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Delgamuukw Trial Transcripts

[Proceedings of the Supreme Court of British Columbia 1988-03-14] British Columbia. Supreme Court Mar 14, 1988

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 1  2  3  4  THE  REGIS  5  6  MR.  GRANT  7  8  THE  COURT  9  MR.  GRANT  10  11  12  13  14  THE  COURT  15  MR.  GRANT  16  THE  COURT  17  MR.  GRANT  18  19  20  THE  COURT  21  4513  VANCOUVER, B.C.  March 14, 1988  rRAR:  Order in court.  Calling Delgamuukw versus Her  Majesty the Queen, at bar, my Lord.  :  Yes.  The next witness, who's in the witness box, is  Chief Tenimgyet, T-e-n-i-m-g-y-e-t.  :  T-e-n-i —  :  M-g-y-e-t, Art Mathews Jr., and also, my Lord, Mr.  Mathews will give the bulk of his evidence in English  but requested the assistance of an interpreter for  some of the phrases or things, and Miss Sadie Howard  is available, as has been.  Was Miss Howard sworn before?  I think she was.  Yeah.  She was sworn in Smithers, I believe.  Yes, all right.  And of course, as this is -- the bulk of his  evidence is Gitksan, Miss Fern Stevens has returned to  assist the court and the court reporter.  :  Glad to see Miss Stevens again.  Thank you.  All  right, would you swear the witness, please.  22 THE REGISTRAR:  I caution the interpreter you are still under  23 oath.  24  25 ARTHUR IRA MATHEWS, a witness called  26 on behalf of the Plaintiffs having  27 been duly sworn testifies as follows:  28  29 THE REGISTRAR:  Would you state your name for the record,  30 please, and spell your last name?  31 A   Full name is Arthur Ira Mathews, M-a-t-h-e-w-s.  32 THE REGISTRAR:  Thank you.  33 THE COURT:  One T?  34 A   Please.  35 THE COURT:  Thank you.  Sit down, please, if you wish.  3 6 MR. GRANT:  37 Q   My Lord, before commencing the examination of Mr.  38 Mathews I just would like to set the framework in  39 light of some of the -- in light of the stage of the  40 trial at which we are at for the court and so my  41 learned friends will appreciate where we are at at  42 this phase of the trial.  Last week we completed the  43 evidence about Wet'suwet'en ownership and jurisdiction  44 to be given by the witnesses themselves.  Beginning  45 today with this witness, Tenimgyet, the remainder of  46 the Indian people's evidence will be primarily  47 concerned with Gitksan ownership and jurisdiction. 4514  1 Now, if I just may refer for a moment that the  2 first three witnesses in the trial, Mary McKenzie,  3 Mary Johnson, and Olive Ryan, outlined for the court  4 the basic elements of the Gitksan system.  They  5 described the primary institutions through which the  6 laws are articulated, the feast and the kinship  7 linkages through which rights are obtained and  8 obligations are fulfilled.  In particular, you may  9 recall the Wilp or house; Pdekt, the clan; and the  10 wilnadahl, closely related houses within the clan; and  11 the wilksiwitxw, the father's side.  They also  12 described that their adaawk were histories of  13 particular wilnadahl that also record Gitksan law and  14 territory ownership, and the crests displayed on poles  15 and regalia encapsulate significant historical events.  16 These three witness also described how these basic and  17 social and political elements have been in their own  18 houses and their own lives.  The last witness, Miss  19 Wilson-Kenni, described to the court the role of  20 specialists within Gitksan and Wet'suwet'en houses,  21 and using that you may have -- the first three  22 witness, all of them elders, can be thought of as  23 historians within an oral culture.  24 Now, this witness, my Lord, Art Mathews, is one of  25 the younger plaintiffs in the court action.  His  26 evidence will describe how previously -- how the laws  27 and institutions function today in his house and  28 related kinship groups.  He's the head chief of his  29 house and of the Lax Gibuu clan of Gitwangak, and his  30 evidence, my Lord, will reflect the variation in the  31 institutions and customs seen in the westernmost  32 Gitksan villages.  These are the villages of Gitwangax  33 and Kitsegukla and the related village of Kitwancool.  34 In his evidence and that of some of the witnesses  35 following him, the activities of his house and  36 relatives will exemplify how Gitksan ownership and  37 jurisdiction is exercised.  38 The focus of Mr. Mathews' explanation of his  39 house's authority system will be his two territories  40 and his fishing sites on the lower Skeena River.  He  41 will show how the adaawk of his wilnadahl establish  42 and demonstrate his house's long-term ownership of the  43 territories and fishing sites and how certain  44 historical events on the territory came to be recorded  45 by crests and songs.  He will describe how the adaawk  46 teach house members the laws about their relationship  47 to their territory and the animals on it.  The 4515  1 application of those laws to present day management of  2 the territories' resources will be described as well  3 as the management changes made by the house during the  4 witness' own lifetime.  Art Mathews will relate how  5 actions by the Federal and Provincial defendants have  6 changed the management options available to his house  7 and the actions he and other house members have taken  8 in response to those changes.  In other words, there  9 will be some detail about the relationship of this  10 witness and his house to his territory.  11 And all of this witness' evidence will be related  12 to the jurisdiction exercised at the feast and how his  13 network of kinship-based responsibilities are  14 discharged.  However, evidence of these broad  15 relationships can only be found by examining detailed  16 relationships between oral history, territory  17 placenames and boundaries, resource law and practice,  18 and feast procedures.  19 Now, after his evidence, my Lord, the Plaintiffs  20 will be introducing far less detailed evidence of  21 other houses from the western Gitksan villages of  22 Kitsegukla and Gitwangax.  A later set of Gitksan  23 witnesses will demonstrate the variation found amongst  24 the Gitksan houses with territories in the northern  25 part of the territory.  So in some sense, my Lord,  26 this witness' evidence in some ways will be a paradigm  27 of how the Gitksan houses, and in particular the  28 western Gitksan houses relate to their territory and  29 the historical ties to the territory.  30 Your name is Art Mathews?  31 A   Yes.  32 Q   And you were born on May 27th, 1940?  33 A   Yes.  34 Q   And you hold the Chief's name Tenimgyet today?  35 A   Yes.  36 Q   And you're a member of the wolf clan?  37 A   Yes.  38 Q   Can you tell the court what the name Tenimgyet means?  39 A   Tenimgyet in our language, the first part, "Tenim",  40 means a half bear/half human.  It also means that  41 Tenimgyet, to break if down more, it's a bear without  42 a den that walks around all winter, it doesn't  43 hibernate.  We also use the name Tenimgyet as a nax  44 nok performed before a feast is held.  45 Q   When did you receive the name Tenimgyet?  46 A  When my grandfather died, my ni ye'e, we call it in  47 our language, grandfather, Geoffrey Morgan, held the 4516  1 name.  2 THE COURT:  Geoffrey Morgan?  3 A  Wallace Morgan.  4 THE COURT:  Wallace Morgan.  5 A   Yeah.  He died, and he held the name Axtii hiikw, on  6 December 29th 1987, I think it was.  7 Q   That was last year.  1978?  8 A  Well.  I got that crossed around.  Yeah, '78, yeah.  9 Q   Thank you.  That's when Wallace Morgan died?  10 A   Yes.  11 Q   And he had held the name Axtii hiikw?  12 A  Axtii hiikw.  13 THE COURT:  What was that name?  14 A  Axtii hiikw.  15 THE COURT:  Yes.  16 MR. GRANT:  Can you give a reference on the Gitksan, please.  17 THE TRANSLATOR:  477.  18 THE COURT:  477?  19 MR. GRANT:  There is a list -- I believe a copy of a list is now  20 just being photocopied and will be over imminently for  21 the court --  22 THE COURT:  All right, thank you.  23 MR. GRANT:  And my friends.  That's a list of Gitksan names, I  24 believe; is that right?  25 THE TRANSLATOR:  Um-hum.  26 THE COURT:  And 477 is the name of the grandfather of the  27 witness?  28 THE TRANSLATOR:  Yes.  29 MR. GRANT:  Axtii hiikw.  3 0 THE COURT:  Thank you.  31 MR. GRANT:  32 Q   Now, at the time that your grandfather, Wallace  33 Morgan, died what name did you hold then?  34 A   I held -- my name then was Ax dii mihl.  35 MR. GRANT:  Can you give a spelling for that?  Maybe you should  36 spell it for the court.  37 THE TRANSLATOR:  473, A-x d-i-i m-i-h-1.  38 THE COURT:  M-i-h-1?  39 THE TRANSLATOR:  Yes.  4 0 THE COURT:  Thank you.  41 MR. GRANT:  42 Q   And what does that mean?  43 A  Ax dii mihl?  "Doesn't burn".  4 4       Q   And how old were you when you received the name Ax dii  4 5 mihl?  46 A   Oh, I was well over my 20's.  47 Q   Before you had that name, Ax dii mihl, did you hold 4517  1 another name?  2 A   Yes.  When I was just a small child my other  3 grandfather, Charlie Smith, gave me a name, and the  4 name out of our house, the child's name of Ligii  5 ooyax.  That name, it's very important to us to have a  6 name to enter into a feast hall.  You want the  7 spelling of the name first or --  8 MR. GRANT:  Yes.  9 THE TRANSLATOR:  Ligii ooyax, L-i-g-i-i o-o-y-a-x.  And what does -- can you tell the court what that name  means?  Ligii ooyax, it's a ceremonial name that is performed  with every house, they call si ooyax. That's to give  you the rights to go into the feast hall, but in this  case Ligii ooyax is a name in our house.  So to be clear, the name itself means the ceremony of  getting into the feast?  Yes.  All other houses have si ooyax, the smaller  people that were entitled to go, but in this case  that's our name in our own house, Ligii ooyax.  Did you receive -- and how old were you when --  approximately when you received that name?  I was about between seven or eight, somewhere in that  range.  Okay.  Did you receive a name between that name and Ax  dii mihl?  Yes.  One feast we had, I don't remember the dates,  but my other grandfather, Jack Morgan, Xbiilaxha, give  me a name of Sax gyoo, free parking or fish out of  water.  :  I'm sorry?  Or free parking, or just idling, you know how the fish  just idles, you know sit and no movement.  35 THE TRANSLATOR:  S-a-x g-y-o-o.  3 6 MR. GRANT:  37       Q   And that description of the fish idling, that's what  3 8 the name means?  39       A   Yes.  4 0       Q   Do you remember approximately how old you were when  41 you received that name?  42 A   No.  I just -- I didn't hold a name long, because my  43 senior chief of the house, Axtii hiikw, didn't agree  44 with the name because he said it didn't match the  45 progression they had planned for me, so I didn't use  4 6 the name very long.  47       Q   Before you received your first name were you allowed  10 MR.  GRANT  11  Q  12  13  A  14  15  16  17  Q  18  19  A  20  21  22  Q  23  24  A  25  26  Q  27  28  A  29  30  31  32 THE  COURT  33  A  34 1  2  A  3  4  5  6  Q  7  8  9  A  10  Q  11  A  12  13  Q  14  15  A  16  Q  17  18  A  19  20  Q  21  A  22  Q  23  A  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  Q  31  32  A  33  Q  34  A  35  Q  36  37  A  38  Q  39  A  4 0 THE  COURT  41 MR.  GRANT  42 THE  COURT  43  A  44  45  46  47  4518  into the feast hall?  No.  That's a strict rule against you cannot enter a  feast hall without being Siligii ooyax.  That is  ceremonial name that entitles you to go into the feast  hall.  Okay.  Now, when this court case started in 1984 the  named plaintiff from your house was Axtii hiikw; is  that right?  That's right.  And who held the name at that time, Axtii hiikw?  My other grandfather, Geoffrey Morgan, was the  plaintiff at the time.  Okay.  And then it was changed between then and now to  Tenimgyet?  That's right.  Can you explain to the court why you're now the named  plaintiff for this house?  In 1981, after the death of Wallace Morgan, he died  remember in -- I remember in December of --  '78?  '78.  Yes?  It was decided -- my grandfather, Geoffrey, was the  sole survivor, to give the name Axtii hiikw a rest for  a full year, and he was going to make a decision  because he was the sole survivor at the time, so he  said "Okay, we just perform the funeral duties, pay  everybody" but nobody was going to get the name.  We  wanted to leave it at rest.  That was the name Axtii hiikw.  And he still held the  name Tenimgyet himself?  Yes.  Yes.  And that was in 1978 or '79 when Wallace died?  Yes.  And Wallace's feast was January 3rd of 1979; is that  right?  That's right, yes.  The funeral feast.  Okay, go on?  In 1981, when we had a fence raising --  I'm sorry?  Fence raising.  Fence raising?  He came to my house at first and he asked me -- he  said "Are you ready -- are you ready to take on a big  responsibility".  I said "Oh, yeah, I'm ready for  anything".  He said "Not that way, this is serious,  this is tremendous burden on you once I make this 1  2  3  4  Q  5  A  6  THE  COURT  7  MR.  GRANT  8  THE  COURT  9  MR.  GRANT  10  11  THE  COURT  12  MR.  GRANT  13  THE  COURT  14  MR.  GRANT  15  Q  16  A  17  18  Q  19  A  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  MR.  GRANT  27  THE  TRANS  28  MR.  GRANT  29  Q  30  A  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  Q  39  A  40  Q  41  A  42  Q  43  44  45  A  46  47  4519  move".  So I said "Yeah, okay".  Then at the feast --  he didn't tell me at the time he was going to give me  the name.  Who was it that came to you?  Geoffrey.  I'm sorry?  Geoffrey was the one who came.  I'm sorry, I thought he died in 1979.  Wallace died -- Wallace died in December of 1978.  His funeral feast was January of 1979.  All right.  So —  And the only survivor was Geoffrey.  I see.  All right, thank you.  And they were brothers; is that right?  Yeah.  There was three brothers:  Jack, Geoffrey, and  Wallace were all brothers.  Yes.  So at that feast after all the other things were  finished, all -- and when he came up to speak he  called me and stood me beside him, and in our language  he said to everybody Gya'aa sim, Hla nit dim  Tenimgyedit.  In other words, "Here is my grandson, he  will now assume and take the name in the person of  Tenimgyet in our house ".  :  Do you have that phrase for the reporter?  LATOR:  Yes, um-hum.  Go on?  And at the time I just took the name, and what he said  and all the other chiefs spoke and said "Okay, that's  fine, that's your rights".  I was actually right in  line at that name.  In 1983 the stone raising stone,  that's when I assumed the full power and rights of  Tenimgyet where a nax nok was performed, my mother  sang, and that's when other chiefs really -- I was  accepted into the role of Simoogit.  And that was the stone raising for Wallace Morgan?  Wallace Morgan.  And was Geoffrey still alive at that time?  Yes.  He was there.  Well, when you completed that, your name at the stone  raising in 1983 what happened -- what name did  Geoffrey then hold and what?  Yes.  He then said that he was going to assume and  take the name of Axtii hiikw, and I -- at that speech  he says "I am going to be Axtii hiikw, I will hold 1  2  3  4  5  Q  6  A  7  Q  8  A  9  Q  10  A  11  Q  12  13  14  A  15  Q  16  17  18  A  19  20  21  22  Q  23  24  25  A  26  Q  27  A  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  MR.  GRANT  36  THE  COURT  37  38  MR.  GRANT  39  THE  COURT  40  MR.  GRANT  41  Q  42  A  43  THE  TRANS  44  THE  COURT  45  THE  TRANS  46  THE  COURT  47  4520  the" -- you must remember in feast houses we have  seats, and he says "I will remain on the seat until I  die, but Tenimgyet is going to control the territory  and have jurisdiction over it".  And Geoffrey has since died?  Yes.  He died in 1985?  That's right.  So in 1984 Geoffrey was alive?  Yes.  And at the time the court case started in October of  1984 he was still alive, and you held the name  Tenimgyet?  That's right.  So given what he said in 1983 why was he -- why did  you and he decide that he would be the named plaintiff  then?  Well, he was our elder, and we have lots of respect  for elders.  Regardless of what name I had, he was in  fact our head man, our simoogit of the house because  of his wisdom and understanding.  Between the time you took the name Tenimgyet and his  death did you still consult with him about decisions  on the territory?  Yes.  Even our smokehouse that we built.  Yes?  After what he said and he said in front of the people,  I had lots of respect for him.  I had to go to his  house and officially ask him for permission to build  our smokehouse where it is today, and he said "Fine,  it's all yours", but only one specified instruction  was to leave one fishing site open for him at all  times that he was going to use, and the fishing site's  name is Miinhl am k'ooxst.  Do you have that?  What is this, Mr. Grant, the name of the fishing  site?  The name of the fishing site, my Lord.  Thank you.  This is the fishing site that was left for him?  Yes.  Wanted that open all the time for himself.  LATOR:  Miinhl am k'ooxst, M-i-i-n —  :  I'm sorry?  LATOR:  M-i-i-n-h-1 a-m k-'-o-o-x-s-t  :  Thank you.  Could I interrupt, Mr. Grant, and ask  you or ask the witness, what is the name of the -- of 14 MR.  GRANT  15  Q  16  A  17  18  19  20  21  22 MR.  GRANT  4521  1 the house of the witness; is it Tenimgyet?  2 MR. GRANT:  3 Q   I was going to come to that, but may as well do it at  4 this point, yes.  What is the name of your house?  5 A   The name of our house as of today is ' Yax 'yagaa  6 huwaalp, or in Gitksan it's Yagaa ni yooksxw wilp.  In  7 Ts'imxsan it's 'Yax 'yagaa huwaalp.  8 THE TRANSLATOR:  It's number 86.  9 MR. GRANT:  Can you give the spelling to the court?  10 THE TRANSLATOR:  '-Y-a-x '-Y-a-g-a-a h-u-w-a-a-1-p.  11 THE COURT:  A-a-l-t?  12 THE TRANSLATOR:  P.  13 THE COURT:  L-p, thank you.  And what does that name mean?  It means "Over the cliff", "Hanging over the cliff".  Like if I had a house here, that's what it means, hang  over the edge, and the name stems from one of the  adaawks coming off of the -- that's where the name  arrived from.  That's the location of their house on  the   -- do you want the spelling?  :  Just give her a moment.  23 THE TRANSLATOR:  255.  24 THE COURT:  255?  25 THE TRANSLATOR:  Yes.  26 THE COURT:  This is the same name in a different dialect or  27 language?  2 8 MR. GRANT:  29 Q   Sorry, no.  The adaawk, it's from the -- where is the  30 house located on the down --?  31 A   The T'a'ootsip is or the building that they built in  32 Gitwangax.  33 Q   And it was a fortress there?  34 A  A fortress, yeah, that was built.  