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Delgamuukw Trial Transcripts

[Proceedings of the Supreme Court of British Columbia 1988-01-21] British Columbia. Supreme Court Jan 21, 1988

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 2876  1 Vancouver, B.C.  2 21 January 1988  3  4 THE REGISTRAR:  Order in court.  In the Supreme Court of British  5 Columbia; Thursday, the 21st day of January, 1988.  6 Delgamuukw, courtroom 53.  Calling Delgamuukw  7 against Her Majesty the Queen.  8 MR. PLANT:  Your lordship will recall some discussion yesterday  9 concerning three documents that my friend objected  10 to.  I have given some consideration to this matter  11 overnight.  There are a number of facts in relation  12 to how these particular documents got into the files  13 in which -- in which may have a bearing on their  14 admissibilities and I haven't been able to identify  15 those facts as yet.  I am also hoping that the  16 matter of admissibilities of document — of these  17 documents might also be dealt with at a time when  18 some of the documents which were tendered during Mr.  19 Joseph's cross-examination might also be the subject  20 of argument and I hope that I could ask your  21 lordship for further adjournment.  Won't require any  22 more evidence from Mrs. Alfred.  23 THE COURT:  All right.  Well, I think you and your friend should  24 have a discussion.  When do you think it would be  25 convenient to have that argument, and I will hear  26 you then?  27 MR. PLANT:  My -- as far as I am concerned, sometime in the  28 latter half of the first week back after the break  29 would be convenient, but I am quite happy to meet at  30 my friend's convenience in that regard.  31 THE COURT:  I will be glad to hear you gentlemen on that point  32 or others whenever you think it would be convenient  33 and mutually convenient for you to have that  34 argument.  35 MR. RUSH:  I would only add to what Mr. Plant says that we are  36 proceeding with the cross-examination of one of the  37 affiants on the trapline map that was filed by the  38 provincial defendant and we have proposed a date  39 next week that that proceed.  The question of the  40 issue of the admissibilities of some of these  41 documents will depend I think on the outcome of that  42 cross-examination, and so I think the time lines are  43 convenient.  It may be that we'll have finished by  44 that time.  45 THE COURT:  All right.  Thank you.  46 MR. PLANT:  I am advised that there is some problem in  47 proceeding with that cross-examination next week. 2879  1  2  3  4  5  6  7  THE  COURT  8  MR.  PLANT  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  THE  COURT  17  MR.  PLANT  18  THE  COURT  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  MR.  PLANT  26  27  28  29  30  THE  COURT  31  32  33  MR.  PLANT  34  35  36  37  38  THE  COURT  39  40  41  42  MR.  PLANT  43  THE  COURT  44  MR.  PLANT  45  46  THE  COURT  47  MR.  PLANT  Mr. Goldie will be in correspondence or contact with  Mr. Rush's associate on that.  If Mr. Rush -- my  friend, Mr. Rush, wants to defer any further  consideration in this court of these documents until  after that person has been examined, I am quite  happy to do that.  All right.  In the meantime, however, I would tender the three  documents as exhibits for identification and would  say, my lord, that the witness' inability to  identify them may be a fact in issue as much as her  ability to identify them and for that reason I  submitted that it would be appropriate to mark them  as exhibits for identification purposes at this  time.  I don't see any need for that, Mr. Plant.  Well, that's fine then.  We will --  I think they are not in the same category as the one  I reserved a number for yesterday because that  document had been read into the -- not into evidence  but at least into the transcript and these documents  are not in that category so I think it can be  tendered at the time we decide if such is the case  that they should be admitted.  Well, my lord, my concern is that there be some way  of tying whatever act eventually happens to these  documents to the evidence that the witness gave  yesterday and one convenient way of doing that is to  mark them in some way or another.  Oh, I think in today's computer age and with our  marvellous minds we can make that relation when the  time comes.  I am more concerned about my friend's position when  I produce the documents he may well take the  position that they are not the same documents and,  if that's not a problem for my friend, then I am  quite content to leave the matter there.  As in all these matters, I always accept whatever  counsel tell me and if you tell me you are tendering  the same documents you tendered at this time, I will  believe you.  Very good, my lord.  In the absence of any convincing evidence contrary.  The next matter I wish to ask your lordship to refer  to the map marked Exhibit 84.  Yes.  I have to see if I can find my copy of that map.  If 2880  1  2  3  4  5  THE  COURT  6  MR.  PLANT  7  8  9  THE  COURT  10  11  MR.  PLANT  12  THE  COURT  13  MR.  PLANT  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  THE  COURT  21  MR.  PLANT  22  23  THE  COURT  24  MR.  PLANT  25  26  27  THE  COURT  28  MR.  PLANT  29  30  THE  COURT  31  MR.  PLANT  32  33  34  THE  COURT  35  MR.  PLANT  36  37  THE  COURT  38  39  40  41  42  MR.  RUSH:  43  MR.  PLANT  44  45  46  47  your lordship looks in the upper right-hand corner  of the territory or the area circumscribed by the  heavy black line.  If your lordship has the creek  marked H-g-a-z-k-w-u-h?  Yes.  That location of that creek on this map corresponds  to a location of what is described as Blunt Creek on  government maps.  Thank you.  I think the witness said she didn't  recognize --  That's my understanding of her evidence, yes.  Thank you.  I should also say that my understanding is that the  Wet'suwet'en name for Blunt Creek is spelled  X-a-a-z-k-w-e or that is at least one spelling.  That was a spelling which I put to the witness a  couple of days ago and she was unable to recognize  that word also.  Does your lordship have the  location of Kitsegukla Lake?  Yes.  To the right of Kitsegukla Lake is the heavy black  line which marks the boundary.  Yes.  Just to the right of that in the area of Kitsegukla  Lake in the upper left-hand corner of what is marked  on this map as L3392.  Yes.  Does your lordship see a small circle that might  pass for a lake?  Yes.  That, according to my understanding of government  maps, is described on government maps as Taltzen,  T-a-1-t-z-e-n Lake.  T-a-l-t —  T-a-1-t-z-e-n, and I did refer to that yesterday  also.  Did counsel tell me, do I have it right that this  large mountain that is just outside the  south-west -- it is -- the peaks are just outside  the south-west area of the claimed territory would  be Hudson's Bay Mountain?  Yes, that's Hudson's Bay Mountain.  My understanding of the witness' -- well, my  understanding of this is that in the south-west  corner near where these words on this map are  N-d-z-a-d-d-e-h-k-'-i-z, that's what I would call  the south or south-west corner of the map. 1  THE  COURT  2  MR.  PLANT  3  THE  COURT  4  5  MR.  PLANT:  6  7  8  THE  COURT  9  MR.  PLANT  10  THE  COURT  11  12  MR.  PLANT  13  THE  COURT  14  MR.  PLANT  15  16  THE  COURT  17  MR.  PLANT  18  THE  COURT  19  MR.  PLANT  20  THE  COURT  21  22  MR.  PLANT:  23  MR.  RUSH:  ]  24  THE  COURT:  25  26  CROSS-EXAMI  27  Q  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  A  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  MR.  PLANT:  44  45  THE  SPELLER  46  THE  COURT:  47  MR.  PLANT  Yes.  That's the general vicinity of Hudson Bay Mountain.  And would counsel tell me, would McDonell or  McDonell Lake be off this lake?  No.  McDonell Lake is, on the map, a lower left-hand  corner is a long thin body of water.  The district  lots L5108 and L5107 are above that body of water.  What was it again?  The Guuxan is here.  I beg your pardon?  The word Guuxan would appear twice.  Where do you  say is that word?  Is that word Guuxan written in --  It is printed.  I am sorry, yes.  Does your lordship see the word  Wah tah kwets right at the bottom?  Yes.  Right below that is a body of lake.  It is McDonell?  M-c-D-o-n-e-1-1, McDonell.  Some would say McDonell.  How is it called in the  area?  McDonell Lake.  Most people in the lake call it McDonell.  Yes, all right.  Thank you.  EXAMINATION CONTINUED BY MR. PLANT:  Could I have Exhibit 130 put before Mrs. Alfred,  that's the photograph in the Madeline Alfred  document book which my friend provided and it is at  tab 12 of that book?  Mrs. Alfred, when we looked at this photograph  earlier you identified for us the location of  McKenzie's house.  I wanted to ask you if you knew  whether or not McKenzie as you call him was also  known as John McKenzie?  It is -- that could very -- that could be his name.  I have always known him as McKenzie, the mother of  K'a tes nat -- or the father of K'a tes nat, I  should say.  That would have been her father.  I was  pretty young at that time and we used to come into  Hagwilget and we stayed at Old Dennis' house and  that's how I knew some of these places.  May I have the spelling of the last word that the  witness --  K'a tes nat, K-'-a-t-e-s-n-a-t.  Thank you. 1  Q  2  3  A  4  Q  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  A  12  Q  13  A  14  Q  15  16  17  18  A  19  Q  20  21  22  23  24  A  25  26  27  MR.  PLANT:  28  29  30  MR.  RUSH:  31  MR.  PLANT:  32  33  THE  COURT:  34  35  THE  WITNESS  36  37  MR.  PLANT:  38  Q  39  A  40  Q  41  A  42  Q  43  44  A  45  Q  46  A  47  Do you know whether or not McKenzie ever pre-empted  land on the Bulkley River?  No, I don't know about it.  I now ask that Exhibit 120(a), which is the  affidavit of Mrs. Alfred which was at tab 2 I  believe of the Madeline Alfred document book, be  placed in front of the witness.  Mrs. Alfred, this  is the affidavit which you gave evidence about when  Mr. Rush was asking you questions several days ago.  Do you remember that?  Yes.  Can you tell me how the affidavit was prepared?  How can I read it when I can't read?  Do you recall having any discussions with anyone  giving them information about the boundaries of the  territory of Wah tah k'eght which was later read to  you in this affidavit by Mr. Holland?  Yes.  Do you remember -- well, let me ask you this:  Did  you have any discussions with anyone other than the  lawyers and Mr. Holland about the territories that  were later described to you -- described in this  affidavit as it was read to you by Mr. Holland?  I know the information myself that was put on this  paper with the three people that were there to help  me prepare it.  Well, who were those three people, and I don't want  you to tell me if they were -- I mean, were any of  those three people not lawyers -- not your lawyers?  Well, I don't mind her telling you that I was there.  Then fine.  I'd like to know who the three people  were?  I am sure she wouldn't be reluctant to brag about  that, Mr. Rush.  :  The translator and a lawyer and I forget the name  of the person that was doing the maps.  Is that Marvin George?  Yes.  Did you tell him some of the place names?  Yes.  And the affidavit -- that document was presented to  you and read to you by Mr. Holland?  Yes.  And was Marvin George there when that happened?  I gave them all the information that I knew on the  territory first and then -- and then it was 1 translated to me, and -- and then there was another  2 lady, I forget her name, that came with the  3 translator and then I put my X on there.  4 Q    Was that other lady a lawyer?  5 A    I forget who it was.  It could have been the  6 bookkeeper for all I knew, and I forget the name.  7 Q    Do you remember if your lawyer was there when you  8 put the X on the affidavit?  9 A    Yes.  10 Q    She was there or there was a lawyer there?  11 A    Yes.  12 MR. PLANT:  On page 5 of the affidavit under the heading Areas,  13 there is a place six names down which I will provide  14 to Mr. Mitchell and ask him to assist in the  15 pronunciation.  Begins with T-s-e-e-g-g-e-z.  16 THE SPELLER:  Tsee k'eziit'ai.  17 MR. PLANT:  18 Q    Mrs. Alfred, is that a place in the territory of Wah  19 tah k'eght?  20 A    I have -- I have finished telling you yesterday that  21 boundary goes through that area there.  There is a  22 creek coming down from between two mountains.  That  23 is -- that is the boundary.  You keep asking me  24 that.  I already told you that yesterday.  25 Q    So the area -- the Tsee k'eziit'ai, that's a  26 boundary, is it?  27 A    Yes.  The creek coming down from Tsee k'eziit'ai and  28 Yen 1 al eed iint'aay.  That's all the boundary  29 lines.  