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Delgamuukw Trial Transcripts

[Proceedings of the Supreme Court of British Columbia 1988-03-11] British Columbia. Supreme Court Mar 11, 1988

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 4464  1 Vancouver, B.C.  2 March 11, 1988  3  4 (PROCEEDINGS RECONVENED AT 10:00 a.m.)  5  6 THE REGISTRAR:  Order in court.  In the Supreme Court of British  7 Columbia, this Friday, the 11th day of March, 1988. On  8 Delgamuukw versus Her Majesty the Queen at bar, My  9 Lord.  10 THE COURT:  Mr. Macaulay.  11 MR. MACKENZIE:  Excuse me.  12 THE REGISTRAR:  Caution the witness, you are still under oath.  13 MR. MACKENZIE:  My Lord, just before Mr. Macaulay starts, I have  14 Exhibit 345 which we said we would give copies  15 yesterday, and they are marked and they should be  16 inserted at plaintiffs' Volume 2, tab 11.  17 THE COURT:  Thank you.  18 MR. MACKENZIE:  Beg your pardon, Province defendant's Volume 2  19 at tab 11.  Exhibit 345, Volume 2, tab 11  2 0 THE COURT:  Thank you.  Mr. Macaulay.  21  22 CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR. MACAULAY (cont'd):  Witness, are you familiar with the Gitksan  Wet'suwet'en Government Commission?  Yes.  Do your duties involve working with that commission?  Yes.  And when was that commission set up?  That was set up about -- probably three years ago.  About three years ago?  Yeah.  And is it still going?  Yes.  And that commission consists of eight tribal councils?  No.  It doesn't?  No tribal councils.  Sorry, band councils, quite right.  Yes.  Eight band councils?  Yes.  That is Moricetown, Hagwilget, Kispiox, Hazelton,  Kitsegukla, Kitwanga, Glenvowell and Kitwancool?  Yes.  And did the chief counsellors of those eight bands  meet together to carry on that government commission's  business?  23  Q  24  25  A  26  Q  27  A  28  Q  29  A  30  Q  31  A  32  Q  33  A  34  Q  35  A  36  Q  37  A  38  Q  39  A  40  Q  41  A  42  Q  43  44  A  45  Q  46  47 1  A  2  Q  3  A  4  Q  5  A  6  Q  7  A  8  Q  9  10  11  A  12  Q  13  14  A  15  Q  16  17  18  A  19  Q  20  21  A  22  Q  23  24  25  26  A  2 7 MR.  GRANT  28  2 9 MR.  MACAU  30 THE  COURT  31  32 MR.  GRANT  33 MR.  MACAU  34  Q  35  36  37  A  38  Q  39  A  40  Q  41  42  43  44  A  45  Q  46  A  47  Q  4465  Yes.  And you attend as band manager, do you?  Yes.  And the other band managers attend?  Yes.  Not all of the time.  Sometimes?  Yes.  Yeah.  And the government, the Gitksan Wet'suwet'en  Government Commission meets with officials of the  Department of Indian Affairs?  Yes.  And the purpose of the commission is to take over from  Indian Affairs, certain government functions?  Yes.  It's -- is it essentially taking over planning  functions that used to be or are now performed by  Indian Affairs?  Yes.  And it has to do with capital development and that  kind of thing?  Yes.  And the idea is when you do have any kind of capital  development in the future, the planning for it will be  done by the commission and not by some civil servant,  is that right?  That's right.  :  Well, it's -- the horse is out of the barn door, My  Lord, I'm not going to object.  LAY:  I don't know which particular horse.  :  Well, nor do I, but Mr. Grant is apparently not  obj ecting.  :  No, I'm not objecting.  LAY:  And of course, that will involve the commission  administering funds for quite a variety of the  projects; is that how you understand it?  They will be.  They will be when it's set up?  Yes.  Yeah.  And one of the proposals is that the  commission, that is the eight band councils will be  dealing directly with treasury board on certain  matters?  Yes.  That is treasury board in Ottawa?  Yes.  Has -- have the capital projects that will be taken 4466  1 over by this -- by the government commission, by the  2 Gitksan Wet'suwet'en Government Commission, have they  3 been identified at all, the kind of project that they  4 will take over, do the planning for, and deal with  5 treasury board for?  6 A   Could you ask the question?  7 Q   Well, has -- as a result of discussions between  8 Department of Indian Affairs and the commission which  9 consists of the eight band councils, has there been  10 any -- either agreement or understanding about what  11 kind of project the government commission will handle?  12 A  Well, like the capital projects is one of the things  13 that will be handled through the government  14 commission.  15 Q   Would this sawmill development, for instance, would  16 that qualify as a capital project?  17 MR. GRANT:  Which one, the Hagwilget?  18 MR. MACAULAY:  19 Q   The Hagwilget, the one we've heard about, the one that  20 is sitting on the Bulkley River at the moment on hold?  21 A   I am not too sure because that's under economic  22 development.  23 Q   That's under?  24 A   Economic development.  25 Q   Economic development?  26 A   Yes.  27 Q   I see.  Can you give me an example of a capital  28 project?  29 A  Well, one that I can think of right off is the sewer  30 projects that's going on.  31 Q   Yes?  32 A  And those are done in different phases, like phase  33 one, phase two and phase three, depending on how much  34 money it's going to cost.  And sewer and water and  35 also the housing is under capital.  36 Q   Okay.  Now, going back in time quite a few years, or  37 quite a long time before our lifetimes, had you heard  38 either at a feast hall or from the elders about the  39 circumstances under which the Wet'suwet'en came up to  40 Hagwilget to live?  41 A   Circumstances?  One of the things that I did hear was  42 there had been a rock slide that had cut off their  43 supply --  44 Q   Right?  45 A   -- of fish, and so they would come to Hagwilget to do  46 their fishing.  47 Q   And before that time, Hagwilget was a Gitksan village, 4467  1 was it, that's your understanding of it, what you  2 heard from the elders or the feast?  3 A   Yes.  4 Q   And there are still some Gitksan living at Hagwilget?  5 A   Yes.  6 Q   Including yourself?  7 A   Yes.  8 Q   And in fact Hagwilget is in a -- in Gitksan territory,  9 in the territory of Spookw?  10 A   Territory of Spookw, yes.  11 Q   Had you heard at the feast about any differences, that  12 is disputes between the Wet'suwet'en people and the  13 Gitksan people of Hagwilget concerning who had the  14 right to the fishery at Hagwilget?  15 A   No.  16 MR. GRANT:  Would my friend clarify what is he meaning, one side  17 of the canyon or both sides or what specifically,  18 please.  19 MR. MACAULAY:  Well —  20 MR. GRANT:  There has been extensive evidence of different  21 people, that's why I wonder if he would clarify or  22 break up his question.  23 MR. MACAULAY:  The — today, the left-hand side of the river,  24 that is -- I think you -- is it facing upstream you  25 call it left and right?  Downstream, I think.  I think downstream.  I think looking downstream.  2 9 MR. MACAULAY:  30 Q   That must be it.  Okay, you look downstream towards --  31 as the Bulkley flows into the Skeena, on the left-hand  32 side, there is a village where the great majority are  33 Wet'suwet'en; is that right?  34 A   On the left-hand side?  35 Q   Or is it the right-hand side in which -- is there one  36 side that is Wet'suwet'en and another -- the other  37 side that's Gitksan?  38 A   I didn't realize there was a Gitksan side and  39 Wet'suwet'en side.  There is Gitksan and Wet'suwet'en  40 living on Hagwilget.  41 Q   But they are all in together, are they?  42 A   Yes.  43 Q   And the fishing places, the fishing sites in the  44 Hagwilget Canyon, do both fish on both sides of the  45 canyon, the left and the right side?  46 MR. GRANT:  You mean before the rock?  4 7 MR. MACAULAY:  2 6 MR. GRANT  2 7 THE COURT  2 8 MR. GRANT 1  Q  2  3  A  4  5  Q  6  7  A  8  Q  9  A  10  11  12  13  14  Q  15  A  16  Q  17  A  18  Q  19  A  20  Q  21  A  22  Q  23  24  A  25  26  Q  27  28  29  30  31  A  32  Q  33  34  35  36  37  A  38  Q  39  A  40  Q  41  A  42  Q  43  44  A  45  Q  46  A  47  Q  4468  Well, did they before the rock or now, if anybody  does?  Gitksan and Wet'suwet'en?  Both fished on the east  side.  On the east side.  And nobody finished on the west  side?  Yes, they did.  Both also?  I can't remember because sometimes they would change,  you know, they would point at one another and go like  this and they would change side. I don't know. It's  quite steep hills to climb, but that's what I used to  see them do.  You never did any fishing yourself in the canyon?  No, but I was down there quite a bit.  Helping the fishermen?  Yes.  Mainly my uncle.  And which side did he fish on?  Both sides.  On both sides?  Yes.  And did he have a fishing site that belonged to Spookw  on each side of the river, on both sides?  He never told me that this is the fishing site of  Spookw, he just fished there.  Yeah.  And I take it you had never heard in the feast  hall at an earlier time, earlier in the century, that  there had been any dispute between the Gitksan people  and the Wet'suwet'en people about who had the right to  fish on either side of the canyon?  No.  I never -- I have never heard that.  Mr. Mackenzie, counsel for the British Columbia -- for  the Attorney General of British Columbia, asked you  some questions about trapping around Seeley Lake.  Do  you remember those questions and you gave a few  answers?  Um-hmm.  You know Olive Ryan, don't you?  Yes.  And her daughter who is a hereditary chief, Joan?  Yes, Joan.  And of course Joan Ryan is the head of the tribal  council?  Yes.  And they are all in the house of Hanamuxw?  Yes.  In fact Joan Ryan is Hanamuxw? 1  A  2  Q  3  4  5  6  A  7  Q  8  9  10  A  11  12  13  14  Q  15  16  17  A  18  Q  19  20  21  22  A  23  Q  24  A  25  Q  26  A  27  28  Q  29  A  30  Q  31  A  32  Q  33  A  34  Q  35  A  36  Q  37  A  38  39  Q  40  A  41  Q  42  A  43  Q  44  45  46  A  47  Q  4469  Yes.  And you had never heard either from them or this --  the feast hall, that they had any trapping rights  around Seeley Lake or that part of Spookw's territory,  the western Spookw territory?  No, I haven't.  And are trapping rights the kind of thing that you  normally hear in the feast hall that are discussed in  the feast?  I've never heard it put in words of trapping rights.  I've only heard about the territory, that trapping and  hunting on the territory, but I never, you know, heard  it called trapping rights like that.  And you had never heard in the feast hall that any  member of Hanamuxw's house was trapping in Spookw's  territory?  No, I didn't.  I personally didn't.  In your house and Spookw's house, apart from the head  chief Mr. Steve Robinson, who is the senior chief, or  is there such a thing as a chief who ranks next to the  head chief?  Well there is a sub chief I guess you call him.  Sub chief.  Who is that?  The people who are sitting next to him.  You mean there is more than one sub chief?  Well there -- like the mothers are right next to the  people who have the names, head names.  Well, Steve Robinson has a name, of course?  Um-hmm.  He is Spookw?  Um-hmm.  Your mother has a name?  Um-hmm.  And she is a chief?  It's not a chief name.  Oh, it's not a chief name?  Yes.  It's a big name to us because it's a spiritual  name.  But it's a personal name?  Yes.  All right, okay.  It's a name with -- that belongs to us.  Well there is a difference, isn't there, between a  chief name and a -- what you've just described as a  spiritual name?  Yes.  And chief names are held by -- in your house by how 1  2  A  3  4  5  Q  6  A  7  Q  8  A  9  Q  10  A  11  A  12  Q  13  A  14  Q  15  A  16  17  Q  18  19  A  20  Q  21  22  A  23  Q  24  A  25  26  Q  27  28  29  30  31  A  32  33  Q  34  A  35  Q  36  A  37  Q  38  39  A  40  Q  41  42  A  43  Q  44  45  A  46  Q  47  A  4470  many people, how many chief names are there, today?  