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Delgamuukw Trial Transcripts

[Proceedings of the Supreme Court of British Columbia 1988-04-21] British Columbia. Supreme Court Apr 21, 1988

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 5322  Proceedings  1 April 21, 1988  2 Vancouver, B.C.  3  4 THE REGISTRAR: Order in court.  In the Supreme Court of British  5 Columbia, this Thursday April 21, 1988, calling  6 Delgamuukw versus Her Majesty the Queen at bar, My  7 Lord.  8 I caution the witness and the interpreter you're  9 both still under oath.  10 MR. RUSH:  My Lord, just before my friend starts, there were two  11 matters that I wanted to raise with you, the first a  12 minor matter but it should be drawn to your attention.  13 Reference has been made to the Chief Wii elaast and  14 it's on your plaintiff's list number 72. It indicates  15 that the holder of that name is James Angus senior.  16 In fact, it's James Angus junior.  17 THE COURT:  Thank you.  18 MR. RUSH:  The other matter I wanted to raise with you concerns  19 the question of the view that we were going to urge  20 upon Your Lordship and our present thinking is that it  21 would probably take about two days, that is, for Your  22 Lordship, travel time and actual view time.  23 THE COURT:  Travel time from here or from —  2 4 MR. RUSH:  From Vancouver.  2 5 THE COURT:  Yes.  26 MR. RUSH:  Now, our thinking is that Your Lordship might  27 consider taking this view during the week off of June  28 the 6th and that we -- if you could consider this, and  29 if it's convenient to my friends, we could then begin  30 to make the arrangements with our learned friends in  31 terms of who should be on the view and making  32 arrangements for the flights.  33 THE COURT:  Yes, have you discussed this with your learned  34 friends and have you --  35 MR. RUSH:  Not -- not in the detail that I'm now raising it  36 about, but I thought it best first to raise the  37 question of the timing because I think our thought on  38 this was that we would prefer not to lose a trial day,  39 sitting trial day.  4 0 THE COURT:  Yes.  41 MR. RUSH:  And if it was convenient for Your Lordship to do this  42 during the week off then we should try it that week.  43 THE COURT:  Well, as presently advised, although I wouldn't want  44 to pronounce without just checking my diary, it seems  45 like a reasonable suggestion.  As far as I can recall  46 the time is available, but I'd -- I'd like to have  47 some general idea, and I'm sure your friends would, 5323  Proceedings  1 what you think I ought to see.  I don't have to know  2 that now, and I think your friends may think that  3 additional to what you think I should see there are  4 other things that they think I should see.  5 MR. RUSH:  Yes.  6 THE COURT:  Generally -- I'm generally disposed towards acceding  7 to the suggestion if counsel think there are things  8 that I ought to see, then it seems to me that -- that  9 that ought to be done, but I'll -- can you speak to  10 this Mr. Mackenzie at the moment?  11 MR. MACKENZIE:  No, My Lord, perhaps when we get a better  12 indication of what my friend has in mind.  13 THE COURT:  Well, what are you thinking about, Mr. Rush, in the  14 way of transportation?  Do you think of helicopters or  15 driving or --  16 MR. RUSH:  Well, I think that it might be a combination of both.  17 I'm not sure a helicopter would be the most  18 appropriate.  It might be a fixed-wing aircraft.  I'm  19 not sure.  I'd have to consult with the people who've  20 done this, but I think an overflight over a certain  21 portion of the territory and perhaps a portion of the  22 view would be by car.  2 3 THE COURT:  Yes.  24 MR. RUSH:  Even conceivably by boat I could see.  25 THE COURT:  I'm not going to take my own boat up there.  The  26 last time I took a major view of this kind was a  27 right-of-way for the B. C. Railway and we did do it by  28 helicopter and covered an enormous amount of territory  29 in very few days.  I think it would be useful if you  30 could prepare a bit of a programme for your friends  31 and let them see it and see what they think and what  32 supplements they want to add to it and I'm -- I think  33 I can, from what I see counsel's said in this regard,  34 I'd be glad to -- and I'll look at my diary at the  35 morning adjournment and see if there's anything that  36 is likely to intervene during that week, but you think  37 it's only a couple of days anyway?  38 MR. RUSH:  I think so.  Yes.  39 THE COURT:  All right.  Well —  40 MR. RUSH:  Depending on of course what my friends think.  41 THE COURT:  Well, Mr. Mackenzie, when do you think you'll be  42 able to respond -- well, I'm sorry the first thing is  43 to make sure the week is clear and I'll let you know  44 that this morning and after that you can -- you and  45 your friend can have a talk about what you think ought  4 6 to be included in the view and what arrangements you  47 think should be made. 5324  Proceedings  1 There is another problem which is a legal problem  2 that I'd like you to give some thought to and that is  3 that there are two views about views, if I can indulge  4 in that repetitious alliteration.  One is that a judge  5 takes a view for the purpose of better understanding  6 the evidence.  The other school of thought is that the  7 judge takes a view and what he sees is part of the  8 evidence.  I think the former is probably the  9 easier -- easier to manage conceptually, but I think  10 that we ought to be on common ground as to what we're  11 doing during the process.  Are we taking evidence, in  12 which case we should have a court reporter in  13 attendance and everything that's said should be  14 recorded and it becomes part of the evidence, or is it  15 something less formal and counsel are free to point  16 out things that the judge looks at without that being  17 part of the evidence in the case?  I'll ask counsel to  18 give some thought to that as well, and I'll speak to  19 you again after the morning adjournment.  All right.  20 MR. RUSH:  Thank you.  21 THE COURT:  Thank you.  Counsel, excuse me while I get down on  22 my hands and knees and see if I can find my pen.  It's  23 down here somewhere.  Here it is.  It's good for a  24 judge to get down on his knees once in a while.  25 All right.  Thank you.  26 MR. MACKENZIE:  My Lord, as a preliminary matter, I ask Your  27 Lordship to take Exhibit 377 and 378, the two  28 territorial maps.  2 9 THE COURT:  Yes.  30 MR. RUSH:  And My Lord I'm going to be referring to these  31 territories quite extensively in my cross-examination  32 as Your Lordship can appreciate, and My Lord, I would  33 request that Your Lordship mark the territories as I  34 have marked them according to the -- their paragraph  35 number, paragraph letter in the affidavit, and so I'll  36 go through that, My Lord, but in summary, the -- each  37 territory's referred to under a specific heading.  3 8 THE COURT:  Yes.  39 MR. MACKENZIE:  It goes A, B, C, D, E, F, G.  4 0 THE COURT:  Yes.  41 MR. MACKENZIE:  And, My Lord, I propose to identify the  42 territories for the ease of identification --  43 THE COURT:  All right.  44 MR. MACKENZIE:  — with those letters.  45 THE COURT:  All right.  46 MR. MACKENZIE:  And the affidavit I was speaking about, My Lord,  47 is Exhibit 376.  The affidavit's Exhibit 376 at tab 1 5325  Proceedings  1 and the map A is Exhibit 378 at tab 2, and map B is  2 Exhibit 379 at tab 3, so I'll just correct myself  3 there, My Lord.  4 THE COURT:  All right.  Which one are you starting with?  5 MR. MACKENZIE:  Well, I'm starting — having the affidavit,  6 Exhibit 376, in one hand, My Lord, and starting at map  7 A, Exhibit 378.  8 THE COURT:  Yes.  So capital "A" on Exhibit 378 is the northern  9 territory of Waiget known as the Chipmunk Creek area  10 is it?  11 MR. MACKENZIE:  Yes, My Lord, W-a-i-g-e-t.  12 THE COURT:  Waiget.  So that will be capital A.  Thank you.  13 MR. MACKENZIE:  And at page 4 is the — I'm going to mark the  14 exhibit also, My Lord.  15 The next heading is on page 4, and that's the  16 northern Wii minoosik territory.  17 THE COURT:  Yes.  18 MR. MACKENZIE:  And that's Fort Mountain, F-o-r-t.  19 THE COURT:  That's B?  20 MR. MACKENZIE:  That's B.  21 MR. RUSH:  It's called Fort Creek.  22 THE COURT:  Fort Creek.  23 MR. MACKENZIE:  Yes.  I'll just confirm that with Mr. —  24 THE COURT:  Now, that territory extends both east and — or  25 rather is on both sides of the Skeena is it not?  26 MR. MACKENZIE:  Yes, My Lord, it has a finger pointing down the  27 Skeena.  2 8 THE COURT:  Yes, that's right.  29 MR. MACKENZIE:  And Your Lordship will recall that Waiget's  30 territory A has a toe extending west -- west over the  31 Skeena.  32 THE COURT:  Yes.  All right.  33 MR. MACKENZIE:  Then on page 6 of the affidavit, Exhibit 376,  34 this is the northern Wii gaak --  35 THE COURT:  Yes.  36 MR. MACKENZIE:  — territory.  37 THE COURT:  That's only on the west side of the Skeena?  38 MR. MACKENZIE:  Yes, according to Exhibit 378.  39 THE COURT:  I see.  40 MR. MACKENZIE:  And, My Lord, that territory is referred in the  41 affidavit as Barker Creek territory.  You see that, My  42 Lord?  4 3 THE COURT:  Yes.  44 MR. MACKENZIE:  That's the northern creek — northern boundary.  45 And, My Lord, while you're looking at that territory,  46 perhaps I could refer you to Foster Peak which is in  47 the lower south -- 5326  Proceedings  1 THE COURT:  Yes.  2 MR. MACKENZIE:  — east corner of that territory, so that is the  3 northern territories.  4 THE COURT:  Yes.  5 MR. MACKENZIE:  Now, I'll mark the witness' copy.  6 Now, referring to the southern territories, map B,  7 Exhibit 379, capital D is the northern Tsabux,  8 T-s-a-b-u-x, territory.  9 THE COURT:  That's the small one, small circular one?  10 MR. MACKENZIE:  Yes, My Lord.  11 THE COURT:  All right.  So that's D.  12 MR. MACKENZIE:  That's D.  And because that's near the Sicintine  13 River I sometimes call that the Sicintine territory.  14 Sicintine River is just, as Your Lordship will recall,  15 just to the east of that territory D.  You can see  16 that running down Tsabux.  17 THE COURT:  That's where G is?  18 MR. MACKENZIE:  If we put the G on that location.  19 THE COURT:  That's the Sicintine River is it?  20 MR. MACKENZIE:  Yes.  And on the page 9 of the affidavit, the  21 next territory is the southern Waiget, W-a-i-g-e-t,  22 territory and that will be E.  If Your Lordship looks  23 at that, Your Lordship will see that the southern  24 boundary of that territory E is Rosenthal Creek.  2 5 THE COURT:  Yes.  26 MR. MACKENZIE:  You see that on the base map.  And page 11, the  27 next territory, is a large territory, it's called  28 Shelf Ridge territory.  2 9 THE COURT:  Yes.  30 MR. MACKENZIE:  And it extends from Kisgagas all the way up to  31 Dam Similoo Lake.  32 THE COURT:  That's F?  33 MR. MACKENZIE:  F, and that's on both sides of Shedin Creek.  34 It's on the west side of Shedin Creek and then it  35 extends over onto the east side of Shedin Creek.  3 6 THE COURT:  Yes.  37 MR. MACKENZIE:  And finally on page 14 of the paragraph the  38 final territory is Gwin dak, G-w-i-n d-a-k, and that's  39 G.  4 0 Now, My Lord, we already have a G up in the  41 upper --  42 THE COURT:  Yes.  43 MR. MACKENZIE:  — right-hand corner.  44 THE COURT:  It appears to be a G with a circle around it.  45 MR. MACKENZIE:  Yes.  4 6 THE COURT:  And that does not include this common hunting area?  47 MR. MACKENZIE:  Well, My Lord, I think the evidence is that the 5327  Proceedings  1 common hunting area is owned by Tsabux, but he's  2 agreed to allow the common hunting.  3 THE COURT:  Yes.  All right.  4 MR. MACKENZIE:  And if Your Lordship will look at area G, Your  5 Lordship will see the southern boundary of area G is  6 on the base map Sperry, S-p-e-r-r-y, Creek, and area G  7 is entirely east of Shedin Creek -- Shedin Creek.  8 THE COURT: Thank you.  Well, we haven't marked with a letter in  9 this sequence the eastern or southern territory of  10 Wiminoosik.  11 MR. MACKENZIE:  Well, My Lord, is Your Lordship referring to map  12 B?  13 THE COURT:  Yes.  14 MR. MACKENZIE:  My Lord, that was the Gwin dak or territory G  15 with a circle around it.  16 THE COURT:  Oh, yes, that's G with a circle around it, yes.  All  17 right.  18 MR. MACKENZIE:  Does Your Lordship have those then identifying  19 marks now?  20 THE COURT:  Just a moment. And the territory, the most southerly  21 territory on plan B?  22 MR. MACKENZIE:  That's a continuation of territory F.  It curls  23 around.  24 THE COURT:  Oh, I'm sorry.  25 MR. MACKENZIE:  Territory F goes all the way around.  26 THE COURT:   That blackened one is just a trail.  Yes.  Yes.  27 All right.  28 MR. MACKENZIE:  Now, My Lord, one other preliminary matter.  My  29 friends have admitted the authenticity of two of the  30 documents in the green binder, Volume 1, the large  31 green binder, Volume 1, and for the first one that --  32 of which the authenticity has been admitted is the  33 document at tab 8 of the green binder.  Now, My Lord,  34 I have a copy of the -- a written response admitting  35 the authenticity.  Does Your Lordship require that to  36 be filed?  37 THE COURT:  No, I've marked it on the document.  38 MR. MACKENZIE:  My friends gave me a written response admitting  39 that document and the response is dated April 12,  40 1988.  And now referring to that document, exhibit --  41 tab 8, My Lord, that is the Attorney General of  42 British Columbia document 1303, and this is what the  43 notice to admit says, My Lord, or response, written  44 response, says My Lord:  45  46 "Extract from document 1303 being a research  47 report taken from request for funding for research by 532?  Proceedings  1  2  3  4  THE  5  MR.  6  7  8  9  10  11  THE  12  MR.  13  THE  14  MR.  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  THE  24  MR.  25  26  27  THE  28  THE  29  30  31  32  33  MR.  34  THE  35  MR.  36  THE  37  MR.  38  THE  39  MR.  40  MR.  41  42  43  THE  44  MR.  45  46  47  THE  the Gitksan Carrier Tribal Council dated July 1977."  Now, that's the description of the report, My Lord.  URT:  Yes.  MR. MACKENZIE:  And then my friends have said:  "With the exception of any references in that  report to funding and finances relating to the Gitksan  Carrier Tribal Council."  COURT:  To funding or financing?  MACKENZIE:  Yes, My Lord.  COURT:  Of Gitksan Carrier Tribal Council.  Yes.  Thank you.  MACKENZIE:  Now, My Lord, I have no difficulty with that  because I'm not going to be referring to funding and  finances, but I wish to record our position that we do  not agree that that is an exception that can be made  in a notice to admit with respect to authenticity.  It  has nothing to do with authenticity in our submission,  but that's a note for recording, My Lord.  The next document which the plaintiffs have  admitted -- I beg your pardon?  REGISTRAR:  Exhibit?  MACKENZIE:  Oh, thank you very much.  My Lord, since that  document has -- the authenticity has been admitted, I  would submit that as the next exhibit.  COURT:  Yes.  REGISTRAR: Exhibit 384, My Lord.  (EXHIBIT 384:  Volume 1, tab 8, entitled "Gitksan  Carrier Tribal Council Request for Funding")  RUSH:  And I simply reiterate the --  COURT:  Yes.  RUSH:  -- exception that I've noted on the document --  COURT:  Yes.  RUSH:  -- response to admit.  What's the number please?  REGISTRAR: 384.  RUSH:  Thank you.  MACKENZIE:  Thank you, My Lord.  The next document to which  I wish to refer is at tab 9 of the green binder,  Volume 1.  COURT:  Yes.  MACKENZIE:  And in a response dated April 12, 1988, the  plaintiffs have admitted the authenticity of the  document described as follows:  COURT:  Well, is it needed -- is it the same exception? 5329  J. Morrison (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Mackenzie  1 MR. MACKENZIE:  Yes, My Lord.  2 THE COURT:  All right.  That's good enough.  3 MR. MACKENZIE:  There's a slight wording difference, but I think  4 the exception is fundamentally substantially the same,  5 My Lord.  6 THE COURT:  All right.  7 MR. MACKENZIE:  Except for any references to financial reports  8 or funding of the Gitksan Carrier Tribal Council.  9 THE COURT:  All right.  That will be Exhibit 385 then.  10 MR. MACKENZIE:  Thank you, My Lord.  11 THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit 385.  12  13 (EXHIBIT 385: Volume 1, tab 9, entitled "Past  14 Performance and Future Direction - March 1976)  15  16 CROSS-EXAMINATION CONT. BY MR. MACKENZIE:  17 Q   Mr. Morrison, in your evidence you spoke about a  18 helicopter flight that you took to view the  19 territories; do you recall that?  20 A  What year is that?  21 Q   Yes.  You said that it was 1985 or 1986?  22 A   Yeah.  23 Q   Can you recall that on that flight with you were Neil  24 Sterritt?  25 A   Yes.  2 6 Q   And Glen Williams?  27 A   Glen Williams.  2 8 Q   And David Gunanoot?  29 A   Yes.  30 Q   And can you recall that in the territories that we're  31 discussing today you landed just north of Foster Peak?  32 A   Yes.  33 Q   And that is in the northern Wii gaak territory?  34 A   Yes.  35 Q   And when you were there you took -- or Neil Sterritt  36 took photographs of the area?  37 A   Yes.  38 Q   And he also took a video -- or Glen Williams operated  39 a video camera; do you recall that?  40 A   Yes.  41 Q   And you and Neil Sterritt made comments on the video  42 microphone?  43 A   Yes.  44 Q   Okay.  And following that you flew over and landed  45 near Fort Mountain?  46 A   Yes.  47 Q   And that's in a territory B, that's Wii minoosik 5330  J. Morrison (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Mackenzie  1 territory?  2 A   Yes.  3 Q   And at that location Neil Sterritt took photographs?  4 A   Yes.  5 Q   And there were pictures taken with the video camera  6 and --  7 A   Yes.  8 Q   And you made comments on the video tape?  9 A   Yes.  10 Q   And then you flew down to the southern territories and  11 you landed just at the northern edge of Shelf Ridge;  12 correct?  13 A   Yes.  14 Q   And that's in the southern territory, territory F,  15 that's just south of Dam Similoo Lake; is that right?  16 A   Yes.  17 Q   And the same thing occurred there; correct, pictures  18 were taken?  19 A   Yes.  20 Q   Well, when you went on that flight with Neil Sterritt  21 and the other people, did you have the name Txaaxwok?  22 A   No.  23 THE COURT:  I'm sorry?  24 THE WITNESS:   No.  25 MR. MACKENZIE:  26 Q   You say that was before you took the name Txaaxwok?  27 A  Well, I couldn't —  28 Q   I'm sorry, did you answer that question?  29 A   Could you go over that again, please?  30 Q   Yes.  My question was when you went on that flight did  31 you then have the name Txaaxwok?  32 A   Yes.  33 Q   Yes.  That flight was after you took the name  34 Txaaxwok?  35 A   Yes.  36 Q   Yes.  That flight was after the feast at which you  37 took the name Txaaxwok?  38 A   Yes. Just to clarify this --  39 Q   Yes?  4 0 A   -- we have -- I don't know how many flights we took  41 over on the territory not with Neil, but with some  42 other people that I travel.  This is the reason why I  43 want to clarify that.  44 MR. MACKENZIE:   Yes.  