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Delgamuukw Trial Transcripts

[Proceedings of the Supreme Court of British Columbia 1988-02-04] British Columbia. Supreme Court Feb 4, 1988

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 1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  THE  3125  February 4, 1988  VANCOUVER, B.C.  REGISTRAR:  In the Supreme Court of British Columbia,  Thursday, this 4th day of February, 1988 on  Delgamuukw verses Her Majesty the Queen at bar, Your  Honour.  For the record, Dora Wilson-Kenni in place  of Mr. Mitchell this morning.  THE COURT:  Thank you.  Mr. Plant.  MR. PLANT:  May I have Exhibit 150 placed before Mr. Alfred.  THE REGISTRAR:  I caution the witness and Mr. Holland are still  under oath.  CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR. PLANT:  Q    Did you write this letter, Mr. Alfred, on your  mother's behalf?  A    No, I didn't write it.  Q    Do you know who did write it?  A    No, I don't.  Q    In the second paragraph it says:  "I also requesting that I will be  transferred from Bazil Michell & Company  Trapline to the Henry Alfred & Company  Trapline."  And the letter is dated November 8, 1962.  Does that  assist you in recalling whether or not the transfer  of the trapline from Peter Bazil to you occurred  prior to 1963?  No, it wasn't transferred before 1963 because '63  was the year it was transferred over to me.  And when I speak about the transfer, Mr. Alfred, I  am speaking about the transfer of the registered  trapline, you understand that?  In 1963 we transferred the trapline over and he died  in 1966.  And then the territory -- all of the  territory itself was given back to me in '67.  Yesterday you recall that you looked at the map that  I am putting in front of you.  And I asked you about  Dick Naziel whose name appears on that map in  relation to a trapline on the east side of the map.  And, my lord, for reference the trapline number that  I am referring to as it appears on Exhibit 24A and  this overlay is 0608T021 which is to the right of  the words Wah tah k'eght on the overlay.  What was the exhibit number that you mentioned a  moment ago?  A  Q  A  MR. PLANT:  THE COURT: 1  MR.  PLANT  2  3  THE  COURT  4  MR.  PLANT  5  6  THE  COURT  7  MR.  PLANT  8  Q  9  10  A  11  Q  12  A  13  Q  14  15  A  16  17  18  Q  19  THE  COURT  20  MR.  PLANT  21  Q  22  23  A  24  25  Q  26  27  A  28  Q  29  A  30  Q  31  32  A  33  Q  34  A  35  Q  36  A  37  38  Q  39  A  40  Q  41  42  THE  COURT  43  MR.  PLANT  44  THE  COURT  45  MR.  PLANT  46  THE  TRANS  47  THE  COURT  3126  24A, my lord, which is the trapline map or the map  of registered traplines for the whole area.  Yes.  From which the plastic sheet part of this overlay  was taken.  Yes.  Was Dick Naziel the brother of George Naziel, Mr.  Alfred?  Yes.  Was Dick Naziel a chief?  I didn't know his name at all, his chief name.  And that means you think he was a chief but you  don't know his chief's name, is that what you mean?  He had a name, but I forgot the name.  I do know  that George was the head of them and his name was  Madeek.  George was Madeek.  I still don't know that he was a chief or not.  I don't know if the witness does either.  Do you  know if he was a chief, that Dick was a chief?  I forgot his name, but he was using the territory  that big Peter Pierre used.  Was Peter Pierre -- or let me ask you this, what  clan was Peter Pierre?  Gitdumden.  Gitdumden also known as the Wolf Clan?  Yes.  And that's the same clan that George Naziel belonged  to?  Yes.  And Dick?  Yes.  Did Peter Pierre have a chief's name?  Yes, he had a chief name.  I am not sure, but it  could have been Madeek.  I am not sure but it could have been Madeek?  Yes.  Did Dick Naziel have a seat at the feast table of  the Gitdumden Clan?  I'm sorry, are you saying Gitdumden?  Yes.  Was that the same word?  That was an attempt.  LATOR:  301.  :  I didn't hear it as Gitdumden at all, I thought it 1  2  3  4  5  6  MR.  PLANT:  7  8  THE  COURT:  9  MR.  PLANT:  10  Q  11  12  13  A  14  15  Q  16  17  A  18  MR.  PLANT:  19  20  21  22  THE  COURT:  23  MR.  PLANT:  24  Q  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  A  35  Q  36  37  38  39  40  41  MS.  MANDELL  42  43  44  45  46  47  MR.  PLANT:  3127  was quite different.  I thought what was said a  moment ago was Skitdumden.  And I was looking for it  to see that was a word that I thought I had not  heard before, but you say that the word we've been  using this morning is Gitdumden?  That's the word that I have been using and hearing,  yes .  Thank you.  I know what you mean, thank you.  And my question was whether Dick Naziel had a seat  at the feast table, the Gitdumden feast table at the  feast hall.  His brother who was Madeek would have been sitting  in front of him.  Dick sat in front of his brother George, is that  what you are saying?  Yes.  Now, I want to ask you a question or two about a  trapline that has the number 0609T031 which is on  the west side of your territory, Mr. Alfred.  And,  my lord, it is to the left.  Yes, I have it.  Yes.  And I want to ask you to look at the map  Exhibit 24A, Mr. Alfred, and see if you can identify  for me -- I want to ask you about the trapline which  is in the area of this number here 0609T031.  And if  you would like to get close to the map, please do.  But as I read the boundaries, they start in the area  of Doughty and then they go up and they include part  of Trout Creek and the boundary goes almost as far  down as Toboggan Lake.  It goes about as far as  Evelyn.  Can you see that he, Mr. Alfred?  Where is Moricetown located now?  On this map Moricetown is here.  And your trapline  is 0608T819 which is on the east side.  Here is Kwun  Kwe Creek.  And up here is Two Bridge Lake and all  of those places are in your trapline.  So I am now  asking you about a trapline on the west side of the  Bulkley between Doughty and Evelyn.  :  Excuse me, my lord, I have got no problem with the  question he put with respect to the trapline at  Doughty and Evelyn, but I think my friend is adding  to the evidence by saying in the question your  trapline is in a certain location.  I don't think  that's been identified by the witness as yet.  Well, my lord, there has been about four days of 3128  1 evidence where this person trapped.  And I wasn't  2 trying to do anything more than trying to assist the  3 witness in sighting himself on the map and I will  4 rephrase the question --  5 THE COURT:  All right.  6 MR. PLANT:  -- to see if I can prune it of the offensive aspect.  7 Q    Mr. Alfred, you asked me where Moricetown was on  8 this map.  I am pointing Moricetown to you there.  9 And now I am asking you if you can see the area  10 between Doughty and Evelyn on the west side of the  11 Bulkley which has a number or a trapline of  12 0609T031.  My first question is do you see what I am  13 pointing to?  14 A    Yes.  15 Q    Now, my next question is is that the area which I  16 think it was Peter Bazil who told you that Jake Utes  17 was trapping or had a registered trapline?  18 A    Peter Bazil had told me to look out for this person  19 who had a registered trapline from Yenlal eed  20 iint'aay and along the foot of the mountain behind  21 Ta Begh Tai.  And that was the area that Peter told  22 me about this white man being on there.  And the  23 white man keep giving one another land and trap  24 lines and they keep stretching it out further and  25 further all the time.  2 6 MR. PLANT: Do you have a number?  27 THE TRANSLATOR:  395.  2 8 MR. PLANT  Is there a name for Ta Begh Tai  9  2 9 THE COURT  3 0 MR. PLANT  31 THE COURT  32 THE TRANSLATOR:  489  33 THE COURT:  489?  34 THE TRANSLATOR:  489  35 MR. PLANT:  That's Toboggan Lake?  Yes, I believe that's the trail for Toboggan Lake.  Yes.  36  Q  37  38  39  40  A  41  Q  42  43  44  A  45  46  Q  47  My understanding is that the person who has had that  registered trapline more recently is named Jerry  Hopps, H-o-p-p-s.  Do you know about that, Mr.  Alfred?  No, that's the first time I heard that name.  Do the white trappers who trap in the area that  Peter Bazil told you about trap there with the  permission of Wah tah k'eght?  I don't know.  He has never told me if they had  asked him or not.  They don't trap there with your permission, do they,  Mr. Alfred? 1  A  2  MR.  PLANT  3  4  5  6  7  THE  COURT  8  MR.  PLANT  9  Q  10  11  12  13  A  14  Q  15  16  17  A  18  19  MR.  PLANT  20  THE  TRANS  21  MR.  PLANT  22  Q  23  24  25  26  27  A  28  Q  29  A  30  Q  31  A  32  THE  TRANS  33  THE  COURT  34  MR.  PLANT  35  Q  36  A  37  Q  38  A  39  40  Q  41  A  42  Q  43  A  44  Q  45  46  47  3129  No.  :  I want to ask you some questions about another  registered trapline.  This trapline has the number  of 0609T032.  It is just slightly to the west of the  trapline that you were referring to a minute ago, my  lord.  :  Yes, thank you.  The trapline I want to ask you about now, Mr.  Alfred, has the number 0609T032 and on Exhibit 24A  this map here it is up at the headwaters of Trout  Creek.  Do you see that, Mr. Alfred.  Yes.  Now, as I understand it that trapline -- well, first  of all the headwaters of Trout Creek are part of the  territory of Wah tah k'eght?  Yes, where that creek starts on the other side is  where they call Teeteet.  :  373, I think?  LATOR:  373.  Now, my understanding is that the trapline in that  area that I showed you a minute ago was registered  to Moses David in 1936.  Do you have any knowledge  of Moses ever having trapline in that part of the  country?  No, I didn't know about it.  Moses David was a Wet'suwet'en person?  Yes.  And as I understand it he held the name Samooh?  Yes.  LATOR:  57.  :  Thank you.  What clan was Moses David?  He was on the same clan as Catherine Michell.  He was not a member of the Laksilyu Clan, was he?  No, he is not Laksilyu.  