Well, there is the chief who is the head -- the head  chief and then there is -- there are the ones that sit  right next to him.  And who are they?  Like my brother.  Your brother?  Yes.  And my son.  He has a chief's name?  Yes.  And how about you, have you got a chief's name?  Yes.  Yes.  And anyone else with a chief's name in Spookw?  That's as far as I can go.  The others I can't say  they are chief names.  No.  And a number of other people have personal or  spiritual names including your mother?  They are names that belong to the house, yes.  Yes.  And what are there, six or seven people in  the —  There is quite a number that have names.  Quite a number but not everybody?  Not everybody.  They are still working, they are the  workers.  And in Spookw's house, are there noble families and  families that are not noble?  I'm using European terms  now, of course.  Are there -- are there families that  are traditionally the people who will become the  chiefs, and other families who very seldom do?  Well, the way the names come down it's usually the  person who is closely related to the chief --  Yeah.  -- who has died that is in line for the name.  You belong to such a family, don't you?  Yes.  And when you normally -- in normal circumstances when  there is a chief, a head chief --  Um-hmm.  -- his sister's children are looked on as the group  from whom the successor will come?  That's right.  All right.  And was your mother closely related to the  former chief?  To Johnson Alexander.  Johnson Alexander?  Yes. 1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31 THE  32  33  34  35 THE  36  37 THE  38  39 THE  4 0 MR.  4471  Q   Was she his sister?  A   She was -- oh, I'm talking about my grandmother.  My  grandmother was Johnson Alexander's first cousin.  Q   All right.  Was she his closest female relative or did  he have any sisters?  A   He had sisters, yes.  Q   And did those sisters have children?  A   Yes.  Q   So in the old days, at least, those children would  have been the group from which you would expect to --  A   That's right.  Q   -- have the next chief?  A   That's right.  Q   But that -- that didn't happen?  A   Um-hmm.  Q   In that case?  A   Um-hmm.  Q   And you've told us that the one who everybody thought  would be chief was too ill?  A   Um-hmm.  And he has since passed away.  Q   And he passed away?  A   Yeah.  Q   Was there anybody -- anyone else in his group?  Did he  have any brothers or sisters who might also qualify?  No.  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  COURT  That person who was ill?  No.  The sisters also passed away.  Oh, his sisters died?  The -- Bill Walters' sisters also passed away.  Yes, I see.  Sorry, "his sisters", you mean the sisters of the  young man who was thought to be in line but who  couldn't take it because he was ill?  A   Yes.  COURT:  It was his sisters who had died?  A   Yes.  COURT:  His name was Bill Walters?  A   Yes.  COURT:  Yes, thank you.  MACAULAY:  That was the heir apparent, My Lord, as I  understand it.  THE COURT:  Yes, that's right.  GRANT:  I don't think that terminology has been adopted, of  course, by the witness.  MACAULAY:  Q   No.  Again, I'm using the European term.  That's as I  47 understand it, that's the sense of the evidence.  I'm  41  42  4 3 MR.  44  4 5 MR.  46 1  2  3  4  5  6  A  7  Q  8  9  10  A  11  Q  12  13  A  14  Q  15  16  17  18  19  A  20  Q  21  A  22  Q  23  24  25  26  A  27  Q  28  29  A  30  Q  31  32  33  A  34  Q  35  A  36  Q  37  38  39  A  40  Q  41  A  42  Q  43  44  45  46  A  47  Q  4472  not inflicting those terms on the witness.  And because of your lineage, you are the -- you  are among the comparatively small group of people who  can expect -- who might expect to be chief one day,  head chief?  Yes.  Is that right?  Now, your house has been in contact  with whites, Europeans, for almost a hundred years; is  that your understanding --  Um-hmm.  -- of it?  History tells us that the Collins Overland  Telegraph came over that way in 1866?  Um-hmm.  And perhaps a few fur traders before that.  And since  then, there has been a lot more travel by members of  the house of Spookw than there was before 1866,  because there were railroads and fishing on the coast  and things like that?  Um-hmm.  Do you agree with that?  Um-hmm.  And even before the white man came, the members of the  house of Spookw met every year with Tsimshian and  Nishga to trade, is that your understanding of what  you've heard?  Um-hmm, yes.  And in fact Hagwilget -- Hagwilget was a trading  centre, wasn't it?  I guess you can call it that.  And have you ever heard in the feast that ladies from  the house of Spookw had married Tsimshian or Nishga  and had gone to live on the coast?  No.  You never heard that?  No.  And people from Hagwilget, perhaps including members  of the house of Spookw, started going to the coast to  do commercial fishing almost a hundred years ago?  I don't know about that.  You don't know whether that's true or not?  No.  But you know from your experience that many Gitksan, a  very large number of Gitksan have been going to the  coast to Port Essington and to various places near  there?  Yes.  For a long time, every season? 4473  1 A   Yes.  2 Q   Yeah.  And in fact, many Gitksan have -- I shouldn't  3 say many, some Gitksan have stayed on the coast and  4 established their homes at or near Prince Rupert?  5 A   Trying to think if I know.  6 Q   Well Joan Ryan is one, isn't she?  7 A   She works there, eh.  8 Q   And lives there?  9 A   Yes.  10 Q   Yes?  11 A   But I see her quite a bit.  12 Q   Oh, yeah.  But her home isn't in Kitsegukla, it's in  13 Prince Rupert?  14 A   You know, even though we live in different places  15 there is always just one home for us.  It doesn't  16 matter where we travel in our lifetime, our home is  17 where we were born and we have a deep attachment for  18 that.  I know that myself.  19 Q   Well, you were born in your own territory, weren't  20 you?  21 A   Yes.  22 Q   But not every Gitksan was born in his or her own  23 territory?  24 A   I guess not.  25 Q   Some were born in Prince George and some were born in  26 other places?  27 A   They still know where they are from.  28 Q   Oh, yeah.  There was no record kept from the end of  29 the last century to -- up till say 1975, of where all  30 those people who had gone away were, or were still  31 living there, there's no written record?  32 MR. GRANT:  My Lord, I object to this question because I would  33 suggest that inadvertently my friend may have misled  34 himself.  But my understanding is that there were  35 extensive census records kept by the Babine Agency and  36 by the other agencies of Indian Affairs.  In other  37 words, by the federal defendant themselves of the very  38 fact of people of these areas.  In fact, we had  39 endeavoured over two years ago to get one, one of  40 these censuses, but it was not accessible and it was  41 not disclosed at that time.  So I think that my friend  42 may be misleading himself and the witness in this  43 question.  44 MR. MACAULAY:  Well there wasn't — that wasn't my question.  45 I'm talking about the members of the house of Spookw.  4 6 THE COURT:  Yes.  47 MR. MACAULAY:  Not the census takers. 4474  1 THE COURT:  Yes.  Keeping their own records.  2 MR. MACAULAY:  Pardon?  3 THE COURT:  Keeping their own records.  4 MR. MACAULAY:  Yes.  5 MR. GRANT:  Yes, that's a different question as I understand it.  6 THE COURT:  All right.  7 MR. MACAULAY:  8 Q   Nobody in your house kept a record, a written record  9 from 1880 up till 1975, of where people went, when  10 they left the traditional territory to go and live  11 somewhere else?  12 A   Not a written record, no.  13 Q   No.  And it depends entirely on what people can  14 remember, what the elders can remember, doesn't it,  15 for any information in your house before 1975?  16 A   Yes.  17 Q   I don't know if I have to explain this, My Lord, but  18 the census material that my friend is referring to,  19 there are laws dealing with when they can be released  20 to us or to him or to anybody else, and we are both  21 subject to those same laws.  And it's true that he  22 asked for a census record that is not available to  23 anyone.  24 And when did you retain or hire a researcher to  25 determine just how many members of the house of Spookw  26 and of other houses that there were around -- around  27 the world?  2 8 A   I haven't hired anybody.  29 Q   But somebody has been hired, you mentioned that in  30 your earlier evidence?  31 A   I think the chiefs as a group.  32 Q   Chiefs as a group?  33 A   Yes.  34 Q   The tribal council hired somebody?  35 A   Yes.  36 Q   Right.  Somebody called a genealogist?  37 A   Um-hmm.  38 Q   And that person has been working for a few years now,  39 to your knowledge?  40 A   Yes.  41 Q   And how many years has the genealogist been working?  42 A   Pardon me?  43 Q   How many years has that genealogist been working on  44 developing family trees and genealogies of the various  45 houses?  46 A   I can't remember exactly when she started, but I know  47 it's a few years. 1  Q  2  A  3  4  Q  5  A  6 MR.  GRANT  7 MR.  MACAU  8  Q  9  A  10  11  12  Q  13  14  15  A  16  Q  17  18  A  19  Q  20  A  21  Q  22  A  23  Q  24  A  25  Q  26  A  27  Q  28  A  29  Q  30  A  31 THE  COURT  32  A  33 MR.  MACAU  34  Q  35  A  36  Q  37  A  38  Q  39  40  A  41  Q  42  A  43  Q  44  45  A  46  Q  47  4475  About five years, six years?  I don't know.  I can't remember how long she has been  there.  But the work isn't finished, is it?  It's never finished.  :  With respect to their house?  LAY:  With respect to Spookw?  Well, we as -- on our own are doing a lot of that.  That's how she gets her information is the work we do  of ourselves.  She gets -- so far as the house of Spookw is  concerned, she gets her information from members of  the house of Spookw?  And any people who are connected to us.  Yes.  But if a lady from the house of Spookw left the  territory in 1910 and went to live in Calgary --  Um-hmm.  -- it's not likely anyone will remember now?  Oh, yes.  Is that right?  Yes.  Yes?  Sure.  All right.  What house does Robert Robinson belong to?  I think he belongs to the house of Yagosip.  Yagosip?  Um-hmm.  Has he a seat in the house of Spookw at the feast?  I have never seen him sitting at our table.  :  Sorry, you have never?  I've never seen him sitting at our table.  LAY:  And he had another brother, Perry?  Yes.  And what house did he belong to?  He would belong to the house of Yagosip?  Yagosip.  And did you ever see him sit at your table  at the feast?  No.  Perry?  And they are both brothers of Steve Robinson?  That's right.  To your knowledge, does Yagosip have its own  territory?  Yes.  But you don't know anything about that territory,  anything in detail about that territory? 4476  1 A   No.  2 Q   You've seen the map and you've seen where it is?  3 A   Yes.  4 Q   And that territory is separate from the territory of  5 Spookw?  6 A   Yes.  7 Q   Could the witness be shown Exhibit 116, My Lord.  8 That's for identification, My Lord.  This is an  9 Exhibit 116 for identification.  10 THE COURT:  Yes.  11 MR. MACAULAY:  12 Q   And I can't recall putting it in for identification,  13 one of my colleagues must have.  14 Yes.  First, Mrs. Wilson-Kenni, can you read that.  15 And have you ever seen a copy of that document before,  16 that resolution?  17 A   No.  This is the first time I've seen it.  18 Q   Yes.  It bears the name -- the typed name Steve  19 Robinson, you see that there?  20 A   Yes.  21 Q   Yeah.  And he's identified on this document as Chief  22 Spaak, S-P-A-A-K.  I assume we are dealing with the  23 same chief of your house?  24 MR. GRANT:  And Chief Medigmgyet.  