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Delgamuukw Trial Transcripts

[Proceedings of the Supreme Court of British Columbia 1988-05-16] British Columbia. Supreme Court May 16, 1988

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 6084  1  2 MAY 16, 1988.  3 VANCOUVER, B.C.  4  5  6 THE REGISTRAR:  Order in court.  Calling Delgamuukw versus Her  7 Majesty The Queen at bar.  8 THE COURT:  All right.  Ready to proceed, Mr. Rush?  9 MR. RUSH:  Yes, My Lord.  Before I call the next witness, I  10 would like to raise the question of the view.  11 THE COURT: Yes.  12 MR. RUSH:  In our preliminary analysis of the cost of the view,  13 it appears that in order to hire two helicopters,  14 which I think in the context would be necessary, that  15 it would cost approximately $7,000.  Now, I say two  16 because the helicopters have a limited capacity and  17 there are only places for four passengers per  18 helicopter, and if it was decided that there was going  19 to be counsel as well as one person from each of the  20 parties, then it would necessitate two helicopters.  21 And here we are estimating that, as I say, four  22 passenger seats per Jet Ranger helicopter, and we are  23 estimating two, three hour periods in two days at  24 approximately $570 per hour.  25 Now, I should say, My Lord, that that cost factor is  26 a very substantial cost for the plaintiffs, and had to  27 reflect very carefully on the project itself, and we  28 are raising this really as a preliminary matter at  29 this point.  We had hoped that it could be done for a  30 shorter period of time and in a different way.  We  31 tried various options of different sized helicopters  32 and so on.  33 We are in the position of having to explore with the  34 Court the possibility of the Court sharing some of the  35 cost of the view.  We have as yet not really -- we  36 didn't know what the cost of this was going to be.  We  37 have not really considered how the financial burden of  38 the view should be borne by the parties and with the  39 Court, so I raise this question at this point more in  40 an exploratory way, to determine if there is means by  41 which the Court can contribute or what portion if any  42 the Court will be in a position to bear some of the  43 expense for the view.  44 I had really not put my mind fully to the question  45 of the obligations of the various parties in the  46 proceedings to this, depending on the various ways in  47 which each of us would schedule activity for the 6085  1 purposes of the view, but be that as it may, at this  2 point the plaintiffs are simply not in a position to  3 expend $7,000 for the purposes of the view, and for  4 this reason I raise the matter with the Court to  5 explore whether or not there is a distribution means,  6 or if the Court can share in the distribution.  7 THE COURT:  Is the $7,000 the total cost or is that a third?  8 MR. RUSH:  No, this is the total cost for the helicopters, which  9 means that there would be additional land costs as  10 well as transportation to and from Smithers.  Our  11 assessment of those costs is that the cost of housing  12 and so on would be reasonably minimal, and any land  13 cost, such as motor vehicles, transporting in and  14 around the area by motor vehicle, I think, would be  15 fairly reasonable as well.  16 The point, I think, is that to access quickly the  17 farther reaches of the territory would require an  18 aircraft.  We've explored the possibility of a fixed  19 wing which would allow over flights of the territory,  20 but it really is not satisfactory, in the sense that  21 you could not set down and make observations from a  22 particular point, which -- and then to have some  23 discussion at those points, which in my submission  24 would be the only reasonable way to do it, given the  25 type of evidence that Your Lordship has heard.  2 6 Although you can slow a Twin Otter down to about 12 0  27 miles an hour, it really is not satisfactory to have  28 any type of view in that way.  2 9 THE COURT:  Wouldn't want to go much slower than that.  30 MR. RUSH:  I wouldn't, no, otherwise I would chose the  31 automobile, My Lord.  32 THE COURT:  Yes.  Well, do you have a programme or -- that is  33 the things that you think I should see?  34 MR. RUSH:  Well, only in a preliminary way.  When we came up  35 against the question of costs, we decided we should  36 approach this with the Court first, because it became  37 obvious to us that even on a scale down basis, which  38 we considered to be unsatisfactory, that is one day at  39 three hours in a one day period, that would really be  40 unsatisfactory, I think, from all parties perspective.  41 So we did not go farther, although we have put our  42 mind to the participants.  And I think Mr. Grant made  43 some submission to you on the question that certainly  44 it was the plaintiffs proposal that we would not --  45 that we do not see the necessity of having counsel  46 present, and that if counsel were not to be present,  47 that might eliminate the need for the second 6086  1 helicopter, and thereby reduce the cost by half.  2 In addition to that Your Lordship indicated that  3 each of the parties might express what it was that  4 they would like to have you see, and we haven't got to  5 that point, but we certainly would like to have you  6 access to certain parts of the territory that could  7 not be accessed by road, and that would relate to some  8 of the evidence that's been heard, both in terms of  9 the oral evidence before Your Lordship and as well the  10 evidence that was -- has been led in commission.  And  11 we thought as well that there should be a division of  12 the view between the Gitksan territories and the  13 Wet'suwet'en territories, so there would essentially  14 be a northern loop and a southern loop each focusing  15 on the territories of the two peoples.  So that's as  16 far as our discussion has taken us.  But we do think  17 that we couldn't do it for -- in a period under two  18 hours, and in fact we were targeting three.  And that  19 seems to be a reasonable period for the rental of a  20 helicopter for that time.  21 THE COURT:  And you think one three hour flight to the north  22 would suffice, and one three hour flight to the south  23 would suffice?  24 MR. RUSH:  That's correct.  25 THE COURT:  Presumably each from Smithers?  26 MR. RUSH:  Yes.  And over two days.  We think that that would  27 probably be a pretty hefty day, although it's --  28 that's three hours exclusive, I believe, of ferrying,  29 but I'm not certain of that.  Could be three hours  30 from the moment you get into the helicopter.  31 THE COURT:  Yes.  And are there other things that you want me to  32 see that can be visited by road?  33 MR. RUSH:  Yes.  34 THE COURT:  And is it your view that — shouldn't use that  35 word -- and it is your submission that we should have  36 a view of the road access areas regardless of the  37 helicopter visits, or would you say it's not  38 worthwhile if we didn't do it at all?  3 9 MR. RUSH:  I haven't explored that at the moment.  At the moment  40 I think our perspective is that it would be desirable  41 to have a view, but as we marched into the project and  42 realized the cost implications, we had to reconsider  43 it, and I think that given that land travel would be  44 significantly less costly, I think it would be still  45 our view that we should proceed with that side of it.  46 But again I think the whole project is considerably  47 open to cost analysis. 6087  1 THE COURT:  Yes.  All right.  Well, do I understand that, Mr.  2 Grant, you're saying that the two helicopter visits  3 with one helicopter would be $7,000?  4 MR. RUSH:  No.  Two helicopters for the two visits at six hours  5 would be $7,000.  6 THE COURT:  All right.  So presumably two flights of three hours  7 each with one helicopter would be about half that?  8 MR. RUSH:  Half that.  That's right.  9 THE COURT:  Yes.  All right.  And you are prepared to see that  10 done without counsel, using one helicopter -- but who  11 would -- somebody representing the plaintiffs would --  12 do your friends know who you have in mind for that?  13 MR. RUSH:  Well, we haven't thoroughly thought that out, because  14 we had considered that Your Lordship might wish to  15 travel, or certainly we would like to have travel with  16 you a Gitksan chief and a Wet'suwet'en chief, so  17 essentially we would recommend that there be  18 nominated, if you will, one plaintiff to travel with  19 Your Lordship and one non-counsel to travel from each  20 of the other two parties.  And yes, that's the  21 perspective that we would recommend proceeding on.  22 But it -- if it was decided that there would be a  23 second day or a second leg, then we would consider  24 having a Wet'suwet'en or a Gitksan, as the case may  25 be, chief travel with you.  2 6 THE COURT:  Okay.  All right.  So that I will know what you are  27 hoping that I can explore, what is it you think I  28 should be seeking, some contribution towards that  29 $3,500 or the whole thing?  30 MR. RUSH:  Well, on those two options, My Lord, the latter.  We  31 are seeking a participation by the court in bearing of  32 the cost.  I think the plaintiffs are facing a very  33 present tight --  34 THE COURT:  Yes.  Well, I can start by saying — this much I can  35 say, that Her Majesty through her Ministry of Justice  36 will pay my fare and my expenses to Smithers, and she  37 will pay my land travel.  I don't know whether you  38 included any of that in the budgeting.  The figure I  39 can't speak about is the question whether she will pay  40 for me to hire a helicopter to go and look at a part  41 of this territory.  I will have to make some inquiries  42 into that, and I will do so, but if there is anything  43 else that you think that I should be asking or seeking  44 instructions on, I will be glad to hear anything  45 further. I won't be able to do this now conveniently  4 6 until tomorrow morning. Time changes being what they  47 are from here to the east -- well, I might be able to 60?  1 make a call at lunchtime, and sometimes you get people  2 at lunchtime and sometimes you don't, because they are  3 in meetings, after we adjourn for lunch.  But I would  4 like to hear what the other sides say about this  5 proposal.  6 Mr. Mackenzie, are you able to speak to it at all?  7 MR. MACKENZIE:  No, My Lord, this is the first we heard of it.  8 I would appreciate the opportunity to get instructions  9 on this as well.  10 THE COURT:  All right.  Ms. Koenigsberg?  11 MS. KOENIGSBERG: We have no instructions with regard to this  12 matter, although it was raised informally.  I would  13 say this, that it seems to me that it is in fact  14 expensive for all parties, undoubtedly not just the  15 plaintiffs, particularly in relation to the probitive  16 value.  I would have some real concerns as counsel, in  17 terms of what I would recommend to our client, in  18 terms of the Chief Justice going with the plaintiffs  19 and counsel not going, and it really turns on if  20 something of -- that would truly assist the court were  21 to occur as a result of what Your Lordship sees,  22 counsel are not there and can't communicate with Your  23 Lordship in relation to whatever it is that might  24 determine your view of the evidence, and I think that  25 would be a singular disadvantage to any party put in  26 that position, and for that reason I would find it  27 somewhat difficult to -- certainly to agree or to  28 recommend that such course of action take place.  2 9 At the same time it seems to me that it is an  30 extremely expensive outing, and there is no doubt that  31 it would be of some assistance to see parts of the  32 territories which are probably inaccessible by road,  33 but there are parts of the territory which have not  34 been seen, of course, by counsel, and likely no one  35 within the -- who works for either of the party  36 defendants, and so without going and incurring that  37 expense, we would be at that disadvantage.  So those  38 are really my thoughts on it, but I don't have  39 instructions on that.  40 THE COURT: All right.  Well, I suppose in view of what you said,  41 Ms. Koenigsberg, I should explore the $7,000 figure  42 rather than the $3,500 figure.  I will do so, and I  43 will let you know as soon as I can.  I'm not sure if  44 there is any experience in this regard.  Does anybody  45 know who paid Sir Robert McGary's trip to the south  46 seas when he was on judicial business in that  47 connection?  I suppose I could phone and ask him. 6089  1 MS. KOENIGSBERG: Can't say that I do, My Lord.  2 MR. RUSH:  My Lord, there is a territory that hasn't been  3 mentioned so far in the case, and it is located  4 somewhere in the southern Pacific.  I don't know if  5 Your Lordship --  6 THE COURT:  But I'm aware of judges in Ontario travelling to  7 places like Virginia and Nassau to take evidence.  I  8 think the parties paid for it, which has also been  9 some source of trouble to me as well.  There is a  10 pretty strong -- I have a very strong view that judges  11 should not be travelling on funds paid for by parties,  12 except under the most stringent controls.  The very  13 few times when any judges of this court have travelled  14 has been on the basis where the parties have put up  15 the money with the commissioner for Canadian judicial  16 affairs, and the judges charge their expenses against  17 that fund in the same way that they would charge if  18 they were travelling on their own judicial business,  19 so that there is no appearance that the judges are  20 taking money from parties, even for business travel.  21 So there are those considerations that will be --  22 those are administrative and can be resolved.  23 I suppose I should just add to this discussion for  24 whatever advantage there is to it, and that is that  25 I'm aware or everyone is aware of the fact that the  26 provincial government has aircraft, as does the  27 federal government.  I don't know if they would be  28 prepared to make shows -- for example, provincial  29 court judges travel by government aircraft frequently.  30 I don't know whether that's a matter that Mr.  31 MacKenzie should explore or whether I should.  I  32 prefer he did.  I think my lines of communication are  33 to the department of justice, not to the provincial  34 government, so perhaps I should ask Mr. MacKenzie if  35 he would explore that avenue.  Would you be good  36 enough to look into that question, Mr. MacKenzie?  37 MR. MACKENZIE:  Yes, My Lord.  38 THE COURT: All right.  Thank you.  39 MR. RUSH:  That's the only preliminary that I have, My Lord.  40 THE COURT:  Was there not some motions stood over to today to do  41 with discovery of documents, or was that some other  42 day?  43 MR. RUSH:  I can't advise Your Lordship on that.  44 THE COURT:  There was an argument a week or so ago about band  45 council resolutions.  Was that not stood over until  46 today?  47 MR. MACKENZIE:  Yes, My Lord, those matters, as Your Lordship 6090  Muldoe (for Plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Rush  THE COURT  MR. RUSH:  has mentioned, were recalled or adjourned generally,  and Mr. Goldie, with respect to the band council  documents, is preparing a more focused document  request, as Your Lordship suggested during that  argument.  :  All right.  Well, it can be brought on any time that  is convenient to your learned friends.  All right.  Thank you.  Mr. Rush.  I call the next witness, My Lord, Mr. Pete Muldoe,  Gitludahl.  Mr. Muldoe, would you come up to the witness stand  please.  PETE MULDOE, a witness called on  behalf of the Plaintiffs, having  been duly sworn, testifies as  follows:  20  your last name.  21 THE WITNESS:  22 MR. MACKENZIE  Does  RUSH:  My name is Peter Muldoe of Kispiox.  Excuse me, My Lord, do I understand that  perhaps Mr. Rush will say something about this.  Mr. Muldoe testify through an interpreter?  I should say, My Lord, that Mr. Muldoe will require  some interpretation, but we are going to begin his  evidence in English.  But Mr. Muldoe has a hearing  impairment, and it, I think, would be -- I simply  wanted to advise the court of that.  I think perhaps  Mr. Muldoe didn't quite hear what she said.  31 THE REGISTRAR:  Would you like me to redo it?  32 MR. RUSH:  Maybe you could.  33 THE REGISTRAR:  Would you stand and table the Bible in your  right hand.  23  24  2 5 MR  26  27  28  29  30  34  35  36  37  38  39  4 0 MR  41  42  (WITNESS RESWORN)  THE REGISTRAR:  And I caution you, Miss Sampson, you are still  under oath.  RUSH:  I have asked Miss Sampson to be present in order to  assist in the event that translation is needed.  RUSH:  43 EXAMINATION IN CHIEF BY MR.  44  45 Q   Mr. Muldoe, if you need to have any translation,  46 just -- Miss Sampson will help translate for you.  47 A   Yes. 6091  1  Q  2  3  4  A  5  Q  6  7  A  8  Q  9  A  10  Q  11  12  A  13  Q  14  A  15  Q  16  A  17  Q  18  A  P. Muldoe (for Plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Rush  And if you have trouble hearing me, the court room is  a large room and sometimes the sound gets diffused, so  if you have trouble hearing me, please say so.  