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Delgamuukw Trial Transcripts

[Proceedings of the Supreme Court of British Columbia 1988-03-04] British Columbia. Supreme Court Mar 4, 1988

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 4107  9  10  11 THE  12  13 MR.  14  15 THE  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33 MR.  34  35  36  37  38 THE  3 9 MR.  4 0 THE  41  42 MR.  43 THE  44  45  46  47  Vancouver, B.C.  March 4, 1988  (PROCEEDINGS RECONVENED AT 10:00 a.m.)  THE REGISTRAR:  Order in court.  In the Supreme Court of British  Columbia, Friday the 4th day of March, 1988.  On  Delgamuukw versus Her Majesty the Queen at bar, My  Lord.  Caution Mrs. Dora Wilson, you are still under  oath.  COURT:  Mr. Grant, before you start, I have a delicate and  unpleasant matter to bring up.  GRANT:  Should I leave the courtroom for this matter, My  Lord?  COURT:  I don't think so, although it may affect your  presence.  We have an absolute disaster on our hands  on Monday: we have 27 trials and three judges.  I'm  asking judges on long trials of which there are far  too many, if they can stand their cases down for a  couple of days.  And I inquire of counsel now if it  would seriously inconvenience them if this case was  stood down for two or three days.  I think this is a  case that probably has some differences than the other  cases.  In this case the witnesses and some counsel  are from out of town, and for that reason if it would  be a serious inconvenience either with respect to the  present witness or scheduled witnesses, then I  wouldn't stand this trial down.  But I feel, as I'm  asking all judges to consider their positions in this  situation, I should do the same thing here, and I  invite counsel to indicate whether a three-day delay  would be a serious inconvenience.  GRANT:  Well it certainly comes as a bit of a surprise, My  Lord.  I wondered if I -- from the plaintiff's side,  if I could speak to the matter after the morning  break, because I would like to consult with Mr. Rush  and also with this witness.  COURT:  Yes.  GRANT:  And my clients.  COURT:  I thought it might not be as big an inconvience if  you are going home, for example, anyway.  GRANT:  You may have changed my plans.  I may be going home.  COURT:  All right.  And I would be glad if you do that.  As  I say, I -- I think this case is in a different  situation from -- well, like Mr. Justice Spencer's  case on for six or eight months in a purely commercial  matter.  And I don't think that those parties, 1  2  3  MR.  GRANT  4  5  THE  COURT  6  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  MR.  GRANT  16  17  18  THE  COURT  19  20  21  MR.  GRANT  4108  Quintette Coal and who's the other party, Bow Valley  Industries, really matters to them all that much.  :  I'm only concerned because there is this witness and  also other people phoned down and --  :  I include not just the inconvenience of the people  before me, but the ongoing planning at the moment.  So  if counsel would consider their position I would be  glad to be guided by whatever counsel have to say in  that regard.  Thank you.  I should say, I'm thinking of not more than three  days.  We have in the 27 or 29 cases, we have seven  priority cases that have been bounced already at least  once, and we should try to get those on if we possibly  can.  Thank you, Mr. Grant.  :  Well if we press to go ahead, I would like not to be  in the courtroom when you give your lectures to  counsel Monday morning, My Lord.  :  Well, if we go ahead with this case on Monday, I  won't start until 10:30 because there will be problems  I will have to deal with at that time.  :  Yes, My Lord.  Thank you.  22  23 EXAMINATION IN CHIEF BY MR. GRANT (cont'd):  Mrs. Wilson-Kenni, I -- yesterday when we stopped, I  was asking you about relations between your house, the  house of Spookw, and also other houses, and I focused  on what I may summarize as marriage relationships.  And you described a number of persons who were Gitksan  who married Wet'suwet'en persons and vice versa.  Now,  I would like to go to another aspect of this  relationship between the Gitksan and Wet'suwet'en this  morning, and I would like to ask you about the  relationship between your house and the house of  Gisdaywa, or Kaiyexweniits.  Now at the present -- or  in the very recent past, has a member of your house  been adopted into Gisdaywa's House?  Yes.  And who was that?  The most recent is Abe, Abraham.  And this is your adopted son --  Yes.  -- who is shown on the genealogy?  And what -- was he  given a name in Gisdaywa's house?  Yes.  He was given the name Holiits.  :  Do you have a spelling for that?  46 THE TRANSLATOR:  H-O-L-I-I-T-S.  4 7 MR. GRANT:  24  Q  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  A  38  Q  39  A  40  Q  41  A  42  Q  43  44  A  4 5 MR.  GRANT 4109  1 Q   Thank you.  Why was he adopted into Gisdaywa's house  2 from your house?  3 A   It was because we were taking Ida back into the House  4 of Spookw.  5 Q   This is Ida Austin?  6 A   Ida Austin, she was in Gisdaywa's house, and it was  7 decided that Ida would be taken back and given a name  8 in our own house of Spookw, and that Abe would be  9 adopted into Gisdaywa's house.  This --  10 Q   Go ahead, go ahead.  You were saying?  11 A  Well, actually, this is not the only time that this  12 type of thing has happened.  Like before Ida, I -- I  13 was also given a name in the house of Gisdaywa, and  14 then around 1975 I was taken back to the house of  15 Spookw and given the name Yaga'lahl at that time.  And  16 this is because the house of Gisdaywa was very small  17 and that -- and we -- we would help one another  18 through the feasts.  If anything happened in the house  19 of Gisdaywa, then we were -- we were there to help  20 him.  21 Q   Um-hmm?  22 A  And because of that, Sylvester George who was Mahleeh  23 in the house of Gisdaywa, gave me the name of Kameaks.  24 MR. GRANT:  Just one moment, please.  Can you get a spelling for  25 that name, or number?  26 THE TRANSLATOR:  For which one?  2 7 MR. GRANT:  Kameaks.  28 THE TRANSLATOR:  265.  265, My Lord.  Thank you, Mr. Mitchell.  Now just before you go on, if I could just  interject, when was Abraham adopted into Gisdaywa's  house?  It was just last October, the 10th of October, '87.  October 10th, '87?  Yes.  And you said -- and again, just to clarify a few  points, you said that Ida came into your house and  this was Ida Austin?  Yes.  Had Ida been born into Spookw's house or Gisdaywa's  house?  Spookw's house.  And she was then adopted into Gisdaywa's house in the  past?  She -- yes, she was given the name in Gisdaywa's  house.  2 9 MR.  GRA1  30  Q  31  32  33  34  A  35  Q  36  A  37  Q  38  39  40  A  41  Q  42  43  A  44  Q  45  46  A  47 1  Q  2  A  3  Q  4  A  5  Q  6  A  7  Q  8  A  9  Q  10  A  11  Q  12  A  13  Q  14  15  A  16  MR.  GRANT  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  THE  COURT  30  MR.  GRANT  31  THE  WITNE  32  MR.  GRANT  33  34  THE  COURT  35  MR.  GRANT  36  THE  COURT  37  MR.  GRANT  38  39  THE  COURT  40  MR.  GRANT  41  42  43  THE  COURT  44  MR.  GRANT  45  THE  COURT  46  MR.  GRANT  47  4110  Okay.  Do you recall approximately when that was?  That was when Madelaine George passed away.  Okay.  Madelaine George Seymour.  And Madelaine George was from which house?  Gisdaywa.  And so it was at a Gisdaywa feast --  Yes.  -- that she was adopted?  Yes.  And Ida Austin is your sister?  Yes.  When Ida Austin was brought back into Spookw's house,  was she given a name in your house?  Yes.  I would ask if you could turn to tab number four of  the document book, please.  Now, My Lord, I will speak with the Registrar at  the break, but maybe for both my friends' assistance  and your assistance, I can indicate to you that it  appeared, at least in the copy I was working with,  that the pages may have been -- they are not numbered  but they may have been misordered.  And I will just  refer you to the pages in tab 4, if you wish, so that  you know the sequence.  The first page at the very -- the top name is --  refers to "Mary Duncan & Madelaine George Head Stone  Feast - October 10th, 1987."  Hold on, I have not found that yet.  Oh, okay.  And the first name is Ron Sebastian.  S:  Second last page.  Yes.  Maybe I'll look at the exhibit and then I  can -- because I now have mine ordered.  Is that Mary Duncan and Madelaine George?  Yes.  Yes.  And then under number one in the column is Ron  Sebastian.  Yes.  That should be page 1?  That should be page 1.  Page 2, that would be --  turning it over, would be Andy Tom would be at the top  of it.  Yes.  Page 3 should have Edward Wright at the top.  Yes.  And turning it over would have Martha Danes at the  top. THE  MR.  THE  MR.  1  2  3  4  5  6  7 THE  8 MR.  9  10  11  12 THE  13 MR.  14  15 THE  16 MR.  17  18 THE  19 MR.  20  21 THE  22 MR.  23 THE  24  2 5 MR.  2 6 THE  COURT  GRANT  COURT  GRANT  COURT  GRANT  COURT  GRANT  COURT  GRANT  COURT  GRANT  COURT  GRANT  MR.  27  28  29  30 THE  31 MR.  32  33  34  35 THE  3 6 MR.  37  38  39  4 0 THE  41 MR.  42  43 THE  4 4 MR.  45  46  47  4111  Yes.  The next page would have Jimmy Williams at the top.  Yes.  The next page, that would be the back side of it,  would be -- it would say "Workers - Mary Duncan  stone," and it has, "Pay Back."  That's not what it says.  Yes.  It's on -- it's on a page -- my friend has  shown me there is a page that's got a column on it and  it's on the back side of that page.  Page that isn't  columnar.  Yes, thank you.  So that should actually be behind the page with  Jimmy Williams and Martha at the top.  Yes.  The next page would have at the top Ida's name and  the first name under that is Ida Austin.  Yes.  And turning it over, the next one will have Abe's  name and Abe Kenni.  Yes.  Then the next one -- sorry, am I?  REGISTRAR:  I have Jimmy Williams and Martha Danes on the  back of it.  GRANT:  Yes, that should be -- you already --  REGISTRAR:  And then the next one I have, this one with the  "Workers" on the back of it.  GRANT:  Yes.  That page that has the "Workers" on it has to  be taken out.  There were two pages of Martha Danes.  REGISTRAR:  Martha Danes.  GRANT:  Yeah.  One of those can be taken out.  So the next  one after Abe's name would be that noncolumnar page  with the first name on it Lucy Namox, and the figure  at the top seven -- 8133.25.  Don't see that one.  It's not a columnar page, My Lord, it's like this.  It's one of the few pages that doesn't have any  columns on it.  There may be -- the way the Registrar  has it.  Yes, all right.  And that goes -- there is nothing on the back of  that page because there is two pages of Martha Danes.  Yes.  The next page which would be the separate one would  be -- it appears that it's reversed, it says "For  October 10/87 - Mary Duncan & Madelaine Seymour," and  it starts with quantity of blankets.  COURT  GRANT  COURT  GRANT  COURT  GRANT 1  THE  COURT  2  THE  REGIS  3  MR.  GRANT  4  5  THE  REGIS  6  MR.  GRANT  7  8  9  THE  COURT  10  MR.  GRANT  11  THE  COURT  12  13  MR.  GRANT  14  THE  COURT  15  MR.  GRANT  16  17  18  THE  COURT  19  MR.  GRANT  20  21  22  23  THE  COURT  24  25  MR.  GRANT  26  Q  27  28  29  30  31  32  A  33  Q  34  A  35  36  37  Q  38  A  39  Q  40  41  42  A  43  Q  44  45  A  46  Q  47  THE  COURT  'Kerr Mugs, Thermos  One is -- it's,  'Need" and  4112  Yes.  RAR:  Yes.  And behind it should be page 2 of that, says  "Quan.," "Price Each," and "Total."  RAR:  They are backwards.  They are backwards I guess, sorry.  Yes, I can  arrange -- we can arrange to change those around in  the break.  The one that goes first is this one?  Yes.  After the one Mary Duncan comes  Jugs"?  Yeah.  Kerr mugs, 84 Kerr mugs.  Yes.  Then we have the last few pages,  again, not columnar.  It starts with  underneath that is "Bread."  :  Yes.  :  And behind that is -- the back side of that is  "Soup, marg. 2 pots."  And the next page at the top is  "Bowls - 1 full box."  And the last page is Bulkley  Valley Wholesale invoice.  :  So I have an extra page, a duplicate page starting  Martha Danes?  Yes.  And that can be discarded.  I informed my  friends of that as well.  Now, what I would like you to do, is to turn --  Mrs. Wilson-Kenni, is to turn it over -- well first of  all, I would like you to explain if you've seen this  document before?  Yes.  Can you tell the court what it is?  This is a copy of the record that was kept by our  bookkeeper that was hired to look after writing down  these expenses at that feast of October 10th, '87.  And this is the feast on October 10th of '87?  Yes.  Okay.  Now I would like you to turn it over, the  first, the second, the third, to the fourth page, the  one that starts "Ida's Name"?  Yes.  What -- can you explain to the court what that page  represents?  Well —  Do you have it, My Lord?  :  Yes. 1 MR.  GRANT  2  3 THE  COURT  4  A  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  Q  19  A  20  Q  21  22  A  23  Q  24  25  A  26  Q  27  28  A  29  Q  30  A  31  Q  32  33  A  34  35  36  37  Q  38  39  40  41  A  42  43  44  45  Q  46  A  47  Q  4113  :  When I say four pages, it's the fourth plasticized  page.  Actually, would be the seventh page.  :  Yes.  Says "Ida's Name," and then just below that it says  "Cora's Name," that's another one of my sisters who  received a name at that same feast.  And these amounts  that you see there are the amounts of money that was  collected.  And when that amount is collected, then  what happens is the money is used to call out the  different chiefs names to validate Ida's name.  What -- by saying that, say for instance they will  call out a chief's name, that chief says something  about Ida's name, and then that way it keeps that name  in his mind.  And when he does that, one of our own  people will go over and give him a certain amount of  money as a gift.  That's what this money here is  collected for.  And it seems to be totalled as $389 there?  Yes, for that one.  Now, was this Ida's name that was being given in  Spookw's house?  Spookw's house, yes.  Okay.  What about Cora's name that's referred to  there, was that in Spookw's house or --  Yes.  Okay.  Now, I notice when you go down that column,  number 9 under Ida's name is Alfred Joseph?  Yes.  That is Gisdaywa?  Right.  Can you explain to the court why Alfred would  contribute to Ida's name in Spookw's house?  Well, that's the way it's always been.  Like if Spookw  has a feast then Gisdaywa would put in their Hawal, or  if Gisdaywa has feast then Spookw people put in their  Hawal.  We help one another that way.  Now I would like you to turn that page over to what  would be page 8, and under "Abe's name."  Now, what -- can you explain to the court what  that page represents?  It's the same as what I describe for Ida's name.  It's  used for that same purpose, you know, valuating the  name that he has received, and now the people will  know that Abe has this name.  And what -- and that was a name in which house?  That -- Abe's name is in the house of Gisdaywa.  Okay.  Why was Abe given a name in Gisdaywa's house 1  2  A  3  4  5  6  7  Q  8  9  A  10  11  Q  12  A  13  Q  14  A  15  Q  16  17  A  18  Q  19  A  20  21  22 MR.  GRA1  4114  and Ida in Spookw's house at the same feast?  Because when we had a meeting before the feast was  going to take place, when we were setting the date for  it, we decided that -- that we would combine the feast  for Mary Duncan's stone and also the stone for  Madelaine George Seymour.  Mary Duncan, you've already indicated, that was Mary  Wilson before?  She used to be Mary Wilson, she is Mary Duncan, and  she was my cousin.  And she was in your house?  House of Spookw.  And Madelaine George was in the house of?  Gisdaywa.  Gisdaywa.  You said, "We met before the feast and we  decided to combine these"?  Um-hmm.  Who do you mean by "we"?  Well, the members of Spookw and members of Gisdaywa  that were immediately, you know, concerned about these  two stones and responsible for them.  :  Okay.  I would ask that tab 4 be marked as the next  23 exhibit, My Lord.  24 THE REGISTRAR:  Be Exhibit 317, tab 4.  25  26 (EXHIBIT 317 - Tab 4 of Mrs. Wilson-Kenni's Book of  27 Documents)  28  29 THE COURT:  May I just inquire whether, therefore, these records  30 in tab 4 are records kept of a joint feast between the  31 two houses of Spookw and Gisdaywa?  32 THE WITNESS:  Yes.  33 THE COURT:  All right, thank you.  Would this be what has been referred to as a feast  book for this feast, or an excerpt from a feast book?  Well, this -- I had our bookkeeper that we had hired  for this purpose to use a columnar pad so that it  would make it easier for her to break it down into the  different categories.  Like, for instance, you will  see in the front here --  You can refer to the first page, if you want.  Yeah.  It's divided into food, goods and cash, and  then the total, like, for each person.  And by "goods"  we mean different material goods, clothing or blankets  or appliances, things like that, that we just put it  under the one heading, "goods."  And then, of course,  34 MR.  GRANT  35  Q  36  37  A  38  39  40  41  42  Q  43  A  44  45  46  47 1  2  Q  3  4  5  A  6  Q  7  8  9  10  11  A  12  13  14  Q  15  16  A  17  Q  18  19  20  21  A  22  23  24  Q  25  26  A  27  Q  28  29  A  30  31  Q  32  33  A  34  35  Q  36  37  A  38  Q  39  A  40  Q  41  42  43  44  A  45  46  47  4115  the cash, and then the total of each person.  Okay.  Now, so this would be -- this record would be  the feast record -- at least all the columnar pads,  the feast record for this feast?  Yes.  Okay.  Now I would like you to refer over to -- I  guess it would be page -- the fifth plasticized page  where the columnar pads end, and there is a -- the one  that starts with Lucy Namox.  Was that part of the  feast record or was that something done separately?  Oh she -- the bookkeeper was keeping a balance of what  was -- what cash was left as we were paying -- doing  the pay out.  So that's part of the feast record itself that the  bookkeeper kept?  Yes, yes.  Going to the next page, there is again another  columnar page, says "For October 10/87 - Mary Duncan &  Madelaine Seymour Memorial Stones," that's two pages.  Was that part of the feast record?  No.  That's my only personal record that I kept on the  goods that Wilfred -- that my brother Wilfred and my  daughter Debbie had accumulated for this feast.  