2 5 MR. MACAULAY:  26 Q   Yes, I guess he appears in both capacities.  Did you  27 ever hear in the feast or from the elders or from the  28 chief himself, your head chief, about this resolution  29 that we are looking at?  30 A   I wasn't at any feast where this was brought up, I'm  31 afraid.  32 Q   This resolution deals with important matters, doesn't  33 it?  34 A   Yes, it is.  35 Q   And it's the custom if not the law of the Gitksan that  36 chiefs of a house, sub chiefs if you want to call it  37 that, should be consulted by the head chief about  38 important matters?  39 A   Yes.  40 Q   Were you a chief in the house of Spookw in April of  41 1975?  42 A   I was in the house of Gisdaywa at that time.  43 Q   You didn't have a name in the house of Spookw?  44 A   No.  It's in the fall of that year that I received my  45 name of Yaga'lahl, 1975.  46 Q   Why were you in the house of Gisdaywa instead of the  47 house of Spookw? 4477  1 A   Because I was adopted into the house of Gisdaywa and  2 an arrangement that was made by my grandmother and  3 Mahleeh of the house of Gisdaywa.  Because of the  4 house being so small and we helped each other out in  5 the feast.  6 Q   And they are the same clan?  7 A   Same clan, yes.  8 Q   So you didn't become -- you didn't attend feasts as a  9 member of the house of Spookw until the fall of 1975?  10 A   Yes.  11 Q   But you attended many feasts before that at which both  12 houses were present, members -- the chiefs of both  13 houses were present?  14 A   Yes.  15 Q   And we have your evidence that you had never heard of  16 the matters set out in this resolution till today?  17 A   Could have been in a feast that I wasn't at.  18 Q   Oh, yes.  19 MR. GRANT:  The evidence was -- you asked whether it was at a  20 feast she heard it being discussed.  21 MR. MACAULAY:  Well I'm grateful for my friend for that.  22 THE COURT:  Your friend has difficulty restraining his  23 enthusiasm to be helpful.  24 MR. GRANT:  I'm very retrained this morning, My Lord.  Mr.  25 Macaulay has been very gentle.  2 6 MR. MACAULAY:  27       Q   Did you hear about this resolution outside the feast?  2 8       A   No.  29 Q   When I showed it to you now, is this the first time  30 you've seen that document?  31 A   Yes.  32 Q   That's it, we don't need that exhibit anymore.  Thank  33 you.  34 THE COURT:  May I see that, please.  35 MR. GRANT:  Just for my own clarification, My Lord, I take it  36 this is a federal document from the large embossed  37 numbers on that.  That's Exhibit 116; is that right?  3 8 MR. MACAULAY:  Well, it's a document on our — yes it's on  39 our -- we disclosed it.  40 MR. GRANT:  No, I appreciate that.  I just wasn't sure where the  41 document itself came from, My Lord, and I wanted to be  42 sure.  43 THE COURT:  Well it says at the very top, it says, "Received by  44 B. Hartley and P.F. Girard at meeting with Nishga  45 Tribal Council on May 1st, 1975."  46 MR. GRANT:  Yes.  I just — I've got no problem with that, I  47 just wanted to be clear whether it came from the 4478  1 federal, provincial or the plaintiff's documents, but  2 it appears it came from the federal documents --  3 MR. MACAULAY:  That's our numbering.  4 MR. GRANT:  -- from the large numbering system.  5 MR. MACAULAY:  That's our number.  6 MR. GRANT:  I wasn't present when it was introduced, My Lord.  7 THE COURT:  Thank you.  8 MR. MACAULAY:  Nor was I, at that time.  Is it your understanding from what you've heard at  the feast -- at feasts or from talking to the elders,  that in the old days, before the white people came to  Spookw's territory, there was a Gitksan law dealing  with trespass on traplines.  Have you heard that?  Trespass on territories.  On territories, all right, territories.  And that law  involved giving a warning or a couple of warnings?  Yes.  And then if the warnings were ignored, the trespasser  was killed?  Yes.  Is that right?  Yes.  And in those circumstances, no compensation was  payable to the trespasser's family?  Yes.  All right.  There were -- it was also the Gitksan law  that if there was a homicide, a killing in other  circumstances, that the person or house responsible  had to offer compensation to the house of the victim;  is that right?  Yes.  And there was another alternative, and that is, if the  members of the house of the victim, if they weren't  offered compensation or didn't accept compensation,  were entitled to take their revenge by killing the  person responsible; is that right?  Yes.  Yeah.  But in your lifetime, that law has never been  observed, those laws, those particular laws?  Not that I know of.  No.  And matters of trespass and of homicide are dealt  with in a different way now?  What do you mean?  Well, if somebody runs over a member of the house of  Spookw and that person dies, you phone the police now,  don't you?  9  Q  10  11  12  13  14  15  A  16  Q  17  18  A  19  Q  20  21  A  22  Q  23  A  24  Q  25  26  A  27  Q  28  29  30  31  32  A  33  Q  34  35  36  37  38  A  39  Q  40  41  A  42  Q  43  44  A  45  Q  46  47 1  A  2  Q  3  4  5  6  A  7  Q  8  9  10  11  A  12  Q  13  A  14  Q  15  16  17  A  18  Q  19  A  20  Q  21  22  23  24  A  25  Q  26  A  27  Q  28  29  30  A  31  Q  32  33  A  34  35  36  Q  37  A  38  Q  39  A  40  Q  41  A  42  Q  43  A  44  Q  45  A  46  Q  47  4479  Yes.  Yeah.  And in the -- under the -- in the old days when  the laws I just referred to were in effect, it was the  head chief who administered those laws and saw to it  that they were carried out?  Yes.  Does the band council in -- at Hagwilget have anything  to do with the education, the primary education of the  children in the Village of Hagwilget, that is the  grade school level?  Band council?  Yes?  Yes.  What does it do about -- what connection has it got to  the primary education up to grade eight of the  children at Hagwilget?  Well, just administers the funds.  There isn't a school board as such, is there?  No.  And those funds, are they going to be -- is it the  intention of the government commission, the Gitksan  Wet'suwet'en Government Commission to take over that  function?  No.  No.  That will stay as it is, will it?  Yes.  Does the band council deal with the principal of the  school or schools, primary schools on any matters  other than funding?  Yes.  Does it discuss curriculum, for instance, with the  principal of the primary schools?  The band council itself doesn't, but it -- it's got  people on staff that do that.  Like in our case, the  education co-ordinator.  The band council staff has an education co-ordinator?  Yes.  Who is that at the moment?  Carol Eichstedt.  And does she belong to a house?  Yes.  Which house does she belong to?  House of Amagyet.  Amagyet?  Yes.  And she has the responsibility of dealing with the  school principal on matters of -- amongst other THE  THE  9 THE  10 MR.  11 THE  12 MR.  13 THE  14 THE  15 THE  16  17 THE  18 MR.  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  4 3 MR.  44  45  4 6 THE  4 7 MR.  A  Q  COURT:  A  COURT:  A  COURT  GRANT  COURT  GRANT  COURT  4480  things, the curriculum?  Yes.  Yeah.  Sorry, Carol's last name was Einstein?  Eichstedt.  Oh.  Do you know how to spell that?  E-I-C -- can I have a pencil.  I can write it, it's  hard to spell.  And the house was?  Amagyet, A-M-A —  It's not a plaintiff house.  It's a house that's represented.  A-M?  TRANSLATOR:  A-M-A-G-Y-E-T.  COURT:  Thank you.  A   E-I-C-H-S-T-E-D-T.  COURT:  Thank you.  MACAULAY:  Q   And is she a full time employee of the band council?  A   Yes.  How many other full time employees are there?  Five.  And what do they do?  They are -- there is Carol who is the education  co-ordinator, then there is the social services  worker, then there is the community of health  representative, she is the C.H.R..  C.H.R. meaning child?  Community health representative.  Community.  The pre-school -- the pre-school teacher and myself.  And you are the senior member?  Yes.  And one of your functions is to supervise that?  That's right.  They report to you?  Yes.  Are they all members of houses, either Gitksan or  Wet'suwet'en houses these -- the ones -- these others  that you've named that you've mentioned?  All of them except one.  Yes.  My Lord, Amagyet is represented by Wii elaast,  W-I-I, E-L-A-A-S-T, and referred to in paragraph 49  (b) of the Statement of Claim.  Thank you.  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  GRANT:  COURT:  MACAULAY: 1  Q  2  3  4  5  A  6  Q  7  A  8  Q  9  10  A  11  Q  12  A  13  Q  14  15  A  16  Q  17  A  18  Q  19  20  A  21  22  23  24  Q  25  26  A  27  28  29  Q  30  31  32  A  33  Q  34  35  36  A  37  Q  38  39  A  40  Q  41  A  42  Q  43  A  44  Q  45  A  46  Q  47  A  4481  There has been mention of the Cheslatta people earlier  in your evidence.  You were asked that by somebody  about them.  Do you know who they are, the Cheslatta  people?  I have an idea who they are.  Have you ever met them?  But I don't know them personally, no.  They -- they live well south of Moricetown, don't  they?  Yes.  Around the Whitesail Lake.  Do they live around there?  Yes.  Yeah.  And they have some reserves around in that  vicinity?  Yes.  Are they Wet'suwet'en or do you not know that?  I'm not sure if they are.  All right.  They came, some Cheslatta people came to  the All Clan Feasts, did they?  I don't know.  I don't know if they look any different  than we do.  I just seen bunch of people there and I  don't know, you know, by looking at them where they  are from.  I just know they are up from that way.  Did anyone identify them -- himself or herself as a  member of a Cheslatta band?  The speakers when they were speaking identified  themselves, but I can't remember who it was that was  speaking for them, right now.  Do you know whether the Cheslatta people belong to  the -- these are the members of the Cheslatta band, do  they belong to the Carrier Sekani Tribal Council?  I think so, yes.  Is there a programme at Hagwilget regarding care for  the elderly, that is old people who have difficulty  looking after themselves?  It's under social services.  And is there a member of your staff that has a  responsibility for tending to that?  Yes.  Social services.  Social services.  Do you know Victor Robinson?  Yes.  Is he related to Chief Steve Robinson?  His son.  His son?  Yes.  And of course he is in a different house --  Yes. 4482  -- is he?  But he is a Gitksan?  Yes.  Did you -- now Victor Robinson was a Superintendent of  Lands, Revenue and Trusts with the Department of  Indian Affairs at one time?  Yes.  And then he became a district manager, the District  Manager of Hazelton?  Yes.  And before him, Simon Muldoe occupied a senior  position with Indian Affairs before he was --  Yes.  -- before he was manager; is that right?  Yes.  And Simon Muldoe is a Gitksan?  Yes.  And he is of the Gitanmaax band, Simon Muldoe, is he?  Yes.  And do you know his house, Simon Muldoe?  I know it but I can't remember it right now.  Is he -- is he a chief, Simon Muldoe, of one of the  houses.  He has passed away.  I beg your pardon?  He passed away.  Oh, I'm sorry.  Was he a chief?  Did you see him at  the feast in an important place?  I saw him at the feast but I don't know -- I don't  think he was chief.  Is Victor Robinson a chief?  No.  Do you see him at the feast?  Sometimes, yes.  Sometimes.  35 THE COURT:  He is now the District Manager in Hazelton?  36 A   No.  37 MR. MACAULAY:  Beg your pardon, was.  3 8 THE COURT:  Was.  3 9 MR. MACAULAY:  40 Q   He is now -- well, he went to Terrace, didn't he?  41 A   He went to Terrace, yes, from Hazelton.  42 Q   From Hazelton.  