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Delgamuukw Trial Transcripts

[Proceedings of the Supreme Court of British Columbia 1988-03-09] British Columbia. Supreme Court Mar 9, 1988

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 4319  1 Vancouver, B.C.  2 March 9, 1988  3  4 (PROCEEDINGS RESUMED PURSUANT TO ADJOURNMENT)  5  6 THE REGISTRAR:  In the Supreme Court of British Columbia, this  7 Wednesday March the 9th, 1988.  Calling Delgamuukw  8 versus Her Majesty the Queen, at bar, my lord.  9 MR. GRANT:  Before my friend proceeds, my lord, Mr. Mitchell has  10 further assisted us by arranging for an updated list  11 and addendum to the word list, and I have a copy for  12 the court --  13 THE COURT  14 MR. GRANT  15 THE COURT  Thank you.  -- And my friends.  Thank you.  16 THE REGISTRAR:  I caution the witness you are still under oath.  17  18 DORA WILSON-KENNI, Resumed:  19  2 0 THE COURT:  Mr. Mackenzie.  21 MR. MACKENZIE:  Thank you, my lord.  My lord, I've distributed  22 some other materials that I may be referring to just  23 before the court convened to save some time in the  24 distribution.  25 Now, my lord, I have a matter from yesterday which  26 I wish to raise.  I may have unintentionally misspoke,  27 as that word has been used, with respect to certain  28 aspects of the Spookw territory.  And you will recall  29 that I suggested to the witness that the Spookw Seeley  30 Lake territory extended into the Kitsegukla Indian  31 Reserve, and my friend questioned that.  And then I  32 continued and gave some directions referring to the  33 Skeena crossing and the confluence of the Skeena and  34 Kitsegukla River.  I find the Kitsegukla Reserve to  35 which I was referring is to the north.  As my friend  36 rightly pointed out it is to the north of that  37 confluence.  And just to make that clear, my lord, I'd  38 ask your lordship and the witness to refer to the map  39 of the Spookw territory at tab 7 of volume 1 of the  40 document book.  This is Exhibit 336.  41 MR. GRANT:  For identification.  42 MR. MACKENZIE:  And I'll — just to set this matter at rest I'll  43 refer to the Exhibit 336 in the southwest portion of  44 this Spookw territory where it can be seen that the  45 territory goes into an area labelled as Kitsegukla  46 Indian Reserve Number 2, and the wording that -- label  47 going down the -- start at the left side of the Skeena 4320  1 River.  2 THE COURT:  Yes, I have it.  3 MR. MACKENZIE:  Yes, my lord.  So I just draw that to Mrs.  4 Wilson-Kenni's attention.  That's the Kitsegukla  5 Indian Reserve Number 2 is the Indian reserve to which  6 I was referring.  7  8 CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR. MACKENZIE:  9 Q   Are you familiar with that Indian reserve, Mrs.  10 Wilson-Kenni?  11 A   Yes.  12 Q   Yes.  13 THE COURT:  Is it all on the non-highway side of the river the  14 reserve, or is it on both sides of the river?  15 MR. MACKENZIE:  If I could answer from the map itself, my lord,  16 without preventing the witness from answering, the map  17 appears to show the reserve as proceeding on both  18 sides of the river, at least to some extent --  19 THE COURT:  Yes.  20 MR. MACKENZIE:  — In that area.  There appears to be a dot and  21 dashed line which seems to distinguish it at that  22 point from the other district lots.  23 THE COURT:  All right.  Is there — is that line across the  24 river just above Indian, does that intend to depict a  25 bridge?  26 MR. MACKENZIE:  I don't know what the reason for that would be.  27 THE COURT:  There's no bridge there, is there?  28 MR. MACKENZIE:  There is no bridge there.  The bridge at Skeena  29 crossing is the railroad bridge, as your lordship  3 0 knows.  31 THE COURT:  That's further south.  32 MR. MACKENZIE:  Yes, it is.  And that's why my friend rightly  33 raised the question that suggests I made incorrectly.  34 THE COURT:  All right.  35 MR. MACKENZIE:  I might say that Kitsegukla Indian Reserve  36 appears, but it's difficult to see on Exhibit 5, it  37 appears as a shaded area on Exhibit 5, which is an  38 exhibit in these proceedings.  And I have an  39 enlargement of Exhibit 5 at tab 13 of volume 1 of the  40 document book, but I don't refer your lordship to that  41 at this time.  42 THE COURT:  Where do you say the easterly boundary of the  43 Kitsegukla Indian Reserve Number 2 is?  44 MR. MACKENZIE:  Well, my lord, looking at the map Exhibit 336.  4 5 THE COURT:  Yes.  46 MR. MACKENZIE:  And it may be useful here to look at a little  47 clearer map which shows the Kitsegukla Indian Reserve, 4321  1 and that is at tab 6 of document book number 2.  2 THE COURT:  Tab 6 of your book.  3 MR. MACKENZIE:  Yes.  And this is an overlay of Exhibit 5.  4 Exhibit 5 is the boundaries of the Gitksan  5 Wet'suwet'en.  It's an overlay on a map of the area.  6 And your lordship will be able to look at the map and  7 see the Indian reserve boundaries shown just below  8 where Carnaby and around where Carnaby appears on that  9 map, the word Carnaby, and there's an indication I.R.,  10 Indian reserve.  And my instructions as far as these  11 two maps indicate is that that is the location of the  12 Indian reserve.  And transferring that to Exhibit 336  13 I would say the dot and the dashed north south line on  14 the -- does your lordship have that?  If your lordship  15 looks at the southwestern tip of Spookw territory  16 you'll see Carnaby and then a shaded area indicating  17 I.R..  18 THE COURT:  No.  Sorry.  19 MR. MACKENZIE:  And then if you go further down the river you'll  20 see further shaded areas which indicate the rest.  21 THE COURT:  When you say shaded you mean cross-hatched.  Not  22 cross-hatched, but diagonally hatched lines.  You say  23 those are the boundary of the reserves?  24 MR. MACKENZIE:  Yes, my lord.  25 THE COURT:  If that's so then Kitsegukla Reserve Number 2 only  26 crosses the river at its -- at its southeast corner,  27 does it?  28 MR. MACKENZIE:  Yes, my lord, it does cross the river slightly,  29 as you can see on the interrogatory map, at its  30 southeast corner.  31 THE COURT:  Yes.  All right.  This volume, document book number  32 2 re Dora Kenni, that was your book, was it Mr. --  33 MR. GRANT:  No.  No.  This is further proliferation from my  34 friend.  I just received this today.  35 THE COURT:  This is A.G.B.C?  36 MR. GRANT:  A.G.B.C. number 2.  It was listed — mine is  37 plaintiffs.  Maybe that was just for my copy.  38 THE COURT:  Yes.  Thank you.  And the blue one?  39 MR. MACKENZIE:  The blue one is a photograph book I handed up to  40 your lordship.  I'm going to be referring to that  41 quickly later on in my submissions today.  42 THE COURT:  Yes.  All right.  Can I put this map away?  43 MR. MACKENZIE:  Yes, my lord.  Exhibit 336, yes.  44 I have another matter from yesterday, my lord.  45 Your lordship will recall we mentioned the commission  46 evidence of Jesse Sterritt, whose chief name is  47 Wiigoobl, and I have the reference now.  And I have 1  2  3  THE  4  MR.  5  THE  6  MR.  7  THE  8  MR.  9  10  11  12  13  14  THE  15  MR.  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  THE  23  24  MR.  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  THE  34  MR.  35  36  37  38  THE  39  MR.  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  THE  4322  filed a copy of that page at tab 18 of document book  number 2.  That is --  COURT:  When was it yesterday?  MACKENZIE:  Yes, my lord.  It was in reference to —  COURT:  Oh, yes, I have it.  Thank you.  MACKENZIE:  Wiigoobl's claim to Seeley Lake, my lord.  COURT:  Exhibit 7OB.  MACKENZIE:  70B, page 60 — page 64.  And that appears in  document book number 2 at tab 18.  And specifically I  refer your lordship to line 14 and 15 following on  that reference as tab 18 of document book number 2.  That's Mr. Rush in chief at page 64, line 15.  Does  your lordship have that reference?  COURT:  Yes.  I wanted you —  MACKENZIE:  "I wanted you to tell me about the territory by  Seeley Lake.  Was there a territory used by the House  of Wiigoobl by Seeley Lake.  The lake that is known as  Seeley was referred to as Wiigoobl Lake."  And Mrs.  Sterritt goes on later in her commission to talk  further about that area saying that that was part of  her house territory.  COURT:  This passage of course doesn't say that.  You say it  said something else, does it?  MACKENZIE:  Yes, my lord.  I'll just get that quickly for  your lordship.  And, my lord, on page 65 -- and I'll  make a copy of this for the court.  At page 65 in that  same volume at line 38 Mr. Rush asks Mrs. Sterritt was  this territory -- well, he talks about Seeley Lake.  Mrs. Sterritt is talking about Seeley Lake and she  says, "They just took it.  They named it Seeley Lake."  Line 38 Mr. Rush says, "Was this territory of Wiigoobl  Lake", and he's referred to that just before.  COURT:  Yes.  MACKENZIE:  "Was this known to belong to the House of  Wiigoobl?"  The answer is, "It was known by everyone  in the area that this was Wiigoobl's territory and  nobody went there unless he gave them permission."  COURT:  Yes.  Thank you.  MACKENZIE:  And that's the reference to Seeley Lake.  I'll  hand a copy to the court to insert at that point in  the document book.  Now, another matter from yesterday, my lord.  Now,  your lordship will recall that there was a discussion  about interrogatory 24 in the Stephen Robinson  interrogatories.  Those appear at tab 6 of document  book number -- number 1.  It's Exhibit 334.  COURT:  Interrogatory 24. 4323  1 MR. MACKENZIE:  And it's interrogatory 24, page nine.  2 THE COURT:  Yes.  3 MR. MACKENZIE:  And if you recall, my lord, yesterday your  4 lordship and Mr. Grant interpreted the last sentence  5 on that page to mean that Stephen Robinson was  6 speaking for -- yes.  Mr. Grant interpreted, and the  7 Chief Justice agreed, that that was inartistically  8 phrased.  Your lordship said that was inartistically  9 phrased and should mean I also speak as Medigmgyet for  10 the members of Guuhadak.  And that was the  11 interpretation that was placed on that.  12 MR. GRANT:  The witness -- just to be clear, the witness said  13 that, my lord.  Initially the witness has said it.  14 THE COURT:  I think I merely commented it was open to that  15 construction.  16 MR. GRANT:  Yes.  And the witness explained it.  17 MR. MACKENZIE:  So I'll just refer the witness to that passage.  18 Q   And, Mrs. Wilson-Kenni, at that point in Mr.  19 Robinson's affidavit he spoke about the members of  2 0 Medigmgyet's house.  Now, what is your evidence about  21 the House of Medigmgyet?  22 A   I told you already yesterday.  23 Q   Yes.  You say that that is Guuhadak?  24 A   That's the way I understand it.  25 Q   I see.  And so do you say now that Stephen Robinson  26 was speaking for members of the House of Guuhakad?  27 MR. GRANT:  In this court case?  28 MR. MACKENZIE:  In this interrogatory which was sworn on  29 February 3, 1987.  30 A  What was your question?  31 MR. GRANT:  Well, just a moment, before the witness answers, my  32 lord.  Before the -- I object.  He says in here I also  33 speak as Medigmgyet for the members of Medigmgyet  34 house.  The witness has explained that's Guuhadad's  35 house.  When he says are you speaking for Guuhadak in  36 this interrogatory it's obvious from an examination of  37 this interrogatory, for example, he is — he isn't  38 describing the members of Guuhadak's house.  I think  39 the question is misleading to the witness.  If my  40 friend wants to ask her about that he should refer her  41 to the other relevant documents, which I anticipate  42 will be another interrogatory.  43 MR. MACKENZIE:  My friend has misstated my question.  44 Q   And my question is do you say that Stephen Robinson  45 here speaks for some of the members of the House of  46 Guuhadak in this interrogatory?  47 THE COURT:  Well, isn't that a matter of construction of this 9 THE  10 MR.  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19 THE  2 0 MR.  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35 THE  3 6 MR.  37  38  39  40  41 THE  42  4 3 MR.  44 THE  4 5 MR.  46  47  MR.  MR.  4324  document?  MACKENZIE:  Yes, my lord.  I'll move on then.  COURT:  Hardly fair to ask the witness to have to do that.  MACKENZIE:  Yes, my lord.  Referring to tab 19 of document  book number --  Before my friend proceeds to another area, my lord,  I would refer you to 4283, lines two to four, of  yesterday's transcript in which the question is yes -■  I'm sorry.  Page 4283, line two and three -- two to four of  yesterday's volume 69 in which the question is.  MR.  THE  MR.  MR. GRANT  COURT:  GRANT:  A  Yes.  Now, do you know of a house with  the name Medigmgyet?  No, I don't.  It's Guuhadak."  That was before the exchange between the court and  myself.  COURT:  Yes.  MACKENZIE:  Well, my lord, I now refer to the  interrogatories of Thomas Wright, which appear at the  document book number 2, tab 19.  First the document is  the affidavit of Norman Moore who is a translator.  And that's sworn February 20, 1987.  And the next  document is the affidavit of Thomas Wright, who is  Guuhadak.  GRANT:  Before his death.  MACKENZIE:  And was Guuhadak before his death.  And that  affidavit was sworn on February 20, 1987.  And I draw  your lordship's attention to the fact that Stephen  Robinson's affidavit was sworn on February 3, 1987.  And Stephen Robinson's affidavit, as your lordship  will recall, is at tab 6 of document 1, document book  number 1.  COURT:  When did — when did Thomas Wright die?  GRANT:  He died in the fall, I believe, of this past year,  my lord.  He died during the long break of the case.  It was October or November, was it?  I believe the  witness will know.  A   Somewhere there, yes.  COURT:  So he was alive when Mr. Robinson swore his  interrogatory?  GRANT:  In February, yes.  Yes.  COURT:  All right.  MACKENZIE:  And referring to interrogatory number 9 of  Thomas Wright -- of Chief Guuhadak, my lord, at page  two following the affidavit, "State the time, when, 4325  1 where and by what manner you became a hereditary chief  2 of the Gitksan.  I took the name Guuhadak when Beal,  3 B-E-A-L, Muldoe died.  I do not recall the year, but  4 my wife was still alive and I already had many  5 children."  6 And interrogatory number 10.  "When did you become  7 head of the house of Guuhadak?  See answer to question  8 nine."  9 And referring to interrogatory number 22, my lord,  10 which is page four.  "What is the nature of your  11 authority as hereditary chief of your house?  It is  12 the law" -- does your lordship have that?  13 THE COURT:  Yes.  14 MR. MACKENZIE:  "It is the law of the Gitksan society to have  15 the head chief speak for everyone in the house on  16 important matters."  17 So, my lord, I would submit that those documents  18 and interrogatories be marked as an exhibit.  19 THE COURT:  Are you seeking to put in numbers 9, 10 and 22?  20 MR. MACKENZIE:  Yes, my lord.  21 THE COURT  22 MR. GRANT  2 3 THE COURT  2 4 MR. GRANT  2 5 THE COURT  And the affidavits.  Together with the translation and affidavit?  Yes.  That will be one exhibit?  Yes, that will be one exhibit.  This is 337.  26 THE REGISTRAR:  337, my lord.  Tab 19, book 2.  27  28 (EXHIBIT 337:  Affidavit of Norman Moore, Affidavit of  29 Thomas Wright and Interrogatories 9, 10 and 22)  30  31 MR. MACKENZIE:  So as your lordship suggests, I'll leave those  32 exhibits for later argument.  33 THE COURT:  Very well.  Well, sorry.  Then that means the whole  34 of this tab is Exhibit 337, doesn't it?  35 MR. MACKENZIE:  Yes.  Tab 19 of document book number 2.  3 6 THE COURT:  Thank you.  37 MR. GRANT:  Mr. Wright's commission evidence -- there is  38 commission evidence of him as well, my lord, which I  39 believe has already been filed with the court.  4 0 THE COURT:  All right.  Thank you.  41 MR. MACKENZIE:  Another matter, my lord, referring to document  42 book number -- tab number 3.  4 3 THE COURT:  Which volume?  44 MR. MACKENZIE:  Document book number 1, tab number 3.  That —  45 I'm not going to be going into detail with that, my  46 lord.  Referring to it in the table of contents that  47 was the Land Title Office Prince Rupert file relating MR.  4326  1 to lot 1062.  And, my lord, I request that be marked  2 as an exhibit, if necessary for identification,  3 depending on my friend's response, and we can obtain  4 certified copies if my friend requires that.  5 THE COURT:  Any problems, Mr. Grant?  6 MR. GRANT:  Well, my lord, with respect to the first few  7 documents I have no objection.  I -- that is right up  8 to the certificate of indefeasible title of Lloyd  Gething.  So that would be -- I have right up to page  eight of the Fax number.  That would be pages three to  page eight of the Fax number.  That would be the first  six pages, my lord.  My objection relating to the lis  pendens and the other documents, the statement of  claim are that they are not relevant and should not be  filed.  It's not at all relevant to the proceedings  herein regarding this matter.  It doesn't -- they  don't refer to this witness, and I would object to  them on that basis only.  But the first six documents  I have no objection to them being tendered, because I  know my friend can get them certified.  I don't think  that's necessary.  MACKENZIE:  Can I clarify my friend's objection, my lord.  I  presume my friend is objecting to the documents from  page nine to page 15, or I beg your pardon, page nine  to page 14.  Is that correct, Mr. Grant?  GRANT:  Just a moment now.  Well --  COURT:  Well, do you really need anything more, Mr.  Mackenzie, than the Crown grant and certificate of  indefeasible title?  MACKENZIE:  No, my lord.  I'm prepared to forego exhibiting  pages nine to 15.  And I have no -- page 29 does show  the transfer of title, but I take your lordship's  point, and I have no strong attachment to the  documents following page nine.  