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Delgamuukw Trial Transcripts

[Proceedings of the Supreme Court of British Columbia 1988-03-08] British Columbia. Supreme Court Mar 8, 1988

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 4247  1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  D.Wilson-Kenni (for Plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Grant  (OTHER MATTERS SPOKEN TO)  March 8, 1988  Vancouver, B.C.  THE REGISTRAR: Calling Delgamuukw versus her Majesty the Queen.  I caution the witness you're still under oath.  THE COURT:  Mr. Grant.  EXAMINATION IN CHIEF CONT. BY MR. GRANT:  Q   Yes.  Mrs. Wilson-Kenni, Steve Robinson, the present  holder of the name Spookw has a number of  grandchildren?  A   Yes.  MR. GRANT  THE COURT  MR. GRANT  And  I'm sorry, did you say Steve Kenni?  Steve Robinson, the present holder of the name  Spookw.  THE COURT:  Okay.  MR. GRANT:  Q   And do those grandchildren include Bruce Robinson?  A   Yes.  Q   Trina Robinson?  A   Yes.  Q   Steven Michael Robinson?  A   Yes.  Q   Jennifer Robinson?  A   Yes.  Q   Andy Kergen Robinson?  A   Yes.  Q   And have those children been adopted into any house?  A   Into the House of Spookw.  Q   And can you explain how, if they're his grandchildren,  they would be able to be in the House of Spookw when  he -- are they -- let me ask you another way; are they  children of his son's or his daughter's?  A   His son's.  Q   Do you know Steve Robinson's wife?  A   Helen -- Steve Robinson's wife, yes, Eileen.  Q   Eileen?  A   Yes.  Q   And which house does she belong to?  A   Nikateen.  THE COURT:  I'm sorry?  MR. GRANT:  Nikateen.  That is N-i-k-a-t-e-e-n.  THE COURT:  I'm sorry?  MR. GRANT:  N-i — 4248  D.Wilson-Kenni (for Plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Grant  1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  THE  MR.  THE  THE  THE  MR.  THE  MR.  COURT  GRANT  COURT  WITNESS  COURT  GRANT  COURT  GRANT  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  Yes.  -- k-a-t-e-e-n.  And these are children of his daughter?  Children of his son.  Of his son.  That is the grandchildren I've named.  Yes.  He has two sons?  Yes.  Bruce Robinson and Victor Robinson?  Yes.  And these grandchildren are the children of those two  sons?  Yes.  Were they adopted into his house?  Let me ask you  this:  Were their mothers of these grandchildren  members of the House of Spookw by birth?  No, they were adopted into the house.  And their children were adopted with them?  Yes.  Okay.  Now, these grandchildren and their mothers are  not on the genealogy at tab 1; is that right?  That's right.  Okay.  But they are members of the house?  Yes.  Okay.  Do you know Marian Nobles?  I don't know her personally, but she is -- she is I  believe one of Adelaine's children.  Adelaine?  Adelaine.  She's Adelaine Holland now.  And is she -- what house does she belong to, that is,  Marian Nobles?  Spookw.  And is she referred to on the genealogy?  No.  Do you know William Gerow or Gerow,  know who that is?  I don't know him personally, but he is one of  Gerows that's Adelaine's brothers.  And what house does he belong to?  Spookw.  And is he -- was his name on the genealogy?  No.  Okay.  Now, with the additions of these people that  you referred to this morning on the genealogy, are  those all of the members of the House of Spookw --  G-e-r-o-w?  Do you  the 4249  D.Wilson-Kenni (for Plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Grant  1 A   Yes.  2 Q   -- to your knowledge?  Yesterday I was asking you  3 about certain decisions of the -- or certain matters  4 in which the Hagwilget band was involved in the  5 Catholic public schools, Hagwilget Rock, and the  6 membership code.  Has the Hagwilget band -- can you  7 just to give the court some idea -- can you tell the  8 court how many reserves the Hagwilget Band administers  9 under the Indian Affairs system?  10 A   The Hagwilget -- there's Hagwilget and there's also  11 the Bulkley Reserve.  12 Q   And approximately where is the Bulkley Reserve  13 located?  14 A   I guess it's approximately 12 to 15 miles from  15 Hagwilget.  16 Q   Would that be east or west or south-east?  17 A   East.  East.  18 Q   Okay.  Now, how large is the Hagwilget Reserve?  19 A   Hagwilget Reserve?  20 Q   Where the village is located?  21 A   It's 306 acres.  22 Q   And how large is the Bulkley Reserve?  23 A   It's about a hundred and ten acres.  24 Q   Okay.  Since you've been the band manager had the  25 Hagwilget band considered economic development  26 projects of any sort?  27 A   Yes.  2 8 Q   And can you give an example of the type of economic  29 development you've considered or the band has  30 considered?  31 A  Well, one of them was a sawmill.  32 Q   Why was the band interested in economic development,  33 and in particular a sawmill?  What was the purpose of  34 that, the intent of the band?  35 A  Well, it was to create employment.  36 Q   Can you give some idea of the unemployment rate among  37 the Hagwilget people?  38 A   It's quite high.  It's about 80 per cent.  39 Q   And did this sawmill project go ahead?  40 A   No, it didn't.  41 Q   Okay.  Can you explain to the court what happened to  42 it?  43 A  Well, for one thing I guess the main reason was that  44 we realized that we had to get permission from the  45 chiefs, the hereditary chiefs, in order to get the  46 timber for it.  47 Q   And where was it considered that you would be doing 4250  D.Wilson-Kenni (for Plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Grant  1  2  3  A  4  Q  5  A  6  Q  7  A  8  MR.  GRANT  9  10  THE  COURT  11  MR.  GRANT  12  Q  13  A  14  Q  15  A  16  THE  COURT  17  18  MR.  GRANT  19  Q  20  21  A  22  Q  23  24  25  A  26  MR.  GRANT  27  THE  COURT  28  29  30  31  32  MR.  GRANT  33  Q  34  35  36  A  37  Q  38  A  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  Q  46  47  A  the logging?  Where was the idea of the band to do the  logging?  Well, at the Bulkley Reserve.  And do you know whose territory that is on?  The Bulkley Reserve?  Yes?  I think it's Djogaslee.  :   Okay.  That is on Exhibit 63, the chiefs list,  number 5.  You have that list I believe, My Lord.  :  Yes, I do.  Thank you.  And that's a Gitksan chief Walter Wilson?  Yes.  And he is of which clan?  I know it, but I can't put my mind to it.  :  Well, lead it, Mr. Grant, I'm sure it's not going to  be a matter in dispute.  Certainly, My Lord.  You've referred before to me that  he was of the Lax see'l or frog clan; is that right?  Oh, yes.  Now, in the preparation of that project were you  involved in discussions with representatives of the  Ministry of Forests as the band manager for Hagwilget?  Actually, no.  :   Now --  :  I'm left hanging, Mr. Grant.  Did the chief  Djogaslee, or however it's pronounced, number five,  did he agree to the request of the, or the suggestion  of the Hagwilget band council, to develop the timber  on that reserve?  Did you go to Djogaslee about the development of  the -- of logging the timber on that territory?  Did  the band go to him?  No.  Okay.  Can you explain why not?  Well, for one thing the -- what would have had to  happen is we would be forced to do clear cutting and  we had to think about that too and so we just put it  on hold to think about it some more and then talk to  Djogaslee, and the thing is it might not have just  been Djogaslee that we would talk to because of where  we would get the logs from.  You mean you may have gone to other places to get logs  as well?  That's right. 4251  D.Wilson-Kenni (for Plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Grant  1 Q   So this project has not gone ahead at this stage?  2 A   No.  3 Q   Okay.  You said "We would have been forced to clear  4 cut."  Who would have forced you to clear cut?  5 A  Well, that's part of the conditions on the timber  6 licences, as I understand.  7 MR. MACKENZIE:  I take it that's the witness' personal  8 knowledge, My Lord?  9 MR. GRANT:  Well, I didn't know.  I think the conditions on —  10 my friends have introduced document after document  11 about timber licences, and if they're taking exception  12 that this is the policy of the Ministry of Forests, if  13 this is a matter in issue, that's fine, but we'll have  14 to dump in document after document to establish it, My  15 Lord.  I mean is that a matter in dispute?  16 MR. MACKENZIE:  This witness' knowledge of those conditions and  17 the discussions that may or may not have occurred is  18 in dispute.  19 THE COURT:  Well, I take it that you didn't talk to the Forestry  20 department about logging the Bulkley Reserve, did you  21 or did you?  22 THE WITNESS:   No, I didn't.  2 3 MR. GRANT:  24 Q   But you were involved in the development of this  25 proposal?  26 A   Yes.  27 Q   And you became aware of the requirements in the course  28 of the development of that proposal?  29 A   Yes.  30 Q   In your position as the band manager?  31 A   Yes.  32 Q   I'd like to move to another area, Mrs. Wilson-Kenni.  33 There's been evidence led in this case that there were  34 two -- there were a number of feasts, but there were  35 in particular two feasts between the Wet'suwet'en and  36 the Nuu'tsenii, one in April of 1986, as I recall, and  37 the other in April of 1987.  The April 1986 feast was  38 held in Moricetown, the 1987 feast was held in Burns  39 Lake.  Did you attend either of those feasts?  40 A   Yes.  41 Q   And do you -- what was your involvement in the  42 Moricetown feast, the first in order?  What did you do  43 there?  44 A  Well, at the Moricetown feast I was -- I was mainly  45 helping the ladies in looking after our guests who  46 were from the Burns Lake area.  47 Q   And are they known as Nuu'tsenii? 4252  D.Wilson-Kenni (for Plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Grant  1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  THE  MR.  THE  MR.  THE  THE  MR.  A   Some of them are.  Q   Okay.  And were some -- you said some were Nuu'tsenii.  Were others different than Nuu'tsenii?  A  Well, some are Wet'suwet'en.  Q   Just to be clear, could you tell the court what -- how  do you know -- translate Wet'suwet'en, what does that  mean?  A  Well, that's Wet'suwet'en people who lived in the  valley.  Q   People who lived down in the valley?  A   Yeah.  Q   What about Nuu'tsenii?  A   Those are the people that live way up the river.  Q   Now, did the feast one year later in Burns Lake, did  it -- it followed on the -- was it like a sequel or  follow-up to the April '86 feast in Moricetown?  A   Yes.  Q   Was there any resolution at the Burns Lake feast of  any of the territorial questions about the boundary  between the Nuu'tsenii and Wet'suwet'en?  A  Well, I came away from that meeting with the  understanding that Thutade wasn't settled.  I'm sorry, what wasn't settled?  Thutade, T-h-u-t-a-d-e.  T-h-u —  -- t-a-d-e-.  Was not settled?  Not settled.  COURT  GRANT  COURT  GRANT  COURT  WITNESS  GRANT:  Q  What nations are involved on the boundary at Thutade?  A   I don't know how to pronounce those names up there,  what the nations are, but some of the people are from  Bear Lake and that up around that area.  Q   Okay.  Well, were the Wet'suwet'en involved in that or  the Gitksan or both?  A   The Gitksan.  Q   Okay.  Were there other areas that were discussed on  the boundaries at Burns Lake?  A   Chapman Lake.  Q   And was that resolved or left unresolved at the Burns  Lake feast?  A  Well, I understood that it was -- that the decision  had been made on that, that it had been resolved.  Q   Can you recall offhand who the chiefs were involved  from the -- well, would that have been a Gitksan or  Wet'suwet'en boundary with the Nuu'tsenii at Chapman  Lake? 4253  D.Wilson-Kenni (for Plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Grant  1  A  2  Q  3  4  A  5  6  7  8  Q  9  A  10  11  12  Q  13  14  15  A  16  Q  17  18  A  19  20  21  Q  22  A  23  THE  COURT  24  25  MR.  GRANT  26  THE  COURT  27  28  MR.  GRANT  29  30  THE  COURT  31  MR.  GRANT  32  THE  COURT  33  MR.  GRANT  34  THE  COURT  35  MR.  GRANT  36  THE  COURT  37  MR.  GRANT  38  39  MR.  MACAU  40  MR.  GRANT  41  THE  COURT  42  MR.  MACAU  43  MR.  GRANT  44  45  THE  COURT  46  MR.  GRANT  47  MR.  MACAU  At Chapman Lake it's Wet'suwet'en.  Do you recall what Wet'suwet'en chiefs spoke regarding  that?  There were quite a number.  I think Roy Morris was one  of them and there was -- I just remember some of the  names because I later talked to them, and John Thomas  is one of the people that spoke.  Is John Thomas Nuu'tsenii or Wet'suwet'en?  I think that John Thomas is Wet'suwet'en, but I can't  recall at this time what the other names were.  There's quite a number of people there.  Was there an area of Burns Lake, around Burns Lake  that was discussed at the Burns Lake feast?  I'm  talking about Burns Lake the lake.  Burns Lake.  It was mentioned about Gitumskanees.  And was the boundary settled at Burns Lake, as far as  you know, at that feast?  I don't recall that.  All I know is that one of the  speakers mentioned that we are on Gitumskanees'  territory when they were speaking.  And that was where the --  Where that meeting was taking place.  Mr. Grant, should I remember what Thutade is or  Thutade?  Should you remember it?  Yes.  I don't recall that word being used.  It may  well have been, but I don't recall it.  Just let me think about it, My Lord.  I think it was  referred to in Mr. Joseph's evidence.  What does it mean?  Oh, Thutade is a lake on the government maps.  All right.  That's good enough.  Thank you.  It's -- you can certainly reference it.  And where is it?  Just generally way up north?  Yeah, it's up on the north-east sector.  That's fine.  Thank you.  I think it's in the area that was known as Moose  Valley, which was made famous by somebody in a book.  AY: It's on the —  It's on the big map, Exhibit 5, as well.  You look so pleased, Mr. Macaulay.  AY: I haven't heard from my friends yet about that.  My friend Mr. Rush was waiting patiently and Mr.  Macaulay was never here so he let sleeping dogs lie.  It's —  That's no offence to Mr. Macaulay.  AY: I didn't take that way.  I take it I have to wait 4254  D.Wilson-Kenni (for Plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Grant  until Mr. Rush comes back?  Apparently.  1  2  THE COURT  3  MR. GRANT  4  Q  5  6  7  A  8  Q  9  10  11  A  12  Q  13  14  15  16  17  18  A  19  20  21  Q  22  A  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  Q  34  35  A  36  Q  37  38  A  39  Q  40  A  41  Q  42  43  44  A  45  46  47  Mrs. Wilson-Kenni, I'd like you to explain that.  You  were present at these feasts and Ed John was present  at these two feasts was he?  Yes.  You heard the people speak and describe -- discuss  these boundaries at these feasts, discuss the  territories; is that right?  Yes.  Can you explain why there would be some confusion,  what your understanding is of why there would be some  confusion over the boundary between the Nuu'tsenii and  the Wet'suwet'en or the Nuu'tsenii and the Gitksan?  How is that division or -- how is that division  created?  Well, as I was listening to what was going on it  became very clear to me that there was two systems  being used there.  At these feasts?  Yes.  And the Gitksan Wet'suwet'en were using the  system of the clans and the houses and the ownership  of the territories through the clans and the houses,  but the Carrier Sekani were using the DIA boundaries,  you know, and how the districts were, and a lot of the  speakers were chief councillors for bands, that's why  I -- that's why I came to that conclusion that there's  two different systems there.  And there were a few  that realized what we were saying and they realized  that some of them were members of houses and  Wet'suwet'en, for instance.  When you said a number of the speakers were chief  councillors of bands?  Yes.  Are you talking about both Wet'suwet'en -- are you  talking about on --  I'm talking about the Carrier Sekani speakers.  I see.  The people that came up to speak there.  Okay.  And then you said some people realized you were  dealing with a house.  Which people are you referring  to?  Well, one in particular because I spoke to him later  because -- from what I heard him say, I spoke to him  later and he identified himself as belonging to the  House of Goohlaht. 4255  D.Wilson-Kenni (for Plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Grant  1  Q  2  A  3  Q  4  A  5  Q  6  7  8  A  9  10  Q  11  A  12  Q  13  14  A  15  Q  16  A  17  THE COURT  18  19  THE WITNE  20  MR. GRANT  21  Q  22  A  23  24  25  26  Q  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  A  36  37  Q  38  A  39  Q  40  A  41  Q  42  43  A  44  Q  45  A  46  Q  47  A  Who was that?  That was John Thomas.  And Goohlaht is a Wet'suwet'en house?  Yes.  You described about -- you said something about the  district boundaries or the Indian Affairs boundaries.  What boundaries are you referring to there?  Well, there's the Hazelton District and then there's  the Prince George District of which they are a part.  And these are districts?  It's entirely different.  These are districts created by the Department of  Indian Affairs?  Yes.  And that's how they administer the province?  Yes.  :  I thought I'd seen a lot of correspondence in  reference to the Babine District?  3S:   Uh-huh.  Yes.  The Hazelton District used to be known as the Babine,  see, and when that was changed it was the -- I think  it was changed to Gitksan Carrier District, and then  now it's Hazelton District.  Was there a division at some time between the -- of  the Babine District, that is, the area that was -- is  now in Prince George, do you know what -- well, let me  refer you to the -- there are documents that my  friends have introduced, the McKenna-McBride  commission, and they talk about the Stuart Agency and  the Babine Agency in the McKenna-McBride commission  reports, and do either of those co-relate to the  districts you're talking about?  