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Delgamuukw Trial Transcripts

[Proceedings of the Supreme Court of British Columbia 1988-02-03] British Columbia. Supreme Court Feb 3, 1988

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 3070  1 FEBRUARY 3, 198 8  2 VANCOUVER, B.C.  3  4 THE REGISTRAR:   In the Supreme Court of British Columbia, this  5 Wednesday, February 3, 1988.  Calling Delgamuukw  6 versus her Majesty The Queen at bar, My Lord.  7 MR. PLANT: I have two preliminary matters, My Lord.  The first  8 is there is an articling student from my office, John  9 Esson, here with me today, and I would ask leave to  10 have him sit at the counsel table.  11 THE COURT:  Yes, certainly.  Thank you.  12 MR. PLANT:  The second matter is I, in the early part of last  13 week, had occasion to request officials in the Surveys  14 and Mapping Branch of the Department of Lands to  15 prepare an overlay map, series of overlays depicting  16 the boundaries of the territory of the House of Wah  17 Tah K'eght as those boundaries are depicted on two  18 other maps and described by Madeline Alfred in her  19 evidence.  And I am not proposing to examine this  20 witness on this map, because it's not prepared by him,  21 but much as my friends did, as long ago as the  22 witness, Olive Ryan, I am proposing to offer this map  23 to Your Lordship as a convenience, to see the  24 relationship between the three boundaries as they  25 appear in three different places.  If necessary, I am  26 quite prepared to tender an affidavit disclosing the  27 names by which the map was produced, but I am not  28 proposing that the map be tendered as an exhibit.  29 Merely for convenience in assisting Your Lordship in a  30 general way, and seeing the relationship between the  31 boundaries, rather than trying to follow them as we  32 have and did yesterday on three separate maps.  33 THE COURT: What are the three maps from which this overlay was  34 prepared?  35 MR. PLANT  3 6 THE COURT  37 MR. PLANT  Exhibit 84.  Yes.  Trial Exhibit 5, which is the internal boundaries  38 map, and the third source of information is the  39 interpretation of the affidavit of Madeline Alfred,  40 which the -- an official in the Surveys and Mapping  41 Branch has -- he has read the affidavit --  42 THE COURT:  Yes.  43 MR. PLANT:  -- metes and bounds description and given his best  44 shot at drawing the line.  4 5 THE COURT  4 6 MR. PLANT  4 7 THE COURT  And all three are different, I suppose, from 164?  No.  Yes, 164 conforms with the metes and bounds 3071  1 description, I think.  2 MR. PLANT:  In the affidavit, yes, My Lord.  There may be minor  3 discrepancies, but within the limits of cartographic  4 reproduction, I think they are the same.  5 THE COURT: All right.  Have you shown this to your learned  6 friends?  7 MR. PLANT:  Yes, I provided them with a copy last week.  8 MS. MANDELL:  For the purpose my friend proposes, I have --  9 there is no objection to him doing so.  I might say we  10 have had an opportunity ourselves of going through the  11 map, and it is a rough sketch.  It is our view that  12 there are points within the drawings of the lines that  13 don't precisely conform to the exhibits.  They are  14 close, but they are not totally accurate, and I think  15 it's -- if it's accepted by you as that, then I think  16 there is no problem.  17 THE COURT:  All right.  Thank you.  Mr. Macaulay?  18 MR. MACAULAY: My Lord, I have no objection, but I take the  19 opportunity of asking again if the miniature series  20 might be addressed.  21 THE COURT:  Well, I am reluctant to do that, Mr. Macaulay, when  22 we are under a time constraint with this particular  23 witness, but I would be glad to hear from you about  24 that at the next convenient moment.  2 5 MR. MACAULAY:  Yes.  2 6 THE COURT  2 7 MR. PLANT  2 8 THE COURT  2 9 MR. PLANT  Thank you.  I have a copy of the map.  Thank you.  Actually I have an extra copy for my friends,  30 although I am not going to ask him questions on it  31 today.  Another reason why I was concerned to provide  32 Your Lordship with this map was that some time ago, I  33 think it was during the examination of Mrs. Alfred,  34 Your Lordship asked counsel certain questions about  35 whether the boundary -- the eastern boundary as  36 depicted on the Exhibit 84 map was the eastern  37 boundary as it is today, and I answered that question  38 incorrectly.  But if I might briefly give Your  39 Lordship -- I think the maps are self-explanatory.  40 It's the same scale as the Exhibit 5 map.  The first  41 overlay is an attempt to reproduce the line as shown  42 on Exhibit 84.  43 THE COURT:  I'm sorry, the first overlay?  44 MR. PLANT:  That's the overlay at the bottom with the green  45 line.  46 THE COURT:  The green line.  That's not an overlay at all, is  47 it?  I suppose it is, yes.  All right, what -- the map 9 MR.  10 THE  11 MR.  12 THE  13 MR.  14  15  16  17 THE  18 MR.  19  2 0 THE  MR.  3072  1 at the bottom, that is what?  2 MR. PLANT:  A composite of one or more, I think, at least two  3 national topographic system maps that have been  4 pasted together to try and minimize the size of the  5 map necessary to contain the territory of this  6 witness.  7 THE COURT:  What is the green line parallel to and just east of  8 the west bank of Babine Lake?  A road.  That's a road?  Yes, I think so, My Lord.  All right.  I don't recall that road in my travels.  No, I don't either.  I was about to say the Smithers  and Smithers Landing Road, but the Smithers Landing  Road appears on this map, so it must be the road to  Old Fort, the north end of Babine Lake.  All right.  I doubt very much whether it starts in the middle of  the wilderness, as it appears, but --  Well, obviously it's a composite, so —  The dotted line across there at the middle of the  map is the point at which the two maps meet.  All right.  Well, I'm sorry, I suppose if one is  driving from Smithers to Smithers Landing, one  wouldn't intersect that green line road, and so it may  well be there.  There may be a turn off in the area of Chapman Lake.  I'm not sure.  COURT:  All right.  Yes.  Thank you.  And then the —  PLANT:   The second overlay, the overlay with the blue line,  purports to represent the boundary of the Wah Tah  K'eght territory as it appears on Trial Exhibit 5.  The description is incorrect.  It says:  "As attached  to the Amended Statement of Claim filed May 11, 1985".  In fact the map attached to the Amended Statement of  Claim filed May 11, 1987 did not have internal  boundaries, but on the same day my friends delivered  to us a map showing the internal boundaries which is  the same as Trial Exhibit 5.  The top overlay, the red  line, is the attempt to reproduce the description  contained in Mrs. Alfred's affidavit.  COURT:  Yes.  PLANT:  And Your Lordship will see, among other things, that  it follows K'aaz Kwe Creek.  COURT:  Yes.  All right.  Thank you.  Mr. Alfred and Mr. Holland, you are still under  PLANT  COURT  PLANT  COURT  PLANT  COURT  PLANT  COURT  PLANT  COURT  21  22  23 THE  24  25  26  2 7 MR. PLANT  28  2 9 THE  3 0 MR.  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42 THE  4 3 MR.  44  45 THE  4 6 THE  47  REGISTRAR:  oath 1  MR.  PLANT  2  Q  3  4  5  6  7  8  A  9  Q  10  11  12  A  13  Q  14  15  16  A  17  Q  18  A  19  Q  20  A  21  THE  COURT  22  23  24  THE  WITNE  25  THE  COURT  26  MR.  PLANT  27  Q  28  A  29  Q  30  31  32  33  34  35  A  36  37  Q  38  39  A  40  Q  41  42  43  A  44  Q  45  46  A  47  3073  Mr. Alfred, yesterday I was asking you some questions  about goat hunting, and I had not asked you about the  area in the south eastern part of your territory, as  shown on Exhibit 164, which is the area around the  Hudson Bay Mountain range.  Do you see the area in the  lower left-hand part of that map?  Yes.  And my understanding -- my recollection from your  evidence is that you have said that you went hunting  for goats there with Alfred Mitchell; is that correct?  Yes.  And I take it that this was the only trip that you  have made to this part of the territory for goat  hunting?  Yes.  Do you remember when that trip was?  Be early fifties.  I can't remember exactly.  The early 1950's?  Right.  :  I'm sorry, Mr. Alfred, does your answer imply that  you have made just one trip there or just one trip  there for goat hunting purposes?  3S:  Just one trip.  :  Thank you.  And what season of year was this trip?  I believe it was late September.  Do you recall what season of the year you made your  trip to the -- well, the Porphry Creek area, the area  in the upper left-hand corner of Exhibit 164 with Dan  Michell.  Do you remember what time of year it was  that you went with Dan Michell to hunt for goats up  here?  Before my dad died.  That would be about '85 I would  say.  Do you remember whether you made the trip in the  winter, spring, summer, fall?  That's late in fall too.  So about the same time of year that you made the trip  to Hudson Bay Mountain area with Alfred Mitchell, same  season?  About the same season, yes.  When you made the trip to the area near Two Bridge  Lake with Victor Jim, what season was that?  That was late in fall too, but I can't remember  what -- late September, I believe it was. 3074  Now, coming back again to the trip that you made to  the Hudson Bay Mountain area with Alfred Mitchell in  the early 1950's.  Did you kill anything, any goats on  that trip?  I didn't.  Do you recall whether on that trip you checked to see  if it was open season for goat hunting on Hudson Bay  Mountain?  No, I never myself never checked at all, but I went  along at that time to familiarize myself with the area  and learn of goat hunting methods, because at that  time it was -- Peter Bazil was Wah Tah K'eght.  You told us that you invited Dan Michell to come with  you when you went hunting goats up in the northern  part of the territory.  Do you remember telling us  that?  Uh-huh.  Did you ask Bazil Michell's permission before you left  on that trip?  Any time when there is a hunting party going out,  there is always some sort of meeting, and then he, of  course, would be advised of it.  And just a note of  correction there.  Yesterday I said it was -- a  correction there.  I said -- when we went up in that  area, I had said that it was for my father's funeral  feast, but I had made a mistake there.  It was for my  brother's funeral feast.  Is that your brother Andrew?  That's right.  :  Was that the goat hunting trip to the area of Two  Bridge Lake?  32 THE WITNESS:  No.  33 THE COURT:  It's the one to Porphry Creek?  34 THE WITNESS:  The area is where Dan and myself had been, and it  would be up in the headwaters of Sde Kep.  Did you on this occasion, the occasion of the trip to  the headwaters of Sde Kep with Dan Michell, did you in  fact ask Bazil Michell for permission to travel there?  Like I said before, we have a meeting and then I  myself selected the party that was to accompany me,  and I selected Dan and Cecil, and of course Bazil is  also advised of our activities.  Was Bazil at that meeting?  My sister is married to one of his sons, and who is  aware of these meetings, and then he in turn advises  his father of what is being said, because Bazil is  1  Q  2  3  4  5  A  6  Q  7  8  9  A  10  11  12  13  Q  14  15  16  17  A  18  Q  19  20  A  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  Q  29  A  30 THE  COURT  31  35  3 6 MR.  PLANT  37  Q  38  39  40  A  41  42  43  44  Q  45  A  46  47 1  2  3  Q  4  5  A  6 THE  COURT  7 MR.  PLANT  8 THE  COURT  9 MR.  PLANT  10  Q  11  12  13  A  14  15  16  17  Q  18  A  19  Q  20  21  22  A  23  24  25  26  27  Q  28  29  30  A  31  32  33  34  Q  35  36  A  37  38  39  Q  40  41  42  43  A  44  Q  45  46  47  3075  sometimes weak and old.  He doesn't get around all  that much now.  Which of your sisters is married to one of Bazil's  sons?  Helen.  I'm sorry?  Helen.  Thank you.  And so Helen's husband went to advise Bazil that this  hunting trip was going to take place; is that a fair  statement?  Sometimes my mother would send word over there to him  to advise him of our activities, and then Roy is  always taking care of his father, and he in turn would  also advise him of our -- what our plans would be.  Is Roy the husband of Helen?  Yes.  Do you know if Roy told Bazil Michell about this  hunting trip, the hunting trip with Dan Michell to the  headwaters of Sde Kep?  I'm not sure if he had told him of this or not.  But  one thing is for sure, that he would know, when he  goes to the feast, where the meat for this animal are  mentioned at the feast, and he would be -- he would be  certain to know of it then.  Under Wet'suwet'en law, Mr. Alfred, is Bazil Michell  the owner of the territory on the west side of the  Bulkley?  Like I told you before, Bazil -- Peter Bazil had given  this territory to Bazil Michell for his lifetime, in  appreciation for the help he had received from Bazil  Michell.  Does that make him the owner of the territory for his  lifetime?  All of the territory belongs to Wah Tah K'eght, but  Bazil Michell was caretaking that particular area  with -- for his lifetime.  Mr. Alfred, I would like to put another affidavit in  front of you.  It's the second interrogatories  affidavit.  Could you turn to the second page and tell  me if that's your signature there.  Yes.  Above the words "Wah Tah K'eght" and then in brackets  "(Henry Alfred)", do you recall being required to  answer or give another set of answers to the  interrogatories that had been sent to you? 1  A  2  3  4  Q  5  6  7  8  9  A  10  11  12  Q  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  A  22  23  Q  24  A  25  Q  26  27  A  28  Q  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  A  39  Q  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  3076  I am not sure if you're saying that you sent us two  sets, one after another, but I do know that I only  signed one affidavit.  Well, Mr. Alfred, yesterday I showed you an affidavit  dated July 31, 1986, and I think you told me that you  had signed that on page 2.  I put that in front of you  now, and do you see your signature on the affidavit  that has the July, 1986 date?  