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Delgamuukw Trial Transcripts

[Proceedings of the Supreme Court of British Columbia 1988-03-18] British Columbia. Supreme Court Mar 18, 1988

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 1  2  3  4  THE  REGISTR  5  6  7  8  9  THE  COURT:  10  MR.  GRANT:  11  12  13  THE  COURT:  14  MR.  GRANT:  15  16  17  18  THE  COURT:  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  MR.  GRANT:  31  32  THE  COURT:  33  EXAMINATION  34  Q  35  36  37  38  39  40  A  41  Q  42  A  43  Q  44  45  A  46  Q  47  A  4759  Vancouver, B.C.  March 18, 1988  \R:  In the Supreme Court of British Columbia,  Friday, March 18, 1988, on Delgamuukw verses Her  Majest the Queen at bar, My Lord.  I caution the  witness and the interpreter you are both still under  oath.  Mr. Grant.  Thank you, My Lord.  I just wish to advise the court  I anticipated that we would be going a full day  today.  Yes.  Sometimes it is raised on Fridays as to what we  would do.  But I equally anticipated that we will  probably be requesting to stop early next week which  will be the last day of this sitting.  I think that will receive some reasonably unanimous  consideration.  While we are on this distasteful  subject of time, I think that we will not be able to  start on Monday until about 10:15.  I am going to  have to speak to the Crown again on their noble  strife.  We have 27 cases Monday and four judges.  Four of them are jury trials and a couple of 20-day  trials and that sort of thing.  I am afraid we have  made our carpets red for the reason of hiding the  blood that will be on the carpet by the time we  finish on Monday morning, so I think if we plan to  start this at 10:15 it will be safer for that.  I appreciate you allowing us not to be here as the  blood is flowing.  I wish I could say the same.  IN CHIEF CONTINUED BY MR. GRANT:  I just wanted to refer you briefly to Exhibit 31.  And I am going to refer you to the fishing site on  Exhibit 31 that is labeled 'Min golhl hon and then  you've marked an A.  Now, I just want to understand  your evidence on this point, there is a village in  that area, this is around the Woodcock airfield?  Yes.  And what is the name of the village?  An gol hon.  And there is a fishing site of your house just  downstream from the village?  Yes.  And what is the name of the fishing site?  'Min golhl hon. 4760  1  MR.  GRANT  2  3  4  5  6  7  THE  COURT  8  MR.  GRANT  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  THE  COURT  33  34  MR.  GRANT  35  THE  COURT  36  MR.  GRANT  37  38  39  40  41  THE  COURT  42  MR.  GRANT  43  44  45  46  47  THE  COURT  Now, My Lord, before proceeding further, my friend  wished me to refer you -- I referred you yesterday  to page 1227 and I indicated to the court that I had  said to correct the name to An rather than 'Min on  your copy of the exhibit. It isn't changed on the  exhibit itself.  Yes.  My friend pointed out to me that on line 23 of the  same page there was a question -- after referring to  the previous site on line 23 at 1227:  "Q   Right.  Continuing down the river, are  there other -- what is the next  fishing site?  A  An loohl hon.  Q   Which side of the river is that on?  A   On the railway side."  Then after that I make the correction, there is a  question intervening.  Now then I say at line 45:  "Q   Was there a village anywhere in this  area, a Gitksan village?  A   There is, there is before.  Q   What was the name of the village?  A  An loohl hon."  Which is the same name as was given for the name of  the site.  And I think that clarifies the record of  what my friend was concerned about and what I had  raised.  Well, Exhibit 31 shows An and I think it is Gal, is  it not?  Yes.  Is that wrong?  No, the exhibit itself shows two A's now.  One was  in red put on by the witness by Mr. Mathews and the  other one is printed on there earlier.  But the A  put on by Mr. Mathews he has indicated is the  location of the village site.  Yes, that's right.  Then there is a marked fishing site just downstream  at the bottom end of the airfield, the downstream  end of the airfield, and that is 'Min golhl hon.  And this witness has described that fishing site and  why it is called 'Min golhl hon.  Okay.  Thank you. 4761  1  MR.  GRANT  2  3  4  5  Q  6  7  8  9  10  11  A  12  THE  COURT  13  14  A  15  MR.  GRANT  16  THE  COURT  17  A  18  THE  COURT  19  MR.  GRANT  20  21  THE  COURT  22  A  23  24  THE  COURT  25  26  A  27  THE  COURT  28  29  A  30  31  MR.  GRANT  32  Q  33  34  35  36  37  A  38  39  Q  40  A  41  42  Q  43  A  44  45  46  47  Q  And Mr. Plant referred me to that other part of the  transcript of Mrs. Ryan's transcript when I made  that change and it is appropriate that it should be  before you.  I would like to refer you to your exhibit book, tab  3.  Now, with reference to Exhibit 348 which is at  tab 3, the seating chart of your house and the Lax  Shiih at a feast held by the Lax See'l or Ganeda,  can you tell the court who are the head chiefs in  your house today?  They are myself, Tenimgyet and --  I'm sorry, these are the head chiefs of your house  at Kitwanga?  Yes.  In our house, yes.  The head chiefs of his house.  At Kitwanga?  Yes, at the Village of Kitwanga.  Does it make any difference?  Well, it may, My Lord, but I am not sure, but his  house is a house at Kitwanga.  Only at Kitwanga?  And our territories in the Wilson Creek area and  Tsihl Gwelli area.  Are there no members of your house other than at  Kitwanga?  In what way are you talking about?  Well, are they members of your house at, say,  Kispiox or new Hazelton or Kitsegukla?  Yes, our members are living all over intermarriages  and whatnot there.  Oh, I see.  I think with that question I understand  the point that you are raising.  Can you tell the  court who are the head chiefs of the house of  Tenimgyet, all of the house members who are head  chiefs of Tenimgyet?  Yes, I was just going to start that.  Myself,  Tenimgyet, Ax tii hiikw, Bii lax ha, Wii hloots'.  And those are the four chiefs closest to the center?  Yes.  There are others, but these are considered the  four head runners of the house.  Now, what about Ax dii Mihl, Charles Mathews?  That's where we begin to taper off.  You might say  that he is a simoogit, but it starts to taper off.  The rank or the power starts to taper off.  This is  an example how a table would be seated.  Would he be considered a wing or a sub-chief in the 4762  1  2  A  3  Q  4  5  6  7  8  A  9  10  Q  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  A  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  Q  29  30  A  31  Q  32  A  33 THE  COURT  34  35  3 6 MR.  GRANT  37 THE  COURT  3 8 MR.  GRANT  39  Q  40  41  A  42  Q  43  44  A  45  Q  46  A  47  Q  house?  Yes.  Now, I am just going up that chart to these next  four persons whose English names are Kathleen  Mathews, your mother, Mary Shanoss, Vina Turner and  Gertie Brown.  What do you refer to them as in your  house?  We call them sigidimhaanak or the lady chiefs of the  house.  Now, yesterday you referred to your -- just one  moment before I go to this.  I asked you regarding  these adaawk, Biis Hoon and these different adaawk  you've described, I have asked you how old they are.  Can you tell the court with reference to something  describing the adaawk or something like the songs or  crests that came out of the adaawk, how old these  are in relation to the arrival of the white man?  And I am referring to the Biis Hoon and the  migration and the starvation adaawk?  These are very, very ancient old adaawks.  And how  you would recognize that they are old ancient  adaawks of history would be what they call in our  songs our Limx oo'y itself describes how ancient and  when you say Limx oo'y, if you break that down into  words, it says Limx hla oo'y.  When you say that,  Limx hla oo'y, that's ancient, that's centuries  past.  Literally that's how you would translate that last  part of it?  Yes.  Would you say the same for the adaawk of the hawaaw?  Yes.  I'm sorry, all four adaawks which you talk about are  the one about the maiden and the starvation and the  migration and the lion?  Yes.  Thank you.  And what you have described as ancient would apply  to all four of those adaawk?  Yes.  You have given actually a number of migrations, one  was Tenimgyet coming over?  Yes.  That would be ancient?  Yes.  As well as the later one of by Bii lax ha? Now,  1  A  2  3  4  5  6  Q  7  8  9  A  10  11  12  13 THE  COURT  14 MR.  GRANT  15  Q  16  17  18  A  19  Q  20  A  21  22  23  24  25  26  Q  27  A  28  Q  29  30  31  32  A  33  Q  34  A  35  Q  36  A  37  38  39  40  41  Q  42  43  A  44  Q  45  46  A  47  Q  4763  And when you say "later", it goes back probably a  century to the migration of Bii lax ha.  That is an  ancient story too, an ancient migration that took  place because the separation song it has to go with  it too.  Just to be clear, Mr. Mathews, you said it goes back  a century, do you mean just a hundred years ago from  today or do you mean it goes back more than that?  Yeah, more than that because the song indicates it  too that it is an ancient adaawk.  It doesn't mean  that it happened yesterday or a couple of days ago,  it goes back.  It goes way back.  Which one is it that we are talking about now?  He was talking about -- I referred to the Bii lax ha  one that happened -- the Bii lax ha happened later  than the Tenimgyet adaawk?  Yes.  But you say it still goes back?  Yes.  And the only recent one might be considered a  very recent one was the killing of one of our  members by the Nishga' which I indicated Reverend  Tompson tried to consume the body and it was too  badly decomposed.  And that would be considered most  recent, I guess.  And that was the killing that occurred at Sand Lake?  Yes.  I am going to refer you for a moment to Exhibit 359  which is the photograph of the totem poles.  you've referred to the last pole as the pole of the  hawaaw; is that right?  Yes.  And what is the figure on the top of that pole?  Hawaaw.  And underneath?  There is -- this pretty poor picture, but right  underneath it actually goes through the hawaaw is  the wolf.  And then chief Tsiipxwa smex that was  very poorly -- you can't see too well on this  picture.  And you are looking at the third pole from the right  on Exhibit 359?  Yes.  Now, this -- that last figure you have described,  that's translated as the ensnared bear?  Yes.  Now, does the ensnared bear come from the adaawk of 4764  THE  9  10  11 MR.  12 THE  13 MR.  14 THE  15 MR.  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41 THE  42  43  44 THE  45  4 6 MR.  47  A  Q  A  COURT  A  GRANT  COURT  GRANT  COURT  GRANT  Q  A  COURT:  A  COURT:  A  GRANT:  Q  Biis hoon?  No.  Why does your house use the crest of the ensnared  bear?  My grandfather told me that how we obtain this crest  was that it happened when there was -- you might  call a mild famine took place and some of the Lax  Gibuu from Kisgagas came --  From Gitanmaaxs?  Kisgagas.  Do you have a spelling for that?  Well, it is on the map here.  Oh, yes, it is.  If I can find it again.  You can see it just above Gitanmaaxs, about the  center, K-I-S-G-A-G-A-S.  And they were trading for some grease grandpa told  me, when I say "grandpa", I am talking about  Geoffrey Morgan.  And they were trading for grease  and they traded and they took this grease and packed  it away, when I say "away", they left.  And a short  time later they came back again and they said they  had changed their mind, they didn't want to trade  anymore.  And they wanted the payment back which  they did, they gave back the payment.  But later  after these men left, these ladies found out that  they were being cheated.  And when I say "cheated",  the men that actually what they did was poured off  some stuff, the grease, and filled it up with rock  so it looked like it was full again.  And this is  how the ladies found out that they were being  cheated.  And these men came back again and said  that they would trade again and these ladies started  laughing and taunting them, so that's how these men  ended up killing these two women.  And as a result  of that the -- I don't know the name of the chief  from Kisgagas came and gave the crest of the  ensnared bear and that's why we have it in our  house.  I'm sorry, he did what to the crest of the ensnared  bear?  Yes.  I'm sorry,  the chief did what?  No, the chief from this Kisgagas gave us this crest.  And that was a cease or settlement -- 1  A  2  Q  3  A  4  Q  5  6  A  7  Q  8  9  10  A  11  12  13  14  Q  15  A  16  Q  17  18  19  20  21  A  22  Q  23  24  A  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  Q  34  A  35  36  37  Q  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  4765  Yes.  -- of the killing?  Yes.  And the two women that were killed were from your  house?  Yes, from the Ax tii hiikw as it was told to me.  Now, was this history or adaawk ancient in the sense  that it was, as you say, the term from the Limx  00 ' y?  It does not have a song accompaniment so it might  have been recent, "recent" I mean within 1700, 1800.  1 don't know because if it was ancient they would  have accompinment of a song.  200 or 300 years ago?  Yes.  Now, you did say yesterday quite strongly when I  asked if that bear came from the Biis hoont adaawk  that you did not have a crest of the bear from the  Biis hoont adaawk, that is the bear.  You had the  cubs were part of your crest?  Yes.  But not the large grizzly.  Can you tell the court  why that is?  The reason why we don't claim the actual large  grizzly or display it on our poles is that this  grizzly was outside of our territory, so we do not  claim or display.  We just use the hide or the  bearskin to show, as I have told the story of Biis  hoon that he would use it as he was going down and  then he would turn into this half bear, half human.  So that is why we only show just the hide of the  skin of the bear as our Nax Nok.  Do you know who uses the whole bear?  I would say that the people that are Tsimxsan,  brothers from Kitsum Kalum use it because it was on  their territory where this happened, yes.  On Monday when you were giving evidence about this  adaawk, I just want to refer you -- I will refer to  volume 73, page 4577.  I just want to clarify one of  your answers.  Okay, line 13, just to put it in  context, My Lord.  "Q   I just wanted to ask you a few  questions.  One is you mentioned there  was a feast described in the adaawk,  and you just made mention of that.  When the adaawk is told to you in 4766  1 detail, are -- is the detail of the  2 feasts and what you're to do at feasts  3 described?  4 A  What I've just described here would  5 have been told at a chief -- at a  6 feast hall.  7 Q   Yes.  8 A   Some of the most detail I've just  9 pulled out.  Like, this is the sisatxw  10 part.  That's a sacred part to us."  11  12 Now, what I wanted to ask you is what do you mean  13 when you say the sisatxw part of the adaawk which  14 you have made some reference to is a sacred part to  15 you?  16 A    It is our -- when we refer to sisatxw is the  17 spiritual belief and it is the purification of the  18 very physical and spiritual, the very soul of you.  19 So we have this sisatxw in our house.  And all other  20 houses have sisatxw and it's performed or done  21 differently from other houses.  This particular one  22 that I was speaking of was from our house.  23 Q    Do all Gitksan houses, to your knowledge, have a  24 sisatxw?  25 A    Yes, they all do.  26 Q    And when you say this particular one is to your  27 house, are the sisatxw for each house different?  28 A    Yes.  29 Q    Now, my earlier question that I referred to was that  30 during the course of that adaawk you said there was  31 a feast of the bears with Biis hoon?  32 A    Yes.  33 Q    When the adaawk is described to you in detail, are  34 all the details of that feast and feasting rules  35 described?  36 A    Yes, that's where we get most of our rules and laws  37 that is made in seeing how these bears would perform  38 and that's how we carry on with our feasts.  39 Q    Now, on page -- I want to ask you about another  40 matter just to clear up another answer you gave.  41 You described by reference to photo 29 in the  42 document book Exhibit 351, you don't have to refer  43 to it now, but you described where the adaawk took  44 place and Mr. Plant objected at this point.  45  46 "MR. PLANT:  My lord, when I took the  47 answer to a question one or two 4767  1 questions ago, I made a note to  2 the effect "various people told  3 me", and if the -- or "people I've  4 talked to", words to that effect.  5 If this evidence comes from that,  6 I would like to have the source of  7 the information stated.  It's not  8 an objection to the question  9 though, my lord.  10 MR. GRANT:  11 Q  Yes.  I will be coming to that,  12 my lord.  I'll deal with it now.  13 Who were the people that told you  14 where this was?  15 A My dad, standing right there on  16 the photo.  17 Q  Yes.  What about your  18 grandfathers?  19 A My grandfathers:  Geoffrey,  20 Wallace and Jack."  21  22 My question to you is this, aside from your  23 grandfathers and your fathers showing that place to  24 you, does the adaawk describe where the Biis hoon  25 event took place?  26 A    Yes, when I started off I thought I had made it  27 clear that it was from the Village of Git lax an  28 dek'.  29 Q    And the adaawk describes where that village was  30 located?  31 A    Yes.  32 Q    When referring to Exhibit 31 in your fishing sites,  33 you talked about the fishing sites belonging to your  34 house on both sides of the river, this is at the Xsi  35 gwin ixst'aat area or territory?  36 A    Yes.  37 Q    And on volume 74, page 4646 I asked you a question  38 and I want to ask you a question out of it.  39  40 "Q   Now when you look at Exhibit 31 and  41 what you have just described, Mr.  42 Mathews, it indicates that you have  43 fishing sites along the river where  44 your territory is located and on the  45 other shore of the river?  46 A   Yes.  Our —  47 Q   Go ahead. 1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  A  23  Q  24  A  25  Q  26  27  28  A  29  30  31  32  Q  33  34  A  35  36  Q  37  A  38  Q  39  A  40  Q  41  A  42  Q  43  44  45  A  46  47  4768  A   Our rights only include those fishing  sites, but does not go over the bank.  It belongs to somebody else.  Just our  sites I mentioned belongs to us.  Q   Well, what shore are you talking about  when you say that?  A   Both banks, both shores.  Q   Okay.  A  Within the ones I have just described.  Q   But those sites, for example, where  your smokehouse is located?  A   Yes.  That's on our territory.  Q   Okay.  So that is actually your  territory?  A   Yes."  