He would be on his mother's  side.  Moses David's father was Johnny David?  Yes.  And Johnny David was Laksilyu?  Yes.  My understanding is that sometime in the mid 1970's  Johnny Mack said that he was entitled to the  trapline in the area that we are talking about in  the upper part of Trout Creek.  Did you ever hear of 1  2 THE  3 MR.  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  15 THE  16 THE  17  18  19 MR.  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30 THE  31  32 THE  33  34  35  3 6 MR.  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  3130  that claim by Johnny Mack?  COURT:  When did you say that was, Mr. Plant?  PLANT:  In the mid-1970's.  A    These people that you are talking about have  registered traplines could very well have been  outside the boundary because what I know of the  boundary is what Peter Bazil had advised me about.  And this map also could have the registered trap  lines in the wrong place.  Q    Well, I'm not sure if that was really an answer to  the question I had asked.  Did you ever hear Johnny  Mack claiming that he had the right to trap in the  area of the upper Trout Creek that we identified a  minute ago?  INTERPRETER:  Did you say Johnny David or Johnny Mack?  COURT:  Johnny Mack.  A    I didn't know anything about that myself.  I never  heard him say that.  PLANT:  Q  A  A  COURT:  A  I also understand that in 1970 Moses David gave up  his trapline to -- the trapline in this area that we  are talking about to his son Peter David.  Have you  ever heard of that?  I think the area you are talking about would be  outside our boundary and the area you are talking  about is further out from the area called Teeteet.  Did you ever hear of Moses David giving a trapline  to his son Peter David?  What I know is that Moses David was Neg'edeld'es.  I'm sorry?  Neg'edeld'es.  TRANSLATOR:  192.  A  PLANT:  Q  A  And his son was also doing the same thing.  But  eventually it will go -- this area will go back to  the proper clan.  Does Neg'edeld'es describe the right to trap on your  father's territory?  Neg'edeld'es means that if you are trapping in your  father's clan's territory or your father's territory  and you trap there as a son or child and when the  father passes away you no longer are supposed to be  in that area.  It goes back to -- the territory goes  back to the person who takes the name after.  Sometimes does this Neg'edeld'es extend to the  grandson also such as from Moses David to Peter  David? 1  A  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  Q  9  A  10  Q  11  A  12  13  Q  14  A  15  16  MR.  PLANT  17  THE  COURT  18  19  A  20  THE  COURT  21  MR.  PLANT  22  Q  23  A  24  Q  25  A  26  THE  TRANS  27  THE  COURT  28  MR.  PLANT  29  THE  COURT  30  31  MR.  PLANT  32  A  33  THE  COURT  34  35  A  36  THE  COURT  37  MR.  PLANT  38  Q  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  3131  Yes, the grandchild can also go in there.  Yes, as  long as the owner of the territory is alive they can  go in there as Neg'edeld'es.  For an example,  Sylvester William, he held the territory of his  grandfather.  But as soon as there was a successor  to the name Caspit he returned that territory back  to the proper owner or proper successor.  Mr. Alfred, have you ever heard of Louie Tommy?  Yes.  Do you recall what his clan was?  He was -- he is of the same clan as Laksilyu, but he  comes from Kwen Beegh Yex.  He comes from what?  Kwen Beegh Yex.  He was -- John Namox was the  successor to him.  :  I think Kwen Beegh Yex is 413.  :  Thank you.  What is 413 Kwen Beegh Yex, is that a  house?  That is a house within a clan.  :  Thank you.  The chief of that House is called Wah Tah Kwets?  Yes.  And that name is now held by John Namox?  Yes.  LATOR:  69.  I'm sorry, 69?  I have it as 409.  It is 409 also.  Well, I am sorry, Wah tah k'eght is a house, is it  not?  Well, my understanding is -- ask the witness.  Wah tah k'eght is John Namox's name.  I see.  And he is the Wah tah k'eght chief of the  House of Kwen Beegh Yex?  Yes.  Thank you.  Now, Mr. Alfred, I want to ask you some questions  about another trapline, it is 0609T061 which is in  the upper left-hand part of the Wah tah k'eght  territory as drawn on the overlay territory, my  lord.   Now, 0609T061, Mr. Alfred, is in the area  here and I will help you locate it.  There is  Moricetown, here is Porphry Creek in the middle of  the boundary of 0609T061 and goes up to Mud Flat  Creek on the north and across the river from Kwun  Kwe in the south.  Do you see where I am pointing 1  2  A  3  Q  4  5  6  7  A  8  9  10  Q  11  12  A  13  14  15  Q  16  A  17  MR.  PLANT  18  19  20  21  THE  COURT  22  MR.  PLANT  23  Q  24  25  26  27  28  29  A  30  31  32  33  34  35  THE  COURT  36  MR.  PLANT  37  Q  38  A  39  Q  40  41  42  43  44  A  45  Q  46  47  3132  first of all?  Yes.  My understanding is that a trapline in that area has  been registered to a man by the name of Sam Jones  for a number of years, can you confirm that? And if  you want to have a look again at the map, please do.  No, no. I don't know anything about registered trap  lines. What I do know is where my territory  boundaries are.  Do you know Sam Jones to have been a person, a  Gitksan person?  I know a lot of people amongst the Gitksan and I  have heard of this person, but I don't know him at  all.  Do you know where he trapped?  No.  Now, Mr. Alfred, I want to ask you some questions  about your interoggatories.  I have taken the  liberty of photocopying some extracts.  I have a  copy for your lordship.  Thank you.  I have reproduced the first two pages of the  affidavit which have Mr. Alfred's signature.  This  is the second set of interoggatories, my lord.  Mr.  Alfred, would you please look at Question Number 60  and the answer to that question and tell me if the  answer is true.  Yes, these names on there, some of them are farmers  and some of them are Swanson.  Some of them are  farmers.  Swanson lives up close to Moricetown, but  some of these other farmers live north of C'ede'i  Kwe and some towards the junction going towards  Snake Road.  The question was whether the answer is true.  I am going to try again, my lord.  Is the answer to question 60 true, Mr. Alfred?  Yes.  Thank you.  Could you turn to the page over, please.  And I have set out on that page Question 78, all the  parts of Question 78 and your answers.  Would you  read them, please, and my question is are the  answers true?  Can you read them out for me.  Yes, I will:  'Q76  What is your personal knowledge of: 1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  A  12  Q  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  A  24  25  26  Q  27  A  28  Q  29  A  30  31  Q  32  A  33  Q  34  35  A  36  Q  37  38  39  40  A  41  Q  42  43  A  44 THE  COURT  45  A  4 6 MR.  PLANT  47  Q  3133  (a) non-Indians, if any, who have  harvested, managed or conserved resources  within your House's territory at any time  since first European contact."  That's the first part of the question.  Your answer  is -- well, you asked me to read the question.  If  Mr. Holland can assist you in translating the  question then let's try that and then tell me if the  answer to that part of the question is correct.  Yes.  The second part of the question is:  "If there were or are any non-Indians, the  resources involved."  And you said:  "Non-Indians were trapping and I do not  know why or what for."  Is that correct?  In the south area where Jake Utes was trapping when  Allen Fletcher, them were the ones I was referring  to.  Is the answer to question 378(b) true?  Yes.  Is the answer to question 78(c) true?  Yes, that's the area I was talking about was Ta Begh  Tai.  And is the answer to question 78(d) correct?  Yes.  Is the place which you call in answer to question  78(a) Meadow Creek also known as Meed Creek?  Yes.  May I have Exhibit 164 before the witness, Madam  Registrar.  Mr. Alfred, I have asked to have the map  Exhibit 164 placed before you.  Can you locate for  me approximately where Spring Hill is?  Up here around here somewhere where the number 5 is.  It is around where number 5 is.  And that is the  number 5 in red?  Yes.  Is it on the Telkwa Road?  Yes.  After Peter  I am going to ask you questions on 1  2  3  4  5  6  7  MS.  MANDELL  8  9  10  11  THE  COURT:  12  MS.  MANDELL  13  THE  COURT:  14  MR.  PLANT:  15  Q  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  A  33  34  35  36  37  Q  38  39  MS.  MANDELL  40  41  MR.  PLANT:  42  MS.  MANDELL  43  44  45  46  THE  COURT:  47  MR.  PLANT:  3134  another subject for a minute, Mr. Alfred.  After  Peter Bazil took you -- let me start again.  After  you had your meeting with Peter Bazil which you say  took place in 1963, to your knowledge did Peter  Bazil then go to Smithers to transfer the territory  to you?  :  Excuse me, my lord, I think that question again  invites ambiguity.  I don't think the witness has  said that the territory was transferred to him in  1963.  He was talking about the trapline.  He said the transfer took place in 1967.  :  Of the territory, that's right.  Yes.  Mr. Alfred, I am going to place before you  Interrogatory 85 which I don't have a copy of.  And  let's go through it part by part.  "Q85(a)  What is your personal knowledge  of:  (a)  The institutions which are referred to  in paragraph 55F of the further Amended  Statement of Claim?"  And you said:  "The feast hall."  Was that answer true?  And I would be happy to refer  you to paragraph 55F of the further Amended  Statement of Claim if you would like to see it.  I know when that question was put to me I was  thinking of the time when Peter Bazil was at the  Stone Feast and the name was given to me and the  territory was transferred over to me.  That is what  I thought they meant by that.  That is not my question, Mr. Alfred.  My question is  was the answer to question 85(a) true?  :  Before the witness answers, I can't understand how  he can answer without the Statement of Claim.  I have already volunteered to put it and if --  :  Well, perhaps the whole question which is a  question that he can answer can be put to him.  I am  sure he doesn't know what 55F of the Statement of  Claim is.  55F?  It is 55F.  I have read the whole question to the 1  2  3  4  THE  COURT  5  MR.  PLANT  6  7  8  THE  COURT  9  10  MR.  PLANT  11  THE  COURT  12  MR.  PLANT  13  14  15  16  THE  COURT  17  18  MR.  PLANT  19  THE  COURT  20  MR.  PLANT  21  Q  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  A  32  Q  33  34  35  36  37  38  A  39  40  Q  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  3135  witness, my lord, and I am more than happy to put  55F.  The allegation in paragraph 55F as it then was  is now --  Are you talking about 57F?  Is now Paragraph 57F in the Amended Statement of  Claim which has gone through several amendments  since the date of the interoggatories.  57F was 55F at the time of the delivery of the  second set of interoggatories?  At the time of the set of the first set.  This is the first set?  The questions haven't changed.  The reason there is  a second set is we had a chambers proceeding in  order to get further and better answers to some of  the questions.  I am favourably deposed to Mrs. Mandell's question  that perhaps you can put this to the witness.  I am quite happy to do that.  He may better understand.  In what is now paragraph 57F of the further Amended  Statement of Claim, Mr. Alfred, you say or it is  said on your behalf that:  "The Plaintiffs and their ancestors have  maintained their institutions and exercised  their authority over the territory through  their institutions."  Do you see that, Mr. Alfred?  Yes.  And so now turning back to question 85(a) in the  interoggatories that asked you what is your personal  knowledge of the institutions which are referred to  in this paragraph of the Statement of Claim.  And  your answer was the feast hall and that answer was  true, correct?  Yes, the feast hall is where the discussions take  place and the decisions are made.  Now, later on in question 85(c) you were asked for  instances prior to the commencement of this action  of the exercise of authority over the territory by  the members of your House and their ancestors and  you state:  "When I was younger Peter Bazil took me on  the territory to show me where it was.  He 3136  1 went to Smithers and transferred the  2 territory to me.  This was while he was  3 alive.  When he died I received his name a  4 year later."  5  6 Was that statement by you true, Mr. Alfred?  7 A    I didn't know about him going down there.  But he  8 must have because later on the game warden sent me a  9 letter in regards to that.  10 Q    Was the answer that I have just read to you a  11 correct statement, Mr. Alfred?  12 A    Is yes, that answer is correct except I didn't know  13 about him going to Smithers.  14 Q    Do you have the letter that the game warden sent  15 you, Mr. Alfred?  16 A    I may still have that letter.  I am not sure.  I  17 have a lot of important papers put away it might be  18 amongst them.  19 MR. PLANT:  Well, I ask my friend to take the steps to produce  20 them if they are available if they can be found.  21  22 (ADDITIONAL INFORMATION REQUESTED)  2 3 MR. PLANT:  24 Q    Mr. Alfred, I want to show you another of your  25 answers and this one is the answer to question 59(a)  26 which is part of the material that I did hand up to  27 your lordship.  And Mr. Alfred, would you please  28 read the question 59(a) and answer -- tell me  29 whether or not it is true, the answer is true?  30 A    Yes, that's right.  31 Q    And could you read question at (b) and the answer  32 and tell me if that is right, the answer is right?  33 A    Yes, that is right.  What was written down there  34 reflects on what I had meant to talk about my  35 grandmother relating to me.  36 MR. PLANT:  My lord, I would ask that this document be marked as  37 an exhibit.  38 THE COURT:  Any objection?  39 MS. MANDELL:  No, there is no objection.  4 0 THE COURT:  Yes, all right.  41 THE REGISTRAR:  Exhibit 181, my lord.  42  43 (EXHIBIT 181:  Affidavit of Henry Alfred sworn  44 January 11, 1987 and attached interoggatories))  45  46 MR. PLANT:  I am just about finished.  In fact, I am finished  4 7 but I wonder if I might have a few moments to 3137  1 consult with my associates.  Would it be convenient  2 to take the morning adjournment now?  3 THE COURT:  Yes, we will take the morning adjournment now.  4 THE REGISTRAR:  Order in court, court will recess.  5 (PROCEEDINGS ADJOURNED FOR A SHORT RECESS)  6  7  8  9 I HEREBY CERTIFY THE FOREGOING TO  10 BE A TRUE AND ACCURATE TRANSCRIPT  11 OF THE PROCEEDINGS HEREIN TO THE  12 BEST OF MY SKILL AND ABILITY.  13  14    15 LISA REID  16 OFFICIAL REPORTER  17 UNITED REPORTING SERVICE LTD.  18 (PROCEEDINGS RECONVENED PURSUANT TO MORNING RECESS)  19  20 THE REGISTRAR:  Order in court.  Ready to proceed, My Lord.  21 THE COURT:  Plant?  22 MR. PLANT: My Lord, I have had Question 85, which we spent a few  23 minutes with before the break, reproduced and I  24 would ask that it be attached to the excerpt of the  25 interrogatories that have been marked.  2 6 THE COURT  2 7 MR. PLANT  2 8 THE COURT  As part of Exhibit 181?  Yes, My Lord.  Any objection, Miss Mandell?  29 MS. MANDELL:  No, I have no objection.  30 THE COURT:  All right.  Okay.  Would you attach it physically to  31 the same document, please Madam Registrar?  32 MR. PLANT: I have another copy to attach to Your Lordship's  33 copy.  34 THE COURT:  Thank you.  Madam Registrar, would you staple them  35 together for me, please?  36 THE REGISTRAR:  Yes.  37 THE COURT:  Thank you.  38 MR. PLANT:  I have made certain requests for production of  39 documents.  Depending on what comes of those  40 requests, I may be in the unpleasant position of  41 having to request that the cross-examination be  42 reopened, but I certainly can't say whether or not  43 that's going to happen at this time.  Apart from  44 that, however, My Lord, I have no further  45 questions --  4 6 THE COURT:  All right.  47 MR. PLANT: — of Mr. Alfred.  Thank you very much, Mr. Alfred. 3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  3 9 MR  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  Mr. Macaulay?  MACAULAY:  3136  1 THE COURT:  Thank yoi  2  CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR.  Q   Mr. Alfred, you were a member of the Moricetown Band  Council?  A   Yes, it was some time ago.  Q   And your brother was a member -- your brother Cecil  was a member of the Moricetown Band Council?  A   I couldn't recall at this time.  Q   Wasn't he a member of the Moricetown Band Council in  1975 and 1977 and 1979?  A   I've forgotten at this time.  Q   And your father Peter Alfred was a member of the  Moricetown Band Council?  A   Yes, I think he was some time ago.  Q   Well, he was chief councillor wasn't he at one time?  A   Yes, I think so.  Q   And is it your understanding that there was a path on  the west side of the Bulkley River through your  territory, a foot path that your ancestors used, a  foot path that went by Toboggan Lake and up to  Moricetown?  A   Yes, my grandmother had told me about foot trail  leading from Moricetown to S'aay K'e Tai to up along  Ta begh Tai.  Q   And that foot path led also to Hagwilget?  A   Yes, my grandmother told me there was a foot path down  there, but I can't say which side it was on, and I  was also told about they went to Babine from the  Hazelton area.  Q   You mean there was another foot path from the Hazelton  area to the Babine country?  A   Yes.  I know of two foot paths which I was told about,  one was from the Hazelton area going to Babine and  then one from -- went from Moricetown which Bazil  told me about.  Moricetown to Babine?  Yes.  THE COURT:  THE WITNESS:  MACAULAY:  Q   But was there a foot path between Moricetown and  Hagwilget that your ancestors used?  A   Yes, there was a trail going into Hagwilget also  because people used to also go there for feasting  during the summer months.  Q   And there was a foot path from Moricetown going south  to Telkwa and farther south than that?  A   Yes, there was a trail leading south, and a party of 1  2  3  4  Q  5  6  7  A  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  Q  16  17  18  19  A  20  21  22  23  24  Q  25  26  A  27  28  29  Q  30  31  A  32  33  34  Q  35  36  A  37  38  Q  39  40  41  42  A  43  44  45  Q  46  47  A  3139  people would use these trails and as they went along  different parties went into their respective  territories.  You're talking now about different houses at  Moricetown who would go south to their various  territories south of Moricetown?  Yes, my grandmother had told me about the different  people who are in different clans would go into the  different territories and then in the summer they  would all gather at Moricetown for the fishing  season, and when the fishing season was over they  would take their smoked salmon and then they would  take that out into their territories along with  them.  And those same paths, I'm talking now about the ones  going north to Hagwilget and south to Telkwa and in  that direction, those paths were also used by fur  traders in the early days?  My grandmother had told me about the people using the  trails leading south and north, but she never told  me about fur traders using the trails at all, and  this is the first time I've heard of it when you  asked me that question.  How about missionaries, did she tell you that  missionaries had used those paths in the early days?  That's -- yes, my grandmother had told me about a  priest coming into the area and where he travelled I  didn't know about.  And did your grandmother tell you about the time when  horses first appeared in the Wet'suwet'en lands?  