Open Collections

Delgamuukw Trial Transcripts

[Proceedings of the Supreme Court of British Columbia 1987-06-22] British Columbia. Supreme Court Jun 22, 1987

Item Metadata


JSON: delgamuukw-1.0019279.json
JSON-LD: delgamuukw-1.0019279-ld.json
RDF/XML (Pretty): delgamuukw-1.0019279-rdf.xml
RDF/JSON: delgamuukw-1.0019279-rdf.json
Turtle: delgamuukw-1.0019279-turtle.txt
N-Triples: delgamuukw-1.0019279-rdf-ntriples.txt
Original Record: delgamuukw-1.0019279-source.json
Full Text

Full Text

 1593  Alfred Joseph (for Plfs.)  In chief by Mr. Rush  1 Smithers, B.C.  2 June 22, 1987  3  4 THE REGISTRAR:  Order in court.  In the Supreme Court of British  5 Columbia, this 22nd day of June, 1987, Delgamuukw and  6 others and Her Majesty the Queen.  7 THE COURT:  Mr. Rush.  8 THE REGISTRAR:  Witness, I remind you you are still under oath.  9  10    EXAMINATION IN CHIEF CONTINUED BY MR. RUSH:  11 Q   We were talking on Friday, Mr. Joseph, about your  12 territory, and I wanted to ask you today if -- if you  13 or another chief can sell your territory?  14 A   No.  15 Q   And is that true with other Wet'suwet'en chiefs?  16 A   Yes.  17 Q   They can't sell their territory?  18 A   Yes.  19 Q   Okay.  And can use of the territory be given on a  20 temporary basis?  21 A   Yes.  22 Q   Okay.  And does it require the permission of the chief  23 for that to have -- to occur?  24 A   Yes.  25 Q   Now, can a sub-chief be given authority over a part of  26 the territory?  27 A   Yes.  2 8 Q   And how does that happen?  29 A   They are given -- are told to look after certain parts  30 of the territory.  If there is a big territory,  31 it's -- and then there's two or three valleys in it,  32 each person is -- each chief is told to take care of  33 different areas.  34 Q   Okay.  And do you know of an example of that?  35 A   Yes, I think the one that is south of Houston between  36 Kanoots and Madeek is one that the two chiefs share  37 one territory.  38 Q   And who are the two chiefs?  39 A   Kanoots, Peter Alfred; and Madeek, the late George  40 Naziel.  41 MR. RUSH:  I think those names were given to you, my lord, on  42 Friday.  43 THE COURT:  I didn't get the — I got Madeek, but the other I —  44 one I thought he said was --  45 MR. RUSH:  No, he said Kanoots.  That's 110.  4 6    THE COURT:  Thank you.  47 Madam Registrar, I don't seem to have my list of 1594  Alfred Joseph (for Plfs.)  In chief by Mr. Rush  1 names that I thought I had collected the other day.  2 Would you have a look?  3 THE REGISTRAR:  I'll look for it.  Would you like the exhibit?  4 THE COURT:  No, no.  I have that exhibit.  5 Go ahead, Mr. Rush.  I'll be all right.  6 MR. RUSH:  7 Q   All right.  Thank you.  8 Now, Mr. Alfred -- Mr. Joseph, can you tell me  9 whether there have been any changes in the boundary of  10 your territory?  11 A   No.  12 Q   Did you see the map that was delivered with the  13 answers to the interrogatories?  14 A   Yes.  15 Q   All right.  And you filed interrogatory answers?  16 A   Yes.  17 Q   Okay.  Now, are there differences between that map  18 that was submitted with the interrogatories and what  19 you have described as the boundary of the territory of  20 Gisdaywa?  21 A   Yes.  22 Q   And could you just tell his lordship, if you can,  23 where those changes are to the boundary of the  24 territory?  25 A   The first change is the -- on the map that I've seen,  26 and I've talked it over with Andy George, and it's an  27 area just about north-west of Morice River on the C'el  28 tay toostaan Kwe.  29 Q   And what river is that?  30 A   That's Houston Tommy Creek.  31 Q   Okay.  And do you recall what the -- the map showed  32 that was delivered with the interrogatories?  33 A   It showed that in -- part of the boundary was running  34 along the Houston Tommy Creek, and it should have  35 followed the -- the valley at the height of land from  36 north-west of Houston Tommy Creek, and the area that  37 wasn't included was an area, a plateau, where there  38 was no trapping done.  39 Q   How was that area used?  40 A   It was used as hunting territory.  41 Q   And —  42 A   It was —  43 Q   Yes.  44 A   There was no -- it was just -- there was no place for  45 trapping in that area, plateau.  4 6 Q   All right.  And you said that you came by this change  47 in discussion with Andrew George? 1595  Alfred Joseph (for Plfs.)  In chief by Mr. Rush  1  A  2  Q  3  4  A  5  6  Q  7  A  8  9  Q  10  11  12  A  13  Q  14  A  15  16  Q  17  A  18  MR. RUSH:  19  THE COURT  20  MR. RUSH:  21  Q  22  A  23  24  25  Q  26  27  A  28  Q  29  A  30  Q  31  A  32  33  34  35  Q  36  37  A  38  Q  39  A  40  Q  41  42  A  43  Q  44  45  46  A  47  MR. RUSH:  Yes.  All right.  Okay.  And was there another change in the  boundary map that you noticed?  Yes.  There's another one to the east where a mountain  or a hill, we call it Ts ee Ggexw C'en --  That's 179, my lord.  -- was too far west on interrogatory map and was  supposed to be further to the east.  The actual place that the mountain -- that this  mountain was located was farther west on the  interrogatory map?  Yes.  Okay.  And it also showed that the boundary was running --  didn't include Tadek, Tadek Ben.  That's 189, my lord.  And that was supposed to be included.  189.  :  Thank you.  I just missed your last answer, Mr. Joseph.  That was supposed to be included, but it was -- the  boundary was west of Tadek Ben, and it was supposed to  include Tadek Ben.  And did you bring these changes to the attention of  the map maker?  Yes.  Okay.  And was there another change in the --  Yes, there was another change.  -- in the boundary of the interrogatory map?  Yes, it's an area south-east of Biiwenii where the  boundary followed Peter Alec Creek for a ways and then  there is another mountain, a small hill, south of  Peter Alec Creek, and it goes up to that mountain.  And do you know that -- do you know the name of that  mountain?  Wey iis t'an t'aak.  Okay.  And you said it was south of Biiwenii?  South-west of Biiwenii.  And did you -- is that Biiwenii Ben that you meant to  say?  Yes, Biiwenii Ben.  Yes.  If you look on your map, my lord, you'll see  that the area south-west of Biiwenii shows a mountain  that is -- would you just repeat the name again?  Wey iis t'an t'aak.  It's not on the list, my lord, but it -- 1596  Alfred Joseph (for Plfs.)  In chief by Mr. Rush  1  THE  COURT  2  MR.  RUSH:  3  THE  COURT  4  MR.  RUSH:  5  THE  COURT  6  MR.  RUSH:  7  8  THE  COURT  9  MR.  RUSH:  10  11  THE  COURT  12  13  MR.  RUSH:  14  15  16  THE  COURT  17  MR.  RUSH:  18  19  THE  COURT  20  MR.  RUSH:  21  Q  22  A  23  Q  24  A  25  26  27  Q  28  A  29  Q  30  A  31  THE  COURT  32  MR.  RUSH:  33  Q  34  A  35  Q  36  37  38  A  39  40  41  42  43  Q  44  45  A  46  Q  47  :  Is it N-e-d-i-n-a-a-y?  It -- it is spelt W-e-y i-i-s --  :  Oh, all right.  t-'-a-n t-a-a-k.  :  I'm sorry.  Can you show me where it is?  Yes.  It's right virtually right at the bottom here.  With the north -- here.  :  I think I've got mine upside-down.  Yes.  The north side should be up on your right-hand  side.  And Biiwenii Ben --  I've got Biiwenii Ben.  I don't have any trouble  with it.  All right.  If you go slightly to the south and to  the west, you'll see the mountain, which is called Wey  iis t'an t'aak.  :  Yes.  And I believe that's what the witness has referred  to.  :  All right.  And how did you come to know about that change?  Well, it —  -- Mr. Joseph?  The boundary on the interrogatory showed that the  land -- their line ran north from there, and it  wasn't -- it was supposed to follow the creek.  And the creek at that point is which creek?  Peter Alec Creek.  And what's the Wet'suwet'en name for that?  I just forgot.  :  Maybe you could lead on that.  I think it's T'azdlii Kwe.  T'azdlii Kwe.  Yes.  All right.  