Now, my question to you is in that area, under  Gitksan law, you've described fishing sites that you  have on the left bank and on the right bank.  And  looking downstream on the right bank is your  territory, you've described that; is that right?  Looking downstream?  Yes.  Yes.  Okay.  Who under Gitksan law owns the middle of the  river between the fishing sites on the right bank  and the left bank?  We say that we own the whole -- where it goes across  it covers the middle, there is no opening there, it  goes across just to the bank of the other side and  back on the other side.  When you say "it goes across", what are you  referring to?  To the other shore, to the opposite bank of the  river.  Well, is that -- you mean your boundary?  Yes.  Is that understood by the other Gitksan chiefs --  Yes.  -- that that's your territory?  Yes.  Do you know does that apply to other Gitksan  territories in the western part of the Gitksan  territory?  Yes, they apply -- only it doesn't apply when I was  showing you the photos of Tsihl Gwellii when I claim  one side and Gisax iit on the other side then you 4769  1  2  Q  3  A  4  THE  COURT  5  6  A  7  8  9  10  MR.  GRANT  11  Q  12  13  14  A  15  16  17  Q  18  A  19  THE  COURT  20  21  A  22  THE  COURT  23  24  25  A  26  THE  COURT  27  28  29  A  30  THE  COURT  31  MR.  GRANT  32  Q  33  34  35  36  A  37  Q  38  A  39  Q  40  A  41  Q  42  43  A  44  Q  45  A  46  Q  47  don't claim the whole river.  Do you claim any part of the river?  Yes, you might then split the river in half.  Well, then you are saying this applies to the  Skeena, but not to other rivers?  Yeah, where any kind of river, your lordship, if you  have fishing sites on both sides, naturally you own  right across.  But when you just claim one side then  just that bank side.  Well, in that case where you only claim one side and  another house claims the other side, is there any --  what Gitksan chief or chiefs claim the middle?  Well, I would claim the middle of it on my bank and  this guy would claim the bank on half of the river  on that side.  So the river would be divided?  Yes.  So there is a difference between river as a boundary  and a river as a fishing site?  Yes.  All right.  Thank you.  In other words, if a river  is a boundary between two houses then the real  boundary is in the middle of the river?  If they were opposite banks from each other, yes.  But if you have a fishing site on one side of a  river then you have the river right to the other  bank?  Yes.  That's what I understand you to be saying.  Yes, okay.  Let's take the Xsi gwin ixstaat  territory.  Do you know which chief owns the  territory across the river of the Xsi gwin ixstaat,  that is on the highway side of the river, that land?  That is above?  Yes, above your fishing sites?  I think that is some of Hax bagwootxu.  That is Hax bagwootxw, Gwis gyen's group?  Yes.  Okay.  Now, does Hax bagwootxw own any of the river  in that area?  From the bank up, yes.  Only from the bank up?  Yes, away from the river.  Away from the river.  Hax bagwootxw is 34.  Can I  have Exhibit 31.  Okay.  I am referring you to 4770  1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  A  12  Q  13  A  14  THE  COURT  15  MR.  GRANT  16  17  18  19  20  THE  COURT  21  MR.  GRANT  22  THE  COURT  23  24  MR.  GRANT  25  THE  COURT  26  MR.  GRANT  27  28  29  THE  COURT  30  MR.  GRANT  31  32  THE  COURT  33  34  35  MR.  GRANT  36  37  THE  COURT  38  MR.  GRANT  39  Q  40  A  41  Q  42  43  A  44  Q  45  46  A  47  Q  Exhibit 31, and I'll take an example and if it is  not a good example for up you can refer to another.  You see on that Exhibit 31 there is a large number  of fishing sites, many of which have been identified  by a previous witness Mrs. Ryan.  And I will just  take you downstream, for example.  I wanted to  clarify this point raised by his lordship.  You see  there, there is a site referred to at Xsi gwin  biyoosxw as Ganeda, Lelt, he has a fishing site  there?  Yes.  You know about that fishing site?  Yes.  I haven't found that, Mr. Grant, where is that?  Okay, Insect Creek if you go down river.  If you go  down below the last fishing site on the right bank,  the next triangle.  It is just on that same side.  You see Insect Creek in brackets underneath the  name?  I'm sorry, the name of the creek?  Insect Creek and it also says Xsi gwin biyoosxw.  How far down?  Are we talking opposite the territory  of the witness?  No, we are way below that.  Way below that.  If yours is folded as this one, it would be just  above the mid point along the fold line, the  vertical fold line of that middle square.  Insect Creek?  Yes.  And right at the mouth of it you see a  triangle.  Yes, I think that's what it says.  It is so vague  and obscured I really can't read it, but I think  that's what it says.  And then you see a triangle and a line there and you  see Xsi gwin biyoosxw and then you see Ganeda?  Yes.  Do you know of this fishing site?  Yes.  And whose territory is this fishing site which is on  the right bank looking downstream?  Yes.  Whose territory, land territory is on that side of  the river where that fishing site is?  This particular one I think it was --  Well, just think of it as the mouth of Insect Creek. 1  2  A  3  Q  4  A  5  Q  6  A  7  Q  8  A  9  Q  10  A  11  Q  12  A  13  Q  14  15  16  17  A  18  19  20  21  22  Q  23  24  A  25  Q  26  A  27  Q  28  A  29  Q  30  A  31  32  33  34  35  36  Q  37  38  A  39  Q  40  41  A  42  Q  43  44  A  45  Q  46  47  A  4771  Whose territory surrounds the mouth of Insect Creek?  I think it was the Wii hlengwax.  And Wii hlengwax is on the other side as well?  Yes.  Now, Lelt, that's Fred Johnson?  Yes.  And he is a plaintiff in this action?  Yes.  And Wii hlengwax is Herbert Burke?  Yes.  And he is a plaintiff in this action?  Yes.  Just to use this as an example, can you explain to  the court where you have Lelt with a fishing site  and Wii hlengwax holds territory on both sides of  the river, who would hold the river at that point?  Well, at that particular thing these guys are from  the same tribe.  You might say they are the same  house, they're related.  They are in the same  grouping from Gitwingax, so you naturally might see  the name Lelt as part of Wii hlengwax.  Okay.  Lelt and Wii hlengwax are both Ganeda or  frog?  Yes.  Is that what you are referring to?  Yes.  And they are both frog chiefs from Gitwingax?  Yes.  They both form part of your 'Nii Dii?  Yes.  Likewise if it was inside our territory, if  you see Ax tii hiikw it will be the same thing what  I am trying to get across.  If you have Ax tii Hiikw  name mentioned here, there is no problem because me  and him are side by side and we are chiefs in the  house, in our house.  Okay.  But which house would own the river there,  the house of Lelt or the house of Wii hlengwax.  The house of Wii hlengwax.  And would the house of Wii hlengwax own the river on  both sides?  Yes.  And that would be recognized by the other Gitksan  chiefs?  Yes.  You've referred to yourself as 'Nii Dii for Wii  hlengwax and Lelt; is that right?  Yes. 4772  1  Q  2  3  4  A  5  Q  6  A  7  Q  8  A  9  Q  10  A  11  12  13  14  Q  15  16  A  17  Q  18  A  19  Q  20  A  21  Q  22  A  23  Q  24  25  A  2 6 MR. C  J RAN'  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  Q  35  36  37  38  A  39  Q  40  A  41 MR. G  J RAN'  42 THE C  :ouRr  4 3 MR. IV  IACA1  44  45  46  47  I am just showing you a document dated June 26,  1985.  Is that your signature as a witness to  Haalus, Buddy William's signature?  Yes.  And Haalus, is that a head chief of a house?  Yes.  And do you recognize that document?  Yes.  Can you explain why you signed that document?  It is a sort of an agreement of what Haalus and his  group are saying here is true.  So I, as a 'Nii Dii,  said, yes, that it is true what they are saying  here.  And Vernon Smith, is that the person whose name is  above yours?  Yes.  And he is Sakxum higookw?  Yes.  A plaintiff in this action?  Yes.  Chief of the Eagle Clan?  Yes.  And is he part of the Genada or frogs 'Nii Dii as  well?  Yes.  I would ask that that be marked as the next exhibit,  My Lord, and I just can comment it is -- the letter  on the bottom is 10729, it is a federal document  that was disclosed to us.  And I am not certain  about all of the other markings on it except that  you can see there is a receipt stamp.  I don't think  that the others were necessarily on it.  Well, let  me ask the witness.  You see that handwritten marking along the top E  5828-R8 and there is SA 105-20, SH 62 and then a  number of c.c.'s.  Was that on that petition when  you signed it?  No.  And the receipt stamp wasn't on it?  No, it wasn't.  I would ask that that be marked as the next exhibit.  Mr. Macaulay, do you have any submission?  Y:  No, My Lord, we acknowledge that we received this  document.  I am not making any objection to it being  admitted.  This witness says he sent this document  to us and we say we received it.  Now, what weight  that is up to your lordship. 4773  1  THE  COURT  2  MR.  PLANT  3  4  5  6  7  THE  COURT  8  MR.  GRANT  9  10  11  12  THE  COURT  13  14  15  16  17  MR.  GRANT  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  THE  COURT  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  MR.  GRANT  34  35  THE  COURT  36  MR.  GRANT  37  38  39  40  41  42  THE  COURT  43  44  45  46  47  Mr. Plant.  The date in the upper right-hand corner which  appears to be in the same type script as the text of  the statement is June 26, 1985.  Your lordship has  already heard my submission on evidence of this  nature postdating the commencement of the action.  Yes.  And in my submission, this document stands on the  same footing as the other evidence that was  tendered.  I am not disputing its authenticity, I am  disputing its relevance.  Well, it seems to me, Mr. Grant, that it could be  admitted against anyone who admits he received it  only as proof of the fact that it was received, but  not as part of your case as proof of the truth of  anything stated in it.  Well, of course I think it is a question -- I think  that the issue here, and I think my friend has  misconstrued it in the course of his objection.  It  is not an issue of relevance, of course, I think it  is an issue of weight.  And I think that, of course,  that goes at the end of the day.  And I think that  the point you made, of course, goes to the issue of  weight.  No, with respect, it goes to far more than weight.  It can only go to weight as to what it proves.  There is always a question of weight, but it is  really your client writing your friend a document;  your friend having received it has to disclose it  and you putting it in as proof of the truth of the  facts stated, that is completely self-serving and  inadmissable.  Maybe I can clarify, I didn't wish to introduce  it —  Yes.  It is just that this witness has referred to it and  there is one point this witness has referred to it  as he signed as a witness as part of the 'Nii Dii.  It demonstrates in a different way this 'Nii Dii  relationship the witness described yesterday and  that's why I submit that it is going to be admitted.  Well, I am going to admit it as a document signed by  the witness in the capacity of the witness as it  shows as proof only of the fact that it was so  signed by the witness and received by the Federal  Crown, but not as proof even as to weight of any of  the facts stated in it. 4774  1 MR.  2  3  4  5  6 THE  7 MR.  8  9  10  11 THE  12 MR.  13  14 THE  15  16 MR.  17  18 THE  19  2 0 MR.  21 MR.  22  23  24  25 THE  26  27  28  29  30  31 MR.  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  MACAULAY:  When I mentioned the question of weight, it isn't  just what it proves.  This is something like the  delivery of a Statement of Claim setting out various  allegations.  It may be relevant to my friend's case  that that act was done.  COURT:  Yes.  MACAULAY:  That proves the act.  It proves that somebody  delivered this document to us and that we have the  evidence now of this witness and certainly Mr.  Williams as Haalus signed it.  COURT:  Yes.  GRANT:  Yes, it is proof of the act of delivery and I agree  with my friend that that's --  COURT:  And it is proof of the fact that the witness signed  it as a witness.  GRANT:  And he has explained the context which he has signed  it, I believe.  COURT:  All right.  On that basis, it will be the next  exhibit.  REGISTRAR:  It will be 363.  MACAULAY:  That might be relevant in some circumstances if  there were -- it would be relevant, for instance, as  a part of a series of communication, like  communication.  COURT:  Yes, it might be.  All right.  Thank you, that will  be Exhibit 363.  (EXHIBIT 363:  Document dated June 26, 1985,  entered as witnessed and signed by A. Mathews)  GRANT:  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  Thank you, My Lord.  I am going to ask you some questions and I am going  to make reference to Exhibit 363, but I am not going  to have it in front of you.  I am saying that only  so that the court and my friends may wish to refer  to it.  Do you know the area of the Seven Sisters?  Yes.  And that is an area of a series of mountains above  Cedarvale?  Yes.  On the left bank facing downstream of the Skeena?  Yes.  The left side I should say, not on the bank.  Does  Wii hlengwax own, under Gitksan law, any part of the  Seven Sisters area?  Yes, they do, yes.  You've described over the last few days several 4775  1 details about how your house today uses your two  2 territories and how the people in your house have  3 used it, your ancestors have used those two  4 territories.  In the adaawk and in the histories  5 that your grandfather has told you, was it described  6 how in the time before white people arrived in your  7 territory, let us say the time before these diseases  8 that you referred to, how many people would be in  9 your house that would be relying on the territory?  10 A    Well, if it was before the disease and we had two  11 separate -- and we are speaking of three houses now  12 the Tenimgyet house at Xsi gwin ixst'aat, the 'Wii  13 hloots' house at An hoi hon and Gii lax ha's house  14 at what you call Sand Lake, Gii axsoi.  And each  15 house ranges anywhere from just house members, when  16 I say "house members", would range from about 20 to  17 around 65.  And when you add on all spouses then you  18 have a good number.  19 THE COURT:  Sorry, you said 20 to 75?  20 A    65.  21 THE TRANSLATOR:  I missed the name he gave for 'Wii Hloots'.  22 MR. GRANT:  23 Q    'Wii Hloots' house, you described where it was?  2 4        A   An gol hon.  25 THE TRANSLATOR:  What was the second word?  I miss that one.  26 MR. GRANT:  Miss Stevens indicated she missed a name.  He  27 referred to Tenimgyet's house at Xsi gwin ixst'aat,  'Wii Hloots' house at An gol hon and Gii lax ha's  house at Sand Lake or Git axsoi.  And aside from the 20 to 65 at each house, I'm  sorry, I just missed your answer.  What did you say  about spouses?  Yeah, with spouses the number would increase.  As I  was just describing yesterday the sharing, they  would have up to sometimes up to 100 people with  their spouses and whatever yeilding riches in your  territory, whether it be berries, whether it be  fish, whether it be caribou, this would then  increase the number in your house for sharing when  the people come to the territory for these things.  And this you are referring to is the time before by  Gii lax ha joined up as part of Tenimgyet's house?  Yes.  And it was at the time before 'Wii Hloots' --  Yes.  -- killing occurred and he joined the house?  Yes.  28  29  30  Q  31  32  33  A  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  Q  42  43  A  44  Q  45  A  46  Q  47  A 4776  1  Q  2  3  A  4  5  6  Q  7  8  9  10  A  11  Q  12  13  A  14  Q  15  A  16  Q  17  A  18  Q  19  20  21  22  A  23  Q  24  A  25  Q  26  A  27  Q  28  A  29  Q  30  31  A  32  Q  33  A  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  THE  COURT  42  MR.  GRANT  43  THE  COURT  44  MR.  GRANT  45  THE  COURT  46  MR.  GRANT  47  THE  TRANS  What about after those houses combined at Xsi gwin  ixst'aat?  We were greatly -- like I said, the disease just  about wiped us all out.  And I think at the lowest  point there might have been only ten.  Okay.  But in relation -- the joinder of those three  houses, was that in --.  Well, let me ask you this,  the disease that you are referring to, is this the  disease after the arrival of the white man?  Yes.  The joinder of those houses, those three houses, did  that occur long before that time?  Yes.  And there is a Limx oo'y that refers to it?  Yes.  Which refers to ancient time?  Yes.  You've referred to a number of people who you've  allowed to use your territory, Henry Wilson, Soloman  Marsden.  Have you -- you know Stanley Williams or  Gwis gyen?  Yes.  And he is a plaintiff in this action?  Yes.  He is of the Fireweed Clan?  Yes.  His house is originally from Kitsegukla?  Yes.  Do you allow him to use the resources from your  territory?  Yes.  Why?  Because through sharing and his father that did a  great amount of work, you might say, within our  house.  When people die, you know, the expense is  tremendous, the pressure.  We were down at our  lowest level and his father Ts'ii yee did a lot of  work for us and helped us quite a bit, so we  consider Stanley as amnigwootxu in that context, in  that capacity.  I'm sorry, what was that word?  It was the name of his father.  He said we considered Stanley as one of our --.  Amnigwootxu.  Amnigwootxu.  Do you have a number for his father's name?  LATOR:  No, I have got the spelling. 4777  1  MR.  GRANT  2  THE  COURT  3  MR.  GRANT  4  Q  5  A  6  Q  7  A  8  THE  COURT  9  MR.  GRANT  10  Q  11  A  12  13  Q  14  A  15  Q  16  A  17  Q  18  A  19  Q  20  21  A  22  Q  23  A  24  Q  25  26  27  A  28  29  30  31  32  33  THE  COURT  34  35  MR.  GRANT  36  THE  TRANS  37  THE  COURT  38  THE  TRANS  39  MR.  GRANT  40  Q  41  42  43  44  45  A  46  47  We all refer  Yes.  T-s-apostrophe-i-i y-e-e.  Do you know Elija Turner?  Yes.  He is from the house of Yal?  Yes.  :  Is that Eli or Elija?  Is it Eli?  We know him as both, but it is Elija.  to him as Eli.  He's quite elderly now?  Yes.  Yal, George Turner, is his brother?  Yes.  Who is a plaintiff in this action?  Yes.  Did you, in the past, allow Elija Turner to use the  resources from your territory?  Yes.  And he is again from Gisk'aast or Fireweed house?  Yes.  Why did you give him permission to use your  resources, or maybe more properly your grandfather  did?  In ancient history Xsi gwin ixst'aat in Tsihl  Gwellii area were always known An t'ookxw.  And it  simply means a banquet table that you have to  welcome people and grant permission to them to come  and use it, use your territory.  