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Delgamuukw Trial Transcripts

[Proceedings of the Supreme Court of British Columbia 1988-01-20] British Columbia. Supreme Court Jan 20, 1988

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 2838  1 JANUARY 20, 198 8  2 VANCOUVER, B.C.  3  4 THE REGISTRAR:  Calling Delgamuukw against Her Majesty the  5 Queen.  6 MR. PLANT: Before I continue my cross-examination, there was one  7 extremely brief matter that I was going to ask my  8 friend -- my colleague, Mr. MacKenzie, speak to.  9 THE COURT:  Yes, Mr. MacKenzie.  10 MR. MACKENZIE:  Thank you, My Lord.  As Your Lordship will  11 recall, on January 7 the plaintiffs made an  12 application for -- that the crown provincial pay costs  13 for the original trial transcripts, and Mr. Rush  14 raised that question the day before yesterday.  And we  15 understand that Your Lordship is now taking that  16 matter under consideration.  17 That application appears in the trial transcript,  18 Volume 36, starting at page 2315, My Lord.  And at  19 page 2318 at line 23 Mr. Goldie responded to the  20 application generally, saying, at line 23, that there  21 was some basis for belief on our part that there was  22 an understanding that there would be an one-third,  23 one-third, one-third division.  What I have to hand up  24 to Your Lordship now are two letters in November  25 relating to that agreement, really setting forth the  26 basis of the agreement, as mentioned by Mr. Goldie,  27 for Your Lordship's assistance.  One is a letter of  28 November 9 from the -- Mr. Roy of United Reporting  29 Service to Russell & Dumoulin, and the second is a  30 letter of November 13, 1987 from me to Mr. Roy in  31 response, setting out our agreement to share on the  32 one-third billing basis.  33 THE COURT:  Do these add anything to what Mr. Goldie said?  34 MR. MACKENZIE:  My Lord, Mr. Goldie has requested that we — and  35 I advised my friend Mr. Rush that we will provide them  36 to Your Lordship for Your Lordship's assistance, as an  37 indication of Mr. Goldie's point that there was some  38 basis for agreement, and also to give Your Lordship  39 the context of the dates at which these things were  40 discussed.  41 THE COURT:  All right.  Thank you.  Anything else you want to  42 say, Mr. Rush?  43 MR. RUSH:  Only that you will note that this letter is from Mr.  44 MacKenzie to Mr. Roy setting out Mr. MacKenzie's views  45 of things and Mr. Roy's letter in response.  My  46 understanding is that Mr. Grant, subsequent to this  47 letter exchange, then wrote to Mr. Roy, copied to Mr. 1  2  3  4  5  6  7  THE  COURT  8  9  10  MR.  RUSH:  11  12  13  THE  COURT  14  15  MR.  RUSH:  16  THE  COURT  17  18  19  MR.  RUSH:  20  THE  COURT  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  MR.  PLANT  31  THE  COURT  32  33  CROSS EXA  34  35  Q  36  37  A  38  Q  39  A  40  41  Q  42  43  A  44  45  MR.  PLANT  46  47  THE  COURT  2839  MacKenzie and Mr. Goldie, setting out what it was that  Mr. Grant's view of the situation was, and you don't  have the correspondence of Mr. Grant.  If this is  going to be presented to you as -- and form part of  your consideration on the argument, then I would like  you to have Mr. Grant's correspondence as well.  :  Well, I understood Mr. Grant and Mr. Goldie both  agreed before me that there was an one-third  allocation arrangement in place.  On certain items.  I don't think that there had ever  been any agreement with regard to trial transcripts  for the recommencement of the trial.  :  All right.  Well, then, I should see what Mr. Grant  has said in reply to this.  Yes.  :  I haven't reviewed this -- these passages in the  evidence, which I hope to do in the next day or so,  but can you get me that letter as soon as you can?  Yes.  :  Yes.  Gentlemen, I am sorry that I have to tell you  that I have a -- I was going to say a request, but it  might sound like a citation to appear at the Law  Society at 12 o'clock today for a meeting they are  having in connection with the Deputy Attorney  General's Justice Reform Committee Survey, and I'll  have to leave here today at 12 o'clock.  Thank you.  All right.  I haven't yet agreed that they would cite  me, but they apparently want to talk me, and I have to  go and have lunch with them.  :  I hope you will be back in the afternoon.  :  I hope I am.  EXAMINATION BY MR. PLANT, Continued:  Mrs. Alfred, have you ever heard of a place called  Blunt Creek, B-1-u-n-t?  No.  Do you know where Sylvester William used to trap?  I know he was trapping over there, but I don't know  the name of the place.  When you say "over there", where are you talking  about?  That would be north of K'aaz kwe.  Used to go with his  grandfather who was Gilseyhu.  :   Does Your Lord have the spelling, K'aaz kwe and  Gilseyhu?  :  Yes.  I wonder if counsel agrees, k-w-u-n -- or is 1  2  3 MR.  PLANT  4  5 MR.  RUSH:  6 THE  COURT  7 MR.  PLANT  8  Q  9  10  11  A  12  Q  13  14  A  15  Q  16  A  17  Q  18  A  19  Q  20  21  A  22  Q  23  A  24  25  Q  26  27  A  28  29  Q  30  31  A  32  33  Q  34  A  35  Q  36  A  37  Q  38  A  39  40  Q  41  42  A  43  Q  44  45  46  47  2840  it "h", as shown on this map?  Is that the equivalent  of k-w-e?  It's Exhibit 84.  :  Yes, I have been taking that as another way of  spelling that word.  Yes, k-w-e, which means creek.  :  Yes, that's what I thought.  Thank you.  Mrs. Alfred, you told us that Kun g'it t'ukw was a  place to pick huckleberries?  And my spelling for that  is K-u-n, g'-i-t, t-'u-k-w.  Yes.  Can you tell me where that place is in relation to  Moricetown, please?  It's sticking -- sticking up above Moricetown.  Is it on the village side of the river?  Yes.  Is it right near Moricetown?  Yes.  Are you able to say if it's north or west or south of  the village?  It would be in a westerly direction.  Is it just behind the village?  It would be a more southerly direction behind  Moricetown.  Is that a place where all of the people of Moricetown  are permitted to go and pick huckleberries?  Yes.  Even a long time ago all the villagers used to  go and pick berries there.  You told us that sometimes you go to pick berries at a  further area towards Chapman Lake.  There is a barn out there where we used to pick  berries.  Have you been out there recently to pick berries?  Yes, we've been picking up berries up there sometimes.  In the last -- excuse me.  Just recently.  Is that in an area where logging has taken place?  Yes, where there is some huckleberry bushes growing  there.  The huckleberry bushes grow in the area that's being  logged off and burned?  Yes.  You have talked about helping your mother dry berries  with a wild cabbage leaf that you get near Cow Hill.  And I believe the Wet'suwet'en name for Cow Hill is  Hag'il tzil yiih.  And rather than spell it, I'll ask  if there is a number.  My spelling is h-a-g'-i-l, 2841  1 t-z-i-1, y-i-i-h.  My question for you, Mrs. Alfred,  2 is Cow Hill near Moricetown?  3 A   Yes.  4 Q   Is it on the village side of the Bulkley River?  5 A   Yes.  6 Q   And is it north or west or south of the village?  7 A   Yes, Cow Hill would be south, and that's a place  8 called Hag'il tzil yiih.  9 Q   Hag'il tzil yiih is the name in Wet'suwet'en for Cow  10 Hill?  11 A   Yes.  12 MR. RUSH:  Is there a number for that, Mr. Mitchell?  13 THE INTERPRETER:  Yes, 496.  14 MR. PLANT:  15 Q   Mrs. Alfred, do you know where the railroad siding at  16 Doughty is?  I'm sorry, the railroad -- do you know  17 the station at Doughty, the place where the train used  18 to stop?  19 A   Yes, there used to be a station there, but it's not  2 0 there anymore.  21 Q   Where is Cow Hill in relation to Doughty?  22 A   There is a hill that's just before -- close to  23 Moricetown.  Would be south of Moricetown.  It would  24 be closer to Moricetown rather than Doughty.  25 Q   Is Cow Hill a place where all the people of Moricetown  26 could go to pick wild cabbage leaf?  27 A   Yes.  28 Q   You told us about a plant called devil's club which  29 had the name Whuus, W-h-u-u-s.  I think that has a  30 number.  31 THE INTERPRETER:  What is the right spelling?  32 MR. PLANT:  I took that spelling from page 2659 of the  33 transcript.  34 Q   Devil's club grows around the village of Moricetown?  35 A   Yes.  It would be up towards the hills.  It grows all  36 around the village in Moricetown.  37 Q   Do all of the people who live in Moricetown, are they  38 all allowed to go up and pick devil's club from the  39 hills around Moricetown?  40 A   Yes.  41 Q   Does it matter which clan they belong to?  42 A   Yes, because it is used for medicine, which they  43 would -- sometimes they would burn it and have -- they  44 would let the smell from that -- aroma from that rise  45 in a house for medicine reasons.  46 Q   Let me ask this.  Do the villagers from all of the  47 different clans in Moricetown go to pick devil's club 2842  1 in the hills around the village?  2 A   Devil's club, they grow all over the place.  They not  3 only get it from around Moricetown, they go out on  4 their own territories sometimes to get the devil's  5 club.  6 Q   Sometimes people from different clans take their  7 devil's club from the hills around Moricetown; is that  8 correct?  9 A   Yes.  If they are in the village in the summertime,  10 they would get it from around the village where it's  11 handy.  12 Q   Now, there is a lake behind Moricetown that has a name  13 Tats'ekex, something to that effect.  14 THE INTERPRETER:  369.  15 THE COURT:  Sorry?  16 THE INTERPRETER:  369.  17 THE COURT: Thank you.  18 MR. PLANT:  19 Q   Is that lake close to Moricetown on the village side  20 of the river?  21 A   Yes, it's almost right beside it.  22 Q   Do people from Moricetown use that lake?  23 A   Yes, they use it.  The children go swimming there.  24 Q   Do all the children of the village have the right to  25 go swimming there?  