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Delgamuukw Trial Transcripts

[Proceedings of the Supreme Court of British Columbia 1987-06-19] British Columbia. Supreme Court Jun 19, 1987

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 1520  9 THE COURT  10  11 MR  Smithers, B.C.  19 June 1987  GOLDIE:  (PROCEEDINGS RESUMED AT 10:00 A.M.)  THE REGISTRAR:  Order in court.  In the Supreme Court of British  Columbia, this 19th day of June, 1987.  Delgamuukw  and others, and Her Majesty the Queen.  Thank you.  Mr. Rush, before -- I am sorry.  Mr.  Goldie?  My lord, I had a preliminary note.  I had a motion  returnable Monday with respect to an order directing  delivery of upon 60 days instead of 30 days.  In  light of the meeting on Wednesday with respect to  trial progress, perhaps it might be appropriate to  defer the argument on that until Thursday morning.  RUSH:  I agree.  COURT:  Yes, certainly.  All right, thank you.  Mr. Rush,  just before you begin, if it is convenient, trying  to gain just a preliminary understanding of what  this -- the evidence of this witness will relate to,  I looked at the map which is included in Exhibit 62  for Identification and I wonder if it is possible to  tell me just in the upper left-hand quarter, there  is a fairly -- appears to be a fairly substantial or  relatively substantial river or stream with a  junction with another one in a small settlement or  appears to be a small settlement.  Are those capable  of identification that I can locate them on another  map and get some idea where they are?  RUSH:  Yes, they are.  Your map is turned on its side.  COURT:  Well, I had the legend at the bottom.  RUSH:  Yes, with the north sign on your right hand.  COURT:  Yes, the north side -- now, the area I am talking  about --  RUSH:  And when —  COURT:  I am looking for major landmarks.  RUSH:  When it is positioned like that, you will see that in  the middle of the territory is the English lettering  of Morice River, and that's between Owen and  Biiwenii C'eek, virtually in the right -- in the  middle of the territory.  If I may just point out,  my lord, it is -- the lettering is right here.  COURT:  Oh, yes.  RUSH:  And that's one of the major -- the Morice River is a  major tributory of the Bulkley and, if you follow  that river from your left to right, it takes a dog  12  13  14  15  16  17 MR.  18 THE  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31 MR.  32 THE  33 MR.  34 THE  35  3 6 MR.  37 THE  3 8 MR.  39  40  41  42  43  44 THE  4 5 MR.  46  47 1  2  3  4  5  THE  COURT  6  7  MR.  RUSH:  8  THE  COURT  9  MR.  RUSH:  10  11  12  THE  COURT  13  MR.  RUSH:  14  15  16  17  18  THE  COURT  19  MR.  RUSH:  20  THE  COURT  21  MR.  RUSH:  22  THE  COURT  23  MR.  RUSH:  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  THE  COURT  31  MR.  RUSH:  32  33  THE  COURT  34  35  36  37  MR.  RUSH:  38  THE  COURT  39  MR.  RUSH:  40  41  42  43  44  THE  COURT  45  46  47  1521  leg and moves up to the north and eventually joins  the Bulkley at Houston which is a small -- well, it  is indicated as a settlement at the upper right-hand  quadrant of the map.  So that is Houston up there then and Morice River  runs into the Bulkley at Houston?  Just west of Houston.  All right.  And in both cases, the Bulkley and the Morice River  are called in Wet'suwet'en, Wet'sen Kwe, and there  will be an explanation of that.  All right.  If I may take you down to where I first directed your  attention to the Morice River lettering, there is a  river which joins the Morice at the location called  Biiwenii C'eek, and that's virtually at the centre  point of the territory.  Yes.  And the evidence will be that that is Owen Creek.  Biiwenii C'eek is Owen Creek?  No, Biiwenii C'eek is a campsite.  I see, yes.  A house site, and the river that runs into that and  joins the Morice River at Biiwenii C'eek is Biiwenii  Kwe and known as Owen Creek and that flows out of --  you will see in the lower right-hand quadrant of the  map a lake which is entitled Biiwenii Ben and that  is called Owen Lake, and you will see the lettering  Owen Lake.  Yes.  The witness mentioned that yesterday.  Yes.  So those are the major river systems within the  territory.  Yes, I understand that.  And I have it right, have  I, that in the upper right, the settlement that  appears to be there by the little lot lines that are  drawn, that would be Houston?  That's right, yes.  All right.  That's fine.  Thank you very much.  All right.  My lord, there are two other preliminary  matters before we continue with the evidence of Mr.  Joseph.  One is that we neglected to swear our  interpreter, Mr. Mitchell, and I wonder if we could  do that now.  All right.  I didn't think we were swearing the  person discharging that function as he's really an  adjunct of the reporter but I am happy to have him  sworn. 1522  1 MR. RUSH:  I understood it was done for Fern Stevens.  2 THE COURT:  Yes.  I am happy to have that done if you wish.  You  3 don't mind, Mr. Mitchell.  4 THE REGISTRAR:  Would you please stand up and take the bible in  5 your hand?  6  7 RON ALFRED MITCHELL, Sworn as an Interpreter.  9 THE  10  11 THE  12 THE  13 MR.  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22 THE  23  24  2 5 MR.  2 6 THE  2 7 MR.  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  4 0 THE  41 MS.  42 THE  43  44  45 THE  4 6 THE  47 THE  COURT:  RUSH:  COURT:  GOLDIE:  REGISTRAR:  Please state your full name and spell your last  name to the Court?  TRANSLATOR:  Ron Alfred Mitchell, M-i-t-c-h-e-1-1.  COURT:  Thank you, Mr. Mitchell.  RUSH:  Thank you.  It was brought to my attention yesterday  when I made reference to the list of Gitksan and  Wet'suwet'en plaintiffs and Kitwancool chiefs that  that list had not been entered as an exhibit and  although we have been making reference to it, it  might be convenient to list that as an exhibit at  this time, and I will also be asking in due course  to have the Wet'suwet'en word list for Gisdaywa to  be entered as an exhibit.  The one you are talking about is the list of Gitksan  and Wet'suwet'en witnesses and Kitwancool chiefs  starting with Antgulilbix?  Yes.  Any objection with that being marked as an exhibit?  No, none whatsoever, my lord.  I had put together  for convenience the other two glosseries which Mr.  Grant handed up; the one is dated May 27, '87,  place, names Antgulilbix territories and related  territories starting with the number 300, and then  there was -- maybe actually it preceded it, I am not  sure.  Same date described as names which will come  up in Mrs. Johnson's list and that runs from one to  29, and then there is names of Mary's house, one to  46.  I don't know that those last two need be marked  but it might be -- may not be necessary but I  certainly agree that the list of plaintiffs should  be marked.  COURT:  All right, and Mr. Macaulay?  KOENIGSBERG:  If I may speak, we have no objection.  COURT:  Yes, certainly.  Well then, the list of Gitksan and  Wet'suwet'en plaintiffs and Kitwancool Chiefs will  be the next exhibit, Madam Registrar.  REGISTRAR:  Sixty-three.  COURT:  Do you have a copy?  REGISTRAR:  No, I don't. 1523  1 THE COURT:  Mark my copy if you wish.  2 THE COURT:  That will be Exhibit 63.  3 MR. RUSH:  Thank you.  4  5 (EXHIBIT 63 - LIST OF GITKSAN AND WET'SUWET'EN  6 PLAINTIFFS AND KITWANCOOL CHIEFS)  7  8 THE COURT:  All right, thank you.  Mr. Rush?  9 THE REGISTRAR:  Witness, I remind you you are still under oath.  10  11 ALFRED JOSEPH, Previously Sworn:  12  13 EXAMINATION IN CHIEF CONTINUED BY MR. RUSH:  14 Q    Now, Mr. Joseph, we can begin with your evidence.  15 Yesterday you gave us testimony about the 1974 feast  16 at which you received the name Gisdaywa and you were  17 telling us about the responsibility and authority  18 you had as the Chief of the House.  Now, I would ask  19 you who it is in your House that you are responsible  20 for as a chief?  21 A    Yes.  I am responsible for all the people that are  22 in the House of Kaiyexweniits.  23 MR. RUSH:  That's 114.  24 THE COURT:  Can I have the list back please, Madam Registrar?  25 Thank you.  26 A   And I have to make sure that there is a -- proper  27 procedures are followed according to Wet'suwet'en  28 Law, when there is a feast for funerals, feast for  29 stones, feasts for marriages, and see that proper  30 people are there to perform duties and there is --  31 are times when some of our House members are not in  32 the area and that happen to be in accident or death,  33 and it takes quite a bit of work to bring them home.  34 And also the responsibility are to see that the  35 younger people follow all our laws and conditions.  3 6 MR. RUSH:  37 Q    Now, how many feasts have there been hosted by your  38 House, the House of Kaiyexweniits since you became  39 Gisdaywa in 1974?  40 A    I think for the House of Kaiyexweniits itself, there  41 is probably around at least one per year.  42 Q    And I understand that there is going to be a feast  43 hosted by the Gitdumden this coming summer on August  44 16; is that so?  45 A    Yes.  46 Q    And I understand that your House, the House of  47 Kaiyexweniits, will be erecting a headstone at that 1  2  A  3  Q  4  A  5  Q  6  A  7  Q  8  9  A  10  Q  11  12  A  13  Q  14  15  16  17  A  18  Q  19  A  2 0 THE  COURT  21 MR.  RUSH:  22  Q  23  24  25  A  26  Q  27  28  A  29  Q  30  31  A  32  Q  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  A  40  Q  41  A  42  43  Q  44  45  A  46  Q  47  A  1524  feast?  Yes.  And will you be wearing regalia at that feast?  Yes, I will be.  And are you having new regalia made for that feast?  Yes, some of them will be new.  And are you yourself having anything?  Are you  intending to make anything new?  I have to see that there is something made.  All right.  And will that be worn at this feast in  the summer?  Yes.  You have referred to a headstone in your evidence,  Mr. Joseph, and you referred to a headstone of your  Uncle Thomas George, the former Gisdaywa.  Where was  that headstone erected?  The first stone was erected at his home.  And where was that located?  That is at east of Telkwa, place called Hubert.  I am sorry, Hubert?  Hubert, yes.  And was that stone ere  where there were totem poles belongi  family?  Yes.  And was there a pole that was belong  located there?  Yes.  And would you be able to identify th  showed you a photograph of it?  Yes.  All right.  Just going to refer you  of the document book and I wonder if  placed before the witness.  Now, Mr.  would just look at the first photogr  I'd ask you if you could identify th  photo?  Can you do that for me?  The  left is?  Is my Aunt Mary George who was Tsaib  Tsaibesa is 115?  And the one next to her -- is my Unc  who was Gisdaywa at the time.  And the pole -- is there a pole ther  Gisdaywa?  Yes.  And that's the pole on the right, is  Yes.  cted at a place  ng to the  ing to Gisdaywa  at pole if I  to tab 4 and 5  that could be  Joseph, if you  aph there and  e people in the  woman on the  le Thomas George  e belonging to  it? 1  Q  2  3  A  4  Q  5  A  6  Q  7  8  9  A  10  Q  11  12  13  A  14  Q  15  A  16  Q  17  18  A  19  Q  20  A  21  Q  22  23  A  24  Q  25  A  26  Q  27  28  A  29  Q  30  31  A  32  Q  33  A  34 MR.  GOLDIE  35  36  37  3 8 MR.  RUSH:  39  Q  40  41  42  43  44  45  A  46  47  Q  1525  All right.  Have you seen that pole standing and in  this location?  Yes.  And the pole on the left, what is that?  That's the pole of Smogelgem.  And Smogelgem -- now, my lord, Smogelgem is 60 on  the plaintiff's list.  Was Tsaibesa in the House of  Smogelgem?  Yes.  Now, I want to show you photograph number five, if  you will look at that, please?  Do you recognize  that scene?  Yes.  And you have seen this, have you?  Yes.  And it shows again what appears to be the pole of  Gisdaywa on the right?  Yes.  And the pole of Smogelgem on the left?  Yes.  And does that picture, does it accurately show what  you remember seeing when you saw that scene?  Yes.  All right.  That's at Hubert, is it?  Yes, that's at Hubert.  Thank you.  Are those poles standing today, Mr.  Joseph?  No, they are down.  And are they -- have they fallen to the ground in  and around the area?  Yes.  Are they still there?  Yes, they are.  My lord, if my friend could assist us by  determining approximately when the photographs were  taken, if that's within the witness's knowledge  or --  Do you know, Mr. Joseph, when these photographs were  taken?  I have the originals, my lord, which are  smaller really family-shot type photographs in  colour.  Maybe I will just show these to you, Mr.  Joseph.  Do you know when these photographs were  taken?  I take it you didn't take them?  No, I didn't take them.  They were taken in sometime  between '74 and 1967.  Thomas George was still living at the time? 1  A  2  Q  3  4  5  A  6  Q  7  8  A  9  Q  10  11  12  13  14  A  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  Q  25  A  26  Q  27  A  28  Q  29  30  A  31  Q  32  33  Q  34  Q  35  A  36  37  Q  38  A  39  40  41  42  43  44  Q  45  46  A  47  Q  1526  Yes.  Yes.  Now, Mr. Joseph, when at the feast that you  took the name of Gisdaywa, were there other chiefs  and other members of other houses present?  Yes.  And did they -- were they there witnessing what  occurred?  Yes.  Now, I want to ask you, yesterday you indicated that  at this feast, your authority over the territory was  passed to you, and would you tell his lordship what  the authority is that Gisdaywa has over his  territory and over the territory of Kaiyexweniits?  When the House Chief takes a name, they take on the  responsibilities that go with the name.  One of them  which will be to make sure that the territory you  have taken to protect, is to see that the people  that are using it make sure that there is no -- no  pollution, and no -- the area that the animals that  are using and game trails and beaver dams and  fishing sites are free of any obstructions, and you  have to make sure that people that are using it  don't clear out the animals that are there --  Do you --  -- for --  I am sorry.  -- reproduction.  Do you have authority to determine who uses  Gisdaywa's territory?  Yes.  And have you exercised that authority to permit  other people to use your territory?  Yes, I have.  And who have you given that permission to?  I have given permission to my Uncle Gisdaywa's  immediate family.  And who are they?  There is -- first one would be Jimmy George, who is  Tsaibesa, who died on the territory just not too  long ago, and then there is Andrew George, who took  the name Tsaibesa and there is Leonard George who is  Smogelgem, who has been on the territory with his  father for most of his life.  Your relationship to Andrew and Leonard is that they  are your cousins; is that right?  Yes.  And do they trap on the territory and hunt on the 1  2  A  3  Q  4  5  A  6  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  Q  14  15  A  16  Q  17  A  18  19  20  21  22  Q  23  A  24  Q  25  A  26  Q  27  A  28  29  30  31  32  Q  33  34  35  A  36  Q  37  38  A  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  1527  territory?  Yes.  And in respect of their use of the territory, how do  they respect your authority?  Well, whenever I -- whenever I wanted information or  whenever there was anyone starting to use the  territory for people like loggers, miners, if they  come into the territory, they know right away and  they let me know.  And they also make sure that no  other people start trapping or hunting around that  area without -- if I don't know about it, they let  me know right away.  Are there things that they give to you from the  territory?  Yes, they do.  What is that?  There is -- they have a younger brother, Willie, who  always likes to hunt and he -- whenever he gets --  makes a kill, we always -- I always get meat from  him.  My uncle who isn't well always gets meat from  the him as well.  Is that Sylvester?  Sylvester and Joe George, both.  Yes.  What kind of meat do you get from Willie?  Moose, deer.  Do you get other goods from the territory?  In the spring we get dry beaver meat and other  things like beaver pelts also given to my uncle.  Like I said, George is not able to work so they make  sure that he gets things off the land that he would  be able to use.  And do you receive these -- this meat and the furs  that you have indicated from Andy and Leonard as  well?  Yes.  Now, how do you ensure that the animal population on  Gisdaywa's territory is managed?  We have to make sure that the animal trails are not  disturbed; like it is -- what's been happening with  the clear cutting is it just wipes out the animal  trails and that makes it very difficult for any  animal trails.  They also have boundaries.  A wolf  has a boundary; a bear has a boundary and, when  that's wiped out, it really disturbs the animal  population.  