Well, that's what our district used to be known as,  Babine Agency.  Okay.  And what about the Stuart Agency?  The Stuart Agency?  Yes.  You haven't heard of that --  No.  -- term before?  You know about the Broman Lake Band?  You know -- you know the Broman Lake Band?  I know of it, yes.  Yes.  Do you know what agency or district it is in?  It's in at Prince George district.  Have you heard of the Felix George Reserve?  I've heard of it, yes. 4256  D.Wilson-Kenni (for Plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Grant  1  Q  2  A  3  Q  4  A  5  Q  6  A  7  THE  COURT  8  MR.  GRANT  9  THE  COURT  10  MR.  GRANT  11  THE  COURT  12  MR.  GRANT  13  THE  COURT  14  MR.  GRANT  15  Q  16  17  18  A  19  Q  20  A  21  THE  COURT  22  MR.  GRANT  23  Q  24  A  25  THE  TRANS  26  MR.  GRANT  27  THE  COURT  28  MR.  GRANT  29  Q  30  31  A  32  Q  33  34  35  A  36  Q  37  A  38  Q  39  40  A  41  Q  42  43  44  45  46  A  47  Q  Do you know what agency it is in?  It's at Prince George Agency.  You've heard of the Cheslatta Reserve?  Yes.  Do you know which agency it is in?  Prince George I think.  How do you spell that, please?  Cheslatta?  Yes.  C-h-e-s-1-a-t-t-a.  Thank you.  Cheslatta Reserve?  Yes.  Thank you.  You mentioned John Thomas who was a member of the  House of Goohlaht, was he -- is he a chief councillor  of any village do you know?  I don't know if he's a councillor.  Do you know where he lives?  Nee teh ben.  :  I'm sorry?  Nee teh ben?  Nee teh ben.  LATOR: 32 6.  326 on the Wet'suwet'en list.  Thank you.  And is that in the Hazelton district or the Prince  George district?  Prince George.  Okay.  You mentioned Nee teh ben, do you know -- can  you describe in relation to some other geographic  location where that is or what Nee teh ben --  It's around Francis Lake.  And that's the Wet'suwet'en name for Francis Lake?  Must be.  Francis Lake also is the lake that's sometimes called  Francois Lake?  Yes.  It's not even clear among non-Indians.  And I believe you, you'll have to refresh my  memory, but I believe you already mentioned Sophie  Ogen earlier in your evidence.  She's a member of the  House of Spookw; is that right?  Yes.  And does she -- do you know where she lives? 4257  D.Wilson-Kenni (for Plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Grant  1  A  2  MR.  GRANT  3  4  5  6  7  THE  COURT  8  MR.  GRANT  9  THE  COURT  10  MR.  GRANT  11  12  MR.  MACKE  13  14  MR.  GRANT  15  Q  16  17  18  A  19  Q  20  21  22  A  23  Q  24  25  26  A  27  Q  28  A  29  Q  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  A  41  Q  42  43  44  45  46  47  Broman Lake.  Mrs. Wilson-Kenni, yesterday I -- certain documents  were delivered to me by the provincial defendant  relating to a trespass removal and they appear to be  parts of a file which includes Exhibit 321 which is at  tab 8 of the blue book, and I would just like to --  Which book is that?  The black book, I'm sorry.  Tab 8?  Tab 8, yes, and I understand from my friend these  are all from the same file, these documents.  JZIE:  Yes, My Lord.  That's what I'm instructed, My  Lord.  And just open to Exhibit 321, which you have there,  and I'll show you -- I just want to check this exhibit  stamp on the plastic --  It says 321 on in.  Okay.  Now, comparing that letter that came out of  this file, Exhibit 321 refers to District Lot 1237; is  that right, you see in the first paragraph?  Yes.  Okay.  And this document you identified yesterday is  the document which your mother and father had received  relating to their cabin?  Yes.  Is that right?  Yes.  Well, I'd like to read to you a document entitled a  "Miscellaneous Report", dated March 9th, 1983, re the  "Legal Description, Lot 1237", "Applicant Name,  Unknown", "Purpose and Tenure, Trespass", and then it  says "Location, New Hazelton - 6.0 kilometres east of  Municipality - 1 kilometre off Highway 16 on the  Bulkley Canyon Road".  Would that approximate the description of where  your mother's cabin was located, six miles east of New  Hazelton and one kilometre off Highway 16 on the  Bulkley Canyon Road?  Yes.  Okay.  Then there's a description, and I'd ask if this  matches the description of the cabin to your  knowledge, and if not, any differences.  It says:  "Lot 1237 and 1586 are both under agricultural  application, this file.  The improvements are  situated off a public gravel secondary road.  The 4256  D.Wilson-Kenni (for Plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Grant  1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  highway to New Hazelton is paved, power is  available on the main road, but not along the  Bulkley Canyon Road."  Then there is the description:  "The cabin is not occupied, however summer  occupation was confirmed."  Now, this is dated March 9th, 1983.  Did your  parents use the cabin in the summer months?  A   Yes.  Q   Did they use it in any other times of the year in  1982, '83, this would be the year before it was  burned?  A   Yes.  Q   What other times?  A   They use it every year.  Q   What times of the year?  A   During the -- during the fall, and you know, for  during the time when they go out berry picking or  hunting.  Q   So they use it at other times than the summer?  A  And sometimes they go out there just for a week-end  and stay there with their grandchildren.  Q   And would those include your son Abe?  A   Yes.  THE COURT:  Mr. Grant, the map that's in at tab 8 shows this  property on Lot 1236, not lot 1237.  MR. GRANT:  My friends may — yes, I see that, My Lord.  THE COURT:  That's not to say that someone hasn't made a  mistake.  It's been known to happen.  MR. GRANT:  Well, it's a relief to know that the provincial  crown can make mistakes on maps as well, My Lord.  COURT:  I think we all can.  GRANT:  Yes.  As I think Mr. Rush said, maps are only  opinions.  Is this property near Rossvale Lake?  Yes.  THE  MR.  THE  THE  MR.  COURT:  WITNESS:  GRANT:  Q   Yes  On that map it appears to be right in the corner  of Lot 1236.  There's another map which forms part of  this document that has marked in heavy black "Lot  1236", and "Lot 1586" and — well, I'll just show it  to the witness.  Have you seen this map before today?  This is part of the documents that the provincial  defendant gave me yesterday. 4259  D.Wilson-Kenni (for Plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Grant  1 A   No, I haven't seen it.  2 MR. GRANT:   Well, possibly it could be marked for  3 identification because it would certainly clarify -- I  4 think when you see this other map, you can see that  5 they've triangulated into what that little triangle in  6 the map which is part of Exhibit 321 is actually 1237  7 is stretched.  This is just part of this file that was  8 given to me.  I'd ask that that be marked as the next  9 exhibit.  10 MR. MACKENZIE:  I don't know whether that's been identified, My  11 Lord.  12 MR. GRANT:  It hasn't been.  I can mark it for an exhibit for  13 identification if my friend objects.  14 THE COURT:  All right.  Let's call it 321 A for identification.  15  16 (EXHIBIT 321A FOR IDENTIFICATION: Miscellaneous report)  17  18 MR. GRANT:  Yes.  I think it will just sort of clarify the  19 question the court --  20 THE REGISTRAR: Do you have an extra one?  21 MR. GRANT:  That is the only one I have at this point.  22 THE COURT:  That's all right.  We can get along with it for now.  2 3 MR. GRANT:  24 Q   Maybe my friends have an extra one.  25 Now, this description in this miscellaneous  26 report, the miscellaneous report that I'm reading  27 from, is to the regional director "J. Hall" from the  28 district manager "M. Nock", and then it's got at the  29 bottom "Richard Stuckenberg, Land Inspector,  30 Smithers".  But the report goes on:  31  32 "Improvements consist of a 6.3 meter by 3.2 metre  33 log cabin, not insulated, lined in part with kraft  34 paper, not chinked, no wood stove, some old  35 furniture, spring mattress and a rather clean  36 appearance inside."  37  38 Does that match the description of your parent's  39 cabin?  40 A   Yes, but there's a stove in there.  He says there's no  41 stove.  42 Q   He says "no wood stove".  Was there a wood stove in  43 the cabin?  44 A   Yes.  45 Q   Then it says, "Numerous wine bottles were stored  46 inside."?  47 A   That's what they used to pack water in. 4260  D.Wilson-Kenni (for Plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Grant  1 Q   They packed water in empty wine jugs?  2 A   Yes.  3 Q   It says, "Seasonal occupation could be very  4 comfortable with a wood heater.", and you agree with  5 that?  6 A   Yes.  7 Q   Okay.  The bottom of the note says:  8  9 "Seizure and removal is recommended in order that  10 the agricultural lease application proceed.  After  11 April 15th/'83, burning permit is required."  12  13 Now, you have -- I'll show you this memorandum,  14 and have you seen this before today?  15 A   No, I haven't seen this.  16 Q   Okay.  Has your mother ever -- she's never given you a  17 copy of a document like this?  18 A   No.  19 Q   I'm going to refer you to -- there's other documents  20 in the file, but I'm going to refer to you a document  21 dated September 21st, '83.  It appears to be the last  22 document in this.  I don't know, is this the entire  23 file?  This is not the entire file, but this is the  24 last document, the latest we have, "To Jack Hall" from  25 "R. Stuckenberg".  26 Now, if you'd look at Exhibit -- Exhibit 321, it's  27 to the attention of Mr. Stuckenberg and it's from Mr.  28 Hall.  Now, this is to Jack Hall from Mr. Stuckenberg  29 dated September 21st, '83.  It says:  30  31 "Re: Trespass cabin removal.  With the assistance  32 of the Ministry of Forests - Mr. Brian Atherton,  33 the subject cabin was destroyed by fire this  34 morning.  This now concludes our involvement in  35 the trespass file."  36  37 Would it be -- would you agree that it was around  38 September 21st, 1983, that your mother's cabin was  39 burned, was destroyed?  40 A   Yes.  41 Q   Another document in the file dated July 25th of '83  42 states, and again it's from Mr. Stuckenberg to Mr.  43 Hall:  44  45 "Notice was placed on the log building July 22nd,  46 1983."  47 4261  D.Wilson-Kenni (for Plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Grant  1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  A  Q  A  And then it goes on:  "Removal by fire may not be feasible owing to  weather conditions.  We will consider our options  in 30 days."  So according to this notice, a notice was placed  on your parent's cabin on July 22nd '83 and it was  burned in September of '83.  Did your parents go to  that cabin in July -- between July 22nd and September  21st '83?  Yes.  Did anything happen that summer that kept your parents  from going to the cabin in August and September of  '83?  My sister had been living in that cabin and she died  there in August 19th of '83.  Q   That was Rita?  A   Yes.  THE COURT:  What date was that?  MR. GRANT:  Q   August 19th, 1983.  Was it in tragic circumstances?  A   Yes.  Q   And did your mother not wish to return because of  that?  Yes.  And the next time your mother returned was the cabin  there?  When my stepfather went up there the cabin had been  burnt down.  He went there first?  Yes.  And then found the cabin was burnt down?  Yes.  Yes.  Mrs. Wilson-Kenni, you have described over the last  few days the feasts of your house and you've described  your role as a chief in the House of Spookw.  Does the  feast of the house relate to the territory?  Does  Spookw's feast relate to Spookw's territory?  A   Yes, it does.  MR. GRANT:   Do you want to take a few moments?  I wonder, My  Lord, maybe we could have a bit of a break?  THE COURT:  Yes.  Let me know when you're ready to proceed.  THE REGISTRAR: Order in court.  (PROCEEDINGS ADJOURNED FOR A SHORT RECESS)  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q 4262  D.Wilson-Kenni (for Plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Grant  1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  (PROCEEDINGS RECONVENED PURSUANT TO A SHORT RECESS)  THE REGISTRAR:  THE COURT:  MR. GRANT:  Q  Mr  Order in court.  , Grant.  Ready to proceed, My Lord.  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  I just wanted to ask you one final area.  You talked  about the feasts in detail and the large number of  feasts that your house has been involved in, and in  which you've been involved over the last couple of  years.  Is there a connection between the feasts and  the territory and authority of Spookw over that  territory and over the people of Spookw's house?  The minute that I walk into the feast hall I feel that  I'm there because of the territory.  The territory  belonged to us.  Spookw territory belongs to us,  members of Spookw, and even though I haven't done any  hunting or trapping on the territory since I was a  young girl, I still feel that it is part of me and I  think that in the way that I've talked to my daughter  she feels that same attachment and the love of that  territory as I do.  The feast hall is where we do our  business connecting us to that territory.  It just  reinforces our connection to the territory.  It's  part -- it's -- as far as I'm concerned, it's part of  me.  It's part of my life and also part of my  children's life.  It's a part of all the members of  Spookw.  It's a feeling that I can't describe any  better than that.  It's just part of us and it belongs  to us.  It's a part of us and it's just reinforced in  the feast hall.  How old is your daughter?  My daughter?  Yes.  She's 27.  This connection that you have said between you and the  territory through the feast, does this apply, that  connection and that relationship, apply to other  Gitksan and Wet'suwet'en persons in the same situation  as you, in other words, others who have not been on  the territory for sometime but are active in the  feast?  Yes.  Okay.  Yesterday you described how sometimes you have  to try to explain things to your husband Don, who was  not born as a Wet'suwet'en Gitksan person.  Is this,  what you've just described, one of the things that you  described to Don? 4263  D.Wilson-Kenni (for Plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Grant  1 A   Yes.  2 MR. GRANT:   My Lord, that concludes my direct.  My friend, Mr.  3 Mackenzie, delivered a further document to me this  4 morning and indicated to me this was something --  5 well, I presume it's something that just came to his  6 attention.  He didn't indicate that to me, but I would  7 like to have an opportunity just to look at my notes.  8 I didn't -- that brief break we just had was for other  9 reasons.  I didn't really want to discuss it with the  10 witness.  11 THE COURT:  Is it —  12 MR. GRANT:  I'd like to discuss this document with the witness  13 before she commences her cross.  14 THE COURT:  Yes.  15 MR. GRANT:  I do understand you have scheduled yourself for  16 11:15, but I'd ask liberty to break now if we could.  17 THE COURT:  Do you think you need more than a couple of minutes  18 or do you think we should adjourn until 11:30?  19 MR. GRANT:  Well, I wouldn't like to promise I just need a  20 couple of minutes because I'd like to -- I haven't had  21 a chance to really look at the document.  22 THE COURT:  All right.  We'll adjourn until 11:30 then.  23 MR. GRANT:  Thank you.  24 THE REGISTRAR: Order in court.  25  2 6 (PROCEEDINGS ADJOURNED FOR MORNING RECESS)  27  28 I hereby certify the foregoing to  29 be a true and accurate transcript  30 of the proceedings herein to the  31 best of my skill and ability.  32  33  34 Tanita S. French  35 Official Reporter  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47 4264  D.Wilson Kenni (For Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Mackenzie  1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  (PROCEEDINGS RESUMED FOLLOWING SHORT RECESS)  DORA WILSON KENNI, resumed.  THE COURT:  Mr. Grant?  MR. GRANT:  Yes, my lord, I lead the direct examination of this  witness, but I -- I have reached a form of agreement  with my friend, Mr. Mackenzie, he just indicated to me  at the break that there were three additional files of  documents which are not listed on the defendants' list  of documents which may be relevant to the issue of the  burning of Mrs. Wilson Kenni's mother's cabin.  And I  have proposed to him that he get those files for me to  examine and by agreement I have an opportunity to  discuss it with the witness.  But, to avoid delays, he  could proceed on other areas of his cross-examination  today and I think he has agreed to that so that I  trust Mr. Macaulay has no problem with that.  MR. MACAULAY:  I have no objection to that.  THE COURT:  That you, Mr. Grant.  Are you going next, Mr.  Mackenzie?  MR. MACKENZIE:  Yes, my lord, on that point, I confirm what Mr.  Grant has said.  These files have just come to light,  they may be relevant, we haven't had an opportunity to  examine them.  We wish to review them of course for  privilege and then disclose the relevant documents.  THE COURT:  I have to say that I have very grave misgivings  about how they could possibly be relevant but I will  be glad to hear what counsel have to say.  This is a  claim to jurisdiction and ownership of vast amounts of  land and how the destruction of a cabin, rightly or  wrongly, can affect the underlying title to the  territory, escapes me.  But I will be glad to hear  what you have to say in due course.  MR. GRANT:  I just want an opportunity if certain documents are  put to the witness, that haven't been produced to us  or listed for us, that I have an opportunity to -- at  least the witness has an opportunity to look at them  and determine what they are.  That's really all I am  concerned about.  