26 A   Yes, they all go there.  27 Q   Do the people from Moricetown do anything else at that  28 lake?  2 9       A   No.  30 Q   Now, on the other side of the river there is a lake  31 called Duck Wing Lake on the government maps.  Have  32 you ever heard of Duck Wing Lake, Mrs. Alfred?  33 A   Yes, I know that lake.  It's the one Wet'suwet'en  34 called Duh deek'etsa k'uk.  35 MR. PLANT:  Is that number 370, Mr. Mitchell?  36 THE INTERPRETER:  No.  Duh deek'etsa k'uk.  D-u-h,  37 d-e-e-k'e-t-s-a, k'-u-k.  3 8 MR. PLANT:  39 Q   Is that lake across the Bulkley from the village?  40 A   It's across the village from the village.  41 Q   Across the river from the village?  42 A   Yes.  43 Q   I understand that there are two or three little lakes  44 across the village -- across the river from the  45 village?  46 A   Yes.  47 Q   Do the people from Moricetown use those lakes? 2843  1 A   No.  2 Q   You have told us about a plant that is used for making  3 tea, and my reading of it would be Le dii mis giik'.  4 I don't have a number for it.  I do have the spelling  5 from page 2660 of the transcript.  6 THE INTERPRETER:  497.  7 THE WITNESS:   Yes, that's it.  8 MR. PLANT:  9 Q   And I think you said that you usually get that plant  10 from a swamp from Bii yis Ghees Niinlii?  11 A   Yes.  12 Q   And that's a creek?  13 A   Yes.  14 Q   That's a creek on the territory of Wahtah k'eght.  15 Have you ever heard that creek referred to as Meed  16 Creek, M-e-e-d?  17 A   Yes.  It flows in from a swamp.  18 Q   And the tea grows in the swamp, is that correct, the  19 tea plant?  20 A   Yes.  21 Q   And that creek is several miles south of Moricetown on  22 the Telkwa High Rode?  23 A   Yes, it would be on the other side of Hudson Bay Ranch  24 on the Telkwa High Road.  That's a place called Whuus  25 C'oo wenii.  26 THE INTERPRETER:  517.  27 MR. PLANT:  I don't have a list.  28 MR. RUSH:  I have been derelict.  Mr. Mitchell provided me with  29 the next list of words, 516 to 533, and I have been  30 intending to hand them up.  Sorry.  31 THE COURT:  Thank you.  32 THE INTERPRETER: 517 should be "WH".  33 THE COURT:  W-h-u-u-s?  34 THE INTERPRETER:  Yes.  35 THE COURT:  Thank you.  3 6 MR. PLANT:  37 Q   Is Whuus C'oo wenii the name of a place?  38 A   Yes, Whuus C'oo wenii would be south of there, Biiyis  39 Ghees Niinlii.  40 Q   I didn't hear what it is that would be south of there.  41 A   Biiyis Ghees Niinlii.  That's where we make the tea.  42 THE INTERPRETER: 386.  43 THE COURT:  Where we get tea or where we make tea?  44 THE WITNESS:  We get the tea from a long time ago.  We would dry  45 it, use it for tea.  4 6 THE COURT:  Thank you.  4 7 MR. PLANT: 1  Q  2  3  4  A  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  Q  12  13  14  A  15  16  Q  17  18  A  19  Q  20  21  22  A  23  Q  24  25  A  26  Q  27  28  29  30  A  31  Q  32  33  34  35  36  37  A  38  Q  39  40  41  A  42  43  44  Q  45  46  A  47  2844  Are all of the villagers of Moricetown permitted to go  and pick the plant that the tea is made from at the  swamp that you have described?  Some people know -- may know about the area, but what  I do remember is my mother and them used to harvest  that out there.  They used to make sacks of it, and  they would bring it in -- maybe approximately 20  pounds of it -- and then they would share it and give  it to the villagers, because that also has -- is used  for medicine also.  Would I be correct, then, in assuming that you haven't  seen anybody other than your mother pick that tea  plant from that place?  Yes, of course.  That's their own territory.  That's  why they would be the only ones that go in there.  When you say "their own territory", you are referring  to the territory of Wahtah k'eght?  Yes.  I want to move onto another subject now, Mrs. Alfred.  You have told us that Peter Bazil registered a  trapline.  Do you remember telling us that?  Yes.  And do you know when this trapline was first  registered?  No.  My understanding is that the trapline was  registered -- or let me be more precise.  That there  was an application to register the trapline by Peter  Bazil in 1926.  That could be.  I also understand that in 1931, which would be the  year that you were married, Peter Bazil applied to  change the registration from registration just for him  to a registration for himself and others called a  trapline company.  Do you know anything about that,  Mrs. Alfred?  Yes, that's right.  And some of the people that were registered on the  trapline with Peter Bazil included Arthur Michell,  Bazil Michell and Tommy Michell.  Do you know that?  Yes.  The one you would be talking about is the one  that Bazil holds now.  They were registered on that  area.  Actually I am talking about the trapline that Henry  Alfred holds now.  Yes, the whole area was one at one time, but since he  gave that area that Bazil got to him at that time, 1  2  3  Q  4  5  6  7  A  8  9  10  11  Q  12  13  14  15  A  16  17  Q  18  A  19  THE  COURT  20  MR.  PLANT  21  Q  22  A  23  Q  24  25  A  26  Q  27  28  A  29  Q  30  A  31  Q  32  33  THE  COURT  34  35  36  37  MR.  PLANT  38  39  THE  COURT  40  41  42  43  MR.  PLANT  44  THE  COURT  45  MR.  PLANT  46  THE  COURT  47  MR.  PLANT  2845  since then we have been on the other side of the  river.  Do you have any knowledge of whether Peter Bazil  applied to have Tommy and Arthur and Bazil Michell  registered on his trapline, which is on the east side  of the Bulkley?  I wouldn't know about that transaction or anything  about it.  The only thing I knew was the west side  where Bazil is on now, I knew when he was being  registered on there.  My understanding is that Bazil was registered on the  west side where he applied for -- or he applied for  registration on the west side as early as 1928.  Do  you know that to be the case?  Yes, that would be about the time when the Wahtah  k'eght gave him that end of the territory.  Bazil Michell that end of the territory?  Yes.  :  That's the west side of the territory, is it?  That's the west side of the territory, is it?  Yes.  Arthur Michell was the father of Bazil and Tommy  Michell?  Yes.  And Arthur Michell was sometimes called lame Arthur  Michell?  Yes.  He held the name Hagwilnegh at one time?  Yes.  I wanted to read a letter to Mrs. Alfred, and then I  want to ask her some questions about the letter.  :  Before you do that, Mr. Plant, I have been wondering  about this for several days.  I might have missed it,  but can somebody tell me what the relationship is  between the witness and Bazil Michell?  :  I don't know what it is either.  I would be happy to  ask.  :  His name has featured so prominently throughout all  of her evidence, and I don't think he is on the  genealogy.  He obviously would be a member of a  different house or a clan.  Are they related at all?  I'm quite happy to find out --  Would you please.  -- what her evidence is on that, My Lord.  Thank you so much. 1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  MR. RUSH  19 MR.  2 0 MR.  21 THE  22  2 3 MR.  24  25  26  27  28  2 9 THE  30  31 THE  32 THE  33 MR.  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41 THE  42 MR.  43 THE  44  45 THE  4 6 THE  4 7 MR.  2846  You told me yesterday, Mrs. Alfred, that Bazil Michell  was -- is Laksilyu?  Yes.  And that's the same clan that you are from?  Yes.  Yes, we -- all of the same clan, but we are from  different houses.  Bazil was born into the House of Many Eyes?  Yes.  And that house -- the chief of that house of  Hagwilnegh?  Yes.  And you are in the House on a Flat Rock, and the chief  of that house is Henry Alfred?  Yes.  Do you know what the relationship is, if any, between  you and Bazil Michell?  Let me ask you this.  Are you  related to Bazil Michell?  Do you mean a blood relationship?  PLANT:  I will —  RUSH:  Okay.  WITNESS:  He would be the same as a brother because my  brother adopted him.  PLANT:  Q   Do you know if there is any blood relationship between  you and Bazil Michell?  A   No.  The only reason he was close is because my  brother adopted him as a brother, because always work  very closely together.  COURT:  And again when you say brother, you mean Peter  Bazil?  WITNESS:  Yes.  COURT:  Thank you.  PLANT:  Q   And when you say "very close", when you say that Bazil  Michell and Peter Bazil were very close, you mean that  they were good friends?  A   Yes, the Laksilyu are all of one clan, and they all  sit together on one side of the hall.  In your case  what would be your situation?  Q   I'm sorry, I didn't hear the last sentence.  COURT:  I think it was a rhetorical, Mr. Plant.  PLANT:  Right.  COURT:  If I may just ask you, is Bazil Michell still alive  today?  WITNESS:  Yes.  COURT:  Thank you.  RUSH:  Mr. Bazil Michell was commissioned, My Lord. 2847  1 THE  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  MR.  2  3  4  5 THE  6 THE  7 MR.  8  9  10  11 THE  12 MR.  13 THE  14 THE  15  16 THE  17 MR.  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  2 5 MR.  26  27 THE  COURT  PLANT  Q  A  COURT:  WITNESS  PLANT:  Q  A  Oh, I see.  Thank you.  And I think you told us yesterday that he is sick?  Yes.  Thank you, Mr. Plant.  I'm sorry to interrupt you.  In the hospital very sick now.  COURT:  RUSH:  COURT:  Has he been in hospital very long?  Yes, he went in the hospital after we had to come down  for this court.  One last question, if I may.  How old is he, please?  He's 89.  Thank you, Mr. Rush.  89.  WITNESS: I don't know his age, but he would be older than my  husband.  Thank you.  COURT:  PLANT:  Q  MR.  Now, I am producing a letter which comes from the  Attorney General of Canada, document number 4505.  I  don't have the original.  I am going to ask the  witness some questions about the letter, but I think I  should read the letter to her first.  And I'm  providing it to Mr. Holland for assistance in  attempting to translate it.  