I always thought that I made only -- I signed only one  set of affidavits, and I -- at this time I couldn't  recall.  All right.  Well, let's just look at this second one  which has the date -- actually it says "January 11,  1986", but I think Miss Mandell and I agree that that  date should be January 11, 1987.  And -- well, you  have stated that that's your signature on page 2 of  this affidavit, I think, but if you haven't, can you  identify that as your signature above the name Wah Tah  K'eght on the right-hand side about two-thirds of the  way down the page?  Is that your signature?  It's just coming back to me now.  I believe Louise  came and I signed that in January.  By Louise you are referring to Louise Mandell?  Yes.  So that's your signature there on page 2 of the  affidavit of January -- it should be January, 1987?  Yes.  Paragraph three of that affidavit you say:  "The answers that are attached to this Exhibit  A to this my affidavit are true to the best of  my knowledge except where stated to be upon  information and belief, and where so stated I  verily believe them to be true."  And that statement was true at the time you made it,  Mr. Alfred?  Yes.  Mr. Alfred, could you turn to page 2 of Exhibit A to  this affidavit, and at the bottom of the page there is  a question and then an answer on the next page, which  I want to ask you about.  At the bottom of the page  question 59E reads:  "Have there been any changes in the boundaries  of your House's territory since the date of  the first contact between the Gitksan and ..." 1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  A  THE COURT  MR.  THE  MR.  MR.  3077  I think that should be the "Wet'suwet'en".  "... and representatives of any European  nations?"  Do you see that question?  A   Yes.  Q   And then the answer on the next page is as follows:  "At one time the territory incorporated the  area north and south of the Bulkley River.  Now it is just north.  Jake Uetz apparently  now claims ownership around Evelyn and up  towards the Kitsegukla territory.  I do not  know how he got this.  Bazil Michell owns  this side.  Peter Bazil at one time let Bazil  look after it."  That's the end of the quotation.  Now, that answer  was true when you gave it?  Yes.  And when you say in the first sentence, "north and  south of the Bulkley River", are you referring to  the -- what we would also say west and east of the  Bulkley, that is to say the territory on both sides of  the Bulkley River?  At the time when -- I myself called it north and south  at the time, but since, as of late, I have been  corrected on it, and I am aware it is now east and  west.  When you say in the second sentence of your answer,  "now it is just north", you mean the east side of the  Bulkley; is that correct?  That's the side across from  the village?  Yes, at the moment it is across the river.  And that's  the area that I am looking after.  And the west side  is the side that Bazil is caretaking, although the  whole area is Wah Tah K'eght territory.  :  Could I have the name again said to be the claimant  in the Evelyn area.  :  Excuse me?  :  Could I have the name of the gentleman mentioned as  the claimant of the Evelyn area.  :  Yes, I was about to ask a question about it.  Jake  Uetz, U-e-t-z, as it is spelled here.  A  Q  A  PLANT  COURT  PLANT  PLANT 1  Q  2  A  3  Q  4  A  5  Q  6  7  A  8  Q  9  10  11  A  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  Q  21  22  23  24  25  A  26  Q  27  28  A  29  30  Q  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  A  38  Q  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  3078  Mr. Alfred, is Jake Uetz a Wet'suwet'en person?  No.  He's a white man?  Yes.  Does he have a farm?  Did he used to have a farm near  Evelyn?  I didn't know anything about him at all before.  What you know is that he apparently now claims  ownership around Evelyn and up towards Kitsegukla  territory; is that correct?  At the time when Peter Bazil turned over the territory  to me, he also advised me of the -- of this person  having -- he advised me that this person, white person  here, had papers for trapping and further in the lower  part of that area, and that is when I was made aware  of it.  And then later on just recently I found out  that he was -- his trapping -- trapline -- I heard  that he has been hunting up in that area.  I am not  aware of his traplines yet.  Thank you, Mr. Alfred.  I don't have anymore questions  on the interrogatory at this time.  Mr. Alfred, is Kitsegukla Lake -- is any part of  Kitsegukla Lake in Wah Tah K'eght's territory?  Let me  stop first.  Do you know where Kitsegukla Lake is?  Yes.  Is any part of that lake within the territory of Wah  Tah K'eght?  Kitsegukla Lake is outside Wah Tah K'eght boundary  line.  I am going to show you a document which is an  affidavit of Bazil Michell.  I have a copy for Your  Lordship.  The affidavit is dated December 11, 1987,  and on the second page of this, in paragraph three,  Bazil says:  "I have obtained permission from Wah Tah  K'eght".  Do you see that at the very top line of the  affidavit of the second page, Mr. Alfred?  Yes.  "I have obtained permission from Wah Tah  K'eght, Henry Alfred, a plaintiff in this  action, to describe and speak about the Tabegh  Tai",  T-a-b-e-g-h, new word, T-a-i,  "territory owned by the House of Wah Tah  K'eght.  This territory is located in the  valley of the Wed'zen Kwe," 3079  1  2 W-e-d'z-e-n, K-w-e.  3  4 "(Bulkley River) around the village of K'ayah  5 Wig'et"  6  7 K'a-y-a-h, W-i-g'e-t,  8  9 "Moricetown."  10  11 Mr. Alfred, have you ever heard of any part of the  12 territory of the House of Wah Tah K'eght described as  13 the Tabegh Tai territory?  14 A   Tabegh Tai is a road going by a lake.  It's different  15 from the area you are talking about in Kitsegukla.  16 Q   Sorry, it's different from Kitsegukla?  17 A   Different from the area you are talking about -- when  18 you are talking about Kitsegukla.  19 Q   But the road going by the lake is within the territory  20 of Wah Tah K'eght; is that correct?  21 A   Peter Bazil and Bazil Michell, they all travel the  22 trail by the lake when they went up trapping in that  23 area, and that is all within Wah Tah K'eght's  24 territory.  25 Q   Thank you.  When did you give permission to Bazil  26 Michell to describe and speak about the territory  27 owned by the House of Wah Tah K'eght?  28 A  At the time Bazil was still able to walk, when we --  29 he approached me at a feast and he asked me about  30 having to do his -- this affidavit.  We discussed it  31 at that time, and I had told him that it seemed like  32 we were both going to be doing affidavits on this, so  33 they both agreed on it.  And he was given permission  34 to go ahead with this at that time.  35 Q   So you discussed it with Bazil.  Is this quite  36 recently with Bazil Michell?  37 A   That would be early '80's.  Not exactly the -- that's  38 probably around early '80's.  I'm not sure exactly  39 what year or month it was.  40 Q   In paragraph four of the affidavit Bazil Michell says:  41  42 "On August 8th, 1983 I drove to the Kitsegukla  43 Lake area with Gisdaywa (Alfred Joseph).  44 During this trip I identified the western  45 boundaries of the Wah Tah K'eght territory."  46  47 Then in paragraph 5 he says: 3080  "Kitsegukla Lake is a boundary.  On its east  side is the territory of Wah Tah K'eght and on  its west side the territory belongs to  Guxsan,"  G-u-x-s-a-n.  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18 THE  19 MR.  2 0 THE  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  2 8 MR.  2 9 THE  30  31  32 MR.  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  4 3 MR.  44  45  46  47  COURT  PLANT  COURT  PLANT  COURT  PLANT  Q  A  PLANT  "A Gitksan chief.  I pointed out to Alfred  Joseph the cabin site of the Wet'suwet'en  chief at the east end of the lake and Guxsan's  cabin site at the west end of the lake."  Now, Mr. Alfred, I take it that your understanding  of the information -- of the location of the boundary  on the western end of the Wah Tah K'eght territory is  different from Bazil Michell?  Mr. Plant, is there any advantage in having the --  Excuse me?  -- having this witness discuss discrepancies between  his evidence and someone elses?  Surely this affidavit  has been sworn by someone else who may or may not be a  witness.  If admissible as an admission or as a  statement put forward by the plaintiff, stands for  itself, and the witness's evidence stands for itself.  Is there any point in having the witness discuss the  evidence of someone else?  Well, My Lord, I won't pursue it.  The distinction, it seems to me, to be a narrow one.  They are a few miles apart, but there is a  distinction.  It speaks for itself, I think.  I won't pursue the matter, My Lord.  Mr. Alfred, would you agree with me that your  understanding, so far as you know, Bazil Michell has  been trapping in the area west of the Bulkley River  since before you were born?  Yes, my -- Bazil has trapped up in that area before I  was born, along with my mother, who was also up there  in the early -- before my -- I was born.  And they  all -- mother was using different lines and Bazil was  also using a different line, and they were the ones  that had told me about that.  Thank you. I would tender the next affidavit as the  next exhibit.  I might say in that connection, My  Lord, that this affidavit was delivered to us on the  6th of January, 1987.  As I understood it, it arose by  virtue of a ruling made by Your Lordship during the 1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  11 MS.  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27 THE  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35 MR.  36 THE  37  38  39  4 0 MR.  41  42  43  44  4 5 MR  46  47  THE  3081  course of the evidence of Alfred Joseph that -- where  Mr. Joseph had given certain evidence of statements  made to him by others.  That evidence -- the  admissibility of that evidence depended on the  production of affidavits by his informants, and it was  in that context that this affidavit was delivered to  us as the statement -- as the evidence of Bazil  Michell, who I will also say has given evidence on  commission during this action, and his transcript of  his commission evidence have been filed as Exhibit 71.  MANDELL:  My Lord, the affidavit hasn't been identified by  this witness, and the condition upon which Mr.  Joseph's evidence would be accepted on this point  would be that there would be an affidavit filed of the  informant.  Now, it's still the option of the  plaintiffs whether or not we seek to rely upon that  evidence, and it's our position that if we chose to  rely upon that evidence of Mr. Joseph, then the  affidavit must go in with it, and its been delivered  to my friend.  But the plaintiffs haven't yet chosen  to bring it in as part of their case.  It's our  position that it certainly can't go in now, based on  what's been tendered here in court.  And if we chose  to rely upon that evidence of Mr. Joseph on this  point, then would go in as part of the plaintiff's  case in due course.  COURT:  I don't recall that you were given the option, Miss  Mandell.  It may be right that you could call evidence  and then decide later whether you were going to rely  on it.  I thought you tendered the evidence, or Mr.  Rush did, of Alfred -- of Mr. Joseph, and said that  you would support its admissibility by an affidavit.  I didn't understand you were conditionally tendering  the evidence of Mr. Joseph.  RUSH:  Perhaps I should speak to it.  COURT:  This is an unusual enough order I made in the first  place, but it would be even more unusual that you can  tender evidence subject to supporting it with an  affidavit, and then decide not to bother.  RUSH:  Well, I think Your Lordship in fact commented on the  fact that you wished you hadn't made the order.  COURT: I very much wish I hadn't made the order. I would  have to look at the transcript to see if I went this  far as has now been suggested.  RUSH:  My recollection was that if we had sought to rely  upon Mr. Joseph's evidence, where he had been informed  by witnesses who were still living, then we had to THE  MR.  3082  support that by bringing forward an affidavit of those  living witnesses.  COURT:  All right.  Well —  RUSH:  And so it was up to the plaintiffs as to determine  whether or not they sought to rely on Mr. Joseph's  evidence, as given in his testimony, and to support  that evidence by an affidavit of one of the persons  who was his informant, and we have not made that  election in respect of this evidence.  COURT:  Can your friend not tender this affidavit as an  admission that you have made, whether you chose to  advance it or not?  RUSH: Well, I don't see how.  Your Lordship created certain  specific terms upon which the evidence would be led,  and my understanding of your order was that if we were  going to rely on Mr. Joseph, it was really going back  to Mr. Joseph's evidence in -- ultimately.  But are you not taken to be relying on Mr. Joseph's  evidence by tendering the affidavit to your friend?  RUSH: I don't think so.  COURT:  I presume -- has this been filed in court?  RUSH:  No.  COURT:  Well, I would like to review the dialogue or the  discussion which I wish hadn't happened before I deal  with this matter.  Do you have any further  cross-examination on this material, Mr. Plant?  PLANT:  No, I am happy to proceed with that.  COURT:  I think it should be marked for identification only.  We will review this interesting discussion some other  time.  The position taken by my friend is an odd one, is to  offer evidence -- tender evidence without any  expression as to whether the evidence is conditional  or not, then to be told that the evidence will only be  admissible if an affidavit is tendered, and then to  offer that affidavit and take a position that somehow  that is not a statement by a witness which might be  offered as evidence at this time is a strange  position.  COURT:  I have already commented on that.  41 MR. MACAULAY:  When do we find out whether the evidence is  42 evidence or is not evidence?  43 THE COURT:  Well, I'll be glad to hear counsel on it as soon as  44 we finish this witness, if you wish.  The next exhibit  45 number please.  