So are you happy with that chronology  45 now?  I mean, are you happy now that -- sorry, this is  46 not -- I'll rephrase that question.  I'm going to now  47 refer you to Volume 1 of the photo album -- 5331  J. Morrison (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Mackenzie  REGISTRAR: This one?  MACKENZIE:  — which is an exhibit for identification.  This  is Exhibit 377 for identification, and I refer you to  page 42 in Exhibit 377 and refer to the photograph at  the lower left-hand corner on page 42.  COURT:  Lower left?  MACKENZIE:  Yes, My Lord.  COURT:  Thank you.  MACKENZIE:  Does Your Lordship have that photograph?  COURT:  Yes.  MACKENZIE:  Q   I think you referred to this photograph in your  evidence, Mr. Morrison, but in that photograph on page  42 there's a picture of you; is that correct?  A   Yes.  Q   And David Gunanoot; correct?  A   Yes.  Q   And Glen Williams is standing up in the background?  A   Yes.  Q   And the pilot Mr. Whelan, W-h-e-1-a-n, is leaning  against the helicopter?  A   Yes.  Q   And now I refer you to just across the page to the  label which says "On Foster Peak, June 23, 1983."  Do  you see that label?  A   Yes.  Q   Can you agree that that's the date that you were on  that location?  A   The year is different, this one.  This is why I'm --  Q   So are you saying that you disagree with the label?  A   I thought you were saying '85.  Q   Well, that's what you said before in your testimony.  I'm just asking you whether you can now agree with me  that it was in 1983, June 1983?  A   That's why -- I didn't see this word in '83, that's  what I'm --  Q   Well, now does that refresh your memory?  A  Well, I didn't have anything at that time where they  were writing or anything at that time, but I know we  were in that area ourselves, but I'm not specific on  that day, only we were doing the work at that time,  that's my own concern.  Q   Can you agree with me that it was in June 1983?  A   It could be, but could be not because --  MACKENZIE:   Well, what is your response?  Do you say that  label is wrong?  RUSH:  No, he -- his response was it could be, it could be  1  THE  2  MR.  3  4  5  6  THE  7  MR.  8  THE  9  MR.  10  THE  11  MR.  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  MR.  46  47  MR. 5332  J. Morrison (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Mackenzie  1 not.  2 MR. MACKENZIE:  Well, I'm asking what his response is.  3 MR. RUSH:  That was his response.  4 MR. MACKENZIE:  Well, I'm asking him again.  5 THE COURT:  Does it matter?  6 MR. MACKENZIE:  Yes.  7 THE COURT:  Does it matter at all?  8 MR. MACKENZIE:  Well, My Lord in my — sorry, I don't understand  9 exactly what Your Lordship's comment is directed to.  10 THE COURT:  Well, does it really matter whether it was '83 or  11 '85?  12 MR. MACKENZIE:  Yes, it does, My Lord, because it relates to  13 taking the name.  14 THE COURT:  I would have thought that this was a matter that  15 could have been resolved very quickly in some way.  I  16 can't believe that this is an important issue in this  17 case.  I think, with respect, that counsel expect too  18 much of witnesses to be able to remember dates.  I  19 couldn't tell you or remember a case a couple of years  20 ago in '83 or '85.  I might figure it out, but I'd be  21 guessing.  22 MR. MACKENZIE:  With the greatest of respect, My Lord, we're  23 talking about the most important date in this man's  24 life --  25 THE COURT:  Well, I don't know if it is or not.  26 MR. MACKENZIE:  — taking the name — I'm sorry, My Lord.  27 THE COURT:  I can understand why you want to pin it down, but  28 that is the date when he took the -- when he took that  29 chiefly name.  Does it matter what day he was on the  30 mountain?  31 MR. MACKENZIE:  No, My Lord, it doesn't matter what day.  It  32 matters, in my submission, what year.  33 THE COURT: Well, he said that he's not sure about that date June  34 3rd, 1983.  That's his evidence.  35 MR. MACKENZIE:  36 Q   Yes, My Lord.  My Lord, I think his evidence goes  37 further than that.  38 Mr. Morrison, your concern is that you're not  39 certain about the year; is that correct?  40 A  Well, this is what I'm saying.  See all this matter we  41 were doing there, he never mention anything what year  42 that we going to be working on this, and he only ask  43 us to work on this one, that's what I'm doing.  44 Q   But you don't remember which year it was?  45 A   No, I can't remember because I was only asked to do  46 this work, not the year that we were going to do that.  47 MR. MACKENZIE:  I should mention to Your Lordship this issue 5333  J. Morrison (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Mackenzie  1 will come up several times in the cross-examination.  2 THE COURT:  Can you and Mr. Rush not have a discussion and  3 figure out which date it was that he became chief?  4 MR. RUSH:  My Lord, I — we did of sorts.  There are notes.  I  5 discussed this with Mr. Morrison.  6 THE COURT:  Yes.  7 MR. RUSH:  He's the only one that can access them.  8 THE COURT:  Yes.  9 MR. RUSH:  He will access them.  It will have to be done on the  10 week-end.  11 THE COURT:  Yes.  All right.  12 MR. RUSH:  And unfortunately there's no one at his house at the  13 moment and he can't tell someone where to go in the  14 house to get it, so --  15 THE COURT:  All right.  16 MR. RUSH:  -- I told my learned friend that on this issue of the  17 date of the taking of the name that it will have to be  18 the subject matter of the continuation of the cross  19 because he wrote me this morning and said he intends  20 to pursue it, and I accept that as --  21 THE COURT:  Yes.  22 MR. RUSH:  -- the consequence of this investigation, and I -- I  23 can say that the -- Mr. Morrison will get the notes  24 and return with them.  2 5 THE COURT:  Thank you.  26 MR. MACKENZIE:  Thank you, My Lord.  Perhaps I could go on to  27 another subject.  28 MR. RUSH:  I'm sorry, I said all of that, My Lord, by way of  29 saying that hopefully when that is all done the matter  30 will be resolved.  31 THE COURT:  I would hope so.  32 MR. MACKENZIE:  33 Q   Thank you, My Lord.  34 Now, Mr. Morrison, you testified that you were a  35 band councillor at the Gitanmaax Band?  36 A   Yes.  37 Q   Yes.  And the Gitanmaax Band administers the Hazelton  38 Indian Reserve?  39 A   Yes.  40 Q   And is that about 2,700 acres?  41 A   Something like that.  42 Q   And it also administers the An Law, A-l -- sorry, A-n  43 L-a-w Reserve just north of that one?  44 A   Yes.  45 Q   Yes.  And that's about 280 acres?  46 A   Yes.  47 Q   Yes.  And it also administers the Tsitsk, T-s-i-t-s-k, 5334  J. Morrison (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Mackenzie  1 Reserve which is just on the other side of the  2 bridge -- sorry, on the Hazelton side of the bridge at  3 the Hagwilget River -- at the Bulkley River?  4 A  Would you go over that again, please?  5 Q   Yes.  It also administers the Tsitsk, T-s-i-t-s-k,  6 Reserve just on your side, the Hazelton side --  7 A   Yes.  8 Q   - of the bridge?  9 A   Yes.  10 Q   And that's 137 acres?  11 A   Yes.  12 THE COURT:  How do you spell that again, T-s-i-t-s-k?  13 MR. MACKENZIE:  Yes, My Lord.  14 THE TRANSLATOR: Tsitsk.  The right way of saying it is Tsitsk.  15 MR. MACKENZIE:  Mrs. Howard gave the correct pronunciation, My  16 Lord.  17 THE TRANSLATOR:   Tsitsk.  18 MR. MACKENZIE:  19 Q   Thank you.  20 A  We don't familiar with these.  You have to use the  21 Indian word for that in order to know because we don't  22 use those word that they put on there, but you can  23 read it yourself as you go along.  24 Q   And you administer another reserve called Ksoo-gun-ya,  25 K-s-o-o g-u-n y-a?  26 A   Yes.  27 THE COURT:  — g-u-n, dash —  28 MR. MACKENZIE:  y-a.  2 9 THE COURT:  — y-a.  Thank you.  30 MR. MACKENZIE:  31 Q   And that's about 360 acres?  32 A   Yes.  33 Q   And in addition the Gitanmaax Band administers the  34 Kisgagas Reserve doesn't it?  35 A   Yes.  36 Q   The Kisgagas Reserve is about 2,415 acres isn't it?  37 A   Yes.  38 Q   And the Kisgagas Reserve you referred to is on the  39 Babine River?  40 A   Yes, it's Xsugwin liginsxw.  41 MR. MACKENZIE:   Oh, you mentioned a name.  42 MR. RUSH:  That's 1126, My Lord.  43 THE COURT:  What is 1126, please?  44 MR. RUSH:  That's the Xsugwin liginsxw.  That's the Babine  45 River.  4 6 THE COURT:  Thank you. And the number again?  47 MR. RUSH:  1126. 5335  J. Morrison (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Mackenzie  1 THE COURT:  Thank you.  2 MR. MACKENZIE:  Just to give His Lordship an indication of the  3 location of these reserves, I refer you to tab 16 of  4 the document book.  This is in Volume 1.  5 THE REGISTRAR: This is the one you want?  6 MR. MACKENZIE:  Yes, the green binder.  7 Can you agree that that's the reserve at Hazelton?  8 MR. RUSH:  Well, My Lord, a map is put to the witness, it's  9 called "Plan" and it has a number of lines on it.  10 Maybe my friend could be a little more specific of  11 what he means to be the reserve at Hazelton.  12 MR. MACKENZIE:  13 Q   Well, in the centre of this document there's a  14 reference, "Reserve number one, Hazelton, 2704  15 acres.", and there appears to be a shaded area on this  16 copy around Hazelton and going up the Skeena River a  17 little ways to the north.  Is that where the Hazelton  18 Gitanmaax Reserve is?  19 A   I don't -- I haven't seen this map before.  I  20 haven't -- I been in the reserve and I never see any  21 of those before.  22 Q   Can you identify this as the location of the reserve  23 on this map?  24 A  Well, I know  I was on a reserve, but this is -- this  25 is difficult to read because it's not specific what's  26 on there.  There's a subdivision on that.  Every --  27 every reserve has to be specific on where the house  28 is, where the water-line is.  This is in order to  29 identify it, and this way you can't identify anything  30 on it.  31 MR. MACKENZIE:   Thank you.  My Lord, this is an official plan  32 which is on file in the Prince Rupert Land Title  33 office and also in the Ministry of Lands in Victoria,  34 and in my submission I would request this -- I submit  35 this be marked for identification because it can be  36 admitted under the Evidence Act with a certified  37 copy -- certification.  38 THE COURT:  Well, is there any reason why it shouldn't be marked  39 for identification, Mr. Rush?  40 MR. RUSH:  There's no reason why it shouldn't be marked for  41 identification, My Lord, except to say that all of the  42 reasons given by my learned friend do not, in my  43 submission, indicate that what is in the lines shown  44 here is the reserve.  Subject to that --  4 5 THE COURT:  Yes.  46 MR. RUSH:  The only date on this map, My Lord, is the one that's  47 1899, April 24th -- I'm sorry, there's another one. 5336  J. Morrison (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Mackenzie  1 THE COURT:  May 11th.  2 MR. RUSH:  Yes, another one surveyed by a man by the name of Ian  3 Skinner, PLS, whatever that is, 1898.  4 THE COURT:  Yes.  All right.  It will Exhibit 386 for  5 identification.  6 THE REGISTRAR: 386 for identification.  7  8 (EXHIBIT 386 FOR IDENTIFICATION: Tab 16, plan map of  9 Hazelton Reserve)  10  11 MR. MACKENZIE:  And My Lord, I would submit the document at tab  12 17, which is of the green binder, which is the  13 official plan of the other two -- or two of the other  14 Hazelton Reserves under the same conditions.  15 MR. RUSH:  Well, again, My Lord, presumably the two conditions  16 are that it's on the registry of the Land Registry  17 office.  I'm not sure that the registrar would have  18 the power to make any kind of certification in respect  19 of lands that weren't owned by -- allegedly owned by  20 the province of British Columbia, but anyway -- what  21 was the other reason?  22 MR. MACKENZIE:  Well, I think that Mr. Rush wanted me to have  23 the certification and also Mr. Rush felt that by  24 marking it for identification it was not an agreement  25 on his part that the land within the boundaries was  26 actually reserves.  27 MR. RUSH:  Well, I'm just saying that, My Lord, I don't have a  28 problem with this going in on the same basis, but  29 it -- I don't think Your Lordship can take anything  30 from the markings on here without something much more.  31 THE COURT:  All right.  It will be 387 for identification.  32 THE REGISTRAR: 387, ID.  33  34 (EXHIBIT 387 FOR IDENTIFICATION: Tab 17, plan map,  35 Hazelton Reserve)  36  37 MR. MACKENZIE:  38 Q   Now, speaking about the reserve, Mr. Morrison, there's  39 a school on the reserve?  40 A   Yes.  41 Q   Yes.  That's John Field Elementary School?  42 A   Yes.  43 THE COURT:  This is on the — which reserve?  44 MR. MACKENZIE:  45 Q   This is on the —  4 6          A   Gitanmaax.  47 Q   The Gitanmaax Reserve at Hazelton? 5337  J. Morrison (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Mackenzie  1  A  2  Q  3  4  A  5  Q  6  7  A  8  Q  9  A  10  Q  11  12  A  13  14  15  16  Q  17  A  18  19  MR.  macke:  20  21  22  MR.  RUSH:  23  THE  COURT  24  25  26  MR.  RUSH:  27  MR.  macke:  28  Q  29  30  31  32  A  33  Q  34  35  A  36  Q  37  A  38  Q  39  40  A  41  Q  42  A  43  Q  44  45  A  46  47  Yes.  And you also have a subdivision being constructed on  the highway just south -- just outside Hazelton?  Yes.  And the Gitanmaax Reserve, of course, has electricity  and electricity supplies?  Yes.  And telephone services?  Yes.  And the population of the Gitanmaax Reserve is how  many of the Hazelton -- sorry, the Gitanmaax Band?  I don't know.  I don't really know how many there is  in the population.  You have to be in the office to  know that all the time to keep track with that. We  don't work in the office.  Would you agree with me that around 900 people --  Well, I wouldn't say I wouldn't agree with you unless  I see it myself and in the office there.  JZIE:   Now, speaking about the members of the band,  what's the occupation of -- what are the occupations  of members of the Gitanmaax Band?  Does this not call for a hearsay response, My Lord?  :  Oh, no, I wouldn't think necessarily.  It might, but  there are lots of answers that could be given which  would not be hearsay.  Maybe he just hasn't gone far enough.  JZIE:  Yes, My Lord, perhaps I can be a bit more specific on  that.  Members of the Gitanmaax Band, to your knowledge,  are engaged in the logging industry; is that correct?  Yes.  And they're -- and your occupation is a commercial  fisherman; is that correct?  Yes.  And other people work as labourers in the area?  Yes.  Would you say that the -- most of the people work in  the logging and the forest industry?  Yes.  And some people work as carpenters?  Yes.  Can you agree that the most -- most people on the  reserve work in the forest industry?  I wouldn't say that.  Just an odd one.  It's not all  those works are good in there.  It's -- all the areas  that you're referring to, it's not that good now and 533?  J. Morrison (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Mackenzie  1 it's all -- the reason why they're working on some  2 places they can't do any more on those, what they're  3 doing before.  That's the reason why they're working  4 there because all those areas are -- we been talking  5 about now is all the lands are just destroyed and  6 where they can work?  That's one of the reason why  7 they're working that, and you're talking about  8 electric lights and telephones, see these are the  9 things that have been in to the -- to the subdivision.  10 We also use those, like the other people use those,  11 those telephones and some is like you -- you might use  12 some of our own, Indian, that's the way I look at it.  13 Q   I'd like to refer you to some photographs in the green  14 booklet of photographs, Mr. Morrison, and looking at  15 tab 1 on that green booklet of photographs can you --  16 do you recognize that house, tab 1?  17 A   That's the same thing with these -- these what you are  18 showing me before.  It's only part of it.  It's -- I  19 don't know where you get this.  I didn't recognize  20 that.  21 Q   You don't recognize that as part of the new  22 subdivision?  23 A  Well, maybe so, but you got to have all on that, you  24 can't just take part of it.  You got to really  25 identify where it comes in through the road if it is  26 subdivision, that's the only way you can identify it.  27 You cannot --  28 THE COURT:  Can you not suggest to the witness where it is and  29 he can either agree or disagree?  30 MR. MACKENZIE:  31 Q   Mr. Morrison, that's -- I'm instructed that's a  32 photograph of a house taken at the new subdivision on  33 the Gitanmaax Reserve; can you agree with that?  34 A  Well, I don't know because you have to take the whole  35 photo onto the subdivision in order to know this  36 because many house identical on this.  This is maybe  37 you took it into South Town and it's identically in  38 this house here.  This is what I'm only saying.  I  39 didn't say that wasn't into the subdivision, but you  40 got to take the whole photo and subdivision and see  41 where the road is and the property, numbers of the  42 property.  43 Q   Now, tab 2, there's -- I'm instructed that's a  44 photograph of the Gitanmaax hall on the reserve; is  45 that correct?  46 A   Yes.  47 Q   Yes? 5339  J. Morrison (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Mackenzie  1 A   I recognize that.  2 Q   At tab 3 I'm instructed that's a photograph of the new  3 subdivision on the reserve, again can you recognize  4 that?  5 A   That's the same thing.  You only taken this house  6 here.  It's not clear for what you are doing there.  7 You got to, as I say it again, you got to take the  8 whole thing in order to know that because we have a  9 plans and the subdivision.  10 THE COURT:  You don't recognize that as part of the subdivision?  11 THE WITNESS:   Well, it's just — just these house here.  If you  12 have the other road in there I would recognize it  13 because a lot of the houses in that area beside that  14 area up in the other subdivision identical on this  15 one.  16 THE COURT:  No, no, it's really quite a simple question.  Do you  17 recognize it or don't you as part of this new  18 subdivision on the reserve?  19 THE WITNESS:   That's the only thing I'm saying.  I didn't  20 recognize this because it's -- it has to be the whole  21 thing.  22 THE COURT:  You don't recognize it?  23 THE WITNESS:   Yes.  24 MR. MACKENZIE:  25 Q   And at tab 4 do you recognize that picture as part of  26 the new subdivision on the reserve?  27 A   No.  28 Q   No.  Tab 5, do you recognize that picture as part of  29 the new subdivision on the reserve?  30 A   No.  31 Q   Tab 6, do you recognize that photograph as part of the  32 new subdivision on the reserve?  33 A   No.  34 Q   Tab 7, do you recognize that photograph?  35 A   No.  36 MR. MACKENZIE:   Well, I'll skip — well, tab 8, do you  37 recognize that photograph?  Sorry, I'm referring to  38 this one here.  3 9 THE COURT:  Tab 8?  40 MR. MACKENZIE:  Tab 8.  41 THE COURT:  Yes?  42 THE WITNESS:   You got two pictures here, this is why it's hard  43 to identify it.  Both of them are the same what you  44 just show me now.  45 MR. MACKENZIE:  46 Q   Okay.  