My grandmother never told me about when horses came in  to Wet'suwet'en lands, but there was horses around  when I -- when I could first remember.  And did your grandmother tell you that the foot path  became a wagon road after -- before you were born?  She didn't tell me about the usage of wagons at all,  but she did tell me about using dogs for packing.  You have never heard that wagons were used earlier --  early in this century, late last century and early  this century, in the Wet'suwet'en lands on that path  going north and south?  My grandmother never told me about the usage of wagons  at that time, but I -- roads were made by the time  when I could remember wagons were still in use.  You're -- are you talking about the highway that's now  Highway 16?  I didn't know anything about Highway 16 at that time, 1  2  3  4  Q  5  6  A  7  8  Q  9  10  11  12  A  13  14  15  Q  16  17  18  A  19  20  21  Q  22  23  24  A  25  26  27  28  29  Q  30  31  A  32  Q  33  34  35  A  36  37  38  39  Q  40  41  A  42  Q  43  44  45  46  A  47  Q  3140  but I was pretty small.  I can barely remember when  they used to travel on the Telkwa High Road with  horse and wagon.  The railroad follows close to the present highway,  does it, that is south of Moricetown?  The train travels further back and the highway is some  distance away from it.  How far apart -- this is south of Moricetown.  How far  apart in your territory, that is, the territory of  Wah tah k'eght, are the present highway and the  railroad?  Yes.  At one point north of Moricetown the highway  goes across the track and in other areas they're  apart about a half a mile or better in some points.  And do the highway -- does the highway or the railroad  follow the ancient path that was used by your  ancestors?  Yes, my grandmother told me about the trail and around  the area of Dzah Bet K'be Tai and Ta begh Tai is  almost right on there, right on the old foot trails.  And did your grandmother or anyone else tell you about  the Collins Overland Telegraph being built through  the territory of Wah tah k'eght?  She never told me about the building of the telegraph  line, but the only thing she told me about it was  that there was a telegraph line across from the  village of Moricetown.  That was the only area she  told me about.  Did you hear anything about the telegraph line in the  feast hall?  No, they never told me about that.  Did your grandmother ever tell you about the building  of the railroad early in this century before the  first world war?  My grandmother also was just like my mother, she  didn't speak English and she never told me about the  building of the railroad and she never spoke about  it.  Did you hear about the building of the railroad in the  feast hall?  No.  No.  The railroad crosses the Bulkley River near  Moricetown, right?  I'm sorry.  I'm sorry, crosses  the highway near Moricetown, not the river, crosses  the highway near Moricetown?  Yes, there's a crossing just north of Moricetown.  Did any of your ancestors work on the railroad when it 1  2  A  3  4  Q  5  6  A  7  8  9  Q  10  11  A  12  13  Q  14  15  16  A  17  Q  18  19  20  A  21  22  23  Q  24  25  A  26  27  28  29  Q  30  31  32  A  33  34  35  36  Q  37  A  38  39  40  Q  41  42  43  A  44  45  Q  46  47  A  3141  was being built?  My ancestors never spoke about working on the railroad  all that I know of.  Did any of your family or your ancestors make ties for  use on the railroad?  My family never made ties for the railroad and I don't  know anything about if my ancestors had been  involved with making ties.  Do you know if members of other houses who lived in  Moricetown made ties for use on the railroad?  I heard talk of people living around there making  ties, but I wouldn't know who it was.  Do you know of any person who had the name Wah tah  k'eght objecting to the railroad going through the  territory of Wah tah k'eght?  No, I don't know.  Have you yourself objected since you became Wah tah  k'eght?  Did you yourself object to the railroad,  the presence of the railroad in your territory?  I think it would be pretty hard for me to speak  against the railroad when it's already in place and  in use by the time I became Wah tah k'eght.  When you worked for the C.N.R. did you do work in the  territory of Wah tah k'eght?  I believe I worked there approximately nine years at  Moricetown and then they transferred me out for  about three years to Prince George area and I didn't  like it so I quit.  When you worked out of Moricetown you were based there  and you went to work along the track every day; is  that right?  We were looking after -- based in Moricetown we looked  after a distance of about eight mile from Doughty  and north of Moricetown for a short distance for the  area of about eight miles.  And you were a foreman?  When I was stationed there I worked as a section man,  but when the foreman was away I was -- I worked as a  relief foreman.  Did any members of your house, that is, the House of  Wah tah k'eght or the House on a Flat Rock work with  you or under your supervision?  I think it was for approximately one season my brother  was hired on.  And when you worked for the C.N.R. based in  Moricetown, were you Wah tah k'eght?  I wasn't Wah tah k'eght during the time, but I did 1  2  Q  3  4  5  A  6  7  8  Q  9  10  A  11  Q  12  13  14  A  15  Q  16  A  17  18  Q  19  20  A  21  22  23  24  Q  25  26  A  27  28  29  Q  30  31  A  32  33  34  Q  35  A  36  37  38  Q  39  40  A  41  42  43  44  45  46  Q  47  3142  take the name Wah tah k'eght just prior to quitting.  Now, is it part -- was it part of your job when you  were in Moricetown to make sure that the culverts  were clear of debris?  We kept the mouth of the culverts clear of debris.  We  didn't touch anything else other than around the  area, just keeping the culverts clear.  And did you know or do you know why the culverts had  to be kept clear?  We kept it clear so the water would flow through.  And if the water -- if you didn't keep it clear, the  water would build up in the area of the culverts; is  that right?  Yes.  And that would endanger the track or the track bed?  Yes, we kept it clear so the track bed won't erode  when the water rises.  And in cases where the C.N.R. took out beaver dams, it  was to avoid flooding the track or track bed?  These beaver dams that they blow up are sometimes  outside of the fence.  It's not -- the dams are not  at the culverts but away from them.  I've seen them  do that twice.  The two times that you saw them do that, do you  remember what year or what years they were?  They didn't do this while I was working there, it was  only quite recent.  It was about three, four years  ago that I knew of.  Did you ask anyone who was in a responsible position  in the C.N.R. why they were doing that?  I didn't inquire about it, but in one case this beaver  dam was downstream from the railroad.  I never did  figure out why they would blow that dam up.  How about the other case?  Yes, where they been blowing these dams up I live only  about three-quarter of a miles away from there.  You  can hear them when they blast it, blast a dam.  When the beavers build a dam the water backs up  doesn't it and rises?  This beaver dam I'm talking about which was downstream  was there for a long time, and the ones they were  blowing up upstream they -- they blow up the dam  upstream three times and then the third time that --  when they went around the third time they also blew  up that one that was downstream.  Well, beaver dams cause the water to rise upstream  from them don't they, the water level to rise 1  2  A  3  4  5  Q  6  7  8  A  9  10  Q  11  A  12  Q  13  14  A  15  16  17  18  19  Q  20  21  A  22  23  Q  24  25  A  26  Q  27  28  29  A  30  31  32  Q  33  34  A  35  36  37  Q  38  39  A  40  41  Q  42  43  A  44  45  Q  46  47  A  3143  upstream from them?  This area that we're talking about wasn't a creek or a  stream it was a swamp.  There's no way there could  be any wash-outs at all.  Did you -- I'll try again.  These beaver dams, the two  locations you mentioned, were they in your  registered trap line area?  The area I'm talking about is within Bazil Michell's  registered trap line.  That's within my territory.  You yourself don't trap there?  No.  Who traps there now in that area where the dams were  blown up?  I don't know much about Bazil's activity at this time,  but I would assume that he send his children  probably do the trapping for him there, and I won't  be discussing the situation there until such a time  as Bazil passes on and then I will talk about it.  Did the band council take any interest in the blowing  up of beaver dams by the C.N.R.?  No, I don't think so.  They don't talk about things  like that.  These beaver dams that were blown up, were they on an  Indian reserve?  It would be outside the reserve.  Have you spoken to the tribal council about this  problem, that's the Gitksan/Wet'suwet'en Tribal  Council?  I never talked to anybody about what was happening  because Bazil was the one that's caretaking that  area.  Are you a member of the Gitksan/Wet'suwet'en Tribal  Council?  I'm not a member of them, but I do participate in the  meetings when they -- when they have meetings with  the chiefs.  Is anyone from your house, the House of Wah tah  k'eght, a member of the tribal council?  Out of my house members, referring to your translator,  myself, I -- he works with the tribal council.  Your answer is that George Holland is a member of the  tribal council?  I don't know about being a member, but I know he works  with them.  And other than George Holland, no member of your house  is a member of the tribal council or works for them?  Like I said, I'm not a member of it, but I participate 3144  1 in all their meetings when they gather -- have a  2 gathering for the chiefs.  