46 THE REGISTRAR:  Marked 178 for ID only.  47 THE COURT:  Yes, this would be 178 for Identification.  9  10 THE  11  12  13 MR.  14  15  16  17  18 THE COURT  19  2 0 MR.  21 THE  22 MR.  23 THE  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  4 0 THE  MR.  THE  MR. PLANT MR.  THE COURT  MS.  MR.  9  10 THE  11 MR.  12  13 MS.  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25 THE  26  27  28  2 9 MR.  30  31 THE  32  33  34  35  3 6 MR.  37  38 THE  39  4 0 THE  41 MR.  42 THE  4 3 MR.  44  45  46  47  3083  (EXHIBIT NO. 178 FOR IDENTIFICATION  AFFIDAVIT OF BAZIL MICHELL)  PLANT:  Q  Mr. Alfred, I want to move onto another subject now.  Is there a word in Wet'suwet'en for family?  A   It's right at the tip of my tongue, and I couldn't say  it just yet.  COURT:  Well, lead him, perhaps, if you can.  PLANT:  Excuse me, I don't know what the word is, so this is  one of those --  MANDELL:  It's a kind of difficult situation where my friend  asks the interpreter to interpret for Mr. Joseph  whether or not there is a word which the interpreter  is going to have to himself express in order to convey  the meaning.  I can't really --  No -- with respect, the interpreter doesn't have to  use the word.  He can repeat the question.  Is there a  word --  MANDELL:  Word for -- what is he going to say?  PLANT:  The fact is, My Lord, that this witness does speak  English, and I don't think, with respect, that the  question was conceptually difficult.  COURT:  Well, this is just one of the difficulties of using  an interpreter, and if he has to use the word, he has  to use the word.  The witness may say that's a word I  don't recognize.  PLANT:  My desire is simply to find out what the word is.  It appears that --  COURT:  I think the interpreter can interpret the question  in such a way as he thinks appropriate for  interpretation or translation, and the witness can say  yes or no to that, or he can say I don't recognize the  word.  PLANT:  Well, it may be then that the question should be  re-asked by Mr. Holland.  COURT:  Yes please.  Ask the witness, please, Mr. Holland,  if there is a Wet'suwet'en word for family.  WITNESS:   It's a very difficult one.  It's Elah Gisk'ak'.  PLANT:  Do you have the spelling for that, Mr. Mitchell?  TRANSLATOR:  E-l-a-h, G-i-s-k'a-k'.  PLANT:  Thank you.  Q   May I have the blue book of photographs placed before  Mr. Alfred.  And I am moving to another subject, Mr.  Alfred.  Tab 15, which I think is Exhibit 160.  It's a  picture.  Do you recognize that building, Mr. Alfred? 1  A  2  Q  3  A  4  Q  5  6  A  7  Q  8  A  9  Q  10  11  A  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  Q  19  20  A  21  22  Q  23  A  24  Q  25  26  A  27  28  Q  29  30  31  A  32  33  Q  34  35  36  A  37  Q  38  39  A  40  Q  41  42  A  43  Q  44  45  A  46  47  Q  3084  Yes.  And can you tell the Court what's in it?  Moricetown store.  That's a store just off the highway just north of  Moricetown?  That's right.  Is that store owned by a Wet'suwet'en person?  No.  Is that store there with the permission of Wah Tah  K'eght, to your knowledge?  That store was there at the time -- it was put there  at the time when Bazil was -- Peter Bazil was Wah Tah  K'eght, and there was no permission sought from him at  that time.  All of a sudden that store was there.  That establishment -- the store was down at the foot  of that hill at one time, but then they moved it up  above.  Did people from Moricetown shop at the store or buy  gas there from time to time to your knowledge?  I don't go there myself, so I wouldn't be able to say,  because I go to a store elsewhere myself.  Where do you go to do your shopping, Mr. Alfred?  We go shopping at a bigger store in Smithers.  Do you ask Gordon Hall for permission every time you  go shopping at the store in Smithers?  Do the people who have stores there ask Gordon Hall's  permission?  Well, I am much the same way.  That's sort of a silly question, isn't it?  You  wouldn't think of asking Gordon Hall for permission to  shop at a store in Smithers, would you?  Now, if Gordon Hall had a store within his territory,  traditionally I would ask permission to go there.  I want to turn your attention now to Exhibit 162,  which is a photograph at Tab 18 of this book.  Do you  recognize this -- what this photo shows, Mr. Alfred?  It looks like a sawmill.  There is a sawmill on the highway near Moricetown.  Does that photograph look like that sawmill to you?  Yes.  Is that sawmill there with the permission of Wah Tah  K'eght?  No.  To your knowledge do people from Moricetown work at  that sawmill?  I don't think so, because there doesn't seem like  there is anybody from the village working there.  Do you know if people at Moricetown have worked at 3085  1 that mill in the past?  2 A   I don't know whether they did or not.  They may have.  3 MR. PLANT:   I am going to change materials now.  If I might  4 have Exhibit 164 for a minute.  5 THE REGISTRAR:  The map, My Lord.  6 MR. PLANT:  Thank you, Madam Registrar.  7 Q   When Miss Mandell was asking you about the logging of  8 the Moricetown Band, she marked some areas with an "x"  9 which are west of Moricetown, which you have  10 identified as places where the Moricetown Band Council  11 had done some logging.  Do you recall that?  12 A   Yes.  13 Q   My understanding, Mr. Alfred, is that there is now  14 more logging being done by the Moricetown Band, since  15 the date of this map, further up the hill west of  16 Moricetown.  Can you confirm that for me?  17 A   Yes.  18 Q   As Wah Tah K'eght are you receiving any compensation  19 for the use -- for this use of your territory by the  20 Moricetown Band?  21 A   They don't pay me for the use of the territory, but  22 they -- I can -- the family and myself can make a  23 living off that.  24 Q   Because you have -- you yourself have a job driving  25 truck, as I understand it, as part of this operation?  26 A   Yes, I make a living as a truck driver, and that is  27 one way of compensating me.  28 Q   Have you ever heard of something called the mountain  29 pine beetle?  30 A   Yes, I have heard of it.  31 Q   My understanding is that much of the logging in the  32 Bulkley Valley is being done because there is a  33 problem with the mountain pine beetle in the Bulkley  34 Valley.  35 A   I have heard of the pine beetle, but not within that  36 area there, but further north along the highway they  37 had a small patch of problem there, which -- where  38 they had the problem with the pine needles.  It was  39 cut out.  40 Q   Is that within your territory?  41 A   Yes, where they had -- where they had beetle problem  42 there, white people cut that out.  43 Q   I would just like to know where that is a little  44 better than I do now.  45 A   It would be along Highway 16 just a little north of  46 the village.  47 Q   Of course if the trees aren't cut, then the beetle 3086  1 just spreads everywhere; is that your understanding?  2 A   That I don't know about.  I don't know the beetles'  3 activities at all.  4 Q   Thank you.  I don't need Exhibit 164 anymore.  5 I am going to change the subject again, Mr. Alfred.  6 You told us a few -- well, quite a few days ago that  7 your first kill is a coyote.  Do you remember telling  8 us that?  9 A   Yes.  10 Q   And as I understand it, the coyote was caught in one  11 of your grandmother's traps?  12 A   Yes.  13 Q   And it was still alive when you came on it?  14 A   Yes.  15 Q   Was it a leg hold trap?  16 A   Yes.  17 Q   You told us that you worked as a section foreman for  18 the CNR for 13 years.  Where did you do that work?  19 A  We went away where they took us.  I was at Telkwa,  20 then down towards Prince George, a place called the  21 Beadnesti.  22 MR. PLANT:  I don't know that place.  Do you have that?  23 THE TRANSLATOR: B-e-a-d-n-e-s-t-i.  2 4 MR. PLANT:  25 Q   Well, let's use that as our spelling for now.  Is that  26 place near Prince George, Mr. Alfred?  27 A   Yes.  28 Q   What does a section foreman do?  29 A  A section foreman has co-workers, and we go to fix mud  30 holes, and if there is a broken rail, you replace it.  31 Q   You fix the track?  32 A   Yes.  33 Q   Did you work around the track to clean out culverts?  34 A   Yes, we cleaned out any debris that should float into  35 the culverts.  36 Q   You then, as I understand it, you worked for the  37 Department of Highways for 15 years?  38 A   Yes.  39 Q   Was that a full-time job?  40 A   Yes.  41 Q   All year round?  42 A   Yes.  43 Q   And that's the Provincial Department of Highways?  If  44 that causes you trouble, that's fine.  I'm not aware  45 of any other Department of Highways.  Well, maybe I  46 better make sure of that.  Where did you work?  47 A   In Smithers. 1  Q  2  3  A  4  5  6  7  Q  8  A  9  10  Q  11  A  12  Q  13  A  14  Q  15  A  16  Q  17  A  18  Q  19  A  20  Q  21  A  22  Q  23  A  24  25  26  Q  27 THE  COURT  28  2 9 MR.  PLANT  30 THE  COURT  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  3087  You have an office in Smithers or a place to go to  everyday?  I didn't have an office there, but a white man had an  office there who I worked for, and there was a lot of  other white men worked in there.  We all went there  everyday.  Did you do work maintaining the highways?  My job was to haul gravel and fill in pot-holes, and  in the winter months plowing the roads.  And was that on the highways in the area of Smithers?  Yes.  Up as far north as Moricetown?  Yes.  Farther than Moricetown?  No.  And how far south?  To Wakefield.  Wakefield?  Wakefield.  Working on Yellowhead office, the Telkwa High Road?  Yes.  Some of the other roads in the area?  Me, I was mainly on the highway.  Just go through the  high road and then onto the highway.  That was on the  return trip.  I have some more questions about your interrogatories.  :  Are you changing the subject -- are you changing  subjects now?  :  I am, My Lord, and it would be convenient.  :   We will take the adjournment now.  (PROCEEDINGS ADJOURNED FOR A SHORT RECESS)  I HEREBY CERTIFY THE FOREGOING TO  BE A TRUE AND ACCURATE TRANSCRIPT  OF THE PROCEEDINGS HEREIN TO THE  BEST OF MY SKILL AND ABILITY.  LORI OXLEY  OFFICIAL REPORTER  UNITED REPORTING SERVICE LTD. 3088  1 (PROCEEDINGS RESUMED AT 11:15)  2  3 THE REGISTRAR:  Order in court.  4 THE COURT:  Mr. Plant.  5 THE REGISTRAR:  Ready to proceed, my Lord.  6 MR. PLANT:  7 Q   Before I ask you some questions about the  8 interrogatories, Mr. Alfred, do you know what the  9 Wet'suwet'en word for caretaker is, and I'm thinking  10 about the context you told us that Bazil Michell was  11 the caretaker of the territory?  12 A  Waghuntii.  13 MR. PLANT:  Can I have the spelling, please?  14 THE TRANSLATOR:  Waghuntii, W-a-g-h-u-n-t-i-i.  15 MR. PLANT:  16 Q   Thank you.  Now, Mr. Alfred, I'm going to ask you to  17 look again at the interrogatories.  This is the second  18 set, the one that was dated January 1987, and perhaps  19 you could look at the first page of Exhibit A,  20 question 2.  Exhibit A I think is the attachment to  21 the affidavit, and question 2 reads:  "Where were you  22 born", and your answer was "Moricetown".  That's  23 correct, is it, Mr. Alfred?  24 A   That's right.  25 Q   And then there's a word in brackets that's spelled as  26 follows:  T-s-a d-a-a-s d-h-u-k.  Do you recognize  27 that word, Mr. Alfred?  My question, firstly, is  28 simply do you recognize that word?  29 A   That's not K'ayah Wig'et, is it?  30 Q   No.  The K'ayah Wig'et is the usual term for  31 Moricetown, isn't it?  32 A   I can't -- I can't recognize that word.  Maybe you can  33 pronounce it for me.  34 MR. PLANT:  I'm not going to try, because I don't think my  35 pronunciation would assist you, but I wonder if Mr.  36 Mitchell can pronounce it?  I can show you the page on  37 which it's written, if that would help.  38 THE TRANSLATOR:  Looks like Tsa daas dhuk.  3 9 MR. PLANT:  40 Q   Having heard Mr. Mitchell give it his best, does that  41 recall anything to mind?  42 A   The place where I was born is called Ts'e tes t'uk.  43 Q   Is that the name of the house in which you were born?  44 A   The name of the place where I was born is Ts'e tes  45 t'uk.  46 MR. PLANT:  Do we have a spelling for that, Mr. Mitchell?  47 THE COURT:  That's marked on Exhibit 84, is it not, just north 3089  1 of Moricetown?  2 MR. PLANT:  Is it marked on Exhibit 84, my Lord?  3 THE COURT:  Yes.  4 MR. PLANT:  Yes, it is.  There is one spelling of it, if you  5 want, Mr. Mitchell.  It's different from the spelling  6 in the interrogatory.  7 THE COURT:  Is that how you would spell it, Mr. Mitchell?  8 THE TRANSLATOR:  Ts'e tes t'uk, T-s-'-e t-e-s d'u-k(sic).  9 MR. PLANT:  You say that's the place where you were born --  10 excuse me, Mr. Holland, were you explaining something  11 to the witness?  12 THE INTERPRETER:  No.  I wasn't explaining anything.  13 MR. PLANT:  14 Q   That place, Ts'e tes t'uk, you say that's the place  15 where you were born, Mr. Alfred?  16 A   It was a place of residence where we were living is  17 where I was born, a place called Ts'e tes t'uk.  18 Q   Was it a building?  19 A   Yes.  It was a house built on the place called Ts'e  20 tes t'uk, is -- it was on top of the hill.  21 Q   Is that hill in Moricetown, Mr. Alfred?  22 A   Yes.  23 THE TRANSLATOR:  Excuse me, Mr. Plant.  24 MR. PLANT:  I wanted to — I'm sorry.  25 THE TRANSLATOR:  There's a correction on that.  It's number 522,  26 Ts'e tes t'uk, it's on the list.  2 7 MR. PLANT:  Thank you.  28 THE COURT:  Spelled the same way or differently?  29 THE TRANSLATOR:  With a T.  30 THE COURT:  Yes, thank you.  31 MR. PLANT:  32 Q   Now, turning now to page -- question number 6, Mr.  33 Alfred, the question is:  34  35 "Of what church if any are you a member?"  36  37 And the answer is:  38  39 "Holy Rosary Catholic Church, Moricetown."  40  41 Is that correct?  42 A   That's right.  