:  Yes.  All right.  MACKENZIE:  And if I could just discuss this briefly, my  lord, to orient your lordship.  The first A, B, C  shows territory A which your lordship will recall is  Chipmunk Creek territory.  Your lordship has map A,  Exhibit 378 with —  COURT:  Yes.  MACKENZIE:  These are northern territories, my lord.  COURT:  Yes.  MACKENZIE:  And, my lord, if you look at territory A, that's  Chipmunk Creek territory, with the documents that have  been admitted now, my lord, the trapline that covers  up -- covers -- or in that area your lordship will see  is 0618T006, and that's Sam Morrison's trapline.  That's the subject of two of the exhibits which we  marked today, my lord, Exhibit 412 --  COURT:  412 and 413.  MACKENZIE:  — And 413.  COURT:  Is that territory circled in yellow encompass both  412 and 413?  MACKENZIE:  Yes, my lord.  Same trapline, my lord.  Those  applications are subsequent.  COURT:  I see.  All right.  MACKENZIE:  And then going to territory B, my lord, your  lordship will recall territory B is the Fort Creek  territory, and there is an area east of the Skeena  River.  And that territory is covered by trapline  0618T005 according to this map Exhibit 24A.  Does your  lordship have that reference?  COURT:  Yes.  MACKENZIE:  Now, my lord, we do not have an admission with  respect to that trapline and the application for that  trapline, but your lordship -- but, my lord, Exhibit  24A and the supporting documents show that trapline is  held in the name of Mr. Ernest Angus.  And then, my lord, moving to the part of area B  west of the Skeena River.  Does your lordship have  that reference?  COURT:  Yes.  MACKENZIE:  The documents show that area is covered by  trapline 0617T001.  Does your lordship see that  reference?  COURT:  I'm sorry.  What's the number again?  MACKENZIE:  1617T001.  That number appears just above Notch  Top Peak, which is just west of the Skeena River.  And  1  THE  2  MR.  3  THE  4  MR.  5  6  7  8  9  THE  10  MR.  11  THE  12  MR.  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  THE  20  MR.  21  THE  22  23  MR.  24  25  THE  26  MR.  27  28  29  30  31  32  THE  33  MR.  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  THE  42  MR.  43  44  45  THE  46  MR.  47 5405  J. Morrison (for Plaintiffs)  Proceedings  it should be highlighted on your lordship's copy.  Showing it to your lordship right here.  This is a  very large --  COURT:  I'm sorry.  I was looking at -- was Ernest Angus'  trapline east or west of the Skeena?  MACKENZIE:  East, my lord.  COURT:  East.  All right.  Yes, I have it.  MACKENZIE:  Now, my lord, I'm referring to that 1617T001.  COURT:  Yes.  MACKENZIE:  And records underlying Exhibit 24A for  Identification show that trapline as currently  registered to Charles Stevens.  And, my lord, we do  not have admissions with respect to the applications  relating to that trapline although they're in this  binder.  It's in this binder.  And your lordship could  see that's a very large trapline.  It's outlined in  west of the Skeena, and it goes way up into area C,  which is the Barker Creek territory.  Does your lordship have that?  COURT:  Yes.  MACKENZIE:  So, my lord, that's the same trapline that  covers up into area C.  Covers that whole area west of  the Skeena River including the foot of area A that  goes over across the Skeena.  It's not shown on here.  If your lordship will look at -- will see that on  Exhibit 378, map A.  COURT:  Yes.  MACKENZIE:  Then the southern territories, my lord, and  referring to the plaintiffs' document Exhibit 379, map  B, your lordship have that handy, what we're looking  at now -- the document we're looking at now in the  blue binder has the letters D, E, F and G on the lower  right hand corner.  COURT:  Yes.  MACKENZIE:  And this is another excerpt from trial Exhibit  24A for Identification showing the southern  boundaries -- southern territories in this affidavit.  COURT:  Yes.  MACKENZIE:  Does your lordship have that?  Now, my lord, first referring to area D, which is  the northern Tsabux area, T-S-A-B-U-X, the document  gives the trapline number for that area as 0607T014.  Does your lordship have that reference?  COURT:  Yes.  MACKENZIE:  Now, my lord, that is the trapline of Wilmer  Johnson, and that's the subject of one of the admitted  documents today, which is Exhibit 410.  1  2  3  4  THE  5  6  MR.  7  THE  8  MR.  9  THE  10  MR.  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  THE  21  MR.  22  23  24  25  26  27  THE  28  MR.  29  30  31  32  33  34  THE  35  MR.  36  37  38  THE  39  MR.  40  41  42  43  44  THE  45  MR.  46  47 5406  J. Morrison (for Plaintiffs)  Proceedings  1 Does your lordship have that reference?  2 THE COURT:  Yes.  3 MR. MACKENZIE:  Now, my lord, if your lordship would continue  4 that trapline curves around and goes down into area F.  5 THE COURT:  Yes.  6 MR. MACKENZIE:  Does your lordship see that?  7 THE COURT:  Yes.  8 MR. MACKENZIE:  Continues right around down to Kisgagas.  If  9 your lordship goes down to Kisgagas and just north of  10 Kisgagas you see the same trapline number.  That's  11 Wilmer Johnson's trapline according to this document  12 Exhibit 24A, and the document that was admitted,  13 Exhibit 410.  Does your lordship have that reference?  14 THE COURT:  Yes.  15 MR. MACKENZIE:  Now, my lord, the next area I wish to refer to  16 is area E and area G on the plaintiffs' map.  And  17 those areas are covered by trapline number 0607T009.  18 Does your lordship have that?  19 THE COURT:  Yes.  20 MR. MACKENZIE:  And, my lord, that's James Morrison's trapline,  21 or it was James Morrison's trapline according to the  22 evidence and to the document which is admitted today,  23 Exhibit 411.  24 THE COURT:  That has now been transferred to Elsie Morrison?  25 MR. MACKENZIE:  Yes, my lord:  The registered owner is still  26 recorded as Mr. James Morrison.  2 7 MR. RUSH:  We don't know that.  28 MR. MACKENZIE:  Sorry.  Just — I agree, we don't know that.  2 9 MR. RUSH:  We don't know that.  30 MR. MACKENZIE:  I'm sorry.  I'm just saying this is the  31 documents underlying this Exhibit 24A for  32 Identification, but yes.  33 Now, my lord, that completes my review of those  34 territories and the traplines that cover them.  35 THE COURT:  Yes.  Thank you.  36 MR. MACKENZIE:  Yes, my lord.  And the descriptions of the  37 traplines contained in the admitted documents, the  38 trapline applications correspond, I'm instructed, with  39 the boundaries shown on Exhibit 24A for  40 Identification.  41 THE COURT:  Yes.  42 MR. RUSH:  Well, I don't accept that.  That's the subject matter  43 of the whole dispute around the trapline map.  44 MR. MACKENZIE:  Well, my lord, that can be determined by  45 comparing the descriptions on the applications to the  46 areas set out on Exhibit 24A for Identification.  47 THE COURT:  Well, I take what counsel are saying to me is this, 5407  J. Morrison (for Plaintiffs)  Proceedings  1 that Mr. Mackenzie has stated as counsel the areas  2 described in this tab 1 of the blue book have been  3 compared with and correspond with Exhibit 24A for  4 Identification.  Exhibit 24A for Identification has  5 not been proven.  And all Mr. Mackenzie's statement  6 means is that physically they correspond.  7 MR. RUSH:  No problem with that.  They do physically.  He took a  8 photocopy off of 24A.  I don't have a problem with  9 that.  I think the supposition or inference I think  10 that was suggested in what Mr. Mackenzie was  11 submitting to you is therefore the lines on Exhibit  12 24A were a matched correspondence with the  13 descriptions given in the applications, and that I say  14 is the subject matter of dispute.  15 THE COURT:  I think unless Mr. Mackenzie can make a statement as  16 counsel that the metes and bounds descriptions in the  17 trapline applications conform to Exhibit 24A and are  18 transposed on to blue tab 1 it goes no further than I  19 stated a moment ago.  20 MR. RUSH:  Yes.  I agree with your lordship's summary.  21 MR. MACKENZIE:  And I agree.  22 THE COURT:  I think we have to be — I think we have to be  23 prepared to accept the statements of counsel in  24 matters of that kind, always being kept in mind that  25 counsel don't make bold and confident assurances about  26 matters of fact unless there's no possible dispute  27 about them.  The court frequently relies upon the  28 statements of counsel regarding physical matters of  29 that kind.  It may be that if counsel can't make that  30 kind of a bold and confident statement then, and I  31 take that phrase from the Cannons of Legal Ethics,  32 then it will have to be a matter of evidence.  33 MR. MACKENZIE:  My lord, to follow up with your lordship, Mr.  34 Rush rose to dispute my statement, and I wish --  35 THE COURT:  I'm not sure he disputed your statement.  I think  36 he's commenting upon the effect of the statement,  37 which is a matter of law, as I understand the colloquy  38 that's going on at the moment, if I can identify it  39 for you.  40 MR. MACKENZIE:  My lord, because this is a matter of some  41 importance to Mr. Rush, and your lordship referred to  42 metes and bounds, I cannot say confidently and boldly  43 that the metes and bounds exactly correspond with  44 Exhibit 24A.  The extent of my statement is that  45 having examined the descriptions myself they  46 correspond generally with the areas shown on Exhibit  47 24A for Identification which is at tab 1 of the 540?  J. Morrison (for Plaintiffs)  Proceedings  1 binder, and so I put this forward for orientation and  2 assistance to the court, and that's the extent that I  3 think this can be -- this evidence can be used.  4 THE COURT:  Just one moment, please.  Well, then my note is that  5 Mr. Mackenzie says he has compared the metes and  6 bounds descriptions in the registration documents and  7 trapline registration documents and says they conform  8 generally to Exhibit 24A in blue tab 1.  9 MR. MACKENZIE:  Yes, my lord, that accurately reflects my  10 position now.  11 THE COURT:  All right.  Are you tendering these two maps in blue  12 tab 1?  13 MR. MACKENZIE:  Yes, my lord.  Subject to the qualifications  14 that your lordship has noted I will tender those as  15 exhibits.  16 MR. RUSH:  Well, my position is, my lord, they don't need to be  17 tendered as exhibits.  You have Exhibit 24A in front  18 of you.  That might be a more convenient form for you  19 to deal with 24A, but I think you have that as an  20 exhibit already.  21 MR. MACKENZIE:  That's a good point, my lord, and so I would say  22 this map, Exhibit 24A, is already an exhibit in this  23 lawsuit for identification.  2 4 THE COURT:  Yes.  25 MR. MACKENZIE:  And so there's no need to mark these.  26 THE COURT:  Any information on 24A that is not — any  27 information on these two plans in blue tab 1 that is  28 not in Exhibit 24A?  29 MR. MACKENZIE:  Yes.  The markings corresponding with the  30 territories is not in Exhibit 24A, my lord.  That's  31 been taken from the Exhibit 378 and 379.  32 THE COURT:  Yes.  33 MR. MACKENZIE:  It's a combination.  34 THE COURT:  Well, I think that it may be useful at some time to  35 look at these two maps in blue tab 1, and for that  36 reason I'd like to have them as part of the material  37 at trial.  And as they depend on Exhibit 24A which is  38 only marked for identification these must also be for  39 identification.  They may be the tail that moves with  40 the hide of 24A, but I would like these two maps to be  41 marked as 24A-1 and 24A-2.  42 MR. RUSH:  For identification.  43 THE COURT:  For identification, yes.  44 THE REGISTRAR:  Which one is the first one?  45 THE COURT:  A, B, C.  46 MR. MACKENZIE:  Northern territory A, B, C, my lord.  4 7 THE COURT:  Yes. 5409  J. Morrison (for Plaintiffs)  Proceedings  1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  THE REGISTRAR:  Is?  THE COURT:  Is 2 4A-1.  THE REGISTRAR:  Okay.  THE COURT:  And 24A-2 for identification also.  Thank you.  (EXHIBIT 24A-1:  Map marked territories A, B and C)  (EXHIBIT 24A-2:  Map marked territories D, E, F and G)  THE COURT:  Can I ask Mr. Morrison, please, who is Ernest Angus?  A   Pardon me?  He's deceased long time ago.  I don't  know.  THE COURT:  Was he a Gitksan?  A   Gitksan.  THE COURT:  Do you know the clan or house?  A   No, I don't know.  I don't know his --  THE COURT:  All right.  How about Charles Stevens?  A   I don't know either.  I heard the name, but I don't  know the person.  There's many Stevens, but I don't  know which one.  THE COURT:  Is he deceased?  A   Deceased, yeah.  THE COURT:  And was he Gitksan?  A   Yeah, Gitksan.  THE COURT:  Do you know the clan or house?  A   No.  THE COURT:  All right.  Sam Morrison, of course, is your  brother?  A   Yes.  THE COURT:  And Wilmer Johnson?  A   Yes.  THE COURT:  Is he deceased?  A   No.  He's alive.  THE COURT:  Is he a Gitksan?  A   Yeah, Gitksan.  THE COURT:  And his house or clan?  A  Wolf clan.  Tsabux  THE COURT:  Tsabux.  MR. RUSH:  That's 65, my lord.  THE COURT:  Thank you.  Is the house of Tsabux or is he Tsabux?  A   Yeah, he's Tsabux.  THE COURT:  And that's 65, Mr. Rush?  MR. RUSH:  On the plaintiffs' list.  Yes, that's right.  THE COURT:  All right.  Thank you.  MR. MACKENZIE:  Yes, my lord, there are some other maps at the  front of tab 1 that aren't necessary now that we have  discussed the Exhibit 24A-1 for Identification. 5410  J. Morrison (for Plaintiffs)  Proceedings  Cross-exam by Mr. Mackenzie  1 THE COURT:  Want to remove them?  2 MR. MACKENZIE:  And I would ask that those be removed, my lord.  3 THE COURT:  All right.  Thank you.  4 MR. MACKENZIE:  And you're handing the ones that are not marked,  5 and there are others at the beginning of the tab, my  6 lord, with overlay.  7 THE COURT:  Yes.  Do you want to remove them?  8 MR. MACKENZIE:  Yes, please, my lord.  9 MR. MACKENZIE:  Now, my lord, and Mr. Morrison, I'd like to  10 refer to tab 3 which is Exhibit 411.  11  12 CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR. MACKENZIE CONTINUED:  13 Q   Now, Mr. Morrison, you signed that Exhibit 411, did  14 you?  15 A   Yes.  16 Q   And your brother Sam also signed it as a witness to  17 your signature?  18 A   Yeah, his name's on here.  19 Q   You recognize the signature there?  20 A   Yes.  21 Q   Now, Mr. Morrison, you applied for this registration  22 in 1946, correct?  23 A   Yes.  24 Q   And at that time you stated that, or did you state  25 that you had inherited the trapline?  2 6          A   No.  27 Q   Oh, so you say that this information on Exhibit 411,  28 "Number of years applicant has trapped line  29 inherited", that's incorrect?  30 MR. RUSH:  No, he didn't say that.  He said he didn't state  31 that.  32 MR. MACKENZIE:  Sorry.  33 Q   Would you say -- is that correct that you inherited  34 the line?  35 A   No.  36 Q   So you say the information on Exhibit 411 is  37 incorrect?  38 A  Which one is that?  39 Q   I'm referring specifically to the reference, "Number  40 of years applicant has trapped the line".  41 Does your lordship have that reference?  42 THE COURT:  Yes.  43 MR. MACKENZIE:  44 Q   Do you see that reference, Mr. Morrison?  Is that  45 wrong?  46 A  Well, the Fish and Wildlife put this on.  I didn't put  47 that on. 5411  J. Morrison (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Mackenzie  1 Q   I understand.  So you say it's wrong?  2 A   It's wrong because that's the way they do those things  3 in those days.  I didn't put anything.  I didn't say  4 that I inherit that.  That's just the holder at this  5 time.  This is what they forced us to do at that time  6 to register that trapline.  7 Q   Yes, I understand.  My question is is the information  8 there wrong?  9 A  Wrong.  10 Q   Thank you.  11 MR. RUSH:  You're referring here to that line, "Number of years  12 applicant has trapped line inherited"?  13 MR. MACKENZIE:  Yes.  14 MR. RUSH:  Thank you.  15 MR. MACKENZIE:  16 Q   And you testified that your father had this line  17 before you, did you?  18 A   Yes.  19 Q   Yeah.  I refer you to tab 4A.  20 Does your lordship have tab 4A in your lordship's  21 binder?  22 THE COURT:  Yes.  23 MR. MACKENZIE:  24 Q   Did your brother Sam Morrison have this line before  25 you did?  26 MR. RUSH:  The witness is being directed to a -- the first page  27 under -- well, the second, third page under tab 4A.  2 8 THE COURT:  Yes.  29 MR. RUSH:  Actually the third page, Application for Registration  30 of a Trapline dated March 22, 1941 Sam Morrison in  31 typewritten per no signature or anything on there.  32 THE COURT:  Yes.  The question is did your brother Sam have this  33 trapline before you did.  34 A  Well, I don't know anything about it.  35 MR. MACKENZIE:  Referring back to tab 4.  At the beginning of  36 tab 4 with third -- third page in there's a letter  37 dated June 14, 1946 from Mr. Muirhead.  Do you have  38 that reference, my lord?  3 9 THE COURT:  Yes.  40 MR. MACKENZIE:  41 Q   This letter, Mr. Morrison, says that this trapline was  42 formerly applied for by Sam Morrison and was turned  43 over to you.  You deny that Sam Morrison had the  44 trapline before you?  45 A   I don't know anything about this.  Only I know when I  46 signed the applicant for the other one.  47 Q   And at the bottom of that letter of June 14, 1946 Mr. 5412  J. Morrison (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Mackenzie  1 Mallinson, the Indian Agent, states that the line in  2 your name, James Morrison, was taken over from Sam  3 Morrison and says that you were down at the Cannery.  