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Delgamuukw Trial Transcripts

[Proceedings of the Supreme Court of British Columbia 1988-02-09] British Columbia. Supreme Court Feb 9, 1988

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 3251  1 February 9, 1988  2 Vancouver, B.C.  3  4 THE REGISTRAR:  Order in court.  Supreme Court of British  5 Columbia, Tuesday, February 9, 1988.  Delgamuukw  6 versus Her Majesty the Queen at bar.  7 I caution the witness and the interpreter, you're  8 still under oath, Mr. Holland and Mr. Mitchell.  9 ALFRED MITCHELL:  Resumed  10 THE COURT:  Welcome back.  Thank you.  11 MS. MANDELL:  Thank you.  Mr. Rush may be a few minutes late.  12 THE COURT:  Yes.  13 EXAMINATION IN CHIEF BY MS. MANDELL CONTINUED:  Mr. Mitchell, before we left, we were talking about  fishing at Moricetown, and I wanted to continue to ask  you a few more questions about that.  Is there any  special ceremony which you know of where the  Wet'suwet'en mark the occasion of the first salmon  coming into the territory?  Yes.  There is special ceremony.  Can you tell us what happens?  Whoever catches the first fish, would be Kweese or  Namox or other clan, they invite this other first  feast of that fish.  They call it Hagwil ts'um.  25 THE SPELLER:  Hagwil ts'um, H-a-g-w-i-1-t-s-apostrophe-u-m.  2 6 MS. MANDELL:  And does this ceremony continue today?  Yes.  Now, you mentioned earlier that -- earlier yesterday  that the places where you and your father would fish  as a boy, when you were a boy, were at the fishing  sites of Namox and Kweese.  Did those fishing sites  survive the blasting of the rocks in the Moricetown  Canyon?  No.  Did either of those sites survive in any way so as  they can be used today?  Namox fishing site, Ooyuk'een, it's completely  destroyed, and Kweese's fishing site, can still fish  in there, but it's lot of rocks in it and not as good  as like it used to be.  What did you notice to be the effects of the fishing  at Moricetown after the rocks were blasted there?  Yes.  Some of the fishing sites have been plugged up  and as a result, the fishing isn't so good in there  anymore and in comparison to the population, which has  multiplied somewhat --  14  Q  15  16  17  18  19  20  A  21  Q  22  A  23  24  27  Q  28  A  29  Q  30  31  32  33  34  35  A  36  Q  37  38  A  39  40  41  42  Q  43  44  A  45  46  47 3252  1 THE COURT:  I'm sorry.  Fish population or person population?  2 THE WITNESS:  The person population.  3 THE COURT:  Thank you.  4 THE WITNESS:  Has multiplied and then at the same time some of  5 the fishing sites have been destroyed, so now you have  6 people crowding in for what few sites there is left.  7 MS. MANDELL:  8 Q   Are there any fish or eels which used to come to  9 Moricetown but which then -- which now don't get as  10 far as Moricetown that you've noticed in your  11 lifetime?  12 A  When they first blast that canyon for fish ladder, I  13 noticed that when they first opened it in 1951, I went  14 fishing east side of the river for spring salmon.  15 Spring salmon, it's just laying there just like this  16 right in the mouth of that fish ladder.  They don't  17 know where to go.  They don't know that ladder.  When  18 they get in there, they don't know where to go because  19 all the roads are blasted right out.  It's just like  20 blasting the highway.  The car can't go through there.  21 Something like that with them.  22 Q   Since the blasting have you noticed whether the spring  23 salmon have been as plentiful in the Moricetown Canyon  24 as they had been before the blasting?  25 A   Oh, there's lots before the blasting.  26 THE COURT:  I'm sorry.  I'm sorry.  I couldn't hear what you  27 said.  28 THE WITNESS:  Oh, there's lots before the blasting and there was  29 lot of eels.  You see thousands of them.  Right now  30 you don't see nothing.  31 MS. MANDELL:  32 Q   When you say "we don't see nothing", are you referring  33 to the eels that --  34 A   Eels and hardly any spring salmon.  35 Q   Okay.  Do you still fish today at Moricetown Canyon?  36 A   No.  37 Q   Why not?  38 A   I watch them.  39 Q   Pardon?  40 A   I watch them.  41 Q   Why don't you fish today?  42 A   I figure I'm too old.  Trouble is you get old.  You  43 get one big salmon, maybe 60, 70 pounders.  They're  44 strong.  Because I fish them before.  They're for  45 younger generation.  46 Q   Do -- do others who are then younger than you get fish  47 for you today? 1  A  2  Q  3  A  4  5  6  7  Q  8  9  A  10  Q  11  A  12  13  Q  14  15  A  16  Q  17  18  A  19  Q  20  21  A  22  Q  23  24  A  25  26  Q  27  A  28  Q  29  A  30  31  Q  32  33  34  A  35  36  37  Q  38  39  A  40  Q  41  A  42  43  Q  44  45  A  46  Q  47  A  3253  Yes.  And who are some of the people who bring you fish?  Couple years ago Little Roy Morris gave me some fish.  He asked me if I wanted some fish.  Sure.  He give me  some fish just last summer.  Stan Nikol, he gave me  some fish.  That's what I put up for the winter.  Do any of your sons -- have any of them fished for  you?  Yes.  Which of your boys have fished for you?  My youngest -- not youngest son.  Vern Mitchell, John  Mitchell, they fish.  And can you estimate for how many years it's been now  that you haven't been fishing?  Approximately 10 years.  Is it common among the Wet'suwet'en people that the  younger people will fish for those that are older?  Yes.  Does your wife prepare the fish which you receive and  preserve it for the winter?  Yes.  And how are -- how does she do that?  What are the  methods that she uses?  First she jar them and usually for spring salmon.  You  do it for smoke salmon.  Sockeye, you jar them.  And does she salt any of the fish?  Yes.  Salt them.  What species of salmon is it that she salts?  Steelhead uses salt, lot of steelhead.  They're good  for salt.  Can you estimate during the summer months when the  salmon is in the canyon, how often would you and your  family eat fish?  Oh, end of July, around July when the fish run comes,  I eat them everyday. Our ancestors lived on it and I  like it.  And in the winter months how often would you estimate  that you eat fish today?  In the winter twice a week.  Okay.  Sometimes we eat dry salmon, canned salmon, salt  salmon.  Does your wife smoke salmon, did you say?  I don't  remember hearing you say that?  Yes.  And whose smokehouse does she use?  She using smokehouse late Allen Naziel built behind my 3254  1 mother-in-law's house.  2 Q   Now, can you advise us, for how many months do the  3 Wet'suwet'en traditionally stay in Moricetown to fish?  4 A   The fish run there last only month, little over a  5 month.  That's all they last.  6 Q   And this is the -- which month is this?  7 A   That will be in July, August.  8 Q   All right.  And today do the Wet'suwet'en still  9 congregate at Moricetown and fish during that month?  10 A   Yes.  11 Q   Now, after the fishing season, where would the -- or  12 where do the Wet'suwet'en then go to harvest?  What --  13 perhaps I should start this way:  What then do the  14 Wet'suwet'en harvest after the fish have finished?  15 A  After the fish is finished, the hunter get together.  16 They invite us out hunting goats up in the mountains.  17 Q   Okay.  18 A  And caribou in the olden days, but right now there's  19 no caribou.  2 0 Q   And when the men then go out hunting for goats and --  21 do they also go for groundhogs at this time?  22 A   Yes.  Groundhogs too.  23 Q   When the hunters go hunting for goats and groundhogs,  2 4 what do the women do?  25 A   Same thing with men, like men.  They all get together  26 and they go to certain berry patch.  27 Q   And does -- does this activity still carry on today  28 where in the fall the women go to pick berries and the  29 men go to hunt goats or groundhogs?  30 A   Yes.  31 Q   As a boy did you go with anyone to pick berries?  32 A   Oh, yes.  33 Q   And can you identify some of the places within the  34 Wet'suwet'en territory that you can remember where you  35 went to pick berries?  36 A  When I was a boy, a teenager, we used to go behind  37 Hudson Bay Mountain, call it Duthie Mine Road.  38 THE COURT:  I'm sorry.  I didn't hear what you said after Hudson  39 Bay Mountain.  40 THE WITNESS:  We went up the road, Duthie Mine Road.  41 MS. MANDELL:  42 Q   Duthie Mine Road.  43 A   Duthie Mine.  44 THE COURT:  It's D-u-t-y?  I don't think we've heard that  45 before.  46 THE TRANSLATOR:  D-u-t-h-i-e.  47 MS. MANDELL:  D-u-t-h-i-e.  It's often pronounced Duthie Lake 3255  1 Road.  2 THE COURT:  It's not Doughty, D-o-u-g-h-t-y?  3 THE WITNESS:  That's the name of that mine up there.  4 MS. MANDELL:  It's Duthie, pronounced Duthie or Duthie.  5 THE COURT:  D-u-t-h-i-e?  6 MS. MANDELL:  Yes.  7 THE COURT:  And is it behind Hudson Bay Mountain by way of the  8 Duthie Mine Road, or are they two different places?  9 THE WITNESS:  Duthie Mine is situated just behind Hudson Bay  10 Mountain.  11 THE COURT:  Thank you.  12 MS. MANDELL:  13 Q   Are there any other locations that you can recall  14 where you travelled to to pick berries?  15 A  We go to -- nine mile.  That's -- that's east of New  16 Hazelton.  17 THE COURT:  East of New Hazelton?  18 THE WITNESS:  Yeah.  New Hazelton.  19 THE COURT:  Is the Duthie Mine Road the one that goes up towards  20 the ski lift on Hudson Bay Mountain towards MacDonald  21 Lake?  22 THE WITNESS:  Yeah.  23 THE COURT:  That's the Duthie Mine?  24 THE WITNESS:  That's that road.  25 THE COURT:  Yes.  All right.  Thank you.  26 THE WITNESS:  Along the road, high road, Telkwa High Road, I  27 remember we used go in there to pick blueberries, low  28 bush, blueberries, call it Yin ta mii'.  2 9 MS. MANDELL  30 THE SPELLER  31 THE WITNESS  32 ghah.  33 THE SPELLER:  467  34 MS. MANDELL:  467.  Just get a number for that name.  468.  I don't pick that.  We also pick Saskatoon, L  35  Q  36  A  37  38  Q  39  A  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  Q  47  A  And another berry we pick in the fall, we pick Mii'o.  That's cranberries, wild cranberries.  Do you recall where you went to pick those berries?  Where?  Just northwest of Moricetown there's a big  meadow.  That's where they pick cranberries.  Lot of  women go in there in the fall time.  They used to give  us hell for talking too much.  They say, the Mii'o,  when you make too much noise, it goes -- you can't see  them there, hide from us.  When we was kids they tell  us "Shh".  That's one way to keep the kids quiet, eh?  Yeah. 1  Q  2  3  A  4  5  6  Q  7  8  9  A  10  Q  11  12  A  13  Q  14  15  16  17  18  19  A  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  Q  28  29  30  A  31  32  33  Q  34  35  36  A  37  Q  38  39  40  A  41  42  Q  43  44  A  45  Q  46  47  A  3256  Did you see how when you were a child the berries were  preserved for the winter?  When I was still a teenager, last time I seen it done  was Pat Namox's grandmother -- Pat's mother.  I seen  them dried in my younger days.  What -- what method is now today used once the berries  are caught -- sorry -- once the berries are picked to  preserve them?  In a jar.  And do you recall when the jars became more widely  used?  Late thirties or early forties.  Was the season when the berries were picked, did --  would you say that the berry picking was common to the  Wet'suwet'en women; that they would -- they would  mostly all go and do it at that time?  When berry  picking was taking place in the fall, did the majority  or all of the Wet'suwet'en women participate in that?  Yes.  When -- when certain party would be -- or women  would start getting ready to go berry picking, then  other ladies would be notified and they, in turn,  would all gather and would take a wagon or something,  some means of transportation to get to the berry  patch.  Even today they still do that.  They use  automobiles.  They get together and they go out berry  picking.  Have you or your wife ever traded berries from the  Wet'suwet'en territory with other Indian nations from  the coast?  When -- my wife pick some soap berries one spring and  we went down to Kitimat. We traded soap berries with  oolichan grease, fish eggs, seaweed.  Is it common among the Wet'suwet'en to trade with the  people in Kitimat for oolichan grease and other sea  products?  Yes.  I wonder now if the witness can be shown Tab 10.  Can  you identify, first of all, who the people are who are  in this photograph?  This woman sitting here is Lucy William and a man  sitting by, that's late Sylvester William.  And is Lucy William presently the head chief?  Is she  Namox today?  Yes.  And can you see where it is that they're sitting?  Can  you identify the place?  There's a red house next to the one they were living 3257  1 in and this is the older home.  2 Q   And is that house in Moricetown?  3 A   Yes.  4 Q   Judging by how old the late Sylvester Williams and  5 Lucy Williams are in the picture and the house, can  6 you give us an estimate as to how long ago would this  7 photograph have been taken?  8 A   Judging by their appearance, could be four or five  9 years ago.  10 Q   And can you describe for us what it is that they're  11 doing in the picture?  12 A   Right here you can see they're looking at their hands.  13 They're blowing the leaves out, cleaning that  14 huckleberries.  They do that with all the berries.  15 They pick blueberries.  