43 Q   Now, if I might ask you to turn to question 18, that  44 question reads:  45  46 "To the extent that your recollection permits,  47 state the names, places, and dates of birth of 1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33 MR.  34 MR.  35 THE  36 THE  37 THE  38  39 THE  4 0 MR.  41 THE  42 MR.  43  44  45  46  47  A  Q  A  Q  A  A  PLANT  RUSH:  TRANS  COURT  TRANS  COURT  PLANT  COURT  PLANT  Q  A  3090  your grandparents, children and grandchildren, the  places where each of these individuals has lived,  and where appropriate, now lives, the name of the  Indian band to which each of these individuals has  belonged or now belongs, and the name of their  Wet'suwet'en clan and house."  You see that question, Mr. Alfred?  Yes.  My Lord, I should advise you that in interrogatory  proceedings before Mr. Justice Locke certain parts of  that question were ordered not necessary to answer.  The answer that appears in the interrogatories begins  in the first paragraph:  "My mother's mother was Lucy  Pius", I think it should be.  That's the name of your  grandmother, Mr. Alfred, Lucy Pius?  Yes.  "She was born in Moricetown, I don't know the  date.  Her clan was Laksilyu and her house is" --  And then there's a word that is spelled as follows:  T-z-a-k-h-a-1-w-a-h-t-a-h.  Your grandmother's house,  what was your grandmother's house, Mr. Alfred?  You almost mentioned that name of that house, but you  stopped.  I would like you to mention the name of that  house, and then in turn I will tell you whether you're  correct or not.  All right.  My reading of this word is Tsakhalwahtah.  Is that the name of your mother's mother's house?  You almost had it right there.  It could very well be  Tsee k'al way yex or Tsee k'al wet'en.  :  I think those are both new words.  It's 398.  LATOR: Tsee k'al wa yex.  :  Is that 398?  LATOR: No, it isn't.  T-s-e-e k'-a-l w-a y-e-x, and  Tsee k'al wet'en, T-s-e-e k'-a-l w-e-t'-e-n.  What is the last letter?  N.  N?  The second name that you mentioned, Mr. Alfred, Tsee  k'al wet'en, does that mean "People of the flat rock"?  Yes.  It's "people of the flat rock", or "From the  flat rock".  So with that explanation, the first part of your 3091  1 answer to question 18 is true; the part that I read a  2 minute or so as --  3 A   Yes.  4 Q   Your answer continues, I quote:  5  6 "My mother's father was Jimmy Mule, I don't know  7 when he was born or the date.  I was told by  8 my" —  9  10 And I think the word should be "mother":  11  12 That he was a non-Indian and had no clan or  13 house."  14  15 Was that part of your answer correct?  16 A   Yes.  My grandmother had told me of this, and when  17 my -- when my mother was -- grandmother was still  18 pregnant with my mother this person had passed on, and  19 my mother had never seen the father.  20 Q   Thank you.  The next part of your answer:  21  22 "I don't know who my father's father was.  My  23 father's mother was Christine Alfred.  She was  24 born in Moricetown, I don't know the date.  Her  25 house was Grizzly and her clan I do not know."  26  27 Can you tell me, please, simply whether that answer is  28 correct, that part of your answer is correct?  29 A   Yes.  At the time when that question was put to me I  30 mentioned Cassyex, and then I knew my father was  31 Gitdumden, so the mother would be Gitdumden also.  32 Q   Is Cassyex also known as the Grizzly House?  33 A   Yes.  34 Q   There was a part of your answer about your mother  35 which I don't have to ask you about, but the last part  36 of your answer reads:  37  38 "My children were all born in Smithers and live in  39 Moricetown.  Dolores Alfred is 27, Ricky Alfred is  40 25, Tony Alfred is 22, Margie Alfred is 20.  Their  41 clan is Gilseyhu, and the chief of this house is  42 Namox."  43  44 And recognizing that your children are a year older  45 now, was that answer correct at the time you gave it?  46 A   Yeah.  There was one child missing on there, and the  47 clan is Tsayu. 1  Q  2  A  3  4  5  6  THE  COURT  7  8  MR.  PLANT  9  THE  COURT  10  MR.  PLANT  11  THE  COURT  12  MR.  PLANT  13  14  THE  TRANS  15  THE  COURT  16  MR.  PLANT  17  THE  TRANS  18  THE  COURT  19  THE  TRANS  20  THE  COURT  21  MR.  PLANT  22  Q  23  24  25  A  26  Q  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  A  41  Q  42  43  A  44  MR.  PLANT  45  46  47  3092  So the clan is wrong in the answer?  I didn't give that answer Laksamshu, it's Tsayu.  The  mistake could have been that Laksamshu and Tsayu are  almost as one, that's where that mistake could have  stemmed from.  Can I have the name of the spelling of the clan,  please.  Tsayu?  Yes.  T-s-a-y-u.  Thank you.  And I believe he's now used the name of another  clan, Laksamshu.  LATOR: 133.  :  Thank you.  :  I used the word Gilseyhu.  LATOR: 132.  :  132?  LATOR: Yes.  :  Thank you.  And the name that's given in the answer here is  Gilseyhu.  Do you see that, Mr. Alfred?  It's on the  last line of the answer.  Yes.  Thank you.  Could you turn to question 26  page 7, and that question reads:  which is on  "What do you understand the word Wet'suwet'en to  mean or describe as used in paragraphs 51, 52 and  53 and so on of the further amended statement of  claim?"  Your answer is:  "Wet'suwet'en means 'The people of the first place  and where the water receded.'"  You see that?  Yes.  And that answer was correct at the time that you gave  it?  Yes.  :  Question 32 you were asked about chiefs of the  Wet'suwet'en who were not plaintiffs in the action,  and you told us in the answer at the top of page 8 who  the other chiefs in your house are, and -- 2  MR.  PLANT  3  THE  COURT  4  MR.  PLANT  5  Q  6  7  8  9  10  11  12  A  13  Q  14  15  A  16  Q  17  18  19  A  20  Q  21  A  22  23  Q  24  A  25  THE  COURT  26  27  28  29  MR.  PLANT  30  31  THE  COURT  32  MR.  PLANT  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  THE  COURT  45  MR.  PLANT  46  THE  COURT  47  MR.  PLANT  3093  1 THE COURT:  Sorry, of your house?  Who the other chiefs in your house are.  Oh, in your house, yes, all right.  And that part of your answer reads:  "The other chiefs in my house are Cecil Alfred,  Dorothy (Alfred) George, Irene Brown, Janet  George, Christine William, and Warren William."  Do you see that answer?  Yes.  Now, your mother is also one of the chiefs in your  house, isn't she?  Yes.  Now, how old is Warren William, or perhaps I should  ask you:  Is Warren William one of the chiefs in your  house?  Yes.  Do you know how old he is?  He could be older than ten, somewhere between ten and  twelve.  He's still a boy?  Yes.  :  I'm sorry, Mr. Plant, but I'm not following this  precisely, because I thought you said that question 32  asked for the chiefs of the Wet'suwet'en, not  plaintiffs in the action.  It seems to me --  :  Yes.  I was trying to summarize the question that  had been asked in the interrogatory.  :  We've jumped now to the chiefs of the house.  :  Yes.  Question 31 in the interrogatories reads:  "Do you know of any hereditary chiefs of the  Wet'suwet'en who are not plaintiffs in this  action?"  And question 32 was:  "If you do, identify them and state why to  your knowledge these hereditary chiefs of the  Wet'suwet'en are not plaintiffs?"  All right.  And the --  What was the --  The answer began with, and I'll read the full answer THE COURT  MR. PLANT  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19 THE  2 0 MR.  21  22  23 THE  2 4 MR.  25  2 6 THE  2 7 MR.  28  2 9 THE  3 0 MR.  31 MS.  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  3094  now to the witness, it might assist your Lordship, at  the top of page 8.  :  It would help me better and I would have much more  confidence in what I am understanding if I knew the  answer to question 31.  :  Oh, the answer to question 31 was "Please see answer  to question 29", which is going to take us back to an  entirely different question, my Lord.  I was trying to  in the interests of time short circuit.  The problem  is that -- or not the problem, the issue was whether  or not all of the chiefs of the Wet'suwet'en were  named as plaintiffs.  That was what a number of  questions in the interrogatories were directed at, and  it has appeared since then, not just in the answer to  these interrogatories but throughout all of the  evidence, that there are a number of chiefs of the  Wet'suwet'en who are not plaintiffs.  Those include  the people who are sub-chiefs in a house.  :  Yes.  I understand that.  : And as part of the answer to question 32 Mr. Alfred  was naming the sub-chiefs, as I understood it, in his  house.  :  Yes.  We've got those now.  :  And I've then read the names as he had given them to  us .  COURT:  Yes.  PLANT:  And asked the witness whether his mother was also a  sub-chief.  COURT:  Yes.  PLANT:  And perhaps I should do this.  Mr. Alfred —  MANDELL:  Excuse me, my Lord, just if I could assist, when  the question "Do you know of any hereditary chiefs of  the Wet'suwet'en" -- "Do you know of any hereditary  chiefs of the Wet'suwet'en who are not plaintiffs in  the action", to that question the answer was referred  back to question 29, and the answer is "No".  This  refers to the principal chiefs of the Wet'suwet'en who  represent the Wet'suwet'en clans.  There are holders  of other chief's names who are considered chiefs but  are not properly represented in this court action by  another Wet'suwet'en but are properly -- I'm sorry --  there are holders of other chief's names who are  considered chiefs but are properly represented in this  court action by another named Wet'suwet'en chief, and  now my friend is asking with respect to the chiefs of  his house, who are they, but the initial answer is  that everyone's represented and some are represented  COURT  PLANT  COURT  PLANT THE COURT  MS.  9  10  11  12  13  14  15 THE  16  17 MR.  18 THE  19 MR.  20  21  22  23  24  25 THE  2 6 MR.  27  2 8 THE  2 9 MR.  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  4 0 THE  41  42  4 3 MR.  44  45  46  47  COURT:  PLANT  COURT  PLANT  3095  by chiefs -- by other high chiefs.  Well, I'm sorry to be so difficult, but I -- the way  the evidence has been led, now I am being asked to  attribute chiefs of houses to chiefs of clans.  The  question was who -- or what Wet'suwet'en chiefs are  not plaintiffs, and the answer I've been given is  sub-chiefs of the house.  Now, perhaps I haven't heard  the whole answer.  MANDELL:  No.  I believe that on the question about whether  or not he knows of any hereditary chiefs of the  Wet'suwet'en who are not plaintiffs in the action, the  answer was given in a question and answer that my  friend didn't refer you to, and that is that all the  chiefs are represented in the action.  Yes.  Well, can I be given the wording of question  32 again, please?  31.  No, 32.  That's what I wrote down.  32 is -- well, 31:  "Do you know of any hereditary chiefs of the  Wet'suwet'en who are not plaintiffs in this  action?"  COURT:  Yes.  PLANT:  The answer given is "Please see answer to question  29".  COURT:  What is question 32 again?  PLANT:  The question 32 is:  "If you do know of any hereditary chiefs who are  not plaintiffs in the action" --  I'm interpolating those words:  "Identify them and state why to your knowledge  these hereditary chiefs of the Wet'suwet'en are  not plaintiffs."  COURT:  That's a completely different question from the one  when I -- the one I think you put in the first place  to the witness.  PLANT:  My Lord, the question -- the only reason for putting  the question to the witness was because as part of  that answer he had stated who the other chiefs in his  house are, and I was not interested in raising the  matters that were -- 3096  1 THE COURT:  I'm just sitting up here in the dark, Mr. Plant.  I  2 don't even know now what the question is.  3 MR. PLANT:  Yes.  4 THE COURT:  Because the question put first was:  5  6 "Name the chiefs of the Wet'suwet'en who are not  7 plaintiffs in the action."  9  10  11  12  MR.  PLANT  13  THE  COURT  14  MR.  PLANT  15  16  17  18  THE  COURT  19  20  MR.  PLANT  21  THE  COURT  22  MR.  PLANT  23  24  THE  COURT  25  26  27  28  29  MR.  PLANT  30  THE  COURT  31  MR.  PLANT  32  Q  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  A  43  Q  44  45  A  46  Q  47  And that's of course what we were -- If I had the  questions and answers in front of me I would be able  to follow them.  I would be happy to provide them to you.  That might solve the problem.  Yes.  I had a much narrower purpose in mind.  In  fact, the question I had asked Mr. Alfred was simply  the question of whether he had properly stated the  names of the other chiefs of his house.  No, no.  The question you put to him was the other  chiefs of the Wet'suwet'en.  Yes.  I —  At least that's what I wrote down.  Well, perhaps over the lunch-hour, my Lord, I will  arrange to have a copy made.  You don't need to do that.  You can start over  again, if you want.  I'm at the moment quite uncertain  first what the question was, secondly what the answer  is in relation to it, and I'm sure it's all very very  simple.  Well —  Why don't you start again.  Mr. Alfred, in your answer to question 32 of the  interrogatories, in part of your answer you say, and  I'm quoting:  "The other chiefs in my house are Cecil Alfred,  Dorothy (Alfred) George, Irene Brown, Janet  George, Christine William, and Warren William."  That's the end of the quote.  Now, Mr. Alfred, you are  the head chief of your house; is that correct?  Right.  And there are other chiefs in your house; is that  correct?  That's right.  And have you correctly stated the names of the other  chiefs in your house in your answer to question 32? 1  A  2  3  4  5  Q  6  A  7  8  Q  9  10  A  11  Q  12  13  A  14  15  16  17  Q  18  A  19  Q  20  A  21  22  Q  23  A  24  Q  25  26  27  A  28  29  Q  30  31  32  33  34  A  35  Q  36  37  38  A  39  Q  40  41  A  42  43  Q  44  45  A  46  47  3097  Yes.  The answer there, I just put down my mother and  my sisters, and they're in the immediate family, but  in the feast hall there are others that have names  that I didn't put down in the answer.  And those others are also chiefs in your house?  Yes.  There's others in my house that are of the --  members of the house that are also chiefs.  And actually in the answer to question 32 you -- your  mother's name doesn't appear; is that correct?  No.  So you left her name off when you were answering this  question; is that correct?  Yes.  I -- I forgot to put my mother's name on there  and others, I just simply forgot in time.  