4 Were you down at the cannery in July, 1946?  Can you  5 recall that?  6 A   No, I couldn't remember that.  7 MR. RUSH:  Although it's a small point, my lord, that portion  8 was slightly misread by my friend.  It was, "I return  9 herewith application duly completed for the  10 registration".  It doesn't indicate that the line is  11 in the name.  12 MR. MACKENZIE:  Yes.  Perhaps, my lord, I should read that out  13 in response to my friend.  Yes.  "I return herewith  14 application duly completed for the registration of  15 trapline in the name of James Morrison which has been  16 taken over from Sam Morrison his brother."  17 Then referring to the page before that letter of  18 June 14 there's a map.  Still at tab 4, my lord.  19 THE COURT:  Yes.  20 MR. MACKENZIE:  There's a map, and in the centre of that map is  21 written "Morrison James".  And up in the upper right  22 hand corner of that map there's an indication of a  23 Shedin Peak.  24 Q   Do you see that?  Was your trapline just southwest of  25 Shedin Peak, Mr. Morrison?  26 A   I don't understand this map.  There's nothing on it.  27 Q   Fine.  Thank you.  So your evidence is that your  28 father had the line before you, is that correct?  29 A   Yes.  30 Q   Yes.  And your father was Simon Morrison?  31 A   Yes.  32 Q   Yes.  And who had the line before Simon Morrison?  33 A   I don't know.  34 Q   Okay.  Referring to tab 6.  Is that your signature at  35 the bottom of that document, Application for Renewal  36 dated June 16, 1976?  37 A   No, this is not my signature.  You compare it with the  38 other and see what's the difference on there.  39 Q   Were you trapping in 1976?  40 A   On -- I'm talking about this signature.  41 Q   I'm asking you another question.  Did you go out on  42 the traplines in 1976?  43 A  Well, I don't know where I'm trapping at that time.  I  44 don't go by the date.  When I'm trapping I'm trapping  45 any time when I feel like to.  46 Q   I'm referring to the document at tab 5.  I have the  47 original of that, my lord.  That document is dated on 5413  J. Morrison (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Mackenzie  1 the original March 12, 1976 and then there's a stamped  2 date March 15, 1976.  "To whom it may concern we give  3 James Morrison our permission to trap on our trapline  4 approximately 150 miles north of Hazleton.  The number  5 should be on our record there in it's Smithers."  6 Signed Gerry Samuel Morrison, Kelly Howard Morrison  7 and Samuel Morrison, Hazleton B.C..  Now, did you --  8 Gerry Morrison is Sam's son, is that correct?  9 A   Yes.  10 Q   And Kelly is Sam's son?  11 A   Yes.  12 Q   Yes.  And this letter refers to the northern trapline  13 at Chipmunk Creek, doesn't it?  14 A   Yes.  15 Q   That's in territory A.  And did you have this  16 letter -- sorry.  Did Gerry Morrison, Kelly Morrison  17 and Samuel Morrison send that letter in 1976?  18 A   They must be.  Where did you pick up this?  19 Q   Can you identify that letter?  Did you ask them to  20 send that letter?  21 MR. RUSH:  Well, just -- my lord, there are two questions there.  22 Maybe my friend can go one by one.  23 MR. MACKENZIE:  24 Q   Can you identify that letter?  25 A   I don't know.  I didn't trap at that time at that  26 year.  That's for sure.  27 Q   Did you ask Sam and his sons to send that letter?  28 A   I didn't remember asking anybody about that.  29 Q   Is that Samuel Morrison's signature?  30 A  Well, I don't know Samuel Morrison's signature.  31 Q   It looks as if they're all signed by the same person.  32 So you don't know anything about that letter?  33 A   No.  34 Q   No.  And you can't recall whether you were trapping up  35 at Chipmunk Creek up in 1976?  3 6 A   No, I didn't.  37 Q   Were you at Chipmunk Creek in 1976, do you know?  38 A   No.  39 Q   Now, can you agree with me, Mr. Morrison, I'm going to  40 refer now to map B, Exhibit 379, your trapline covered  41 areas E and G?  That is the Ska'yans't and the Gwin  42 dak territories, is that correct?  43 MR. RUSH:  Is the trapline description in front of the witness?  44 MR. MACKENZIE:  No.  I'm just asking him from his memory.  45 MR. RUSH:  From his personal -- from his memory.  46 MR. MACKENZIE:  Yes.  47 A  Which map you talking here? 5414  J. Morrison (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Mackenzie  1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  MR.  MR.  MR.  MR.  MR.  Q  A  Q  A  A  Q  A  Q  THE COURT  A  I'm talking about the map you have in your hand.  You talking about registered or tradition?  Registered trapline.  Geez, registered is not -- not true on this other map  you're talking about here.  It's made by fish and  wildlife.  It's straight line, and it covered any  areas and any other creeks, and they could state it on  this creeks here.  It's Luu Skadawit.  Okay.  You've got -- you've got the map Exhibit 378 in  front of you, and I've put Exhibit 411 at tab 3 in  front of you, and -- I'm sorry.  379.  You've got the  southern territories map B, 379.  I just want to clear  this one up.  Referring to your trapline application  which is dated June 7, 1946, that's Exhibit 411.  You see on this one here Luu Skadawit.  Yes.  You're referring to Exhibit 411?  Yes.  And can you agree with me that there's a reference to  Luu Skadawit on Exhibit 411?  Does your lordship have that reference?  :  Yes.  This is what you're telling me.  MACKENZIE:  Q   Sorry  Before you get into that can you answer that.  Can you agree on Exhibit 411 there's a reference to  Luu Skadawit?  A   Yes.  Q   And on Exhibit 411 it says that your trapline starts  at Luu Skadawit?  And Shedin Creek.  Yes, and Shedin Creek.  Right.  RUSH  A  MACKENZIE:  Q Now,  A   Yes,  MACKENZIE:  Luu Skadawit is Sperry Creek on map B?  this one here.  Does your lordship have that reference?  THE COURT:  Yes.  A   But this one is not right the way they draw it.  This  line here.  MACKENZIE:  Q My question to you is your registered trapline covered  areas E and G on this map that you have in your hands,  Exhibit 379, didn't they?  A They didn't cover this -- the distance the way they're  putting this line in here. See, these people didn't  know what the meaning of Luu Skadawit is, and they can  put it anywhere on those creeks because the creeks are  identical.  And if I show you two creeks you wouldn't 5415  J. Morrison (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Mackenzie  1 know this is what they're doing.  And they can put it  2 any -- anywhere.  3 Q   Your evidence is that a mistake was made in describing  4 the trapline in Exhibit 411, your application?  5 A  Well, they're talking about this.  If I tell you  6 something and if I point a creek for you now then you  7 draw it on the line.  That's what they're doing at  8 that time.  And they could put it anywhere in those  9 creeks.  This is what my answer is to you.  10 Q   Okay.  I understand now.  I'll just finish off this  11 series of questions with reference again to Exhibit  12 411.  The description of the trapline is, commence at  13 confluence of Luu Skadawit and Shedin Creeks and then  14 northerly along the east bank of Shedin Creek.  15 MR. RUSH:  Excuse me just a moment.  Mr. Morrison, Mr. Mackenzie  16 was reading from the application.  If you just --  17 THE COURT:  Mr. Morrison, can you show me where the confluence  18 of Luu Skadawit and Shedin Creek is?  19 A   It's right here.  20 THE COURT:  Well, where is Shedin Creek then?  Where is the  21 confluence?  22 A   Right here.  23 THE COURT:  Yes.  All right.  Thank you.  Sorry, Mr. Morrison —  24 or Mr. Mackenzie.  25 MR. MACKENZIE:  Just continuing, my lord.  26 THE COURT:  Going north along Shedin Creek.  27 MR. MACKENZIE:  28 Q   North along Shedin Creek, 13 3/4 miles to the first  29 creek on the east side north of Xsu wii wiltxwt.  30 A  M'hm.  31 Q   And that appears on your Exhibit 379, doesn't it, Xsu  32 wii wiltxwt?  33 A   Xsu wii wiltxwt, yeah.  Drain into Sicintine.  34 Q   That's east 5 7/8 miles to height of land between the  35 said height of land and Shedin Creek and Sicintine and  36 Shelagyote Rivers.  37 A  M'hm.  38 MR. MACKENZIE:  Does your lordship have these geographical  39 points on the map as we follow along?  4 0 THE COURT:  Yes.  41 MR. MACKENZIE:  Then southerly 8 miles along the west side of  42 said height of land, then westerly along the north  43 bank of Luu Skadawit Creek, 7 3/4 miles to point of  4 4 commencement.  45 Does your lordship follow that --  4 6 THE COURT:  Yes.  Yes.  47 MR. MACKENZIE:  — On Exhibit 379? 5416  J. Morrison (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Mackenzie  1 Q   And am I correct in summarizing your evidence as  2 saying the Fish and Wildlife Branch made a mistake?  3 A   Yes, on this one here.  All this.  Not just the first  4 one.  You look at the map that you show me it's not  5 right.  It's straight line.  It can't be.  And the  6 tradition line, you see it yourself here, this is how  7 it draws.  8 Q   Sorry.  You're referring to Exhibit 379?  9 MR. RUSH:  Well, he's also referring to the previous map that  10 was shown to the witness which I think was suggested  11 to him as a trapline map which had straight lines on  12 it.  13 MR. MACKENZIE:  Yes.  That's right.  14 Q   And tab 7 of the document book is Exhibit 407, and  15 there you agreed to transfer your line to Elsie  16 Morrison, didn't you?  17 A   Yes.  18 Q   Now, Elsie Morrison has never been on that territory,  19 has she?  2 0 A   No.  21 Q   No.  And there's no one trapping there now, is there?  22 A   I don't know.  Since she is the holder now she would  23 know herself what was on there.  24 Q   When was the last time you were in there?  25 A   I couldn't remember what year.  26 Q   You can't get in there by skidoo, can you?  27 A   No.  28 THE COURT:  Well, you're not sure when you were there, but what  29 was it five years, ten years ago?  30 A   Oh, we are hunting every once in awhile.  Last two  31 years we have been in there.  We been walking in  32 there.  33 MR. MACKENZIE:  34 Q   When is the last time you trapped in there?  35 A   I couldn't remember what year, but it's two or three  36 years anyway.  We not staying there when you go out  37 there.  You just go up and come back for hunting.  38 Same as trapping.  So you can't keep track.  Only time  39 keep track of the trapping when you got your fur and  40 you return back and that's on your slip.  That's the  41 only thing you can keep track with.  You can't keep  42 track with years, but also you got your fur returned,  43 that's what you got.  44 THE COURT:  Take the morning adjournment, please.  45  46  47 5417  J. Morrison (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Mackenzie  1 (PROCEEDINGS ADJOURNED)  2  3 I hereby certify the foregoing to be  4 a true and accurate transcript of the  5 proceedings herein to the best of my  6 skill and ability.  7  9 Peri McHale, Official Reporter  10 UNITED REPORTING SERVICE LTD.  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47 541?  J. Morrison (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Mackenzie  1 (PROCEEDINGS RESUMED AT 11:30)  2  3 THE REGISTRAR:  Order in court.  4 THE COURT:  I'm sorry gentlemen, Miss Sigurdson, Miss Russell  5 and gentlemen, I've got a minor emergency on my hands,  6 but it's not too serious, but I'm going to have to  7 hear an application to adjourn an assize trial on  8 Monday.  I've set it for two o'clock.  I'm sure it  9 will only be a minute or so.  The accused has  10 disappeared apparently, creates all sorts of  11 difficulties with juries and things like that.  All  12 right, thank you.  13 MR. MACKENZIE:  14 Q   Now, we were speaking about your trapline at  15 Ska'yans't before the adjournment; do you recall that?  16 A   Yes.  17 Q   And can you you tell us when you were trapping in that  18 area last, please?  19 A   That I couldn't remember.  It's about two or three  20 years, as I say, or four years.  It's just off and on  21 and we travelled so much back and forth in that area.  22 Q   So you say two years ago?  23 A   Probably three years.  24 Q   Three years ago?  25 A   I didn't know what exact date, but I was there four  26 years, three or four years, or five.  27 Q   Were you trapping there in 1985?  28 A   I couldn't say, I didn't remember exact date.  29 Q   So you can't recall whether you were trapping there in  30 1985?  31 A   I was trapping there some years ago, not specific date  32 that I can put on there.  33 Q   Were you trapping there since 1980?  34 A   This, as I say, I couldn't put the date on that.  I  35 remember some years that I have been in there.  36 Q   And were you trapping there before 1980?  37 A  As I say, I couldn't remember offhand.  I just don't  38 have -- I was in there back and forth.  39 Q   You can't recall the year when you were last trapping  40 in that area?  41 A   No.  42 Q   Do you recall whether you trapped in that area in the  43 1970's?  44 A   I should say that I don't know anything about the  45 date.  It doesn't concern me any date when I go  46 trapping.  47 Q   Can you recall whether you were trapping in that area 5419  J. Morrison (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Mackenzie  1 in the 1960's?  2 A  As I say, I -- if maybe so on that -- on the date, but  3 as I say, I wouldn't go with -- there's no numbers in  4 that, but I was in there some time ago.  5 Q   Yes.  Do you recall whether you were trapping there in  6 the 1950's?  7 A  Well, it's -- you know, it's too many things going on,  8 you can't keep track of all these things, you know.  9 You never know, you trapping back and forth, eh.  We  10 travel so many areas, you don't know what year that if  11 you're going to travel so much, you can't keep track  12 of what date, we're on one corner to another.  You  13 travel as you go along.  14 Q   Well, you said this morning that you can tell the  15 years from the fur returns; is that your evidence?  16 A   Yes.  17 Q   Yes.  Did you submit fur returns?  18 A  We sell it to the Bay.  19 MR. MACKENZIE:  Did you submit fur returns for this territory  20 that we're speaking about now?  21 MR. RUSH:  Maybe the questioner and witness are asking -- have  22 different things in mind when the use of the fur  23 returns is used.  The witness referred to sales to the  24 Bay.  I'm sure my learned friend is referring to a  25 document that is a known government document as a fur  26 return.  Maybe that can be clarified, it might help.  27 THE COURT:  All right.  You can perhaps avoid any possible  28 misunderstanding, Mr. Mackenzie, by putting it again,  29 please.  30 MR. MACKENZIE:  31 Q   All right.  You say you submitted fur returns?  32 A   Yes.  To the Bay.  33 Q   And what are those fur returns, what kind of documents  34 are those?  35 A   They're not documents, just a sale.  36 Q   I see.  You sold the furs to the Hudson's Bay Company  37 in Hazelton?  38 A  Anywhere, anywhere as high as -- you don't just sell  39 it in one place, you take it from one place to  40 another, wherever they can pay you higher.  41 Q   When was the last time you sold furs from this  42 territory that we're speaking about, the Ska'yans't  43 area E and G?  4 4 A   I can't remember.  45 Q   Did you sell furs in this territory in the 1980's?  4 6 A   I couldn't remember.  47 Q   Did you sell furs from this territory in the 1970's? 5420  J. Morrison (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Mackenzie  1 A I can't remember.  2 Q Did you sell furs from this territory in the 1960's?  3 A I couldn't remember.  4 Q Did you sell furs from this territory in the 1950's?  5 A I don't remember.  6 Q Do you know who Johnny Morrison is?  7 A No.  8 THE COURT:  I'm sorry, you don't know?  9 A Yes.  10 THE COURT:  Oh, you do know?  Thank you.  11 MR. MACKENZIE:  12 Q I beg your pardon, my Lord, I think we're at cross  13 purposes.  Do you know who Johnny Morrison is?  14 A No.  15 THE COURT:  Thank you.  16 MR. MACKENZIE:  17 Q Do you know who Lillian Morrison is?  18 A No.  19 Q Do you know who Herbert Morrison is?  2 0 A No.  21 Q And do you know who Charles Morrison is, or was?  22 A What's his Indian name?  23 Q I'm sorry, I don't know the Indian name.  What was the  24 name of your -- of Simon Morrison's father?  25 A Well, I'm asking you, you see you read that, and I  26 need to -- I need to know that.  27 Q Do you know the name of Simon Morrison's father?  28 A Yes.  2 9 Q What was his name?  3 0 A Sduutxw'mlax ha.  31 Q What was his English name?  32 A Charles Morrison.  33 Q And what was Charles Morrison's wife's name?  34 A I don't know.  35 Q Do you know who Charles Morrison's father was?  36 A No.  37 Q And you also testified that you don't know who had the  38 territory E and G, that's the Ska'yans't territory,  39 who had that trapline before Simon Morrison; you don't  40 know that?  41 A No.  42 Q Did your father, Simon, ever tell you who had the  43 territory before him on Ska'yans't area --  44 A No.  45 Q E?  4 6 A No.  47 Q My Lord, I'm handing to the witness a document, an 5421  J. Morrison (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Mackenzie  1 extract from an Attorney General of Canada document  2 4093.  I hand a copy to your Lordship.  