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Delgamuukw Trial Transcripts

[Proceedings of the Supreme Court of British Columbia 1988-01-04] British Columbia. Supreme Court Jan 4, 1988

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 2097  1 Vancouver B. C,  2 January 4, 1988.  3 THE REGISTRAR:   In the Supreme Court of British Columbia,  4 Monday the 4th day of January, 1988.  Calling the  5 matter Delgamuukw against Her Majesty the Queen.  6 THE COURT:  I see the same cast of familiar faces.  It won't be  7 necessary for counsel to announce themselves.  Thank  8 you.  Mr. Grant?  9 MR. GRANT:  Yes, my lord.  Before the evidence commences, just a  10 couple of housekeeping matters.  One is that the  11 plaintiffs filed an application under Rule 40 (5) of  12 the Supreme Court Rules for an order that the Crown in  13 right of the Province pay the cost of the original  14 trial transcripts.  That was filed December 23 and it  15 was apparent -- it was mailed or it was delivered to  16 my friends but I believe it was probably delivered by  17 regular mail and they didn't receive it.  So I would  18 just ask that it would be appropriate that application  19 be adjourned until Thursday of this week.  I have  20 delivered copies of them to them now by hand and that  21 should be adjourned to Thursday morning.  22 THE COURT:  That's satisfactory to all counsel?  23 MR. GOLDIE:  Yes my lord.  2 4 MR. MACAULAY:  Yes my lord.  2 5 THE COURT:  Thank you.  26 MR. GRANT:  The only other matter I wish to raise was the  27 question of the court's proposal at the last  28 teleconference in terms of a trial schedule, that is  29 in terms of the three weeks on and one week off, until  30 the end of March, and I wonder if there was a  31 possibility of getting any clarification after that  32 time?  33 THE COURT:  I was rather half waiting to hear from counsel to  34 see if there were any particular problems that any of  35 them had before I attempted to extend my thinking  36 beyond the end of March.  Do counsel have any views on  37 that question?  38 MR. GOLDIE:  Well, I wonder, my lord, if my friend could  39 indicate, as some assistance to us in that regard,  40 when he anticipates completing his case?  In other  41 words, if we look at the trial schedule, it would be  42 of assistance to us to determine whether there is some  43 period in there in which some special accomodation  44 might be required.  45 MR. GRANT:  Yes, my lord, I would be happy to.  It's our  46 estimation that the plaintiffs' case would be  47 completed, and this, of course, it is a Catch-22 2098  1 situation, I am assuming a three-week on, one-week off  2 system, it would be completed in the latter part of  3 May.  And we estimate that the trial will, of course,  4 maybe it's out of our hands at that point, but based  5 on expert reports delivered and what we anticipate  6 from the other side, that the trial would be completed  7 at the end of September on the assumption of --  8 THE COURT:  The trial or the evidence?  9 MR. GRANT:  The trial.  And on the assumption that there was a  10 summer break.  If there wasn't a summer break it would  11 be two months earlier.  12 THE COURT:  Yes.  Well, I think what I will do, unless counsel  13 want me to consider any particular variations from the  14 three and one rule, or schedule, and I would be happy  15 to defer final consideration until later this week.  16 But if I haven't heard from counsel, and when I say  17 heard from counsel, I mean counsel stand up and tell  18 me before the end of Wednesday night, for example, I  19 will fix a schedule that or I will propose a schedule  20 for counsels' consideration.  Though I would be glad  21 to resume this discussion with counsel, say, Wednesday  22 morning.  And if there is anything special that anyone  23 wants to have considered, then I should hear about it  24 by that date and failing any such matters, I will  25 propose a schedule for counsel at least to include the  26 period of time that's been mentioned this morning.  27 MR. GRANT:  Thank you, my lord.  That would certainly assist the  28 plaintiffs.  29 THE COURT:  There is a matter that I want to take up with  30 counsel before I go to that.  31 I have received a number of orders that I recognize  32 as the subject of discussions that have taken place in  33 September and October and -- I may be wrong in that,  34 they may all be the same -- are they all the same, 8th  35 of September, 1987 or are there different orders?  36 Counsel have not signed any of these orders.  I  37 believe that it's in order that I have an order that I  38 have settled.  39 MR. GOLDIE:  That's correct, my lord.  And my instructions are  40 that the order proposed by my friend is acceptable to  41 us, both after your lordship settled that order,  42 counsel -- the orders on behalf of the plaintiff and  43 on behalf of the defendant Province, and both orders  44 were sent in as having been settled.  And to avoid the  45 necessity of your lordship re-settling the order, the  46 one drafted by my friends is acceptable to the  47 Province. MR. GRANT  THE COURT  9  10  11  12  13 MR.  14  15  16 THE  17 MR.  18  19 THE  20  21  22  2 3 MR.  24  25 THE  2 6 MR.  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  MR.  2099  They concerned, my friend's concerned with me  regarding that matter and I -- that's what my  understanding was as well.  We simultaneously had  drawn orders for your approval.  All right.  Well, I have here an order that I  believe came from Mr. Grant and I have one here that  came -- well, it has Mr. Goldie's back on it or Mr.  Mackenzie's name on it, and could I just hand those to  counsel and have counsel look at those two, and  confirm that it's the one tabbed with Mr. Grant's  name.  Mr. Goldie is now telling me that that's the  one that's acceptable to all parties.  MACAULAY:  I should say, my lord, we were missed in it, so  far as the agreement is concerned, and I think we  ought to look at that order.  Well, I don't think Mr. Grant needs it immediately.  That's fine.  I, again, there may have been some  mail problems.  Well, I am sure that that's perfectly acceptable, if  it be left with you to let us know later in the day or  tomorrow, when it's convenient, if it's satisfactory.  If not, you can speak to your friend.  There were some trial notes on that to be returned  to you.  All right.  Thank you.  Ready to proceed, Mr. Rush?  I am.  I have one matter of a housekeeping nature and that  is the question of the alienation exhibits.  Your  lordship may recall that there is marked for  identification, Exhibit 24-B and 36 to 39 and that was  done on the basis that the Province would file five  affidavits verifying the custodianship was the concern  that had been expressed by my friend Mr. Grant or Mr.  Rush.  At the same time, the marking for  identification of the balance of those exhibits was, I  believe, deferred.  But Exhibit 56 sets out the  description of the exhibits, and that is that -- was  how matters were left when the adjournment took place  last spring.  The affidavits in question, the five affidavits in  question, were filed on July 14.  The statement that  was made by my friends was that was they would  cross-examine during the summer vacation, if  cross-examination was required.  No request has been  made for cross-examination and my application this  morning is that those exhibits now be marked or, to  put it another way, that the qualification "for  COURT:  GRANT:  COURT:  GRANT:  COURT:  RUSH:  GOLDIE 1  2  3  4  5  6  7 THE  8 MR.  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19 THE  2 0 MR.  21 THE  22 MR.  23 THE  2 4 MR.  25  26  2 7 MR.  28  29  3 0 MR.  31  32  33  34 THE  35 MR.  36  37  38  39  40  41  42 THE  43 THE  4 4 MR.  45 THE  46  47 THE  2100  identification" be removed.  And I am referring, as I said a minute ago, to the  Exhibits 36-A to 39-C and 24-A.  Those were all marked  for identification, June 16 of 1987, and that's, in my  submission, the Province has complied with the  qualification that was placed on that.  COURT:  Are you ready to deal with this, Mr. Rush?  RUSH:  Not exactly.  I would propose that this application  be put to Thursday, as your lordship knows our  concerns in the summer and fall were preoccupied with  matters that were not entirely related to issues such  as this, and I would like this evening and perhaps  tomorrow to consider our view of this.  I appreciate  what Mr. Goldie has said, we will consider  particularly what he indicates is Exhibit 56, which  sets out the description of those documents.  I  suggest we bring it back to the court's attention on  Thursday.  COURT:  Is that satisfactory, Mr. Goldie?  GOLDIE:  Yes, my lord.  COURT:  Mr. Macaulay?  MACAULAY:  Yes.  COURT:  All right.  Thank you.  RUSH:  We are prepared to resume the testimony of Mr. Alfred  Joseph and I call Mr. Joseph back at this time to the  witness stand.  GOLDIE:  While Mr. Joseph is coming up, is my friend  prepared to inform us of the witnesses following Mr.  Joseph?  We are happy to do that.   We can, for the month of  January, with certainty, I think, and Mr. Grant was  going to deal with that question.  I will just allow  him to do that.  Thank you.  Sit down for a moment, Mr. Joseph.  Yes, my lord, after Mr. Joseph, the next witness  will be Madeline Alfred after Madeline Alfred would be  Henry Alfred, after Henry Alfred will be Alfred  Mitchell, after Mr. Mitchell would be Dan Michell and  if there is still time in this three week session or  otherwise the beginning of the next session would be  Sarah Layton.  COURT:  Thank you.  COURT:  Mr. Rush?  RUSH:  Yes.  COURT:  I suppose the witness should be reminded, you are  under oath, Mr. Joseph?  WITNESS:  Yes.  RUSH:  COURT  GRANT 1  THE  COURT  2  MR.  RUSH:  3  4  5  THE  COURT  6  7  8  MR.  RUSH:  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  THE  COURT  18  MR.  GOLDI  19  MR.  RUSH:  20  21  22  THE  COURT  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  MR.  RUSH:  32  THE  COURT  33  34  35  MR.  RUSH:  36  THE  COURT  37  38  39  40  MR.  RUSH:  41  Q  42  43  44  A  45  Q  46  A  47  Q  2101  : Thank you.  Also, I am going to ask that Mr. Ron Mitchell come  forward, who, as you recall, was helping us with the  words when we adjourned in June.  :  One last matter before you proceed, Mr. Rush, at one  stage we were taping these proceedings, is that being  done?  I think your lordship may recall that the Province  and the Government of Canada had the option to have a  tape recorder in order to determine, if they wished,  the accuracy of translation, and of course we weren't  using a translator with Mr. Joseph.  His evidence has  been given in English and Mr. Mitchell will assist us  in terms of the spelling of certain words.  And I just  wanted to again remind your lordship that we had a  list of a those words and if you have that handy --  :  I don't.  E:  Exhibit 63.  Yes, it was.  And you might recall we had an update  of that but if you had Exhibit 63, that would be, I  think, of considerable assistance.  :  Well, I will leave it this way, that either party  who wishes to have a tape recording of the proceedings  prepared for the purposes of checking the accuracy or  otherwise of translations is at liberty to do so and  it will be for the party seeking such assistance to  make arrangements for the equipment.  Counsel should know that I have in my chambers a  collection of tapes from the previous proceedings.  I  haven't taken the opportunity to listen to them.  These are audio tapes?  :  Yes.  And there is a videotape of just two parts of,  the two tapes that were shown as evidence are in my  possession as well.  Yes.  Yes.  :  I have Exhibit 63 now, thank you.  ALFRED JOSEPH, resumed:  Mr. Joseph, I was now going to ask you some questions  about your immediate family.  Your wife's name is  Helen?  Yes.  And she is a Gitksan person?  Her mother is a Gitksan person.  And is Helen from a Gitksan clan? 1  A  2  Q  3  A  4  Q  5  A  6  Q  7  8  A  9  Q  10  A  11 THE  COURT  12  A  13  Q  14  A  15  Q  16  A  17  Q  18  A  19  Q  20  A  21  Q  22  A  23  Q  24  A  25  Q  26  A  27  Q  28  A  29  Q  30  A  31 THE  COURT  32  A  33 MR.  RUSH:  34  Q  35  36  A  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  Q  45  46  A  47  Q  2102  Yes.  And that is Fireweed?  Yes.  And what house was or is Helen in?  The house of Wiiseeks.  Now, Mr. Joseph, your children, you have, I believe, a  number of children?  Yes.  Could you tell the court their names?  The oldest one is Sheila and Alfred Vernon --  :  I am sorry, that's one person, Alfred Vernon?  Yes.  And Lucille, Leon and Barbara.  Are they in a house as well?  They are in the house of Wiiseeks.  And you have grandchildren?  Yes.  And Francine is one of those?  Yes.  And is that Sheila's child?  Yes.  And Matthew?  Yes.  Is that Sheila's child as well?  Yes.  And Carl?  Yes.  And Elsie?  Yes.  Elsie is Barbara's child.  And what house are they in?  They are in the House of Wiiseeks.  :  All four of them?  House of Wiiseeks, yes.  Now, Mr. Joseph, what is your connection as Gisdaywa  with the Gitksan houses?  Well, my wife being from the Gitksan area and her  mother is from Kispiox, and she is -- she holds a seat  at the Feast House at Wiiseeks' table so that whenever  they are having a feast, I have to go, I am invited to  go, and whenever other clans put up feasts she goes  and I have to take her and at times I am sitting in.  So I am very much involved with the Gitksan feast  system, as well as the Wet'suwet'en system.  There is a pole that is of Wiiseeks House; is that  right?  Yes.  Did you have anything to do with the carving of that 1  2  A  3  4  Q  5  6  A  7  Q  8  A  9  Q  10  11  12  13  14  A  15  Q  16  17  A  18  Q  19  A  20  Q  21  A  22  23  24  Q  25  26  27 THE  COURT  2 8 MR.  RUSH:  29  Q  30  31  A  32  Q  33  34  35  A  36  37  Q  38  39  40  A  41  42  Q  43  A  44  Q  45  A  46  Q  47  2103  pole?  Yes, I was commissioned by Wiiseeks, along with his  son, to carve a totem pole for Wiiseeks.  And is the person who held the name of Wiiseeks at  that time, that was Pete Muldoe?  Yes.  And his son is Earl Muldoe?  Yes.  Now, I want to ask you now about fishing and fishing  in fishing sites of Gisdaywa.  And the first question  I would like to ask you on this subject, Mr. Joseph  is, are there Wet'suwet'en sites owned by Wet'suwet'en  chiefs which are up river from the Moricetown Canyon?  Yes.  And can you give an example of where such sites exist,  to your knowledge?  There is fishing sites on the Wet'sen kwe.  Wet'sen kwe?  Yes.  That's the Morice River, is it?  The Bulkley and the Morice.  And they have fishing  sites at Wal cott and Barrett and a place they called  Morice Canyon, we called it tseeghninnlii.  I am going to come to that in just a moment.  That's  spelt, I have a spelling for that  t-s-e-e-g-h-n-i-n-n-1-i-i.  :  Thank you.  Just before we come to that, that's Gisdaywa's site,  the last one I just spelt?  Yes.  Before I come to that, of the fishing sites which you  have given as examples upriver from the Moricetown  Canyon, who owns those fishing sites?  The chiefs that hold the territory around the fishing  sites are owned by them.  Are there any fishing sites owned by Wet'suwet'en  chiefs who are not the owners of the land around the  fishing sites?  The only place that happens is right in Moricetown  itself, in the reserve.  Outside of the canyon I was talking about.  No.  The answer is no?  No.  All right.  Now, are there fishing sites in Gisdaywa's  territory, the territory which you have described 1  2  A  3  Q  4  5  A  6  Q  7 THE  COURT  8 MR.  RUSH:  9  Q  10  11  A  12  13  Q  14  A  15  Q  16  A  17  Q  18  19  20  A  21  Q  22  23  A  24  25  Q  26  A  27  28  29  30  Q  31  A  32  Q  33  A  34  Q  35  A  36  Q  37  A  38  Q  39  A  40  Q  41  42  43  44  A  45  46  47  Q  2104  previously in your evidence?  Yes.  And are these sites ones which belong to Gisdaywa and  the House of Kaiyexwenits?  Yes.  This was 114 on our list.  :  Thank you.  Are you able to tell the court where these fishing  sites were located?  The fishing for spring and sockeye and coho was on the  wet'sen kwe and tseeghninnlii.  The last one you talked about?  The one --  It is the one I spelt?  Yes.  And then there is one at Bii wenii c'eek.  Now, Mr. Joseph, just before you leave the  tseeghninnlii site, is there an English name for that  site on the Morice River?  Morice Canyon.  And can you tell us where that's located by reference  to the Morice and the Owen River?  It's about four miles, four miles north of Bii wenii  c'eek.  And Bii wenii c'eek, just where is that located?  That's in -- there is a road junction there and the  road going towards Francrs Lake and a road going to  Morice Lake and there is a camp, hunting, winter camp  there.  