30 THE SPELLER:  395, Yen 1 al eed iint'aay.  31 MR. PLANT:  395 was the first or second word?  32 THE SPELLER:  Second word.  33 THE COURT:  Is that Tsee k'ez iit'ai, 395?  34 THE SPELLER:  No, Yen 1 al eed iint'aay.  35 MR. PLANT:  Page 4 of the affidavit, Mrs. Alfred.  There is a  36 place under the heading of Mountain Peaks, six names  37 down which appears to be -- well, it is spelled  38 T-s-e-e-y-e-s-K-'-e-s.  39 THE SPELLER:  Tseeyes K'es.  4 0 MR. PLANT:  41 Q    Have you heard of that place, Mrs. Alfred?  42 A    I don't know.  I can't recall that name at all.  43 MR. RUSH:  Well, my lord, I think there were two aspects to my  44 friend's questions and I think the whole thing  45 should be put to the witness, and it was broken up  46 by a reference to the spelling and I think that the  47 question was a reference to something on the 2884  THE COURT:  1 affidavit, the spelling by Mr. Plant, and then the  2 saying of the word to Mr. Holland.  And I think the  3 whole of that should be translated and I didn't have  4 the sense that it was.  5 THE COURT:  All right.  6 MR. PLANT:  I agree that what I said should have been  7 translated.  Well, I think it is appropriate to direct the  attention of the witness to the word and then the  question should be put so that she can relate one to  the other.  Could you do that, please, Mr. Plant?  PLANT:  Yes. Mrs. Alfred, I am referring to a place which is  on your affidavit and it is under the heading  Mountain Peaks and it is a word that I can't  pronounce, Tseeyes K'es, which I am going to ask Mr.  Mitchell to pronounce.  RUSH:  Can we pause there and have that translated, please?  WITNESS:  I just couldn't recall that mountain.  I heard the  name mentioned but I just couldn't remember it at  the moment.  PLANT:  Do you know if there is a little creek that comes  out of the mountains into Toboggan Creek?  RUSH:  Is this on another area?  Is this related to the  same --  PLANT:  Yes.  It may come as a surprise to my friend but I  am actually going to try to see if I can get the  witness to admit that she knows where this place is  and on the affidavit, so if there is some indication  of what this last question of mine meant.  Beside  the word Tseeyes K'es appear the words Mountain at  the head of Elliott Creek, and my reading of  government maps, Elliott Creek is a creek that flows  out of the general area of the Hudson Bay range into  Toboggan Creek just downstream from Evelyn or, to  put in another way, a half an inch or so north of  Toboggan Lake.  COURT:  Well, what is your question?  PLANT:  My -- I was going to see if I could assist the  witness in recalling the location of this peak by  directing her to the head of Elliott Creek to see if  there is a mountain at the head of Elliott Creek  which she knows about and whether she knows the name  of it, but it is a time-consuming process  unfortunately since Elliott Creek -- we don't have a  Wet'suwet'en name for Elliott Creek, we will have --  don't have a map that has Elliott Creek, don't have  an indication of the location of the map of the  9  10  11  12 MR.  13  14  15  16  17 MR.  18 THE  19  20  21 MR.  22  2 3 MR.  24  2 5 MR.  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  THE  MR. 1  2  3  4  5  THE  COURT:  6  MR.  PLANT:  7  THE  COURT:  8  9  10  11  MR.  PLANT:  12  13  THE  COURT:  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  MR.  PLANT:  21  Q  22  23  24  25  26  27  A  28  29  30  31  MR.  PLANT:  32  THE  SPELLER  33  34  MR.  PLANT:  35  Q  36  37  38  39  A  40  Q  41  A  42  Q  43  A  44  Q  45  A  46  Q  47  A  mountain other than that given in the affidavit, and  the witness at this point can't recall the name of  that mountain.  And I am sorrily tempted to just  leave it at that and I am going to actually.  She hasn't been asked anything about it yet.  No, other than does she know where it is.  Yes.  She says at that moment she did not recognize  it but I think there is something in what Mr. Rush  says, she hasn't been given a fair chance to say  whether she recognizes it or not.  Yes, and I am struggling to find a way to give her  that fair chance.  Well, I think if you ask her again, she's had the  reference that you made a moment ago translated to  her.  It is up to you, and your friend may want to  re-exam her on it if you don't.  Maybe put it to her  again and she may now recall where Tseeyes K'es --  where it is; she may recognize it.  It is up to you  as to whether you want to take that chance.  I will try again.  Mrs. Alfred, I understand that  the place called Tseeyes K'es is a mountain which is  one of the mountains west of Toboggan Lake up on  the -- in the general area of Hudson Bay mountain  now.  Does that assist you in trying to place it in  your mind?  I am not familiar with that name but I know the line  goes up where I described to you earlier.  It goes  to Tsee K'ez iit'ai and then it goes north from  there on a mountain ridge that is the boundary.  Mr. Mitchell, I didn't -- was there a number for --  :  No, there isn't.  Tsee K'ez iit'ai, do you want  the spelling again?  No.  I think I have the spelling for that, thank  you.  Mrs. Alfred, do you know who Johnny Mack was or  is?  Yes.  Is he still alive?  Yes, he is still alive.  He is in the hospital also.  Is he an old man?  Yes.  Is he a chief in the Laksamshu, that's 133, clan?  Yes.  And what is his chief's name?  I know the name but I forgot it at the moment. 1  2  Q  3  4  5  A  6  Q  7  8  9  A  10  11  12  MR.  PLANT  13  14  15  THE  COURT  16  MR.  PLANT  17  THE  COURT  18  MR.  PLANT  19  20  21  22  THE  COURT  23  MR.  PLANT  24  25  THE  COURT  26  MR.  PLANT  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  THE  COURT  42  MR.  PLANT  43  THE  COURT  44  MR.  PLANT  45  46  THE  COURT  47  MR.  PLANT  Don't you have it written down?  Yes, and the reason I asked you was so I could avoid  having trying to pronounce it.  Is it Kloum Khun,  which is 271?  Yes, that's -- I remember now.  Have you ever heard anyone suggest that Kloum Khun  had any territory in the mountains west of Toboggan  Lake?  No.  I don't know anything about somebody else's  territory.  All I know is my own -- our own  territory.  I think I better ask to have Exhibit 102, which is  one of the maps showing the internal boundaries,  produced?  Is that the map attached to the Statement of Claim?  I beg your pardon?  Is that the map attached to the Statement of Claim?  No, my lord.  It is a map that was produced during  Mr. Goldie's cross-examination of Alfred Joseph.  And I might ask that Exhibit 102 be handed up to his  lordship.  I am sorry.  Well, I meant his lordship.  Thank you.  My lord, you see where Moricetown is located on this  map?  Yes.  And well, slightly to what would be roughly speaking  south-east of Moricetown, there is the sequence 7H44  which, as I read the coding on the right-hand side  of the map, means the clan Laksilyu, the village,  either it is K'ayah Wig'et K-'-a-y-a-h-W-i-g-e-t,  and 44 is, the code on this map, is Wah tah Kwets -  K'hayla'h, K-'-h-a-y-1-a-'-h.  Be that as it may,  the area circumscribed by 7H44 speaking in the very  broadest of terms is approximately the territory  which is encompassed by the map of the territory at  Wah tah k'eght in Exhibit 84.  My question to Mrs. Alfred arises out of an area  which is further south and on the other side of the  Bulkley which is a circle that has 8H48 in it.  Does  your lordship have that?  48?  8H48.  On the other side of the book?  Yes, and it is only an inch or so below 7H44, just  an inch or so to the left.  48.  You see Moricetown, my lord, again? 1  THE  COURT  2  MR.  PLANT  3  4  THE  COURT  5  MR.  PLANT  6  THE  COURT  7  MR.  PLANT  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  MR.  RUSH:  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  THE  COURT  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  MR.  RUSH:  43  THE  COURT  44  MR.  RUSH:  45  THE  COURT  46  47  MR.  RUSH:  Yes.  And slightly an inch or two below and an inch to the  right, 7L44?  Yes.  Does your lordship also have 8L48?  Yes.  Now, as I read the code, the author of this map is  suggesting that there is an area in that area that  is attributable to 8H48, the clan is Laksamshu and  48, the chief is Kloum Khun.  And so the reason for  my question to Mrs. Alfred is to see if she is  familiar with whether or not there is any area in  the -- any place in the general area west of  Toboggan Lake that she -- to her knowledge is  claimed by Kloum Khun.  Now, within the boundaries  of that little area circumscribed by H848, the  mapmaker has put three --  My lord, this is all very interesting.  I am sure we  will hear about it at sometime in the future but I  really fail to see how this explanation by my  learned friend is going to assist.  No doubt he will  make an argument sometime in the future that there  is -- that the mapmaker here put one thing down on  it, on his map, and the witness said something else.  My friend knows full well about having heard about  this map in detail from Mr. Neil Sterritt on  discovery that this is a draft map; that it was --  how it was prepared and so on and so forth.  My  friend can make all sorts of arguments that he wants  to make and we are hearing some now, but I don't  really see that hearing it now is aiding you in  terms of this evidence or any evidence.  I am in the same position as I am with most of the  evidence, is that I often wonder if the evidence  both in chief and in cross-examination has any  relevance at all, but I have to rely on counsel to  deal only with matters that will be helpful.  The  witness has said that she's not aware of any  territory attributed to this Johnny Mack but I can't  stop your friend from pursuing the matter with the  witness.  But he didn't do that.  He pursued it with you.  He is explaining to me what he is doing.  But why do we need to hear that?  I don't know why I have to hear a lot of this stuff,  Mr. Rush.  Well, my lord, I had no objection to the question 1  2  THE  COURT:  3  MR.  RUSH:  4  5  6  7  MR.  PLANT:  8  9  THE  COURT:  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  MR.  RUSH:  18  19  20  21  22  THE  COURT:  23  24  25  MR.  PLANT:  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  THE  SPELLER  34  MR.  PLANT:  35  THE  SPELLER  36  MR.  PLANT:  37  THE  SPELLER  38  THE  COURT:  39  MR.  PLANT:  40  41  THE  COURT:  42  43  MR.  PLANT:  44  THE  SPELLER  45  MR.  PLANT:  46  47  THE  COURT:  which I thought was -- could be a relevant question.  Yes.  But my point is we can hear exhaustive explanations  for why my friend does this or that, but surely it  is the questions that he puts to the witness  that's —  And indeed I am just about to put a question to the  witness that arises directly from this map.  I am sure he was.  I think that Mr. Plant wisely  assumed that I wouldn't follow him if he didn't make  the explanation to me that he's made.  I am grateful  for the explanation and am assisted by it.  It will  mean nothing if no further question is put to the  witness but, in cross-examination, Mr. Plant is not  precluded by the answer and pursuing it further and  he is entitled to do that.  That's not the realm of my -- my concern is that it  took five minutes for Mr. Plant to explain the  reason why he is putting the question instead of  putting the question.  It is the question that we  are interested in.  Yes.  I think Mr. Plant was trying to assist me to  follow his questions.  I took that to be what was  happening.  Go ahead, Mr. Plant.  Very good, my lord.  The words I want to now -- the  next question I want to ask Mrs. Alfred arises out  of the words which I read in this little area 8H48,  and the words are G-h-a-y-h-u-s x-h-u-s and that's  the word.  Now, I have -- I don't know what language  if any those words are in but I -- could you, Mr.  Mitchell, assist in attempting to pronounce those  words?  G-h-a-y-h-u-s --  G-h-a-y-h-u-s x-h-u-s actually.  Ghayhus xhus.  I don't know.  Those words don't make any sense to you?  No.  I am sorry, your question was to Mr. Mitchell?  Yes, I am sorry.  The record should be clear on  that.  Yes.  And Mr. Mitchell says -- agreed with you that  those words are not recognizable by him.  Is that correct?  Yes.  Those are all the questions I have on that map, my  lord.  This was Exhibit 102? 1  THE  REGISTR  2  THE  COURT:  3  MR.  PLANT:  4  5  6  7  THE  COURT:  8  MR.  PLANT:  9  Q  10  A  11  12  Q  13  14  A  15  16  Q  17  18  19  A  20  21  22  23  MR.  PLANT:  24  THE  SPELLER  25  MR.  PLANT:  26  27  THE  COURT:  28  29  MR.  PLANT:  30  31  THE  COURT:  32  MR.  PLANT:  33  Q  34  35  36  A  37  MR.  PLANT:  38  THE  REGISTR  39  THE  COURT:  40  41  42  43  THE  COURT:  44  MR.  PLANT:  45  THE  COURT:  46  THE  WITNESS  \.R:  Yes, my lord.  