That is a law  that's been handed down that we do even today.  :  I'm sorry, Mr. Grant, there was a word there that I  didn't get preceded by banquet table.  :  An t'ookxw.  LATOR:  689 on the word list.  :  689?  LATOR:  Yes.  Who today -- let's say this, in this court case,  you, along with other Gitksan chiefs, are making  claims.  One of your claims is for a declaration of  ownership.  What are you, Tenimgyet and your house  members claiming ownership over?  Like I indicated and tried to show here that we have  interests, quite highly interest in our own  territories Xsi gwin ixst'aat and Tsihl Gwellii, but 4778  1 our interest far reaches out to other territories  2 through silksi witxw, both your mother and your  3 father's side and like relatives from other  4 villages.  This what we call the helping of each  5 other, a phrase that we have in our language naa  6 hlimoot' is to help each other.  And what is so  7 unique about that is we have a phrase that my  8 grandparents, when I say "grandparents", I have  9 repeated their names over and over:  Geoffrey,  10 Wallace and Jack and my grandfather Charley Smith  11 said that the phrase about our Gitksan and  12 Wet'suwet'en relations, interconnections of marriage  13 we are like a sgano, a woven fabric, solid.  That is  14 the way we look at ourselves as a woven fabric  15 together.  16 MR. GRANT:  Just one moment.  Can you give the spelling for --  17 THE TRANSLATOR:  Naa hlimoot'.  18 MR. GRANT:  There is two words the witness said.  Can you give  19 the spelling for it?  20 THE TRANSLATOR:  Naa hlimoot' is 606 on the word list and sgano  is 679.  Now, you said your grandfathers would talk about  this sgano --  Yes.  -- woven together like a fabric.  When they referred  to that, who were they referring to?  The whole area, the whole Skeena, the whole -- all  the houses, all the territories woven together as  one.  But each house has a special interest in their  own territory.  And when you say all the Skeena and all the houses,  are you referring to all the Gitksan houses?  All the Gitksan houses.  And I have indicated we  have relatives into the Hagwilet, Wet'suwet'en area  too.  And I believe you are referring to Spookw?  Spookw, yes.  Just to be clear, if, for example, somebody came to  you and said they wanted to log on Tenimgyet's  territory, would you make the decision as to whether  that logging should occur alone or with others?  Well, if they came to me one on one, that's the  first one, no, I have to approach my house.  And I  have to -- after I have approached the house  membership and then in turn I would pool a small  committee.  Like I have indicated yesterday, what we  21  22 MR.  GRANT  23  Q  24  25  A  26  Q  27  28  A  29  30  31  32  Q  33  34  A  35  36  37  Q  38  A  39  Q  40  41  42  43  A  44  45  46  47 4779  1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  did with the Haalus thing, then we have a discussion  group. And then after we have done this, then we  would have to call everybody in to participate in  what we are trying to do or what somebody else is  trying to do on their territory. Like I said, my  mother is from Kitsegukla and others from  Kitwancool.  Q    When you referred to this yesterday, is this what  you refer to yesterday as picking different people?  A    Yes.  Q    From all the people?  A    Yes.  Q    And all the clans?  A    Yes, different.  Q    And then when you said when you got everybody  together, is this what you are referring to at the  feast?  A    Yes.  Q    Again I just want to touch on the same thing with  another question.  If you were asked to allow  clear-cutting on your territory, can you allow that?  After you've gone through all this process, could  you allow your territory to be clear-cut?  No.  A  Q  A  Under Gitksan law?  No, I don't think I would.  No, I wouldn't because I  would be the dumbest chief ever alive if I did this  on my own.  I have to consult my house first.  Like  I said, I can't do it alone.  MR. GRANT:  My Lord, I believe that I am substantially completed  my direct.  I just wondered if we could take an  earlier break so that I could just review my notes.  THE COURT:  I may be a little bit longer.  I will try to get  back before 11:30.  THE REGISTRAR:  Order in court, this court will recess.  (PROCEEDINGS ADJOURNED at 11:05)  I hereby certify the foregoing to  be a true and accurate transcript  of the proceedings herein  transcribed to the best of my  skill and ability.  LISA REID, OFFICIAL REPORTER  UNITED REPORTING SERVICE LTD.  -h2 4780  1  2  3  4  5 THE  6 THE  7 MR.  8  9  10  11 MR.  12 THE  13 THE  14 MR.  15  16  17 THE  18 MR.  19 THE  2 0 MR.  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  2 9 THE  30 THE  31 MR.  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44 THE  4 5 MR.  46  47  A. Mathews (for Plaintiffs)  (PROCEEDINGS RESUMED PURSUANT TO AN ADJOURNMENT AT  11:35 A.M.)  REGISTRAR:  Order in court.  Ready to proceed, my lord.  COURT:  Yes, Mr. Grant?  GRANT:  Q    Yes, I just have a couple of questions.  You know  Jimmy Tait?  A    Yes, Axtii hiikw, Jimmy Tait.  GRANT:  He is the daughter of Vina Tait?  COURT:  I am sorry?  WITNESS:  The son.  GRANT:  I am sorry, the -- yes, he is the son of Vina Tait?  Yes.  V-i-n-a.  Yes.  Thank you.  Q  A  COURT  GRANT  COURT  GRANT  Q  A  Q  A  Q  Is he a member of your house?  Yes.  And that's Vina Turner.  That's Vina Turner now?  Yes.  Just refer you to the genealogy of page 4, tab 1,  Exhibit 346.  Should be referred to under Vina and  George's name?  A    Yes.  COURT:  Vina Tait is married to George?  WITNESS:  Yes, married to George Turner.  GRANT:  Q    She is married to George Turner, yes.  Do you know  Edgar Wilson, Sam Derrick and Selina Jack?  A    Yes.  Q    Are they all related to Axtii hiikw and Henry Tait?  A    Yes.  Q    Are they members of your house?  A    Yes.  Q    Should they be referred to on that same page as part  of the dotted line?  A    Yes.  Q    They were adopted into your house?  A    Yes.  COURT:  What was the third name, please?  GRANT:  Edgar Wilson, Sam Derrick and Selina Jacks.  I think  that's -- do you know the spelling?  C-e-1-i-n-a, is  that right? 4781  1 THE SPELLER:  MR.  THE  MR.  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47 THE  GRANT  COURT  GRANT  Q  A  Q  COURT:  S-e-1-i-n-a.  S-e-1-i-n-a, thank you.  J-a-c-k-s?  J-a-c-k, yes.  And so to that extent this genealogy  should be amended, Exhibit 346?  Yes, that's right.  My lord, one matter before my friend commences.  That's the conclusion of my direct.  I wish to refer  you to the pleadings, page 12 of Schedule A, and I  don't think it is necessary to take the map out.  I  just want to give notice to my friends that in light  of the evidence of this witness, it is my  understanding -- you can see half-way down there on  page 12, it says:  "Thence in a southerly direction along the  height of land the west of the Cedar River  watershed to a point on Sand Lake, said point  being 5890 metres west and 3900 plus or minus  north of the north-west corner of lot 1041  Coast Land District R5."  Then it says:  "Thence in a south easterly direction along  the centre line of the aforesaid unnamed  creek."  It is my understanding that this description  excludes Sand Lake from the territory claimed by the  plaintiffs, and I wish to give my friends notice  that I will be applying in light of this witness'  evidence to amend this description and the map which  is Schedule W to the Statement of Claim to include  Sand Lake so that it coincides with the description  given by this witness, the description in Art  Mathews Senior's affidavit and the description on  Exhibit 349.  And I wish to give my friends notice  of that before cross-examination started so they  would not be taken by surprise.  And I have no  objection to them questioning the witness on the  assumption of that amendment being made or of course  they may want to question them on the assumptions  not made but that they at least know that that's our  intent.  Thank you. 4782  1  MR.  GRANT  2  3  THE  COURT  4  MR.  GRANT  5  THE  COURT  6  MR.  GRANT  7  8  9  THE  COURT  10  MR.  PLANT  11  12  THE  COURT  13  MR.  PLANT  14  15  16  THE  REGIS  17  MR.  PLANT  18  19  MR.  GRANT  20  21  CROSS-EXA  22  Q  23  24  25  26  27  A  28  Q  29  30  A  31  MR.  PLANT  32  MR.  GRANT  33  34  35  36  37  38  MR.  PLANT  39  40  THE  COURT  41  42  43  44  45  MR.  PLANT  46  Q  47  I would be relying on the rule that allows the  pleadings to be amended to comply with the evidence.  Yes, to conform with the evidence.  Yes, to conform with the evidence.  All right.  Thank you, Mr. Grant.  Mr. Plant?  On the basis of that, that's the conclusion of my  examination.  Thank you, Mr. Mathews, if you would  answer Mr. Plant's questions.  Mr. Plant?  Thank you, my lord.  I have a document book for your  lordship --  Thank you.  -- for the witness and for my friends.  Perhaps I  could hand up your lordship's copy.  I will be  referring to the plaintiff's document book also.  \R:  Okay.  Now, Mr. Mathews, if I could ask you to turn to tab  8 of that book that I have --  Your book.  EXAMINATION BY MR. PLANT:  -- that I have put before you.  And do you recognize  the document there as the affidavit -- as a copy of  the affidavit that you swore when you were answering  the interrogatories that were delivered to you by  the Province in this action?  Yes.  The answers to those interrogatories were true, were  they?  Yes.  I'd like to refer you to the fourth page of tab 8.  Well, I think that the witness has explained some  evidence and there is 108 questions here and I think  it's sort of a general -- overtly general for him to  say all the answers are true given of the extent of  the witness that may have varied with some of that  evidence.  I am not sure I understand my friend's concern  but —  He is saying that it is perhaps too general a  question to put 108 questions in mind to say they  are all true.  Perhaps your friend wouldn't object  if you said you thought they were true when you  swore them to be true.  Well then, we will start with that, Mr. Mathews.  At  the time you swore the affidavit in answer to the 1  2  3  A  4  5  6  Q  7  8  9  10  A  11  Q  12  13  A  14  Q  15  A  16  17  Q  18  19  20  21  A  22  Q  23  24  25  26  27  28  A  29  Q  30  31  32  A  33  Q  34  A  35  Q  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  4783  interrogatories, you thought that the answers were,  that you were giving, were true?  Yes.  My first answer, I thought you only first  meant the first page.  You make yourself clear, I  can tell -- give you a better answer.  Sure.  I will do my best to make myself clear.  Let  me say this:  If at any time I am not making myself  perfectly clear, please say so and I will try to do  my j ob.  Thank you.  We will get along.  And try to make myself clear.  There were a number  of questions and answers?  Can I have some water?  I'd be happy to give you some water.  This what we do when we get along, chief system.  You give me water, we'll get along beautifully.  Now, Mr. Mathews, if I could ask you to turn to  question number 22 which is in the fourth page of  the extract from your interrogatories which appears  at tab 8.  Do you understand me so far?  Pretty well, yes.  Now, could you read question number 22 and the  answer and tell me specifically if the answer to  that question was true and is true today?  The  answer is on the page that you are looking at, Mr.  Mathews, and the answer continues on the following  page.  I have read it.  And that was your answer to question 22 at the time  that you delivered the answers to the  interrogatories and that answer was true?  Yes.  And it's true today?  Yes.  And in particular could you look at the first  paragraph of your answer where you say in part:  "I am the controller.  I am like a chairman.  I  am in control.  I decide everything on use of  resources within the house.  We don't overlook  our elders.  We always seek their guidance and  wisdom.  The elders come to me, too.  It goes  both ways."  Now, when you say elders in that context, Mr.  Mathews, are you referring to the elders in your  house? 1  A  2  3  4  5  6  Q  7  8  9  10  A  11  12  Q  13  A  14  15  Q  16  17  18  A  19  20  21  22  Q  23  24  25  26  A  27  28  Q  29  30  A  31  32  Q  33  34  A  35  Q  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  A  43  44  Q  45  A  46  Q  47  A  4784  I am referring as I have indicated to my answers  that we work as a Gitksan group so our house  system -- and I am speaking on behalf of my house,  not on behalf of myself.  I speak on behalf of my  house.  In the final analysis, is it you as head chief of  the house who makes the decision after the process  of consultation has gone through -- that you have  gone through has been carried out?  After all have been said and my house would say then  it is, yes.  Then it is your decision?  That not entirely my decision.  The decision of my  house I voiced.  So the decision is a collective decision which you  give voice to; is that the accurate way of saying  it?  It is my house -- my house and other -- I have to  consider my wilxsi leks, my 'nii dii and all the  other chiefs that I have conferred with, yes, then I  could answer on behalf of my house, yes.  Would I be correct then in saying that the final  decision is the product of a consensus among the  members of your house and the other people with whom  you consult?  The final analysis, yes, if I get permission from my  house, yes.  So you need permission from your house in order to  make a decision on the use of the resources?  Not direct permission, but guidance, advice and  wisdom.  And you also go outside the house for that guidance  and wisdom?  Yes, that's our very law.  Now, could I have the document book which my friend  had produced placed before the witness?  I will do  it myself.  I want to refer you to a couple of  photographs, Mr. Mathews, and I'd like to start with  the three photographs which appear at tab 7, that's  Exhibit 355.  Do you have those in front of you, Mr.  Mathews?  I got pictures.  What you want with the pictures?  I  got three pictures, yes.  Yes.  You have them in front of you?  Yes.  When were they taken?  This one was in 1981 or somewhere in that area 1  2  3  4  Q  5  A  6  7  8  9  Q  10  11  A  12  Q  13  14  15  A  16  Q  17  18  A  19  Q  20  21  22  A  23  Q  24  25  A  26  27  Q  28  A  29  Q  30  31  32  A  33  Q  34  35  A  3 6 MR.  PLANT  37  3 8 MR.  GRANT  39  4 0 MR.  PLANT  41  Q  42  43  44  45  46  47  4785  because we had already started to build this smoke  house when my grandfather Jeffrey was still alive  and I got permission.  Could I just interrupt?  I was still answering your answer -- your question  if you could wait until I finish.  And like I said,  I asked permission for my grandfather to build this  particular smoke house, yes.  Your grandfather is the Jeffrey Morgan that you have  spoken of?  Yes.  Now, the photograph that you are pointing at, is  that the first photograph in the tab if you pick up  the —  Yes.  -- plastic sheet?  So that photograph was taken in  1981?  Yes, somewhere in around there.  And now, turning to the last two pictures which are  on the second page, can you tell me when those  pictures were taken?  These were taken about the same time, yes.  So would I be correct in assuming they were also  taken in or around 1981?  In and around there, yes.  I don't put dates on  pictures I take.  But that's your best recollection?  That's my best recollection, yes.  Could I ask you to turn to tab 10, please?  That has  the -- should have approximately 50 photographs.  Have you got that?  Yes.  Now, can you tell me when these photographs were  taken?  This -- February this year.  And you know if that applies to all of the  photographs in that tabulation?  I can inform the court that that is the case.  I am  advising the plaintiffs that that is the case.  Well, I am just as interested in the witness'  evidence as I am in my friends assurances, but I am  happy with either.  Now, could you turn to photograph number 29 at  tab 10 which I should say is Exhibit 351.  Now, you  recall looking at this photograph in the upper  left-hand corner on my copy of this page.  You 4786  1 recall looking at this photograph and marking it  2 during the course of your evidence in chief?  3 A Yes.  4 Q And were you there when this photograph was taken?  5 A Yes.  6 Q And this photograph as I understand it is taken near  7 Kitsum Kalum Lake or right on the shore of Kitsum  8 Kalum Lake?  9 A Yes.  10 Q What was the purpose of your trip there in February  11 1988?  12 A Purpose of the trip?  13 Q Yes?  14 A To better advise and show my proper markings,  15 boundaries, and some of our relatives from outside  16 thought we included these areas Tsimxsan which we  17 don't do, so these photos would be quite useful for  18 them once we go and I show them that we have no  19 claim on these areas.  2 0 Q Who were the people who accompanied you on that  21 trip?  22 A Who was accompanying me?  If you turn page a bit  23 more, then you will see us all in a group there.  At  24 page -- I mean, what's the number, 44?  25 THE INTERPRETER:  41.  26 THE WITNESS:  41.  2 7 MR. PLANT:  28 Q Photograph 41?  29 A Yes.  30 Q Yes.  Could you identify -- well, first of all is  31 that you on the far right?  32 A Yes.  33 Q And Neil Sterritt Junior on the far left?  34 A Yes.  35 Q Who are the two people in the middle, please?  36 A My dad -- my father and my brother.  37 Q Is that your father, the gentleman --  38 A In the green.  39 Q — on the left?  40 A In the green jacket, yes.  41 Q You say your brother.  Charlie?  42 A No.  43 Q Ivan?  44 A Ivan.  45 Q Now, upper left-hand corner of the same page it has  46 photograph 41 on it, appears to me to be northbound  47 photograph of the tree which is shown in photograph 1  2  3  A  4  Q  5  6  7  8  9  A  10  Q  11  12  13  A  14  15  16  17  18  Q  19  20  A  21  22  23  24  Q  25  A  26  Q  27  28  A  29  30  31  Q  32  33  A  34  35  36  Q  37  38  39  A  40  Q  41  42  A  43  44  45  Q  46  47  4787  36, that's the tree with the blaze on it; is that  correct?  This one?  Which one is it?  Can you come show me?  I don't need you to look at -- that actually doesn't  have a number on it so let's just look at photograph  number -- I think it's number 36 because that's the  photograph we have looked at before.  That's the  place that you identified as a corner post?  Yes.  And who was it -- it was your grandfather Wallace  Morgan who first identified that tree to you as a  corner post?  Yes.  He then took me here and showed me this tree  which I have already testified that he says this is  our corner post, don't go beyond this part.  If you  were trapping then or taking off berries or  whatever, hunting, this is where you stop.  