Now, was there another change in the  interrogatory map from what you've described as the  territory of Gisdaywa?  The -- that again is up in the north, the headwaters  off Houston Tommy Creek, and there is a peak north of  the water -- headwaters of Houston Tommy Creek, which  is Seselii t'oogh, which wasn't included in the  interrogatories.  Seselii t'oogh is 306, my lord.  And should it have been included?  Yes.  And do you -- can you -- do you know why it wasn't  included? 1597  Alfred Joseph (for Plfs.)  In chief by Mr. Rush  1  A  2  3  4  Q  5  6  A  7  MR.  RUSH:  8  9  THE  COURT  10  MR.  RUSH:  11  Q  12  A  13  Q  14  A  15  Q  16  17  A  18  MR.  GOLDI  19  20  THE  COURT  21  MR.  RUSH:  22  THE  COURT  23  MR.  RUSH:  24  THE  COURT  25  MR.  RUSH:  26  THE  COURT  27  MR.  RUSH:  28  Q  29  30  31  32  33  A  34  Q  35  36  A  37  Q  38  39  A  40  Q  41  A  42  43  Q  44  45  A  46  Q  47  Well, I guess -- I think the -- the map maker may have  used it as a boundary, but the peak is owned by  Gisdaywa.  I see.  So the boundary should have gone to the  peak?  Yes, around the peak.  My lord, I think I was in error in saying it was 306.  Seselii t'oogh was 185.  :  Thank you.  185.  Thank you.  And did you draw that to the attention of --  Yes.  -- Mr. Marvin George?  Yes.  And as a result of that was the boundary, to your  knowledge, changed on a subsequent map?  Yes.  3:  Is my friend tendering those two maps as exhibits,  my lord?  :  Well, one of them is in already.  One of them is for identification.  :  That's part of Exhibit 62.  Yes.  :  Are you tendering the other map?  No, I'm not.  :  All right.  I expect your learned friend might.  I suspect he will.  Now, Mr. Joseph, you indicated in your testimony  that permission could be given to other Wet'suwet'en  people to use the territory of a Wet'suwet'en chief,  is that correct?  Yes.  Are there situations in which the sons a chief use the  chief's territory with the chief's permission?  Yes.  And what in Wet'suwet'en is this referred to as?  Is  there a name that we have for this?  Yes, it's Neg'edeld'es.  That's 192. And what does Neg'edeld'es mean?  It's where the chief's family or sons use his  territory.  All right.  And is this a common occurrence among  Wet'suwet'en people?  Yes.  All right.  And what is supposed to happen upon the  passing on of the chief where the sons are using the 159?  Alfred Joseph (for Plfs.)  In chief by Mr. Rush  1 chief's territory?  2 A  When the chief passes on, the -- the children that  3 have used the territories move back to their own  4 territories on the mother's side.  5 Q   Can the children of the chief who has passed on be  6 given permission to continue to use the territory?  7 A   Yes.  8 Q   All right.  Now, are there situations that you know of  9 where the children have continued to use the chief's  10 territory after the father has passed on but without  11 permission?  12 A   Yes.  13 Q   And do you know how these situations have arisen?  Do  14 you have knowledge of this, where that has occurred?  15 A   Yes, it occurs when -- when you are using the Fishing  16 and Wildlife Regulations.  17 Q   And what is it about those regulations that has  18 brought this situation into being, if you know?  19 A   That's when the Fish and Wildlife people say that the  20 territory has to go to the son, and that is against  21 the Wet'suwet'en law.  22 Q   Now, have you, Mr. Joseph, been present at which these  23 situations, where the son remains on the territory,  24 have been discussed among Wet'suwet'en chiefs and at  25 Wet'suwet'en Feasts?  26 A   Yes.  27 Q   And can you say whether or not the Wet'suwet'en chiefs  28 are addressing this issue?  29 A   Yes.  30 Q   And do you know how they are addressing it?  What are  31 they doing about this?  32 A  When there is a meeting or a Feast and the -- the sons  33 of a chief have been using the father's territory all  34 their lives and then state at a Feast that they are  35 going back to their mother's territory, and they  36 announce it at a Feast or a meeting.  37 Q   Have you been at Feasts or meetings where these  38 announcements have been made?  39 A   Yes.  40 Q   And has this occurred in the last say five years?  41 A   Yes.  42 Q   What other ways are the Wet'suwet'en chiefs addressing  43 this issue?  44 A   They -- it's always brought up at the Feasts, where  45 the -- where the Wet'suwet'en chiefs try to educate  46 the younger people that the proper way to handle the  47 ownership of a territory is to hand it down to the 1599  Alfred Joseph (for Plfs.)  In chief by Mr. Rush  1 mother's side, and that is -- the information is given  2 at the Feast or any gathering.  3 Q   And this is communicated in a public way?  4 A   Yes.  5 MR. GOLDIE:  Well, I wonder if my friend might simply ask how is  6 it communicated, because "in a public way" leaves the  7 question in a very unsatisfactory way.  8 MR. RUSH:  I'm happy to do that.  9 MR. GOLDIE:  Thank you.  10 MR. RUSH:  11 Q   Could you tell his lordship how it is communicated at  12 the Feasts and meeting that you've talked about?  13 A   In the past the -- it was always known who owned a  14 territory, and people were just told that this  15 territory belongs to this clan, but in -- ever since  16 the -- the territory were passed down from father to  17 son, it became apparent that we had to educate the  18 younger people how the system worked.  The people  19 that -- that don't understand the system are people  20 that have been out of the territory, young people that  21 have been raised in different areas and then have come  22 home and attended Feasts and found out that they were  23 using territories that didn't belong to -- I mean,  24 hadn't -- thought that it had inherited land that  25 belonged to them, but found out that it belonged to  26 another clan.  So that is why now the -- the -- the  27 elders and the chiefs are letting the younger people  28 know about the territory and about our system at a  29 Feast.  30 Q   And are these -- are the questions of ownership of  31 territory raised by the owning chiefs and described at  32 the Feasts?  33 A   Yes.  34 Q   And other meetings?  35 A  And the Feast, yes.  36 Q   Now, Mr. Joseph, are you authorized as Gisdaywa to  37 speak on behalf of your territory?  38 A   Yes.  39 Q   And you are authorized to speak at this court case for  40 Gisdaywa's territory?  41 A   Yes.  42 Q   And have you been authorized by the other chiefs of  43 your House?  44 A   Yes.  45 Q   Now, are you as authorized -- as the authorized chief,  46 are you able then to give permission to other people  47 to describe your House boundaries? 1600  Alfred Joseph (for Plfs.)  In chief by Mr. Rush  1 A   Yes.  2 Q   And have you done that?  3 A   Yes.  4 Q   And now, I'm going to ask you some questions about an  5 area dealing with the crests of the House of  6 Kaiyexweniits.  7 Q   Were you told about the territories and history by  8 your grandparents and parents and your aunts and  9 uncles?  10 A   Yes.  11 Q   And was this -- were you told about the history of  12 Gisdaywa?  13 A   Yes.  14 Q   Okay.  And was Woos -- the former holder of the name  15 Woos, did he also tell you about the history of your  16 crest and your House?  17 A   Yes.  18 Q   And, as well, your grandfather Nahloochs?  19 A   Yes.  20 Q   And can you tell me if at the Feasts your -- the  21 history of your crest and House, if these were  22 announced at Feasts that you attended?  23 A   Yes.  24 Q   Now, the crest of Gisdaywa is the bow and arrow, is  25 that right?  Or perhaps I should say that one of the  26 crests of Gisdaywa is the bow and arrow?  27 A   It's the personal crest.  28 Q   Okay.  And when you say the personal crest, what do  2 9 you mean?  30 A  A personal crest is -- is the House chief's own crest,  31 and the other members of the Kaiyexweniits all have  32 their personal crests, and those crests could be  33 changed at times, but the crest of the House or the  34 clan can't be changed.  