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Delgamuukw Trial Transcripts

[Proceedings of the Supreme Court of British Columbia 1988-02-01] British Columbia. Supreme Court Feb 1, 1988

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 2970  1 VANCOUVER, B.C.  2 February 1, 1988  3  4 THE REGISTRAR:  Order in court.  In the Supreme Court of British  5 Columbia, Monday, February 1, 1988.  Calling  6 Delgamuukw versus Her Majesty the Queen, my Lord.  7 THE COURT:  Well, I hope you all had as pleasant a weekend as I  8 did.  Has anyone seen the plaintiff?  Well, I suppose  9 we are one minute early.  I didn't realize we were  10 jumping the gun this morning.  11 MR. PLANT:  We're here out of an abundance of enthusiasm, my  12 Lord.  13 PRELYPCHAN:  Counsel will be here momentarily, my Lord.  14 THE COURT:  Perhaps we should adjourn for a moment.  I will be  15 nearby when they're ready.  16 THE REGISTRAR:  Order in court.  17  18 (SHORT BREAK TAKEN)  19  20 THE REGISTRAR:  Order in court.  Ready to proceed, my Lord.  21 THE COURT:  Thank you.  Miss Mandell.  22 MS. MANDELL:  Thank you, my Lord.  My apologies for not being  23 here exactly when you walked in.  24 THE COURT:  No apologies necessary, Miss Mandell, I was early.  25 THE REGISTRAR:  Mr. Henry Alfred in the stand, I caution you you  26 are still under oath.  Mr. Holland, I caution you you  27 are still under oath.  28 THE COURT:  Miss Mandell.  29 MS. MANDELL:  Thank you, my Lord.  I'm going to be asking  30 questions with respect to Exhibit 164, and perhaps  31 that can be placed before your Lordship.  I'll place  32 my copy before the witness.  33 THE COURT:  164 is what?  34 MS. MANDELL:  That's the diagram of the colour coding.  35 THE COURT:  The map?  I wonder what I did with it?  I haven't  36 found it yet.  Let me think.  37 THE COURT:  It's the last exhibit, I see.  38 THE REGISTRAR:  I'm not sure what Helen did with it, my Lord.  39 THE COURT:  I can't recall what happened to it.  It may be that  40 I took it away with me, but I don't remember that.  41 Are you going to be with the witness some time on 164?  42 MS. MANDELL:  My Lord, why don't I hand you the one I would  43 otherwise have been using with the witness, and Mr.  44 Alfred and I can share one.  45 THE COURT:  Yes, all right, thank you.  Go ahead, Miss Mandell.  4 6 MS. MANDELL:  47       Q   Thank you.  Mr. Alfred, I want to draw to your 2971  1 attention lines marked on Exhibit 164 which are marked  2 in red, and I would ask you whether or not you  3 indicated to myself or Richard Overstall that those  4 lines are lines where you or your house members have  5 trapped?  6 A   Yes.  7 Q   I'd first draw to your attention the red line where  8 there's a number 1 marked beside it in the vicinity of  9 Moricetown.  Can you see where I'm talking about?  10 A   Yes.  11 Q   Could you tell us with respect to that line what did  12 you represent by it, what trapping area did you  13 represent by that line?  14 A   That's where my late grandmother and I had set traps.  15 Q   When you say that your late grandmother and you set  16 traps, what animals were you trapping for at that  17 time?  18 A  Marten, mink, weasel and squirrels.  19 Q   And could you advise us how -- to the best of your  20 recollection, whether you and your grandmother would  21 use that line often while you were growing up?  22 A   Before my grandmother went blind, to the best of my  23 recollection I -- we used it one winter, and then  24 there's times we didn't go back to until next winter.  25 Q   Are you describing to us a process where you rotated  26 the lines -- the line?  27 A  Are you asking about the same line as my grandmother  28 used?  29 Q   Yes?  30 A   Yes.  31 Q   Okay.  Are you familiar with who from among your house  32 harvests from that line at the present time?  33 A  At the present my mother, Helen, and Helen's little  34 boy.  35 Q   Okay.  And that's Helen Michell?  36 A   Helen Michell, yes.  37 Q   And does Irene Michell also harvest that line?  38 A   Irene Brown.  39 Q   Irene Brown?  40 A   Yes.  41 MS. MANDELL:  All right.  Now, are you aware whether any portion  42 of that line has been recut since your grandmother  43 passed away?  44 THE COURT:  I'm sorry, Miss Mandell, but if I don't understand  45 the question perhaps the witness won't.  What do you  46 mean by recut; logged over again?  47 MS. MANDELL:  No.  Made into an articulating trapping trail, 2972  1 cutting forward in the trapping trail.  2 THE COURT:  I see, all right.  3 A   Yes.  4 MS. MANDELL:  5 Q   And do you know who recut the line?  6 A  Adam Brown did for my mother.  7 Q   And do you have -- do you know when that occurred?  8 A   In the early '80's, I'm not sure exactly.  9 Q   Did you give your permission before the -- before Adam  10 Brown recut that line?  11 A   Yes.  Me and my mother did.  12 Q   Okay.  Now, I noticed that on the map there's two  13 areas which indicate that there's been some logging  14 done around the mine.  Are you aware of the logging  15 which was done in that area?  16 A   Yes.  I'm aware of the logging, but I'm not sure of  17 what -- when it took place.  18 Q   Did you -- do you know who did the logging?  19 A   No, I don't.  20 Q   Did you give your consent for that logging to take  21 place?  22 A   I never gave nobody permission, but they just went in  23 there and started clear cutting.  24 Q   Okay.  Do members of your house meet regularly to  25 discuss who is trapping on Wah Tah K'eght's territory  26 for marten and where the trapping is occurring?  27 A   Yes.  We, including my mother, have a meeting to  28 discuss where they're going to be setting traps.  29 Q   Okay.  And do you also in the -- in the meetings  30 discuss the animals which have been trapped and from  31 what portions of the territory?  32 A   Yes.  We discuss what animals were caught and what  33 place so we won't go back to that area the next time.  34 Q   All right.  And what is your understanding of how  35 productive line 2 is as a line for trapping marten?  36 A  According to information, my mother, who was using  37 that line when she set traps just recently, up to this  38 date they haven't caught anything yet, that is the  39 information she gave me.  40 Q   And are you referring to trapping this season?  41 A   Is that the number 1 line?  42 MS. MANDELL:  Yes.  43 MR. PLANT:  My Lord, I assume this evidence is being tendered  44 for the truth of the catch, which at least appears to  45 be within this witness' knowledge only by way of  46 hearsay.  47 THE COURT:  Well, if it's not tendered for the truth I can't PLANT:  COURT  PLANT  COURT  2973  1 imagine for what purpose it would be tendered.  2 MS. MANDELL:  Well, the — it's true that it's hearsay, although  3 I might mention that part of the case is the chief's  4 understanding of the resources of the territory and  5 the decisions which are made with respect to that, and  6 to the extent that it's revealing of his state of mind  7 on this I think the evidence should go in.  8 THE COURT:  Well, I can't, with respect, amend the hearsay rule,  there's an objection.  At least I think there's an  obj ection.  Well, I'm concerned in this instance because of the  course of the witness' knowledge. It is the previous  witness --  He stated that.  Yes.  And I wouldn't have thought that the state of mind  of the witness is a relevant consideration, that's  just another way of describing the state of his  information, isn't it?  MANDELL:  Yes, it is.  It's to do with the state of his  information and also to do with the decisions which he  as chief will then take based on the information he  believes to be true.  Are you going to ask him what decisions he's reached  as a result of information he was given by his mother?  MANDELL:  Well, that's part of the evidence which will  overall be led with respect to the use of the various  lines, that is when they're used and by whom and to  the extent that he directs that, why he does so.  COURT:  Well, all right.  I suppose Mr. Plant's objection  was a limited one.  I suppose it would be best if I  stay out of it, although I must say I think that the  the response to the objection is really an abolition  of the hearsay rule.  I don't know where we're going  and I don't know what it's going to accomplish, but  I'm reluctant to intrude unduly into the proceedings.  I suppose you may go ahead.  MS. MANDELL:  Q   Thank you.  The question was whether or not when you  had described your mother's lack of success in  harvesting from the first trail, according to your  understanding was that this year's harvest that she  was reporting that she had no success on?  Yes.  It's this year.  All right.  Do you know how long your mother, and  Helen, and Irene, and Helen's children have been  harvesting from line 1?  9  10  11 MR.  12  13  14 THE  15 MR.  16 THE  17  18  19  2 0 MS.  21  22  23  2 4 THE COURT  25  2 6 MS.  27  28  29  30 THE  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  A  Q 2974  1 A   I don't know if they used it last year, but I know  2 this year they used it, two years ago.  3 MS. MANDELL:  Okay.  And when was it that Adam Brown recut the  4 line?  5 THE COURT:  Well, he told us it was in the early '80's.  6 MS. MANDELL:  7 Q   All right, okay.  And since the time when Adam Brown  8 recut the line to the present, what is your  9 understanding of whether that line has been  10 productive?  11 A   Two years ago she done all right.  At that time she  12 managed to trap some furs, but this year she hasn't  13 had any -- she wasn't very productive at all.  14 Q   All right.  I'd like to draw to your attention the  15 line which is marked line 2 on the map.  Now, if we  16 could first deal with the portion of the line, which  17 begins approximately at the Telkwa High Road and is --  18 is a barred line down to just approximately where you  19 got the number mark number 2, and I would like you to  20 first explain what that bar line represents?  21 A   Yes, that's -- that line going up to number -- the  22 figure 2 is the old trail, but the line that's going  23 around the slash is where I cut a trail through there  24 for future use.  25 MS. MANDELL:  All right.  My Lord, if I could indicate then for  26 the record, there's a line which begins at  27 approximately the Telkwa High Road where the word  28 "Bulkley" is just below a circle.  2 9 THE COURT:  Yes.  30 MS. MANDELL:  The evidence is that if that line were followed  31 relatively along the straight direction to number 2,  32 that's an old trail, but the line that's approximately  33 a third of the way veering south and through the slash  34 area is a line which he says he has recently cut, or  35 he's cut.  36 THE COURT:  Yes, okay.  37 MS. MANDELL:  38 Q   And could you explain then what the dotted line from  39 the top of the number 2 to -- to your east boundary;  40 what does that dotted line represent?  41 A  Where you see the figure number 2 is the area called  42 Leedlus nii Ge'naa, and that dotted line going to --  43 or the boundary line is the old trail that used to  44 lead into Babine, and beyond on the other side of the  45 boundary is Woos' territory, which I don't have any  4 6 knowledge of.  47 MS. MANDELL:  All right.  