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Delgamuukw Trial Transcripts

[Proceedings of the Supreme Court of British Columbia 1988-05-02] British Columbia. Supreme Court May 2, 1988

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 5614  Proceedings  1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  VANCOUVER, B.C,  May 2, 198 8  THE REGISTRAR:  Calling Delgamuukw versus Her Majesty the Queen.  THE COURT:  It might be useful for me to inform counsel that Mr.  McGillvray, the Registrar in Smithers, tells me that  Mr. Sterritt has been notified of the suggested date  for the hearing of his application, which I think is  tomorrow.  MR. RUSH:  I believe it's Wednesday.  THE COURT:  Wednesday?  But Mr. McGillvray has no indication  whether Mr. Sterritt finds that inconvenient or  otherwise, so that might be regarded as a tentative or  a doubtful date, but we'll see what happens.  I think  I should also tell counsel that after much agonizing I  have declined the invitation of the Attorney General  to appear at his conference in Ontario in I think it  was around June 20th, and counsel needn't trouble  themselves with that matter, we'll sit as scheduled.  Do counsel have any agreement about next week?  MR. RUSH:  I think I can state it so far as the Provincial  defendants go, I talked with Mr. Goldie this morning  and he advises that he's available on Monday and  Tuesday in the event that the witness moves over to  next week, so we are available.  COURT:  All right.  Mr. Macaulay?  MACAULAY:  We are available.  COURT:  Yes, all right.  Then we'll sit for at least two  days next week if it is necessary so to do.  All  right.  MACKENZIE:  My Lord, reference has been made to Wednesday  March -- May 4.  As your Lordship recalls, we've been  lining up motions to be heard on that day, and as your  Lordship indicated, the Sterritt petition was to be  heard on that day.  THE COURT:  Yes.  MR. MACKENZIE:  We have an amendment application -- sorry, a  Notice of Motion to amend the Statement of Defence to  be heard on that day, and the defendants have also  filed a Notice of Motion relating to the production of  counsel documents to be heard on that date.  THE COURT:  Yes.  We'll see how many of those we can dispose of  on Wednesday morning.  Ready to proceed, Mr. Adams?  MR. ADAMS:  My Lord, the next witness is Vernon Smith, and he's  present I believe.  THE  MR.  THE  MR. 5615  V. Smith (for Plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Adams  1 VERNON SMITH, a witness called on  2 behalf of the Plaintiffs, having been  3 duly sworn, testifies as follows:  4  5 THE REGISTRAR:  Would you state your name for the record,  6 please?  7 A  Vernon Smith.  8 THE REGISTRAR:  Thank you.  9 THE COURT:  Thank you, Mr. Smith.  Sit down if you wish.  10 THE REGISTRAR:  I caution the interpreter she's still under  11 oath.  12 THE COURT:  Mr. Adams.  13 MR. ADAMS:  My Lord, I have a small volume of materials to  14 distribute, documents relating to Mr. Smith's  15 anticipated evidence.  16 THE COURT:  Thank you.  17 MR. ADAMS:  My Lord, just before I begin my examination of Mr.  18 Smith, I would seek your Lordship's leave to say a few  19 words in explanation of what you are to hear from him  20 to locate him both geographically and in terms of some  21 of the evidence you have heard previously.  In his  22 evidence we will be dealing with western territories  23 which show on Exhibit 5, generally in the western area  24 here, and we'll be dealing with the Skeena downstream  25 from Andimaul, A-n-d-i-m-a-u-1, and extending  26 downstream along the Skeena to a place in English  27 called Dorreen, D-o-r-r-e-e-n, which is south of and  28 downstream of Cedarvale.  And then as far as who this  29 witness is and where he fits in, it will become  30 apparent through his evidence that he is a member of  31 the Lax skiik or Eagle Clan.  And Lax skiik is number  32 503 on the word list, and that he is both a hereditary  33 chief of his house and clan in Gitwangak and the chief  34 councillor of the Kitwancool Band.  And then as one  35 other reference point your Lordship may recall that  36 Art Matthews Jr. gave evidence, part of which is  37 contained in Exhibit 348, which I asked Madam  38 Registrar to pull this morning, not because Mr. Smith  39 will give evidence with respect to it, but because  40 he's identified there, and your Lordship may recall  41 that was a feast seating diagram that showed the Wolf  42 Clan and the Eagle Clan in Gitwangak sitting side by  43 side at the table.  And Mr. Matthews gave an  44 explanation of how that came to be, and the point is  45 simply that this is Vernon Smith, the Sakum Higookw  46 identified on that document as seated there.  47 THE COURT:  Is Mr. Smith a plaintiff? 5616  V. Smith (for Plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Adams  1  MR.  ADAMS  2  THE  COURT  3  MR.  ADAMS  4  Q  5  6  A  7  Q  8  9  10  A  11  12  Q  13  14  15  16  A  17  MR.  ADAMS  18  THE  COURT  19  MR.  ADAMS  20  THE  COURT  21  MR.  ADAMS  22  Q  23  24  A  25  Q  26  27  A  28  MR.  ADAMS  29  THE  COURT  30  MR.  ADAMS  31  THE  COURT  32  33  MR.  ADAMS  34  35  THE  COURT  36  MR.  ADAMS  37  Q  38  A  39  Q  40  A  41  Q  42  A  43  Q  44  A  45  Q  46  47  A  Mr. Smith is a named plaintiff.  Yes.  Mr. Smith, you hold the Gitksan chief's name Sakum  Higookw, is that right?  Yes.  And that is number 56 on the plaintiff's list.  And  could you tell the court what that name means in  English?  It means the person that starts something but --  energetically, but never finishes it off.  Okay.  Could I ask you to speak as loudly as you're  able to so that everyone in the court can hear you,  please.  And do you hold any other Gitksan chief's  name?  Liginiihla.  And Liginiihla is number 479 on the word list.  What was his chief's name number again, please?  For Sakum Higookw?  Yes.  It is 56 on the plaintiff's list.  And you're the head  chief of the house of Sakum Higookw?  Yes.  And you are the head chief of the Lax skiik or Eagle  Clan of Gitwangak?  Yes.  And —  Did you say Gitwangak?  That's right.  I think you said earlier that he was the head chief  of Kitwancool.  :  No.  He's the chief councillor of the Kitwancool  Band, but he's a hereditary chief from Gitwangak.  :  I see.  And you were born December 27th, 1944 at Gitanmaax?  Yes.  And your mother is Percilla Smith?  Yes.  And her maiden name was Tait, T-a-i-t?  Yes.  And does she hold a chief's name in your house?  Her chief's name is Sgayaan.  And that's number 480 on the word list, my Lord.  And  your father was Earnest Smith?  Yes. 5617  V. Smith (for Plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Adams  1  Q  2  A  3  Q  4  A  5  Q  6  A  7  Q  8  9  A  10  THE COURT  11  MR. ADAMS  12  THE COURT  13  MR. ADAMS  14  Q  15  16  A  17  Q  18  19  20  21  22  A  23  24  25  Q  26  27  A  28  Q  29  30  A  31  Q  32  A  33  Q  34  A  35  Q  36  A  37  Q  38  A  39  40  41  Q  42  A  43  Q  44  45  A  46  Q  47  A  And he's now deceased?  Yes.  And he died about 1972?  Yes.  And what if any chief's name did he hold?  Wiixa.  And that's number 81 on the plaintiff's list, my Lord.  And what does that name mean in English, please?  The big slave.  The name number again?  Is 81 on the plaintiff's list.  Thank you.  And that's a name in the Kitwancool Lax Gibuu or Wolf  Clan, is that right?  Yes.  All right.  Now, what I would like to ask you to do in  small bites is to take us through the highlights of  your life, and I would like to start you back as early  as you can remember.  How old were you and where were  you living?  Most the time I live in Kitwancool.  We travelled back  and forth to Gitwangak in the spring and summer and  the fall.  And how old were you living in Kitwancool in your  earliest recollection?  About two or three years old.  Okay.  And what seasons of year did you spend in  Kitwancool?  Wintertime, fall, winter and spring.  And where did you spend the summertime?  Gitwangak.  Okay.  Did you go to school in either place?  Both places, yes.  And what school was that?  Gitwangak Village and Kitwancool Village.  And how old were you when you started going to school?  Six or seven.  They wouldn't allow me to go to school  because I was too small for my age, they wouldn't  believe my age.  You started when you were six or seven?  Yes.  Okay.  Now, did you also during that time spend time  with your father?  Yes.  And what were you doing with him?  Went with him trapping by his -- by the south end of 561?  V. Smith (for Plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Adams  1 Kitwancool Lake.  He's got a sort of a farm there.  He  2 used to have cows and stuff, horses there before, but  3 after the -- just there was none.  4 Q   I'm sorry, after the --  5 A   The farm diminished I guess and they had no cows later  6 on, so just the farm there where we stayed to go  7 trapping.  8 Q   And was that on his territory?  9 A   Yes.  10 Q   And that territory then went with his name?  11 A   Yes.  12 Q   Was your father also a fisherman?  13 A   Yes.  14 Q   And did you ever go fishing with him?  15 A   Yes, commercial fishing.  16 Q   Where was that?  17 A  Around by -- we stayed in Old Carlyle Cannery before  18 they tear it down.  19 Q   And where was that exactly?  20 A  Mid Skeena -- mouth of the Skeena River.  21 Q   Um-hum.  Now, I want to bring you forward to the late  22 50's, when I understand you went to Edmonton to go to  23 school?  24 A   Yes.  25 Q   What school was that?  26 A   Edmonton Residential School.  We don't exactly go to  27 school there, we just stayed there, and we bussed down  28 about 12 miles to Jasper Place in Edmonton.  29 Q   Jasper Place was the name of the school?  30 A   Jasper Place is the name of a sort of a settlement,  31 like Richmond in Vancouver.  32 Q   Okay.  And when you're describing a residential  33 school, you're describing a residence, is that right?  34 A   Yes.  35 Q   Um-hum.  And who operated that residential school?  36 A   The federal government.  37 Q   Do you know which branch of the federal government?  3 8 A   No.  I don't know.  39 Q   Okay.  Was it Indian Affairs?  40 A   Yes.  It was operated by Indian Affairs.  41 Q   Okay.  Where was that residence compound in relation  42 to Edmonton city?  43 A   It's about 12 miles outside of Edmonton, due north  44 close to St. Albert.  45 Q   Okay.  And if you're in residence at the residential  46 school and going to school elsewhere, how do you get  47 between one and the other? 5619  V. Smith (for Plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Adams  1 A   School bus.  2 Q   Okay.  Were there residential schools, to your  3 knowledge, elsewhere in B.C.?  4 A   Yes.  5 Q   Can you tell me where?  6 A   There's some -- my friends went to Port Alberni,  7 Lytton, and there's one close to Fraser Lake  8 somewhere.  9 Q   Okay.  And the people you're saying your friends, were  10 those also people who were living in Kitwancool?  11 A   Yes.  12 Q   Did you have some say in which of those schools you  13 went to?  14 A   No, no.  15 Q   Do you recall how you found out that you were going to  16 Edmonton?  17 A   There's no place in our school for all the students  18 to -- there's only one room school in the village.  19 Q   Yes?  20 A  And there's no place, and they decided to ship us out.  21 Q   But can you say why Edmonton rather than Port Alberni  22 or Lytton, for instance?  23 A   I didn't have any choice.  24 Q   Okay.  And you said there was no school in the  25 village, there was no high school, is that right?  26 A   No high school, no.  27 Q   Was there a high school in Gitwangak?  2 8 A   No.  29 Q   Was there a high school in Hazelton?  30 A   Hazelton -- there was no public road to Hazelton there  31 for a few years in around that time, there's just a  32 ferry operating summertime.  There's no transportation  33 all the way to Hazelton in the wintertime except by  34 train.  35 Q   Was there a high school in Terrace, to your knowledge?  36 A   I believe so.  37 Q   And as far as you're aware, was that attended by any  38 Indian students?  39 A   I don't know at that time.  4 0 Q   Okay.  Do you know why you went to Edmonton rather  41 than to Terrace?  42 A   They didn't give me an offer, I was just shipped out.  43 Q   Now, when you first went to Edmonton, that was about  44 what year?  45 A  About '58 or '59.  46 Q   Okay.  And how long did you stay there on that  47 occasion? 5620  V. Smith (for Plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Adams  1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  A   From September to Christmas time.  Q   And what did -- what happened at Christmas time?  A  We stayed home.  The councillors kept us home, the  people, because of the harassment we had been getting  at the residence by other students.  MR. ADAMS:  Can you describe that harassment?  MR. MACKENZIE:  My Lord, is this relevant to the issues in this  lawsuit?  THE COURT:  Well, I'm not sure.  I doubt it, but I can't say at  this moment that it won't be.  Surely I'm not going to  litigate the issue of whether he was unfairly  harassed, am I?  MR. ADAMS:  No, my Lord, but it may at the end of the day go to  how people who have become chiefs have been treated  and what his condition and their experiences were, and  one of the issues that the defence has raised or seeks  to raise in this case is these same people acquiesced  in some sense in the treatment they received, and in  my submission it will be relevant to know what  treatment they received that led to that alleged  acquiescence.  THE COURT:  If I'm to pay any attention to this do I not have to  hear contrary evidence, if any?  MR. ADAMS:  It may be, if there is any.  THE COURT:  Well, I suppose the proliferation of issues is not a  ground for restricting evidence.  I think I have to  allow you to proceed, Mr. Adams.  I would like to know  the effect of the objection just to maintain some  reasonable limits on the number of issues we are to  litigate, but I'm not in a position at this moment to  say whether it might be relevant or might not, so I  think we must go ahead, if you wish.  MR.  ADAMS  Q  A  Mr. Smith, I was asking you about the nature of the  harassment that you referred to at the Edmonton  Residential School?  The food was -- it was insufficient for us to -- like  when you're young you're energetic and there's not  enough food there.  It's very limited, and sometimes  if the -- if there's milk on a table try and grab our  share first, and the students that are there way  before us think they have that priority to some of the  food that's put on the table, and then I got beat up a  couple of times by grabbing the milk first, and after  we eat, if there's time in the afternoon to -- we had  nothing to do we go and snare rabbits and raid the  nearby farm for wheat to eat with the rabbit, cook it 5621  V. Smith (for Plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Adams  1  2  Q  3  4  5  6  A  7  8  Q  9  10  A  11  12  Q  13  A  14  Q  15  A  16  17  Q  18  19  A  20  Q  21  A  22  23  24  25  Q  26  A  27  MR.  ADAMS  28  29  30  THE  COURT  31  32  33  34  MR.  ADAMS  35  THE  COURT  36  A  37  38  39  40  41  MR.  macke:  42  THE  COURT  43  MR.  ADAMS  44  45  46  THE  COURT  47  in the outdoor fire.  Now, to take you back for a moment to the time before  you went to Edmonton, while you were living in  Kitwancool had you attended church or Sunday School  there?  Yes.  I attended Sunday School and went to church in  the Pentecostal in Kitwancool.  Okay.  And then in Edmonton, what happened as far as  religious services?  They bussed us down to United Church or Anglican  Church on Sundays.  Were those the only choices?  Yes.  Did you have any choices between one and the other?  No.  If there's room in the bus I just get the bus  that -- the one that has lots of room.  Okay.  You said that the first time in Edmonton you  left at Christmas time of that first year?  Yes.  Were there people who left sooner than you?  Yes.  There's -- I got about four friends from  Gitwangak that took off the first month that they were  there and they hitchhiked on a box car, freight train.  They never went back since.  They never went back to Edmonton?  No.  :  Okay.  And then when you went back yourself at  Christmas what further information did you get about  the state of affairs at the school?  :  I mean when you went back at Christmas?  I'm sorry,  I don't known what you mean by that?  His evidence was  he went back from Edmonton to Gitwangak or Kitwancool,  I'm sorry.  :  Kitwancool.  :  Kitwancool, thank you.  I stayed home after Christmas and we took  correspondence in Gitwangak Valley, and a couple of my  friends that stayed behind wrote letters home to the  parents, and we found out that they had a riot about a  couple of months later.  JZIE:  That's hearsay, my Lord.  :  I'm not --  :  My Lord, I'm not trying to prove what happened in  the school in Mr. Smith's absence, I'm only trying to  illustrate the condition of his further activities.  :  And is the sum point did you make a decision to go  back to Edmonton? 5622  V. Smith (for Plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Adams  1 A   Yes.  Most of us went back later -- back in September.  2 MR. ADAMS:  3 Q   Of what year?  4 A  About early '70's, '70 or '71 maybe — about '71, I  5 guess.  6 THE COURT:  Do you mean the 60's?  You were there previously in  7 the 50's you told me?  8 A   No, no.  I was there in -- oh, yes, yes.  In 60's,  9 yeah, ten years I think.  10 MR. ADAMS:  11 Q   So you're talking about your going back in '61 or '62?  12 A   Yes.  13 Q   And how long did you stay that time?  14 A   Until '67, when I graduated.  15 Q   And what level had you attained when you graduated?  16 A   Twelve.  17 Q   Grade 12?  18 A   Yes.  19 Q   Okay.  And were you in Edmonton all-year round through  20 those years when you were attending the residential  21 school?  22 A   No.  I stayed at the residential school until I was  23 grade 11, and I got boarded out to one of the private  24 homes in grade 12.  25 Q   What about in the summertime, did you stay in  2 6 Edmonton?  27 A   No.  I go all the way to Rupert to go commercial  28 fishing in the summertime.  29 Q   And then your longer stay in Edmonton, the years from  30 '61 or '2 to '67, were there other Gitksan students  31 there in Edmonton with you?  32 A   Yes.  There's some from Gitwangak, Kispiox, Hazelton  33 and some from Nass Valley and some from Haida, north  34 of Edmonton.  35 Q   Okay.  And there were other people from Kitwancool,  36 were there?  37 A   Yes.  38 Q   Okay.  Now, quite apart from how you found out about  39 conditions in the school, when you went back were  40 things better?  41 A   Yes.  After the riot the newsmen arrived and they made  42 everything public, and the conditions were improved  43 after the riot.  44 Q   Okay.  Thinking of both your experiences in Edmonton,  45 was there a rule in place at that school regarding  46 language?  47 A   Yes.  We can't speak our own native tongue, we have to 5623  V. Smith (for Plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Adams  1  2  Q  3  A  4  5  6  Q  7  A  8  THE COURT  9  10  11  12  A  13  MR. ADAMS  14  Q  15  A  16  Q  17  A  18  Q  19  20  A  21  Q  22  23  A  24  Q  25  26  A  27  28  29  30  31  32  Q  33  A  34  35  36  37  38  39  Q  40  41  A  42  Q  43  A  44  Q  45  46  A  47  Q  speak English all the time.  And why was that?  I really don't know why they wanted us to speak  English. You get penalized if you speak in our  tongue.  Was the rule ever explained to you?  No.  :  I'm not sure what the rule was.  Was the rule that  you spoke English, or was the rule that you must not  speak your native tongue, or was it a combination of  both?  The rule was you must not speak the native tongue.  When were you first exposed to English?  When I went to school, first started going to school.  And you said that was when you were six or seven?  Yes.  Okay.  And before and after that time what was the  language used in your home?  Gitksan language.  Um-hum.  And in your present dealings today with your  mother and your sisters what language do you use?  Gitksan language.  And what were the consequences of breaching that rule  in Edmonton about using Indian languages?  Our privileges were taken away, and if it's in the  public school we stay during lunch-hour or we miss the  bus, stay in after school and we missed the bus and  have to walk 12 miles to get back to the residence.  If it's in the residence we are -- our privileges are  taken away.  What kind of privileges would those be?  Like weekends we can't leave the premises to go to St.  Albert or go downtown if we have spending money.  If  that's not taken away, we are confined to our  dormitory or give us extra chores like washing dishes  or scrubbing and washing the floor, different kinds of  stuff.  Can you say roughly when there was a high school  available as near as Gitwangak?  Around '70, I guess.  Around 1970?  Yes.  I'm not too sure what year.  And at that point did people stop going to the  Edmonton Residential School?  Yes.  And to what grade did the school in Gitwangak go? 5624  V. Smith (for Plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Adams  1 A   Grade 11, but then they moved it down to grade 10 for  2 the last two years now.  3 Q   Is it only to 10 now?  4 A   Yes.  5 Q   Where do people go for grade 11 and grade 12?  6 A  Most of them go to Hazelton.  7 Q   And are there other places?  8 A   If the parents could afford it they sent there  9 students to Terrace or wherever they choose.  10 Q   When you finish -- graduated in Edmonton did you come  11 back to Kitwancool?  12 A   Yes.  13 Q   And what did you do then as far as schooling?  14 A   I -- I went logging for one or two years and I went  15 back to Victoria to go to college in Camosun College.  16 Q   And what did you study there?  17 A  Math, english, physics and social studies, history.  18 Q   Okay.  And did you have some purpose in mind in  19 beginning those studies?  20 A  When I was young I usually watch the jet planes that  21 go by, and I figured there's something to get up  22 there, so that's what keeps driving me to go to  23 school.  Nobody -- I didn't have anybody pushing me  24 from behind to tell me to stay in school, and that was  25 one of my objectives, is to be one of the jet pilots.  26 Q   Did you come back from Victoria after that year at  27 Camosun College?  28 A   Yes.  2 9 Q   And did you then take some part in the Band Council  30 activities at Kitwancool?  31 A   Yes.  I go to some of their meetings and happened to  32 be an election year when I came back and I got  33 nominated as councillor, and I won the election as one  34 of the councillors.  35 Q   And you were elected?  36 A   Yes.  37 Q   And how long did you serve as a councillor in  38 Kitwancool?  39 A  About four years as a councillor, and then it's two  40 terms, then I got nominated as a chief, chief for the  41 next term, the third term I was in, and then I've been  42 elected as chief councillor.  43 Q   And are you presently the chief councillor of  44 Kitwancool?  45 A   Yes.  I'm still the chief councillor for Kitwancool.  4 6 Q   Okay.  Now, you mentioned a moment ago that you had  47 spent some time logging.  Can you tell the court about 5625  V. Smith (for Plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Adams  1 your time in the logging industry?  2 A   I logged for an outfit called Bojack Logging, and they  3 had their outfit at Mile 32, their camp.  4 Q   And just to interrupt you for a moment, where do you  5 count Mile 32 from, what is it 32 miles from?  6 A   From Gitwangak.  7 Q   And on which road?  8 A   37.  9 Q   Highway 37?  10 A   Yes.  Right -- right from Highway 16, I believe, and  11 it goes onto Highway 37.  12 Q   And at what mile on that highway is Kitwancool  13 Village?  14 A   In those days they say it's mile 14 and a half or 15,  15 Kitwancool.  16 Q   So where -- the place you're talking about logging is  17 north of Kitwancool Village?  18 A   Yes.  19 Q   Okay.  And how long did you work for Bojack?  20 A  About three or four years, just in the wintertime.  21 Q   And what were you doing?  22 A   I was setting chokers or bucking.  23 Q   And did you -- when that finished did you carry on  24 doing logging work?  25 A   I went -- I got a job in -- down in the village in  26 Gitwangak, and for one winter and then the other  27 winter I got a job for a sawmill in Hobenshield  28 Brothers in Kitwanga Valley.  29 Q   Do you recall what years those were, first for the  30 Gitwangak Village and then for Hobenshield?  31 A   '73-'74 winter in Gitwangak Village, and the Kitwanga  32 is in the winter of '74-'75.  33 Q   When you started working with Bojack, was that a new  34 area for logging?  35 A   Yes.  36 Q   And were you party to meetings before that logging  37 started that concerned when and whether and how that  38 would take place?  39 A   I was in some of the villages in the later part of the  40 negotiation with the Province or CANCEL.  41 Q   Who was at those meetings, to your recollection?  42 A   There's hereditary chiefs with their elected  43 councillors.  44 Q   Both hereditary chiefs and elected councillors?  45 A   Yes.  4 6 Q   And who else?  47 A   The CANCEL, the representatives from Canadian 5626  V. Smith (for Plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Adams  1  2  Q  3  4  A  5  Q  6  7  A  8  MR.  ADAMS  9  10  11  12  THE  COURT  13  14  15  A  16  THE  COURT  17  18  A  19  THE  COURT  20  21  A  22  THE  COURT  23  MR.  ADAMS  24  Q  25  A  26  Q  27  28  A  29  30  31  32  33  Q  34  35  36  A  37  38  39  40  Q  41  A  42  Q  43  44  A  45  Q  46  A  47  Q  Cellulose.  Okay.  And were there as well representatives of the  provincial government?  I can't recall.  Okay.  And around what years are you talking about  those meetings beginning?  Late part of the 60's.  :  And what do you -- do you recall the discussions --  what do you recall of the discussions taking place  between hereditary chiefs and band councillors and  representatives of Canadian Cellulose.  :  I'm sorry, Mr. Adams, are you saying that these  meetings you're talking about now took place before  you went back to Edmonton?  After I came back from Edmonton.  I came back in '67.  :  I'm wondering about that, because I don't think you  went back to Edmonton until the early '70's, did you?  No.  I graduated in '67.  :  Oh, yes, I'm sorry.  I made the same mistake you  did.  Late 60's after you came back from school?  Yes.  :  Thank you.  And after you came back from Victoria, is that right?  Yes.  Okay.  I'm sorry, what do you recall of the content of  those meetings?  The hereditary chiefs don't really want any activities  on their -- on their territory, so the series of  meetings I guess they convinced them that it's going  to be lots of jobs for the local people, and through  the convention they let the logging go through.  Were there people already based in Kitwancool Village  doing logging at that time before these meetings took  place?  Yes.  Kitwancool people, almost each one of them were  subcontracting for Bell Pole Company, and there's -- I  think there's over 20 subcontractors, different little  outfits.  Based in Kitwancool Village?  Yes.  And did that change after Canadian Cellulose got  permission to log?  Yes.  North of Kitwancool?  Yes.  How did it change? 5627  V. Smith (for Plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Adams  1 A Our own ones, the logging started in Kitwancool  2 territory, they -- the subcontractors logged -- all of  3 them lost their quotas, and right now after a few  4 years has passed there's nobody working there.  5 Q And where were the companies that you ended up working  6 for based, where was Bojack based?  7 A Mile 32.  8 Q Where were its operations, not its logging there, but  9 where was that company from?  10 A Bojack, the main man that spearheaded Bojack Company  11 was Dr. Bondley in Smithers.  12 Q What was his name, please?  13 A Dr. Bondley.  I don't know how to spell his last name.  14 Q Is it like Bondley?  15 A Bondley, B-o-n-d-l-e-y, I think.  16 Q Okay.  And apart from your time spent logging, have  17 you been involved in the fishing industry in B.C.?  18 A Yes.  19 Q And in what way have you been involved in fishing?  20 A Commercial fishing.  21 Q When did you first start commercial fishing?  22 A About '64 or '65.  23 Q Um-hum.  Was that in the summertime while you were  24 otherwise going to school in Edmonton?  25 A Yes.  26 Q Okay.  And where did you fish?  27 A The mouth of Skeena River.  28 Q Okay.  Were you on a boat that you owned or one that  29 you rented?  30 A I rented a boat from Canadian Fish.  31 Q And is that still the case today?  32 A No.  We -- the B.C. Packers buy out Canadian Fish a  33 few years ago, and I'm still fishing for B.C. Packers.  34 Q Do you not have a boat of your own?  35 A Yes.  B.C. Packers sold all the gill-netters to  36 Northern Native Corporation, and I in turn bought a  37 boat from Northern Native Corporation.  38 Q And is that the boat you fish on now?  39 A Yes.  40 Q Okay.  Are you also involved in the herring fishery at  41 the coast?  42 A Yes.  43 Q What season of the year is that?  44 A Spring, and we just finished last week of March.  45 Q And do you also have work that involves driving the  46 school bus?  47 A Yes. 5628  V. Smith (for Plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Adams  1  Q  2  A  3  4  Q  5  6  A  7  Q  8  A  9  Q  10  A  11  Q  12  A  13  14  Q  15  A  16  17  Q  18  A  19  20  21  Q  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  A  29  Q  30  31  A  32  MR. ADAMS  33  34  THE TRANS  35  MR. ADAMS  36  Q  37  38  39  A  40  Q  41  42  43  A  44  Q  45  46  47  Can you describe that, please?  Just a part-time bus driver driving between Kitwancool  and Kitwanga Valley.  And who are -- who's in the school bus, who are you  moving?  Our students from Kitwancool.  To where?  To Kitwanga Valley Elementary Secondary School.  And have you also had occasion to pick mushrooms?  Yes.  Can you explain the circumstances of that?  My first experience was last September, picking  mushrooms.  September of 1987?  '87, yes.  I've never picked mushrooms before that  time.  What got you started?  There's quite a few mushroom pickers, and they made it  so interesting sounding, so interesting, so I went out  and started picking mushrooms.  Now, my Lord, in the blue folder that I handed up this  morning the -- this is not tabbed because there are so  few items here, but the first pocket is a genealogy  dated May 2nd, '88.  And I will be referring to that  shortly.  Mr. Smith, did you have an opportunity to  look over a genealogy that was dated the 21st of  January, 1988?  Yes.  And that was something that you made some additions  and corrections to?  Yes.  With Chief D'ewelasxw.  :  D'ewelasxw, my Lord, is on the plaintiff's list.  I'm not sure what number.  uATOR:  63.  63 on the plaintiff's list, thank you.  And have those  additions and corrections been incorporated into a  revised genealogy?  Yes.  Could the witness be shown the first pocket in that  blue folder, please.  Mr. Smith, have you had an  opportunity to look over that revised genealogy?  Yes.  And by all means take a few moments to be sure of  that.  Now, to the best of your knowledge, does that  revised genealogy dated May 2nd, 1988 correctly show  the members of your house and your clan, their 5629  V. Smith (for Plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Adams  1 spouses, and the relationships among them?  2 A   Yes.  3 MR. ADAMS:  My Lord, I would ask that that be marked as the next  4 exhibit, please.  5 THE COURT:  Yes.  6 THE REGISTRAR:  Exhibit 425.  7 THE COURT:  Thank you.  8  9 EXHIBIT 425 - Genealogy of Sakum Higookw - Vernon  10 Smith  11  12 MR. MACAULAY:  So I know, my Lord, there is — I take it the  13 evidence is this is a house genealogy, one house in  14 the clan, is that right?  15 THE COURT:  Ask Mr. Adams if that was his question.  16 MR. ADAMS:  The question was house and clan, and I think I will  17 be able to clarify for my friend exactly how those fit  18 together for this witness as his evidence proceeds.  19 MR. MACAULAY:  Well, we have -- in every case we have a house  20 and the clan is also identified.  21 THE COURT:  Yes.  22 MR. MACAULAY:  But the way the question was put in this case it  23 sounded as if it was more than a house in one of the  24 clans, but house and clan.  That's the reason for my  25 question.  