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Delgamuukw Trial Transcripts

[Proceedings of the Supreme Court of British Columbia 1988-01-19] British Columbia. Supreme Court Jan 19, 1988

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 2796  1 Vancouver, B.C.  2 January 19, 1988  3  4 (PROCEEDINGS RESUMED PURSUANT TO ADJOURNMENT)  5  6 THE REGISTRAR:  Calling Delgamuukw against Her Majesty the  7 Queen.  8  9 MADELINE ALFRED, Resumed:  10  11 THE REGISTRAR:  Mrs. Alfred is still under oath.  12 THE COURT:  Mr. Rush.  13 MR. RUSH:  My lord, I would like to — just before Mr. Plant  14 begins his examination, I would like to make a request  15 of the court that on Friday you consider adjourning  16 the court at 12:30.  And I make this request of you  17 because there are a number of the Indian people who  18 have been down for a period of three weeks, some of  19 whom are assisting us in court and some of whom are  20 here assisting counsel, and they would like to go home  21 in an afternoon flight at I think it's 2:20 in the  22 afternoon.  2 3 THE COURT:  Yes.  24 MR. RUSH:  And they would like to have the weekend there and  25 they are considering staying -- some staying for a  26 portion of the following week and so on, others coming  27 back.  I have canvassed this with Mr. Macaulay and  28 with Mr. Plant and they don't have any objection to  29 that, and if your lordship can see agreeing to that --  30 THE COURT:  All right.  31 MR. RUSH:  -- from the court's point of view.  32 THE COURT:  You need say no more, Mr. Rush.  Having been on the  33 other side of that coin myself, I think it only  34 appropriate that I should accede your suggestion.  35 MR. RUSH:  Thank you.  36 THE COURT:  We will adjourn at 12:30 on Friday for the rest of  37 the day.  38 MR. RUSH:  Thank you.  39 THE COURT:  Thank you.  Mr. Plant?  40  41 CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR. PLANT, (Continued):  42 Q   I ask that Exhibit 134, it's tab 16 in the plaintiffs'  43 book of documents for Mrs. Alfred, be provided to Mrs.  4 4           Alfred.  45 Mrs. Alfred, I understand the name of your House  46 is Tsee K'al K'eyex, which is number 398, is that  47 correct? 2797  1  A  2  Q  3  4  A  5  6  Q  7  8  A  9  Q  10  A  11  Q  12  13  14  A  15  Q  16  17  18  A  19  Q  20  21  22  23  A  24  Q  25  26  27  A  28  29  Q  30  31  32  A  33  Q  34  35  36  37  38  A  39  Q  40  41  42 MR.  RUSH:  4 3 MR.  PLANT  44  Q  45  A  46  Q  47  Yes.  And I understand the words Tsee K'al K'eyex mean house  on a flat rock, is that correct?  Yes.  That's the name of the house on a flat rock and  that is also our name.  And the words Tsee K'al K'eyex mean house on a flat  rock?  Yes.  The word for house is Yex, Y-e-x?  Yes.  And the building where you were born which is up on  the hill on the left-hand side of Exhibit 134, that's  a house or Yex, correct?  Yes.  And the building marked with a "T" on Exhibit 134,  that building was called Tsee K'al K'eyex because it  was the house on a flat rock?  Yes.  Would I be correct to say that the people who belonged  to the House of Tsee K'al K'eyex today are the people  whose ancestors lived in or used that house, the house  marked "T"?  Yes.  Were you ever told by your parents or ancestors about  a time when chief Wah tah K'eght had a house at  Hagwilget?  I don't know.  I wasn't told about it.  This may have  been before my time.  So far as you know, then, Wah tah K'eght comes from  Moricetown and has always lived in Moricetown, is that  correct?  Yes.  I'd ask that Exhibit 131, which is tab 13 in the book  of documents, be put before the witness.  Thank you,  Mrs. Alfred.  That's all the questions I have on that  photograph.  Do you remember looking at this  photograph with Mr. Rush, Mrs. Alfred?  Yes.  And you see the building which is on the lower bench;  it has the letter "J" on it, I think you told us that  was the house of Jack Joseph?  The smokehouse.  Or the smokehouse of Jack Joseph?  Yes.  That was his -- his smokehouse.  I understand that Jack Joseph was Lucy Bazil's uncle,  do you know that to be the case? 2798  1 A   Yes.  2 Q   Do you know what his -- let me ask you this:  Was he a  3 Wet'suwet'en person or a Gitksan person?  4 A   He was Wet'suwet'en.  5 Q   My understanding is that he originally came from  6 Skeena Crossing.  Do you know that to be the case?  7 A   No.  All I've known is that he always lived there that  8 I know of.  But he was married to a woman from there.  9 Maybe that's what you mean.  10 Q   You think that Jack Joseph married a woman from Skeena  11 Crossing, is that what you say?  12 A   Yes.  He lived with a woman from Skeena Crossing who  13 was Frank -- Frank Joseph's mother.  14 Q   Was Jack Joseph Frank Joseph's father?  15 A   Yes.  16 Q   And was the mother that you spoke of, was she a  17 Gitksan?  18 A   Yes, she was G'itnee.  19 Q   G'itnee is the word that the Wet'suwet'en people use  20 for Gitksan?  21 A   Yes.  22 Q   I think G'itnee is sometimes spelled G-i-t-n-e, but I  2 3 don't know.  24 THE TRANSLATOR:  209.  2 5 MR. PLANT:  26 Q   That's G-'-i-t-n-e-e.  Did Jack Joseph -- well, let me  27 ask you this:  What clan was Jack Joseph from?  28 A   Laksilyu.  29 Q   Which house?  30 A   It the would be from -- he was Louis Tommy's brother.  31 They all come from the same House.  32 Q   You remember which House Louis Tommy came from?  33 A   Kwe Beegh Yex.  34 THE COURT:  I am sorry?  35 THE INTERPRETER:  Kwe Beegh Yex.  36 THE TRANSLATOR:  413.  37 THE COURT:  413.  Thank you.  3 8 MR. PLANT:  39 Q   Is that the House of which John Namox is presently the  40 chief?  41 A   Yes.  It always slips my mind sometimes.  42 Q   What is it that slips your mind sometimes?  43 A  Always forget the name of the Houses where they came  44 from.  45 Q   Now, on the picture, which is Exhibit 131, there is an  46 "I" on a building which was identified as being the  47 house or smokehouse of Charlie Isadore.  Do you see 2799  1  2  A  3  Q  4  5  A  6  7  Q  8  A  9  10  11  12  Q  13  14  A  15  Q  16  A  17 THE  COURT  18 MR.  PLANT  19 THE  COURT  2 0 THE  TRANS  21 MR.  PLANT  22  Q  23  24  A  25  Q  26  A  27  Q  28  A  29  Q  30  31  A  32  Q  33  34  A  35  36  Q  37  A  38  Q  39  40  41  42  A  43  44  45  Q  46  47  A  that?  Yes.  Before I ask you that, did Jack Joseph sometimes live  in the house marked "J" on that photograph?  No.  The only time they lived there is when they are  making fish there in the summertime.  Did Jack Joseph have another house in Moricetown?  They had a house out -- out on the territory where  they lived, but when they came to Moricetown his  mother had a house up above there and that's who they  used to stay with.  Now, back to Charlie Isadore.  He's a Wet'suwet'en  person or he was a Wet'suwet'en person?  Yes.  What was his clan and if you remember it, his House?  He was a descendant from Caspit.  Caspit's a House, I think, is it not?  Caspit I think is the name of the chief.  All right.  LATOR:   147.  Caspit.  Do you know Caspit to be the name which  Stanley Morris holds today?  Yes.  And did Charlie Isadore hold the name Caspit?  No.  Did he have a chief's name in Caspit's House?  No.  Are there adult people among the Wet'suwet'en who do  not have chief's names?  Yes.  Is everyone who is Wet'suwet'en eligible to obtain a  chief's name?  Most all the Wet'suwet'en nowadays hold names from  their ancestors before them.  And those names, are they all chiefly names?  Yes.  So when you say that most all the Wet'suwet'en  nowadays hold names from their ancestors before them,  do you mean that most all of the Wet'suwet'en nowadays  are chiefs?  Yes.  The chiefs with big names are the ones that, but  the younger people are just being brought up to hold  names later.  And when they hold -- when the younger people hold  names later, they will be chiefs, is that correct?  Yes.  They would be successors to the bigger chiefs 2800  1 that pass on.  2 Q   Now, some of the names in a House are not the big  3 chief names, correct?  4 A   Yes, that's right.  5 Q   But do you still consider those names to be chiefly  6 names?  7 A   Yes.  They would be considered a chiefly name, but  8 it's not a big chief name.  You are going through what  9 I have already been through yesterday.  10 Q   Yes.  I probably will go through a few more things  11 that you have already been through, one of which was a  12 place that we -- you spoke of yesterday called Trout  13 Creek?  14 A   Yeah.  The area would be S'aay k'e t'aay.  15 Q   Be what?  16 A   S'aay k'e t'aay.  17 Q   And is that the area spelled S-'-a-a-y k-'-e  18 t-a-'-a-y?  No.  I'll ask Mr. Mitchell.  19 THE TRANSLATOR:  It's the last part is t-'-a-a-y.  2 0 MR. PLANT:  21 Q   Well, let me ask you this first, Mrs. Alfred.  I  22 understand that Trout Creek is called Tl'eet kwe or  23 T-l-'-e-e-t k-w-e in Wet'suwet'en?  24 A   Yes, that's right.  That's the same creek by the area  25 there.  26 Q   And before I ask you where that area is, would you  27 agree with me that Trout Creek or Tl'eet kwe is a  28 creek that flows into the Bulkley south of Moricetown?  29 A   Yes.  30 Q   And it flows into the Bulkley on what I would call the  31 west side of the river or the village side, is that  32 correct?  33 A   Yes.  That would be on the village side.  34 Q   Now, where in relation to Trout Creek is the area that  35 you mentioned S'aay k'e t'aay?  My pronunciation is  36 probably not very good, but --.  37 A   Trout Creek is right alongside S'aay k'e t'aay and the  38 creek flows right along S'aay k'e t'aay.  39 Q   What is that area?  Is it a hill or a meadow or a  40 swamp?  Something like that?  41 A   It would -- it would be a field where people used to  42 camp there one time.  43 Q   Who used to camp there?  44 A   It would have been our ancestors who used to hunt in  45 the territory and they are the ones that taught us  46 these names.  That is why we know them.  47 Q   Is that field close to the Bulkley? 2801  1  A  2  Q  3  4  5  6  MR.  RUSH:  7  MR.  PLANT  8  Q  9  10  A  11  12  Q  13  14  15  A  16  Q  17  A  18  Q  19  A  20  MR.  PLANT  21  22  23  THE  COURT  24  MR.  PLANT  25  26  27  28  THE  COURT  29  MR.  PLANT  30  31  THE  COURT  32  MR.  PLANT  33  THE  REGIS1  34  THE  COURT  35  36  37  38  MR.  PLANT  39  Q  40  41  A  42  Q  43  44  45  A  46  Q  47  ich is part  ecently, and  , Mrs .  s in that  the place  ere your  a of this  Yes.  Now, I am going to produce a photograph wh  of a book of photographs that were taken r  I would ask you to look at that photograph  Alfred.  It's from --  Which tab please?  Tab 11 of the book.  Do you recognize what  photograph, Mrs. Alfred?  