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Delgamuukw Trial Transcripts

[Proceedings of the Supreme Court of British Columbia 1988-02-10] British Columbia. Supreme Court Feb 10, 1988

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 THE  9  10 THE  11  12  13  14  15  16  17 MS.  18  19  2 0 THE  21 MS.  22 THE  2 3 MS.  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39 THE  4 0 THE  41 THE  42 MS.  43  44  45  46  47  3304  10 February 1988  Vancouver, B.C  REGISTRAR:  Order in court.  My apologies for the late  start.  As counsel may know, I had to preside at a  ceremony for Mr. Justice Ruttan this morning and I  wasn't unable to get away quite on time but I am  sure at the pace we are going, Ms. Mandell, we will  quickly make up the time.  REGISTRAR:  In the Supreme Court of British Columbia,  Wednesday, February 10, 1988; Delgamuukw versus Her  Majesty the Queen.  Caution Mr. Mitchell and Mr.  Holland, you are still under oath.  ALFRED MITCHELL, Resumed:  :  Could the witness be shown tab 20, please?  Mr.  Mitchell, do you recognize yourself in that  photograph?  I am sorry, Miss Mandell.  :  Tab 20.  You have got a photocopy.  No, no, it is a very good likeness.  Mr. Mitchell, do you recognize yourself in the  photograph?  Yeah.  This good looking guy is me.  And can you identify where it is that that  photograph was taken?  This was taken just about Neenlii, Neenlii wek'ut.  That's boundary, that's where it is taken.  I notice a number of animals in the photograph.  What animals are there?  Behind me there is a beaver.  I couldn't see it but  it's there.  Right there we are having lunch, me and  my wife.  I am sorry, can you remember when the photograph was  taken?  Eighty-two.  I am sorry?  :  Around '82.  Thank you.  And do you recall when that photograph was taken,  where it is that you were then hunting for beaver?  We are trapping beaver along that Neel dzii teezdlii  kwe, along the river right up to the lake this time.  Do we need a --  MANDELL  COURT:  MANDELL  COURT:  MANDELL  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  A  COURT:  WITNESS  COURT:  MANDELL  Q  A 2 MS. MANDELL  3 THE SPELLER  4 MS. MANDELL  5 THE SPELLER  3305  1 A    This was taken first week of May.  Okay.  Do you want the spelling?  Yes.  N-e-1-1 -- I am sorry.  N-e-e-1-underline-d-z-i-i  6 t-e-e-z-d-1-i-i k-w-e.  7 MS. MANDELL:  8 Q    And is that a creek which runs into the Sam Goosley  9 Lake?  10 A    This creek is running from Sam Goosley Lake.  11 Q    From Sam Goosley Lake?  12 A    From Sam Goosley Lake.  13 Q    On the southern part of the territory?  14 A    It runs northerly direction to Neelnii.  15 MS. MANDELL:  Okay.  I'd ask that that photograph be marked as  16 the next exhibit?  17 THE REGISTRAR:  Exhibit 212, tab 20.  18  19 (EXHIBIT 212 tab 20 - PHOTOGRAPH)  20  21 MS. MANDELL:  22 Q    Yesterday when you were speaking about the beaver  23 places from Exhibit 184, you identified the main  24 river systems in the north and the south portions of  25 the territory.  I'd like to ask you whether or not  26 the small lakes which are marked in black in the  27 southern end of the territory below Neel dzii  28 teezdlii kwe, are those lakes also lakes where there  29 is beaver trapping on Namox's territory?  30 A    Yes.  31 THE SPELLER:  Excuse me, what was that word?  32 MS. MANDELL:  33 Q    Pardon?  Neel dzii teezdlii kwe.  34 A    Neel dzii teezdlii kwe.  35 MS. MANDELL:  36 Q    Can you advise when the last time was when you were  37 to Namox's territory to trap for beaver?  38 A   About two years ago.  39 Q    Could the witness be shown Exhibit 211?  Have you  40 trapped for beaver in Caspit's territory?  41 A    Yes.  42 Q    And who have you trapped there with?  43 A    I trapped there with Late Sylvester William, Joe  44 Namox, Warner William, Sylvester son, he was a kid  45 that time.  46 Q    And where within Caspit's territory did you go to  47 trap beaver? 1  A  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  Q  12  13  14  15  16  17  A  18  MS.  MANDELL  19  THE  COURT:  20  MS.  MANDELL  21  22  THE  COURT:  23  MS.  MANDELL  24  THE  COURT:  25  MS.  MANDELL  26  Q  27  28  29  30  A  31  Q  32  33  34  35  36  A  37  Q  38  39  A  40  41  Q  42  43  44  A  45  Q  46  47  A  3306  All along this X'aas kwe, X'aas kwe.  We camp along  the creek going downstream.  First camp where we  find the beaver, we stay there for a night.  Then  just little ways, maybe mile apart, then we go down  to this fork here.  That's our main camp here.  This  Lots' wenii teezdlii between this two creeks as our  main camp.  From there, there is a meadow up a ways  for about a mile or so.  We go right up to this  L ots' wenii ben.  That's where we camped.  We camp  there about three days.  My lord, I am going to indicate on the exhibit with  a pen the beaver locations identified by the witness  by marking the words "beaver" along the river  systems and the meadow systems that he spoke about,  and I am going to indicate the location of the main  camp --  Main camp here and one --  :  -- with the letter D.  Is it on X'aas kwe Creek?  :  Yes.  It is at the point of interception between  the two creeks.  To X'aas kwe?  :  Yes.  How are you marking it, please?  I am going to mark it with a C.  I am sorry, it is  going to be marked with a D, and the place where the  camp is at the end of the river system near L ots'  wenii?  L ots' wenii.  L ots' wenii, the lake, I am going to mark with an  E, which is the second camping spot.  Can you tell us whether or not you would trap in  Caspit's territory for beaver?  Have you gone in in  your lifetime on more than one occasion?  I went to this about four times -- four times.  And on each occasion when you went in, did you stay  for longer than a night?  At this time we stayed about two weeks, me, John,  Warner and Late Sylvester William.  When you trapped for beaver on Caspit's territory,  did you give any or all of the beaver meat to  Sylvester Williams?  Most of it to Sylvester Williams.  And did he use that meat at feasts to your  knowledge?  He uses it at the feasts. 1  Q  2  3  A  4  Q  5  A  6  Q  7  8  9  A  10  Q  11  12  A  13  14  15  16  17  18  Q  19  A  20  MS.  MANDELL  21  22  23  24  25  THE  COURT:  26  27  MS.  MANDELL  28  29  THE  COURT:  30  MS.  MANDELL  31  THE  COURT:  32  MS.  MANDELL  33  34  35  THE  COURT:  36  MS.  MANDELL  37  Q  38  39  A  40  41  42  Q  43  44  45  A  46  Q  47  3307  And would you keep some of the beaver meat for  yourself?  I keep some for myself.  And what would you usually use that meat for?  I use for myself to eat it.  Okay.  Now, I'd like to take you now into Woos'  territory.  Have you been to Woos' territory to trap  beaver?  Yes.  And could you indicate where the beaver were trapped  and can be found on Woos' territory?  Okay.  There is the little lake right here.  That's  right here at that little lake.  We camp -- our main  camp is right by that lake and another camp is  just -- where the creek runs down about half ways  down where -- it is hardly marked on here.  That's  where it is marked.  Is the beaver along --  All the way down to this boundary.  :  I am going to mark the area identified as "beaver  area".  My lord, it follows Harold Price Creek from  approximately the place where we have marked -- it  is terrible when you can't read your own writing,  the letter A which is the main camp.  The letter A was where the river changes direction  or the water flow changes direction, was it not?  :  I don't think so.  I think that that's the red  barred line just to the south of that.  Oh, all right.  Yes.  :  The letter A was the camp.  Yes, all right.  :  And the beaver activity is from the letter A to  the boundary along what's in English referred to as  Harold Price Creek.  Yes, all right.  When you trapped beaver on Woos' territory, did you  go there to do so more than on one occasion?  I went first trip there was Dick Naziel and me and  Allan Naziel, Dick's son.  Second trip we went, Dick  came, the same party trip, Allan, me, Dick.  And when you went out there to Woos' territory for  both those trips which you have just described,  would you stay longer than a night?  Oh, the most we stayed there was four nights.  Okay.  And did you make another trip to Woos'  territory for beaver? 1  A  2  3  4  5  Q  6  A  7  Q  8  9  A  10  11  12  13  Q  14  15  16  A  17  Q  18  A  19  20  21  22  23  MS.  MANDELL  24  THE  SPELLER  25  THE  COURT:  26  THE  SPELLER  27  MS.  MANDELL  28  Q  29  30  31  32  A  33  Q  34  35  36  37  38  A  39  Q  40  41  42  43  A  44  MS.  MANDELL  45  46  THE  SPELLER  47  MS.  MANDELL  3308  Last trip we make was in the early 70's when Dick  was pretty sick and he told us to go over and check  it out.  There was me, Allan Naziel and Roy Naziel,  Dick's sons.  And did you trap beaver on that occasion?  Yes, we trapped beaver.  And did you -- what did you do with the beaver which  you were able to trap on that occasion?  Well, what we did -- what we caught, we didn't catch  too much that time.  When we got back to Dick's at  my father-in-law, we gave him some beaver and with  some meat.  When you are packing beaver out of the territory, do  you prepare the beaver in any way for to make it  lighter to pack?  Yes.  What do you do to make the beaver lighter?  Like reminds me of first day, we prepared Tsa k'ayh.  We dry it for about a week and get pretty light.  We  catch two big beaver fresh and that's all they can  pack.  They are heavy but once it's dried, you can  pack about six beavers, Tsa k'ayh, maybe more.  :  Mr. Mitchell, can we have that spelling again?  :  Tsa k'ayh, T-s-a-k-'-a-y-h.  A-y-h?  :  A-y-h.  Is the drying of beaver meat the way that you have  just described to make it light for packing, is that  a practise common to the Wet'suwet'en who are on the  territories generally?  Yes.  All the trappers do that.  And when Dick Naziel sent you to his territory for  beaver when he was unable to go there himself and  you brought him back beaver from his territory, is  that a practise common to Wet'suwet'en generally on  their territories?  Yes.  And is it also common among the Wet'suwet'en that  when you trap for beaver you will go into the  territory for several days and pitch a camp and trap  beaver from that camp?  Yes.  :  Now, I'd like to ask you about Knedebeas'  territory and perhaps we can get a number for that.  :  105. 1  Q  2  3  4  A  5  Q  6  7  A  8  9  Q  10  11  A  12  Q  13  A  14  Q  15  16  17  18  A  19 MS.  MANDELL  20  3309  105.  Dealing first with the portion of the  territory around the Morice River, have you ever  trapped beaver in that territory?  Yes.  And can you advise when you were first on this  territory to trap beaver?  It was in 1961, Sylvester and wife, make my first  trip in that area.  And by what right did Sylvester have to be in that  area?  Sylvester wife is Christine Holland's daughter.  And Christine Holland was Knedebeas at that time?  Knedebeas.  And you mentioned earlier in your evidence that  Christine Holland announced that you would have a  permanent invitation to her territory.  Did that  include the right to trap for beaver there?  Yes.  :  When you went in in 1981, can you advise where you  stayed?  21 THE COURT:  I am sorry, did he say 1981?  22 MS. MANDELL:  23 Q    I am sorry, 1961.  Can you advise where you stayed?  24 A    Oh, we -- we pull the canoe up the river and we  25 stayed in most Gosnell River where it runs into  26 Morice River.  There is a cabin there.  Sylvester  27 told me that the cabin was built by himself, Late  28 Jim Holland, Late Joe Holland.  29 MS. MANDELL:  And how long did you stay in that cabin hunting --  30 trapping for beaver on that occasion?  31 MR. MACKENZIE:  My lord, may I interrupt my learned friend on  32 this line of questioning?  My lord, on January 6,  33 1988, as I mentioned to your lordship yesterday, we  34 received a summary of evidence of this witness and  35 in that evidence we were advised that this witness  36 would be speaking about the Goosley Lake territory,  37 the Blunt Creek territory, and Tac'etsol'een  38 territory, which is Poplar Lake.  Now, that is  39 another territory of Knedebeas down south.  What the  40 witness is talking about now is the Gosnell Creek  41 territory, and our understanding was that Sarah  42 Layton would be speaking about that or speaking  43 about this generally so we are not really -- we  44 weren't prepared for this witness discussing the  45 Gosnell Creek territory of Knedebeas.  4 6 MS. MANDELL:  My lord, I don't have the summary with me but I do  47 recall that we identified in the summary that he 1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  3310  would be speaking about his trapping in other areas  as well as the three main territories which we  identified that he'd be describing the boundaries on  which are -- we say that -- under topic, "Further  Territories Where He's Hunted and Trapped", after we  identified the three main territories whose  boundaries he would identify, we say that although  hunting and trapping has taken place within the  Wet'suwet'en territories mentioned above, he will  testify that there are other territories where he's  hunted and trapped and he will describe those  locations.  With respect to each of those  territories, he will describe his rights to be on  the territory, with whom he travelled, the resources  taken and the way of life on the territories, and  we'd expected to include this evidence and other  territories.  THE COURT:  You are not asking this witness about the boundaries  of the --  MS. MANDELL:  No, he is not proving the boundaries of this  territory.  MR. MACKENZIE:  Fine, my lord.  I agree we were advised that  there would be general evidence about other  territories, as long as that's clear that we are not  going to be getting evidence about the boundaries of  this new territory.  COURT:  All right.  You seem to be on common ground then.  MANDELL:  Unusual.  MACKENZIE:  Yes.  My lord, again this is a disclosure  problem.  