All living creatures have boundaries  and, once you disturb that, it is -- it just makes  it really hard for all living things to -- there is 1528  1 conflict, so it makes it really hard for them.  2 Like, I heard -- I know my Uncle or Grandfather  3 always talked about seeing animals that trespass  4 into another territory and there is always a fight  5 there.  6 Q    Is there conservation that you ensure happens on  7 your territory, either yourself or through Andrew  8 and Leonard?  9 A    Yes, there is conservation; part is that you -- you  10 always keep moving, your -- the place where you are  11 trapping or hunting.  You don't use one area like  12 all winter.  You go into one valley and you use that  13 for awhile, then you move to another area.  14 Q    And are you kept informed about what changes occur  15 on your territory?  16 A    Yes.  17 Q    And have you been there to survey what's been going  18 on in the territory in recent years?  19 A    Yes.  2 0 Q    And have there been campsites which you have  21 checked?  22 A    Yes.  23 Q    What in particular did you check recently?  24 A    One of the first ones that I noticed when I first  25 went -- when I went back in there in somewhere  26 around 1980, was where my Grandfather had his camp  27 and, when I went in there, there was a big hole in  28 the ground where the cabin was or used to be, and I  29 found out that the -- either the Forestry or the  30 Parks Branch had made that into a waste dump.  Then  31 the other areas where we -- where my Uncle and  32 Grandfather had cabins, had overnight camps built on  33 them again either by the Forestry or the Parks  34 Branch.  35 Q    I will be asking you to refer to those points when I  36 direct you to your territory specifically.  Now, Mr.  37 Joseph, yesterday I showed you a genealogy chart and  38 I am going to refer you to that now.  You have made  39 mention of a number of your uncles and I just want  40 to show you that genealogy which is at tab 1 of the  41 document book.  This is a genealogy in two pages.  42 You have reviewed that genealogy with me in the  43 office; is that right?  44 A    Yes.  45 Q    I'd just like you to look at it very briefly now.  46 Look at the two pages, and does this genealogy show  47 the house members of the House of Kaiyexweniits and 1  2  A  3  Q  4  5  6  7  A  8  Q  9  10  A  11  Q  12  13  14  A  15  Q  16  17  A  18  Q  19  20  21  22  23  A  24  Q  25  A  26  Q  27  28  A  29  Q  30  31  A  32  Q  33  A  34 THE  COURT  35 MR.  RUSH:  36  Q  37  38  A  39  Q  40  41  42  A  43  Q  44  45  A  4 6 MR.  RUSH:  47 THE  COURT  1529  their relationship?  Yes.  And I would like you to look at in particular the  part of the genealogy where you are located, that's  in the right-hand side where it shows Alfred Joseph,  Gisdaywa, married to Helen Wilson?  Yes.  All right.  And your parents were Mary George Joseph  and Leon Joseph; is that right?  Yes.  And Thomas George, it indicates, was the former  holder of the name of Gisdaywa and he is the Thomas  George you have been referring to?  Yes.  And this shows that Thomas had a number of brothers  and sisters along that line, is that so?  Yes.  And I just want you to look at the -- on the second  page where it shows Willie George, Francis George  and Sylvester George and is the Sylvester that's  located here, is that the Sylvester George that you  have made reference to who is not well at this time?  Yes.  And is Francis Holeets, is he still living today?  No, he passed on.  And Willie George, you have made reference to  Willie.  Is Willie still living today?  No.  And there are other uncles and aunts on that line.  Madeline, is she still living today?  No.  And what about Joseph George, Hoog'et?  He is still alive.  Which one is that again?  Joseph.  And the other uncles and aunts in this line  have passed on; is that so?  Yes.  All right.  Now, your Grandmother on your mother's  side is indicated as Cecelia George, who was married  to Felix George; is that so?  Yes.  And your Great Grandmother indicates that -- there  is indicated there a Wet'suwet'en name, dates and --  Yes.  That's 102, my lord.  Yes, thank you. 1 MR.  RUSH  2  Q  3  4  5  6  A  7  Q  8  9  A  10  Q  11  12  13  14  A  15  Q  16  17  18  19  20  21  A  22  Q  23  A  24  Q  25  26  A  27  Q  28  29  30  A  31  Q  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  A  39  Q  40  41  A  42  Q  43  A  44  Q  45  46  A  47  Q  1530  The holder as you indicated yesterday, Mr. Joseph,  of the name of Gisdaywa prior to Thomas George is  indicated as Joseph Paul Nahloochs.  That's 100, my  lord, and is that correctly shown here?  Yes.  All right.  And the name holder of Gisdaywa prior to  Joseph Nahloochs was Gisdaywa with no English name?  Yes.  Now, Mr. Joseph, the passing of the name from the  previous name holders to yourself as indicated on  this chart, does this show that it was done  according to Wet'suwet'en Law?  Yes.  Now, thank you, Mr. Joseph.  That can just sit back  here.  Yesterday you made reference to grandfather and I  understand that a grandfather, when a Wet'suwet'en  person refers to grandfather, you may mean your  mother's father; is that so?  Yes.  Or your father's father?  Yes.  And sometimes the reference may be to your mother's  or your father's great uncle?  Yes.  Okay.  In that case, I think you said that you would  have referred to Joseph Nahloochs as your  Grandfather?  Yes.  Now, Mr. Joseph, I am going to ask you about some of  the other houses and in the Gitdumden clan, and some  of the chiefs who are in those houses to give his  lordship some idea of the Gitdumden clan.  Now, I  understand that there are three main chiefs of the  Gitdumden, and that they are Woos, that's 109, my  lord, yourself and Madeek?  Yes.  Madeek is 118.  And there is one head chief of each  House?  Yes.  And there are three houses in the Gitdumden clan?  Right.  And I understand that each chief and house has  different territories?  Yes.  And I understand that at times Woos was considered 1  2  A  3  Q  4  A  5  Q  6  7  A  8  Q  9  10  A  11  Q  12  A  13  Q  14  15  16  17  18  A  19  Q  20  A  21  Q  22  A  23  Q  24  A  2 5 MR.  RUSH:  2 6 MR.  GOLDIE  27  28  2 9 MR.  RUSH:  30  Q  31  32  33  34  A  35  Q  36  37  A  38  Q  39  A  40  Q  41  42  A  43  Q  44  A  45  Q  46  A  47  Q  1531  head of the Gitdumden?  Yes.  Has he always been considered the head of Gitdumden?  No.  Does the head chief, if I may say it that way, of  Gitdumden, may that change over time?  Yes.  And for example, today, is there one head of the  Gitdumden?  Yes.  And who would that be?  Be Woos.  Okay.  Now, there are three houses in the Gitdumden  clan as I understand it.  The first is Cassyex and  that, my lord, is at 119; the second is  Kaiyexweniits which is the house that you are the  head chief of, 114, and the third is Anskaskii?  Yes.  And that's 120, my lord.  Woos is head of Cassyex?  Yes.  And you are head of Kaiyexweniits?  Yes.  And Madeek is head of Anskaskii?  Yes.  There is now --  Excuse me, my lord, 118 describes Madeek as late  George Naziel.  Is there a current owner of that  name?  We are coming to that point.  You are anticipating  my next series of questions.  Mr. Joseph, there is no present holder of the  name Madeek; is that so?  Yes.  And Madeek, the late George Naziel, died recently;  is that so?  Yes.  Can you tell his lordship when he passed on?  December 5, 1986.  And was there a funeral feast for the late George  Naziel?  Yes.  And can you say approximately when that was?  I believe it was three days later.  After his passing on?  Yes.  And has there been a headstone feast? 1  A  2  Q  3  4  A  5  Q  6  7  A  8  Q  9  10  A  11  Q  12  13  A  14  Q  15  A  16  17  Q  18  A  19  MR.  RUSH:  20  THE  COURT:  21  MR.  RUSH:  22  THE  COURT:  23  MR.  RUSH:  24  Q  25  26  27  A  28  Q  29  30  A  31  Q  32  33  34  A  35  Q  36  A  37  Q  38  39  A  40  41  Q  42  43  A  44  Q  45  A  46  MR.  GOLDIE  47  1532  Not yet.  And normally after the funeral feast is held among  the Wet'suwet'en, when is the headstone feast held?  Within the year.  All right.  And is it at the headstone feast that  the name passes to the new chief?  Yes.  So there presently is no holder of the name of  Madeek?  That's right.  But is there someone who has been -- for whom it has  been indicated would be a successor to the name?  Yes.  And who's that?  There always is a problem, successor.  If the names  are mentioned, one of them is Russell Tiljoe.  And he has not taken the name yet?  No.  All right.  Do you have a spelling for that?  T-i-1-j-o-e.  Thank you.  Now, for the Wet'suwet'en, Mr. Joseph, I understand  that the name of a house differs from the name of a  chief; is that so?  Yes.  But can the name of a house also go by the name of  its head chief?  Yes.  Now, your House, the House of Kaiyexweniits, it has  an English interpretation or translation of that  name?  Yes.  And what does that mean in English?  It means the house in the middle of many.  And could it have another name as well or another  meaning?  It means that it's facing in a certain direction  which would be the river.  Okay.  And there are a number of sub-chiefs in your  House; is that so?  Yes.  And do they act as advisors to the head chief?  Yes.  :  I wonder if my friend wouldn't lead if he is going  to ask for the duties of the sub-chiefs. 1 MR.  RUSH:  2  3  4 MR.  GOLDIE  5 MR.  RUSH:  6  Q  7  8  A  9  Q  10  11  A  12  Q  13  14  A  15  Q  16  17  A  18  Q  19  A  20  Q  21  A  22  23  Q  24  A  25  Q  26  A  27  Q  28  A  29  Q  30  A  31  Q  32  A  33  Q  34  A  35  Q  36  37  A  38  Q  39  40  41  A  42  Q  43  44  A  45  Q  46  47  A  1533  Well, I hadn't intended to.  I was going to go into  their names which I don't think my friend will  object to.  :  No.  The other chiefs of Kaiyexweniits, Mr. Joseph, I  understand your Uncle Sylvester George, Na'ok'?  Yes.  And that's 121.  And he also carries the name of  Mahleeh?  Yes.  That's 107.  Joseph George, who is another of your  uncles, has the name of Hoog'et; is that so?  Yes.  And that's 122, my lord.  And Jack Mitchell has the  name of Beenee et'lxw; is that so?  Beenee et'lxw.  Beenee et'Ixw?  Yes.  My lord, that's 123.  What does Beenee et'lxw mean?  It has the -- it means that the -- when the fish  arrive, it is for him.  And Jack is your first cousin?  Yes.  And the fourth chief of your House is Rita George?  Yes.  And her name is Gihl lakh Khun?  Gihl lakh Khun, yes.  What does her name mean?  Bear that sleeps all winter long.  And fifthly, there is Brian George?  Yes.  And his Wet'suwet'en chief name is Atnayh?  Yes.  That's 125.  And sixth, there is Marrianne Alec, and  her Wet'suwet'en chief name is Unlogh?  Yes.  That's 126, my Lord.  And Marianne carries the name  that your Grandmother Cecelia George also carried;  is that so?  Yes.  Now, there are approximately how many members in  your House, Mr. Joseph?  Thirty.  Okay.  And have some of these members and sub-chiefs  been adopted into your House?  Yes. 1  Q  2  3  A  4  Q  5  A  6  Q  7  8  A  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  Q  19  20  A  21  Q  22  23  24  A  25  Q  26  27  A  28  Q  29  A  30  Q  31  32  A  33  Q  34  35  A  36  Q  37  38  39  40  A  41 MR.  GOLDIE  42  43  44 THE  COURT:  4 5 MR.  RUSH:  46  Q  47  1534  And they are Rita and Brian George and Marianne  Alec?  Yes.  And they were adopted into your House in 1969?  Yes.  And what was your understanding as to why they were  adopted into the house?  As you can see by the numbers that I have just  mentioned that the House is getting below in numbers  and my late uncle say that participation at the  Feast wasn't very good by the House members and it  was going down and the present House members at the  time were very young so that he saw that the ones  that were growing up at the time needed direction,  so he selected these people -- adopted these people  to act as advisors and to see that Kaiyexweniits'  House remains strong.  These adoptions occurred before you took the name of  Gisdaywa?  Yes.  I am going to ask you now about the House of  Cassyex, that's 119, the chiefs of this House are  Woos?  Yes.  That's 109.  The present holder of that name is Roy  Morris?  Yes.  And the next chief is Gyologyet?  Yes.  And that's 116, my lord.  And the holder of that  name is Gordon Hall and the next chief is Sk'et'een?  Yes.  And that's 127, my lord.  The holder of that name is  Jerry Arsenault today?  Yes.  Now, do you know where the territory or territories  of the House of Cassyex are located?  Not asking you  to define them now, just if you can say where it is  that they are located?  Woos' territory is around Tyee Lake.  I think, my lord, the question was, did he know,  and I assume they will get into it a little later  the source of the information.  I didn't get name of the lake.  Tyee, T-y-e-e.  And other territories about which  you have knowledge? 1535  1 A McBride Lake.  2 Q And does McBride Lake or that territory have a  3 Wet'suwet'en name?  4 A Yes.  5 Q Do you know it?  6 A Luut'is.  7 Q Luut'is?  8 A Luut'is.  9 MR. RUSH: I am going to ask you to spell that if you would.  10 THE TRANSLATOR:  Luut'is?  11 MR. RUSH: Would you tell his lordship the spelling?  12 THE TRANSLATOR:  Luut'is.  L- underline -u-u-t-'-i-s.  13 THE COURT: Thank you.  14 MR. RUSH:  15 Q Thank you.  And do you know of other territories  16 belonging to the House of Cassyex?  17 A That's only two that I know of right now.  18 Q Thank you.  Now, the crest of Cassyex is the  19 grizzly; is that so?  20 A Yes.  21 Q And is it also the timber wolf?  22 A Yes.  23 Q And are these crests the same for the House of  24 Anskaskii, the house of Madeek?  25 A Yes.  26 Q I am going to ask you about the House of Anskaskii  27 now.  Can you tell me, is there a special  28 relationship between a House of Anskaskii and your  29 House, the House of Kaiyexweniits?  30 A Yes.  31 Q And how does that come about?  What is the reason  32 for that?  33 A The -- some of the names from Anskaskii were in the  34 House of Kaiyexweniits.  35 Q All right.  And is it because -- let me ask you  36 this:  You signed an affidavit on behalf of the  37 House of Anskaskii to answer the interrogatories?  38 A Yes.  39 Q And that was after the late George Naziel passed on?  40 A Yes.  41 Q And is it -- was this relationship between your  42 House and a House that Mr. Naziel was head of, was  43 it because of that relationship that you did this  44 signing?  45 A Yes.  46 Q Now, the other chiefs of this House are Kanoots?  47 A Yes. 1  Q  2  3  A  4  Q  5  A  6  Q  7  A  8  Q  9  10  A  11  Q  12  13  A  14  15  16  17  Q  18  A  19  20  Q  21  A  22  23  Q  24  A  25  MR.  RUSH:  26  THE  TRANS  27  MR.  RUSH:  28  Q  29  A  30  31  Q  32  33  A  34  Q  35  36  A  37  MR.  RUSH:  38  THE  COURT  39  MR.  RUSH:  40  THE  COURT  41  42  MR.  RUSH:  43  THE  COURT  44  MR.  RUSH:  45  Q  46  47  A  1536  That's 110, my lord.  And who holds the name of  Kanoots now?  Peter Alfred.  And as well Wisalop?  Yes.  That's 12 9.  And who holds that name?  Freddie Joseph.  Now, I understand, Mr. Joseph, that there are three  territories of the House of Madeek?  Yes.  And can you say again in general terms now where  these territories are located, if you know?  They are located, one of them is located north of  Gisdaywa territory and, as you come in from the  north side from Houston, the first area you cross is  T'sagisdist'eel.  That's 130, my lord.  And the other territory would be north of C'el tay  toostaan Kwe, Houston Tommy Creek.  Just pause there.  We will -- that's 184, my lord.  And it is the north boundary of that would be Tse  tah dii t'aay.  Tse tah dii t'aay?  Yes.  And that --  LATOR:  Two ten.  Thank you.  And the third territory would be north of Broman  Lake, C'eeggez.  That's 131.  And C'eeggez, does that have a meaning  in English?  It is in between two places.  All right.  And Broman Lake, Mr. Joseph, where is  that in relation to Houston?  Is it east or west?  East of Houston.  All right.  :  East of Houston?  Yes.  And the other --  :  I am sorry, Mr. Rush.  I am sure it is not Roman, it  is --  It is Broman.  :  Broman, thank you.  And can you say just how far east of Houston that  territory is located if you know?  Be about 30 miles. 1  Q  2  3  4  A  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  Q  15  16  17  A  18  Q  19  20  A  21  Q  22  A  23  Q  24  A  25  Q  26  A  27  Q  28  29  A  30  Q  31  32  A  33  Q  34  35  A  36  Q  37  A  3 8 MR.  RUSH:  39 THE  COURT  4 0 MR.  RUSH:  41 THE  COURT  42 MR.  RUSH:  43  Q  44  45  A  46  Q  47  1537  Now, Mr. Joseph, can you say what is the importance  of the relationship between the head chief's name  and the territory?  