So these were your own records in preparation for the  feast?  Yes.  Okay.  Turning to the next -- and that's the same with  both pages there that are columnar?  Yeah.  Says page 1 and then before it it says page 2  in this book here.  Yes.  It's obverse and Madam Registrar appreciates  that.  You will notice on page 2 where it's divided up here,  like food, goods, and that.  Oh, that's on the bottom where it says "Wilfred,"  "Deb," and "DWK"?  Yes, yes.  And DWK is yourself?  Yes.  And on the next page it has "Need" and it starts with  bread and it goes for three pages where there is some  notations.  Again, is this part of the feast record or  your own record?  Oh, no.  This is -- this is what I had written down  before -- in our meeting.  When Gisdaywa and some of  his members and we of the Spookw members had a meeting  about what were the basic things that we needed for 1  2  3  4  5  6  Q  7  A  8  9  10  Q  11  A  12  Q  13  14  A  15  Q  16  A  17  Q  18  19  20  A  21  22  Q  23  A  24  25  Q  26  27  A  28  29  Q  30  A  31  32  33  34  35  36  Q  37  A  38  Q  39  40  41  A  42  43  44  Q  45  A  46  47  4116  the feast itself, in the way of food -- like you'll  see most of this is food like bread, crackers, fruit,  sugar, and then of course there is soup and bread.  I  guess the only thing I didn't put down was tea, coffee  and juice.  All right.  But that -- these are what we had written down, but  that also I didn't write down in here what other  people brought in, like, within our clan.  Um-hmm?  Not necessarily within our house but within our clan.  Okay.  So this, again, was it prepared at the time of  the feast or before the feast?  This page here where it says "Need"?  Um-hmm?  No, that was before the feast.  Okay.  What about the page starting with "Bowls," is  that part of that record as well?  That was  prepared --  That was just what we needed and we were figuring out  how much we would need.  I see.  I think that's both Ida and I both scribbling on that  one.  And then the last page, the invoice from Bulkley  Valley Wholesale, what was that?  Don't you want to know why there is bubble gum on  here?  Should I ask?  Well that's -- that was bought for Abe.  He's a little  boy, eh, and when he is going to hand out something --  when they are children like that, they usually hand  out candy, you know, and in this case we got this  bubble gum that had the little fancy bubble gum, so we  got some of that for him and he handed that out.  When he got --  Besides -- yeah, besides the materials.  Okay.  The last page, the wholesale -- Bulkley Valley  Wholesale invoice, was that -- that obviously wasn't  part of the feast record itself?  No.  That -- I don't know why that's in there, but  it's just some of the things that we got at the  wholesale.  Okay.  But it wasn't necessarily all of what was brought to  the feast. There is more than that, because some of  the people bought their goods in the local stores in 1  2  Q  3  4  A  5  MR.  GRANT  6  7  THE  COURT  8  MR.  GRANT  9  THE  COURT  10  MR.  GRANT  11  Q  12  13  14  15  16  17  A  18  Q  19  20  A  21  Q  22  A  23  24  Q  25  A  26  Q  27  A  28  Q  29  A  30  31  32  33  34  Q  35  A  36  37  Q  38  39  A  40  Q  41  42  43  44  45  A  46  Q  47  A  4117  Smithers and Hazelton.  Was this purchased -- this particular invoice, was it  paid for by yourself or --  Yes, I picked this one up.  Okay.  So subject to my friend -- I believe I've  already introduced it as an exhibit.  Yes.  My Lord.  It's in.  But now the witness has explained in detail what the  exhibit consists of.  Is this the -- would this be the entirety of the  written record that -- when I say the written record,  that is your -- the feast records of what was put in  for this particular feast?  Yes, I think so.  Okay.  As well as your notes that you took in  preparation for the feast?  Yes.  The only thing I noticed here --  Which page are you referring to?  I wasn't too concerned about it, because this -- this  page where --  Lucy Namox is on the top?  Let's see.  The fifth plastic sheet here.  Yes?  Where Lucy Namox is on the top of the list.  Um-hmm?  There is the Marvin George there on the bottom of the  page, and she started to put a number in there, one.  There -- that should have been 135 for materials from  the Smithers Lumber Yard, and that -- that figure that  you see, 5352.25 would be minus 135 there.  Okay.  That's the only thing.  Other than that, that is  complete.  I see.  And that was a payment made to Marvin George  for materials that he purchased?  Yes.  It was picked up at Smithers Lumber.  Okay.  Now, you indicated in evidence that you were  adopted into Gisdaywa's house.  Do you recall about  how old you were when that happened?  Were you an  adult or is this when you were still a child, or was  it before or after your ear-piercing ceremony?  Oh, it was after the ear-piercing ceremony.  Um-hmm?  Gee, in mid-'50's, I think.  I can't remember the 1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  THE  MR.  THE  THE  MR.  4118  exact year.  Q   Okay.  And do you know why you were adopted in --  first of all, who -- how was that arranged that you be  adopted into Gisdaywa's house?  A  Well, my grandmother and Sylvester, it was arranged  between them.  Q   That's Sylvester George?  A   Sylvester George.  Q   And he is a member of Gisdaywa's house?  A   Yes.  Q   Um-hmm?  A  And like I said, they helped one another in feasts  that were put on, and like I said before, Gisdaywa's  house was quite small, and this was one of the ways  that we could just be able to help him.  Q   Did you have children at the time you were adopted, or  was this before you had children?  No.  It's 1955 or something like that.  Okay.  It's way before that.  Sorry?  1955.  Way before I had any children.  Thank you.  A  Q  A  COURT:  GRANT:  WITNESS  COURT:  GRANT:  Q  But you've given evidence yesterday that you are now  in the house of Spookw?  A   Yes.  Q   When did that change occur that you went back to  Spookw from Gisdaywa?  A   1975.  Q   1975?  A   Yes.  Q   And what happened for that change to occur?  How did  you go back into Spookw's house, in other words?  A   Oh, that was when we were putting on a feast, stone  feast for my uncle.  Q   Um-hmm?  A   Joe, Joe Wilson, and that's -- it was his name that  Wilfred got Wo'o, and that was one of the things that  you have to do to finalize that name.  You see he had  that name given to him when my uncle first died, and  it's not -- the work isn't finished until that stone  is put up.  That's -- that's how we say it:  The work  is not finished until that stone it put up.  And so in  1975, it's -- I think that's when we put that stone  up.  That stone has the white wolf on it, my Uncle 4119  1 Joe's stone.  2 Q   Can you tell -- what's the significance of having a  3 white wolf on the stone?  4 A   That's our crest.  5 Q   When you say "our", are you referring to your clan or  6 your house?  7 A  White wolf -- our house.  8 Q   Spookw's house?  9 A   Yes.  10 MR. GRANT:  Did you need a spelling for that name or do you have  11 it, My Lord, Wo'o?  12 THE TRANSLATOR:  259.  13 MR. GRANT:  14 Q   259.  So if you were adopted back into — or moved  15 back into Spookw's house in 1975, by that time you did  16 have children; is that right?  17 A   Um-hmm.  18 Q   When their children were born, under Gitksan and  19 Wet'suwet'en law, were they in Gisdaywa's house or in  20 Spookw's house?  21 A   They are in Spookw's house.  Because I wasn't --  22 that -- you know, when people are adopted like that or  23 given names like that in another house, there are  24 usually conditions mentioned, and they will say  25 whether the children are also going to be members.  26 Q   Okay.  27 A  And in my case it was just myself, and so with Ida, it  28 was just with her.  Her -- she had the children  29 already and -- but her children were not -- were not  30 adopted into that house, they remain Spookw.  It's  31 just Ida herself that was under Gisdaywa.  32 Q   Now, do you know Mabel George?  33 A   Yes.  34 Q   What house was she born into?  35 A   She was born into the house of Spookw.  36 Q   And did anything happen to her in terms of her house  37 membership?  38 A   She is adopted into the house of Gisdaywa.  39 Q   And when did that occur?  40 A   Oh, I'm not too sure.  In early 50's, I think.  41 Q   Yes?  42 A  And there again it was Sylvester, and at that time he  43 asked Johnson Alexander.  44 Q   That's Sylvester George?  45 A   Yes.  46 Q   The person from Gisdaywa's house?  47 A   Yeah. 1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  2 4 MR.  25 THE  2 6 THE  27 THE  2 8 MR.  2 9 THE  3 0 MR.  31  32  33 THE  34 MR.  35  36 THE  37 MR.  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  4120  Q   And Johnson Alexander, I believe you indicated, held  the name Spookw?  A   Yes.  Q   Okay.  And where -- where did that occur where  Sylvester and Johnson Alexander arranged for Mabel  George's adoption?  A   In Kispiox.  Q   Now once again, did Mabel George have children at the  time of that adoption?  A   I think so.  Q   Were her children -- did her children --  A   Her children are not included in that, it's just  Mabel.  Q   Okay.  You indicated that you -- in 1975, is that when  you got your present name?  A   Yes.  Q   Okay.  And is there a person who holds the name  Kameaks?  A   Yes.  Q   Who is that?  Today, I mean?  A   Today, Rita David.  Q   And which house is she in?  A   Gisdaywa.  GRANT:  I would ask for Exhibit 62 (2), please.  COURT:  What was that name, please?  WITNESS:  Kameaks.  TRANSLATOR:  265.  GRANT:  265, sorry, My Lord.  COURT:  Thank you.  GRANT:  I'm showing -- just showing you for a moment Exhibit  62 (2).  I don't know if the court has a copy.  He  doesn't have a copy.  COURT:  No, I don't have a copy.  GRANT:  Well I have a copy that the court can look at of 62  (2) .  COURT:  Thank you.  GRANT:  Q   Now on that exhibit, it indicates on -- again on the  back row, you referred to this yesterday, was yourself  and beside you, this is on -- beside you on your left  would be Wilfred Wilson; is that right?  A   Yes.  Q   And that's a correct representation of your seating in  a feast in Moricetown?  A   Yes.  Q   Now, with reference to this chart, can you tell the  court where you sat when you held the name Kameaks? 1  2  3  A  4  5  6  Q  7  8  A  9  Q  10  11  A  12  Q  13  A  14  Q  15  A  16  17  Q  18  A  19  20  21  22  Q  23  A  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  Q  33  A  34  35  Q  36  A  37  Q  38  39  40  41  42  43  A  44  Q  45  46  A  47  Q  4121  And if there is another name there now, can you refer  to it?  I sat in front of Sylvester George there, and right in  front of him you see the name Rita David there, that's  where I used to sit.  Okay.  And you sat there from the time you were  adopted in 1950's until 1975?  Yes.  And then is that -- was it after that feast in 1975  that you moved over to this far right-hand side?  Yes.  Okay.  And that's another thing too.  When you are seated --  Yes?  -- the first time you come into the feast after you  have received your name --  Yes?  -- you have to do the same thing again where your  immediate clan -- house members and the clan members  as well, but usually the first ones that get up is  immediate house members, eh.  Um-hmm?  And then the rest of the clan, they make up a  collection, they take up a collection and this is then  counted, and then it's announced that this is the  first time that -- say, for instance, that I am  sitting down, and this is where I will be sitting, and  after this is said then the money that was collected  is given to the hosts of the feast that we are guests  at, where I'm first being seated.  You'll see on here  Ida Austin, she is sitting in front of Margaret --  Yes?  -- Austin.  Now, since she got her name now, she is  going to be sitting over here, over where it says --  Madelaine Dennis?  Where it says Madelaine Dennis.  That's on the far right-hand side of the back row, My  Lord, the witness is indicating.  So this, I -- if I  recall correctly, this -- this Exhibit 1 tendered on  June 18th, '87, in this trial in Smithers, and so at  the time that exhibit was tendered, that would have  been where Ida Austin was sitting; is that right?  Yes, yes, that's where she was sitting.  But since that time there has been this feast and she  has moved over?  Yes.  Okay. 1  A  2  3  Q  4  A  5  6  7  Q  8  9  10  11  A  12  Q  13  14  15  16  17  A  18  19  Q  20  A  21  22  Q  23  A  24  25  26  Q  27  A  28  29  Q  30  A  31  32  Q  33  34  35  36  A  37  Q  38  A  39  Q  40  41  A  42  43  4 4 MR.  GRANT  45 THE  COURT  46  47 THE  WITNE  4122  She hasn't -- she hasn't come to a feast yet in  Moricetown to validate that seat.  But that is where she will sit?  The very next feast that we go to and that is hosted  by a clan other than the Gitdumden, that's what will  happen.  Did you describe what happened when you first sat at a  feast after you took the name Yaga'lahl, did the same  thing happen?  Did that happen to you when you took --  were given the name Kameaks?  Yes.  Now, before we leave that chart, just to avoid having  to pull it out again, there is no place there on that  chart with a reference to Spookw.  If Spookw goes to a  feast in Moricetown, can you indicate to the court  where he would sit?  He would -- they would put a seat there right next to  where it says Wilfred Wilson.  Yes?  And it will be between Wilfred and Sophie Ogen, where  it says Sophie Ogen here.  Yes?  There will be a seat placed there.  Another thing, you  know, if -- for instance, you see a name there that  says Gyologyet, eh, Gordon Hall.  Yes?  Now if Mary McKenzie comes to the feast, what they  will do is they'll put a chair next to Gordon here.  Between Gordon and who?  And -- let's see.  To the left would be between Gordon  and Roy, I think.  Okay.  It's -- is it correct from what you are saying,  that where the label on Exhibit 62, tab 2 is,  Gitdumden, that is the back of the hall, that is,  these people would be facing in that direction?  This would be against the wall here.  The wall would be at the bottom of the page?  Yes.  And so the people would be facing towards the top of  the page?  Yes.  The way I'm sitting here now, that would be the  back of the wall here and then the front row, those  people would be facing the same way.  :  Okay.  :  So both rows would face the front at the top of the  plan?  3S:  Yes. 4123  1 THE  MR.  2  3  4  5  6 MR.  7 THE  8 THE  9 THE  10 MR.  11 THE  12 MR.  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  COURT:  GRANT:  Q  Thank you.  A  GRANT:  COURT:  WITNESS  COURT  GRANT  COURT  GRANT  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  And there is no table, or are there tables at these  feasts?  No, no.  Okay.  Could I have exhibit --  Sorry, no tables at these feasts?  No.  I see.  the feast in Moricetown we are talking.  This is  Yes.  Could I have Exhibit 2, tab 3, please.  Now this is a  seating chart of the feast held by -- hosted by the  Lax sal in Gitanmaax which has been introduced in  evidence through Mrs. McKenzie.  It's the diagram  three, actually, tendered February 12, '88, it's a  corrected version.  I believe we have another copy of  it.  I have a copy for the court.  Do you recognize this seating chart?  Have you --  first of all, have you been to feasts in Gitanmaax?  Yes.  And do you recognize that seating chart, Exhibit 2,  tab 3?  This chart?  Yes?  Yes.  Now at the bottom it's -- for your information, it was  given in evidence that it's a seating diagram for head  stone feasts hosted by Lax sal in Gitanmaax.  I don't  mean do you recognize every position there, but just  do you recognize that as representative of the seating  in Gitanmaax?  Yes.  Now, in Gitanmaax they use tables; is that right?  Yes.  Okay, now --  They never -- they didn't always use tables, though,  because I remember in feasts when I used to go in the  old Gitanmaax hall down in Gitanmaax, that I used to  sit on the floor --  Um-hmm?  -- beside my grandmother, and there wasn't any tables  then.  And this is when you were a child?  Yup.  Would this have been before -- would this have been 1  2  A  3  Q  4  5  A  6  Q  7  8  A  9  Q  10  A  11  12  13  14  15  Q  16  A  17  Q  18  19  20  Q  21  A  22  A  23  Q  24  A  25  Q  26  27  28  29  30  31  A  32  Q  33  A  34  35  Q  36  A  37  Q  38  A  39  Q  40  41  A  42  43  Q  44  A  45  Q  46  47  A  4124  after the time of your ear piercing as well as before?  No, before.  Do you remember going to feasts after your ears were  pierced in Gitanmaax?  Yes.  Did they use tables -- well, when did tables start  being used?  That's just recent, just recent.  Okay.  That's just recent.  I know after that Gitanmaax hall,  I think it burned down, the old hall, it's after that.  I don't -- I can't remember what year that burned  down.  It's just after that that they started using  tables .  So it was after the burning of the old Gitanmaax hall?  Um-hmm.  Okay.  Now at the top of Exhibit 2 (3), in front of  you, is a seating of Lah gii boo, and at the head of  that is the name Spookw (Steve Robinson).  Um-hmm?  Now is that where Spookw would sit?  Um-hmm.  See that?  At the very bottom is the door?  Yes.  Now this -- this seating chart -- or this hall is a --  the door is on the side rather than the end of a long  hall, isn't it?  I mean, in other words, this chart  that shows the door on the longest side is different  than some of the other halls.  Do you understand what  I mean?  Well if you are looking at this room --  Yes?  -- the door would be like -- it won't be over at the  side it would be almost to the middle.  I see.  Down there.  Okay.  Like this would be --  You are indicating the courtroom which is a long --  longer and narrower room?  No, that hall is wider.  I'm just talking about where  the door would be.  It would be in the centre of the wall?  Yeah.  Okay.  Now, where do you sit in feasts hosted by the  frog clan in Gitanmaax?  Okay. 1  Q  2  A  3  Q  4  A  5  Q  6  A  7  Q  8  9  A  10  Q  11  A  12  Q  13  A  14  Q  15  A  16  Q  17  A  18  MR.  GRANT  19  20  21  THE  COURT  22  MR.  GRANT  23  Q  24  25  26  27  A  28  MR.  GRANT  29  30  31  THE  COURT  32  MR.  GRANT  33  Q  34  35  36  37  A  38  Q  39  A  40  41  Q  42  A  43  Q  44  45  A  46  Q  47  A  4125  And your brother Wilfred?  