Just get the spelling of that on the 2975  1 trail.  2 THE INTERPRETER:  Leedlus nii Ge'naa, 397.  3 MS. MANDELL:  4 Q   Okay.  Did your ancestors use that trail; beginning  5 from the place we indicate that the trail has started  6 at around the Telkwa High Road into the eastern part  7 of your boundary?  8 A   I know there's a trail through -- starting down  9 there's a trail through there that I know of, but our  10 ancestors had probably used that trail long before us.  11 Q   How do you know that your ancestors used that trail  12 before you?  13 A   Peter Bazil was the one that informed me of that  14 trail, and the trail went through G'etsa'lis and  15 Leedlus nii Ge'naa on to Nee biil dilyee.  16 MS. MANDELL:  Just get those words.  17 THE INTERPRETER:  G'etsa'lis, G-'-e-t-s-a'-1-i-s, and Leedlus  18 nii Ge'naa, that's 397, and Nee biil dilyee is 376.  19 MS. MANDELL:  20 Q   Thank you.  Is there a landmark along the trail  21 indicating a connection between Wah tah k'eght and  22 Woos' territory?  23 A   Yes.  At the boundary line is where there's a stone  24 figure of a night-hawk sitting there, and they use  25 that on the trail if -- they turn that around to the  26 direction that the person that travelled it through  27 there has gone.  28 Q   All right.  So if the person travelling through had  29 gone to Woos' territory, would that bird be turned to  30 face east?  31 A   Yes.  32 Q   And if that person were to travel back to Moricetown,  33 would that bird be turned to face west?  34 A   Yes.  35 Q   Have you in your lifetime used this trail to hunt  36 within Wah Tah K'eght's territory?  37 A   Yes.  38 Q   Okay.  Now, is any of this line used also to harvest  39 marten and other fur-bearing animals?  40 A   Yes, this year.  41 Q   Okay.  And do you -- do you know who has used this  42 line to harvest fur-bearing animals; who from your  43 house?  44 A   I didn't know who used that line before me, but I have  45 cut the trail out now so I will be able to use it in  4 6 the future.  47 Q   All right.  What year then did you cut the trail out? 2976  1 A   Just last fall.  2 Q   Okay.  And there's a portion of the trail before the  3 part of the trail which veers south into the slash.  4 Did you cut -- recut that portion of the trail?  5 A   Yes.  6 MR. PLANT:  Sorry.  I haven't heard any evidence that it was  7 ever cut before this, so the word "recut" causes me  8 some confusion.  9 MS. MANDELL:  10 Q   Did you cut this portion of the trail?  11 A   Yes.  12 Q   Had that portion of the trail been cut for use as a  13 trapline before you had cut it in the last year or so?  14 A   Yes.  The area which -- the trail which I had cut out  15 had never been cut out for a long time.  You can see  16 there was old cutting from a long time before that.  17 You can see the old cuttings where I went through.  I  18 just recut the area.  19 MS. MANDELL:  All right.  20 THE COURT:  Miss Mandell, I'm sorry, I'm not sure if the witness  21 is talking about the east-west line or the southern  22 loop, if I can call it that.  23 MS. MANDELL:  24 Q   I believe that he's talking about -- correct me, Mr.  25 Alfred, are you speaking about the area which begins  26 at the Telkwa High Road and proceeds east to the area  27 just before the loop?  28 A   Yes.  29 MS. MANDELL:  Yes.  So it's the area to the west of the loop.  30 THE COURT:  And is that what — is that when you're telling me  31 that you cut last fall?  32 A   Yes.  33 THE COURT:  I see.  34 A   Both this end and that end.  35 THE COURT:  From the High Road to the junction with the southern  36 loop?  37 MS. MANDELL:  Yes.  That's what we're talking about right now in  38 the evidence.  39 THE COURT:  All right, thank you.  4 0 MS. MANDELL:  41 Q   And you had said that there was evidence that the  42 trail had been cut before you?  43 A  A long time before me.  44 Q   Okay.  And do you know who cut it before you?  45 A   No, I don't.  46 Q   Okay.  Now, there's then this portion of the trail  47 which has been called the southern loop that moves 2977  1 south through the area of clear cut.  Did you cut any  2 of that portion of the trail?  3 A No.  4 Q All right.  And then there's a portion of the trail  5 above the clear cutting area moving east.  Did you cut  6 that portion of the trail?  7 A Yes.  8 Q And had that trail -- portion of the trail to your  9 knowledge been cut before you cut it in the last  10 recent years?  11 A Looks like that trail had been there a long time ago.  12 I noticed that the trees had been cut, is very very  13 old.  14 Q And since you've cut that portion of the trail have  15 you set your traps there?  16 A Yes.  17 Q And when have you done that?  18 A From November, part of December I did.  19 Q Is that of this year?  20 A This year.  21 THE COURT:  Last year.  22 MS. MANDELL:  23 Q Was last year the --  24 A '67.  25 THE COURT:  '67 was that?  26 A '87.  27 MS. MANDELL:  28 Q '87.  Was that the first time that you used that line  29 to harvest?  30 A First time on number 2, yes.  31 Q All right.  And have you harvested from number 2 this  32 year?  33 A That's my first one this year, yes.  34 Q Okay.  And when was the last time you were then on  35 the -- on the line harvesting animals?  36 A Last week I went out on Saturday, reset my traps.  37 Q Okay.  And were you successful in catching any  38 animals?  39 A I caught three marten up -- way up on where number 2  40 is.  41 Q All right.  Have you successfully trapped any animals  42 besides marten from this line?  43 A Just the marten.  44 Q Okay.  We're then dealing with your having harvested  45 from the line in 1987; is that correct?  46 A Yes.  47 Q Could you advise whether or not you were able to trap 2978  1 any marten from the portion of the line beginning at  2 the High Road to the place where the road veers south  3 into the clear-cut area; just within that portion were  4 you able to trap any animals in that part of the mine?  5 A  Within four weeks I had only two -- two marten, very  6 poor on that part.  7 Q   All right.  And did you set your traps through the  8 loop which moves through the clear-cut area?  9 A   There's a couple, three or four traps between this  10 slash area.  11 Q   Were you able to trap any animals between the slash?  12 A   No.  13 Q   And in the area then to the farthest east of the trail  14 beginning at the end of the clear cut and moving east  15 have you been able to trap in that area?  16 A   That's where I got three marten last week.  17 Q   And have you been able to trap other animals besides  18 the three marten in that area?  19 A   No.  20 Q   All right.  I'd like to draw to your attention the  21 line which is marked number 3, beginning at IR number  22 3, which is approximately around the Hudson's Bay  23 Ranch and heading east into your territory.  Do you  24 see the line that I'm speaking about?  25 A   Yes.  26 Q   Could you indicate what the line represents to the  27 place approximately below the number 3 while the line  28 is barred in a barred red?  What did you represent by  29 that portion of the line?  30 A   The trail from Whuus C'oo Wenii was one Peter Bazil,  31 in 1963 he walked up the hill with me to exactly where  32 number 3 is marked, in 1963.  33 Q   Okay.  And the dotted line, which is going from  34 approximately the number 3 to it looks like Two Bridge  35 Lake, what does that portion of the line represent?  36 A   Yes.  That is a point where Bazil went — took me up  37 there and pointed out the area, and that is -- the  38 dotted line would be the trail heading towards  39 Tedeltl'ets, and he also told me that he went to south  4 0 end from there.  41 MS. MANDELL:  All right.  Perhaps we can — there's two  42 spellings.  Do you need them, my Lord?  43 THE COURT:  I would like the spelling for Two Bridge Lake.  Is  44 it T-r-u or T-r-o.  4 5 MR. PLANT:  T-w-o.  46 THE COURT:  T-w-o.  Is it two words?  47 MS. MANDELL:  I've always spelled it two. 1 THE (  COU]  2 MS. ]  y[AN]  3  Q  4  5  6  A  7  Q  8  9  10  A  11  12  Q  13  A  14  Q  15  A  16  Q  17  18  A  19  Q  20  A  21  22  Q  23  24  A  25  Q  26  A  27  Q  28  29  A  30  Q  31  32  A  33  Q  34  A  35  Q  36  37  A  38  Q  39  40  41  A  42  43  Q  44  45  46  A  47  Q  2979  :  I have the Indian spelling.  Thank you.  LL:  All right, thank you.  Now, in 1963, when you  described your walk with Peter Bazil, was that the  first time that you had been on this line?  Yes.  And do you know whether or not the line was used  before 1963 by Peter Bazil or by any other members of  your house?  I don't know, but Peter Bazil had been using it before  '63.  Um-hum.  I don't know what year.  All right.  That would be early 60's.  All right.  And did Peter Bazil use the line for  trapping marten?  Yes.  And how do you know that?  Because he told me I can use that line and traps.  The  traps were out on that line already.  All right.  And when Peter Bazil took you on the line  did he show you where the traps were?  Yes.  And have you since 1963 used that line to set traps?  In 1963 winter I used it.  Okay.  And did you use Peter Bazil's traps when you  went out there?  Yes.  And were you successful in harvesting any animals from  that line?  Yes.  Do you remember what animals you were able to harvest?  I was catching marten up higher and mink down lower.  All right.  And did you use the line any other years  besides 1963, to your recollection?  In the early '70's I used it again.  Okay.  And when you used the line in the early '70's  do you recall whether you were successful in  harvesting any animals from that line?  I wasn't too successful in the early '70's with  regards to catching fur animals.  I notice that at the westerly part of the line there's  a small jog in the line which moves south.  Do you see  where I'm indicating; there's two strokes?  Yes.  Could you indicate what that jog represents? 1  A  2  3  Q  4  5  A  6  7  Q  8  9  A  10  11  Q  12  A  13  Q  14  15  A  16  Q  17  A  18  Q  19  20  21  22  23  A  24  Q  25  26  A  27  Q  28  29  30  31  A  32  Q  33  34  A  35  Q  36  37  38  A  39  40  41  42  Q  43  44  A  45  Q  46  47  A  2980  Yes.  That indicates a trail which I had cut out, and  I used that one winter.  All right.  Do you recall when you cut out that  portion of the trail?  I'm not sure of the time and date, but I believe it  was the late '70's.  All right.  And why did you -- why did you cut a jog  in the trail there at that time?  At that time they were felling timber above that area.  That is why I cut that trail in there at that time.  And did you set your traps along that jog?  Yes.  And were you successful in trapping or harvesting any  animals from that line?  I did okay.  Okay.  And what animals were you able to harvest?  Just marten.  Okay.  Now, I notice that throughout the area between  the jog and the trail to the east of the -- east of  there to approximately number 3 there's a number of  areas where there's been logging indicated.  Are you  aware of when that area was logged?  I think that was logged late '70's.  Okay.  And did you -- did you give your consent to any  of that logging?  