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Delgamuukw Trial Transcripts

[Proceedings of the Supreme Court of British Columbia 1988-03-16] British Columbia. Supreme Court Mar 16, 1988

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 4661  Proceedings  1 MARCH 16, 198 8  2 VANCOUVER, B.C.  3  4 (PROCEEDINGS COMMENCED AT 2:00 P.M.)  5  6 THE REGISTRAR:  Order in Court.  In the Supreme Court of British  7 Columbia, this Wednesday, March 16th, 1988.  Calling  8 Delgamuukw versus Her Majesty the Queen at bar, My  9 Lord.  I caution the witness and interpreter they are  10 both under oath.  11 MR. PLANT: My Lord, before my friend resumes his examination,  12 there are two matters of a housekeeping nature I  13 suppose I would like to speak to, if I may.  The first  14 is a question of a document of the plaintiffs.  15 Document number 5592 on the plaintiffs' list is  16 described as an audio tape in English, Stanley  17 Williams, Art Mathews and Neil Sterritt.  The date is  18 said to be November 23rd, 1982.  On December 14th my  19 colleague, Ms. Sigurdson, made a request of my friend,  2 0 Mr. Grant.  21 THE COURT:  What did you say the date of the document was?  22 MR. PLANT:  November 23rd, 1982 is the date given on the list,  23 My Lord.  2 4 THE COURT:  Thank you.  25 MR. PLANT: On December 14th of last year my colleague, Ms.  26 Sigurdson, wrote to Mr. Grant asking for a quotation  27 for the reproduction cost of that tape, and that  28 request was repeated on the 25th of January and again  29 on the 15th of February.  We haven't yet received any  30 replies -- any reply to any of those requests.  I am  31 concerned that the contents of that tape may bear upon  32 my cross-examination of Mr. Mathews.  Whether or not  33 that is so, I ask my friends for the production of  34 that now, in order that I might at least have some  35 opportunity to consider it before the  36 cross-examination of Mr. Mathews.  That is the first  37 matter.  38 THE COURT: I take it it's listed and no claim for privilege  3 9 made?  40 MR. PLANT:  There hasn't been in response to any of the three  41 letters that Ms. Sigurdson has sent.  42 THE COURT:  But wasn't claimed in the list as being privileged?  43 MR. PLANT:  There's been no -- the item appears on the list  44 without any indication of a claim of privilege.  The  45 three requests that we have made to date produce no  46 answer whatsoever, so --  47 THE COURT:  Yes.  All right. 4662  Proceedings  1  MR.  PLANT  2  3  4  5  THE  COURT  6  MR.  PLANT  7  8  MR.  GRANT  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  MR.  ADAMS  18  19  20  21  THE  COURT  22  23  24  25  MR.  ADAMS  26  27  28  29  30  THE  COURT  31  32  33  MR.  GRANT  34  THE  COURT  35  36  37  38  39  MR.  ADAMS  40  41  THE  COURT  42  43  MR.  PLANT  44  THE  COURT  45  MR.  PLANT  46  47  I'm not aware of what the status of that document  would be.  The second item has to do with the witness, James  Morrison, who --  Shall we deal with the video tape first?  I would be happy to.  I should say audio tape as I  understand it.  Yes.  My friend delivered a letter to me just before  we came into court referring to this matter.  This  matter has been in the hands of my colleague, Mr.  Adams, and the only comment I wish to make is that  this is -- that the request wasn't for an individual  document, for a very large series of audio and video  tapes which I have not had an opportunity to hear or  to see, but in any event, I think we will be able to  deal with it.  Mr. Adams can speak to the matter now.  I was pursuing inquiries with respect to this and  other documents referred to in my friend's  correspondence this morning, and I expect to give him  some kind of an answer tomorrow.  Is there any room for any dispute?  If you have  listed something that probably fits the definition of  the document, is he not entitled to have inspection of  it?  The difficulty has been figuring out where it's  physically located and getting the quotation that he  has asked for a number of times as to the cost of  duplicating.  That has been the hold up.  And that's  what I was pursuing this morning.  Well, is there time to have it duplicated now?  The  witness is in the box and presumably his evidence in  chief will come to an end someday.  I'm very optomistic of that, My Lord.  It seems to me that there is a practical problem  now.  How is your friend's request to be accommodated  during the short interval between now and, I assume,  will be a short interval between now and the  completion of the evidence in chief.  My Lord, as far as we can lay hands on it, we will  make it available to my friends.  I don't know if I can do anything more than that,  Mr. Plant.  No, I don't think you can, My Lord.  All right.  Thank you.  The second matter then relates to the witness, James  Morrison, who, as I understand it, is going to be the  witness after Joe Ryan, who is after the witness now 4663  Proceedings  1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  THE COURT  MR. PLANT  THE COURT  MR. PLANT  THE COURT  in the witness box.  The plaintiffs' counsel have  delivered a summary of his evidence, which I am just  going to read one paragraph from it, to identify the  concern I have.  The paragraph reads:  "James Morrison will testify about his chiefs  name Txaawok and the house of Txaawok.  He  will describe that the name is of the Wolf  Clan in Kitwancool.  He will set out the  chiefs of the House of Txaawok and the  responsibilities which he has to the house and  to the members of the house.  He will describe  the territory of Txaawok at Mezziadin Lake and  the harvesting of the resources on that  territory by his house members."  Two concerns arise out of that, My Lord.  Firstly, I  thought it might be advisable to try and get advance  discussion, if necessary, on what conceivable  relevance any of that evidence could have, given that  the Kitwancool chiefs are not parties to this action,  nor is any claim being made on their behalf.  Is he not a named plaintiff?  Not a named plaintiff.  And his house is not a plaintiff.  That's correct, so far as I am aware, although I  stand to be corrected on that.  In fact, so far as I  am aware, the name, Txaawok, does not appear in the  list of Kitwancool chiefs, which does appear in the  Statement of Claim in the paragraph which deals with  the existence of these chiefs and the fact that they  are not in the action.  That's paragraph 51.  All that  paragraph 51 does is define who the Kitwancool chiefs  are.  So the first problem I have is I don't see how that  evidence is at all relevant, and in particular I don't  see how any description of this -- that witness's  territory, which so far as I know lies outside the  boundaries of the territory claimed in this action,  can be relevant.  The second problem I have is that we don't have a  genealogy of Txaawok, and it would be my submission  that we would be entitled to that genealogy, as Mr.  Morrison is apparently a person of Gitksan origin.  That's -- those are the two concerns I have which I  wanted to raise with Your Lordship now.  Mr. Macaulay, do you have any submission on this? 4664  Proceedings  1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  THE COURT  MR. GRANT  THE COURT  MR. GRANT  MR. MACAULAY: Well, I usually make objections to the  admissibility of relevance of evidence when I start  hearing it.  We read the summary, I assumed that this  evidence had something to do with the overlap problem.  Now, how that will fit in with the plaintiffs' case is  not for me to say.  We'll see what develops and make  my objections then.  The witness has other evidence to  give.  All right. Thank you, Mr. Macaulay. Mr. Grant, do  you want to take what Mr. Plant said as notice, or do  you want to reply?  Maybe a little bit of both, My Lord.  Yes.  Firstly, I concur on this occasion with Mr.  Macaulay's comments that the scope and the reason why  that evidence is going to be adduced will become  apparent, and it probably will become apparent before  this witness is even completed his evidence.  And the  interconnections between those people, of course, if  there is some particular concern of relevance, I will  make a note of this and will discuss it with other  counsel and advice him of what Mr. Plant has raised.  