26 THE COURT:  Well, as in all these genealogies of course I see  27 that, if I've read it correctly, the witness was  28 fortunate to marry Jackie Bratten, and she would not  29 be in the same house, but the genealogy shows --  30 MR. MACAULAY:  She wouldn't be in the same clan either.  31 THE COURT:  No.  So it's more than just the house and clan.  32 MR. MACAULAY:  And their wives, yes.  Well —  33 THE COURT:  It's part family, part house included in the clan, I  34 suppose.  35 MR. MACAULAY:  That's not quite what I was getting at, but —  36 THE COURT:  All right.  Well, I'll be glad to hear you further,  37 Mr. Macaulay, if your friend's questions do not  38 satisfy your query in this regard.  39 MR. ADAMS:  My Lord, I think that it will be clear in the  40 evidence, but for the court's advice and my friend, it  41 will be clear that in this case the clan and the house  42 are coterminous.  43 THE COURT:  There are more than just the members of the house  44 and clan members in the genealogy.  45 MR. ADAMS:  There are spouses as well, and that was the witness'  4 6 evidence.  47 THE COURT:  And children I gather? 5630  V. Smith (for Plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Adams  1  MR.  ADAMS  2  3  THE  COURT  4  MR.  ADAMS  5  6  THE  COURT  7  MR.  ADAMS  8  Q  9  10  11  A  12  Q  13  A  14  Q  15  16  17  A  18  Q  19  A  20  Q  21  A  22  Q  23  A  24  Q  25  26  27  A  28  Q  29  30  A  31  Q  32  A  33  Q  34  35  A  36  Q  37  A  38  MR.  ADAMS  39  40  41  42  43  THE  TRANS  44  MR.  ADAMS  45  Q  46  47  A  :  The children who are shown on the genealogy, my  Lord, will be members of the house and the clan.  :  All right.  :  Those who are children that aren't members of the  house and clan aren't shown.  :  All right, thank you.  Mr. Smith, could I draw your attention to that first  page of that genealogy, please, and in the centre  towards the right-hand side we find Percilla Tait.  Yes.  Okay.  And that's your mother, is it?  Yes.  Okay.  And you've testified earlier this morning that  she held the name Sgayaan in the House of Sakum  Higookw?  Yes.  And do you recall who held that name before she did?  I believe David Well's mother, Sakum Higookw's mother  Do you recall what her name was.  Yes -- no.  Would that have been Maggie Wells?  I think so, yes.  Could I turn your attention to page 8 of  genealogy.  Maybe first to 7 and then to  7 at the top you will see David Wells?  Yes.  And then on 8, near the top on the left is shown  Maggie Wells?  Yes.  That's the person you're referring to, is it?  Yes.  Okay.  And is Sgayaan, your mother's name, an  important chief's name in your house?  Yes.  And are there other principal chiefs in that house?  D'ewelasxw, Giila'wa and Simadiiks.  :  Okay.  Giila'wa, my Lord, is number 9 on the  plaintiff's list, and Simadiiks is number 58 on the  plaintiff's list.  And I think we already have  D'ewelasxw as well, but I don't recall the number, I'm  sorry.  uATOR:  63.  63 on the plaintiff's list.  Mr. Smith, who currently  holds the name D'ewelasxw?  Allen Johnson.  that  8, because on 5631  V. Smith (for Plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Adams  1 Q   Can I direct your attention to page 14 of the  2 genealogy, please.  3 A  And beginning 13 and 14 I think you see the  4 relationship.  The person who's shown there as the son  5 of Elsie Mulwain and Ambrose Harris as Allen Johnson,  6 is that the person you're referring to?  7 A   Yes.  8 Q   Okay.  And who currently holds the name Giila'wa in  9 your house?  10 A   Peter Turley.  11 Q   Okay.  And if you look at page 14 of the genealogy, on  12 the right-hand side the son of Charlie Turley and Kate  13 Brown is identified as Peter Turley.  Is that the  14 person you're speaking of?  15 A   Yes.  16 Q   Okay.  And who currently holds the name Simadiiks in  17 your house?  18 A   Calvin Hyzimes.  19 Q   And if you look at the page at page 3 of the  20 genealogy, on the far left centre of that page the  21 person who's shown as the son of Earnest Hyzims and  22 Esther Brown, is that the person you're referring to?  23 A   Yes.  24 Q   Okay.  And to come back to the name Giila'wa, as  25 you've given evidence, is presently held by Peter  26 Turley.  What does Giila'wa mean in English?  27 A   It means a person that sits alone in the feast house.  28 He's separated from the rest of the clan.  2 9 Q   And do you know where that name comes from?  30 A  Well, in the old history the name generated from one  31 of the persons that he married, one of his own  32 relatives, and through that he was -- he was ashamed  33 of what he did, so he sat alone in the feast.  That's  34 what Giila'wa means.  35 Q   Why was it a matter of shame to marry his own  36 relative?  37 A   Because it's not a tradition to marry your own  38 relative.  39 Q   Is it against the law?  40 A   Yes.  41 Q   And where does the present holder of the name Giila'wa  42 sit in the feast?  43 A   He's -- he's at around the fifth from the end.  44 Q   So he no longer sits alone?  45 A   No, no.  46 Q   And your wife is Jackie Smith, and her name before she  47 was married was Jackie Bratten? 5632  V. Smith (for Plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Adams  1  A  2  Q  3  A  4  MR.  ADAMS  5  6  THE  TRANS  7  MR.  ADAMS  8  Q  9  A  10  Q  11  A  12  Q  13  A  14  Q  15  A  16  Q  17  A  18  Q  19  A  20  Q  21  A  22  Q  23  A  24  25  Q  26  A  27  Q  28  29  A  30  Q  31  32  33  A  34  Q  35  A  36  37  38  39  THE  COURT  40  A  41  MR.  ADAMS  42  THE  COURT  43  A  44  45  46  MR.  ADAMS  47  Q  Yes.  What house is she from?  Luus, from Kispiox.  :  May I have the number for Luus on the plaintiff's  list, please.  uATOR:  42.  42 on the plaintiff's list?  And what clan is that?  Wolf.  That's Lax Gibuu?  Yes.  And do you have children?  Yes.  How many living now?  Three.  And who are they?  Vernon Jr., Joey, and I forgot my daughter's name.  Suzette?  Suzette, yes.  And did you at one time have other children?  Yes.  And what happened to them?  They had an accident in 1974, February 20th, Rubin and  Marie plus two of my nephews in a fire accident.  And they were killed?  Yes.  We've identified David Wells from this genealogy.  Did  he at one time hold the name Sakum Higookw?  Yes.  And while he was still living did you have a  discussion with him about the succession to that name  and others in your house?  Yes.  And what did he tell you?  He was -- we were having one of our dinners at Ritchie  when he talked to my mother about we were sitting  around the fire, and he was saying that he was going  to take Liginiihla in one of the feast, and --  :  I'm sorry, I didn't get that.  He was going to take?  Liginiihla.  :  That's 479 on the word list, my Lord.  :  Yes.  And that he was going to give Sakum Higookw to Alfred  Mulwain or myself.  That is just before he passed on.  We never did go back there that year.  You said that that meeting was at Ritchie.  Where is 5633  V. Smith (for Plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Adams  1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  MR.  THE  THE  MR.  A  Q  A  ADAMS  COURT  A  COURT  ADAMS  Q  A  Q  A  Q  Ritchie?  At Gway tseelixit, about 20 miles downstream from  Gitwangak.  On the Skeena?  Yes.  :  Gway tseelixit, my Lord, is number 1103 on the word  list.  :  That's Ritchie, is it?  Yes.  :  Thank you.  I'm not too sure.  A  When did David Wells die?  About '72, '70.  I think '71,  Around 1970?  Yes.  Early '70's, yes.  And what happened to the names that he had discussed  with you or with your mother?  Alfred Mulwain and I, we went from village to village  after we got his remains back from Seattle and we went  on what you call teets, that's going from one village  to another village to invite different leading chiefs  from each village.  Can I just stop you there for one moment and get a  spelling for that.  I'm sure we've had it before.  I don't think we've had it since the evidence of  Mary Mackenzie.  TRANSLATOR:  It's T-e-e-t-s .  COURT:  T-e-e-t-s, thank you.  ADAMS:  Q  MR. ADAMS  THE COURT  THE  THE  MR.  MR.  THE  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  ADAMS  COURT  And as a consequence of you and Alfred Mulwain giving  invitations to those chiefs what happened?  We had a feast right after the burial and then we -- I  took Liginiihla and Alfred Mulwain took Sakum Higookw  in front of all the chiefs that we invited.  That was at a feast?  Yes.  And were you obliged to contribute money to that  feast?  Yes.  We both -- both of us spent about between 7,  $8,000 each on that feast.  Each of you spent between 7 and $8,000?  Yes.  And did you have help in raising that money?  Just from our wilksiwitxw, we call wilksiwitxw, our  father's side of the family.  And that's 377 on the word list, my Lord.  Um-hum. 5634  V. Smith (for Plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Adams  1  A  2  3  MR. ADAMS  4  Q  5  A  6  7  8  Q  9  A  10  11  12  Q  13  14  A  15  16  17  Q  18  A  19  Q  20  21  A  22  Q  23  A  24  Q  25  A  26  27  Q  28  A  29  Q  30  31  A  32  33  34  35  36  Q  37  38  A  39  40  41  Q  42  A  43  44  45  46  47  It's not really help.  They call it -- it's like a  loan, we have to pay them back later on.  Yes?  Our wilksiwitxw that give us money here we have to pay  out.  Later on in the future feast we try and pay it  back.  Okay.  And have you done that?  No.  My book, I keep asking them who gave me some  money but they never said anything, but my book that I  had all my help from burn in 1974 with the kids.  Why was it necessary to bring David Wells' body back  from Seattle, where I gather he died?  Because he's a -- it's -- he's our leading chief and  we have to -- it's our tradition to bring the remains  back to the original hometown.  Was that part of your obligation, to arrange for that?  Yes.  Now, you've said that after David Wells' death you  took Liginiihla and Alfred Mulwain took Sakum Higookw?  Yes.  What became of Alfred Mulwain?  He only stayed alive for a couple of years after that.  And what happened to him?  He went missing in Gwax tseelixit, in Ritchie, with  both son-in-laws.  Okay.  And has his body been found?  No.  And has there, to your knowledge, been a feast in  connection with his death?  No.  We've had different deaths in the time span that  he disappeared, like my father died and then the --  the accident in '74 and then my brother died.  Everything happened all at once and never did have  formal feast for him.  And the name Sakum Higookw that Alfred Mulwain was  holding when he disappeared, what happened to it?  Through the time that we have in a feast the --  everytime I host a feast the other chiefs from  different villages endorsed me as Sakum Higookw.  And what form did that endorsation take?  Well, when -- after each feast is over the host  usually stands up to thank the other chiefs for being  there, thank them for the support.  The chiefs in turn  stood up.  The first chief that speaks is usually from  the same village as the host, and it goes outside the  village, and they keep coming back saying Sakum 5635  V. Smith (for Plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Adams  1  2  3  4  Q  5  6  A  7  Q  8  9  A  10  Q  11  12  13  A  14  Q  15  A  16  Q  17  A  18  Q  19  A  20  Q  21  A  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  Q  30  A  31  32  Q  33  34  A  35  36  37  Q  38  39  A  40  41  42  43  Q  44  A  45  MR. ADAMS  46  47  THE COURT  Higookw, the chief Sakum Higookw, and then it goes  down to chief, their second chief, and so on.  From  the top it goes down, like they make a response.  When you go to a feast today are you seated in Sakum  Higookw's seat?  Yes.  And for how long has that been true; when's the first  time you were seated in Sakum Higookw's place?  Not very long after Alfred disappeared.  And you've talked about being addressed by other  chiefs as Sakum Higookw in speeches in the feast.  When's the first time you remember that taking place?  Around '74, when my children died.  And was that at the funeral feast for your children?  Yes.  And who hosted that feast?  Lax skiik combined with Lax Gibuu of Gitwangak.  Lax skiik are the Eagles?  Yes.  And do you recall your mother speaking at that feast?  Yes.  After the late Wallace Morgan speaks she spoke  up after him, because Wallace Morgan is Axta Hiikw,  Chief Axta Hiikw at that time.  Kitwangak --  Kitwangak, Lax Gibuu, and Lax skiik are the same --  almost the same tribe, but they were -- in the old  days both Lax Gibuu and Lax skiik, they were taken by  some kind of disease, they were almost wiped out, so  both of them stood together.  Okay.  And it's still the same today, they stay together in  the feast.  After your mother spoke were there other chiefs who  replied to what she had to say?  Yes.  The host chiefs, like we had the -- the feast in  Kitwancool at that time, and the first person that  stood up to respond was Chief Wiixa of Lax Gibuu.  Wiixa is 81 on the plaintiff's list.  And what was the  English name of the person holding Wiixa at that time?  Walter Derrick.  And then there -- the other tribe,  the Liginiihla, the leading chief, stood up, and it  was Xamlaxyeltxw.  After Wiixa spoke Xamlaxyeltxw  stood up and made a speech.  You say the leading chief?  Yes, of the Frog Clan, Solomon Marsden.  :  And Solomon Marsden's chief's name is 85 on the  plaintiff's list.  :  Thank you. 5636  V. Smith (for Plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Adams  1  MR. ADAMS  2  Q  3  A  4  Q  5  A  6  MR. ADAMS  7  THE COURT  8  MR. ADAMS  9  Q  10  11  A  12  Q  13  A  14  Q  15  A  16  17  Q  18  A  19  Q  20  A  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  Q  37  A  38  Q  39  A  40  41  42  Q  43  44  A  45  46  47  Do you recall other chiefs who spoke?  I know Lelt was Fred Johnson of Gitwangak.  And from what clan is Fred Johnson?  Ganada.  Lelt, my Lord, is 40 on the plaintiff's list.  Thank you.  And when those chiefs spoke did they address you as  Sakum Higookw?  Yes.  Is there more required for you to fullfill that name?  Yes.  And what's required of you still?  I have to put up a stone, a head stone, or put up a  totem pole to endorse my name.  Who will the stone be for?  Sakum Higookw, Alfred Mulwain.  And what is the state of that process?  Well, in -- it takes lots of -- now it takes a lot of  dollars to move anything in our tradition.  As soon as  you decide to -- as soon as you make a decision you  call -- you call your relatives and then you call your  own chief from your own clan, and you feed them, you  welcome them into your home and you tell them of your  plan, and that takes a few dollars to do that.  And  then after you tell them your plan, then you go out  and invite the other chiefs from the other clan, and  we use public building for that, and you tell the  public of your -- of your future plans, what you're  going to do, and then we -- I -- I point out my  wilksiwitxw who's going to carve the pole or who's  going to restore the pole that's on the ground.  In  this case I'm going to use a pole to endorse my name  as Sakum Higookw to strengthen it.  Is that a pole that's in existence now?  Yes.  And where is that?  In Gitwangak.  It fell down last spring -- last fall,  I think close to beside the river there, beside the  road.  And will that be put up in the same form as it fell  down, or is there work to be done on it?  There's a little bit of work to be done on it.  That's  why I -- I elected one of my wilksiwitxw, Axmiinmukw  to look at it to see what needs to be done before  the -- before we raise the pole. 5637  V. Smith (for Plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Adams  1 MR. ADAMS:  May I just stop you for a second.  Can we get a  2 spelling for Axmiinmukw.  3 THE TRANSLATOR:  A-x, underlined, m-i-i-n-m-u-k-w.  4 THE COURT:  Thank you.  5 MR. ADAMS:  6 Q   And what's the English name of that person?  7 A   Lawson Grey.  8 THE COURT:  Lawson Grey?  9 A   Yes.  10 THE COURT:  All right.  Shall we take the morning adjournment,  11 Mr. Adams, please?  12 THE REGISTRAR:  Order in court.  13  14 (PROCEEDINGS ADJOURNED AT 11:15)  15  16 I hereby certify the foregoing to be  17 a true and accurate transcript of the  18 proceedings herein transcribed to the  19 best of my skill and ability  20  21  22  23  24 Graham D. Parker  25 Official Reporter  26 United Reporting Service Ltd.  