Uh-huh.  All right.  Mr. Muldoe, your Gitksan hereditary  chief's name is Gitludahl?  Yes.  And you are the head chief of the house of Gitludahl?  Yes.  And your house is in the Gisgaast clan or the Fireweed  clan?  Yes.  And you are from the village of Kispiox?  Yes.  And you are one of the plaintiffs in this court case?  Yes.  What was -- what's the date of your birth, Mr. Muldoe?  9th date of December, 1909.  19 THE COURT: Thank you.  20 Q   Mr. Muldoe, you are 79?  21 A   78, something like that.  22 Q   Okay.  23 THE COURT:  Sure doesn't look it.  2 4 MR. RUSH:  Mr. Muldoe, your mother was Ellen Bright?  Yes.  And she was from the house of Wiigyet?  Yes.  W-i-i-g-y-e-t, My Lord.  Yes.  And she died in 1918?  Yes.  And your father was William Muldoe?  Yes.  And William was from the House of Spookw?  Yes.  And he passed on when you were young, about four or  five?  Yes.  Now, when you were about 11 years old your  grandmother, she was Martha Starr; is that right?  Yes.  She sent you to live with your sister Mary?  Yes.  Where was Mary living at the time?  Well, she was living at somewhere on around  Moricetown.  25  Q  26  A  27  Q  28  A  29  Q  30  A  31  Q  32  A  33  Q  34  A  35  Q  36  A  37  Q  38  39  A  40  Q  41  42  A  43  Q  44  A  45  Q  46  A  47 6092  P. Muldoe (for Plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Rush  1 Q Around Moricetown.  And Mary was -- who was she  2 married to?  3 A Tommy Michell.  4 Q Tommy Michell?  5 A Yes.  6 Q And what house was Tommy from, big Tommy Michell?  7 A It's from the house of Alfred Namox.  8 Q From Alfred Namox?  9 A Yes.  10 Q That's the house of Namox?  11 A Yes.  12 Q And did you spend your teenage years living with your  13 sister?  14 A Yes.  15 Q And what did you do with big Tommy Michell when you  16 were living with your sister and big Tommy?  17 A I go out travelling with them part time.  Whenever he  18 goes out trapping, I go along so as to help him out.  19 Q Okay.  Was this on big Tommy Michell's territory?  20 A It was on Namox's territory.  21 Q And did you also go trapping with your brother-in-law  22 Gabriel Louie?  23 A Yes.  24 Q Was he married to one of your other sisters?  25 A Yes, married to one of my sisters, Flossie.  26 Q Flossie, okay.  And you stayed living and trapping and  27 working with your big Tommy Michell and Gabriel Louie  28 until 1931?  29 A Yes.  30 Q Okay.  And then you moved to -- back to Kispiox?  31 A Yes.  32 Q Okay.  Mr. Muldoe, I want to ask you about some of  33 your names.  Did you have a child's name?  34 A Yes.  35 Q And what was that child's name?  36 A That child's name was Lax Suukws.  37 Q Lax Suukws?  38 A Yes.  39 THE TRANSLATOR:  1506.  4 0 THE COURT:  Yes.  41 MR. RUSH: An additional list, My Lord, I guess has been  42 prepared.  43 THE COURT:  Yes, I have a list now that goes up to 5060.  44 MR. RUSH: And that was 1506 did you say?  45 THE TRANSLATOR:  Yes.  46 MR. RUSH: Thank you.  47 Q Mr. Muldoe, the name of Lax Suukws, is that a name in 6093  P. Muldoe (for Plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Rush  1 the house of Wiigyet?  2 A Yes.  3 Q And how long did you hold the name of Lax Suukws?  How  4 many years?  Do you recall?  5 A I hold it quite a few years, until after I get back to  6 Kispiox.  7 Q Okay.  And did you take another name after Lax Suukws?  8 A Yes.  9 Q What was that name?  10 A The name Luu goo'mx.  11 THE TRANSLATOR:  That's 1507.  12 MR. RUSH: Thank you.  13 Q And what does the name of Luu goo'mx mean when its  14 translated from Gitksan into English?  15 A Well, I take you through it.  It's the meaning of it,  16 like if you say it's a grizzly bear, it have six cubs.  17 That's the meaning of the Luu goo'mx.  18 Q Six cubs of a beer?  19 A Six cubs.  20 Q Okay.  And is that a name that is from the house of  21 Wiigyet?  22 A Yes.  23 Q Now, did you take -- did you eventually take the name  24 of Wii Seeks?  25 A Yes.  26 Q In the house of Wiigyet?  27 A Yes.  28 MR. RUSH:   That's 709 on the plaintiffs' list, My Lord.  2 9 THE COURT:  Thank you.  3 0 MR. RUSH:  31 Q Do you remember the year, Mr. Muldoe, that you took  32 the name of Wii seeks?  33 A I just don't remember.  I don't remember exactly the  34 name of the years.  35 Q Was that about 1947 or '48?  36 A Yes, I think so.  37 Q Okay.  And who held the name of Wii seeks before you  38 took it?  39 A It's my grandfather, William Jackson.  40 Q And did you take the name of Wii seeks at William  41 Jackson's funeral feast?  42 A Yes.  43 Q And did you hold the name of Wii seeks until you took  44 the name of Gitludahl?  45 A Yes.  4 6 Q And I understand that you took the name of Gitludahl  47 on December 21st, 1985? 6094  P. Muldoe (for Plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Rush  1 A   Right.  2 Q   Who was the holder of the name of Gitludahl before you  3 took it?  4 A  Moses Morrison.  5 THE COURT:  I'm sorry?  6 THE TRANSLATOR:  Moses Morrison.  7 THE COURT:  Moses.  Thank you.  8 MR. RUSH:  9 Q   And Moses passed on on December the 18th, 1985?  10 A   Yes.  11 Q   And then at his funeral feast you took the name?  12 A   Yes.  13 Q   Now, before you took the name of Gitludahl at Moses  14 Morrison's funeral feast, did Moses name you to be his  15 successor?  16 A   Yes.  17 Q   Do you know how much before 1985 did he do that?  18 A   I think it was in 1956 when he first told me that I'll  19 be taking his name after he passed on.  20 Q   Okay.  And did he tell other people in Gitludahl's  21 house that he would -- he was going to pass the name  22 to you?  23 A   Yes, when we had a feast he would tell all the people  24 that whenever he passed on I'll be taking the name of  25 Gitludahl.  26 Q   Okay.  In 1956 did he do anything else in respect of  27 his territory?  28 A   Yes.  He transferred me all hunting ground and the  29 trapping ground, and from that date he told me that  30 I'll be full responsible with anything that's on the  31 hunting ground and the trapping ground.  32 Q   Where was that hunting and trapping ground located?  33 A   It's located up the Kispiox valley about -- say about  34 39 miles from Hazelton, and it's located -- and the  35 name of the place is Naa Dax De'et.  36 Q   Naa Dax De'et.  37 A  A name that you call the Twin Lake.  38 Q   Just pause for just a moment, Mr. Muldoe.  39 THE TRANSLATOR:  It's in —  4 0 THE COURT:  We have the name here.  41 MR. RUSH:  Yes, it's 1363.  There is a lake with the same name.  42 THE COURT:  Is that right?  43 THE TRANSLATOR:  N-a-a, D-a-x, D-e'e-t.  4 4 THE COURT:  Thank you.  45 MR. RUSH:  Thank you.  46 Q   Mr. Muldoe, you said that Nax Dax De'et, that means  47 Twin Lakes? 6095  1  A  2  Q  3  4  A  5  6  7  Q  8  9  A  10  Q  11  A  12  Q  13  A  14  Q  15  16  A  17  Q  18  A  19  Q  2 0 THE  TRANS  21 MR.  RUSH:  22  Q  23  24  A  25  Q  26  A  27  Q  28  A  29  Q  30  A  31  Q  32  33  A  34  Q  35  36  A  37  Q  38  A  39  Q  40  41  A  42  Q  43  A  44  45  46  Q  47 THE  COURT  P. Muldoe (for Plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Rush  Yes.  The word Nax Dax De'et, when it's translated into  English, what does it mean when directly translated?  Well, the two little lakes are close together, it  means -- in Indian they are tied together, so in  English they call it Twin Lake.  Okay.  Since 1956 have you gone out to the territory  at Naa Dax De'et?  Yes.  And what have you done there?  Do the trapping in there and hunting.  And have you travelled throughout the territory there?  Yes.  Now, in 1956, Mr. Muldoe, were you also adopted into  the house of Gitludahl?  Yes.  And before you were adopted what house were you in?  I was in the house of Wiigyet.  Okay.  IATOR:  75.  Thank you.  75 on the plaintiffs' list, My Lord.  In 1971 or 1972 did Moses Morrison pass a name over to  you from the house of Gitludahl?  Yes.  What name did he pass to you?  Gitludahl.  This is in '71 or '72?  Oh, '71.  This is a little earlier?  Would you repeat that again please.  Yes.  Maybe I'll start it a little differently, Mr.  Muldoe.  Did you raise a pole?  Yes.  And at that -- that pole was raised with Alvin Weget?  W-e-g-e-t, My Lord.  Now, was Alvin's name Dinii?  Yes.  D-i-n-i-i.  Was that pole raised in 1971 or '72?  In '71.  '71.  Okay.  Now, at that time did Moses pass a name  to you?  Yes.  Do you remember what the name was?  Well, they said after they pass on I will be using the  name of Gitludahl, and at the same time he was passing  the name of Ye'el onto me.  He passed the name of Ye'el to you then?  :  Is that Y-a-1? 6096  1  THE  INTER  2  MR.  RUSH:  3  THE  COURT  4  Q  5  A  6  Q  7  8  A  9  Q  10  11  A  12  Q  13  A  14  Q  15  16  A  17  18  19  Q  20  A  21  Q  22  A  23  24  25  26  27  THE  TRANS  28  THE  COURT  29  MR.  RUSH:  30  Q  31  32  33  A  34  Q  35  A  36  Q  37  38  A  39  Q  40  THE  COURT  41  MR.  RUSH:  42  MR.  RUSH:  43  Q  44  45  A  46  Q  47  P. Muldoe (for Plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Rush  URETER: That's Y-e'e-1.  Thank you.  :  Thank you.  Where was the pole raised in 1971?  In the village of Kispiox.  And the name Ye'el, that is a name in the house of  Gitludahl?  Yes.  What does Ye'el mean?  Perhaps I should ask you, where  does the name Ye' el come from?  It comes from T'amlaxamit.  From T'amlaxamit?  Yes.  And can you tell His Lordship how the name came to  Kispiox?  Yes.  Ye'el from T'amlaxamit, and whenever he kill  somebody he runs away and hide himself in Kispiox,  before there was any village there.  Okay.  And was the name of Kispiox at that time --  Yes.  -- was it Anspayaxw?  Well, before they have that name, and when they know  that Ye'el was hiding in there whenever he kill  somebody, so that's how the Kispiox get its name.  It's a name of Anspayaxw.  It's the name of the hiding  place.  IATOR: It's 1311.  :  All right.  And was the person who held the name of Ye'el at that  time, was that person also holding the name of  Gitludahl?  Yes.  Is this part of an adaawk?  Yes.  And has Gitludahl and Ye'el continued to live at  Kispiox?  Yes.  Okay.  :  What was the answer to that question?  He nodded.  He nodded and said very quietly yes.  Mr. Muldoe, can you answer as loudly as you can, so we  can hear everything?  All right.  Thank you.  Now, was there a meeting of Gitludahl's  house while Moses was still living, where the seating 6097  1  2  A  3  4  5  6  Q  7  8  9  A  10  Q  11  A  12  13  Q  14  15  16  A  17  Q  18  A  19  20  21  Q  22  A  23  Q  24  A  25  Q  26  A  27  Q  28  A  29  Q  30  A  31  Q  32  33  34  A  35  Q  36  37  A  38  Q  39  40  41  A  42  43  44  45  46  47  P. Muldoe (for Plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Rush  of Gitludahl's table was determined?  Uh-huh.  Yes, we had a meeting with Moses in his own  house in the first place, then he decided what to do  when he tell the other people that I'll be taking his  name whenever he pass on.  And do you recall if in about 1982 there was a meeting  where it was decided who would sit at the head of the  table?  Yes.  And where did Moses say you were to sit?  Yes, he showed me where I will be sitting.  I will be  sitting Gitludahl table.  When Moses passed on in December 18th of 1985, was  there a family meeting where you were chosen to take  the name?  Yes.  Okay.  Do you remember who was at that meeting?  Yes, Delgamuukw was there and Gertie Morrison, Elsie  Morrison and Mary Johnson and Lottie Muldoe.  And if I  missed one, they were all there anyway.  Was Alvin there?  Alvin Weget was there.  Was Neil Sterritt there?  Neil Sterritt was there.  Neil Sterritt junior?  Junior.  Was Walter Harris there?  Yes.  He held the name of Geel then.  And was Ralph Michell there?  Yes.  Now, Mr. Muldoe, you said that you held the name of  Ye'el from the house of Gitludahl up until you took  the name of Gitludahl?  Yes.  Did you also hold the name of Wii seeks at the same  time as you held the name Ye'el?  Yes.  Okay.  Can you tell the court what the relationship is  between the house of Gitludahl and the house of  Wiigyet?  Like after Gitludahl was passed on and there was the  last person in the house of Gitludahl -- might be some  women there, but she was the last man that lived in  the house of Gitludahl, so that is reason why he chose  me.  I wouldn't be in the place, but he chose me to  take on his name from there on.  And Gitludahl and  Wiigyet and Wii seeks, they all combine, and although 609?  P. Muldoe (for Plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Rush  1 they lived in the different places, like Wii seeks  2 lived in the Gisgaast and Gitludahl in Kispiox and the  3 others in Kuldoe, but they still all in the same  4 family.  They all in the Fireweed and they all combine  5 there, and from there on its -- they all working  6 together.  7 Q   When you referred to the Gitludahl who passed on, was  8 that Moses Morrison?  9 A   Yes.  10 Q   Was Moses the last member of the house of Gitludahl?  11 A   Yes.  12 Q   Before you were adopted?  13 A   Yes.  14 THE COURT:  I'm not sure, but I think it might be important.  15 Could I have the names of the house that he says  16 combined together?  17 MR. RUSH:  Yes.  They were Waiget, W-a-i-g-e-t, Wii seeks,  18 W-i-i-s-e-e-k-s, and Wiigyet, W-i-i-g-y-e-t, and  19 Gitludahl.  20 Q   Mr. Muldoe, did Gitludahl combine with Waiget, Wiigyet  21 and Wii seeks when you took the name?  22 A   Yes.  23 Q   Did they come together?  24 A   Yes.  25 Q   W-i-i-g-y-e-t.  2 6 THE COURT:  Thank you.  27 A   Yes.  28 Q   I want to talk for -- at least I want to ask you some  29 questions for a moment about the feast where you took  3 0 the name --  31 A   Uh-huh.  32 Q   -- of Gitludahl.  And you have told us it happened on  33 December 21st, 1985.  Can you recall about how many  34 people were present when you took that name?  35 A   I believe it was approximately, with everybody there,  36 approximately about three hundred people.  37 Q   Okay.  How old was Moses when he passed on?  38 A   I just don't remember exactly, but he's just a couple  39 more days and he will be -- I forget whether it will  40 be 80 or 82.  I just don't remember.  He's pretty well  41 my age.  42 Q   Okay.  Now, was there a feast book kept at the feast  43 where you took the name?  44 A  A feast book, yes.  45 Q   And did that feast book record the contributions that  46 were made by the people who were in attendance?  47 A   Yes. 6099  1  Q  2  A  3  Q  4  5  A  6  Q  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  A  17  Q  18  19  A  20  Q  21  A  22  Q  23  A  24  Q  25  26  27  28  29  A  30  Q  31  32  A  33  Q  34  A  35  Q  36  37  A  38  Q  39  A  40  Q  41  42  43  44  A  45  Q  46  47  P. Muldoe (for Plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Rush  And it recorded the expenses that were paid?  Yes.  And did the feast book also record the names that were  given out?  Yes.  I am going to show you that feast book, Mr. Muldoe.  I  am going to hand up a copy of a document book, My  Lord, and this is your copy.  It contains one original  photograph, and the others, regrettably, only have  photocopies.  Could the witness be shown Tab 1,  please.  Just ask you to look at this, Mr. Muldoe.  Now,  Mr. Muldoe, this is a photocopy of a feast book that  was kept on a notebook.  Do you recognize this as the  feast book that was kept at -- for your feast?  Yes.  Okay.  And do you recall who kept the book for you?  You didn't write what's in the book here?  Yes.  Do you remember who did that?  I think Irene Cournoyer, I think, wrote this.  Irene Cournoyer?  Yes.  Now, I just want you to look at the book.  It's  entitled here Gitludahl feast, December 21, 1985,  Kispiox.  And, Mr. Muldoe, you will notice on the page  that is entitled family, your name Pete Muldoe  appears, and it shows "goods 3,360".  Is that dollars?  Yes.  The value of the goods.  And it shows "cash $2,505".  And that was all --  that's dollar value, is it?  Yes.  That's all cash.  And the total is $5,865?  Yes.  And is that the amount of money which you contributed  yourself to this feast?  Yes, that is by myself.  That's cash and goods value?  Yes.  Okay.  And do the records that -- or at least the  numbers and the names beside each of the numbers, do  they indicate who contributed those amounts of money  at the feast?  Yes.  Now, I would just like you to go along to, if I may,  Mr. Muldoe, the first -- I think there is one page out  of sequence, My Lord, which is the third page, I 6100  1  2 THE  COURT  3 MR.  RUSH:  4  Q  5  6  A  7  8  Q  9  10  A  11  Q  12  13  14  15  A  16  Q  17  18  19  A  20  Q  21  22  A  23  Q  24  25  26  27  A  28  Q  29  30  A  31  Q  32  A  33  Q  34  35  36  A  37  Q  38  39  40  41  A  42  43  Q  44  45  46  A  47  Q  P. Muldoe (for Plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Rush  believe, is out of sequence.  :  Yes.  Mr. Muldoe, the pages that are marked family, those  were contributed by the -- by whom?  Those were contributed by the house of Wii seeks and  Wiigyet and Gitludahl.  And it shows a total there of $18,537.50.  Is that  right?  Yes.  And then there was contributions on the Ha Wai.  That's spelled H-a, w-a-1.  And there are one, two,  three pages and then it shows the haircut  contributions.  Uh-huh.  