Open Collections

Delgamuukw Trial Transcripts

[Proceedings of the Supreme Court of British Columbia 1988-01-15] British Columbia. Supreme Court Jan 15, 1988

Item Metadata

Download

Media
delgamuukw-1.0019296.pdf
Metadata
JSON: delgamuukw-1.0019296.json
JSON-LD: delgamuukw-1.0019296-ld.json
RDF/XML (Pretty): delgamuukw-1.0019296-rdf.xml
RDF/JSON: delgamuukw-1.0019296-rdf.json
Turtle: delgamuukw-1.0019296-turtle.txt
N-Triples: delgamuukw-1.0019296-rdf-ntriples.txt
Original Record: delgamuukw-1.0019296-source.json
Full Text
delgamuukw-1.0019296-fulltext.txt
Citation
delgamuukw-1.0019296.ris

Full Text

 2721  1 January 15, 1987  2 Vancouver, B.C.  3  4 THE REGISTRAR:  Order in court.  In the Supreme Court of British  5 Columbia, Friday, the 15th day of January, 1988.  6 Calling the matter of Delgamuukw against Her Majesty  7 the Queen, my lord.  8 THE COURT:  Mr. Rush?  9 MADELINE ALFRED:  Resumed  10  11 EXAMINATION IN CHIEF BY MR. RUSH CONTINUED:  12 Q   Thank you.  13 Now, Mrs. Alfred, I want to return for a moment to  14 the feast at which Henry succeeded to the name of Wah  15 Tah K'eght, and yesterday you told us that other  16 chiefs of the Wet'suwet'en spoke at the end of that  17 feast, and you told us some of the things that they  18 said.  I wanted to ask you if those other chiefs  19 talked about the territory, and particularly Wah Tah  20 K'eght's territory?  21 A  When -- when they speak on it, or they spoke on it,  22 they -- they said that the territory goes with the  2 3 name.  24 Q   Did they explain about the territory?  Did they say  25 anything about the territory?  26 A  When they speak about the territory, they just -- they  27 just say that -- that the territory goes with the  28 name, and then -- but the -- they are -- they are  29 taught about the territory beforehand.  30 Q   And when the chiefs who spoke said the territory went  31 with the name, was that understood or -- to your  32 knowledge, was that understood by others at the feast?  33 A   Yes.  34 Q   They knew what -- did they know what territory was  35 being referred to?  36 A   Yes.  37 Q   Mrs. Alfred, how -- how do the people, members of the  38 house of Wah Tah K'eght, how do they know about the  39 territory of Wah Tah K'eght?  How do they learn about  40 it?  41 A   Our -- our grandfathers and grandparents teach us the  42 territory and the names, as did our ancestors before.  4 3 Q   And do you do the same?  44 A   Yes.  45 Q   Mrs. Alfred, are there many feasts -- many feasts that  46 are conducted at Moricetown by the various clans?  47 A   Yes. 2722  1  Q  2  3  A  4  Q  5  6  A  7  Q  8  9  10  11  A  12  Q  13  14  15  16  A  17  Q  18  A  19  Q  20  A  21  Q  22  23  24  A  25  26  27  Q  28  A  29  Q  30  31  A  32  Q  33  34  A  35  Q  36  A  37 THE  COURT  3 8 MR.  RUSH:  39  Q  40  A  41  Q  42  A  43  4 4 MR.  RUSH:  45  46  47 THE  COURT  Throughout your lifetime, have you attended the feasts  at Moricetown?  Yes.  And you do -- you continue to attend them up to the  present time?  Yes.  Okay.  And is -- the practice that is followed at the  feasts that you've attended, have they -- have the  practice and those feasts been conducted in the same  way?  Yes.  It is still the same.  I want to show you, Mrs. Alfred, a photograph that is  at Tab 11 of the book.  It's 59573.  Mrs. Alfred, do you recognize what this photograph  shows here?  The gathering of Hagwilget a long time ago.  Is this a feast?  Yes.  This feast was conducted outside in the open air?  Yes.  It was outside.  The feasts that you've described in your evidence so  far have been feasts that were conducted inside a  hall.  Did they used to hold feasts outside like this?  On a nice day they would set up seats outside and hold  their feasts outside, but they also had halls at that  time.  Okay.  You say this feast occurred at Hagwilget?  Yes.  And do you recognize any of the buildings in this  photograph as buildings that you know?  On the left-hand corner is Longdale's building.  Is this -- the left-hand corner, is this the building  here?  Smokehouse.  My lord, this is the building.  And that small --  :  I'm sorry.  Did he give a name for the building?  Longdale's.  Was that the name of a man or a family?  It was a woman's name.  A woman's name.  Okay.  Now --  That building just above that is Jimmy Michell's  sister's house.  All right.  Jimmy Michell's sister's house is the  one -- sorry.  Is this Jimmy Michell's sister's house  here?  :  The left of the Ford. 2723  1  MR.  RUSH:  2  3  THE  COURT  4  MR.  RUSH:  5  Q  6  7  A  8  9  MR.  RUSH:  10  11  12  13  THE  REGIS1  14  15  MR.  RUSH:  16  Q  17  18  19  20  21  22  A  23  Q  24  25  26  27  28  A  29  Q  30  A  31  Q  32  33  A  34  35  36  37  Q  38  39  40  41  42  A  43  44  MR.  RUSH:  45  46  47  It's to the right -- the left of the Ford, that's  correct.  And it's also right of Londale's house.  :  Yes.  All right.  Now, was there any other building in there  that you know, Mrs. Alfred?  The one on the right-hand corner at the top, you can  barely see, is a church building.  All right.  Okay.  Upper right-hand corner  practically in the corner is the -- a white -- the  outlines of a white building, which is the church,  marked as the next exhibit, please.  129.  Photograph)  I'd  like   that  ?RAR:      Exhibit  (EXHIBIT   129:  I'd like to show Mrs. Alfred the next photograph at  Tab 12 of the same binder. Mrs. -- this is Tab 12.  Thank you.  Mrs. Alfred, is this a photograph taken from the  same feast as is contained in Exhibit 129, the  previous photograph?  Yes.  That's same.  All right.  I want to ask you, there are two men in  white shirts just in the upper left-hand portion of  the photograph standing, apparently doing something,  and I wonder if you could tell his lordship what they  are doing?  They're cutting up moose hide.  And after it's cut, what happens to it?  After it's been cut, it's passed around to the guests.  All right.  Is there -- is there any person in this  photograph that you can identify?  I couldn't recognize anybody there because they dress  a little differently.  This lady that is bent over  looks like Johnny David's mother or -- or Donald  Gray's mother.  All right.  That's the lady that's bent over on the  right-hand side of the photograph with the kerchief or  her head?  Mrs. Alfred, do you recognize any of the --  any of the buildings in the photograph at the back  behind the people?  The picture -- the building or house right in the  corner, this is Old Dennis.  All right.  Just -- if we can just pause there,  that's the building, my lord, in the upper right-hand  corner, and Mrs. Alfred pointed to the building  immediately to the -- on the right corner of the 2724  MR.  THE  MR. RUSH  THE  9  10  11 MR.  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  2 5 MR.  26  27  28  2 9 THE  3 0 MR.  31  32  33 THE  34 MR.  35  36  37  38 THE  3 9 MR.  40  41  42  43 THE  4 4 MR.  45  46  47  photograph, which is this one here.  PLANT:  The roof is in the upper right-hand corner.  WITNESS:  And the house to the left of that building that  you -- you just identified is MacKenzie's house.  MacKenzie's house.  And that's the one to the -- as  has been described, just to the left of the one  identified in the right-hand corner.  Could that be  Exhibit 130, please?  REGISTRAR:  Exhibit 130.  (EXHIBIT 130:  Photograph)  RUSH:  Q   Now, Mrs. Alfred, I understand after -- shortly after  that feast, when you were a little girl you obtained  your first name, the name of Wiloss?  Yes.  It was after when they had a gathering in a  hall.  Was -- was this in Big Seymore's hall?  Yes.  Okay.  And I understand that you had your eyebrows  painted when you took the name of Wiloss?  Yes.  When you receive your first name, they call that  Bii Holtl'es.  Bii Holtl'es.  That's when you receive the first name.  All right.  Now, I'm just going to pause here.  Mr.  Michell, Wiloss, can you give us the spelling on that?  I don't think we have it.  Is Wiloss on the list?  402.  It's under —  SPELLER: 512.  RUSH:  Just -- on my list Wiloss is spelled  w-i-1-underline-o-s-s and on this list there is no  number beside that name.  402 on the other list is something different.  Yes.  That's right.  I have received an updated list  this morning in alphabetical order and Wiloss is on  the last page below 402, and I think it's intended  that a number was to be beside that name.  On the last page?  Yes.  You haven't received this yet.  I'm going to  give it to you right now.  All right.  This is the  numerical list, my lord, and which the last appears as  512.  512.  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  R USH  COURT  RUSH:  COURT  RUSH:  COURT  RUSH:  Q  Yes.  Now, Mrs. Alfred, am I right in what I  understand to be the case that at that feast where you  took the name of Wiloss, you painted your eyebrows -- 2725  MR.  1  2  3  4  5  6 THE  7 MR.  8 MR.  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  2 0 MR.  21  22 THE  23  2 4 MR.  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  or you painted your eyebrows and below your eyes were  charcoal?  A   Yes.  PLANT:  Before proceeding, there was a word that I don't  have the spelling for.  REGISTRAR:  It's 515.  PLANT:  RUSH:  Q  I don't have the list that you're referring to.  Just a moment.  Mrs. Alfred, the feast at which the  name -- first name is taken, you gave us a name for  that?  A   Hanadit'ess.  Q   I don't think that's the name that you gave us  earlier.  