3 Q   Is there any particular person on the tribal -- who's  4 a member of the tribal council who looks after your  5 house's interests?  6 A   I myself as Wah tah k'eght look after the territory,  7 but the tribal council act as spokesman for us.  8 Q   Does the tribal council deal with matters pertaining  9 to fishing at Moricetown?  10 A   Yes, they speak on it.  11 Q   Does the Moricetown Band Council have anything to do  12 with fishing at Moricetown?  13 A   Yes, the Moricetown Band Council in conjunction with  14 tribal council and the chiefs all discuss this.  15 Q   And who deals with the fisheries' officials and with  16 the Department of Fisheries on behalf of the  17 Wet'suwet'en at Moricetown?  18 A  Victor works with -- and Neil Sterritt, and they  19 communicate with tribal council and they speak on  20 behalf of the Wet'suwet'en.  21 Q   Is Victor -- you're referring to Victor Jim?  22 A   Yes.  23 Q   Is he a member of the band council?  24 A   I forget at this time, but I can always ask him.  25 Q   Did Victor Jim ask you if the people at Moricetown  26 should go back to the clan fishing holes?  Did he  27 ask your opinion on that?  28 A   Yes.  They gather of all the chiefs at a meeting and  29 they discuss the matter on this fishing and Victor  30 was there only as -- to take notes and write down  31 what's been said.  32 Q   Well, did he ask the chiefs whether smoke houses  33 should be built in the canyon, Moricetown Canyon?  34 A  Victor didn't say that at all, but the chiefs were the  35 ones that requested and made that recommendation and  36 Victor just took notes on that.  37 Q   Did the chiefs decide that in the future fishing  38 should be done on the basis of clan fishing  39 locations?  40 A   Yes, in the chiefs' meeting they talked about the  41 future use of the fishing sites now that some of  42 the -- some of the fishing sites had been destroyed  43 that belonged to different clans.  They are still --  44 and they're discussing this now.  45 MR. MACAULAY:   I see it's 12:30, My Lord, I'm — I will be  46 returning to fishing, but I have a few more  47 questions of this witness. 3145  1 THE COURT:  All right.  Thank you, two o'clock.  2 THE REGISTRAR:  Order in court.  Court will adjourn.  3  4 (PROCEEDINGS ADJOURNED FOR LUNCH RECESS)  5  6 I hereby certify the foregoing to  7 be a true and accurate transcript  8 of the proceedings herein to the  9 best of my skill and ability.  10  11  12 Tanita S. French  13 Official Reporter  14 (PROCEEDINGS RESUMED AT 2:00)  15 THE REGISTRAR:  Calling Delgamuukw verses Her Majesty the Queen  16 at bar, my lord.  17 THE COURT:  Mr. Macaulay.  18 CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR. MACAULAY:  19 Q    Mr. Alfred, just before the adjournment you were  20 giving evidence about a meeting of all the chiefs at  21 which certain fishing matters were being discussed  22 and at which Mr. Victor Jim was taking notes.  When  23 was that meeting?  What year?  24 A    It would have been about early 80's is when we had  25 meetings.  26 Q    Now, was there discussion of what to do with pink  27 salmon at that meeting between the chiefs?  28 A    We didn't talk about the pink salmon, but we just  29 talked about the fishing itself.  30 Q    Now, could the witness be shown Exhibit 164.  Now, I  31 draw your attention to that part of your territory  32 as shown on this exhibit.  On the eastern side, the  33 right-hand side where you have the word "goats" in  34 blue and then a blue circle around it, that  35 boundary.  You see this boundary here?  36 A    Mh'm.  37 Q    Whose territory lies beyond that part of your  38 boundary?  39 A    I wouldn't know exactly who has the territory  40 outside of that boundary.  I would have to ask my  41 mother on that and then I would know.  42 Q    Mount Cronin is either on that boundary or just  43 outside it?  44 A    Mount Cronin is some distance away.  45 Q    And in whose territory is Mount Cronin?  4 6 A    I don't know who owns that territory over where  47 Mount Cronin is. 1  Q  2  3  4  5  A  6  7  8  Q  9  A  10  Q  11  A  12  13  Q  14  15  A  16  Q  17  18  A  19  Q  20  21  A  22  Q  23  A  24  Q  25  A  26  Q  27  A  28  Q  29  30  A  31  Q  32  33  A  34  Q  35  36  A  37  Q  38  A  39  Q  40  41  A  42  Q  43  44  A  45  46  47  Q  3146  Does any part of your eastern boundary, that is on  the right-hand side of this exhibit have Babine  country beyond it?  In other words, have you got a  common boundary with the Babine Indians?  Like I told you before, I would have to consult with  my mother before I can confirm that.  All I know is  the boundary of my territory.  Did you know the Babine Wat Tah Kwets?  I think her name was Lotty who was in Babine.  Did she die recently?  I think it was quite recent, maybe three, four years  ago.  And was she a member of your house, that is the  house on a flat rock?  Yes, she belongs in that house.  And does her family belong in the house on the flat  rock?  Yes.  Do you know Frank Patrick a member of the Babine  group of Indians?  Yes.  And his chief's name is Wah tah kwets?  Yes.  And he is Laksilyu?  Yes.  And he is a member of the house beside the fire?  Yes.  There are three houses in your clan, are not there,  the Laksilyu Clan?  Yes.  And that is the house on the flat rock, the house  beside the fire and the house of many eyes?  Yes.  And the head chief of the house of many eyes is  Hagwilnegh?  Yes.  Is there a Hagwilnegh in the Babine country?  No.  Peter Bazil was the chief, the head chief of your  house before yourself?  Yes.  And he had the regalia of the house on a flat rock  including a mask and other items?  Yes, he had brought the regalia back from Babine and  brought it back to the village.  And I don't know  anything about it from there.  Did you ask him where it was when he was alive? 1  A  2  3  4  5  6  7  Q  8  A  9  Q  10  11  A  12  Q  13  14  A  15  16  17  18  Q  19  20  21  A  22  23  24  25  26  Q  27  28  A  29  Q  30  31  32  A  33  34  35  36  37  38  Q  39  A  40  Q  41  A  42  43  44  45  Q  46  47  3147  I didn't see the regalia myself.  I don't know about  it, but from what my mother told me is when they  brought it back from Babine and there was a storage  shed where Joe Nass used to live and it was stored  there.  And from there they don't know where it  went.  When was it taken to Babine country, that regalia?  I don't know about that, it was before my time.  In this lawsuit you represent all the members of the  House of Wah tah k'eght; is that right?  Yes.  Do those members include the children of the  recently deceased Wah tah k'eght of Babine country?  That is why there is two Wah tah k'eght, one from  Babine area and the one from Babine area is a  spokesman from the Babine area.  And I myself as Wah  tah k'eght speak for the members in our area.  So you do not represent the members of the House of  Wah tah k'eght of the Laksilyu Clan who live in  Babine country?  We all come from one house, but with Wah tah k'eght  and Babine would speak on our behalf if we are not  present there and the same goes for our area.  If  they are not present I speak on their behalf.  We  more or less help and work together.  You are all descendant from a common ancestor or  ancestors?  Yes.  And for instance the children of the late chief Wah  tah k'eght of Babine country have rights on the  territory shown in Exhibit 164?  Because we all come from the -- like you said from  the same common ancestors if they wanted to come  into use Wah tah k'eght territory, the one which I  am looking after, they would come and consult with  me and let me know.  And then I would give them  permission to go on the territory.  They speak the same language as you do?  Yes.  You attend their feasts?  Yes, I have been out to -- I went out to Fort Babine  where they had a feast.  I went out there twice to  attend there.  I went out there twice to participate  in their feast.  And the reason that Bazil Michell has for his whole  lifetime control of almost half your territory is  that he assisted Peter Bazil in Babine country at a 3148  1 funeral feast?  2 A    Peter Bazil went to -- went out to Babine country to  3 bring the name back.  And Bazil Michell assisted him  4 in many ways such as goods, taking goods out there  5 to conduct a funeral feast out there and to help him  6 with the funeral feast and to bring the name back.  7 So that was why he was given permission to use the  8 west side of the territory in appreciation.  9 Q    And was that when Peter Bazil brought the regalia,  10 the blanket, the mask and apron and other things  11 back to Moricetown?  12 A    Yes, when the name was brought back from Babine that  13 is when the regalia was brought back with the name.  14 But I believe also there was someone designated to  15 receive a name for that area also.  16 MR. MACAULAY:  Madam Registrar, could you show the witness  17 Exhibit 128.  It is a seating plan.  18 THE REGISTRAR:  128?  19 MR. MACAULAY:  It is in a black binder.  My lord, it is tab 3 of  20 the book.  21 Q    It would probably be easier if you took it out, Mr.  22 Alfred, because it is in two parts.  However, I am  23 only asking you about your side.  I believe the  24 house on a flat rock, the members of that house, are  25 on the left-hand side as you look at the  26 photograph -- I mean look at the chart.  Now, you  27 are shown a sitting next to Hagwilnegh in that  28 seating plan?  29 A    Yes.  30 Q    And Hagwilnegh is the senior chief in that plan, is  31 he?  32 A    Yes.  33 Q    And you are the head chief of the house on a flat  34 rock?  35 A    Yes.  36 Q    And the next most important chief is your mother  37 Madeline Alfred in your house?  38 A    Yes.  39 Q    And then the next most important chief in your house  40 after that is Bazil Michell; is that right?  41 A    Bazil was from a different house, but he holds a  42 name from our house so he would be included in our  43 house.  