I just  managed to put my sister's and brother's name on  there.  Do you know Thomas Holland?  Yes.  And does he have a chief's name?  Yes.  I -- he has -- also has a name, and I forget at  the moment.  Is he a chief in your house, Mr. Alfred?  Yes.  Thank you.  I'm going to change the subject now, Mr.  Alfred.  Were you a band councillor of the Moricetown  Band at one time?  I forget at the moment, but sometime back I believe I  was in for one term or one season.  I'm going to show you a document and ask you if you've  seen it before.  It's a three-page document.  I have a  copy for your Lordship.  The -- on the third page at  near the bottom can you tell me if that's your  signature, the words "Henry Alfred"?  Yes.  My understanding is that this is a by-law made by the  Moricetown Indian Band in 1962 which related to  fishing on the Indian Reserve.  Do you recall that?  Yes.  I remember that.  And that's a copy of the by-law that is there in front  of you?  I don't know the front page, but where I put my  signature, I recognize that.  And how about the second page?  I guess the by-law  begins on the second page; is that correct?  I recognize this by-law, but just wondered how come  you have two dates on there, one August and then July  also. 1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25 THE  2 6 MR.  27 THE  2 8 MS.  2 9 MR.  30 THE  31 THE  32 THE  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  MR.  3098  Q   Well, Mr. Alfred, can you recall why that would be  there?  A   I couldn't recall why it would be there, but that's  1962, 25 years ago.  Q   It's hard to remember things that happened 25 years  ago, is it?  A   Yes.  Sometimes I find it hard to remember.  Q   But you can recognize the last two pages of this  three-page document as the Moricetown Band Fishing  By-law from 1962?  A   Yes.  Q   My Lord, I would ask that the -- well, let me ask you  this, Mr. Alfred, before I do that:  Do you know if  the D.I.A. approved this by-law, Mr. Alfred?  A   This by-law was given to D.I.A., and I don't recall  whether it was approved or not.  What they did with it  I do not know, and this is the first time I seen that  document since.  Q   My Lord, the three pages were taken or comprise  Exhibit A from an affidavit of Victor Jim, which was  filed by the plaintiffs or filed by -- yes, the  plaintiffs in another capacity perhaps in another  proceeding, and it's the Supreme Court action number  A861548.  COURT:  Well, let's —  PLANT:  I'm going to tender --  COURT:  Let's see if there's any objection.  MANDELL:  There's no objection.  PLANT:  I was going to tender the three pages.  COURT:  Yes, all right, no objection.  REGISTRAR:  Exhibit 179.  COURT:  Thank you.  EXHIBIT 179 - 1962 Moricetown Band Fishing By-law,  three-page document  PLANT:  Q   Now, Mr. Alfred, you've given us some evidence about  fishing at Moricetown.  I want to read to you from an  affidavit of Victor Jim first.  Did you know Victor  Jim, Mr. Alfred?  A   Yes.  Q   Is he a Wet'suwet'en person?  A   Yes.  Q   And he lives at Moricetown?  A   Yes.  Q   I want to see if I can secure your agreement to the -- 3099  1 to two of the statements in this affidavit.  In --  2 well, I'll provide you with a copy of the paragraphs.  3 It's paragraph 5, Victor Jim says:  4  5 "The Moricetown band is located at a prime fishing  6 location, and we are in the process of developing  7 a commercial campground for the convenience of  8 sports fishermen who visit our reserve.  We have  9 had thousands of sports fishermen fishing from our  10 reserve and purchasing fishing permits over the  11 years."  12  13 I'm going to stop there and ask you if that part of  14 what Victor Jim has said is true?  15 A   Yes.  16 Q   Now, I want to read to you from paragraph 6:  17  18 "As a result of by-law number 1" --  19  20 And I should stop there.  By-law number 1 is the name  21 of the 1962 fishing by-law, isn't it, Mr. Alfred?  Do  22 you recall that?  23 MS. MANDELL:  Excuse me, my Lord, I would suggest if my friend  24 is going to read a paragraph to the witness he read  25 the whole paragraph.  He stopped dead flight in the  26 middle of the sentence, and I think the whole thing  27 should go in.  28 THE COURT:  Is the remaining portion connected with the part  29 that has been read?  30 MR. PLANT:  It's unrelated to the —  31 MS. MANDELL:  I think it is.  32 MR. PLANT:  Sorry.  33 MS. MANDELL:  I think it's completely related.  It's in the same  34 sentence.  35 THE COURT:  You say it is, Miss Mandell, and Mr. Plant says it  36 isn't.  37 MR. PLANT:  Well, I'm quite happy to tender the affidavit for  38 your Lordship to review.  The balance of the sentence  39 has to do with whether there has ever been a challenge  40 by the plaintiffs against their right to issue  41 permits, which is not the reason I'm asking the  42 witness for the confirmation of the other part of the  43 statement.  44 MS. MANDELL:  Well, the first part of the paragraph suggests  45 that there's been a flood of sports fishermen fishing  46 on the reserve purchasing permits over the years.  47 It's unclear whose jurisdiction it was to issue the MR. PLANT  9 THE  10 MR.  11 THE  12 MR.  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32 THE  33 MR.  34  35  36  37  38 THE  3 9 MR.  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  COURT  PLANT  COURT  PLANT  Q  A  COURT  PLANT  COURT  PLANT  Q  A  3100  permits and under whose authority this whole visiting  of the area by sports fishermen was conducted, and I  think it's left very ambiguous, which is a kind way of  stating it, as to what is to be drawn from the  statement itself.  Well, I can assure my friend that the only interest  I have at this point is expediting the proceeding.  The problem with --  Do you object to reading the other part?  No, I don't.  All right, let's.  It gets us back to the same old problem of the  interrogatories, because it may lead us to other  things, and I don't object to any part of it, it's  just not a necessary expenditure of time.  Mr. Alfred,  could you turn back to paragraph 5 on page 3 of Mr.  Jim's affidavit, and I want to read you the whole of  the sentence that I only read part of a minute ago.  It begins at the top of page three:  "We have had thousands of sports fishermen fishing  from our reserve and purchasing fishing permits  over the years, and there has never been a  challenge by the plaintiffs herein or any other  sports fishing organization against our rights to  issue permits prior to the application that went  in on June 13th."  Is that statement true, Mr. Alfred?  Yes.  :  Now, who are the plaintiffs?  :  The plaintiffs in the proceeding in which this  affidavit was sworn are the Attorney General of  British Columbia on the -- and then there's a number  of associations:  The B.C. Wildlife Federation, Sports  Fishermen Coalition, and so on.  :  Yes, thank you.  Mr. Alfred, as part of that fishing by-law of 1962  there were permits issued to sports fishermen to fish  from the -- to fish within the Moricetown Reserve; is  that correct?  It don't seem like it at that time, but recently we  have been.  Did the Moricetown Band receive income from the sale  of those permits? 3101  1 A   This -- I don't know the business of the band at all,  2 you shouldn't be asking me about that, maybe somebody  3 that knows the band business, like Dan, you might ask.  4 MR. PLANT:  Well, you were on the band council for a year when  5 this by-law was enacted, and the idea was the permits  6 would be sold to white sports fishermen, correct?  7 MS. MANDELL:  Well, there's two questions in that, perhaps he  8 can --  9 MR. PLANT:  I would be happy to.  I thought it was already  10 understood that the answer to the first question was  11 yes.  You were on the Moricetown Indian Band Council  12 at the time that this by-law was issued, Mr. Alfred?  13 THE COURT:  Surely we have that answer already.  14 MR. PLANT:  Yes, all right.  Was it your understanding -- well,  15 that's fine, I don't need to ask that.  The by-law  16 speaks for itself.  I'm going to produce another  17 document for you, Mr. Alfred.  Have you seen that  18 document before?  19 MS. MANDELL:  I haven't seen it.  20 A   I never seen anything like that.  21 MR. PLANT:  22 Q   My reading of this is it's a questionnaire about  23 Moricetown fishing.  Did you ever answer any  24 questionnaire about Moricetown fishing?  25 A   I know that within the K'ayah Wig'et that different  26 clans have different fishing sites that I know.  Is  27 that -- is this paper referring to that?  28 Q   In a way it does, but it -- but it also asks questions  29 such as whether anyone in the family fishes or whether  30 smokehouses should be rebuilt in the canyon and so on.  31 Were you ever asked those questions within the last  32 year or two by someone as part of a questionnaire?  33 A   Yes.  In regards to rebuilding smokehouses, we had a  34 meeting, we talked about it -- about rebuilding  35 smokehouses, and also the use of the fishing site,  36 fishing sites that we should -- whether we use the  37 fishing sites, the chiefs of the -- holders of fishing  38 sites should be -- should have the fish from that area  39 first before they are distributed.  40 MR. PLANT:  Thank you, Mr. Alfred.  My Lord, I'm in a difficult  41 position at the moment.  On July 31st your Lordship  42 directed that certain documents be produced, including  43 a questionnaire that was referred to in plaintiff's  44 document 3339.  We haven't had production of any of  45 those documents yet, and I at that point, or because  46 of that, that sort of stops my questioning in this  47 area.  I should say, I believe a demand was -- another 1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  THE  COURT  10  11  12  13  MR.  PLANT  14  15  16  THE  COURT  17  18  MS.  MANDE  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  MR.  PLANT  28  29  THE  COURT  30  MR.  PLANT  31  THE  COURT  32  MR.  PLANT  33  Q  34  35  A  36  MR.  PLANT  37  38  THE  COURT  39  MR.  PLANT  40  Q  41  A  42  Q  43  A  44  Q  45  46  A  47  Q  3102  demand was made by Miss Sigurdson on the 25th of  January for production of these documents, and to my  knowledge we haven't had a reply to that demand.  I  don't know if the documents exist or not, but  proceeding on the assumption that they do, because the  questionnaire is attached to Mr. Jim's affidavit, my  cross-examination can't proceed beyond the point that  it has on this issue.  What, are you asking your friend if there are  questionnaires, or if there is a questionnaire signed  by the -- or responsive questionnaire signed by the  witness?  I want them all, and if that includes one signed by  the witness, and it may or may not, I don't know, then  I'm obviously particularly interested in that.  Miss Mandell, do you have some questionnaires for  your friend?  iL:  Excuse me, my Lord.  Well, my Lord, with respect  to this questionnaire, the witness can't identify it,  so I don't know what further leads may be drawn from  it.  With respect to the other requests, I don't have  any up-to-date knowledge as to where the -- where the  production of those documents at this moment will  lead.  I do know that there is somebody who's been  involved in looking after that request, and I don't  know what the state of it is.  I'll proceed.  If something comes to light later  then --  All right.  I will govern myself accordingly.  Thank you.  Mr. Alfred, I'm going to change the subject again.  Is  there a picnic site at Taltzen Lake?  Yeah.  There is one at Taltzen, but --  :  Oh, perhaps we should wait until we get the number  of the word.  :  Well, we had it before.  And there are picnic tables there by the lake?  Yes.  And is that within the territory of Wah tah k'eght?  Yes.  And did Wah tah k'eght -- or was Wah tah k'eght  responsible for the building of that picnic site?  No.  There's a road that goes up to Taltzen lake from 1  2  3  A  4  Q  5  6  A  7  Q  8  9  10  A  11  12  13  Q  14  15  A  16  17  18  19  THE  COURT  20  21  A  22  23  MR.  PLANT  24  Q  25  26  A  27  28  29  THE  COURT  30  THE  TRANS  31  MR.  PLANT  32  Q  33  34  A  35  THE  COURT  36  MR.  PLANT  37  THE  COURT  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  3103  Highway 16 called the Kitsegukla Lake Road.  Are you  familiar with that road?  Yes.  And was that road constructed by the House of Wah tah  k'eght?  No.  My understanding is that that road or a trail has been  there since before you were born.  Are you aware of  that?  I didn't know where exactly the foot trails were in  there, but the only ones I knew was the ones going to  Ta begh tai.  There's been a road up to Kitsegukla Lake though for  as long as you can remember?  I never been in that Kitsegukla area at all, but I --  all I knew is the boundaries between Kitsegukla Lake  and Ta begh tai, and as long as I can remember it  was -- there was a road leading into the area.  :  Does that road go up the Trout Creek Valley, or is  it the same road that goes by MacDonald Lake?  No.  That's not the same road.  There's a different  road going into MacDonald Lake.  But the road up to Kitsegukla Lake, does it go up to  Trout Creek Valley?  Yes.  There's a road in there, but it goes towards --  there's a road going towards Tsee Ggexw on the foot of  the mountain.  :  What's that word, please?  LATOR:  Tsee Ggexw, 533.  Mr. Alfred, did you vote in the last provincial  election?  Yes, I did, at Moricetown.  Shall we adjourn for lunch?  Yes, my Lord.  Thank you. 3104  1 (PROCEEDINGS ADJOURNED AT 12:35)  2  3 I hereby certify the foregoing to be  4 a true and accurate transcript of the  5 proceedings herein transcribed to the  6 best of my skill and ability  7  8  9  10    11 Graham D. Parker  12 Official Reporter  13 United Reporting Service Ltd.  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47 THE  THE  3105  (PROCEEDINGS RECOMMENCED AFTER LUNCHEON  RECESS)  REGISTRAR:  Order in court.  Calling Delgamuukw against Her  Majesty The Queen at bar, My Lord.  Mr. Plant.  COURT  PLANT:  Q   Mr. Alfred, I place before you Tab 1 of the blue book  of photographs.  More accurately, I have put the  photograph that is at Tab 1 of that book in front of  you.  