It would have assisted us if my friends  had been able to tell me which other territories Mr.  Mitchell is going to be speaking about.  We weren't asked and, if we had been, I am sure we  could have provided the detail we could.  There is  more than one territory that we are going to be  touching upon in this general description of other  territories.  THE COURT:  I don't think the useful procedure of exchanging  particulars of evidence goes so far, Mr. Mackenzie,  that one should be held to them.  I think the main  purpose was the boundaries.  I am sure you are right  when you say it would have helped if you would have  been given that information.  It would have been  right if you had -- might have been better if you  asked which ones and would have been better still if  they answered, including this one, but I can't do  anything about that now.  I don't see any basis  THE  MS.  MR.  MS. MANDELL: 1  2  3  MS.  MANDELL  4  Q  5  6  7  8  A  9  Q  0  A  1  2  MS.  MANDELL  3311  which I can stop Ms. Mandell from producing this  evidence.  You may proceed.  Thank you.  We were talking about your trip into the  Morice River territory around 1961, and I'd like to  canvas with you how long it was that you stayed in  the territory to trap beaver on that time?  We stayed there just little over three weeks.  And do you recall who you were with?  Late Sylvester William, Late Sam Seymour, Late Ben  Holland, Warner William and me.  :  Okay.  Could the witness be shown tab 12, please?  13 THE COURT:  While you are looking at that, can you tell me what  14 is the name of the river, please, where you camped  15 which runs -- where it runs into the Morice River?  16 THE WITNESS:  Gosnell River.  17 MS. MANDELL:  Gosnell.  18 THE COURT:  As in Jim?  19 THE WITNESS:  Call that river Taal biits kwe.  20 THE COURT:  I will need a spelling for that.  21 THE SPELLER:  T-a-a-1 b-i-i-t-s k-w-e.  22 THE COURT:  I am sorry, i-i?  23 THE SPELLER:  B-i-i-t-s k-w-e.  2 4 THE COURT:  Thank you.  25 MS. MANDELL:  26 Q    I am looking at the picture at tab 12, and I would  27 ask you first to look at the small, older cabin on  28 the left -- on my left -- is it yours, too?  29 A    Yes.  30 Q    The left-hand side of the picture, and I'd ask  31 whether or not you could identify that cabin?  32 A    That's -- Late Sylvester William build us that  33 cabin, he's -- when he's trapping marten.  34 Q    Do you know where that cabin is located?  35 A    This cabin is located just south side of Morice  36 River.  37 Q    And when you spoke to us earlier about the cabin  38 where you stayed in 1961, which you indicated that  39 Sylvester William and the Late Joe Holland and the  40 Late Jim Holland had built, can you help us place  41 where that older cabin is in relationship to this  42 one that we see in the picture?  43 A    Okay.  From this cabin here, go down river maybe  44 three miles, that will be flowing north, flowing  45 north -- north-east or something.  About three miles  46 from this, that's where the Gosnell River is.  47 Q    The witness is indicating off the picture to the 3312  1 right about three miles.  And do you know when it  2 was that Sylvester Williams built this small cabin  3 that you have pointed out on this picture?  4 A    In early 80's.  5 Q    And when you've been to the Morice River to trap  6 beaver, have you ever stayed in that cabin to do  7 that?  8 A    No.  We stayed in the Gosnell River.  This one here  9 is when he was trapping marten, that's the time he  10 stayed here.  11 Q    And the little cabin to the right of it, the newer  12 cabin, do you know first of all who built that  13 cabin?  14 A    Warner started.  Warner and his brother, Gerry, and  15 me, we started building it, and they went up there  16 to work on it just on weekends and it is not  17 finished yet.  18 Q    Okay.  19 A    I was supposed to be there May in cabin for marten  20 trapping.  21 MS. MANDELL:  Okay.  I'd ask that that photograph be marked as  22 the next exhibit?  2 3 THE COURT:  Yes.  24 THE REGISTRAR:  213 tab 12.  25  26 (EXHIBIT 213 tab 12 - PHOTOGRAPH)  27  28 THE COURT:  When would you say this picture was taken?  29 THE WITNESS:  This picture was taken '87.  3 0 THE COURT:  Thank you.  31 MS. MANDELL:  32 Q    You have mentioned the trip in 1981 when you were on  33 the Morice River and the Gosnell River area to trap  34 beaver.  Did you return any other times to trap  35 beaver in that territory?  36 A    Yes.  37 Q    And can you recall when it was that you then  38 returned?  39 A    The next year we went back, that will be me, Sam  40 Seymour -- Late Sam Seymour, Late Ben Holland and  41 Warner William, four of us that time.  42 Q    And do you recall at that time how long you stayed  43 in the territory to trap beaver?  44 A    We stayed there less than -- little less than three  45 weeks.  4 6 Q    And do you recall at that time where your main camp  47 was? 1  A  2  3  Q  4  5  A  6  7  8  9  10  11  Q  12  A  13  Q  14  15  A  16  Q  17  A  18  Q  19  20  A  21  Q  22  23  24  25  A  26  27  Q  28  29  30  A  31  32  Q  33  A  34  35  36  Q  37  A  38  Q  39  A  40  Q  41  42  A  43  44  45  46  47  Q  3313  We were at the main camp, the same cabin as Gosnell  river.  Did you return again to trap beaver for a third  time?  Few years later, quite a few years later, there was  me, Kenny Mitchell and Sylvester William, we  travelled up the river with small boat, 14 foot  outboard motor.  We stayed in that cabin, not in  that cabin.  It was -- by that time, it was rotted  down.  This was in the 70's.  Which cabin did you stay in?  That Gosnell River cabin.  Was that -- was the Gosnell River cabin rotted down  in the 70's?  Yeah.  That time it was -- the roof was caved in.  Where did you stay during that trip?  We had a tent.  We stayed in a tent.  Was it during that trip that you took your two sons,  Darwin and Norman?  That was in the 80's.  Okay, it is another trip.  And how long did you stay  in the -- in to trap beaver the time when you went  in with Sylvester and Kenny which you have just  described?  We stayed with them by the river along the highway  for two weeks.  We stayed in a tent.  And the time that you went in with your two young  boys in the 1980's, was that the next time that you  went in to trap beaver?  Yeah.  Next time I went with Sylvester William.  He  invited us there.  And who else was with you during that trip?  That trip was Kenny Mitchell, Roger Michell, Francis  Holland, me and my wife, Charlotte, and my two  little boys, Francis Holland.  And do you recall where you stayed on that occasion?  Where we stayed?  Yes?  Yeah.  We stayed along the road under a tent.  How long were you in the territory to trap at that  time?  At that time Sylvester stayed there longer than us.  He came to me where the truck, and asked me, said,  you want to go up and trap beaver with me for a  while.  Sure.  So we went.  That time we stayed with  Sylvester for two weeks.  Okay.  And was that the last time that you were on MS.  THE  MS.  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  4 0 THE  41 MS.  42  43  44  45  46  47  A  Q  A  3314  the territory trapping beaver?  A    Yes.  MANDELL:  Could the witness be shown Exhibit 183?  I think  it is at --  REGISTRAR: Tab 19.  MANDELL:  Q    Yes, tab 19.  Was this photograph taken at the  Morice River area the last time when you were there  trapping beaver?  Yes.  Okay.  When you trapped beaver in the Morice River  area, how did the beaver meat which was trapped, how  was that meat distributed among the people who were  doing the trapping?  That first trip we made in Gosnell River, we dried  all the meat, whatever meat we can dry.  After, we  take it down to Houston, Christine Holland.  We go  in her house who was give all -- most of the meat to  her, and we'd give her some beaver.  Okay.  Beaver pelt.  And to your knowledge, was the meat which you gave  to Christine Holland distributed at the feast?  Yes.  And how would you distribute the furs, the beaver  pelts that were trapped?  Well, it would be five of us.  If there is 20 beaver  we have -- we each have four.  It is just like that.  Now, there is also a territory around Pack Lake and  Poplar Lake which is also Knedebeas' territory; is  that correct?  Yes.  And have you been to that territory to trap beaver?  Yes.  Can you describe where the beaver trapping which you  did there is done in that Pack Lake and Poplar Lake  area?  Start in Pack Lake, it is a lot of beaver along  Nadina River.  Is that P-a-c-k?  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  A  Q  A  Q  A  COURT:  MANDELL:  Q  A  Yes.  Right in Pack Lake there is a little creek runs out  from Pack Lake.  There is beaver dam all the way  down to the river where we trap beaver.  All along  the road the Nadina River, we go out a ways to the  river, set traps.  Our main camp would be in THE  THE  THE  MS.  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31 THE  32 THE  33  34  35  3 6 MS.  37 THE  38  39  4 0 THE  41 THE  42 THE  43 THE  44 THE  45 THE  4 6 THE  47 THE  3315  Tac'etsol'een, that's Poplar Lake.  SPELLER:  324.  COURT:  Sorry?  SPELLER:  324.  MANDELL:  Q    Could the witness be shown tab 16, please?  Can you  identify the location where this picture was taken?  A    This here is a tent.  They are staying under a tent.  There is about mile from Pack Lake.  Q    And is this the main camping place where those that  are trapping beaver stay at Pack Lake?  A    That's where Sylvester's main camp here.  Q    Okay.  And I noticed that in the picture there is  some animals that are -- or carcasses of animals  that are hanging up to dry on the right-hand side of  the picture.  Can you identify what those creatures  are?  A    Those are the beavers that's hanging up.  Q    And there is -- it looks like other -- another form  of -- well, it looks like there is another kind of  animal being --  A    There is others.  Q    -- stretched just below where the beaver meat is  hanging.  Do you know what kind of meat that is?  A    Musk-rats.  Q    Okay.  Can you identify the people that are in the  picture?  A    Start left-hand side looking at me?  Q    Yes?  A    Doris Michell, Lawrence Michell's wife.  COURT:  I am sorry?  WITNESS:  Doris Michell, and the middle with the red shirt  on, Helen Mitchell, Kenny Mitchell's wife, and Kenny  Mitchell sitting there.  That's late Sylvester  William's son-in-law.  MANDELL:  Okay.  Are the two —  COURT:  I am sorry, I have got four here and I only see  three.  Doris Mitchell is the one on the left, is  she?  WITNESS:  Doris Michell.  COURT:  Michell, I am sorry.  She is George Michell's wife?  WITNESS:  That's Lawrence Michell's wife.  COURT:  But he is not in the picture?  WITNESS:  He is not in the picture, no.  COURT:  All right.  And then Helen Mitchell?  WITNESS:  Helen Mitchell.  COURT:  Is in the red shirt? 1 THE  2 THE  3 THE  4 THE  5 MS.  6  7  8  9 MS.  10  11 THE  12 THE  13  14  15  16 MS.  17  18  19  20  21 MS.  22 THE  23  24 THE  25 THE  2 6 MS.  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41 MS.  42  43 THE  44 THE  45  46  47  WITNESS:  COURT:  WITNESS:  COURT:  MANDELL:  Q  A  MANDELL:  COURT:  REGISTRAR:  3316  Yes.  And the gentleman --  Ken Mitchell.  Ken Mitchell.  Thank you.  Can you estimate how long ago this picture was taken  judging from the age of the people there?  It was probably taken in '85.  Okay.  And if you could also -- yes, I'd ask that  that be marked as the next exhibit?  Yes.  214 tab 16.  (EXHIBIT 214 tab 16 - PHOTOGRAPH)  MANDELL:  Q    When you were trapping for beaver at the Pack Lake  area, had you also stayed at that same camping spot?  A    Last spring me and Kenny was -- set up a tent.  We  stayed in that same spot.  MANDELL:  We'll just get this picture marked.  COURT:  Is that a sheet of plastic, that tent, or is that  canvas or what is it?  WITNESS:  Oh, yes, that's plastic.  COURT:  Plastic, thank you.  MANDELL:  Q    Is there a tent inside the plastic?  Is there a  second tent underneath where the plastic tent is?  A    That's just plastic wall.  Q    Could the witness be shown tab 11, please?  Can you  identify the place where this picture is taken?  A    Yes.  That place where we just seen little while  ago, that's in the background, you can see that  plastic tent.  Q    Okay.  And can you tell us who the gentleman is in  the picture?  A    The gentleman standing looking the other way is Dan  Michell, and the gentleman that's sitting down  kneeling here is stretching the beaver, that's  Sylvester William, Late Sylvester William.  MANDELL:  I wonder then if that picture could be marked as  the next exhibit?  COURT:  Yes.  REGISTRAR:  That will be 215 tab 11,  (EXHIBIT 215 tab 11  PHOTOGRAPH) 1  MS.  MANDELL  2  Q  3  4  A  5  Q  6  7  8  A  9  Q  10  11  12  A  13  14  Q  15  16  17  A  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  Q  26  A  27  28  THE  SPELLER  29  THE  COURT:  30  THE  SPELLER  31  MS.  MANDELL  32  Q  33  34  A  35  Q  36  37  38  A  39  40  41  Q  42  43  A  44  45  46  Q  47  3317  Judging from Sylvester's age in the picture, can you  identify or estimate when that picture was taken?  That would be taken about '84, '85.  And Sylvester is stretching the beaver skin.  Have  you yourself stretched skin in the same way that  Sylvester is doing?  Yes.  And is that manner of stretching skin common to the  Wet'suwet'en people who are in their territories and  trapping beaver?  Nowadays, yes.  In older days, I stretch it  different.  What's the main difference between how the beaver is  stretched nowadays and how it was stretched in the  olden days?  In olden days they stretch beaver, they got two  willows tied on both ends and spread it, spread it  out so wide.  And what they do with this beaver  skin, drill holes right around it and they put small  red willows right around it, maybe two of them, and  then they split the stretcher.  They use c'el tay to  stretch it between that beaver and the stretcher.  C'el tay from -- it is from willows.  We will just get the spelling.  