35 Q   And the personal crest that cannot be changed is the  36 one of the bow and arrow?  37 A   No, the personal crest can be changed.  38 Q   Oh, it can be?  39 A   Yes.  40 Q   All right.  The personal crest of Gisdaywa is acted  41 out at the Feast, is that right?  42 A   Yes.  43 Q   All right.  And what is it called when that crest is  44 acted out at a Feast?  45 A   It is called Kun biit k'aayh.  46 Q   That's 255.  47 And can you tell his lordship what is done when 1601  Alfred Joseph (for Plfs.)  In chief by Mr. Rush  1 that crest is acted out?  2 A   It is -- happens at a Stone Raising Feast or a Pole  3 Raising Feast, and the House chief or, in my case,  4 Gisdaywa, I'd come into the -- into the Feast House  5 announced by three different people and -- people from  6 the father's clan, and when that is announced, I come  7 in with my crest, and that's in our language Kungax,  8 to show my Kungax.  And when I come into the Feast  9 hall, I have a robe, a bear-skin robe.  10 THE COURT:  I'm sorry, rope or robe?  11 THE WITNESS:  Robe.  A bear-skin robe.  12 THE COURT:  Thank you.  13 THE WITNESS:  Or a button blanket with a bear mask.  And I go  14 and touch with the arrow that I have, and I touch each  15 head chief in the House.  And when I touch that head  16 chief, oftentimes he'll act out his -- his Kungax at  17 the same time and in some way.  And as he does that,  18 he gives me a present, and that is taken by the guides  19 that are with me.  And I go through all the three  20 clans at the House that are in the Feast.  That's  21 called Kun biit k'aayh and showing your Kungax.  22 MR. RUSH:  23 Q   That's 255, my lord.  24 Now, why is the Kungax performed at the Feast?  25 A   That is to -- when you come and show -- after you've  26 showed your Kungax, it is announced there why it's  27 done, to display the -- your crest, to display the  28 song that has been used, sung at the time, the history  29 that -- the history of the song, when it was created  30 and by whom it was created.  And the land that -- the  31 land of Gisdaywa is also announced, any history that  32 goes along with it.  33 Q   All right.  Now, you've made mention of the term  34 Kungax, and you've heard in this court case mention of  35 the Gitksan word adaawk.  Are there differences  36 between the Wet'suwet'en Kungax and the Gitksan  37 adaawk?  38 A   Yes, there is a difference.  39 Q   Can you tell his lordship what that is?  40 A   The -- the Gitksan Kungax relates to migrations within  41 the territory.  42 THE COURT:  I'm sorry, this is —  43 MR. RUSH:  The Gitksan Kungax he referred to.  44 THE COURT:  I thought that's what —  4 5 MR. RUSH:  46 Q   By that do you mean the Gitksan adaawk?  47 A   Yes. 1602  Alfred Joseph (for Plfs.)  In chief by Mr. Rush  1 THE COURT:  All right.  Thank you.  2 THE WITNESS:  And our Kungax is more -- more around the -- it's  3 not migrations; it's just -- it tells about happening  4 in the -- within the territory, how clans and crests  5 were created, and how people defended their territory  6 and their people.  7 Q   Can you give an example of an event within the  8 Wet'suwet'en territory that gave rise to Wet'suwet'en  9 crests that is in the Kungax?  10 A   There is one that was Kweese, the defence of  11 his people was one of them.  12 MR. GOLDIE:  Excuse my, my lord.  I missed that word.  Is the  13 example going to be of the crest of Gisdaywa or was  14 there —  15 MR. RUSH:  16 Q   No, no.  This is giving of one example of where a  17 crest was created as a result of an occurrence within  18 the territory of the Wet'suwet'en people, and the  19 answer that he gave was in respect of Kweese, which is  20 on the Plaintiff's list, number 38.  21 And you have knowledge of this, do you?  22 A   Yes.  23 MR. GOLDIE:  Excuse me.  That's my concern, my lord.  Can my  24 friend establish how this witness has knowledge of a  25 happening that doesn't relate to his House?  26 THE COURT:  Oh, I think it does relate to his House, does it  27 not?  28 MR. GOLDIE:  I didn't understand that, my lord.  That was the  29 point of my question.  3 0 MR. RUSH:  31 Q   How do you know about the Kungax of Kweese?  32 A   It's -- that history of the raid or the war party that  33 Kweese formed was by all clans, and that is where all  34 the different clans got most of their crests because  35 it involved every -- every clan.  So when Kweese went  36 on this raid, he, as a reward, gave each clan a crest  37 for their participation.  38 Q   Who is the present holder of the Kweese?  39 A   Florence Hall.  40 Q   And have you heard the telling of this history?  41 A   Yes.  42 Q   And where -- where have you heard the telling of this?  43 A   It's been told at every gathering of the Wet'suwet'en  44 by elders.  I've heard that ever since -- I came out  45 of residential school was the first -- was the time I  46 heard it for the second or third time.  I heard it  47 when I was a child, but I wasn't too clear on it.  But 1603  Alfred Joseph (for Plfs.)  In chief by Mr. Rush  1 I've heard it from different people and other persons  2 like Johnny David, Kanoots.  Peter Alfred have told  3 it.  4 Q   The performance of the Kungax of Gisdaywa that you've  5 described, the -- is the history of the performance of  6 that crest told at a Feast after or before the  7 performance occurs or indeed during the performance?  8 A   It happens after.  9 Q   Okay.  And does the telling of the history sometimes  10 occur in the course of a song?  11 A   Yes.  12 Q   Now, in terms of the personal crest of the bow and  13 arrow that you have referred to, can you tell the  14 court what is the -- the history that goes with the  15 performance of the Kungax that you have referred to?  16 A   The -- the arrow you're talking about?  17 Q   Yes.  18 A   Yes.  19 Q   Yes, the arrow crest.  20 A   It's -- it's about a village where the -- the -- the  21 whole population is wiped out by some -- by enemies  22 that came in to raid the -- the territory, and there's  23 only one girl that is spared or -- or she must have  24 hid from them, and she's the only one that's left in  25 the village.  And when she came out of hiding or back  26 to the village, she was -- started to cry, and her --  27 her teardrops turned into human eyes.  And she picked  28 up these human eyes and rubbed it on her bosom and out  29 of that she became pregnant and had a boy.  So she  30 repeated the process and another boy was born.  And  31 the third time she done that she had a girl, and the  32 girl turned out to be lame.  And when the lame girl  33 grew up, she became very smart.  34 And then they -- they had a visit -- visitor, and  35 the visitor came and gave them presents.  He gave them  36 a small box, and in the small box was two arrows, and  37 he gave one of those arrows to the -- one of the boys,  38 and the other boy he gave another arrow.  And when  39 the -- and the other present to the girl was a shovel.  40 And the man told them that they were his children,  41 and he said that whenever there was any problems or --  42 you can destroy anything with this arrow.  So they  43 hit -- and you have to -- when you hit this --  44 whatever you hit, you have to say that it has to  45 burst.  So they hit the mountain with it, and the  46 mountain -- they said let the mountain burst, so the  47 mountain burst. 1604  Alfred Joseph (for Plfs.)  In chief by Mr. Rush  1 So that -- it's the same thing with the girl.  The  2 girl's present was that -- when she got that shovel,  3 the promise was made to the girl that all the girls,  4 lame girls that were born would be smart.  5 And then the man built them a house, and that is  6 how the -- the -- the two boys and the arrow protected  7 the -- the -- the people as the village grew.  