Spookw would sit here, right in the mild.  Right in the middle of that table you are indicating?  And then my brother Wo'o.  On Spookw's right or left side?  As I'm looking at this sheet --  No.  If Spookw is sitting here, would he be on  Spookw's right hand or left hand?  He would be on his right.  Right hand, yes?  Yes.  Okay.  And I would be on the right of my brother, Wilfred.  Um-hmm.  Wo ' o.  Um-hmm, okay.  And then Margaret sits next to me.  :  Okay.  I would ask with leave of my friends that the  witness can mark this where she would sit.  I think it  may be appropriate.  :  Yes.  Could you just put a -- the exhibit has three on the  upper corner, so if you could just put a "Y" where you  would sit and a "W" where Wilfred would sit,  representing those two -- your two Gitksan names?  How about "S" for middle?  :  And "S" in the middle, that's right.  "S" is where  Spookw would sit.  My Lord, would you like an  opportunity to look at this?  :  No, I've seen it.  Thank you.  Now on this seating chart, Exhibit 2 (3), where would  Gisdaywa sit in a feast put on by the frog clan in  Gitanmaax, or does he attend such a feast, such  feasts?  Yes, he attends.  Yes?  He would be in one of these tables over here that's  marked Lah gii boo.  You are indicating one of the tables to the left?  Yeah.  This usually for the visitors, eh.  Okay.  So you are indicating the long table on the  left-hand side?  Yeah.  Then you see this is Gyolugyet table here.  Yes.  And he would go here and any other -- any other 1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  11 THE  12 THE  13 THE  14  15 THE  16 THE  17 MR.  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  2 9 THE  3 0 MR.  31 THE  32 MR.  33 THE  34 MR.  35 MR.  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  4 7 MR.  4126  Gitdumden would go here.  Q   Okay.  So you are indicating the table that actually  is unlabelled on the far left-hand side, Gisdaywa and  other Gitdumden would be there?  A   Yes.  Q   And that's a table for visitors to Gitanmaax?  A   Yes.  Q   Okay.  A  Well, guests at the feast at Gitanmaax.  Q   Yes, okay.  COURT:  You said on the far left, did you,  WITNESS:  I sit to the right of my brother  COURT:  No, no, I'm talking about where --  would sit, far right or far left?  WITNESS:  On this sheet, left.  or far right?  where Gisdaywa  COURT:  GRANT:  Q  A  Q  A  A  Q  A  COURT  GRANT  COURT  GRANT  COURT  GRANT  GRANT  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  GRANT  Far left, thank you.  Maybe you can just put  would sit so that it's  On this table?  Yes.  Somewhere -- he usually sits  there.  Okay.  Can you just put a --  for that?  No.  Please?  I believe  Are you  a one at the  clear on the  table where he  record?  right in the middle  do you want to put a "GW  he sits somewhere in here.  finished with that, Mr. Grant?  With that particular exhibit?  Yes?  I will be referring back to it.  All right.  Later on.  Do you know Cecilia George?  I did know her.  I was a child.  I remember her.  Okay.  She is now deceased?  Yes.  She was -- she was Sylvester George's mother.  Okay.  And she was from which house?  Gisdaywa.  And Gitksan or Wet'suwet'en?  Wet'suwet'en.  Okay.  Do you recall what her name -- her Wet'suwet'en  name, I guess it would be, was?  Unl oh' I think, Unl oh'.  Mr. Mitchell? 4127  1 THE TRANSLATOR:  101.  2 MR. GRANT:  3 Q   Thank you.  101, My Lord.  4 Now, you described that Gisdaywa sat in Gitksan  5 feast at Gitanmaax, he sits there today.  Did Cecilia  6 George have a place to sit in the Gitksan feast hall?  7 A   Yes.  8 Q   And where would she sit?  9 A   I don't know where she sat because I was very young.  10 I can't remember -- I don't remember --  11 Q   Okay.  12 A   -- where she sat.  But I do know that she did have a  13 seat, my grandmother, she -- she was quite close to  14 her too.  15 Q   Okay.  16 A  And I remember them talking, like they would talk  17 about feasts.  They talk about all sorts of things and  18 I know that -- that that was one of the things that  19 was quite clear to me, that this particular lady had a  20 seat in the feast house in Gitanmaax, but I can't say  21 where it was.  22 Q   Okay.  But this would be -- when you say she had a  23 seat in the feast hall in Gitanmaax, would this be  24 something different than the seat of the visitors?  25 A   Yes.  It's a definite seat.  26 Q   It was a definite seat that she had, right?  27 A   Yes.  28 Q   Evidence has been led earlier in this trial about  2 9 Hawal, H-A-W-A-L.  3 0 A   Um-hmm.  31 Q   Do you know what is meant by Hawal?  32 A  Well, that's the support that's given to the clan  33 that's putting on the feast, the clan members  34 themselves that put in any goods or cash or whatever,  35 that's their Hawal, that's the support that they give  36 to the feast.  37 Q   I believe you still have tab 5 and tab 4 in front of  38 you, Exhibit 317.  Could you just refer to the court  39 to an example there, if there is any, of Hawal that  40 was given?  Just take one or two names.  41 A   The feast?  42 Q   I think it was some months ago when the court heard  43 about Hawal, so just --  44 A   Feast?  45 Q   Yes.  Exhibit 317?  46 A   I don't know what 317 is.  47 Q   I'm sorry, tab 4.  Sorry, I'm saying that for the 1  2  A  3  Q  4  5  A  6  Q  7  A  8  Q  9  A  10  Q  11  A  12  13  14  Q  15  16  17  A  18  19  Q  20  A  21  22  23  Q  24  A  25  26  27  28  29  Q  30  A  31  Q  32  A  33  Q  34  A  35  Q  36  A  37  Q  38  39  A  40  Q  41  A  42  43  Q  44  A  45  Q  46  A  47  Q  4128  record.  Yes, tab 4, of your feast book?  Okay.  Can you give an example of -- if there is any Hawal  that was given there?  Yeah.  There is on next page there, there is --  Page 2?  Freddy Joseph.  Freddy?  Gordon Hall.  Okay.  Well all of this is Hawal, it's just that -- just that  some of them are what you call haircut, children of  the father children.  Okay.  You referred to Freddy Joseph and Gordon Hall.  How are they related to Gisdaywa and Spookw and why  would they contribute?  Well, they're of the same clan as the Gitdumden or Lah  gii boo clan.  I see.  And when the clan puts on the feast, the clan members  from, you know, any one of these villages contribute  what ever they can contribute.  Okay.  Sometimes it's in cash, sometimes it's in food,  sometimes in goods, and sometimes in every category.  Like you notice on these sheets that there is some in  just cash only, and then you see some where there is  food and some goods and then cash.  Okay.  It just depends on what they can help out with.  Okay.  Now, Gordon Hall is Gyologyet?  Yes.  And he is a Gitksan or Wet'suwet'en?  Gordon Hall?  Yeah?  He is --  Or the name that he holds, is that in a Gitksan or  Wet'suwet'en house?  It's in a Wet'suwet'en house.  Uh-huh?  But that's tricky one, because I think Gordon is  Gitksan.  He himself is Gitksan?  Yes.  But he holds a name in a Wet'suwet'en house?  Yes.  And which house is it? 1  A  2  MR.  GRANT  3  THE  COURT  4  MR.  GRANT  5  THE  COURT  6  MR.  GRANT  7  THE  COURT  8  MR.  GRANT  9  Q  10  11  12  13  14  A  15  Q  16  A  17  Q  18  19  20  21  A  22  23  24  Q  25  A  26  27  28  Q  29  A  30  31  32  33  34  Q  35  A  36  Q  37  38  A  39  Q  40  41  42  A  43  Q  44  45  46  A  47  4129  Woos, I think.  I think it's Woos.  W-O-O-S, My Lord.  Two "0"s or one "0"?  Two "0"s.  It's being firmly indicated to me.  I have it here as one "0".  You are referring to a draft copy, My Lord.  Okay, two "0"s.  All right, thank you.  Consistency is something we are trying to achieve, in  spellings, anyway.  And Freddy Joseph, you said he contributed Hawal  at that feast on October 10th, '87.  Is he Gitksan or  Wet'suwet'en, and what house does he hold?  Wet'suwet'en.  He is from house of Madeek.  Okay.  And he is in the same clan?  Yes.  Okay.  Now, with that background can you explain to  the court -- or with that -- do you know why Cecilia  George had a name -- had a seat in the Gitanmaax feast  hall?  It probably has to do with the Hawal that she gave.  You know, the work in the feast hall is always  recognized.  Uh-huh?  The people watch each other, nothing goes unnoticed.  It's -- it's a feast hall and you have to notice  what's going on in there.  Uh-huh?  And I think that's why some -- like, for instance,  that particular house was small and because of the  help back and forth between the two houses, that is  the reason that the names also, you know, went back  and forth.  Uh-huh?  Because of that.  Well, that's between the houses of Gisdaywa and  Spookw?  Well, for example, Gisdaywa.  Okay.  Do you know, did Cecilia George, do you know  who -- what house would have arranged for her to have  a seat in Gitanmaax?  Probably Spookw.  Do you know if Cecilia George received any other  recognition by Spookw's house in terms of rights or  privileges?  Seems to me there is one thing that was mentioned to  me, was that she was allowed to use certain pieces of 4130  1 the territory.  2 Q   Of whose territory?  3 A   Of Spookw territory.  But don't ask me where, because  4 I don't know.  5 Q   But was this explained to you by your grandmother?  6 A   Yes.  7 Q   Was Cecilia ever a member of Spookw's house, to your  8 knowledge?  9 A   Not to my knowledge.  10 Q   Now, you've gone back and you've explained adoptions  11 between Gisdaywa and Spookw's house, and you've  12 explained these different relationships.  How far back  13 would these connections between Gisdaywa and Spookw  14 go?  15 A   I would believe it would be hundreds of years.  There  16 is a lot of, you know, when -- when you think about  17 it, the connection doesn't happen just with any one  18 particular house.  Some of these connections develop,  19 like, with some of the other houses but within the  20 same clan, and these things have happened, oh, years  21 and years, years ago.  And the only thing is it's just  22 recent that, you know, we are -- we are -- very recent  23 that we are writing these things down.  24 Q   You are referring to your feast book?  25 A   That's right.  26 Q   Exhibit 317.  27 A   But those things happen a long time ago, and you know,  28 the helping back and forth within the clans, it's --  29 it's hard to talk about because it's just done without  30 really trying to make some big, long story out of it.  31 You just do it because that is what you are supposed  32 to do.  I don't know how to explain it.  33 If something happened, for instance, at home, and  34 it's in the Lah gii boo house or Gitdumden house -- or  35 clan, I mean, then I -- first thing I would do is find  36 out who and when and all information I can, and then  37 make sure there is someone -- especially if I'm down  38 here -- make sure that there is someone representing  39 me there.  In this case, it would be my daughter who  40 is up there.  We try -- you know, we -- we have to be  41 responsible within our own clan, and specially with  42 those who help us.  We have to make sure that we are  43 there to help them should they ever be in trouble,  44 too.  And I wouldn't say trouble, but usually the  45 feasts that happen are funeral feasts and, you know,  46 funerals are very expensive, and I don't really know  47 how the non-Indian people do it, specially if there 4131  1 are a lot of debts within the family, I think it would  2 be a very big hardship.  But we are able to survive  3 those hardships because there is a group that gets  4 together and they work together when something happens  5 within the clan.  It's not just the immediate family,  6 the immediate family are concerned, you know, like  7 with the arrangements and making sure the right people  8 are hired and things like that.  But the clan gets  9 right in there too when the feast is on, they -- they  10 find out, they let them know when these different  11 things are happening, and the smoke feast.  You  12 announce when the feast is going to be — I mean the  13 funeral is going to be, and then when the funeral  14 feast is going to take place, what time, where, you  15 know, and all these things are made known.  And they,  16 right away, they prepare and they bring whatever they  17 can bring.  And sometimes for those who are not able  18 to bring anything, they help by working.  There is a  19 lot of things to pack around, specially when you  20 are -- when you are feeding the guests, there is these  21 big boxes of apples and big boxes of bread and  22 sometimes there is canned foods, food stuffs that is  23 brought in, all these different things, you need the  24 manpower to pack these, and that is also recognized.  25 You keep an eye on who does that.  Even if they don't  26 put money or goods in, you keep an eye on who's  27 helping you by being there and working.  You know,  28 physical presence of the people.  29 Q   Well just on that point, when Mary -- this feast --  30 the feast book was of the head stone for Mary Duncan,  31 and she was your friend who was from Spookw's house.  32 She did -- her funeral feast was at some time before  33 that; is that right?  This -- this was for a head  34 stone feast which was at a different time than the  35 funeral feast?  36 A   Yes.  37 Q   Did Gisdaywa participate in the funeral feast for Mary  38 Duncan?  39 A   Yes.  40 Q   And did Gisdaywa's house assist Spookw's house in that  41 feast?  42 A   Yes.  43 MR. GRANT:  Possibly be time for the morning break?  44 THE COURT:  Yes.  Before we adjourn, Mr. Grant, I just want to  45 clear something up.  You're in the house of Spookw?  46 THE WITNESS:  Yes.  47 THE COURT:  And what is your clan? 4132  1 THE WITNESS:  Lah gii boo and it's called Gitdumden in the  2 Wet'suwet'en.  3 THE COURT:  That's what I was coming to.  Now — so Mr. Alfred  4 Joseph who is Gisdaywa is in the house of  5 Kaiyexweniits?  6 THE WITNESS:  Yes.  7 THE COURT:  And that's in the clan of Gitdumden?  8 THE WITNESS:  Yes.  9 THE COURT:  Is the clan that each house is in in Lah gii boo and  10 Gitdumden, is that the same clan or are they different  11 clans with similar names, or closely related?  12 THE WITNESS:  Lah gii boo is the wolf clan and the Gitdumden is  13 also the wolf clan, it's just that it's Gitksan and  14 Wet'suwet'en words.  15 THE COURT:  Are they the same clan?  16 THE WITNESS:  They are the same clan.  17 THE COURT:  They are not different clans with the same name?  18 THE WITNESS:  No.  They are wolf clan.  19 THE COURT:  So you regard yourself as in the same clan as Mr.  20 Alfred Joseph?  21 THE WITNESS:  Yes.  If I go to — well, for instance, if Alfred  22 Joseph goes to a feast in Gitanmaax and he comes  23 through the door and he is one of the guests, then he  24 comes to the door and there is usually people standing  25 there that's going to announce the entrance, they  26 will -- if one of them happens to be not sure what  27 clan he is, and other one will say Lah gii boo.  And  28 same way if I go to Moricetown, they call me  2 9 Gitdumden.  30 THE COURT:  All right.  But so far as you are concerned, the  31 clans which have a different name --  32 THE WITNESS:  Um-hmm.  33 THE COURT:  -- Lah gii boo and Gitdumden, are the same clan?  34 THE WITNESS:  Yes.  35 THE COURT:  All right.  36 MR. GRANT:  One being Wet'suwet'en and one being Gitksan.  I  37 think you have that point, My Lord.  38 THE COURT:  Yes, yes.  39 I've tried my best to concentrate on the evidence  40 but I have had some other thoughts this morning, and  41 on reflection, I don't think I will ask this trial to  42 stand down.  I just think this one is a different  43 situation from the other long cases that are running,  44 and I'm not going to ask you to make the inquiries  45 that I mentioned earlier this morning.  46 MR. GRANT:  Yes, My Lord.  47 THE REGISTRAR:  Order in court.  Court stands adjourned for the 4133  1 morning recess  2  3 (PROCEEDINGS ADJOURNED AT 11:15 a.m.)  4  5 I hereby certify the foregoing to be  6 a true and accurate transcript of the  7 proceedings herein transcribed to the  8 best of my skill and ability.  9  10  11  12  13  14 Toni Kerekes,  15 O.R., R.P.R.  16 United Reporting Service Ltd.  17  18  4134  19 (PROCEEDINGS RESUMED PURSUANT TO ADJOURNMENT)  20  21 THE REGISTRAR:  Ready to proceed, my lord.  22 THE COURT:  Mr. Grant.  23 MR. GRANT:  Thank you, my lord.  24 Q   You know Mrs. Rita George?  25 A   Yes.  26 Q   And what house is she in?  27 A   She's in Gisdaywa's house.  28 Q   And was she born into Gisdaywa's house or adopted into  29 that house?  30 A   No, she was born into Spookw house and adopted into  31 Gisdaywa's house.  And in her case one of her sons was  32 also adopted into Gisdaywa's house.  It's Brian.  33 Q   Yes.  Now, in the case of these adoptions from one  34 house into another who makes the decisions if a person  35 is going to be adopted from one house to another?  36 A  Well, the two -- the two chiefs usually, and the  37 members are usually asked and they talk amongst  38 themselves about it, like they have a little meeting  39 on it before the feast, and that's the — if the  40 decision is made then that's what happens at the  41 feast.  42 Q   Is this what happened in respect to these adoptions  43 you described?  44 A   Yes.  As far as I know, yes.  45 Q Now, I'd like to refer you back to tab 4, Exhibit 317.  4 6 And you've already given evidence that Mary Duncan was  47 from your house and Madeline was from Gisdaywa's 1  2  3  4  5  6 THE  COURT  7  A  8 MR.  GRANT  9  Q  10  11  A  12  Q  13  14  15  A  16  Q  17  18  A  19  Q  20  21  A  22  Q  23  24  25  A  26  Q  27  A  28  Q  29  30  A  31  Q  32  33  A  34  35  36  Q  37  A  38  39  40  41  42  Q  43  44  A  45  Q  46  A  47  Q  4134  house.  Now, regarding the first four pages, that  would be the first two plasticized sheets as amended  which starts with the first one Ron Sebastian and goes  down to the end of the last one Matilda Wilson.  Let  me make sure that that's right.  :  Yes, it is.  No.  I'm sorry.  It goes to John Olson.  Yeah, John Olson below that name.  :  All right.  John Olson.  Right.  Yes.  Okay.  Now, can you -- were these contributions that were put  in at this feast?  Yes.  Now, were these contributions put in for Madeline  George, that is to the Gisdaywa headstone, or for Mary  Duncan, the Spookw headstone?  Could you repeat that question?  Well, who were the contributions for?  You've  indicated this is --  It's for both -- both stones.  