Open Collections

Delgamuukw Trial Transcripts

[Proceedings of the Supreme Court of British Columbia 1988-03-01] British Columbia. Supreme Court Mar 1, 1988

Item Metadata


JSON: delgamuukw-1.0019303.json
JSON-LD: delgamuukw-1.0019303-ld.json
RDF/XML (Pretty): delgamuukw-1.0019303-rdf.xml
RDF/JSON: delgamuukw-1.0019303-rdf.json
Turtle: delgamuukw-1.0019303-turtle.txt
N-Triples: delgamuukw-1.0019303-rdf-ntriples.txt
Original Record: delgamuukw-1.0019303-source.json
Full Text

Full Text

 3941  1 Vancouver, B. C.  2 March 1, 1988.  3 MR. GOLDIE:  My lord, while we are waiting for the witness, Mr.  4 Grant has given me a letter with respect to -- what  5 has come to be known as the underlying documents to  6 the questionnaire, which is disclosed on the  7 plaintiff's list of documents as document 3339.  I  8 have a few questions to put to Mr. Michell with  9 respect to these and with your lordship's leave I  10 would like to do that before, of course, my friend  11 commences his re-examination.  12 THE COURT:  Any problem with that, Mr. Rush?  13 MR. RUSH:  I think it should be done right away.  14 THE COURT:  All right.  15 THE REGISTRAR:  I caution you, Mr. Michell, you are still under  16 oath.  17 MR. GOLDIE:  My lord, perhaps I should read Mr. Grant's letter,  18 because it will save me a few minutes in cross-  19 examination.  The letter is addressed to myself and  20 Ms. Koenigsberg, and he says:  "I have completed the  21 inquiries with respect to the underlying documents  22 relating to document 3339 which the court already  23 orders as a privileged document.  The only document  24 which presently exists with respect to that document  25 is the form of survey, a copy of which is enclosed."  26 I pause there to say I was in error when I referred  27 to the document 3339 as the survey itself.  Or the  28 form of the survey.  Continuing:  "I have been  29 instructed there are no copies of the survey which  30 were completed by any persons.  These have either been  31 lost or destroyed.  I can also inform you there were  32 no names put on the forms."  33  34 FURTHER CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR. GOLDIE:  35  36 Q   Mr. Michell, do you recall a Moricetown fisheries  37 survey, which was distributed or I will ask you if you  38 recall a survey using that form which I am now placing  39 in front of you?  40 A   No, there was talk about this but I don't know if it  41 went ahead or not.  42 Q   You say there was talk about it, where, in the band  43 council or in the village or what?  44 A   In the village.  45 Q   But do you recall seeing that form?  4 6 A   No, I didn't.  47 Q   You have never seen it before? 3942  1 A   No, because I don't think it was circulated.  2 Q   But there was talk of a survey and if -- did the talk  3 that you heard extend to as far as a discussion of a  4 form of survey?  5 A   Yes, well they always, you know, the fisheries always  6 doing their thing in the village there, counting fish  7 catch and things like that so they want to get to see  8 it's true what they say.  9 Q   Who was "they" who wanted to get the village's end of  10 it?  11 A  Well, the village people, there are times when the  12 figures shows up like for instance Alfred Mitchell's,  13 73 spring salmon, I was amazed to see that.  I don't  14 think Alfred Mitchell ever caught 73 salmon.  So they  15 must have got the two combined together.  There is two  16 Alfred Mitchell and Mitchell.  17 Q   So was it the band council who wanted to get their own  18 survey?  19 A   Yes, want to know if it's going to match up with what  2 0 the government is doing.  21 Q   And that would have been a good thing to get an  22 accurate picture of, what the villages were doing  23 during the fishery; is that right?  24 A   Yes.  25 Q   But it didn't go ahead?  2 6 A   No.  27 Q   Can you tell me why?  28 A   No, I don't —  29 Q   Was there a resolution of the band council with  30 respect to this survey?  31 A   I don't recall it.  I don't think so.  32 Q   Do you know who prepared the form that I showed you?  33 A   I believe it was Victor.  34 Q   Victor Jim?  35 A  Victor Jim.  36 Q   But -- and you tell me you have never seen a form of  37 survey?  38 A   No.  39 Q   A questionnaire?  40 A   No, not filled out.  41 Q   Are you able to tell his lordship if you know of any  42 people who completed a survey, do you know the names  43 of anybody who filled the survey in?  44 A   No, I didn't know about it.  45 Q   Would Victor Jim have been the person who received the  46 completed questionnaires if anybody did complete them?  4 7 A   I don't know. 1  MR.  GOLDIE  2  THE  COURT:  3  4  A  5  6  THE  COURT:  7  8  A  9  THE  COURT:  0  A  1  MR.  GOLDIE  2  Q  3  4  A  5  MR.  GOLDIE  6  3943  :  All right.  Thank you, my lord.  When was the survey, when was the talk about the  survey, was it quite recent or a long time ago?  I couldn't remember what year it is.  Like the years  going so fast for me lately.  For all of us.  Are we talking about something in  the '40s or the '80, '70s or '80s.  In the '80s  In the '80s?  Yes.  Just to follow-up on what his lordship asked you, were  you the chief councillor when this talk occurred?  Yes.  Well, I am not going to tender this, my lord.  It's  not been identified at this point.  17 THE COURT:  All right.  Thank you.  Is that all, Mr. Goldie?  18 MR. GOLDIE:  Yes, it is.  19 THE COURT:  Mr. Rush?  20 MR. RUSH:  I want to be sure that there are no further questions  21 from my learned friends.  22 MS. KOENIGSBERG:  I have no further questions.  2 3 THE COURT:  Thank you.  24 MR. RUSH:  That then completes the cross-examination?  2 5 THE COURT:  Yes.  26  2 7 RE-EXAMINATION BY MR. RUSH:  28  2 9 MR. RUSH:  30 Q   Mr. Michell, you told the court in your  31 cross-examination that your claim, that is to say, the  32 claim of Namox, House of Namox, in the lawsuit was  33 confined to the Goosley territory.  When you said  34 that, did you include the fishing sites of Namox at  35 Moricetown when you said that?  36 A No.  37 Q They are part of Namox' claim, are they?  38 A Yes.  39 Q Now, you also indicated in your cross-examination a  40 lack of knowledge about the Namox territory at Decker  41 Lake.  If this territory were to be confirmed by  42 Wet'suwet'en elders to be owned by Namox, would your  43 house claim it in this action?  44 MR. GOLDIE:  Well, I object to that, my lord.  That's a highly  45 hypothetical proposition.  The witness said he had no  46 knowledge of it.  To ask him if somebody confirms that  47 it belongs to him would he claim it is, in my 1  2 THE COURT  3 MR. RUSH:  4 THE COURT  5  6  7  8  9 MR. RUSH:  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  2 0 THE COURT  21  22  23  2 4 MR. RUSH:  25  26  2 7 THE COURT  2 8 MR. RUSH:  2 9 THE COURT  30  31  32  33  34  35 MR. GOLDI  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  3944  submission, not arising out of the cross-examination.  :  Certainly highly hypothetical, isn't it?  It is at this point.  :  If you don't know anything about it but somebody  told you about it, would you claim it, certainly would  depend on what he was told and what the circumstances  are, whether he thought the claim was valid, invalid,  specious or whatever.  I quite agree that the question is problematic from  the standpoint of all those considerations.  I don't  think it's objectionable because it wasn't raised in  cross-examination.  Indeed it was, on a number of  occassions my friend made reference to this witness's  knowledge about a Tsayu/Namox territory at Decker  Lake.  At the same time he asked a question which  suggested a confinement of the house's territorial  claim, as he knew it, to Goosley.  And I think it's  pertinent to your lordship that if such were confirmed  would this be part of his claim, his house's claim.  :  It isn't.  The claim is within relatively clearly  defined boundaries.  You are asking, I suppose your  question includes whether he would seek an amendment  to add it to this claim.  With respect, it is part of the claim.  The question  is that this witness does not have knowledge, does not  have personal knowledge.  :  Decker Lake is within the claim area?  Yes.  :  All right.  Well, it's of such limited probative  value, that I don't know how it can be of any  assistance.  But it did arise, the question arose in  cross-examination, I will allow you to ask the witness  if other information has come to his attention, he  would advance a claim with respect to it.  E:  Well, I do want to make this submission, my lord:  We are dealing with individual claims and we want to  know what is being claimed by each individual house.  And if the matter is to be left that at some future  time, if a claim to this particular territory is  defeated or is put in question, another can be raised  elsewhere.  There is no finality to the case.  We are  either dealing with what is raised in the pleadings  and what is raised by the witness in his evidence in  chief, or we are dealing with an open-ended  proposition.  I say this didn't arise out of my  cross-examination because when the witness says, "I  have no knowledge of anything else" that's the end of 3945  1 that cross-examination.  And to raise a hypothetical  2 proposition, as a means of opening another door, is,  3 in my submission, something which should have been  4 done in chief.  It amounts, in it's approach it  5 amounts to splitting their case.  Either they have  6 something or they don't have something.  7 MR. RUSH:  Well, I wish the world were as black and white as Mr.  8 Goldie suggests.  What I say, with respect, is that  9 the witness has indicated what the limits of his  10 knowledge are, and in my submission, if -- it doesn't  11 in the slightest defeat or limit the claim of the  12 house.  It may be limited by this witness's knowledge  13 but if there is evidence that comes to your lordship  14 from a member of this house or another member,  15 Wet'suwet'en person, then, in my submission, it is  16 relevant to your lordship as to -- with that  17 knowledge, whether this witness considers that his  18 claim is confined simply to Goosley or would it  19 otherwise include Decker Lake.  And I say it's  20 relevant and not in the slightest splitting the case.  21 In fact my friend is the one that pressed it with him  22 on several occasions.  23 MR. GOLDIE:  I think I referred to the Decker Lake territory  24 once.  That's beside the point.  25 MR. RUSH:  My view of the transcript is otherwise.  26 THE COURT:  I am going to allow the question.  I don't think it  27 has any probative value at all, if there is a risk of  28 my being in error in that regard, it's better to have  29 the evidence on the record.  The witness is here and  30 anything he says to this question is subject to the  31 objection that was made and I will hear the answer.  I  32 think I know what the answer is.  33 MR. RUSH:  34 Q   Mr. Michell, as to the question of the Decker Lake  35 territory, if it were confirmed by other Wet'suwet'en  36 elders that this territory was owned by the House of  37 Namox, would your house's claim in this action include  38 that as part of the land claim?  39 A  Well, the reason why I was confused on that is that  40 last Sunday my mother came and visited us in my house,  41 before we left, back home, and I asked her about the  42 name Boo, I have been asked that question so many  43 times up here, and what she said was the name Boo was  44 just a nickname.  45 MR. GOLDIE:  I have to object to that.  This is pure hearsay.  46 THE COURT:  Yes, sounds like hearsay.  47 A   No, but that's what my mother told me about this 1  2  MR.  GOLDI  3  4  5  THE  COURT  6  MR.  RUSH:  7  THE  COURT  8  MR.  RUSH:  9  10  11  12  A  13  MR.  RUSH:  14  Q  15  16  17  A  18  Q  19  20  21  22  23  A  24  Q  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  A  33  Q  34  35  THE  TRANS  36  MR.  RUSH:  37  Q  38  39  A  40  Q  41  42  A  43  THE  TRANS  44  MR.  RUSH:  45  Q  46  47  A  3946  question I have been asked and later on --  E:  But in exactly demonstrates why this question is  improper.  It opens up something which should have  been dealt with in chief.  :  Well, is it not clearly hearsay, Mr. Rush?  I am not asking this witness to give this evidence.  :  You are not stopping him.  Well, my lord, the question of hearsay, with respect,  I mean the last few questions of my learned friend,  what were you told, what were the rumours around  Moricetown with regard to this.  I was coming to answer the question that I was asked.  Well, excuse me, Mr. Michell, if you can could just  restrict your answer to the question that I posed.  Do you want me to give you the question again?  Yes.  Maybe that would be helpful.  With regard to the Decker Lake territory, if it  were confirmed by other Wet'suwet'en elders that this  territory was owned by the House of Namox, would your  house's claim include this as part of the land claim?  Yes, I think they would.  Now, Mr. Michell, you were asked some questions about  the word, the Wet'suwet'en word harvest, and the  Wet'suwet'en word to conserve.  And I think that you  said that one of the two Wet'suwet'en words for  harvest was, and I am going to try my pronounciation,  C'ek'anii'uten, does that sound like one of the words  that you said?  I am going to spell it,  C'-e-k'-a-n-i-i'-a-t'e-n.  There is two different words that you said in English.  Firstly, what I would like to do -- Mr. Mitchell, can  you pronounce that word?  LATOR:   C'ek'anii'at'en.  Do you recognize that word as one of the words you  told us about?  The word for harvest.  Yes.  And there was another word for conserve, which I  think was A'yuu lii.  There is two words.  LATOR:  A'yuu lii.  Do you recall giving us those two words in your  cross-examination?  Yes. 3947  1 Q   Are you able to say from those words that you gave us  2 in Wet'suwet'en, how old those words are in the  3 Wet'suwet'en language?  4 A   Yes, when the creator created us he has given us those  5 words, way back.  Who knows when?  6 Q   All right.  I want to refer you to a question that you  7 were asked by counsel for the Provincial Government,  8 it's at volume 62 at page 3804, and I am just going to  9 read to you, Mr. Michell, what was said at the bottom  10 of page 3804.  And you were asked this question and at  11 that time you were being referred to an exhibit,  12 Exhibit 88-A, and the question was:  13  14 "Q   Now, over on the next page Mr. George goes on and  15 he says that and this is midway through the first  16 paragraph 'Our uncle Joseph is now the fifth  17 generation from the time...' then he carries on."  18 And the time being when they were given the  19 trapline, the trapping rights according to Indian  20 rights."  