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47 563?  V. Smith (for Plaintiffs)  In Chief by Mr. Adams  1 (PROCEEDINGS RESUMED PURSUANT TO MORNING RECESS)  2  3 THE REGISTRAR:  Order in court.  4 THE COURT:  Mr. Adams.  5 EXAMINATION IN CHIEF BY MR. ADAMS:  6 Q    Mr. Smith, I wanted to go back for a second and  7 clear one thing up.  When you were talking about the  8 funeral feast for your children and your nephew in  9 1974, I think you said that that feast was hosted by  10 the Lax skiik, by the Eagles?  11 A    Yes.  12 Q    But your children were from Lax Gibuu?  13 A    Yes.  14 Q    Wolf Clan?  15 A    Yes.  16 Q    Why was the feast hosted by the Eagles?  17 A    We have the funeral on the same day as my nephew, my  18 nephew is Lax skiik.  In that fire accident we lost  19 everything that we ever had and I still owe quite a  20 bit of dollars in what I put into the house.  And  21 without going into any more expenses, we decided to  22 host the feast with the Lax Gibuu because Lax Gibuu  23 and Lax skiik help each other in Gitwangak.  And my  24 wife happens to be a Lax Gibuu, so it didn't really  25 make much difference us hosting the feast with the Lax  2 6 Gibuu.  27 Q    Now, at the break you were in the midst of  28 describing what was involved in completing your name  29 Sakum Higookw?  30 A    Yes.  31 Q    And you have begun to talk about making arrangements  32 with your father's side, with Wilksiwitxw for the  33 restoration of Sakum Higookw's pole which was on the  34 ground in Gitwangak?  35 A    Yes.  36 Q    Those arrangements on your father's side, were those  37 made in a feast?  38 A    Yes.  39 Q    And when was that?  40 A    That was just before Christmas in '87.  41 Q    Just this past winter?  42 A    Yes.  43 Q    And where was that?  44 A    In Gitwangak church army hall.  45 Q    And what decisions were made coming out of that  46 feast?  47 A   After we give the -- like in a tradition we supposed 5639  V. Smith (for Plaintiffs)  In Chief by Mr. Adams  1 to give an axe to Wilksiwitxw to carve the totem pole  2 out to use.  And today we use dollars as a gift for  3 Wilksiwitxw to buy whatever he needs to carve the pole  4 to get him started.  5 Q    And is it your expectation that Lawson Grey himself  6 would do the carving or the restoration work or that  7 he would arrange to have someone do that?  8 A    It is up to him to arrange for somebody to do that  9 if he can't carve the pole himself.  10 Q    Now, did you have to make a choice between restoring  11 the pole that had fallen and starting a new one?  12 A    Yes.  13 Q    And what series of events is involved if you had  14 made the decision to start a new one?  15 A    It is going to run into a few grand if I start a new  16 one because if my Wilksiwitw go out into the forest  17 and look for a pole that would fit the size of the  18 totem pole that I would like him to carve, it would  19 take him a few days to look for one particular pole, a  20 cedar pole.  And once he found the cedar pole and  21 reports back -- reports back to me, then we have to  22 set up another feast celebrating the tree that went  23 down.  And then after he -- when you move that pole  24 out of its present location, every time the pole moves  25 there is a gathering.  And we feed the people every  26 time we move the pole until it gets to its location.  27 And it takes a series of feasts in order to do that  28 and it runs into a few grand by the time it's over.  29 Q    The feast that was held in late 1987, according to  30 your evidence that involved giving directions to  31 Lawson Grey, did you have to contribute to that feast?  32 A    Yes.  33 Q    And what did you contribute?  34 A    I put in -- I spent about $1,000 on that one.  35 Q    And where, in your experience, both in the past and  36 today, do the resource's money come from to make those  37 contributions in the feast?  38 A    Right now I am unemployed.  I went herring fishing  39 last month and then I will be going commercial fishing  40 this summer.  And there is hardly any job in -- on our  41 own resources.  It is very limited now.  Hardly  42 anybody gets a job.  43 Q    Has that always been the case that people did  44 commercial fishing or something else for pay or wages  45 to get the money to make feast contributions?  46 A    Yes.  And in the old days you live off your own  47 resources, live off -- inside your own territory's 5640  V. Smith (for Plaintiffs)  In Chief by Mr. Adams  1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  Q  9  10  A  11  12  13  14  15  Q  16  17  A  18  Q  19  A  20  21  22  23  Q  24  A  25  Q  26  27  A  28  29  Q  30  A  31  32  33  34  35  Q  36  37  A  38  MR. ADAMS  39  40  THE COURT  41  MR. ADAMS  42  Q  43  A  44  45  46  Q  47  A  resources.  And there is hardly any money involved  before the clear-cut logging came in.  And with the  clear-cut logging, there is nothing out there for us  to live on so we have to rely on other sources to do  what we traditionally do.  That's why I go out and be  a commercial fisherman or bus driver or grab whatever  job I can get.  And do you say that you don't have the use of your  territories now?  No, we are restricted because of the laws of the  province.  We can't go out and do what we usually do.  And if we do go out, we get charged.  So we are very  limited to whatever we do even if there is space left  to do our traditional lifestyle.  Have you ever been charged with an offence against a  provincial law?  Yes.  When was that?  In late sixties, I guess, '69 or '70 I got charged  for -- they charged me for killing wildlife out of  season and that was with a moose.  They found some  moose on my truck.  Was that the only time you've been charged?  I believe so.  How many feasts would you say that you go to in a  year?  It averages about three -- two to four, about three  feasts average.  What does that depend on?  It depends whether there is a death or if some  family puts up a stone to mark the grave and that  takes a feast.  And the witnesses are invited -- the  other chiefs are invited to witness the headstone  being put up.  And what was the most recent feast that you  attended?  The last one I attended was Wiigyet's funeral feast.  :  Wiigyet, My Lord, is 75 on the plaintiff's list.  It  is the W-I-I-G-Y-E-T, Wiigyet.  :  Thank you.  And when was that?  That was right on Christmas -- around Christmas  week. I don't know if it was on Christmas day or  Christmas eve.  Of which year?  '87. 5641  1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  V. Smith (for Plaintiffs)  In Chief by Mr. Adams  Q    And where was it?  A    Gitwangak Village Hall.  Q    And who hosted that feast?  A    Gisgaast.  Q    And apart from the funeral business, what was the  business of that feast?  A    The passing of Wiigyet's name.  Q    And what was the English name of the person who had  held the name?  A    Had held the name, Magnus Turner.  Q    And what was the English name of the person who was  receiving the name?  Roy Wesley.  I'm sorry?  Roy Wesley.  Roy?  Wesley.  I have W-E-S-L-E-Y, My Lord.  Thank you.  THE  THE  THE  THE  MR.  THE  MR.  A  COURT:  WITNESS  COURT:  WITNESS  ADAMS  COURT  ADAMS  Q  A  Q  A  MR.  THE  MR.  THE  MR.  THE  THE  And did you speak at that feast?  Yes.  And do you recall what you had to say?  Recognizing them for doing -- doing their feast  through the traditional manner and thanking them for  the food and wishing that our father will restore  everything that they spent and double their blessings  later on.  And were you speaking as Sakum Higookw?  Yes.  What's the most recent Lax skiik, Eagle hosted feast  that you recall attending?  I'm Sorry, you've talked  about one in late '87 already?  Yes.  Before that?  When Carl Washburn died.  It was a couple years ago  now.  Do you recall what his Indian name was?  Ax dii haapxw, I believe.  We may need a spelling for that.  Why do we need a spelling for it, Mr. Adams?  Only for the reporter.  He hasn't used the name.  He used the name Ax dii haapxw.  Oh, he did, sorry.  TRANSLATOR:  A-X, underlined, space, D-I-I, space,  H-A-A-P-X-W.  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  ADAMS  COURT  ADAMS  COURT  ADAMS  COURT 5642  V. Smith (for Plaintiffs)  In Chief by Mr. Adams  1 THE COURT:  Thank you.  2 MR. ADAMS:  3 Q    And was that name passed at that feast?  4 A    Yes.  5 Q    And who was it passed to?  6 A   Andrew Derrick.  7 Q    And if I can refer you for a moment back to the  8 genealogy, on page 16 in the center of the page, there  9 is an Andrew Derrick who is shown as deceased and then  10 there is a Sonny Derrick?  11 A    Yes.  12 Q    Is it Sonny Derrick that you are referring to?  13 A    Yes.  14 Q    And is his name also Andrew?  15 A    Yes.  16 Q    When we first talked about the genealogy this  17 morning in court, you described it as showing the  18 members of your house and your clan.  Was there a time  19 when the Lax skiik consisted -- or do the Lax skiik  20 now consist of a number of units like houses?  21 A    Not now, no.  22 Q    Did they at one time?  23 A    Yes.  24 Q    Okay.  And what were those units?  25 A    There is Sakum Higookw and D'ewelasxw, Giila'wa and  26 Simadiiks.  27 Q    And are those no longer distinct houses?  28 A    No, we all one now.  29 Q    And what's the reason for that?  30 A    Because of the distinguishment -- just about the  31 distinguishment of the whole clan.  32 Q    What happened?  33 A    Through the disease quite a few years ago.  There is  34 some kind of disease that swept through the territory.  35 The same thing happened with Lax Gibuu of Gitwangak.  36 They were almost wiped out too.  And after both clans  37 almost got wiped out, they put the two clans together  38 to help each other.  That is one of the reasons why my  39 mother was brought up through the Frog Clan when she  40 was small.  Her mom was diseased too when she was  41 still a baby.  42 Q    So the time of the disease you are describing was  43 around the time when your mother was an infant?  44 A    Yes.  45 Q    And your mother's mother died as a result of that  46 disease?  47 A    Yes. 5643  V. Smith (for Plaintiffs)  In Chief by Mr. Adams  1  Q  2  A  3  4  5  6  7  8  Q  9  10  A  11  Q  12  A  13  Q  14  A  15  Q  16  17  A  18  Q  19  A  20  21  MR. macke:  22  23  THE COURT  24  MR. ADAMS  25  Q  26  27  A  28  29  Q  30  A  31  Q  32  33  A  34  35  36  37  38  Q  39  A  40  41  42  Q  43  44  45  A  46  Q  47  And what happened to your mother?  She was brought up with her -- by her grandmother  and then her grandmother died.  She was pretty old  already.  She was brought up by her grandmother until  she was about three, two or three years old.  And then  my grandmother Sarah Benson took over and raised her,  Chief Tooxensxw.  And Tooxensxw, My Lord, is 64 on the plaintiff's  list.  And what clan was Sarah Benson from?  Frog.  Ganada?  Ganada, yes.  And from Kitwancool?  Yes.  Was your mother also adopted into that house at some  point?  Yes.  And when was that?  When she was fairly young, I guess, they adopted  her.  JZIE:  Excuse me, I don't think a house was mentioned,  was it?  :  No, just a clan.  I think the question was what house Sarah Benson  belonged to.  What house did Sarah Benson belong to?  Xamlaxyeltxw, I believe.  I'm not too sure of which  house she belongs to.  Did Sarah Benson have the name Tooxensxw?  Yes.  And did your mother remain in that house, Sarah  Benson's house?  Yes, until David Wells seen that she start to have  children and seeing that she was producing children.  And that meant that the clan is going to be strong  again if he got my mother back into Lax skiik where  her original tribe is.  Her clan is Lax skiik.  Was it necessary for her to be re-adopted?  Yes, to explain to the other chiefs what is  happening they had to have a feast at that particular  time that she went back to Lax skiik.  Is that a common thing under Gitksan law for a  person to be adopted and raised in one house and then  returned to their original house?  Yes.  And is the reason commonly the one you've given for  your mother's case of replenishing the house? 5644  V. Smith (for Plaintiffs)  In Chief by Mr. Adams  1  A  2  Q  3  4  A  5  6  Q  7  A  8  Q  9  10  11  A  12  Q  13  A  14  15  16  17  18  19  MR.  ADAMS  20  21  THE  COURT  22  MR.  ADAMS  23  THE  COURT  24  MR.  ADAMS  25  THE  COURT  26  27  28  29  MR.  ADAMS  30  Q  31  32  A  33  34  35  36  37  Q  38  39  A  40  Q  41  A  42  Q  43  A  44  Q  45  A  46  47  Q  Yes.  The disease you've described, do you know what  disease that was?  I don't know what they call it, chicken pox or small  pox at that time.  I'm not too sure.  Does Sakum Higookw own territory?  Yes.  And can you describe for the court very generally  the location of Sakum Higookw's territory, all of  them?  All of them?  Which piece of map are we dealing with?  The Lax Behlit.  Lax Behlit is on the west side of  K'san, Skeena.  That starts around Andimaul by Xsu wii  Hlabit and goes up to Lax Behlit that is going toward  the west or northwest.  And it goes down Lax Behlit,  it turns down Lax Behlit and goes down south to Xsi an  skyok.  Let me stop you for a moment because there is quite  a string of words.  My lord, Lax Behlit is 823.  That's the name of the territory?  That's the general name of the territory.  823?  Yes.  I have got it on the west side of the Skeena  starting at Andimaul and goes up the northwest, but I  don't think a name was given as we go south.  And then  we have a name I haven't picked up.  What's the south boundary, the Lax Behlit's  territory?  The corner boundary on the south is Lax wila oo.  That's where my mother was raised at Lax wila oo.  And  it goes on the ridge of the mountain on the south side  of Xsi an skyok.  And it ends down on top of that  tunnel on the other side of Xsi an skyok.  If you draw a line across the south side of the Lax  Behlit territory, is that generally the Skeena?  Yes.  And what is the meaning in English of Lax Behlit?  It is a flat ground.  And does it refer to a feature on that territory?  Yes.  What was that and where was it?  It is on top of Andimaul towards due north,  northwest.  And is the Village of Gitwangak included in that 5645  V. Smith (for Plaintiffs)  In Chief by Mr. Adams  1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  MR.  MR.  MR.  MR.  A  A  Q  A  Q  A  ADAMS  territory?  Yes, it is right in the mid-territory where  Gitwangak is, the present settlement.  And is Gitwangak Village itself part of Sakum  Higookw's territory?  Yes.  Now, from whom did you learn about the location and  the boundaries of that Lax Behlit territory?  When I was fairly young, a young boy, we used to  catch the train from Gitwangak early in the morning.  Around 4:30 we used to catch the train just before  daybreak and then usually we get off at Andimaul  with -- usually with Jimmie Tait or George Moore at  that time and we pick soap berries there.  That was in  July sometime.  Sometime in July pick soap berries  there and they told me that's Lax skiik's territory  that we are on.  Who told you that?  George Moore and Jimmie Tait.  Could I have the map which is the third pocket in  that blue folder.  MACKENZIE:  My Lord, the genealogy has a Jimmie Tait on it.  It doesn't show whether he is deceased or not.  I  wonder if my friend can inform the court whether this  informant is deceased.  I can and he is, My Lord.  Mr. Smith, have you had an opportunity to look  before at this map that says at the top the letter V  in a circle and then Lax Behlit and after that Sakum  Higookw?  Yes.  And does that show correctly the location and the  boundaries of Sakum Higookw's Lax Behlit territory?  Yes.  My lord, I would ask that this be marked as the next  exhibit, but there is a procedural complication here  in that this map, and others like it which we will be  coming to in the course of the day, are exhibits in  the commission evidence of Stanley Williams.  And what  I propose is that we reserve a number and put those of  the maps that Mr. Smith will be identifying in their  appropriate places in that sequence.  And when Stanley  Williams' commission evidence is completed and those  exhibits come in, there will be a logical place for  them all.  