RUSH:  I want to advise Your Lordship that this document is  out of sequence in the file.  COURT:  Yes.  Thank you.  PLANT:  That's correct, My Lord.  The letter is dated  January 24, 1934, and it is -- it purports to be a  letter from the Game Warden, Mr. Muirhead,  M-u-i-r-h-e-a-d, to Mr. Mortimer as the Indian agent  in Hazelton B.C.  The letter says -- and I'll read it,  Mr. Holland, and then ask you to translate it to the  witness:  "There has been considerable correspondence  during the winter between the game department  and two white men, one, Ben Nelson and one,  C.G. Harvey, both are residents at Driftwood  Creek and their address is Smithers, B.C.  It  is claimed by these two white men, and rightly  so, that Indians during the past few years  have seldom trapped on Driftwood Creek and  that lame Michell and his family to whom this  section belongs have not trapped there for the  past two years.  Consequently these two men  have asked and even demand under Section 16 2848  1 (1) of the Game Act to be allowed to trap and  2 to register Driftwood Creek and tributaries  3 from lot 13 to its source.  As it is  4 well-known that lame Michell and his  5 family are more deeply interested in taking  6 out ties and telephone poles, et cetera, than  7 they are in trapping and thereby are  8 encroaching on the white man's way of making a  9 living, it has been suggested that the  10 required part of the Peter Bazil registration  11 be cancelled and handed over to these two  12 white men.  I would be pleased to have your  13 views on this matter for submission to  14 headquarters."  15  16 A   I don't know.  I have never known it to be like that.  17 Q   Thank you.  Was lane Arthur Michell sometimes called  18 lame Michell?  19 A   Yes.  2 0 Q   To your knowledge did lame Arthur Michell and his  21 children ever have the right to trap along Driftwood  22 Creek?  23 A   I didn't know of the arrangements that was -- that  24 they had there at that time, but I only knew of  25 arrangements -- I only knew of arrangements for the  26 Moricetown side.  27 Q   I take it, then, that you can't say whether or not  28 lame Arthur Michell or Tommy or Bazil ever actually  29 trapped on Driftwood Creek?  30 A   I didn't know about that.  31 Q   Did not know?  32 A   I did not know about that.  Might have been before me.  33 Q   To your knowledge did lame Arthur Mitchell and Bazil  34 Michell and Tommy Michell work in pole cutting camps?  35 A   Yes, they worked for a person by the name of Hansen.  36 They -- what I know of it is they may have worked for  37 two years.  I know they didn't work there that long  38 -- for any length of time.  39 Q   Thank you.  Those are the questions I have on that  40 letter.  41 Well, My Lord, I would ask this be marked as an  42 exhibit for identification at the present time, but I  43 want to check and see whether this has come from an  44 archival file.  It would only be to have the piece of  45 paper and the record -- we already have the contents  46 read on the record --  47 MR. RUSH:  My friend can read any document he likes on the 1  2  3  THE  COURT  4  MR.  PLANT  5  THE  COURT  6  MR.  PLANT  7  8  9  10  THE  COURT  11  12  MR.  PLANT  13  MR.  RUSH:  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  THE  COURT  21  22  23  24  25  MR.  RUSH:  26  27  THE  COURT  28  29  MR.  RUSH:  30  THE  COURT  31  MR.  RUSH:  32  THE  COURT  33  MR.  RUSH:  34  THE  COURT  35  36  37  38  THE  REGIS  39  THE  COURT  40  41  42  MR.  PLANT  43  Q  44  45  THE  COURT  46  47  MR.  PLANT  2849  record, it doesn't make it a document in the  proceedings.  Is it not a business record?  It is, but --  If it's not an archival document --  We haven't crossed that threshold yet in the  documentary problems that have arisen.  Our position  will be in due course that documents of this nature  are business records and are admissible.  :  All right.  Well, you are only asking it be marked  for identification this time?  :  That's all that I -- and I do make that request.  Well, my position is that this document doesn't even  rise to the level of any other piece of paper on this  table as to why it should become part of this  proceeding.  As far as I can see, it's not appropriate  that this be marked as an exhibit for identification  or an exhibit or anything.  It's a document that was  read to the witness and that's all.  :  Well, the only advantage of marking it for  identification would be to put it in the proper  numerical sequence, if it later does become an  exhibit, so it could be related to in evidence that  way.  But it has no relation to the evidence.  That's my  point.  :  The witness has confirmed some of the things that  are said in the letter.  What?  :  That they cut poles for maybe two years.  Was that in '34 and '54 and '84?  :  I don't know.  I don't think it has any relevance whatsoever.  :  Well, all right.  I don't think there is any magic  in it.  I think that because it may be convenient to  have it in the numerical sequence that I mentioned --  the next exhibit number please?  ?RAR:  149.  :  149.  Well, I will just reserve the number, 149, for  it, if it later becomes evidence.  We merely reserve  the number.  Miss Alfred, I want to show you another letter,  another photocopy of a letter.  :  Would it be more convenient to take the adjournment  now, than five minutes from now?  :  I would be happy to -- in the circumstances, My 2850  1 Lord, this might be as convenient a time as any to  2 break.  3 THE COURT:  We'll take the morning adjournment.  4  5 (PROCEEDINGS ADJOURNED FOR A SHORT RECESS)  6  7  8 I HEREBY CERTIFY THE FOREGOING TO  9 BE A TRUE AND ACCURATE TRANSCRIPT  10 OF THE PROCEEDINGS HEREIN TO THE  11 BEST OF MY SKILL AND ABILITY.  12  13    14 LORI OXLEY  15 OFFICIAL REPORTER  16 UNITED REPORTING SERVICE LTD.  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47 THE  MR.  THE  MR.  A  Q  A  Q  A  9  10  11 MR.  12 THE  13 MR.  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21 THE  22 THE  23 THE  2 4 MR.  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  4 4 MR.  4 5 MR.  46  4 7 MR. PLANT:  2851  (PROCEEDINGS RECONVENED AT 11:30 A.M.)  REGISTRAR:  Order in court.  PLANT:  I have another letter which I would like you to look  at, Mrs. Alfred.  It comes from the same Attorney  General of Canada document number 4505.  I have a copy  of this letter for your lordship.  COURT:  Thank you.  PLANT:  Mrs. Alfred, would you please look at this document  and tell me if you recognize it?  The witness has said she can't read.  Yes.  She does recognize it?  RUSH  WITNESS  PLANT:  Q   I beg your pardon?  Yes.  And what do you know that document to be?  This letter was written when they were talking about  the territory.  Which territory were they talking about?  Yes, that's Wah Tah K'eght's territory.  COURT:  I'm sorry?  INTERPRETER:  Wah Tah K'eght's territory.  COURT:  Oh, I see.  PLANT:  Q   Was this letter written to transfer your name from  Bazil Michell's line on the west side of the Bulkley  across the river to the Henry Alfred trapline on the  east side of the river?  Yes.  Did you personally write this letter, Mrs. Alfred?  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  A  PLANT  RUSH:  No.  Did someone write this letter on your behalf?  Yes.  Do you know who wrote the letter on your behalf?  I forgot who wrote the letter out for me.  From time to time did you ask people in Moricetown to  write letters on your behalf?  I -- I just want to know about this letter.  Is this  letter about the time when my brother was transferring  the territory over to us?  When you speak of your brother, you're speaking of  Peter Bazil?  Yes.  :  And Peter Bazil transferred the territory --  No, that was a question.  I think that was a question  that was asked of you, Mr. Plant. 1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16 MR.  17  18  19 MR.  2 0 MR.  21 MR.  22  2 3 MR.  24  25  26  27  28  29  3 0 MR.  31  32 THE  33 THE  34 MR.  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42 MR.  43 THE  4 4 MR.  45 THE  4 6 MR.  47  2852  Q   I was about to try and see if I could answer it  because I don't want to put words in Mrs. Alfred's  mouth.  This letter was written -- let me put it this way.  The letter is dated November, 1962.  Do you recall  that in or about 1962 you asked to have your name  taken off Bazil's trapline, Bazil Michell's trapline,  and put onto the trapline on the east side of the  Bulkley River?  A   Yes, I -- I know of that.  Q   And as I understand it, Peter Bazil transferred the  registration of the trapline to your son Henry at  about that time?  A   Yes.  Yes, he transferred it over to three of us,  Henry, Cecil, and myself.  PLANT:  And you wrote the letter which we've been looking at  to be sure that your name would appear on the new  registration that was going to be given to Henry?  RUSH:  She said —  PLANT:  I'm sorry.  RUSH:  She said that she didn't write the letter.  Somebody  wrote it on her behalf.  PLANT:  Q   I'm sorry.  I certainly didn't mean to imply that she  had written it.  You caused this letter to be written to ensure  that your name would be on Henry Alfred's registered  trapline; is that right?  A   Yes.  PLANT:  I ask that this letter be marked as the next  exhibit, my lord.  Yes.  When was this letter written, againl  COURT:  WITNESS  PLANT:  Q   The date on it is November 8th, 1962.  A   This -- yes, this letter was written about that time  when he -- he himself transferred to -- transferred it  to Henry and myself because he was getting weak at  that time.  Q   He was getting too old to trap, this is Peter Bazil?  A   Yes.  PLANT:  And —  COURT:  I'm sorry.  PLANT:  -- a few years after that --  COURT:  Did you mean Peter Bazil?  PLANT:  Q   Yes.  Peter Bazil was getting too old to trap by 1962; 2853  1 is that the reason that he transferred the registered  2 trapline to Henry and to Cecil and to yourself?  