That is also a place where two rivers meet?  Yes.  And what are the rivers there?  That's Biiwanii Kwe.  That's Owen, correct?  Yes.  And what's the other river?  Wet'sen Kwe.  That's Morice River?  That's Morice River.  So you have told us about the fishing site at Morice  Canyon and the one at Bii wenii c'eek, I just wanted  to ask you if you can tell us the fish which are taken  at Kii wenii c'eek?  Bii wenii c'eek, it's -- it would be spring when it's  running and sockeye and coho right at the mouth of the  creek.  Are there other places on Gisdaywa's territory where 1  2  A  3  Q  4 THE  COURT  5 MR.  RUSH:  6  7  8  9  Q  10  A  11  12  13  Q  14  A  15  Q  16  17  A  18  Q  19  20  21  22  A  23  24  Q  25  A  26  Q  27  A  28  Q  29  A  30  Q  31  A  32  33  Q  34  A  35  Q  36  A  37  Q  38  39  40  41  A  42  Q  43  44  45  46  47  A  2105  there is fishing?  They fish at Biiwanii teezdlii.  That's 138, my lord.  :  I thought Bii wenii'ceek was 138.  No, this is Biiwanii teezdlii.  I see.  Yes, Mr.  Grant points out to me, and I think that we have 138  for both of these -- no, we don't.  In any event, it's  Biiwanii teezdlii.  What is taken at Biiwanii teezdlii?  It's a fish that comes from the lake, Biiwanii Ben  Lake, white fish and grayling and char is taken on the  lake as well.  Are there particular fishing sites on the lake itself?  Yes.  Okay.  And the lake that you are referring to is  Biiwanii Ben?  Yes.  That's 111.  Now, apart from Biiwanii Teezdlii, as you  have made reference to, Mr. Joseph, are there other  lakes or rivers in Gisdaywa's territory where there is  fishing?  Yes, there is fishing on the lakes too, west of  Biiwanii Ben.  And are these fresh water fish that are taken?  Yes.  What are the fish?  It's a grayling.  Are there other kinds of fish there?  Well, trout.  And are there other places on the territory?  Then to the east, east boundary of Gisdaywa, there is  the Dek 'aaz tl'enlii.  And that's North Parrott Lake, is it?  Yes.  What's taken in that lake?  There is white fish, grayling and trout.  All right.  Now, the rivers and lakes which you have  referred to as being places on Gisdaywa's territory,  owned by Gisdaywa, who is it that owns these rivers  and waters within the territory?  It is the Gisdaywa and House of Kaiyexweniits.  That's number 114.   I wanted to ask you, Mr. Joseph,  about where a river is a boundary between two  Wet'suwet'en house territories, can you say, can you  tell his lordship who owns the waters and the fish or  fishing rights to the river?  It's the chief that owns the territory next to the 1  2  Q  3  4  A  5  Q  6  A  7  8  Q  9  10  A  11  Q  12  13  14  A  15  Q  16  17  18  19  20  21  A  22  23  24  25  Q  26  A  27  Q  28  29  30  A  31  Q  32  33  A  34  Q  35  A  36  Q  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  A  45  Q  46  A  47  2106  river.  And is the chief entitled to go out into the river to  catch fish or pursue animals?  Yes.  And where can the chief or his house members go?  Well, he can retrieve his catch out a ways to the  middle and he can't cross over to the other side.  Okay.  And what sort of animals are pursued, if you  know?  Beaver, all that's in the water, muskrat, otter, mink.  And in respect to the rivers and waters in Gisdaywa's  territory, do you and your house claim those river  beds and water and fish?  Yes.  You made mention, Mr. Joseph, and I neglected to ask  you about, the water or a lake that was to the west of  Biiwanii Ben or Owen Lake, and was there a particular  lake that you had in mind when you said that or were  there a number of lakes or waters that you know of  that were fished and are fished?  There is two small lakes on the western boundary,  southwest boundary, and one -- they both have the same  name but the one is upper and the other is lower.  The  upper one is C'eneggett.  And what's the other?  Delgii yeez wenii.  The second of those two names is found at 319.  Give  us the first one again, if you will, please, Mr.  Joseph?  C'eneggett.  Now, you have added C'eneggett, and what does that in  Gitksan mean?  That's upper one of the two lakes.  What's taken in that lake?  It's mostly grayling is what the name says.  All right.  Now I want to ask you, Mr. Joseph, on a  similar subject, the kind of fish and in particular  salmon which is are harvested by Wet'suwet'en people.  Are you able to tell his lordship what are the salmon  runs which pass through the Bulkley River system or  the Wet'sen kwe river system?  Maybe you can begin  with the first runs of salmon which occur in the  spring?  At Hagwilget?  Or Moricetown?  Yes.  Well, there is a fish that they catch most of  the year and that's the steelhead.  It's taken nearly 1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  Q  9  A  10  11  12  Q  13  A  14  Q  15  A  16  Q  17  18  A  19  20  21  Q  22  A  23  Q  24  25  26  27  A  28  29  Q  30  A  31  Q  32  33  34  A  35  Q  36  37  A  38  39  Q  40  A  41  Q  42  A  43  Q  44  A  45  Q  46  A  47  Q  2107  all times of the year, but the migrating fish, the  first one they get at Hagwilget is the spring, which  is the biggest of the salmon that comes through and  they come in May.  All depends how the water runs are.  And when that's starting, when June comes, the sockeye  start, when the sockeye is starting to they run for  about a month.  They run from June into July?  Yes.  And the latter part of July you start the humps,  pinks, and the Coho and the fresh steelhead, and the  dog salmon start to come.  That's at the end of July, early August, is it?  Yes.  How long do those fish run to?  They run mid-September, sometimes later.  All right.  And are there any other fish which run  after the Coho, pink or humps?  There is small fish that also go in to Owen Creek and  lakes, and that one is a small gray efficient we call  Lloots .  When is that taken?  That's in the fall, September, October.  Now, were all of these species of salmon and, I guess,  in respect to the small gray efficient, the Lloots you  have just mentioned, were they harvested by the  Wet'suwet'en?  Yes.  There is another species that they harvested at  Moricetown, that's the eel.  An eel?  Yes.  I will come to that in just a moment.  If I could just  deal with the salmon.  These species of salmon that  you mentioned, are they harvested today?  Yes.  And are they prepared -- how are they prepared by the  the Wet'suwet'en once taken?  They were dried, smoke dried before but today there is  different ways that they can preserve them.  Would you just tell us how today they are preserved?  They are salted, canned and frozen.  Are they also dried?  Yes.  Are they smoke dried?  Smoke dried, yes.  Do the Wet'suwet'en people wind dry the salmon?  Yes.  Now, you mentioned that the pink salmon are taken 1  2  A  3  Q  4  A  5  6  Q  7  8  9  A  10  Q  11  A  12  Q  13  A  14  15  16  Q  17  18  A  19  20  21  Q  22  A  23  Q  24  25  26  27  28  A  29  30  Q  31  A  32  33  Q  34  A  35  36  37  38  Q  39  40  A  41  Q  42  A  43  44  45  46  47  Q  2108  today as well?  Yes.  And how are the pinks used?  They are used the same way as the other salmon that I  mentioned.  Okay. Can you tell us in respect of these species of  salmon, Mr. Joseph, what methods are used in order to  land the salmon?  The first fish that come are gaffed.  This is a gaff?  Yes.  And are other methods used?  They are gaffed and some are net, they use nets, dip  nets.  And in the past they have used weirs, fish  traps.  All right.  What is the quality of the salmon which is  caught as Moricetown?  The quality of salmon when it's Moricetown they are  still good yet, there is no -- they are still silver  when you see them taken out of the water.  And how do they taste?  Good.  And are you able to say, Mr. Joseph, what the strength  of the sockeye runs are today as compared with, for  example, 30 years ago?  I think you said you fished in  the Hagwilget canyon, can you tell us, give us your  view of the strength of the runs?  The -- the sockeye salmon isn't running too -- as good  as it did 30 years ago.  A lot fewer running.  And what about the other species?  The spring is -- quite a bit of spring yet, and a lot  of pinks and coho and steelhead.  And springs, did you mention springs?  Yes.  It's pretty hard to say at Hagwilget how the  runs are exactly, because we just can't catch them any  more.  We have to go to Moricetown and watch and see  how they are catching them there.  All right.  You mentioned gaffing as a means of  catching salmon, and have you gaffed fish yourself?  Yes.  And how effective is it as a means of catching salmon?  It's a very good way to catch a fish and there is not  too much loss if you are using the proper hook.  And  gaffing also the fish is bled as you take it out of  the water and that seems to make a difference when you  are drying it.  All right.  Can you just describe how -- I don't want 1  2  3  4  A  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  Q  25  A  26  27  28  29  30  Q  31  A  32  Q  33  A  34  35  36  37  Q  38  A  39  Q  40  41  A  42  Q  43  A  44  Q  45  A  46  Q  47  A  2109  you to go into every detail, because I am sure it's a  difficult process, but can you tell his lordship how  you gaff a fish?  Well, for the spring salmon, you have to have a pole  that's a way longer than the sockeye and the hook is a  lot bigger, you have to have a bigger hook and when  you are gaffing, you have to work straight down the  walls of the canyon.  The only way you can catch a  spring salmon is straight down, you can't angle your  gaff out because it will -- you will lose your pole or  it will pull you in if you are not tied.  And you have  to set your hook, it's facing out all the time and  away from the wall of the canyon.  And to do that, you  have to mark your pole up towards the top and you see  that that mark stays facing out the same way as the  hook.  So the position of your hook you have to know  all the time.  When you touch that fish, when you  touch a fish they just go down further and then you  give it a pull and you have got your fish.  And the  sockeye, as the water goes down the platform goes down  and the water gets shallower and you start to use a  shorter pole.  And you use a different hook for  sockeye.  What's the differences in the hooks?  Well, the -- for spring you have to have a wider,  bigger hook and the sockeye hook is smaller.  And as  the water goes down, for the sockeye, the pinks and  the coho, you turn your hook around and you still have  a shorter pole yet.  So you have yet a third level or length of pole?  Yes.  Is there any difference in the hook?  You just reverse your hook because you are using it as  a spear then.  You are selecting, you are more  selective because you want the coho, you spear a coho,  because the water is clear that time of the year.  Can you see the fish at that point?  Yes.  When you are fishing for springs and sockeye, are you  able to see the fish?  No,  The fishing is by means of feeling the fish, is it?  Yes.  How long are the poles?  I think some spring poles go about 30 feet.  And the sockeye?  Sockeye down to 24. 1  Q  2  A  3  Q  4  A  5  6  7  Q  8  9  10  11  A  12  Q  13  A  14  Q  15  A  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  Q  24  A  25  Q  26  27  A  28  Q  29  A  30  31  32  33  34  Q  35  A  36  Q  37  A  38  39  40  41  Q  42  43  A  44  Q  45  46  A  47  Q  2110  And I think you mentioned pinks?  Pinks and coho, your pole would be about ten feet.  Who makes these poles?  The poles are made every year, every spring.  You  can't use a pole from last year.  The fishermen  themselves make it and they make their own hooks.  Okay.  Now, the -- I am going to ask you about another  subject, I am going to ask you about whether any of  the species of salmon which you have mentioned were  traded or exchanged or given away?  Yes, they were traded.  Were they also exchanged among people?  Yes.  And what about given away to people?  Yes, there were times that they gave -- there were  always elders in the village that cannot prepare their  own fish.  There was a time when I was growing up,  there was, the elders of the village had no pension at  that time.  And there was no other income for them so  when a blind person or an elder lived alone, they were  provided for by other families.  And, they would --  the fish was given to them throughout the winter too.  Does that happen today, is fish given to elders?  Yes.  Let me ask you about the trading of the fish.  Were  the fish traded to other non-Wet'suwet'en people?  Yes.  Are you able to say to whom they were traded?  Well, from what I have seen it in and my grandmother,  she had her regular customers that went commercial  fishing and when they came from the coast they had to  go trapping so they could come to her for their supply  of fish.  So she traded fish to these commercial fishermen?  Yes.  I take it they didn't have their own?  They had their own, at times like make canned or  salted and times traded for them.  Then she also  traded for some of the nets or twine that she needed  at the time.  Were any of the fish that you know of traded with the  Gitksan people?  Yes.  Were they traded with other people farther to the  west, such as the Nishga people?  Yes.  Do you know what was traded for, what was received in 1  2  A  3  4  Q  5  A  6  Q  7  8  A  9  Q  10  11  12  A  13  Q  14  15  16  A  17  Q  18  19  A  20  Q  21  22  A  23  24  25  26  27  Q  28  29  30  A  31  Q  32  33  34  A  35  Q  36  37  38  A  39  40  41  42  43  44  Q  45  46  A  47  Q  2111  exchange?  They were always seaweed, herring eggs and oolichan  grease.  Was kelp ever traded for?  Yes.  Were there any other seafoods that were traded for  that you know?  They had dried clams.  Now, you mentioned that your grandmother traded fish  to some commercial fishermen who were going out  trapping?  Yes.  Were there people who remained at Hagwilget and  Moricetown who fished during the summer season in  particular?  Yes.  And were there some people who also went to fish in  the commercial fishery during the same period?  Yes.  Can you just tell his lordship who were the people  that remained in the village at that time?  Well, some of the people that remained in the village  were elders from 50, 60 years old who were still able  to gaff and the younger people up to 12 years old that  are able to pack up fish from the canyon and they are  the ones that did most of the fishing at home.  There was a period of time, I understand, Mr. Joseph,  when many of the Hagwilget people went to the coast to  fish in the commercial fishery?  Yes.  And the people that you are talking about now are  people who remained in the village and fished in the  land fishery?  Yes.  Can you just tell us what time period we are talking  about here, what was the period when there were people  who went to the commercial fishery on the coast?  The commercial fishermen left home around just, oh,  26th or 27th of June.  I know it was always before the  1st of July and they stayed down there until about the  20th of August, that's when I think the sockeye season  was over down there but some stayed back for the fall  fishing but others came home.  When they came home did they go out and do other --  some other activity on the land?  Yes.  What was that? 2112  1 A  Mostly berry picking and groundhog hunting.  2 Q   Now, can you tell us the years that this happened or  3 what decade, did this happen in the '30s or '40s or  4 '50s or when did what you are describing now occur?  5 A   It was in the '30s up to the '60s, but they talked of  6 the '20s and before that when our people went down to  7 the coast, when they first started going to the coast.  8 Q   Now, do the people go to the coast with the same  9 frequency today or do they go at all today?  10 A  Well, for Hagwilget and Moricetown, there is not too  11 much, too many going to the coast now.  12 Q   When did they stop going, can you say about when that  13 occurred?  14 A   Speaking for myself, I quit going after 1950.  And I  15 think most of the people from Hagwilget and Moricetown  16 are the same except for maybe one or two people from  17 Moricetown.  18 Q   So, would that be in the middle or early '50s?  19 A   Early '50s.  20 Q   That you stopped going?  That's to the --  21 A   Yes.  22 Q   That's to the commercial fishery?  23 A   Yes.  24 Q   You told me that you saw your grandmother trade the  25 fish with other people who were Wet'suwet'en people  26 and I just want you to give me an example, do you know  27 the name of someone or do you recall the name of  28 someone she traded?  