When did your grandfather Wallace Morgan take you  out there to show you that tree?  I don't recollect what date it was but that was when  the old road used to come through this part before  the new paved road today and that was about at least  three or four years before his death.  Three or four years before Wallace's death?  About that time until around that time, yes.  Was that the first time that you had ever seen that  tree?  Myself, yes, but other people that I have addressed  here like his sons have seen this particular  marking, yes.  That's because they have told -- and you know that  because they have told you that?  Because I was shown by my grandfather, yes.  And as  a matter of fact, I told even one of their sons was  born not even not too far away from here.  Was the trip that you took your grandfather Wallace  Morgan three or four years before his death the  first time that you had ever gone out to Sand Lake?  With this particular area, yes.  Was it the first time that you had ever gone to the  general area of Sand Lake?  Yes.  And that's the time where he shown me all our  boundaries, all our mountains were named, all our  creeks were shown.  And was that the time when he told you that there  had been a carin there, a pile of rocks before the  tree? 4788  1  A  2  3  4  5  Q  6  A  7  Q  8  9  10  A  11  12  13  Q  14  15  16  A  17  18  19  Q  20  21  A  22  Q  23  24  25  26  A  27  Q  28  A  29  30  Q  31  A  32  33  Q  34  A  35  36  37  Q  38  39  A  4 0 THE  COURT:  41 THE  WITNESS  42 MR.  PLANT:  43  Q  44  A  45  Q  46  47  A  Yes.  We asked him how, and he said at the time his  grandfather told him that this marker, yes, there  was some rocks there at one time or whatever they  had available, they would use for this corner post.  The rocks aren't there any more, though?  No.  Can you turn to tab 11, please, I guess it is the  next tab after tab 10, and that is Exhibit 354.  You  know when that photograph was taken, Mr. Mathews?  No.  This was just given to me by my grandfather  Jeffrey to show me exactly where he wanted to set  his net, Miinhl am K'ooxst.  Did he give it to you at that time when you were  discussing with him the place that he wanted to  fish?  He gave it to me later.  He told me the exact place  but then later on he said, here, this is the  particular place where I want to keep my net on.  Now, Mr. Mathews, just change the subject.  I  understand you were born in Kitwanga?  Yes.  You told us about your apprenticeship as a saw  filer.  Did that occur -- well, let me ask you this:  Did you ever actually attend Pacific Vocational  Institute?  Yes, yes.  And where is that, please?  In Vancouver, Burnaby on Canada Way and Willingdon  if you want to be exact.  Willingdon and Canada Way.  And when was that that you attended?  Like I said, the first one was -- want me to show  you my certificates?  No, I don't need to see your certificates.  I thought you didn't believe my past or something,  but it was around in 1978, the first, yes.  I  completed the other one in 1984 I think it was.  And that meant that you came down here for a period  of time to take some courses?  That particular time only took ten days at the most.  In 1984?  :  Yes.  How about in 1978?  How long was the course then?  It expands, it take a month.  And those courses related to your training as a saw  filer; is that correct?  Yes. 4789  1  Q  2  3  4  A  5  Q  6  A  7  Q  8  9  10  A  11  Q  12  A  13  14  15  Q  16  A  17  Q  18  19  A  20  Q  21  A  22  Q  23  A  24  Q  25  A  26  Q  27  A  28  Q  29  A  30  Q  31  A  32  Q  33  A  34  Q  35  A  36  37  Q  38  A  39  4 0 THE  COURT  41 MR.  PLANT  42  Q  43  A  44  45  4 6 MR.  PLANT  47 THE  COURT  Would I be correct in assuming that you have worked  for or worked at the Westar Mill, Kitwanga full time  since 1971?  Yes, right on our reserve.  And that's a year-round job?  Yes.  Now, does your -- the person you have described as  your Uncle Henry Tait, do I have that right, you  call him your uncle?  Yes.  Does he also live and work in Kitwanga?  No.  He lives in Gitwingax but he doesn't work on  the mill now.  If you are talking about the sawmill,  no, he doesn't work there.  What is his job?  He is a commercial fisherman.  And Henry's brother, Horace, is also a member of  your house?  Yes.  And does he live in Kitwanga?  Yes.  What is his employment?  Same thing, commercial fisherman.  And you have a brother Charles or Charlie?  Yes.  Does he live in Kitwanga?  Yes.  And what's his employment?  He works at the sawmill.  Westar Mill?  Yes.  And your brother, Ivan, does he live in Kitwanga?  Yes.  Where does he work?  He is a janitor in our new hall, the T'a'ootsip  hall.  The hall?  It calls the T'a'ootsip.  The chiefs give the name  because that hall is our feast hall.  I didn't get the name of the hall.  Neither did I.  T'a'ootsip.  Same as the battle hill.  They took the  name of the battle hill and put it on the community  hall because it is our feast hall.  Does your lordship require a spelling?  Yes, please. 4790  1 THE  SPELLER  2 MR.  PLANT:  3  Q  4  5  A  6  Q  7  A  8  Q  9  10  A  11  Q  12  A  13  Q  14  15  16  17  A  18  Q  19  20  A  21  Q  22  23  A  24  25  Q  26  A  27  Q  28  A  29  Q  30  31  32  A  33  34  35  Q  36  37  38  39  A  40  41  Q  42  43  A  44  Q  45  A  46  47 THE  COURT:  :  It is number 255 in the word list.  Now, your sister Mary has a son Arthur Shanoss  Junior?  Yes.  Does he live in Kitwanga?  Yes.  Does he work in the village or does he have any  employment?  He works at the mill.  Westar Mill?  Yes.  Now, the village and the reserve, the main part of  the reserve of Gitwingax are located on the north  side of the Skeena, that is to say, the right bank  as you are looking downstream?  Looking downstream, yes.  At that point, the railway is on the village side,  the highway is on the other side of the Skeena?  Yes.  And there is a bridge across the Skeena river which  connects the village to the Yellowhead Highway?  We have got a number of bridges.  Which one you  talking, the big, long one?  The big one?  Yes.  There is one right at the village, isn't there?  Yes.  And then if you were to travel on that bridge and  keep going through the village north, you'd be on  Highway 37 which goes up to Cranberry Junction?  Once you leave 16, you would have been already on  37, not across the bridge.  The whole bridge section  is 37 so --  And then there is also a road that goes along the  north bank of the Skeena towards Hazelton which I  think is sometimes called the Hazelton-Cedarvale  Back Road?  First time I heard it.  We always call it the back  road.  It is the back road.  And that road comes to the  village?  Yes.  And you could drive to Hazelton on that road?  That was the only access road we had before the  bridge, yes, that's correct.  Where you cross the river to get to Hazelton? 4791  1  THE  WITNESS  2  3  4  5  MR.  PLANT:  6  Q  7  8  A  9  Q  10  A  11  12  13  14  Q  15  16  A  17  Q  18  A  19  Q  20  A  21  Q  22  23  24  A  25  26  27  Q  28  29  A  30  Q  31  A  32  33  34  35  MR.  PLANT:  36  MR.  GRANT:  37  MR.  PLANT:  38  39  40  MR.  GRANT:  41  THE  WITNESS  42  43  MR.  PLANT:  44  Q  45  46  47  A  :  You had to go right around.  You had to go right  around across Hazelton, then they would go across a  little place they call the Four-Mile Bridge that  cross the Skeena.  That road has been there for as long as you have  been around, hasn't it, Mr. Mathews?  In different sections, yes.  I am talking about the back road?  Yes.  Not the whole back road was there in my life  time, it was built in sections, in little sections.  As the loggings went through, they add it and add it  until they connect it right into the Hazelton area.  Can you tell me approximately how many people live  on the Gitwingax Indian Reserve Number 1?  About?  Yes?  And in around?  Yes?  Must be about little bit over 200, yes.  As I understand it, some of the members of the  Gitwingax Indian Band live off the reserve; is that  correct?  Yes.  They live off the reserve but every time we  put on a feast, they come back and perform their  duties as the member of our house.  How many of those people are there; that is to say,  how many members of the band live off the reserve?  I can't tell you.  That's a few of them, yes.  I beg your pardon?  There is a few of them off the reserve, yes, but I  can't tell you offhand how many.  If I know this, I  would have gone out and count them individually but  I can't tell you how many there are for sure.  My understanding is -- excuse me.  I am sorry.  My understanding is in 1983 there were approximately  160 members of the band who lived off the reserve.  Is that based on your knowledge?  Sound correct?  Well —  :  Well, I don't know.  Like I said, I don't know how  many in total.  Mr. Mathews, you were a member of the Gitwingax  Indian Band Council for some period of time in the  1970's?  Some time, yes. 1  Q  2  3  A  4  Q  5  6  A  7  Q  8  9  10  A  11  Q  12  A  13  Q  14  15  A  16  Q  17  A  18  19  Q  20  21  22  A  23  Q  24  A  25  Q  26  27  28  A  29  30  31  32  33  Q  34  35  A  36  Q  37  A  38  Q  39  40  A  41  Q  42  43  44  45  46  47  4792  From approximately 1971 to approximately 1977, would  that be correct?  Somewhere in there, yes.  After that, you have been a member of the band  council again; is that correct?  What you mean again?  You mean now?  Let me put it this way:  After 1977, you were not on  the band council for a period of time; is that  correct?  You mean I was unsuccessful, yes, to get in.  You ran for election and lost?  Somebody kicked me, yes.  And would I be correct then in assuming that you ran  again some time later and you won?  Yes.  When did you run again?  This is my -- going on to my third year after I was  unsuccessful again, yes.  I am not sure I understood the last answer.  Have  you been on the band council for the last three  years?  Yes.  And you are on the band council today?  Yes.  As part of your duties as a member of the band  council, do you keep track of who lives on the  reserve and who doesn't?  At times.  We -- in Kitwanga, my specific job is to  deal with education.  I chair the committee.  We  take turns chairing the committee meeting, another  council member, Gary Williams, while I am away, he  is chairing the education part of it.  So there are other members of council who are more  concerned with keeping track of the --  Yeah.  -- the numbers?  We work in different clumps, yes.  Now, my understanding, Mr. Mathews, is that the  Gitwingax Band Council administers nine reserves?  Yes.  And if you could turn to tab 12 of my book of  documents which means moving one book away from the  other and putting another in front of you.  I ask  you to look to paragraph number 4 of this document  which purports on its face to be an affidavit of  Glen Williams.  Glen Williams is now the chief  councillor of the band in Gitwingax; is that 4793  1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8 MR.  9  10  11  12  13  14  15 THE  16 MR.  17 THE  18  19  2 0 MR.  A  Q  A  PLANT  21  22  23  2 4 THE COURT  25  2 6 MR  27 THE  28  2 9 THE  30 THE  31  32  33  34 MR.  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  correct?  Yes.  Can you confirm for me that the nine reserves  administered by the Gitwingax Band Council are those  identified in paragraph 4 of Mr. Williams'  affidavit?  Yes, yeah.  My lord, I would tender the first page of this  document, tab 12, for that purpose only and should  advise your lordship that I don't have any intention  at the moment of referring to the balance of the  documents there, but I may change my intention, so I  am not going to ask you to take the rest of it out  yet.  Any objection to that, Mr. Grant?  Well —  If it is admitted, it will be merely as an  aide-memoire being a convenient description of the  nine Indian reserves.  That's not what I am concerned about.  It is the  second point my friend raises.  I am just wondering  whether it is proper for him basically to split the  document.  Well, it certainly makes it open to you to put the  rest of it in if you want to.  Fine.  Then on that point I will leave it, my lord.  All right.  The first page of Exhibit 12 will be the  next exhibit.  REGISTRAR:  364, my lord.  COURT:  First page only.  COURT  GRANT  COURT  GRANT:  GRANT  COURT  (EXHIBIT 364  FIRST PAGE OF EXHIBIT 12)  PLANT:  Q  A  Q  A  Q  Mr. Mathews, looking at the last item in that list  on what is now Exhibit 364, it says Squinlixstat,  S-q-u-i-n-1-i-x-s-t-a-t, Indian Reserve Number 3.  That's an Indian reserve at the mouth of Wilson  Creek; is that correct?  Not quite at the mouth of the Wilson Creek.  If you  see how that little reserve is, it misses that mouth  of the creek.  Is it upstream or downstream?  Upstream a bit.  Is that where the smoke house which you identified  in the three photographs at tab 7 of your document  book is located? 4794  1  A  2  3  Q  4  A  5  Q  6  A  7  Q  8  9  A  10  11  Q  12  A  13  14  15  Q  16  17  A  18  MR.  PLANT  19  20  21  THE  COURT  22  MR.  PLANT  23  THE  COURT  24  MR.  GRANT  25  26  27  THE  COURT  28  29  30  31  MR.  PLANT  32  Q  33  34  A  35  Q  36  A  37  Q  38  A  39  40  Q  41  42  A  43  44  45  THE  COURT  46  MR.  GRANT  47  THE  COURT  No.  It is -- like I said, this reserve totally  missed that.  So that the smoke house is off the reserve?  On my territory.  Is the reserve your territory?  Yes.  So where is the smoke house in relation to the  reserve land?  Your reserve land -- the provincial -- I mean the  federal reserve land.  It is not my reserve land?  Don't refer it as my reserve.  That's my territory  we are talking about.  I am not talking about  reserve land.  Well, in fact the Indian Reserve Squinlixstat Number  3 is administered by the Gitwingax Land Council?  Yes.  It is land held by Canada in trust for the Indians  of the Gitwingax, the band; isn't that so, Mr.  Mathews?  Isn't that a question of law, Mr. Plant?  That's fine.  The status of the reserves are.  I also think that the question is -- my friend's  assumptions are erroneous regarding that specific  reserve but that will flow out in due course.  All right.  We know the reserve is just upstream  from the smoke house -- I am sorry, from the mouth  of Wilson Creek and the smoke house is not on that  reserve.  That's all we know at the moment.  Yes.  Where is the smoke house in relation to the  reserve?  Downstream.  On the downstream side of the mouth of the river?  Downstream, yes.  Is it at the mouth or some distance downstream?  It is not right at the mouth, it is just a bit away  from it, yes.  When you say a bit away, are we talking a hundred  feet, a quarter of a mile?  No.  It will be within a hundred feet, yes, not that  close, but I mean within hundreds of feet, but not a  quarter of a mile.  Within a hundred feet of the mouth?  He said hundreds of feet, my lord.  Is that right, within hundreds of feet? 4795  1 THE  WITNESS  2 THE  COURT:  3 THE  WITNESS  4  5  6 MR.  PLANT:  7  Q  8  9  A  10  Q  11  A  12  Q  13  A  14  Q  15  A  16  Q  17  A  18  Q  19  A  20  21  22  Q  23  A  24  Q  25  26  A  27  28  Q  29  30  A  31  32  33  Q  34  35  36  A  37  Q  38  A  39  Q  40  41  A  42  Q  43  A  44  Q  45  46  A  47  :  Yes, about.  Less than a quarter of a mile?  :  Yes.  Well, I didn't know how to answer it.  One  of them didn't fit so I told him it is within a  hundred, not over a quarter.  Mr. Mathews, you live in a house on Gitwingax Indian  Reserve?  Yes.  And that reserve has running water?  It wouldn't flow if it didn't run.  Yes, it runs.  There is water servicing the houses?  Yes.  And there is electric power?  Yes.  The roads are paved?  Yes.  There is a primary school on the reserve now?  We had to fight like hell to get the school.  We  couldn't get any funding from DIA so we converted  our band council meeting room into a school, yes.  Does that school now have its own building?  Its own building using our council room, yes.  Does the band council have the -- does it use the  same facilities or are they different facilities?  No.  We had to move into a trailer to have our band  council administration.  It was important for you to fight like hell to get a  school on the reserve?  Yes.  Our chiefs advise us when we could came to a  meeting, they address that we have to have our own  school at the reserve, yes.  Would I be correct in assuming that the children who  attend that school are taught at least some or  perhaps all of their lessons in Gitksan?  Yes.  Is it some or all?  Some.  Now, I think you told us that when you went to  school, you weren't allowed to speak Gitksan?  Yes.  At school?  Yes, I wasn't allowed, yes.  Would it be fair to say that some of the people in  your generation learned more English than Gitksan?  No, just at the schoolyard but we spoke mostly  Gitksan, yes. 4796  1  Q  2  A  3  4  Q  5  6  7  8  9  A  10  11  12  13  Q  14  15  A  16  Q  17  18  A  19  20  Q  21  22  A  23  Q  24  25  A  26  Q  27  28  A  29  30  31  Q  32  A  33  34  35  Q  36  37  A  3 8 MR.  PLANT  39  4 0 MR.  GRANT  41 MR.  PLANT  42  Q  43  44  A  45  46  Q  47  A  Notwithstanding the rules of the school?  Yeah, when you have -- yes.  The rule, yeah, only  applies in the yard, yes.  Would it be fair to say that one of the reasons that  you're teaching Gitksan to the students that are  attending this school on the reserve is that you  want to make sure that the young people -- the young  Gitksan people don't lose their language?  Don't lose our culture, not the language.  I  sometimes go there and talk to these children and  try to relate what I have presented in front of this  court and we start them off in this direction, yes.  Now, there is a high school in Kitwanga but it is  not on the reserve; is that correct?  Within our territory, yes, not on the reserve.  And do the children from the reserve attend that  school if they carry on into high school years?  Yes.  The high school sits in our territory in what  we are claiming.  All of the children, the white children and the  Gitksan children in the Kitwanga area --  The white children come in on our territory, yes.  You told us a minute ago about the community hall.  That building, that was built recently?  Yes.  And I think you have told us that that's where the  feasts are now held in Gitwingax?  Yes.  The other villages use it because it is such a  nice building, it is roomy and it is comfortable,  yes .  You are a member of the Anglican Church?  I go to church but that doesn't mean I give up my  spiritual beliefs and my territory.  Yes, I go to  church.  And that's Saint Paul's Anglican Church on the  reserve?  Yes.  Now, as I understand it, there is a baseball field  on the reserve; is that correct?  I am sorry, I didn't hear the question?  Yes, and I should rephrase it.  Is there a baseball  field located on the reserve in Gitwingax?  