They  8 protected them from all the enemies by using this  9 arrow that the man gave them.  So that is the -- the  10 history of the arrow of Gisdaywa.  11 Q   And the village that you've made mention of, do you  12 know the -- do you know that village?  13 A   There is only one village that our people talk about,  14 and that's Dizkle.  15 Q   That's 273.  16 Where -- do you know where -- well, first of all I  17 should ask you is -- Dizkle, is that a present village  18 of the Wet'suwet'en?  19 A   There is a village site.  20 Q   And where -- where is that?  21 A   That's around Mosquito Flats, which is --  22 Q   Could you maybe just describe it in relation to  23 Moricetown and Hagwilget?  24 A   It's between Moricetown and Hagwilget, and there's a  25 ranch there called Rainbow Ranch.  26 Q   And are there Wet'suwet'en people living at that place  27 today?  2 8 A   No.  29 Q   Are you able to say how old the village of Dizkle is?  30 A   It is -- when our people describe Dizkle, it is --  31 they say it was here when they -- on earth -- as old  32 as this earth is the way they describe it.  33 Q   Now, I think in answer to a question of mine you said  34 that sometimes the histories were told in the form of  35 a song, is that correct?  36 A   Yes.  37 Q   And a song in Wet'suwet'en is Kun, is that right?  38 A   Kun, yes.  39 Q   That's K-u-n, my lord.  40 And can you just say to the court, Mr. Joseph, why  41 the song is important, apart from the -- obviously  42 because it tells a history?  But is there some other  43 reason a song to Wet'suwet'en people is important?  44 A  Well, a song is important because it is -- it tells of  45 the different events like -- and it tells of your  46 Kungax, and it is also used spiritually.  And when  47 medicine men use a song, they always -- a name of a 1605  Alfred Joseph (for Plfs.)  In chief by Mr. Rush  1 small place is always added to it.  2 Q   So —  3 A   Every -- no matter what clan they are, they -- they  4 always have this one name of one area that's included  5 in the -- in medicine man song, and that -- it's a  6 small hill on the north shore of Ootsa Lake.  And when  7 they sing that song, I've been told by elders that the  8 name Ts'uu t'ai is always included in the -- in the  9 medicine man's song.  10 Q   Ts'uu t'ai?  11 A   Ts'uu t'ai, yes.  12 MR. RUSH:  I don't think that's a word we have, Mr. Mitchell.  13 Could you help us with that, please?  14 THE TRANSLATOR:  T-s-'-u-u t-'-a-i.  15 MR. RUSH:  Thank you.  16 THE COURT:  Is that the same name as the lake?  17 THE WITNESS:  No, it's a hill on the north shore —  18 THE COURT:  A hill on the north shore?  19 THE WITNESS:  Yes.  2 0 THE COURT:  Of?  21 THE WITNESS:  Ootsa Lake.  22 THE COURT:  What is the name of the lake?  23 THE WITNESS:  Ootsa Lake.  24 MR. RUSH:  Ootsa, O-o-t-s-a?  25 THE COURT:  Yes.  All right.  26 THE WITNESS:  And it also — they have different songs, like  27 songs of -- for the medicine man, like I said, and the  28 songs -- personal songs, and House -- the songs of the  29 House, and the song of the clan, so it's always for  30 different things.  Then there is a song of the earth,  31 and that is sung by people at certain times of the  32 year, mostly in the springtime.  And when people sing  33 that song, it's to remind them and others of the past.  34 They sort of relive their youth by singing that song.  35 And most -- oftentimes when a person does sing that  36 song, it is maybe the last time they sang it.  No one  37 knows it, but it seem to be that after they sing that  38 song, it's -- they -- they pass on.  And sometimes the  39 person can -- doesn't have to be really old.  But I've  40 seen -- seen the song done by an elder, who was  41 crippled, and she used to be a strong lady, and she  42 worked, she trapped, she done everything, but in her  43 later years became crippled and she couldn't do  44 anything, so she sang one of these songs.  And I  45 remember this very well.  That's the song of the  46 earth.  47 Q   The song of the earth? 1606  Alfred Joseph (for Plfs.)  In chief by Mr. Rush  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  MR.  THE  MR.  MR.  MR.  MR.  THE  MR.  THE  MR.  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  Q  A  RUSH:  Yes.  Is there also a mourning song?  Well, it's sort of a mourning, yes.  All right.  Is there a song that is -- that is sung as  a song that's used to invite people to a Funeral Feast  or a Headstone Feast?  Yes.  And is that -- is that song called a San eel?  San eel, yes.  And is that a song which is like a dirge or a mourning  song  Yes.  9  It's also used for making peace.  It is used for making peace as well?  Yes.  All right.  COURT:  I didn't get the spelling of that word.  RUSH:  No.  We have it, my lord.  I think it was given to us  earlier.  GOLDIE:  275.  RUSH:  I'm sorry, 175?  GOLDIE:  275.  COURT:  It looks like it.  RUSH:  Yes.  Thank you.  That's it.  COURT:  Thank you.  RUSH:  Q   Mr. Joseph, I understand that the San eel is sung when  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  people are invited to a Feast and that at the same  time a rattle is used at the invitation point?  A   Yes.  Q   Am I right about that?  And is the same song sung again at the Feast to  which the people have been invited?  A   Yes.  Q   Are there some songs which are older than other songs  that you know to be ancient songs and some that are  newer songs?  A   Yes.  Q   And is there a way of telling in the words that are  used whether the song is old or new?  A   Yes.  Q   All right.  Are songs created -- are songs created  more recently, for example?  A   Yes.  Q   And what's -- what would be a -- without giving an  example necessarily, what would be a situation where a  song would be created, let us say, in the last five 1607  Alfred Joseph (for Plfs.)  In chief by Mr. Rush  1 years?  2 A   There is a song created for it to be the same as a  3 pole raising or a stone raising to mark the occasion  4 and for the chief to get their own songs.  5 Q   Is it then right to say that a song will be used to  6 commemorate a particular occasion?  7 A   Yes.  8 Q   And are these songs created today and used this way?  9 A   Yes.  10 Q   Are there occasions when other Wet'suwet'en people are  11 hired to sing the songs?  12 A   Yes.  13 Q   Are there -- are there particular people who among the  14 Wet'suwet'en are singers?  15 A   Yes.  16 Q   Okay.  And Sylvester George in your House, is he one  17 such person?  18 A   Yes.  He used to do most of the singing, but, like  19 I've said before, his health isn't very good today.  20 Q   Now, I -- if you will, I'd like you to make another  21 comparison or contrast for me, Mr. Joseph.  You  22 mentioned the performance of the Kungax, and I think  23 you called it Kun biit k'aayh, and I wonder if you can  24 say whether this performance is similar to or  25 different from the Gitksan Nox Nox?  26 A   It is similar to it.  27 Q   Okay.  And does it -- does -- you've been to Gitksan  28 Feasts, have you?  29 A   Yes.  30 Q   Have you been to many of them?  31 A   Yes.  32 Q   And you've seen Nox Nox performed?  33 A   Yes.  34 Q   The way in which the performance is acted out at a  35 Wet'suwet'en Feast, does it serve a similar function  36 in a Wet'suwet'en Feast as a Nox Nox, as a Gitksan  37 Feast?  38 A   Yes.  39 Q   I want to ask you now about a different subject, but a  40 related subject.  And I made mention to you earlier  41 about the poles of Gisdaywa, and I'm going to show you  42 a photograph of the poles again and just ask you if  43 you'd tell us what the crests are on those poles.  If  44 you'll look, Mr. Joseph, at tab 5 of Exhibit 62,  45 taking the photograph there, you've identified this  46 photograph for us and the poles in it.  I want to  47 direct your attention to the pole on the right.  The 160?  