You don't recognize that picture?  47 A   No. 5340  J. Morrison (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Mackenzie  1 Q   Going over to the next one, tab 9, do you recognize  2 that picture?  3 A   No.  4 Q   Tab 10, this is a residence on the Gitanmaax Reserve  5 I'm instructed; do you recognize that picture?  6 A   No.  7 Q   That's down near Hazelton, does that help you to  8 recognize it?  9 A   No.  10 Q   No.  Tab 11, I'm instructed that's a residence on the  11 Gitanmaax Reserve at Hazelton; do you recognize that  12 picture?  13 A   Yeah, I recognize the school here --  14 THE COURT:  This is tab 11?  15 THE WITNESS:   — is that what you're referring to?  16 MR. MACKENZIE:   Yes.  My Lord, the witness is referring to the  17 building in the background on the far right-hand side  18 of the photograph.  19 THE COURT:  On which tab, please?  20 MR. MACKENZIE:  On tab 11.  21 MR. RUSH:  There's a white and brown —  22 THE COURT:  Yes.  23 MR. RUSH:  -- building structure and he referred to the brown  24 one.  25 THE COURT:  In the foreground?  2 6 MR. RUSH:  Yes.  2 7 THE COURT:  Yes.  28 THE WITNESS:   And I identify these two houses.  29 MR. MACKENZIE:  30 Q   Yes.  Do you know those houses?  31 A   Yeah, this is the church here.  32 Q   The white building in the photograph at tab 11 is the  33 church?  Is that the Salvation Army church?  34 A   Yes.  35 Q   And the brown building beside it, do you know --  36 A   That's the nursery school.  37 Q   That's the nursery school.  And going to the next one  38 at the next photograph at -- after tab 12, do you  39 recognize those houses on the Gitanmaax Reserve?  4 0          A   No.  41 Q   No.  Thank you.  Going over to tab 13, do you  42 recognize the picture of the school on the Gitanmaax  4 3              Reserve?  44 A   Yes, it's John Field School.  45 Q   And going to the next tab 14, that's the Salvation  4 6 Army church on the reserve?  47 A   Yes.  Yes. 5341  J. Morrison (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Mackenzie  1 Q   And tab 15, that's the -- that's the Indian Health  2 Services office?  3 A   Yeah.  4 Q   Yes?  5 A   Yes.  6 MR. RUSH:  Well, you should -- do you mean Department of Indian  7 Affairs?  There seems to be a description on there.  8 THE COURT:  Well, that's a term that we've heard before and  9 other witnesses have identified other buildings by  10 that title, Indian Health Services office.  11 MR. RUSH:  My friend said Indian Health Services.  I think it  12 should be clear what that is, and there is a logo on  13 it and a description on it.  14 MR. MACKENZIE:  15 Q   What's the name of that office, Mr. -- what do you  16 call it on the reserve?  17 A  Well, that's -- I wasn't working there, I don't know  18 what they call it, but I know it's -- it's the health  19 centre.  20 Q   Yes.  Thank you.  Tab 16, that's the band council  21 office?  22 A   Yes.  23 MR. MACKENZIE:  And I'll ask you about the final tab because  24 we'll -- I'll be asking you other questions about it  25 later.  Tab 17, I'm instructed that that's a  26 photograph of the Waiget, W-a-i-g-e-t, pole at  27 Kisgagas; can you recognize that?  28 MR. RUSH:  Are you showing the witness a photograph or the  29 photocopy?  30 MR. MACKENZIE:  The photograph.  31 MR. RUSH:  Oh, you're showing the photograph?  32 THE WITNESS:   No, I didn't see this.  It could be standing  33 there before -- before my time and I didn't see that.  34 MR. MACKENZIE:  Yes, I'm instructed this photograph was included  35 in Mr. Barbeau's book in 1929, so it's quite an old  36 photograph.  37 THE COURT:  You don't recognize it?  38 THE WITNESS:   No.  39 MR. MACKENZIE:   Now, My Lord, there are six photographs in this  40 binder that Mr. Morrison recognized, tab 2, tab 11,  41 tab 13, tab 14 —  42 THE COURT:  Are you going to ask that they be separately marked?  43 MR. MACKENZIE:  I'm in Your Lordship's hands on that.  44 THE COURT:  All right.  Well, then unless you have an objection,  45 Mr. Rush, tab 2 will be Exhibit 388.  46 THE REGISTRAR: 388.  47 5342  J. Morrison (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Mackenzie  1 (EXHIBIT 388: Tab 2, photograph, Gitanmaax Hall)  2  3 THE COURT:  And tab 11 will be 38 9.  4 THE REGISTRAR: 389.  13.  5  6 (EXHIBIT 389:Tab 11, photograph, residence on reserve)  7  8 THE COURT:  13 will be 390.  9  10 (EXHIBIT 390: Tab 13, photograph of school on reserve)  11  12 THE REGISTRAR: 14.  13 THE COURT:  14 will be 391.  14 THE REGISTRAR: 391.  15  16 (EXHIBIT 391:  Tab 14, photograph of SA church)  17  18 THE COURT:  15 will be 392.  16 will be 393.  I think that's all  19 isn't it?  I think I only identified six photographs.  20  21 (EXHIBIT 392:Tab 15, photograph, Indian Health Centre)  22  23 (EXHIBIT 393:Tab 16, photograph, band council office)  24  25 MR. MACKENZIE:  Yes, My Lord.  2 6 THE COURT:  All right.  Yes.  All right.  Thank you.  27 MR. MACKENZIE:  28 Q   Thank you, My Lord.  29 Now, Mr. Morrison, did you vote in the last  30 provincial election?  31 A  Well, I voted maybe once in a while, but I couldn't  32 remember whether I vote or not because -- at the last  33 election.  34 Q   I refer to tab 7 in the green binder, Volume 1 of the  35 document book, and at that document page 20, item 172.  36 I'm marking the exhibit at item 172 in front of Mr.  37 Morrison.  38 A   Okay.  39 Q   Mr. Morrison, your name appears on the voters' list  40 for the -- for Hazelton?  41 A   Yes, Gitanmaax.  42 MR. MACKENZIE:   Yes.  And there are several other members of  43 the Gitanmaax Band who are -- whose names are on the  44 voting list?  For example, just above you "Vincent  45 Lawrence Moore, 171", just above your name there?  Can  46 you see that?  47 THE COURT:  Well, doesn't this speak for itself, Mr. — 5343  J. Morrison (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Mackenzie  1 MR. MACKENZIE:  Yes, My Lord.  2 THE COURT:  — Mackenzie?  3 THE WITNESS:   I knew all the Morrisons here, but the other ones  4 I got nothing to do with it.  5 MR. MACKENZIE:  6 Q   Okay.  Fine.  Thank you.  That's all the questions I  7 have on that.  8 And do you vote in the band council elections?  9 A   Yes.  10 MR. MACKENZIE:   Yes.  Now, the next document I want to refer  11 you to, Mr. Morrison, is at tab 1 of the green binder.  12 THE REGISTRAR: Are you marking that last one, Mr. Mackenzie?  13 MR. MACKENZIE:  14 Q   No.  15 This is an affidavit, and at page 21 of the  16 affidavit is a date, June -- I think it may be June  17 11, 1986.  Is that your signature on page 21 of that  18 affidavit?  19 A   Yeah, this one here.  20 MR. MACKENZIE:   Yes.  Referring to page 21, the signature, My  21 Lord.  22 THE COURT:  Yes.  23 MR. MACKENZIE:  I submit that affidavit and attachments as the  24 next exhibit, My Lord.  25 MR. RUSH:  My Lord, that I think is June 16 and not June 11.  2 6 THE COURT:  I do too.  27 MR. MACKENZIE:  Yes.  The date should be June 16, 1986.  2 8 THE COURT:  All right.  Any objection, Mr. Rush?  29 MR. RUSH:  No, that's his signature.  30 THE COURT:  394.  31 THE REGISTRAR: 394.  32  33 (EXHIBIT 394:  Affidavit and attachments of James  34 Morrison dated June 16, 1986)  35  36 MR. MACKENZIE:  37 Q   And just going on from page 21, I'll just refer  38 briefly to the exhibits following page 21.  The next  39 two pages are an affidavit by Mr. Robinson, Steve  40 Robinson, and -- dated November 2, 1983.  That's  41 Exhibit A, your affidavit.  Mr. Robinson was the chief  42 councillor of the Gitanmaax Band then?  43 A   Yes.  44 MR. MACKENZIE:   And going over to the next document, Exhibit A  45 to Mr. Robinson's affidavit, you go to page 7 of that  4 6              document.  47 THE COURT:  I don't seem to have page 2 of that document. 5344  J. Morrison (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Mackenzie  1 MR. MACKENZIE:  That's in the —  2 THE COURT:  I'm not sure that's necessary, but —  3 MR. MACKENZIE:  I can provide that for Your Lordship.  It's in  4 the witness' copy.  5 MR. RUSH:  Which one is that?  6 MR. MACKENZIE:  This is Exhibit A to Mr. Robinson's affidavit.  7 MR. RUSH:  Steve Robinson?  8 MR. MACKENZIE:  Yes.  9 MR. RUSH:  Which page, 2?  10 MR. MACKENZIE:  Page 2.  11 MR. RUSH:  His — oh, I see.  Yes.  12 MR. MACKENZIE:  13 Q   And referring to page 7, that's your signature on page  14 7?  15 A   Yes.  16 Q   Yes.  And this document, Exhibit A, is a by-law passed  17 by the Gitanmaax Band?  18 A   Yes.  19 Q   And it was dated April 28th, 1983?  20 A   Yes.  21 THE COURT:  Forget what I said, Mr. Mackenzie, I do have page 2.  22 MR. RUSH:  It's at the top of the page.  23 THE COURT:  I see that now.  24 MR. MACKENZIE:  Sorry, did Your Lordship find page 7?  2 5 THE COURT:  Yes.  26 MR. MACKENZIE:  Yes.  27 THE COURT:  Is this a convenient place to adjourn, Mr.  28 Mackenzie?  29 MR. MACKENZIE:  Yes, My Lord.  30 THE COURT:  All right.  31 THE REGISTRAR: Order in court.  Court will recess.  32  33  34 (PROCEEDINGS ADJOURNED FOR MORNING RECESS)  35  36  37 I hereby certify the foregoing to  38 be a true and accurate transcript  39 of the proceedings herein to the  40 best of my skill and ability.  41  42  43 Tanita S. French  44 Official Reporter  45  46  47 5345  J. Morrison (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Mackenzie  1 (PROCEEDINGS RESUMED PURSUANT TO AN ADJOURNMENT)  2  3 THE REGISTRAR:  Order in court.  4 THE COURT:  June 6 is a free week for me at the moment and I  5 will keep it that way until I hear further.  6 MR. RUSH:  All right.  Thank you, my lord.  7 THE COURT:  Mr. Mackenzie.  8 MR. MACKENZIE:  9 Q    Thank you, my lord.  I just referred to the Band  10 Council By-law dated April 28, 1983.  Now, referring  11 to that by-law of 1983, Mr. Morrison, that was a  12 by-law to regulate the fishing on the reserves, the  13 waters on the reserve?  14 A    Yes.  15 MR. MACKENZIE:  And then continuing on with the attachments to  16 your affidavit --  17 THE COURT:  Can I interrupt you, Mr. Mackenzie?  Why is it  18 necessary to regulate fishing on the reserve?  Only  19 Indians could fish on the reserve, can they not?  20 THE WITNESS:  They can fish anywhere.  This is why the problem  21 is where we make this by-law here.  There is problems  22 with the Fishery, losing their nets left and right,  23 and have the problems, will never stop.  This is why  24 this is make this and this is why assign this.  25 THE COURT:  This would only regulate Indians from fishing on the  26 reserve, would it not?  27 THE WITNESS:  It is —  28 THE COURT:  No one else could fish on the reserve, could they?  29 THE WITNESS:  Well, Indians are free to fish anywhere.  30 THE COURT:  We are not talking about that, we are talking about  31 fishing on the reserve.  32 THE WITNESS:  Yes, but Indians are fishing in the reserve.  33 THE COURT:  But would the by-law only regulate the fishing of  34 Indians on the reserve because only Indians could fish  35 on the reserve?  36 THE WITNESS:  Yeah.  37 THE COURT:  Was there some other reason for the by-law?  38 THE WITNESS:  Well, this is one reason for that, to protect — I  39 mean, the problems arise with these people at the  40 Fishery at that time and that's one problem that they  41 have -- they lose nets and they just get --  42 unbelievable what happened there and they don't listen  43 to anyone.  44 THE COURT:  I am not — I don't want to get into the  45 disagreement between the Fishery and the Indians at  4 6 the moment.  I am trying to figure out why they wanted  47 a by-law, or was it to allow or to regulate the 5346  J. Morrison (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Mackenzie  1 fishing of non-Indians on the reserve?  2 THE WITNESS:  That's another thing, too.  3 THE COURT:  That's another part of it?  4 THE WITNESS:  Yes.  5 THE COURT:  I see.  All right.  Well, that makes some sense.  6 All right, thank you.  Sorry, Mr. Mackenzie.  7 MR. MACKENZIE:  Thank you, my lord.  Then, my lord, moving over  8 four pages to a set of regulations.  This is Exhibit E  9 to Mr. Robinson's affidavit.  Does your lordship have  10 the regulations?  11 THE COURT:  Yes.  12 MR. MACKENZIE:  13 Q    Now, there are eight pages of regulations.  The  14 Gitanmaax Band Council also passed fishing regulations  15 under its fishing by-law; is that correct, Mr.  16 Morrison?  17 A    Yeah.  18 MR. MACKENZIE:  Continuing on, my lord, to another two pages  19 over to a new by-law.  This is a 1986 by-law.  Does  20 your lordship have the first page of that?  It is  21 Exhibit C to Mr. Morrison's affidavit.  22 THE COURT:  Yes.  23 MR. MACKENZIE:  24 Q    My lord, I refer to page 13 of that document.  Now,  25 referring to page 13.  First of all, I will start with  26 page 12 of this document which is Exhibit C to your  27 affidavit.  This by-law was dated February 21, 1986;  28 is that correct?  29 A    Yes.  30 Q    And going to page 13, is that your signature on that  31 page at the top?  32 A    Yes.  33 MR. MACKENZIE:  Does your lordship have those references?  34 THE COURT:  Yes.  35 MR. MACKENZIE:  36 Q    Thank you, my lord.  And referring to page 2 of that  37 by-law, paragraph -- or section 1(a), this by-law was  38 to apply to the reserves administered by the Gitanmaax  39 Band; is that correct?  40 A    Yes.  41 Q    And at sections 1.3, "The intent and object of the  42 band council was to enact a code to govern and manage  43 the fisheries on all the reserves administered by the  44 Gitanmaax Band"; is that correct?  45 A    Yes.  46 Q    All right, thank you.  Now, you were very much  47 involved with these fishing by-laws personally, 5347  J. Morrison (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Mackenzie  weren't you, Mr. Morrison?  A    Yes.  Q    You were given responsibility for implementing the  fishing by-law, weren't you?  A    Well, not only me.  Q    You and Audrey Woods?  A    Yes, but also the other hereditary chiefs were  under, and they the ones that make that.  People can't  just have two people on to work on those things.  MACKENZIE:  Yes.  You were personally -- your paragraph --  referring to your affidavit, paragraph -- sorry, tab  1, paragraph 12, this is Exhibit 394, your affidavit,  paragraph 12.  Does your lordship have that at page 4,  beginning of the tab in the green binder?  COURT:  Yes.  MACKENZIE:  Q    Page 4, paragraph 12.  The Gitanmaax Band Council  decided to implement the by-law and delegated the task  to you and Audrey Woods.  Now, that's correct, isn't  it?  A    Yes.  Q    And the by-law -- in the by-law, the band council  authorized the Gitksan-Wet'suwet'en Tribal Council  Association to administer the by-law, didn't it?  A    Yes.  Q    Yes.  And the band council authorized Fisheries  officers to work under the direction of the tribal  council, didn't it?  A    Yes.  MACKENZIE:  And section 59 of the by-law, my lord —  RUSH:  Which one?  MACKENZIE:  I have to go back to the 1986 by-law.  COURT:  Sorry, the '86 by-law?  MACKENZIE:  Yes, my lord.  COURT:  Section 59?  MACKENZIE:  Yes, my lord.  It is on page 12 of the by-law.  Does your lordship have that towards the end of the  by-law, 1986 by-law?  COURT:  Is that the second one or the first one?  MACKENZIE:  That's the second one, my lord.  COURT:  Yes.  MACKENZIE:  And the band council would appoint members to an  advisory board of the hereditary chiefs.  Is that part  of the by-law, Mr. Morrison, as you recall?  RUSH:  Maybe that just should be read, the 59.  MACKENZIE:  He has it in front of him, Mr. Rush.  RUSH:  Well, you should ask him to confirm 59.  Your summary  1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  MR.  11  12  13  14  15  THE  16  MR.  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  MR.  31  MR.  32  MR.  33  THE  34  MR.  35  THE  36  MR.  37  38  39  THE  40  MR.  41  THE  42  MR.  43  44  45  MR.  46  MR.  47  MR. 534?  J. Morrison (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Mackenzie  1 wasn't right on there.  2 MR. MACKENZIE:  3 Q    Mr. Morrison, the band council was to appoint  4 members to the advisory board consisting of the  5 hereditary chiefs; correct?  6 A    Yes.  7 Q    And that advisory board would make recommendations  8 to the tribal council?  9 A    Yes.  10 Q    And the recommendations would relate to the  11 regulations of the fishing on the reserve?  12 A    Yes.  13 Q    And in this case, it would be the regulation of the  14 fishing on the Gitanmaax Reserve, wouldn't it?  15 A    Yes.  16 THE COURT:  Is Lax Skiik, is that Eagle?  17 MR. MACKENZIE:  18 Q    Lax Skiik, which clan is that, Mr. Morrison?  19 A    Lax Skiik, that's a little between those crests.  20 That's what they are talking about, Lax Skiik.  21 Q    Maybe, Miss Howard -- I am sorry.  22 A    Between those crests.  It is a big word.  You won't  23 understand it if I tell you.  24 MR. MACKENZIE:  Can you tell us how you say the Eagle Clan in --  25 THE COURT:  Is this the Eagle Clan?  26 MR. MACKENZIE:  27 Q    Well, my lord, that's my understanding.  28 A    It is in between those.  2 9 THE COURT:  That's what I thought it was, but I am not sure I  30 heard that word before but -- so I wanted to make  31 sure.  Thank you.  32 MR. MACKENZIE:  33 Q    Thank you.  Mr. Morrison, now, I refer to tab 3 in  34 the green binder, and this is a Band Council  35 Resolution apparently -- dated November 6, 1979?  Is  36 that your signature at the bottom?  37 A    Yes.  38 MR. MACKENZIE:  Next exhibit, my lord.  39 MR. RUSH:  Excuse me.  Yes, I am sorry.  40 THE COURT:  All right.  Exhibit 395.  41 THE REGISTRAR:  395 tab 3.  42  43  44 (EXHIBIT 395 - TAB 3 GREEN DOC. BOOK - J. MORRISON BAND  45 COUNCIL RESOLUTION NOV. 6, 1979)  46  47 MR. MACKENZIE: 5349  J. Morrison (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Mackenzie  1  Q  2  3  A  4  Q  5  6  7  A  8  9  10  Q  11  12  A  13  Q  14  15  A  16  Q  17  A  18  THE COURT  19  20  MR. macke:  21  Q  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  A  32  Q  33  34  A  35  36  Q  37  A  38  Q  39  A  40  Q  41  42  A  43  Q  44  A  45  Q  46  47  Now, that Band Council Resolution deals with Robert  Jackson's traplines, doesn't it, Mr. --  Yes.  -- Morrison?  During your time on the band council,  have you passed other Band Council Resolutions  relating to traplines?  I am not really remember any of that.  When I see  those things you talking about, I can tell you about  what I see in front of me, I can tell you.  I understand.  Let's talk about this one.  Robert  Jackson is a member of the Gitanmaax Band?  Yes.  And his Gitksan name was as stated there.  How do  you say that?  Where is that?  I am sorry, what is Robert Jackson's --  Gal sa tap haat.  It   is   right   here,   isn't   it?     G-u-1   s-i-p   d-u-i-p  h-a-a-t.  JZIE:  Yes, my lord.  I don't know whether Miss Howard  aggrees with that.  I think your lordship wanted to  ensure there was consistency.  That's the spelling  on the by-law.  Now, Mr. Morrison -- I beg your  pardon, the Band Council Resolution, that's right.  Mr. Morrison, this Band Council Resolution at the  bottom says, "Upon request of Mr. Robert Jackson Sr.  the above described hunting and trapping ground be  registered in the name of Robert Jackson Sr., Freddie  Star and Company".  