And then it shows the flower contributions, and at  this bottom of the page that's marked flowers it  indicates a grand total money cash of $19,268?  Uh-huh.  Is that the total amount of money that was contributed  at the feast where you took the name of Gitludahl?  Yes, I think.  Okay.  All right.  Now, Mr. Muldoe, there is a page  that's marked payment of expenses.  And are these --  do these record the expenses that were paid out of the  contributions that were made?  Yes.  Okay.  And there is a word here that's spelled Xbiist,  X-b-i-i-s-t.  Perhaps you could assist me in the --  Xbiist.  That's the coffin.  Okay.  And it shows the sum of $3,441 for that.  Yes.  Okay.  Now, I want to ask you in particular about --  where it shows clothing, is that the money that was  expended for the clothing for Moses?  Yes.  Okay.  Now, it shows as well on the last page, Mr.  Muldoe, that there was a sum that was expended for  land claims, and that shows $200.  What was that for?  Why did that happen?  We donated that to our land claim to use in the court  case or any expenses.  Okay.  Just one other entry that I want to refer you  to.  Mr. Muldoe, did Moses Morrison, did he leave  money behind to contribute to the feast?  Yes.  Do you recall how much that was? 6101  P. Muldoe (for Plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Rush  1 A It was about three thousand, I think.  2 Q Okay.  Is that commonly done among the Gitksan, for  3 the person who passes on to leave money to cover his  4 feast and the passing of the name?  5 A Yes.  6 Q Okay.  Now, I would like you to turn to the second  7 page, Mr. Muldoe.  I'm sorry, it's the fourth page in,  8 counting the cover page.  Here it says "Pete Muldoe,  9 Moses Morrison feast", and then it's indicated here  10 "Names given:  December 21, 1985."  Now, I want to ask  11 you, were these names given out at this feast?  12 A Yes.  13 Q And it shows the first is your name, Gitludahl, and  14 the second is Midig'em gyamk?  15 A Yes.  16 Q And that shows Neil J. Sterritt.  Is that Neil junior?  17 A Yes.  18 Q And then there was the name of Wii seeks, and was that  19 passed to Ralph Michell?  20 A Yes.  21 Q And then there is the name of Wii Hlaamii, and that  22 was passed to Cheryl Sebastian?  23 A Yes.  24 Q And the name of Wihl Meegai.  25 Perhaps you could help me, Mrs. Sampson.  It's the  26 fifth one.  27 THE TRANSLATOR: It's 1499.  2 8 MR. RUSH:  29 Q That was Terry Muldoe, Mr. Muldoe?  30 A Yes.  31 Q And then the sixth one is Naa Wee?  32 A That.  33 Q And that's Charlie Muldoe?  34 A Yes.  35 Q And the seventh.  Can I ask you to help me here, Mrs.  3 6 Sampson.  37 A In English they call it in slow motion.  38 THE COURT:  I have them all on this page here, so I have them  39 all.  4 0 MR. RUSH:  41 Q That was Brian Muldoe, and that was the English  42 meaning of Kootsxamgipaix.  43 A Slow motion.  44 Q Did Neil Sterritt junior once hold that name?  45 A Yes.  46 Q Mr. Muldoe, the names that are listed here is the name  47 of Wii seeks, and is that from the house of Wiigyet? 6102  P. Muldoe (for Plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Rush  1 A   Yes.  2 Q   Are all the other names that were handed out at this  3 feast --  4 A   Yes.  5 Q   -- that were passed to these people, were they names  6 from Gitludahl's house?  7 A   Yes.  8 Q   And where was it decided -- was it decided before the  9 feast who the names would be passed to?  10 A   It was decided by the family.  11 Q   Was this at a meeting before the feast?  12 A   Yes.  13 THE COURT: I'm a little uncertain, Mr. Rush, and you may wish to  14 clarify it, as to how there could be a family of this  15 size, if Moses Morrison was the last member -- last  16 male member I guess he said, and that may be the  17 explanation, but I would be grateful for some  18 assistance.  19 MR. RUSH:  Yes.  Thank you.  20 Q   When you referred to the fact that it was the family  21 that decided that these names would be passed at the  22 feast, which family were you talking about?  23 A   It's family of Wiigyet, the family of Wii seeks and  24 the family of Gitludahl.  25 THE COURT: Oh, it's the clan then is it?  26 MR. RUSH:  No, I think it's the — those houses together.  27 THE COURT:  All right.  28 MR. RUSH:  It's not the whole of the clan.  2 9 THE COURT:  Thank you.  3 0 MR. RUSH:  31 Q   At the funeral feast, Mr. Muldoe, was a blanket placed  32 on you at the feast?  33 A   Yes.  34 Q   And do you recall who placed the blanket on you?  35 A   It was placed on me by Neil Sterritt senior and  36 Spookw.  Steve Robinson.  37 Q   Steve Robinson held the name of Spookw?  38 A   Spookw.  39 Q   Now, was there a crest on the back of the blanket?  40 A   Crest on the back of the blanket was Midig'em Gyamk.  41 Q   Now, before I move to that, My Lord, may the feast  42 book be the first exhibit.  4 3 THE COURT:  Yes.  44 MR. RUSH:  Or the next in line.  45 THE REGISTRAR:  Exhibit 471.  46  47 (EXHIBIT NO. 471 -  GITLUDAHL FEAST BOOK - 6103  P. Muldoe (for Plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Rush  1 DECEMBER 21, 1985 - KISPIOX)  2  3 THE COURT:  Thank you. I didn't get the name of the crest that  4 was on the back of the blanket.  The name was given to  5 me before.  6 THE TRANSLATOR: It's 1500.  7 THE COURT:  1500?  8 THE TRANSLATOR: Yes.  9 THE COURT:  Thank you.  Yes.  All right.  Thank you.  That will  10 be Exhibit 471.  11 MR. RUSH:  12 Q   And what does Midig'em Gyamk mean in English, Mr.  13 Muldoe?  14 A   Grizzly of the sun.  15 THE COURT: That's s-u-n?  16 MR. RUSH:  Yes, My Lord.  17 Q   If you will turn please to tab 2, I would like to show  18 you a photograph -- a photocopy of a photograph at tab  19 2.  That is a photograph of your holding a blanket?  20 A   Yes.  21 Q   And is that the blanket that you referred to as the  22 blanket with the crest of Midig'em Gyamk?  23 A   Yes.  24 Q   Now, Mr. Muldoe, if you will look at the photograph,  25 the figure in the middle, not the small figures on the  26 side, what is the figure in the middle of the blanket,  27 the large figure?  2 8 A  Midig'em Gyamk.  29 Q   And can you just tell us what that shows?  What's in  30 the -- what's around the outside of the circle and  31 what's on the inside?  32 A   It's a collar that Midig'em Gyamk has, that's around  33 his neck.  34 Q   And what is the collar?  What's the collar made out  35 of, I guess?  36 A   Oh, it's the sun.  37 Q   And is the Midig'em Gyamk, is that a bear?  38 A   Yes.  39 Q   What kind of bear is that?  40 A   It's a sun grizzly.  41 Q   Now, there are six small figures, three on each side  42 of Midig'em Gyamk?  43 A   Yes.  44 Q   What are they?  What do they represent?  45 A  Well, the -- you call them heavenly child.  46 Q   And there are two of those figures with what appears  47 to be a curl coming out of the top of the head.  Do 6104  P. Muldoe (for Plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Rush  1 you see the top two there?  2 A Yes.  3 Q What does that represent?  4 A They call that a Wii Ax.  That's on the bottom part is  5 it?  6 Q Yes.  7 A They don't have them --  8 Q What is a Wii Ax when you translate that into English?  9 A A fern root.  10 THE COURT:  I didn't get name of the fern root.  11 THE TRANSLATOR:  W-i-i a-x.  12 MR. RUSH: Thank you.  13 Q Now, there are six figures there, Mr. Muldoe.  Are  14 they six heavenly children?  15 A Yes.  16 Q And does that represent a crest from an adaawk?  17 A Yes.  18 Q And do you -- what is the adaawk?  That is, where  19 these six heavenly figures come from.  20 A Well, they figure they all sort of represent from the  21 Gisgaast clan, and I believe that adaawk has been  22 already told by Ryan.  23 Q Is that Olive Ryan?  24 A Olive Ryan yes.  25 Q And is that the Skaawo'o adaawk?  26 A Yes.  27 Q Yes.  Is that the adaawk of the Gisgaast?  28 A Yes.  29 Q Okay.  Now, do the six heavenly figures have names?  30 A Yes.  All these child, they have a name.  31 Q Okay.  Now, are they names that are now held by people  32 in Gitludahl's house?  33 A Yes.  34 Q Okay.  Now, can you tell me what the names are?  35 A Well, I remember some of them.  One is Xsim Max  36 Magaiy.  37 Q Is that held today by Cheryl Stephens?  38 A Yes.  39 A And the other name is Max Hliyak.  40 THE TRANSLATOR:  Xsim Max Magaiy is 1541, and the second one is  41 1545.  42 THE COURT:  Thank you.  43 Q And do you recall who holds the name of Max Hliyak?  44 A Yes.  45 Q Who holds that name today?  46 A I just don't remember it.  47 Q Is it Violet Johnson? 6105  P. Muldoe (for Plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Rush  1 A   Yes, Violet Johnson.  2 Q   Now, do you remember any of the other names of the  3 heavenly children?  4 A   Laa goot.  5 THE TRANSLATOR: It's 1543.  6 MR. RUSH:  7 Q   What does that mean in English?  8 A   Heart.  9 Q   That means heart?  10 A   Heart, yes.  11 THE COURT:  Heart or heartbeat?  12 MR. RUSH:  13 Q   What does it mean in English?  You say it means heart?  14 A   Yes.  15 Q   And who holds that name, Mr. Muldoe?  16 A   I just can't recall right now.  17 Q   Is that Shirley Muldoe?  18 A   Shirley, yes.  19 Q   And do you recall the other names of the heavenly  20 children?  21 A   Not all of them, but I don't -- I can't recall them  22 just right offhand.  23 Q   Okay.  All right.  Now, we've just talked about the  24 six figures representing the six heavenly children.  25 A   Uh-huh.  26 Q   And you have said that they come from these, I think  27 the Skaawo'o adaawk?  28 A   Yes.  29 Q   Is there an adaawk that relates to Midig'em Gyamk?  30 A   Yes.  31 Q   Can you say where the crest of Madig'em Gyamk, where  32 does that originate from?  33 A   It's originally from the house of Gitludahl.  34 Q   And can you tell me about how it came to -- how it  35 came to be a crest, how it was made to be a crest by  36 the house of Gitludahl?  37 THE COURT:  I'm sorry, Mr. Grant, there is a matter I have to  38 look after, and can we pursue that when we adjourn  39 please.  Thank you.  40 THE REGISTRAR: Order in Court.  41  42 (PROCEEDINGS ADJOURNED FOR A SHORT RECESS)  43  44  45  46  47 6106  Proceedings  1  2 I HEREBY CERTIFY THE FOREGOING TO  3 BE A TRUE AND ACCURATE TRANSCRIPT  4 OF THE PROCEEDINGS HEREIN TO THE  5 BEST OF MY SKILL AND ABILITY.  6  7  8 LORI OXLEY  9 OFFICIAL REPORTER  10 UNITED REPORTING SERVICE LTD.  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47 6107  P. Muldoe (For Plaintiffs)  In Chief by Mr. Rush  1 (Proceedings resumed following short recess)  2  3 EXAMINATION IN CHIEF BY MR. RUSH:  (Continued)  4  5 THE COURT:  Mr. Rush?  6 MR. RUSH: Thank you.  7 Q Mr. Muldoe, I was asking you about the Midig'em Gyamk  8 adaawk, and can you tell the court what the -- where  9 the crest of Midig'em Gyamk originated from?  10 A It originated from Xsu gwin ya'a.  11 Q The Xsu gwin ya'a?  12 A At the Salmon River across from Kispiox.  13 MR. RUSH: Maybe we will just get a spelling for that.  14 THE COURT:  Across from Kispiox?  15 MR. RUSH: Yes.  16 THE TRANSLATOR:  X-S-U, G-W-I-N, Y-A-'A.  17 MR. RUSH:  18 Q What happened there, Mr. Muldoe?  What occurred there  19 that led to the crest being taken by the House of  20 Gitludahl?  21 A In the beginning, some way or the other, when this --  22 someone was out there, and they saw a bear come down  23 the river, I think it is, and they saw the bright sun  24 around his neck so they killed him.  25 Q When they killed him, did they then --  26 A They handed over to the lady who was in the House of  27 Gitludahl.  28 Q And did they hand it over as a crest?  29 A Yes.  30 Q And did that happen at the river that you have said,  31 the Salmon River?  32 A Yes.  33 Q I think you said Xsu gwin ya'a, it's the same place?  34 A Yes.  35 Q And that's across from Kispiox?  36 A Yes.  37 Q Now, what feasts -- do you wear this blanket at the  38 feasts?  Do you wear the blanket that is shown in the  39 photograph --  40 A Yes.  41 Q Do you wear that at the feast?  42 A Yes.  43 Q And what -- is that at a feast where names are passed,  44 is that the kind of feast where you wear the blanket?  45 A It's kind of a feast when -- if anyone pass on before  46 you contribute the money, you have to put that blanket  47 on. 610?  P. Muldoe (For Plaintiffs)  In Chief by Mr. Rush  1 Q   Is this called a succession feast?  2 A   Yes.  3 Q   Now, do you have to, Mr. Muldoe, do you have to do  4 things to keep the blanket clean?  5 A   Yes.  6 Q   What happens if you don't keep it clean?  7 A  Well, you can't put up a feast.  8 Q   And what situation, what would be the situations where  9 you would have to put up a feast?  10 A  Well, after you give -- the blanket is given to you  11 and to wear that blanket, and you are supposed to keep  12 it clean.  And if you get into a fight or anything  13 like that, and blood over your body, or anything like  14 that, or you fall into a river or into the ocean, and  15 that's why you have to keep it clean, is to put up a  16 feast.  If you get into a fight, and they have to put  17 up so much money again in order to get yourself into  18 position to have that blanket clean.  And what they  19 call that is Guuxs ghagal gimxs.  20 A  And if you fall into the water that's called Guuxs  21 tso'oxsxw, that's the same thing.  But you have to  22 keep -- that's a tradition of a chief.  23 Q   Guuxs tso'oxsxw.  I am not sure we have that.  24 THE COURT:  1508, is that the fight or the fall in the river?  25 MR. RUSH:  That's the former, the feast that results if you —  26 you have been in an altercation.  27 Q   Now, if you fall in the water, that's called Guuxs  28 tso'oxsxw?  29 A   Yes.  30 Q   But it's the same kind of thing?  31 A   Yes.  32 THE TRANSLATOR:  G-U-U-X-S, T-S-O-', O-X-S-X-W.  33 MR. RUSH:  Thank you.  34 Q   Why do you put up the feast when you fall in the  35 water?  36 A   You mean why do you have to put up the feast when  37 this —  38 Q   Yes.  39 A   Because they have -- have to put up the feast so that  40 everybody, show the chiefs, show the chiefs that they  41 came back into the right position again, that they  42 have this blanket clean.  43 Q   So, it's like cleaning the blanket?  44 A   Cleaning the blanket, and clean himself too as well.  45 Q   Okay.  Have you put up such a feast yourself?  46 A   Yes.  47 Q   And when did you put that up? 6109  1  A  2  3  Q  4  A  5  Q  6  A  7  Q  8  A  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  Q  17  18  A  19  Q  20  21  22  23  A  24  Q  25  A  26  A  27  Q  28  2 9 THE  COUR1  30  31  (  32  33 MR.  RUSH  34  Q  35  36  37  38  39  A  40  Q  41  A  42  Q  43  A  44  Q  45  A  46  Q  47  P. Muldoe (For Plaintiffs)  In Chief by Mr. Rush  I don't remember the year but I had a feast,  somewhere --  Was it recently?  Yes.  Can you say how many years ago?  About four or five years ago, something like that.  And what happened that you had to put up such a feast?  Well, I fell in the ocean at Skidegate while still in  commercial fishing, the reason I have to put up this  feast, this feast has never been put up before, they  do it in the early days but I wanted to show the  younger generation how it's done.  So I have to put up  that feast and just to show everybody and everybody is  glad I put up that feast, because that brought  something back for the new generation to see it.  And when you did that, that cleansed your blanket and  yourself?  Yes.  Now, this blanket that's shown in the photograph,  that's in front of you, Mr. Muldoe, are there other  people from the house of Gitludahl that are entitled  to wear the blanket?  Yes.  Who else can wear it?  Elsie Morrison, Waiget, by the Indian name.  Neil Sterritt junior and Alvin Waiget, and myself.  Okay.  May that be the next exhibit, please?  :  Yes.  That will be Exhibit 472  (EXHIBIT 472:  PHOTOCOPY OF PHOTOGRAPH OF BLANKET)  Now, I would like you now to look at the next  photograph or photocopy of a photograph, which is  found at tab 3, that's a photograph of a totem pole.  Do you recognize the totem pole that's in the right  foreground?  Yes.  Whose pole is that?  That's a pole of Gitludahl.  Where is it located?  Where is it?  At Kispiox Village.  And is that pole standing today?  Yes.  Is this the pole that you said earlier was erected in  1971? 6110  1  A  2  Q  3  4  5  A  6  7  Q  8  A  9  Q  10  A  11 THE  COURT  12 MR.  RUSH:  13  Q  14  A  15  16  17  Q  18  19  A  20  Q  21  22  A  23  Q  24  A  25  26  27  Q  28  29  30  A  31  Q  32  A  33  34  35  36  Q  37  A  38  Q  39  A  40  Q  41  A  42  Q  43  A  44  45  Q  46  A  4 7 MR.  RUSH:  P. Muldoe (For Plaintiffs)  In Chief by Mr. Rush  Yes.  And can you tell his lordship what crests there are on  the pole, if you just look at the pole, beginning at  the bottom?  Yes.  The crests on the bottom, the crest on the top,  middle part of it, is Midig'em Gyamk.  Is this the Midig'em Gyamk, the crest in the middle?  In the middle.  Is that the -- is this it here?  Yes.  :  The dark circle?  Yes, with the head in the middle.  Mr. Muldoe, what's at the bottom of the pole?  It's another crest of Gitludahl, they call that Wii  ax.  It looks like little children, but they call it  Wii ax.  It's, in other words, they call it fern root.  Fern roots?  