Yes.  That's where that store is.  That's  they call S'aay k'e t'aay.  So the area that you were talking about wh  ancestors used to camp, is that in the are  store?  Yes.  And that store is right by the highway?  Yes.  Just across from the Bulkley River?  Yes.  :  I'd ask that that photograph be marked a  exhibit, my lord.  I have another copy of  photographs which I propose to hand up.  :   All right.  Thank you.  :  I would -- yes.  I'd -- I may not get ar  tendering all of them through this witness  extent I'd ask your lordship to disregard  But —  :  Well, this --  :  Well, they don't have to stay in the boo  purposes of marking them.  :  Well, it's more convenient if they stay  :  Well, I am happy to do that.  Let's mark  rRAR:  It's 146.  :  146, thank you.  (EXHIBIT 146:  Photograph of store)  Has that store been there for a long time, Mrs.  Alfred?  Yes.  It's been there for some time.  As I understand it, there is a place across the river  from that store where people come to fish in the  Bulkley, white people, is that correct?  Yes.  Have white people been fishing in the Bulkley at that  location for as long as you can remember?  s the next  the book of  ound to  and to that  the others.  k for  in the book,  it. 1  A  2  Q  3  4  A  5  6  Q  7  A  8  Q  9  10  A  11  Q  12  13  14  A  15  Q  16  17  18  19  20  A  21  Q  22  23  24  A  25  26  Q  27  28  A  29  30  31  32  Q  33  A  34  35 MR.  RUSH:  3 6 MR.  PLANT  37  Q  38  A  39  40  41 MR.  PLANT  42  Q  43  44  45  A  4 6 MR.  PLANT  47  2802  No.  Do you remember how long ago white people started to  fish in that area?  I just couldn't recall the time when they first  started fishing there.  But it's been quite a few years?  Yes.  And is that area where the store is part of the  territory of Wah tah K'eght?  Yes.  To your knowledge was that store, the Trout Creek  store, built there with the permission of Wah tah  K'eght?  No.  Now, yesterday Mr. Macaulay asked you how long ago you  were last in the area and you said -- you said you  were last there before you got married.  You never  went back because of too many people in the area.  Do  you remember saying that?  Yes.  And the area that you were talking about yesterday was  the area where the Trout Creek store is today, is that  correct?  I was talking about the areas where the white people  were living.  That's what I meant.  Did those areas include the area around the Trout  Creek store?  Yes.  We used to go trapping and hunting out towards  Ta begh T'ai at the lake there.  When we travelled to  that area we used to stop off there at Trout Creek to  have lunch there.  To have lunch?  Yes.  We used to walk on foot there and we would stop  there for lunch.  Maybe we should get the name.  Ta begh T'ai, is that Toboggan Lake, No. 489?  Yes.  Ta begh T'ai is where the trail goes beside the  lake and that lake itself is called Ts'een Coo  Taaneedel.  :  I am afraid I don't have the spelling for that.  Could you say that again, please, Mrs. Alfred, or Mr.  Holland?  I mean the name of the lake which i  called by the white man Toboggan Lake.  Ts'een Coo Taaneedel.  :  There is a spelling of what appears to be the same  word on page three of Mrs. Alfred's affidavit, which 2803  1  2  3  4  5  6  THE  TRANS  7  MR.  PLANT  8  Q  9  10  A  11  THE  COURT  12  A  13  THE  COURT  14  MR.  PLANT  15  Q  16  17  A  18  19  Q  20  21  22  A  23  24  Q  25  26  A  27  28  Q  29  30  31  A  32  Q  33  34  35  36  A  37  Q  38  39  40  41  A  42  Q  43  44  45  46  A  47  THE  COURT  was marked as an exhibit earlier.  The spelling there  is T-s-'-e-e-n, new word, C-o-o, new word,  T-a-a-n-e-e-d-e-1 underlined.  And that would be on  Exhibit 120A.  Mr. Mitchell, would that be  approximately what is being said?  LATOR:  Yes.  So Ts'een Coo Taaneedel, is that the name of the lake  itself?  Yes.  That's the name.  :  Is that Toboggan Lake?  Yes.  :  Thank you.  And Ta begh T'ai, 489, is that the — that's a trail  that goes beside the lake?  Yes.  That would have been -- that would be the name  of the trail beside the lake.  Now, I understood from your evidence earlier that you  went to trap at Toboggan Lake when you were about ten  years old, is that correct?  Yes. We used to go hunting and trapping muskrats and  beaver.  Did you ever go hunting and trapping at Toboggan Lake  after you married Peter Alfred?  No. There was -- the area was all being populated by  people by that time.  Now, Toboggan Lake, as I understand it, is also on the  west side of the Bulkley south of Moricetown, is that  correct?  Yes.  It's -- it would be south of Moricetown.  And just so that we get our geography straight, there  is a river or a creek that runs out of Toboggan Lake  down into the Bulkley close to where Trout Creek flows  into the Bulkley, is that correct?  Yes.  Now, as I understand it Wah tah Kwets -- Wah tah  K'eght, rather, also claims territory north of  Moricetown on the west side of the Bulkley, is that  right?  Yes.  You were -- well, since your marriage to Peter Alfred,  have you, Mrs. Alfred, ever trapped or hunted anywhere  in Wah tah K'eght's territory on the west side of the  Bulkley?  Yes.  We've been hunting and trapping out there.  :  The witness says yes, she has? 2804  1  MR.  PLANT  2  Q  3  4  5  A  6  Q  7  A  8  9  Q  10  11  A  12  MR.  PLANT  13  THE  TRANS  14  THE  COURT  15  THE  TRANS  16  MR.  PLANT  17  Q  18  A  19  Q  20  A  21  22  Q  23  A  24  25  Q  26  A  27  28  29  MR.  PLANT  30  THE  TRANS  31  THE  COURT  32  THE  TRANS  33  MR.  RUSH:  34  MR.  PLANT  35  MR.  RUSH:  36  MR.  PLANT  37  38  THE  COURT  39  MR.  PLANT  40  THE  COURT  41  MR.  PLANT  42  Q  43  44  45  A  46  also.  47  :  Been hunting and trapping out there.  And I was just about to ask her:  Where have you been  hunting and trapping on the west side of the Bulkley  since your marriage to Peter Alfred?  Are you talking about the village side?  The village side, yes.  Yes.  I trapped on Decen gyet'ekw.  The whole area is  our territory.  Could you say the name of the place that you trapped  again, please?  Decen gyet'ekw.  :   I don't think I have a spelling for that.  LATOR:  226.  :  I'm sorry?  LATOR:  226.  Where is that in relation to Moricetown, Mrs. Alfred?  It's this side of Moricetown up towards the mountain.  Which side of Moricetown, I'm sorry?  It would be on the Moricetown side but back from there  up in the hill.  Is it a hill behind Moricetown village?  Yes.  Yes, that would be up on a hill and that would  be one end of Tsee Ggexw.  And what is -- yes, what is Tsee Ggexw?  Yes.  Tsee Ggexw -- Tsee Ggexw is -- would be a  mountain, mountain peak.  And would lean up against  that mountain, the hill is Ooniin'aay.  :   Well, I need a spelling of Tsee Ggexw.  LATOR:  Tsee Ggexw is 179.  :  179?  LATOR:  Yes.  And Ooniin'aay is 225.  No.  179 is not Tsee Ggexw.  :  Nor I think is the other one.  179 is Ts ee Ggexw C'en.  :  I have a spelling -- again, maybe Mr. Mitchell can  help me again.  What is this, for the mountain peak?  For Tsee Ggexw.  That is the mountain peak.  Which is T-s-e-e, new word G-g-e-x-w.  Now, if Mr.  Holland could pronounce Tsee Ggexw or Tsee Ggexw  again.  Would nab the correct spelling?  Tsee Ggexw is a small Tsee Ggexw and a big Tsee Ggexw  and then there is a ridge coming from that  Now, is that spelling a close approximation, Mr. 2805  1  2  THE  TRANS  3  A  4  MR.  PLANT  5  Q  6  7  8  9  A  10  Q  11  12  13  A  14  15  Q  16  17  A  18  19  Q  20  MR.  RUSH:  21  A  22  23  THE  COURT  24  MR.  PLANT  25  THE  COURT  26  MR.  PLANT  27  28  THE  COURT  29  MR.  PLANT  30  31  32  Q  33  34  A  35  Q  36  37  A  38  39  Q  40  41  42  A  43  Q  44  45  A  46  47  Mitchell?  LATOR:  Yes.  It's part of 179.  Tsee Ggexw.  It may be better if I take you up there.  I think it would be, but unfortunately that is harder  to manage today than anything else.  Now, let me ask  you:  If you are -- -- do you know the English name  for Tsee Ggexw?  I don't know that.  Is that a name for a long ridge behind Moricetown  that's close to a place called the Nipples?  Have you  ever heard that?  Yes, that Tsee Ggexw is a kind of a ridge, but I  don't -- I don't know anything about the Nipples.  Have you ever heard of a creek or stream called S'kwe,  S-k-w-e?  Yes, I know that one.  That creek S'kwe comes from up  from between the mountains there.  Comes from what mountains?  It comes from between the mountains.  I know it comes out from between the mountains up  there.  I don't know the name exactly of the area.  May I have the name of the creek again?  Is S'kwe.  Could I have the name of the creek again?  S-k-w-e.  Actually, my lord, I think it may be  '-S-k-w-e-'.  Thank you.  And I am taking my spelling again from the affidavit  of Mrs. Alfred. It's on page 4 of Exhibit 120B — A.  Excuse me.  Is the place that you have called Tsee Ggexw, is that  behind or up above a creek that you call S'kwe?  Tsee Ggexw would be west of where S'kwe starts.  And where is the place that you called Decen gyet'ekw  which you talked about?  Yes.  It would -- it would be a hill at the start of  the ridge leading up to Tsee Ggexw.  Is it near -- well, first of all, the spelling again  of that word is D-e-c-e-n g-y-e-t-'-e-k-w.  Now, is  that -- where is that in relation to S'kwe?  It would be south of S'kwe.  Now, when you trapped on that ridge, Mrs. Alfred,  which is south of S'kwe, where did you set your traps?  Yes.  I would go up on the hill to Decen gyet'ekw.  I  would set my traps along the way.  Then at the foot of  Tsee Ggexw, I would turn around there. 2806  1  Q  2  3  THE  INTER  4  Q  5  A  6  MR.  RUSH:  7  8  MR.  PLANT  9  MR.  RUSH:  10  A  11  MR.  RUSH:  12  MR.  PLANT  13  Q  14  15  A  16  Q  17  18  A  19  20  21  22  Q  23  A  24  Q  25  26  A  27  28  Q  29  30  A  31  32  33  Q  34  35  36  A  37  38  39  40  Q  41  42  43  44  THE  COURT  45  A  46  THE  COURT  47  MR.  PLANT  Sorry.  I thought perhaps Mrs. Alfred said something  else that hadn't been --  PRETER:   No.  Oh.  Did you ever set your traps on the creek, S'kwe?  No.  Now, just before you ask any further questions, there  was a name that was given, a hill.  :  Decen gyet'ekw.  Is that the same?  That's the same one.  Same one, thank you.  And Decen gyet'ekw is a hill or a ridge south of the  creek S'kwe?  It would be a hill at the foot of Tsee Ggexw.  And as I understand your evidence you have set traps  on that hill after your marriage to Peter Alfred?  Yes, I've trapped there.  Because of it being our  territory, I trapped there and then if I -- we use it  for one year and then we would go across the river to  the other side, which we would use for another year.  