35 THE COURT:  I'm sorry, I thought the witness said adaawk.  What  36 is the words?  37 A   T'a'ootsip.  38 MR. GRANT:  Can you give the spelling for his Lordship, please?  39 THE TRANSLATOR:  T'-a'-o-o-t-s-i-p.  40 THE COURT:  G-s-i-p?  41 THE TRANSLATOR:  T.  42 THE COURT:  I really have a very serious difficulty hearing  43 someone when they're facing away from me.  Don't you  44 worry about it, I had the same trouble with Mr.  45 Mitchell.  46 MR. GRANT:  Miss Stevens is just getting back into form, my  47 Lord, and the list will be over imminently, which will 4522  1  2  THE  COURT  3  MR.  GRANT  4  Q  5  A  6  7  8  9  10  11  12  Q  13  A  14  15  THE  COURT  16  17  18  A  19  THE  COURT  20  A  21  THE  COURT  22  MR.  GRANT  23  Q  24  A  25  Q  26  27  A  28  Q  29  A  30  Q  31  32  A  33  Q  34  35  36  A  37  38  39  THE  TRANS  40  THE  COURT  41  A  42  43  44  45  46  Q  47  assist both you and my friends.  :  Yep.  And you were explaining what T'a'ootsip was?  Yeah.  It's a fortress, a battle hill they call it,  and it's designed for warfare, and that's where -- and  that's where our house was, one of them that was on  the -- that T'a'ootsip, that hill, and the location,  that's why the name of it, because while -- because  the way it was -- part of it was on the ground and  part of it was on the high hill supporting --  You're indicating the arm that hung over?  Yes.  And that was the hill, it was like that,  standing on piles.  :  Is this the hill that's across the river on the  Gitwingax side of the river where there's a stairway  up to the top of the hill?  That's right.  :  That's the hill we're talking about?  That's the hill we're talking about.  :  Thanks.  And that's where the T'a'ootsip was?  The name came from, yeah.  You described what happened in 1983 and your other  grandfather, Geoffrey Morgan, died?  Um-hum.  And that was in 1985?  That's right.  Now, is there anyone holding the name Axtii hiikw  today?  Yes.  My uncle, Henry Tait holds the name Axtii hiikw.  And can you explain what's happened in terms of how  you each -- what you each are responsible for in the  house?  Yes.  It was decided at a meeting when Geoffrey died,  we had a house meeting, not only just our house, my  father was there, Ts'iiwa'.  LATOR:  T-s-'-i-i-w-a-'.  :  That's your father?  That's right.  And another person we called to witness  what we were doing and what we were saying.  In our  law we have to have witnesses even at our house  meeting, so two of them were invited, my dad and  George Turner, which is Yal.  And both your father and George Turner are from  different houses? 1  A  2  Q  3  A  4  5  6  THE  TRANS  7  THE  COURT  8  MR.  GRANT  9  Q  10  A  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  Q  22  A  23  Q  24  25  26  A  27  28  Q  29  30  A  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  MR.  GRANT  40  THE  TRANS  41  42  THE  COURT  43  THE  TRANS  44  THE  COURT  45  THE  TRANS  46  THE  COURT  47  MR.  GRANT  4523  That's right.  And from different clans?  That's right.  At that meeting we decided -- my mother  spoke, she was the elder of that.  Her name is Bax  heldaa saat.  LATOR:  472 on the list.  :  472?  Go ahead, Mr. Mathews.  Yes, your mother was there?  Yes.  And she spoke, and it was decided my uncle and  Henry Tait would take the name Axtii hiikw, and it was  then also decided that we would keep the tradition  that he will occupy the seat of Axtii hiikw and I will  be right next to him as the same role we had me and  Geoffrey when he was still alive, and that was decided  then that that role will apply and we will keep it in  that role, that his main functions and his duties were  my advisor and to look after the running of the feast  and some of the responsibilities that -- to make sure  of that responsibility.  And is that what occurs right up to today?  It is right today, yes.  And was -- were there any discussions as to who would  be -- which of the two of you would be the chief in  representing your house in this court case?  Yes.  That I would be here as a plaintiff today.  That's why you see the heading "Tenimgyet".  Now, when did you start to be trained to be the head  chief of your house?  I would say I would be trained from a young age; these  adaawks being told to me in short form, in medium  form.  Like when I say that, I mean when you're just a  young kid they just give you the general outline of an  adaawk, and as you get older more detailed as you  get -- progressed until the full form of the adaawk is  fulfilled and its full length and the yuuhlxamtxw, gan  didils, everything that's in it, you have to  understand.  :  Can you give those words, Miss Stephens?  LATOR:  Yuuhlxamtxw, Y-u-u-h-1-x-a-m-t-x-w, and gan  didils, g-a-n d-i-d-i-1-s.  :  I'm sorry, G-a-m?.  LATOR:  G-a-n.  :  Yes.  LATOR:  D-i-d-i-1-s.  :  Thank you.  And what does that mean, please? THE  THE  THE  THE  THE  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17 MR.  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31 THE  32 MR.  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  4524  Q Yes. What do those two words mean?  A   Yuuhlxamtxw means they give you advice.  INTERPRETER:  They give you advice and —  COURT:  You have to speak up.  INTERPRETER:  All the facts of life they give you.  COURT:  I don't think any of us can hear what you're saying,  please.  Mr. Grant --  INTERPRETER:  Yuuhlxamtxw is when they give you advice on  when -- how to live your life and show respect to  people.  And gan didils is --  A   Okay, I'll say.  Yuuhlxamtxw is wisdom, to give me  wisdom, the understanding, the various spirituality of  our land.  Gan didils is the way of life, how to  react, how not to react.  In other words, it's a  doctrine of one's adaawk, it's a realism, it's  philosophy, and it's epics, both life and death.  GRANT:  And later in your evidence we will come back to the  adaawk, and I will ask you to explain that with  reference to a specific adaawk of your house.  Just to  have further background maybe it's appropriate now, my  Lord, I have a document book.  Now, I'm going to refer  you, just for the court's assistance, to the -- to tab  1 of the document book.  This is -- the cover isn't  labelled but it would be the document book of the  Plaintiffs with respect to this witness.  If I can  refer you to tab 1, and just so that it's easier for  the court, and to page 3.  Now, there's a genealogy in  there.  My Lord, we've taken heed of your comments and  have put it in another kind of envelope so that you  can mark it.  Thank you.  COURT  GRANT  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  More easily.  And I just refer you to page 3 of the  genealogy, and that is on page 3 on the left-hand  side, third person up, Art Mathews Jr., Tenimgyet.  That is yourself, is that right?  That's right.  And your wife is Myrtle Mathews?  That's right.  Okay.  Now, you don't have to refer to this, because  presumably you know this, but you have a number of  sisters and brothers?  That's right.  And they are Archie, Mary, then Audrey, Ivan, Mabel,  Charlie and Irene?  Yes.  Is that right?  Now, the only ones who are still alive 1  2  A  3  Q  4  5  A  6  Q  7  A  8  Q  9  A  10  11  THE  COURT  12  13  MR.  GRANT  14  15  16  THE  COURT  17  18  A  19  THE  COURT  20  MR.  GRANT  21  22  THE  COURT  23  MR.  GRANT  24  Q  25  A  26  MR.  GRANT  27  28  THE  COURT  29  THE  TRANS  30  MR.  GRANT  31  THE  COURT  32  MR.  GRANT  33  THE  COURT  34  MR.  GRANT  35  Q  36  37  A  38  39  Q  40  A  41  MR.  GRANT  42  43  MR.  PLANT  44  A  45  46  MR.  GRANT  47  Q  4525  are Charles, Mary and Irene; is that right?  That's right.  And your -- does your brother Charles hold a name  today?  Yes.  He holds the name of Axdii mihl.  That is the name you previously held?  That I had previously held, yes.  When did he get that name?  At the time I received Tenimgyet, we passed --  everybody had moved up a step.  :  I'm sorry, I haven't found Irene.  Did you say  Irene?  :  If you go over to page 4 along that same line you  can see Mabel Matthews, Audrey Matthews, Ivan Matthews  and Irene Matthews at the end.  This would be the --  :  Yes, I'm sorry, yes.  I have it.  I was looking at  the wrong line, but I have Irene as being deceased?  Yes.  :  She is deceased.  :  Yes.  The witness' evidence is the only ones alive  are Charles, Mary and Ivan.  :  Oh, all right.  Thank you.  And does Mary hold a name today, your sister?  Yes.  She holds the name of Biis hoon.  :  Okay.  Can you give a number or a spelling for that,  Miss Stephens?  :  It's on the genealogy, the name.  LATOR:  4 84.  Fine.  Sorry, I missed it.  All right.  And you can refer to that as 484, my Lord.  484.  And your sister -- or I'm sorry, your brother, Ivan,  does he hold a name in your house today?  Yes.  He's one of the simoogit or holds the third seat  in our house as Bii laxha.  And who holds the second seat?  Further down.  :  No.  You said he holds the third seat.  You hold the  first seat, I gather, and the next one is --  :  No.  That's not the witness' evidence --  Me and Henry, as you look at us, Axtii hiikw and  Tenimgyet are one.  Yes? 1  A  2  3  4  5  6  7  Q  8  9  10  11  A  12  Q  13  A  14  Q  15  16  17  A  18  Q  19  A  20  Q  21  A  22  Q  23  24  25  26  27  A  28  Q  29  A  30  Q  31  32  A  33  Q  34  A  35  Q  36  37  A  38  Q  39  40  A  41  Q  42  A  43  Q  44  45  A  46  Q  47  4526  The second seat down, I should say, was Bii laxha.  I  keep thinking the two together.  I think the  provincial lawyer, he's right on the ball this  morning.  Thank you for that, that is right.  Me and  Axtii hiikw are one.  Bii laxha comes beside us and  then 'Wii hloots'.  Now, I refer you to tab 3.  Tab 3, if you can just  take a moment -- you can keep out the genealogy.  Now,  this -- so is this the seating, does this show the  seating at the table at which you sit?  That is right.  In the feast hall?  That's right.  So there is -- you consider when you explain it that  yourself and Axtii hiikw or Henry Tait are one, and  next to you, that is on your right, is Ivan?  Yes.  That is your brother, Bii laxha?  Yeah.  And then 'Wii hloots' is the next?  Yes.  Okay.  I will come back to the seating chart later.  Now, if you refer back to the genealogy, you have  under your sister, Mary Matthews, this is page 3 and  it will go onto page 4, my Lord, under your sister --  your sister, Mary, was married to Abel Shanoss?  That's right.  And they have a number of children?  Yes.  Geraldine, Arthur, Abel Jr., Barry, Jamie, Sherri and  Farrah Pilon?  Um-hum.  And those children are members of your house?  That's right.  And Geraldine has a number of children who are members  of your house?  That's right.  Have all of your sister's children received names in  your house?  Yes.  All of them except for two.  Okay.  Which two have not?  Jamie -- one is Jamie and one of Sherri's, Clayton.  Okay.  Geraldine's children, have they received names  in your house?  Yes.  Okay.  Now, under your own name there's the name Mabel  Morgan.  And she is -- was she a member of your house? 1  A  2  Q  3  A  4  Q  5  6  A  7  8  MR.  GRANT  9  THE  COURT  10  MR.  GRANT  11  Q  12  13  14  A  15  Q  16  A  17  Q  18  A  19  Q  20  A  21  Q  22  A  23  Q  24  A  25  26  MR.  GRANT  27  28  THE  TRANS  29  MR.  GRANT  30  31  THE  TRANS  32  33  MR.  GRANT  34  Q  35  A  36  Q  37  A  38  39  Q  40  41  42  A  43  Q  44  A  45  Q  46  A  47  Q  4527  No.  We adopted them in.  Okay.  So is she a member of your house today?  Yes.  Now that we have adopted them in.  Okay.  And under her name there is Colleen, Gail,  Rhonda and Wallace?  Them are the only ones that are adopted thus far.  There are others but they will be adopted.  Okay.  Which is the one who has been adopted?  Mabel and Art Jr.  And then the four children I've  referred to:  Colleen, Gail, Rhonda and Wallace; have  those four been adopted?  The ones down here are adopted, yes.  But she has other children?  Yes.  And they're not adopted?  Not yet.  Your wife, Myrtle, is she -- where is she from?  My wife, Myrtle, from Kitkatla.  So is she --  Tsimxsan.  Tsimxsan.  What is the house she is from in Kitkatla?  The house she is from in Kitkatla is Gisbedwada.  She  is from the House of Gisbedwada and is K'aim twa.  :  Can you give the spellings to the court, please,  Miss Stevens.  LATOR:  Where do I start; Kitkatla, K-i-t-k-a-t-1-a.  :  Kitkatla is okay, the name of the house and the  chief, Gisbedwada.  LATOR:  G-i-s-b-e-d-w-a-d-a, and K'aim twa,  K'-a-i-m-t-w-a.  And what does that chief's name mean?  K'aim twa?  Yes?  "Close by" in Tsimxsan.  If we say in Ts'imxsan it  would be K'aim tun, of course, "nearby".  Now, is the name of your wife's house among the  Ts'imxsan, is that the same as the Ts'imxsan word for  the fireweed clan?  That's right, yes.  They were the fireweed clan, yes.  Okay.  But it's also a name of that specific house?  Yes.  Their crest even reflects it as that.  Has your wife, Myrtle, been adopted?  Not yet.  Do you anticipate that she will be? 1  A  2  Q  3  A  4  Q  5  A  6  THE  COURT  7  A  8  THE  COURT  9  MR.  GRANT  10  THE  COURT  11  MR.  GRANT  12  Q  13  14  A  15  Q  16  17  A  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  Q  28  29  A  30  31  32  33  34  35  MR.  GRANT  36  THE  COURT  37  38  A  39  MR.  GRANT  40  Q  41  42  A  43  Q  44  A  45  46  Q  47  4528  Yes.  In the very near future.  Why?  Because it's a law, a rule, tradition.  Among the Gitksan?  Among the Gitksan, yes.  Will be adopted into your house?  No.  May be adopted into Gwis gyen.  Into a Gitksan house?  Into a Gitksan house.  Thank you.  You said she may be adopted into Gwis gyen, which is  Axtii hiikw's house?  Hopefully.  Okay.  Why do you say it's law or rule or practise  that she be adopted into a Gitksan house?  Put it into words, respect that in the laws of -- as I  have pointed back to, even children had to get names  to get into the feast house, so as these elders it's  so important to adopt them so they don't get  embarrassed standing outside the feast hall and  somebody walking up to them "What's your name, where  are you from, where is your linkage", all that other  stuff, so they adopt them in front of people so the  next feast they know where to put them, and under  whose house and whose chief they belong.  What about your children, are they in a Gitksan house  today?  Not yet.  These court proceedings have held up  everything, everything seemed to be on hold because of  here all the time standing out.  Gitksan is out  working on these, grooming us, telling us, my father,  so everything has been on hold for awhile, so it will  happen.  :  Okay.  :  Well, your children are in a Tx'imxsan house now,  are they?  Yes.  They are in a Tx'imxsan house.  And when your wife is adopted, your children will be  adopted; is that right?  Yes.  Do your children attend any of the feasts now?  They do.  The first part of it they helped serve, but  when the business of the house arises they go home.  Okay.  As I commence to deal with the genealogy maybe  I can just refer you just to some of the other parts 1  2  3  A  4  Q  5  6  A  7  Q  8  9  10  A  11  Q  12  13  14  A  15  Q  16  A  17  Q  18  A  19  Q  20  21  A  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39 THE  COURT  40  41  42  43  44  A  45 THE  COURT  4 6 MR.  GRANT  47 THE  COURT  4529  of the genealogy.  You have reviewed this genealogy;  is that right?  That's right.  And it -- does it set out who the members of your  house are and some of your ancestors?  That's right, yeah.  Now, going over to page 4, the second line from the  top there is Kathleen Robinson and Art Matthews Sr.,  and that's your mother and father; is that right?  That's right.  Now, then there is a dotted line going along the same  level and a reference to Henry Tait, and that is the  person who holds the name Axtii hiikw?  Um-hum.  And Horace Tait and Vina Tait?  That's right.  Are they brothers and sister?  Yes.  And were they adopted by your grandmother, or your  mother?  I hate to use adopted for these people for my house,  because in our system, our linkage system, when we  relate the linkage system, the blood line, that when  they're cousins they call themselves sisters in my  system, but if we tried to run a linkage system that  we tried here, that's why I hate to say this, that  they're adopted in the broad sense they are, but in  our system it's not, because they're sisters in their  own first-cousins way, that's why you see this dotted  line, that my grandfather and Henry's grandmother were  sisters in the back -- if we go back five or six  hundred years you will see these connections take  place, but on this genealogy we tried to link and put  in place that are alive today, and as I go further  into the adaawk you will see three houses try to be  put on this genealogy, which is the House of Bii lax  ha, the House of 'Wii hloots', and the House of  Tenimgyet.  I don't understand that, Mr. Grant.  These three:  Henry, Horace and Vina seem to be brothers and --  brothers and sisters of the mother of the witness.  Would they not be in the same house as the mother of  the witness and --  Yes.  So why is there a dotted line at all?  Well —  Why should there be any difficulty about adoption or 1  2  3 MR.  GRANT  4  Q  5  6  A  7 MR.  GRANT  8  9  10 THE  COURT  11 MR.  GRANT  12  Q  13  14  15  16  17  A  18  Q  19  20  A  21  Q  22  23  A  24  Q  25  26  27  28  A  29  Q  30  31  32  A  33  Q  34  A  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  Q  47  4530  what house they belong with when they belong to the  same house as their sister?  Well, are they the natural -- is Henry the brother,  the natural brother of your mother?  No.  :  My Lord, they're not the natural brothers, and I'm  going to pursue it with the witness and have the  witness explain it further.  :  All right, thank you.  Maybe we can -- I will refer you to this with just  going back and then we'll come back to this for a  moment.  If you refer to page 3, there's a reference  there to Mary Mark and Charlie Mark, and they were the  parents of your mother; is that right?  That's right.  And Martha Derrick and Louie Derrick was your mother's  grandparents?  That's right.  And then it goes back up here to a name  Uksaganuxs(sic)?  Oksa ganuuxws.  And then there is a broken line and a connection over.  Now, can -- is there a reason -- you have explained  that, going back, Henry Tait would be related and that  relationship could be shown some generations back?  That's right.  Is there something that happened in your house that  has caused difficulty in showing those connections  that far back?  Yes.  