29 A   The ones that always came after commercial fishing  30 season was over was the Seymour, who were Gyologyet,  31 and they always went trapping, they always came and  32 traded or traded material or other seafoods for dry  33 fish.  34 Q   Now, is there trading of fish, as you have described,  35 does this happen today too?  36 A   Yes.  37 Q   Is there trade in other types of foods or resources  38 taken from the land by the Wet'suwet'en, either the  39 Wet'suwet'en or Gitksan?  40 MR. GOLDIE:  My lord, this was all gone over on June 19th with  41 this witness.  42 MR. RUSH:  I don't think the — the fish part was.  43 MR. GOLDIE:  Both, huckleberries, blueberries, trade with  44 Nishga, and abalone shells.  45 MR. RUSH:  We are just going to cover one more of these  46 commodities, Mr. Goldie.  47 Q   Do you recall any other type of meat that was traded, 1  2  A  3  4  5  6  7  8  Q  9  10  A  11  12  13  14  15  Q  16  A  17  Q  18  A  19  Q  20  A  21  22  Q  23  A  24  Q  25  A  26  Q  27  28  A  29  30  31  32  33  Q  34  A  35  Q  36  37  A  38  Q  39  40  41  A  42  43  44  45  46  47  2113  Mr. Joseph?  Well, there was -- they traded moose meat, bear meat,  but the part that was important was that they traded  material we call babine.  That was very important to  the Nishgas, important to any people that had heavy  snowfall around, so our people made those and that was  one of the important material that was traded.  Today, or this last summer or the summer before, where  do you get your fish from?  I get my fish from my wife's relatives at Kispiox,  whenever there is a surplus, and also get from some  friends at Kitwangak and then a little bit from  Moricetown.  But I am a little reluctant to go  sometimes because of roadblocks.  Who are these roadblocks, who staffs these roadblocks?  Fish and wildlife with the help of the RCMP.  Are you encountered a roadblock yourself?  Yes.  And where is the roadblock located?  I was either east of Hazelton or west of Hazelton and  north of Hazelton.  Do you know what these roadblocks were intended to do?  They are checking for salmon.  Do you know why?  I don't know.  Is there some limitation that you have a restriction  as a resident at Hagwilget?  Yes, we, at one time, Hagwilget and Moricetown were  considered as one village by our people but ever since  the band council system came in, all of a sudden it  became two villages, so if I went to Moricetown, I  would be considered trespassing.  Yet --  Considered by whom to be trespassing?  The DIA and the law.  Are there any restrictions on your transporting fish  from Moricetown to Hagwilget?  Yes.  Now, you mentioned eels earlier as a river fish that  was taken from Moricetown, are these eels taken today  and used today?  It's not taken.  Again, not taken at Hagwilget but  Moricetown it could be taken because of the falls that  are still there but at Hagwilget there is no more  falls so the eel used to go up on Hagwilget canyon  through the walls and you could pick them up with your  hand but ever since the blasting of the rock there is  no more -- the water is just running smooth so the 2114  1 eels have -- are not taken at Hagwilget any more.  2 Q   What about as Moricetown?  3 A  Moricetown they still take them.  4 Q   And are these prepared by drying as well?  5 A   Yes.  6 Q   Do you know, are they prepared in any other way to  7 your knowledge?  8 A   No, as far as I know, the only method was drying  9 and -- they -- they have -- they don't cut, they don't  10 use a knife to cut that.  They use wood, hardwood  11 instead of a knife.  12 Q   Now, you mentioned the blasting of the rock at  13 Hagwilget and in your testimony last June, you  14 testified as to the effects of the blasting of the  15 rock in respect to the fishery.  I want to ask you if  16 there were any effects of the blasting of the rock  17 among the people and their use of the fishing sites at  18 Hagwilget, which you observed?  19 A   Yes, there is quite a loss.  Quite an impact on the  20 young people.  I watched young people and I was told  21 by other people that the young people at home just  22 don't know how to prepare fish any more and the --  23 when you are a young person, your first catch would be  24 at Hagwilget canyon.  You are restricted to use the  25 beach for your fishing.  Like myself, when I was  26 young, I wasn't permitted to go in the canyon until I  27 was a teenager, and when you caught a fish, you were  28 taught how to clean it as you brought it up fresh, you  29 were -- you are taught how to prepare it, to hang it  30 and to -- you have no know when a fish is ready to  31 split.  That's when the wind drying comes in, they  32 have to be when it's first taken from the river, it  33 hangs overnight in a well-aired place, so that it's  34 firm when it's being split.  You can't split a fresh  35 fish, it has to be firm.  So, all those things you  36 have to watch, cleaning part and all the different  37 parts that are removed from the fish have names.  The  38 whole fish it has a name, and the things that are  39 taken from the sides there is names for it, and all  40 those different parts.  And they are used differently.  41 So, now it's not being done, there is not too many  42 smokehouses at Hagwilget.  43 Q   Do some of the Hagwilget fisherpeople go to Moricetown  44 to fish?  45 A   Yes.  46 Q   And are there restrictions on the availability of  47 sites, of fishing sites, at Moricetown? 1  A  2  3  4  5  6  Q  7  A  8  Q  9  10  A  11  Q  12  13  14  15  A  16  Q  17  18  A  19  Q  20  A  21  Q  22  A  23  Q  24  A  25  Q  26  27  A  28  Q  29  30  A  31  Q  32  A  33  Q  34  35  A  36  Q  37  A  38  39  40  41  42  43  Q  44  A  45  Q  46  A  47  Q  2115  There is, because of -- like I said, you if you are --  if you are not a member of that band you are  trespassing and at times there is these people,  officers, officers at canyon site want to know where  you are from.  Are these -- what kind of officers are these?  Fish and Wildlife.  Right.  Are there restrictions placed on your access  to those sites by those people?  Yes.  All right.  I am going to ask you about another  subject now, Mr. Joseph.  There have been what has  been called all clans feasts with the Carrier-Sekani  people, am I right about that?  Yes.  I understand there was an all clans feast in  Moricetown on April 6th, 1986?  Yes.  And did you attend this feast?  Yes.  And did you wear any special regalia or clothing?  Yes.  What did you wear?  I wore a button blanket.  Okay.  And were there other Wet'suwet'en chiefs who  attended this feast at Moricetown?  Yes.  Can you tell give us an approximate number of the  chiefs that were there?  About 50 chiefs.  And were there chiefs from the Carrier-Sekani nation?  Yes.  And are you able to say what number of chiefs from  their area attended at Moricetown?  There wasn't that many there, about a dozen.  And what was the purpose of the feast?  The purpose of the feast was that there was a dispute  about the boundaries and there had been talk about it,  but not at a gathering like that, so they were invited  down and were told of our traditional boundaries,  where our traditional boundaries were, by each chief  and --  This is by each Wet'suwet'en chief?  Wet'suwet'en chief, yes.  Yes.  Okay.  And did you speak at the feast yourself?  Yes.  And do you recall what you said at the feast? 2116  1 A  Well, I said that it was our traditional way of  2 solving matters like that, by a gathering where all  3 Wet'suwet'en were present, and there was witnesses to  4 everything that happened there and that we had already  5 lost quite a few of our rights and by gathering there,  6 we weren't there to challenge anyone, but to inform  7 them that there was a little misunderstanding in the  8 boundaries and that we knew that it wasn't -- it was  9 done by maybe some young people without consultation.  10 Whatever we did was always done by the advice of the  11 chiefs and elders.  12 Q   The chief, were the chief and elders, the chiefs who  13 were present at that meeting of the Wet'suwet'en?  14 A   Yes.  15 Q   Was there anything else that you said at the all clans  16 meeting in Moricetown that you recall?  17 A   No.  18 THE COURT:  Is this a convenient time to take the morning break,  19 Mr. Rush?  2 0 MR. RUSH:  Yes.  21  22 (Proceedings adjourned for short recess)  23  24  25  26  27 I hereby certify the foregoing to be  28 a true and accurate transcript of the  29 proceedings herein to the best of my  30 skill and ability.  31  32  33  34  35  36 Wilf Roy  37 Official Reporter  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47 THE  THE  MR.  1  2  3  4  5  6  7 THE  8 MR.  9  10 THE  11  12 MR.  13 THE  14 MR.  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32 THE  33  34  35  36 THE  37 MR.  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  2117  (PROCEEDINGS RECONVENED AT 11:30 a.m.)  REGISTRAR:  Order in court.  COURT:  Mr. Rush.  RUSH:  Yes, thank you, My Lord.  Just one brief other matter  is the question of the order.  Yes.  I'll perhaps just hand it to the clerk.  It's been  signed by all the parties.  All right, thank you.  Mr. Rush, can I ask that you  return the originals and the copies to Mr. Grant.  Yes.  Thank you.  COURT:  RUSH:  COURT:  RUSH:  COURT:  RUSH:  Q  A  Q  COURT  A  COURT  RUSH:  Q  A  Q  A  Mr. Joseph, before I leave the all clans' feast at  Moricetown in April of 1986, I wanted to ask you if  there was anything that you said about the land in  addition to what you've already told us that you've  said?  Yeah.  The land is still being passed down by the --  by our chiefs, the elders, and are still being used by  our people, and sometimes the holder of this territory  doesn't go there, sometimes elders for medical  problems, but there is always someone there, either  from the nephew, his nephews, his or her nephews or  else the -- from the father's side.  So you are -- one  is always informed of what's happening on the land, so  that is what our elders always wanted to know, if they  can't go there, they always made sure that someone  made use of it.  Were there other chiefs?  Mr. Rush, I'm sorry, but do I understand you to be  saying, sir, that these are things that you said at  the feast?  Yes.  Yes, thank you.  Now Mr. Joseph, were there other Wet'suwet'en chiefs  or elders who spoke at the all clans' feast?  Yes.  And can you say how many of those other Wet'suwet'en  chiefs or elders spoke?  Well not all of them spoke.  All the chiefs that were  there, about maybe 30 of them got up and expressed  their views and concerns.  All right.  I'm going to leave that all clans' feast  and ask you if there was another all clans' feast in 1  2  A  3  Q  4  A  5  Q  6  A  7  Q  8  A  9  Q  10  A  11  Q  12  A  13  Q  14  A  15  Q  16  A  17  Q  18  19  A  20  Q  21  22  23  A  24  25  26  27  28  29  Q  30  31  32  A  33  34  Q  35  36  A  37  38  Q  39  A  40  41  Q  42  43  A  44  45  Q  46  47  A  2118  1987?  Yes.  And was that on April the 4th in 1987?  Yes.  And that feast was in Burns Lake?  Yes.  And was that hosted by the Carrier Sekani people?  Yes.  Did you attend that?  Yes.  Were there other Wet'suwet'en chiefs who were there?  Yes.  Were there other Gitksan chiefs who were there?  Yes, there was Gitksan chiefs too.  And were there chiefs from the Carrier Sekani people?  Yes.  Can you tell us about how many people altogether were  present at this feast?  Somewhere 4 00.  Okay.  And what was the purpose of this feast, and how  did it relate to the feast that was held in April of  1986?  It was the same as the one -- as the feast in  Moricetown, except that some of the people that  couldn't make it to Moricetown came to this one,  because of the long ways for them to travel.  And they  were -- people from the north are pretty isolated up  there.  Farther north than Hazelton or Burns Lake.  Was this feast larger in numbers of people who  attended than the feast in Moricetown the year  earlier?  Yes, I think there was more and more observers here,  centre location.  And what was the purpose of this feast in Burns Lake  on April the 4th of 1987?  There was boundaries to be clarified and that was what  all the people were there.  And which boundaries needed to be clarified?  The one was the eastern boundary of the Wet'suwet'en  people.  And who was that the boundary with, who was on the  eastern side?  The Sekani Carrier's boundary and the Wet'suwet'en --  Gitksan, Wet'suwet'en boundary.  Yes.  And were there other boundaries that needed to  be clarified?  Yes.  There was one at Chapman Lake area. 1  Q  2  MR.  GOLDI  3  A  4  MR.  GOLDI  5  MR.  RUSH:  6  Q  7  8  9  A  10  Q  11  12  A  13  Q  14  A  15  MR.  RUSH:  16  THE  COURT  17  18  19  A  20  21  THE  COURT  22  23  A  24  MR.  RUSH:  25  Q  26  27  A  28  Q  29  30  A  31  THE  COURT  32  33  34  35  36  A  37  MR.  RUSH:  38  39  40  41  THE  COURT  42  MR.  RUSH:  43  44  A  45  THE  COURT  46  A  47  THE  COURT  2119  Okay.  E:  Which lake again?  Chapman Lake.  E:  Thank you.  And the boundary that you spoke of on the eastern side  that needed to be clarified, that is the first of the  two that you mentioned?  Yes.  Was there a Wet'suwet'en chief whose boundary that  was?  Yes.  Gitumskanees'.  Gitumskanees'?  Yes.  That's 194.  :  Thank you.  Excuse me, Chapman Lake is the easternly  boundary of or is near the easterly boundary of the  Wet'suwet'en claimed area, is it not?  No.  Chapman Lake is north of Smithers, between Babine  and Smithers, Babine Lake and Smithers.  :  Yes.  And isn't that the easterly boundary of the  Wet'suwet'en territory?  No, it's northern.  It's on the east side, I think His Lordship is getting  at?  Yeah.  It's -- I guess from your standpoint it would be  north-east?  Yeah, yeah.  :  What I'm trying to determine is when the witness is  talking about the easterly boundary that had to be  clarified and then he said also Chapman Lake, whether  he is talking about the same thing or two different  things?  Two.  There are two different points, but I think Your  Lordship is right in pointing out they are both on the  east side but one, Chapman Lake, is north of Smithers  so it would be north-east, and --  :  All right.  -- and the other one, Gitumskanees' territory is due  east; is that correct?  Yes.  :  Due east of Smithers?  Yes.  :  All right. 1 MR.  RUSH  2  Q  3  4  5  6  A  7  Q  8  9  A  10  Q  11  12  13  A  14  Q  15  A  16  Q  17  18  A  19  Q  20  21  A  22  Q  23  24  A  25  Q  26  27  A  28  Q  29  A  30  Q  31  32  A  33  Q  34  35  A  3 6 MR.  GOLD  37 MR.  RUSH  3 8 MR.  GOLD  3 9 MR.  RUSH  40  Q  41  42  43  44  45  46  A  47  Q  2120  Is the first of the two territories that you  mentioned, Mr. Joseph, the Gitumskanees' territory, is  that -- is that close to Burns Lake itself or at Burns  Lake?  It's close to Burns Lake.  Okay.  And is Burns Lake east or south-east of  Smithers?  South-east.  All right.  Now, did somebody who was in attendance at  the all clans' feast in Burns Lake, speak about  Gitumskanees' territory?  Yes.  And who was that?  Mrs. Silena John.  And Silena is spelt S-I-L-E-N-A, My Lord.  Did she  speak about the boundary to you beforehand?  Yes.  All right.  And did she state to you where the  boundary was located?  Yes.  And where she said the boundary was located, was that  the same as knowledge that you had?  Yes.  And did she then speak about the place of the boundary  at the feast?  Yes.  And did you hear her speak about it?  Yes.  And was that -- what she said, was that the same as  knowledge which you had received earlier?  Yes.  Okay.  And you had been told, had you not, by  Gitumskanees about the boundary?  Yes.  3:  Well perhaps you should not lead after this.  I don't intend to.  3:  Well you were leading with that question.  Yes, that's true, and I wouldn't have thought that  would have been a problem, but if it is, I certainly  don't want to pursue it.  Mr. Joseph, who was it that told you about the  place of where the Gitumskanees' boundary on the  south-east side was located?  Gitumskanees himself.  And that was Willie Simms? 2121  1 A  Willie Simms, yes.  2 Q   Yes.  And to your knowledge, why was it that he wasn't  3 there at the feast himself to talk about it?  4 A   Yes.  I -- and I told him about the feast, and he was  5 coming with me, and at the last -- the last minute or  6 the last day I went to see him he was sick, and he  7 said that he can't make it.  So he said, "You speak on  8 my behalf, and I will also tell other people about  9 what happened to me."  So he was related to Silena and  10 that's -- I was telling Silena about that when she  11 said, "I know where the boundary is and I will -- I'm  12 going to tell about the boundary."  13 Q   Okay.  And did you also then subsequently tell the  14 chiefs who were gathered there about the boundary of  15 Gitumskanees' territory?  16 A   Yes.  17 Q   And you mentioned that Silena John was related or is  18 related to Willie Simms.  Can you tell His Lordship  19 what the relationship is, how was she related?  