43 THE COURT:  Now Terrace with Indian Affairs or —  44 A   Yes.  4 5 MR. MACAULAY:  46 Q   I'm not suggesting that the witness would know all the  47 details of his career, but probably she knew that --  1  Q  2  A  3  Q  4  5  6  A  7  Q  8  9  A  10  Q  11  12  A  13  Q  14  A  15  Q  16  A  17  Q  18  A  19  Q  20  A  21  Q  22  23  A  24  Q  25  A  26  Q  27  28  A  29  30  Q  31  A  32  Q  33  A  34  Q 1  2  3  4  5  A  6  Q  7  8  9  10  A  11  Q  12  13  14  15  A  16  17  18  Q  19  20  A  21  22  Q  23  A  24  25  26  27  Q  28  29  A  30  Q  31  A  32  Q  33  A  34  Q  35  36  37  38  A  39  Q  40  A  41  Q  42  43  44  45  A  46  47  Q  4483  indeed she does know that he was in Terrace.  Do you remember when you were giving evidence and  responding to questions by Mr. Grant, you were dealing  with your feast book, a feast that was held in 1987?  Um-hmm.  And in the feast book -- we've seen other feast books,  Mrs. McKenzie had a feast book we looked at, but in  your feast book there were notes about personal debts.  Do you remember those?  Yes.  Now I can tell you that none of the other feast books  that we've -- or I should say I haven't seen in any of  the other feast books that have been put in evidence,  notes of that kind about personal debts.  Well that's my own.  I considered that my own personal  property, I didn't know it was going to be here for  the whole world to see.  No, I see.  It's not usual to put a note like that in  a feast book, is it?  Well if it's my own book I can write anything I want  in there.  Oh, well, yes.  And I didn't want to forget those two because there  are so many things to deal with in a feast and I  didn't want to forget that, and so I put their name on  the bottom of the page.  But the payment wasn't made out of money collected for  the feast?  No.  It was your own?  No.  Out of my own pocket.  Right.  Me and my brother.  Talking about payments, sometimes -- my instructions  are that sometimes when a person dies that money is  provided from that person's estate for their funeral  expenses?  Yes.  Have you heard of that kind of arrangement?  Yes.  Yeah.  Is that normal, is it within the system, the  Gitksan feast system, that the person whose funeral is  being looked after has their estate pay for some of  it?  Well, if it's their money, their money would be put  in.  It would be put in? 4484  1 A   Yes.  2 Q   Okay.  3 A  And it's mentioned as such.  4 Q   At the feast?  5 A   Yes.  6 Q   At the —  7 A   Yes.  8 Q   -- at the funeral feast, okay.  You don't have to deal  9 with estates as a member of the band --  10 A   No.  11 Q   -- council?  Who deals with estates at Hagwilget, or  12 with Hagwilget estates today?  13 A   The district office, Hazelton district.  14 Q   At Hazelton.  Did Simon Muldoe deal with estates or do  15 you not know whether he did or not?  16 A   He might have, I'm not sure.  17 Q   How about Victor Robinson, did he?  18 A   Yes.  19 Q   He did deal with estates?  20 A   Yes.  21 Q   Have you yourself had to deal with estates of members  22 of your family?  23 A   No.  24 Q   Either as an executor or administrator or --  25 A   No.  26 MR. MACAULAY:  Okay.  Those are my questions.  Thank you,  27 witness.  28 THE COURT:  All right, thank you.  How long are you going to be,  29 Mr. Grant?  30 MR. GRANT:  I estimate to be about half an hour.  31 THE COURT:  All right.  Well, there is no particular — would  32 you like to take the morning break now then?  33 MR. GRANT:  I'm prepared to start.  34 THE COURT:  All right.  Well I prefer that — it isn't serious,  35 but if you do five minutes that would be more  36 convenient.  37 MR. GRANT:  It's no difference to myself, My Lord.  38 THE COURT:  No, go ahead.  Thank you, Mr. Macaulay.  39  4 0 RE-EXAMINATION BY MR. GRANT:  41 Q   Mrs. Wilson-Kenni, Mr. Mackenzie asked you a question  42 at the beginning of his examination, and it's his  43 question at page 4266, line 15.  Actually two  44 questions there:  45  4 6 Q  "And you have spoken today about the  47 territory.  Do you have a claim to any 1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  THE  MR.  COURT:  GRANT:  Q  A  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  4485  other Gitksan territory besides that in  Spookw?  A  Say that again?  Q  Your claim is limited to the territory of  the house of Spookw; is that correct?  A  Yes."  :  What was the reference, please?  Page 4266, My Lord, lines 15 through to 21.  When Mr. Macaulay -- or Mr. Mackenzie asked you  about a claim to the territory of Spookw and you said  yes, what did you understand him to mean by "a claim  to the territory of Spookw"?  Well I thought he was talking just about the territory  of Spookw, but it's -- the way that question is put it  seems like we are only interested in one particular  little spot.  The way our system is and the way we  depend on one another and support one another, I think  there is more than interest in just in our own  personal territory.  Like, for instance, I have  mentioned already the different houses that we helped  in the feast and the different houses that helped us  in the feast.  So what happens to those territories is  of concern to all of the chiefs and concern of all of  the houses.  Well, in this claim, in this court action, the chiefs  are claiming ownership and jurisdiction.  Did you  understand in your answer to that question, were you  referring to ownership of the territory of Spookw,  jurisdiction of the territory of Spookw, or both?  Both.  Do you have an ownership or jurisdiction claim -- do  you have an ownership claim to any other territory  besides Spookw?  No.  Do you have a jurisdictional claim to any other  territory besides Spookw?  Yes.  I think that is what I meant earlier.  Can you explain what the nature of the jurisdictional  claim to those territories other than Spookw is?  Well, it's the connection that we have with other --  with the other houses and clans.  It's — well, like  you see our connection with, for instance, with  Gisdaywa, you know, who is Wet'suwet'en, and then with  our own house.  And then I've also spoken of Kliiyem  lax haa and also of Gyolugyet, and you also hear 1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  4486  from -- from Tenimghet, you know.  All of these are  sort of interrelated, there is -- you can see that we  are all interested in one another's territory because  of the way our system is.  MR. GRANT:  Did you get those names, Mr. Mitchell, from the  list?  Do you need those names?  THE COURT:  I've got them, I think.  THE TRANSLATOR:  What was the first one before Gyolugyet?  THE COURT:  Sorry, I don't know that I do.  I have Gisdaywa,  Kliiyem lax haa and Gyolugyet.  Was there a fourth  one?  GRANT:  Tenimghet I believe she said as well.  COURT:  I didn't get that one, sorry.  GRANT:  What's the number of Tenimghet?  MR.  THE  MR.  THE  MR.  THE  MR.  THE  THE  TRANSLATOR:  Sixty-two on the plaintiffs' list.  GRANT  COURT  GRANT  COURT  Sixty-two on the plaintiffs' list, Your Honour.  Thank you.  I wonder if this might be -- I'm in the middle of a  question and it might be appropriate now to take the  break.  All right.  REGISTRAR:  Order in court.  Court will recess.  (PROCEEDINGS ADJOURNED AT 11:15 a.m.)  I hereby certify the foregoing to be  a true and accurate transcript of the  proceedings herein transcribed to the  best of my skill and ability  Toni Kerekes,  O.R., R.P.R.  United Reporting Service Ltd.  (PROCEEDINGS RESUMED AT 11:30)  Dora Wilson-Kenni, resumed:  THE COURT:  Mr. Grant.  RE-EXAMINATION BY MR. GRANT:  Q    Mrs. Wilson-Kenni, you were asked a series of  questions about the district lot 1062, I believe it  is, which you indicated in your evidence in 1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18 MR.  19 THE  2 0 MR.  21  22  23 THE  24  25  26  27  28  2 9 MR.  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  MR.  THE  4487  cross-examination.  And I am referring to page 4270,  lines 31 through to 40 -- through to 37, My Lord.  And  I will read you the questions and answers.  "Q   Oh, I beg your pardon.  Lax see'l,  yes.  Now, did you seek permission  from Walter Wilson, who is Djogaslee,  to purchase that property on lot 1062?  A   No, I didn't.  I thought that was  Spookw's territory.  I didn't realize  my mistake, like I said, until I  looked at the map and saw 1062 in that  area there."  Now, on realizing your mistake, under Gitksan law  what is the appropriate thing for you to do regarding  the district lot 1062?  MACKENZIE:  I object to that question, My Lord.  COURT:  On what basis?  MACKENZIE:  Well, My Lord, my friend is raising a question  of Gitksan law now and that doesn't arise out of the  question.  COURT:  Oh, I think the question arises out of the evidence  about the acquisition of the property shown in the  certificate of title which was introduced into the  defense.  Yes, My Lord.  You may pursue the matter.  GRANT  COURT  GRANT  Q  A  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  Thank you, My Lord.  Well, I feel that now I have to deal with Djogaslee  and that has to be done in a feast.  The evidence -- the tab number indicates that there  is a certificate of title and it is registered in the  land title office.  Why did you register that land in  the land title office?  Why did you use the land title  system, in other words, for that property?  Well, I didn't do that.  My husband did that.  Okay.  But did he register it in the land title  office with your knowledge?  Yes.  And did you agree that that was appropriate in the  circumstances of this law to register in the land  title office?  Yes.  Why did you agree that was the appropriate way of  dealing with it? 1  A  2  3  4  5  6  7  Q  8  A  9  MR.  GRANT  10  11  12  THE  COURT  13  MR.  GRANT  14  THE  COURT  15  MR.  GRANT  16  Q  17  18  A  19  Q  20  21  22  23  24  25  A  26  Q  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  A  37  Q  38  39  40  41  A  42  43  44  45  46  47  MR.  GRANT  4488  Well, we have to think about the way that we are  forced to deal with it.  Otherwise, you know, at the  time I thought it was in Spookw's territory.  And if I  didn't get it that person would, you know, Gething  would have sold it to a non-Indian person.  I feel now  that it is back to the right people.  Is Gething a Gitksan or Wet'suwet'en person?  No, he is non-Indian.  I refer you document book number 1. This is defense  document book, tab 5 and it refers to Exhibit 82 and I  refer you to page 17.  17?  No, page 17 of document book 1, tab 5.  That's fine.  This is where you were referred to statements made  by your mother, Mrs. Margaret Austin?  Yes.  And also I wish to deal with two points at once.  Mr. Macaulay raised this with you as well about your  mother's name Saaniilen.  But in reference to this  document, I refer you to about the ninth line from the  bottom of Margaret Austin's statement where it starts:  "And then I got Saaniilen."  Yes.  "It is just my nickname name (she laughs).  I still use it in the feast.  And that's  how Charlie's father dreamed about me.  I  just told you how I am always sick and  that's how he dreamed about me standing  there looking at the sun.  I was talking to  the sun and that's how he foresaw it."  Now, you were present when your mother said this at  the feast?  Yes.  You've described the name today as a spiritual name,  Mr. Macaulay has described it as a personal name and  your mother referred to it here as a nickname name.  Can you explain for the court what Saaniilen is?  Saaniilen, first of all, it is looking at the moon.  It says sun here and it is not the sun, it is the  moon.  And this was the reason I call it a spiritual  name is because of the way that the name came to her  during healing process by Diiyenii.  Diiyenii is the  same as Haalyat in Gitksan.  :  Do you have a number for that or a spelling? 4489  1 THE TRANSLATOR:  288.  2 MR. GRANT:  288?  3 THE TRANSLATOR:  D and E.  4 MR. GRANT:  5 Q    I'm sorry, Mrs. Wilson-Kenni, proceed.  