21  22 Then he carries on with the quote:  23  24 "'...fifth generation from the time this trapping  25 place was given to our ancestors.'.  26  27 And the question was:  28  29 "Now Mr. Michell, on the basis of — well, firstly  30 I ask you this.  Is there anything in your oral  31 tradition of your house about when the trapping  32 place was given to the House of Namox?  33 A   No."  34  35 And my question to you is:  Does the oral tradition  36 of the house of Namox say how long the house has held  37 or owned the territory at Goosley?  38 A  Well, that again goes back to, that goes back  39 immemorial, we don't even know how long it's been,  40 it's been for ages that they have been pass that on to  41 next generation.  42 Q   All right.  You also indicated in your  43 cross-examination that -- you told the court that  44 trapping has always been done by iron traps.  Is there  45 a time that you know of or that you have any knowledge  46 of, when it was not done by iron traps?  47 A   No, there was wooden ones that we make. 3948  1 Q   What kind of wooden traps were those?  2 A  Well, it's for fur-bearing animal, the — the one my  3 dad used to make in 20 minutes, it took me over an  4 hour to make one.  Because they used, make a little  5 kind of box, you know, round timbers, just nail them  6 in the ground there and put two across there with the  7 trip on the other end and the bait hole on the inside.  8 And that bait has been touched it trips that thing and  9 catches the animal.  10 MR. GOLDIE:  My lord, the witness was indicating dimensions by  11 his hands.  That won't manifest itself on the record.  12 THE COURT:  No.  13 MR. GOLDIE:  Is there any way in which the witness can indicate  14 by inches or feet how large the box was that he was  15 demonstrating?  16 A   It's about between five, six inches in width and the  17 height, it doesn't matter, as long as it keeps the  18 animal from getting in from behind.  He has to get in  19 the front.  There is two more little poles.  20 MR. GOLDIE:   You are showing your —  21 A   There is one big pole about four inches in diameter  22 that goes up the tree, that's the one that's a weight  23 to hold those two.  24 THE COURT:  Did you say chain?  25 A   No, pole.  2 6 MR. RUSH:  27 Q   No, the pole.  How big is the pole that goes up the  28 tree?  29 A   Four inches in diameter.  30 Q   And how long?  31 A   12 feet.  32 MR. GOLDIE:  I may have misunderstood the witness, but I want to  33 be clear about this, I thought he was giving  34 dimensions of the box in which the animal went into?  35 A   It would be six inches wide and about ten inches deep  36 and the height would be about seven inches.  37 MR. GOLDIE:  Thank you.  3 8 MR. RUSH:  39 Q   What kind of animal went into that?  40 A  Well, catch mink and marten, fisher.  41 THE COURT:  Marten?  42 MR. RUSH:  Mink, marten and fisher.  43 Q   Do you know what the name of this kind of trap is?  44 A   G'oh.  45 THE TRANSLATOR: 472.  4 6 MR. RUSH:  47       Q   Now, Mr. Michell, you were asked some questions about 1  2  3  4  5  6  A  7  8  THE  COURT  9  A  10  THE  COURT  11  A  12  MR.  RUSH:  13  Q  14  15  A  16  Q  17  A  18  Q  19  20  A  21  Q  22  A  23  Q  24  25  A  26  Q  27  28  29  A  30  Q  31  32  33  A  34  35  36  Q  37  A  38  Q  39  40  41  THE  REGIS1  42  MR.  RUSH:  43  44  THE  COURT  45  MR.  RUSH:  46  47  3949  a suit that was commenced by members of the Moricetown  Band and band council in respect to the Jean Baptiste  reserve and I wanted to ask you if you can tell his  lordship where this reserve is located, if you know  it?  Yes, it's three miles north of Smithers.  North, a  little bit east.  :  On the east side of the river?  It's on the north side, towards Babine Lake.  :  Across the river from Smithers town?  Yes.  And Jean Baptiste, was there a Wet'suwet'en person  with that name?  Yes.  And did you ever know Jean Baptiste?  Yes.  Do you know, are you able to say how long ago it was  that he passed on, if he did?  Probably in the '60s, I can remember.  Do you know who administers this reserve?  The Moricetown Band.  And do you know when this reserve came to be a  reserve?  I believe somewhere around 1926 or something.  Now, you told us yesterday that the Moricetown sawmill  shut down in the early spring for breakup, you said  because of a shortage of logs.  Do you recall that?  Yes.  And I wanted to ask you how long the mill was shut  down, for how many days, weeks or months, do you  recall?  Not really.  It was pretty near towards summer when  it's dried up enough that the ground was hard enough  to go into the bush.  Do you know why the mill was shut down?  It didn't have enough log inventory.  Now, I want to refer you to the provincial document  book, the document book that was provided to you, it  was the black document book, it's tab 4 of that --  rRAR:  The licence book?  I think it's the -- I would know it if I had it.  Yes, that's it.  :  Timber supply agreements?  I am just not sure, my lord.  If you could just give  me a moment.  It's Exhibit 289 and it is, I think, the  second series.  That was my confusion.  Thank you. THE  THE  MR.  9  10  11  12  13 MR.  14 MR.  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  2 7 MR.  28  29  30  31  32  33 THE  34  35 MR.  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45 THE  46  4 7 MR.  3950  Yes.  REGISTRAR:  Tab 4 of the second series, my lord.  COURT:  Thank you.  RUSH:  Q   Mr. Michell, if you could please turn to page seven.  Yes.  I have item number four, Integrated Resource  Management.  You were referred to the management goals  on page number seven by Mr. Goldie but you were not  referred to item four and I wanted to ask you if the  Integrated Resource Management that's indicated in  item number four was one of the objectives of the band  with respect to this application?  GOLDIE:  It's not an application.  RUSH:  Q   This is referred to as a management and working plan,  Mr. Michell, is this one of the objectives that the  band had?  A   Yes.  Q   I refer you now to page 12, item 2.23 you were asked a  question about the item under paragraph 2.231 with the  heading "Cutting systems" and I will quote.  It says:  "Clear cut logging will be the harvesting system  applied to all forest types in the licence area."  And  to your knowledge, Mr. Michell, would the band have  been permitted by the Ministry of Forests to use any  other cutting method?  GOLDIE:  I object to that.  This is their management and  working plan and the witness's evidence was that this  was put together by a forester and he -- it suited the  band's interest in it but he did not give evidence  with respect to anything other than confirming that it  was part of their plan.  COURT:  Does seem, Mr. Rush -- well, I should hear if you  have a submission.  RUSH:  Well, this is the, my friend is putting the argument  forth that the document speaks for itself and yet he  himself asked numerous questions about what the  objective, what the intent was of the band with  respect to the contents of this working plan and in my  submission it is pertinent to you to know whether or  not this plan of utilizing a clear-cutting system for  harvesting was one that had its origination with the  band or whether it was with the origination of the  chiefs, the members or the Ministry of Forestry.  COURT:  Well, that's not the question put to him though, is  it?  RUSH:  Well, if it's a difficulty with the formulation of my 1  2  3  4  5  MR.  GOLDI  6  7  8  MR.  RUSH:  9  MR.  GOLDI  10  THE  COURT  11  12  13  14  15  MR.  RUSH:  16  Q  17  18  19  A  20  Q  21  22  A  23  24  25  26  27  Q  28  A  29  Q  30  A  31  32  33  34  35  Q  36  A  37  38  39  40  41  42  Q  43  44  A  45  Q  46  47  3951  question, I am happy to reformulate it, because in my  submission what's relevant to your lordship is to know  on what basis it is that this particular statement was  inserted into the working plan.  E:  Well, I have no objection to a question, is there  any other proposal made for the working of the  licence?  Well, that's not my question.  E:  I know it's not the question.  :  The question, in my view, is properly objectionable  in that it asks the witness to say what someone else  would have done in different circumstances.  I don't  think I should go further than that.  You may put a  different question if you wish, Mr. Rush.  Mr. Michell, are you -- were you involved, yourself,  in the preparation of this particular paragraph of  paragraph 2.23 of this working plan?  No, we had the forester do it.  All right.  And do you know who it was that put this  form -- formulated this --  Well, there is two different ones that I have been  questioned about here and I just forget what their  names were.  One of them was hired by Ron Fricke, and  the other one was hired by our band council, Tim Buck  I think it was his name.  Who was he?  He was a forester.  And did they discuss this with you?  Well, they, themselves, they do the study, apparently  they go through the timbers and see what it's like.  From that, you know, they tell us what kind of timber  is in the area.  And what the ground is like so they  can --  I am sorry?  They have to check out all the ground, creeks and  everything before they start to make plans how to log  the area.  And the timber, what it's like.  And they  decide how it's supposed to be logged.  And I believe  all of it, like I said, some areas, you know, just  nothing but rotten hemlock.  Do you know how it is, Mr. Michell, that the paragraph  2.231 was inserted into this working plan?  No, I don't know.  I didn't see it until now.  All right.  We will leave that.  You were referred to another document, Mr. Michell,  called the B. C. Special, a document that was put to 1  2 THE  COURT  3 MR.  RUSH:  4  Q  5  6  7  8  9  A  10  11  12  13  Q  14  A  15  Q  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  A  25  Q  26  A  27  Q  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  A  46  Q  47  A  3952  you and marked as Exhibit 300, Mr. Michell.  :  I am sorry, the number again?  300.  Now, you identified that, I think, as a document that  came to the band and that's dated July 30th, 1987.  Mr. Michell, are you able to say when it was that you  first became aware of the B. C. Special in relation to  the Moricetown Band, what the date of that was?  No, not really.  I heard of B. C. Special like, you  know, if somebody like we say B. C. Special, not on  papers or anything but the time they were given powers  over it.  That's the first I heard of it.  That was, I think you said, in 1965?  Somewhere around there.  All right.  I would like to refer you now to Exhibit  82, this is the Wet'suwet'en Sekani-Carrier overlap  feast, as it's entitled.  And you were referred to a  number of passages on page 2 and 4 of this document.  And on page 2 of this document, you were referred to  paragraph two and I want to refer you to a passage of  the paragraph two that I believe was not read to you,  and I am quoting -- do you have paragraph 2 on page 2,  Mr. Michell?  Page 2, yes.  Do you have the part, "I don't believe..."  Yeah.  And I believe that Mr. Goldie read down to the fifth  line, ending  "...there is always somebody disagreeing  now."  I would like to read from that point and you  say here:  "As you all know, we get strength from  unity.  For many years they divided our people, we  have been divided, they divided us with non-status,  they tried to make them think like had a white man?  They joke about that.  They say they are blond and  then get their parents' black hair back but it takes  so long they have gray hair.  This is how the  government is dividing us.  The government have tried  to divide us.  We want to work together as one nation.  The Gitksan and Carrier, I want to welcome you with  these words.  Thank you very much."  My question here, Mr. Michell, when you were  referring to "for many years they divided us, or they  divided our people, we have been divided and they  divided us", who did you mean?  The government.  Which government?  Well, the federal government. 3953  1 Q   Any other government?  2 A   I don't know what the other governments are.  All the  3 governments.  4 MR. GOLDIE:  Well, that speaks for itself, that objection.  5 MR. RUSH:  6 Q   Now, page four, Mr. Michell -- we will try again.  7 MR. GOLDIE:  Yes.  8 MR. RUSH:  9 Q   Again a passage that wasn't read to you by Mr. Goldie  10 that I will read to you, at the bottom of page four,  11 do you see the paragraph beginning "Same thing with  12 our fish..."?  13 A   Yes.  14 Q   And a portion of that was read to you, I think the  15 passage down to "they won't let us go where our  16 grandfathers used to go."  I just want to read to that  17 point.  "They wouldn't let us go even though this is  18 what our people were told by the missionaries, to  19 share, this is what our people were told by the  20 missionaries to share the land with them.  We wanted  21 to share this but you see they want to take it all.  22 As you young people see, we used to be able to live  23 off the land anywhere.  What God has provided for us  24 is out on the land.  Now the government has  25 regulations.  People are there.  Welcome you because  26 we all have to learn.  Watch out for the law.  You  27 feel like you are stealing from them when you want to  28 take moose or had a deer.  They tell us it is for  2 9 conservation and yet every time white man hunting  30 season comes every fall you see hunters come from all  31 over the world and take our game.  They tell us they  32 are saving it for the future.  This is what land  33 claims is all about. Too many millionaires come into  34 this country using up our land."  35 MR. GOLDIE:  Excuse me, I have no objection to the witness being  36 questioned on that.  I don't think I read any part of  37 that to the witness.  38 MR. RUSH:  That's true, you didn't read that part, you read the  39 part before it.  40 Q   My question to you, Mr. Michell, is that when you look  41 at the bottom of page four you make a reference to the  42 government.  And it's, I think, six lines from the  43 bottom, and it says: "Now the government has  44 regulations.  People are there."  And I was wondering  45 if you could tell us which government you were  46 referring to?  47 A   Fish and Wildlife. 3954  1 Q   Fish and Wildlife?  2 A   Yes.  3 MR. GOLDIE:  Now ask if any other government is involved.  4 MR. RUSH:  Well, I guess you will admit that's the Provincial  5 Government, will you?  6 MR. GOLDIE:  I certainly admit that the Fish and Wildlife is  7 part of the Provincial Government.  8 MS. KOENIGSBERG:  I will admit that too.  9 MR. RUSH:  Must be the only time we have had concensus in the  10 courtroom.  