On the other point about the genealogy, My Lord, is  that there is no genealogy prepared.  There has never  been a genealogy prepared for this person or his  house.  And as you indicated in previous rulings, of  course if we don't intend to introduce a genealogy in  evidence, we are not obligated to prepare it for the  defendants.  And my instructions at this point are  that there is no such genealogy, we don't intend to  prepare one for evidence, so there should -- there is  no obligation on us.  But with respect to the other point my friend raised  about territory and house membership, it's something  that I will be discussing with counsel, and I do take  it as notice, and I think it is appropriate that it  may be raised at the time.  This witness clearly --  even if the Court makes a ruling on these particular  points, this witness, the scope of his evidence is  very relevant, and my friends know that.  He is going  to discuss a number of territories and, I believe,  they have already received notice of that.  THE COURT:  All right.  Well, I don't think there is anything I  should say in this connection.  Mr. Plant has given  notice of a possibility that he will object to this  evidence when it's called, and when that happens I  expect to hear from Mr. Plant and possibly from Mr. 4665  A. Mathews (for Plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Grant  1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  MR.  THE  MR.  THE  MR.  THE  MR.  THE  MR.  Macaulay.   I don't remember precisely what I ruled  with respect to genealogy, so I'm not going to either  agree or disagree with what you said, Mr. Grant, I  just don't recall.  PLANT:  If I might say, I don't accept my friend's  characterization of Your Lordship's ruling.  COURT:  I'm not passing on it.  I'm not allowing silence to  be taken to be assent.  On the other hand, I don't  have sufficiently specific recollection to disagree  with Mr. Grant either.  MACAULAY: The genealogy matter stems from the character of  one of the expert reports.  The foundation of Your  Lordship's order related to the Gitksan genealogist --  genealogist of the Gitksan.  My -- we have a summary  of that genealogist report, and the summary reports  that these genealogies have been prepared and, of  course, they form an integral part of the report  itself.  Your Lordship ruled that individual  genealogies should be produced 14 days before any  given witness appears.  The plaintiffs are not relying  on a similar report or at least they aren't yet  relying on a similar report in the case of  Wet'suwet'en.  So that order of your -- I raised the  issue that that order in those circumstances not being  based on the -- an expert report, as no similar order  ought to be made with regard to the Wet'suwet'en.  I  suppose the genealogy of that witness -- Kitwancool  genealogy stands in the same footing as the  Wet'suwet'en.  COURT:  Thank you.  Ready to proceed, Mr. Grant?  GRANT:  Yes.  COURT:  Thank you.  GRANT:  The only point on that, My Lord, is that the  genealogy -- my friend's categorization was  genealogies of the plaintiffs, the Gitskan plaintiffs.  This witness is not a member of the plaintiffs' house.  Yes.  COURT  GRANT  Q  A  Yesterday, I believe it was, you described, Mr.  Mathews, the description of a nax nok performance at a  feast when you were young.  Do you recall what name  Wallace Morgan took at the feast that followed that  performance?  At the time of the performance he had other intentions  to take a name Tenimgyet, but after the performance  was carried out, the head chief from Kitwancool stood  up and announced his name as Ax tii hiikw.  So in 4666  A. Mathews (for Plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Grant  1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  great respect for the man and the head chief, one of  the head chiefs of Kitwancool, he then accepted the  name and would not embarrass the chief.  And then he  held the name Ax tii hiikw.  Q   Do you recall what chief that was of Kitwancool?  A   The chief's name in Kitwancool was Luuxoon.  Q   Number 45 on the plaintiffs' list, My Lord.  THE COURT:  That's a Kitwancool chief?  MR. GRANT:  Luxoon was a Kitwancool chief.  THE WITNESS:  Yes.  THE GRANT:  And he's 45 on the list of plaintiffs, list of  Gitksan and Wet'suwet'en.  THE COURT:  Yes.  All right.  What was the name given to this —  MR. GRANT:  Mr. Morgan.  THE WITNESS:   Axtii Hiikw.  THE COURT:  We had that three days ago.  Does it have a number?  THE TRANSLATOR:  477 on the word list.  MR. GRANT:  Q   And what was the name that he intended to take?  A   He told me he had intended the name Tenimgyet.  Q   Now, I would like to return to a more detailed  description or of the balance of what I may refer to  as the seasonal round or what your house members do  relating to your territory.  And to refresh your  memory, yesterday you were discussing the use of the  smoke house from the months of April to October, which  was used for fishing.  After the people leave the  smoke house, what next do the people of your house do?  A  We then -- I got into it yesterday as we went to the  top end.  When I say top end, from Wilson Creek.  COURT:  Mr. Grant, didn't we go through this yesterday?  GRANT:  I believe we only concluded at the end of the  fishing season.  THE COURT:  Oh, no.  I got him going picking berries in two  locations and then --  GRANT:  That's in August.  COURT:  And then back for some more fishing in September,  and then home to Gitwingax and then some trapping.  I'm sure I got all that yesterday.  MR. GRANT:  Yes.  Yes.  My Lord, the going and the picking of  the berries was the witness's evidence that that was  occurring in August, as I recall, and in August when  the pink salmon come up.  I'm not trying to go back to  that.  What I am referring to is after the closure,  and he described in detail the closure of the smoke  house, what they do after the closure of the smoke  house, which, as I understood, was in October.  Now,  THE  MR.  MR.  THE 4667  A. Mathews (for Plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Grant  1  2  3  4  THE COURT  5  MR. GRANT  6  7  8  THE COURT  9  MR. GRANT  10  11  Q  12  13  A  14  Q  15  16  A  17  18  19  20  Q  21  A  22  23  24  25  Q  26  A  27  Q  28  A  29  Q  30  31  32  A  33  Q  34  35  A  36  37  Q  38  A  39  40  41  42  43  Q  44  45  46  A  47  Q  he made -- he did make some reference to trapping in  the -- and they keep their traps there.  I was asking  him to describe what else they did.  :  Getting ready for sockeye in the spring.  :  Yes.  But, My Lord, with respect, it's from October  to the spring that I am canvassing with the witness  now, which I don't believe he gave evidence of.  :  All right.  Well, you go ahead then.  :  I'm certainly not trying to repeat yesterday's  evidence.  I was trying to get him to the point.  You indicated, I believe, in October the smoke houses  close down?  Yes.  And what do your house members do, then, after the  closure of the smoke house in October?  Besides the trapping, the hunting -- one of the  hunting things we do is we go up the mountain directly  above Wilson Creek to go hunt for goats.  These are  mountain goats we are after now.  What time of year is that?  We just -- just before we closed the smoke house we  were into another business now of going up to our  mountains that -- where goats are, and that was in the  middle or the end of August into September.  And have you done this yourself?  Yes, I have done this a number of times.  When was the last time you went up there?  Two years ago.  And on the map, which is Exhibit 349, there is a place  above Wilson Creek referred to as Sagat, S-a-g-a-t.  Is it in that area?  Yes.  Okay.  Can you tell the Court what you do when you go  up there?  Yes.  We -- I refer to all these mountains yesterday,  and --  Yes.  And we go up here towards Sagat.  there coming from Wilson Creek.  there -- there is trails here.  them.  I will go by them and go up straight to the  mountain of Sagat.  There is a trail showing from Wilson Creek up there  that goes on the right-hand side on Exhibit 349, that  dotted line.  Is that the trail you use?  Yes.  Go ahead.  