Can you explain to the court what has happened?  I don't want to be too negative, but this is caused by  the white man.  When they came they brought disease  amongst my people.  You might say that was the first  germ warfare they have had with us, but this is what  happened, that over half of our house was wiped out by  disease.  That is why the birth of Axtii hiikw emerged  through all these people, all these people dying off,  and he was just about the sole survivor with a  high-ranking name, that he was pulled out to look  after the clan, our house.  That's why it's a broken  line here, that this was almost an empty house at the  time.  Does your relationship, does blood relationship with  Henry and his family, does it go back before that 4531  1 disease?  2 A   That's right.  If we link these lines together and  3 Henry's grandmother, my grandmother and Morgan's  4 grandmother, there would be one there that's called an  5 Indian name, Henry's grandmother and my grandmother --  6 my mother's grandmother was -- her name was Noxs  7 laaswaa, the language there, but why we broke the line  8 there was after that disease that killed off over the  9 course --  10 MR. GRANT:  Do you have a spelling for the linkage that he  11 referred to?  12 THE TRANSLATOR:  Noxs laaswaa, N-o-x-s 1-a-a-s-w-a-a.  13 THE COURT:  N-o-x —  14 THE TRANSLATOR:  L-a-a-s-w-a-a. The X is underlined.  15 THE COURT:  Yes, thank you.  16 MR. GRANT:  17 Q   Than that's two words, is it, or one?  18 A   Yes.  19 THE TRANSLATOR:  Two words, right.  20 MR. GRANT:  Now, you referred, over to again on page 3 there is  21 these two indications of -- at the very top of the two  22 circles, two women, and then one of them was the  23 mother or related to the Axtii hiikw who died in 1985.  24 You see at the top of page 3 there on the left side?  25 THE COURT:  1895.  26 MR. GRANT:  I'm sorry, 1895, yes.  I'm referring to this here.  27 And if you turn it back to page 2, that Axtii hiikw  28 was the brother -- yes.  The triangle indicates a  29 male -- the brother of Noxs laaswaa?  30 THE COURT:  Noxs laaswaa is the one?  31 THE TRANSLATOR:  Noxs laaswaa, yep.  32 MR. GRANT:  33 Q   Is that the same name?  It's spelled different, it  34 looks like --  35 A   That's the same name as I referred, yes.  36 Q   Okay.  And that was the mother of Sarah Morgan?  37 A   Yes.  38 Q   And Sarah Morgan was the mother of the three persons  39 you've referred to, Geoffrey, Jack, and Wallace?  40 A   That's right.  I'm sorry, Sarah was what relation to --  She is the mother of Geoffrey, who's on page 1.  Yes.  My Lord, Wallace and Jack.  All right, thank you.  41 THE COURT  42 MR. GRANT  4 3 THE COURT  4 4 MR. GRANT  4 5 THE COURT  4 6 MR. GRANT  47       Q   And there were other brothers:  Jacob, Silas and 1  2  A  3  Q  4  A  5  Q  6  A  7  8  Q  9  10  A  11  Q  12  13  14  A  15  Q  16  A  17  Q  18  A  19  MR.  PLANT  20  21  MR.  GRANT  22  MR.  PLANT  23  MR.  GRANT  24  Q  25  A  26  Q  27  A  28  29  Q  30  31  A  32  Q  33  34  A  35  Q  36  37  A  38  Q  39  A  40  41  MR.  GRANT  42  THE  COURT  43  MR.  GRANT  44  Q  45  A  46  Q  47  A  4532  Eddie; is that right?  Yes.  And a sister Nancy; is that right?  That's too far back for me.  Could very well be.  You don't recall Nancy, but --  No.  The deceased ones I don't know too well, but I  know their in-house group.  You knew yourself the three brothers:  Geoffrey, Jack  and Wallace?  Yes, personally.  I lived and travelled with them.  Okay.  And going back to the first page, there was --  there's a reference to Girtie Brown being adopted by a  Maryanne Jones, Maryanne being Geoffrey's sister?  Um-hum.  Do you know Girtie Brown?  Yes.  And is she a member of your house?  Yes.  Does that mean that the line above Girtie Brown  should be a dotted line?  I'm sorry, did I say adopted?  Yes.  Was she the natural daughter of Maryanne?  Yes.  I'm sorry, it was my mistake.  I thought you were talking about the line going that  way.  Again, Girtie had a daughter, Mary, who has a number  of children?  Yes.  That are referred to there, and they're all in your  house?  Yes.  And there is a dotted line going over to the second  page referring to Elsie Morgan and Tina Holland?  Yes.  And who adopted them?  My grandmother, Girtie Brown, which holds the name  Wihl 'wiixts'aanii, was Girtie Brown's name.  That name is on the genealogy, my Lord.  Yes.  Does that mean Elsie and Tina were adopted by Girtie?  That's right.  And who is Elsie married to?  She's married to one of Wallace's -- my grandfather's 4533  1 boys, Richard Morgan, who is one of the chiefs in  2 Guxsan's house.  Guu ts'its'aawit is his name.  3 Q   Okay.  Do you have the number for Guxsan and the  4 spelling of his name?  5 A   Guxsan and Guu ts'its'aawit are the two people's  6 names.  7 THE TRANSLATOR:  I didn't get the second name.  8 MR. GRANT:  9 Q   What is Richard Morgan's chief's name?  10 A   Guu ts'its'aawit.  11 THE TRANSLATOR:  Okay.  Guxsan is number 16 on the plaintiff's  list and Guu ts'its'aawit is G-u-u  t-s'-i-t-s'-a-a-w-i-t.  And they -- there's reference to Barbara and Lloyd  Morgan, Elsie's children.  Do they have other children  besides those two?  Yes.  There are others.  It's the same situation as  Mabel.  They will be as time permits.  But presently those are the two in your house?  These two are adopted today.  And Tina Holland is married to Guy Morgan?  Yes.  And Tina was adopted into your house?  Yes.  And her husband, Guy, is he a chief?  Yes.  He's one of the chiefs from Kitwancool, chief  Luuxoon.  Okay.  And he holds the name Luuxoon?  That's right.  :  That's referred to on --  32 THE TRANSLATOR:  44 on the plaintiff's list.  33 MR. GRANT:  I would ask that this document, the genealogy, be  34 marked as the next exhibit, my Lord.  35 THE COURT:  Yes.  36 THE REGISTRAR:  The genealogy of —  37 MR. GRANT:  I'm sorry.  The genealogy of Tenimgyet, dated March  38 3rd, 1988, for the record.  39 THE REGISTRAR:  Thank you.  That will be Exhibit number 346, my  40 Lord.  41  42 EXHIBIT 346 - Genealogy of Tenimgyet dated March  43 3, 1988  44  45 THE COURT:  Do you want the tab 2 — I'm sorry, tab 3, the  46 seating at the feast, marked as an exhibit, Mr. Grant.  4 7 MR. GRANT:  12  13  14 MR.  GRANT  15  Q  16  17  18  A  19  20  Q  21  A  22  Q  23  A  24  Q  25  A  26  Q  27  A  28  29  Q  30  A  31 MR.  GRANT THE  1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16 MR.  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39 THE  4 0 THE  41  42 MR.  43  44  45  4 6 THE  THE  4534  Q   Yes.  Possibly before that I will refer you to tab 2.  And do you know who that person is in the photograph  at tab 2?  A   That's my great-grandmother.  Q   What was her name?  A   I refer to her myself as Maggie.  Q   Maggie Derrick?  A  Maggie Derrick.  Her name, her Indian name -- my  grandmother's name is Bax heldaa saat.  Q   And is she the person referred to as married to Louie  Derrick?  A   Yes.  Q   And the mother of Mary Mark, your grandmother, on page  3?  A   Yes.  GRANT:  I would ask that that photograph be marked as the  next exhibit, my Lord.  REGISTRAR:  347, tab 2.  EXHIBIT 347 - Photograph of Maggie Derrick  MR. GRANT:  And tab 3 should be — I would ask that it be marked  as the next exhibit.  That would be Lax Gibuu-Lax  Skiik seating chart.  EXHIBIT 348 - Lax Gibuu-Lax Skiik seating chart  MR.  PLANT:  My Lord, while tab 3 is being marked I must admit I  don't know every document on the plaintiff's document  list, but I haven't seen this one before, and I --  without objecting to it I would merely make the  comment that if my friend is intending to tender  documents of this sort through his witnesses it would  be of considerable assistance to us if he would give  us more than the notice which he gave us in respect of  this one, which is to say the first time I saw it is  when he gave me this book this morning.  I'm not  objecting to marking the document.  COURT:  Thank you.  REGISTRAR:  Tab 3 will be Exhibit 348, my Lord, seating  diagram.  GRANT:  Yes.  This document was just prepared in preparation  for this witness, my Lord, rather than have him write  it out personally.  I wonder, I'm moving into another  area, it may be a convenient time to break, my Lord.  COURT:  All right, thank you.  47  REGISTRAR:  Order in court. 4535  1 (PROCEEDINGS ADJOURNED AT 11:10)  2  3 I hereby certify the foregoing to be  4 a true and accurate transcript of the  5 proceedings herein transcribed to the  6 best of my skill and ability  7  8  9  10    11 Graham D. Parker  12 Official Reporter  13 United Reporting Service Ltd.  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  xh2 A. Mathews (for plaintiff) 4536  1 (PROCEEDINGS RESUMED PURSUANT TO A SHORT ADJOURNMENT)  2 THE REGISTRAR:  Order in court.  3 THE COURT:  Mr. Grant.  4 MR. GRANT:  5 Q   Thank you.  You described this morning that what  6 happened in 1983 -- or I'm sorry, 198 -- well, in this  7 period of time when your -- when your grandfather  8 died, 1981, that -- that you were given authority over  9 the territory, and you also referred to the fact that  10 when there was the disease, Ax tii hiikxw was given  11 authority, was the only survivor in the house.  Is  12 that change of a head chief's name, of who is the head  13 chief of a house, that transition, is that in  14 accordance with the Gitksan laws or is it some kind of  15 exception to the Gitksan law?  16 A   It is in accordance and consistent with our laws.  17 Q   Your house has adaawk?  18 A   Yes.  19 Q   It has crests?  20 A   Yes.  21 Q   It has territory?  22 A   Yes.  23 Q   And you've described it has membership?  24 A  Membership, yes.  25 Q   When the change of who is the chief responsible  26 occurs, does that affect or does that change the  27 adaawk?  28 A   Not a bit.  29 Q   Does it change the crests?  30 A   No.  31 Q   Does it exchange the territories?  32 A   No.  33 Q   Does it change the membership?  34 A   No.  35 Q   I'd like to refer you for a few moment to your -- the  36 mother side of your family.  Your mother, I believe  37 you described, as Kathleen Matthews?  38 A   Yes.  39 Q   And she holds the name Bax heldaa saat?  40 A   That's right.  41 Q   What does that name mean?  42 A   Bax heldaa saat, it's stopping over, stopping over,  43 stopping over.  44 Q   Who held the name before your mother?  45 A  My grandmother, Emma Robinson, and before her it was  46 Maggie, my grandmother, the photo we referred to  47 already. 1  Q  2  3  A  4  Q  5  A  6  Q  7  A  8  Q  9  10  A  11  12  Q  13  A  14  Q  15  16  A  17  Q  18  A  19  20  21  Q  22  A  23  Q  24  25  A  26  27  Q  28  A  29  Q  30  31  A  32  Q  33  A  34  Q  35  36  37  A  38  39  40  41  42  Q  43  44  A  45 THE  COURT  46  47 THE  WITNE  4537  Okay.  And Maggie, I believe, was also — also shown  on the genealogy as Martha Derrick?  That's right.  Like I said before, I know her as --  As Maggie?  -- as Maggie.  Your mother was born in 1918?  Yes.  And did your mother ever go away from the community to  go to school?  Yes.  She was sent away at a very young age to go to  Edmonton Residential School.  Do you know approximately when she returned home?  It was around 1936.  And her mother, your grandmother, Mary, died when your  mother was quite young?  Yes.  And who raised your mother then after that?  After that Maggie for a while and then Maggie died.  Then she was looked after by our other grandmother,  Sarah Morgan.  Okay.  And then Emma.  Sarah Morgan being Steve Morgan's wife and Geoffrey's  mother?  Yes.  And then Emma brought her up right till the  death of Emma.  Do you remember when Sarah died?  No.  I was too young.  Okay.  And do you know which name Sarah held before  she died?  Tenimgyet.  And after she died, who took the name Tenimgyet?  Geoffrey.  Okay.  And who -- before Sarah held the name  Tenimgyet, was it -- do you know the name of who held  it or what happened to the name before that?  No.  That's when the disease was there.  Nobody held  it.  It was like what we did with Ax tii hiikxw's  name.  It was put to rest for a while until the  membership or all of us, the house members, are old  enough to pick the name up.  So Sarah was the first person post the disease  epidemic to hold the name Tenimgyet?  Yes.  :  I'm sorry.  Was the name left to rest after Sarah  died or before?  3S:  Before. 4536  1 MR.  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31 MR.  32 THE  33 MR.  34  35 THE  3 6 MR.  37 THE  3 8 MR.  39  40  41 THE  42  4 3 MR.  44 THE  45  46  4 7 MR.  GRANT  Q  And then after Sarah died, at her death who took the  name?  A   Geoffrey Morgan.  Q   Okay.  And he held the name until you took it in  198 --  A   '81.  Q   '81.  This morning you described a number of people  who were adopted into your house, Mabel Morgan and  some of her children and others, who were referred to  on Exhibit 346, I believe, the genealogy.  Do those  people have any rights to use your territories?  A   Yes.  But -- there's a but in there.  They have to  have direct permission from either me or Henry or my  mother.  Q   From either you, Henry, Ax tii hiikxw --  A   Yeah.  Q   -- or your mother?  A   Yes.  I will go into the detail later of the role of  my mother.  Q   Before proceeding to that, I'd like to ask you a bit  about your father's side.  And is your father's side  known as your wilksiwitxw?  A   Yes.  Q   And your father is Art Mathew Senior?  A   Yes.  Q   He was born February 27th, 1913?  Yes?  A   Yes.  Q   And he's a member of the House of Luuxoon?  A   Yes.  GRANT:  And that's a —  COURT:  Sorry.  House of —  GRANT:  Luuxoon.  Do you have a -- I think that's on the  plaintiff's list.  SPELLER:  Yes, it is.  Number 44.  GRANT  COURT  GRANT  Q  A  COURT  GRANT  COURT  GRANT:  Number 44.  Thank you.  And what clan is Luuxoon?  Frog.  I'm sorry.  The plaintiff's list I have -- oh, yes.  I'm sorry.  No.  44 in this list is Luutkudziiwas.  44 is Luutkudziiwas on that one.  Yes. On the plaintiff's list I have. Perhaps I'm  using the wrong list. Madam registrar, show that to  Mr. Grant, please. 4539  1 Q   In any event, on this list, my lord, the one that you  2 have, it would be 45.  I see it right there if that's  3 of assistance, but we'll endeavour to have all the  4 lists sorted out by noon hour.  5 Where was your father raised?  6 A  My father actually was born on our territory, win  7 ixstaat, at a place called an ax woowax.  8 MR. GRANT:  Do you have those spellings, please?  9 THE SPELLER:  Win ixstaat is w-i-n-space-i-x-s-t-a-a-t and an ax  10 woowax is a-n-space-a-x underlined-space-w-o-o-w-a-x  11 underlined.  12 THE COURT:  Is that one place or two places?  13 THE SPELLER:  Two places.  14 THE WITNESS:  Like, if I related to your word, your lordship, I  would say in the County of Prince Albert and a certain  address.  That's what I'm saying.  :  Yes.  Thank you.  So the territory, the general name of the territory  you're talking about is this name, win ixstaat?  Yes.  And the specific place is an ax woowax?  Yes.  Who raised your father on the territory?  At a very young age her own parents.  Her mother died,  so the sister, Sophia Smith, took up the duties of  raising her, and Charlie Smith.  And was Sophia Smith your father's mother's mother?  Yes.  In other words, his maternal grandmother --  Um-hum.  -- by our terms.  And who was your father's father?  His own natural father?  Yes.  It was Herbert Matthews.  Of which house and which clan?  From the House of Guxsan from Gitsegukla.  And that's Gisk'aast or fireweed clan?  Yes.  And did your father travel on any of the territory of  Tenimgyet?  Yes.  He was born there and raised, and Charlie Smith  held one of our names on that territory, so he went --  actually grew up on the territory, both tsihl gwellii  and Xsi gwin ixstaat.  :  Do you have the spelling for tsihl gwellii?  :  Sorry.  What is this, the clan -- or the house,  15  16  17 THE  COURT  18 MR.  GRANT  19  Q  20  21  A  22  Q  23  A  24  Q  25  A  26  27  28  Q  29  A  30  Q  31  A  32  Q  33  A  34  Q  35  A  36  Q  37  A  38  Q  39  A  40  Q  41  42  A  43  44  45  4 6 MR.  GRANT  47 THE  COURT 4540  rather?  MR. GRANT:  No.  This is the second territory.  In fact, my  lord, if you refer to Tab Number 5, you can see.  an overlay map, which was just produced.  I just  received it this morning.  It was -- you can see  the -- the triangle just above the word "legend",  can see that diagonal block where -- that's Xsi gwin  ixstaat that the witness is referring to.  And then  you can see over to the left that other area called  tsihl gwellii.  And I'll show this to Miss Stevens,  don't believe she's had a chance to look at this.  Just so you can see the reference to tsihl gwellii.  SPELLER:  That's 416 on the —  -- on the word list.  Yes.  Let me just get myself placed here.  Yes, my lord.  One of these lines, X-s-a-m, is that Skeena?  9  10  11  12  13 THE  14 MR.  15 THE  16 THE  17 MR.  THE  1  19 MR.  20  21  22  23  2 4 MR.  25  2 6 THE  27  26  MR.  2 9 THE  3 0 MR.  31 THE  32 MR.  33  34 THE  35 MR.  36  37  38  39 THE  4 0 MR.  41 THE  42 MR.  43 THE  4 4 MR.  45  46  47  It's  You  GRANT:  SPELLER  COURT  GRANT  COURT  GRANT  Q  A  GRANT  COURT  GRANT  COURT  GRANT  COURT  GRANT  COURT  GRANT  COURT  GRANT  COURT  GRANT  COURT  GRANT  Xsam or Skeena.  And if you -- if you look, you see  that name in black, Tsim tsitxs.  Is that how you say  it?  Yes.  Tsim tsitxs.  And if you just look to the left of that, you will  see Cedarvale in red.  This is an incredibly difficult map because I have  so much reflection off the plastic.  To assist you, you can lift it up.  Oh, yes.  You can take it --  I'm going to take it out.  Once again, at least we've used plastic pouches  instead of these other sheets.  Cedarvale.  You can see Cedarvale there.  And going up along  there, of course you can see Highway 16 and you can  see Kitwanga, and down to the bottom you can see  Doreen.  On the river?  Yes.  It's around the centre.  Yes.  I have it.  You have it?  Yes.  This witness will be referring to those locations.  And this is like I believe other maps that were  prepared for Mr. Mitchell.  It's an overlay on a  standard topographical map. 1  MR.  PLANT  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  THE  COURT  11  MR.  PLANT  12  THE  COURT  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  MR.  GRANT  28  29  30  31  THE  COURT  32  MR.  GRANT  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  THE  COURT  40  MR.  GRANT  41  42  43  44  THE  COURT  45  MR.  GRANT  46  47  4541  And I am -- I think I should rise at this point, my  lord.  I haven't seen this map until now.  