3 A   Yes, he was also getting too sick, and that's why  4 there was a meeting there at Moricetown in a hall and  5 he had to transfer it over to Cecil, Henry and myself.  6 Q   Was that done in the presence of other Wet'suwet'en  7 witnesses?  8 A   Yes, that was -- that was one of the reasons why it  9 was -- these letters were made at a meeting.  10 MR. PLANT:  Well, I ask that the document be marked now, my  11 lord.  12 THE COURT:  Yes, I think it will be Exhibit 150.  13 THE REGISTRAR:  Exhibit 150.  14  15 (EXHIBIT 150 - LETTER DATED NOVEMBER 8, 1962)  16  17 THE COURT:  I want to say that I'm not — I think I have grasped  18 what's being said here, but rather than leave me with  19 a false impression, may I state to counsel what I  20 understand the evidence to be, and that is that prior  21 to this time apparently the witness was registered  22 along with Bazil Michell on a trapline on the west  23 side of the territory, and that -- and that was the  24 purpose of this letter.  At the same time I understood  25 her to be saying that Wah Tah K'eght, then Peter  26 Bazil, was transferring his trapline on the east side  27 to the witness along with Henry and Cecil because Wah  28 Tah K'eght was getting elderly and unable to trap.  2 9 MR. PLANT  3 0 THE COURT  31 MR. PLANT  He, Peter Bazil, holding the name Wah Tah K'eght --  Yes.  -- was getting elderly and unable to trap.  That's  32 my understanding of the evidence.  33 THE COURT:  Yes.  34 MR. RUSH:  The only thing I would add to that is that I think  35 the evidence is that prior to this time Henry Alfred  36 was part of the company of Peter Bazil on the east  37 side, and it may well have been that Cecil was too  38 but —  39 THE COURT:  Henry at least.  40 MR. RUSH:  Henry at least.  41 THE COURT:  Was registered along with Peter Bazil on the east  42 side.  Yes.  All right.  Thank you, Mr. Rush.  4 3 MR. PLANT:  44 Q   Prior to these events, which you've described, in  45 1962, were you on -- were you registered on Bazil  46 Michell's trapline on the west side of the Bulkley,  47 Mrs. Alfred? 1  A  2  3  4  5  Q  6  A  7  Q  8  9  A  10  Q  11  A  12  13  14  15  16  Q  17  18  A  19  20  21  Q  22  23  A  24  Q  25  26  A  27  Q  28  29  30  A  31  32  33  34  35  36  Q  37  38  39  40  A  41  42  43  Q  44  A  45  46  Q  47  A  2854  Yes.  That letter you were showing was drawn up at  that meeting.  That is when my brother had me transfer  it over to -- to the east side along with Henry and  Cecil.  Your brother being Peter Bazil?  Yes.  Mrs. Alfred, we spoke yesterday about Trout Creek and  the Trout Creek Store.  Do you remember that?  Yes.  And do you -- have you ever travelled up Trout Creek?  Yes, I travelled upstream there and -- and also on the  stream coming from Toboggan Lake.  We trapped beaver  and muskrat on there.  But we haven't -- we haven't  gone back there since being -- the place has been  populated by white people.  Have you ever travelled up Trout Creek since the time  that you spent at Toboggan Lake?  In my time I didn't hunt or trap up the Trout Creek.  I didn't go up the hill.  But before my time our  ancestors used that territory up that area.  And the territory -- the upper part of Trout Creek,  does that belong to Wah Tah K'eght?  Yes.  There's a gravel road that goes up there now, isn't  there?  Are you talking about Doughty?  Yes.  There is a road that leaves near Doughty.  It  goes all the way up to the top of Trout Creek.  Do you  know about that road?  That -- I don't know of any road going up there  because the hill is awfully steep.  The only roads  that I know of is one going up the hill near Doughty.  It goes up the hill to logging areas.  And then up  from Doughty, that's all logged -- that was all logged  off, and there's farmers in there now.  I want to show you a photograph, Mrs. Alfred.  It's at  tab 5 of the book of photographs.  Actually, that's --  I was going to suggest that that was the road at  Doughty, but that is not, is it?  No, that's -- this -- this bridge is -- goes across  Toboggan Creek, and that goes up to where there's a  fish hatchery.  Is there a fish hatchery on Toboggan Creek nowadays?  Yes, there is a fish -- fish farm there because we  were up there last summer looking at it.  Is that fish farm operated by Wet'suwet'en people?  No, white man. 2855  1 Q   Looking again at the picture of tab 5, which is the  2 bridge crossing Toboggan Creek, is that near Evelyn?  3 A   Yes.  4 Q   And if I turn back to the picture at -- well, before I  5 do that, can you see the railway crossing in that  6 picture, Mrs. Alfred?  7 A   Yes, it's a railroad crossing there, and it's -- down  8 from there is where that fish farm is.  9 Q   Close to where the crossing is?  10 A   Yes, it's just below there.  11 Q   Just turning to the picture at tab 4 for a minute, do  12 you recognize that sign in that picture, Mrs. Alfred?  13 A   I -- that -- that picture is, I think, a field or  14 Storey's field, and that's the sign that's pointing  15 towards fisheries.  16 Q   The fish hatchery?  17 A   Yes.  18 Q   Is Mr. Storey a farmer or a rancher?  19 A   Yes, he's got a farm there.  20 Q   Is he a white man?  21 A   Yes.  22 MR. PLANT:  My lord, perhaps the photograph at tab 5 could be  23 marked as the next exhibit and then the photograph at  24 tab 4 the exhibit after that.  25 THE COURT:  All right.  Tab 5 will be Exhibit 151.  26 THE REGISTRAR:  151.  27  28 (EXHIBIT 151 - PHOTOGRAPH)  29  30 THE COURT:  And tab 4 will be 152.  31  32 (EXHIBIT 152 - PHOTOGRAPH)  33  34 MR. PLANT:  35 Q   Turning -- while we're on this subject, Mrs. Alfred,  36 just turning to tab 9, I understand or my instructions  37 are that that is a picture of Mr. Storey's farm.  Can  38 you recognize that?  39 A   Yes, this picture would be Johnson's farm just north  40 of Storey's.  41 Q   Is Mr. Johnson a white man?  42 A   Yes, they're all white people around that area.  43 There's no Wet'suwet'en whatsoever around there.  44 MR. PLANT:  May that be the next exhibit, my lord?  4 5 THE COURT:  Yes.  46 THE REGISTRAR:  Exhibit 153.  That's tab 9.  47 1  2  3 MR.  PLANT  4  Q  5  6  A  7  8  9  10  Q  11  12  13  A  14  15  16  17  Q  18  19  20  A  21  22  23  Q  24  25  A  26  27  28  29  30  Q  31  32  A  33  34  35  36  Q  37  38  A  39  Q  40  A  41  42  Q  43  44  A  45  46  Q  47  A  2856  (EXHIBIT 153 - PHOTOGRAPH)  Thank you, Mrs. Alfred.  Is there a boundary of the  territory of Wah Tah K'eght up Trout Creek somewhere?  Yes, a long time ago our ancestors had place names,  mountains, creeks, which they used for boundary lines.  There was no such thing as lines.  They used these  place names for boundary lines.  Now, dealing with the area around or west of Trout  Creek, were you taught about the boundaries of the  territory of Wah Tah K'eght in that area?  Yes, yes, all these -- these mountains, creeks are all  mentioned to us, and we -- and that is how it was a  long time ago, and that's how we know where our  boundaries are.  Who was it that mentioned to you, Mrs. Alfred, the  boundaries in the area above or to the west of Trout  Creek?  Yes, these boundaries were told us by our -- by our  mothers and uncles in much the same way as they had  been taught in the past.  They teach us the same way.  Did your mother, Lucy Pius, teach you about the  boundaries?  Yes, they were the ones that -- some of the people  that taught us these boundaries in the areas, and  these information that is handed down to us is handed  down from generation to generation from way before our  time.  I want to know who taught you, Mrs. Alfred, about the  boundaries in the area to the west of Trout Creek?  Yes, we travel -- we travel through there hunting and  trapping with my mother and my brother, and they  taught us the same things that they had been taught  before us.  When you speak of your brother, you're speaking of  Peter Bazil?  Yes.  And you've never been up Trout Creek; is that correct?  Yes, we've hunted up in that area when we used to have  overnight camp at a place you call Trout Creek.  At the mouth of Trout Creek, where Trout Creek comes  into the Bulkley?  Yes, we camped at Ta begh Tai, and that's where we  used to hunt and trap from.  And that's the trail beside Toboggan Lake?  Yes. 1  THE  2  THE  3  THE  4  MR.  5  6  7  MR.  8  9  THE  10  THE  11  12  13  MR.  14  15  THE  16  MR.  17  THE  18  MR.  19  20  21  22  23  THE  24  THE  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  2857  TRANSLATOR:  That's 489.  COURT:  489.  TRANSLATOR:  489.  PLANT:  Q   You never actually set traps on Trout Creek, did you?  A   No.  PLANT:  Perhaps this would be a convenient moment to  adjourn, my lord.  COURT:  All right.  We'll adjourn.  WITNESS:  That area you're talking about is too steep for  anybody to travel there.  That's what I'm talking  about.  PLANT:  Well -- Trout Creek is too steep to set traps on; is  that what you said?  COURT:  To travel I think she said.  PLANT:  I beg your pardon?  COURT:  To travel.  PLANT:  Q   For travel.  Oh.  A   Yes, at -- at Trout Creek, hey, it's too steep to go  up the hill there.  Maybe you should try it, going up  there yourself.  COURT:  All right.  Two o'clock, please.  REGISTRAR:  Order in court.  Court's adjourned until 2:00.  (PROCEEDINGS ADJOURNED AT 12:00 P.M.)  I hereby certify the foregoing to be  a true and accurate transcript of the  proceedings herein to the best of my  skill and ability.  Leanna Smith  Official Reporter  United Reporting Service Ltd. THE  MR.  THE  MR.  9  10  11 THE  12 MR.  13  14  15  16  17 THE  18 MR.  19  2 0 THE  21 MR.  22  23 THE  2 4 MR.  25  26  27 THE  2 8 MR.  2 9 THE  30  31 MR.  32 THE  33  34 MR.  35  36  37  38 THE  3 9 MR.  40  41 THE  42 MR.  43  44  45 THE  4 6 MR.  47  COURT:  PLANT:  Q  COURT  PLANT  COURT  PLANT  COURT  PLANT  COURT  PLANT  COURT  PLANT  COURT  PLANT  COURT  PLANT  COURT  PLANT  COURT  PLANT  COURT  PLANT  COURT  PLANT  2858  (PROCEEDINGS RECOMMENCED AFTER LUNCHEON RECESS)  Mr. Plant.  