16 MS. MANDELL:  I'd ask that that picture be marked as the next  17 exhibit.  18 THE REGISTRAR:  Exhibit 210, Tab 10.  19  20 (EXHIBIT 210:  Tab 10, photograph)  21  22 MS. MANDELL:  Before we proceed with the part of the evidence  23 where I'm going to ask you to describe the goats and  24 the deer and the moose and the other hunting which the  25 men in the fall do, I'd like to introduce another  26 sketch map and identify the territories in it.  27 Perhaps I can ask that this be handed up now to the  28 Court, and here's a copy as well to be marked as an  29 exhibit.  3 0 THE COURT:  Thank you.  31 MS. MANDELL:  And I'm going to also ask that the — the  32 territorial affidavit, which has been marked as  33 Exhibit 185, will be be put to the witness.  34 THE COURT:  Miss Mandell, before you leave the Goosely Lake  35 Territory --  36 MS. MANDELL:  We haven't —  37 THE COURT:  I'm not sure if I missed -- I don't know if I missed  38 this or not, but the territorial affidavit we've been  39 looking at starts out at the top of page 2 with a  40 heading "Neel dzii Teezdlii ben Territory".  My  41 pronounciation is hopeless.  And it says Goosely Lake  42 and I've been taking that to be the territory of  4 3 Namox.  44 MS. MANDELL:  That's correct.  45 THE COURT:  Now, is Namox the name of the chief?  4 6 MS. MANDELL:  Namox is the name of the chief.  47 THE COURT:  And what is this two or three-word title?  I don't 3258  1 think that's been explained.  If it has, I missed it.  2 MS. MANDELL:  I think this is by way of identification how that  3 territory is known among the Wet'suwet'en, and that's  4 the reason it's entitled that way, but the territory  5 which is being described from paragraphs 3 to the end  6 of -- where do we start?  7 THE COURT:  Well, it starts on page 5.  8 MS. MANDELL:  Here we go, 3 to 6, the middle of page 6.  9 THE COURT:  I'm sorry.  No.  Surely the —  10 MS. MANDELL:  I'm sorry.  3 to the end of 4, paragraph 3 then to  11 paragraph 9.  12 THE COURT:  Yes.  13 MS. MANDELL:  That pertains to the Namox territory as a whole,  14 which has been described more fully in Exhibit 184,  15 which is the sketch map that you have.  16 THE COURT:  Yes.  I'm only concerned about the title and to try  17 and tie down what in my mind are loose ends.  Is that  18 the name of the territory of which Namox is chief or  19 is that the name of a house of which Namox is chief,  20 or is that a geographic description?  21 MS. MANDELL:  It's actually — it's a description which is  22 commonly used to describe the Namox territory among  23 the Wet'suwet'en.  24 THE COURT:  It's a geographical description?  25 MS. MANDELL:  It is, and, my lord, you could as easily  26 substitute the title with Namox's territory and you'd  27 be accurate there.  2 8 THE COURT:  All right.  Thank you.  29 MS. MANDELL:  I might advise my lord that we haven't really  30 finished the Namox territory.  This is just --  31 THE COURT:  Yes.  All right.  32 MS. MANDELL:  This is just the boundaries.  33 THE COURT:  All right.  34 MS. MANDELL:  Some activity inside that you will hear evidence  35 of.  36 THE COURT:  We're now —  37 MS. MANDELL:  We're now going to talk about the Caspit and Woos  38 territory and, my lord, I might orient you somewhat.  39 The territory which we heard evidence about from  40 Madeline and Henry Alfred, the Wah Tah K'eght  41 territory is a neighbour of Woos and Caspit.  42 THE COURT:  I see K'aaz Kwe.  That's the southern boundary of  43 the Woos territory.  44 MS. MANDELL:  That's right.  So these territories are north to  45 the Wah Tah K'eght territory and are neighbouring, and  46 you'll see that on the Woos territory there's an  47 external boundary which is part of that territory. 3259  1 THE COURT:  Yes.  2 MS. MANDELL:  3 Q   All right.  Mr. Mitchell, have you seen this sketch  4 map before?  5 A   Yes.  6 Q   Did you go around the boundary line of the Woos and  7 Caspit territories while Richard Overstall drew those  8 boundary lines on the sketch map?  9 A   Yes.  10 Q   And did you approve of the lines as Richard Overstall  11 drew them on the map as representing the boundaries of  12 the Woos and Caspit territories?  13 A   Yes.  14 Q   To your knowledge, is this a reasonably accurate  15 sketch of the boundaries of the Woos and Caspit  16 territories?  17 A   Yes.  18 Q   Did you tell Richard Overstall where to place the  19 Wet'suwet'en names of the creeks and mountains and  20 ridges which are on the boundaries of the Woos and  21 Caspit territories?  22 A   Yes.  23 Q   And do the Wet'suwet'en place names now placed on the  24 map represent to the best of your ability where the  25 places are to be found along the Woos and Caspit  26 boundaries?  27 A   Yes.  28 MS. MANDELL:  I'd ask that that map be introduced as the next  29 exhibit.  30 THE REGISTRAR:  Exhibit 211.  31 THE COURT:  Sorry.  The number is?  32 THE REGISTRAR:  211.  33 (EXHIBIT 211:  Map)  34 MS. MANDELL:  35 Q   Now, if I could ask you to turn to the affidavit.  And  36 I'd like to direct your attention to paragraph 10,  37 dealing first with the Woos territory.  We -- you've  38 said here that you've obtained permission from Woos,  39 who's Roy Morris, the plaintiff in this action, to  40 describe and speak in respect of the --  41 A   Xeel Tats'eliiyh Kwe.  42 Q   -- Xeel Tats'eliiyh Kwe territory claimed by the House  43 of Woos.  This territory is located east of Causqua  44 Creek, 14 miles east of the Village of K'ayah Wig'et,  45 Moricetown; is that correct?  46 A   Yes.  47 Q   And you say at paragraph 11 that you were instructed 1  2  3  4  5  6  A  7  Q  8  9  A  10  Q  11  12  A  13  14  15  Q  16  17  18  19  A  20  Q  21  A  22  Q  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  A  30  Q  31  32  33  A  34  35  36  Q  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  A  44  Q  45  A  46  Q  47  3260  about this territory and its boundaries by the former  'Ah K'odo maas, Dick Naziel, a member of the House of  Woos, Gitdumden clan, who is now deceased.  The late  Dick Naziel pointed out the boundary points and major  landmarks to me when we travelled into the --  Xeel Tats'eliiyh Kwe.  -- Xeel Tats'eliiyh Kwe territory.  He told me this  territory belongs to Woos.  Is that correct?  Yes.  I might ask you at this time how it was that Dick  Naziel instructed you as to the boundaries?  My first trip into the territory was going for goat  hunting and after went up as far as that Ts'edi sdee.  He told me that boundary was just past that.  Okay.  This Ts'edi sdee is the place on the trail  which you identified yesterday as where the bird is  turned around on the Wah Tah K'eght trail; is that  correct?  Yes.  Are you related to Dick Naziel?  The late Dick Naziel is my father-in-law.  Now, you describe in paragraph 12 the boundary, and  you start at Soon Dzel, which is -- and that's a  mountain, and you say that the boundary runs in a  southwesterly direction along the height of land north  of Upper Harold Price Creek to the height of land west  of that creek passing through a mountain known as Nee  biil Dilyee?  Nee biil Dilyee.  And could you describe between Soon Dzel and Nee biil  Dilyee?  What is the physical feature which is the  mountain -- I'm sorry -- which is the boundary mark?  Okay.  Nee biil Dilyee is a mountain, and there's a  -- it goes right down to Soon Dzel, the height of land  all the way.  And then you say that the boundary runs in a  southeasterly and easterly direction along the height  of land south of the Upper Harold Price Creek to the  height of land west of the Fulton River.  Here the  boundary runs in a northerly direction along this  mountain range west of the Fulton River and crosses --  perhaps I can get some assistance.  Xeel Tats'eliiyh Kwe.  Xeel Tats'eliiyh Kwe.  Going this way.  Okay.  And can you identify where Xeel Tats'eliiyh Kwe  is? 1  A  2  Q  3  A  4  Q  5  6  7  A  8  9  Q  0  A  1  Q  2  3  A  4  Q  5  6  A  7  8   THE  COURT  9  3261  Xeel Tats'eliiyh Kwe is right here.  Is that a lake?  That's a little lake right in here.  Okay.  I'm going to mark that with the letter -- get a  colour marker -- with a red letter "A".  Is it this  lake here or this one?  Right in that -- you turned it around on me.  Okay.  Right there.  Okay.  That's where Xeel Tats'eliiyh Kwe Lake is.  And then you say that the boundary continues north  back to the starting point at Soon Dzel?  Soon Dzel.  What is the physical feature then which is the  boundary of this little Woos territory?  Okay.  Here's -- east side of that little lake is a  mountain that we call Bec'et k'esdiliih.  :  That little lake isn't on the boundary, is it, as  shown on this sketch?  20 THE WITNESS:  It's right on that plateau, Bec'et k'esdiliih.  21 That's east side.  22 MS. MANDELL:  No.  It's not on the boundary.  23 THE COURT:  All right.  Thank you.  24 MS. MANDELL:  And the plateau that is just being described is  25 spelled under plateau in page 6 of the affidavit.  26 It's also marked on the map.  2 7 THE COURT:  Yes.  28 THE WITNESS:  From Bec'et k'esdiliih there's a mountain, goes  29 right down -- pretty near down to the Xeel Tats'eliiyh  30 Kwe Creek, runs down.  31 MS. MANDELL:  32 Q   Is there any point along the boundary of Woos'  33 territory where you have gone where you can see the  34 whole of the territory from that point?  35 A   You can get up on this Nee biil dilyee.  From there  36 you can see the whole valley.  This whole works you  37 can see.  There's just a small area.  38 Q   My lord, that's marked on the map, Nee biil dilyee.  39 And are there any places within the -- within Woos'  40 territory where you have camped or where there is a  41 campsite?  42 A   I camp just below that, this, below the lake, and  43 about couple miles down the creek we camp where we  44 find some beaver.  45 Q   And that creek that you're referring to, is that the  4 6 creek which is marked on the government map as  47 Harold — 3262  1 A   Harold Price Creek.  2 Q   The Upper Harold Price Creek.  Is that the creek that  3 you're referring to?  4 A   That's the creek.  5 Q   Okay.  Now, at the place where there is -- where Woos'  6 boundary meets Wah Tah K'eght's territory, do the  7 creeks change direction at that spot?  8 A   See that -- where is north there?  South -- southwest  9 of this is a meadow that goes right through on the  10 valley here.  Right here, that's where the water runs  11 this way and that one runs this way.  That's the  12 height of the ground.  13 MS. MANDELL:  All right.  My lord, I'm going to mark the  14 boundary line which has been identified by the witness  15 as the place where the creeks change direction --  16 THE COURT:  Yes.  17 MS. MANDELL:  — with a red line along that portion of the  18 boundary.  19 THE COURT:  I'm sorry.  20 MS. MANDELL:  The creeks change their direction at that spot.  21 THE COURT:  Thank you.  22 THE COURT:  How did you mark that?  23 MS. MANDELL:  I just coloured a red line underneath the boundary  24 line at that location.  25 THE COURT:  And is that on your map?  Is that just below the W  26 of Woos?  27 MS. MANDELL:  It's a little bit further to the south of that.  28 It's -- if you follow the number 10 from the scale  29 from 0 to 10 up to that corner, that it -- it would  30 intercept with -- if you went due northeast, it's that  31 bar there to the place of the first curve.  32 THE COURT:  All right.  33 MS. MANDELL:  My lord, my — it's the dotted dash line, not the  34 straight dot line.  35 THE COURT:  Yes.  36 MS. MANDELL:  37 Q   Is there also in Woos' territory an extension of the  38 trail which you had earlier identified that you had  39 taken from the Wah Tah K'eght territory?  40 A   I'll say past this little lake, that trail goes right  41 up to the mountain of Bec'et k'esdiliih and is that  42 trail marked with a dash line throughout the Wah Tah  43 K'eght territory beginning at the boundary at  44 approximately Nee biil dilyee.  45 Q   Do you know who -- who extended or built the trail  46 from the Wah Tah K'eght territory into the Woos  47 territory? 1  A  2  3  4  Q  5  A  6  Q  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  A  17  Q  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  A  26  Q  27  28  A  29  30  31  32  33  34  Q  35  36  37  A  38  39  Q  40  41  42  A  43  Q  44  45  46  A  47  3263  That trail is -- goes up to Bec'et k'esdiliih.  It had  been there for a long time, even way before Dick  Naziel's time.  And who told you that?  Dick.  Okay.  If I could now ask you to turn in your  affidavit to page 6.  Excuse me for one minute.  At  paragraph 17 of your affidavit on page 6 you  identified that you obtained permission from Goohlaht,  which is Lucy Namox, a plaintiff in this action, to  describe and speak in respect of the X'aaz kwe  territory claimed by the House of Goohlaht.  This  territory is located on Blunt Creek, 12 miles  northeast of the Village of K'ayah Wig'et, Moricetown;  is that correct?  Yes.  You say you were instructed about the X'aaz Kwe  territory and its boundary by the late Sylvester  Williams, the former Hagwilnegh, Sylvester Williams, a  member of the House of Hagwilnegh, Laksilyu clan, who  is now deceased.  Hagwilnegh pointed out the boundary  points and major landmarks to me when we travelled  within the X'aaz Kwe territory.  He told me this  territory belongs to Goohlaht.  