I don't  have any objection to the lower -- the bottom part of  it, but I do object to any part of the overlay being  tendered in evidence.  I don't have any objection to  it being used from time to time to assist your  lordship, but I have no alternative given the late  disclosure but to object to the use of the overlay as  a whole and in particular the --  Well —  -- plastic part.  I don't think, Mr. Plant, you can stop your friend  from -- nor do I think I should stop your friend from  using it for whatever purpose he thinks appropriate.  You certainly have every opportunity to verify it and  cross-examine on it when you're ready.  If you need  time for that purpose, then you should be given that  sort of time.  I don't think we should stop the  evidence because you haven't seen this before,  regrettable as that may be.  If your friend tenders it  after the witness identifies it, I would mark it, but  it wouldn't be of any conclusive sense.  Even if you  were making no objection, it would still be open to  show that the map is wrong or inaccurate or misleading  or anything else you want to show it to be.  Go ahead,  Mr. Grant.  Yes.  I'm not -- for the reason my friend has said,  I'm not intending to -- I just want to give you some  references.  He referred to two territories.  I'm not  intending to lead the witness on this.  Where do you see --  You can see from the legend the house territory  boundary.  It's the dash and dotted line.  And there's  one territory, Xsi gwin ixstaat.  At that triangle you  can see the name Woodcock and then you can see the  name Wilson Creek, my lord, and there's a dotted line  around there, which refers to some places, one of them  being Sagat, S-a-g-a-t, and goes around.  Yes.  Now, that's one of the territories.  The second  territory is, first of all, the black line that goes  around the outside and then it becomes a dotted and  dashed line.  Yes.  Now, the reason it's a solid black line from the  legend is its external boundary of the Gitksan, and  this refers to external boundary. 1  THE  COURT  2  3  4  MR.  GRANT  5  THE  COURT  6  MR.  GRANT  7  THE  COURT  8  MR.  GRANT  9  10  11  12  THE  COURT  13  14  MR.  GRANT  15  16  17  THE  COURT  18  MR.  GRANT  19  20  21  22  THE  COURT  23  MR.  GRANT  24  25  THE  COURT  26  MR.  GRANT  27  28  29  THE  COURT  30  MR.  GRANT  31  Q  32  33  34  A  35  Q  36  A  37  MR.  GRANT  38  MR.  PLANT  39  40  41  42  43  MR.  GRANT  44  45  46  47  4542  Yes.  And the territory is the -- the dot/dash line  in the upper left one-third of the map, is it, the  solid line and the dot/dash line?  The solid line, yes.  And the dot/dash line --  Yes.  -- surrounding the word t-s-i-h-1-g-w-e-l-l-i-i.  That's the second territory.  The only reason I  referred you to this is because the witness was  talking about where his father went, and I want you to  have some placing of that.  :  That westerly external boundary, that must be a  substantial creek or river, is it?  :  Yes.  The witness will speak to it.  It's not just a  creek or river, my lord.  It's a number of things, my  lord.  :  Yes.  All right.  :  But this is the western boundary.  Just to  approximate you on Exhibit 5, my lord, it -- it's  referred to -- it's this outer -- the most westerly  most portion.  Well --  :  On Exhibit 5.  :  On Exhibit 5 on the middle part.  Then there's  another piece in here.  :  Yes.  :  Those are the two territories, but we thought it  would convenience you to have them both on the same  map to follow this witness' evidence.  :  Thank you.  So you -- I'm sorry, Mr. Mathews, for the  interruption, but you indicated that your father  travelled on both of these territories?  Yes.  And he travelled on them with whom?  With Charlie Smith.  :  Okay.  And with anyone else?  :  Before the witness answers that, my lord, I'm not  sure if it's been established in the evidence or not  whether or not the witness' father is still alive, and  I would like to have that before I consider my  position in relation to this evidence.  :  The witness' father is still alive, my lord.  In  fact, he swore an affidavit which has been delivered  to my friends relating to the territorial boundaries,  and that affidavit is an affidavit of the witness'  father. 4543  1  THE  COURT  2  MR.  GRANT  3  Q  4  5  A  6  THE  COURT  7  MR.  GRANT  8  THE  SPELL  9  THE  COURT  10  MR.  GRANT  11  Q  12  13  A  14  MR.  PLANT  15  16  17  THE  COURT  18  19  MR.  GRANT  20  Q  21  22  A  23  24  Q  25  A  26  Q  27  28  A  29  30  31  Q  32  33  A  34  Q  35  36  37  A  38  39  40  41  42  Q  43  44  A  45  46  Q  47  And his name is?  Art Mathews Senior, and I think his Indian or chief's  name is Ts'iiwa'?  Ts'iiwa'.  :  How is that spelled?  :  Just a moment, my lord.  3R:  Ts'iiwa', T-s-apostrophe-i-i-w-a-apostrophe.  :  Thank you.  Did your father travel on the territory with anyone  else besides Charles Smith?  Yes.  :  Perhaps this is evidence that should be given by Mr.  Mathews Senior unless it's being tendered for some  collateral purpose.  :  Well, you have a problem there, don't you, Mr.  Grant?  Yes, my lord.  Okay.  I'll proceed.  Have you travelled on these territories?  I've travelled on the upper tsihl gwellii part and on  the xsi gwin ixstaat.  When you say "the upper part" --  Tsihl gwellii.  And who did you travel on those territories with  yourself?  My three grandfathers:  Jack, Geoffrey and Wallace.  There was a purpose.  I went up there.  Afterwards  I'll get into it later.  And did you travel on those territories with your  father?  Yes.  Well, maybe now you should -- can you describe for the  Court why you travelled there with your three  grandfathers?  To show me the boundaries, the boundaries of our  territory that touches off with some of our relatives  from the Kitsimkalum area and the relatives from the  Nass.  They took me up here to show me where our  boundaries starts, begins, and the corner posts.  Can you explain for the Court your relationship  through your father to the House of Luuxoon?  When you say "relationship", you mean my father or as  a teacher?  Well, I mean -- I mean in terms of your  responsibilities for your territory.  Is there any 4544  1 involvement of Luuxoon's house?  2 A   Yes.  They're my wilksiwitxw.  The House of Luuxoon  3 are my wilksitxw.  And when I talked about the phrases  4 my grandfather used earlier at the feast, he specified  5 a direct order, or asked that all my wilksitxw take  6 care of me, never to abandon me, to help me, to groom  7 me, to teach me all the laws, the rules that I have to  8 play.  That's the Simoogit.  9 Q   And have they been involved in that?  10 A   Yes.  11 Q   Have others than your father been involved in that?  12 A   Yes.  My mother from Guxsan.  From my mother's side I  13 take an active role because during that same phrase,  14 he handed me over to all the chiefs that were present  15 in the hall so that they can look after me, groom me,  16 not give me away in the sense of things, to show me  17 directions as a young chief.  Like, he said that I  18 have to have more grooming, more respect in these  19 areas, not to the territory itself but the role and  20 the laws that will apply; that they would give me  21 directions in these areas.  22 Q   And you referred to Guxsan.  And that's your mother's  23 wilksitxw?  24 A   Yes.  My mother's wilksitxw.  25 Q   And do they have a responsibility for you as well as  26 for your mother?  27 A   Yes.  They're my -- what I call in our language  28 niye'e.  It is my grandfather on the Guxsan's side, so  29 they have a great role to play to train me.  30 MR. GRANT:  Did you get that last word, Miss Stevens?  31 THE SPELLER:  niye'e is n-i-y-e-apostrophe-e.  32 THE COURT:  What is that, please?  33 THE WITNESS:  Grandfather.  34 THE COURT:  That's grandfather?  35 THE WITNESS:  Yes.  In our system.  36 THE COURT:  Did I get this right?  That the House of Guxsan is  37 your mother's wilksitxw?  38 THE WITNESS:  Yes.  39 MR. GRANT:  I think that's G-u-x-s-a-n, and they're a named  40 plaintiff.  I'd like to refer you for a moment to  41 Tab -- Tab 3 of the document book.  I'm sorry.  It's  42 Exhibit 348.  I think that's 347.  Oh, Tab 3.  4 3 THE COURT:  4 4 MR. GRANT:  4 5 THE COURT:  4 6 MR. GRANT:  47       Q   Now, with reference to that, starting from the centre  Tab 3, yes.  Yes.  Tab 348, 1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  12  13 THE  14 THE  15 MR.  16  17  18  19  2 0 THE  21  22 THE  23  24  2 5 MR.  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  4 0 THE  41 THE  42  43 THE  44 THE  45  4 6 MR.  47  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  COURT:  MR.  THE  4545  of the table where yourself and Henry Tait sit, Ax tii  hiikxw and Tenimgyet, and going up to the top of that  page, are those persons all members of your house?  Yes.  And your clan?  Yes.  Now, this -- can you indicate to the Court where the  door of the hall would be in this diagram in relation  to this table if you were sitting where your name is?  If I was sitting -- we turn this around.  Like, start  where it is centred and turn the book this way.  And  the door would be here.  We'd be the head table.  COURT:  The door would be in front of the "C" of centre?  WITNESS:  Yes.  GRANT:  And you would be facing the door?  Yes.  Whoever putting this up, if it was the frogs,  were known as the 'niidil, which I'll deal with later  in detail.  You would be facing the door with your back to  everyone else?  WITNESS:  No.  Facing the door this way.  The wall would be  here and we'll be facing the people that are putting  on the feast over here.  GRANT:  Q   Okay.  Just indicate the -- in the diagram.  So if you  were sitting here where your name was and this was the  table where it says "centre of table", just where  would the door be then?  A  Well, if this was the feast hall, because we sit in  the back --  Q   Yes?  A   -- which will be -- indicate this will be the back of  the hall and the front of the hall here --  Q   Yes.  A   -- we will be facing the people.  GRANT:  Okay.  COURT:  That doesn't make sense to me.  I'm sorry.  If you  take the page as being the hall --  WITNESS:  Yes.  COURT:  -- and the door is by the word "centre", as I think  you said --  WITNESS:  Yes.  COURT:  -- then if you're facing the door, you'd have your  back to the rest of the hall, would you not?  GRANT:  Q   No.  The door is at the far end of the hall from the 4546  1 centre; is that right?  2 A   Yes.  3 THE COURT:  All right.  Well, then you're not using the page  4 then as the hall.  5 THE WITNESS:  Like, if you were sitting right where you are,  6 your lordship, that's the way these are put, and the  7 door here.  8 THE COURT:  Then you'd be facing —  9 THE WITNESS:  Facing your audience, the rest of the feast hall.  10 THE COURT:  All right.  11 MR. GRANT:  So behind the names, is that where the wall would be?  Yes.  Forget about the names.  Okay.  Concentrate with the table.  Okay.  There's the table.  Yes.  And you're sitting on this side?  Yes.  That is the side where those names are, the right-hand  side, my lord.  The wall would be to the right of  that?  Yeah.  And the right-hand side of the page, the hall would be  off the page to the left?  Yes.  You can just ignore the names.  That's just for  reference.  28 MR. GRANT:  Now, this — this is entitled as a feast hosted by  29 the Ganeda.  And that shouldn't be Canada, my lord.  I  30 think it's G-a-n-e-d-a.  31 THE COURT:  Yes.  32 MR. GRANT:  33 Q   That's the frog clan; is that right?  34 A   Yes.  It will be a great thing if Canada would host it  once in a while.  May be a bigger feast.  How many clans are there in  Gitwangaak?  Originally three.  Which ones?  The Lax Gibuu, the Lax Skiik, and Ganeda.  41 THE COURT:  I'm sorry.  42 MR. GRANT:  Lax Gibuu, which is right on the top, my lord, Lax  43 Skiik.  12  Q  13  A  14  Q  15  A  16  Q  17  A  18  Q  19  A  20  Q  21  22  23  A  24  Q  25  26  A  27  35  36  Q  37  38  A  39  Q  40  A  4 4 THE COURT  4 5 MR. GRANT  4 6 THE COURT  S-k-i-i-k?  Yes.  And Ganeda.  Lax Skiik is what?  47 THE WITNESS:  Eagle. THE COURT  MR.  THE  MR.  THE  MR.  9 THE  10 MR.  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  2 8 THE  2 9 MR.  30 THE  31 THE  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44 THE  45 THE  4 6 THE  THE  GRANT  COURT  GRANT  COURT  GRANT  COURT  GRANT  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  4547  Thank you.  And the other one is Ganeda, is it,  G-a-n-e-d-a; is that right?  Yes.  With the G underlined.  That's frog.  Yes.  Thank you.  I'd ask that Exhibit 348 be  be made on the exhibit.  Yes.  that correction can  Now, in this diagram, Exhibit 348, next to Henry Tait  on the other side of you, it shows Vernon Smith?  Saxum hiigookx.  And he is a chief of the Lax Skiik clan?  Yes.  And then below him there is a number of other persons  and after their names it refers to Lax Skiik.  They  are all Lax Skiik or eagles?  Yes.  Can you explain to the Court why you and the Lax Skiik  sit together at the feast hall, why your house?  We refer back to the map.  What tab was that?  Certainly.  It's Tab 5 if you wish to refer to the  map.  You can actually take it out of there if you  like.  In our adaawk, we originated from the village of Git  lax an dek'.  Is that shown here?  The name isn't on there, my lord.  All right.  Spelling, please?  Git lax an dek' is 402 and it's spelled  i-t-space-1-a-x  THE  MR.  47  A  COURT  GRANT  COURT  SPELLER  G  underlined-a-n-space-d-e-k-apostrophe.  WITNESS:  That's where our tribe -- this house originated.  We left Git lax an dek'; that their brothers were  living at Xsi gwin k'aat' close to Doreen.  GRANT:  Q   Before you go on here, can you explain to the Court  where on the map this Git lax an dek' would be?  A   Right opposite the lake.  Q   That's the one you're indicating, the one Dam gistum  Geelum?  A   Dam gistum Geelum, we call it in our language.  COURT:  On which side of the lake?  WITNESS:  Looking at it, it would be on the left side.  COURT:  It would be the west side?  WITNESS:  Yes. 4548  1 MR. GRANT:  2 Q   And would it be near the top of the lake or the  3 bottom?  4 A   Yes.  Closer to the top than the bottom.  I'll just have you --  Just a moment.  5 MR. GRANT  6 THE COURT  7 MR. GRANT  8 Q   -- put a "1" on that.  Just put a "1" approximately  9 where it is.  10 A  Approximately this area.  11 MR. GRANT:  My pen is of no good.  12 THE COURT:  You put a cross?  13 THE WITNESS:  I don't like using crosses.  14 MR. GRANT:  15 Q   Just use a "1", eh.  You can put it on the underlay  16 and it will show through.  Put a "1" where that  17 village is.  18 A   It's in this area.  19 MR. GRANT:  Okay.  20 THE COURT:  There's already there —  21 THE WITNESS:  No.  It's another part of it.  22 MR. GRANT:  Can you show the exhibit to the Court?  It's on the  23 underlay, one just on the left side, my lord.  You can  24 see where he's marked it.  25 THE COURT:  Yes.  Thank you.  26 THE WITNESS:  Now, if you start from there, there's a dotted —  27 like, dotted line.  28 THE COURT:  Going east or going north?  29 THE WITNESS:  Going east.  3 0 THE COURT:  Yes.  31 THE WITNESS:  That's the route Tenimgyet and 'Wii Hloots' left  32 this village, because it was getting overcrowded or  33 whatever.  They left and migrated over the mountain.  34 They took the creek known to us as Xsi mehletxwit.  35 MR. GRANT:  Can you give that spelling?  36 THE SPELLER:  Xsi mehletxwit, X-s-i-space-m-e-h-1-e-t-x-w-i-t.  37 THE WITNESS:  They went to this creek up over the mountain till  38 they reached the creek.  In our language we call that  39 creek Xsi gwin axwt.  40 THE SPELLER:  Xsi gwin axwt, X-s-i-space-g-w-i-n-space-a-x-w-t.  41 THE WITNESS:  And follow down the creek to Skeena, Xsan.  Then  42 from there -- this is west -- west to a village, Xsi  43 gwin k'aat', which is close to Doreen.  There they  44 lived.  45 THE COURT:  They went down river to Doreen?  46 THE WITNESS:  Down to Skeena.  To reach this village you have to  47 go down to Skeena a ways. 1 MR  2  3  4  5  6  THE  THE  4549  GRANT:  Q   Can you give the spelling of that village?  A   They went to Xsi gwin k'aat', where the village was.  SPELLER:  Xsi gwin k'aat', X-s-i-space-g-w-i-n-space-k  underlined-apostrophe-a-a-t-apostrophe.  COURT:  That's Doreen, is it?  7 THE WITNESS:  Doreen.  That's close to it.  Doreen will be  8 further down.  Just for the record, my lord, the witness, as he was  describing this, was following along with his finger  along the dotted line, which goes parallel.  What's on  the underlay map is Quill Creek and further west is on  the underlay as Douglas Creek.  So that's the -- of  the dotted trail lines, it's the southernmost of those  on this document.  Just go ahead.  They lived here a long time with the Lax Skiik group.  They didn't change crests, or nobody went into other  houses.  They lived separately.  They formed a  village, and the village belonged to the Lax Skiik,  this ancient village.  The head chief of the village  there, the Xsi gwin k'aat', was Ligii Nihla.  And just referring to Exhibit 348 for a moment, is  that the name that's referred to underneath Vernon  Smith's name?  That's right.  :  What's the name of the village, L-i-g-i-i-n-i-h-1-a?  That was the name of the head chief?  Yes.  Ligii Nihla was his name.  :  That wasn't the name of the village?  No.  That was the name of the head chief, my lord.  They lived here for many years.  Like I said, it's a  village, and there they formed the rules that were  supposed to be followed, and it is today.  The rule  was they would work together because there was a few  of them, but not to cross crests or anything or  adaawk.  It stays normal, because they just moved as  one village.  The only -- because there was a few of  them, they decided to combine the territory -- not the  territory but the seating arrangements, and they were  older than Wii hloots and Tenimgyet, and everytime  there's a rule.  They were slightly ahead of us  because we were younger than they were.  There's a  rule.  And that is why the house is split.  The  seating arrangements were fixed in the feast halls;  9  MR.  GRANT  10  Q  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  A  18  19  20  21  22  23  Q  24  25  26  A  27  THE  COURT  28  MR.  GRANT  29  Q  30  A  31  THE  COURT  32  MR.  GRANT  33  Q  34  A  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47 4550  1 that it was there and we follow it today; that the Lax  2 Gibuu and Lax Skiik sit side by side.  From there they  3 migrated up to Skeena up towards what's known as  4 Kitwanga today.  They lived across the river from what  5 is known as Kitwanga today to a place, the village  6 they started again.  