I don't know about a baseball field but we got a  soccer field, yes.  A soccer field.  And a clubhouse?  What you call a clubhouse? 4797  1  MR.  GRANT:  2  THE  WITNESS  3  THE  COURT:  4  MR.  GRANT:  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  MR.  GRANT:  14  THE  COURT:  15  MR.  PLANT:  16  Q  17  18  19  20  A  21  Q  22  23  24  A  25  Q  26  27  A  28  Q  29  30  A  31  32  33  Q  34  A  35  THE  COURT:  36  MR.  PLANT:  37  THE  COURT:  38  THE  WITNESS  39  THE  COURT:  40  MR.  PLANT:  41  Q  42  43  44  45  A  46  Q  47  My lord —  :  A strip-tease joint or what you talking?  Just a moment, please, Mr. Mathews.  My friend -- I just wonder if there is any relevance  to a clubhouse on the reserve, if we are moving a  little far afield.  I just -- in terms of relevance  mind you, I know what your comments are, that if in  doubt we should admit it.  We have gone so far  afield in so many areas it seems to me in a  description of the amenities of the reserve it's not  objectionable I think to ask what those amenities  are in cross-examination to lead questions.  No, I am not objecting to the leading.  I think it is admissible.  Thank you, my lord.  I am not referring to a  strip-tease joint, Mr. Mathews.  I am wondering if  there is a facility near the soccer field for a  changing room?  Changing room, yes.  As I understand it, or let me put it in another way,  do you have any involvement with sports on the  reserve?  Yes.  And have you been the head of a committee which has  something to do with sports activities?  Yes.  And would I be correct in assuming that Gitwingax  Indians have an active baseball team?  No, we don't have a baseball team.  We have a soccer  team, we have a Softball team, and we have a  fastball team.  But no hardball?  No.  Only in this lawsuit.  Now, just changing the subject again for a minute.  I am sorry, soccer, fastball?  :  And Softball, ladies Softball.  Oh, yes.  It was my mistake to include Softball and fastball  under the generic heading of baseball.  Now, Mr.  Mathews, your grandfather Wallace Morgan, was he a  commercial fisherman?  Yes.  And was your grandfather Jeffrey Morgan also a  commercial fisherman? 4796  1  A  2  Q  3  4  A  5  Q  6  A  7  Q  8  9  10  A  11  Q  12  A  13  14 THE  COURT:  15  16 THE  WITNESS  17 MR.  PLANT:  18  Q  19  20  21  A  22  Q  23  24  A  25  26  27  Q  28  29  30  A  31  Q  32  33  34  35  A  36  37  38  39  Q  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  Yes.  And their brother Jack Morgan, was he also a  commercial fisherman?  Yes.  Was your father ever a commercial fisherman?  Yes.  How many years did your father -- perhaps I should  ask you this first:  Is your father still a  commercial fisherman?  No.  For how many years was he employed at that task?  Well, I was too young when he started but I know  that he ended fishing career in about around 1970.  When you say commercial fisherman, do you mean at  the coast?  :  Yes.  When your father worked in the commercial fishery at  the coast, did he live at the coast during the  season?  Yes, for about a month and a half.  Did he take your mother and your -- and the rest of  your family down there with him?  Yes, they would go, but at this time I used to stay  at home and stayed with my grandfather at Xsi gwin  ixst'aat until his death in 1949.  After your grandfather died in 1949, and I should  pause here, you are referring to your grandfather  Charles Smith?  That's right, yes.  After he died in 1949, my understanding is that you  did not, neither you nor your mother nor your  father, returned to Xsi gwin ixst'aat until  approximately 1981, 1982; is that correct?  We returned but we didn't actually live there.  We  took fish out; we went to berry patches; we went  hunting but actually living on there, no, we didn't  live on there.  I will come back to that, again, Mr. Mathews.  Perhaps I could ask you now to look at the tab  number 14 in the book of documents that I have  prepared.  There is some photographs here, Mr.  Mathews, and I'd just like you to identify them for  me quickly if you could.  I understand that the  first photograph is a picture of the gas station and  restaurant and service station that's located at the  junction of Highway 16 and 37; is that correct? 4799  1  A  2  Q  3  4  A  5  Q  6  7  8  A  9  10  Q  11  12  13  14  15  A  16  Q  17  A  18  19  Q  20  21  A  22  Q  23  24  A  25  Q  26  A  27  28  Q  29  30  A  31 MR.  PLANT  32  33 MR.  GRANT  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  4 6 THE  COURT  47  Yes, there is a restaurant there, yes.  That's a picture of it there in photograph number 1,  Mr. Mathews?  Yes.  Photograph number 2, the bottom of that page is a  picture of part of the Westar Timber operations at  Gitwingax?  If this is the operation, I don't want to work  there.  It is just a pile of rubble.  I am not sure that I would either.  Ignoring the  pile of rubble off there on the right, there appears  to be some more organized activity there.  Would you  agree with me that that is part of the Westar Timber  operation?  I could see a few boards, yes.  I am sorry, I didn't hear you?  I see a few pile of boards, pile of lumber here.  Must be, yes.  Well, you see the structure on the right-hand side  of the picture which has a logging truck under it?  Yes.  That's part of the Westar Timber Mill at Kitwanga;  isn't it?  No, that's a trailer loading hoist.  It has nothing to do with the Westar Timber Mill?  It has.  It just loads the trailer off the truck but  it is not a sawmill.  I wasn't suggesting it was.  It is part of the  premises?  Yes, part of the premises.  Thank you.  Could you turn to the third photograph,  Mr. Mathews?  Before my friend asks regarding this, these of  course as always are, as both sides have to deal  with, our documents I don't think are listed yet,  but he provided me with photocopies.  With respect  to photo number 3, I want to advise my friend that  that photo was a photocopy and this is -- I --  neither I nor the witness really had an opportunity  to really identify it because the photocopy that we  had was poor unlike -- I am not objecting to the  others and I am not objecting to this, I just want,  before the witness answers any questions about it,  that in fact effectively this was unidentifiable on  the photocopy, this number 3.  We will see if he can identify this one.  If he  can't, he can't. 4800  1  MR.  PLANT  2  3  4  5  6  MR.  GRANT  7  8  THE  COURT  9  MR.  GRANT  10  MR.  PLANT  11  Q  12  13  A  14  Q  15  16  17  18  19  20  A  21  Q  22  A  23  Q  24  25  A  26  Q  27  A  28  29  30  Q  31  A  32  Q  33  A  34  Q  35  A  36  Q  37  A  38  Q  39  40  A  41  Q  42  43  A  44  45  46  47  And at least my friend will certainly go with me to  this extent that I gave him these photocopies quite  a few days ago which is a far cry from the extent of  the timelyness of disclosure that I had with his  photographs in his document book.  Mr. Mathews --  I don't concur with my friend's comments but I don't  want to get into a debate here in court.  Mr. Grant has had the last word on this subject.  Thank you, my lord.  I am extremely happy to let him have it.  The  photograph at tab 3?  Yes.  Perhaps since your counsel has said that you did not  have an opportunity to really examine the photocopy  before, you could just take a few minutes and look  at it and then tell me if you can identify the  building that's shown in approximately the left  middle of the photograph?  You mean that train station is all boarded up?  Is that the old CNR station in Kitwanga?  That's the guys we kicked off our land, yes.  The photograph number 4, can you identify the  building there?  Looking at it, yes.  Look like --  It is a store in Kitwanga?  Yes, that provides local services for us.  That's  the -- because the town is many miles away so this  is the closest store on the village.  Is this on or off the reserve?  It is on the reserve, yes.  It is on the reserve?  Yes.  Is this where you and your family do their shopping?  Sometimes, yes.  Where do you do the rest of your shopping?  We move around.  We don't stop in one place.  We --  Could I impose on you to turn the page and look at  photograph number 5?  Beautiful, isn't it?  Well, I was impressed.  Is that the community hall  that is used as the feast hall?  Yeah, our feast hall and the name of this hall is  T'a'ootsip and when it opened we had all the  activities going on there and we had liquor dance  and all that but, as of this year, the chief -- all  the hereditary chiefs say no more liquor dances and 4801  1  2  3  4  5  MR.  GRANT:  6  7  THE  COURT:  8  MR.  GRANT:  9  MR.  PLANT:  10  Q  11  12  13  A  14  15  16  Q  17  18  19  A  20  21  22  THE  COURT:  23  THE  WITNESS  24  MR.  PLANT:  25  Q  26  27  A  28  Q  29  A  30  Q  31  32  A  33  34  Q  35  A  36  Q  37  A  38  Q  39  40  A  41  THE  COURT:  42  43  44  45  46  47  since then, we have stopped.  No more permits will  be used as dance.  Because of the feasts that are  held in there, they didn't want to mix the two  together.  Just wondered if Miss Stevens had the spelling of  that name, the name of the hall.  It is the same name as the battle.  Okay, yes.  I am told that the photograph marked number 6 is a  picture of a bridge on the back road.  Do you  recognize that, Mr. Mathews?  We don't have this type of bridge on the back road.  We are talking about earlier.  Which back road is  this?  Well, my instructions, and I am -- I stand to be  corrected, are that this is a photograph of a bridge  on the Hazelton-Cedarvale Back Road?  If it is -- that the case, it is not the one.  This  I don't know.  Like I say, this one doesn't look  like the one going to Hazelton.  You don't recognize it?  :  I know it.  Well, do you recognize the bridge in photograph  number 6?  Yes, but it is not the Hazelton Road bridge.  And where is it?  You took the picture.  Actually I didn't, Mr. Mathews, so you tell me where  the bridge is?  This particular bridge look like it is the bridge  going -- access bridge going to Cedarvale.  So is that then west of Kitwanga?  West mean down river?  Down?  Yes.  And is it on the right bank as you're going down  river, the north side?  Yes.  We are going to have to adjourn, Mr. Plant, please  until 2:00.  Thank you. 4802  1  2 THE REGISTRAR:  Order in court.  Court will adjourn until two.  3  4 (PROCEEDINGS AJOURNED AT 12:31 P.M. FOR AN  5 ADJOURNMENT)  6  7 I hereby certify the foregoing to be  8 a true and accurate transcript of the  9 proceedings herein, transcribed to the  10 best of my skill and ability.  11  12  13  14  15  16 TANNIS DEFOE, Official Reporter  17 United Reporting Service Ltd.  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47 4803  (PROCEEDINGS RESUMED PURSUANT TO LUNCHEON  ADJOURNMENT)  REGISTRAR:  The matter of Delgamuukw verses Her Majest the  Queen at bar.  COURT:  Mr. Grant.  GRANT:  I just spoke with Mr. Plant briefly and I want to  raise a couple of housekeeping matters, my lord.  One is that I have the document book of Dora  Wilson-Kenni and I meant to deal with this at the  conclusion of her direct evidence.  But I would just  ask that tabs 11 and 12 which have not been proven,  and we don't intend to prove them, that they be  deleted or pulled out of the exhibit book.  I  presume you don't have your book here.  COURT:  That's all right.  What numbers, please?  GRANT:  This is the plaintiff's document book for Dora  Wilson-Kenni, tabs 11 and 12.  They are the records  of fish distributed.  COURT:  Tabs 11 and 12.  GRANT:  I would ask that they be withdrawn from that book.  COURT:  Thank you.  GRANT:  And similarly with respect to Art Mathews' document  book.  That is, of course, the plaintiff's not my  friends.  COURT:  Yes.  GRANT:  Tab 14, the first page was marked as Exhibit 350.  I  would ask that the balance of the documents be  pulled from that document book.  COURT:  Done.  PLANT:  If I could ask your lordship to keep them, there is  a chance I may be referring to them during my  examination.  COURT:  I will leave them where they are, but I have  divorced one from the other so that I can be --  GRANT:  I just wanted to be clear that the plaintiffs are  not tendering the balance of those documents as  exhibits .  COURT:  Thank you.  Mr. Plant.  42  43  44  45  46  47  A  Q  Mr. Mathews, could I ask you, please, to turn to  photographs marked seven and eight in tab 14 of my  book of documents.  Have you got them before you?  Yes.  Do you recognize what is shown in the photograph  marked number seven? 4804  1  A  2  Q  3  A  4  5  Q  6  A  7  Q  8  A  9  Q  10  A  11  Q  12  A  13  14  Q  15  16  A  17  Q  18  19  A  20  21  Q  22  23  A  24  Q  25  26  A  27  THE  COURT  28  29  MR.  GRANT  30  31  THE  COURT  32  A  33  MR.  PLANT  34  Q  35  36  37  A  38  Q  39  A  40  Q  41  A  42  Q  43  44  A  45  THE  COURT  46  A  47  MR.  PLANT  Yes.  Could you tell me what it is, please?  It appears to look like a maintenance yard, the  highway department maintenance yard.  Do you know where it is?  Yes.  Could you tell me, please, or tell the court?  It's in what we call the valley, Kitwanga Valley.  Is it close to the Village of Kitwanga?  Approximately two and a half miles away.  In which direction?  I don't know what you mean which direction?  North,  I guess, a little bit northeast, yes.  Do you recognize what is shown in the photograph  marked number eight?  Yes.  Could you tell the court what it is that you see in  that photograph, please?  It used to be a forest service station.  They have  now relocated in Hazelton, I think.  And what is the building used for today, to your  knowledge?  I don't know.  When you say the forest service, are you referring  to the Provincial Government forest service?  Yeah, we always known it as the forest service.  Well, it says right on it that it is the Ministry of  Health, isn't that what it says?  Yes, Ministry of Health, Provincial Ambulance  Services, Kitwanga.  You don't know what it is now?  No, I didn't know there was an ambulance in there.  And could you turn the page over to photograph 9,  please.  Do you recognize what is shown in that  photograph?  Yes.  And what is it, please?  It's a general store.  In Kitwanga?  Kitwanga Valley, up the valley away from us, yes.  And when you say "the valley", I understand you are  referring to north or northeast of the village?  Yes.  That is on the road to Kitwancool?  Yes. 4805  1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  12  13 MR.  14  15 THE  16 THE  17  18  19  2 0 MR.  21  22  23 THE  2 4 MR.  25  26  27  28  2 9 THE  3 0 MR.  31 THE  32  33 MR.  34 THE  35  36  37 THE  38 THE  39  4 0 THE  41 MR.  42 THE  4 3 MR.  44  45  46  47  Q    Do you recognize the building in photograph number  10?  A    Yes.  Q    What is it, please?  A    That is our local CSR building on the reserve.  Q    What is CSR.  A    I don't know what it is, it is a health service  center, anyway.  Q    That is a health center?  A    Yes.  Q    On the reserve, the Gitwingax reserve?  A    Yes.  PLANT:  My lord, I tender the ten photographs as one  exhibit.  COURT:  Yes, tab 14 will be the next exhibit.  REGISTRAR:  365, my lord.  (EXHIBIT 365: Ten Photographs in tab 14)  PLANT:  My lord, I forgot to do this earlier, but with  respect of the extract from the interrogatories at  tab 8 of my book of documents.  COURT:  Yes.  PLANT:  I intend, in due course, to go through the balance  of the extracts there.  And with that in mind, I  would ask that the material at tab 8 which comprises  extracts from Mr. Mathews' interrogatories  including -- well, perhaps without the maps.  COURT:  Yes.  PLANT:  Be marked as the next exhibit.  COURT:  Well, I think maybe just the question answer number  22 be the next exhibit.  PLANT:  Very well, my lord.  Could it be then --  COURT:  Well, the affidavit will be the next exhibit and  question 22 will be that number A.  The next exhibit  number, Madam Registrar?  REGISTRAR:  366.  COURT:  So the affidavit will be 366 and the question,  answer 22 will be 366A.  REGISTRAR:  Can I have the date of the affidavit, please?  PLANT:  Excuse me?  REGISTRAR:  The date of the affidavit.  PLANT:  February 11, 1987.  (EXHIBIT 366:  Affidavit dated February 11, 1987)  (EXHIBIT 366A: Interrogatory Question and Answer  22) 4806  1  2  MR.  PLANT  3  Q  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  A  11  Q  12  A  13  Q  14  15  A  16  Q  17  18  A  19  MR.  PLANT  20  21  MR.  GRANT  22  23  24  25  26  27  MR.  PLANT  28  29  30  31  32  MR.  GRANT  33  MR.  PLANT  34  THE  COURT  35  MR.  PLANT  36  MR.  GRANT  37  38  THE  COURT  39  40  41  MR.  GRANT  42  THE  COURT  43  44  MR.  GRANT  45  THE  COURT  46  47  MR.  GRANT  Now, Mr. Mathews, I have some questions about the  genealogy which is in your document book at tab 1  and it has been marked Exhibit 346.  And I place  that in front of you, Mr. Mathews.  On page 3, these  are almost, I suppose, housekeeping matters.  I want  to direct your attention to a part of page 3.  Do  you have that?  Yes.  Now, do you see your name there?  Yes.  The name to the right is Myrtle Mathews and that's  your wife?  Yes.  And as I understand your evidence, she is not a  member of your house?  No.  So to the extent that the genealogy shows that, that  should be corrected?  Well, my lord, I don't know what my friend is  referring to because on the exhibit she is shown as  his spouse unless my friend is suggesting that he  said that everybody on this chart was a member of  the house.  She is shown as the spouse on the  exhibit.  I apologize for that, my lord, I was referring to  the copy -- my copy of Exhibit 346 that was  delivered to me on March 3, 1988.  I quite agree  that the copy that has been marked as an exhibit is  different.  And is correct.  And is the correct one.  Correct by definition.  Beg your pardon?  It matches the witness' evidence that she is his  wife and not his sister.  And in one sense except by definition it wouldn't be  in the genealogy, but as a wife with this definition  she is correctly shown as wife.  Yes.  And therefore presumably not a part of the  genealogy.  Not a part of the house.  If you are taking the genealogy in the strictest  sense.  Yes. 4807  1 THE COURT:  Yes, all right.  2 MR.  PLANT  3  Q  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  A  11  Q  12  13  A  14  Q  15  16  A  17  Q  18  A  19 THE  COURT  20  A  21 THE  COURT  22  A  2 3 MR.  PLANT  24  Q  25  A  26  Q  27  28  A  29  Q  30  A  31  Q  32  A  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  Q  40  41  42  43  A  44  45  Q  46  47  A  Now, that's going to slow me down just a little bit,  my lord, because I have been working with a copy of  the genealogy that I received a couple of weeks ago.  Turning back to page one of the genealogy, Mr.  