Is that correct?  Yes.  Now, could you explain by what right Sylvester  Williams had to this territory?  Sylvester Williams' grandfather, Caspit, his  grandfather raised him.  That's how come Sylvester  Williams got this registered in government way.  In  traditional way it shouldn't be like that, but,  anyway, the government registered this territory to  Sylvester Williams.  And did Sylvester Williams, to your knowledge, in his  lifetime return the territory to the traditional  owner?  I remember in the potlatch hall he returned it to  Caspit, present Caspit.  Now is Stanley Morris.  All right.  And do you recall when that feast took  place when Sylvester Williams returned the territory  to Caspit, the present owner?  I couldn't make the exact year.  In the seventies.  And before that time, to your knowledge had Sylvester  Williams been on that territory throughout, then, his  life?  Before he return that territory back to Caspit, he  went out with me about four times.  At that time there 3264  1 wasn't any road through there.  We used to -- used to  2 start right from the Bulkley River.  Yeah.  It's this  3 way.  Used to start right from Bulkley River, go up  4 this -- there's little lakes here.  5 THE COURT:  I couldn't hear what you said before little lakes.  6 MS. MANDELL:  7 Q   The judge didn't hear what you were saying.  8 A   Oh.  At that time there's a horse access road goes  9 through -- along the Bulkley River, eh, along the  10 south boundary, went up there.  There's a note says  11 "little lake", two of them there.  That's where the  12 X'aaz Kwe starts going -- going east.  That's where we  13 used to go down to this creek, X'aaz Kwe, for beaver  14 trapping.  15 MS. MANDELL:  Okay.  I'd like to turn your attention to  16 paragraph 19 of the affidavit.  17 THE COURT:  Excuse me.  On this map is X'aaz Kwe, X-a-a-z.  Is  18 that Blunt Creek?  19 THE WITNESS:  No.  X'aaz Kwe.  Blunt Creek is this one here.  We  20 call this one X'aaz Kwe.  It is X'aaz.  This is Blunt  21 Creek here and this is X'aaz Kwe.  22 MS. MANDELL:  Excuse me, my lord.  23 THE COURT:  Oh, I see.  Blunt is marked on this map.  24 MS. MANDELL:  Yes, it is.  25 THE COURT:  I hesitate to disagree with the witness on a matter  26 of local geography.  The map shows otherwise.  27 MS. MANDELL:  28 Q   This has been an undying source of problem for us, is  29 exactly which -- you see, I think the real problem is  30 that K'aaz Kwe and X'aaz Kwe sound quite a lot alike  31 and we've been trying to identify which one of the two  32 the Blunt Creek is meant to describe from the  33 different --  34 A   I don't know why they call this Kwun Kwe, and this one  35 here is called Blunt Creek, K'aaz Kwe.  Kwun Creek is  36 this one.  37 Q   Is that Blunt Creek?  38 A   Kwun Creek, yeah.  Kwun Creek.  39 MS. MANDELL:  My lord, the witness' evidence — or the witness'  40 answer to your question is that his belief is that  41 K'aaz Kwe is Blunt Creek, although the map seems to  42 identify X'aaz Kwe as Blunt Creek.  4 3 THE COURT:  Yes.  44 THE WITNESS:  This one here, Blunt Creek.  X'aaz Kwe, that's the  45 one, this one running north, northeast.  That I don't  4 6 know the name in white man's.  All I know is this  47 creek here, Kwun Creek.  That's where this road goes. 3265  1 MS. MANDELL:  2 Q   Okay.  3 A   Just by that Kwun Creek, forestry access road, and  4 this one near K'aaz Kwe, this territory.  5 MS. MANDELL:  The witness has said that he doesn't know the  6 white man's word for K'aaz Kwe, although he's familiar  7 with Kwun Creek, which is on the right of the  8 territory.  9 THE COURT:  Well, Exhibit 84 calls that northerly water course  10 H-g-a-z-k-w-u-h, and I was told during the evidence of  11 Henry Alfred that that was Blunt Creek and it's as  12 equivalent as X-a-a-z-k-w-e, so it's really a question  13 of which one is Blunt Creek, and the witness is  14 entitled to use -- put that name to either of those  15 creeks.  16 MS. MANDELL:  I think the real problem is that the witness knows  17 the names in Wet'suwet'en and not in English and it's  18 for us to extrapolate at this point.  19 THE COURT:  All right.  Well, I don't — I'm not sure it matters  20 all that much.  It's convenient for me to keep Blunt  21 Creek as the one to the north, because that's the way  22 all my notes at this point have been organized, but  23 there's no reason why everyone has to agree to  24 everything.  That's why we have lawsuits.  25 MS. MANDELL:  26 Q   Okay.  My lord, we're going to then turn to the  27 affidavit, paragraph 19.  28 And you say that in your affidavit that you're  29 going to begin the description of the territorial  30 boundary starting at the confluence of Sus Kwe and  31 X'aaz Kwe.  Can you identify where the starting point  32 is?  Is that -- were you going to start the --  33 A   Beaver trapping I go as far as here, and Sylvester  34 told me that this creek, wherever, runs into this --  35 where it meets Sus Kwe, that is their boundary and --  36 Q   And then the boundary runs in a southeasterly  37 direction along the west bank of Sus Kwe for  38 approximately 3.5 miles.  Then the boundary runs in a  39 generally westerly direction along the height of land  40 north of —  41 A   Xeel Tats'eliiyh Kwe.  42 Q   Xeel Tats'eliiyh Kwe, the headwater part of Upper  43 Price Creek to Soon Dzel?  44 A   Soon Dzel.  45 Q   And Soon Dzel is indicated on the map between the  46 confluence of Sus Kwe and X'aaz Kwe and Soon Dzel.  Do  47 you know what is that physical landmark which is the 3266  1 boundary at that juncture?  2 A   I live in this Sus Kwe, Harold Price Creek, height of  3 land that goes into a creek and goes up to Soon Dzel.  4 MS. MANDELL:  And then you say —  5 THE COURT:  Miss Mandell, can I stop you, please, and ask you if  6 you could have the witness identify in the sketch  7 where he started the metes and bounds of description  8 at Moan Creek as shown on the sketch?  9 MS. MANDELL:  10 Q   That's correct.  And then you say that the boundary  11 runs in a westerly, then southwesterly direction to  12 the height of land east of K'aaz Kwe, known as Nee  13 biil Dilyee.  And between those two points, Soon Dzel  14 and Nee biil Dilyee, what is the physical landmark  15 which marks the boundary?  16 A   Okay.  Nee biil Dilyee is a mountain.  It'll go right  17 down to Soon Dzel, that little valley here.  Then it's  18 right up to a mountain there, Soon Dzel.  19 Q   And then you say that the boundary runs in a generally  20 westerly direction along the northern bank of K'aaz  21 Kwe to the Bulkley River, and then it runs in a  22 northerly direction along the centre line of the  23 Bulkley River to Kwun Creek?  24 A   Yes.  25 Q   Then the boundary runs in an easterly then  26 northwesterly direction along the southern bank of  27 Kwun Creek to Mt. Seaton?  28 A   It goes up to Hat eet nen.  29 Q   And is Hat eet nen --  30 A   Hat eet nen.  31 Q   Hat eet nen, is that Mt. Seaton?  32 A   Yes.  33 Q   And from here the boundary runs in a northeasterly  34 direction to the height of land at the end of X'aaz  35 Kwe.  From here the boundary runs in a southeasterly  36 direction along the height of land north of X'aaz Kwe  37 to a mountain known as Tsin Teel?  38 A   Tsin Teel.  39 Q   Tsin Teel.  And between Mt. Seaton and Tsin Teel, is  40 the boundary all a height of land?  41 A   Between Hat eet nen there's a mountain all the way,  42 all the height of land up to this Tsin Teel.  How they  43 get on that Tsin Teel is Tsin Teel extends out to  44 here, comes right to here, and then it jumps down into  45 -- towards Lots' wenii.  46 Q   And then from here the boundary runs in a northerly  47 then southeasterly along the height of land west of -- 1  A  2  Q  3  A  4  5  6  Q  7  A  8  Q  9  A  10  11  Q  12  13  A  14  15  Q  16  17  18  19  20  A  21  22  Q  23  24  A  25 THE (  COU]  2 6 MS. ]  VAN]  27  Q  28  A  29  Q  30  A  31  Q  32  33  34  A  35  36  37  38  Q  39  40  A  41  Q  42  43  A  44  Q  45  46  A  47  3267  Lots' wenii.  And north of Lots' wenii Ts'anlii.  There's a ridge all the way up here and then goes  right to -- drops there.  That's when it goes down  into the --  Back to the starting point?  Yes.  Sus Kwe.  And where is Lots' wenii Ts'anlii?  Lots' wenii Ts'anlii.  That's this one here.  It's a  creek, name of that creek.  Okay.  I'm going to mark that creek with a red line.  Could you --  That's this one here, from this lake down.  That's  Lots' wenii Ts'anlii.  Okay.  Now, I'd ask you to keep the map in front of  you.  Now, at the boundary of Soon Dzel, which you've  identified, is there a place around that spot where  you've camped?  Just below that Soon Dzel, just below this 1050 right  there.  My lord, it's just below the number, which is 1050,  and I'm going to mark that with a B.  We camp there, beaver.  :  A B?  LL:  A B.  Is it above it or below it?  It's this side towards --  Towards Soon Dzel?  It's right there.  Okay.  Now, you've mentioned the boundary of Nee biil  dilyee.  Have you walked in that area and do you know  that boundary from both sides of the boundary?  I walk up the trail I mentioned yesterday.  You go  through Leedlus Nii Ge'naa, come up to Ts'edi sdee.  From there, about 20 minutes walk, you get up in this  Nee biil Dilyee.  There's a plateau there.  Okay.  So is the answer that you do know the boundary  from both sides?  Yes.  And you've identified the area around K'aaz Kwe,  around the Bulkley.  Do you know that area very well?  Yes.  And what -- what animals have you harvested in that  area?  Lower part where these roads are, I harvested moose  and deer, bear. 3268  1 Q   I'll just indicate that with -- on the map I'll mark  2 "moose", "deer" and "bear".  And the area around Mt.  3 Seaton, do you know that area?  4 A   Yes.  5 Q   And have you harvested any animals in that area?  6 A   Goats.  I harvested goats in that area.  7 Q   All right.  And I'm going to indicate that area with a  8 red "goat" lettering.  9 A   In our land it's called La yil.  10 MS. MANDELL:  We need a spelling for that.  11 THE SPELLER:  L-underline-a —  12 THE COURT:  I'm sorry?  13 THE SPELLER:  L-underline-a-y-i-1.  14 MS. MANDELL:  15 Q   And, finally, the area around Soon Dzel --  16 A   Soon Dzel.  17 Q   -- Soon Dzel, have you harvested in that area?  18 A   No.  19 Q   Okay.  The —  20 A   There's another peak here.  We shot goats up in that  21 area.  22 Q   All right.  23 A   That's -- I don't know the name of that.  It's same  24 range as this, as this.  25 Q   The witness has indicated the northern peak, which is  26 found between Soon Dzel and --  27 A   Soon Dzel.  28 Q   -- Soon Dzel and Mt. Seaton is another peak where he  29 harvested goats, and I'm going to indicate that by  30 writing the word "goat" across the peak which he's  31 identified.  Now, the area around -- is it Lots'  32 wenii?  33 A   Lots' wenii.  34 Q   The lake which is identified at the northern boundary  35 point, have you harvested around that area?  36 A   I trapped beaver in that area all the way down the  37 creek.  38 Q   And is there also a lake in the area where there is  39 good white fish?  40 A   That's Lots' wenii.  That's that lake up here.  41 Q   Have you ever camped in that area?  42 A   Yes.  We camped right at the lake.  43 MS. MANDELL:  I'm going to indicate the place where the witness  44 has indicated where he's camped with a red letter "C".  45 MS. MANDELL:  My lord, I'm about to move into a —  4 6 THE COURT:  Shall we take the morning adjournment then?  All  47 right.  Thank you. 3269  1 THE REGISTRAR:  Order in court.  Court is adjourned.  2  3 (PROCEEDINGS ADJOURNED)  4  5 I hereby certify the foregoing to be  6 a true and accurate transcript of the  7 proceedings transcribed to the best  8 of my skill and ability.  9  10  11  12 Kathie Tanaka, Official Reporter  13 UNITED REPORTING SERVICE LTD.  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47 3270  1 (PROCEEDINGS RECOMMENCED AFTER A BRIEF RECESS)  2  3 THE REGISTRAR:  Order in court.  Delgamuukw versus her Majesty  4 at bar, My Lord.  Ready to proceed.  5 THE COURT:  Miss Mandell.  6 MS. MANDELL:  Thank you.  7 Q   Okay.  I want to take you back into this season  8 around, now that we've introduced these other  9 territories.  You had identified that in the fall time  10 the women would harvest berries and men would go  11 hunting for groundhogs and goats.  Have you yourself  12 gone hunting for groundhogs and goats in the fall  13 during your lifetime?  14 A   Yes.  15 Q   Would it be your best estimation that you would go  16 every year or almost every year to do that?  17 A   I go hunt goats every year up to what, four years ago.  18 I am getting too old for that.  19 Q   All right.  And how is the goat meat which you've been  20 able to catch over the years prepared?  21 A  When you shoot a goat, you have to pick out the good  22 ones.  Them -- they don't just shoot anyone.  Medium  23 size.  To prepare it for La yil taal they call it.  24 That's preparing it to dry.  La yil taal.  After you  25 skin it, you have to cut the bones, cut right along  26 the bones.  Just skin it again from the bone eh, and  27 make it about that thin.  If it's too thick, you have  28 to spread it out again.  If you cut it too thick, it  29 won't dry as good.  It has to be so thick before it's  30 any good drying it.  