You see that?  Yes.  Now, that was a direction to the Fish and Wildlife  Branch, wasn't it?  Yes.  I don't know if you have the other copy  besides this.  What would that be?  I mean the declaration from the hereditary chiefs.  Which declaration would you be speaking about?  Well, on this one.  I don't see a reference to a declaration on the Band  Council Resolution, Mr. --  Maybe —  Would you recognize the declaration if you saw it?  Yes.  I am placing Exhibit 340 in front of you.  This is  entitled Gitksan-Carrier Declaration, it is dated  Kispiox, B.C., November 7, 1977.  Is that the 5350  J. Morrison (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Mackenzie  1 declaration that you are talking about?  2 A    No, no.  That's different.  3 Q    Okay.  Thank you.  Well, there is no reference to  4 the declaration in the Band Council Resolution, is  5 there?  6 A    Well, there is one there.  That's reason why we  7 passed this, come from the hereditary chiefs.  8 Q    Yes, but you were asking or directing the Fish and  9 Wildlife Branch to register the trapline in this name,  10 weren't you?  11 A    Yes, on the behalf of the hereditary chiefs.  This  12 is what we have been talking here.  13 Q    And you were acting on behalf of the hereditary  14 chiefs?  15 A    Well, I am the -- and also the other one, too, so --  16 Q    Was the Band Council Resolution acting on behalf of  17 the hereditary chiefs when they passed this?  18 A    The other I am talking about.  It is the same as  19 like this was using all the chiefs name, the  20 signature.  We see their signature on there before we  21 pass because council held no authority in this  22 territory to pass anything unless the hereditary  23 chiefs signed this between this owner and the band  24 council so we have that.  You must have it somewhere.  25 Q    You are sure that -- fine.  Well, let's talk about  26 this Band Council Resolution which is Exhibit 395.  As  27 you understand it, this was to be sent to the Fish and  28 Wildlife Branch?  29 A    Yes, right.  30 Q    And then following that, the Fish and Wildlife  31 Branch would look after changing the registration of  32 the traplines, wouldn't they?  33 A    Yes, yes.  34 Q    Is it true that the Fish and Wildlife Branch often  35 consults the band council about the trapping areas?  36 A    Not the band council.  It is the hereditary chiefs  37 that are responsible for all the territory.  As I -- I  38 have stated back again, these are the people to be  39 contact and they contact the band council as their  40 authority has been signed and this is why I am saying  41 on my affidavit before that the hereditary chiefs as  42 the foundation of the village, and he is the owners of  43 the territories we have been talking about, not the  44 band council, but also come to us at that time to sign  45 this and in order to Fishing and Wildlife to register  46 traplane in Robert's name is the request of Fish and  47 Wildlife.  That's why we go through.  But first we 5351  J. Morrison (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Mackenzie  1 have to contact this hereditary chiefs.  We can't just  2 take it over ourself as a band council.  This is  3 how -- how this --  4 Q    So you were acting -- the band council was acting on  5 behalf of the hereditary chiefs?  6 A    Well, I was council that time.  You see my signature  7 there.  8 Q    Yes.  9 A   As a council.  10 Q    The band council -- was the band council acting on  11 behalf of the hereditary chiefs?  12 A    I am a council that time and I say that.  That's all  13 I am saying.  14 Q    You are saying you were a councillor; you were also  15 a hereditary chief then, weren't you?  16 A    Yes.  17 Q    You were a subchief, weren't you?  18 A    Yes, and I have the authority to advise people as a  19 council.  That's one thing I have explained to you.  20 Q    Did you advise the band council to pass this  21 resolution?  22 A    Yes, advised them for the declaration I am talking  23 about, to go to all the hereditary chief and sign it  24 first before we even put it in our tribal as a  25 council.  26 Q    Yes.  But you were not speaking as a hereditary  27 chief, were you?  28 A    I am speaking on the hereditary chief and I advise  29 them but when I signed this, I was acting as a  30 council.  31 Q    Well, you were a chief of the Kitwancool Wolf Clan,  32 weren't you?  33 A    Yes, chief at that time.  34 Q    And that clan has no interest in these territories,  35 does it?  36 A    Not, but Gitanmaax has interest on this one.  This  37 is why I advised them to go to them, not to me.  38 Q    I see.  And so the band council followed your  39 advice; is that correct?  40 A    That's right.  41 Q    And they went to the hereditary chiefs?  42 A    Yes.  43 Q    And they got directions from the hereditary chiefs?  44 A    Yes.  45 Q    And they acted on those directions?  46 A    Yes.  47 Q    And so they then passed this Band Council 5352  J. Morrison (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Mackenzie  1 Resolution?  2 A    Yes.  3 Q    And on behalf of the hereditary chiefs, they sent  4 the Band Council Resolution to the Fish and Wildlife  5 Branch?  6 A    Yes.  7 Q    Does the band council act on behalf of the  8 hereditary chiefs on other occasions?  9 A    No.  In the feast, they got no authority in the  10 feast.  As I stated before on my affidavit, only  11 request from these chiefs here, this is why I am  12 saying the hand in hand with the council.  The  13 authority come from the chiefs and they requesting  14 through the band council whatever that is has to be  15 done.  This is how it's done and there is no authority  16 in the feast.  So like if the resolutions come to the  17 feast, they have their own laws there.  That's why  18 they dealing with that in the feast.  19 Q    The band council acts on behalf of the hereditary  20 chiefs when dealing with traplines; is that correct?  21 A    Well, see, on the recommendation of hereditary  22 chiefs, not just the band council.  23 Q    And the band council acts on behalf of the  24 hereditary chiefs when a break tries to regulate the  25 fisheries?  26 A    Yes.  27 Q    And does the band council act on behalf of the  28 hereditary chiefs on any other matters?  29 A    I don't know.  Only I am dealing with this one now.  30 THE COURT:  Who's Freddie Star?  31 THE WITNESS:  He is related to Robert Jackson there.  32 THE COURT:  What relation?  33 THE WITNESS:  He is — I am not sure what — how — he's  34 probably his uncle or something like that.  I am not  35 familiar with the other clan anyway.  36 THE COURT:  Are they the same clan?  37 THE WITNESS:  Yeah, the same clan.  That's why they holding both  38 of them in the same territory.  39 THE COURT:  In the same house?  40 THE WITNESS:  Yes.  41 THE COURT:  Thank you.  42 MR. MACKENZIE:  43 Q    And I refer you to the document at tab 2 of the  44 green binder.  Is that your signature on the bottom of  45 that page?  46 A    Yes.  47 MR. MACKENZIE:  My lord, this is a letter from the band council 5353  J. Morrison (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Mackenzie  1 to the minister of the environment.  I submit -- dated  2 March 28, 1984.  I submit that as the next exhibit.  3 MR. RUSH:  The exhibit in its present form is incomplete.  It  4 only makes sense if the letter from a Mr. Frank E.  5 Guillon, G-u-i-1-l-o-n contains the information of the  6 new policies of the ministry of environment which it  7 purports to have attached to it and presumably which  8 the letter is a response to.  It is not there and I  9 think it should be before this is entered or we should  10 have some indication from my friend if he'll -- if he  11 intends to add that to the letter from Mr. Guillon.  12 MR. MACKENZIE:  I think that's re-examination, my lord.  13 THE COURT:  Yes, this letter is complete on its face.  Certainly  14 it is a matter for re-examination if you wish, Mr.  15 Rush.  I don't think I can require your friend to put  16 it in.  17 MR. RUSH:  Well, then, is he just putting in the one letter?  18 THE COURT:  That's all he seems to be doing.  19 MR. RUSH:  Just the letter one and two -- page 2.  Well, we  20 should take the other one out, I guess.  21 THE COURT:  Yes.  That'll be Exhibit 396.  22 THE REGISTRAR:  396, my lord.  23  24 (EXHIBIT 396 - TAB 2 GREEN DOC. BOOK LETTER  2 5 DATED MARCH 28, 1984)  26  27 MR. MACKENZIE:  28 Q    Mr. Morrison, going over to the letter from Mr.  29 Guillon dated March 14, 1984.  Did the band council  30 receive that letter from Mr. Guillon?  31 A    Give me time to read this over.  32 THE COURT:  I suspect Mr. Rush will agree that it was received.  33 MR. RUSH:  I would not only that, but something else with it.  34 THE COURT:  Yes.  35 MR. MACKENZIE:  My lord, in that case I submit that as the next  36 exhibit.  37 MR. RUSH:  That makes my point.  38 THE COURT:  Yes, but what about the enclosure, the three new  39 policies?  40 MR. MACKENZIE:  I am not — well, I don't have copies of those  41 policies, my lord.  They are described in the letter  42 generally.  There is a general reference to them.  43 THE COURT:  All right.  Well, I don't think Mr. Rush is  44 objecting to that and you can put the three new  45 policies in that you wish, Mr. Rush, as part of your  46 re-examination I should say.  So this letter will be  47 397. 5354  J. Morrison (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Mackenzie  1 THE REGISTRAR  2 MR. MACKENZIE  3 THE REGISTRAR  Is it also tab 2?  Yes.  Thank you.  4  5 (EXHIBIT 397 - TAB 2 GREEN DOC. BOOK - LETTER DATED  6 MARCH 14, 1984)  7  8 MR. RUSH:  I don't know whether the Gitanmaax Band Council has  9 it or hasn't but what I am doing now is making a  10 formal request for my learned friend to produce that  11 document.  12 MR. MACKENZIE:  Well, my lord, it says received March 15, 1984  13 Gitanmaax Band Council.  That's my friend's client --  14 I am sorry, that's not my friend's client, he's taken  15 that position on several occasions.  16 MR. RUSH:  Thank you.  17 THE COURT:  I don't understand what the difficulty is and I  18 don't see any need for prolonging the discussion about  19 it.  The letter is in and the reply.  All that's  20 missing is the three new policies.  They are in the  21 possession of one party or the other, both have  22 demanded discovery of documents and, if Mr. Rush wants  23 to put it in in re-examination, it seems to me he is  24 properly entitled to do so.  25 MR. MACKENZIE:  26 Q    Now, Mr. Morrison, do you recall receiving that  27 letter from Mr. Guillon dated March 14, 1984, Exhibit  28 397?  2 9 A    I don't.  I don't remember anything like that.  30 Q    Fine.  31 A    It may be in the office but I didn't see that.  32 Q    Do you recall that the minister of the environment  33 advised the band council about new policies relating  34 to the management of traplines?  35 A    Yes, there is.  36 Q    You recall that?  37 A    Yes.  38 Q    And do you recall that those policies also dealt  39 with the cancellation of traplines?  40 A    Well, these letter, I don't know about.  The next  41 one I didn't see them.  42 Q    My friend -- Mr. Morrison is referring to this  43 letter of March 14.  I just ask you, Mr. Morrison,  44 whether you recall -- do you recall that the new  45 policy was related to cancelling of traplines that  46 were not being trapped?  Do you have any personal  47 knowledge of that? 5355  J. Morrison (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Mackenzie  1 A    No, I don't know.  Maybe it is in the office but I  2 didn't see that.  You know, I don't --  3 Q    You don't remember that?  4 A    I don't remember.  What I see in front of me, this  5 is what I am going to tell you.  6 Q    I understand.  Let's look at Exhibit 396.  See  7 number 3 there at the top, "Cancellation of trapping  8 privileges on Crown land for inactivity".  See that?  9 A    You mean number 3?  10 Q    Yes.  You —  11 A    Yes.  12 Q    Yes?  13 A    Well, there may be the letter in there which I don't  14 know anything about it.  15 Q    What I want to ask you is that was one of the  16 concerns which you were dealing with in your letter of  17 March 28, isn't it?  18 A    Yes.  19 Q    Yes?  20 A    Yes.  21 Q    And the band council wrote to the minister of the  22 environment in response to that concern, didn't it?  23 A    Yes.  24 MR. MACKENZIE:  Referring to tab 14, my lord, of the green  25 binder.  Now, the date is difficult to see on this  26 Federal Court document, my lord.  I am instructed it  27 is December 1987.  This is a Federal Attorney General  28 of Canada document 11,188, and it's --  2 9 THE COURT:  What do you say the date is?  30 MR. MACKENZIE:  December of 1987, my lord.  31 THE COURT:  You don't have the date specifically?  32 MR. MACKENZIE:  It's referred to in my friend's list of  33 documents but I don't have the specific -- the exact  34 date, my lord.  35 THE COURT:  All right.  December '87, thank you.  36 MR. MACKENZIE:  37 Q    Now, Mr. Morrison, your name appears at the top of  38 that document as one of the plaintiffs, James  39 Morrison.  Do you see that?  40 A    Yeah, I can see that.  41 MR. MACKENZIE:  And also it refers to the members of the  42 Gitanmaax Band, the Gitanmaax Band, and the Gitanmaax  43 Band Council.  Do you see that?  Now, let me tell you  44 what this -- let me suggest to you what this is, Mr.  45 Morrison, and I'll ask you about it.  I understand  46 this is an action by the -- by you and the other  47 plaintiffs against Canada for -- 5356  J. Morrison (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Mackenzie  1 MR. RUSH:  Breach of trust.  2 MR. MACKENZIE:  For breach of trust.  Perhaps my friend could  3 just -- would agree that that's an action started by  4 the Gitanmaax Band and the Federal Court of Canada in  5 December of 1987, whether I could submit that as the  6 next exhibit.  7 MR. RUSH:  I would like to but I think you better cross-examine  8 the witness on it because it has Mr. Grant's name on  9 it and not mine.  10 MR. MACKENZIE:  11 Q    Mr. Morrison, are you familiar with this action  12 which, for breach of trust, it relates to shown in  13 paragraph 11, the two parcels of land sold to the  14 Terrace School District?  Do you know anything about  15 that?  16 A    No, I don't see this before.  17 Q    This is just late last year.  Were you a band  18 council member last year?  19 A    Yes, but the signature on that, we don't sign  20 anything like that.  21 Q    I'll tell you about that.  That's Mr. Grant's  22 signature on page 7; he is the lawyer.  Do you know  23 Mr. Grant?  24 A    Yeah, I know him.  25 Q    He is the lawyer -- yes, he is the lawyer for the  26 plaintiff, the band council?  27 A    He is the one that signed this.  28 MR. MACKENZIE:  Yes, that's correct.  I am asking you as a  29 member of the band council whether you can identify  30 this as an action brought by the band council against  31 Canada.  32 THE COURT:  On your behalf?  33 MR. MACKENZIE:  34 Q    On your behalf?  35 A    He's the lawyers that done this.  That's why he put  3 6 my name on that.  37 MR. MACKENZIE:  My lord, this is not a litigation in the Supreme  38 Court of British Columbia but, in my submission, your  39 lordship can take judicial notice of proceedings  40 certainly started in the Supreme Court of British  41 Columbia and I would submit in this case also in the  42 Federal Court of Canada.  43 THE COURT:  Well, I — again, I don't understand the difficulty.  44 What's the problem, Mr. Rush?  45 MR. RUSH:  Well, I don't have a problem.  I am not going to -- I  46 have never seen this before myself until it arrives  47 here via the Federal Government document list. 5357  J. Morrison (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Mackenzie  1  THE  2  MR.  3  MR.  4  5  MR.  6  7  8  THE  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  MR.  23  24  25  26  THE  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  THE  40  41  THE  42  43  THE  44  THE  45  THE  46  47  COURT:  There has been no Notice to Admit?  RUSH:  Not on this document.  MACKENZIE:  This is -- no, this is Canada's document, my  lord.  RUSH:  So I am just reading this for the first time,  frankly.  But above and beyond that, my lord, what's  the relevance of this in this proceeding?  COURT:  Well, that I suppose might arise in argument.  Certainly there are allegations made on behalf of this  witness and others that speaking speculatively now  could give rise to estoppel, I suppose, and/or give  rise to an argument on admissions or something of that  kind, I don't know.  It seemed to me it is really  not -- not something that I could rule at this time is  inadmissible on the grounds of relevance.  What we are  doing is, we are just spinning our wheels on matters  of simple fact that shouldn't be a matter of dispute  at all, it seems to me.  I have to assume this is a  legitimate document, that all these things really  happened.  It just seems to me that the usual  exchanges between counsel haven't taken place again.  MACKENZIE:  Well, my lord, we have endeavoured to exchange  large -- we have sent a lot of documents over to be  admitted, it happened this was not included in them,  and that's the subject of correspondence.  COURT:  I think we have to get on to something else.  The  witness doesn't seem to remember it although it only  happened last year.  He doesn't seem to know anything  about it.  He is not going to -- I don't think -- I  think his evidence is he doesn't know anything about  this, although he is a plaintiff, which is remarkable  in itself, but there is nothing I can do about it.  You will have to prove this document in some other way  if you want to have it in.  This is the witness to put  it in through.  I couldn't read more from that  suggestion.  If the witness says he doesn't know, then  I have to take that at face value.  Mr. Morrison, you  don't know anything about this?  WITNESS:  Not -- not in front of me.  Anything I know, I  have to tell you.  COURT:  You see, Mr. Grant started a lawsuit naming you as  one of the plaintiffs just last year.  WITNESS:  Yeah.  COURT:  You don't know anything about that?  WITNESS:  No, not until today that I see it in front of me.  They could be in our office but we are not in the  office all the time, but I could get notice for this 535?  J. Morrison (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Mackenzie  1 in the letter and would not find it for what happened  2 here but I didn't have that notice.  3 MR. MACKENZIE:  My lord, may I submit that this be marked for  4 identification now?  5 THE COURT:  I don't see any point in that either.  6 MR. RUSH:  Well, my lord, I frankly agree with your initial  7 submission, I don't see any point in this whole  8 exchange.  I am prepared to it going in as an exhibit.  9 THE COURT:  Then we solve our problem.  Exhibit 398.  10 THE REGISTRAR:  398, my lord, tab 14.  11  12 (EXHIBIT 398 - TAB 14 GREEN DOC. BOOK FILED ACTION BY  13 GITANMAAX BAND VS. CANADA - BREACH OF TRUST DEC 1987)  14  15 MR. MACKENZIE:  16 Q    Referring to tab 15, my lord.  Mr. Morrison, this is  17 another action dated -- filed May 1, 1986 on behalf of  18 the Gitanmaax Band, and it's on page 3.  