And are those the -- are those the little  children?  Yes.  And where are the fern roots on the -- with the  children?  In the bottom part.  What's above the little figures in the fern roots?  And all this little human figure on the top and some,  I believe some on the side, the top and above the  Midig'em Gyamk is those heavenly children.  And there appear to be two bird-like figures, one at  the very top and one just above the figures at the  bottom.  Yes.  What are they?  There is two, supposed to be two owls, it was supposed  to be a white owl, but I just can't recall what the  name of them is.  They all have names but I can't  recall the name on that.  Which one is the white owl, can you tell?  Both of them.  Both are the white owl.  Okay.  And in Indian word they call it Maas Gutginuxw.  That's the name of the white owl?  Yes.  Maas Gutginuxw?  Yes.  In other words, they call it, sort of, a  princess of the owl.  Princess of the owl?  Yes.  Because you don't see very many white owls.  Please, could you spell -- 6111  P. Muldoe (For Plaintiffs)  In Chief by Mr. Rush  1 THE TRANSLATOR:  M-A-A-S, G-U-T-G-I-N-U-X-W.  2 THE COURT:  Thank you.  3 MR. RUSH:   Now, I wonder if that could be the next exhibit,  4 please.  5 THE REGISTRAR:  Exhibit 473, tab 3.  6  7        (EXHIBIT 473:  PHOTOCOPY OF PHOTOGRAPH OF TOTEM POLES)  8  9 MR. RUSH:  10 Q   Now, I want to return to the feast where you took the  11 name Gitludahl for a moment, Mr. Muldoe.  Did you  12 perform a Nax nox at that feast?  13 A   Yes.  14 Q   What did you do?  15 A  Well, the Nax nox I used is the name, it was Gun  16 wiioodintxw.  That's an Indian word.  17 Q   That's the name of the Nax nox?  18 A   Yes.  19 Q   And can you tell us how you performed it?  We will  20 just get the spelling of that in a moment.  21 A  Well, they can go along like the people are sitting  22 here and go along to every head chief, you have to ask  23 them if he loves you or something like that.  24 Q   Okay.  And are you, when you do that, are you paid  25 money?  26 A   They give you a few dollars or anything like that.  27 Q   And when you went along doing that, were there people  28 with you that assisted you?  29 A   Yes.  30 Q   Who were they?  31 A   That's some of the -- someone from Cariboo -- not  32 Cariboo, Lax Gibuu clan.  It's the Wolf Clan.  33 Q   Are they from your father's side?  34 A   Yes.  35 Q   Okay.  Do you have that spelling for that?  36 THE TRANSLATOR:  G-U-N, —  37 MS. KOENIGSBERG:  Could the speller speak up a bit?  I am not  38 able to catch it all.  39 THE TRANSLATOR:  G-U-N, W-I-I-O-O-D-I-N-T-X-W.  40 THE COURT:  Thank you.  Did you get it Miss Koenigsberg?  41 MR. RUSH:  42 Q   At the feast where you took the name, Mr. Muldoe, did  43 you speak at the feast, when you took Gitludahl?  44 A   Yes.  45 Q   And what did you say at that feast?  What did you tell  46 the people who had been invited to the feast?  47 A  Well, they have to split up and thank the people that 6112  P. Muldoe (For Plaintiffs)  In Chief by Mr. Rush  1 all attended at the place during the feast and also  2 some of the chiefs that attended at the feasts,  3 thanked them for attending the feast as a witness.  4 Q   Well did you speak about Gitludahl's territory?  5 A   Yes.  6 Q   And what territory did you speak about?  7 A   Speak about some territory around Kispiox, and the  8 fishing site at Xsim max magay and up along Naa Dax  9 De'et.  10 MR. RUSH:  Naa Dax De'et.  It was the name he gave very early.  11 THE TRANSLATOR:  It's 1539.  12 MR. RUSH:  13 Q   And do you remember what you said at the feast about  14 the territories and the fishing sites?  15 A   Yes.  16 Q   Can you just tell us what you said?  17 A  Well, in that, on the fishing site, I was telling the  18 people that any one of our family could use the  19 fishing site, Wii Seeks family, Wii gyet, and Luu  20 goo'mx, it is also Gitludahl.  And all the children  21 can use that, all the grandchildren can use the  22 fishing hole as well.  Or any of the brother-in-law or  23 the sister-in-law, as long as they are in the family.  24 Q   And what did you say about the other territory?  25 Territories?  26 A   It goes the same way for the hunting territory and the  27 trapping.  Any one of the family from Wii Seeks or Wii  28 gyet, they could also use the same territory as  29 Gitludahl and also the family from Gitludahl can go on  30 to Wii Seeks territory and Wii gyet's territory as  31 well.  Even with all their children, or the  32 grandchildren or their brother-in-law.  33 Q   And did you say anything about Naa Dax De'et?  34 A   Yes.  35 Q   About -- did you say anything in -- specifically about  36 Naa Dax De'et, the twin lakes?  37 A   Yes.  38 Q   What did you say about that?  39 A  Well, after Morris pass on after that feast, I have  40 the full authority to look after the whole thing and  41 that authority they send anyone out there who wish to  42 trap there or wish to hunt there or any one of our  43 family they can go in any time they want to trap and  44 they can trap there.  As long as they ask and have  45 permission or to hunt or to trap there.  46 Q   Did other members of the house speak?  47 A   Yes. 6113  1  Q  2  A  3  4  Q  5  A  6  7  Q  8  A  9  Q  10  A  11  12  Q  13  A  14  Q  15  A  16  17  Q  18  19  A  20  Q  21  A  22  Q  23  24  A  25  Q  26  27  A  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  Q  41  42  A  43  Q  44  45  A  46  Q  47  A  P. Muldoe (For Plaintiffs)  In Chief by Mr. Rush  Who else spoke?  Alvin Weget spoke on that and myself, and I believe  Gwii yeehl spoke, Chris Skulsh.  And also --  Gwii yeehl is 19 on the list, my lord.  And also I believe Mary Johnson spoke in there and  Stanley Williams from Kitwanga.  Now, --  Gwis gyen.  Yes.  All right.  Who spoke from the Lax Gibuu?  Well all the head chiefs of Lax Gibuu spoke from each  table, like Wii gak, senior, Neil.  Neil Sterritt senior?  Yes.  And Spookw.  That's Steve Robinson?  Yes, Steve Robinson.  And Mary McKenzie, Gyolugyet,  and Walter and Delgamuukw and Luus.  And at that time did Albert Tait hold the name of  Delgamuukw?  Yes.  And Luus was Jeff Harris senior?  Jeff Harris senior.  Now, did one person from each of the tables speak at  the feast?  Yes, one person from each of the table.  And can you tell us generally what the chiefs said  when they spoke?  Well, as they are sitting there and they witness  everything what is done during the feast and they see  everything what's done and if we do it properly and do  it the right way and then we speak about what's to be  done.  And that's what all the chiefs are there to be  witness the feast.  And if we -- if I do anything  wrong or give anything out what is not belong to me or  what doesn't belong to Gitludahl or in any territory,  one of the chiefs is going to stand up and speak up  and say that I am doing the right thing.  If  everything is doing the right thing they say they glad  they attended and witness the feast and so on like  that.  And they all satisfied with what they get.  Okay.  And were they satisfied at the feast that  things were done properly?  Yes.  Has there been a headstone feast held for Moses  Morrison yet?  Yes.  There has?  Yes, we have it. 6114  P. Muldoe (For Plaintiffs)  In Chief by Mr. Rush  1 Q   Okay.  Maybe I will frame it another way.  Is the  2 house going to hold a headstone feast?  3 A   Yes.  4 Q   When are they going to hold it?  5 A   Sometimes towards the end of this month, whenever I am  6 free.  7 Q   Has this been planned for a while?  8 A   Yes.  9 Q   And what will happen at the headstone feast, what will  10 you do there?  11 A  Well, during this feast I could give out any territory  12 that what I want to give out, and also the fishing  13 site and also maybe some name that will come into that  14 too.  15 Q   Will there be some names passed there?  16 A   Yeah.  17 Q   Will you raise a headstone for Moses?  18 A   Yes.  19 Q   Mr. Muldoe, I am going to ask you now to turn to the  20 next tab, which is at tab 4, and I am going to ask you  21 to look at this document, which is the genealogy of  22 Gitludahl.  Now, you have reviewed this with me, you  23 went over this genealogy with me?  24 A   Yes.  25 Q   And can you identify all the names that are on this  26 genealogy?  27 A   Yes.  28 Q   And you know the relationship of the people to each  29 other?  30 A   Yes.  31 Q   And I particularly want to ask you about Nox ye'el,  32 and Nox ye'el, if I can just turn over the second  33 page, you see Nox ye'el at the top?  34 A   Yeah.  Nox ye' el.  35 MR. RUSH:  Y-E-E-L.  36 THE TRANSLATOR:  It's 1528.  37 MR. RUSH:  Yes.  Thank you.  38 Q   Now, Mr. Muldoe, was Nox ye'el, was she related to  39 Martha Morrison?  40 A   Yes.  41 Q   And do you know what the relationship was?  42 A   Hm-hmm.  43 Q   How were they related?  Just to --  44 A  Where is Martha Morrison?  45 Q   Here is Martha, Martha Morrison is here.  But my  46 question is:  Do you know of a relationship between  47 Martha and Nox ye'el? 6115  1  A  2  3  Q  4  A  5  Q  6  A  7  MR.  RUSH:  8  9  10  Q  11  12  13  A  14  MR.  RUSH:  15  16  17  THE  INTER  18  Q  19  THE  COURT  20  21  22  MR.  RUSH:  23  24  25  THE  COURT  26  MR.  RUSH:  27  Q  28  29  30  A  31  Q  32  33  34  A  35  Q  36  A  37  Q  38  39  40  A  41  Q  42  A  43  Q  44  A  45  Q  46  A  47  Q  P. Muldoe (For Plaintiffs)  In Chief by Mr. Rush  I believe I know Martha Morrison, but I think she died  before my time.  My question --  Richard Morrison's wife.  Richard Morrison's wife?  Yes.  I wonder if you could translate my question, Mrs.  Sampson.  Could you translate what Mr. Muldoe is  saying?  Mr. Muldoe, it doesn't appear from the genealogy that  there is a line connecting the two, but just setting  aside the genealogy for a moment --  Pull it apart.  Mrs. Sampson, I wonder, without the genealogy, Mr.  Muldoe, do you know of a relationship, how Nox ye'el  and Martha Morrison or related?  URETER:  I don't know.  All right.  :  Well, he has told me, has he not, that he thinks Nox  ye'el was Richard Morrison's wife?  Isn't that what he  said?  No, no, I think he said that he knew that Martha  Morrison was married to Richard Morrison, which is as  it's shown on the genealogy.  :  All right.  Now, Mr. Muldoe, I just wanted to show you here, it  shows that Moses Morrison was born in 1850 -- excuse  me, 1893, and he passed on in 1985.  Hm-hmm.  And below that -- below Moses Morrison there is a  dotted line, do you see the dotted line that runs all  the way across the genealogy?  Yeah.  That is an adoption line, is it?  Yes.  And you were adopted into that house and it shows a  number of other people who were adopted into the  house, Emma Tait, do you see Emma's name there?  Yes.  And Alvin Weget?  Yes.  And Gordon Johnson?  Yes.  And Violet Johnson?  Yeah.  And Cheryl Stewart? 6116  1  A  2  Q  3  A  4  Q  5  A  6  Q  7  A  8  Q  9  10  A  11  Q  12  A  13  Q  14  A  15  Q  16  A  17  Q  18  A  19  Q  20  A  21  Q  22  23  A  24  25  Q  26  27  A  28  Q  29  30  A  31  32  33  34  35  36  Q  37  A  38  Q  39  A  40  Q  41  42  43  A  44  45  46  47  Q  P. Muldoe (For Plaintiffs)  In Chief by Mr. Rush  Yeah.  And Colette Johnson?  Yes.  And Ralph Michell?  Yes.  And Neil John Sterritt?  Yes.  Now, if you just go to the next page, it also shows  that Fern Weget?  Yes.  That's Fern Stevens, right?  And Shirley Sterritt?  Yes.  They were all adopted into the house of Gitludahl?  Yes.  Were they adopted by Moses?  Yes.  And were they adopted before Moses passed on?  Yes.  And did they constitute the house of Gitludahl?  Yes.  Now, why did Moses adopt all of these people into the  house, Mr. Muldoe?  Well, he adopted those because they were all sort of  related together, all Gisgaast Clan.  Was Moses the last of the people in the House of  Gitludahl that was related?  Yes, yes.  Okay.  If Moses had not adopted the people, would the  house have -- would the house have had no successors?  Yes.  Some of these people, some of these people are  adopted before Moses passed on and I believe most of  them are -- Mary Johnson was on that too, but  sometimes we happened to be there but she was the one  that adopted them into the Moses house.  And Fern, she  was adopted after Moses passed on.  Fern adopted after Moses passed on?  Yes.  Adopted by you?  Yes.  When Ralph Michell took the name of Wii Seeks in  December of, December 21st, 1985, did he -- was he  then under Wii gyet?  Well, before Ralph took the name of Wii Seeks he was  adopted into Gitludahl's House, before that, by the  name of  -- I forgot the name now.  Aa'lagat.  Alaaxgit, cranky.  Cranky?  I am not sure that's fitting. 6117  1  THE  COURT  2  MR.  RUSH:  3  THE  COURT  4  5  A  6  THE  INTER  7  MR.  RUSH:  8  THE  TRANS  9  MR.  RUSH:  10  Q  11  12  A  13  14  15  16  17  18  Q  19  A  20  Q  21  A  22  Q  23  THE  COURT  24  25  26  27  MR.  RUSH:  28  Q  29  30  31  32  33  A  34  Q  35  A  36  Q  37  38  A  39  Q  40  41  42  43  A  44  Q  45  46  47  A  P. Muldoe (For Plaintiffs)  In Chief by Mr. Rush  :  I thought only judges said that.  This is spelled -- how is that spelled?  :  What does the diagonal line through the triangle  mean?  It means that he has moved out of the house.  URETER:   Adopted.  Adopted out.  IATOR:  A-L-A-A-X-G-I-T.  Now, when Ralph took the name of Wii Seeks, did he  then go -- what happened then?  When he took the name of Wii Seeks, it was, they  passed the name, it was me that passed the name on to  Ralph, it was me that had the name of Wii Seeks and I  passed it on to Ralph when I took the name of  Gitludahl and from there on Ralph was sitting at Wii  gyet's table.  He then was under Wii gyet?  Yes.  But that was in, December 21st, '85?  Yeah.  Now, -- can that be the next exhibit please.  :  Yes.  (EXHIBIT 474:  WILP'S GITLUDAHL GENEALOGY)  I would like to show you the next genealogy on this,  in this book.  I will just take that, Mr. Muldoe, and  I will put it back in here.  And this is the genealogy  of Wilps Wii gyet.  Now, Mr. Muldoe, you have reviewed  this genealogy with me?  Yes.  And you can identify the names --  Yes.  -- and the relationships of the people on this  genealogy?  Yes.  And there are -- I want to ask you about certain of  the names on this genealogy, if I may.  I would first  like to direct your attention to the second page, do  you see the name Pat Kennedy and Charlie Hillis?  Yes.  Now, that shows a dotted line, is that an adoption  line?  Your answer is yes?  Mr. Muldoe, is that an  adoption line?  Yes. 611?  1  Q  2  A  3  4  Q  5  6  A  7  Q  8  A  9  Q  10  A  11  Q  12  13  A  14  Q  15  A  16  Q  17  A  18  19  Q  20  A  21  Q  22  A  23  Q  24  25  26  A  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  Q  34  A  35  Q  36  A  37  Q  38  39  A  40  Q  41  42  43  44  45  46  A  47  Q  P. Muldoe (For Plaintiffs)  In Chief by Mr. Rush  Was Pat Kennedy adopted into the house?  Ed Martin?  Oh, yes, Pat Kennedy, yes, adopted into  the house.  Now, there are -- her children, it shows there are two  children, Janice and Richard?  Yes.  Now, were those her natural children?  Yes.  And were they also adopted into the house?  Yes.  Now, there are two other children, Martin Hillis and  Mercy Hillis?  Yes.  Now there shows a dotted line there --  Yes.  Can you explain why that's a dotted line?  Yes.  There is two other children they adopted, they  adopted, I believe, on a white act, is it?  Under the non-Indian system?  Yes, non-Indian.  Have they been adopted into the house of Waiget?  No.  Could they be adopted into the house?  Is it possible  that at some future date they could be brought into  the house?  If they, if Pat really adopted the children to be his  own for the rest of their life, from there on that  could be decided they could be adopted into  Gitludahl's house.  And if they only just looking  after them, if they going to grow up and they can send  them out again, that way they cannot adopt them into  the house.  And —  That is if they are just the foster children.  If they are just the foster children?  Yes.  So if they stay for a longer period of time with Pat  and Charlie they could be adopted into the house?  Yes.  Now, there is another part of the genealogy which I  would like you to clarify for me, and it's over to  page, looks to be page five, if you could just --  there is four and one more, Mr. Muldoe, do you see in  the bottom right hand corner there is a Beverly, it  looks to be Louie, with the name of Guux?  Yes.  What is that, what is Beverly's, what is Beverly's 6119  P. Muldoe (For Plaintiffs)  In Chief by Mr. Rush  maiden name or name before marriage?  Beverly Louie, is it?  I think it is.  Does she go by another name?  Well, now she is married to Anderson.  Her name now is Beverly Anderson?  Yes.  And although it's difficult to see, there appears to  be a son or a daughter, if you just turn the page,  down here, is this a child of Beverly's?  The last  name appears to be Reese?  Matthew Reese.  It's Matthew Reese, is it?  And, Matthew Reese appears  to have a name that's cut off there, do you know that?  Yes.  What's that name?  The Indian name?  Yes, the Indian name?  Ganaa'm Sitax.  Ganaa'm Sitax.  All right.  Thank you.  