COURT:  Well, the Crown grant —  GRANT:  That will be the first page.  COURT:  Which is — well, I take — I think the — the first  six pages, I think --  GRANT:  Yes.  COURT:  — Of the Crown grant.  GRANT:  Page three to page eight.  COURT:  Three to eight.  Pages three to eight.  And leave  out nine to 15.  GRANT:  My lord, I don't know what the relevance of this  subdivision plan is following --  COURT:  I don't know either.  GRANT:  It hasn't even been referred to by my friend, and my  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  2 6 MR.  27 THE  28  29  3 0 MR.  31  32  33  34  35 THE  3 6 MR.  37 THE  38  3 9 MR.  4 0 THE  41 MR.  42 THE  43  4 4 MR.  45  4 6 THE  4 7 MR. 1  2  THE  3  4  MR.  5  MR.  6  THE  7  8  MR.  9  THE  10  MR.  11  THE  12  THE  13  14  THE  15  MR.  16  17  18  19  20  MR.  21  MR.  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  THE  29  30  31  32  33  MR.  34  35  36  THE  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  MR.  44  MR.  45  46  47  4327  friend does --  COURT:  I think pages three to eight.  And where is the  certificate?  GRANT:  It's at tab 2, I believe, my lord.  MACKENZIE:  The certificate is Exhibit 326, my lord.  COURT:  All right.  So all we need then is three to eight  and 29 to 30, isn't it?  MACKENZIE:  I would be satisfied with that, my lord.  COURT:  All right.  MACKENZIE:  Or I'll agree to that, I mean.  COURT:  Yes.  That will be Exhibit 338.  REGISTRAR:  Exhibit 338, book 1, tab 3, pages three to eight  and 29 to 30.  COURT:  Yes.  GRANT:  And that's the reference at the top.  Those page  numbers are the reference to the Fax numbers.  (EXHIBIT 336  Tab 3, Book 1, pages 3-8 and 29-30)  MACKENZIE:  Thank you.  And, my lord —  GRANT:  My lord, just a procedural matter, because I face  the same problem with the other document book.  To  avoid further problems I anticipate, and I wanted to  confirm this, that that means from the exhibit book  itself the other pages will be taken out so that we're  not building up a huge volume of things that aren't  exhibits.  Is that what you --  COURT:  Well, I hadn't projected myself forward that far,  but if at the end of the trial there are documents in  the books that haven't been marked as exhibits then,  yes, I suppose they should be taken out.  Although I  don't know that it's --  GRANT:  Well, I would be proposing those documents in my  exhibit book, that I will do that at the end of this  witness actually so it's not totally --  COURT:  Well, I'm going to leave it to counsel.  I'm not  going to insist they be taken out at this stage.  They  might be used with respect to some other witness.  At  the end of the day the only ones I'll consider are  those which have been marked.  If counsel want to  purify the system by purging of it all unmarked  documents they're free to do so.  GRANT:  Thank you, my lord.  MACKENZIE:  My lord, yesterday I referred to and read in  interrogatory number 27 of Mr. Stephen Robinson, and  that is not included in the binders, and so I would  hand interrogatory number 27 to your lordship to be 4328  1 included at tab 6 --  2 THE COURT:  Thank you.  3 MR. MACKENZIE:  — Of the first volume.  4 THE COURT:  Thank you.  5 MR. MACKENZIE:  That was referred to yesterday, and —  6 THE REGISTRAR:  Which book?  7 MR. MACKENZIE:  First volume.  Volume 1, tab 6, please.  8 THE REGISTRAR:  Okay.  9 THE COURT:  Was — was the affidavit marked as an exhibit?  10 THE REGISTRAR  11 MR. MACKENZIE  12 THE REGISTRAR  Whose affidavit, my lord?  This is Stephen Robinson's affidavit.  Yes.  Affidavit tab 6 at February 3rd with  13 interrogatory number 24,  14 MR. MACKENZIE  15 THE REGISTRAR  16 MR. MACKENZIE  That would be exhibit --  334.  -- 334.  So this interrogatory number 27 will  17 follow that, my lord.  18 THE COURT:  Yes.  19 MR. MACKENZIE:  I handed up interrogatory number 10, my lord,  20 which should also be placed in the same tab 6 in  21 volume 1.  22 THE COURT:  I'm still not sure I have this precisely correct,  23 Mr. Mackenzie.  What numbers of interrogatories of Mr.  24 Stephen Robinson do you say is now in?  25 MR. MACKENZIE:  Stephen Robinson's interrogatory —  26 interrogatories appear at tab 6 of document book  27 volume 1, and the affidavit and interrogatory 24,  28 pages six to nine, have been marked as Exhibit 334,  29 and the map -- the map which follows.  30 THE COURT:  I'm sorry.  I don't seem to have interrogatory 24 in  31 my book.  32 MR. MACKENZIE:  Well, my lord, we've referred to it at length  33 yesterday so I think it perhaps follows the map pocket  34 in your --  35 THE COURT:  That's very clever if it is.  No, I don't have it.  36 There was something that followed a map pocket, but I  37 think that was tab 6, wasn't it?  Oh, we're in tab 6.  38 MR. MACKENZIE:  Yes.  We're at tab 6, my lord, and interrogatory  39 24 was at pages following six to nine.  40 THE COURT:  What's the difference between tab 6 and seven?  41 MR. MACKENZIE:  Tab 7, my lord, as your lordship will recall,  42 that's the affidavit that was sent to Canada.  43 THE COURT:  All right.  44 MR. MACKENZIE:  And had the map that was different from one  45 received by the province.  4 6 THE COURT:  All right.  Then under tab 6 we should have  47 interrogatory 10 -- 4329  MACKENZIE:  Yes, my lord.  COURT:  — 13, 24 and 27?  MACKENZIE:  Yes, my lord.  COURT:  All right.  GRANT:  And 59C, my lord.  MACKENZIE:  And 59C which is separate.  Exhibit 335.  GRANT:  Yes, but it's in that tab.  THE REGISTRAR:  It's in that tab.  Are these to be marked  along --  MACKENZIE:  Those will be part of 334.  My lord, can I  assist your lordship further with that?  I think your  lordship correctly summarized it.  COURT:  Yes.  All right.  MACKENZIE:  And I'll just confirm that with Madam Registrar  at the break.  COURT:  All right.  MACKENZIE:  Q   Now, Mrs. Wilson-Kenni, we finished with those  preliminary details.  Yesterday we were speaking about  a band council -- and you mentioned that a band  council bylaw with respect to fishing was in  preparation, is that correct?  A   Yes.  Q   Yes.  And what is the purpose of that bylaw, or that  draft bylaw?  A   I can't remember the details of it, but it had to do  with the -- the fishing -- the protection of the  fishing sites, and the management of it.  Q   Is that bylaw similar to the fishing bylaws passed by  other bands in 1986?  GRANT:  Well, my lord, I'd ask my friend to give the witness  an opportunity to look at the --  MACKENZIE:  Yes.  GRANT:  Any such bylaw before —  MACKENZIE:  Yes, I think that's reasonable.  GRANT:  — She answers.  MACKENZIE:  Yes.  Q   Tab 9 of document book number 1 there is a -- there's  a copy of the Gitwangak Band's fishing bylaw.  It  follows an affidavit of Glen Williams.  It's quite a  long ways into that tab.  It's about 13 pages --  starts about 13 pages before the end of the tab.  You  start at the end of the tab you'll see the end of the  bylaw and carry on up to page one.  Do you have that,  Mrs. Wilson-Kenni?  A   Is this it?  Q   You see the bylaw there?  1  MR.  2  THE  3  MR.  4  THE  5  MR.  6  MR.  7  MR.  8  THE  9  10  MR.  11  12  13  THE  14  MR.  15  16  THE  17  MR.  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  MR.  32  33  MR.  34  MR.  35  MR.  36  MR.  37  MR.  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47 4330  1 A   Yes.  2 Q   Now, that's a bylaw -- does your lordship have that  3 bylaw?  4 THE COURT:  Yes.  5 MR. MACKENZIE:  6 Q   This is -- that is a bylaw for the preservation,  7 management, conservation and use of fish on the  8 reserve and traditional lands, rivers and waterways of  9 the Gitwangak Band.  Is the bylaw you were speaking  10 about at Hagwilget generally similar to that?  I  11 haven't had a chance to look over the whole bylaw, but  12 I'm just asking whether it deals with fishing on the  13 reserve, on the Hagwilget Reserve, your bylaw?  14 A   Yes.  To do with fishing on the Hagwilget Reserve.  15 Q   And do you recall whether the bylaw, your Hagwilget  16 bylaw is a bylaw prepared by the Gitksan Wet'suwet'en  17 Tribal Council Association?  I'm reading from the  18 third paragraph to this bylaw to which we're referring  19 at tab 9.  20 MR. GRANT:  And its member bands.  21 MR. MACKENZIE:  Yes.  22 A   There's a lot of whereases and everything.  I can't  23 remember all of it.  It's -- it could be worded  24 similar to that.  25 Q   Thank you.  Now, I asked you yesterday also about Band  26 Council Resolutions relating to traplines, and your  27 testimony was you hadn't seen one such as that, is  28 that correct?  29 A   No, I haven't personally seen.  30 Q   Referring to document book number 2, tab 11.  That  31 document book number 2, tab 11 contains documents  32 relating to a trapline which is now held by Charles  33 Austin.  And there are -- five pages into the tab  34 there's a Band Council Resolution that folds out.  35 It's an eight and a half by 14 page.  This is -- this  36 is a Band Council Resolution of the Hagwilget Band  37 dated February 1, 1977.  And could you identify Walter  38 Joseph's signature on that copy of that document, Mrs.  39 Wilson-Kenni?  40 A   I haven't seen his signature enough times to say that  41 was definitely his.  I'm sorry.  42 Q   In 1977 he was the chief councillor, was he, of the  43 Hagwilget Band?  44 A   I think so.  45 Q   Yes.  And have you seen a document similar to this, or  46 this B.C.R., Band Council Resolution relating to  47 traplines? 4331  No, this is the first time I've seen this one.  You haven't seen any other documents similar to this?  Not with -- I don't remember seeing one like this.  This is the form in which Band Council Resolutions are  prepared at the Hagwilget Band?  Yes.  Yes.  It's 1977 so I didn't see it then.  That was before your time.  There's another signature  here.  Looks like Francis Pierre.  Was that another  member of the Hagwilget Band, that person?  Yes.  And was that gentleman -- it is a gentleman, is it  not?  Yes.  Mr. Pierre a band councillor of the Hagwilget Band in  1977?  He -- I'm not too sure when he was on council, what  year.  He was on the council though, was he?  I think so.  Yes.  And the reference to Charlie Austin, that's your  father, your stepfather, is it not?  Yes.  And does your stepfather Charlie Austin have a  trapline near Morris Lake?  I think so.  \FZIE:  My lord, I would submit that document as the  next exhibit.  30 THE REGISTRAR:  All the documents in there?  31 THE COURT:  Mr. Grant.  32 MR. MACKENZIE:  No.  The Band Council Resolution dated February  33 1, 1977.  34 THE REGISTRAR:  Tab 11, book 2.  35 MR. GRANT:  I -- my lord, I know we've been moving along here,  36 and the trend is towards admissibility.  I think --  37 just think it's for a very limited purpose if it is  38 admitted.  She has never seen or can't identify this  3 9           document.  40 THE COURT:  It isn't proven.  It can only go in if you don't  41 object.  42 MR. GRANT:  I can't see how, that's the position I take.  I  43 can't see how this document is admissible through this  44 witness.  45 THE COURT:  Why wouldn't it be the subject of a notice to admit  46 and save all this time.  47 MR. GRANT:  I was going to ask my friend, and I presume this is  1  A  2  Q  3  A  4  Q  5  6  A  7  Q  8  A  9  Q  10  11  12  A  13  Q  14  15  A  16  Q  17  18  A  19  20  Q  21  A  22  Q  23  24  A  25  Q  26  27  A  2 8 MR.  MAC]  29 4332  1 on his list of documents.  I don't recall having seen  2 this particular document myself before.  I presume it  3 is on his list of documents so.  4 THE COURT:  Well, is there any basis upon which I could admit  5 it, Mr. Mackenzie?  6 MR. MACKENZIE:  Yes, my lord.  The witness has identified that  7 the people -- the people whose names appear signing  8 were members of the band council.  The person to which  9 the bylaw refers is her stepfather.  The trapline to  10 which the document refers is her stepfather's trapline  11 near Morris Lake.  This is the form in which Band  12 Council Resolutions are prepared at the Hagwilget  13 Band.  14 THE COURT:  Mr. Mackenzie, I haven't the slightest doubt  15 everything you say is absolutely true.  I haven't the  16 slightest doubt -- I shouldn't say slightest, but I  17 have practically no doubt it is what you say it is.  18 It simply isn't proven.  There may be other traplines  19 this witness knows other than this particular one.  20 The witness can't identify the signatures.  It's not a  21 proven document.  22 MR. MACKENZIE:  Fine, my lord.  I won't press it then.  Your  23 lordship commented about -- commented about a notice  24 to admit, and, my lord --  25 THE COURT:  That's a practice that's gone out of currency.  It's  26 a very useful one.  It saves enormous amounts of time.  27 No one seems to take advantage of it.  28 MR. MACKENZIE:  That has not been the experience of the parties  29 in this litigation, my lord.   I'm sorry, my lord.  30 THE COURT:  We could cut this trial in half with proper notices  31 I should think.  32 MR. MACKENZIE:  My lord, I don't think it would be appropriate  33 for me to pursue this discussion any further except to  34 say that notices to admit have been served in this  35 case unsuccessfully, and --  36 THE COURT:  Notice to admit documents or notice to admit facts?  37 MR. MACKENZIE:  Notice to admit documents.  38 MR. GRANT:  But on both sides, my lord.  39 MR. MACKENZIE:  I don't agree with that, my lord.  I don't know  40 whether your lordship is interested in this.  41 THE COURT:  No.  I really can't do anything about it anyway.  42 I'm a victim without remedies.  43 MR. MACKENZIE:  Thank you, my lord.  44 MR. GRANT:  But I must say, my lord, this document has never  45 been part of a notice to admit to my knowledge.  46 MR. MACKENZIE:  That's correct, my lord.  47 MR. GRANT:  None of the documents of this form have been, which 4333  1 is what --  2 MR. MACKENZIE:  Well, my lord, my friend wants to have the last  3 word.  4 THE COURT:  Why don't you let him have it.  5 MR. MACKENZIE:  Perhaps I'll let him have that, my lord.  6 Q   Now, Mrs. Wilson-Kenni, did any representative of the  7 Hagwilget Band make submissions to parliamentary  8 sub-committees with respect to band government at any  9 time during the time you were band manager?  10 A  Make submission to who?  11 Q   To parliamentary committees discussing band  12 government?  13 A  Well, right this minute I can't remember.  They might  14 have.  15 Q   Well, I'm instructed that there was a special  16 committee on Indian self-government which visited  17 British Columbia and held hearings in February 1983,  18 and certain documents relating to that committee  19 appear in the plaintiffs' list of documents in  20 document 3317, and I've included excerpts from that at  21 tab 16.  22 But referring to that committee in 1983 do you  23 recall representatives of the Hagwilget Band making  24 submissions to that committee?  I don't say that they  25 did, I'm just asking you whether they did.  2 6 A   I don't remember.  If I see the thing maybe I can --  27 is it in here?  28 Q   Yes.  I'll refer you to tab 16.  It's plaintiffs'  29 document 3317.  And these are briefing — briefing  30 notes for the -- purport to be briefing notes for the  31 special committee on Indian self-government.  32 THE COURT:  Tab 16 of volume 2?  33 MR. MACKENZIE:  Tab 16 of volume 2, my lord.  And I'm referring  34 to the fourth page in which is a letter from the clerk  35 of the special committee on Indian self-government  36 dated January 25, 1983.  This is for Mrs.  37 Wilson-Kenni's reference.  38 Q   Do you recall?  39 A   I don't remember seeing that letter.  40 Q   That letter wasn't addressed to you.  My question is  41 do you recall that special committee on Indian  42 self-government?  43 A   Yes.  44 Q   And did you or any other representative of the  45 Hagwilget Band correspond with that committee?  46 A   I can't remember at this time.  I just really can't.  47 Q   At page 54 of those briefing notes, excerpt from those 4334  1 briefing notes, which is the plaintiffs' document  2 3317.  3 A   54?  4 Q   Yes.  There's a discussion of the Gitksan Carrier  5 Tribal Council, and the first paragraph indicates that  6 the Gitksan Carrier Tribal Council represents the  7 Gitksan communities of Gitanmaax, Kispiox, Kitwancool,  8 Gitwangak, Kitsegukla and Sikadoak, and the adjacent  9 Carrier communities of Hagwilget and Moricetown.  Is  10 that a true statement as at 1983, which I presume was  11 the date?  12 A   Yes.  13 Q   Yes.  14 MR. GRANT:  My lord, I just want to be clear on the record what  15 this document is.  This is not a document produced by  16 the plaintiffs.  As you can see from the document  17 immediately before it's a document produced by the  18 Department of Indian and Northern Affairs, Mr.  19 Anderson, to the Evaluation Branch, and it was a  20 synopsis prepared by the Department of Indian and  21 Northern Affairs.  So this document is not a creature  22 of the plaintiffs at all.  23 THE COURT:  Yes, I understood that.  24 MR. MACKENZIE:  Yes, that's right, my lord.  It's document 3317  25 on the plaintiffs' list.  Mr. Mitchell has a question.  26 THE SPELLER:  The list again.  I missed one of the names of the  27 villages.  28 MR. MACKENZIE:  Yes.  I read out the names of the Gitksan and  29 Carrier villages listed at page 54 of that document.  30 THE COURT:  I think there may be some trouble with the last one,  31 Sikadoak.  S-I-K-A-D-O-A-K.  32 MR. MACKENZIE:  33 Q   Is Sikadoak Glen Vowel1, Mrs. Wilson-Kenni?  34 A   Yes.  35 Q   And that reference to the tribal council is -- that's  36 the name of the tribal council before it became the  37 Gitksan Wet'suwet'en Tribal Council, isn't it?  38 A   Yes.  39 Q   And carrying on there it indicates the Gitksan Carrier  40 Tribal Council was formed in 1975 and incorporated in  41 1978.  Is that true?  42 A   Yes.  43 Q   And going to the third paragraph it says the Gitksan  44 Carrier Tribal Council coordinates activities for the  45 member bands, is that correct?  