They call it Ant gii is.  7 MR. GRANT:  Do you have the spelling for that?  8 THE SPELLER:  Ant gii is, A-n-t-space-g-i-i-space-i-s.  9 THE WITNESS:  They lived here a while.  When they say a while,  10 in our language it might be a couple hundred years or  11 whatever.  Then they decided to move across close to  12 where Kitwanga is today.  There's a little river  13 running down there.  We call it Xsi t'ax.  14 MR. GRANT:  Go ahead.  15 THE SPELLER:  Xsi t'ax is X-s-i-space-t-apostrophe-a-x  16 underlined.  17 THE WITNESS:  Known today as Kitwanga River on the map.  Here  18 they lived because there was plenty of fish and  19 provision were readily available for them here.  They  20 lived here until they joined 'Neekt and his group.  21 MR. GRANT:  'Neekt.  22 THE SPELLER:  'Neekt, apostrophe-n-e-e-k-t.  23 THE WITNESS:  And Lax T'a'otsip, which I referred to the house  24 earlier.  2 5 MR. GRANT:  26 Q   That's where the battle hill is located.  27 A   Yes.  28 Q   You said that -- in some detail you said that when  29 they moved up that -- I think you said it was Ligii  30 Nihla or Xsi gwin k'aat' were older than Wii hloots  31 and Tenimgyet.  Is there a different word in the  32 description of the adaawk which tells you who was the  33 younger and the older?  34 A   Yes.  In our language, we have names.  Like, for  35 instance, when you're just born to teenager, we call  36 Si gigyet.  37 MR. GRANT:  Can you give that, please?  38 THE SPELLER:  S-i-space-g-i-g-y-e-t.  39 THE WITNESS:  And then there are the followers, your warriors,  40 your workers, your helpers, your everything.  They're  41 called am gigyet.  42 THE SPELLER:  A-m-space-g-i-g-y-e-t.  43 THE COURT:  g-i-g-y-e-t?  44 THE SPELLER:  Yes.  45 THE WITNESS:  And then the younger chiefs were called Lax  46 gigyet.  47 THE SPELLER:  L-a-x underlined-space-g-i-g-y-e-t. THE  MR.  1  2  3  4  5  6 MR.  7 THE  8 MR.  9 THE  10 THE  11 THE  12  13  14  15  16 MR.  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  2 4 MR.  25  26  27  28  2 9 THE  30  31 THE  32  33 MR.  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  4551  WITNESS:  And then you have your Sim gigyet, the higher  ranking, older, wiser.  GRANT:  Q   Are they chiefs?  A   Chiefs, yes.  GRANT:  I think -- do you have that one, Sim gigyet?  COURT:  No, I don't.  I may have.  GRANT:  You may as well have it.  SPELLER:  S-i-m-space-g-i-g-y-e-t.  COURT:  Thank you.  WITNESS:  That is how we know the age group or the dividing  of every group.  They say -- well, if I mention Sim  gigyet, Lax gigyet, am gigyet and the newborns, the  teenagers, Si gigyet, we know exactly which age group  we're talking about.  GRANT:  Q  A  Q  You have those -- those are the names you just gave?  I just repeated them.  Now, one of the names you mention in this history of  this migration was 'Wii Hloots'.  And that's held by  someone in your house today?  A   Yes.  Today it's held by my other uncle, Horace Tait,  as you could see on the seating list.  It's listed.  GRANT:  On Exhibit 348 it is held by his — before we go  further, possibly we could have the map on -- at Tab .  marked as the next exhibit, my lord, just so that it  will be for ease of reference.  And the witness has  identified the southern trail on the boundary.  REGISTRAR:  Exhibit 349, Tab 5, a map.  (EXHIBIT 349:  Tab 5, map)  WITNESS:  May I just add here, Peter, that this trail is  still in use.  GRANT:  Q  A  Q  A  This trail that you've described?  Yes.  Okay.  We will return -- I'll return to that.  Yes.  But I thought I'd just remind you that it's  still in use.  Q   Yes.  When you hold a feast, that is when your house  puts on a feast in Gitwangaak, do the Lax Skiik sit at  that feast, or do they --  A   No.  I forgot to get into that, but they help each  other in every way.  If they put up a feast, we're  there.  If we put up a feast, they're there.  If they  put up a pole, we're there to help.  We put up a pole,  they're there.  THE COURT:  When you say "they're not seated", you mean that THE  THE  THE  MR.  9  10  11  12  13 THE  14  15  16 MR.  17  18  19  20  21  22 MR.  23  24 THE  2 5 MR.  26  27  28  2 9 MR.  30 THE  31 THE  32  33 MR.  34 THE  35 MR.  36 THE  THE  MR.  39 THE  40  41  42 MR.  43  44  45  46  47  37  36  4552  they --  WITNESS:  They're the host.  COURT:  They're like a host?  WITNESS:  They're running the feast.  GRANT:  Q   Are there -- there Gisk'aast or fireweed houses that  are from Gitwangaak?  I don't mean people living there  now but people at those houses at Gitwangaak?  A   Just the Ganeda.  Wii hlengwax got a house.  I'm  reading out the frogs now.  Q   Okay.  A  And Ax goot, Hakw.  COURT:  I'm lost, Mr. Grant.  I thought the question was  whether there were any people from the fireweed houses  living in Gitwangaak.  GRANT:  Q   You mentioned the three clans.  That is the  fireweed -- or I'm sorry -- the Ganeda, the Lax Gibuu  and the Lax Skiik.  There is no Gisk'aast in  Gitwangaak; is that correct?  A   Not earlier.  GRANT:  And now what you're referring to is Wii hlengwax.  Which number is that?  SPELLER:  76.  GRANT:  Q   76.  Those are frog houses.  Gitwangaak and Hakw I  believe you referred to?  A   Hakw.  GRANT:  That's number —  SPELLER:  I'm not sure if it's on here.  COURT:  We have several that sounds like Hakw.  H-a-a-x-w.  GRANT:  I think it's —  COURT:  And then we have 30.  GRANT:  H-a-k-w.  It's in the pleadings.  COURT:  H-a-k-w.  COURT:  It's not on the list, not alphabetically anyway.  GRANT:  Now —  COURT:  I'm sorry.  I have an incomplete note then, Mr.  I've got number 7 6 and Hakw.  And what about  It's not on here.  27 is  Grant.  them?  GRANT:  Q  A  Q  A  Q  Okay.  They are head chiefs?  They are head chiefs.  Of which clan?  The frogs.  And where are their houses? 1  A  2  Q  3  A  4  Q  5  A  6  Q  7  A  8  Q  9  10  11  A  12  Q  13  A  14  Q  15  A  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23 THE  COURT  24  25  2 6 MR.  GRANT  27  2 8 THE  COURT  29  30  31 MR.  GRANT  32  Q  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  A  42  Q  43  44  45  46  A  47  Q  4553  On Gitwangaak.  What about Lelt?  Lelt is another house, yes.  Of the frog clan?  Yes.  As a Wii hlengwax.  And that's in Gitwangaak?  Yes.  There's a number of them.  Okay.  You mentioned this fishing -- you mentioned the  place where the Lax Skiik and the Lax Gibuu came at  Gitwangaak.  Is that place still used today?  If you remember the marshmallow incident, yes.  And that was -- that is a fishing site?  That's a fishing site, yes.  Okay.  Who is the head chief of the Lax Skiik today?  Now it's known as Saxum higookx, and I cannot speak  for the group, how that formed or whatever reasons  they pulled out.  Saxum higookx ran ahead of Ligii  Nihlaa, but in our adaawk we always recognize Ligii  Nihlaa, but we also accept the fact that they have  Saxum higookx, the fact that they run into problems  like we did with the death and the diseases.  I can't  speak for them.  :  I didn't get that, Mr. Grant.  I'm sorry.  You asked  him who was the head chief of the Lax Skiik and he  gave you the name.  :  He gave me the name Saxum higookx.  My lord, if you  refer to 348 Tab 3.  :  Yes.  That is the name that is parallel to Vernon  Smith's name.  Yes.  All right.  I didn't get what he  said after that.  Okay.  And the witness was describing that he could  not speak for them, but that they refer to Ligii  Nihlaa, and that's the name that's underneath Vernon  Smith's name as part of -- as a head chief of the  eagles.  Now, you were saying that -- I think you referred  also to the fact that they may have -- have had  difficulty like you in terms of the disease; is that  right?  Yes.  That's what I said, but I cannot speak for them.  Yes.  Can you tell the Court on -- at Tab 3 there's a  blank for an English name besides Ligii Nihlaa.  Do  you know who holds that name or cares for that name  today?  Vernon Smith.  So he is the present holder of both names? 1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  MR.  MR.  A  PLANT:  GRANT:  Q  Yes.  I don't want to be confused,  holds or cares for that name.  4554  The question was who  MR.  THE  THE  THE  THE  THE  THE  THE  THE  Yes.  I see what my friend is saying.  My friend was  concerned about my question more than your answer.  I'll clarify it.  Does he hold the name himself?  A   Yes, he does.  GRANT:  Okay.  My lord, it may be an appropriate time for  the break because I was going to move into a new area.  COURT:  Does he hold the name as a caretaker?  WITNESS:  He holds the name Ligii Nihlaa.  COURT:  So I should just take it your evidence is that the  holder of Ligii Nihlaa is Vernon Smith?  WITNESS:  Yes.  He holds both names, yes, and he holds Saxum  higookx as well.  COURT:  As well as —  WITNESS:  Saxum higookx.  COURT:  All right.  Thank you.  Two o'clock.  REGISTRAR:  Order in court.  Court will adjourn until two.  (PROCEEDINGS ADJOURNED)  I hereby certify the foregoing to be  a true and accurate transcript of the  proceedings transcribed to the best  of my skill and ability.  Kathie Tanaka, Official Reporter  UNITED REPORTING SERVICE LTD. THE  THE  MR.  4555  (PROCEEDINGS RESUMED AT 2:00)  REGISTRAR:  Order in court.  Calling Delgamuukw and Her  Majesty the Queen at bar, my Lord.  Mr. Grant.  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35 MR.  36 THE  37 THE  3 8 MR.  39 THE  4 0 MR.  41 THE  42  43  44 THE  4 5 MR.  4 6 MR.  47 THE  COURT:  GRANT:  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  GRANT  Yes, my Lord.  Before proceeding, I have a word list  which is alphabetical so the number, and there was  some difficulty about getting the numbers -- the  number ordering on the system.  We'll get that in due  course, but in any event, it's alphabetical and it's  Gitksan words.  I've provided copies to my friends.  Mr. Mathews, this morning you were talking about your  father's side, your wilksiwitxw, and was Charlie  Smith, I believe you indicated was related to your  father?  That was his grandfather, stepfather like in a way,  but the reason he was on our territory, through  Amnigwootxw.  Your grandfather, Charles Smith?  Charles Smith.  Now, did Charles Smith at any time take care of the  Tenimgyet territories for the members of the House of  Tenimgyet?  Yes, he did.  Can you explain to the court what happened and why?  What happened was -- this is the, might say the  tail-end of the era of this disease I talked about  when it wiped out our house almost down to just  children left, so Charlie Smith took control, you  might say, through amnigwootxw, and by doing that he  had to obtain a name, one of the names in our house,  the chief name, like my brother Ivan now holds, was  Bii Lax ha.  Just pause a minute.  Do you have that number?  TRANSLATOR  COURT  GRANT  COURT  GRANT  475.  Sorry?  475.  Thank you.  On this listing it could be alphabetical, my Lord.  COURT:  Yes.  Now, there was a word that he took control,  and this word was used and by doing that he had to  have a name.  I didn't get the word.  TRANSLATOR:  Amnigwootxw.  GRANT  GRANT  COURT  Amnigwootxw.  Do you have that word?  Did we have it this morning? 1  MR.  GRANT  2  THE  COURT  3  THE  TRANS  4  THE  COURT  5  THE  TRANS  6  THE  COURT  7  MR.  GRANT  8  Q  9  10  A  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  Q  21  22  A  23  24  25  Q  26  27  A  28  29  Q  30  A  31  Q  32  33  34  35  36  A  37  Q  38  A  39  Q  40  41  42  A  43  44  Q  45  A  46  Q  47  MR.  GRANT  4556  :  I believe we did, my Lord.  :  Can we have it again, please?  LATOR:  A-m-n-i-g-w-o-o-w-x-w.  :  I'm sorry, can we have it again?  LATOR:  A-m-n-i-g-w-o-o-w-x-w.  :  Thank you.  And what do you mean when you say he had that name by  amnigwootxw?  There are, in our house and all Gitksan houses, two  types of amnigwootxw.  One is privileged rights.  This  amnigwootxw I'm talking about now through Charlie  Smith was the actual taking of a name from our house  and using it to show control, jurisdiction, and  ownership.  If he did not obtain the name Bii Lax ha  all other chiefs wouldn't have recognized -- he had no  voice, he had no business talking about this house, he  had no rights to be a care keeper, so in that sense he  had to obtain the name Bii lax ha.  Is what you've just described for Charlie Smith  different than what you said was privileged rights?  Yes.  Privileged amnigwootxw right is you don't have a  name from our house but you're privileged to come on  our territory through your father's side.  And when did Charlie Smith take on the name Bii Lax ha  and take care of the territory?  It was in around the early 20's, and it ended about  '41 or '42.  1941 or '42?  Yes.  I would ask you to look at tab 14 of the document  book.  It's the last tab.  Now, that is -- that first  page of that tab is a trapline -- application for  registration of a trapline dated January 12, 1986 --  or 1926.  Did you -- you knew Charles Smith?  Yes.  Could he write?  No.  Okay.  Have you been able to compare the description  under the geographical points there in relation to  your territory?  If we use our boundaries through our own system, and  this relates very close.  To which territory?  To the Tsihl Gwellii territory.  Okay.  :  I would ask for this document to be marked as an 4557  1 exhibit, my Lord.  I don't know if my friends are  2 going to object.  It's Federal Government document  3 10379 or part of the file documents.  4 THE COURT:  The entire document?  5 MR. GRANT:  I'm only referring to the top page to which the  6 witness has referred.  That is the January 12th, 1926  7 application of registration of trapline.  8 THE REGISTRAR: for —  9 MR. PLANT:  My Lord, this document is admissible as the  10 archival -- the archival designation is on the lower  11 right-hand corner.  I don't think this document is  12 admissible necessarily for anything that has been said  13 about it so far in evidence.  I'm not speaking to  14 that, but I'm quite happy to have this document  15 marked.  16 THE COURT:  All right.  17 MR. MACAULAY:  My Lord, I note from the document this is our  18 document we found.  There is a note at the bottom  19 saying note "See regulations on the back".  I can tell  2 0 your Lordship this is the document we got from  21 Victoria reproduced.  I'm just drawing that to your  22 Lordship.  This -- There's a reverse to that one.  We  23 can -- I can look tonight in our files and see if we  24 have the other side.  25 THE COURT:  All right.  Subject to that the top document in tab  26 14 will be the next exhibit.  27 THE REGISTRAR:  Number 350.  What's the date?  28 MR. GRANT:  January 12th, 1926, application for registration of  29 a trapline by Charles Smith.  30 THE REGISTRAR:  Thank you.  31 THE COURT:  350.  EXHIBIT 350 - Application for registration of a  trapline by Charles Smith dated January 12, 1926  Now, at that time in January of 1926 was Charles Smith  in this role that you were describing?  Yes.  In relation to your territory?  Yes.  Is Charles Smith related to Henry Wilson?  He is his half brother.  And Henry Wilson is still alive?  Yes.  Does Henry Wilson utilize any portion of your  territory or fishing sites?  32  33  34  35  3 6 MR.  GRANT  37  Q  38  39  A  40  Q  41  A  42  Q  43  A  44  Q  45  A  46  Q  47 1  A  2  3  4  5  THE  COURT  6  7  MR.  GRANT  8  THE  COURT  9  10  A  11  THE  COURT  12  13  MR.  GRANT  14  THE  COURT  15  16  17  18  19  MR.  GRANT  20  21  22  23  THE  COURT  24  A  25  THE  COURT  26  27  MR.  GRANT  28  Q  29  30  A  31  Q  32  A  33  34  Q  35  A  36  Q  37  A  38  Q  39  40  A  41  MR.  GRANT  42  THE  COURT  43  44  MR.  GRANT  45  46  47  THE  TRANS  4558  Yes.  Because through that other type of amnigwootxw I  was talking about earlier, that his requests of  amnigwootxw as permission from me to use one of our  fishing sites, which is called gwin k'alp.  :  I'm sorry.  What was the word the witness used just  a moment ago?  :  The name of the fishing site, my Lord.  :  That's -- you're giving me the name of the fishing  site?  Gwin k'alp.  :  I thought he used a word a moment ago relating to  the kind of permission.  :  Amnigwootxw.  It's the same term he used early, yes.  :  You know what I have for that word, it's not a  privilege name, it's an actual name that gives them  jurisdiction over the territory.  I took it that this  was some kind of special privilege or a privilege  right different from amnigwootxw.  Am I wrong in that?  :  Yes, my Lord.  I took a note of it because of how  the witness described it that there were two types of  amnigwootxw.  Firstly was privileged rights and then  was the actual taking of the name.  :  Yeah.  They're both using the same word?  Yes.  :  All right.  I thought it was probably a different  word for them.  So what you've described with Charles Smith is he took  the name Bii lax ha and took charge of the territory?  Yes.  And that is amnigwootxw used in one sense?  Yes.  You might say that type of amnigwootxw he took  the territory and held it in trust.  For who?  For our house.  Okay.  Was Charles Smith a member of your house?  No.  When he took that name did he become a member of your  house?  He did, yes.  :  Okay.  :  All right.  And the name of the special fishing  site, please.  :  Gwin k'alp, and I'll be referring to it in Exhibit  31 in due course on that.  It's spelled g-w-i-n  k'-a-l-p.  LATOR:  Number 4 67. 1  THE  COURT  2  MR.  GRANT  3  THE  COURT  4  MR.  GRANT  5  Q  6  7  8  9  10  11  A  12  13  Q  14  15  A  16  THE  COURT  17  A  18  THE  COURT  19  A  20  MR.  GRANT  21  Q  22  A  23  Q  24  25  26  27  28  A  29  30  31  32  Q  33  34  35  A  36  Q  37  A  38  Q  39  40  A  41  Q  42  43  A  44  45  46  47  THE  TRANS  4559  Thank you.  It's on Exhibit 349?  It's on Exhibit 31, my Lord.  Oh.  Which I requested the registrar to produce.  Your  copies are -- I think are on the table.  I think we  will be referring to that in much more detail later.  You said that Charles Smith took on this  responsibility until around 1941 or '42.  Did he keep  the name Bii lax ha after that time?  No.  It was -- he took the name off and gave it to my  grandfather, Jack Morgan.  And your -- and Charles Smith, he was -- he lived for  sometime after that?  Yes.  Only a few years.  :  Your grandfather's name again?  Charlie -- Oh, the one that received the name?  :  The one that received the name, yes?  Jack Morgan.  This is Geoffrey's brother?  Yes.  I would like to move into another area, Mr. Mathews,  and that is the area of your training to which you  alluded or referred to this morning.  Can you tell the  court when your training to become a high chief or a  Simoogit began and how did it begin?  