6 A   And it was during this healing process that this  7 vision came to Diiyenii.  And he felt strongly about  8 it that, as she said, he had this vision of her  9 looking at the moon and talking to the moon.  And  10 after this healing process when she got better, he  11 felt that she should take that as a name because this  12 was in this vision that was very strong.  And that is  13 how she got the name in the feast.  14 Q    Now, there was a reference by Mr. Macaulay that it  15 was a personal name.  When your mother passes on, will  16 this name be given to someone else?  17 A    Yes.  18 Q    In which house?  19 A    In the house of Spookw.  And it would be explained  20 how it came to her, how she got it.  21 Q    Now, when she said:  "It is just my nickname" and  22 laughed, can you explain that in the context of what  23 she was talking about?  24 A    I don't know why she said that because I don't know  25 what she meant by nickname.  And I think what I felt  26 at the time was that she didn't consider it a chief  27 name because, like I said just before, just because a  28 person has a name doesn't mean that they are a chief.  29 And like a lot of names in ancient days came from  30 visions where they were helped in unusual ways.  Like,  31 for instance, if they were in danger or something like  32 this and a vision of something like, for instance, an  33 animal or an animal doing something or even like, for  34 instance, a bird, well they adopted those names.  They  35 adopted those as names.  And this is similar to that.  36 It is not nickname the way you use nicknames.  I think  37 she just -- it is just the way she used it, it isn't  38 right.  39 Q    I gather there was some levity in these proceedings,  40 it wasn't all stone cold serious?  41 A    That's right.  42 Q    People laughed and joked as well?  43 A    That's right.  There was a bit of tension in a feast  44 like this sometimes.  45 Q    And it is released by joking?  46 A    That's right.  Sometimes people, you know, will say  47 something to break that tension. 1  Q  2  3  4  5  A  6  7  8  Q  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  A  23  Q  24  A  25  Q  26  27  28  29  A  30  Q  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  A  39  Q  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  A  4490  You're quoted in this statement as well.  When you  made the statements at this feast, did you anticipate  that your statements would be transcribed and be put  before the court in the case?  No, I didn't realize that that was going to happen.  And as a matter of fact, I was quite annoyed about it  when I saw it here.  On page 4275 you were asked -- I quote page 4275, 11  through to 18.  "Q   There was a midwife at your birth and  also at Louise Sebastian's birth?  A   Yes.  Q   And at the present time there is a  hospital at Hazelton, isn't there?  A   Yes.  Q   And it is Wrinch Memorial Hospital?  A   Yes."  Was the Wrinch Memorial Hospital present at the time  of your birth and Louise Sebastian's birth?  Yes.  I would like you to refer to book 1, tab 19.  Book what?  That's the correct one.  This is the excerpt from  the Ksan collection.  And I would like you to refer to  the second page where it says:  "Ksan, breath of our  Grandfathers."  Do you see that?  Yes.  Now, my friend put some statements to you in the  first sentence.  He left out the second sentence and I  ask you to read the second sentence which states:  "It stands where Indian villages have stood  for thousands of years."  Do you agree with that statement?  Yes.  And then the last statement was -- just a moment.  "The community is a focal point of an  exciting re-emergence of the cultures of  northwest coast Indian peoples."  Do you agree with that statement that it is a  re-emergence of the cultures?  Well, that's not -- THE COURT  GRANT  COURT  GRANT  1 MR  2  3  4  5  6  7 MR.  8 THE  9 MR.  10  11 MR.  12  13  14 THE  15  16  17  18 MR.  19 MR.  20  21  22  23 THE  24  25  2 6 MR.  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34 THE  35 MR.  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  4491  MACKENZIE:  My Lord, that's the exact question that I asked  the witness and she answered it.  What else can be  learned from repeating my question?  Only if it is an introductory question for something  else.  If it is, it is permissible and if it isn't, it  is not re-examination.  I'm sorry, My Lord?  Only if it is an introduction to something else.  Yes, My Lord, it is.  It is an introduction to  something else.  MACKENZIE:  Well, then, My Lord, the question has already  been asked and answered and perhaps my friend can go  on to the next subject.  COURT:  That is logically true but the law has never been  logical, Mr. Mackenzie.  We always let people repeat  themselves at least three or four times in order to  set the context.  MACKENZIE:  Yes, My Lord.  GRANT:  Yes, go ahead.  Well, I think I did mention that the word  re-emergence I didn't like in here because --  Well, we know that, Mrs. Wilson-Kenni.  You have  already told us that you don't agree with that word.  Mr. Grant has another question for you.  The question and answer were at page 4280.  And it  is at line 11:  "Q   And the next passage I want to direct  your attention to is the last  sentence, 'The community is a focal  point of --  Q  A  COURT:  GRANT:  COURT:  GRANT:  Q  A  .an exciting".  ... an exciting re-emergence of the  cultures of the northwest coast  peoples.'  Can you agree with that  statement?  I don't know why they put  re-emergence, because the culture  has always been strong there.  Maybe  it's -- well, that word isn't, to me,  the right word, re-emergence, because  the culture was always strong there."  Do you know what the context  first of all, do you 4492  1 know who the author of this booklet was?  2 A    No.  3 Q    And the context of the preparation from the time you  4 were at Ksan?  5 A    No, I don't know who did this.  6 Q    On page 4284 you were asked:  7  8 "Q   Now, Mrs. Wilson-Kenni, you're a  9 member of the Roman Catholic Church?  10 A   Pardon me?  11 Q   Are you a member of the Roman Catholic  12 Church?  13 A   Yes.  14 Q   And were you married in a church?  15 A   Yes.  16 Q   And were your children baptized in the  17 Roman Catholic Church?  18 A   Yes."  19  20 Mrs. Wilson-Kenni, do you still hold spiritual  21 beliefs of a Gitksan person?  22 A    Yes.  23 Q    Can you explain that in the context of those  24 answers?  25 A    Well, the beliefs so much similar to what the  26 missionaries were coming in with.  Like, you know, we  27 already had a word, you know, for the God that they  28 were talking about.  We just didn't call him God.  He  29 was a higher being, Hudagghi.  So I think that's why  30 it was easy for them to listen to what was being said  31 about God because it was already similar to what we  32 were practicing, except that it didn't say that we  33 weren't supposed to speak our own language or anything  34 like that which is what later on happened, that was  35 wrong.  36 THE TRANSLATOR:  281.  37 MR. GRANT:  38 Q    281 was the word.  I believe that was a Wet'suwet'en  39 word for God?  4 0 A    Hudagghi.  41 Q    And when you say that you maintain those spiritual  42 beliefs today, do you practice your Gitksan spiritual  43 beliefs today?  44 A   Above anything else that I may be and what you see  45 in front of you, I am a Gitksan person.  I was born  46 one.  I will always be one.  I am proud of what I am.  47 I always will be proud of what I am.  That feeling is 4493  1 strong in me.  The feeling is strong in my family, in  2 my daughter, my brother, everyone that is related to  3 me.  And I am proud of what I am and nobody is going  4 to take that away from me.  5 THE COURT:  Mrs. Wilson-Kenni, is there a Gitksan word for  6 higher being?  7 A    Hudagghi.  8 THE COURT:  The same as the Wet'suwet'en word?  9 A    The Gitksan word?  10 THE COURT:  Mr. Grant said 281 is a Wet'suwet'en word.  Is there  11 an equivalent Gitksan word or do they use the same  12 word?  13 A    Yes, there is, but I can't think of it right now.  14 There is a word for it.  15 THE COURT:  Thank you.  16 MR. GRANT:  17 Q    My friend asked you some questions about hunting  18 permits and sustenance permits and showed you a number  19 of documents at tab 1 -- you don't have to bother  20 looking at that document book -- where there are  21 permits for Hagwilget people, sustenance permits in  22 the years 1981, 1982 and 1986.  Did the percentage of  23 hunters from your village who hunted out of season  24 without permits increase or decrease in the period of  25 time between 1981 and the present?  26 A    I don't know that they decreased or increased, I  27 just know that they went out and hunted when they  2 8           wanted to.  29 Q    Just so you understand the question, it is a long  30 one.  You say they went out and hunted when they  31 wanted to and Mr. Mackenzie has shown you documents of  32 people with sustenance permits?  33 A    Mh'm.  34 Q    Did the use of sustenance permits by those who were  35 hunting from Hagwilget increase or decrease between  36 1980 and the present?  37 A    I don't think there is that many using the permits.  38 It is just that they get hassled so much with the  39 games people that they --  40 MR. MACKENZIE:  I object to this evidence, My Lord.  This is  41 clearly hearsay evidence.  42 THE COURT:  Well, it is not really re-examination, is it, Mr. —  43 MR. GRANT:  The use of sustenance permits was first raised on  44 cross.  45 MR. MACKENZIE:  I don't agree to that, My Lord.  4 6 THE COURT:  It seems to me you dealt fully with hunting in your  47 evidence in chief, did you not? 1  MR.  GRANT  2  3  THE  COURT  4  5  6  7  MR.  GRANT  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  THE  COURT  17  MR.  GRANT  18  19  THE  COURT  20  MR.  GRANT  21  THE  COURT  22  MR.  GRANT  23  THE  COURT  24  25  MR.  GRANT  26  27  THE  COURT  28  29  MR.  GRANT  30  THE  COURT  31  32  33  34  MR.  GRANT  35  THE  COURT  36  37  MR.  GRANT  38  THE  COURT  39  MR.  GRANT  40  THE  COURT  41  42  MR.  GRANT  43  44  45  THE  COURT  46  MR.  GRANT  47  4494  Yes, hunting. The sustenance permits weren't dealt  with at all.  Well, it seems to me she is answering as to hunting  and not sustenance permits.  She said they hunted when  they wanted to hunt.  And that's what she said before  I think in chief and in cross-examination.  I am not going to pursue that point, My Lord.  I just want to make a note, My Lord, at this  point going through the transcript, I would request  that the entry on tab 1 of the plaintiff's documents,  the exhibit on page 7 in the bottom right-hand  corner -- the witness doesn't need the exhibit for  this purpose -- but if Abraham Wilson-Kenni there be a  slash put through the exhibit.  And I refer to page  492.  What document?  I'm sorry, My Lord, the genealogy, tab 1 of the  plaintiff's documents.  Oh, the plaintiff's.  Yes.  On page 7, the bottom right-hand corner.  Yes.  Abraham Wilson-Kenni at the very bottom there?  Yes.  It has already been struck out as he was  adopted.  The slash should be put through the exhibit.  I  don't know if it was done.  I had it done already.  Somebody asked me to do it  earlier.  Fine.  I didn't know if it had been done.  Mr. Grant, I don't want to be critical, but the good  people that are preparing your books for you, while  these plastic folders are very nice, it makes it  impossible to make notes.  On the documents?  On the document.  I would be happy if they were  omitted for this kind of document.  For a document such as the genealogy?  Yes.  It is an effort of protection.  I have managed to get under the plastic covering and  I have already drawn a line under there.  