The same thing goes with moose,  31 deer.  32 Q   There is a Wet'suwet'en word in that answer.  33 THE TRANSLATOR: L, underline, a y-i-1 t-a-a-1.  34 MS. MANDELL:  Could the witness be shown Exhibit 1664, please.  35 Q   This is a map which I think you have seen before now  36 of Wah Tah K'eght's territory as identified by Henry  37 Alfred.  Have you been to Wah Tah K'eght's territory  38 to hunt goat in the fall?  39 A   Yes.  40 Q   Could you indicate where on the territory it is that  41 you have been to hunt goat?  42 A   Between the Corya Creek and John Brown Creek.  We hunt  43 goats up there a lot of times.  There is two peaks  44 between Corya Creek and John Brown Creek.  One of that  45 peak by John Brown is called Tsee ts'e wuus toogh  46 k'et.  47 MS. MANDELL:  My Lord, that's not yet put on the map. 3271  1 THE TRANSLATOR:  583.  2 THE COURT:  583?  3 THE TRANSLATOR:  Yes.  4 MS. MANDELL:  5 Q   Could you point again with your finger as to where  6 that peak is located.  The peak, Tsee ts'ewuus toogh  7 k'et.  8 A   Tsee ts'ewuus toogh would be located here.  9 Q   All right.  I'm going to draw a bar across the  10 approximate location that the witness has indicated,  11 and I'll put the number 583 above it.  12 THE COURT:  Thank you.  13 MS. MANDELL:  14 Q   Can you tell us who -- I'm sorry.  Can you tell us who  15 you've gone to Tsee ts'ewuus toogh k'et to hunt goats  16 with?  17 A   Late Sylvester William, late George Naziel.  Two  18 different parties I went in there with.  19 Q   And who did you go in with the second party?  20 A   Second party was past this Tsee ts'ewuus toogh k'et.  21 Me, Sylvester William, George Naziel, Dan Michell, we  22 went behind this Tsee ts'ewuus toogh k'et up to Caas  23 weniige'tet tay.  That was for groundhog.  Called  24 Det'nii.  25 THE TRANSLATOR:  405.  26 THE COURT:  That was 405?  27 MS. MANDELL:  Yes.  When you were hunting goats in the location that I  have marked at 583, have you been there only on one  occasion or on more than one occasion?  More than one occasion.  And can you tell us approximately when it is that you  were in that area to hunt goats?  Month of the year?  No, what year approximately or years.  I started going out in mountains in the forties.  I  don't go the mountain every year.  There is always  somebody invite me.  Me and Sylvester go hunt goats  every year when -- in our younger days.  Can you estimate when was the last time that you were  at the location marked 583?  At that time it must have been what -- 15 years ago.  Okay.  And you mentioned the second party where you  ended up at the -- at Caas weniige'tet tay.  Can you  recall approximately when it is that you were over to  that part of the territory?  In the seventies.  That was my last time up in that  28  Q  29  30  31  A  32  Q  33  34  A  35  Q  36  A  37  38  39  40  Q  41  42  A  43  Q  44  45  46  47  A 1  2  Q  3  4  A  5  6  7  8  9  Q  10  11  12  A  13  14  15  Q  16  A  17  Q  18  19  20  21  A  22  23  24  25  26  Q  27  28  A  29  Q  30  31  A  32  Q  33  34  A  35  36  37  38  39  Q  40  A  41  Q  42  43  A  44  Q  45  46  47  A  3272  Caas weniige'tet tay, my last trip up there.  Are there any other places where you hunt goats on Wah  Tah K'eght's territory that you can identify?  There is another place up here right behind  Moricetown.  It's called C'el K'iignts'etl.  There is  three different peaks behind that.  That's where we  hunt goat, right where this goat mark is.  C'el  K'iignts'etl territory.  This is indicating the blue circle marked goats at the  northern part of the territory.  Who have you hunted  goats with in that area?  Sylvester William, late Tommy Michell, Dan Michell,  Amos Naziel and his brother Jimmy Naziel.  Two  different times -- the names I just mentioned.  And did you ever go in with Henry Alfred?  Not in that area.  That's right.  Sorry.  You mentioned that you were in  there on two different occasions.  Were you there at  any other time besides those two occasions that you  recall?  One trip, me, Dan Michell, Sylvester William, late  Tommy Michell, we went all the way around this  mountain and down into the Corya Creek.  Last time we  got skunked.  We didn't shoot nothing.  There was  somebody ahead of us.  Did you go in again and did you catch something the  second time?  Yes.  We go different area.  We can't get any.  Can you recall approximately when it was when you were  last in that area that you just identified?  Last time I was there about '75.  1975.  Okay.  Are there any other locations within Wah Tah  K'eght's territory where you have gone to hunt goats?  There is another place marked Boulder Creek.  Right  behind that Boulder Creek is -- I don't know the name  of that peak.  It's pretty rough mountain.  Me,  Sylvester William, Sam Seymour, Ben Holland.  Sylvester invited us up there.  And that's still the northern part of the territory?  Yes.  And when was the last time when you were hunting goats  in that part of the territory?  That's approximately late sixties.  Okay.  And is there any other place within the --  within any of Wah Tah K'eght's territory where you  have been to hunt goat?  We went up Silver Lake. 3273  1 Q   Okay.  Just trying to find that.  2 A   There is that Silver Lake.  That's the one.  That's  3 between the mountain there.  4 Q   It's in the area marked goats near Ts'edeek'aay.  And  5 it's just the little lake at the end of Toboggan Lake.  6 I've just been told there is no such Wet'suwet'en  7 name.  8 THE INTERPRETER:  Ts'eedeek'aay.  9 MS. MANDELL:  10 Q   And who were you hunting goats with in that part of  11 the territory?  12 A   That's -- I went with Henry Alfred in that area.  13 Q   Okay.  14 THE COURT:  I'm sorry, did the witness call that lake at the  15 headwaters of Toboggan Creek, Silver Lake?  16 MS. MANDELL:  Yes.  17 THE COURT:  Yes.  Thank you.  18 Q   And you say you went in with Henry Alfred.  Did  19 anybody else at that time join you?  20 A   I went there with Sylvester William once, Dan Michell,  21 late Gordon Joseph, late Jimmy Joseph, Henry Alfred.  22 Q   Have you been in that area more than one time to hunt  23 goats?  24 A   Yes, more than one time.  25 Q   When was the last time to your best recollection that  26 you were there?  27 A   Last time would be around 1970.  There is road right  28 up there now.  29 Q   Okay.  And are there any other locations within Wah  30 Tah K'eght's territory that you have been to hunt  31 goats, or is that all of them?  32 A   One mountain -- that would up in Caspit's territory.  33 Q   I'll talk about Caspit's territory in a minute.  Does  34 that pretty much identify the area that you have been  35 in Wah Tah K'eght's territory for goats?  36 A   Yes.  37 Q   When you hunt goats in Wah Tah K'eght's territory,  38 what do you do with the meat that you are able to  39 take?  40 A  Well, if I hunt mountain goat, myself with Sylvester,  41 I just pack out what I want, what we shoot.  You know,  42 we all share.  Sometimes we got 6, 7 of us, we'll  43 shoot maybe 2 or 3 goat, and we'll just share it for  44 our own use.  45 Q   Okay.  46 A  At one time -- I forgot that place.  Dennis Lake.  47 Hunt goat in that area too. 3274  1 Q   There is another area in Wah Tah K'eght's territory  2 that you would like to identify?  3 A   Yes.  Dennis Lake.  That's where -- that's not in  4 here, I don't think.  It's right in there.  Dennis  5 Lake is way out there.  6 Q   It's in another territory.  All right.  Do you or any  7 of the other Wet'suwet'en people at Moricetown make  8 use of the goat skins when you've hunted goat there?  9 A   Not in my time.  And in ancestors' time they use that  10 lots.  11 Q   And do you know what it is that the ancestors use the  12 goat skin for?  13 A   They use it for rug and mattress.  14 Q   I am showing to you the map which identifies the Woos  15 and Caspit territories which you identified for us  16 this morning.  Could I have that exhibit please.  17 Taking first the Woos territory.  Have you gone into  18 that territory to hunt goats?  19 A   Yes.  20 Q   And could you identify where it is that you've been or  21 that territory?  22 A  Went up to this Bec'et K'esdiilih.  That's where we  23 hunt goat.  24 Q   I am going to mark that with the word goat in the  25 location you have identified.  And can you --  26 THE COURT:  Is that that long word in the southern part of the  27 territory?  2 8 MS. MANDELL:  Yes.  2 9 THE COURT:  Okay.  30 MS. MANDELL:  31 Q   Can you tell us who you went into that territory to  32 goat hunt with?  33 A  Me, late Dick Naziel and William Naziel.  We took two  34 saddle horse up in that area that time.  35 Q   And did you just go into that territory on one  36 occasion to hunt goats?  37 A   Just for goats, yes.  38 Q   And have you only hunted in that territory once for  39 goats or more than once?  40 A   Just that once for goats.  41 Q   And do you recall when that was?  42 A   1955.  43 Q   All right.  And were you successful in your goat  44 hunting there?  45 A   Yes.  We got four goats that time.  46 Q   Okay.  Now, I'm going to direct you to the Caspit  47 territory next door and ask you whether or not you 3275  1 ever hunted goats in Caspit's territory.  2 A   Yes.  3 Q   And could you identify where it is that you were there  4 to do that?  5 A   I hunted goat at Hat eet nen.  6 THE COURT:  Where is that please?  7 MS. MANDELL:  It's already been marked, My Lord.  It's on the —  8 it's Mount Seaton on the boundary.  9 THE COURT:  Okay.  10 THE WITNESS: And just that pass — there is another peak behind  11 it.  That's that peak.  Tsin Teel mountain.  12 MS. MANDELL:   Thank you.  13 Q   And who have you been to Caspit's territory with to  14 hunt goats?  15 A   I was there with late Sylvester William, late Joe  16 Naziel, Allan Naziel, Roy Michell, late Andrew Alfred.  17 Q   Were you there also with Cecil Alfred?  18 A   Yes, Cecil was there.  19 Q   All right.  And were you there in that territory which  20 you've identified in Caspit's territory on more than  21 one occasion to hunt goats?  22 A   Yes.  23 Q   Can you recall when the last time you were there to  24 hunt goats would be?  25 A   Over 10 years I have been up that way.  26 Q   Can you recall when the first time was?  27 A   First time out would be in the sixties.  28 Q   Okay.  And on the occasion where it was the first time  29 when you went out, do you recall how many goats it was  30 that you were able to take?  31 A  When we first walk up, this was late in the afternoon  32 going up the hill towards this peak here.  There was  33 seven of us coming up to that peak in there.  And the  34 southern side of that mountain there was -- counted  35 them -- 36 goats just going over the hill, over the  36 mountain to the other valley.  So it was late in the  37 evening, so we left them alone.  Me and Sylvester hunt  38 goats, tell them guys, oh, we'll get them in the  39 morning.  You go this way and we'll send them where we  4 0 want them to.  That's what we did the next day.  We  41 shot 14 that time.  42 Q   Okay.  Has there ever been an occasion that you can  43 recall when you've hunted goats in Caspit's territory  44 where the women from Moricetown packed the goats out  45 of the territory?  46 A   Yes, that's that time there was 7 of us.  14 was too  47 much to pack down there.  So after we got back to 3276  1 Moricetown, some women went up there.  2 Q   Okay.  Have you ever hunted goats at Hunter Basin  3 south of the Telkwa River?  4 A   Yes.  5 Q   And whose territory is that?  6 A   Gitdumden.  7 Q   All right.  8 THE COURT:  Is that Southern Basin?  9 MS. MANDELL:  Hunter Basin.  10 THE COURT:  Thank you.  11 Q   And who did you go into that territory to hunt goat  12 with?  13 A   I went in there with Dick Naziel, Sylvester William,  14 Peter Alfred, Francis Holland, late Sylvester  15 William's wife, Lucy.  I can't remember all the names.  16 Q   Did your father join you on that occasion?  17 A   Yes, my father was there.  18 Q   And was Warner Williams there?  19 A   Yes.  20 Q   How many -- on how many occasions can you recall you  21 did go into the Hunter Basin, the Gitdumden territory  22 to hunt goats?  23 A   First we went with Dick Naziel.  Our first trip there,  24 we didn't get any goat because there was a lot of  25 hunters in there.  And the road goes right up into  26 that basin.  There is a mine there.  There was a bear  27 in there.  My father-in-law shot it.  And second trip  28 we went out with Peter Alfred, me, Francis Holland.  29 Anyways, there was just three of us.  We pass that  30 Hunter Basin and go the next mountain we called  31 Det'nii but', right on the timber line.  Late Peter  32 Alfred shot a moose.  33 MS. MANDELL:   Just get spelling.  34 THE TRANSLATOR: D-e-t'n-i-i b-u-t'.  35 MS. MANDELL:  If we could just finish this questioning.  Did you ever go back into that basin, and were you  ever able to actually catch goat?  No, not there, no.  Did you ever take any goat out of the area south of  the Telkwa River?  No.  We didn't take no goats that time.  When was the last time you were there?  Do you recall?  Around 1972, '73.  LL:  My Lord, I think we'll stop at this moment.  45 THE COURT:  Two o'clock convenient?  46 MS. MANDELL:  Yes, that's fine.  47 THE REGISTRAR:  Order in court.  36  Q  37  38  A  39  Q  40  41  A  42  Q  43  A  4 4   MS.  