A  When you receive your first name after the process  when you -- when you paint your eyebrows and face,  it's called Ts' o 1 tl'ees.  Q   Ts' o 1 tl'ees?  A   Ts' o 1 tl'ees.  RUSH:  All right.  Now, that is the name we don't have.  Would you give us the spelling for that, please?  SPELLER:  Ts' o 1 tl'ees,  T-s-apostrophe-o-l-t-l-apostrophe-e-e-s.  RUSH:  Q  A  Q  A  A  Q  A  Q  Now, Mrs. Alfred, why did you paint your eyebrows and  paint under your eyes at that feast when you took your  first name?  I don't know, but they just go through that process,  and then they put you -- that's when you receive your  very first name.  Did it have anything to do with your training?  Yes.  That's to indicate -- by painting your face,  that's -- that would indicate that you're receiving  your first name so you would be -- would be trained.  Okay.  And was it at Hagwilget, Mrs. Alfred, that you  took your first name at Big Seymore's hall?  Yes.  All right.  I want to ask you, Mrs. Alfred, now, about  something you gave evidence on yesterday about Wah Tah  K'eght's Kungax.  And you told us about how the Kungax  was performed where Wah Tah K'eght uses a cane or a  staff.  Is there a song that is sung at the time that  the Kungax is performed?  Yes.  And does the song -- does the song relate to the use  of the staff by Wah Tah K'eght when he does the  Kungax? 2726  1 A   Yes.  2 Q   And where does the song come from?  What's the origin  3 of the song, Mrs. Alfred?  4 A   That was our -- that was Tah lus' song.  5 MR. RUSH:  Tah lus is 400.  And can you tell me, what did the  6 song --  7 THE SPELLER:  Sorry.  It's 498.  8 MR. RUSH:  Look at 400 and I think —  9 THE REGISTRAR:  That's Tah tl'as.  498 I have Tah lus.  10 MR. RUSH:  11 Q   Okay.  You said this is Tah lus' song; is that right?  12 A   Yes.  13 Q   Okay.  Can you just say Tah lus for us again so I have  14 the sound?  15 A   Tah lus.  16 MR. RUSH:  Okay.  And that's 498, is it?  17 THE SPELLER:  Yes.  18 MR. PLANT:  May I have the spelling for it?  19 THE COURT:  T-a-h-1-underline-u-s.  20 MR. RUSH:  Thank you.  Now, Mrs. Alfred, can you tell us — I  21 don't want you to sing the song.  I want you to tell  22 us the story that goes with the song.  23 THE COURT:  Before you do that, is Tah lus a person?  2 4 MR. RUSH:  Yes.  25 THE COURT:  It was said to be his song.  2 6 MR. RUSH:  27 Q   That's a person, a historical figure, as you will see.  28 Now, Mrs. Alfred, would you just tell us the story  29 of Tah lus?  30 A   That historical story came from the time when this  31 Nuu'tseni stole this rare snare spot.  That's where  32 that song originated from.  33 Q   Okay.  Tell us what happened?  34 A  When the -- when he first caught this -- Tah lus first  35 caught -- Tah lus first caught this Nuu'tseni at that  36 place where setting snares for bears, he gave him a  37 warning, but the second time he caught him, that is  38 when he took this cedar bark rope and put it around  39 Nuu'tseni's neck and strangled him with it.  So that's  4 0 where that song came from.  When he -- when he  41 strangled that man, that's -- that was where the song  42 originated from.  43 Q   Okay.  Now, the place where the bear snare is located,  44 can you tell us where that is?  45 A   This place was at around the general area of Tac'es  46 kwe where the bear had a water hole where he drinks  47 out of. 2727  1 THE COURT:  I'm missing a few names, Mr. Rush.  I was trying to  2 take it down in narrative form, but I have it that the  3 story came from at the time I took it to be a person  4 by the name starting with S; told us about a bear  5 snare spot, caught somebody else at the place he gave  6 in the morning.  7 MR. RUSH:  The he is the Nuu'tseni and that's 311.  8 THE COURT:  Nuu'tseni is the strangler?  9 MR. PLANT:  Stranglee.  10 MR. RUSH:  Is the recipient of the strangling.  11 THE COURT:  And that name, please.  12 MR. RUSH:  The Nuu'tseni?  311.  And the person doing the  13 strangling is Tah lus.  14 THE COURT:  Oh, yes.  All right.  15 MR. RUSH:  And the place where this is occurring is a watering  16 hole of the bear where the bear snare is located and  17 that's at Tac'es kwe.  18 THE SPELLER:  381.  19 MR. RUSH:  20 Q   And that is 381.  Now, the place, Mrs. Alfred, Tac'es  21 kwe, is that close by to the village of  Moricetown,  22 K'ayah Wig'et.  23 A   Yes.  The water hole of the bear would be on the swamp  24 towards Tac'es kwe.  25 Q Okay.  26 A And the area is not too far away from Moricetown.  27 Q And is that on Wah Tah K'eght's territory?  28 A Yes.  29 MR. PLANT:  I'm sorry.  I don't have — I can't find 381.  30 That's why I need the spelling.  31 THE COURT:  T-a-c-apostrophe-e-s-k-w-e.  32 MR. PLANT:  Thank you.  33 MR. RUSH:  34 Q   Now, Mrs. Alfred, when this story was told to you and  35 by others, was there -- were there words of a song  36 that were used at the time of the telling of the story  37 that relate to the story?  38 A   I just know the lyrics to that song, which is  39 "Nuu'tseni ndu K'en diin dee 'A yah dii nii".  40 MR. RUSH:  Okay.  That's the Wet'suwet'en.  And how does that  41 translate, Mr. Holland?  42 THE COURT:  I'm sorry.  Are you going to translate for us now  43 the lyrics?  Those three words are part of the lyrics.  44 THE TRANSLATOR:  Yes.  Those words are the "Nuu'tseni, what's  45 hurting you?  Why are you saying 'Ayah?"  4 6 MR. RUSH:  47       Q   And is that -- are those words repeated in 2728  Wet'suwet'en when the story is told?  Yes.  And when the words "'Ayah" are used, what does that  indicate in the story?  That -- of course, he's been hurt and that is why he's  saying -- he's saying -- that's the expression of  hurting.  I see.  All right.  And the -- here is the Nuu'tseni;  is that right?  Tah lus was singing that song.  And it was the Nuu'tseni who was hurting?  That's what  I'm trying to understand.  Yes.  And the Nuu'tseni was a person from -- from the east;  is that right, a man who came to your territory from  the east?  Yes.  It's probably -- it's probably from the east.  It's -- it's a historical story way before my time.  At that time people really protected their territories  and that's why they would kill for it.  Okay.  Now, does -- does the story that you've told us  and the lyrics of the song that you've given us, is  that owned by the house of Wah Tah K'eght?  Yes.  How did you learn the story and the song, lyrics?  Yes.  That's -- that story has been handed down from  generation to generation.  The song goes with it.  Did your mother and your uncle tell you this story?  Yes.  They told them stories.  And has this story been repeated in the feast hall?  No.  32 THE COURT:  Sorry?  33 THE WITNESS:  No.  34 MR. RUSH:  35 Q   Has the story -- or the song ever been used at the  36 feast?  37 A   Yes.  They use it.  38 MR. RUSH:  Okay.  And how do they use the story at the feast?  3 9 MR. PLANT:  Song.  4 0 MR. RUSH:  41 Q   The song.  42 A  When they going to -- when they going to hook the  43 chiefs, that's when they sing the song.  44 Q   Okay.  And when the -- when the chief is hooked, the  45 song is sung at the same time?  46 A   Yes.  47 Q   Okay.  And —  1  2  A  3  Q  4  5  A  6  7  8  Q  9  10  A  11  Q  12  13  A  14  Q  15  16  17  A  18  19  20  21  Q  22  23  24  A  25  Q  26  A  27  28  Q  29  A  30  Q  31  A 2729  1  A  2  3  4  5  MR.  RUSH:  6  THE  COURT  7  8  9  10  MR.  RUSH:  11  12  THE  COURT  13  MR.  RUSH:  14  THE  COURT  15  THE  SPELL  16  THE  COURT  17  MR.  RUSH:  18  Q  19  20  21  A  22  23  Q  24  25  A  26  Q  27  A  28  Q  29  30  A  31  32  33  Q  34  35  36  37  A  38  39  40  Q  41  A  42  Q  43  A  44  45  Q  46  A  47  Q  After they -- after they finish with that song, and  then the person that was hooked would get up and then  go into his own Kungax.  They do that with each  individual chief.  Okay.  :  Mr. Rush, may I interrupt, please, to ask the  witness when she gave the lyrics "What's hurting you?  Why are you saying 'A yah", is 'A yah number 201,  a-h-y-apostrophe-e-a-h?  No.  I think 'A yah is something like ouch.  It's an  expression as opposed to a feeling of pain.  :  So it's not 201?  It is not 201, no.  :  Can we have a spelling for ouch?  3R:  Apostrophe-a-y-a-h.  :  Thank you.  Now, Mrs. Alfred, at Wah Tah K'eght's feast when Henry  took the name, was someone hired specially to sing the  song that you've just given us the lyrics for?  When -- when he went through to Kungax, Thomas George  went along with him to sing the song.  Okay.  And so Thomas George sang the song "Nuu'tseni,  why are you hurting" at that feast?  Yes.  Has Emma Michell ever sung the song?  Yes.  She knows the song.  Okay.  You -- the Kungax that is done by Henry, is  this known as the Kungax of the old man with the cane?  There's another performance that's a little different.  When he's sitting down as a guest and he gets hooked,  that is when he uses that cane and the old man.  Okay.  I just want to understand the two performances.  When Henry performed his Kungax at the feast where he  took Wah Tah K'eght, did he perform it as the old man  with the cane?  At -- at the time when he takes his name, the father  clan would come with him when he comes in and that is  when he uses Tah lus' song.  I see.  But he also uses the old man and the cane.  At the same time?  That's when -- when he first receives the name,  that's -- his uncles would come in with him.  Now, you said --  Yes.  It would be from the father clan.  Okay.  All right.  