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Delgamuukw Trial Transcripts

[Proceedings of the Supreme Court of British Columbia 1988-03-17] British Columbia. Supreme Court Mar 17, 1988

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 4691  1 Vancouver, B.C.  2 March 17, 1988  3  4 THE REGISTRAR:  Calling Delgamuukw versus Her Majesty the Queen.  5 I caution the witness and interpreter you're still  6 under oath.  7 THE COURT:  Mr. Grant.  8  9 EXAMINATION IN CHIEF CONTINUED BY MR. GRANT:  Yes.  Thank you, my lord.  Mr. Mathews, yesterday when we ended off you were  talking about your territory at Tsihl Gwellii and  about certain histories of that territory.  Have you  yourself had any contact with Nishga people on your  Tsihl Gwellii territory?  Yes.  Just last summer around the end of August we  went out there to look for some -- some berries which  I indicated we go up there yearly to pick, salmon  berries, and on our way out there, when we got inside  the territory, which I indicated the logging road goes  up to get access into that area, we met a couple of  Nishgas that were there, and I asked them what they  were doing.  And at the time they were picking  mushrooms, and I asked them if they -- who did they  see.  I said did you know this is our territory you're  on here, this is ours, it belongs to our house, and he  said, no, we didn't get any permission.  So I says,  well, you better leave, which he did, and he just left  the bag of mushrooms, which I wasn't going to object  if he took it, but he did leave.  Do you know -- you knew this person was a Nishga?  Yes.  Do you know what house or clan he belonged to of the  Nishga?  No, I don't.  I'd like to move into another area now and more in  terms of your own personal background.  I'd like to  ask you about your education and your present  employment.  You went to Kitwanga Indian day school?  Yes, after we came back from Kitwancool.  I mean, we  stayed in Kitwancool for a couple of years.  Yes.  And I started school in Kitwancool a couple years, and  then we moved back to Kitwanga, which I attended  Indian day schools and upgraded by the missionaries.  It was -- the wife of an Anglican minister was then  the teacher by the name of Mrs. Hayhurst.  10  Q  11  12  13  14  15  16  A  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  Q  32  A  33  Q  34  35  A  36  Q  37  38  39  40  A  41  42  Q  43  A  44  45  46  47 4692  1 Q   Mrs.?  2 A   Hayhurst.  3 Q   Hayhurst.  And what grade did you go to at the Indian  4 day school?  5 A   I started like I said -- I started pretty late I might  6 add.  I started when I was seven years old.  At the  7 time I had rheumatism, and I couldn't walk around very  8 good at the time, but when I got out of that, I went  9 to school when I was seven years old.  And this was a  10 one class -- one small classroom.  We all went in  11 there from Grades 1 to Grade 8 because that was the  12 limitation you had in my days, that you attended  13 school until you reached Grade 8 and that was the end,  14 or if you turned 16, that was the end of the  15 education, which I did obtain up to Grade 8, and it  16 was same time I reached the age of 16.  17 Q   Okay.  Was there any incentive for the people of your  18 community when you were growing up to move off of the  19 Kitwanga reserve?  20 A  Well, my personal experience was that when we -- when  21 I say we, the whole -- all the children that were  22 there -- that when we try to speak our language, we  23 would be punished for it.  At the time they called it  24 strapping.  And as we got older, strapping wasn't no  25 longer effective because we just wiped it off and then  26 they would make us put our hands --  27 THE COURT:  I'm sorry, I'm not understanding, Mr. Mathews.  Are  28 you saying that you had a word in your language for  29 strapping or are you saying you were strapped if you  30 used the Indian language?  31 THE WITNESS:  Yeah, if we used our language, your lordship.  32 THE COURT:  Thank you.  33 THE WITNESS:  We would be punished for that.  And as we got  older, they used to make us put our hand on the desk  like that and get knocked across the knuckles.  For speaking your language?  For speaking our language, yes.  Did that happen to you?  Yes.  Were you punished for any other conduct related to --  Yes.  Our teacher was really against us trapping too.  And we used to trap squirrels and little weasels just  around the village.  Make our own traps.  We don't use  spring traps, we use Indian traps that we called dead  falls.  It's quite effective.  In our language we call  it Jebim gan, and that's an Indian -- that's all it is  34  35  3 6 MR.  GRANT  37  Q  38  A  39  Q  40  A  41  Q  42  A  43  44  45  46  47 4693  1 is a dead fall trap.  And we used to trap these  2 squirrels, and if our teacher would hear about these,  3 we would be held in detention and wrote down, "I shall  4 not trap again," or whatever it is.  5 Q   Now, did any of the families of the children that you  6 were growing up with move off the reserve because of  7 the education system?  8 A   Yes, some of them that wanted to go further into the  9 education system, some of our people, went off and  10 bought a piece of land off the reserve so that the  11 education system could go on further and not to stop  12 at Grade 8, which at the time we were forced to do.  13 Q   Why would -- why was it necessary to -- why did people  14 buy land in order to go further in education?  15 A  Well, I cannot speak for them, but I know that they  16 were talking about it, that if they would pay some  17 kind of a land tax, they were entitled to go further  18 into this education, which a lot of them did obtain  19 the teacher's degrees and all that is enjoyed by other  20 people that lived off the reserve.  And it really can  21 see that the bulk of us that stayed on the reserve  22 only up to Grade 8, or if some of them reached the age  23 of 16 -- my cousin Howard Fowler only obtain an  24 education of Grade 1, and he was 16 years old, so  25 that's how far his education went.  26 Q   So you were not entitled -- you were not able to go to  27 higher education at that time after Grade 8?  28 A   No.  When I got 16 years old on May 27th, 1956, I then  29 went and started working in the local sawmills that  30 they had around the area at the time.  When I was  31 finished at the age of 16, I went to work at the  32 sawmill up at Kitwancool, sawmill there they had.  33 Walter Douse was operating the sawmill there, so I  34 worked there for a while, and then I moved up -- up  35 the hill.  There was another sawmill there.  There was  36 various of these little mobile sawmills.  And then I  37 worked for Don Thistle for about five, six years in  38 the sawmill.  After that I -- then summer months --  39 like I was -- not that I really worked but that I  40 was -- became you might say the supplier of our house.  41 When I say my house, I mean my own immediate family,  42 my mother.  My dad was quite ill at the time, and he  43 was in Miller Bay Hospital, so I had to work on behalf  44 of my immediate family, and I did that until my dad  45 came out of the hospital again.  4 6 Q   Do you recall about how old you were when your dad  47 came out of the hospital? 1  A  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  Q  15  16  17  18  A  19  20  Q  21  A  22  23  Q  24  A  25  Q  26  A  27  28  Q  29  A  30  31  32  Q  33  A  34  Q  35  36  37  38  39  40  A  41  42  Q  43  44  45  A  46  Q  47  4694  Yeah, I was about -- well, it was about a year later.  I was about 17 years old when Dad came out of  hospital.  He got hurt himself working on these poles  that everybody was taking out of selective logging.  At the time they were just extracting cedar out of  there, and he was one of the top loaders.  And he  wasn't the only one I might add.  There was a bunch of  people that knew how to do this trade.  But then he  had an accident, that the P.V. caught and pulled his  arm out of joint and just couldn't heal, and that's  why he stayed in the hospital for a long time.  And at  the time there was no compensation or anything to  cover for him, so I provided for my family, yes.  Now, at that time when you were 16 and 17 and you were  working on these logging shows, who owned or who  operated these logging shows that you worked on, and  were there Gitksan people that did that?  The first one, yes, that was Walter Douse operated a  little sawmill.  And where was that?  It was approximately -- from Kitwanga it was about,  what, 13 and a half miles from there.  You're referring to the old road?  Going up to Kitwancool now.  Okay.  What kind of logging was done?  This -- at the time it was selective logging.  It was  strictly almost all spruce they were after.  What do you mean by selective logging?  Well, they didn't go into -- we didn't cut any hemlock  or pine.  It was just straight spruce that they were  taking out.  Do you know what clear-cut logging is?  Yes.  And maybe I could have the exhibit book put in front  of the witness for a moment.  I refer you again to  tab -- tab 10, the last page of the photographs, 47,  48, 49 and 50, which all are on the last page, I  believe.  Now, you see -- do you recognize where these  photographs are taken of?  It was on part of our territory up at the Tsihl  Gwellii area, yes.  Those mountains that are in the background in 47 and  50 and mid-ground in 48 and 49, are those on your  territory?  Yes.  And you see the clear white patches.  Is that logging  that has occurred on your territory? 1  A  Yes.  2  Q  Now,  3  A  Yes,  4  Q  Okay  5  like  6  17,   *  7  A  It  w<  4695  is that -- is that clear-cut logging?  this is what you call clear-cut logging.  Now, if you were -- if the logging there was  it was where -- when you were -- when you were  17, what would it look like?  It wouldn't look any near like this because when you  8 have selective logging, you're just taking out certain  9 species and, therefore, not disturbing the habitats of  10 the animals that are in there.  When you do this --  11 like what happens here is why we're concerned and why  12 we're before the courts here.  You see, what's  13 happened here is some of your biologists -- when I say  14 biologists, it's the provincial biologist -- says that  15 we're eaten out all the moose when it's not the case.  16 They're actually scaring them and driving out of their  17 habitat, which would very well lived into this  18 clear-cut area.  You wouldn't know a moose that will  19 stand in the middle of that clear-cut today and find  20 any place to eat.  And that is the very thing that's  21 hard for us to see these things happening because  22 this -- the moose I'm talking about, the squirrels,  23 the martens, and even the new prized mushroom I was  24 talking about would never grow into a clear-cut.  Our  25 berries would never grow in that.  It would grow, but  26 it would be a different kind of berries we call in our  27 language 'mii gan, and it all -- it just means that  28 they're wood berries, they're bush berries.  They have  29 no texture.  They're too sour and seedy.  And if you  30 try to preserve these berries, you put tons and tons  31 of sugar there and it would never sweeten it up very  32 much.  So that is our concern about these clear-cuts  33 coming in our territories.  34 Q   Okay.  Just one moment.  Can you just give the  35 spelling for that?  Was that the name of the berry you  36 gave?  37 A  Which one was that?  38 THE TRANSLATOR:  'Mii gan  39 THE WITNESS:  'Mii gan.  Yeah, that's a berry.  40 THE TRANSLATOR:  'Mii gan, '-m-i-i, space, g, underline, a-n.  41 THE COURT:  And what is that, the new kind of berries or the old  42 kind of berries?  43 THE WITNESS:  It's well-known around the coast.  They just grow  44 wildly in the bushed area.  And they kind of look like  45 a huckleberry, but the texture, the taste -- and it's  46 just a light blue powdery colour on the outside.  It's  47 nowhere near our huckleberries. 1 MR.  GRANT  2 THE  COURT  3  4 THE  WITNE  5 MR.  GRANT  6  Q  7  8  A  9  Q  10  11  12  13  A  14  15  16  17  18  Q  19  20  A  21  22  23  Q  24  25  A  26  Q  27  28  A  29  30  31  Q  32  A  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  Q  47  A  4696  :  But what his lordship was asking you —  :  Oh, I have the answer.  This is the new kind of  berry.  3S:  Yes.  This is the kind of berries that now grows on the  clear-cuts?  Yes.  Now, at the time you were working you were still --  when you were growing up and you were working on the  selective logging, you were still living at Gitwingax  with your family?  Yes.  We didn't actually live in Kitwanga.  There were  logging camps, and every week-end we would go home  because you cannot expect me to run 13 miles a day to  try and be on time for work.  There were little  logging camps available for living accommodations.  Did you still go out -- did you go out on your  territories at that time with your grandfathers?  Yes.  During the summer months we would go there and  get some fish and the berries that were up on the  mountains.  Now, you are presently working at the sawmill at  Kitwanga?  Yes.  Can you tell the Court what happened and how you  became involved with the sawmill at Kitwanga?  It was in the year 1970.  I don't know what month they  started, but when I came back -- when I say came back,  I do commercial fishing too.  Um hum.  And when we came back from the coast in September,  they were clearing land for this sawmill.  And I might  add it was no surprise because they had meetings about  the sawmill being put into Kitwanga.  The hereditary  chiefs were asked if permission be granted that this  sawmill would be put in Kitwanga, and they did put it  on.  They agreed that they would put it on the  railroad side of Kitwanga.  And at the time the mill  was put in C.N. were -- said -- allegedly said they  owned our industrial park, and only the burner was on  our reserve.  And anyway, the mill was built.  And  when I came back in 1971, the mill was built in 1970.  I didn't start working there until 1971 of September  20th, and I've been there since.  And what is your job there today?  Today the head saw filer. 1  Q  2  A  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  Q  33  A  34  35  36  37  38  39  Q  40  A  41  42  43  44  Q  45  A  46  Q  47  A  4697  And you took an apprenticeship programme for that?  Yes, I had to go through the apprenticeship programme.  And what happened is that when you're working on the  sawmill, there would be a job opening, and they would  place what you call a job bid, and it was there for a  week, and anybody that was a full member of a union  that was there then in force would participate and had  to write to go and put your name into the bid, and  that's what I did, and I was successful to obtaining  the job bid.  And the reason I at the time was  successful there was that I had seniority rights, and  that seniority just means I had been working there and  gained experience.  And I started my pre-apprentice  programme for two years before I actually went in for  my -- the first part of the saw filing.  It's -- it --  it graduates.  The first two years in my pre-  apprentice I worked in the shop.  When I say the shop,  the filing room where all these things are taking  place.  And after I completed two years pre-  apprentice, I then went to see our personnel manager  for going into the apprentice, try to get on the  apprenticeship programme, and we went over, and he  took out my job application, and he said, "I'm sorry,  I don't think you can make it on the apprenticeship  programme because you're only a Grade 8 student," and  it required a Grade 10 or a Grade 12.  Anyway, I  argued with him, but it might be just my luck they  moved him somewhere else.  He had -- he was promoted  outside of the -- on one of the subsidiaries of the  mill, and we had a new personnel manager which was  more sympathetic.  Um hum.  And he then said, "We'll put you on, and we'll give  you a trial run.  We'll see what happens the first  year that you go into this programme."  And I did --  was successful in going into the programme, and I  obtained my -- what they called -- what you call this  ticket now.  The first one is --  Apprenticeship?  Yeah, I got on the apprenticeship, but this specified  trade I wanted to go but then was the -- what you call  the -- the first step in saw filing.  I forget the  name of it now but --  Circular saw filing?  No, the lower one than that.  In any event --  Yes. 1  Q  2  3  A  4  Q  5  A  6  7  Q  8  A  9  Q  10  A  11  Q  12  13  A  14  15  16  Q  17  A  18  19  20  21  22  23  Q  24  A  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  Q  32  33  34  35  A  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  4698  -- you have completed that, and you are now the head  saw filer?  Um hum.  How long have you been the head saw filer?  Since before I even obtained my circular saw.  I  started being a head filer in '81.  There is a union at the Westar mill?  Yeah.  This is now the Westar mill?  Now it belongs to Westar, yes.  And it was -- before when you started it was the Col.  sawmill, Columbia Cellulose; is that right?  Well, it's been there 17 years, and I've worked for  three different companies you might say, but just the  names have been changed about three times.  Okay.  And the union there is the I.W.A.?  Yes.  It didn't start off like that.  They had -- I  don't know the real title that little union there had.  It was a Canadian Christian union.  I don't know the  proper heading because -- but when -- after about two  years into the mill then I.W.A. had certification on  the mill.  Have you been active in the union?  If you work on the sawmill, you have to be a member of  that union.  And I've been quite active, and I've been  the plant chairman for some years now.  And last year  I stepped down from the position of that chairmanship  of the local.  Just -- when I say local, it's just the  Kitwanga area, not the whole Local 171.  I'm talking  like just our little mill.  