We begin our hunt  We would go up  There is names for 4668  A. Mathews (for Plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Grant  1 A  And we would start here and then continue on top of  2 the mountains to this place we call Siiyuun.  3 MR. GRANT:   It's marked on Exhibit 349.  4 THE COURT:  Yes.  5 THE WITNESS:  And that's where the trails go.  And then from  6 Siiyuun we would go to Spaiyt muuxw.  And that's where  7 most of the goats are hunted.  8 MR. GRANT:  9 Q   Okay.  You see on the map another place called Ha  10 hlelpwit?  11 A   Yes.  12 Q   Is Ha hlelpwit between Siiyuun and Spaiyt muuxw?  13 A   Yes.  14 MR. GRANT:  Do you see those references?  Do you have a  15 reference for that for Spaiyt muuxw or Ha hlelpwit?  16 THE TRANSLATOR:  It's 389.  17 MR. GRANT:  Which number?  18 THE TRANSLATOR: 389.  19 MR. GRANT:  389 on the list.  2 0 Q   Go ahead, Mr. Mathews.  21 A  And we hunt goats here.  And we have to, when we hunt,  22 we are reminded of specific hunting laws we have to go  23 through, and the reminder comes from my dad, that we  24 should go through these laws or rules of hunting, you  25 might say, the laws of the goat hunt.  26 Q   Were you taught this by anyone besides your father?  27 A   Yes, by my three grandfathers, like I already said,  28 Geoffrey, Jack and Wallace.  29 Q   Morgan?  30 A  Morgan.  More so Jack, Jack Morgan, was always -- we  31 call him the camp cook because he always been with us  32 on every hunt until he died.  33 Q   Okay.  Can you tell the Court what those laws are that  34 you have to follow when you go on the hunt?  35 A   The first one is we -- depending on the hunting group,  36 we know we have to decide, and then we don't over  37 kill.  38 Q   Uh-huh.  39 A   The second one is the real dressing that has to be  40 done.  The raven was always there, as I pointed out  41 through the adaawk, Biis hoon.  So the second step is  42 never forget to feed the raven that are always around.  43 Q   Are the ravens always there when you get a kill?  44 A   Yes.  The other one is -- these are real top one.  The  45 next one I would say is never kill a mother sheep with  4 6 young ones.  47 Q   Uh-huh. 4669  A. Mathews (for Plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Grant  1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  A   The next one is that we, after field dressing, the  cuts, the hide, whatever that we do not need has to be  burned.  So our system that it is -- this is a must.  We have to burn all these lefts, for our belief in  reincarnation.  This is Biis hoon, like I said in the  the adaawk, Biis hoon.  And the third and the last --  Q   This would be the fifth one.  A   The fifth one would be the actual roasting of the head  of this -- the goat.  And it would be pointed at  directions within our territory to show thanks or  appreciation.  Q   What do you mean the goat's head is pointed in certain  directions?  Can you explain what you mean?  A   It is pointed in opposite directions.  Like if you're  holding your mountain here, it would be pointed at the  directions of the mountains that provided this goat.  And this is carried on from there.  From there we take  the goat down to the camp.  We set up camp and then  the de-boning starts.  We take the bones out because  it's not necessary to carry them for a great distance,  to de-bone all the meat.  An art on its own how to do  these.  And that's how the goat hunt is carried out.  Q   And the burning of the hide and the guts of the goat,  what you don't use, does that occur where the kill has  occurred?  A   Exactly.  Q   And the same with the head?  A   Yes.  Q   Okay.  And you indicated you were up there -- I think  you said two years ago you were hunting?  A   Yes.  Q   Who did you go with on that hunt?  A  Me.  When I say me, myself, two of my sons, Clark and  Michael.  Q   Yes.  A  Michael is the youngest.  At the time he was only 7  years old.  And my other son would be 9.  And my  brother, Ivan, and his son, Ivan junior.  My dad and  one of their grandson, Clayton.  Clayton?  Yes.  And Philip Daniels.  Sorry?  Philip Daniels.  Is that another person?  Yes.  And Mr. Glen Williams.  Q  A  THE COURT:  THE WITNESS  THE COURT:  THE WITNESS  MR. GRANT:  Q   Glen Williams  Yes. 4670  A. Mathews (for Plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Grant  1 A   He's one of the simoogit, Kitwancool.  Ax win desxw.  2 Q   That's his name?  3 A   His name from the house of Malii.  4 Q   Malii is M-a-1-i-i.  And can you give the spelling for  5 his other name, Mrs. Stephens?  6 THE TRANSLATOR:   Ax windesxw.  The name of Glen Williams is  7 A-x, underlined, w-i-n-d-e-s-x-w.  8 THE WITNESS: And Philip Daniels.  9 THE COURT:  That's Glen Williams, is it?  10 THE WITNESS:   Yes.  And Philip Daniels is of the house of Wixa  11 from Kitwancool.  12 MR. GRANT:  13 Q   That's number 81 on the list of plaintiffs and  14 Kitwancool chiefs.  I believe that's Exhibit 62.  15 A  And after the drying takes place and when we are ready  16 to go home, my dad would then divide the meat in  17 different piles.  The rules all the time that the  18 elderly divides equally.  When you shoot a goat, you  19 do not fight over it, it's all done in a lump sum.  20 When you are ready to go home, then you subdivide  21 equally, so nobody gets less or more than others.  22 Q   Now, what clan doe Glen Williams and Philip Daniels  23 belong to?  24 A   They are both of the Wolf Tribe from Kitwancool, two  25 different houses which I mentioned.  26 Q   Okay.  Did Clyde Williams go with you on that trip?  27 A   Yes, he's another member of the house.  Him and his  28 brother come from the same house, Malii.  29 Q   That's the house of Malii?  30 A   House of Malii, yes.  31 Q   And are you -- is Clyde Williams related to you at all  32 through marriage?  33 A   No, he is not related to me.  34 Q   Well, is he related to your house through marriage?  35 A   He is with my niece, yes.  36 Q   Okay.  And she's a member of your house?  37 A   Yes.  38 Q   Now, when you returned from that trip, who did you  39 share out meat with in the community?  40 A  When we actually get back to the village?  41 Q   Uh-huh.  42 A  After we get back to the village of Gitwingax, we  43 would then share it with the elders that cannot get  44 around, that stays home, that have no access.  Then  45 the sharing would take place.  First one we would go  46 to would be Sarah Benson.  47 Q   And what house is she from? 4671  A. Mathews (for Plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Grant  1 A   Yaxyak, I believe.  The house of Yaxyak.  2 Q   Number 90 on the plaintiff and witness list.  3 A   From Kitwancool.  I think -- I believe her name is  4 Tooxensxw, her own personal name.  5 THE TRANSLATOR:  That's 64.  6 MR. GRANT:   64 on the?  7 THE TRANSLATOR:  Plaintiff list.  8 MR. GRANT:  On the plaintiffs' list.  9 Q   Who else did you share with?  10 A  And some of these would go to my mother's side.  Her  11 wilxsileks on her side goes to Gitsegukla.  Christine  12 Wesley, that's Henry Wilson, and sister from, I  13 believe, Henry Wilson.  Niis noohl from the house of  14 Xsgoyimlaxha.  15 Q   And wilxsileks, do you have a spelling for that, a  16 number for that?  17 THE TRANSLATOR:  No.  Wilxsileks, w-i-1-x-s-i-l-e-k-s.  18 THE WITNESS:  And this is just a plural of wilksiwitxw.  More  19 than one.  2 0 MR. GRANT:  21 Q   Okay.  So in other words Christine Wesley is from your  22 mother's, father's side?  23 A   That's right.  24 Q   Okay.  Who else -- what other elders in your community  25 did you provide meat to on this trip?  26 A  We would do this and so would all the other hunters  27 that came.  I believe when Philip came with us he  28 would share it with his Dad, George Daniels.  Holds  2 9 the name Gasx.  30 Q   In what house?  31 A   The house of Guxsan.  32 Q   And that's the Fire Weed?  33 A   Fire Weed, Gitsegukla.  34 Q   And that's again on your mother's, father's side?  35 A   That's right.  36 MR. GRANT:  The spelling for that.  37 THE TRANSLATOR: Gasx.  G, underlined, a-s-x, underlined.  3 8 MR. GRANT:  39 Q   Do you recall any of the other elders in Gitwangax  40 that you provided meats to from this trip?  41 A   Fred Johnson.  