And I readily concur with some parts  of what you are saying regarding the issue of  relevance but I think we dealt with that yesterday,  the province's theory of relevance.  THE COURT:  Who was it that burnt Atlanta, even if that, even if  the sort of cataclysmic thing were to take place, it  wouldn't have affected the rights of the parties in a  case of this kind.  But I will be glad to hear what 4265  D.Wilson Kenni (For Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Mackenzie  1 counsel have to say in due course.  2 Go ahead, Mr. Mackenzie.  3 MR. MACKENZIE:  Thank you, my lord.  4  5 CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR. MacKENZIE:  6  7 MR. MACKENZIE:  I am handing up a book of documents, my lord.  8 THE COURT:  Thank you.  9 MR. MACKENZIE:  This is one for the court.  Yes, my friend has  10 asked me whether these documents have been disclosed.  11 These are documents are all listed or have been  12 provided to my friend.  13 THE COURT:  Thank you.  14 MR. MACKENZIE:  15 Q   Mrs. Wilson Kenni, yesterday you told us about living  16 in three different worlds, do you recall that?  17 A   Yes.  18 Q   And one of those was the world of the feast hall and  19 the hereditary chiefs?  20 A   Yes.  21 Q   And the other was the world of the band council and  22 the Department of Indian Affairs, wasn't it?  23 A   Yes.  24 Q   And finally, there was the world of the non-Indians  25 and the world in which your husband is a part and with  26 which you have contact when you describe your  27 experiences in the feast hall to him?  28 A   Yes.  29 Q   Now, in this litigation --  30 MR. GRANT:  Just one point, I believe that the witness's  31 evidence on the transcript was that the three worlds  32 were the Indian world, the Gitksan world, the  33 Wet'suwet'en world and the white world and my friend  34 misconstrued the answer.  That was my recollection of  35 the evidence.  36 THE COURT:  That's four worlds.  37 MR. GRANT:  I am sorry, I said the Gitksan and Wet'suwet'en and  38 the white world was the answer the witness gave.  3 9    THE COURT  4 0    MR. GRANT  41    THE COURT  Was it yesterday  9  Yes, it was yesterday.  Does it matter, Mr. Mackenzie?  42 MR. MACKENZIE:  I don't think it matters.  I think the witness  43 agrees if she didn't say it then she agrees now.  44 THE COURT:  She lives in multi worlds.  All right.  45 MR. MACKENZIE:   I can get that reference —  46 THE COURT:  I think we are agreed it doesn't matter.  47 MR. MACKENZIE:  Yes, my lord.  I have the reference, my lord, 4266  D.Wilson Kenni (For Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Mackenzie  1 and -- I have it, I will give it to my friend because  2 of course I didn't have a transcript yesterday.  3 Q   So, at any rate, Mrs. Wilson Kenni, in this  4 litigation, it's in the world of the hereditary chiefs  5 and the feast hall that you are represented, is it  6 not?  7 A   Yes.  8 Q   And you are represented in this lawsuit by Steven  9 Robinson?  10 A   Spookw, yes.  11 Q   Yes, Chief Spookw.  And as a member of the House of  12 Spookw, you have a claim to the territory of the  13 house?  14 A   Yes.  15 Q   And you have spoken today about the territory.  16 Do you have a claim to any other Gitksan territory  17 besides that in Spookw?  18 A   Say that again?  19 Q   Your claim is limited to the territory of the house of  20 Spookw; is that correct?  21 A   Yes.  22 Q   And you have no claim to the territory of any  23 Wet'suwet'en house, do you?  24 A   No.  25 Q   You told us that Hagwilget is in Spookw's territory?  26 A   Yes.  27 Q   And you said that Blue Lake is in Spookw's territory?  28 A   Yes.  29 Q   And you have said that St. Mary's school is in  30 Spookw's territory?  31 A   Yes.  32 Q   Can you tell his lordship where Spookw's territory is?  33 A   I just have a general idea of where Spookw's territory  34 is.  I said yesterday that we have different people in  35 our house who do certain things and one of that is  36 knowing the boundaries and that's Steven that knows  37 the boundaries.  38 Q   Steven is the person in the House of Spookw who is the  39 most knowledgeable about the boundaries of the house?  40 A   Yes.  41 Q   And we are talking about Steven Robinson?  42 A   Yes.  43 Q   Well, you seem to have a general idea in your  44 testimony of where the house territory is, I take it  45 you would agree that New Hazelton is included in the  46 house territory?  47 A   Yes. 4267  D.Wilson Kenni (For Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Mackenzie  1  Q  2  3  A  4  Q  5  6  A  7  Q  8  9  A  10  Q  11  12  A  13  Q  14  15  A  16  Q  17  18  A  19    ]  MR. GRANT  20  21  22    ]  MR. macke:  23  Q  24  25  26  27  28  A  29  30  Q  31  32  A  33  Q  34  35  A  36  Q  37  38  A  39  Q  40  41  A  42  Q  43  A  44  Q  45  46  47  A  And would you agree also that Highway 16 runs through  the house territory?  Yes.  And would you agree also that the Canadian National  Railroad runs through the house territory?  Yes.  But you don't know exactly where the boundaries of the  territory is; is that correct?  No, I don't know the boundaries.  Does Ross Lake Provincial Park lie within Spookw's  territory?  Yes.  Does Seeley Lake Provincial Park lie within Spookw's  territory?  Yes.  Does part of the Kitsegukla Indian Reserve lie within  Spookw's territory?  I am not too sure.  :  There is a number of reserves, I wonder if my friend  could give the reserve he is referring to.  There is  different names for them.  JZIE:  I am speaking about the reserve just past Skeena  crossing on the banks of the -- at the confluence of  the Kitsegukla and Skeena River, is that -- does part  of that reserve lie within Spookw's territory to your  knowledge?  I don't know.  I don't know where that reserve is that  you are talking about.  You know where the Kitsegukla River flows into the  Skeena River?  Yes.  You know the Kitsegukla Indian Reserve is at that  location?  Yes.  Is any part of that Indian reserve in Spookw's  territory, to your knowledge?  I don't know.  I still can't say.  And the bridge at Hagwilget lies partially within  Spookw's territory, does it?  The bridge at Hagwilget?  Yes.  Yes.  And you would agree with me also that there are major  B. C. Hydro power transmission lines running through  Spookw's territory?  Yes.  That's what I was talking about yesterday, where 4266  D.Wilson Kenni (For Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Mackenzie  1 they dug up that grave site, one of the main causes of  2 concern at one point, with my grandmother.  3 Q   And it's your evidence that Chief Steven -- Chief  4 Spookw, Steven Robinson or is it your evidence that  5 the Chief Steven Robinson has jurisdiction over that  6 territory that we just described?  7 A   The chief of Spookw House, yes.  8 Q   Yes.  Now, you live on the Hagwilget Reserve now?  9 A   Yes.  10 Q   You recently returned to the reserve, did you not?  11 A   Yes.  I returned there in '79.  But I lived there off  12 and on before that.  13 Q   And you also own another piece of property?  14 A   Yes.  15 Q   And that property is near the Susqua River?  16 A   Yes.  17 Q   And you own that property with your daughter Deborah?  18 A   Yes.  19 Q   And I am referring now to the book of documents at tab  20 2 of that book.  That book is marked book of documents  21 for Dora Wilson -- Dora Kenni, it should be Dora  22 Wilson Kenni.  23 THE COURT:  How does one spell Suskwa.  24 MR. MACKENZIE:  S-u-s-k-w-a, my lord.  That spelling that I gave  25 your lordship is the spelling that appears on  2 6 government maps.  2 7 THE COURT:  Thank you.  28 MR. MACKENZIE:  29 Q   Now, Mrs. Wilson Kenni, may I ask you to turn to tab 2  30 in the book of documents, please.  Yes, you have it.  31 Have you seen a copy of that Certificate of Title  32 before, Mrs. Wilson Kenni?  33 A   Yes, I have one like that.  34 Q   And that's the Certificate of Title for the property  35 that you own in joint tenancy with your daughter?  36 A   Yes.  37 MR. MACKENZIE:  May I mark that as an exhibit, my lord.  38 THE REGISTRAR:  Exhibit 326, my lord, tab 2.  39 MR. GRANT:  No objection.  40 (EXHIBIT 326:  CERTIFICATE OF TITLE DATED  41 AUGUST 7, 1984)  42 MR. MACKENZIE:  That Certificate of Title, application for  43 registration received August 3, 1984, signed and  44 sealed August 7, 1984.  45 MR. GRANT:  By the acting registrar.  46 MR. MACKENZIE:  Yes, by the acting registrar.  47 Q   Now, Mrs. Wilson Kenni, when you received your copy of 4269  D.Wilson Kenni (For Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Mackenzie  1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  MR.  THE  MR.  MR.  THE  MR.  THE  MR.  MR.  MR.  THE  MR.  the document, which is marked Exhibit 326, did you  note that there is an indication of provisos and  conditions in a Crown grant?  A   That's what's written on there, yes.  Q   Yes.  And have you had an opportunity to review the  Crown grant to which that sentence refers?  A   No.  All I have is this sheet, that's all I have.  Q   You are referring to Exhibit 326.  And I note, my lord, that on Exhibit 326 there is a  reference to a document number J11221, in relation to  the Crown grant reference.  So you have owned that property since August,  1984; is that correct?  A   Yes.  Q   And on which chief's territory is that property  located?  A   I thought it was on the Spookw territory but when I  looked in the map, I saw lot 1062 on there and I  noticed it was in Djogaslee's territory.  GRANT:  Number five.  COURT:  Thank you.  MACKENZIE:  Q   And Djogaslee is Walter Wilson?  A   Yes.  Q   Do you know a chief whose name is, if I am pronouncing  it correctly, Axtiidzeek?  A   Yes, he is part of Djogaslee's group.  MACKENZIE:  Do we have a spelling for that please?  TRANSLATOR:  What was that again?  MACKENZIE:  Do we have a number for that, please?  COURT:  How is it pronounced?  MACKENZIE:  If you go to tab 13 in the document book, my  lord, you will see that territory depicted on an  enlargement of Exhibit 5 and, my lord, you will see  that —  GRANT:  It's spelled on Exhibit 5.  A-x-t-i-i-d-z-e-e-k.  MACKENZIE:  Yes, that's correct.  That appears at tab 13 in  the document book, which is an enlargement of that  section of Exhibit 5.  COURT:  All right.  MACKENZIE:  Q   Now I will just refer you to that map, Exhibit 5, Mrs.  Kenni, and you have it there at tab 13.  And could you  indicate for his lordship where on that map at tab 13,  your property is located?  A  Where it says 1062.  Q   Now, I am going to put a letter on there and hand it 4270  D.Wilson Kenni (For Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Mackenzie  1 to his lordship so that perhaps you could put a  2 letter, the letter A, right on that lot, please.  3 A   1062.  4 Q   I am going to circle that A that you marked there, and  5 you have put an A on lot 1062, as it appears on the  6 enlargement of Exhibit 5 at tab 13.  Now, looking at,  7 continuing to look at Exhibit 5, at tab 13, Mrs.  8 Kenni, there is indicated on that exhibit two  9 territories, which I have highlighted in yellow,  10 entitled Spookw.  Is that the general location of the  11 Spookw territories, to your knowledge?  12 A   It's the general area of Spookw.  I am not sure  13 whether this is one of the draft maps where some of  14 this might be changed.  15 Q   Oh, yes.  16 A  And like maybe it's a little over, I don't know.  17 Q   Let me assure you that's a copy of Exhibit 5, which is  18 the large map behind you, with all those different  19 colours and that, those boundaries appear in that  20 location on that Exhibit 5.  21 Mrs. Wilson Kenni, do you know who has the name  22 Axtiidzeek at this time?  23 A   I think it's Bruce Johnson.  24 Q   And where would he live, please?  25 A   Kispiox.  26 Q   And what clan would Bruce Johnson be in, please?  27 A   Lax see'l.  2 8 Q   Now that was a Wet'suwet'en name that you mentioned,  29 was it not?  30 A  What, Lax see'l?  31 Q   Oh, I beg your pardon.  Lax see'l, yes.  32 Now, did you seek permission from Walter Wilson,  33 who is Djogaslee, to purchase that property on lot  34 1062?  35 A   No, I didn't.  I thought that was Spookw's territory.  36 I didn't realize my mistake, like I said, until I  37 looked at the map and saw 1062 in that area there.  38 Q   How large is that property?  39 A   It's 140 acres.  There is 20 acres I think was taken  40 off by, I believe it was highways or forestry, I can't  41 remember which one, because of the large gravel pit  42 there.  43 Q   And there is a Suskwa forest road that goes past that  44 property?  45 A   Yes.  46 Q   And that's a road that is maintained by the Forest  47 Service? 4271  D.Wilson Kenni (For Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Mackenzie  1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  MR.  THE  GRANT  COURT  A  A   I don't know.  MR. GRANT:  Well, my lord, I don't know if my friend can -- this  is an area where he was sensitive to me and I think I  should be equally sensitive.  How does this witness  know who is maintaining and what's going on within the  minds of --  THE COURT:  The question was objective, was this road maintained  by the forestry.  If she has seen it --  If she has observed it.  Or learned about it in some indirect way.  But if  she doesn't know, she doesn't know.  We will see.  Do  you know who built and maintains that road?  I don't know who maintains it.  Someone maintains it  but I don't know who.  MR. MACKENZIE:  Q   Some government department?  Probably.  Do you see logging trucks using that road?  Yes.  Do you have improvements or any buildings on that  property?  We did have some barns for our animals but burnt them  down.  Did you have animals on the territory, on your  property?  Yes.  Have you lived out there?  We had a cabin out there.  Is there any electricity or water supplies?  No.  The power goes by it though.  Now, referring to the book of documents, tab 16, -- at  the map at -- tab 13 is already an exhibit, Exhibit 5.  THE COURT:  Yes.  MR. MACKENZIE:  Q   Now, you have paid taxes on this property at lot 1062,  have you, Mrs. Wilson Kenni?  A   Yes.  Q   And in 1984, you paid $264.15 tax; is that correct?  MR. GRANT:  My lord, what is the relevance of the amount of tax  that this person has paid?  THE COURT:  I don't think it has any relevance.  MR. GRANT:  She said she paid taxes, isn't that the end of it?  THE COURT:  Unless Mr. Mackenzie can give some reason that's not  apparent to me.  MR. GRANT:  I object.  MR. MACKENZIE:  Q   And you paid taxes on that property in 1985?  A  Q  A  Q  A  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q A  Yes.  Q  And in 1986?  A  Yes.  Q  In 1987?  GRANT  :  My lord, I  4272  D.Wilson Kenni (For Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Mackenzie  1  2  3  4  5 MR. GRANT:  My lord, I think the fact she says that she paid  6 taxes, is that not the end it?  Do we have no go into  7 the details of it?  8 THE COURT:  I am not sure on that one, Mr. Grant.  We are  9 already through it anyway.  10 MR. GRANT:  Okay.  Maybe we will be on to something else.  11 MR. MACKENZIE:  12 Q   I will refer now to tab 3 of the document book.  I am  13 not marking that tab, we just referred to as an  14 exhibit, my lord.  That is -- that's tab 16.  15 Now, looking at the documents at tab 3, Mrs. Wilson  16 Kenni, the first document is a, appears to be a plan  17 of survey with the name John McEllhenny, have you seen  18 that document before?  19 A   No.  2 0 Q   The next document is a Crown grant dated April 29,  21 1911, to Mr. McEllhenny, have you seen that document  22 before?  23 A   No, I have only seen it when my lawyer showed them to  24 me.  That's the first time I saw it.  25 Q   And these, this document to which I have just  26 referred, refers to lot 1062, 1062, I am instructed  27 that these documents are all contained in the Land  28 Title Office file relating to this lot.  And the next  29 document appears to be a plan in the name of Lloyd  30 Morgan Gethling, have you seen that document before?  31 A   No.  32 Q   But that is a depiction of the location of your  33 property, is it not?  34 A   Hm-hmm, yes.  35 Q   And who is, do you know Mr. Gethling?  36 A   Sure do.  37 Q   You purchased -- I am sorry, he owned the property  38 before you, didn't he?  39 A   Yes.  40 Q   Yes.  And the next document is J, document J11221, a  41 Crown grant to Mr. Gethling, dated August 6, 1980.  42 Have you seen that document before?  43 A   No.  44 Q   But you will recall that it is that document number to  45 which your Certificate of Title refers, J11221, but I  46 take it you didn't have occasion to follow up that  47 reference? 4273  D.Wilson Kenni (For Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Mackenzie  1  A  2  Q  3  4  5  6    ]  MR. GRANT  7  A  8    ]  MR. macke:  9  10  A  11  Q  12  13  14  A  15  Q  16  17  18  A  19  Q  20  21  22  A  23  Q  24  25  26  A  27  Q  28  29  30  A  31  Q  32  33  A  34  Q  35  36  A  37  Q  38  39  40  A  41  Q  42  43  44  A  45  46  Q  47  No.  And carrying on, what I am instructed is the reverse  of that document, J11221, there are certain conditions  and provisos, I take it you haven't had a chance to  read those before?  :  Is this the next page?  No.  JZIE:  Yes, it has Telefax number page seven at the  top?  No, I have never seen this before.  And the next page is a Certificate of Indefeasible  Title, title number J11221, dated August 18, 1980.  Have you seen that document before?  No.  Now, there is a reference in that document to a lis  pendens in the name of Donald Kenni, is that your  husband?  Yes.  And it says there he is a plaintiff.  Now was your  husband involved in a lawsuit related to this  property, District Lot 1062?  Yes.  And carrying over, there is a certificate of lis  pendens, filed June 10, 1981, and have you seen a copy  of that document before?  No.  Was it in June, 1981, that your husband, Donald Kenni,  commenced a lawsuit against Mr. Gethling related to  this property, Lot 1062?  