If you piece the two pages together, my lord, you can  see, put that name together, I think there may be one  letter that's been dropped on the photocopying.  24 THE TRANSLATOR:  It's spelled G-A-N-A-A'M, S-I-T-A-X.  25 MR. RUSH:  Thank you.  What does that mean in English, Ganaa'm Sitax?  It means in English, it means in English Frog of the  Lake stream.  Frog of the lake stream?  Yeah.  Thank you.  Now, earlier you mentioned that Guux  woo'otxw was married to your sister Flossie, and I  just wanted to direct you to this part of the -- it  shows the name of your sister Flossie, she is passed  on?  Yes.  All right.  And you made reference earlier, Mr.  Muldoe, to another of your sisters, Mary Muldoe, do  you see her?  Yes, she has passed on.  Okay.  And there is a third sister, Elsie Muldoe?  Yes.  Is her name now Elsie Morrison?  Yes.  She is your sister?  Yes.  Is she younger or older than you?  1  2  A  3  Q  4  A  5  Q  6  A  7  Q  8  9  10  11  A  12  Q  13  14  A  15  Q  16  A  17  Q  18  A  19  Q  2 0 MR.  RUSH  21  Q  22  23  26  Q  27  A  28  29  Q  30  A  31  Q  32  33  34  35  36  A  37  Q  38  39  40  A  41  Q  42  A  43  Q  44  A  45  Q  46  A  47  Q 6120  1  A  2  Q  3  A  4  Q  5  6  7  A  8  Q  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  A  17  THE  COURT  18  MR.  RUSH:  19  20  THE  COURT  21  MR.  RUSH:  22  Q  23  24  25  A  26  Q  27  28  29  30  31  A  32  Q  33  34  A  35  Q  36  37  A  38  THE  COURT  39  A  40  MR.  RUSH:  41  THE  COURT  42  MR.  RUSH:  43  THE  COURT  44  MR.  RUSH:  45  Q  46  47  P. Muldoe (For Plaintiffs)  In Chief by Mr. Rush  She is older than I am.  Older than you are?  Yeah.  And she holds the name of Waiget, W-A-I-G-E-T, my  lord.  And then another of your sisters, Laura Muldoe,  she has passed on?  She is passed on.  Okay.  All right.  And it shows your position on the  genealogy.  Now, just direct you to another portion of the  genealogy, Mr. Muldoe, if you look, it's about the  second page from the back, my lord.  Yes, it looks  like it's page eight, my copy it's taken off.  The  name here, Mr. Muldoe, that you see part of it is cut  off, and is that David MacPherson?  Yes.  :  I am sorry, I haven't found that.  Page eight?  Yes, it's the third from the back.  And there is,  it's, again, partly obscured by the photocopying.  :  David MacPherson.  David MacPherson, yes.  I also want to direct you to the second page from the  back, which appears to be page nine, Sheila Joseph,  who is the daughter of Helen and Alfred Joseph?  Yes.  It shows that there are two children there and I  wonder, Mr. Muldoe, are you aware if they have other  children?  It shows two children, Francine and  Matthew, are there other children that they have that  you know about?  Yes.  Do you know their names?  The names of the two other  children of Sheila Joseph?  Yes.  Frances Joseph and Matthew Joseph.  Yes.  In addition to Frances and Matthew, do they have  other children?  No, not that I know of.  :  I haven't found those, Mr. Rush.  You mean Alvin Joseph?  The second to last page.  :  All right.  You will see Alfred and then Sheila --  :  Yes.  Mr. Muldoe, perhaps you misunderstood me.  I didn't  mean children of Alfred, but Sheila Joseph's children,  are there other children other than the two that are 6121  P. Muldoe (For Plaintiffs)  In Chief by Mr. Rush  1 shown on the genealogy that you know of?  2 A   I only know two of them.  3 Q   All right.  Thank you.  That's fine.  4 Now, just one other thing, on page nine, my lord,  5 second to the end, I just want to show you something  6 on the -- Mr. Muldoe, there is a person that's  7 indicated in the top right portion of the genealogy on  8 page nine as Martha Waiget, I understand that you  9 don't know that person?  Or do you know that person?  10 A   I know her but she passed on a long time ago.  11 Q   Okay.  And there is also a person on page ten called  12 James Guux woo'otxw, did you know James Guux woo'otxw?  13 A   That was way before my time I think.  14 Q   Okay.  Thank you.  15 My lord in respect of both of those people, James  16 Morrison spoke to those two individuals.  17 THE TRANSLATOR:  Guux woo'otxw is 1527.  18 THE COURT:  Guux woo'otxw is 1597?  19 THE TRANSLATOR:  27.  20 MR. RUSH:  I am going to ask that this be marked as an exhibit.  21 MR. MACKENZIE:  Excuse me, my lord, does my friend have a  22 transcript reference to James Morrison's reference to  23 James Guux woo'otxw?  24 MR. RUSH:  I don't have it at my fingertips but I can get it for  2 5 you.  26 THE REGISTRAR:  Exhibit 475.  27  28 (EXHIBIT 475:  GENEALOGY OF WILPS, WII GYET, CLAN  2 9 GISGAAST)  30  31 THE COURT:  Shall we adjourn for lunch, Mr. Rush?  32 MR. RUSH:  Yes, my lord.  33  34       (Proceedings adjourned for lunch)  35  36  37  38  39  40 I hereby certify the foregoing to be  41 a true and accurate transcript of the  42 proceedings herein to the best of my  43 skill and ability.  44  45  46  47 Wilf Roy 6122  P. Muldoe (For Plaintiffs)  In Chief by Mr. Rush  1 Official Reporter  2  3 1  2 (PROCEEDINGS RECOMMENCED AFTER LUNCHEON RECESS)  3  4 THE REGISTRAR:  Order in court.  Calling Delgamuukw versus Her  5 Majesty the Queen at bar, My Lord.  6 THE COURT:  Mr. Rush.  Mr. Rush, may I revert for a moment to  7 the question of the view, and just say I was able to  8 reach the commissioner, and there is some possibility,  9 which is being examined, as to -- some possibility  10 that the commissioner would pay for my expenses,  11 including helicopters, as required, if I certified  12 that it was part of the judicial function.  And if  13 there is no extra cost for other passengers, then  14 there would be no problem with that.  The commissioner  15 would not pay for the cost of transporting  16 non-judicial people around, but there would be no  17 problem if there was no additional cost.  I don't know  18 whether these machines rent out on the basis of seats  19 occupied or hours used.  20 MR. RUSH:  I think hours used.  21 THE COURT:  Yes.  Which would leave the parties to their own  22 devices for -- by which on one theory could be divided  23 three ways, but that is for you people to talk about.  24 And that's not something I could get into, but the  25 only access I have to funding is, as I say, under the  26 Judges' Act, and it's pretty limited jurisdiction to  27 pay for judicial expenses.  Can I leave that with you?  28 MR. RUSH:  Yes, you can.  Thank you very much, My Lord, for  29 checking so quickly.  It will help us, I think,  30 hopefully by tomorrow.  31 THE COURT:  All right.  Thank you.  32 MR. RUSH:  33 Q   Now, Mr. Muldoe, I am going to ask you about the  34 seating of Gitludahl at the feast.  Where there is a  35 feast hosted by Lax Gibuu at Kispiox Village, what  36 table does Gitludahl sit at?  37 A  At the table at the middle of the building there.  38 Q   Okay.  39 A   On the head -- right at the head -- right on the  40 right-hand side of Geel.  Geel is in the middle,  41 Gitludahl is on the left, and Gwiiyeehl on the left  42 and Gitludahl on the right.  43 Q   Geel is at the head of that table, is he?  44 A   Yes.  45 Q   All right.  Who sits beside Gitludahl on Gitludahl's  46 right?  47 A   Johnny Heit.  I forget his name. 6123  1  Q  2  A  3  4  5  Q  6  A  7  Q  8  A  9  Q  10  A  11  Q  12  A  13  Q  14  15  A  16  Q  17  A  18  Q  19  A  20  Q  21  A  22  Q  23  A  24  Q  25  26  A  27  Q  28  A  29  Q  30  A  31  A  32  Q  33  34  A  35  36  Q  37  38  A  39  Q  40  A  41  Q  42  43  44  45  46  A  47  Q  P. Muldoe (For Plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. rush  Now, who sits beside Gwiiyeehl on Gwiiyeehl's left?  I just don't remember this.  I'm not too familiar with  the table yet, but that's been on there for a little  while.  How long have you been on that table?  Ever since when was it, '70, '71.  Since '71 or when you took Gitludahl in '85?  Yes.  When you took Gitludahl?  Yes.  That was in '85?  '85 — oh, yes, '85.  All right.  Now, can you tell me, before you took  Gitludahl you sat at Wiigyet's table, did you?  Yes.  Who sat at the head of the table?  Wiigyet.  And where did Wii seeks sit?  On the right-hand side.  And who sat on the left-hand side?  Waiget.  That's Waiget.  That's Elsie Morrison?  Elsie Morrison, yes.  W-a-i.  I think earlier you mentioned that you held  the name of Luu goo'mx?  Yes.  And that name is held by Eric McPherson today?  Yes.  What table does he sit at?  He sits on Wiigyet's table.  Okay.  And is that -- which side of the table is that on?  Do  you recall?  Sitting on the right-hand side after so many seat from  Wii seeks.  Now, after you took the name of Gitludahl you changed  tables to sit at Geel's table?  Yes.  All right.  And that's where you are now?  Yes.  Okay.  Now, let me ask you about another subject, Mr.  Muldoe.  In the Amended Statement of Claim that was  filed last May the 11th, 1987 it says that you were  bringing this action on behalf of Gitludahl and  Wiigyet.  Yes.  Now, can you explain the relationship between 6124  1  2  A  3  THE  COURT  4  MR.  RUSH:  5  A  6  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  Q  14  15  16  A  17  18  19  20  Q  21  A  22  23  THE  COURT  24  MR.  RUSH:  25  THE  COURT  26  27  28  MR.  RUSH:  29  Q  30  31  THE  COURT  32  MR.  RUSH:  33  Q  34  A  35  Q  36  A  37  Q  38  39  A  40  Q  41  42  A  43  Q  44  A  45  MR.  RUSH:  46  THE  COURT  47  P. Muldoe (For Plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. rush  Gitludahl's house and Luu goo'mx's house?  Yes.  :   I'm sure that's spelled W-i-i --  G-y-e-t.  After Gitludahl passed on, we have a meeting between  ourselves and family and Wiigyet's family and also Wii  seek's family too, and they decided that I would be  the one that would speak for all these area -- all the  chiefs between the four of them, because the rest of  the chiefs, they all younger.  And they have to pick  me out.  More elder and more knowledgeable about the  past.  And are the -- how are Wiigyet and Wii seeks and  Waiget related now to each other and to Gitludahl?  What's their relationship?  Well, Wiigyet and Waiget, they are sisters and in the  Fireweed clan, and so are Wii seeks and their  grandfather.  And now when Gitludahl pass on, they all  join together in the one.  Okay.  They all working together, but they still have the  name of the separate houses.  :  Did you say Wii seeks is their grandfather or --  I thought he said a grandfather, but I'm not clear --  :  Well, Elsie Morrison is older than the witness, so I  I'm doubtful if her grandfather is alive.  I would  like to make sure I have that correct please.  Mr. Muldoe, what is -- your grandfather, what is your  relationship to -- well --  :  Wii seeks.  You formerly held the name of Wii seeks?  What was that please?  Before you took Gitludahl you held Wii seeks?  Yes.  All right.  And your sister, Elsie, held the name of  Waiget?  Yes.  And how were you related to Lloyd Morrison, who  also -- who held the name of Wiigyet at that time?  He's my niece, son of Elsie Morrison.  Lloyd is the son of Elsie?  Yes.  I'm not sure if that assists in that regard.  :  Not quite, because I'm not sure I heard the witness  right.  I thought he said Wiigyet and Waiget are 6125  P. Muldoe (For Plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. rush  1 sisters, but I'm not sure if that's right.  I don't  2 think it is.  3 MR. RUSH:  No, Wiigyet is Lloyd Morrison.  4 THE WITNESS:   Yes.  And Waiget is Elsie Morrison.  5 THE COURT:  All right.  And the relationship, I still don't know  6 the relationship of Wii seeks with the witness.  7 MR. RUSH:  Okay.  8 Q   The present Wii seeks, Mr. Muldoe, that's Ralph  9 Michell?  10 A   Yes.  11 Q   How is Ralph related to you?  12 A   He's my grandson.  13 THE COURT:  All right.  Fine.  Thank you.  And you are all  14 members of the Fireweed clan?  15 THE WITNESS:  Yes.  16 THE COURT:  Thank you.  17 MR. RUSH:  18 Q   Okay.  Before you -- before this court case started,  19 Mr. Muldoe, was there a meeting of the members of Wii  20 seeks, Waiget and Wiigyet?  21 A   Uh-huh.  22 Q   And of Gitludahl's house to come into this court case?  23 A   Yes.  24 Q   Okay.  And you said that it was decided that you as  25 Gitludahl should speak for Wiigyet and Wii seeks and  26 Waiget as well as Gitludahl?  27 A   Yes.  28 Q   Was there a meeting held to decide to do that?  Was  29 there a meeting of the house and family to do that?  30 A   Yes, there was a meeting in my house in the family.  31 Q   Okay.  Now, this morning you said that you began to  32 live with big Tommy Michell when you were aged 11?  33 A   Yes.  34 Q   And you said that you went trapping with big Tommy  35 Michell?  36 A   Yes.  37 Q   And you went out to Namox's territory?  38 A   Yes.  39 Q   Okay.  Can you tell the -- His Lordship just where it  40 was that you went trapping with big Tommy Michell,  41 what part of Namox's territory did you go to?  42 A  We were trapping right around Sam Goosley Lake and up  43 along the head of Buck Creek and across the mountain  44 from behind there -- I don't remember the name of the  45 lake there.  It's all in that area.  4 6 Q   Okay.  And what were you trapping for when you --  47 A   Like during the winter we trap for beaver or fisher 6126  1  2  Q  3  4  5  A  6  Q  7  A  8  9  10  Q  11  A  12  13  Q  14  A  15  Q  16  17  A  18  19  20  Q  21  A  22  Q  23  A  24  Q  25  26  A  27  28  Q  29  30  A  31  32  Q  33  A  34  Q  35  36  37  A  38  39  40  Q  41  A  42  43  Q  44  45  A  46  47  Q  P. Muldoe (For Plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. rush  or fox or coyote, anything.  And you say you were 11 when that first happened.  Were you actually trapping or were you just going  along and helping --  Just going along with them.  Okay.  Now, you said you went out with Alfred Namox.  But later on I went with Alfred Namox and just go  along with him to keep him company, help him out a  little.  How many seasons did you go with big Tommy Michell?  Went out with him about three or four times, something  like that.  And how many times with Alfred Namox?  Only went out with him about once.  Okay.  Now, did big Tommy Michell teach you things  about being in the bush?  Oh, he showed me a few things about how to hunt and  how to trap beaver and marten, things like that, but I  don't set a trap on my own.  Okay.  Did they show you how to use dead falls?  Yes.  Did they teach you that?  Oh, yes.  Okay.  And when you were at Sam Goosley where did you  stay?  Where did you camp?  We stayed at the cabin right at the foot of the Sam  Goosley Lake.  All right.  Was there more than one cabin that you  remember that you stayed at?  There was two cabin there, one from Sam Goosley Lake  over across the mountain to the next lake.  And you stayed at both of them, did you?  Yes.  And how long were you out with them when you were  trapping and hunting with big Tommy Michell and Alfred  Namox?  Well, they go out -- when they do the beaver trapping  in the spring, they stay out 'til about three weeks or  so, something like that.  And when they did the marten trapping in the fall?  We stayed 'til about November to about the end of the  season, about late March.  Okay.  Now, when you weren't at the cabins at Sam  Goosley, where were you staying?  Where did you live?  We had another cabin just up along the head of the  Buck Creek there.  Okay.  Did you return to Moricetown or to Smithers, 6127  P. Muldoe (For Plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. rush  1 wherever big Tommy Michell was living at the time?  2 A Well, they moved from one place to the other.  They  3 lived in Smithers for a couple of years, then they  4 moved onto Forestdale.  It's not that every year we go  5 back to Sam Goosley Lake.  They were doing some other  6 work besides.  7 Q Okay.  Now, I think you mentioned Gabriel Louie's  8 name?  9 A Yes.  10 Q And did you do any hunting or trapping with him?  11 A Yes, I go out with them.  12 Q Where did you go with Gabriel Louie?  13 A Well, him and Tommy Michell and Namox were all --  14 usually comes out at the same place as Sam Goosley  15 Lake.  16 Q Uh-huh.  Did Gabriel Louie teach you how to trap and  17 hunt as well?  18 A Yes.  19 Q Okay.  When you were at Sam Goosley did you see the  20 footprints?  21 A Yes.  22 Q Now, did you do -- when you got a little older and you  23 were in your teens, did you do any working?  24 A Yes.  25 Q Where did you work?  26 A I started -- when I first started working I was  27 working in Forestdale.  28 Q What did you do there?  29 A Cutting ties.  3 0 Q And who were you with?  31 A I was with Tommy Michell.  32 THE COURT: Tommy Michell?  33 THE WITNESS:   Uh-huh.  34 THE COURT:  Thank you.  35 MR. RUSH:  36 Q And when you weren't cutting ties what were you doing?  37 A Do a little trapping.  38 Q Okay.  Did you go back and forth between cutting ties  39 and trapping at --  40 A Yes.  41 Q And the trapping was always done at Sam Goosley, was  42 it?  43 A Yes.  44 Q Okay.  Did you do any hunting down there?  45 A Yes.  4 6 Q What did you hunt for?  47 A Deer and moose. 612?  