How do you relate your work being employed by the mill  and your activities as the plant chairman of the union  with your position as Tenimgyet, the wolf chief of  Kitwanga?  Yeah, yes.  When we first started off -- I was not  Tenimgyet until 1983 — '81.  '81.  And at the time —  like you say, when I got to be Tenimgyet, the last few  years now that my role I could see changed.  I --  what -- my job as the head of the local there as the  chairman I -- I know it, and I talked to other chiefs  of the village, and I told them that this is a good  role for simoogit to carry because what happens is you  are taking control to look after your very own people  that are not -- I'm not going to use the word cheated,  but that they were dealt with in the right -- right  way.  And if they would be dismissed, you had the  opportunity to go see the manager there, yes, the 4699  1 manager, and see that it was justified that they were  2 dismissed, or there would be what they call when  3 you -- you have missed work or something that they  4 would send you home to miss two or three days because  5 that -- there are certain rules you have to follow.  6 So my role as simoogit I thought was -- I had taken --  7 and I know I had taken control, and my role was right.  8 MR. GRANT:  Now, just to go back to that for a moment, you've  9 indicated, and I'll refer to Exhibit -- tab 2.  Tab 3  10 I should say.  11 THE REGISTRAR:  Exhibit 348.  12 MR. GRANT:  13 Q   Yes.  Thank you.  This is the seating chart.  Now,  14 amongst the wolf clan, the different -- how many wolf  15 clans -- houses are there of the wolf clan in  16 Gitwingax?  17 A   Houses?  One.  18 Q   And that is yours?  19 A   Yes.  20 Q   And would it be correct -- are you one of the -- then  21 one of the head chiefs of the village?  22 A   Yes, me and my uncle, Henry Tait, Ax tii hiikw.  23 Q   Now, you know that Westar, the sawmill that you work  24 at, they get wood from the area around where you --  25 around Gitwingax; is that right?  26 A   Yes.  27 Q   I guess from further and further away as time goes on?  28 A   Yes.  I might add that this sawmill in Kitwanga  29 provides jobs not only for us living in Kitwanga,  30 there are some people, some of our people -- when I  31 say our, the whole Gitksan and Wet'suwet'en work  32 there.  There is some from Kitwancool that work on  33 that mill and some from Kitsegukla, some from  34 Gitanmaaxs, some from Hagwilget, some from Moricetown,  35 and some from Kispiox besides all ourselves.  And  36 it -- and at the height -- when I say height, at the  37 peak of any operation it might employ up to 102 people  38 with work there.  39 THE COURT:  Up to 102 people?  40 THE WITNESS:  102, yes.  It has its low points too.  41 MR. GRANT:  42 Q   Now, of the 102 people at its height or of those who  43 are employed regularly, you've described that they  44 come from these other villages.  These are all Gitksan  45 and Wet'suwet'en villages you're referring to; is that  46 correct?  47 A   Yes. 4700  1 Q   Are -- what approximate percentage of the employees  2 are Gitksan or Wet'suwet'en?  3 A   It would be in around -- we outnumbered non-Indians  4 there.  It would be around 80 per cent of us, and most  5 of the major positions are taken up by us.  When I say  6 us, I mean the natives.  Myself, I've run the saws,  7 the saw filing part of it.  I'm the head saw filer.  8 Tommy Johnson, another native Gitwingax, he's in  9 charge of the maintenance department.  10 Q   Is he a Gitksan?  11 A   Yes.  And we -- like I said, then there's one, two,  12 three -- three supervisors.  Shift supervisors are all  13 natives.  And the operators.  When I say operators,  14 they're -- we got the cut-off saw, we got the  15 debarker, we got the chipping saw, and they're all  16 native people running these.  And the only place where  17 we have white working there is some of them are under  18 the direction of Tommy Johnson in the millwright  19 department, and the only place where non-white --  20 non-Indian, that is in the electrical department, but  21 we have two of our people apprenticing under him there  22 so -- but you could see all the major parts of the  23 mill have been taken over by us, yes.  24 Q   I'd like to move to another but a related area, and  25 I'm going to come back to what you've just been  26 talking about.  And I'd like to refer you to -- to tab  27 13 of your document book.  It appears to be a letter  28 dated December 3rd, 1987.  Is that your signature  29 second from the top on that letter?  30 A   Yes.  31 Q   Okay.  And that was a letter to the district manager  32 regarding a timber sale licence?  33 A   Yes.  The reason why this letter was written --  34 MR. PLANT:  Before the witness carries on, my lord, I'm going to  35 object to this evidence and other similar evidence  36 which my friend may anticipate leading.  I say that  37 this letter can't assist your lordship in determining  38 any of the issues in this case.  It's irrelevant.  39 It's potentially inflammatory.  It's at the best  40 self-serving.  It's evidence of extremely recent  41 manufacture, and I say that assertions of rights of  42 this kind by the Plaintiffs after the commencement of  43 this action can't assist them in their claim, and I'm  44 concerned that however you look at evidence of this  45 kind it's incapable of having any weight attached to  46 it because of its recent origin, and for that reason I  47 would strongly urge your lordship to rule this kind of 4701  1 evidence, evidence of this recent manufacture, as  2 inadmissible.  3 THE COURT:  Mr. Macaulay, are you objecting?  4 MR. MACAULAY:  No, I'm not objecting to this evidence, my lord.  5 The witness is entitled to say I objected to this  6 practice or I objected to that practice for the  7 following reasons and I did so during the course of  8 the trial in December 1987.  The problem is not quite  9 one of admissibility or irrelevance.  It's a question  10 of weight, and that's for your lordship to decide at  11 the conclusion of the trial whether this will assist  12 your lordship.  That's my submission.  13 MR. PLANT:  I would just like to augment my friend Mr.  14 Macaulay's point by saying that where evidence is  15 incapable of having any weight it ought to be ruled  16 inadmissible, and this evidence is incapable of having  17 any weight.  18 MR. GRANT:  Before making any comment on it --  19 THE COURT:  Well, I don't think I need to hear you, Mr. Grant.  20 I think I would admit it.  I don't think I would if it  21 had been written to somebody other than an arm of the  22 Provincial Crown, but inasmuch as it's written to the  23 Provincial Crown, presumably, unless it's disputed  24 that it was received.  I have some misgivings about  25 whether it has any weight at all, and I don't think I  26 am prepared to rule at this moment that it has no  27 weight at all.  It is probably self-serving, it's  28 written late in the day, and there may be other  29 objections to it, but I think that the best way to  30 deal with the matter is proceeding with it subject to  31 objection.  32 MR. GRANT  33 THE COURT  34 MR. GRANT  Yes.  If you're tendering it.  Yes, I am tendering it as the next exhibit, my lord.  35 THE REGISTRAR:  Exhibit 356, tab 13.  36  37 (EXHIBIT 356 - TAB 13, LETTER DATED DECEMBER 3, 1987)  38  39 MR. GRANT:  That is the first letter of tab 13.  Before  40 proceeding further --  41 THE COURT:  Is there more than one?  42 MR. GRANT:  Yes, there's another letter that appears under it,  43 my lord.  It should have been in a separate --  44 THE COURT:  All right.  4 5 MR. GRANT:  46 Q   -- pocket, and I'll deal with that second letter  47 later. 1  2  3  A  4  5  6  Q  7  A  8  Q  9  A  10  Q  11  A  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  Q  25  26  27  28  A  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  Q  37  A  38  39  Q  40  41  A  42  MR.  PLANT  43  MR.  GRANT  44  MR.  PLANT  45  46  THE  COURT  47  MR.  GRANT  4702  What initiated the sending of this letter to the  district manager in December of last year?  This -- how this letter appeared was they had  approached one of the people here present in this  courtroom.  Who had approached?  They had approached him.  But who had approached him?  The forester from Hazelton that came --  Okay.  -- and asked if we would allow logging in this general  area we're speaking here, which is in our territory,  through oral or reading.  And then he -- he -- I say  the person that's present here in the courtroom came  to me and told me of their intentions.  When I say  they, I mean the foresters or the logger  subcontractor's intention of going in there and  logging the area.  And he then said, well, we can't do  that, we have to have permission from the chiefs that  own this territory.  But they did not listen.  They  went right ahead after they said, well, we'll -- they  asked us for permission.  We said no.  Anyway, they  went out.  Just if I can go back a moment, in relation to this  letter, which is dated December 3rd, '87, how long  before that had the district manager approached you or  this other person?  Well, this has been going on now -- this is -- this  particular sale, this has been going on now for the  last about three years, you know, that they've started  there. And the first subcontractor they had before  this one was a fellow by the name of Ralph Perry was  on the site, and we had went up to see him and told  him to stop, that it was ours, and he did then stop  logging in this area.  Ralph Perry was a logging contractor?  He was, yeah.  This is -- these -- this  are just small outfits.  They did stop,  Now, this logging, is this occurring --  your territories is this logging?  This is --  If any.  We'll get to that point.  Well, I'm sorry, but my friend's question was  leading.  Yes , it was.  these  yes .  on which of 1  Q  2  3  A  4  Q  5  6  A  7  8  Q  9  10  11  12  A  13  Q  14  15  A  16  17  Q  18  A  19  MR.  GRANT  20  21  22  MR.  PLANT  23  24  25  26  THE  COURT  27  THE  WITNE  28  MR.  PLANT  29  30  31  32  MR.  GRANT  33  Q  34  35  A  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  Q  43  44  45  A  46  Q  47  4703  Yes.  I take my friend's point.  Has any logging occurred?  Yes.  On which territory has logging occurred with respect  to this?  This one has been taking place, like I said, on our  Xsi gwin ixst'aat territory.  Now, you've said that this logging or that this  logging sale had been going on for three years.  You  also said that a person approached you about the  district manager's inquiries?  Um hum.  How long before this letter did that person approach  you?  I would think it was around the end of July, early  August.  Of last year?  Yes.  :  And how long -- was that at around the time the  person had communicated to him or was it sometime  earlier?  :  Perhaps we could have names, my lord.  I can't be  expected to respond -- to investigate this matter  without at least having some idea of who these people  are that are said to have had these conversations.  :  Yes.  All right.  3S:  This was talked to through me to Ray Morgan.  :  So does the witness have any personal knowledge of  the matters that he's speaking to or is he relying on  what was told to him by Mr. Morgan?  If it's the  latter, then I object.  You wrote this letter to the district manager or you  signed this letter to the district manager?  Yes.  I signed it because, like I said, we had a  meeting between, and I've explained that these --  Richard, Willis, all the Morgan brothers are survivors  of my grandfather, which they have entitled.  I said  yes, through amnigwootxw.  That's why we had this  meeting, and we then put this letter together and we  send it in.  Okay.  Now, I'd like you to refer to -- in the same  pouch there's a second letter.  Have you seen that  letter before dated January 19th, 1988?  Yes.  And is that -- and how did that letter come to your  attention? 1  A  2  3  4  5  6  7  MR.  GRANT  8  9  THE  REGIS  10  MR.  GRANT  11  12  13  THE  COURT  14  THE  REGIS  15  16  17  18  MR.  GRANT  19  Q  20  21  22  23  A  24  Q  25  26  27  A  28  MR.  GRANT  29  30  31  32  33  THE  COURT  34  MR.  GRANT  35  THE  COURT  36  37  38  39  MR.  GRANT  40  THE  COURT  41  MR.  GRANT  42  43  44  THE  COURT  45  46  MR.  GRANT  47  THE  COURT  4704  This was then Ray Morgan, Xsuu.  Ray Morgan, Xsuu,  came to me again and showed me the reply of the letter  we had sent in, and we had another little discussion  over this letter we had here, which we thought didn't  answer our question, that it just -- well, it's not  the type of answer we wanted to hear.  :  I'd ask that that letter be marked as the next  exhibit, please.  ?RAR:  Is that the reply to the letter?  :  Yes, it's a January 19th, 1988, letter from the  district manager to Ray Morgan.  It's a reply to the  December 3rd, 1987, letter.  :  367.  ?RAR:  367.  (EXHIBIT 367 - LETTER DATED JANUARY 19, 1988)  Have you yourself been involved in any discussions  with the district manager or with any representatives  of Forestry, of the Minister of Forests and Lands  regarding the logging on your Wilson Creek territory?  No.  Have you been present during any meetings with any of  the other persons and representatives of the district  manager?  No.  :  Okay.  Have you -- what are your -- can you tell the  Court what your concerns are regarding the logging on  your territories, and I'll say territories because  you've already shown photos of the Tsihl Gwellii  territory where logging has occurred?  Well, Mr. Grant, how can I deal with concerns?  Okay.  Let me ask --  They may be rational or irrational.  I just don't  know.  And are you going to ask the witness to say  what the consequences of future logging will be on his  territory?  No.  What I want --  There are limits to how much we can allow.  No.  I understand, my lord.  No, I'm not intending  to ask that because that -- I don't want to be in the  hypothetical realm.  I wonder if people are obsessed with concerns these  days .  It's my phraseology.  I have a problem with it. 1  MR.  GRANT  2  3  THE  COURT  4  MR.  GRANT  5  Q  6  7  A  8  9  10  11  Q  12  A  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  MR.  GRANT  22  THE  REGIS1  23  MR.  GRANT  24  Q  25  26  27  28  29  A  30  31  32  Q  33  A  34  35  36  37  38  39  Q  40  41  A  42  43  Q  44  45  A  46  47  4705  :  It's my phraseology, and I will correct my  phraseology.  :  We all have lots of concerns.  You indicated that you talked to Mr. Perry at Wilson  Creek and asked him to stop logging.  Why?  Because we had ownership.  When I say ownership, we  approached him and told him this belongs to the House  of Tenimgyet and Ax tii hiikw territory you're on and  we haven't granted you consent.  Why did you not consent to him logging?  Because I have indicated when you look at clear-cut in  practice, that that scares off animals.  And I have  indicated that we have a bear den at one of these,  that their intentions are going to be in that general  area of below Win luu gan, one of our berry paths  there, which I had already mentioned.  That part of  the country, that part of the territory is very sacred  and very spiritual to me of what my uncle did to me  when me and him went to get the bear into this den.  :  If you could refer for a moment to tab 7.  ?RAR:  Exhibit 355, my lord.  Yes, thank you.  And I'm showing you the second photo of the three  photos in Exhibit 355.  Can you see there where the  logging -- or has there been logging on this Wilson  Creek territory now?  There has been, but it's out of sight.  It's on the  flatter area, but their intentions is starting to  focus on the upper valleys --  Okay.  -- on the sides of the mountains.  That's why we are  really upset.  And if we have to, we'll take other  measures.  And the reason why we haven't done that is  we have said in the letter that we will hope that this  Court will have to deal with this so we don't have to  go to extremes.  Okay.  Now, the logging that's occurring on Wilson  Creek, is that selective logging or clear-cut logging?  It -- it is clear-cut.  If you went up there and seen  it, it's starting to -- to widen a big area.  How long has logging actually occurred on your Wilson  Creek territory?  There -- there was some at a while back.  I can't  remember the dates.  But that was selective logging  that was done here years ago to take out some cedar, 1  2  3  4  Q  5  A  6  7  MR.  GRANT  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  MR.  PLANT  16  17  18  MR.  GRANT  19  Q  20  21  A  22  23  24  THE  COURT  25  26  27  MR.  PLANT  28  29  30  THE  COURT  31  MR.  PLANT  32  33  34  THE  COURT  35  MR.  PLANT  36  THE  COURT  37  MR.  GRANT  38  Q  39  40  41  42  43  A  44  Q  45  46  47  4706  and it didn't do any damage to the territory.  It left  it say intact and -- because of the selective logging  they did in the area.  Now, how long has clear-cut occurred on Wilson Creek?  It just appeared, like I say, about three years ago  when -- in around that area where they have started.  :  Okay.  Now, Mr. Mathews, you've described your job,  you described that you work at the mill, and you've  described this logging on your territory.  Can you  explain to the Court how you reconcile working at the  Westar mill, which uses wood presumably from logging  and from clear-cut logging presumably, how you  reconcile that with your concern about the logging on  your territory?  :  Well, perhaps my friend could establish if the  Westar mill does conduct clear-cut logging operations.  I'm not certain that that's been established.  Do you know if the Westar mill is involved in clear-  cut logging operations?  That's their whole name, clear-cut.  We always call  them clear-cut.  It is their -- their general  practices that they have.  :  Is it your point, Mr. Grant, that -- I'm sorry --  Mr. Plant, that perhaps they use contractors or  something like that or are you --  :  No, my concern was that my friend's question  contained a presumption that had not been established  in the evidence.  :  All right.  :  I'd be very surprised if all of the logging in  question was done by the Westar mill, but I have no  knowledge.  That's not the point of your objection?  No.  All right.  Mr. Grant.  I'm sorry, it was a presumption, my lord.  To anyone  living in the area it's a presumption that is obvious,  I guess, and I am sorry.  It needs to be established.  In any event, you -- so to your knowledge Westar  does clear-cut log?  Yes.  So how -- can you explain to the Court how you  reconcile working for Westar, who, as you say, you  refer to as clear-cut, and reconcile that with your  concern or with -- reconcile that with the -- with the 1  2  3       A  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18 MR. GRANT  19  2 0 THE  21 MR.  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  COURT  GRANT  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  4707  fact that you're not -- you do not agree that they  should clear-cut log on your territory?  Well, I have indicated that all the bands, the  Gitksan, Wet'suwet'en all work there, and what we then  receive through wages and obtain through these hourly  works that we perform, if you would compare that with  the vast amount of wealth that's been extracted out of  the territory, it's just a drop in a bucket.  And we,  like I say that, when we do work for them and they do  clear-cut, but that -- what we get out of it in return  is no comparison to the vast amount of wealth that's  gone out and -- and the driving away of animals, fur-  bearing animals, and the habitat of others that might  enjoy the forest.  And that is our concern, that this  practice should be slowed down or stopped altogether,  and that is the reason why I said we do not concur  with the practice of clear-cut.  :  Referring you back to tab 11, the last four  photographs, 47 through to 50 inclusive --  :  Is that 10, Mr. Grant?  Tab 10, yes.  I'm sorry.  Exhibit 351.  Have you consented to any of that clear-cut  logging or any of the logging that is visible in those  photographs which you say has occurred on your  territory?  No, we haven't consented.  If you see -- what number  is this here -- 49.  Yes, 49.  49.  I told an adaawk concerning this mountain.  This  mountain is -- we call it Ts'imaakhl gan k'ok', which  used to obtain caribou, and the disappearance of the  caribou in this area seemed to have indicated that  when the telegraph lines were put in here that these  caribou no longer exist here, and so as this area now  today, that contains -- moose and deer have been  driven out of this area, and this is a real concern of  ours, to see it -- the balance of nature has been  upset by clear-cut.  What do the moose and deer rely on for food?  Yes.  When you clear-cut, the very word clear-cut  means they cut everything down right from underbrush  to the very food, you might say, of these moose, like  poplar.  It's not been utilized in any way, shape or  form, it's just been cut down and burnt.  And some of  the -- the -- some of the trees that they rely on, the  poplar and the -- what you call this -- I don't know 1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  4708  what you call it in our language -- aspen.  Thank you  very much.  That has been destroyed and just piled up  and burnt.  MR. GRANT:  Now, I'd like to -- I think it may be as convenient  now as any other time.  I don't know what positions my  friends may take, although I have corresponded with  them about this.  There are a series of maps, my lord,  that have been prepared that are -- relate to let me  say certain biological or botanical features regarding  the territory that's the subject matter of this  litigation.  These were delivered to the other side  some months -- several months ago, I believe, and I  indicated in correspondence that I would be tendering  them now.  I have no problem with tendering them for  identification at this point.  Some of these maps are  the appendices to expert witness' reports which would  be filed in due course.  But they -- for convenience  or inconvenience, depending on one's view, they've  been put together in a bound edition, and there will  be further maps which -- none of the maps which I'm  tendering have not been disclosed to my friends.  We  anticipate there may be further maps that will go into  that same volume.  And the reason I'd like to  introduce them now is because I would like -- in this  witness's evidence I would like him to refer to some  unique characteristics of the Tsihl Gwellii territory,  and the maps visually show some of the characteristics  of the resources to which he's referring as distinct  with the other territories.  So I would -- I would  propose to tender one of these.  I have a copy for the  Court, and I have a copy as an exhibit.  And in due  course, as Mr. Macaulay has said, I will have a copy  of the binder for my friends.  They do have the maps  themselves though.  THE COURT:  Mr. Plant and Mr. Macaulay.  MR. PLANT:  Well, what my friend is intending to do is to lead  the witness through a map that some expert prepared.  I'd prefer to hear the evidence without the benefit of  the map because the map will suggest the answers to  the questions that my friend is asking.  But I don't  know how this witness can identify or prove these maps  in any way, but I don't have any objection, generally  speaking, to documents being tendered for identification on the basis that they're going to be proven  later.  I do have some concern with opening a map that  purports to show where grizzly bear are in  Northwestern British Columbia and then asking this PLANT:  COURT  PLANT  GRANT  PLANT  4709  witness some questions when we're all looking at the  answer to all the questions, at least an answer in the  opinion of an expert retained by the Plaintiffs.  MR. GRANT:  I don't propose to have the map in front of the  witness.  The purpose of the map, my lord, is for you  and for counsel to refer to, not the witness.  This  witness doesn't need a map to show what these are, but  it would certainly give a visual description for you,  and you would be able to see that relationship.  It's  not in any way to put the answer in front of the  witness.  I don't think he needs any assistance by  maps himself, but it may help counsel and the Court.  COURT:  Mr. Macaulay.  MACAULAY:  I have no objection to the maps being used on  that basis at all.  I am assuming Mr. Grant will be  leading expert evidence on those maps.  On the basis of what my friend has just said, I  have -- I withdraw my objection.  All right.  Which map are we looking at first?  Yes, I will advise my friends.  Oh, I do have one other concern.  Although I haven't  gone back to check the correspondence, my -- I have a  note on my label that says "Preliminary Copies," which  I would take -- assume means that at the time these  maps were delivered to us the Plaintiffs wished to  make some reservations with respect to their accuracy.  Do I take it that my friend is now of the position  that these maps are the final product to the extent,  that is to say, there may be other maps coming, but  that these maps are no longer draft or preliminary  maps, if indeed they ever were?  GRANT:  Well, my instructions are that the maps that are in  the binder are the final maps, my lord, and I will  just indicate the copyright date on them.  Map 2 is  January of '87, map 3 is January of '87 and so on  from -- map 2 through to map 19 consecutively are all  January of 1987, and so those would be the same maps  that were delivered.  And then there's no map 2 0 in  this -- at this point in this book.  Map 21 is January  of '87.  So these -- my instructions are that these  are the same maps.  There's an extended legend that my  friend received, and that's not part of this atlas at  this point.  MACAULAY:  We haven't got a map 21, if there's a map 21  there.  We received a set numbered 2 to 19 so --  GRANT:  I'm not going to be referring to the map 21 in any  9  10  11  12  13 THE  14 MR.  15  16  17 MR.  18  19 THE  2 0 MR.  21 MR.  22 MR.  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33 MR.  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  4 5 MR.  46  4 7 MR. GRANT:  PLANT:  4710  1 event, but I will inquire into that and have a copy  2 produced.  I won't be referring to it with this  3 witness.  Clearly, my lord, cartographers have a  4 different sense of convenience than counsel.  5 THE COURT:  Yes.  6 MR. PLANT:  There is one last matter.  I wonder if I could  7 borrow the extra copy because I seem not to have maps,  8 well, 2 to 10 or whatever there are in that series, so  I don't have anything to refer to.  You mean you haven't --  I don't have them with me.  My understanding is that  we got them.  But may I trouble you, Madam Registrar,  for that?  Now, the first map I wish to refer to is map number  11, and this is a map relating to caribou.  It's the  first of the series relating to a series of animals.  And just so the Court can appreciate, the boundaries  of the territory are outlined in black, and you can  see -- you can see on the map that this map, my lord,  is on an east-west orientation.  I might interject at this moment, my lord.  The maps  that were delivered to me did not have the external  claim.  Yes.  Yes, there they are right there.  No, those aren't the maps.  27 MR. GRANT:  Oh, I see.  2 8 MR. MACAULAY:  Perhaps if there could be an adjournment now and  29 we can see if we're all singing from the same song  30 sheet.  31 THE COURT:  All right.  Thank you.  Certainly we will adjourn  32 now then.  Best offer I've had this morning.  33 THE REGISTRAR:  Order in court.  Court will recess.  34  (PROCEEDINGS ADJOURNED AT 11:10 A.M.)  9  10 MR  11 MR  12  13  14 MR. GRANT  15  16  17  18  19  20  21 MR. PLANT  22  23  2 4 THE COURT  2 5 MR. GRANT  2 6 MR. PLANT  GRANT  35  36  37  38  I hereby certify the foregoing to be  a true and accurate transcript of the  39 proceedings herein to the best of my  skill and ability.  40  41  42  43    44 Leanna Smith  45 Official Reporter  46 United Reporting Service Ltd.  47 4711  1        (PROCEEDINGS RECONVENED AT 11:30)  2  3 THE REGISTRAR: Order in court.  Ready to proceed, My Lord.  4 THE COURT:  Thank you.  Well, are your friends in tune with you,  5 Mr. Grant?  6 MR. GRANT:  They haven't said anything to me so I assume that  7 silence is golden, My Lord.  8 MR. MACAULAY:  Well, what we haven't got on our map is the  9 outline of the -- current outline of the claim area on  10 our maps, and that's I suppose easily remedied  11 inexpensively by having an overlay, a plastic overlay,  12 one that we can use with each map.  13 THE COURT:  Yes.  14 MR. MACAULAY: And I think that's probably the solution.  15 MR. GRANT:  Well, I have an easier solution for my friend and  16 that is that I -- in the break I've got an additional  17 set and I thought there was another additional set,  18 and I've now given -- provided Mr. Plant with a set  19 identical to the court.  I thought that the copies had  20 that overlay on them, but he now has -- Mr. Plant now  21 has a binder for the province and I will arrange for  22 copies identical -- of the identical maps for Mr.  23 Macaulay.  I'm going to have to arrange for that and  24 make sure -- I anticipate I'll have them -- I'll see  25 what I can do over the lunch hour.  2 6 THE COURT:  All right.  27 MR. MACAULAY: That will solve the problem.  28 MR. GRANT:  Now, I'd ask that this book be marked as the next  29 exhibit number and I propose that the maps would be  30 referred to, for example, the first map in the book as  31 it now stands would be whatever that exhibit number  32 is --  33 THE COURT:  Yes.  34 MR. GRANT:  -- (2) so that the numbers coincide with the numbers  35 on the maps so it may be easiest for you.  36 THE COURT:  All right.  Thank you.  37 MR. GRANT:  That's 3 —  38 THE REGISTRAR: That will be 358.  Is it going to be an exhibit  39 or marked for ID?  4 0 THE COURT:  Number 3 —  41 THE REGISTRAR: 358.  42 THE COURT:  Thank you.  43 MR. GRANT:  So then the map I would refer to would be Exhibit  44 358 (11).  4 5 THE COURT:  Yes.  46 MR. GRANT:  That's the first map I wish to refer to.  I  47 indicated if my friends -- my friends don't consent to THE COURT  MR. GRANT  THE COURT  4712  it at this stage.  I understand that they wish an  opportunity to examine the expert witness', so it  should be for identification.  Yes, all right.  But it seems an appropriate time to put it in.  It's so marked.  7 THE REGISTRAR: Thank you.  9  10  11 MR.  12  13  14  15  16 THE  17 MR.  18 MR.  19 THE  20  21 THE  22  23  24  25  2 6 MR.  27 THE  28  2 9 MR.  30  31 THE  32 MR.  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  4 0 THE  41 MR.  42  43  44  45 THE  4 6 MR.  47  (EXHIBIT 358 FOR  IDENTIFICATION:  Book of Maps)  GRANT:  While I'm on that topic, My Lord, I would ask that  Exhibit 31, which was initially marked as Exhibit 31  for ID because Mrs. Ryan could not refer to or read  maps it was prepared for the convenience of the court,  be marked as an exhibit proper.  Any objection to that Mr. Plant and Mr. Macaulay?  COURT  PLANT  MACAULAY: No objection, My Lord.  No, My Lord.  COURT:  Yes, all right.  become Exhibit 31,  REGISTRAR: Thank you.  Exhibit 31 for identification will  GRANT:  COURT:  GRANT:  COURT:  GRANT:  COURT  GRANT  COURT  GRANT  Q  (EXHIBIT 31, FORMERLY EXHIBIT 31 FOR IDENTIFICATION:  Map)  :  Now, just to give --  :  Are we going to need this for the next little while,  Exhibit 31?  :  No.  I may refer to it in the evidence of this  witness again, My Lord, but --  :  All right.  Thank you.  :  -- not right now.  I want to refer to it in the  light of some -- of the earlier transcript to correct  what I think was a misunderstanding by my friend Mr.  Plant, but we'll deal with that later.  If you see on the map 11, Exhibit 358 (11), you  can locate Cedarvale on that map, My Lord, and as I've  indicated on this map, north would be approximately to  your -- to the left, and south --  :  Yes.  :  -- and east is on the top, and so within the claim  boundary on that map you see the knob in the centre of  the map going west and that -- you can see Cedarvale  there and you can see the Seven Sisters.  :  Yes.  Now, that should locate you  and Gitwingax further 1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  MR.  THE  THE  MR.  4713  upstream, that should locate you in relation to the  territory.  Now, on this map you can see the western  territory of Tenimgyet, which is at the bottom of that  centre knob, and that would be in the range of the  Tsihl Gwellii territory.  And in fact there's a road  marked on the map going from Terrace to New Aiyansh.  The road -- you're familiar with the road between  Terrace and New Aiyansh?  A   Yes, the new one.  They had two, one older one which  they have abandoned now, and the one -- the public one  which is paved up to top part of Kitsum Kalum Lake.  Q   Yes.  And that road goes through your territory in  Tsihl Gwellii in part?  A   Yes.  Q   Now, yesterday you indicated through one of the adaawk  that people trapped caribou?  A   Yes.  GRANT:   Can you just indicate to the court where -- which  of the territories they did that in and in what parts  of that territory?  Did you say "trapped caribou"?  Snared.  COURT:  WITNESS  GRANT:  Q  A  A  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  Snared caribou?  It's on our Tsihl Gwellii and it's on this map.  I  don't know what exhibit this is.  Exhibit 349 the witness is referring to, which may be  needed in reference to the other larger maps.  Can you  indicate where?  It's written on there.  You recall Ts'imaakhl gan  k'ok.  And you see that on Exhibit 349.  Now, I'd like to ask  you, you described yesterday about berry grounds on  your territory -- well, first of all, I'm sorry, let  me go back to the caribou for a moment.  From the  adaawk, do you know if people trapped caribou on the  Wilson Creek territory?  No.  The Wilson Creek territory did not.  It did not  have any caribou on it.  Okay.  Up the Tsihl Gwellii down in the middle of the  territory to the place we call inside our territory --  I'm speaking of now to a mountain we call Sganisim  habasxwit.  And just -- you're referring to Exhibit 349?  Uh-huh.  Can you indicate just where that is? 1  A  2  3  Q  4  5  A  6  Q  7  8  A  9  Q  10  A  11  Q  12  A  13  Q  14  15  A  16  Q  17  A  18  Q  19  20  21  22  A  23  24  25  26  27  Q  28  29  30  31  A  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  Q  39  40  A  41  Q  42  43  44  A  45  46  47  4714  From here to a mountain down this way which we call  Sganisim habasxwit.  Okay.  I'm going to ask you to just put the number 6  on that mountain?  It would be in this general area.  Okay.  And he's indicating -- so you're referring then  right through the centre?  Yes.  Of the Tsihl Gwellii territory?  Yes.  And this is where the caribou were located?  Yes.  And I believe that you indicated how they were snared  yesterday --  Yes.  -- in your description?  Yes.  Or the other day.  Now, can you tell the court what kinds of -- can  you tell the court what kinds of berries there were on  the Tsihl Gwellii territory?  Yes.  I've indicated and the adaawk of Biis hoon  indicated that salmon berries -- plentiful salmon  berries up to this logging access road I was talking  about, that's the only place where we get salmon  berries up in Tsihl Gwellii area.  Okay.  Now, you explained how you get different kinds  of berries for different purposes.  Do you use -- are  there any berries that you trade with the people from  the coast or with the Nishga?  The -- what we call the -- what is you call  huckleberries, the mountain berries, we in our  language call it maa'ym lax sganist which indicates  that it comes from the mountain or berries that grow  on a burn, part of a burn.  Maa'ym lax an mihl we call  it, that's just what it means, is berries from a burn  and --  Can you -- is there a Gitksan word for the type of  huckleberries you're referring to?  Maa'y.  Maa'y.  