Mrs. Alfred, when we broke for lunch I was asking you  about Trout Creek.  Does My Lord have the map, Exhibit 84?  Yes.  Does Your Lordship have the location of Trout Creek  on that map?  No, I do not.  Well, there is a creek marked about halfway between  where Moricetown Indian reserve number 1 and Toboggan  Lake, and the creek flows into the Bulkley and flows  in from the west.  The line up the creek is  horizontal, roughly speaking, on the map.  It's not marked.  And on the creek is printed the words -- or above  the creek is printed the words D-1-a-a-t-e, K-w-a-h.  Yes, I have the creek.  K-w-a-h, I think its been agreed, is a reference to  creek.  Yes, right.  And I think D-1-a-a-t-e may be another spelling  for -- or another way to spell the sound which has  been given here as T-1'e-e-t.  Yes.  And that's —  I have never found Toboggan Lake on this map.  Is it  here?  Excuse me, My Lord?  I have never found Toboggan Lake on the map.  Is it  here?  Toboggan Lake is down near the southern part of the  area depicted on the map above the dark black line  which I take to be the representation of the outline  of the territory.  Yes.  And there is a lake in the area marked with the word  T-a-b-e-g-h-t-e-y.  Yes, I have that.  Well, on my copy of this map there is a little lake  there, and that's, according to my understanding, that  is Toboggan Lake.  East of the highway?  It's right beside the highway and beside the  railroad.  I'm sorry, it's west of the highway, and THE  MR.  THE  MR.  THE  1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8 MR.  9  10  11 THE  12 MR.  13  14 THE  15 MR.  16 THE  17 MR.  18  19  20  21 THE  22 MR.  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38 THE  39  40  41 THE  42 THE  43 THE  44 THE  4 5 MR.  46  47  COURT  PLANT  COURT  PLANT  COURT  PLANT  COURT  PLANT  COURT  PLANT  COURT  RUSH:  COURT  PLANT  Q  2859  the railroad passes on the east --  Yes.  -- side.  Does the t-e-y intrude into the lake?  No, the --  I can't tell the difference between a lake and a  contour on this map.  No.  And the reason that I can is I marked up my  copy with a pen.  My understanding is that the lake is  below the t-a-b-e.  Oh, all right.  And that's -- it's between the t-a-b-e-g-h and the  CNR.  Yes, I have got it.  It's in that area.  And there may not --  That's close enough, Mr. Plant.  I perhaps needn't remind Your Lordship about this,  but the Tabegh Tai is not the name of the lake, as you  know, and it's very difficult to see.  I can't discern  it on my copy as to what is the lake.  I have now identified Trout Lake, Mr. Plant.  Mrs. Alfred, would you please describe for me the  boundary of the territory of Wahtah k'eght, as you  have been taught it, in the area west of Trout Creek?  A   The boundary would go along the top of the mountain,  half a mountain above Trout Creek, and would go to  Tsee K'ez iitai and what you would call C'ellee nee  ben dii taan.  The boundary goes down to C'ellee nee  ben dii taan.  There is a hill there, Yen laleediin  t'aay, and then it would go from there across the  river.  Q   If I could stop you there.  The river that you are  talking about is the Bulkley River?  A   Yes, that's the one.  Q   Now, I heard three places that I don't have spellings  for.  INTERPRETER:  T-s-e-e, k'-e-z, i-i-t'a-i.  C'elle nee ben  dii taan, C'e-1-l-e-e, n-e-e, b-e-n, d-i-1, t-a-a-n.  Yen laleediin t'aay.  COURT:  New word?  INTERPRETER:  Yes.  COURT:  Start again, please.  INTERPRETER: Y-e-n, 1-a-l, underline, e-e-d-i-i-n'i-a (sic).  PLANT:  Q   The first name that you gave us, Tsee k'ez iit'ai, is  that a hill or a  what kind of feature is it? 1  A  2  3  4  Q  5  A  6  Q  7  A  8  Q  9  10  A  11  12  Q  13  14  A  15  Q  16  17  A  18  19  Q  20  21  A  22  23 THE  COURT  24  25  2 6 MR.  PLANT  27  28  2 9 THE  COURT  3 0 MR.  PLANT  31  Q  32  33  34  35  A  36  Q  37  A  38  Q  39  40  A  41  42  Q  43  A  44  Q  45  46  47  A  2860  There is a trail going up -- it's a mountain.  There  is a trial going up to where they went.  And Tsee k'ez  iit'ai, it is a corner in the boundary.  Corner in the mountain or boundary?  In the boundary.  I didn't hear you.  In the boundary.  Thank you.  And the second place that you gave us,  C'ellee nee ben dii taan, what is that?  That was a lake, but that lake was drained by Storey  and made into a field.  Storey is the white rancher or farmer that you told us  about earlier?  Yes.  Was that lake close to the Bulkley or was it further  back way up in the mountains?  That lake would have been south of Ta begh Tai.  They  were not too far apart.  So am I correct in assuming that the lake was not too  far from the trail that goes by Toboggan Lake?  Yes, it would have been a trail along the lake that is  not too far from the hill.  :  Are we on a blind chase here, Mr. Plant?  We started  out to find out where the boundary was west of Trout  Creek, and now we are way down on the south boundary.  :  Yes.  Well, I'm -- yes, we are at the moment on a  blind trail, My Lord, but I'll see if I can try and  find some way of getting back to someplace.  :  Go ahead.  I don't know why we are talking about a hill in the  last answer, Mrs. Alfred.  C'ellee nee ben dii taan,  you told me that was a lake that was drained by Mr.  Storey?  Yes.  And the place --  There is a big field there now.  And the place that used to be the lake is south of  Toboggan Lake -- where Toboggan Lake is?  It's south of Toboggan Lake, and it's not too far from  Toboggan Lake.  Is it close to Adam's igloo?  Are you talking about a place on top of the hill?  I want to refer you to a photograph.  I am referring  you to Tab 2 of the book of photographs.  Do you  recognize that building?  Yes, I recognize that place in the picture, and that 2861  1 would be -- this Yen laleediint'aay would be a hill  2 just a little north of that place in the picture, and  3 C'ellee nee ben dii taan would be at the foot of that,  4 Yen laleediint'aay.  5 Q   Now, you say there is a hill north of Adam's igloo,  6 and that, I believe, is a name that I have not heard  7 before, or at least I don't have the spelling of the  8 hill.  9 MR. PLANT:  Is that Y-e-n-1-a-l-e-e-d-i-i-n-t-a-a-y?  10 THE INTERPRETER:  Yes.  11 MR. PLANT:  That's the third of the three names that we started  12 with.  My Lord, I am going to try and get us back to  13 the west of Trout Creek, but before we do that, may  14 the photograph of Adam's igloo be marked as the next  15 exhibit?  16 THE COURT:  Yes, 154.  17  18 (EXHIBIT 154 - PHOTOGRAPH OF ADAM'S IGLOO - TAB  19 TWO IN THE BOOK OF PHOTOGRAPHS)  20  21 Q   Could you turn to the photograph at Tab 3 in this  22 book, Mrs. Alfred.  My instructions are that that is a  23 photograph taken looking west at the rest area which  24 is just north of the Adam's igloo building.  Do you  25 recognize that scene depicted on that photograph?  26 A   Yes, I recognize that picture.  That would be from a  27 pull-out there, and that mountain -- the line would  2 8 come down north of that mountain, but the area  29 pointing at is not in the picture, and the area you  30 are looking at is in Gitdumden's territory.  31 Q   The area shown on the photograph belongs to the  32 Gitdunden clan?  33 A   Yes, that's right.  Below there, not too far away, is  34 where the boundary comes down.  35 Q   When you say below, are you talking about the fields  36 down on the bottom of the picture?  37 A   No, that's not showing on the picture, but it's -- it  38 would be north of that picture.  The south side is all  39 Gitdumden territory.  40 Q   When you say north, Mrs. Alfred, are you talking about  41 off to the right?  42 A   Yes.  The line comes down between the mountains, but  43 this picture is somebody else's territory.  44 Q   And just so I'm absolutely sure of this, the lake that  45 was drained by Mr. Storey and has been turned into a  46 field, is that also off to the right of the photograph  47 at Tab 3? 2862  1 A   Yes, there is a hill that's not in the picture.  And  2 when you get to the foot of that hill, that's where  3 that lake used to be.  4 MR. PLANT:   Thank you.  May the photograph at Tab 3 be the next  5 exhibit now, My Lord.  6 THE COURT:  Yes, that will be —  7 THE REGISTRAR:  Exhibit 155.  8 THE COURT:  155.  Thank you.  9  10 (EXHIBIT NO. 155 - TAB 3 OF THE BOOK OF PHOTOGRAPHS)  11  12 MR. PLANT:  13 Q   Now, Mrs. Alfred, you gave us a name, Tsee k'ez  14 iit'ai, and I'm going to have to ask Mr. Mitchell to  15 assist in pronouncing it.  It's the first of the three  16 names that were given when I asked for the boundary  17 description.  18 A   Tsee k'ez iit'ai is not in the picture where you see  19 the glacier.  It would be north of where that picture  20 is, and that is where they go up in the mountains.  21 There is a trail up there, and that's where the  22 boundary is.  23 Q   Could you turn to the picture at Tab 5, which is the  24 bridge across Toboggan Creek.  There are mountains in  25 the background of that photograph, Mrs. Alfred.  Can  26 you find the place that we have been talking about on  27 that photograph?  28 A   This mountain peak that is standing up, and there is a  29 pass between this and the other mountains, and then  30 there is a pass between.  There is a creek coming out  31 of there, and that's where that boundary comes down.  32 Why do you ask so many questions?  Are you going to go  33 up there?  34 Q   I wanted to find out where your boundary is, Mrs.  35 Alfred.  Turning back for a minute to Tab 3.  Would I  36 be correct in saying that the boundary that we are  37 talking about --  38 A   The pass between that mountain on this picture and the  39 other one, that's where the boundary comes down.  40 Q   So the boundary is to the right of the mountain on the  41 right of the photograph at Tab 3, and it is to the  42 left of the mountain on the left of the photograph at  43 Tab 5?  