46 A   Only if they are asked by the band to do that.  47 Q   Okay.  And just to refer the court to your evidence 4335  1 yesterday, you testified that you were the -- you were  2 a director of the tribal council?  3 A   Yes.  4 Q   Yes.  And that was from about 1979 to the present, is  5 that correct?  6 A   No.  7 Q   No?  8 A   To about '83.  9 Q   1979 to 1983.  Yes.  10 THE COURT:  When the name was changed from Gitksan Carrier to  11 Gitksan Wet'suwet'en was that just a change of name or  12 was there a deletion of some bands and addition of  13 others?  14 A   No, it was change of name.  15 THE COURT:  Just a change of name?  16 A   Yes.  17 THE COURT:  Thank you.  18 A   Because Carrier covered too large an area, and our  19 area was Wet'suwet'en area.  2 0 THE COURT:  Yes.  Thank you.  21 MR. GRANT:  That was in January 1984, my lord.  22 THE COURT:  Thank you.  23 MR. MACKENZIE:  Yes, I agree with that, my lord.  I'll be  24 referring to that later in my questions.  25 Q   Now, moving on to another subject.  2 6       A   Oh.  27 Q   Sorry, Mrs. Wilson-Kenni.  Yes?  28 A   There's on this thing here that it says it represents  29 this villages of Kitwancool on there too.  30 Q   Oh, yes.  That's page 54 —  31 THE COURT:  Yes.  32 MR. MACKENZIE:  33 Q   -- Includes the Village of Kitwancool.  You say that's  34 not correct?  35 A   No.  36 Q   Kitwancool Village is not included in the tribal  37 council?  38 A   No.  39 Q   So I will return to that briefly later to that  40 subject, but I've completed my questions on that  41 document.  42 Now, continuing on.  The band reserves with  43 respect to employment.  You spoke about unemployment  44 on the reserve.  Are members of the Hagwilget Band  45 employed off the reserve in various occupations?  46 A   There is very few right now working off.  47 Q   Are some of those few who are employed employed in the 4336  1 logging industry?  2 A   Some of them are, and some are working either in other  3 j obs.  4 Q   Do any members of the Hagwilget Band work at the  5 Weststar sawmill at South Hazelton?  6 A  Members of the Hagwilget Band?  I think there is not  7 too many.  There might be only one.  8 THE COURT:  Did you say South Hazelton?  9 MR. MACKENZIE:  Yes, my lord.  10 THE COURT:  Thank you.  At the very most there's two.  I think there's just --  yes, two.  >JZIE:  Members of the reserve -- have other members of the  reserve worked at that sawmill in the past?  I don't know.  I don't remember that.  Do any members of the Hagwilget Reserve work in the  Weststar sawmill in Carnaby, the new sawmill?  I thought that's what you were talking about.  So your evidence is the two members work at the  Weststar sawmill near Carnaby?  Yes.  There is another big Weststar mill at South Hazelton,  isn't there?  The one they call Rim?  I think that may be it.  Perhaps I could just rephrase  my question.  There's a large sawmill at South  Hazelton, isn't there?  Yes.  There is another new sawmill just opened up at  Carnaby, isn't there?  Yes.  Now, you spoke yesterday also about the portable  sawmill on the Bulkley Reserve.  Do you recall that?  M'hm.  And you testified that that project didn't proceed.  Do you recall that?  Yes.  Yes.  And you said that the main reason was your  concern about seeking permission from the Djogaslees.  Do you recall saying that?  Well, not in particular Djogaslee.  I didn't realize  whose territory it was on.  I see.  You were concerned about obtaining permission  from the hereditary chiefs?  Yes.  You were also concerned about clear cutting you  11  A  12  13 MR.  MAC]  14  Q  15  16  A  17  Q  18  19  A  20  Q  21  22  A  23  Q  24  25  A  26  Q  27  28  29  A  30  Q  31  32  A  33  Q  34  35  A  36  Q  37  38  A  39  Q  40  41  42  A  43  44  Q  45  46  A  47  Q 1  2  A  3  Q  4  5  A  6  Q  7  8  A  9  Q  10  A  11  Q  12  13  A  14  Q  15  16  A  17  Q  18  19  20  21  A  22  Q  23  24  25  A  26  Q  27  A  28  Q  29  A  30  31  Q  32  33  34  A  35  Q  36  37  38  A  39  Q  40  41  A  42  Q  43  44  45  46  A  47  Q  4337  mentioned?  Yes.  And you said that you have put that project, the  logging project on hold, is that correct?  Yes.  You wanted to think about it some more, is that your  testimony?  Well, I'm not thinking about it.  The band I should say.  The band.  Yes.  Can you tell me how long it has been since that  project was postponed?  It's a couple of years now.  And to your knowledge is the band council still  deliberating on that project?  Yes, they still have now.  Now, I'm instructed, I think you agreed with me, that  the Forest Service did issue a small business  enterprise, I think it would be called a license, for  that project.  Do you recall that?  Yes.  And my instructions are that the anual payments on  that license while it was in effect were about $100.  Do you recall that?  I can't remember the amount.  Can I —  But we've never paid any.  So was any payment ever made?  I can't remember that whether there was payment or  not.  Now, did the band council consult a professional  forester when it was considering its concerns about  clear cutting?  No.  No.  Now, you're aware that the Moricetown Band is  logging on its reserves and off its reserves near the  Moricetown area?  Yes.  Yes.  And are you aware that clear cutting technique  is being employed there?  I'm not aware of what the technique they're using.  Now, I'm going to ask you about the House of Spookw.  Are you familiar with the Glen Vowell logging  activities, Glen Vowell Band logging activities on the  House of Spookw territory?  No, I'm not.  No.  Are you aware that the Glen Vowell Band has a 4338  1 logging operation near New Hazelton?  2 A  Would you say that again?  3 Q   Are you aware that the Glen Vowell Band has a logging  4 operation just south of New Hazelton?  5 A   I heard talk of them trying to get a logging operation  6 going, but I don't know anything further than that.  7 Q   I'm instructed that the access road to that logging  8 operation is just across the highway from the Ross  9 Lake Park Road.  Are you aware of that?  10 A   No.  I don't know where the road is, if there is a  11 road.  12 Q   I'm instructed the Glen Vowell Band has a wood lot  13 license to --  14 MR. GRANT:  My lord, I wonder to the extent that the way my  15 friend is framing up his question my friend is giving  16 evidence.  This witness says she doesn't know anything  17 about it except they were making application.  Now my  18 friend is going into great detail about the very  19 application itself she has said she doesn't know  2 0 anything about.  21 THE COURT:  It's cross-examination.  Your friend can lead the  22 witness.  He can suggest things to her and perhaps  23 refresh her memory.  I don't think if the witness says  24 I don't know it precludes counsel from exploring that  25 area further.  I think this cross-examination is  26 appropriate.  27 MR. MACKENZIE:  28 Q   Mrs. Wilson-Kenni, I'm instructed the Glen Vowell Band  29 has a wood lot license to conduct its logging near New  30 Hazelton.  Did you hear anything about the issue of  31 that wood lot?  Sorry.  Are you aware of the issuance  32 of that wood lot license to the Glen Vowell Band?  33 A   No.  34 Q   To your knowledge has the Glen Vowell Band sought  35 permission from the House of Spookw to conduct logging  36 operations near New Hazelton?  37 A   Not that I'm aware of.  But they might have spoken to  38 Stephen, but I'm not aware of it.  39 MR. MACKENZIE:  And now referring to two other documents which  40 Mr. Grant provided to me, and I have inserted them in  41 my -- this is a new subject again relating to the  42 band.  I've inserted them in my volume — document  43 book number 1, tab 14.  44 Now, the first document at tab 14 is entitled  45 "Daily Transaction Statement of Accounts held by Her  46 Majesty the Queen for use and benefit of Hagwilget  47 Indian Band" and its date issued July 30, 1987.  Does 4339  your lordship have that document?  THE COURT:  Yes.  MR. MACKENZIE:  Q   Mrs. Wilson-Kenni, is that a document which you  withdrew from the files of the Hagwilget Band?  A   Yes.  Q   And have other entries on that document been removed  8 to your knowledge?  9 MR. GRANT:  I can advise the court the balances have been  10 deleted from that.  I discussed this with co-counsel,  11 and it is our position that none of those other  12 entries are relevant.  What's relevant is that the --  13 and what was requested by my friend was documents  14 relating to the Hagwilget B.C. Special, and that is  15 what is described, and all of the detail of that is  16 there.  The total balance as held by the band is not  17 in my view relevant.  18 THE COURT:  It's been blacked out, has it?  19 MR. GRANT:  It's been blanked out, yes.  2 0 THE COURT:  Yes.  21 MR. MACKENZIE:  22 Q   Now, you're a specialist in bookkeeping, and you've  23 had experience in, and education in business  24 administration, Mrs. Wilson-Kenni.  From your  25 examination of this statement of account in its  26 entirety, that is with the entries that have been  27 deleted, do you conclude that this amount of money has  28 been credited to the account of the Hagwilget Band?  29 A   Yes.  30 MR. MACKENZIE:  Yes.  My lord, I submit that for the next  31 exhibit.  32 THE COURT:  Yes.  33 MR. GRANT:  My lord, I have followed up on the notice I've given  34 to my friend a few days ago, and corresponded directly  35 to the provincial defendant as to the relevance of any  36 of these documents relating to the B.C. Special.  I  37 complied with his requests so there would not be delay  38 in the cross-examination of this witness.  He is on  39 notice he may not be getting further production until  40 he provides us with particulars.  We want further  41 particulars, and I've requested further and better  42 particulars as to any of the documents related to the  43 B.C. Special are relevant.  Subject to that I --  44 THE COURT:  All right.  Thank you.  These two documents will be  45 Exhibit —  46 THE REGISTRAR:  339.  Tab 14.  47 MR. MACKENZIE:  I assist the record.  That's actually tab 14 4340  1 of --  2 THE REGISTRAR:  Yes, tab 14.  3 MR. MACKENZIE:  Of document book number 1.  That there are two  4 statements of account here.  One is dated --  5 THE COURT:  A and B.  6 MR. MACKENZIE:  Yes.  One is dated July 30, 1987.  7 THE COURT:  Yes.  8 MR. MACKENZIE:  One is dated May 29, 1986.  9 THE COURT:  Yes.  All right.  It will be A and B.  10  11 (EXHIBIT 339A:  Statement of Account dtd. Jul.30/87)  12  13 (EXHIBIT 339B:  Statement of Account dtd. May 29/86)  14  15 MR. GRANT:  Before the entry -- possibly over the break I could  16 discuss with my friend before the entry of B, because  17 I think, in fact, the wrong document was given to him.  18 THE COURT:  Well, I've already marked it, Mr. Grant, but if you  19 reach agreement with your friend and you want to  20 discuss it you do so.  21 MR. MACKENZIE:  22 Q   Mrs. Wilson-Kenni, from your experience as band  23 manager can you tell his lordship what the purpose of  24 the revenue account referred to in those documents is?  25 This refers to the revenue account, Exhibit 339A.  26 What is that account just generally as a description  27 of it, please?  2 8       A   I really don't know why I have to tell you what the  2 9 band's revenue is.  30 Q   Well, I don't want to know the band's revenue.  I just  31 want to know the purpose of that account to which this  32 payment appears to be.  33 A   It's just funds that's kept in trust in Ottawa which  34 we never see or manage ourselves.  35 Q   And is it your evidence that the amount of that  36 account is in excess of $1,593.73?  37 MR. GRANT:  I object, my lord.  The amount of that account is  38 totally irrelevant, in my submission.  39 THE COURT:  Does this figure 1,593.73 —  40 MR. MACKENZIE:  Yes, my lord.  41 MR. GRANT:  That's the amount of that entry.  42 THE COURT:  Of the payment on that occasion.  Well, I'm not sure  43 what the B.C. Special has to do with this case, but  44 I'm not in a position to say that it is not relevant.  45 MR. GRANT:  No, I appreciate that, my lord.  My friend is —  46 presumably they will respond, but that's not the  47 question.  The question he asked is is the amount in 4341  1 the revenue account in excess of that, and that's got  2 no bearing on this case at all.  3 THE COURT:  Well —  4 MR. GRANT:  There's a credit of 1,593.73, and that's obvious,  5 and that's it.  And I submit the rest is not relevant.  6 THE COURT:  All right.  What is the relevance of the — of the  7 answer given, Mr. Mackenzie?  8 MR. MACKENZIE:  Thank you, my lord.  I'll assist my friend and  9 your lordship.  I'll reframe that question.  10 THE COURT:  Would you like to do that after the break, please.  11 THE REGISTRAR:  Order in court.  Court will recess.  12  13 (PROCEEDINGS ADJOURNED)  14  15 I hereby certify the foregoing to be  16 a true and accurate transcript of the  17 proceedings herein to the best of my  18 skill and ability.  19  20  21 Peri McHale, Official Reporter  22 UNITED REPORTING SERVICE LTD..  Xh2  23 D.Wilson-Kenni (for Plaintiffs)  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47 4342  1 (PROCEEDINGS RESUMED PURSUANT TO A MORNING ADJOURNMENT AT  2 11:36 A.M.)  3  4 THE REGISTRAR:  Order in court.  Ready to proceed, my lord.  5 THE COURT:  Mr. Mackenzie.  6 MR. MACKENZIE:  My lord, I am moving to a new area of  7 questioning, and I have handed up a document to your  8 lordship and to my other friends.  It's a certified  9 copy of documents on file with the Registrar of  10 Companies.  11 THE COURT:  Yes.  12 MR. MACKENZIE:  And it's item 1323 on the Province's list of  13 documents.  It was Exhibit 4 in Mr. Sterritt's  14 examination for discovery.  15 THE COURT:  This whole document is an exhibit to Mr. Sterritt's  16 examination for discovery.  17  18 CROSS-EXAMINATION CONTINUED BY MR. MACKENZIE:  19 Q    Mr. Sterritt's examination for discovery, and I --  20 like my friend, I am not putting it in as an exhibit,  21 my lord, because Mr. Rush on the examination for  22 discovery had some concerns about certain items and I  23 will let my friend consider those, but I do -- it is  24 paginated and I would wish to refer to that  25 collection, handy resource.  26 Now, talking about the Tribal Council  27 Association, we have mentioned it in our questions  28 today already, Mrs. Wilson-Kenni.  You testified  29 yesterday that the tribal council was an arm of the  30 hereditary chiefs.  Do you recall that?  31 A    Yes.  32 Q    And that the name of that council now is the  33 Gitksan-Wet'suwet'en Tribal Council Association; is  34 that correct?  35 A    Yes.  36 Q    And so that's what we are referring to now.  You  37 also said that the tribal council does certain things  38 for the chiefs.  Do you recall that?  39 A    Yes.  40 Q    You said that it looks after court cases for  41 example?  42 A    Yes.  43 Q    And it does research for the chiefs?  4 4        A    Some, yes.  45 MR. MACKENZIE:  You said that it also is involved in proceedings  46 in this court case.  Is that your understanding?  47 MR. GRANT:  What does my friend mean by involved in the 4343  1 proceedings?  It is not a party.  2 MR. MACKENZIE:  I beg your pardon.  Volume 68, page 4234 at line  3 27.  4 THE COURT:  Go ahead.  5 MR. MACKENZIE:  Thank you, my lord.  You said -- you testified:  "Well, the hereditary chiefs are the ones that  give instruction to the tribal council."  You recall saying that?  Yes.  Then you said:  "They're -- they're just like an extension of  an arm; that the chiefs to do the different  things, like for instance this court case, to  do all the research, et cetera, to go ahead  with this court case."  You recall saying that?  Yes.  Yes.  And then you later said, well, who made -- the  question was:  "Q  Well, who made the decision to take this  court case on?"  And you said:  "A  The hereditary chiefs"?  Yes.  And at that same page, 4234, you said that you were  involved in the tribal council in its early days. Do  you recall saying that?  I was involved from '79 until '83.  Yes.  You were a director, and that's your testimony  today as well from 1979 to 1983; correct?  Yes.  And you were also vice-president during those years,  weren't you?  Yes.  And at page 4235, you said that when you came on --  at line 9, page 4235, you said:  "...all that I could see they were doing is  6  Q  7  8  9  10  11  12  A  13  Q  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  A  23  Q  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  A  34  Q  35  36  37  A  38  Q  39  40  A  41  Q  42  43  A  44  Q  45  46  47 4344  that they were negotiating for funds, and some  of the negotiations was for band -- you know,  band funding for certain projects, mainly  capital projects."  That's your evidence?  Yes.  And then at page 4235, line 25, you said:  "The hereditary chiefs selected the directors."  Do you recall saying that?  Yes.  And that's your -- still your evidence?  Well, that's how I remember.  Yes.  And you said:  "...and it was the hereditary chiefs who --  who selected the executive."  Do you recall saying that?  Yes.  And that's your understanding?  Yes.  25 THE COURT:  Did you mean initially or on an ongoing basis?  26 THE WITNESS:  At the time that I was involved, that's how I  27 remember it happening.  28 THE COURT:  From 1979 to 1983?  29 THE WITNESS:  Yes.  3 0 THE COURT:  Thank you.  31 MR. MACKENZIE:  32 Q    My lord, I now wish to refer to this document,  33 Registrar of Companies file, put that before the  34 witness.  Before we start, Mrs. Wilson-Kenni, let me  35 ask you whether in fact what happened was that the  36 directors were elected by people in the villages; do  37 you recall that, that it was election by the people in  38 the villages?  Is that the case?  39 A    Say that first part again?  40 Q    I said the directors were elected by the people in  41 the villages, the members of the tribal council.  