Okay. I'd refer the court to map (7) now. Can you  tell His Lordship which of your territories you get  these huckleberries or maa'y from?  The maa'y I'm talking about here, these maa'ym lax an  mihl, they are all the same, but that's -- the  description comes from our Wilson Creek or Xsi gwin  ixst'aat territory. 1  Q  2  A  3  4  Q  5  6  7  8  9  A  10  Q  11  A  12  13  14  15  16  17  Q  18  A  19  20  21  Q  22  23  A  24  25  26  Q  27  28  29  A  30  31  Q  32  A  33  34  35  36  Q  37  38  A  39  40  Q  41  A  42  Q  43  44  A  45  46  47  4715  Yes?  I think I have indicated on one of these photos that  we have them from Win luu mesxw and an si delhl aks.  Just one moment.  I'm going to show the witness the  photograph on map (7).  There's a photograph in the  upper right-hand corner, just to be sure, I'm only  showing you the photograph here.  Is there -- do you  recognize those as the berries you're talking about?  Yes.  Okay.  And I might add that's not only identification we  have.  It has its own unique taste.  It's a hell of a  lot sweeter than the other type of berries and these  are why they are so prized in other villages, like the  coastal people really like them and the Nass because  of their tastiness and sugary.  Well, do these kinds of berries grow on the Nass?  I don't think so, that's why they keep trading for  mesxw, and by all indications we don't have them at  Tsihl Gwellii, so I don't think they have.  You don't have these berries at your Tsihl Gwellii  territory?  We have different ones, like I indicated this morning  we have a different one we call 'mii gan.  It's a  different type of.  And refer to map (8), and once again I just -- when I  say map (8), 358, map (8).  Do you recognize that, the  photograph of those berries?  Yes, they're that real light blue, powdery blue on the  outside, that's the 'mii gan we call it.  And do those grow on any part of your two territories?  Just in the Tsihl Gwellii part of it.  They're really  plentiful there.  I'm talking about today they're  plentifull and even way back in our adaawk they talk  about these berries as plentiful in that area.  And who do you trade or who does your house trade  these berries with?  We're talking about maa'y, the huckleberries from the  Xsi gwin ixst'aat area.  No, the 'mii gan?  'Mii gan?  Yes, they're referred to as Oval Leaf blueberries on  the map?  We don't trade them because they're plentiful for the  other coastal people so they're -- they're usefulness  like I said this morning that they're too sour and too  many pits or seeds in it, so we do not trade with them 4716  1 because of that.  2 Q   So are you saying the ones of the 'mii gan you get  3 from Tsihl Gwellii that's -- they are not edible?  4 A   They are edible, but they're -- nobody wants them  5 because of the taste is -- I mean, they want them, but  6 I mean everybody's got them in their own territory in  7 the Nass area.  They're quite plentiful.  8 Q   Okay.  Well, I'd like you to be -- if you could just  9 clarify for me when you say "everybody's got them",  10 are you referring to the other Gitksan or the Nishga  11 or the Tsimxsan or all three?  12 A  All the three, the Nass, the Tsimxsan, and the coastal  13 people.  14 MR. PLANT: And I'd ask that the witness state the basis of his  15 knowledge that these grow elsewhere.  16 MR. GRANT:  17 Q   Yes.  18 A   I have stated that I was a commercial fisherman, so  19 I've lived along the coast.  Also my wife comes from  20 Kitkatla and we spend a great deal of time in that  21 area too.  22 Q   And so you've spent time at the coast?  23 A   Yes.  24 Q   And you've had these 'mii gan from the coast?  25 A   Yes.  26 Q   And do they taste better than the ones that you've  27 seen at Tsihl Gwellii?  28 A   No, they're the same berry, the 'mii gan is.  29 Q   They're the same berry, but is their taste different  30 from the ones you get at the coast?  31 A   Yeah, there is.  They're a little more bitter, a  32 little more sour.  33 THE COURT:  Just as a matter of history, when were you a  34 commercial fisherman, before you started at the mill?  35 THE WITNESS:   Yes.  36 THE COURT:  Yes.  Thank you.  37 THE WITNESS:   I ended it when I started at the mill.  38 THE COURT:  Yes.  Thank you.  3 9 MR. GRANT:  40 Q   Now, I believe you referred to -- just a moment.  Do  41 you know a berry that's known among the Gitksan as  42 'wii hleexs, a red berry?  43 A   'Wii hleexs is the correct pronunciation.  Yes,  44 they're a red type.  45 MR. GRANT:   Okay.  I refer you -- I'm going to refer you again  46 only to the photograph --  47 THE COURT:  Can I have the spelling? 4717  1 MR. GRANT:  — on that map (10).  Huh?  2 THE COURT:  Can I have the spelling of that red berry?  3 THE TRANSLATOR: 347.  4 MR. GRANT:  5 Q   And I refer to map (10), My Lord, the name is also  6 referred to on map (10).  Is that the berry that  7 you -- is that the --  8 A   Yes.  9 Q   -- what you call the 'wii hleexs.  And again for the  10 record, I'm only showing the witness a photograph of  11 the maps, I'm not showing him the distribution on  12 these maps and he doesn't have the exhibit in front of  13 him.  14 Do you get those from any of your territories?  15 A   In our Tsihl Gwellii part we do.  16 Q   Okay.  And what do you use those for, I mean, in other  17 words, for -- do you just use them personally or do  18 you use them for trade?  19 A  We use them personally.  Yes.  20 Q   Do they grow on your Wilson Creek territory?  21 A   No.  22 Q   Okay.  I'd just like to ask you how -- I believe  23 you -- you've indicated that there's berry grounds on  24 your Wilson Creek territory.  How many berry grounds  25 are there on the Wilson Creek territory?  26 A   There are -- there's -- I mentioned two.  You want me  27 to go through them I will?  28 Q   Okay.  Just tell -- you can say the names of them and  29 how many there are, yes?  30 A   Yes.  I've mentioned two which was visible on the  31 photo.  I've indicated that one was An si delhl aks.  32 MR. GRANT:   Can you give a spelling for that, please?  33 THE TRANSLATOR: An si delhl aks, A-n s-i d-e-l-h-1 a-k-s.  34 MR. GRANT:  35 Q   And you were referring to the second photo on Exhibit  36 355?  37 A   Yes, and then I identified one more, Win luu mesxw.  38 Q   And you're pointing directly under the "w"?  39 A   Yeah, right at the "w".  40 Q   Right at the "w" on —  41 A   Yes.  42 Q   -- the second photo on Exhibit 355?  43 A   Yes.  44 MR. GRANT:   Can you give a spelling for that second —  45 THE TRANSLATOR: Win luu mesxw, W-i-n 1-u-u m-e-s-x-w.  46 THE WITNESS:   And if you stay on the same photograph in the --  47 right in behind that tall tree, that's on the way. 4718  1 MR. GRANT:  2 Q   This is on the left, the tall tree in the mid-ground  3 on the left-hand side?  4 A   Yes, the Win luu gan would be in behind there on the  5 side of the mountain, and just below it another one  6 known to us as Wilp am t'uuts'.  7 Q   That's just on the edge or off the edge?  8 A   Yes, just off the edge of the photo.  9 MR. GRANT:   Can you give spellings for those please?  10 THE TRANSLATOR: Win luu gan, W-i-n 1-u-u g-a-n, and Wilp am  11 t'uuts', W-i-l-p a-m t-'-u-u-t-s-'.  12 MR. GRANT:  13 Q   Are those all of the berry grounds?  14 A   No, there's -- and then it's out of the photo now and  15 then there's the side of the mountain we called Guxws  16 haitixit, that's another berry patch, a camp.  These  17 are all camps of berry patches I'm now speaking about,  18 and then if you go further in behind we call An guxw  19 smex.  20 MR. GRANT:   Can you give the spellings for those two names,  21 please?  22 THE TRANSLATOR: Guxws haitixit, G-u —  23 THE COURT:  I'm sorry?  24 THE TRANSLATOR: G-u-x-w-s h-a-i-t-i-x-i-t, and An guxw smex, A-n  25 g-u-x-w s-m-e-x.  2 6 MR. GRANT:  27 Q   Now, did you see any markings at any of these  28 campsites that had been made -- that your mother  29 showed you that were made when she was small?  30 A   Yeah, they're -- each one of these have markings and  31 they have racks, but the one particular one that my  32 mother showed me was one at -- yeah, this at Win luu  33 gan just beside the Guxws haitixit.  These two areas  34 were where my mother and her grandmother had control  35 or given permission to work these as ladies.  36 That's -- that's the areas which my mother and her  37 mother and grandmother Maggie work these areas, and  38 that's where they were given permission by the  39 Simoogit to manage these two berry patches that were  4 0 where they camped.  41 Q   Were you taught how the berry grounds were managed to  42 ensure continual production of berries?  43 A   Yes.  44 Q   And how was that done?  45 A   These berry patches, I said that the berries only grow  46 where it was burnt, so what they did was every time  47 there was a growth, like every about six to seven 4719  1 years, they would burn these over again so -- so that  2 they maintain the taste because if you leave it too  3 long these berries would begin to lose their taste and  4 sweetness.  5 Q   And who would decide when it was time to burn?  6 A   These were the women that do the actual job and they  7 know the very taste they want and the texture, and as  8 soon as that begin to lose the taste, they would then  9 tell the men that it is time to re-burn the area.  10 Q   Does burning of the berry grounds still go on today?  11 A   No.  12 Q   Why not?  13 A   If you burn something like that you would have to go  14 to jail.  That's one of the problems we're having is  15 the resistance -- the resistance of the provincial  16 that we no longer have to burn such an area like that.  17 Q   You mean the provincial government?  18 A   Yes.  19 Q   Now, did -- were you taught how or did you see  20 yourself whether or not persons other than members of  21 your house were allowed to use the berry grounds --  22 A   Yes, that —  23 Q   -- on Wilson Creek?  24 A   In the Wilson Creek area that -- when we were living  25 here at Xsi gwin ixst'aat with my grandfather and  2 6 grandmother, Sophia Smith was my grandmother and  27 Charlie Smith was my grandfather, when we lived here  28 another lady from Cedarvale, she was quite a high  29 chief lady that -- he goes by the name of Ax goot'.  30 MR. GRANT:   Can you give a spelling for that, please?  31 THE TRANSLATOR: Ax goot, A-x g-o-o-t-'.  32 THE WITNESS:   And that was Mrs. Agnes Sutton.  33 MR. GRANT:  Yes.  34 THE COURT:  Agnes Sutton?  35 THE WITNESS:   Sutton.  36 MR. GRANT:  Agnes Sutton.  37 THE COURT:  Thank you.  38 THE WITNESS:   And early before the berries would — this would  39 be around mid-August, she would come to my grandmother  40 and she would come with a vast amount of prepared --  41 prepared fruits that was available in her own backyard  42 like the black currants, the apples, the cherries, and  43 what you call them rhubarb, and she would come with  44 these things and after she would present it to them,  45 to my grandmother, and they had like a visit.  They'd  46 have this cup -- these cup of tea sessions and then  47 she would say that she wanted to go -- she had 4720  1 intentions of going up to Win luu mesxw to pick these  2 berries and she would then tell us the date that she  3 was going up there.  4 MR. GRANT:  5 Q   This is Win luu mesxw you've shown on Exhibit 355?  6 A   Yes.  7 Q   It's one of the berry grounds above there?  8 A   Yes.  9 Q   Mrs. Sutton is now deceased; is that right?  10 A   That's right.  11 Q   Go on.  12 A  And she was -- I might add that she was strong woman.  13 She would carry these big bent boxes, bigger bent  14 boxes she would carry, and she's a hefty woman,  15 strong.  And to go up to Win luu mesxw there are no  16 water close by so you have to physically carry water  17 up onto this berry patch if you want to go up here and  18 that's how we go up here is through -- we carry water  19 in wine jugs or whatever available, and that was  20 mostly what was used at the time.  And in earlier  21 years ladies would make special straps that were  22 colourful and visible that if they obtained permission  23 from the chief which controls these areas, they would  24 ask permission and did the same thing as Agnes Sutton  25 did, that they would give them some things like their  26 own what they got out of their own territory.  They  27 would exchange with the -- for the permission to go to  28 these berry patches and they would have these strings  29 that —  30 Q   Indicating around the neck.  31 A   -- tied to the baskets and they were called deex  32 iiyasxw.  33 Q   That is what the straps were called?  34 A   That was the name of what they did and that's why the  35 symbolizing or the giving of these fancy coloured  36 straps.  37 MR. GRANT:   Can you give a spelling for that, please?  38 THE TRANSLATOR: Deex iiyasxw, d-e-e-x i-i-y-a-s-x-w.  3 9 MR. GRANT:  40 Q   Just to clarify this, would it be -- who -- would it  41 be the women of, for example, your house who would  42 make the straps or the women of the house that was  43 going up there?  44 A   The women of our house.  45 Q   Okay.  Now, why would they give the straps to these  46 other women who they gave permission to use the  47 territory? 1  A  2  3  THE  COURT  4  5  6  7  THE  WITNE  8  THE  COURT  9  MR.  GRANT  10  Q  11  12  13  A  14  Q  15  A  16  Q  17  A  18  19  Q  20  A  21  22  23  MR.  GRANT  4721  To identification that they are -- they already  obtained permission from the chief.  :  I didn't understand what they did with the rhubarb  and the other fruits and vegetables she got from the  garden.  Were they given as a gift in exchange for the  right to pick the berries?  3S:   That's right.  Yes.  That was the very idea.  :  Yes.  Thank you.  Now, is this idea of giving by the person outside the  house who wants to use your territory, does this still  happen today?  Yes, very much so.  Has it happened to you?  Yes.  Can you give an example of --  Of somebody giving me something to obtain permission  to go on our territory?  Yes.  Yes.  We in our -- we -- if it's the -- through the  men this was dealt through our feast system, that's  what we call Xkyeehl.  :   Do you have that word, Mrs. Stephens?  24 THE TRANSLATOR: 71 on the word list.  2 5 MR. GRANT:  26 Q   You said this happens through the feasts and I asked  27 if there was an example you could give?  28 A   Like I've received shirts, sweaters, pants, and  29 various things in that sort along with some money with  30 it that they accompanied these -- if they put a  31 sweater they put, 10, $20 on top of it, and this is --  32 if I'm trying to use the white eyes to try and explain  33 this it would be like paying a royalty for the use of  34 the land.  35 Q   Okay.  You know Solomon Larsden who holds the name  36 Xamlaxyeltxw?  37 A   Yes.  38 MR. GRANT:   That's one of the plaintiffs' numbers.  39 THE TRANSLATOR: 85.  4 0 MR. GRANT:  41 Q   85.  Has he given you a gift and sought your  42 permission to use your territory?  43 A   Yes.  He hasn't actually used the territory yet, but  44 he has approached me and has given me a really high  45 priced article which is what we use within our  46 ceremonial nax nok thing in the feast hall.  He has  47 given me what we call an am bilan.  That's part of the 4722  1 apron the chiefs use when they in full dress and these  2 would have little bells and the designs on them and  3 the reason he gave me this is he wanted to use one of  4 our fishing sites.  5 MR. GRANT:   Do you have a number for am bilan?  6 THE TRANSLATOR: 384.  7 MR. GRANT:  8 Q   384.  And when did he give you this gift?  9 A   This was just given to me last October.  10 Q   And have you given him permission to use that fishing  11 site?  12 A  We -- when I say "we", the members of the house, will  13 have to get together along with my mother and then we  14 will then decide which of these fishing sites I have  15 named yesterday and which would be best suited to what  16 he wants, whether he wants the spring or the sockeye,  17 then a decision will have to be made in which area he  18 wants to use.  19 Q   Did your grandfathers teach you about any way of  20 identifying men who were going to go hunting on the  21 territory?  22 A   Yes, that —  23 Q   That is, I should say men from outside your house who  24 asked for permission in the way you've just described?  25 A   Yes.  They would -- then the men would come to the  26 chief and if this was done without any member of our  27 house accompanying him, then he would have to have  28 identification that he had gained permission, and this  29 was done by staffs we call k'aat', that's just a large  30 staff they use to go up the mountain.  And these  31 staffs were coloured kind of a light blue colour and  32 they -- the way they had obtained these colour we have  33 a lake in the general area where they're logging now  34 and that lake we call --  35 Q   On —  36 A  At Wilson Creek.  37 Q   — Wilson Creek?  38 A   Yes.  There's a lake there we call in our language  39 T'am si maa'yaast, and maa'yaast is trimming.  40 MR. GRANT:   Could you just give the spelling for the name for  41 the cane and for the name of the lake, please?  42 THE TRANSLATOR: K'aat', k-'-a-a-t- ' .  43 MR. GRANT:  That's the name of the cane?  44 THE TRANSLATOR: Uh-huh.  45 THE WITNESS:   Yes.  46 THE TRANSLATOR: T'am si maa'yaast, T-'-a-m s-i  47 m-a-a-'-y-a-a-s-t. . 4723  1 THE COURT:  That's the name of the lake?  2 THE WITNESS:   Yes.  3 THE COURT:  Thank you.  Did you call it Trimmer Lake?  4 THE WITNESS:   If I'm not mistaken, I think they're called Lime  5 Lake.  I don't know what's the name on the provincial  6 map.  I haven't seen --  7 THE COURT:  I thought you said a moment ago it was trimmer?  8 THE WITNESS:   Oh, yeah, in our language trimming.  Trimming?  That's what it means, maa'yaast.  That's the meaning of the name.  And what was used  from this lake for the canes?  It's the settlement, the mud in it.  If you would  stick the stick into it and leave it for a few days,  it would then change the colour of this cane, the  staff that we used for identification.  To what colour would it change?  