That purports  3 to be a copy of a will of Johnny Morrison dated April  4 2, 1932.  Now, Mr. Morrison, in this document I put  5 before you Mr. Johnny Morrison appears to be saying:  6 I give to my daughter, Lillian, certain property in  7 Glen Vowell and to Herbert certain property in Glen  8 Vowell.  Now, you don't know Lillian or Herbert, do  9 you?  10 A   No.  11 Q   And then in the fourth paragraph Johnny Morrison says:  12  13 "My hunting ground near Gisgigash I will go to the  14 man who will help Herbert and Lillian with my  15 funeral expenses to the amount of $25.00 and  16 $30.00."  17  18 Now, do you know whether your father, Simon Morrison,  19 helped with Johnny Morrison's funeral expenses?  20 A   I never seen this before.  21 Q   Did your father, Simon Morrison, help with Johnny  22 Morrison's funeral expenses?  23 A   I don't know anything about this.  24 Q   Did your father, Simon Morrison, help with Johnny  25 Morrison's funeral expenses?  26 A   I don't know anything about this.  I said I don't know  27 about this document here.  28 Q   I'm asking you, did your father, Simon Morrison, help?  29 A   I said I didn't know.  30 MR. MACKENZIE:  Oh, okay.  31 MR. RUSH:  My Lord, I don't see the point in putting the same  32 question to the witness again and again without  33 perhaps shifting the context.  A document is placed in  34 front of the witness and asked to relate to the  35 document.  The witness is clearly trying to relate to  36 the document.  Now, perhaps the document can be taken  37 away from the witness or somehow contexturalizing it  38 by saying let the document stand alone and then put  39 the question separately, but I think it's a pointless  40 exercise to put the same question four times.  41 MR. MACKENZIE:  I'm prepared to rephrase the question, my Lord.  42 THE COURT:  All right, thank you.  43 MR. MACKENZIE:  44 Q   Just put the document aside, Mr. Morrison.  Can you  45 tell me from your knowledge, did your father, Simon  46 Morrison, help with the funeral expenses of Johnny  47 Morrison? 5422  J. Morrison (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Mackenzie  1  A  2  3  4  Q  5  6  7  A  8  Q  9  10  A  11  Q  12  A  13  Q  14  15  A  16  Q  17  18  A  19  Q  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  A  31  MR.  macke:  32  THE  COURT  33  34  A  35  36  THE  COURT  37  A  38  THE  COURT  39  A  40  MR.  macke:  41  Q  42  A  43  Q  44  A  45  THE  COURT  46  A  47  THE  COURT  Well, at that time I don't know what's going on at  that time.  I only know so much, that's what I know,  what I will tell you, so I wouldn't know about that.  Is your answer that you do not know whether Simon  Morrison helped with Johnny Morrison's funeral  expenses?  I don't know.  Did Simon Morrison ever tell you that he helped with  Johnny Morrison's funeral expenses?  Maybe he did, but he didn't tell me.  You've never heard of Johnny Morrison?  No.  And you never heard that he owned the territory at  Ska'yans't?  No.  No?  And you never heard that Johnny Morrison's  territory was given to your father, Simon?  No.  Now, in the third paragraph in this document dated  April 2, 1932 it reads:  "I give my trapline on Gravel Creek to Lillian and  Herbert together.  This is on the right-hand side  of the Skeena River.  Simon Morrison is to stay on  the left-hand side."  Now, Gravel Creek, that's Chipmunk Creek, isn't it?  And that's in the area A, that's Xsi maxhla saa  giiblax.  Xsi maxhla saa giiblax.  JZIE:  Yes.  Did your Lordship get that answer?  :  I'm not sure whether the witness agreed that Gravel  Creek is Chipmunk Creek.  Is it?  Yes.  That's Xsi maxhla saa giiblax, that's Chipmunk  Creek.  :  Or Gravel Creek?  Yeah.  We call it Xsi maxhla saa giiblax.  :  Is it ever called Gravel Creek?  I never heard about that.  JZIE:  What's the translation of Xsi maxhla saa giiblax?  In what?  Into English, what's that mean?  Well, Giiblax is sand.  :  I'm sorry.  Was there a word before sand?  Yeah.  Gibblax is sand.  :  Gibblax is sand? 5423  J. Morrison (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Mackenzie  1 MR. MACKENZIE:  My Lord, the witness is saying that the Gitksan  2 word Gibblax --  3 THE COURT:  I see.  4 MR. MACKENZIE:  5 Q   G-i-b-b-1-e-x, underline the X, is sand; is that  6 correct?  7 A   Yes, sand.  8 Q   Could also be gravel, couldn't it?  9 A  Well, depends, gravel is different kinds, eh, rocks  10 and things like that.  11 Q   Lots of rocks up in Chipmunk Creek, aren't there?  12 A  Well, not until that point where I pointed and to  13 where you can see where the --  14 MR. MACKENZIE:  Now we're referring to map A, Exhibit 378, my  15 Lord.  16 THE COURT:  Um-hum.  17 MR. MACKENZIE:  18 Q   The witness has that document before him now.  19 A   See over here.  20 Q   And the witness is now referring to the area above  21 Chipmunk Creek and above that indication of Prairie  22 Dog on Exhibit 378.  Does your Lordship have that  23 point on the boundary?  And you're saying that's where  24 the gravel and the rocks are?  25 A   Not rocks, sands.  26 Q   Sands?  27 A   That's why they call it Xsi maxhla saa giiblax.  28 Q   What about the rocks and gravel, where are they, if  2 9 anywhere?  30 A   No rocks, all sands here, maybe the odd boulders, but  31 you can't see it underneath the water.  32 Q   Lots of boulders in the creek?  33 A   It must be one there or maybe hundreds or maybe  34 thousands.  35 Q   Lots of boulders and rocks in that creek?  36 A  Well, always in the other creeks.  37 Q   Yes.  But there are in that creek as well, correct?  38 A   You see, this is why they call this Xsi maxhla saa  39 giiblax, all sand you can see inside the water, that's  40 where nice and shiny inside.  41 Q   Now, Simon Morrison had the territory at Ant gilek in  42 1936, didn't he?  43 A   Yes.  44 MR. MACKENZIE:  Yes.  That's the area in area A, west of the  45 Skeena River, that's on the left-hand side of the map,  46 Exhibit 378 when you look at it.  Now, were you aware  47 that — 5424  J. Morrison (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Mackenzie  1 MR. RUSH:  Just excuse me.  Were you asking the witness if he  2 only had the territory on the left-hand side; was that  3 the intent of the question?  4 MR. MACKENZIE:  5 Q   Yes.  Simon Morrison had the territory at Ant gilek on  6 the west side of the Skeena River in 1936, didn't he?  7 A   Yes.  8 Q   Yes?  9 A   He had this whole thing here.  10 Q   He didn't take over the west side until 1941, did he?  11 A   Yeah.  But he owns this.  12 Q   I'm sorry, I beg your pardon, I'll rephrase that  13 question.  Simon Morrison didn't take over the  14 territory A on the east side of the Skeena until 1941,  15 did he?  16 A   But he was trapping at that time.  17 Q   Yes.  Your testimony was that the territory A on the  18 east side of Chipmunk Creek was transferred to your  19 father, Simon?  20 A   Yes.  21 Q   Yes?  22 A   Sduutxw'm laxha.  23 Q   From Charles Morrison?  24 A   Yeah.  It doesn't mean where he's going to start  25 trapping.  26 MR. MACKENZIE:  I'm now referring to Exhibit 408 at tab 8 of the  27 blue binder.  We're not marking that document dated  28 April 2, 1932, my Lord.  2 9    THE COURT:  No?  30 MR. MACKENZIE:  31 Q   It hasn't been identified.  Exhibit 408, and this was  32 the day that Mr. Robinson, John Robinson agreed to  33 transfer his Meziadan Lake line -- trapline to you,  34 didn't he?  35 A   Yes.  36 Q   You were taking over the territory then at Meziadan  37 Lake?  38 A   I take over and I run and I already take over.  We're  39 not concerned about this register, but they do sign it  4 0 over at that time.  41 Q   Yes.  But you had taken over the territory and the  42 feast?  43 A   Yes.  44 Q   And you had -- you had taken the chief's name,  45 Txaaxwok?  46 A   Yes.  47 Q   And that's the same time that you transferred your 5425  J. Morrison (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Mackenzie  1 other trapline to Elsie Morrison; is that correct?  2 A   Yes.  3 Q   And passing over Exhibit 409, my Lord, at tab 9,  4 that's already been admitted.  And now, I want to  5 refer to Sam Morrison's trapline up in Chipmunk Creek,  6 Mr. Morrison, and referring to tab 10, my Lord.  The  7 first -- the third page past tab ten is an application  8 for cancellation dated March 22, 1941 for Lillian  9 Morrison, and it is unsigned.  But the document says  10 "Application is made" -- does your Lordship have that  11 reference?  12 THE COURT:  Yes.  13 MR. MACKENZIE:  14 Q  15 "In quadruplicate for cancellation of the  16 registered trapline of this Indian."  17  18 And I think it would say -- it says -- I don't have  19 the original of this, my Lord:  20  21 "A transfer thereof to Simon Morrison of  22 Hazelton, B.C."  23  24 And Mr. Morrison, I'm just showing you that.  25 Q   Now, did your father, Simon, take over the Chipmunk  26 Creek trapline in 1941, registered trapline?  27 A   I don't know, I never seen this before.  28 Q   Well, now put the document aside, please.  Did your  29 father, Simon Morrison, take over the registered  30 trapline at Chipmunk Creek in 1941?  31 A   I don't know anything about it.  32 Q   So you don't know whether your father took over the  33 registered trapline at Chipmunk Creek?  34 A   No.  35 Q   And you were trapping with your father?  36 A   Yeah, before that.  37 Q   In that area Chipmunk Creek?  38 A   Yeah, before that.  39 Q   You were up there in the 1930's?  40 A   Yes, '36.  41 Q   Did your father ever mention the name of Lillian  42 Morrison to you?  43 A   No.  44 Q   Do you know who the wife of Charles Morrison was?  45 A   No.  46 Q   Before 1941 your father was a member of Moses Steven's  47 line, wasn't he? 5426  J. Morrison (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Mackenzie  1 A   I wasn't aware of that.  I don't think so.  2 MR. MACKENZIE:  Did your Lordship get that answer?  3 THE COURT:  Yes.  4 MR. MACKENZIE:  5 Q   Do you know who Moses Stevens was?  6 A   It was not Moses Stevens.  7 Q   It wasn't?  Do you know who Charles Stevens was?  8 A   That's the same thing.  There's many Stevens in  9 Kispiox.  10 Q   You told his Lordship this morning that you know  11 Charles Stevens from Kispiox, right?  12 A   I know, but which one are we talking about, which  13 Indian name?  14 Q   We are talking about Charles Stevens from Kispiox who  15 had his line on the trapline on the west side of the  16 Skeena River.  Do you know that person?  17 A   I know there's one Moses -- I mean Charles Stevens at  18 Slamgeesh Lake, that's the only place I know where  19 he's trapping at.  20 Q   So you know Charles Stevens?  21 A   I didn't know him, but I know the man that --  22 Q   Did you know his father was Moses Stevens?  2 3 A   No, I didn't.  24 Q   Your father, Simon, never told you he was a member of  25 Moses Stevens' trapline?  2 6 A   No.  27 Q   Referring to tab 11, that's an application for  28 registration in the name of Simon Morrison dated March  29 22, 1941.  Now, your testimony is you were not aware  30 that your father, Simon, took over the Chipmunk Creek  31 trapline in 1941?  32 A   No.  33 MR. MACKENZIE:  No?  And referring to that document that — I'm  34 sorry.  That document is tab 11, that document has not  35 been admitted, but it's at tab 11, but just refer to  36 the geographical description of the trapline, and the  37 note at the beginning of that description says:  38  39 "Commence on the east bank of Duti Creek at its  40 confluence with the Skeena River."  41  42 Now, I'm referring to map A, Exhibit 378.  And can you  43 tell his Lordship where on map A Duti River is, or do  44 you know Duti River?  45 THE COURT:  Or Duti Creek?  46 MR. MACKENZIE:  47 Q   Or Duti Creek? 5427  J. Morrison (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Mackenzie  1 A   Duti Creek, I don't see Duti Creek here.  Duti Creek  2 was way up head of the Skeena.  3 Q   I'm pointing to a river on the base map of Exhibit 378  4 which is entitled "Duti River".  Is that where the  5 Duti River is?  My Lord, I don't know whether that  6 question is a proper question to be answered.  Do you  7 know that river is up there?  8 A  Well, I know it's Xsan that's coming down there.  9 Q   Did you know that your registered trapline extended  10 north of Chipmunk Creek?  11 A   No.  I'm not aware of that.  12 Q   And did you ever go trapping in that area A at  13 Chipmunk Creek with your brother, Sam Morrison?  14 A   Yes.  15 Q   Did you know that Sam Morrison's registered trapline  16 extended north to Duti River?  17 A   No.  I wasn't aware about that.  18 THE COURT:  I'm sorry?  19 A   I wasn't aware about that.  20 MR. MACKENZIE:  21 Q   I'm suggesting to you that the northern boundary of  22 the registered trapline of your father, Simon  23 Morrison, was not Chipmunk Creek, but it was Duti  24 River; and what do you say to that?  25 A  Well, we only go to this traditional boundary, this is  26 what we go by here, of traditional boundary.  As I  27 state back again with the fishing and wildlife and  28 D.I.A. was make all these maps and so on, it's full of  29 maps and you can't believe it, like what the first one  30 that you show me, nobody would understand that.  This  31 is where the confusion is, all these registered  32 traplines, you don't go by tradition.  You go by  33 tradition and then you have no problem.  34 Q   Yes.  I will ask you some questions about that, but  35 now I'll refer you to tab 13.  And that's a return of  36 registered trapline holder in the name of Simon  37 Morrison dated May 30, 1942, and I'm placing the  38 original carbon copy in front of you and showing it to  39 my friend.  Can you recognize your father's signature  40 on the bottom of that, either one of those, that  41 photocopy at tab 13 or the carbon copy that I'm  42 handing to you?  43 A   It's hard to see, you can't tell anything on it.  44 Q   All right.  Were you aware that your father made fur  45 returns for his trapline at Chipmunk Creek?  4 6 A   I don't know anything about that.  47 Q   You never heard? 5428  J. Morrison (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Mackenzie  1  A  2  Q  3  A  4  Q  5  6  A  7  Q  8  A  9  Q  10  A  11  Q  12  A  13  Q  14  A  15  Q  16  A  17  Q  18  A  19  Q  20  A  21  Q  22  A  23  Q  24  25  26  27  28  29  A  30  31  32  Q  33  34  35  A  36  THE COURT  37  38  MR. macke:  39  THE COURT  40  MR. macke:  41  Q  42  43  44  45  A  46  Q  47  Never heard it.  Never went with him to the Fish and Wildlife office?  No.  And on Chipmunk Creek you trapped Beaver there, in  that territory?  Oh, yeah.  And you trapped fish in that territory?  Yes.  You trapped marten in that territory?  Yes.  You trapped mink in that territory?  Yes.  You trapped muskrat in that territory?  Yes.  You trapped otter in that territory?  Yes.  You trapped skunk in that territory?  Yes.  You trapped squirrel in that territory?  Yes.  You trapped weasel in that territory?  Yes.  You forgot wolverine.  Wolverine, yes, thank you.  Sorry, my Lord.  Wolverine  is mentioned here, that's right.  Now, referring to  tab 14, this is Exhibit 412, 412 that is.  That's an  application apparently of your brother Samuel Morrison  dated April, 1962.  Is that Sam's signature on that  Exhibit 412?  Well, I couldn't tell.  You see, all the signatures  all different, you see even my name, somebody sign my  name on this one.  I'm showing you the original of that Exhibit 412 and  asking you whether you can agree with me that that's  Samuel Morrison's signature there?  I wouldn't agree with that.  :  Well, does it matter, Mr. Mackenzie, if the document  is admitted?  JZIE:  Yes.  The document is admitted.  :  We know who the signature is.  JZIE:  Thank you, my Lord.  I'm referring to the back of the  document now, my Lord.  Your testimony before has been  Kelly Morrison and Jerry Morrison are Sam's sons,  correct?  Yes.  And so I'll refer to Exhibit 412 in the geographical  description of that trapline and note that it 5429  J. Morrison (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Mackenzie  1 commences on the north bank of Duti Creek at its  2 confluence with Skeena River; do you see that?  3 A   Yes.  4 Q   Okay.  You weren't aware of that?  5 A   No.  6 Q   Now, whose territory is on the other side of Chipmunk  7 Creek?  8 A   That's —  9 MR. RUSH:  You mean the north?  10 MR. MACKENZIE:  11 Q   North of Chipmunk Creek?  12 A   North, that's Simgitgigenix.  13 MR. MACKENZIE:  What's the number on the plaintiff's list?  14 THE TRANSLATOR:  It's not on there.  15 THE COURT:  I thought this was Wii Gaak?  16 A   No, that's —  17 MR. MACKENZIE:  18 Q   We're talking about north of Chipmunk Creek?  19 A  Wii Gaak is just across from Chipmunk.  20 MR. RUSH:  Simgitgigenix is -- I think is the northern boundary  21 of Chipmunk Creek.  22 MR. MACKENZIE:  I'm talking about the northern boundary on the  23 eats side of the Skeena, my Lord.  24 THE COURT:  Oh, all right.  25 MR. MACKENZIE:  26 Q   Well, my Lord, without taking time, I think we have to  27 get the spelling for the reporter.  That chief that  28 you mentioned, which house is he in?  29 A   He's in Miluulak's House.  30 MR. MACKENZIE:  Okay.  We're going to have to get the spelling.  31 THE COURT:  I'm sorry, I've lost you.  I thought we were talking  32 about the area around starting at the confluence of  33 Duti Creek and Skeena.  