I think Mr. Rush handed to the registrar  this morning a full binder that includes the maps that  I am presently referring to.  ADAMS  Q  A  Q  A  ADAMS 5646  V. Smith (for Plaintiffs)  In Chief by Mr. Adams  1  THE  COURT  2  3  4  5  MR.  ADAMS  6  7  THE  COURT  8  9  MR.  ADAMS  10  11  12  THE  COURT  13  14  15  16  17  MR.  ADAMS  18  19  THE  COURT  20  MR.  ADAMS  21  THE  REGIS1  22  THE  COURT  23  24  25  26  27  28  MR.  ADAMS  29  30  THE  COURT  31  MR.  ADAMS  32  Q  33  34  35  A  36  Q  37  A  38  Q  39  A  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  :  Well, does it matter if we waste a number and later  duplicate it with the same thing?  I am agreeable to  the suggestion you are making if that is the  convenient way to do it.  :  It is just that they would all be in one place and  easily findable and we wouldn't --  :  Not findable in relation to this evidence if they  are not given a number in this sequence.  :  No, at the end of the day it may cause some  complications because some of the maps are in twice,  that's all.  :  I don't think it matters.  That can be noted at the  time that it is already in at some other number and it  can be given another number at the same sequence then.  There is no absolute prohibition against an exhibit  being in twice.  :  Okay.  Then I ask that map V be marked as the next  exhibit.  :  This is map V?  :  That's right, that's the first pocket in.  PRAR:  Exhibit 426.  :  426.  (EXHIBIT 426:  Map V, Lax Behlit Territory (also  in commission evidence of S. Williams, Package  Exhibit 4)  :  And just for future reference, My Lord, that series  of maps was Exhibit 4 in Stanley Williams' commission.  :  All right.  Now, Mr. Smith, you started to tell me about going  by train to Lax Behlit territory.  Can you say when  you first went there how old were you?  About seven, eight years old.  And did you go back there in more than one year?  Yes.  And for how many years?  About three or four years.  One time the other  summer George Moore and I, we used the canoe to go up  there with a net, a drift net.  We got as far as Lax  wii Luu Hlabit near Andimaul and he said, This is as  far as we go.  This is as far as our territory.  And  we set up a net and then we drift down.  At the same  time he pointed out that there is another piece of  land that belongs to Lax skiik which is across from  Andimaul at Sigagit, and it is just a small piece of 5647  V. Smith (for Plaintiffs)  In Chief by Mr. Adams  1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  MR. ADAMS  THE  MR.  COURT  ADAMS  Q  land.  And while he was explaining that, we were  drifting down with the net in the canoe.  And we  picked up the net about three times during the time we  drift from Andimaul to Gitwangak.  My Lord, Sigagit which is the territory across the  river that the witness described is 1056 on the word  list.  Yes.  And you talked a few minutes ago about picking soap  berries back on the Lax Behlit territory.  What did  you do with those?  A    We bring it back to Gitwangak.  We walk back after  we pick them.  We walk back to Gitwangak and we  preserve the soap berries.  We put it in jars and cook  it.  Q    Were you involved in that work?  A    My mother does all the work.  I just go down the  river and pack water or chop wood for her to use.  Q    What time of year was it when you went picking soap  berries at Lax Behlit?  A    Early, early July.  Q    And were there other kinds of berries that could be  picked on the Lax Behlit territory?  A    That was the only kind of berries that we picked was  soap berries.  And in late August we go across  Gitwangak at a place we call Ant K'ydax wit, that's  right across Gitwangak.  MR. ADAMS:  Can I stop you for a second.  Can we get a spelling  for Ant K'ydax wit, please.  THE TRANSLATOR:  A-N-T, space, K, stop, Y-D-A-X, space W-I-T.  THE COURT:  I'm sorry, D-A-Y-D-A-X-W?  THE TRANSLATOR:  K, stop, Y-D-A-X, space, W-I-T.  THE COURT:  Was it A-N-T or A-M-T?  THE TRANSLATOR:  A-N-T.  MR. ADAMS:  My Lord, I might point out that there is another  version of this spelling on map X in this series that  I understand the second spelling, the one on the map,  is the one that has been used in Stanley Williams'  commission.  So there may be later confusion, but we  are apparently talking about the same place.  All right.  And where is this location that I just  had spelled for me?  THE COURT  MR  ADAMS  Q  A  Can you say again where Ant K'ydax wit is?  Ant K'ydax wit is right across from Gitwangak  Village above Xsi gwin yookhl.  Xsi gwin yookhl is 564?  V. Smith (for Plaintiffs)  In Chief by Mr. Adams  1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  MR.  THE  A  ADAMS  COURT  MR.  ADAMS  Q  A  Q  A  THE  MR.  A  COURT  ADAMS  Q  A  THE  THE  THE  THE  THE  THE  MR.  THE  MR.  A  COURT:  WITNESS  COURT:  WITNESS  COURT:  WITNESS  ADAMS  COURT  ADAMS  Q  A  Q  A  Q  Price Creek, it is within that valley.  That is a different territory than the Lax Behlit  one?  Yes.  :  Xsi gwin yookhl is 213 on the word list.  :  Thank you.  I am having a little trouble with this  map.  It shows the territories names Lax Bihlet and  then on the right-hand side there appears that name,  an arrow one pointing within that appears to be the  boundary and one outside the boundary.  What am I to  take from that?  Mr. Smith, you said that Lax Behlit made a flat?  Yes.  Is the entire flat that is called Lax Behlit inside  Sakum Higookw's territory or does it --  The whole area is flat.  And it goes right up by  Andimaul and Lax Behlit is Sakum Higookw's territory  throughout the whole territory.  Some of Lax Behlit is outside Sakum Higookw's  territory?  Yes.  :  I see.  All right.  Do you recall fishing with your father in the  vicinity of the Lax Behlit territory?  Yes, we walk on the track towards Xsan skyok.  That's where we have our net is Xsan skyok in  summertime.  That is about one kilometer upstream from  Xsan skyok.  Xsan skyok, My Lord, is 833 on the word list.  Do  you know the English name for Xsan skyok?  I think it is called Mill Creek.  That's where you had your net?  Yes.  And you said it was one mile upstream from where?  Xsan skyok.  And Xsan skyok is what again?  That is Mill Creek.  That is 833 and it is Mill Creek the witness said.  That is one mile up from Mill Creek?  From Xsan skyok?  Yes.  From where Xsan skyok flows into the Skeena?  Yes.  And at the time you were fishing there with your 5649  V. Smith (for Plaintiffs)  In Chief by Mr. Adams  1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  father, how old would you have been?  A   About eight, nine years old.  Q    And did you do that in more than one year?  A    Yes.  Q    For how many years?  A   About three years, two or three years.  Q    And in what season of the year?  A   Around July until pinks come in.  And then we pull  our net when the pinks come in.  THE COURT:  So that fishing site would be west of the Village of  Gitwangak?  THE WITNESS:  Yes.  MR. ADAMS:  Q    Downstream?  A    Downstream from Gitwangak.  Q    Now, you've mentioned already another territory  belonging to Sakum Higookw called Sigagit.  And can  you describe generally where that territory is?  A    Right across Xsi wii Luu Hlabit, across Andimaul.  Q    Can I stop you just for one second?  Xsi wii Luu  Hlabit, My Lord, is 826 on the word list.  And is that  a creek?  Yes.  Does it have an English name that you know?  No.  And that's Sigagit, is it?  THE  THE  THE  MR.  A  Q  A  COURT:  WITNESS  COURT:  ADAMS:  Q  Yes.  Thank you.  THE  THE  THE  THE  MR.  A  Q  A  COURT  Sorry, you were in the midst of a description of  where Sigagit is?  That's right across Andimaul.  I have never been on  that territory when I was small.  This one piece of  land that I have never walked around on.  It is across the Skeena from Andimaul?  Across the Skeena from Andimaul.  I'm sorry, did you say you were never on it or you  were never on it when you were small?  WITNESS  COURT:  WITNESS  ADAMS:  Q  A  Q  I was never on it when I was small,  But you have been on it since?  No.  A  What does Sigagit mean in English?  Sigagit means you are pointing out something.  Does that refer to something that is on that  territory?  Probably.  I am not too familiar with that part of 5650  V. Smith (for Plaintiffs)  In Chief by Mr. Adams  1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  the territory.  And who was it that told you about the location and  the boundaries of the Sigagit territory?  George Moore when we used his canoe upstream.  Is there anybody else that you can say pointed out  that territory to you?  At one time we went up Staax k'aa'yt, a mountain  called Staax k'aa'yt beside Shindilla.  Let me stop you for one second.  Staax k'aa'yt is  875 on the word list.  And Shindilla, at least in  English, is S-H-I-N-D-I-L-L-A.  Yes.  THE WITNESS:  And in Staax k'aa'yt there is no creek nearby so  we have to carry water up there to pick blueberries.  And when we were up there we were having lunch.  And  Jimmie Tait was one of the people that went up there  with us and my mother.  And all the Mathews, Art  Mathews and his mother were all up there.  There is  quite a few Gitwangak went up there.  The Ryans went  up there and we were having lunch.  And Jimmie was  pointing up where Sigagit is, that was the second time  that I was told about that one particular area.  A  Q  A  MR. ADAMS:  THE COURT:  MR.  MR.  ADAMS:  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  ADAMS  THE COURT  And did Jimmie Tait identify that to you at that  time as Sakum Higookw's territory?  Yes.  I have opened in front of you a map that says at the  top there is a circle letter W and then it says  "Sigagit" and after that it says "Sakum Higookw".  Have you had an opportunity to look at that map?  Yes.  And to your knowledge, does it accurately show the  boundaries of Sakum Higookw's Sigagit territory?  Yes.  My lord, I would ask that that be marked as the next  exhibit.  427.  THE REGISTRAR:  427.  MR.  (EXHIBIT 427:  Map W, Sigagit Territory, also in  commission evidence of S. Williams, Package  Exhibit 4)  ADAMS:  Mr. Smith, I want to come to another territory that  you mentioned briefly already this morning and that is  Xwi gwin yookhl and that is 312 on the word list, My  Lord. 5651  V. Smith (for Plaintiffs)  In Chief by Mr. Adams  1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  THE  MR.  THE  MR.  THE  THE  THE  MR.  COURT:  What number again?  ADAMS:  312.  COURT:  Yes.  ADAMS:  Q    Are you familiar with a territory by that name?  A    Yes.  Q    And is that Sakum Higookw's territory?  A    Yes.  Q    And does Xsi gwin yookhl have an English name that  you know?  Price Creek.  Price Creek?  Yes.  Thank you.  A  COURT:  WITNESS  COURT:  ADAMS:  Q  A  And can you describe generally for the court where  the Xsi gwin yookhl territory is in relation to the  Skeena and in relation to Gitwangak?  It is -- the territory runs down from the west side  of Xsi gwin yookhl going up to Winsa geets, and goes  over Winsa geets to way back towards the height of the  land.  And I only went as far as -- when I went up  inside the territory, I went as far as Ant K'ydaxw to  pick blueberries.  And the first trip that I went up  there we went up with quite a few hunters to hunt  goat.  At that time my mother and Jimmie stayed behind  where we pick blueberries at Ant K'ydaxw.  And when we  were having supper they were pointing out Winsa geets  for me.  And they were saying that -- they asked me if  I see the chin and I couldn't see the chin.  They were  laughing at me because I couldn't see the chin.  That's what Winsa geets means, it is the chin for the  water coming out of the chin.  Can I stop you for one second.  We need a spelling  for Winsa geets and for Ant K'ydaxw which we have had  already this morning.  TRANSLATOR:  Winsa geets.  COURT:  Which one is this?  TRANSLATOR:  It is a creek.  MR. ADAMS  THE  THE  THE  THE  THE  THE  THE  MR.  COURT:  WITNESS  COURT:  WITNESS  ADAMS:  Q  A  Is this the one you only went as far as this creek?  :  Across from Ant K'ydaxw.  You told me you only went as far as something.  :  As far as Ant K'ydaxw across from Winsa geets.  What kind of a place is Winsa geets, first of all?  It is a mountain that is sharp.  It is like a sharp  mountain beside the Seven Sisters there. 5652  V. Smith (for Plaintiffs)  In Chief by Mr. Adams  1 THE COURT:  All right.  Well, I have got Winsa geets and it is  2 on the map, W-I-N-X-S-I-I G-E-E-T-S.  That's as far as  3 you went?  4 THE WITNESS:  Yes, across from it.  I never really got to Winsa  5 geets.  6 THE COURT:  Right.  7 MR. ADAMS:  8 Q    Where were you when you could see Winsa geets?  9 A    I was at Ant K'ydaxw.  10 Q    And is that also a mountain?  11 A    Yes, beside the mountain on a side hill.  12 THE COURT:  All right.  Just a minute now.  13 THE WITNESS:  Ant K'ydaxw my mother explained to me that in the  14 old days the people that went up picking berries they  15 usually -- there is a side of the mountain where you  16 have to cross.  They put the Indian rope around the  17 kids' waist and hold onto them.  If you slide down  18 from there you go all the way down to the bottom, so  19 they tie rope onto the kids to cross Ant K'ydaxw to  20 get on the other side.  That's why they call it Ant  21 K'ydaxw is to hold on to the children.  22 THE COURT:  All right.  Well, now I'm hoping to get out of this  23 confusion.  You were across from Winsa geets.  And  24 where were you when you across from Winsa geets?  25 THE WITNESS:  The Ant K'ydaxw.  26 THE COURT:  Can I have a spelling?  Is that  27 A-N-T-G-I-D-E-E-K-W-I-T?  28 THE TRANSLATOR:  That is how it is spelled on the map.  29 THE COURT:  That's not how you would spell it?  30 THE TRANSLATOR:  No.  31 THE COURT:  How would you spell it?  32 THE TRANSLATOR:  A-N-T, space, K, stop, Y-D-A-X-W-I-T.  33 THE COURT:  Thank you.  All right.  Now, the name of the  34 mountain they pointed out to you which was thought to  35 resemble a chin, is that Winsa geets?  36 THE WITNESS:  Yes.  37 THE COURT:  I see.  I think I have got it now, thank you.  3 8 MR. ADAMS:  39 Q    And what does Winsa geets mean in English?  40 A    It is where the creek flows from the chin.  41 Q    You've talked about hearing about that territory  42 from Jimmie Tait.  Is there anyone else who told you  43 about that territory?  44 A    My mother was there.  45 Q    Did David Wells ever tell you anything about that  46 territory?  47 A    I believe he was up there too at that time. 5653  V. Smith (for Plaintiffs)  In Chief by Mr. Adams  1  Q  2  A  3  Q  4  A  5  Q  6  7  A  8  Q  9  10  A  11  Q  12  A  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  Q  20  A  21  22  Q  23  24  25  26  27  A  28  Q  29  30  A  31  MR.  ADAMS  32  THE  COURT  33  THE  REGIS  34  35  36  37  38  39  THE  COURT  40  MR.  ADAMS  41  THE  COURT  42  MR.  ADAMS  43  Q  44  45  46  A  47  And have you hunted on that territory?  Just picking mountain berries.  When was that?  I was about ten years old, I guess.  Have you ever been on that territory with your  father?  On that territory, yes.  Was that the same time you were describing as  picking mountain berries or a different time?  A different time.  And what were you doing there with your father?  We were going to go up and hunt mountain goat, but  when we got up there he gave me an axe to bring up to  use to build fires.  Apparently, after we had lunch at  the bottom of the mountain before we start hiking up,  I left the axe where we had lunch so we didn't get to  hunt goat.  We just stayed overnight and went back  home.  How old would you have been at that time?  Well, ten or eleven, the same year or the year  after.  I have opened the series of maps in front of you at  a map that is marked X in a circle and then it says  "Xsi gwin yookhl" and beneath that it says "Sakum  Higookw"?  Have you had an opportunity to look at that  map?  Yes.  And to your knowledge does it show Xsi gwin yookhl  as Sakum Higookw's territory?  Yes.  :  Can I have that marked the next exhibit?  :  Yes, 428.  PRAR:  428.  (EXHIBIT 428:  Map X, Xsi gwin yookhl Territory,  also in commission evidence of S. Williams,  Package Exhibit 4)  Are you going to start a new territory, Mr.  No, I am still in the midst of this one.  All right.  Adams ?  