You might say it began when I first received my first  name, Ligii ooyax, and it started progressing from  there.  We're told short versions about the adaawk  like Biis hoont adaawk.  I will ask you about the adaawk in a moment, but you  say that you were taught a short version of the  adaawk?  Yes.  Can you explain that to the court?  Short versions would be similar to Barbeau's stuff.  You're referring to the type of notes that Barbeau  would have taken?  Yes.  Are there different -- are you taught different  versions of the adaawk?  Yes.  Like I said this morning, that as you grow older  the adaawk expands in more detail, and everything  that's gone into it, the spirituality -- I say  spirituality, we call sisatxw, purification.  LATOR:  S-i-s-a-t-x-w. 4560  1 THE COURT:  I'm sorry.  Can I have it again?  2 THE TRANSLATOR:  S-i-s-a-t-x-w.  :  And what is that, please; spirituality?  Yeah.  It's a purification, the purifying of your very  soul, your spirit, not physically, external.  Um-hum.  These types of thing, they expand and expand, but with  the territorial names, the trails, the cabins, the  exterior boundaries.  It encloses everything after, it  just expands, expands.  It's similar like going to  university where you hear these lectures daily  hammered into you.  Were you taught the adaawk in more and more detail as  you grew up?  Yes.  And you referred to the, I think you've said the Biis  hoont adaawk.  Were you taught that in detail?  Yes.  By these three grandfathers, the short version  of it I heard.  Which three grandfathers again, because you've  referred to a number?  I'm going to start with four, and the first short  version I heard from my grandfather, Charlie Smith,  and his wife, Sophia Smith, and then more in detail  came through Jack, Geoffrey, Wallace, and my mother.  How long does it take to tell in its greatest detail  the adaawk that -- let's take the Biis hoont adaawk,  for example?  Up to four months.  Is that every day type of thing, you mean?  Yes.  You fill in the details, it's really vast.  Like  I said this morning, it covers philosophy, it covers  epics.  It's life, death, survival, covers everything,  covers reincarnation, it covers everything that we do  day to day.  It covers spirituality, why we have nax  noks today, for instance.  It's in detail, a detail  which I can get into if you want me to get into that  area.  I'll come back to that area in a few minutes.  When  the adaawk is taught in detail who is usually present?  This is where we get serious.  Just the family  hears -- a Simoogit tells an adaawk in its -- it's  like I described, all these material things, and  nobody is allowed to hear this, because wisdom leaking  out about our sisatxw, how we do it and how we realize  things, hunting signs, all other things they say  3 THE  COURT  4  A  5  6 MR.  GRANT  7  Q  8  A  9  10  11  12  13  14  Q  15  16  A  17  Q  18  19  A  20  21  Q  22  23  A  24  25  26  27  Q  28  29  30  A  31  Q  32  A  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  Q  41  42  A  43  44  45  46  47 1  2  3  4  5  Q  6  7  A  8  Q  9  10  A  11  12  13  Q  14  15  16  A  17  Q  18  19  20  A  21  THE  COURT  22  23  24  MR.  GRANT  25  26  27  THE  TRANS  28  THE  COURT  29  THE  TRANS  30  THE  COURT  31  MR.  GRANT  32  Q  33  34  A  35  THE  COURT  36  A  37  MR.  GRANT  38  Q  39  A  40  Q  41  A  42  Q  43  A  44  45  46  47  MR.  GRANT  4561  belongs to that house itself.  But actually the actual  adaawk itself publicly is told in feast halls, but not  the secret parts of it.  That belongs to the house  itself.  Okay.  You say that the adaawk talks about your  territory?  Yes.  Is that right?  Is that part of the adaawk talked  about in the feast hall?  Yes.  Like, for instance, in our starvation adaawk, it  describes in great detail our territory, camp sites,  bear dens, where food is available.  Do any of your adaawk describe the relationship or  teach you any significant relationship between your  house and bears?  Yes.  The Biis hoont adaawk.  Okay.  Can you tell in the shorter version but with  some examples of the type of detail in the Biis hoont  adaawk to the court?  Yes.  I can do a short version of it.  :  Before you do that, I don't recognize that adjective  you used a moment ago, Mr. Grant, some kind of an  adaawk.  :  Oh, I'm sorry, I'm sorry.  My Lord, that was the  name.  I thought that it was my term -- can you give a  spelling for that word, Biis hoont.  LATOR: Biis hoont adaawk B-i-i-s --  :  Sorry, B-i-i-s.  LATOR:  Yes.  Space h-o-o-n-t space a-d-a-w-w-k.  :  All right.  And what is that?  Now, when you're referring to Biis hoont, is that the  name of a person in this adaawk?  That is the name, yes, after she was found.  :  Name of a person?  Yes.  And is that name held by someone in your house today?  Yes.  My sister holds that name.  That is Mary?  That is Mary's name.  Can you tell the court what that name means?  Biis hoont, it's a meeting, like how shall I describe  it.  If you see snow outside -- it's the bare ground  where the snow begins best, and it's xbaasin sint, we  say in our language.  :  Go ahead. 1  THE  TRANS  2  THE  COURT  3  A  4  5  6  7  MR.  GRANT  8  Q  9  A  10  11  12  13  14  Q  15  16  A  17  Q  18  19  20  21  22  A  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  MR.  GRANT  34  THE  TRANS  35  A  36  37  38  39  40  41  THE  TRANS  42  THE  COURT  43  A  44  THE  COURT  45  A  46  47  4562  -a-a-s-i-n space s-i-  n-t.  LATOR:  Xbaasin sint, X-b-  :  That is what?  Biis hoon.  What I'm trying to describe here, the  description I'm trying to make, the meaning Xbaasin  sint.  You take a look at Peter where his face meets  his beard, that's xbaasin sint.  You said it was like the snow on the ground?  Yes.  That's just to -- to get you to the meaning of  what I'm talking about now.  You see the gentleman  here seeing what I'm trying to say, when I compare it  with your face where your face meets with your beard,  that's what we call xbaasin sint.  Okay.  And when you hear the adaawk, does that explain  that meaning and why that name?  Yes.  Okay.  Can you -- can you tell the court where that  adaawk took place and then just describe in shorter  form the adaawk and where you think it appropriate  some of the detail, and you can advise the court this  is a more detailed section?  Biis hoont adaawk began -- the map I showed you this  morning where we put number 1 at the village of Git  lax an dek'.  This adaawk begins at Git lax an dek'  shown right here, and you could see it's outside of  our territory.  I will go into why that is.  The chief  of the village, this village here at Git lax an dek',  was Bii lax ha, and the brothers were Tenimgyet and  'Wii hloots'.  One day, fine beautiful day around  August, middle of August, when they went out to pick  berries, these berries we call salmon berries, what we  call 'mii k'ooxst.  :  Can you give a spelling for that?  LATOR:  'M-i-i space K-o-o-x-s-t.  These berries don't grow anywhere else in our  territory except this place, Tsihl Gwellii.  They went  out to pick these berries.  They went out early in the  morning, picked all day, and they filled out the  rough -- there were boxes, we have bent boxes we use  for picking berries on our land which we call Galenk.  LATOR:  G-a-1-e-n-k'.  :  And that's what you call these bent boxes?  The Galenk', yeah, bent boxes.  :  Yes.  And that lady's name before, Biis hoon, she was -- her  name was Noxs Mesxw.  No different -- no doubt about  these young girls who are very proud and very choosy 4563  1 and very picky, as she had three -- two of her uncles  2 were chiefs, along with her father being the head  3 chief.  4 THE COURT:  I haven't got this girl's name?  5 A   Noxs mesxw.  6 THE TRANSLATOR:  Noxs mesxw was N-o-x-s space m-e-s-x-w.  7 THE COURT:  Yes.  8 A   Now, if we were telling this in a longer version we  9 would stop there and go back and break it down, then  10 the Yuuhlxamtxw takes over.  The Yuuhlxamtxw and  11 adaawk goes hand in hand.  The person who's telling  12 the story; Simoogit, or my mother, whoever, they stop  13 here and start breaking this adaawk down.  Okay.  They  14 say that is the reason we cannot be too proud, the  15 bent box that I talk about symbolizes what you're  16 trying to be told before.  You're wise, you collect  17 these and gather it inside these bent boxes as  18 collections for your thoughts, or the bent box  19 symbolizes these things that are told to you, so you  20 see the problem here is you were to try to make an  21 adaawk, it stretches and you fill out all these  22 things, and that's why it's called an adaawk, and  23 these things were done.  But anyway, they went out to  24 pick berries, picked all day, and filled the box.  On  25 the way home this proud young lady stepped and slipped  26 on bear dung, which got her very angry and started  27 calling these bears names, like in our language she  28 called them naak'.  29 THE TRANSLATOR:  N-a-a-k1.  3 0 MR. GRANT:  31 Q   Before we proceed, Mr. Mathews also referred to  32 another word when he said "My grandmother or my mother  33 was telling the story".  Do you have that word on the  34 list?  35 A   Yuuhlxamtxw.  3 6 MR. GRANT:  Yes.  37 THE TRANSLATOR:  It's 345.  3 8 MR. GRANT:  39 Q   It's the last word on the list, I believe?  40 A   Naak' in our language, what it means if we break it  41 down to this, or something like a bastard or somebody  42 with no father, no mother, that's what she said to  43 these bears, "Why did this Naak' put his dung on the  44 way".  After saying that they continued their way home  45 to the village.  They didn't go very far, and the  46 straps on this box we referred to started breaking,  47 and it took sometime to put it together, and they 4564  1 would put it together, she would put it together.  The  2 other ladies would try and help and say "No, get out  3 of here, I don't need your help".  Nevertheless, they  4 kept on.  This happened three times, and they -- it  5 was getting towards evening, so she just told the  6 ladies "I don't want any of your guy's help, go call  7 my brothers, they'll come and get me", which the other  8 ladies did.  They left in -- they didn't -- I don't  9 know, not so long after, she could see her two  10 brothers coming, but this time they didn't look too  11 strange, except they had bear hides across their  12 shoulders.  And when they met up with her she said  13 "Oh, I'm having trouble with my back pack, can you  14 help me".  "Oh, yeah", he said, quickly gobbled up the  15 berries and smashed up the box and threw it away.  16 Anyway, then he said "Okay, we're going home", and  17 which they did, they went.  When they come to the  18 village then it's kind of look strange to her.  The  19 houses were all the same but the people kind of look  20 different because they all had bear skins hanging the  21 wrong way.  Anyway, he went into the house.  Now, she  22 knew it was different because her father was never  23 close, he was always sitting way in the back, and he  24 left her close to the middle of the house.  That  25 evening a little mouse, grandmother mouse, we called  26 it in our language oowinjiits.  27 THE TRANSLATOR:  Oowinjiits, O-o-w-i-n-j-i-i-t-s.  2 8 THE COURT:  And that's a mouse?  29       A   Yes.  3 0 THE COURT:  Yes?  31 A   This mouse came when she was sitting there and tickled  32 her and must have been what you call it, Italian  33 mouse, because he tickled her on the kabut(phonetics).  34 And then the girl turned around and she seen him and  35 she seen the little mouse and said "My grandmother  36 wants to see you", which he quickly did, and the  37 little mouse went under a little pile of branches, and  38 as soon as Biis hoon, Naxs mesxw cleared the branches  39 she was inside a house, this house, this grandmother's  40 house, and the first order of the day when she got in  41 there was she says "Take out the plugs from within  42 your ears and throw it into the fire".  This I asked  43 my grandfather why the mouse and this, and she said it  44 symbolizes conscience, it's not the actual mouse, but  45 your conscience.  Your conscience takes over after you  46 make mistakes, and your conscience, you search, you  47 start to take the plugs out of your ears and start to 4565  1 see what you've overlooked or stepped over or  2 over-reacted, or your conscience now takes over.  That  3 is symbolized by that mouse.  It's a symbol.  And this  4 mouse told her you have been taken by the bears  5 because you laughed about their -- or got mad over  6 their bear dung, was the -- and he says you have to do  7 what they tell you, otherwise if you die your house is  8 wiped out, the whole village will no longer exist, so  9 therefore you have to listen and do what you're told,  10 which this girl -- and he told the girl "You go out to  11 use the washroom".  You see, she was a princess, had  12 bunches of bracelets and earrings.  "Every time you  13 use the washrooms bury deep and put one of your  14 things, your bracelets or broaches or whatever, put  15 one of them on top", which the girl did.  After he  16 went -- this mouse, he went back, now she knows she  17 was taken, kidnapped or kept by the bears.  And when  18 she used the washroom she would put one of these  19 bracelets on it, and after she finished all the other  20 little bears would come after it and put it on the end  21 of a stick and start swinging and said "Look, no  22 wonder why she laughed at us, it looks better than  23 ours".  And from there they left -- lived there all  24 summer.  Once in awhile the chief would tell them the  25 other guy go get some fish, and which they did, and  26 they would come back with great big strings, lines of  27 fish.  They would just string hundreds of fish on the  28 line when they came back, and that the chief told the  29 younger kids "Don't eat the skin of it because it will  30 be too slippery for you", which my mother taught me  31 when I was growing up.  Part of the training -- that's  32 part of the things that the young men in our group  33 don't eat fish scale because it might get slippery  34 when you go out hunting and slip and fall down.  It  35 would be a disaster.  It comes out from this adaawk,  36 but the bears were teaching her and she could listen  37 to what the bears were teaching their children.  And  38 as they would do these things, go out gathering fish,  39 one of them would be missing, and the chief would, use  40 our language, oo hla daawihl saa waak'ooxst.  41 THE TRANSLATOR:  Do you want the spelling of it?  42 THE COURT:  Yes, please.  43 THE TRANSLATOR:  O-o space h-l-a space d-a-a-w-i-h-1 space  44 s-a-a-w-a-a-k'-o-o-x-s-t.  45 THE COURT:  And what is that, please?  46 A   That in our language refers to adaawk waa k'ooxs, it  47 refers to when somebody dies and they cremate them, oo 4566  1 hla daawihl saawaak'ooxst.  They say when somebody  2 dies it means he's gone to another world where he  3 could only pick these waa k'ooxs into another world.  4 MR. GRANT:  5 Q   So it refers to when a person dies and is cremated?  6 A   Yes.  7 Q   Okay.  8 A  And this happened all summer, and some of them would  9 just come back in little parts, maybe just the feet  10 would come back, or hand, or some of them would come  11 back whole with big holes here.  And the chief was  12 talking to his people, say "You see that guy is not  13 completed, that's because they never followed the  14 rules back in your village, they spoiled and damaged  15 or never followed the burning of the hide".  If you  16 didn't need it you would burn it for reincarnation's  17 sake.  If they didn't follow anything, part of a bear,  18 it's not completed, it's not solid, it's not all there  19 you might say because they failed to follow a certain  20 rule, but that's why some of these things we still do  21 today is to look after -- it's our belief in  22 reincarnation through this bear business and what Biis  23 hoon happened to -- seen happen to the bear, and  24 towards the fall before the bears are around, the end  25 of September, early October, the chief of the bears  26 put up a big feast, was going to marry her off,  27 because they were ready to hibernate, so she -- he put  28 up a big feast, and then after which all the  29 witnesses, I'm not going to go into details because  30 you guys are all familiar with that, but they went to  31 the feast system and he get up and says "Naa loosim  32 dim ant neksxw hlguuhlxw'y", which means -- really  33 means "Who out of all of you is going to marry my  34 daughter, Noxs mesxw, and the bears -- one would  35 volunteer, jumped up, and said "I will marry her", and  36 he would say -- and the chief says "Where are you  37 going to stay with her, which part of the country,  38 where"?  39 A  And some other says "At the bank", the bank of the  40 river I'm talking about, not in the Royal Bank or  41 anything, but in a bank, the river bank, and the chief  42 says "No, mesxw is going to find it.  43 THE TRANSLATOR:  Mesxw, M-e-s-x-w?  44 A   That's Biis hoon.  45 THE COURT:  That means dogs?  46 A   That's the girl's dog's name, Mesxw.  Right away these  47 bears know that Mesxw is going to find it and Mesxw is 1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  THE  MR.  THE  COURT  A  GRANT  A  A  4567  going to find it right away and sniff it out, and this  went on and on and on, and finally one in the back  said, there's an old bear sitting there taking care of  his wounds which he collected all summer, a big  grizzly.  He said "My grandmother" -- his big foot  there, it had a crack, he was pouring hot pits on it  and jump around bank "Oh, oh", because the pits would  burn the way -- he was healing up his foot and he was  the last one there, and he was doing this thing.  He  wasn't worried about anybody, he was taking his time.  Then said "I will marry her".  And the chief says  "Where are you going to stay with her, where are you  going to live, which part of the country".  "Oh", he  said, "I'm going to take her up Win laax lislisxwhl  anuhl.  Take her, I'm sorry, where?  Win laax lis lisxwhl anuhl.  I'll get to the meaning  after you get the spelling.  This is a place?  This is a place.  TRANSLATOR:  W-i-n space 1-a-a-x space 1-i-s-l-il-s-x-w-h-l  space a-n-u-h-1.  And this is a description of where the slides -- it's  a unique slide that's on its -- only the slides come  down on both sides, and it kind of the shape at that  ground where it took, it just like a satellite dish,  comparing it today like a satellite dish.  Any little  movement or noise down there you could pick it right  away, it was like a radar thing.  That's why he called  it Win laax lislisxwhl anuhl.  