We're not --  34 MR. MACKENZIE:  Yes, my Lord.  I asked the witness who owns the  35 territory of Chipmunk Creek.  Does his Lordship have  36 that reference?  37 THE COURT:  All right.  You're talking about east of the Skeena  38 then, are you?  39 MR. MACKENZIE:  Yes, my Lord.  40 THE COURT:  Oh, all right, just a moment.  41 THE COURT:  What are you giving me first, the chief's name?  42 THE TRANSLATOR:  S-i-m-g-i-t-g-i-g-e-n-i-x.  4 3 THE COURT:  Thank you.  44 MR. MACKENZIE:  The next piece of information was the house of  45 that chief, Miluulak.  46 THE TRANSLATOR:  M-i-1-u-u-l-a-k.  4 7 THE COURT:  Thank you. 5430  J. Morrison (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Mackenzie  1 MR. MACKENZIE:  2 Q   Now, this I have to refer also to Exhibit 412, and  3 again, Mr. Morrison, were you aware that Sam  4 Morrison's registered trapline did not go west of the  5 Skeena River?  6 A  Which one is that?  7 Q   I'm talking about Sam Morrison's registered trapline.  8 Do you know what I'm speaking about?  9 A  What page here?  10 Q   You have the correct page, Exhibit 412, and I'm asking  11 you -- first I'm suggesting to you Sam Morrison's  12 registered trapline was east of the Skeena River; is  13 that correct?  14 A  Well, I don't know.  It's all wrong with what we're  15 doing, it's way over to the Duti River.  16 Q   So you don't know where the registered trapline was?  17 A   No.  18 Q   Did you ever go trapping on that trapline at Chipmunk  19 Creek?  20 A   Yes.  21 Q   Yes?  Were you there in 1976?  22 A   No.  I couldn't remember a year that when I was there.  23 We went there all the time, I know.  24 THE COURT:  You're talking now about north of Chipmunk Creek?  25 MR. MACKENZIE:  I'm talking about the territory — the area of  26 territory A, my Lord.  27 THE COURT:  South of Chipmunk Creek?  28 MR. MACKENZIE:  Yes, my Lord.  And the trapline, my Lord,  2 9 extends north and south of Chipmunk Creek.  And  30 that's -- your Lordship can see that on exhibit --  31 THE COURT:  412.  32 MR. MACKENZIE:  Exhibit 24A1.  At tab 1 of the blue binder.  33 THE COURT:  2 4A1?  34 MR. MACKENZIE:  Tab 1 of the blue binder, Exhibit 24A1, my Lord.  35 THE COURT:  Yes, thank you.  36 MR. MACKENZIE:  Does your Lordship see area A of east of the  37 Skeena River?  38 THE COURT:  Yes, yes, I see it, slightly north of the Chipmunk  39 Creek.  40 MR. MACKENZIE:  Yes.  The Chipmunk Creek is not marked, but it  41 flows down from Chipmunk Creek.  42 THE COURT:  Yes.  43 MR. MACKENZIE:  See that, my Lord, it flows down into the Skeena  44 River.  4 5 THE COURT:  Right.  46 MR. MACKENZIE:  The Duti River is marked and highlighted on that  47 Exhibit 24A? 5431  J. Morrison (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Mackenzie  1 THE COURT:  Yes.  2 MR. RUSH:  The Duti Creek isn't.  3 MR. MACKENZIE:  Yes.  But Duti Creek is not, my Lord.  So my  4 Lord, my question relates to that registered trapline,  5 that's the trapline we've been speaking about in these  6 documents.  7 THE COURT:  Yes.  8 MR. MACKENZIE:  9 Q   Sam Morrison is the registered owner of that trapline  10 681T006.  Do you recall when the last time you were  11 trapping in that Chipmunk Creek area?  12 A   No.  13 Q   Were you trapping there in the 1970's?  14 A   No.  15 Q   No?  16 A   I said I don't know a specific date when I was up  17 there.  We don't keep track of the day when we were up  18 there, but we go up there every once in a while and  19 back on to certain territory.  20 Q   That's 100 miles north of Hazelton, isn't it?  21 A   Yes.  150 miles north of Hazelton.  22 Q   And when you last went in there how did you get there?  23 A  Walk in on the ice.  24 Q   Walked over the ice?  25 A   Yes.  1936, as I stated on there before, that's the  26 only thing I'm going to state on, 1936 is when we  27 travel on the ice.  We go up there ten days to go up  28 there and seven days to come back.  29 Q   That's right.  Did you walk up there on the ice in the  30 1960's?  31 A   I said I couldn't remember any dates, all I remember  32 back in 1936.  33 Q   Yes.  Can you recall whether you were trapping on that  34 line in the 1950's?  35 A   Not a year, back and forth.  36 Q   Were you there in the 1950's?  37 A   I could be there, but I didn't keep track of the  38 dates.  39 Q   So you can't recall?  40 A  Well, I can't recall, I don't keep track of the dates.  41 I mean if I ask you what you do in the last 50 years,  42 you wouldn't remember that, unless it's in front of  43 you, if you have it in front of you in order to know  44 that, what your question is.  45 Q   I'm sorry, yes.  Can you agree with me that you  46 weren't on that territory trapping in the 1980's?  47 A   I was there -- I wasn't trapping at that time, but I 5432  J. Morrison (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Mackenzie  1 was there in '85.  2 Q You flew in by helicopter, didn't you?  3 A Yes.  4 Q You weren't in that territory, were you?  5 A No, not trapping.  6 Q Before 1985, in the 1980's you were not trapping in  7 that territory --  8 A No.  9 Q Of Chipmunk Creek?  And can you agree with me the  10 1970's you weren't trapping in that territory?  11 A No.  12 Q And -- sorry?  13 A No.  14 Q You were not trapping in the 1970's?  15 A No.  16 Q And you were not trapping there in the 1960's?  17 A Well, in -- I'm just preparing for years that we're  18 saying, I couldn't remember offhand that question  19 there.  20 Q Okay.  You were there in 1985 -- I'm sorry.  You were  21 on a helicopter flight in 1985?  22 A Yes.  23 Q What is the last time you were in that area before  24 1985?  25 A Well, that's the last time I was there, in '85.  26 Q When were you there before 1985?  27 A Well, I couldn't remember that.  28 Q Can't remember?  Were you there in the 1970's?  2 9 A No.  30 Q Were you there in the 1960's?  31 A I said I couldn't remember that specific '60 you were  32 talking about.  33 Q Were you there in the 1950's?  34 A I said I couldn't remember.  35 Q Now, when was the last time Sam Morrison was in that  36 territory of Chipmunk Creek?  37 A I don't know, you have to ask him yourself.  38 Q Do you know if Sam Morrison was there in the 1980's?  3 9 A I don't know.  40 Q Do you know if Sam Morrison was there in the 1970's.  41 A I don't know.  42 Q Sam Morrison is your brother?  43 A Yes, my brother.  44 Q Do you know if Sam Morrison was there in the 1960's?  4 5 A I don't know.  46 Q Do you know if Sam Morrison was there in the 1950's?  4 7 A I don't know. 5433  J. Morrison (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Mackenzie  1 Q   Do you know if Sam Morrison was there in the 1940's?  2 A   I don't know.  3 Q   Do you know if Sam Morrison was there in the 1930's?  4 A   I couldn't tell you.  The only thing I can remember at  5 that time when we was with him in 1936, they're all  6 numbers those years you're asking me.  7 Q   The only thing you remember is 1936?  8 A  Well, it's from there on, and the different years that  9 are beyond '38 and so on back into certain territory.  10 Q   I'm going to suggest to you that Sam Morrison has not  11 been trapping in Chipmunk Creek for at least 20 years;  12 do you agree with that?  13 A  Well, maybe so.  You could ask him yourself.  14 Q   Okay.  You don't know that, though, do you?  15 A   I don't.  16 Q   I'm going to suggest to you that you haven't been  17 trapping there for at least 20 years?  18 A   Yes.  19 Q   That's true, isn't it?  20 A   Yes.  21 Q   All right.  And you will agree with me that the only  22 way to get into that territory for you and Sam  23 Morrison, except for the helicopter flight, was to  24 walk up there on the ice; is that correct?  25 A   No.  I don't think so.  26 Q   Is that true?  27 A   No.  You can walk there.  28 Q   You can walk up the telegraph trail?  29 A   Yes.  30 Q   And that's 100 miles from Hazelton?  31 A   One hundred fifty miles.  32 Q   One hundred fifty miles from Hazelton?  33 A   Yes.  You know why, because if you're going to have  34 hunting or trapping you've got to get to a territory,  35 whether it was in helicopter or cars or Skidoos or  36 anything, you still have to walk.  I'm still doing it  37 today.  I don't take any flights or cars or anything.  38 Q   And today you trap at Meziadan Lake?  39 A   Yes.  40 Q   And you drive along Highway 37 to get to Meziadan  41 Lake?  42 A   Yes.  Because the road is there and everybody was  43 using it, eh, and I got licence to drive on the road  44 and I got rights to drive on the road.  45 Q   Yes.  You have a driver's licence, don't you?  46 A   Yes.  I have a driver's licence and I pay for it and I  47 paid my licence. 5434  J. Morrison (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Mackenzie  1 Q   And you have a car?  2 A   I have a truck.  3 Q   You have a truck, yes.  Do you also have a car?  4 A  Well, I've just stated to you I have a truck.  5 Q   Do you have a car as well?  6 A   Yes.  7 Q   And you have a travel home as well?  8 A   No.  Anything to do with the hunting ground, eh.  9 Anything to do with it I would answer that.  10 Q   Now, your brother Sam is about 80 years old today, is  11 he?  12 A   I don't think so.  I don't think he is that old.  13 Q   He's quite old, though, isn't he?  He's blind you  14 said?  15 A   He's about eight years older than me.  16 THE COURT:  How many years older?  17 A   Probably eight.  I'm not sure what exactly, I'm just  18 guessing myself, but just figure for what my age is is  19 what I'm saying.  20 MR. MACKENZIE:  21 Q   Sam is blind now, isn't he?  22 A   Yes.  23 Q   And when did he lose his sight?  24 A   I couldn't remember a year when he was or when he was  25 on disability, but 15 years.  26 Q   About 15 years?  27 A   Yeah, probably.  So I'm not putting an exact date on  28 it, but he has a record with his doctor, I know.  29 MR. MACKENZIE:  Now, you testified that when you applied  —  30 THE COURT:  I'm sorry, Mr. Morrison, you were born in 1928, so  31 you're 59 years old, aren't you?  32 A   Yes.  33 THE COURT:  If your brother is eight years older, then he's only  34 68.  That's a long way from 80.  35 A   Yes.  36 MR. MACKENZIE:  37 Q   I was incorrect, my Lord.  I didn't mean to mislead  38 the witness.  Your brother is in his late 60's, isn't  39 he?  40 A  Well, around there.  It could be around, 68.  41 Q   Um-hum.  42 A   I think what you're referring to was some other  43 people.  I think it's -- I can see it where your  44 information has arised, there's some other signature  45 which I really didn't recognize.  46 Q   I just want to ask you now some general questions  47 about the traplines.  You testified the other day that 5435  J. Morrison (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Mackenzie  1 when you applied for the trapline at your registered  2 trapline you did it because they said they would  3 protect the trapline?  4 A   Yes.  5 Q   Yes.  And no one else would be able to go into the  6 trapline?  7 A   Yes.  8 Q   Yes.  And you also testified that you sold your furs  9 to the Hudson's Bay Company and other companies?  10 A   Yes.  11 MR. MACKENZIE:  That completes that series of questions, my  12 Lord.  13 THE COURT:  All right.  Do you want to start something new?  14 MR. MACKENZIE:  Yes, my Lord.  15 THE COURT:  Or do you want to adjourn until two o'clock?  16 MR. MACKENZIE:  Thank you, my Lord.  17 THE COURT:  What do you prefer?  18 MR. MACKENZIE:  If your Lordship wishes, this would be an  19 appropriate time to adjourn.  20 THE COURT:  We have four minutes if you can use the time.  If  21 not, we'll adjourn.  22 MR. MACKENZIE:  No, my lord.  23 THE COURT:  All right.  Two o'clock, please.  24 THE REGISTRAR:  Order in court.  Court will adjourn until 2:00.  25  2 6 (PROCEEDINGS ADJOURNED AT 12:30)  27  28 I hereby certify the foregoing to be  29 a true and accurate transcript of the  30 proceedings herein transcribed to the  31 best of my skill and ability  32  33  34  35  36 Graham D. Parker  37 Official Reporter  38 United Reporting Services Ltd.  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47 5436  J. Morrison (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Mackenzie  1 (PROCEEDINGS RESUMED PURSUANT TO ADJOURNMENT)  2  3 THE REGISTRAR:  Calling Delgamuukw versus Her Majesty the Queen  4 at bar, my lord.  5 THE COURT:  All right.  Mr. Mackenzie.  6 MR. MACKENZIE:  7 Q   Mr. Morrison, yesterday you testified that you  8 attended a meeting at Fort Babine?  9 A   Yes.  10 Q   Yes.  And that was after you took the name Txaaxwok?  11 A   I can't remember the years.  12 Q   Fine.  I'm just asking you the question.  You can't  13 recall if it was after you took the name Txaaxwok?  14 A   No, I couldn't.  There was many times I went to  15 Babine.  I don't know which meeting you're referring  16 to.  17 Q   Have you had many meetings with people at Fort Babine?  18 A   Yes.  19 Q   And have you had meetings with the people from Takla  20 Lake?  21 A   Yes.  22 Q   And at those meetings were you discussing the eastern  23 boundary of the Gitksan claims?  24 A   Yes.  25 Q   And you testified yesterday also that you are, or the  26 day before yesterday that you attended the All Clans  27 Feast at Burns Lake in April, 1987?  28 A   Yes.  29 Q   And you recall there were people at that meeting as  30 you testified from Takla Lake, is that correct?  31 A   Yes.  32 Q   Now, have you attended any other meetings relating to  33 boundaries of the Gitksan and neighbouring people with  34 people other than Gitksan people?  35 A   No.  36 Q   Have you attended any meetings with the Nisga'a  37 chiefs?  38 A   No.  39 Q   Have you attended any meetings with the Thaltan  40 chiefs?  41 A   I did went up to Thaltan, but just exchanged  42 information why I was up there.  43 Q   When was that?  44 A   I couldn't remember the year.  I couldn't remember the  45 year when I was up there.  4 6 Q   Who went with you?  47 A  With other tribal group is Ray Jones. 5437  J. Morrison (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Mackenzie  1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  THE  THE  MR.  And where is he from?  He's from Hazleton.  From Gitsegukla.  Gitsegukla?  Yeah.  Anyone else go up with you?  Mel Bevin.  I'm sorry.  Mel Bevin.  I didn't get that.  Mel Bevin.  MACKENZIE:  Q   That's a well-known name, Mr.  Where did -- Mel Bevin's  No.  Oh.  Where does he live?  He lives -- well, he lives in Hazleton that time that  I know, but I don't know where he comes from.  And who else was on that trip with you?  Just the three of us.  And where did the meeting take place?  Right in Iskut.  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  COURT:  A  COURT:  A  A  Q  A  THE  MR.  THE  MR.  THE  THE  MR.  Morrison.  passed away, hasn't he?  Q  A  Q  A  COURT  A  MACKENZIE:  COURT:  Oh,  MACKENZIE:  Q  I'm sorry.  Iskut.  I-S-K-U-T, my lord.  yes.  It's a well-known location.  Iskut is north of Tuudaa dii Lake?  No, it's north of -- north of Meziadan.  North of Meziadan Lake?  Yes.  And when you went up to exchange information you  exchanged information with Thaltan chiefs?  Yes.  Can you recall who was there from the Thaltan chiefs?  Well, only people that are members spoken was Alec  Dennis.  Alec Dennis.  Alec Jack.  Alec Jack.  I'm sorry.  Is that two people?  Yes.  Yes.  Thank you.  The other one's last name Jack, the other one's  Dennis.  MACKENZIE:  Q   And what was that information exchange about?  A  Well, something about the territory.  Just the story  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  COURT  A  COURT  A 543?  J. Morrison (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Mackenzie  1 that we are talking about.  It's not big issue.  Just  2 talking, that's all.  3 Q Did you tell a story about Meziadan Lake?  4 A No.  5 Q What did you say at that meeting, if anything?  6 A Well, we just talking and see what -- what he's  7 hunting.  We been talking about hunting.  8 Q Were you talking about the hunting grounds?  9 A Not particularly hunting ground.  10 Q Were you talking about the boundaries with the Gitksan  11 people?  12 A Not particularly.  13 Q Have you attended any meetings with Kaska Dene people?  14 That's Kaska, K-A-S-K-A, Dene, D-E-N-E.  15 A That's the one in Burns Lake.  16 Q And in Burns Lake they had Kaska Dene people there?  17 A Yes.  That's —  18 Q And they had some people there from Fort Graham?  19 A Yes.  20 Q And Fort Graham is northeast of the Tuudaa dii Lake,  21 isn't it?  22 A Yeah, east of that.  Two separate roads, Fort Graham  23 and Fort Ware.  24 Q Fort Ware is another group of Indian people?  25 A Yes.  26 Q And Bear Lake also -- I'm sorry.  At Burns Lake also  27 there were Carrier-Sekani people?  28 A Yes.  29 Q And Sekani people were the people from Takla Lake, is  30 that correct?  31 A They could be.  32 Q So did you attend any meetings with the Kaska Dene  33 other than at Burns Lake?  34 A No.  35 Q Did you attend a meeting, any meetings with the  36 people -- sorry.  I'll rephrase that.  37 Did you attend any meetings at Bear Lake to  38 discuss the boundaries?  39 A No.  40 Q Have you attended any meetings at Moose Valley?  41 A Yes, I attend that.  42 Q And Moose Valley is just south of Tuudaa dii Lake,  43 correct?  44 A Yes.  45 Q And do you recall that you were at Moose Valley in  46 1986?  47 A Yeah.  Could that be that date?  