11 THE COURT:  You haven't agreed yet, Mr. Rush.  12 MR. RUSH:  Any time I would like to know what fish hand wildlife  13 is.  14 Q   Now, Mr. Michell, I want to ask you about a document  15 that was referred to you by Ms. Koenigsberg, Exhibit  16 303.  I am going to refer to a number of exhibits, I  17 think 303 onward.  303, 4, 5, 6.  I will refer to them  18 all.  19 This document is a copy of an Indian Food Licence,  20 and you have said it was identified as containing your  21 signature.  Mr. Michell, do you remember the  22 circumstances which gave rise to your signing this?  23 A   Yes.  24 Q   What were they?  25 A  Well, the federal fisheries take a net out and they  26 come out with a jet boat, from down river, and they  27 take out all the nets that is set out by our people  28 and they told us that we have to have these licence  2 9 number on them and then they wouldn't do that.  They  30 said there is a lot of non-Indians were setting nets  31 out at the same time too, that's what we were told.  32 Q   I notice this Indian Food Licence is dated May 25th,  33 1982.  Does that -- do you have Exhibit 303?  34 A   Yeah.  35 Q   And it says that it ends on June 11th, 1982.  Do you  36 see that, "seven days per week until June 11th, 1982.  37 This licence expires June 11, 1982."  38 A   Yes, it says that but where is that May?  39 Q   It's right below, you see where the date is, issued at  40 Hazelton, B. C, dated May 25, 1982.  Can you tell us  41 what happened after June 11th, 1982 when this expired?  42 A   They continued fishing.  43 Q   Who continued?  44 A   The fishermen.  45 Q   Were they under this permit or any other permit?  4 6 A   No.  47 Q   All right.  Mr. Michell, would you look at Exhibit 1  2  A  3  Q  4  5  A  6  Q  7  8  A  9  10  Q  11  A  12  Q  13  14  A  15  Q  16  A  17  Q  18  A  19  20  21  22  23  24  Q  25  26  27  A  28  Q  29  30  A  31  32  Q  33  A  34  35  36  37  38  Q  39  40  A  41  42  43  44  45  46  Q  47  A  3955  304.  This is a document stamped with 11130.  Yes.  This is entitled Personal Commercial Fishing Licence.  What do you understand that to mean?  Commercial fishing licence?  It says a Personal Commercial Fishing Licence, do you  see that at the top left hand corner?  No.  Well, all I knew is that I had to have one of  these to be in the boat with Guy Morgan, fishing boat.  Guy Morgan?  Yes.  He is a fisherman.  How long were you with Guy Morgan when you needed  this?  Just for a day.  A day?  Day and a half or something.  One night and one day.  Who said you had to have it?  Guy.  Because, you know, like the fisheries they are  out there and they inspect their boat all the time,  checkups.  What they have gotten.  He has somebody  with him that don't have that they just might take all  his fish that he catch and lots of delay when trying  to correct that.  All right.  Thank you.  Now, I want to ask you about  Exhibit 305, if I may.  That's the band council  resolution of July 12, 1974, do you see that?  Yes.  Now, do you know what the circumstances were that gave  rise to the passing of this BCR?  Well, they were trying to impose I think two days a  week or three days a week.  I forgot.  Pardon?  They were only allowed to fish two or three days a  week.  They tried to impose that regulation on them.  So that's how they had a meeting with them and they  didn't want to close it, they want to follow that,  close it.  Was there a complete closure at the time this was  passed or what kind of closure was it?  They were trying to allow only two days a week or  something and the people didn't agree to that.  And  they were not going to follow it anyways, they said,  so they sat down and made an agreement that the  fishery have to agree to the terms that they going to  be open seven days a week.  How long was it open seven days?  I just couldn't remember.  That's the same thing after 1  2  3  Q  4  A  5 MS.  KOENI  6  7  8 MR.  RUSH:  9  10  11  12 THE  COURT  13 MR.  RUSH:  14  Q  15  16  A  17  18  Q  19  A  20  Q  21  22  23  A  24  Q  25  A  26  Q  27  28  A  29  Q  30  A  31  Q  32  A  33  Q  34  A  35  Q  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  A  43  Q  44  45  46  A  47  Q  3956  the date ends, they continue their fishing but they  don't renew that.  This is 1974, do you know what happened in 1975?  No.  I couldn't remember.  jSBERG:   Before we venture into this new topic,  I wonder how it relates to cross-examination, what  happened in 1975?  I think it's material to know how long this BCR is  supposed to have lasted.  It appears to be passed in  the middle of July of '74.  Might have lasted a day,  might have lasted 20 years.  :  I think you can ask the witness that question.  Mr. Michell, are you aware of how long this BCR was in  effect?  For a year.  They come back every year, different  regulation that they try to enforce.  Who is the they that you are referring to?  Department of Fisheries.  Do you know whose writing it is on that, the band  council resolution at the end of the typewritten  portion?  Groot.  Groot?  Yeah.  And it says that he is a fishery officer.  What else  does it say there, I. C. Babine?  Morice sub district.  Do you know Mr. Groot?  Yes.  Who is he?  He lives in Smithers, I think.  Do you know who he works for?  Department of Fisheries.  All right.  You were asked some questions about a  document called More Stories of the Moricetown Indians  of northwestern B. C. and you were asked about one of  the persons who is identified as a researcher in 1978.  In 1978, Mr. Michell, were you aware of what -- that  Brian Michell, to whom you were referred, was in Grade  9 and 16 years of age?  Yes.  Ruby Michell, who is a person under the heading of  researcher, were you aware that in 1978 she was 20  years old and in Grade 11?  Yes.  And Patsy Alfred, were you aware that in 1978 that she 3957  1 was in Grade 12 and 18 years of age?  2 A   Yes.  3 THE COURT:  She was in Grade 12 and 18?  4 MR. RUSH:  Yes.  5 THE COURT:  Thank you.  6 MR. RUSH:  7 Q   Now, with respect to the document that I think was  8 referred to you by Ms. Koenigsberg concerning the  9 trappers, some Moricetown trappers, this is Exhibit  10 306, in your testimony you made mention of a Mr. or  11 Ms. Ray Mclntyre.  Do you know who that person is?  12 A   Yes.  13 Q   Who is that person?  14 A   He is the guy that looks after special ARDA in Prince  15 George.  16 Q   Do you know what his official position was?  17 A   I don't know what the title is.  18 Q   Okay.  You said that he recommended that only your  19 name be used with reference to the application?  20 A   Yes, he did.  21 Q   And why was that so, was that indicated to you or what  22 was your understanding about why you were the person  23 whose name was going to be -- put that forward?  24 A   I don't know whether it's the paperwork or whatever,  25 and on his side of it, you know, he said that it would  26 be better if we went that way instead of dealing with  27 all the individuals.  28 Q   All right.  Now, you also indicated with reference to  2 9 the documents that were shown to you by Ms.  30 Koenigsberg regarding this special ARDA application,  31 that there was a letter sent to Mr. Dobson that was a  32 covering letter.  With reference to the -- with  33 reference to the -- I am not sure if it was to the  34 claims of the band or the claims of the hereditary  35 chiefs, do you recall that testimony?  36 A   Yes.  37 Q   Can you just tell his lordship what did you mean by  38 that, what was your understanding when you made  39 reference to that covering letter?  40 A   Like, you know, we -- it wouldn't affect in any way  41 our court case, our land claim.  This is the covering  42 letter that I was talking about that should be  43 included in this application.  44 Q   Okay.  45 MS. KOENIGSBERG:   Before we explore this any further, my lord,  46 I think perhaps we should canvass the possibility that  47 this letter, which the witness did make reference to 1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  THE COURT  MR. RUSH:  THE COURT  3958  during the course, in the course of my cross-  examination on the documents, that we had in our  possession, it should be produced.  It's a document,  apparently, thought relevant by this witness.  It's  not one which I can tell your lordship, and I think my  friends are aware, is part of the file which was  listed by the federal government and was in the  possession of the federal government and, if it  exists, in my submission, we shouldn't be hearing  about it in this way, it should be produced.  All I  can tell you it's a -- it's not part of the file that  is available.  I produced the relevant parts of the  file to this witness.  And, in particular, the  covering letter which was with the application.  :  Mr. Rush?  Well, I must say that I have a letter, I don't know  if it was the same letter that Mr. Michell is making  reference to and I didn't know of it its existence  until just a few seconds ago.  I would be happy to  disclose this letter.  It's just come to my attention  now.  And I don't know if it's the same letter to  which Mr. Michell is making reference.  :  Well, it's time for the morning adjournment anyway.  Why don't you show it to your friends and we will  resume this in a few minutes.  (Proceedings adjourned for short recess)  I hereby certify the foregoing to be  a true and accurate transcript of the  proceedings herein to the best of my  skill and ability.  Wilf Roy  Official Reporter  (PROCEEDINGS RESUMED AT 11:30) THE  THE  MR.  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21 MR.  22 MS.  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32 THE  33  34 MS.  35  36  37  38  39  40  41 THE  42 MS.  43  44  45  46  47  REGISTRAR:  COURT  RUSH:  Q  3959  Order in Court.  Ready to proceed, my Lord.  All right, Mr. Rush.  Thank you.  Regarding Exhibit 306, Mr. Michell, which  is the letter dated February 6th, 1987 from yourself  to Mr. Robin M. Dodson, enclosing the offer of  financial assistance to expand the trapping activity  of members of the Moricetown Indian Band, Mr. Michell,  what has happened with this offer of financial  assistance?  Has there been any resolution?  A   They are still -- Victor's still working on it now,  and they said that the suppliers are waiting for his  money, like for the snowmobile, and he's been asking  me when he said that the money is going to -- said  that the money is going to come in, the cheque is  supposed to be issued in my name and the supplier  knows that.  Q   Has any of this happened?  A   Not yet.  RUSH:  Those are all my questions.  KOENIGSBERG:  With respect, I think my friend should put the  letter which he showed us at the break to this  witness.  It obviously is a letter or may very well be  a letter that this witness was referring to when he  said -- when I put the covering letter to him and he  said there's another covering letter, and we went on  at some length trying to figure out if it had  something to do with this matter, and in my submission  that's a document which this witness certainly thought  was relevant to my questions.  COURT:  Well, is it a document that should have been  produced?  KOENIGSBERG:  Well, in my submission it should have been, as  should the file have been produced by -- or at least  the parts of the file that are obviously in my  friend's client's possession, but in fact, the federal  government produced the file containing the parts of  it which they had at the time.  It relates to the  Moricetown trappers and --  COURT:  Is this a letter written by the witness?  KOENIGSBERG:  It's a — I don't think — I didn't notice  actually who signed it, but it is a letter written  with reference to exactly what this witness told us in  cross-examination.  I believe it was Victor Jim.  I  believe the witness told us that he had been trying to  remind Victor Jim to write a letter, and that it 3960  1 related to the offer and acceptance of this financial  2 assistance package, and that it had something to do  3 with the witness' concerns about that they had agreed  4 to obey the federal, provincial and municipal  5 regulations, and it was in that context that the  6 witness brought up another letter which had something  7 to do with that.  This letter which my friend showed  8 me had something to do with it.  9 THE COURT:  I'm the only one in the courtroom probably who  10 hasn't read the letter.  It seems to me that if this  11 is a letter that should have been produced, and if  12 Miss Koenigsberg says if it had been produced and if I  13 had it during my cross-examination, then it should --  14 I would have put it to the witness, then I think  15 indeed it should have been put to the witness.  If it  16 is a letter that should have been produced previously,  17 then Mr. Rush is in the position to decide whether or  18 not to put the letter to the witness in  19 re-examination.  Now, can counsel tell me whether it  20 is a letter that should have been produced by the  21 plaintiffs, or I suppose it's by the plaintiffs.  22 MS. KOENIGSBERG:  It's very difficult to — it's an odd  23 situation.  24 THE COURT:  Well, if it's that odd I'm not disposed to waste a  25 lot of time over it.  26 MS. KOENIGSBERG:  In my submission, the date of that letter is  27 very relevant to my cross-examination of this witness  28 and clears up the issue which one could interpret as  29 having been left hanging in the cross-examination, and  30 for that reason my friend, in my submission, having  31 brought it up and asked this witness in re-examination  32 about it ought to produce that letter, yes.  It's  33 of -- you could not say that letter is not relevant to  34 the issue which was raised in cross-examination and to  35 the trapping activity and the views of the witness.  36 MR. GOLDIE:  Well, I have seen the letter, it should have been  37 produced if it had been received at the time Miss  38 Koenigsberg got the file.  39 THE COURT:  What do you say, Mr. Rush, about whether it should  40 have been produced or not?  41 MR. RUSH:  Well, my Lord, I am getting a never-ending stream of  42 documents from the federal government which they think  43 are relevant.  I don't think that everything that  44 comes on their document list is relevant, and I don't  45 accept the proposition that every piece of paper that  46 are generated by the Wet'suwet'en people is relevant.  47 I don't think that I could have anticipated that my 1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  MR.  MR. RUSH  THE  MR.  MS.  3961  learned friend would have raised the issue of the  special application.  I suspect that there might be  other documents of a similar kind which I don't know  anything about which I don't know if it's ever going  to be raised, and simply by raising it it doesn't  become relevant, as you would expect from Mr. Goldie's  submission, that is by its existence it's relevant.  