Thank you.  I would ask you, Mrs. Alfred, now to look again at  the photographs in the book of photographs that I  have provided at tab 8 of that book.  You recognize  what's in that photograph, Mrs. Alfred?  I am sorry, the number?  It is a picture of a  in the  Exhibit 147.  the hall  47  It is tab 8, my lord.  That's a picture of a hall,  hall up Driftwood Creek.  My instructions are this is a picture of a hall at  Evelyn.  Does that assist you?  Yes, that is Evelyn Hall.  The one across is  identical to that one there also.  When you say the one across there, are you referring  to the hall at -- this is in the last — on the last  photograph in this book?  Yes.  That's the one that's situated across the  river and the creek coming down on the left-hand  side of that hall is a boundary.  That's  C'enuu'ikwe.  Can we have the spelling of Cenuu'ikwe?  :  Cenuu'ikwe, C-'-e-n-u-u-'-i-k-w-e.  And for the record, my lord, the photograph  last tab of the book of photographs is  Are we now dealing with a creek beside  shown in tab 31?  I believe the witness was referring to a creek  beside the hall shown at tab 31.  Yes, all right.  Going back to tab 8, Mrs. Alfred, do you know  whether this building is within the territory of Wah  tah k'eght?  Yes.  That's within that territory.  May that be marked as the next exhibit, my lord?  \R:      Exhibit 156.  Yes.  Thank you.  (EXHIBIT 156 - PHOTOGRAPH)  Can somebody tell me where Evelyn is?  It is very close to the north end of Toboggan Lake.  Thank you.  :  This is within our -- our territory, the one  that's over -- the Glentanna area is outside our 2890  1 territory.  2 MR. PLANT:  3 Q    That's the photograph at tab 31, Mrs. Alfred,  4 Exhibit 147, this building here.  That's the one  5 that's outside the territory?  6 A    Yes.  This one here is outside our boundary.  That  7 creek that comes down on the left little ways from  8 the hall is the boundary that comes down from the  9 lake.  10 Q    Thank you.  Could you turn to tab 10 of the book,  11 Mrs. Alfred?  Do you recognize that as a building on  12 the territory of Wah tah k'eght?  13 A    Yes.  That's a house by the tracks at Evelyn.  14 Q    And is that the house of a white farmer or rancher?  15 A    Yes.  16 Q    May this be —  17 A    You should see the place down there.  It is all  18 white farmers throughout the territory.  19 MR. PLANT:  Thank you.  May this be the next exhibit, my lord?  2 0 THE COURT:  Yes.  21 THE REGISTRAR:  Exhibit 157.  22  23 (EXHIBIT 157 - PHOTOGRAPH)  24  2 5 MR. PLANT:  26 Q    Mrs. Alfred, I am going to show you the photograph  27 at tab 13 of the book.  My instructions are that  28 this is a picture of a building which the telephone  29 company has which is quite near Moricetown.  Do you  30 recognize that?  31 A    It is on top of the hill on Tag'il tzil yiih.  32 THE SPELLER:  496.  33 MR. PLANT:  34 Q    And that's the place that we have referred to as Cow  35 Hill?  36 A    Yes.  That's on top of the hill there.  37 Q    And that's within the territory of Wah tah k'eght.  38 That place is within the territory of Wah tah  39 k'eght?  40 A    Yes.  41 MR. PLANT:  May this be the next exhibit, my lord?  42 THE COURT:  Yes.  43 THE REGISTRAR:  Exhibit 158.  44  45 (EXHIBIT 158 - PHOTOGRAPH)  46  4 7 MR. PLANT: 2891  1 Q    The next photograph I'd like you to look at, Mrs.  2 Alfred, is at tab 14.  Do you recognize that  3 building?  4 A    Yes, I recognize that.  That's the Moricetown Fire  5 Hall.  6 MR. PLANT:  May that be the next exhibit, my lord?  7 THE COURT:  Yes.  8 THE REGISTRAR:  Exhibit 159.  9  10 (EXHIBIT 159 - PHOTOGRAPH)  11  12 THE WITNESS:  That's the Indian's own fire hall.  13 MR. PLANT:  14 Q    That's the fire hall on the Moricetown Indian  15 Reserve?  16 A    Yes, that's their own.  17 Q    If you could turn the page to tab 15, Mrs. Alfred?  18 Do you recognize that photograph or what that  19 photograph shows?  20 A    That's a store in Moricetown.  21 Q    Is that located on or off the reserve?  22 A    It should be out of the reserve, I think.  23 Q    It is north of the village; is that correct?  24 A    Yes.  25 Q    Is that store operated by Wet'suwet'en people?  2 6        A    White man.  27 MR. PLANT:  May that be the next exhibit, my lord?  2 8 THE COURT:  Yes.  29 THE REGISTRAR:  Exhibit 160.  30  31 (EXHIBIT 160 - PHOTOGRAPH)  32  33 MR. PLANT:  34 Q    Now, I'd like you to turn to tab 20, Mrs. Alfred.  35 My instructions are that that's a picture of the  36 B.C. Hydro power line crossing the highway some  37 miles north of Moricetown.  Do you recognize that?  38 A    Yes.  I recognize that picture.  39 Q    Do you know where that is?  40 A    It is not too far away from Moricetown.  It looks  41 like behind the village called Hoi t'sek'ii k'un'.  42 Q    My instructions are that this photograph was taken  43 six or seven miles north of the village.  Do you  44 recognize that?  45 A    That picture is not very clear.  46 Q    I am sorry for that.  47 A    It could be towards Beament. 2892  1 Q    Towards Beament?  2 A    It could be around there.  3 Q    There are B.C. Hydro power lines that cross the  4 territory of Wah tah k'eght near Moricetown; is that  5 correct?  6 A    Yes.  7 MR. PLANT:  Were those power lines built with the permission of  8 Wah tah k'eght to your knowledge?  9 MR. RUSH:  Excuse me.  You don't mean the ones here in this  10 photo, you mean generally were power lines --  11 MR. PLANT:  12 Q    That's correct.  Would you make that clear, Mr.  13 Holland?  I am asking about power lines generally on  14 her territory?  15 A    No, but the power is in general use in the whole  16 area so nobody was really questioning it.  17 Q    Is electric power used by the people who live on the  18 reserve in Moricetown; is that correct?  19 A    Yes.  20 MR. PLANT:  I'd ask that the photograph at tab 20 be marked as  21 the next exhibit, my lord?  22 THE COURT:  Yes, 161.  23 THE REGISTRAR:  Exhibit 161.  24  25 (EXHIBIT 161 - PHOTOGRAPH)  26  27 THE WITNESS:  You ask questions, maybe you're going to pay our  28 Hydro bills?  29 THE SPELLER:  Do you want the spelling for the Hoi t's ek'ii  30 k'un'?  31 MR. PLANT:  Yes, please.  32 MR. RUSH:  Yes.  33 THE COURT:  What is this?  34 THE SPELLER:  Hoi t's ek'ii k'un'?  35 MR. RUSH:  A Wet'suwet'en word used by —  36 THE SPELLER:  It is on the picture.  H-o-1 underline  t-'s-'-e-k-'-i-i-k-'-u-n-'.  You used a word a minute ago, Mrs. Alfred, Hoi t's  ek'ii k'un'.  My pronunciation is probably not  getting any better.  Is that a place near  Moricetown?  It's -- it's a -- would be west of -- behind  Moricetown across the tracks.  And what is it?  Is it a meadow, a hill, a lake?  It is -- there is a hill on there.  That's called  Hoi t's ek'ii k'un'.  37  3 8 MR.  PLANT  39  Q  40  41  42  43  A  44  45  Q  46  A  47 2893  1 Q    If we could go back to tab 18 in the book of  2 photographs, Mrs. Alfred.  Mrs. Alfred, there is a  3 sawmill off the highway north of Moricetown.  Do you  4 know that to be the case?  5 A    Yes, that would be -- there is one there.  6 Q    And is the photograph at tab 18 a photograph of that  7 sawmill?  8 A    Yes.  9 MR. PLANT:  May that be the next exhibit, my lord?  10 THE COURT:  Yes.  11 THE REGISTRAR:  162.  12  13 (EXHIBIT 162 - PHOTOGRAPH)  14  15 THE INTERPRETER:  I was just asking her if she is tired.  Taking  16 her a long time.  17 MR. PLANT:  I am quite close to finishing but maybe it would be  18 appropriate to take the morning adjournment now.  19 THE COURT:  Yes, it is.  20 THE REGISTRAR:  Order in court.  Court is adjourned briefly.  21  22 (MORNING ADJOURNMENT AT 11:13 A.M.)  23  24 I hereby certify the foregoing to  25 be a true and accurate transcript  26 of the proceedings herein,  27 transcribed to the best of my  28 skill and ability.  29  30  31  32 TANNIS DEFOE, Official Reporter  33 United Reporting Service Ltd.  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47 2894  1  2 (PROCEEDINGS RESUMED PURSUANT TO ADJOURNMENT)  3  4 THE COURT:  Mr. Plant.  5 MR. PLANT:  6 Q   Mrs. Alfred, the photograph which is Exhibit 162 shows  7 a sawmill.  Was that sawmill built with the  8 permission of Wah tah k'eght, to your knowledge?  9 A   I don't know about it.  You should ask him yourself.  10 Q   When you say "ask him yourself" are you referring to  11 your son Henry Alfred?  12 A   Yes.  13 Q   Mrs. Alfred, as I understand, Bazil Michell sits  14 beside you in the feast hall?  15 A   Yes.  16 Q   And beside Bazil sits George Holland?  17 A   Yes.  18 Q   And George Holland is the person who has been  19 translating your evidence for you on this  20 examination today?  21 MR. RUSH:  I'll concede that point.  22 MR. PLANT:  Well, there may be another George Holland, that's  23 why the question.  24 THE COURT:  I had assumed that it was.  25 A   Yes.  2 6 MR. PLANT:  27 Q   If you look at the photograph at tab 28, please.  28 That's tab 28 of my -- of the book of photographs  29 which I provided.  My instructions are that this is  30 a picture of a sawmill at Spring Hill.  Do you  31 recognize that?  32 A   Yes.  I have seen that.  33 Q   There's a sawmill there today?  34 A   I don't know what they're doing with it now.  It could  35 be still there.  36 Q   To your knowledge was that sawmill built with the  37 permission of Wah tah k'eght?  38 A   Yes.  These white people, they come on to our  39 territory and set up sawmills without any permission  40 whatsoever, and they don't make any contributions to  41 us at all.  42 MR. PLANT:  May that be the next exhibit, my lord.  That's the  43 photograph at tab 28.  4 4 THE COURT:  Yes.  45 THE REGISTRAR:  163.  46  47 (EXHIBIT 163:  Photograph) 2895  1  2 MR.  PLANT  3  Q  4  5  A  6  7  Q  8  9  A  10  11  12  Q  13  14  A  15  Q  16  17  A  18  19  Q  20  A  Cross-exam by Mr. Plant  There is a sawmill in the Moricetown village, isn't  there, Mrs. Alfred?  That's what I'm talking about, you shouldn't talk to  me about it.  Is there a sawmill in the Village of Moricetown that  is operated by Wet'suwet'en people?  Yes, there is.  Wet'suwet'en run it themselves.  I  don't know anything about that sawmill.  You should  question the people that operate that sawmill.  Do you know whether the Wet'suwet'en people of  Moricetown log on Wah tah k'eght's territory?  Yes.  They log at several places on Wah tah k'eght's  territory; is that correct?  No, they don't.  They only have -- they are logging  only one area above Moricetown.  Is that area near John Brown Creek or S'kwe?  No.  It's -- it's upstream on Skoyex Ts'e Kwe.  21 THE SPELLER:  382.  22 MR. PLANT:  For S'kwe?  23 THE SPELLER:  Skoyex Ts'e Kwe.  24 MR. RUSH:  What's the number, please?  25 THE SPELLER:  382.  26 THE COURT:  382.  My lord, on Exhibit 120A, which is Mrs. Alfred's  affidavit, the English name for that place is said  to be Corya Creek.  C-O-R-Y-A.  Yes.  And the location of Corya Creek on Exhibit 84 is a  creek on the west side of the Bulkley north of  Moricetown, and it's marked K underline  O-Y-H-'-D-S-A-' K-W-U-H.  It's a fairly substantial  creek that flows just above the area marked Babine L  4712 I.R. 18.  Yes.  I think that name should be pronounced by Mr.  Mitchell just so we have the same name in mind.  Yes.  I'm referring to what I've been describing, to  my understanding, is taken from government maps.  I'll provide a copy of Exhibit 84 to Mr. Mitchell  and show him the word.  :  Koyh'dsa' Kwuh.  Koyh'dsa' Kwuh.  Well, the word that Mr. Mitchell has just pronounced,  is that a word that's familiar to you, Mrs. Alfred?  27  MR.  PLANT:  28  29  30  THE  COURT:  31  MR.  PLANT:  32  33  34  35  36  37  THE  COURT:  38  MR.  RUSH:  39  40  MR.  PLANT:  41  42  43  44  THE  SPELLER  45  MR.  PLANT:  46  Q   W(  47 2896  Cross-exam by Mr. Plant  1 THE INTERPRETER:  What was —  2 MR. PLANT:  I beg your pardon?  3 THE INTERPRETER:  What was that creek again?  4 MR. PLANT:  I'll ask Mr. Mitchell to pronounce the word that he  5 said after reading what is on Exhibit 84.  6 THE SPELLER:  Koyh'dsa' Kwuh.  7 A   That's the same creek as Skoyex Ts'e Kwe.  8 MR. PLANT:  9 Q   As I understand, your evidence is that the  10 Moricetown -- people of Moricetown who are logging  11 are logging only on Skoyex Ts'e Kwe; is that  12 correct?  13 A   Yes.  That's -- they're logging on the hill on the  14 east side of Skoyex Ts'e Kwe.  15 Q   And is that hill west of the highway near Moricetown?  16 A   Yes.  It should be west of Village of Moricetown.  17 Q   And do you know if that logging is being done for the  18 sawmill in Moricetown?  19 A   Yes.  20 Q   Is that logging being done with the permission of Wah  21 tah k'eght, to your knowledge?  22 A   That's what I'm talking about.  You should talk to him  23 about it.  