Mathews, on page 1 and 2 there are -- well, I guess  it is just -- it should be page two Elsie Morgan and  Tina Holland?  Yes.  Are the two people that were adopted -- well, two of  the people adopted by Gertie Brown into your house?  Yes.  Can you tell me which house Elsie Morgan was born  into?  No, I can't.  Do you know when that adoption took place?  It took place at a stone raising of Geoffrey Morgan.  Geoffrey Morgan died in 1985?  Yes.  So sometime after that?  Yes.  But when was his stone raising?  It was just last November, I think.  And at that time obviously Barb and Lloyd Morgan  were alive?  Yes.  Were they adopted at the same feast?  They were adopted at the funeral feast.  They were adopted before their mother?  I am getting mixed up here.  Yeah, they were adopted  at the same time, yes.  I thought you were talking  about the other Morgans.  We have so many Morgans.  It's a big family and, like I said, these new ones  came later and the other ones came after so they  have a great big family and some of them have been  adopted.  When you say "they have a great big family", are  these Morgans, and by "these" I mean Elsie and Barb  and Lloyd, are they related to your grandfathers  Geoffrey, Wallace and Jack?  They are the father-in-law.  Elsie Morgan's  father-in-law is Wallace Morgan.  And is Elsie, therefore, married to one of Wallace's  sons?  Yes, Richard Morgan. 1  Q  2  3  A  4  Q  5  6  7  A  8  Q  9  A  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  Q  18  19  A  20  Q  21  22  A  23  Q  24  25  A  26  Q  27  A  28  Q  29  30  A  31 MR.  PLANT  32 THE  TRANS  33  34  35 MR.  PLANT  4808  And I believe your evidence was that Elsie has other  children besides Barb and Lloyd?  Yes.  But at the same time that these three persons were  adopted, they were the only ones of that immediate  family that were adopted into your house?  Yes.  Is there a reason for that?  Yes, these adoptions come singular.  This type of  adoption, like I said, is to show respect of the  people.  You don't want to leave them standing at  the door.  Like if you go to your rest, your name  has to appear on what you call reservation list.  So  as our names when we get there we are seated right  away and if you don't have a name you stay back  until everybody is in.  Do Elsie, Barb and Lloyd all have names in the house  of Tenimgyet?  Yes.  Do Barb and -- well, I guess it would only be Barb,  would Barb have children?  Yes, she does.  And are those children members of the house of  Tenimgyet now?  Not yet.  Do they have to be individually adopted also?  Yes.  Is there a term in Gitksan for this kind of  adoption?  Yes, we call it Ts'ilimdoogam nidiit.  May I have the spelling for that, please?  rOR:  Ts'ilimdoogam nidiit,  T-s-apostrophe-i-1-i-m-d-o-o-g-underlined-a-m  n-i-d-i-i-t.  I-I-T?  36 THE TRANSLATOR:  Yes.  37 THE COURT:  M or N?  38 THE TRANSLATOR:  N.  3 9 THE COURT  4 0 MR. GRANT  41 THE COURT  M?  As in Nicholas.  And does that relate to the adoption of Barb and  42 Lloyd Morgan or does it relate also to the adoption  43 of Elsie and Tina?  44 A    Yes, it is the same principles applied there, yes.  4 5 MR. PLANT:  46 Q    Did Elsie -- was she raised in the village of  47 Kitwanga? 4809  1  A  2  3  Q  4  5  A  6  Q  7  8  9  A  10  Q  11  12  13  A  14  Q  15  A  16  17  Q  18  A  19  THE  COURT  20  A  21  22  THE  COURT  23  MR.  PLANT  24  Q  25  26  A  27  Q  28  A  29  30  Q  31  A  32  Q  33  34  A  35  Q  36  A  37  THE  COURT  38  MR.  PLANT  39  THE  TRANS  40  THE  COURT  41  A  42  MR.  GRANT  43  44  THE  COURT  45  46  47  MR.  PLANT  No, she wasn't, she just got married and came to  Kitwanga.  Is she a Gitksan or a person from -- is she a white  person or from some other Indian group?  T'a 'ootsip.  And as to Tina, do you know what her clan was?  I  may be making an assumption there, is she a Gitksan  person by birth?  No, she is a Wet'suwet'en from Houston.  And would I be correct, then, in assuming that she  was also adopted in order to have a seat in the  feast hall in Kitwanga?  Yes.  Is that where she lives now with her husband?  She lives in Kitwanga.  And if there are other  feasts in other villages, she sits on our table.  Have you ever been to a feast in Moricetown?  No, not yet.  :  You have never been to a feast in Moricetown?  No, not yet.  I just took this role as a simoogit  just recently.  :  Yes.  Now, moving on to page 3 again, it shows there that  you adopted Mabel Morgan, I think that's correct?  Yes.  When did that adoption take place?  That's the one I was referring to at that funeral  feast of Geoffrey.  At the funeral feast of Geoffrey?  Yes.  But Elsie, Barb and Lloyd were adopted at the  headstone feast?  Yes, if I remember correctly, yes.  Do you know what house or clan Mabel was born into?  No, I just know she is from Nishga'.  :  What was the word you used?  :  I would like a spelling for that, please.  LATOR:  Nishga, N-i-s-h-g-a-apostrophe.  :  And that means Nass, does it?  Yes, that's what I refer Nishga'.  :  I think he is referring to the people there, my  lord.  :  Oh, I thought he was saying that Nishga' as he  called it is the same thing as Nass, I gather it is  not.  :  Well, I would be happy to ask him. 4810  1 THE COURT:  Thank you.  2 MR. PLANT:  3 Q    When you say Nishga', are you referring to the  4 people of the Nass?  5 A    Yes, so as we are known as Gitksan, they are known  6 as Nishga'.  7 Q    And does the Nass River have a name itself?  Is  8 there a name for the river itself in Gitksan?  9 A    No, I always know it as the Nass, the Nishga' river.  10 Q    Now, when Mabel was adopted by you, was that the  11 same kind of adoption as for Elsie and Tina and the  12 others that we have spoken of?  13 A    Yes.  14 Q    And at the time that Mabel was adopted, her children  15 Colleen -- well, were here children adopted?  16 A    Yes.  17 Q    Which of the four children shown in the genealogy  18 were adopted?  19 A    These were separate.  This Colleen and Wallace were  2 0 adopted at the same time.  And then Gail at  the  21 stone raising.  And then just this last summer  22 Rhonda got adopted at a funeral of her baby.  And it  23 is not polite for us to have a feast with somebody  24 with no name, so naturally we were going to adopt  25 them anyway so we adopted her at the time of the  26 baby's feast.  27 Q    So that you could have a feast for the baby?  28 A    For the baby, that's right.  29 Q    Does this process of adoption that we've been  30 speaking of require the expenditure of money?  31 A    Yes.  32 Q    And who is it that has to put up the money, if  33 that's the correct way of putting it?  34 A    It is each individual that is getting adopted.  35 Q    The person who wants to be adopted puts up the  36 money?  37 A    Yes.  38 Q    And would I be correct in assuming that this is done  39 at a feast in order that the adoption would be  40 witnessed and validated by the other -- I guess the  41 people from the other clan the 'Nii dii?  42 A    Yes, you are quite right, you got that perfect.  43 Q    Now, let's move on, if I might, to page 4 of the  44 genealogy.  And I am not sure I follow your evidence  45 about the relationship of Henry, Horace and Vina to  46 yourself and perhaps I can start this way.  It says  47 here on the genealogy that Horace's birth date was 1  2  3  A  4  Q  5  A  6  Q  7  8  A  9  Q  10  A  11  12  Q  13  A  14  Q  15  A  16  Q  17  18  A  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  Q  27  A  28  Q  29  A  30  Q  31  32  33  34  A  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  Q  42  43  44  45  A  46  Q  47  A  4811  1909 and that would make him quite a bit older than  Henry?  Yes.  Is that correct?  Yes.  And, to your knowledge, are Henry and Horace and  Vina, are they brothers and sister?  Yes.  And were they born into the house of Kliiyemlaxha?  They were born in Gitwingax, in the Village of  Gitwingax.  They were born in Gitwingax?  Yes.  And do you know who their mother was?  Yes, Florence Tait.  And you have probably told us this, but in which  house was Florence Tait?  As far as I can remember in my lifetime, she has  always lived in Kitwanga.  As I say, I am speaking  on my lifetime here, and as long as I knew they  worked with us in our group, in our house.  And I  don't know if they've been adopted before that, but  as long as I knew they have names from our house  that signifies that they were in there a long time  ago.  Did you ever know Florence?  Yes.  She was probably quite old when you knew her?  Not that old.  Yes, she is about 60, past 60.  And I am still confused a little bit by this word  "adoption".  Have you ever witnessed a ceremony  where Henry, Horace and Vina were adopted into the  house?  No, there is two kinds of adoption, like I said.  And one is when you adopt a person and all the  children and this is done separately.  I mean when I  say "separately" it is not a feast of death or stone  raising, it is done individually concerning only the  adoption part.  But then there is an adoption feast  been done --  So there is -- apart from the kind of adoption that  we were talking about with Elsie and Tina, there is  another kind of adoption which requires its own  feast?  Yes.  And what is that kind of adoption?  That is what you call, in our terms, a legal 4812  1  2  3  THE  COURT  4  5  6  7  A  8  9  10  11  MR.  PLANT  12  13  THE  COURT  14  MR.  PLANT  15  Q  16  17  18  19  20  A  21  Q  22  23  A  24  Q  25  26  27  A  28  29  Q  30  A  31  32  33  Q  34  A  35  THE  COURT  36  A  37  38  THE  COURT  39  40  41  A  42  THE  COURT  43  MR.  PLANT  44  THE  COURT  45  46  MR.  PLANT  47  adoption where your side and your children following  you in that sense rather than the individual type.  Well, I am sorry, Mr. Plant, I am losing this  already.  What I have gathered from what you said  now that you need a feast for both those types of  adoptions, is that not correct?  Yes, the ones we bring in individually we can do it  on a funeral feast, a stone raising feast.  But this  type of legal adoption, you have a separate feast  dealing only with the adoption.  I am not sure if that clarifies your lordship's  concern, but maybe --  I think it does.  I am going to ask a question that will at least  determine whether or not I have some idea.  The kind  of adoption that we were talk speaking of for Elsie  and Tina, that's business that can be conducted at  another kind of feast?  Yes.  It is part of the business that you could conduct at  a funeral or a head stone feast?  Yes.  But if you want to perform this second kind of  adoption, you have to have a special feast just for  that?  Yes, which I am going to go in, my wife and family  is going to go in when we get home.  You are going to have the second kind of feast?  Yeah, the legal adoption part of it.  And then we  would -- they would have to, like you said, put in  money into Gwis gyen's house at the feast.  You also have to put in money for the --  For these ones, yes.  That would be for the other children of Mabel?  No, I am talking about my own family, your lordship,  Myrtle and my children.  Well, I'm sorry, the way I read this, and I may be  reading this wrong, is that the only child you and  your wife have is Mabel, is that not right?  Pardon?  Do you have other children?  No, Mabel is not one of the witness' children.  I thought she had been adopted as one of the  children of Mr. Mathews.  It may not be correct to even suggest that she was  adopted as a child and perhaps I should ask that 4813  1  2  THE  COURT  3  4  MR.  GRANT  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  THE  COURT  12  MR.  GRANT  13  THE  COURT  14  MR.  GRANT  15  THE  COURT  16  17  A  18  THE  COURT  19  20  A  21  MR.  GRANT  22  23  THE  COURT  24  25  A  26  THE  COURT  27  MR.  PLANT  28  29  THE  COURT  30  MR.  PLANT  31  Q  32  33  34  35  A  36  Q  37  38  39  A  40  Q  41  42  A  43  44  MR.  PLANT  45  THE  TRANS  46  47  MR.  PLANT  because I think it would be important to know.  Well, does this genealogy show this witness having  other children?  The genealogy does not show the witness having other  children, but the witness has given evidence that  his wife Myrtle and his children will be adopted by  Gwis gyen in another house.  It is thinking in the  matrilineal way because he is a male his children  are not shown on this genealogy because they are not  members of the house.  Yes, of course.  But he has given evidence that he has children.  But they are not shown on the genealogy?  But they are not shown on the genealogy.  Well, I take it that Colleen, Gail, Rhonda and  Wallace are the children of Mabel?  Yes.  :  And I have it noted from your evidence in chief that  Mabel was adopted by yourself and your wife?  Yes.  It comes down that line, yes.  :  But she was adopted by him into the house, not by  his wife.  :  Oh, I see.  So she is not adopted by you and your  wife, she has just been adopted into the house?  Yes.  :  Thank you.  :  Yes, my sense of the evidence is that we have been  talking about a Gitksan type of adoption.  :  Yes.  :  Rather than the conventional adoption.  Now, Mr. Mathews, just one other question arising  out of what you've just been saying.  Mabel's name  appears under your name because you were the person  who adopted her; is that correct?  That's right, yes.  Now, you've talked about something which you've  described as a legal adoption which is the second  type of adoption that requires a special feast?  Yes.  Can you tell me what the Gitksan term is for that  kind of adoption?  That kind of adoption you would call dim k'aphl wilp  to make part of the house.  :  May I have the spelling, please.  LATOR:  Dim k'aphl wilp, D-i-m, space,  k-underlined-apostrophe-a-p-h-1, space, w-i-l-p. 1  Q  2  3  4  5  A  6  Q  7  A  8  9  10  11  12  Q  13  14  15  16  A  17  18  19  20  Q  21  22  A  23  Q  24  25  A  26  27  28  Q  29  A  30  Q  31  32  33  A  34  35  36  Q  37  38  39  40  41  A  42  Q  43  44  A  45  Q  46  A  47  4814  Would I be correct in assuming that in this second  type of adoption the person who is adopted assumes  all of the full rights and privileges and  responsibilities of any other member of the house?  The second kind of adoption?  In the second kind, yes?  Each adoption -- each one requires permission.  Even  if your full right adoption is there, you have to  approach the chief of the house or anyone of the  four chiefs of that house and you would get  permission to get all of these rights, yes.  So even though you've been adopted in this legal  adoption that you have described, your rights are  somewhat different from the other members of the  house?  Yes.  The one I talked about individual and the one  that is a legal adoption has the right to obtain  seats if the house starts to deplete or taper off in  numbers.  Is Henry Tait an example of the application of that  principle?  That's right, yes.  Can you think of any other examples of the  application of that principle?  Not right off the top of my head, no.  This is the  house I am talking about here is that and her  mother, the mother I am speaking of Florence Tait.  You said her mother, you meant Henry Tait's mother?  Yes.  Now, I think you told us earlier that as far as you  can remember Henry and Horace and Vina have always  been considered members of the house?  Yes, they live right in the Village of Gitwingax.  And as long as I can remember, they sat on our  table.  They never sat anywhere else.  So your -- would I be correct in saying that, as you  understand it, Florence Tait may have been adopted  into the house as under this legal adoption and so  her children automatically become members of the  house?  Yes.  But you don't actually know whether or not Florence  Tait was adopted?  No.  That is not something that you ever witnessed?  No, not that part, no.  There are laws that I know  that they could have, that's why that appeared here 4815  1  2  3  4  5  6  Q  7  A  8  Q  9  A  10  Q  11  12  A  13  14  Q  15  16  17  A  18  19  20  Q  21  22  23  24  25  A  26  Q  27  A  28  29  30  31  32  Q  33  34  A  35 THE  COURT  3 6 MR.  PLANT  37  Q  38  39  40  A  41  Q  42  43  A  44  Q  45  46  47  and the role of Henry Tait in our group and nobody  has objected, no, don't do that, it has never been  done.  So, therefore, I know the fact that my  grandmother Florence was adopted legally in that  sense.  Does Vina have children?  Yes.  Oh, yes, Jimmy Tait is Vina's son?  Yes.  And Jimmy is automatically a member of the house  because Vina is?  Yes, you are getting it right on again, thanks very  much.  Is one of the reasons for this legal adoption, as  you call it, the desire to increase the membership  in the house when the house is growing smaller?  Yes.  Like I said about our house, it was very small  when the disease hit it and these adoptions took  place, yes.  Now, if I could just go back to page 2, although --  well, yes, let's go back to page 2.  And as I read  this, it appears that Sarah Morgan and Paul Wilson  were brother and sister, is that something that you  know?  That's what we are told, yes.  Did Paul Wilson ever hold the name Ax tii hiikw?  Yes, at sometime or another he did Bii Lax ha.  Paul  Wilson was known as Bii Lax ha.  As I have said  before, when this happens a person can hold two  names to uplift the chief's name.  So at one time he  did, yes.  Have I heard you correctly that he may have held  both names Ax tii hiikw and Bii Lax ha?  Yes, that's quite common.  Who is that, Mr. Plant, Paul Wilson?  Now, on page 3 up in the upper left-hand part there  is a triangle and it says Ax tii hiikw died 1895, do  you see that?  Yes.  Do you know if Paul Wilson held the name Ax tii  hiikw after the individual who's identified there?  That has gone too far back, no, I don't know.  Do you know if Paul Wilson held the name Ax tii  hiikw before -- well, before I ask you that, let me  move down a rung.  As I have it here, Geoffrey held  the name Ax tii hiikw at the time of his death, 4816  1  2  A  3  Q  4  A  5  Q  6  7  A  8  Q  9  10  A  11  12  Q  13  14  A  15  Q  16  A  17  Q  18  19  A  20  21  22  23  Q  24  25  A  26  Q  27  A  28  Q  29  A  30  Q  31  32  A  33  Q  34  35  36  A  37  Q  38  A  3 9 MR.  GRANT  40  41  42  4 3 MR.  PLANT  44  45 THE  COURT  4 6 MR.  PLANT  47  Q  Geoffrey Morgan that is?  Yes.  And before him Wallace Morgan?  Yes.  And at some point before him did Charlie Derrick  hold the name Ax tii hiikw?  Yes.  Was that before or after the period of Charles Smith  taking over?  It was during the same period of time, yes,  overlapped like.  Would Paul Wilson have held the name Ax tii hiikw  before Charlie Derrick then, so far as you know?  No, I don't know that.  You don't know when Paul Wilson held the name?  No, I don't.  Who was it who told you that Paul Wilson had held  the name Ax tii hiikw?  