44 A   Yes.  45 Q   The place, Tsee k'ez iit'ai, which I can't pronounce,  46 is it shown on the photograph on Tab 5, or is that in  47 the area that is not shown on either of those 2863  1 photographs?  2 A   No, it doesn't show on there.  That picture you got  3 there is the outflow of Tobbogan Lake, and it's north  4 of the Tobbogan Lake, and that's where the road to the  5 fish farm.  6 Q   Is Tsee k'ez iit'ai on the left or the right of the  7 photograph at Tab 5?  8 A   That would be towards Smithers on the left-hand side.  9 Q   Now, Tl'eet Kwe or Trout Creek is some distance north  10 of these two photographs that we have been looking at,  11 Tab 3 and Tab 5 of the book of photographs?  12 THE INTERPRETER:  It's 531.  13 A   You are travelling back north again.  But I already  14 told you about that area before.  That Trout Creek you  15 talking about and that Toboggan Creek, they both come  16 into the river almost at the same place.  17 Q   Mrs. Alfred, have you ever heard of a lake known as  18 Taltzen Ben, T-a-1-t-z-e-n B-e-n?  There may be a  19 number for it.  20 A   No, I don't know that lake.  21 Q   To be sure that we are not relying on my  22 pronounciation, I was going to ask Mr. Mitchell to  23 look at page three of Exhibit 120A, and on the  24 right-hand column underneath the word lakes, the last  25 word is T-a-1-t-z-e-n, B-e-n.  Could you pronounce  26 that, Mr. Mitchell?  27 THE INTERPRETER: Taltzen Ben.  2 8 MR. PLANT:  29 Q   Do you know that lake, Mrs. Alfred?  30 A   No, I don't know that lake.  31 Q   Have you ever heard of Kitsegukla Lake?  32 A   Kitsegukla Lake, I think, is on boundary on that lake.  33 The other half, I think, belongs to Old Dennis,  34 although all Laksilyu, but the other half belongs to  35 Old Dennis, and the area that you are talking about is  36 Teeteet.  37 THE INTERPRETER:  T-e-t-e-t (sic) .  38 THE COURT:  I'm sorry, t-e —  39 THE INTERPRETER:  It's 373.  4 0 MR. PLANT:  41 Q   Is Teeteet the name of a lake or an area or perhaps  42 both?  43 A   It would be a name of an area in the territory.  44 Q   Whose territory?  45 A   Old Dennis used to travel up there.  He might be from  46 Keel We niits.  47 THE INTERPRETER:  228. 1  THE  COURT  2  MR.  PLANT  3  Q  4  A  5  Q  6  A  7  8  Q  9  A  10  Q  11  12  A  13  14  15  Q  16  A  17  Q  18  A  19  20  21  22  Q  23  A  24  Q  25  26  A  27  28  THE  INTER  29  MR.  PLANT  30  Q  31  A  32  33  34  35  THE  COURT  36  37  MR.  PLANT  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  THE  COURT  45  MR.  PLANT  46  47  2864  :  Thank you.  Was Old Dennis Laksilyu?  Yes, Laksilyu.  And was he -- what was his House?  He was from the Keel We niits Wet'en, but I don't know  the connection to the House.  Was Johnny David also from Keel We niits?  Yes.  So when we talk about the area Teeteet, is that a  place where Johnny David used to trap?  He -- Johnny and Old Dennis, they hunted and trapped  in that area because he was married to — of the same  clan, but he was married to Old Dennis's daughter.  Johnny David was Laksilyu also?  Yes.  This area, Teeteet, does that belong to Wahtah k'eght?  Yes, Teeteet is where the boundary would be going  through Wahtah k'eght's territory, would be on the  side of the river, the east side, and Old Dennis would  be on the other side of Wahtah k'eght's territory.  Was Teeteet the boundary?  Yes, it would go through the middle.  And when you say it is an area, what is it?  Is it a  meadow?  Is it a hill?  I'm not too familiar with that territory, so I just  know that the boundary goes through Ooniin'aay.  PRETER:  225.  The boundary goes from Ooniin'aay?  I don't travel in Old Dennis's territory, so I don't  know anything about it, but the boundary goes  through -- that's all I was told about, was that the  boundary goes from Ts'ee Ggexw towards Ts'e dee Kai.  :  I don't know what boundary it is we are talking  about, Mr. Plant.  : I -- well, I thought I knew approximately where we  were a minute ago. I just heard two new words. My  Lord, I was going to try and orient us again, but if  Your Lordship follows the line of Trout Creek through  the west through the heavy black line on the left of  the heavy black line underneath the lot marked 3394,  there is a black area.  :  Yes.  :  That is, to my understanding -- to the best of my  understanding it corresponds with the location of what  is described on government maps as Kitsegukla Lake.  I THE  MR.  THE  THE  7 THE  8 THE  9 MR.  10  11 MR.  12 MR.  13 MR.  14 MR.  15  16  17  18  19  20  21 MR.  22  23 THE  2 4 MR.  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  4 0 THE  41  42 MR.  43  44  45  4 6 THE  47 THE  2865  don't know yet where the area Teeteet is.  COURT:  All right.  Thank you.  PLANT:  May I have the spelling of the last two names that  were mentioned?  INTERPRETER:  T-s'e-e, g-g-e-x-w.  COURT:  Can I have the spelling again, Mr. Mitchell, please?  INTERPRETER:  T-s-'e-e, g-g-e-x-w.  COURT:  Thank you.  RUSH:  It's on page three under mountains, My Lord.  It is  the -- one, two, three, fourth mountain there.  PLANT:  My page three of the affidavit of —  RUSH:  And it's a ridge east of Teeh skaak wenii.  RUSH:  That is on page three, Teeh skaak wenii.  PLANT:  The last thing I wanted at the moment is another  Wet'suwet'en name of a place I can't find on a map,  but I guess we better get the spelling of what -- on  page three of the affidavit, the name which my friend  just uttered is spelt T-e-e-h S-k-a-a-k W-e-n-i-i.  Q   Mrs. Alfred, do you know -- Mrs. Alfred, did you just  mention the name Ts'e dee k'ai?  PLANT:  The spelling of the word I just tried to say is on  page 5 of the affidavit as S-a-a-y-k'e-e-t-a-y (sic).  INTERPRETER:  T-s'e, d-e-e, k'a-i.  PLANT:  Q   Mrs. Alfred, have you ever heard Kitsegukla Lake  described as Guxsan, G-u-x-s-a-n, Lake?  A   Yes, I know of that lake, Guxsan Lake.  And beyond  that lake is Gitksan territory.  Q   And is Guxsan Lake, in your mind, the same place as  Kitsegukla Lake?  A   Kitsegukla Lake is further down forwards the village.  We were just told about these lakes when we travelled  up there during the summertime.  Q   You say further down towards the village.  Do you mean  further east?  A   It would be further away from the Doughty area.  It is  quite a ways in there.  Quite a ways in the mountains?  Q  A  COURT  PLANT  COURT:  I have lost track of what's further away  Yes.  Mr. Plant,  from what.  So have I, and I -- every time I think I am getting  closer, I get farther away.  I don't know -- I am in  Your Lordship's hands as to whether it would be a  convenient --  We'll take the afternoon adjournment.  REGISTRAR:  Order in court.  Court adjourns briefly. 2866  1  2 (PROCEEDINGS ADJOURNED FOR A SHORT RECESS)  3  4  5  6 I HEREBY CERTIFY THE FOREGOING TO  7 BE A TRUE AND ACCURATE TRANSCRIPT  8 OF THE PROCEEDINGS HEREIN TO THE  9 BEST OF MY SKILL AND ABILITY.  10  11    12 LORI OXLEY  13 OFFICIAL REPORTER  14 UNITED REPORTING SERVICE LTD.  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47 (PROCEEDINGS RECONVENED AT 3:17 P.M.) 1  2 THE  REGIS1  3 THE  COURT  4 MR.  PLANT  5  Q  6  7  8  A  9  Q  10  A  11  Q  12  13  14  15  16  17  A  18  Q  19  20  A  21  22  Q  23  A  24  25  Q  26  A  27  28  Q  29  30  A  31  Q  32  33  A  34  35  Q  36  37  A  38  Q  39  A  40  41  42  Q  43  44  A  45  Q  46  47  A  2867  rRAR:  Order in court.  :  Mr. Plant.  Mrs. Alfred, before we broke, a few questions before  we broke you told the Court about travelling up there  in the summertime.  Do you remember saying that?  Yes.  When was this trip?  What area are you talking about?  Well, Mrs. Alfred, you told me a few minutes ago, you  told the Court about a trip that you made, and the  note that I have of your answer was, "We were just  told about these lakes when we travelled up there in  the summertime," and that's when we were talking about  Kitsegukla Lake.  Can you remember that trip?  Yes, we were up there on a picnic trip.  A picnic trip?  I'm sorry, I didn't hear what the word  was .  Yes, we were up there on a Sunday when our children  went up there and had lunch at a picnic ground.  Was this last summer?  We didn't go up there last summer but the year before,  when my -- when my husband was still able to walk.  Did you go with your husband and your children?  Yes, we just went up there on a Sunday trip.  We had  lunch up there.  And it was your husband and your children that went  with you?  Yes, we went on a one-day trip up there.  Did you go with anyone other than the members of your  family?  Yes, it was just the family.  We went on a Sunday  picnic trip.  And did you have your picnic lunch at a campground by  a lake?  Yes, there was a picnic camp there where we had lunch.  And did you drive up there on a gravel road?  Yes, there's a -- there's a road up there almost like  a highway.  It's farmers, and there was picnic sites  set up there.  Does that road leave the Yellowhead Highway near  Doughty?  Yes.  Mrs. Alfred, do you know people in Moricetown who have  traplines near Houston and Topley?  I don't go around there, so I don't know anybody. 1  Q  2  3  A  4  Q  5  6  A  7  Q  8  9  10  A  11  12  13  Q  14  A  15  Q  16  17  A  18  Q  19  A  20  Q  21  A  22  Q  23  A  24  Q  25  A  26  Q  27  28  A  29  Q  30  A  31  32  Q  33  A  34  Q  35  36  A  37  Q  38  A  39  Q  40  A  41  Q  42  43  A  44 THE  COURT  4 5 MR.  PLANT  4 6 THE  COURT  4 7 MR.  PLANT  2868  I understand that you used to go out to Buck Flats  with your husband to trap?  Yes.  And there are other Wet'suwet'en people who have  traplines in that area?  Yes.  Do the people who live in Moricetown who trap out  there have permission to travel through Wah Tah  K'eght's territory to get to their traplines?  They -- yes, a long time ago they -- they probably did  things like that, but now there is a big highway going  through, and just anybody uses it.  Anybody uses the highway?  