It's more work that way but now we got nails and  hammer, it is easier.  :  595.  Sorry, 5 --  :  95.  Did you go to the Pack Lake/Poplar Lake area to trap  beaver on more than one occasion?  Yes.  Can you advise approximately how often it is that  you would have gone to that territory to trap for  beaver?  Once we went in there with Christine Holland and her  son, me and my wife, Sylvester William and his wife,  Late Sam Seymour, Late Dan Holland, Warner William.  Okay.  And are there other occasions when you have  gone into that territory to trap for beaver?  Yes.  Last time I went was last spring, me and Kenny  Mitchell, to check on that trapline for Catherine  Michell.  And did Catherine Michell ask you to go in and check  on the territory? 1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  2 6 THE  2 7 MS.  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  3 9 MS.  4 0 THE  41 THE  42  43  44  45 THE  4 6 THE  4 7 MS.  A  Q  A  A  Q  A  Q  A  SPELLER  MANDELL  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  MANDELL  COURT:  REGISTRAR:  3318  Yes.  And did you report back to her what it is that you  found there?  At that time it was -- cabin was stayed in this camp  here.  We went in the -- there is a beaver house so  we set traps there.  That night we caught two.  The  next day, we were gonna shoot some because it is not  a running water.  Right by that lake there is a big  beaver house so I sat there.  I watched, I look out  there on the pond.  It looks like beaver there.  Sure was.  Somebody shot that beaver and left it  there.  So Dan loan us that little portable boat.  We took it out there and took the beaver out, and it  must have been in there for about two weeks already  so that's what Catherine was, that's what Catherine  was -- there were poachers.  Does Catherine to your knowledge have a chief's name  in Knedebeas' house?  Yes.  Do you know what her name is?  Weeliih.  And is the chief holding the name Weeliih  traditionally responsible for the Pack Lake and  Poplar Lake area?  Yes.  :  483.  I'd ask that the witness be shown tab 13?  Can you  identify the location of the picture?  Yes.  It's right by Pack Lake.  And who is the person in the picture?  Dan Michell.  And can you identify what it is that he's standing  in front of?  He's standing in front of graveyard fence.  And do you know whose children or grandchildren are  buried in that graveyard?  Late Christine Holland.  :  I ask that that be marked as the next exhibit?  Yes.  216 tab 13.  (EXHIBIT 216 tab 13  PHOTOGRAPH)  COURT:  That is at what lake?  Is that Pack Lake?  WITNESS:  Pack Lake, yes.  MANDELL: 1  Q  2  3  A  4  Q  5  A  6  7  THE  COURT:  8  THE  WITNESS  9  MS.  MANDELL  10  Q  11  A  12  Q  13  A  14  15  Q  16  17  A  18  19  20  21  22  23  THE  COURT:  24  THE  WITNESS  25  26  MS.  MANDELL  27  Q  28  29  A  30  Q  31  32  A  33  34  Q  35  36  A  37  38  39  40  41  Q  42  43  A  44  Q  45  46  47  A  3319  Could the witness be shown tab 22?  Can you identify  the location where this picture is taken?  This picture is taken Telkwa River?  And who's in the picture?  That's Winnie Joseph.  That's Ellen Michell's  daughter and Joe Joe, Winnie's husband.  His name again, please?  :  Winnie Joseph and Joe Joe.  What's Joe Joe's full name?  Joseph Joseph.  That's Ellen Michell's son-in-law.  Were you present when this picture was taken?  I took that picture in the 80's.  We were moose  hunting that time.  And in this Telkwa River area, have you trapped for  beaver in that territory?  Well, one first -- first went up there was with Late  Little Tommy and his wife and this Joe Joe and his  wife, me, my brother Billy who went up there with  Late Little Tommy; my first trip up there beaver  trapping.  Of course Little Tommy ask me to go with  them.  When was that, please?  :  In -- this will be in the early 70's when we  trapped beaver there.  Was your first trip into the territory in the early  70's or was it earlier than that?  No, it is earlier than that.  When was your first trip trapping beaver in that  territory?  Of course when I first -- when they first build the  road right in that area.  Have you been to that territory on more than one  occasion to trap beaver?  Well, trapping beaver again, they went with Little  Tommy and his wife, Winnie Joseph and his husband,  Joe Joe, my brother Billy -- oh, yeah, and my  brother, Billy, and my other brother, Lawrence  Michell, my half brother.  And this territory at Telkwa River, did your father  at one time have a trapline on that territory?  He was registered to have that registered at once.  And did he have rights under the Wet'suwet'en law to  be there at the time when he had a registered  trapline?  He was Neg'edeld'es when the Fishing Wildlife 1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  MS.  THE  MS.  3320  having -- registered him -- that trapline to him.  Q    And did he then turn that territory back at the  feast hall to the proper owner?  A    Yes.  Q    And who at that time was the proper owner that he  turned it back to?  A    Little Tommy.  Q    And do you know Little Tommy's clan?  A    Laksilyu.  Q    And do you know when the territory was turned back  to Little Tommy at the feast approximately what  year?  A    In the 50's, mid 50's, somewhere around there.  MANDELL:  I think there is some names that we should get.  SPELLER:  Neg'edeld'es, 192; Laksilyu, 134.  MANDELL:  And, my lord, at this time if I could mark the  photo at tab 22 as an exhibit?  THE REGISTRAR:  217 tab 22.  (EXHIBIT 217 tab 22  PHOTOGRAPH)  MS.  MANDELL:  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  And speaking about the people with whom you have  trapped beaver on Namox's territory, Caspit, Woos  and Knedebeas' territory for those people who you  have mentioned, are they all regular hunters of  beaver?  They are all regular hunters --  Okay.  -- and trappers.  And the practises which you describe when you were  discussing your hunting and trapping for beaver in  those territories, are those practises relating to  beaver common to the Wet'suwet'en people in other  parts of the Wet'suwet'en territory?  It is common, yes.  I ask you to turn now to tab 17?  Can you identify  the people in the picture?  Yes.  Starting on left-hand side sitting down,  that's Ken Mitchell, and standing in the middle,  that's Late Sylvester William, and by the window is  Lucy William.  Okay.  What Sylvester is holding here is a bunch of  martens.  Judging from the age of Sylvester and Lucy in the  photograph, can you estimate when this photograph 3321  1 was taken?  2 A    That probably in '83 or '84.  3 Q    Okay.  And you mentioned yesterday that some marten  4 were more valuable than others depending on their --  5 the colour of their pelt.  Looking at the marten  6 which Sylvester has in the picture, are these the  7 marten which are the forest marten of more value or  8 are they the ones which have less value?  9 A    This one he's holding there, it look pretty good,  10 that dark brown, very good marten.  And what you get  11 in -- in our territories some species like that, and  12 lighter jackpine area, they are pale.  They are  13 pretty near half the price as this.  14 Q    And —  15 A    When you get into a bigger timber, they are dark,  16 they get more money for them.  17 Q    Do you know approximately how much one of the pelts  18 of marten would be worth which is being held by  19 Sylvester there, just one of them?  20 A    Right now, big one would be 125.  21 MS. MANDELL:  I'd ask that that photograph be marked as the next  22 exhibit?  23 THE REGISTRAR:  218 tab 17.  24  25 (EXHIBIT 218 tab 17 - PHOTOGRAPH)  26  27 MS. MANDELL:  28 Q    For the marten where the pelts are lighter in  29 colour, how much would one of those pelts be worth  30 to your knowledge at this point?  31 A    One he is holding there, it -- that's a large marten  32 they are holding there.  Like I say, it all depends  33 on the colour.  If it is pale, this one would be  34 about $80, 75.  35 Q    I'd ask that the witness be shown tab 15?  Can you  36 identify where this picture was taken?  37 A    That's on Dennis Mountain.  38 Q    And is that on Wah tah k'eght's territory?  39 A    Yes.  40 Q    And can you identify the people that are in the  41 picture, or some of them?  42 A    Starting left-hand side, sitting down is Brian  43 Michell, Dan's son; Roger Michell, Dan's son; Warner  44 William, Late Sylvester's son; I don't know that  45 little boys; and the next to Warner William is Percy  46 Michell -- Dan, his son, and the end here in red  47 soldier jacket is Victor Jim; and these boys here, 1  2  3  MS.  MANDELL  4  5  THE  REGISTR  6  7  8  9  MS.  MANDELL  10  Q  11  12  13  A  14  15  Q  16  A  17  MS.  MANDELL  18  19  20  21  THE  COURT:  22  23  THE  WITNESS  24  THE  COURT:  25  THE  WITNESS  26  THE  COURT:  27  28  THE  WITNESS  29  THE  COURT:  30  THE  WITNESS  31  THE  COURT:  32  MS.  MANDELL  33  Q  34  35  36  A  37  38  39  Q  40  41  A  42  43  44  THE  COURT:  45  THE  WITNESS  46  MS.  MANDELL  47  Q  3322  left-hand side, it will be Warner William's son.  I  couldn't place these other two little kids.  I'd ask that that photograph be marked as the next  exhibit?  VR:  219 tab 15.  (EXHIBIT 219 tab 15 - PHOTOGRAPH)  Perhaps the witness could be shown Exhibit 164?  Can  you identify approximately where within the  territory Dennis Mountain is located?  It is not on this map.  It's behind this Hudson Bay  Mountain here.  So it is outside of Wah tah k'eght's territory?  Yes, behind that.  :  Okay.  My lord, the witness has indicated that it  is north of Ts'ed eek'aay, north of Hudson Bay  Mountain pointing west -- north-west of Hudson Bay  Mountain.  Thank you.  Would that be in the drainage area that  flows down to the Skeena?  :  No.  That's -- that flows into Telkwa River.  Telkwa River?  :  Yeah, that corner.  That's head of Pine Creek.  Which direction is the camera facing here, can you  tell me that?  :  That camera is facing south-east.  South-east towards Telkwa?  :  Yeah.  Okay, yes, south-east.  All right, thank you.  Judging from the age of the people in the  photograph, can you estimate approximately when this  photograph was taken?  About a year ago maybe, year or two.  According to  this little boy here, Warner's son, I'd say about  two years ago.  And have you yourself hunted moose in that  territory?  We go up in this area just to picnic around.  We  never did hunt around.  The road is right up in this  area.  Pretty high for moose, isn't it?  :  Too high for moose.  Some groundhogs there but --  Have you hunted for groundhogs much in that 1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  A  THE COURT:  THE WITNESS  MS. MANDELL  Q  A  Q  A  A  THE COURT:  MS. MANDELL  3323  territory?  I tried to shoot one.  I miss them.  It is few, not  very many, because there is lot of travellers,  tourists, and even tourists, they drive up there.  This is above the timber line?  :  That's right on the mountain this one here.  I notice that a lot of the children in the picture  are there hunting with their fathers.  Have you ever  sent your children, or any of them, out to hunt for  you?  I have my children with me sometimes in this area,  showed them what's life is like.  Even in Sam  Goosley, take them out.  I am sorry.  Now, what we like to do is now is show them how to  trap and in trapping season.  Trouble is, they go to  school September and that's the time we start  trapping and we can't take them out.  Have you ever sent any of your children out to hunt  for you when you have been unable yourself to go?  Yes.  Fern, always hunt moose, Fern Mitchell.  Shall we take the morning adjournment, Miss Mandell?  :  Sure.  THE REGISTRAR:  Order in court.  (MORNING ADJOURNMENT AT 11:15 A.M.)  I hereby certify the foregoing to  be a true and accurate transcript  of the proceedings herein,  transcribed to the best of my  skill and ability.  TANNIS DEFOE, Official Reporter  United Reporting Service Ltd. 3324  1 (PROCEEDINGS RECONVENED AT 11:35 A.M.)  2  3 THE REGISTRAR:  Order in court.  Ready to proceed, my lord.  4 MS. MANDELL:  5 Q   Thank you.  Mr. Mitchell, just prior to the break you  6 were talking about the -- the taking out of the  7 children into the territory, and you mentioned that  8 it's -- the children now go to school.  In spite of  9 the fact that the children go to school, are they  10 still taken out into the territory by the  11 Wet'suwet'en to be trained?  12 A   Yes.  13 Q   We had also been talking about the children being sent  14 to the territory by their parents to hunt.  Have you  15 ever sent your -- your children to hunt for you?  16 A  My son Vern.  When I was -- I had a car accident in  17 '82 somewhere.  Yeah, in '82.  Him and my brother  18 Billy, I loan them my pick-up.  They went -- they  19 went hunting for me.  20 Q   Is -- did you -- is your son Vern and your son John  21 the same people or are they two different people?  22 A   Son Vern and John two different people.  23 Q   And have you ever sent your son John out to the  24 territory to hunt for you?  25 A   Once in '82 -- '83 I sent John out to hunt for me.  2 6 Q   And was that also at the time when you had been in an  27 accident?  28 A   I had an accident in '82, fall.  29 Q   And when John was sent into the territory by you, do  30 you recall whether or not you got a sustenance  31 permit for him at that time?  32 A   Yes.  33 Q   And why did you do that?  34 A   Because I was -- in that accident I had seven ribs  35 broken, and I can't hunt for myself, so I sent John  36 out to hunt moose for me.  I had to get him a permit  37 to shoot one moose.  38 Q   And you testified, though, that when you go out  39 hunting you don't get permits; is that correct?  4 0 A   No.  41 Q   What was your thinking in -- in having John get a  42 permit?  43 A   In that area there was two, in the winter,  44 conservation officers always was watching, so I play  45 it safe for him if I get him a permit.  