I only there once, 5439  J. Morrison (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Mackenzie  1 that's all.  2 Q   And the subject discussed at that meeting was the  3 boundary between the Gitksan and Dene people?  4 A   Yes.  5 Q   And Neil Sterritt Sr. was there?  6 A   Yes.  7 Q   And Alfred Joseph was there?  8 A   Yes.  9 Q   And Robert Jackson was there?  10 A   Yes.  11 Q   And at that meeting the Dene people told their --  12 their histories?  13 A   Yes.  14 Q   Yes.  And they told their histories of the area of  15 around Tuudaa dii Lake?  16 A   Yes.  17 Q   And did the Gitksan people tell their histories?  18 A   Yes.  19 Q   Was David Gunanoot there?  20 A   No.  I couldn't remember if was David there.  21 Q   And is it fair to say that the Dene people told  22 histories about their claims in the Tuudaa dii area,  23 is that correct?  24 A   Yes.  25 Q   And the Gitksan people told histories about their  26 claims in the Tuudaa dii area?  27 A   Yes.  Just talking about -- not really into the  28 history.  At that time they're just talking about the  29 boundaries, and they talk about different places.  30 What these people were talking about that's -- that's  31 people House of Nii Kyap speaking that time.  Only one  32 person is different.  William George is different than  33 the other people.  All the clan of Nii Kyap that spoke  34 at that time.  35 MR. MACKENZIE:  Do we have the spelling of the — plaintiffs'  36 spelling for Nii Kyap?  My lord, perhaps I could give  37 that.  38 MR. RUSH:  52.  39 MR. MACKENZIE:  40 Q   William George is from Takla Lake, correct?  41 A   Yes, is from --  42 Q   So the Dene people at that meeting at Moose Valley  43 told you about their claims to the area around Tuudaa  44 dii Lake and south of Tuudaa dii Lake, is that  45 correct?  46 A   Yes.  One spoke from the place you were talking about,  47 Fort Ware, but he said they're not prepared for that 5440  J. Morrison (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Mackenzie  1 meeting because the elders are not there at that time.  2 Only one spoke at that time.  3 Q And where is Fort Ware?  4 A That's east of that.  5 THE COURT:  East of Tuudaa dii?  6 A Yes.  7 MR. MACKENZIE:  8 Q Did you take any notes of that meeting?  9 A I don't.  10 Q You didn't have any notes?  11 A No.  12 Q Was that meeting taped?  13 A I don't think so.  14 Q Neil Sterritt Jr. was there, wasn't he?  15 A Yes.  16 Q To your knowledge did Neil Sterritt Jr. take notes of  17 that meeting?  18 A I'm not sure whether he take notes.  19 Q Can you tell his lordship which areas the Dene people  20 spoke about?  21 A These people from Nii Kyap, as I say, that's the only  22 one spoken, except William George.  23 Q And which areas did they claim?  24 A Well, they say that these areas belongs to them, that  25 place where we have meeting with.  26 Q At Moose Valley?  27 A That's Nii Kyap's House, the ones that spoke.  28 Q The Dene people said the Moose Valley belongs to them?  29 A Not Dene.  These Nii Kyap people are from Gitksan  30 people.  31 Q Yes.  The people who attended from Fort Ware and Fort  32 Graham said that the Moose Valley belonged to them?  33 A No.  The only one spoke -- as I say, I didn't recall  34 what his name if he mention, he ever mentioned his  35 name, but he didn't say anything.  He just say the  36 people not ready.  They know about that area.  37 Q Yes.  38 A But these people are not ready to tell anything at  39 that time.  40 Q But they told the histories of their house, didn't  41 they?  42 A Not them.  43 Q But the people from Takla did tell histories of their  44 house?  45 A Yeah.  One person that speaks is -- is William  46 Charlie.  47 Q Was it William Charlie or William George? 5441  J. Morrison (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Mackenzie  1  A  2  Q  3  4  5  A  6  7  8  Q  9  A  10  11  12  Q  13  A  14  Q  15  16  17  A  18  Q  19  20  A  21  Q  22  A  23  24  Q  25  26  A  27  Q  28  A  29  Q  30  A  31  Q  32  33  MR. RUSH:  34  THE COURT  35  36  37  38  MR. RUSH:  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  THE COURT  46  47  William Charlie.  William Charlie.  So William Charlie from Takla Lake  spoke about his people's hunting and histories in the  Moose Valley area?  Yes, that spot.  Not specific histories on that.  Just  little stories.  Name of the area.  Just exactly what  they doing at that time.  Is the area around Moose Valley --  In Moose Valley in the north and west and north only  spot we are talking.  Not specific history we are  talking.  But William Charlie is Gitksan people.  He's in Takla Lake --  He's in Takla Lake band.  And you've -- okay.  At that Moose Valley meeting did  the people mention what had taken place at Bear Lake  in 1985?  I wasn't there at meeting at Bear Lake.  No, I understand that.  There was reference to the  meeting at Bear Lake, wasn't there?  Not exactly.  Did they tell about the meeting at Bear Lake?  Well, they just mentioned Bear Lake at that time, but  they didn't say anything at that time.  And the people from Takla Lake also claim the area of  Bear Lake too, don't they?  People -- which, Gitksan or --  Takla Lake.  Or Carrier-Sekani?  Takla Lake band members.  The band.  Depends who you're talking about.  Yes.  Do you agree with me that the members of the  Takla Lake band claimed the area around Bear Lake?  Isn't this hearsay, my lord?  :  Well, not really.  Is it?  He's not proving facts  through the mouth of a third person.  He's saying what  position was taken by someone at a meeting he  attended.  If he were being asked that that would be another  matter, but he's asking about a band, and the band  presumably is a group of people, and presumably the --  somebody -- the inference is that somebody in the  group of people spoke at the meeting.  This witness  heard it and therefore this witness is able to say  what the band position is, and I say that's hearsay.  :  Well, it may be that there is some doubt about --  about who the speaker represented, but if for example  the speaker was the head chief of the band it might be 5442  J. Morrison (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Mackenzie  1 he who's speaking for the band.  I agree that there is  2 more specificity required.  I think the modern view of  3 the hearsay rule is to confine it in those cases where  4 somebody is proving a fact through the statements of a  5 non-witness.  I don't think when one is dealing with  6 something like a position taking a discussion that  7 that is proving a fact except the fact he said it, but  8 I agree with you there is a problem of agency.  You  9 might be able to clear that one, and maybe you won't,  10 Mr. Mackenzie.  11 MR. MACKENZIE:  Yes, my lord.  I didn't mean to ask what the  12 band's position was.  13 Q   My question is can you agree with me, Mr. Morrison,  14 that members of the Takla Lake band claim the area  15 around Bear Lake?  16 A  What you talking, the reserve?  17 Q   No.  I mean the hunting grounds around Bear Lake.  18 A  Well, the people that claim it it's their own hunting  19 ground they were talking about.  20 Q   Yes.  21 A   I just mentioned to you William Charlie.  22 Q   Yes.  He's from Takla Lake?  23 A   Yes.  24 Q   Thank you.  25 THE COURT:  And he was a Gitksan?  26 A   Yes.  27 MR. RUSH:  From the House of Wiigyet.  28 A   Yes -- or no.  That's not correct.  That's House of  29 Miluulak.  30 MR. MACKENZIE:  Did you get that, my lord, Miluulak?  31 THE COURT:  Not yet.  32 MR. MACKENZIE:  House of Miluulak have a number?  33 THE COURT:  M-I-L-U-U-L-A-K, I suppose.  34 MR. MACKENZIE:  Number 49, my lord.  35 Q   Now, the Sekani people also had hunting grounds around  36 Bear Lake, didn't they?  37 A  Well, Carrier-Sekani you say?  38 Q   Yes.  39 A  Well, there are people in Nii Kyap's territory they  40 call it.  People live in Fort St. James in the House  41 of Nii Kyap.  42 Q   Fort St. James?  43 A   Yes.  Who lives in Fort St. James, they're the ones  44 who say belongs to them.  That's the House of Nii Kyap  45 again.  46 Q   Yes.  47 A   That's Gitksan people. 5443  J. Morrison (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Mackenzie  1  Q  2  A  3  THE COURT  4  5  6  MR. macke:  7  Q  8  A  9  THE COURT  10  MR. macke:  11  Q  12  13  A  14  Q  15  16  A  17  Q  18  A  19  20  21  22  Q  23  A  24  Q  25  26  A  27  Q  28  A  29  30  Q  31  A  32  33  Q  34  A  35  Q  36  A  37  Q  38  A  39  Q  40  A  41  Q  42  A  43  Q  44  A  45  46  47  Q  Yes.  Not Carrier-Sekani.  :  I'm sorry.  I missed what we were talking about  there.  People in the House of Nii Kyap living in Fort  St. James claimed what?  JZIE:  The hunting grounds around Bear Lake?  Yeah.  :  All right.  JZIE:  After you took the name Txaaxwok did you attend a  feast with the Nisga'a chiefs at Gitwangak?  No, I answered that yet.  Were you aware of the feast that was held with the  Nisga'a chiefs?  No, I wasn't around that time.  Where were you?  I don't know where I was.  I could have been in  Vancouver.  I wasn't around, that's why I didn't know  about.  Notice was sent, I think, but I wasn't around  because I travel a lot of the time.  You travel quite a lot?  Yes.  And in what connection were you travelling, with your  business?  No.  I'm -- I'm travel everywhere I want to.  Yes.  And why were you in Vancouver at that time?  I in Vancouver visiting my friends.  Sometimes just to  get out of my hometown just like anybody else.  Do you visit Vancouver quite frequently?  Sometimes.  I don't remember whether I was here.  Go  to the PNE or, you know, join --  Are you still fishing?  Join our friends fellowship together.  Are you still fishing these days?  Yeah, sometimes.  You go down to Prince Rupert to fish?  Yes, fishing.  Do you have a boat down in Prince Rupert?  Yes.  Yes.  And how often do you go down to Prince Rupert --  I go down --  -- Each year?  -- On the first of July, first week of July, and  finished around end of August.  The fall fishing is  carry on some people, but myself I didn't go.  So you were engaged in the commercial fishery down in 5444  J. Morrison (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Mackenzie  1 Prince Rupert?  2 A   Yes.  3 Q   Would you say that fishing is the principal source of  4 your income?  5 A   Not really.  6 Q   Now, did you go to the Nisga'a feast in the Nass  7 Valley the next year after the Gitwangak feast?  8 A   Yeah, I went to Gitanshilkw.  9 Q   Is that in the Nass Valley?  10 A   Yeah, Gitanshilkw.  11 MR. MACKENZIE:  Yes.  Could we have a spelling for that, please?  12 THE TRANSLATOR:  G-I-T-A-N-S-H-I-L-K-W.  13 THE COURT:  What is that, please?  14 MR. MACKENZIE:  Sorry.  Go ahead.  15 A   Chief was what they call that weasal.  16 THE COURT:  It's a location, a place?  17 A   Location of the place where this village originally  18 native at that time.  19 MR. MACKENZIE:  20 Q   Is there an English name for that place?  21 A   Yeah, Canyon City.  22 Q   Canyon City.  And about a hundred Gitksan chiefs went  23 to the meeting?  24 A   Yes.  25 Q   And that meeting was hosted by the Nisga'a chiefs?  26 A   Yes.  27 Q   And there was dancing and singing at that meeting?  28 A   Yeah.  That's them, not us.  29 Q   Nisga'a chiefs —  30 A   Yes.  31 Q   -- Told their histories?  32 A   Yes.  33 Q   And they also sang their sacred songs?  34 A   Yes.  35 Q   And Nisga'a chiefs described their territories?  36 A   Not really.  They're telling about the story of  37 Txemsim.  38 MR. MACKENZIE:  Could I have a spelling for that, please?  39 A   Tsemsim is -- it's not a history according to this,  40 what you're telling.  41 MR. MACKENZIE:  Oh, we'll get the spelling and we'll — I'll ask  42 you more about that.  43 THE TRANSLATOR:  T-S-E-M-S-I-M.  44 MR. MACKENZIE:  That — have you got that spelling, my lord?  4 5 THE COURT:  Yes.  46 MR. MACKENZIE:  47 Q   That is different from an adaawk, isn't it? 5445  J. Morrison (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Mackenzie  1 A   Yes.  It's just a story that just like those people  2 from Carrier-Sekani speak up this and that.  It's  3 little -- it's not the history.  When you tell the  4 history you start it from the beginning and it's  5 ended.  It's got to be ended.  Not half way and it  6 stays there.  That's where the history is.  They  7 didn't start and stop somewhere.  It's got to go all  8 the way and it's ended.  But this is the way they  9 telling, stop go, up and stop awhile, and it's never  10 ended.  11 Q   So the Nisga'a chiefs told stories about different  12 places in their territory, is that correct?  13 A   Yes.  Different things they talking about.  Same thing  14 I was talking about, just part of those story, but  15 other territory which is not even related with these  16 histories all about in each territory.  17 Q   And the Gitksan chiefs responded and told some of  18 their histories?  19 A   Yes.  20 Q   Yes.  And the -- and was David Gunanoot at that feast?  21 A   Yes, I believe so.  22 Q   Yeah.  And Stanley Williams was at that feast?  23 A   I didn't really keep track with those people were  24 there.  25 Q   Albert Tait, Delgamuuwk, was at that feast?  26 A   The only people that I travel with at that time is  27 Kitwancool, but I know those Gitksan people.  That's  28 different presentation with the too groups there,  29 Kitwancool and Gitksan.  30 Q   You went to the meeting with the Kitwancool chiefs?  31 A   Yes.  32 Q   And one of those chiefs who was there with you was  33 Soloman Marsden?  34 A   Yes.  35 Q   And you recall that Fred Johnson was there?  36 A   That's different group.  37 Q   He's from Gitwangak, correct?  38 A   Yeah.  39 Q   He was there, do you recall that?  4 0 A   I couldn't remember that.  41 Q   The whole idea was to resolve the overlapping claims  42 in the border territories, wasn't it?  43 A   Yes.  44 Q   And at that meeting the Nisga'a people told about  45 their claims for the hunting grounds around Bowser  46 Lake, didn't they?  47 A   Yes. 5446  J. Morrison (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Mackenzie  1 MR. MACKENZIE:  Now, Bowser Lake we have seen.  And does your  2 lordship recall that Bowser Lake was on the map in the  3 green binder which was at tab 20 of volume 1 of the  4 green binder?  5 THE REGISTRAR:  Exhibit 383.  6 MR. MACKENZIE:  Yes.  Thank you.  It was Exhibit 383.  7 THE COURT:  Yes.  8 MR. MACKENZIE:  9 Q   And the Gitksan people claim hunting ground around  10 Bowser Lake, don't they?  11 A   Yes.  12 Q   And Bowser Lake is within the land claim area of the  13 Gitksan people, isn't it?  14 A   Yes.  15 THE COURT:  Are you saying this, it's within the area claimed by  16 the plaintiffs in this action?  17 MR. MACKENZIE:  Yes, my lord.  My lord, that can be seen from  18 trial Exhibit 5, and from schedule to the -- schedule  19 B to the Statement of Claim.  2 0 THE COURT:  Yes.  21 MR. MACKENZIE:  Which — of which I have a copy here, my lord.  22 THE COURT:  I'm only questioning it because it's just outside  23 the area claimed by the Kitwancool chiefs according to  24 Exhibit 383.  25 MR. MACKENZIE:  That's my understanding.  26 Q   Is that your understanding, Mr. Morrison?  27 A   Yes.  The boundary as stated where the Xsi maldit is.  28 Q   That's Surveyor Creek, right?  29 A   Yes.  30 THE COURT:  All right.  Thank you.  31 MR. MACKENZIE:  32 Q   And the Nisga'a people claim the Bowser Lake area  33 because of a treaty with the Stikine people, is that  34 correct?  35 A   I don't know about that Stikine.  36 Q   Do you know the people at Iskut?  You visited there,  37 didn't you?  38 A   Yes.  39 Q   The Nisga'a people had a treaty with the people from  40 Iskut, didn't they?  41 A   I don't know whether they do or not.  42 Q   But that's the basis of their claim that they  43 presented at the meeting, is it not?  44 MR. RUSH:  How can he answer that?  45 MR. MACKENZIE:  I'm sorry.  I just want to know whether they  46 said at that meeting --  47 MR. RUSH:  If they did isn't that hearsay? 5447  J. Morrison (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Mackenzie  1 MR. MACKENZIE:  Well, it's the position taken.  2 MR. RUSH:  Well, is my friend putting it in for the truth that  3 in fact that is what they claim, or putting it in, or  4 questioning on it for the purposes of saying that's  5 what they said?  It's unclear to me.  6 MR. MACKENZIE:  I'll start with that's what they said, my lord.  7 THE COURT:  All right.  You're talking now about the meeting  8 with the Nisga'a?  9 MR. MACKENZIE:  Yes, my lord.  10 THE COURT:  Do you know when that was?  11 MR. MACKENZIE:  I'm instructed it was after the Gitwangak  12 meeting.  13 Q   Is that correct, Mr. Morrison?  14 A   I wasn't there at the first meeting.  15 THE COURT:  When was the meeting with the Nisga'a people at  16 Canyon City?  17 A  Well, it was fall.  That's only thing I remember that.  18 I don't remember exact date on that.  19 MR. MACKENZIE:  I'm instructed it was October, 1984, my lord.  20 THE COURT:  All right.  Well, you're asking the witness now  21 about what was said by some Nisga'a chiefs at this  22 meeting at Canyon City which you say was in 1984?  23 MR. MACKENZIE:  Yes, my lord.  24 THE COURT:  You're suggesting it was 1984.  All right.  Go  25 ahead, please.  26 MR. MACKENZIE:  27 Q   And Neil Sterritt was at that feast, wasn't he?  2 8          A   Jr..  29 Q   Neil Sterritt Jr. was at the feast?  