Yes, it could be around that time.  And carrying on to the next document, is a writ of  summons dated June 10, 1981 --  Is it this page here?  Yes, that's right.  It has Telefax page number ten  right at the upper right hand corner.  Seems like it's upside down.  You are looking at the next page, page 11, if I could  draw your attention to this document dated, filed June  10, 1981.  Hm-hmm.  And you were aware that, as you said, that your  husband had commenced this action against Mr.  Gethling, weren't you?  I was aware of it but I didn't remember the exact  date.  Now carrying on to the next document I would like to  refer to, it's an endorsement which appears at the 4274  D.Wilson Kenni (For Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Mackenzie  1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  THE COURT  MR.  page which has page 12 in the upper right hand corner.  Now, is it the case that your husband wished to have  Mr. Gethling assign this land, Lot 1062, to him, to  your husband?  MR. GRANT:  My lord, I wonder again, I object on the basis of  relevance.  Now we are moving quite far afield.  We  are not even talking about this witness, we are  talking about what her husband is involved in some  dispute with some other man over some land.  I wonder  if I could ask my friend to elucidate as to what the  relevance of that is.  Are you not able to go to the point, Mr. Mackenzie,  without going back to grants from the Crown and  tracing the title, and the manner, form and and  practice of old conveyances?  MACKENZIE:  Yes, my lord.  The point is, well, one of the  points is --  Q   Are you aware there was a British Columbia  agricultural lease involved with this property, Lot  1062, Mrs. Wilson Kenni?  A   I was aware that there was something about agriculture  in it and also that a certain amount of land had to be  cleared before Lloyd Gethling was able to get the  deed.  And the thing is, my husband was doing all the  work, this was between Lloyd Gethling and my husband,  and I felt that he was using all of Don's work in  order to get the deeds to the lands out there.  This  is not the only piece of land that he got out in that  area.  Q   Mr. Gethling you are speaking of?  A   Yes.  And not only that, you know, he was selling  these pieces of property to other people, some of who  are not even from this country.  And it became  apparent to us that he wanted to keep all of it and  didn't want to give Don this land for all the work  that he did.  There was an understanding between him  that he was to clear a certain amount, when that  happened he got the deed, he wasn't ready to turn the  deed over.  And that was upsetting because Don put a  lot of work in there.  Q   And your husband, you have testified, was adopted in  to the house of Hagwilnegh?  A   Yes.  Q   And he has told you that he recognizes the authority  of Hagwilnegh as the chief of that house?  A   Yes.  Q   And eventually that dispute was settled and the 4275  D.Wilson Kenni (For Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Mackenzie  1 property was transferred to you and Deborah, wasn't  2 it?  3 A   Yes.  4 Q   It now, why was the property not transferred to your  5 husband?  6 A   Because he wanted Debbie and I to have it.  7 Q   Going on to another subject, Mrs. Wilson Kenni, you  8 testified that there was no doctor present when you  9 were born?  10 A   That's right.  11 Q   There was a midwife at your birth and also at Louise  12 Sebastian's birth?  13 A   Yes.  14 Q   And at the present time there is a hospital at  15 Hazelton, isn't there?  16 A   Yes.  17 Q   And it's the Wrinch Memorial Hospital, isn't it?  18 A   Yes.  19 Q   And it's a modern facility?  20 A   Yes.  21 Q   With medical facilities available to members of the  22 Hagwilget Reserve?  23 A   Yes.  24 Q   And is it the case that medical services are provided  25 to members of the Hagwilget Reserve without charge?  26 A   Yes.  27 Q   And when your daughter Deborah Ann was born, she was  28 born at a hospital?  29 A   Yes.  30 Q   And a doctor, I take it, was present at that time?  31 A   Yes.  32 Q   You testified that you are the band manager at the  33 Hagwilget Reserve?  34 A   Yes.  35 Q   And you also spoke about your interest in educational  36 facilities, the educational opportunities on the  37 reserve have improved significantly since you started  38 in 1979; is that right?  39 A   Yes.  40 Q   And at the present time the Indian children who are  41 members of the Hagwilget Reserve are entitled to  42 education without the payment of tuition fees?  43 MR. GRANT:  Where?  44 A  What do you mean?  45 MR. MACKENZIE:  46 Q   Indian children are now, Indian children members of  47 the Hagwilget Reserve can attend secondary school 4276  D.Wilson Kenni (For Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Mackenzie  1 without paying tuition fees?  2 A   I am sure there is tuition fees paid for them.  3 Q   But the Indian families do not pay the tuition fees,  4 do they?  5 A   No.  6 Q   And Indian children who are in the families on the  7 Hagwilget Reserve may attend post secondary university  8 education without payment of tuition fees, is that  9 also correct?  10 A   They have to pay tuition fees to the university they  11 are going to.  12 Q   Well, those fees are paid by the federal government,  13 are they not?  14 A   Yes.  15 Q   And is it the case that when students from the  16 Hagwilget Reserve attend post secondary education they  17 are provided with living allowances?  18 A   Yes.  19 Q   And you have a dayschool on the reserve now?  20 A   It's a little school, that's for Headstart.  It's  21 before kindergarten.  22 Q   After finishing with that school, the children of the  23 Hagwilget families go on to other schools in New  24 Hazelton and Hazelton community?  25 A   Yes.  26 Q   And your daughter Deborah Kenni completed high school,  27 did she?  28 A   Yes.  29 Q   Now, moving on to another subject, Mrs. Kenni, I am  30 going to refer you now to tab 10 in the document book.  31 Now, this is a document entitled Polling Division,  32 Alpha voters list, Skeena, and does your name appear  33 at item 297 in the lower right hand column of that  34 document?  35 A   Yes.  36 Q   And you voted in the last provincial election, did  37 you?  38 A   Yes.  39 Q   And did you vote in municipal elections?  40 A   Yes.  41 Q   And did you vote in elections for local school  42 trustees?  43 A   Repeat that question, please?  44 Q   Did you vote in elections for school trustees?  45 A   Yes.  46 Q   And I take it that you also voted in band council  47 elections for the Hagwilget Reserve? 4277  D.Wilson Kenni (For Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Mackenzie  1  A  2  Q  3  4  5  6  A  7  Q  8  9  A  10  Q  11  12  13  A  14  Q  15  16  17  MR.  GRANT  18  MR.  macke:  19  20  Q  21  22  23  24  A  25  Q  26  27  A  28  Q  29  30  A  31  Q  32  33  A  34  Q  35  A  36  Q  37  38  39  MR.  GRANT  40  41  42  43  THE  COURT  44  45  MR.  GRANT  46  THE  COURT  47  Just the last one.  Yes.  Now, is it the case that your uncle Alfred  Wilson is also on the Skeena voters list at item 293  on that document?   Is Alfred M. Wilson your uncle  Alfred?  That's item 293?  Yes.  Yes.  And your cousin Ron Sebastian appears at item 231 on  that list; is that correct?  Yes.  And your husband -- I am sorry, your uncle Alfred and  your cousin Ron are both members of the House of  Spookw, are they not?  Yes.  And several other members of the Hagwilget Reserve  also have their names on the voters list, to your  knowledge, do they not?  :  On this one here?  JZIE:  Well, I will start with this one.  Thank you,  Mr. Grant.  I am starting with the document at tab 10, and asking  the witness to confirm the items, for example,  commencing at item 201, the upper left hand corner,  the Pierres?  Yes.  They are all members of the Hagwilget Reserve, are  they not?  Yes.  Is there a -- in elections is there a polling station  on the reserve?  No.  Is there a  knowledge?  Is there a  Yes.  Yes.  And, to your knowledge, as band manager, are all the  members of the Hagwilget Band eligible to vote in  provincial elections?  :  My lord, how can she say if all the band members are  eligible to vote.  We are talking about people here,  different ages, are they on the voters list?  Surely  it's a question of law, about eligibility to vote.  :  I am sure it requires more specificity.  But is it  necessary to have this much detail?  :  That's the other point, my lord.  :  I think it applies, that comment applies on both  sides of this litigation, Mr. Grant.  Seems to me that  returning officer for that area to your  returning officer for that area? 4276  D.Wilson Kenni (For Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Mackenzie  1 the question of whether there is voting or isn't  2 voting could be handled with much less detail than we  3 are getting, as could many of the matters that we have  4 descended into.  But, I think you do need more  5 specificity.  6 MR. MACKENZIE:  Moving on to another subject.  7 Q   In your evidence you testified you were out of the  8 country for a period of time; is that correct?  Moving  9 to another subject, Mrs. Wilson Kenni.  10 A   Yes.  11 Q   You testified that at the time of Johnson Alexander's  12 funeral you were out of the country; is that right?  13 A   Yes.  14 Q   And you were out of country?  15 A   Yes.  16 Q   And did you -- where did you travel on that trip,  17 generally?  18 A   To New York and Washington, D. C.  19 Q   Did you carry a Canadian passport on that trip?  20 A   Passport?  21 Q   Yes.  22 A   No, not on that trip.  23 Q   Have you been issued with a passport by the Government  24 of Canada?  25 A   Yes.  But I have never renewed it though.  I think  26 it's lapsed.  27 Q   Mrs. Wilson Kenni, you testified that -- well, you  28 didn't testify to this, but is it a fact that you are  29 a director of the B. C. Indian Arts and Crafts  30 Society?  31 A   Yes.  32 Q   And that's a society incorporated under the B. C.  33 Societies Act?  34 A   Yes.  35 Q   And you are also a director, you testified, I think,  36 of the Gitksan-Wet'suwet'en Tribal Council  37 Association?  38 A   Pardon me?  39 Q   You were a director from 1979, approximately, of the  40 Gitksan-Wet'suwet'en Tribal Council Association?  41 A   Yes.  42 Q   And you were the vice-president of that association at  4 3 sometime?  44 A   Yes.  45 Q   What years, during what years were you vice-president  46 of that association?  47 A   I think it was from '79 to '83. 4279  D.Wilson Kenni (For Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Mackenzie  1  Q  2  3  4  A  5  Q  6  7  8  A  9  Q  10  11  A  12  Q  13  14  A  15  Q  16  17  18  A  19  Q  20  21  A  22  Q  23  2 4    MR. GRA1  2 5    MR. MAC]  26  27  Q  28  29  30  31  32  A  33  34  Q  35  36  37  A  38  Q  39  A  40  Q  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  A  And you attended the -- beg your pardon, during that  period of time was Mr. Neil Sterritt the president of  the association?  Pardon me?  During that time that you were vice-president at any  time was Neil, Mr. Neil Sterritt the president of the  association?  Yes, I think so.  Now, you attended annual meetings of the association  during your term as vice-president?  Yes.  And at those annual meetings, the association  financial statements were reviewed by the directors?  Yes.  Moving on to another subject.  You spoke about your  experiences at Ksan, and that's a museum and a complex  of arts and craft studios near Hazelton, is it not?  Yes.  And you were the manager of Ksan from 1975 until 1978,  correct?  Yes.  Now, I am referring to a document at tab 19 of the  document book.  :  I don't have that.  \FZIE:  That's the one I provided to my friend in  advance.  This is an excerpt at tab 19, that is an excerpt from  a booklet entitled First Annual Collection -- beg your  pardon, do you have it?  First Annual Collection Ksan,  1978, Original Graphics; have you seen the original of  that booklet, Mrs. Wilson Kenni?  First Annual Collection -- I would have to see it to  remember it.  Yes.  Would you agree that that's an accurate  depiction of Ksan on the front of that copy I have  copied at tab 19?  Yes, this first page?  Yes.  Yes.  Moving on to the next page at tab 19, I am going to  refer you to the description of the museum that's on  that page, and I am reading now from the -- reading  now from the first paragraph, the top of the  paragraph, Ksan, that's K-s-a-n, is a replica of a  Gitksan Indian village near Hazelton, you will agree  with that description?  Yes. 4280  D.Wilson Kenni (For Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Mackenzie  1  Q  2  A  3  Q  4  A  5  Q  6  A  7  Q  8  A  9  Q  10  A  11  Q  12  13  14  15  16  17  A  18  19  20  21  22  Q  23  24  25  A  26  Q  27  28  29  30  A  31  Q  32  33  34  A  35  Q  36  37  A  38  Q  39  40  41  42  MR. GRANT  43  A  44  MR. macke:  45  Q  46  A  47  MR. GRANT  And there is a museum there, is there not?  Yes.  An exhibition hall; is that correct?  Yes.  An art school for Indian artists?  Yes.  Shop selling original arts and crafts products?  Yes.  And feast house?  Yes.  And the next passage I want to direct your attention  to is the last sentence, "The community is a focal  point of a exciting re-emergence of the cultures of  the northwest..."  Beg your pardon -- "the cultures of  northwest coast peoples.  Can you agree with that  statement?  I don't know why they put re-emergence, because the  culture has always been strong there.  Maybe it's --  well, that word isn't, to me, isn't the right word,  re-emergence, because the culture was always strong  there.  And the Ksan complex was opened in the late 1970s; is  that right?  I am sorry, it would be the early  1970s --  About '69, late '69.  Yes, 1969.  Yes.  And there is a reference on the next page at tab 19  to Mr. Art Sterritt, and I take it you know Mr. Art  Sterritt, do you?  Yes, I know Art.  And it says in the passage there, the last sentence,  second last sentence, that he is a vice-president of  the Ksan Association, is that a correct statement?  Well, I -- was this in '78 then?  Yes, assuming it's in 1978, which is the date of  this --  That's probably right.  And it says he is very active in the volunteer  citizens group who organized the remarkable Ksan  native arts culture centre, is that a true statement  in 1978, to your knowledge?  :  I wonder about the relevance of that, my lord?  I   don't   know what   --  JZIE:  Is there a -- was there a volunteer citizens group?  Yes.  :  I object on the the basis of relevance.  Does it 4281  D.Wilson Kenni (For Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Mackenzie  1 make any difference to this litigation whether there  2 was a volunteer citizens group?  3 THE COURT:  Mr. Mackenzie?  4 MR. MACKENZIE:  Well, my lord, in my submission, the question of  5 the culture of the Gitksan-Wet'suwet'en people is one  6 that's clearly at issue in this case, and the vigour  7 and the question of the continuation, the continuance  8 of that culture is clearly at issue, and the question  9 whether there was a revival and whether certain  10 specific people were instrumental in that revival is  11 also relevant, in my submission.  12 THE COURT:  I think that I will allow the evidence, subject to  13 objection.  I have some serious reservations about  14 its, both its relevance and its probative value, but I  15 think I will rule on it on the same basis that I may  16 have erred, I have no doubt, on leaning towards  17 admissibility rather than exclusion.  But I will hear  18 you on this and whatever else at 2 o'clock.  19  20 (Proceedings adjourned for lunch)  21  22  23  24  25 I hereby certify the foregoing to be  26 a true and accurate transcript of the  27 proceedings herein to the best of my  28 skill and ability.  29  30  31  32  33  34 Wilf Roy  35 Official Reporter  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47 (PROCEEDINGS RECONVENED AT 2:00 p.m.) 4282  D.Wilson-Kenni (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Mackenzie  1  2 THE REGISTRAR: Order in court.  Calling Delgamuukw versus Her  3 Majesty the Queen at bar, My Lord.  4 THE COURT: Mr. Mackenzie.  5 MR. MACKENZIE:  6 Q   Thank you, My Lord.  7 Mrs. Wilson-Kenni, you testified yesterday I think  8 that you were aware of the name Medigmgyet,  9 M-e-d-i-g-m-g-y-e-t?  10 A   Yes.  11 Q   Yes.  And you testified that that was a name in the  12 House of Guuhadak, right?  13 A   Yes.  14 Q   Well, that's a name that's held by Steven Robinson,  15 isn't it?  16 A   Yes.  17 MR. MACKENZIE:   And Mr. Robinson, who holds that name, has  18 interrogatories which appear at tab 6 of the document  19 book, and I'm referring to the affidavit of --  20 THE COURT:  Is that Steve Robinson who's Spookw?  21 MR. MACKENZIE:  22 Q   Yes.  23 A   Yes.  2 4 THE COURT:  Thank you.  25 MR. MACKENZIE:  The affidavit of Steven Robinson dated February  26 3, 1987, and I'm referring specifically to  27 interrogatory number 24 which follows the map pocket  28 which is at page -- or tab 6.  Does Your Lordship have  29 that interrogatory number 24 which is on a page with  30 the number 6 on the bottom following the map pocket?  31 It may be -- it may have been misplaced.  32 THE COURT:  No, I have nothing after the map pocket.  Wait a  33 minute.  On tab 6?  34 MR. MACKENZIE:  Yes.  Maybe you have — maybe it's just before  35 in your copy, My Lord.  36 THE COURT:  On what page 6?  37 MR. MACKENZIE:  Page 6, My Lord.  38 THE COURT:  Yes, I have it.  Thank you.  39 MR. MACKENZIE:  40 Q   And going over to page 9, Steven Robinson says:  41  42 "I also speak as Medigmgyet, M-e-d-i-g-m-g-y-e-t,  43 for the members of Medigmgyet's,  44 M-e-d-i-g-m-g-y-e-t-'-s, House."  45  46 You see that Mrs. Wilson-Kenni?  