That's why I  46 got this permit for him.  47 Q   I'm going to show to you a letter, which is dated July 3325  1 8th, 1957, and it's a letter which I wonder whether  2 or not you're able to identify?  3 A   Yes, we had a meeting in Moricetown.  Thought it's in  4 the -- in the fall.  I mean, that's somewhere  5 north -- I don't know what building.  But anyway, we  6 had a meeting about the chiefs elder — elders --  7 the elders, their having problem with that fish  8 ladder.  The fish are depleting, and they wanted  9 some fish.  That's what they were meeting about.  At  10 that time -- before that ladder was put in they had  11 a meeting with Fisheries.  They promised them fish  12 from the coast if they're not getting any fish from  13 this fish ladder.  And another thing they promised  14 them is that they'd brought that ladder and that  15 keeps them fish out of there, and that didn't  16 happen.  That's what this meeting was about.  And in  17 the later years they brought some fish from the  18 coast.  They said it was no good.  I wasn't there at  19 the time, but they said it's no good.  20 And then going down to this poisoning wolves, I  21 know myself they are poisoning wolves.  Dumping  22 baits on the lakes with airplane, and along the  23 river dumping baits, poison baits.  I know there was  24 a lot of wolves that year.  At that time once my  25 father was working the pole camp, Beament, hunting  26 moose.  He went up the river on the bank.  He was  27 coming down along the river.  There's a canyon, big  28 canyon like this, and he seen one fox sitting there,  29 just wobbling around.  He says he looks like he's  30 drunk, he says.  Here there's bait along the river,  31 poison bait just for the wolves.  And that fox ate  32 that bait, and my father didn't want to do anything  33 with it, so he just said left that fox the way it  34 was.  You see, that's -- that's when we start  35 talking about this poison -- throwing them poison  36 baits in the lakes.  That might affect some fish  37 too.  That was the concern of the -- our elders in  38 Moricetown.  39 Q   And so then did you express those concerns along with  40 Mr. Williams and Peter Alfred in a letter to Mr.  41 Jones, the Indian Commissioner in 1957?  42 A   Yes, we was councillors that time.  43 MS. MANDELL:  Okay.  I'd ask that this letter be tendered as the  44 next exhibit.  45 MS. KOENIGSBERG:  I wonder if my friend would have a copy of  46 that letter for us.  47 MS. MANDELL:  I don't have a copy.  We got it from the federal 3326  1 government, my lord.  2 MS. KOENIGSBERG:  The federal government has thousands of  3 documents.  I wasn't aware she was going to use this  4 one, and that's fine.  I just would appreciate a  5 copy.  6 MS. MANDELL:  We could make a copy at lunch.  7 THE COURT:  All right.  8 THE REGISTRAR:  Exhibit number 220.  9 THE COURT:  I suppose, strictly speaking, it's evidence that  10 only affects the federal government and not the --  11 MS. MANDELL:  Provincial.  12 THE COURT:  — Provincial Attorney General.  13 MS. MANDELL:  Well, except to the extent that the bait might  14 have been a provincial concern.  15 MR. MACKENZIE:  Nobody says that, my lord.  16 THE COURT:  A letter written to somebody else wouldn't prove  17 anything against the Provincial Attorney General,  18 but it can be marked for that limited purpose.  19 MR. MACKENZIE:  I haven't had a chance to see that letter  20 either, my lord.  21 THE COURT:  Well, it doesn't affect you.  22 MR. MACKENZIE:  No.  Thank you, my lord.  23 THE COURT:  That will be Exhibit 220.  24 THE REGISTRAR:  220, my lord.  2 5 THE COURT:  Yes.  26  27 (EXHIBIT 220 - LETTER TO COLONEL A.M. JONES FROM  2 8 ALFRED MICHELL, G. WILLIAMS AND PETER ALFRED DATED  29 JULY 8, 1957)  30  31 MS. MANDELL:  You testified yesterday that since 1952,  32 approximately, you haven't been trapping marten  33 regularly in the Namox's territory.  Have you --  34 THE COURT:  What year did you say?  35 MS. MANDELL:  I had identified 1952.  3 6 THE COURT:  Yes.  37 MS. MANDELL:  38 Q   Since that time have you been earning money from  39 logging?  40 A   Yes.  41 Q   And did your father and grandfather too earn money  42 from logging?  43 A  My grandfather, he started a pole camp at Beament.  44 That's for Hansen.  That's when he started at pole  45 camp, cedar poles.  And in later years, in -- in mid  46 '35, later years --  4 7 THE COURT:  In mid '75? 3327  1 THE WITNESS:   Yes.  My father took over the pole camp, taking  2 out poles.  3 MS. MANDELL:  4 Q   Was that mid -- I'm sorry, let me get the year.  5 A  Mid '35.  6 MS. MANDELL:  Mid '35.  7 THE COURT:  Oh, thank you.  8 THE WITNESS:  They were taking out poles pret near every winter.  9 Sometimes in summer, not all the time.  Now, why  10 they take out poles in winter is they haul the poles  11 across the river on the ice with team of horses.  I  12 did that too myself in later years, in the late  13 50's.  My last time in there was taken out poles  14 there for Bell Pole in the summer of '61, my last  15 year.  Never been back there since.  16 MS. MANDELL:  17 Q   Do you today work with the Moricetown Indian Band on  18 the logging which the band is doing?  19 A   Yes.  20 THE COURT:  I'm sorry, I didn't hear that question.  21 MS. MANDELL:  The question was whether today he is employed by  22 the Moricetown Indian Band with their logging?  2 3 THE COURT:  Thank you.  24 MS. MANDELL:  25 Q   I'd like to canvass with you now some of the ways that  26 the Wet'suwet'en conserve the animals which they  27 harvest.  And you've mentioned quite a number of  28 different ways in your evidence already, but if I  29 could direct your attention now to moose, and  30 probably earlier the same rule would apply with  31 caribou.  Is there any way that the Wet'suwet'en --  32 are there any practices which the Wet'suwet'en teach  33 to their hunters which you yourself have practised  34 where the colour of the animal is used to identify  35 which animal ought to be shot?  36 A  My father taught us -- taught me that any time of  37 year, camping season, hunting season, you'll notice  38 that there's one dark moose that's standing there.  39 He says that's a good moose.  It's not calfing.  40 There was one grey moose in spring times, very grey,  41 that's calfing or will have a calf.  That dark moose  42 I'm talking about has got no horn and dark.  That's  43 dry cow we call him.  Same thing goes with bull  44 moose.  Bull moose, we call them Hadaa.  And another  45 thing they taught us when we were hunting, make sure  46 it's a moose before you shoot it, deer, bear.  Said  47 never shoot through a leaf or else you'll shoot 3328  1 somebody.  2 THE TRANSLATOR:  Hadaa, H-a-d-a-a.  3 MS. MANDELL:  4 Q   Do the beaver and marten return to the same spot year  5 after year?  6 A   Trapping them, no, not every -- if you — if we trap  7 for beaver one pond, next year we move out.  8 Q   Okay.  I want to ask you the question again.  Do -- do  9 the beaver and the marten, did they themselves stay  10 in the same spot every year?  11 A   Yes.  12 Q   And so now you've told us that the Wet'suwet'en then  13 trap in a way that you move out every year and don't  14 trap in the same place?  Is that what you --  15 A   Yes.  16 Q   — said?  17 A   Yes.  18 Q   How do you know -- how do the Wet'suwet'en keep track  19 of who is trapping beaver or marten each year in the  20 particular spot that they are in order to know to  21 move out the following year?  22 A   Okay.  Right now Billy's trapping that area.  He'll  23 tell us where he trapped.  He trapped on topside  24 before Christmas.  Dan moved him down by the new  25 cabin.  That's where he's staying now.  26 Q   This is on Namox's territory?  27 A   Namox's territory, yes.  28 Q   And what authority does Dan Michell have to move Billy  29 from the area where he was trapping last year?  30 A   Presently Dan holds a government registered trapline,  31 and also he has authority to look after the  32 territory because the traditional caretaker, Lucy,  33 who is Namox, is -- is too old to be out there  34 taking care of it.  35 Q   Is the practice of the Wet'suwet'en hunters and  36 trappers to talk among themselves to explain where  37 they've trapped marten and beaver common among all  38 of the Wet'suwet'en who are trapping and hunting in  39 their territories?  40 A   Yes.  41 Q   And is the authority of the chief or the caretaker to  42 tell the hunters and trappers where they can trap,  43 is that common to the Wet'suwet'en in their  44 territories?  45 A   Yes.  46 Q   Are there any common Wet'suwet'en practices with  47 respect to the conservation of the beaver apart from 3329  1 the one that you've just described to us?  2 A   I was taught by my father that beaver trapping -- we  3 see a small beaver house, say about two, three feet  4 high, little over, something like that.  He said  5 there's only two in there, so leave them there,  6 don't kill them.  There's just two.  Okay.  Bigger  7 house, little bigger house, medium-size house, maybe  8 there would be about six in there.  Just get two in  9 there, two big ones, and never to set trap right by  10 the beaver house.  If you set trap right by that  11 beaver house, you catch them small ones, so you have  12 to set the trap way out.  And bigger house, there's  13 about 10 or 12 in there.  Then you kill about six in  14 that beaver house.  That's how -- that's how we look  15 after them.  Our ancestors, they been doing that for  16 years.  My father's father teach them that, he  17 teached me, now I'm going to teach my sons.  18 Q   Can you estimate what portion of your diet today is  19 comprised of food which you get from the territories  20 or from the rivers at Moricetown, bush food?  21 A  My diet would be right now around in Moricetown, it  22 would be some dry salmon, salt salmon, canned  23 salmon.  Sometimes I eat seafood which we trade with  24 the Tsimshian people.  Tsimshian.  25 Q   And is your diet also comprised of moose and deer and  26 beaver and bear meat?  27 A  Moose, deer, bear, beaver.  28 Q   And is it comprised also of berries and wild  29 vegetables?  30 A   Berries, yes.  31 Q   And if you were to say how much of your diet is bush  32 food as opposed to store-bought food, what would you  33 today say would be the approximate balance between  34 the two types of food?  35 A  Well, I'd eat right now bush food three times a week.  36 T-bone steak maybe once a week, white man's steak.  37 THE COURT:  I'm sorry.  38 MS. MANDELL:  A white man's steak about once a week.  39 THE COURT:  Yes.  He said I eat bush food how many days?  40 MS. MANDELL:  About three times a week.  41 THE COURT:  Three times a week.  42 MS. MANDELL:  43 Q   When you're on the territories, is the percentage of  44 bush food you eat there higher?  45 A   Oh, yes, way higher.  I eat them every day when I'm  46 trapping.  47 Q   Okay.  Is that common among the Wet'suwet'en trappers? 3330  1 A   Yes.  2 Q   And would you estimate whether or not the amount of  3 bush food that you eat right now in Moricetown, is  4 that common among the Wet'suwet'en?  5 A   That's common.  6 Q   Has there been times in your life when you've eaten  7 more bush food living in Moricetown than what you do  8 today?  9 A   I remember when we was kids in the hungry 30's we  10 lived on bush food seven days a week.  That was --  11 at that time there was hardly any jobs around.  12 Q   I'd like to touch upon the contributions which you  13 make to the feast.  When your -- when the Tsayu clan  14 hosts a feast, do you contribute to that feast?  15 A   Yes.  16 Q   And in what way do you contribute?  17 A   In money, and I buy some apple, sugar or whatever to  18 help.  I remember one -- one time Emma had a feast,  19 late Alec Tiljoe's feast.  Me and my dad, we always  2 0 contributed money.  We'd buy sugar.  Late Namox we  21 did the same.  Even right today we doing the same  22 thing.  Even right now, tonight, tonight's feast at  23 Moricetown.  Late Johnny Mack is our clan, my clan.  24 I left hundred dollars there, box of apple.  We all  25 do that.  That's going on always.  26 Q   When Alfred Namox and Alec Tiljoe passed on, did you  27 for those feasts also contribute meat from Namox's  28 territory?  29 A   Yes.  30 Q   If your wife's clan hosts a feast, do you also  31 contribute to that?  32 A   Yes, of course.  I'm Andumenuk.  We always contribute  33 money to help them out.  This last feast, that  34 little girl that died here, that was my wife's clan,  35 Laksilyu.  My wife put up money.  36 Q   This was the feast held in Moricetown last week?  37 A   Last Saturday, yeah.  38 MS. MANDELL:  We'll just get the spelling.  39 THE TRANSLATOR:  It's 200.  4 0 MS. MANDELL:  41 Q   Sylvester Williams was not from your clan; is that  42 correct?  43 A   No.  44 Q   Will you contribute to Sylvester Williams' headstone  45 feast?  46 A   I'm going to, yes.  47 Q   And are you going to hunt and trap for that feast? 1  A  2  Q  3  4  A  5  6  7  8  9  Q  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  A  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  Q  27  A  28  Q  29  30  31  32  33  A  34  Q  35  36  A  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  3331  I'm going to go trapping Gosnell River for that feast.  Now, why would you contribute to Sylvester Williams'  feast?  Because he -- I trapped with him in that area lots.  Like I say, I -- I was with him for over 40 years.  And -- and I also trapped with Warner William.  That's his territory.  I told Warner already that I'm  going out there, that is if I'm still alive.  You look like you've got lots in you.  Is it common  among the Wet'suwet'en for -- for trappers and  hunters who have hunted and trapped together all  their lives to contribute to the funeral and  headstone feasts of their -- of their fellow -- of  their friends even if they may not be from the same  clan?  In -- in the late 60's Christine Holland gave  permission for me to hunt and trap in their  territory, and all the years in the past that I have  trapped and hunted with Sylvester within that  territory.  