It was my late grandfather Geoffrey that suggested  that -- not suggested, told me that at one time they  held both names, but I didn't know which date that  took place.  Now, at the time when this lawsuit was commenced,  Geoffrey Morgan held the name Ax tii hiikw?  Yes.  And you held the name Tenimgyet?  No.  We are talking about October 1984?  1984, Geoffrey was -- yes, I did, yeah.  Would you have said then that Tenimgyet was a name,  a chief's name in the house of Ax tii hiikw?  It was the same both, like I already noted.  As far as you are concerned today, then, the same  boat, to use your phrase, means that Ax tii hiikw  and Tenimgyet are chiefs in the same house?  Yes.  And it is one house?  Yes.  My friend referred to -- may have misconstrued the  answer.  I think he said it was both, b-o-t-h, not  boat, b-o-a-t, which I think my friend may have  implied in his next question.  I would have said that was a failure to hear rather  than a misconstruction.  All right.  I don't think that detracts from the evidence, but I 4817  1  2  3  4  A  5  THE  COURT  6  A  7  THE  COURT  8  A  9  10  THE  COURT  11  MR.  PLANT  12  Q  13  14  15  A  16  17  18  19  20  21  Q  22  23  A  24  25  Q  26  27  A  28  Q  29  30  31  32  A  33  Q  34  35  36  A  37  Q  38  A  39  Q  40  41  42  43  44  45  THE  COURT  46  MR.  PLANT  47  THE  COURT  had better have another go at it.  As far as you are  concerned today, Mr. Mathews, Ax tii hiikw and  Tenimgyet are both chiefs in the same house?  Yes.  And the house is what?  The house of Tenimgyet and Ax tii hiikw.  So you could call it either?  Either one, yes.  If Axtii hiikw was here he would  be using Ax tii hiikw.  All right.  Is it as simple as that, you would call it the house  of Tenimgyet and if Ax tii hiikw were here he would  probably call it the house of Ax tii hiikw?  Simply because we are considered as one and we split  that seat, like I said.  And we put up a feast and  this is accepted, it is accepted.  It is the same as  one person using two names, here we are using one  seat and putting up Ax tii hiikw and Tenimgyet as  one.  But as I understand it, Bii Lax ha and 'Wii Hloots'  are in a slightly different position?  Yes, they are in the third and fourth seat.  Second,  third seat down, yes.  They are included in the people that you call the  head chiefs of your house?  Yes.  But they would never say, for instance, whoever it  is that holds the name 'Wii Hloots', and I am afraid  I can't remember right now, but he would never say  that he was chief of the house 'Wii Hloots'?  No, not now.  Now, was there a time after Geoffrey Morgan's death  that you decided that Henry Tait could represent you  in this court case?  There was a time, yes.  And then that changed --  Yes.  -- afterwards.  Now, I would like to refer you to  tab 3 of my book of documents.  I am finished with  the genealogy for now.  Now, this is the first  couple of pages of the Writ of Summons which is a  document that was filed in this case, it is an  amended --  Tab 3?  Tab 3, my lord.  Yes. 4818  1 MR.  PLANT  2  Q  3  4  5  6 MR.  GRANT  7 MR.  PLANT  8  Q  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  A  22  23  Q  24  25  26  27  A  28  Q  29  30  31  A  32  33  34  35  36  37  Q  38  A  39  Q  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  It is one of the amended Writ of Summons and it is  dated September 10, 1986.  And in the 6th paragraph  it says:  "Ax tii hiikw, also known as Henry  Tait..." —  It is the style of cause.  Yes, the style of cause. The 6th name in the style  of cause, they are set out in different paragraphs.  I will read it again.  "Ax tii hiikw, also known as Henry Tait,  suing on his own behalf and on behalf of  all the members of the houses of Axtii  Hiikw and Tenimgyet."  Now, as I understand your evidence to me at this  point, that's not a correct description of the  relationship between Ax tii hiikw and Tenimgyet, is  it?  In what way are you talking here?  I couldn't get  you?  Well, as I read it, it is the suggestion that there  are two houses, one house is Ax tii hiikw and the  other is Tenimgyet.  And as I understand your  evidence, it is really just one house?  That is one house, yes.  And it was sometime after this document in September  10, 1986, where you, if I could put it this way,  took over the position of high chief in the house?  Not took over the high chief, but the house that it  was decided that I would appear because Ax tii hiikw  couldn't do it.  When I say Ax tii hiikw couldn't do  it, at the time that this was written up it was at  that time cramped, when I say "cramped" at the time  he was fishing, yes.  Fishing?  Yes.  Well, let me show you tab 5.  There was another  change made to what Mr. Grant has accurately called  the style of cause.  And at tab 5 is an extract from  the Writ of Summons that was filed on the 28th of  October, 1986 in this proceeding.  And there you see  at the bottom of the first page it says:  "Tenimgyet, also known as Arthur Mathew  Jr., suing on his own behalf and on behalf 4819  1  2  3  A  4  Q  5  6  A  7  Q  8  A  9  MR.  GRANT  10  11  THE  COURT  12  MR.  GRANT  13  MR.  PLANT  14  Q  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  A  22  Q  23  24  25  26  A  27  Q  28  A  29  Q  30  31  32  A  33  somebody  34  35  36  37  38  39  Q  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  A  47  of all the members of Tenimgyet."  Yes.  And that's the capacity in which you appear here  today?  Yes.  And that includes representation of Ax tii hiikw?  Yes.  That's the present status of the pleadings, my  lord --  Yes, thank you.  -- with respect to that paragraph.  There is one matter that I meant to raise with you a  few minutes ago.  You told us in your evidence about  a meeting that occurred, I think it may have been  after Geoffrey Morgan had passed away to decide  certain things about the taking of the name and it  was a meeting where George Turner and your father  were there?  Yes.  And part of the -- well, let me put it this way.  It  was significant to you that George Turner who comes  from another clan and your father who comes from yet  another clan --  Yes.  -- were at that meeting?  Yes.  But both George Turner and your father are married  to people in the house of Tenimgyet; is that  correct?  Yes, they were there as a father, as advisors.  Not  to say that they are going to pull over  else, they are there and say:  This is right.  You  guys are doing right and this is the way to go.  And  then after that meeting then we went to the feast  hall with this and the meeting and that's how we  presented it to the feast.  Would it be fair to say that one of the things that  you were considering when you were having these  discussions about the changing -- I guess the  changes that occurred after Geoffrey Morgan passed  away, that one of the concerns of the members of the  house was that the house needed a strong chief for  the land claims for this case?  That might have been a consideration, yes, but that  is not to mean to put my uncle down.  He can speak 1  2  Q  3  A  4  Q  5  6  7  8  9  A  10  Q  11  A  12  Q  13  14  A  15  Q  16  A  17  Q  18  19  A  20  21  22  23  24  Q  25  26  27  A  28  29  30  Q  31  A  32  Q  33  34  A  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  Q  45  46  47  A  4820  for himself just as well as I can.  And by uncle you mean Henry?  Henry Tait, Ax tii hiikw.  Now, you told us that the change or transition from  the house where Ax tii hiikw, Geoffrey Morgan, was  the head to the house where, as I understand it now,  you and Henry are the head chiefs are some division  of responsibilities --  Yes.  -- that that was in accordance with Gitksan law?  Yes.  Is that a law of your house or a law of Gitksan  generally?  Generally, yes, that's the law.  Could you state the law?  What law, the splitting?  Well, the law that you say justifies this -- yes,  the splitting.  Yes, it is common.  Like I said, you could see down  the genealogy when I said one of them had two names.  Here we are doing the other way around that we split  the seat and Henry is in charge of the feast and I  was left in charge of the territory.  The law is that these things are done from time to  time.  What more is there to the law other than the  fact that these things have been done?  I cannot add on that to accomodate my needs.  No, it  just says that's what we have done and that's how we  did it.  Who was it that taught you this law?  My grandfather Geoffrey.  And how is your own house, are you aware of any  examples of the application of this law?  I can't speak for anybody else.  I can't use anybody  else for an example except for my own house.  And  the reasoning for that is that their very own house  belongs to that house and their laws in that house  belongs to that house, whatever house it will be.  And I can't say or make assumption what they are  doing.  So I cannot say, I can only make examples of  my house.  But I could make suggestions in the other  houses, but that doesn't mean I have to use them for  an example.  Well, I am concerned about your statement earlier  that the law that we spoke of was a law of the  Gitksan people generally.  Mh'm. 4821  MR.  1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8 THE  9  10 THE  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24 THE  25 THE  2 6 MR.  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  Q    Do you know of other examples of this -- the  application of this law having taken place in other  houses?  A    Not offhand, no.  PLANT:  My lord, I am going to change the subject and I  wonder if it would be convenient to take the  afternoon adjournment.  COURT:  I may be a little longer today because it is Friday.  I will be back as quickly as I can.  REGISTRAR:  Order in court, court will recess.  (PROCEEDINGS ADJOURNED PURSUANT TO AFTERNOON RECESS AT 3:00)  I hereby certify the foregoing to  be true and accurate to the best  of my skill and ability.  LISA REID, OFFICIAL REPORTER  UNITED REPORTING SERVICE LTD.  Xh2  A. Mathews (for Plaintiffs)  (PROCEEDINGS RESUMED PURSUANT TO AN ADJOURNMENT AT  3:17 P.M.)  REGISTRAR:  Order in court.  Ready to proceed, my lord.  COURT:  Thank you.  Mr. Plant?  PLANT:  Q    Thank you, my lord.  I want to move on to a  different subject now, Mr. Mathews.  In about April  1971, going back some years now, there was a band  council election in Kitwanga.  That was the -- well,  first of all, do you recall that?  A    Yes.  Q    And was that the first time that you ran for band  councillor?  A    Yes, it might have been, yes.  Q    Whether or not it was the first time you ran, it was  the first time that you were elected?  A    Yes.  Q    Joe Daniels was the chief -- candidate for the chief  councillor in that election?  A    I think so, yes.  Q    Is Joe Daniels related to George?  A    George Daniels?  Q    Yes?  A    Yes.  Q    How are they related?  A    Brother. 4822  1  Q  2  A  3  Q  4  A  5  THE  COURT:  6  THE  WITNESS  7  8  THE  COURT:  9  MR.  PLANT:  10  Q  11  12  13  A  14  15  16  17  18  Q  19  A  20  MR.  PLANT:  21  THE  COURT:  22  MR.  PLANT:  23  THE  SPELLER  24  THE  COURT:  25  26  THE  WITNESS  27  28  THE  COURT:  29  THE  WITNESS  30  MR.  PLANT:  31  Q  32  A  33  THE  COURT:  34  MR.  PLANT:  35  Q  36  A  37  Q  38  39  A  40  Q  41  42  A  43  44  Q  45  A  46  Q  47  A  What clan would Joe Daniels be in?  In the Fireweed, Gisk'aast.  Do you know what house it comes from?  From the house of Guxsan, Ts'aa'uulst.  I didn't hear what the witness said after Guxsan.  :  Ts'aa'uulst.  I think we brought that up yesterday  too.  They are from the same house.  I don't recall the name.  I don't recall that word at the moment.  Is that --  what is the meaning of the word that you have just  used?  Ts'aa'uulst, name.  That's a name from the house of  Guxsan.  Ts'aa'uulst, like we do in the house with  the three other -- four people in there, and  Ts'aa'uulst means claiming or taking.  That's the  meaning of the name.  Is it a chief's name in the house?  Yes.  And is it a name --  Can we have the spelling of it, please?  I am sorry, yes.  :  T-s-'-a-a-'-u-u-l-s-t.  And that's -- that was -- is that Joe Daniels'  chiefly name?  :  No.  It -- he comes from that house.  He asked me  which house they came from.  I thought it was the house of Guxsan?  :  Guxsan and Ts'aa'uulst, I used two names.  Ts'aa'uulst is another name for the house of Guxsan?  Another chief in that house.  Well, I am sorry, I don't understand that.  I still don't either, my lord.  Well, Guxsan, the house of Guxsan.  And is Ts'aa'uulst a chief's name in the house of  Guxsan?  Yes.  Who holds the name?  Is that Joe Daniels who has  that name?  No, Ts'aa'uulst, it holds by the name of Milton -- I  forgot his first name.  George Milton?  No.  David, isn't it?  First names are not Indians names. 4823  1  Q  2  3  4  A  5  Q  6  7  8  A  9  THE  COURT:  10  11  12  13  MR.  PLANT:  14  Q  15  16  A  17  Q  18  A  19  Q  20  A  21  THE  COURT:  22  23  THE  WITNESS  24  THE  COURT:  25  THE  WITNESS  26  THE  COURT:  27  MR.  GRANT:  28  THE  COURT:  29  30  31  MR.  PLANT:  32  THE  COURT:  33  34  MR.  PLANT:  35  Q  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  A  44  Q  45  46  A  47  Well, perhaps I should ask you this:  Am I correct  in assuming that you sometimes refer to the house of  Guxsan as Ts'aa'uulst?  Yes.  And in your mind is that -- is that another name for  the house or is it simply a name of a chief in the  house that you associate with that house?  Yes.  The name of the chief in that house, yes.  Well, I am sorry, Mr. Mathews, but I asked you and  Mr. Plant asked you if that was the name of the  chief in the house and you said no.  Now I think you  are saying yes.  A chief in the house is how I heard it, my lord.  Is  there a chief in the house whose name is Guxsan?  The head chief of that house is Guxsan.  And is Ts'aa'uulst another chief in the house?  Yes.  He is another chief from that same house.  In the same house?  Yes.  Are you saying that the head chief of the house of  Ts'aa'uulst is Guxsan?  :  Yes.  Not the other way around?  :  No.  All right.  Guxsan is also a named plaintiff, my lord.  Well, that's what's troubling me because there is  something -- there is a link in this chain missing  somewhere.  Well, I think I have it but maybe I'll try this.  Well, I think I have it too, but I am guessing  unless you are too.  I am probably guessing, too.  And it is probably our  fault for not asking or my fault for not asking the  questions that would clarify this.  When I asked you  about George Daniels, you said his clan was Fireweed  and then I asked you what his house was and that's  when you said Ts'aa'uulst, and I think we have also  established that the house that you were referring  to there is known as Guxsan?  Yes.  And in your mind are those two names, Guxsan and  Ts'aa'uulst, interchangeable?  No, they are -- it is the same house.  Like I said  and maybe I am not explained it properly, like if 1  2  3  4  5  6  Q  7  8  A  9  THE  COURT:  10  11  THE  WITNESS  12  THE  COURT  13  MR.  PLANT  14  THE  COURT  15  MR.  PLANT  16  THE  COURT  17  18  THE  WITNESS  19  THE  COURT:  20  THE  WITNESS  21  22  23  MR.  PLANT:  24  Q  25  A  26  Q  27  28  A  29  Q  30  A  31  Q  32  33  A  34  Q  35  A  36  Q  37  38  39  40  41  A  42  Q  43  44  45  46  A  47  Q  4824  you -- the house of Guxsan and Ts'aa'uulst, they are  all in that house.  That's all I am saying there.  And that maybe got that mixed up.  That what I am  trying to say is they are from the same house but I  just mentioned two chiefs named from the same house.  And in that house the head chief is the person who  holds the name Guxsan?  Yes.  And Ts'aa'uulst could be a different person also a  chief but not the head chief?  :  Yes.  All right, thank you.  Now, back to George Daniels.  Is Mr. Daniels --  I am sorry, one more question.  Yes.  What is the name of the house of which these two  gentlemen are chiefs?  :  Guxsan, the Guxsan House.  All right, thank you.  :  I hope we are talking about the same George  Daniels.  I am thinking there is two George Daniels,  senior and junior.  Well, I was actually more interested in Joe Daniels?  Yes, okay.  And let me be sure that I have this.  Joe Daniels is  also a Fireweed?  Yes.  From this house that we now call Guxsan's house --  Yes.  -- do the Daniels' family have a store on the  reserve in Kitwanga?  Yes.  Is that Joe that has that store?  Yes.  Now, after the election in April 1971 that I asked  you about a minute ago, did Stanley Williams file an  appeal from the result of that election?  Did he  challenge the result of that election and put it in  writing?  I couldn't recall.  He might have.  Let me see if I can summarize my understanding of  what happened and ask if you agree.  There were two  or three elections that came quite soon one after  the other?  Yes.  And the result of that was at the end that you were 4825  1 elected to the band council and Joe Daniels was  2 elected chief councillor?  3 A    Yes.  4 Q    Now, I'd like to show you or ask you to look at the  5 document at tab 10 in my book of documents, Mr.  6 Mathews.  Now, this is as good a photocopy that I  7 could get of this document which came from the  8 Attorney General of Canada's document list and at  9 the top is typed My Future Programme, and have you  10 seen -- do you recall seeing this document at the  11 time of the band council elections in the early  12 1970's?  13 A    Yes, they look like the campaign.  I might have,  14 yes, I just couldn't recall.  15 Q    You are not sure?  16 A    Not sure, yes.  17 Q    It might have been Joe Daniels' campaign leaflet if  18 I can use that term, campaign statement?  19 A    Might have been, yes.  20 Q    I want to go through the nine items here and perhaps  21 I could do it this way:  Could I ask you, Mr.  22 Mathews, to read the nine items there and confirm  23 for me that the matters which Mr. Daniels or the  24 author of this document was referring to or is  25 referring to here were issues in the band council  26 election in 1971?  27 A    Yes, if this was his -- that was his campaign  2 8 programme.  29 Q    And were these matters that are listed items 1 to 9,  30 were they matters of concern in that election?  31 A    This was Joe's concern, yes.  32 Q    These were his concerns?  33 A    Yes.  34 Q    I think we have already established that Mr.  35 Daniels, Joe Daniels was elected chief?  36 A    Yes.  37 MR. PLANT:  I'd ask that this document be marked, my lord, and  38 by this document I mean only again the first page --  39 the first document at the tab.  In fact there has  40 been an abundance of enthusiasm on the part of the  41 photocopiers here.  42 THE REGISTRAR:  Is there a date on it?  43 MR. PLANT:  Yes.  