The head chiefs, when he take a name, like I said,  the territory goes with it, and you have to see that  the rest of the sub-chiefs and other -- see that all  the clan members are using the territory, have a  place to go to, and the more people that go out to  use the territory, that means the head of each House  has more power and wealth to distribute or pay for  anything, that is, any services that have been  performed by other clans, especially on the father's  side.  Now, I want to ask you briefly about the other clans  of the Wet'suwet'en, and I understand that there are  four other clans and they are the Gilseyhu?  Yes.  That, my lord, is 132.  And that is the big Frog  clan; is that so?  Yes.  And there is the Laksamshu?  133, my lord.  That's the Owl clan?  All right.  Yes.  And that's  Yes.  And there is the Laksilyu?  Yes.  That's 134.  And that's known as the small Frog  clan; is that so?  Yes.  And finally, there is the Tsayu which is 135.  That's the Beaver clan?  Yes.  Now, did two of these clans work more closely  together?  Yes.  Which two?  Laksamshu and Tsayu.  And do they --  I am sorry?  The Laksamshu which is 133, and the Tsayu, 135.  Thank you.  And do the Laksamshu and Tsayu sit together at the  feast?  Yes.  And do they work together in discharging their  obligations at the feast? 1  A  2  Q  3  4  5  6  A  7  Q  8  9  10  A  11  12  13  Q  14  15  A  16  17  Q  18  19  20  A  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  Q  37  A  38  Q  39  A  40  Q  41  42  A  4 3 MR.  GOLDIE  44  45  46  47  1538  Yes.  All right.  Mr. Joseph, I want to ask you now about  Gisdaywa's territory and I understand that you spent  some of your early life on the territory; is that  right?  Yes.  And can you tell me -- can you tell his lordship  where you spent your early life on the territory and  with whom?  First where --  Yes.  My first recollection of any place that I have  been was out on the territory.  It was around  Biiwenii C'eek.  Biiwenii C'eek, my lord, is 138.  And what is  Biiwenii C'eek?  It is the mouth of Owen Creek which flows into the  Morice or Wet'sen Kwe.  And would you just tell us what those early  recollections are about who you were with and what  was happening at that time?  It was -- I spent most of my early years, first four  years, with my mother and father and they were out  on the territory most all the time.  And point that  I -- first thing that I remember is that my mother  went to get water.  I think it was ice on the river,  and she had a -- my baby brother, and she got her  water with the bucket and she said, well, come on,  let's go back to the house, and she started to leave  but I wouldn't move.  I wouldn't follow her and she  said, why aren't you coming home, and I said, no, I  won't, and she said, why aren't you going to come  home, and I said, no, the baby is still on the -- by  the water hole, and she started to laugh.  She was  just testing me to see what I would do, if I would  leave the baby, and that's one of the first things  that I remember.  But --  She was -- may I just -- she was getting water?  Yes.  And you mentioned ice.  Was this during the winter?  Winter, yes.  Did your mother and father spend most of the winter  months in the territory?  Yes.  Well, my lord, this obviously is of some importance  and my friend very properly has been leading and I  think that's all to the good, but I take it this is  of some importance how, where, when the territory is  used and I would ask him not to lead. 1539  1 THE COURT: Thank you.  2 MR. RUSH:  3 Q Thank you.  How many months of the year in those  4 early years did your mother and father and the  5 family spend on this Gisdaywa's territory?  6 A Well, I know that we -- at the time we used to --  7 next thing I recollect is that we were waiting for a  8 train and go back to Hagwilget.  9 Q When was that?  Do you remember the time?  10 A I don't -- I know it was in the summer that we go  11 home.  12 Q Do you recall what your family did when they were on  13 the territory?  14 A Mostly hunting and trapping and some fishing.  15 Q Were other members of your family there?  16 A Yes.  There was --  17 Q Who?  18 A -- my Grandfather.  19 Q And your Grandfather, are you referring to -- who  20 are you referring to?  21 A Joseph Nahloochs.  22 Q And who else?  23 A And my Uncle Thomas George and his family were also  24 up, spent their time around Owen Lake.  25 Q Owen Lake?  26 A Yes.  27 Q And that has a Wet'suwet'en name?  28 A Biiwenii, Biiwenii Ben.  29 Q All right.  Now, how much of your early life did you  30 spend on your territory that you recall?  31 A We were there -- sometimes I remember we went and by  32 wagon and other times just walking, but my father  33 died in 1931, and we never went back after that.  34 Q And when you say we never, what do you mean by we?  35 A My mother and brothers.  36 Q All right.  Did you go back yourself after 1931?  37 A Yes.  38 Q All right.  Just before we come to that, where did  39 you live after your father's passing on?  40 A I stayed at Hagwilget with my grandparents.  41 Q And which grandparents were they?  42 A Cecelia and Felix George.  43 Q And after your father's passing on, did you yourself  44 then go again to Biiwenii?  45 A Yes.  46 Q And can you just tell his lordship what you remember  47 about going out there again? 1  A  2  3  4  5  6  Q  7  8  9  A  10  11  Q  12  A  13  Q  14  A  15  Q  16  17  A  18  Q  19  A  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  Q  38  A  39  Q  40  41  A  42  Q  43  A  44  45  46  47  Q  1540  I went -- my aunt got a job from one of the ranchers  and, for as a housekeeper and cook, and that was  19 -- fall of 1936, and we went back out to Houston  by train from Hagwilget, Hazelton, and then we went  from Houston back to Biiwenii area by wagon.  Mr. Joseph, you mentioned Biiwenii C'eek as a place,  as a location.  What was at that location that you  remember?  On our way out, we had dinner with -- at a place  that we called C'el tay toostaan Kwe.  If you will just --  At the mouth of --  Is that the mouth of Houston Tommy Creek?  Yes.  My lord, that's 184.  Now, was that in the summer of  1936 or what --  In the fall.  -- what period?  Fall, fall.  Then we had -- we stayed -- we had  dinner with the people that were living there who  was Antoine Jimmy and his wife was one of the  Gitdumden people, and one thing -- one area that I  remember very well is that the previous winter to  1936, my Uncle Francis went out trapping and they  took a dog along that was like my dog -- it was his  dog but I spent more time with it than he did, and  he took this dog along and didn't bring it back.  And I asked him what he done with the dog he said, I  left it with Antoine Jimmy at C'el tay toostaan Kwe,  and said I could pick it up next winter.  When I  arrived at Antoine Jimmy's I said, where is the dog,  and he said, oh, it was somewhere around, but I  couldn't find it.  So I went -- after we had  something to eat, I went looking for it and found it  tied under a tree and that dog was really happy to  see me.  That was your dog, was it?  (Nod)  Were there other -- were there other people there  that you remember at that point?  Well, it -- all of Antoine Jimmy's family was there.  Who were those people?  Was -- I remember they have all passed on now.  Was  Suzie Jimmy and -- who later went on -- went to  residental school with me, and others that were  younger.  Now, can you tell his lordship what kind of building 1  2  3  A  4  Q  5  6  A  7  Q  8  9  10  A  11  12  13  14  15  Q  16  17  A  18  Q  19  A  20  Q  21  A  22  23  Q  24  A  25  Q  26  A  27  Q  28  29  30  31  A  32  33  Q  34  35  36  37  38  A  39  Q  40  A  41  Q  42  A  43  Q  44  A  45  Q  46  47  1541  was located at this place where Antoine Jimmy was  living?  It was a log cabin.  All right.  And you said that his wife was  Gitdumden?  Yes.  All right.  And what about on Gisdaywa's territory,  Biiwenii C'eek?  What was located there as a  structure?  There -- when my Grandfather's cabin was at Biiwenii  C'eek, and we went by there and went onto Biiwenii  Ben and went up to this ranch that my aunt was  supposed to work in, and the man's name was Charlie  Kelly.  Do you remember, was your Grandfather or any of your  uncles at Biiwenii C'eek?  Yes, my uncle was there.  And was there a cabin or a house of some kind?  Yes.  Can you tell his lordship what that was?  It was wood -- a cabin right at the outflow of Owen  Lake called Biiwenii Teez dlii.  Biiwenii?  Teez dlii.  Teez dlii?  Yes.  Now, do you remember, Mr. Joseph, if there were  other cabins or campsites on Gisdaywa's territory  other than the one that you have just now identified  at Biiwenii C'eek?  Well, they have overnight cabins at all of  boundaries, west boundary and the east boundary.  I am going to be referring you to that in a moment,  but before I come to that, do you remember in that  summer or that period 1936 if there were other of  your uncles who were passing through the territory  or who you saw at that time?  Well, Thomas and Andy were there.  Thomas George is this former Gisdaywa?  Yes.  He was trapping.  And Andy?  Andrew was with him.  And Andrew is his son?  Yes.  Now, did you meet any other people that year when  you left the territory?  Was there -- I want you to  think back to that time when you left the territory 1  2  3  A  4  Q  5  A  6  7  8  9  10  11  12  Q  13  14  A  15  Q  16  A  17  Q  18  19  A  20  21  Q  22  A  23  Q  24  25  A  26  27  Q  28  A  29  Q  30  A  31  32  Q  33  A  34  35  Q  36  37  A  38  Q  39  A  40  Q  41  A  42  Q  43  A  4 4 MR.  RUSH:  45 THE  COURT  46  4 7 MR.  RUSH:  1542  and if you met other people who were leaving the  territory at the same time?  Yes.  And who -- what was the circumstance there?  We -- we were going to leave this place, the ranch,  but then we -- Charlie Kelly decided to try out to  see how the road was so we went out -- went down the  road a ways and he found out that the snow was too  deep for a one-day trip so on our first trial run,  we met some people that were doing the same and they  were coming from Ghel Ben.  And that is 104, I believe, my lord.  That is a  lake, is it?  Yes.  And that's Pack or Park Lake?  Pack Lake.  Pack Lake is what it is.  Now, who was it that you  met?  The people that we met at that time were -- was  former Noostel.  The former Noostel?  Yes.  That's 188, my lord.  And who was that, do you  remember?  She was -- they used the territory around Ghel Ben,  and her husband was Gydogyet's son.  They were coming from Ghel Ben?  Yes.  And where were they going, do you know?  They were going back to Houston, and we travelled  with them back to Houston.  And how did you travel?  We travelled by sleigh and Gydogyet's or Noostel's  children were all with them.  And what did they have with them?  That's 116, my  lord.  They had all their furs that they trapped.  And where was it again that you met up with them?  At Owen Lake.  At Owen Lake?  Yes.  And that's Biiwenii Ben?  Yes.  That's 111.  We have to take an adjournment to change reporters  sometime, Mr. Rush.  Yes, my lord. 1543  1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  THE COURT  MR. RUSH:  Q  You pick the time.  Yes.  And Mr. Joseph, did you -- do you know the  territory of Noostel, the chief that you have  referred to?  Was -- they were coming from Ghel Ben which is in  Knedebeas area.  Can you say how many people were in their party, the  number of people you remember they were with?  The ones that I remember were the two boys Alex and  Sam and Sarah, who is --  Sarah?  Sarah.  She was Sarah Seymour at the time.  What's her name today?  She is Sarah Layton and she now holds the name of  Knedebeas?  Knedebeas?  Yes.  All the —  Anybody else?  All the younger sisters, I forgot their name.  All right.  Thank you, Mr. Joseph.  I think we can  take a break.  This is convenient.  Thank you.  THE REGISTRAR:  Order in court.  This court stands adjourned for  15 minutes.  (MORNING ADJOURNMENT AT 11:20 A.M.)  I hereby certify the foregoing to be  a true and accurate transcript of the  proceedings herein, transcribed to  the best of my skill and ability.  MR.  A  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  RUSH:  THE COURT:  TANNIS DEFOE, Official Reporter  United Reporting Service Ltd. 1544  1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36 (PROCEEDINGS RESUMED AT 11:35 A.M.)  37  38 THE REGISTRAR:  Order in court.  3 9 THE COURT:  Mr. Rush.  40 MR. RUSH:  Thank you.  41 Q    Mr. Joseph, after that time of your being on the  42 territory in 1936, what happened with respect to  43 your education after that?  44 A    Yes, I -- after my absence from school that fall I  45 was -- after Christmas I went back into a school and  46 I was told that I was -- may have to go to a  47 residential school. 1  Q  2  A  3  Q  4  A  5  Q  6  A  7  Q  8  A  9  Q  10  A  11  Q  12  A  13  Q  14  A  15  Q  16  17  18  A  19  20  21  Q  22  23  A  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  Q  33  A  34  35  Q  36  37  A  38  39  40  41  Q  42  A  43  44  Q  45  A  46  Q  47  1545  And did you go to residential school?  Yes.  How many years were you at the residential school?  I think I went in 1938 to 1943.  And where was this residential school?  It is a place called Lejac in Fraser Lake.  Lej ac?  Yes.  And is that L-e-j-a-c-q-u-e?  L-e-j-a-c.  And that's at Fraser Lake, is it?  Yes.  How old were you when you left Lejac?  16.  And can you tell his Lordship what impact there was,  if any, upon you of your attendance at the  residential school?  It's -- I learned a few things there, but it also  prevented me from learning some of the -- my culture  and traditions at home.  And what was it that you were prevented from  learning at home?  It's -- it happened just about the time that I was  really interested in what what was going on.  I went  on the territory for a while and come home.  And it  was just about the same time I lost my mother, so  that -- that's what got me into a residential  school.  But my grandmother really was teaching me  all the different things that we did and I was just  starting to enjoy the things that we were -- that  everyone did.  By "everyone" --  And I started doing things that I started to do and  that I had only seen happen up to then.  What -- can you about give us an example of the type  of thing you mean?  Well, I used to always be with someone when we went  hunting or setting snares or traps.  And I just  started to travel around home and then I had to  leave.  Was there any effect on your language?  Well, it did have an effect on my language because I  didn't pick up too much of my language after that.  Did you lose your language?  No.  And what was the main language that was spoken at  the school? 1  A  2  3  4  Q  5  A  6  Q  7  8  9  A  10  Q  11  12  A  13  14  15  16  17  Q  18  19  A  20  Q  21  22  A  23  Q  24  25  26  A  27  Q  28  29  A  30  Q  31  A  32  Q  33  34  A  35  Q  36  37  A  38  Q  39  A  40  Q  41  42  A  43  Q  44  45  A  46  Q  47  A  1546  English.  English while you were in school, but if  you were an altar boy or mostly an altar boy you  used another language to pray in mass.  What was that?  Was that Latin?  Yes.  Now, when you left the residential school, Mr.  Joseph.  Do you remember when it was that you next  went to Gisdaywa's territory?  It was 1946 when I went back on the territory again.  And do you remember what the circumstances were upon  your going back in '36?  Yes, we -- my uncle Leonard George, his son had to  go back out to Owen.  And they had a lot of supplies  to bring in and clothes, so Leonard's younger  brother William, I took them back out to Owen Lake  by wagon.  All right.  I just want to stop you there and ask  you -- Willy and Leonard and Andy are all brothers?  Yes.  And they are the children of Thomas George; is that  right?  Yes.  I asked you this because you made mention of another  Willie George when you were looking at the  genealogy?  Yes.  And is that -- Willie George was the brother to  Thomas?  Yes.  So there were two Willies?  Yes.  And the Willie you are talking about now, was he  about your age?  A bit younger than me.  All right.  So you took Leonard and Thomas into --  into the territory by wagon?  Yes.  And what were they going to do there?  They were going back out to trap.  And do you remember about what time of the year this  was?  November.  And what were you taking in with them?  What was in  the wagons that you were --  We took in their supplies for the winter.  All right.  And how long were you there?  We got there at the evening and left there the next 1  2  Q  3  4  A  5  Q  6  A  7  Q  8  A  9  Q  10  A  11  Q  12  A  13  Q  14  15  A  16  17  Q  18  A  19  Q  20  A  21  Q  22  A  23  24  Q  25  26  A  27  Q  28  A  2 9 MR.  RUSH:  30  31 THE  COURT:  32 MR.  RUSH:  33  Q  34  35  A  36  Q  37  A  38  Q  39  40  A  41  42 MR.  GOLDIE  43  44  45  46  47  1547  morning.  