MAN] 3277  1  2 (PROCEEDINGS ADJOURNED FOR LUNCHEON RECESS AT  3 12:00 P.M.)  4  5  6 I HEREBY CERTIFY THE FOREGOING TO  7 BE A TRUE AND ACCURATE TRANSCRIPT  8 OF THE PROCEEDINGS HEREIN TO THE  9 BEST OF MY SKILL AND ABILITY.  10  11  12 LORI OXLEY  13 OFFICIAL REPORTER  14 UNITED REPORTING SERVICE LTD.  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47 3278  1 (PROCEEDINGS RESUMED PURSUANT TO A LUNCH ADJOURNMENT)  2 THE REGISTRAR:  Order in court.  Delgamuukw versus Her Majesty  3 the Queen at bar, my lord.  4 MS. MANDELL:  Mr. Mitchell —  5 THE COURT:  Go ahead.  6 MS. MANDELL:  7 Q   Before we broke for lunch, we were discussing deer.  8 I'm sorry.  We were discussing goats and hunting for  9 them.  I'd like to go through the different  10 territories where you mentioned that you've hunted for  11 goats and groundhogs and ask you by what right you  12 were there.  The territory -- perhaps I could first  13 begin with Wah Tah K'eght's territory?  14 A   I was invited to hunting goats in Wah Tah K'eght's  15 territory with Sylvester Williams.  16 Q   And is Sylvester Williams Laksilyu?  17 A   Yes.  18 Q   And with respect to the Woos territory, by what right  19 were you hunting goats in that territory?  20 A   I went in there with late Dick Naziel; hunt goats in  21 that area.  22 Q   And is the Woos territory Gitdumden territory?  23 A   Yes.  24 Q   And is Dick Naziel Gitdumden?  25 A   Yes.  26 Q   And with respect to the Caspit territory, by what  27 right were you in that territory?  28 A   I was invited by Sylvester Williams, late Sylvester  29 William.  30 Q   And with respect to the territory around Hunter Basin,  31 by what right were you in that territory?  32 A   I went in there with Peter Alfred.  33 Q   All right.  And Peter Alfred is Gitdumden?  34 A   Yes.  35 Q   And the territory is Gitdumden?  36 A   Yes.  37 Q   When you go hunting for goats, do you get a permit  38 from the fish and wildlife officers?  39 A   No.  40 Q   Now, you identified in the course of your evidence  41 while talking about goats quite a number of  42 Wet'suwet'en people who you went hunting for goats  43 with.  Are all of those people who you've mentioned to  44 us today regular hunters?  45 A  What I mentioned today, they're all the regular goat  46 hunters.  There's more than that.  47 Q   But of the ones that you did mention, you say that 3279  1 those all are regular hunters?  2 A   Yes.  3 Q   And you've also described to us certain things which  4 you do when you're hunting goats, including how you  5 hunt for them and how you prepare the goat meat.  Are  6 those different things that you described common to  7 other Wet'suwet'en people who are hunting goats in  8 other parts of the Wet'suwet'en territory?  9 A   Yes.  They prepared all the same way.  It's common.  10 Q   For how long is the season where the Wet'suwet'en men  11 will go to hunt goats?  12 A  What?  13 Q   How long is it?  14 A   Oh, for goat hunting we don't go out there too long.  15 About three, four days, two days.  16 MS. MANDELL:  Is there some —  17 THE COURT:  I don't think the witness has answered the question  18 you asked him.  19 MS. MANDELL:  I know.  I'm going to come back around to it.  2 0 THE COURT:  Thank you.  21 MS. MANDELL:  22 Q   Is there some way, some particular sign which the  23 Wet'suwet'en used to learn when the animals are  24 fattening up and it's time to go hunting?  25 A   In summer time my father told me that there's wild  26 celery when the flowers are bloom.  That's when the  27 wild celery flowers have bloomed.  When they come to  28 full bloom, that is when all the wild animals were in  29 the -- have -- have all fattened out then.  30 Q   And are there wild celery plants around Moricetown?  31 A   Yes.  32 Q   And do -- do you and other Wet'suwet'en people today  33 still watch for the wild celery plants to bloom to  34 know when it's time to go hunting?  35 A  Well, they watch.  I watch it all the time.  36 Q   And when it -- when it is time to go hunting, is it  37 your evidence that the Wet'suwet'en hunters go hunting  38 for goats and groundhogs first?  39 A  We always go hunt goats and groundhogs first.  4 0 Q   And approximately how many weeks or months would  41 you -- would you take to do your goat and groundhog  42 hunting?  How much time would you take to do that?  43 A   I go out goat hunting just for few days, and I'll have  44 about two goats for myself.  After my goat hunting,  45 then I go hunt the other species.  46 Q   All right.  So after your goat hunting, what other  47 species of animals do you then go hunt? 3280  1 A  Moose, deer, bear, caribou.  That is quite a ways to  2 go to get that.  My dad told me that caribou --  3 there's lots right around that Bec'et K'esdiilih.  4 There's nothing there.  5 Q   That's in the Namox area?  6 A   No.  Bec'et K'esdiilih is in the Woos territory, that  7 plateau we're talking about this morning where goats  8 are.  9 MS. MANDELL:  The name is on the map, my lord.  It's the same  10 area where we've marked that goats are prevalent.  11 THE COURT:  Yes.  12 MS. MANDELL:  I might indicate with purple underneath that word the  word "caribou", indicating the witness' evidence here.  The caribou are no longer in Woos' territory; is that  correct?  No.  Not in there now.  Were they there during the lifetime of your father?  He said there's lots of caribou in that area in my  father's -- when he was young.  Okay.  So at this time after you've gone goat hunting,  then you go hunting for deer, moose and bear; is that  correct?  Yes.  And have you gone hunting for these species of animals  throughout your life?  Throughout my life, yes.  And do you go every year?  Every year except for this last couple of years to  Namox's territory.  I go there every year.  That's --  that's when they had this road built right around that  area.  Do you get a permit to hunt for deer, moose or bear?  No.  Do you go during any particular season?  Well, I go hunt moose, deer maybe two, one weeks  before season open for white man.  So you go before the season opens for the white man?  Yeah.  And why do you go at that time?  Well, because I'm afraid of the white man shooting me.  They always shoot each other when they go moose  hunting.  Are there like stories among the Wet'suwet'en of the  Wet'suwet'en hunters shooting and hitting each other?  Not that I know.  What have you been taught by your father or your  13  Q  14  15  16  17  A  18  Q  19  A  20  21  Q  22  23  24  A  25  Q  26  27  A  28  Q  29  A  30  31  32  33  Q  34  A  35  Q  36  A  37  38  Q  39  A  40  Q  41  A  42  43  44  Q  45  46  A  47  Q 1  2  3  A  4  5  6  7  8  9  Q  10  A  11  Q  12  13  14  A  15  Q  16  A  17  Q  18  A  19  Q  20  21  A  22  Q  23  A  24  Q  25  26  A  27  28  Q  29  30  A  31  Q  32  33  34  35  A  36  37  38  Q  39  40  41  A  42  43  Q  44  A  45  Q  46  47  3281  grandfather about hunting which would prevent such  accidents?  He told us -- my father kept telling me watch to out  for them white hunters.  If white hunters see anything  moving, they shoot it.  But he told us, even my  grandfather, "Make sure it's a deer, a moose or a  deer, bear.  Make sure before you shoot", and that's  how we're taught how to hunt.  And if you can't identify the animal, do you shoot it?  No.  We don't shoot it.  Now, you mentioned that you go to Namox's territory  every year.  Was it on Namox's territory that you shot  your first moose?  Yes.  And can you recall, how old were you then?  I was 11 years old.  Did you kill the moose?  Yes.  Can you indicate where within the Namox territory  there's good moose and deer hunting?  Good moose, deer hunting that whole territory.  Okay.  Bear too.  And bear as well.  Did your father teach you where  within the Namox territory salt-licks can be found?  It's -- the salt-lick in every swamp along the swamp.  Pretty near every swamp has a salt-lick.  Why would a Wet'suwet'en hunter want to know the  locations of the salt-licks?  Because they know where to go to get the moose.  I wonder if the witness could be shown Exhibit 184,  please.  I'm producing to you Exhibit 184, the sketch  map of Namox's territory.  Could you point out where  some of the salt-licks are on Namox's territory?  There's one right in the trapline here.  That's --  that will be just east of that Nee'del.  That's right  in the swamp here.  I'm going to indicate that location with a purple "K".  Are there any other places where there's salt-licks on  Namox's territory?  There's one right in this open area here.  That's been  logged out.  Okay.  That's been logged out right there.  I'm going to mark that with an "L".  Since the area  has been logged out, has the salt-lick also been  destroyed, or is it still there? 3282  1 A   It's still there.  2 Q   Okay.  Are there any other main salt-licks located on  3 Namox's territory?  4 A   Past this little lake is one right along the road  5 here, just by that road.  6 Q   Okay.  I'm going to mark that with an "M".  7 A  And there's another one here just below this trail  8 here, between this trail and the creek.  9 Q   Okay.  I'll mark that with an "N".  Are there any  10 others?  11 A   Back in this -- back here behind this area here,  12 there's a swamp here.  That's -- there'll be another  13 one right there.  14 Q   Okay.  I'll mark that with an "0".  15 A   That's all I can remember.  16 MS. MANDELL:  Okay.  My lord, perhaps I can simply hand up the  17 exhibit to you and you can --  18 THE COURT:  Yes.  Thank you.  19 MS. MANDELL:  20 Q   When you go into the Namox territory to hunt for deer  21 or moose, where do you stay?  22 A   I stayed in that -- that new cabin that we built.  23 Q   That's the cabin that you identified yesterday in --  24 on one of the pictures; is that correct?  25 A   Yes.  26 Q   I believe it was Exhibit 20 -- it was shown in Exhibit  27 208.  Is this the cabin that you were talking about?  28 A   Yes.  29 Q   All right.  It's at Tab 8.  Prior to the time when  30 that cabin had been built, where would you stay when  31 you would go into Namox's territory to hunt for deer  32 or moose?  33 A   There's an old cabin behind that new cabin.  That's  34 where we usually stay.  That'll be in the sixties.  35 Q   This is Exhibit 209 that we had identified yesterday.  36 It's a -- it's a little cabin that you — is this the  37 cabin that you stayed in?  38 A   That's this one here.  39 Q   All right.  It's at Tab 18.  Did — did your father  40 show you how to use the muscles from the back of the  41 moose to serve a purpose?  42 A   Yes.  43 Q   And what did he show you that those muscles from the  44 back of the moose could be used for?  45 A  Well, when you shoot a moose, you cut the muscle out,  46 and they call it Ts'egh, and they hang it up.  They  47 dry that really dry, and they use that for thread, 3283  1 selling moccasins, things like that.  2 Q   Did your father show you whether any part of the moose  3 hide could be used in the making of snow-shoes?  4 A   They use the moose hide for big babeese (phonetic).  5 In our language we call it Tl'ol C'oo for weaving  6 snow-shoes.  7 THE SPELLER:  T-1-apostrophe-o-l-underline-c-apostrophe-o-o.  8 MS. MANDELL:  9 Q   And have you used the moose hide for the making of  10 snow-shoes which you've made yourself?  11 A   Out in the territory my father -- there's three of us.  12 My father made the snow-shoes and using the moose hide  13 rope, the babeese.  I -- I -- I put the webbing in  14 myself.  15 Q   Were you a young boy or a young person when this  16 happened or were you older?  17 A   Yeah.  He's teaching me.  18 Q   And have you -- do you know whether or not the moose  19 hides are used still today to make the big weave of  20 the snow shoe?  21 A   They still do.  22 Q   Okay.  And the deer hides, are they also used in the  23 making of the snow-show?  24 A   Deer hide and caribou skins they use for small  25 babeese.  We call that Tl'ol deet.  26 THE SPELLER:  Tl'ol deet, T-1-apostrophe-o-l-underline-d-e-e-t.  27 MS. MANDELL:  28 Q   And are the deer hides used today still for the making  29 of snow-shoes?  30 A   Yes.  31 Q   When you shoot a moose or a deer in the Namox's -- in  32 Namox's territory, what do you normally do with the  33 meat?  34 A   The meat, right now in my time, like shoot a moose, I  35 take it out.  We dried some of it and we canned some  36 of it.  37 Q   Do you do this right on the territory or do you  38 transport it back to Moricetown?  39 A  We take it back to Moricetown.  40 Q   In the lifetime of your father would the preparation  41 of the meat be done on the territory or would he also  42 take it back to Moricetown, to your knowledge?  43 A   In my father's time they don't do that.  They dry it  44 right out in the territory.  45 Q   And what do you do with the moose hides and the deer  46 hides which you take from the Namox territory?  47 A   Right now there's a road through there.  In my time if 3284  1 I shoot a moose or a deer, I take a hike back to  2 Moricetown and give it to whoever wants it.  That's --  3 that's Madeline Albert, my mother-in-law, Lizette  4 Naziel, Joseph Michell and my Aunt Emma Michell.  5 Q   And have you seen what those women have done with the  6 moose and deer hides which you've given to them?  7 A   Yeah.  8 Q   And what —  9 A  Moose hide for moose skin for making moccasins,  10 jacket.  