So that is -- and I have been given  permission by this lady, and that is why I am going  to go and go trapping in that territory again to  help out at the feast, the headstone feast of  Sylvester William.  And that was -- Sylvester  William is Warner William's father.  Um hum.  And Warner William is caretaker of that territory now.  I'd like to move on to a discussion of the -- your and  other Wet'suwet'en people's belief in the spirits,  in the spiritual relationship to the territory.  Do  you believe that your spirit and the spirit of your  ancestors belong to a particular territory?  Yes.  Can you explain to the -- can you explain your belief  in this regard?  Right now every time I go up on Namox territory where  we been, where we trap, me and my father, every time  I set where he had his traps set I remember him.  It's just like he's still with me right today when  I'm setting that trap.  Even we staying in a camp  where we used to camp, me and my father, seems like  he's with me all the time.  All the things he  teached me through that territory, how to trap, how  to hunt, all that comes back to me.  Even our  grandfather, if I go the Namox lower part, I  remember what he says.  He always telling us stories  by the campfire at night.  Not only that one night 3332  1 they teach me this -- all this territory, lakes,  2 peaks, boundaries, they keep telling us year after  3 year.  If -- if I don't remember that mountain, I'd  4 ask them again to make sure.  Their spirit -- yes,  5 what our ancestors have spoken about in the past and  6 what I believe is that our ancestors are  7 reincarnated or reborn and they come back to the  8 territory, and that is what I believe.  9 Q   Is this belief that your ancestors are reincarnated  10 and come back to the territory, is that a belief  11 shared amongst the other Wet'suwet'en people?  12 A  All the Wet'suwet'en.  13 Q   And according to your belief, would your ancestors  14 then be reincarnated back into the same house?  15 A   Yes.  16 Q   And when you're out on the territory, are there any  17 signs that you identify where your ancestors are  18 speaking to you, and do you feed your ancestors'  19 spirits in any way while you're on the territory?  20 A   I get a very eerie feeling when you ask me this  21 question because when you're out in the territory,  22 if there should be -- if we have a campfire, if  23 there should be a whistling sound or — or like a  24 whistling sound, that is when the ancestors that  25 have died and gone before you are trying to  2 6 communicate with you.  So at that time you try to  27 please them by giving them food, whatever is  28 available, like smoked salmon or something, and you  29 feed it to -- you try to please them by feeding it  30 to the fire.  And these -- this has been a  31 well-known exercise amongst the Wet'suwet'en which  32 has been told to us by our grandfathers and our  33 grandfathers before them and our ancestors.  34 Q   Do you believe that the animals within the territories  35 also have spirits?  36 A   Yes.  37 Q   And according to the Wet'suwet'en belief, are those  38 spirits of the animals connected to the human  39 people?  40 A   Yes.  Well, the animal relationship to human life is  41 sort of a communication.  Like they can feel what is  42 going to happen to you.  For example, when my father  43 was going to die or before his death, I went  44 hunting, and I was unsuccessful.  A deer was  45 standing almost right in front of me, and I was  46 unable to shoot it because I missed it, and that to  47 me is a message to me from the animal telling me 3333  1 something is going to happen.  And after my father's  2 death, I didn't have any problems shooting the moose  3 after that.  4 Q   Is it a commonly shared belief among the Wet'suwet'en  5 that the animals cannot be shot prior to the death  6 of somebody close in the family of the hunter?  7 A  Amongst the Wet'suwet'en is what -- they have a name  8 for it called G'ii k'a'as niit'ayh.  That is -- and  9 when you're unsuccessful, it -- not only is it just  10 certain animals that this can happen with.  It can  11 happen with any animals when you're hunting.  12 Another example is when my father had experienced  13 something like that in the past when he was trapping  14 beaver.  He trapped a beaver all right, but he  15 pulled the arm off, and now when I go trapping  16 beaver or hunting beaver, I sometimes come across  17 beaver with no arm, and that is what you call G'ii  18 k'a'as niit'ayh.  19 THE TRANSLATOR:  G'ii k'a'as niit'ayh, G-'-i-i k-'a-'-a-s  20 n-i-i-t-'-a-y-h.  21 THE COURT:  Was that G-i-i-k?  22 THE WITNESS:  G-'-i-i-k.  23 THE COURT:  Yes.  Thank you.  24 MS. MANDELL:  Do you and other Wet'suwet'en believe that plants have  spirits?  Cass?  Plants?  Plant, yes.  And are the spirits of the plants also connected to  human beings?  Yes.  And can you give us any example that you're aware of  to -- to help to explain how the spirit of the plant  is connected to the spirit of the human being?  There is one plant called Cun yee.  That gives you  luck.  Sometimes they use as medicine.  When you  first take it out, you have to talk to it so it can  give you luck.  Take it out -- after you take it  out -- it's the roots, it's the root we're after.  Cun yee.  I got one here.  Do you want to see it?  Sure.  That's my lucky charm.  You guys like to buy a lucky  charm in store.  May I take it out?  That's what you  call Cun yee.  I always carry it, trapping, bingo  game.  LL:  My lord, would you like to see it?  25  Q  26  27  A  28  Q  29  A  30  Q  31  32  A  33  Q  34  35  36  A  37  38  39  40  41  42  Q  43  A  44  45  46  4 7 MS.  MAN] 1  THE  COURT:  2  THE  WITNESS  3  THE  COURT:  4  THE  WITNESS  5  THE  COURT:  6  THE  WITNESS  7  8  MS.  MANDELL  3334  Thank you.  :  Always use that for cleaning rifles too.  This is a root, is it?  :  That's a root of that Cun yee.  Thank you.  :  It's got a name for it in white.  I don't know.  I  forgot the name for it in white man.  :  George, do you know the name?  9 THE INTERPRETER:  Indian Hellabore.  10 THE COURT:  I'm sorry, I didn't hear.  11 MS. MANDELL:  12 Q   It's Hellabore.  13 Where within the territories is it possible to get  14 that root?  15 A  Any mountains.  Not right on the mountain.  There's  16 lots right on the mountain, but maybe half ways up  17 the mountain.  18 Q   And if you don't talk to the plant before you take the  19 root, what do the Wet'suwet'en believe will happen?  20 A  My father told me that give you bad lack when you take  21 that plant out, you have bad weather.  Or if you  22 talk to that plant good -- the root to this plant is  23 really tough to take out.  So when you're taking it  24 out, when you're digging it out, the roots are  25 really tough, and if you talk nice to it, it comes  26 out with no -- very easily.  And when you -- after  27 you take it out, you take the -- the plant leaves,  28 and you also talk nice to that one, and then you put  29 the leaf back in, this leaf and the stem back in  30 where the root was.  31 Q   Is it your belief and the belief of other Wet'suwet'en  32 that you have to take care of the territory?  33 A   Yes.  34 THE COURT:  I'm sorry, before you get into that, I never did get  35 the name of this plant.  36 THE TRANSLATOR:  Cun yee, C-'-u-n y-e-e.  37 THE COURT:  Thank you.  Perhaps you could put the question  38 again, Ms. Mandell.  39 MS. MANDELL:  Is it your belief and the belief of other Wet'suwet'en  that you have an obligation to take care of the  territories?  Yes.  And why do you have that obligation?  Yes, it is our responsibility to take care of the  territories because it has been handed down from  generation to generation, and we are — we have been  40  Q  41  42  43  A  44  Q  45  A  46  47 3335  1 taught to take care of the territories.  For  2 instance, in our territory my father had said, "Son,  3 you may be the one to take care of this territory,"  4 so -- and that is why they teach us all the  5 landmarks, mountains, hills, and the boundaries, so  6 we would be the future caretakers of our  7 territories.  8 Q   And as caretakers of your territories what do you  9 understand your obligations to be?  10 A   Yes, our responsibility within the territory is as  11 caretakers.  Our -- my father had told me that any  12 time when you're hunting or trapping you do not take  13 everything, you only take what you need, like beaver  14 and marten.  You only take what you can -- what you  15 can use.  And the same goes with the big game.  Some  16 time back there used to be lots of moose, moose was  17 plentiful, but now there's hardly any around.  18 MS. MANDELL:  My lord, I have one other area to canvass.  19 Perhaps this is an appropriate time to break.  20 THE COURT:  All right.  Good.  2:00 o'clock, please.  21 THE REGISTRAR:  Order in court.  Court will adjourn until 2:00.  22  2 3 (PROCEEDINGS ADJOURNED AT 12:27 P.M.)  24  25 I hereby certify the foregoing to be  26 a true and accurate transcript of the  27 proceedings herein to the best of my  28 skill and ability.  29  30  31  32 Leanna Smith  33 Official Reporter  34 United Reporting Service Ltd.  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47 3336  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47 3336  1 (PROCEEDINGS RESUMED PURSUANT TO A LUNCHEON ADJOURNMENT  2 AT 2 : 0 0 P . M. )  3  4 THE REGISTRAR:  Order in court.  Recalling Delgamuukw and Her  5 Majesty the Queen at bar, my lord.  6  7 EXAMINATION IN CHIEF CONTINUED BY MS. MANDELL:  8 Q    My lord, a few questions before I move into the last  9 area.  Before we were -- we had taken the lunch  10 break, we were talking about the spiritual  11 relationship of you and the Wet'suwet'en to the  12 territory and you were talking about your role as a  13 caretaker.  Do the Wet'suwet'en, and do you  14 understand that your role as caretaker carries  15 obligations both to the past and to the future  16 generations?  17 A    Our ancestors and grandfathers have taught us to  18 take care of the territories so we can teach that to  19 our children and grandchildren for their future use.  20 Q    According to the teachings that you have been taught  21 from your father and from your grandfather, where do  22 you understand that the Wet'suwet'en originated  2 3 from?  24 A    Yes.  The information that our great, great, great  25 grandparents had handed down from generation to  26 generation.  They all -- all resided in the same  27 area and then we today still live in the same  2 8 territory.  We never came from anywhere but where we  29 are today.  30 Q    When you say it is the territory where we are today,  31 which territory is it that you are referring to?  32 A    Wet'suwet'en territory.  33 Q    Could the witness be shown tab 21, please?  I  34 neglected to put this picture to you when we were  35 discussing the cabins, and I wonder whether or not  36 at this time could you identify -- identify the  37 place shown in the picture?  38 Q    I took this picture at Poplar Lake, Tac'ets'ol'een,  39 and there is two elders standing here, Sylvester  40 William -- Late Sylvester William and Lucy William  41 and they are standing there on a big floating cabin;  42 it is on a big ramp.  That's where this cabin is  4 3 now.  44 Q    And to your knowledge, first of all had you ever  45 stayed there in that cabin with Sylvester?  46 A    I stayed there few times with Sylvester.  47 Q    And this picture, it looks like from the writing on 3337  1 the bottom of the picture it says May 1980.  Did you  2 put that writing there?  3 A    Yeah.  4 Q    And —  5 A    That's the same time I took this picture.  I was  6 beaver trapping at that time.  7 Q    You were beaver trapping at that time?  8 A    Yes.  9 Q    And do you know today what's become of that cabin?  10 A    That's that cabin that burnt with all Sylvester's  11 belongings.  He had a stove in there, cooking  12 outfits, axe.  They got it locked up.  He use that  13 every year.  14 Q    And did you have any possessions in the cabin when  15 it burnt?  16 A    No.  17 Q    Do you know who burnt the cabin?  18 A    No.  19 Q    And what year do you know that it burnt down?  20 A    Two years ago.  21 MS. MANDELL:  I'd ask that the witness be shown Exhibit — oh,  22 perhaps we can first mark that as an exhibit.  23 THE COURT:  Yes, 221.  24 THE REGISTRAR:  Yes, my lord, 221 tab 21.  25  26 (EXHIBIT 221 tab 21 - PHOTOGRAPH)  27  2 8 MS. MANDELL:  29 Q    Could the witness be shown Exhibit 184, the map  30 of -- there it is, the sketch map of Namox?  I'd  31 like to last turn your attention to the area of  32 damages which to your mind has occurred in the Namox  33 territory and I would ask you first whether or not  34 you are aware if there's been clear-cut logging done  35 in the Namox territory?  36 A   All this was Neel dzii teezdlii.  All clear cut  37 logging all the way up to this end here and it is  38 just very few greens standing timber in between  39 those.  40 Q    Does the clear-cut -- where does it start?  41 A    It starts from this little lake here.  42 Q    Okay.  43 A   And there is still some clear cut along this road  44 too.  45 Q    Okay.  46 A   All the way up there is patches.  This one all clear  47 cut.  Only place they left is steep hill down here 3338  1 this side, they left that, and from here, it's all  2 clear cut and there's not a patch of timber.  Small  3 patches of timber left.  Right now just wonder they  4 logging this area here.  5 Q    My lord, the witness has identified the portion of  6 the territory to the extreme south.  The entire area  7 south of the river system which flows through Sam  8 Goosley Lake to Allan Creek and Neenlii wek'ut, and  9 I am going to mark that area as an area he's  10 identified as places where there is clear-cut  11 logging.  