It was kind of a light blue, darker blue colour.  Now, you've shown -- on Exhibit 349 you've referred to  a number of trails, and in fact you've described  trails used for the adaawk and trails used for -- that  you're using today for goat hunting, for example?  Yes.  Can you explain to the court are these trails marked,  and I'd like you to distinguish between -- I gather  that some of these trails are above where the trees  are?  Yes, the ones that are in the tree are blazed and we  continually do this every time we go up on these -- in  Xsi gwin ixst'aat is that we re-identify it by doing  it over again on top with that old blaze.  And as you  get out of the tree line and start into the mountains  itself, when you start getting out of the tree line we  then use rocks as markers along -- along the ledges of  the mountain they would pile rocks, and the reason for  this is if it gets -- if you get fogged in, you pile  these rocks in about 20, 30 feet apart and --  How high?  Well, they're only small rocks like that piled, but to  a fog it intensify -- it enlarges the -- what you see  if you pile those it would make it bigger in the fog  so --  So you're indicating about two feet high --  Yeah.  -- from the ground?  One, two, three, yeah, about two feet high, and these  9 MR.  GRA1  10  Q  11  A  12  Q  13  14  A  15  16  17  18  Q  19  A  20  Q  21  22  23  24  A  25  Q  26  27  28  29  A  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  Q  40  A  41  42  43  44  Q  45  A  46  Q  47  A 4724  1 markers are still up on the Tsihl Gwellii territory  2 and I only wish that I could take any of you guys  3 there and show you that they are still there and  4 they're quite visible.  5 Q   And when you see -- when you use these markers, are  6 they piled in a way that you can tell whether you  7 should be going straight or turning?  8 A   Yes.  9 Q   I'm talking about the rocks.  10 A  When we start going into some treacherous dangerous  11 ravines, we then if -- if we are going to go in  12 towards the left, we would pile these indicating the  13 left, they were piled kind of leftwards.  And if you  14 were indicating to go -- it would go to the right,  15 these rocks would be piled to the right, and it so  16 happened when I took my kids up there, like I said  17 when I went a couple years ago, a fog had came and it  18 came down on us but we just kept on going to our other  19 camp because when this happened you're — you're a  20 single file as long as the fog sets in.  You no longer  21 spread out, you then single file, and when you see  22 these markers then whichever marker goes, you then  23 turn that way, and as we were doing this the fog  24 lifted and the children were quite surprised to see  25 that we were right at the edge of a cliff.  26 Q   Is there any kind of spiritual practise which you  27 engage in when you are up on the mountains and caught  28 in a fog?  29 A   Yes, that -- we were taught that in our language to  30 talk to Simoogit Lax ha, and that's just what in our  31 language mean chief in heaven.  32 MR. GRANT:   Can you just give a spelling for that, please?  33 THE TRANSLATOR: Simoogit Lax ha, S-i-m-o-o-g-i-t L-a-x h-a.  34 MR. GRANT:  35 Q   Would that be the Gitksan word for creator or --  36 A   Yes.  It is above all chiefs, like it says it's in  37 heaven, Simoogit Lax ha, and the way to do this is  38 when there -- we get caught in fog, snow, or rain,  39 whatever, and any difficulty arises, when they have  40 lunch they would throw part of what they're eating  41 into the fire as a sacrifice to -- as they're doing  42 this they say K'aan t'aadihl ts'e'elin, mean clear up.  43 Q   And do you still practise this today?  44 A   Oh, yes.  Yes.  45 MR. GRANT:   I'd like to show you a photograph of three poles  46 and ask you if you can identify any of those poles.  47 THE COURT:  These are not in the book of documents? 1 MR.  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10 MR.  11  12 THE  13  14  15  16 THE  17 MR.  18  19  20  21 THE  22 THE  23 THE  24 THE  2 5 MR.  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  4725  GRANT:  Q   They're not in the document book, My Lord, they are on  our list of documents.  A   Yes, these are our three poles that belongs to the  house.  Q   The House of Tenimgyet?  A   Yes.  Q   And Ax tii hiikw?  A   Yes.  GRANT:   Could I ask that that be marked as the next exhibit  please?  REGISTRAR: Exhibit 359.  COURT:  GRANT:  Q  (EXHIBIT 359: Photograph of totem poles)  Where are these?  I was just going to ask you.  Can you tell the court,  have you yourself seen those poles that are standing?  Yes, they're in Kitwanga, the village of Gitwingax.  There are really four poles there aren't there?  Three of them belong to us.  The three largest ones?  Yes, the three visible ones.  A  COURT:  WITNESS:  COURT:  WITNESS:  GRANT:  Q   This is -- these photos -- this photo is from the  provincial museum, B.C. Provincial Museum PN12-13 for  the record.  Now, can you refer the court to any  crests which refer -- on those three poles in the  foreground, which refer to the Biis hoon adaawk that  you gave the other day?  A   The first one.  Q   That's the one on the far right in the foreground?  A  And it appears white.  It's Biis hoon and she's  carrying the two cubs.  Q   Okay.  And that's -- you're indicating the figure on  the bottom that's white on the first -- the pole to  the right of the photograph.  A   Yes.  Q   Are there any other crests?  A  And these two little bears are quite significant,  which I told in our adaawk, these are sii aawehlxwim  smex, and these are quite serious, you have to name  them, and on top of Biis hoon they are not the same  sii aawehlxwim smex.  Q   And what is that?  A   The cubs. 4726  Q   That's the cubs?  A   Yes.  The newborn cubs.  Q   Yes?  A  And above it that big large bear in between there is  that tsiipxwim smex, And above that is a wolf.  Q   Okay.  That second last before the wolf is that the  large grizzly bear?  Is that the --  A   No, we don't put the large grizzly bear on ours.  As  I've indicated, it's outside of our territory so we  don't put it on our pole.  Q   Okay.  When you say it's outside your territory,  you're indicating on 359 where you pointed out the  other day where the events occurred?  A   Yes.  GRANT:   Okay.  COURT:  So there's not a large bear on that first pole?  WITNESS:   It is a large bear, but we call it tsiipxwim  smex, ensnared bear.  GRANT:  Q   Ensnared bear, okay.  Could you put a "T" just  parallel to that pole where that figure is just so  that -- it's hard to see on the photograph.  A   That is this figure?  Q   Yes.  Unfortunately I gave you the copy.  Could you  put it just on the exhibit itself, please?  A  And that's this -- we could mark this this way.  Q   And what is that?  A   That's the tsiipxwim smex.  Q   Okay.  You've put two dashed lines between the "T" to  indicate where that is.  And above that is the wolf?  A   The wolf, yeah, Gibuu, and these are our crests.  Q   Okay.  Does the second pole refer to any of the crests  from the Biis hoon adaawk?  A   The top —  Q   Yes.  A   -- figure is Biis hoon.  GRANT:   Okay.  Maybe you can just put a "B" beside that?  That's on the middle pole?  COURT:  At the top of the middle pole?  GRANT:  Yes, and when I say "middle", I'm only referring to  the first three poles in the foreground.  42 THE COURT:  Yes.  Could I be given a spelling again for Biis  43 hoon, please?  44 THE TRANSLATOR: It's number 484 in the word list.  45 MR. GRANT:  Do you want to give a spelling for that?  46 THE TRANSLATOR: B-i-i-s h-o-o-n.  4 7 THE COURT:  Thank you.  1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  15 MR.  16 THE  17 THE  18  19 MR.  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37 MR.  38  39 THE  4 0 MR.  41 1 MR.  2  3  4  5  6  GRANT  THE COURT  MR. GRANT  THE COURT  4727  Okay.  I'm going to refer back to this photograph,  but I'm going to move into another area so probably it  may be an appropriate time to break.  You want to adjourn now?  Yes.  All right.  Thank you.  Two o'clock, please.  7 THE REGISTRAR: Order in court.  Court will adjourn until two.  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  (PROCEEDINGS ADJOURNED TO 2 p.m.)  I hereby certify the foregoing to  be a true and accurate transcript  of the proceedings herein to the  best of my skill and ability.  Tanita S. French  Official Reporter  (PROCEEDINGS RECONVENED AT 2:00 p.m.) THE  THE COURT  9  10  11  12  13 MR.  14 THE  15  16  17  18 MR.  19  2 0 THE  21  22 MR.  23 THE  24  2 5 MR.  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43 THE  4 4 MR.  45 THE  4 6 MR.  47  4728  REGISTRAR:  Order in court.  Calling Delgamuukw versus Her  Majesty the Queen at bar, my lord.  I have received a copy of a letter written by what I  think are three of the Plaintiffs to the district  manager of the Ministry of Forests and Lands, which  just arrived today, relating to some spraying.  It's a  copy sent to me.  It doesn't call for any response.  I  think I should have the Registrar put it in the file.  I think counsel should know that I have received it.  I don't think it's necessary to say any more about it.  You can show it to counsel, of course.  GRANT:  Can I?  COURT:  It's entirely innocuous insofar as this lawsuit is  concerned.  It's a matter of some importance to the  people I'm sure, but nothing that I think I can  respond to at this point.  GRANT:  Maybe at the break -- I will have an opportunity at  the break to review it.  COURT:  I don't require anything further to be done about  it —  GRANT:  Yes.  COURT:  -- Mr. Grant.  I just think when I receive things of  that kind about the case I have to show it to counsel.  GRANT:  Yes.  Before we proceed, my lord, I just wanted to  make a reference -- my friend -- to Exhibit 31.  The  other day Mr. Plant made mention of the reference to  Exhibit 31, and I would be referring to Volume 19 of  June 15th, 1987, page 1227.  And the reason I'm  referring to this is because of the change on all  copies, except the exhibit itself, of the name An gol  hon.  And I refer the Court to line, for your  reference, to lines 30 through 37.  And it says,  "Q     There's a -- do you know there's an air  field down there, an airstrip?  A     Yes.  Q     Is An loohl hon near that?  A     Yes.  Q     Just for the record..."  COURT  GRANT  COURT  GRANT  And then the question --  Whose evidence is this, Mr. Grant?  This is Olive Ryan's evidence.  Yes.  Thank you.  But, unfortunately, it appears to be my evidence, my  lord. 1  THE  COURT  2  MR.  GRANT  3  THE  COURT  4  MR.  GRANT  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  THE  COURT  19  MR.  GRANT  20  21  22  23  THE  COURT  24  MR.  GRANT  25  THE  COURT  26  27  28  MR.  GRANT  29  THE  COURT  30  MR.  GRANT  31  32  33  34  35  THE  COURT  36  MR.  GRANT  37  38  THE  COURT  39  MR.  PLANT  40  41  THE  COURT  42  MR.  GRANT  43  Q  44  45  46  47  4729  Oh, well, that --  That's why I want to clear this up.  Yes.  And I say question, at line 35,  "Q     Just for the record, my lord, on the exhibit  it says Win golhl hon, and it should be A-n  rather than M-i-n? "  And then her answer.  And that is A-n rather than  M-i-n, so that the correction was my correction, and  this witness has now clarified that to explain that  there's a village of An gol hon and a fishing site  called 'Min golhl hon, and I just wanted to refer you  to that.  And on page 1228, lines 1 and 2, there's a  question, "What was the name of the village," and she  gives the name of the village.  Right.  So there was a suggestion that possibly that was her  evidence about that change of name, and in fact it was  my mistaken correction.  I have an updated numerical list.  Thank you.  This has got many of the additional names.  Should I take this as supplanting or replacing the  the Gitksan word list that I was given in June, in May  and June, or is this additional?  Supplanting I would say.  Yes.  Not -- well, not necessarily replacing it.  I'm not  sure because Miss Stephens and I have been discussing  that.  She wants it to vet that.  But basically this  would certainly replace the list you received a few  days ago.  :  Yes.  All right.  :  Many of the words that Mr. Mathews has referred to,  as you know, she has -- Miss Stephens has added on.  :  Right.  :  I'm sorry to rise at this.  Well, perhaps I can deal  with it during the break, my lord.  :  Very well.  Now, Exhibit 359 I believe.  Is it?  Oh, yes.  The  photograph of the Kitwanga poles.  You were talking  about the second pole, the middle pole of the three  poles of your house, and at the top of that pole  there's a white figure, and above it there is 1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  2 7 MR.  28  2 9 THE  30 THE  31 THE  32 THE  33 MR.  34 THE  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  Do you  4730  something else.  It seems to be horizontal,  know what that is?  A   That's the wolf.  Q   Okay.  Is there a name for this pole, the middle pole,  how you would refer to it?  A   This middle pole, they would call that the pole of the  ensnared bear.  Q   And the ensnared bear, does that refer to the bear in  the Biis hoon Adaawk?  A   No.  Q   But Biis hoon is on the top of the pole?  A   Yes.  Q   Okay.  And the bear in the Biis hoon adaawk is not  shown on any of your poles; is that right?  A   No, just the cubs.  Q   Just the cubs.  Okay.  Now, I'd like to refer you to  is the one in the furthest  a name that you would refer to  Just the cubs.  Okay,  the third pole.  That  background.  Is there  that pole as?  A   Yes, that's the lion pole, the hawaaw'.  Q   Okay.  Now, I'm going to show you another photograph  Do you recognize that photograph?  A   Yes, that's what we call the hawaaw'.  Q   And where was that hawaaw' erected in this second  photograph?  A   This was at Kitwanga.  GRANT:  Okay.  I'd ask that that be marked as the next  exhibit.  COURT:  How is that word spelt, please?  TRANSLATOR:  It's 359 on the word list.  COURT:  Thank you.  And it's at Kitwanga?  WITNESS:  Yes.  GRANT:  That would be?  REGISTRAR:  I'm sorry, that would be 360, my lord.  (EXHIBIT 360  PHOTOGRAPH)  MR.  GRANT:  Q  A  Thank you.  Now, can you tell the Court what you  understood that the hawaaw' was and why you have the  crest of the hawaaw' in your house?  Yes.  This hawaaw' -- on our adaawk this hawaaw'  were -- was terrorizing people from -- from -- coming  up from the coast you might say, that came from this  general direction from up here, from down here moving  along up to the coast, and it went by Bella Coola,  known to us as Git haahl miilik'. 4731  1 MR. GRANT:  Do you have a name or number for that, or spelling I  2 mean?  3 THE TRANSLATOR:  Git haahl miilik', G-i-t, space, h-a-a-h-1,  4 space, m-i-i-1-i-k-'.  5 THE WITNESS:  That's just the name we have for Bella Coola.  6 MR. GRANT:  7 Q   That's a Gitksan name?  8 A   Yes, that's the name we use for it.  9 Q   Go ahead.  10 A  And this hawaaw' was terrorizing people and devouring  11 people, eating them as it went along.  And it came --  12 news of it came up the Skeena that this hawaaw', how  13 it was terrorizing, scaring, and actually devouring  14 some people as it came.  It was soon after that that  15 it arrived, came to one of our territories at Xsi gwin  16 ixst'aat.  This hawaaw' arrived there when the --  17 there was -- one of our great-grandmother ancestor  18 was -- she had left the house early in the morning and  19 was sitting at the edge of the Xsi gwina k'ohlxw  20 Creek, and she was crying remembering ancestors had  21 gone.  When I say gone, that are dead before.  22 MR. GRANT:  Did you get a spelling for that creek?  23 THE TRANSLATOR:  Xsi gwina k'ohlxw.  2 4 MR. GRANT:  Yes.  25 THE TRANSLATOR:  X-s-i, space, g-w-i-n-a, space, k, underlined,  26 '-o-h-1-x-w.  27 THE WITNESS:  That's just Wilson Creek, now known as Wilson  28 Creek today.  2 9 MR. GRANT:  30 Q   Okay.  31 A  And this lady, one from our house, her name was Lax  32 oo'1.  Lax oo'l, eyebrow.  33 THE TRANSLATOR:  Lax oo'l, L-a-x, underlined, space, o-o-'-l.  34 THE WITNESS:  And this lady, like I said, was crying remembering  35 the ancestors, and as she was crying this hawaaw' must  36 have got tense enough to cry that it went.  And the  37 rest of the people at that village of Xsi gwin  38 ixst'aat hear one loud scream, and when they had went  39 out to investigate what had happened, they found this  40 lady, that this hawaaw' had devoured her.  Only her  41 ankles were left on the shore.  And that they seen.  42 They know that something has happened because they see  43 the footprints of this beast, the hawaaw'.  And they  44 quickly gathered the rest of the village and their  45 dogs, and they went out to get this hawaaw', and the  46 dogs picked up the scent quickly.  And some of them  47 jumped in the canoes because they didn't know, but 4732  1 they know that the dogs were going to chase it down,  2 and so it did.  The dogs picked up the scent and  3 chased it down towards the river at that fishing site  4 we call -- where we catch eel there, at that site  5 where this hawaaw' -- the dogs had chased it in at  6 Gwin Gibuus.  And there some of our warriors had --  7 were ready and pierced the body with their arrows and  8 killed it.  And when they had opened it up and dressed  9 it to investigate, they found inside, lodged inside  10 the stomach of this hawaaw' were some pearl earrings,  11 and they knew it was from a high prince.  That's  12 because of the markings on.  They were abalone shells,  13 and it was a sign of a high prince that was well  14 decorated, and that's how they knew that this thing  15 had devoured that.  And stemming from this adaawk they  16 composed a song about this hawaaw', Limx hawaaw', and  17 they used that song also as a paddle song, and we have  18 it in our house today.  19 Q   Now, when this event occurred, who was at -- whose --  20 which house or houses were at Xsi gwin ixst'aat?  21 A   That was our house, the Tenimgyet, the Ax tii hiikw.  22 They were all at that place.  