Now, you said that when -- at 2730  1 another feast when Henry as Wah Tah K'eght is being --  2 is being hooked or someone performs their Kungax to  3 him, does he then use the Kungax in response of the  4 old man and the cane?  5 A   Yes.  That's what he would use in response.  6 Q   Okay.  All right.  Now, Mrs. Alfred, at the feast  7 where Henry received his name, were the Kungax and the  8 song and the story about Tah lus, were those said at  9 the feast?  10 A   These historical stories are told amongst our elders  11 and grandparents, but at the feast the song itself  12 only is used there.  13 Q   Along with the Kungax?  14 A   Yes.  15 Q   All right.  Mrs. Alfred, I want to ask you about  16 another history of your clan, the Laksilyu, and I  17 wanted to ask you the history of the girl who became a  18 frog.  Now, can you tell us that history?  19 A   The story goes this girl used to go into -- to  20 Cottonwood Grove and she used to go there all the time  21 and then all of a sudden one day she disappeared and  22 never came back.  And -- and then when -- after a bit,  23 there's two little frogs are packing one another.  24 They come to the door and they keep trying to come in  25 and they would throw them out, and this one man said,  26 "There must be a reason behind them little frogs  27 packing one of them coming in.  Maybe you should let  28 them come in".  So they took a cedar bark mat and  29 placed it in front of the -- the person that had  30 lost -- or had a missing daughter and them two little  31 frogs, they come in and they sat on that mat in front  32 of that -- of that man whose daughter was missing, and  33 then they -- and from there, they figured out what was  34 happening, and then the frogs, they went back to the  35 pond whence they came and they figured out what was  36 taking place.  So the people from that house, they  37 took and they dug a trench towards the river to drain  38 that pond.  39 The way it was told, after they drained the pond  40 there, these big frogs, they started going towards the  41 river and then -- and this other frog was following  42 him and then apparently it was the daughter that was  43 missing, and she looked back and told her people, "My  44 body is no good now, so just let me go", because she  45 had the body of a frog and it was -- just her face was  46 still a human face.  So that's when they let her go  47 back into -- back to the river with the male frog. 2731  1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  12  13 THE  14  15 MR.  16 THE  17 THE  18 THE  19 THE  2 0 MR.  21  22  23  24  2 5 MR.  2 6 THE  2 7 MR.  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36 THE  37  3 8 MR.  39 THE  4 0 MR.  41 THE  42  4 3 MR.  44  45  46  47  Our grandparents told us these stories which were  handed down.  Q   The village -- the Cottonwoods that you referred to at  the beginning of the story, was that near a village?  A   These -- this pond was down from Moricetown and near  Tsee K'al K'e yex, and this pond was directly behind  Hagwilnegh's smokehouse.  That is now -- it's been  drained out, and there's a highway going through there  now.  Q   Okay.  And is that Tsee K'al K'e yex, or what was the  Wet'suwet'en word?  A   Tsee K'al K'e yex.  COURT:  And what is that, please, the name of the place  where the pond is?  RUSH:  That's right.  SPELLER:  398.  COURT:  Sorry?  SPELLER:  398.  COURT:  Thank you.  RUSH:  Q   Was the girl who went to the pond, was she the  daughter of a chief?  A   This girl was a daughter of a chief whom you would  call Sk'ay za'  RUSH:  Sk'ay za'?  SPELLER:  Sk'ay za', S-k-apostrophe-a-y-z-a-apostrophe.  RUSH:  Q   What does that mean?  A   Sk'ay za' would be a status that is given to daughters  of chiefs, sons and daughters of chiefs.  That would  be the same line as a prince or a princess.  Q   Now, Mrs. Alfred, the place where the pond was  located, you said was Tsee K'al K'e yex, and that's  the same name as your -- the house of Wah Tah K'eght?  A   Yes.  COURT:  I'm sorry, Mr. Rush.  I don't understand that.  I'm  not even sure I've got the right name.  RUSH:  398.  COURT:  Oh, is it 398?  RUSH:  Yes.  That's right, isn't it?  Yes.  COURT:  That's another -- another word for -- or synonym  for --  RUSH:  Q   Tsee K'al K'e yex is the house on a flat rock.  I'm  going to ask the witness if she was referring to the  place of a flat rock, which I think is what she was  referring to. 2732  1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  15 MR.  16  17  18 THE  19 MR.  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27 THE  2 8 MR.  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  4 3 MR.  44 THE  4 5 MR.  46  47  A  Q  A  Q  A  RUSH:  COURT  RUSH:  Q  A  Q  A  COURT  RUSH:  Q  A  Q  A  A  RUSH  SPELLER:  RUSH:  Q   And  A   Yes  The place, Mrs. Alfred, where the -- the pond was  located where the Cottonwoods were, is that at Tsee  K'al K'e yex?  This pond or area would be at the foot of the hill,  the foot of the hill before the highway went through.  It would be near Tsee K'al.  Near Tsee K'al?  Yes.  And the -- it would be not too far behind  Hagwilnegh's smokehouse.  Yes.  I was -- I just wanted to determine if Tsee K'al  Ke' yex, if that means a place of a flat rock?  Yes.  It would be on top of -- on top of the flat  rock, but that house is named Tsee K'al K'e yex  because it's right on the -- on the flat rock.  Okay.  Yex is house, my lord, and so at 398, yex is  house on a flat rock and what the witness was, I  think, describing is the place of a flat rock.  :  Yes.  Now, Mrs. Alfred, your house, and you are a member of  the Laksilyu clan -- and did the -- did the story of  the girl who became a frog, does that relate to the  crest of the Laksilyu clan?  Yes.  The Laksilyu had a little frog crest.  All right.  Now --  And Gilseyhu had a big frog.  :  I'm sorry?  And the Gilseyhu, that is the big -- she was saying  the Gilseyhu is the big frog and the Laksilyu is the  little frog.  Is the story of the girl who became a frog, is  that part of the oral history of the Wet'suwet'en  people?  Yes.  It was a historical story.  And does that have a name in Wet'suwet'en?  A  historical story, does that have a particular name?  No.  They said it was just referred to as historical  story.  I think the word that you've used in Wet'suwet'en is  G'idee dee'; is that right?  Yes.  Okay.  Can you spell G'idee dee', please?  G-apostrophe-i-d-e-e-d-e-e-apostrophe.  is a G'idee dee' a true storyl 2733  1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  Q   Is this story, Mrs. Alfred, this G'idee dee' of the  girl who became a frog, is that a story which you have  told to other people, including your children and  grandchildren?  A   Yes.  There's always some -- some guidance to -- or  wisdom comes out of these stories.  That's why we  always retell these stories.  MR. RUSH:  Now, my lord, I was going to go to another area.  If  you wish to take the morning break, this would be  convenient.  THE COURT:  Yes.  Thank you.  THE REGISTRAR:  Order in court.  Court is adjourned for the  morning recess.  (PROCEEDINGS ADJOURNED)  I hereby certify the foregoing to be  a true and accurate transcript of the  proceedings transcribed to the best  of my skill and ability.  Kathie Tanaka, Official Reporter  UNITED REPORTING SERVICE LTD. 2734  1        (PROCEEDINGS RECONVENED AT 11:30 A.M.)  2  3  4  5 THE REGISTRAR:  Order in court.  6  7 THE COURT:  Mr. Rush.  8  9 MR. RUSH:  10  11       Q   Thank you.  I wonder, Madam Registrar, if we could  12  13 refer to the witness tab 13 of the document book.  14  15 I'm going to show you a photograph, Mrs. Alfred,  16  17 and ask you if you can identify this photograph for  18  19 us?  20  21       A   Yes.  22  23       Q   What is this?  What does this show?  24  25       A   Picture on the right, that's smokehouse.  It's  26  27 Hagwilnegh's.  28  29       Q   All right.  Just before we start with the individual  30  31 houses, is the -- is the photograph a photograph of  32  33 the village of K'ayah Wig'et or Moricetown?  34  35       A   Yes, that's the place.  36  37       Q   Okay.  And the photograph is -- is looking across the  38  39 Bulkley River over at the village?  40  41       A   That -- the picture is on the village side.  42  43       Q   Yes.  And did you see the village when the village  44  45 looked like this?  46  47       A   Yes. 2735  1       Q   All right.  And you can identify some of the -- the --  2  3 the smokehouses in the photograph, can you?  4  5       A   Yes.  6  7       Q   And just before we do that, there are -- there are two  8  9 bridges in the foreground of -- the foreground of the  10  11 photograph, and there appears to be a horse-drawn  12  13 Ford -- horse-drawn buggy on one of them.  Do you see  14  15 that?  16  17       A   Yes.  18  19       Q   And do you remember seeing the two bridges there like  20  21 that?  22  23       A   The one -- one is the older bridge, and then the other  24  25 one was the newer bridge.  26  27       Q   Okay.  The one on the left is the -- is the older  28  29 bridge, is it?  30  31       A   The one on the left, it's -- that's the older bridge.  32  33       Q   Okay.  Now, I want you to tell me if you can point out  34  35 some of the smokehouses, and I think when you've --  36  37 when I first asked you about this, you showed me  38  39 Hagwilnegh's house?  40  41       A   Pointing to the larger smokehouse on the right.  42  43       Q   All right.  Is that this smokehouse that I'm pointing  44  45 to?  46  47       A   Yes, Hagwilnegh. 2736  1       Q   I'm going to put an "H" on that smokehouse.  