47 A   Yes. 4283  D.Wilson-Kenni (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Mackenzie  1 Q   Yes.  Now, do you know of a house with the name  2 Medigmgyet?  3 A   No, I don't.  It's Guuhadak.  4 Q   And -- oh, you've never heard of that house?  5 A   No.  6 MR. MACKENZIE:   And that house does not appear in the statement  7 of claim in this litigation?  8 MR. GRANT:  Well, My Lord, the witness said "I don't.  It's  9 Guuhadak.", and Guuhadak does appear in the statement  10 of claim.  11 MR. MACKENZIE:  12 Q   My Lord, I heard what the witness said.  The house  13 Medigmgyet does not appear in the statement of claim  14 in this litigation.  15 Referring to interrogatory number 13, which  16 appears at page 2 just before that one we just  17 referred to, paragraph -- or interrogatory 13 C, Mr.  18 Robinson says:  19  20 "Spookw, Medigmgyet, I received these names on the  21 death of Tommy Muldoe."  22  23 Do you see that Mrs. Wilson-Kenni?  24 A   Yes.  25 Q   Yes.  Now, Tommy Muldoe held the name Spookw; is that  26 correct?  27 A   He held that name in the same way that the present  2 8 Spookw is holding the name Guuhadak.  29 Q   Yes.  Well, when Tommy Muldoe died Steven Robinson  30 took over the name Spookw didn't he?  31 A  When Johnson Alexander died Steven Robinson took the  32 name Spookw.  It's when Medigmgyet died that he -- I  33 mean, Tommy Muldoe died that he got Medigmgyet, what I  34 understand.  35 Q   Okay.  Tommy Muldoe does not appear on the genealogy  36 that you've discussed here, Exhibit 315, does it?  37 A   No.  38 Q   And Tommy Muldoe's children do not appear on the  39 genealogy do they?  40 A  Well, it shouldn't if he's Lax gibuu.  His children  41 would be of his wife's clan.  42 Q   And Tommy Muldoe's mother does not appear on the  43 genealogy does she?  44 A   No, I don't think so.  45 MR. MACKENZIE:   Just moving onto another subject for a minute.  46 THE COURT:  Well, I wonder if I can just —  47 MR. MACKENZIE:  Yes, My Lord. 4284  D.Wilson-Kenni (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Mackenzie  1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  THE COURT:  Is it your position, Mr. Grant, that this statement  on page 9 should read that -- that he also speaks as  Medigmgyet for the members of --  MR. GRANT:  Medigmgyet.  THE COURT:  Medigmgyet for the House of Guuhadak?  MR. GRANT:  Yes.  He says he speaks as Medigmgyet for the  members of Medigmgyet's House.  Medigmgyet, this  witness has described, is a chief in the House of  Guuhadak, so that where it refers to there  Medigmgyet's House, if you want to know the head  chief, he's not saying that that's the head chief of  that house.  The head chief of that house is Guuhadak,  and that's what this witness' evidence is.  That's  what this witness has explained, that that's the same  house, that's why I objected to my friend's -- my  friend's question about that that house is not  referred to in the statement of claim.  THE COURT:  Yes.  All right.  I think I understand.  MR. MACKENZIE: Well, there's no mention of Guuhadak in that  interrogatory number 24.  THE COURT:  Nor is there any mention of a House of Medigmgyet.  He said he speaks for the House of -- Medigmgyet's  House, which I'm now told is Guuhadak.  MR. GRANT:  The head chief is Guuhadak and that's what the  witness' evidence was.  THE COURT:  What is inartisticaly worded is the sentence at the  end of interrogatory number 24.  Instead of saying he  speaks for the members of a house, he said -- and give  a name, he says he speaks for the members of  Medigmgyet's House, which we have been told now is  Guuhadak.  MR. GRANT:  I think that's part of the problem of the whole  process of the interrogatories where we, as you  recall, where I think I worded several thousand  questions which dealt with all these people, in trying  to get it dealt with fast.  THE COURT:  All right.  MR. MACKENZIE:  Q   Now, Mrs. Wilson-Kenni, you're a member of the Roman  Catholic Church?  Pardon me?  Are you a member of the Roman Catholic Church?  Yes.  And you were married in a church?  Yes.  And were your children baptized in the Roman Catholic  Church?  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q 4285  D.Wilson-Kenni (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Mackenzie  1 A   Yes.  2 Q   Now, Mrs. Wilson-Kenni, you testified yesterday that  3 in your early years as band manager you signed some  4 sustenance permits, do you recall that testimony?  5 A   Yes.  6 Q   And you testified further that the band does not issue  7 sustenance permits today, do you recall that  8 testimony?  9 A   Yes.  10 Q   Well, the members of the band still apply for  11 sustenance permits though don't they?  12 A   They probably do, but I wouldn't know who.  13 Q   And it's the case, is it not, that when in the early  14 days you were signing documents, those were  15 applications to the Fish and Wildlife Branch; is that  16 correct?  17 A   Yes.  18 Q   Yes.  And it was the Fish and Wildlife Branch that  19 issued the permits wasn't it?  20 A   Yes.  21 Q   Now, you understand those permits were intended to  22 permit possession of wild game meat outside of the  23 normal hunting season?  24 A   Yes.  25 Q   And I refer you to tab 1 A in the document book.  26 Going through these quickly, if you turn over three  27 pages you'll come to a document entitled "British  28 Columbia Wildlife Act Permit Regulations"; do you have  29 that?  30 A   Yes.  31 Q   Yes.  And that's in the name of Elsie Sebastian dated  32 December 6, 1979.  Is that your signature in the  33 bottom of that document as witness?  34 A   Yes.  35 MR. MACKENZIE:   Next exhibit, My Lord?  36 THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit 327, Tab 1 A.  37  38 (EXHIBIT 327:  Tab 1 A, Application form)  39  40 MR. MACKENZIE:  My Lord, the exhibit number should apply to the  41 application form.  42 Mrs. Kenni, turning to the permit just before  43 Exhibit 327, have you seen that a copy of that  44 document before?  That's a permit issued to Elsie  45 Sebastian dated December 13, 1979.  46 THE COURT:  Well, this is the permit that was issued pursuant to  47 that application is it? 4286  D.Wilson-Kenni (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Mackenzie  1 MR. MACKENZIE:  Yes, My Lord.  2 THE COURT:  Any objection to that?  3 MR. GRANT:  Well, if she can't identify it, I don't see how it's  4 admissible, My Lord.  I mean, I don't know if this was  5 issued out of the band office or --  6 THE COURT:  No, no, it was issued by the Fish and Wildlife  7 Branch.  8 MR. GRANT:  Well, there were different practises in different  9 places.  I understand this signature -- I think  10 sometimes they gave a batch of them to band offices.  11 THE COURT:  Do you know whose signature that is Mrs.  12 Wilson-Kenni?  13 MR. MACKENZIE:  14 Q   Can you —  15 A   On this permit thing here?  16 Q   Do you recognize that signature as Frank Gillian's  17 signature?  18 A   I can make out "Frank" on there.  That's probably  19 Frank, but I've never seen his signature.  20 Q   Do you know who Frank Gillian is?  21 A   Yes.  22 Q   He was a Fish and Wildlife conservation officer wasn't  23 he?  24 A   Yes.  25 MR. MACKENZIE:   Yes.  Well, My Lord, I submit that document as  26 an exhibit.  27 MR. GRANT:  Well —  28 THE WITNESS:   I've never seen this permit before —  29 MR. MACKENZIE:  30 Q   Yes.  31 A   -- I was shown this.  32 Q   You were aware that when you witnessed Elsie  33 Sebastian's application she would apply for a permit  34 to hunt the moose out of season weren't you?  35 A   Yes, but I've never seen the permits.  36 Q   I understand.  37 A   Yes.  38 THE REGISTRAR: Which one is the exhibit, or is it all one  39 exhibit?  4 0 THE COURT:  I think it may be marked as an exhibit.  I don't  41 think it's going to go to any proof of much.  It's  42 part of the narrative of the trial.  It follows in a  43 reasonable order, and from the point of the view for  44 an application, that is an exhibit.  And I have noted,  45 and the evidence is clear, that the witness doesn't  46 know anything about it, and since she hasn't seen it  47 before and she isn't sure about the signature, but she 4287  D.Wilson-Kenni (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Mackenzie  1 recognizes Frank and she knows who this person is and  2 there's enough connection to permit it to be marked,  3 but I don't think proves anything.  4 MR. GRANT:  That's fine, if it doesn't prove anything.  5 THE COURT:  The permit itself will be 327 A.  6  7 (EXHIBIT 327 A:  Permit)  8  9 MR. MACKENZIE:  10 Q   Elsie Sebastian is in the House of Spookw?  11 A   No.  12 Q   No.  Is that Elsie Sebastian the Elsie Sebastian that  13 appears on page 6 of your genealogy, which is Exhibit  14 315, married to Bob Sebastian?  15 A   No.  16 Q   No.  Thank you.  And tab 1 B, turn over to tab 1 B,  17 please, just turn over to the application.  This is  18 Joseph Michael -- sorry, Michael Joseph's application  19 dated January 15, 1980.  Can you identify your  20 signature on that document?  21 A   Yes.  22 MR. MACKENZIE:   Yes.  Next exhibit, My Lord.  23 THE COURT:  Yes.  328.  24 THE REGISTRAR: 328, tab 1 B.  25 MR. GRANT:  It's the application, My Lord.  2 6 THE COURT:  Yes.  27  28 (EXHIBIT 328: Tab IB, application form)  29  30 MR. MACKENZIE:  31 Q   Yes.  And turning over to tab 1 C, application for  32 Nicholas R. Joseph dated January 22, 1980.  Could I  33 have you turn over to the application, please, and  34 could you identify your signature at the bottom of  35 that document, please?  36 A   Yes.  37 MR. MACKENZIE:   Exhibit, My Lord?  3 8 THE COURT:  32 9.  39 THE REGISTRAR: 329.  40 MR. GRANT:  That's again the application.  41 THE COURT:  Yes.  42 THE REGISTRAR: Tab 1 C.  43  44 (EXHIBIT 329: Tab 1 C, application form)  45  46 MR. MACKENZIE:  Now, referring to tab 1 D., it's an application  47 for Charles Austin dated January 22, 1981. 426  D.Wilson-Kenni (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Mackenzie  1 THE REGISTRAR: January 22.  2 MR. MACKENZIE:  3 Q   Yes, January 22, 1981.  Could you turn to the  4 application, please, and identify your signature?  5 A   Yes.  6 MR. MACKENZIE:   Yes.  Next exhibit, My Lord?  7 THE COURT:  330.  8 THE REGISTRAR: 330.  9  10 (EXHIBIT 330:  Tab 1 D, application form)  11  12 MR. MACKENZIE:  Now, Charles Austin —  13 MR. GRANT:  That's the application.  14 THE COURT:  Yes.  15 MR. MACKENZIE:  16 Q   Charles Austin was your stepfather?  17 A   Yes.  18 Q   Yes.  And you recognize his signature on that?  Well,  19 you were there when he signed it weren't you?  20 A   Yes, as the signature witness.  21 Q   Yes, thank you.  By that time you had been at the band  22 manager's office for two years; is that correct?  23 A   Yes.  24 Q   Tab 1 C, or I beg your pardon, 1 E, letter to Fish and  25 Wildlife dated January 15, 1982 regarding Francis  26 Pierre.  Could you identify your signature at the  27 bottom of that document, please?  28 A   Yes.  29 MR. MACKENZIE:   Next exhibit, My Lord.  30 THE COURT:  331.  31 THE REGISTRAR: 331.  32  33 (EXHIBIT 331:  Tab IE, letter dated January 15, 1982)  34  35 MR. MACKENZIE:  36 Q   Now, turning to tab 1 F, it's a letter dated January  37 15, 1982, to the Fish and Wildlife with respect to  38 Stanley George.  Can you identify your signature on  39 that document, please?  40 A   Yes.  41 MR. MACKENZIE:   Next exhibit, please, My Lord.  42 THE COURT:  332.  43  44 (EXHIBIT 332: Tab IF, letter dated January 15, 1982)  45  46 MR. MACKENZIE:  47 Q   Now, referring to tab 1 G in the document book, this 4289  D.Wilson-Kenni (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Mackenzie  1 is an application for sustenance permit for James M.  2 Joseph dated December 12, 1986, and that's your uncle  3 is it Mrs. —  4 A   Yes.  5 Q   -- Wilson-Kenni?  And you see Michael Joseph is  6 indicated as a designated hunter.  Is that his son?  7 A   Yes.  8 Q   And you can identify your uncle's signature?  9 A   Yes.  10 Q   And going over to the third page, the fourth --  11 correction, the fourth page, proof of social  12 assistance, there's a signature there, a Victor Austin  13 Senior.  Is that a member of your family?  14 A   Yes.  15 Q   Yes.  Is that your brother?  16 A   Yes.  17 Q   Stepbrother.  Can you identify that signature?  18 A   Yes, that's Victor's.  19 Q   Could that whole tab be marked as an exhibit, My Lord?  2 0 A  At that time he was --  21 Q   Oh, I beg your pardon?  22 A   He was told not to fill out any more of these or sign  23 any of these.  He was not aware that the band office  24 was not going to be a party to any of these permits  25 and he was spoken to quite severely about it because  26 those other ones there, the only reason that I signed  27 them is because the people persuaded me that if I  28 didn't that they were in danger of losing their guns,  29 that -- they told me that they would take their guns  30 away if they didn't have a permit.  31 THE COURT:  All right.  Those three pages can be Exhibit 333.  32 THE REGISTRAR: 333.  33  34 (EXHIBIT 333: Application for sustenance permit)  35  36 MR. MACKENZIE:  37 Q   So to your knowledge -- I'm sorry, I'll rephrase that  38 question.  Is it your testimony that members of the  39 band now hunt in the winter without permits?  40 A   Yes.  41 Q   Yes.  And they hunt outside the normal hunting season  42 without permits?  43 A   They hunt whenever they feel it's the right time to  4 4 hunt.  45 Q   Yes.  And they will hunt after the close of the  46 provincial hunting season without permits?  47 A   It depends on when that's closed. 4290  D.Wilson-Kenni (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Mackenzie  1 Q   Yes.  Are you aware that the provincial hunting season  2 closes in -- sometime in November usually each year?  3 A  All right.  4 Q   Yes?  5 A   Yes.  6 Q   And the band members, to your knowledge, hunt after  7 that closure?  8 A   Sometimes.  9 Q   Yes.  And they hunt without permits?  10 A   Yes.  11 Q   Now, you'll agree with me that it's important to  12 conserve the wildlife in Spookw's territory?  13 A   Pardon me?  14 Q   I'm sorry.  You'll agree with me that it's important  15 to conserve the wildlife in Spookw's territory?  16 A   Yes, it is.  17 Q   Yes?  18 A  And if Wildlife was very concerned about it, they  19 would have been concerned when they saw those moose  2 0 dumped in the garbage dump.  21 Q   Yes.  22 A  At least Indian people make use of every bit of it,  23 not throw it in the garbage dump.  24 Q   Yes.  You don't know where that moose came from do  25 you?  26 A   No, but I'm very sure it wasn't an Indian.  27 Q   Yes.  And there is increasing hunting pressure on the  28 wildlife resource in that area isn't there?  2 9 A  What do you mean?  30 Q   I mean there are a lot of white hunters coming into  31 the area now aren't there?  32 A   Yes, there are.  33 Q   So there is increasing pressure on the wildlife  34 resource, aren't there?  35 A   I don't know.  36 Q   And you agree with me that it's necessary to regulate  37 hunting to conserve the wildlife?  38 A  Well, we always knew that.  39 Q   And you're aware that the provincial game laws are  40 passed to protect the wildlife?  41 A  Well, I should hope they are.  42 MR. MACKENZIE:   Now, moving on to another subject, Mrs.  43 Wilson-Kenni, I'd like to speak a bit about the  44 genealogy, and that appears at tab 1 of the  45 plaintiffs' document book, it's Exhibit 315, and it  46 may be convenient for you to have that in front of  47 you.  Thank you very much.  I'll just move that out of 4291  D.Wilson-Kenni (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Mackenzie  1  2  THE  COURT  3  MR.  MACKE  4  THE  COURT  5  6  MR.  GRANT  7  8  9  10  11  12  THE  COURT  13  MR.  GRANT  14  15  16  17  THE  COURT  18  MR.  GRANT  19  20  21  22  23  THE  COURT  24  25  MR.  GRANT  26  27  28  THE  COURT  29  MR.  GRANT  30  THE  COURT  31  MR.  GRANT  32  MR.  MACKE  33  Q  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  A  41  Q  42  43  A  44  Q  45  46  47  A  your way.  Yes.  You have that genealogy now.  May I clarify something Mr. Mackenzie?  ZIE:  Yes, My Lord.  Does the genealogy include just the members of the  family of Spookw?  Well, My Lord, I think if, as this witness I think  said on direct and as other witnesses have said, if  you take, for example, I'll just give you an example,  on page 2 there you have Thomas Wilson, who's the son  of Josephine and Phillip, and then his spouse Mathilda  Samson.  Yes.  Now.  Mathilda Samson -- and in that case, not  always, but in that case under Mathilda Samson's name  is "(Wii gyet)".  Well, Mathilda Samson is the spouse  of Thomas Wilson who is not a member of the house.  Well, apart from spouses.  It would include members of the house apart from  spouses.  So, for example, in a case where it's a  marriage of the -- of a son in the house to another  woman, those children aren't shown on the genealogy  because they're not a part of that house.  All right.  So then it is a genealogy not of the  family of Spookw, but of the House of Spookw?  It is a genealogy of the House of Spookw including  spouses and of course deceased persons and all of the  children.  The intent is that all of the children --  And the children are of the female member's house?  Which would be members of the house themselves.  All right.  Thank you.  And the witness may confirm that if you wish.  ZIE:  Now, Mrs. Wilson-Kenni, you testified the other day  that -- and this morning, that aside from corrections  which you have made, this Exhibit 315 now accurately  sets out the members of Spookw; is that your  testimony?  And perhaps I should add, it also includes  spouses of the Spookw members, would you agree with  that?  Yes.  And during your testimony in chief you corrected  several errors on the Exhibit 315 didn't you?  Yes.  Yes.  