12 A    This winter they are working this area here.  13 Q    And he's identified a number of places along the  14 area which have been left still timber standing and  15 I am going to put -- identify for the record that  16 there is a strip which he's identified from the  17 place which we have marked on the boundary as Tsee  18 Delk'en due north to the river and also another  19 place roughly --  20 A    Yes, it is in patches all along here between the  21 blocks.  22 Q    And patches between the blocks from Tsee Delk'en to  23 roughly where we have got the number one trail.  Are  24 there any other portions of Namox's territory which  25 you can identify have been clear-cut logged?  26 A    They have been logging this area here starting from  27 this cabins.  Some clear-cut logging along the road  28 here, patches here, and one long clear-cut area  29 right along here.  30 Q    All right.  It's going to be impossible to identify  31 the entire area, but I am going to put the words  32 "clear-cut logging" in the area that the witness has  33 identified with his fingers and it's, my lord,  34 roughly between cabin number 3 and in the area in  35 and around cabin number 2.  36 A   And there is some clear-cut logging around -- on all  37 trapline, trapline dotted lines here.  38 Q    And I am going to extend that to encompass the  39 trapline of the witness as he's identified it  40 heading due east.  Are there any other places?  41 A    Right along where that Nee'del is some logging there  42 too, the east side of Nee' del.  43 Q    Are there any other places?  44 A    There is a mine near -- mining road goes down  45 into -- goes like this and then goes down to this  46 creek.  There is a road goes -- goes — it will be  47 south side this little lake.  That's Tsee zuul 3339  1 ts'ak.  A road now goes right down here, and I don't  2 know where that road goes.  There is logging around  3 this area too.  4 Q    Are those the main areas?  5 A    Yeah, that's the main area and there is another one  6 there.  Right at the ponds Neenlii wek'ut, a bridge  7 across there, and they are logging up this area.  8 That started last year.  9 Q    Okay.  10 A    That's all I remember.  11 Q    I've identified those areas in very rough terms with  12 the words "clear-cut logging".  13 Can you describe what the effect on the trapping  14 of marten has been to -- with the clear-cut logging  15 to your best knowledge?  16 A    In some places you will see clear cuts -- big  17 patches, they are about two mile long.  There is a  18 family of marten there.  There is different species.  19 Not only that, squirrels, weasel, grouse, rabbits.  20 When they clear cut that area and they leave it for  21 year, and then they burn it.  Them squirrels, I see  22 them right where clear cut, they always hang around  23 where they are and the poor things, they burn them  24 too.  And marten, the same thing.  They got dens.  I  25 guess that's where -- I guess that's where one  26 family lives.  I know one place and this area,  27 marten den.  I found that one I was going out on  2 8 marten.  2 9 Q    What happened to the marten den?  30 A    Well, that certain marten den, shoot them.  So this  31 all the places surrounding there, you see a lot of  32 fox.  They have dens.  That's where keep their  33 young.  Same thing with marten.  34 Q    And what's the effect of the logging on the fox and  35 the marten and their dens?  36 A    Well, the dens will be burnt out.  37 Q    Okay.  Have -- to your knowledge have the animal  38 trails been interfered with by the logging?  39 A    Well, all the animal trails will be all destroyed.  40 Even now trapline in our line -- okay.  I got this  41 place, that's our trapline.  If they log out this  42 area, you'll never see any more -- no more blazes.  43 It is all clear cuts.  44 Q    Have there been any salt licks to your knowledge  45 interfered with by the logging?  46 A    Salt licks, some places, no, you got bulldozers they  47 got now.  They are the ones that just wherever a 3340  1 bulldozer are, they are cutting big machineries now  2 and faller bunchers.  They are heavy machinery.  3 They are the ones who are spoiling everything.  4 Q    As a result of the logging, has there been logging  5 roads brought into Namox's territories?  6 A    Forestry have an access road along the Sam Goosley  7 area and the roads are put in there to access  8 logging areas and also there is a road in there to  9 the mine and there is roads branching off on that  10 for logging.  11 Q    And have the placement of the roads in your  12 territory contributed to sports hunters coming into  13 the Namox territory to your knowledge?  14 A    Right now there is a road right around our territory  15 right down the middle and comes out Buck Flat, Buck  16 River.  In fall time -- fall season open, you go up  17 that road and you will see sports hunters -- pretty  18 near every curve you turn, there is a sports hunter  19 there.  20 Q    From what you have been able to observe, have the  21 presence of sports hunters had any effect on the  22 beaver?  23 A    In that top part, there is a road right along there.  24 There is some beaver dams right along the road.  25 Some poachers, they are -- we don't know who, they  26 would be the sports hunters or somebody else but  27 right now there is a road right through where the  28 beavers are and there is hardly any beavers there  29 now.  So is the moose, this top part when I was  30 trapping there, 47.  You will see about 20 moose out  31 there in the open, out in the meadow, and now you  32 have to look for it.  33 Q    Okay.  When you are talking about the top half, you  34 are talking about the northern part of the  35 territory?  36 A    Northern part of our boundary, yeah.  37 MS. MANDELL:  Could the witness be shown tabs 37 and 38 which I  38 believe have been marked as exhibits?  Yes, it is  39 Exhibits 187 and 186.  40 THE REGISTRAR:  38 hasn't been marked.  41 THE COURT:  Yes, they are both marked, 186 and 187 respectively.  42 MS. MANDELL:  Tabs — I am sorry, it is at tab 36 and 37 and 38.  43 Those three pictures I think strung together would  44 make a single ridge.  Am I right about that?  Yes.  45 THE COURT:  I think they overlap a bit.  4 6 MS. MANDELL:  47 Q    A little bit.  Perhaps we will start with tab 36. 1  2  3  4  5  6  A  7  8  9  10  Q  11  12  A  13  14  Q  15  16  17  A  18  Q  19  A  20  Q  21  22  23  24  A  25  26  27  28  29  Q  30  31  32  33  A  34 MS.  MANDELL  35  36 THE  COURT:  37 MS.  MANDELL  38  Q  39  40  A  41  Q  42  43  A  44  Q  45  A  46  Q  47  3341  Do you know where this location -- you have  identified the location.  Is the photograph here,  does that exhibit represent what the — can you  identify the clear-cut logging patches in the  photograph?  This clear-cut logging Tsee Delk'en.  This area  here, it will be right along here.  That's going  Tsee Delk'en is right here, going this way.  That  will be going south.  Okay.  And tab 37, Exhibit 186, is that an extension  of the same --  That's the same area but you're further north this  time.  That's Tsee Delk'en right there.  Can you estimate by looking at the two photographs  how much area has been encompassed by that clear-cut  logging patch?  From here, it's -- oh, I'd say about over two miles.  Okay.  I don't know about miles, but I estimate that.  And you've identified that in the southern most part  of the territory.  Is this the part of the territory  where you and others have been successful in  trapping the marten with the thicker furs?  Yes, in this area here.  In this area, that's Namox,  they all got their traplines up.  Alec Tiljoe has  his cabin here.  He got his trapline here.  That's  right through that clear-cut area.  Namox have his  trapline up this way.  Now, you had identified earlier a mine and you put  your finger on a place which is in the centre of  Namox's territory, and appears to be marked on the  base mat?  Mine is right there, Equity Mine.  Equity.  :  Mark it with an X which would be Equity Mine, and  I will circle it.  Thank you.  Do you know when Equity Mine came into the  territory?  Sorry?  Do you know when Equity Mine came into the  territory?  I wouldn't know exact year but it was in the 60's.  In the 60's?  Late 60's, somewhere around there.  And as a result of the placement of the mine and in  the territory, did you or your family suffer any 3342  1 damages as a result of the loss to you of blazes or  2 trails for your own traplines?  3 A    I know east side of that mine, I lost lot of traps  4 through that area.  The mining company had to  5 heliport all along that site here, that's in the  6 east side of that mine.  7 THE COURT:  Is it an open-pit mine or underground?  8 THE WITNESS:  What I was saying is that they got a heliport all  9 along that trapline mine.  That's where I lost a lot  10 of traps.  I couldn't follow my blaze.  There is a  11 lot of blazes.  Not only the miners; forestries.  12 They are making blazes for the timber to be cut out.  13 MS. MANDELL:  14 Q    Is it an open-pit mine or is it an underground mine?  15 A    Open-pit mine.  16 MR. MACKENZIE:  Excuse me, my lord.  This line of questioning  17 has been dealt with I think in what will be  18 discussed on having been dealt with in respect to  19 the CNR, I understand, last week and I take it this  20 will be discussed on Friday according to Mr. Rush  21 when we come to consider the relevance of Mr.  22 Plant's -- or the -- Mr. Plant's objection to  23 damages being alleged as a result of third parties.  24 THE COURT:  All right, thank you.  25 MS. MANDELL:  26 Q    With respect to the traps which you lost when the  27 blazes and the heliport was put into the territory,  28 could you estimate how many traps that was?  29 A    On this land alone, I had 13 dozen.  30 Q    And do you recall approximately when it was that you  31 identified that your traps had been lost and --  32 A    Me and my wife went over there -- went up this area  33 in 1976 and I figured I was going to get all the  34 traps out and start walking from the south side.  At  35 that time I had a road up in that area so be closer  36 for me to go into it.  I only found 29 traps.  37 Q    I am going to now show you tab 35.  Can you identify  38 that photograph?  39 A    Yes.  This is a tailing pond on that mine, Equity  40 Mine.  It is on the north side of that mine anyway.  41 Q    Okay.  42 A   And this runs into Foxy Creek.  43 MS. MANDELL:  I ask that that be marked as the next exhibit?  44 THE REGISTRAR:  222 tab 25.  45  46 (EXHIBIT 222 tab 25 - PHOTOGRAPH)  47 1  MS.  MANDELL  2  Q  3  4  5  A  6  7  8  9  10  11  Q  12  13  A  14  15  16  Q  17  18  19  20  A  21  22  23  24  25  MS.  MANDELL  26  THE  COURT:  27  THE  WITNESS  28  THE  COURT:  29  MS.  MANDELL  30  Q  31  32  33  34  A  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  MS.  MANDELL  43  44  45  46  47  3343  And to your knowledge has this tailing pond or any  of the outflow from Equity Mine caused pollution to  the creeks that are in the area?  At one time back up into other creek that runs  into -- that's north there, okay.  There is a creek  runs south from this mine.  That mine is right on  the ridge and the -- they polluted that creek of  ours on the outside where the cabin is.  That was, I  think it was, in '82 at that time.  And you are pointing to the cabin placed at number  3?  Yeah.  And that time they blocked it off just about  half mile from our cabin, they blocked it off, and  made a dam there with tailing pond.  Prior to 1983, when that dam was there made, had you  or others that you know of used that creek which  moved into the cabin area for drinking water or for  washing?  At that time we get our water from this creek here.  We used to use this creek but even now we don't  trust that.  There is a creek run into this main  creek in here.  Always use that creek that runs out  from south-east.  :  Okay.  There is a mill at the mine site, is there?  :  Yes, a mill at the mine site.  Thank you.  I am going to now ask you to look at Caspit's  territory, Exhibit 211.  Are you aware of whether  there has been clear-cut logging done on Caspit's  territory?  All along the bottom side you see this access road  here.  It is access road as a Forestry access road.  Comes right up to here.  There is some clear cut in  this area all along there road up to here and then  in patches right up to here, right on top of the  hill.  There is just patches there, ready to be cut.  That's P.I.R. log in that area, got a tree farm  licence on that area.  :  My lord, I have just indicated where the witness  has pointed to the general area by the words  "clear-cut logging" and it turns the bend, you can  see the access road, goes along the western part of  the territory and the logging the witness has  indicated turns the bend and moves along the 1  2  3  4  THE  COURT:  5  MS.  MANDELL  6  Q  7  8  A  9  Q  10  11  12  13  14  A  15  16  17  18  Q  19  20  21  22  23  A  24  25  Q  26  A  27  28  29  THE  COURT:  30  THE  WITNESS  31  MS.  MANDELL  32  Q  33  A  34  THE  COURT:  35  THE  WITNESS  36  THE  COURT:  37  THE  WITNESS  38  THE  COURT:  39  THE  WITNESS  40  MS.  MANDELL  41  Q  42  43  44  45  A  46  Q  47  A  3344  southern portion of the territory roughly  paralleling the line we have now identified for  marten.  Yes.  Is there any other places within Caspit's territory  to your knowledge where there is clear-cut logging?  No.  That's the only area.  All right.  And you had earlier identified that  there was good moose, deer and beaver and -- I am  sorry, and bear, in this area.  Has the logging to  your knowledge affected the ability to harvest those  animals?  Below this road, they have -- Chapman had a mill up  in this area or Spence, I forgot which.  It did  selective logging.  Now it's still standing.  That's  all I know.  I don't know though whether or not you have answered  my question and that is whether to your knowledge  the clear-cut logging that's been done in Caspit's  area has made it harder for you or others to harvest  the moose, the deer or the bear there?  Yes, yes.  Because there is always -- it is good  moose country always in this area here.  