All  2  3 right.  Now, I want you to -- to tell me if you know  4  5 this house and who owns that one or who owned that  6  7 one?  8  9       A   That's Jack Joseph's smokehouse.  10  11       Q   Okay.  I'm going to put a "J" on Jack Joseph's  12  13 smokehouse.  Okay.  And can you tell me, Mrs. Alfred,  14  15 between Hagwilnegh's and Jack Joseph's smokehouse  16  17 there are two little -- what appear to be two little  18  19 houses back up the hill.  What are those?  20  21       A   Them -- them are for storage.  22  23       Q   What's stored in those?  24  25       A   Them are for smoked salmon or -- or dried meat, which  26  27 is stored there for winter.  28  29       Q   Okay.  Now, from Jack Joseph's smokehouse that we have  30  31 marked with a "J" and moving to the left, there are  32  33 again three smaller houses.  Are those storage houses  34  35 too?  36  37       A   Yes, they are.  That's storage places again.  38  39       Q   Okay.  40  41       A   Yes.  42  43       Q   Now, I'm going to -- I'm going to point to a house  44  45 here, which is a larger structure beyond those three  46  47 smaller ones.  Can you tell me whose smokehouse that 2737  1 is?  2  3       A   That's Charlie Eisidor.  4  5       Q   And if I put an "I" on this —  6  7       A   The whole clan uses that -- them buildings.  8  9 MR. RUSH:  Okay.  10  11 THE COURT:  Is that a house or a smokehouse?  12  13 MR. RUSH:  14  15       Q   It's a smokehouse.  16  17 This is a smokehouse, is it, Mrs. Alfred?  18  19       A   Yes.  20  21       Q   Okay.  Now, I want to ask you if you can identify this  22  23 structure here as a smokehouse?  24  25       A   That's Namox's smokehouse.  26  27       Q   Okay.  And is this Namox's smokehouse?  I'll put an  28  29 "N" on that.  30  31       A   Yes.  32  33       Q   Okay.  Now, I'd like you to go to the upper bench.  34  35       A   That's -- that one there in the middle, which he was  36  37 pointing at, is Madeek's smokehouse.  38  39       Q   You put your finger here.  Is that Madeek?  40  41       A   Yeah.  42  43 MR. RUSH:  All right.  My lord, it's the large smokehouse on the  44  45 second level, if I can -- if you can perceive it that  46  47 way in the photograph, slightly to the left of centre. 2738  1 THE COURT:  Yes.  2  3 MR. RUSH:  4  5       Q   That's Madeek.  6  7 And I've put an "M" on that, Mrs. Alfred.  Now, I  8  9 wonder if you can tell me to the left of the house  10  11 that I put an "M" on here, is that a smokehouse?  12  13       A   No, that's a house.  That's a winter home.  14  15       Q   All right.  Okay.  Do you know who owned this winter  16  17 home or who used it?  18  19       A   It was the lady -- that -- that -- that house and the  20  21 smokehouse beside it belongs to a lady by the name --  22  23 person by the name of Niilly.  24  25       Q   Okay.  26  27       A   They were relatives of Peter Pierre.  28  29       Q   Okay.  Now, the winter house that you pointed to, is  30  31 that this house that my pen is pointing at, that  32  33 belongs to Niilly?  34  35       A   Yes.  36  37 MR. RUSH:  Niilly.  All right.  I'm going to put an "N" on that  38  39 house.  40  41 MR. MACKENZIE:  You've got an "N" on Namox.  42  43 MR. RUSH:  Maybe I'll have the spelling, Mr. Mitchell, and I'll  44  45 put the second letter.  46  47 THE TRANSLATOR:  Niilly, N-i-i-1-l-y. 2739  1 MR. RUSH:  2  3       Q   Thank you.  I'll put an "NI" on Niilly then.  And you  4  5 say just to the left of Niilly's winter house is  6  7 another smokehouse that belonged to Niilly; is that  8  9 right?  10  11       A   Yes.  12  13       A   That's -- that's all I -- I can recognize right now.  14  15 The rest of them are graveyards.  16  17       Q   Okay.  All right.  18  19       A   Or grave sites.  20  21       Q   Okay.  The house to the far left here can you  22  23 recognize?  24  25       A   I -- I forgotten about that one.  26  27       Q   Is that a smokehouse?  28  29       A   That's a smokehouse.  30  31       Q   Okay.  Now, I'm going to take you back to the centre  32  33 of the top bench where we've marked a smokehouse with  34  35 an "M" for Madeek.  To the right of that you see  36  37 another house.  Is that -- do you see this house to  38  39 the right?  40  41       A   Yes.  That's a winter home also.  42  43       Q   All right.  And do you know who had that winter home?  44  45       A   It -- it could be Madeek's house because it's -- it's  46  47 right close to it. 2740  1       Q   It could be Madeek's winter house?  2  3       A   Yes.  4  5       Q   Okay.  Okay.  Are you able to identify the buildings  6  7 to the right of the house that could be the winter  8  9 house of Madeek, and I'm showing you this structure  10  11 here?  12  13       A   Some were some -- some winter homes a long time ago.  14  15       Q   All right.  And over to the right here, are you able  16  17 to identify this structure?  That's the building again  18  19 to the right of --  20  21       A   That's a grave site.  22  23       Q   All right.  24  25       A  And all the rest of these little buildings are grave  26  27 sites.  28  29       Q   Now, the buildings to the -- to the right of the  30  31 photograph, the smaller buildings to the right of the  32  33 photograph on the second level, are those the grave  34  35 sites that you've been referring to?  36  37       A   Yes, they're all grave sites.  38  39 MR. RUSH:  All right.  Now —  40  41 MR. PLANT:  Are you going to mark these?  42  4 3 MR. RUSH:  44  45       Q   Yes, I'm happy to mark those with a "G."  46  47 Mrs. Alfred, are these the grave sites, these 2741  1 little buildings here?  2  3       A   Yes, that -- all that area is grave sites.  4  5       Q   Okay.  All right.  I'm going to put a "G" on the  6  7 building that is indicated as a grave building here,  8  9 is that right?  10  11       A   Yes.  12  13       Q   And I'm going to put similarly a "G" on the next one  14  15 and this one.  16  17       A   Yes.  18  19       Q   Okay.  All right.  Now, was the cemetery in that area  20  21 where those small buildings are that are marked "G" on  22  23 this photograph?  24  25       A   Yes.  All that area was a cemetery.  26  27       Q   Okay.  Now, Mrs. Alfred, there were some, appear to me  28  29 to be, small buildings in the background to the right  30  31 of the photograph.  Do you recognize those?  32  33       A   That would be part of the village.  34  35 MR. RUSH:  Okay.  I'd like to mark this photograph as the next  36  37 exhibit, please?  38  39 THE REGISTRAR:  Exhibit 131.  40  41 MR. RUSH:  I'm going to make some more reference to it.  42  43 THE COURT:  The number is 121?  44  45 THE REGISTRAR:  131.  46  47 2742  1 (EXHIBIT 131 - PHOTOGRAPH)  2  3  4  5 MR. RUSH:  6  7       Q   Now, Mrs. Alfred, in this -- in this same photograph  8  9 to which we've been making reference, Exhibit 131, the  10  11 smokehouses that are shown in the photograph, which  12  13 you've identified for us, were they used for smoking  14  15 salmon?  16  17       A   Yes, that's for smoking salmon.  And they would --  18  19 they would come there in the summer to -- to make  20  21 fish.  22  23       Q   Okay.  And did sometimes the people stay in the  24  25 smokehouse?  Did they live there in the summer?  26  27       A   Yes, they've lived there.  28  29       Q   Okay.  Now, it may be hard to determine, Mrs. Alfred,  30  31 but beside the smokehouse which you've identified with  32  33 an "N" for Namox, there is a structure here which is  34  35 difficult for me to make out, but can you tell me if  36  37 you recognize what that is?  38  39       A   That -- that is all part of Namox's smokehouse.  The  40  41 smokehouse is just being reconstructed.  And then in  42  43 addition you -- up here is where they would hang the  44  45 fish before they start preparing it to go in here.  46  47       Q   Now, you pointed to the left-hand side of the 2743  1 photograph directly to the left of the structure  2  3 that's marked with an "N" here.  Is that -- this is  4  5 where they prepare the fish?  6  7       A   This is where they would hang the fish to -- to dry  8  9 them up before they start working with them.  10  11 MR. RUSH:  All right.  Thank you.  12  13 THE COURT:  May I see the exhibit, please, for a moment?  Does  14  15 anyone know when the new bridge was built?  16  17 MR. RUSH:  Somebody knows, my lord, but --  18  19 THE COURT:  Yes.  20  21 MR. RUSH:  — Mrs. Alfred is not — cannot recollect the date.  22  23 THE COURT:  All right.  Thank you.  24  2 5 MR. RUSH:  26  27       Q   I'm going to ask one other question which my learned  28  29 friend had some concern about, and if he does, it  30  31 could be that others do too.  Mrs. Alfred, the present  32  33 village of Moricetown is located in this photograph,  34  35 is it not?  I'm referring to Exhibit 131.  36  37       A   The smokehouses are all in the proper places, but the  38  39 present village would be up here in the upper bench.  40  41       Q   And the —  42  43       A   So the village would be up here.  44  45       Q   The witness pointed to what appears to be the field  46  47 behind the upper level of -- of smokehouses in the 2744  1 whole area behind there up to the tree line.  Is that  2  3 right, Mrs. Alfred?  4  5       A   Yes.  6  7       Q   Thank you.  All right.  Thank you.  That will be  8  9 Exhibit 131.  Now, if you will, please, would you  10  11 please place tab 14 before Mrs. Alfred.  