Alfred Joseph (for Plfs.)  In chief by Mr. Rush  1  2  3  A  4  Q  5  6  A  7  Q  8  9  A  10  11  12  13  Q  14  A  15  Q  16  17  18  A  19  THE  TRANS  20  MR.  RUSH:  21  THE  COURT  22  23  MR.  RUSH:  24  THE  COURT  25  MR.  RUSH:  26  Q  27  28  A  29  Q  30  A  31  Q  32  33  A  34  35  36  37  Q  38  39  A  40  Q  41  42  A  43  Q  44  A  45  46  Q  47  A  Is there some  -- involves the  crest figure at the top of the pole is the crest of  the bow and arrow, is that right?  Yes.  And which direction is the figure facing and the arrow  pointing?  East.  Okay.  And do you know why that is?  significance in that?  That was -- the song of Gisdaywa is  people of the east, and the -- it talks about people  of the east, and that is something that happened  between Wet'suwet'en and the people of Naskoteen.  Naskoteen?  Yes.  I think that is spelt -- if I spell this, Mr. Joseph,  will you tell me if I'm right?  Is it  N-a-s-k-o-t-e-e-n?  Yes.  LATOR:  190.  It's 190.  Thank you, Mr. Mitchell.  Thank you.  :  Do you want to finish the question about the pole  before we adjourn, Mr. Rush?  Yes.  I'd like to.  :  Thank you.  Now, Mr. Joseph, the next two figures on the pole,  what are they?  The two top ones are the bear cubs.  And are these crests of the Gitdumden Clan?  Yes.  And they appear to be climbing or shimmying up the  pole?  Yes.  There -- there again, the different chiefs of  the Gitdumden Clan put up a Feast, and they have two  cubs that are always around climbing the trees  somewhere.  Okay.  Now, the next crest I think you've identified  as the black bear crest?  Yes.  And you've told us about that crest already with  reference to Gisdaywa's territory?  Yes.  Can you tell us what the figure is on the bottom?  The figure on the bottom is the -- the -- that names  the pole.  It's --  It names the pole?  Yes. 1609  Alfred Joseph (for Plfs.)  In chief by Mr. Rush  1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  Q   And what is that figure?  A   That's the man that -- with a pack.  Q   And do they name the pole the pack pole or the pack  man pole?  A   Yes, yes.  Q   And what is the -- is the pack man to be packing?  What does he pack?  A   It's -- you can't see the burl that's sitting inside  the fence.  Q   A burl?  A   Yes, a burl.  And in the original pole at Hagwilget  there was a burl on the ground beside the pole, and it  was carved thin.  And whenever the Gitdumden Clan put  on a Feast, they put that burl on the back of this man  as he's packing, and when the Feast was over, they  took the pack off him.  And the name of the pole is  Esghel.  Esghel.  18 MR. RUSH:  I think that's — maybe Mr. Mitchell can help us with  19 that.  20 THE INTERPRETER:  297.  21 MR. RUSH:  297  22 THE COURT:  I'm sorry, I wasn't sure what you said the pack was  23 on.  Did you say bird?  24 THE WITNESS:  A burl.  2 5 MR. RUSH:  26 Q   A burl?  27 A  A carved burl.  28 THE COURT:  Oh, okay.  I wasn't sure.  2 9 MR. RUSH:  30 Q   Is that a Wet'suwet'en word?  31 A   No.  32 THE COURT:  We all know what a burl is, don't we?  33 MR. RUSH:  34 Q   Mr. Joseph, is the pack man made mention of in a song  35 that is a song of the Gitdumden?  36 A   No.  37 Q   Okay.  Is it -- it is made mention of in the history?  38 A   Yes.  39 Q   All right.  You say that the burl is not visible to  40 our eye in this photograph?  41 A   Yeah, it's inside the fence.  42 Q   But you have seen it inside the fence, have you?  43 A   Yes, yes.  44 Q   All right.  Mr. Joseph, I want to point out another  45 photograph to you, photograph number 7, tabulation 7.  46 If you'd just look at this for me, please.  This is a  47 photograph of another totem pole.  Do you recognize 1610  Alfred Joseph (for Plfs.)  In chief by Mr. Rush  1  2  A  3  Q  4  A  5  6  7  Q  8  9  10  A  11  Q  12  13  14  A  15  Q  16  17  A  18  Q  19  20  21  A  22  23  Q  24  A  25  26  THE COURT  27  28  MR. RUSH:  29  Q  30  31  32  33  34  A  35  Q  36  A  37  Q  38  39  40  A  41  Q  42  A  43  Q  44  A  45  46  Q  47  this?  Yes.  What is this pole?  It is the -- the Kaiyexweniits totem pole again,  except that it has -- the man with a pack is there,  but the two top figures are -- are ravens.  Right.  Just before I ask you specifically about the  crests, have you seen this pole standing in the  location that's shown in the photograph?  Yes.  And where -- can you describe the location?  In a  moment I'm going to show you a photograph of it, but  can you describe the location for us?  It is at Hagwilget Canyon.  All right.  Is it below the present village of  Hagwilget?  Yes.  And can you say when it was that you saw this pole  standing in this location such as it's depicted in the  photograph?  I -- it was standing -- still standing when I -- when  I left for residential school in 1938.  And you indicate -- whose pole was this?  That was the House of Kaiyexweniits, and this pole was  Unloh''s pole, who was House of Kaiyexweniits?  :  Are we talking about the one in the left centre or  the one in the extreme right or both?  The one that's left centre, virtually.  Yes, we're  only talking of that.  Kaiyexweniits is 114, my lord,  and Unloh' is 101 on the list.  The figure at the bottom of the pole, Mr. Joseph,  do you recognize that?  Yes.  And is that the figure of the pack man?  Yes.  All right.  And was there a similar burl that related  to the pole, this pole, as the one that related to the  pole that you've shown us in the previous photograph?  Yes.  Where was that located?  This -- I didn't see that one.  But --  You never saw that?  No, I never saw the burl, but my grandmother said that  it was supposed to be there but was burnt.  Okay.  And the -- the figure at the top above the  figure of the pack man is what? 1611  Alfred Joseph (for Plfs.)  In chief by Mr. Rush  1 A   Ravens, two ravens.  2 Q   Okay.  And do you know what those two ravens relate  3 to?  4 A   I wasn't told of it, but my great grandmother's name  5 was the Raven.  6 Q   Do you know her Wet'suwet'en chief's name?  7 A  All -- all that I know is that Deetsan.  8 Q   Deetsan?  9 A   Deetsan.  10 Q   Yes, that's 102.  11 Mr. Joseph, is this pole located or shown located  12 in this photograph, is that standing today?  13 A   No.  14 Q   And has this -- has -- this pole fell, I take it, and  15 has -- what happened to it?  16 A   It -- this was moved back up on top of the hill, and  17 it fell over again, and -- and there was a rain that  18 washed out just around where the log was laying, and  19 the rain washed out a big ditch, and someone come  20 along and just pushed the pole into this ditch that  21 was washed, and it laid in there until the Public  22 Works come along and widened the road and covered it  23 up.  So it's buried somewhere, parts of, in Hagwilget  24 Village.  25 Q   Now, I want to show you another photograph, if I may,  26 which is at tab 6 of Exhibit 62, and I would ask you  27 if you can identify what's in the photograph?  There  28 we are.  Do you recognize the scene that's in this  29 photograph --  30 A   Yes.  31 Q   — Mr. Joseph?  32 And what -- where is this?  33 A   It's at -- where the totem poles were standing at  34 Hagwilget Canyon.  35 Q   Is this including the pole that you've just made  36 reference to?  37 A   Yes.  38 Q   The one in tab 7.  Now, is the pole that you've  39 identified as Unloh', that's 101, that pole, is it  40 shown in this photograph?  41 A   It's shown, but it's right in line with another pole.  42 It would seem to be -- it looks like it's part of  43 another pole, but it's right in line with the Biiwenii  44 pole, which is the furthest down the river.  45 Q   How many poles are shown, to your eye, in this  46 photograph?  47 A   There was four totem poles. 1612  Alfred Joseph (for Plfs.)  In chief by Mr. Rush  1  Q  2  3  4  A  5  Q  6  7  A  8  Q  9  10  A  11  Q  12  13  A  14  Q  15  A  16  Q  17  18  A  19  20  MR.  