That was our house, so  23 this belongs to us.  When I say us, the whole house.  24 Q   Could I have just have Exhibit 31 for a moment,  25 please?  26 Just with reference to the fishing sites map,  27 Exhibit 31 in these proceedings, you referred to  28 Wilson Creek as where this event or where the woman  2 9 was?  30 A   Yes.  31 Q   Can you indicate in reference to anything else there  32 were the hawaaw' was killed?  33 A   Yes, it was inside that Gwin Gibuus.  34 Q   That's the triangle just downstream from Wilson, well,  35 from Miinhl Am k'ooxst?  36 A   Yeah.  37 Q   It's marked.  You're pointing right at that triangle?  38 A   Yes.  39 Q   Now, you referred to this hawaaw' as a lion.  When you  40 say a lion, does the adaawk tell you what kind of a  41 lion it was?  42 A   Yes, a male lion.  43 Q   Is this like what's commonly referred to as a mountain  44 lion?  45 A   No.  In our own words a mountain lion would be  46 described in our language -- it's duusim gililix.  47 Q   There's a totally different name for a mountain -- 4733  1 A  A totally different animal.  This hawaaw' would  2 indicate that the village of Xsi gwin ixst'aat, that  3 belonged to us for ancients, years, because you would  4 never see this animal there in our territory no more.  5 It doesn't exist now.  6 Q   So this is some kind of ancient animal?  7 A   Yes.  8 THE COURT:  Do you understand it by reason of being called a  9 lion that it should be equated to the kind of African  10 lion we know about now?  11 THE WITNESS:  It would be very similar to that one you're  12 talking about, African lion, and this hawaaw' we  13 describe, yes.  14 THE COURT:  Thank you.  On the same point, on Monday you  15 mentioned monkeys.  16 THE WITNESS:  Yes, that belong to our 'Nii Dii, Mr. Fred  17 Johnson, Lelt.  18 THE COURT:  Should I understand you to be referring there to the  19 tropical monkeys that we see in the zoo today that  20 come from South America or Africa or some parts of  21 equatorial Asia?  22 THE WITNESS:  Yes, there were — when they performed this Nax  23 Nok, they had gunny sacks that looked like the  24 monkeys, yes.  25 THE COURT:  Looked like the kind of monkeys we see now from  26 those regions I've mentioned?  27 THE WITNESS:  Yes.  And does the reference to monkeys as part of the Nax  Nok of Fred Johnson, does that come from his adaawk?  Yes.  Now, were you involved in any events to protect your  fishery at Wilson Creek in the last few years?  Yes, we try to do all we can to protect and preserve  our fishing rights.  Okay.  Fishing sites and rights.  I'd refer you to tab 12.  It's a photograph.  Do you  recognize that photograph?  Yes.  And were you present at the time that that photograph  was taken?  Yes, but I'm not on the photograph.  We had three  separate groups, and this group happened to be on the  railroad track when this picture was taken.  Where is that in relation to Wilson Creek?  That is right at the bridge, railroad bridge at Wilson  2 8 MR.  GRA1  29  Q  30  31  A  32  Q  33  34  A  35  36  Q  37  A  38  Q  39  40  A  41  Q  42  43  A  44  45  46  Q  47  A GRANT:  PLANT:  COURT:  1  2 MR.  3 MR.  4  5  6  7  8  9  10 THE  11 MR.  12 THE  13 MR.  14 THE  15  16  17  18 MR. GRANT  19  2 0 THE  4734  Creek.  I'd ask that that be marked as the next exhibit.  Before that's done, my lord, I repeat the objection  I made earlier in respect of the letter to the  official in the Department of Forests, which was  marked Exhibit 356.  I repeat that objection in  respect of this evidence as I understand it relates to  events that occurred after the issuance of the writ of  summons in this action.  All right.  Mr. Macaulay.  MACAULAY:  Well, I haven't heard the evidence yet.  COURT:  Yes.  MACAULAY:  I will object if I think I ought to.  COURT:  All right.  I'm not sure that Mr. Plant has done no  more than advance the same objection as he did earlier  anticipating that I would nevertheless hear the  evidence in that respect.  He was right as always.  So this can be marked as the next exhibit subject to  that?  I'd like to know a little more about it.  21 MR.  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  COURT:  GRANT:  Q  A  A  Q  A  Okay.  Certainly.  Can you tell the Court when this happened and what  was going on there?  I forgot the year this happened, but this happened --  the ongoing problems we had with the C.N.  And if you  look in the background further over, there is quite an  embankment, and that embankment along the railroad  track is always eroding and falling, and the C.N. had  anticipated and told us that they were going to take  these banks and push it into the riverside, and we  talked to them, and they weren't responding to us.  And when they were --  What would be the effect on your fishery, your fishing  sites, if they did that?  In other words, is that area  of the embankment around any of your fishing sites?  Yes, that's why I was just getting at that.  I'm sorry.  Right back at the post here on this side, the back  here, in the general area right behind these people  across the bridge, it's Miinhl Am k'ooxst.  And  further down where the white spot is, just past that  white spot is another one, Gwin Gibuus.  For the record, the witness is pointing to the post on  the left side of the -- of the photograph.  That would  be the post where what appears to be a sign is, and  he's pointing behind there is Miinhl am k'ooxst, 1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8 THE  9  10 THE  11 THE  12 THE  13  14 THE  15 MR.  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36 THE  37 THE  38  39  40  41  42 THE  43 THE  44  4 5 MR.  46  47  4735  which is on Exhibit 31.  And then you're indicating  with your finger where that embankment is?  Yeah, the white part right here.  That Miinhl Am  k'ooxst would be directly outside of this white --  the outer line, would be directly below that.  And that's where Gwin Gibuus is?  Yes.  Well, this is a demonstration of some kind blocking  the railway, is it?  WITNESS:  Yes, we were.  COURT:  And when?  WITNESS:  I forgot when the year was.  About '81 or '82 I  think it was.  I forgot what year it was.  All right.  A  Q  A  COURT  COURT  GRANT  Q  A  It may have been in the years '84 or '85?  Somewhere in there because we -- somewhere.  But in  any event, we demonstrated and stopped the building of  this bridge temporarily until we were satisfied, and  that C.N. came, and we were satisfied of the safety of  our fishing site, that they had agreed not to bother  this embankment, which they did, that they never  bothered this embankment, that they would ensure us  that they wouldn't disturb the fishing sites here.  Also our concern was the safety of our fishing site in  behind these people here.  That's where our new  smokehouse is, and we are afraid that some of our  children would get run over by the train, so they  ensured us.  And in actual fact, when they put in this  new bridge, they made provisions for us to build a  sidewalk underneath as to access across to the  smokehouse.  Q   And that's the smokehouse in the earlier exhibits, I  believe 351?  A   Yes.  COURT:  All right.  That photograph may be marked.  REGISTRAR:  That will be exhibit number 361, tab 12 of the  black book.  (EXHIBIT 361 - TAB 12, PHOTOGRAPH)  COURT:  All right.  WITNESS:  And we have that agreement with the C.N. now in  place.  GRANT:  Q   What is the agreement?  A   The agreement to what I have said, that our wishes 4736  were in the agreement that they would not disturb  these fishing sites here and supply the safety of what  we were concerned about the passage, the access  passage we wanted to our smokehouse.  Have they done any damage since these events in the  area where the Gwin Gibuus fishing site is?  Have they  dumped into the river or not?  No, they have stopped that idea.  They could see what  we are talking about.  I might add that they have  built a new bridge.  After you had this agreement?  Yes, after the agreement.  They did build a new bridge?  Yes.  Now, you know what I mean when I refer to yew wood?  Uuk?  No, yew wood.  Yew wood.  I'm referring to another area now about trees on your  territory.  Yew wood.  Or yew trees?  Yew trees like -- like a little cedar with different  needles on it.  And in our language we call that Sgan  huuxw dekxw.  And is that -- do they grow on your territory?  They're very scarce, but they do grow on it.  And it's  highly prized and highly used by the coastal people,  like the Kitkatla and Hartley Bay, where my wife has  come from.  They used it as medicine for arthritic  purposes, and it seemed to be working just fine.  That's why they really like the ones that grow in our  area.  They have an abundance in their own territories  down the coastal area, but they would prefer the ones  that grow up in the Skeena.  And they were  demonstrating how they would use this Sgan huuxw  dekxw.  They would cut them up in small pieces and  actually put them into pressure cookers, up to 20  pounds, which would extract everything out of it.  Then they would use what they've had as a drink.  And  they would -- they would like us to supply the berries  to flavour it, the green soap berries.  They mix these  two together as a medicine.  :  Is this what they sometimes call yellow cedar?  45 THE WITNESS:  It's similar, but it's — it's a different kind of  46 cedar.  It's got its own -- like when I was -- how we  47 obtained this was he came with me on our trapping  1  2  3  4  5  Q  6  7  8  A  9  10  11  Q  12  A  13  Q  14  A  15  Q  16  A  17  Q  18  A  19  Q  20  21  A  22  Q  23  A  24  25  26  Q  27  A  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44 THE  COURT 4737  1 ground when we were visiting our traps, and he spotted  2 one of these.  3 MR. GRANT:  I'm instructed it may be what we know as yew, y-e-w,  4 but I'm not certain if that's the case.  I think -- I  5 believe that's the case.  6 You indicated you used soap berries or you trade  7 for soap berries regarding this matter, and I'm  8 referring to map 3 of Exhibit 38 -- I'm sorry.  9 THE REGISTRAR:  358.  10 MR. GRANT:  358.  Thank you.  I will just once again show you the  photograph of -- is that photograph in the upper  right-hand corner, is that what you're referring to?  Yes.  Okay.  Where do you get the soap berries from that you  trade --  We.  -- with the people at the coast?  We get -- the ones we get here is from the Xsi gwin  ixst'aat.  What have you received in trade and exchange for this  wood that you have provided?  Yes, just about a week before I came down here we  received four sacks of clams from this very person  from Kitkatla in recognition or in payment for this  small wood that he obtained from our territory.  Like  I said, they really went for it, and it works for  them.  Did you receive any fish as well?  Halibut, yes.  And that was also for this wood?  Yes, and for the soap berries that went along with it,  the green soap berries.  They prefer the green ones  rather than red ones.  Now, you described the other day and you have  described in the course of your evidence about some of  the exchange that has gone on for the resources from  your territory, and you've just described an example  with the Kitkatla people.  Your house is involved in  trade with the people from Kitimat?  Yes.  And what do you trade for and what do you give them?  Well, we just about missing the season now for  oolichans, but if they come a little late, we'll be in  luck, since we're all down here.  We always went to  visit them at this time of the year to see when the  oolichans would come up.  11  Q  12  13  14  A  15  Q  16  17  A  18  Q  19  A  20  21  Q  22  23  A  24  25  26  27  28  29  Q  30  A  31  Q  32  A  33  34  35  Q  36  37  38  39  40  41  A  42  Q  43  A  44  45  46  47 1  Q  2  3  A  4  5  6  7  8  9  Q  10  11  A  12  13  14  15  16  Q  17  A  18  19  20  21  Q  22  A  23  24  25  26  27  28  Q  29  A  30  Q  31  32  33  A  34  35  36  37  Q  38  39  40  A  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  4738  And what do you give them in exchange for the  oolichans?  Like I said yesterday, the prized spring salmon  fillet, dried fillet.  I might add that now we've  missed the oolichan run up the Nass, which were much  greasier or more.  That first run is highly prized in  the Skeena.  Now we have to settle with the Kitimat  run now.  Now, does your family give fish or exchange fish to  people that pass by Wilson Creek on the trains?  Yes, they regularly stop here even today.  They like  eating these fish, these engineers that come by these  giant rail coal trains.  They would come here earlier.  There is a double tracking where they can meet another  train at Cedarvale.  That's down river?  Yeah, down river.  Rather than sitting there they come  and stop.  Would buy some from Mom, but Mom told them  help yourself, it's there.  So they in turn bring some  stuff on the way back and when they do stop again.  And —  I might add that when -- during -- during the early --  late May Dad has a roasting rack, a barbecue rack  where he roasts these fish, the spring heads, and they  really go for this, these train men.  After tasting  how it tastes, they like it that way.  They just  gobble it down you might say when they stop there.  And that still goes on today?  Yes.  Now, you just referred to the oolichans on the Nass  that you may have missed.  Does your family or does  your house go to the Nass for the oolichan fishery?  Yes, we do, because, like I indicated through our  adaawk, we have relatives from the 'Niis 'Yook' family  that we could go to, and my dad also has relatives up  at the Nass River.  And did your grandparents -- grandfathers tell you  about how they fished for oolichan and how the  oolichan was transported back in the earlier days?  Yes.  My dad here living today would go up with his  grandfather up the -- the grease trail it's known  today and 'cause they had access and they had  relatives in the Nass.  So they would go up here and  fish for these oolichans.  They catch them in dip nets  that they would make.  They would then collect them,  and then they would put them in these big vats to make  grease, and they would leave it there for about four 4739  1 to five days, depending how the weather is, and then  2 they would start to boil this vat until everything had  3 been boiled down to a pulp, and then they would cool  4 it, and all the fine settlements you might say would  5 sink to the bottom, and then the grease would be  6 extracted off the top.  7 Q   And then how would they transport it?  8 A  And then they would, yes, transport it.  When my dad's  9 time, then we had these four-gallon cool oil cans, and  10 they would then pour them into these cans.  11 THE COURT:  Four gallon?  12 THE WITNESS:  Yeah, they were four-gallon square cans with a  13 round hole on top.  I've seen them.  And they would  14 put these into these four-gallon cans.  They would  15 have a number of them.  And they would do what we call  16 sges.  That's taking one past the other like a relay  17 or passing.  You put one back here and go by the other  18 and then so on.  And they would travel this way until  19 they would hear the grease starting to melt, and you  20 could hear it slushing back and forth, and then that  21 means that's the time to stop and put that down and go  22 back to the other.  And they would put these grease --  23 if there was snow on the ground, they would put it in  24 there to cool it down again.  If they didn't do this,  25 then the -- the oolichan grease would spoil.  And you  26 know how butter is when sunlight hits it, it doesn't  27 taste as good any more, and that's why they had to  28 keep going in this rotation.  2 9 MR. GRANT:  30 Q   Did your grandfathers tell you what they used before  31 they had four-gallon cans?  32 A   Yes, bent boxes, bent boxes which they would cork.  33 They would cork them with these dried fish eggs I  34 mentioned before that they'd eat it when that one --  35 that this man ate with his grandmother.  That's the  36 same thing.  They would cork them with these dried  37 fish eggs so it would not leak through.  38 THE COURT:  Am I right in believing that the Nass flows into the  39 Portland Canal at Stewart?  40 MR. GRANT:  No.  The Nass would be, if you're looking at map  41 3 --  42 THE COURT:  Yes, that's the one that's open.  43 MR. GRANT:  Yes.  The Nass, my lord, you can see where that --  44 sort of the middle blue line of Comadontoma (ph) is,  45 that valley that's going up there.  It's not the --  46 it's Stewart, but it's below there.  47 THE COURT:  South of Stewart. 1  MR.  GRANT  2  3  4  THE  COURT  5  6  MR.  GRANT  7  8  9  10  11  THE  COURT  12  MR.  GRANT  13  14  THE  COURT  15  MR.  GRANT  16  THE  COURT  17  18  MR.  GRANT  19  20  THE  COURT  21  22  23  MR.  GRANT  24  THE  COURT  25  MR.  GRANT  26  Q  27  28  29  30  A  31  32  THE  COURT  33  34  MR.  GRANT  35  THE  COURT  36  37  MR.  GRANT  38  THE  COURT  39  MR.  GRANT  40  Q  41  42  43  44  A  45  46  Q  47  4740  Yes.  South, which would be to the right on this  map.  And you can see Nass River there, and there's a  reference to New Aiyansh and Canyon City.  Yes.  Well, I knew New Aiyansh.  Does the Nass run  through New Aiyansh?  Yes, it runs by it and then Canyon City and then  Greenville, and it in fact does come out to the  Portland Canal, but it comes out upstream from  Kincolith.  It's actually highlighted on this  particular map because of the --  On map 3?  Yes, on map 3.  -- because of this grey -- the  middle grey colour.  Yes.  Oh, that's the Nass River.  Yes, and you can see it going up.  Oh, all right.  So it's not far from the territory  claimed by the house of this clan.  No.  In fact, this territory is probably one of the  closest to the Nass.  Yes.  All right.  Well, by this map it would only be  10 miles or so from the territory of this witness to  the Nass River in a direct line.  From the edge of his territory there.  Yes.  Could you -- you know the boundary marker that you  pointed to yesterday, the tree, do you know about how  far it is if you continued, and there's a road going  past there, to the Nass?  