For example, on page 6 of the genealogy you've  pointed out that -- was it your great-grandmother --  great-great-grandmother who died in childbirth?  My great-grandmother. 4292  D.Wilson-Kenni (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Mackenzie  1 Q   Yes, that was Mary?  2 A  Mary Yaga'lahl.  3 Q   Mare Yaga'lahl, and that's on page 5 isn't it?  4 A   Yes.  5 Q   Yes.  I beg your pardon.  And -- but on page 6 and 7  6 you pointed out that your Uncle Willy Wilson was  7 married first to Alice Kangoot; correct?  8 A   Yes.  9 MR. GRANT:  Who is on the genealogy.  10 MR. MACKENZIE:  11 Q   Yes.  And you said "I don't know why Euphrasie is on  12 these." first, didn't you?  13 A   Yes.  14 Q   Now, on page 7 you also testified that Abraham has  15 been adopted into the House of Gisdaywa; correct?  16 A   Yes.  17 Q   So that entry on page 7 should be corrected to show  18 that Abraham is no longer in the House of Spookw?  19 A   That's right.  20 Q   So in accordance with the symbology for these  21 genealogies, a line should be drawn through that  22 triangle; is that right?  23 A   Yes.  2 4 THE COURT:  On page 7?  25 MR. MACKENZIE:  Page 7 at the bottom, My Lord.  2 6 THE COURT:  Oh, yes.  27 MR. MACKENZIE:  28 Q   And you mentioned I think your Aunt Virginia Wilson  29 and her funeral feast.  I haven't been able -- is she  30 on the genealogy?  Is she your mother's sister,  31 Virginia Wilson?  32 A   No, Virginia Wilson was my cousin.  33 Q   Oh, yes?  34 A  And she was Josephine's daughter.  35 Q   Yes?  36 A   She died when she was quite young.  37 Q   Yes.  And Josephine appears on page 2 of the  38 genealogy, doesn't she?  39 A   Yes.  40 Q   But Virginia is not shown on there, is she?  41 A   Yes, she is.  42 Q   Oh, I beg your pardon.  I'm sorry.  43 A   She's on page 3.  44 Q   Oh, sorry.  45 A   It's -- this line continues from --  46 Q   Yes.  47 A   -- page 2 over to 3. 4293  D.Wilson-Kenni (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Mackenzie  1 MR. MACKENZIE:   Thank you very much.  You're right.  So other  2 than those errors, as you say --  3 MR. GRANT:  Well, that wasn't an error.  4 MR. MACKENZIE:  I'm sorry, beg your pardon, that wasn't an  5 error, that was my error.  6 THE COURT:  That's an error.  7 MR. MACKENZIE:  8 Q   That's right.  That's correct, My Lord, and so we're  9 all agreed on that.  10 Other than those errors, the genealogy is correct  11 as far as you're concerned; is that correct?  12 A   So far as I know.  Yes.  13 Q   Okay.  Well, I'll just —  14 A   Hopefully there's another born right now.  15 Q   That's right.  It keeps changing, doesn't it?  16 A   Yes.  17 Q   And it also changes in the sense that as more research  18 is done more names are discovered; is that correct?  19 A  Well, yes.  20 Q   Yes.  Research is ongoing, isn't it?  21 A   Yes.  22 Q   Yes.  Now, referring to just a couple of items for  23 clarification on page 6.  Do you have page 6 there?  24 A   Yes.  25 Q   Matthew Wilson, your uncle, appears there?  26 A   Yes.  27 Q   And he should be noted as having passed away; is that  28 correct?  29 A   Yes.  30 MR. MACKENZIE:   Yes.  So —  31 MR. GRANT:  He is I believe.  32 THE WITNESS:   There is a dot on there.  33 MR. MACKENZIE:  Yes, I haven't got that on mine.  I'm sorry, I  34 didn't see that.  I may have got an old -- or one  35 that's -- okay.  36 THE COURT:  Who's the most ancient person on this genealogy?  I  37 suppose we have to go to the middle for that do we?  38 THE WITNESS:   Yes.  39 MR. GRANT:  Page 6 and page 31 and 32, My Lord, would show the  40 three -- the oldest generation shown.  41 THE COURT:  31 —  42 MR. GRANT:  31 and 32 and page 6, if you just combine those  43 together, would be the three sisters, Margaret  44 Yaga'lahl, Azel Duncan, and Fanny Spookw.  45 THE COURT:  Page 6.  I see.  46 THE WITNESS:   But there should be another line going up to  47 another Spookw from Fanny Spookw, but we're -- we're 4294  D.Wilson-Kenni (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Mackenzie  still researching that area, but we do know there's  another Spookw and on and on it goes because there's  always a Spookw.  MACKENZIE:  Well, My Lord, I have to apologize.  I'm using  the copy Mr. Grant gave me last week and it obviously  is not the same as the one that he's put in as an  exhibit and so that's the reason for my -- the errors.  I'm sorry.  GRANT:  Well, yes, I must say, My Lord, that yes, Mr.  Mackenzie has referred to in Mr. Plant's discussion  with me last week he attended to my office and I gave  it to him, I gave him a photocopy on that week -- that  off week, and I had not had an opportunity to review  that with the witness and --  MACKENZIE:  So —  GRANT:  -- the witness has corrected certain things with me.  COURT:  All right.  MACKENZIE:  So I'm sorry about that.  I'll move on a little  quickly then.  Now, I'm referring to tab 6 again in the book of  documents, in the plaintiffs' book of documents.  COURT:  I'm sorry?  MACKENZIE:  Beg your pardon, the defendant's book of  documents, that's Mr. Robinson's interrogatories.  If  you could keep the genealogy open, please, I'll just  get -- My Lord, while we're opening to tab 6, may I  have the interrogatory number 24 marked as an exhibit  with the affidavit, please?  GRANT:  Is that the one with the number 13 as well?  I mean  it's all together in one?  MACKENZIE:  I'm just marking 24 at the present time, My  Lord.  COURT:  That's all right.  That will be exhibit —  GRANT:  With the affidavit?  MACKENZIE:  Yes, please.  REGISTRAR: Exhibit 334, My Lord.  COURT:  All right.  (EXHIBIT 334: Interrogatory number 24 and affidavit)  MACKENZIE:  That's with the interrogatory 24.  Thank you.  My friend has assisted me and indicated for  clarification the interrogatory number 24 appears on  pages 6, 7, 8 and 9 following the affidavit at tab 6.  COURT:  Yes.  MACKENZIE:  Q   Well, Mrs. Wilson-Kenni, Mr. Robinson indicates that  1  2  3  4  MR.  5  6  7  8  9  MR.  10  11  12  13  14  15  MR.  16  MR.  17  THE  18  MR.  19  20  21  22  THE  23  MR.  24  25  26  27  28  29  MR.  30  31  MR.  32  33  THE  34  MR.  35  MR.  36  THE  37  THE  38  39  40  41  MR.  42  43  44  45  THE  46  MR.  47 4295  D.Wilson-Kenni (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Mackenzie  1 he has set out in interrogatory 24 the members of the  2 House of Spookw who he recalls, and you will see there  3 he refers to "based on research gathered to date", and  4 you've already agreed with me that Exhibit 315 was  5 based on research haven't you?  6 A   Yes.  7 Q   Yes.  And did Heather Harris prepare the genealogy  8 which is Exhibit 315?  9 A   Partly.  10 Q   She -- when you say "partly", she prepared a draft and  11 you reviewed it?  12 A   Yes.  13 Q   Yes.  And can you tell me, please, when you first  14 reviewed the draft genealogy?  15 A  When?  16 Q   Yes.  17 A   I think it was last April, last year April.  18 Q   April 1987?  19 A   Yes.  20 Q   Okay.  Well, referring to page 4 on the genealogy,  21 Exhibit 315, and page 7 in Mr. Robinson's  22 interrogatory, I see that Mr. Robinson lists several  23 people with the name "Soldie", S-o-l-d-i-e.  Now, can  24 you see that on page 7 of the interrogatories about --  25 on the left-hand column?  26 A   Oh, yes.  27 Q   About a quarter of the way down?  28 A   Yes.  29 Q   Yes.  And on your genealogy page 4 there are several  30 people with the name "Sholty", S-h-o-l-t-y.  Now,  31 who's in error there?  32 A   It's Sholty.  33 Q   I see.  So Mr. Robinson's list is incorrect there.  34 Now, further down on Mr. Robinson's list about  35 half-way down he refers to Justin Joseph born 1982?  36 A   Yes.  37 Q   And I see on the genealogy -- I haven't been able to  38 find him on the genealogy?  39 A   He's -- Justin is on page 2.  40 Q   Oh, yes.  41 A   Under Virginia Duncan and Walter Joseph Junior.  42 Q   Oh, yes.  Yes.  I don't have that on my copy.  Now,  43 going down to the bottom I see that Mr. Robinson has  44 Ida Dennis.  Now, that's your sister Ida, isn't it?  45 A   Yes, that's Ida Austin.  46 Q   Ida Austin.  And her name is Austin?  47 A   Yes. 4296  D.Wilson-Kenni (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Mackenzie  1 Q   This affidavit of Mr. Robinson's was sworn in February  2 and at that time Ida was still in the House of  3 Gisdaywa wasn't she, February 1987?  4 A   February 1987?  February, yes.  5 Q   Yes.  And so Mr. Robinson is incorrect to include her  6 as a member of the House of Spookw in February 1987  7 isn't he?  8 A   Yes.  9 Q   Now, just looking over quickly to page 20 of the  10 genealogy, and I see that on page 20 of the genealogy,  11 Exhibit 315, "Robert Erickson" is noted.  Do you have  12 him there, Robert Erickson?  13 A   Yes.  14 Q   As being deceased?  15 A   Yes.  16 Q   Well, looking at Mr. Robinson's list, page 8, just  17 about three-quarters of the way down, "Robert  18 Erickson" is listed there.  Is that the same Robert  19 Erickson?  20 A   Yes, Robert died recently.  21 Q   I see.  22 A   Yes.  23 MR. MACKENZIE:   Now, page 23 of the genealogy, Exhibit 315.  24 THE COURT:  Where, I'm sorry?  25 MR. MACKENZIE:  26 Q   Page 23 of the genealogy, My Lord, referring to Sophie  27 Isaac, her name on the genealogy -- do you have that?  28 Her name is now Sophie Ogen?  29 A   Yes.  30 Q   Well, Mr. Robinson's page 8, about four lines up from  31 the bottom, he has a "Sophie Dean".  Do you know who  32 Sophie Dean is?  33 A   That's Sophie Ogen.  That's just a mistake on there.  34 That's Sophie Ogen.  35 Q   I see.  And then over on the next page, page 9,  36 "Michael Dean".  Is that a mistake also?  37 A   Yes.  38 Q   I'm referring to Mr. Robinson's interrogatory number  39 24.  And "Barry Dean", that's a mistake also?  40 A   Yes.  41 Q   Yes?  42 A   Yes.  43 Q   "Maureen Dean", that's a mistake?  44 A   Yes.  45 Q   Yes.  And "Daniel Dean"?  46 A   It's supposed to be Ogen.  47 Q   That should all be Ogen? 4297  D.Wilson-Kenni (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Mackenzie  1 A   Yes.  2 Q   There are no Deans on the genealogy at all, are there?  3 A   No.  4 Q   No.  Now, the interrogatory at page 9 has -- about  5 half-way down has "Rita George" and "Brian George" as  6 being included in the house.  Do you see that?  7 A   Oh, yes.  8 Q   That's wrong isn't it?  9 A   Yes.  10 Q   And the interrogatory at page 9 has "Roy Morris" also  11 as being included in the house, do you see that about  12 three-quarters of the way down?  13 A   Right.  14 Q   And that's -- that contradicts the genealogy too  15 doesn't it?  16 A  Well, he's in the genealogy, but I think he's got a  17 line through them.  18 Q   He appears on page 27 of the genealogy?  19 A   Yes.  He's got a line through his.  20 Q   Yes, so that's —  21 A   Rita and Brian also have a line through the page 25.  22 Q   Yes, that's good.  Now, just looking at page 30 of the  23 genealogy and starting with -- you have "Mary Tom" and  24 her family on page 30 of the genealogy?  25 A   Yes.  26 Q   Well, can you confirm that the names of those people  27 and the succeeding pages don't appear on the list in  28 the interrogatory?  Those people are all deceased on  29 page 30 aren't they?  30 A   Yes.  31 Q   Well, moving over to page 31, I take it "Sarah  32 Charlie" would be -- at page 31 "Sarah Charlie" would  33 still be a member?  She's deceased?  34 A   Yes.  35 Q   So that should be noted as being deceased there?  36 A   Yes.  37 Q   And "William Charlie" is deceased, that should be  38 noted as being deceased, still referring to page 31,  39 "William Charlie"?  I'm sorry, page 31?  40 A   I don't know if he's deceased.  41 Q   I see.  Okay.  Would he be a member of the House of  42 Spookw?  43 A   No, he's not connected to the line there.  44 Q   No, that's right.  How about "Madeline Charlie" on  45 page 32?  46 A   Pardon me?  47 MR. MACKENZIE:   Madeline Charlie on page 32? 4296  D.Wilson-Kenni (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Mackenzie  1 MR. GRANT:  What is the question?  2 MR. MACKENZIE:  3 Q I beg your pardon.  4 A As far as I know she's alive.  5 Q She's alive?  6 A Yes.  7 Q And her name is not included in the interrogatory is  8 it?  9 A No.  10 THE COURT:  Madeline Charlie?  11 MR. MACKENZIE:  12 Q Madeline Charlie on page 32.  And "John Charlie" on  13 page 32, is he deceased?  14 A Yes.  15 Q So that should be noted as being deceased, right?  16 A Oh, yes.  17 Q Yes.  And "Alex Charlie" on page 32, is he still  18 alive?  19 A I'm not too sure.  2 0 Q All right.  21 A My mother would know that.  22 Q Oh, yes.  But his name does not appear on the  23 interrogatory does it?  24 A No.  25 Q And moving over to page 33, "Walter Bob", is he still  26 alive?  27 A Walter Bob, I don't know.  I didn't ask my mother  28 whether he was still alive or not.  29 Q His name doesn't appear on the interrogatory does it?  30 A No.  31 Q And "Mable Bob", do you know anything about Mable?  32 A No.  33 Q No.  Her name doesn't appear in the interrogatory does  34 it?  35 A I don't think any of these names on 33 or 34.  It  36 stops right there.  37 Q It stops at "Eileen Wilson" doesn't it?  38 A Yes.  39 Q Well, I take it that there'd been ongoing research and  40 it turned up new names, is that the case, after Mr.  41 Robinson made this list?  42 A Yes.  Well, this is —  43 Q You're referring to the interrogatory?  44 A Yes, Steven's.  45 Q Yes, I'm sorry, I didn't mean to interrupt you.  46 A This interrogatory is Steven's.  I haven't read it.  47 Q Oh, I understand that, yes, but we're just going 4299  D.Wilson-Kenni (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Mackenzie  1 through the list there.  2 A   Yes.  3 Q   And it was attached to an affidavit sworn in February  4 1987, and my question to you is that I take it that  5 the research has been going on since then and has  6 turned up new names; is that a fair statement?  7 A  Well, not just since then.  8 Q   Oh, I'm sorry.  9 A   It's been going on for a long time.  10 Q   I understand that.  11 A  We always want to know who our relatives are.  12 Q   Yes.  So as research continues, you find increasing  13 accuracy; is that correct?  14 A   Uh-huh.  15 Q   Yes.  And you eliminate the errors as you do more  16 research?  17 A   Yes.  18 Q   So I take it from your comments that, as you say, your  19 mother knows about the genealogy, but you don't have  20 personal knowledge about the people over in the  21 farther pages?  22 A   That's right, but she knows most of them.  23 Q   Yes.  Now, you've already told us, but let me just  24 confirm with you, that Steven Robinson, who's Spookw,  25 appears on page 1 of the genealogy, doesn't he?  26 A   Yes.  27 Q   And you testified today that I take it since this  28 Exhibit 315 was prepared that is it the case that  29 Steven Robinson has adopted people into the -- Steven  30 Robinson's children and grandchildren have been  31 adopted into the house?  32 A   His grandchildren --  33 Q   Yes.  34 A   -- have been adopted into the house.  35 Q   Okay.  When were they adopted into the house?  36 A   I don't know, but it was at a feast that I wasn't at.  37 Q   Oh, yes.  Do you know what year that might be?  38 A   I have no idea.  39 Q   Thank you.  But Steven Robinson's father was Walter  40 Bob Robinson wasn't it?  41 A   Yes.  42 Q   And his mother was Molly Robinson; correct?  43 A   Yes.  44 Q   Yes.  And she's not a member of the House of Spookw is  45 she?  46 A   I don't think so.  47 Q   Well, she doesn't appear on the genealogy does she? 15 THE COURT  16 MR. GRANT  17 THE COURT  4300  D.Wilson-Kenni (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Mackenzie  1 A   No.  2 Q   And Bob Robinson doesn't appear on the genealogy does  3 he?  4 A   No.  5 Q   No.  And Steven Robinson's sister is Joyce Robinson,  6 now Turner, isn't it?  7 A   Yes.  8 Q   And her chief's name is Yagosip?  9 A   Yes.  10 Q   Y-a-g-o-s-i-p?  11 A   Yes.  12 Q   She doesn't appear on the genealogy does she?  13 A   No.  14 MR. MACKENZIE:   No.  What was the name?  Chief's name was Yagosip, My Lord, Y-a-g-o-s-i-p.  But her other name?  18 MR. MACKENZIE:  19 Q   Joyce Robinson, now Turner.  Her married name is  20 Turner; is that correct, Mrs. --  21 A   Yes.  22 Q   -- Wilson-Kenni?  And on page 1 we also have "Edward  23 Clark" don't we?  24 A   Yes.  25 Q   And his parents don't appear on the genealogy do they?  2 6 A   No.  27 Q   No.  And you have "Frank Clark" also don't you?  28 A   Yes.  29 Q   His parents don't appear on the genealogy do they?  30 A   No.  31 Q   No.  And so they are not related by blood to anyone  32 now alive in the House of Spookw are they?  33 A   I don't know about that.  We're still trying to find  34 out about -- about Edward and Frank Clark.  35 Q   And other than the newly adopted grandchildren, Steven  36 Robinson is not related by blood to any other present  37 living member of the House of Spookw is he?  38 A   I can't say that for sure, and that's why we have to  39 do more research to see the connection here.  40 Q   Yes?  41 A   Because there has to be a connection.  42 THE COURT:  Well, can you tell me how it is that he's in the  43 House of Spookw if his mother wasn't in the house?  44 THE WITNESS:   Because at the time that Johnson Alexander passed  45 away, the one that was to take the name was not well,  46 he was very ill and wasn't even able to attend the  47 funeral, and at that time it was decided that Steve 4301  D.Wilson-Kenni (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Mackenzie  1 would be taking care of that name until one of us was  2 ready for it.  3 THE COURT:  I see.  All right.  4 MR. MACKENZIE:  Referring now, My Lord, to an interrogatory  5 which is not in the binder, but I will make a copy  6 available.  Referring to interrogatory number 27,  7 which I have a copy for Mrs. Wilson-Kenni to read --  8 and I'll provide Your Lordship with a copy, I expected  9 it to be here by now, but perhaps after the break.  