It says that  19 it relates to damages against the defendant Canada for  20 wrongful entry onto the plaintiff's lands and it talks  21 about the Kispiox Highway being widened, that's  22 Highway 49, in June 1980.  Do you recall that?  Do you  23 recall that litigation, Mr. Morrison?  Perhaps rather  24 than read the document, if you could just listen to my  25 question.  I don't mind you reading the document  26 but —  27 A    Well, I don't know anything about this.  It may  2 8 happen but I didn't know that one thing.  2 9 Q    Do you know Wilmer Johnson?  30 A    Yes.  31 Q    Was he a councillor of the Gitanmaax Band in 1986?  32 A    Oh, I don't know.  33 Q    You don't know.  You were a councillor of the  34 Gitanmaax Band in 1986, weren't you?  35 A    Yes.  36 MR. MACKENZIE:  My lord, I'd submit that statement of — I am  37 sorry, that writ of summons as the next exhibit just  38 under your lordship's ability to take judicial notice  39 to take notice of proceedings in the Supreme Court of  40 British Columbia.  41 THE COURT:  What do you say, Mr. Rush?  42 MR. RUSH:  There is a provision allowing you to do that and you  43 have already ruled on a similar kind of application.  44 Again, I say there is no relevance to this and, if  45 your lordship is not open to hearing an argument on  46 that subject now, then you will -- I will address you  47 on it later, but I say that all of these documents 5359  J. Morrison (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Mackenzie  1 relating to litigation by the band and the councillors  2 and so on is all irrelevant.  3 THE COURT:  It may be irrelevant, but in argument and in the  4 light of other evidence yet to be heard, it may become  5 relevant.  There will be no objection to it being  6 marked as an exhibit.  It will be Exhibit 399.  7 THE REGISTRAR:  Exhibit 399 tab 15.  8  9 (EXHIBIT 399 - TAB 15 GREEN DOC. BOOK BAND RESOLUTION  10 MAY 27, 1980)  11  12 MR. MACKENZIE:  That document has three pages and a cover page,  13 my lord.  14 THE COURT:  Yes.  15 MR. MACKENZIE:  And if you follow to pass the cover page to the  16 writ of summons, my lord, come -- come to the next  17 document.  That's still at tab 15 of the green binder.  18 THE COURT:  Yes.  19 MR. MACKENZIE:  20 Q    Mr. Morrison, this is a Band Council Resolution  21 dated May 27, 1980.  Is that your signature at the  22 bottom of that document?  23 A    Yes.  24 MR. MACKENZIE:  My lord, the next — my lord, that — before I  25 submit that as the next exhibit, the Band Council  26 Resolution refers to the enclosed agreement attached  27 to this B.C.R. and if you -- the next page starts the  28 agreement, my lord, as I understand it -- I mean as I  29 am instructed, and that's an agreement between Her  30 Majesty the Queen in the Right of the Province of  31 British Columbia and the Gitanmaax Band, and I refer  32 Mr. Morrison to page 3 of that agreement.  33 THE COURT:  Yes.  34 MR. MACKENZIE:  35 Q    And Mr. Morrison, is that your signature on page 3  36 of that agreement?  37 A    Yes.  38 THE COURT:  All right.  Well then, the resolution and the  39 attached agreement can be the next exhibit, 400.  40 THE REGISTRAR:  400.  41  42 (EXHIBIT 400 - TAB 15 GREEN DOC. BOOK BAND RESOLUTION MAY  43 27,1980 WITH ATTACHED AGREEMENT)  44  45 MR. MACKENZIE:  46 Q    Now, looking at page 3 of the agreement, there is a  47 name also beside yours, Arnie Shanos, S-h-a-n-o-s. 5360  J. Morrison (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Mackenzie  1 Was he the band manager at that time?  2 A    What year is this?  3 Q    This is 1980.  4 A    He didn't say on this one.  5 Q    He says he is the band manager right there.  Do you  6 agree with that?  7 A    Yes.  8 Q    Thank you.  This agreement dealt with compensation  9 to be paid to the Gitanmaax Band for land taken for  10 widening the Kispiox Highway; is that correct?  11 A    Yes.  12 Q    And attached -- referring to the agreement,  13 paragraph 1, there is a reference to Gitksan-Carrier  14 territory sets out in the attached map, and I refer to  15 the map attached and that's for your lordship's notes,  16 that's similar to Exhibit 113 in these proceedings.  17 THE COURT:  I am sorry, what is similar to 113?  18 MR. MACKENZIE:  My lord, the map attached to the agreement.  19 THE COURT:  Yes.  Oh, yes, yes.  20 MR. MACKENZIE:  Is Exhibit 113 in these proceedings.  21 THE COURT:  Yes, thank you.  Why is that map attached to this  22 document?  23 MR. MACKENZIE:  My lord, it's referred to on paragraph 1 of the  24 agreement, paragraph 1 of the agreement at the bottom  25 of that paragraph.  2 6 THE COURT:  Oh, yes.  27 MR. MACKENZIE:  Does your lordship have that reference?  2 8 THE COURT:  Oh, yes, thank you.  29 MR. MACKENZIE:  Now, my lord, I am referring to tab 21 in the  30 green binder.  31 THE COURT:  Sorry, tab number?  32 MR. MACKENZIE:  33 Q    21, my lord, that's Exhibit 26 in these proceedings.  34 And I refer you, Mr. Morrison, to page 8 of that  35 Exhibit 26.  Your name appears at the bottom of page 8  36 as one of the petitioners in this action and saying  37 that you are suing on behalf of yourself and the other  38 councillors and on behalf of the other members of the  39 Gitanmaax Indian band, the Gitanmaax Indian Band, and  40 the Gitanmaax Band Council.  Now, this petition on  41 page 35 sets out the relief sought, page 35  42 sub-paragraph (c), declaration that the suppliants  43 have a right to exclusive fishing at the traditional  44 fishing sites abovementioned according to Indian  45 Custom".  And now, Mr. Morrison, you were a Gitanmaax  46 Band Councillor in March 1983, the date of this  47 petition, weren't you? 5361  J. Morrison (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Mackenzie  1 A    Yes, I am band councillor.  I didn't see this  2 before.  I didn't have any copy of this.  3 Q    Do you recall at that time the petition being  4 brought to have a declaration of ownership of the  5 fishing sites on the Gitanmaax Reserve?  6 A    No, I didn't see this before.  7 Q    But you don't -- and you don't recall the --  8 A    No.  9 Q    -- the matter.  Well, Mr. Morrison, I am going to  10 suggest to you that this and the other -- this  11 petition was in part an application or petition by the  12 band to assert ownership -- to assert ownership of  13 fishing sites within the reserve.  Do you recall  14 anything about that?  15 A    No.  16 Q    All right.  And on -- let me refer back again  17 quickly on page -- on page 78 of that Petition of  18 Right, Exhibit 26 at the bottom.  One of the  19 petitioners is Victor Mowatt.  Do you know Victor  2 0 Mowatt?  21 A    Yes.  22 Q    And his chief's name is Woosim lax ha?  23 A    Yes.  24 MR. MACKENZIE:  Have a spelling for that.  25 MR. RUSH:  It is 83 on the plaintiff's list.  2 6 THE COURT:  Thank you.  27 MR. MACKENZIE:  28 Q    Mr. Morrison, can you agree with me that Victor  29 Mowatt is the hereditary chief whose territory -- on  30 whose territory the Gitanmaax Reserve is located?  31 A    I know he has the territory but I don't know which  32 one is that.  33 Q    Exhibit 5 for Identification in this trial shows the  34 territory off Woosim Lax ha as surrounding village of  35 Hazelton.  Are you aware that you live on the  36 territory claimed by Victor Mowatt?  37 A    No.  There is a lot of territory owned by him  38 anyway.  I don't know which one you are talking about.  39 Q    Do you know the Gitanmaax Reserve?  4 0 A    I know.  41 Q    It is on Victor Mowatt's traditional territory?  42 A    No, I don't know.  43 MR. MACKENZIE:  Thank you.  We will move on to another subject.  44 THE COURT:  Do you want to start something fresh or adjourn for  45 lunch?  46 MR. MACKENZIE:  This would be an appropriate time to adjourn,  47 your lordship. 5362  J. Morrison (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Mackenzie  1 THE COURT:  All right, thank you.  Two o'clock this afternoon.  2 THE REGISTRAR:  Order in court.  Court will adjourn until two.  3  4 (PROCEEDINGS ADJOURNED AT 12:28 P.M.)  5  6 I hereby certify the foregoing to be  7 a true and accurate transcript of the  8 proceedings herein, transcribed to the  9 best of my skill and ability.  10  11  12  13  14    15 TANNIS DEFOE, Official Reporter  16 United Reporting Service Ltd.  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33 (PROCEEDINGS RESUMED AT 2:00)  34  35 THE REGISTRAR: Order in court.  Ready to proceed, My Lord.  36 THE COURT:  Yes.  Thank you, Mr. Mackenzie.  37 MR. MACKENZIE:  Thank you, My Lord.  38 Your Lordship will see a blue volume in front of  39 you, that's Volume 2.  I'll be getting to that this  40 afternoon, My Lord.  41 THE COURT:  Thank you.  42 MR. MACKENZIE:  43 Q   Mr. Morrison, during your testimony in chief you  44 referred to Gordon Robinson's death in Kitwancool; do  45 you recall that?  46 A   Yes.  47 Q   And did he die in September 1983? 5363  J. Morrison (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Mackenzie  1 A   I couldn't -- I didn't have those record with me.  I  2 mean, I don't know what the exact date was, but I know  3 we have a feast on that death there.  4 Q   Can you recall that he died in late 1983?  5 A   Yeah, it was.  6 Q   Now, just to finish up the questions on the Gitanmaax  7 Band, as a band councillor you're aware that the band  8 has a water licence from the province of British  9 Columbia?  10 A   Gitanmaax Band you say?  11 Q   Yes?  12 A   Not that I know.  13 Q   And as a band councillor are you familiar with grants  14 made to the band council known as the B.C. Special  15 Vote?  16 A  What's that for?  17 Q   Well, it's money that's -- I'm instructed that it's  18 money that's credited to the band council every year  19 and it comes from the federal government.  Do you  20 recall seeing any information about that?  21 A  Well, there's a lot of funding through the band every  22 year, that I know.  23 Q   Do you recall?  24 A   It's all special education, things like that.  25 Q   Do you recall any funding referred to as B.C. Special?  26 A   No, never heard of it.  27 Q   In your testimony on Monday, you -- I have some  28 questions about hunting, and you spoke about your  29 hunting experience in your testimony on Monday at  30 Volume 82.  You mentioned that you are not guided by  31 the hunting seasons established by the Fish and  32 Wildlife Department; do you recall that testimony?  33 A   Yes.  34 Q   And you said also that you're guided by the  35 traditional boundaries, you don't go by the registered  36 boundaries; do you recall saying that?  37 A   Yes.  38 Q   And you also said that you go out hunting when you  39 need to go out hunting; is that --  40 A   Yes.  41 Q   -- what you said?  And you said in the old days -- I'm  42 sorry, you said there was an open season all year  43 round.  Did you mean in the old days or did you mean  44 today?  There's two questions there.  45 A  Well, it started in those days when there was Indian  46 people that first arrived on this -- on this -- where  47 the country is now is in Gitksan territory.  It's been 5364  J. Morrison (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Mackenzie  1 like that for -- for since the time was Indian people  2 are in this place.  We call it Gitksan.  3 Q   Today there are hunting seasons aren't there?  4 A   Yeah, it's just still the same today for us.  5 Q   It's still the same for the Gitksan today?  6 A  Well, it's in our law.  7 Q   Yes.  Now, let's speak about you personally.  You've  8 had a lot of hunting experience haven't you?  9 A   Yes.  10 Q   Do you follow the hunting season regulations?  11 A   Not on the regulation of Fish and Wildlife.  12 Q   We've already established, I think you agreed with me,  13 that you have spoken to Mr. Hoyer, the conservation  14 officer in New Hazelton, haven't you?  15 A   Yes, the one that -- in a certain extent, not this  16 particularly question you asked me.  17 Q   Yes, but you know him don't you?  18 A   Yeah, I know him.  19 Q   And do you use leg-hold traps on your trap line at  20 Meziadin Lake?  21 A   Yes.  Not now.  22 Q   You don't use them now?  23 A   No.  24 Q   No.  And there's a law against using leg-hold traps on  25 the trap lines isn't there?  26 A  Well, there are -- in those days, like they first  27 invent those traps you're talking about and later on  28 in the year they restrict it themselves and they're  29 not allowed the people to use it for certain things  30 which I don't know what the reason.  I'm telling you  31 how I'm using the leg-hold traps if you want to know  32 about it.  33 Q   But you don't use them anymore?  34 A   Not today.  35 Q   And you're aware that the moose hunting season  36 finishes in October is it?  37 A   I don't know.  38 Q   Under the Fish and Wildlife law?  39 A  Well, they're in -- in their own system.  40 Q   Yes?  41 A  And this is why they're trying to force to us to use  42 that.  43 Q   Yes, I understand.  But do you know that the Fish and  44 Wildlife have a hunting season for moose that ends in  45 the fall doesn't it?  46 A  Well, I don't keep track of that date because I'm not  47 using that. 5365  J. Morrison (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Mackenzie  1 Q   I see.  You don't know the date?  2 A   I don't know.  I'm not keep track of the date because  3 I'm not using those.  4 MR. MACKENZIE:   I understand.  Do you hunt —  5 THE COURT:  Mr. Morrison, are you telling me that you don't have  6 any idea about the hunting season for moose --  7 THE WITNESS:   Well, our —  8 THE COURT:  — whether you follow it or not?  9 THE WITNESS:   Well, the hunting season for us is the time when  10 we need to go out.  11 THE COURT:  No, no, I'm not talking about that.  I'm just asking  12 you, are you saying you don't have an awareness even  13 of what the hunting season is for other people other  14 than Gitksans?  15 THE WITNESS:   Well, I know myself when the hunting season  16 started.  It could be all year round --  17 THE COURT:  Yes?  18 THE WITNESS:   — unless you need it.  19 THE COURT:  I understand all that.  You see what I'm asking you  2 0 is are you saying you do not know what the white man's  21 moose hunting season is?  22 THE WITNESS:   Well, the —  23 THE COURT:  Because that's what you're telling Mr. Mackenzie.  24 THE WITNESS:   Well, they have notice and —  25 THE COURT:  Well, don't you know what those notices say?  26 THE WITNESS:   Well, they don't give it to me, and how did I  27 know if they don't give it to me?  28 THE COURT:  Well, that's what I'm asking you.  Do you say you  2 9 don't know?  30 THE WITNESS:   I don't know.  31 THE COURT:  All right.  32 MR. MACKENZIE:  33 Q   Do you ever hunt, and during your time as a hunter,  34 have you hunted moose during the winter season and  35 December and January?  36 A   Yeah, we are when we need it in the hunting ground.  37 Q   And would you agree with me that you know that's after  38 the white man's hunting season?  39 A  Well, if you referring to the hunting season, again  4 0 I'm going from my own date when I was hunting.  41 Q   Have you ever applied for a permit to hunt moose  42 during the winter?  43 A   I was one time way before that, before I live in  44 Gitanmaax because this is only requires for Indian  45 people, that's what they told me.  If you don't, you  46 going be to be thrown in jail, just to get you food  47 for your family. 5366  J. Morrison (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Mackenzie  Q   So you applied for a permit?  A   I applied for a permit and I got one only in bull  moose, but if you shoot cow moose it's still the same  thing you going to be charged with on that permit, and  that's why I didn't bother anymore because either way,  the way we look at it, in our law when you go out to  hunt you food you going to support your family.  And  if you're not going to support your family, what you  could do?  The only thing you can do is to go out and  support your family for you need and for your health,  as I stated in my affidavit, not only the things of on  your wealth.  Q   And referring to tab 22 in the green binder, Mr.  Morrison, is that a copy of the permit that you  received to hunt moose in January 1976?  I have the  original carbon copy if you have trouble reading the  document.  A   It's hard to read this copy here.  I can't read it.  Q   And looking at the next page there's a letter, copy of  a letter with a date January 5, 1976 stamped on it.  Did you have that letter written for you by the band  manager?  A   Yes.  MACKENZIE:   Mark the band — the band manager's letter, My  Lord, as the next exhibit.  COURT:  Well, has the witness agreed that it was sent on his  behalf?  MACKENZIE:  He said yes, My Lord.  COURT:  Did he?  I'm sorry, I didn't hear that.  All right.  The next -- that can be the next exhibit.  REGISTRAR: It will be 401, My Lord.  Is that at tab 22?  MACKENZIE:  Yes.  Thank you.  (EXHIBIT 401: Tab 22, letter dated January 5, 1976)  MACKENZIE:  Q   My Lord, I'm handing to Mr. Morrison the original  photocopy of the permit dated January 5, 1976, signed  by Mr. Frank Guillon, G-u-i-1-l-o-n, and that permit  number is A01625.  Now, Mr. Morrison, is that the permit that was  issued to you in 1976 or a copy of it?  A   Yes.  MACKENZIE:   Next exhibit, My Lord.  COURT:  4 02.  RUSH:  You're putting the original in?  MACKENZIE:  Did you want the original?  1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  MR.  25  26  THE  27  28  MR.  29  THE  30  31  THE  32  MR.  33  34  35  36  MR.  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  MR.  45  THE  46  MR.  47  MR. 5367  J. Morrison (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Mackenzie  1 MR. RUSH:  Yes, I think so.  That's what he identified.  2 THE REGISTRAR: That's 402, tab 22.  3  4 (EXHIBIT 402: Tab 22, permit of James Morrison dated  5 January 5, 1976)  6  7 MR. MACKENZIE:  8 Q   Your son's name is Vernon Morrison; is that correct?  9 A  Where'd you find that?  10 Q   Is your son's name Vernon Morrison?  11 A  Where'd you find that Vernon Morrison?  12 THE COURT:  I'm sorry, I can't hear you, Mr. Morrison.  13 THE WITNESS:   Where'd you found the name Vernon Morrison?  14 MR. MACKENZIE:  Mr. Morrison's asking where did I find the name  15 Vernon Morrison, My Lord.  16 THE COURT:  Yes.  17 THE WITNESS:   Is it on here?  18 MR. MACKENZIE:  19 Q   No, I'm just asking you.  20 A  Well, it wasn't on here, so I won't answer that.  21 THE COURT:  It's got nothing to do with the document, Mr.  22 Morrison, it's a new question.  23 THE WITNESS:   Oh, this is —  24 MR. MACKENZIE:  25 Q   I'm sorry, I've finished with that document.  26 A   Oh, okay.  Sorry.  27 Q   Is your son's name Vernon Morrison?  28 A   Yes.  2 9 Q   And where does he live?  30 A   He live in Hazelton.  31 Q   Does he live with you now?  32 A   No.  33 Q   He's married is he?  34 A   No.  35 Q   And to your knowledge has he also applied for permits  36 to hunt moose in the winter?  37 A   I don't know.  You have to ask him yourself.  38 Q   You don't know about that?  39 A   I don't know anything about it.  40 Q   I refer you to tab 26 in the green binder, and going  41 to the last page in that -- at that tab, there's an  42 application dated January 3, 1979 signed by Vernon  43 Morrison.  