I  don't accept that proposition one bit.  GOLDIE:  I don't think I said that, with respect.  I said if  it had been in the file at the time Miss Koenigsberg  received the file it should have been disclosed.  Well, I don't know anything about what's in the  federal government's file.  I say that I was under no  obligation whatsoever to disclose this document.  I  didn't even know it existed, and frankly, I think I  have a lot of doubt about whether or not the document  exchanged between Mr. Dodson and Mr. Michell is  relevant, but I say this:  That it's my choice, with  respect, to determine whether or not to put a document  to the witness.  In my submission, the evidence of a  witness is what he knows and that's all that he knows,  as I understand his evidence, and I don't feel that  the court -- that I can put this document to him.  It's not a document of his making.  And I don't think  we, as the plaintiffs, are under any obligation to  search out this document in the Moricetown Band's  file.  It's a letter written by Mr. Jim on the letterhead  of the Moricetown Band Council?  Yes.  KOENIGSBERG:  My Lord, I don't know if it helps you, but  here's the difficulty.  In cross-examination yesterday  this letter seems to have come up in my  cross-examination.  I asked the question, he mentioned  a covering letter.  I thought he was referring to the  February 6th covering letter, which in fact I put  before him.  Page 3939:  I believe it is on the first page.  Is this your covering letter that you  have signed dated February 6, 1987?  No, a different one.  You have another letter?  Yes.  And the project is not  completed yet so there is another  letter.  You haven't sent it yet?  COURT  RUSH:  A  Q  A 3962  1 A I think it is sent to Mclntyre  2 already.  3 Q Does it vary the terms and  4 conditions?  5 A No, it is that a covering letter  6 stating that this wouldn't interfere  7 with our land claims.  8 Q I see.  Just so I can understand,  9 when you signed the agreement --  10 A Yes.  11 Q -- February 6, 1987, you understood  12 that you were agreeable to all  13 of the conditions for the funding  14 including that you would abide by all  15 the federal, provincial and municipal  16 regulations relative to trapping?  17 A Yeah, that's the reason why they got  18 that letter.  19 Q You have sent another letter since  20 then?  21 A It was decided there.  It was  22 discussed at that time that there  23 would be a covering letter.  24 Q Who would have discussed that?  25 A All of us trappers and Victor was  26 supposed to write up that covering  27 letter which he told me he did and I  2 8 kept reminding him.  29 Q It wasn't something that went with or  30 near the time of the February 6th  31 letter, it was sometime later?  32 A Well, he was supposed to at the time  33 and he told me he did.  34 Q So you are not sure when it was sent?  35 A It could be in the hands of Mclntyre.  36 MS. KOENIGSBERG:  Those are all my questions."  37  38 I couldn't quite understand, not knowing what we were  39 dealing with, whether there is a letter or was a  40 letter which went to their agreement, and he's saying  41 well, there was supposed to be one, well, maybe there  42 was one.  We couldn't quite get when it went.  In my  43 submission, the letter that my friend has shown me  44 clears up that mystery and for that reason should be  45 put to the witness.  46 THE COURT:  Well, the letter that the witness identified  47 yesterday, Exhibit 306, is dated February 6th, 1987. 3963  I suppose discovery of documents between the parties  had taken place before that time?  KOENIGSBERG:  It's been on notice.  That letter — the  covering letter there, was in the file when I received  it —  COURT:  In the file from your client?  KOENIGSBERG:  Yes.  And was listed under the eight  thousands, which puts us several months ago.  I can't  tell the court precisely when it was listed, but it  would probably have been late fall if it's in the  eight thousands.  That there was no further covering  letter, yes.  If the letter that I saw today in the  courtroom had been in that file, of course I would  have produced it, and of course I would have put it to  this witness, particularly when he said there was  another covering letter that I feel is relevant to the  issue that you're asking me about.  THE COURT:  Well, I take it that you had received production of  your friend's documents before the time when this  letter was delivered.  KOENIGSBERG:  Well, as your Lordship is aware, production of  documents for all parties is ongoing through, during  witnesses by the plaintiffs as well as the defendants.  It certainly was not on my friend's list, neither was  the trapper assistance file, nor any reference to it,  neither are the Band Council resolutions.  And we --  of course that's the issue between us as to its  relevance, but in my submission, and this is, in my  submission, the only important part, there is lack of  clarity, for want of a better word, about when a  covering letter dealing with -- without prejudice to  their land claims went, and there is the suggestion  left from my cross-examination from this witness  yesterday that it went at or about the time of that  February 6th letter, and I think for that reason at  least the letter ought to go in.  COURT:  Well, I have the problem now of having to deal with  a letter of some reasonably recent origin.  I'm not  sure -- oh, I'm sorry, there's one thing I want to  find out before I do what I think I ought to do, and  that is to ask you, Mr. Rush, what is it that -- what  was the question you asked the witness this morning in  re-examination that led to production of this letter?  RUSH:  Well, it wasn't produced from the witness, it was  handed to me --  COURT:  But you raised the subject.  RUSH:  What the question -- what was the covering letter  MS.  THE  7 MS.  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  1  19  20  21 MS.  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37 THE  38  39  40  41  42  43  4 4 MR.  45  4 6 THE  4 7 MR. 1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  3964  that he was referring to.  THE COURT:  Yes.  And you then produced the letter.  MR. RUSH:  No, I didn't.  You mean produced to the witness?  No.  I didn't produce it to the witness.  It was  handed to me and I looked at it and I showed it to my  friends.  THE COURT:  And then decided not to proceed with it.  MR. RUSH:  I don't know what's the covering letter that this  witness is referring to.  I can't -- it's not of his  making, so I don't think that --  THE COURT:  Well, in this circumstance -- in this situation, in  view of the fact that a letter has arisen which Mr.  Rush has now shown to his learned friends and which  might have been produced as part of an ongoing  exchange of documents and I make no ruling there about  that one way or the other, it seems the matter, having  been brought up again this morning by Mr. Rush,  although not pursued, it seems to me that I ought not  to require Mr. Rush to put the document in, or put it  to the witness, rather that I ought to allow Miss  Koenigsberg to reopen her cross-examination and  determine whether the document in question is the  letter to which the witness referred or not, because I  think his evidence hangs somewhat uncertain and  incomplete the way it now stands.  If you wish, Miss  Koenigsberg I will allow you to reopen your  cross-examination on this one subject.  CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS. KOENIGSBERG:  Q   Thank you.  Mr. Michell, I'm going to show you a  letter which was produced this morning by your  counsel.  Would you tell me and tell the court if that  is the letter that you were reminding Victor Jim to  send to Mr. Mclntyre as the covering letter?  A  Well, I didn't read it before, but it was supposed to  be done right at the beginning along with these  letters, so it should have been done.  This could be  the one.  Q   That is the contents of that letter are what you  discussed?  A   The intention, our intention.  Q   Yes.  A  Was —  Q   And you told us yesterday?  A   Yeah, without prejudice.  Q   And that you were reminding and reminding Mr. Jim to  send a letter to Mr. Mclntyre? 1  A  2  Q  3  A  4  5  6  7  Q  8  9  A  10  Q  11  A  12  Q  13  14  A  15  Q  16  A  17  Q  18  19  20  A  21  22  Q  23  A  24  Q  25  A  26  Q  27  A  28  Q  29  30  31  A  32  33  Q  34  A  35  MS.  KOENI  36  37  38  39  THE  COURT  40  MR.  RUSH:  41  THE  COURT  42  43  44  45  46  THE  REGIS1  47  THE  COURT  3965  Yes.  Is that right?  Before we first started to apply for the money for  trappers, that they all agreed, you know, that they  are going to do it without prejudice to the land  claim.  And what is the date of that letter, the one in front  of you?  January 29th.  What year?  1988.  And did you know that that letter was sent on or about  the time of that date?  No, I don't.  No one told you?  No.  Mr. Jim or anyone else,  - that a letter like this  Did anyone suggest to you,  that the letter was sent -'ñ†  was sent before?  No, I don't -- of course he said he's working on it,  and he did.  When you reminded him he said he was working on it?  Yes.  He never did tell you --  No.  That he had sent the letter you were discussing?  No.  And your best evidence is although you hadn't seen  this letter before this looks like the kind of letter  you would have expected him to send?  Well, I expected that you might produce that too when  you showed me this.  You thought it already had been sent?  Yes.  jSBERG:  Thank you.  I would like to mark this as the  next exhibit on the basis of what identification this  witness was able to make as to the date and the  content.  There's only the one.  :  Yes.  I think it -- well, I should hear Mr. Rush.  I don't have any submission.  :  Yeah.  I think it could be marked, but subject to  the qualifications put by the witness that this could  be the one, and he expressed sentiments that he said  he had requested it to be sent earlier, and I think on  that basis it can be marked as Exhibit 306A.  rRAR:  306A.  :  Exhibit 306A. 1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  THE  MR.  THE  MR.  COURT:  RUSH:  COURT:  RUSH:  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  3966  EXHIBIT 306A - Letter dated January 29, 1988  Any further re-examination, Mr. Rush?  Just a moment, please.  Thank you.  Yes, just one or two questions arising, my Lord.  Mr.  Michell, in the passage that was read to you by Miss  Koenigsberg from the transcript, page 3939, the  question was at line 29:  "Q      I see.  Just so I can understand,  when you signed the agreement --"  I think that was the Exhibit 306:  "A  Q  Yes.  -- February 6th, 1987 you understood  that you were agreeable to all  of the conditions for the funding  including that you would abide  by all federal, provincial and  municipal regulations relative to  trapping?  Yeah, that's the reason why they got  that letter.  You have sent another letter since  then?  It was decided there.  It was  discussed at that time that there  would be a covering letter."  "It was discussed at that time", what  referring to?  It was even before this letter was written.  And the letter that you have in your hand is Exhibit  306, that's dated February 6, 1987?  Yes.  So sometime before then you had those discussions?  Yes.  The meeting at the Moricetown Rec Centre.  All right.  And do you remember that time, do you know  when it was?  No.  I don't know the date.  No.  But was it at that time that you understood there  would be another letter sent by Victor Jim, was it at  that time that it was you understood that a letter  similar to the one that's been --  A  Q  A  When you said  time were you 1  A  2  Q  3  A  4  5  MR.  RUSH:  6  THE  COURT  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  A  17  18  THE  COURT  19  A  20  THE  COURT  21  A  22  23  THE  COURT  24  A  25  THE  COURT  26  A  27  28  THE  COURT  29  30  A  31  32  33  THE  COURT  34  35  MR.  RUSH:  36  THE  COURT  37  38  MR.  GRANT  39  40  41  42  43  44  THE  COURT  45  MR.  GRANT  46  THE  COURT  47  MR.  GRANT  3967  Yes.  Advanced here would be sent?  Yes.  He was put in charge, you know, to do all the  dealings for the trappers.  Thank you, Mr. Michell.  :  All right.  Mr. Michell, just one question I'm still  up in the air about, and I just want to make sure I  understand your evidence.  You said to Mr. Rush just a  few minutes ago before the adjournment that nothing  has happened with respect to this agreement about  funding for trappers, but you said suppliers are  waiting for money for snowmobiles.  I'm not sure if by  that you mean that they haven't been paid for them but  they have been delivered or that there's no delivery  until the money comes, or what the situation is?  Well, the dealers have given some of the snowmobiles  out and still waiting for the money.  :  So some of the snowmobiles had been delivered?  Yes.  :  And none of them had been paid for?  No.  Not to the dealers yet.  There's government  trappers that paid their share.  :  They paid their 15 percent or something like that?  Yes.  :  All right.  But they never got the money from this outfit, the  ARDA.  :  And those funds would be paid directly to the  dealers?  Yeah, with my name on it too.  He said he would keep  after me, he's losing a lot of money on interest  already.  :  I'm sure that's so.  All right.  Nothing further  from counsel?  No, my Lord.  :  All right.  Thank you, Mr. Michell, you're excused,  thank you.  : My Lord, while Mr. Rush is getting organized, the  next witness is Mrs. Sarah Layton, and if you could  come up, and before her examination proceeds I just  ask leave to amend the style of cause, which is not  actually in the trial record because it's only the  endorsement on the writ that's in the trial record.  Yes.  But the 40th-named plaintiff is Knedebeas.  Paragraph 40?  Yeah.  It would be paragraph 40, but it's not -- the 1  2  3  4  5  THE  COURT  6  MR.  GRANT  7  THE  COURT  8  MR.  GRANT  9  10  11  THE  COURT  12  13  MR.  GRANT  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  THE  COURT  23  24  25  26  MR.  ADAMS  27  28  29  30  THE  COURT  31  32  THE  REGIS  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  THE  COURT  40  MR.  ADAMS  41  42  THE  COURT  43  MR.  ADAMS  44  Q  45  46  47  A  3968  amendment I wish to make would only be in the style of  cause, and that is Sarah Layton in the style of cause  is spelled L-a-i-g-h-t-o-n and it should be  L-a-y-t-o-n.  I also ask Mr. George Holland to attend.  And is Sarah spelled S-a-r-a or --  S-a-r-a-h.  And L-a-y-t-o-n.  I ask for that amendment.  Both of my friends --  Mrs. Layton has been examined, they're all aware of  this .  No objection?  All right, that amendment will go.  Thank you.  