They even make the gloves out of them, gun  11 case.  12 Q   Who within your lifetime do you know hunted -- or  13 has -- is now hunting moose and deer in the Namox's  14 territory?  15 A   In my time is Stan Michell, my brother Billy Mitchell  16 and Bill Holland and Lucy Williams' son, Pat Namox,  17 lots more.  I don't know.  18 Q   Lots more but you don't know.  Do you know whether or  19 not the Wet'suwet'en traded moose skin and dried meat  20 with the people from the coast for oolichan grease or  21 for sea creatures?  22 A  My father told me that they traded with the coast  23 people dry moose meat, moose skin or soap berries.  24 They traded for oolichan grease, seaweed, fish eggs,  25 clams or abalone.  26 Q   Do you know whether or not this exchange continues  27 today?  2 8 A   I traded some in my time.  29 MS. MANDELL:  I wonder if the witness can be shown Exhibit 211,  30 please.  31 THE REGISTRAR:  I believe he has that in front of him.  32 MS. MANDELL:  33 Q   Okay.  Good.  Have you -- there's the map in front of  34 you that we were working with this morning of Caspit  35 and Woos' territory.  Have you hunted for deer and for  36 moose on Caspit's territory?  37 A   Yes.  Lower part along the Bulkley River, Wed'sen Kwe.  38 Q   I wonder if you could point out to me where the deer  39 and moose hunting has taken place?  40 A  Along the -- there's one access road, forestry access  41 road right along the river here.  You can see that,  42 eh.  43 Q   Yes.  44 A   I hunt moose along there, and there's another access  45 road goes up in the hill.  I hunted there too.  46 Q   Okay.  I'm going to mark those places between those  47 two access roads with the words "deer" and "moose". 1  2  3  4  5  6  A  7  Q  8  9  A  10  11  12  Q  13  A  14  Q  15  16  A  17  18  Q  19  A  20  Q  21  22  A  23  24  25  26  Q  27  28  A  29  Q  30  31  32  A  33  34  Q  35  36  A  37  38  Q  39  40  41  42  A  43  Q  44  A  45  Q  46  47  3285  My lord, it's just along the Bulkley River.  There's  two roads.  You can identify them by a double blue  line and the marking is between the two lines.  Have you hunted in that location on Caspit's  territory often?  Yes.  And can you estimate when was the last time that you  were there hunting deer and moose?  Last year me and my wife, we drove this road.  We  didn't see nothing, because there was -- we didn't go  out in the bush where -- hunting like white man.  Okay.  Drive around.  Who have you hunted in Caspit's -- with whom have you  hunted in Caspit's territory?  Oh, me and Sylvester Williams, we hunt this area lots  for moose.  And do you also hunt bear in Caspit's territory?  Yes.  Is there a particular location which is good for bear  there?  There's -- about two years ago I shot a moose, a bear.  There's another access road goes right across here.  It's not on the map, but I shot a bear right there,  someplace in this area.  My lord, it's the same area as the deer and the moose  are.  I'm just going to add the word "bear".  That's where me and my wife --  While you have the map in front of you, could you  advise whether or not you've ever hunted for deer and  moose in Woos' territory?  I've been in that Woos territory; went up there for  the goats.  Is -- do you know whether or not there are deer and  moose who are in the Woos territory?  There's lot of moose and deer along this swamp, in the  valley anyway.  I'm just going to indicate that as you've marked it,  indicate it by putting "deer" and "moose" along the  ridge that you've indicated.  How do you know that  there is deer and moose in that swamp valley?  Oh, trails along the swamps.  And you've seen those trails?  Lots of moose trails.  Okay. Okay. Could the witness be shown Exhibit 164,  please? Have you hunted for deer or for moose in Wah  Tah K'eght's territory? 1  A  2  Q  3  4  A  5  6  7  8  Q  9  10  11  A  12  13  14  15  16  Q  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  A  25  Q  26  27  28  A  29  Q  30  31  A  32  33  34  Q  35  A  36  37  Q  38  A  39  Q  40  41  42  43  A  44  Q  45  A  46  47  3286  Yes.  And could you indicate where you've hunted for deer  and moose there?  Okay.  Right now they've got the road.  Right behind  this Gramophone Creek, there's a road along here.  That's where they've got this red marker on here.  We  hunted around there lots.  Okay.  The witness is indicating the -- the dot -- the  dash line connecting the number two trapline which  veers south around the slash area.  And right along this Meed Creek, all the way up to  this clearing, there's a salt-lick right here,  someplace here, in this area, and there's good clear  country in this little hill.  You call this Spring  Hill.  The witness has indicated that they -- that he's  travelled down the number four line and into the area  which is marked "still good moose hunting" and he  indicates there that they shot deer, and I'm going to  put the word "deer" just around the area that he  pointed to.  Have you hunted deer and moose in Wah Tah K'eght's  territory often?  Yes.  Okay.  When you are able to catch or shoot deer or  moose in the area around Moricetown, do you distribute  the meat to any of the older people?  Yes.  And who are the elders who you either have or do  distribute the deer and the moose meat to?  The elders would be Joseph Michell, Bazil Michell, my  mother-in-law, Lizette Naziel, Mrs. Peter -- Madeline  Albert, my grandfather, Jimmy Michell.  That's the late Jimmy Michell?  The late Jimmy Michell, the late Arthur Michell and  his wife.  The late Dick Naziel?  Yes.  And Peter Jim and his wife.  You mentioned many -- several days ago, last week,  that Christine Holland announced at a feast your right  to use the Poplar and Pack Lake area.  Do you hunt  deer and moose in that territory?  Yes.  And have you done so throughout your life?  I went moose hunting during the sixties, deer hunting,  bear, with late Sylvester William, late Sam Seymore,  late Ben Holland.  David Alec was invited, and I was 3287  1 invited in there.  We went in there quite a few  2 occasions.  Once I shot a bear in that territory.  3 Q   Can you recall when the last time was that you were in  4 that territory to hunt for deer or moose?  5 A   That would be about eight years ago.  6 THE COURT:  That was in —  7 MS. MANDELL:  8 Q   The Knedebeas territory.  That's the Pack lake and  9 Poplar Lake.  10 After the moose and deer hunting season is over,  11 where then would the Wet'suwet'en traditionally go and  12 what animals would they then harvest?  13 A  After the moose season's over, then they go out to the  14 traplines.  That's in October, around Mid-October.  15 Q   And when you say "to their traplines", what animals  16 are they then moving to trap?  17 A   They get ready to set their traps for marten, fisher,  18 mink, squirrels, coyote, fox, weasel.  19 Q   In your lifetime have the Wet'suwet'en continued to go  20 out to their -- to their territories in the fall to --  21 to do their trapping for these fur-bearing animals?  22 A   Yes.  23 Q   And have you gone out into Namox's territory in the  24 fall to trap for fur-bearing animals in your lifetime?  25 A   In my lifetime I start out October 20th.  26 Q   Okay.  And traditionally how long would the  27 Wet'suwet'en people stay in their territories to hunt?  28 When would they clear out again?  29 A   In our ancestors' days, they stay out the whole winter  30 till next summer, June.  In our days, in my days, we  31 come out for Christmas.  32 Q   And then do you then go back into the territory in the  33 springtime?  34 A   Then we go back in the springtime around last week in  35 April, March for beaver.  36 Q   Okay.  Are there still, to your knowledge, any of the  37 Wet'suwet'en people who will stay the entire winter  38 out in their territories today?  Are there any -- to  39 your knowledge, are there any Wet'suwet'en people who  40 still will stay out in their territories the whole  41 winter and not come back in around Christmas time?  42 A   Yes.  Now, in my time they would come in at Christmas  43 and then they would go out again after Christmas.  44 They go in and out with vehicles and snow mobiles.  45 Q   I'd like to concentrate first in the time when you  46 were a boy and ask you whether or not in that time  47 period did you go out to Namox's territory and stay 3288  the whole winter?  In my time we never did stay out the whole winter.  Okay.  Prior to your going out into the territory in  the fall, would you and your family get supplies to  take into the territory?  When we go out in the territories to go trapping, we  would take enough supply, food supply to last us up  until Christmas, sometimes a little more, and when we  get out in the territory, when we first go out there,  we would hunt for animals for about a week to use for  bait and then we -- after we -- after we get enough  bait, then we set traps.  Okay.  And we also take a lot of smoke salmon along for -- to  use out in the territories because the smoke salmon  which we gather in the summer, we take along because  it's light to take along.  And what animals do you trap -- do you hunt or trap  and use them for bait?  We use fool hen, rabbits, blue grouse. When we start  trapping, we catch few squirrels in our trapline. We  also use that as a bait.  And you said that you were trapping in Namox's  territory since you were a boy.  Can you advise how --  approximately when -- to what time -- let me try this  again.  Have you been trapping marten and other  fur-bearing animals in Namox's territory all your  life?  Yes.  Was there a period of time when you stopped trapping  regularly for marten in Namox's territory?  I start in — I trap there in the 40's, '46, '47 right  up to '52.  There's hardly any marten around there,  so -- so by that time there's some jobs around  Smithers.  That's when I quit trapping marten that  time.  Okay.  And do you know whether or not -- since you've  stopped trapping marten regularly in Namox's  territory, whether any of the other members of your  family have continued to do so?  Billy's trapping there pretty near every year, not  every year.  He takes one or two year off.  :  One or two marten.  44 MS. MANDELL:  45 Q   One or two years off.  46 Do you have the map of Namox's territory in front  47 of you?  It's Exhibit 184.  Okay.  Can you —  1  2  A  3  Q  4  5  6  A  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  Q  14  A  15  16  17  18  Q  19  20  A  21  22  23  Q  24  25  26  27  28  29  A  30  Q  31  32  A  33  34  35  36  37  Q  38  39  40  41  A  42  43 THE  COURT 3289  1 beginning first with the part of Namox's territory  2 which we've been calling the north part of Namox's  3 territory, can you indicate where the major lines are  4 where you or your family have been using to trap for  5 marten and other fur-bearing animals?  6 A   Northern part on these dotted lines here, that's our  7 trapline.  It goes up to C'e yis c'ez, one of them,  8 and another one goes up to same direction.  That's a  9 longer meadow.  And another short line goes up to L  10 diits la yis.  And from that lake, going south from  11 that lake, another short line goes up to this -- I  12 forgot the name of this hill there.  There's a hill  13 there.  And from Tsee zuul ts'ak Ben, that's our main  14 camp.  Sometimes we don't trap this every year, this  15 long line right up to Neel dziis Tl'aat.  That's the  16 one that take us long time to get it all set.  And  17 there's some short lines going up to -- to this Nee'  18 del.  Right about here he was setting camp, my dad.  19 Just go over here a little ways.  There's a salt-lick  20 there.  It's just like that, oh, about five minutes'  21 walk.  So then there was a moose there.  I shot that.  22 He showed me how to fix it.  He made a rack for it.  23 We dried it right there.  We stayed there about three  24 days.  That's one I use.  Everytime I go back and  25 forth, I always pick up some there.  26 Q   Is that at the place where we've marked "K" or is that  27 a different salt-lick?  28 A   That's where -- that's what it is.  That's where it  29 is.  30 Q   All right.  We'll have to get these names, my lord.  I  31 might indicate that --  32 A   That was L eedlus c'a di dl'eet, they call this  33 salt-lick.  34 MS. MANDELL:  The witness has indicated all of the — he's  35 tracked all of these small trails that are marked with  36 dotted lines.  37 THE SPELLER:  Okay.  C'e yis c'ez is 551.  C'e yis c'ez is 551.  3 8 THE COURT:  Thank you.  39 THE SPELLER:  And L diits la yis, I have a spelling for it:  40 L-underline-d-i-i-t-s-1-underline-a-y-i-s.  What was  41 after L diits la yis?  42 MS. MANDELL:  I put the number down.  43 THE SPELLER:  And the one after L diits la yis is 556, and Neel  44 dziis Tl'aat is 555, Nee' del, 570, L eedlus  45 c'adidl'eet:  4 6 L-underline-e-e-d-l-u-s-c-apostrophe-a-d-i-d-1-  47 apostrophe-e-e-t. 3290  1 THE COURT:  e-e-t.  2 THE SPELLER:  Yes.  3 MS. MANDELL:  4 Q   You've identified a number of lines, mostly in the  5 northern part of the territory.  Do you know whether  6 or not your family rotated those lines on a regular  7 basis?  8 A   Yes.  We do rotate the lines.  We would use one line,  9 indicating on the map on the north side, and then we  10 would move to the other end of the area, the south  11 side.  