Is there still good moose country there?  Right now, you have to go -- there is hardly any  moose around there now.  This where -- this has been  cut around '68.  It was clear cut in 1968?  :  Yes.  No, replant it at 1968.  Replanted in 1968?  We replanted in 1968.  How is it doing after 20 years?  Is it green?  :  They are about five, six feet.  What species?  :  Spruce, but there is some pine growing into it.  What was there before?  :  Balsam, mostly balsam and spruce before.  In any of the areas which you have described which  have been clear cut either on Caspit or on Namox's  territory, do you know whether or not the wolverine  have now moved into those territories?  I don't see them anymore on there.  You don't see them anymore?  No. 3345  1 MS. MANDELL:  I have got no further questions of this witness.  2 THE COURT:  All right, thank you.  Mr. Mackenzie or Ms.  3 Koenigsberg?  Thank you.  4 MR. MACKENZIE:  5 Thank you, my lord.  I have some document books to  6 hand up to your lordship and the other counsel.  7 Handing up for the court and for your lordship.  8 THE COURT:  Thank you.  9 MR. MACKENZIE:  I also take the opportunity to hand up some  10 photograph books, my lord.  These are entitled List  11 of Photographs Relating to Henry Alfred, Alfred  12 Mitchell and Dan Michell but, of course, I will be  13 using them only for Mr. Mitchell's examination.  14 THE COURT:  Thank you.  15 MR. MACKENZIE:  Some of these are coloured photocopies, my lord.  16 THE COURT:  Camera is working better this time, Mr. Mackenzie.  17  18 CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR. MACKENZIE:  19 Q    Now, Mr. Mitchell, you told his lordship on Friday  20 that your mother was Mary Muldoe; is that correct?  21 A    Yes.  22 Q    She was a Gitksan lady?  23 A    Gitksan.  24 Q    Yes.  And your father was Big Tommy Michell?  25 A    Big Tommy Mitchell.  26 Q    He was a Wet'suwet'en?  27 A    Wet'suwet'en.  28 Q    And you are a member of the Gitksan House?  29 A    Yes.  30 Q    You told us on Friday that you were a member of the  31 House of Wiiseeks?  32 A    Wiiseeks, yes.  33 Q    In your affidavit which is Exhibit 185 at tab 1 of  34 the document book, you say that you are a member of  35 the House of Gitludahl; is that correct?  36 A    Who?  37 Q    Gitludahl?  38 A    Yes, I just know that I belong in that House.  39 Q    Well, Mr. Mitchell, which House do you belong to,  40 Wiiseeks or Gitludahl?  41 A    Wiiseeks.  42 Q    Mr. Mitchell, then your affidavit is incorrect?  43 A    I was too young to remember but when Wiiseeks -- my  44 Uncle Pete, I work with him whenever he put up a  45 feast.  I don't -- I don't live with him.  I was  46 raised with my father in Wet'suwet'en area and I  47 don't know too much about that area. 1  Q  2  3  4  A  5  Q  6  7  A  8  Q  9  0  1  A  2  3346  So is it fair to say that the affidavit is incorrect  where it says you are a member of the House of  Gitludahl?  I don't remember saying Gitludahl or Gitludahl.  I see.  Could we put the affidavit before the  witness, please, Exhibit 185, tab 1?  Gitludahl.  This is paragraph 2 on page 1 of the affidavit,  Exhibit 185.  You say that you are a member of the  House of Gitludahl.  Do you see that?  Oh, yeah.  Yes, that could be.  That is the name of  the House of Wiiseeks.  Gitludahl, Gitludahl.  13 THE INTERPRETER:  Gitludahl.  14 THE WITNESS:  And Gitludahl is name of the House.  15 MR. MACKENZIE:  Would you like to correct that affidavit to have it  read that, "I am a member of the House of Wiiseeks"?  Would that be correct?  That is what I am talking about.  I left that area  when I was about eight years old and I don't know  how the House is structured, and whenever there is a  death, they notify me and that is only time that I  am involved, when I have to contribute to the cause.  And so you didn't concern yourself about that  paragraph 2 when you signed the affidavit?  Well, I figured I am Wet'suwet'en.  I live, I raised  Wet'suwet'en.  I raised Wet'suwet'en since I was  eight years old.  And I have -- they say Txemsim got  a trapline there.  I didn't even go there because I  raised with my father, my grandfather and our -- in  Namox's territory.  Even in the village, I stayed  right in the village.  Only time I go to Kispiox is  in their feast, sometimes dance.  That's only time I  go in Kispiox.  So you don't know very much about Gitludahl, the  family or the territory; is that correct?  No.  Yes.  And you signed the affidavit because the  people who handed it to you said it was correct?  Well, they said that's my house and that's where I  signed.  And you believe what they said?  Well, that's my clan, Gisk'aast, and I believe what  they say.  Mr. Mitchell, when you said you don't know how the  House is structured and you're only involved when  there is a death, were you referring to the House of  16  Q  17  18  19  A  20  21  22  23  24  Q  25  26  A  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  Q  36  37  A  38  Q  39  40  A  41  42  Q  43  A  44  45 THE  COURT  46  47 1  2  THE  WITNESS  3  4  5  6  THE  COURT:  7  8  9  THE  WITNESS  10  THE  COURT:  11  12  THE  WITNESS  13  14  15  THE  COURT:  16  THE  WITNESS  17  MR.  MACKENZ  18  Q  19  A  20  Q  21  22  A  23  Q  24  A  25  Q  26  A  27  Q  28  29  30  A  31  Q  32  A  33  Q  34  Q  35  36  A  37  Q  38  39  A  40  Q  41  42  A  43  Q  44  45  A  46  Q  47  3347  Wiiseeks or the House of Gitludahl?  :  When my aunt died, Flossy, that's what I mean is  going in there, Kispiox area, to help with the  feast.  That's the only time and I am every involved  with that Gitksan.  But I don't know which House you mean, sir.  Which  House is it that you are only involved in when there  is a death?  :  That's Wiiseeks' House.  So when you said, "I left that area when I was  eight", you mean the area of Wiiseeks?  :  Well, I left the village of Kispiox.  That's where  my mother was from.  When my mother passed on, my  father took me back to Wet'suwet'en.  And brought you up in the House of Gitludahl?  :  Yes.  IE:  Well, Gitludahl is a Gitksan House, Mr. Mitchell?  Yes, Gitksan House.  And your father was a Wet'suwet'en in the Tsayu  Clan?  Tsayu.  That's the Beaver Clan; isn't it?  Beaver House, yes.  Your father is a member of the House of Namox?  Yes.  That's correct.  And your mother Mary Muldoe was a  member of, you are saying, the House of Wiiseeks,  correct?  Yes.  That was a Gitksan House, correct?  Gitksan.  I am sorry, Gitksan, yes.  Correct.  She was a member of the Gitksan House of  Wiiseeks; right?  Yes.  So you are a member of the Gitksan House of  Wiiseeks; right?  I am part G'itnee, I must be down there.  Because the house membership passes from mother to  her son; doesn't it?  Yes.  That's correct.  So you are not a member of the  House of Namox, are you?  No.  And you are not a member of the Wet'suwet'en Tsayu  or Beaver Clan, are you? 1  A  2  Q  3  4  5  A  6  Q  7  8  9  10  A  11  Q  12  13  A  14  Q  15  16  A  17  Q  18  19  A  20  21  Q  22  23  A  24  Q  25  A  26  27  Q  28  29  A  30  Q  31  32  A  33  Q  34  35  36  A  37  Q  38  39  40  A  41  Q  42  43  44  45  A  46  47  3348  No.  Now, the House of Wiiseeks does not appear in the  Statement of Claim in this lawsuit.  Does Wiiseeks  have a territory?  They got a territory, Gitksan territory.  Yes.  Now, you say in your evidence that Mr. Pete  Muldoe, your uncle, speaks for the House of  Gitludahl; is that right, your uncle is Pete Muldoe,  isn't he?  Yes.  And his chief's name is Gitludahl, isn't it, your  uncle's chief's name is Gitludahl, isn't it?  Yes.  And he speaks for the House of Gitludahl, doesn't  he?  Yes.  Yes.  Now, Mr. Mitchell, can you tell me where  Wiiseeks' territory is, please?  Like I said, I left there 1932 and I never been in  those territories outside of Kispiox village.  I understand, so you don't know where Wiiseeks'  territory is exactly?  No.  Fine, thank you.  If they showed me on a map, then I'll know where it  is .  Thank you.  You think it is out there somewhere  around Kispiox, don't you?  Yeah, in northern part.  In the northern part of the territory up passed  Kispiox?  Yes.  Yes, thank you.  Since you are a member of the House  of Wiiseeks, you have a claim to that territory of  Wiiseeks, don't you?  Yes.  Yes.  And in this litigation, you understand that  the hereditary chiefs are seeking compensation for  loss of their territory?  I am sorry?  No.  Maybe I could put that again.  Do you understand  that the Gitksan chiefs and the Wet'suwet'en chiefs  are now seeking compensation for the loss of  territory?  When you speak of compensation, we are not trying to  sell out but we're -- we are seeking compensation in  regards to -- in regards to compensation, we are 3349  seeking to have the territories the way they were  before, the way our ancestors had governing the land  and that is what this litigation is all about.  Thank you very much.  You want the court to  recognize your ownership of the territory; correct?  What we want is to be recognized as our ancestors.  They own that territory and we want to follow their  foot steps.  Now, government has taken it away from  us, all the timbers, even water taking it away from  us .  So you want the territory back again, don't you?  The way it was governed our -- like our ancestors.  Yes, I understand.  Now, you, in the Wet'suwet'en  law, the House owns the territory, doesn't it?  Yes.  For instance, in the Tsayu House, Namox looks  after the Namox territory and that's what my father  had spoken of.  He said son, you may be the one to  look after the territory in the future for our  future children.  Tsayu -- in the Tsayu clan there are two houses,  Namox and Kweese; that's right?  Yes.  Yes.  You say the House of Namox claims Goosley Lake  territory; correct?  Goose Lake?  Goosley Lake?  Oh, Goosley Lake, yes.  Now, you are not a member of a Wet'suwet'en House,  are you?  No.  So you personally do not claim ownership of any  Wet'suwet'en territory, do you?  I am Neg'edeld'es in that territory.  Yes.  You have a right to the Goosley Lake territory  because your father was a member of Namox's House;  correct?  Yes.  Yes.  And you have that right for your life;  correct?  Yes.  Yes.  Do you have a right to any other territory,  any other Wet'suwet'en territory?  Just that territory where my father trapped.  That's  where he teach me to trap.  Shall we take the afternoon adjournment,  Mr. Mackenzie?  47 MR. MACKENZIE:  Thank you, my lord.  1  2  3  4  Q  5  6  A  7  8  9  10  11  Q  12  A  13  Q  14  15  A  16  17  18  19  20  Q  21  22  A  23  Q  24  25  A  26  Q  27  A  28  Q  29  30  A  31  Q  32  33  A  34  Q  35  36  37  A  38  Q  39  40  A  41  Q  42  43  A  44  45 THE  COURT  46 3350  1 THE REGISTRAR:  Order in court.  Court will recess.  2  3 (AFTERNOON ADJOURNMENT AT 3:02 P.M.)  4  5 I hereby certify the foregoing to be  6 a true and accurate transcript of the  7 proceedings herein, transcribed to the  8 best of my skill and ability.  9  10  11  12  13  14 TANNIS DEFOE, Official Reporter  15 United Reporting Service Ltd.  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47 3351  1 (PROCEEDINGS RECONVENED AT 3:20 P.M.)  2  3 THE REGISTRAR:  Order in court.  Ready to proceed, my lord.  4 MS. MANDELL:  My lord, if I could just interrupt for a minute,  5 we have the latest of the lists of words to be added  6 to the word list.  If I could pass it up.  7 THE COURT:  Thank you.  Okay.  Thank you.  Mr. Mackenzie.  8 MR. MACKENZIE:  9 Q   Thank you, my lord.  Now, before the break, Mr.  10 Mitchell, you told us that you had a life interest  11 in the Goosley Lake territory; correct?  12 A   Yes, me myself and my brother Billy were raised within  13 the territory.  We were taken around there as  14 children, and my brother Billy was also.  They  15 packed him around within the territory.  And that's  16 where my father raised us, and -- and that was where  17 my heart is because my father was the one that took  18 us there.  And today I am still Neg'edeld'es  19 because, like I said, that is where my father raised  20 us.  And as a result of my knowledge of the  21 territory, I know all the -- where all the beavers  22 are and where all the hills are, and I know the  23 landmarks and place names there.  Dan Michell and  24 them, they more or less let us caretake the place.  25 THE COURT:  Can I have a number, please, for the word that  26 describes the life tenancy?  27 MR. MACKENZIE:  Yes, my lord, I was going to ask Mr. Mitchell.  28 THE TRANSLATOR:  Neg'edeld'es, 192.  2 9 THE COURT:  Thank you.  30 MS. MANDELL:  My lord, I — I don't believe that Neg'edeld'es  31 describes the life tenancy.  32 THE COURT:  Oh, I'm sure it doesn't.  I'm speaking facetiously.  33 MS. MANDELL:  Okay.  34 THE COURT:  Thank you.  Well, what it means, as I understand it,  35 but if I don't understand it, perhaps I should be  36 corrected, it means, as I thought, that one had  37 rights on his father's territory for his father's  38 lifetime.  39 MS. MANDELL:  That's correct.  4 0 THE COURT:  Yes.  41 MR. MACKENZIE:  42 Q   Now, Mr. Mitchell, Neg'edeld'es is rights on the  43 territory during the father's lifetime; correct?  44 A   I'm a little bit hard of hearing and that.  45 Q   Yes.  46 A   You have to speak a little bit louder.  47 Q   Yes.  Well, your claim to the Goosley Lake territory 3352  is the Neg'edeld'es claim; correct?  Yes.  Yes.  And since -- and your father was in the House of  Namox, wasn't he?  Yes.  Yes.  And you knew the people who held the name Namox,  didn't you?  You know the chiefs who hold the name  Namox?  Yes, the ones I knew were Alfred Namox, and then  followed by Alec Tiljoe, and today it's Lucy William  holds the name Namox.  Yes.  And Dan Michell never -- does not hold the name  Namox; correct?  Dan Michell is not Namox?  No.  No.  Now, in your affidavit, which is Exhibit 185, at  page 2, paragraph 3 you say, "I have obtained  permission from Namox (Dan Michell)."  Now, that was  incorrect, wasn't it?  That's incorrect.  