You shouldn't be talking to me about it.  24 Q   As one of the senior chiefs in the house of Wah tah  25 k'eght, Mrs. Alfred, are you able to tell me whether  26 or not that logging is being done with the  27 permission of the house of which Wah tah k'eght is  28 the chief?  29 A   Yes.  They set up the sawmill for the village peoples'  30 own benefit, such as material for building houses,  31 and things like that.  It wasn't meant for the white  32 man's benefit.  33 Q   To your knowledge did the house of Wah tah k'eght give  34 permission for the logging that's taking place on  35 Corya Creek, Skoyex Ts'e Kwe?  36 A   Yes.  See, we probably did give permission because  37 so's it would benefit all the people in the village.  38 Q   Do you know -- well, let me ask you this.  This is  39 clear cut logging that's taking place?  40 A   They've clear cut a small area up to now, and they  41 probably do a little bit at a time for conservation  42 reasons.  43 Q   Why do you say -- do you have any basis for saying  44 that they will do a little bit at a time, Mrs.  45 Alfred?  46 A   I don't know the -- they don't talk to me about it,  47 and I don't know exactly what their plans are or 2897  Cross-exam by Mr. Plant  1  2  3  MR.  PLANT  4  THE  COURT  5  MR.  PLANT  6  THE  COURT  7  MR.  RUSH:  8  THE  COURT  9  10  MR.  RUSH:  11  THE  COURT  12  13  RE-I  E1XAMIN  14  Q  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  A  23  Q  24  25  A  26  Q  27  28  A  29  Q  30  31  A  32  Q  33  34  A  35  Q  36  37  38  39  40  41  A  42  Q  43  44  45  A  46  Q  47  A  anything, so you shouldn't be speaking to me about  it.  Those are all my questions, my lord.  Thank you.  Thank you very much, Mrs. Alfred.  Ready to proceed, Mr. Rush?  Yes.  Would you -- let me see.  Yes, Mr. Macaulay has  cross-examined already.  Yes.  I wouldn't want to give him another chance.  No.  VTION BY MR. RUSH:  I can ask you a few more questions now, Mrs,  and you'll be happy to hear they are few.  Alfred,  Mr. Macaulay, the gentleman that is seated right  here, you might remember asked you some questions  the other day about the chiefs' names.  And my  question is are there names for children that are  passed on at feasts?  Yes.  Are there names for young men and women who are  just -- who are adolescents?  Yes.  It's always been that way.  Yes.  And are these considered -- are these considered  chiefs' names?  No.  And you said there are big chief names and little  chief names?  Yes.  And the name of Wah tah k'eght, would that be a big  chief name?  Yes.  Now, Mrs. Alfred, I want to ask you some questions  about some names that were suggested to you by Mr.  Macaulay in his examination.  Mrs. Alfred, you were  asked about Peter Pierre and whether or not he was a  member of the trapline company.  Do you remember the  name Peter Pierre?  No, I don't know about that.  Okay.  You were asked about William Caspit.  And I  wanted to know if you remember the name is the  person still living or is he passed on?  Yes.  That was old Caspit.  Old Caspit, yes.  Is passed on. 2896  1  Q  2  A  3  Q  4  A  5  Q  6  A  7  Q  8  A  9  Q  10  A  11  Q  12  13  A  14  Q  15  A  16  Q  17  A  18  Q  19  A  20  Q  21  22  23  A  24  Q  25  26  A  27  Q  28  29  A  30  Q  31  32  A  33  Q  34  A  35  Q  36  37  A  38  Q  39  A  40  41  42  Q  43  44  A  45  46  47  Re-exam by Mr. Rush  And Arthur Michell, he's passed on?  Yes.  And Tommy Michell, he's passed on?  Yes.  And Ester Michell, she has passed on?  Yes, she's also passed on.  And Walter Michell?  Yes.  He's also passed on.  And what about Tommy Bazil, has Tommy passed on?  Wondering who is Tommy Michell?  I said Tommy Bazil.  I think I said -- excuse me.  Tommy Michell I meant to say.  Yes, I see.  Yes.  Yes, he's passed on.  Okay.  And Madeline Michell?  They've all passed on.  Okay.  Paul Baptist, has Paul passed on?  Yes.  And Estelle Baptist?  Yes, passed on too.  Okay.  Mrs. Alfred, you might remember that Mr. Plant  asked you some questions about the church chief.  Do  you recall that?  Yes.  All right.  The priest at Moricetown, do you know the  priest?  Yes.  Does the priest wear a robe that's made out of deer  skin?  Yes.  Do you go to church yourself, and have seen him wear  this robe?  Yes.  Is that the robe that he uses at the mass?  Yes.  At the mass.  Yes.  I made that for the priest.  And does that robe have the four clans of the  Wet'suwet'en people on it?  Yes.  You were asked about how the church chief is chosen?  They are -- they are chosen by the members of the  village and then the bishop comes and baptizes them  in the Catholic church.  Okay.  Is the church chief chosen by the members of  the village at a meeting of those members?  Yes.  They are selected at a meeting of the village  people, and then they also are -- It's just like a  chief.  They are -- they always have successors.  Just like successors that have carried on from 2899  1  2  3  Q  4  A  5  Q  6  7  8  9  A  10  Q  11  12  A  13  14  Q  15  16  A  17  Q  18  A  19  Q  20  21  A  22  Q  23  A  24  Q  25  26  27  28  A  29  Q  30  31  A  32  Q  33  34  35  36  37  38  A  39  Q  40  41  A  42 MR.  RUSH:  43  44  45  46  47 THE  COURT  Re-exam by Mr. Rush  almost like generation to generation and, for  example, the way Pat took over from my husband.  Pat Namox succeeded your husband as church chief?  Yes.  I want to ask you about something different now.  You  told us that your husband Peter Alfred logged a long  time ago at a sawmill that was north of K'aaz Kwe.  Do you remember saying that to us?  Yes.  Now, Mrs. Alfred, do you remember if the kind of  logging that they did then was selective logging?  Yes.  They didn't cut everything down they just took  the big mature timber only.  You were shown a photograph of the Moricetown  firehall?  Yes.  Not a bad photograph all in all.  Yes.  Are there young men and women who are the volunteer  firefighters who staff the firehall?  Yes.  Is your son Cecil one of those volunteer fire people?  Yes.  You were also shown a photograph of a sawmill at what  is said -- what is suggested to you as being at  Spring Hill.  It's at tab 28.  Do you have that,  Mrs. Alfred?  Yes.  When you look at that photograph do you know whether  or not that is what is called a portable sawmill?  Yes.  Now, you were asked some questions about the logging  of the Moricetown village at a place called Corya  Creek.  You were asked some questions about that.  And you were asked about the -- what was suggested  to you was clear cut logging there.  Do you remember  that?  It was just oh, ten minutes ago.  Yes.  Mrs. Alfred, have you ever seen any of the documents  or papers that relate to any of that?  No.  My lord, those are the questions that I have put  together in my mind to ask Mrs. Alfred.  I would  like to consult with Ms. Mandell to see whether or  not there's anything more that I might ask, and if  you would allow me a brief adjournment.  :  You want to adjourn now until two o'clock? 2900  Re-exam by Mr. Rush  1  MR.  RUSH:  2  3  4  THE  COURT  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  MR.  PLANT  12  MR.  RUSH:  13  MR.  PLANT  14  THE  COURT  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  MR.  PLANT  22  23  24  25  THE  COURT  26  27  28  29  MR.  PLANT  30  31  THE  COURT  32  MR.  PLANT  33  34  35  36  37  MR.  RUSH:  38  THE  COURT  39  40  41  42  43  44  MR.  RUSH:  45  46  47  We could do that.  I was going to suggest that -- I  can also probably make my determination in 15  minutes.  Perhaps -- why fudge on it.  I think --  All right.  Just perhaps to save a little time, and  perhaps if you decide there is nothing else, could I  ask maybe a few general questions.  Maybe the  witness can help me, perhaps counsel can.  Can  counsel tell me what the size of this claim to  territory is?  Square miles or kilometres.  Just a  general idea.  I could provide that, or my friend may be able to.  I cannot.  I may be able to give your lordship some rough --  Speak to your friend and see if you can agree on a  figure.  Next, is the easterly boundary of the  territory as shown on Exhibit 84 also the easterly  boundary of the total claimed area of the  plaintiffs?  Thank you.  I'm looking, for example, at what is shown  as Hioh Wanii.  I take that to be Chapman Lake.  Well, my lord, my understanding is that the area on  Exhibit 84 to the west of Chapman Lake where WOS  appears is no longer within the territory claimed by  the plaintiffs.  Yes.  But if one takes the most easterly part of the  territory, that dark line, that is also the -- the  easterly extremity of the total claimed areas of the  plaintiff, is it not?  Are you talking about the dark line which is the  external boundary of the Wah tah k'eght territory?  Yes.  Yes.  I think that the line which is the most  easterly line, there's a vertical line, part of the  boundary of the territory of Wah tah k'eght as shown  on Exhibit 84 continues to be the external boundary  of the plaintiffs.  I can state as it's shown on the map that's so.  Yes.  All right.  All right.  Lastly, I notice that  there are at least two Indian reserves shown just  north of Moricetown, and one on each side of the  highway, both on the west side of the river.  For  whose benefit are those Indian reserves established,  if it's possible to give me an answer.  Without seeking some confirmation of this I think I  can advise you that those were set aside on behalf  of the Wet'suwet'en people living in the Village of  Moricetown.  That's -- you're referring to I.R. 18? 2901  Re-exam by Mr. Rush  1 THE COURT:  Yes.  And —  MR. RUSH:  And I.R. 17.  There is a 17, and then there's I.R. 1,  which is Moricetown.  THE COURT:  Do I not read 19 — Bulkley River I.R. 19 just north  of Moricetown and east of the highway?  MR. RUSH:  Yes.  I see that there is I.R. 19 and beside it to  8 THE  9 MR.  10 THE  11 MR.  12  13 THE  14 MR.  15 THE  16  17  16  19 MR.  20  21 THE  22 MR.  23  24 THE  25  26  2 7 MR.  28  29  30 THE  31 MR.  32 THE  33 MR.  34 THE  35  3 6 MR.  37  38  39  4 0 THE  41  42  43 THE  44  45  46  47  Short —  I.R. 18.  2 just above I.R. 19.  MR. RUSH  Yes.  I see that there is  its left is I.R. 17.  COURT:  I hadn't noticed 17.  Yes.  RUSH:  A short distance further is  COURT:  Yes.  PLANT:  And also the reserve I.R.  It's —  COURT:  I hadn't found it.  RUSH:  It's Coryatsaqua.  C-O-R-Y-A-T-S-A-Q-U-A.  COURT:  Yes.  I see that too.  All right.  And you say, Mr.  Rush, that you believe those are for the benefit of  Wet'suwet'en people?  People.  Yes.  Living in the -- yes.  MACAULAY:  They're actually a band, my lord, an Indian band  as defined in the Act.  COURT:  Does the band have a designation or description?  MACAULAY:  Yes.  I think perhaps what I should do is seek  instructions to make it an admission.  COURT:  Well, it would be easier if counsel could give me  that information rather than try and get it from the  witness.  MACAULAY:  Yes.  I understand they're all from the same  band.  And I can't tell you just now what the  correct name of the band is.  COURT:  Yes.  MACAULAY:  We haven't been dealing with them.  COURT:  No.  All right.  MACAULAY:  Bands.  COURT:  I'll be grateful for any assistance counsel can give  me in that connection.  MACAULAY:  I point out to your lordship if we were looking  at that miniature map it would be fairly easy for  your lordship to determine whether there was an  external boundary.  COURT:  Yes.  Well, I'm waiting to hear from Mr. Rush on  that.  All right.  Two o'clock.  Thank you,  gentlemen.  REGISTRAR:  Order in court.  (PROCEEDINGS ADJOURNED)  I hereby certify the foregoing to be 2902  Re-exam by Mr. Rush  1 a true and accurate transcript of the  2 proceedings herein to the best of my  3 skill and ability.  4  5  6  7 Peri McHale, Official Reporter  8 UNITED REPORTING SERVICE LTD.  9  10 1         (PROCEEDINGS RESUMED PURSUANT TO A LUNCHEON  ADJOURNMENT  2 AT 2 : 0 0 P . M. )  3  4 THE REGISTRAR:  Order in court.  Recalling Delgamuukw against  5 Her Majesty the Queen.  6 THE COURT: Mr. Rush?  7 MR. RUSH:: I have no further questions of Mrs. Alfred, thank  8 you.  9 THE COURT: All right.  Thank you, Mrs. Alfred, you are excused  10 and no one has any more questions for you.  11  12 (WITNESS ASIDE)  13  14 THE COURT: Will Mr. Holland and Mr. Mitchell be required  15 further?  16 MR. RUSH: Yes, Mr. Mitchell will be, and you'll have to ask Ms.  17 Mandell about —  18 MS. MANDELL:  Yes.  19 THE COURT: You're going to continue to assist us, Mr. Holland,  20 with the next witness?  21 MS. MANDELL:  Yes.  22 THE COURT: I won't thank you now, Mr. Holland, but thank you  23 anyway.  Mr. Mitchell is going to stay so I won't  24 thank him either but I do anyway.  25 MR. PLANT: My lord, just one brief matter on the question of  26 Indian Reserves your lordship raised before lunch.  