No.  And to the area north of that number 3 trail where  we've already indicated that you've taken a jog  through the clear cut from the number 2 trail, do you  know whether that portion of the territory was logged?  There was some logged at early '70's.  Um-hum.  And did you give your consent to any of that  logging?  No.  What affect did the logging in the area around the  number 2 and 3 trail have on your ability to harvest  animals from the number 3 line?  Yes.  Where you set traps on that line, that area was  destroyed by clear cutting, and it wasn't much good  for trapping animals there anymore, and that is why I  cut short trails on the side.  All right.  And did you also move your trapping to the  line which has been marked to number 4?  Um-hum.  Now, could you advise us what the number 4 line  represents?  Yes.  That's indicating the trail where I set traps. 1  Q  2  A  3  Q  4  5  6  A  7  8  Q  9  A  10  Q  11  12  A  13  Q  14  15  16  A  17  Q  18  A  19  Q  20  21  A  22  Q  23  24  A  25  26  27  Q  28  29  30  A  31  Q  32  33  34  35  A  36  37  Q  38  39  A  40  Q  41  42  A  43  Q  44  45  A  46  Q  47  A  2981  Did you cut any portion of the number 4 line?  Yes.  Could you indicate first the area below the slash to  the Telkwa High Road, in that area; did you cut any of  that area?  No, no.  I didn't cut any from the High Road to this  slash.  Do you know -- do you know who did cut that area?  You mean before slash?  All right.  Let's start there.  Do you know when the  slash went into the area?  The slash began in early '70's.  Okay.  So about before the slash was there a line from  the Telkwa High Road to the place where the slash now  is?  Yes.  And do you know who cut that line?  I did.  You did?  And what year did you do that, or  approximately what year?  Late 60's.  Okay.  Had there been a line there cut before you cut  it in the late 60's?  Yes.  There was a trail in there when my mother and  them used to go up there, and then I extended the  trail from there.  All right.  And the trail that you're speaking about  that your mother -- you say your mother and them used  to go.  Who would go with your mother?  Cecil and Andrew.  These are your brothers, Cecil and Andrew.  Did you  recut the trail that had been there before which  you're now speaking about which your mother and Cecil  and Andrew had previously used?  Some places I did cut and some places -- in only some  places I did cut and some places I didn't need to.  The area which is identified as going through the  slash, was that part of the trail which you cut?  Yes.  And was that part of the trail which had previously  been cut and used by your mother and Cecil and Andrew?  Before the slash that would be.  Okay.  Now, the portion of the trail which is beyond  the slash, did you cut that trail?  Yes.  And when did you cut that portion of the trail?  Early '80's. 1  Q  2  A  3  4  Q  5  6  7  A  8  Q  9  10  11  12  A  13  Q  14  15  A  16  Q  17  18  19  20  A  21  22  23  Q  24  25  26  A  27  Q  28  29  A  30  Q  31  32  33  34  A  35  36  Q  37  38  A  39  Q  40  41  A  42  Q  43  44  45  A  46  Q  47  2982  Okay.  And why did you cut the trail there then?  I extend that line.  It's poor on those slash areas,  so I extended to go further snow-shoeing then.  When you say very poor on the slash area, are you  indicating that the trapping was poor in the slash  area?  That's right.  All right.  Now, you say that you snow-shoe in.  Could  you advise when you're using this line how long will  it take for you to snow-shoe the eastern portion of  the trail which you cut in the early '80's?  Takes me about an hour and a half to snow-shoe in.  All right.  And how do you get to the slash area when  you're using the upper portion of the line?  Snowmobile.  Okay.  Now, since the late 60's or the early '70's,  when you first indicated that you recut the trail,  could you indicate whether or not this number 4 line;  was it your primary line where you set your traps?  I used that line from Whuus C'oo Wenii, and then I use  that other line, and then I leave a period of time in  between, and then I use the other line again.  If I can just clarify then what you're saying, you  used the number 3 line and then you moved and used the  number 4 line; is that correct?  Yes.  And then you left a period of time and rotated those  lines; is that correct?  Yes.  Did you harvest animals from the number 4 line then on  a rotating basis from 1970 or the early 1970's to  19 -- the period around 1980 when you cut the upper  end of the line?  I extend that trail to -- in the early '80's I used  that winter.  Okay.  What animals have you been able then to harvest  from the number 4 line?  Mostly marten.  Okay.  Have there been any other animals that you've  been able to harvest from there?  Squirrel and weasle.  Big catch.  I wonder if you could comment how  productive is the line from the Telkwa High Road to  the slash area today?  Poor.  And is there any productivity on the line through the  slash area? 1  A  2  Q  3  A  4  Q  5  6  7  A  8  9  Q  10  11  A  12  13  14  Q  15  16  A  17  18  19  Q  20  21  A  22  Q  23  24  A  25  26  27  28  Q  29  30  31  32  A  33  34  35  36  Q  37  38  39  A  40  Q  41  A  42  43  Q  44  45  A  46  Q  47  A  2983  Very poor too.  And is the line productive above the slash area?  Yes.  I wonder if you could tell us with respect to lines 2,  3, and 4 what plans, if any, do you have for the  future in terms of the extension of those lines?  Number 3 -- number 4 I wanted to extend down to the  creek back to Tedeltl'ets.  And why do you want to extend the line in that  territory?  Yes.  I would use that line in the winter once and  then in the fall once.  I would use that trail to go  up to the mountains to hunt for goats.  And do you have any plans with respect to the  extension of either lines 3 or 2?  1 was planning to take that number 2 line to  Tedeltl'ets and then follow back down -- back down to  number 4 along the creek, like to number 2 back there.  Okay.  So you want to join the number 2 and the number  4 line at Tedeltl'ets?  That's right.  And what's your thinking in extending the lines in  those directions?  My reasoning would be that I would put a trail in from  2 to Tedeltl'ets to 4 that I would use in the winter  months trapping in there and rotating them from them  lines.  All right.  Does the fact that your territory has been  logged have any -- does that play any part in your --  in your plans to extend the trails eastwards into your  area?  Because there was a clear cutting, that is why I am  pushing further into the timber towards the  boundaries.  I'm going to try and utilize that area  before clear cutting takes place in there.  I'd like to draw to your attention to the line which  is marked with a number 5 beside it.  Do you see that  line?  Yes.  Could you explain what that line represents?  That used to be my mother's and my brother's trapping  line.  And when you say your brother, are you speaking of  Cecil?  Cecil.  Do you know who cut that line?  I think Cecil, Andrew, and my mother did. 2984  1 Q   And do you know when that line was cut?  2 A   Early — late 50's or early 60's.  3 Q   Um-hum.  And are you aware of whether that line was  4 productive at that time when it was cut?  5 A   Yes.  6 MS. MANDELL:  What animals were trapped from that line?  7 MR. PLANT:  My Lord, my objection with respect to all of this  8 evidence is the same as that with respect to the  9 earlier information about trapping.  10 THE COURT:  Yes.  11 MR. PLANT:  Again, I assume it has something to do with Mr.  12 Alfred's decision making or his state of mind about  13 that decision making.  14 THE COURT:  We'll see.  15 MS. MANDELL:  We'll see, we hope.  16 MR. PLANT:  I'm not conceding that that has any relevance, but I  17 won't take my objection that far right now, my Lord.  18 THE COURT:  Thank you.  19 A   Lynx and marten.  2 0 MS. MANDELL:  21 Q   All right.  And to your knowledge, are there others  22 from your house who have continued to use that harvest  23 from that line since the time when it was cut in the  24 50's?  25 A   No.  I'm not aware of anybody else using that line  26 other than mother and them, and I -- but I cut that  27 trail in above where they were.  28 Q   All right.  This is the portion of the line which jogs  29 south at the top of the trail; is that what you're  30 indicating?  31 A   Yes.  32 MS. MANDELL:  And when did you cut that trail?  33 THE COURT:  This is on number 5?  34 MS. MANDELL:  Number 5, yeah.  35 THE COURT:  Thank you.  36 A   I didn't cut any trail here.  At number 4 I did.  37 MR. PLANT:  Yes.  That's the evidence as I understood it too.  38 A   I cut the trail from this last with John Dumont helped  3 9 me.  4 0 MS. MANDELL:  41 Q   We're back to the number 4, top of the line.  Who is  42 John Dumont?  43 A  My daughter's boyfriend.  44 Q   Okay.  I was trying to draw to your attention the  45 number 5 line.  Did you cut any portion of that line?  4 6       A   No, I didn't.  47       Q   Okay.  And to your knowledge, do any of your house 2985  1 members or yourself harvest from that line, either to  2 hunt or to trap, since that line was cut?  3 A  My late brother, Andrew, was hunting up there with  4 Cecil, my brother Cecil were hunting, and sometimes I  5 would go with them.  6 Q   Okay.  Do any members of your house, to your  7 knowledge, trap marten on that line within say the  8 last five years?  9 A   Not to my knowledge, not last five years.  10 Q   And do you know why that is?  11 A   I think it's very poor trapping down in that area now.  12 THE COURT:  Is that answer related to line number 5?  13 MS. MANDELL:  14 Q   5, yeah.  And when, to your knowledge, was the last  15 time that that line was productive?  16 A   In late 50's, early 60's.  My mother had good  17 production catching lynx, but after that -- after that  18 she wasn't so successful.  19 Q   I would like to draw to your attention a dotted line  20 beginning at Glentanna and heading towards Two Bridge  21 Lake, which you have on the map indicated a number 6  22 on the north side of that line.  Could you explain  23 what that dotted line represents?  24 A  We were driving along, me and Peter Bazil, after he  25 walked up on the trail, Whuus C'oo Wenii trail, I  2 6 think that weekend we drive down to Telkwa High Road  27 and we stopped at Glentanna and pointed out to me, and  28 he says "See that open area there, that's where the  29 trail is through to Tedelt'ets.  30 Q   And did he at that time explain to you whether he used  31 that trail for any purpose?  32 A   Not that year, but I think he used it -- I don't know  33 when he did use it, but he told me there was a trail  34 up there.  35 Q   And did he say whether or not that trail was used to  36 set traps by him?  37 A   Yes.  38 Q   Did he explain to you how he harvested from line 3 and  39 line 6?  40 A  When we stopped there he told me there's a trail goes  41 up there and it takes him a day back there and camp  42 back there and walk back to Whuus C'oo Wenii.  43 Q   So you're pointing on the map that he told you there  44 was a day trail along line 6, and he walked back to  45 Whuus C'oo Wenii along line 3?  