We don't always use the same line every year.  12 Q   And when you -- when you set traps, how often would  13 you check the traps?  14 A   Three days, four days.  15 Q   Why would you check the traps that often?  16 A   If it's snowing, sometimes it snows about six, seven  17 inches.  Every fresh snow we have to go out and set  18 trap.  Sometimes we leave a trap for a week.  You  19 catch a marten.  The mice shave it right off.  I guess  20 they use it for down.  21 Q   I wonder now if you could turn to the traplines that  22 are in the southern part of the territory, and I'd ask  23 you whether or not you're aware of any of those  24 traplines which have been used by those in the Namox's  25 territory?  26 A   Okay.  Alec Tiljoe's cabin.  He use this a lot.  I  27 don't know his trapline, but he always comes this way  28 and up this way, and up the Tsee Delk'en, and they got  29 the line there at Tsee Deek Woot'ai, and they've got  30 some other lines that I don't know.  31 Q   The witness has indicated the dotted lines that  32 intercept the number two on the south end of the  33 territory, the dotted line which moves northeast  34 around Sam Goosley Lake and the dotted line that --  35 the two dotted lines that run in the southern part of  36 the territory already indicated.  37 And is the main trail which you identified  38 yesterday between the north and the south part of the  39 territory, is that trail also used as a trapline for  40 the setting of traps for marten and fur-bearing  41 animals?  42 A   Right now -- before they put this road in, I set trap  43 partways up that line, up that trail, not right  44 through, just -- just such a short line.  45 MS. MANDELL:  Okay.  46 THE COURT:  This heavy blue line on the left-hand side of  47 Exhibit 184, is that a road? 3291  1 THE WITNESS:  This one you're talking about?  Oh.  This one  2 here.  3 THE COURT:  Well, if you look at — it looks like Neenlii Wek'ut  4 on the south-west corner of the property.  5 MS. MANDELL:  Yes.  6 THE COURT:  There's a heavy blue line that goes up the left-hand  7 side of the sketch and then continues on down to the  8 south towards looks like Tichgas (phonetic).  Is that  9 a road?  10 MR. MACKENZIE:  My lord, if I could assist, that's the Buck  11 Flats Road.  That's the road.  12 THE COURT:  From that point, Neenlii Wek'ut, it looks like  13 there's another road going into a little lake just  14 on —  15 THE WITNESS:  That's a road that goes into this little lake.  16 THE COURT:  That's another little road, is it?  17 MS. MANDELL:  Yes.  18 THE WITNESS:  And then goes by this little lake again and then  19 goes right down to the Sam Goosley Lake.  20 THE COURT:  Oh, yes, it does.  It goes on to Sam Goosley Lake.  21 Are those government roads or what are they?  22 THE WITNESS:  The dotted line goes up the logging road.  That's  23 a logging road.  24 THE COURT:  I see.  Are those -- are those all logging roads or  25 are they government roads or what are they?  26 THE WITNESS:  It's forest service access road.  27 THE COURT:  Put in there by the government?  28 THE WITNESS:  B.C. Forest.  2 9 THE COURT:  B.C. Forest.  Thank you.  Thank you.  30 THE WITNESS:  I don't know what this is.  This must be a  31 government road.  It goes out to the Indian reserve.  32 I don't know about that.  33 THE COURT:  Thank you.  Do you want to take the afternoon  34 adjournment now, Ms. Mandell?  35 MS. MANDELL:  Sure.  36 THE COURT:  All right.  37 THE REGISTRAR:  Order in court.  Court is adjourned.  38  39  4 0 (PROCEEDINGS ADJOURNED)  41  42  43  44  45  46  47 3292  1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  11 I hereby certify the foregoing to be  12 a true and accurate transcript of the  13 proceedings transcribed to the best  14 of my skill and ability.  15  16  17  18 Kathie Tanaka, Official Reporter  19 UNITED REPORTING SERVICE LTD.  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47 3293  1 (PROCEEDINGS RECOMMENCED AFTER A BRIEF RECESS)  2  3 MR. MACKENZIE: My Lord, my friends seem to have stepped out of  4 the courtroom.  5 THE COURT:  I'm sure they won't be long now.  6 THE REGISTRAR:  Courtroom 53 please.  Courtroom 53.  7 MS. MANDELL:  Sorry, My Lord, we are late.  8 Q   We are still dealing with Exhibit 184, the Namox  9 territory.  Could you identify who within your  10 lifetime has, to your knowledge, trapped beaver in the  11 southern portion of the Namox territory?  12 A   On this Goosley Lake -- would this be beaver?  13 Q   I'm sorry, I don't mean beaver.  I am talking about  14 marten and the fur bearing animals.  I am ahead of  15 myself.  16 A   In my lifetime, Alec Namox, he trapped around Sam  17 Goosley.  Late Al Tiljoe and his wife Pat Namox, they  18 trapped around that area.  Joe Namox.  Little Tommy  19 and his wife, Dan Michell.  That's for marten.  20 Q   And you gave evidence that your brother Billy was  21 trapping there now?  22 A   Right now, yes.  He moved down there.  23 Q   Do you know whether or not the southern portion of the  24 territory is trapped now today as it once was?  25 A   Not like it was before.  When Billy, he set a trap  26 there, it was after Christmas, and he said he just  27 making short lines because there is a lot of clear cut  28 area.  He couldn't go right up to the line, to the  29 boundary.  Just short little line.  That's all he can  30 set.  31 Q   Okay.  And within your lifetime who to your knowledge  32 has trapped in the northern portion of the Namox  33 territory?  34 A   It will be me, Billy Mitchell, my father, Misaloos,  35 late George Michell, we trapped at northern part for  36 marten.  37 Q   Do you know whether or not the people who are trapping  38 on Namox's territory tell each other where they trap  39 and what animals they catch?  40 A  When we get home back to Moricetown, we always tell  41 each other where we trapped, what area.  Either the  42 southern part or the northern part.  43 Q   And on the basis of those conversations, is it  44 determined where each of the trappers will go the  45 following year?  4 6 A   So that they know where to go the next year.  Always  47 tell each other. 3294  1 Q   And does the chief have the authority to tell the  2 trappers where they will be going to trap the  3 following year?  4 A   Yes.  5 Q   Are there species of marten trapped on the Namox  6 territory which are more valuable than others?  7 A   Species of marten?  8 Q   Uh-huh.  9 A   There is jack pine marten there.  They are not as good  10 as this big timber area marten.  They are dark.  11 They -- you get more money for them when they are  12 dark.  13 Q   And where within the territory are you more likely to  14 trap the big timber area marten?  15 A   Right along this east side of that Nee' del.  Right  16 around that Nee' del area.  This area there, big  17 timber.  Right down to this creek here.  This part,  18 lower part, you get dark brown marten.  Right here  19 where that 'Y' is, you get good dark and short haired  2 0 marten.  21 THE COURT:  Is that along Buck Creek?  22 THE WITNESS:  No, that's up — way up south end of the — where  23 5330 is.  It's just east of that.  24 MS. MANDELL:  My Lord, it's north of Allin Creek and it's the  25 part of the territory which -- part of the line where  26 you will find approximately at the centre of the curve  27 drawn by the witness with his pen the letter K.  2 8 THE COURT:  Yes.  All right.  2 9 MS. MANDELL:  30 Q   And are there any other places within the Namox  31 territory where the more valuable marten have often  32 times been trapped?  33 A   It will be the southern, southern part of that lake.  34 There is a big timber area right from that Tsee  35 Delk'en.  Go right up to the end of that trapline  36 there, into the boundary up to this area where all the  37 good timber.  Now it's all logging area, clear cut  38 area along here, even right around here now.  39 Q   All right.  My Lord, the witness has indicated from  40 the boundary point Tsee Delk'en heading east to the  41 furthest most peak of the territory, and then to  42 follow that north to approximately where you see the  43 number 4550 as it parallels the boundary.  44 And are there any other portions of the territory  45 where the more valuable marten have often been  46 trapped?  47 A   The valuable marten -- up this Tsee Delk'en area, 3295  1 that's a trapline there, and that's all clear cut  2 right up to the top of this mountain there.  3 Q   The witness has indicated from the trapline which  4 intercepts -- approximately where you will see a  5 number 1 down to the southern border at Tsee Deek  6 Woot'ai.  7 THE COURT: Oh, yes.  8 MS. MANDELL:  That trapline is another one where valuable marten  9 have been located.  10 THE WITNESS:  Another place here called L diits La yis.  Just in  11 this area is good dark marten, the valuable.  12 MS. MANDELL:   The witness has indicated approximately the  13 circumference of the letter F.  14 THE COURT:  Is there a spelling for that?  15 THE TRANSLATOR:  L, underline, d-i-i-t-s L, underline, a y-i-s.  16 THE COURT:  Thank you.  17 MS. MANDELL:  While we're — it's the red F, My Lord, not F —  18 THE COURT: Yes, that's the one I have.  19 MS. MANDELL:  I also wanted to ask you about the dashed line which  goes from the -- goes across the territory west to  east along Sam Goosley, and ask you what is that line.  There is a main trail -- there is a main trail that  goes north either lake, goes right up to Niss tsee  Diizdlee Kwe boundary.  That's our main trail.  And  another main trail is Twin Two Lakes here, Sam  Goosley, Neel dzii Teezdlii right up to Tsee zuul  ts'ak.  That's our main trail.  Do you know -- that trail has been marked with a  dashed line and is indicated as a main trail on the  legend of the map.  Do you know who made that trail?  That trail's been there way before me, even way before  my father's time.  Could the witness be shown Exhibit 211, please.  Do  you know whether or not there is good trapping for  marten and fur bearing animals on Caspit's territory?  There is good marten trapping -- like I said this  morning, at the line right through here, right down  through this lake down to this Xet ben yex I call  this.  That's this name place for trapping marten.  But it's good trapping area.  When I went in there  with him trapping beaver, we used snowshoes.  You see  marten tracks anyplace you go.  So that's a good  trapping area for marten.  I wonder if you could again indicate where Sylvester  Williams would be setting his traps for marten?  Be about around here someplace.  That's where he got  20  Q  21  22  23  A  24  25  26  27  28  29  Q  30  31  32  A  33  34  Q  35  36  37  A  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  Q  46  47  A 1  2  Q  3  A  4  5  6  7  Q  8  9  A  10  11  12  Q  13  14  A  15  16  Q  17  18  19  20  A  21  Q  22  23  A  24  Q  25  26  A  27  Q  28  A  29  Q  30  A  31  Q  32  A  33  34  Q  35  36  A  37  38  39  40  41  42  Q  43  44  45  46  47  A  3296  his Xet ben yex I will call it.  And does he come in from the Bulkley?  Yes, he comes in from Moricetown here.  At that time  there was no trail there.  They use this trapline  trail.  That's the main trail that goes into that  territory.  And did he set traps all the way from the Bulkley to  his main camp?  At that time we just use that trail to get into that  territory to trap beaver.  He didn't set traps there.  He said that's his trapline.  Let me understand this.  Did Sylvester Williams set  traps for marten and in the Caspit territory?  Yes, he got his trapline right from here down to his  cabin.  I am going to indicate that with a purple line  approximately where the witness has directed.  Did your father and your grandfather also trap  marten in Caspit's territory to your knowledge?  Yes, my grandfather, he trapped through that area.  And when you say that area, you are pointing to the  same area that Sylvester Williams was using?  Yes.  Do you know by what right your grandfather had to use  the Caspit territory to trap marten?  Neg'edeld'es.  Who was his father?  I don't know.  I wasn't told, but he was --  Your father was or your grandfather?  Yes.  Did you ever go in with Sylvester to set traps?  I didn't go up there for marten.  All I went in there  was for beaver.  And when you went in with Sylvester for beaver, did he  identify to you where he set traps for marten?  There is only one I know of him setting traps.  And  later on they had this road through there.  He was  telling me, this all cleared area.  They set traps  right along here.  He set down this trail here and go  into the mountain here.  He said he had his trapline  for marten right along here.  That's that road.  I am indicating again with a purple line and the word  marten where the witness has identified Sylvester  Williams' trapline.  Do you know whether or not there is marten trapping  on Woos's territory?  I never did go out that way for marten trapping.  I 3297  just went out for beaver trapping.  All right.  And have you trapped for marten in the  Telkwa River area?  Telkwa River, I didn't go out for marten, just for  beaver.  Okay.  And the area around Palling, did you trap for  marten in that area?  Palling, yes.  I was just learning at that time.  My  father set a trap and I set a few.  He teach me.  We  set trap in that -- stayed at cabin I don't know how  many days.  We got one line set and went back to  Donald Walters' farm.  