Did you trap there with Bazil Michell?  Yes.  And did you trap there with Bazil after your children  were born?  My three children were born, Andrew, Henry and Irene,  and that's when I quit and I went to the other side.  And did you ever go back to the Moricetown side to  trap after your three children were born?  Now we still trap that area on the village side, Bazil  and us, we trapped on the village side around the  village.  Did you yourself do any trapping on the village side  of the Bulkley after your first three children were  born?  Yes, we -- I trapped on the west side up until the  time when Henry -- Henry was taken my brother's name  and about the time when he passed away is when I moved  back to the east side.  I am not sure I understood that.  You say -- and I  really just want to hear what Mr. Holland, what you  just said.  Trapped on west side until Henry was  taking my mother's name?  :  My brother.  My brother.  :  Which she earlier identified.  :  I beg your pardon? 1  THE  COURT  2  MR.  PLANT  3  Q  4  5  A  6  Q  7  8  9  10  11  A  12  Q  13  A  14  Q  15  16  17  A  18  19  20  THE  COURT  21  A  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  MR.  PLANT  29  Q  30  31  32  33  34  35  MR.  RUSH:  36  37  38  39  40  THE  COURT  41  MR.  RUSH:  42  43  THE  COURT  44  MR.  PLANT  45  46  47  THE  COURT  2807  :  Which she earlier identified possibly as her uncle.  :  Yes.  I am just about to clear that up.  When you speak of your brother you are speaking of  Peter Bazil?  Yes.  So after Henry, that's your son, took Peter Bazil's  name, Wah tah K'eght, you trapped -- you began  trapping -- or rather, start again.  After Henry took  Peter's name Wah tah K'eght, you trapped on the east  side of the Bulkley?  Yes.  And since then I am still trapping over there.  On the east side?  Yes.  Did you trap or hunt in any place on the west side  other than the area around Toboggan Lake and the hill  which you have called Decen gyet'ekw?  A long time ago we trapped the whole area around  there, but due to the population of white people in  the area our activities were the limited.  :  Limited to these two areas?  The area Decen gyet'ekw is the one since I moved to  the east side.  Bazil's sister is the only one that's  been using that area up there, Decen gyet'ekw, and the  rest of the area from pointing at the picture here,  the store at Trout Creek and all from there throughout  the area it's all farmers and we were unable to use  that part of the territory.  In your life, Mrs. Alfred, have you trapped on the  west side of the Bulkley at any place other than  Toboggan Lake or Decen gyet'ekw, and I am asking you  personally because I know that Bazil and Josephine,  that's Bazil's sister, have been all over that  territory, but now I want to ask you about you.  No, no.  Excuse me.  My lord, I understand what my  friend is trying to get to, but the witness has  identified a third area and I think would it not be a  fair question to ask her what are the places that she  herself trapped or hunted?  :  What is the third area?  The third area is the one she identified as being  behind the village.  :  I took that to be Decen gyet'ekw.  :  I did too.  I am certainly not trying to mislead, my  lord.  If the witness identified a third area I want  to find where that is too.  :  In addition to that she has said a long time ago she 2806  1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  MR. RUSH:  MR. PLANT  THE COURT  said we trapped the whole area.  Yes.  :  And that's true, too.  :  I think maybe we will take the morning adjournment  now and you can start fresh in a few minutes, Mr.  Plant.  Thank you.  (PROCEEDINGS ADJOURNED PURSUANT TO MORNING  ADJOURNMENT)  I hereby certify the foregoing to be  a true and accurate transcript of the  proceedings herein to the best of my  skill and ability.  Laara Yardley,  Official Reporter,  United Reporting Service Ltd.  (PROCEEDINGS RESUMED PURSUANT TO A SHORT ADJOURNMENT) 2809  1 THE REGISTRAR:  Order in court.  2 MR. PLANT:  3 Q   Mrs. Alfred, I've been asking you about a creek called  4 S'kwe or S'kwe.  Do you know the English name of that  5 creek?  6 A   No.  I don't know.  I forgot.  7 Q   Have you ever heard that creek referred to as John  8 Brown Creek?  9 A   I remember that name now that you mention it.  I heard  10 it, but -- so I've just known it as S'kwe.  11 Q   I want to come back to the places that you've trapped  12 again in a few minutes, but, first of all, your son,  13 Henry Alfred, holds the name Wah Tah K'eght; is that  14 correct?  15 A   Yes.  16 Q   And have you taught him what you know about the  17 location of the territory of Wah Tah K'eght?  18 A   I -- I have taught him the names of the places that I  19 know, which was, in turn, taught to us by our  20 ancestors, and mostly he was taught by his grandmother  21 the places on the territory.  22 Q   When you refer to his grandmother, are you referring  23 to your mother, Lucy Pius?  24 A   Yes.  25 Q   And your mother, Lucy Pius, also taught you about the  26 territory of Wah Tah K'eght?  27 A   Yes.  And also taught Henry about the territory.  28 Q   Am I correct in assuming that one of Henry Alfred's  29 duties as chief is to know where the territory of Wah  30 Tah K'eght is?  31 A   Yes.  32 Q   When did you teach Henry about the location of the  33 territory of Wah Tah K'eght?  34 A   Our uncles and her mother taught us the areas on the  35 territories, and Henry was mostly taught by his  36 grandmother when Henry used to travel with her when  37 they went out hunting and trapping.  38 Q   Well, let me ask you this then:  Did you teach Henry  39 or did Henry learn from his grandmother?  40 A   Yes.  They taught all of us and she was the one that  41 taught Henry the areas in the territory.  42 Q   So it was Lucy Pius, your mother, who taught Henry  43 about the territory of Wah Tah K'eght; is that  44 correct?  45 A   Yes.  He went out in -- out hunting and trapping with  46 his grandmother, who taught him the area while they  47 were trapping. 1  Q  2  A  3  Q  4  A  5  Q  6  A  7  Q  8  9  10  A  11  12  Q  13  14  A  15  16  17  Q  18  19  A  20  Q  21  22  23  A  24  25  Q  26  27  28  A  29  30  Q  31  32  A  33  Q  34  35  A  36  37  Q  38  A  39  40  Q  41  A  42  Q  43  A  44  Q  45  46  47  A  2810  His grandmother is Lucy Pius, your mother?  Yes.  Henry went to school in Moricetown?  Yes.  He knows how to read and write English?  Yes, he can.  He does all right.  Did you ever help Henry answer interrogatories which  were delivered to him by the provincial government in  this case?  No.  I didn't help him with the papers that were made  out, but I did give him information.  Did you give him information about the location of the  territory of Wah Tah K'eght?  They -- I didn't -- I wasn't with him at the -- when  they were preparing the papers, but they were taught  about the areas beforehand.  By "the areas", do you mean the territory of Wah Tah  K'eght?  Yes.  Were you there when the territory of Wah Tah K'eght  was talked about, the areas that were talked about  beforehand?  Are you talking about when they're going to make the  registry?  Well, I -- you say you weren't with him when he  prepared the papers, but they talked about the areas  beforehand.  Do you remember saying that?  When we -- as I -- I taught him the territory, much  the same way as our -- our ancestors taught us.  Do you remember when Henry had to answer the  interrogatories?  Yes.  Did you have any conversations with Henry about the  territory of Wah Tah K'eght at that time?  They talked to us about it, but -- so we always tell  them everything we know about the territory.  Who talked to you?  When they were talking to us last summer about -- in  preparation, we talked about the territory to Neil.  Is that -- I'm sorry.  And I think the -- the lawyer was also present.  When you say Neil, are you speaking of Neil Sterritt?  Yes.  My lord -- well, let me ask you this, Mrs. Alfred:  Have you ever seen a map of the territory of of Wah  Tah K'eght?  Yes.  It was shown to me, but I don't read, so -- and 2811  1  2  3  Q  4  5  A  6  Q  7  8  A  9  Q  10  11  12  13  A  14  15  16  Q  17  18  A  19  20  MR.  PLANT  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  MR.  RUSH:  31  THE  COURT  32  MR.  RUSH:  33  MR.  PLANT  34  MR.  RUSH:  35  MR.  PLANT  36  37  38  THE  COURT  39  MR.  RUSH:  40  MR.  PLANT  41  THE  COURT  42  MR.  PLANT  43  44  45  46  47  the place names on the boundaries were explained to me  which I knew of.  Did you understand those place names and boundaries to  be what was on the map?  Yes.  Was it a map that showed the territory of Wah Tah  K'eght?  Yes.  I'm going to put the map in front of you, and I  realize that you don't read, Mrs. Alfred, but I think  I have to ask you whether you recognize this as being  the map that was shown to you, or a copy of it?  If -- this could be the one, but if the place names on  there are translated in Wet'suwet'en, I would be able  to tell you more.  So the best that you could say right now is that that  could be the map?  It could be the one, but -- if you mention the  Wet'suwet'en names, maybe I might know.  Well, before I do that, I -- I would like to tender  this as a document to be marked for identification  only at this time, my lord.  The map which I placed  before the witness is a copy of Schedule B to the  interrogatories of Henry Alfred, also known as Wah Tah  K'eght.  They were provided to us under cover of  interrogatories, the answers to which were dated July  31, 1986.  I have a copy for your lordship, which may  assist in finding one or two of the locations that  we've been talking about.  This is already an exhibit.  Oh, is it?  What number is that?  84.  Mr. Goldie entered it as an exhibit.  Well, that may be.  If it's the same one.  My list says so too.  Do we have a copy of Exhibit  84 in the court?  Well, I don't need to take your  time, madam registrar.  I can look at this.  Is it the same one?  I don't know.  It's the interrogatories affidavit map.  Show it to Mr. Rush, please.  Yes.  I don't know if any marks were made on Exhibit  84 at the time that it was used in evidence.  My lord, I have our copy of Exhibit 84 which I  would be happy to hand up to your lordship in lieu of  the document that I've been referring to, be it only  for the reason that our copy of Exhibit 84 has more of 2812  1  2  3  THE  COURT  4  MR.  PLANT  5  Q  6  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  A  15  Q  16  A  17  Q  18  A  19  Q  20  21  A  22  MR.  PLANT  23  THE  COURT  24  MR.  PLANT  25  Q  26  27  28  29  A  30  Q  31  32  A  33  34  MR.  