1  Q  2  3  A  4  Q  5  A  6  Q  7  A  8  Q  9  A  10  11  12  Q  13  A  14  15  Q  16  17  A  18  19  Q  20  A  21  Q  22  A  23  Q  24  A  25  Q  26  A  27  Q  28  A  29  Q  30  A  31  32 THE '  TRA1  33 MR. :  RUS1  34  Q  35  36  37  A  38  39  40  41  Q  42  43  A  44  Q  45  A  46  Q  47  A  P. Muldoe (For Plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. rush  Were you taught things about how to dress the deer and  the moose?  Oh, yes.  Did you work with Gabriel Louie at all?  Yes.  What did you do with him?  Just cutting ties.  And where did you do that?  With -- he took out a tie contract with a Prince  Rupert logging company, and he held that for quite a  few years at head of the lake they call the Nadina.  And were you helping him?  I was working on my own then.  When I was about 14 I  was working on my own.  And did you continue to go back to the Namox  territory?  Whenever we got nothing to do we usually go back  there.  Okay.  And you moved back to Kispiox in 1931?  Yes.  Where -- who did you move in with?  I was staying with my sister, Elsie.  That's Elsie Morrison?  Yes.  Okay.  Who was Elsie married to?  My sister.  And what was her husband's name?  Steven Morrison.  Do you remember the Gitksan name he held at the time?  I think the Gitksan name he held at that time was  Sa uusxw.  LATOR:  S-a, u-u-s.  There is a space between.  Now, Mr. Muldoe, did you go -- what did you do after  you moved in with your sister and your brother-in-law  Steven?  Did you work or did you --  I worked around there.  He had a contract, pole  contract for taking out poles for a lumber company,  and I was working there when -- like during the  spring.  And was it that year or the next year that you first  went out to the Wiigyet territory?  It's 1932 when I went out.  And that was -- who did you go with in that year?  I went out with Joe Starr.  And how was Joe related to you?  My uncle. 6129  P. Muldoe (For Plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. rush  1 Q   And what was Joe's Gitksan chief's name, if he had  2 one?  3 A  At the time he was holding the name of Am mayt  4 lilixws.  5 Q   Did he take another name at a later time?  6 A   Pardon?  7 Q   Did he take another name later on?  8 A   Yes.  9 Q   Did Joe take another name later on?  10 A  Well, he took the name of Wiigyet later on, but I  11 don't remember what year it was.  That's when  12 Alexander White died.  Alexander White was the former  13 Wiigyet.  14 Q   So Joe Starr took the name of Wiigyet after Alexander  15 White passed on?  16 A   Yes.  17 Q   And the name that he held in 1932 was Am mayt lilixws?  18 THE TRANSLATOR: A-m, m-a-y-t, 1-i-l-i-x-w-s.  19 THE COURT:  Thank you.  2 0 MR. RUSH:  21 Q   Now, when you went out with Joe Starr, Mr. Muldoe,  22 where did you go?  23 A  We went out towards up along the Skeena right up the  24 place they call the Driftwood Creek.  Indian name they  25 call it Xsa Maxhla Gantx, around Shaladamus territory.  26 Q   Xsa Maxhla Gantx, My Lord, is 1395, and Shaladamus is  27 1397.  2 8 THE COURT: Thank you.  2 9 Q   And what does Xsa Maxhla Gantx mean in English when  30 you translate it, Mr. Muldoe?  31 A  Well, it's a place.  Going over the mountain and it's  32 sort of a valley, and Xsa Maxhla Gantx means there is  33 timber right over to the next valley.  There is no  34 open country or no rocky mountain going over it.  35 Q   Okay.  And where is Driftwood Creek in relation to  36 Kuldo, Old Kuldo?  37 A   It's about three miles above the Old Kuldo.  The name  38 of Old Kuldo is called Gowal mihl.  That in English  39 means burned over.  And that's the old village where  40 the Kuldo people used to live, and that's the same  41 place where they build that man-made canal.  42 Q   Okay.  I am going to ask you about that a little  43  44  45 Q   Okay.  When you were in there with Joe what were you  46  47  Q  Okay.  I  later.  A  Yes.  Q  Okay.  w:  doing?  A  Trapping 6130  1  Q  2  A  3  4  5  Q  6  7  A  8  9  Q  10  A  11  Q  12  13  A  14  15  Q  16  A  17  Q  18  A  19  Q  20  21  A  22  23  Q  24  25  A  26  Q  27  A  28  29  Q  30  A  31  32  Q  33  A  34  Q  35  A  36  Q  37  38  A  39  40  41  Q  42  43  A  44  Q  45  A  46  Q  47  P. Muldoe (For Plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. rush  Were you doing any hunting?  Well, they didn't have too much time to hunt there,  because we just trap and Joe took sick, so we had to  leave.  Now, did Joe tell you about the area you were passing  through?  He told me about the area and the different names of  the different places --  Okay.  -- and the creeks.  Okay.  And how old was Joe at the time that he was  telling you this?  He was approximately about over 50, between 50 or  maybe over.  Okay.  And did he show you the trapping areas?  Yes.  And did he show you where the hunting was?  Yes.  Now, what kind of animals were you trapping at that  time?  Mostly marten, fisher or mink, whatever is there, fox,  whatever is in there.  And did you stay in a cabin when you were with Joe on  that trip?   Were you in a cabin?  No, we just lived in a tent this time.  Did you get up as far as Shaladamus?  We didn't go as far as Shaladamus at the time I was up  there.  Was there a cabin at Shaladamus?  Yes, there was a cabin at Shaladamus.  Cabin looks  right on the place called Little Shaladamus by Indian.  Called Little Shaladamus?  Yes.  Little Shaladamus Creek is it?  Yes, Gwi xsi Laadamus.  Now, Pete, did you get into -- did you go up to  Shaladamus on another occasion?  Yes, a few years later I think we went up there.  I  believe it's in about 1936, I think, when I went up  there.  Okay.  And did you get up to the head of the  Shaladamus?  Yes.  What were you doing up at that time?  I was trapping.  Okay.  And is it fairly -- what's the condition of the  terrain as you go up the Shaladamus up to its head? 6131  1  2  A  3  4  5  Q  6  A  7  Q  8  A  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  Q  17  A  18  Q  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  2 6 THE  COURT  2 7 MR.  RUSH:  28  Q  29  30  31  A  32  Q  33  34  A  35  Q  36  37  A  38  Q  39  40  A  41  Q  42  A  43  A  44  Q  45  A  46  Q  47  A  P. Muldoe (For Plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. rush  What's it like up there?  Oh, it's -- when you get up to the head of Shaladamus  there is some little steep little canyon up on the old  mountain like, and you have to go over.  And how do you get up there?  You get up there by ladder.  Was there some way you got up there?  Yes.  There is steps that the old Indian people used.  The steps, before any axe or anything was ever being  used, they use branches, they cut a tree, any kind of  a tree, then they use that as the steps to go up on  the place about like that, and very steep little  canyon.  After you got the axe, they notch a tree into  about 10 inch apart, and that's the one you stand up  on, and that's what they call Xsi Laadamxws.  Did you go up there?  I seen the place but I didn't go over it.  Okay.  Now, My Lord, I am going to be referring the  witness in due course to a map which I have obtained,  and I am going to pass this up to Your Lordship.  And  at the moment I intend only to refer to what the  witness has been referring to.  And if you look in the  top north, the top and northern portion of this map is  a creek you see there as Shaladamus or Wii Xsi  Laadamus.  :  Yes, in the territory of Wiigyet.  W-i-i.  Yes, that's right.  Now, Mr. Muldoe, when you were coming back from  Shaladamus did you pass through the southern part of  the Wiigyet territory?  Yes.  Did Joe Starr point out certain places to you when you  went through there?  Yes.  Did he point out the names of creeks and mountains  and --  Yes.  Now, did he show you any other cabin sites that were  in that territory when you came back with him?  On the south?  On south part.  Yes.  There is a cabin on the place you call New Kuldo?  Yes.  That's on the right-hand side of the Skeena River.  As you are going south?  Yes. 6132  1  Q  2  A  3  4  Q  5  6  A  7  Q  8  9  10  11  12  A  13  Q  14  15  A  16  17  Q  18  19  20  A  21  Q  22  A  23  24  Q  25  A  26  Q  27  A  28  Q  29  A  30  Q  31  32  A  33  34  35  36  37  Q  38  39  40  A  41  Q  42  A  43  Q  44  A  45  Q  46  47  A  P. Muldoe (For Plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. rush  And there was --  That's about three mile -- two and-a-half or three  mile above Kuldo River.  Okay.  And was there a village site there when you  went through?  Yes.  Did you -- when you were on that trip that year with  Joe, was your trapping mainly concentrated up in the  northern part of the territory?  Is that where you did  most of it, or did you do any trapping in the southern  part?  Not that year.  Okay.  Now, did you go out -- sorry, you were going to  say --  During that time Abel Tait was doing a little trapping  on that certain part.  Okay.  Well, I am going to ask you, that's -- that  next season in 19 -- maybe in the fall of 1932 or into  1933 did you go back out to the Wiigyet territory?  I don't think so.  Not in '33 I don't think.  Do you remember where you were in '33?  I was on the -- at '33 I think I was with Silas  Johnson, and we went onto Delgam uukw's territory.  Sorry?  Not sure whether it's '33 or '34.  And was Silas Johnson, did he hold the name --  Yes.  Did he hold the name of Delgam uukw?  He hold the name of Geel.  How was it that you were on Delgam uukw's territory  that year?  Well, the old man was living there with Chris Harris  and his name was Delgam uukw, and they ask us to stay  with him, and ask us -- he was pretty old and wanted  us to go on his trapline, and we just stop there and  go on with things.  I am going to ask you about that a little later, but I  want to ask you if you went back to the south portion  of Wiigyet's territory?  Not in '33 until about '35.  Okay.  In '35 where did you go?  '35 or '36.  In 1935 something special happened to you that year?  Yes.  You got married I understand.  And you went to the  territory of Wiigyet in the south portion?  Yes. 6133  1  Q  2  A  3  Q  4  A  5  Q  6  A  7  Q  8  A  9  10  11  Q  12  13  A  14  Q  15  16  17 THE  COURT  18 MR.  RUSH:  19  20  21  22  Q  23  A  24  Q  25  A  26  Q  27  A  28  Q  29  A  30  Q  31  32  A  33  34  35  Q  36  A  37  Q  38  A  39  Q  40  A  41  Q  42  A  43  Q  44  45  A  46  Q  47  A  P. Muldoe (For Plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. rush  Where did you go?  We go right up towards Kuldo, right beyond Kuldo.  Okay.  Who were you with that year?  I was out there with Luus, Abel Tait.  Okay.  And did he have a cabin at Kuldo?  Yes.  And where were you trapping that year?  In early in the fall -- well, earlier we trapped  around Deep Canoe, around Dead Horse, or all around  that year and part of on Luus territory too.  Now, the name for -- in Gitksan the name for Deep  Canoe?  Xsi Wii Daxyan.  Xsi Wii Daxyan.  And if you look at the map and you  see Xsi Wii Daxyan south and west of the Wii Eelast  territory.  It's also marked Deep Canoe underneath.  :  I'm starting at Old Kuldo, am I?  Well, if you start at New Kuldo you come down about  an inch and-a-half and you move on diagonal from the  north to the -- sort of the northeast to the northwest  you see Deep Canoe and Sxi Wii Daxyan.  And you -- did you mention Dead Horse?  Dam Makhla Skamilsit, the Indian name of Dead Horse.  And is that south of or north of Xsi Wii Daxyan?  It's about southeast of Xsi Wii Daxyan.  Now, were you trapping in that area?  Yes.  With Abel?  Yes.  Now, how is it that Abel had -- was able to -- how was  he able to trap in there?  Well, Abel has been trapping there for just about  pretty near all his life, just on account of his  father.  Who was his father?  His father is Luu goo'mx.  And that eventually was a name that you took?  Yes.  All right.  And did he show you places to trap?  Showed me all the areas while I was there.  Were you doing any hunting in there with Abel?  Yes, we do hunting.  You mentioned that you were on Luus's territory as  well?  Yes.  Were you with Abel on that occasion?  Yes. 6134  P. Muldoe (For Plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. rush  1 Q   And what part did you go on with Abel?  2 A  We go up north -- sort of north, northeast from near  3 Kuldo towards a place called Xsi Duutswit.  That's on  4 Luus's territory.  5 MR. RUSH:  It's 1411, My Lord.  And if you find Old Kuldo on the  6 map you will see Xsi Duutswit.  Just to the right of  7 it.  8 THE COURT:  Yes, I see it.  9 MR. RUSH:  10 Q   Now, I just wanted to backtrack just slightly, Mr.  11 Muldoe.  When you went out in that year in 1935 did  12 you go out by -- walk, or did you take the dog team or  13 how did you go?  What method did you use that year?  14 A  We go out -- when we do go out early in the fall we --  15 at least we start out with the horses, a team of  16 horses on the wagon, take our supplies to the end of  17 the road, and from there on we transfer to the  18 packhorse.  We had about three packhorse to go out and  19 take our supplies from there.  20 Q   Okay.  How long did it take you to get there?  21 A   It takes -- it all depends on the weather sometimes.  22 It takes at least about three days.  23 Q   And was your wife with you?  24 A   Yes.  25 Q   Your wife is Lottie?  26 A   Yes.  27 THE COURT:  From Kispiox?  28 THE WITNESS:  Yes.  2 9 Q   And you went with Abel's -- did you go with Abel's  30 wife?  31 A   Yes.  32 Q   And her name was?  33 A   Lucy.  34 Q   Do you remember her Gitksan name?  35 A  Wa'a.  Wa'a is the name of -- Sampson Muldoe holds  3 6 that name now.  37 Q   Sampson holds that to date?  38 A   Yes.  39 Q   Now, I think you said you stayed at Luus's house at  4 0 New Kuldo?  41 A   Yes.  42 Q   And is there a Gitksan name for New Kuldo?  43 A   Tselasxwm Gansxw.  4 4 MR. RUSH:  108, My Lord.  45 Q   Now, how many different trapping areas did you go to  46 when you were with Abel on that occasion in 1935?  47 A  Well, when I first go out with them, we went out and 6135  P. Muldoe (For Plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. rush  1 Abel's got the two different line on his territory.  2 It branches off.  He got so far up on the mountain and  3 he go down the other way towards Dam Similo'o.  4 Q   Dam Similo'o, My Lord, is the lake that you see off to  5 the right on the northern part of the Luus territory.  6 THE COURT:  Oh, yes, I see it.  7 MR. RUSH:  8 Q   And there were two main trapping areas that you worked  9 on on that occasion?  10 A   Yes.  11 Q   What time of the year did you first go out?  When did  12 you first start out?  13 A  We usually started out sometime in the middle of  14 September.  15 Q   And when did you return?  16 A  Well, we stayed out there 'til middle of September,  17 and at the same time the elderly people, they will do  18 some work around the old -- and Kuldo put out some  19 fishing and something like that for the winter use,  20 and have to take the horse back before the snow fall  21 to Kispiox.  Then we'll remain there 'til about either  22 the first week of December or the second week of  23 December, before we return to Kispiox.  24 Q   Okay.  Did you go back to the area after the new year,  25 into January?  26 A   Yes, we usually go back about after the middle of  27 January or the last part of January.  28 Q   Okay.  And in addition to trapping were you also  29 hunting?  30 A   Yes.  31 Q   Now, you mentioned putting up fish in Kuldo.  Were  32 there fishing sites in Kuldo that you know about?  33 A   Yes.  34 Q   Where did you fish?  35 A   The fishing site, we fished right mouth of Kuldo  36 canyon there, the place they call An guuks.  37 Q   Whose fishing site was that?  38 A   It was Luus's fishing site.  They have several fishing  39 sites there, but we only use one.  40 Q   How many fishing sites did Luus have there?  41 A  We only use one fishing site there.  42 Q   Okay.  43 THE TRANSLATOR:  A-n space g-u-u-k-s.  44 THE COURT:  G-u-u-k-s?  45 THE TRANSLATOR:  Yes.  4 6 THE COURT:  Thank you.  47 Q   Now, the fish that you caught at that site, Mr. 6136  1  2  3  A  4  Q  5  A  6  Q  7  8  A  9  10  11  12  13  Q  14  15  A  16  Q  17  A  18  19  20  Q  21  A  22  Q  23  A  24  Q  25  26  27  28  A  29  30  31  32  33  34  Q  35  36  A  37  Q  38  A  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  P. Muldoe (For Plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. rush  Muldoe, how were they prepared by you or your family  members?  Well, they prepared dried, smoke them.  What did you get there?  What fish did you get there?  Mostly cohoe and steelhead, be late in the fall.  Did you -- before you did your fishing there did you  take any fish with you from Kispiox?  We take a few fish from Kispiox, what is dry salmon,  like something like in the sockeye.  Sometimes we take  enough to last for the year.  We not only use for  ourselves, but also we have some for dog food too as  well.  And what was the quality of the fish like at New  Kuldo?  The quality of fish was good.  Were there any other sites that you fished at?  Yes, we fished -- on the ice fishing we fished on the  mouth of the Giist.  That's later in March.  That's  after the river been frozen over.  The mouth of Giist.  Is that G-i-i-s-t?  Yes.  And is Giist a creek?  Yes.  