Is  42 that the case?  43 A No.  There was two people that voted for the --  44 Q Yes?  45 A -- executive and director.  46 Q You still say that those two people were selected by  47 the hereditary chiefs?  1  2  3  4  5  6  7  A  8  Q  9  10  11  12  13  A  14  Q  15  A  16  Q  17  18  19  20  21  22  A  23  Q  24  A 4345  1 A    Usually hereditary chiefs.  2 MR. MACKENZIE:  Yeah, okay.  Referring to page 3 in the — page  3 1, my lord, start off with page 1.  This is a  4 certificate dated April 18, 1986 from the Assistant  5 Deputy of Registrar of Companies certifying that these  6 documents are true copies of documents on file  7 relating to the Gitksan-Wet'suwet'en Tribal Council  8 Association.  9 My lord, I would propose, subject to my friend's  10 position, that I refer to the pages in this document  11 and that rather than exhibiting each page that I refer  12 to that we could at the end of my questions have all  13 the pages marked as one exhibit and, if some pages  14 have not been entered, then we can either take them  15 out of this volume or we can leave them in with it  16 being clear which ones are part of the exhibits, my  17 lord.  18 THE COURT:  All right.  19 MR. GRANT:  The only — my lord, yes.  This was dealt with in  20 Mr. Sterritt's discovery by Mr. Rush as I recall and I  21 have -- I didn't know that this was going to be  22 introduced until this morning, and there were  23 objections taken there.  Of course we are not talking  24 about the formal objection regarding certification,  25 these appear to be certified copies and that's no  26 problem, but the problem is relevance of course.  27 There is a whole bunch of documents which relate to  28 financing of the tribal council and I would like an  29 opportunity to review with Mr. Rush that the  30 objection -- to determine whether we will be objecting  31 to any of this.  We may not, we may.  But I can't do  32 it until tomorrow morning.  33 MR. MACKENZIE:  I wonder if we could deal with that as we go  34 along on to each item, my lord.  If my friend has a  35 problem with this, put the marking of the exhibit as a  36 hold off until some other time tomorrow.  37 THE COURT:  Yes.  38 MR. MACKENZIE:  39 Q    Now, referring to page 2, Mrs. Wilson-Kenni, in this  40 file.  That's a certificate dated January 18, 1984,  41 that's the change of name from Gitksan-Carrier Tribal  42 Council Association to the Gitksan-Wet'suwet'en Tribal  43 Council Association, and can you confirm that that's  44 when that change of name took place?  Perhaps my  45 friend will admit that without having to bother you  46 with that.  47 A    Oh, I was looking at the wrong page. 4346  GRANT:  I am not certain but it seems that it is a waste of  the court's time; that this is a certificate of the  change of name.  I think it speaks for itself, and I  don't think there is any need for the witness to  guess --  . MACKENZIE:  Yes, I agree.  GRANT:  -- remember or not remember what it is.  MACKENZIE:  So my friend will admit that I take it.  GRANT:  We will admit that that's the day on which the name  was changed.  MACKENZIE:  My lord, I would start off by requesting that  that page, page 2, be included in the exhibit once we  get an overall exhibit number.  And then moving to  page 3, this is the Certificate of Incorporation of  the Gitksan-Carrier Tribal Council Association, and  I'd request that that also be marked as an exhibit  once the --  COURT:  What's this all got to do with the witness?  19 MR. MACKENZIE:  Well, my lord, the witness was a vice-president  20 of the Tribal Council Association from 1979 to 1983.  21 She has testified that the directors of that  22 Association were selected by the hereditary chiefs.  23 THE COURT:  Yes.  Well, you can certainly challenge her on that  24 but is it necessary --  25 MR. MACKENZIE:  I did, my lord.  26 THE COURT:  — to have her identify all these documents?  Aren't  27 they admissible under the Evidence Act?  1  MR.  2  3  4  5  6  MRT  7  MR.  8  MR.  9  MR.  0  1  MR.  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  THE  2 8 MR. GRANT  2 9 THE COURT  3 0 MR. GRANT  I mean, that's the point.  What is all the trouble here?  I don't see why we have to deal with these documents  31 through this witness.  My friends can tender it at the  32 end and, if we argue irrelevance, we can say at the  33 end documents 1, 3, 5 are fine; 4 and 6 we don't like,  34 aren't relevant, and that can be dealt with at the  35 end.  This witness doesn't have to be sitting in the  36 stand for all of this.  37 MR. MACKENZIE:  Fine, I will do that.  I will move right through  38 the questions and not stop to mention the request to  39 exhibits.  We can do that at the end.  I might say  40 there were strenuous objections --  41 THE COURT:  I take it that you are tendering this book of  42 documents, and your friend wants some time to consider  43 it.  That's understandable.  In the meantime, you go  44 ahead and deal with it as if it was in.  45 MR. MACKENZIE:  Thank you, my lord.  That will expedite it.  4 6 THE COURT:  If it isn't in, then we are maybe wasting some time  47 in cross-examination, but I don't see how their can 1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  THE  MR.  4347  possibly be an objection.  The plaintiffs are setting  out to prove a culture that existed before the arrival  of the white man that the defendants are setting out  to establish in a different culture.  How this could  not be relevant, I fail to understand.  Perhaps I am  anticipating the arguments I will receive from counsel  in due course.  MR. GRANT:  Yes.  That's why I wish to speak to Mr. Rush and  review the transcript of his objection with Mr.  Sterritt.  I am taken by surprise on this I must  admit.  I can't really respond.  COURT:  Go ahead.  MACKENZIE:  Q    Page 4, the constitution appears, and the first  purpose of the association was to preserve and promote  the native heritage and identity of the  Gitksan-Carrier people of the Northwestern British  Columbia within Canadian Society.  And while you were  a vice-president that was one of the purposes that --  of the association; is that correct?  Well, that's what it says here.  And item C, purpose was to achieve just resolution  of the land claims and aboriginal rights and issues of  the Gitksan-Carrier people.  That was one of the  purposes while you were a vice-president of the  association?  Yes.  And you were aware that before the association was  incorporated there was an organization known as the  Gitksan-Carrier Tribal Council?  Yes.  You left out B.  Yes.  I actually did leave it out because it is in  the document, but certainly refer to it:  "To improve the social and economic  independence of the Gitksan-Carrier people."  You understood that was the purpose?  Yes.  Yes.  Now, the Tribal Council Association made a  land claims presentation to the Federal Government in  1977.  Can you confirm that?  Yes.  MR. MACKENZIE:  Yes.  And referring to Exhibit 113 in these  proceedings, this as I understand was Exhibit 6 on Mr.  Sterritt's examination for discovery.  THE COURT:  Are you going to be referring to this document?  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A 4348  1 MR. MACKENZIE:  Yes, my lord.  2 I am showing you what is marked as Exhibit 113 in  3 these proceedings and it was document number 6 in Mr.  4 Sterritt's examination for discovery.  It is entitled  5 The Territories of the Gitksan and Carrier Indians,  6 Presentation to the Government of Canada, the  7 Honourable Hugh Falkner, Minister of Indian Affairs,  8 Kispiox, B.C., November 7, 1977.  Can you confirm that  9 that's the map of the claim presented by the Tribal  10 Council Association in 1977?  11 MR. GRANT:  Possibly you should ask if she was present at that  12 meeting first.  13 MR. MACKENZIE:  My lord, I appreciate my friend's assistance but  14 I prefer to --  15 THE COURT:  She may know the answer to that without having been  there, Mr. Grant.  GRANT:  Yes, okay.  MACKENZIE:  Q    Sorry, Mrs. Wilson-Kenni.  Can you confirm that this  map, Exhibit 113, was the map of the claims presented  by the tribal council in November 1977?  A    I know that there was a map presented but I can't  say whether this is the map.  MACKENZIE:  That's already marked as an exhibit, my lord.  2 5 THE COURT:  Yes.  26 MR. MACKENZIE:  27 Q    And on page 4 as a reference to -- at the bottom in  28 the by-laws, there is a reference to resident members.  29 Can you confirm that the association did not include  30 as members people from the Kitwancool village?  31 A    Yes.  32 Q    And the Kitwancool people are Gitksan, are they not?  33 A    Yes.  34 MR. MACKENZIE:  And I just note, Mrs. Wilson-Kenni, that there  35 is no mention in the constitution or by-laws about the  36 hereditary chiefs.  Can you confirm that?  37 THE COURT:  That speaks for itself, Mr. Mackenzie.  38 MR. GRANT:  Yes.  The witness must have an opportunity to read  39 it all if he wished that, my lord.  40 MR. MACKENZIE:  41 Q    Thank you, my lord.  Page 7 is a copy of a special  42 resolution relating to election of directors, so I am  43 going to suggest to you, Mrs. Wilson-Kenni, that the  44 directors were elected by the membership of each of  45 the seven villages; do you deny that?  I mean, it is  4 6 contrary to the evidence that you have given in my  4 7 submission?  16  17  MR  18  MR  19  20  21  22  23  24  MR 4349  1 A    It says two persons.  2 Q    Yes.  3 A    But that's how our village deals with it, the way I  4 told you, that's how our village deals with it.  I am  5 not speaking for everybody in the other villages and  6 how they choose, but that's how our village does it.  7 Q    I see, and so there would be two people from each  8 village to go on the tribal council, is that how it  9 worked, to be directors?  10 A    To be directors?  11 Q    Yes?  12 A    Oh, yes.  13 Q    I note there is no reference to selection by  14 hereditary chiefs.  And page 8 is another special  15 resolution, and that relates to the president,  16 vice-president, secretary and treasurer.  Those were  17 the members of the executive, weren't they?  18 A    Yes.  19 Q    And it refers to election of the successors.  Is  20 that your recollection of how the executive was --  21 took office?  22 A    Yes.  23 Q    So they were not selected, they were elected; is  24 that correct?  25 A    Yes.  26 THE COURT:  Who's the president?  27 THE WITNESS:  Right now, it is Don Ryan.  28 THE COURT:  Mr. Sterritt was the president?  29 THE WITNESS:  Yes.  30 THE COURT:  Was Mr. Ryan elected or was he appointed?  31 THE WITNESS:  Elected.  32 THE COURT:  Elected by the other directors?  33 THE WITNESS:  By the people.  34 THE COURT:  By the people directly or by the directors?  35 THE WITNESS:  By the people.  36 MR. MACKENZIE:  37 Q    And Mr. Don Ryan is the son of Olive Ryan?  38 A    Yes.  39 Q    And he is a sister of Joan Ryan?  40 A    No, he is not the sister.  41 Q    I beg your pardon.  I am sorry, I am sorry.  He is  42 Joan Ryan's brother; is that correct?  43 A    Yes.  44 Q    And Joan Ryan is Hanamuxw; is that correct?  45 A    Yes.  46 Q    And Hanamuxw is a named plaintiff in this  47 litigation? 4350  1 A    Yes.  2 MR. MACKENZIE:  Yes.  3 THE COURT:  I am sure it's got nothing to do with the case but  4 was Mr. Sterritt defeated in election or did he not  5 run again or what happened?  I think he was -- wasn't  6 he the president when we were in Smithers?  7 THE WITNESS:  Yes, he was the president in Smithers.  8 THE COURT:  And he was in between?  9 THE WITNESS:  Yes.  10 THE COURT:  Did he run or was he defeated or —  11 THE WITNESS:  Yes, he ran.  12 THE COURT:  He ran, and Mr. Ryan beat him in the election?  13 THE WITNESS:  Yes.  14 THE COURT:  Thank you.  15 MR. GRANT:  I may note, my lord, that the Society has been  16 desolved in the summer.  It's a document my friends  17 delivered on Monday confirming so that that certainly  18 will have a bearing on our issue, some of the  19 relevance of the contemporary activities because the  20 Society is no longer a society.  21 THE COURT:  I see.  22 MR. MACKENZIE:  And just going over to page 10, this is another  23 special resolution referring to election of the  24 directors, and the directors are -- were to be elected  25 no later than one month before the Annual General  26 Meeting.  Do you recall that to be the case?  27 MR. GRANT:  After November 1983.  28 MR. MACKENZIE:  29 Q    Yes, after November 1983?  30 A    What was your question?  31 Q    You remember -- do you recall that the directors  32 would be elected before the annual meeting each year?  33 A    Yes.  34 Q    And they are elected by the people as you mentioned;  35 is that correct?  36 A    Well —  37 Q    Yes.  Were they -- were the directors elected by the  38 people in the villages prior to the general meeting,  39 the members of the association?  40 A    Elected is wrong word in that.  It is selected in  41 this case, in our village.  42 Q    Page 11, another special resolution referring to  43 separate elections to be held for each office to be  44 filled.  And page 12 deals with acclamation --  45 election by acclamation or by ballot.  And page 13  46 refers to election again.  And page 14, a director  47 must be a member of the Society.  All the directors, 1  2  3  A  4  Q  5  6  A  7  Q  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  A  23  Q  24  25  26  27  A  28  Q  29  30  31  32  A  33  Q  34  35  A  36  Q  37  38  39  40  A  41  Q  42  A  43  Q  44  A  45  Q  46  47  4351  when you were on, were Gitksan or Wet'suwet'en people,  were they, Ms. Wilson-Kenni?  Yes.  They were Gitksan or Wet'suwet'en people in the  seven villages that we referred to earlier?  Yes.  Yes.  And page 18, the special resolution of the  association relating to the change in the name.  And  page 19, there is a letter from Mr. Sterritt and he  points out that the board of directors are represented  and he says:  "The board of directors in voting delegates are  represented by hereditary and legislative  chiefs who are elected under the Indian Act."  Now, speaking about that statement, is it -- do you  confirm that the board of directors -- that's at page  19.  When you were vice-president, your fellow  directors were either councillors or hereditary  chiefs; is that correct?  Yes.  And when a person was hereditary chief and elected  to the board of directors, is he in a position similar  to Alfred Joseph as you mentioned being a hereditary  chief and also chief councillor of your band?  Yes.  That is, they had to act in a different capacity; is  that correct?  They were members of -- directors of in  a capacity different from their capacity as a  hereditary chief for example?  Yes, but not necessarily at the same time.  It was like Alfred Joseph, wasn't it?  They had to  make decisions as directors of the association?  Yes.  And referring to page 20, the annual report,  November 23, 1983.  And your name appears on page 21?  There is no mention of the executive there, but you  say Mr. Sterritt was the president at that time?  Yes.  And you were the vice-president?  In '83?  Yes?  Well, this is dated December.  Yes, it is dated November 23, 1983, and it refers to  an Annual General Meeting held on November 3 and 4,  1983 at Kispiox.  Do you recall that? 4352  1 A    I think that's when Victor Jim got in.  2 Q    And Victor Jim was the -- what was his position?  3 A    Vice-president.  4 Q    Vice-president.  Was that -- did he get in at an  5 election at that time?  6 A    Yes.  7 Q    And looking at the list of directors, there is some  8 familiar names on there.  Looking at page 21, Dan  9 Michell was a director, was he not?  Page 21.  10 A    Yes.  11 Q    And he was -- he is also a hereditary chief?  12 A    Yes.  13 Q    Was he also a chief councillor of the Moricetown  14 Band at that time?  15 A    In —  16 Q    1983?  17 A    Yes.  18 MR. MACKENZIE:  And just one more reference to page 20.  I note  19 that paragraph 4 indicates that copies of the  20 financial statements presented to the Annual General  21 Meeting were attached?  22 MR. GRANT:  Which page was that?  23 MR. MACKENZIE:  24 Q    Page 20.  Can you confirm that the directors proved  25 the financial statements at the general meeting?  26 A    Yes.  27 Q    And while you were vice-president and director, you  28 had occasion to examine the financial statements each  29 year?  30 A    Yes.  31 Q    And moving quickly to page 59, that's the annual  32 report dated January 4, 1982, and the annual meeting  33 that year was -- I am sorry, do you have it, page 59?  34 A    Yes.  35 Q    The annual meeting that year was held at Moricetown  36 in November of 1982.  Do you recall that?  37 A    Yeah.  38 Q    Yes.  And your name appears on page 60 as one of the  39 directors; correct?  4 0 A    Mm-hmm.  41 Q    And Steve Robinson's name is there and he was Spookw  42 at that time, the hereditary chief?  43 A    Yes.  44 Q    He was also a councillor at the Gitanmaax Band; is  45 that true or correct to your knowledge?  46 A    I am not sure whether -- what year it was but he was  47 on the band. 4353  1 Q    He is now a councillor on the Gitanmaax Band, is he  2 not?  3 A    Steve, I am not too sure if he is not there right  4 now.  5 Q    He was on it that you can recall?  6 A    Yes.  7 Q    And I see Alfred Joseph as a director and was he the  8 chief councillor Hagwilget at the time?  9 A    Yes.  10 Q    And moving over to page 80 or, I beg your pardon, we  11 have already dealt with that.  Yes, page 118, I am  12 sorry.  And that's the annual report for 1980 and the  13 annual meeting that year was held in Hazelton  14 Secondary School.  Do you recall that?  15 A    1980, yes.  16 Q    Yes.  And you were vice-president at that time?  17 A    Yes.  18 MR. MACKENZIE:  And page 132.  19 THE COURT:  Sorry?  20 MR. MACKENZIE:  21 Q    Page 132, my lord.  