Mr. Smith, what was your family connection, if any,  to Jimmie Tait who you've mentioned a number of times  as telling you about these territories?  He is in the Eagle Clan.  He is, I guess, one of the  last -- he is the only one left alive in his family, 5654  V. Smith (for Plaintiffs)  In Chief by Mr. Adams  1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  MR.  THE  MR.  THE  MR.  THE  MR.  so he is a loner, and his Indian name is Luuginaxhait.  ADAMS:  Can I have the spelling for it?  TRANSLATOR:  I spelled it.  ADAMS:  The spelling I have for that, My Lord, is  L-U-U-G-I-N-A-X-H-A-I-T.  COURT:  What does that mean?  ADAMS:  Q    That was the chief's name for Jimmie Tait; is that  right?  A    Yes.  COURT:  Yes.  ADAMS:  Q    And if you look at the genealogy on page one, dead  in the center of the page, that shows Jimmie Tait?  Yes.  Now, he had the same name as your mother's name  before she was married.  Were they related, to your  knowledge?  Probably.  It could be -- their mothers could be  sisters, I am not too certain about it.  They weren't brother and sister?  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  No.  MR.  THE  But were they something like cousins?  Yes.  Okay.  Do you know who raised Jimmie Tait?  Edward Tait.  I know he stayed with Edward Tait  while Edward Tait was still alive.  Q    And is that the same Edward Tait who was your  mother's father?  A    Yes.  ADAMS:  That might be a good place to stop, My Lord.  COURT:  Yes, thank you, we will adjourn until 2 o'clock.  THE REGISTRAR:  Order in court, court will adjourn until  2:00.  I hereby certify the foregoing to  be a true and accurate transcript  of the proceedings herein,  transcribed to the best of my  skill and ability 5655  V. Smith (for Plaintiffs)  In Chief by Mr. Adams  3 LISA REID, OFFICIAL REPORTER  4 UNITED REPORTING LTD.  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  4 0 (PROCEEDINGS RESUMED AT 2:00)  41  42 THE REGISTRAR:  Order in court.  43 THE COURT:  Perhaps we should adjourn for a moment.  Here's Mr.  44 Adams, there we are, we're in business.  Mr. Adams.  4 5    MR. ADAMS:  46 Q   Thank you, my Lord.  Mr. Smith, before we go on to  47 talk further about this Xsi gwin yookhl territory, 5656  V. Smith (for Plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Adams  1 there was something you said about Sigagit, which is  2 the territory that appears on map W, and you said this  3 morning to his Lordship that you hadn't been on that  4 territory.  Now it appears from the map as if the  5 highway runs along one side of that territory.  Is it  6 correct to say that your comment about not having been  7 on that territory was with the exception of trips  8 along the highway?  9 A   Yes.  10 Q   You have been on the highway there?  11 A   Yes.  12 Q   Okay.  Now, I would like to go back to Xsi gwin  13 yookhl, which is in English Christ Creek and is on map  14 X, and I would like to ask you if you start out from  15 Gitwangak, what's the route that takes you onto the  16 Xsi gwin yookhl territory?  17 A  When I went up from Gitwangak we used to have a ferry  18 to go across.  From the ferry we used to go up about  19 half a kilometre from the ferry towards the east, and  20 that's where the trail is placed from there going up  21 to Ant k'ydaxw, and it takes -- somebody had a  22 subcontract around there, that was Leonard Bright, I  23 think.  He is still alive.  I don't know his Indian  24 name, but he had a whole contract across there, and we  25 used the skid road straight in to the bottom of Ant  26 k'ydaxw, and we had to leave the skid road and head  27 west a little bit to the bottom of the ridge towards  28 the Xsi gwin yookhl, Christ Creek.  There's a little  2 9 creek coming from -- coming down from towards Skeena  30 on the east side of the ridge, that's where we usually  31 have our lunch before we start hiking up the mountain,  32 and we go up along the ridge, we go jigjag because  33 it's pretty steep until we hit about half ways up, and  34 then we go along the side of the mountain to Ant  35 k'ydaxw.  36 Q   Is the trail blazed all the way up?  37 A   Yes.  38 Q   Are those old blazes or new blazes?  39 A   Old blazes.  Can you say how old?  How can he say that, my Lord.  He might have made them.  Well, I suppose man-made or by appearance you might  44 be able to tell how old.  Go ahead.  45 A   It's fairly old I guess, because in some places we had  46 to replace some trails, the ones if we can't find a  47 blaze -- when you follow the blaze, as long as you  4 0 MR. ADAMS  41 MR. CLARK  42 MR. ADAMS  4 3 THE COURT 5657  V. Smith (for Plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Adams  1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  MR.  THE  THE  MR.  THE  MR.  THE  THE  THE  MR.  A  Q  A  ADAMS  COURT  A  COURT  ADAMS  COURT  ADAMS  COURT  A  COURT  A  COURT  ADAMS  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  leave one, if you can't see the next one you block on  the other side of the tree, and the other side of the  tree indicates which way to go, that's how you find  the other blaze, and if the blaze is too far apart for  us to follow we blaze another trail ourselves.  Was the trail already blazed when you first got there,  first time you went?  Yes.  And the blazes that you saw at that time, were  those -- did those appear old?  Yes.  All right.  This trail  this the trail that  to it looks like --  Is that the second  is from where? Is  takes you up from the creek bed  Ant k'ydeex.  What's it called?  Ant k'ydeex.  That's A-n-t-k-y-d-e-e-x-w-k?  name down the legend on the right-hand side?  On map X?  yes .  Yes.  All right.  So that trail takes you up to that  ridge?  Yes.  Yes, All right.  And it starts on the south bank of the Skeena, does  it?  Yes.  Opposite Gitwangak?  Opposite Gitwangak.  I see.  Now, I think you referred this morning to an  occasion when you were up in the area of Ant k'ydeex  with other people from Gitwangak, including Henry  Tait?  Yes.  Can you tell me what you were doing there on that  occasion?  We were going to pick berries on that occasion when in  the morning we heard a bunch of gun shots above us.  Henry Tait was one day ahead of us at that time, and  in the morning when we were still in bed we heard a  bunch of gun shots, and then about two hours later a  couple of them came down to where we are because they  seen the smoke coming out from where we were staying.  Here they told us that they shot a grizzly that 565?  V. Smith (for Plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Adams  1 morning.  2 Q   Are you familiar with a fishing site on the Skeena on  3 this territory by the name of Antkii iss?  4 A   Yes.  5 Q   And where is that?  6 A   Right across Gitwangak Village on the east side.  7 Q   And is that Sakum Higookw's fishing site?  8 A   Yes.  9 Q   And what use do you make or allow to be made of that  10 fishing site?  11 A   Can you rephrase the question, I didn't --  12 Q   Do you use that fishing site yourself today?  13 A   No.  We have used it, and around this time of year  14 Kathleen Matthews usually phones us and asks our  15 permission to fish at Antkii iss, because it's easier  16 for them to go across and it's right below the  17 village.  18 Q   Is that Art Matthews Jr.'s mother?  19 A   Yes.  And last -- three years ago I guess that the  20 chiefs got together and they were expressing the  21 hardship they were receiving from the federal  22 fisheries, and they instructed their chief councillor  23 to call me to ask permission to use the place for a  24 protest site.  25 Q   Are you one of the chiefs who was experiencing  26 hardship from the federal fisheries?  27 A   Yes.  28 Q   And what was the hardship that you were experiencing?  29 A   In especially in July we usually have our nets out in  30 July, and we work it so that we put our net in and if  31 we have enough fish to put on the what we call w'it,  32 there's little -- they're little skinny trees to go  33 across, we built the smokehouse.  Inside the  34 smokehouse, built logs on each side of the smokehouse  35 and we put the w'it, we call w'it pole alongside  36 enough for fish to hang.  If that's full -- if that's  37 half full and we know we've caught enough to fill it  38 up we pull our net, and once we strip those fish we  39 put it up on top of the w'it where we really dried,  4 0 and then leave enough and then we have enough room and  41 we put our net in, and with the restrictions we can't  42 do that, it's -- it's wasting time on our side because  43 there's a limited time for us to fish, and we operate  44 along those lines the past few years where we pull our  45 net and put it in, pull it out, put it in, and it's  46 very difficult for us to get enough fish for the  47 winter consumption, so we objected to this time frame 5659  V. Smith (for Plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Adams  1  2  Q  3  A  4  5  6  7  8  9  Q  10  11  A  12  Q  13  14  A  15  Q  16  A  17  18  19  Q  20  A  21  22  THE  COURT  23  24  MR.  ADAMS  25  THE  COURT  26  THE  TRANS  27  THE  COURT  28  29  MR.  ADAMS  30  Q  31  A  32  33  THE  COURT  34  A  35  36  MR.  ADAMS  37  Q  38  39  40  Q  41  A  42  Q  43  44  45  A  46  47  Q  the federal fisheries imposed on us.  And how did you make your objection?  I endorsed the -- my colleagues to put up a protest  camp at Antkii iss, and I came home on the weekend  when they were going to open it, and I was one of  the -- I was one of the chiefs -- there was two of us  there -- that opened the official opening at Antkii  iss .  And was that an action that involved the chiefs  exclusively or other people as well?  The chiefs exclusively.  So as far as who was present at Antkii iss at the  fishing site --  Yes.  Were there people other than the chiefs there?  Yeah.  There were supporters from Gitksan-Wet'suwet'en  hereditary chiefs.  There was quite a few chiefs at  that opening.  And why was Antkii iss a good site for that action?  We figured it's a good site because it's within the  reserve of Gitwangak Village.  :  I'm not sure if I have the spelling of this  location, Mr. Adams.  :  Antkii iss?  :  Yes.  jATOR:  It's 1168 on the new list I gave you.  :  1168?  Thank you very much.  Which reserve is that,  please?  Do you know which reserve Antkii iss is on?  It's right across Gitwangak Village -- I don't know  what number it's on.  : Is that the name of the reserve, Antkii iss?  That's what we call it. I don't know what the  Province calls it.  I would like to change territories and ask you about a  territory by the name of Xsi gallii gadsit, and the  area is also known as Ritchie.  Does Sakum Higookw have territory in that area?  Yes.  Can you describe generally where that is in relation  to the Skeena and in relation to any other place that  you can identify on the Skeena?  It's about ten miles downstream from Cedarvale, on the  west side of the river, on the track side.  What does Xsi gallii gadsit mean in English? 5660  V. Smith (for Plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Adams  1  A  2  3  4  5  Q  6  A  7  Q  8  9  A  10  Q  11  12  13  14  A  15  16  Q  17  18  A  19  20  Q  21  A  22  Q  23  24  25  26  A  27  MR. ADAMS  28  THE COURT  29  MR. ADAMS  30  Q  31  32  A  33  Q  34  35  A  36  37  38  Q  39  40  A  41  42  Q  43  A  44  Q  45  A  46  47  Xsi gallii gadsit, it means water, like a water puddle  along the creek.  It's a slow running water, it's like  a spilled water when you're walking with a pale and if  your pale has a hole in it, that's what it looks like.  And is that the name of a creek?  Yes.  All right.  And do you know the name of that creek in  English?  No.  Okay.  My understanding, my Lord, is that in English  it's Sallysout, S-a-1-l-y-s-o-u-t, Creek.  And can you  say where that creek is in relation to the boundary of  that territory?  It's on the west boundary downstream on the track  side.  And who was it who told you about the Xsi gallii  gadsit territory belonging to Sakum Higookw?  I stayed with David Wells and Jimmy Tait on the  territory, and they told me.  They told you that it was Sakum Higookw's territory?  Yes.  Okay.  Now, I want to take you briefly to another  territory, which as it will appear it shows on the  same map, and can you identify a territory as Gwax  tseelixit?  Yes.  That's number 1103 on the word list, my Lord.  Number 1103.  Right.  And is that territory also known as Hells  Bells Creek?  Yes.  And is that the English name for Gwax tseelixit or  not?  No, it's not.  That's a different meaning, but that's  where Gwax tseelixit is located at, is Hells Bells  Creek.  Could you describe generally where that territory is  in relation to the Skeena?  It's on the east side, on the highway side, about half  a kilometre, one kilometre from Ritchie Station.  Is it downstream from Ritchie?  Yes.  And what does Gwax tseelixit mean?  Gwax tseelixit means the Skeena itself.  There's a  narrow part of the Skeena in the territory where the  water -- whirlpool, and this back eddies, it's fairly 5661  V. Smith (for Plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Adams  1 rough when it's -- when the tied is pretty high, it's  2 a riptide, like up the coast it's called riptides,  3 Gwax tseelixit.  4 Q   That refers to the current?  5 A   Yes.  To the current, the river.  6 Q   And who was it who told you about the location and  7 boundary of that territory?  8 A   David Wells and Jimmy Tait.  9 Q   Okay.  Now, I want to show you the final pocket in  10 this series of maps in the blue folder, and this is a  11 map marked Y in a circle, and next to that is Xsi  12 gallii gadsity and a Z in the circle, and next to that  13 Gwax tseelixit, and underneath those it says Sakum  14 Higookw.  Have you had a moment to look at that map?  15 A   Yes.  16 Q   Does that map accurately show, to your knowledge, the  17 location of the boundaries and the Xsi gallii gadsit  18 and Gwax tseelixit territories that you've just  19 described?  20 A   Yes.  21 MR. ADAMS:  My Lord, can that be marked as the next exhibit.  22 THE COURT:  Yes, 429.  23 THE REGISTRAR:  429.  24  25 EXHIBIT 429 - Pocket 6 - Map "Y" and "Z" Gwax  26 Tseelixit and Xsi gallii gadsit territory  27  2 8    MR. ADAMS:  29 Q   Now, starting on the west side of the river, that is  30 on the Xsi gallii gadsit territory, can you say when  31 you first went to that territory?  32 A   I was about 13.  33 Q   And that would have been about 1957?  34 A   Yes.  35 Q   Okay.  And who were you with at that time?  36 A  My family and David Wells and Jimmy Tait.  37 Q   And who is it you mean when you say "your family"?  38 A  Well, my father, and my mother, my brothers, and my  39 sisters.  40 Q   Okay.  How did you get there?  41 A   By train.  42 Q   And the train would go from Gitwangak?  43 A   Yes.  44 Q   And where would it stop?  45 A   There's a little station they call Ritchie about in --  46 right in the centre of the Sakum Higookw territory.  47 Q   And what time of year would you take that train? 5662  V. Smith (for Plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Adams  1 A In the first week of July until -- until last week of  2 August -- of August.  3 Q Where would you stay while you were there?  4 A David has a little cabin right above one of the  5 fishing sites, the rock up there, about half a  6 kilometre downstream from the Ritchie Station.  7 Q And that was David Wells who had that cabin?  8 A Yes.  9 Q Um-hum.  Was that the only building there?  10 A Yes.  Until we built a regular smokehouse there.  The  11 one he used was an open-air one, because he comes and  12 goes from that place.  13 Q So in addition to his log house, David Wells had an  14 open-air smokehouse there?  15 A Yes.  16 Q Okay.  And that was there when you first arrived about  17 1957?  18 A Yes.  19 Q And what kind of condition was it in then?  20 A There's -- the cabin itself was in good condition,  21 just the roof had to be repaired.  22 Q And what about the smokehouse?  23 A The smokehouse wasn't in good shape, so we built a new  24 one.  25 Q Okay.  Did both of those structures appear to you in  26 1957 to have been there for some time?  27 A Yes.  28 Q All right.  And is the log house still there?  29 A You could see the remains, it's caving in, it caved  30 in.  You could still see it from the highway.  