There's two -- it's  like a drum and you tried to touch it, it amplifies  sounds.  The big chief says "Okay, you've got it  because mesxw is going to have a tough time trying to  find her", which they did.  And when they started off  the whole village got up and they all departed, and as  they travelled couples would drop off here, there,  here, there, until they were the last two to keep on  going to go to this place called Win laax lislisxwhl  anuhl.  When they got there the chief, the big bear,  grizzly bear, told her to go and get some bows for  matresses for bedding, and the lady knew how we did  it, humans, and went and got the most softest parts of  the bow, collected and put it down nice, beautiful.  This big guy grabbed them and throw them all out and  said "It's no good, it doesn't work, it's not good,  too hard, you get bruises on it, just imagine if you  sleep on this all winter, you get bruises all over." 4568  1 He went out and showed her and he went out and got  2 great big tops of the trees and put them there, and  3 the girl said when he came home that it's just as soft  4 as anything that she did, the branches off the ground  5 and just like natural spring mattress.  And they  6 prepared for winter, and during the winter he said  7 that every time Biis hoon -- this big guy would be  8 napping most of the time, and every time Biis hoon got  9 hungry and said "I am hungry, what do you want to  10 eat", "Oh, I will have some pieces", like he would  11 pull it out of the back of his pocket and give it to  12 her.  And meanwhile back at the village the Git lax an  13 dek' people were looking for her, and when they found  14 the place where the lady said this is where we left  15 her and told them what happened, so where the --  16 showed where the girl was, and when they seen it  17 through human eyes they seen that was bear tracks  18 beside human tracks, that's when they know that this  19 girl was taken by the bear.  They went home during  20 that winter.  The oldest one started what we call  21 sisatxw, which I was referring awhile ago.  Just  22 purification.  2 3 MR. GRANT:  24 Q   This is the oldest?  25 A   The oldest of the brothers.  26 Q   Of her brothers?  27 A   Yes.  28 Q   Sorry, go ahead?  29 A  And when the sisatxw, he did it but he cheated.  When  30 you sisatxw you're not allowed to sleep with your wife  31 or sex or any of that thing, but he did and he broke  32 the rule, so when he went up to look he would never  33 find, every time he come close the big bear would put  34 his finger in the mouth and point it out of the way.  35 That's where he would go.  He can never come up with  36 it because of the location of this Win laax lislisxwhl  37 anuhl.  You can see right up around.  The second  38 brother followed -- he followed it correctly, only  39 mistake he made was when he eat these woo'uumst.  40 THE TRANSLATOR:  Woo'uumst is W-o-o'-u-u-m-s-t?  41 A  And this is what they use for purification, and he --  42 when he went in there he didn't have sex, he didn't  43 have all the other elements that you go through  44 purification, but his mistake was the woo'uumst were  45 all the different lengths, so it didn't work.  4 6 MR. GRANT:  47 Q   Can you describe what that is? 1  A  2  Q  3  A  4  5  6  7  4569  Woo'uumst is double club.  Okay.  And they would peel the end, the outside bark, and eat  the inside, and they would take this peel, the  outside, and burn the outside where the thorns are.  If they're pokey, if you've ever seen a double club,  they're real pokey on the outside, and in the  8 summertime they're quite poisonous but, anyway, he  9 eats it -- he eats it, and then he would light the  10 bark that was left and inhale it, and he would call  11 the bear, "Eh", going like that, and when he did that,  12 the smoke of what he did went into the bear den, and  13 this big bear den -- this big bear would start fanning  14 it out of his den.  He knew he was trying to perform  15 this sisatxw, and he did the same thing, he went out,  16 but like I said, he cheated and getting too sick over  17 this stuff, so he cut some short, and the same way,  18 when he got close there that big bear would do the  19 same, stick the finger in his mouth and point him out  20 the way, point away a different direction from where  21 the den is.  22 Q   Just for the record, you're indicating putting the  23 finger out and indicating pointing around and  24 stretching your arm out.  Go ahead?  25 A   But when the youngest one, the youngest one, the baby  26 brother you might say, his name was -- you want the  27 name of this guy?  28 Q   Yes.  If you can?  29 A   His name was Tsilim tk'iiwen.  Richard Morgan's young  30 boy holds that name now when we adopted him through  31 Gertie Brown.  32 MR. GRANT:  Can we get a spelling for that?  33 THE TRANSLATOR:  Tsilim tk'iiwen, T-s-i-1-i-m space  34 t-k'-i-i-w-e-n.  35 A  And meaning that Tsilim tk'iiwen, if you're inside the  36 bear den the bear's feet would go ahead headed -- feet  37 come ahead of the body, the paws.  When he was  38 preparing his sisatxw he would do everything right to  39 the tee, to the perfect, the lengths of the arms were  40 the same.  The days of the steam bath, the guxw uutxw,  41 we call it.  42 THE TRANSLATOR:  Guxw uutxw, g-u-x-w space u-u-t-x-w.  43 THE COURT:  I'm sorry.  Did you say O-o?  44 THE TRANSLATOR:  N.  G-u-x-w u-u-t-x-w.  45 THE COURT:  And what does that mean, please?  46 A   It's a sweat box, like some of your saunas.  47 THE COURT:  All right. 4570  1 A  And he would do all these when he -- and when he was  2 doing it, when he was eating this woo'uumst, would  3 spit some of the juice of the mouth of the dog, and  4 what he was was doing -- both him and the dog were now  5 sisatxw, and he would repeat what he -- the other guy  6 would to him.  When he inhaled the smoke from the  7 woo'uumst bark, and when he would puff it out in the  8 back in the bear den they would come in as arrows and  9 stuck quickly, took root to the ground, and this big  10 bear couldn't pull it out, it stuck, and they were  11 just half suffocated there because of this tremendous  12 smoke that was coming in, they couldn't get rid of it  13 anymore, it was deep rooted.  In our language we call  14 that, when that starts to happen, Hla mitxw hli set.  15 THE TRANSLATOR:  Hla mitxw hli set, H-l-a space m-i-t-x-w space  16 h-l-i space s-e-t.  17 A  Which means he's ready, he's -- his soul is ready, the  18 body is ready.  He is part -- if you're trying to  19 relate it to your land, he's right there spiritually,  20 physically, mentally, he's all there prepared.  And  21 when this started happening the big grizzly started  22 teaching his wife what he would do.  He knew they were  23 going to come now, so he started teaching it.  He  24 would show this lady what the people back in the  25 village were doing.  He would just point at a wall and  26 show them, "See what they're doing here, see the  27 mistakes they're doing", it was -- he could -- that's  28 why we called him Nax nogam lik'i'nsxw.  29 THE COURT:  Are you saying that he taught his wife or pointed  30 out to her the mistakes people in the village were  31 making?  32 A   Yes.  Was showing her through visions, using the wall.  33 THE COURT:  All right, thank you.  34 MR. GRANT:  Do you have that?  35 THE TRANSLATOR:  Um-hum.  Nax nogam lik'i'nsxw, N-a-x space  36 n-o-g-a-m space 1-i-k'-i'-n-s-x-w.  37 A  And all that says in our language is supernatural  38 grizzly.  3 9 MR. GRANT:  4 0 Q   Um-hum.  41 A  And some of the things we do today directly where this  42 big grizzly would show them the mistakes, he picked it  43 up through these demonstrations he was showing on the  44 walls of the caves, and when he was doing this he knew  45 and then he taught Biis hoon the song to sing when he  46 was dying, the dying song.  We have that in our house.  47 Q   Is it still used today? 4571  1 A   Still used today.  They also have song — another song  2 he composed and taught this woman was the song after  3 he died.  They would sing it after this thing would  4 die.  He also taught her not to put his hide after  5 they would kill him, he wanted his hide -- left the  6 hide intact.  That was just skin and take it off and  7 not to put it on the ground or dirty it in any way,  8 shape or form.  That was a real law.  He didn't want  9 any part of him dirty, and if you go see our training  10 this is the symbol of respect.  You never put down  11 anybody to soil, we have respect for other people.  12 That's all that means, is to respect and honour.  And  13 there was a reason why, and he told his wife, Biis  14 hoon "When you're taking me home, you're tired, put  15 this hide over you, tell your brother not to look back  16 but look straight ahead", and she would.  And she  17 would turn to half bear/half human, which I hold the  18 name, Tenimgyet, he turned to Tenimgyet, half  19 bear/half human.  That was the instructions he left.  20 Meanwhile, her young brother was coming.  He started  21 off early, he knew the spirits were good, he came, the  22 signs, the hunting signs were all there, some of the  23 hunting signs we have.  He had it all that day, like  24 the reading of the chickadees.  If you're going  25 hunting, this was specified by that big grizzly, and  26 that's what happened to him when he went -- if the  27 bird -- the chickadees come from ahead of you and sit  28 behind you you go straight ahead.  The chickadees come  29 from whatever direction, they come from -- you're  30 turned that way, and that's where you will make a  31 kill.  Even today we use that sign.  Also, Gaak, the  32 crow, was there.  He knew the signs, and if the crow  33 comes it just flies over you, never says nothing, just  34 the wing beat.  You could listen to it, like that, you  35 know, certain kill come.  We still practise that,  36 teach it to my children, these signs I'm telling you  37 now.  We still do these things, these practises.  All  38 the signs were there, and he kept going until he was  39 at the foot of -- his sister could see him coming way  40 over, but he was captured by the bears, he couldn't  41 holler, the guy couldn't hear because they were in two  42 different worlds, so he couldn't hear.  43 Q   His sister?  44 A   His sister hollering and screaming, but he knew where  45 he was going, like the signs were all there, and he  46 just kept going until he got to the foot of this big  47 mountain, of this Win laax lislisxwhl anuhl.  There 1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  THE COURT  MR. GRANT  THE COURT  A  THE COURT  MR. GRANT  4572  the sister ground some -- soft snow around March and  her fingerprints and hand marks were there and dropped  it, and it rolled down and landed right on his  snowshoes.  He picked it up and his dog just sniffed  it and made one bark and started wagging his tail.  He  knew the master was up there.  Sorry?  He knew.  Knew what?  He knew that that, the dog, that Biis hoon was up  there.  That was the dog's master.  He started wagging  his tail and jumping and barking, and started going up  just -- you know how a dog is when they recognize,  kind of feel strange if you're away for awhile.  That's what happens, they kind of bark and hesitate.  That's what this big dog was doing.  And the brother  went up, all the instructions were there, the sister  that was in the cave knew, the bear told him that they  will never kill anybody inside a den, they will never  have cubs.  I mean they will have cubs before they're  killed, still happens today, and he told that they  will never kill anybody inside the den, which part of  this adaawk -- this part of the adaawk my uncle Andrew  Derrick told to me.  I will go into it later.  I'll have to take the adjournment now, Mr. Grant.  Yes.  THE REGISTRAR:  Order in court.  Court is recessed.  (PROCEEDINGS ADJOURNED AT 3:05)  I hereby certify the foregoing to be  a true and accurate transcript of the  proceedings herein transcribed to the  best of my skill and abilility  Graham D. Parker  Official Reporter  United Reporting Service Ltd.  (PROCEEDINGS RESUMED PURSUANT TO A SHORT ADJOURNMENT) 4573  1 THE REGISTRAR:  Order in Court.  Ready to proceed, my lord.  2 THE COURT:  Thank you.  Mr. Grant.  Oh, I should tell counsel  3 before I forget that I won't be able to sit on  4 Wednesday morning.  I'm statutory director of the  5 Vancouver Foundation and they have four meetings a  6 year and I'm expected to be there, as I say, on the  7 statutory record.  I don't have any choice in the  8 matter.  9 MR. GRANT:  You could invite them here, my lord.  10 THE COURT:  They might find some proper subject for charity  11 here.  I don't know.  12 THE REGISTRAR:  But we will sit in the afternoon?  13 THE COURT:  We'll sit in the afternoon.  14 MR. GRANT:  So the entire morning we'll be off on Wednesday?  15 THE COURT:  Yes.  16 MR. GRANT:  17 Q   Mr. Mathews, you were proceeding to tell -- in the  18 process of telling the adaawk.  I believe from  19 recollection you were at the point where the younger  20 brother --  21 A  Was at the site.  22 Q   Can you just proceed?  23 A   Yes.  He come to the site, like I said, with this  24 snowball, making it roll down.  I went past that.  25 THE COURT:  I thought it was inside the dens where you won't be  26 killed.  27 THE WITNESS:  I was just talking about our — the loss of the  28 bear; that they'll never kill anybody inside the den,  29 or they will have their cubs inside the den.  This was  30 told by this big grizzly.  31 Anyway, this younger brother came right to the  32 mouth of the den and his sister poked her head through  33 the cave and says, "Just wait.  Just wait here.  Don't  34 do anything.  Just wait".  She went back in.  Not long  35 after the brother heard these little cubs were being  36 born.  He could hear the cubs.  Then she handed them  37 out to him one by one, two of them.  3 8 MR. GRANT:  39 Q   There were two of them?  40 A   There were two cubs.  And told his brother the  41 instructions that were left by this Nax nogam lik'i'  42 nsxw.  You got that?  43 Q   That's the name of the grizzly bear.  44 A   The grizzly bear.  He says, "Don't kill him yet.  45 Don't do anything.  Let him come out.  Come out of the  46 cave", which he did, and then they killed him outside  47 the cave.  And when he was dying, the woman sang that 4574  1 Dirge song.  2 And after that, they put his body on -- they  3 prepared these hemlock branches, where his body was  4 going to be laid after they killed him.  This is  5 instructions left by -- and they did.  And they  6 followed the instructions right to the T like we said  7 when they field dress him, keep his body off the  8 ground, not to get it dirty.  All that was done  9 perfectly.  10 And when they were on their way down back to -- to  11 the village, it's pretty steep, and he's just giving  12 birth to these two cubs.  He told his brother the  13 instructions, "Don't look back.  Just go straight  14 ahead, whatever, here, anything.  Look straight ahead.  15 Don't turn back.  Don't look back".  When they're  16 descending from this cave, he put this hide on her and  17 she walked down perfectly without any problem,  18 slipping or -- or anything.  When he got down this --  19 when he did this, the brother would hear a big  20 grizzly.  They know the sound of a grizzly and that's  21 what he here, but he kept going straight ahead.  He  22 could hear this grizzly behind him, but he knew the  23 instructions and he did.  24 When they came to the edge of the village, that's  25 when the white Biis hoon sang the other bear song,  26 which they -- if it's a male, they say hiilee on the  27 song.  That meant there's a male bear.  If it's a  28 female bear, they say oolee.  There's two.  If it's a  29 male bear, they say hiilee and if it's a female, they  30 say oolee on the song.  31 And his father missing her come running up and  32 meeting her.  He'd hand him these bear cubs.  That was  33 his grandchildren.  Then they take them.  Another  34 instruction the bear had, the big grizzly had, is when  35 they would arrive at the village, they would put up a  36 pole for the cubs to play on.  They call it an bax.  37 We have that today too, an bax.  Wherever we set up  38 camp, we make sure and put up a pole.  An bax, we call  39 it.  40 MR. GRANT:  Could we have a spelling for that, please?  41 THE SPELLER:  An bax, a-n-space-b-a-x underlined.  42 THE WITNESS:  And these little bears, as they grow a little  43 older, they would run up and down this an bax.  That  44 was the purpose.  That was the instructions strictly  45 left by their dad.  And during the time that Biis hoon  46 was captured, there was no bears, nothing.  They  47 disappeared.  The village was almost in famine.  They 1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8 MR.  9  10  11 THE  12 THE  13  14 MR.  15  16  17 THE  18 MR.  19 THE  2 0 THE  21 MR.  22  23 THE  2 4 MR.  25  2 6 THE  27 THE  2 8 THE  2 9 MR.  30  31  32  33 MR.  34  35 THE  3 6 MR.  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  4575  had nothing.  Even the fish disappeared, as mentioned  by this grandmother mouse, told them what would  happen.  If he followed directions from that mouse,  everything would come back once he was recaptured,  which happened, and every time these little bears  would run up, they would see outside on the great big  mountains there.  We call it haahl daax.  GRANT  Q  A  SPELLER  WITNESS  Could you give us that name?  Haahl daax.  Haahl daax, h-a-a-h-1-space-d-a-a-x.  And these big mountains, haahl daax,  it's situated  right here on the map, by the Sand Lake.  GRANT  Q  A  COURT  GRANT  COURT  Okay.  It's indicated on --  Right at the corner.  Where is that between?  Exhibit 349.  Yes.  WITNESS:  Sand Lake.  GRANT:  The far left corner of Sand Lake where you see that  Dam Git axsol, that's Sand Lake.  COURT:  How do you spell Sand Lake?  GRANT:  Sand.  It's S-a-n-d.  It's actually underneath  there.  COURT:  That's the English name of Sand Lake?  WITNESS:  Yes.  Dam Git axsol we call it.  SPELLER:  That's 411 on the word list.  GRANT:  Q   And -- and then there's this mountain that you're  referring to?  A   Yes.  Haahl daax.  GRANT:  Possibly we could put a "2" underneath on the red  where that is.  That's just north of the lake, is it?  COURT:  GRANT:  Q  Yes.  It's different from where the writing is, my  lord.  So I'll have him mark it.  Can you pass that  up?  The witness put a number "2" on it.  A   Yes.  These bear cubs would see, like, a little puff  of smoke.  You ever look out in the morning?  There's  a little puff of smoke along the sides of the  mountains.  That's what them little bears would see.  