44 Q    That's why he is seated there next to your mother at  45 the feast, is it not?  46 A    Yes.  47 Q    He does not have a name in his own house? 1  A  2  3  4  Q  5  A  6  7  Q  8  A  9  Q  10  11  A  12  13  14  15  Q  16  17  18  19  A  20  21  22  23  Q  24  25  26  27  A  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  Q  38  39  40  41  42  A  43  44  45  46  47  3149  I am not familiar with his name from his own house,  but I would have to consult with my mother to know  the name.  You don't know if he has a name in his own house?  He has a name.  I think my mother would probably  know that.  Is it a chief's name?  It is a pretty big name also.  When you have important decisions to make do you  consult your mother and Bazil Michell?  Yes, we would -- I would consult with them, but  since Bazil is sick and weak these days mother and  Xax and myself, we would all consult with one  another.  People who are travelling through your territory on  the public highway don't need your permission just  to travel through your territory to some other  territory, do they?  The highway has been put there for people to travel  on.  If you were so concerned why did you not ask  Wah tah k'eght's permission before you put the  highway in there.  But before the white man came to the Bulkley Valley  it was not the law or rule, was it, that a  traveller, somebody just travelling through on the  ancient footpath had to ask your permission?  The foot trails that you speak of were almost like a  common trail because when they had feasts before the  white man came they had feasts people would gather.  And people would come from different areas.  And  they would speak about coming from their territories  and then after the feasting is over they would go  back to their territories.  And it would be just  like notifying people of where they were going to  their territories and when they were going to be  leaving.  But somebody who was travelling through your  territory, not stopping, travelling through your  territory wasn't expected to ask your permission to  travel on the footpath, ask your ancestor's  permission, the former Wah tah k'eght?  A long time ago our ancestors pretty well knew when  to expect one another because when they went out on  the territories for the winter months everybody knew  when they were leaving and they also knew about the  time when they were to be expected back.  So people  always knew when somebody was travelling. 1  Q  2  3  4  A  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  Q  12  13  A  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  Q  22  23  A  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  Q  32  A  33  34  35  Q  36  37  A  38  39  40  Q  41  42  43  A  44  45  46  47  Q  3150  Well, if a Cheslatta Indian wanted to go to  Hagwilget, did he have to ask your ancestors  permission?  A long time ago in our ancestors time if a person  coming from Cheslatta was going to go through the  territory he would stop at the boundary.  And there  was always somebody travelling through and he would  wait there until such a time as somebody with  authority came by and then he would ask permission  to use it.  In the trapping season that person might have to  wait a long time.  My grandmother told me that the members of the  territory owners always utilize the territories and  the trails so there is always somebody coming by.  Even through trapping season there would always be  somebody out there using the territory.  And during  fishing season same thing, there is always somebody  travelling through on the trails.  And when they are  berry picking the same thing.  And that rule applied to each house as you went  along the trail, each house's territory?  Yes, this would apply to clan territories.  But  everybody always knew who was travelling where  because they used to have meetings.  It is not like  it is today.  A long time ago they had schedules.  When they had meetings all the different clans would  participate and everybody knew where they were  travelling and where they were coming from at what  time.  When did moose first appear in your territory?  As far back as I can remember there was moose in the  territory.  And I've never heard anything about the  coming or going of the moose.  Is it your understanding that there was always moose  in your ancestor's time in your territory?  My grandmother never spoke about moose, but she  always talked about caribou which they lived off the  meat and stuff.  Well, do you understand her to be saying that  instead of moose there used to be caribou in your  territory?  My grandmother never spoke of moose, but spoke of a  time when caribou used to be plentiful in the  territory.  But myself since I can remember I've  seen moose.  Now, in your evidence several days ago you mentioned 1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  THE  THE  A  COURT:  A  COURT:  A  A  A  A  A  Q  A  3151  a fish trap that you refused to sell or to give to a  museum, is that your evidence?  Do you remember  that?  Yes, about two years after I became Wah tah k'eght  some white man --  I'm sorry, two years after what?  After I became Wah tah k'eght.  Thank you.  A white man came to me and asked me about that fish  trap.  I don't know how he came to know about this  fish trap, but he asked if he could take it to a  museum.  And I said no because that fish trap was  put in place up at Tedeltl'ets by Bazil, Peter  Bazil's mother.  And Peter Bazil used to look after  the fish traps itself and always restored it for  safekeeping.  Was that fish trap or those fish traps if there was  more than one of them used for salmon?  They have fish traps for trout.  It wasn't meant for  spring salmon.  Was this fishing regulated by the Department of  Fisheries or by the game warden?  We are talking a long time ago here.  There was no  such thing as game warden around in them days.  The  time we are talking about was when Peter Bazil was  pretty young and his mother's time.  And they  regulated and they looked after the fishing  themselves.  Has that fish trap or any fish trap like it been  used in your lifetime?  This fish trap that we are talking about I never  seen it myself.  But my mother and my father and  Cecil have seen it and they also never used it.  And  Peter Bazil never used it.  But he looked after it  for safekeeping and his mother had used it before  him.  Fishing at Moricetown is regulated by the fisheries  officer?  What time period are you talking about, the time of  my grandmother's time or are you talking about  present?  Today and in your lifetime?  I remember when there was a fish warden in my  lifetime.  But the Indians always looked after the  fishing and fishing regulations themselves before.  You have obtained Indian fish food licenses from  time to time? 3152  1 A    I've never had a fish license in my life.  But at  2 one time when I was old enough or big enough to gaff  3 the game warden or the fish warden gave me a permit,  4 a permit which he gave me himself.  5 Q    I will show you a photocopy of a document called an  6 Indian Fish Food License for 1981.  There is a  7 signature in the bottom left-hand corner above the  8 date July 17, 1981.  Do you recognize the signature?  9 A    Yes.  10 Q    Is that your signature?  11 A    Yes.  12 MR. MACAULAY:  Could that be marked, my lord.  13 THE REGISTRAR:  Exhibit 182, my lord.  14  15 (EXHIBIT 182: Indian Fish Food License dated July 17, 1981)  16  17 MR. MACAULAY:  18 Q    And you've had other licenses like that?  19 A    Yes, I went out fishing with Pat Mitchell one time.  2 0 I just went along to accompany him when he went  21 fishing.  And he was -- he didn't want to get into  22 trouble for anything so he asked me to pick up a  23 fishing license just for that week that I went out  24 with him when I accompanied him on his fishing trip.  25 Q    And every year a certain number of days is set aside  26 for fishing, there is a beginning and an end to the  27 season at Moricetown Canyon?  28 MS. MANDELL:  I think that question is a bit ambiguous.  I  29 wonder if it can be framed in a different way.  30 MR. MACAULAY:  I will do my best.  31 Q    Each year the Department of Fisheries puts up a  32 notice stating the opening day for food fishing; is  33 that right in Moricetown Canyon?  34 A    Depending on the time period you're talking about.  35 A long time ago I have seen notices like that  36 posted.  When there was closure for fishing on  37 Saturday and Sunday, but I haven't seen any notices  38 like that lately.  39 Q    Well, I understand you don't do any fishing  40 yourself; is that right?  41 A    No.  42 Q    And what you are saying is you are not aware of any  43 beginning day of a season -- of the season each  44 year.  If there is one you don't know about it?  45 A    I don't go gaffing anymore so I don't know.  Now, if  46 I was gaffing I might know something about it.  47 Q    Do any members of your house go gaffing? 1  A  2  3  4  Q  5  A  6  7  Q  8  9  10  11  12  A  13  14  Q  15  A  16  17  18 THE  COURT  19  2 0 MR.  MACAU  3153  Nobody in our immediate family goes gaffing, but  mother informed me that some of the other members of  the clan go gaffing.  Your brother Cecil used to go gaffing?  Yes, he used to go gaffing at one time, but I  haven't seen him gaffing recently.  How about Alec Thomas, is he a member of your house?  Is there somebody named Alec Thomas in your house?  It is not a trick question.  It is a name that  appears on the genealogical list.  Maybe the witness  would like to look at the genealogy.  Yes, I know Alec Thomas.  I think he is a member of  our house.  Is he a fisherman?  I don't know anything about his activity.  He lives  amongst the white people so I don't know what he  does .  All right.  Shall we take the adjournment.  How are  we getting along?  f:  I will be finished soon.  I don't expect to be  21 more than half an hour.  22 THE COURT:  All right.  