PLANT  35  36  37  38  39  THE  COURT  40  MR.  PLANT  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  the detail that seems to have been lost in the  reproduction process.  :  Thank you.  Now, I -- I don't want to ask very many questions of  you, Mrs. Alfred, about this map, but let me ask you  this one question:  I am pointing to a place which is  on the left-hand side of the territory which is  depicted on this map and is to the left or the west of  the Bulkley, and it appears to me to be a stream, and  above that stream are the letters  S-k-w-a-h-apostrophe.  Now, you told us about the  creek S'kwe?  Yes.  And that's a creek that flows into the Bulkley?  Yes.  And it flows from the west to the east?  Yes.  And does it flow into the Bulkley near the village of  Moricetown?  Yes.  Does your lordship have the creek S'kwe?  Yes.  Thank you, Mrs. Alfred.  Now, Mrs. Alfred, you said  that there was a hill south of S'kwe where you used to  set your traps, and you called that place Decen  gyet'ekw?  Yes.  And you also told us about setting traps near Toboggan  Lake?  Yes.  We used to go trapping beaver there a long time  ago.  :  Now, my lord, the place which I understand to be  Toboggan Lake is depicted on this map close to the  bottom of the territory, which is outlined in large  black line, and the word -- or words beside it are Ta  begh Tai.  Does your lordship have that?  :  Not yet.  :  It's on the left or the west side of the Bulkley,  which is the river that runs down the centre of the  map, and it's -- perhaps I could -- well, it's an inch  or two to the left of the Bulkley, about one inch  above the southern boundary of the territory in an  area which has district lots with the numbers 33, 34  and 35 marked.  Another way of getting there would be  to look just about an inch or two above the left 2813  1  2  3  4  5  6  7  THE  COURT  8  MR.  PLANT  9  10  11  12  13  THE  COURT  14  MR.  PLANT  15  16  17  18  THE  COURT  19  MR.  PLANT  20  Q  21  22  23  24  25  A  26  27  28  Q  29  30  A  31  32  MR.  PLANT  33  THE  COURT  34  MR.  PLANT  35  THE  COURT  36  37  38  39  40  MR.  PLANT  41  42  THE  COURT  43  44  45  MR.  PLANT  46  47  centre of where the map is, an inch or two above the  bottom of the map in the exact centre.  You go down to  the bottom of the map.  Smithers is in the middle just  above the bottom of the map.  The next major feature  up is a -- a lake which has the word T-a-s-s and then  a new word, D-1-e-e-s-e.  :  Yes.  I have that.  :  The next feature up, if you follow the CNR railway,  or the highway, is a small oval -- well, elongated  shape lake, beside which are printed the words capital  T-a and b-a-g-h-t-e-y.  That's just a couple of inches  above --  :  Yes.  I have that too.  :  And that's Toboggan Lake.  Although, as I understand  the witness' evidence, the words Ta begh Tai refer to  a trail alongside Catlin lake -- I'm sorry -- Toboggan  Lake.  :  I have all that.  Thank you.  Now, Mrs. Alfred, where else did you trap on the west  side of Bulkley?  By saying that -- you told us about  the Decen gyet'ekw and you told us about Toboggan  Lake, and I'd like to know where else in your life you  have trapped on the west side of the Bulkley?  On -- we trapped and hunted around Ta begh Tai and  Decen gyet'ekw and also Bazil was trapping around  northwest of that end of the territory.  Did you ever trap with Bazil in that northwest end of  the territory?  I didn't travel with him when he was hunting and  trapping, but I used that area where I mentioned.  Now, you told us something about Bazil Michell.  I'm sorry, Mr. Plant.  I'm sorry, my lord.  The witness did say in addition to the two locations  you mentioned that she trapped somewhere else and then  she went on to talk about where Bazil Michell had  trapped, and I didn't get the name of that other  location.  Was that in the immediate -- the answer that we just  had?  Yes.  Just before that.  Well, just before the  immediate-to-last answer, you asked her where she  trapped in addition to --  Oh, yes. Excuse me, my lord. It's quite correct.  And as I understood it, she had said Ta begh Tai and  Decen gyet'ekw, but if I'm wrong, we better clear that 2814  up.  THE COURT:  I'd like to know if there was another location  mentioned.  I didn't take it to be what you just said.  MR. PLANT:  Then, Mr. Holland, you gave two place names as part  of the last answer.  Could you repeat them so that we  could make a note of them?  INTERPRETER:  Ta begh Tai and Decen gyet'ekw.  COURT:  Then those are the two locations.  PLANT:  The last one?  INTERPRETER:  Decen gyet'ekw.  COURT:  All right.  Thank you.  PLANT:  Those are, I think, the two places that we had  spoken about earlier.  Yes.  I think they are.  1  2  3  4  5  6  7 THE  8 THE  9 MR.  10 THE  11 THE  12 MR.  13  14 THE  15 MR.  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41 THE  42 MR.  43 THE  44  4 5 MR.  46  47  COURT  PLANT  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Bazil Michell is still alive, Mrs. Alfred?  Yes.  He's pretty sick right now.  He's an old man, isn't he?  Yes.  He holds the name Hadah K'umah, number 223?  Yes.  Do you know who held that name before Bazil?  My mother's sister.  Do you know if someone named Johnny Austin,  A-u-s-t-i-n, ever held the name Hadah K'umah?  Yes.  I know him.  You know who Johnny Austin was?  Yes.  Yes.  That was Bazil's mother's brother.  Did Johnny Austin, to your knowledge, ever hold the  name Hadah K'umah?  I don't think he held a name, but I don't know about  it.  I was pretty young then.  I heard the last answer as I don't think he held a  name.  Was the last answer I don't think he held the  name Hadah K'umah?  The name.  Which house does the name Hadah K'umah belong to?  The name belongs to Tsee K'al K'e yex, but Bazil gave  that name to -- Peter Bazil gave the name to Bazil  Michell, who is from G'en egh la yex.  What is the number of that house, please?  I'm looking for the number of Tsee K'al K'e yex.  SPELLER:  Tsee K'al K'e yex is 398 and G'en egh la yex is  399.  PLANT:  Q   You said the name belongs to Tsee K'al K'e yex.  That's the house on a flat rock?  A  Q  A  COURT  PLANT 1  A  2  Q  3  4  A  5  Q  6  7  A  8  Q  9  A  10  Q  11  12  A  13  Q  14  15  A  16  Q  17  18  19  A  20  21  Q  22  23  24  A  25  Q  26  A  2 7 MR.  PLANT  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  3 6 MR.  RUSH:  37 MR.  PLANT  38  Q  39  40  A  41  42  43  44  45  Q  46  47  2815  Yes.  Bazil was born into the house of many eyes, also known  as G'en egh la yex?  Yes.  Do you know who Bazil's mother was?  I'm speaking of  Bazil Michell?  Yes.  He was Amelia, who is from G'en egh la yex.  She was in the house of many eyes?  Yes.  And Bazil's father was Arthur Michell, who's sometimes  called Lame Arthur Michell?  Yes.  Bazil's father, as I understand it, was also a  Laksilyu, and he held the name Hagwilnegh?  Yes.  And as I understand it, it is unusual for someone, a  Wet'suwet'en person, to have a father and mother in  the same clan?  It is true it is unusual, but I didn't know why it was  like that from long time ago.  Now, did you attend the feast where Peter Bazil gave  permission to Bazil Michell to use the west side of  the Bulkley River?  Yes.  Did that feast occur before you were married?  Yes.  :  Now, Mr. Rush asked you a question at volume 40,  page 2668 of the transcript.  He asked:  "And for what  period of time was Bazil Michell given permission to  set his traps or use the west side of the Wah tah  K'eght's territory?"  And you said:  "I don't know,  but all the Laksilyu used the territory amongst  themselves."  Mr. Holland, would you please translate that and  then I have a question for Mrs. Alfred.  What's the line again, the page line?  The page is 2668 and it's the last question and answer  on the page.  Yes.  I -- I remember that.  I still don't know for  how long he gave him that area to use.  Possibly the  reason behind that was that they always worked  together and the two of them always helped one another  at all times.  My question, Mrs. Alfred, was going to be what did you  mean when you say -- or said all the Laksilyu used the  territory amongst themselves? 2816  1  A  2  3  4  Q  5  6  7  A  8  Q  9  10  A  11  12  13  14  15  Q  16  A  17  Q  18  A  19  Q  20  21  A  22  23  Q  24  25  A  26  27  28  Q  29  30  31  A  32  33  34  35  36  Q  37  A  38  39  Q  40  41  A  42 MR.  PLANT  43 THE  COURT  44  4 5 MR.  PLANT  46  47  The -- they all used the territory because they --  even though they have different houses, they all  consider one another relatives.  So do the people of the different houses of the  Laksilyu have the right to go on each other's  territories?  Yes.  And they have the right to go hunt and trap on each  other's territories?  They don't do it that way.  The reason behind Peter  Bazil giving the use of that territory to Bazil  Michell was because Peter Bazil did not have any  brothers to work with and he -- he adopted him as a  brother.  That is why they were working together.  Peter adopted Bazil Michell as his brother?  Yes.  Did Peter adopt -- I'm sorry if I interrupted.  He always helped him out, that is why.  Did Peter adopt Bazil Michell into the house on a flat  rock?  Yes.  That is why he gave him my aunt's name and also  the use of the territory.  And so is it correct to say that now Bazil Michell is  a member of the house on a flat rock?  Yes.  He would belong there because he holds a name  from Tsee K'al K'e yex and he has the use of the  territory.  According to your understanding of Wet'suwet'en law,  would Bazil have the right to select the person who  gets the name Hadah K'umah after he dies?  Yes.  He could do that, and he's -- up to now he's  made a suggestion that he would like to see the name  go back to the people of Tsee K'al K'e yex or one of  the members, and he's made a suggestion that one of my  daughter's sons should be in line for that name.  It was Bazil Michell who made that suggestion?  Yes.  That's -- that is the direction that he's been  talking to us.  Who is the -- the man who is  one of your daughter's sons?  It would be Cyril Michell.  :  Cyril.  :  I'm sorry.  I haven't quite figured out how to spell  that name.  :  I was going to think that Cyril was spelled  C-y-r-i-1, but -- is that -- well, let's use that as a  working spelling.  -- who you describe as  What is his name? 2817  1 THE  2 THE  3 MR.  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  2 3 MR.  24 THE  2 5 MR.  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  3 9 MR.  40  41 THE  42 MR.  43 THE  4 4 MR.  45  46  47  COURT:  All right.  SPELLER:  It's an English name.  