Okay.  So that all the contributions were dealt with  for both houses at the same time, is that correct?  Yes.  Okay.  And at the bottom of that page, the fourth  page, there's a figure of 22,950.09.  Does that  reflect the total cash or total of all contributions?  The total 22,950?  Yes.  That's the total of the food, goods and cash.  Okay.  Now, on the next page, the page starting with  Jimmy Williams.  Yes.  Going to N.B. Sterritt, what does that reflect?  What  does -- it appears to be donations under cash.  Well, that's just -- I hate to tell you, but this is  just in the wrong order, that's all.  It's before the  total.  I see.  Should be before the total.  This is part of this page  one, two, three, four.  This should be before this  page here, before the total.  This is not in addition.  It's -- this 22,000 total here includes this page  here.  Okay.  So that total on that page is part of the  contributions --  Yes.  — That total the 22,000?  Yes.  Now, then I'd like you to turn over to the next page, 4135  1 the page entitled "Workers" at the top?  2 A   Yes.  3 Q   Can you explain what that reflects?  4 A  Well, that's the money that was paid back, as well as  5 the -- the goods that were given to these people who  6 did the work.  Like you see it says "Workers Mary  7 Duncan Stone", those were the people who were hired to  8 do all of the work.  Now, when you say headstone feast  9 that doesn't mean just headstone.  That means also the  10 work that was done around the grave site.  11 Q   M'hm.  12 A   Preparing the grave site, and preparing the fence  13 around the grave.  14 Q   M'hm.  15 A   Like you'll see there one, you'll see a number five,  16 Roy Michell's name.  17 Q   M'hm.  18 A   You'll see fence in front of there.  19 Q   M'hm.  20 A  And that's part -- you'll see the total 200, and  21 there's another there 50.  22 Q   M'hm.  23 A  And that is what he would have contributed.  And that  24 is paid back.  25 Q   M'hm.  26 A   That 50 that's right below that would be -- that  27 should have been on top of pay back.  That's after all  28 the payments had been made that was sort of like  29 interest that was paid on top of the cash that was  30 given to us to pay for the stone, for the work that  31 was done on the grave site, and also the transporting  32 of the stone to the grave site.  That's -- that's what  33 that group of people did there.  34 Q   Okay.  35 A   Like it says transport from Defrane.  Well, Defrane,  36 that's the funeral home in Smithers that -- where we  37 got the stone from.  38 Q   Okay.  I notice down there number 18 is Nancy  39 Superneault.  What was she paid for?  40 A   Oh, she sang the Saneel before the stone was moved up  41 to the grave site.  42 MR. GRANT:  Do you have a number for that, Mr. —  43 THE TRANSLATOR:  275.  4 4 MR. GRANT:  275.  45 Q   Now, can you explain why Nancy Superneault was the one  46 to sing the Saneel?  47 A   Nancy was the wife of Spookw, Johnson Alexander, and 4136  1 he taught her to sing the Saneel, and she knew it.  2 And you see, not everyone is a singer.  As you know  3 even in the non-Indian society not everyone is a  4 singer.  It's the same with us, different people that  5 sing and they're hired in the feast to sing.  6 Q   M'hm.  7 A  And they're -- they're given a gift for providing that  8 service.  Sometime in cash or goods or both.  And  9 that's -- that's what Nancy did.  She sang the Saneel  10 before the stone was moved for Mary, because Mary was  11 in the house of Spookw.  12 Q   Now, on that page underneath that there's hall rent  13 and then there's Madeline George stone.  Do the names  14 under that -- what do they reflect?  15 A   Under Madeline George stone those names are the same  16 as explained about Marys.  It's the people who are  17 hired to do all of those services that you see there;  18 to buy the stone, and to transport it, even unloading  19 of that stone, and then the washing of the stone after  20 it had been set up at the grave site.  21 Q   So as I understand your evidence the -- the pay ins,  22 the contributions at this feast were made all at once  23 for both houses?  24 A   Yes.  25 Q   But the pay outs were made separately for Spookw and  26 Gisdaywa's house?  27 A   Yes.  28 Q   Could you just tell the court at this headstone feast  29 was the headstone actually in the feast hall at one  30 part of it or was it set up before the feast?  31 A   No.  It come -- it -- we had the stones delivered  32 from -- from Smithers about oh, couple of weeks before  33 the actual setting up of the stones at the grave site  34 and we -- we kept them at the -- at the band office in  35 the -- in the storeroom area in the band office where  36 nothing, you know, no one would touch it or anything,  37 and they were set up outside on a table so that they  38 would be viewed by the people who were coming to this  39 headstone ceremony.  4 0 Q   M'hm.  41 A  And from there it was placed on the back of the  42 pick-up.  That's where you see the transport.  That  43 means also bringing it up to the grave site.  44 Q   Okay.  45 A  And from there it's taken up to the grave site.  Now,  46 halfway up to the grave site there is another thing  47 too where the spouses of the host, host clan, the 1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  Q  15  16  A  17  18  19  Q  20  A  21  MR.  GRANT  22  THE  COURT  23  MR.  GRANT  24  THE  COURT  25  26  27  28  MR.  GRANT  29  THE  COURT  30  A  31  MR.  GRANT  32  Q  33  A  34  Q  35  A  36  37  Q  38  A  39  40  41  Q  42  43  44  A  45  Q  46  47  4137  spouses like the Andumenuk they -- we stop halfway up  to the cemetery, and the people who are following  these trucks, they're usually walking behind these,  and they travel very slowly and we escort the trucks  up on foot.  We stop halfway and they're given  something to drink, and then usually juices or  whatever kind of pop or whatever that they bought.  It's up to the Andumenuk themselves what they bought.  They hand it out to all of these people following  these vehicles going up to the grave site.  And then  you continue on after that, and then continue on right  until we get to the grave site and then the stones are  placed.  What's the significance of the Andumenuk giving out  drinks part way up?  Why is that done?  It's always been done like that because it is a way,  quite a ways to get up to the cemetery.  And I don't  know, it's just done.  Okay.  But this is part of the role of the Andumenuk?  That's right.  I'm sorry.  Did you have that number for the court?  Yes, it's 200.  Thank you, my lord.  I'm not exactly sure what Andumenuk means.  Spouse  of host clan.  Does it mean spouse of the deceased in  the same clan or does it mean a collection of spouses  of all the spouses?  :  Right.  :  And if so what gender in which clan?  Well, like for --  Can you explain Andumenuk?  Well, for instance my husband.  Yes.  Would -- he did buy some cases of pop and that to hand  out.  Yes.  And also my brothers wife, and also Gisdaywa's wife.  Anyone who is married to a Lah gii boo or Gitdumden.  Anyone who is married to Lah gii boo or Gitdumden.  Okay.  The examples you've given were either the  spouses of persons in Spookw's house or Gisdaywa's  house.  Yes.  Let me just to clarify to use another example.  What  about the spouse of Gordon Hall, who you said was in  the wolf clan but a different house, would his spouse 1  2  A  3  THE  COURT  4  5  A  6  THE  COURT  7  A  8  MR.  GRANT  9  Q  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  A  17  18  Q  19  A  20  21  Q  22  A  23  24  Q  25  A  26  Q  27  A  28  Q  29  A  30  31  MR.  GRANT  32  THE  COURT  33  MR.  GRANT  34  Q  35  A  36  Q  37  A  38  39  Q  40  A  41  Q  42  A  43  Q  44  45  46  A  47  Q  4138  give Andumenuk?  Yes.  :  Andumenuk is a collection of persons who are married  to members of the clan whose member has died?  Yes.  :  Thank you.  Yes.  Now, I'd like to refer you to page three of the feast  book.  That is the -- when I say page three it's  actually the second plasticized sheet.  Now, maybe  this is one that's backwards on yours so -- no, Madam  Registrars.  On the bottom of that page there's a  reference to Unamanuk.  U-N-A-M-A-N-U-K.  Can you  explain what that is, and the persons under that?  Well, they are the spouses of our people in our clan.  Like it says right there that first one Walter Joseph.  Yes.  That should be Walter Joseph Jr., because he's married  to Virginia.  Virginia?  Virginia Duncan.  She is Mary Duncan's daughter.  And  Mary Duncan's stone was going up, you see.  And Mary Duncan -- Virginia is in Spookw's house?  Spookw's house.  Yes.  And you'll see Ricky Alfred's name there?  Yes.  And he's the spouse of Charlene, another of Mary  Duncan's daughters.  Sorry.  My lord, you have the references?  Yes.  Yes.  And Helen Joseph?  It's Gisdaywa's wife, Helen Joseph.  Charlie Austin?  It's -- that's my step-father.  Margaret Austin is  house of Spookw, so he's Andumenuk there for Margaret.  And Don Kenni is your own husband?  Yes, my own husband.  And Andy George, that's the husband of Rita George?  Yes.  Now, going -- if you just turn that page over, I just  want to be clear, where it says Martha Danes at the  top.  Yes.  Is that Andumenuk too or -- 1  A  2  Q  3  4  5  A  6  7  8  9  Q  10  A  11  THE  COURT  12  13  A  14  MR.  GRANT  15  Q  16  17  18  A  19  Q  20  A  21  22  23  24  25  26  THE  REGIS1  27  THE  COURT  28  29  30  31  A  32  THE  COURT  33  MR.  GRANT  34  Q  35  36  THE  REGIS1  37  MR.  GRANT  38  Q  39  40  41  A  42  Q  43  44  45  46  47  A  4139  No, that's not Andumenuk.  Okay.  And then there's the other page which you said  was out of order which starts with Jimmy Williams.  Is  that Andumenuk?  No.  Oh, wait a minute.  Some of them are, yes.  Oh,  that's where that page is supposed to go.  Right.  See  Andumenuk and then that continues Andumenuk there.  See and the page -- in the page before.  Oh, I see.  That's where it continues.  One, two, three.  :  All right.  So it should go ahead of the last page  we just looked at, should it?  That's right.  What you would do is you would stop at the bottom of  that previous page Frank Alex, the page before, and  then the next one would be Jimmy Williams?  That's right.  Okay.  And then that's where that total comes in here.  This  should be here.  We'll get it straight yet.  This page  here should be put here.  This page.   I think it's  gonna get -- see this is Andumenuk and this is  continuing of this here.  This should be over here.  Like this should be here.  rRAR:  So it has to come right out of the page.  :  Then I suspect that the page that was just replaced,  that is the second page starting with Martha Danes is  the page that has the total that should have been  included with the grand total, is that right?  That's right.  That's the last.  :  All right.  That's fine.  Thank you.  So, yes, just to be clear, I think Madam Registrar has  sorted out the exhibit for you.  rRAR:  No, it will have to be done after lunch.  In any event, it would go to Frank Alex, and the next  page over would be Jimmy Williams at the top and the  next page after that would be Martha Danes?  Yes.  Yes.  Now -- okay.  Now, then I would refer you to  that page after Ida's name and Abe's name, the page  starting Lucy Namox.  Now, is that contributions or  payments, and how does that relate to the page  referring to workers payments, if at all?  The one where it says buying Madeline George's stone? 4140  That's right, yes.  Oh, she is just keeping track of the balances.  The  bookkeeper is just keeping track of the balances as  payments were made.  :  These are payments?  Yes.  :  With a running balance?  Yes.  Running balance.  It refers to Lucy Namox, Marvin George and Herb George  buying Madeline George's stone?  Yes.  Why would they be the ones involved in the purchase of  her stone?  'Cause that's her father's clan.  Okay.  And is that the same with the persons buying  Mary Duncan's stone?  That's right.  Okay.  And I believe you've already corrected that  page under Marv George.  At the bottom there should be  a reference to $135 --  Yes.  -- You've indicated?  Okay.  Now, did you know Thomas  Wright?  I knew of him.  I didn't know him personally.  Okay.  But you knew who he was?  I knew who he was.  And he's now deceased?  Yes.  He died recently.  Is he a Gitksan or a Wet'suwet'en?  Gitksan.  Do you know if he was a chief, and what chief's name  he held?  He was Guuhadak.  :  Of that house or that was his name?  That was his name.  The house of Guuhadak.  And —  :  Could we have a name for that?  39 THE TRANSLATOR:  Yes, I can spell it out.  4 0 MR. GRANT:  Go ahead.  41 THE TRANSLATOR:  G-U-U-H-A-D-A-K.  42 THE COURT:  Sorry.  G-U-U —  43 THE TRANSLATOR:  G-U-U-H-A-D-A-K.  44 THE COURT:  A-K.  That's house or name?  4 5       A   It's a name.  4 6 THE COURT:  Both?  47       A   Both.  1  Q  2  A  3  4  5  THE  COURT  6  A  7  THE  COURT  8  A  9  MR.  GRANT  10  Q  11  12  A  13  Q  14  15  A  16  Q  17  18  A  19  Q  20  21  22  A  23  Q  24  25  A  26  Q  27  A  28  Q  29  A  30  Q  31  A  32  Q  33  34  A  35  THE  COURT  36  A  37  Q  38  THE  COURT 1 MR.  GRANT  2 THE  COURT  3 MR.  GRANT  4  Q  5  6  7  A  8  Q  9  10  A  11  12  Q  13  14  A  15  Q  16  17  A  18  Q  19  A  20  Q  21  22  23  24  A  25  Q  26  27  A  28  Q  29  A  30  Q  31  32  A  33  34  Q  35  36  37  A  38  39  Q  40  A  41  42  43  44  Q  45  A  46  Q  47  A  4141  That's a named plaintiff, my lord.  Thank you.  Did Thomas Wright, was he related to Spookw?  In other  words, are Spookw and Guuhadak related, those two  houses?  Yes, they were close.  Do you know who presently is holding or caring for the  name Guuhadak since Thomas' death?  Well, Steve Robinson is taking care of the name right  now.  Did you know, or did your grandmother tell you of a  person named Beal, B-E-A-L, Muldoe?  Yes.  And was Beal Muldoe -- what -- do you know what  chief's name he held?  Oh, I think he was also Guuhadak.  Okay.  And was Beal Muldoe's brother Tommy Muldoe?  Yes, I think so.  And was Tommy Muldoe -- well, let me refer you to the  genealogy, Exhibit 315, tab 1 at page one.  I'm sorry.  It is not a reference to it.  Do you know what name  Tommy Muldoe held?  I think he might have held Guuhadak too.  Now, on page one there is Frank Clark and Edward  Clark?  M'hm.  Do you know if either of them -- what names they held?  Guuhadak again.  Okay.  Did either of them hold or care for the name  Spookw?  Both Edward Clark and Frank Clark did care for the  name of Spookw.  Okay.  And can you explain to the court why they were  involved with the name Spookw?  What was happening at  that time?  Well, at that time I believe that Johnson Alexander  had that name from Johnny Patsy.  M'hm.  And then Johnson lived in Burns Lake for quite  sometime.  I don't know exactly how long he lived up  there.  And during his absence they sat in the feast  with that name.  And did Johnson Alexander return from Burns Lake?  Yes.  And what happened then?  Well, he's still Spookw. 1  Q  2  3  A  4  Q  5  A  6  Q  7  8  9  A  10  Q  11  12  A  13  14  Q  15  A  16  Q  17  18  A  19  Q  20  21  A  22  Q  23  A  24  Q  25  A  26  Q  27  A  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  Q  35  A  36  37  Q  38  39  A  40  Q  41  42  43  A  44  45  46  47  4142  Did Frank and Edward Clark -- where did they sit, or  whichever one held it when he returned?  Where Spookw sat, and he would sit right next to him.  That was after he returned?  Yes.  I just refer you to page 14 of the genealogy.  There  is a reference to Johnson Alexander.  Is that the  person you were referring to?  Yes.  And just — they have a B 1882 and D 1971.  Is that  correct, the date of death?  I don't think that's the right date, the D there where  it says 1971, 'cause I think he died in '72.  Now --  April of '72.  And he had three different persons who he was -- three  different wives?  Yes.  And Nancy May, is that the Nancy Alexander who sang at  the feast last October?  Yes, Nancy Alexander.  She is Superneault.  She is Nancy Superneault?  Yes.  S-U-P-E-R-N-E-A-U-L-T?  Yes.  But her maiden name was May?  Yes.  See when that -- that name, when you say taking  care of it there has to be like it's from -- from  Gitanmaax, and when he's away, you know, such a long  period there always has to be someone to be able to  speak on behalf of that house.  And Spookw, you know,  being the head chief he always has to have someone,  you know, to speak on his behalf in the feast.  M'hm.  And that's -- that's why there has to be someone  taking care of that name.  Is Henry Wright the brother of Thomas, or was he the  brother of Thomas Wright?  I think so, yes.  And did your mother Margaret, talking about your  natural mother now, did your mother Margaret have any  dealings with Henry Wright?  Did they --  They -- Henry used to always invite them to where --  to a place where he was fishing, and that was out in  Gisk'ek'aas.  And Margaret and Charlie would both go  and visit him out there, and he would provide them  with fish -- fish for the family, and they would share 4143  1 it with the rest of us.  2 THE COURT:  I didn't get the name of the location.  3 MR. GRANT:  Yes, Mr. Mitchell is just getting the spelling of  4 Gisk'ek'aas.  5 A   Gisk'ek'aas.  6 MR. GRANT:  Mr. Mitchell, do you wish me to try that?  That's a  7 Gitksan word.  8 THE TRNASLATOR:  Gisk'ek'aas.  9 A   Gisk'ek'aas.  10 THE TRANSLATOR:  Gisk'ek'aas.  11 A   Yes.  Let's see?  12 THE TRANSLATOR:  G-I-S-K-'-E-K-'-A-A-S.  13 THE COURT:  A-A-S?  14 THE TRANSLATOR:  Yes.  15 MR. GRANT:  And that's a reserve or that's a village, I should  say, out -- that's up the Salmon River Road, is that  right?  Yes.  And what house was Henry Wright in?  Guuhadak.  I refer you to tab 4, and the third page in, Exhibit  317.  Exhibit 4?  Tab 4, yes.  Thank you.  The third page in.  At the very top there is the name Edward Wright.  M'hm.  And does that indicate he made a contribution of $20  at this headstone feast?  Yes.  Is he related to either Henry or Thomas --  Yes.  — Wright?  I think he's one of the brothers.  Okay.  So what house is he in?  Guuhadak.  And what clan is Guuhadak's house?  Lah gii boo.  And that's a Gitksan house, is it?  Yes.  Now, I'd like you to refer to tab 3 of the book.  Do  you recognize that photograph?  Yes.  And who is that man?  That's my uncle, Johnson Alexander.  