20 A   She was from the same clan as Willie and Willie's  21 mother, but she married into Stoney Creek and her  22 step-father was also the former Gitumskanees.  23 Q   All right.  Now, as a result of what you heard said by  24 Silena John and what you said by -- what you said at  25 this feast, was there any opposition from anyone in  26 the gathering to what you had said about the place of  27 the boundary?  2 8 A   No.  2 9 Q   You mentioned that there was a boundary at Chapman  30 Lake which needed to be clarified?  31 A   Yes.  32 Q   And are you able to say whether there were speakers  33 about that boundary at the gathering?  34 A   Yes.  35 Q   And can you tell us who spoke at that time to the  36 feast about Chapman Lake?  37 A  Woos, Roy Morris, spoke on Chapman Lake.  38 Q   And was there agreement at the feast about the  39 placement of the boundary at Chapman Lake?  40 MR. GOLDIE:  Well, My Lord, I think the better question — I  41 object to that question.  I think the better question  42 was, was there anything said by anybody who had an  43 interest in the boundary, and what was said?  Who had  44 an interest opposed to that of the witness?  45 THE COURT:  I suppose the question as posed does require the  46 witness to draw a conclusion from what someone else  47 said, Mr. Rush. 1  MR.  RUSH:  2  3  4  THE  COURT  5  MR.  RUSH:  6  Q  7  8  A  9  Q  10  11  12  A  13  THE  COURT  14  15  A  16  THE  COURT  17  A  18  MR.  RUSH:  19  Q  20  21  22  A  23  24  25  26  Q  27  28  29  30  A  31  Q  32  33  34  A  35  36  Q  37  A  38  Q  39  A  40  Q  41  42  A  43  Q  44  A  45  Q  46  A  47  THE  COURT  2122  Well I'm quite prepared to have Your Lordship draw  the conclusion, so I'll lead the witness to the point  where you can.  :  All right.  Was there more than one person who spoke about the  boundary other than Chief Woos?  Casimel Williams of Burns Lake spoke on it.  All right.  And was there -- was there any dissent or  did anyone speak against the place where the boundary  was determined or said to be?  No.  :  I gather they both said the same thing, then, did  they?  Yes.  :  And no one disagreed with them?  No.  Were there other boundary discussions at the Burns  Lake feast apart from the Gitumskanees' territory and  apart from the Chapman Lake boundary?  Yes.  There was other discussions between the Gitksan  and the people at Bear Lake.  But it was done in  the -- in the Gitksan language and I don't speak it,  so --  Before I leave the Gitumskanees territory, I did want  to ask you if there was anyone else apart from Silena  John and yourself that spoke about that Gitumskanees'  territory?  Paddy Leon.  And that's fine, thank you.  What else happened at the  feast, apart from discussions about territory and  boundary?  They had contests between the different villages,  different chiefs.  What kind of contests?  Dancing, traditional dancing.  Pardon me?  Traditional dancing.  And were the Gitksan and Wet'suwet'en chiefs involved  in the contests?  Yes.  Who won the contest?  The Gitksan, Wet'suwet'en tribe counsel chiefs.  I take it there was dancing in regalia, was there?  Yes.  :  Can I interrupt again?  I'm sorry, Mr. Rush, but 1  2  3  4  MR.  RUSH:  5  THE  COURT  6  MR.  RUSH:  7  THE  COURT  8  MR.  RUSH:  9  THE  COURT  10  MR.  RUSH:  11  Q  12  13  A  14  Q  15  A  16  Q  17  A  18  Q  19  A  20  MR.  RUSH:  21  22  THE  COURT  23  MR.  RUSH:  24  THE  COURT  25  26  MR.  RUSH:  27  28  29  30  THE  COURT  31  MR.  RUSH:  32  Q  33  A  34  MR.  RUSH:  35  THE  COURT  36  37  MR.  RUSH:  38  THE  COURT  39  MR.  RUSH:  40  Q  41  42  A  43  Q  44  45  A  46  47  THE  COURT  2123  when we are talking about the Gitumskanees' boundary,  is that one of the distinct territories that are  claimed, and is it --  Yes.  :  -- and is that name of a House.  Yes.  :  Gitumskanees?  Yes.  :  All right, thank you.  Sorry.  Mr. Joseph, which House is Gitumskanees -- the chief  Gitumskanees in?  He is in the House of Hag wil negh.  Hag wil negh?  Yes.  That was --  Ginehklai yex.  Ginehklai yex?  Yes.  My Lord, you have Hag wil negh, I just can't put my  finger on it right away.  :  Twenty-nine, is it?  Yes.  It will be on the -- that's right.  :  But I'm still not clear on what is the name of the  House.  Yes.  It's Ginehklai yex, My Lord.  Just give me a  moment, I'm sure I can get that spelling for you.  I  think you should have that spelling.  That's G-I-E --  sorry, G-I-N-E-H-K-L-A-I, Y-A-X (sic).  :  Y-A-X?  Yes.  Ginehklai yex; is that correct, Mr. Joseph?  Yes.  Yes.  :  Then who is -- who is 29 then, that's Sylvester  William?  Hag wil negh.  :  Yes.  Is Hag wil -- what is the relationship of Hag wil negh  and Gitumskanees?  Both the head chiefs of the Ginehklai yex.  Is Hag wil negh a chief of a higher standing than  Gitumskanees or a lower standing?  He was first high chief from Ginehklai yex, because he  had the totem-pole of Hagwilget.  :  Thank you. 1 MR.  RUSH  2  Q  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  A  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  Q  18  A  19  Q  20  21  A  22  Q  23  24  25  A  26  27  Q  28  A  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  Q  41  42  A  43  Q  44  A  45  Q  46  47  2124  All right, thank you.  Now Mr. Joseph, I'm going to ask you about another  subject now, and I want to ask you about the process  of choosing a successor to a high name.  And my  question is, when a successor to a high name is  chosen, who must be consulted about the choice of the  successor by the House or the clan?  The successor to high name is chosen by -- first by  the clans themselves, the House.  The House that the  chief is from, that House will meet, and from there  they will take it to the clan -- not the House but the  clan itself, and they are told about this choice, and  there is an agreement from the whole Clan, and then it  is also taken to the House on the father's side, they  are also told what the decision is.  Must the House on the father's side be consulted?  Yes.  And are these informal consultations which occur  before a feast?  Yes.  Would the chiefs from other clans at a feast ever  express their opposition or displeasure at the choice  of a House -- by a House of a new chief?  The only displeasure the chief would voice would be a  procedure of how the name is given or taken.  And what do you mean by procedure?  One is that -- at one feast there was a chief that  took a name and because of time it was -- they decided  that this chief won't be renamed by the guests, that  they were just going to give them money to each high  chief for renaming this person without him or her  doing so.  But when that was announced, one of the  chiefs got up and said that no, it can't be done that  way, you have to rename this chief.  And then the host  had another meeting and then announced that they would  follow this chief's suggestion, that they'll do it the  proper way and rename the chief the way it's supposed  to be done.  Okay.  And did that example that you've given, did  that take place at a feast within the last year?  Yes.  Can you say about when that occurred?  November sometime.  All right.  Do you know of a situation or an example,  Mr. Joseph, where a chief at a feast has expressed his  displeasure or opposition to the choice of a successor 2125  to a high name, do you know of that situation?  Yes.  And what has happened in there, can you --  There was a lady chosen for a name, but the lady was  busy elsewhere.  When you say she was busy elsewhere?  She was going to school.  And where was she going to school?  I think it was U.B.C..  All right.  And her name was -- the chief said that she is not  present here, and we need -- whenever we need to make  decisions we need that person's advice, so do we have  to have someone here?  And in our area, it's -- it is  critical time in that area, because of some deaths  that are happening, House chiefs passing on, and there  is difficulty in contacting some of these people that  are not living there.  So it was -- the House chief  from that clan said that the name should go to a  person that's -- that's there and active who is always  there.  So the name went to another person.  And did the name pass then to a person who was present  in the area?  Yes, yes.  And what was the name that was passed?  It is Tsaibesa.  Tsaibesa?  Yes.  2 9 THE COURT:  That's number 66?  30 MR. RUSH:  115.  It probably appears twice.  31 THE COURT:  Yeah.  I've got T-S-I-B-A-S-A-A.  32 MR. RUSH:  Yes.  Although the spelling — I think you are  33 referring to the Gitksan Tsibasaa and there is a  34 Wet'suwet'en Tsaibesa, and that name is found at 115.  35 THE COURT:  Thank you.  36 MR. GOLDIE:  Is there now a person holding that name, is that  37 the evidence of the witness?  38 MR. RUSH:  Oh yes, yes.  39 MR. GOLDIE:  Could we have that name to fill it in.  4 0 MR. RUSH:  41 Q   Yes.  Mr. Joseph, the present holder of that name, of  42 Tsaibesa?  43 A  Andrew George.  44 Q   Yes.  Andrew George?  45 A   Yes.  46 Q   Now at what feast did this occur, what you've just  47 described to us?  1  2  A  3  Q  4  A  5  6  Q  7  A  8  Q  9  A  10  Q  11  A  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  Q  23  24  A  25  Q  26  A  27  Q  28  A 1  A  2  3  Q  4  A  5  Q  6  7  8  9  10  11  A  12  13  Q  14  15  A  16  Q  17  A  18  19  20  Q  21  22  A  23  Q  24  25  26  27  A  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  Q  42  43  44  45  A  46  47  2126  It happened at the funeral feast of the older brother  of Andrew who was Tsaibesa at that time of his death.  And was that Jimmy George?  Yes.  Now, I have a question that is related to this, but on  the -- on the question of the passing of territory,  and I want to ask you, Mr. Joseph, which chiefs must  be present at a Wet'suwet'en feast as witnesses when a  particular House chief describes the territory in the  feast?  Who must be present for that description?  All the chiefs from the other clans have to be  present.  Is there any special relationship that the father's  clan has at such an occasion?  Yes.  And what is that?  The father's clan have a right to go to these  territories, and the children also can go with the --  go to the father's territory.  And is it for this reason that they, too, must be  present?  Yes.  All right.  Now at such a feast, how do the other  chiefs -- how do the chiefs from the other clans know  about the territory which is being passed with the  name?  They are always in contact with each other through  their spouses and there is also, if they are on  father's clan, their obligation to the chief that has  departed, and they also -- is always an investment on  both sides, and you have to be present to accept any  compensation that happens.  And today it's still  happening, is always you -- there is always a feast  that's coming up and you are told when it is going to  be at -- they announce it at every feast, that they --  if it's the business of a House chief, there will be  people coming around inviting you, and the feast would  be at this time.  And if it's a younger person, they  are told at the feast where and when the feast is  going to be.  All right.  Apart from a chief's attendance at a feast  to witness the passing of name or territory, what --  were there other ways in which the chiefs were  knowledgeable about the territory of a new chief?  They at times knew the boundary because they may be  the next -- they may be in the next territory.  And  everybody -- all the chiefs know -- know their 2127  1 boundaries, and they say this is where the turn around  2 is, where they turn around, if they happen to come to  3 a boundary.  They never cross over.  So it is -- a  4 chief may have boundaries all around, around his  5 territory.  6 Q   And in respect of names and the passing of names, were  7 there other ways in which there was knowledge passed  8 about the names of new chiefs and possible candidates  9 as successors, other than at a feast or in the  10 discussions you've already related to us?  11 A   Yes.  There is the crests, like boundary would have a  12 marking, a carving on a boundary, and then there you  13 have the totem-poles and songs and their personal  14 crests relate to the land or some -- whatever happened  15 in the land, so there is always some reminder of  16 different feasts that have happened.  It is too -- I  17 personally know how these were kept alive.  If an  18 elder is -- two or three of them are visiting and they  19 would sing these songs, and when one quits, they say  20 well -- or the other one might say, "Do you remember  21 where this came from?"  If they don't, well they  22 say -- they tell them this was that feast when this  23 chief died or when this chief erected his totem-pole.  24 And that was going on at every community, discussions  25 going on and how names, songs, and crests were  26 acquired.  27 Q   Were you present when your grandparents and parents  28 talked of this?  29 A   Yes.  30 Q   Are there meetings today, Mr. Joseph, meetings of the  31 chiefs where they get to discuss and together resolved  32 disputes in the community?  33 A   Yes.  34 Q   And do you know of an example of such a meeting?  35 A   Yes.  It was -- there was a little argument between --  36 not argument but they -- they knew -- there was a lake  37 and Woos would come up and fish in that lake, and it  38 was right on the boundary.  But my Uncle Gisdaywa told  39 him that it was in his territory, and they carried  40 that over for little while until each side checked it  41 out, is it true that this is in his boundary?  We  42 asked someone else, pretty soon it was settled, said,  43 "You are right, this was in your territory."  So  44 things like that when kept on, they didn't fight or  45 anything, but they checked out whenever -- if they  46 weren't sure, they checked it out.  47 Q   Is the Gisdaywa that you are referring to in this THE  9  10  11 MR.  12 THE  13  14  15 MR.  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  2 4 MR.  25  2 6 THE  27 THE  2 8 MR.  2 9 MR.  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  2128  example --  A   Yes.  Q   -- was that Thomas George?  A   Yes.  Q   And is the Woos that you are referring?  A  Woos.  Q   Who was that?  A  Matthew Sam.  COURT:  Sorry?  A  Matthew Sam.  RUSH:  Matthew Sam.  COURT:  Thank you.  A   They both -- they were both Gidumden but there was in  terms of the boundary.  RUSH:  Q   And what was the lake that was the subject matter of  this dispute between?  A   Delgii yeez Wenii C'etsehts'ut.  Q   And that's referred to at 319.  Not the total name is  referred to there.  C'etsehts'ut is?  A   Lower.  Q   Is lower?  A   Yeah.  RUSH:  Yes.  Maybe Mr. Mitchell can just help us with the  spelling of that, thank you.  TRANSLATOR:  C'etsehts'ut, C-'-E-T-S-E-H-T-S-'-U-T.  COURT:  Thank you.  GOLDIE:  Is there an English name for that lake?  RUSH:  Q   Mr. Goldie has asked if there is an English name to  that lake.  Do you know of such?  A   No.  Q   Mr. Joseph, in whose territory was the lake found to  be as resolved?  A   It was Gisdaywa.  Q   Thank you.  A   But then the creek that came from it was in Woos'  territory.  Q   I see.  How long have the Wet'suwet'en people been  passing names and territories at feasts?  A   It's -- it's long before the whiteman came, because  it's in our legends and songs of different things that  happened.  Q   How long, Mr. Joseph, has the feast system been in  place among the Wet'suwet'en people?  A   Feast systems is the same.  It's the different crests  that we have, different -- on different lands, are all 1  2  3  Q  4  5  A  6  7  Q  8  9  10  11  12  A  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21 THE  COURT  22  23  A  24 THE  COURT  2 5 MR.  RUSH:  26  Q  27  28  29  30  A  31  32  Q  33  A  34  Q  35  A  36  37  38  39  40  Q  41  42  A  43  Q  44  A  45  Q  46  A  47  Q  2129  in songs and legends, so they -- the same as the land  that it's the people own are all in the songs.  And the clan system, how long has that been in place  among the Wet'suwet'en people?  It's just as -- same, it was clan system was here long  before any white person or Europeans came here.  In your testimony you've talked about trails in the  territories and you talked about trading and you  talked about a system of trading.  And can you say how  long, to your knowledge as a Wet'suwet'en chief, these  have been in existence?  They -- the trading and the trails in the -- before  the coming of the whiteman were different locations.  Like the major trading place in Smithers area was  south of Hudson Bay Mountain and down the lake.  And  that is where they did all their trading until the  steamboats started coming up it.  The trading was more  at Hazelton.  So before Europeans came our people had  spoke nearly all languages because of trading with  each other, all the neighbouring nations, languages.  :  Sorry, what was the name of the lake at the foot of  Hudson Bay Mountain?  McDonell.  :  McDonell Lake, oh yes.  Mr. Joseph, I'm going to ask you to turn your mind to  another subject now on -- in respect of Gisdaywa's  territory.  I'm going to ask you if you have a  registered trapline on your hunting territory?  I am -- I don't register a trapline in my name, but  I'm part of a company that's registered trapline.  You are part of a company?  Yeah.  And who is in the company?  My uncle Joseph George registers the trapline, and my  name is on the -- on the registration, my brother Bert  Joseph, and cousins Jack Mitchell, Johnny Mitchell.  Johnny is deceased and so is Mary Mitchell.  They are  all on the company.  And is your Uncle Joseph George, is he a Wet'suwet'en  chief?  Yes.  Does he have a Wet'suwet'en chief's name?  Yes.  Is that name Hoog'et?  Yes.  That's 122.  Is Joseph still living today? 1  A  2  Q  3  4  A  5  Q  6  7  A  8  Q  9  10  A  11  Q  12  13  A  14 THE  COURT  15  16 MR.  RUSH:  17  Q  18  19  20  21  A  22  Q  23  A  24  Q  25  26  A  27  Q  28  29  A  30  Q  31  A  32  Q  33 THE  COURT  34 MR.  RUSH:  35  Q  36  37  A  38  Q  39  A  40  Q  41  42  A  43  Q  44  45  A  46  Q  47  2130  Yes.  He is right here in the courtroom.  Yes.  What part of Gisdaywa's hunting territory is the  trapline located on?  It's on the western side in the Biiwanii Nadina area.  Okay.  I neglected to ask you how old Joseph George  is, approximately?  Roughly around 77, I believe.  Okay.  And was -- is Joseph, was he related to the  former Gisdaywa, Thomas George?  He was the younger brother.  Okay.  And is Joseph a member of the House of  Kaiyexweniits?  Yes.  :  Sorry, I missed that.  Joseph George is younger  brother of?  Thomas George, the former holder of Gisdaywa name.  And as a member of the House of Kaiyexweniits,  does Joseph have a right to hunt and trap and go out  on the territory of Gisdaywa?  Yes.  Is that the case with other members of the House?  Yes.  And is that so with the people who are the  registered -- on the registered trapline?  Yes.  Now do you know, Mr. Joseph, when Joseph George first  registered the trapline?  It was after the death of Joseph Nahloochs.  After the death of Joseph Nahloochs?  Yes.  Joseph Nahloochs is 100.  :  Thank you.  And I think you told us earlier that Joseph Nahloochs  was your grandfather?  Yes.  And he also held the name of Gisdaywa?  Yes.  Now is -- do you recall a date when that occurred, Mr.  Joseph?  It is, I believe, 1946.  And were you -- were you present when Mr. Joseph  George registered this trapline?  Yes.  And was Joseph George using this trapline at the time  of his first registering it? 1  A  2  Q  3  A  4  Q  5  A  6  Q  7  A  8  Q  9  10  A  11  Q  12  A  13  Q  14  15  16  17  A  18  Q  19  20  A  21  22  23  Q  24  25  A  26  Q  27  28  A  29  30  31  32  33  Q  34  35  36  37  38  A  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  Q  46  47  A  2131  Yes.  Were there others who were using it at that time too?  Yes.  There is all my uncles use it, the trapline.  Did that include Thomas?  Thomas and Sylvester.  Is this Thomas George and Sylvester George?  Our brother.  Yes.  They were among those who were using it at the  time?  Yes.  Is that right?  Yes.  You said that it was upon the passing on of Joseph  Nahloochs that Joseph George registered the trapline  in about 1946.  Had Joseph Nahloochs been registered  on that trapline before Joseph George?  Yes.  Do you know -- do you have any knowledge as to when he  first registered this trapline?  He was always been on the Biiwanii, and then  registrations were first started and when that came  about, he had to register.  Okay.  Do you know if Joseph Nahloochs could read or  write?  No.  Is that a no that he could not read or write, or no  you don't know?  He -- he could not read or write, but he knew the  other system that Father Morris introduced.  He had  his own prayer book from the system that Father Morris  developed, he could use that but he didn't read the  English or write in English.  Okay.  Just dealing with Joseph Nahloochs and when he  was present at Gisdaywa's territory in Biiwanii you  said, and during the time that he had registered the  trapline, who else was with him out on the territory  hunting or trapping?  All of his nephews, like my Uncle Thomas who's  Gisdaywa, lived out there, and Nahloochs' sons Leon  and Dan Joseph were out there, and they -- his sons  used it, and they weren't of the House of  Kaiyexweniits, but they were his sons so they used it.  And my father was Leon Joseph, so we were out there,  my brother, younger brother was born out in Biiwanii.  Now, you formed part of the company along with Joseph  to register the trapline?  Um-hmm. 1  Q  2  3  A  4  1  5 MR.  GOLDIE  6  7  8  9  10  11  12  13 MR.  RUSH:  14  Q  15  16  17  18  A  19  20  Q  21  A  22  Q  23  i  24  A  2 5 MR.  GOLDIE  2 6 MR.  RUSH:  27  Q  28  29  30  31  A  32  Q  33  A  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  Q  41  42  43  i  44  A  45  Q  46  47  A  2132  Now why did you -- why did you register and have your  name placed on the register of the trapline?  It was at the advice of my grandmother, Mrs. Felix  George, that our names were put on the list.  :  Well My Lord, perhaps my friend intends to clarify  this, but the genealogy which we have been given shows  that Cicilia George was the wife of Felix George, and  that Mr. Joseph is the grandson of Felix George.  The  evidence as I now understand it, is that Mr. Joseph is  the grandson of Joseph Nahloochs, and no doubt there  is an explanation for it, but my note is at odds with  the genealogy.  I think this was something that was explained in the  very first few questions that I asked of Mr. Joseph,  but we can -- in what sense do you ever refer to  Joseph Nahloochs as your grandfather?  He was my father's father, and he was also my  grandmother's first cousin.  And you refer to him as grandfather; is that right?  Yes, yes.  And as I understand it, that is commonly done among  Wet'suwet'en people?  Yes.  :  That assists me, My Lord.  Thank you.  Did the portion -- did the place that was  registered on the registration of the trapline, did  that take in the whole of Gisdaywa's hunting  territory?  No, I don't think it did.  Okay.  Can you explain if you know why it didn't?  It was divided -- split in two by either the D.I.A. or  the Fish and Wildlife, and why it happened, I can't  understand.  And it was a big area, so it was split in  two, but then the Fish and Wildlife regulations say  that you can't own two -- you can't register two trap  lines, so they split one big trapline into two and say  that, you only entitled to this.  Okay.  Were there other -- the other trapline that is  on Gisdaywa's territory, the other large trapline,  was -- is that owned or registered today by  Wet'suwet'en people?  Some parts of it.  All right.  Do you know of other Wet'suwet'en people  who have registered traplines in your territory?  I think J.B. Tom. 1  Q  2  A  3  Q  4  5  A  6  Q  7  A  8  Q  9  A  10  Q  11  A  12  Q  13  A  14  Q  15  A  16  17  Q  18  A  19  Q  20  A  21  Q  22  23  24  A  25  Q  26  27  A  28  29  Q  30  31  32  33  THE  COURT  34  MR.  RUSH:  35  36  37  THE  COURT  38  MR.  RUSH:  39  Q  40  41  A  42  MR.  RUSH:  43  44  THE  COURT  45  Q  46  A  47  Q  2133  J.B. Tom?  Yes.  Okay.  Now J.B. Tom, is he -- he's a Wet'suwet'en  person?  Yes.  And of what House is he a member?  Kaiyexweniits.  That is your House?  Yes.  And does he have a right to be on the territory?  Yes.  Is J.B. Tom still living?  Yes.  Okay.  And is -- does he have a company?  I have never seen his register, so he might -- he has  two brothers that live in so they might have a copy.  And who are the two brothers, do you recall?  Joseph and Felix.  Joseph Tom and Felix Tom?  Yes.  Yes, all right.  Is Andrew George a Wet'suwet'en  person who has a registered trapline on Gisdaywa's  territory?  Yes.  Okay.  And do you -- do you know the area of his  registration?  He is on the eastern side of Biiwanii Kwe, on Ts ee  Ggexw C'en.  All right.  My Lord, reference is made by Mr. Joseph  to Biiwanii and Biiwanii Kwe.  Biiwanii Ben is 111 for  the spelling of Biiwanii, and Kwe, as you know, is  spelt K-W-E, referring to river.  The other --  :  Is there a number for Biiwanii Kwe?  I was just looking for it.  There is a Bii wenii  c'eek, which is 138, and that's the forks, of course,  and I don't see Biiwanii Kwe.  :  All right.  Well I'm sure we'll come across it.  I just wanted to ask you, Mr. Joseph, Biiwanii Kwe  that's Owen River?  Owen Creek.  Owen Creek, sorry.  Yes.  And just to complete this  series of questions if I may, My Lord?  :  Certainly  Andrew George is the son of Thomas George?  Yes.  Formally Gisdaywa? 2134  1 A   Yes.  2 Q   Yes.  And was the area where Andrew George traps  3 today, is that an area where formerly Thomas trapped?  4 A   Yes.  5 Q   And is that an area where formerly Thomas had a  6 residence and hunted?  7 A   Yes.  8 MR. RUSH:  Thank you, My Lord, I can adjourn at this juncture.  9 THE COURT:  All right, thank you.  Two o'clock, please.  10 THE REGISTRAR:  Order in court.  Court stands adjourned until  11 2:00 p.m..  12  13 (PROCEEDINGS ADJOURNED AT 12:30 p.m.)  14  15 I hereby certify the foregoing to be  16 a true and accurate transcript of the  17 proceedings herein transcribed to the  18 best of my skill and ability.  19  20  21  22  23  24 Toni Kerekes,  25 O.R., R.P.R.  26 United Reporting Services Ltd.  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47 2135  1 THE REGISTRAR:  Recalling the matter of Delgamuukw versus Her  Majesty the Queen.  Before we broke at lunch, Mr. Joseph, you had told me  that J. B. Tom was a person who has a trapline  registered on the Gisdaywa territory and you told me  that Joseph Tom and Felix Tom are part of this  company.  Was there anyone else who was part of this  company who is now deceased that you know of?  There was a younger brother, Thomas Tom, who is  deceased.  :  I didn't get the name.  Thomas Tom.  Now you were telling us that Andrew George had a  registered trapline on your hunting territory.  And is  Andrew part of a company, to your knowledge?  Yes, I think he is.  Is Andrew and the company, are they on your territory  with your permission?  Yes.  Now, are there other Wet'suwet'en people who have  registered traplines on your hunting territory in the  Biiwanii area?  Yes.  And who are they?  Matt Michell.  Matt Michell?  Yes.  Mattias Michell.  And, what is his relationship, if any, to your house?  He is a Gidumden person.  He doesn't belong to our  house.  Which house does he belong to, if you recall?  He is with the house of Madeek.  Now, was he related to the house of Kaiyexweniits,  your house, in any way?  He was the same clan.  And, is Houston Tommy, you know of Houston Tommy?  Yes.  Was he related to Houston Tommy?  Matt Michell was Houston Tommy's son-in-law.  Now, did Mattias Michell have the house's and your  permission to be on the territory?  Yes.  :  I am sorry Mr. Rush, I don't think I have ever had a  definition of a Gidumden man.  Gidumden is found at 301 on your list.  That's the  2  3 MR.  RUSH:  4  Q  5  6  7  8  9  10  A  11  12 THE  COURT  13  A  14 MR.  RUSH:  15  Q  16  17  18  A  19  Q  20  21  A  22  Q  23  24  25  A  26  Q  27  A  28  Q  29  A  30  Q  31  A  32  33  Q  34  A  35  Q  36  37  A  38  Q  39  A  40  Q  41  A  42  Q  43  44  A  45 THE  COURT  46  4 7 MR.  RUSH: 4  ]  5  6  A  7  Q  8  A   '  9  10  Q  11  A  12  Q  13  14  A  15  Q  16  A  17  Q  18  A  19  Q  20  A  21  Q  22  2 3 MR.  GOLDIE  2136  1 spelling there.  2 THE COURT:  301?  3 MR. RUSH:  Yes, that should -- the spelling of Gidumden, correct  me if I am wrong, Mr. Joseph or Mr. Mitchell, is  G-i-d-u-m-d-e-n?  Yes.  Now, Gidumden means wolf; is that right?  Wolf or a bear, it's the name of all the three houses  combined as a whole, they are known as Gidumden clan.  And it is one of the clans of the Wet'suwet'en people?  Yes.  And that Michell was a member of the Madeek house,  which is one of the houses of Gidumden?  Yes.  Is Matt still living today?  No.  Did you know Matt Michell?  Yes.  Had you ever travelled with him at the territory?  Yes.  And did he ever say anything in respect of the  territory? ?  No -- no, I am not going to object to that, my  24 lord.  2 5 THE COURT:  Thank you.  26 A  Well, we were flying over the area and he pointed it  27 out to me that this is Gisdaywa territory, that I am  using the territory.  And was that a part of the territory that you knew as  Gisdaywa's territory?  Yes.  When was that, Mr. Joseph?  About 1983, I think it was.  Now, were there others who are from the Wet'suwet'en  people who had a registered trapline on your  territory?  There was Mr. Dick Lattie, who has passed on.  Now his  son has registered it.  Is that L-a-t-t-i-e?  Yes.  Do you know his son?  Yes.  And what relationship, if any, did he have to your  house?  Dick Lattie's grandfather was from the house of  Kaiyexweniits.  28  2 9 MR.  RUSH  30  Q  31  32  A  33  Q  34  A  35  Q  36  37  38  A  39  40  Q  41  A  42  Q  43  A  44  Q  45  46  A  47 2137  1 Q   What was his name?  2 A   His name was Hoog'et.  3 Q   And his Hoog'et a name of your house?  4 A   Yes.  5 Q   And is James Lattie the present person who has  6 registered the trapline in a portion of your  7 territory, is is he a member of your house?  8 A   No.  9 Q   And is he on your hunting territory with your  10 permission?  11 A   No.  12 Q   And do you know how he has come to be there, do you  13 know by what means he has registered his trapline?  14 A  As I said, his father's, Dick Lattie's grandfather was  15 Hoog'et from our house, Kaiyexweniits, and his father  16 who was Dick's mother, I knew her Christian name was  17 Margaret and her Indian name was Yea.  18 Q   Y-e-a?  19 A   Yes.  She came to my grandmother before territories  20 were registered and asked her permission.  She wanted  21 to use -- she wanted to go to an area where her father  22 trapped, so my grandmother gave her permission to go  23 there.  So, while they were there registrations were  24 introduced and they, her and her husband, registered  25 it.  So that's how they are on, they have registered  26 that part of the territory.  27 Q   Do you know a person by the name of Catherine Michell?  28 A   Yes.  29 Q   Do you know if Catherine Michell has a registration of  30 a trapline on your territory?  31 A   Yes.  32 Q   And do you know, is she a Wet'suwet'en person?  33 A   Yes.  34 Q   Does she have a name, a Wet'suwet'en name?  35 A   Yes.  36 Q   Do you know that name?  37 A  Weeliih.  38 Q   How would that be spelled, Mr. Mitchell?  39 THE SPELLER:   W-e-e-1-i-i-h.  4 0 MR. RUSH:  41 Q   Now, do you know which house that Weeliih is from?  42 A   House of Knedebiis.  43 Q   My lord, Knedebiis is numbered 105.  44 Now, Mr. Joseph, do you know the area of your  45 territory where she has a registered trapline?  46 A   It's south of Biiwanii Ben, southwest of Biiwanii Ben.  47 Q   And do you know, does she use that territory or do you 1  2  A  3  Q  4  A  5  Q  6  7  A  8  Q  9  10  A  11  12  13  Q  14  15  A  16  Q  17  A  18  Q  19  20  21  22  23  24  A  25  Q  26  27  A  28  Q  29  A  30  Q  31  32  A  33  Q  34  35  36  A  37  38  Q  39  A  40  41  Q  42  43  44  45  46  A  47  2138  know who does use that?  Leonard uses that area, Leonard George.  And do you know, is he registered there?  No.  Does Leonard use that part of the territory with your  permission?  Yes.  Now, are there other persons that you know of who have  registrations of traplines in Gisdaywa's territory?  Some, there is some non-native that have  registrations.  I think Wes Guard was one of them and  the other one I can't remember the name.  Do these persons have your house's or your permission  to be on your territory?  No.  Do you know how they came to have registrations there?  No.  Now, you have said to us that Andrew George traps on  part of your territory and you have described where  that is.  When Andrew is no longer able to use the  territory or when he passes on, what will happen to  that portion of the territory where he has a  registered trapline under the Wet'suwet'en system?  It will go back to Kaiyexweniits.  Now, are there relatives or children of Andrew George  which are members of your house?  Yes.  Who is that?  I think it's Brian.  And does Brian now and -- well, firstly, does Brian  now have rights to Kaiyexweniits' territory?  Yes.  Will his rights change in any way if Andrew is unable  to use the territory where he is registered or when  Andrew passes on?  No, he will still, he still has rights to use the  territory.  And how is Brian related to Andrew?  Andrew's son.  Brian is also Gidumden clan and adopted  into -- he has been adopted into Kaiyexweniits.  