Yes.  The people from Moricetown just drive up and down the  highway?  Yes.  And white men also, too, use that highway.  Clara Morris held the name Heywon?  Yes.  Is she still alive?  She's still alive, yeah.  She must be very old?  Yes, she's getting really old.  Your daughter Irene has a daughter named Virginia?  Yes.  And as I understand it, she married Ed Dewitt,  D-e-w-i-t-t, who's not an Indian?  Yes.  And Virginia lives in Toronto with her children?  Yes, they -- they working up there for — for short  period of time, and they'll be coming back.  How long have they lived in Toronto?  Yeah, they -- they went there last year.  Irene also has a daughter named Sharon, who lives in  Toronto?  Yes.  And her husband is a white man?  Yes.  Your father, Mrs. Alfred, was he a white man?  Yes.  And Irene has a son named Terry, who lives in Burns  Lake?  Yes.  Sorry, Terry is the daughter of Irene?  Terry is the son of Irene, or a son.  Thank you. 1  Q  2  3  A  4  Q  5  A  6  Q  7  A  8  THE  COURT  9  10  MR.  PLANT  11  12  THE  COURT  13  MR.  PLANT  14  15  THE  COURT  16  17  MR.  PLANT  18  THE  COURT  19  20  MR.  PLANT  21  Q  22  23  24  A  25  Q  26  27  28  A  29  Q  30  A  31  MR.  PLANT  32  33  34  THE  COURT  35  MR.  PLANT  36  37  38  THE  COURT  39  MR.  PLANT  40  THE  COURT  41  MR.  PLANT  42  Q  43  44  A  45  Q  46  A  47  Q  2869  As I understand it, your daughter Janet, your daughter  Janet lives in Telkwa with her family?  Yes.  And is she married to Thomas George?  Leonard George.  Leonard George.  The other one is the father-in-law.  :  Mr. Plant, you asked the witness about somebody's  father was a white man.  :  I beg your pardon?  The witness's father is a white  man.  :  Sorry.  :  The witness's father is a white man.  I'm not sure  if that's responsive to your lordship's comments.  :  Yes, yes, that's what I was asking.  All right.  Thank you.  Yes, thank you.  :  Sorry for the mistake there about Janet's --  :  That's the way I had it down in my notes, and I just  wanted to make sure I was right.  Well, I don't know where I got the idea that Janet was  married to Thomas George.  Janet is married to Leonard  George, and they live in Telkwa?  Yes.  Do you know if Janet and her family went to the big  barbecue in Telkwa last summer in honour of the late  Felix George?  Me and Janet, we didn't go, but the family went.  To the barbecue in Telkwa?  Yes.  :  Could I have the photograph at tab 5 of the  Plaintiffs' book of documents, Exhibit 122, placed in  front of the witness?  :  Was that produced during the evidence of Mr. Joseph?  :  No, produced during Mrs. Alfred's examination by my  friend, Mr. Rush.  It's in the Madeline Alfred  document book.  All right.  Yes, I have it.  At tab 5, my lord.  Okay.  And you've told us that this was a picture of Louis  Tommy's fish trap; is that correct?  Yes.  And you've seen that fish trap in your lifetime?  Yes.  Was it still there when you were married to the late 1  2  A  3  4  5  6  Q  7  8  9  A  10  Q  11  12  13  14  15  16  A  17  Q  18  19  A  20  21  Q  22  A  23  Q  24  25  A  26  MR.  PLANT  27  28  MR.  RUSH:  29  MR.  PLANT  30  31  32  33  34  35  MR.  RUSH:  36  37  38  MR.  PLANT  39  MR.  RUSH:  40  MR.  PLANT  41  MR.  RUSH:  42  MR.  PLANT  43  44  45  46  47  2870  Peter Alfred?  That fish trap was always there before, but -- but --  but time when I was married and then the fish trap  was -- the place where -- the fish traps were  destroyed when the fish ladder went in.  Was the fish trap there until the fish ladders were  destroyed -- I'm sorry -- until the fish ladder was  built?  Yes.  Do you remember telling us that you used to go out to  Buck Flats with your husband, Peter Alfred?  And I  think what you've said was -- or rather it went this  way:  Mr. Rush asked you, "You would go to Kanoots'  territory every two years," and you said, "Yes."  Do  you remember giving that evidence?  Yes, that's right, that's where it was.  Was there ever a time when you stopped trapping  because the prices for fur were too low?  We always leave it alone for one year so as the animal  in the territory would multiply and then --  Sometimes -- sorry.  And then we would go again after that.  Sometimes would you leave it alone for more than one  year?  No.  :  Mrs. Alfred, I have three documents here.  They are  entitled "Return of Registered Trapline Holder."  Could you show them to me first, please?  :  Yes.  And, in fact, I would add to that a fourth  document, which is -- was marked as Exhibit 10 For  Identification on the commission evidence of Lucy  Bazil and is also a Return of Registered Trapline  Holder.  Mrs. Alfred —  Just a moment.  I just want to be sure.  I haven't  seen these documents before.  Have these been  disclosed in --  :  Yes.  What number --  :  I don't know.  -- on the list?  :  They were either in document -- the A.G.B.C.  document 1276 or in the documents which I provided to  you I believe it was early last week.  And, of course,  Exhibit 10 For Identification on the Lucy Bazil  commission was marked as an exhibit on that  commission.  I -- they may come from -- the three 2871  1 original returns may come from another document  2 number, but to the best of my understanding they come  3 from the Province's document number 1276.  4 MR. RUSH:  Well, my lord, I haven't seen these documents before,  5 and I have a problem with this, and it arises out of  6 the description of document number 1276, which, if I  7 could put my hand on it in this handy little volume  8 the Province has produced to me, would tell me that  9 the documents disclosed in that document number are  10 trapline files in the Smithers' Wildlife -- Game and  11 Wildlife Office.  And, of course, I thought that we  12 had everything there was to receive from that file,  13 but on the 14th of this month I received a letter from  14 Mr. Plant, and it says,  15  16 "It has come to my attention that certain  17 documents contained in the trapline files  18 located in the Ministy of Environment's  19 offices in Smithers were not provided to us  2 0 at the time that we requested the documents  21 which were disclosed as our document No.  22 1276.  Some of the documents did not exist  23 at the time the files constituting document  24 No. 1276 were produced to us."  25  26 And I take it to mean by implication that others were.  27  28 "I have asked for production of all documents  29 in the files of traplines which appear to be  30 situated in the area claimed by Wah Tah  31 K'eght on Trial Exhibit 5.  32 Copies of the unlisted documents in  33 those files are enclosed.  34 The originals are available in our  35 offices for your inspection."  36  37 Now, I went through the documents that were passed  38 on to me that I took to be in relation to those of Mr.  39 Peter Alfred under 1276, and I didn't -- I don't  40 recall seeing these documents there.  Now, we have  41 asked for the production of all documents that are in  42 this file since having received this letter.  Now, I'm  43 very concerned about this because, again, I'm in the  44 position of having to deal with documents that are  45 coming to me before I've had an opportunity of  46 reviewing those documents with the witness.  47 MR. PLANT:  I can reassure the Court that, with respect to the 2872  1 three documents that I'm talking about right here,  2 they were produced in a document list that was  3 delivered to my friend on the 5th of February or dated  4 the 5th of February, 1987.  They do not fall within  5 the description of the documents which were the  6 subject matter of the letter that my friend's made  7 reference to.  So he's had almost a year to look at  8 these documents.  And indeed, my instructions are that  9 a request was made for copies of documents on the list  10 that those documents appear on and that an agent of my  11 friend attended at our offices and inspected the  12 actual documents which constitute our document 1276.  13 And I might go on to say this, that included with  14 those documents and available to my friend's agent, so  15 far as I am aware, was an index of the trapline files  16 that constituted document 1276.  And so that's the  17 response in respect of these three particular file  18 documents.  There is a problem that I attempted to  19 deal with by writing the letter to my friend, and if  20 my friend wants to deal with that now, I'm happy to,  21 but that doesn't apply, in my submission, to these  22 three documents.  23 MR. RUSH:  Well, I for sure want to see every document that's in  24 the Smithers' file.  I want to see everything that's  25 going to be put to a witness.  And my friend says that  26 I was supposed to have received these.  Well, I --  27 THE COURT:  No, he didn't say you received them.  He said they  28 were disclosed to an agent from your office.  29 MR. RUSH:  They were -- yes, he says they were.  That's right.  30 He says they were disclosed.  31 THE COURT:  Yes.  32 MR. RUSH:  Well, I can only say to that that if they were  33 disclosed, presumably -- and they are not part of the  34 other documents that are enclosed in this group of  35 documents that are still in Smithers, then I don't  36 know about that.  But I do know that I have received a  37 number of -- I had, I thought, and it is my  38 recollection that we ordered a photocopying of  39 everything in 1276.  40 MR. PLANT:  Well, if my friend —  41 MR. RUSH:  And I don't — I don't see those documents in 1276.  42 THE COURT:  Well, I don't know whether I need to go that far.  43 Mr. Plant is cross-examining.  He wants to put some  44 documents to a witness that he says were disclosed and  45 were inspected in February of 1987, and it's difficult  46 for me to see how I could refuse him leave to do that.  47 It seems to me the other matters you mentioned, Mr. 1  2  3  4  5  MR.  RUSH:  6  7  THE  COURT  8  MR.  RUSH:  9  10  11  12  13  14  THE  COURT  15  16  17  18  19  20  MR.  