RUSH:  21  22  THE  COURT  23  24  MR.  RUSH:  25  26  THE  COURT  27  MR.  RUSH:  28  THE  COURT  29  MR.  RUSH:  30  THE  COURT  31  MR.  RUSH:  32  Q  33  34  35  A  36  37  Q  38  A  39  40  Q  41  42  43  A  44  Q  45  46  A  47  All right.  Let me take you from left to right, if I  may.  The one that's on the sort of centre left you  see in a darker shade of black?  Yes.  And then there is one to the right of that, which  appears closer to the foreground?  Yes.  And then there is one that appears slightly to the  left of the one that's just been identified?  Yes.  And then is there a further pole at the back which  appears to be in line with the one --  Yes.  -- that's to the right?  Yes.  Now, the pole that you've identified as being the pole  of Kaiyexweniits is which of those poles?  It's the one to the right of the -- it's -- it's right  in line with the -- the last pole.  All right.  Would you take my red pen and just put an  X at the base of the pole?  :  It marks the base of the pole of 101 or the base of  the pole which covers it or both?  It's the base of the pole that the witness has  identified in tabulation 7.  :  All right.  Thank you.  :  May I see it, please?  Yes.  :  Yes.  Thank you.  Mr. Joseph, what is depicted in this photograph, have  you seen the dwellings or the structures together with  the poles as is shown in this photograph?  I just remember two, two buildings there.  The rest  weren't -- I didn't see the rest.  Which two did you -- did you see?  The one that's right at the back of the Kaiyexweniits  pole.  There are two -- two structures in virtually the  centre foreground of the photograph.  Are those the  two buildings that you saw?  Yes.  Does one of those buildings belong to the House of  Kaiyexweniits?  The one that's at the back of the -- the Kaiyexweniits  pole. 1613  Alfred Joseph (for Plfs.)  In chief by Mr. Rush  1  Q  2  3  4  5  6  A  7  MR.  RUSH:  8  9  THE  COURT  10  MR.  RUSH:  11  Q  12  13  14  15  A  16  Q  17  18  19  A  20  Q  21  22  A  23  Q  24  A  25  Q  26  A  27  Q  28  29  A  30  Q  31  A  32  Q  33  34  35  A  36  Q  37  38  39  40  A  41  42  Q  43  A  44  MR.  RUSH:  45  46  THE  COURT  47  MR.  RUSH:  Okay.  One of the buildings, the one, let us say, to  the fore and the right, appears to have more roofing  on it than the other one, which is closer to the  foreground and to the left.  Is that the building that  you refer to as Kaiyexweniits?  Yes.  All right.  I'm just going to ask you to put a K on  that, if you don't mind.  :  On the roof.  Yes, on the roof.  Thank you.  Mr. Joseph, am I  correct from what you've said to us that the  structures back against the cliff in the photograph  were not there when you observed this point, this --  No.  All right.  And there appear to be structures up in  the top left-hand corner at the top of a cliff on the  opposite side of a river there?  Yes.  And what -- did you see those structures there when  you observed this scene?  There was one there that I remember.  All right.  And do you know whose structure that was?  The person that used it was Frank Clarke.  Okay.  And the river that is -- is this the Bulkley?  Yes.  The water that's flowing through the two sides of the  cliff here, is that known as the Hagwilget Canyon?  Yes.  And do you know a Gitksan chief by the name of Spookw?  Yes.  Do you -- to your knowledge, did Spookw have a  dwelling on the cliff on the opposite side of  Hagwilget?  Yes.  That's 61 on the Plaintiff's list, my lord.  And to your knowledge, was the Gitksan Chief  Spookw, was he related to members of the House of  Kaiyexweniits?  My grandmother always referred to him as -- as her  uncle.  Do you know of any other relationship apart from that?  No.  All right.  My lord, I've gone a little bit farther.  It might be convenient to --  :  Yes.  All right.  -- adjourn. 1614  Alfred Joseph (for Plfs.)  In chief by Mr. Rush  1 THE COURT:  We'll adjourn.  I think now we'll adjourn until two  2 o'clock.  3 THE REGISTRAR:  Order in court.  4  5 (PROCEEDINGS ADJOURNED PURSUANT TO THE LUNCHEON  6 ADJOURNMENT)  7  8 I hereby certify the foregoing to be  9 a true and accurate transcript of the  10 proceedings herein to the best of my  11 skill and ability.  12  13  14  15 Leanna Lynn  16 Official Reporter  17 United Reporting Service Ltd.  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  4 7 (PROCEEDINGS RESUMED PURSUANT TO LUNCHEON ADJOURNMENT) 1615  Albert Joseph (for Plfs.)  In Chief by Mr. Rush  1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  ALBERT JOSEPH, resumed:  THE REGISTRAR:  Witness, I remind you you are still under oath.  THE COURT:  Mr. Rush.  EXAMINATION IN CHIEF BY MR. RUSH, Continued:  Q   Mr. Joseph, you have a blanket of your own?  A   Yes.  Q   And there is a crest on your blanket?  A   Yes.  Q   And what's -- what is that crest?  A   Bear.  Q   A bear?  A   Yes.  Q   I have been referring you to a number of poles of the  House of Kaiyexweniits.  Did you see the pole of your  Uncle Thomas George raised?  A   Yes.  Q   Do you remember about what year that was?  A  About 1969, I believe.  Q   All right.  And have you seen other poles raised,  other Wet'suwet'en poles raised?  A   I've seen Donald Grady pole raised at Hagwilget.  Q   What year was that?  A   1944.  Q   Okay.  THE COURT:  1944?  A   Yes.  THE COURT:  Thank you.  MR. RUSH:  And have you seen other poles raised?  I have seen David Dennis Sats'aan raise a pole.  His name was Sats'aan?  Yes.  195, my lord.  And do you remember -- if I showed you a photograph,  would you know the pole?  Yes.  Okay.  Just let me -- I am sorry.  Take this book.  What House was or clan was David Dennis in?  He was Gilseyhu.  Q  A  Q  A  MR. RUSH  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  And do you remember the year in which that pole was  raised?  1948.  And did you attend that pole raising?  Yes. 1616  Albert Joseph (for Plfs.)  In Chief by Mr. Rush  1 Q   And did you attend that with your uncle?  Do you know  2 if your Uncle Thomas George was also at that pole  3 raising?  4 A   Yes.  5 Q   He was?  6 A   Yes.  7 Q   All right.  Now, can there been a pole raised today  8 among the Wet'suwet'en?  9 A   Yes.  10 Q   And what would be the circumstances in which a pole  11 would be raised?  12 A   It would be to commemorate a pole to past House chief  13 or another chief in the same House like your  14 grandmother.  15 Q   All right.  And did you participate this year in  16 witnessing a first cut of a pole?  17 A   Yes.  18 Q   Whose pole was that, do you recall?  19 A   It was Hanamuxw.  20 Q   Okay.  And were you there as a witness?  21 A   Yes.  22 Q   And I think you said you attend Gitksan Feasts?  23 A   Yes.  24 Q   Hanamuxw is 33, yes.  All right.  Mr. Joseph, I am  25 going to ask you some questions about another area of  26 your knowledge and that pertains to your responsi-  27 bilities as a chief.  And earlier you told us, that is  28 last Thursday you told us something about your respon-  29 sibilities as a House chief, and I want to ask you  30 specifically at a Feast what your responsibilities are  31 in respect of, first, your father's side?  32 A   The father's clan are always the main participants in  33 the House chief's Feast or the House chief's family.  34 So you have to be -- make sure that if it's in your --  35 the chief's own Feast, that his father's clan are --  36 are the people that are hired to do certain tasks.  37 Q   Does the father's side have a name in Wet'suwet'en?  38 A   Yes.  39 Q   And what is that?  40 A   It would be -- by chief would be either Haba ts'el  41 tset or Haba ts'el tset.  42 Q   That's 198, my lord.  Say it again for me, Haba ts'el  43 tset?  44 A   Haba ts'el tset.  45 Q   Haba ts'el tset?  46 A   Yes.  47 Q   And are there responsibilities of the chief to the 1617  Albert Joseph (for Plfs.)  In Chief by Mr. Rush  1 mother's side?  