46 A   Yes.  47 Q   And did he explain whether he set his traps along both 2986  1 trails?  2 A   He said there is.  3 Q   And did he explain to you how he was able to -- how he  4 was able to get from line 3 to line 6 along that  5 route?  6 A   From Whuus C'oo Wenii he said he takes the horse sled  7 to Glentanna, and then the boys bring it back, his --  8 I think Peter Bazil, Jr. takes the team back to Whuus  9 C'oo Wenii, and he walks back out there, walks back to  10 Whuus C'oo Wenii.  11 Q   Do you know who cut the line from Glentanna to Two  12 Bridge Lake?  13 A  At that time he told me that Peter Michell was back in  14 that area too with him.  15 Q   And Peter Michell; is that Peter Bazil's father?  16 A   Peter Michell is Peter Bazil's father, yes.  17 Q   All right.  And by what right would Peter Michell have  18 to harvest from Wah Tah K'eght's territory?  19 A   Peter Michell is the husband of Peter -- my  20 grandmother's sister.  21 Q   All right.  I don't know if I'm going to confuse it by  22 saying it this way:  Are you saying that Peter Bazil's  23 wife is your grandmother's sister?  24 A   That's right.  25 MS. MANDELL:  All right.  26 THE COURT:  Is this a convenient time to take the morning  27 adjournment, Miss Mandell?  2 8 MS. MANDELL:  Yes.  29 THE COURT:  All right, thank you.  30 THE REGISTRAR:  Order in court.  Court is recessed.  31  32 (PROCEEDINGS ADJOURNED AT 11:15)  33  34 I hereby certify the foregoing to be  35 a true and accurate transcript of the  36 proceedings herein transcribed to the  37 best of my skill and ability  38  39  40  41    42 Graham D. Parker  43 Official Reporter  44 United Reporting Service Ltd.  45  46  47 2987  1 HENRY ALFRED, Resumed:  2 EXAMINATION IN CHIEF BY MS. MANDELL:   (Continued)  3 MS. MANDELL:  4 Q   I am going to change maps with you.  5 Before the break I clarified something only to make  6 it confusing.  I am going to have to ask the question  7 which I posed before the break again.  8 It was Peter Michell's first wife who was your  9 grandmother's sister; is that correct?  10 A   Yes.  11 Q   Do you know whether or not your grandmother's sister,  12 that's Peter Michell's wife, do you know whether or  13 not she harvested resources from Wahtahkieght's  14 territory?  15 A   Yes, it was when Peter Bazil as a young person  16 travelled with them in that territory, and they  17 travelled up to that lake to do fishing with the fish  18 trap.  19 Q   Is that to Bridge Lake, Tedeltl'ets?  20 A   Tedeltl'ets.  21 Q   Now, you had mentioned earlier that part of your  22 future plans will be to cut the trails number two and  23 four into the eastern part of your territory.  And you  24 said that you are doing that in order -- well, you  25 mentioned that you intended to do that.  I am  26 wondering if logging should take place in the eastern  27 part of your territory, is there any other places  28 within your territory where you could still cut trails  29 to productively trap?  30 A   If clear cut logging should go any further than it is  31 now, and if it should be destroyed further into the  32 area, we wouldn't have any place else to go.  33 Q   Apart from the setting of traps in that eastern part  34 of the territory where you wish to cut, are there any  35 other animals which you plan to harvest from that part  36 of the territory should you cut your new trails?  37 A   Yes, we could be harvesting beaver that's up in that  38 area and also in the fall time we would go up for --  39 to hunt goats.  4 0 Q   Now, could you explain why you moved your trapping to  41 line two in the last year, having earlier primarily  42 harvested from line four?  43 MR. PLANT:   Excuse me, my lord, I don't have any evidence that  44 line four was the primary place for harvesting.  I  45 know the question was asked but there was no answer.  46 THE COURT:  There was no answer, that's correct.  47 MS. MANDELL:  I am going to ask you. 2988  Why did you move your line to line two this last year?  I would be using line two now because I had already  used line four and it is part of my rotation process.  LL:  Excuse me for a minute, my lord.  Mr. Alfred, when you set traps or hunt in  Wahtahkieght's territory, do you ever spend the night  there?  No.  Do you know whether or not your ancestors would spend  the night when they were in Wahtahkieght's territory  hunting and trapping?  Yes.  How do you know that?  Peter Bazil just told me.  And did he tell you how they set their camps?  Yes.  And how was that?  They just told me they put lean -- put branch, spruce  branch and stuff, wind protector.  And are you aware of any places within Wahtahkieght's  territory where your ancestors camped?  No, I am not aware of any site but I haven't gone in  far enough yet into the territory to have any  knowledge of any campsites.  In what part of the territory would you go in order to  learn more about the campsites?  They had a camping area in Tedeltl'ets and probably at  Nee biil dilyee.  And how do you know these camping areas?  Bazil was the one that told me Tedeltl'ets in between  there and Nee biil dilyee.  That is Peter Bazil?  Peter Bazil.  :  I am not sure I am getting the second name, is it  Nee biil dilyee?  36 THE TRANSLATOR:  It's 367.  37 MS. MANDELL:  It's a peak or ridge on the northern boundary.  38 THE COURT:  Well, is that spelt differently on this map?  39 MS. MANDELL:  Yes.  It's the same as 367.  4 0 THE COURT:  Yes.  All right.  Thank you.  41 MS. MANDELL:  When you trap a marten, do you use the meat of the  marten for any purpose?  No.  And how have you been taught to treat the carcass?  My grandmother had taught me to treat the carcasses  properly so as in the future you would be successful  1  Q  2  A  3  4 MS.  MANDE  5  Q  6  7  8  A  9  Q  10  11  12  A  13  Q  14  A  15  Q  16  A  17  Q  18  A  19  20  Q  21  22  A  23  24  25  Q  26  27  A  28  29  Q  30  A  31  32  Q  33  A  34 THE  COURT  35  42  Q  43  44  A  45  Q  46  A  47 1  2  Q  3  4  A  5  6  Q  7  8  A  9  Q  10  11  12  13  A  14  Q  15  A  16  17  18  Q  19  A  20  Q  21  22  23  A  24  Q  25  A  26  Q  27  A  28  Q  29  30  31  A  32  33  34  Q  35  A  36  Q  37  38  39  40  A  41  42  43  44  45  Q  46  47  2989  in trapping the animals again.  And could you describe what you do with the carcass to  treat it properly?  Yes, we would hang it up out of reach of dogs or other  predators so as it would deteriorate on its own.  And do you and members of your house continue in this  practice today?  Yes.  When you trap on your territory for marten or for  other small fur-bearing animals, do you pack your  traps in with you or do you leave them on the  territory?  I pack it in and out.  And why do you do that?  Well, in previous year I lost quite a bit of Peter  Bazil's traps, it was clear cut, I lost a lot of  traps.  Was that on the number three line?  On number three.  Who from your house today regularly harvests the  marten and fur-bearing animals from Wahtahkieght's  territory?  My mother, Helen, Irene.  And you mentioned earlier your brother Cecil?  Yes.  And yourself?  Myself.  And when Helen or Irene or your mother harvests  fur-bearing animals, do they take the children or the  grandchildren with them to do that?  When mother goes out there the grandchildren go with  them, and if Irene goes out the children go with them,  because these children are interested in trapping.  And do any of Helen's children go with her?  Yes.  You mentioned that your house will meet regularly to  discuss the trapping on the territory, as the chief do  you have the authority to direct people to trap at  particular locations?  Yes, when we have our meetings and they tell me where  they are going to go trapping, and where they had  been, that if I feel that they have trapped there  already, I instruct them to use different area or the  other side.  Based upon your knowledge of your territory, and the  animals that are there to be harvested, do you feel  that the people who are presently harvesting the 2990  1 fur-bearing animals are -- are there the right number  2 of people or too few people or too many people who are  3 harvesting on the territory today?  4 THE COURT:  What am I to do with "feelings", Ms. Mandell?  5 MS. MANDELL:  "Is it your opinion?" then.  6 Q   Is it your opinion that there is a good number of  7 people who are harvesting on your territory today  8 based upon the availability of animals there?  9 A  At this point, we have the right number of people  10 using the territory.  If we had more than what we have  11 now, and they won't be -- you would have over-  12 harvesting and there won't be no animals left.  13 Q   Are there hunters and trappers from the next  14 generation of people from your house who are showing  15 an interest in using Wahtahkieght's territory for  16 hunting and trapping?  17 A   Yes.  18 Q   Who are those people?  19 A   One is Helen Michell's boy.  20 Q   Is that Cyril?  21 A   Cyril, yes.  And one is Irene Brown's boy.  22 Q   Is that Eugene?  23 A   Eugene Brown.  24 Q   How old is your brother Cecil?  25 A   He is in his 40s.  26 Q   In his 40s.   Now, we had heard -- you have marked  27 with a brown line along the map in the western portion  28 of your territory throughout and along the boundary  29 and then inside you have put the names Bazil Michell.  30 I am wondering what did you intend to indicate by  31 those brown markings?  32 A   Since I took over the territory, that would indicate  33 that that area there is the area that Bazil Michell is  34 caretaking.  35 Q   And did -- who told you about Bazil Michell's  36 caretaking role on Wahtahkieght's territory?  37 A   Peter Bazil told me about it; also my mother.  38 Q   And what do you understand Bazil Michell's rights to  39 be to the west side of the territory?  40 A   Peter Bazil had told me that when the previous  41 Wahtahkieght, Peter Bazil, passed on and Bazil Michell  42 went along to help him when they went to Babine.  And  43 in appreciation for his help, he had given that side  44 of the territory for Bazil Michell's use in his  45 lifetime.  46 Q   And once Bazil has passed on, who will make the  47 decision regarding the successor to the name Hadah 2991  1 k'umah, and the use of the west side of the territory  2 now used by Bazil?  3 A   I have talked with my mother, and what we talked about  4 is that the name in that case Hadah k'umah would  5 probably go to Helen's son and then that will have --  6 the name will have come back to the proper house.  7 Q   And the question which I asked is who has the final  8 authority to make that decision to give Hadah k'umah  9 to Helen's son or to whoever?  10 A   I, myself, would make that recommendation and at the  11 feast, the chiefs on the three sides that are  12 witnessing, the chiefs from there will make the final  13 decision whether they agree or disagree.  14 Q   Do you, today, consult with Bazil Michell concerning  15 major decisions regarding house business, such as who  16 will take a name?  17 A   Bazil had talked to my mother in regards to that name  18 and the instruction that he had given my mother is  19 what -- where the name would go and mother in turn had  20 told me about it.  21 Q   This is your mother having talked with Bazil about the  22 passing on of the name Hadah k'umah, that's what he  23 was talking about, is that your evidence?  