And where was it that they went to the point that  you dropped them off?  They went to Biiwenii Teezdlii.  Biiwenii Teezdlii?  Yes.  What was that Biiwenii Teezdlii?  Outflow of Owen Lake.  Outflow of Owen Lake into?  Or the headwaters of Owen Lake our Owen Creek.  It was where Owen Lake flowed into Owen Creek?  Yes, yes.  And did you -- what route did you travel, from what  point did you start?  We left Hubert.  The home of Thomas what they call  Dudii nai c'en'.  Dudii nai --  -- c'en'.  Is that another name for Hubert?  Yes, that's the name.  And by what route did you travel?  We he went up highway -- we camped at Barrett, west  of Houston.  Yes.  And then did you go into the territory from  there?  Yes.  And did you travel through Gisdaywa's territory?  Yes.  Dudii nai e'en', my lord, is 193.  That's the  Wet'suwet'en word for Hubert.  The number again is?  193.  Now, did you travel by Morice River Road on this  occasion?  Yes.  And did you go to Houston Tommy Creek?  Yes.  And did you travel through any other territories on  your way there?  Yes, we went through Houston Tommy Creek at a time  and that's the --  Excuse me, before you answer, Mr. Joseph.  My lord,  I am going to take an objection to the witness  speaking or describing of any point in any territory  other than that of his clan.  My understanding is  that, under certain circumstances, a Chief of a  House may speak in the Wet'suwet'en custom of the 1548  1 other houses of his clan, but beyond that it is my  2 understanding that he is not authorized to speak of  3 the territories of other Chiefs.  And I rely in that  4 regard on an affidavit that Mr. Joseph swore in  5 these proceedings when he said, and I quote:  6  7 "It is important under Wet'suwet'en law for  8 the hereditary Chiefs to speak on behalf of  9 their House members.  In certain  10 circumstances one hereditary Chief can  11 authorize another hereditary Chief to speak  12 on his or her behalf.  In these  13 circumstances there must be a relationship  14 between the two hereditary Chiefs which is  15 the foundation for one person to speak on  16 behalf of another."  17  18 And then that's paragraph 4 of this affidavit.  And  19 paragraph 13 he said:  20  21 "I am available, as are other Wet'suwet'en  22 Chiefs, to give evidence on an examination  23 for discovery which evidence would be  24 binding on the members of our house and in  25 certain circumstances on the members of our  26 clan."  27  28 Now, it's one thing for the witness to say:  I know  29 what the territory is, but it's another thing for  30 him to speak of the particular features which define  31 or lie within that territory.  And I take my  32 objection is firstly, there has been no  33 demonstration of authorization.  And secondly, there  34 has been no demonstration of the source of his  35 information.  36 And I am now speaking only with respect to the  37 territories lying outside that of his House and  38 outside that of the Houses of his clan because I am  39 assuming that he is authorized to speak on that  40 behalf.  It may be that my friend can lay a  41 foundation for any of his comments in some other  42 way, but at this point I wish to take that formal  43 objection.  44 THE COURT:  Well, Mr. Goldie, this question of witnesses being  45 authorized to speak and not being authorized to  46 speak is entirely foreign to the court's procedure.  47 When a witness takes the box he can speak, in my 1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  MR. GOLDIE:  THE COURT:  MR. GOLDIE:  THE COURT:  MR.  THE  GOLDIE:  COURT:  1549  view, on any matter within his personal knowledge or  within any exception to the hearsay rule and I don't  think that I can give effect to those subsidiary  questions of authorization.  That may very well be so.  And if your Lordship so  directs then I won't be hammered in  cross-examination by any such suggestion.  Well, my view is, as I have just stated, witnesses  in the box are expected to answer proper questions  put to them.  And I don't think that the domestic  rules, if I can call them that, by which witnesses  may govern their lives can -- can be given effect to  in the course of judicial proceedings in the same  way that witnesses of various religious persuasions  can't impose those regimes upon what they can say  and what they can't say.  The test is whether the question is relevant or  privileged and -- or some other exclusion that I  can't enumerate exhaustively.  But I think that this  witness is doing no more than describing a personal  experience and if he chooses to use landmarks known  to him, but which happen to fall within the claimed  territory of another House, that seems to me to be  completely by the by.  It doesn't impair his ability  to describe the event that he's been asked about in  whatever terms he chooses to use.  I don't think I  can give effect to your objection.  Well, as I have said a minute ago, my lord, I am  content with respect to that because it ensures that  I am not hammered in any cross-examination by a  claim that it is against Wet'suwet'en law to speak  and that's what was raised with respect to an  examination for discovery.  Well, I think I was faced with this same problem  when Mrs. McKenzie didn't want to produce a Feast  book.  And I was confronted with this problem quite  recently I think just yesterday by Mrs. Ryan and I  think that I have held consistently in each case  that the court cannot give effect to these, for want  of a better term and without any purgative intent,  these domestic rules.  That would apply in chief and  in cross-examination as I am presently advised.  There may be other objections that can be tendered  and I will deal with them as they arise.  As I have said, I am content. The reason I raised  it was that this is the first Wet'suwet'en witness.  Right. 1550  :  However, there remains one other consideration, my  lord, and that I asked my friend to establish the  source of the witness' knowledge with respect to  territories other than that of his clan.  Well, my view on that, Mr. Goldie, subject to what  Mr. Rush says, is that he has been merely using  these -- these claimed territories for descriptive  purposes.  I am not giving any legal effect to  the -- to the evidence that's presently being  adduced.  It's being adduced for the purpose of  describing a journey and it seems to me to be  nothing more nor less than that.  It may be that the  evidence will have some legal signification later.  But it doesn't a seem to me at the moment that that  is the purpose that it is being produced or for  which the evidence could be used.  But I will  certainly be glad to hear argument on it in due  course.  :  I say again, then, if the purpose is to identify  landmarks, I have no -- I can have no objection to  that.  But if there is any sense that the evidence  is being adduced for the purpose of proving the  territory of some other person, then my objection  stands.  Mr. Rush, I didn't need to hear from you to deal  with the specific objection that was raised, but if  you want to contribute then, of course, you are  entitled to do so.  Yes, well I do place some considerable significance  in the house and clan rules and laws regarding the  authorization to speak on behalf of another Chief.  This is not the issue here.  No, I don't think it is.  This issue is an issue that pertains to Mr. Joseph's  knowledge of points along a trail or a road.  Yes.  And his understanding of how far these geographic  points were at the trail -- along the trail line  and --  As he recalls them from his personal knowledge.  And it would be no different than Mr. Joseph  describing his trip from Smithers to Houston.  And  the point is it is within his knowledge as it is  within all of our knowledge and the significance of  this may, I think, become apparent.  I am, however,  content to do -- if my learned friend is concerned  47 about this, I am content to lead other evidence  1  MR.  GOLDIE  2  3  4  5  THE  COURT:  6  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  MR.  GOLDIE  20  21  22  23  24  25  THE  COURT:  26  27  28  29  MR.  RUSH:  30  31  32  33  THE  COURT:  34  MR.  RUSH:  35  36  THE  COURT:  37  MR.  RUSH:  38  39  40  THE  COURT:  41  MR.  RUSH:  42  43  44  45  46 1  2  3  THE  COURT  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  MR.  RUSH:  11  12  13  14  THE  COURT  15  MR.  RUSH:  16  17  THE  COURT  18  19  20  MR.  RUSH:  21  THE  COURT  22  23  MR.  RUSH:  24  Q  25  26  A  27  Q  28  29  30  A  31  Q  32  A  33  34  35  36  Q  37  A  38  Q  39  40  A  41  Q  42  A  43  Q  44  45  A  46  Q  47  A  1551  about authorization and, as well, about knowledge of  the territories in due course.  Well, I am not sure that I want to spend a lot of  time hearing witnesses tell me that they're  authorized to say this and they are not authorized  to say that.  When a witness goes in the box he  is -- for want of a better term, he is fair game for  both sides within the rules of admissibility and  relevance and personal knowledge.  Yes, I agree that is so, my lord, but I also point  out to your Lordship that in terms of the laws of  the clan and the Houses that the question of  authorization is important at that level as well.  Well, it may arise.  Yes, it is in issue here and I will lead evidence on  that in due course.  I will be glad to hear from you as you think it  important or useful to deal with the evidence at a  different level when the time arises.  Thank you.  The last note I have is that we went to Houston  Tommy Creek.  And Houston Tommy Creek, Mr. Joseph, the name in  Wet'suwet'en for Houston Tommy Creek is what?  C'el tay toostaan Kwe.  Now, that's 184.  And do you know where Houston --  do you know what territory Houston Tommy Creek is  located on?  It's on Gisdaywa' territory.  And how do you know that?  Because my grandfather and uncle have both used the  territory and talked about it.  And as we were  passing through my aunt told me that was part of our  territory.  And —  And uncle both.  And Gisdaywa -- your aunt that you are referring to  is?  Madeline.  Madeline.  In the first trip of 1936.  All right.  And from Houston Tommy Creek, how did  you travel down to Biiwenii c'eek?  We went by wagon and team of horses.  And do you remember the route that you followed?  We followed the trail that our people have used over 1  2  Q  3  A  4  Q  5  6  7  8  A  9  Q  10  11  A  12  13  Q  14  15  16  A  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  Q  27  28  29  A  30  31  32  Q  33  34  A  35  Q  36  A  37  Q  38  39  A  40  Q  41  42  A  43  Q  44  A  45  Q  46  A  47  1552  the years and we got to Biiwenii Kwe.  Biiwenii Kwe?  Yes.  Like the trail goes Biiwenii Kwe and up -- and from  Biiwenii Kwe to where you left your uncle Thomas and  your cousin Leonard, how did you get between those  two points?  We travelled by wagon all the way.  And was this a -- what kind of a -- was this a trail  or road or what kind of way was it?  This trail that they have always used, but it's been  widened for wagon travel.  All right.  And Mr. Joseph, what is your  understanding about how long the members of your  House and clan have used those trails?  They've always used the territory and the songs that  they sing about the area and the stories that they  told is always about Biiwenii c'eek.  And there is  different trails along the way and Biiwenii c'eek  and Biiwenii Kwe is an area where all the people  have used.  They have all -- they had to travel  through there when they were going out to the Morice  Lake which people going further on south to  Knedebeas' and Goohlaht's territory, all had to go  through that area.  And can you say how long it has been in your  House -- that this territory has belonged to your  House?  In -- our people say that it's been here as long as  they remember.  As long as the land was there, their  territory was there.  Did you pass through on your way to Biiwenii Ben.  Did you pass through the territory of another chief?  Yes.  Which territory was that?  That is Smogelgem's territory.  And was your aunt, was she in the House of  Smogelgem?  Yes.  I want to ask you if after 1946 you were into the --  you returned to Gisdaywa's territory?  Yes.  And when was that?  After 1946?  Yes.  In the years after '46?  Yes, I went back in again around 1950 on a hunting  trip. 1  Q  2  A  3  Q  4  A  5 THE  COURT  6 MR.  RUSH:  7 THE  COURT  8 MR.  RUSH:  9  Q  10  11  A  12  Q  13  14  A  15  16  17  18  Q  19  A  20  Q  21  22  A  23  Q  24  A  25  Q  26  27  A  28  Q  29  A  30  Q  31  32  A  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  Q  41  A  42  Q  43  A  44  Q  45  A  46  Q  47  1553  And who --  With another cousin of mine.  Do you remember who you were with then?  Peter Grey.  Peter?  Grey.  Thank you.  And do you recall where it was that you went and the  general area where you were hunting?  We went into Biiwenii c'eek.  138.  And how long were you there that occasion, do  you remember, Mr. Joseph?  Well, we just -- we spent a day in there.  He wanted  to also see the area that we are always talking  about.  And it was a hunting trip and he wanted to  see the area at the same time.  And did you show it to him?  Yes.  And at that period of time, were you working at  employment some place in and around Hagwilget?  Yes.  Was Hagwilget your home at that time?  Yes.  And Hagwilget is a village of the Wet'suwet'en  people?  Yes.  Where were you working, Mr. Joseph?  I worked in the bush logging and construction work.  And when after 1950 did you -- were you in the --  into the territory again in the fifties?  Well, my -- my uncle -- I knew that my uncle was  using the territory and his sons were using it.  And  I -- I was working, so I didn't -- I just --  whenever he comes visit us he always talks about the  territory and what he is doing, so there is no need  for us to go in while he is there and we are  working.  So I went back -- drove in again around  1967 to look at the area again.  And did you drive again in the area?  Yes.  And where did you go on this trip, do you remember?  We went up to Owen Lake.  That's Biiwenii Ben?  Biiwenii Ben.  And when you say "we", who is it that you went in  with? 1  A  2  Q  3  A  4  Q  5  6  A  7  Q  8  A  9  Q  10  A  11  Q  12  13  A  14  Q  15  A  16  17  18  Q  19  20  A  21  Q  22  23  A  24  Q  25  A  26  Q  27  28  29  30  A  31  Q  32  A  33  Q  34  Q  35  A  3 6 MR.  RUSH:  37  38 THE  COURT  39  4 0 MR.  RUSH:  41  Q  42  A  43  44  45 THE  COURT  46  A  47  1554  My wife.  And did you go with their family?  No, we just drove in.  And I had forgotten to ask you, Mr. Joseph, what is  your wife's name?  Helen.  And you have some children?  Yes.  And how many kids do you have?  Five.  All right.  And did you travel to any of the places  that you have mentioned already on this occasion?  Yes.  Where did you go?  We passed Biiwenii c'eek and saw where my  grandfather lived and down to -- back down to Owen  Lake and around the lake and then back home again.  All right.  Was your grandfather still living at  that time?  No.  And you were again into the territory at a later  time, were you?  Yes.  And when was that?  Around 1981, I believe it was.  All right.  And have you -- have you been to the --  maybe I will just ask you on that occasion, what did  you do?  What was the circumstances of your visit  then?  I went in with Leonard.  Is this Leonard George?  Yes.  And brought some elders along.  And the places that you went to on that occasion?  We went to Wedzen Ben, Morice Lake.  If you just give us a chance to find that on the  list.  That's 296, my lord.  It's down below the bottom of the plan, I take it,  is it?  Yes.  Did you travel through the territory?  Yes, we went to Morice Lake and back -- back through  McBride Lake and then back to -- to Tse mii  K ' eec'en.  To where?  I am sorry.  Tse mii K'eec'en, that's the west boundary of  Gisdaywa. 1  Q  2  A  3  Q  4  5  6  A  7  Q  8  A  9  Q  10  A  11  12  13  14  Q  15  A  16  Q  17  A  18  Q  19  20  A  21  MR.  RUSH:  22  THE  COURT  23  24  25  26  27  A  28  MR.  RUSH:  29  Q  30  A  31  Q  32  A  33  Q  34  A  35  Q  36  A  37  Q  38  A  39  MR.  RUSH:  40  41  42  43  THE  COURT  44  45  MR.  RUSH:  46  47  THE  COURT  1555  Is there an English name for that, Mr. Joseph?  No.  It's about seven miles west of Biiwenii Kwe.  We are going to try and find that in our list.  I am  sure it's there, Mr. Joseph.  Now, let me ask you,  this was in 1981, was it?  Yes.  And were you on your territory again following 1981?  Yes.  When was that?  I went in with -- I think it was '82.  And I went in  with Johnny David again.  And we were down to Ootsa  Lake and spent a day in there and back up to Owen  Lake again and camped there.  And where did you camp?  At the Biiwenii Teezd lii.  Biiwenii Teezd lii?  Yes.  