10 Interrogatory 27 --  11 MR. GRANT:  Steve Robinson?  12 MR. MACKENZIE:  13 Q   Yes, Steve Robinson.  Steve Robinson says on  14 interrogatory 27, I will read that interrogatory,  15 it's:  16  17 "What do you understand the word 'house' to mean  18 as it is used to describe you in paragraph 1 of  19 the further amended statement of claim?"  20  21 And Steven Robinson says:  22  23 "House means Wilp, W-i-l-p, the kinship group into  24 which I was born.  I belong to the Wilp because my  25 mother is a member of that house."  26  27 Well, that statement is incorrect, isn't it,  28 Mrs. —  29 A   I don't know if it's incorrect.  30 Q   I'm sorry?  31 A   I can't be sure and say that it is because it may turn  32 out that, you know, through the years that have passed  33 with the different Spookws that there is a definite  34 link.  35 Q   Yes, I understand what you're saying.  36 A   So I can't say that that's not true.  37 MR. MACKENZIE:   Can you agree with me that —  38 MR. GRANT:  Well, just one moment, My Lord.  39 MR. MACKENZIE:  Sorry.  4 0 THE COURT:  Yes?  41 MR. GRANT:  If Mr. Mackenzie wishes to put that to him, I think  42 Mr. Mackenzie should also put to the witness the  43 answer to paragraph -- to question 18 in which Mr.  44 Robinson describes who his mother is and where she is  45 from.  46 MR. MACKENZIE:  Oh, yes, I'm pleased to do that.  I thought we'd  47 established that, My Lord, but I'm pleased to do that. 4302  D.Wilson-Kenni (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Mackenzie  1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  MR.  THE  MR.  THE  MR.  THE  MR.  THE COURT  MR.  MR.  GRANT:  That's the answer to question 18 of the  interrogatory, the third paragraph refers to the  mother.  COURT:  Well, what you really want is interrogatory 27 is  it?  MACKENZIE:  That's correct, My Lord.  COURT:  Now, you're going to put number 18.  MACKENZIE: Well, My Lord in my submission they don't —  they're not related, but I don't have any objection to  reading it.  COURT:  Well, it —  GRANT:  Well, he describes who his mother is and where she  came from.  But this is not discovery, this is  cross-examination, but Mr. Mackenzie's going to read  it anyway he says.  MACKENZIE:  Q   Mrs. Wilson-Kenni, let me ask you a question before  you start reading that, if I may?  You've agreed with  me that Steven Robinson's mother was Molly Robinson;  correct?  And she was a member of the Lax gibuu clan?  You don't know her house?  And interrogatory number 18 doesn't indicate what  Molly Robinson's house is?  You're reading  interrogatory 18?  A   18?  MACKENZIE:   Well, My Lord, I don't wish to put  interrogatory 18 to Mrs. Wilson-Kenni.  I don't think  it's related and I think that Mrs. Wilson-Kenni has  agreed with the questions that relate to that  interrogatory anyway.  Well, what it does say, My Lord, interrogatory 18  gives the name, the Gitksan name of Mrs. Robinson,  which my friend has avoided putting to the witness,  and the witness said she hadn't had an opportunity to  review this interrogatory, and it was part of the  answer about who his mother was.  That's the reason  why I said it was directly related to what he was  asking.  Well, I don't think -- the rule that things are  related, or connected as the word is used, in relation  to some other parts of this doesn't apply here.  I  don't think Mr. Mackenzie has to put it to the  A  Yes  Q  Yes  A  Yes  Q  Yes  A  No.  Q  No.  MR. GRANT  THE COURT 4303  D.Wilson-Kenni (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Mackenzie  1 witness.  It may be a matter for re-examination.  2 Shall we take the afternoon adjournment?  3 MR. MACKENZIE:  Thank you, My Lord.  4 THE REGISTRAR: Order in court.  Court will recess.  5  6 (PROCEEDINGS ADJOURNED FOR AFTERNOON RECESS)  7  8 I hereby certify the foregoing to  9 be a true and accurate transcript  10 of the proceedings herein to the  11 best of my skill and ability.  12  13  14 Tanita S. French  15 Official Reporter  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47 4304  D.Wilson Kenni (For Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Mackenzie  1 (PROCEEDINGS RESUMED FOLLOWING SHORT RECESS)  2 DORA WILSON KENNI, Resumed:  3  4 CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR. MACKENZIE:   (Continued)  5  6 THE COURT:  Mr. Mackenzie?  7 MR. MACKENZIE:  Thank you, my lord.  8 Q   So, I understand your evidence, Mrs. Wilson Kenni that  9 Steven Robinson is taking care of the name Spookw; is  10 that correct?  11 A   Yes.  12 Q   And he took the name when Tommy Muldoe died?  13 A  When Johnson Alexander died.  14 Q   Now, I have already -- sorry, I may have misunderstood  15 your answer now, but interrogatory 13, I think I read  16 this before, and I put it more formally now,  17 interrogatory 13, and I think it appears at tab 6, on  18 page 2 in the booklet of documents, and, "What are the  19 Gitksan names you have held since birth to the extent  20 that your recollection permits?  State the time, when,  21 and the manner by which you acquired each of these  22 names."  And then Steven Robinson mentions two earlier  23 names and in sub paragraph (c), he says, "Spookw,  24 Medigmgyet.  I received these names on the death of  2 5 Tommy Muldoe."  26 So you are saying that that's not true, but he got  27 them some other time?  28 A  Well, it's got both names in there, Medigmgyet that he  29 got.  30 THE COURT:  But you say he got the name Spookw on the death of  31 Johnson Alexander, not on the death of Tommy Muldoe?  32 A   No.  33 MR. MACKENZIE:  Does your lordship wish to have that 13 marked  34 as another exhibit number or can we just take it now  35 that it's part of Exhibit 334?  36 THE COURT:  No, I don't think — it's in, you can put it in if  37 you want.  You have that evidence.  If you put it in  38 it's only for the, either convenience or for the  39 purpose of putting in as evidence the other parts of  40 the answer.  It's up to you to put it in if you want.  41 MR. MACKENZIE:  Thank you.  I don't think there is any need to  42 put that in.  43 THE COURT:  All right.  44 MR. MACKENZIE:  45 Q   And you were out of the country when Johnson Alexander  46 died, was that in the '50s, 1950s?  47 A   No, Johnson Alexander died in '72. 4305  D.Wilson Kenni (For Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Mackenzie  1 Q   Oh, yes.  So Steven Robinson, in your testimony, your  2 evidence is that he took the name Spookw in 1972; is  3 that correct?  4 A   Yes.  5 Q   And he has been taking care of the name since 1972,  6 correct?  7 A   Yes.  8 Q   And you say he is taking care of the name until one of  9 the other members is ready; is that right?  10 A   Yes.  11 Q   Now he has been taking care of the name for 16 years,  12 when do you anticipate that one of the other members  13 will be able to take the name?  14 A   He will know when we are ready.  15 Q   Now, continuing to refer to Steven Robinson's  16 interrogatories, while we have them available, I am  17 referring now to interrogatory 59 (c), which actually  18 appears on page 18, after tab 6 in the document book.  19 What appears on page 18 is the sub paragraph (c),  20 "What are the boundaries of your house's territory?"  21 "The approximate boundaries of Spookw's territory are  22 included in the map which is set out in Schedule "C",  23 except for my fishing sites.  Yagosip has different  24 territories."  And are you aware that Yagosip has  25 different territories?  26 A   Yes.  27 Q   I am going to go to the pocket at tab 6, and this is  28 the map that was delivered with this interrogatory,  29 Schedule "C", while you are opening the map, I am  30 going to take the genealogy out, because we are  31 finished with the genealogy.  32 MR. GRANT:  From my recollection, my lord, just to be clear, and  33 my friend may correct me if I am wrong on this, is  34 that there were actually two maps attached to the  35 interrogatory and I think he has actually appended the  36 second map at the end of tab seven.  37 MR. MACKENZIE:  Well, I am sorry, that's not correct, my lord.  38 Your lordship will note in interrogatory 59 (c) that,  39 we just read --  40 THE COURT:  This is described as Schedule "C" to that  41 interrogatory.  42 MR. MACKENZIE:  That's our notation.  43 MR. GRANT:  That's their notation, it's not a notation from —  44 THE COURT:  All right.  45 MR. MACKENZIE:  My lord, I refer —  46 THE COURT:  This doesn't include the village of Hagwilget?  47 MR. MACKENZIE:  No, it doesn't, this is a territory which 4306  D.Wilson Kenni (For Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Mackenzie  1 appears to border the Skeena River, including Seeley  2 Lake Park and also Carnaby.  And --  3 MR. GRANT:  It does not include Kitsegukla River.  4 MR. MACKENZIE:  I don't know why my friend says that, because we  5 will see later that it appears to encroach on the  6 Gitksan Reserve.  But the point I wish to get to now,  7 that is interrogatory 59 (c) says, refers to the map,  8 singular, which is set out in Schedule "C".  And  9 except for the fishing sites.  10 Now, my lord, I would submit this map as the next  11 exhibit, based on that interrogatory and this is the  12 map that was delivered to the province with the  13 interrogatory 59 (c).  14 THE COURT:  All right.  This map will be exhibit —  15 THE REGISTRAR:  335.  16  17 (EXHIBIT 335:  INTERROGATORY 59 (c) WITH ATTACHED MAP)  18  19 THE COURT:  What do you say, Mr. Grant, that there was a second  20 map delivered with the interrogatories?  21 MR. GRANT:  I don't have my copy but I must advise the court  22 that in order to expedite matters there were certain  23 standardized answers put in and the use of the word  24 singular in 59 (c) was used in circumstances in which  25 there was more than one map in other cases.  My  26 recollection was that there were two maps with this.  27 I will check my own file and I will advise the court  28 because I kept a copy as well.  I don't have it with  29 me in the court to check that.  30 THE COURT:  What are you saying, you believe there were two maps  31 delivered with the interrogatories?  32 MR. GRANT:  Yes.  If my friend says, if my friend confirms to  33 the court that this is one of those maps, I have no  34 difficulty with that.  I wish to confirm with my own  35 file that I was under the impression that two maps  36 actually were delivered with this interrogatory and if  37 so, I would want that to be noted or dealt with.  38 THE COURT:  Are you in a position to say whether there was one  39 map or two maps Mr. Mackenzie?  40 MR. MACKENZIE:  Yes, my lord, and I presume my friends acting  41 for Canada will support me on this, what in fact  42 happened is that we got, we received this map and only  43 this map, speaking for the province, and as I  44 understand it from my friend Mr. Macaulay, and his  45 colleagues, they received a map similar to this, the  46 same territory, different edition.  And I have that at  47 the next tab and I will refer to that because I think 4307  D.Wilson Kenni (For Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Mackenzie  1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  THE COURT  MR. GRANT  THE  MR.  COURT  GRANT  it may be significant to see the changes between the  two maps.  But it's the same location.  So that's my  understanding of Canada's position, and that's  certainly what happened with the province, my lord.  And, my lord, we would be most happy to receive  another map, even at this late date, from my friend.  He still owes us several maps for these  interrogatories which were delivered in January and  February, 1986, I think.  But be that as it may, I am  willing to have my friend check his files because I  would be interested in the answer to that search as  well.  Are you saying, Mr. Grant, there is another map  showing the other territory which appears on Exhibit  5?  I am speaking from recollection. It's something I  must check. But my understanding was that there was  two maps delivered.  And one showed the other territory as in Exhibit 5?  Approximately, yes.  These were drafts, as you can  see this is a draft copy as was the other, and I am  sure my friend will elucidate all the variations there  are in the draft.  But I wish to check that and it  appears that from what my friend has indicated, this  is the first time I was aware that a different map was  sent to Canada than to British Columbia.  And of  course, that in itself is indicative that there was  probably some inadvertent error on the part of my  office.  However, I am not sure.  Not necessarily.  Your friend said it was a  different edition of the same map.  That may not have  been in error at all.  This will all emerge in due  course.  I am sure it will emerge.  I just want an  opportunity to see if there was a second map.  REGISTRAR:  Is interrogatory 59 (c), as well as the map,  being marked or just the map?  COURT:  Are you putting in the interrogatory, Mr. Mackenzie?  MACKENZIE:  Yes, my lord, it does refer to a map in the  singular.  All right.  So the interrogatory and the map are  Exhibit 335.  All right.  Go ahead, Mr. Mackenzie, now that we  have got that all straightened out.  MACKENZIE:  Q   Mrs. Wilson Kenni, you have been to Seeley Lake Park,  which is in the centre of that map, Exhibit 335?  THE COURT  MR. GRANT  THE  THE  MR.  THE COURT  MR. 4306  D.Wilson Kenni (For Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Mackenzie  1 A   Yes.  2 Q   And are you familiar with the names of the rivers, I  3 am referring to the river just to the north of Seeley  4 Lake, are you familiar with that name?  It's spelled  5 X-s-a-g-i-i, and then I am having difficulty with  6 that —  7 THE COURT:  Mine clearly shows an S.  8 MR. MACKENZIE:  Do you have S?  Is there anything else, my lord?  9 THE COURT  10 MR. GRANT  11 THE COURT  12 MR. GRANT  13 THE COURT  Just some crooked lines.  And a T, my lord.  Is there a T?  Yes, there is a T there.  A well-hidden T.  14 A   I don't know these names.  15 MR. MACKENZIE:  16 Q   Can you tell us what language they are in, please?  17 A   Gitksan.  18 MR. GRANT:  My lord, I may say, I am going to propose, it may  19 assist my friend in this, that tomorrow given that  20 there are Gitksan and Wet'suwet'en words given that  21 Miss Stevens, who is the Gitksan word person, the  22 parallel of Mr. Mitchell, may be available, if  23 necessary.  2 4 THE COURT:  Thank you.  25 MR. MACKENZIE:  26 Q   Now I am referring to the map at tab 7, if we could  27 just leave Exhibit 335 out.  28 THE COURT:  What do you say this map is, Mr. Mackenzie?  29 MR. MACKENZIE:  My lord, I am instructed that this is the map  30 that Canada received with its interrogatory, its  31 answer to interrogatory 59 (c) and just because I got  32 a copy or at least I got the original of the map and  33 interrogatory from Canada I made a copy of those and  34 put it at tab 7.  The wording of 59 (c) at page 18,  35 following tab 7 is the same as that at tab 6.  The  36 only difference is the map which came to Canada.  And  37 the —  38 MR. GRANT:  I can only advise the court that I must check this,  39 my lord.  But clearly there was an error because it  40 was, the interrogatory was of the province, there was  41 only one set of interrogatories and the intent was  42 that the map would be the same.  I am not sure which  43 of these was the correct one to be delivered.  44 MR. MACKENZIE:  I wonder if my friends would allow me to take a  45 look at their map.  I just happen to have -- I had a  46 reduced version but this map, it came to Canada, has  47 got Spookw handwritten on the lower right hand corner, 4309  D.Wilson Kenni (For Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Mackenzie  1 my lord, and there appear to be some handwritten  2 comments in the centre lower portion of the map, and  3 they appear to refer to changes in geographical  4 locations on the map.  And other differences between  5 the map which Canada received, my lord, you will see  6 if you look at the British Columbia map, Seeley Lake  7 Park, you will see handwritten notations on the  8 British Columbia map, on just, on the eastern shore of  9 Seeley Lake, and on the Canada map, of course, you  10 have actual printed, the printed words and of course  11 on the Canada map you also have the district lot  12 numbers shown which are not shown on the British  13 Columbia map.  14 THE COURT:  But the boundaries are the same, are they not?  15 MR. MACKENZIE:  The boundaries are generally the same but the  16 named have been changed to protect -- the names have  17 been changed --  18 MR. GRANT:  To protect those who are not here to defend  19 themselves.  20 MR. MACKENZIE:  Just for an example, my lord, if you could refer  21 to that river name we were puzzling over northeast of  22 Seeley Lake, you will see there is a different name on  23 Canada's map than on the British Columbia map.  So, my  24 lord, having said that, I would submit the Canada map  25 as the next exhibit.  26 MR. GRANT:  Well, my lord, I would like to consider the position  27 until tomorrow morning, if I could.  2 8 THE COURT:  All right.  29 MR. GRANT:  Because Mr. Robinson gave an interrogatory with a  30 map of this territory.  I am not sure which of the  31 maps it was.  Now the maps were attached and clearly  32 for some reason, one map was attached at or two  33 different maps or versions of the maps were attached.  34 It may not be properly admissible in that context.  35 THE COURT:  In cases of dispute about it, I think we will mark  36 the map that Mr. Mackenzie says was delivered to  37 Canada as 236 for identification.  38 THE REGISTRAR:  336, my lord.  39 THE COURT:  336.  Sorry.  40  41 (EXHIBIT 336 FOR IDENTIFICATION:  MAP FROM TAB 7)  42  43 MR. MACKENZIE:  And I am going to hand this map back to my  44 friends and ask Mrs. Wilson Kenni:  45 Q   Mrs. Wilson Kenni, I presume you had no part in  46 preparing these maps; is that correct?  