No, I wouldn't.  I just know our boundary there,  that's all.  And what happened --  What is the mileage in Terrace to New Aiyansh, about  5 0 mi1e s ?  Terrace?  I believe it is.  That's what it is by the looks of it.  All right.  Thank you.  In that range.  It's about 60.  60.  All right.  I'd like to move to another area of your evidence.  I  did mention that marker, and I just wanted to ask you,  you showed the marker of your boundary.  Before that  tree was there, what would have been the marker?  They would -- like I was told that they would pile  rocks to indicate the boundary.  So the boundary wasn't changed at the time that tree  grew there? 4741  1 A   No.  2 Q   It was just a new type of marker?  3 A   Yes.  4 Q   I'd like to ask you a few questions about -- just a  5 moment -- about the trapline registration system.  And  6 you're aware, are you, about a registered trapline  7 system that the Provincial Government had implemented  8 several years ago?  9 A   Yes, we've been told about these registrations, yes.  10 Q   Okay.  Now, were you told by your grandfathers about  11 the trapline registration?  12 A   Yes.  13 Q   And you've already indicated about -- with reference  14 to tab 14, the first document, Exhibit 350, that your  15 grandfather, Charles Smith, had -- you recall  16 referring to this document here?  17 A   Um hum.  18 Q   That your grandfather, Charles Smith, applied for a  19 registration of trapline.  Now, did your grandfather,  20 Charles Smith, or Geoffrey Morgan talk to you about --  21 well, let's say Charles Smith.  Did he tell you why he  22 was applying, why he did that?  23 A  Well, yes.  At the time of this -- what I'm told was  24 that they were told and ordered -- not ordered, but  25 told if they registered these particular trapline, and  26 it's called trapline, so I'll use the term trapline on  27 these things here.  I call them things because that's  28 what I think of them.  And they were told that if they  29 registered these particular areas that were quite dear  30 to them, that that was a sign of approval by the  31 governments that no one could -- it was if they  32 referred it back to the law that nobody could get on  33 there or trespass if they had registered these  34 traplines with their names, and that appears that  35 ain't true.  36 Q   Did your grandfather indicate to you what he  37 understood would happen if he did not register?  38 A   Yes.  They were told that if they not register it  39 somebody would take over and register it and that they  40 would lose this particular area.  And like I say, it  41 was so dear to them that they registered these  42 traplines, and they call traplines.  43 MR. GRANT:  I'd like to refer you to tab number 9 of your  44 document book, and that consists of two documents.  45 They're in plastic, and they're facing pages, my lord.  46 Now, I'd like to refer you to the map or that map  47 on the back, which has a reference to Lava Lake, and 1  2  3  4  5  6  THE  COURT  7  8  MR.  GRANT  9  THE  COURT  10  MR.  GRANT  11  THE  COURT  12  MR.  GRANT  13  MR.  PLANT  14  15  16  17  18  MR.  GRANT  19  Q  20  21  22  23  A  24  25  26  27  28  Q  29  A  30  31  32  Q  33  34  35  A  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  Q  43  44  A  45  Q  46  47  A  4742  then it says on it, "Trapline Olander, Oscar Terrace,  B.C."  Do you recognize and consider that those dark  lines, not the straighter square lines but the other  dark lines, one along Meadow Creek, the other along  Cedar River -- on the assumption that those are --  I'm sorry, Mr. Grant, is there another document  behind this typewritten letter at tab 9?  If you turn it over.  Oh, I see.  Yes.  All right.  Thank you.  Yes, that is a separate document.  It was just --  All right.  But they were attached.  And perhaps -- well, I should just say I'm a little  nervous about my friend's assumption, although I don't  really know what it is yet.  I'm fearful of my friend  making an assumption which may suggest an answer that  ought not to be suggested.  I don't want to suggest any answers to this witness.  I concur with my friend's concerns.  Can you relate that map to either of your  territories?  Yes, there were -- this particular one would run along  our line in places.  This Olander was first met on our  territory by my grandfather, Charles Smith, and in  later years ran into my other three grandfathers,  which I have mentioned.  Geoffrey Wallace and Jack Morgan?  Yes.  And they had run into him up -- further up the  Tsihl Gwellii territory up at the place I mentioned we  called 'Yagaa Xaalo'obit.  Just a moment here.  I'm going to give you the other  map on Exhibit 349.  That's the creek that's labelled  'Yagaa Xaalo'obit?  That's where they first encountered him.  And they --  and they had chased him off, and he says don't --  don't be scared.  He said I'm not touching anything,  I'm not trapping, I'm not hunting.  I'm only looking  for rocks he said.  He didn't say anything about what  kind of rocks.  He just told them that they were  looking for rocks.  And this is what he told which of either Charles Smith  or the others?  Charles Smith first.  Okay.  Now, can you relate or give the Court some idea  of where that map is in relation to Exhibit 349?  It would suggest on the Olander one that he had passed 4743  1 our line here at Sand Lake.  2 Q   He's pointing to Sand Lake on the tab 9 map.  3 A   He went beyond our territory, and he would have gone  4 just about halfway into the ones at the head lake  5 here.  6 Q   Sorry, when you say the head lake, you're meaning?  7 A  At Kitsum Kalum Lake.  8 Q   I see.  You're pointing to the bottom of the --  9 A   Yes.  So he would have followed our trails.  10 Q   Okay.  Now, I'll just show you the obverse of tab 9.  11 Have you seen this letter before?  12 A   Yes, I have seen this letter.  13 Q   Okay.  And was that when I showed that letter to  14 you --  15 A   Um hum.  16 Q   -- after receiving it?  17 A   Yes.  18 MR. GRANT:  I would ask that the map be marked as the next  19 exhibit.  And the only reason, my lord, that I  20 incorporated the letter was so that the map -- there's  21 some reference as to what the map is, so it would be  22 appropriate, in my view, that both documents would be  23 marked as an exhibit, but if my friends are concerned  24 about the letter, I have no problem with not putting  25 it in.  2 6 THE COURT:  Mr. Plant?  27 MR. PLANT:  Well, perhaps I could say this, my lord, at the  28 moment I have no way of knowing if the sketch which is  29 on the back is the sketch that is referred to in the  30 letter on the front.  31 THE COURT:  Is it a separate piece of paper?  I can't tell.  32 MR. GRANT:  Yes, it is.  It's a separate piece of paper, and it  33 was delivered as part of this document 10/3/79, and  34 possibly Mr. Mackenzie or Mr. Macaulay would be the  35 person best able to tell us, but I presumed that as it  36 was attached when I received it that it was the  37 document.  38 MR. PLANT:  I'm not —  3 9 MR. MACAULAY:  I don't remember.  40 MR. PLANT:  -- going to object to either of these documents  41 being marked for the reason that, as I understand it,  42 they both come from a file which has its origins in,  43 in this case I think, the Public Archives of British  44 Columbia.  45 THE COURT:  Yes.  All right.  Well then, the letter, March 10th,  46 1933, will be the next exhibit.  47 THE REGISTRAR:  That will be Exhibit 362. 1  MR.  GRANT  2  THE  COURT  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  MR.  GRANT  10  Q  11  12  A  13  14  15  Q  16  A  17  18  19  Q  20  21  A  22  Q  23  A  24  25  Q  26  27  A  28  29  30  Q  31  32  A  33  34  Q  35  A  36  Q  37  38  A  39  Q  40  A  41  Q  42  A  43  THE  COURT  44  THE  WITNE  45  MR.  GRANT  46  Q  47  A  4744  :  Maybe they could be the same number and A and B.  :  The letter will be 362(A), and the map will be  362(B).  (EXHIBIT 362(A)  (EXHIBIT 362(B)  LETTER)  MAP)  Did your grandfather, Charles Smith, trap on either of  the territories?  Yes.  At this time, when the registrations were put  in, there was extensive trapping being done on the  Tsihl Gwellii territory.  By who?  By both Charles Smith, by Wallace, by Geoffrey, by  Jack.  As I have indicated, in the matter of 1928  Richard Morgan was born on the territory.  And did your grandfather, Charles Smith, ever tell you  that Oscar Olander trapped on that territory --  Like --  -- to his knowledge?  No.  Like I have indicated, that he was not trapping  at the time they were there.  Do you know approximately when your grandfather,  Charles Smith, stopped trapping?  As far as my father's recollection, it was a year  before him and my mother got married, so it would  indicate that it would be 1935, in that area.  Okay.  Now, is anyone trapping out on Tsihl Gwellii  territory today?  Richard Morgan and his brothers would have gone here,  yes .  Now --  So amnigwootxw, as I explained.  They belong -- I believe you've already indicated in  evidence they belong to another house?  Yes.  But their father --  Wallace.  -- Wallace was a chief in your house?  Yes.  :  Is there father alive or dead?  3S:  He's dead now.  That was Wallace, one of your three grandfathers?  Yes. 1 MR. GRANT  2 THE COURT  MR. GRANT  THE COURT  4745  Yes.  Yes.  All right.  It may be an appropriate time for the break.  Yes.  All right.  Thank you.  THE REGISTRAR:  Order in court.  Court will recess.  (PROCEEDINGS ADJOURNED AT 3:00 p.m.)  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  I hereby certify the foregoing to be  a true and accurate transcript of the  proceedings herein to the best of my  skill and ability.  Leanna Smith  Official Reporter  United Reporting Service Ltd.  (PROCEEDINGS RESUMED PURSUANT TO ADJOURNMENT) 4746  1  2 THE REGISTRAR: Order in court.  Ready to proceed, My Lord.  3 THE COURT:  Grant.  4 MR. GRANT:  5 Q   Thank you, My Lord.  You indicated before the break  6 that Richard Morgan and the others, they were -- Ray  7 Morgan I believe you mentioned, had the right to use  8 your territory by amnigwootxw.  Why do the Gitksan let  9 persons related, that is through their father's side,  10 use their territories?  11 A   This is a -- one of our great laws that we care for  12 each others, as I have indicated in our own language,  13 to do that, to try and expand on it, to try and drive  14 it across that it's caring, it's a social group we  15 have.  Kinship is -- is essential for the very  16 survival of our ancestors to live as they've lived and  17 continue this into today's world and we do these  18 things as they have done through amnigwootxw and do  19 the helping and sharing of your territory.  20 Q   What house are they from?  21 A   The -- Ray and Richard you might say they come from  22 the House of Guxsan.  23 Q   That Guxsan is a house in Kitsegukla?  24 A   Yes.  25 Q   The fireweed clan?  26 A   Yes.  27 Q   And your mother is related through her father to  28 Guxsan?  29 A   Yes.  Ts'aa'uulst, wilksi witxw, and if you see my --  30 and that is my grandfather and my mother, so there is  31 a linkage there between the two houses.  32 Q   Guxsan raised a pole recently?  33 A   Yes.  34 Q   And that was in Kitsegukla?  35 A   Yes.  36 Q   And you attended that?  37 A   Yes, I did.  Yes.  38 Q   And at the -- and there was a pole raising feast after  39 the pole raising?  40 A   Yes.  41 Q   And at that pole raising feast was there any  42 recognition of this relationship through giving of  43 rights to you or to your mother?  44 A   Yes.  I might add that the community hall in  45 Kitsegukla is too small so they used the community  46 centre in Kitwanga, but the actual running of the  47 feast it was run as Gitksan -- Guxsan would have run 4747  1 it on Kitsegukla.  And at that feast he stood up and  2 gave my mother permission to use one of their fishing  3 sites, Guxsan's fishing rights as through amnigwootxw,  4 and he also mentioned my name that I could help my  5 mother through amniye'etxw.  We call grandfather of  6 mine, and this is the part of the sharing of your  7 territory, you would call it jurisdictional privilege,  8 to be given as this sharing part of the wealth which  9 comes out of one's territory.  10 Q   Could you give that name for grandfather's side?  11 A  Amniye'etxw.  12 THE TRANSLATOR: Amniye'etxw, A-m-n-i-y-e-'-e-t-x-w.  13 THE COURT:  I'm sorry, e-t —  14 THE TRANSLATOR: — x-w.  15 THE COURT:  Thank you.  I believe that's a new -- did -- you've referred to  Henry Wilson?  Yes.  And what house is Henry Wilson in?  He's from the House of Xsgogimlaxha.  :  That's —  23 THE TRANSLATOR: 87.  24 MR. GRANT:  37?  25 THE TRANSLATOR: 87 on the plaintiffs' list.  16 MR.  GRANT  17  Q  18  19  A  20  Q  21  A  22 MR.  GRANT  2 6 MR. GRANT  2 7 THE COURT  2 8 MR. GRANT  2 9 THE COURT  3 0 MR. GRANT  31 THE COURT  87 on the plaintiffs' list.  I'm sorry, 87 or 37?  87.  Thank you.  Now, have you given Henry Wilson --  I'm sorry, is Henry Wilson Xsgogimlaxha or is he  32 from the House of Xsgogimlaxha?  33 THE WITNESS:   From the House of Xsgogimlaxha.  He goes by the  34 name Niis Noohl.  35 MR. GRANT:  36 Q   Say that again?  37 A   Niis Noohl.  38 MR. GRANT:  Could you give that name, please?  39 THE TRANSLATOR: Niis Noohl, N-i-i-s N-o-o-h-1.  4 0 THE COURT:  Thank you.  41 MR. GRANT:  42 Q   And Xsgogimlaxha's house is the House of Kitsegukla?  43 A   Yes.  44 Q   And it's of the fireweed clan?  45 A   Yes.  46 Q   And does Henry Wilson use any of your territory?  47 A   Yes.  I have mentioned that we have given him 4748  1 permission to use one of our fishing site we call Gwin  2 K'alp.  3 Q   Gwin K'alp?  4 A   Gwin K'alp.  5 MR. GRANT:  Do you have that?  6 THE TRANSLATOR: Gwin K'alp, G-w-i-n K-'-a-l-p.  7 THE COURT:  — a-l-p?  8 THE TRANSLATOR: Yes.  9 MR. GRANT:  10 Q   And that is the fishing site directly across from Xsi  11 gwin ixst'aat?  12 A   Yes, it was, and this site, I may add, through  13 amnigwootxw that he's used it now for the last ten or  14 more years now he's used this, but he ever dies it  15 reverts back to us.  It's not hereditary where his  16 relatives can take it, but that permission ends there.  17 Q   Now, the other day you referred to your wife and that  18 she, I believe you said, will be adopted?  19 A   Yes, and that's no fault of Gwis gyen's why she's not  2 0 adopted as yet.  Guxsan, Gwis gyen and Hax bagwootxw  21 have put up two or three feasts, big feasts so far,  22 but it was just a coincident why my wife hasn't  23 received the name of the house yet.  The reason being  24 every time that Stanley, Gwis gyen, his house have put  25 up a feast, my wife's relative on two of these  26 occasions died at Hartley Bay and she had to go and to  27 attend these and perform her duties to the -- that's  28 where she originated from I might add.  Her mother  29 came from Hartley Bay and married into Kitkatla,  30 that's why they're known at Kitkatla.  31 Q   And your children are also -- if she hadn't been away,  32 your children also would already have been adopted?  33 A   Yes.  I might add that one of my wife's sister Diane  34 just came there recently and has already been adopted  35 as our law and as our -- what I've indicated that we  36 do not embarrass anybody by the door by adopting one  37 from outside of your village, outside of the Gitksan.  38 Q   Now, if your wife was from Kitsum Kalum instead of  39 from Kitkatla, Kitsum Kalum is the -- those people are  40 the Tsimxsan people that live closest to you as a  41 western Gitksan; is that right?  42 A   Yes.  43 Q   If she was from Kitsum Kalum would she have to be  44 adopted to have a seat in the feast hall in Gitwingax?  45 A   Yes.  46 Q   If she was a Nishga would she have to be adopted for a  47 seat in the feast hall? 1  A  2  Q  3  4  A  5  Q  6  7  A  8  Q  9  0  A  1  Q  4749  Yes.  If she was a Haisla, the Haislas are from Kitimat; is  that right?  Yes.  Would she have to have a seat -- would she have to be  adopted to have a seat in the feast hall at Gitwingax?  Yes.  And if she was a Wet'suwet'en, would she have to be  adopted to have a seat in the feast hall?  Yes.  And if she was from Kitwancool would she have to be  12 adopted to have a seat in your feast hall?  13 A   No, these three westernmost western part of our  14 territory, the western part of the Skeena, accept each  15 others as one.  As a matter of fact, they call  16 themselves the Tri Village because there are  17 interrelation between the three villages that are --  18 when I say three villages, that includes Kitwancool,  19 Gitwingax and Kitsegukla.  20 Q   And they're all Gitksan villages?  21 A   They're all Gitksan villages.  22 Q   Now, if your wife was a Gitksan from Kispiox would she  23 have to be adopted to have a seat in the feast hall in  24 Gitwingax?  25 A   Not necessarily.  Same thing applies because of our --  26 of our close relationship, a group, these two bands  27 again, but if they did that then they would have a  28 seat in each village, which have occurred and is  29 acceptable.  30 Q   Do you know of any examples of persons that have seats  31 in both your village and say Kispiox with different  32 names?  33 A   Yes.  There's been one who was born and I think it was  34 raised in Kitwanga, which is Alvin Weget follows the  35 same line, which he holds the name and a seat in  36 Gitwingax and also holds a seat in Kispiox, and the  37 name in Gitwingax, I think his name is K'aat'im  38 Haayetsxw, and in the Kispiox feast hall and in the  39 village I think he's known as Denii.  40 MR. GRANT:  Do you have a spelling for those two names, please?  41 THE TRANSLATOR: K'aat'im Haayetsxw, K-'-a-a-t-'-i-m  42 H-a-a-y-e-t-s-x-w. Denii, D-e-n-i-i.  43 THE WITNESS:   I might add that's my speller's dad which I'm  44 talking about.  45 MR. PLANT: So I have it correctly noted, is Denii the name held  46 in Kispiox?  47 THE WITNESS:   Yes. 4750  1 THE COURT:  And the other one?  2 THE WITNESS:   K'aat'im Haayetsxw.  