Now, just before we move on, Mr. Joseph, the name  that you gave us a moment ago was Tse mii K'eec'en?  Tse mii K'eec'en, yes.  And that, my lord, was 113.  He said it was the west boundary of his territory.  I thought that yesterday I was told the west  boundary was -- it looks like C-h-i-s-s-i  s-e-t-t-e-s m-i-i or T-s-e m-i-i, is that something  different?  Tse mii K'eec'en.  Tse mii K'eec'en?  Yes.  What boundary is that located?  That's the west.  That's the west side?  Yes.  Are there other geographic point on the west?  That's Oonus Yex.  Oonus Yex?  Oonus Yex, yeah.  Now that, my lord, can be found on -- that can be  found on the west point at the point that you can  see on the map that the boundary line meets the  Morice River.  Yes, that's rather what I thought it was, although  that's not the same name, is it?  There is another name there, but I will -- and there  may have been reference yesterday to that as well.  Well — 1 MR.  RUSH:  2 THE  COURT  3  4  5 MR.  RUSH:  6  7 THE  COURT  8 MR.  RUSH:  9  Q  10  11  A  12  Q  13  14  A  15  Q  16  A  17  Q  18  A  19  Q  20  A  21  Q  22  23  24  25  26  A  27  28  29  Q  30  31  32  A  33  Q  34  A  35  Q  36  A  37  Q  38  39  40  A  41  Q  42  43  A  44  Q  45  A  46  Q  47  1556  There is another name at that same point.  At the very beginning of his evidence he gave us the  boundaries and -- well, I don't think it matters  now.  I think we are talking about the same thing.  I think we are talking about the same thing, but I  will try and determine that from our list.  All right.  So you camped in the territory in that year with --  when you were with Johnny David?  Yes.  And do you recall being on the territory again after  that were you there?  Yes.  Okay.  And what year or month was that later?  This year I went up there.  Okay.  And when were you there this year?  In May.  Okay.  Now, you took the name "Gisdaywa" in 1974?  Yes.  Mr. Joseph, apart from those occasions on which you  had returned to the territory after 1974, how were  you kept informed about the occurrences or  happenings on the territory and what was -- how the  territory was being used?  Well, Andrew George, Leonard George, Jimmy have  always been in the area.  And Andrew would tell me  what was happening in the territory.  And you learned about what was happening on the  territory from him and your other -- and those other  people you mentioned?  Yes.  The person that you mentioned Jimmy Joseph --  George.  Jimmy George?  Yes.  You made mention of a Jimmy earlier in your  testimony this morning who had passed on the  territory?  Yes.  And do you remember when that was?  Is this the same  person, I should ask first?  Yes.  And do you remember when it was that he passed on?  It wasn't too long ago.  All right.  Now, do you know the resource -- the  types of animal resources there are on the 1  2  A  3  Q  4  A  5  6 THE  COURT  7  A  8 MR.  RUSH:  9  A  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  Q  18  A  19  20  Q  21  A  22  Q  23  A  24  Q  25  A  26  Q  27  28  29  A  30  Q  31  32  33  A  34  Q  35  A  36  Q  37  A  38  Q  39  A  40  Q  41  A  42  Q  43  44  A  45  46  Q  47  A  1557  territory?  Yes.  What sorts of animals are common on your territory?  One that -- our main source is the fur like fisher,  marten and mink.  And --  I am sorry, what was the first one?  Fisher.  Fisher.  Marten, mink and lynx, fox.  And beaver is trapped  in the spring.  And beaver is used both for -- used  for its pelts and the meat.  But other larger  animals like moose, deer, bear is also are taken.  They are there used to be -- uncle and grandfather  said that there was lots of caribou in the area, but  after the railroad came through there was no more  caribou.  Have you ever seen caribou on the territory?  I have seen them in the western part of the Telkwa  range, but we saw only about six.  Have you ever seen them on your territory?  No.  Are there berries on your territory?  Yes.  And there are huckleberries and blueberries there?  Yes.  Are these resources from your territory, are they  used today by you and your family and other members  of your House?  Yes.  Okay.  And in respect of the berries, are these --  are these picked and have these been picked from  your territory?  Yes.  All right.  And what was done with these?  They are used at feasts.  Yes.  Especially huckleberries and blueberries.  And were they ever used for other purposes?  Yes.  For what?  Mostly trade with other nations.  And what was traded for?  What did they trade the  berries for?  If you traded with the -- the Nishga who we call  Oot'sinii.  I am sorry?  We call the Nishga Oot'sinii. 1  Q  2  A  3  Q  4  5  6  7  Q  8  A  9  Q  10  11  12  A  13  14  Q  15  16  17  A  18  19  20  Q  21  22  23  A  24  Q  25  A  26  27  Q  28  A  29  Q  30  A  31 MR.  RUSH:  32 MR.  STERRITT  33 MR.  RUSH:  34  Q  35  A  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  Q  43  A  44  45  Q  46  47  A  1558  Oot'sinii?  Oot'sinii, yes.  We traded with them, it's the oolichan grease and  dry oolichan.  And from the coast -- from the Prince  Rupert area we trade for seaweed, herring eggs and  abalone shells, dried clams.  And is this trade -- does this trade go on today?  Yes.  The -- I just want to ask you one or two questions  about what you've mentioned.  The abalone shells  which you trade for, what do you use those for?  They've been used for jewelry or inlay different  articles, carvings.  All right.  And the Oolicn grease that you have  mentioned, what is that traded for?  Excuse me, how  is that used today?  It's -- we use that as a food.  We use it for any  food even -- you can even mix it with berries, mix  it with any vegetable or meat.  And I understand there was a way in which the  berries were mixed with oolichan grease and produced  a certain kind of delicacy?  Yes.  And what was that?  It's the -- my grandmother used to pick these  berries that we call the Da'niih.  Da'niih?  Da'niih.  Da'niih?  Da'niih.  I think we have a spelling for that.  : 136.  13 6, my lord.  That is cooked in with the oolichan grease in the  fall after it's picked and then put away for the  winter.  And it's not -- it just stays there and  when you take it out in winter it's -- that's when  they use it in winter time.  When you take it out in  winter it is just white and the berries are still  red, but yet it seems to preserve it.  Yes.  And that's -- that's been used in the past as a  trade item for our people.  All right.  Mr. Joseph, you mentioned that your  grandmother picked and prepared these berries?  Yes. 1  Q  2  A  3  Q  4  5  6  A  7  8  9  10  11  12  Q  13  14  15  A  16  Q  17  A  18  19  Q  20  21  A  22  Q  23  A  24  Q  25  26  27  A  28  29  30  31  Q  32  33  A  34  Q  35  A  36  Q  37  A  38  Q  39  A  40  Q  41  A  42  43  44  Q  45  46  A  47  1559  Is that your grandmother Cecelisa?  Yes.  And are these berries picked today and are they  today prepared in the way that you have described in  order to make the Da'niih?  I haven't seen it lately.  But the areas that my  grandmother picked are all today subdivided and  towns are -- there are buildings on it and some  commercial building on that area so it's -- so if  one is going to pick those berries you have to go  quite a ways out.  Okay.  Is there -- is there a berry that is mixed  with oolichan grease and used today as a delicacy  that you have had?  Yes.  And what's that?  How is that prepared?  It's the saskatoon.  If it's dried it is mixed with  oolichan grease.  And what is it that you get as a result of the  mixture?  Well, it's sort of a raisin like.  And have you had that recently?  Not too often, no.  Okay.  Now, did you trade other -- were other  commodities traded from the Wet'suwet'en territories  and from goods obtained from Gisdaywa's territory?  Yes.  One is soap berries are one of the main  berries that are traded with the coast people.  And  it's made into a cake, dried or else again made  into -- dried like a raisin.  All right.  And you mentioned that there was moose  and deer?  Yes.  And bear on your territory?  Yes.  Were these ever traded?  Yes.  And have these been traded recently?  There again the main one is -- would be the hides.  Yes.  Moose skin and dear skin are still made in our  territory.  Are still being made into moccasins,  gloves and vests and coats.  Is there any -- any item of the woods or of the  trees that are traded?  Yes, there is a -- when you -- when you go to make  soap berries into a cake you have to go out and get 1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35 MR.  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  A  RUSH:  36  37  3 8 THE COURT:  3 9 REGISTRAR:  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  1560  the material to prepare that.  And it's -- there you  have to go out into the forest again with your  parents or grandparents and get the -- get the leaf  that you are going to use for your -- drying the  cake.  And that leaf is skunk cabbage.  And then you  have to tie all those things, all the berries when  it's -- when the cake is dried and roll it up.  It  has to be tied and you can't use anything else but  dried bark of a tree for the ties for the ties.  And  the fish is the same --  All right.  -- for the ties.  For the tie --  -- tying up the food.  I see.  And you were about to say something about  the fish?  Yeah, the fish is done the same way.  When you tie  up the fish it's always done with the bark, with the  alder bark we call Gg'eltaay.  Gg'eltaay?  Yes.  And, my lord, that word is found at 252.  Is there,  is there yellow cedar in your territory?  No.  Is yellow cedar something that is traded, to your  knowledge, by Wet'suwet'en people?  Yes.  They needed that for special carvings, so they  traded for those.  Now, what you have described, Mr. Joseph, trading  that you have done and that members of your family  and House have done.  Have these activities of  trading also been done by other Wet'suwet'en people  to your knowledge?  Yes.  My lord, I am going to move into another area and it  would be convenient for me to take the morning or  the afternoon break.  Yes, 2 o'clock.  Order in court.  (PROCEEDINGS ADJOURNED LUNCHEON BREAK)  I hereby certify the foregoing to be  true and accurate transcript of the  proceedings herein, transcribed to  the best of my skill and ability. 1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  1561  LISA REID, Official Reporter  United Reporting Service  (PROCEEDINGS RESUMED AT 2:00 AFTER A LUNCHEON ADJOURNMENT)  THE REGISTRAR:  Order in court.  Witness, I remind you you are  still under oath.  THE COURT:  Mr. Rush.  EXAMINATION IN CHIEF CONTINUED BY MR. RUSH:  Q    Yes.  Thank you, my lord.  Mr. Joseph, before the luncheon adjournment, I  asked you a number of questions about the use of  berries by the Wet'suwet'en people and I asked you  if you had recently had any of the berries that I  had referred you to, and I want to ask you if you  have had soap berries recently? 1  A  2  Q  3  A  4  Q  5  A  6  Q  7  8  A  9  10  Q  11  12  A  13  Q  14  A  15  Q  16  A  17  Q  18  A  19  Q  20  21  22  23  24  A  25  Q  26  27  A  28  Q  29  A  30  Q  31  32  33  34  A  35  Q  36  A  37  Q  38  39  A  40  Q  41  42  43  A  44  Q  45  A  46  Q  47  1562  Yes.  And what form did you have these soap berries?  Newly whipped.  And is that the way you had them?  Yes.  What was the circumstances around your having them  recently?  We had it at dinner at the tribal council office  across the street, supplied by Moricetown.  And have you had soap berries over the last years?  Is it common for you to have soap berries?  Yes.  Now, are these soap berries whipped with oolichans?  No.  They are separate, is it?  Yes.  That was my confusion, was it?  Yes.  I wonder if you -- just to make it comfortable for  you, do you want to move the mike a little closer to  you so you don't need to lean it over to you.  Before the luncheon adjournment, I asked you a  question about your Uncle Jimmy George?  Yes.  Having passed on in the territory, and you said that  occurred recently?  Yes.  Do you know the date that that occurred?  February 17th, 1987.  Now, Mr. Joseph, I want to ask you some words about  words that relate to territory, and the first I want  to ask you about is if there is in Wet'suwet'en a  word which means boundary?  Yes.  What is that word?  First one is ett wets'un.  That's 139.  And what's the literal translation of  that word, ett wets'un?  As far as that place.  All right.  And is there another word or expression  which is used when you refer to boundary in  Wet'suwet'en?  Ett ouniil iy'.  That's 14 0.  And what does that mean?  That is the sort of limit.  And when these words are used in Wet'suwet'en, how  are they used in showing a boundary?  I wonder if 1  2  3  4  A  5  Q  6  A  7  Q  8  9  A  10  Q  11  A  12  Q  13  A  14  Q  15  16  A  17  Q  18  19  20  A  21  Q  22  23  24  25  26  A  27  Q  28  29  30  A  31  Q  32  A  33  Q  34  35  36  37  A  38  39  Q  40  41  A  42  Q  43  A  44  45  Q  46  A  4 7 MR.  RUSH  1563  you could express it in English, if you can?  How  would you use these words in English to demonstrate  a boundary?  If there is a ridge, would be one of them.  And how would you say it?  They don't cross over that ridge.  All right.  Is there a Wet'suwet'en word which  refers to land or territory?  Yes.  And what's that?  Nu'yiin'.  That's 300.  And what literally does that mean?  That means our land.  Is that how you refer to for example Gisdaywa's  territory?  Yes.  Now, are there geographic features which are  referred to in the Wet'suwet'en language which  indicate boundaries?  Yes.  And I wonder if you could tell his lordship some of  the words which indicate boundaries in the  Wet'suwet'en language, and you a moment ago made  mention of a ridge and is there a word for example  for ridge?  A ridge or a small mountain or Kess.  141. Are there other Wet'suwet'en words which refer  to boundaries and I'd just like you to give these as  you can?  Creeks.  What's the word there?  Kwe.  142. And how, for example, would you make reference  to that in Wet'suwet'en?  What would you say if you  were referring to the boundary as a creek or a creek  as a boundary?  It would be, if it was a creek, it would be ett  wets'un.  Ett wets'un, that was 139.  And how would you use  the word creek in the statement?  Kwe is a creek.  And what would that translate as?  Kwe is a creek and major -- a river would be another  word, be K'e Kwe tai.  K'e Kwe tai?  K'e Kwe tai.  Okay. 1564  1 THE COURT:  149.  2 MR.  RUSH  3  Q  4  A  5  Q  6  A  7  Q  8  9  10  A  11  12  13  14  Q  15  16  17  18  A  19  Q  20  21  A  22  Q  23  A  24  Q  25  A  26  Q  27  28  A  29  Q  30  31  32  A  33  Q  34  35  A  36  37  Q  38  A  39  Q  40  41  42  43  44  45  A  46  A  4 7 MR.  RUSH  Yes.  What would be an example of a major river?  The Wet'sen Kwe.  That's 150, and that's the Morice River?  Morice and the Bulkley.  All right.  Perhaps now might be an appropriate  moment to tell his lordship why the Bulkley and the  Morice carry the same name in Wet'suwet'en?  The Morice flows out of Morice Lake and Morice Lake  is Wet'sen Ben in Wet'suwet'en and the Morice River  is Wet'sen Kwe, and that's the name we use all the  way to the Skeena is Wet'sen Kwe to us.  So the river is the river that flows -- the Morice  becomes the Bulkley because it is flowing and  carries the same name because it flows to the  Skeena?  Yes.  Now, you have made mention of the word Ben which I  understand to mean lake?  Yes.  Lake, yes.  Is this also another word indicating boundary?  Yes.  And are there other words?  For boundaries?  Yes.  Would you make reference to other geographic  points apart from the --  Yes, range of mountains.  Yes.  And does that have a Wet'suwet'en word or  expression?  What could you say the range of  mountains is?  Ta'taas tie.  That's 148, my lord.  What would be an example of a  range of mountains?  The range of mountains would be the Neelgii, range  is Neelgii.  Neelgii.  Neelgii?  Yes.  All right.  Let's just see if that -- I don't think  that's on our list.  Mr. Mitchell, I wonder if you  could give us -- while Mr. Mitchell is looking --  about to provide us with that spelling, is there  another example of a range of mountains that you can  think of?  The Morice Mountain is a boundary.  Just at that --  The Morice Mountain, Dzel Teel, is 215, my lord.  And 1  2  THE  TRANSK  3  MR.  RUSH:  4  Q  5  6  A  7  MR.  GOLDIE  8  THE  COURT:  9  MR.  RUSH:  10  Q  11  A  12  Q  13  14  15  A  16  17  Q  18  A  19  MR.  RUSH:  20  21  THE  VOICE:  22  MR.  RUSH:  23  Q  24  25  A  26  Q  27  28  A  29  Q  30  A  31  THE  VOICE:  32  MR.  RUSH:  33  Q  34  35  A  36  Q  37  38  A  39  Q  40  41  42  A  43  Q  44  A  45  46  47  Q  1565  Neelgii, Mr. Mitchell?  VTOR:  N-e-e-1-g-i-i.  Mr. Joseph, are there other geographic features  which indicate boundaries to the Wet'suwet'en?  