Now, you indicated that Joseph George, your uncle, had  registered a trapline on the hunting territory of  Gisdaywa in about 1946.  When he did that, what did  you understand the reason that the trapline was  registered by Joseph?  Well, the reason is that, as I said before, my  grandmother was very cautious about things that are on 1  2  3  4  5  6  7  Q  8  9  10  11  A  12  13  14  Q  15  A  16  Q  17  18 THE  COURT  19 MR.  RUSH:  20  Q  21  22  A  23  Q  24  25  26  A  27  Q  28  A  29  Q  30  A  31  Q  32  A  33  Q  34  A  35  Q  36  A  37  Q  38  A  39  Q  40  A  41  Q  42  A  43  Q  44  45  46  47  2139  paper and she wanted -- she found out, someone told  her if she didn't register it or our son didn't  register it, that that territory would be lost, so  they wanted -- she wanted to see on paper that we  still held the territory.  Gidumden or Kaiyexweniits,  still had the territory.  Now, just one final question about territory and the  use made of the territory by house members.  Are the  decisions as to who uses the territory, are they made  in a feast or are they made outside of a feast?  The decisions are made within the house members  themselves outside of a feast and then it is announced  at the next feast what decisions that have been made.  And is that how members of your house make decisions?  Yes.  I wonder if we could place the exhibit book before Mr.  Joseph.  It's Exhibit 62, my lord.  :  Yes.  Mr. Joseph, if you would, please, turn to tab two,  which you have identified as Gidumden seating?  Yes.  I would ask you, if you would, to look to the left  side of the back row and six places from the left side  is a name Mary A. Alec.  Yes.  You see that?  Yes.  What does the initial stand for?  A, they call her Mary Ann.  Mary Ann?  Yes.  Do you know Mary Ann Alec?  Yes.  Which of the houses of Gidumden is she in?  She is in Kaiyexweniits.  That's your house?  Yes.  And is according to this she holds the name of Unlogh?  Yes.  Is that right?  Yes.  I notice that the spelling on the seating chart is one  letter different from the spelling on the list, the  list has it has in number 126 without the K but the L  is underlined.  How is that pronounced, how is Unlogh pronounced? 1  A  2  Q  3  4  5  A  6  Q  7  A  8  Q  9  10  11  12  A  13  Q  14  A  15  Q  16  A  17  Q  18  A  19  Q  20  MR.  GOLDI  21  MR.  RUSH:  22  Q  23  A  24  Q  25  THE  COURT  26  MR.  RUSH:  27  28  29  30  THE  COURT  31  32  MR.  RUSH:  33  Q  34  A  35  Q  36  A  37  Q  38  A  39  Q  40  41  A  42  Q  43  THE  COURT  44  A  45  MR.  RUSH:  46  47  2140  Unlogh.  Now, Mary Ann Alec, which -- was she born into the  house of Kaiyexweniits or was she adopted into the  house?  She was adopted.  And by whom was she adopted?  She was adopted by Thomas George.  And I think if you look to the exhibit number 62, tab  1, on the second page there is no sign for Mary Ann  Alex there, if you look at the genealogy, tab 1, and  page 2.  Do you have page two there, Mr. Joseph?  Yes.  Should Mary Ann Alec appear in this genealogy chart?  Yes.  And from which house was she adopted, if you know?  She was adopted from Madeek's.  That's Gidumden as well?  Yes.  Thank you.  E:  Whereabouts on the genealogy should she be then?  She appears as a dotted line from Thomas George?  Yes.  Now, Mr. —  :  Thomas George is on page one, isn't he?  Yes, but you see the dotted line coming from Thomas  George to Rita George, my lord, and I -- he says that  Mary Ann Alec would be from that dotted line, as I  understand his testimony.  :  Well, we had -- well, is she in the same line as  Rita, Andrew, James and Mae Belle?  Do you have the second page of tab 1, Mr. Joseph?  Yes.  Do you see where Rita is located?  Yes.  And that is a dotted line coming from Thomas George?  Yes.  Would Mary Ann Alec be on the same line or on the same  level, if you will, of --  As Rita and George.  All right.  :  Well, she was adopted by whom?  Thomas George.  My lord, the evidence has been that Rita was adopted  by Thomas George as well.  And the dotted line is a  representation of an adoption and that's why the line 1  2  3  4  THE  COURT  5  MR.  RUSH:  6  Q  7  8  MR.  GOLDI  9  10  11  MR.  RUSH:  12  13  14  15  MR.  GOLDI  16  17  18  MR.  RUSH:  19  20  THE  COURT  21  MR.  RUSH:  22  Q  23  24  A  25  Q  26  A  27  Q  28  29  30  A  31  32  Q  33  A  34  Q  35  36  A  37  Q  38  39  A  40  Q  41  A  42  Q  43  A  44  Q  45  A  46  Q  47  A  2141  emanates from Thomas George.  The evidence here is  that she would be at the same level but on a dotted  line.  :  All right.  Now, Mr. Joseph, I am going to ask you to back to tab  two.  E:  I take it it's not relevant to know who Mary Ann  Alec married or anything else such as the rest of the  details in the genealogy?  Well, it isn't, because the persons -- you are open  to ask questions about that if you wish, but her  husband, if -- well, I am happy to ask those  questions.  It might make it easier.  E:  The question I have put was is it relevant to know  who her husband is?  I am not looking for information  that isn't relevant.  I don't think it's relevant but I am also not opposed  to asking the question.  :  I rather you didn't, if it isn't relevant.  That's why I chose not to ask it.  Back to tab two, Mr. Joseph.  Do you see Mae Belle  George?  Yes.  Beside Mary Ann Alec?  Yes.  All right.  And the spelling of her name is Iss  Madeek, is that a correct spelling of her name, so far  as you understand the name?  I pronounced it like that and my uncle corrected me  saying it should start with a Y.  It should be Yiss Madeek?  Yes.  All right.  Now, is the spelling that should appear  there, Mr. Joseph, Y-i-s-s, m-a-d-e-e-k?  Yes.  Now, the holder of that name, Mabel George was adopted  into the house of Kaiyexweniits?  Yes.  And she was adopted by Sylvester George?  Yes.  And does she have any children?  Yes.  And do you know how many she has?  No, I don't.  Is one of those children Ron George, for example?  Yes. 1  Q  2  3  A  4  Q  5  6  A  7  Q  8  A  9  Q  10  11  A  12  13  14  Q  15  16  A  17  Q  18  19  20  A  21  Q  22  23  24  25  26  A  27  Q  28  A  29  Q  30  A  31  Q  32  33  A  34  35  36  37  38  Q  39  A  40  Q  41  A  42  Q  43  A  44  Q  45  A  46  47  Q  2142  Now, are her children adopted or were they adopted by  Sylvester George into Kaiyexweniits' house?  No.  And do you know which house Ron George or, that is to  say, Mabel George's children, which house they are in?  They are in the house of Spookw.  Now, is Spookw, there is a chief Spookw, Mr. Joseph?  Yes.  Is chief Spookw, is he Gitksan or is he a Wet'suwet'en  chief?  He is a Gitksan chief, but has very strong ties with  the Wet'suwet'en, because of family or his nephews,  nieces, live in Hagwilget, Moricetown and Burns Lake.  Your wife's family, is related to Spookw's house; is  that correct?  Yes.  My father-in-law is from Spookw's house.  Now, your children, Mr. Joseph, are not on the  genealogy.  And is the reason for that because they  are in your wife's house?  Yes.  I want to now ask you about another subject, this  deals with a feast that was held by the Gidumden clan,  and you told us in your testimony last June the  Gidumden clan was going to host a feast in mid-August  of 1987.  Do you recall that testimony?  Yes.  Did you hold that feast?  Yes.  When was it held?  October the 10th, 1987.  And what was done at that feast, what were the items  of business which occurred at the feast?  It was a -- memorial stones put up for my aunt  Madeline and the stones put up for Mrs. Mary Duncan,  from the house of Spookw, and there was some names  given, Woos, and adoptions, and I had to pay for my  button blanket.  Was this button blanket a new blanket or an old one?  A new one, yes.  Was this blanket placed on you at this feast?  Yes.  Were there crests on it?  Yes.  What were the crests?  The crest on it was the arrow and the bear cubs, and  the box.  And did this relate to the history that you told us 1  2  A  3  Q  4  5  A  6  Q  7  A  8  Q  9  10  A  11  12  Q  13  A  14  Q  15  16  A  17  Q  18  A  19  Q  20  21  A  22  Q  23  A  24  Q  25  A  26  Q  27  A  28  Q  29  A  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  Q  41  A  42  Q  43  A  44  Q  45  A  46  Q  47  2143  about in your testimony?  Yes.  You said that a memorial stone was paid for Madeline,  which Madeline was that?  Madeline Seymour.  And was this stone raised at the feast?  Yes.  And who did that, who did the work of raising and  looking after the stone?  It was her father's, on her father's clan, who was  Goohlaht.  That is Lucy Namox the person who holds that name?  Yes.  You told us, Mr. Joseph, about the stone, another  stone being raised for Mary Duncan?  Yes.  And you said that she was of Spookw's house?  Yes.  Was this Spookw's house, you said Spookw was Gitksan,  was this a joint feast?  Yes.  Put up by Gisdaywa and Gidumden people?  Yes.  And people in from from Spookw's house?  Yes.  And you said that some names were passed, were they?  Yes.  And can you tell us who took a name at this feast?  One of them was names that belonged to Spookw's mother  and that name went to a young woman, who was also  related to Spookw.  Spookw's daughter took the name,  and another one is a young boy about, I think he is  eight years old, and the mother wanted a name for him,  and approached me and saying that he wanted to be in  the house of Kaiyexweniits, and that I, if I could,  give him a name.  So, I had to consult with my uncles  and told him about that, and then we decided on a name  and went back to them and told them this is the name  that's available.  So --  And what was the name?  Hooliits.  And was that name passed at the feast?  Yes.  To whom was it given?  Abraham Kenni.  And, was the name of Kalay, a name Kalay, K-a-1-a-y,  was that passed? 1  A  2  Q  3  A  4  Q  5  A  6  Q  7  A  8  9  Q  10  A  11  Q  12  13  14  15  16  A  17  Q  18  A  19  Q  20  21  A  22  Q  23  A  24  Q  25  26  A  27  Q  28  A  29  Q  30 THE  COURT  31  A  32 MR.  RUSH:  33  Q  34  35  36  37  A  38  Q  39  A  40  Q  41  42  43  A  44  Q  45  46  A  47  Q  2144  Yes.  At this feast as well?  Yes.  And who took that name?  Ida Austin.  Okay.  Who was invited to the feast?  All the chiefs, Wet'suwet'en chiefs from Moricetown,  Burns Lake, and --  Were Gitksan people invited?  Yes, Gitksan, yes.  Okay.  Mr. Joseph, I want to ask you about tab four,  if you will refer to tab four in Exhibit 62, a  photograph, I think you have identified the people in  the photograph as Mary and Thomas George.  Do you have  that photograph?  Yes.  And there are two poles there?  Yes.  Mary George, I think you said at the time held the  name of Tsaibesa; is that correct?  Yes.  And of which house was Mary George?  Smogelgem.  The pole shown and depicted in the photograph, is that  the pole of Smogelgem or is that the pole of Tsaibesa?  It's Tsaibesa.  Is that her personal pole?  Yes.  I see.  :  That's the one behind her?  Yes, behind.  All right.  Now, I want to ask you a question about  the other pole, and I think that you indicated that  the figure on the bottom of that pole was of the pack  man?  Yes.  Is that correct?  Yes.  And I neglected to ask you in your -- when you  testified earlier, about the burl that you made  reference to?  Yes.  Is there a burl or that burl that relates to the pole  is that shown in the photograph?  Yes.  Where is that? 1  A  2  3  4  5  6  Q  7  8  A  9  Q  10  11  A  12  Q  13  14  A  15  16  MR.  RUSH:  17  Q  18  A  19  20  21  22  23  24  Q  25  A  26  Q  27  28  A  29  Q  30  A  31  32  Q  33  A  34  Q  35  A  36  Q  37  THE  COURT  38  MR.  RUSH:  39  40  41  42  THE  COURT  43  MR.  RUSH:  44  Q  45  46  47  2145  It's between the two persons there.  You see the  outline of it right next to Mary and it was, I think,  the top part of it is showing painted there with sort  of a triangle, that was supposed to be carved out but  they didn't, my uncle didn't carve it out.  It appears to be behind the white pickets; is that  right?  Yes.  Is it close to where Mr. Thomas George's right hand is  located?  Yes.  Do you know the history of that crest, the pack man  crest and of the burl?  Yes, why the pack man is in our language, he is -- the  name, they named the pole Esghel.  I think that's 297 on the list.  Yes.  And why --  The reason it's called Esghel, this burl on the ground  is supposed to have been carved out, hollowed out and  so it would be lighter.  And whenever the house of  Kaiyexweniits had a feast, that burl was put on the  back of this man on the bottom of the pole.  As if he  were packing.  That's why they call it the pack man.  This is one of the crests of Kaiyexweniits, is it?  Yes.  Now, the place where these two poles are located,  is -- do you know the place, where that is located?  Yes.  What is it?  It's -- they call it the area right there, where it is  Dudii nai c'en'.  And that is across from Hubert station?  Yes.  And Hubert station is between Quick and Telkwa?  Yes.  Thank you.  :  The very last was across from --  Quick.  Sorry, it's the place depicted in the  photograph is across from Hubert station and that  Hubert Station is located between Quick and Telkwa,  two villages.  :  Thank you.  Now, I am going to ask you now, Mr. Joseph, about  another subject regarding the village of Hagwilget.  Do you know when the village of Hagwilget was settled  at the place where it is located? 1  A  2  Q  3  4  A  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  Q  19  A  20  Q  21  A  22  23  24  Q  25  26  A  27  28  29  30  Q  31  A  32  Q  33  A  34  Q  35  36  A  37  Q  38  39  A  40  Q  41  42  43  44  A  45  46  47  2146  When?  When that occurred or perhaps I should ask you how it  came to be there, if you know?  It happens that one spring in Moricetown there was no  fish, no fish came, people went fishing every day and  they couldn't catch anything.  So they sent out young  people, patrol, to find out what was wrong down the  river.  So they were gone for a while, then came back  and said that there was a -- they told the people in  Moricetown that there was a slide at Hagwilget.  And  that's why the fish weren't get through.  So the  people all, all the people in Moricetown, all the  Wet'suwet'en people went down there and started  clearing away rocks so that the fish could get by  again.  So it must have taken them a little while to  clear, make a passageway for the fish to get through.  That's why they moved to Hagwilget.  The people moved down as a result of this?  Yes.  And are you able to say when this occurred?  They, at the time, always said that they didn't  know -- they didn't know the year but it was a long  time before the white man came to the area.  And who told you about how the people settled at  Hagwilget?  It's all the elders knew about, they always explained  it to the younger people, how we got there, where we  fished before, and we often ask why is there a rock in  the middle of the canyon.  Was Joseph Nahloochs one of those who said this?  Yes.  And was Mr. Felix George one of those?  Yes.  Now, the place where that is located, is that in  Gitksan or Wet'suwet'en territory?  It's in Gitksan.  And were the Wet'suwet'en people who moved to  Hagwilget permitted to stay there by the Gitksan?  Yes.  And was there or were you told by your uncle Joseph  Nahloochs and your grandmother, Mrs. Felix George,  who it was that gave permission to the Hagwilget, the  people who moved to Hagwilget, to stay there?  Yes, it was in Spookw's hunting territory and they  always had dealings with Spookw, and they knew him  very well and he was an uncle to most of the people,  related to most of the people that moved there.  So 1  2  3  4  5  6  Q  7  8  A  9  Q  10  11  A  12  Q  13  14  A  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  Q  22  A  23  Q  24  A  25  Q  26  27  A  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  Q  38  A  39  Q  40  A  41  Q  42  A  43  Q  44  A  45  46  47  2147  there wasn't too much -- they just moved in there and  he told them it was fine for them to be there.  Not  all stayed, not all stayed, when the clearing was  finished, fish could get up the river again, some  moved back to Moricetown.  All right.  Now, I want to ask you, you live at  Hagwilget, do you?  Yes.  And I understand you are a chief councillor at  Hagwilget?  Yes.  And how long have you been a chief councillor at  Hagwilget?  The first time I was elected was around 1961 as a  councillor and I have been, one time or another, been  the chief councillor for a while, then sometimes I  step down and I have been out of council from 1961  until '87 for about four years, I think.  But the rest  of the time I was either had a councillor or chief  councillor.  And are you a councillor or chief councillor now?  No.  And when did you stop being a councillor?  At the last election.  