3 THE COURT:  Where's that name from?  4 THE WITNESS:   Gitwingax.  5 THE COURT:  Gitwingax?  6 THE WITNESS:   Yes.  7 MR. GRANT:  Now, I'd like to refer to the genealogy once again,  8 that's I believe at Tab 1.  9 THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit 246.  10 MR. GRANT:  11 Q   Yes.  Thank you.  And I'd like you to use the  12 genealogy and I'll go through it with you to indicate  13 to the court the relation -- the different houses with  14 whom your house has a close relationship that you have  15 referred to as the wilksi witxw or the wilxsi leks in  16 plural, and let me start with yourself and page 4 of  17 that document, of the genealogy.  Your mother is  18 married to Art Matthew Senior, who's from the House of  19 Luuxoon; is that right?  20 A   Yes.  21 Q   And that's who you've referred to as your wilksi  22 witxw?  23 A   Yes.  24 Q   And Henry Tait is married to Norma Sinclair.  Henry  25 holds the name Ax tii hiikw?  26 A   Yes.  27 Q   And his wife is from which house?  28 A   Djogaslee in Gitanmaaxs.  29 Q   And who holds the name Djogaslee?  30 A   That is Norma's uncle.  31 Q   Okay.  Do you know who that person is?  32 A  Wilson.  Mr. —  33 Q   Walter Wilson?  34 A  Walter Wilson.  Yes.  35 Q   My friend indicated he didn't object to me leading.  36 And that is -- Djogaslee is -- that is of what  37 clan?  38 A   Ganeda.  39 THE COURT:  I'm sorry?  4 0 MR. GRANT:  41 Q   Ganeda.  That is the frog clan?  42 A   Yes.  They call it Lax See'l in that area.  43 Q   Now, do you meet and discuss events that are going on  44 within the Gitksan territories with Djogaslee?  45 A   Yes.  He's very interested of what's happening to his  4 6 family that's living in Gitwingax, to Norma.  At times  47 when we have meetings or special occasion like 1  2  3  4  Q  5  6  A  7  Q  8  A  9  Q  10  A  11  Q  12  A  13  Q  14  A  15  MR.  GRANT  16  THE  TRANS  17  MR.  GRANT  18  THE  TRANS  19  MR.  GRANT  20  Q  21  22  A  23  24  25  26  Q  27  28  29  30  A  31  Q  32  A  33  Q  34  35  A  36  MR.  GRANT  37  THE  COURT  38  39  MR.  GRANT  40  THE  COURT  41  MR.  GRANT  42  THE  COURT  43  MR.  GRANT  44  THE  COURT  45  MR.  GRANT  46  47  4751  weddings, and he comes to me and asks how his niece  Norma's making out, so he's quite interested of what  they're doing.  Now, you have on the genealogy Vina Tait.  That is  Henry's sister?  Yes.  And she is married to George Turner?  Yes.  And what name does he hold?  George Turner holds the name Yal.  And that's a fireweed house?  Yes.  Is that right?  Yes.  :   Can you give a number for Yal?  LATOR: Eight on the plaintiffs' list.  :  And Djogaslee?  LATOR: Djogaslee is number 5.  Thank you.  And do you meet and discuss issues  relating to the territory with Yal?  Yes.  As I've indicated, when we had a meeting when we  were discussing the name of Ax tii hiikw, who was  going to take it, he was in attendance at the time, so  he's very interested and -- in us.  Now, if we move up, and by that I'm going to say we  move back, you've already indicated that your  grandfather, your mother's father, was Charlie Mark  and he was from the House of Guxsan?  He was Guxsan.  He was Guxsan himself?  Yes.  And your uncle Charlie Derrick married a woman named  Harriet from the same House of Guxsan?  Yes.  :   And your other uncle --  :  I'm sorry, I haven't found Charlie Mark.  I don't  see --  Oh, Charlie Mark is on page 3.  Yes.  Just going along.  You say he was married to who?  Charlie Mark was married to Mary Mark.  Yes?  Who was the mother of Kathleen Matthews, the  witness' mother.  You have to combine that with page  4. 1 THE  COURT  2  3 MR.  GRANT  4  Q  5  6  7  8  9  A  10  Q  11  A  12  13  Q  14  15  A  16  Q  17  A  18  19  Q  20  21  A  22  Q  23  A  24  Q  25  26  A  27  Q  28  A  29  Q  30  A  31  Q  32  A  33  Q  34  35  36  37  A  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  :  Yes.  Yes, I have it.  before, haven't we?  4752  Yes, we've been over this  Yes.  I'm just going to relationships not to -- I'm  going to the father's side or the houses to which this  witness is related.  Now, Sam Derrick, another uncle, was married to  Nelly Wilson and what house was she from?  Sam Derrick you're talking about?  Yes.  Yes.  They were noted as coming from the House of Kliiyem  lax ha.  Okay.  I'm referring you here to Sam Derrick, who  appears to be deceased -- just a moment.  Oh, I'm talking about --  Okay.  -- the living Sam Derrick.  There's another Sam  Derrick alive.  The Sam Derrick who is deceased was married to Nelly  Wilson that's on page 3?  Yeah.  Now, do you know what house she belonged to?  Not really.  This is getting further back than.  Okay.  Fine.  Now, you referred to Sam Derrick who's  alive?  Yes.  And is he related to you or to Henry?  Yes.  He's my uncle, other uncle.  And does he belong to another house?  Yes.  Which house is that?  Kliiyem lax ha.  Okay.  And is your house related -- is — do you  maintain close connections with Kliiyem lax ha's house  regarding the territory and decisions regarding the  territory?  Decisions regarding territory, yes, but the principle  here applies to what I've said about these two,  Kispiox and the Gitwingax, the principle of what  happened to Alvin Weget have been split.  When I say  "split", that doesn't mean he's apart, but when he  comes to Gitwingax he is Gitwingax, when he goes to  Kispiox he's Kispiox, and the same thing because of  the closeness to relatives and the Tri that we call  these people, my people of our house is so closely  related that when you go to another house we say the  kinship there is so great and all these what you call 4753  1 medicine(ph) persons, medicine here have actually  2 grown up in Gitwingax, and so I -- and Henry Tait, Ax  3 tii hiikw, put them in our house because they belong  4 there through this tremendous kinship I'm talking  5 about, and there are members of our house in that way.  6 Q   In referring to your genealogy and in what you've just  7 been describing, there is one house or house group we  8 haven't talked about and this is the House of Lelt?  9 A   Yes.  10 Q   Now, this is a Ganeda of the House of Gitwingax?  11 A   Yes.  12 Q   And you've described -- in the course of your evidence  13 you've referred to them as your 'Nii Dii?  14 A   Yes.  15 Q   Now -- and as I understand your evidence, and just to  16 bring you up to the point where I understand you've  17 given evidence, you say they sit at the head table  18 when you host a feast?  19 A   Yes.  20 Q   Now, can you explain to the court the importance of  21 the 'Nii Dii to you, to your house, and the importance  22 of Lelt's house to your house in decision-making?  23 A   Yes.  Our 'Nii Dii, like I said, the people that sit  24 that's honour guests is at head tables and it's far  25 more reaching than that.  It reaches out further than  26 that -- I'm not trying to grab you, but the role of a  27 'Nii Dii is far more -- has more impact than that just  28 sitting there at the end of the table.  Like for  29 instance, that Wii hlengwax came to us regarding the  30 logging that was taking place on the Seven Sisters to  31 discuss what had happened and to ask us to witness  32 that he was the owner or the -- of that place, I'm  33 talking about up at that Seven Sisters, and we had to,  34 as that's our 'Nii Dii, verify what he was saying was  35 true.  It's to validate, you might say, what -- what  36 he has said is true or if it was in the role of a  37 feast hall, we validate that his running of the feast  38 is right.  39 MR. GRANT:   Wii hlengwax is -- what number is that by the way?  40 THE TRANSLATOR: Seventy-six on the plaintiffs' list.  41 MR. GRANT:  42 Q   Seventy-six on the plaintiffs' list.  He's a plaintiff  43 in this action?  44 A   Yes.  45 Q   And he is a frog chief -- the head of the house of the  46 frog clan?  47 A   Yes, in Gitwingax. 1  Q  2  3  A  4  Q  5  A  6  MR.  GRANT  7  THE  COURT  8  MR.  GRANT  9  Q  10  A  11  12  13  14  15  16  Q  17  18  A  19  Q  20  21  A  22  23  24  Q  25  26  A  27  Q  28  29  A  30  Q  31  32  A  33  Q  34  35  A  36  Q  37  38  A  39  Q  40  A  41  42  43  Q  44  A  45  THE  COURT  46  THE  TRANS  47  MR.  GRANT  4754  Of Gitwingax.  So he is part of your 'Nii Dii as well,  is that what you're saying?  Yes.  And similarily you are his 'Nii Dii?  Yes.  Okay.  What again please is the definition of 'Nii Dii?  Can you define it for the court?  'Nii Dii is you might say the person that validates  what you are saying, and he would be then the person  that you would go for help or through whatever  problems you might have, and without a 'Nii Dii  present then everything is for naught you might say,  everything is left as is.  Well, there's been extensive evidence of other houses,  other clans witnessed at the feast; is that right?  Yes.  How do you distinguish the 'Nii Dii from all those  other houses there or other clans that are there?  How you distinguish them is they are from your own  home town, your own home village, and every village  has their own 'Nii Dii in the same manner.  Does 'Nii Dii, that word, can you translate that word  literally?  Is there a literal meaning?  'Nii Dii, the person sitting across from you.  You've shown by the seating chart, Exhibit 348, that  you sit with the eagles, the Lax Skiik?  Yes.  Are both you and the Lax Skiik the 'Nii Dii for the  frogs or Ganeda of Gitwingax?  In Gitwingax, yes.  And are the Ganeda the 'Nii Dii for the Lax Skiik as  well as for you?  Yes.  Let's take another example.  In Kitsegukla can you  explain who would be the 'Nii Dii for you?  Well, I can't speak for them, but --  Just to give an example?  An example, if the fireweed, the Gisk'aast, were  putting up a feast, then the Ganeda in that village  would be their 'Nii Dii.  Do all of the Gitksan villages have this 'Nii Dii?  Yes.  : What's the number for 'Nii Dii, please?  LATOR: 353. 1  Q  2  3  4  A  5  6  7  8  9  0  Q  1  A  2  Q  3  A  4 MR.  GRANT  4755  Now, have you been involved as part of the frog clan's  'Nii Dii in meetings regarding any disputes about  fisheries in the Gitwingax territories?  Yes, I've been involved with two -- with the 'Nii Dii  part of it and in the feast hall I've seen my  grandfather perform his role as a 'Nii Dii, and I will  speak of how my role as a 'Nii Dii was that when there  was a dispute concerning the area, you have mentioned  the Boulder Creek area sinankxws, Fanny Williams --  Sinankxws is her name?  Yes.  Chief's name.  What house is she of?  From Haulus and Wii hlengwax.  :   Do you have a number for Haulus?  15 THE TRANSLATOR: Haulus is 25 on the plaintiffs' list.  16 THE WITNESS:   And she came to me when there was a meeting that  was held in Hazelton regarding this area and she spoke  and mentioned that "If you don't believe me or don't  want to take what I'm saying, ask my 'Nii Dii."  I  then rose and said that what she was trying -- the  message that was put across that the Boulder Creek  area actually belonged to them was true, and in the  case of my grandfather in the feast hall and --  Can you refer to which grandfather?  Geoffrey.  Geoffrey Morgan?  The late -- just the recent late Ax tii hiikw was in a  similar situation where the Ganeda was trying to put  on a chief's name on a non-Indian.  Was this at a Ganeda feast?  A Ganeda feast, and Lelt was trying to put, and then  Lelt said to the people that this name cannot go here,  but it's up to our 'Nii Dii to do something about  this, and then my grandfather Geoffrey, Ax tii hiikw,  stood up and he says "No, it cannot be held by this  person.", and it was then stopped.  So that's the two  recollections I have of actually the 'Nii Dii doing  the work.  If the 'Nii Dii -- if your -- like on the case where  your grandfather disagreed, could any of the other  chiefs who were guests at the feast stand up and  disagree with the 'Nii Dii, in this case your  grandfather, can they disagree with him or once the  'Nii Dii speaks does that have some impact on what  happens?  Like I said, without a 'Nii Dii the passing of a name  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  2 4 MR.  GRANT  25  Q  26  A  27  Q  28  A  29  30  31  Q  32  A  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  Q  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  A 4756  1 would not take place even if you -- your wilksi witxw  2 was there.  That's why I said the 'Nii Dii has a  3 bigger role.  4 Q   And let us say that you were there at a feast where  5 there was a description of -- and it was a frog feast,  6 a description of the frogs of the boundary say of  7 Lelt's or Wii hlengwax's territory, and you or your  8 grandfather disagreed with that, would it -- as the  9 'Nii Dii, would you have a role to play there when  10 that was described at the feast?  11 A   Yes.  12 Q   What would —  13 A   Like any -- like it is, you rise when you speak and  14 you mention this is not quite right, and then it's  15 noted by the people, by whoever -- whose house that  16 was then putting up the feast, then it's noted what  17 you have objected about and so in the next time you  18 have to put up your feast what you have objected on is  19 then corrected.  20 Q   Okay.  When you make decisions as Tenimgyet, and I  21 understand from what you've said you make them with Ax  22 tii hiikw, so the two of you make decisions relating  23 to your territory, do you have to consult with any  24 other chiefs outside of your house?  25 A   Yes.  I have demonstrated when sinankxws did that we  26 were involved along with other chiefs and so goes to  27 us, we do the same thing.  We have to involve other  28 chiefs like our -- our wilxsi leks or whatever, then  29 you go to a role known as a sisixsek, that mean you  30 pull out the chiefs, the forerunning chiefs, to make  31 these decisions, and these are the smaller areas I'm  32 talking about, not in the feast hall, but when you  33 have a dispute then you would go to certain chiefs and  34 ask them for -- to help you in these decision-making  35 roles, and they usually pull them from all the bands,  36 all the bands are what -- say that are all the houses.  37 They try to pull from every house of each of the  38 villages there, then there is -- they're in the  39 Gitksan, and at times that go to the Wet'suwet'en  40 through the Hagwilget, so everybody's involved in  41 these decisions.  42 Q   What was the word you said? You said there was a rule  43 about picking certain chiefs.  What was the name?  44 A   Not a rule, an r-o-l-e I'm talking about, a role like  45 the sisixsek.  46 MR. GRANT:   Sisixsek. Can you give a spelling for that?  47 THE TRANSLATOR: Sisixsek, S-i-s-i-x-s-e-k. 4757  THE WITNESS:   And that just is the pulling of the — you don't  put up a feast, you just bring the feasts you have  selected -- I mean the chiefs that you have selected  to go with you and/or to invite them to your place for  this decision-making.  GRANT:  You said this was something smaller -- you meant it  was smaller than a feast, is that what you meant?  COURT:  What he said was he said in lesser matters when  we're not at the feast.  MR.  THE  9  10 MR.  11  12  13 THE  14  15 MR.  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35 MR.  36  37 THE  38  39 THE  40  41 MR.  42  43  4 4 MR.  45 THE  4 6 THE  4 7 MR.  GRANT:  Q  A  COURT:  GRANT:  Q  Yes.  Yes.  Matters that he was dealing with other than at a  feast I gather.  A  A  Q  A  GRANT:  - Xamlaxyeltxw was  That's Solomon  Yes.  Now, are those meetings -- are those get  togethers with those chiefs, are they as important as  the feasts?  A   Yes, they are, but these are the smaller groups of  chiefs getting together before they would take this ir  front of the feast hall.  Q   I see.  Well, you gave an example of the chief who  called you in as the 'Nii Dii, what other chiefs were  involved, that is, invited to that meeting other than  the parties involved?  We had some from Kitwancool, from  invited.  That's 85 on the plaintiffs' list.  Larsden?  Yes.  Anyone else?  And there was -- there was one from Kitsegukla that  comes to mind that at that time was T'oo 'lixsim hloxs  which was from the House of Malii.  Okay.  Can you give that spelling to the court?  I  don't think it's on the plaintiffs' list.  TRANSLATOR: T'oo 'lixsim hloxs, T-'-o-o '-1-i-x-s-i-m  h-1-o-x-s.  WITNESS:   And then there was a member from Guxsan's house  was present whose name was 'Min Gemgan.  GRANT:  Q   Guxsan is 16, that's Herbert Wesley?  A   Yes.  GRANT:   Do you have that other name?  TRANSLATOR: 'Min Gemgan, '-M-i-n G-e-m-g-a-n.  COURT:  Was that Lesley or Wesley?  GRANT: 1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  4758  Wesley.  Wesley is Guxsan.  That's plaintiffs'  number -- number 16.  Now, when you make decisions  about your territory you would invite, even if it was  a pre-feast meeting, you would invite other chiefs?  Yes.  Would you invite chiefs from villages other than  Gitwingax?  Yes.  Would you invite -- which other villages would you  invite chiefs from for such a discussion?  If it was a short notice like meeting, it would have  to be called from Kitsegukla and Kitwancool.  Uh-huh?  And that way we'd do the same thing, pull people that  we want to have attend.  And if you had more time to give notice, who would you  invite if it wasn't an emergency?  Yeah, then we would go wider like to all the villages.  The Gitksan villages?  Gitksan, and if it was really a time length that give  us a long span, then yeah, to all of the Wet'suwet'en  houses that -- who can make it are invited, yes.  Okay.  My Lord, this may be an appropriate period  to stop.  All right.  Thank you.  Ten o'clock.  THE REGISTRAR: Order in court.  Court will adjourn to 10 a.m.  tomorrow morning.  (PROCEEDINGS ADJOURNED TO MARCH 18, 198 8)  I hereby certify the foregoing to  be a true and accurate transcript  of the proceedings herein to the  best of my skill and ability.  Tanita S. French  Official Reporter  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  A  Q  A  MR. GRANT  THE COURT

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