PLANT:  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  A  RUSH  SPELLER  PLANT:  Q  I was going to say, that's an English name, isn't it?  Yes.  That's an English name.  Now, I want to see if I can understand what happened  when Peter gave -- Peter Bazil gave Bazil Michell the  right to use the Hadah K'umah territory.  You say that  Peter Bazil adopted Bazil into the house on a flat  rock?  Yes.  Does that mean that Bazil is no longer a member of the  house of many eyes?  That may be so, but he's -- he's still Laksilyu and  they all work together.  And the three houses of Laksilyu are very close,  aren't they, the three houses that we've been talking  about?  Yes.  They are very close, but when they have a  feast -- they may have different houses, but when they  have a feast, that is where they help one another and  that's called Hawal.  Hawal.  I think that's H-a-w-a-1.  293.  In the feast hall all the members of the Laksilyu clan  sit together?  A   Yes.  They all -- they all sit together on one side  and the chiefs sit in the middle.  Q   Have you ever heard of Sam Stayce, S-t-a-y-c-e?  Sam  Stayce?  A   No.  Q   Have you ever heard him described as one of your  ancestors?  A   You've got me confused.  Q   So you don't know who Sam Stayce is or was?  A   I don't know.  I wouldn't know who you're talking  about.  PLANT:  I'm going to go on to another area, but it will only  take a minute or two.  COURT:  Whatever you say.  We have two minutes.  PLANT:  Let me just ask these questions.  COURT:  We can go over a few minutes if we have to.  PLANT:  Q   I want to ask you some questions about John Namox'  brother Pat.  Do you know Pat Namox?  A   Yes.  I know him. 2816  1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  And does he sometimes go by the name J-e-a-n?  Maybe you're speaking of John.  No.  I read something about J-e-a-n.  And let's just  talk about Pat Namox.  Pat sits in front of John Namox  in the feast hall?  Yes.  Is there some reason why he sits in front of John  Namox?  If John passes away, he would move back in that seat.  Does the person who sits in the front row, is that  person considered to be the successor to the chief, in  front of whom he sits?  Yes.  Pat Namox is, as I understand it, also a church chief  in Moricetown?  Yes.  What is a church chief?  He would be a religious leader who oversees some of  the -- he oversees the village itself, and he also has  other -- other selected men under him whom he guides  to look after the village  Would it be convenient to adjourn at this point?  Yes.  Thank you.  Two o'clock, please.  THE REGISTRAR:  Order in court.  This court stands adjourned  until two o'clock this afternoon.  (PROCEEDINGS ADJOURNED)  I hereby certify the foregoing to be  a true and accurate transcript of the  proceedings transcribed to the best  of my skill and ability.  Kathie Tanaka, Official Reporter  UNITED REPORTING SERVICE LTD.  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  MR. PLANT  THE COURT 2819  1 (PROCEEDINGS RESUMED PURSUANT TO LUNCHEON ADJOURNMENT)  2  3  4  5 THE REGISTRAR:  Recalling Delgamuukw against Her Majesty the  6  7 Queen.  8  9 THE COURT:  Mr. Plant?  10  11  12  13 CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR. PLANT, (Continued):  14  15       Q   Mrs. Alfred, you have told us that a church chief is a  16  17 religious leader who oversees some of -- and then I  18  19 think the interpreter started again and said that he  20  21 has other selected men under him look after the  22  23 village.  In what way does the church chief look after  24  25 the village?  26  27       A   Their job would be, if they are young people or  28  29 children who would be led astray and they would  30  31 counsel them.  Also if there is separation in  32  33 marriages, there again they would participate in  34  35 counselling the marriage separation or breakdown.  36  37       Q   Are there any other functions which the church chief  38  39 performs?  40  41       A   They would -- he would also look after the functions  42  43 of the church activities.  44  45       Q   When you speak of church here, are you speaking of the  46  47 Catholic church at Moricetown? 2820  1       A   Yes.  2  3       Q   What kinds of activities does the church chief look  4  5 after?  6  7       A   If the priest in a church makes a speech, he would  8  9 also -- that church chief would explain what the  10  11 priest is saying.  12  13       Q   By explain do you mean translate into Wet'suwet'en?  14  15       A   Yes.  16  17       Q   Does the church chief have any functions at Feasts in  18  19 Moricetown?  20  21       A   Yes.  He also participates and he also speaks there,  22  23 too.  24  25       Q   How does the church chief participate in Feasts?  26  27       A   His participation in a Feast is always the same as --  28  29 he participates in a Feast the same as everybody else.  30  31       Q   Does he have a special position in the village?  32  33       A   Yes.  His position as a Catholic chief, he would look  34  35 after the village.  36  37       Q   Does the church chief -- or let me start again.  Is  38  39 the church chief an important person in the life of  40  41 the Wet'suwet'en?  42  43       A   Yes.  44  45       Q   And he participates in the burial of Wet'suwet'en  46  47 people? 2821  1       A   Yes.  2  3       Q   Does he participate in baptisms of children?  4  5       A   The priest does the baptismal by himself, but the  6  7 church chief, he always -- he's always at the Sunday  8  9 services.  10  11       Q   Does he have a special job at the Sunday service?  12  13       A  At the Sunday service he speaks to the Indian people  14  15 there.  16  17       Q   So is he one of the people who participates in the  18  19 Sunday service?  20  21       A   Yes.  22  23       Q   How is the church chief selected?  24  25       A   If they come to the church and if there is to be a  26  27 successor to one other church chief, they all come to  28  29 the church and select a new church chief and then the  30  31 bishop comes and baptizes them also.  32  33       Q   Is there a special ceremony for the baptism of the  34  35 church chief?  36  37       A   Yes.  38  39       Q   And that ceremony takes place in the church at  40  41 Moricetown?  42  43       A   Yes.  44  45       Q   Your late husband, Peter Alfred, was a church chief?  46  47       A   Yes. 2822  1       Q   Is there only one church chief at a time?  2  3       A   Yes.  4  5       Q   And does he choose the people who will help him?  6  7       A   Yes.  8  9       Q   Now, Mrs. Alfred, as I understand it, you were born in  10  11 Moricetown in the house that you showed us in the  12  13 photograph, which I believe is Exhibit 134, the house  14  15 up back on the hill, is that correct?  16  17       A   Yes.  18  19       Q   And that house was what -- let me ask you this:  Was  20  21 that house what you have sometimes called a winter  22  2 3 home?  24  25       A   Yes, that would be called a winter home sometimes.  We  26  27 lived there most of the time.  28  29       Q   And as I understand it, you -- well, actually I am not  30  31 sure of this.  Have you lived in Moricetown all your  32  33 life?  34  35       A   Yes.  I was raised there.  That's why I lived there  36  37 all the time.  38  39       Q   And you still live there today?  40  41       A   Yes.  42  43       Q   And you lived in Moricetown when you were married to  44  45 Peter Alfred in 1931?  46  47       A   Yes. 2823  1       Q   And you lived in Moricetown when your children were  2  3 born?  4  5       A   Yes.  6  7       Q   Now, you have told us that your husband was a  8  9 commercial fisherman for two years.  Did your husband  10  11 ever work as a truck driver?  12  13       A  When he was on the coast fishing in the winter months  14  15 he drove truck for Hanson.  16  17       Q   He drove a truck for Hanson.  Is that the man who cuts  18  19 poles?  20  21       A   Yes.  22  23       Q   Did your husband -- well, you say he cut -- he drove  24  25 truck for -- drove a truck for Hanson one winter.  Was  26  27 that the only time that he ever was a truck driver?  28  29       A   Yes.  30  31       Q   And where was Hanson's pole cutting operation?  32  33       A   He drove truck for him in various areas wherever they  34  35 were making poles.  36  37       Q   Did that include the area around Beament?  38  39       A   Yes.  40  41       Q   Did that include any areas around Moricetown?  42  43       A   No.  There is no poles around there.  44  45       Q   Were there other Moricetown people who worked cutting  46  47 poles or driving truck for -- driving trucks for Mr. 2824  1 Hanson?  2  3       A   No.  But some of the people like Little Tommy worked  4  5 for Hanson.  Also late Big Tommy.  6  7       Q   That's Little Tommy and Big Tommy Michell?  8  9       A   Yes.  They -- they worked for Hanson.  10  11       Q   And Bazil and Josephine Michell?  12  13       A   Yes.  They all worked for him.  14  15       Q   Lucy Bazil's husband, Frank, he worked cutting poles,  16  17 too?  18  19       A   I don't think so.  I didn't see him, but he was  20  21 probably working on the coast.  22  23       Q   Did your husband Peter, your late husband Peter, ever  24  25 work in a sawmill?  26  27       A   Yes.  We worked on -- we worked on sawmills, but we  28  29 worked for some of the white people.  They have all  30  31 passed on.  32  33       Q   Did these white people have sawmills near Moricetown?  34  35       A   There was two white people, one by the name of Gordon  36  37 Chapman and one by the name of Spence, they had a  38  39 sawmill north of K'aaz Kwe, but they didn't stay very  40  41 long when they quit.  42  43       Q   Didn't stay very long?  44  45       A   No, they didn't.  They didn't stay long.  46  47       Q   Now, K'aaz Kwe — 2825  1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  THE TRANSLATOR:  368.  MR. PLANT:  Thank you.  THE COURT:  I am sorry?  MR. PLANT:  368.  THE COURT:  Thank you.  MR. PLANT:  Q   Is a -- that's a creek that flows into the Bulkley,  comes from the east, it's on the other side of the  village -- I am sorry, on the other side of the  Bulkley from Moricetown village?  A   Yes.  Q   Am I right that that creek flows into the Bulkley just  north of where the Moricetown village is today?  A   Yes.  MR. PLANT:  My lord, the creek that the witness is referring to  is I think the creek that --  THE COURT:  I see it on the map.  MR. PLANT:  — the map has.  THE COURT:  Spelled a little differently.  MR. PLANT:  It's spelled a little differently.  G-'-a-z-k-w-u-h.  