That's the annual report for  22 19 — dated for 1979, filed January 30, 1981, page  23 132.  You were vice-president that year also, weren't  24 you?  25 A    Page what?  26 Q    Page 132?  27 A    Yes.  28 MR. MACKENZIE:  And each of these years you reviewed the  29 financial statements of the association?  30 MR. GRANT:  Object on the question of relevance, my lord.  31 MR. MACKENZIE:  32 Q    Well, we will certainly get to that.  And finally  33 page 143.  This is the Annual General Meeting of 1978.  34 This report was filed January 30, 1981.  And your name  35 doesn't appear on that.  You weren't a member of the  36 board in 1978, were you?  37 A    No.  38 Q    But I see your brother Leonard Austin on page 144  39 was a director; is that correct?  About half-way down.  40 A    He probably was, I don't know.  41 Q    I see.  And you testified that Walter Joseph was a  42 member of the council at one time, Hagwilget Band?  43 A    Yes.  44 Q    And he was -- was he chief councillor in 1978?  45 A    I am not too sure.  He might have been, '78.  46 Q    I said finally, but I will refer to page 153 which  47 is a list of the first directors and some of those 1  2  3  4  5  6  7 MR.  8  9  10  11  12  13 MR.  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33 THE  34  35  3 6 MR.  37  38  39 THE  4 0 MR.  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  A  Q  A  GRANT:  4354  people are hereditary chiefs; is that correct?  Yes.  And as you testified during -- you didn't testify to  this but, during your time as a director, there was  never a director elected from Kitwancool; was there?  No.  MACKENZIE:  I am going to ask you the -- I am anticipating  my friend's concern about this.  I am going to ask you  in your bookkeeping experience to confirm that the  revenue of the association increased from about  $57,000 in 1978 to about over a million dollars in  1983?  :  I object, my lord.  I object to the relevance of any  of the -- any questions relating to the financing of  the Tribal Council Association which is a society  independent of the plaintiffs in the sense when I say  that, it is not a named plaintiff itself, and what is  the relevance of the finances of it?  When you look at  these documents, my lord, there is all kinds of  programmes here.  I mean, talk about opening the flood  gates.  We have got -- there is five programmes.  They  all get separate funding.  I mean, are we going to  have to answer all of that, what each programme gets  and everything else, and explain where the money comes  from and how it is broken down?  I submit that it is irrelevant; it is a flood  gate of documents, and that there is no or very little  if any probative values.  If my friend wants to know  if there is funding from the tribal council from X, Y  or Z, maybe he can say did they get money, but the  question of the finances of the tribal council I  submit is not relevant to these proceedings.  :  Well, you lead evidence, Mr. Grant, that the tribal  council is an arm of the hereditary chiefs who are the  plaintiffs.  :  The tribal council, as the witness has explained,  does the leg work for the plaintiffs, but the question  is:  What is the relevance.  :  It is an agent of the plaintiffs then.  :  Well, I think that's -- I don't know if it is an  agent, my lord, but the point is, what is the  relevance of funding of the tribal council.  There is  no evidence that any -- I mean -- I mean, there are --  there is a Manpower project; there is all kinds of  different things the tribal council does and, if we  are going to get into that, my lord, we are going to  be extending the length of trial to no avail at the  COURT:  GRANT:  COURT:  GRANT: 4355  1 end of the day.  I submit that -- I mean, these  2 balance sheets indicate many different programmes and  3 everything else and, if we have to answer that, my  4 friend's simple question, well, it increased, it may  5 be because of the addition of a programme, it may be  6 because of different changes that have occurred and if  7 my friends asks that question, it is going to open the  8 door that we have to go back and explain where all  9 these monies came from.  10 THE COURT:  I don't know why you feel obliged to explain  11 anything.  What your friend is seeking to adduce is a  12 fact which may or may not have any significance.  I am  13 certainly not likely to assume that this million  14 dollars, if such it is, is a prejudicial fact in any  15 way but is it not a fact about the people that we are  16 investigating in the same sense that their ancestors  17 traded with the people from the coast?  Isn't it just  18 a fact -- I don't have to go into the details of that  19 trade.  20 MR. GRANT:  But, my lord, my friends may well make it a  21 significant -- argue to you that it is a significant  22 facts and, in order to counter-balance that once they  23 open the door of this, we are going to have to  24 demonstrate to you that it is not a significant fact.  25 We are going to have to demonstrate, well, there was  26 this contract with X, Y and Z to do this or this to do  27 that and therefore when you -- you know, this money is  28 for different purposes just so you have an  29 understanding of what that money is for if they're  30 going to rely on it.  That's why I object on the basis  31 of relevance.  My friends can sit there and ask, it as  32 a question of fact and you say, well, it is just a  33 fact.  Yes, but what's the relevance of it?  34 THE COURT:  Without mentioning the amount of money if your  35 friends were to embark upon an investigation into the  36 activities of the tribal council or the Hagwilget or  37 Moricetown Band to offer anything they have into  38 funding, education programmes as you did and that sort  39 of thing, are those not matters that bear on the  40 fundamental question that has to be decided here as to  41 whether these people in these circumstances have or  42 will or obtained aboriginal rights of the kind and  43 nature that is being advanced in this action?  44 MR. GRANT:  Quite simply, my lord, I say no.  45 THE COURT:  Can you advance your side of it I suppose is one way  46 of putting it without the other side advancing some  47 other perspective? 4356  1 MR. GRANT:  Well, what I am saying, my lord, is the question of  2 the funding of the Tribal Council Association for all  3 of its multiple purposes is not something that's  4 relevant.  5 THE COURT:  Your friend hasn't got into the question of where  6 the money comes from yet.  7 MR. GRANT:  No, and he may well not.  He may well, like you,  8 just to have the bold, bald fact and leave it to us to  9 try to explain what this money is so that you don't --  10 THE COURT:  I don't know why you feel any compulsion to explain  11 unless you think it may be relevant for me to know.  12 For the moment, I am not sure that I need to know  13 where the money comes from, and it might be  14 interesting, but I am not sure I need to know.  But on  15 the other hand, a growth of activities from $50,000 in  16 1978 or 9, over a million today is an indication of a  17 certain volume of activity that may be relevant; it  18 may not.  I don't really know, the same way I don't  19 know whether it's a lot -- whether a lot of the things  20 that you and Mr. Rush and Mr. Adams have asked in  21 chief about certain things, about how things were  22 done, I am not sure now at this stage whether those  23 things are relevant.  I'll have to wait until I hear  24 all of the evidence and hear what context counsel  25 wants to put on those facts.  I am not sure I can  26 decide on this point the fact that the council, in  27 view of the witness' evidence about its relationship  28 with the hereditary chiefs, isn't -- and its  29 activities is not a factor that might be relevant.  30 MR. GRANT:  Well, my lord, the point I raise is the point that  31 was raised earlier with myself and that's in terms of  32 when Mr. Macaulay objected about the administrative  33 actions of the department, and that is that my friend,  34 where is the relevance of it.  Let my friend say now  35 why it is relevant and maybe that will answer the  36 question.  37 THE COURT:  I took it to be relevant as a result of the  38 province's pleadings about the variations of  39 ordinances and statutes and other regulations that are  40 listed in their particulars.  I take that, and I may  41 be presuming at this stage, but I took that to be the  42 pleadings foundation for this kind of evidence.  I  43 don't know if, Mr. Mackenzie, if there is other  44 pleadings that will support the evidence.  I haven't  45 tried to categorize what pleadings support this and  46 whatnot, but maybe there are other reasons that I need  47 hear.  If you say there are no pleadings to support 4357  1 this, then I should hear you on that.  2 MR. GRANT:  Well, I don't know what the pleadings are to support  3 the tribal council's finances over of the last ten  4 years, and I don't see that there are any in --  5 THE COURT:  Are they -- the tribal council's activities not in  6 some way parallel to the activities of houses which I  7 have heard so much about?  8 MR. GRANT:  Well, I am sure my friends would -- that may well be  9 their thesis.  10 THE COURT:  Each is just a form of social organization.  These  11 people have arranged for themselves.  Is there any  12 real distinction between the tribal council and the  13 houses?  I mean, from a relevance point of view, their  14 significance may be -- the significance you put on  15 them may be vastly different but at the moment I have  16 difficulty seeing why I should hear all this evidence  17 that I have heard about how the houses seek themselves  18 at the feast table, and how they marry and intermarry  19 and don't marry or intermarry, and how they do this  20 and how they do that.  But on one hand, I don't see --  21 but I am not going to hear anything that deals with  22 new form of -- relatively new form of social  23 organization that seems to have a certain level of  24 current activity.  25 MR. GRANT:  Well, my lord, I am concerned that if my friends are  26 saying it is a new form of social organization of  27 tribal council, that's not the assumption or that's  28 not the evidence as I understand it today.  I mean,  29 this is a creation of a society which came into  30 existence, has now gone out of existence; say, it may  31 be a tool; it may be an arm; it may be some aid, but  32 question of the financial intricacies of the tribal  33 council I would submit is not relevant and I, once  34 again, I ask my friends -- this is what we've raised  35 on the discoveries I recall of Mr. Sterritt, what is  36 the relevance of it, and we have yet to hear that.  37 THE COURT:  Well, I think that it is appropriate that you should  38 make this objection, Mr. Grant, and I think it is  39 appropriate I should ask you and your learned friend  40 to state under what pleading heads he asserts the  41 right to adduce this evidence.  Are you ready to do  42 that now, Mr. Mackenzie, or do you want to do it at  43 two o'clock?  44 MR. MACKENZIE:  My lord, I would be pleased to do it at two  45 o'clock.  46 THE COURT:  I think you'll be interrupted almost in mid sentence  47 if we start now so, for that reason, we will adjourn 1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  4358  now until 2:00.  THE REGISTRAR:  Thank you.  Order in court.  Court will adjourn  until two.  (PROCEEDINGS ADJOURNED AT 12:25 P.M.)  I hereby certify the foregoing to be  a true and accurate transcript of the  proceedings herein, transcribed to the  best of my skill and ability.  TANNIS DEFOE, Official Reporter  United Reporting Service Ltd.  (PROCEEDINGS ADJOURNED AND RESUMED FOLLOWING LUNCHEON RECESS)  THE REGISTRAR:  Delgamuukw versus Her Majesty the Queen, at bar,  my lord.  THE COURT:  Mr. Grant.  MR. GRANT:  Yes, my lord, before my friend proceeds, Exhibit  339B, I believe it was, I would ask -- the document  that was delivered to my friend was not related to the  B.C. Special.  At least, it doesn't appear to be on  its face.  But there was a document of that date that  refers to Hagwilget B.C. Special, and so I would ask  that the 339B that's gone in be pulled and replaced  with this one.  And I think my friend agrees that  that's appropriate.  THE COURT:  Yes.  Yes.  All right.  Thank you.  Do you want that  document back, Mr. Grant? 4359  1 MR. GRANT:  Yes.  The other one.  2 MR. MACKENZIE:  I guess I'll take it back because it's my —  3 mine.  Thank you.  4 THE COURT:  All right.  Where are we, gentlemen, do you want to  5 have an argument?  6 MR. GRANT:  Good as way to start the afternoon as any, my lord.  7 MR. MACKENZIE:  It spices up the afternoon, my lord.  And  8 subject to your lordship's wishes I would like to make  9 a brief submission, but not necessarily proceed into  10 an argument.  11 THE COURT  12 MR. GRANT  13 THE COURT  All right.  Raise it again whenever you wish.  I may wish to reply, my lord.  Yes.  14 MR. MACKENZIE:  My lord, our position is that the documents in  15 this file, Registrar of Companies file are relevant.  16 And this is a record of activities of the council,  17 which as the witness has testified may — testified  18 may be an arm of the hereditary chiefs.  But, my lord,  19 at this time I would wish to adopt your lordship's  20 comments as to the relevance, but not restrict myself  21 or my colleagues to those observations which your  22 lordship made this morning.  Your lordship has  23 canvassed various bases for relevance from the  24 pleadings related to various statutes, to the  25 appropriateness of being able to reply to the detailed  26 evidence on the house systems, feast books, the  27 mukluks, et cetera, and in my submission your lordship  28 has covered several of the bases on which this  29 evidence would be relevant.  And one of the points  30 also, my lord, if I may say, is that the plaintiffs  31 raised this evidence in chief and gave evidence about  32 the tribal council, and it would be inappropriate to  33 restrict too much the right to canvass these topics in  34 cross-examination.  35 Now, as to the financial statements, this very  36 briefly, my lord, in my submission, and I would hope  37 to elicit this from the witness, I think the court  38 would take judicial notice of this, the financial  39 statements are vital signs of an organization's health  40 and sheer reflections of levels of activity.  And in  41 this case from 1978 to 1983 revenue and expenditures  42 increased twenty-fold, over two thousand percent.  And  43 who knows about the increase in activities in 1983 to  44 the present day, which is a further five years.  45 Now, if your lordship wishes we would be pleased  46 to provide more considered submission and with further  47 references to the pleadings at such time as your 1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  4360  lordship deems appropriate.  THE COURT:  Well, if there's an objection to admissibility I  have to deal with it now if you're planning to pursue  the question with the witness.  I don't think I can  give a tendered ruling then have it re-argued again at  some other time.  It seems to me it's one of the  problems of trials is that we are expected to get on  with it, and there's -- you're tendering evidence  that's objected to, and I think I should rule and that  should be the end of it.  If you're content to stand  on the submission you made, Mr. Mackenzie, well then  after hearing your learned friends I'll rule and then  we'll be on our way.  And I think that should be all  we hear about that question.  Now, unless you want to  stand the whole matter down and you can carry on with  something else with this witness and come back to it  at a time that's more convenient to yourself and your  friends then I think you have to be limited to your --  in the submissions you make now.  MACKENZIE:  Thank you, my lord.  May I seek clarification  from my friends then.  May I take it that my friend's  concerns relate solely to the documents in this file  which are financial statements?  GRANT:  Well, that was the focus of my objection.  COURT:  Yes.  GRANT:  This document has -- I must admit I haven't read the  186 pages, but that my friend -- I did not object when  my friend asked about who were present and past board  members of the board of directors.  I think at the end  of the day we may argue whether that's relevant, but I  think that's certainly not something to stop in terms  of the evidence.  I think that's where — I understand  what your lordship was saying that that's certainly  something to get the understanding and to fit it in,  and it's the financial records.  And I'd ask my  friend -- I presumed that he was going to rely on what  pleadings he was relying on.  MR. MACKENZIE:  Now, my lord, if I could seek a further  clarification.  What I would propose is that I not go  into details of sources of financing at this time.  I  perceive that is my friend's concern.  I'm interested  at this time in the financial statements as  reflections of general trends in the activity of the  association.  And providing I restrict my current  questions to that I ask my friend to indicate whether  that would be objectionable to him.  And after further  consideration if we are going to go into more detailed  MR.  MR.  THE  MR. 4361  1 analysis it would be appropriate tomorrow morning to  2 make a more detailed submission.  3 THE COURT:  Are you going to be the rest of the afternoon with  4 the witness in cross-examination?  5 MR. MACKENZIE:  Yes, my lord, I was planning to be about a —  6 very shortly into tomorrow morning.  7 THE COURT:  What do you say about the range or reach of your  8 objection, Mr. Grant?  9 MR. GRANT:  Well, I just wish to refer the court to the first  10 time this was raised, which was February 25th, 1987 in  11 the examination for discovery of Mr. Neil Sterritt  12 when Mr. Rush said relating to this document:  13  14 "I don't know; I have not read any of it.  