23 THE REGISTRAR:  Order in court, court will recess.  24 (PROCEEDINGS AJOURNED FOR A SHORT RECESS)  25  26  27  28  29 I HEREBY CERTIFY THE FOREGOING TO  3 0 BE A TRUE AND ACCURATE TRANSCRIPT  31 OF THE PROCEEDINGS HEREIN  32 TRANSCRIBED TO THE BEST OF MY  33 SKILL AND ABILITY.  34  35    36 LISA REID  37 OFFICIAL REPORTER  38 UNITED REPORTING SERVICE LTD.  39  4 0        (PROCEEDINGS RECONVENED PURSUANT TO AFTERNOON RECESS)  41  42 THE REGISTRAR:  Order in court.  Ready to proceed, My Lord.  43 THE COURT:  Mr. Macaulay?  44  4 5 MR. MACAULAY:  46 Q   Who was Wah tah k'eght before Peter Bazil?  47 A   I didn't know the person, person itself, but that's 3154  1 the one my mother calls Heywon.  2 THE TRANSLATOR:   488.  3 THE COURT:  Sorry?  4 THE TRANSLATOR: 488.  5 THE COURT:  Thank you.  6 MR. MACAULAY:  7 Q   How did the name get transferred to the Babine  8 country?  9 A   I heard my grandmother mention that he got married out  10 at Babine.  That's when he went out there.  That's  11 how the name got to be out there.  12 Q   Is that Heywon who went out to Babine country?  13 A   He went out there when he got married and he was from  14 our -- from our house and he was related to my  15 grandmother.  16 Q   When a person takes the name Wah tah k'eght, is it  17 necessary for that person to have the approval of  18 the chiefs of the other two houses, that is, the  19 House Beside the Fire, chief of the House Beside the  20 Fire, and the chief of the House of Many Eyes?  21 A  When the name like Wah tah k'eght is passed on, all  22 three houses within the Laksilyu clan would consult  23 with one another and they would agree on it before  24 the name was passed.  25 MR. MACAULAY:   Those are my questions for this witness.  Thank  26 you, Mr. Alfred.  27 THE COURT:  Thank you.  Re-exam by Ms. Mandell?  28 MS. MANDELL:  I have just a few questions for re-direct.  2 9 THE COURT:  Thank you.  30  31 RE-EXAMINATION BY MS. MANDELL:  32 Q   Mr. Alfred, do you read Wet'suwet'en words?  33 A   No.  34 Q   Did you speak at the Overlap Feast in Moricetown in  35 1986?  36 A   I didn't speak myself, but Hagwilnegh as a high chief  37 spoke there.  38 Q   And at the All Clan's Feast in Burns Lake in 1987 did  39 you speak there?  40 A   I didn't speak there either, but I attended as a  41 witness to listen to what was being said.  42 Q   Okay.  You were shown this map, the one that's been  43 marked as Exhibit 5 in court the other day by Mr.  44 Plant, and I was wondering whether or not before  45 this time when you were shown this map in court had  46 you ever been shown this map before?  47 A   I think I seen that map at a meeting, Burns Lake All 3155  1 Clan's Feast.  2 MS. MANDELL:   So was -- did you carefully compare the  3 territories of Wah tah k'eght that you saw on the  4 map at Burns Lake with this map?  5 MR. PLANT: I thought the witness just identified Exhibit 5 as  6 the map that he thought he had seen at Burns Lake.  7 I may have misheard.  8 THE COURT:  He said that.  The question now is did he carefully  9 examine Wah tah k'eght's territory?  10 MR. PLANT: I'm sorry, I thought there was something about "Did  11 you carefully compare this map?"  12 THE WITNESS:   Yes, I seen it from where I was sitting.  I  13 didn't examine it close up.  14 MS. MANDELL:  15 Q   Okay.  Now, you were asked some questions from the  16 interrogatory which has been marked Exhibit 181 and  17 I'd like to ask you some questions about that  18 exhibit.  I'm going to ask you a question about  19 Question 59.  Can you see that question?  It's at  20 the bottom of page 12, and Mr. Holland can interpret  21 for you if you require.  I'm asking you with respect  22 to 59 (e).  23  24 "Have there been any changes in the  25 boundaries of your House's territory since the  26 date of first contact between the Gitksan..." and  27 should be probably the Wet'suwet'en "...and  28 representatives of any European nations?"  29  30 And then your answer:  31  32 "At one time the territory incorporated the  33 area north and south of the Bulkley River.  Now it  34 is just north.  Jake Uetz apparently now claims  35 ownership around Evelyn and up towards the  36 Kitsegukla territory.  I do not know how he got  37 this.  Bazil Michell owns this side.  Peter Bazil  38 at one time let Bazil look after it."  39  40 Those were the answers which you gave to that  41 question.  Do you need any of that translated?  42 MR. PLANT: Before the translator carries on, I'm awaiting Ms.  43 Mandell's question arising out of her having read  44 the question and answer from the interrogatories.  45 MS. MANDELL:  46 Q   Well, I can ask the question and that can be  47 translated.  The question I wanted to ask you was 3156  when you were answering that question, what did you  understand boundaries to mean in that context?  A  When I'm -- when I say boundary I'm speaking of the  whole of the Wah tah k'eght territory that  circumferences the whole area of Wah tah k'eght.  MS. MANDELL:   When you say "the whole of the Wah tah k'eght  territory", are you talking about the territory, the  8 area within the Wah tah k'eght territory?  9 MR. PLANT: Well, I object to that question, My Lord, I mean —  10 MS. MANDELL:  11 Q   Well, perhaps you could explain what do you mean by  12 the whole of Wah tah k'eght's territory?  13 A  When I say the whole of Wah tah k'eght territory, I'm  14 speaking of the traditional boundaries as it was a  15 long time ago.  And when I speak of the boundaries,  16 that is the boundaries that were explained to me by  17 Peter Bazil.  18 MS. MANDELL:   According to your best understanding of the  19 situation, did your boundaries as explained to you  20 by Peter Bazil change when Jake Uetz, for example,  21 claimed a trap line?  Did the traditional boundaries  22 of your territory change at that time?  23 MR. PLANT: I object to this question, My Lord.  Area boundaries  was gone into at considerable length.  Well, it was, but I see no harm in it, Mr. Plant.  All right.  Jake Uetz is mentioned in the interrogatories, but  it came up in cross-examination and I see no harm in  it.  It's very subjective.  Our -- the boundaries will never change the way  they had been when our ancestors used it and the  area that Jake Uetz uses as on the trap line  registry, that boundary will never change and same  thing where Allan Fletcher's name appears, that  boundary will never change and the way -- the way  Peter Bazil had explained it to me and showed it to  me, they are the traditional lines that our  ancestors had and that's the way it will always be.  MANDELL:  Q   You mention Mr. Fletcher, Al Fletcher, do you know who  gave Al Fletcher the registered trap line that he  has?  A   I didn't know how Al Fletcher got the trap line  registry there and Bazil didn't know how he got it,  but all I know that -- is that Allan Fletcher was a  game warden also at that time and I always thought  that he was outside across the Driftwood Creek.  24  25 THE  2 6 MR.  27 THE  28  29  30 THE  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  3 9 MS.  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  PLANT:  COURT  PLANT  COURT  WITNESS: 3157  1 Q   Okay.  I wonder now then if I could ask you a question  2 about in the interrogatory number 85.  You were  3 asked here of your knowledge of instances prior to  4 the beginning of this action of the exercise of such  5 authority over the territory by members of your  6 house and their ancestors, and you said:  7  8 "When I was younger Peter Bazil took me on  9 the territory to show me where it was.  He went to  10 Smithers and transferred the territory to me".  11  12 In that context what did you mean by "territory"?  13 A  At the time when I went out on the territory with him,  14 that is when the trap line registry was transferred  15 over to me, but when I speak of the territory I -- I  16 undertook the task of and responsibility of doing  17 the Stone Feast a year later after his death and I  18 took the name Wah tah k'eght and that is when all of  19 the territory was passed onto me.  20 Q   Okay.  You were asked if Moses or Peter David actually  21 trapped -- I'm sorry, you were asked if you knew if  22 Moses or Peter David had a registered trap line on  23 your territory and you said "No."  My question is  24 whether or not you know if Moses or Peter David  25 actually trapped on your territory?  2 6 A   No.  27 MS. MANDELL:   Did you ever attend any —  28 THE COURT:  I'm sorry, are you saying they didn't or are you  29 saying you don't know if they did or not?  30 THE WITNESS:   I didn't know.  31 THE COURT:  Thank you.  32 MS. MANDELL:  33 Q   Did you ever attend any feasts where it was announced  34 that meat from your territory had been brought in by  35 either Moses or Peter David?  36 A   His feast?  37 Q   Any feast?  38 A   No.  39 Q   If Moses or Peter David were to actually trap on your  40 territory, would it be common that they would get  41 your consent to do that?  42 A   Yes, if they are to hunt in my territory they would  43 ask my permission.  44 Q   Okay.  You were asked some questions about the tribal  45 council, and I wanted to ask you whether or not it's  46 your understanding that the Gitksan/Wet'suwet'en  47 Tribal Council works on behalf of the hereditary 3158  1 chiefs?  2 A   Yes.  They would be working on behalf of the chiefs  3 and what recommendations and what we say they would  4 take directions from us.  5 Q   All right.  And do you consider that they work on your  6 behalf in that regard?  7 A   Yes.  8 Q   And when you were asked this morning, I believe it was  9 by Mr. Macaulay, whether you are a member of the  10 tribal council and you said "No.", what did you  11 understand membership to mean in that context?  12 A  When Mr. Macaulay asked me at that time I thought he  13 meant that I was -- I would be an employee of the  14 tribal council and that I was working for them.  15 That's what I thought.  