42 Q   Number 40 on the plaintiffs' list.  43 A   Lelt.  When we give it to Lelt, it's a great privilege  44 for us to do it, because he's our 'Nii dii.  45 Q   Now, can you explain for the court when you refer to  46 Fred Johnson as your 'Nii dii, what that means?  47 A   'Nii dii in our language is the -- at the Frog tribes I don't think I got that one, Mr. Grant.  The word?  Yes.  Can you give that word.  4672  A. Mathews (for Plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Grant  1 in Gitwangax they would be the one sitting at the head  2 table, guests.  When you put up a feast, they are at  3 the head table.  They sit directly in front facing us.  4 And we are putting up -- we call 'Nii dii sitting  5 across from the table.  If you have the table and we  6 are serving, 'Nii dii means that.  'Nii dii in our  7 law, the feast law, if there was no 'Nii dii, feasts  8 was meaningless.  When I say feast or 'Nii dii, are  9 the very people that stamps approval of your feast.  10 THE COURT:  11 MR. GRANT:  12 THE COURT:  13 MR. GRANT:  14 THE TRANSLATOR:  353.  15 THE COURT:  Thank you.  16 MR. GRANT:  17 Q   You said that your 'Nii dii, I think you used the  18 term, gives the stamp of approval, or your 'Nii dii  19 must be present for the witnessing.  20 A   Yes.  21 Q   Can you explain why?  22 A  When you say why, I would assume you are talking about  23 his role in the feast.  24 Q   Yes.  25 A   That he -- 'Nii dii is the first speaker of a feast.  2 6 And when you tell your adaawk, and I have to -- I went  27 through that already, adaawk, and your territorial  28 boundaries, if they are complete and true, he will  29 then address it as true.  That's what I mean by  30 stamping and saying this is true.  There is no lie to  31 what you're saying.  32 Q   Now, why do you give some of the goat meat you catch  33 from your territory, a Wolf Clan territory, to Fred  34 Johnson, who I understand is a Frog chief, and as you  35 have described is your 'Nii dii?  Why do you give food  36 to him?  37 A   This is what we call in our language sharing, naa  38 hlimoot'.  And that all that means is sharing, helping  39 each other, helping.  That's the very rule, the very  40 existence of Gitksans, are helping each other.  The  41 naa hlimoot', whatever it is, the help, whether it be  42 a hunt, whether it be decision making or whether it be  43 in a role of -- like I already said, wilksiwitxw, we  44 play that role, so our sharing makes us Gitksan and  45 Wet'suwet'en.  46 Q   Did you provide meat from this trip to any of the  47 other elders of Gitwangax? 4673  A. Mathews (for Plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Grant  1 A   I haven't —  2 Q   We were talking about who you provided the goat meat  3 to.  Did you give it to any other persons?  4 A   It depends on how much we got, then we would give more  5 to more elders.  But these are two incidents I can  6 remember now.  7 Q   Now, you indicated that that happens in August or  8 September.  And going back to that October time, after  9 the closure of the smoke house, what do your house  10 members do?  Do they go back on the territory  11 immediately, or do they stay in Gitwangax for part of  12 the time then?  13 A   Depending -- my mother, we ask her, and then if she's  14 anxious, we would then go back to Tsihl Gwellii.  15 Q   That's your western territory?  16 A   Yes, to pick some cranberries when they appear to  17 start to ripen at the time.  18 Q   And what month is that in?  19 A   It's in October.  20 Q   Okay.  21 A  All through October there will be lots.  22 Q   Okay.  And then is there a time of the year when  23 you -- the people stay -- they come off the land and  24 stay off the land?  25 A   Only temporary.  26 Q   What time of year is that?  27 A   During the holidays, like Christmas, and very  28 important for us to go back if there is a death.  29 Everything stops, comes to a halt if there is a death  30 in the village.  That is the only time we go back.  We  31 maintain whatever we are doing.  Somebody has to stay  32 and stoke up the fire you might say.  But if it's the  33 summer -- we don't want to waste anything, so  34 everything comes to a stop.  If it was summer, nets  35 have to come out, if it was the summer.  If it was the  36 winter, we would go out and then take our traps, you  37 know, close, and don't leave them open, because that  38 is a very spiritual thing to us, is to go, like I said  39 before, naa hlimoot', to help, to comfort each other.  40 That is very Gitksan, a true Gitksan.  You do it and  41 Wet'suwet'en do it.  42 Q   What time of year did your grandfather, Geoffrey  43 Morgan, die?  44 A   He died at the end of July at the height of the  45 fishing.  We had a very good year, a bonanza year that  46 year, and we had to stop everything -- everything has  47 to stop.  When I say everything, I mean bang that next 4674  A. Mathews (for Plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Grant  1 day you just look after it.  All nets came out,  2 everything stops.  In our spiritual beliefs you do not  3 do these things, then a curse, like I said, siyen,  4 yesterday, would be upon you.  So we would do these  5 things.  I'm talking about our house.  6 Q   Yes.  And for how long do you stop?  Is this for a  7 week or until the funeral is over, or is this for any  8 longer period?  9 A  At the time of the death of Geoffrey we had to stop  10 for a month, because it was within our own house.  11 Q   And was anyone fishing in the month of August of that  12 year on your fishing grounds?  13 A   No, everything stopped.  14 Q   Did the berry picking stop in August of that year?  15 A   Like I said, everything stopped.  16 Q   Okay.  17 A  And then when this happens, the other people which we  18 helped then, in turn share with us what they have from  19 their territory.  20 Q   Okay.  21 A   Like some of our fruit at that time came from  22 Gitsegukla, I believe, from my mother, wilksiwitxw.  23 Q   That would be Guxsan's house?  24 A   Guxsan's house.  25 Q   Okay.  Now, in the -- you refered yesterday to hunting  26 and to trapping.  When do you start -- when does your  27 house member start your hunting and what -- I'm not  28 talking now about the goat hunting which you  29 described, but hunting for other animals.  30 A   For other animals, we would start with the moose.  31 Q   Uh-huh.  32 A   The moose in -- in our house we start at the first  33 week of November, and we would then end it in  34 December, because in December our elders -- the cow  35 moose are well underway.  36 Q   When you say you ended in December, is that the  37 beginning or the end of December?  38 A   The end of December.  And if you go more than past  39 December, that -- they stop, unless it was a matter of  40 great need, then you would grant such a permission to  41 anybody that wanted to hunt after that time within  42 your house.  43 Q   When you say you would grant permission, who would be  44 the one to grant permission to hunt after the end of  45 December for moose?  46 A   Either myself or my uncle, Ax tii hiikw.  47 Q   Around this time of year is there any special feast 4675  A. Mathews (for Plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Grant  1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  held by the Lax Gibuu or wolf clan of Gitwangax?  A   In December when the snow starts there is a feast.  We  call this -- when the feast -- when the snow starts  falling, other houses or maybe from our 'Nii dii or  whoever would then sound the cry throughout the  village to tell us to put up a feast.  Because what  happens, you see, the footprints of the wolves of the  first snowfall, so this person would holler and say  Xai mooksisim Lax Gibuu.  And all it says is that the  snow is there and you can see the footprints of the  wolves.  Q   And who attends this feast and what is it for?  A   It's -- if I can relate it, it's like a Thanksgiving  feast, and all things have to be put out and a special  dish is prepared to what we call Daiks.  MR. GRANT:  Do you have a spelling for that Daiks or a number?  THE TRANSLATOR:  342.  MR. GRANT:  Thank you. 342.  THE WITNESS:  I believe that other witnesses have explained what  Daiks is.  I don't think so.  