24 A   Yes, Bazil has given instructions in regards to where  25 that name would go and mother in turn told me about  26 the conversation.  27 Q   All right.  Apart from the example of the name Hadah  28 k'umah, if your house is choosing to pass on another  29 name, would -- do you consult with Bazil about who  30 ought to get that name?  31 A   Yes, there is always meetings as to what is to take  32 place and recommendations are made to the feast hall  33 and the chiefs there either confirm or disagree with  34 the recommendations.  35 Q   Now, you told us about the decision making process  36 regarding the passing on of the name Hadah k'umah, who  37 has final decision making authority as to who will be  38 using the west side of your territory after Bazil has  39 passed away?  40 A   The process that would take place is that the name  41 would go back to Tsee K'al K'e yex and then in regards  42 to the west side territory that will go back to Tsee  43 K'al K'e yex and that young man who would be taking  44 the name  Hadah K'umah would use that territory but it  45 would probably be under the rulings of Wahtahkieght.  46 THE COURT:  I am not sure, I probably have, but I am not sure I  47 have had that name before? 2992  1 MS. MANDELL:  The house name?  Hadah k'umah.  2 THE COURT:  That's what we are talking about?  3 MR. PLANT:  No, the word was Tsee K'al k'e yex, the house on the  4 flat rock, as I heard it.  5 THE COURT:  That went right past me.  6 MS. MANDELL:   There were two words that were used.  7 THE COURT:  We have been using the names Wahtahkieght almost  8 interchangeably with the house and the name.  But I  9 know originally I was given the name of the house and  10 that's -- what is the name that Bazil Michell has been  11 using?  12 MS. MANDELL:  Bazil Michell has the name Hadah k'umah.  13 THE TRANSLATOR:  That's number 223.  14 MS. MANDELL:  The evidence was that the name will return to the  15 house and that number is --  16 THE TRANSLATOR:  398.  17 MS. MANDELL:  398.  18 THE COURT:  398?  19 MS. MANDELL:  That's right.  2 0 THE COURT:  All right.  Thank you.  21 MS. MANDELL:  22 Q   Before leaving the last exhibit, 164, I wonder if you  23 could advise the court whether or not since you first  24 started to harvest from the number three trapline in  25 1963 to the present, whether you have, on a yearly  26 basis, harvested fur-bearing animals from one place in  27 the territory or another?  28 A   In 1963, after the territory was turned over to me, I  29 used that line up there, the main line up there, that  30 one year, and then the following year I used the lines  31 which I had branched off it.  32 Q   So, just to clarify your evidence, you are speaking  33 then that the first year you used line three and then  34 after that you are speaking about having used line  35 four and the area that you branched off in line three;  36 is that correct?  37 A   I forget the time period, but line three is -- I use  38 line three and then there is a branch off line three  39 which I used -- I forgot, it's been sometime now, I  40 forget whether it was two seasons that I left it.  41 THE COURT:  I am troubled by the evidence of the witness, I  42 wonder if he meant this, he said in 1963 when the  43 territory was turned over to me; is that correct?  44 MS. MANDELL:  I think he is —  45 Q   Are you referring in 1963 to your conversation with  46 Peter Bazil?  47 A   1963, yes. 2993  1 THE COURT:  Peter Bazil didn't die, according to the genealogy,  2 until 1966.  3 MS. MANDELL:  That's correct.  But your lordship may recall that  4 in 1963 there was a meeting between Mr. Alfred and Mr.  5 Bazil after which time he started to use the number  6 three line.  7 THE COURT:  All right.  Thank you.  8 MS. MANDELL:  Since 1963, have you harvested fur-bearing animals  from either number three or number four line to the  present?  I am sorry, number three line, number four  line or number two line to the present?  Last year, I used number four and then just this year  I moved to number two.  Okay.  But, if -- in the period between 1963 to the  present, in that period, have you harvested  fur-bearing animals from your territory every year?  After 1963, I used the lines for two seasons, two  winters, and then I worked for the C. N. in Prince  George and my mother was using the territory then.  And at what time, can you remember when then did you  start to -- did you return to the territory to  continue to harvest fur-bearing animals?  I am not exactly sure about time, but I think probably  in the late '70s, and up until now, I have been using  the territory rotating it.  And during the time when you were working for the CNR,  did you ever use the territory to trap fur-bearing  animals?  That is the area I am talking about is Cecil's mother  and Andrew use the territory and then when I came back  on weekends, we had meetings and they would inform me  as to what animals had been taken.  And before 1963, had you used the -- had you harvested  from any portion of the territory on a regular basis?  Before '63, I trapped with my grandmother and the  areas -- in the areas she was in.  But other than  that, I didn't use the territory before '63.  Can you recall how old you were when you stopped  trapping with your grandmother?  II -- I was pretty young, I was 11 or 12 years old.  I am going to change the subject now and talk about  feasts.  Do you participate regularly at the feasts?  Yes.  And have you done so all your life?  Yes.  Within your house, who are your main sub-chiefs?  9  Q  10  11  12  13  A  14  15  Q  16  17  18  A  19  20  21  Q  22  23  24  A  25  26  27  Q  28  29  30  A  31  32  33  34  Q  35  36  A  37  38  39  Q  40  41  A  42  Q  43  44  A  45  Q  46  A  47  Q 2994  1 A   In our house, it would be Dz'eeh, Diil ts'aih, Ca'  2 minsk'et and 'Al diits.  3 THE COURT:  Sorry?  4 THE TRANSLATOR:  Diil ts'aih, that's 506; Ca' minsk'et, that's  5 516; 'Al diits, 527; and Dz'eeh is 461.  6 MS. MANDELL:  7 Q   If your house or when your house hosts a feast, did  8 you consult with these people before -- in the  9 planning of the feast?  10 A   Yes, we would have a meeting and discuss the plans for  11 the feast.  12 Q   Can you provide some examples of feasts which your  13 house has hosted since you have taken the name  14 Wahtahkieght?  15 THE COURT:  I think that question suggests a somewhat longish  16 answer and if that's so we will adjourn for lunch and  17 resume at 12 o'clock.  18 (Proceedings adjourned for lunch)  19  20  21  22  23 I hereby certify the foregoing to be  24 a true and accurate transcript of the  25 proceedings herein to the best of my  26 skill and ability.  27  28  29  30  31  32 Wilf Roy  33 Official Reporter  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47 (PROCEEDINGS RESUMED AT 2:05) 2995  1  2 THE REGISTRAR:  Order in court.  Delgamuukw versus Her Majesty  3 the Queen, at bar, my Lord.  4 THE COURT:  Miss Mandell.  5 MS. MANDELL:  My Lord, I have an updated word list which I would  6 like to pass up.  I understand that you were missing  7 the last page of your old one.  8 THE COURT:  Yes.  Oh, it's here somewhere.  9 MS. MANDELL:  And we intend to provide this word list to my  10 friends as well.  It wasn't intended to be distributed  11 today but it will help you in at least the problems  12 which you've raised.  13 THE COURT:  Thank you, I'm most grateful.  14 MS. MANDELL:  15 Q   Okay.  Before we broke for lunch we were speaking  16 about feasts, and I asked you whether you could  17 provide some examples of feasts which your house has  18 hosted since you've taken the name Wah tah k'eght?  19 A  Well, some of the feasts that I had participated in  20 was Peter Bazil's stone feasts, Vern George, Dale  21 George and Andrew George -- I mean Andrew Alfred.  22 THE COURT:  What was the first name for, Vern George?  23 MS. MANDELL:  24 Q   Yeah.  Dale George, Andrew Alfred?  2 5       A  And Xax.  26 THE COURT:  I'm sorry?  27 A   Xax.  2 8 MS. MANDELL:  29 Q   Is the feast which you called Xax, is that the -- who  30 had passed away when that feast was given?  31 A   That was Esther Holland passed away.  32 Q   All right.  Now, when you speak of the feasts of Vern  33 George, Dale George, and Andrew Alfred, were those  34 feasts funeral feasts or headstone feasts or both?  35 A   Both.  36 Q   And the feast where you mentioned Esther Holland, was  37 that a funeral feast, a headstone feast or both?  38 A   Both.  39 Q   And to your recollection, were any names of your house  40 passed at any of these feasts?  41 A   Yes.  42 Q   Could you tell us as you recall which names were  43 passed then?  44 A   Xax handed down to George Holland.  45 MS. MANDELL: The name Xax?  4 6 THE COURT: Yes, thank you.  47 THE INTERPRETER:  X-a-x. 2996  1 MS. MANDELL:  2 Q   Okay.  Was that at the headstone feast of Esther  3 Holland?  4 A   Yes.  5 Q   When did that occur?  6 A   I forget exact date.  I believe the funeral was two  7 years ago, or maybe three.  8 Q   And when did the -- can you recall when the headstone  9 feast was?  10 A   It was a year after the funeral feast.  11 Q   And then did the name pass at the headstone feast?  12 A   Yes.  13 Q   Have you ever missed a feast where your house has been  14 the host?  15 A   Not offhand that I know of.  16 Q   Have any of the feasts that have taken place since  17 you've been Wah tah k'eght occurred without  18 contribution of either meat or berries from your  19 territory?  20 A   Every feast that our house has conducted it has always  21 been wild game meat brought in from the territory, and  22 sometimes members of the house have brought in meat  23 from the territory.  24 Q   All right.  And do you recall whether you personally  25 have contributed wild game meat to each of the feasts  26 which your house has hosted?  27 A   Yes.  My mother always has beaver meat handy to -- in  28 case of future feasts, and when the feast does arise  29 it is contributed there, and then it is mentioned  30 where the meat came from, and also my name is  31 mentioned, as I am the one that brings it in.  32 Q   Okay.  Now, Hagwilnegh, there is at the present time  33 no successor chosen to take -- to be Hagwilnegh; is  34 that correct?  35 A   Up to this point there hasn't been anybody designated  36 as yet, but there is possibly two candidates, and  37 later on when the stone feast is being held, that is  3 8 when it will come up.  39 MS. MANDELL:  My Lord, do you need a number for Hagwilnegh?  40 THE COURT:  No, thank you.  41 MS. MANDELL:  42 Q   Until the time when Hagwilnegh's successor is  43 designated do you speak for Hagwilnegh in the feast?  44 A   Yes.  45 Q   What does it mean, or what is your job to speak for  46 Hagwilnegh until the successor is designated?  47 A  When -- I am not the only one that speaks on behalf of 2997  1 Hagwilnegh, and one other person that would also be  2 speaking would be Wah tah kwets, because in the feasts  3 the three of us sit together.  