But now I say yes because  16 they are working for us now.  17 MS. MANDELL:   All right.  I just wanted to check something.  18 You were asked about Mount Cronin and I'm wondering,  19 do you know the Wet'suwet'en word for Mount Cronin?  2 0 Do you know where that mountain is and what the  21 Wet'suwet'en word is for it?  22 MR. MACAULAY: I have to object to the one part of that question,  23 My Lord.  The witness gave evidence that Mount  24 Cronin was some distance away from his frontier.  2 5 THE COURT:  Yes.  26 MR. MACAULAY:  The implication is that he knows Mount Cronin or  27 he knows about it, knows roughly where it is.  I  28 don't think it's open to my friend to say -- to  29 ask -- to cross-examine on that.  30 THE COURT:  The question at the moment is merely "Do you know  31 the Indian name for Mount Cronin?"  32 MR. MACAULAY:  There were two questions.  33 THE COURT: Oh, there were two questions.  34 MR. MACAULAY:  And I don't object to that question.  35 THE COURT:  Well, which question do you want --  36 MS. MANDELL: Well, what I really didn't know myself was whether  37 or not the witness knew -- whether or not Mr.  38 Macaulay and the witness were both talking about the  39 same place.  40 THE COURT:  The witness said that in his evidence at least three  41 times that Mount Cronin was beyond his boundaries,  42 not just to Mr. Macaulay, but he said it yesterday  43 at least twice.  44 MS. MANDELL: I'm happy if that's the way the record now shows  45 it.  46 THE COURT:  Well, I'm sure it does.  But I think you're entitled  47 to ask if he knows the Indian name for Mount Cronin. 3159  1 MS. MANDELL:  2 Q   All right. Well, let's clear that up then and that  3 will settle it.  Do you know the Wet'suwet'en word  4 for Mount Cronin?  5 A   It is a distance away so I don't know the name to --  6 Wet'suwet'en name for that because my uncle and my  7 grandmother never told me about it.  8 Q   Mr. Macaulay was asking you about when Heywon, who was  9 then Wah tah k'eght, went to Babine, and he asked  10 you how the name Wah tah k'eght got transferred to  11 the Babine country, and my question to you is did  12 that name ever get transferred to the Babine  13 country?  14 A  Well, he got married out Babine while he -- and he  15 moved out there while he had the name.  It was never  16 transferred out there permanently and that is why  17 Bazil, Peter Bazil and Bazil Michell went out there.  18 They were instructed to bring the name back and to  19 save any dissension that there was, that name was  20 designated to somebody out there.  21 Q   You were shown Exhibit 182, and perhaps that could be  22 put to the witness.  Mr. Alfred, when you yourself  23 did do salmon fishing at Moricetown you testified  24 earlier that you would fish by way of gaffing; is  25 that correct?  26 A   Yes.  27 Q   Well, I noticed on the permit here that the type of  28 gear which is identified for your use in the Skeena  29 River is salmon gillnet and salmon set net.  Do you  30 see that on the permit?  31 A   Yes.  32 Q   Have you ever fished by either salmon gillnet or  33 salmon set net in the Skeena?  34 A  When the other person asked me about this earlier I  35 remembered that Pat Mitchell had asked -- asked me  36 to accompany him fishing and he himself had a  37 fishing licence and for me to accompany him, and I  38 wanted to see how the fishing was done on the coast  39 at that time and I went along for the trip, one week  40 trip, and Pat Mitchell was afraid of that there  41 might be some trouble over because I didn't have a  42 licence to  43 accompany him.  Just to be on the safe side he asked  44 me to pick up one of these and he went along with  45 me.  We went and picked up this licence here.  That  46 was on the coast.  47 MS. MANDELL: Okay.  Thank you.  Thank you, My Lord, those are 1  2  THE  COURT:  3  4  5  6  7  THE  WITNESS  8  9  10  THE  COURT:  11  THE  WITNESS  12  13  14  15  THE  COURT:  16  17  THE  WITNESS  18  19  20  THE  COURT:  21  THE  WITNESS  22  23  THE  COURT:  24  25  THE  WITNESS  26  THE  COURT:  27  THE  WITNESS  28  29  30  31  32  THE  COURT: ,  33  34  MS.  MANDELL  35  36  THE  COURT:  37  MS.  MANDELL  38  39  40  THE  COURT:  41  MS.  MANDELL  42  43  44  r>  45  46  47  3160  the questions which I have.  All right.  Thank you, Mr. Alfred, just one matter I  wanted to ask you about.  Are the Babine -- no, I'll  put it another way.  Are the members of your house  who live in what's been called the Babine country,  are they Wet'suwet'en people?  Yes, the one that held the name Wah tah k'eght is  from our house and is Wet'suwet'en, but went out  into the Babine area.  When, do you know?  Yes.  If you're speaking about the lady Lottie  who named -- who held the name Wah tah k'eght, they  are Wet'suwet'en from our house and who had moved  out there.  And did they move out there recently or a long long  time ago?  Yes, it was a long time ago.  I don't know the  dates, but that's when he married a guy by the name  of West out there.  She did?  Yes, she married a guy by the name of Dominique  West.  And do you know when that was, in your lifetime for  example?  Yes, this probably happened before my time.  How did she get the name Wah tah k'eght?  Yes, the name originated from us, but when it  went out to Babine and then Peter Bazil and them  brought the name back and somebody was designated to  hold the name out there for that area and it was  passed on down from there.  All right.  Thank you.  How are we getting along and what's next?  What's next?  Tomorrow I hope to start the  evidence of Alfred Mitchell our next witness.  Yes.  We're not proceeding at the timetable that we had  thought we were.  Mr. Mitchell I expect will be two  days on direct.  Yes.  I might advise that although Mr. Mitchell really I  think speaks English to a degree, he also is going  to  require the assistance to a degree of a Wet'suwet'en  translator.  Mr. Holland, because of the funeral,  will be leaving us tomorrow, and we've asked Victor  Jim if he will stand in Mr. Holland's place for the 1  2  3  THE  COURT:  4  MS.  MANDELL  5  6  THE  COURT:  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  MS.  MANDELL  15  16  17  18  THE  COURT:  19  MS.  MANDELL  20  21  22  THE  COURT:  23  24  25  26  MS.  MANDELL  27  THE  COURT:  28  29  30  31  MS.  MANDELL  32  33  THE  COURT:  34  MR.  PLANT:  35  36  37  THE  COURT:  38  MR.  PLANT:  39  40  41  42  THE  COURT:  43  MR.  PLANT:  44  45  THE  COURT:  46  MR.  PLANT:  47  THE  COURT:  3161  day and then Mr. Holland will be back next week and  will take over from there.  I see.  All right.  :  And we expect that Ron Mitchell will be back  tomorrow doing words.  I see.  All right.  Well, we're grateful for the  assistance we received in that important capacity  today anyway.  Thank you, ma'am.  The question --  the reason I asked the question namely was to know  if the next witness would be Wet'suwet'en and  whether I should keep all these documents here or  whether I should clean them up.  They may be useful  to keep them here.  : Well, there is a new document book which will be  presented and there is, to my knowledge, a very  minimal amount of document overlap between these two  witnesses, but My Lord --  I see.  :  -- I think that it probably would be prudent to --  I think you should keep some of the documents.  I  think there's going to be some --  All right.  I'll just pile them up at the end of the  of the table.  All right.  The other thing is will  it be convenient if we do not sit tomorrow  afternoon?  :  Yes, it's fine from our side.  All right.  I'm not sure what time the proceedings  start tomorrow, but it may be that I will adjourn at  12 o'clock, but if we're in the middle of something  that's important we can carry on.  :  We were expecting that we would be adjourning at  12.  Yes.  My Lord, just one other brief matter.  Some time ago  you asked about the size of the territory of Wah tah  k'eght.  Oh, yes.  As depicted on Exhibit 5, which is not as it's  depicted or described elsewhere, I'm advised that  the area is approximately 537 square miles, or if  Your Lordship would prefer 139,000 hectares.  No, I would not prefer that.  I don't have a measurement for the area as described  by the witness.  No.  You said the area was how many square miles?  537.  All right.  Well, that's a very useful piece of 1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  MR.  THE COURT  MR.  THE  MR.  THE  MR.  RUSH:  COURT  RUSH:  COURT  RUSH:  THE  MR.  THE  MR.  THE  THE  THE  3162  information that may never go anywhere, but --  MACAULAY: There's one other matter perhaps that we can  address tomorrow, My Lord,  and that's the map, the  miniature map.  Yes, all right.  Is it convenient to deal with that  first thing in the morning Mr. Rush and Miss  Mandell?  I rise on this occasion for the third or fourth time.  Yes.  I've talked to our cartographer in Hazelton who had a  quick look at the map --  Yes.  -- at the beginning of the week and couldn't advise me  at that time, and I said please look at it again I  know it's going to come up, and I hope that I'll be  able to tell you tomorrow that he has and that I can  tell you --  Yes, all right.  -- our position on it one way or the other.  Well, Mr. Macaulay's shown a certain persistency to  now, he may mention it again tomorrow morning.  Thank you.  REGISTRAR:  May the witness be excused?  COURT:  Yes, the witness may be excused.  Thank you, sir.  Thank you, madam reporter.  REGISTRAR:  Order in court.  Court will adjourn.  (PROCEEDINGS ADJOURNED AT 4:00 p.m.)  I hereby certify the foregoing to  be a true and accurate transcript  of the proceedings herein to the  best of my skill and ability.  Tanita S. French  Official Reporter  COURT  RUSH:  COURT  RUSH:

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