Do you recognize what is shown in that  photograph, Mr. Alfred?  My understanding is that's a  sign on the Yellowhead Highway either within -- in the  southern part of your territory or just outside it.  Does that refresh or enable you to identify this  picture?  A   It seems like I can't recognize that.  I have never  seen anything like that before.  Q   Are you aware -- have you ever heard of an individual  named Ben Ridennoure or Ridennoure?  And my spelling  is R-i-d-e-n-n-o-u-r-e.  A   The name that you mentioned sounds like there is  somebody living down by Adam's Igloo, but that person  is out of the boundaries of our territory.  Q   Adam's Igloo is a place on the Yellowhead Highway, Mr.  Alfred?  A   Yes.  Q   Is that inside or outside your territory?  A   Outside territory.  Q   My instructions are that Ben Ridennoure or Ridennoure  has a license to act as a hunting guide in the area on  the west side of the Bulkley between Telkwa and Trout  Creek up into the mountains, Hudson Bay Mountain area.  Do you have any knowledge of that?  A   No.  Q   On the other side of the Bulkley, in the area where  you told us that your traplines are.  THE COURT:  I'm sorry, Mr. Plant, was there an answer to that  about the guide license from Telkwa to —  PLANT:  Yes.  It was no.  COURT:  You don't know about that?  WITNESS:  No.  COURT:  All right.  Thank you.  Thank you.  I'm sorry.  PLANT:  Q On the other side of the Bulkley, Mr. Alfred, that's  to say the east side in the area where you have told  us that your traplines are, my instructions are that  7 MR.  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  3  39  4 0 MR.  41 THE  42 THE  43 THE  4 4 MR.  45  46  47 1  2  3  A  4  Q  5  6  7  8  9  A  10  Q  11  A  12  THE  TRANS  13  MR.  PLANT  14  THE  COURT  15  MR.  PLANT  16  Q  17  18  A  19  20  21  22  23  Q  24  25  A  26  Q  27  28  A  29  Q  30  31  A  32  33  34  35  36  Q  37  A  38  THE  COURT  39  MR.  PLANT  40  THE  COURT  41  MR.  PLANT  42  Q  43  44  A  45  Q  46  47  A  3106  Mr. Chaplan has a license to act as a hunting guide in  that area.  Do you have any knowledge about that?  No.  I do have a question about something that's on Exhibit  164.  I've finished with these photographs.  There is  a place on the east side of the Bulkley on this map  marked in red, IR number 3.  Do you see that, Mr.  Alfred?  Yes.  Can you tell me what that is please?  That's a reserve with a place called Whuus C'oo wenii.  LATOR: 517.  517, My Lord.  Thank you.  What is that reserve used for, if anything, Mr.  Alfred?  At one time my uncle had lived there, when he used to  go out into the traplines in the territory when he was  living there, but there is also other people had lived  in the same area.  I forget who they all were or how  many they were.  When you speak of your uncle, are you speaking of  Peter Bazil?  That's right.  And you don't know who the other people were who had  lived there?  No.  Is that area used for anything today to your  knowledge?  George Naziel's wife, whose father was there, and  since George Naziel and his wife looked after the  place, but I don't know -- they used to make hay there  also.  But since George Naziel died, I don't know what  the activities are out there.  Did George Naziel or Naziel hold the name Madeek?  That's right.  Is that N-o-z or N-e-z?  N-a-z-i-e-1.  Thank you.  And do you know the name of George Naziel's wife's  father?  That's my uncle, Peter Bazil.  Do you regard the place which is IR number 3 as part  of the territory of Wah Tah K'eght?  That reserve is right in the territory of Wah Tah 1  2  3  4  Q  5  THE  COURT  6  7  8  9  MR.  PLANT  10  11  12  THE  COURT  13  MR.  PLANT  14  15  THE  COURT  16  MR.  PLANT  17  18  THE  COURT  19  MR.  PLANT  20  THE  COURT  21  MR.  PLANT  22  Q  23  24  25  26  A  27  28  29  Q  30  31  32  A  33  34  Q  35  A  36  THE  COURT  37  MR.  PLANT  38  39  40  A  41  42  Q  43  44  A  45  Q  46  47  A  3107  K'eght, but being a reserve, satisfied as reserve, it  is the responsibility of council and D.I.A.  I look  after the territory of Wah Tah K'eght.  I wanted to ask you about another subject.  Before you leave that, I'm not sure I have got this  right.  George Naziel's wife and her father lived  there for a time.  Her father's name is Peter Bazil  and he was Madeek?  No.  My understanding was that George Naziel's  wife's father was there.  That person is Peter -- or  was Peter Bazil.  Yes.  After that time or perhaps at the same time George  Naziel and his wife looked after the area.  Yes.  And George Naziel has deceased.  He held the name  Madeek.  So it's George Naziel that was Madeek?  Yes.  All right.  Thank you.  Mr. Alfred, I understand that the Moricetown Band has  a license from the Provincial Government to take water  from Korea Creek and John Brown Creek.  Do you agree  that that is the case?  Yes, we agree with that, because the water from  that -- from creeks will be used by all the people  living in the village.  You told us a little bit about mining.  I want to ask  you some other questions about mining.  Do you know  where Mount Cronin is?  That place would be way out of our territory further  away from the boundary.  My understanding is that Mount --  Way past Haneec'etgehw.  :  Cronin was way past?  :  I didn't quite hear the last part of the answer, so  I was going to ask -- you think that Mount Cronin is  way past Haneec'etgehw?  It would be on the other side of Haneec'etgehw.  I  don't know of any mine this side of Haneec'etgehw.  Do you know of mines on the other side of  Haneec'etgehw?  Yes.  And to your knowledge has there been mining going on  there for a long time?  I don't know anything about or have knowledge of how 3108  1 long that mine has been in operation or anything about  2 it, because it's out towards Chapman Lake way, and I  3 don't know anything about that.  4 Q   It's outside your territory?  5 A   That's right.  6 Q   Do you know where the Silver King Basin is?  7 A   I believe Silver King is east of where Driftwood Creek  8 starts, and it's further south from where our  9 territory is, and our boundary is north of that area.  10 Q   Does your boundary follow Driftwood Creek?  11 A   Yes.  12 Q   Do you know if there has been any mining work, like  13 prospecting or exploration in the mountains around Two  14 Bridge Lake?  15 A   I don't know.  16 Q   Do you know if there has been any mining exploration  17 or prospecting in the Hudson Bay Mountain area that's  18 in -- within your territory?  19 A  Where the boundary comes down the mountain, I believe  20 there was some mining activities there, but it's just  21 on the outside of my boundary.  22 Q   When I asked you about Cronin Mountain, I wanted to be  23 sure that we are talking about the place that -- the  24 same place.  And at number 232 there is a word that I  25 don't want to try and pronounce.  Could you assist,  26 Mr. Mitchell.  27 THE TRANSLATOR:  Holiits T'sel dzez.  28 A   There is this place called Holiits T'sel dzez.  The  29 mine would be further east in relation to that  30 mountain.  31 Q   Is that mountain, Holiits T'sel dzez, on your  32 territory?  33 A   I think the boundary goes along -- it would be between  34 Haneec'etgehw and Nee Biil dilyee.  35 Q   Looking at the map, which is Exhibit 164, which has  36 Nee Biil dilyee and Haneec'etgehw printed on it, is it  37 your evidence that you think that the place named 232  38 is on the line somewhere between the other two places?  39 And I may have to get assistance with the  40 pronounciation of 232 again.  41 A  At this point you are naming different places, and I'm  42 confused at this time.  I just couldn't pinpoint  43 exactly where Holiits T'sel dzez is.  I would have to  44 consult with my mother to be sure exactly where it is.  45 Q   Mr. Alfred, I want to ask you some questions now about  46 the traplines.  47 THE COURT:  Before we leave that, Mr. Plant, I am more confused 3109  1 than the witness is, but perhaps I could ask you this,  2 Mr. Alfred.  Do you know Debenture Peak?  3 THE WITNESS:   I have heard of Debenture Peak, and it would be  4 outside my territory, so I don't know exactly where it  5 would be.  6 THE COURT:  Well, I'm told that Debenture Peak is 242, and  7 perhaps Mr. Mitchell could pronounce that name for me.  8 THE TRANSLATOR:  Haneec'etgehw.  9 THE COURT:  Not Debenture Creek, Debenture Peak.  10 THE WITNESS:   That would be part of the boundary, the corner.  11 THE COURT:  Of your territory?  12 THE WITNESS:  Yes.  13 THE COURT:  All right.  Is Cronin Peak further to the east?  14 THE WITNESS:  On Cronin there is three peaks and one right after  15 the other.  16 THE COURT:  Yes.  17 THE WITNESS:  And the furthest peak, the third peak in there,  18 somewhere where the mine is.  19 THE COURT:  And are those three peaks east of Debenture Peak?  20 THE WITNESS:  Three peaks east from Debenture Peak, and then  21 after that it turns into a mountain range.  22 THE COURT:  Well, is Two Bridge Lake close to Debenture Peak?  23 THE WITNESS:   There is another mountain peak between, west of  24 Debenture, and then you come to Two Bridge Lake.  25 THE COURT:  All right.  All right.  Well, I'm not sure about  26 some things that perhaps I shouldn't be worried about,  27 but -- you see, the map Mr. Plant gave me this morning  28 seems to put Cronin Mountain where the witness says  29 Debenture Creek is.  I merely state it so that counsel  30 know that I have a question mark in my mind about all  31 of this.  32 MR. MACAULAY:  It seems to be south of Debenture Creek, My Lord,  33 so it may be slightly east.  34 THE COURT:  Well, this map shows Cronin to be right on the  35 boundary, as described in Madeline Alfred's metes and  36 bounds.  37 MR. MACAULAY:  But they appear to be — both Debenture Creek and  38 Mount Cronin to be on or near the western frontier  39 of -- eastern frontier.  40 THE COURT:  Eastern frontier.  41 MR. MACAULAY:  One being more or less south of the other.  42 THE COURT:  Well, this particular map doesn't have —  43 MR. MACAULAY:  Debenture — has Debenture Creek.  44 THE COURT:  Which is a little farther north.  As I say, it  45 doesn't really matter.  It may all be made clear at  46 some other point.  I just don't like to leave the  47 subject with a worthy question mark in my mind.  If 1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  MR.  PLANT  9  10  THE  COURT  11  MR.  PLANT  12  13  THE  COURT  14  MR.  PLANT  15  THE  COURT  16  MR.  PLANT  17  18  19  THE  COURT  20  MR.  PLANT  21  Q  22  23  24  A  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  Q  33  34  35  A  36  37  38  39  MR.  PLANT  40  41  THE  COURT  42  MR.  PLANT  43  Q  44  A  45  46  THE  TRANS  47  MR.  PLANT  3110  counsel are not worried about that, I am not going to  lose any sleep over it.  You see, if you look at Exhibit 84, there aren't  very many peaks east of Two Bridge Lake.  You are on  the downhill -- once you get past Two Bridge Lake and  the peaks around it, you are going downhill towards  Babine Lake, and --  Two Bridge Lake is incorrectly identified on Exhibit  84, My Lord.  84.  You think it is?  Yes.  There is a lake an inch or two to the left of  the lake marked as Tedeltl'ets.  Yes.  The lake on the left is in fact Two Bridge Lake.  I see.  Well then, that might explain it.  I should say that I take that from my reading of  Exhibit 164, which has as Two Bridge Lake the first  lake at the head of Riester Creek.  :  Yes.  All right.  Let's press on.  Mr. Alfred, are you able to describe where the  boundary of Wah Tah K'eght's territory goes from the  top of Driftwood Creek?  From Driftwood Creek, where Driftwood Creek starts, it  goes over the mountain towards -- there is a mountain  peak behind Tedeltl'ets, and the second creek is  Haneec'etgehw.  It goes right over -- the boundary  goes over the -- goes over Haneec'etgehw, and from  there it follows a ridge and then towards Nee Biil  dilyee, and from Nee Biil dilyee it goes to the  headwaters of K'aaz Kwe and down towards Wed'zen Kwe.  Would it be fair to say, Mr. Alfred, that you are more  comfortable referring to the names of these mountains  by their Wet'suwet'en name than by their English name?  All my -- my grandmother and my uncle who taught me  these areas, was all done in Wet'suwet'en, so I would  be more comfortable in Wet'suwet'en, and I don't get  so easily confused then.  :   My Lord, I was going to move to the subject of  traplines.  :  Yes, go ahead.  Mr. Alfred, is there a Wet'suwet'en word for trapline?  Called it G'oh nediist'uk.  The old traditional word  is G'oh nediist'uk.  LATOR:  G'o-h, n-e-d-i-i-s-t'u-k. 3111  1 Q   Do you have a map of your registered trapline, Mr.  2 Alfred?  3 A   Yes, I have one, and I have it at home in my house.  4 Q   Have you provided a copy of it to your lawyers?  5 A   No, I didn't give them a copy.  I didn't give them the  6 one that I had anyway.  7 Q   Well, I ask for its production.  And I ask you, Mr.  8 Alfred, to provide it to your lawyers, and in turn I  9 ask for a copy from them.  To my knowledge there is no  10 such map on the plaintiffs' list of documents, but I  11 certainly stand to be corrected on that.  12 A   I guess if you're asking for it, I can give it to you.  13 Q   Well, I'm asking for it now, this document.  14 THE COURT:  Miss Mandell.  15 MS. MANDELL:  My Lord, I don't see the relevance of it.  It's  16 certainly not part of the plaintiffs' case, that the  17 trapline map is anything to do with the ownership of  18 the territory.  My friend has produced to us  19 voluminous volumes of maps and traplines and trapline  20 files and trapline maps, some of which have to do with  21 Henry Alfred's trapline as it is stored with the  22 government.  It's really a document within their  23 possession and control.  They think it's relevant,  24 they have listed it on their documents, and they can  25 do with it what they want, but I don't really see why  26 it's to us to produce it now as part of documents in  27 the possession of this witness.  I don't see its  28 relevance to our case.  29 THE COURT:  Well, do you have a copy of it, Mr. Plant?  30 MR. PLANT:  I don't know.  I have never seen the witness's map.  31 The witness has a map that purports to show the  32 boundary of his registered trapline.  