I  15 would have objection to some of it, anything  16 that relates to the financial operation of  17 the tribal council and whatever else I am  18 able to determine after I looked at it.  19 This document was disclosed in your document  20 list as document 7 or document list 8 which  21 I got yesterday, so I haven't had an  22 opportunity of looking at this document."  23  24 So subject to that objection -- so over 12 months  25 ago this objection was raised.  This document now on  26 the 69th or 70th day of trial, it's the first time  27 it's been put forward as an exhibit, and I was advised  28 it was being put forward as an exhibit this morning.  29 I object to any questions of this witness relating to  30 the financial operations of the tribal council.  I  31 think that that is a much broader reach than is  32 relevant.  And my friend, I note, has not referred to  33 any pleadings yet on which he relies in support of the  34 relevance of that.  35 MR. MACKENZIE:  Well, my lord, my friend has misspoke again, as  36 he continues to do one time after another.  This is an  37 adversarial system, but I don't think we should -- it  38 should be taken that far.  39 My lord, in my comments I adopted your lordship's  40 observations this morning, and your lordship referred  41 to the pleadings in several respects including  42 references to statutes raised in the pleadings, and of  43 course the entire question of the -- this house  44 organization, social organization being pleaded by the  45 plaintiffs.  It seems to me, my lord, that I have  46 referred to the pleadings in adopting your lordship's  47 observations, and -- 4362  1 THE COURT:  Well, when I made my statements I hadn't even looked  2 at the pleadings, but I remember references to the  3 pleadings to things like the -- I look at schedule D  4 of page 103K of the amended record, and --  5 MR. GRANT:  103, my lord?  6 THE COURT:  Yes.  And I don't know which statutes if any  7 evidence they fall under.  I haven't looked at it  8 carefully.  These are all provincial statutes, are  9 they?  10 MR. MACKENZIE:  Well, my lord, they are references to provincial  11 and federal statutes, but of course in this case it  12 would be the Provincial Society Act.  13 THE COURT:  Did you plead the Societies Act?  14 MR. MACKENZIE:  Provincial Societies Act just generally.  15 THE COURT:  I don't think you did, did you?  16 MR. MACKENZIE:  Excuse me, my lord.  If I may — may I attempt  17 to circumnavigate this shoal by saying that subject to  18 your lordship's directions I will forebear from asking  19 questions on the financial statements at this time and  20 reserve my right to make -- to go into that area  21 tomorrow morning.  22 THE COURT:  All right.  Thank you.  23  24 CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR. MACKENZIE:  25 Q   Now, Mrs. Wilson-Kenni, you testified that each year  26 you reviewed the financial statements of the tribal  27 council, is that correct?  28 A   Yes.  29 Q   Yes.  And is it fair to say that in the years between  30 1978 and 1983 the activities of the association  31 increased significantly?  32 A   Yes.  33 Q   And will you agree with me that on the basis of your  34 experience in business administration that financial  35 statements are a vital sign of an organization's  36 health?  37 MR. GRANT:  Objection, my lord.  I mean —  38 MR. MACKENZIE:  I'm not asking questions about these financial  39 statements, my lord.  40 MR. GRANT:  Well, my friend — the issue is this area — is this  41 an area of relevance.  My friend is now trying to  42 broach it through the witness, and get the witness to  43 give an answer to bootstrap himself.  I think he said  44 he was going to leave this area until tomorrow  45 morning.  I would ask him to do so.  46 MR. MACKENZIE:  Well, my lord, I'm leaving the area of the  47 financial statements of this particular operation and 4363  1 the documents itself.  2 THE COURT:  It's not really a question the witness can be  3 expected to answer.  4 MR. MACKENZIE:  Yes, my lord, with respect —  5 THE COURT:  Isn't it a matter for expert evidence as to what  6 inferences can be drawn from financial statements?  7 Maybe she is qualified to express such an opinion, but  8 it would seem to me if you were to leave the subject  9 it would be better to leave it entirely.  10 MR. MACKENZIE:  Yes, my lord.  11 THE COURT:  I don't find any — I didn't hear your friend  objecting when -- when you asked about activities.  I'm not making any suggestion you leave that until  tomorrow if you prefer not to.  \FZIE:  Thank you, my lord.  Mrs. Wilson-Kenni, can you confirm that when you  joined the tribal council in 1979 its principal  activities related to land claims?  Yes.  And can you confirm also that four years later by 1980  the tribal council association was involved in many  more programs in addition to land claims, research and  activities?  Yes.  And can you confirm also that those -- those projects  involved such things as fish management studies?  Yes.  Yes.  And health studies?  Yes.  Education programs?  Yes.  And matters and programs of general interest to the --  the member -- the bands who were members of the tribal  council?  Yes.  Can you tell his lordship what -- whether there was a  program which was described as a codification project  or program?  There was, but I don't know too much about it. That's  probably a specialty in itself. I don't know anything  about it.  Well, you mentioned in your evidence in chief  membership codes flowing from Bill C-31.  Do you  recall that?  Yes.  Is there any connection between those two subjects?  No.  12  13  14  15 MR.  MAC]  16  Q  17  18  19  A  20  Q  21  22  23  24  A  25  Q  26  27  A  28  Q  29  A  30  Q  31  A  32  Q  33  34  35  A  36  Q  37  38  39  A  40  41  42  Q  43  44  45  A  46  Q  47  A 4364  1 Q   All right.  And you recall an area of activity for the  2 tribal council characterized as resource development?  3 A   I'm not too sure.  4 Q   Do you recall a program described as the scholarship  5 fund?  6 A   Yes.  7 Q   Can you tell his lordship what that program involved?  8 A   That's in education.  9 Q   And could you give a few more details about that,  10 please?  11 A  Well, it's set up to -- well, it's like any other  12 scholarship fund only it's set up for any worthy  13 student of a scholarship.  14 Q   And worthy students of the members -- of the member  15 bands?  16 A   Yes.  Some were, yeah.  17 Q   And during the time that you were vice president were  18 scholarships awarded to promising students?  19 A   I wasn't involved in that area, and like I don't know  20 exactly who received them, but I don't think it was  21 restricted just to -- to the Gitksan Wet'suwet'en  22 students.  23 Q   Now, I'm referring you to a document we looked at  24 earlier this morning.  25 MR. GRANT:  Which one?  26 MR. MACKENZIE:  27 Q   It's in document book number 1, tab 9, and you'll  28 recall it's the Gitwangak fishing bylaw.  I'm going  29 to —  30 THE COURT:  What tab are you looking at?  31 MR. MACKENZIE:  Tab 9, my lord, and it's 14 pages in from that  32 tab approximately.  33 THE COURT:  Yes.  34 MR. MACKENZIE:  35 Q   Now, I'm going to refer you, Mrs. Wilson-Kenni, to the  36 first paragraph of the bylaw.  I'm going to read it to  37 you.  38  39 "Whereas the Gitksan Wet'suwet'en Tribal  40 Council Association and its members  41 presented a claim to ownership of 30,000  42 square miles including the Skeena River  43 upstream from Legate Creek and the Bulkley  44 River to the Minister of Indian and Northern  45 Affairs in November, 1977."  46  47 Now, from your experience as vice president of the 4365  1 tribal council, and your interest in the affairs of  2 the bands in the area, can you say whether -- can you  3 confirm that statement?  Is that correct?  4 A   If that's what it said on that declaration it must be  5 right, but I can't -- you know, like these I wasn't  6 involved with -- with this particular bylaw.  7 Q   I wasn't asking you about the bylaw.  I wondered if  8 the statement is correct from your knowledge as a vice  9 president of the tribal council association?  10 A  Well, I'm not sure it said those particular  11 placenames.  That's the only thing I'm concerned  12 about, because that's 1977 too.  13 Q   Oh, yes.  Apart from the placenames is that an  14 accurate statement?  15 A   Yes.  16 Q   The second paragraph.  17  18 "And Whereas the Government of Canada has  19 accepted the claim in principle presented by  20 the Gitksan Wet'suwet'en Tribal Council  21 Association."  22  23 Is that statement correct?  24 A   I guess it is or I wouldn't be here today.  As far as  25 I know it is.  2 6 Q   And on page two at the top there's another statement.  27  2 8 "And Whereas the Gitwangak Band Council has  29 authorized and directed the Gitksan  30 Wet'suwet'en Tribal Council to meet with the  31 Minister of Fisheries and Oceans or his  32 designates, and with the representatives of  33 other user groups to work towards an  34 integration of the Gitksan Wet'suwet'en  35 fishery management plan with the overall  36 fishery management of the Skeena and Babine  37 River systems."  38  39 My question to you is -- I'm sorry.  Did you get a  40 chance -- when you're finished reading it you let me  41 know, please.  42 A   Yes.  43 Q   My question to you is has the Hagwilget Band  44 authorized the Gitksan Wet'suwet'en Tribal Council to  45 meet with the Minister of Fisheries and Oceans as  46 indicated for the Gitwangak Band?  47 A  Well, I know that they were working on something like 1  2  Q  3  A  4  Q  5  A  6  7  Q  8  A  9  Q  10  11  A  12  Q  13  14  15  16  17  A  18  Q  19  20  A  21  Q  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  A  31  Q  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  A  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  4366  this .  The tribal council?  Yes.  The band council.  Oh, yes.  And that was dealt with by the chief councillor at  that time.  Who was that?  Alfred Joseph.  And to your knowledge did he authorize the tribal  council to meet with government officials?  I believe he did.  And I'm referring you to the document at tab 17 of  book number 1, and specifically paragraph 2.  This  document at tab 17 is an affidavit sworn in February  1985 by Mr. Sterritt.  Now, in 1985 Mr. Sterritt was  president of the tribal council, was he?  Pardon me?  In 19 --  In 1985 Mr. Sterritt was president of the tribal  council?  Yes.  And in paragraph 2 Mr. Sterritt deposes that:  "The Gitksan Wet'suwet'en Tribal Council  Association is a society incorporated under  the Society Act of British Columbia on March  1st, 1978."  And that part is true to the best of your  knowledge, is it not?  Yes.  Yes.  "And represents the hereditary Gitksan and  Wet'suwet'en chiefs with respect to their  aboriginal title."  Is that part of the statement true to the best of  your knowledge?  Yes.  The tribal council -- the hereditary chiefs use  the tribal council as their gopher.  When they tell  them to do something they do it and then they have to  report back to the hereditary chiefs.  The same thing  happens with the bands.  If the bands, you know, see  something that they have to join together as a group  then they go there and do the same thing and then they  report back to them.  But the hereditary chiefs, like  I said, use them as a gopher.  You go fer this, you go  fer that thing.  Tribal council is -- is used by the 4367  1 hereditary chiefs, not the other way around.  And they  2 have to be accountable to the hereditary chiefs.  3 Q   And the next sentence in paragraph 2 is:  4  5 "The purposes of the Gitksan Wet'suwet'en  6 Tribal Council Association include the  7 protection of aboriginal title of the  8 Gitksan and Wet'suwet'en people."  9  10 Is that true to the best of your knowledge?  11 A   I'm sorry.  Where are you at?  12 Q   I beg your pardon.  I was carrying on the next  13 sentence in paragraph 2 of Mr. Sterritt's affidavit.  14 A   Yes.  15 Q   Thank you.  Now, exhibited to Mr. Sterritt's affidavit  16 if you go on is a declaration which appears to be  17 dated November 7, 1977.  Carry on to -- you referred  18 to a declaration in your comments.  Was that the  19 declaration to which you were referring?  20 A   Yes.  21 MR. MACKENZIE:  My lord, I would submit the declaration as the  22 next exhibit.  Mrs. Wilson-Kenni referred to that in  23 her testimony and now she has identified the document  24 itself.  25 THE COURT:  Any objection?  Yes.  All right.  26 THE REGISTRAR:  Exhibit 340 at tab 17.  That's just the  27 declaration.  28 MR. GRANT:  That's Exhibit B to the February 17th, '85  29 affidavit.  3 0 THE COURT:  Yes.  31  32 (EXHIBIT 340: Declaration of N.Sterritt dtd. Nov.7/77)  33  34 MR. MACKENZIE:  Going over to Exhibit C, to Mr. Sterritt's  35 affidavit.  36 THE COURT:  We saw that this morning.  37 MR. MACKENZIE:  We saw that this morning.  That's a copy of  38 trial Exhibit 113, and since it's already an exhibit  39 in the trial I won't deal with that any further.  40 Q   Now, Mrs. Wilson-Kenni, as vice president of the  41 tribal council did you attend meetings with Provincial  42 Government officials?  43 MR. GRANT:  Regarding any matters, or something specifically?  44 MR. MACKENZIE:  45 Q   Well, I start with any matters as a representative of  46 the tribal council.  4 7       A   You mean now? 4368  1 Q   No.  When you were a vice president of the tribal  2 council between 1979 and 1983?  3 A   I probably did.  4 Q   Well, I refer you to tab 18, document book 1, and this  5 is a reference to a public meeting at Kitwancool dated  6 March 16, 1981.  This is provincial document 1861,  7 page 11.  And I'm instructed that this document was  8 prepared by Mr. Mould, Mr. Ron Mould.  Do you know Mr.  9 Ron Mould by any chance?  10 A   I know him to see him.  11 Q   He's an employee of the Forest Service, isn't he?  12 A  M'hm.  13 Q   And he has worked for many years at the Kispiox  14 District Office in Hazleton, is that correct, to your  15 knowledge?  16 A   Yes.  17 Q   And do you recall -- and there's a reference to guests  18 R. Mould, B.C.F.S. Kispiox.  And do you recall Mr.  19 Mould being present at a meeting that you attended in  20 1981?  21 A   Yes.  22 Q   Okay.  And —  23 MR. GRANT:  My lord, before my friend proceeds I just would  24 request that he -- this is page 11 of the document.  I  25 haven't seen this before.  I have no indication if  26 it's disclosed, but I would ask if I could review the  27 balance of that document.  Provide it to me later  2 8 today or tomorrow morning.  29 MR. MACKENZIE:  Now, my lord, all the documents on the  30 province's list are available for my friend to review  31 them in normal business hours at reasonable times.  32 MR. GRANT:  That's not going to help me.  I would like to review  33 the balance before re-direct.  I wonder if my friend  34 could arrange for the document to be produced for me.  35 THE COURT:  Mr. Mackenzie?  36 MR. MACKENZIE:  Yes, my lord.  37 Q   Now, looking at this document it's dated March 16,  38 1981.  Is that correct to the best of your  39 recollection, Mrs. Wilson-Kenni?  40 A   I don't know the exact date, but I remember that  41 meeting, yes.  42 Q   And the meeting that -- at the meeting you recall were  43 the people listed present -- people listed on this  44 document present at that meeting?  45 MR. GRANT:  You mean the guests?  46 MR. MACKENZIE:  Yes.  47 A   I don't know that D. Woodgate.  He might -- he or she 1  2  3  Q  4  5  6  7  A  8  Q  9  10  11  A  12  Q  13  A  14  Q  15  A  16  Q  17  18  A  19  Q  20  A  21 MR.  MAC]  4369  might have been there, but I don't remember that name,  but the rest of the names seem right.  And under agenda and comments from the floor there's  mention that there is presentation of a position paper  to Ministry of Forests and Ministry of Environment,  Fish and Wildlife.  Was that done?  I believe so.  And perhaps in summary I could ask you to look at that  document and just confirm that it's an accurate  summary of that meeting you attended?  Are these two pages the same or --  There should be one page.  Or different?  I don't know.  Looks like the same.  Yes, you have --  Two of the same page.  Yes.  I beg your pardon.  It's two copies of the same  document, yes.  So there's just the one sheet?  Yes.  Is that accurate?  Well, it covered a lot of the things that were said.  \FZIE:  Yes.  My lord, I would submit that as the next  22 exhibit.  23 THE COURT:  Exhibit 341.  24 THE REGISTRAR:  Exhibit 341, tab 18, book 1.  25  26 (EXHIBIT 341:  Meeting - List of Guests  27 dtd. Mar.16/81)  28  29 MR. MACKENZIE:  30 Q   And Exhibit 341, at that meeting Mr. Ray Jones was  31 also representing the tribal council?  32 A   Yes.  33 Q   And he was the president at that time?  34 A   Yes.  Ray and I were both there to just witness.  We  35 didn't take part in this.  36 MR. GRANT:  Yes.  I just wondered if my friend can clarify  37 whether the balance of this document relates to this  38 meeting?  39 MR. MACKENZIE:  No.  As I understand it the balance of the  40 documents are simply excerpts from Ministry of Forests  41 files in Kispiox relating to resource management and  42 Indian bands.  I'm not aware that there are other  43 documents relating to this meeting, but I will provide  44 that file to my friend.  45 MR. GRANT:  And if the position paper -- any document that  46 includes the position paper as to who it's presented  47 by.  It says presentation of a position paper.  It 1  2  3 MR.  MAC]  4  Q  5  6  7  A  8  Q  9  A  10  Q  11  12  A  13  Q  14  15  16  17  18  19  A  20  Q  21  22  A  23  Q  24  25  26  A  27  28  Q  29  A  30  Q  31  32  33  34  A  35  Q  36  A  37  38  39  40  41  Q  42  43  A  44  Q  45  A  46  Q  47  4370  doesn't say who by or anything.  This document is  unclear.  >JZIE:  Moving on to another subject.  