Q   Which side of the river was the sawmill on, Mrs.  Alfred?  A   It was -- it was on the K'aaz Kwe side.  It was north  of K'aaz Kwe. 2826  1       Q   Did your husband log in that area?  Did he cut trees  2  3 for this sawmill operation?  4  5       A   Yes, he -- he logged on there.  6  7       Q   And is that the area of K'aaz Kwe or north of K'aaz  8  9 Kwe?  10  11       A   It would be north of K'aaz Kwe.  12  13       Q   Was it as far north as Beament?  14  15       A   No.  16  17       Q   So somewhere between K'aaz Kwe and Beament?  18  19       A   Yes.  20  21       Q   Is that on the territory of Wah tah K'eght.  22  23 MR. RUSH:  Is what on the territory of Wah tah K'eght?  24  2 5 MR. PLANT:  Excuse me?  26  2 7 MR. RUSH:  Is what —  28  2 9 MR. PLANT:  30  31       Q   The area where the logging took place, that is to say  32  33 between Beament or K'aaz Kwe creek or K'aaz Kwe -- let  34  35 me ask you this:  First of all, you say it was between  36  37 K'aaz Kwe and Beament.  Was it -- do you know where  38  39 Kwun Creek is, Mrs. Alfred, K-w-u-n?  40  41       A   Yes.  It was -- it was straight up from on that creek.  42  43 That's where the sawmill was for a little while.  Not  44  45 very long.  46  47       Q   Just to make sure I have this, the sawmill that we 2827  1 have been talking about was straight up from Kwun  2  3 Creek?  4  5       A   Yes, it was above that on a side hill.  6  7 MR. RUSH:  I'd just like Mr. Mitchell or Mr. Holland to assure  8  9 us that we are talking about the same place, that the  10  11 Kwun, whatever the spelling is or the pronunciation is  12  13 the same that you are referring to on the map.  14  15 THE COURT:  There is two Kwuns on the map.  16  17 MR. PLANT:  I had understood the witness to have identified the  18  19 location, but let's try this.  20  21       Q   Downstream from K'aaz Kwe do you know of a creek  22  23 called Kwun Creek which flows into the Bulkley on the  24  25 east side flowing from east to west into the Bulkley?  26  27       A   I didn't know the creek that you are speaking of.  28  29 You've lost me some place when you started talking  30  31 about Kwun Creek.  32  33       Q   Have you ever heard of a place called Kwun Creek, Mrs.  34  35 Alfred?  36  37       A   No.  38  39 THE COURT:  I have got it that there has been logged in the  40  41 K'aaz Kwe area north of there but not as far north as  42  43 Beament, and the only question I am left with is on  44  45 what side of the Bulkley River?  46  47 MR. PLANT:  I was also hoping to find out whether it was north 2828  1 or south of Kwun Creek which appears to correspond  2  3 with the thick black line that marks the boundary of  4  5 Wah tah K'eght's territory as it enters the Bulkley on  6  7 the map which is Exhibit 84.  It is not marked as Kwun  8  9 Creek on that map on Exhibit 84.  There is on that  10  11 area on that place on the government map is described  12  13 as Kwun Creek.  14  15 THE COURT:  Coming from in the east or the west?  16  17 MR. PLANT:  Coming in from the east on the east bank.  The line,  18  19 the boundary line as plotted on Exhibit 84 at the  20  21 point where it comes into the Bulkley is drawn over  22  23 what is Kwun Creek on government maps.  24  25 THE COURT:  All right.  26  2 7 MR. PLANT:  28  29       Q   Now, Mrs. Alfred, you've talked about --  30  31 MR. RUSH:  Excuse me just before you go on, how is Kwun spelled?  32  33 MR. PLANT:  K-w-u-n.  34  35 MR. RUSH:  Okay.  Thank you.  36  37 MR. PLANT:   And I believe Mr. Holland was translating it as  38  3 9 Kwun Kwe .  40  41 THE COURT:  Yes.  42  4 3 MR. PLANT:  44  45       Q   But, Mrs. Alfred, you have never heard of a place  46  47 which I know as Kwun Creek, is that correct? 2829  1       A   I don't know no Kwun Kwe.  But just wondering maybe  2  3 you are talking about L'taa Kwa or something.  4  5 THE REGISTRAR:  383.  6  7 MR. RUSH:  L'taa Kwa.  8  9 THE TRANSLATOR:  L'taa Kwa, 383.  10  11 MR. PLANT:  12  13       Q   No.  I am talking about a creek on the other side of  14  15 the Bulkley, right where L'taa Kwa comes in.  Right  16  17 near there.  18  19       A   That's the one they call Ts'a buu' kwe.  20  21 MR. PLANT:  May I have a spelling for that, please?  My lord,  22  23 Ts'a buu'kwe not plotted on Exhibit 84.  24  25 THE COURT:  No, I haven't found it yet anyways.  26  27 THE TRANSLATOR:  Ts'a buu' kwe, T-s-'-a-b-u-u-' k-w-e.  28  29 MR. PLANT:  That a B or a P?  30  31 THE TRANSLATOR:  B.  32  33 MR. PLANT:  Thank you.  34  35 THE COURT:  And what is that, please?  36  37 MR. PLANT:  38  39       Q   Is Ts'a buu' kwe a river that flows into the Bulkley  40  41 from east to west on the east side of the Bulkley?  42  43       A   Yes.  That's the one that flows down from the hill.  44  45 THE COURT:  On the —  46  4 7 MR. PLANT: 2830  1       Q   On the hill you are talking about, is that a mountain?  2  3 Does that hill rise up to a mountain?  4  5       A   Yes.  I think that's where it flows from.  6  7 THE COURT:  On the east side of the Bulkley?  8  9       A   Yes.  That's on the east side of the river.  That is  10  11 the only creeks I know beside K'aaz Kwe, that other  12  13 creek it's only ones that I know of.  14  15 MR. PLANT:  16  17       Q   Do you know the name of the mountain?  18  19       A   No.  20  21       Q   Mrs. Alfred, could you look at the photograph at tab  22  23 22 of this book.  Does that look familiar to you?  And  24  25 I am really directing your attention to what appears  26  27 to be a mountain in the upper right-hand part of the  28  29 photograph?  30  31       A   I don't recognize that mountain in the photo, but it  32  33 does look like Hudson Bay Mountain.  34  35       Q   I think this photograph is taken on the other side  36  37 of -- or it's taken north and I think that this is  38  39 supposed to be a photograph of the mountain that you  40  41 were talking about a minute ago?  42  43       A   I just recognize this picture.  It looks like the area  44  45 where there is a fence, this fence along here where it  46  47 leads down into the canyon and it's looking north and 2831  1 looking at the mountain there, this fence here was put  2  3 in for safety reasons for -- and there is a lake in  4  5 there.  That's Ts'a buu' kwe right here, that lake in  6  7 here.  8  9 THE COURT:  Could I ask — does this creek Ts'a buu' kwe, Ts'a  10  11 buu' kwe I guess, is it on the territory of Wah tah  12  13 K'eght?  14  15 MR. PLANT: Ts'a buu' kwe.  16  17 MR. RUSH:  Is that Ts'a buu' kwe?  18  19 THE COURT:  Ts'a buu' kwe.  20  21       A   Oh, that Ts'a buu' kwe is in Gilseyhu's territory.  22  23 THE COURT:  It is in whose territory?  24  25 MR. RUSH:  Gilseyhu's territory.  132, my lord.  26  27       A   Gilseyhu is south on our territory.  28  2 9 MR. PLANT:  30  31       Q   Is K'aaz Kwe a boundary of the territory of Wah tah  32  33 K'eght?  34  35       A   Yes.  36  37       Q   Now, you said that your husband, your late husband  38  39 Peter Alfred, worked for white people who had a  40  41 sawmill north of K'aaz Kwe.  Was that on the east or  42  43 the west side of the Bulkley, the sawmill I mean?  44  45       A   The sawmill was north of K'aaz Kwe across the river.  46  47       Q   Was it on the village side of the river? 2832  1       A   No.  It was across from the village side.  2  3       Q   And how far was the sawmill from the river?  4  5       A   It was some distance up the hill about a mile.  6  7       Q   Was the sawmill located near the place which you have  8  9 described as Ts'a buu' kwe?  10  11       A   No.  It was in between the creek Ts'a buu' kwe and  12  13 K'aaz Kwe.  14  15       Q   Was the sawmill located on Gilseyhu's territory?  16  17       A   Yes.  18  19       Q   And was the logging that your husband participated in  20  21 conducted on Gilseyhu's territory?  22  23       A   Yes.  24  25       Q   So far as you know did your husband have permission  26  27 from any of the chiefs in the Gilseyhu clan to take  28  29 trees from that area?  30  31       A   I don't think so.  I forget now.  That's probably one  32  33 of the reasons why they didn't stay there long and  34  35 they just came back.  36  37       Q   Did your husband, late husband, work for any other  38  39 sawmill operations?  40  41       A   No.  42  43       Q   Did your husband ever work for Sylvester William at  44  45 Springhill?  46  47       A   Yes.  He worked for him. 2833  1       Q   Did Sylvester William have a sawmill at Springhill?  2  3       A   Yes.  He had a sawmill there.  4  5       Q   Did your husband work at that sawmill?  6  7       A   Yes.  There was a few people worked on that mill and  8  9 my husband was falling for them.  10  11       Q   Your husband cut trees for Sylvester William?  12  13       A   Yes.  14  15       Q   Is Springhill the place also known as Ha ta lii?  16  17       A   Yes.  18  19       Q   Can you tell me where Springhill is in relation to  20  21 Moricetown?  Oh, I am sorry, before we do that, I  22  23 don't know if there is a number.  24  25 THE TRANSLATOR:  492.  26  2 7 THE COURT:  4 9 — ?  28  2 9 MR. PLANT:  4 92.  30  31 THE COURT:  Thank you.  32  33 MR. PLANT:  34  35       Q   I was about to ask you where Springhill is in relation  36  37 to Moricetown?  38  39       A   It's across the river from the village south of  40  41 Moricetown.  42  43       Q   Can you tell me where Springhill is in relation to a  44  45 place called C'eget Kwe?  And if I haven't pronounced  46  47 that right, the spelling I have is C-'-e-g-e-t K-w-e. 2834  1       A   Springhill would be south of C'eget Kwe.  And C'eget  2  3 Kwe would be closer -- closer to Moricetown.  4  5 MR. PLANT:  My lord, do you see C'eget Kwe on the map spelled  6  7 K-e-h?  8  9 THE COURT:  Yes.  10  11 MR. PLANT:  12  13       Q   Well, is Springhill as far down as Driftwood Creek?  14  15 Oh, I am sorry, I don't mean to interrupt.  16  17       A   Springhill would be just a little ways from Too Coo  18  19 Kwe.  20  21 THE TRANSLATOR:  366.  22  23 MR. PLANT:  366.  My lord, do you see Too Coo Kwe on the map?  24  25 THE COURT:  Yes.  Yes.  26  2 7 MR. PLANT:  28  29       Q   Did Peter Alfred cut trees in the vicinity of  30  31 Springhill for Sylvester William?  32  33       A   Yes.  34  35       Q   For how many years did he?  36  37       A   They were only there for about two years and when they  38  3 9 moved out.  40  41 THE COURT:  Two years ago when?  42  43       A   They worked in there for only two years.  44  4 5 THE COURT:  When?  46  47       A   That was Cecil and Dorothy and Janet weren't married 2835  1 yet at that time.  