16  Q  17  18  19  A  20  Q  21  A  22  Q  23  24 THE  COURT  2 5 MR.  GRANT  2 6 THE  COURT  2 7 MR.  GRANT  28  Q  29  A  30  Q  31  32  A  33  Q  34  A  35  Q  36  A  37  Q  38  A  39  Q  40  A  41  Q  42  A  43  Q  44  45  A  46  Q  47  A 4144  1 THE COURT:  Johnson Alexander?  2 A   Yes.  3 MR. GRANT:  I ask that that be marked as the next exhibit, my  4 lord.  5 THE REGISTRAR:  318, tab 3.  6  7 (EXHIBIT 318:  Photograph)  8  I remember him very well.  He was a really powerful  speaker in the house, in the feast house.  He spoke  both Gitksan and Wet'suwet'en.  And I used to see him  speak and hear him speak.  He could stand there and  speak in Gitksan language and turn around -- he used  to have his hand behind his back and stand there.  He  was quite tall, big, and he was about six foot two or  something like that.  He was quite tall.  He would  speak in Gitksan and turn around and he would speak in  Wet'suwet'en, and then sometimes he would go further  and speak in English.  It was the same way with my  grandmother.  She was like that too.  She used to do  the same thing in the feast.  Martha Yaga'lahl?  Yes.  :  What's the building in the background?  That's their -- that used to be a feast -- feast house  over in Kispiox.  It's no longer there.  :  Yes.  Thank you.  Now, do you know -- well, he's wearing something which  I'm sure as my friend will say will speak for itself.  Can you explain what that is, the -- the arm or the  shoulder --  : The sash.  :  Sash.  That's right.  Thank you, my lord.  I was  trying to get the right word.  I didn't want to say  regalia.  Well, it says Chief Spookw 1908 on there.  Apparently  it was given to him at that time.  I don't know the  story behind that sash.  :  You don't know the story?  No, I'm afraid not.  :  Is that what it says on there?  This is the first time I've seen this picture.  :  All right.  :  If I may say for the record, my lord, just to turn  to the spelling.  Gisk'ek'aas is number 334 in the  Gitksan.  It was spelled K-I-S-G-A-G-A-S.  9  A  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  Q  23  A  24  THE  COURT  25  A  26  27  THE  COURT  28  MR.  GRANT  29  Q  30  31  32  33  THE  COURT  34  MR.  GRANT  35  36  37  A  38  39  40  THE  COURT  41  A  42  THE  COURT  43  A  44  THE  COURT  45  MR.  GRANT  46  47 1  THE  COURT  2  MR.  GRANT  3  THE  COURT  4  MR.  GRANT  5  6  THE  COURT  7  MR.  GRANT  8  Q  9  A  10  Q  11  A  12  Q  13  A  14  Q  15  A  16  17  Q  18  A  19  Q  20  A  21  22  Q  23  24  A  25  Q  26  A  27  Q  28  29  30  31  A  32  Q  33  A  34  35  Q  36  A  37  Q  38  A  39  Q  40  A  41  Q  42  A  43  44  Q  45  A  46  THE  COURT  47  A  4145  What was that again?  K-I-S-G-A-G-A-S.  I say that with —  Yes.  An alternate spelling.  Well, it's a Gitksan word.  I thought it may assist  Mr. Mitchell.  :  Yes.  Today the name of Spookw is held by Steve Robinson?  Yes.  Before him who held the name?  John Patsy.  Before.  Oh, pardon me.  Take your time.  Steve Robinson's got it now.  Before him it was  Johnson Alexander.  Yes.  And before Johnson Alexander who held the name?  Well, when Johnson was living in Burns Lake --  Yes.  -- That name was cared for by the Clarks and Tommy  Muldoe.  Okay.  And when you refer to the Clarks you mean Frank  and Edward Clark?  Yes.  And they each took care of it at different times?  Yes.  Okay.  And what about before Johnson Alexander?  Well,  let me say this, did he hold the name at the same time  as the Clarks and Tommy Muldoe?  In other words, did  he receive the name earlier than that or after them?  He received it when John Patsy died.  He referring to Johnson Alexander received it?  Johnson Alexander received the name of Spookw when  Johnny Patsy died.  Do you know approximately when that was?  Around 1924, I think.  And are you related to John Patsy?  Pardon me?  Are you related to John Patsy?  Of course I am.  Okay.  How -- he was your --  He was my -- let's see.  There's great — there's my  great grandmother's brother.  Okay.  He was -- that's Mary Yaga'lahl's brother?  Yes.  :  Your great great grandmother's brother?  Yes. 1  MR.  GRANT  2  A  3  THE  COURT  4  MR.  GRANT  5  Q  6  A  7  Q  8  9  10  11  A  12  Q  13  14  15  16  A  17  18  Q  19  20  A  21  Q  22  23  A  24  Q  25  A  26  Q  27  A  28  Q  29  THE  TRANS  30  MR.  GRANT  31  32  THE  COURT  33  MR.  GRANT  34  THE  COURT  35  MR.  GRANT  36  THE  COURT  37  MR.  GRANT  38  Q  39  A  40  41  MR.  GRANT  42  Q  43  A  44  Q  45  46  A  47  Q  4146  :  My lord, I think —  No.  My great grandmother's brother.  :  Great grandmother's brother.  Your mother's mother's mother's brother?  I think that's the way it goes.  Right.  I refer you to page six and seven of the  genealogy, tab 1.  Page five, six and seven.  Now,  your grandmother or your great grandmother Mary  Yaga'lahl is on page five?  Yes.  And she is married to Abraham Wilson, and if you turn  over the page and follow that line across Johnny Patsy  was her brother.  Is that how its reflected, is that  correct?  That's right.  That's why I said my great  grandmother's brother.  All right.  Does Steve Robinson hold any other name  besides Spookw?  Well, he's caring for Guuhadak right now.  M'hm.  Is there any other name that he — that he  holds, to your knowledge?  Medigemgyet.  And do you know which house that name is in?  Medigemgyet?  Yes.  I'm not too sure, but I thought it was Guuhadak.  Okay.  LATOR:  Excuse me.  Give that spelling.  :  Do you want me to, or -- Medigemgyet I have as  M-E-D-I-G-E-M-G-Y-E-T.  M-I-D —  M-E-D —  I-G-E-M —  G-Y-E-T.  Yes.  And in the house of?  Guuhadak.  Do you know Gordon Johnson from Gitwangak?  Yes.  He's -- I think he's Malii.  I think his name is  Malii.  M-A-L-I-I.  And what clan is he from?  He is Lah gii boo.  Have you ever attended feasts put on by Gordon  Johnson?  Yes.  In Gitwangak.  In Gitwangak? 1  A  2  Q  3  4  A  5  Q  6  7  8  9  A  10  Q  11  12  13  14  15  A  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  2 6 MR.  GRA1  27  28  29  30  31  Q  32  33  34  A  35  36  37  Q  38  39  40  41  A  42  Q  43  44  A  45  Q  46  A  47  Q  4147  Yes.  What role, if any, do your house members, Spookw's  house members take in those feasts?  Well, we go to put in our Hawal at Gordon's feast.  Now, your evidence before the break, as I understand,  was Hawal -- or after the break was that Hawal was put  in by other clan -- members of other houses of the  same clan as the clan hosting the feast?  Yes.  That's right.  Is there a range in which if a certain  house is putting on a feast you would contribute more  than if another house is putting in a feast?  In other  words, is there a difference depending on which house  is hosting the feast?  I think so.  Some of the houses are closer somehow to  one another, because I know like with us, the only way  I can describe it, is like with us in Spookw, Gisdaywa  helps us out, and we help him out.  But also with us  in house of Spookw there's Kliiyem lax haa.  She  always takes part.  Anytime we put on a feast she is  always there.  And also Gyolugyet, Mary Mackenzie.  She is -- any time anything happens in our family,  like if there's a death in our family she is one of  the first ones to come to us, her and her daughter  Kwamoon.  :  Kliiyem lax haa is referred to in paragraph 8 of the  Statement of Claim, my lord, and Gyolugyet in  paragraph 13.  Mr. Mitchell also has a spelling for  you.  Oh, and Kwamoon is also referred to in paragraph  13 as K-W-A-M-O-O-N.  What about Mahleeh, would you assist to a greater or  lesser degree for Mahleeh's feast than say for Kliiyem  lax haa's feast?  Lesser. We would assist Kliiyem lax haa more. Like I  said, we -- every time something happens in our family  she's -- she's always there.  What about -- are there other wolf houses that you are  not as closely related to as say -- you say you attend  the feasts of Mahleeh.  Is that relationship closer  than with other Gitksan wolf houses?  Say that again?  Well, you've indicated that you are close -- that she  is always there when you refer to Kliiyem lax haa?  And Gyolugyet.  And Gyolugyet.  M'hm.  And there are other wolf houses of the Gitksan besides 1  2  A  3  Q  4  5  6  A  7  8  9  Q  10  A  11  Q  12  A  13  Q  14  A  15  Q  16  17  18  A  19  Q  20  THE  COURT  21  MR.  GRANT  22  23  THE  COURT  24  MR.  GRANT  25  Q  26  A  27  Q  28  29  A  30  MR.  GRANT  31  32  Q  33  34  35  36  37  A  38  Q  39  A  40  THE  COURT  41  MR.  GRANT  42  THE  COURT  43  MR.  GRANT  44  Q  45  A  46  Q  47  THE  COURT  4148  those two and Mahleeh, right?  M'hm.  Do you -- let me put it this way, if Mahleeh puts on a  feast like at Gitwangak are you always present or is  your house always represented at that feast?  Our house would be represented.  And sometimes I'm  also present, but there's always somebody there  representing our house.  Do you know Tenimghet?  Yes.  And that is Art Matthews?  Yes.  And that's a Lah gii boo house as well?  Yes.  Is your house -- is there any difference between your  closeness as represented in the feast hall at  Mahleeh's feasts or Tenimghet's feasts?  It's the same.  Now, who presently --  :  I'm sorry.  I don't have a spelling for Tenimghet.  :  Tenimghet is paragraph 6 of the Statement of Claim.  T-E-N-I-M-G-Y-E-T.  :  Thank you.  Who is the present holder of the name Kliiyem lax haa?  Eva -- Eva Sampson.  And it was held formerly by Martha Brown, who just  died last fall?  Yes.  Yes.  :  Could I have that Exhibit 2(3) I think it is again,  please.  This is the exhibit of the seating chart at Gitwangak,  or sorry -- Gitanmaax.  There's a reference there to  Guuhadak, Thomas Wright.  Does that show where  Guuhadak would sit in relation to Spookw at a frog  feast in Gitanmaax or Lax sal feast?  Yes.  Okay.  Now --  But Laak would be sitting here next --  This is Exhibit 2?  Exhibit 2(3), my lord, which --  Yes.  Thank you.  Now, just just put an L --  L there.  For Laak.  :  L is for Laak amoo (phonetic)? 1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  4149  A   No.  It's a name, a chief's name.  THE TRANSLATOR:  676.  MR. GRANT:  Q   And who holds that name?  THE COURT:  Sorry.  I don't — if I don't get it now I'll never  get it.  MR. GRANT:  Okay.  Just one moment.  I think that's the latest  addition --  THE COURT:  Yes.  Thank you.  MR. GRANT:  — My lord.  THE COURT:  Yes.  Thank you.  MR. GRANT:  Q   I'm sorry.  Who holds that name Laak today?  A   It was previously held by Bob Skawill, and right now  one of my brothers is preparing for that name.  Q   And what house is that name in?  A   Spookw.  THE COURT:  You show on Exhibit 2(3) where Laak sits at the  feast shown in exhibit -- in that exhibit?  MR. GRANT:  Yes.  Q   Can you just describe where he sits in relation to  Spookw and Guuhadak?  A   Laak sits to the left of Spookw right between Spookw  and Guuhadak.  MR. GRANT:  Okay.  Possibly now would be an appropriate time for  the break.  THE COURT:  Yes.  All right.  Thank you.  MR. GRANT:  My lord.  THE REGISTRAR:  Order in court.  Court will adjourn until two.  (PROCEEDINGS ADJOURNED)  I hereby certify the foregoing to be  a true and accurate transcript of the  proceedings herein to the best of my  skill and ability.  Peri McHale, Official Reporter  UNITED REPORTING SERVICE LTD. 1  2  3  THE  REGIS1  4  5  THE  COURT  6  MR.  GRANT  7  Q  8  9  10  11  12  13  A  14  THE  COURT  15  A  16  MR.  GRANT  17  Q  18  19  20  A  21  Q  22  23  A  24  Q  25  26  A  27  28  29  30  31  Q  32  33  A  34  Q  35  36  A  37  Q  38  39  A  40  Q  41  42  A  43  Q  44  A  45  Q  46  47  A  4151  (PROCEEDINGS RECONVENED AT 2:00 p.m.)  rRAR:  Order in court.  Delgamuukw versus Her Majesty  the Queen at bar, My Lord.  :  Mr. Grant.  Thank you, My Lord.  Before the lunch-hour, Mrs. Wilson-Kenni, we were  talking about the holders of the name Spookw, and you  had described how, I believe, Johnny Patsy held the  name Spookw before Johnson Alexander.  Who held the  name Spookw before Johnny Patsy?  Fanny Spookw.  :  Sorry?  Fanny Spookw.  That was your great-grandmother's sister that you had  referred to yesterday, was it, Margaret Yaga'lahl's  sister?  Yes.  She is referred to on page 32 of the genealogy.  Now,  do you know approximately when Fanny Spookw died?  Around 1911.  And before Fanny Spookw held the name, do you know who  held the name Spookw?  There was another Spookw, all I know is the Spookw and  that one died around 1895.  And then there was another  Spookw before that that -- the way I understood my  grandmother, there was Spookw for many, many years  before that.  Was there persons who held the name Spookw before the  arrival of the white man?  Yes, yes.  And was there a house of Spookw since before the  arrival of the white man?  Yes.  And was  arrival  Yes.  Now, do you know someone by the name of Billy Walter  or Billy Walters, or do you know of him?  Yes.  And how was he -- was he related to Johnson Alexander?  He was nephew of Johnson Alexander.  Okay.  Did he ever hold the name Spookw, that is Billy  Walter?  No.  there a Lah gii boo  of the white man?  clan since before the 1  Q  2  3  A  4  5  6  Q  7  A  8  9  Q  10  11  A  12  Q  13  A  14  Q  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  A  22  23  24  Q  25  A  26  27  28  29  Q  30  A  31  32  Q  33  A  34  Q  35  A  36  37  38  Q  39  A  40  41  42  43  44  45  Q  46  A  47  Q  4152  Can you tell the court, would he have possibly been in  line for that name?  Yes.  But at the time that Johnson Alexander passed  away, Billy was very ill and wasn't even able to even  make it to Johnson's funeral.  Do you know why he was ill?  Well, I was told by my mother that he had been mauled  by a grizzly bear.  But Billy Walter was a person in Spookw's house as  well?  Yes.  Is he still alive?  No.  He has passed away.  I would like to move to another area, and that's about  the feasts -- generally, about the feasts of your  house.  Can you tell the court some of the persons --  or some of the feasts that have been held, and for who  they have been held?  And start with funeral feasts  that -- I should -- to put it in context, in your  lifetime, feasts that you've been involved in?  Dear, there were so many.  Especially in the immediate  family, there were quite a number, you know, just in  the last 20 years.  Yes?  And that's only half of my lifetime, and it's a lot of  them to do with deaths in the family.  There is the  death of one of my younger brothers, his name was  Chucky, Chucky Austin.  Um-hmm?  And also my Aunt Josephine Wilson and my Uncle Matthew  Wilson.  Um-hmm?  My Uncle Willie Wilson, my Uncle Joe Wilson.  Um-hmm?  Then there were children.  When my mother's house  burnt down, there was three little children that died  in that.  There were feasts for those children?  Yes.  And also the deaths of my own children, my son  when he was two and a half, and my daughter, Donna.  And also my -- one of my cousins, Theresa, Theresa  Wilson, and of course there is Thomas Wilson, one of  my cousins that was Theresa's brother, and my cousin  Mary.  That was Mary Wilson?  Yes.  She was Mary Wilson Duncan.  For all these people there were feasts? 1  A  2  Q  3  A  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  Q  12  A  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  Q  24  25  A  26  27  Q  28  A  29  Q  30  A  31  Q  32  A  33  34  35  Q  36  A  37  Q  38  39  A  40  Q  41  42  43  A  44  Q  45  A  46  Q  47  A  4153  Those were funeral feasts, yes.  Okay.  And then we had head stone feasts also, afterwards,  for them.  And also there was one that we called the  family head stone, that was quite a large head stone  that had all the names of my great-grandfather and his  children on there.  Abraham Wilson, my greatgrandfather and his wife Mary, she was Mary Yaga'lahl.  She was the one we were speaking about yesterday that  died in child birth.  Right.  She had a little baby and that's mentioned on the  stone, and the names of my grandmother, my uncles are  all on that stone.  Plus the name of one of my aunts  that I never knew, died a long time ago, Elizabeth,  Elizabeth Wilson, and her husband's name, because he  is buried there also, William, William English.  And  also Abraham Wilson's brother, Joe Wilson, he is also  buried there.  And there was one of my aunt's  daughters whose name was Virginia Wilson, she was  buried in that same family.  That's quite a large plot  is on that stone.  Were your Uncles Willie, Matthew -- Willie and Matthew  recognized at that family head stone?  It's all written, all those names are written on the  stone.  The large -- it's quite a large stone.  And your grandmother?  Yes.  Your grandmother who raised you?  Yes.  Yes.  And also there is stone feast for my own children,  Donna May and Donald, and for those little children,  there were stone feasts for that too.  And these --  And the last one we did was for Mary, Mary Duncan.  And that's the one referred to at tab 4 of the feast  book?  Yes.  And were these head stone feasts, particularly, let's  say, this large family head stone feast, did this --  what village was that feast in?  We had the feast in Gitanmaax.  Okay.  And those people are buried?  In Hagwilget.  Hagwilget?  Yes. 1  Q  2  3  A  4  Q  5  6  A  7  Q  8  9  A  10  Q  11  A  12  Q  13  14  15  16  17  A  18  Q  19  A  20  21  22  Q  23  24  A  25  Q  26  27  A  28  Q  29  A  30  Q  31  32  A  33  Q  34  A  35  Q  36  37  38  39  A  40  41  Q  42  A  43  Q  44  A  45  Q  46  47  4154  And you've described in some detail Mary's feast last  fall?  Yes.  Were these feasts that you've now described, were they  all put on by your house, that is Spookw's house?  Yes.  And were any of those feasts, were those feasts  supported by Hawal by other people of the wolf clan?  Yes.  Both Wet'suwet'en and Gitksan?  Yes.  I ask the court to refer to page 15 of tab 1 of  Exhibit 315.  On page 15 is Sarah Walter and Donald  Walter and their children.  Is the Bill Walter  referred to there, is that the person who you were  referring to?  Yes.  Okay.  There is -- oh, there is one other one that I've  forgotten, that's my Uncle Joe's.  We had a stone  feast, that's another one.  Just to be clear, your Uncle Joe, that was your grandmother's brother?  Yes.  Was that stone feast different than this large family  stone feast?  Yes.  Okay.  And is Jenny Sebastian related to you?  Yes.  She is my aunt.  She is your aunt.  