31 Q Who was involved in building the smokehouse that you  32 say you built when you first arrived around 1957?  33 A My brother, and my mother, Jimmy and David.  34 Q Jimmy is Jimmy Tait?  35 A Yes.  36 Q And David is David Wells?  37 A Yes.  38 Q And did you fish at that site?  39 A Yes.  40 Q And what did you fish for?  41 A Sockeye.  42 Q When would you start doing that, when in the season?  43 A The month of July.  And we pull our net as long as the  44 pink start to arrive, we left our net usually a few  45 days after the pinks arrive and we pull our net for  46 the season.  47 Q When did the pinks start to arrive, what time of year? 5663  V. Smith (for Plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Adams  1  A  2  Q  3  A  4  Q  5  6  A  7  8  Q  9  A  10  11  12  13  14  Q  15  16  17  A  18  19  20  21  Q  22  A  23  THE  COURT  24  25  A  26  THE  COURT  27  A  28  THE  COURT  29  A  30  THE  COURT  31  A  32  THE  COURT  33  A  34  THE  COURT  35  MR.  ADAMS  36  Q  37  38  A  39  MR.  ADAMS  40  THE  TRANS  41  THE  COURT  42  MR.  ADAMS  43  Q  44  A  45  46  Q  47  A  Around first week of August they start to appear.  What kind of a net did you use?  Commercial net, sockeye net.  And what did you or people from your family do about  processing the fish at that site?  We smoke the fish and we jar it or can it, and we salt  it and then we also jar or can the half dried.  Who was responsible for doing that?  My mother does most of the work with my brother and I.  We carry water from chain to which she's canning.  We  get the wood for her, keep the fire going for her for  the pot to keep boiling, we have to keep the stove  hot.  When the pinks started coming and you pulled your nets  what would you do on that territory then?  That's the  end of the fishing, what else do you do there?  We -- after we pulled our net we stayed around for  another two or three weeks, and around that time after  the pinks show up it's time for us to go up and pick  berries to see if they're ready to be picked.  What kind of berries?  Blueberries.  :  Can I stop you for a minute.  You wouldn't use a  full commercial sockeye net, would you?  A full commercial?  :  Isn't a sockeye net 200 fathoms long?  Yes.  :  Twelve hundred feet?  Yes.  :  Could you use a net that long in the river?  No, no.  :  So you used a portion of a commercial sockeye net?  Yes.  About 10, 12 fathoms long.  :  I see, thank you.  The berries that you're calling blueberries, what's  the Gitksan name for those?  Maa'y.  :  Let me stop you for a second and get a spelling.  uATOR:  It's M-'-a-a-y.  :  Thank you.  And where would you go to get those?  We went east of where we were staying, towards Xsi  gwin axwt, and there's a trail going up Xsi gwin axwt.  What kind of a place is Xsi gwin axwt?  Xsi gwin axwt, it's a creek between the two mountains. 5664  V. Smith (for Plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Adams  1  Q  2  3  4  A  5  MR. ADAMS  6  THE COURT  7  THE TRANS  8  THE COURT  9  A  10  11  MR. ADAMS  12  Q  13  14  A  15  Q  16  17  A  18  19  Q  20  21  A  22  23  24  Q  25  A  26  Q  27  28  A  29  Q  30  31  A  32  33  Q  34  A  35  Q  36  37  A  38  39  40  Q  41  42  43  A  44  Q  45  A  46  Q  47  A  Do you have a number or spelling for Xsi gwin axwt?  I  know there's one on the map Y.  Do you know an English  name for Xsi gwin axwt?  No.  :  Okay.  :  Is that -  uATOR:  It's 315 on the list.  :  315, thank you.  Axwt means porcupine, so it must be Porcupine River,  Creek.  I have one that shows on the map Y as Quill Creek.  Does that ring any bells?  Might be, porcupine quills.  What would you do with the berries picked on the Xsi  gwin axwt?  We carried it back to the camp and we jar it or make  jam with it.  And how long would it take you to make a trip up onto  Xsi gwin axwt and back?  Takes us about three hours from where we were staying  to go up and three hours back, and we were usually  back by nightfall.  You would do that all in one day?  Yes.  Okay.  Now, at the end of the berry picking would you  go back to Gitwangak?  Yes.  And were there fall activities on this territory as  well?  Yes.  David and Jimmy stayed behind and they go after  beaver, beaver pelts, and meet after we were gone.  And again that's Jimmy Tait and David Wells?  Yes.  They stayed there most of the year.  And do you know from them how long they had been doing  that?  They never -- they never told us how long they've been  doing that, but I know they stay there most of their  lives, I guess.  And to your knowledge did they -- and from then did  they continue to do that after 1957 when you first  came to that territory?  Yes.  And for how long?  Until they both deceased.  And for David Wells that was around 1970?  Yes. 5665  V. Smith (for Plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Adams  1 Q   Do you recall when Jimmy Tait died?  2 A  About three or four years later.  3 Q   Did you ever hunt yourself on the Xsi gallii gadsit  4 territory?  5 A   Yes.  There's quite a few deer on the territory.  6 Q   And how old would you have been when you hunted for  7 deer there?  8 A   Since I went there and until today.  9 Q   You still hunt deer on that territory today?  10 A   Yes.  11 Q   Do you hunt anything else there?  12 A  Mostly deer.  13 Q   Um-hum.  Now, the summertime routine you've talked  14 about fishing and berry picking.  When in your life  15 did that start and finish as a regular routine?  16 A   Until I was 17 as a regular routine going there in the  17 summertime.  After that I got into commercial fishing  18 down the coast.  19 Q   Are there still blueberries on that Xsi gallii gadsit  20 territory?  21 A   No.  22 Q   Why not?  23 A   The brush, too many brush for the blueberries to grow  24 there.  If there's any it's very few, it's not worth  25 going up there.  2 6 Q   And can you say about when that brush grew up to the  27 point where you couldn't get those blueberries there?  28 A   Until I was about 16, I guess we couldn't.  We almost  29 went up there for nothing that year.  30 Q   So after you were 16 there was no point in doing that?  31 A   Yes.  32 Q   Okay.  Is there any way of making that possible again?  33 A   Yes.  In our tradition we usually burn the place over  34 again in order for the berries to come back.  The  35 berries usually come back about three years later  36 after you burn it, two or three years later after we  37 burn it.  38 Q   And why after you were about 16 did you no longer do  39 that?  40 A  We are restricted by the Province.  If they know that  41 we -- know we're burning it we could be charged, so we  42 didn't burn it.  43 Q   Now, I would like to cross over the river to the  44 territory we've already identified, Gwax tseelixit.  45 Is that a good place to fish?  46 A   Yes.  47 Q   Why? 5666  V. Smith (for Plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Adams  1  A  2  3  4  5  6  Q  7  8  A  9  10  11  12  13  Q  14  15  A  16  17  Q  18  19  A  20  21  Q  22  A  23  24  25  26  Q  27  28  A  29  Q  30  A  31  Q  32  A  33  Q  34  A  35  Q  36  37  A  38  MR.  ADAMS  39  40  41  THE  COURT  42  MR.  ADAMS  43  Q  44  A  45  THE  COURT  46  A  47  THE  COURT  It's -- the current is fairly strong and there's a  back eddie.  When there's a strong current there's  usually a back eddie, and that's where we set our net.  We don't need a pole to hold our net out, it's the  back eddie that keeps the net out straight.  Did you at some point switch sides from the Xsi gallii  gadsit side to the Gwax tseelixit side?  Gwax tseelixit, to us it's a whole area that goes  down.  We stayed on the Xsi gallii gadsit side before  we were upstream, but then we moved across the other  side downstream, but we stayed on the track side where  the -- or the good fishing side.  When was the move from the track side to the highway  side?  When I was about 13 we moved to -- 13 to 15, I forgot  what year, we moved across the highway side.  Well, I think your evidence was that you first came  there about 1957 when you were about 13?  Thirteen -- well, we moved there about when I was 15  then.  Okay.  And why the move?  It's easier access for us on the highway because some  of the local people bought pick-ups at that time and  we could hire somebody.  It's easier for us to load  and unload from the highway.  Did you continue to use the smokehouse on the track  side?  No.  We built a new one on the highway side.  And is that still there?  Yes.  And is it still in use?  Yes.  And who uses that?  Peter Turley.  And Peter Turley is the same person who holds the name  Giila'wa?  Yes.  :  At the time you arrived at Xsi gallii gadsit around  1957 was there a road connecting the highway with the  river side?  :  The river side?  The bank of the Skeena?  Yes.  There's a road on top of the bank of the Skeena.  :  On which side?  On the ease side of the Skeena.  :  We call the highway side? 5667  V. Smith (for Plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Adams  1  A  2  THE COURT  3  4  MR. ADAMS  5  Q  6  7  8  A  9  Q  10  11  A  12  13  Q  14  A  15  Q  16  17  18  A  19  Q  20  A  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  Q  28  29  A  30  31  32  Q  33  A  34  35  Q  36  37  A  38  39  Q  40  A  41  Q  42  43  A  44  45  46  47  Highway side.  :  I'm not sure whether Mr. Adams isn't asking you if  there's a highway on the other side, but I'm not sure.  No.  I'm on the east side of the river at Gwax  tseelixit.  Was there a road there between the highway  and the river bank?  At Gwax tseelixit, yes.  And to your knowledge how did that road come to be  there?  David and Jimmy made a road going down to the  smokehouse.  They built the road by hand.  That was David Wells and Jimmy Tait?  Yes.  Okay.  And did you at sometime make efforts to  identify that as Sakum Higookw's territory or Lax  skiik's territory?  Yes.  What did you do?  After David told us about that territory after he was  deceased we put up signs saying that Indian Reserve,  that's on the reserve, the Gwax tseelixit, and if we  leave it there's too many tourists going down, too  much waste all over the place, so we tried to protect  them from going down then to keep -- somebody keep  ripping the sign off.  Apart from people ripping it down, was the sign  effective?  Not too effective for somebody I guess, somebody knows  us that keeps ripping the sign off and the people keep  going in there without us being there.  Do you recall exactly what the sign said?  This is Eagle Clan's territory, or this is an Indian  reserve.  Do you know the name of the reserve that Gwax  tseelixit sits on.  I don't know what number it is, the reserve, Gwax  tseelixit.  But to your knowledge it's reserve land?  Yes.  And did you take further steps to try to identify that  as Eagle territory?  Yes.  Peter Turley and I, we discussed it and then he  said he had a friend in Terrace that's a welder and he  could help us out, and his friend built a gate for us  and he cemented the gate in with a padlock, a swinging  gate with a padlock in the centre. 566?  V. Smith (for Plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Adams  1  Q  2  A  3  4  Q  5  A  6  Q  7  A  8  Q  9  A  10  Q  11  A  12  13  14  Q  15  A  16  17  18  19  20  Q  21  A  22  Q  23  A  24  Q  25  A  26  Q  27  A  28  29  THE COURT  30  A  31  THE COURT  32  A  33  34  35  36  MR. ADAMS  37  Q  38  39  A  40  41  42  Q  43  A  44  THE TRANS  45  MR. ADAMS  46  Q  47  There's a little  beautiful little  Where was the gate in relation to the highway?  It's about 50 yards from the highway going down to the  smokehouse.  And has the gate been effective?  The lock keeps -- somebody keeps busting the lock off.  And are there people still going past that gate?  Yes.  With or without your permission?  Without.  And what are they doing there?  They go sport fishing down there.  beach a little below that, it's s  place.  Have you ever spoken to any of those people?  Yes.  We try to be flexible as much as we can.  If  they conduct themselves accordingly then we let them  stay there for the day, but if they're destructive or  just go down there for holiday, then we tell them to  keep on going.  And have you yourself said that to people?  Yes.  And what's been the result?  They just left without any hassle.  Do you still go yourself today to Gwax tseelixit?  Yes.  What do you do there?  I go sport fishing myself or set the net out on Xsi  gallii gadsit.  :  On which side?  Xsi gallii gadsit, across from --  :  On the other side of the river?  Yes.  On the track side, if I have a boat.  If not I  set out the net on the -- by the rock bluff there  below Gwax tseelixit.  They call it -- they call it  Wii al algyax miilet.  Is that the name of the rock bluff or the name of the  rock in the river?  The name of the -- there's a bunch of rocks at this  rock bluff, or part of it is a bunch of rocks sticking  out in the river.  And the name applies to both?  Yes.  The rock bluff there's a little spot.  jATOR:  W-i-1 a-1 a-1-g-y-a-x m-i-i-1-e-t.  What time of year do you go yourself to Gwax tseelixit  these days? 5669  V. Smith (for Plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Adams  1  A  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  Q  10  11  A  12  Q  13  14  A  15  16  17  18  Q  19  20  A  21  MR.  ADAMS  22  THE  TRANS  23  24  THE  COURT  25  MR.  ADAMS  26  Q  27  A  28  Q  29  A  30  THE  COURT  31  A  32  MR.  ADAMS  33  Q  34  35  A  36  Q  37  A  38  Q  39  40  A  41  42  43  Q  44  45  46  A  47  Q  I stopped there last week to see what the surveyor's  doing there.  It looks like they're going to build a  bridge across there.  I was told that they're going to  build a bridge across there, but I was there last year  and they pulled their stakes out, and Allen Johnson  and Peter Turley told me that they've resurveyed it  again, so I went down there last week to check it out,  and they did resurvey that.  Allen Johnson and Peter Turley are two people you've  described as being chiefs in your house?  Yes.  And from now on how frequently during the summer would  you expect to be at Gwax tseelixit?  I go by there almost every day and stopped off if I  have -- if I have time to spare.  I usually just stop  off and it's where I relax if nobody's around.  It's a  good place to relax.  I want to take you to one final territory.  Are you  familiar with the territory known as Xsu gwin k'aat?  Yes.  :  And just get the spelling of that, please.  jATOR:  X-s-u g-w-i-n k-'-a-a-t.  It's number 868 on  your word list.  :  868, thank you.  And is Xsu gwin k'aat a creek?  Yes.  And do you know an English name for Xsu gwin k'aat?  K'aat is cane, a walking cane.  :  Cane?  Yes.  Is there an English name for that creek as opposed to  a translation of the name?  I can't remember if Fiddler Creek.  Is that Fiddler Creek?  I think so, yes.  And can you describe in relation to the Skeena again  where that Xsu gwin k'aat territory is?  It's about five miles -- five to seven miles from  Ritchie Station downstream, on the west side of the  river, on the track side.  Is it further downstream from the two places we've  just been talking about, Xsi gallii gadsit and Gwax  tseelixit?  Yes.  Okay. 5670  V. Smith (for Plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Adams  1 Q   Who is it, who told you about the location of this  2 territory?  3 A   I went there with Jimmy Tait and David Wells beaver  4 hunting one spring.  5 Q   And did they tell you that territory belonged to Sakum  6 Higookw?  7 A   Yes.  8 Q   Okay.  I've opened in front of you map T, which is the  9 second pocket in the blue folder, which has a circle T  10 and then says Xsu gwin k'aat and below that Sakum  11 Higookw.  Have you had a chance to look at that map?  12 A   Yes.  13 Q   And does that map show, to the best of your knowledge,  14 the location of the Xsu gwin k'aat territory and its  15 boundaries?  16 A   Yes.  17 MR. ADAMS:  Could that be marked as the next exhibit, my Lord.  18 THE REGISTRAR:  430.  19 THE COURT:  What is it?  20 THE REGISTRAR:  430.  21 THE COURT:  Thank you.  22  23 EXHIBIT 430 - Pocket 2 - Map T Xsu gwin k'aat  24 territory  25  2 6 MR. ADAMS:  27 Q   Now, I want to change directions, Mr. Smith, and ask  28 you about your position as chief councillor at  29 Kitwancool and your parallel position as a hereditary  30 chief.  