We have talked about the father's  2 side.  Are there responsibilities for the mother's  3 side?  4 A   The responsibility on the mother's side would be on  5 the -- your uncles who are we say -- on our mother's  6 uncle we say we say Be ze yuu.  7 Q   Be ze yuu?  8 A   Yes.  9 Q   Is that the description of the mother's side?  10 A   Yes.  11 Q   I think that's 199.  And what do you have to do to  12 ensure that those responsibilities are carried out?  13 A   You have to remind the younger generation, like  14 usually it is done by like the grandparents, but today  15 you have to -- you have to do -- see that the job is  16 done right and it is -- seem to be -- you have to be  17 more alert today than in the past, because the younger  18 people today don't -- are not lectured as much as in  19 the past.  There is too many distractions for the  20 young people today.  So they have to be taught by  21 example at a Feast.  22 Q   Do you do that?  23 A   Yes.  24 Q   And I take it there are proper ways of doing things  25 and there are improper ways?  26 A   Yes.  27 Q   And do you point out the proper ways of doing things?  28 A   Yes.  29 Q   All right.  Now, can you tell -- tell us, Mr. Joseph,  30 why it is important to follow the right ways of doing  31 things at the Feast?  32 A   Because you may cause embarrassment to a chief or to  33 yourself, and if you do make -- someone makes a  34 mistake, you are dealt with right at the Feast by the  35 guests.  36 Q   Now, are there -- are there steps that you take with  37 regard to the contributions that are made at a Feast?  38 A   Yes.  39 Q   Do you do certain things to make sure that the proper  40 contributions are made?  41 A   Yes.  42 Q   What do you do?  43 A   You make sure that of the people that have work are  44 dealt with first and the -- not only the House chief  45 is watching, all the aunts and the grand -- the  46 mothers all keep -- watch the younger people when they  47 are serving.  And those young people can't rush.  They 1618  Albert Joseph (for Plfs.)  In Chief by Mr. Rush  1  2  3  Q  4  5  A  6  Q  7  8  A  9  Q  10  11  A  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  Q  24  25  A  26  Q  27  A  28  29  30  31  32  33  Q  34  35  THE TRAN  36  MR. RUSH  37  Q  38  39  A  40  Q  41  42  A  43  44  45  Q  46  47  A  have to be careful that they look at the person that  they are serving, so that they don't miss.  Is this where your House and clan are hosting the  Feast?  Yes.  And so you make sure that the people that are the  guests are properly treated at the Feast?  Yes.  Is that -- and what is the consequence if, for  example, someone is missed at a Feast?  When you miss a person at a Feast, that person right  away will tell their chief that they have been passed  over by someone.  Maybe that person was distracted for  a minute and just didn't give this person anything and  then pass over him and served the next person.  So  when that happens, this person would notify an elder  and that is when the guests of that clan have a  collection.  And when that collection is finished,  they announce to the host and to the witnesses at the  House what happened.  So they are -- so the person  that was missed has wiped out the shame of being  passed by.  Does this -- does this occurrence in a Feast have  anything to do with the respect or the law of respect?  Yes.  Can you tell us how?  The law of respect we are always told is a word that  Wet'suwet'en use and that you have to accept anything  that is given to you any -- at any place, even if it's  a private visit, you have to accept anything that is  given to you and that -- the word they use for that is  Wa gghus k'tsel eh.  Now, this word, my lord, is not on your list, and Mr.  Mitchell, I think, will help us with that?  LATOR: W-a g-g-h-u-s  k-'-t-s-e-l e-h, underlined.  Now, is that the Wet'suwet'en word to accept an  offered gift?  Yes.  And why is it important to accept that gift among the  Wet'suwet'en?  Because they don't want to hurt another person's  feelings, so they have to accept anything that's given  to them.  Okay.  At a Feast, is a gift offered as payment for  anything?  Sometimes it is just -- it is a payment and at times 1619  Albert Joseph (for Plfs.)  In Chief by Mr. Rush  1 it would be a gift from the chief.  2 Q   At a Feast when it's offered as a payment, what is it  3 payment for?  4 A   It is for any -- any services that's done by a clan,  5 but there is an exception where you can't do that  6 within your own clan.  7 Q   Okay.  Now, I understand that the House of  8 Kaiyexweniits would support other Gitdumden Houses by  9 helping to make contributions at their Feasts, is that  10 right?  11 A   Yes.  12 Q   So Kaiyexweniits would if Woos, the chief of Cassyex,  13 were to hold a Feast, your House and your chiefs would  14 help with contributions?  15 A   Yes.  16 Q   And would that be contributions of money and of food  17 and of material?  18 A   Yes.  19 Q   Now, we've heard mention of a word in Gitksan which is  20 called, I believe, Hawal.  Is the same word used among  21 the Wet'suwet'en?  22 A   Yes.  23 Q   That's -- I believe it's -- well, my spelling is  24 H-a-w-a-1.  Now, at a Feast such as this where another  25 Gitdumden House is sponsoring or hosting the Feast, do  26 members of your House also assist in the distributions  27 which occur at the Feast?  28 A   Yes.  29 Q   Okay.  And those distributions are to the other  30 witnessing chiefs, is that correct?  31 A   Yes.  32 Q   Okay.  Now, I understand that there are occasions in  33 which members of your House also have to help other  34 members of the father's side at a Feast?  35 A   Yes.  36 Q   And this is called in -- I'll explain the terms -- or  37 maybe you should explain the terms, Haircut and  38 Andumenuk, is that right?  39 A   Yes.  40 Q   Okay.  Now, we've heard in the case some explanation  41 of the term Haircut and Andumenuk, and is it -- does  42 the Wet'suwet'en use the words in the same way as the  43 Gitksan do in relation to their participation at a  44 Feast?  45 A   Yes.  46 Q   Now, in Wet'suwet'en, in the language, is there a word  47 for contribution, the contribution that is made, for A  Yes.  Q  Now, what's  A  Ah y'eah.  Q  Pardon me?  A  Ah y'eah.  Q  Ah y'eah?  A  Yes.  Q  That's 201.  1620  Albert Joseph (for Plfs.)  In Chief by Mr. Rush  1 example, during a Haircut contribution?  2  3 Q   Now, what's that?  4  5  6  7  8  9 Q   That's 201.  Now, in respect of these contributions,  10 Mr. Joseph, what do you do, what role do you play as  11 the chief regarding the Haircut and the Andumenuk?  12 A   They are kept -- they go into the main pot, but they  13 are announced why the contribution is made.  14 Q   And do you ensure that that announcement occurs?  15 A   Yes.  16 Q   Now, do you have any other responsibilities that you  17 discharge at the Wet'suwet'en Feast that you haven't  18 mentioned already?  19 A   You have to make sure that the guests are seated in  20 their proper place, proper clans.  And there is a  21 stranger that comes in that you have never seen  22 before, you have to ask him to identify his name and  23 his clan.  And if he's of your clan, you just let him  24 know that it's -- he's welcome there as a brother.  25 And if he's from the -- another clan, he is also  26 seated with the other clans, and he is or she's also  27 accepted by that clan as a relative.  28 Q   And you play a part in ensuring the seating occurs  29 properly?  30 A   Yes.  Yes.  31 Q   All right.  You made mention of your responsibility at  32 a Feast to be sure that no one is overlooked, and I  33 understand that there is a Wet'suwet'en term if  34 someone is overlooked at a Feast?  35 A   Yes.  36 Q   And do you recall what that is?  37 A   Tuts hah teez nik.  38 Q   That's 205, my lord.  