And what kinds of decisions does the council make in  relation to the people at Hagwilget?  There is major projects that happen in the village,  like sewer and water line, housing and health and  education, fire protection, all those have to be --  you have to apply for the money and justify the --  that you need the money, you need those, there is  priorities in the first place, and one of the  priorities was fire, health and I think protection, so  those three have to be dealt with first.  Until after  that's completed, then you are going to other projects  like halls and recreation facilities.  You said you an applied for money from some source?  Yes, from the DIA.  Department of Indian Affairs?  Yes.  Are you governed by certain guidelines?  Yes.  Is there a means that decisions get made by the band?  Yes.  And you pass a band council resolution and  forward that to the Department of Indian Affairs, and  at times they are not followed, they are just -- sort  of they take it sort of as a recommendation. 2148  1 Q   Are decisions taken by the chief councillor for the  2 council which affect the passing of names or  3 territorial ownership of the Wet'suwet'en chiefs?  4 A   No.  5 Q   Do the chiefs themselves play any role in the  6 operation of the band and the decision of the  7 councillors?  8 A  Which chiefs?  9 Q   The hereditary chiefs.  10 A  Well, they play a, sometimes they are asked their  11 advice and some of the older people there are  12 hereditary chiefs that have been on the council and  13 know what is happening and sometimes they are asked  14 about what should be done.  So they -- everyone has a  15 role to play.  16 Q   And are there types of decisions where the hereditary  17 chiefs and other members of the houses who are not on  18 the council, where they play a role in the decisions?  19 Are there certain kinds of decisions in your  20 experience where hereditary chiefs other than those  21 who are councillors?  22 A  Well, they, when we are dealing with -- when we had  23 meetings about the rock being blasted out was the time  24 when the hereditary chiefs really made their views  25 known.  That was a decision, something that they  26 really opposed.  They experienced the blockage of the  27 river at one time and that was a natural thing that  2 8 happened, they know what will happen.  But then when  29 they -- when the rock was blasted out, it affected  30 them again.  So they knew what was -- what would  31 happen.  So they went -- when the meetings were held  32 at Hagwilget for the removal of the rocks, the  33 hereditary chiefs from Moricetown were there, the  34 hereditary chiefs from Babine were there and they all  35 said the same thing.  36 Q   Mr. Joseph, when you participated as a councillor or a  37 chief councillor at the Hagwilget band, did you  38 consider that your participation was in any way giving  39 up of your rights as a hereditary chief to your land  4 0 and to your name?  41 A   No.  I -- the advice that I was given all my life was  42 that we have lost, we have lost a lot of things in the  43 past and that we were all told the same thing, we all  44 heard the same thing in the feast hall, that this loss  45 of our land had to be dealt with sometime in the  46 future and that's been -- that's the first thing in  47 your mind when you are on a reservation, you are 2149  1 fenced in, you are looking out and then if the people  2 want to go through your reserve, or make a bridge,  3 build a highway, blow it up, they don't need your  4 permission to do that.  We have opposed everything  5 that's been put on us, but it's always been carried  6 out by the government.  Or whoever was in charge.  So  7 everyone, every Gitksan-Wet'suwet'en people, has, in  8 person, has in the back of your mind that you have a  9 duty to perform.  Your elders, what your elders have  10 told you, how they suffer, is something that -- the  11 humility they have gone through, is something that we  12 have witnessed and that is why we -- we have to listen  13 to what the elders said in the feast hall.  It wasn't  14 visible, it wasn't heard by the outside, because it  15 was the -- the feast was going on in the reserve or  16 wherever they gather, but the message was always  17 there, we have to deal with this land that's been  18 taken from us.  19 Q   As the chief councillor and, to your knowledge, while  20 you were a councillor, did the people at Hagwilget or  21 the Wet'suwet'en people accept the reserve system?  22 A   No.  23 MR. GOLDIE:  Well, surely that question is far too broad, my  24 lord.  As I understand it, the witness is being  25 questioned in his capacity as a band councillor or  26 chief councillor of a band and his band I think is the  27 Hagwilget.  If my friend is asking about the  28 inhabitants, the members of that band, who are not  29 necessarily the same as all Gitksan or Wet'suwet'en  30 people, about their attitude, I think the foundation  31 should be made for whom is he speaking and the basis  32 which he speaks.  33 MR. RUSH:  With respect, I think it has.  It's clear from his  34 testimony now and in June, that there are chiefs of  35 the Wet'suwet'en who reside in places other than the  36 reserves, who have obligations in places like  37 Moricetown and Hagwilget and who participate in the  38 feast system and in the clan system in both places.  39 And in respect of Mr. Joseph's knowledge, I think he  40 has indicated how many years it has been where he has  41 been a participant in the band and the structure of  42 decision making that happens with band councillors and  43 chief councillors going back to 1961.  44 THE COURT:  I think, Mr. Rush, the question is such, and  45 particularly in view of the context that I would only  46 take the answer to include all the various capacities  47 that have been mentioned.  My difficulty is not that, 2150  1 my difficulty is this question of what is meant by  2 this word "accept".  3 MR. GOLDIE:  That, of course, was what I was getting at.  If he  4 is speaking as a chief counsellor, he has testified  5 that decisions are made by band resolutions.  So one  6 can say produce the band resolutions that support the  7 evidence you have given with respect to the  8 acceptance.  If we are not talking about band  9 resolutions, then my objection goes beyond the  10 capacity in which he speaks, I say it is impossible to  11 determine or it is impossible for him to give an  12 answer which can be tested.  13 MR. RUSH:  Well, I think if my friend wants to test the scope of  14 the answer he is entirely entitled to do so in terms  15 of his cross-examination.  16 THE COURT:  But, you see, he has said we have opposed everything  17 that has been put upon us by those in charge but it  18 has always been carried out, by the government or  19 others.  When Mr. Joseph said that, I took it to mean  20 that he was speaking there not in any particular  21 capacity, but as a person with the widest kind of  22 experience as a witness in this trial and he was  23 describing a state that he believes still exists, that  24 everything that has been put upon him, I am not sure  25 what that means exactly, but everything that has been  26 put upon him has been opposed.  It's terribly vague  27 and general but I think that's the sense of what he  28 said and it seems to me it isn't particularly useful  29 to figuratively carve him up, that he said it in this  30 sense but it doesn't include in another sense.  31 Doesn't seem to me to be possible to make those kinds  32 of distinctions.  That's the way I treat the evidence  33 at the moment.  It's a general description that he  34 says that everything that's happened, everything  35 that's been done by government has been opposed.  And  36 I really have difficulty in treating it any other way.  37 MR. RUSH:  Well, your lordship is dealing with one question and  38 my friend is objecting to another.  I am happy to deal  39 with the objection by being, or attempting to direct  40 the witness to a more specific areas.  But perhaps  41 what I will do is do it in respect to both.  I think,  42 my lord, you are dealing with the question that  43 preceded the most immediate question and my friend is  44 objecting to that.  If there is obvious difficulty  45 here, I am happy to try and resolve that by some more  46 specific questions.  47 THE COURT:  By all means.  Go ahead. 1 MR.  RUSH  2  Q  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  A  11  Q  12  A  13  Q  14  A  15  16  17  18  19  Q  20  21  A  22  23  24  Q  25  26  27  28  29  30  A  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  Q  44  45  A  46  47  2151  Mr. Joseph, I want to direct you to your being the  chief councillor or councillor at Hagwilget and your  capacity there, as that's what we were dealing with in  respect of the questions.  And ask you if in that  capacity it's -- whether the system of reserves and  the system of band councils was agreed to by you and  by your other councillors, so far as you have  knowledge?  The system of the reserves?  Yes.  You mean when it was first introduced?  No, when -- when you were in council?  Well, we had to go go by the regulations, the  guidelines that were put up by the DIA, otherwise if  we didn't, we would lose the funding.  So we had to go  by their guidelines on the services that we were  getting on the reserve.  What would have been the implications of losing the  funding?  Losing the funding would mean that you were set back  another year or two on some of the projects, like  water lines or sewer.  And when you said that members of your council, and  again I am speaking about your own knowledge as a  chief councillor or councillor, had opposed what had  been done by the government, and I am paraphrasing  your answer, what did you mean by that, what was  your --  Well, I always come back to the destruction of the  rock, that was opposed by the council and by the  people and it was carried out through  Order-in-Council.  That was one of them.  And just  lately, we have had problems with CPS, Catholic Public  Schools, and we were dealing with them, and they  threatened to lock our children out of the -- they  locked them out of the gym for one thing, but they  threatened to lock them out of the classrooms too.  So  there was some disagreement there and we held the  payments until this was resolved.  And we instructed  the DIA that we were going to withhold the fees until  this was resolved.  That is fees that would have been going to the  Catholic Public Schools?  Yes.  So it was held, frozen for a while, but while  were were still negotiating with the CPS, the DIA paid  for the tuition. 2152  1 Q   When you said "when we were negotiating", do you or  2 does that mean you and your band councillors?  3 A  We were trying to negotiate with the DIA.  4 Q   Does that mean you, or the --  5 A   Yes, the band council.  6 Q   Were there any other examples of that kind that you  7 had intended by your answer?  8 A  As far as I am concerned, it's the two that I remember  9 but there has been other chief councillors that have  10 been on council before and after me now.  11 Q   All right.  I am going to move on to something else,  12 if you wish to take the afternoon break.  13 THE COURT:  Yes, better do that.  Thank you.  14  15  16  17  18 I hereby certify the foregoing to be  19 a true and accurate transcript of the  20 proceedings herein to the best of my  21 skill and ability.  22  23  24  25  26  27  28 Wilf Roy  29 Official Reporter  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47 2153  1 (PROCEEDINGS RECONVENED AT 3:30 p.m.)  2  3 THE REGISTRAR:  Order in court.  4 THE COURT:  Mr. Rush.  5 MR. RUSH:  6 Q   Mr. Joseph, I was going to turn to another area now,  7 and ask you if when earlier you had referred to Bii  8 wenii c'eek on Gisdaywa's territory, whether Bii wenii  9 c'eek was known as a gathering place of Wet'suwet'en  10 people?  11 A   Yes.  12 Q   Was this like -- or was it a winter village?  13 A  When my grandfather lived there, it was sort of a  14 place for his family.  He trapped out of there some  15 of -- like Thomas George himself lived up further up  16 Biiwanii Teezdlii.  17 Q   He lived at Biiwanii Teezdlii?  18 A   Yes.  And he had quite a few people there, but Bii  19 wenii c'eek was known as -- it was the last place the  20 trappers met with other trappers.  Some trappers were  21 going west of Bii wenii c'eek, some were going south,  22 south -- south-west, and others went east from there.  23 So that's the last place the trappers or the hunters  24 met before they went back to their own territory.  25 MR. RUSH:  Bii wenii c'eek is 138, My Lord.  2 6 THE COURT:  Thank you.  2 7 MR. RUSH:  2 8 Q   And what occurred at the times when the trappers or  29 the hunters met at Bii wenii c'eek?  30 A   They heard news about other hunters and trappers, how  31 each -- everybody made out for the season.  On their  32 way back, that is -- they met there going -- coming  33 and going, when they are going to the trapline that's  34 the last stop they made, when they came in from their  35 hunting, that was the first stop they made.  So it was  36 an important place for them.  They told -- before they  37 left they said one day they would be there so that  38 they -- when they left Bii wenii c'eek they were all  39 travelling together back to Houston.  40 Q   Now, I want to ask you about one of the tabs in the  41 document book, 62, and this is tab 16.  It's a  42 photograph, and this is a photograph of the carving of  43 a pole; is that right?  44 A   Yes.  45 Q   And is that you in the photograph at the left end?  46 A   Yes.  47 Q   And did you -- did you -- were you involved here in 1  2  A  3  Q  4  5  A  6  Q  7  A  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  Q  20  21  A  22  Q  23  A  24  Q  25  26  A  27  Q  28  A  29  Q  30  31  A  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  Q  41  42  A  43  44  45  46  47  Q  2154  teaching people how to carve?  Yes.  And were you yourself a carver of totem-poles at that  time?  Yes.  And when did you become interested in carving?  I became interested in carving at the very early age,  and there was four totem-poles at Hagwilget Canyon,  and when you are young you are told to help pack up  the fish that's caught down the canyon, and it's quite  a steep climb for people to pack fish up.  And I used  to do my part, pack one or two fish, and I take a rest  at one of these place by some of these totem-poles,  and I often wondered how they were made, and so I ask  my grandparents about that, and they told me how --  how it was done, why it was there, and that's why --  that's how I know the different clans, different  Houses.  And did you spend some time of your life carving poles  and other --  Yes.  -- items?  Yes.  And the poles that you carved, did these poles contain  crests of the Wet'suwet'en clans?  Yes.  And Houses?  Yes.  And can you tell us why the poles are important among  the Wet'suwet'en people?  Poles, first of all, they represent your crest and  your clan's Houses, and there is not only that there  is songs involved, and territories, and the history of  your House is always there.  Someone -- if a younger  person wants to find out all they do is ask an elder,  and they -- they explain them why the poles are there.  So it's -- it's there for the -- to mark the Head  Chief's House memorial, it's also there for  educational purposes for the younger people.  Okay.  And how long have the Wet'suwet'en people had  poles?  Well they talk of their crests in legends of where  they had their poles, how -- in what villages they had  poles.  So they had them poles before -- oh, quite a  long time ago.  Same time as our clan system has been  here.  And who has told you about the poles and their crests 1  2  A  3  4  5  6  7  8  Q  9  10  A  11  Q  12  13  14  A  15  Q  16  A  17  Q  18  19  A  20  Q  21  A  22  Q  23  A  24  25  Q  26  A  27  Q  28  29  A  30  Q  31  32  A  33  Q  34  A  35  Q  36  37  38  A  39  40  41  42  43  44  Q  45  46  A  47  2155  on the poles and the histories?  Well like I said, I asked when we had our old --  Kaiyexweniits -- the last -- the remaining parts of  Kaiyexweniits was still at Hagwilget Canyon, the pole  was still standing there, so I had -- I ask about  that, and that's how I learnt the story of our  totem-pole at Hagwilget.  And did you learn it from specific people such as your  grandfather?  Yes, yes, grandfather and grandmother.  And there are crests as you've indicated on these  poles.  Are there House crests and personal crests on  the poles?  Yes.  Are they different?  Yes.  Is there, for example, with Gisdaywa, is there a  personal crest for Gisdaywa, the chief?  Yes.  What is that?  The personal crest of Gisdaywa is the arrow.  Okay.  And is there a -- what is the House crest?  The House crest is the cubs on the -- you see on the  pole.  