30 A   Yeah.  31 Q   And to your knowledge he made an audio tape of that  32 feast.  Do you recall that?  33 A   I don't know whether he did or not.  I didn't watch  34 people.  I was there for the feast not to watch  35 anything with videos going on.  36 MR. MACKENZIE:  I can tell your lordship that a tape appears on  37 the plaintiffs' list of documents.  I'll give your  38 lordship the number for that if your lordship requires  39 that reference.  40 Q   Now, the Nisga'a chiefs had a map of their territory  41 at the meeting at Canyon City?  42 A   I don't think they show anything.  Maybe they did, but  43 I didn't see anything at that time.  You see, what  44 happened that time you didn't mention that.  When they  45 have a feast and they have to down feather.  You know  4 6              what down feather means?  47 Q   Yes, we have heard that evidence. 5448  J. Morrison (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Mackenzie  Submission by Mr. Rush  What it means, it means to the people you invited, if  I invite you and sit in that feast and you got to  listen -- listen to our side.  Are you listening?  Yes, I am.  You listen to the feast.  That's why I was invited to  see what's going on there.  This is what they say down  feather.  You listen and your side not to make any  comment back.  You might just say yes.  This what it  means.  This is what they were doing to us at that  time.  They make a down feather and put it on to our  heads.  That means peace.  That we don't say anything.  You know what I mean?  Yes.  See, if I invite you and I put down feather on you  that means you have to sit back and listen.  Yes.  So will you agree with me that the Nisga'a  people still claim the Bowser Lake area, and that  matter hasn't been resolved yet?  Well, I don't know about that, but I'm just saying  this is what happened at that time, that's why we  didn't say anything.  As far as you're aware the Nisga'a people are still  claiming Bowser Lake hunting ground, aren't they?  Well, that's a hearsay -- requires a hearsay  response.  I object to that question.  :  I'm not sure it's hearsay for the reasons we have  mentioned, but there may be a distinction here because  this is not a plaintiff.  If he was a plaintiff I  think he could be expected to answer, but it's a  matter of uncertainty.  If he knows that they're  claiming it then it would seem to me he could be asked  about that.  It may be that the answer would be  hearsay in the sense that if X told them they were  claiming it it would be hearsay, but if he talked to a  Nisga'a chief and a Nisga'a chief told him they were  claiming the Bowser area then it seems to me it would  be quite admissible.  I can't see how.  No, I can't.  :  It's an admission.  No.  It might be probative in terms of X chief saying  that he on behalf, or in his interpretation the  Nisga'a people are claiming, or it might be admissible  if he said he was claiming.  The question is however  in respect of all of the Nisga'a people, of whom there  may be 2,00 or 50,000, that they're claiming it.  I  think unless there is some document, or if there is  some other means by which this witness would know that  1  A  2  3  4  Q  5  A  6  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  Q  14  A  15  16  Q  17  18  19  A  20  21  22  Q  23  24  MR.  RUSH:  25  26  THE  COURT  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  MR.  RUSH:  39  THE  COURT  40  MR.  RUSH:  41  42  43  44  45  46  47 5449  J. Morrison (for Plaintiffs)  Submission by Mr. Rush  1  2  3  THE  COURT  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  MR.  RUSH:  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  THE  COURT  33  34  35  MR.  RUSH:  36  THE  COURT  37  38  MR.  RUSH:  39  40  41  THE  COURT  42  MR.  RUSH:  43  44  45  46  THE  COURT  47  MR.  RUSH:  that it's hearsay in respect of the Nisga'a people,  and that's the form of the question.  :  Well, I think, Mr. Rush, I'm against you on that.  I  think it goes to the reputation of the -- of the  ownership of the land.  Ownership is based upon  reputation, and if there is a -- if there are people  who he has talked to who say we claim it then it seems  to me that is negative evidence refuting a contrary  reputation.  Well, that's precisely it though.  That is precisely  the danger of pursuing it, because you have heard on  the Gitksan side the positive evidence of the  reputation, and yet to negate that or lead to an  inference of negation of that you hear a statement  from any source, not just this witness, on the basis  of a similar type of reputation that it isn't so, or  there's a contrary claim, and I say that's worthless  evidence to you.  There may be a claim, and it may be  a claim that is advanced by the Nisga'a people on  their behalf by someone.  It's not, in my submission,  probative evidence to be taken from a witness in this  way about what he has heard from someone about the  Nisga'a people.  Now, if my friend is going to say -- if he's going  to pursue that the Nisga'a people have a history, and  it follows the type of reputation evidence that your  lordship has permitted, and that's quite a different  matter, but this witness in particular in respect of  this meeting hasn't said that there have been the kind  of histories or the adaawk told in respect of those  territories as you've heard about the Gitksan.  :  If there are specific statements made about a claim  to a territory then it's my view that that is  admissible evidence on the question of reputation.  But you haven't heard that.  :  Well, I think that's what Mr. Mackenzie is trying to  find out.  No, I don't agree, my lord.  The question was do you  know if the Nisga'a people have a claim, or still have  a claim.  :  Are claiming.  Correct.  But that's not the question that your  lordship has just posed.  Your lordship framed it in  terms of are there statements that people made in  respect that would support such a claim.  :  Semantically you may be quite right.  I don't think it's a matter of semantics, my lord. 5450  1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  J. Morrison (for Plaintiffs)  Submission by Mr. Rush  Submission by Mr. Macaulay  It's here the Gitksan chiefs are put to the proof of  the reputation.  And I say that the contrary evidence  of a contrary reputation in a general form such as  this cannot in any way lead to a negative inference to  be drawn about proof of their ownership of their  territories.  And certainly not in this way.  THE COURT:  Doesn't an adverse claim reflect upon a reputation?  MR. RUSH:  No, I don't think it does, because a claim is a  worthless thing in the air.  Anyone can make a claim  to anything.  What might be an adverse reputation or  adversely affect the reputation of the Gitksan chiefs  would be if there were contrary evidence called of  history, of reputation of authority, and of community.  The same tests that were required of the Gitksan.  Now, I say that any claim is worthless unless there is  something to back that claim up of a probative -- of a  probative kind that would lead your lordship to a  conclusion that there is an adverse right adverse to  the interests of the Gitksan chiefs.  THE COURT:  Thank you.  Mr. Macaulay, do you have any submission  on this?  MR. MACAULAY:  My lord, as I understand the exception to the  hearsay rule having to do with reputation is that the  evidence is admitted notwithstanding its hearsay  character which normally makes -- excludes it, because  first there is no other practical way of establishing  an ancient reputation, and secondly, because the  reputation evidence has to pass the test of general  acknowledgement as you call that.  In other words, the  plaintiffs here will have to show that it's generally  acknowledged by neighbours, by the population  generally that a house is entitled to a given  territory.  It's up to the -- those people challenging  the reputation -- it's open to the people challenging  the reputation to show that second characteristic  doesn't exist.  If for instance there has been a  challenge, take the instance of a neighbouring house  of the Gitksan where there's a dispute, and we have  some evidence of disputes over boundaries, that's  clearly admissible on the question of whether or not  the reputation evidence ought -- the alleged  reputation evidence qualifies as an exception to the  hearsay rule.  It follows that your lordship should  listen to and take into consideration in coming to a  decision on whether or not this evidence is admissible  consider whether there are -- there is evidence of  other people entered who challenge that reputation. 5451  J. Morrison (for Plaintiffs)  Submission by Mr. Macaulay  Submission by Mr. Mackenzie  1 And if this witness has met with the representatives  2 of a neighbouring nation he can be asked doesn't that  3 neighbouring nation dispute your -- your -- whatever  4 house it happens to be, your Gitksan claim to this  5 land.  And if this witness were to say yes, they  6 dispute it, or they did dispute it when I was there,  7 then that's evidence that your lordship will be  8 entitled to consider because it goes to the question  9 of reliability, because it goes to the question  10 whether or not there was general agreement in the  11 community.  12 THE COURT:  The problem I have with the evidence — I tend to be  13 with you up to this point, Mr. Macaulay, and the  14 question I'm having difficulty with is that the  15 conversation that he's describing is with a living  16 person.  Should not that living person be called to  17 give evidence rather than give it through a  18 second-hand source?  I'm not sure it's hearsay for the  19 technical reason I mentioned, but reputation is not  20 upon the speaker being deceased, because if the  21 speaker is alive shouldn't he be called?  22 MR. MACAULAY:  Yes, if the evidence is of a particular person  23 making a particular statement.  2 4 THE COURT:  Yes.  25 MR. MACAULAY:  But if the evidence is a neighbouring community  26 or another part of the Indian community clearly is  27 doing things --  2 8 THE COURT:  Yes.  29 MR. MACAULAY:  -- Inconsistent with what the consensus of the  30 plaintiff is trying to show.  31 THE COURT:  Their activities could certainly be proven.  You  32 wouldn't have to call them to prove their activities  33 if they could be proven through the witness in  34 cross-examination.  It seems to me it might make a  35 difference if this unnamed speaking person is alive  36 and could be called as a witness.  37 MR. MACKENZIE:  My lord, this did take place at a feast.  And as  38 your lordship will recall, and Mr. Morrison's  39 affidavit, and in several of the -- a lot of the  40 evidence we've heard today evidence has been given of  41 reputation of things that were said at the feasts.  42 And that is -- I think, your lordship has accepted  43 that as a particularly solemn forum in which  44 evidence -- at which statements made will be accepted,  45 in this culture which has an oral tradition will be  46 accepted as an exception to the hearsay rule.  47 THE COURT:  I haven't read my judgment for some time.  Doesn't 5452  J. Morrison (for Plaintiffs)  Submission by Mr. Mackenzie  Submission by Mr. Rush  1 it depend on deponents or the source -- the source of  2 the information being deceased and therefore not  3 capable of being called?  4 MR. MACKENZIE:  That's one — I think that's one category, my  5 lord.  But as Mr. Macaulay says we are talking about  6 ancient oral history -- ancient oral history of the  7 Gitksan and Nisga'a people, and so what is admissible  8 for the Gitksan people as ancient history as told in  9 their feasts should arguably be applicable also for  10 the neighbouring peoples who also have oral histories  11 and very solemn forums in which these matters are  12 discussed.  13 MR. RUSH:  Well, I find this an amazing argument on the part of  14 the defendants, because it seems to reverse the  15 positions taken back last May when we were arguing for  16 a wider scope to the admissibility of reputation  17 evidence.  But if I may say, I think that the element  18 of necessity with regard to reputation evidence is  19 certainly the key element with regard to who the  20 speaker of the information is, and if the person is a  21 deceased person obviously that is one of the features  22 of why the evidence should fall into the category of  23 reputation evidence.  24 But the second aspect of this is that my friend  25 Mr. Mackenzie takes the view that the Nisga'a people  26 have an equivalent culture and society in respects  27 that have been testified to you in considerable  28 detail.  You know nothing about that.  You know  29 nothing about the way in which the Nisga'a people  30 operate in a feast society, and I don't think that you  31 can draw conclusions that because there is a feast in  32 the Nisga'a -- among the Nisga'a people therefore it  33 follows that it has the same basis for authenticity  34 and authority as it does among the Gitksan.  35 And my third and final point is that underlying  36 the questions that were put to Mr. Morrison is the  37 supposition that some unknown speaker somehow had  38 authority to speak on behalf of all the Nisga'a people  39 and he was the bona fide representative of the  40 collective wisdom of those people.  Again, you don't  41 have any identified individual, let alone whether or  42 not the persons that were present and apparently spoke  43 at a time when Mr. Morrison could have heard anything  44 said were people that were heads of houses or chiefs  45 or in any way people who had a representative  46 capability of speaking with authority in the  47 community.  And it's for these reasons that I say this 5453  J. Morrison (for Plaintiffs)  Submission by Mr. Rush  Submission by Mr. Mackenzie  1 kind of evidence to this witness is completely  2 inappropriate.  That doesn't mean to say that I  3 disagree with the point that is made by Mr. Macaulay,  4 and that is that it might be this evidence can be  5 called, but it can't be called in this way.  6 THE COURT:  I have no doubt the evidence will be called, it's  7 just whether this witness can give it.  I'm going  8 to —  9 MR. MACKENZIE:  My lord, may I make one brief comment in  10 response to Mr. Rush's?  11 My lord, I did take a position as Mr. Rush said  12 that appears to be contrary to the position that was  13 our objection, but my point was that if the Gitksan  14 evidence is going to go in then this will go in also,  15 but the position of the Province, as your lordship  16 will recall, is there was an objection to all this  17 evidence going in.  Your lordship has ruled it will go  18 in now and be argued later.  19 THE COURT:  I'm not sure this evidence falls in that category.  20 It might.  21 MR. MACKENZIE:  That's the qualification that should be put on  22 the position I took, my lord.  23 THE COURT:  Well, I've lost track of my own memorable words, and  24 I don't remember what I said, but I'm going to  25 adjourn.  I'll deal with the matter as soon as we  26 resume.  Being Friday I may be a few extra minutes.  27 THE REGISTRAR:  Order in court.  28  2 9 (PROCEEDINGS ADJOURNED)  30  31 I hereby certify the foregoing to be  32 a true and accurate transcript of the  33 proceedings herein in the best of my  34 skill and ability.  35  36  37 Peri McHale, Official Reporter  38 UNITED REPORTING SERVICE LTD.  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47 5454  J. Morrison (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Mackenzie  Submission by Mr. Mackenzie  1 (PROCEEDINGS RESUMED AT 3:20)  2  3 THE REGISTRAR:  Order in court.  4 THE COURT:  Mr. Mackenzie, you're not going to finish this  5 witness today, are you?  6 MR. MACKENZIE:  No, my Lord.  7 THE COURT:  Well, can you carry on with something else?  8 MR. MACKENZIE:  Yes, my Lord.  9 THE COURT:  I would like to look again at the authorities on  10 questions of evidence where the reputation about title  11 can be rebutted by statements made by non-witnesses  12 inconsistent with the reputation, and I would like to  13 have a look at the authorities and see what it says,  14 and if it's convenient I'll deal with the matter first  15 thing Monday morning.  16 MR. MACKENZIE:  Thank you, my Lord.  17 THE COURT:  I will be glad to hear counsel if they can assist me  18 further.  19 MR. MACKENZIE:  My Lord, just for your Lordship's information,  20 I'm pointing to trial Exhibit 5, and the location of  21 Bowser Lake in the far north-west part of the land  22 claims territory.  23 THE COURT:  Yes.  Where is Meziadan Lake?  24 MR. MACKENZIE:  Meziadan Lake is just to the south, my Lord.  25 THE COURT:  All right, thank you.  It sure would help to see if  2 6 I had Mr. Macaulay's map.  27 MR. MACAULAY:  Just going to look to see, my Lord.  28 THE COURT:  Your map's over here, Mr. Macaulay.  29 MR. MACKENZIE:  30 Q   Now, I want to speak about the Burns Lake feast again  31 in April -- April 6th, 1987.  I'm going to draw your  32 attention to the Burns Lake feast again, Mr. -- do you  33 remember a Bear Lake Tom being at that feast at Burns  34 Lake?  35 A  Who's that again?  36 Q   Do you remember Bear Lake Tom being at that feast at  37 Burns Lake?  38 A   No.  I couldn't recall if there was any speaker or  39 that person.  40 Q   Do you recall someone saying that -- somebody saying  41 his father was Bear Lake George?  