Thank you, My Lord. I refer you to page 4302. And  I would like to just read from Interrogatory 18, this  is of Steve Robinson's interrogatory.  Tab 7?  Well, actually, My Lord, I don't think it is in my  friend's exhibit book.  Number 18 is the answer I wish 1  2  3 MR.  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  12 THE  13 MR.  14 THE  15  16 MR.  17  16  THE  19 MR.  2 0 THE  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  MR.  4495  to read to the witness and I am going to read to the  witness.  MACKENZIE:  I am going to object to that.  Any use of that  interrogatory I am going to object to it.  You will  recall, My Lord, that Mr. Grant was wanting me to read  this in for some reason.  He was helping me with my  cross-examination, as he did throughout, and he asked  me to read it in.  And your Lordship will recall that  I declined to read it in or use it, so I am going to  object to him even referring to this interrogatory, My  Lord.  COURT:  What —  GRANT:  Just a moment, My Lord.  COURT:  What is it that permits you to put in your client's  interrogatory answer, Mr. Grant?  GRANT:  What happened, My Lord it is on page 4302 and  4303 --  COURT:  What day was that?  GRANT:  That was on March 8th, Volume 69.  COURT:  Yes.  GRANT:  Actually it starts at 4301, My Lord, and it ends up  with the court's comment:  'MR  MR.  MR.  THE  MR.  THE  MR.  THE  GRANT: If Mr. Mackenzie wishes to put  that to him, I think Mr. Mackenzie  should also put to the witness the  answer to paragraph -- to question  18 in which Mr. Robinson  describes who his mother is and  where she is from.  MACKENZIE: Oh, yes, I'm pleased to do  that. I thought we'd established  that, My Lord, but I'm pleased to  do that.  GRANT:  That's the answer to question  18 of the interrogatory, the third  paragraph refers to the mother.  COURT:  Well, what you really want is  interrogatory 27, is it?  MACKENZIE:  That's correct, My Lord.  COURT:  Now, you're going to put number  18.  MACKENZIE:  Well, My Lord, in my  submission they don't -- they're  not related, but I don't have any  objection to reading it.  COURT:  Well,it — 4496  1 MR. GRANT:  Well, he describes who his  2 mother is and where she came  3 from."  4  5 This is after the sequence where there is a  6 statement from 27.  It is at 4301, line 27 where the  7 quote is:  8 "I belong to the Wilp because my mother is  9 a member of the house."  10  11 And then line 13:  12  13 "MR. GRANT:  Well, he describes  14 who his mother is and where she  15 came from.  16 THE COURT:  But this is not discovery, this  17 is cross-examination, but Mr.  18 Mackenzie's going to read it  19 anyway he says.  20 MR. MACKENZIE:  21 Q   Mrs. Wilson-Kenni, let me ask you a  22 question before you start reading that,  23 if I may.  You've agreed with me that  24 Steve Robinson's mother was Molly  25 Robinson; is that correct?  26 A   Yes.  27 Q   Yes.  And she was a member of the Lax  28 gibuu clan?  29 A   Yes.  30 Q   Yes.  You don't know her house?  31 A   No.  32 Q   No.  And the interrogatory number 18  33 doesn't indicate what Molly  34 Robinson's house is?  You're reading  35 interrogatory 18?  36 A   18?  37 MR. MACKENZIE:  Well, My Lord, I don't wish to  38 put interrogatory 18 to Mrs.  39 Wilson-Kenni.  I don't think it's  40 related and I think that Mrs.  41 Wilson-Kenni has agreed with the  42 questions that relate to that  43 interrogatory anyway.  44 MR. GRANT:  Well, what it does say, My Lord,  45 interrogatory 18 gives the name, the  46 Gitksan name of Mrs.  Robinson, which  47 my friend has avoided putting to the 1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21 THE  22  23  24  25  2 6 MR.  27 THE  28  2 9 MR.  30 THE  31 MR.  32 THE  33 MR.  34 THE  35 THE  36  MR.  4497  witness, and the witness said she  hadn't had an opportunity to review  this interrogatory, and it was part  of the answer about who his mother  was.  That's the reason why I said it  was directly related to what he was  asking.  THE COURT:  Well, I don't think — the rule  that things are related, or connected  as the word is used, in  relation to  some other parts of this doesn't  apply here.  I don't think Mr.  Mackenzie has to put it to the  witness.  It may be a matter for  re-examination.  Shall we take the  afternoon adjournment?"  So I just want to put to the witness the name, what  was left out.  I want to put to the witness if she  knows that name.  Well, I don't think, with respect, that you can put  interrogatory 18 to the witness.  What I meant was you  may re-examine on any matter that is uncertain arising  out of the questions, the interrogatory that your  friend did put to the witness.  Okay.  I don't recall what we -- we were talking about  interrogatory 27.  GRANT:  27.  COURT:  Let me see what it says.  GRANT:  And it is on page 4300, My Lord.  COURT:  Where is interrogatory 27?  MACKENZIE:  It is in book one, tab 6, My Lord.  REGISTRAR:  With the affidavit of Steve Robinson.  COURT  GRANT  COURT  COURT:  GRANT:  COURT:  37  38  39 THE  4 0 MR.  41  42 THE COURT  43  44  45  4 6 MR  47  Yes, I have 27, all right.  What is it that you want  to ask the witness about interrogatory 27?  My Lord, what I want to ask the witness is if she  has heard this Gitksan name.  What Gitksan name?  MACKENZIE:  Well, My Lord, the question is now being asked  in front of the witness.  That's one of the problems, Mr. Grant, one of the  reasons why you can't use your own discovery and your  own interrogatory answers in re-examination.  One of  the reasons is you are obviously leading.  But with respect to my friend, I haven't put the  name.  I have been very cautious not to put the name  GRANT: 1  2  THE  COURT  3  4  MR.  GRANT  5  THE  COURT  6  7  MR.  GRANT  8  9  THE  COURT  10  MR.  GRANT  11  THE  COURT  12  13  MR.  GRANT  14  15  16  THE  COURT  17  18  MR.  GRANT  19  20  THE  COURT  21  22  23  24  25  26  MR.  GRANT  27  THE  COURT  28  MR.  GRANT  29  Q  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  A  41  42  Q  43  A  44  45  46  47  4498  to the witness until you've allowed me to.  :  What is the question that you want to ask the  witness?  :  Pardon?  :  What is the specific question you want to ask the  witness?  :  I want to ask the witness if she knows the name and  I would give the name.  What name?  The name is --  No, I'm sorry, perhaps your friend doesn't want you  to use the name.  The name of what?  There is a name referred to in interrogatory 18  which I want to ask the witness if she has heard that  name and if she knows what name that is?  It seems to me you are going beyond interrogatory  27.  You can only re-examine on interrogatory 27.  Well, my friend referred to all of the details and  agreed to put interrogatory 18.  Well, he didn't do that.  And that's one of the  beautiful things about cross-examination, we can't  strike words from the record like they can in the  United States.  But until we say it we haven't put it  and that interrogatory wasn't put to the witness so  you are limited to re-examination on interrogatory 27.  I won't press the point, My Lord.  Thank you.  On page 4315, lines 43, 44 you were asked this  question:  "Q  A  Now, you mentioned this also, hard  times you had in the old days, but at  the present time on the Hagwilget  Reserve and now you have electricity  and new homes; is that correct?  That's right."  Are there still hard times at Hagwilget today?  I think there is hard times more than just  Hagwilget, but, yes, there is.  And what are those hard times today?  Well, for one thing there is high unemployment.  And  another thing is the fact that we can't do our fishing  down there anymore.  You know, the fact that we don't  have fishing down there also means that we can't teach  our young people how to prepare fish and smoke it like 1  2  Q  3  4  5  6  7  8  A  9  Q  10  A  11  Q  12  A  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  Q  21  22  A  23  24  Q  25  A  26  Q  27  28  29  30  31  A  32  Q  33  A  34  Q  35  36  37  38  39  A  40  Q  41  42  43  44  45  46  A  47  Q  4499  we did before.  Now, in evidence yesterday in cross-examination by  Mr. Macaulay you were asked a question about Spookw  holding the name Guuhadak.  And he said "holding the  name Guuhadak."  Can you say that that is that  different than you, for example, having the name  Yaga'lahl?  Yes.  Can you --  My name is my name.  Yes.  And I am not waiting for someone to get it when I  die.  Just when I die that I am not waiting for  someone who is going to be ready to get this name.  It  is hard for me to explain it.  It is my name for my  lifetime or the only thing that I could do with it  right now is if, in a feast I choose to do so, I can  let them know who I have chosen to take my name after  I die.  And what is the difference with Steve Robinson  holding the name Guuhadak?  He has to pass that name on to someone who he feels  is worthy of it and is ready for it.  If possible before he dies?  Yes.  You were cross-examined by my friend regarding Rita  George, Ray Morice and Brian George and they were  referred to in the interrogatory, I believe it is 24,  as being in Spookw's house.  Were Rita George, Ray  Morice and Brian George born into Spookw's house?  Yes.  And they were adopted out of his house?  Yes.  You were asked by Mr. Mackenzie if band members who  live on Hagwilget Reserve, earn income on the reserve,  are they exempt from income tax.  Do the majority of  the band members who are employed work on or off  Hagwilget Reserve?  Off.  You were asked by Mr. Mackenzie about if band  members are exempt from paying sales tax for the  purchase of retail goods on reserve.  Are there any  retail outlet's like -- let me say in the nature of  grocery stores for everyday commodities on Hagwilget  Reserve?  No.  Is there any retail outlet of any sort on the 1  2  A  3  Q  4  A  5  MR.  macke:  6  THE  COURT  7  8  9  10  MR.  GRANT  11  12  Q  13  14  15  A  16  Q  17  18  19  20  21  A  22  Q  23  24  25  26  A  27  Q  28  29  30  31  A  32  THE  COURT  33  34  A  35  36  THE  COURT  37  38  A  39  40  THE  COURT  41  MR.  GRANT  42  Q  43  44  45  A  46  Q  47  A  4500  reserve?  There is just one tiny gift shop.  But it doesn't deal with everyday commodities?  No.  JZIE:  That's a leading question, My Lord.  :  Yes, it is, although the answer is implicit -- the  leading question was implicit in the answer of the  leading question.  "A tiny gift shop", that explains  it.  :  I wasn't trying to put words in the witness' mouth.  I thought she basically said that.  You were asked questions by Mr. Mackenzie about this  trapline registration and I believe it is now in your  uncle Alfred Wilson's name?  Yes.  And he showed you documents.  They are in one of  these document books.  We don't have to refer to them,  but he showed you a document indicating that it had  been transferred from Sylvester George to Alfred  Wilson, you recall that?  Yes.  And then I believe you indicated in your evidence --  I don't have the reference, My Lord.  But you  indicated in your evidence that Celia George -- this  was the area that Celia George had?  Yes.  Now, the transfer from Sylvester George to Alfred  George, is that in accordance with -- in other words,  does it agree with the Gitksan law as to who should  hold that territory?  Yes.  :  Why is that?  Why wouldn't it have gone to the  chief?  It goes back to the house of Spookw and my uncle is  a member of the house of Spookw.  :  But why would it go to your uncle instead of, for  example, to the chief?  Because it belongs to the house of Spookw which  means also the members of the house of Spookw.  :  All right.  Under Gitksan law, does a head chief or can a head  chief delegate responsibility to someone else in the  house for any specific territory?  Yes, he can.  And is that what occurred in this case?  