Secondly, my Lord, is that it's my understanding  that Mrs. Layton will require the assistance for part  of her evidence of Mr. George Holland, although she's  not in the situation of Mrs. Alfred where all of her  evidence will be given in Wet'suwet'en language.  And  thirdly, that now that my colleagues have arranged  themselves I wish to introduce for the court Mr.  Murray Adams, who is counsel, and Mr. Murray Adams  will be leading the evidence of Mrs. Layton.  Yes.  All right, thank you.  I wonder if I can  inquire of counsel, are the books and documents we've  been using for the last several witnesses going to be  used still, or can I --  There's one exhibit that I have identified to the  registrar that I expect to refer to sometime this  afternoon, and there are no others that I anticipate  using.  Yes, all right.  Thank you, Mr. Adams,  ready.  Mr. Holland has been sworn.  'RAR:  Yes.  I just caution Mr. Holland,  under oath.  When you're  you're still  SARAH LAYTON, a witness called on  behalf of the Plaintiffs, having been  duly sworn, testifies as follows:  :  Sit down please, Mrs. Layton.  :  My Lord, Mr. Grant has handed up some additions to  the word list.  :  Yes, thank you.  Which are words that will arise in the course of Mrs.  Layton's evidence.  Mrs. Layton, you hold the  Wet'suwet'en chief's name Knedebeas; is that correct?  Yes. MR.  MS.  THE  9  10  11 MR.  12  13  14 MR.  15 THE  16 MR.  17 THE  18  19 MR.  2 0 THE  21 MR.  22  23 THE  24 THE  2 5 MR.  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  4 6 THE  47 THE  3969  Q   And that means, I'm told, means "Nighthawk"?  A   Yes.  Q   And the clan that you belong to, what's that called?  A   Yex T'sa wil k'us.  ADAMS:  And is that the —  KOENIGSBERG:  I'm sorry, I can't hear the witness at all.  I  wonder if it is possible for the person to speak up,  and if we're going to have a problem maybe I'll move.  COURT:  Will you speak up as best you can, please, so that  we can all hear what you say.  ADAMS:  Q   And the house that you belong to is Yex T'sa wil k'us?  A   Yes.  ADAMS  COURT  ADAMS  COURT  And that's the dark house?  I'm sorry?  That's the dark house.  Dark house, all right.  And the name of the house  again, please?  ADAMS:  In Wet'suwet'en?  COURT:  Whatever the witness said.  ADAMS:  The witness agreed that Yex T'sa wil k'us is the  Wet'suwet'en name of her house.  TRANSLATOR:  650.  COURT:  Thank you.  ADAMS:  Q   And Sarah Layton is your married name; is that  correct?  Yes.  And your maiden name is Sarah Seymour?  Yes.  And you were born on January 10th, 1931 in Houston?  Yes.  Mrs. Layton, did you attend school at any time in your  childhood or since?  No.  I did start, you know, start about a month, and  my grandmother took us back to the trapline -- I mean  the territory.  And how old were you at that time?  I was about three years old, three or four years old.  kindergarten stuff.  Where was that?  In Hagwilget.  And for how long did you attend school at Hagwilget?  It was about November -- no -- October, November, just  a month, and then went back to X el ben.  TRANSLATOR:  363.  COURT:  368?  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A 3970  1 THE TRANSLATOR:  363.  2 MR. ADAMS:  3 Q   And do you read or write English?  4 A   No.  5 Q   Now, you've talked about a brief period when you went  6 to school in Hagwilget, and then you said, as I  7 understood your evidence, that you left Hagwilget.  8 Where did you go?  9 A   Back to X el ben.  10 Q   Pack Lake is the English name for X el ben?  11 A   Yes.  12 Q   Can you describe for the court from that time on what  13 was the routine that your life followed -- oh, perhaps  14 I can start by asking you, who were you there with?  15 A  Who did I live with?  16 Q   Yes?  17 A  My parents, and grandmother, and grandpa, and  18 grandmother, and my mom and dad is Mary Seymour and  19 Enoch Seymour in X el ben.  20 Q   Were there other people who lived there with you?  21 A  My grandparents, and my uncle, and my brother, Sam,  22 Ben, and Cecilia and Elizabeth.  23 Q   Who was Cecilia and Elizabeth, who were they?  24 A   They were aunties.  25 Q   Both your aunts?  26 A   Yes.  27 Q   And what was the routine that those people followed on  28 that territory and elsewhere?  29 A  When we went out in the territory we -- us, we were  30 too small to go out and do any trapping, so we stayed  31 in a log house with my mother and grandmother.  My  32 uncles and my grandpa and my brothers were the ones  33 that went out in the territory to do the trapping.  34 Q   And where did you stay during that time?  35 A   X el ben.  36 THE COURT:  Is that 363, Pack Lake?  37 THE TRANSLATOR:  Yes.  3 8 THE COURT:  Thank you.  3 9 MR. ADAMS:  40 Q   And did you live there for the entire year at that  41 time?  42 A  We stayed out in the territory trapping, except for  43 possibly three months during the summer when we went  44 to Hagwilget to put up fish and go fishing.  That is  45 when my grandmother had taken us around, our  46 grandparents.  47 Q   And was Hagwilget the only place that you would go in 3971  1 the summertime?  2 A   If we didn't go to Hagwilget we would go to Moricetown  3 to go fishing, and also we would go there for  4 potlatches.  5 Q   Did you spend time in Houston at that time as well?  6 A  We used to stop and stay at Houston for a short period  7 of time, because my grandmother and them had a log  8 house there.  9 Q   And how long would those periods be in Houston?  10 A   Between May, June and July we would be in and about  11 three, four weeks within that three, four month period  12 we would spend fishing, and the rest of the time we  13 would stop off at Houston, and then we — after that  14 we would go back out in the territory.  15 Q   And for how many years would you say that you followed  16 that routine, dividing your time between X el ben and  17 Moricetown or Hagwilget or Houston?  18 A   Yes.  I can remember -- as far back as I can remember  19 as a little child we practised this routine, and even  20 today I still go back to Moricetown and the area to  21 put up fish and do fishing.  Nobody's ever stopped me  22 yet.  23 Q   The time in your life when you spent considerable  24 months of winter on the territory; how long did that  25 last?  26 A  When we went out in the territory trapping before  27 Christmas we would trap for marten, squirrels, and  28 weasel, and then towards the springtime we would trap  29 for beaver, at which they would smoke the beaver meat  30 to use at a potlatch for the summer months, muskrats  31 also.  Then -- we didn't have no mice to trap them  32 days.  33 Q   I want to ask you in a moment about what you did and  34 where, but I'm interested in knowing for what period  35 of years, if it was a period of years, you followed  36 that routine?  37 A  Well, ever since I can remember as a little child we  38 always were out in the -- go out in the territory, and  39 1948, when my mother took sick and passed on, and then  40 after that my grandmother and my grandfather took us  41 out, me and my sister, Irene, took us out in the  42 territory.  43 Q   And did that routine that you've described continue  44 after your mother's death in the company of your  45 grandmother and others?  46 A   Even after my mother passed away my grandmother took  47 us out on the territory and was teaching us and taught 3972  1 us the ways of and the places in the territory, and  2 even right today we were still -- we still use the  3 territory.  4 Q   Mrs. Layton, the area that you have described as X el  5 ben or Pack Lake, is that also known to you as T'se  6 g'wat Lake or Poplar Lake?  7 A   That's X el ben, which is Pack Lake, and  8 Tac'ets'ol'een ben, which is Poplar Lake, and there's  9 also Gg'iis le ben, which I forget the English name  10 for it, and that's the only way I've ever heard my  11 grandmother mention the name.  12 MR. ADAMS:  Perhaps we could get a spelling and number for  13 Tac'ets'ol'een ben.  14 THE TRANSLATOR:  Tac'ets'ol'een ben is 618.  15 MR. ADAMS:  And for Gg'iis le ben.  16 THE TRANSLATOR:  Gg'iis le ben is 661.  17 THE COURT:  Those are the names of the other two lakes the  witness mentioned?  That's my understanding, my Lord.  Mrs. Layton, if I  advised you that Gg'iis le ben is also known as  Newcombe Lake, does that sound familiar to you?  Yes.  That's how they would call it in English.  You've heard that English name for Gg'iis le ben?  Yes.  2 6 THE COURT:  Which one is Newcombe Lake.  27 THE TRANSLATOR:  661.  28 MR. PLANT:  I don't have a 661 on my list, so could I trouble  29 you for your spelling, Mr. Mitchell.  30 THE COURT:  I was just given some fresh pages just a few minutes  ago.  :  Apparently Gg'iis le ben is not on that list, my  Lord.  :  My list just goes as far as 660.  Close, but not  quite.  :  So does mine.  37 THE TRANSLATOR:  Gg'iis le ben, G-g-'-i-i-s 1-e b-e-n.  38 THE COURT:  G-g-' —  39 THE TRANSLATOR: G-g-'-i-i-s 1 is underlined, e-b-e-n  4 0 THE COURT:  Thank you.  41 A   Gg'iis le ben was just a camping area, there was no  42 cabin there or anything.  That was a camp area for  43 when they went out trapping.  44 MR. ADAMS:  My Lord, I've got some exhibit binders to distribute  45 which consist of Mrs. Layton's territorial affidavit  46 and a series of photographs, which I will be putting  47 to her.  18  19 MR.  ADAMS  20  Q  21  22  23  A  24  Q  25  A  31  32  MR.  ADAMS  33  34  MR.  PLANT  35  36  THE  COURT 3973  1 THE COURT:  Thank you.  2 MR. ADAMS:  3 Q   And I wonder if the witness could be shown tab 1 of  4 that binder.  Mrs. Layton, could you look at the last  5 page of tab 1 of that affidavit, please?  Do you  6 recognize that as your signature?  7 A   Yeah.  8 Q   And you, I understand, have been taught to write your  9 name, have you?  10 A   Yes.  11 Q   Do you recall George Holland and myself reading you  12 the description of Knedebeas' territory as  13 Tac'ets'ol'een ben contained in that affidavit last  14 Wednesday?  15 A   Yes.  16 Q   Had you previously described the boundaries and the  17 landmarks of that territory to Marvin George?  18 A   Yes.  He come to visit me in Prince George, and then  19 us -- we didn't really have no maps at all, what we  20 followed was blazed.  My grandmother had blazed out  21 the territories, and that is what we used as our maps  22 and compasses.  We didn't have no maps and compasses,  23 we just used them blazes.  24 Q   But you did describe those boundaries and landmarks to  25 Marvin George, did you?  26 A   Yes.  Only places I would recognize on the map would  27 be Tac'ets'ol'een ben and Gg'iis le ben and X el ben,  28 and we stayed in the cabins while my brother, uncle  2 9 Ben and my brother Sam, and my father, and when they  30 were out on the territory chopping we stayed in the  31 log house with my grandparents, my grandmother and my  32 mother.  33 Q   Mrs. Layton, could you listen carefully to the  34 question, please.  Did you describe the boundaries as  35 you knew them in the landmarks to Marvin George?  36 A   Yes.  I told him and explained to him where the places  37 were when he was reading the map.  38 Q   Now, coming back to this affidavit that's in front of  39 you, did you understand the description of the  40 territory and the landmarks which George Holland and I  41 read to you last week?  42 A   Yes.  I understood you when you explained it to me.  43 Q   Was that description accurate, to the best of your  44 knowledge?  45 A   Yes.  46 MR. ADAMS:  My Lord, I would ask that that affidavit be marked  47 as the next exhibit, please. 3974  1 THE REGISTRAR:  What is the date?  2 MR. ADAMS:  It's February 24th, 1988.  3 THE COURT:  Thank you.  4 THE REGISTRAR:  Exhibit 307, my Lord.  5 THE COURT:  Thank you.  6 THE REGISTRAR:  Tab 1.  7  8 EXHIBIT 307 - Affidavit dated February 24, 1988  9  10 MR. ADAMS:  11 Q   Now, Mrs. Layton, I understand your grandfather died  12 in about 1952?  13 A   Yes.  My grandfather died at the cabin by  14 Tac'ets'ol'een ben, and my sister Irene and  15 grandmother was alone with my grandfather when he  16 passed away.  My uncle Ben and my brother Sam, they  17 were trapping out at Gg'iis le ben, and it would take  18 four days to travel out there and back, but my  19 grandmother and Irene, when the -- they wrapped up my  20 grandmother -- my grandfather after he passed away and  21 then they went out to get them.  It only took them two  22 days to go out there and back, whereas it's four days  23 walking.  They travelled night and day to go and get  24 Sam and Ben.  At that time it was -- logging had  25 already started in the area.  My grandmother and Irene  26 tried to stop the trucks so they can send a message,  27 but nobody would stop for them at that time.  28 Q   From the time that your grandfather died did the  29 routine that you've described of the places you lived  30 and the things that you did, did that change?  31 A   Nothing has ever changed at all, we always live the  32 same fashion.  Just because we learned this as  33 children doesn't mean we forget it now.  It will  34 always be the same.  35 Q   After your grandfather died did you find that you were  36 spending more time in Houston than you did before?  37 A   Yes.  My grandmother went out trapping out in X el ben  38 by herself because I had to look after — Irene and  39 Lucy were going to school, so I spent more time in  40 Houston then.  41 Q   Who are Irene and Lucy?  42 A   That's my sisters.  43 Q   And did you continue to go to Moricetown in the  44 summertime?  45 A   Yes.  We continued on going to Moricetown every  4 6 s umme r.  47 Q   And what did you do there? 3975  1 A  We would go fishing and make smoked salmon.  We also  2 camped.  3 MR. ADAMS:  My Lord, that might be a convenient place to stop.  4 THE COURT:  Yes, all right.  We'll adjourn until two o'clock.  5 Thank you.  6 THE REGISTRAR:  Order in court.  Court will adjourn until 2:00.  7  8 (PROCEEDINGS ADJOURNED AT 12:30)  9  10 I hereby certify the foregoing to be  11 a true and accurate transcript of the  12 proceedings herein transcribed to the  13 best of my skill and ability  14  15  16  17  18 Graham D. Parker  19 Official Reporter  20 United Reporting Service Ltd.  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47 1  (Pr  2  3  4  5  EXAMINATI  6  7  Q  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  A  17  18  19  Q  20  21  22  23  24  A  25  26  27  Q  28  A  29  Q  30  A  31  THE  COURT  32  MR.  ADAMS  33  THE  COURT  34  A  35  THE  COURT  36  MR.  ADAMS  37  Q  38  39  40  A  41  42  43  44  Q  45  A  46  Q  47  A  3976  (Proceedings resumed following lunch break)  SARAH LAYTON, Resumed:  ADAMS: (Continued)  Mrs .  were  Layton, this morning or earlier this afternoon we  talking about the territorial affidavit that is  at tab 1 of the binder that's before you.  