Yes.  I have no objection to my friend leading on this.  Thank you.  You were about to say the one that you did remember?  The mountain?  I was just going to ask you if there was another  boundary point and you said yes, and you were about  to say it before the interjection?  Well, the boundary between Gisdaywa and Woos is Tse  Gheeweliiyh.  That's the boundary point, is that?  Yes, and it is Pimpernel Mountain.  I see.  I am going to come back to that in just a  moment.  Number 177.  Is the foot of the mountain a boundary point marker  as well?  Yes.  And what -- what is that translated in Wet'suwet'en  to mean?  The foot of -- foot of the mountain is dzel c'een'.  Dzel c'een'?  Yes.  145.  Now, there -- does a waterfall act as a boundary  point?  Yes.  And the name of a waterfall in Wet'suwet'en is Neen  lii?  Yes.  That's 153.  And is there an example that you know  of of a waterfall which represents a boundary point  to your knowledge?  Yes.  What's that?  That's the waterfall between Namox territory and the  boundary there is between Kanoots and Namox, is --  that area is Neen lii.  That's 153, my lord.  I am going to show you a 1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  A  11  MR.  GOLDIE  12  13  14  15  16  MR.  RUSH:  17  18  19  20  MR.  GOLDIE  21  MR.  RUSH:  22  23  MR.  GOLDIE  24  25  26  THE  COURT:  27  MR.  RUSH:  28  THE  COURT:  29  MR.  RUSH:  30  THE  COURT:  31  MR.  RUSH:  32  Q  33  34  35  A  36  Q  37  38  A  39  Q  40  A  41  Q  42  43  A  44  45  Q  46  47  A  1566  photograph, Mr. Joseph.  I wonder if -- could I have  the document book, please?  If you, my lord, would  turn to tabulation 8 in the document book.  Mr.  Joseph, I wonder if you'd just look at that  photograph and I'd ask you if you can identify what  that photograph represents, and I will ask you in a  moment to identify the individuals there, but do you  recognize that photograph and what's contained in  it?  Yes.  :  My lord, I wonder before my friend goes on if he  would be good enough to indicate the purpose for  which this is.  Is it to illustrate the definition  of a word or has it for its purpose the proof of a  boundary?  This evidence is to demonstrate that here is a  geographic reference point which Mr. Joseph  understands to be a boundary, that this is a  boundary as he knows it.  :  Of his territory, my lord?  No.  He's indicated it is not on his territory; it is  between Namox and Kanoots.  :  Well, if it is not his territory and if it is not a  house of his clan, then I think we should know what  the source of his information is.  Yes.  I think that's appropriate.  All right.  Presumably he learned it from some source.  Yes, he did.  That hasn't been identified.  Yes, all right.  Mr. Joseph, have you been to  this -- firstly, let me ask you this:  Can you  recognize what this is?  Yes.  That's depicted in photograph tabulation 86, and  what is this point as you can see it here?  It is a waterfall and boundary.  All right.  And have you been there?  Yes.  All right.  And who are the two people in the  photograph?  One of them is late George Naziel who was Madeek at  the time; the other is Peter Jim.  And does the late George Naziel, Madeek, he is from  the Gitdumden clan?  Yes. 1  Q  2  3  A  4  Q  5  6  A  7  Q  8  A  9  Q  10  A  11  Q  12  A  13  14  Q  15  A  16  Q  17  18  A  19  Q  20  21  A  22  Q  23  24  A  25  Q  26  A  27  Q  28  29  30  31  A  32  Q  33  A  34  Q  35  36  A  37  Q  38  39  A  40  Q  41  42  43  44  45  46  A  47  Q  1567  And did the late George Naziel sit close to you at  the Feast?  Yes.  And the other person who is in this photograph, is  he still living?  Yes.  And does he have a name that you know?  Yes.  And what is that?  I can't recall the name.  All right.  Because the names change and sometimes it is -- if  it is not your clan, it gets a little bit confusing.  And do you know what clan he is in?  Laksilyu.  And you indicated that the boundary was between  Kanoots and Namox?  Yes.  And who is the holder of Kanoots, the name of  Kanoots?  Peter Alfred.  And Peter Alfred, is he a member of the Gitdumden  clan?  Yes.  And does he sit close to you at the Feast?  He sits to the left of Madeek.  Now, can you tell me from whom you obtained the  information that this point as referred to in this  photograph represents the boundary between Namox and  Kanoots?  Kanoots is one that told me where the boundary was.  And did Madeek --  Yes.  And is this boundary mentioned in the Feast?  Has  this boundary been mentioned in the Feast?  Yes.  And have you been present when it's been referred to  in the Feast?  Yes.  All right.  The other thing that was raised earlier  today, Mr. Joseph, was concerning your authorization  to speak on behalf of Wet'suwet'en territories and  boundaries.  Do you have the authorization of the  Wet'suwet'en chiefs to speak on behalf of their  boundaries and in respect of their territories?  Yes.  And do you remember the date you received that 1  2  3  A  4  Q  5  A  6  MR.  GOLDIE  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  THE  COURT:  14  15  16  MR.  GOLDIE  17  18  19  THE  COURT:  20  21  22  23  24  25  MR.  RUSH:  26  27  28  29  30  THE  COURT:  31  32  MR.  RUSH:  33  THE  COURT:  34  35  36  37  MR.  GOLDIE  38  39  40  THE  COURT:  41  MR.  RUSH:  42  43  THE  COURT:  44  45  46  MR.  RUSH:  47  Q  1568  authorization to speak on their behalf in respect of  this case?  It was in 28 of May, I think it was.  Of this year?  Yes.  :  My lord, my objection to the evidence that has been  given is that it is not proof of the location of  that boundary.  It is an existing boundary.  It is  capable of being proven by living witnesses other  than this witness.  It is, in my submission,  admissible as proof of Mr. Joseph's belief that that  is where the boundary is but no more.  Well, I am not going to rule on that, Mr. Goldie.  The objection may be well-founded but other evidence  may make it unnecessary to make a ruling on that.  :  I fully appreciate that, my lord.  I simply wanted  to take the position that your lordship would have  in mind.  Alternatively, it may be admissible but subject to  some considerations of weight, maybe that there is  more evidence dealing with it at the moment.  It's  what's been told to him by two people, one deceased  and one still alive, and hardly amounts to evidence  of a representation.  My lord, I wanted it clear from -- as I understand my  learned friend that he wants the boundary point, a  definition point such as exists in this boundary  such as exists in this photograph or said to exist  by Mr. Joseph to be proved.  I don't think he wants you to prove it particularly.  I think he'd prefer you not to prove anything.  Yes.  I think that's right.  I think he merely wants to -- I take it to be, and I  shouldn't speak for anybody, he wanted to record an  objection that this as that stands, it doesn't prove  as much as you may later contend it proves.  :  I wish to simply state my position with respect to  where, in my submission, that evidence takes my  friend.  Yes.  Well, I may have a different view of that in due  course, but in any event, Mr. Joseph --  No.  I was just going to comment facetiously that  Arthur Donovan used to tell fighters in Madison  Square Gardens to protect themselves at all times.  That's true, and we will do our best to protect 1  2  3  4  5  A  6  Q  7  8  9  A  10  Q  11  A  12  Q  13  14  A  15  Q  16  A  17  Q  18  A  19  Q  20  21  A  22  Q  23  24  A  25  26  27  Q  28  A  29  Q  30  A  31  32 MR.  RUSH:  33 MR.  GOLDIE  34  35  3 6 MR.  RUSH:  37 THE  COURT:  3 8 MR.  RUSH:  39  Q  40  41  A  42  43  44  Q  45  A  46  Q  47  Q  1569  ourselves here.  Mr. Joseph, as your understanding  of this, what this photograph represents, is this an  example to you of a boundary marker which is known  as Neenlii?  Yes.  Mr. Joseph, were there other boundary markers that  the Wet'suwet'en referred to to identify points on  the territorial boundary?  Yes.  And what were they?  Like sometimes it's the beaver lodge.  All right.  And were there ever carvings or corner  carvings which indicated a border point?  Yes.  All right.  And were blazes used?  Yes.  And what's the Wet'suwet'en word for a blaze?  The hagel ts'el.  That's 154.  Mr. Joseph, were there words in the  Wet'suwet'en language which indicated direction?  Yes.  And what, for example, would be a directional word  in the Wet'suwet'en language?  From what I understand when people who are going  north on a trip, they would say Nuc', Nuc' is for  the north.  That would indicate the northern direction?  Yes.  That's 156, my lord.  And were there other words?  They -- it refer to going north-east from Hagwilget,  they referred to Babine as N'an.  That's 159.  I just want to make sure I got the right note.  The  meaning in English was towards the north-east from  Hagwilget to Babine?  That seems to be the evidence, yes.  Yes.  Are there other words in Wet'suwet'en meaning  direction?  Direction, yes.  It is where the -- if we refer  to -- to the people towards Vanderhoof or Burns  Lake, it is Nuu'.  Nuu' ?  Nuu' .  That's 158, my lord.  And does that refer to the east of -- 1  A  2  Q  3  A  4  Q  5  A  6  7  Q  8  A  9  Q  10  A  11 THE  COURT  12 MR.  RUSH:  13  14 THE  TRANS  15 THE  COURT  16 MR.  RUSH:  17  Q  18  19  A  20  Q  21  A  22  Q  23  24  A  25  Q  26  A  27  Q  28  29  30  A  31  32  Q  33  A  34  Q  35  36  37  A  38  Q  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  A  47  1570  Yes.  -- a point?  There is some other words to indicate east and west.  What's the word to indicate west?  If we are talking about Terrace or Prince Rupert, we  say Nde'.  I am sorry?  Nde' .  Yes?  That could mean down river.  :  I don't have a spelling for that.  No.  We don't have the spelling.  Maybe you could  give us a spelling, Mr. Mitchell.  LATOR:  N-d-e-'.  :  Thank you.  Is there a word that is used in Wet'suwet'en for  south or southerly or southward?  They refer to southerly as Naa sts'ai.  That's Naa sts'ai?  Naa sts'ai .  That's 160, my lord.  And is there a word in  Wet'suwet'en that refers to the headwaters?  Yes.  What is that?  Niss .  That's 155.  And how would that word be used if you  could say give us an example of how you might use  that word in English?  It's the people that use the territory towards the  headwaters are called Hoones too t'en.  Hoones too t'en?  Yes.  In Wet'suwet'en, the word meaning the people of --  is when you refer to the people, is that t'en or  Hoones too t'en?  T'en, yes.  T'en, all right.  We will just get a spelling on  that, my lord.  My question to you however was, if  you do make -- if you could give us an example how  you might use, in English, the word Niss when you  are referring to a particular headwaters.  Perhaps  you could pick an example of a headwater and what  would you say to me for example for that was the  direction of the headwaters?  That direction of the headwaters would be where --  where the Wet'sen Ben is coming from or Telkwa River 1  2  Q  3  4  A  5  Q  6  A  7  MR.  RUSH:  8  9  THE  TRANS  10  MR.  RUSH:  11  Q  12  13  14  A  15  Q  16  A  17  18  Q  19  20  A  21  Q  22  A  23  MR.  RUSH:  24  THE  COURT  25  MR.  RUSH:  26  Q  27  28  29  A  30  31  32  MR.  RUSH:  33  MR.  RUSH:  34  Q  35  A  36  Q  37  38  A  39  40  Q  41  42  43  44  45  A  46  47  Q  1571  is coming from.  So you would say in the direction of the headwaters  of the Morice Lake?  Yes, or --  Or the Telkwa Lake?  Yes, Telkwa River.  All right.  Yes, Mr.  us Hoones too t'en.  LATOR:  251.  Mitchell, you were going to give  A word in Wet'suwet'en for left hand, Mr. Joseph, on  the left side, how would you say that in  Wet'suwet'en?  As you are heading south?  Yes?  If you were going south and your left would be Saa  ha'iyh ts'ets'un.  That's 161.  And in the same vain, what would you  say if on your right hand?  Saa nee'iyh ts'ets'un.  Can you say that again?  Saa nee'iyh ts'ets'un.  Okay.  I believe that's 162.  Didn't sound like it.  It contains some of the same consonants but I --  perhaps I will have Mr. Mitchell spell that.  Maybe  you could say it again for us?  It means the sun is -- goes down but we say it like  Saa nee'iyh ts'ets'un, would be meaning the same  thing.  That seems to be what we are after.  Saa nee' --  Saa nee'iyh ts'ets'un, yes.  Now, is there a word in Wet'suwet'en meaning  straight ahead?  If you are telling the person to go straight ahead,  you say 1 k'on ya'.  That's 163.  Now, Mr. Joseph, when you are on the  territory, how do you know when you are there what  the boundaries of the territories or the territory  are?  What are those things that you look to to tell  you the boundaries?  You look for a ridge or small hill and those  features is small hill or mountain is Kess.  What other things do you look for? 1  A  2  Q  3  4  A  5  Q  6  7  A  8  Q  9  A  10  Q  11  12  A  13  Q  14  A  15  Q  16  A  17  Q  18  19  20  21  22  A  23  Q  24  25  A  26  Q  27  A  28  29  30  Q  31  A  32  33  Q  34  35  36  A  37  Q  38  A  39  40  41  Q  42  43  44  A  45  46  Q  47  1572  Creek, river, sometimes a trail.  Are there other features on the territory in  addition to those that you might identify?  Range of mountains.  All right.  You mentioned the word trail.  Is there  a Wet'suwet'en word for trail?  Yes.  What's that?  Tai.  That's 165, my lord.  And there are types of words  for different types of trails, are there?  Yes.  There is a sleigh trail?  Sleigh trail would be -- it is bigger.  Tai we c'oo.  166.  Is there a word for smaller trail?  It would be tai we yez.  That's 167, my lord.  And the features that you've  described as existing geographic points on a  territory to help you determine where boundaries  are, are these features that Wet'suwet'en people  look to in order to identify a boundary?  Yes.  And do most of the geographic features in  Wet'suwet'en territories have names in Wet'suwet'en?  Yes.  And are you able to say how old these names are?  Yes.  There is -- when they say the boundary of any  territory, they say it's been around as long as this  word, is the way they say it.  When you say they, who do you --  The elders that always talk of the territory and it  is mentioned at the feasts.  And are there words which you know of that are, if I  may use the expression, old words or words of long  antiquity in Wet'suwet'en?  Yes.  And what's an example of such a word?  All the features like mountains are old words,  lakes, rivers and any camps and villages where  people live.  And do these words appear to your knowledge in any  particular place?  Do they appear in at moments  where you would recognize them to be old?  They appear in songs; they appear in any stories  that people tell; and they appear in place, kungax.  Now, there is, I understand, a law against trespass;  is that right? 1573  1  A  2  Q  3  4  A  5  Q  6  A  7  Q  8  9  A  10  11  THE  COURT  12  13  MR.  RUSH:  14  THE  COURT  15  16  MR.  RUSH:  17  18  19  20  THE  COURT  21  MR.  RUSH:  22  Q  23  24  A  25  26  Q  27  28  29  A  30  MR.  RUSH:  31  32  33  34  THE  VOICE  35  A  36  37  MR.  RUSH:  38  Q  39  40  A  41  Q  42  43  44  A  45  Q  46  A  47  Q  Yes,  And this is an important law in the Wet'suwet'en  society?  Yes.  And are there words in Wet'suwet'en for trespass?  Yes.  And I wonder if you could tell his lordship what  some of these words are if you know them?  One of them is when a person sneaks onto another  chief's --  Well, Mr. Rush, these seem to be covered by 161 to  176, at least.  Yes.  Is it necessary for the witness to go through them  seriatim?  If you put them to him in a group --  Yes.  I am happy to do that.  I think it is  important -- I think what I would like to do is put  one of them to him and then I will lead him through  the rest.  All right.  These are important words.  You were just about to  complete your answer, Mr. Joseph?  On trespass is, one use another chief's territory  without his knowledge is 'oh nan nil liyh'.  That's 168.  Now, there is a word or phrase in --  meaning crossing on somebody's boundary, Wah tahts  tee yah?  Wah tahts tee yah.  That's 169.  I understand there is one expression,  you are stepping onto somebody else's land, lgguunii  yin'g'ee yah.  Victor, if you could help me with  that?  lgguunii yin'g'ee yah?  Yes, lgguunii yin'g'ee yah is stepping on someone  else's land.  And profiting from someone else's land is similar to  that?  Yes, lgguunii yin'wee'endzen.  Yes, and that's 171, my lord.  Trapping out of your  jurisdiction.  That's one that I can say Bee'wee  wets'en?  Bee'wee wets'en.  That's 172.  Am I right there?  Yes.  Stealing off the land? 1  A  2  Q  3  4  A  5  Q  6  7  8  A  9  Q  10  11  A  12  Q  13  A  14  Q  15  16  17  18  19  A  20  Q  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  A  35  Q  36  37  38  39  A  40  41  Q  42  43  A  44  Q  45  46  A  47  Q  1574  Yintah weenne dul tl'uk.  