27 In the further amended trial record at tab 10  28 appears the consolidated amended particulars of the  29 province.  Your lordship need not refer to it.  30 THE COURT: All right.  31 MR. PLANT: But on page 4 of schedule A is a list of Indian  32 Reserves, it is part of a list of Indian Reserves in  33 the claim area at large as my client understands  34 them to be, and the Reserves that are within the  35 territory that is claimed by Wah tah k'eght are to  36 the best of my present information set aside for the  37 use and benefit for what is known as the Moricetown  38 Band of Indians.  39 THE COURT: I see.  All right, thank you.  Miss Mandell.  40 MS. MANDELL:  Thank you.  My lord, the next witness will be  41 Henry Alfred.  I have advised my friends that  42 although Mr. Alfred is capable of giving his 43 testimony we hope to a large measure in English,  44 that he -- still his first language is Wet'suwet'en  45 and he is still more comfortable with the  46 Wet'suwet'en language and, for that reason, we would  47 ask that Mr. George Holland remain to be of 2903  1  2  THE  COURT:  3  4  MR.  FREY:  5  MR.  PLANT:  6  MS.  MANDELL  7  THE  REGISTR  8  9  10  11  12  13  THE  REGISTR  14  THE  WITNESS  15  16  THE  COURT:  17  18  MS.  MANDELL  19  MR.  PLANT:  20  21  THE  COURT:  22  23  EXAMINATION  24  Q  25  26  27  A  28  Q  29  A  30  Q  31  A  32  Q  33  A  34  Q  35  A  36  Q  37  A  38  Q  39  A  40  Q  41  A  42  Q  43  A  44  Q  45  46  A  47  Q  H. Alfred (for Plaintiffs)  In chief by Ms. Mandell  assistance with the interpretation.  Yes.  I think that's perfectly satisfactory, is it  not, Mr. Frey and Mr. Plant?  Yes, it is accepted.  I have no objection.  :  Thank you.  Then I'd like to call Henry Alfred.  AR:  Please take the bible in your hand.  HENRY ALFRED, a Plaintiff herein,  being duly sworn, testifies as  follows:  AR:  Please state your full name for the record?  :  Indian name Wah tah k'eght.  Henry Alfred,  Moricetown, B.C.  I take it that it isn't necessary to swear Mr.  Holland again?  :  He's been sworn.  He understands the oath.  I don't recall the oath being limited to the  evidence of Mrs. Alfred.  Thank you.  IN CHIEF BY MS. MANDELL:  Thank you.  Mr. Alfred, you are a plaintiff in this  action?  You are one of the plaintiffs who are  bringing this action?  Yes.  And your chief name is Wah tah k'eght?  Yes.  And what is your clan?  Laksilyu.  And your house?  Tsee K'al K'e yex.  And that's the house on top of the flat rock?  Yes.  And you're 53 years of age?  Yes.  And you were married in 1954?  Yes.  And you have got five grown children?  Yes.  And five grandchildren?  Yes.  And your father was the late Peter Bazil -- I am  sorry, the late -- sorry, the late Peter Alfred?  Yes.  What was his chief's name? 2904  1  A  2  Q  3  A  4  Q  5  A  6  Q  7  A  8  Q  9  A  10  Q  11  12  A  13  Q  14  A  15  Q  16  A  17  Q  18  19  A  20  Q  21  22  A  23  24  Q  25  A  26  Q  27  A  28  Q  29  A  30  Q  31  A  32  Q  33  A  34  Q  35  36  37  A  38  Q  39  A  40  Q  41  42  A  43  Q  44  45  A  46  Q  47  H. Alfred (for Plaintiffs)  In chief by Ms. Mandell  Kanoots.  Do you know his clan and his house?  Gitdumden.  And his house?  Was he from the house of Madeek?  Yes.  And your mother, do you know her chief's name?  Dz'eeh.  And your mother is Madeline Alfred?  That's right.  And she is in the same house, in the same clan as  you are?  Yes.  What is your first language?  Wet'suwet'en.  That Wet'suwet'en?  Wet'suwet'en.  And what language do you speak at home with your  wife?  Wet'suwet'en.  Do you have any problems which you can advise the  court in either speaking or understanding English?  There will be some word that I won't -- I have to  George tell.  And do you have any problems in hearing?  Poor on the left.  On the left ear is hard to hear.  Where do you presently live?  Moricetown.  And have you lived in Moricetown all of your life?  Yes.  And did you go to school there?  Yes.  And what grade did you complete?  Seven.  I'd like to ask you some questions about your early  background and the first question which I would ask  you then is who raised you?  My grandmother.  And what was her name?  Lucy Pius.  Chief name is Dz'eeh.  And that is the same name as your mother currently  holds today?  Correct.  And is she -- was she in the same house and clan as  you?  Yes.  How old were you to your recollection when you began  to live with her? 2905  1  A  2  Q  3  A  4  5  Q  6  7  A  8  Q  9  10  A  11  12  13 MS.  MANDELL  H. Alfred (for Plaintiffs)  In chief by Ms. Mandell  A very young age.  Why did you go to live with her?  Somebody has to look after her.  She was going  blind.  And did you live with her throughout the time when  you were growing up?  Yes.  Can you advise the court where her house was located  in relation to your parent's house?  Of the one -- excuse me.  The one my grandmother  used to live in is the first house.  My dad and  mother -- dad built another house right beside.  :  All right.  I wonder if you could show the witness  14 Exhibit 134?  15 THE REGISTRAR:  Tab 16.  16 THE COURT:  Thank you.  17 MS. MANDELL:  18  Q  19  20  21  22  23  A  24  Q  25  26  27  A  28  Q  29  30  A  31  32  Q  33  34  A  35  Q  36  A  37  Q  38  39  A  40  41  Q  42  A  43  Q  44  45  A  46  47  Q  I am showing you a picture which was shown to your  mother and in it she identified a house at the back  of the picture as the house where she was born in.  Can you, from -- can you identify whether it would  be in that place that your grandmother raised you?  Looks like it is the same location.  Okay, thank you.  Could you advise the court what  help you gave to your grandmother while you were  living with her?  Come again?  What help did you give to your grandmother while you  were living with her?  We would keep the house going or my chores was to  lead her get ready for next day, pack what, water.  And what help did you give her because she couldn't  see?  I was leading her.  All right.  And did you do this after school?  Yes.  And could you -- do you remember what help your  mother gave do her?  She prepared for lunch or dinner.  She bring it over  to her house.  And did your mother give her any fish?  Yes.  And do you remember what help your father gave to  her?  If my father goes hunting, if he gets some meat,  then it is distributed there.  Okay.  Under Wet'suwet'en law, is there a 2906  1  2  3  A  4  Q  5  6  A  7  Q  8  9  A  10  Q  11  A  12  Q  13  14  15  A  16  Q  17  A  18  19  20  21  Q  22  23  A  24  Q  25  A  26  27  28  Q  29  30  A  31  Q  32  33  A  34  Q  35  A  36  37  Q  38  39  A  40  41  Q  42  43  A  44  Q  45  A  46  Q  47  H. Alfred (for Plaintiffs)  In chief by Ms. Mandell  responsibility of your father to supply food for his  wife's house?  Yes.  Did your grandmother ever take you to Wah tah  k'eght's territory to pick berries?  Yes.  And who was Wah tah k'eght at the time when your  grandmother and you were together?  Peter Bazil was.  And how was Peter related to your grandmother?  Peter Bazil is my Grandmother's sister's son.  Do you remember where approximately within Wah tah  k'eght's territory you and your grandmother would go  to pick berries?  From the house, you mean direction?  Mm-hmm?  Sometimes we'd go to -- if we go to pick  blueberries, it will be down lower.  It will be  north of -- sorry, that's east of Moricetown, along  the riverside.  And did you ever pick huckleberries with your  grandmother?  Yes.  Where would you go to do that?  There is a ridge across Moricetown, just can't  remember the name of -- Wet'suwet'en name on that  hill, on the ridge.  And what kind of berries were picked by your  grandmother and you at the ridge?  Huckleberries.  Did anyone else go with you to pick berries when you  went with your grandmother usually?  All the family goes.  My mother too.  I am sorry?  My mother too.  The whole family goes and pick  berries.  And did Lucy ever take you to Wah tah k'eght's  territory to trap?  A very young age, yes.  I used to go with  grandmother.  She was trapping.  And what season of the year would you do your  trapping with her?  In the fall, late fall.  And what animals did you go to trap with Lucy?  She use -- she mainly catch mink, weasel, squirrels.  And can you describe in general terms where on Wah  tah k'eght's territory you would go with your 2907  1  2  A  3  4  Q  5  6  A  7  Q  8  9  A  10  Q  11  A  12  13  Q  14  15  16  17  A  18  19  20  Q  21  A  22  Q  23  24  A  25  Q  26  27  28  A  29  30  Q  31  32  A  33  Q  34  35  A  36  37  3 8 MS.  MANDELL  39  4 0 THE  COURT:  41 MS.  MANDELL  42  Q  43  A  44  45  46  Q  47  H. Alfred (for Plaintiffs)  In chief by Ms. Mandell  grandmother to do her trapping?  It will be from the house across the river, go  north.  Yeah, go north.  The trail goes north.  Was it a trail where you walked?  Did you take the  trail by walking?  Yes.  And did you use snow-shoes in the fall or in the  winter?  Yes.  And do you recall who made you snow-shoes?  My dad make me one small snow-shoes and go with  grandmother.  Now, you say that your grandmother taught you to --  or you went with your grandmother trapping.  What  was -- can you recall what your job was while you  were trapping with her and what she did?  I come along with her because I am interested in  trapping so I can learn a little more about trapping  and I just like to go with her.  And what would you watch her do?  Setting traps.  And would she have you do anything at the same time  or while you were together out there?  No.  Do you remember whether you went trapping with your  grandmother every year while you were growing up  with her?  I was too small to remember.  I don't know if -- we  go every fall but I don't remember.  But you stayed with her while you were growing up  and into your teen-age years; is that right?  Yes.  As you come into full memory, is your memory that  you went with her every year?  No.  Well, she was rotating -- she leave one -- she  goes trap one winter then next winter I don't recall  that we go out.  :  You recall that she was rotating.  Is that what  you said?  Yes, that's what he said.  What do you mean by rotating?  What I mean rotating is she got two little lines.  She use one side one winter and then move on the  other.  And do you know why she would rotate the lines as  you have described it? 2906  H. Alfred (for Plaintiffs)  In chief by Ms. Mandell  1 A    I don't know at that time, no.  2 Q    When you were out trapping with your grandmother,  3 did she ever mention to you the boundary or  4 boundaries of Wah tah k'eght's territory?  5 A    Yes, she did.  6 Q    And can you remember what boundary or what places --  7 Wet'suwet'en places she'd be mentioning to you at  8 that time?  9 A    She had a little line to which K'aaz kwe and she  10 keep mentioning K'aaz kwe is the line.  11 MR. PLANT:  Do you need the number for that, my lord?  12 THE COURT:  I think that the witness is talking about the creek  13 on the east side of the Bulkley north of Moricetown.  14 MS. MANDELL:  Yes.  15 THE COURT:  No.  I have that.  16 MS. MANDELL:  Did she also mention to you the names of the  17 places where you would be -- Mr. Plant was startled  18 by the last answer.  19 THE COURT:  I saw Senator Farris do that one time and he blamed  2 0 the Judge.  21 MS. MANDELL:  One good reason not to write with a fountain pen.  22 THE COURT:  I am sorry.  Now that we've had a interruption, I  23 think I should ask whether I have it right that the  24 witness was asked about boundaries and he said that  25 his mother had a little line at K'aaz kwe and then I  26 have he said that was the line.  Now, that's what I  2 7 have.  28 MS. MANDELL:  I thought that the question, my lord, on that was  2 9 whether when he was trapping with his grandmother  30 did she mention any of the boundary lines to him and  31 he mentioned K'aaz kwe and --  32 THE COURT:  And I have he said that was the line, and I don't  33 know what he meant by that.  34 MR. PLANT:  The note I have is, keep saying K'aaz kwe is the  35 line.  3 6 THE COURT:  Yes.  37 MR. PLANT:  And I thought that was grandmother that kept saying  38 that.  39 MS. MANDELL:  4 0        Q    Did your -- when your grandmother mentioned K'aaz  41 kwe to you, was she -- you said earlier that she  42 said that's the line.  Were you talking about the  43 boundary line when she said that?  44 A    Yes, the boundary line.  45 Q    When she said K'aaz kwe is the line, she meant it is  46 the boundary line?  47 A    The boundary line, yes. 2909  1  Q  2  3  A  4  5  Q  6  7  8  9  10  A  11 THE  SPELLER  12  13 MS.  MANDELL  14  Q  15  16  17  A  18  19  20  21 MS.  MANDELL  22 THE  SPELLER  2 3 MS.  