Cecil was just small.  He was  2  3 skidding then.  4  5 THE COURT:  That's fine, thank you.  6  7 MR. PLANT:  8  9       Q   Was Cecil born in 1945, Mrs. Alfred?  10  11       A   Yes.  12  13       Q   Did Sylvester William have the permission of Wah tah  14  15 K'eght to operate a sawmill and take trees from the  16  17 area around Springhill?  18  19       A   Yes, I believe he did, because that is one of the  20  21 reasons why our family was working on there and then  22  23 didn't stay there long because they wanted to conserve  24  25 the timbers in there.  26  27       Q   Did your late husband cut trees or work in sawmills in  28  29 any other location besides the two that you've already  30  31 mentioned?  32  33       A   No.  34  35       Q   Did your late husband ever work as a saxophone player?  36  37       A   Yes, he played saxophone.  38  39       Q   Did your late husband Peter Alfred speak English?  40  41       A   Yes, he spoke English.  42  43       Q   And as I understand it, he was also the elected chief  44  45 of the Village of Moricetown, is that correct?  46  47       A   Yes. 2836  1       Q   So he was the chief counsellor of the band in  2  3 Moricetown?  4  5       A   Yes.  6  7       Q   Did he hold that position for a long time?  8  9       A   He held -- they usually hold that position sometimes  10  11 two, three years and then it changes hand.  12  13       Q   And then he would hold it again after awhile?  14  15       A   No.  16  17       Q   Was your late husband responsible for building the  18  19 hall at Moricetown?  20  21       A   Yes.  Him and Donald were responsible for building the  22  23 hall there.  24  25       Q   Who is Donald?  26  27       A  And Alfred also.  Donald Michell.  He's also passed  28  2 9 on.  30  31       Q   And you said Alfred.  Who is Alfred?  32  33       A  Alfred Mitchell.  34  35       Q   Did your husband -- was your husband responsible for  36  37 building the handicraft store in Moricetown?  38  39       A   Yes, he was responsible for building the handicraft  40  41 store.  42  4 3       Q   And the campgrounds?  44  45       A   Yes, he was -- yes, he was involved with the committee  46  47 that was responsible for that, like Johnny Mack and 2837  1 Dan and them.  2  3       Q   Is that Dan Michell?  4  5       A   Yes.  6  7       Q   That's the campground for tourists?  8  9       A   Yes.  They were the first ones responsible for the  10  11 original campground, but there is different people  12  13 involved now.  14  15       Q   Is there still a campground for tourists at  16  17 Moricetown?  18  19       A   Yes.  20  21       Q   When you were a little girl in Moricetown, was there a  22  23 bridge across the canyon?  24  25       A   Yes.  26  27       Q   And there was a bridge across the canyon as far back  28  2 9 as you can remember?  30  31       A   Yes.  32  33       Q   And of course the railroad went near the village when  34  35 you were a little girl?  36  37       A   Yes.  38  39       Q   Were there --  40  41       A   It was made -- it was put in before my time.  42  43       Q   Were there automobiles in Moricetown when you were a  44  45 little girl?  46  47       A   Yes.  There was old cars around there at that time. 2838  1       Q   There were no cars?  2  3       A   Old cars.  4  5       Q   Old cars.  Your husband Peter Alfred, did he have a  6  7 car?  Was he one of the first people to have a car?  8  9 MR. RUSH:  Two questions.  10  11 MR. PLANT:  Yes, that's fine.  I will ask the second one first.  12  13       Q   Was your husband Peter Alfred one of the first people  14  15 to have a car in Moricetown?  16  17       A   Bazil and my old man were the first ones to have a car  18  19 there.  20  21       Q   Bazil had a taxi service?  Is this Bazil Michell?  22  23 Sorry, first of all, the Bazil that you speak of, is  24  25 that Bazil Michell?  26  27       A   Yes, that's Bazil Michell.  28  29       Q   And Bazil had a taxi service?  30  31       A   I don't think he had a taxi.  People helped him --  32  33 helped one another out them days.  I don't think he  34  35 had a taxi.  36  37       Q   If you wanted to go shopping for supplies, would you  38  39 go up to Hazelton or Smithers or where would you go?  40  41       A   I would go to either one of the two places, Hazelton  42  43 or Smithers.  44  45       Q   Was there a store in Moricetown when you were a little  46  47 girl? 2839  1       A   No.  2  3 THE COURT:  Can we take the afternoon adjournment now, Mr.  4  5 Plant, please.  Thank you.  6  7  8  9 (PROCEEDINGS ADJOURNED PURSUANT TO AFTERNOON RECESS)  10  11  12  13 I hereby certify the foregoing to be  14  15 a true and accurate transcript of the  16  17 proceedings herein to the best of my  18  19 skill and ability.  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29 Laara Yardley,  30  31 Official Reporter,  32  33 United Reporting Service Ltd.  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47 2840  1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  2 5        (PROCEEDINGS RESUMED PURSUANT TO A SHORT ADJOURNMENT)  26  27 THE REGISTRAR:  Order in court.  28  2 9 MR. PLANT:  30  31       Q   Mrs. Alfred, you told us that when you went to  32  33 Glentanna when you were 14 years old, you hunted for  34  35 rabbits and marten and you had a line for deadfalls.  36  37 Do you remember telling us that?  38  39       A   Yes.  40  41       Q   Deadfalls are a kind of trap; is that correct?  42  43       A   Yes.  44  45       Q   Where was the line -- the trapline, the deadfalls  46  47 trapline? 2841  1       A  We -- my brother used to go over the hill to  2  3 Tedeltl'ets and he would go over there and he would  4  5 camp over maybe two days or two nights, but us, we  6  7 used to go up to -- up to the -- when he goes over the  8  9 hill, we would turn back and he would continue on up  10  11 by himself to Tedeltl'ets.  12  13 THE SPELLER:  Tedeltl'ets, 372.  14  15 THE COURT:  372.  Thank you.  16  17 MR. PLANT:  18  19       Q   So when you say that you had a line for deadfalls, are  20  21 you talking about the trapline that Peter Bazil, your  22  23 brother, used to have?  24  25       A   Yes.  26  27       Q   Did you yourself ever trap or have a line of traps  28  29 along Driftwood Creek?  30  31       A   No.  32  33       Q   And when I refer to Driftwood Creek, I'm referring to  34  35 the place called C'ede'i Kwe or capital  36  37 C-apostrophe-e-d-e-apostrophe-i-k-w-e.  Do you  38  39 understand that?  40  41       A   Yes.  42  43 THE COURT:  Was that triple E?  44  45 MR. PLANT:  I beg your pardon?  46  47 THE COURT:  Was that C triple E? 2842  1 MR. PLANT:  No.  It's C-apostrophe-e-d-e.  2  3 THE COURT:  Oh, e-d-e.  4  5 THE SPELLER:  Number 231.  6  7 MR. PLANT:  8  9       Q   Thank you, Mr. Michell.  10  11 Could you turn to the last picture in the book of  12  13 photographs that I have in front of you?  That's at  14  15 Tab 31 of the book.  Do you recognize what is shown in  16  17 that photograph, Mrs. Alfred?  18  19       A   I recognize that hall in the picture.  It's a hall up  20  21 in Glentanna area and the creek, C'ede'i Kwe.  22  23 C'enuu'i Kwe comes down not too far from there.  24  25 THE SPELLER:  It's not on the list.  26  27 MR. PLANT:  That's the same word?  28  29 THE SPELLER:  No.  30  31 MR. PLANT:  Oh, a different word.  32  33 THE SPELLER:  C'enuu'i Kwe,  34  35 C-apostrophe-e-n-u-u-apostrophe-i-k-w-e.  36  37 THE COURT:  I'm sorry, Mr. Michell.  C-apostrophe-e-a-u?  38  39 THE SPELLER:  C-apostrophe-e-n-u-u-apostrophe-i-k-w-e.  40  41 MR. PLANT:  42  43       Q   Do you know if that creek, C'enuu'i Kwe, has a name in  44  45 English, Mrs. Alfred?  46  47       A   No.  I forgot that name. 2843  1       Q   Have you ever heard of a creek called Canyon Creek?  2  3       A   Canyon Creek is south of that hall there, but the  4  5 creek I was referring to is north of that hall there.  6  7       Q   And is the creek that you were referring to north of  8  9 Driftwood Creek?  10  11       A   That's -- that's the creek they call C'enuu'i Kwe.  12  13       Q   That creek, C'enuu'i Kwe, is that north of Driftwood  14  15 Creek?  16  17       A   That -- that first creek is C'enuu'i Kwe and the creek  18  19 further north is C'ede'i Kwe.  20  21 THE COURT:  North of what?  I'm sorry.  From Driftwood or from  22  23 the hall?  24  2 5 MR. PLANT:  26  27       Q   I think —  28  29       A   The creek that comes down on the left-hand side of the  30  31 hall in the picture is C'enuu'i Kwe and then the one  32  33 further north is C'ede'i Kwe.  34  35       Q   So of the two creeks, C'ede'i Kwe or Driftwood Creek  36  37 is the further north?  That is the closer to  38  39 Moricetown?  40  41       A   The creek on the northern part of -- come down on the  42  43 northern part of Glentanna is the one they call  44  45 C'ede'i Kwe.  It's north Glentanna.  46  47       Q   And is the other creek, C'enuu'i Kwe, is that south of 2844  1 Glentanna?  2  3       A   Yes.  4  5       Q   Is there a boundary of Wah Tah K'eght's territory in  6  7 that area?  8  9       A   The traditional boundary line is the one they call  10  11 C'enuu'i Kwe and anything south of that would be  12  13 Gitdumden.  14  15       Q   The line is C'enuu'i Kwe?  The traditional line is  16  17 C'enuu'i Kwe?  18  19       A   Yes.  20  21       Q   The building in the photograph at Tab 31, has that  22  23 been there a long time, Mrs. Alfred?  24  25       A   I don't know -- I don't know what year it was built,  26  27 but it wasn't all that long ago after white people had  28  29 settled around the area.  30  31       Q   Were there buildings in Glentanna that the white  32  33 people lived in the first time you remember going  34  35 there?  36  37       A   No.  38  39       Q   But the -- the farmers and ranchers have been there  40  41 for a long time; is that correct?  42  43       A   There was nobody around the area when we used to go  44  45 there to hunt for rabbits, but the white people  46  47 started moving in before the time I got married. 2845  1 MR. PLANT:  I'd ask that the photograph at Tab 31 be marked as  2  3 the next exhibit.  4  5 THE REGISTRAR:  Number 147.  6  7 THE COURT:  Thank you.  8  9 (EXHIBIT 147:  Photograph)  10  11 MR. PLANT:  My lord, Glentanna, very roughly speaking, and I  12  13 am -- I mean that when I say that -- is if your  14  15 lordship has where the solid line which I take to be  16  17 the boundary of the Wah Tah K'eght territory on  18  19 Exhibit 84, where that crosses the Bulkley at the  20  21 southern part, if you go to the right about an inch  22  23 and up a little ways, there's a plot marked lot 859.  