And was there a funeral feast for  her?  Yes.  And a head stone feast?  Yes.  And these feasts that you've talked about, all of  these names and all of these people, are these the  ones that you referred to that have happened in the  later part of your lifetime?  Yeah.  About the last 20 years.  I might have missed  out some, but I can't --  No.  But all of these ones did happen?  Yes.  And you attended those feasts?  Yes.  Okay.  I don't know, I don't think I've asked you, but  could you tell me what was the name that Ida got --  received in October of '87 in Spookw's house? 1  2 THE  3 MR.  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  12  13 THE  14 THE  15 THE  16 THE  17 THE  18 MR.  19 THE  2 0 THE  21 MR.  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  4155  A   Kalea, Kalea.  TRANSLATOR:  263.  GRANT:  Q   Thank you.  263, My Lord.  And you've already described the name your son Abe  got?  A   Yeah.  Holiits.  Q   Which was Holiits?  A   Cora, one of my sisters, is another one that had  received a name at that time.  Oh, yes.  What was that name that she got?  Luut k'al dawx.  Q  A  COURT:  WITNESS  COURT:  WITNESS  COURT:  GRANT:  TRANSLATOR:  Luut k'al dawx,  COURT:  Thank you.  GRANT:  Q  What was that again?  Luut k'al dawx.  No, who was that?  My sister, Cory.  Thank you.  I'm just waiting for Mr. Mitchell, My Lord.  L-U-U-T, K-'-A-L, D-A-W-X.  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  And do you know what that name means, Cora's name,  offhand?  It's like water frozen over.  You know, when it's cold  winter's night, you have glass of water out and there  is that thin film of water on it.  Like a thin layer of ice?  It's description of that thin layer of ice frozen  over.  Is that Wet'suwet'en or Gitksan words?  It's Gitksan.  Thank you.  And what about Ida's name?  That's the one I don't know, Kalea.  Is it a Gitksan or Wet'suwet'en word, do you know?  Kalea is Gitksan.  I would like to move to a different area, and I would  like to ask you some questions about where you live,  about Hagwilget.  You presently live in what is known  as the Village of Hagwilget; is that right?  Yes.  You have a house there?  Yes.  And can you tell His Lordship whose territory you live  on?  Spookw.  Is all of Hagwilget located in Spookw's territory?  Yes. 1  Q  2  3  A  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  MR.  macke:  12  13  MR.  GRANT  14  MR.  macke:  15  THE  COURT  16  17  MR.  GRANT  18  THE  COURT  19  20  MR.  GRANT  21  THE  COURT  22  23  MR.  GRANT  24  25  THE  COURT  26  MR.  GRANT  27  Q  28  29  30  A  31  Q  32  33  34  35  36  A  37  Q  38  39  40  41  A  42  Q  43  A  44  45  Q  46  A  47  Q  4156  Now, do you know how long the Gitksan and the  Wet'suwet'en have lived in the vicinity of Hagwilget?  I think they've lived there for hundreds of years.  There --apart from what my grandmother used to say  about the people of the area, they have always been  there.  Not only that, it's things like I've heard  that these digs that have been done from, you know,  anthropologists.  For instance, there is George  MacDonald that was involved in the digging of  Hagwilget Canyon that dated back 4,000 years.  \FZIE:  My Lord, I have to interrupt the witness on  this, please  :  But from --  \FZIE:  I object to this line of evidence.  :  Well I don't think Mr. Grant is pursuing the first  question, are you, Mr. Grant?  :  Sorry.  The — the first?  :  The witness said that she understands that Mr.  MacDonald's —  :  Oh, I'm not going to pursue that.  :  -- digging sustained a certain antiquity, you are  not pursuing that?  :  I'm not pursuing that, no, if that's what my friend  is concerned about.  No, no.  :  Yes.  But you understand from what your grandmother said,  that the Gitksan-Wet'suwet'en have lived there for  hundreds of years?  Yes.  I didn't depend on Mr. MacDonald to know that.  Right.  And what -- today in Hagwilget are there just  Wet'suwet'en people living in Hagwilget or are there  Gitksan?  Obviously you're Gitksan and you live there.  Aside from yourself, do other Gitksan live in  Hagwilget?  Yes.  There is a lot of Gitksan there.  Can you explain to the court by giving some examples  of who lives in Hagwilget, who would be Gitksan?  Just -- I'm not asking for an exhaustive list, but  some examples so the court can appreciate?  Well all of my brothers and sisters for one.  Yes?  My uncle, my two uncles, my mother, there is also  Elsie Sebastian and her family, they are Gitksan.  Elsie Sebastian lives in Hagwilget?  Yes.  And she has a number of children? 1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8 MR.  9  10  11 THE  12 MR.  13 THE  14 THE  15 THE  16 MR.  17 THE  18 MR.  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36 THE  37 THE  38 THE  3 9 MR.  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  4157  A   Yes.  Q   Number of boys?  A   Yes.  Q   And they are all Gitksan?  A   Yes.  Q   Do you know what house she is from?  A   I think Luutkudziiwas,  GRANT:  Luutkudziiwas.  Paragraph 19 of the Amended  Statement of Claim.  Do you wish a spelling now, My  Lord?  I thought we had it this morning, didn't we?  We may have, yes.  We had it yesterday.  But I can't find it  L-U-U-T —  — K-U-D-Z-I-I-W-A-S.  Thank you.  COURT:  GRANT:  WITNESS  COURT  COURT  GRANT  COURT  GRANT  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  And who else lives -- can you give us some other  examples of Gitksan persons who are living in  Hagwilget?  Well, there is Helen, Helen Joseph.  Alfred Joseph's wife?  band council at Hagwilget?  was set up as a reserve; is  Alfred Joseph's wife.  Yes?  And her children.  And which house is she from again  Wiiseeks.  And she is Gitksan?  Yes.  Okay.  Now, there is a  Yes.  And it's a reserve, it  that right?  A   Yes.  COURT:  Was it called the Hagwilget Reserve?  WITNESS:  Yes.  COURT:  Thank you.  GRANT:  Q Now, how big is that reserve?  A Hagwilget is about 306 acres.  Q   Now you've said that you live there and you live on  Spookw's territory.  Can you explain for the court why  you say that Hagwilget Reserve is in Spookw's  territory, and how Spookw and Hagwilget Village  relate?  A  Well, I think that the only way I can explain it is 1  2  3  Q  4  A  5  Q  6  A  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  Q  14  A  15  16  17  18  19  20  Q  21  A  22  23  Q  24  25  26  27  28  A  29  Q  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  A  38  Q  39  40  A  41  Q  42  43  44  A  45  46  47  4158  that just about everyone is related to one another in  some way.  Um-hmm?  On that reserve.  Um-hmm?  Like, for instance, I was saying yesterday that Helen  was my cousin, Helen Joseph who was married to  Gisdaywa.  And then of course with my brothers and  sisters and the marriages there, have us connected to  other clans, you know, because of the marriages.  And  so because of that there is a lot of relatives in that  small village.  Um-hmm?  I think there is probably only one family that's not  related and even then there is -- let's see.  Like,  for instance, the Dominies, they come from Babine, but  even there, the Dominies' granddaughter is married to  one of my cousins, so that sort of forms a bit of a  relationship there.  Um-hmm?  So even with that there is -- everyone is related,  like I said, to one another somehow.  Okay.  You understand that in this case, the chiefs,  including Spookw, are asking this court to make  declaration of recognition of their ownership and  jurisdiction over their territory; you understand  that?  Yes.  And the question I have is with respect to Spookw.  Can you explain to the court what -- how that will  work if the court makes such a declaration, how it  would affect, for example, you living in Hagwilget and  all the other people living in Hagwilget which you say  is in Spookw's territory?  How will that work for the  Gitksan and the Wet'suwet'en?  Do you understand my  question?  I think I do.  In other words, if this court declares that Spookw has  ownership and jurisdiction over his territory --  Yes.  -- and you say that his territory includes Hagwilget,  what would happen? What will happen to the people of  Hagwilget and how -- and Spookw?  Well if you think that Spookw is going to go and chase  them all out of there and say, "Go back to your own  territory," I'm afraid that's not the answer.  You  know, I realize that the different families there, 4159  1 they belong to different clans and they are  2 represented by their different houses, but still, like  3 I said, it's a small village and a lot of the people  4 are related to one another, and there is a lot of  5 sharing going on there.  And the sharing is one of the  6 things that I've always seen happen.  I've seen it in  7 the way that the people react with each other in time  8 of sorrows and time of joy, and I can't see that  9 changing.  10 And also, if Spookw was to say, "You have to all  11 go back to your own territory, " I think that would be  12 an embarrassment to his clan and especially --  13 especially his house, not necessarily his clan, but  14 especially the house of Spookw.  Because those people  15 in the house of Spookw are the ones who are closely  16 related to the people in Hagwilget.  It's -- it's  17 sharing type of living that has always gone on.  I  18 can't see it changing.  19 Because you know, one of the things that I know  20 myself, when we put on feasts, that's one of the  21 things that I speak on, is that, you know, when feasts  22 happen we have the workers.  Workers are the ones who  23 are just learning about their culture, their  24 background, they're the workers.  Like I said, some of  25 them they pack around things for us, those are the  26 workers.  They are learning and it takes a good many  27 years.  So when we have a feast, I don't mind when I  28 see young people without names coming into the feast  29 house.  I'm always happy to see that, because then it  30 gives me a chance to stand up and speak to them.  You  31 know, we set up places for them where they sit and  32 they listen, they sit and they listen and I explain to  33 them, you know, the -- step by step why different  34 things are happening.  Because that feast house is a  35 training place for these young people, and when I'm  36 going to be doing that, teaching these young people, I  37 cannot be involved with something that's going to  38 contradict what I'm saying.  By that I mean the  39 sharing.  You see when something happens, the clan  40 always gets together.  You look at the Andumenuk in  41 this, this —  42 Q   Feast book?  43 A   Feast book record here, you see the connection with  44 other clans.  The Andumenuk means that these people  45 belong to different clans, different houses.  46 Q   Different houses --  47 A   There is a connection there. 1  Q  2  A  3  Q  4  A  5  6  Q  7  A  8  Q  9  A  10  11  12  13  14  15  Q  16  17  A  18  Q  19  20  A  21  Q  22  23  A  24  Q  25  26  A  27  Q  28  A  29  Q  30  31  32  A  33  Q  34  35  A  36  37  38  39  40  Q  41  42  A  43  44  45  46  47  Q  4160  -- of the same clan?  The Andumenuk --  Okay.  -- are from different clans and different houses and  different clans.  Right.  Because they are spouses of --  Right.  -- people in Spookw.  So, you will see there that it will affect all  these people, so I can't be standing there and trying  to teach them our ways and then say, "Well, this is  the territory of Spookw and away you go," that's not  the way it's going to be.  You described yesterday about going up to the berry  grounds?  Yes.  At Blue Lake.  And on whose territory are those berry  grounds?  Spookw.  Did persons -- you described a number of people that  went up there, including old Mrs. Austin?  Um-hmm.  And others who were from other houses and even other  clans?  Um-hmm.  Is that right?  Yes.  Were those berry grounds, are they part of Spookw's  territory or are they something different than  Spookw's territory?  It's Spookw's territory.  And did those people have permission to go to those  berry grounds from Spookw's house?  My grandmother always invited those people to come  with us up there.  The names that I mentioned are the  ones that I just most -- you know, I remember mostly  because they were with us the most.  There were others  who used to go up there with us.  Did your grandmother tell you why the Wet'suwet'en  came together at Hagwilget?  Well it was a place where a lot of the feasts took  place, and also the fishing.  They used to do their  winter supply of fish there.  At one time that canyon  supplied the fish for their winter needs for that  whole village, plus other villages used to come there.  Do you know when -- from what your grandmother told 1  2  3  A  4  5  6  Q  7  A  8  9  Q  10  11  A  12  Q  13  14  15  16  A  17  Q  18  19  A  20  Q  21  A  22  Q  23  24  A  25  Q  26  A  27  Q  28  29  A  30  31  Q  32  A  33  Q  34  35  A  36  Q  37  A  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  4161  you, do you know when the Wet'suwet'en first began to  gather at Hagwilget?  She never gave me any definite dates, she just said  many, many years.  It seemed to me that it was all --  you know, it was a thing that happened all the time.  Okay.  That they gathered there to do their supply, and also,  the feast too.  From what she said to you, do you know whether it was  before or after the arrival of the first white man?  Before.  I would like to return briefly to the question of the  feasts, and I'll start with the head stone feast of  Exhibit 317.  Tab 4 refers to that head stone feast,  were there any -- you know what I mean by adaawk?  Um-hmm.  Were there any adaawk told at that feast from Spookw's  house?  No.  And you know what I mean by Kungax?  Yes.  Were there any Kungax performed or described at that  feast?  No.  Just the sicnac kwos (ph).  Okay.  And that's what Nancy Superneault did?  Yes.  Can you tell the court why there was no adaawk  described or no Kungax performed at that feast?  Well it wasn't for a chief, the feast wasn't for a  chief.  Mary Duncan held a Gitksan name?  Yes.  And Madelaine George held a Gitksan name in Gisdaywa's  house?  Yes.  So they held names but were not chiefs; is that right?  They held names but they weren't chiefs.  Not everyone  is a chief just because they have names, you know.  Like I said, you -- it's something that happens after  years of working in the feast house.  And the only  time that it ever happens sudden is if — is if the  chief has already made his choice before he died.  If  he has made his choice already before he -- his death,  then the person that is named, you know, has already  been in training without realizing it.  But a lot of  people are given names of the house but that doesn't  necessarily mean that they are chief.  You see when we 1  2  3  Q  4  A  5  Q  6  A  7  Q  8  9  A  10  11  12  Q  13  14  15  A  16  17  Q  18  A  19  20  21  Q  22  A  23  Q  24  25  A  26  Q  27  A  28  Q  29  A  30  Q  31  32  33  A  34  Q  35  A  36  37  Q  38  39  A  40  Q  41  42  A  43  Q  44  45  A  46  47  4162  are talking about chief, we are talking about like the  Chief Spookw, and my brother is a chief.  That's Wilfred?  Wilfred.  Wo'o?  Yes.  Have you ever seen a performance of your crest, of  Spookw's crest at a feast?  I was very young when Spookw's Kungax was done.  And  at the time I didn't realize it and I can't really  tell you too much about it.  Well, can you remember anything about it that stands  out in your mind, anything about what was used or what  was done?  Oh, just that he used the hide of the bear, and it was  a whole hide of the bear.  It was a bear?  Yes. And he would act -- he would walk along very  close to the floor, walking along, I remember that  part, but --  What colour was the hide?  It was a dark brown.  Were you present at the feast at which — the funeral  feast or the head stone feast for Johnson Alexander?  No, I wasn't.  Was -- were you in the area at that time?  No, I wasn't.  Where were you, do you recall?  I think I was -- I was out of the country.  This time when the -- I'm sorry.  This Kungax as you  described, was this the Kungax of Spookw's house that  you remember, the bear?  Yes.  And do you remember where that feast was?  In -- it was in the old hall that was right in the  middle of Hagwilget.  Okay.  Now, you described that as a Kungax and that's  a Wet'suwet'en word, right?  Kungax, yes.  Yes.  Had you seen Nox Nox performed at Gitksan  feasts?  Yes.  Is the -- okay.  Is there a difference or can you --  between the Kungax and the Nox Nox?  That's the Kungax.  The Nox Nox is the Kungax.  Kungax.  You are starting to make me pronounce it like  you now.  It's Kungax. 1  Q  2  A  3  Q  4  A  5 THE  COURT  6 MR.  GRANT  7 THE  COURT  8 MR.  GRANT  9  Q  10  11  12  13  14  A  15  Q  16  A  17  Q  18  A  19  20  21  22  Q  23  24  A  25  26  27  28  29  Q  30  A  31  32  33  34  35  Q  36  A  37  38  39  40  41  Q  42  43  44  45  46  47  A  4163  Kungax?  Kungax.  And so they are the same?  Yes.  Sorry, I don't remember how to spell Nox Nox.  N-O-X, N-O-X.  Thank you.  Now I would like to move to another area, and it's --  return to the area of presence on the territory.  And  yesterday I asked you about your uncle, I asked you  about your uncle Willie Wilson I think it was, who you  described as hunting, he hunted?  Yes.  Now, you said that he hunted once a year?  My uncle?  Yes, Willie?  No, he hunted more that once a year, but maybe he went  out alone once a year.  But that was very seldom he  went alone.  He went out usually he had other -- other  men with him.  Okay.  And how often in a year would he go out hunting  with other men?  Five or six times, something like that.  A good -- it  would depend on just -- you know, how much they got in  those previous hunts.  You know, he -- if they got  enough then they wouldn't go out again until they  needed it again.  Um-hmm.  Because at that time we had to do our smoking and  canning rather than deep freeze, you know.  With the  deep freeze you can throw the meat in there pretty  quickly, but with the other methods you have a lot of  work in canning and smoking.  Um-hmm?  And also it depended, you know, on how many of the  guys were with him and if they were not successful,  then he would have to share with them what he got.  When they went out they made sure they came back with  enough for all of the households.  Okay.  