The document's entitled My Future Programme  44 and it has the name in the lower left-hand corner  45 Joe R. Daniels and the date, April 2, 1971.  46 THE REGISTRAR:  Thank you.  47 MR. PLANT:  I don't require the other documents at that tab and 4826  1  2  3  4  THE  COURT  5  MR.  GRANT  6  7  8  9  10  THE  COURT  11  12  MR.  GRANT  13  THE  COURT  14  MR.PLANT:  15  THE  COURT  16  MR.  GRANT  17  THE  COURT  18  19  20  MR.  GRANT  21  22  23  THE  COURT  24  25  26  THE  REGIS  27  28  29  30  31  MR.  PLANT  32  Q  33  34  35  A  36  Q  37  A  38  Q  39  40  A  41  42  43  THE  COURT  44  MR.  PLANT  45  Q  46  47  perhaps I could ask your lordship to remove them now  because they aren't going to form a part of any  questions that I have.  All right.  Mr. Grant?  The witness said he is not sure if he had seen this  document before.  He said that it was a campaign  programme.  I just -- I don't -- I am not going to  oppose strenuously to this document going in.  I  think the weight of it is marginal.  You can argue that.  He said this was his campaign  programme.  That this was --  This was Mr. —  He said this was his campaign programme.  He said it was his campaign programme.  Yes.  All right.  Madam Registrar, give these to Mr.  Plant, the remainder of the tab that is not being  marked.  As these came out of one file and I haven't had an  opportunity to review them, I may wish to refer to  these other documents.  Mr. Plant is dominus litis of his book at the moment  so he asked me to take things out, I have taken them  out.  Exhibit number?  M:  Exhibit 367, tab 10.  (EX. 3 67 TAB 10  DOCUMENT -  DATED APR.  MY FUTURE PROGRAMME  2, 1971)  Now, Mr. Mathews, one of the things that's taken  place in Kitwanga since 1971 is that the name of the  reserve has changed; is that correct?  From?  Kitwanga to Gitwingax?  Yeah, Gitwingax is the right name for it.  Do you recall that change of name having taken  place?  No, but I remember people were concerned.  We call  it Kitwanga and they objected to it and then they  said okay, we will put Gitwingax.  When was that?  I am afraid I don't know and the witness has already  indicated he doesn't know.  That's not an item on  the agenda in Exhibit 367. 4827  A  PLANT:  GRANT:  1  2  3  4  5  6  7 MR.  8  9  10  11 MR.  12  13  14  15  16  17 THE  18  19 MR.  2 0 THE  21  22  23  2 4 MR.  25 THE  26  2 7 MR. GRANT:  28  2 9 THE  COURT:  GRANT:  COURT:  GRANT:  COURT:  3 0 MR.  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  COURT:  PLANT:  Q  A  Q  Now, I have some more questions about activities  on and off the reserve, Mr. Mathews.  From 1964 to  1967, or thereabouts, as I understand it, cedar  poles were cut on the reserve and there was some  harvesting by band members of pulpwood?  Pulpwood?  What pulpwood are we talking about?  Well, you won't get any assistance from the other  documents at tab 10 of my document book, Mr.  Mathews, because I have truly changed the subject  quite dramatically.  Just a second, my lord.  The witness was just as a  reaction just turning pages.  I don't think the  witness was trying to look at documents to answer  the question.  I was watching the witness at the  time, he was just flipping through the pages which  he's done during the course of his examination.  Well, Mr. Grant, I don't think Mr. Plant was making  any such suggestion.  Okay.  That's fine if he wasn't.  I think he was looking for something and Mr. Plant  told him he wouldn't find it in the documents in tab  10.  I didn't think there was any suggestion of  impropriety of any kind.  Fine, my lord, if there wasn't.  No need for heat at this stage of the week.  Go  ahead.  Maybe I am just anxious.  It is Friday afternoon, my  lord.  Put the question again, Mr. Plant.  Yes.  I'd like you to direct your mind back just for  a moment, Mr. Mathews, to a period over 20 years  ago, to about 1964 to 1967, and my understanding is  that there was some logging done on the Kitwanga  Reserve in those days in those years for basically  two types of things, cedar poles and pulpwood, which  would be wood for trees chopped to be sent off  for -- trees cut down to be sent off for pulp  activity, paper making?  Yes.  I don't recall the pulp, but I recall the  cedar poles.  Now, moving ahead about ten years if I can, I am  further told that -- instructed that there was more  logging done on the reserve in 1977 which would be  about the time -- around about the time that you  ceased to be a band councillor.  Do you recall the  logging being done on the reserve in about that 1  2  A  3  Q  4  5  6  7  A  8  9  10  11  Q  12  A  13  Q  14  15  16  17  18  19  A  20  21  22  23  Q  24  A  25  26  27  Q  28  29  30  31  A  32  Q  33  34  A  35  Q  36  37  38  A  39  40  41  Q  42  43  44  A  45  Q  46  47  A  4828  time?  No, I don't.  I am further instructed that in October 1977, the  Kitwanga Indian Band applied for a fire permit to  burn some logging slash on the reserve.  Do you have  any knowledge of that or recollection of that?  Not -- not outright, no.  I don't know where this  area is.  Maybe if I knew where it was, maybe I'd  recall it but I don't recall this, the time that --  what year was it you said it was?  1977?  '77, that could have very well be, I don't know.  I want to test your recollection a little bit  further even though I appreciate it was over ten  years ago.  I am told that in the year 1976, the  Kitwanga Band Council tendered for a timber sale at  a place called Kitwanga Five Mile Hill.  Do you  remember that having taken place?  Not really.  If this was taught to being hammered in  me, I would have remembered but these events that  this took -- occurred and just few months or weeks,  I don't know.  They might have.  You know where Kitwanga Five Mile Hill is?  We have various hills but I don't know where five  mile name.  It might be an enigmous name that I  can't recall where it is, no.  Well, my understanding is that Kitwanga Five Mile  Hill is located about five miles east of Kitwanga on  the road that you called the back road, the road to  Hazelton and the road goes --  To Hazelton?  To Hazelton, and some miles east of Kitwanga it  passes a place which --  Yes.  -- is known locally at least to some people at least  as Five Mile Hill.  Does that assist your  recollection?  Yes.  I remember now the logging road going on  there, yes, if that -- we are on the same  wavelength, yeah.  Can you confirm for me that there was logging in  that location done about 11 years ago or thereabouts  by the Kitwanga Band?  Yes.  That was pursuant to a timber sale licence which the  band obtained?  They might have, yes.  They might have obtained a 4829  1  2 THE  COURT  3 MR.  PLANT  4  Q  5  6  A  7  8  Q  9  10  11  A  12  Q  13  A  14  Q  15  A  16  17  Q  18  19  A  20  21  Q  22  A  23  Q  24  25  26  27  A  28  29  Q  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  A  37  Q  38  39  40  41  A  42  Q  43  44  A  45  Q  46  47  licence, yes.  This would be off the reserve, would it?  I am going to ask that.  This place that I have  referred to is not located on the reserve, is it?  If it is five miles away, it must be off the  reserve, yes.  The logging that I have been talking about that's  done in this area, that was clear-cut logging, was  it not?  I don't know.  Have you ever driven on that road?  Yes.  You know --  There are several contractors along that road so to  distinguish which one it is, I wouldn't know.  You were on the band council at the time that the  tender was made for this timber sale licence?  If I was, like I say, we got different roles to play  in the council and we might have agreed to it, yes.  You agreed to it?  I said yes, if we -- in that council, yes.  Well, I am not sure I understand what you mean by  different roles to play.  Does that mean that you  don't pay any attention to band council business  that doesn't concern your particular role?  I am -- yes, I am quite concerned of what's  happening, yes.  Well, let me see if I can assist your recollection  further in respect of this matter.  I understand  that after the band -- after the logging of this  timber sale licence was completed by the band there  were some problems with clean up of the site which  took a while to sort out.  Does that assist your  recollection?  Yes.  And one of the problems was that the timber sale  licence has some terms in it about how the site has  to be left clean and if you don't comply with those  terms, you don't get your deposit back?  Yes.  That's usually what happens, yes.  In this case, those terms were complied with a few  years later and the band did get its money back?  Yes.  Now, at or about this same time, that is to say  1977, there was a company incorporated called  Kitwanga Native Development Incorporated? 4830  1  A  2  Q  3  4  A  5  6  Q  7  8  A  9 MR.  GRANT  10 MR.  PLANT  11  Q  12  13  14  15  A  16  Q  17  18  A  19  Q  20  21  A  22  23  24  Q  25  26  A  27  Q  28  A  29  Q  30  31  A  32  Q  33  34  35  36  37  A  38  Q  39  40  41  A  42  Q  43  A  44  Q  45  46  47  Yes, around that time.  I heard the name, yes.  Well, in fact you were one of the first directors of  that company, weren't you?  Yes, but it took place in between, yes.  I didn't  stay on long.  No.  I was going to say as I understand it, you were  only a director for the first year?  Yes.  Which company was this?  Kitwanga Native Development Incorporated.  And this  may be a wholly inaccurate assumption.  Were you a  director of that company because you were a band  council member?  Not really.  So you had an independent involvement with that  company?  Partly, yes.  The company was -- I am sorry, I don't mean to  interrupt you.  Like I said, I didn't stay there long.  We might  have had a couple of meetings, that's all, and then  I was -- my term was over.  This company was incorporated by people from  Kitwanga?  Yes.  And speaking of Gitksan people?  Yes.  I'd like you to turn now if you will to tab 6 of my  book of documents.  You have that in front of you?  Yes.  There are five pages at this tab, my lord, and I am  particularly interested in the first three, purport  to be a letter from Richard Morgan, chief councillor  of the Kitwanga band dated May 31, 1977.  Would you  review that letter please, Mr. Mathews?  Yeah.  Now, May 1977, well, let me ask you this first.  Were you a member of the band council in May 1977  when Richard Morgan was chief councillor?  Yes.  I worked with Richard, yes.  Was this letter sent by the band council?  I think so, yes.  And would you agree with me that it was the desire  of the Kitwanga band in 1977 to actively promote  itself and its involvement in the logging industry  in British Columbia? 4831  1  A  2  3  4  Q  5  6  A  7  MR.  PLANT  8  9  10  11  12  THE  COURT  13  THE  REGIS1  14  THE  COURT  15  16  MR.  PLANT  17  THE  COURT  18  19  THE  REGIS1  20  THE  COURT  21  22  23  MR.  PLANT  24  THE  COURT  25  26  MR.  PLANT  27  THE  COURT  28  29  30  31  32  MR.  GRANT  33  MR.  PLANT  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  THE  COURT  42  MR.  PLANT  43  44  45  46  THE  COURT  47  Yes.  At the time of this particular letter, we had  a high unemployment, lot of people were unemployed,  so we had to try and deal with the situation, yes.  This was one way you tried to deal with that  situation?  Yes.  I'd ask that the three-page letter be marked as the  next exhibit, my lord, and, once again, I am forced  to tell you that I don't have any interest in the  second part of the document of the two pages that  follow the letter.  All right.  Do you want me to take it out?  \R:  Exhibit 368, my lord.  You are talking about the financial statements that  are referred to in the letter?  Yes.  All right.  I will hand them to you if you wish.  That will be Exhibit 368.  \R:  368, my lord.  Well, I wonder if, Mr. Plant, if it should be taken  out.  The letter on page 2, paragraph 2, refers to  those documents as being appended.  Oh, in that case, my lord --  I think they should remain in and part of the  exhibit.  I would be happy --  Yes, I think they should be part of the exhibit.  (EXHIBIT 368 - LETTER MAY 31, 1977 FROM RICHARD  MORGAN & FINANCIAL STATEMENT)  Well, my lord --  Before my friend gets to his feet I do have one  other comment to make in relation to this arising  out of your lordship's observation and that is that  when I was reviewing this document this morning, I  had not observed the point that your lordship has  brought out but what I had observed was that it --  near the bottom of page 2, there is a reference to  the attached report of a Mr. Collingwood.  Yes.  And I have not had occasion today to go back to my  file from whence this came to see if in that file  there is such a report attached and I will do that  over the weekend.  Yes, all right.  Well, I don't really want to rule  on Mr. Collingwood's report because I haven't seen 4832  1  2  3  4  5  MR.  GRANT  6  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  THE  COURT  16  MR.  GRANT  17  18  19  20  21  THE  COURT  22  MR.  GRANT  23  24  25  26  MR.  PLANT  27  28  THE  COURT  29  30  31  32  33  MR.  PLANT  34  THE  COURT  35  36  MR.  PLANT  37  Q  38  39  40  41  A  42  Q  43  44  45  A  46  47  Q  it, but I have seen the statement and it is said to  be appended which I suppose is the same as attached  but I will leave it to your friend to let you know  if he wants the other document included as well.  Well, I would like an opportunity to look at the  other document but, my lord, I note there is some  handwritten notations on the statement which I am  not in a position to be able to determine in any way  whether or not these handwritten notations are what  they are and I comment on the issue regarding the  by-law where the exhibit to the by-law the --  exhibit to the affidavit that was tendered earlier  this afternoon was excluded and I don't know if  it —  Well, I am --  -- it makes a great deal of difference but the  points my friend wishes to make appear to be points  arising out of the letter.  I don't know if this  witness knows or has seen the profit or loss  statement.  He says this letter was sent on behalf of the band.  No, and I didn't object to the letter, my lord.  I  just would just think that it may be unnecessary to  put this profit and loss statement in and my friend  seems to think the same thing and --  Well, I said that, my lord, without having in mind  your lordship's observation.  I think it should be included.  It is here and I say  it should be included.  As to the notation, I am  going to assume it was made by your recipient and I  am not going to pay any attention to it.  I take it  this came from your files, Mr. Plant?  Yes.  This came from our documents.  I will pay no attention to the notation.  It relates  to an item of $905 for stumpage.  Mr. Mathews, one of the reasons that the company  Kitwanga Native Development Incorporated was  incorporated was to enable people of Kitwanga to  pursue business opportunities including logging?  Yes.  Were there other business activities which were part  of the, shall I say, the object in creating this  company?  In what way are you speaking of?  To promote this  company?  Well, were there other businesses that -- other 4833  1  2  3  4  A  5  6  Q  7  8  A  9  Q  10  11  12  13  A  14  Q  15  A  16  17  18  Q  19  20  A  21  22  Q  23  24  25  A  26  27  Q  28  A  29  Q  30  31  A  32  THE  COURT  33  MR.  PLANT  34  THE  COURT  35  MR.  PLANT  36  THE  COURT  37  THE  WITNESS  38  39  THE  COURT:  40  41  MR.  PLANT:  42  43  THE  COURT:  44  MR.  PLANT:  45  46  THE  COURT  47  types of business other than logging activity which  were -- it was the intention of the creators of the  company to carry on?  Yes, to supply employment to people that are  unemployed, yes.  To supply employment generally by whatever means  could be pursued?  Yes.  Now, my understanding is that in November 1977, a  timber sale licence was granted to this company to  clear-cut log 153 acre cut stand of timber near  Cottonwood Canyon.  Do you confirm that?  No.  From your recollection?  No. That's after I left the company, just after my  directorship was expired. I no longer had interest  in sitting through their meetings.  As a citizen to Kitwanga, did you have an interest  in the activities of that company?  Not -- I have interest here but sometimes I don't  appear to their meetings, yes.  Do you have any knowledge of whether that company  did obtain a timber sale licence to carry out some  logging at Cottonwood Canyon?  Now, no, I don't know if they have that, I don't  know.  I am talking about ten -- over ten years ago?  They might have, yes.  You say they might have.  Are you just guessing or  do you have any recollection?  I am just guessing.  Where is Cottonwood Canyon?  Excuse me?  Where is Cottonwood Canyon?  Perhaps we could --  Just generally, for example.  :  That's what I want to know.  Cottonwood Canyon is.  I think I know at least five Cottonwood Canyons in  British Columbia.  I am sure there is many more.  I thought I found it earlier, my lord.  It is not on  the reserve to my understanding.  Is it on the territory?  But my recollection was that it was downstream from  the reserve.  Is it on the territory claimed by the witness'  house?  Is it on the reserve?  I don't know what 4834  1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  MR. PLANT:  Again, no, I — in fact, I don't think so.  THE COURT:  All right.  MR. PLANT:  I am going to change the subject again fairly  dramatically, my lord.  I wonder if it might be  appropriate to adjourn.  THE COURT:  I think it will be.  MR. GRANT:  My lord, I just wonder if my friend -- I understand  his difficulties.  Just from my own logistical  concerns, if he could give some estimate of his  length of time.  He indicated he would be all day  Monday.  I just wonder --  THE COURT:  All day tomorrow and all day Monday?  MR. PLANT:  I expect that I — I told my friend at the break 45  minutes or so ago that I thought I would be all day  Monday at least, and I remain of that view.  THE COURT:  We are talking all day Monday?  MR. PLANT:  Yes.  THE COURT:  And you think you will be all day?  MR. PLANT:  I expect to take at least the day Monday, my lord.  THE COURT:  You will be sometime, Mr. Macaulay?  MR. MACAULAY:  I expect an hour and a half to two hours, my  lord.  MR. GRANT:  Thank you.  THE COURT:  Thank you.  Have a pleasant weekend.  Ten fifteen on  Monday morning.  THE REGISTRAR:  Order in court.  Court will adjourn.  (PROCEEDINGS ADJOURNED AT 4:  21, 1988)  0 0 P.M. TO MONDAY, MARCH  I hereby certify the foregoing to be  a true and accurate transcript of the  proceedings herein, transcribed to the  best of my skill and ability.  TANNIS DEFOE, Official Reporter  United Reporting Service Ltd. 4835  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21


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