That's -- well, Dan Michell, he's  got it registered through the Wildlife.  He's got it  registered through the Wildlife.  That's why I said  that.  I know it's Namox's territory.  Dan Michell has a registered trapline in the Goosley  Lake territory, doesn't he?  That's his -- yeah, he's got it registered on the  white man way.  Yes.  But in Indian way it's Namox territory.  Yes.  And -- but Dan Michell is not Namox, is he?  He's in line for it.  Yes.  His name -- his chief's name is Wiig'itumsts'ol,  isn't it?  Yes.  \FZIE:  Yes.  Do you need a spelling for that, spelling  35 or number?  My lord, do you have that?  3 6 THE COURT:  No, I don't.  37 THE WITNESS:  You almost -- you almost understand and speak  38 Wet'suwet'en.  39 MR. MACKENZIE:  That's the cross we all bear.  40 THE TRANSLATOR:  Wiig'itumsts'ol, W-i-i-g-'-i-t-u-m-s-t-s-'-o-l.  41 THE COURT:  I'm sorry, at the end of that spelling there was s.  42 Is it s-l-s or s-t-s?  43 THE TRANSLATOR:  s-t-s.  4 4 THE COURT:  Thank you.  45 MR. MACKENZIE:  46 Q   So when you signed that affidavit, you didn't -- you  47 signed it with that -- knowing that was incorrect,  1  2  A  3  Q  4  5  A  6  Q  7  8  9  A  10  11  12  Q  13  14  A  15  Q  16  17  18  19  A  20  21  22  23  Q  24  25  A  26  27  Q  28  A  29  Q  30  A  31  Q  32  33  A  34 MR.  MAC] 1  2  A  3  4  5  Q  6  A  7  Q  8  9  10  A  11  12  13  14  Q  15  16  A  17  Q  18  19  A  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  Q  31  A  32  Q  33  34  35  36  37  A  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  Q  46  A  47  Q  3353  that Dan Michell was not Namox?  Well, I just mentioned it to you that Dan Michell got  it registered, that territory, and I know it's  Namox's territory.  Thank you.  In white man's way it's Dan's territory.  Now, in Wet'suwet'en law when you speak about the  territory, you require the permission of the chief  of the territory; correct?  Yes.  Because of Namox being my dad's uncle, I've  always travelled through the territory with him.  Sometimes we used to go over -- go down and see  Alfred Namox.  Today -- when you signed that affidavit, Namox is Lucy  William; correct?  Lucy William, yes.  Yes.  And you require Lucy William's permission to  speak about Goosley Lake territory, right?  Yes, Dan is in line and designated to be successor to  Namox.  Because of the failing health and illness of  the present Namox, she has given authority to Dan,  Dan Michell, and he in turn asked me to speak for --  for them on the territory.  Because of that -- and  that is why Dan was out on the territory to instruct  Billy from -- when he was trapping out there, to put  him down in another area of the territory.  And that  is when -- when Dan was shovelling snow at the cabin  and you yourself sneaked up on him and took  pictures, and that's when Dan caught you.  Thank you very much.  You already mentioned that.  You're welcome.  I want to move on to the question of the intermarriage  between your mother and your father.  Your father  was Wet'suwet'en, and your mother was Gitksan.  Now,  those marriages are common in the Hagwilget area,  are they not?  There are many?  My mother is Laksamshu, and my father is Tsayu.  They  are -- they are apart from one another because of in  the -- in the past, when -- when the Tsayu and  Laksamshu population was way down due to death, the  population was way down, and that is when the Tsayu  and the Laksamshu combined in to help one another,  and that is why they sit side by side in the feast  hall.  And Joe Wilson is Wet'suwet'en -- was Wet'suwet'en?  Joe Wilson  Joe Wilson. 1  A  2  Q  3  A  4  Q  5  6  A  7  8  9  10  11  Q  12  13  A  14  Q  15  16  A  17  Q  18  A  19  Q  20  21  A  22  Q  23  A  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  Q  32  33  A  34  Q  35  36  A  37  Q  38  39  A  40  41  42  43  Q  44  45  A  46  47  3354  Yes, Wet'suwet'en.  And his wife, Maggie Wilson, was Gitksan?  Gitksan.  Yes.  And there are other marriages between  Wet'suwet'en and Gitksan?  Yes, there is a lot of that during the present time,  and it has also happened in the past, and that is  why you can go down to Kitsegukla or around the  areas you'll find some of them people speak  Wet'suwet'en.  And the Wet'suwet'en people marry the Babine people  also, don't they?  Yes.  Now, Mr. Mitchell, you're a member of the Moricetown  Band?  Yes.  Yes.  And your registered number is 63, band number?  Eighty-six.  Eighty-six.  Yes.  And you have also been a member of  the band council?  Yes.  And how long were you a member of the band council?  In 1950 I was a council member for the first time, and  then because of my employment, working elsewhere,  I -- I was -- I had some period there where I wasn't  on council, and then about 1955 or '57 I was on  council again.  And then for a period of about ten  years I wasn't on there, and then I got back in  again, and I'm -- up to today I'm still on council,  yes .  So you have been a member of the council from 1965 to  today; is that correct?  Something like that.  Thank you.  And the band council is the government for  the Moricetown Reserve; correct?  Yes.  Yes.  And what are the subjects of the band council's  work?  Yes, we -- we as council are -- work with D.I.A.,  Indian Affairs.  We look after -- after the funding  end of it, which D.I.A. let's us handle, for such  things as water lines and other things.  And you make recommendations to Fish and Wildlife  about trapline holders as band council?  As council members the elders speak to us about the  traplines, such as this court case here, our  territory being taken over by governments, and then 3355  1 they in turn talk to us because we understand the  2 system a little better than they do.  Some of them  3 don't speak English, and they're saying that we  4 don't want to sell our lands, and that is sort of  5 recommendation we get from the elders.  And as  6 council members -- and that is how we work with the  7 elders and help them.  But as -- in regards to  8 registered trapline holders, the elders take care  9 of -- speak on that themselves.  10 MR. MACKENZIE:  And referring to my document book at tab 4,  11 would you please put that before the witness?  12 The first document under tab 4 is a Band Council  13 Resolution dated June 7, 1982.  Is that your  14 signature on the bottom of that document reading  15 Alfred Mitchell?  16 THE COURT:  Isn't the question simply is that your signature?  17 MR. MACKENZIE:  18 Q   Yes, that's the question.  19 Is that your signature?  20 A   Yes.  21 THE COURT:  Is your name Mitchell, M-i-t-c-h-e-1-1, or Michell,  22 M-i-c-h-e-1-1?  23 THE WITNESS:  Problem there is that there's two Alfred Michell  24 in Moricetown.  2 5 THE COURT:  Yes.  26 THE WITNESS:  And on my U.I.C. card it's — I work on Mitchell,  27 otherwise we get our cheques mixed up.  2 8 THE COURT:  I see.  You don't want that.  29 THE WITNESS:  No.  30 THE COURT:  But what is your name, sir?  31 THE WITNESS:  Alfred Mitchell now.  32 THE COURT:  All right.  Thank you.  33 MR. MACKENZIE:  And the next document is a Band Council  34 Resolution dated September 10, 1979.  Is that your  35 signature at the bottom?  The question is:  Is that  36 your signature at the bottom, the second document  37 under tab 4?  38 THE INTERPRETER:  Excuse me, I neglected to translate what he  39 was saying before.  40 MR. MACKENZIE:  Oh, I beg your pardon.  41 THE COURT:  Well, I've noticed that the witness was getting  42 along very well without everything being translated  43 for three days.  Is it necessary that everything be  44 translated?  If it's required, then of course, by  45 all means.  But it seems to me that this is  46 taking -- some very simple questions are taking a  47 very long time because it's going through this 3356  1 translation process, which I must say, after the  2 experience we've had, seems unnecessary.  What do  3 you say about this, Ms. Mandell, if anything?  4 MS. MANDELL:  Well, all along the witness has indicated where he  5 felt he needed to be translated, he has turned to  6 the translator, and --  7 THE COURT:  Yes.  8 MS. MANDELL:  — I — I would say that if he feels more  9 comfortable in Wet'suwet'en and that's why he's  10 turning to the translation, it's for a reason.  11 THE COURT:  Well, he didn't need it a moment ago when I asked  12 him a question.  It seems to me it isn't necessary,  13 but I'm not going to presume to say one way or the  14 other.  But it does take a lot of extra time.  Let's  15 see how we get along, please.  The question is  16 whether your signature is on that document.  17 MR. MACKENZIE:  18 Q   Is that your signature on that document?  19 A   Yes, that's my signature.  20 Q   The third document is dated September 10, 1979, and  21 it's relating to Mathew Sam.  Now, the question is:  22 Is that your signature at the bottom of that page?  23 Sorry, re Mathew Sam?  24 A   Is that the one with this, Mathew Sam?  25 Q   Yeah, Mathew Sam & Company.  Is that your signature?  26 A   Yes.  27 MS. MANDELL:  Perhaps you could help to identify the document  28 you're talking about?  29 MR. MACKENZIE:  Well, it's the third document I have under tab  30 4, dated September 10, 1979, re Mathew Sam &  31 Company, Trapline.  32 MS. KOENIGSBERG:  I think the difficulty is that I — I have  33 that page as Louis Tommy, and Mathew Sam is the  34 second document.  They're both dated the same date.  35 THE COURT:  They're both dated the same day.  That's the only  36 problem.  37 MR. MACKENZIE:  Yes, my lord.  38 THE COURT:  He's told us the first two have his signature.  The  39 question now is the third one.  40 MR. MACKENZIE:  I'm sorry, my lord.  There appears to have been  41 some mix-up.  It's just the third one.  42 THE COURT:  You're looking at Louis Tommy now, are you not, the  43 third page?  44 MR. MACKENZIE:  My lord, perhaps I can just expedite this by  45 saying that there are four documents under tab 4 and  46 ask the witness whether his signature appears on  47 those four documents. 3357  1 THE COURT:  Well, we have it for the first two.  2 MR. MACKENZIE:  3 Q   Yes, and I'll just move over to the witness then and  4 work through with his.  5 And we're looking at the Louis Tommy Band Council  6 Resolution dated September 10, 1979.  The question  7 is:  Is that your signature at the bottom of that  8 document?  9 A   Yes.  10 Q   I'm sorry because the copies are mixed up in the  11 others.  We're looking now at the fourth document,  12 dated June 7, 1982, re Alexander Dennis & Company.  13 Is that your signature at the bottom of that  14 document?  15 A   Yes.  16 MR. MACKENZIE:  My lord, I'd ask that those four documents under  17 tab 4 be marked as the next exhibit.  18 THE COURT:  Are you objecting?  19 MS. MANDELL:  No.  2 0 THE COURT:  All right.  21 THE REGISTRAR:  All four will be one exhibit?  22 THE COURT:  Yes.  23 MR. MACKENZIE:  Yes, my lord.  24 THE REGISTRAR:  That will be Exhibit 223, tab 4.  25  26 (EXHIBIT 223 - FOUR BAND COUNCIL RESOLUTIONS DATED  27 JUNE 7, 1982, SEPTEMBER 10, 1979, SEPTEMBER 10,  28 1979, AND JANUARY 18, 1975)  29  30 MR. MACKENZIE:  My lord, to save the Court's time, perhaps I  31 could meet with the Registrar and have subnumbers  32 given to those.  33 THE COURT:  Oh, I record them.  34 MR. MACKENZIE:  Thank you, my lord.  35 THE COURT:  They're all Exhibit 223.  36 MR. MACKENZIE:  37 Q   Now, Mr. Mitchell, yesterday you told us that when you  38 went hunting you do not apply for a permit.  Do you  39 remember saying that?  40 A   Yes.  41 Q   Yes.  And today you said that you applied for a permit  42 for your son.  Do you remember saying that?  43 A   Yes.  44 MR. MACKENZIE:  Yes.  I refer the witness and the Court to tab 3  45 of the document book.  And, my lord, I'm approaching  46 the witness just to make sure that I can assist him  47 with locating the signatures. 3358  1 THE COURT:  Yes.  2 MR. MACKENZIE:  3 Q   Looking at the first page under tab 3 of the document  4 book entitled Application for a Sustenance Permit,  5 I'm pointing to a document following paragraph 6.  6 Is that your signature?  7 A   Yes.  8 Q   Turning over to the next page -- I'm sorry, I'll  9 remain on page 1, my lord.  Referring to the  10 signature at the bottom of the first page following  11 paragraph 7, is that your son John's signature?  12 A   That's John's, yes.  13 Q   Turning over to the next page under tab -- tab 3, I'm  14 pointing to the signature.  Is that your son John  15 Mitchell's signature?  16 A   John.  17 Q   Yes.  And referring to the third page under tab 3, a  18 document entitled Fish and Wildlife Branch Permits -  19 Sundry, pointing to the document under "Permitee,"  20 is that your signature?  21 A   Yes, that's my signature.  22 Q   And pointing across the page to the signature beside  23 the word "Designate," is that your son John's  24 signature?  25 A   John, yes.  26 MR. MACKENZIE:  My lord, I would submit that those three pages  27 be marked as the next exhibit.  28 THE COURT:  Yes, Exhibit 224.  29 THE REGISTRAR:  Exhibit 224, tab 3.  30 THE COURT:  Three pages.  31  32 (EXHIBIT 224 - APPLICATION FOR SUSTENANCE PERMIT DATED  33 JANUARY 11, 1983, A. MITCHELL; APPLICATION TO HUNT  34 DATED JANUARY 11, 1983; PERMIT #B11791 DATED JANUARY  35 11, 1983)  36  37 THE COURT:  What do you think, Mr. Mackenzie?  Are you finished  38 with that document?  39 MR. MACKENZIE:  I may have some questions on that later.  I'm  40 finished with submitting that as an exhibit.  41 THE COURT:  All right.  We'll adjourn then until ten o'clock  42 tomorrow morning.  43 THE REGISTRAR:  Order in court.  This court will adjourn.  44  4 5 (PROCEEDINGS ADJOURNED AT 4:00 P.M.)  46  47 3359  1  2  3  4  5  6  7 I hereby certify the foregoing to be  8 a true and accurate transcript of the  9 proceedings herein to the best of my  10 skill and ability.  11  12  13  14 Leanna Smith  15 Official Reporter  16 United Reporting Service Ltd.  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47


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