Now, when you were at New Kuldo doing your trapping  and hunting and fishing, were there other Gitksan  people who were either at the village or who passed  through the village?  Well, early part in '35 and then in '32, right from  the beginning when I know there was a lot of people  going through there, and some of them, they going  right up to the head of Skeena and different part of  the place around Blackwater and all different areas,  and around Poison Mountain and all those places.  Okay.  Do you remember some of the people that passed  through?  Yes.  Who were they?  Jimmy Blackwater going through there, Jack Wright,  Simon Wright, Charlie Stevenson and all his family,  and Moses Stevens -- actually Moses Stevens got a  place where they go right up to Xsi an giist.  And  there is quite a few more.  I just can't recall the  name of them -- every one of them.  Charlie Sampson,  Charlie Sterritt and Philip Wilson and all them people  from Hazelton and different places and Glen Vowell,  some from Kispiox.  There's more than about 50  different people that always go through it every year. 6137  1  Q  2  A  3  4  5  6  7  Q  8  9  A  10  Q  11  A  12  Q  13  A  14  15  Q  16  A  17  Q  18  19  20  A  21  Q  22  A  23  24  25  26  27  Q  28  A  29  30  31  32  33  34  Q  35  36  37  38  A  39  Q  40  A  41  42  43  44  Q  45  A  46  Q  47  A  P. Muldoe (For Plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. rush  Did they sometimes stay overnight in Kuldo?  Well, they mostly just go by there.  They will be  either travelling on the trail and there is no place  to stop, so they just go to a certain place where they  can rest their horse and feed their horse for  overnight or so like that.  Okay.  How old was Abel Tait when you were with him at  Kuldo?  Pardon?  How old was Abel Tait?  He must be over 60, I think.  Do you know how long he had been trapping up there?  He had been trapping -- he was raised and born out  there.  He trapped out there all his life.  He was born at Old Kuldo or New Kuldo?  Old Kuldo.  Now, Mr. Muldoe, when you went out trapping could you  go out trapping for a day and then work the trapping  area and return, or --  When we --  -- what did you do?  When we go out on the Luus territory they have a cabin  in there.  We stayed overnight in the cabin sometimes.  Sometimes we stayed a couple of night.  At least for  two night when early in the fall, then we come back to  Old Kuldo again.  And did you do that in other areas where you trapped?  Yes, we do the same thing when we come back on the  southern part of Kuldo Creek.  We have just an  overnight cabin in one place they call Xsi Gwin  Stimo'on, that's going just about just down below  second cabin.  Stayed overnight there, and we go onto  Deadhorse Lake where we have another cabin.  I am going to ask you specifically about where those  cabins are, but I wanted to ask you about the place  that you gave me, a Gitksan name for the first cabin,  I think, close to Kuldo Creek.  The one down below Kuldo Creek?  Yes.  They call that creek Xsi Gwin Stimo'on.  That's  where -- that's where the Humpies go up.  Everybody is  very familiar with the Humpies.  They live in the  ocean.  They made it all the way up to New Kuldo, did they?  Yes.  Even the seal gets right up there.  You have seen a seal up there?  Yes. 613?  P. Muldoe (For Plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. rush  1 THE COURT: I thought there was a name there that I'm not sure  2 that Madam Reporter got.  3 MR. RUSH:  Yes there is, and I thought I could locate it on  4 here.  5 Q   Give us the name of that creek again?  6 A   Xsi Gwin Stimo'on.  7 THE TRANSLATOR:  X-s-i space G-w-i-n space S-t-i-m-o'o-n.  8 THE COURT:  0-n?  9 THE TRANSLATOR:  Yes.  10 THE COURT:  Thank you.  11 MR. RUSH:  12 Q   Thank you.  When you did your hunting and trapping  13 after January, what were the snow conditions like?  14 A  Well, after January the snow conditions were pretty  15 good.  It was getting deeper and you can go further  16 on.  You can mostly travel over all the wind falls and  17 things like that.  18 Q   Did that allow you to get farther out from your --  19 A   Farther out.  Easier walking.  20 Q   And what were you trapping after Christmas?  21 A   The same thing, marten, fisher.  22 Q   And were you hunting at the same time?  23 A  Well, whenever we need meat we do a little hunting,  24 but whenever there is not we don't.  25 Q   And what would you hunt for?  26 A  Well, we hunt for moose or deer.  Hardly any deer up  27 there sometimes.  28 Q   And did you use the moose meat fresh, or did you dry  29 it?  30 A  Well, mostly we use fresh.  Some we dried.  31 Q   What about your firewood supply?  Did you have any  32 firewood at Kuldo when you were there?  33 A   Yes.  34 Q   Was that obtained close by?  35 A  Well, right at New Kuldo there is quite a few people  36 that lived there, and right around that little village  37 that they pretty well cut out, so we have to haul wood  38 with horse for about three quarter mile up to about a  39 mile.  40 Q   You mentioned you were at Dead Horse?  41 A  And Dead Horse was right around that place there.  42 Q   And your traps, where did you keep your traps when you  43 were --  44 A   Sometimes after when we finish with the trap we  45 usually just hang them up right where there is -- we  46 have a setting or some other place wherever people go  47 through.  We pick them up and gather them up and hang 6139  fishing.  1  2  Q  3  4  A  5  Q  6  7  A  8  Q  9  A  10  Q  11  A  12  Q  13  14  15  A  16  17 THE  COURT  18  A  19  Q  20  21  A  22  23  Q  24  25  26  A  27  28  Q  29  A  30  31  Q  32  33  A  34  Q  35  36  A  37  Q  38  A  39  Q  40  A  41  Q  42  43  A  44  45 THE  COURT  46  4 7 MR.  RUSH:  P. Muldoe (For Plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. rush  them up in a tree to keep them dry.  Now, you have been talking about 1935, and I guess it  would be into the spring of 1936?  Yes.  Did you go up as far north as Driftwood Creek with  Abel?  Yes.  Did you go up there with Abel on that year?  Yes.  Did you get up to Shaladamus that year?  In '36 I was up at Shaladamus.  Now, what time did you -- what time of the -- what  month, I guess, of the spring did you return to the  village?  We usualy return about in the -- either the middle  part of March or the last week of March.  :  As you returned to Kispiox?  Yes, up --  And when you returned to Kispiox what did you do?  What did you do there?  Take a little break until spring, we put in a garden,  and from there on we go down to commercial  And you fished in the commercial fishery for what  months?  What months did you fish in the commercial  fish --  We usually start about the middle of June and right up  to about the 15th of October, something like that.  Were you fishing to the 15th of October in 1935?  Well, sometime around in '36 and '35, I think.  I just  don't remember what year it was.  Now, in 1936, in the fall of '36 and into '37 were you  out hunting and trapping again?  Yes.  Can you tell us where you went on that occasion?  Where did you go then?  We went right up towards Xsi Laadamus.  At that time who were you with?  I was with my wife.  Was it just you and she?  Yes.  And did you spend another year like the one that you  have described previously?  Yes, we did the same thing, go out 'til early in the  fall and then get back after -- before Christmas.  :  Shall we adjourn for the afternoon for a few  minutes, Mr. Rush, at this point?  Yes.  Thank you. 6140  Proceedings  1 THE REGISTRAR: Order in court.  2  3  4  5 I HEREBY CERTIFY THE FOREGOING TO  6 BE A TRUE AND ACCURATE TRANSCRIPT  7 OF THE PROCEEDINGS HEREIN TO THE  8 BEST OF MY SKILL AND ABILITY  9  10  11 LORI OXLEY  12 OFFICIAL REPORTER  13 UNITED REPORTING SERVICE LTD.  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47 6141  Proceedings  1 (PROCEEDINGS RESUMED FOLLOWING SHORT RECESS)  2 THE COURT:  Mr. Rush?  3 MR. RUSH:  4 Q I think I was asking you, Mr. Muldoe, if you had  5 returned to Kuldo or the trapping and hunting areas in  6 that area, in 1936 or '37?  7 A '36 and '37 I believe I was trapping out towards  8 Kuldo.  9 Q And, did you go out again in the fall and then return  10 before Christmas and then go out again in the spring?  11 A Yes.  12 Q Did you do that every year?  13 A Yes.  14 Q How many years did you do that sequencing of trapping  15 in the fall and the spring and fishing in the summer?  16 A I think it's right up to '42 sometimes.  17 Q You mentioned your brother-in-law, Steven Morrison,  18 did you go out on to any hunting grounds with Steven?  19 A Yes, I was out there hunting with him and I think it  20 was part of a -- part of '35 and '36, I think.  21 Q And do you know a man by the name of Alfred Hillis?  22 A Yes.  23 Q Did you trap or hunt with Alfred?  24 A Yes.  That was a few years back, later.  25 Q Whereabouts were you --  26 A What's out at Xsi Laadamus.  27 Q At Xsi Laadamus?  28 A Yes, and Xsi maxhla Gantx.  29 MR. RUSH:  Xsi maxhla Gantx is 1395, my lord.  30 Q Were you ever trapping with Jeff Harris, Mr. Muldoe,  31 Jeff Harris senior?  32 A Jeff Harris come out with me but we trapped around,  33 from Kuldo, around Deep Canoe and Dead Horse.  34 Q Deep Canoe and Dead Horse, that's on Wii gyet's  35 territory?  36 A Yes.  37 Q That year, did you trap on Luus' territory?  38 A Later in the spring we trapped on Luus' territory.  39 Q Now, were you trapping or hunting with Delgamuukw?  40 A Yes.  41 Q Who held Delgamuukw in the late '30s, early '40s?  42 A Sometimes in '38, or '37, I don't remember, but I was  43 out there with Delgamuukw.  He was out there with me.  44 We trapped around Dead Horse and Deep Canoe and all  45 those areas.  4 6 Q And was it -- who held the name of Delgamuukw at that  4 7 time? 6142  1  A  2  Q  3  4  A  5  Q  6  A  7  Q  8  A  9  10  11  12  Q  13  A  14  15  Q  16  17  18  A  19  Q  20  A  21  22  23  Q  24  25  A  26  27  28  29  30  31  Q  32  A  33  Q  34  A  35  36  Q  37  38  A  39  40  Q  41  42  43  A  44  Q  45  46  A  47  Q  P. Muldoe (For Plaintiffs)  In Chief by Mr. Rush  Albert Tait.  And did you do any trapping or hunting with Lloyd  Morrison?  Yes.  And Lloyd now holds the name of Wii gyet?  Yes.  What happened in '42, Mr. Muldoe, did you --  I think it was in the '40s when Lloyd Morrison was out  with me, but in '42, I think we was still trapping, I  don't remember which -- either '42 or '43 when we  started up a sawmill.  And who did you start up that sawmill with?  Me and my brother-in-law, Jeff Harris and Chris  Harris, the three of us.  I am not going to ask you about the sawmill just yet,  I will in a moment, but how long did this mill  operate?  How many years did the mill run?  On the sawmill?  Yes, the sawmill, it started in '42 --  Yes, we was running it for about eight years or  something like that, I guess.  Probably about eight  years, across from Kispiox.  When did you stop operating the sawmill, what year, do  you remember?  I think -- well, we operated it for about eight years,  I think, and then on account of financial things we  stopped a few years and then from there on I took it  up again and me and Jeff Harris and we started up.  But I just don't remember what year when I started up  again.  And is that Jeff Harris senior?  Yes, Jeff Harris senior.  Did he have the name Luus at that time?  No -- I don't know what name -- Luus was still alive  at that time.  He didn't have the name Luus at that time but he holds  the name Luus now?  He had a name but I wouldn't know what name he was  using.  I am going to come back to the sawmill in just a  moment, but before I move to that I want to ask you  about when you were trapping with Abel Tait?  Yes.  Did Abel point out creeks and mountains and tell you  names?  Yes.  Of those mountains? 6143  1  A  2  Q  3  4  A  5  Q  6  7  A  8  Q  9  A  10  Q  11  A  12  13  Q  14  15  16  A  17  Q  18  19  A  20  Q  21  22  23  A  24  25  Q  26  27  28  A  29  30  31  32  33  Q  34  A  35  36  37  38  Q  39  A  40  Q  41  A  42  Q  43  A  44  45  46  47  Q  P. Muldoe (For Plaintiffs)  In Chief by Mr. Rush  Yes.  Did he tell you who owned the hunting territories that  you were on?  Yes.  Now, when you were with Alfred Hillis, where did you  go with Alfred?  We went up to Shaladamus and around Xsi Maxhla Ganx.  Xsi Maxhla Ganx.  And that's Driftwood Creek, correct?  Yes.  Did Alfred tell you about the names and the places?  Yes.  He had been there before, he knows the names but  I also know the names of places at that time.  Now, when you were hunting and trapping and travelling  through the territories with Abel Tait and Joe Starr,  were you travelling on trails?  Yeah.  Okay.  And what trails, what was the main trail that  you used?  We used the main trail, telegraph line trail.  Okay.  And do you know when the telegraph line, do you  know when the company stopped maintaining the  telegraph line?  I think it was sometimes before '40, I think.  Must be  somewhere in and about '37 or something like that.  Now, when you travelled over those -- the trails  before the telegraph company left, did you maintain  the trails yourself?  Well, whenever we go through that trail we always  maintain it, if a snow fall, a lot of little trees  would come over the trail like that, and we have to  stop and cut it open or a windfall we have to open it  up in order to get through.  Now, after 1937, who maintained that telegraph trail?  Well, I maintained the trail, like the wife and one of  my boys went out there the first time when they -- but  they maintained the a little ways and then we keep it  open ever since right along.  Are there bridges on that trail?  Are there bridges --  Yeah.  -- crossing creeks on the trail?  Yes.  Who maintained those bridges after '37?  Well, we did build one after the telegraph lines quit,  they didn't no longer using the telegraph line and one  of the bridges are washed out but the only bridge we  put in was that deep at Deep Canoe.  That's in --  Now, north of Kuldo, Old Kuldo up to Shaladamus, were 6144  1  2  A  3  4  Q  5  A  6  7  8  Q  9  10  A  11  12  THE  COURT  13  14  15  16  MR.  RUSH:  17  Q  18  19  A  20  Q  21  A  22  Q  23  A  24  25  THE  COURT  26  A  27  THE  COURT  28  29  MR.  RUSH:  30  31  32  33  THE  COURT  34  MR.  RUSH:  35  36  37  Q  38  39  40  A  41  Q  42  43  44  A  45  46  47  Q  P. Muldoe (For Plaintiffs)  In Chief by Mr. Rush  there trails into Shaladamus and up Driftwood Creek?  Well, there is trapping trail goes up along the creek  and along the line but it's pretty well grown up.  Who maintained those trails when you were out there?  We maintained the trail just about up to, well, we  went up there once but I think things were pretty bad.  All the wind falls and pretty well grown in.  When you went up there that time, did you cut open the  trail?  Yes, we cut the trail open and I don't remember  whether it was in 1953, something like that.  :  Mr. Rush it would help me to know where this  telegraph trail is, if it can be generally stated.  I  don't need any details, but are we talking down near  Kispiox or Shaladamus.  No, my lord.  The telegraph trail, does that run in the areas you  have been talking about?  Pardon?  Where does the telegraph trail go?  It goes right through to Whitehorse or somewhere.  On the way to Whitehorse, does it go by Old Kuldo?  It goes right by Old Kuldo.  New Kuldo, go right  through Stikine and then right beyond that.  :  Where does it start?  It starts from Hazelton.  :  I see.  Thank you.   That's good enough.  Thank you,  Mr. Rush.  If you look on the map, my lord, you will see a  dotted line and I am going to be asking the witness  about that.  Particularly runs through the Wii gyet  territory.  :  Yes, I see it there.  And I don't presume to say that that's the telegraph  trail but I think there is some proximity to -- where  it is on the ground.  Now, in the years between 1931 and 1942, where did you  spend most of your time hunting?  What territory was  it and what part of a territory?  In '31?  Well, in that ten year period between '31 and '42,  where do you remember spending most of your time  hunting?  Well, most of that time it was around Dead Horse and  different places, around towards Kuldo, and beyond  that.  When you say beyond that, where do you mean? 6145  1  A  2  Q  3  A  4  Q  5  A  6  Q  7  8  A  9  Q  10  A  11  Q  12  A  13  Q  14  15  A  16  17  Q  18  A  19  THE  INTER  20  A  21  22  MR.  RUSH:  23  Q  24  A  25  THE  COURT  26  MR.  RUSH:  27  THE  TRANS  28  MR.  RUSH:  29  30  31  A  32  MR.  RUSH:  33  Q  34  A  35  Q  36  A  37  Q  38  39  A  40  Q  41  A  42  Q  43  A  44  Q  45  A  46  Q  47  P. Muldoe (For Plaintiffs)  In Chief by Mr. Rush  Beyond Old Kuldo.  Is that at Driftwood?  Driftwood and Shaladamus.  What about trapping?  Well, do trapping as well, too, not only hunting.  Now, I think you told us a little earlier that the  hunting that you did was mainly for moose?  Yes.  Did you also hunt goat?  Goat.  Where did you hunt goat?  It's on the Luus' territory.  And is there a particular place on Luus' territory  that you used to go?  It's a place they called Andax aaws.  It's just ahead  of Xsan Hakw.  Andax aaws is 14 01.  And also right ahead of --  URETER:   What is the name of Sam Green Creek?  I don't remember the name of it.  