MANDELL  24  Q  25  A  26  Q  27  28  A  29  Q  30  31  A  32  Q  33  A  34  Q  35  A  36  Q  37  A  38  Q  39  40  A  41  Q  42  A  43  44  Q  45  46  47  H. Alfred (for Plaintiffs)  In chief by Ms. Mandell  Her trapping line wasn't exactly -- was it exactly  on K'aaz kwe too?  It will be up towards the K'aaz kwe, very near to  it.  Before we had our -- the last interruption, I asked  you whether your grandmother would mention to you  the names of the places where you were going to pick  berries.  When you went there, did she mention the  Wet'suwet'en names?  One I know is Bek'et Degii Ts'ooyiin.  Bek'et Degii Ts'ooyiin,  B-e-k-'-e-t-D-e-g-i-i-T-s-'-o-o-y-i-i-n.  And was it the habit of your grandmother to be  mentioning to you Wet'suwet'en places when you  travelled with her?  Mm-hmm.  Bek'et Degii Ts'ooyiin is located south of  Moricetown, and there is another one that's  across -- east of Moricetown across the river,  We'til xoos.  That's a lot of huckleberry plant.  Is there a number?  394.  Do you remember who gave you your first gun?  My dad.  And approximately how old were you when he gave it  to you?  I'll be over ten years old.  And do you remember your first kill, when you first  used your gun?  Yes.  And was that on Wah tah k'eght's territory?  Yes.  What animal did you shoot?  Coyote.  Who were you with at the time?  My grandmother.  You did learn then how to hunt for moose and deer  and goat; is that correct?  Mm-hmm.  How did you learn to hunt for those animals?  I used to go with somebody that know how to hunt, my  dad.  The rest I learned it on my own.  You mentioned that your dad was one who you went  with.  Were there any other people that you went  hunting with when you were a young boy who you  remember taught you how to hunt? 2910  1  A  2  3  Q  4  A  5  Q  6  A  7  Q  8  9  A  10 THE  COURT:  11  12 THE  WITNESS  13 THE  COURT:  14  15  16  17 MS.  MANDELL  18  Q  19  A  20  Q  21  22  A  23  24  25  Q  26  A  27  Q  28  A  29  30  31  32  Q  33  34  A  35  Q  36  A  37  Q  38  39  40  A  41  Q  42  A  43  44  Q  45  A  46  47  H. Alfred (for Plaintiffs)  In chief by Ms. Mandell  Alfred Mitchell was one.  We went up the mountain  with him.  Was that on Wah tah k'eght's territory?  On Wah tah k'eght's territory, yes.  Can you recall anybody else?  Took Dan Michell out.  So are those the main people who taught you how to  hunt that you can recall at this time?  Yes.  Excuse me, Miss Mandell.  Mr. Alfred, what did you  say your first kill was?  :  Coyote.  Thank you, and then Ms. Mandell asked you whether  you hunted moose, deer and goat, and didn't mention  coyote, and I wondered if I had misheard you.  Thank  you.  Is it usual to see coyotes in your territory?  Pardon?  Is it usual to see coyotes in Wah tah k'eght's  territory?  Yes.  I was very -- well, 10, 11 years old when my  grandmother caught in the trap and I killed it.  That's my first kill.  Did you learn to trap beaver?  Yes.  Can you recall how you learned to do that?  I keep my ears open and I just want to learn how to  trap beaver and then one day my dad said he was  going so I asked him if I come along and he said  yes.  And I drove him down.  And in what territory did you and your father go to  trap?  On his territory, Kanoots' territory.  At Buck Flats?  Yes.  Is there some special way that you have to trap  beaver which is different than trapping other  animals?  Yes.  What is the difference?  When you trapping beavers, it is different, yes.  You put your trap under water.  For beaver?  For the beaver where he comes, so there is only one  place beaver comes out and into the shore so there  is a trail there, a little trail. 2911  1  Q  2  3  4  5  6  7  A  8  9  Q  10  11  A  12  Q  13  14  A  15  Q  16  17  A  18  Q  19  20  A  21  22  Q  23  24  25  26  A  27  Q  28  29  A  30  31  Q  32  A  33  Q  34  35  A  36  Q  37  A  38  39  Q  40  41  A  42  43  44  Q  45  A  46  Q  47  A  H. Alfred (for Plaintiffs)  In chief by Ms. Mandell  I wonder if the witness could be shown Exhibit 121?  I am showing you a photograph which had been  identified by your mother, and I am wondering  whether or not from your memory you can ever recall  your mother fishing in that location at the river as  a young boy?  The place is not on this photograph.  It's right in  here somewhere on the left corner.  Okay.  You are pointing to the left corner of the  photograph?  On the left corner, yeah.  And you saw your mother fishing at the river at that  spot when you were a young boy?  Yes.  And what kind -- how was she fishing?  What method  was she using?  She was using gaff.  And do you recall ever having seen your grandmother  down by the same spot while you were a boy?  She was - she usually sit in the back on a rock  there.  I sit with her.  And were any of the other children to your memory  down in the same place with your mother and  grandmother while they were fishing, any of  Madeline's other children?  Maybe Andrew was but I don't recall.  Did you have any jobs to do while the women were  doing their fishing?  Yes, like pack fish for them or pack wood for drying  or pack water.  Okay.  And where would you get the wood?  It would be along the river, driftwood.  Did your grandmother give you any instructions as to  which was the best wood to get?  Mm-hmm.  What did she tell you?  She told me the best wood for drying is either  cottonwood or poplar, driftwood, dry.  While you were living with your grandmother, did you  ever see your grandmother prepare for feasts?  At one time she was cooking dry meat outdoor with a  great big pot, but I didn't know it was for a feast,  but it was for the feast.  And how do you remember that it was for the feast?  There was a feast going, that's how I found out.  Did you go with your grandmother to feasts?  Usually go with her all the time. 2912  H. Alfred (for Plaintiffs)  In chief by Ms. Mandell  1 Q    And did she teach you how to behave there?  2 A    Yes.  3 Q    And what was the teaching that she gave to you about  4 how you should behave at feasts?  5 A    Well, if I want to look around and finally get up,  6 she will grab me and say sit down.  It's important,  7 the feast is important, so it's -- she used to say  8 if you spill something or from somebody's dish  9 that's sitting next to us, they got to pay for it.  10 Q    Where did you sit when you went to feasts as a child  11 with your grandmother?  12 A    Right by her.  13 Q    Did you sit on a seat beside her?  14 A    No, no.  I was sitting on the floor.  15 Q    When you were a child and still living with your  16 grandmother, were you given a chief's name at the  17 feast?  18 A    I want you to come back again?  19 Q    When you were a child, were you given a chief's  2 0 name?  21 A    Yes.  22 Q    And what was that name?  23 A    C'aminsk'et.  24 THE SPELLER:  K'eminskit, K-'-e-m-i-n-s-k-i-t (sic).  25 MS. MANDELL:  2 6 Q    And that's a chief's name from your house?  27 A    Yes.  28 Q    You were married in 1954?  29 A    Yes.  3 0 Q    And who did you marry?  31 A    Susan.  32 Q    Susan?  33 A    Susan Williams is her last name at that time.  34 Q    And what is her house and clan?  35 A    Tsayu.  36 Q    Was she from the house of Namox?  37 A    Yes.  38 Q    Does she have a chief's name?  39 A    Yes.  4 0 Q    And what is that?  41 A    G'it'an.  42 THE SPELLER:  520.  43 THE COURT:  I am sorry?  44 MS. MANDELL:  520.  45 THE SPELLER:  520.  4 6 THE COURT:  Thank you.  47 MS. MANDELL: 2913  H. Alfred (for Plaintiffs)  In chief by Ms. Mandell  1 Q    Does Susan, your wife, have the right to use a  2 territory?  3 A    Which territory?  My territory?  4 Q    No.  First of all, does she have the right to use  5 Wah tah k'eght's territory?  6 A    Yes.  7 Q    And does she also have the right to use a territory  8 belonging to her house and clan?  9 A    Yes.  10 THE COURT:  I am sorry, Miss Mandell, did the witness not say  11 his wife was from the Laksilyu?  12 MS. MANDELL:  She is Tsayu from the house of Namox.  13 THE COURT:  I have that.  What is the house?  14 MR. PLANT:  T-s-a-y-u.  15 MS. MANDELL:  T-s-a-y-u.  That's the clan and the house is  16 Namox.  17 THE COURT:  Thank you.  18 MS. MANDELL:  19 Q    I'd like to ask you about the jobs which you held  20 since you have been married, this is jobs which  21 you've -- where you've worked to earn — where you  22 have worked to earn a wage, and I'd like you to try  23 and recall for us who you've worked for or how you  24 have made money since you've been a man?  25 A    When I got married, I got a job on the CNR.  Later  26 that year I was section foreman for them.  27 Q    Okay.  And how long were you section foreman for  2 8 CNR?  29 A    With my labour section foreman, I worked 13 years.  30 Q    And did you have any other jobs?  31 A    I got a job on Highway after that few years later  32 after I finished the 13th year.  33 Q    And when you worked for the Highways what was your  34 job?  35 A    I started as labour and then I went to truck  36 driving.  From truck driving, I went to grader  37 operating.  3 8 Q    And —  39 A    That's it.  4 0 Q    And how many years did you work for Highways?  41 A    Fifteen.  42 Q    Okay.  And are you presently working earning a  43 living earning money from any job?  44 A    I am driving truck for Moricetown.  45 Q    Okay.  And how long have you been doing that?  46 A    Four years now.  47 Q    Throughout the time then that you've been married to 2914  1  2  3  A  4  Q  5  6  7  A  8  Q  9  10  11  A  12  Q  13  A  14  Q  15  A  16  Q  17  A  H. Alfred (for Plaintiffs)  In chief by Ms. Mandell  the present, have you always worked earning money in  some job or have you had periods of unemployment?  Come again?  Throughout the time from when you were married to  now, have you always worked earning money at some  job or have you had periods of unemployment?  Working all the time.  Okay.  After you got married did anybody else from  your family then move in to take care of your  grandmother?  Irene was.  Irene is your sister?  Yes.  And does she have a chief's name?  Yes.  Do you remember what that is?  'Al diits.  18 THE SPELLER:  527.  19 MS. MANDELL:  20 Q    Now, you told us that Peter Bazil Senior was chief  21 Wah tah k'eght before you were; is that correct?  22 A    Yes.  23 Q    Had Peter Bazil told you that you were in line to  24 take the chief's name before he passed on?  25 A    Peter Bazil didn't say that to me but I got good --  26 well, he takes me out.  He took me out -- took me to  27 the territory.  28 Q    Did he, before he passed on, make a point of  29 transferring his trap line to you?  30 A    In 1963, he took me out and we went -- we went out  31 behind Whuus C'oowenii.  32 MS. MANDELL:  Just — we'll get a number for that.  33 THE SPELLER:  517.  34 THE COURT:  I am sorry, 5 —  35 THE SPELLER:  17.  36 MS. MANDELL:  37 Q    Okay.  Could you carry on and tell us what happened  38 when you went out with Peter Bazil on that day?  39 A    We went up the hill on his line.  Took us about four  40 or five hours walking and he was pretty old.  We  41 went up pretty high.  We sat down and have lunch.  42 We made some tea and drank tea. For about an hour  43 we sat there, and he pointed out to me like the  44 corner of boundary lines in each corner and he told  45 me not to use that line too many times or too many  46 winters.  47 Q    When you say that he pointed out the boundary line 2915  H. Alfred (for Plaintiffs)  In chief by Ms. Mandell  1  2  3  4  A  5  Q  6  7  A  8  Q  9  10  11  A  12  13  14  15  16  Q  17  A  18  THE  SPELLER  19  MS.  MANDELL  20  Q  21  22  A  23  24  25  MS.  MANDELL  26  THE  SPELLER  27  MS.  MANDELL  28  Q  29  30  A  31  THE  SPELLER  32  MS.  MANDELL  33  Q  34  35  A  36  37  38  39  Q  40  A  41  Q  42  43  44  A  45  Q  46  47  in each corner, are those -- are you referring to  the boundary -- boundaries of Wah tah k'eght's  territory?  Yes.  And he pointed out to you certain of the boundary  landmarks; is that what you are saying?  Yes.  And from the height where you were sitting, could  you see those landmarks that he pointed out which  were on your boundaries?  There was three corners that he pointed out that we  could see boundary.  Up north is behind the hill but  I -- you can miss it because it is on the -- the  boundary from the river K'aaz kwe up to Nee biil  dilyee would be the corner.  Mr. Mitchell, can we have that word?  Nee biil dilyee.  367.  You say that he mentioned three boundary -- pointed  out three boundary marks?  Nee biil dilyee.  He pointed east or Tedeltl'ets --  sorry, behind Tedeltl'ets is they call Haneec'et  gehw.  Could we have both of those names, Mr. Mitchell?  Tedeltl'ets is 372, and 242 is Haneec'et gehw.  Did he mention any of the other boundary marks  besides those that you have told us about?  Ts'e dee k'ai.  Ts'e dee k'ai, T-s-'-e-d-e-e-k-'-a-i.  And when he told you not to use the line too many  times in one winter, what line was he referring to?  