And they point at it.  They say, "There's my  grandfather's smoke, my grandfather's", and these  hunters would go and find these -- the bear in the den  where they have located.  These little bears would 4576  1 know exactly where these -- the bear den are.  2 And even today we use the same sign to look in  3 that general direction.  If we are searching for  4 bears, we would still use the same thing.  And that's  5 what -- these little bear cubs would point anywhere on  6 that area where the bears' dens used to be.  And in  7 our other adaawk, that bear den still exists today,  8 some of the bear dens that these little bears would  9 identify, and we still use them today as markers in  10 our territory.  11 And I think I'll just come to a stop.  12 Q   I just wanted to ask you a few questions.  One is you  13 mentioned that there was a feast described in the  14 adaawk, and you just made mention of that.  When the  15 adaawk is told to you in detail, are -- is the detail  16 of the feasts and what you're to do at feasts  17 described?  18 A  What I've just described here would have been told at  19 a chief -- at a feast hall.  20 Q   Yes.  21 A   Some of the most detail I've just pulled out.  Like,  22 this is the sisatxw part.  That's a sacred part to us.  23 Q   That would be told within your house?  24 A  Within our house.  And the signs are pulled out.  You  25 guys would make good hunters now.  26 Q   Now, I'd like to show you just to -- when you were out  27 on the territory, were you shown where this -- these  28 events occurred?  29 A   Yes.  30 MR. GRANT:  And I'd like to refer you to the Tab 10 in the  31 exhibit book -- or the document book, I should say,  32 which is a series of photographs.  And all of the  33 photographs have numbers on them and the numbers are  34 correct.  I will refer to them by number, my lord.  I  35 think in a couple of places one or two photographs are  36 switched in location, but the numbers are all correct,  37 as I understand.  Now --  38 MR. PLANT:  Perhaps before my friend asks any questions about  39 these photographs, are they on the list of documents?  4 0 MR. GRANT:  41 Q   No.  These photographs -- a list of documents is being  42 delivered to my friends later today or tomorrow, which  43 these photographs will be on.  They're not on a list  44 of documents, as well as the other documents that are  45 not already listed here will be on that as well as  46 other documents that weren't listed earlier.  47 I just ask if you could refer to any photograph 1  2  A  3  4  5  Q  6  7  8  A  9  Q  10  11  A  12  Q  13  14  15  A  16  Q  17  A  18  MR.  GRANT  19  THE  COURT  20  MR.  GRANT  21  THE  COURT  22  MR.  GRANT  23  Q  24  25  26  27  A  28  29  30  31  Q  32  33  34  A  35  MR.  GRANT  36  37  38  MR.  PLANT  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  MR.  GRANT  46  Q  47  4577  which shows the area where this was?  The recollection of people that I've asked known  pointed out to me they pick berries in this general  area.  The witness is referring to photo number 29, my lord,  which is a photograph of two persons looking at --  this lake is Gitsim Geelum Lake?  Gitsim Geelum.  Now, you indicated where they were picking berries.  This is where Biis hoon was?  Yes.  Can you just on the photograph put a mark, a number  "1" in the area where she was picking berries on that  photograph?  In this general area.  Okay.  Just one moment.  Almost on top of the person writing it.  I'll show that to the Court.  Put a "3" there.  Put a number "1" on that photo number 2 9 in red.  How did you mark it?  With a number "1".  I'm just going to -- now, can you  in that photograph see the area, or in any other  photographs see the area where the grizzly bear took  the Biis hoon?  It's up in behind this mountain here, in that area  behind -- do you see that from here and go up?  There's a creek, a river going up into this area in  behind here.  Okay.  So it's in behind a mountain which is on the  skyline to the right of photo 29.  So if I put an  arrow that way, that would be in behind that?  It's in behind there.  :  And I put an arrow behind to indicate behind where  it would be.  It's on the skyline, indicating where  the witness showed.  :  My lord, when I took the answer to a question one oi  two questions ago, I made a note to the effect  "various people told me", and if the -- or "people  I've talked to", words to that effect.  If this  evidence comes from that, I would like to have the  source of the information stated.  It's not an  objection to the question though, my lord.  Yes.  I will be coming to that, my lord.  I'll deal  with it now.  Who were the people that told you where 1  2  A  3  Q  4  A  5  Q  6  7  A  8  Q  4578  this was?  My dad, standing right there on the photo.  Yes.  What about your grandfathers?  My grandfathers:  Geoffrey, Wallace and Jack.  And your dad is the person on the left in photo 29 as  you look at it; is that right?  Yes.  Now, I'd like to return for a moment to your training.  9 Have you yourself been involved with your grandfathers  10 in hunting bears?  11 A   Yes.  But mostly with my Uncle Andrew Derrick.  12 Q   Oh, yes.  13 A  Ax dii mihl.  In our laws, ways, traditions, your  14 grand -- your uncle is responsible for field training.  15 When I say "field training", it involves hunting,  16 survival and the sisatxw that I talked about.  He's  17 the one who's in charge of training.  I remember one  18 time at Xsi Gwin ixstaat -- Xsi Gwin ixstaat at  19 Pacific Place on our berry patch called Win luu gan.  20 MR. GRANT:  Can you give a spelling for that?  21 THE SPELLER:  Win luu gan, w-i-n-space-1-u-u-space-g  22 underlined-a-n.  23 THE COURT:  What is that, please?  24 THE WITNESS:  Win luu gan.  That's a name of our berry patch.  25 It's a description of where our berry patch is.  2 6 THE COURT:  Thank you.  27 THE WITNESS:  In the Wilson Creek area, Xsi Gwin ixstaat area.  2 8 We went out early in the morning.  He didn't tell me  29 where we're going.  He just said "Come".  We went, and  30 we went up the trail to this berry patch, and there he  31 knew a bear den; took me there, and this was around  32 early March.  You could see it's starting just to melt  33 at the mouth of the cave.  He went; sharpened the end  34 of a stick so long.  I didn't have a tape to measure,  35 stick, sharpened the edge.  36 Q   Between two to three feet long you indicated?  37 A   Yes.  Gave it to me and said, "Get in there and wake  38 the bear up".  With great respect and honour for my  39 uncle, I went in.  I went half-way in and just like  40 anybody else, I chickened out and came crawling back  41 out again.  Then he told me about the things, Biis  42 hoon.  43 I was telling you a while ago that this bear  44 instructed that he'll never kill inside the den, so he  45 told me, "Just go in there.  It's not going to kill  46 you.  Just wake him up", which I did.  I felt better  47 when he told me this from our adaawk, because I had 1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  12  Q  13  A  14  Q  15  16  17  A  18  Q  19  A  20  Q  21  A  22  23  Q  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  A  31  Q  32  A  33  34  35  36  Q  37  A  38  Q  39  40  41  42  A  43  44  45  46  47  4579  great belief in the adaawk, spirits, belief.  So I  went in there and give it a good poke.  I could feel  it moving around.  I then came back out, and the bear  was right behind me.  When they're in the den they're  blind anyway.  When they come out, they don't know.  And he killed him, shot him once.  And as the bear  was still half dead, you might say, it's still going  like that, he grabbed me and rubbed my face on its  mouth, indicating that we will be fearless and fear  nobody; we would have power, same power as this  grizzly had.  And that's one of the trainings I had.  How old were you when that happened about?  I was early teenager, probably about 13 years old.  Can you indicate on the Exhibit 349, I believe, the  map -- yes, Tab 5.  Can you indicate where this event  occurred?  Possibly you can --  Such a small area.  It will be around here somewhere.  Just approximately.  Yes.  Okay.  Just a creek over here.  It will be in that general  area.  Do you want to just put a "3" there?  It's where the  "3" is.  The witness indicated it's very small, so  it's just approximately there because of the size of  the map.  You described -- when you were describing this  adaawk, you described about the lesson about the  chickadee and the raven?  Yes.  Have you used that yourself?  Yes.  And that's been taught also by my Uncle Andrew  Derrick, which his name in our name -- I shouldn't use  the English name too much, but his name is Ax dii  mihl.  That was your mother's brother?  Yes.  It's on the genealogy at page 3, my lord, Mr. Andrew  Derrick.  Is there anything that you do to provide for bears  because of this relationship out of this adaawk?  Yes.  Even today when my mother and father are fishing  down at this area, Wilson Creek, Xsi Gwin ixstaat,  through the training of this great grizzly, we --  whatever fish that's too badly damaged by seals and  whatever, they're old, some of them we catch them that  way, we put them on the beach just a little further 1  2  3  4  5  Q  6  7  8  9  10  11  12  A  13  14  Q  15  16  17  18  19  A  20  Q  21  22  A  23  Q  24  A  25  MR.  GRANT  26  27  THE  COURT  28  MR.  GRANT  29  Q  30  A  31  MR.  GRANT  32  THE  COURT  33  MR.  GRANT  34  THE  COURT  35  MR.  GRANT  36  THE  COURT  37  38  MR.  GRANT  39  40  41  THE  COURT  42  MR.  GRANT  43  Q  44  45  46  47  4580  down above our smokehouse to feed the bears.  The name  of the place where they usually could do this is Xsi  gwin alak', they call them.  It's on our fishing site  map.  Possibly, my lord, we could refer to Exhibit 31 for  identification.  This is Exhibit 31 in these  proceedings.  And this map is -- this is a Kitwanga --  labelled the Kitwanga fishing sites.  You can see  Kitwanga there and it goes downstream.  Now, can you  refer to the fishing site?  You're referring to the  one that is entitled Gwanksim tsim alak'?  Gwanksim tsim alak'.  There's two sites there, you  have to remember.  Okay.  The name that's on the map is G-w-a-n-x-s-i-m,  second word j-a, third word a-a-1-a-x.  I say that  because it may be different than how Miss Stevens --  the witness is pointing to that site.  And there are  two sites there?  Yes.  One is a little bit upstream of where that triangle  is?  Yes.  There are two.  And your smokehouse is at which site?  There it is, Miinhl am k'ooxst.  :  That's M-i-n-h-1-a-m-g-o-o-k-s-t.  Do you have the  area the witness is referring to, my lord?  :  Yes.  And that's the location of your smokehouse?  Yes.  Okay.  Where is the smokehouse again, please?  At Miinhl am k'ooxst.  Oh, yes.  See that on the map?  Well, actually there are three fishing sites there  that are said to belong to Tenimgyet.  :  There are more than that, but the witness was  referring to the one where the one triangle is  furthest upstream on the right bank.  :  Yes.  And he indicated that there are two fishing sites  there, the one that's labelled Gwanksim tsim alak'.  I'll return to that exhibit later in your  examination.  Now, is there an adaawk of your house  that refers to -- I'll say refers to 'Wii hloots' and 4581  1 a dispute between him and his brother?  2 A   Yes.  'Wiihloots' at an ancient time -- when I say  3 "ancient time", the one you're talking — the one I'm  4 going to talk about our adaawk, had a big village at  5 An gol hon, at Woodcock, a place at Woodcock, a place  6 there now known as Woodcock.  7 MR. GRANT:  That name is on the map, Exhibit 349, my lord.  8 THE COURT:  What's it called again?  9 MR. GRANT:  10 Q   An gol hon?  11 A  An gol hon is the name of the fishing site, but the  12 village itself --  13 THE COURT:  A-n-g-o-l-h-o-n?  14 MR. GRANT:  15 Q   That's right.  That's the location.  16 A   'Wii hloots' lived there and Tenimgyet.  17 THE COURT:  I'm sorry.  Who is this person that lived there?  18 THE WITNESS:  'Wii hloots'.  19 MR. GRANT:  Can you give a spelling for that?  20 THE SPELLER:  'Wii hloots' is 474 on the word list.  21 MR. GRANT:  Can you — do you have the spelling there?  22 THE SPELLER:  Apostrophe-W-i-i-space-h-1-o-o-t-s-apostrophe.  2 3 MR. GRANT:  24 Q   This is a chief in your house, 'Wii hloots'?  25 A   Yes.  Him and his brother, a Galaa 'uu.  26 MR. GRANT:  Do you have a number for that, or the spelling?  27 THE SPELLER:  Galaa 'uu, G underlined-a-1-a-a-apostrophe-u-u.  2 8 MR. GRANT:  29 Q   And that's another chief's name in your house?  30 A   Yes.  The brother of 'Wii hloots'.  They lived at this  31 An gol hon, we call it, and his brother, Tenimgyet,  32 lived in Xsi win ixstaat, Wilson Creek in the map.  33 Q   And it's the name just downstream of An gol hon on the  34 map --  35 A   Yes.  36 Q   — on Exhibit 349?  37 A   'Wii hloots' and his brother originated, like I said  38 before, from Tsihl Gwellii, from Git lax an dek', and  39 from time to time, like, they had remembered the vast  40 amount of many caribou that came through Tsihl Gwellii  41 area.  At the time there was hardly any meat  42 available, only fish available.  He had a great big  43 fish trap.  We call T'in.  44 MR. GRANT:  Do you have a spelling for that?  45 THE SPELLER:  T'in, T-apostrophe-i-n.  46 THE WITNESS:  And they had lots of fishing but no — nothing in  47 meat.  And they remember.  They know their territory MR.  THE  MR.  9  10 THE  11 MR.  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  2 0 THE  21 THE  22 THE  2 3 MR.  24  25  26  27  28  29  30 THE  31 MR.  32  33  34  35  3 6 MR.  37 THE  38 THE  3 9 MR.  40  41  42  43 THE  44 THE  45  46  47  4582  really good.  They remembered the caribou that comes  through Tsihl Gwellii.  So they set off from An gol  hon past Xsi win ixstaat.  They took the trail from  Tsim ts'itixs, we call that.  GRANT:  That's shown on the map.  Do you have it?  COURT:  No.  GRANT:  It's on Exhibit 349  downstream, and it's  black.  What is the name again?  It's the third triangle  the name is written across in  COURT  GRANT  Q  A  Tsim ts'itixs.  It's on the map as T-s-i-m-t-s-i-i-x.  They followed this trail to the -- go to their top end  of their territory coming from Woodcock, from the top  end, I'm talking about, Tsihl Gwelii, Cedar River as  known on the map.  In this general area they wanted to  go to get the caribou.  When they got there, the  caribou was -- wasn't too many caribou, but they  killed one caribou.  We call it Wijix.  SPELLER:  Wijix, W-i-j-i-x.  COURT:  What does that mean?  That means caribou, does it?  WITNESS:  Yes.  GRANT:  Q   That's the name for caribou.  A   They -- there's a specified place where they get  caribou here where they used to snare them and trap  them, and the place in the Tsihl Gwellii territory  where they go for this caribou is called Ts'imaakhl  gan k'ok'.  SPELLER:  398 on the word list.  GRANT:  Q   Can you just indicate where that is?  A   This is a pretty small map.  Q   There's a name here in the south end.  A   Yes.  There's a name on there.  GRANT:  It's where the name is located.  Can you see that?  COURT:  What's the name, please?  WITNESS:  Ts'imaakhl gan k'ok'.  GRANT:  You can see it.  Is just above the Gitsim Geelum  Lake, T-s-i-m-a-a-k-h-l-a-n-g-o-k-h-1 in black.  It's  the western -- the far south-western corner of that  inside the black boundary.  COURT:  Yes.  What is that, a river?  WITNESS:  It's a slope on the mountain like a bench.  The  mountain would come down and there's a bench, like a  ledge.  It's a ledge along the mountain, not a narrow  ledge but it's a forest area.  And Ts'imaakhl gan MR.  8 THE  9 THE  10 THE  11  12  13 MR.  14  15  16  17 THE  18 MR.  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34 THE  35 MR.  36 THE  37 MR.  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45 THE  4 6 THE  4 7 MR.  4583  k'ok' means the mouth of the snare.  That's where they  picked up this caribou, and they chased it down to the  flats just at the head of Git axsol, on the swamp area  just above Git axsol on the place they call Laalaxoo.  Laalaxoo in our language is swamp.  GRANT:  Well, Laalaxoo is right along that western boundary  there, my lord, just below Sand Lake on Exhibit 349.  COURT:  Yes.  WITNESS:  And that's where they killed this caribou.  COURT:  I'm sorry.  Was Sand Lake not -- is Sand Lake the  large lake in the lower left-hand corner?  I thought  Sand Lake was the one up at the top.  GRANT:  It's at the top, that's right.  And between the name  that was given before, Git axsol, and Sand Lake, the  one in that upper corner, you see along the boundary a  name Laalaxoo?  Yes.  COURT  GRANT  Q  A  Q  A  COURT  GRANT  COURT  GRANT  Q  A  COURT:  WITNESS  GRANT:  That's the name and the place the witness is now  referring to.  That's where they killed the caribou.  And when --  after they killed the caribou, they both shot at the  same time with their arrows and killed it, and when  they got there, they fought over this caribou and it  end up that Galaa 'uu killed 'Wii hloots' over the  caribou.  After that he was so grieved when he seen this  Gaak coming, the one I mentioned before in the adaawk,  this Gaak came, flew over him and sat right close and  started cawing.  That is a raven?  Started cawing.  And he got so grieved of what he did,  he composed a Limx oo'y.  It's a Dirge song.  I'm sorry.  Are you saying dread song or Dirge song?  Dirge.  What do you think, Mr. Grant?  Shall we adjourn?  I believe he's almost finished this and if we could  just bear this for a moment.  After he did that, like I said, he was so grieved.  He  cremated his brother there, 'Wii hloots', turned  around and went back home.  When I say "home", he went  back to An gol hon.  We could leave it there if you  want to.  Back to Woodcock?  Yes. 4584  1 Q   And where was his brother, 'Wii hloots', buried?  2 A  At this place at Laalaxoo.  3 Q   You're indicating a place on the far left or the far  4 western edge of the Tsihl Gwellii territory?  5 A   Yes.  6 THE COURT:  All right.  Thank you.  We'll adjourn until tomorrow  7 morning at 10 o'clock.  8 THE REGISTRAR:  Order in court.  Court will adjourn until 10:00  9 a.m.  10  11        (PROCEEDINGS ADJOURNED UNTIL MARCH 15, 1988 AT 10:00 A.M.)  12  13 I hereby certify the foregoing to be  14 a true and accurate transcript of the  15 proceedings transcribed to the best  16 of my skill and ability.  17  18  19  20 Kathie Tanaka, Official Reporter  21 UNITED REPORTING SERVICE LTD.  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47

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