THE COURT  MR. GRANT  Q  A  Q  A  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  I don't think so.  Daiks is when we take snow, oolichan grease and  berries and mix it together.  It's like an ice-cream.  It's a real tasty dish if you will try.  And is there other food given out at this feast  besides --  Yes.  All what you take off your territory, then these  feasts would be put up, and each -- if it was meat or  wherever you got the meat -- would announce where it  came from.  It's a show of wealth you would say, and  you would mention each name of your territories where  it came from.  And if it was given by wilksiwitxw, you  would mention that.  And like I said, that's why they  do while you are eating this, you digest it, it's  within you.  It's a spiritual belief that you mention  this, that part of the territory where it came from.  Who attends these feasts aside from -- well, the  members of the Wolf Clan put the feast on?  Yes.  Who attends the feast?  Just the villagers, like Ganeda, Gis k'aast.  Do people from Gitsegukla come to this feast?  No, this is community, this is the village.  Did your grandfathers describe to you whether this  type of feast occurred before the arrival of the white 4676  A. Mathews (for Plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Grant  1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  THE  MR.  MR.  THE  THE  THE  THE  THE  THE  THE  MR.  man?  A   This is done long time ago, many, many years.  This is  tradition.  This is before the coming of the white  man.  This is done year after year after year.  Q   Okay.  Now, yesterday you referred to trapping.  At  what month do you start going out on the territory for  trapping, and how long does that last?  A   Trapping would begin around the middle of November and  would continue right -- all through winter right 'til  around March, and around March the lakes and the  rivers start opening, and then they would go into  beaver at that time.  Q   Before the lakes and rivers open, what do you trap for  on the territory, or what is trapped for on your  territory?  A  What is trapped?  We mainly get after the marten and  the fisher and the lynx and the squirrels and the  weasels .  Q   Who does trap on your territories today?  A   I do at Xsi gwin ixstaat.  I have a trapline there.  Q   What about on --  A   I do some trapping there.  Q   Okay.  What about on Tsihl Gwelli?  A   Tsihl Gwelli, the top part now our -- my grandfather's  children, Rich, Willis and Ray, they trap through here  through amnigwootxw.  COURT:  I didn't get their names.  GRANT:  Willis, Richard and Ray, your grandfather's  children.  Q   And that was your grandfather Wallace?  A   Yes.  Q   And they trapped through amnigwootxw?  A   Yes.  GRANT:  Do you have a number for that?  COURT:  I'm sorry?  Wallace Morgan was it?  WITNESS:  Yes.  COURT:  Yes.  TRANSLATOR: I don't think it's on there.  Amnigwootxw,  a-m-n-i-g-w-o-o-t-x-w.  COURT:  And that's a location is it?  WITNESS:  No, it's a —  COURT:  GRANT:  Q  A  Q  I'm sorry?  Amnigwootxw is the children of the chief -- the former  chief of your house; is that right?  Yes.  Have they ever talked to you about whether or not they 4677  A. Mathews (for Plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Grant  1 could trap there?  2 A  We talk about it, yes.  They live right on the river,  3 and we confer each other, yes.  4 Q   Did they ask for your permission?  5 A   Not directly, but they do, yes.  6 Q   In the winter months is there any places on your  7 territory that you use to get fresh fish?  8 A   Yes, we got a small lake above Xsi gwin ixstaat smoke  9 house.  I don't know if it could be visible here on  10 this small map.  I haven't taken a real good look yet,  11 but there is a small lake that we call T'am ansa  12 maa'yaast.  13 Q   Go ahead.  14 A  Me?  15 Q   Yes.  Go ahead with your evidence.  She's recorded the  16 word.  17 A   Okay.  Thank you.  And when we would want fresh fish,  18 we would go to this lake and saw a hole in it, and we  19 would then -- not very deep, about three feet deep at  20 the most.  We would look for this and throw a little  21 piece of herring -- I mean fish eggs down there, and  22 it would drop to the bottom, and then we would take  23 these little gaps and cover our head so we won't get  24 the reflection.  The fish would come to that gap for  25 bait.  These are primarily -- Dolly Varden would do  26 those for lake trout.  27 Q   And do the members of your house still do this today?  2 8 A   Sometimes, yes, when we want to go there.  2 9 Q   Do you know what pine mushrooms are?  30 A   Yes.  31 Q   Are there any pine mushrooms on your territory?  32 A   Yes.  33 Q   Have you utilized the pine mushrooms at all?  34 A   Yes.  Just the last three -- two to three years I  35 would think these things -- these pine mushrooms have  36 been really valuable, and since the introduction to  37 the Japanese that they have been there all the time.  38 But now that presents itself as great value to us, now  39 that the Japanese want these.  And there are buyers  40 all over the country buying these pine mushrooms.  41 They are quite abundant down at our Xsi gwin ixstaat  42 area amongst the pines.  43 Q   And who picks them?  44 A  My brother, Ivan, went out to pick a few.  When I say  45 a few, they are quite valuable and they pay quite a  46 bit of money, and they are quite -- some of them are  47 quite large, and it doesn't take very much to make a 4678  A. Mathews (for Plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Grant  1 pound.  And I picked some.  My niece goes out to pick  2 s ome.  3 Q What's her name?  4 A Geraldine.  5 Q Yes.  That's your sister's daughter?  6 A Yes.  7 THE COURT:  What's her last name?  8 MR. GRANT:   Geraldine Shanoss, S-h-a-n-o-s-s, I believe.  9 THE WITNESS:  Yes.  10 Q   What about Emsley Morgan's children?  11 A   Yes, they were picking some there this year.  12 THE COURT:  Who please?  E-m —  13 MR. GRANT:  — s-l-e-y.  And those are the children that are  14 referred to on your genealogy as the children of Mable  15 Morgan?  16 THE WITNESS:   Yes.  17 MR. GRANT:   May be an appropriate time to break, My Lord.  18 THE COURT:  All right.  Thank you.  19  2 0 (PROCEEDINGS ADJOURNED FOR A SHORT RECESS)  21  22 I HEREBY CERTIFY THE FOREGOING TO  23 BE A TRUE AND ACCURATE TRANSCRIPT  24 OF THE PROCEEDINGS HEREIN TO THE  25 BEST OF MY SKILL AND ABILITY.  26  2 7    2 8 LORI OXLEY  2 9 OFFICIAL REPORTER  30 UNITED REPORTING SERVICE LTD.  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  4 7 (PROCEEDINGS RESUMED PURSUANT TO ADJOURNMENT) 4679  A. Mathews (for Plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Grant  1  2 THE REGISTRAR:  Ready to proceed, my lord.  3 MR. GRANT:  4 Q   Now, when we left for the break we were talking about  5 the pine mushroom.  And when did you say that that  6 became of value within your house?  7 A   It -- like I said, we just learned about this in the  8 last three years or so.  But this is the first year we  9 have actually picked them this year.  This -- the  10 buyers start putting their signs up all over the  11 country that they start buying these mushrooms around  12 the middle of August until snowfall, and then you see  13 the signs going down.  And like I say, they're quite  14 valuable, and there's abundance of them all over in  15 the trees.  Every territory I think has pine  16 mushrooms, and it's great abundance.  Like some of the  17 people in Kitwincool I hear now they have some of them  18 actually coming out 500 to a thousand dollars a day  19 picking these pine mushroom.  20 MR. GRANT:  Okay.  Just — just — I'll just interject.  The  21 sheet that I provided is in alphabetical order, and  22 it's under the sheet of N to replace the N sheet  23 alphabetically.  We'll have a numerical numbering  2 4 addendum.  25 THE COURT:  I see.  26 MR. GRANT:  So that's why the numbers don't seem to be —  27 Q   Mr. Mathews, when you learned of the value of the pine  28 mushrooms from your territory did this illuminate for  29 you any of the teachings that your grandfathers taught  30 you?  31 A   Yes, very much so.  