24  25 It's really just to the right of the Bulkley, an inch  26  27 up above, half an inch, thereabouts.  There's a --  28  2 9 THE COURT:  Yes.  30  31 MR. PLANT:  -- a line that crosses diagonally through that --  32  33 THE COURT:  Yes.  34  35 MR. PLANT:  — district lot.  36  37 THE COURT:  That's the — is that called the high road?  38  39 MR. PLANT:  The Telkwa High Road.  I — my understanding, and  40  41 this is just an inference that I have drawn from  42  43 trying to compare this map to other maps, is that,  44  45 very roughly speaking, that's about where Glentanna  46  47 is. 2846  1 MR. RUSH:  Well, I —  2  3 MR. PLANT:  I only say that for assistance.  4  5 MR. RUSH:  Well, Glentanna is an area which I think may have  6  7 variable meanings depending on who you're asking  8  9 and —  10  11 THE COURT:  Right.  12  13 MR. PLANT:  Oh, then let me qualify what I'm saying, because I  14  15 certainly don't want to suggest any conclusion from  16  17 what I am saying.  The location of Glentanna that I'm  18  19 talking about is the spot which is marked Glentanna on  20  21 government maps.  Now, Glentanna may be an area.  It  22  23 may not be a particular place or --  24  25 THE COURT:  Nothing is clear.  You're just saying you understand  26  27 that's the general area.  28  29 MR. RUSH:  Yes.  The witness has, I think, consistently referred  30  31 to Glentanna as an area and not a spot, and I think --  32  33 I do think that there are different views among a  34  35 number of people about what constitutes Glentanna.  36  37 THE COURT:  I wanted to briefly know generally where it is.  Now  38  39 I know generally where Mr. Plant says it is anyway.  40  41 MR. PLANT:  I think if you were to ask anyone who had never  42  43 lived there, there might be a consensus on one thing:  44  45 That whatever Glentanna is, there isn't a lot there.  46  47 Now, if I could -- 2847  1 THE COURT:  Mr. Plant.  2  3 MR. PLANT:  Oh, excuse me.  4  5 THE COURT:  This copy of Exhibit 84, it used to be for  6  7 identification.  It's Exhibit 84 now.  Is this your  8  9 copy?  10  11 MR. PLANT:  Yes.  You may have that if it will assist your  12  13 lordship.  I was -- I provided that to you earlier  14  15 because I did not want to take the time to try and  16  17 find where the Court's copy is.  18  19 THE COURT:  I can mark where you say Glentanna is anyway just  20  21 for my own purposes.  All right.  Thank you.  It was  22  23 859, wasn't it?  24  25 MR. PLANT:  In that very general area.  I certainly don't want  26  27 to be taken as representing that it's --  28  2 9 THE COURT:  No.  30  31 MR. PLANT:  — north or south of that boundary line.  32  33 THE COURT:  All right.  34  35 MR. PLANT:  36  37       Q   But in relation to the rest of the map, that's its  38  39 approximate location.  40  41 Mrs. Alfred, do you have the photograph at Tab 30  42  43 in front of you?  My instructions are that that is a  44  45 picture of Driftwood Canyon Provincial Park in the  46  47 winter.  Have you ever been there? 1  A  2  3  Q  4  5  6  7  A  2848  Yes.  I know the place.  And does that photograph look like the place which you  know?  A   That -- that picture -- I know there's a picnic ground  8  9 there and that -- that area inside is within our  10  11 territory.  12  13 MR. PLANT:  I'd ask that that be marked as the next exhibit, my  14  15 lord.  16  17 THE REGISTRAR:  Exhibit 148.  18  19 (EXHIBIT 148:  Photograph)  20  21 MR. PLANT:  22  23       Q   Now, you told us about the place that Peter Bazil --  24  25 Peter Bazil used to go off to trap and camp for two  26  27 days and two nights, and, as I understand it, that is  28  29 the place which is number 372, Tedeltl'ets?  30  31       A   Yes.  32  33       Q   Can you tell me where that is in relation to  34  35 Glentanna?  36  37       A  We would go straight up from -- up on the hill from  38  39 Glentanna to go to Tedeltl'ets travelling east.  40  41       Q   Is that up into the mountains?  42  43       A   The hill that he goes over is not a mountain, but the  44  45 lake where he goes to has mountains around it.  46  47       Q   What did he trap at the lake? 2849  1       A   He would hunt and trap beaver in the lake and they  2  3 also harvested trout, and they had a fish fence there  4  5 with an opening in it where they set the fish trap.  6  7 Bazil's late mother were using that area a long time  8  9 ago and that is why Bazil also had -- had a line in  10  11 there.  12  13       Q   Was Bazil's late mother known as -- first of all, when  14  15 you say Bazil, do you mean Peter Bazil?  16  17       A   Yes.  18  19       Q   And was his late mother known as Heywon?  20  21       A   No.  22  23 MR. PLANT:  The spelling I have for Heywon is H-e-y-w-o-n.  Is  24  25 that correct?  26  27 THE SPELLER:  Yes.  28  2 9 MR. PLANT:  30  31       Q   What was Peter Bazil's late mother's name?  32  33       A   That is -- that was the same name that Bazil has now.  34  35       Q   The same name that Bazil Michell has now?  36  37       A   Yes.  38  3 9       Q   And that's Hadah K'umah?  40  41       A   Yes.  42  43 THE SPELLER:  223.  44  4 5 MR. PLANT:  46  47       Q   Is there a creek -- well, let me ask you this first: 2850  1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  This -- the word Tedeltl'ets, number 372, is that the  name of the lake where Peter Bazil used to trap beaver  and harvest trout?  A  Yes.  Q  Is there a creek which flows out of that lake?  10  11  A  That would be C'ede'i Kwe.  12  13  Q  I beg your pardon?  14  15  A  That would be C'ede'i Kwe.  16  17  THE  SPELLER:  231.  18  19  THE  COURT  :  371?  20  21  THE  SPELLER:  231.  22  23  MR.  PLANT  24  25  Q  Is the lake that you call Tedeltl'ets at the top of  26  27  Driftwood Creek?  28  29  A  That creek would be flowing out of Tedeltl'ets and  30  31  flow south and then hit down towards the river.  32  33  Q  And that creek is the C'ede'i Kwe or Driftwood Creek?  34  35  A  Yes.  36  37  Q  Have you ever set traps on Too Coo Kwe?  38  39  A  No.  My mother just hunted and trapped that area.  40  41  MR.  PLANT  :  My spelling for that --  42  43  THE  SPELLER:  366.  44  45  MR.  PLANT  :  Thank you.  46  47  Now, Mrs. Alfred, you told us that you hunt -- and 2851  1 I think you mean nowadays -- that you hunt around  2  3 We'til xoos, number 394, and I'll spell that because I  4  5 think my pronounciation of that is worse than some of  6  7 the others.  W-e-apostrophe-t-i-1-x-o-o-s; is that  8  9 correct?  10  11 THE INTERPRETER:  She — she would like you to rephrase that so  12  13 she knows what you're talking about.  14  15 MR. PLANT:  Perhaps I'll ask for assistance.  16  17 THE SPELLER:  Spell that again.  18  19 MR. PLANT:  It's number 394.  20  21 Mrs. Alfred, I understand that you trap and hunt  22  23 around a place which has a name that I'm going to ask  24  25 Mr. Michell to pronounce because I can't pronounce it.  26  27 THE SPELLER:  We'til xoos.  28  2 9 MR. PLANT:  30  31       Q   That's number 394.  32  33       A   Yes.  I still trap out there now.  34  35       Q   Am I right in assuming that that is a hill south of  36  37 K'aaz Kwe?  38  39       A   Yes.  That hill goes -- goes almost to -- to K'aaz  40  41 Kwe.  42  43       Q   And is it on the south side of K'aaz Kwe?  44  45       A   Yes.  It would be on the south side of K'aaz Kwe.  46  47       Q   And is that a hill that -- well, let me ask you this: 2852  1 Is that hill close to the river or is it far back up  2  3 in the mountains?  4  5       A   It's not a mountain but a hill and that hill all  6  7 goes -- ends down by K'aaz Kwe and where -- K'aaz Kwe  8  9 nuk' and then I go over the hill there and then I go  10  11 towards a lake called Tses nak Han Ts'en Ben and then  12  13 I go around there and then I come back.  14  15 MR. PLANT:  Is Tses nak Han Ts'en Ben 371?  16  17 THE SPELLER:  Yes.  18  19 MR. PLANT:  20  21       Q   When you say you go over the hill, are you talking  22  23 about going to the east?  24  25       A   Yes.  So then we go along the foot -- foot of the  26  27 mountain towards the lake and then we go back over the  28  29 hill and go back down to where we started out.  30  31       Q   Is the place you start out, is that close to the  32  33 Bulkley?  34  35       A   Yes.  36  37       Q   Is there a creek that flows out of the lake, Tses nak  38  39 Han Ts'en Ben?  40  41       A   There is a stream coming out of that lake, Tses nak  42  43 Han Ts'en Ben, but I wouldn't call it a creek.  It's  44  45 just a very small stream that goes into K'aaz Kwe.  46  47       Q   Do you know how far the lake is from the Bulkley? 2853  1       A   I don't -- I don't know the mileage from the river to  2  3 the lake, but we go up there and back in one day.  4  5       Q   How do you travel?  6  7       A  We walk on foot.  8  9       Q   You walk around the trapline on foot?  10  11       A   Yes.  We walk around there.  You wouldn't expect me to  12  13 drive a car up there.  I walk.  14  15       Q   Have you ever had a trapline or set traps on a creek  16  17 or stream called Xaaz Kwe, X-a-a-z-K-w-e?  18  19       A   I don't know Xaaz Kwe.  I'm just wondering if you're  20  21 talking about K'aaz Kwe.  22  23 MR. PLANT:  So that a place -- that's not a place you've ever  24  25 heard of before?  No.  I -- that was a question that I  26  27 thought was responsive to the last answer.  28  29 MR. RUSH:  I think that the name that you are endeavouring to  30  31 pronounce should be spelled -- or pronounced with the  32  33 assistance of Mr. Michell.  34  35 MR. PLANT:  That's an excellent idea.  X-a-a-z-k-w-e.  36  37 THE SPELLER:  Xaaz Kwe.  38  3 9 MR. PLANT:  40  41       Q   Now that you've heard Mr. Michell say it, is that a  42  43 place that you've ever heard of?  44  45       A   No.  I only know K'aaz Kwe.  I never heard of any Xaaz  46  4 7 Kwe. 2854  1 THE COURT:  I think, Mr. Plant, we'll take advantage of that  2  3 last answer to adjourn.  Just excuse me a moment.  4  5 All right.  Yes.  All right.  We will adjourn  6  7 until tomorrow morning.  8  9  10  11 (PROCEEDINGS ADJOURNED UNTIL JANUARY 20, 1988 AT 10:00 A.M.)  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19 I hereby certify the foregoing to be  20 a true and accurate transcript of the  21 proceedings transcribed to the best  22 of my skill and ability.  23  24  25  26 Kathie Tanaka, Official Reporter  27 UNITED REPORTING SERVICE LTD.  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47 2855  9  10  11  12  13


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