Is that your son's signature?  44 A   I don't know.  You have to ask him yourself.  I don't  45 know what kind of signature -- I don't know what your  46 signature is.  47 Q   You don't recognize that as your son's signature? 536?  J. Morrison (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Mackenzie  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  No, I recognize my own signature, that's all.  Okay.  I refer you now to tab 25 and the last document  at that tab.  Now, Mr. Sharnoss was the band manager  of the Gitanmaax Band in 1981; correct? That's  S-h-a-r-n-o-s-s I think.  Do you recall your testimony  this morning that Mr. Sharnoss was the band --  Yes.  manager  9  A  THE COURT:  He was the band manager.  Now, Kelly Morrison is Sam Morrison's son isn't he?  No, I don't know.  I know Kelly.  Yes?  I know Kelly.  That's your brother's son isn't it?  What do you want out of this?  No, I just want to ask you, Kelly Morrison is your  brother's son isn't he?  Well, this is what I'm asking, see I don't know  what -- you getting into somebody else's.  You got to  ask me first --  Mr. Morrison, really we're not getting along very  well here.  You're not entitled to fix the rules as to  which question you'll answer and which one you won't.  It's a very simple question.  Is Kelly Morrison your  brother's son?  THE WITNESS:   Yeah, my brother Sam.  MR. MACKENZIE:  Q   Your -- Kelly Morrison is your brother Sam's son;  correct?  Yes.  Now, you were a band councillor of the Gitanmaax Band  in 1981 weren't you?  Yes.  Now, this letter that we're looking at at tab 25 is on  Gitanmaax Band Council letterhead; do you see that?  Yes.  Yes.  And it's signed on behalf of the Gitanmaax Band  Council; do you see that?  Yes.  Yes.  So you'll agree with me that this letter was  sent out on behalf of the band council?  Yes.  Next exhibit, My Lord.  Can I have the date, please?  The letter itself is undated.  There are  handwritten notes at the bottom of the letter and Mr.  Morrison's admission I don't think relates to those  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  MR. MACKENZIE  THE REGISTRAR  MR. MACKENZIE 5369  J. Morrison (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Mackenzie  1 handwritten notes, but --  2 THE COURT:  This letter will be Exhibit 403.  3 THE REGISTRAR: 403.  4  5 (EXHIBIT 403: Tab 25, an undated letter on Gitanmaax  6 Band Council letterhead)  7  8 MR. MACKENZIE:  9 Q   Now, are you aware that in January 1981 Kelly Morrison  10 received a permit to kill a moose?  11 A   I don't know if Kelly did or not.  You just can show  12 me the permit, but I still -- I don't know.  If he  13 applied, he applied for himself.  14 Q   I was referring you to the permit -- I refer you to  15 the permit dated January 12, 1981, which is at tab 25,  16 and it's just in front of Exhibit 403.  I have the  17 original carbon copy.  Can you agree that Kelly  18 Morrison received that permit?  19 A   I don't know.  I got nothing to do with this permit.  20 It's somebody else's, you know, it's not mine.  21 Q   Now, since you applied for the permit, which is  22 Exhibit 402, have you shot moose in the winter since  23 then?  24 A   Yes.  25 Q   And can you -- can you confirm also that other members  26 of the Gitanmaax Indian Band shoot moose during the  27 winter?  28 A   I don't know.  It's none of my business to find out  29 anything that's happened there.  It's up to them to  30 know where they're going to be hunting, not me.  I'm  31 only referring for myself.  32 Q   Yes.  Have you seen any other moose killed during the  33 winter?  34 A  Well, that's the same answer too.  No.  It has to  35 be -- if I go hunting I know when I kill moose.  36 Q   Yes?  37 A  And I can't -- I can't say on behalf of the other  38 people.  I only know time when I'll be hunting myself.  39 Q   Yes.  Well, that's what I'm asking you.  Have you seen  40 other Indians killing moose in the winter?  41 A   No.  42 Q   Your answer is no?  43 A   No.  44 Q   What is your answer, please?  45 A   No.  46 Q   Thank you.  Have you seen other moose killed along the  47 Kispiox road for example? 5370  J. Morrison (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Mackenzie  1 A   No.  2 Q   In the winter?  3 A   No.  4 Q   No.  Have you seen a moose killed in the winter along  5 the Meziadin Highway, Highway 37?  6 A  Well, there's a lot of moose killed on the road.  7 Q   Yes?  8 A   You can see that.  9 Q   Yes.  10 A  A truck hitting them all the tame.  11 Q   Have you seen evidence of a moose being shot during  12 the winter along that highway?  13 A   No, not there.  14 Q   Do you know of any members of the -- of your  15 Kitwancool wolf clan who have shot moose during the  16 winter?  17 A   Yes.  18 Q   Yes.  And they've shot moose during the winter at your  19 territory have they?  20 A   Yes.  21 Q   And have you seen any -- I'm sorry, are you aware of  22 the fact that cow moose have been killed by Indians  23 during the winter in that area?  24 A   No.  25 Q   Are you aware of -- personally are you aware of  26 charges laid by Mr. Hoyer, the conservation officer,  27 for killing moose out of season?  28 A   Yes.  29 Q   Yes.  And are you personally aware that he has charged  30 Indians with killing moose out of season?  31 A   Yes.  32 Q   And can you confirm for His Lordship that Mr. Hoyer  33 regularly checks trucks that are driving on the  34 highways in that area?  35 A   Yes.  36 Q   Yes.  And he checks to see whether they're carrying  37 loaded rifles, you know that?  38 A   Yes.  39 Q   He also checks to see whether they've killed a moose  40 in the winter?  41 A   Yes.  42 Q   Yes.  And if they've killed a moose during the winter  43 without a permit, can you confirm personally from your  44 personal knowledge that he would seize that moose  45 meat?  46 A   I don't -- he never charged me, so I wouldn't know  47 about that. 5371  J. Morrison (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Mackenzie  1 Q   And are you personally aware that Indians who have  2 been charged have been fined for killing the moose out  3 of season?  4 A   I don't know.  I said never been charged and I don't  5 know what -- what it was.  It's some other people who  6 were charged and you got to get it from them.  7 Q   Now, you'll agree with me that there are a lot of  8 white hunters coming into the area to hunt now?  9 A  Well, there are anyway.  10 Q   Yes.  And can you agree with me also that the -- as a  11 result of white hunters coming in and Indian hunters  12 hunting there is increased pressure on the wildlife  13 resources?  14 A  Well, there are white hunters hunt especially up north  15 and all the -- especially trophy hunters and other  16 hunters who are paid a high fee and they hunting  17 licence.  They're the ones that really increase  18 from -- from -- as you know yourself, you working for  19 the government, and you know how much licence has been  20 gone out every year in order to hunt moose and all  21 those other animals, and that's where it's increased.  22 And you know one time that I check with the Fish and  23 Wildlife up north and they told me how much moose was  24 taken out of there, but the pilot told me what exactly  25 was taken out of there.  This is why I know it's  26 higher all the time compared to this, our people's  27 hunting.  You know, you never believe it, but this  28 is -- this is what happened.  It's really high and  29 that's why all those things has to be looked into.  30 It's not just the people that around here.  I mean way  31 from Germany and all those things went up to north and  32 I think you should look into it.  33 Q   Can you agree with me then -- can you agree with me  34 that the Wildlife Act is passed to protect the  35 animals, the animal population?  36 A  Well, that's what -- that's what they say anyway.  37 Q   Now, finally, on this general subject, can you agree  38 with me, Mr. Morrison, that the RCMP enforces laws in  39 Hazelton?  40 A   For what purpose?  41 Q   Well, you'll agree that there's a RCMP office at New  42 Hazelton?  43 A   Yes.  44 Q   Yes.  And the RCMP enforces the criminal laws in that  45 area?  46 A   Yes.  47 Q   And they also enforce laws on the Gitanmaax Reserve 5372  J. Morrison (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Mackenzie  1 sometimes?  2 A   Yes.  3 Q   Yes.  Now, moving onto a new subject, I want to ask  4 you briefly some questions again about the Tribal  5 Council, and you -- when did you first become involved  6 with the Tribal Council?  7 A   I couldn't remember the year when I started.  8 Q   I think that we discussed this briefly yesterday.  You  9 became involved sometime after you became a band  10 councillor at Gitanmaax; is that correct?  11 A  Well, before that.  I know I was off and on there just  12 helping those people there, our people.  13 Q   And the Tribal Council was very concerned about the  14 land claims weren't they?  15 A   Yes.  16 Q   And they were doing research on the land claims  17 weren't they?  18 A   Yeah, they do.  19 Q   They were -- they wanted to record the boundaries of  20 the Gitksan people, didn't they?  21 A   Yes.  22 Q   And to do that they had to go out and speak to the  23 elders didn't they?  24 A   Yes.  25 Q   And the reason was that the information hadn't been  26 written down before had it?  27 A  What -- what was written down?  28 Q   I'm sorry, the information about the boundaries had  29 not been written down before?  30 A   Yeah, well, they don't -- these people they don't need  31 to write it down because they have it in their mind,  32 and you -- you can't tell them.  If you show them a  33 paper they won't go by that, the elder people.  34 Q   The elder people knew where the boundaries were?  35 A   They knew where they are anyways so they don't have to  36 worry about writing them down.  37 Q   Can you agree with me that they didn't tell the white  38 people and the government where the boundaries were?  39 A  Well, how would they know if they didn't know the  4 0 Indian name?  41 MR. MACKENZIE:   I'm sorry, I'm asking for personal knowledge.  42 THE COURT:  That's a very very general question though --  43 MR. MACKENZIE:  Yes, it is a general question.  44 THE COURT:  — almost impossible to answer.  45 THE WITNESS:   Did you get that?  46 MR. MACKENZIE:  47 Q   I'm sorry, I didn't hear your -- 5373  J. Morrison (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Mackenzie  1 A   How did you know if you know the Indian name? They  2 told them about the Indian name, but they didn't know  3 where they're at.  If you told the Fish and Wildlife  4 where your trap line is and they start drawing a  5 line --  6 Q   Yes.  7 A   -- and because you tell them the Indian name and  8 they're still drawing the line, some of them a  9 straight line as you notice on some of those maps,  10 it's not accurate.  What they're doing is they don't  11 know what the name of Indian people is what I'm  12 saying.  They don't need the map to do that.  They  13 have it on their mind and they have each other, they  14 know each other, and they know where the boundary is.  15 Q   Well, when you were -- you applied for your registered  16 trap line in 194 — in the 1940's, late 1940's, didn't  17 you?  18 A   Yes.  19 Q   And you didn't tell the Fish and Wildlife about the  20 traditional territories then did you?  21 A  Well, how I can tell them because they didn't know  22 what -- I just finished tell you now where the Indian  23 boundary is they don't know.  You tell them and they  24 just start drawing the line and that's it.  25 Q   So it's your personal knowledge that they were not --  26 they did not understand the Indian names?  27 A   They didn't understand that.  28 Q   And so they did not know the Indian boundaries; is  29 that correct?  30 A   They didn't know.  31 Q   Now, you participated in the research -- you helped to  32 record and research the boundaries?  33 A   Yeah, I do, on that time when we doing the flight  34 there.  35 Q   Yes.  And now you're referring to the helicopter  36 flight you took with Mr. Sterritt?  37 A   Yes.  38 Q   And on that occasion you flew in the Bear Lake area  39 didn't you?  40 A   Past Bear Lake.  First -- first group is the ones that  41 done Bear Lake, and the second group was done up north  42 where Waiget's territory is.  There's two group  43 involved.  I mean there's a lot of group which I got  44 nothing to do with, I'm only referring for that -- for  45 that photo that we take ourselves, that's the only  46 thing.  47 Q   The first group was a flight that you went on in the 5374  J. Morrison (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Mackenzie  1 Bear Lake area?  2 A  Well, there's so many groups before that.  3 Q   I see.  4 A   You can't tell.  See, my only referring for what I'm  5 working on before.  6 Q   I see.  Well, can I put it this way, that on at least  7 one occasion you took a flight with Neil Sterritt to  8 record and research the boundaries in the Tuudaadii  9 Lake area and then the areas referred to in your  10 affidavit; is that correct?  11 A   Yes, that's the only thing that was in my affidavit  12 and the map what I have.  That's the only thing.  13 Q   And you also spoke to Neil Sterritt on several  14 occasions didn't you to tell him about the boundaries?  15 A   Not in that time.  In some cases, but not full time  16 work.  If you ask me something on that boundary that's  17 what -- only thing what we doing.  It's not full time,  18 but sometimes it's just like that, and that time it's  19 only four days.  20 Q   And you met -- you were present when Neil Sterritt  21 spoke to other elders about the boundaries in the  22 north?  23 A   Yes.  24 MR. MACKENZIE:   And can you agree with me, and this is a  25 general question, can you agree with me that different  26 elders had different views on the boundaries?  27 MR. RUSH:  Well, excuse me, I object to this, unless the witness  28 is asked whether in the presence of other chiefs there  29 were differing views about the boundaries.  30 MR. MACKENZIE:  That's my question, My Lord.  31 MR. RUSH:  No, that wasn't.  I mean, I think the questions have  32 been --  33 THE COURT:  Can you put the question that way, Mr. Mackenzie?  34 MR. MACKENZIE:  35 Q   Can you agree with me that during your meetings with  36 the various chiefs, the chiefs had different views on  37 the boundaries?  38 A  What different views you talking about?  39 Q   I'm saying that there were sometimes differing  40 opinions about the boundaries in certain places?  41 A   Not -- I've said before, they knew about it and they  42 have -- if you have your boundaries, you should know  43 your boundaries, and you can tell the other chiefs  44 what you boundary is.  45 Q   And you attended meetings in Bear Lake with Neil  46 Sterritt?  47 A   Yes. 5375  J. Morrison (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Mackenzie  1 Q   You met with the people?  2 A   Not on Bear Lake.  3 Q   Oh, I'm sorry, where was that?  4 A   You referring about that trip now?  5 Q   Well, no, I was referring to other meetings you had to  6 discuss the boundaries.  Did you go and discuss the  7 boundaries with the people at Bear Lake?  8 A   Not —  9 Q   No?  10 A   -- there was trip, as I say before, there's a lot of  11 trips before me.  I'm only just gone for a few days at  12 a time --  13 Q   I understand.  14 A   -- and a lot of other people.  The chief always travel  15 with Neil, and many other trips --  16 Q   Yes?  17 A   -- at that time, so they focus on the boundary.  18 Q   Yes.  Well, just speaking about you personally, you  19 attended a meeting with Neil Sterritt at Bear Lake to  20 discuss the boundaries didn't you?  21 A   No, not on Bear Lake.  That's what I'm telling you.  22 Q   You attended a meeting at Fort Babine with Neil  23 Sterritt to discuss the boundaries?  24 A   Yes.  25 Q   And that was in 1983?  26 A   I couldn't remember the year of that.  27 Q   And did you attend a meeting with Neil Sterritt at  28 Takla Lake?  29 A   Yes.  30 Q   Yes. And that was 1983?  31 A   I couldn't remember the year of that.  32 Q   And what you were doing on those occasions was  33 discussing the eastern boundaries of the land claim  34 with the people who lived in those villages weren't  35 you?  36 A   Yes.  37 Q   Yes.  And will you agree with me that the people at  38 Takla Lake Band claimed the area around Bear Lake?  39 A   They're the Gitksan people.  40 Q   Yes.  You know that they have reserves at Bear Lake?  41 A  Well, I didn't -- I didn't know there was reserves  42 there.  43 Q   You don't know about the Takla Lake Band Reserves at  44 Bear Lake?  45 A   No.  46 Q   Okay.  Mr. Morrison, you recall in your mind the  47 meeting with the Takla Lake people when you and Neil 5376  J. Morrison (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Mackenzie  1  2  A  3  Q  4  5  A  6  Q  7  8  9  A  10  11  Q  12  13  14  A  15  16  17  Q  18  19  20  21  A  22  23  24  Q  25  26  A  27  28  Q  29  30  A  31  Q  32  A  33  Q  34  35  36  A  37  Q  38  A  39  Q  40  41  A  42  Q  43  A  44  45  Q  46  A  47  THE COURT  Sterritt were there?  You can remember it?  Yeah, I attend at one meeting there.  And did they discuss their reserves during that  meeting?  Not reserve.  No.  Are you aware that there's a Takla Lake Band  Reserve at Fort Connolly at the northern tip of Bear  Lake?  No, I don't.  We didn't -- we didn't focus on the  reserve.  I understand. Now, I'm asking you, generally, are you  aware of the Bear Lake Reserve at Fort Connolly on the  northern tip of Bear Lake?  No.  As I say, we don't -- we don't go there for that  meeting on the reserve.  We go to that hunting ground.  That's the only purpose in that meeting.  Well, can we leave the meeting at Takla Lake then  please and go on to another question, which is are you  personally aware of the Takla Lake Reserve at Fort  Connolly on Bear Lake?  Well, as I say, I don't -- I don't aware with  anythings we talking about, the boundaries north where  the -- where their boundary is.  Could you tell me whether you know that reserve or you  do not know that reserve?  I don't know anything with it.  As I say, we don't  talk about it.  Okay.  And do you know about the Takla Lake Band  Reserve on the Sustat River?  No.  And Bear River?  No.  Now, Mr. Morrison, I'm instructed that there are 11  reserves of the Takla Lake Band around the Bear Lake  area within the land claims area; do you know that?  No.  No.  You have no knowledge of that at all?  No.  Okay.  Do you know that there are Indian people living  at Fort Connolly and Bear Lake?  Yeah, there's people there.  And there's a family there.  Do you know them?  I don't know.  I heard about they have somebody living  there.  I don't know who they are.  You've never been there to talk to them or meet them?  No.  :  What's the name of the family? 5377  J. Morrison (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Mackenzie  1 MR. MACKENZIE:  Well, I didn't mention it.  2 THE COURT:  I thought you mentioned it.  3 MR. MACKENZIE:  4 Q   Do you know the Patricks, Bob Patrick, Patrick Bob?  5 A   I know Joe Patrick.  