Like I said, that I could  32 remember, and very plainly, and this phrase I did not  33 know what it mean before until I seen the emergence of  34 this mushroom that my grandfather Wallace when he was  35 talking to me, teaching me, said a phrase like I can  36 relate to in our language.  It's Nedii ap si skihl lax  37 yip? hoogyax ithl goop', nii limx sit, nii hlo'ot  38 loot', nii litxwit loot', nit gan wildim ama  39 gyaa'txwhl lax yipsa, which means --  4 0 THE COURT:  I'm sorry.  41 MR. GRANT:  It's number 485 on the phrase there, my lord.  It's  42 referred to there as 485 on that phrase.  It's a long  43 phrase.  44 Q   Can you explain what that phrase means?  45 THE COURT:  Yes.  All right.  46 A   It just means that your territory is not always flat,  47 they tell this, not as the features of the land I'm 4680  A. Mathews (for Plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Grant  1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  MR. GRANT  18  Q  19  A  20  Q  21  22  23  24  25  A  26  Q  27  28  29  A  30  31  32  33  Q  34  35  36  37  38  A  39  Q  40  A  41  Q  42  A  43  THE COURT  44  MR. GRANT  45  Q  46  47  A  talking about.  The very resources on it, it's not  always low.  It's like a wave.  It has its peaks.  If  you see down to the ocean down here you see waves, and  that's what he's saying here, your territory is not  always flat, but it has its peaks.  And so he said you  have to look after it.  And the general terms of look  after it in our ama gyaa'dihl, in our language, it  covers a wide span of meaning when you say ama  gyaa'dihl.  That means so your ownership, your  jurisdiction has to be upheld.  And this is why he  says it that -- my -- like I said, I could see that  for very probably from the twenties to the thirties  where it was at its peak for trapping and then the  decline when the trapping was out.  And now you could  start to see the upswing, so the introduction of these  mushrooms it's great value.  And that caretaking is ama gyaa'hl?  Ama gyaa'hl.  Taking care.  I think that's A-M-A, one word, G-Y-A-A —  Now, I'd like to move to another area of evidence,  and I'd like to refer you to tab 10, photographs  numbered -- yes, Exhibit 351.  Photograph numbered 36.  Do you recognize that photograph?  Yes.  And I'm going to refer you at the same time to Exhibit  349.  Can you indicate to the court where the tree is  located that's in that photograph on Exhibit 349?  This particular tree, like you see, has got a blaze.  Sometimes describing this tree that's got a blaze on  one side.  That is located at -- just at the top of  Sand Lake, Git axsol.  Dam git axsol we call them.  Okay.  Just for the record, you're just pointing to  the corner of the boundary on the eastern -- roughly  the eastern side of Exhibit 349 where that Dam git  axsol is marked, and it appears there's some other  little black mark there.  Is that another lake?  There is another lake there, yes.  Now, I just refer you to the photograph number 38.  Yes.  With the two persons in it.  Yes.  That is the lake behind here, in behind here.  :  38?  :  Photo 38.  And you're indicating through the trees in the  background you see some white?  Yes. 4681  A. Mathews (for Plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Grant  1 Q   Now, which of the two lakes is that?  2 A   It is the -- it narrows like so.  That's why you see  3 this white all around it.  And this is I think refer  4 to round lake they call it now, and in our language we  5 call it Dam alaalaa'.  6 MR. GRANT:   Do you have a spelling for that, Miss Stevens?  7 THE TRANSLATOR:  Dam alaalaa'.  D-A-M A-L-A-A-L-A-A-'.  8 MR. GRANT:  9 Q   Now, is that lake that's in the background through the  10 trees in photo 38 of Exhibit 351, is that inside or  11 outside your boundary?  12 A   It's on the outside.  13 Q   And is it the small round lake or the small dot?  14 A   Yes, it's the small lake.  15 Q   On Exhibit 349 at the very edge just outside your  16 boundary.  17 Now, going back to photo number 36, what does that  18 blaze demarcate for you as Tenimgyet?  19 A   This tree is our corner post of our territory.  That  20 marks the corner where on this side of the tree is  21 ours, where as unblaze is the Nishga part of the  22 corner.  23 Q   The unblazed?  24 A   Yes, on the other side of it.  25 Q   I see.  So the back of that tree?  26 A   The back of that tree, yes.  27 Q   Now, when did you first see this tree?  28 A   I first saw it when my grandfather Wallace Morgan took  29 me out here and told me this is our boundary.  Don't  30 ever go by this side.  Don't go past it 'cause it  31 doesn't belong to us.  This is where you stop.  That  32 is the -- our limits, you might say, within our  33 boundaries.  We can not go by it.  If we go by it we  34 would then be trespassing into somebody elses.  35 Q   And who was -- who did he say was on the other side?  36 A   He said that this belong to the Nishga.  37 Q   Okay.  Is there any other group whose boundary that  38 marks?  39 A   Yes.  This post he said indicates that the Nishgas  40 come up to the tree from the back side of the tree,  41 and on to the side of it belong to the Tsimxsan.  42 Q   Now, I'd like you to take Exhibit 349, the map, and if  43 you were -- if you can put -- well, it's so small that  44 if you could just put a T in the area where the  45 Tsimxsan would be, and an N in the area where the  46 Nishga would be in reference to that tree.  Just  47 approximately. 4682  A. Mathews (for Plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Grant  1 A   From what I've been told this very area up this side  2 would be the Nishgas and this particular tree, we take  3 this big area here, that's the Tsimxsans.  4 Q   Okay.  And you're referring in the area up to the  5 northwest as Nishga --  6 A   Yes.  7 Q   -- On that, and down below the name Dam git axsol,  8 that area would be Tsimxsans?  9 A   Tsimxsan.  10 Q   Okay.  Just for the record would you just put an N in  11 the area for the Nishga approximately.  12 A   That would be this here.  13 Q   And a T for the Tsimxsan on Exhibit 349, the underlay.  14 Now, there's a long lake marked on Exhibit 349  15 which I understand is Lava Lake.  And whose territory  16 is that in to your knowledge?  17 A  We call that Sii T'ax, and that is Nishga's territory.  18 MR. GRANT:  Do you have a spelling for the reporter of that?  19 THE TRANSLATOR:  Yes.  2 0    MR. GRANT:  21 Q   Now, you described a couple of days ago with reference  22 to Exhibit 349 an event that occurred while -- the  23 Biis hoon event, and you pointed out and showed  24 photographs, and you indicated it occurred on the far  25 side of the lake referred to as Dam Gitsum Geelum?  26 A   Yeah, Dam Gitsum Geelum in our language.  27 Q   Now, and you put a 1 there in fact on Exhibit 351  28 where that village Lax an dek' was.  And in whose  29 territory is it your understanding that Lax an dek' is  30 located?  31 A   It now belongs to the Tsimxsan.  32 Q   Can you explain to the court why it is now Tsimxsan  33 territory, and what happened that made -- what your  34 grandfather told you as to why your boundary is north  35 of there and goes up to Dam git axsol?  36 A  Well, what happened when they were living at this Git  37 lax an dek' -- Lax an dek', one year there was no fish  38 came up the Kitsum Kalum River, and what I'm saying  39 below it -- just below the -- below it going towards  40 Terrace.  41 Q   That's down at the bottom of the lake on Exhibit --  42 A   Yes.  One year they didn't have any fish so they sent  43 scouts along this river to investigate what happened,  44 and the scouts went out and came back and reported  45 there had been a slide in one of the ravines along  46 this river.  There had been a slide and it blocked off  47 quite a bit of this river so the fish could not get 4683  A. Mathews (for Plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Grant  1  2  3  4  5  6  7  MR.  GRANT  8  THE  TRANS  9  A  10  11  12  13  MR.  GRANT  14  Q  15  16  17  A  18  Q  19  A  20  21  22  Q  23  24  A  25  Q  26  A  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  MR.  GRANT  34  THE  COURT  35  A  36  THE  COURT  37  MR.  GRANT  38  39  40  THE  COURT  41  MR.  GRANT  42  Q  43  44  A  45  Q  46  A  47  Q  up.  So some of these people that lived in this great  big village, Lax an dek', came down and on --  unplugged.  