12  13 Now, just a moment, Mrs. Alfred.  Now, I'm showing  14  15 you a photograph that's marked 8399.  Now, Mrs.  16  17 Alfred, this shows a different view of the village  18  19 site at Moricetown.  Do you recognize the village site  20  21 as one that you have seen?  22  23       A   Yes, that's the same.  This is where they hang the  24  25 fish up.  26  27 MR. RUSH:  All right.  I'll — just before we do that, I'm  28  29 going -- can this be marked as the next exhibit, and  30  31 I'll just mark it now?  32  33 THE REGISTRAR:  Exhibit 132.  34  35 MR. RUSH:  Thank you.  36  37  38  39 (EXHIBIT 132 - PICTURE)  40  41  42  4 3 MR. RUSH:  44  45       Q   Thank you very much.  Now, you pointed to a structure  46  47 on the left-hand side of the photograph that you said 2745  1 was a place where fish were hung?  2  3       A   Yes.  When the -- when fresh fish is first brought out  4  5 of the water, that's where they hang it.  6  7       Q   Okay.  Now, Mrs. Alfred, do you recognize any of the  8  9 smokehouses that are shown in the foreground of this  10  11 photograph, Exhibit 132?  12  13       A   Yes, I know them.  It's Namox smokehouse, and Charlie  14  15 Eisidor, and Jack Joseph.  16  17       Q   Okay.  That's -- we're seeing the photograph --  18  19       A   It's the same thing.  20  21       Q   All right.  Is this the Namox house?  22  2 3       A   The Namox.  24  25       Q   I'm going to put the "N" on Exhibit 132.  And is this  26  27 the Charlie Eisidor smokehouse?  28  29       A   Yes.  30  31       Q   I'll put an "I" there.  And this is the Jack Joseph --  32  33       A   Jack Joseph's.  34  35       Q   All right.  Now, Mrs. Alfred, do you recognize any of  36  37 the houses at the top bench that you haven't  38  39 identified before?  Just to go behind the smokehouse  40  41 level in the foreground to the top bench, do you see  42  43 any there?  44  45       A   I -- I already told you that.  They're all the same.  46  47       Q   Okay.  All right.  And I think there is a -- a clearer 2746  1 shot of the cemetery houses on the right-hand side of  2  3 the upper-bench structures on the photograph.  Are  4  5 these the -- the grave houses to the right?  I'm  6  7 pointing to the large -- the larger of five grave  8  9 houses.  One, two, three, four, five.  10  11       A   Yes, they're all grave sites.  12  13       Q   Okay.  14  15       A   This all used to be grave site when it was left.  16  17       Q   Okay.  Now -- okay.  Now, these -- these structures  18  19 are not standing at Moricetown today, and I'm pointing  20  21 to the ones in the back bench, is that right?  22  23       A   Yes.  Yes, that's all -- they're not there any more  24  25 because there's a highway goes through there.  And all  26  27 these smokehouses are not there any more either.  28  29       Q   All right.  Okay.  Thank you.  Just before I leave  30  31 this photograph, Mrs. Alfred, do you -- Jack Joseph,  32  33 what clan was Jack Joseph in?  34  35       A   Laksilyu.  36  37       Q   And Charlie Eisidor?  38  39       A   Gilseyhu.  40  41       Q   And Namox?  42  43       A   Tsayu.  44  45 THE COURT:  I'm sorry.  46  47 MR. RUSH:  Tsayu.  I think that's T-s-a-y-u. 2747  1 THE COURT:  I didn't get the second one.  2  3 MR. RUSH:  Gilseyhu.  4  5 THE COURT:  Jack Joseph was Gilseyhu?  6  7 MR. RUSH:  No, Jack Joseph was Laksilyu.  8  9 THE INTERPRETER:  Laksilyu.  10  11 MR. RUSH:  Yes.  And Gilseyhu, what's the number on that?  12  13 THE TRANSLATOR:  132.  14  15 MR. RUSH:  132, my lord.  16  17 THE COURT:  And the name Gilseyhu?  What was that?  18  19 MR. RUSH:  20  21       Q   Charlie Eisidor.  22  23 And you pointed out Madeek's house in Exhibit 131,  24  25 and what -- what clan is Madeek in?  26  2 7       A   Gitdumden.  28  2 9       Q   Okay.  And do you remember when the smokehouses were  30  31 taken down?  32  33       A   Once -- once that highway went through, that's when --  34  35 when all them buildings were -- smokehouses  36  37 disappeared after that.  38  39       Q   Okay.  All right.  I'm going to show you the next  40  41 photograph, which is found at tab 15 of the document  42  43 book.  It's under number 82992.  Do you recognize what  44  45 is shown in this photograph, Mrs. Alfred?  46  47       A   That -- that is a real old bridge, which I've never 2748  1 seen.  2  3       Q   All right.  You've not —  4  5       A   That bridge was -- was -- could have been the one that  6  7 they used to reconstructure all the time.  It's way  8  9 before my time.  10  11       Q   Okay.  I want to ask you about the -- the structure  12  13 that's in the middle of the photograph, if you  14  15 recognize that structure?  16  17       A   Yes, I only know that one in the middle.  That would  18  19 be Tsee K'al.  20  21       Q   Tsee K'al.  Is that from your house?  22  23       A   Yes.  24  25       Q   Okay.  And can you tell me who was using that  26  27 structure during your lifetime?  28  29       A  My grandmother and my uncles, they all used that.  30  31       Q   Okay.  Does the -- does the clan -- does the whole  32  33 clan have a right to use the smokehouse or does the  34  35 whole house have a right to use it?  36  37       A   The Tsee K'al Wet'en, they all use that house.  38  39       Q   Okay.  40  41       A   Or smokehouse.  42  43 THE COURT:  I didn't get the name.  Was it Tsee K'al?  44  45 MR. RUSH:  Tsee K'al K'e yex.  Tsee K'al Wet'en.  And Tsee K'al,  46  47 Mr. Mitchell, is? 1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  2749  THE TRANSLATOR:  493.  THE COURT:  What is that, a person's name?  Whose house is it?  MR. RUSH:  No, my lord, that's Mrs. Alfred's house.  THE COURT:  Oh.  Well, her house is 398.  MR. RUSH:  Yes.  THE COURT:  But I think I was just told number 493.  MR. RUSH:  Q   Yes, I just want to clear that up.  Mrs. Alfred, who -- who used that house, the  people from what house?  What Wet'suwet'en house used  that smokehouse?  A   It would have been our ancestors from -- members of  the Wah Tah K'eght house.  Q   Are they the members of Tsee K'al K'e yex?  A   Yes.  Q   And that's 398, my lord.  Q   All right.  Do you recognize the house that's on the  left-hand side, Mrs. Alfred, over here on the  left-hand side of the photograph?  A   That house I don't know.  Q   Okay.  A   I just know this Hagwilnegh's smokehouse.  That house  I don't know who belongs to.  MR. RUSH:  You're pointing to the roof of a house which is just 2750  1 to the right of the structure on the left side of the  2  3 photograph, and, my lord, you can see it -- you can  4  5 see it's about halfway down.  6  7 THE COURT:  Yes.  8  9 MR. RUSH:  10  11       Q   If I put an "H" here, Mrs. Alfred, would that be  12  13 Hagwilnegh's house?  14  15       A   Yes.  Them -- them smokehouses was still there  16  17 recently, and that's how I know.  This picture is way  18  19 before my time.  20  21       Q   Okay.  I'm going to mark a "T" on the house -- the  22  23 smokehouse of your house.  24  25       Q   All right.  26  27       A   That's Tsee K'al K'e wet'en.  28  29 THE TRANSLATOR:  Tsee K'al K'e wet'en, T-s-e-e K-'-a K-'-e  30  31 w-e-t-'-e-n.  32  33 MR. RUSH:  34  35       Q   And that means the people from the house on the flat  36  37 rock?  38  39       A   Yes.  40  41 MR. RUSH:  All right.  Can I mark that as the next exhibit,  42  43 please?  44  45 THE REGISTRAR:  134.  46  47 2751  1 (EXHIBIT 133 -  PHOTOGRAPH)  2  3  4  5 MR. RUSH:  Thank you.  6  7 MR. PLANT:  I don't have 133.  8  9 MR. RUSH:  133 is the —  10  11 THE COURT:  Well, I'm sorry, can you tell me, please, what is  12  13 the difference between what Mr. Mitchell just spelt  14  15 for us and 398?  One is the people from the house?  16  17 MR. RUSH:  That's right.  Wet'en, as in Wet'suwet'en —  18  19 THE COURT:  Yes.  20  21 MR. RUSH:  — is the people of, my lord.  So you — I think Mr.  22  23 Mitchell added wet'en to that.  24  25 THE COURT:  Yes.  Okay.  26  27 MR. RUSH:  You're right, we don't have a 133.  28  29 THE REGISTRAR:  This one is number 133.  30  31 MR. RUSH:  32  33       Q   Thank you.  All right.  I'd like to produce the next  34  35 photograph to Mrs. Alfred.  It's found at tab 14.  36  37 Mrs. Alfred, do you recognize the smokehouse that's  38  39 shown on -- in this photograph?  40  41       A   Yes, I know that one.  42  43       Q   And who does that smokehouse or who did that  44  45 smokehouse belong to?  46  47       A  Wah Tah K'eght.  That's — that would belong to Tsee 2752  1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  K'al K'e wet'en, Wat Tah K'eght's house.  Q  That's the same photograph that we marked with a "T"  in Exhibit 133?  A  Yes, that's same place.  Q  All right.  I'm going to mark it with a "T" here.  10  11  Would I be right in doing that?  12  13  A  Yes.  14  15  MR.  RUSH:  All right.  Can that be Exhibit 134, please?  16  17  THE  REGISTRAR:  134.  18  19  20  21  (EXHIBIT 134 - PHOTOGRAPH)  22  23  24  25  THE  WITNESS:  That place where you see in the back there, that's  26  27  where I was born.  28  29  MR.  RUSH:  30  31       Q   Okay.  I'm going to ask you about that.  Now, Mrs.  32  33 Alfred, this structure in the photograph, this is the  34  35 smokehouse of your house, of Wah Tah K'eght's house  36  37 you said?  38  39       A   Yes.  40  41 MR. RUSH:  And did members of your family live in this house?  42  43 THE COURT:  I'm sorry, Mr. Rush, is that correct?  44  45 MR. RUSH:  Pardon me?  46  47 THE COURT:  That this is the house of — the smokehouse of the 2753  1 house of Wah Tah K'eght.  2  3 MR. RUSH:  Yes.  