42 A   No.  43 Q   And that his mother said they had never seen Gitksans  44 in that area of Bear Lake; do you recall that being  45 said?  4 6          A   No.  47 Q   Do you recall a person from Takla Landing at that 5455  J. Morrison (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Mackenzie  Submission by Mr. Mackenzie  1 feast named Sam Hall?  2 A   No.  I couldn't recall of anyone.  3 Q   Do you remember him saying "The Gitksans are going too  4 far trying to take our land"?  5 A   No.  6 Q   Do you remember at that feast at Burns Lake someone  7 called Moise, M-o-i-s-e, Johnny, 81 years old?  8 A   No.  9 THE COURT:  I'm sorry?  10 A   No.  11 MR. MACKENZIE:  12 Q   Do you remember him saying Bear Lake is not for  13 Hazelton?  14 A   No.  What do you mean Hazelton, as the town of  15 Hazelton?  16 Q   Yes.  17 A   There's a town in Hazelton and it's not reserve land.  18 MR. MACKENZIE:  No.  19 THE COURT:  It doesn't matter, Mr. Morrison, you've said you  20 don't remember, so that's the end of if so far as your  21 evidence is concerned.  22 MR. MACKENZIE:  23 Q   Do you remember meeting Gordon Pierre at the Burns  24 Lake feast?  25 A   No.  26 Q   But you can agree with me that as a result of your  27 meetings at Moose Valley, Port Babine, Takla Lake, and  28 Burns Lake you were aware that there were differing  29 opinions as to the ownership of the lands on the  30 eastern boundary of the Gitksan land claim around Bear  31 Lake and Tuudaadii Lake, correct?  32 A  Which one are you referring to, the Moose Valley -- or  33 we've got point one meeting.  34 Q   I'm just going to say you went to all those meetings,  35 you were aware that there were differing opinions  36 about who claimed the ownership?  37 A   Yes.  38 THE COURT:  And your question was differing opinions about  39 ownership of Bear Lake or Bear Lake and Tuudaadii?  40 MR. MACKENZIE:  Bear Lake and Tuudaadii Lake area.  41 THE COURT:  Thank you.  42 MR. MACKENZIE:  43 Q   And you were personally familiar with the Bear Lake  44 area and the Tuudaadii Lake area because you flew in  45 the helicopter in those areas, didn't you?  46 A   Yes.  I think you have to refer that you're saying  47 that you deal with three lands, Babine, and you're 5456  J. Morrison (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Mackenzie  Submission by Mr. Mackenzie  1 saying three, that's why I want to see point one  2 meeting, because apparently the first meeting is the  3 other boundary, not upper boundary.  4 Q   Oh, yes.  You recall that there were discussions about  5 the boundary at Kotsine pass?  6 A  Where Miluulak's territory is.  7 Q   Do you know the word -- do you know the Kotsine River?  8 A   Yes.  That's where Miluulak's call Xsi ga malhlit.  9 That's referring to the first meeting.  10 Q   I think we need some spellings now.  K-o-t-s-i-n-e is  11 the creek?  12 A  What's the Indian name?  13 MR. MACKENZIE:  I don't know the Indian name, but I'm going to  14 point out to his Lordship where the Kotsine River and  15 the Kotsine Pass is.  This has come up before, my  16 Lord.  17 THE COURT:  On the eastern boundary?  18 MR. MACKENZIE:  South of Bear Lake, my Lord.  19 THE COURT:  South of Bear Lake?  20 MR. MACKENZIE:  Yes.  So that was an area — I'm sorry.  Did we  21 get the spellings?  22 THE COURT:  K-o-t-s-i-n-e?  23 MR. MACKENZIE:  Yes, my Lord.  24 THE COURT:  I didn't get that.  2 5 MR. RUSH:  No.  26 MR. MACKENZIE:  27 Q    Did you have a Gitksan name for that Miluulak area  28 around Kotsine Pass?  29 A    That's why I'm asking, I only know some names.  You've  30 got to point that out where you're talking about, I  31 don't know that English name.  If you can put any name  32 anywhere.  You have to use the Indian names to know  33 where you're talking about.  34 Q   Are you saying that you don't know about the Kotsine  35 Pass?  36 A  As I say, I don't know about that.  37 Q   Fine.  38 MR. RUSH:  Well, a Gitksan word was used and it was asked to be  39 spelled, and I think it should be spelled.  40 THE COURT:  Who used it?  41 MR. RUSH:  I think it was the witness.  42 THE COURT:  Oh, I didn't even know about it.  Do you remember  43 the Indian word you used or the Gitksan word you used  44 for Kotsine?  45 A   You see, this is different word and this is why I'm  46 asking, is that which --  47 THE COURT:  No.  We're asking you, sir.  It's said by your 5457  J. Morrison (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Mackenzie  Submission by Mr. Mackenzie  1 counsel, or counsel of the Plaintiffs, that you used a  2 word for Kotsine.  If you did can you give us that  3 word again, please?  4 A   No.  He was using it.  5 THE COURT:  No.  Not as I understand it.  6 MR. MACKENZIE:  Fine, my Lord.  Do you recall, Mr. —  7 THE COURT:  Well, we still don't have it.  8 MR. RUSH:  Well, my Lord.  I thought the witness referred to a  9 place, whether it was Kotsine or some other place, on  10 Miluulak's territory, and he gave the Gitksan word for  11 us.  12 THE COURT:  Can you give us that word again, please, Mr.  13 Morrison?  14 A   Xsi ga malhlit, that's the place I'm referring to on  15 Miluulak's territory.  16 THE TRANSLATOR:  X-s-i g-a m-a-1-h-l-i-t.  17 THE COURT:  I'm sorry.  M-a-1 —  18 THE TRANSLATOR:  H-l-i-t.  19 THE COURT:  L-i-d or t?  20 THE TRANSLATOR:  T.  21 THE COURT:  Thank you.  22 MR. MACKENZIE:  23 Q   Now, did you have a meeting with Neil Sterritt and  24 David Gunanoot and Steve Robinson after you became  25 Txaaxwok to discuss the eastern and western boundary  26 of the land claim?  27 A  What area is that?  28 Q   I beg your pardon, the eastern and northerly boundary  29 of the land claim?  30 A  Where does the meeting take place?  31 Q   I don't know where the meeting takes place, but I  32 understood what you discussed was this place, Kotsine  33 Pass and a place called dgild gila, d-j-i-1, new word,  34 d-j-i-1-a.  Do you recall that meeting?  35 A   No.  36 Q   Referring to tab 33 of the blue binder, my Lord.  Tab  37 33.  Now, these are Mr. Sterritt's notes after the  38 meeting; do you understand that, Mr. Morrison?  And  39 they say that you were at the meeting on June 1983,  40 and they say that Mr. Sterritt was there, David  41 Gunanoot, Steve Robinson, Robert Jackson, you, Lester  42 Moore, and David Green.  Now, do you remember that  43 meeting?  44 A  Maybe give me the place, maybe I would remember it,  45 but I don't remember it.  46 Q   Do you remember discussing a place, Dgil dgila?  47 A   This, the only place I heard Dgil dgila, a word is 5458  J. Morrison (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Mackenzie  Submission by Mr. Mackenzie  1 first meeting -- first meeting we had at Babine, at  2 that time first that you're referring first, you see  3 this is why I want you to go one, two, three, in order  4 to know what we are talking about, because there are  5 three of them, you can't put it together.  It's the  6 first one that deal with Dgil dgila and Ghaal sii  7 noahl loop.  8 MR. MACKENZIE:  Now, is that the name you just — let's get the  9 spelling for that, please.  There's a name written --  10 oh, we've got to get the spelling.  11 THE TRANSLATOR:  G-h-a-a-1 s-i-i n-o-a-h-1 1-o-o-p.  12 THE COURT:  Thank you.  13 MR. MACKENZIE:  Now, is that the name that's written beside —  14 on this page at tab 33 beside the Kotsine Pass.  I  15 think that should be pronounced for the witness.  16 THE COURT:  Well —  17 MR. MACKENZIE:  Can you pronounce that.  I ask you, Miss Howard,  18 whether she can pronounce the word that appears on the  19 document tab 33, my Lord, this one.  20 THE TRANSLATOR:  That's Ghaal sii noahl loop, the one he just  21 mentioned.  22 MR. MACKENZIE:  Did you get that, my Lord?  23 THE COURT:  Well, I know what they're talking about.  It's not  24 the same word.  25 MR. MACKENZIE:  Well, my Lord — sorry, I didn't mean to  26 interrupt you.  27 THE TRANSLATOR:  It's Ghaal sii noahl loop.  That's the same  2 8 one.  29 MR. MACKENZIE:  Did your Lordship get that comment from Miss  30 Howard?  31 THE COURT:  Yes.  32 MR. MACKENZIE:  Your Lordship of course is correct that the  33 spelling is different, but my Lord, there are  34 different spellings for these words with the same  35 pronunciation, as your Lordship is aware.  36 THE COURT:  Yes, all right.  37 MR. MACKENZIE:  38 Q   So did you discuss that place that Mrs. Howard just  39 mentioned?  4 0 A   Yes.  And that meeting at Babine.  41 Q   Yes.  And that's an area that there's some difference  42 of opinion about the ownership?  43 A  Well, they want to make sure I was just with them,  44 witness, because those people have a name on it,  45 they're the owners both sides, that's the reason why  46 they went over there.  47 Q   The Babine people? 5459  J. Morrison (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Mackenzie  Submission by Mr. Mackenzie  1 A   Babine people and Gitksan people.  2 Q   Yes.  Now, you flew over the Tuudaadii area.  The  3 Tuudaadii area was included within the land claims of  4 the Gitksan people of those days, wasn't it?  5 A   Yes.  6 Q   It was part of the claim in this litigation, wasn't  7 it?  8 A   That's Tuudaadii.  9 Q   Yes.  It was part of the claim in this litigation,  10 wasn't it?  11 A   Yes.  12 Q   And now it's outside the territory claimed in this  13 lawsuit, isn't it?  14 A   Could you ask me again?  15 Q   I'm saying Tuudaadii Lake is outside the area claimed  16 in this lawsuit now, isn't it?  17 A  Well, it is Gitksan.  18 Q   Yes.  The boundary of the land claims area was moved  19 south of Tuudaadii in 1987 in this litigation, wasn't  20 it?  21 A   I believe so.  22 MR. MACKENZIE:  Yes.  Now, my Lord, I have at tab 30C a  23 collection of documents, but I draw your Lordship's  24 attention to the last document at tab 31, just before  25 tab 31.  2 6 THE COURT:  The map?  27 MR. MACKENZIE:  Yes, my Lord, the map.  2 8 THE COURT:  Yes.  29 MR. MACKENZIE:  Yes.  Now, my Lord, this is a comparison of the  30 boundary on schedule B to the statement of claim at  31 the beginning of this litigation, and the boundary as  32 shown on schedule B to the statement of claim now, and  33 the boundary in 1984 was at Tuudaadii and included  34 Tuudaadii Lake, and since then it's been moved south,  35 and that's reflected by this composite map.  36 THE COURT:  Where is Tuudaadii Lake?  37 MR. MACKENZIE:  My Lord, there should be a number 2 pointing to  38 it.  39 THE COURT:  Oh, yes, I see, or I took that to be the river.  40 MR. MACKENZIE:  That's Tuudaadii Lake, my Lord.  41 THE COURT:  All right.  42 MR. MACKENZIE:  Yes.  The point of this, my Lord, is I have the  43 actual -- I have an excerpt from the actual schedules  44 also at that tab, and I have at -- and I refer that to  45 your Lordship at tab 30A.  I have the statement of  46 claim, a copy of an excerpt from the statement of  47 claim filed October 23, 1984, and an excerpt from the 5460  J. Morrison (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Mackenzie  Submission by Mr. Mackenzie  schedule amount of the metes and bounds description,  and your Lordship, I'll say to your Lordship that that  description has the boundary going north along the  north shore of Tuudaadii Lake and including Tuudaadii  Lake.  COURT:  Yes.  MACKENZIE:  And then an excerpt from the actual schedule  follows that metes and bounds description, and it's  difficult to see the name Tuudaadii because the  boundary goes right through it, but it's -- you can  see, my Lord, that if your Lordship will look to the  upper -- the north-east part of that land claim area  you will see just north of that, right at the north  finger you will see something called Tuudaadii Lake,  and Tuudaadii Lake extends down L --  COURT:  Are we still looking at 30C?  MACKENZIE:  Well, no, my Lord.  I'm referring your Lordship  to the -- perhaps this isn't necessary.  I'm referring  your Lordship to the actual documents of 30A, which is  taken from the schedule to the statement of claim.  COURT:  Yes.  MACKENZIE:  In 1984.  COURT:  Yes, all right.  I have that.  MACKENZIE:  The reason I'm referring this to your Lordship  is to show the basis for the composite map which I  would submit as an exhibit.  COURT:  And you're pointing out Tuudaadii Lake?  MACKENZIE:  Yes, my Lord.  COURT:  And it's right there at the end of the finger.  MACKENZIE:  The finger and extends down.  COURT:  Yes.  MACKENZIE:  And the boundary goes through it.  COURT:  Yes, all right.  MACKENZIE:  Q   Now, that was the situation in 1984, and then at 30B  the -- the amended boundary is shown.  This is an  excerpt from the schedule B to the statement of claim,  30B, and the boundary is quite aways south of  Tuudaadii Lake now.  Your Lordship will see Tuudaadii  Lake right in the middle of Spatsizi Plateau.  Can  your Lordship see that?  COURT:  Yes.  MACKENZIE:  You get a sense of how big Tuudaadii Lake is, my  Lord.  COURT:  I haven't found Tuudaadii Lake yet.  Just point to  Tuudaadii Lake, please.  MACKENZIE:  Right here, my Lord, in the middle of the page.  1  2  3  4  5  6  THE  7  MR.  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  THE  17  MR.  18  19  20  21  THE  22  MR.  23  THE  24  MR.  25  26  27  THE  28  MR.  29  THE  30  MR.  31  THE  32  MR.  33  THE  34  MR.  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  THE  43  MR.  44  45  THE  46  47  MR. 5461  J. Morrison (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Mackenzie  Submission by Mr. Mackenzie  1 THE COURT:  I see it.  2 MR. MACKENZIE:  In the middle of the — just before the — above  3 the words Stikine Plateau.  4 THE COURT:  It's got a square in the north, is it?  5 MR. MACKENZIE:  It's a very large lake, my Lord, you see it goes  6 from the south-east -- south-west at Tuudaadii Creek  7 all the way west and then turns north-west.  8 THE COURT:  Yes.  9 MR. MACKENZIE:  All the way up to — your Lordship can see goes  10 all the way up to just west of Thomas Peak.  The  11 point -- the reason I'm referring to that, my Lord, is  12 it's a good indication of orienting your Lordship to  13 the change in the boundary.  14 THE COURT:  Yes.  15 MR. MACKENZIE:  That's the point of having the comparison which  16 is at tab 30C.  17 THE COURT:  Yes.  18 MR. MACKENZIE:  But this comparison of course just shows part of  19 that change of boundary, particularly the part that  20 relates to this -- the territories in this affidavit.  21 THE COURT:  Where is the westerly end of Tuudaadii lake in 30C?  22 Does it extend beyond the word Tuudaadii?  23 MR. MACKENZIE:  Yes, my Lord.  24 THE COURT:  How far does it extend into the red area?  25 MR. MACKENZIE:  No.  It doesn't extend that far, my Lord.  26 THE COURT:  Does it extend beyond the T, west of the T?  Well,  27 it doesn't matter.  28 MR. MACKENZIE:  It's a little difficult to tell exactly, my  29 Lord, but I think it extends slightly beyond the edge  30 of the T.  31 THE COURT:  All right, all right, thank you.  32 MR. MACKENZIE:  Your Lordship, this may confuse matters a little  33 bit, if your Lordship looks at Exhibit 378 --  34 THE COURT:  Yes.  35 MR. MACKENZIE:  Your Lordship will see just above — just north  36 of the area B, north-east of area B you will see  37 Tuudaadii Creek.  3 8 THE COURT:  Yes.  39 MR. MACKENZIE:  And that flows into Tuudaadii Lake, which is I  40 think just maybe just peaking over the eastern border  41 of the map south of Tuudaadii Lake.  42 THE COURT:  All right, yes.  It's all very clear on your map, is  43 it, Mr. Macaulay?  44 MR. MACAULAY:  It is, my Lord.  45 MR. MACKENZIE:  So, my Lord, I wish to submit the comparison of  46 the two -- this area, the two statements of schedule B  47 and the two statements of claim as an exhibit, just to 5462  J. Morrison (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Mackenzie  Submission by Mr. Mackenzie  1 illustrate the difference in the boundary at that  2 location just at area B, the affidavit area B, which  3 is the subject of --  4 THE COURT:  Well, is that a matter of evidence, or is that  5 really in the nature of an aide-memoire?  6 MR. MACKENZIE:  Yes.  7 THE COURT:  So it needn't be marked as an exhibit.  8 MR. MACKENZIE:  9 Q   All right, thank you, my Lord.  So as a result of your  10 meetings the final boundary was drawn, wasn't it,  11 along the eastern part of the Gitksan land claim?  12 A  What part of the corner are we talking about?  13 Q   I'm saying there were differing opinions and someone  14 finally decided to put the boundary at a certain  15 position along the eastern edge of the land claim in  16 this litigation, didn't they?  17 A  Well, you mean in these two groups that you're talking  18 about?  19 MR. MACKENZIE:  Yes.  20 MR. RUSH:  My Lord, I can advise that it wasn't the witness that  21 has any knowledge about how this was drawn.  I mean  22 that's a graphic decision.  Perhaps my friend -- it's  23 been about 12 minutes since we've been talking about  24 the maps.  Maybe my friend can go back to the meetings  25 and if there was a decision taken then he can be asked  26 about that.  27 THE COURT:  Well, I suppose the question for the witness, Mr.  28 Mackenzie, is whether he had any part to play in  29 setting the boundary.  30 MR. MACKENZIE:  31 Q   Did you have any part to play in making the final  32 decision where to put the boundary for the Gitksan  33 land claim?  34 A   Not me.  35 THE COURT:  Who did?  36 A   Not me.  