4 MS. MANDELL:  Do you need a number for that, my Lord?  5 THE COURT:  No.  6 MS. MANDELL:  7 Q   What would the authority of yourself and Wah tah kwets  8 be in speaking for Hagwilnegh?  9 A   In the feast Wah tah kwets and I would speak as  10 advisors, and at the moment there's nobody designated  11 to take his seat, and we would consult with his house.  12 Q   Do you have any authority to make decisions which  13 Hagwilnegh would otherwise make if he had already been  14 designated?  15 A  Me, I speak on behalf of Tsee k'al k'e yex, as there  16 is no designated successor yet.  I would also speak  17 and consult on behalf of G'enegh la yex, and the same  18 goes with Wah tah kwets.  He would speak for his house  19 and also speak and consult with G'enegh la yex.  2 0 MS. MANDELL:  Do you need some —  21 THE COURT:  I have those, thank you.  22 MS. MANDELL:  23 Q   What is the difference between speaking and  24 consulting?  25 A   Speaking and consulting is we would advise them as to  26 the laws and the way the feast should go, and then we  27 help them plan and think out their plan, and they  28 would consult in that respect.  29 Q   I'm going to turn to another area, and I am going to  30 be asking you some questions about the chief and  31 council's role.  I would first like to ask you:  Are  32 you aware of the job which is performed by the chief  33 and council at Moricetown?  34 A   I don't know the exact activities of the council, but  35 I do know that they look after the village end of it.  36 Q   Is there a difference between the authority of the  37 band council and the authority of you as the  38 hereditary chief of Wah tah k'eght's territory?  39 A   Yes.  The chief and council look after the village and  40 also deal with the D.I.A.  I, myself, as Wah tah  41 k'eght, look after the territory of Wah tah k'eght and  42 band and -- band councils do not have anything to do  43 with my territory.  44 Q   All right.  Does the band council have any  45 decision-making power with respect to the feasts?  46 A   Councils are different.  The feast system is a  47 responsibility of the chiefs. 2998  1 Q   And just to answer the question clearly then, does the  2 band council have any responsibility with respect to  3 the feasts?  4 A   I do not know of any -- of anytime when band council  5 talks about the feast.  All I know is that the chiefs  6 are the ones that are responsible and talk about the  7 feasts.  8 Q   All right.  And does the band council have any  9 authority with respect to, for example, who would  10 harvest marten or beaver from your territory?  11 A   No.  12 Q   Now, Wah tah k'eght is in the unusual situation of  13 having the Moricetown Indian Reserve located within  14 your territory; is that correct?  15 A   Yes.  16 Q   And do you, as Wah tah k'eght, agree with band  17 council's authority to look after the village at  18 Moricetown?  19 A   Now, it's all right with me personally, but a long  20 time ago, that village has always been there, when  21 people came in from the different territories to come  22 fishing, and that's why that village has always been  23 there, and for people to come in fishing during the  2 4 summertime.  2 5 Q   Um-hum?  26 A  And the village has always been there when the band  27 council came into existence.  28 Q   Okay.  Now, are you aware of the fact that the  29 Moricetown Indian Band Council is -- is conducting a  30 logging project within Wah tah k'eght's territory?  31 A   Yes.  I am aware of that, and they have meetings quite  32 often, and I'm always present at these meetings.  33 Q   Okay.  I wonder whether you could look at the map  34 again, Exhibit 164, and could you point out the areas  35 which you understand the Moricetown Indian Band has  36 logged or is presently logging within your territory?  37 A   That's one there.  38 MS. MANDELL:  I wonder whether — my Lord, for the record, I  39 will indicate where he's pointing with an X.  And the  40 first place that he has indicated is in the area to  41 the immediate left of the word "Moricetown".  42 THE COURT:  Yes.  43 MS. MANDELL:  In the area which is marked "For Bazil Michell's  44 use".  45 THE COURT:  Yes.  One of those areas.  46 MS. MANDELL:  Is the Moricetown —  47 THE COURT:  Encircled with a heavy black line. 2999  1 MS. MANDELL:  Yes.  2 THE COURT:  Yes.  3 MS. MANDELL:  4 Q   Are there any other areas you're aware of where the  5 band has either logged or is logging within the  6 territory?  7 A   There is only that place right now.  8 Q   Right now?  And are you aware of any other place that  9 they have logged?  10 A   These back here, was working for this highway when  11 they worked back in there.  12 Q   And that was where the Moricetown Band was working?  13 A   Yes.  14 Q   My Lord, you will see -- is it all three areas, or is  15 it just the one; do you know?  16 A  All three.  17 MS. MANDELL:  All right.  My Lord, you will see that to the  18 immediate left of the first X there's three other  19 small areas which are indicated as areas which have  20 been logged.  21 THE COURT:  Immediately to the west of Moricetown?  22 MS. MANDELL:  23 Q   Yes?  24 A   Yes.  25 MS. MANDELL:  The witness has indicated those are the areas.  26 THE COURT:  These are the actual areas that are logged by the  27 Moricetown Band?  28 MS. MANDELL:  Or are being logged.  2 9 THE COURT:  There's five of them on the map.  30 MS. MANDELL:  31 Q   Do you know anything about whether the band has logged  32 or is logging this area there; it's a little area to  33 the north of the first X that you've indicated?  34 A   Those two.  35 Q   The both; so all five areas?  36 A   Yes, that's right.  37 MS. MANDELL:  All five areas?  Thank you.  38 THE COURT:  Yes, all right, all five areas.  Is that a small  39 lake that's to the north-east of the first two that  40 are closest to Moricetown?  There's a light thin line.  41 Is that a lake?  42 MS. MANDELL:  Perhaps you will ask the witness.  43 THE COURT:  Is that a lake alongside those first two logging  44 areas, Mr. Alfred, or what is that above the word  45 "Moricetown".  4 6 MS. MANDELL:  47       Q   This little circle here; is that a lake? 3000  1 A   That's a lake.  2 MS. MANDELL:  Yes.  It is a lake.  3 THE COURT:  Yes.  All right, thank you.  4 MS. MANDELL:  5 Q   Did you as Wah tah k'eght give your consent for this  6 logging to occur?  7 A   Yes.  I attended many meetings, and I thought long and  8 hard over this decision when this logging operation  9 was being talked about, and I thought it over, and the  10 decision I came down with was that the white loggers  11 would come in there and clean out the place and there  12 would be no benefit to myself, so I consented to the  13 Moricetown Band to do the logging, and as a result I  14 am working for them now, and there was a large  15 percentage of unemployment in the village and now we  16 have a lot of unemployed people before that are  17 working now on this operation.  18 Q   Do you know approximately how many jobs have been  19 created by the logging operation directly?  20 A  When the meetings were first taking place there was an  21 estimate of about 35 people being employed, but since  22 the operation started there's quite a large number  23 working in the sawmills and in the bush now.  24 Q   And to your knowledge is there then more than 35  25 people employed at the present time, both in the  26 sawmills and in the bush?  27 A  At this point I don't think there's quite that many  28 because it's not too long ago they had two shifts and  29 there was more than that number being employed at the  30 time, but there is less now since one shift has been  31 laid off.  32 Q   Okay.  And do you know, where is the location of the  33 sawmill?  34 A   The mill is west of Moricetown, just directly behind  35 it.  It's not too far off.  36 Q   And what's the job which you do for the logging  37 operation?  38 A   Driving truck.  39 Q   According to Wet'suwet'en law, if you as Wah tah  40 k'eght had opposed the cutting of the trees in your  41 territory could the Moricetown Band Council have  42 proceeded with the project?  43 A   If I was to oppose and say no to the mill and logging  44 the forestry would have put in other companies and  45 they would have cleaned the place out and to no  46 benefit to me or our people.  47 Q   If there wasn't forestry to consider and the decision 3001  1 to log your territory was between you and the band  2 council, if you had refused your consent could the  3 band council have gone ahead anyways?  4 A   If there was no forestry involvement and I said no,  5 they won't be able to go in there at all.  6 Q   Okay.  Now, do you -- do you agree with clear-cut  7 logging in your territory?  8 A   If I was to request select logging and we went select  9 logging the forestry would only send in other people  10 to clear cut the area, and it will still happen  11 anyways.  12 Q   Are you aware of any other Wet'suwet'en people who  13 have logged within Wah tah k'eght's territory, apart  14 from the Moricetown logging operation?  15 A   Yes.  At the time when Peter Bazil was Wah tah k'eght  16 they had consulted with one another and they had done  17 some select logging.  Where they done select logging  18 the forestry came along and clear cut the whole area  19 later.  20 Q   I wonder whether you can identify from Exhibit 164 the  21 area which you understand Peter Bazil had when he was  22 chief that there was select logging done on Wah tah  23 k'eght's territory?  24 A   Sylvester had a mill here somewhere, I don't know  25 which one it is now, back in here I think.  That's all  26 clear cut now.  27 Q   Okay.  My Lord —  28 A   Either one or that, I don't know which one it is now.  29 MS. MANDELL:  Okay.  The — the witness has indicated that  30 between lines 3 and 4 on the portion of the territory  31 between Gramaphone and Meed Creek on your map there  32 are areas which he indicated Sylvester William had  33 selectively logged but which are today clear cut.  34 There are no -- he can't be precise as to which of the  35 cutting blocks are encompassed with that.  36 THE COURT:  All right, thank you.  37 A   That's right, yeah.  38 MS. MANDELL:  39 Q   Okay.  And are you aware of any other Wet'suwet'en  40 person who logged on your territory?  41 A   Before I was Wah tah k'eght?  There was Gordon Hall  42 had a sawmill a long long time ago.  43 Q   All right.  Do you know where that sawmill was?  44 A   Down in here, somewhere just south of Moricetown.  45 MS. MANDELL:  All right.  The evidence, my Lord, is that in the  46 area south of Moricetown -- Moricetown, just south of  47 the -- approximately in the area which is marked as 3002  1 trapline number 1, Gordon Hall had a small sawmill.  2 THE COURT:  That's north of Moricetown?  3 MS. MANDELL:  4 Q   No, I'm sorry, it's -- it's between lines 2 and 3?  5 A   Yeah.  Between lines 2 and 3.  6 MS. MANDELL:  A small distance from the Telkwa High Road.  7 THE COURT:  Um-hum.  8 MS. MANDELL:  9 Q   Are you aware whether or not when Sylvester William or  10 Gordon Hall were logging in your territory whether  11 your house members were employed in the logging  12 operation?  