RUSH:  21  22  THE  COURT  23  MR.  RUSH:  24  25  THE  COURT  26  MR.  RUSH:  27  28  29  30  31  THE  COURT  32  33  MR.  PLANT  34  35  36  37  THE  COURT  38  MR.  PLANT  39  THE  COURT  40  41  42  MR.  PLANT  43  THE  COURT  44  45  46  47  MR.  PLANT  2873  Rush, are of a different nature.  Is there any other  reason why you say your friend shouldn't put the  documents to the witness, if they were disclosed and  inspected nearly a year ago?  Well, I'm not going to say that we didn't do that.  I  can't remember if our --  Well, I can't either.  If we can adjourn, I'm sure that I could go out and  check with my agent to see if we looked at these  documents.  I'm not prepared to say that didn't  happen.  The other reason, of course, is that -- well,  I think the documents should be put to the witness.  You'll find that her name isn't on them.  It may not -- it may not turn much, but my view in  these matters is that I have to accept the statements  of counsel in matters of this kind.  If Mr. Plant says  they were disclosed and inspected, at least disclosed,  it would be sufficient then, and the cross-examination  may continue.  Well, I want it put on the record now that I want all  the documents in this file.  In this file?  In the 1276 file, whatever that is supposed to  include, because the file is generally described.  Yes.  It contains -- it's a document list that contains a  number of files, and it is impossible to determine  from the description given in the document list or, I  dare say, in the index that's provided to it what's in  the files.  All right.  Well, your friend has notice that that  is your request.  I already had.  My friend's associate wrote to me a  letter, which he sent at 10:00 p.m. on Sunday night,  dealing with that concern, and I'm certainly prepared  to address that problem.  The --  I'm not sure that I know what that means.  I beg your pardon?  I'm not sure I know what you mean when you say  you're prepared to address the problem.  I've never  understood what that expression means.  No.  Well -- documents, documents.  Yes.  I don't think this is the time to argue the  question of the production of documents in file 1276  or whatever it is.  I rule that you may put the  documents to the witness. 1  Q  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  A  9  Q  10  11  12  13  14  15  A  16  Q  17  18  19  A  2 0 MR.  PLANT  21  22 THE  INTER  2 3 MR.  PLANT  24  Q  25  26  27  A  28  Q  29  30  A  31  Q  32  33  A  34  Q  35  A  36  Q  37  38  39  40  41  A  42  43  Q  44  45  46  A  47  2874  Thank you.  Mrs. Alfred, the four documents that I put  in front of you purport to be a return — or four  returns filed by registered trapline holders, in this  case filed by your husband, Peter Alfred, your late  husband, Peter Alfred.  Did your late husband, Peter  Alfred, have a registered trapline in the area of Buck  Flats?  Yes, I think he did.  My lord, the copy of the application form is Exhibit  95A.  Do you recall that one of your late husband's  obligations as a registered trapper was to file a  return every year showing the number of furs that he  had caught in the past trapping season?  I don't read, so I don't know about that.  Did you ever discuss with your husband the fact that  he was sending forms showing how many furs he had  caught to the game warden's office?  No.  :  Was it your habit to discuss trapping activity with  your late husband, Peter Alfred?  PRETER:  Can you ask that question again, please?  Was it your habit -- well, let me ask it this way:  You talked about trapping with Peter Alfred, your late  husband?  Yes, yes, I went with him.  Yes, you did.  And you'd talk about the trapping that  you were doing out on the Buck Flats area?  Yes.  And he never told you that he was sending forms to the  Government to tell how many furs he'd caught?  I forget myself, but he may have done that.  He may have done that?  Maybe.  Now, Exhibit 10 For Identification on the commission  examination of Lucy Bazil indicates, on my reading of  it, that for the season 1949 to 1950 Peter Alfred did  not trap.  Do you have any knowledge of that, Mrs.  Alfred?  Yes, it could have been because they always take time  out from trapping.  And I'm talking about the year now that your daughter  Vina was born.  Do you remember if you went trapping  that year?  Yes, I can remember that.  There was times when he was  involved in other work and then he didn't go out, but 2875  1 then when -- when he wasn't working, he would be out  2 there and go out to the territories.  3 Q   Your daughter Edna, was she born in March of 1951?  4 A   Yes.  5 Q   Do you know if your husband, Peter Alfred, went  6 trapping in the winter before your daughter Edna was  7 born?  8 A   No.  When Jim was alive, that is when we trapped for  9 him for two winters, and after that we never went out  10 trapping in the winter, but only in the -- in the  11 summer months.  12 Q   Is that Mooseskin Jim?  13 A   Yes.  14 Q   And when you go out in the summer, do you trap for  15 beaver?  16 A   Yes.  17 Q   Do you recall now if your husband, Peter Alfred, went  18 trapping in the 1950-'51 trapping season?  19 A   He wasn't trapping at that time because he had other  20 business at home.  21 Q   What was his other business?  22 A   Yes.  I was wondering if you were talking about when  23 he -- when you say work, if you're talking about when  24 he was a church chief, and also at that time he was  25 involved with council work, and that's why he didn't  26 go out on the territory.  27 Q   I didn't hear that word.  Household?  28 A   Council work.  29 Q   Council work.  Is that band council?  30 A  And that is one of the reasons why we -- we went out  31 only in the springtime to hunt and trap beaver.  32 Q   Well, do you recall if you went out in the  33 springtime -- if your husband went out in the  34 springtime of 1951?  That would be around or about the  35 time your daughter Edna was born.  36 A   I just finished -- I just finished telling you that  37 sometimes you don't go out on the territory for two  38 years, and then at that same time George and Peter  39 were out there.  And you've already shown me the  40 pictures.  Them are the pictures that were taken some  41 time back.  The picture of Neenlii with George and  42 Peter and them all standing there, that was taken  43 about that time period.  And they went — they went  44 out there for either every year or every other two  45 years.  46 Q   Neenlii is the waterfall?  47 THE TRANSLATOR:  153. 1  A  2  Q  3  4  5  6  7  8  A  9  Q  10  11  A  12  13  14  15  MR.  PLANT  16  17  THE  COURT  18  MR.  RUSH:  19  20  THE  COURT  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  MR.  PLANT  28  THE  COURT  29  MR.  PLANT  30  Q  31  32  A  33  Q  34  A  35  MR.  PLANT  36  37  THE  COURT  38  MR.  PLANT  39  40  THE  COURT  41  MR.  PLANT  42  43  THE  COURT  44  MR.  PLANT  45  THE  COURT  46  47  2876  Yes.  Mrs. Alfred, I have fur returns of your husband Peter  for the seasons 1951-'52, 1952-'53, 1953-'54, all of  which say that -- either that your -- that Peter  Alfred did not trap or that no furs were caught.  Do  you have any knowledge of whether or not your husband  Peter trapped during those three seasons?  I -- I don't know.  Is it possible that your husband did not trap on the  Buck Flats territory at all during those three years?  That -- that could very well be, but they are -- they  don't use the territory for -- for about two years so  as the animals will multiply, but they always go out  there to check.  :  My lord, I tender the three trapline returns as  exhibits.  :  Mr. Rush?  Well, again, they haven't been identified in any way.  I don't see any basis for tendering them on any basis.  :  Well, Mr. Plant, they can only be admissible, if at  all, as business records or do you have some other  suggestion for grounds of admissibility?  They weren't  actually put to the witness.  You were just suggesting  to her what they say, and she said that may very well  be.  They weren't put to the witness, and she wasn't  asked to identify a signature or anything.  Yes.  Well, I'll see if she can do that.  You may do that.  Mrs. Alfred, would you recognize your husband's  signature if you saw it?  How could I recognize it when I can't even read?  Did you ever see your husband sign documents?  No.  Well, my lord, I would like to give some  consideration to the question of whether --  Yes.  All right.  -- these documents may be admissible on some basis  other than business records.  All right.  As your lordship will appreciate, Mr. Alfred's not  available --  No.  — to —  Well, there's -- I think I have this right, that  there is some privity of registration between the  witness and her husband in this connection, is there 1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  2877  not?  MR. PLANT:  No, we're referring to a trapline which --  THE COURT:  It's a different one.  MR. PLANT:  -- this witness was not a member of the registered  company.  THE COURT:  All right.  Well then —  MR. PLANT:  According to the Plaintiffs' construction of their  rights, the witness had privity of right as wife of  the person who held the name.  THE COURT:  Yes.  MR. PLANT:  Which was —  THE COURT:  I'll be glad to hear you on it.  At the moment I'm  not satisfied that any of the tests of admissibility  that have been put forward have been satisfied, but  you may certainly renew your application when you're  ready to do so.  All right.  Thank you.  We'll adjourn  until ten o'clock tomorrow morning.  THE REGISTRAR:  Order in court.  Court's adjourned until ten  o'clock tomorrow.  (PROCEEDINGS ADJOURNED AT 4:00 P.M.)  I hereby certify the foregoing to be  a true and accurate transcript of the  proceedings herein to the best of my  skill and ability.  Leanna Smith  Official Reporter  United Reporting Service Ltd.


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