He went back and behind was Whuus C'oo wenii, that  one line, that's where we talked, and he said to use  this one one winter and then go and move on to the  next.  Was that the line where he trapped?  He trapped, yes.  Okay.  Had you ever been on that line before with  him or with anybody else before that 1963 talk you  had with Peter Bazil?  No.  And do you remember whether on that day he mentioned  to you where on Wah tah k'eght's territory you would  be able to hunt moose or trap beaver? 2916  1  A  2  Q  3  4  5  6  A  7  Q  8  A  9  10  Q  11  12  A  13  Q  14  15  A  16  THE  COURT:  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  MS.  MANDELL  29  30  THE  COURT:  31  32  MS.  MANDELL  33  MR.  PLANT:  34  THE  COURT:  35  36  37  38  MS.  MANDELL  39  THE  COURT:  40  MS.  MANDELL  41  42  THE  COURT:  43  44  45  MS.  MANDELL  46  47  THE  COURT:  H. Alfred (for Plaintiffs)  In chief by Ms. Mandell  Yes.  And when you said that he told you not to use the  line too many times in one winter, is that the same  advice that your grandmother practised in rotating  the line as you mentioned earlier?  Did you say one winter too many times?  Yes.  What would be the correct way to say it?  One winter you use one line.  The next winter you  can rotate it to the next line.  That's what Peter Bazil was telling you at that  time?  Right.  And is that when you talked about your grandmother  rotating the lines, is that what she was practising?  Yes.  Miss Mandell, I have a problem and I am grateful if  I could be assisted with it.  The witness said on  this occasion in 1963 he was shown the boundaries  and one of the boundaries that he mentioned was 372  which in the list of names is Two Bridge Lake.  Looking at Exhibit 84 and in the south-east area of  that map within the territory there is a location  which looks like a mountain top, and I thought he  was telling me about mountain peaks, tadullduluts.  I am wondering if there is certainly a confusion in  my mind.  Maybe these are totally different  locations.  :  I believe the evidence was he pointed east to  behind Two Bridge Lake and that he mentioned --  Yes, he mentioned something behind there.  I just  want --  :  Haneec'et gehw.  Number 242.  That's correct.  And I just want to find out if the  372 he mentioned is the same thing as the indication  of a map 84 which is spelled differently but  phonetically looks almost the same.  :  It is the same.  Haneec'et gehw is just behind.  Further east or south-east.  :  Yes, it is further east, not very far though.  Just a little bit east.  I have trouble visualizing a lake in the area  although it is possible in the area of such a  mountain peak.  There wouldn't be a lake up there.  :  There is one.  You will be hearing more about that  lake.  We are talking about the same thing then. 2917  H. Alfred (for Plaintiffs)  In chief by Ms. Mandell  1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  MR. PLANT:  I want to see if I can make sure that I know where  we are talking about.  Your lordship has asked about  a place that has the spelling  T-a-d-u-1-l-d-u-l-u-t-s on Exhibit 84.  THE COURT:  I haven't spelled it that way but I guess it is  d-u-1-1.  Yes, that's the location I was asking  about because phonetically it is almost the same as  372.  MR. PLANT:  I would take that to be the case.  But was the  location of Haneec'et gehw, is that printed  somewhere on the map?  Not that I found.  It is not on the map.  I don't know if it is a mountain or a lake.  THE  MS.  THE  MS.  COURT:  MANDELL  COURT:  MANDELL  Q  A  MANDELL  Is Haneec'et gehw a mountain or a lake?  It is on a mountain.  MS. MANDELL:  My lord will be hearing more about that and I  believe Alfred Joseph gave some evidence with  respect to that mountain.  THE COURT:  All right.  I don't recall that but —  MS. MANDELL:  Take my word for it.  THE COURT:  I am not surprised at that.  I have interrupted you,  Miss Mandell.  Maybe before you get into gear, we  will take the afternoon adjournment.  THE REGISTRAR:  Order in court.  Court stands adjourned.  (AFTERNOON ADJOURNMENT AT 3:00 P.M.)  I hereby certify the foregoing to  be a true and accurate transcript  of the proceedings herein,  transcribed to the best of my  skill and ability.  TANNIS DEFOE, Official Reporter  United Reporting Service Ltd. 2916  H. Alfred (for Plaintiffs)  In chief by Ms. Mandell  1 (PROCEEDINGS RESUMED PURSUANT TO ADJOURNMENT)  2  3 THE COURT:  Thank you, Ms. Mandell.  4 MS. MANDELL:  Thank you.  5 Q   We were talking about when Peter Bazil took you out on  6 the line where he trapped in 1962, or was it '63?  7 A   1963.  8 Q   '63.  Were there any other places which you can  9 remember that he identified to you which were the  10 boundaries of Wah tah k'eght's territory?  11 A   He pointed north to C'el k'iignts'etl'.  12 THE INTERPRETER:  Starts with a C.  13 MS. MANDELL:  Ron, it starts with a C.  14 THE SPELLER:  C'el k'iignts'etl' .  C'el k'iignts'etl' . C-'-E-L  15 underlined K-'-I-I-G-N —  16 THE COURT:  I-I-T-N?  17 THE SPELLER:  I-I-G-N-T-S-'-E-T-L-'.  18 THE COURT:  Thank you.  19 MS. MANDELL:  20 Q   When he mentioned -- when Peter Bazil mentioned the  21 boundary marks to you did he mention anything to you  22 about having to hunt and trap within those  23 boundaries?  24 A   Yes.  25 Q   Can you recall what he said?  26 A   He told me not to use, over use that place where we're  27 at.  Come over on to somewhere else.  28 THE COURT:  Ms. Mandell, as an old — I'm fascinated to know  29 from where these observations are being made.  I  30 have it as 517.  Can I get some indication of where  31 that is.  I suspect it's up one of these streams on  32 the west side, but I'm not even sure of that.  517  33 in the list of names is not identified.  34 MS. MANDELL:  Would you read 517 to the witness and ask  35 whether --  36 Q   The question is whether or not the name which Ron will  37 be reading to you is the place where you and Peter  38 Bazil were observing the boundaries from on that  39 day.  40 THE SPELLER:  Whuus C'oo wenii.  41 A   Yes.  42 MS. MANDELL:  43 Q   Can you help the judge understand where that is in  44 your territory?  45 A  Whuus C'oo wenii will be five, six mile east of  46 Moricetown along the Telkwa high road.  47 Q   Is there a ridge running along the -- or high point 2919  H. Alfred (for Plaintiffs)  In chief by Ms. Mandell  1 running along your territory at that place?  2 A   From Whuus C'oo wenii you start to climb up.  That's  3 on a ridge.  4 Q   Is that the highest place within your territory?  Not  5 on the boundaries, but within the territory that you  6 know of?  7 A   Next highest.  8 Q   The second highest?  9 A   The second highest.  Be little higher at the next  10 place, and that's next point.  11 Q   All right.  When you say the next point, in which  12 direction is that -- is that point which is higher?  13 A   On this trail or line he has it's little lower, and  14 then there's another line from Moricetown.  It's  15 over the hill.  It's higher.  That's what I mean.  16 There's two points there.  We were on the second  17 point.  Second highest.  18 MS. MANDELL:  Is that of assistance, my lord?  19 THE COURT:  Yes.  Thank you.  I made an assumption and it was  20 quite wrong.  It was off somewhere on the west side  21 of the property.  Much more -- it's much help to me  22 to get it located.  Thank you.  23 MS. MANDELL:  24 Q   Did Peter Bazil at the time when he spoke with you in  25 1963 give you any directions about where you should  26 trap from 1963 onwards?  27 A   That 1960 year — 1963 year, that fall, that winter I  28 used that line, but that time he said don't over use  29 one line.  There's two, three more lines beside  30 this.  Go on to the next one.  31 Q   And when you say you used that line you're referring  32 to the line that you and Peter were walking on that  33 day?  34 A  At that day that's the line of Whuus C'oo wenii.  35 Q   And when you used that line after 1963 whose traps did  36 you use?  37 A   Peter Bazil had his traps out there.  That's what I  38 used.  39 Q   And did Peter Bazil use that line in the years after  40 1963?  41 A   I don't know if he did.  42 Q   All right.  Before 1963 had you taken care of Peter  43 Bazil?  44 A   Yes.  And after '63.  45 Q   Let's begin first with the period before 1963.  How  46 did you take care of Peter?  47 A   I used to go get some water for him. 2920  1  Q  2  A  3  4  5  6  Q  7  8  A  9  Q  10  A  11  12  Q  13  A  14  Q  15  16  A  17  Q  18  19  20  A  21  Q  22  23  24  A  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  Q  32  A  33  34  Q  35  A  36  Q  37  A  38  Q  39  40  A  41  42  Q  43  44  A  45  46  Q  47  H. Alfred (for Plaintiffs)  In chief by Ms. Mandell  Okay.  Like there's no running water in the house.  You got  to go and get it off the river or the creek, so I  have to go and get it for him, and get ready for  next day.  I usually split wood for him too.  And after 1963, after your talk with Peter, did you  invite him to live with you and your family?  Yes.  And did he come to live with you then?  Through the winter, yes.  It was cold winter.  He  stayed with me.  All right.  And how many winters did he stay with you?  Two winters I guess.  M'hm.  Is there a responsibility under Wet'suwet'en  law for a nephew to look after the house chief?  Yes.  And when Peter was staying with you did you bring to  him and to your household meat which you took from  Wah tah k'eght's territory?  Yes.  It stops at my mother's place first before we --  Maybe you could explain to the court how you  distribute meat after you've caught it, and how you  did in those years?  For example like moose, if I get a moose it stops at  my mother's place first and then we cut it up and  distribute it through the family.  If it's a beaver  we take it to my mother and she did do the skin and  prepare for dry.  That way you'll have dry beaver  meat for if there is going to be a feast.  It's  distribute in the feast hall.  And what about then if you were to catch marten?  If I catch marten in the winter it stops at my  mothers.  Do the skin and stretching.  And is the same true for fish and for deer?  Yes.  And for mountain goat?  Yes.  When -- if you were to catch beaver or marten what  happens with the skin?  The skin she stretched and dried and sell it at fur  auction.  And who then gets the money from the sale of the furs  or the pelts?  I do.  And I distribute to my mother.  And she do the  work too so we split up.  During the time when Peter stayed with you and your  family can you recall whether or not you were 2921  1  2  3  A  4  Q  5  6  7  8  A  9  Q  10  11  A  12  Q  13  14  15  A  16  17  18  19  Q  20  21  22  A  23  Q  24  25  A  26  27  Q  28  29  A  30  Q  31  32  A  33  Q  34  35  A  36  37  38  Q  39  40  A  41  Q  42  43  A  44  Q  45  46  A  47  H. Alfred (for Plaintiffs)  In chief by Ms. Mandell  providing to Peter and to your household meat from  Wah tah k'eght's territory?  Would you come back again?  During the time that Peter was staying with you and  your family do you recall whether or not you were  providing meat to your household from Wah tah  k'eght's territory?  Yes.  And do you recall whether Peter himself was going out  to hunt or trap in that period of time?  Peter Bazil, no.  Okay.  While Peter was staying with you, Peter Bazil,  did he continue to teach you of the boundaries and  the landmarks of Wah tah k'eght's territory?  Peter is a quiet man.  I'm just waiting for him to say  something about the territory and then I'll ask.  I'll ask the boundary again and about the lake.  Yes, he keep teaching me when he stayed with me.  After 1963, after you had your talk with Peter, did he  then -- did he transfer to you the trapline that he  had there on Wah tah k'eght's territory?  At '63, yes.  All right.  And when did you have the Wah tah k'eght  territory transferred to you?  The territory.  The territory was come to me at '67 after Peter Bazil  died.  Passed on.  And did you take the territory at the headstone feast  of Peter Bazil?  Yes.  Did you personally prepare to take the name Wah tah  k'eght?  Yes.  Can you tell the court what you did to prepare to take  the name?  That fall I did lots of hunting, beaver trapping, and  get prepared for the feast, headstone feast the year  after -- after the burial feast.  And did you hunt and beaver trap on Wah tah k'eght's  territory?  Yes.  Did you bring any moose from the territory to the  feast?  Yes.  Can you recall who you went with to the territory to  get that moose?  My oldest brother Andrew, and Adam Brown,  brother-in-law. 2922  H. Alfred (for Plaintiffs)  In chief by Ms. Mandell  1 Q   All right.  Do you recall if you invited them or did  2 they ask permission to come?  3 A   I don't have to invite Andrew.  