At least that's  33 how I heard the witness's evidence.  The issue --  34 THE COURT:  Surely, Miss Mandell, it's a document that might be  35 relevant, is it not?  36 MS. MANDELL:  Well, My Lord —  37 THE COURT:  You asked -- well, I shouldn't say you.  It seems to  38 me that Mr. Rush examined Madeline Alfred quite  39 extensively about the registered traplines, did he  40 not?  41 MS. MANDELL:  This is — I don't really know.  I can't recall  42 exactly that portion of the evidence.  But my friend  43 has delivered to us a trapline map which appears to be  44 accompanying some form of application within Mr.  45 Alfred's trapline file.  Now, why doesn't he put that  46 map to Mr. Alfred and ask if it's the same one that he  47 has.  If it's different, then we'll go to the trouble 3112  1 of arguing or eventually producing what may be in Mr.  2 Alfred's possession, but it seems to me that this  3 is -- it's inappropriate at this time that the  4 trapline map be seen as part of our case, and that Mr.  5 Alfred should be asked to produce it.  That's our  6 opinion.  7 Now, it may be that the matter can be simply solved  8 by my friend taking documents in his possession, which  9 he's listed, which he has distributed, which he has  10 put to us to review, and have him put it to the  11 witness.  12 THE COURT:  I have no doubt that your friend intends to do that.  13 It just seems to me that trapline licenses have  14 occupied a fair amount of my time in this trial.  It  15 seems to me they may be relevant.  It seems to me that  16 in connection with the use and care of the property, a  17 trapline license may be relevant.  That's sufficient  18 to require its disclosure.  But it's not here, and we  19 can't do anything about it.  Its production has been  20 requested.  The witness has agreed that he can do so.  21 It seems to me that we ought to get on now and see  22 what Mr. Plant wants to do next.  23 I have often wondered why lawyers ask witnesses to  24 produce something, when the request should be made of  25 your learned friend, to call upon her to produce it,  26 such as you wish.  2 7 MR. PLANT:  Yes.  28 MS. MANDELL:  I just wanted to point out that on the defendant's  29 supplement list of documents, number 18, which is  30 received February 2nd, number 3116, is the Ministry of  31 Environment Smithers' office file, Henry Alfred  32 trapline number 608T019, which would appear to be what  33 he's asking for.  34 THE COURT:  Yes, but Mr. Plant is entitled to say I want to make  35 sure that what the witness has is the same as what I  36 have, and I think that that may be relevant.  I have  37 always thought that he was wrong in making production  38 as wide as that.  The rule should require people to  39 produce what is relevant.  This is a general practice  40 that goes back into last century, and I don't think I  41 will change it at this moment.  Mr. Plant, go ahead  42 please.  43 MR. PLANT:  Just so that my own sense of uncertainty about where  44 we are at at the moment is resolved.  I hear my  45 friend, Miss Mandell, objecting to production of the  46 document, and I think I hear Your Lordship, in a  47 manner of words, ruling against her on that objection, THE  MR.  1  2  3  4  5  6  7 THE  8 MS.  9 THE  10  11 MR.  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22 THE  2 3 MR.  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31 THE  32 MR.  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  4 4 MR.  45  46  4 7 MS.  3113  at least to the extent of seeing what the document  shows, and --  You haven't asked her for it yet, Mr. Plant.  I asked my friend for relevant documents an awful  long time ago.  I haven't got this one yet, and I am  asking her for it now.  Is there any problem with that, Miss Mandell?  MANDELL:  Not any that I haven't already seen or heard.  COURT:  Well, I think it should be produced as being a  document that may be relevant.  My Lord, I have a number of questions for this  witness about traplines.  I have prepared an overlay  which is -- shows the relationship between the  boundary of the Wah Tah K'eght territory, as it's  depicted on Trial Exhibit 5, and the boundaries of the  traplines that are in the -- in this general area.  I  think it would be of some assistance to Your Lordship  in following the evidence if you had a copy of this.  I don't offer it as anything more than an assistance  to Your Lordship.  I provided a copy of it to my  friends a few days ago.  Yes.  COURT  PLANT  COURT:  PLANT:  COURT  PLANT  Q  COURT  PLANT  Q  The first trapline I wish to ask you about, Mr.  Alfred, is your own trapline, and by that I mean  registered trapline.  My understanding, My Lord, is that is the trapline  that has the number 0608T019, which is below the words  Wah Tah K'eght, as they are printed across the centre  of that.  :  Yes.  Mr. Alfred, I want to show you a document from  Provincial Government files, and it's a blue piece of  paper with a white piece of paper attached to it.  Could you lift up the white paper and tell me if you  recognize your signature at the bottom of the blue  page?  Yes.  And is that the application form which you signed to  have the trapline that used to be registered to Peter  Bazil registered to you?  Yes.  I would ask that that be marked as the next  exhibit, My Lord.  And in the circumstances, I -- I  was going to say I am tendering the original.  MANDELL:  Excuse me, the witness is still --  A  Q  A  PLANT: 3114  1 MR. PLANT:  I know.  2 THE WITNESS:   23rd February, '55, 19th January, '60.  It's  3 beyond -- Peter Bazil signed -- somebody made a  4 mistake with the date and months and years.  '63 is  5 the time that Peter Bazil transferred to me.  6 MR. PLANT:  7 Q   So your evidence is that the transfer occurred in  8 1963?  9 A   '63.  10 Q   Transfer of the trapline?  11 A   '63.  12 Q   If I were to suggest to you -- well, I do suggest to  13 you, Mr. Alfred, that your -- that you signed this  14 application form originally in 1955.  Do you accept  15 that?  16 A   No.  17 Q   I'm sorry --  18 A   How could I sign documents in 1955 and 1960?  Which  19 ones are you talking about now?  20 Q   Well, do you have any recollection that perhaps the  21 first time you signed the -- an application for this  22 trapline was as long ago as 1955, if you think back?  23 A   I can distinctly remember 1963, when Peter Bazil went  24 up into the territory with me, and I never -- that was  25 the first year I trapped.  I never trapped before that  26 in that area.  That's when it was transferred over to  2 7 me.  28 Q   Do you have any recollection of whether you applied to  29 have the trapline registered in your name in or about  30 January, 1960, perhaps?  31 A   No, 1963.  I remember when it was -- when the process  32 started, when went out on the territory with him.  33 MR. PLANT:   Well, I ask that this document be marked as the  34 next exhibit, My Lord.  35 THE COURT:  Has the witness identified his signature on it?  36 MS. MANDELL:  My Lord, the witness identified his signature, but  37 then challenged the information on the face of the  38 document itself as inaccurate, and specifically he did  39 not confirm that he registered or made application for  40 a registration of trapline, which is the content of  41 the document, on the dates that either were suggested  42 to him and appear to be crossed out on the face of the  43 document, or on the date which is then appeared to be  44 retyped in over the original date, either 1955 or '60;  45 and under the circumstances, given that this is an  46 application to register and the witness is saying that  47 he didn't make application to register on the dates on 3115  1 the face of the document, I am not -- I object that  2 the document go in for proof of what it says it stands  3 for.  4 THE COURT:  Well, the evidence about the document and its  5 admissibility are two different things, I gather.  It  6 seems to me the document can go in.  He has said I  7 don't agree that I -- I agree it's my signature, but I  8 don't agree that these dates are correct.  Is there  9 any more to it than that?  10 MS. MANDELL:  Well, I don't really know, then, what it is that  11 the document is going in for the purpose of showing,  12 because if it's -- if it's an application and he says  13 that he didn't apply on the dates that are set forward  14 on the face of the document, I don't really fully  15 understand what weight or value or significance it has  16 as an exhibit.  17 THE COURT:  Well, surely a document signed by a witness can't be  18 kept out because the witness questions a fact stated  19 in the document.  His denial of the accuracy of the  20 dates is in evidence and can be the subject of  21 argument.  It may be that it doesn't prove anything  22 more than that is his signature on an application, the  23 date of which is uncertain.  24 MS. MANDELL:  Well, My Lord, the additional difficulty I have  25 with it is that although he identifies his signature,  26 his signature is found on a blue underslip, and  27 attached over to the blue underslip and glued in some  28 fashion to it is a description of a trapline.  Now, we  29 don't know when this overlay was glued on.  Was it  30 part of the paper that formed part of the original?  31 MR. PLANT:  We don't know that yet, My Lord, and it may be that  32 one or two questions from the witness might go some  33 distance in answering that problem, and it may be that  34 some questions from some other witnesses in due course  35 may answer that problem.  I was proposing to ask this  36 witness some questions about the fact that there is a  37 piece of white paper attached to the piece of blue  38 paper.  But my friend's objection is based on the  39 proposition that the dates -- this witness has some  40 difficulty accepting that he signed this document on  41 the dates that are typed on there, doesn't have  42 anything to do with the white piece of paper, because  43 that doesn't have the dates on it.  44 MS. MANDELL:  Are you proposing to put the white paper in as  45 part of the exhibit?  4 6 MR. PLANT:  Yes.  47 MS. MANDELL:  Because that hasn't been identified by the 3116  1 witness.  2 THE COURT:  Well, the document bears the signature of the  3 witness.  It has attached to it another document.  It  4 may be that as a matter of evidence the white paper  5 will or will not be found to be a part of the  6 document.  That would depend on evidence.  But it  7 wouldn't be appropriate for your friend to tear the  8 white piece off that's pasted on and tender it.  He  9 has to put the document forward as he has it.  The  10 witness has signed the document, he says it's his  11 signature.  It seems to me that's enough to make it  12 evidence, subject to further extrinsic evidence that  13 will explain or make clear whether the other paper is  14 part of it or not.  But as long as it's physically a  15 part of the document, surely it has to go in with the  16 document.  The effect of it and all the consequences  17 is not a matter that can be determined merely because  18 of the evidence as it stands at the moment, but has to  19 be determined at a later date, when all the evidence  20 is in, or there may be further evidence about this  21 document.  But I see no reason why the document should  22 not be admitted as an exhibit at the trial, for  23 whatever purpose it later may be useful -- whatever  24 its usefulness may later be.  It may be the next  25 exhibit.  26 THE REGISTRAR:  Exhibit 180, My Lord.  27 THE COURT:  Just a moment.  Miss Mandell may have some further  28 submissions.  29 MR. PLANT:  While my friend is conferring with her colleague, I  30 might just ask that if the document does end up being  31 marked, that the exhibit stamp be placed in such a way  32 as to not obscure the information.  33 THE COURT:  Yes.  34 MS. MANDELL:  The only item further, My Lord, is that you will  35 see, when the document is marked, the words on the  36 document itself -- it says:  37  38 "Application is hereby made in quadruplicate  39 for the registration of a trapline as  40 described hereunder and as shown on  41 accompanying sketch."  42  43 Now, we don't have the accompanying sketch, and nor  44 is that attached to the document, and I think that if  45 the document is going in, that the whole of the  46 document, which would include the sketch, should be  47 produced, and certainly we should have that all as 3117  1 part of the same exhibit.  We haven't seen the  2 accompanying sketch, by the way.  3 MR. PLANT:  I don't know if I have either.  I have provided the  4 document as it came to me, My Lord.  I wonder if I  5 might just have a look at the upper left-hand corner  6 for a moment, however.  7 MS. MANDELL:  I might also mention that in the copy that was  8 delivered to us by my friend, we don't have a copy of  9 the document that he now is tendering.  10 MR. PLANT:  My friend says she doesn't have a copy of the  11 document that's now being produced.  The document  12 that's now being produced was disclosed on the list --  13 delivered to the plaintiffs almost a year ago, and so  14 far as I know, the plaintiffs were given the  15 opportunity to inspect the originals, and they  16 exercised that opportunity.  If that document is --  17 THE COURT:  Well, it may turn out to be a matter of great  18 importance.  My present reaction is I think it's going  19 to be not of the greatest significance.  There may be  20 more evidence, there may not.  If the evidence is left  21 as it is, the document may not have much evidentiary  22 value.  But I think the defendant has tendered it, it  23 qualifies to be marked as an exhibit, and will be so  24 marked.  We will take the afternoon adjournment.  25 THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit 180, My Lord.  Order in court.  26  27 (EXHIBIT 180 - APPLICATION FOR REGISTRATION OF  28 TRAPLINE)  29  30 (PROCEEDINGS ADJOURNED FOR A SHORT RECESS)  31  32 I HEREBY CERTIFY THE FOREGOING TO  33 BE A TRUE AND ACCURATE TRANSCRIPT  34 OF THE PROCEEDINGS HEREIN TO THE  35 BEST OF MY SKILL AND ABILITY.  36  37  3 8 LORI OXLEY  39 OFFICIAL REPORTER  4 0 UNITED REPORTING SERVICE LTD.  41  42  43  44  45  46  47 THE  THE  MR.  