47 A   No, I didn't take part in that. 4310  D.Wilson Kenni (For Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Mackenzie  1 Q   Are you aware that Marvin George prepared these maps?  2 A   Yes.  3 Q   Now, I just point out a couple of other things, while  4 we still have the British Columbia map in front of us,  5 it's Exhibit 335, and I would ask you to turn to tab  6 13 of the document book, Exhibit 335, the British  7 Columbia map we are looking at, at tab 13 is an  8 enlargement of Exhibit 5, which is Gitksan-  9 Wet'suwet'en territories, and I just note, looking at  10 the Seeley Lake territory shown on Exhibit 5, can you  11 see that there is a little pocket in there claim by  12 Wiigoobl, referring to Exhibit 5, the enlargement at  13 tab 13, can you see that little pocket claimed by  14 Wiigoobl?  15 A   Yes.  16 MR. MACKENZIE:  I would like a spelling for that, please? It's  17 spelled on the map.  18 THE WITNESS:  W-i-i-g-o-o-b-1.  19 MR. MACKENZIE:  20 Q   And you know Wiigoobl is Jessie Sterritt?  21 A   Yes.  22 Q   And are you aware that Jessie Sterritt claims Seeley  23 Lake for the House of Wiigoobl?  24 A   No, I am not aware of that.  25 MR. MACKENZIE:  My lord, that appears in Jessie Sterritt's  26 commission, which is an exhibit in these proceedings,  27 and what I plan to do is give your lordship the  28 exhibit number and then give your lordship the page  2 9 number tomorrow morning.  I just don't have the page  30 number handy with me.  Just as a matter of convenience  31 to bring that to the court's attention.  Jessie  32 Sterritt commission is already marked as an exhibit.  33 THE COURT:  All right.  Do you say that enclave with an arrow  34 leading from the word Wiigoobl is Seeley Lake?  Seeley  35 Lake on Exhibit 235 is almost in the middle of or  36 closer to the middle of the territory.  37 MR. MACKENZIE:  Yes, that's correct.  38 THE COURT:  This one is on the northern boundary.  39 MR. MACKENZIE:  This — the point is, my lord, and I will be  40 able to give a specific reference in the commission  41 evidence, Jessie Sterritt did mention that in her  42 commission and we have that on Exhibit 5, that  43 incursion, what appears to be in Spookw's territory.  44 Moving over towards Seeley Lake on Exhibit 5, if not  45 on Exhibit 5 all the way to enclose Seeley Lake.  46 And I point out also, my lord, and ask the witness  47 to confirm, that on Exhibit 5, the neighbour to the 4311  D.Wilson Kenni (For Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Mackenzie  1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  east of Spookw is Gyetmgaldoo, whereas the neighbour  to the east on Exhibit 335, appears to be Nikateen, to  the northeast and Gwis gyen to the southeast.  MR. GRANT:  Well, with respect, my lord, on Exhibit 5 you can  see there is a little narrow long stretch, and there  is an arrow and Nikateen is referred to there on  Exhibit 5 as the neighbour.  You can see it, Nikateen  is actually across the river but there is a little  arrow there and you can see that more clearly, of  course, on the exhibit proper itself, but Nikateen is  the neighbour.  THE COURT:  All right referred to on Exhibit 5.  MR. MACKENZIE:  I think the documents will speak for themselves,  as far as that goes.  THE COURT:  Where is this little arrow you are talking about,  Mr. Grant?  MR. GRANT:  Well, you see the word Nikateen, there is a straight  line there.  THE COURT:  I do not see the word.  Yes, I do.  MR. GRANT:  A straight line there, and then there is a heavy  dark, this is on Exhibit 5, there is a heavy dark,  approximate rectangular area and that arrow on  Nikateen or that line Nikateen is pointing to that  territory.  MACKENZIE:  I agree with what my friend says.  GRANT:  The word Nikateen is in the territory marked  Luutkudziiwas, but in fact the arrow points over to  that small territory.  There wasn't enough room to put  it in.  MACKENZIE:  I agree with my friend, there is a reference to  Nikateen on Exhibit 5.  COURT:  But not placed in the same location as 236.  MACKENZIE:  335, my lord.  COURT:  Sorry, 335.  MACKENZIE:  And, my lord, I won't go into the other  differences between those documents.  I have done that  on previous occasions and it goes on.  But that point  can be made more expeditiously.  All right.  Your point, Mr. Grant, is that little  Belgium in Exhibit 5 is what was intended to be  indentified.  GRANT:  That little Belgium there?  COURT:  Yes.  GRANT:  If the Luxumbourg is Wiigoobl then the Belgium is  Nikateen, that's right.  A   I am glad to hear we have expanded our territory.  MR.  MR.  MR.  THE  MR.  THE  MR.  THE COURT  MR.  THE  MR.  MR. MACKENZIE:  Jessie Sterritt's commission is marked as an 4312  D.Wilson Kenni (For Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Mackenzie  1 exhibit in these proceedings, my lord, at Exhibit 70 A  2 and 7 0 B from volumes one and two and I will give your  3 lordship the exact page reference, for your lordship's  4 convenience tomorrow morning.  5 THE COURT:  All right.  6 MR. MACKENZIE:  7 Q   Now, we finished look at Steven Robinson's maps --  8 A  Where does this go?  9 Q   Just return those to the binder.  10 Mrs. Wilson Kenni, we have talked about Steven  11 Robinson taking care of the name of Spookw after  12 Johnson Alexander died, are you aware that he paid a  13 substantial sum of money to obtain the name Spookw?  14 A   Pardon me?  15 Q   Are you aware that Steven Robinson paid a substantial  16 sum of money to obtain the name Spookw?  17 A  All chiefs spend a lot of money at one time or  18 another.  19 Q   You weren't present at the feast in which --  20 A   No, I wasn't.  21 Q   Yes.  So you have no personal knowledge of the amount  22 of money that Steven Robinson paid?  23 A   No, I don't.  24 Q   Actual my question was, Steven Robinson would have  25 paid, and your answer is no, you don't?  26 A   No, I don't know that.  27 Q   Now, moving on to a new subject, my lord.  28 Now, Mrs. Wilson Kenni, you have testified that you  29 are the manager of the Hagwilget Band?  30 A   Yes.  31 Q   And you are also now a member of that band, are you  32 not?  33 A   Yes.  34 Q   And can you tell us what your duties are as band  35 manager, please?  36 A   To administer the funds for the different programmes  37 that are taken over by the band from the Department of  38 Indian Affairs, from the district.  39 Q   And you mentioned some of those programmes, could you  40 tell us what those are, please?  41 A   Some of them are in the capital and education, social  42 development.  43 Q   Did you say professional development?  44 A   Social development.  45 Q   I beg your pardon.  46 And in carrying out your duties, do you engage in  47 communications and correspondence with the Department 4313  D.Wilson Kenni (For Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Mackenzie  1  2  A  3  Q  4  5  A  6  Q  7  8  A  9  Q  10  A  11  Q  12  13  14  A  15  Q  16  17  A  18  Q  19  20  A  21  Q  22  MR.  GRANT  23  MR.  macke:  24  A  25  26  Q  27  28  A  29  30  Q  31  32  33  A  34  35  Q  36  37  MR.  GRANT  38  39  40  41  42  THE  COURT  43  44  MR.  GRANT  45  46  THE  COURT  47  of Indian Affairs?  Yes.  And you also, I take it, engage in correspondence with  other Gitksan Indian Bands?  Yes.  And as band manager you engage in correspondence with  the Moricetown Band?  Engage in what?  Engage in correspondence with the Moricetown Band?  I may have, yes.  And, as part of your experience and your day-to-day  duties, you have become aware of the band managers of  the other Gitksan bands?  Become aware of them?  You know the names of the managers of the other  Gitksan Bands?  Yes.  And can you tell us, please, the name of the band  manager for the Gitanmaax band?  Gitanmaax?  Yes.  :  When?  Now?  JZIE:  Yes, please.  Thank you.  Right now, I am not too sure.  They might have someone  as acting band manager there.  Who was the band manager previous to the present  acting band manager, if there is one?  I can't remember his name.  He was there for a short  time.  And can you tell us, please, tell his lordship,  please, who the chief councillor is for the Gitanmaax  Band?  Chief councillor for the Gitanmaax is Neil Sterritt  senior.  Can you tell us, please, who the band manager is for  the Kispiox Band?  :  Well, my lord, I wonder if my friend could explain  the relevance of who the band managers are for the  different bands?  I would object on the basis of  irrelevance.  A what does that have to do with the  case?  :  That's a dangerous objection for you to be making,  Mr. Grant.  I will ask the question if you want me to.  :  It may not be an objection, it may be relevant.  I  just don't understand the relevance of it.  :   If you are not objecting, counsel you aren't  entitled to cross-examine your learned friend. 4314  D.Wilson Kenni (For Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Mackenzie  1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  MR.  THE  MR.  THE  MR.  THE  MR.  THE  GRANT:  I am taking a page out of my learned friend's, Mr.  Macaulay's book.  COURT:  Objections are sometimes framed in that way and if  it's understood.  MACAULAY:  I hope I make myself clear when I rise, that I do  object to the questions.  COURT:  Yes.  Well, are you objecting, Mr. Grant?  MACAULAY:  Am I objecting?  COURT  GRANT  COURT  Mr. Grant are you objecting":  MR. GRANT  THE  MR.  THE  MR.  MR.  No, I am sorry,  Well, my lord --  Because if everything is going to have to be  justified for relevance, this trial will be much  shorter than I think it's otherwise going to be.  The reason I am raising it my lord, this is a new  area.  There is lots of areas that I think at the end  of the day that are marginally relevant that I have  bided my tongue on, we now we are moving into a new  area.  I am not saying anything about the chief  councillors or anything like that, but when my friend  asks who the managers are of all the bands, I am not  sure where we are going with that.  I think you are objecting, Mr. Grant, and I will ask  your friend to indicate the basis for the relevancy on  this matter, or this line of questioning.  MACKENZIE:  I understand my friend's objection relates  strictly to the question about the band managers?  COURT:  Yes, I think so.  MACKENZIE:  Well, my lord, if I may, I will put that  question aside and continue asking about the chief  councillors and come back to the band managers, if I  may, and that, in answer to that objection.  COURT:  All right.  GRANT:  I am not —  MACKENZIE:  Q   And can you tell us, please, who the chief councillor  is from for the Kispiox Band?  The chief councillor there is George Muldoe.  THE COURT  MR.  THE  THE  MR.  A  COURT:  A  COURT:  I am sorry"!  George Muldoe.  Thank you.  MACKENZIE:  Q   And for the Glen Vowell Band?  A   Samson.  Q   Mr. Samson?  A   I know him so well.  His first name just --  Q   I think we should know him too.  MR. GRANT:  I have no objection to my friend leading. 4315  D.Wilson Kenni (For Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Mackenzie  1 MR. MACKENZIE:  But I can't suggest that to you right now.  We  2 will leave it as it is and go on to the Kitwangak  3 Band.  4 A   Kitwangak Band is Glen Williams.  5 Q   And the Kitsegukla Band?  6 A   Russell -- this is crazy, I know these people so well  7 and I can't remember his first name.  Ken Russell.  8 Q   And the Moricetown Band used to be Dan Michell we know  9 but who is the current --  10 A   Stanley Nikol.  11 Q   Now, speaking, you spoke about your duties involving  12 the capital fund, can you tell us what, just in  13 summary, what that means, what do you do in respect to  14 that subject?  15 A  Well, capital projects is things like housing and  16 sewer projects, water projects.  Any buildings.  17 Q   And your evidence, I take it, is that the band council  18 on some matters acts on the instructions of the  19 hereditary chiefs; is that right?  20 A   Yes.  21 Q   And that's on matters affecting everyone on the  22 reserve?  23 A   Yes.  24 Q   Such as some educational questions?  25 A   Yes.  26 Q   Now, you have said that are the Hagwilget Band has two  27 reserves, and what is the present use of the reserve  28 which is to the south on the Bulkley River?  29 A   You mean the Bulkley Reserve?  30 Q   Yes, the Bulkley Reserve.  31 A   Right now just a sawmill sitting on it.  There is no  32 road access to it.  You are able to put a makeshift  33 road in there to put the sawmill in there and then the  34 weather just wrecked the road.  35 Q   That is a portable sawmill?  36 A   Yes.  37 Q   And was that -- can you say from your experience  38 whether that was the sawmill with respect to which an  39 application was made to the Ministry of Forests?  40 A   Yes.  41 Q   And there was an application for a Small Business  42 Enterprise licence?  43 A   Yes.  44 Q   Now, you mentioned this also, hard times you had in  45 the old days, but at the present time on the Hagwilget  46 Reserve you now have electricity and new homes; is  47 that correct? 4316  D.Wilson Kenni (For Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Mackenzie  1  A  2  Q  3  4  A  5  Q  6  7  8  9  A  10  Q  11  12  13  A  14  15  16  17  Q  18  19  A  20  Q  21  22  A  23  Q  24  THE COURT  25  26  27  A  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  THE COURT  42  A  43  MR. macke:  44  Q  45  46  47  A  That's right.  And there is also of the Roman Catholic church on that  reserve, isn't there?  Yes.  And is it -- is it fair to say that following the  passage of Bill C-31 that the population of the  reserve has increased with the return of people  regaining Indian status?  Yes.  Can you tell us, tell his lordship what the increase  in population has been following Bill C-31 to the  present day?  Well, from what I understand from the district, that  our village had the largest increase, something like  60 percent of the -- all the villages in that  district.  And are you building new homes for the people  returning?  Not as many as there are applications for.  Has the construction of those new homes that are being  built part of the capital project programme?  Yes, it is.  Now, just moving on to another subject in that area --  :  I take it that what you are saying, you have more  applications than you have funds available for the  building of new homes, do you?  That's right.  You see, we understood at one of the  meetings that we had with people that came in from the  regional office, there was a meeting that the  Hagwilget Band office and at that time they indicated  to us that there was special funds set aside in Ottawa  for Bill C-31 programme, and at that time I remember  asking our district manager, district Department of  Indian Affairs district manager was at that meeting  and I remember asking him to make it clear to me if it  was separate funding than what was already in place  for capital projects for the villages.  And he said,  yes, that there was special funds set aside in Ottawa  for housing and education for C-31.  And as it turns  out, C-31 housing funds ran very short.  :  Thank you.  As well as education.  JZIE:  Can you confirm that for these people returning to the  reserve, that there is no income tax payable for  income earned on the reserve?  For income earned on the reserve, yes. 4317  D.Wilson Kenni (For Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Mackenzie  1 Q   Can you confirm that there is no sales tax payable for  2 sales transactions on the reserve?  3 A   Sales on the reserve, yes?  What was your question  4 again?  5 Q   Can you confirm that there is no provincial sales tax  6 payable for sales transactions on the reserve?  7 A   On the reserve, that's right.  8 Q   Now does the band council sponsor sporting and  9 cultural activities?  I will give you an example, is  10 there a hockey team from the band?  11 A   There is a team that consists of the little boys that  12 also have boys from other villages and there is the  13 ladies Softball team, and the men's ball team.  And  14 there is basketball.  15 Q   Basketball.  And are those all, are those leagues,  16 reserve leagues with the other bands?  Are they all  17 Indian leagues, for example?  18 A   I don't -- I have never heard it referred to as Indian  19 league.  I just know that they play and I see quite a  20 few white people playing with them.  21 Q   Now, speaking about activities on the reserve, is --  22 in your files as band manager, do you have, do you  23 keep files of the band council resolutions?  24 A   Yes.  25 Q   Are there band council resolutions relating to  26 trapline administration?  27 A   I don't remember seeing one.  28 Q   Are there band council resolutions relating to fishing  29 by-laws?  30 MR. GRANT:  You mean the by-law?  31 MR. MACKENZIE:  The fishing by-law?  32 MR. GRANT:  I want to clarify if there is something different  33 than the by-law, or if he is asking if there is band  34 council resolutions which are the bylaws?  35 MR. MACKENZIE:    Well, my friend knows more about that subject  36 than I.  37 Q   Are there band council resolutions which constitute  38 fishing bylaws on the Hagwilget Reserve?  39 A   There was one that they were working on.  40 THE COURT:  Was it ever passed?  41 A   No.  42 THE COURT:  Should we adjourn, Mr. Mackenzie?  43 MR. MACKENZIE:  Thank you, my lord.  44 THE COURT:  We will continue this subject in the morning.  Thank  4 5 you.  46  47 4316  D.Wilson Kenni (For Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Mackenzie  1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  (Proceedings adjourned until 10 o'clock a. m., Wednesday,  March 9, 1988)  I hereby certify the foregoing to be  a true and accurate transcript of the  proceedings herein to the best of my  skill and ability.  Wilf Roy  Official Reporter


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