What is your function as the chief councillor  31 at Kitwancool?  32 A   I'm a mouth piece for the village for the hereditary  33 chiefs and their tribe.  I got elected by the people  34 within the village.  My function is to make sure that  35 administration is allocated in the perspective like  36 housing and make sure the money is spent within  37 housing, if we got funding for housing, and social  38 welfare, make sure that money is spent within the --  39 social welfare and different programmes.  40 Q   Anything else that the band council and you as chief  41 councillor is responsible for?  42 A   Yes.  We try to seek funding for our work programme  43 within the reserve.  44 Q   And where do you go for funding for that purpose?  45 A   To federal government, local District of Indian  46 Affairs.  47 Q   And what's your relationship with the band manager in 5671  V. Smith (for Plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Adams  1 Kitwancool?  2 A   The band manager is the person that does all the book  3 and goes after different programmes for the village,  4 administrates different funding, administrator, and my  5 job is to keep the band management in line by -- my  6 job plus the other councillors'.  7 Q   Now, you described yourself a moment ago in your  8 capacity as chief councillor as a mouth piece for the  9 chiefs.  Which chiefs would that be?  10 A   The hereditary chiefs of Kitwancool.  11 Q   From Kitwancool?  12 A   Yes.  13 Q   And what size of a group is that, the hereditary  14 chiefs from Kitwancool?  15 A   It's about 13 different seats in Kitwancool,  16 hereditary chiefs.  17 Q   Do you get instructions from that group?  18 A   Yes.  19 Q   How does that happen, how do you hear about the  20 instructions of the various hereditary chiefs?  21 A   If they see -- if there's a problem within the village  22 they come into the office and express their problem,  23 and if it's -- if it concerns the whole village, then  24 there's a public meeting where all the chiefs gather  25 and discuss that problem, and from out of the meeting  26 we analyse the meeting, then we go after what the  27 hereditary chiefs wanted.  28 Q   Does the band council in Kitwancool deal on its own  29 with questions involving territories?  30 A   Yes.  There's a different set.  We don't -- as the  31 chief councillor I don't deal with the territory, I  32 deal just inside the reserve itself.  33 Q   Let me ask the question again, because your answer  34 seemed to disagree with the premise of the question.  35 A   Oh.  36 Q   Does the band council on its own deal with matters  37 involving territory?  38 A   I don't understand the question.  39 Q   Can the band council take action on territories  40 without instructions from the hereditary chiefs?  41 A   No.  42 Q   Can the band council deal with feast business without  43 the hereditary chiefs?  44 A   No.  45 MR. MACKENZIE:  My Lord, I think it is time for me to rise and  46 object to this line of questioning dealing with the  47 Kitwancool Band Council and the Kitwancool hereditary 5672  V. Smith (for Plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Adams  1  2  MR.  ADAMS  3  4  THE  COURT  5  6  7  8  9  MR.  ADAMS  10  Q  11  12  13  14  15  16  THE  COURT  17  18  19  20  MR.  ADAMS  21  Q  22  23  A  24  Q  25  A  26  Q  27  28  A  29  Q  30  A  31  32  33  Q  34  35  A  36  37  38  Q  39  40  A  41  42  43  Q  44  45  A  46  Q  47  A  chiefs.  :  My Lord, that was my last question about the  Kitwancool Band Council, in any event.  :  I don't think that there's any harm in me hearing  the answer to those questions.  As you say, Mr.  Mackenzie, it's probably irrelevant in the view of the  pleadings.  I see no harm in having the information.  Go ahead.  My Lord, my submission after the fact on relevance  would be that it's instructive for you to hear in a  Gitksan Village what the relationship is between the  band council and hereditary chiefs, and the evidence  from this point will be what's the mirror image of  that situation in Gitwangak?  :  Well, I can see the relevance of Gitwangak, but I'm  not sure that Kitwancool is any different from  Winnipeg or any number of other equally attractive  Canadian cities, but I'm not going to stop you.  Mr. Smith, where does Sakum higookw come from in the  sense of which village does he belong to?  Gitwangak.  And you are a hereditary chief in Gitwangak?  Yes.  Do you give directions to the Gitwangak Band Council  in matters involving territory?  Yes.  And in what form do those directions take?  One of them was just recently where we instructed them  to see what they can do in regards to an injunction to  the proposed bridge at Gwax tseelixit.  And what have you directed the band council to do in  that connection?  See if they could file an injunction and prevent the  bridge from going across to Xsi gallii gadsit and Xsu  gwin k'aat.  And to your knowledge is the Gitwangak Band Council  acting on that direction?  I think they approached the tribal council and --  because the tribal council is more effective than the  band council itself.  The hereditary chiefs in Gitwangak use the band  council in their dealings with governments?  Yes.  Why is that?  Because the band council is recognized, the hereditary 5673  V. Smith (for Plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Adams  1 chiefs are not recognized by the federal or the  2 provincial.  3 Q   What do you mean when you say the hereditary chiefs  4 aren't recognized by the governments?  5 A  Well, if I go in and submit an application for job  6 creation in the village, then they'll ask -- they'll  7 turn my application down because there's no political  8 body within my house.  9 MR. ADAMS:  And in your view is this court case directed in part  10 at changing that recognition or lack of recognition?  11 MR. MACKENZIE:  Well, that's a question that may not be a  12 question of fact, my Lord.  13 THE COURT:  Is it not a —  14 MR. MACKENZIE:  In view of what —  15 THE COURT:  Does the answer not depend on the pleadings?  His  16 view may reflect the pleadings and it may not, Mr.  17 Adams.  18 MR. ADAMS:  19 Q   Are you a member of the Gitksan-Wet'suwet'en Council?  20 A   Yes.  21 Q   And in what capacity, what makes you a member of that  22 tribal council?  23 A   Because I'm from Gitwangak originally, hereditary  24 chief of Gitwangak.  25 THE COURT:  I'm not sure if I understand.  I don't know if the  26 witness understands what you meant by member.  Council  27 suggests there are members on a council, they probably  28 represent a lot more people.  I'm not sure of the  29 sense of what your question was asked or the way it  30 was understood.  31 MR. ADAMS:  32 Q   In what sense do you understand being a member of the  33 tribal council when you say that you are --  34 A   In the sense that I am the hereditary chief of  35 Gitwangak of the Gitksan.  36 Q   Does being a hereditary chief from Gitwangak  37 automatically in your mind make you a member of the  38 tribal council?  39 A   Yes.  4 0 THE COURT:  Okay.  41 MR. ADAMS:  42 Q   And what is the tribal council from the point of view  43 of a Gitwangak hereditary chief?  44 A   It goes after the funding for the hereditary chiefs  45 and hereditary chiefs' concerns, to go after different  4 6 funding.  47 Q   And what does it seek funding for on behalf of the 5674  V. Smith (for Plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Adams  1 hereditary chiefs?  2 A   It's like for health and welfare, for instance, it  3 involves all the different bands.  That if there's a  4 common problem to every village where health and  5 welfare is concerned; if the family has a problem, the  6 Province comes in and picks up the children from that  7 problemed family, whereas we don't have any funding  8 for the children to build a home for them, and the  9 Province gets the money from the federals, and we're  10 trying to get that funding back.  We're instructed  11 that the tribal council to get that funding back for  12 our children for us to look after the children, that's  13 one of the objectives of the tribal council.  14 Q   And if you get that funding back what will change  15 about the situation for the children?  16 A   It -- the children will know their own culture if we  17 raised children ourselves, whereby if they are raised  18 in a non-native home, then they lose their culture.  19 Q   If they're raised in a non-native home?  20 A   Yes.  They don't understand our culture.  21 THE COURT:  Let's take the afternoon adjournment, please, Mr.  22 Adams.  Thank you.  23 THE REGISTRAR:  Order in court:  24  2 5 (PROCEEDINGS ADJOURNED AT 3:00)  26  27 I hereby certify the foregoing to be  28 a true and accurate transcript of the  29 proceedings herein transcribed to the  30 best of my skill and ability  31  32  33  34  35 Graham D. Parker  36 Official Reporter  37 United Reporting Service Ltd.  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47 5675  V. Smith (for Plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Adams  1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20 xh2 V. Smith (for Plaintiffs)  21 (PROCEEDINGS RESUMED PURSUANT TO AFTERNOON RECESS)  22  23    THE REGISTRAR:  Order in court.  2 4    THE COURT:  Mr. Adams.  25 EXAMINATION IN CHIEF BY MR. ADAMS:  26 Q    Mr. Smith, does the tribal council have a function  27 in relation to drug and alcohol counsel?  28 A    Yes.  29 Q    What does it do in that connection?  30 A    We have a common problem between the villages  31 between Gitksan-Wet'suwet'en.  And we have a lot of  32 problem with our teenagers and the young generation  33 because there is really nothing there within the  34 community for them to do, so they turn to drugs and  35 alcohol.  And the hereditary chiefs got together, they  36 got united and expressed their concern to the tribal  37 council whereby the tribal council went after some  38 funding for the different villages and then they sent  39 the -- some of the people that have a problem to  40 different places where they could -- where they could  41 try and solve their problem.  It's an expensive ordeal  42 and then we are looking at a center of our own and we  43 had a meeting in Gitwangak.  About three or four years  44 ago we had a meeting in Gitwangak where we figure we  45 could have a center of our own within the -- within  46 the Gitksan territory.  We suggested that the  47 Simadiiks, Calvin and Allan, the Lax skiik Clan, we 5676  V. Smith (for Plaintiffs)  In Chief by Mr. Adams  1  2  3  Q  4  5  A  6  7  Q  8  A  9  Q  10  A  11  12  13  Q  14  15  A  16  THE COURT  17  THE WITNE  18  19  MR. ADAMS  20  Q  21  A  22  Q  23  24  25  A  26  Q  27  A  28  Q  29  A  30  Q  31  A  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  Q  43  44  45  A  46  Q  47  suggested -- offer them our piece of land right in  Gitwangak territory in Lax skiik's territory.  That was Calvin Hyzimes and Allan Johnson you were  talking about?  Yes.  Peter wasn't around at that time, he was still  staying in Terrace.  That's Peter Turley?  Yes.  Giila'wa?  Yes.  And the tribal council sought some funding to  build a place they call Wilp sisatxw, that's a House  of Purification and it is still under construction.  Is that what Wilp sisatxw means, House of  Purification?  Yes.  Where is it?  SS:  It is on the south side of Gitwangak River, Xsi  T'ax on the west side of Skeena.  Where in relation to the Village of Gitwangak?  Downstream from Gitwangak.  Are you one of the hereditary chiefs who approached  the tribal council in connection with drug and alcohol  problems?  Yes.  Okay.  Is the House of Purity, has that been built?  Yes, it is under construction.  It is under construction now?  Yes, it is finishing touches right now.  And what do you expect it to do once it is finished?  Well, we will admit some people that have a problem  and try and put them under some program where they  will purify themselves.  There is a sweat tank they  have got and stuff like -- it is like a hunter.  It  will be administered under the chief's direction.  It  is like a hunter before he goes out to hunt on the  territory whereby the hunter purifies themselves  before they go out on the hunting ground.  If he don't  do that, you don't get anything out of it.  So that's  the way this is going to operate, the House of  Purification.  And is the Sisatxw in Wilp sisatxw the same word  that is applied to the hunter's process of  preparation?  Yes.  And who, to your knowledge, is going to staff that  House of Purification? 5677  V. Smith (for Plaintiffs)  In Chief by Mr. Adams  1 A    Gitksan Tribal Council.  It is under the supervision  2 of the Gitksan Tribal Council, Gitksan-Wet'suwet'en  3 Tribal Council.  4 Q    Will there be counsellors?  5 A    Yes.  6 Q    And who will train them?  7 A    The Gitksan Tribal Council is funding some people to  8 be trained.  I don't know if they are trained yet or  9 not.  10 Q    Who will do the training?  11 A    The drug and alcohol program from the province, I  12 think.  I am not too familiar with the whole  13 operation.  All I am involved in is when -- for them  14 to build the House of Purification in Gitwangak.  15 Q    Does the tribal council have a function in relation  16 to people who are charged with fisheries and other  17 offences?  18 A    Yes.  19 Q    And what is that function?  20 A    They look -- they look after the legal aid and they  21 have got legal aid people working for them.  22 Q    What can you say in general about the connection  23 between the interests of the hereditary chiefs and the  24 functions of the tribal council?  25 A    The hereditary chiefs meet in a certain village.  26 Most of the time the hereditary chiefs from different  27 bands meet in Gitanmaax.  It is sort of a central area  28 from the surrounding villages.  Hereditary chiefs  29 unite themselves and they express their concerns to  30 the tribal council.  And they expect the tribal  31 council to follow up on the concerns, different  32 concerns.  33 Q    Does the tribal council take direction from those  34 hereditary chiefs?  35 A    Yes.  36 Q    Does it take direction in matters involving  37 territory?  38 A    Yes.  39 Q    And feasts?  40 A    Yes.  41 Q    And what about land claims?  42 A    Yes.  43 Q    And can you give an example of that process of the  44 hereditary chiefs giving direction to the tribal  45 council in relation to territory and land claims?  46 A   A few years back I was in one of the meetings where  47 they were concerned about the logging operations on 567?  V. Smith (for Plaintiffs)  In Chief by Mr. Adams  1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  MR. ADAMS  THE COURT  MR.  THE  MR.  THE  THE  their territories and seen that the whole resource is  being wiped out.  The province keeps saying that the  trees will -- they are going to replant the trees.  But the hereditary chiefs think that the next  generation will grow old and have nothing to do by the  time the planted trees are mature, and their children  will grow old before the trees mature.  So the concern  is to try and slow down the logging and save something  for our children to live on.  And they have instructed  the tribal council to follow up on the concerns.  And,  in turn, the tribal council went and did some research  after those few meetings that they have and it all  boils down right up to today in this court case.  My Lord, I'm, if not finished, very close to being  finished.  I wonder if I might have overnight to  repair my voice and to review my notes.  Well, yes, I think we should always accomodate  counsel who are in extremis.  You are asking to  adjourn now until tomorrow morning?  If that's agreeable.  Yes, certainly we will adjourn.  There is no  objection, Mr. Mackenzie?  MACKENZIE:  No, My Lord.  COURT:  Okay, ten o'clock tomorrow morning.  REGISTRAR:  Order in court, court will adjourn at 10 a.m.  tomorrow.  I hereby certify the foregoing to  be a true and accurate transcript  of the proceedings herein,  transcribed to the best of my  skill and ability.  ADAMS  COURT  LISA REID, OFFICIAL REPORTER  UNITED REPORTING SERVICE LTD. 5679  V. Smith (for Plaintiffs)  In Chief by Mr. Adams  1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47

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