I just  wanted to ask you another question or two about that.  You have testified that the boundaries and the  landmarks identified there were read back to you and  you agreed with them.  I just want to be sure, is it  right to say that the entire affidavit was read to  you?  Yes, it was read to me and that is so it was right  when it was read to me and that's the way it's going  to stay.  Now before lunch we were talking about the time after  your grandfather's death in about 1952.  I would like  you to think about a somewhat later time, after 1970,  and that, I understand, is when you moved to Prince  George; is that right?  Yes, when we first moved to Prince George, it was  because my husband managed to get a job there, that is  why we moved there.  And what was his job there?  Skidder operator.  And who was he working for?  Anlock Investment.  I am sorry, Anlock?  One word?  My understanding is A-n-1-o-c-k, my lord.  And the second word?  Investment.  Investment.  Thank you.  Now, in the time since 1970  mainly in Prince George, do  Moricetown in the summer?  I always go to see Doris, Helen or Warner in  Moricetown.  Whenever I feel like it I can go there  and especially in the summer months,  to go fishing and put up fish.  And Doris is Doris Michell?  Yes.  And she is your cousin?  Yes.  that you have been living  you continue to go to  I always go there 1  Q  2  A  3  Q  4  A  5  Q  6  A  7  Q  8  9  A  10  Q  11  12  13  14  15  16  A  17  Q  18  A  19  20  Q  21  A  22  Q  23  A  24  25  26  27  Q  28  29  THE  COURT  30  THE  TRANS  31  THE  COURT  32  33  A  34  35  THE  COURT  36  MR.  ADAMS  37  38  THE  COURT  39  MR.  ADAMS  40  41  THE  COURT  42  43  MR.  ADAMS  44  Q  45  46  THE  COURT  47  MR.  ADAMS  3977  And Helen is Helen Mitchell?  Yes.  And she is also your cousin?  Yes.  And Warner is Warner William and he is your cousin?  Yes.  Do you continue to make that trip to see those people  to the present time?  Yes.  Now, Mrs. Layton, I would like to take you back a bit  on to the Pack Lake territory and you gave some  evidence earlier today about the various places you  stayed on that territory when you were smaller.  And  it's my understanding first of all that there was a  cabin at Pack Lake; is that right?  Yes.  And whose cabin was that?  My grandfather and my father they built that cabin for  us to use in the wintertime.  And do you know when it was built?  I was pretty young at the time.  And is it still there?  That cabin has deteriorated but the only cabin left  now at Tl'ok Wa Coo, and some people had used the  cabin and they fixed the roof up and that's the only  one that's still standing up now.  Could you turn to the second tab in the binder in  front of you?  :  I didn't get the name of the place.  LATOR:  It's 486.  :  You say someone has fixed the roof and is living in  it?  Some people that lived there had fixed the roof but  there is nobody living there now.  :  Thank you.  :  That was, with respect, I understand to be the cabin  at Tl'ok Wa Coo which I haven't come to yet.  :  That's number 486.  :  Yes, but that's not the same as the cabin at Pack  Lake.  :  Yes.  And gather that it sort of deteriorated. The  only cabin that's left is 486.  :  I think we are going to discover that.  Could you look at the picture that's now open in front  of you.  Could you tell me where that's taken.  :  This is tab —?  :  Tab 2, my lord. 3978  A   That's, what you see remains of there, is a cabin  where my sister Irene was born in and that cabin was  built by my grandfather and what you see is what's  left of it.  MR.  8 THE  9 THE  10 MR.  11  12  13  14  15  16 MR.  17  11  ADAMS  Q  A  COURT  TRANSLATOR  ADAMS:  Q  And where is that?  Xel ben.  Is that Pack Lake?  Yes.  A  ADAMS  THE COURT  Can you say about when that would have been taken,  that picture?  Last year, it was -- that could have been last year.  That's Doris standing and they always go up there and  they are taking pictures.  Could I have that marked as the next exhibit,  please?  Yes.  19 THE  20  21  22  2 3 MR.  24  25  26  27 THE  2 8 THE  2 9 MR.  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43 THE  44  4 5 MR.  46  47  REGISTRAR:  Exhibit 308, my lord, tab 2,  (EXHIBIT 30E  PHOTOGRAPH)  ADAMS:  Q   Now, there is another photograph which I understand is  already Exhibit 216, I wonder if that could be put to  the witness, please?  REGISTRAR:  Tab 13, my lord, of the red book.  COURT:  ADAMS:  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  COURT  A  ADAMS  Q  I see.  Thank you.  Can you say where that picture is taken?  That picture is taken at Xel ben.  That's a picture of  a graveyard where my brothers and my sister are buried  at.  And can you say when that picture would have been  taken?  I don't know when that picture was taken but it looks  like it was in the springtime.  Who is it who is shown in the picture?  Dan.  Can you tell by looking whether it was a short time  ago or a long time ago from Dan's age?  I couldn't say.  That's Dan Michell?  Yeah.  And who are -- what are the names of your brothers  that are buried there? 1  A  2  Q  3  A  4  Q  5  A  6  7  Q  8  A  9  Q  10  A  11  Q  12  13  14  A  15  16  17  18  Q  19  20  A  21  22  23  24  25  Q  26  A  27  28  29  Q  30  A  31  Q  32  A  33  Q  34  35  A  36  37  38  39  THE  COURT  40  41  THE  TRANS  42  THE  COURT  43  MR.  ADAMS  44  45  THE  COURT  46  MR.  ADAMS  47  Q  3979  There is Bobby, Andrew and Maggie.  Maggie was your sister?  Yes.  Is there anyone else you know of who is buried there?  As far as I know, I know gramma got one buried there  but she never told me about it.  She had a child buried there?  Yes, a baby.  What about your aunt Cecilia?  Oh, she is buried in Moricetown.  And can you tell the court where that picture is,  where the graveyard is in relation to the cabin we  were just looking at?  Yes, that graveyard in relationship to the cabin, but  there has been a road been built through there between  the cabin and the graveyard, pointing to the  right-hand side of the picture.  Can you say how far in feet it would be from the cabin  to the graveyard?  It's not all that far away.  When we were small we  played in front of the cabin and it was just across  the way, so -- but since the road has been put in  there it goes right between the cabin and the  graveyard.  And what was the road for?  It was put in there for the purpose of logging and  where we used to trap it's all been logged out, it's  all been damaged.  Can you say when the road was put through?  '51.  That's 1951?  Yeah.  Now, I'd like to go from Tl'ok Wa Coo to Xel ben, is  there a cabin there?  We had a cabin at Xel ben and also at Tac'ets'ol'een,  and since the logging operations there and all the  equipment working in there, all the cabins in the area  was destroyed.  :  I haven't got those names.  I am sorry.  There were  two names given.  LATOR:  Xel ben, 363 and Tac'ets'ol'een, 618.  :  Thank you.  :  And those I understand are Pack Lake and Poplar Lake  respectively.  :  All right.  Thank you.  And that was the cabin that you were talking about 1  2  3  A  4  Q  5  A  6  Q  7  A  8  9  Q  10  A  11  Q  12  13  A  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  Q  21  22  A  23  24  25  26  THE  COURT  27  MR.  ADAMS  28  Q  29  30  A  31  32  33  Q  34  35  A  36  37  38  Q  39  40  A  41  THE  COURT  42  43  44  45  THE  TRANS  46  MR.  ADAMS  47  3980  before lunch where you said your grandfather died, the  second one?  Yes.  And is it still there?  No.  Do you know what happened to it?  It's been sometime now since it either collapsed or  people working in the area probably destroyed it.  Can you say when that happened?  '55, 1955.  Around 1955.  Now a few moments ago you started to tell me about a  third log house at Tl'ok Wa Coo.  There is a third cabin there at Tl'ok Wa Coo.  I was  pretty small when they moved out -- we moved out of  there and went into Xel ben cabin but since then, that  cabin is still there yet, there was some white people  moved in there and then they fixed it up and then they  moved out again and I don't know who these people  were.  And at the time the white people were occupying that  cabin, were you prevented from going there?  Yes, Doris, Helen and Warner, when they went out there  to look things over out there, and they were there  last year but then they went out there again recently  and they were nowhere to be -- nowhere around at all.  :  I haven't got the location of this cabin.  :  I am coming to that.  Just before I get there, was there a time when you  were prevented from going to or from using that cabin?  Since I was small, there is times when we went by  there by car but I never really looked into it.  We  always went into Xel ben.  Can you tell the court where in relation to Francis  Lake is Tl'ok Wa Coo?  This cabin is right at the end of Francis Lake and  it's one or two days walk from Xel ben.  No roads in  those days.  Can you say whether it's the west end or east end of  Francis Lake?  It would be on the west side of the lake.  :  I am sorry, I still don't have the location of or  the name of this location.  There was said to be a  third cabin and a name was given but it wasn't spelled  and I don't know what it was.  Or a number.  LATOR:   486.  :  I have got 648 on the new list.  Perhaps it's been  given twice. 1  THE  COURT  2  MR.  ADAMS  3  4  THE  COURT  5  6  7  8  MR.  ADAMS  9  Q  10  11  12  A  13  14  15  16  Q  17  18  A  19  20  21  22  Q  23  24  THE  COURT  25  MR.  ADAMS  26  THE  COURT  27  28  29  30  A  31  32  MR.  ADAMS  33  THE  TRANS  34  THE  COURT  35  MR.  ADAMS  36  Q  37  38  A  39  THE  COURT  40  MR.  ADAMS  41  42  43  THE  COURT  44  THE  TRANS  45  THE  COURT  46  MR.  ADAMS  47  THE  COURT  3981  :  486.  Thank you.  :  If there is any confusion, you might have a  different spelling on the new list --  :  It's too late.  I can't put the spelling in after  you have gone on with some evidence because I have  lost all chance of keeping up.  I have to leave a  space to fill in the number.  Now, before lunch you said that the other place you  spent a good deal of time on this territory was at  Ggiis le ben, which is Newcombe Lake.  That is just a camping area, when you go through there  on a foot trail, just camp there under a tent.  And me  and Irene seen the place but they never take us out  there, take us around there at all.  Did you stay at a campsite at Ggiis le ben while other  people were coming out from there?  My father and my grandfather would go hunting or  trapping in the area and they would leave us at the  camping area there to wait for them for a day or so at  a time.  We didn't go out into the area itself.  And you said that Ggiis le ben was on a trail, where  does that trail come from?  Is this the Newcombe Lake trail?  That's right.  I just can't follow these names, and I am not even  following the evidence unless the evidence is stopped  and the name spelled or pointed out.  It just doesn't  register in my ear.  The road comes, the trail comes from Tac' ets' ol'een  ben.  :  Do we have a spelling for Ggiis le ben.  LATOR:  G-g-i-i-s, 1, underlined, -e, b-e-n.  :  That is Newcombe Lake?  :  That's Newcombe Lake.  And you said that the trail came from Tac' ets' ol'een  ben, which is Poplar Lake?  Yes.  :  What is that?  :  That's the -- my understanding of the witness's  evidence is that the trail connects Newcombe Lake and  Poplar Lake.  :  And what was the number that was just given?  LATOR:  618.  But what is that?  That's Poplar Lake.  618.  Yes.  Thank you. 2  Q  3  A  4  Q  5  A  6  7  Q  8  9  0  1  2  A  3  Q  4  A  5  Q  6  A  3982  1 MR. ADAMS:  And does the trail go beyond Poplar Lake to Pack Lake?  Yes, it is.  Is it the same trail?  Same trail go to -- Poplar Lake and Pack Lake trail is  the same, foot trail through there.  I would like to turn, Mrs. Layton, and ask you some  questions about your family.  We have run into various  members of it as we have gone through it but I want to  ask you in some order.  Your mother's name was Mary Seymour; is that right?  Yes.  And she was from Yex T'sa wil k'us?  Yes.  And that's the Dark House?  Yes.  17 MR. ADAMS:  Do we have a number or spelling for that?  18 THE TRANSLATOR:  650.  19 MR. ADAMS:  20 Q   And she was a member of the Gilseyhu clan?  21 A   Yes.  22 MR. ADAMS:  Could we have the number for that, please?  23 THE TRANSLATOR:  132.  2 4 MR. ADAMS:  25 Q   And she was born in Hagwilget?  26 A   Yes.  27 Q   Did she have a chief's name?  28 A   Noostel.  29 MR. ADAMS:  Do we have a number and spelling for Noostel?  30 THE TRANSLATOR:  188.  31 THE COURT:  Sorry?  32 THE TRANSLATOR:  188.  33 MR. ADAMS:  And your mother died when you were about 16 in about  1948?  Yeah.  Now your mother's mother, we have already talked  about, this is who you are referring to as your  grandmother in your evidence, that's Christine  Holland?  Yes.  And her name before she was married was McKenzie?  Yes.  And she too belonged to Yex T'sa wil k'us, the Dark  House?  Yes.  And she was a member also of the Gilseyhu Clan?  34  Q  35  36  A  37  Q  38  39  40  41  A  42  Q  43  A  44  Q  45  46  A  47  Q 3983  1 A   Yes.  2 MR. ADAMS:  Could we have numbers for those, please?  3 THE COURT:  I don't need those.  We had them before.  4 MR. ADAMS:  5 Q   And she was born in Hagwilget?  6 A   Yes.  7 Q   And did she have a chief's name?  8 A   Noostel.  9 Q   This is Christine Holland?  10 A   Oh, Christine Holland.  Weeliih.  11 Q   And did she also have the name Knedebeas before you?  12 A   No, my uncle Joe had that Knedebeas and when he passed  13 on gramma took the Knedebeas name so Catherine  14 William, Catherine Michell.  15 THE TRANSLATOR:  Weeliih is 483 and Knedebeas, 105.  16 MR. ADAMS:  17 Q   Christine Holland was the Knedebeas before you?  18 A   Yes.  19 Q   And she died in 1980?  20 A   Yes.  21 Q   And she was 114 years old at the time?  22 A   Yes.  23 Q   Could I ask you to look at the third tab in that  24 binder of photographs, not the red binder but the  25 black one?  Can you say who that is in the picture?  2 6 A   That's my grandmother Holland.  27 Q   That's Christine Holland?  28 A   Yes, Christine Holland.  29 Q   Can you say where that picture was taken?  30 A   In Moricetown.  My uncle Sylvester's house.  31 Q   Can you say when?  32 A   I couldn't say.  That picture would be taken when  33 Helen's girl, Sarah Jean, was just a baby then, and  34 Sarah Jean is 16 years old now.  That's when that  35 picture was taken.  36 Q   So the picture was taken about 15 years ago?  37 A   Yes.  38 Q   Is Sarah Jean the baby in the picture, to the best of  39 your knowledge?  40 A   Yes.  41 Q   Now, your mother's father, that is Christine Holland's  42 husband was Jim Holland; is that right?  