And can there be more than one crest?  Yes.  I should have asked you, the cubs that you are  referring to, are those the bear cubs?  Yes.  Now the -- you've made mention, Mr. Joseph, about the  raising of a headstone?  Um-hmm.  Are crests ever placed on headstones?  Yes.  And what is the circumstances under which a headstone  will be raised and a pole -- how does it relate to a  pole being raised, if it does?  It's your personal crest is on your -- on the grave  stone, same as it would be on a totem-pole, so it's --  like I see my father-in-law's stone has the white wolf  on it, so that was the personal crest of Wo'o.  And  that stone was erected by his nephew who took the name  of Wo'o.  Are the crests placed on a headstone as an alternative  to placing it on a pole?  It is there as an alternative, but they can put it on  the pole too, when there is a pole. 1  Q  2  A  3  Q  4  5  6  A  7  Q  8  A  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  Q  22  23  24  25  A  26  Q  27  28  A  29  Q  30  A  31  Q  32  A  33  Q  34  A  35  Q  36  37  A  38  Q  39  A  40  41 THE  COURT  42  43  4 4 MR.  RUSH:  45  4 6 THE  COURT  4 7 MR.  RUSH:  2156  So it can be one or the other?  Yes, yes.  Now are there occasions in which the successor to a  Wet'suwet'en chief's name is announced before the  chief passes on?  Yes.  And why is it done that way?  It's -- when the chief is getting up in age, they  always looked to their younger nephews or cousins, and  they see the qualities this young person has, so they  make -- they go to their House chiefs and say that  they are going to step down as a chief and that the  younger person is going to take the name.  But at  times they retain their seat and other times they just  step aside.  They do that to make sure that the person  that takes their name goes and use his -- his or her  territory, make sure that it's someone is out there  using it, and they also make sure that they are --  their name that they have passed is kept alive.  Like  everything is -- will be like in the past.  Now upon the passing of the chief, who are the members  of the House who are responsible for the territory  between the funeral feast and the headstone feast  among the Wet'suwet'en?  It would be the subchiefs of that House.  Now in your testimony in June, you made reference to a  Wet'suwet'en man by the name of Skin Dyee?  Yes.  And can you tell us what clan he is a member of?  Gilseyhu.  That's 132.  And is he a member of a House?  He is the member of Goohlaht's House.  Goohlaht's House?  Goohlaht.  Thank you.  And do you know why he is called Skin  Dyee, where this name comes from?  No, I don't.  And is this a Wet'suwet'en name?  It has been used.  Mooseskin has been used by  Wet'suwet'en.  :  I'm sorry, Mr. Rush, but I haven't got it yet.  So  132 I noticed I was looking at is something quite  different.  You may have been looking for Goohlaht which is the  chief.  :  No, I was looking at 132.  Yeah, that's Gilseyhu. 2157  :  132 is Gilseyhu, yes.  Yes.  That's the Frog Clan.  :  But I was looking for Skin Dyee.  Yes.  Well it's not a -- it's not a Wet'suwet'en --  that's -- that's just what I was asking Mr. Joseph.  It's not a Wet'suwet'en name as such.  :  I see.  I feel badly admitting that I am completely  confused.  All right.  The word is skin, S-K-I-N.  Yes.  And Dyee is D-Y-E-E; is that right?  Yes.  And is Dyee, is that Wet'suwet'en, is that a word  that's known to you in Wet'suwet'en?  Dyee in Wet'suwet'en means a chief.  Okay.  Do you know, is "skin" a Wet'suwet'en word?  No.  All right.  Does the person who you referred to as  Skin Dyee, is that a person who has a Wet'suwet'en's  chief name?  Yes.  Do you know what that is?  Gubilc'un.  Gubilc'un?  Yes.  I wonder if you can spell it, Mr. Mitchell?  LATOR:  Gubilc'un, G-U-B-I-L-C-'-U-N.  :  And what is that again, that's a clan?  That's a chief's name, is it?  Chief's name, yeah.  That's the chief's name of the person who was referred  to you earlier as Skin Dyee?  Yeah.  And he, Skin Dyee, is a member of the Gilseyhu clan?  Yes.  And he is also in the House of Goohlaht?  Yes.  And in this court case would it be Goohlaht that  represents him?  Yes.  :  Goohlaht is under what number, please?  Yes.  It's on the plaintiff's list, unfortunately.  Do you have that?  4 6 THE TRANSLATOR:  Twelve.  47 MR. RUSH:  It's 12, My Lord.  Thank you.  1  THE  COURT  2  MR.  RUSH:  3  THE  COURT  4  MR.  RUSH:  5  6  7  THE  COURT  8  9  MR.  RUSH:  10  Q  11  A  12  Q  13  A  14  Q  15  16  A  17  Q  18  A  19  Q  20  21  22  A  23  Q  24  A  25  Q  26  A  27  MR.  RUSH:  28  THE  TRANS  29  THE  COURT  30  MR.  RUSH:  31  Q  32  A  33  Q  34  35  A  36  Q  37  A  38  Q  39  A  40  Q  41  42  A  43  THE  COURT  44  MR.  RUSH:  45 1  THE  COURT:  2  MR.  RUSH:  3  Q  4  5  6  7  A  8  Q  9  i  10  MR.  GOLDIE  11  12  13  MR.  RUSH:  14  MR.  GOLDIE  15  MR.  RUSH:  16  Q  17  A  18  19  Q  20  A  21  Q  22  A  23  Q  24  A  25  Q  26  27  28  29  30  A  31  Q  32  33  A  34  Q  35  36  A  37  ]  38  39  Q  40  A  41  THE  TRANSK  42  MR.  RUSH:  43  Q  44  45  A  46  47  Q  2158  All right, thank you.  Now in your testimony in June, Mr. Joseph, you  referred to the damage that was done to Smogelgem's  territory by logging, and as well damage done at the  Telkwa River territory, place that you had been to?  Yes.  And I would ask you, if you know, who caused that  damage, or how it was caused, if you know?  :  Excuse me, My Lord, I wonder if my friend has  reference to the evidence in June by any chance.  If  you don't, fine, if you do, I would like to have it.  I don't have it.  :  Well —  Go ahead?  Telkwa River.  It was done by people logging, like  Hilton Morris was one of them.  Okay.  And in respect of the Smogelgem territory?  That's east of Houston.  Yes?  That was the Hagman Brothers were in there.  Is that a logging outfit?  Yes.  All right.  Now I wanted to ask you, Mr. Joseph, if  you are aware of certain resources that are commonly  used by all Wet'suwet'en people, certain types of  resources that are commonly used by Wet'suwet'en.  Can  you tell us if there are, which ones?  Fur bearing animals.  Okay.  Are there -- were there places such as berry  sites which were used in common?  Yes.  Berry sites and --  Do you know of a place where the berry sites were  commonly used?  There is one area east of Moricetown that was used by  Moricetown people.  The mountain that they went to is  closest to Moricetown its Ba ghat deggii ts'o yi'.  Again, please?  Ba ghat deggii ts'o yi'.  ATOR:  224.  Yes, 224.  Was there another place in that area that  was used for berry picking?  Yes.  Two smaller mountain south of Ba ghat deggii  ts'o yi', and one was Ooniin'aay.  That's 225.  And do you know which kinds of berries 2159  1 were available on these sites?  2 A Huckleberries.  3 Q The other hill in the same area was?  4 A Decin g'id'uk.  5 Q Again?  6 A Decin g'id'uk.  7 Q Is that east of Ooniin'aay?  8 A Yes.  9 Q That's 226.  10 A Any -- the kind of berries you are asking me is always  11 up on -- higher up in the higher elevations is always  12 huckleberries, and the lower part in the valleys are  13 the blueberries.  On every berry picking site that's  14 the way it goes.  15 Q All right.  What was done with the berries taken from  16 those sites?  17 A They -- in the past they have always been made into a  18 cake, dried, and then they were made into a raisin,  19 dried again.  That's the way they were -- they were a  20 trade item as well.  21 Q Were there berry sites on Gisdaywa's territory?  22 A Yes.  There is on Dzel teel.  23 Q 183.  That's Morice Mountain, is it?  24 A Yes.  25 MR. RUSH:  Sorry, what did you say?  26 THE TRANSLATOR:  It's 215.  27 MR. RUSH:  215?  28 THE COURT:  No, it is 183.  2 9 MR. RUSH:  30 Q Sorry, would you give us the name again, Mr. Joseph?  31 A Dzel teel.  32 Q What is -- do you know the English name for that  33 mountain?  34 A Morice Mountain.  35 MR. RUSH:  Morice Mountain, okay.  So that would be 183, I  36 think.  37 THE TRANSLATOR:  It's in two places.  3 8 MR. RUSH:  39 Q Two places.  Covering ourselves twice here, My Lord.  40 There were berry sites here, were there?  41 A Yes.  42 Q All right.  And were these harvested by members of the  43 Kaiyexweniits House?  44 A Yes.  45 Q Were there any other places on Gidaywa's territory  46 where there were berries that were harvested?  47 A Any -- like any place that there was a burn, a fresh 2160  1 burn where they keep -- they change them, berry sites.  2 They don't use the same berry sites.  3 Q Right.  Were these berry sites, were these common  4 berry sites or were these Gisdaywa's berry sites?  5 A Gisdaywa's berry sites.  6 Q All right.  I had been asking you about common sites,  7 and I just wanted to return to that now.  Are you  8 aware of common sites where rock was taken or is taken  9 from?  10 A Yes.  11 Q And can you tell us first what kind of rock and where  12 these common sites were located?  13 A There is one east of Houston.  They -- where they get  14 the arrow, arrow heads, and they named the arrow head  15 and the creek where they got the arrow head from.  16 They called this -- the rock that they found it they  17 call it Buulai, so they named the creek Buulai Kwe,  18 it's east of Houston, one place where they got the  19 arrow heads.  2 0       Q And you knew that to be a common place?  21 A Yes.  22 Q Accessible to all Wet'suwet'en?  23 A Yes.  24 Q Can you help us with that, Mr. Mitchell?  25 A Buulai.  26 THE TRANSLATOR:  Buulai, B-U-U-L-A-I.  2 7 MR. RUSH:  2 8       Q Thank you.  29 Were there other places where rock or mineral was  30 taken --  31 A There was --  32 Q -- to your knowledge?  33 A -- a place south on the -- south of Nadina Mountain  34 where they got flint.  35 Q Nadina Mountain?  36 A Yes.  37 Q Yes.  And do you know the name of that place?  38 A I think they call the flint Biis, Biis k'et.  39 Q Biis?  40 A Biis, yes.  41 MR. RUSH: Mr. Mitchell?  42 THE TRANSLATOR:  Just the word Biis?  43 MR. RUSH: The whole word, Biis k'et?  44 A Right.  45 THE TRANSLATOR:  Biis k'et, B-I-I-S, K-'-E-T.  4 6 THE COURT:  E-G?  47 THE TRANSLATOR:  T. 1 MR.  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  MR.  MR.  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21 THE  22 MR.  23 THE  2 4 MR.  25 THE  2 6 MR.  27 THE  28  29  30  31  32  33 THE  34  35  36 THE  MR.  2161  RUSH:  All right.  GOLDIE:  Is that a common place open to all?  A   Yes.  RUSH:  Q   That was the site where they obtained flint, was it?  A   Yeah, flint.  Q   Was there a place where a dye such as red ochre was  taken from?  A   It's -- there is a place south of Evelyn Mountain --  east of Evelyn Mountain and west of Hudson Bay is a --  there is a pass they call it D'sih hanlii.  D'sih is  the red ochre.  Q   Yes.  And I have to ask you to help us again, Mr.  Mitchell, with the spelling.  And while Mr. Mitchell  is working on that, Mr. Joseph, what was this red  ochre used for?  A   It was a paint, a red -- a paint used for all -- any  painting that had to be done, red paint.  This place  where it was already mixed with mud, the water was  coming out.  TRANSLATOR:  Do you want the word said?  RUSH:  Yes.  TRANSLATOR:  D-'-S-I-H.  RUSH:  And I think the word was D'sih hanlii?  TRANSLATOR:  Hanlii, H-A-N-L-I-I.  RUSH:  Thank you.  COURT:  Mr. Rush, I'm not sure that I have the burden of the  witness' evidence.  When you talk, Mr. Joseph, about  taking rock and arrow heads and flint and red ochre  from these places, are you talking about members of  the Wet'suwet'en people taking those things?  A   Yes.  COURT:  You were taking -- you weren't talking about  somebody else coming along and taking it?  A   No, no.  COURT:  All right, thank you.  A   Because they were trading the arrow heads.  RUSH:  Q   All right.  Now just on the question of the rock  again, I wanted to ask you if there was a place where  obsidian was obtained from, to your knowledge?  A   I think obsidian was where you call it Buulai.  Q   That's the arrow head, is it?  A   Yeah.  Q   Was there another area outside of the Wet'suwet'en  territory where it is known to be a place where  obsidian can be obtained? 1  A  2  3  4  5  Q  6  7  A  8  Q  9  A  10  Q  11  12  A  13  Q  14  A  15  Q  16  A  17  18  Q  19  20  A  21  THE  COURT  22  23  THE  TRANS  24  THE  COURT  25  THE  TRANS  26  THE  COURT  27  THE  TRANS  28  THE  COURT  29  THE  TRANS  30  THE  COURT  31  MR.  RUSH:  32  Q  33  34  A  35  MR.  RUSH:  36  37  THE  COURT  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  2162  Yes.  It is south of Ootsa Lake but out of our  territory.  They just named the crossing where the --  where the Wet'suwet'en cross and farther on into --  they went south for that.  Okay.  And is the place where they crossed, is that a  border point?  Yes.  On the Wet'suwet'en territory?  Yes.  And what's the name of that border point or that  crossing, if you know?  They say Wet'suwet'en Le'na diil.  Okay.  And what does that mean?  Wet'suwet'en crossing.  Okay.  Where were the people crossing to, do you know?  They were on their way to get the rock, the arrow  heads.  Okay.  Do you want to give us the spelling Mr.  Mitchell?  L-- underline L, sorry.  L-E-'-N-A, D-I-I-L.  :  I'm sorry I'll have to ask you for that again,  please.  LATOR:  L-E — E' —  :  Sorry, can you start again.  LATOR:  L-E-'-N-A, D-I-I-L.  :  Was it L-E or L-E-E?  LATOR:  L-E.  :  Thank you.  L-E-'?  LATOR:  Yes.  :  Thank you.  Do you know where the place where the obsidian was  obtained, Mr. Joseph?  No.  They just went south for it.  All right.  I have a few more areas to cover, My Lord  which --  :  Well I would normally be quite content to sit a  little longer but I have been given a message and  there is something I have to look after so I will have  to adjourn.  I would be -- I would be disposed to  sitting a little longer in the afternoon in this trial  if counsel want to do so.  I wouldn't impose that on  counsel unless they agree.  There are things that I  just have to do in the morning that I think would make  it inconvenient to start a little earlier, but usually  in the afternoon it doesn't seriously imposition me,  but I remember the problems of counsel and if they 2163  don't think that that's a convenient thing to do, then  I will be guided by what they say in that regard.  And  perhaps -- we don't have to deal with it now unless  you want to.  I was going to ask Your Lordship to consider  whether you could commence half an hour later on  Wednesday.  I have a motion.  This Wednesday?  This coming Wednesday, and sit half an hour later.  I don't have any difficulty with that.  I think my  only concern is the durability of the witness who has  been speaking for most of the day.  Yes.  And I would only ask you to -- you take that into  account at the end of the day.  All right.  Well there is no difficulty with Mr.  Goldie's suggestion on Wednesday.  You would like to  start at 10:30 on Wednesday?  10:30, yes.  I have a motion in the Court of Appeal  and it will be over by that time.  All right.  At some time soon, Mr. Rush, I want to  have a discussion with counsel about the question that  was raised a few times earlier about the remedies  being sought in this action by the plaintiffs.  You  will remember that we had some discussion where I  expressed the view where being persuaded otherwise,  that the statement of claim is, to use the vernacular,  an all or nothing proposition, and I think that that  matter should be resolved at a fairly early stage.  You have twice indicated, I think, that that is your  position.  Yes.  But I think in each case it was left open as to  whether that was your final position, and I think at  some early date I would like to know if that is still  your position, and if not, I think we should have a  discussion about it.  Very well.  I'll leave it to counsel as to when it might be  useful to have such a discussion.  Thank you.  All right, thank you.  Ten o'clock tomorrow morning.  43 THE REGISTRAR:  Order in court.  Court stands adjourned until  44 10:00 a.m., January 5th, 1988.  45  4 6 (PROCEEDINGS ADJOURNED AT 4:05 p.m.)  47  1  1  2  3  4  5  MR.  GOLDIE  6  7  i  8  THE  COURT:  9  MR.  GOLDIE  10  MR.  RUSH:  11  12  13  THE  COURT:  14  MR.  RUSH:  15  16  THE  COURT:  17  1  18  19  MR.  GOLDIE  20  21  THE  COURT:  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  ]  30  31  32  MR.  RUSH:  33  THE  COURT:  34  35  36  37  1  38  MR.  RUSH:  39  THE  COURT:  40  41  MR.  RUSH:  42  THE  COURT: 2164  1  2  3  4 I hereby certify the foregoing to be  5 a true and accurate transcript of the  6 proceedings herein transcribed to the  7 best of my skill and ability.  8  9  10  11  12  13 Toni Kerekes,  14 O.R., R.P.R.  15 United Reporting Services Ltd.  16  17  18

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