Now, you described yesterday when you were  describing your going through puberty, preparation for  puberty, you described that you weren't allowed to  handle any of your uncle's things that he took with  him hunting.  Do you remember if your uncle did any  special preparations for hunting?  Yes.  There is sort of a cleansing period that he 4164  would go through, not only of his personal self but  also, you know, of his equipment.  And then he would  have certain plants that he had picked in the  mountains that he would have burning.  Like today you  hear about incense and stuff like that, it is  something like that.  It had a strange smell to it,  and that plant, I can't -- I don't know an English  word for it.  Do you know --  He used to use it to clean all of his equipment, and  while he was doing that he would have this plant, it  would be sort of like a smouldering -- smouldering  cigarette, eh, it's the only way I can describe it.  And it wouldn't be burninging, it would be just like  smoking, and he would clean his guns, you know, his  rifles that he was using.  And --  When you say "clean them", you mean clean them in just  like normal?  No.  He —  Normally?  I had to be away from him when he was doing this.  This is a ritual that the hunters themselves do, so I  wasn't to be nosing around there too much.  We just  knew when he started to do this that he was preparing  to go out.  You said -- sorry?  This plant that he used, all I know is the Indian word  for it.  What's that?  C'un yee.  Is that a Wet'suwet'en word or a Gitksan word?  C'un yee, that's a Wet'suwet'en word.  33 THE TRANSLATOR:  355.  34 MR. GRANT:  35 Q   And just to be clear when you say "the smoking", this  36 would be -- when you refer to incense, you mean this  37 plant would smoke like the incense?  38 A   Yes.  39 Q   How long before he actually went hunting would he do  40 this, and how long would this process of his  41 preparation take?  42 A  Well, the cleansing of himself and that and of the  43 rifles, it would be about a week.  And one of the  44 things, I guess, I asked him why he would be bathing  45 so many times, eh.  Like it's some sort of a bathing  46 ritual too, and at that time we had to haul water, we  47 didn't have taps to turn on and shower or anything  1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  Q  10  A  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  Q  18  19  A  20  Q  21  A  22  23  24  25  26  Q  27  A  28  29  Q  30  A  31  Q  32  A 4165  1 like that, we had to haul water from quite a ways.  2 And he said that he had to do this because not only  3 was he making sure of his luck, but also it meant that  4 the scent -- his scent wouldn't be -- well if there  5 was an animal, whatever way the wind was blowing and  6 there was an animal, they wouldn't catch his scent,  7 sort of thing.  8 Q   Um-hmm.  Did he do this everytime he went hunting?  9 A   Yes.  10 Q   And can you describe --  11 A   You see, remember earlier when you were talking about  12 the singer on here, I said that people did have  13 different specialties.  Like this lady was a singer.  14 Q   Nancy Superneault you are referring to?  15 A   Yes.  16 Q   And with the men too, and some woman too, some are  17 really good hunters, and some are really good  18 trappers, you know, different things that they do  19 especially well and better than others.  And so my  20 uncle, he used to always take younger people with him.  21 Q   Yes?  22 A  And he would be -- you know, they think that they are  23 just accompanying him, but he is actually teaching  24 them without them realizing, because he would tell  25 them, you know, tell them how to conduct themselves  2 6           when they were with him.  27 Q   Is there any way you can describe how your uncle felt  28 about animals and his relationship with animals from  2 9 any incidents that happened when you were growing up?  30 A   He was a gentle person.  He was loved by all the  31 children, and you know when people are loved by  32 children, you know that that's a special person,  33 because children can sense things in a person a lot  34 easier than an older person can, eh.  And he was  35 really loved by children.  He used to always have  36 children trailing around him, and they used to come to  37 our place all the time and they would sit around him  38 and he would be telling us stories.  And sometimes it  39 would carry on so late that he would have to bring  40 them home, and I remember he would have to use -- at  41 that time we had a gas lantern, and sometimes the --  42 at that time they called them these kerosene lamps,  43 coal-oil lamps they used to call them, and he used to  44 take that and take the kids home.  He used to always  45 have kids coming to visit us and he would be telling  46 them stories.  I really liked him.  He was a gentle  47 person and, like I said, he was a hunter but yet he -- 4166  1 he loved his horses.  He had his own horses that he  2 used all the time, he took very good care of them, he  3 treated them gently.  But one thing that stands out in  4 my mind and I can't remember how old I was at the  5 time, but one time he brought home a baby moose, and  6 apparently the mother had been killed and he came  7 across this baby moose.  So he brought it home and I  8 know that when this moose became, you know, a little  9 bit too big to have around, that he brought it back  10 out and let it go, because he knew that was being left  11 to look after itself.  12 And another time -- and there -- I must have been  13 about eight or nine years old at that time when he  14 brought these three bear cubs home, and those  15 things -- he built a cage for them because he was  16 afraid that if we bothered them too much they might  17 hurt us, scratch us or something like that.  And these  18 three bear cubs when they became, you know, so big, he  19 brought them out too and let them go.  It's one thing  2 0 that I really remember.  And I don't know, we did have  21 pictures of those cubs, those bear cubs.  One of them  22 got out of the cage and the little thing climbed on  23 the fence post and it was sitting right up on the  24 fence post and someone took a picture of it.  And --  25 but I've forgotten about it until now.  But I remember  26 the cubs, you know, that he brought back.  27 Q   I would like to ask you just to return briefly to when  28 you went berry picking.  Were there berries that grew  29 at the base of the mountains that you picked as well  30 as berries that grew higher up on the mountains?  31 A   Oh, yes.  32 Q   What kind of berries grew at the base of the  33 mountains?  34 A  Well, there was high bush cranberries, there was also  35 a lot of blueberries, you know, those -- the bushes  36 were about so high, they are a low bush, and tiny  37 little blueberries.  There used to be a lot of those  38 at the base of the mountain, but the huckleberries  39 were further up the mountain.  There is a lot of  40 soapberry bushes around there too.  41 Q   And did you use those as well?  42 A   Oh, yeah.  That -- I don't know if anyone has ever  43 described what soapberries looks like and how it was  44 used.  45 Q   Well, what did you do with soapberries and what do  46 they look like?  47 A  Well, soapberries is really something else because 4167  1 I've never seen berries do what soapberries do.  2 It's -- it's a tiny red berries about the size of my  3 little fingernail, and when it's ripened it's red and  4 it's just full of juice, eh.  And it's easiest -- it's  5 easiest to pick when it's red, and what you do then,  6 you don't pick it by your hand one at a time because  7 it's very juicy.  You put a mat under there and --  8 usually a woven mat that you stuck under there that's  9 formed into a triangle shape so that it forms a funnel  10 under the bush, eh.  You lean the bush over there and  11 give it a good whack, like that, with a stick.  12 Q   On the branch?  13 A   Yeah.  The branch that the berries are on.  And all of  14 the berries would just go whoof, just drop down into  15 this little funnel that you have under there, and then  16 you just pour them into the container that you brought  17 with it.  Now when it's red like that, you can just  18 squeeze all the juice out of it, and how you prepare  19 that is you just whip it up.  And before that --  20 Q   You indicated with your hand?  21 A  With your hand.  Well we didn't have an electric mix  22 master at that time, we used our hands in the big  23 enamel bowl.  For some reason it had to be enamel bowl  24 because this berry is treated in the same way that you  25 treat meringue, you know, lemon meringue.  Any bit of  26 grease touches it this thing just goes flat.  So you  27 whip it up and you -- you whip it up and you --  28 it's -- it becomes really nice and fluffy, just like  29 meringue, and that's how you eat it.  But you -- and  30 it's pink after you whip it up.  31 But if you -- if you are going to use it when it's  32 green, you have to pick it with your fingers one at a  33 time, and that's more valuable because it's hard to  34 pick, and also it's got a different taste.  You have  35 to cook it, you have to cook it first before you whip  36 it up, and when you whip it up it's white and it's got  37 a definite, different, stronger taste and flavour to  38 it.  3 9 Q   Um-hmm?  40 A   But nowadays, we put a bit of sugar in there to make  41 it a lot sweeter.  42 Q   Is it still used?  43 A   Oh yes.  In the feast, that's -- that's sometimes  44 whipped up and you go around the guests and they all  45 take some out.  46 THE COURT:  Mr. Grant, would it be convenient to adjourn now,  47 please? 4168  1 MR. GRANT:  Certainly, My Lord.  2 THE COURT:  I have a specially difficult problem for the next  3 few minutes.  I might be slightly longer than usual.  4  5 (PROCEEDINGS ADJOURNED AT 3:00 p.m.)  6  7 I hereby certify the foregoing to be  8 a true and accurate transcript of the  9 proceedings herein transcribed to the  10 best of my skill and ability.  11  12  13  14  15 Toni Kerekes,  16 O.R., R.P.R.  17 United Reporting Service Ltd.  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47 4169  1 (PROCEEDINGS RESUMED PURSUANT TO ADJOURNMENT)  2  3 THE REGISTRAR:  Ready to proceed, my lord.  4 THE COURT:  Yes.  Thank you.  Mr. Grant.  Excuse me, Mr. Grant.  5 Mr. Grant.  6 MR. GRANT:  Yes, my lord.  7 Q   Just one thing from before the lunch break I would  8 just like to clarify with you -- or before the  9 afternoon recess.  You described this performance at a  10 feast when you were small that was put on by Spookw's  11 house, and I believe you called it a -- and I will try  12 to pronounce it correctly, called it a Kungax.  Now,  13 that is a Wet'suwet'en term, is that correct?  14 A   Yes.  15 Q   So as -- if you were describing it to the Gitksan what  16 would you call it?  17 A   It's Nox Nox.  18 Q   M'hm.  Now, you were -- we were talking about going up  19 to the Blue Lake area where you said you picked  20 berries.  How long would you stay up there when you  21 went on those trips?  22 A   For a week to ten days.  23 Q   And you would camp up there over that period of time?  24 A   Yes.  25 Q   And did you ever -- when you were up there on any of  26 those trips you did describe, some of the women that  27 went up and you would pick berries, and the older  28 women would pick berries, is that correct?  29 A   Yes.  30 Q   Did men go up with you as well?  31 A   Yes.  32 Q   And what did they do when they were up there?  33 A   They used to go hunting for mountain goat.  34 Q   Could you see where they went from where you were when  35 you were at those camps?  36 A   Yes, because they used to put white cloth on the end  37 of a long stick for us so when we were watching them  38 on the other side -- there was sort of like a valley  39 and they were on the other side of the mountain, and  40 as the mountain goats would move some of us used to,  41 you know, watch them and move our -- our white --  42 well, I guess, it would be used like a flag, eh, and  43 sort of wave it towards the direction that they were  44 going, and the men over there would move in the  45 direction that we would be waving the flag in.  I  4 6 remember that.  47 Q   Okay. 1  A  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  Q  11  12  A  13  14  Q  15  16  A  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  Q  26  27  A  28  29  30  Q  31  A  32  33  Q  34  A  35  36  Q  37  A  38  39  Q  40  41  A  42  Q  43  A  44  45  46  47  4170  But that was really something else again.  At that  time there used to be a lot of mountain goats, and my  uncle used to be one of the ones that used to go, and  he would have a group of guys with him, and men from  the village, and the only thing is even though there  was a lot of mountain goats they only took what they  could carry.  They weren't out there just to kill off  mountain goats.  They were there just to get, you  know, what they could carry.  Well, do you recall on any one of those trips  approximately how many goats would be taken?  It would depend on how many was in the party, the  hunting group.  Now, was there any special consideration given for  mountain goat meat?  Well, mountain goat, that's pretty hard to get the  mountain goat as far as I could remember from just  watching, and they had to pack it too on the mountain,  eh.  And it wasn't an everyday meal of mountain goat.  It was kept like for special.   I guess what you would  call your delicacy.  And also too it was really  something when you were able to say that you had  mountain goat at your feast too.  I know some people  have that at their feast.  What do you mean when you say it was really something  to say you have mountain goat?  It's not something that you eat everyday.  Mountain  goat meat, I don't remember eating that everyday.  It  was something special when we had mountain goat.  M'hm.  It wasn't like moose where you didn't have to go up  the mountains for moose.  M'hm.  With the moose, like we had more moose than we had  mountain goat.  Okay.  Is mountain goat meat still used at feasts?  Yes, I think it is.  Mainly I've seen it given to us  in the feast in Moricetown.  And is it given to everybody in the feast or only to  the —  To the guests.  Is it given to all the guests or just the head chiefs?  All the guests.  All the guests.  When you feed your  guests in the feast you don't pass over them.  You  have to give each one of them what you're serving.  You'd be causing embarrassment to your clan if you  miss somebody.  And if you do miss somebody they 1  2  3  4  5  Q  6  A  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  Q  14  A  15  16  Q  17  18  19  20  A  21  Q  22  A  23  Q  24  25  A  26  27  28  29  Q  30  A  31  Q  32  33  A  34  Q  35  A  36  Q  37  A  38  Q  39  40  41  A  42  Q  43  A  44  45  Q  46  A  47  Q  4171  will -- they can stand up there right now and take up  a collection just within that clan and they will give  it to the host to cover up the embarrassment of that  person being missed.  Have you seen that happen?  Yes.  Yes, I've seen that happen.  That's why when we  put on a feast I always tell our helpers, I delegate  them to different areas to look after.  I tell them  okay, you look after those two tables, another group  look after these two tables, and so on, and I tell  them where to start.  You always start with the head  chief.  M'hm.  And then head on down the table.  This is when we put  on the feast at Gitanmaax.  Now, just returning briefly to the -- or returning to  the fishery.  Yesterday you gave evidence that your  uncle, I believe it was Willy, your Uncle Willy fished  at the Hagwilget canyon?  Yes.  And he fished on both sides of the canyon?  Yes.  Do you know of, or do you recall there being a rock in  the canyon that was blown out of the canyon?  There was two areas there where he used to fish on the  east side, on the same side as Hagwilget, but the  place where there used to be big rock was right in  front of where he used to gaff.  You know the present bridge over Hagwilget canyon?  Yes.  If you were on that bridge where would you look to  look where he used to go?  Look straight down.  Straight down?  Yes.  So it was directly under the bridge?  Yes.  What about when he fished on the other side of the  canyon, that is the Hazelton or Gitanmaax side of the  canyon?  Where did he fish?  Yes.  If you were standing --  Right directly across from where he would fish on the  east side.  So on both sides you would look directly down?  M'hm.  Now, was your grandmother at all involved at the time 1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35 MR.  36  37  38  39  4 0 THE  41  42  43  44 THE  45 THE  4 6 THE  THE  MR.  MR.  A  Q  A  47  4172  of the destruction of the Hagwilget rock?  Was she  active?  She was involved with a lot of the meetings that went  on before that rock was blasted out.  Right.  And I know she was very much against it, the blasting  of the rock out of that canyon.  Q   I'd ask if you could turn to tab 13 for a moment.  Now, this is a document from the federal document  lists.  Do you recognize any of the names of the  persons under where it says signed by the following  people of the Hagwilget Band, and were any of them  your relatives, that is in the house of Spookw?  A   Those in the house of Spookw on here --  Q   M'hm.  A   -- Is Joe Wilson.  Q   Yes.  A  Margaret Austin.  Q   Yes.  A   James Joseph.  Q   Yes.  A  Matthew Wilson.  Q   That was your uncle Matthew?  A   Yes.  Q   Tab 13.  A  And my Aunt Josephine Wilson.  And there's Thomas  Alec.  That's the house of Spookw.  Q   Okay.  Did you see this document before as shown to  you myself after delivery from the Federal Crown, or  have you seen one like it?  I've never seen this one before, but I knew they were  doing a lot of things like this where they were  against -- against that rock being blasted out of  there.  :  I'd ask this to be marked as the next exhibit, my  lord.  MACAULAY:  I don't know whether that's been identified.  GRANT:  I have no problem with it being marked for  identification only.  COURT:  Well, all right.  Mark -- she has identified some  names on it, a collection of the names that she has  identified.  To that extent it may be an exhibit for  identification.  REGISTRAR:  Marked for ID only, my lord?  COURT:  Yes.  REGISTRAR:  Number 319, tab 13.  COURT:  319.  A  GRANT: 4173  1 THE REGISTRAR:  Yes, my lord.  2  MR.  