43 A   Yes.  44 Q   And he has Laksilyu?  45 A   Yes.  4 6 THE COURT:  I am sorry, he was who?  47 MR. ADAMS:  He was from the Laksilyu clan. 3984  1 A   Yes.  2 THE COURT:  I am sorry, he was the witness's father?  3 MR. ADAMS:  He was her mother's father.  Christine Holland's  4 husband.  5 I have neglected to ask it to have that last  6 picture marked as an exhibit and I wonder if it could  7 be?  8 THE REGISTRAR:  309, tab 3.  9  10 (EXHIBIT 309:  PHOTOGRAPH)  11  12 MR. ADAMS:  13 Q   And Jim Holland is the person you described as having  14 died at Poplar Lake at the cabin there; is that right?  Yes.  In the 1950s?  Yes.  And your father was Enoch Seymour?  Yes.  And he was Laksilyu?  Yes.  And he was from Hagwilget?  Yes.  And your father's father, that was Big Seymour?  Yes.  Do you recall what clan he was from?  Gitdumden.  And that's Wolf?  Yes.  He was from Hagwilget?  Yes.  Now, you have been married twice, have you, you have  two sets of children?  Yeah.  And the first set -- well, let me start with, your  first husband was Frank Erickson?  Yes.  And he was a Nuu' tsenii Indian from Fort St. James?  Yes.  40 MR. ADAMS:  Could we have a number for Nuu' tsenii?  41 THE TRANSLATOR:  311.  42 MR. ADAMS:  43 Q   And your daughter's with Frank Erickson are Thelma  44 Layton?  45 A   Yes.  46 Q   And Rose Lucier?  47 A   Yes.  15  A  16  Q  17  A  18  Q  19  A  20  Q  21  A  22  Q  23  A  24  Q  25  A  26  Q  27  A  28  Q  29  A  30  Q  31  A  32  Q  33  34  A  35  Q  36  37  A  38  Q  39  A 1  Q  2  A  3  Q  4  A  5  Q  6  7  A  8  Q  9  A  10  Q  11  A  12  Q  13  A  14  Q  15  16  A  17  Q  18  A  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  Q  26  27  A  28  29  30  31  Q  32  33  A  34  35  36  37  38  3 9 MR.  ADAMS  40  41  42  43 THE  COURT  44  45  46  4 7 MR.  ADAMS  3985  And Shirley Layton?  Yes.  And Thelma and Rose both have children?  Yes.  And your children and the children of your daughters  of also members of your house?  Yes.  And your second marriage was to Fred Layton?  Yes.  And he is also called Sid Layton; is that correct?  Yes.  And he is a non-Indian?  Yes.  But I understand he is adopted into Gitdumden, Wolf  Clan?  Yes.  Can you explain to the court how that came about?  Yes, Connie Tiljoe and Gabriel Louie, when -- had  talked about adopting him at a Gitdumden feast, which  was hosted by Gitdumden people, and they gave him --  they adopted him and they were going to give him a  name also, which he hasn't completed yet.  But he is  always there to help the clan out whenever there is a  feast hosted by the Gitdumden.  And what will be involved for him in completing that  name that he started?  What would he have to do?  Every time I go to a feast, he always comes along so  when they -- the host clan seats me, then they take  Sid and they seat him amongst the Gitdumden because he  has been adopted into the Gitdumden Clan.  And apart from attending feasts, what will he have to  do to complete a name?  Yes, he will be completing it whenever he gets -- he  finishes getting ready for it and he will probably be  passing out material and other things, the way Connie  Tiljoe and Gabriel Louie talked about it and this will  happen sometime whenever he is ready at a Gitdumden  feast.  :  My lord, before I go further into the witness's  family I think it might be helpful if I distributed  her house genealogy.  Give you something of a  programme.  :  I don't know if you intended this, but you talked  about having two sets of children but I think I only  got one list.  Did you intend to give me the second  list?  :  Yes, I intend to pick the second list off the 3  Q  4  5  6  7  8  A  9  Q  0  A  1  Q  2  A  3  Q  4  3986  1 genealogy.  2 MR. ADAMS:  Mrs. Layton, before I lose track of your second set of  children, and for the court's distinction, I am on  page one of the genealogy and Mrs. Layton is listed  there as Sarah Seymour over the name Knedebeas.  So  your children with Sid Layton are Milton Layton?  Yes.  And Corrine or Corvine?  Yes.  Corrine or Corvine?  Corrine.  I believe that should be spelled C-o-r-v-i-n-e, my  lord.  15 THE COURT:  All right.  Thank you.  16 MR. ADAMS:  17 Q   And Clifford Layton?  Yes.  And Fred?  Yes.  And Darlene Layton?  Yes.  And Corvine and Ed Miller have children?  Yes.  And those are Mellisa, Nicole and Holly Miller?  Yes.  And are they members of your house?  Yes.  And you have talked about your brothers, you had a  brother Alex, who is now deceased?  Yes.  And Andrew?  Yes.  And you have a sister Irene, Irene Seymour?  Yes.  And she has children?  Yes.  And they are members of your house?  Yes.  That is Joe Joseph and Sam Joseph and Alex Joseph?  Yes.  And then your brother Robert is deceased, Bobby  Seymour?  Yes.  And Sam?  Yes.  And then you have another sister living, Elsie?  18  A  19  Q  20  A  21  Q  22  A  23  Q  24  A  25  Q  26  A  27  Q  28  A  29  Q  30  31  A  32  Q  33  A  34  Q  35  A  36  Q  37  A  38  Q  39  A  40  Q  41  A  42  Q  43  44  A  45  Q  46  A  47  Q 3987  Yes.  And she has children?  Yes.  And those are Lillian and Lorna and Gloria and Larry  and Lawrence and Beverly and Marion and Delores  Tiljoe; is that right?  Yes.  And Lillian has children?  Yes.  And Beverly?  Yes.  And Delores?  Yes.  And they are members of your house?  Yes.  And then you have a sister Lucy?  Yes.  And she has children?  Yes.  And they are Gerald and Marjorie and Marie?  Yes.  And Marjorie and Marie both have children?  Yes.  Are they members of your house?  Yes.  And you have already identified Mary Holland Seymour  at your mother?  Yes.  And Enoch Seymour as your father?  Yes.  Christine McKenzie Holland is your mother's mother?  Yes.  And Jim Holland as your mother's father?  Yes.  And Christine Holland's father, was that Dan McKenzie?  Yes.  And I understand he was -- I am sorry, that Christine  Holland's mother -- I am sorry, that Dan McKenzie was  married twice?  When my grandmother's mother died at -- when she was  giving birth to my grandmother, and then Dan McKenzie,  her father, remarried to another lady and that is --  Alexander McKenzie was my grandmother's brother and my  grandmother's mother died giving birth to my  grandmother.  46 MR. ADAMS:  Alexander McKenzie, who the witness is describing as  47 Christine Holland's brother, appears on the second  1  A  2  Q  3  A  4  Q  5  6  7  A  8  Q  9  A  10  Q  11  A  12  Q  13  A  14  Q  15  A  16  Q  17  A  18  Q  19  A  20  Q  21  A  22  Q  23  A  24  Q  25  A  26  Q  27  28  A  29  Q  30  A  31  Q  32  A  33  Q  34  A  35  Q  36  A  37  Q  38  39  40  A  41  42  43  44  45 1  2  THE  COURT  3  MR.  ADAMS  4  Q  5  A  6  7  8  9  10  Q  11  12  13  A  14  Q  15  A  16  MR.  ADAMS  17  18  19  20  THE  COURT  21  22  MR.  ADAMS  23  24  25  Q  26  27  A  28  29  Q  30  A  31  Q  32  33  34  A  35  Q  36  37  38  A  39  40  41  42  43  Q  44  A  45  Q  46  47  A  3988  page of the genealogy.  :  Yes, I see that.  Now Christine Holland also had Uncles, did she?  My grandmother was pretty young at the time when, like  my uncles, who you see on the chart, her uncles, in  them days they only used their Indian names, because  there was no white man or priest around in them days.  That's why they just had their Indian names.  And the people who were Christine Holland's mother's  brothers, were some of those people known to you by  name as James Holland?  Yes.  And Charles?  Yes.  :  My lord, I think there is a mis-transliteration on  the genealogy where you see on the second page Mr.  C-h-a-1-l-s, and that should be Charles,  C-h-a-r-1-e-s.  :  Well, are these the names she knew these people who  had Indian names or is this somebody else?  :  These are people she is saying that had Indian  names, which I am going to come to.  They all shared a  name, apparently.  And Thomas was another of Christine Holland's mother's  brothers?  I just heard my grandmother refer to him as Big Tommy  or Tom Coo.  And that was her uncle, was it?  Yes.  Was it your understanding from your grandmother that  each of her three brothers, James, Charles and Thomas,  at sometime held the name Knedebeas?  Yes.  And can you explain to the court how it would happen  that three brothers all would, at sometime, would hold  the same name?  Yes, every time there is a death amongst one of her  uncles, the name goes or is passed on to another  brother until finally all the brothers had passed on  and then it went on to -- the name Knedebeas went on  to her brother, Alexander McKenzie.  That is Christine Holland's brother?  Yes.  Now, your mother, Mary Holland, had brothers and  sisters too; is that right?  Yes. 3989  1 Q   That is, Elizabeth Holland was your mother's sister?  2 A   Yes.  3 Q   And Joe Holland was your mother's brother?  4 A   Yes.  5 Q   And Benjamin Holland was your mother's brother?  6 A   Yes.  7 MR. ADAMS:  And I am now, my lord, on pages four and five of the  8 genealogy.  9 Q   And Cecilia Holland was your mother's sister?  10 A   Yes.  11 Q   Now, starting with Elizabeth Holland, on page four on  12 the left-hand side at the top, did Elizabeth Holland  13 have a chief's name?  14 A   Tt'at'en.  15 MR. ADAMS:  Do we have a number or spelling of that, please?  16 THE COURT:  It's on the genealogy.  17 MR. ADAMS:  I am sometimes wary of the changes in spelling.  18 THE TRANSLATOR:  651.  Tt'at'en.  19 MR. ADAMS:  20 Q   And your mother's brother, Joe Holland, he had the  name Knedebeas?  Yes.  Was that before or after your grandmother?  Before my grandmother.  And your mother's brother, Benjamin Holland, did he  have a chief's name?  No.  Do you recall him ever having the name Noostel or  being told that he had the name Noostel?  Noostel, my mother had that name.  And who took the name Noostel after your mother died?  Warner William.  Thank you.  Now, coming back to the left-hand side of  page four, Elizabeth Holland, your mother's sister,  her husband was Sylvester William?  Yes.  And do you know what his chief's name was?  I can't remember it.  39 THE COURT:  Well, you can lead her on that.  4 0 MR. ADAMS:  41 Q   Was it Hagwilnegh?  42 A   Yes, that's what I tried to think.  43 Q   And then Elizabeth Holland, William and Sylvester  44 Williams children are your cousins?  45 A   Yes.  46 Q   That's Catherine Michell?  47 A   Yes.  21  22  A  23  Q  24  A  25  Q  26  27  A  28  Q  29  30  A  31  Q  32  A  33  Q  34  35  36  A  37  Q  38  A 1  Q  2  A  3  Q  4  A  5  Q  6  A  7  Q  8  A  9  Q  10  A  11  Q  12  A  13  Q  14  A  15  Q  16  17  A  18  Q  19  A  20  Q  21  22  23  A  24  Q  25  A  26  Q  27  A  28  Q  29  30  A  31  Q  32  A  33  Q  34  35  A  36  Q  37  A  38  Q  39  A  40  Q  41  42  A  43  Q  44  A  45  Q  46  A  47  Q  3990  And Warner William?  Yes.  And Helen William?  Helen Michell.  Now Helen Mitchell?  Yes.  And Doris Michell?  Yes.  And Jerry William?  Yes.  And Thelma William?  Yes.  Are those people all members of your house?  Yes.  And then Catherine Michell and Dan Michell have  children?  Yes.  And they are members of your house?  Yes.  And that's Percy Michell, Brenda Michell, Roger  Michell, Brian, Dan junior, Frieda, Fay, am I missing  anyone?  Brenda and Frieda, that's Catherine's kids.  And Marlene?  Yes.  That's  Catherine and Dan's child?  Yes.  And then Helen Mitchell, I am now on page four, my  lord, has children?  Yes.  And that's Dwayne, Oliver, Rodney and Sarah Jean?  Yes.  Is it Sarah Jean whose picture we saw with Christine  Holland?  Yes.  And they are members of your house?  Yes.  And Doris Michell has children?  Yes.  Sylvia, Tracey, Pricilla, Irvin, Hank, Shirley,  Clinton and Lee?  Yes.  And Sylvia has a son?  Yes.  And Pricilla has a son?  Yes.  And they are all members of your house? 3991  Yes.  And then Thelma has children?  Yes.  Elgin, Kelly, Dale, Lisa and Vania?  Yes.  And they are all members of your house?  Yes.  And then to come back on page five to Cecilia Holland,  she has children?  Yes.  And those are Norma and Tommy and Tina and Gordie?  Yes.  And they are all members of your house?  Yes.  And Norma and Tina very children?  Yes.  And they are members of your house?  Yes.  And one of Tina's children is Rosalee; is that right?  Yes.  And she has a son?  Yes.  And he is a member of your house?  Yes.  And then you also had a sister, who I can advise the  court does not appear on the genealogy, and that was  Maggie?  Yes.  She was your sister?  Yes.  And she died when you were a child; is that right?  Yes.  33 MR. ADAMS:  My lord, I wonder if this could be marked as an  34 exhibit.  35 THE COURT:  All right.  That will be exhibit —  36 THE REGISTRAR:  It will be Exhibit 310.  But they will have to  37 bring me one.   I will reserve the number.  38  39 (EXHIBIT 310:  GENEALOGY OF SARAH LAYTON)  40  41 I hereby certify the foregoing to be  42 a true and accurate transcript of the  43 proceedings herein.  44  45  46 Wilf Roy  47 Official Reporter  h2 Sarah Layton  1  A  2  Q  3  A  4  Q  5  A  6  Q  7  A  8  Q  9  10  A  11  Q  12  A  13  Q  14  A  15  Q  16  A  17  Q  18  A  19  Q  20  A  21  Q  22  A  23  Q  24  A  25  Q  26  27  28  A  29  Q  30  A  31  Q  32  A 1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  3992  (for Plaintiffs)  (PROCEEDINGS RESUMED AT 3:15)  THE  THE  MR.  REGISTRAR:  COURT:  ADAMS:  Q  Mr.  Order in court.  Adams.  Ready to proceed, my Lord.  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  A  Q  A  Thank you, my Lord.  There was just one point in the  genealogy I want to come back to, my Lord, and that's  on page 4, and I was asking the witness whether  Benjamin Holland had a chief's name, and if so what it  was.  Do you recall Benjamin Holland holding the name  Noostel?  Yes.  And can you say how the name passed to him and from  him; who had the name before him and after him?  After him, after my mother passed on that was, was  when Ben took the name Noostel.  And then who was next?  Warner William took the name after Ben passed on.  Thanks.  Mrs. Layton, I want to take you now to the  circumstances around your getting the name Knedebeas,  and I understand that happened in 1981 that you  finished that name?  Yes.  And can you tell the court how that came about, both  the preparation that was involved and the conduct of  the feast at which you took that name?  After my grandmother passed away, approximately a year  later I got ready for the feast, the stone feast, and  then from there I went inviting all the other chiefs  in Hazelton, Hagwilget, Smithers, Houston, Topley and  Burns Lake and also Broman Lake.  Johnny David went  along with me when I went inviting.  In what clan does Johnny David belong to?  Yes.  He's Laksilyu.  He was my father's clan.  And why was he an appropriate person to accompany you  to do that inviting?  