Right at the head of  Sam Green Creek.  There is a place at the head of Sam Green Creek?  Yes, they named it Xsan Hakw.  :  Is that Sam Green?  Yes, Sam Green.  IATOR:  1410 is the other one.  My lord, if you look on the map where Kisagaast is  located, you will see Sam Green Creek located there.  And you will also see Andax aaws.  North of Kisagaast.  North of Kisagaast.  Did you do any hunting for groundhog?  Yes.  Where did you hunt groundhog?  We hunt groundhog at second cabin, below Kuldo Creek.  And who told you about where to go for groundhog?  Who  told you about where to go for groundhog?  Abel Tait, Luus.  Did you hunt groundhog and goat with Abel?  Hm-hmm.  You were with him when you did the hunting?  Yes.  Did you do any bear hunting up there, Pete?  Abel I was doing the bear.  Now, I just wanted to ask you now about when you  started the sawmill in 1942, and I think you said that 6146  1  2  A  3  Q  4  A  5 THE  COURT  6 MR.  RUSH:  7  Q  8  A  9  Q  10  A  11  Q  12  A  13  Q  14  A  15  16  17  Q  18  A  19  20  Q  21  22  A  23  24  Q  25  A  26  Q  27 THE  COURT  28  29  A  30  31 THE  COURT  32  A  33 MR.  RUSH:  34  Q  35  36  37  A  38  Q  39  A  40  Q  41  42  A  43  44  45  46  47  P. Muldoe (For Plaintiffs)  In Chief by Mr. Rush  you set up the sawmill with two other people?  Yes.  That was Chris Harris and Jeff Harris?  Yes.  :  He mentioned his brother-in-law as well.  And your brother-in-law?  Yes.  Who was your brother-in-law?  Chris Harris and Jeff Harris.  They were both your brothers-in-law?  Yes.  Did Chris hold a Gitksan name at that time?  No, he wasn't holding the name of Luus at that time.  Because Luus was still alive at that time.  But I  don't know what name he was holding at that time.  Did Chris Harris have a name at that time?  Chris?  He had a name but I wouldn't know what name he was  holding.  Now, can you recall where it was that the sawmill was  set up?  It's right across from the Kispiox Village, it's about  a mile and a half.  And was that west or east from Kispiox?  It's on the west from Kispiox.  Now, can you --  :  When you say west, do you mean on the highway  towards Hazelton or across the river?  West, the highway runs south from Hazelton but it's  right across from Kispiox, the west side.  :  Isn't there a river --  There is a road cut into there.  I think his lordship is asking whether or not the --  where you started the sawmill was it on the west side  of the Kispiox?  Yes, on the west side of Kispiox.  Of the Kispiox River?  Yes, and also the west side of Kispiox Village.  Now, why did you start the mill up at that time in  1942?  Well, during that time was -- it wasn't anything too  much going on, some of the younger people they don't  go out trapping and things like that, and the only  thing they were doing, during the summer they go  commercial fishing and after the sockeye season they  all coming home, that's the reason we start up a 6147  1  2  3  Q  4  5  A  6  Q  7  8  A  9  Q  10  A  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  Q  18  19  A  20  Q  21  22  A  23  24  Q  25  26  A  27  Q  28  29  A  30  31  32  Q  33  34  A  35  Q  36  A  37  Q  38  A  39  Q  40  41  A  42  43  44  45  46  47  Q  P. Muldoe (For Plaintiffs)  In Chief by Mr. Rush  sawmill, so I ask a few people to be employed in  there.  Was there a meeting in the Village of Kispiox about  starting up the mill?  No.  Did -- were there people from the village who worked  at the mill?  Yes.  Who were some of the people that worked at the mill?  It's -- I can't recall them.  Quite a few people from  Kispiox and some from Hazelton, some from Glen Vowell  and different places.  We wasn't the only one that had  a mill around that area, there must be about 20, 20 or  more small outfit that having a mill all around the  area, all along the Kispiox River and down towards  Hazelton.  About how many people from the Village of Kispiox did  you employ?  I think we employed about 15 or 20, maybe more.  And how long did you keep this mill operating at that  place to the west of the village?  I think we operated for about eight years or something  like that.  Now, you said that you had to shut down for a few  years because of financial difficulties?  Yes.  And what was the financial difficulties that you ran  into?  Well, we have a little problem with Workmen's  Compensation I think, we didn't have enough money to  pay them right off, but we still have the mill.  I take it the mill wasn't used during the time that  you were shut down?  Yeah.  And then you said you started up again?  Yes.  Okay.  And how long did you keep it going after that?  I keep it going for about another 12 years, I think.  Now, did Jeff Harris and Chris Harris, were they  involved with you for the whole period of time?  No, Chris Harris dropped out after we operated from  Kispiox there.  And during that time, I was asking  them if they were going to come back in again, but  Chris dropped out, so I was the only one that put up  more money than any one of them and Jeff had a little  money to put in too so he had to come in with me.  Now, you said the mill kept running for another 12 6148  1  2  A  3  Q  4  A  5  Q  6  A  7  Q  8  A  9  Q  10  A  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  Q  25  A  26  Q  27  A  28  Q  29  A  30  Q  31  32  33  34  A  35  Q  36  37  38  A  39  40  41  42  Q  43  44  A  45  Q  46  47  A  P. Muldoe (For Plaintiffs)  In Chief by Mr. Rush  years?  Yes.  And then it stopped?  Yes.  Why did it stop?  Well, we were having the same problem too.  What problem was that?  The financial problem.  What happened?  Like, like after quite a few years, a bigger company  coming in there and they trying to push everything out  of there if they can.  And I was supplying the lumber  to the Hazelton Sawmill, and shipping some through --  Sargant shipped some through the Northern Mill at  Smithers.  Sargant was handling all the shipping for  us.  And then all of a sudden, the Hazelton Sawmill  said I owed them some money, but then they put in  everything like that and other people stepped in and  said I owed them money.  I don't know just what I owe  them.  They just wanted to push us out of there and I  wasn't the only one.  They pushed all the little  sawmills right out of the country and they operate the  Hazelton sawmill.  And what happened to your equipment?  They took all the equipment.  Did you have a quota?  Yes, I have a quota.  And what happened to that?  The Hazelton Sawmill took over that too.  Who were some of the people that worked with you over  west of the Village of Kispiox that you said about a  mile and a half west of the village and west of the  river?  Yes.  Who were some of the people that worked with you  there?  Who were some of the people that were employed  to work with you there?  Well, pretty hard to recall this.  I think it's  about -- I got some of the names down here, but --  there is Perry Good, Walter Blackwater, Bailey Tait,  Albert Tait, George Wilson, William Sebastian --  Mr. Muldoe, just a -- you wrote some of the names  down, did you?  Yes.  Do you want to just start again?  Just a little  slower.  Perry Good, Walter Blackwater, Bailey Tait, Albert 6149  1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  Q  12  13  14  A  15  Q  16  A  17  THE  TRANS  18  THE  COURT  19  MR.  RUSH:  20  Q  21  22  A  23  24  25  Q  26  27  A  28  29  30  31  32  Q  33  A  34  35  Q  36  A  37  Q  38  39  A  40  Q  41  A  42  THE  COURT  43  MR.  RUSH:  44  Q  45  46  47  A  P. Muldoe (For Plaintiffs)  In Chief by Mr. Rush  Tait, George Wilson, William Sebastian, Ernest Angus,  John Tait, Victor Mowatt, Robert M. Stevens, Jack  Williams, Howard Sexsmith, Lloyd Marsden, Jasper Jack,  Johnson Williams, Eli Wilson, and then -- this is on  the other part.  Then it's also, I forget the name of  the -- I think Charlie Sterritt was working himself,  senior, Neil's father, and Jacob Morrison, they was  hauling logs with a team.  Quite a few with a team  that lived right in the village working in there.  But  I can't recall all the names.  All right.  You have recalled a good number of them.  Mr. Muldoe, Jacob Morrison, do you recall what  house he was from?  The House of Ma'uus.  Ma'uus?  Yes.  IATOR:      That's   48.  :      Number   again?  48 on the plaintiffs' list, my lord.  The people that you have just mentioned, were they  from the Village of Kispiox?  Most of them from Kispiox, just pretty near all of  them except a few from Hazelton, a few from Glen  Vowell.  When you were operating your mill, what kind of  cutting methods did you use?  Well, at that time, we only cutting -- well, we  cutting cedar and cedar and whatever is not good  enough for poles we cut it into lumber.  But mostly  spruce.  But at that time, hemlock and jack pine were  next to nothing.  What was the size of the trees that you were cutting?  Of the spruce, we can't take anything any smaller than  about 16 inch diameter.  Everything else was left?  Yes, and anything smaller we have to leave it.  Do you know the method of cutting called clear  cutting?  No.  Do you know what clear cutting is?  No clear cutting during that time.  :  I don't think he understood your question.  No.  Mr. Muldoe, I am just asking you if you know what  clear cutting is, the method of logging called clear  cutting, do you know what that is?  Yes. 6150  P. Muldoe (For Plaintiffs)  In Chief by Mr. Rush  1 Q   Did you use clear cutting then?  2 A   No.  3 Q   Has clear cutting been used on places where you had  4 logged after you left the business?  5 A   Yes.  6 Q   While you were operating your sawmill did you continue  7 to hunt and trap?  8 A  Well, we didn't do too much trapping on that, except  9 during the spring, spring break-up sometimes we do a  10 little trapping on the beaver.  11 Q   Where did you go for beaver trapping?  12 A   Go around somewhere and Dead Horse.  13 Q   Around Dead Horse?  14 A   Yes.  15 Q   That's Dead Horse Lake?  16 A   Yes.  17 Q   That's the one on Wii gyet's territory?  18 A   Yeah.  That's all the way around Cullen Creek there,  19 right up to Dead Horse.  20 Q   Okay.  Now, in that period as well, Mr. Muldoe, did  21 you do any cord wood cutting?  22 A   Yes.  23 Q   What was that, what did you do with the cord wood?  24 A  Well, they have to take out, during that time they  25 have to take out of a little timber sale for enough  26 cord wood to cut there, wherever is handy, close to  27 the road usually, we didn't have any other equipment  28 to cut the road in, without -- to push the road in, we  29 just used to go off the road a little ways and take  30 out a timber sale to cut wood in there.  31 Q   And you cut cord wood, did you?  32 A   Yes.  33 Q   What did you do with the cord wood?  34 A  Well, I usually hired a few men, a few boys to do the  35 cutting and pay them so much a cord and all I do is  36 haul the wood away, whoever wants it, and sell it to  37 them.  38 Q   And did you haul the wood for people in the village?  39 A   Haul the wood for the village and Glen Vowell or  40 Hazelton, anywhere at all.  41 Q   You mentioned that you had a place where you cut wood  42 while you were operating the sawmill that was to the  43 west of Kispiox?  44 A   Yes.  45 Q   Did you have another limit to the north of Kispiox?  46 A   Yes, I had a little timber sale there, mostly just for  47 poles, cedar poles.  But there was no logging on that. 6151  1  2  Q  3  4  A  5  Q  6  7  A  8  Q  9  A  10  11  Q  12  A  13  Q  14  15  A  16  Q  17  A  18 THE  COURT  19  A  2 0 THE  COURT  21 MR.  RUSH:  22  Q  23  24  A  25  Q  26  A  27  28  Q  29  30  A  31  Q  32  33  34  A  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  Q  42  A  43  44  Q  45  A  46  Q  47  A  P. Muldoe (For Plaintiffs)  In Chief by Mr. Rush  Just on cedar poles.  Now, do you remember the year that the mill closed  down, what year was that?  That's at Kispiox?  Yes, when you -- when the mill shut down once and for  all?  Oh, that's up 19 Mile.  You had another limit at 19 Mile?  Yes, I had another limit at 19 Mile, that's where you  had to pick limits.  Is that the one that the Hazelton sawmill took over?  Yes.  When did you finally leave the sawmill business, what  was the year?  The last time I operated the sawmill?  Yes, that's right.  It was in 1966, I think now.  :  '66?  '66.  :  Thank you.  And when the mill closed down, did you -- what did you  do after that to --  Well, mostly trapping and fishing.  Where did you go trapping again?  I go trapping around Dead Horse and around Gitudahl  territory as well.  Is that the territory that you told us about at Naa  Dax De'et?  Yes.  Now, when you -- after 1966, when you were trapping  after 1966, Mr. Muldoe, how did you get out to your  territory at that time to do your trapping?  Well, around Kispiox I usually drive out part ways and  stay into the cabin where I built -- well, in the  first place I have to build a cabin there, after Moses  Morrison gave me the territory and I have to haul the  lumber out  of there with a team of horses and a  wagon, because there is no highway or anything, the  road is rough.  And where was that cabin built?  That's about -- it's about a mile and a half below Naa  dax de'et, below Twin Lake.  On Gitludahl's territory?  Yeah.  Is there a little creek that runs under Naa Dax De'et?  Yes. 6152  1  Q  2  A  3  MR.  RUSH:  4  5  6  THE  TRANS  7  MR.  RUSH:  8  9  THE  COURT  10  MR.  RUSH:  11  12  13  14  THE  COURT  15  MR.  RUSH:  16  Q  17  18  A  19  Q  20  21  A  22  Q  23  A  24  Q  25  A  26  Q  27  A  28  Q  29  30  A  31  Q  32  33  A  34  Q  35  A  36  Q  37  A  38  Q  39  A  40  41  Q  42  43  A  44  45  Q  46  47  P. Muldoe (For Plaintiffs)  In Chief by Mr. Rush  That is called Xsi Naa Dax De'et?  Yes.  My lord, if you look on the map, you will see a -- on  Gitludahl's territory, about in the middle of the map,  the overlay --  IATOR:  It's 1539.  Thank you.  And you will see the letters, Xsi and  then it runs down Anspayaxw, and then the is words --  :  That's the Kispiox River, is it not?  Yes.  And there is the small lettering to the right  of that called Xsi Naa Dax De'et.  I show that to you  for your reference, and I think the evidence will be  that the two lakes there are Twin Lakes.  :  Is that X-S-I-M-A-A?  Yes.  So on that occasion, you took the lumber in to build  the cabin by wagon?  Hm-hmm.  Did you do any packing along the trails, did you do  any packing?  Yes.  You used snowshoes during that period?  Yes.  Now, after 1966, Mr. Muldoe, were you back at Kuldo?  Yes.  And were you hunting and trapping in that period?  Yes.  And where did you stay, where did you make your camp  when you were back there?  We stayed in tents from the time we went back.  And did you -- you mentioned Deep Canoe, were you  hunting or trapping around Deep Canoe as well?  Hm-hmm.  You were?  Yes.  And at Dead Horse?  Dead Horse, yes.  And were these at campsites in those places?  Well, there is a campsite right besides the Dead Horse  camp.  Now, since 1966, what fur-bearing animals have you  been trapping?  Mostly, mostly marten, fisher, weasel, in the  springtime it's muskrat or beaver, otter.  And did you go out in the spring and fall in each year  or did you just go out at a certain time of the year  in the spring or the fall? 6153  P. Muldoe (For Plaintiffs)  In Chief by Mr. Rush  1 A  Well, mostly for beaver we go out in the spring but  2 for marten we go out in the fall.  3 Q   And more recently, Mr. Muldoe, how do you get to your  4 place where you were trapping?  5 A  Well, for quite a few years we have to drive part ways  6 and walk in the rest of the way.  7 Q   How far would you walk?  8 A   Oh, about three or four miles, something like that, to  9 the cabin.  10 Q   And then from the cabin would you then --  11 A   Yeah.  12 Q   Then go out on your trapping area?  13 A   Yes.  14 THE COURT:  Is this at cabin at Twin Lakes?  15 A   Yes.  At that time there was no bridge, we have to use  16 a boat to go across on the west side of Kispiox.  17 MR. RUSH:  18 Q   Did you maintain a boat out there?  19 A   Yes.  20 Q   Is that the kind of country you can travel around  21 in -- around in a Skidoo?  22 A   No Skidoos that year.  23 THE COURT:  Well, when you left Kispiox to drive, would you  24 drive up the west side of the river?  25 A   It's on the left-hand side is where that road goes up.  26 THE COURT:  Left-hand side going up the river?  27 A   Going up the valley.  28 THE COURT:  All right.  Then you had to cross the river when you  29 got to the lake?  Did you cross the river just before  30 you got to the lake, did you?  31 A   Yes.  32 THE COURT:  And you used the boat to cross the river?  33 A   Yes.  34 THE COURT:  Or the lake?  35 A   Used a boat to cross the river.  36 THE COURT:  Across the river.  Okay.  What do you think, Mr.  37 Rush, will this be a convenient place to adjourn?  38 MR. RUSH:  All right.  Thank you.  3 9 THE COURT:  Thank you.  40  41 I hereby certify the foregoing to be  42 a true and accurate transcript of the  43 proceedings herein to the best of my  44 skill and ability.  45  46  47 Wilf Roy 6154  Muldoe (For Plaintiffs)  In Chief by Mr. Rush  Official Reporter

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