6 Q   Does he live at Bear Lake?  7 A   I don't know where he lives now.  8 Q   Can you agree with me, Mr. Morrison, that during the  9 All Clans' Feast at Burns Lake on April 7, 1987 there  10 were people from the Takla Lake Band present?  11 A   Yeah, there was people there.  12 Q   And can you agree with me that those people talked  13 about their territories around Bear Lake and Tuudaadii  14 Lake?  15 A   Yes.  16 Q   And can you agree with me further that some of those  17 people had their ancestors buried in cemeteries near  18 Tuudaadii Lake?  19 A   I didn't aware with that.  2 0 Q   Do you know Madeline French?  21 A   No.  22 Q   Do you recall she was at the meeting at Burns Lake at  23 the All Clans' Feast?  24 A   They probably were there, but I didn't know them.  25 Q   You didn't know her?  2 6 A   No.  27 Q   Well, can you agree with me that the Takla Lake Band,  28 to your knowledge, is not a member of the -- I'm  29 sorry, I'm rephrase that question.  Do you know that  30 the Takla Lake Band is a member of the Carrier Sekani  31 Tribal Council?  32 A  Well, not all of them.  There's some Gitksan people  33 there.  34 Q   Can you -- do you know that the band is part of the  35 Carrier Sekani Tribal Council?  36 A   I don't know.  It's -- I got no idea.  It's none of my  37 business to interfere with them anything, to ask them.  38 I won't know anything about that band.  39 Q   Well, the reason I ask is because you spoke about the  40 All Clans' Feast at Burns Lake and it was the Carrier  41 Sekani Tribal Council and the bands that would have  42 met with you at that feast wasn't it?  43 A   Yes, and we only referring to that land and the  44 blanket, as I stated on there, what I explained to the  45 people there, what are the view of the other chiefs.  46 Q   Yes?  47 A   This is what I'm only referring, not for all those 537?  J. Morrison (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Mackenzie  1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  people that were sitting there.  Q   Were you at the -- all three days of the meeting at  Burns Lake or were you just there -- how long were you  there?  A  Well, I was there one night.  That's the only thing  that I know at the feast, only one night feast.  Q   Yes.  Going on to another topic.  You spoke about the  Kisgagas Reserve during your evidence didn't you?  A   Yes.  Q   And that's where you used to go with your father;  correct?  A   Yes.  Q   And now there's a road up to that reserve isn't there?  A   Yes.  Q   And have you driven along that road up to the Kisgagas  Reserve?  A   Yes.  Q   Yes.  And you have a cabin at Kispiox don't you?  A   Yes.  Q   And you go there in the summer generally don't you?  A   Oh, any time of year.  Q   Yes.  Well, no one lives full time at Kisgagas now do  they?  A  Well, some people do.  Q   Can you name some people who live full time in  Kisgagas?  A   There's Maclean.  Q   Joshua Maclean?  A   Yes.  Q   He's there all year round?  A  All year round fishing and hunting all -- they have  their cabins there too.  Q   He lives there all year round?  A  All year round.  That's all they doing is hunting.  Q   Excuse me, does Joshua Maclean live on the Gitanmaax  Reserve?  A   Yes.  Q   Yes.  You mean he goes up to Kisgagas to hunt doesn't  he?  A   Yes.  Q   Yes.  Anyone else?  A   That's only person I know, maybe some other people,  but they have a cabin, that's how I know that.  Q   Yes?  A   Only referring what I know, not what -- I'm guessing  what has happened.  Q   I appreciate that.  Thank you.  And there's a bridge 5379  J. Morrison (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Mackenzie  1 across the river there?  2 A   Yes.  3 Q   Kisgagas.  4 Now, do you remember when that road up to Kisgagas  5 was built in 1951?  6 A   Not exactly, but I know they were built at that time  7 some years, but -- which I couldn't remember offhand  8 when they were building it, that's the Fishery when  9 there's a slide there.  10 MR. MACKENZIE:  Yes.  11 THE COURT:  Did you say it was built in 1951?  12 MR. MACKENZIE:  Yes, My Lord.  13 MR. RUSH:  That's what the questionner said, not the witness.  14 THE WITNESS:   Yes.  15 MR. MACKENZIE:  16 Q   Well, I think you say it was built by the Department  17 of Fisheries?  18 A   Fisheries, yes.  19 Q   And it was built because there was a slide on the  20 Babine River, right?  21 A   Yes.  22 Q   Yes.  And it was stopping the salmon from going up  2 3 wasn't it?  24 A   Yes.  25 Q   So the Fisheries Department had a road built right in  26 through Kisgagas to the slide area didn't they?  27 A   Yes.  28 Q   Now, My Lord, I refer to tab B, Exhibit 379, where  29 that road is illustrated, and just looking at the base  30 map on Exhibit 379, Mr. Morrison, and looking at  31 Kisgagas Indian Reserve, that's right at the -- on the  32 Babine River there; correct?  33 A   Xsugwin liginsxw.  34 MR. MACKENZIE:   Mr. Morrison gave the Indian name for the  35 Babine River, and what's the number please?  36 MR. RUSH:  I think it's 1156.  37 MR. MACKENZIE:  38 Q   And there's a road going through the reserve and down  39 to a point on the Babine River marked "big slide"; can  40 you see that?  41 A   I couldn't see the big slide there.  I can follow the  42 river.  43 Q   Beg your pardon, yes, right there.  Yes?  44 A   Yes.  45 MR. MACKENZIE:   Just where the Babine — the name Babine  46 starts.  My Lord, do you have that reference in the  47 lower left-hand corner? 5380  J. Morrison (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Mackenzie  1 THE COURT:  Yes.  2 MR. MACKENZIE:  Mr. Morrison, you're pointing to that now and  3 I'm going to put an "X" at that point where you're  4 pointing.  5 THE COURT:  This is the big slide?  6 MR. MACKENZIE:  Yes, My Lord, on the base map.  The number, as I  7 understand it, in the word list for the Babine River  8 is number 1126.  9 MR. RUSH:  That's right.  10 THE COURT:  Thank you.  11 MR. RUSH:  I was off by one number.  12 MR. MACKENZIE:  13 Q   Now, Mr. Morrison, people going to Kisgagas now drive  14 along that road as you do, don't they, to get to  15 Kisgagas?  16 A   They -- they driving up there.  17 Q   And there's a lot of logging along that road now isn't  18 there?  19 A   Yes.  20 MR. MACKENZIE:   Yes.  21 THE COURT:  Where does the road start?  22 THE WITNESS:   Starts at Salmon River.  23 MR. MACKENZIE:  24 Q   Could you tell His Lordship how you get to Salmon  25 River from Hazelton?  26 A   You turn off at the sign, they call it Kispiox Road,  27 turn to your right going down to Hazelton.  28 Q   It's just outside of Hazelton where you turn off the  2 9 highway?  30 A   Yes.  Yes, and it's about a mile and a quarter and it  31 turns off, the sign says Salmon River.  32 Q   So can you agree with me it takes about what, an hour  33 to drive up, an hour and a half to get up to Kisgagas  34 from the turn-off at Hazelton?  35 A   It could be more than that.  36 Q   Depending if the road's open?  37 A   Yes.  38 Q   Two hours?  39 A  About two hours, two and a half hours.  4 0 Q   And do you remember the Salvation Army church at  41 Kisgagas?  42 A   No, there's no Salvation Army up there.  43 Q   Do you remember there was a church up there?  44 A   Yeah, there was a church there.  45 Q   Which church was that?  4 6 A   I can't remember offhand the name of that church,  47 but -- the Church Army. It's marked right inside the 5381  J. Morrison (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Mackenzie  1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  building now, Church Army.  Q   Church Army?  A   Yeah, Church Army, not Salvation Army.  Q   Oh, I see, Church Army, yes.  At tab 18 of the green  binder I have the official plan of the Kisgagas Indian  Reserve, and My Lord, I would submit that as an  exhibit, subject to Mr. Rush's criteria and conditions  discussed earlier this morning.  I'm showing Mr.  Morrison the original copy of that, or my original  copy from the Land Registry office.  A  What year is this?  MR. MACKENZIE:   This is an early year, this is surveyed in 1898  and approved in 1899, and it shows Shedin Creek coming  down from the -- well, My Lord, perhaps I shouldn't go  into the details now, but I'm instructed, My Lord,  that that's an official plan of the Kisgagas Indian  Reserve and I would submit that as an exhibit for  identification, subject to Mr. Rush's criteria.  THE COURT:  All right.  Is that accepted, Mr. Rush?  MR. RUSH:  Well, firstly I don't know anything about it being  official.  Somebody wrote on this copy, "Copy of  official plan of the Kisgagas IR plan 7 Cassiar."  Apart from that -- but the document is entitled "Plan  of the Kisgagas Indian Reserve, Cassiar District,  British Columbia.", and there's some writing on it in  the lower right-hand corner which indicates a date of  August 26, 1899.  As I say, I don't accept this  document as proving anything, but on the basis that  THE  MR.  THE  THE  THE  THE  THE  THE  apparently this was lodged in the  for some reason  COURT  RUSH:  the Land Registry office, I'm not going to take an  objection that it shouldn't go in.  I think it should  be an exhibit for identification.  All right.  And perhaps at some time the other details will be  proved.  COURT:  All right.  This will be Exhibit 403 I think it is.  REGISTRAR: 404, My Lord —  COURT:  4 04.  REGISTRAR: — for identification.  COURT:  Yes.  REGISTRAR: Thank you.  (EXHIBIT 404 FOR IDENTIFICATION: Map plan of Kisgegas  Indian Reserve)  THE COURT:  Excuse me, what was 403?  THE REGISTRAR: 403 was the letter, undated letter. 5382  J. Morrison (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Mackenzie  1 THE COURT:  Tab 11?  2 THE REGISTRAR: Tab 25.  3 THE COURT:  Oh, thank you.  All right.  Is this a convenient  4 time to adjourn, Mr. --  5 MR. MACKENZIE:  Yes, My Lord.  6 THE COURT:  I notice that I have the pleasure of both Mr.  7 Macaulay and Mr. Rush here this afternoon.  Is there  8 any chance we could discuss that map?  I would have  9 found it very convenient if I had a map to relate  10 plans A and B.  That might be of some assistance.  11 Perhaps counsel can talk about it during the  12 adjournment.  Thank you.  13 THE REGISTRAR: Order in court.  Court will recess.  14  15 (PROCEEDINGS ADJOURNED FOR THE AFTERNOON RECESS)  16  17 I hereby certify the foregoing to  18 be a true and accurate transcript  19 of the proceedings herein to the  20 best of my skill and ability.  21  22  23 Tanita S. French  24 Official Reporter  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47 5383  J. Morrison (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Mackenzie  1 (PROCEEDINGS RESUMED PURSUANT TO AN ADJOURNMENT)  2  3 THE REGISTRAR:  Order in court.  4 THE COURT:  Mr. Mackenzie.  5 MR. MACKENZIE:  6 Q    Yes.  Just to complete the subject about Kisgagas.  7 My lord, at tab 13 of the green binder, volume 1,  8 there is a document relating to that road in your  9 lordship's question about the date of construction of  10 the roads to Kisgagas, tab 13 of the green binder.  My  11 lord, the first document there is a Federal Privy  12 Council Order transferring -- it's dated November 29,  13 1957 transferring the road administration to the  14 Province of British Columbia.  Then three pages in  15 there is a British Columbia Order in Council 1338  16 dated May 29, 1956, and first paragraph -- and that  17 comments that the easement was originally granted in  18 1951.  And I am instructed that this is the road that  19 was built to the Kisgagas Indian Reserve and through  20 it to the slide area appears at the bottom of the  21 legal description.  Now, my lord, I would submit that  22 these two documents as exhibits subject to obtaining a  23 certification or certified copy if my friend requires  24 certification.  2 5 THE COURT:  Mr. Rush.  26 MR. RUSH:  Well, I don't require a certification, that's what I  27 don't require, but neither do I necessarily accept all  28 the facts that are asserted in this document, so as  29 far as authenticity goes, I don't object.  I wish to  30 state on the face of the record --  31 THE COURT:  They don't prove the date of the construction.  32 MR. RUSH:  That's right.  That's the sort of thing.  An  33 assertion or whereas may be stated in here but I don't  34 accept that what is said here necessarily is so  35 without something more.  36 THE COURT:  All right.  Well, these documents can be 405 and 406  37 but for the limited purpose that it has been described  38 by Mr. Rush.  Certainly couldn't get a conviction on a  39 summary conviction offence on some of these documents.  40 MR. MACAULAY:  My lord, this isn't my exhibit and I am not going  41 to be relying on that document.  I don't know if I  42 have ever seen it before but it brings up an important  43 part, and that is the effect of tendering an archival  44 document if that -- I don't know if this is archival.  45 MR. MACKENZIE:  No, it is not archival, my lord.  4 6 MR. MACAULAY:  But we will be coming to archival documents and I  47 will be submitting -- I think perhaps we should have 5384  J. Morrison (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Mackenzie  1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  MR.  THE  MR.  THE  MR.  THE  it out between the plaintiffs and the defendants what  their respectful positions are.  I will be submitting  that the archival documents that the Attorney General  of Canada relies upon prove the facts stated in them.  They are not there just to show that a letter was  written on the 3rd of May, 1983.  We will be using  them to prove that the things -- the acts described in  those documents were performed, reports were true and  so on.  There seems to be some doubt in my friend's  mind about that proposition.  No doubt in my mind at all about that.  I reject the  proposition.  No doubt.  Well, I have been aware of an agreement between  counsel for sometime that archival documents will be  admitted into evidence.  MACAULAY:  There isn't one.  There is no agreement because  of this.  RUSH:  That's not right.  MACAULAY:  That's the reason, I won't agree —  RUSH:  Well, there is no agreement.  MACAULAY:  — to reverse the law.  COURT:  I believe there is an agreement between the  plaintiff and the Province that archival documents are  admissible in evidence without proof, authenticity.  MACKENZIE:  I am sorry, my lord, there is no agreement.  COURT:  I believe I am in complete misapprehension because  counsel have been acting as if there was such an  agreement.  I thought there was an agreement on that limited --  I have never understood nor has it been pointed out  to me the extent of the agreement that is for what  purpose the documents are admissible, but I have heard  counsel talk back and forth, "Oh, well, it is  archival, so it goes in".  I assume there was some  arrangement or at least agreement on principle, what  the law of admissibility is.  MACAULAY:  I am going to take the position that every  archival document used by any party establishes it, it  is prima facie evidence of the contents.  COURT:  I haven't been asked to rule on that point so far as  I can recall.  MACAULAY:  I don't want anyone to say later, "Oh, well, we  didn't understand".  COURT:  I don't think you have to worry about that.  I think  when time comes and counsel have to decide when that  moment arrives, we must have an argument on this  question and I'll have to make a ruling so counsel  MR. RUSH:  THE COURT  MR.  MR.  MR.  MR.  MR.  THE  MR.  THE  RUSH:  COURT 5385  J. Morrison (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Mackenzie  1 know where they stand, and it is a matter of  2 indifference to me when we have that argument.  3 Counsel know better than I do when that kind of  4 investigation may most conveniently be made and I will  5 be glad to hear what counsel have to say and try my  6 best to make a ruling that will assist all counsel.  7 MR. MACAULAY:  The sooner the better because it would be  8 unfortunate if one of the parties was under a  9 misapprehension as to the effect of that and later.  10 THE COURT:  Well, I will leave it to counsel when they want to  11 have the argument, but I am surprised what you say,  12 Mr. Mackenzie, because I have the clearest  13 recollection of either you or your learned counsel  14 associated with you discussing archival documents as  15 if there was some arrangement that they would go in.  16 If there is no such agreement, that's news to me.  It  17 doesn't matter all that much.  Mr. Rush has been  18 somewhat meticulous in not agreeing to some things,  19 but when it's been stated it is an archival document  20 he has stopped objecting and, for that reason, I, as I  21 say, I thought there was an agreement.  And if there  22 isn't an agreement, that doesn't matter either.  With  23 gracious respect, it seems to me there should be such  24 an agreement but the extent of the usefulness of  25 documents is a matter that I have never tried to come  26 to grips with because I assumed that sooner or later I  27 would have a discussion along the lines that as what  28 Mr. Macaulay has —  29 MR. MACKENZIE:  My lord, I think Mr. Rush will agree with my  30 comment that although there has been an attempt to  31 reach an agreement there has been no agreement  32 reached.  33 THE COURT:  My perception of what's happened is that counsel  34 have acted as if there was an agreement.  If there is  35 agreement then everyone which is at liberty to take a  36 position that's inconsistent with there being an  37 agreement if there is none.  38 MR. MACAULAY:  The only obstacle to quite a broad agreement is  39 that very question, the effect of putting an archival  4 0 document in.  41 THE COURT:  I have assumed for the purposes of moving the trial  42 along that counsel had decided to withhold argument  43 until we come to that question of the effect of the  44 documents and great many documents have gone in on  45 this trial on the basis they were archival documents.  46 MR. RUSH:  And I think I should point out, my lord, that at the  47 time they were submitted, and they weren't entered as 5386  1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  J. Morrison (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Mackenzie  exhibits on the record, that they were entered on the  basis that it wasn't necessary to prove certification  of archival documents and what was reserved was the  effect of those documents.  THE COURT:  I think my recollection, without going back and  researching the evidence, reference is that that  question is open.  All right.  I will look forward to  hearing from counsel as to when they want to have the  argument.  THE REGISTRAR:  405 and 406, exhibits or marked for I.D.?  THE COURT:  I think they are exhibits.  THE REGISTRAR:  Very good.  (EXHIBIT 405  (EXHIBIT 406  TAB 13 GREEN DOC. BOOK PRIVY COUNCIL  ORDER NOV. 29, 1957)  TAB 13 GREEN DOC. BOOK - B.C. ORDER  IN COUNCIL MAY 29, 1956)  MR.  THE COURT:  But there is a reservation as to what they proved.  I expressed the view they wouldn't support a  conviction on a summary conviction offence but they  are in for whatever need they are in there for.  MACKENZIE:  Q    Mr. Morrison, you testified that your father's --  Simon Morrison's chief name was Waiget, W-a-i-g-e-t?  