I was there just to witness those people.  I  37 didn't see anything, so I -- I wasn't made to make a  38 decision on the boundary.  39 MR. MACKENZIE:  40 Q   Who made the decision on the boundary?  41 A   The people themselves, both sides.  42 Q   Which people was that?  43 A   On both sides, the people you were talking about.  44 Q   Who decided that, the boundary between the --  45 A   Gitksan.  46 Q   Who decides the boundary between the Thaltan people  47 and the Gitksan people? 5463  J. Morrison (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Mackenzie  Submission by Mr. Mackenzie  1 A   The Gitksan people and the Thaltan people, it's up to  2 them to decide it and that's meeting them, and there's  3 something else to come out of that meeting, this is  4 what they have to decide, not just between you and I  5 that we decide.  6 Q   Who decided the boundary at Bear Lake?  7 A  Well, they're the ones that -- people both sides too.  8 You see, they have to read that in which I can tell  9 you how to put the boundary today, it's up to them to  10 put the boundaries, they're supposed to be.  11 Q   Now, the boundaries --  12 A  And the history -- on the history of each chief,  13 you've got to protect that land, and there's a history  14 behind all this territory.  This is how it would be  15 put about to the boundaries.  You can't just draw a  16 line to the boundaries and say this is my territory.  17 Q   Now — yes?  18 A   You've got to tell this what is inside your territory,  19 and it's not up to me to tell you the history about  20 that, it's up to each individual chiefs that they have  21 history, which I have no authority over without the  22 permission.  23 THE COURT:  No.  That's not right, Mr. Morrison.  If you were in  24 when the agreement was reached you could tell us about  25 it.  26 A  Well, they don't reach any agreement at that time.  27 THE COURT:  Somebody did somewhere.  28 MR. MACKENZIE:  29 Q   There was no agreement reached?  30 A  Well, not according to me.  I don't know anything  31 about this boundary.  This map is nothing on it, you  32 see, it didn't say anything on it.  33 THE COURT:  Well, were you present when any agreement was  34 reached about where to draw the boundary for the  35 purpose of this lawsuit?  36 A  Well, these people make it together, I didn't heard  37 anything about what they were saying that they agreed  38 together to make a boundary.  You see, if they agreed  39 with that I would have known today where the boundary  40 is.  41 MR. MACKENZIE:  42 Q   So there's different opinions about where the boundary  43 is?  44 A   Yes.  45 Q   Now, when you were at the meeting at Burns Lake did  46 you see this map which is behind you, Exhibit 101 in  47 this lawsuit?  Do you recall ever seeing that map? 5464  J. Morrison (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Mackenzie  Submission by Mr. Mackenzie  1 A   No.  2 Q   That shows the Carrier-Sekanni claim in the -- partly  3 in the north-eastern portion of the land claim area.  4 Do you recall ever seeing that map?  5 A   No.  6 THE COURT:  That's Exhibit 101?  7 MR. MACKENZIE:  Yes, my Lord.  I have an excerpt of Exhibit 101  8 in the blue binder at tab 32, and I refer your  9 Lordship to the second page at tab 32.  Now, Mr. -- my  10 Lord, I've taken the liberty of matching the areas,  11 territorial areas of Mr. Morrison's affidavit on this  12 excerpt from Exhibit 101.  Your Lordship can see  13 Tuudaadii Lake there in the upper right-hand corner.  14 THE COURT:  Yes.  15 MR. MACKENZIE:  Tuudaadii Lake —  16 THE COURT:  Is Tatla to'o and Tuudaadii the same thing?  17 MR. MACKENZIE:  No, my Lord.  Tatla to'o is north of Tuudaadii.  18 THE COURT:  I see.  They're both marked, I didn't see the second  19 one.  20 MR. MACKENZIE:  I point your Lordship south to Hoy Lake, H-o-y,  21 which is just in the corner there, just east of  22 territory A, just south-west of Tatla to'o Lake.  23 That's the point of some importance in this  24 discussion.  2 5 THE COURT:  Yes.  26 MR. MACKENZIE:  27 Q   And now, Mr. Morrison, this is the Carrier-Sekanni  28 claim, and it goes right through territory B, the Xsi  29 andap matx, Fort Creek territory.  I want you to look  30 at this, please, and just confirm that?  31 MR. RUSH:  I think the 378 should be put to the witness as well.  32 THE COURT:  Yes.  33 MR. MACKENZIE:  34 Q   Yes, thank you.  I'm putting -- oh, could we have  35 Exhibit 378, please, map A.  Now, Mr. Morrison, you  36 can see on this exhibit or this excerpt from Exhibit  37 101 that the Carrier-Sekanni claim starts just south  38 of Hoy Lake and it proceeds south right through Fort  39 Mountain or Andap matx, where -- do you see that?  40 A  Which boundary are you referring to?  41 Q   This boundary here.  42 A   This one?  43 Q   The black boundary.  It goes right through Andap matx;  44 do you see that?  45 A   Yes.  46 Q   And that's Fort Mountain, right?  47 A   Yes. 5465  J. Morrison (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Mackenzie  Submission by Mr. Mackenzie  1 MR. MACKENZIE:  Yes.  And it continues down to where the Mosque  2 River and the Skeena River meet; is that correct,  3 that's Xsi gwin hliiyuun?  4 THE COURT:  That's Mosque, isn't it?  5 MR. MACKENZIE:  Yes, my Lord.  Does his Lordship have that  6 point?  7 THE COURT:  Yes.  8 MR. MACKENZIE:  9 Q   And the boundary of the Carrier-Sekanni claim then  10 proceeds west of the Skeena down through the lower  11 part of Xsi gwin hliiyuun territory on the western  12 part of the Skeena and then crosses over the Skeena  13 south of Xsi gwin hliyuun territory; do you see that?  14 A   Yes.  15 Q   Yes?  Were you aware that the Carrier-Sekanni people  16 claimed part of this territory at Andap matx?  17 A   The first time I sign this map I didn't see that  18 before.  19 Q   Do you know the Carrier-Sekani have a claim based on  20 their hunting grounds?  21 A   I don't know anything about that.  22 Q   No?  Wasn't that described at Burns Lake?  23 A   Yes.  But not this one here.  24 Q   They -- fine, thank you.  25 THE COURT:  Shall we adjourn, Mr. Mackenzie?  26 MR. MACKENZIE:  Yes, my Lord.  27 THE COURT:  All right.  Is it convenient to inquire how we're  28 getting along?  29 MR. MACKENZIE:  Yes, my Lord.  I expect that we will be finished  3 0 on Monday.  31 THE COURT:  Yes.  32 MR. MACAULAY:  Well, could I bring up the question of — your  33 Lordship invited us to bring up the question of maps  34 again.  This is one of those cases where the map would  35 be very useful as a guide to show pretty clearly where  36 Tuudaadii Lake is, Tuudaadii Creek, all those land  37 marks in small compass so they're easy to handle, and  38 I've been waiting impatiently for my friend, Mr. Rush,  39 to tell us what his position is regarding the base map  40 and the two overlays that there are.  Perhaps this is  41 a good time to do that before this cross-examination  42 is finished in case I didn't know -- I don't know what  43 the position of my learned friend for the Province is  44 going to ask.  Perhaps I ought to have brought this  45 matter forward before the cross-examination began.  46 THE COURT:  Are you not in a position to deal with Mr.  47 Macaulay's map, Mr. Rush? 5466  1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  J. Morrison (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Mackenzie  Submission by Mr. Mackenzie  MR. RUSH:  I hate to depart from tradition, my Lord, but I'm  tempted to say I would like to see the matter go to  Monday, but I am prepared to say this, that we have  looked at the map and we unfortunately disagree with  the accuracy of the lines that are allegedly  portraying the various boundaries of the sequences of  maps that they purported to show, and certainly we  don't agree that these, as I'm sure you will be told,  helpful shaded areas in red and green and so on  represent what they say that they represent.  Now,  that's the qualification.  We've looked at these, and  we have considerable disagreement where the federal  cartographer says that certain of these lines go.  Now, there is a base map on this, and your Lordship  will see that it contains a number of the  English-named reference points.  It's convenient for  my friend of course because it's in English, but in my  submission we of course are leading evidence with the  Gitksan names on them, which the witnesses refer.  Subject to all those qualifications, I think it would  be something your Lordship might find, as you already  have with one previous map, as an aide-memoire.  THE COURT:  Well, I would be very happy to have the underlying  map, and Mr. Macaulay, is it a problem if I only have  it as an aide-memoire for the time being?  MR. MACAULAY:  That's a start, my Lord.  It's true, this is a  conventional -- the base map or underlying map is just  a conventional map, it does not have the Gitksan and  Wet'suwet'en names on it, but we -- our evidence,  since it's absolutely necessary, our evidence does  always get into translating names, determining where  they are.  THE COURT:  Well, I know that there's going to be a continuing  problem with -- with the English-Gitksan dichotomy,  and we have to live with that.  But speaking for  myself, I would be very glad to have a compendiously  sized map like this one, Mr. Rush, if I could just  have it as an aide-memoire.  For example, I'm having  serious trouble relating map A and B in juxtaposition  to Kispiox, for example.  I still don't know whether  they're in walking distances or hundreds of miles  apart.  I have difficulty relating how far apart it is  from Kispiox or Hazelton up to Meziadan Lake.  These  are all things if I had them all in one map it would  be very easy to get myself better situated.  MR. RUSH:  And I think the map is useful to that extent, and  what I'm saying of course is the other lines which 5467  J. Morrison (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Mackenzie  Submission by Mr. Mackenzie  1 purported to be lines of other maps rendered on this  2 one I would ask your Lordship to look at with some  3 circumspection.  4 THE COURT:  I will look at them with great suspicion, but until  5 I hear Mr. Macaulay's submission or evidence on it it  6 could be simply to prove the matter.  If that happens  7 I may need to, for my purposes, just the underlying  8 map, I would be very greatful if you start to use the  9 map as an aide-memoire.  10 MR. MACAULAY:  Could I explain again what the overlays are.  My  11 friend's comments concerning the two overlays, one  12 overlay is our cartographer's shrinking down of  13 Exhibit 5.  14 THE COURT:  Yes.  15 MR. MACAULAY:  Which is the plaintiff's document.  16 THE COURT:  Yes.  17 MR. MACAULAY:  Overlay 2 is a cartographic rendition of the  18 various descriptions in the statement of claim.  19 THE COURT:  Yes.  20 MR. MACAULAY:  Of the claim area.  And the colours show what has  21 been added and what has been subtracted, that's all,  22 but they don't pretend to -- because of the scale, for  23 one thing, that's a small scale.  2 4 THE COURT:  Yes.  25 MR. MACAULAY:  They can't possibly be as accurate as a map that  26 would be 1 in 10,000.  27 THE COURT:  Yes, all right.  Well, I will —  2 8 MR. MACAULAY:  They give you a general measure.  29 THE COURT:  I will be glad to have it with all its infirmities,  30 if any.  All right, apart from that, what do you see,  31 Mr. Rush, about the rest of the trial?  We only have  32 two days next week and then we're on for a week, and  33 then I think we go -- let's see, then we're off for a  34 week, I guess, then we're on for three and then off,  35 and then we're back for three, I think.  Where will we  36 be at the end of June?  37 MR. RUSH:  I'm hoping we will have completed the native  38 witnesses by the end of June.  I'm hoping that to be  39 the case, although certain things -- there are certain  40 problems in this respect, that not the least of which  41 one that I want to raise right now is we have -- we  42 have a situation where there is a witness who can be  43 called as soon as Mr. Morrison is completed, but he of  44 course is -- will have to be called down to Vancouver.  45 He's in Vancouver now, he expected to be called today,  46 and it looks as though his evidence won't be called  47 until Tuesday now, and then he will return and we will 546?  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  J. Morrison (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Mackenzie  Submission by Mr. Mackenzie  have to come back on May the 2nd.  Now, I only raise  all of this saying that it's a costly matter for us to  either keep a witness here or not to know with as  great as precision as we can whether he will actually  be called on Tuesday and then have to return.  Of  course, I would prefer not to have him called if  he's -- if he's -- I would prefer not to have him here  if he's not going to be called on Tuesday, and I guess  what I'm really saying is I would like as accurate an  assessment from my learned friends as to whether or  not he's going to be called on Tuesday.  THE COURT:  Would it help if we decide now that we will complete  Mr. Morrison and call no other witnesses until the  following Monday?  MR. RUSH:  Well, that's one option.  I'm not enthusiastic about  that option.  THE COURT:  Is there any advantage in calling him on Monday and  standing Mr. Morrison down, or is it -- is that just  the same problem with a different witness?  MR. RUSH:  I think it's the same problem.  THE COURT:  Well, I'm in your hands in this regard.  I will  be -- I'm willing to adjourn until the following  Monday when we finish Mr. Morrison, if that's  counsel's wish, or I will be glad to stay and carry on  until Tuesday and hope we can finish that, whatever  counsel thinks is reasonable.  MR. RUSH:  If my friend can give me as accurate an assessment as  possible how long it will take it might allow me to  make a decision on Monday.  THE COURT:  Perhaps when we adjourn they can give you their best  estimates.  MR. RUSH:  I also say this as part of the general problem of  estimating the length of time it's going to take in  order to complete the trial, other than that our hope  is we will finish the native witnesses by the  beginning of the summer.  THE COURT:  All right.  I have to raise a problem with counsel  that I would be glad to have your assessment of the  situation.  I'm sure you've all heard of the Zuber  Report, and I'm sure you're all aware of the serious  problems facing Canadian courts and the management of  trials and that sort of thing, and sometime ago I gave  a general commitment without the final commitment to  the Attorney General of Ontario that if possible I  would try to attend a three-day meeting he's arranging  on Canadian lawyers and jurists to discuss this  important question, which is set for three days in 5469  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  J. Morrison (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Mackenzie  Submission by Mr. Mackenzie  June, which are Monday, Tuesday, and Wednesday, which  we're planning to sit.  The Attorney General is really  anxious to have a representative from a court that's  well managed, and that is the impression which that  request was put to me.  I would not accept the  invitation if those three days made the difference of  finishing a class of evidence, so you think three days  is going to be crucial in June, or is it perhaps not  the time to do more than just ask the question, could  I leave that question with you.  It's the 20th, 21st  and 22nd of June, which is one of our sitting weeks,  and I'm not dying to go east at all.  Again, I would  go if it was convenient, a response to the request of  the Attorney General of Ontario, but I would like  counsel to think about it and let me know.  If they  think it's going to make a serious difference I would  not go.  MR. MACAULAY: My Lord, if at the end of June we may find  ourselves, who knows, with four or five days to  complete rather than three or two.  THE COURT:  Yes.  MR. MACAULAY:  I would hope that we could all make the necessary  sacrifices and arrangements to sit early in July to  finish off that lay evidence.  I would be very happy to do that, if that's  convenient to counsel.  That is actually a proposal that we had considered as  well.  I welcome that suggestion, if it is necessary.  Yes.  That would give us a better idea of whether or not  those three days would be essential.  I have no commitment for the summer until later in  July, when I have to go to another seminar in Ottawa  which I can't avoid, but I'll leave this, I don't need  to give an answer to the Attorney General immediately.  I will bring the matter up with counsel again perhaps  on Tuesday or something like that.  All right, thank  you, and I wish you all a very pleasant weekend.  THE COURT:  MR. RUSH:  THE COURT:  MR. RUSH:  THE COURT: 5470  J. Morrison (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Mackenzie  Submission by Mr. Mackenzie  1 (PROCEEDINGS ADJOURNED)  2  3 I hereby certify the foregoing to be  4 a true and accurate transcript of the  5 proceedings herein transcribed to the  6 best of my skill and ability  7  8  9  10  11 Graham D. Parker  12 Official Reporter  13 United Reporting Services Ltd.  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47


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