You testified that you  attended the Moricetown feast on April 6, 1986 dealing  with --  Yes.  Sorry.  Yes.  And that feast related to the overlap of the  Carrier-Sekani?  Yes.  And as indicated on the transcript of that feast,  which is Exhibit 82, at that meeting the -- I'm just  asking you your recollection.  At that meeting the  Wet'suwet'en chiefs presented their petition -- sorry,  their position on the location of the boundary, didn't  they?  Repeat that question again.  At the meeting on April the 6th the Wet'suwet'en  chiefs spoke about their territories, didn't they?  Yes.  And they expressed their position as to the ownership  of the lands contained within the Carrier Sekani  overlap, is that correct?  Well, I just remember them talking about where the  different territories were.  And you recall that Sophie Ogen was at that meeting?  Gee, I can't remember if she was there.  Well, let me assist you then by referring to document  book number 1, tab 5.  This is Exhibit 82.  And if you  turn to page 34 can you see that Sophie Ogen is  indicated as speaking there?  Yes.  Do you recall Sophie Ogen speaking at that feast?  She probably did, it's just that I was busy with the  ladies at the time.  We were -- we had the task of  tending to the guests.  And there were a lot of  speakers there, but I didn't listen to all of it I'm  afraid.  Can you confirm that Sophie Ogen was there as a guest  of the Wet'suwet'en chiefs at this feast?  Well, she was sitting there.  Well, can you confirm that Mr. Edward John was there?  Yes, he was there.  And you know that he's the president of the Carrier  Sekani Tribal Council? 1  A  2  Q  3  4  A  5  Q  6  7  A  8  Q  9  10  11  12  A  13  Q  14  15  16  A  17  18  19  Q  20  21  22  23  A  24  Q  25  26  27  A  28  Q  29  A  30  31  32  33  Q  34  A  35  36  37  Q  38  39  40  A  41  42  Q  43  44  45  46  47  A  4371  Yes.  And can you confirm that he invited Sophie Ogen to  speak to the people present at the feast?  He probably did, yes.  And could you agree with me that Sophie Ogen was there  as a representative of the Broman Lake Band?  I don't know who she was representing.  Can you -- I understand that.  Can you agree with me  that she was there as a representative or in  association with the guests from the Carrier Sekani  Tribal Council?  Yes, it seemed that way.  And can you recall that after that meeting there  was -- the question of the overlap was still  unresolved?  I only know that they agreed that there was going to  be another meeting that was to take place in Burns  Lake.  And do you recall that that other meeting was to  attempt to resolve the difference of opinion between  the Carrier Sekani and the Wet'suwet'en as to the  boundary?  Which?  Sorry.  Can you recall that the next meeting was called to try  and settle the difference between the two groups as to  the location of the boundary of their territories?  The one at Burns Lake?  Yes.  Well, at that time they were speaking like in Burns  Lake, I think I said earlier, a few days ago, that I  came away with the impression that they weren't  dealing with this in the same way that we were.  Yes, you mentioned that.  We were dealing with it through the house and -- clan  and the house system where they're using the D.I.A.  boundaries.  Yes.  So there was a continuing difference of opinion  as to the boundaries as between the two groups.  Is  that fair to say?  I don't know that there was difference of opinion.  They were all speaking on what they thought.  Yes.  Well, let's go back to the Moricetown meeting.  And can you agree with me that the purpose of the  meeting was to try and settle the difference of views  as to the location of a boundary between the two  groups?  Yes. 4372  1 Q   Yes.  And that that settlement wasn't achieved at the  2 Moricetown meeting, was it?  3 A   That seemed more like information where the Carrier  4 Sekani group to digest and think over and then later  5 on have another meeting in which they would do the  6 same thing that our group did.  7 Q   Yes.  And there was, in fact, another meeting in April  8 1987, wasn't there?  9 A   Yes.  10 Q   Now, we'll go to that meeting, but speaking about the  11 April 6th, 1986 meeting, your stepfather Charlie  12 Austin spoke at that meeting in Moricetown?  13 A   I think he did.  14 Q   Yeah.  And your mother Margaret Austin spoke at that  15 meeting?  16 A   Yes.  17 Q   Yeah?  18 A   I think she did.  19 Q   Now, moving on to the Burns Lake meeting.  I have  20 received from my friend a copy of some notes which he  21 tells me are your notes, and I have placed a copy at  22 document book number 1, tab 15.  I'm going to go over  23 with you with my copy because my friend just gave me a  24 clearer copy of the notes, but you have a photocopy of  25 these notes at tab 15 of document book number 1.  And  26 looking at the first page --  27 MR. GRANT:  Before my friend proceeds, my lord, I have a copy --  28 I have a copy for the court.  The copy that was  29 delivered was of poor quality, and I tried to improve  30 the photocopying.  This copy may be more legible.  31 THE COURT:  Thank you.  My tired eyes are grateful.  32 MR. GRANT:  Yes.  It's in pencil, and it's very — even the  33 original is very hard to read, so this was the best  34 effort of getting something that could be legible.  35 MR. MACKENZIE:  I counted 18 pages, my lord, for pagination  36 purposes, but let me just ask Mrs. Wilson-Kenni about  37 this document.  38 Q   This document on page one is entitled "All Clan Feast  39 Burns Lake April 4, 1987".  Now, is this a copy of the  40 notes which you made at the All Clans Feast at Burns  41 Lake in April, 1987?  42 A   Yes.  43 MR. MACKENZIE:  Mark that as an exhibit, my lord.  44 THE REGISTRAR:  It will be Exhibit 342, my lord, tab 15, book 1.  45 THE COURT:  Mr. Grant?  46 MR. GRANT:  No objection, my lord.  47 4373  1 (EXHIBIT 342:  Handwritten notes of D. Wilson-Kenni)  2  3 MR. MACKENZIE:  I have just counted 16 pages so I'll discuss  4 that with my friend and see if there is a discrepancy.  5 Let me then refer to these notes, Exhibit 342.  6 Q   Mrs. Wilson-Kenni, you're counting the pages in the  7 document book.  Did you come up to 16 or 18?  8 A   18.  9 MR. MACKENZIE:  Yes.  The original copy my friend gave me had 18  10 pages.  This new copy has 16, but we'll deal with it  11 later.  12 MR. GRANT:  Yes.  Obviously something was miscalculated.  13 MR. MACKENZIE:  14 Q   Yes.  Let's speak about this 16 page book which my  15 friend has just given to me.  And I'm referring now to  16 page six of that document.  Six pages in there's  17 another title, "April 5, 1987 Burns Lake All Clans  18 Feast".  Now, I take it that's the next day of the  19 feast, second day?  20 A   Yes.  21 Q   Yes.  And then moving on to page 14 which is -- it's  22 the third page in from the end on this clear copy  23 which I received from my friend, Exhibit 342, there's  24 another date April 6, 1987.  Now, that's the third  25 day, isn't it?  26 A   Yes.  27 Q   Yes.  So the meeting, the All Clans Feast, was  28 Saturday the 4th, Sunday the 5th and Monday the 6th,  29 is that right?  3 0 A   I can't remember.  31 Q   It was three days at any rate.  Do you recall that?  32 A   Yes, three days.  33 Q   And we haven't actually had any evidence in detail  34 about the April 6th deliberations.  Can you confirm  35 that on April 6 the subject was primarily the overlap  36 up in the northeastern part of the land claims area?  37 A   Yes.  38 Q   Yes.  39 A   That was to do with the Thutade area.  40 THE COURT:  I'm sorry?  41 MR. MACKENZIE:  Yes.  We need a spelling for that, my lord.  T-H-U-T-A-D-E.  I'm sorry.  A-T --  T-H-U-T-A-D-E.  45 MR. MACKENZIE:  46 Q   Are you aware that Thutade Lake is a lake that is  47 located north of Bear Lake?  42 MR. GRANT  4 3 THE COURT  4 4 MR. GRANT 1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8 MR.  9  10 THE  11 MR.  12  13 THE  14 MR.  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32 THE  33  34 MR.  35 THE  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  4374  A   I don't know where -- I don't know where Thutade is.  Q   I think my learned friend will agree with me Thutade  Lake is an area up in the northeastern part of the --  or just outside the northeastern part of the land  claims area north of Bear Lake.  I think my friend  will agree with that generally.  A   It sounds like it, yeah.  GRANT:  I'll just have to look, but I think we're in the  ballpark anyway.  COURT:  All right.  MACAULAY:  Yes, it's the lake that's so clearly shown on the  small map.  COURT:  I remember that from yesterday.  MACKENZIE:  Q   And I'm -- I understand that, and we'll look at  Exhibit 101 which has the overlap in that area, but I  understand that the area of overlap went from a place  called Kotsine, K-O-T-S-I-N-E, Pass north to Bear Lake  and north to Thutade Lake.  Now, is that generally  accurate to the best of your recollection?  A   I'm not a -- I don't want to say, because I'm not too  sure.  I've never been up in that area.  Q   Right.  A   They talked a lot about those areas you're talking  about.  Q   They talked about the area?  A   Bear Lake was mentioned, and Thutade.  Q   Yes.  A  And after that it's pretty hard to even write the  names down.  Q   Yes.  COURT:  Can we take the afternoon adjournment, Mr.  Mackenzie, please.  MACKENZIE:  Yes, my lord.  REGISTRAR:  Order in court.  Court will recess.  (PROCEEDINGS ADJOURNED)  I hereby certify the foregoing to be  a true and accurate transcript of the  proceedings herein to the best of my  skill and ability.  Peri McHale, Official Reporter  UNITED REPORTING SERVICE LTD. 4375  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47 4376  1 (PROCEEDINGS RESUMED PURSUANT TO AN AFTERNOON ADJOURNMENT  2 AT 3:22 P.M. )  3  4 THE REGISTRAR:  Order in court.  5 THE COURT:  Mr. Mackenzie.  6  7 MR. MACKENZIE:  Thank you, my lord.  I've — in the break, I  8 have put an indication on Exhibit 5 where these three  9 geographical features are that were mentioned before  10 the break, and I have also put up Exhibit 101 which is  11 the Carrier Sekani overlap which I am now going to  12 show your lordship.  13 THE COURT:  I can see it here.  14 MR. MACKENZIE:  I am showing your lordship the Thutade Lake area  15 which is here, my lord.  16 THE COURT:  Yes.  17 MR. MACKENZIE:  And the Bear Lake is here and Kneecap's  18 territory (phonetic) and the Kotsine Pass is down in  19 this territory here, and I have a photocopy of that to  20 hand up to your lordship so your lordship can see it  21 in more detail.  22 THE COURT:  Thank you.  23 MR. MACKENZIE:  Referring now to Exhibit 101, my lord, which  24 is -- evidence shown so far is the overlap, Carrier  25 Sekani overlap, and these three features which I  26 mentioned earlier with the Thutade Lake area is here.  27 Thutade Lake is actually marked on Exhibit 101.  2 8 MR. GRANT:  And Exhibit 5.  29 MR. MACKENZIE:  Yes, and Exhibit 5, and Bear Lake is this  30 location on Exhibit 101.  It has a Gitksan name and  31 the Kotsine Pass is here right down in this area.  And  32 now I am handing up to your lordship and my friends a  33 copy of that portion of Exhibit 5 which might be  34 inserted at tab 15 where these notes are found.  35 THE COURT:  Thank you.  36 MR. MACKENZIE:  I have folded it so that it can be put into the  37 binder.  Now, I am referring to Exhibit 342, the notes  38 of April 6, and I have paginated this April 6 notation  39 as page 15, it is the second page from the end of  40 Exhibit 342.  41 THE COURT:  Yes.  42 MR. MACKENZIE:  It starts on page 14 actually, my lord, page 1  43 of those notes.  44 Now, Mrs. Wilson-Kenni, we have taken detailed  45 notes here.  Can you agree with me that what in  46 summary happened here is that people from the area to  47 the north and around Bear Lake expressed their 4377  1 connection with that part of the territory?  2 MR. GRANT:  Let her look at those notes.  3 MR. MACKENZIE:  4 Q    Well, I am pleased to do that, my lord, and Mrs.  5 Wilson-Kenni made the notes and there is no problem  6 with that, but just wanted to speak in general about  7 your recollection from the meeting.  People from the  8 north spoke about their territory; did they not?  9 A    Yes.  10 Q    And people from the Bear Lake area told of the  11 history of their families in that area; is that fair  12 to say?  13 A    Yes.  14 Q    And let's look a little more carefully at these  15 notes.  Mr. Murphy George, do you know where he comes  16 from?  He is at the top of page --  17 A    Takla.  18 Q    He is from Takla, yes.  Is that the north part of  19 Babine Lake or Takla Lake?  20 A   All I know is he is from Takla.  21 Q    Okay.  22 A   And it is hard to get in there.  23 MR. MACKENZIE:  Oh, yes.  And then Mr. William George speaks  24 again at the bottom of page 1 and --  25 THE COURT:  Bottom of page 1.  26 MR. MACKENZIE:  This is page 14.  Page 1 of the April 6 notes,  2 7 my lord.  2 8 THE COURT:  Yes.  29 MR. MACKENZIE:  30 Q    I am going to read what you have for Mr. William  31 George.  He says:  32  33 "Dennis and Bob Patrick, Emelia, they are the  34 ones who have that at Thutade and Kaska dene  35 are across the river."  36  37 Is that what you have written there?  38 A    Yes.  39 THE COURT:  How do you you spell Kaska dene?  40 MR. MACKENZIE:  K-a-s-k-a new word d-e-n-e.  41 THE COURT:  Thank you.  42 MR. MACKENZIE:  43 Q    Now, who are the Kaska dene, Mrs. Wilson-Kenni?  44 A    It is one of the tribes up there as I understand it.  45 Q    So your understanding is the Kaska dene territory is  46 up to the north-east of the Gitksan-Wet'suwet'en area;  47 is that correct? 1  A  2  Q  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  A  0  Q  1  A  2  Q  3  A  4 MR. I  4ACK]  4378  I don't know where they are to tell you the truth.  Moving over to page 2 of the April 6 notes. This  looks like Mr. William George speaking again and he  says :  "We are called Sekani."  Is that correct?  That's what he said, yeah.  Then the next chap is -- can you see that?  Peter --  Would that be Abraham?  Peter Abraham.  JZIE:  Does your lordship have that?  15 THE COURT:  Yes.  16 MR. MACKENZIE:  Mr. Abraham says he is from Bear Lake, Fort  Connolly; is that what he said?  Yes, that's what he said.  And Fort Connolly is on Bear Lake; do you know that?  There is -- I don't know where Fort Connolly is.  I  have never been up in that area.  I just wrote down  what I heard them saying.  I haven't been up there either.  At at any rate, Mr.  Abraham comments that the mother and two brothers are  buried at Bear Lake?  Yes.  Then down on page 2, Madelaine French is talking,  and where did Madelaine French come from?  I am not sure where she's from.  She comments:  "There are a lot of people buried at Thutade.  Big Jim and his family are buried there."  Is that what she said?  Yes.  And she says :  "I think about our people buried in our  cemetery."  Is that correct?  Mm-hmm.  She says later on:  "Where our mothers are born is where we come  17  Q  18  19  A  20  Q  21  A  22  23  24  Q  25  26  27  A  28  Q  29  30  A  31  Q  32  33  34  35  36  37  A  38  Q  39  40  41  42  43  44  A  45  Q  46  47 4379  1 from."  2  3 Is that what she says?  4 A    Yes.  5 Q    And then you have a reference to Bear Lake Esther.  6 Is that another lady from Bear Lake?  7 A    She mentioned that name but I didn't get what she  8 said about that.  9 Q    I see Madelaine French.  10 A    It is right here too.  See, I didn't hear what she  11 said about -- just I heard that name.  12 MR. GRANT:  That was reference to William Charlie, my lord.  13 MR. MACKENZIE:  14 Q    Yes.  I was just about to indicate that.  Thank you,  15 Mr. Grant.  16 Mrs. Wilson-Kenni pointed out that Madelaine  17 French mentioned William Charlie's name and also Bear  18 Lake Esther's name but Mrs. Wilson-Kenni didn't get  19 the rest of the comments.  And the several other  20 people from the Bear Lake area were mentioned; is that  21 correct?  22 A    Yes.  23 Q    At the bottom of page 2?  24 A    Yes.  25 Q    And then over on page 3.  Madelaine French appears  26 to be talking again and she says her great grandmother  27 was killed 'round mountain near Gunanoot Lake; is that  28 fair?  29 A    Was killed on mountain near Gunanoot Lake, yes.  30 Q    Then she says:  31  32 "West side of Bear Lake is yours but leave Bear  33 Lake alone."  34  35 Is that what she said to the best of your  36 recollection?  37 A    Yes.  38 Q    Do you know that Madelaine French is not a Gitksan  39 person, is she?  40 A    I don't know what tribe she's from.  41 MR. MACKENZIE:  But she's not a member of one of these seven  42 villages who are members of the Gitksan-Wet'suwet'en  43 tribal council, is she?  44 MR. GRANT:  You mean a band member?  45 MR. MACKENZIE:  46 Q    Yes.  47 A    No, she's not a band member. 4380  And she doesn't live in the Hazelton or the Bulkley  or Skeena River area to your knowledge; does she?  Not that I know of.  And now referring to the first page of that  document, Exhibit 342, this is the beginning of the  meeting on April 4, 1987.  And was Edward John at that  meeting?  Yes.  And he spoke to open the meeting?  Yes.  And you have written here he said on May 11:  "The Gitksan and Wet'suwet'en are going to  court and we want to settle our boundary line  before then."  Is that what he said to the best of your  recollection?  Yes.  And then he referred to the meeting in Moricetown;  didn't he?  Yes.  And at the end of -- later on just after that  reference to Moricetown he said:  "We will be discussing areas Thudate."  T-h-u-d-a-t-e?  That's the way I spelled it.  That's the way you spelled it, that's right, but  that's Thutade Lake that you are referring to, is it?  Well, that's how I heard it so -- that's how I heard  it so that's how I wrote it.  Thutade, Thutade, so  that's how I wrote it.  The next word is Cheslatta?  Yes.  And the next ledgible word appears to be White Sail;  is that correct?  