Yes.  You said he was from the house of Wiigyet; is that  correct?  Yes.  Is he the -- sorry.  Wiigyet.  No, you say --  That's Waiget and Wiigyet. Both almost the same  spelling but must notice there is two of them.  Yes.  I am going to ask you about that.  So was your  father the head chief of the house of Waiget,  W-a-i-g-e-t?  Well, he was a chief of Waiget's house.  Were there any other chiefs in Waiget's house?  That's Wiigyet.  That's what I wanted to -- can you tell me if we  just speak about the house of Waiget, W-a-i-g-e-t.  Were there any other members in that house besides  your father?  Well, there is, as I stated in my statement  yesterday, was Wii seeks, Gitluudahl, and Wiigyet.  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  A  Q  A  Q  A 5387  J. Morrison (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Mackenzie  1 THE COURT:  What was the other one?  Wii seeks and who else?  2 THE WITNESS:  Wii seeks and Wiigyet.  3 MR. MACKENZIE:  4 Q    And you said Gitluudahl?  5 A    Gitluudahl.  6 THE SPELLER:  Number 11 on the plaintiff's list.  7 MR. MACKENZIE:  Number 11 is Gitluudahl.  8 THE COURT:  Thank you.  9 MR. MACKENZIE:  10 Q    Just to get -- if you don't mind, I will use the  11 English names.  Today Waiget, W-a-i-g-e-t, is Elsie  12 Morrison; correct?  13 A    Yes.  14 Q    And today Wii seeks is Ralph Michell; correct?  15 A    Yes.  16 Q    And today Wiigyet is Lloyd Morrison?  17 A    Yes.  18 Q    Today Gitluudahl is Pete Muldoe; correct?  19 A    Yes.  20 MR. MACKENZIE:  Now —  21 THE COURT:  I am sorry, the last one, Gitluudahl.  22 MR. MACKENZIE:  Yes, my lord, Pete Muldoe.  23 THE COURT:  And what's the difference — what's the spelling of  24 Wiigyet, W-e-e-g-e-t?  25 MR. MACKENZIE:  W-i-i-g-y-e-t, my lord.  Is it, Mr. Rush?  26 MR. RUSH:  That's right.  27 THE COURT:  They are all members of the house of Waiget?  28 THE WITNESS:  Yes.  29 MR. MACKENZIE:  30 Q    Now, there is a house of Gitluudahl, is there not?  31 That's Pete Muldoe's house?  32 A    Yes.  33 Q    And the members of Pete Muldoe's house are also  34 members of the house of Wiigyet, Lloyd Morrison;  35 correct?  36 A    They are all related as we stated, an all-in-one,  37 three of them working together.  38 Q    We say that they are houses but in fact all the  39 members are the same in those houses; aren't they?  40 A    Yes.  41 Q    Yes.  So really there is only one group, isn't  42 there?  43 A    Well, there was one group with them, only different  44 names on.  Wiigyet, that's what it states on there.  45 Q    Well, when did Waiget, W-a-i-g-e-t, join with the  46 other houses to become one group?  47 A    I don't know when that happened. 53?  J. Morrison (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Mackenzie  1 Q    Was that before your father's lifetime?  2 A    I said I don't know when that happened.  3 Q    Do you know when -- do you know if there was a  4 separate house of Waiget, W-a-i-g-e-t, at one time?  5 A    I don't know.  6 Q    You haven't heard about that in the feast?  7 A    Well, it's -- I stated on the -- when I working  8 together, that's all the things I know but also  9 different things which each in the feast today with  10 the people here, the different names people here so we  11 heard Wii seeks, he put up a feast, in the feast the  12 other one, but also related like me and the other  13 chiefs as wolves.  We working together.  14 Q    They are all in the Fireweed Clan, aren't they?  15 A    Yes.  They are all in Fireweed, so that's where they  16 are working together, in the same clan.  17 Q    Yes.  Have you heard in the feast whether they were  18 one time separate houses?  19 A    Maybe so, but I haven't heard that.  2 0 Q    Well, does that mean you spoke about the Chipmunk  21 Creek territory up north, Territory A, and you said  22 that -- in your affidavit you said it was owned by  23 Wiigyet, didn't you?  24 A    Yes.  25 Q    That's Lloyd Morrison; correct?  26 A    Lloyd, but also Waiget.  Name was Waiget onto that  27 territory.  Under Wiigyet, that's how we put it.  28 Q    Wiigyet was the caretaker?  29 A    No, it's the one that honour it.  These are the  30 chief, was the plaintiff.  31 Q    Who owned the territory?  32 A    Waiget.  33 Q    Lloyd Morrison or Elsie Morrison?  34 A    Waiget.  35 Q    And that's Elsie Morrison today?  36 A    Yes.  37 Q    Talking about Territory A, Chipmunk Creek?  38 A    Yes, I know Maxhla Saa Giiblax.  39 MR. MACKENZIE:  That's number —  40 THE SPELLER:  950.  41 MR. MACKENZIE:  950.  42 THE COURT:  Well, Wiigyet, W-i-i-g-y-e-t, doesn't appear on any  43 of these maps to be the owner of any of these  44 territories, does he?  45 MR. MACKENZIE:  No, he doesn't, my lord, but he appears in the  46 affidavit to be the owner and, to assist your lordship  47 on that point, perhaps I could refer to the affidavit 5389  J. Morrison (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Mackenzie  1 Exhibit 376 at paragraph 3.  Do you have that  2 reference, my lord?  3 THE COURT:  Yes.  All right.  Well then, that suggested a  4 discrepancy between that paragraph of the affidavit  5 and the map, Exhibit 378.  It may be a discrepancy,  6 that's more apparent.  7 MR. MACKENZIE:  Well, that's one of the points I was moving  8 towards, my lord, to try and clear that up.  9 THE COURT:  All right.  10 MR. MACKENZIE:  My lord, for your lordship's reference, look at  11 Territory E on page 9, paragraph 31, of the affidavit.  12 You will see, my lord, that that territory, and that's  13 Territory E, is claimed by Wiigyet, W-i-i-g-y-e-t.  14 THE COURT:  Of course this could be no more than a typographical  15 error by a secretary, could it?  16 MR. RUSH:  It isn't.  17 THE COURT:  It isn't?  18 MR. RUSH:  No, it isn't that.  19 THE COURT:  All right.  I will remove that uncertainty from my  2 0 mind.  Thank you.  21 MR. MACKENZIE:  22 Q    Waiting matters, my lord.  23 So we were talking about -- we were talking to --  24 I was trying to get clear and ask you to assist us on  25 the Territory A, Chipmunk Creek.  So the members --  26 you say in your affidavit that Wiigyet, W-i-i-g-y-e-t,  27 owns Territory A; is that correct?  28 A    Which one is that?  29 Q    That's Chipmunk Creek, I am sorry?  30 A    This is the wrong one.  31 Q    Chipmunk Creek.  You say Lloyd Morrison owns  32 Chipmunk Creek, don't you?  33 A    Yeah, Wiigyet.  34 Q    Yes.  Now, the members of Lloyd Morrison, Wiigyet's  35 house, are also the members of Pete Muldoe's house; he  36 is Gitluudahl?  37 A    Yes.  38 Q    So do the members of Gitluudahl all claim an  39 ownership in Territory A at Chipmunk Creek?  40 A    Yeah, they all member there.  41 Q    So Pete Muldoe has a claim to the area at Chipmunk  42 Creek as well as Lloyd Morrison and Elsie Morrison?  43 A    Elsie Morrison is under Wiigyet but she also a  44 member.  I don't know if you will understand it.  If I  45 can explain this to you, how this Indian laws are.  46 Maybe I can confuse you.  47 Q    Yes, I think that might happen.  That's my problem, 5390  J. Morrison (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Mackenzie  1 so I wonder -- sorry.  2 A    What you want to refer on this three people here and  3 you might not get into -- back into it but this is  4 where --  5 Q    Four people.  6 A    Where these people, it is really complicated unless  7 you really know how the system is, so if you want to  8 get into it, fine.  9 Q    Well, perhaps I could just ask you questions and you  10 could tell me the best you can so that I could get it  11 straight.  Wii seeks, Ralph Michell, claims -- has a  12 claim to ownership of Chipmunk Creek; is that correct?  13 A    That's under Wiigyet.  14 Q    But he has a claim to the ownership and  15 jurisdiction, doesn't he?  16 A    Yes.  17 Q    Or does he?  18 A    Yes.  19 Q    And so there are four chiefs?  20 A    Yes.  21 Q    Elsie Morrison, Lloyd Morrison, Pete Muldoe and Wii  22 seeks all have a claim to jurisdiction over Chipmunk  23 Creek; is that correct?  24 A    Yes, on the Fireweed.  25 Q    Fireweed Clan?  26 A    Yes.  27 Q    Now, that's the same for Ska'yans't, too, Territory  28 E?  29 A    Yes.  30 Q    So as far as you know, you have never heard of any  31 one of those houses owning the territory separately?  32 A    No.  33 Q    And so, in summary, we have four houses that claim  34 ownership to those two territories; is that true?  35 A    No, not -- I haven't heard about that.  You only --  36 Q    Sorry, before -- well, you can answer, please.  37 A    See, these things are -- I was telling maybe I  38 should go into it now if you want to.  39 Q    Well, perhaps I could ask you this:  I asked you  40 whether there were four houses claiming ownership to  41 those two territories, Territory A and Territory E,  42 and you said no?  43 A    Yeah.  44 Q    Let me ask you:  Does Lloyd Morrison's house,  45 Wiigyet, claim ownership and jurisdiction over those  46 two territories?  47 A    Yes. 5391  J. Morrison (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Mackenzie  1 Q    Does Pete Muldoe's house, Gitluudahl, claim  2 ownership and jurisdiction over those two territories?  3 A    Yes.  4 Q    Does Elsie Morrison's house, Waiget, claim ownership  5 and jurisdiction over those two territories?  6 A    Yes.  7 Q    Does Ralph Michell, Wii seeks, claim --  8 A    Yes.  9 Q    -- ownership and jurisdiction over those two  10 territories?  11 A    Yes.  12 THE COURT:  But does Gitluudahl have another territory of his  13 own?  14 THE WITNESS:  Yes.  This is what I wanted to explain to him.  15 THE COURT:  We will come to it, I am sure.  16 THE WITNESS:  It is difficult to know how these people are  17 splitting up, but they are working together and you  18 know how these transaction is.  I don't know if you  19 can understand it if I tell you.  20 MR. MACKENZIE:  21 Q    I think —  22 A    Once you want to go into it and we'll go into it.  23 Q    If I could just follow the Chief Justice's question.  24 Pete Muldoe in the house of Gitluudahl has other  25 territories, doesn't he?  26 A    Yes.  27 Q    And Lloyd Morrison, Wiigyet, has other territories,  28 doesn't he?  29 A    Yes.  30 Q    Wii seeks doesn't have any other territories, does  31 he?  32 A    I am not sure what the --  33 Q    And Waiget, W-a-i-g-e-t, she doesn't have any other  34 territories, does she?  35 A    No.  36 Q    Now, on your own genealogy of the house of Txaaxwok,  37 you mentioned the genealogy back to Jasper Derrick.  38 Do you recall that?  39 A    Yes, there was.  40 Q    That's the earliest you can remember; is that right?  41 A    Well, I was a little kid at that time and I just saw  42 him and I didn't get any information from him.  I know  43 he was around on Carlyle.  That's the time I know them  44 and he used to come into our place.  That's how I know  45 him.  46 Q    Carlyle is spelled C-a-r-1-y-l-e, correct?  47 A    Yes. 5392  J. Morrison (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Mackenzie  1 Q    And you were working at the Cannery then; is that  2 correct?  3 A    I wasn't working.  I was just with my dad at that  4 time.  5 Q    I am sorry, your father was fishing down there?  6 A    Yes.  7 Q    At the coast, yes.  Now, who was Txaaxwok before  8 Jasper Derrick, do you know?  9 A    I don't know.  My time is just like that.  As far as  10 I remember that, that's as far as I can tell you, and  11 that's as far as Jasper Derrick, yes.  12 Q    So I take it that you have not had a -- Heather  13 Harris hasn't prepared a genealogy for your house for  14 you, has she?  15 A    No.  16 Q    Now, going on to the next subject, I showed you a  17 picture at tab 19 of the -- what I am instructed was  18 the Waiget, W-a-i-g-e-t, pole at Kisgagas.  That was  19 in the small photograph book, the green photograph  20 binder.  I want to ask you about this.  Sir, you said  21 you don't remember seeing it; that's correct, isn't  22 it?  23 A    No.  24 Q    Yes.  I am instructed that this photograph was taken  25 some time before 1929.  Do you recall hearing that  26 there was a Waiget pole at Kisgagas?  27 A    Well, I heard about it.  28 Q    So was there a separate house at that time of  29 Waiget?  30 A    I don't know.  It is before my time.  31 Q    Did you ever hear in the feast about the separate  32 house?  33 A    No.  34 Q    Now, I want to ask you whether you heard in the  35 feast about anything else about this pole.  Did you,  36 and referring to tab 19, did you know that the -- that  37 figure at the top of that pole represents the Dog of  38 Mr. Ross?  39 A    No.  40 Q    Did you ever hear about that figure on the Waiget  41 pole?  42 A    No.  43 Q    Were you aware or did you hear at the feast that  44 Waiget originally came from the Nass River?  45 A    No.  46 Q    And did you ever discuss the history of the house of  47 Waiget or hear discussion of the history of Waiget at 5393  J. Morrison (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Mackenzie  1 any feasts?  2 A    No.  3 Q    Did your father never tell you about the history of  4 the house of Waiget?  5 A    They told me some of the story but I won't tell you  6 exactly because you have to start from the end and  7 start as full history.  8 Q    Did you hear the story about the Gitksan hunting  9 party that went to fight the Tsetsault people near  10 Bear Lake?  11 A    There is so many stories.  There was one you were  12 referring about Niikyap or Suu wi gus or --  13 MR. MACKENZIE:  We need a spelling for those, just hold on a  14 moment.  Niikyap is the plaintiff's list.  What's the  15 number on the plaintiff's list, please?  16 THE SPELLER:  581 on the plaintiff's list.  17 MR. MACKENZIE:  And the second word was Suu wi gus.  We heard  18 that story from, I think, Mrs. McKenzie or Mrs.  19 Johnson.  2 0 THE COURT:  Mrs. McKenzie.  21 MR. MACKENZIE:  22 Q    Yes.  My lord, perhaps Mrs. Howard can give that  23 name to the reporter after the break, after the  24 adjournment.  I am asking you about the history of the  25 house of Waiget, your father's house, and there used  26 to be wars between the Gitksan and the people who  27 lived around Tuudaa dii Lake and Bear Lake; correct?  28 A    Yes.  This is what I am describing to the blanket.  29 I only know about that at that little things that they  30 found.  That's the only thing that I described on my  31 affidavit.  32 Q    That's David Gunanoot's blankets?  33 A    No, Waiget.  34 Q    You were referring to the Waiget blanket?  35 A    Yes.  36 MR. MACKENZIE:  At tab 6 of the plaintiff's documents.  37 MR. RUSH:  Exhibit 382.  38 MR. MACKENZIE:  39 Q    Yes.  You heard no other stories about the history  40 of Waiget besides that one about the blankets?  41 A    That's all I remember is that time when they told me  42 about that place.  That's only thing I referred on the  43 witness --  44 Q    Well, let me ask you.  I understand you say you  45 don't recall any other stories of Waiget but can I  46 just see if I can refresh your memory.  Do you  47 remember a story of the people from Kisgagas going to 5394  J. Morrison (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Mackenzie  1  2  3  A  4  Q  5  6  7  A  8  Q  9  10  11  12  13  A  14  Q  15  16  17  18  A  19  Q  20  21  A  22  Q  23  A  24  MR. RUSH:  25  26  27  28  THE COURT  29  MR. macke:  30  Q  31  32  A  33  Q  34  A  35  Q  36  37  A  38  Q  39  A  40  Q  41  A  42  43  44  Q  45  A  46  Q  47  A  the Bear Lake country and visiting the whiteman's fort  there?  No.  You remember the story that the people from the  Kisgagas at that time were impressed with the dogs  they saw at the fort at Fort Connelly?  No.  No, you don't recall that?  And that did you hear  that they brought their stories back to Kisgagas and  they held feasts to establish a new crest called the  Dog of Mr. Ross and that became the pole of Waiget?  Do you remember anything about that?  No.  Now, I want to ask you a couple of questions about  the totem-poles.  You spoke about the fact you were  going to have a pole raised for your house at  Kitwancool; correct?  Yes.  And I take it that there hasn't been a pole for your  house before this; is that correct?  Yeah.  We are talking about the house of Tsim daak?  Yes.  I am not sure if the witness -- the question was  framed in the negative.  I wasn't quite sure if the  witness was replying in the negative or replying in  the positive.  I think --  That's   a  possibility.  JZIE:  Yes.  Has the house of the Tsim daak had a pole  raised before now?  Well, there must be before my time.  You have never seen the pole?  Yeah, I seen my own pole.  Yes.  You saw the pole that you're going to raise;  correct?  Yes.  You haven't seen one before that; have you?  Well, there is one laying there.  There is an old pole lying there?  Lying on the copy of this because you have to use  the same crest.  You can't put any other crest on it.  You have to follow up what --  So there is an old pole lying at Kitwancool?  There was.  There was, and you saw it?  There was an old one, and that's why they copy and 5395  J. Morrison (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Mackenzie  1 new one.  2 Q    Did you see it?  3 A    Yeah.  4 Q    And you had it copied?  5 A    Well, this is what the new pole is copied of.  6 Q    Now, how old would you say the totem-poles are?  7 A    Which one?  8 Q    At Kitwancool?  9 A    Which one, new one or --  10 Q    What's the oldest totem-pole at Kitwancool?  11 A    I am not -- know how many years where -- it is --  12 you have to go back where it started from so I can't  13 tell you because it's way beyond my time.  14 Q    Well, I am just asking you about what you heard at  15 the feast.  You said the totem-poles represent the  16 territories?  17 A    Yes.  18 Q    And you said the territories have been around for  19 thousands of years?  20 A    Yes.  21 Q    How long did they say in the feast the poles had  22 been there?  23 A    I am only going back with the memories of '36.  This  24 is only so far as I can remember at that time what  25 they were saying in the feast.  26 Q    Yes.  27 A   And I can't go back any further than that.  28 Q    What did they say in the feast about how old the  29 totem-poles were?  30 A    Didn't say how old they were.  31 MR. MACKENZIE:  Thank you.  That's about all I can say on that.  32 Finished with that volume 1, my lord.  33 THE COURT:  Thank you.  34 MR. MACKENZIE:  My lord, this is a new subject, if it is  35 convenient for your lordship.  36 THE COURT:  Yes.  We will adjourn then until 10:00 tomorrow  37 morning.  Thank you.  38 THE REGISTRAR:  Order in court.  Court stands adjourned until  39 ten a.m.  40  41 (PROCEEDINGS ADJOURNED AT 3:58 p.m. TO APRIL 22, 1988)  42  43  44 I hereby certify the foregoing to be  45 a true and accurate transcript of the  46 proceedings herein, transcribed to the  47 best of my skill and ability. 5396  J. Morrison (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Mackenzie  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  6 TANNIS DEFOE, Official Reporter  7 United Reporting Service Ltd.

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