You might say they started throwing and  clearing it out of the way.  And the name of that  person that was here, one of our relatives from Git  lax an dek', was 'Nii Algyax.  :  'Nii Algyax.  Do you have a spelling for that?  LATOR:  'Nii Algyax.  "N-I-I A-L-G-Y-A-X.  And after they cleared this 'Nii Algyax seen it was a  good place so he then started a village.  Now,  there -- and that's who we known today as the Kitsum  Kalum Band.  And you're pointing as you're talking to an area just  off Exhibit 351 and below Dam Gitsum Geelum, 351, is  that right?  Yes.  That's where these events took place.  Oh, 349.  And that's why we have relatives in the Kitsum Kalum  Band.  And I cannot speak to them for this so I'll  just leave it at that.  What happened about your ancestors, that is the  ancestors who became part of your house?  I was just going to come to it.  I'm sorry.  Bii Lax ha, his group, his house helped them to unplug  this slide in the river.  They stayed with them for  awhile, but then decided to move back.  And when I say  move back they went from where this river was plugged  they went up and started their own village at Dam git  axsol Lake at that little island that's on there.  We  call it Lax lilbax.  :  That's marked on 349.  You have it, my lord.  :  Well, Sand Lake, I take it was --  Yes, Sand Lakes.  :  Is the one up by the tree blaze -- the blazed tree?  :  That's right.  And there's a little arrow, a little  white out one might say.  It's an island, and there's  an arrow, Lax lilbax.  :  Yes.  That's where you're referring to there's an island in  the lake?  Yes.  Could I interject for a moment?  Sure.  Is there a photo of that in Exhibit 351 of that lake? 4684  A. Mathews (for Plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Grant  1  A  2  Q  3  4  5  6  A  7  8  9  THE  COURT  10  A  11  THE  COURT  12  A  13  MR.  GRANT  14  Q  15  16  17  18  A  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  Q  26  27  28  A  29  MR.  GRANT  30  THE  COURT  31  MR.  GRANT  32  33  MR.  PLANT  34  THE  COURT  35  MR.  GRANT  36  Q  37  A  38  39  40  Q  41  A  42  43  Q  44  A  45  46  47  You could see it here.  Indicating on photo 43, my lord, the middle ground,  and I'll just pull it out and you can mark it.  Can  you just put an L -- an L just above the island that  you're referring to?  It would be this -- this part of the island that's  just sticking up, and that's what we refer as Lax  lilbax.  That is the island --  Yeah, just part of it.  -- Where you marked the L?  Yeah.  Okay.  You put an L with green just above the island  on photo 43.  I'm sorry.  Go ahead with the history you were  just telling.  And when I was telling the story of Biis hoon, our  Adaawk Biis hoon, when these little cubs were growing  and they were getting bigger and bigger they got  meaner and meaner so the mother Biis hoon started her  village, 'cause these cubs couldn't get along with  other villagers so she started her village at this  very area here where we call Galtsaps Biis hoont.  And that's where that name -- and the arrow is  pointing to that name, that little sort of southern  trajectory of your territory?  Yes.  You have that on Exhibit 349, my lord.  Whereabouts?  It says Galtsaps, G-A-L-T-S-A-P-S, Xpilsoont,  X-P-I-L-S-O-O-N-T, and an arrow pointing on the --  It's down near Kitsum Kalum Lake.  Oh, yes.  Thank you, Mr. Plant.  Go ahead.  That's why Biis hoon had our village here.  And they  couldn't get along with the villagers I said so  eventually they had to dispose of these bear cubs.  The bears couldn't get along with the villagers?  Yeah.  So that's why they eventually had to destroy  these bears.  Yes.  And Biis hoon and his group lived here.  They -- when  I say they Bii Lax ha was on Lax lilbax and in  summertime they would come to Biis hoon's village to  put a trap, T'in to trap these fish, and they would 4685  A. Mathews (for Plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Grant  1 trap these fish.  And what they did was to make this  2 T'in they would carve human images like with the poles  3 that were going across the stream, and they had these  4 like totem images carved out of these poles stretching  5 across this creek.  And one night, 'cause this creek  6 is just small, one night for some reason or another  7 the river came up tremendously overnight, and what  8 happened was the pressure of the water, the river  9 going through these poles started to shake, and the  10 people that were living here when they were catching  11 fish, they left this village overnight thinking that  12 it was an animal or some warriors came to attack them.  13 So they went at night and camped right at the mouth of  14 Tsihl Gwelli.  15 Q   Right at the mouth?  16 A   Right where it flows into this right here, right at  17 the trail.  18 Q   Can you just put a 5 there?  19 A   It would be right by the mouth.  20 Q   So it would be right --  21 A   Right by the boundary.  22 Q   It's right on the boundary where Tsihl Gwelli comes  23 into the boundary -- comes into the places at the  24 boundary?  25 A   Yes.  26 Q   Yes.  27 A  And at the time in the morning they decided to leave  28 this area for awhile they knew their brother -- other  29 two brothers were living.  One was at Gwin ixstaat and  30 the one was at Angol hon.  These Bii Lax ha, Biis  31 hoon, Hatee (phonetic) decided to go here.  32 Q   You're indicating crossing over to Gwin ixstaat and  33 then Angol hon?  34 A   Yes.  They were going to Gwin ixstaat.  And one of our  35 relatives 'Niis 'yook' didn't go with him.  He went  36 down towards the Nass.  That's why we have relatives  37 at the Nass River.  And Spookw went all the way to  38 Hagwilget.  39 Q   From this area?  40 A   From this area.  That's how we got relatives at  41 Hagwilget living together.  That was the beginning.  42 That's how they might say dismantled this great  43 village that they had at -- at the -- from here at Git  44 lax an dek' now no longer existed, but then they  45 subdivide this territory in three -- three groups now.  4 6 'Nii Algyax went down.  When I say down that now is  47 known as the Kalum Band.  And 'Niis 'yook', one of our 4686  A. Mathews (for Plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Grant  1 relatives went down to the Nass, and Bii Lax ha, Biis  2 hoon went with their brother at Gwin ixstaat, and  3 that's where we are today.  4 Q   And 'Niis 'yook', do you consider him and his group  5 Nishga today?  6 A   That's where they went, and that's where they are  7 today, and we considered them as relatives at the  8 Nass.  9 Q   Okay.  Now, I just like to show you two other  10 photographs.  You're finished for the moment?  11 A   Yes.  12 Q   Thank you.  Photograph 32.  This is again an exhibit.  13 32 and 34.  The bottom two photographs on that sheet,  14 do you recognize -- which shows a water course of some  15 sort.  16 A   Yes.  17 Q   Do you recognize that?  18 A   Yes.  In our language we call this little creek Gisihl  19 iit.  20 MR. GRANT:  You're indicating on 34.  Do you have a spelling for  21 that?  22 THE TRANSLATOR:  Is it on here?  23 A   Gisihl iit.  24 THE TRANSLATOR:  Gisihl iit.  G-I-S-I-H-L.  25 THE COURT:  I'm sorry.  G-I —  26 THE TRANSLATOR:  I-S-I-H-L I-I-T.  27 A  And that means that berries grow along these bank and  28 there are numbers of berries grow around.  They look  29 like black currents.  The plants look like them and  30 smell like them.  That's what the name of these  31 berries are, hliit.  32 MR. GRANT:  33 Q   Where is that in relation to your boundary, the  34 western boundary of your western territory?  35 A   That's this along this black line that follows.  We  36 know now as our boundary Gisihl iit is our boundary.  37 Q   Now, this is the boundary of the western boundary, and  38 you pointed along from the area of La lax oo, L-A  39 L-A-X O-O, all the way down to the area called  40 Galtsaps Biis hoont on Exhibit 349?  41 A   Yes.  42 Q   And what about exhibit photo 32, that water course?  43 A   That's the same.  44 Q   That's another view of the same boundary?  45 A   Yes.  And if we were looking at this photo --  46 Q   34?  47 A   34.  