13 A   The first one was Gordon Hall, and my dad was employed  14 there.  On the second one that sawmill came in, it was  15 Sylvester William, also my dad was employed there.  16 Q   Okay.  Now, apart from those examples which you've  17 provided where there have been Wet'suwet'en logging in  18 your territory, has any of the other logging which has  19 taken place in the territory been conducted by  20 Wet'suwet'en people?  21 A   Yes.  When Gordon Hall or Sylvester William hired, all  22 their employees were Wet'suwet'en.  23 Q   Okay.  Has all of the other logging which has taken  24 place in your territory been done by white people or  25 non-Wet'suwet'en people?  26 A   Yes.  They were all white people that logged the area,  27 and only employee of this one white man that I knew  28 was Alfred Mitchell.  29 Q   Okay.  And has any of the white people who have logged  30 your area, have any of them obtained your consent to  31 do that?  32 A   No.  33 Q   And have you as Wah tah k'eght received any benefit as  34 a result of the logging of the area by those white  35 people?  36 A   No.  37 Q   And from your point of view, would it be necessary for  38 the owners of those companies to have obtained your  39 consent if they were to be doing it properly,  40 according to Wet'suwet'en law?  41 A   Yes.  42 Q   And would it be necessary from your point of view for  43 the employees to obtain your consent to be logging for  44 a white employer on your territory?  45 A   Yes.  The white man that would do the logging would  46 have to get my consent, but not so the Wet'suwet'en  47 employees, if the employer gets a consent from me. 3003  1 Q   Okay.  When you became Wah tah k'eght when you took --  2 when you became the chief, would you -- how much of  3 your territory at that time had been clear-cut logged?  4 Would you say that there had been a lot of clear-cut  5 logging or very little?  6 A   Yes.  At the time when I got the name Wah tah k'eght  7 and there was no clear-cut logging as yet, but Bill  8 Morris was doing selective logging around Ha ta lii  9 area.  10 THE INTERPRETER:  That's 492.  11 THE COURT:  Thank you.  12 MS. MANDELL:  13 Q   Now, if you could examine again Exhibit 164, and you  14 will notice that there's a small legend in the  15 right-hand side of the map where the last box says  16 "Logged and restocked".  Can you see that?  Here  17 there's a little box that says "Logged and restocked".  18 Can you see that?  19 A   Yes.  20 MS. MANDELL:  Now, I know that the map isn't very accurately  21 reflective of the original, which has indicated the  22 areas which have been logged and restocked, so I would  23 like to identify for you some of those blocks which  24 are more clearly shown in the original map.  It would  25 appear that virtually --  26 MR. PLANT:  Why don't you produce the original map and then we  27 can see them.  2 8 MS. MANDELL:  29 Q  If it becomes unclear or cumbersome I will do that,  30 but I think I can do this this way.  The original map  31 indicates that four of the areas which had been logged  32 along number 4, certainly the three large slash areas  33 along number 4, have all been logged and restocked.  34 Can you see where those slash areas are?  35 A   Yes.  36 Q   Could you describe for us what those areas look like?  37 A   It -- the area still looks the same as at the time  38 when they clear-cut logged in there.  It's just a lot  39 of underbrush has grown in there now.  40 Q   Okay.  In the area between Meed Creek and Gramophone  41 Creek, between our lines marked 3 and 4; can you see  42 the area I'm speaking about?  43 A   Yes.  44 Q   If you could first turn to the two large slash areas,  45 one which crosses line 3 and the second, which is  46 immediately above line 3 but slightly to the outside  47 of it to the north, do you see those two areas? 3004  1 A   Yes.  2 Q   Those areas have been marked "Logged and restocked".  3 What do those areas look like?  4 A   It hasn't changed much since they replanted the area,  5 and there again there's a lot of underbrush growing  6 there again.  7 Q   I wonder if you could tell us, what is underbrush?  8 A   Yes.  There's a lot of -- there's a lot of alder and  9 young poplar trees and willows --  10 Q   Um-hum?  11 A   Is growing there.  12 Q   And how high would those trees be at this stage, the  13 ones you're speaking of which you call underbrush?  14 A  When -- if you stand on one side it's over your head,  15 approximately ten feet high.  16 Q   And what kind of trees were taken out of that area?  17 A   Up in the higher area there was jackpine, but down in  18 the lower areas there was spruce and balsam.  19 THE COURT:  Shall we take the afternoon adjournment, please?  2 0 MS. MANDELL:  Thank you.  21 THE COURT:  Thank you.  22 THE REGISTRAR:  Order in court.  Court will recess.  23  2 4 (PROCEEDINGS ADJOURNED AT 3:00)  25  26 I hereby certify the foregoing to be  27 a true and accurate transcript of the  28 proceedings herein transcribed to the  29 best of my skill and ability  30  31  32  33  34 Graham D. Parker  35 Official Reporter  36 United Reporting Service Ltd.  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47 3005  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47 3005  1 (Proceedings resumed following short recess)  2 MS. MANDELL:  3 Q   Mr. Alfred, I would like to draw your attention to the  4 slash area on your number two line, the only slash  5 area that actually crosses the line, do you see what I  6 am referring to?  7 A   Yes.  8 Q   Looks a bit like a shield?  9 A   Yes.  10 Q   This is the area where the original map indicates that  11 the larger section of that, that area, has been logged  12 and re-stocked and there is an indication that the  13 small band on the top of that area, northern band, has  14 been logged in 1986.  I am only going to ask you to  15 speak to the area which actually has been logged and  16 re-stocked.  Do you see the southern portion of that  17 block that I am speaking about?  18 A   He is pointing at the shield part, the southern part.  19 Q   That's right.  Can you describe what that area looks  20 like?  21 A  When we were talking about them other areas earlier,  22 that area that you're referring to looks identical to  23 them other areas we talked about before.  24 Q   I would like to show to you --  25 THE COURT:  Does that mean the other areas that have ten foot  26 underbrush?  27 A   Yes.  2 8 MS. MANDELL:  29 Q   Is the underbrush ten feet in all of the areas,  30 approximately ten feet?  31 A   Some areas are taller and some are shorter, depending  32 on the area.  33 Q   Is there any area where the underbrush is taller than  34 ten feet that we have talked about already?  35 A  Where there is poplar growing, they are longer than  36 ten feet.  37 Q   I am showing to you a photograph -- my lord, if I  38 could hand up to you a volume of photographs and also  39 one to the court to mark as an exhibit.  At tab 8, can  40 you recognize the area which is shown in the  41 photograph?  42 A   The area you are looking at is G'etsa' lis.  43 THE COURT:  I didn't hear that.  44 MS. MANDELL:  There will be a Wet'suwet'en name provided, my  45 lord.  46 THE TRANSLATOR:  G-'e-t-s-a', 1-i-s .  47 THE COURT:  I am sorry, what is that?  The foreground, the 3006  1 mountains in the background or what?  That word.  2 A   They are standing in the area of G'etsa' lis, and  3 that's where the picture is taken, of the clear cut,  4 is taken facing south.  5 MS. MANDELL:  6 Q   Is G'etsa' lis the area where the picture is shown  7 from?  8 A   No, they are standing on it, I think.  9 Q   Is it the trail?  10 A   It's about right in here.  Looking east.  South.  11 MS. MANDELL:  My lord, if I could assist, it appears that  12 G'etsa' lis is approximately the place where the  13 cameraman would have been standing.  14 THE COURT:  All right.  Thank you.  Looking, I think the witness  15 said, south?  16 A   South.  17 MS. MANDELL:  That's correct.  18 THE COURT:  Thank you.  19 MS. MANDELL:  20 Q   Is this the same area which we have been talking about  21 on the line marked number two, which is shaped like a  22 shield?  23 A   That's the place.  24 Q   And does the photograph, then, accurately reflect the  25 appearance of the clear cut area at the front end of  26 the picture?  27 A   Yes.  28 Q   Is that what the place looks like today?  29 A   Yes.  30 MS. MANDELL:  I would ask that that picture be marked.  31 THE COURT:  All right.  Well, it has been brought to my  32 attention what I have been calling Exhibit 164 hasn't  33 been marked.  Just let me look back and see what  34 happened there.  35 THE REGISTRAR:   It's been entered, I just don't think it's been  3 6 stamped.  37 THE COURT:  All right.  Because I have it marked as 164.  38 THE REGISTRAR:  Yes.  39 THE COURT:  This picture will be 165 then.  40  41 (EXHIBIT 165:  PHOTOGRAPH)  42  43 THE COURT:  What are those mountains in the background?  That's  44 not Hudson's Bay Mountain, is it?  45 MS. MANDELL:  46 Q   The question is, what's the mountains there in the  47 background? 3007  1 A   That's Telkwa Range.  2 THE COURT:  The Telkwa Range.  Would the Hudson's Bay Mountain  3 be off to the right of this photograph?  4 A   The Hudson's Bay Mountain would be on your right.  5 THE COURT:  All right.  Thank you.  6 MS. MANDELL:  7 Q   There is a section, which I would now like you to look  8 at, which is to the west of the Bulkley River, within  9 the western side of your territory presently used by  10 Bazil Michell.  And it's north of Moricetown, it's a  11 fairly large block on the eastern boundary of your  12 territory; do you see the clear cut block I am  13 referring to?  14 A   Yes.  15 THE COURT:  The large area immediately east of the river?  16 Between the river and the highway?  17 MS. MANDELL:  It's between the river, yes, and the highway.  18 THE COURT:  Yes.  All right.  19 MS. MANDELL:  20 Q   Have you seen -- that area has also been marked logged  21 and re-stocked, have you visited that area recently?  22 A   Yes.  23 Q   And what does it look like?  24 A   In that area is unlike the area, there is a lot of  25 raspberry bushes there and there is no sign of any  26 re-stocking, you can't see it yet.  27 Q   All right.  And I'd lastly direct your attention to  28 the area which you have identified as having been  29 logged by the Moricetown Band, those areas by the  30 recent maps have been logged and re-stocked.  I wonder  31 if you could describe what those areas look like  32 today?  33 A   That also looks identical to the ones that we were  34 talking about earlier across the river, but upon  35 the -- up on the side hills, the growth there isn't as  36 good as the ones when you get down into the valleys  37 and gullies.  38 Q   All right.  When you say that the growth isn't as  39 good, what does that growth look like or that  40 re-growth?  41 A   This was just recently burned over so there is no sign  42 of growth there yet.  43 THE COURT:  Well, I am sorry, I have trouble with that.  I  44 thought it looked like the other areas that had ten  45 foot underbrush?  