Yes.  Number 398 is Wah Tah K'eght's house, and  4  5 that's what she's been making reference to.  6  7 THE COURT:  Well then, I missed that.  But you're telling me  8  9 that Wah Tah K'eght is not a house; it's a chief of  10  11 this other house.  12  13 MR. RUSH:  Well, your lordship is correct in addressing me on  14  15 that.  Wah Tah K'eght is the chief of Tsee K'al —  16  17 just let me find it.  It's 398.  He is the chief of  18  19 that house.  20  21 THE COURT:  All right.  22  23 MR. RUSH:  But your lordship may recall that on occasion we have  24  25 referred to the house by the chief's name as well.  26  27 THE COURT:  I have just sort of been assuming, and it's probably  28  29 not an accurate assumption, that Wah Tah K'eght was  30  31 itself a different house, but that couldn't be because  32  33 he'd have to belong to the same house as his mother.  34  35 MR. RUSH:  That's right.  36  37 THE COURT:  All right.  38  39 MR. RUSH:  What occurs is that the witness has referred  40  41 interchangeably to --  42  43 THE COURT:  Yes.  All right.  44  45 MR. RUSH:  — Wah Tah K'eght's house and as well to Tsee K'al  46  47 K'e yex, which is Wah Tah K'eght's house. 2754  1 THE COURT:  Yes.  All right.  2  3 MR. RUSH:  Thank you for pointing that out to me.  4  5 THE COURT:  You're very welcome.  6  7 MR. RUSH:  8  9       Q   Mrs. Alfred, the smokehouse that's shown in this  10  11 photograph, Exhibit 134, was that used by people of  12  13 your house to live in?  14  15       A   Yes, they -- they did have people living in there when  16  17 they were smoking salmon because during the night  18  19 they -- they would have to have somebody living in  20  21 there to keep the smoke going.  22  23       Q   Okay.  And do you remember any of your relatives  24  25 living in the house?  26  27       A   I remember Joe Nass, my mother, Peter Bazil.  They all  28  29 lived around there.  Sometimes they had a tent out  30  31 behind, and when they were finished with the smoking,  32  33 they would go back to their -- their houses and their  34  35 living quarters.  36  37       Q   Okay.  Your house is called in English the house on  38  39 the flat rock.  Is the flat rock shown in the -- in  40  41 the photograph?  42  43       A   That -- that -- where that building is situated is  44  45 on -- on a rock because flat rock going up from there  46  47 which doesn't show on the picture. 2755  1       Q   Okay.  The building is located on a flat rock, you  2  3 say, is that right?  4  5       A   Yes, that's -- that house is on a flat rock.  6  7       Q   Okay.  8  9       A  And —  10  11 MR. RUSH:  Did you mark your copy with a "t"?  And yours is with  12  13 a "T"?  14  15 MS. RUSSELL:  Yes, this is.  16  17 MR. RUSH:  18  19       Q   This is the court copy, is it?  Okay.  I'll put a "T"  20  21 on this too.  22  23 All right.  Mrs. Alfred, you said that the  24  25 photograph shows where you were born?  26  27       A   That house up there is where my -- my uncle had a  28  29 house.  My mother and myself and my grandmother, we  30  31 all lived up there.  That is where I was born.  32  33       Q   All right.  Now, you pointed to what appears to be a  34  35 house in the upper left-hand corner of the photograph,  36  37 and I'm just going to point this out with my pen.  Is  38  39 this the house you've been referring to?  And  40  41 that's —  42  43       A   Yes, that's the place.  There used to be a fence lying  44  45 along there.  46  47       Q   All right.  I wonder if — if I put an "M" here, would 2756  1 that be — "M" for — maybe "MA" for Madeline Alfred,  2  3 would that be right?  4  5       A   Yes.  6  7       Q   Okay.  8  9       A   That's what they call Ts'e tes t'uk.  10  11 THE COURT:  I'm sorry, Mr. Holland, what was the last word you  12  13 used?  You said it was called Ts'e --  14  15 THE INTERPRETER:  Ts'e tes t'uk.  16  17 THE COURT:  The first word sounds like the name that the witness  18  19 gave me as her chiefly name, but I'm not sure if  20  21 that's right.  22  23 THE INTERPRETER:  No, it's different.  24  25 THE COURT:  Can I be given that word again, Mr. Mitchell?  26  27 THE TRANSLATOR:  Ts'e tes t'uk, T-s' —  28  29 THE COURT:  T-s-'?  30  31 THE TRANSLATOR:  Yes.  — e t-e-s t-'-u-k  32  33 THE COURT:  All right.  And what does that mean, please?  34  35 THE WITNESS:  I — I don't know the meaning of that.  It's just  36  37 a name of that place.  It's an old word.  38  39 THE COURT:  All right.  40  41 MR. RUSH:  Okay.  42  43 THE COURT:  It's the name of the place where you were born, is  44  45 it, Mrs. Alfred?  46  47 THE WITNESS:  Yes. 2757  1 THE COURT:  Thank you.  Is Mrs. Alfred getting tired?  2  3 THE INTERPRETER:  Yes, she's getting tired.  4  5 THE COURT:  Should we adjourn?  6  7 MR. RUSH:  All right.  That will be fine.  Thank you.  8  9 THE REGISTRAR:  Order in court.  Court's adjourned until 2:00  10  11 p.m.  12  13  14  15 (PROCEEDINGS ADJOURNED AT 12:25 P.M.)  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27 I hereby certify the foregoing to be  28  29 a true and accurate transcript of the  30  31 proceedings herein to the best of my  32  33 skill and ability.  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41 Leanna Smith  42  43 Official Reporter  44  45 United Reporting Service Ltd.  46  47 2756  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47 2759  1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  xh2 M. Alfred (for plaintiff)  22  2 3        (PROCEEDINGS RESUMED PURSUANT TO A SHORT ADJOURMENT)  24  25 THE REGISTRAR:  Order in court.  Delgamuukw and Her Majesty the  26  27 Queen.  28  2 9 THE COURT:  Mr. Rush.  30  31 MR. RUSH:  My lord, Mrs. Alfred has expressed to me over the  32  33 luncheon that she's feeling quite tired.  I think your  34  35 lordship identified -- and I'm going to ask that the  36  37 Court adjourn at three o'clock if -- if -- with your  38  39 lordship's permission.  I think she's feeling at the  40  41 end of this week fairly exhausted.  42  43 THE COURT:  Well, I think that will probably be convenient to  44  45 everyone.  It is Friday.  46  47 MR. RUSH:  Thank you. 2760  1 THE COURT:  Unless I hear some very strenuous objection, to  2  3 which I'll give careful consideration, we'll adjourn  4  5 at three o'clock.  6  7 MR. PLANT:  You won't hear it from me.  Now, I'd like the witness to be shown Exhibit 134  again, please.  Mrs. Alfred, you were -- you had pointed out to us  on Exhibit 134 where it was that you were born, and  you showed us that it was in the house in the  background and you marked it "MA"?  Yes.  That's right.  And do you know who built this house?  My mother's brother Adam, who was my uncle.  And do you know -- do you know how long before you  were born the house was built?  At that time my grandmother had passed away and I was  born that same day, and then my uncle had passed away  a year previous to that, and that's when me and my  mother were living there.  Okay.  And how long did you live in that house that's  shown in Exhibit 134?  Me and my mother lived there all the time until -- up  until the time when I got married.  9 MR.  RUSH  10  11  Q  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  A  24  25  Q  26  27  A  28  29  Q  30  31  32  33  A  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  Q  42  43  44  45  A  46  47 2761  1       Q   And when you got married, where did you live?  2  3       A  When -- after I got married, Peter Bazil and my  4  5 husband Peter, they built a new house out of logs  6  7 right in the same area.  8  9       Q   Okay.  And can you show us, is it close to the place  10  11 where you lived with your mother that's shown on this  12  13 photograph where you lived with Peter, your husband?  14  15       A   Yes.  We built a house just a little ways away from  16  17 there across the road.  18  19       Q   Okay.  Now, Madeline, where do you live today?  Is --  20  21 is the place where you live today, can you see it on  22  23 the photograph, not the house, the place?  24  25       A  We're still living in the same place where our land is  26  27 and we're still living there.  28  29       Q   Okay.  And is -- is the place -- is it close to where  30  31 this -- where this house is that's marked "MA" on this  32  33 photograph?  34  35       A   That's -- it's in the same grounds as where the house  36  37 is marked.  Where that house is marked, I have a  38  39 smokehouse there, but we have a house close by.  40  41       Q   Okay.  Now, do other members of your house live close  42  43 by to you today where you live?  44  45       A  My children live there, around.  46  47       Q   Do they live around you in the same area? 2762  1       A   Yes.  They live all around where I live and it's all  2  3 in the same piece of land.  4  5       Q   Okay.  Now, in this photograph, Mrs. Alfred, you  6  7 notice that there appears to be a pole leaning against  8  9 the smokehouse that's marked "T".  Do you see what I'm  10  11 pointing to here?  Yes.  Go ahead.  12  13       A   Yes.  I see.  14  15       Q   What -- what kind of poles are those; do you know?  16  17       A   They're gaff poles.  They're used for fishing.  18  19       Q   Okay.  And the -- I'm sorry?  20  21       A   That's what you call Sah gh'us.  22  23 THE SPELLER:  Sah gh'us, S-a-h-g-h-apostrophe-u-s.  24  2 5 MR. RUSH:  26  27       Q   Now, there's a little house on logs, it appears to be  28  29 on stilts, to the left of the smokehouse, which is  30  31 marked with a "T".  