That's 173, my lord.  And he or she is using it  without anyone's knowledge?  I think it is the Denii neen duk'wee'endzen.  Yes, 174.  And hunting or trapping on someone's  territory without their knowledge and telling  anyone, Denii neen duk'oh c'ec'u'utah?  Yes, Denii neen duk'oh c'ec'u'utah.  175.  And then finally, sneaking on the territory  and using the land without permission?  Yin tah nee wun dene tai.  Yin tah nee wun dene tai?  Yin tah nee wun dene tai.  Yes, thank you.  That's 176, my lord.  These  expressions for trespass, Mr. Joseph, do they have  the same consequence in Wet'suwet'en, the same as  you have done in respect of the prohibition that's  implied against trespass?  Yes.  Now, my lord, I am going to ask the witness a number  of questions about Gisdaywa's territory and what I  intend to do is to have you refer to the map,  exhibit or tabulation 3 of the exhibit, and ask you  to look at, if you would please, for identification,  and I don't intend to have Mr. Joseph refer to the  map in front of him, and I am going to ask him some  questions and you may find it helpful to refer to  the map as I am asking him the questions.  Mr. Joseph, you told us about a number of the  features, points of territorial -- of territory in  Gisdaywa's territory and I wonder if you are able to  describe the boundary of Gisdaywa's territory?  Can  you do that?  Yes.  All right.  And I wonder if you could tell us if  there would be a reference point that you could help  us with again with the description of the boundary;  where would you start?  I think I started on the west -- seven miles west of  Biiwenii C'eek.  Biiwenii C'eek is the outflow of Owen Creek as it  meets Morice?  Yes.  All right.  So you say seven miles to the west of  that and --  Yes.  And what is the point of reference that is there? 1  A  2  3  Q  4  5  6  A  7  8  MR.  RUSH:  9  10  THE  COURT  11  MR.  RUSH:  12  A  13  MR.  RUSH:  14  15  16  THE  COURT  17  MR.  RUSH:  18  Q  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  A  27  28  Q  29  A  30  THE  COURT  31  MR.  RUSH:  32  Q  33  34  35  A  36  37  Q  38  A  39  Q  40  41  A  42  THE  TRANS  43  MR.  RUSH:  44  Q  45  46  A  47  Q  1575  There is a house -- home place their called Hoones  yex.  All right.  And is there a physical feature of that  point as well?  I think you made mention of this  already in your testimony.  Yes.  There is a hill on the north bank which is Tse  mii K'eec'en.  Tse mii K'eec'en, my lord.  That was referred to  yesterday as 113 and earlier today.  :  Well, is that Houston Tommy's Cabinsite?  No, my lord.  No, no.  Yes.  If you would place the northern indicator  facing upwards and Oonus Yex you will see it on the  west side.  :  Yes.  I have it.  And the point that has just been mentioned is above  the star, Oonus Yex, and you can see that by  reference to number 113.  Now, Mr. Joseph, could you take us around your  boundary and perhaps you can move from the westerly  point of it that you have just described to the  south and what would be the next geographic feature  that would --  Next mountain to the south of Oonus Yex would be Tse  Gheeweliiyh.  And is there an English name for Tse Gheeweliiyh?  Pimpernel Mountain.  :  177.  Yes, my lord, that's right. And what is the next  point that the boundary moves to as you go around  the boundary?  As you move to the south-east of that or south, and  there is Tsee Kaal Wediintaan.  What's that?  That's Poplar Mountain.  Now, on the map, you will see it indicated as Polar  Mountain.  It is Poplar Mountain, is it?  Yes.  LATOR:  2 92.  Mr. Joseph, the name of that mountain is Poplar as  in like a tree?  Yes.  And from that point, where does the boundary move? 1  A  2  3  4  MR.  RUSH:  5  THE  TRANS  6  A  7  MR.  RUSH:  8  Q  9  A  10  Q  11  A  12  THE  COURT  13  MR.  RUSH:  14  THE  TRANS  15  THE  COURT  16  THE  TRANS  17  THE  COURT  18  MR.  RUSH:  19  THE  COURT  20  MR.  RUSH:  21  Q  22  A  23  Q  24  25  26  A  27  28  Q  29  A  30  THE  COURT  31  MR.  RUSH:  32  Q  33  34  35  A  36  Q  37  A  38  MR.  RUSH:  39  40  41  THE  COURT  42  MR.  RUSH:  43  44  THE  COURT  45  MR.  RUSH:  46  Q  47  1576  It moves a place just south of Biiwenii Ben and it  is a place of where there is deadfall; they call  that Tsee coh c'oo.  Tsee coh c'oo.  LATOR:  Tsee coh c'oo?  (Nod)  Can you say that again?  Tsee coh c'oo.  All right.  And you say that's just to the --  South of Biiwenii Ben, and there you can --  :  I haven't found that.  I think it is -- if we can have the spelling of that.  LATOR:  T-s-e-e-c-o-h-c-'-o-o.  :  Can I have the spelling again?  LATOR:  T-s-e-e-c-o-h-c-'-o-o.  :  I don't see it on the map.  I don't either, my lord.  :  That's all right.  I will just say not marked.  All right.  You say that's to the south?  South of Biiwenii Ben.  Biiwenii Ben, all right.  It just may be our eyes.  We will try to find that.  Where is the next  geographic --  The next is range of mountain they call Dek'aay zii  yes .  Dek'aay zii yes?  Yes.  :  It is on the map, I think.  Yes, it is.  I am trying to find it on the --  D-e-k-'-a-a-y-z-i-i-y-e-s and what is that, Mr.  Joseph?  It is a ridge south of a lake.  Yes?  Tek'aay ts'en'aal is the lake.  Now, my lord there is between us a point just south  of Biiwenii Ben and the Dek'aay zii yes letters that  are written into the actual boundary.  :  Oh, yes.  I see it.  Which appear to be the name of the previous point  described by Mr. Joseph.  :  Yes, I see it.  Now, Mr. Joseph, where does the boundary move at  that point? 1  A  2  Q  3  A  4  Q  5  A  6  Q  7  A  8  Q  9  10  A  11  Q  12  13  A  14  15  Q  16  17  A  18  19  Q  20  A  21  Q  22  23  A  24  Q  25  A  26  Q  27  A  28  Q  29  A  3 0 MR.  RUSH:  31 THE  COURT  32 MR.  RUSH:  33  Q  34  35  A  36  37  Q  38  A  39  Q  40  41  42  A  43  44  Q  45  A  46  Q  47  A  1577  It moves up to Parrot Lake.  Yes?  Below Parrot Lake.  And Parrot Lake is --  Dek'aaz Tl'enlii.  Dek'aaz Tl'enlii?  Yes.  And that is 178, my lord.  Are there two Parrot  Lakes?  Yes.  And what's -- where does the boundary go in relation  to the two of them?  There is a small lake in between the two Parrot  Lakes.  All right.  And is the boundary -- is there a north  and a south of Parrot Lake?  There is one Parrot Lake in Smogelgem's territory  which is the Dek'aay teez dlii.  Dek'aay teez dlii?  Yes.  You can see that to the right of the M.  And there  is one Parrot Lake in Gisdaywa's territory?  Yes.  What's the next boundary point, Mr. Joseph?  There is a ridge north of the Tseniiyes.  Are you describing the ridge, the name of the ridge?  Yes.  And it is called Tseniiyes?  Yes.  That's 180, my lord.  Yes, and it is written in the boundary.  And do you recall any points between those two,  Parrot Lake and Tseniiyes?  There is another hill below Tseniiyes, Tsee Ggexw  C'en.  Tsee Ggexw C'en?  Yes.  That's 179, my lord.  Now, north of Tseniiyes, can  you tell us the movement of the boundary, Mr.  Joseph?  It goes west to a place they call Gguunyee t'aan  weediil taan.  I am sorry?  Gguunyee t'aan weediil taan.  Yes, 181.  And what is that place?  It is the ridge or high point. 1  Q  2  A  3  4  Q  5  A  6  Q  7  8  A  9  Q  10  A  11  Q  12  A  13  Q  14  A  15  Q  16  A  17  Q  18  A  19  Q  20  21  A  22  23  Q  24  A  25  Q  26  27  28  A  29  30  Q  31  32  A  33 MR.  RUSH:  34  35 THE  COURT  36  37 MR.  RUSH:  38 THE  REGIS1  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  1578  Okay.  And from there, where does the boundary move?  It goes west towards -- goes through Taniits c'ekeen  s'aay.  Taniits c'ekeen s'aay?  Yes.  And that's 182, my lord.  What does that mean, that  is, what territory you know to be on the ground?  It is the boundary between Kanoots and Dzel Teel.  And from there, where does the boundary go?  It goes towards -- it takes in Dzel Teel.  That's Morice Mountain, 183?  Yes, south.  It takes in the south slope?  Yes, Dzel Teel Tai.  Dzel Teel Tai —  Is a trail.  -- is a trail, is it?  Yes.  There is a trail indicated on the map now, Mr.  Joseph.  Where then does the boundary go?  It goes towards the -- crosses the Wet'sen Kwe and  up the --  That's the Morice River at that point, is it?  Yes.  At the point that it crosses the Wet'sen Kwe, is  there a particular geographic point at the -- or  settlement at that crossing?  It border -- crosses where C'el tay toostaan Kwe  comes into the Wet'sen -- Houston Tommy Creek.  Yes.  What you have just described is Houston Tommy  Creek?  Yes.  We have had that referred to, my lord.  It is 184.  Now --  Having reached that important centre, could we take  the afternoon adjournment?  Yes.  RAR:  Order in court.  This court stands adjourned for  15 minutes.  (AFTERNOON ADJOURNMENT AT 2:57 P.M.)  I hereby certify the foregoing to be  a true and accurate transcript of the  proceedings herein, transcribed to  the best of my skill and ability. 1579  TANNIS DEFOE, Official Reporter  United Reporting Service Ltd.  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  (PROCEEDINGS RESUMED AT 3:15 p.m.)  THE REGISTAR:  Order in court.  THE COURT:  MR. RUSH:  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  Mr. Rush.  Mr. Joseph, you have told us the boundary crossed  the Morice at the point where Houston Tommy Creek  met the Morice?  Yes.  Was there a settlement or a habitation of some kind  there?  That's where Antoine Jimmy had his cabin, at the  mouth of C'el tay toostaan Kwe, Houston Tommy Creek.  And that's the cabin that you made reference to --  Yes.  -- earlier in your testimony? 1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10 MR.  11 THE  12 MR.  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  3 0 MR.  31 THE  32 MR.  33 THE  34 MR.  35 MR.  36 THE  37 MR.  38  39  40  41  42 THE  43  44  4 5 MR.  46  47  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  RUSH:  COURT  RUSH:  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  RUSH  COURT  RUSH:  COURT  RUSH:  GOLDI  TRANS  RUSH:  Q  A  Q  COURT:  Yes  And wh  crosse  It fol  And wh  in?  It goe  And wh  Seseli  And Se  185?  1580  ere is the -- does the boundary go after it  s the Morice River?  lows the valley of C'el tay toostan Kwe.  ere does it go, what direction does it move  s sort of a north, northwest towards the peak.  at's the peak that it goes to?  i t'oogh.  selii t'oogh --  RUSH:  Yes, my lord.  What is that exactly, what is that  peak?  It's a mountain -- the headwaters of C'el tay  toostaan Kwe.  That's Houston Tommy Creek?  Yes.  184.  And at that point what happens to the  boundary, which direction does it move in?  It moves south down towards Taniits tsezel on  the  ridge  And does it move along, what's the name of that?  Taniits tsezel.  That's 186.  And what is Taniits tsezel?  That's a ridge boundary.  All right.  And what does it move to?  It moves back down towards Tse mii K'eec'en and  crosses the We'sen Kwe.  And Tse mii K'eec'en, my lord, 113.  :  Is it marked?  Yes, it is.  It's back at -- it's approximately to -  :  113?  Yes.  E:  Rock berries?  LATOR:  Yes.  Mr. Joseph, does that complete the boundary in its  full dimensions?  Yes.  All right.  Now --  Well, I am sorry, Mr. Rush,  this creek T-s-e apostrophe  a long way from the point of commencement.  No, if you look at the point of commencement which  is the star.  Hoonus yex there is on the map what  appears to be Cenegget Tsee'mii Kee C'en.  Do you  I thought we -- 113 was  e-e-n-k- a-a-y which is 1  2  3  4  THE  COURT  5  6  7  8  9  MR.  RUSH:  10  11  Q  12  A  13  Q  14  A  15  Q  16  A  17  18  Q  19  20  A  21  Q  22  23  A  24  Q  25  A  26  Q  27  A  28  Q  29  30  A  31  Q  32  A  33  Q  34  35  36  A  37  Q  38  39  A  40  THE  COURT  41  42  MR.  RUSH:  43  THE  COURT  44  MR.  RUSH:  45  46  THE  COURT  47  MR.  RUSH:  1581  see that, my lord, it's the -- there are two names  to the left of Hoonus yex and it's the second --  it's the lower of the two.  Well, I am away over here.  I followed the ridge  from the peak down where you cross the stream which  is marked T-s-e-n-k-a-ay and that's really as far as  I think the witness has taken us, if I am talking  about the same.  If that's is 113.  Well, I am going to take the witness back to the  ridge.  Mr. Joseph, Taniits tsezel?  Taniits tsezel.  Taniits tsezel, that you've indicated is a ridge?  Yes.  And the ridge moves in what direction?  It moves straight down to Tse mii K'eec'en which is  a small ridge itself.  And is it the -- how long is that boundary, can you  estimate the length of that?  It's seven or eight miles.  All right.  And the point at which it meets the  Morice River?  It's right at Tse mii K'eec'en.  And is Tse mii K'eec'en --  Yes.  -- is that at the point of Morice River?  Yes.  And that's where the small hill is that you have  mentioned?  Yes.  -- where there is also a ridge; is that correct?  Yes.  So would I be correct in saying that the westerly  boundary of Gisdaywa's territory moves between  Tseelet t'aat and Tse mii K'eec'en  Yes.  And between the two is what you've referred to as  the ridge?  Tse mii K'eec'en.  All right.  Well, then, I still have to rationalize  number 113.  113.  And this is --  Rock berries.  Mr. Joseph, Tse mii K'eec'en, is there a literal  translation for that?  No, I am all right.  That's right at Oonus Yex?  That's right. 1582  1 THE COURT: Okay.  That's 113.  2 MR. RUSH:  3 Q Is there a literal translation for that?  4 A Yes, Tse mii is berries that grow on rocks and  5 that's what its named.  6 Q And is that the name of the mountain?  7 A Yes.  8 Q That you have made reference to?  9 A Yes.  10 Q All right.  Now, I think you have already acquainted  11 us with some of the other geographic reference  12 points in Gisdaywa's territory.  But I wonder if you  13 can tell his Lordship some of the other reference  14 points that are within the boundaries of the  15 territory and which are, if you will, major  16 references -- reference points.  17 A Within —  18 Q Inside of Gisdaywa's territory.  19 A One of the main ones would be -- it's the Nee diin  20 'aay?  21 A Yes.  22 Q And what is that in English?  Is there an English  23 equivalent to that?  24 A Nadina Mountain.  25 Q It's known as Nadina Mountain?  26 A Yes.  27 Q And what portion of the territory is that located  28 in?  29 A That is south of Bewenii Ben.  30 Q South of —  31 A Biiwenii Ben.  32 MR. STERRITT:  291.  33 THE COURT: 291?  34 MR. RUSH: 291.  35 THE COURT: I found it.  3 6 MR. RUSH:  37 Q And that is called Nadina?  38 A Yes.  39 Q And are there other points of reference like Nadina  40 Mountain on the territory that you can refer us to?  41 A There is a creek T'eez lii Kwe which is Peter Allen  42 Creek.  43 Q T'eez lii Kwe?  44 A T'eez lii Kwe.  45 Q Where is that located, Mr. Joseph?  46 A That's south of -- it flows out of Tsee Kaal  47 Wediintaan. 1 Q  2 A  3 Q  4  5 A  6 Q  7 A  8 THE COURT:  9 THE COURT:  10 MR. RUSH:  11 Q  12  13        A  14  15 Q  16 A  17 Q  18 A  19 Q  20 A  21 Q  22  23  24        Q  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32 MR.  33 MR.  34 MR.  35 THE  3 6 MR.  37  3 8 THE COURT:  39  40  41 MR.  A  Q  A  Q  A  RUSH:  STERRITT  RUSH:  COURT:  RUSH:  1583  It flows out of which lake?  It's a mountain, Popular Mountain.  Oh, I see.  And is it called T'eez lii Kwe, is that  what you said?  T'eez lii Kwe.  And it flows out of Popular Mountain?  Yes.  My lord, you can see that in the south.  Yes.  Anything else, Mr. Joseph, that you can recall, that  is that you haven't told us about already?  Tsee let dzel Mountain.  Tsee let dzel is south of  Biiwenii c'eek.  Again the name of that?  Tsee let dzel.  Tsee let dzel?  Yes.  And that is south of Bewenii Kwe?  Yes.  Yes, my lord, you can see that directly south of the  words Biiwenii c'eek.  That's T-s-e-e 1-e-t, new  word, d-z-e-1.  And Mr. Joseph, you made mention of the Parrott  Lakes?  Yes.  And is there a name for the North Parrott Lake which  you --  North is Dek 'aaz Tl'enlii.  Dek 'aaz Tl'enlii?  Dek 'aaz Tl'enlii.  That's on the right side, my lord.  178.  42  43  44  45  46  47  RUSH:  Q  A  Q  That's 178, my lord.  That's the other Parrott Lake?  Yes, that's the -- North Parrott Lake is in the  boundary.  I can't read my writing if I marked it 178 or 121.  I marked one of them, I think it's 178.  I think we  already did that.  Yes, all right.  Mr. Joseph, you've mentioned I think at least two  places where people have cabins, one of them was  Houston Tommy Cabin Site and the other was Biiwenii  c'eek?  Yes.  And to your recollection when your relatives and 1  2  3  4  A  5  6  Q  7  A  8  Q  9  10 THE  COURT  11 MR.  RUSH:  12  Q  13  14  A  15  Q  16  A  17  Q  18  A  19  Q  20  A  21  Q  22  23  24  A  25  26  Q  27  28  A  29  Q  30  31  A  32  33  Q  34  A  35  Q  36  37  A  38  Q  39  40  A  41  Q  42  A  4 3 MR.  