Yes.  Can you remember what you may have written after  Cheslatta?  I don't know.  Maybe you can see it on that other  page, might show it.  My friend might have the original.  The other page,  I am sorry, is a photocopy.  Taken out.  47 MR. MACKENZIE:  No, it is a photocopy which isn't too clear.  1  Q  2  3  A  4  Q  5  6  7  8  A  9  Q  10  A  11  Q  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  A  20  Q  21  22  A  23  Q  24  25  26  27  28  29  A  30  Q  31  32  A  33  34  35  Q  36  A  37  Q  38  39  A  40  Q  41  42  A  43  44  Q  45  46  A 1  THE  2  MR.  3  MR.  4  5  6  7  8  MR.  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  THE  19  MR.  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  MR.  27  28  29  30  31  32  THE  33  34  MR.  35  36  37  38  THE  39  MR.  40  41  42  THE  43  MR.  44  45  46  47  4381  COURT:  It is Francis, isn't it?  GRANT:  Yes, it appears to be Francis.  MACKENZIE:  Q    Do you think that could be Francis Lake?  A    Maybe we can see the other copy here.  It might --  Q    Oh, yes, it is much clearer.  A    Yes, Francis Lake.  Some parts don't come out.  MACKENZIE:  Now, I note that at tab 15 of the book before  the witness, the court Exhibit 342 has a notation on  the top which I made, my lord:  "We need a better copy before  cross-examination",  so I don't want anyone to be under misapprehension  that that was on the original document and I don't  know how that got in there.  COURT:  That's your writing, is it?  MACKENZIE:  Yes, my lord.  It was put into my document book,  that's clearly what happened.  Yes.  Well, that's all  I want to speak about on that subject.  And could you  summarize then, Mrs. Wilson-Kenni, what happened on  the first two days of the meeting at Burns Lake on  April 4 and April 5, just summarize what happened in  general?  GRANT:  My lord, is that -- you now have three sets of notes  of this which are exhibits.  You have a set of notes  from Mr. Victor Jim and Neil Sterritt and you have a  set of notes from this witness.  I don't know if  that's a very fair question to ask a witness to  summarize two days of events.  COURT:  It may be that it is too general, but I don't think  the fact that there are notes is a --  GRANT:  That's what I mean.  The question is too general.  The reason I raised the notes is whether it is  necessary for her to give a synopsis of those three  sets of notes.  COURT:  Mr. Mackenzie, what do you want to do?  MACKENZIE:  Thank you, my lord.  I will just work on this  with Ms. Wilson-Kenni subject to your lordship's  directions.  COURT:  Thank you.  MACKENZIE:  Q    Mrs. Wilson-Kenni, at the meeting on April 4 and 5,  is it fair to say that the chiefs from Burns Lake and  the chiefs from the Wet'suwet'en areas discussed the  boundary between the two groups? 1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9 THE  10 THE  11  12  13  14 MR.  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  2 4 MR.  25  26  2 7 MR.  28  29  30  31  32  33  34 THE  35 MR.  36  37 THE  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  4 6 MR.  47  A  Q  A  COURT:  4382  Yes.  Yes.  And is it fair to say that at the end of that  meeting there was still some difference of opinion  with respect to the areas around Cheslatta Lake and  White Sail Lake?  I don't -- the feeling that I got -- the  understanding that I got after those -- end of those  meetings is that the Thutade area hadn't been settled.  :  Had not been settled?  WITNESS:  Had not been settled, and -- but that the Chapman  Lake area had been settled.  Now, what they settled  about it, I don't understand but that's just, you  know, from comments that I heard.  MACKENZIE:  Q    Now, you have told us you were present at the  meeting at Moricetown in 1986 and at the meeting in  Burns Lake in 1987.  Were you present at a meeting  between the Carrier Sekani and the Wet'suwet'en at  Moose Valley in September 1986?  A  Q  No.  No.  Are you aware that there was a meeting in that  month at that location?  A    We heard of a meeting, yes.  MACKENZIE:  Are you aware that the subject discussed was the  boundary between the Gitksan and the group of people  known as the Sustut'enne, S-u-s-t-u-t-'-e-n-n-e.  GRANT:  My lord, isn't this moving into the realm of hearsay  in a very strong way as to what was discussed at that  meeting?  And also it is not like it is something my  friend hasn't had an opportunity to canvas.  Mr.  Joseph, as I recall, was present at the meeting and  was extensively cross-examined on that subject.  The  persons who were there are much more available --  COURT:  I don't remember Mr. Joseph being examined on that.  GRANT:  I believe there was a witness who was present, but I  thought it was Mr. Joseph.  COURT:  I don't recall it but that wouldn't stop counsel  from examining on the question.  The more serious  difficulty is whether there is any point in just  asking what she heard about it.  Clearly get into  hearsay unless you're going to ask her if she heard  some things and as a result did she do this or did she  do that.  Then it's going to be of no relevance except  to fix possibly some information in her mind that  would explain what she later said or did.  MACKENZIE:  My lord, my recollection of Alfred Joseph's  testimony is that he, subject to corrections, that he 1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  THE COURT  MR.  MR.  2 9 THE  3 0 MR.  31  32  33 THE  34  35  3 6 MR.  37  3 8 MR.  39 THE  40  41 MR.  42  43  44  45  46  47  4383  attended the meeting but he didn't understand the  Gitksan.  He was just there as an interpreter.  That may be.  I don't recall the evidence about the  meeting at Moose Valley.  It may have been mentioned  but I don't have any recollection about any evidence  that I heard about that meeting.  MACKENZIE:  Q    Now, I am instructed that there were several people  representing the Gitksan and Wet'suwet'en at that  meeting.  Are you aware that Neil Sterritt Junior  attended that meeting, September of 1986, Moose  Valley?  Moose Valley, yes.  And are you aware Neil Sterritt Senior attended that  meeting?  Yes.  And do you know that David Gunanoot attended that  meeting?  I can't say for sure.  He might have been there.  Do you know that David Green attended that meeting?  That, I don't know.  Do you know that Alfred Joseph attended that  meeting?  Yes.  Do you know that Ralph Michell attended that  meeting?  I don't know that.  This is all hearsay, my lord.  No, not necessarily.  That she is -- the meeting that she didn't attend.  How else would she know the people that were  attending?  I am not pressing the point.  Hearsay is limited to proof of facts by secondhand  information. She's not giving evidence of any facts  that she learned from someone else.  She hasn't got into what happened at the meeting, I  guess.  MACKENZIE:  I take my friend's point, my lord.  COURT:  I don't see where it's going to take us but I don't  think his objection is relevant.  MACKENZIE:  Q    And are you aware that Mr. Hugh Brodie attended that  meeting?  I don't know if he went.  Are you aware of anyone else who attended that  meeting?  No, I am sorry, I don't.  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  GRANT  COURT  GRANT  COURT:  GRANT:  A  Q  A 4384  1 Q    Now, there was another meeting we have heard at Bear  2 Lake in the summer of 1985.  Are you aware of that  3 meeting?  4 A    No, I am not aware of it.  5 Q    Now, I would like to speak briefly about the  6 Moricetown meeting again which you attended and for  7 which we have a transcript, and I refer to page 8 of  8 the transcript of that meeting which is at tab 5 of  9 booklet number 1?  10 A    Page?  11 Q    Page 8 of tab 5.  And do you have that page before  12 you now?  Talking about Victor Jim's comments towards  13 the bottom of that page.  Victor Jim is down here at  14 the bottom of that page.  Now, the transcript says  15 that Victor Jim stated:  16  17 "I would like to call on Leonard George to  18 explain how the G.W.T.C. researched their  19 boundaries that are on the maps."  20  21 Do you recall Victor Jim saying something like that?  22 A    I can't remember hearing him saying that.  There  23 is -- a lot of people spoke and I -- I can't remember  24 it all, whether I wasn't listening at that time.  25 Q    Fine.  Mr. Victor Jim refers to maps up on the wall.  26 Do you recall there being maps on the wall at that  27 feast at Moricetown?  28 A    I think there was.  29 Q    Can you recall that there was more than one map?  30 A    No, I can't recall.  31 Q    Page 17, your mother was speaking and she speaks  32 about half-way down in her comments, she spoke with  33 her name Saaniilen.  Do you remember your mother  34 speaking at the Moricetown feast and she talks about  35 her name.  Do you remember her speaking about her  36 name, Saaniilen?  37 A    Yes.  38 Q    And she says that the meaning of that name is  39 "looking at the sun" in Wet'suwet'en?  Now, is that a  40 correct interpretation?  41 A    Saaniilen, "looking at the moon".  42 MR. GRANT:  I believe this document which is Exhibit 62 or 82, I  43 think it was a -- in my recollection, is that it was  44 not only a transcription but a translation of what was  45 said, my lord.  Most of this was in Wet'suwet'en.  46 MR. MACKENZIE:  47 Q    And at page 38, Neil Sterritt speaks.  Do you see 4385  1 that?  Page 38.  Now, Neil Sterritt was the president,  2 we have already established that, he was the president  3 of the tribal council at the time of the meeting in  4 1986, wasn't he?  5 A    Yes.  6 Q    And in this transcript he says at six, eight lines  7 up from the bottom:  8  9 "We have a big meeting with the Nishga on April  10 9th week."  11  12 See that?  13 A    Mm-hmm.  14 Q    Were you aware of that -- sorry, were you aware of  15 that meeting with the Nishga?  16 A    No.  17 Q    Do you know anything about that?  18 A    No.  I don't know anything about it.  19 Q    He says:  20  21 "We have a big meeting here today and last  22 summer we went to the Suskwe in Bear Lake and  23 Gitsagaas . "  24  25 Is that what he says?  26 A    He might have said that, I don't remember it.  27 There's —  2 8 Q    And he said:  29  30 "We had a very important meeting as I have  31 already mentioned."  32  33 Do you recall him saying that?  34 A    Might have said that, yes.  35 Q    And then you spoke at page 39.  You see your  36 comments there?  Is that the correct transcription of  37 your comments?  38 A    Yes.  Oh, I have got to read it first.  39 Q    Yes?  40 A    Yes.  41 MR. MACKENZIE:  Now, I want to ask you about other meetings.  42 Have you attended any other meetings such as these two  43 meetings in Moricetown and Burns Lake dealing with  44 neighbouring people, people neighbouring the  45 Gitksan-Wet'suwet'en land claims area?  46 MR. GRANT:  You mean All Clans Feasts.  47 MR. MACKENZIE: 1  Q  2  A  3  Q  4  A  5  6  7  Q  8  9  A  10  Q  11  12  13  A  14  Q  15  16  A  17  Q  18  19  20  A  21  Q  22  23  24  25  A  26  27  Q  28  A  29  Q  30  A  31  Q  32  33  A  34  Q  35  A  36  37  Q  38  39  A  40  Q  41  42  A  43  44  45  46  47  4386  Yes, All Clans Feast?  All Clans Feast, I don't -- no, I don't think so.  What was your answer, please?  I don't -- I can't remember right now whether I did  or not.  I just remember these right now.  I might  have gone.  There was a lot of meetings.  Your testimony earlier was that you attend as many  feasts as you can; is it not?  Yes.  Because you are particularly concerned about the  feast hall and the business that's done in the feast  hall?  Yes.  And you want to ensure that you are present.  Have  you attended those feasts with the Kitwancool nation?  What are you asking me?  Have you attended any feasts with the Kitwancool  nations speaking about the boundaries of the  territories?  I have been to feasts up there, yes.  Yes.  You mentioned that in your evidence that you  went up to Kitwancool.  Did you have, when you were at  those feasts, was there talk about the boundary -- the  Kitwancool territories?  I don't remember at this time.  I don't think it was  meeting about or feast about territory.  Have you been to any feasts with the Nishga people?  Feasts with the Nishga people?  Yes.  No.  Have you been to any meetings with the Nishga people  dealing with territories and boundaries?  I think I went to one Kitwanga.  And when was that, please?  I can't remember exact year, but it was -- I think  it was up in the valley where it was like a supper.  And what year would that be, sometime in the 1970's,  late 1970's?  Probably 80's, early 80's.  In the early 1980's, yes.  And did the Nishga people  at that meeting speak about their territories?  I think at that one they just made different  statements about where they thought the territories  were.  They weren't claiming anything.  It was similar  to this first meeting in Moricetown with the Carrier  Sekani, and that one also they said that they would be  inviting the Gitksan people to another feast in their 4387  1 territory, and I didn't go to that one.  I can't  2 remember why I didn't go, but I know that I didn't go  3 to that one.  4 Q    You recall that at that meeting in Kitwanga, was  5 there some discussion about Nishga territories and  6 Gitksan territories overlapping?  7 A    I think they just stated where they thought their  8 boundaries were.  They just stated where they thought  9 it was and that's as far as I understood it.  10 Q    Is it your recollection that the purpose of the  11 meeting was to try and resolve the boundaries in that  12 area?  13 A    That's what it sounded like.  14 MR. MACKENZIE:  And is it your feeling — sorry, your  15 recollection that there was a difference of opinion  16 about the location of the Nishga territories and the  17 Gitksan territories?  18 MR. GRANT:  Well, I'd ask my friend to be a bit more precise  19 here?  Little difference of opinion between whom and  20 we have a large number of Gitksan territories and  21 presumably -- well, Nishga territories.  Who's he  22 referring to?  23 THE COURT:  Yes, you can be more specific, Mr. Mackenzie.  24 MR. MACKENZIE:  25 Q    My lord, of course.  Did you take any notes of that  26 meeting in Kitwanga, Mrs. Wilson-Kenni?  2 7 A    No, I didn't.  28 Q    Do you recall there being maps used at that meeting  29 to show the different territories?  30 A    No, I don't remember maps somehow.  31 Q    Can you tell me who else was there representing the  32 Gitksan people?  33 A    There was quite a few of Gitksan people there.  34 Q    Was Neil Sterritt there?  35 A    Yes.  36 Q    And was there anyone there from Kitwanga or the  37 Gitwangak reserve?  38 A    Yes.  39 Q    Who was that, just one person?  40 A    I can't remember right now.  41 THE COURT:  Did there seem to be overlapping territories or  42 claims for territories?  43 THE WITNESS:  Well, at that time, I just heard about the  44 different areas.  They were just stating where they  45 believed their boundaries were and then the Nishga  46 said that they would be going home and talking to  47 their elders and the people who knew other people who MR.  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27 THE  2 8 THE  2 9 THE  30 THE  31 MR.  32  33  34  35  36  37 THE  3 8 MR.  3 9 MR.  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  4388  knew more about boundaries, and then there would be  another feast where they would invite the Gitksan to  their area to speak about it some more.  MACKENZIE:  Q    And now, do you recall when that second feast was  held, Mrs. Wilson-Kenni?  Do I recall --  The next feast that the Nishga invited?  Yes, they did invite the Gitksan over there.  When was that?  I can't remember when that was.  It would be in the early 1980's?  It would be in the 80's, yes, but I didn't go and I  can't remember why I didn't go.  How many people would you say were at the meeting at  Kitwanga?  There must have been more than 150 people there.  It  is quite a large hall.  Was it in the hall in the Gitwangak reserve or was  it up in Kitwancool or neither?  No, it was up in the valley.  Is that the Kitwancool valley?  Yes.  And what was the location?  What's the name of the  hall?  Kitwanga.  I just know it as Kitwanga Hall.  Kitwancool Hall?  Kitwanga.  Oh, I thought you said it was in Kitwancool valley?  No, Kitwanga valley.  MACKENZIE:  Q    Is that hall located north of Kitwanga on Highway  37?  Yes.  Highway 37?  On Highway 37?  Yes, Highway 37.  Is that a good place to stop, Mr. Mackenzie?  MACKENZIE:  Thank you, my lord.  GRANT:  Perhaps one point before going because of this  document at tab -- these are the notes that we have.  There were two pages missing and just so that you  know, one page that's missing is actually the fourth  page which just has Carrier Dancers on the top and  blanks, and I don't -- it is not really of anything  bearing.  And the other page was the fourth from the  last page which has two words on it and the  translation of those words reference to regalia, and  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  A  A  Q  A  Q  A  COURT:  WITNESS  COURT:  WITNESS  A  Q  A  COURT 4389  1 the witness indicated to Mr. Mackenzie and myself that  2 that was just her note of those words.  It wasn't  3 something discussed, so that's not -- those are the  4 two pages that aren't in the clear copy.  5 THE COURT:  All right.  We will adjourn then until tomorrow  6 morning at 10:00, please.  7 THE REGISTRAR:  Order in court.  Court stands adjourned until  8 ten.  9  10 (PROCEEDINGS ADJOURNED AT 4:01 P.M. TO MARCH 10, 198 8 AT  11 10:00 A.M.)  12  13  14 I hereby certify the foregoing to be  15 a true and accurate transcript of the  16 proceedings herein, transcribed to the  17 best of my skill and ability.  18  19  20  21  22  23 TANNIS DEFOE, Official Reporter  24 United Reporting Service Ltd.  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47


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