THE  REGISTRAR:  3118  (PROCEEDINGS RESUMED AT 3:20)  Order in court.  Ready to proceed, my Lord.  PLANT:  COURT  PLANT  COURT:  COURT:  Mr. Plant, are you going to finish this afternoon?  PLANT:  No, my Lord.  COURT:  You're not?  If we were getting close I was going to  inquire whether counsel wanted to sit this evening, if  it would help.  But if it wouldn't do the job there's  no point exerting yourselves unnecessarily, is it?  We  have Mr. Macaulay's cross-examination as well, of  course, and I wouldn't think that more than a couple  of hours more in the evening would be advisable.  If  that won't do it I don't see much point in that  process.  Then maybe there may be some re-examination  as well, I suppose.  All I can say is this, my Lord, that I'm -- I'm  still in the position of being unable to make an  estimate of how long I am going to take.  I'm  definitely making considerable progress.  Well, think about it.  I'm prepared to sit late, but I'm concerned the  witness might be a little tired.  I certainly don't  want to --  I can't sit late in the sense that just carry on at  four o'clock, I'm committed to something else, but I  can come back this evening.  MANDELL:  My Lord, I should advise that I've canvassed again  the question of time with Mr. Alfred.  He does want to  get finished before he gets home.  He has said that  under all the circumstances, and he's made some  arrangements through his family, and he would be  prepared to stay tomorrow if he had to finish as  opposed to --  COURT:  That sounds proper, I suppose.  MANDELL:  It would be very nice if we could get through by  noon, and that would at least give him the afternoon.  COURT: Well, I'm not going to put a time limit on counsel.  That's coming in the future, but we haven't arrived at  that -- not in this trial, I mean litigation  generally, and we're not at it yet, and therefore I'm  not going to start imposing time limits, but we'll --  it sounds from what you're saying, Miss Mandell, that  if necessary Mr. Alfred can be here all day tomorrow.  MANDELL:  That's right.  COURT:  That should do it, shouldn't it?  PLANT:  I think even the morning shall be ample time for me,  4 7 my Lord.  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16 MR.  17  18  19  2 0 THE  21 MR.  22  23  24 THE  25  26  2 7 MS.  28  29  30  31  32  33  34 THE  35 MS.  36  37 THE  38  39  40  41  42  43  4 4 MS.  45 THE  4 6 MR. 1 THE  COURT  2 MR.  PLANT  3  Q  4  5  6  A  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  Q  15  16  A  17  18  19  Q  20  21  A  22  23  24  Q  25  A  26  Q  27  28  29  30  A  31  32  Q  33  34  A  35  36  Q  37  38  A  39  4 0 THE  COURT  41  42 MR.  PLANT  43  Q  44  45  46  A  47  3119  :  All right, thank you.  Mr. Alfred, did you ever discuss the boundaries of the  registered trapline with Peter Bazil, the registered  trapline that you took from him?  The discussion I had with Peter Bazil when we went up  to a point where we can see all landmarks, and he had  told me about the boundary lines around C'ede'i kwe,  Haneec'et gehw, Nee biil dilyee, K'aaz kwe, Sde kep,  Caas wennige'tet, and the side of Tsee Ggexw and Teet  eet, and boundary towards Ts'edeek'aay, and that's --  and now when I see this on a map I can identify these  places.  Have you walked -- I'm sorry, there's quite a few  place names.  Also my -- from the view point where we were at it was  like my Uncle Peter Bazil had walked me all the way  around the boundaries, around the territory.  The trapline that is registered to you is on the east  side of the Bulkley; is that correct, Mr. Alfred?  Yes.  On -- this was on the ease side of the river is  where the -- my name was on the registry there, and on  the west side Bazil was caretaker.  Bazil Michell?  Yes.  Have you looked at the map that you have at home to  see whether the boundaries of the trapline on that map  are the same as the boundaries of the territory that  you have on the east side of the Bulkley?  The map that I have is almost identical to the one I  seen.  It's not the trapline registry map.  I didn't hear the latter part.  It's almost identical  to what?  To the map that I seen earlier.  It's not the trapline  registry map.  What is the map that you're talking about when you say  the map you've seen earlier?  If you produce some -- them two maps that were  almost -- they were both different in some ways.  :  I think he's talking about Exhibit 164, but I'm not  sure.  Well, I ask that Exhibit 164 be put before the  witness.  Mr. Alfred, can you tell me, is this the map  that you meant?  The map that I have at home shows the boundaries to  C'ede'i kwe, Wed'zen kwe, and K'aaz kwe.  The map that 3120  1 I have depicts the boundaries as follows:  Wed'zen  2 kwe, K'aaz kwe and C'ede'i kwe.  3 Q   Is the map that you have at home a map that was given  4 to you by someone in the game warden's office?  5 A   I -- the map I believe was sent to me by the game  6 warden somewhere in '64, could be as late as '65.  7 THE COURT:  Well, I suppose I have to understand this, and I'm  8 not sure that I do.  Mr. Alfred, are you saying that  9 the map you have at home is almost identical to this  10 one, Exhibit 164, or are you saying it's something  11 different from this?  12 MR. PLANT:  He has said something different from that, my Lord.  13 THE COURT:  Well, that's what I thought.  14 A   The map I have at home is almost identical on the east  15 side.  16 THE COURT:  On the east side?  All right, Mr. Plant.  17 MR. PLANT:  18 Q   Mr. Alfred, I have a map here which I'm going to ask  19 you to look at.  It comes from the trapline files in  20 the game warden's office in Smithers.  Does that map  21 look like the map that you have at home of your  22 trapline, registered trapline, that is?  23 A   No.  This map is different.  24 MR. PLANT:  Is that a translation of everything that the witness  25 said?  26 THE INTERPRETER:  Before that he mentioned just thinking about  27 it, he was trying to figure it out, it looks the same.  2 8 MR. PLANT:  29 Q   Well, since you did have a chance to think about it,  30 can you tell me in what way this map is different from  31 the map you have at home, apart from the scotch tape?  32 A   The map -- in comparison with the map I have at home  33 the line on here doesn't go as far as the other one  34 did where the other one goes to Driftwood Creek, and  35 this one here, this -- where the writing Dick Naziel  36 and Company didn't show, it go into -- jog into it as  37 far as this one does, and the other map also followed  3 8 K'aaz kwe.  39 Q   And this map does not follow K'aaz kwe, correct?  40 A   Yes.  41 Q   And on the east side of this map there is a bulge, I  42 guess you could call it, for -- it has Dick Naziel and  43 Company in it, and you say this map is different from  44 your map at home in that area too?  You've told us  45 that there is a difference in that area.  I just want  46 to get you to agree that that's on the east side of  47 that territory where that difference is as it's shown 1  2  A  3  4  5  Q  6  7  A  8  Q  9  10  11  A  12  Q  13  14  A  15  16  17  Q  18  19  20  A  21  22  23  Q  24  25  26  A  27  28  29  30  Q  31  32  33  34  35  36  A  37  38  39  40  Q  41  42  43  A  44  Q  45  A  46  47  3121  on this map?  The area marked Dick Naziel is too close, or -- on  this map towards Moricetown, whereas on the other map  it should be further east.  And you also told us about Driftwood Creek, and that's  in the southern part of this map; is that correct?  That's right.  Driftwood is right here.  And is it your recollection that the map you have at  home shows the boundary of your trapline following  Driftwood Creek?  Yes.  That's -- it follows Driftwood Creek.  Thank you.  Did you ever discuss the boundaries of  your trapline with Les Cox?  No.  I never talked to no game warden about it, but I  discussed this with Bazil, Peter Bazil when he gave --  transferred the territory over to me.  Mr. Alfred, I suggest that the boundaries of your  registered trapline on the north in fact lie between  K'aaz kwe and Kwun kwe; do you accept that?  When my grandmother and my uncle told me about the  boundary being at K'aaz kwe, and that is what I know,  and I don't know anything about anything further.  I suggest to you, Mr. Alfred, that the boundary of  your registered trapline does not go as far south as  Driftwood Creek; do you accept that?  When me and my uncle travelled into Glentanna area and  he asked me, "Do you know where Driftwood Creek is",  and I said "Yes".  Well, he said "Well, that is the  boundary".  And that is what I know.  Well, let me suggest this to you, Mr. Alfred, that the  reason that your registered trapline boundary doesn't  go as far as Driftwood Creek is because the Fletcher  family, including Al Fletcher, have a registered  trapline in the Driftwood Creek Valley.  Do you accept  that?  When my uncle pointed out the boundary to me to  Driftwood Creek is what I know, but the white people,  they always give one another land, and that is why  they keep pushing north on that.  Mr. Alfred, my understanding is that Al Fletcher had a  trapline in the Driftwood Creek area as long ago as  1936.  Have you ever heard anything of that?  No.  I was only two years old at that time.  Your Uncle Peter Bazil never told you about that?  My Uncle Peter Bazil told me about it, but I always  thought it was across the creek, and now I see this on  the map here. 3122  1 Q   Your Uncle Peter Bazil did tell you about a trapline  2 that Al Fletcher had, but you thought it was across  3 the creek; is that correct?  4 A  When my uncle told me about the boundary, and I had  5 north side, and I always assumed that other trapline  6 registry was south of C'ede'i kwe.  7 Q   Did he tell you that the other trapline registry which  8 is south of C'ede'i kwe belonged to Al Fletcher?  9 A  When he told me about to watch out for this man, and I  10 assumed that he was across the creek, and I didn't  11 know of this man until recently.  12 Q   Mr. Alfred, when you have gone trapping in recent  13 years have you sold your pelts to the Hudson's Bay  14 Company?  15 A   I have never sold furs to Hudson Bay Company, I sold  16 furs to an outfit in Prince George called Ontario  17 Trappers.  18 Q   When you sell furs to the Ontario Trappers in Prince  19 George, do you keep a record of what you've sold?  20 A   I had records of some previous or earlier, but I've  21 misplaced them and they could be somewhere, but  22 recently I have given them to Victor in the office to  23 keep in a record file.  24 MR. PLANT:  Now, my Lord, I haven't seen such records in the  25 plaintiff's documents.  Again I may be mistaken, but I  26 would ask that they be produced, and I make that  27 request of my friend, Miss Mandell.  28 MS. MANDELL:  I don't know if they've been been produced.  I'll  29 make a request.  3 0 THE COURT:  Thank you.  31 MR. PLANT:  32 Q   Mr. Alfred, do you know who has the registered  33 trapline north of your trapline?  34 A   North of K'aaz kwe is Caspit's territory, and I don't  35 know or I'm not aware of any of their activities.  36 Q   Do you know if Sylvester William had a registered  37 trapline north of K'aaz kwe?  38 A   Sylvester William held that territory for his  39 grandfather's territory, but while he was still alive  40 he transferred it back to the proper ownership, who  41 was Caspit.  42 MR. PLANT:  Do you know how it was that Sylvester William came  43 to have the trapline?  44 MS. MANDELL:  My Lord, I don't think that the witness and Mr.  45 Plant are speaking of the same thing anymore.  Mr.  46 Plant asked whether or not Sylvester William had the  47 registered trapline north, and the answer was that he 1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8 THE  9 MR.  10 THE  11 MR.  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  COURT  PLANT  COURT  PLANT  Q  A  MR. PLANT  3123  held his grandfather's territory, and I'm not sure  that we're talking -- and then we just heard a  description of how that territory was transferred back  to Caspit again, and I'm not certain that we're  talking -- when Mr. Plant says trapline registered and  the witness is answering the territory, that we're  talking at all about the same thing.  All right, that may be.  I would be happy to try to clarify, my Lord.  Thank you.  Put my friend at ease, or at least see if we can.  Did  Sylvester William have the right to trap north of  K'aaz kwe for many years?  Yes.  Sylvester William I believe would have been  Neg'edeld'es in that area, and he was taking care of  the area I think for his father clan, but soon as  Stanley Morris became Caspit he returned that area  back to the proper people, who was Caspit, when  Stanley became Caspit.  Do you have the name?  22 THE  2 3 MR.  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39 THE  4 0 MR.  41 THE  42  4 3 MR.  44 THE  45  4 6 THE  47  TRANSLATOR:  PLANT:  Neg'edeld'es is 192.  Q   And the area you're talking about, Mr. Alfred, is the  area north of K'aaz kwe?  A   Yes.  Q   Do you know how it was that Sylvester William came to  have the right to use that area?  A   I think his grandfather, Sylvester William's  grandfather was Caspit, and when he passed on  Sylvester was caretaking until such a time as until  when Stanley Morris took the name Caspit, and then he  returned that area back to Stanley Morris.  Q   Do you know how long ago it was that Sylvester  William's grandfather died?  A   I don't know.  Q   Do you know if it happened in your lifetime?  A   I don't know that either.  COURT:  Excuse me.  How is Caspit spelled, C or K.  PLANT:  C-a-s-p-i-t.  COURT:  Thank you.  Is this a convenient time to adjourn,  Mr. Plant?  PLANT:  Yes, my Lord.  COURT:  Just a moment, please.  All right, we'll adjourn  then until ten o'clock tomorrow morning.  REGISTRAR:  Order in court. 3124  1 (PROCEEDINGS ADJOURNED)  2  3 I hereby certify the foregoing to be  4 a true and accurate transcript of the  5 proceedings herein transcribed to the  6 best of my skill and ability  7  8  9  10    11 Graham D. Parker  12 Official Reporter  13 United Reporting Service Ltd.  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47


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