He is my brother.  But  4 I invite Adam Brown, in-law.  5 Q   Can you recall where that moose came from?  What part  6 of the territory you were able to shoot it?  7 A   That would be east of Whuus C'oo wenii.  Behind Meadow  8 creek or in other words it's Meed Creek.  9 MS. MANDELL:  It's marked Meed Creek on the government maps, my  10 lord.  We'll just wait for the Wet'suwet'en.  11 THE COURT:  I don't think I have Meed Creek marked on mine.  12 Where is Meed Creek again?  It's been mentioned  13 several times, but I don't know if I've ever been  14 told where it is.  15 MR. PLANT:  My lord, it's not marked on the map, but there is a  16 body of water or a creek that flows into the  17 Bulkley, I guess downstream, or north from where the  18 capital K as in Wed'zen Kwe is on the map.  It shows  19 where --  2 0 THE COURT:  Downstream from where?  21 MR. PLANT:  Well, large capital K which is in -- which is part  22 of the word Wed'zen Kwe, which is the word for the  23 Bulkley.  24 THE COURT:  I don't see a K in that word.  25 MR. PLANT:  Another way of looking at it, my lord, is the creek  26 which is south of Moricetown on the east side which  27 has on that map K-E-H-G-Y-I-T-K-W-U-H.  2 8 THE COURT:  Yes, I have that.  29 MR. PLANT:  Well, it's a creek, on my reading of government  30 maps, below or south of that creek, but north of the  31 next creek which has a name, and the name is  32 T-O-W-K-Y-O.  33 THE COURT:  Yes.  It's —  34 MR. PLANT:  K-W-U-H.  It's between those two creeks, as I read  35 the government map.  36 THE COURT:  All right.  Thank you.  It's — Mr. Alfred, it's  37 east of the Telkwa high road, a few miles from  38 Moricetown, Meed Creek?  39 A  Meed Creek be about four or five miles.  4 0 THE COURT:  From Moricetown?  41 A   From Moricetown east on Telkwa high road.  42 THE COURT:  Yes.  Thank you.  43 MS. MANDELL:  There was a Wet'suwet'en word which we should get  44 from Mr. Mitchell before we proceed.  45 THE COURT:  All right.  The Wet'suwet'en name for Meed Creek.  46 MS. MANDELL:  No, it's not.  The name for the place where the  47 moose was trapped or caught. 2923  H. Alfred (for Plaintiffs)  In chief by Ms. Mandell  1 THE COURT:  All right.  2 THE SPELLER:  Whuus C'oo wenii.  517.  3 MS. MANDELL:  The Wet'suwet'en word —  4 THE COURT:  That's where he and his chief had the conference in  5 1963.  6 MS. MANDELL:  That's right.  7 THE COURT:  Same place.  8 MS. MANDELL:  Same place.  The Wet'suwet'en word for Meed Creek  9 is found on page four of Madeline Alfred's affidavit  10 Exhibit 120 under creeks, my lord, for your  11 reference.  It's --  12 THE COURT:  It was —  13 MS. MANDELL:  Fourth creek from the bottom of the list.  14 THE COURT:  Yes.  Thank you.  15 MS. MANDELL:  16 Q   You say that you also brought beaver from the  17 territory to the feast.  Did you -- did you trap  18 beaver alone or did you trap with somebody else?  19 A  Most the time I go alone, but sometimes Cecil comes  2 0 with me.  21 Q   That's your brother Cecil?  22 A   Right.  23 Q   And can you recall where you were on the territory to  24 trap the beaver?  25 A   For Peter Bazil feast we went to that Meed Creek we  26 were talking about.  That's where we trapped beaver.  27 Q   Okay.  And you described earlier that once the animals  28 were captured that they would then be taken by you  29 to your mother's house where the meat was prepared.  30 Did the same process happen for the animals which  31 you trapped or caught for the funeral feast of Peter  32 Bazil?  33 A   Yes.  34 Q   And how was the beaver then prepared?  35 A   She dried the meat.  For when the feast comes they're  36 just cooked.  37 Q   And at the feast was it announced from whose territory  38 the meat came?  39 A   In the feast hall it's always mentioned where it comes  40 from.  41 Q   Under Wet'suwet'en law is it important that meat be  42 contributed to the feast from the chief's territory?  43 A   Yes.  44 Q   And can you explain why?  45 A  Maybe it's very valuable for Wet'suwet'en.  46 Q   You say it's valuable to the Wet'suwet'en?  47 A   Yes. 2924  H. Alfred (for Plaintiffs)  In chief by Ms. Mandell  1 Q   And in what way then is it valuable that the meat  2 comes from the chief's territory?  3 A   Can I talk with the --  4 Q   You can answer in Wet'suwet'en and George can  5 translate if you feel more comfortable.  6 MR. PLANT:  Maybe the question should be translated.  7 THE INTERPRETER:  Ask the question again, please.  8 MS. MANDELL:  9 Q   The question is can you explain what you mean by it's  10 valuable to the Wet'suwet'en that the meat come from  11 the territory of the chief?  12 THE INTERPRETER:  It's hard for me to understand exactly what  13 was meant by the value, but I think that when the  14 meat is being used in the feast it is to identify  15 when it is -- when it is mentioned in the feast it  16 is to identify the territory that it comes from.  17 Q   Okay.  Apart from your contribution in meat did you  18 personally contribute any money or any other goods  19 to the feast?  20 A   Yes.  21 Q   And can you recall what you personally were able to  22 contribute?  23 A   I was ready.  For year I bought some blankets, towels,  24 and sugar, and then I contribute money.  Save some  25 money for it.  2 6       Q   Approximately how much was it -- was the goods and the  27 money which you contributed?  About how much was  28 that worth that you personally contributed?  29 A   Oh, just say a large amount of money.  The money I put  30 in was thousand dollars, but with all the goods come  31 probably about 20, 2,500.  32 Q   Okay.  And do you recall what the total contribution  33 from your clan was at that feast when you took your  34 name?  35 A  At the collection it would be under 10,000.  36 THE COURT:  Under five?  37 MS. MANDELL:  Ten.  3 8 THE COURT:  Under ten.  39 MS. MANDELL:  Were any other chiefs' names given out at that feast?  Yes.  Which name and to whom?  The man -- the name I called before Wah tah k'eght.  And who was the name given to?  Cecil.  That's your brother Cecil.  Did the chiefs who were  present at the feast approve of your taking that  40  Q  41  A  42  Q  43  A  44  Q  45  A  46  Q  47 2925  H. Alfred (for Plaintiffs)  In chief by Ms. Mandell  1 name Wah tah k'eght?  2 A   Yes.  3 Q   And could you explain how they indicated their  4 approval of your name?  5 A   Each chief for each clan were getting up and made a  6 speech over it.  7 MS. MANDELL:  Okay.  Excuse me, Madam Registrar.  I wonder if we  8 could produce Exhibit 123.  9 Q   Do you need glasses?  10 THE REGISTRAR:  The witness' glasses just broke and he can't see  11 it very well.  12 THE COURT:  Oh, we're having an accidental day.  13 MS. MANDELL:  Perhaps we can proceed and I'll come back to the  14 picture if we get the glasses fixed before the end  15 of the day.  16 Q   Does Wah tah k'eght have a fishing site at Moricetown?  17 A   Yes.  18 Q   And have you fished at that fishing site since you've  19 taken the name Wah tah k'eght?  2 0 A   Yes.  And late summer.  21 Q   Okay.  And when you did fish there by what method did  22 you use to catch the fish?  23 A   I used gaff that time.  24 Q   I don't think we are going to get your glasses  25 repaired.  Did you fish at that site before you were  26 married; do you recall?  You can use George's  27 glasses.  I'm showing you a picture which Madeline  28 Alfred, your mother, identified, and I'm wondering  29 if you can point out in the picture the location  30 where you fished in Moricetown?  31 A   It would be on that point there.  32 Q   All right.  33 A   This is high water here.  34 Q   M'hm.  35 A   But it's on the other side right in here somewhere.  36 Q   Okay.  The witness is indicating the rock where  37 there's a red X.  3 8 MR. PLANT:  T.  39 MS. MANDELL:  A red T currently on the exhibit, and he indicates  40 he was fishing just behind that rock.  Okay.  41 Thanks.  42 Q   Before you were married do you recall whether or not  43 you would fish at that location?  44 A   Yes.  45 Q   And when you got fish can you recall then how you  46 distributed them?  47 A   They stop at my mother's place. 2926  1  Q  2  A  3  Q  4  A  5  Q  6  7  A  8  9  10  Q  11  12  13  14  A  15  Q  16  17  A  18  Q  19  20  A  21  22  23  Q  24  25  26  A  27  Q  28  A  29  Q  30  A  31  Q  32  A  33  Q  34  A  35  Q  36  A  37  Q  38  A  39  Q  40  41  A  42  43  Q  44  45  A  46  Q  47  A  H. Alfred (for Plaintiffs)  In chief by Ms. Mandell  The same process as you described with the meat?  Yes.  And you fished there after you were married?  Yes.  And after you were married did you also distribute  fish to your wife's clan?  It stops at my mother's place.  If we got enough, and  then I'll take it to my place and distribute to  within my wife's clan.  My wife's family.  Now, can you advise the court whether you've fished  throughout your adult life at Moricetown at that  spot or whether you've stopped fishing while you've  been an adult?  I stopped fishing long, long time ago.  How old were you approximately when you stopped  fishing?  About 35, 40.  Okay.  And can you advise the court why did you stop  fishing at that time?  Every time I get out there and I look at the waters  swept by you and I get dizzy like it's gonna fall.  That's it.  I had accident few years before that.  After you were unable to fish down at that site and  you stopped fishing did you receive salmon from  anyone else?  Yes.  And who would you get your salmon from?  Buddy Williams.  And how is Buddy Williams related to you?  Buddy Williams' son is married to my sister.  And was Buddy a G'itnee?  Yes.  And do you know whether he had a chief's name?  Yes.  And what was that name?  Haaluus.  529.  Haaluus.  When Buddy would provide fish to you would you help  him in any way with the fishing that he did?  Yes.  I helped one day, and then he says next day the  catch will be yours.  Apart from your fishing at Moricetown do you fish on  your territory?  Yes.  And what fish do you catch from your territory?  Steelhead. 2927  H. Alfred (for Plaintiffs)  In chief by Ms. Mandell  1 Q And what season of the year?  2 A In the fall.  3 Q And by what method do you catch steelhead?  4 A I use rod and reel.  5 Q Can you -- can you estimate how many years or how long  6 it's been that you've been taking steelhead from  7 your territory?  8 A Since I got the territory from Wah tah k'eght.  9 Q And could you fish every year?  10 A Every year except last couple.  This fall and last  11 fall.  Three years I haven't.  12 Q Every year except for those last three years?  13 A Yes.  14 Q You don't have to the tell the court the precise  15 locations, but where within your territory do you go  16 for steelhead?  17 A It would be easier for me if I say just east of Meed  18 Creek.  19 Q In the Bulkley?  20 A In the Bulkley.  21 Q Okay.  Can you recall whether or not steelhead from  22 your territory has been distributed and announced at  23 a feast?  24 A Yes.  25 Q Can you recall whose feast that was?  26 A It was on Alec Tiljoe's feast.  There's another feast  27 that did.  Was on Annie Michell, Alec's sister's  28 funeral.  29 Q And whose clan -- which clan was Alec Tiljoe?  30 A Tsayu.  31 Q And what about Annie Michell?  32 A Also Tsayu.  33 Q And were you helping out your wife's clan when you  34 contributed fish to that feast?  35 A Yes.  36 Q Is there a lake on your territory where trout are  37 located?  38 A Yes.  39 Q Which is that lake?  40 A Tedeltl'ets.  41 THE SPELLER:  372.  42 THE COURT:  272?  43 THE SPELLER:  372.  44 THE COURT:  Is this a convenient time to adjourn?  Whenever it's  45 convenient.  46 MS. MANDELL:  That's fine.  We're in mid-flight.  We could go  4 7 anytime. 2926  H. Alfred (for Plaintiffs)  In chief by Ms. Mandell  1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  THE  MS.  THE  MS.  THE  MR.  THE  COURT:  MANDELL  COURT:  MANDELL  COURT  PLANT  COURT  That's all right.  372 is Tedeltl'ets Lake.  Yes, my lord.  I don't know -- you asked earlier  about Tsayu, and it's 135.  Oh, yes.  135.  Oh, yes.  Which one was that?  He mentioned it again.  This is the clan of his  wife.  Yes.  And also Alec Tiljoe.  Yes.  135.  All right.  Thank you.  We'll adjourn  until ten o'clock tomorrow.  And you still wish to  adjourn at 12:30?  MR. RUSH:  Yes.  THE COURT:  All right.  Thank you.  THE REGISTRAR:  Order in court.  Courts stands adjourned until  10:00 a.m. tomorrow morning.  (PROCEEDINGS ADJOURNED TO JANUARY 22, 1988 AT 10:00 a.m.)  I hereby certify the foregoing to be  a true and accurate transcript of the  proceedings herein to the best of my  skill and ability.  Peri McHale, Official Reporter  UNITED REPORTING SERVICE LTD. 2929  H. Alfred (for Plaintiffs)  In chief by Ms. Mandell


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