RUSH:  44 THE  COURT  4 5 MR.  RUSH:  46  Q  47  1584  your family -- members of your House were on the  territory, were there other places other than those  two where they have cabins on the territory?  They had a cabin on north of Parrott Lake and  it's -- I think it's Xeet yex.  Xeet yex?  Xeet yex.  There is an indication of that at the north end of  Parrott Lake, my lord, it's spelled X-e-e Y-e-x.  Yes.  And was that a -- was that a cabin site or a  campsight?  It's a —  What type of site was it?  It is a cabin site.  Okay.  And --  Winter cabin, that's what it translates.  Is that how it translates?  Yes.  And do you know if there were any trails in that  area that connected two points that we might have a  reference for that you know about on your territory?  There was a trail from Parrott Lake to Owen Lake.  I  don't remember the name of that now.  Was there a cabin or camp or settlement site of some  kind at the outflow of Biiwenii Ben or Owen Lake?  Yes.  And I am not sure if you mentioned this in your  testimony, but is there a name for that?  That is where my grandfather and his family lived.  And —  And -- yes?  They called it Felix George Reserve.  That's the name that -- that carries a name like  that now?  Yes.  And did that, is there a Wet'suwet'en name for that,  do you know?  All I know is that it's at Biiwenii teez dlii.  At Biwenii teez dlii?  Yes.  And your Lordship can see that?  Yes.  Is that a point -- is that the point at which the  trail from Parrott Lake ended or began? 1585  1 A    Yes.  2 Q    All right.  And I -- Mr. George, you mentioned in  3 your testimony earlier that you had -- excuse me,  4 Mr. Joseph, you mentioned in your testimony earlier  5 a trail that moved or a road that took a wagon that  6 went along the Morice River, do you remember saying  7 that?  8 A    Yes.  9 Q    I think it was on that occasion in 1946 that you  10 said that you came into the territory.  And was  11 there a trail that moved to Biiwenii c'eek along the  12 Morice River?  13 A    Yes.  14 Q    And did that come from the north?  15 A    Yes.  16 Q    Did that move from Houston Tommy Cabin to Biiwenii  17 c'eek?  18 A    Yes.  19 Q    And was there a trail that went westward?  20 A    Yes, from Biiwenii c'eek.  21 Q    And was there a trail, to your recollection, that  22 went down to Biiwenii Teez dlii?  23 A    Yes.  24 Q    Mr. Joseph, do you know the Wet'suwet'en Chiefs  25 territories that are on the boundaries of Gisdaway's  26 territory?  27 A    Yes.  28 Q    All right.  Perhaps before I ask you that, can I ask  29 you this.  You have told us of many place names and  30 geographic points in Gisdaywa's territory.  Can you  31 tell his Lordship how you know all of these names?  32 Who did you learn them from?  33 A    The names that I knew all along were told to me by  34 my parents and grandparents and uncles.  And  35 travelling within the territory we were always told  36 where to stop in case we were up ahead and someone  37 is behind you so that you don't just keep going.  38 There is always -- you are always told if you are  39 going to pick up something in a certain place, so  40 that's why you have to learn all the names of  41 places.  42 Q    You were told the names of these places?  43 A    Yes.  44 Q    And Thomas George, was he the former Gisdaywa?  45 A    Yes.  46 Q    Was he one of those uncles that told you?  47 A    Yes. 1586  1 Q    And what about your aunt, Mary George?  2 A    Yes, she told me of different territories.  3 Q    All right.  And did she also tell you about names  4 and places in your own territory?  5 A    Yes.  6 Q    Were these names and the geographic points mentioned  7 at the Feast?  8 A    Yes.  9 Q    And were these mentioned at Feasts where you  10 attended?  11 A    Yes.  12 Q    Were these mentioned by Chiefs of your House and  13 other Chiefs of your clan?  14 A    Yes.  15 Q    Now, in the same way did you obtain knowledge about  16 the territories that were on the boundary of  17 Gisdaywa?  18 A    Yes.  19 Q    And can you tell us which Chiefs and how -- and  20 their Houses have territories on the boundaries of  21 Gisdaywa.  And perhaps you can start at the same  22 point that you told us about earlier at Oonus Yex.  23 A    West at Oonus Yex the western boundary is a -- is  24 a -- belongs to Gitdumden.  And Gitdumden Chief is  25 Woos and Gologyet who -- Woos held both names,  26 Gyologyet first and then took over Woos.  So his  27 territory was west of Oonus Yex.  And the south of  28 Tsee Kaal Wadiintaan, south of Biiwenii Ben is  2 9 Knedebeas.  30 Q    South of Bewenii Ben and what was the other?  31 A    Tsee Kaal Wadiintaan.  32 THE TRANSLATOR:  Tsee Kaal Wadiintaan?  33 MR. RUSH:  34 Q    Tsee Kaal Wadiintaan, that's Popular Mountain?  35 A    Yes.  36 Q    And what territory was that?  37 A    Knedebeas' territory.  38 Q    And was there a Chief in Knedebeas' House that used  39 that territory, to your knowledge?  40 A    Noostel.  41 Q    Now, you made reference earlier in your testimony to  42 Noostel and to Knedebeas.  I think you indicated  43 that there were Chiefs coming from the territory  44 that met you at Antoine's cabin?  45 A    No, met me at Bewenii.  46 Q    At Bewenii, excuse me, that's right.  And you said  47 they were coming from Pack Lake? 1  A  2  Q  3  4  A  5  Q  6  A  7  Q  8  A  9  Q  10  11  12  A  13  14  15  16  Q  17  A  18  Q  19  A  20  MR.  RUSH:  21  THE  COURT  22  MR.  RUSH:  23  Q  24  25  A  26  27  Q  28  29  A  30  Q  31  32  A  33  Q  34  35  A  36  Q  37  A  38  39  40  Q  41  A  42  MR.  RUSH:  43  THE  COURT  44  MR.  RUSH:  45  46  47  Q  1587  Yes.  And Pack Lake I think you said in Noostal's  territory?  Yes.  And which direction is that from --  That is east of Bewenii.  East of Bewenii?  Yes.  All right.  Now, what is the other -- what other  territories after Knedebeas Noostel are there on the  boundaries of Gisdaywa?  Around right at Parrott Lake, the two Parrott Lakes  which divides -- is right at the boundary is 'Tsee  gil Yiis and 'Tseegil Yiis south.  The other Parrott  Lake is in Smolgelgem's territory.  'Tseegil Yiis is Parrott Lake south?  Yes.  Is that the southern part of Parrott Lake?  Yes, that's in Smolgelgem's territory.  And, my lord, you can see that name to the right.  Yes, I see it.  And from there, Mr. Joseph, what is the next of  the —  That would be to the north of Gisdaywa which is  Kanoots and Madeek's territory.  And is this the territory that you made reference to  earlier when you referred to Neen lii?  Yes.  That was a point on that territorial boundary, was  it?  Yes.  All right.  And then from Madeek Kanoots, what is  the next territory that you --  It crossed the Wah tah keg'ht.  The Morice river?  The Morice.  You again run into Madeek's territory.  And after you leave Madeek you run into Gyologyet  territory.  And that is Gyologyet's?  Yes.  My lord, that Gyologyets is --  I see it on the map.  I just wish to refer you to the fact that that is 69  on the Plaintiff's list.  It may be a name we  haven't made reference to before.  And from there, Mr. Joseph, you indicated that I 1  2  3  A  4  Q  5  6  7  8 THE  COURT  9 MR.  RUSH:  10  Q  11  A  12  13  Q  14  15  A  16  Q  17  A  18  Q  19  20  21  A  22  23  24  25  Q  26  27  28  A  29  Q  30  31  32  A  33  34  35  Q  36  37  A  38  Q  39  A  40  Q  41  A  42  Q  43  A  44  Q  45  46  47  1588  think was in which direction from Gisdaywa's  territory?  North.  And from there, what's the next point or territorial  point that you know?  Perhaps I have misstated the  question.  It should be what other territory flows  next in line?  Proceeding counter clockwise.  Yes.  I think the -- west of Seselii T'oogh again is Wah  tah kwets'.  Seselii T'oogh is at the northern point, my lord.  Is there a territory south of that?  South of Wah tah kwets.  Yes.  Back to Knedebeas' territory.  These territories that you have described, Mr.  Joseph, have you heard these talked about in the  Feast?  Yes.  Whenever you are invited to a Feast given by  Gisdaywa clans, they always mention these  territories that they get their furs and meats from  or berries.  And these territories that you have described, are  these territories which you have been to?  In fact,  have you travelled to these places?  Yes.  Have you been to all of the ones that you have  mentioned here?  Is there any one you haven't been  to?  I haven't been to Knedebeas in the north, north side  of Xeet Yex, but I have been on the western part of  it.  You are saying you haven't been to the northwest  side of it?  Yes.  Or are you saying you haven't been to --  The northwest side.  But the other part of Knedebeas you've been to?  Yes.  And that's the western part of it?  Yes.  The other territories -- I don't expect that you  have covered every foot of those territories, Mr.  Joseph, but have you been to all of the territories  that you have mentioned here? 1589  1  A  2  THE  COURT  3  MR.  RUSH:  4  THE  COURT  5  MR.  RUSH:  6  Q  7  8  A  9  Q  10  11  12  A  13  Q  14  15  THE  COURT  16  MR.  RUSH:  17  Q  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  A  26  27  28  29  Q  30  31  A  32  Q  33  34  35  36  A  37  Q  38  39  A  40  Q  41  42  43  A  44  Q  45  THE  COURT  46  47  MR.  RUSH:  Yes,  Well, I am sorry, but I don't see a north Knedebeas.  No, I understood --  I see one to the south and I see one to the west.  Just to clear up your answer, Mr. Joseph, there are  two Knedebeas territories which you made mention of?  Yes.  When you took us around the boundary of your  territory, there is a boundary to the west of Oonus  Yex and north of the Morice River?  Yes.  And there is also a boundary of Knedebeas Noostel  which is south of --  Parrott Lake.  -- Tsee Kaal Wadiintaan, which is Popular Mountain,  in the south -- in the southwest.   And I guess his  Lordship is wanting to know whether or not you have  been to both of these boundaries -- or when you say  that you weren't to the northern portion, whether  that meant a portion of one boundary or was that  intended to mean the boundary to the north of the  Morice?  I was talking about north of Oonus Yex because the  road is on the south side of T'azdlii Kwe, so I  haven't been across the river at that point.  It's  the north of -- or west of T'azdlii Kwe.  But you have been in the boundary territory of  Knedebeas in the south?  Yes.  Yes, all right.  Mr. Joseph, you made mention of  Smogelgem and I think you indicated earlier that  Mary George who held the name of Tsaibesa was in the  House of Smogelgem; is that right?  Yes.  And would she have right to the use of Smogelgem's  territory?  Yes.  And that is the territory that you've described as  being to the -- I think you mentioned it as being to  the west of Parrott Lake; is that right?  To the south.  South.  Well, not by this map.  It would be east, east of  Parrott Lake.  Let me get it straight. 1  Q  2  3  A  4  Q  5  6  A  7  8  9  Q  10  A  11  Q  12  13  A  14  Q  15  16  A  17  Q  18  19 MR.  GOLDIE  2 0 MR.  RUSH:  21 MR.  GOLDIE  22  A  23  24  25  26  27  2 8 MR.  RUSH:  29  Q  30  31  32  A  33  Q  34  35  A  36  Q  37  A  38  Q  39  40  A  41  Q  42  43  A  44  Q  45  46  47  A  1590  In relation to Parrott Lake you had Smogelgem's  territory?  Yes.  You indicated south and his Lordship indicated east.  Can you just place it in your mind's eye?  Well, to me wherever the water was flowing, like it  was flowing south means Tsaa C'elyiiz could be  southeast of Dek 'aaz Tl'enlii.  Dek 'aaz Tl'enlii which is Parrott Lake?  Yes.  Yes, I think that helps us there, my lord.  Mr.  Joseph, who holds the name of Smogelgem today?  Leonard George.  And that is the son of the late Thomas George  Gisdaywa?  Yes.  Mr. Joseph, why does your House and why do you claim  this particular territory?  This being his territory?  Gisdaywa's territory.  Thank you.  Because my uncles who was Gisdaywa before me used  and his family used it and it's -- it was said it is  their House territory.  And my grandfather also used  it.  And when I was given the name, I took the name  of Gisdaywa I was told that that is where my  territory was.  So it just came with the name.  The territory that you have described as Gisdaywa's  territory, have you described the boundary and the  geographic points in the territory to other people?  Yes.  Have you made mention in the Feasts yourself of  these points and of your boundaries?  Yes.  Have you described this territory to Marvin George?  Yes.  And Marvin George you know to be the cartographer  for the Tribal Council?  Yes.  And have you described this territory to Mr. Neil  Sterritt Jr.?  Yes.  And have you told them what you've told the court  today about where the place names and geographic  points are in your territory?  Yes. 1  Q  2  3  A  4  Q  5  A  6  Q  7  8  9  A  10  Q  11  12  A  13  14  15  16  Q  17  18  A  19  Q  20  21  A  22 THE  COURT:  23  A  24 THE  COURT:  2 5 MR.  RUSH:  26  Q  27  A  2 8 MR.  GOLDIE  2 9 MR.  RUSH:  30  Q  31  32  A  33  Q  34  A  35  36  Q  37  A  38  Q  39  40  41  42  43  44  A  45  Q  46  47  A  1591  And did you understand from that that they would  plot a map?  Yes.  And produce a map of the territory of Gisdaywa?  Yes.  Okay.  Now, the territory that you've described,  that belongs to Gisdaywa.  Does it also belong to  the House members of Kaiyexweniits?  Yes.  And what rights of use do other members of your  House have in respect of this territory of Gisdaywa?  They have a right to use the territory as long as  they are the members of the House of Kaiyexweniits  still because at Feasts we all -- we all together in  the Feast House and we have to share the territory.  And can you give permission to other people to use  the territory?  Yes.  And this, I think you've said, you have done with  Andy and Leonard George?  Yes.  I am sorry, are they members of your House?  No.  Thank you.  They are members of which House?  They are members of the House of Smogelgem.  I'm sorry?  Smogelgem.  Now, Mr. Joseph is there a -- a crest  which relates to your territory?  Yes.  And what is that crest?  The crest of Kaiyexweniits' House is the bear.  The  bear and the bear cub.  And what kind of bear is this?  Black bear.  Black bear.  And I made reference earlier to a pole  that was identified as your uncle's pole.  I want to  show you that.  My lord, if you will turn to tab 5,  please.  Mr. Joseph, if you will just look at the  photograph there at tab 5.  Do you see the black  bear crest on that pole?  Yes.  And is that the figure that is the second figure  from the ground?  Yes. 1  Q  2  3  A  4  Q  5  6  7  A  8  Q  9  A  10  11  Q  12  A  13  Q  14  A  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  Q  22  23  A  24  25  Q  26  27  28  A  29  30  31  32  Q  33  34  A  35  Q  36  37  A  38  MR.  RUSH:  39  THE  COURT  40  MR.  RUSH:  41  THE  COURT  42  43  THE  REGIS1  44  45  46  47  1592  And is that -- is that the black bear crest of the  House of Kaiyexweniits?  Yes.  Thank you.  And I would ask you, Mr. Joseph, did  that crest come from an event that occurred on your  territory?  Yes.  And how is that crest acted out today?  It is the dance that my grandfather Joseph George  who was Gisdaywa at the time used.  And was there a song with that?  Yes.  And was there a description given to the dance?  The dance is -- is acted out like when they see a  bear on the side of the hill and they -- the  movements that this bear goes through when he is up  there, how he move.  How the bear moves is the way  the song was composed.  The movements of the bear  were the same as the beat of the sound that was made  for my grandfather.  Have you seen that -- heard that song and seen that  dance?  I heard it many years ago and -- but I haven't heard  it lately.  All right.  And does the -- in what way does the  bear song and dance relate to what was -- what  happened on the territory?  It's -- that is known by my grandfather himself and  it is what he -- he dreams of.  What he sees at the  time and something has happened to him.  So that is  the song that was made out of those events.  And this is -- what he saw involved a bear on the  territory; is that right  Yes, yes.  And is the  Walk?  Yes.  My lord, I  Is this a  Yes.  All right, then, we will adjourn to Monday morning.  I wish you all a pleasant weekend.  AR:  Order in court.  (PROCEEDINGS ADJOURNED AT 4:00 UNTIL June 22, 1987)  I hereby certify the foregoing to be  is the dance called the Black Bear  wish to conclude at that point,  convenient place to adjourn? 1593  1 true and accurate transcript of the  2 proceedings herein, transcribed to  3 the best of my skill and ability.  4  5  6 LISA REID, Official Reporter  7 United Reporting Service Ltd.  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27


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