That's where we stayed.  Okay.  This is the story you told us about when you  were a boy; is that correct?  Yes, that's the one.  And who were you trapping marten with at that time?  My father and late Donald Walter.  And is that Namox's territory, another Namox  territory?  Boo territory.  And that territory is at the north end of Decker Lake?  Yes.  And do you know whether or not that territory is  called the Boo territory?  Boo territory, yes.  And is Chief Wil'aat, was he at that time Old Boo?  Do  you know?  I don't know if it's the same, but all I know is my  father was trapping in that entire area.  :  The spelling of Wil'aat please.  31 MS. MANDELL: I believe it's W-i-1-e-t.  32 THE TRANSLATOR: W-i-1'a-a-t.  33 THE COURT:  A-a-t.  Thank you.  34 Q   Now, you mentioned earlier that the people, the  35 Wet'suwet'en people, would stay on their territories  36 to the spring.  What would they harvest in the spring?  37 A   Just before they leave the territory in the month of  38 May, there is some lakes.  That's where they harvest  39 trouts.  40 Q   Okay.  And on the Namox territory can you identify  41 where trout can be found?  42 A   Yes.  Tsee zuul ts'ak Ben, get good trouts there, and  43 'Alegh Ben, a little lake, got good trout.  44 Q   I am going to mark those two lakes, the first one with  45 an '0'.  46 THE COURT:  Where is it please?  47 MS. MANDELL:  I'm sorry, I'll mark it with a 'P'.  My Lord, it's  1  2  Q  3  4  A  5  6  Q  7  8  A  9  10  11  12  13  Q  14  15  A  16  Q  17  A  18  Q  19  20  A  21  Q  22  A  23  Q  24  25  A  26  Q  27  28  A  29  30 THE  COURT 3298  1 the lake marked in dark just immediately above the 'F'  2 on the north side of the territory.  3 THE COURT:  Yes.  4 MS. MANDELL:  And the second one is on the north end of the  5 territory, the lake which is marked where the 'F' is,  6 and I am going to mark that with a 'Q' .  7 THE COURT:  All right.  8 THE WITNESS:  And there is some trout in this lake, but they are  9 pretty small.  10 MS. MANDELL:  11 Q   That's the Sam Goosley Lake?  12 A   Sam Goosley Lake.  13 Q   And I'll mark that with an 'R'.  14 Do you know, with respect to the two lakes, not the  15 Sam Goosley but the other two lakes in the territory,  16 whether or not there were drying racks which Namox  17 ancestors used to dry trout there?  18 A   In this top part, northern part, Tsee zuul ts'ak Ben,  19 I seen the site myself where they have the rack to dry  20 their trouts.  I seen it.  21 Q   Okay.  And in the southern side of the territory do  22 you know whether or not there were drying racks there  23 too?  24 A   There is a site in 'Alegh Ben Teezdlii.  They got a  25 site.  Again this -- I remember my grandfather, he was  26 going to get -- check some kind of a fish trap from  27 Sam Goosley to 'Alegh Ben.  That was in springtime.  28 When he got his -- some trout, it's only a little over  29 a hours walk from this -- between this two little  30 lake.  31 MS. MANDELL:   My Lord, the witness has indicated two points,  32 one from approximately the dark number 4 to the lake  33 where we have marked with a 'Q' .  34 THE COURT:  Uh-huh.  35 MS. MANDELL:  36 Q   Do you know whether or not Namox's ancestors took  37 dried trout out of the territory?  38 A   That's what they use going back home, going back to  39 Moricetown.  That's what they use for their food.  40 Q   Okay.  And during your lifetime how has the trout been  41 prepared for eating?  42 A   In my lifetime we fry them.  Sometimes we boil them.  43 Q   Okay.  You mentioned that there were trout in Sam  44 Goosley Lake.  Is there something special about the  45 size of the trout in Sam Goosley Lake?  46 A  Where the footprint was, has a little village there  47 and my ancestors.  And the Nuu'tsenii, they are 3299  1 coming -- go against this -- our village for our  2 territory.  And our ancestor, they were smart.  They  3 were ready for them.  And my grandfather and my father  4 telling the stories like that.  After they kill off  5 the Nuu'tsenii, they dump them behind the little  6 village.  There is a pond there.  They just dump them  7 in that pond.  That's where the creek runs into our  8 lake, that big lake.  That's how -- why the fish won't  9 grow there.  It's about that size.  10 Q   That story explains why the trout are so small in Sam  11 Goosley Lake?  12 A   Yes.  Our grandmothers, even Pat Namox, they all know  13 that.  14 Q   Do you know how long ago that rave from the Nuu'tsenii  15 is said to have occurred?  16 A   Yes, this Nuu'tsenii rave took place a long time ago.  17 We were just told about it.  And this rave took place  18 way before there was even any white man around.  19 THE COURT:  How are you spelling Nuu'tsenii please?  It's quite  20 a different word from the one we had a few days ago.  21 THE TRANSLATOR:  The number is 311.  22 THE COURT:  311?  23 THE TRANSLATOR:  Yes.  24 THE COURT:  Is this the people who come from a long way off?  25 MS. MANDELL:  You are thinking about the Oonis to d'en.  26 THE COURT:  That's something different?  27 THE TRANSLATOR:  That's something different.  2 8 MS. MANDELL:  29 Q   Perhaps the witness can help us more.  30 Do you know where the Nuu'tsenii are said to have  31 come from?  32 A   Right now we call Nuu'tsenii around Fraser Lake area,  33 and around the Fort St. James area we call Nuu'tsenii.  34 Q   In the springtime, as well as fishing for trout, did  35 the Wet'suwet'en also at that time trap for beaver?  36 A   Yes.  37 Q   And in your lifetime have you continued to trap for  38 beaver today in the springtime?  39 A   Yes, I hunt for beaver there quite often.  4 0       Q   And would you say that you would be hunting and  41 trapping for beaver regularly throughout your  42 lifetime?  43 A   Yes.  44 Q   And can you identify when the last time was when you  45 were out to trap for beaver or hunt?  46 A  A couple of years ago I went out to trap beaver in  47 that area. 3300  Okay.  And have you trapped and hunted beaver in the  Namox territory throughout your lifetime?  Yes.  When you were a boy, can you tell us approximately  when the season for trapping and hunting beaver would  begin and would end?  In my ancestors' time, even my father's time, I  remember them still trapping beaver right up 'til  June, but right now, ever since Fish and Wildlife,  they are going to only allow to trap beaver up to May  24th.  Okay.  Do you have the map of Namox's territory in  front of you?  Yes.  Could you indicate where the places are on Namox's  territory where there is good beaver trapping and  hunting?  Okay.  This creek, Neenlii Wek'ut, you go all the way  through to the lake.  There is beaver along the lake  all the way down to the other boundary.  There is a  big meadow right here.  There is beaver there all the  way through.  And there is some beaver dams along the  lake here.  Even just a little bit of a creek you will  see beaver dams.  There is lots in there.  Just for the record, the witness has indicated the  dark lines including the darkened area around Sam  Goosley Lake running from approximately Neenlii Wek'ut  down to the junction of Allin -- the Allin Creek in  the eastern side of the boundary.  Okay.  And that top part, northern part from this area here,  Tseezuul ts'ak Ben, you go right up to this fork here.  This creek runs down this way.  And there is another  creek runs in from the north, goes into this creek  here which runs into this Buck Creek.  There used to  be a lot of beaver along this area, but now there is a  road right along this Taan deet taa begh we call this.  There is poachers there.  Now there is hardly any  beaver along this road.  39 THE TRANSLATOR:  321.  4 0 MS. MANDELL:  41 Q   So your evidence is that there used to be beaver along  42 this creek here; is that correct?  43 A   Yes.  44 Q   And moving into the Allin Creek -- the Klo Creek.  45 A   Klo, yes.  That's why this Klo -- where the waters  46 meets this --  47 THE COURT:  Klo is not marked on the map, is it?  1  Q  2  3  A  4  Q  5  6  7  A  8  9  10  11  12  Q  13  14  A  15  Q  16  17  18  A  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  Q  26  27  28  29  30  A  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38 1  MS.  2  3  THE  4  MS.  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  THE  12  MS.  13  14  15  16  THE  17  MS.  18  19  20  21  22  THE  23  MS.  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  MS.  42  43  44  THE  45  MS.  46  47  MS.  3301  MANDELL:  It's marked on the under -- it's an English name.  It's approximately in the centre of the territory.  COURT: Oh, yes.  Thank you.  MANDELL:  Q   My Lord, I have indicated with a maroon pencil the  creek which has been identified by the witness as one  where there used to be a lot of beaver, but now that  the road is there, there's not, and it's marked with  a -- the creek is identified in purple with the word  beaver across it.  COURT:  Right.  And where is it in relation to Klo?  MANDELL:  If you will, it's above it.  The creek which has  been marked as a beaver creek meets the -- meets Klo  Creek at approximately the place where we've marked  the letter 'H'.  COURT:  Yes.  MANDELL:  And it's the creek that then moves directly north  outside to the boundary of the territory on the  northern side, and then follows to the lake where  we've marked both a 5 and a circle and an 'F' in  black.  COURT:  Yes.  MANDELL:  Q   Have you personally trapped for beaver on Namox  territory at the place which we have now identified on  the map as a good beaver trapping place?  A   Yes.  Q   When you would be -- when you were on the territory  with your father, did your father and yourself and  your brother stay on the northern end of the territory  to trap beaver, or did you sometimes come into the  southern part of the territory?  A  My first trip with my father for beaver season, we  went through here and hardly any beavers that year,  that time.  It was 1937.  I was 13 years old that  time.  That's the time we went through here, went  through creek going up, and then we go down along  Allin Creek.  And that's Niss Tsee diizdlee Kwe.  He  caught one here -- C'el t'aat Wec'oo I will call this  place.  MANDELL:  The witness is indicating along the eastern  boundary.  You will see there is a creek which has  been darkened with a fork structure.  COURT:  Yes.  MANDELL:  That's a creek that he identifies that his  father's caught a beaver.  MANDELL: 3302  1 Q   Are there beaver in that creek?  2 A   Yes, the beaver right along this creek here.  Still  3 there is lots there now.  4 Q   I am going to indicate that --  5 A   Right along the line there.  6 Q   I am going to indicate that with an 'S'.  7 A   C'el t'aat Wec'oo we'll call it.  8 Q   Okay.  I'm sorry, you were halfway down the territory.  9 A   Oh.  There is still beaver -- there is still beaver  10 right along here.  Even right up to this -- right up  11 to this point here right along the creek.  12 THE COURT:  I'm sorry, where is your 'S' please?  13 MS. MANDELL:  Oh, it's right there.  14 THE WITNESS:  Beaver is right along here, all the way down  15 there.  16 MS. MANDELL:  17 Q   Okay.  So then the beaver is from the spot where we've  18 marked 'S' along the creek into the area which has  19 already been identified as good beaver territory at  20 approximately Niss Tsee diizdlee Kwe.  21 A   Niss Tsee diizdlee Kwe.  Be right along this creek  22 too, up to this point.  23 Q   Okay.  Would your father and you and your brother then  24 ever trap beaver in the Goosley, the southern Sam  25 Goosley part of the territory?  26 A   Yes, we trapped there lots of time.  27 Q   Okay.  And when you were trapping beaver, who would  28 you trap beaver with at that time of your life?  2 9 A   I remember moving -- walking down this creek from this  30 cabin, me and my grandfather, June month.  That's the  31 time he showed me how to trap beaver.  That was 1935.  32 Q   The witness is indicating the area immediately to the  33 west of the place which we've marked as number 4 on  34 the map.  When you trap beaver, what do you use for  35 bait?  36 A   Beaver castor.  37 Q   And what is beaver castor?  38 A  Wet'suwet'en word for that is C'izogh C'e liin.  In  39 English it's called beaver castor, and it's the  40 insides of the beaver.  And when they use that for --  41 and the beaver would be attracted to it because it  42 would be the scent of another beaver, and they would  43 attack it, and that's how they attract them to.  And  44 that's when they come to the trap.  45 MS. MANDELL:   Just get the Wet'suwet'en word.  46 THE TRANSLATOR:  C'izogh, Ci-z-o-g-h, and C'e liin, C'e  47 1-i-i-n. 3303  1 MS. MANDELL:  2 Q   And is beaver castor still used as bait today by you  3 to trap the beaver?  4 A   Yes.  5 MS. MANDELL:  My Lord, this probably isn't a bad time to break.  6 THE COURT:  All right.  Thank you.  We'll adjourn then 'til 10  7 o'clock tomorrow morning.  8 THE REGISTRAR:  Order in court.  9  10 (PROCEEDINGS ADJOURNED TO FEBRUARY 10, 198 8 AT  11 10:00 A.M.)  12  13 I HEREBY CERTIFY THE FOREGOING TO  14 BE A TRUE AND ACCURATE TRANSCRIPT  15 OF THE PROCEEDINGS HEREIN TO THE  16 BEST OF MY SKILL AND ABILITY.  17  18  19 LORI OXLEY  2 0 OFFICIAL REPORTER  21 UNITED REPORTING SERVICE LTD.  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47


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