Can you tell his lordship what  32  33 that little house is?  34  35       A   That is a place for storage, which you call Tsee kun.  36  37 That's for storage of smoked salmon and meat and  38  39 berries which is stored away for the winter.  40  41 MR. RUSH:  Tsee kun.  42  43 THE SPELLER:  T-s-e-e-k-u-n.  44  45 MR. RUSH:  Thank you.  46  4 7 THE COURT:  T-u-m? 2763  1 THE SPELLER:  k-u-n.  2  3 MR. RUSH:  Now —  4  5 THE COURT:  I'm sorry.  I still don't know if it's N or M.  6  7 THE SPELLER:  N.  8  9 MR. RUSH:  10  11       Q   And there appears to be a building, Mrs. Alfred, just  12  13 to the left portion of it, to the left of the  14  15 photograph.  Do you know what building that is or what  16  17 structure that is?  18  19       A   That's a smokehouse.  20  21       Q   Do you know whose smokehouse that is?  22  23       A   It's Hagwilnegh.  24  25       Q   Madam registrar, could I have Exhibit 131?  26  27 Mrs. Alfred, is that the smokehouse of Hagwilnegh  28  29 that you marked with an "H" on Exhibit 131?  30  31       A   Yes.  That is of the same building.  It's below the  32  33 road where the road goes in between.  34  35       Q   I'm going to mark an "H" on Exhibit 134, which is this  36  37 building, the structure at the corner here.  Thank  38  3 9 you.  40  41 Mrs. Alfred, you told us about your brother --  42  43 your mother's brother, Adam, who built the house that  44  45 is shown in the background of Exhibit 134.  Do you  46  47 know, when he passed on, was he an old man when he 2764  1 passed on?  2  3       A  My mother told me that he was still a young man  4  5 when -- when he got hurt.  He was -- my mother told me  6  7 that he -- he was building a stable when he got hurt  8  9 and he died as a result of that.  10  11       Q   Now, Mrs. Alfred, I want you to look at that  12  13 photograph, which is Exhibit 131, and you identified  14  15 for us the cemetery which is in the photograph and  16  17 we've marked "G" on the small houses.  You see here  18  19 where we've marked --  20  21       A   That is the old grave -- graveyard.  22  23       Q   All right.  Could you show Mrs. Alfred, please, Tab  24  25 19?  26  27       A  And that is where one of my aunt is buried.  The new  28  29 one is way in the back end, you know.  30  31       Q   Okay.  32  33       A   I'm showing you a photocopy of a photograph from a  34  35 book that is entitled "Bureau of American Ethnology",  36  37 and I wonder if you can recognize this marker?  38  39       A   Yes.  I know that.  It's still standing up yet.  40  41       Q   And what -- what is this marker of?  42  43       A   That's a grave -- gravestone marker.  44  45       Q   And whose gravestone marker is that, the name of the  46  47 Wet'suwet'en chief that held -- for whom that marker 2765  1 was built?  2  3       A   The name was Xax.  That was the grave marker of  4  5 Baptiste's first wife.  6  7 MR. RUSH   And that's Xax?  Would you give us the spelling?  8  9 Would you just say the name again, Mr. Holland?  10  11 THE INTERPRETER: Xax.  12  13 THE SPELLER:  Xax, X-a-x.  14  15 MR. RUSH:  16  17       Q   And can you tell me, Mrs. Alfred, where this marker is  18  19 located today?  20  21       A  Moricetown.  22  23       Q   And is that -- is that a figure of what appears to be  24  25 a bird on it?  26  27       A   Yes.  28  29 MR. RUSH:  Okay.  Can that be an exhibit, please?  30  31 THE REGISTRAR:  Exhibit 135.  32  33 (EXHIBIT 135:  Photocopy of photograph)  34  35 MR. RUSH:  That's 135?  Thank you.  36  37 THE COURT:  Have you finished with 134?  38  3 9 MR. RUSH:  Yes.  40  41 THE COURT:  Could I see it, please?  42  43 MR. RUSH:  Now, madam registrar, I'm going to ask if you would,  44  45 please, to place Exhibit 63 -- yes -- Exhibit 63  46  47 before Mrs. Alfred.  It's this photograph.  And it's 2766  1 taken from Tab 11 of Mr. Alfred Joseph's book of  2  3 documents.  4  5 THE REGISTRAR:  Tab 11?  6  7 MR. RUSH:  8  9       Q   Yes.  Or at least it was in my tab.  What we could do  10  11 is if you could find Exhibit 62-6, and that's in Tab 6  12  13 of --  14  15 Mrs. Alfred, I'm going to show you a photograph  16  17 that is marked Exhibit 62-6 here, and I would ask you  18  19 if you can identify what this photograph shows?  20  21       A   That is down at the foot of Hagwilget Canyon.  22  23       Q   And I want to direct your attention to what appears to  24  25 be houses or smokehouses in the upper left-hand  26  27 corner.  Do you see over here?  Did you see those in  28  29 Hagwilget Canyon?  30  31       A   Yes.  I've seen --  32  33 THE COURT:  Sorry.  Did you say upper left?  34  35 MR. RUSH:  Upper left-hand corner of Exhibit 62-6, yes.  36  37 THE COURT:  I don't think I have the same thing.  38  39 MR. RUSH:  You have Exhibit 64, I believe, or 3.  40  41 THE COURT:  I have Exhibit 3.  Yes.  Sorry.  42  43 MR. RUSH:  This is the — this is the photograph.  44  45 THE COURT:  Oh, yes.  I have my copy downstairs.  46  47 MR. RUSH:  All right. 2767  1 THE COURT:  I can follow the evidence.  2  3 MR. RUSH:  4  5       Q   Now, I want to direct your attention to the structures  6  7 that are in the upper left-hand corner, Mrs. Alfred.  8  9 Are those smokehouses of the Gitksan?  10  11       A   Yes.  That's where it is.  12  13       Q   Okay.  14  15       A  At that time I wasn't around, but my mother told me  16  17 about the cable they had going across the river, and  18  19 there was a boat attached to which they used to travel  20  21 back and forth between the two shores.  22  23       Q   Okay.  You see what appears to be a line from the  24  25 left-hand side of the photograph to the right,  26  27 apparently across the river.  Is that the cable?  28  29       A   I -- I didn't see that myself, but my mother told me  30  31 about it.  32  33       Q   Okay.  All right.  Let me ask you about the -- the  34  35 other structures in the foreground of the photograph.  36  37 Did you see those at Hagwilget?  38  39       A  When we used to travel to Hagwilget, we used to go  40  41 down to the canyon.  I've seen them there when we used  42  43 to go down there to get smoked salmon.  By the time  44  45 when we used to go down there, the elderly had  46  47 constructed a bridge. 2768  1       Q   Okay.  So you don't recall seeing this cable here?  2  3       A   I didn't see that.  My mother told me about it.  4  5       Q   All right.  Madam registrar, I'm just going to put  6  7 this back here in the document book.  I'll return  8  9 Exhibit 64 to you.  10  11 Mrs. Alfred, do you remember how old you were when  12  13 you first saw those smokehouses in the Hagwilget  14  15 Canyon?  16  17       A   I was old enough to remember everything I seen at that  18  19 time, but I could not tell you my age at that time.  20  21       Q   Okay.  All right.  Now, I want to show you the  22  23 photograph that's at -- at Tab 17.  Do you recognize  24  25 this man?  26  27       A   That's Old Bill.  28  29       Q   Old Bill.  30  31       A   Yes.  32  33       Q   And — is that Bill Nye?  34  35       A   He was Madeek.  36  37       Q   He was Madeek?  38  39       A   Yes.  40  41 MR. RUSH:  And —  42  43 THE COURT:  What was your agreement?  That his name was Bill  44  45 Nye?  46  4 7 MR. RUSH: 2769  1       Q   I didn't hear the answer.  Is this Bill Nye?  2  3       A   Yes.  Old Bill is the same who they call Bill Nye.  4  5 THE COURT:  Is it N-y —  6  7 MR. RUSH:  N-y-e.  8  9 THE COURT:  Thank you.  10  11 MR. RUSH:  12  13       Q   Now, Mrs. Alfred, what does Bill Nye have on his head?  14  15       A   That's k'es down.  16  17 MR. RUSH:  I don't think it's on the list.  18  19 THE SPELLER:  K'es, k-apostrophe-e-s.  20  21 MR. RUSH:  22  23       Q   How would -- how would Mr. Bill Nye have come to have  24  25 K'es on his head?  Would you know that?  26  27       A   I'm not sure, but he could be going -- going out to  28  29 invite or he's being invited.  30  31       Q   Is K'es used when chiefs are invited to a feast?  32  33       A   Yes.  34  35       Q   Okay.  And, Mrs. Alfred, have you used K'es yourself  36  37 when you have invited other chiefs to a feast of the  38  39 Laksilyu?  40  41       A  At this time, only way I know of using the K'es is  42  43 when you -- when you just blow the K'es towards --  44  45 towards them, and that's how I know.  That's all I  46  47 know at this time. 2770  1       Q   Is -- when you blow K'es towards someone, is that when  2  3 you invite another person to a feast?  4  5       A   Yes.  That's when you're inviting.  6  7       Q   Now, do you have K'es yourself at your house?  8  9       A   I -- I have a bag of it at home, which my mother and  10  11 my uncles had used a long time ago.  I keep it for a  12  13 souvenir.  14  15       Q   When you're invited -- Mrs. Alfred, when you're  16  17 invited to a feast when someone blows K'es on -- on  18  19 you, must you go to the feast?  20  21       A   Yes.  Then I have -- I have to go to the feast.  22  23 MR. RUSH:  Okay.  Can that be marked as an exhibit, my lord,  24  25 please?  26  27 THE COURT:  136.  28  29 (EXHIBIT 136:  Photograph)  30  31 MR. RUSH:  32  33       Q   I want to show you the photograph in Tab 18.  Do you  34  35 recognize this person, Mrs. Alfred?  36  37       A   I can't be sure, but it almost looks like Jack Joseph.  38  39       Q   Okay.  I want to ask you about the cap that the person  40  41 is wearing.  