I don't know. 1 MR.  2  3  4  5  6  7  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  MR.  MR.  THE  MR.  4501  GRANT:  This is the cross-examination of Mr. Macaulay.  I  would like to refer to the document that my friend is  going to edit, I know you don't have it.  And I am  just going to refer to some names.  And I will refer  to the page numbers and request my friend, of course  when he does the editing, to keep the same page  numbers as he referred to them as well.  And I presume  that's what he will do.  MACKENZIE:  Yes.  GRANT:  And neither the witness nor the court needs it  because I will refer to these.  I think this is  Exhibit 3 —  COURT:  That's not an exhibit at all.  GRANT:  Reserved number.  It will be reserved as Exhibit  344.  Q    Now, at page 20 of that document there is a list.  It is the Annual Report of the Gitksan Carrier Tribal  Council Association and it lists the directors.  I am  going to ask you if the following people are  hereditaryt chiefs, Victor Jim?  A    Yes.  Q    Ken Muldoe?  A    Yes.  Q    Arthur Wilson of Kispiox?  A    Yes.  Q    And over to page 21, continuing list of directors.  George Muldoe?  Yes.  Perry Sampson?  Yes.  Richard Benson?  Yes.  Steven Robinson?  Yes.  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  James Morrison?  Yes.  Alfred Joseph?  Yes.  Dora Kenni?  Yes.  Dan Michell?  Yes.  Alfred Michell?  Yes.  Of Moricetown.  Yes.  Ray Jones, Gitsegukla?  Alfred George of Telkwal 1  A  2  Q  3  A  4  Q  5  A  6  Q  7  8  9  A  10  Q  11  12  A  13  Q  14  A  15  Q  16  A  17  Q  18  A  19 THE  COURT  2 0 MR.  GRANT  21 THE  COURT  22  2 3 MR.  GRANT  24  25  26  27 THE  COURT  28  Q  29  A  30  Q  31  A  32  Q  33  A  34  Q  35  36  37  38  39  40  A  41  Q  42  43  44  45  A  46  Q  47  A  4502  Yes.  Richard Morgan of Gitwangak?  Yes.  Stanley Williams of Gitwangak?  Yes.  I would like to refer you to the annual report of  1952, pages 59 and 60 and ask if these persons are  hereditary chiefs.  William Blackwater of Kispiox?  Yes.  Ken Muldoe of Kispiox, Glen Williams of Kitwanga,  you, Richard Benson.  I can't recall, George Muldoe?  Yes.  Walter Harris?  Yes.  Dan Michell?  Yes.  Alfred Joseph?  Yes.  All of them?  Pardon?  Are the ones you read out all of the names that are  there?  :  No, I have not read out every name, but the majority  of names, My Lord.  I have read out the majority of  names.  And I am trying to avoid rereading names that  I read on the first list.  Larry Moore of Gitwangak, is he a hereditary chief?  I am not too sure.  He has a name, though.  What about Ceil Russel of Gitsegukla?  I think so, yes.  Yes?  I think so, yes.  And just for the record, I am referring to pages 59  and 60.  And it is spelled on that C-e-i-1 and that is  a typo.  I am referring to page 88 and 89 of what will  become Exhibit 344.  The following people you have  already confirmed that yourself and Glen Williams are  hereditary chiefs.  Arnold Shanoss?  I don't know about Arnold.  Okay.  You have already indicated -- I am referring  to page 90.  You have already referred to Steve  Robinson, Perry Sampson, George Muldoe, Walter Harris.  Do you know George Williams from Moricetown?  Yes.  Is he a hereditary chief?  No. 1  Q  2  A  3  Q  4  A  5  Q  6  A  7 THE  COURT  8  9 MR.  GRANT  10 THE  COURT  11  A  12 THE  COURT  13 MR.  GRANT  14  15  Q  16  17  A  18  Q  19  A  20  Q  21  A  22  Q  23  A  24  25  Q  26  27  28  29  30  31  A  32  Q  33  34  35  A  36  Q  37  38  A  39  40  Q  41  A  42  Q  43  44  45  46  47  4503  Margaret Alfred, she is not or she is?  No.  Cliffored Sampare of Gitsegukla, is he a chief?  I don't think so.  George Sampare of Gitsegukla?  He has a name, but I don't know --  :  Did you say Madeline Alfred is not a hereditary  chief?  :  No, Margaret Alfred.  :  Madeline Alfred is?  Oh, yes.  :  I thought so.  :  I would hope that that was clear for the record by  this stage, My Lord.  You have referred already to Andrew George and Larry  Moore.  Do you know Mavis Morrison of Hazelton?  Yes.  Is he is she a chief?  No.  Gary Williams of Gitwangak, do you know him?  I know him, yes.  Is he a hereditary chief, do you know?  I know he has a name, but I don't know if he is a  hereditary chief.  I am referring now to page 118 and 119 of the same  document which will be tendered.  And that is, of  course, numerical on the bottom right-hand corner.  Once again you have already referred to yourself and  Ray Jones as hereditary chiefs.  On page 119 I would  ask you is Howard Wale a hereditary chief?  Yes.  You have already referred to Glen Williams and  Alfred Joseph, Perry Sampson and George Muldoe.  Dan  Muldoe, is he a hereditary chief?  Yes.  hereditary chief?  Tommy Tait of  name, but I don't know if he is  Tommy Tait, is he  Moricetown?  I know he has got  a hereditary chief.  And Walter Harris is?  Yes.  I am referring to page 132 and 133, the 1979 Annual  Report of Gitksan-Carrier Tribal Council Assocation,  again the list of directors.  You have already  referred to Bill Blackwater and yourself as hereditary  chiefs.  I'm sorry, I am not sure if you said Bill  Blackwater, is he a hereditary chief? 1  A  2  Q  3  4  A  5  6  Q  7  8  9  10  11  12  A  13  Q  14  A  15  Q  16  17  18  19  A  20  Q  21  A  22  Q  23  A  24  Q  25  A  26  MR.  macke:  27  28  29  30  31  THE  COURT  32  33  MR.  GRANT  34  35  36  THE  COURT  37  38  39  40  41  MR.  GRANT  42  43  44  THE  COURT  45  MR.  GRANT  46  47  4504  Yes.  Going to page 133 is Gary Patsey is a hereditary  chief?  He has got a name.  I don't know if he is a  hereditary chief.  You have already referred to Glen Williams and  Alfred Joseph and Perry Sampson and George Muldoe, Ken  Russell and Dan Michell as hereditary chiefs.  Going  to page 143 and 144.  Once again you have referred to  Bill Blackwater as a hereditary chief.  Alice Jeffrey,  do you know what she holds?  She is Miluulak.  She is a plaintiff in this action?  Yes.  And going to page 144, do you know Martha -- now,  this was in 1978.  Do you know Martha Brown who lives  at Two-Mile?  I believe she may have changed her name  now?  Yes.  Mrs. Martha Ridgedale now?  Yes.  Is he a hereditary chief?  Yes.  Was she at that time in 1978?  Yes.  \FZIE:  My Lord, your Lordship doesn't have these  documents before you.  I presume your Lordship has  taken the point that Mr. Grant is not referring to all  the names, he is just picking out ones that catch his  attention.  :  He has told me in each case that the majority of the  directors are hereditary chiefs.  :  That's correct.  And I think it will be obvious that  they are not all, I just didn't want to go through  every name.  :  Is it not possible to put one question, do the  hereditary chiefs have the majority of the board of  directors since the initiation of the Tribal Council?  Isn't that really what you are trying to establish?  I  am sure that's so, isn't it?  : Well, if you are almost on the verge of taking  judicial notice, My Lord, then I may not have to  pursue it.  :  Certainly that's what the evidence is indicating.  :  Yes, it is.  There is some variation, that's all.  If it is any consolation, it will take me about two  minutes to complete, My Lord. 1  Q  2  A  3  Q  4  5  A  6  Q  7  8  9  10  11  A  12  Q  13  A  14  15  Q  16  A  17  Q  18  A  19  Q  20  21  22  23  24  A  25  Q  26  27  28  29  30  A  31  Q  32  33  34  35  A  36  Q  37  38  39  40  A  41  Q  42  43  44  45  46  47  4505  Jim Angus is a hereditary chief?  Yes.  Leonard Austin from Hagwilget, Leonard Sr., I  presume, is he a hereditary chief?  No.  Finally referring to the Articles of Incorporation  of 1978, January of 1978, page 153, My Lord.  William  Blackwater Sr. and James Angus Jr., Alice Jeffrey and  Dan Michell are all hereditary chiefs.  And Barney  Morgan, do you know Barney Morgan of Kitwanga?  Yes.  Is he a hereditary chief?  I don't know.  He has got a name, but I don't know  if he is a hereditary chief.  Elijah Turner?  Yes.  Is a hereditary chief?  Yes.  And the other names on that have already been  referred to.  Are a majority -- throughout the time  you've been involved and after, have the majority of  the board members of the Tribal Council been  hereditary chiefs?  Yes.  You described for -- Mr. Mackenzie went in detail  through the constitutional document of the Tribal  Council about the voting and the reference to the  voting.  And you described the process of selection in  your village, do you recall that evidence?  Yes.  And how they were selected.  What you described, was  that what happened in all years that you were  involved?  Is that how it actually occurred, no matter  what the document said?  Yes.  And it was alluded to and, in fact, it is in my  friend's document book, do you know if the Tribal  Council Association is in good standing today?  In  other words, was it dissolved?  As far as I know, yes.  Okay.  In questions by Mr. Macaulay yesterday to  you, you were asked about the feast of Robinson and  you said you attended and you participated.  In that  feast -- and you were asked whether that was a feast  put on by the house of Spookw.  In that feast were  you, for Robertson -- Robinson, I'm sorry.  Did you  put in Hawal as a member of the clan or did you put in 1  2  A  3  Q  4  5  6  7  A  8  9  Q  10  11  12  A  13  14  15  16  Q  17  A  18  Q  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  A  27  Q  28  29  30  31  32  33  A  34  Q  35  36  37  A  3 8 MR.  GRANT  39  4 0 THE  COURT  41  42 MR.  GRANT  43  Q  44  A  45  46  47 THE  COURT  4506  as a member of the host house?  I put in Hawal as a member of the clan.  This morning Mr. Macaulay questioned you about the  Gitksan Government Commission.  Who initiated the idea  of a Government Commission, of this Gitksan Government  Commission?  How did it come about?  Oh, that was through the Department of Indian  Affairs.  And was the creation of that Commission as far as  you know, a part of the Indian Affairs Policy, part of  Indian Affairs Policy?  Well, it was to assist them in what they call now  their devolution program where they wanted all of the  programs to be administered by the Indian people  themselves.  Was it an idea of the hereditary chiefs?  No.  You were asked about a number of projects or what  you would be involved in.  I think you referred to  capital projects.  And then you were asked about  reserves -- or I'm sorry, estates.  Who decides which  of the projects you will administer and which you will  not administer?  I'm sorry, not projects, which of the  programs that you would administer and which you won't  administer?  Could you ask that question again?  Well, Mr. Macaulay referred you to capital -- he  asked you what kinds of programs you were  administering.  And you, for example, referred to the  capital programs and you referred to sewage project.  That's a band sewer project you are referring to,  right?  Yes.  And then he referred you -- a little later on he  said who administers the estates and you said that the  district office does.  That's right.  :  Who decides which programs you will administer and  which Indian Affairs will administer?  :  When you say "you", do you mean the Government  Commission?  Yes, I'm sorry the Government Commission.  The DIA, that's one area, lands and reserves is the  only position that is going to be kept in Hazelton  district the way I understand it.  :  What is that, land? 4507  1 THE  2 THE  3 MR.  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16 MR.  17  18 MR.  19  20  21 THE  22 MR.  23 THE  2 4 MR.  2 5 MR.  2 6 MR.  27 THE  WITNESS  COURT:  GRANT:  Q  A  Q  :  Lands,  Lands.  Lands and reserves I think you said?  Yes.  And that's the department of DIA that deals with  estates?  A    That's right.  Q    You referred to Mr. Muldoe and Mr. Robinson being in  Hazelton.  