46 A   Down at the foot of the side hills, the underbrush is  47 thick there.  But on the side hills there is hardly 3008  1 any growth there yet.  2 THE COURT:  I see.  All right.  And it's the side hills that  3 were burnt?  4 A   Yes.  5 MS. MANDELL:  6 Q   What loss, if any, have you and your house suffered as  7 a result of the clear cut logging in your territory?  8 A  Where there has been clear cut logging, you are unable  9 to trap and hunt in there now, when -- like, the area  10 is closer to home there, but the only place you can be  11 successful in hunting and trapping is to go further  12 out than where the clear cut areas are.  13 Q   And has Wah Tah K'eght and your house suffered any  14 loss as a result of the taking of the trees from your  15 territory?  16 A   Yes.  17 Q   And can you describe what loss that is to you?  18 A   Yes, the loss would be that the area that was clear  19 cut logged there is no place to set traps and there is  20 no animals there now.  21 Q   Have there been any logging roads constructed in your  22 territory as a result of the clear cut logging which  23 has been done there by the non-Indian people?  24 A   Yes, there is roads into all the clear cut areas.  25 Q   And what effect has the construction and the operation  26 of those roads had on your territory?  27 A   Yes.  These roads put in there were just like an  28 invitation to the white people hunting in there.  29 Q   Have you and your house suffered as a result of the  30 white hunters which have been now coming into your  31 territory through the logging roads?  32 A   These white hunters that come into our territory do  33 not ask permission of us to come and hunt in there and  34 at this point we were unable to do anything because  35 the game warden sells them licence and tells them to  36 go in there.  37 Q   As chief of this territory, do you have any way of  38 keeping track of what resources the white people take  39 from your territory?  40 A   How could we keep track of them when there is -- they  41 go in there without our knowledge?  42 MS. MANDELL:  I wonder if you could put Exhibit 153 to the  43 witness.  It's contained in the photographs which were  44 put by the province defendant to Madeline Alfred.  45 THE COURT:  153 or 163?  46 MS. MANDELL:  153.  47 THE COURT:  What tab number is it, please? 3009  1 MS. MANDELL:  It's tab 9.  2 THE COURT:  Thank you.  Is that three —  3 MS. MANDELL:  Three silos.  4 THE COURT:  — silos?  Thank you.  5 MS. MANDELL:  6 Q   Can you identify the photographs?  7 A   Yes.  8 Q   What is it represented in the photograph?  9 A   That would be Terry Storey's oat bins.  10 Q   Are you familiar with the farm which Mr. Storey has?  11 A   No.  12 Q   Are you familiar with where it is?  13 A   It's right by the Highway 16.  14 Q   Is it on your territory?  15 A   It's on the territory, yes.  16 Q   What loss have you and your house suffered, if any, as  17 a result of the area used by Mr. Storey for his  18 operations?  19 MR. PLANT:  Before the witness answers that question, my lord,  20 this subject area of loss as a result of activities by  21 non-Wet'suwet'en people on the territory wasn't a  22 subject that was set out in the summary of Mr.  23 Alfred's evidence.  I am not going to take a position  24 on the evidence at this time.  It's not as though I am  25 surprised by it, having heard some of the same  26 evidence from the witness' mother, but I make the  27 comment in order to reinforce, if I might, the  28 importance of having a witness summary that gives some  29 idea of some of the areas that are being canvassed.  30 MS. MANDELL:  I appreciate my friend's point.  But the summary  31 was delivered before the evidence of Madeline Alfred  32 and these photographs were put to Mrs. Alfred by the  33 province defendant and it's on the basis of that  34 having been done that the evidence has now been  35 developed.  To the extent that we could have  36 anticipated my friend's photographs, we could have  37 possibly done more had we received his photographs  38 less than two days before we began the evidence of  39 Mrs. Alfred.  40 THE COURT:  As in most of these cases, you are both right.  41 MS. MANDELL:  We are both right, we are both wrong.  I know.  42 Thank you very much.  43 Q   The question then is what loss do you -- have you and  44 your house suffered, if any, as a result of the farm  45 which has been cleared by Mr. Storey?  46 A  As you can see, all the timbers and trees that were  47 taken out and then land clearing for farms have taken 3010  1 place, and they are making money, they are receiving  2 benefits from this activity but we don't receive  3 nothing from all that activity.  4 Q   Are you aware of how your ancestors used this land,  5 which is now occupied by Mr. Storey, before that land  6 was cleared for a farm?  7 A  My late uncle had told me that they had trails through  8 there leading to Ta begh Taii, and in some of the  9 areas were campsites and they were hunting as they  10 went along.  And as a result of these farms, there is  11 no more hunting areas any more.  12 MS. MANDELL:  If we could pause for a moment and get the  13 Wet'suwet'en name mentioned?  14 THE TRANSLATOR:  489.  15 MS. MANDELL:  16 Q   And your late uncle is that Peter Bazil?  17 A   Yes.  18 Q   Was the hunting hunting for moose?  19 A   Yes, when they are travelling through there, they  20 would hunt moose as they went along, when the --  21 before they get to their destination, which was their  22 main point.  23 MS. MANDELL:  I wonder if the witness could be shown Exhibit  24 156.  25 THE REGISTRAR:  156, tab 8, my lord.  2 6 THE COURT:  Thank you.  27 MS. MANDELL:  28 Q   Do you recognize the picture shown in that photograph?  29 A   Yes.  30 Q   And is that on your territory?  31 A   Yes.  32 Q   Do you know how your ancestors used that location  33 before there was placed on it the community hall?  34 THE COURT:  Well, it's at the same location as Storey's farm,  35 almost?  36 MS. MANDELL:  I don't think it is.  37 THE COURT:  Very near.  38 MS. MANDELL:  39 Q   Is it the same location as Storey's farm?  40 A   No, it's about two, three kilometres west that it's  41 located.  42 MS. MANDELL:  I hope that the evidence will show that there is a  43 difference --  44 THE COURT:  As long as there is.  Go ahead.  45 MS. MANDELL:  46 Q   The question is, then, how, to your knowledge, how did  47 your ancestors use this location before the placement 3011  there of the community hall?  Our ancestors had foot trails through there and when  they are going to their destination, they would hunt  for beaver along that area.  All right.  And apart from the hunting for beaver, was  there also creek fishing done in that area?  This was a long time ago.  They may have fished in the  creek but I don't know myself.  And who told you that it was an area where your  ancestors would hunt for beaver?  My mother told me all about that because she was a  part of that party that used to go through there and  Bazil also mentions and told me about the activities.  Is that Peter Bazil or Bazil Michell?  Peter Bazil.  What loss, then, did Wah Tah K'eght and your house  suffer as a result or do you continue to suffer as a  result of the community hall being placed there?  When the trail used to go through there, where our  ancestors travelled, where that hall is, even the hall  today, the white people are making money off that  hall.  Both with respect to the farm, which we saw portrayed  in Exhibit 153, and the community hall, now found at  Exhibit 156, to your knowledge, did Wah Tah K'eght  give consent for those areas to be taken over by white  people?  No, not of I know.  And has Wah Tah K'eght or the house received any  benefit by the areas which have been taken over by the  white people?  No.  I wonder if now you could turn to Exhibit 146.  34 THE COURT:  Tab 11?  35 MS. MANDELL:  Yes.  36 THE COURT:  It's tab 11.  37 MS. MANDELL:  Can you identify the photograph?  Trout Creek Store.  That is within your territory?  Yes.  To your knowledge, what use, if any, had your  ancestors made of the location where the Trout Creek  Store is presently situate today?  Yes.  That area where the store is, where our  ancestors used to camp there.  The place is called  S'aay K'e T'uk.  When they -- they camped there when  1  2  A  3  4  5  Q  6  7  A  8  9  Q  10  11  A  12  13  14  Q  15  A  16  Q  17  18  19  A  20  21  22  23  Q  24  25  26  27  28  A  29  Q  30  31  32  A  33  Q  38  Q  39  A  40  Q  41  A  42  Q  43  44  45  A  46  47 3012  1 they were travelling south.  2 MS. MANDELL:  3 Q   And who told you of this?  4 A   Yes, my uncle told me about it and he spoke about it  5 quite often and even today my mother still tells me  6 about it.  7 Q   That's your uncle Peter Bazil?  8 A   Yes.  9 Q   What loss has Wah Tah K'eght and your house suffered  10 as a result of the Trout Creek Store being there on  11 your territory?  12 A   That is the area where our ancestors used to set up  13 camp but now you see a store there and the white  14 people are benefitting from that and us we don't get  15 nothing out of it.  16 Q   Has Wah Tah K'eght given his consent to the placement  17 of that store on that spot, to your knowledge?  18 A   No.  19 MS. MANDELL:  I wonder if the witness can be shown Exhibit 151?  20 A photo of many things.  21 Q   Could you please first identify what it is that is  22 shown in that photograph?  23 A   Highway bridge across Brockton Creek.  24 Q   That is within your territory?  25 A   Yes.  26 Q   I would like to first address your attention to the  27 railway, which is or can be seen behind the bridge.  28 Can you see where the railway runs?  29 A   Yes.  30 Q   Are you familiar with the railway which runs through  31 your territory?  32 A   Yes, I am familiar that it runs along the creek there.  33 Q   And apart from the segment of the railway which is  34 able to be seen through this photograph, are you aware  35 that the railway runs throughout your territory and  36 other locations?  37 A   Yes.  38 Q   Could you advise what loss, if any, Wah Tah K'eght and  39 your house has suffered as a result of the railway  40 having been put through your territory?  41 A   Yes, where the railroad goes through, they either  42 destroy the beaver habitat by draining the dams or  43 either draining the dams or destroying the beaver all  44 at the same time.  45 Q   Are you -- can you advise some specific locations  46 within your territory where the beaver dams have been  47 destroyed or there has been draining done to the 3013  1 detriment of the beaver?  2 THE COURT:  I don't think -- if you don't mind, we will resume  3 tomorrow morning.  That sounds like that question may  4 lead to an extended answer.  5  6 (Proceedings adjourned to Tuesday February 2,  7 1988 at 10 o'clock a. m. )  8  9  10  11  12 I hereby certify the foregoing to be  13 a true and accurate transcript of the  14 proceedings herein to the best of my  15 skill and ability.  16  17  18  19  20  21 Wilf Roy  22 Official Reporter  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47

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