If the river was coming down, coming at you 4687  A. Mathews (for Plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Grant  1  2  Q  3  A  4  5  Q  6  A  7  Q  8  A  9  10  Q  11  12  13  A  14  Q  15  A  16  MR. GRANT  17  18  THE COURT  19  20  MR. GRANT  21  A  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  Q  29  30  A  31  32  33  34  35  36  Q  37  A  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  looking at the picture.  Yes.  Our boundary would be on this side, and it's Tsimxsans  on that side.  If you were looking at this picture --  32.  -- The river is running from left to right.  32.  And we were standing on Tsimxsan and looking across is  our territory.  Okay.  Okay.  Can you just put -- just so it's clear  for the record can you put on photo 32 a G for where  your side is and T for where the Tsimxsan side is?  T?  For Tsimxsan side.  And G?  :  Yes.  Just as you've described.  Were you able to  follow that, my lord?  :  Yes.  On photograph 32 that's logging off in the  distance, is it?  :  Yes.  And that's how it is today.  And more recently our  people -- when I say our -- our house, members of our  group and our chiefs go back and forth regularly to  this territory.  As matter of fact one time I've  described the trails, and I don't think I can just  relate, and you could follow the trail I've described  it twice already.  That was the trail of the starvation that you  described yesterday?  Yes.  And that's a well beaten trail.  One time some  of our people were lonesome to go back to Tsihl  Gwellii.  They would go back here and then up towards  Lax lilbax on Sand Lake.  One time one of our members  went over the boundary, which I showed you, to visit.  We had relatives there.  'Niis 'yook'.  That was over where the tree marker is?  Yes.  And he was going to visit, and he never came  back.  They missed him.  And the next day early in the  morning they were gonna send out some people to look  for search for him, and they found him floating --  killed and was floating at the head of this lake.  The  Nishga had killed him for trespassing.  They decided  and did bury the remains on the island of Lax lilbax.  The chief spoke at the time and says that our  ancestor, the guy that he killed, bones, his remains  are going to be buried on this Lax lilbax, and these  bones are going to be here to look after our 4688  A. Mathews (for Plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Grant  1 boundaries.  Therefore the Nishgas would appreciate  2 our boundaries by killing this man and throwing him  3 back on our own side.  4 Q   This event of this killing, was it -- was this told to  5 you by your grandfather?  6 A   Yes.  7 Q   And did this happen before or after the arrival of the  8 non-Indians?  9 A   This is quite recent I would say, 'cause they told me  10 that Reverend Thompson and some -- I didn't gather the  11 first name, but he said Reverend Thompson and another  12 person tried to exhume the body to inspect how he had  13 died, but it was too badly decomposed to get anything  14 out of it.  15 Q   Now, I just like to refer you to photo 44.  In that  16 photograph can you see where -- can you tell the court  17 what that photograph is on the -- on the right hand  18 side is a water -- body of water, and can you tell the  19 court what that is, and if -- yes.  20 A   This is the part of the lake.  21 Q   Is that Sand Lake?  22 A   Sand Lake where they had found the body in and around  23 this area.  24 Q   Can you just put a 1 in the area that you were told  25 the body was found around?  26 A   Yes.  When we went to see the boundary they showed me  27 this area is where they had found the body, in this  28 general area here.  29 Q   Okay.  Now, can you -- it's very dark, and I see  30 there's some construction equipment.  Can you indicate  31 to the court if the area where the tree that is shown  32 in photo 36 and 39, that's the same tree in those two  33 photos?  34 A   Yes.  35 Q   Where that tree is in that photograph --  36 A   It would be in this general direction just off the  37 road here, just behind this equipment that's standing  38 here.  It would be in that general direction here just  39 off the road.  40 Q   Okay.  Can we then point an arrow in that direction.  41 Would this be correct in that area?  42 A   Yes.  Just off the road and this general -- just  43 beside this piece of equipment sitting here.  44 Q   And you saw where the location of the body was.  45 That's where the 1 is.  4 6 You know Richard Morgan?  47 A   Yes.  He's right here in the courtroom in the -- 4689  A. Mathews (for Plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Grant  1 Q   And he is the -- he is the son of, or one of the sons  2 I guess of Wallace Morgan, your grandfather?  3 A   Yes.  4 Q   And he was born on March 27th, 1928?  5 A   Yes.  6 Q   Can you tell the court where Richard Morgan --  7 THE COURT:  1948?  8 MR. GRANT:  1928.  9 THE COURT:  '28.  10 MR. GRANT:  11 Q   Can you tell the court where Richard was born?  12 A   He was born on Lax lilbax.  13 Q   You're pointing to the photograph --  14 A   Yes.  15 Q   -- In which you identified Lax lilbax before?  16 A   Yes.  17 THE COURT:  That's Sand Lake?  18 MR. GRANT:  Lax lilbax is the island on Sand Lake, yes.  19 THE COURT:  Oh.  20 MR. GRANT:  Just for the record, my lord, you can see the name  21 on 349, Dam git axsol.  That's the Gitksan name.  And  22 Lax lilbax is the name for the island.  23 Q   Is that correct?  24 A   That's correct.  25 Q   Just the -- you referred to the fact that Spookw went  26 to Hagwilget.  Is this the Spookw -- you know Dora  27 Wilson-Kenni?  28 A   Yes.  29 Q   Is this the same Spookw of which she belongs to the  30 house of?  31 A   Yes.  Yeah, we call them our relatives even today.  He  32 calls me my brother and I call her my sister.  33 Q   And —  34 THE COURT:  Who's your relative, Spookw, or Dora Wilson-Kenni,  35 or both?  36 A   Both of them.  They are from the same house which I  37 come from.  That's stemming from the Git lax an dek'  38 group.  39 Q   Okay.  Now, if you refer to tab 3 --  40 THE REGISTRAR:  Exhibit 348.  41 MR. GRANT:  Yes.  Thank you.  Exhibit 348.  42 Q   I note that next to you is Bii lax ha, and next to him  43 is 'Wii hloots'?  44 A   Yes.  45 Q   When did Bii lax ha start to sit next to Tenimgyet in  46 relation to what you just described?  47 A  When they got back, which I have indicated through the 4690  A. Mathews (for Plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Grant  1 map they went over and came into the House of  2 Tenimgyet.  That's why they amalgamated now.  There  3 was three houses.  They're now that combined as one.  4 Like I have told 'Wii hloots' Adaawk, and I told the  5 Bii lax ha Adaawk, of this migration that happened,  6 and they came into the House of Tenimgyet.  That's why  7 Tenimgyet is the head of them.  8 Q   And when they came over was Axtii hiikw already with  9 Tenimgyet or did he come over with Bii lax ha?  10 A   They came together, like I said.  11 THE COURT:  Is this a convenient time, Mr. Grant?  12 MR. GRANT:  Yes.  I just wanted to -- I was just consulting for  13 a moment in case there was anything so I don't have to  14 return to this area.  15 Q   In -- can you give the court an indication of when  16 this migration, that is Bii lax ha moving to your  17 area, and 'Niis 'yook' moving to the Nass, when did  18 that occur in relation to let us say the arrival of  19 the white man?  20 A   It occurred before the arrival of the white man.  21 THE COURT:  And the amalgamation of these two houses took  22 place --  23 A   Yes.  24 THE COURT:  -- Following the migration and before the arrival of  25 the white man?  26 A   Yes.  Yes.  All right.  This is a convenient time, my lord.  All right.  Thank you.  Ten o'clock, please.  30 THE REGISTRAR:  Order in court.  Court will adjourn to 10:00  31 a.m. tomorrow.  32  33 (PROCEEDINGS ADJOURNED TO MARCH 17, 1988 AT 10:00 A.M.)  34  35 I hereby certify the foregoing to be  36 a true and accurate transcript of the  37 proceedings herein to the best of my  38 skill and ability.  39  40  41    42 Peri McHale, Official Reporter  43 UNITED REPORTING SERVICE LTD.  44  45  46  47  2 7 THE COURT  2 8 MR. GRANT  2 9    THE COURT

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