He was the appropriate person to help me go inviting  because he knew all the traditional ways and rules  because he was of my father's clan.  I hired him to do  so and then I paid him in the feast system.  Mrs. Layton, backing up a good deal, who had the name  Knedebeas before you?  You said that was Christine  Holland; is that right?  Yes.  And who before her?  Joe Holland. 1  Q  2  A  3  Q  4  A  5  Q  6  A  7  Q  3993  And that was your uncle?  Yes.  And who before him?  Alexander McKenzie.  And that was your grandmother's brother?  Yes.  Christine Holland's brother.  Did your grandmother  8 ever talk to you about how many people had had that  9 name or how old that name was?  10 A   Yes.  As long as -- as long as anybody can remember  11 this name has -- was been the Yex t'sa wil k'us, and  12 she -- my grandmother remembers that name when she was  13 only a little girl, and she knew about it being passed  14 down from generation to generation.  15 MR. ADAMS:  Can we have the number for Yex T'sa wil k'us.  16 THE TRANSLATOR:  650.  17 MR. ADAMS:  650, thank you.  Now, you've said that your mother  died when you were about 16 years old?  Yes.  Your grandmother raised you after that time?  Yes.  And when and how did you become aware that you might  be considered a successor to the name Knedebeas?  Yes.  My grandmother had informed me that I would be  the possible successor to that name because the clan  members had declined due to death and I was the oldest  one within the family that could be a possible  successor, so I knew of this quite early, and as a  result I was comfortable with being successor to that  name.  Can you say roughly how many years before you took the  name you knew you were being considered as a  successor?  My grandmother had talked to me about being a possible  successor about the time when Ben Holland passed away.  That is when I used to go see my grandmother and she  talked to me about the name then.  And did Ben Holland die in the early 1970's?  Yes.  Around 1972?  Something like that, '71 I think.  And was that something that your grandmother told you  more or less privately?  Yes.  She had talked to me about this up until her  death, and then after her passing I started getting  ready to take that name.  18  Q  19  20  A  21  Q  22  A  23  Q  24  25  A  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  Q  33  34  35  A  36  37  38  39  Q  40  A  41  Q  42  A  43  Q  44  45  A  46  47 1  Q  2  3  4  A  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  Q  12  13  A  14  15  16  17  18  Q  19  20  A  21  Q  22  A  23  Q  24  A  25  26  Q  27  28  A  29  Q  30  31  A  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  Q  39  40  A  41  42  43  44  Q  45  46  47  3994  When -- can you recall when was it first publicly  announced that you might be the successor to  Knedebeas?  It's about approximately six years before she passed  away.  She stood me up in the feast, which was hosted  by the Gil seyhu, and she announced that I was going  to be the successor, and that is when I took some  money and I bought some material and helped out with  the food at the feast, and I sat in front of my  grandmother to be her successor.  What was the significance of sitting in front of your  grandmother?  I passed out the material that would designate me as a  successor to my grandmother's name, and after her  death I would deal with the stone feast, and then when  there's another clan hosting, and then I would take my  grandmother's seat at that time.  And what was the occasion when you passed out  material, was that at a feast?  Yes.  It was at a feast.  And what feast was that?  That was when Gil seyhu clan were hosting.  And do you recall what that feast was for?  I forget what feast it was, but I know it was Gil  seyhu clan.  Now, after your grandmother died there was a funeral  feast for her; is that right?  Yes.  And was anything done there in relation to the  succession?  At the time when we were conducting the funeral feast  all the -- there were all the chiefs from the other --  the guests and discuss that.  I would be the successor  and they all agreed, and that is when I come in and  they put the lights out in the feast hall, and that's  when I come in and then I was designated as a  successor then.  Is there a connection between putting the lights out  in the feast hall and your name?  Yes.  In putting out the lights would signify that we  are from the dark house, because that is what they  call it when my grandmother passed away, the lights  had gone out in the house.  You've given evidence briefly about having to get  ready for the feast at which you took your name.  What  in detail were you required to do to prepare for that  feast? 1  A  2  3  4  Q  5  6  A  7  8  Q  9  10  A  11  12  13  Q  14  15  16  A  17  18  19  20  Q  21  22  A  23  24  25  Q  26  27  28  A  29  30  31  32  33  Q  34  35  A  36  37  Q  38  39  A  40  Q  41  A  42  Q  43  44  45  A  46  47  3995  Yes.  I had -- I had required a ton of sugar,  material, bread, and other food stuff which was to be  distributed in the feast to the guests.  And can you say how much you had to spend to buy that  sugar?  At that time sugar was expensive, and a ton of sugar  run about $1,400.  And what about for material?  Can you recall how much  you had to spend to buy material?  I spent quite a bit there also.  There was more than a  hundred.  There was a lot of materials and towels and  things like that that I had bought.  And what, if anything, did the people from your clan  and house have to do towards the preparation for that  feast?  Yes.  After everything was brought into the feast  hall, that is when my family and clan members had  brought in all their things, and what they had brought  there was announced at the feast hall.  And the things that they brought in, were those things  that they paid for?  They also get ready to help me. They get ready and  they buy things and they help me whichever way they  can.  And you had a blanket, I think that was part of the  preparation to that feast.  Can you tell the court  what was involved in producing that blanket?  Yes.  There was a blanket made for me because the one  my grandmother had had been destroyed in the fire or  something, and that's when my father's clan was hired  to make a new blanket for me, and people that were  hired were Johnny David, Mabel Sam, and Mary Simpson.  And the blanket that they made for you, can you  describe that?  It was a button blanket with frogs on the side and  there was a Knedebeas on the back.  And the Knedebeas on the back was a big bird; is that  right?  Yes.  And it was what you call the "Nighthawk"?  Yes.  I'm a big bird, I come in with the big bird.  And you've said that you had to pay them to make that  blanket for you.  Do you recall how much you had to  pay them?  Yes. The father clan was hired to make the blanket,  and then I in turn had to pay them for that, and I'm  not sure, could have been more than $500, and the clan 1  2  3  4  Q  5  6  A  7  8  9  Q  0  A  3996  members also helped with -- in the collection for  that, and they were -- the father clan was paid out of  the collection.  And how much did you personally have to pay towards  that; do you recall?  They put a dish there for the collection, and it's  been a long time, you know, and I forget exactly how  much I put in there.  And where is that blanket now?  It's in my trunk at home in Prince George.  And this  11 trunk I have at home is what I received at the feast,  12 and any valuables I get from a feast I put in the  13 trunk, and that's what my grandmother used to do and I  14 also do that myself.  15 Q   Now, I understand that Sylvester William had a part in  16 the preparation for this feast.  Can you explain what  17 that was?  18 A   Yes.  Sylvester, who was married to my aunt, is my  19 uncle, so he was -- he went out into our territory and  2 0 he got some beaver in which he smoked and dried which  21 was also used at the feast, and that's what he used,  22 or he helped me out with that.  23 Q   And did you have to pay Sylvester William for doing  24 that?  25 A   Yes.  He was acting as Andumenuk.  2 6 MR. ADAMS:  Do we have the number for Andumenuk?  27 THE TRANSLATOR:  200.  Because he was married to an aunt, which is Yex t'sa  wil kus.  And Sylvester's use of Knedebeas' territory to take  that beaver, was that something for which he had your  grandmother's permission or your permission?  Yes.  I gave him permission to go out in our territory  to get the meat for the stone feast of my  grandmother's, and he also -- he was acting as  caretaker for us, because we as women, it would be  hard for us to look after the territory.  You testified a few minutes ago about Johnny David  travelling with you to announce your grandmother's  stone feast.  Can you explain for the court what it  was that he did in each of the places you visited?  Yes.  He was -- he used a rattle and a Saneel.  44 THE COURT:  I'm sorry, and a?  45 A   Saneel.  46 THE TRANSLATOR:  275.  47 A  And he would poke the floor in front of the invitees.  28  A  29  3 0 MR.  ADAMS  31  Q  32  33  34  A  35  36  37  38  39  Q  40  41  42  43  A 1  MR.  ADAMS  2  Q  3  A  4  5  Q  6  A  7  8  9  Q  10  11  A  12  13  14  THE  COURT  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  A  22  23  24  Q  25  26  A  27  MR.  ADAMS  28  THE  COURT  29  30  A  31  32  THE  COURT  33  MR.  ADAMS  34  Q  35  36  37  A  38  Q  39  A  40  Q  41  A  42  43  44  45  Q  46  A  47  Q  3997  Did he sing?  Yes.  He was singing, but I didn't know the song  myself.  Do you know what kind of a song it was?  I don't know that song itself.  It's what they call  Saneel.  They use that when they are inviting the  other chiefs.  And did you receive anything from the other chiefs  that you invited?  Yes.  They would all give me a dollar, two dollars,  and then when -- at the feast I returned that money  with a dollar or so interest.  :  I'm sorry.  I have a note that I'm not sure it makes  much sense.  You said that Johnny David used a rattle  and Saneel, and then I have here to poke the floor,  and I assumed that that was something he did with the  Saneel, but I see the Saneel is a song.  What did  he -- what did he poke the floor with, if I heard you  right?  He had an invitational stick which he poked the floor  in front of the invitees and while he sang the song or  the Saneel.  And was it the song that is called Saneel rather than  the stick?  Yes.  :  Okay.  :  And the invitational stick is something different  from the rattle, or are they the same thing?  The rattle is part of the Saneel, and then the stick  is for inviting them.  :  Thank you.  Now, at the feast itself I understand that there was  food distributed to all the people there; is that  right?  Yes.  Soup and bread?  Yes.  And what else?  Yes.  There was meat, and anything that family members  or relatives that they contributed to help me out  with, it was all passed out to the guests at the feast  hall.  And where did the meat come from?  It came from our territory.  And was that from the Tac'ets'ol'een, Poplar Lake MR.  THE  MR.  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33 THE  34  35  36 THE  37 MR.  38 THE  39  40  41  42 MR.  43  44  45  46  47  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  3998  territory?  A   Yes.  ADAMS:  Do you have a number for the Tac'ets'ol'een Lake?  TRANSLATOR:  618.  ADAMS:  And was anything said at the feast about that meat?  Yes.  It was announced in the feast hall where it came  from.  And were there berries distributed to the chiefs who  had been invited?  Yes.  That also was part of the feast where we go out  and pick berries, and then we give it to the chiefs  that I invited to the feast.  And who did the picking of berries for this feast?  Helen, Catherine, and Doris, and myself and my  children, we picked berries whenever we can.  Now, I want to ask you to look at a picture that is at  tab 4 in the black binder.  Can you say where that  picture was taken?  It's potlatch hall at Moricetown.  And can you say on what occasion?  It's the same time when I received that name.  That was at Christine Holland's headstone feast?  Yes.  And can you say who the gentleman on your right-hand  side of the picture is?  That's Warner William's son, Ian.  He's the little guy  that holds the name.  That's the boy in the centre of the picture?  Yes.  Who's the man in the checkered shirt?  Henry Alfred.  The little boy with the bowl is Warner William's  son?  Yes, his, of the Laksilyu clan.  Um-hum.  Could that be marked as the next exhibit, please.  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  COURT:  A  COURT:  ADAMS:  REGISTRAR: Exhibit 311, tab 4,  ADAMS:  Q  A  EXHIBIT 311 - Photograph  Now, I understand that at that point in the feast you  had to make an entrance, you had to come in. Can you  explain what you did and why?  Yes.  After the chiefs finished eating, that is when  we give the berries out to them, and after that is 1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  3999  when I entered the hall.  And what were you wearing?  I was wearing the blanket that was made for me.  Okay.  And what did you have to do?  Josephine Michell and Mabel Sam and Johnny David  brought me into the hall, and there again they put the  lights out.  And did you perform a dance?  Yes.  Mary George and Connie Tiljoe sang Knedebeas  song for me, and that's when I danced.  And can you describe the dance?  I had to dance along with the song the way the song  goes, and I danced along with it.  My Lord, that might be as good a place as any to  stop.  Yes, all right, thank you.  I just want to get  something, I'm not sure my note is exactly -- you said  something about Josephine, and I didn't get the next  word.  Josephine Michell.  Oh.  Who is the father -- he was of my father's clan.  Yes, all right, thank you.  Then we'll adjourn until  ten o'clock tomorrow morning.  THE REGISTRAR:  Order in court.  Court is adjourned.  (PROCEEDINGS ADJOURNED AT 4:00)  I hereby certify the foregoing to be  a true and accurate transcript of the  proceedings herein transcribed to the  best of my skill and ability  Graham D. Parker  Official Reporter  United Reporting Service Ltd.  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  MR. ADAMS:  THE COURT:  A  THE COURT  A  THE COURT


Citation Scheme:


Citations by CSL (citeproc-js)

Usage Statistics



Customize your widget with the following options, then copy and paste the code below into the HTML of your page to embed this item in your website.
                            <div id="ubcOpenCollectionsWidgetDisplay">
                            <script id="ubcOpenCollectionsWidget"
                            async >
IIIF logo Our image viewer uses the IIIF 2.0 standard. To load this item in other compatible viewers, use this url:


Related Items