GRANT  3  4  THE  COURT  5  6  7  8  9  MR.  GRANT  10  11  12  MR.  MACAU  13  14  THE  COURT  15  MR.  GRANT  16  THE  COURT  17  MR.  GRANT  18  Q  19  20  21  A  22  Q  23  24  25  A  26  27  28  29  Q  30  A  31  Q  32  33  A  34  35  36  MR.  MACAU  37  38  THE  COURT  39  40  MR.  GRANT  41  THE  COURT  42  43  44  MR.  GRANT  45  46  Q  47  :  Maybe it can be labelled as the April 15th, 1955  petition of the Hagwilget Band.  :  Yes.  (EXHIBIT 319 FOR IDENTIFCATION:  Petition of the Hagwilget Band dtd. Apr.15/55)  :  I asked my friends if they have a copy of this which  has actual signatures on it.  It might expedite  matters.  jAY:  We may have a photocopy of the original.  We  didn't type this.  We found the document in that form.  Yes.  All right.  Yes.  Thank you.  Do you recall the time about -- around when this  dispute was going on about the blasting of Hagwilget  rock?  Yes.  And can you tell the court what your grandmother did,  and what her involvement was, what you remember her  involvement as being?  Well, I know that she always spoke against it, and  when they had meetings on it that she spoke against  it.  She was very much concerned about what would  happen.  Did she talk to you about what her concerns were?  Well, I was usually with her.  Yes.  And what did she say in those meetings when you  were with her about her concerns?  Well, it's in the same vein what this letter says  here.  Everyone who spoke against it always said the  same thing.  LAY:  I don't think that's admissible, my lord.  It's  not a question of ancient reputation or the like.  :  Concerns hadn't been invented by 1955.  They hadn't  been invented until six or seven years ago.  :  I'm sorry.  Concerns?  :  Never heard of concerns until about six years ago.  Now we hear of little else.  It's not really  admissible, is it, Mr. Grant, this conversation?  :  The conversation isn't.  No, I concede the  conversation isn't admissible, but I think that the --  Let me ask you this, Mrs. Wilson-Kenni, what did  your -- did your grandmother do anything about this -- 4174  1 about the destruction of the rock?  You said she spoke  2 at meetings.  She expressed her opposition I gather  3 from what you said?  4 A  M'hm.  5 Q   And you were present there.  Did she do anything else?  6 Did she participate in any other efforts to prevent  7 this rock from being destroyed in the canyon?  8 A  Well, there was a group of the women who went down to  9 the bridge that pelted those workers down below with  10 rocks, tried to get them to stop.  11 Q   And was your grandmother involved in that?  12 A   Yes.  So was my aunt and quite a number of the women.  13 Q   Which aunt?  14 A   Josephine Wilson.  Her name is typed on here.  15 Q   Yes.  Okay.  And do you remember that?  16 A   Yes.  We don't get any fish any more from that canyon.  17 You know, during our feasts sometimes some of our  18 personal debts that we pay up concern fish that's  19 given to us, because when we're given something, you  20 know, we pay it back in the feast with a gift.  And I  21 know that when most of our debts that we've had to pay  22 in feasts are usually because of fish, fish been given  23 to us.  24 Q   Can you give an example?  For example, who would  25 provide fish to you?  26 A  Well, the latest one if you look on this -- on this  27 feast record here.  28 Q   Yes.  29 A   There's a personal debt that we had to pay, and that  30 personal debt was to do with fish that was given to  31 us.  32 Q   Okay.  That's at tab 4.  We'll refer to it so you can  33 just indicate to the court where that is.  Exhibit  34 317.  Just —  35 A   Somewhere -- it says personal debt somewhere.  36 Q   Okay.  Just have a look.  37 A   Oh, it says private debts in here.  Page two.  38 Q   This is on page two of the preparation page?  39 A   Yes.  40 Q   That would be the third from the end, is that right?  41 A   Yes.  42 Q   It's the page that starts balance forward and Kerr  4 3 Mugs?  44 A   Yeah.  45 MR. GRANT:  My lord —  46 THE COURT:  What is it that you're showing me on this page,  47 please? 1  MR.  GRANT  2  Q  3  4  A  5  Q  6  A  7  THE  COURT  8  MR.  GRANT  9  10  THE  COURT  11  12  A  13  THE  COURT  14  15  A  16  17  THE  COURT  18  A  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  THE  COURT  26  27  A  28  MR.  GRANT  29  Q  30  31  A  32  Q  33  34  35  36  A  37  38  Q  39  A  40  41  42  43  44  Q  45  THE  COURT  46  MR.  GRANT  47  A  4175  The very bottom refers to private debts DWK and WW.  That's yourself and your brother?  Yes.  Okay.  And who is Alvin Weget?  That's Niisgumunuu.  He's from Kispiox.  He's from --  :  Is that Alain, A-L-A-I-N?  :  Alvin.  A-L-V-I-N.  W-E-G-E-T.  Is it on there, Mr.  Mitchell?  :  That's for one pair of blankets, isn't it?  What's  this got to do with the price of fish?  That's what we paid them for giving us fish.  :  Oh, I see.  You paid them for the fish with  blankets, did you?  No.  We gave Alvin one pair of mukluks handmade, and  $250 cash.  :  Mukluks.  That's what it says?  And Gwiskun, Stanley Williams, we had -- my mother  made him a beaded vest with his own crest on it, and  we gave him $500 cash besides because this was over  the years that they have been giving us fresh fish and  we've shared it amongst our family, and it's just a  small token of our appreciation when you look at that  amount.  :  And that was -- that was in exchange or in  compensation for fish, was it?  Yes, that they had given to us.  And this was for fish they had given to you over a  number of years?  Yes.  Would -- would they -- did Alvin Weget provide, and  Stanley Williams, did they provide that fish just to  yourself and your immediate family, that is yourself  and your husband and children or --  No.  That was shared with my -- my mother's -- mother  and some of my brothers and sisters.  Okay.  See if it's just two or three, like in case of Stanley  Williams he always gave me spring salmon, and those  are big so we cut them up into little chunks and was  given out to my family.  That's why the handmade  things were made for them.  Okay.  :  Now, I missed Alvin Weget's name.  :  Niisgumunuu.  Niisgumunuu. 1  MR.  GRANT  2  3  THE  COURT  4  MR.  GRANT  5  THE  COURT  6  7  MR.  GRANT  8  THE  COURT  9  A  10  MR.  GRANT  11  12  THE  COURT  13  MR.  GRANT  14  THE  COURT  15  MR.  GRANT  16  THE  COURT  17  MR.  GRANT  18  THE  COURT  19  MR.  GRANT  20  THE  COURT  21  A  22  23  MR.  GRANT  24  Q  25  A  26  Q  27  A  28  Q  29  A  30  Q  31  32  33  34  35  36  A  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  4176  Do you have a spelling for that now, or do you wish  me to attempt it?  Is it in the list of plaintiffs?  No, it's not in the list of plaintiffs.  Well, I don't need it unless madam reporter needs  it.  She does.  Let's see if it's on the --  And that's Stanley Wms is Stanley Williams?  Yes.  Gwiskun.  Yes.  It's on Exhibit 2(3).  It's spelled there as  N-I-S-S-G-I-M-I-N-U-U.  And Gwiskun, G-W-I-S-G-Y-E-N.  What is Gwiskun?  Gwiskun, that's Stanley Williams.  Oh.  G-W-I-S-G-Y-E-N.  How is it spelled again, please?  How is it spelled?  Yes.  G-W-I-S-G-Y-E-N.  Thank you.  See those two people there, they're chiefs, and when  they do something for you you have to remember that.  Are they Gitksan or Wet'suwet'en chiefs?  Gitksan.  What clan or clans are they from?  Gisk'aast.  That's the fireweed clan, is that right?  Yes.  Now -- okay.  We have got to this feast book, and the  gifts to Stanley and Alvin from the point where I was  asking you about the destruction of the rock in the  canyon.  Can you tell the court what the relationship  between those is.  In other words, why is it that now  you are giving gifts to these people?  Well, if we still had our canyon in the condition that  it was in when my uncle was fishing then we wouldn't  have to be doing this.  We would provide for our own  fish.  We would get our own fish.  It's -- that's what  my uncle did.  You know, there was enough fish to --  for the families for their winter supply, and now we  have to depend on the -- on the kindness of other  people who give us fish.  These are not only ones.  You know, this is just something that we wanted to do  at this particular time.  There are others that we  have to remember further on when we put on feasts  again. 1  Q  2  A  3  Q  4  A  5  6  7  Q  8  A  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  Q  16  A  17  18  Q  19  A  20  Q  21  A  22  23  Q  24  25  A  26  Q  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  A  35  36  Q  37  A  38  MR.  MACAU  39  40  THE  COURT  41  MR.  GRANT  42  MR.  MACAU  43  MR.  GRANT  44  45  THE  COURT  46  MR.  GRANT  47  THE  COURT  4177  So you will be giving other private debts to other --  That's right.  -- People for the fish they provided to you?  That's right.  And these people, like I said, they are  chiefs so we treat them with the respect that they  command.  And it's just our way of saying thank you.  M'hm.  It's just a token of appreciation.  Now I see Stanley  Williams, he wears that vest only when he is going to  somewhere special.  And he's very proud of it because  it has his crest on it.  It's done all in bead work.  His own personal crest bead work on the front part of  the vest, and on the back the fireweed and flowers.  That was done by my mother.  Mrs. Margaret Austin?  Yes.  And so with the mukluks, it was made by my  sister, my sister Cora.  That's Cora?  Cora.  The one that --  What's her last name?  Cora Naziel.  We use her full name Cora Jean Naziel  because there's another Cora Naziel in Moricetown.  Okay.  Has the federal government ever provided you  with fish for the people of your community?  Yes.  I'd ask you to turn to tab 11 of the exhibit book, and  just look at the first -- first four plastic pages,  which would be eight pages.  And well -- actually I  will be asking you about the others too, so you can  just look through that -- that tab.  Now, could you  tell his lordship what the federal government has done  regarding the provision of fish, and what, if  anything, these documents have to do with that?  Well, this is delivery of canned fish, and this is  just a record of who received the canned fish.  And this first four pages refers to the year 1981?  Yes.  AY:  I take it the witness has personal knowledge of  these records?  Mr. Grant will find out for us.  Yes, I certainly will.  AY:  Is that -- what document number is this?  It is listed.  I'll -- my associate can provide you  with that.  Whose document is it?  It's the plaintiffs' document list.  Didn't come from the government's list of documents. 1  MR.  GRANT  2  THE  COURT  3  MR.  GRANT  4  Q  5  6  7  8  9  A  10  11  12  Q  13  A  14  Q  15  16  A  17  Q  18  19  20  21  THE  COURT  22  MR.  GRANT  23  THE  COURT  24  MR.  GRANT  25  26  THE  COURT  27  MR.  GRANT  28  Q  29  30  31  A  32  Q  33  A  34  Q  35  A  36  MR.  GRANT  37  THE  COURT  38  MR.  GRANT  39  THE  COURT  40  41  MR.  GRANT  42  Q  43  44  A  45  Q  46  A  47  THE  COURT  4178  Yes.  It's on document list number 10.  The plaintiff's list number 10?  Yes.  Now -- yes.  Do you know what -- well, you do know  what the documents are?  The question Mr. Macaulay  wishes me to clarify with you is do you have personal  knowledge of what these records are and how they came  about?  Well, this was when I was working at the band office  and they delivered those cans of salmon to the band  office.  This was when you were the band manager?  Yes.  So you were -- you set up these records to record the  fish that came in and how it was distributed?  Yes.  Now, I'd refer you to the page where it has after --  it says '78 canned fish distributions.  The page over  refers to Motorways or photocopy of a Motorways  invoice.  I'm sorry.  Where are you finding that?  I'm sorry, my lord.  After the first --  One, two, three, four, five, six.  The back of the  sixth plastic sheet.  Yes, I see.  Now, did you -- did the Department of Fisheries of the  Federal Crown deliver 135 cases of canned salmon to  the band while you were the band manager?  Yes.  And that was in 1980?  Yes.  Right under the hole punch there it says '80?  Yes.  Fortuitously, my lord.  It's always that way.  I didn't want you to think it was intentional.  It's impossible to punch a hole in something without  obliterating a date.  1980.  There was another invoice of December 29th, 1980 on  the other facing page that was for the same --  Same period.  For the same cases?  Yes.  :  I'm sorry.  What was that? 1  MR.  GRANT  2  THE  COURT  3  MR.  GRANT  4  Q  5  6  7  A  8  Q  9  10  A  11  12  13  Q  14  A  15  THE  COURT  16  A  17  MR.  GRANT  18  Q  19  A  20  THE  COURT  21  22  A  23  24  MR.  GRANT  25  Q  26  A  27  Q  28  29  30  A  31  Q  32  33  THE  COURT  34  MR.  GRANT  35  Q  36  A  37  Q  38  A  39  40  Q  41  A  42  Q  43  A  44  Q  45  46  47  4179  That's the Wells Cartage invoice.  Oh.  It's the same period.  And turning two pages over you see the Walmac  Transportation Systems.  And were 75 cases of canned  salmon delivered to the band to your attention?  Yes.  It says attention Mr. -- looks like Dewar Kenni.  That  was their mistake.  That was to you?  Yes, it was me.  You can see my -- I had signed for  it, but it's not very -- it's quite faint in the  bottom there.  Oh, yes, you've signed at the bottom?  Yes.  :  This is 1979, is it?  This is December of '80.  Now, is that the same year as the previous deliveries?  Yes.  :  Isn't that document dated December -- I'm sorry.  I  guess it's December 29th, 1980.  Yes.  It's -- they delivered over 200 cases, I think,  at that time.  In that year?  Yeah.  Now, would it be correct to say that the first --  those first four -- first eight pages, that's for the  1980 year, is that right?  The first —  The first eight pages, but they're first four plastic  sheets.  Or it appears 1981.  :  Where does it appear?  Well, it says June 1st, '81, for example, Marion Alec.  That was different delivery.  Can you tell the court --  Pardon me.  That's '81.  This one here is delivered in  the end of the year.  Like see December?  Okay.  That's why.  So it's the same delivery?  Yeah.  Okay.  Then going over a number of other pages you see  a -- this would be the sixth plastic sheet in 1978  canned fish distribution.  Was canned fish delivered  in that year as well? 1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  3 0 MR.  31  32 MR.  33  34  35  36  37 THE  38  3 9 MR.  4 0 MR.  41 THE  42  43  4 4 MR.  45  46  47  4180  A   Yes.  Q   Was there any -- and then if you go over an additional  five pages you come to a handwritten note canned fish  received.  And this is actually the last -- the second  to last page, plastic sheet.  Marion Alec two cases on  the top.  Do you know what year that would be for?  Sorry, this one here.  A   I'm not too sure.  There's supposed to be a summary of  all these deliveries with this fish file.  Q   Okay.  I would ask you to look at tab 12.  Just go to  the next tab.  A  M'hm.  Q   And look at those documents.  Were those also records  with respect to fish deliveries?  A   Yes.  Q   And the distribution of those fish?  A   Yes.  Q   Are you getting fish from the federal government,  let's say, in this past year --  A   No.  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  GRANT  -- To your benefit?  Do you recall the last year in  which they delivered fish?  The last year?  Yes.  I think that's the one here where it says 1985.  Fish received January 11th, '85.  That's in tab 12.  The fourth page in on tab 12 on the left hand side is  fish received 1985.  That was 99 cases?  Yeah.  Yes, my lord, I note the time.  I wonder if before  the break we could mark this as the next exhibit.  MACAULAY:  I take it that this is being marked on the basis  that they are kept in the ordinary course of business  by or on behalf of the plaintiffs?  These are not  documents -- on the face of them they are not  documents that were delivered to anyone else.  They seem to me they could only be admissible as  business records.  Yes.  MACAULAY:  Business records of the band council.  COURT:  Of the band council, yes.  I take it, Mr. Macaulay,  by the way you put that you don't object if they are  admitted on that basis?  MACAULAY:  No, I don't.  I want to make sure the basis in  which they are being put in, that is the plaintiffs  are putting them in as part of the business records of  the plaintiffs or the band council.  COURT:  GRANT: 1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  4181  THE COURT:  They can only be included as records of business  with regards to the Hagwilget band council.  MR. GRANT:  I think I note what my friend is saying, and I think  I won't ask that they be marked as an exhibit at this  time.  I would like to consider it.  THE COURT:  You may want to reconsider your submission with  respect to some other documents.  MR. GRANT:  Yes, my lord, or you might be thinking more direct  of what my friend is saying very indirectly.  THE COURT:  Well, if you don't want to tender them.  MR. MACAULAY:  I'm not objecting, my lord.  MR. GRANT:  My friend may have shown the cards a little too  early.  MACAULAY:  No.  This is the time to clarify that.  MR.  MR.  THE  MR.  THE  MR.  THE  GRANT:  Oh, I appreciate that.  COURT:  Well, they're not being tendered.  GRANT:  I won't ask at this time to tender them.  COURT:  In any event, I reached the end of my second volume  of bench notes.  I now have 650 pages of notes.  GRANT:  I hope that's not just for today, my lord.  COURT:  That means it's time to adjourn anyway.  I mentioned  this morning I have to hear an argument on the -- on  the abortion case at nine o'clock on Monday, which I  don't think will take more than the hour.  I have to  deal with the trial list which will take a little  while because it's quite over crowded.  I think it  might be safer for you to fix now that we won't start  this trial until 10:30 Monday morning, if that's  convenient.  I wish you all a very pleasant weekend.  Thank you.  THE REGISTRAR:  Order in court.  This court will adjourn to  10:30 Monday.  (PROCEEDINGS ADJOURNED TO MARCH 7, 1988 AT 10:30 A.M.)  I hereby certify the foregoing to be  a true and accurate transcript of the  prceedings herein to the best of my  skill and ability.  Peri McHale, Official Reporter  UNITED REPORTING SERVICE LTD.


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