And they were Indian agents or district  managers as they are now called in Hazelton?  A    Yes.  Q    Where does the district manager for your band now  reside?  A    Terrace.  GRANT:  What is your understanding of the Department's  intentions regarding --  MACAULAY:  I have to object to that, My Lord.  That is going  well beyond anything that was brought up in my  cross-examination.  Yes, I think it is, Mr. Grant.  I  2 8 MR.  2 9 THE  30  31 MR.  32 THE  33 MR.  34  35 THE  3 6 MR.  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  COURT  GRANT:  I am sure it will come out in evidence.  COURT:  I am sure it will.  GRANT:  I am not going to press it at all.  MACAULAY:  I am not saying it is inadmissible.  GRANT:  I don't know why my friend --  COURT:  It is inadmissible right now.  GRANT:  We will get to it.  COURT:  Almost everything is inadmissible in 30 seconds  unless you are nearly finished, Mr. Grant.  My Lord, I am almost finished.  How long will it take?  Five minutes.  But I think with the court's  indulgence --  No, go ahead.  You were asked a series of questions by Mr. Macaulay  about people from Hagwilget going to the coast and  that people live at the coast.  He talked about  Hanamuxw Joan Ryan.  And then -- under Gitksan law if  you leave the area for a shorter period of time or a  longer period of time over the course of your life, do  you lose your right as a member of the house due to  your absence?  A    No, no.  Q    Mr. Macaulay asked if written records were kept by  your house of members who moved if they moved at the  GRANT  COURT  GRANT  COURT:  GRANT:  Q 4508  1 turn of the century and you said not written records.  2 Is there a way that the Gitksan and Wet'suwet'en  3 people have of remembering and teaching the younger  4 people to remember such facts as people that have  5 moved out of the area?  6 A    Well, everyone is related, you know, in some way or  7 the other.  And that person that has moved away has to  8 have a relative and it is told to us.  That's the only  9 way, you know, that most of our history or all of our  10 history until the written things came in that it was  11 recorded in that way is telling us.  And this is why  12 it is, you know, taking so long to write it all down.  13 Because like I told Mr. Macaulay, you know, like for  14 instance in the genealogy there are some terms that we  15 use like brother and sister and they could be our  16 first cousins, you know.  Like our uncles and  17 grandfather, it is used differently the way you use  18 it.  And now we have to go and trace back all of these  19 things and tie it down so that you could understand  20 it.  And sometimes it is hard for us to explain it,  21 but we know what it is that we are having to deal with  22 and we are trying to deal with it.  23 Q    Mr. Macaulay asked you about Robinson, Perry  24 Robinson belonging to the house of Yagosip.  Your  25 answer was they belonged to the house of Yagosip.  Is  26 the house of Yagosip related to the house of Guuhadak  27 to your knowledge?  In other words, are they closely  28 related houses or are they distant houses?  29 A    Could you say that again?  30 Q    Is the house of Yagosip close to or distant from the  31 house of Guuhadak?  32 A    I think it is close to Guuhadak.  33 Q    Mr. Macaulay referred you to Exhibit 116 for  34 identification in these proceedings, the April 3, 1985  35 document entitled Resolution for the General Assembly  36 and asked you if this resolution was discussed in the  37 feasts to which you were present.  Around that time in  38 1975, this would be just in the -- this was in April  39 of 1975 or in the previous year 1974, 1975, were you  40 present at meetings of chiefs or feasts or involved in  41 discussions with chiefs, Gitksan or Wet'suwet'en  42 chiefs about land claims at that time formally or  43 informally?  44 A    Yes.  45 Q    And the land claims were being discussed by the  46 chiefs at that time?  47 A    Oh, yes. 1  Q  2  3  4  5  6  A  7  Q  8  A  9  Q  10  11  A  12  THE  COURT  13  14  A  15  THE  COURT  16  MR.  GRANT  17  MR.  MACAU  18  MR.  GRANT  19  Q  20  21  22  A  23  MR.  GRANT  24  25  THE  COURT  26  27  28  29  30  MR.  MACAU  31  32  MR.  GRANT  33  Q  34  35  A  36  Q  37  38  39  40  A  41  Q  42  43  44  A  45  Q  46  47  4509  Mr. Macaulay asked you this morning about if  somebody runs over a member of the house of Spookw you  phone the police now and you agreed.  If a Gitksan or  Wet'suwet'en person injuries another Gitksan or  Wet'suwet'en person, are feasts held?  Yes.  And have you attended such feasts recently?  Yes.  Mr. Macaulay asked you about the Cheslatta people.  Do you know where the Cheslatta people live?  No, I don't.  :  Well, you told me this morning you thought around  White Sand Lake.  I thought they did, I'm not too sure.  :  All right.  :  I think it was a leading question by my friend.  LAY:  I was cross-examining, My Lord.  And I would ask liberty, you said this morning about  Simon Muldoe that you couldn't recall the house that  he was in, Simon Muldoe Jr.?  I still can't remember, I'm sorry.  :  I don't know if my friend would object to me leading  on it or not.  :  I don't know if your friend wanted the answer.  And  if he does he will probably be happy to have it from  you as well as the witness, Mr. Grant, but that is up  to your learned friend.  Do you want your friend to  tell you the house of Simon Jr?  LAY:  I am always glad to hear it.  I am keen on  information from any source.  I have been informed that Simon Muldoe is from the  house of Luutkudziiwas; is that correct?  Yes.  You were asked about a social welfare problem for  the elderly in Hagwilget.  Do members of Gitksan still  look after the members of the elderly in your  community?  Yes.  You referred to Simon Muldoe and Victor Robinson as  being district managers at different times in  Hazelton?  Yes.  Were either Simon -- and when you were dealing with  this whole CPS thing that you talked about before, did  you have any dealings with Simon Muldoe or Victor 4510  1 Robinson?  2 A    No, it was regional office that was dealing with  3 that.  4 Q    And finally, you were asked this morning about the  5 payments of personal debts at the feast and you said  6 the payments came out of your pocket --  7 A    Yes.  8 Q    -- and your brother's pocket to Gwisgyen, this was  9 at the October 10th feast?  10 A    Yes.  11 Q    Now, were those payments, although they didn't come  12 out of the general pot, were they announced at the  13 feast and recognized?  14 A    Yes.  15 MR. MACAULAY:  My Lord, I object to that.  That was covered  16 fully in chief, more than fully.  17 THE COURT:  Yes, it was.  Even if it wasn't covered, it was  18 certainly opened up and therefore concluded on  19 re-examination.  20 MR. GRANT:  My Lord, I intended to stop in any event before my  21 friend's outburst.  I appreciate that Mr. Macaulay is  22 so alert.  23 THE COURT:  Thank you, Miss Wilson-Kenni, you are excused.  24 (WITNESS EXCUSED)  25 THE COURT:   All right.  I gather that we are not going to sit  26 this afternoon?  27 MR. GRANT:  I would like to keep my credits for last week for  28 the future, My Lord.  29 THE COURT:  May I inquire, will we be resuming Gitksan witnesses  30 on Monday?  31 MR. GRANT:  Yes, Madam Registrar asked me and aside from the  32 fact that there are some early exhibits from the  33 generic nature that seem to be referred to with a lot  34 of the witnesses --  35 THE COURT:  Yes.  36 MR. GRANT:  -- I believe you may have documents relating to Dan  37 Michell, Dora Wilson-Kenni.  I don't anticipate any  38 substantial reliance on those documents.  39 THE COURT:  Well, we will probably have it taken away.  I'm  40 sorry, Mr. Macaulay?  41 MR. MACAULAY:  Perhaps my friend can give us the order of  42 witnesses after Mr. Mathews who is the next witness.  43 MR. GRANT:  I'm sorry, I thought that my friend participated in  44 the discussion I had with Mr. Mackenzie concerning  45 this matter.  After Mr. Mathews will be -- will be  46 Miss Joan Ryan, Hanamuxw and after her shall be Mr.  47 James Morrison. 4511  MR.  MR.  THE  9  10  11  12  13 THE  14 MR.  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25 THE  2 6 MR.  27  2 8 MR.  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36 THE  MACAULAY:  I am grateful for that.  THE COURT  MR. GRANT  MR.  MR.  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  4 7 MR.  GRANT:  There were three witnesses.  COURT:  May I inquire how we are doing insofar as any  schedule might be concerned?  MR. GRANT:  Well, I don't know if you inquired of Mr. Rush of  this question, but I think there was some slowness in  the month of January which it took longer than was  anticipated, I think, because of a lot of translation.  But in this last three week session -- or I'm sorry  two weeks, we are halfway through.  We have not -- as  far as the plaintiffs are concerned, we have not  fallen behind schedule at all.  So things are --  COURT:  Is October still a reasonable completion date?  GRANT:  Assuming -- I believe that was on the assumption of  a month recess.  Well, once again I think the last  time this was raised we looked to our friends to see  what they were going to say in terms of their pace.  When do you think you will finish your case?  Would  you finish it when we come back from the break?  We  will have nine weeks, will we?  Yes.  I anticipate that we would be finished our  case, depending on some short decisions or questions,  possibly by the end of June.  I think that's our  objective to try and do it.  COURT:  All right.  GRANT:  And as I say, that was as a result of unanticipated  delays in evidence.  MACAULAY:  That brings up a question that I'm sure my friend  is thinking about.  There are many expert witnesses  that we are aware of, over 20.  We have a large number  of summaries.  These witnesses, their full reports are  due 60 days before they are called.  I thought that  that was a pressing matter until I have heard now that  we will be starting into the expert witnesses, I  suppose, in June.  COURT:  Or before I should think.  MACAULAY:  Or before.  GRANT:  Well, My Lord, it is uppermost in my mind, the 60  day rule.  And I think my friends can rest assured,  with respect to Mr. Macaulay's comment that we have  not only delivered summaries of some of them, the  majority of the expert reports, the full reports have  been delivered sometimes without appendices, some  with.  But generally the full reports have been  delivered with respect to summaries.  My friends have  reading material --  MACAULAY:  It is not a question of having enough to read, it 1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  MR.  MR.  THE COURT  4512  is a question of having it all.  THE COURT:  Yes.  Well, that is very helpful then.  I don't  think I have discussed this with counsel, and I don't  think I have heard mention before, that we were going  to take just a one month break in the summer, but I  may be wrong in that.  MACAULAY:  I haven't heard that.  GRANT:  I was under the impression from your comments last  June that I was operating under the assumption that  there was going to be a two month recess in the  s umme r.  I thought you said a moment ago "assuming a one  month recess"?  GRANT:  Well, I must have been mistaken.  COURT:  I wouldn't foreclose that suggestion, but I hadn't  heard it before.  MR. GRANT:  Well, there are other things, but we will raise them  after the weekend.  THE REGISTRAR:  Order in court, court will adjourned  (PROCEEDINGS ADJOURNED)  I hereby certify the foregoing to  be a true and accurate transcript  of the proceedings herein  transcribed to the best of my  skill and ability.  MR.  THE  LISA REID, OFFICIAL REPORTER  UNITED REPORTING SERVICE LTD.

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