Do you see the -- the headgear that he's  42  43 wearing?  44  45       A   I think that is what they call Dist k'us.  46  47       Q   A Dist k'us? 2771  1       A   I don't know anything about the use of -- of headgear  2  3 like that.  4  5       Q   Have you seen people wearing headgear like that?  6  7       A   I've seen them, but I've never known what it was all  8  9 about.  10  11       Q   All right.  Do you -- do you recognize the staff in  12  13 the photograph?  14  15       A   No.  16  17 MR. RUSH:  All right.  18  19 THE COURT:  How is Dist k'us spelled, please?  20  21 THE SPELLER:  Dist k'us, D-i-s-t-k-apostrophe-u-s.  22  2 3 THE COURT:  Thank you.  24  25 MR. RUSH:  Okay.  I'm going to have this -- ask that this be  26  27 marked, my lord.  28  29 THE COURT:  Yes.  137.  30  31 (EXHIBIT 137:  Photograph)  32  33 MR. RUSH:  34  35       Q   Thank you.  All right.  I'm going to refer Mrs. Alfred  36  37 to Exhibit 62-9, which is of Mr. Joseph's document  38  39 book.  40  41 Now, Mrs. Alfred, I just want to show you this  42  43 photograph of a pole.  Just look at that.  44  45       A   That would be Samooh's pole.  46  47       Q   I believe that's on the plaintiff's list, 57. 2772  1 Mrs. Alfred, can you tell me where this -- where  2  3 is this pole located?  4  5       A   That's located at -- in front of David Dennis' house.  6  7       Q   And where is David Dennis' house?  Is that in  8  9 Moricetown?  10  11       A   Yes.  That's where he has a house.  Yes.  I -- I -- I  12  13 know of a time when that pole was made and some of the  14  15 men that worked on it was Thomas George and Peter  16  17 Alfred.  18  19       Q   Were you present when the pole was raised in  20  21 Moricetown?  22  23       A   Yes.  24  25       Q   Okay.  26  27       A   I was there.  28  29       Q   And is this pole still standing in Moricetown?  30  31       A   Yes.  32  33 MR. RUSH:  Thank you.  34  35 THE COURT:  Whose pole did the witness say it was, please?  36  37 MR. RUSH:  38  39       Q   Whose pole was that again?  40  41       A   Samooh.  42  43       Q   57 on the plaintiff's list; is that right?  All right.  44  45 Thank you.  46  47 Now, Mrs. -- Mrs. Alfred, I want to ask you to 2773  1 look, if you will, at the photograph that's in Tab 22,  2  3 which is a colour photograph.  Now, first I want to  4  5 ask you if you can identify the man that's standing in  6  7 front of a house in this photograph?  8  9       A   That's Johnny David.  10  11       Q   Is that Johnny David's house behind him?  12  13       A   Yes.  14  15       Q   Okay.  Now, there are two poles in this photograph.  16  17 Are these poles in front of Johnny David's house?  18  19       A   Yes.  20  21       Q   Okay.  And do those -- in the summer time at  22  23 Moricetown, does Johnny David's house and those poles  24  25 look like that as shown in this photograph?  26  27       A   Yes.  28  29       Q   All right.  And I want you first to look at the pole  30  31 that's on the left-hand side of the photograph, the  32  33 shorter of the two.  Can you tell me who -- who --  34  35 whose pole that is, the one on --  36  37       A   That is Johnny David's wife's pole.  38  39       Q   And do you know her name or her house?  40  41       A   I think she was Samooh.  42  43       Q   That's 57 again then.  Okay.  Now, the photograph on  44  45 the right side of the -- excuse me.  The pole on the  46  47 right side of the photograph, whose pole is that? 2774  1       A   That is Mathew Sam's wife's pole.  The person standing  2  3 beside that pole, that belongs to them.  4  5       Q   The person standing beside the pole is Johnny David?  6  7 I don't quite -- Mrs. Alfred, try to help me.  Does  8  9 the pole, does it belong to Johnny David or Mathew  10  11 Sam?  12  13       A   It belongs to Khay Lah.  14  15 MR. PLANT:  Mathew Sam's wife.  16  17 MR. RUSH:  Mathew Sam's wife, yes.  Thank you.  18  19 THE SPELLER:  187.  20  21 MR. RUSH:  Thank you.  Can that be marked as an exhibit, please?  22  23 THE REGISTRAR:  Exhibit 138.  24  25 (EXHIBIT 138:  Photograph)  26  27 THE COURT:  The number was what?  28  29 THE SPELLER:  187.  30  31 MR. RUSH:  32  33       Q   All right.  My lord, I'm going to refer Mrs. Alfred to  34  35 the photograph which is at Tab 23 of the document  36  37 book.  38  39 I'm showing you another photograph, Mrs. Alfred,  40  41 which is numbered from the British Columbia Provincial  42  43 Museum PN12003.  Do you recognize that photograph?  44  45       A   It's down at the foot of Hagwilget Canyon.  46  47       Q   And do you know whose pole that is? 2775  1       A   No.  I don't know.  2  3       Q   Do you know whose smokehouse this is?  4  5       A   I don't know that either.  I don't know the -- the  6  7 poles from that area at all.  8  9 MR. RUSH:  All right.  That's fine.  Thank you.  10  11 THE COURT:  Do you want to mark that?  12  13 MR. RUSH:  I'll mark it.  Yes.  I'll mark it and it can be for  14  15 identification.  16  17 THE COURT:  She identifies it as at the foot of Hagwilget  18  19 Canyon.  20  21 MR. RUSH:  Yes, she does.  22  23 THE REGISTRAR:  Exhibit 139.  24  25 (EXHIBIT 139:  Photograph)  26  2 7 MR. RUSH:  28  29       Q   Now, I'd like to show Mrs. Alfred the photograph which  30  31 is at Tab 24, please.  Have a look at this coloured  32  33 photograph, Mrs. Alfred.  I just ask you if you  34  35 recognize the pole that's shown in the photograph?  36  37       A   Yes.  That's — I know that pole.  That's Little — in  38  39 front of Little Tommy's place.  That belongs to C'en  40  41 egh la yex.  42  43 MR. RUSH:  C'en egh la yex is a house.  44  45 THE SPELLER:  399.  46  47 MR. RUSH:  Thank you. 2776  1  THE  COURT  :  Sorry?  2  3  4  5  MR.  RUSH:  Q  399.  6  7  8  9  A  The pole shows eyes and frogs on it.  Q  All right.  And is this pole located at Moricetown,  10  11  Mrs. Alfred?  12  13  A  Yes.  It's still standing there.  14  15  MR.  RUSH:  All right.  Thank you.  Can that be marked the next  16  17  exhibit?  18  19  THE  COURT  :  Exhibit 140.  20  21  THE  REGISTRAR:  Exhibit 140.  22  23  (EXHIBIT 140:  Photograph)  24  2 5 MR. RUSH:  26  27       Q   Now, Mrs. Alfred, I have another photograph I'd like  28  29 to show you, and this is the one at Tab 25 of the  30  31 document book.  I just ask if you would look at this  32  33 photograph for me.  It's a coloured photograph of a  34  35 pole.  Do you recognize the pole that is in that  36  37 photograph, Mrs. Alfred?  38  39       A   Yes.  I've seen that.  It's still standing up.  40  41       Q   Okay.  Do you know who owns that pole?  42  43       A   That belongs to Thomas George.  44  45 MR. RUSH:  Okay.  Is that a —  46  47 THE COURT:  Sorry.  I didn't get that. 2777  1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  MR. RUSH:  Q   Thomas George.  Okay.  And is that a -- a pole of the  Gitdumden?  A   Yes.  Q   Okay.  Is this -- where is the pole located; do you  know?  A   It's located in -- by Thomas George's house.  Q   Okay.  Now, Thomas George has passed on and where --  where would this -- where is the house standing?  A   His house is still standing, but that pole, I believe,  fell over.  Q   Okay.  A   It's -- it's on the ground now.  MR. RUSH:  All right.  THE COURT:  The pole is on the ground?  THE WITNESS:  Yes.  MR. RUSH:  All right.  Can that be marked as the next exhibit?  THE COURT:  Is this in Moricetown?  THE REGISTRAR:  Exhibit 141.  (EXHIBIT 141:  Photograph)  THE WITNESS:  I forget the name of that place where they live  towards the east where my -- my daughter and them  live.  MR. RUSH: 2778  1       Q   It's not located at Moricetown though, is it?  2  3       A   No.  4  5 MR. RUSH:  All right.  Okay.  6  7 THE COURT:  What was it Mr. Holland said?  East of Moricetown?  8  9 THE WITNESS:  Yes.  10  11 MR. RUSH:  Okay.  My lord, I've completed this section of my  12  13 evidence and I was going to move on to something else  14  15 and I think this might be an appropriate moment.  16  17 THE COURT:  Yes.  All right.  We will adjourn now then.  Thank  18  19 you.  20  21  (PROCEEDINGS ADJOURNED UNTIL JANUARY 18, 1988 AT 10:00 A.M.)  22  23  24  25 I hereby certify the foregoing to be  26 a true and accurate transcript of the  27 proceedings transcribed to the best  28 of my skill and ability.  29  30  31  32 Kathie Tanaka, Official Reporter  33 UNITED REPORTING SERVICE LTD.  34  35  36  37  38  39

Cite

Citation Scheme:

        

Citations by CSL (citeproc-js)

Usage Statistics

Share

Embed

Customize your widget with the following options, then copy and paste the code below into the HTML of your page to embed this item in your website.
                        
                            <div id="ubcOpenCollectionsWidgetDisplay">
                            <script id="ubcOpenCollectionsWidget"
                            src="{[{embed.src}]}"
                            data-item="{[{embed.item}]}"
                            data-collection="{[{embed.collection}]}"
                            data-metadata="{[{embed.showMetadata}]}"
                            data-width="{[{embed.width}]}"
                            async >
                            </script>
                            </div>
                        
                    
IIIF logo Our image viewer uses the IIIF 2.0 standard. To load this item in other compatible viewers, use this url:
http://iiif.library.ubc.ca/presentation/cdm.delgamuukw.1-0019296/manifest

Comment

Related Items