And you also indicated a moment  39 ago that there was a collection that occurred if  40 indeed someone was overlooked as a way of wiping out  41 the shame or restoring the respect to the person  42 overlooked?  43 A   Yes.  44 Q   And is there a term in Wet'suwet'en for that in terms  45 of an apology to that person?  46 A   It's K'aa nee yat'lii.  47 Q   Again.  Please? 1621  Albert Joseph (for Plfs.)  In Chief by Mr. Rush  1  A  2  Q  3  4  THE  COURT  5  6  MR.  RUSH:  7  THE  COURT  8  9  MR.  RUSH:  10  11  THE  TRANS  12  MR.  RUSH:  13  Q  14  15  16  17  18  19  A  20  Q  21  A  22  Q  23  24  A  25  26  Q  27  28  29  30  A  31  Q  32  A  33  MR.  RUSH:  34  35  THE  TRANS  36  MR.  RUSH:  37  Q  38  A  39  Q  40  41  42  43  44  45  A  46  Q  47  K'aa nee yat'lii.  Okay.  Is there a term used in Wet'suwet'en for  restoring the respect of a chief.  :  I am sorry, Mr. Rush, but I doubt if the reporter  got the first word.  No.  :  If we don't get it now, it's going to be hard to  find.  Mr. Mitchell, maybe you could just help us with  that, please?  jATOR:  K-'-a-a n-e-e y-a-t-'-1-i-i.  Thank you.  Now, what I was asking again, Mr. Joseph, if you  can -- if you know if there is a term used in  Wet'suwet'en whereby the respect of a chief is  restored as a result of the collection that is made in  a situation where that chief has been missed at a  Feast?  It's just the same.  Is that term?  Yes.  Okay.  Fine.  And do you know of examples where that  has happened in recent feasts of the Wet'suwet'en?  Not recently.  I have seen it happen with my aunt,  Mrs. Mary George around 1969, I believe.  All right.  Now, when transactions are witnessed at a  Feast which take place in the presence of those guests  at a Feast, is there a term used in Wet'suwet'en for  public witnessing?  Yes.  And what's that?  Denii Biits.  And that's a word that's not on the list, my lord,  and I think maybe Mr. Mitchell can help us with that.  jATOR:  D-e-n-i-i B-i-i-t-s.  And what literally does that mean, Mr. Joseph?  It means the presence or in the midst of an assembly.  All right.  I am going to ask you about choosing a  chief.  And I take it there are certain considerations  that are looked at when a chief or a successor to a  chief's name is chosen.  All right.  And I understand  that one of the considerations is how a person carries  himself or herself?  Yes.  And how a person might conduct themselves in public,  is that correct? 1622  Albert Joseph (for Plfs.)  In Chief by Mr. Rush  1 A   Yes.  2 Q   All right.  And I understand that also the choice of a  3 chief depends on whether or not that person is a good  4 worker?  5 A   Yes.  That's —.  6 Q   Okay.  And what is meant among the Wet'suwet'en people  7 when you look at determining whether somebody is a  8 good worker?  9 A  Well, good worker is supposed to be alert at all times  10 and ready to give assistance to someone in need and  11 one that takes leadership and advice and always  12 participating in Feasts and a person that's -- or they  13 always emphasize an early riser.  And whenever you are  14 offered a job, that they don't look at this as just --  15 just the job itself.  They say the person that is  16 offering you a job is offering you money and that's  17 the way they look at it.  Money or some -- something  18 that will -- that you will use in the future.  And  19 that you try and do more without being asked when  20 you're given that task.  21 Q   Does being a good worker also mean being able to  22 provide the House with material goods from your work?  23 A   Yes.  24 Q   Are there leadership qualities that are looked for in  25 new chiefs?  26 A   Yes.  27 Q   And do some of those include the quality of  28 self-direction or self-control?  29 A   Yes.  30 Q   And in terms of hunting or trapping, are there  31 qualities of a chief which are looked to as being  32 desirable qualities?  33 A   Yes.  34 Q   What might be an example for the court that you would  35 look to?  36 A   The hunter always prepares himself for hunts, and they  37 are instructed to create your own luck by preparation.  38 They are told to have of respect, and they have to  39 prepare themselves, that when they go out in the  40 wilderness that they have to be pure.  And they are  41 told that when they do go out in the wilderness that  42 they have no -- no other thoughts but of the hunt.  43 And they have to be careful, analyse every move they  44 make.  And there were two things that my aunt always  45 told me, and they may -- I may have been told that  46 earlier, but I forgotten, is that they said never take  47 a shortcut and don't travel at night, is what I was 1623  Albert Joseph (for Plfs.)  In Chief by Mr. Rush  1 told.  That's the travelling out in the territory.  2 Q   Some of the things that you have talked about, are  3 these qualities which are being looked at for the  4 successor to the name of Madeek?  You told us, I  5 think, earlier on Thursday or Friday that Russell  6 Tiljoe was a possible successor to the name of Madeek?  7 A   Yes.  8 Q   Are these the types of qualities that the Gitdumden  9 chiefs would consider?  10 A   For Russell, who has been living at Houston for most  11 of his adult life, he is -- seems to be out of sight  12 to the chiefs, but they know -- they know that he is a  13 steady worker.  He's been working for maybe the same  14 company over all these years.  But yet when there is a  15 Feast on, he comes and makes his contribution; his  16 children come, make their contribution to their clan.  17 So even though they don't see Russell, they knew that  18 the qualities that were needed were there.  He was  19 using it in a different way, yet it was visible to the  20 chiefs.  21 Q   Now, you would be consulted, would you, as the head of  22 Kaiyexweniits in the decision to choose, for example,  23 Russell as the successor to Madeek?  24 A   Yes.  25 Q   And would Kanoots of your House or of your clan,  26 rather, be also participating in that?  27 A   Yes.  28 Q   And would Woos also participate?  29 A   Yes.  30 Q   All right.  31 A   Even if I am consulted, their elders in Kaiyexweniits  32 would also be consulted in another House.  33 Q   So there is consultation between clans as well --  34 A   Yes.  35 Q   -- as within the clan?  36 A   Yes.  37 Q   Now, can you just tell the court how does the  38 consultation process work?  Maybe starting by saying  39 some of the types of decisions.  We have talked about  40 consulting for the successor to the name.  Are there  41 other types of decisions in which you consult with  42 other chiefs in your clan or in your House?  43 A   Yes.  I think all -- all the names that are to be  44 passed on are always -- there is consultation going on  45 within the House, but if there is a major decision to  46 be made, all the Gitdumden clan would get together and  47 have a meeting and so would the other clans. 1624  Albert Joseph (for Plfs.)  In Chief by Mr. Rush  1 Q   What would be an example of a major decision?  2 A   It would be the court case that we are in today.  3 Q   Okay.  And what about other decisions, for example a  4 decision as to who would be hired to look after the  5 obligations of a funeral Feast?  6 A   Yes.  That is made by the family or House and --  7 Q   When would a decision -- when would decisions like  8 that be carried out?  9 A   That if a person dies and they have a smoke Feast  10 where it is announced that certain part -- certain  11 families would be -- would be given the responsibility  12 of burying a person.  13 Q   And is there consultation about decisions concerning  14 the raising and carving of a pole?  15 A   Yes.  16 Q   And what about concerning the choice of a crest that  17 were placed on a pole?  18 A   Yes.  That would be —.  19 Q   And do members of your House or clan consult  20 concerning songs that would be sung at a Feast?  21 A   No.  That is each person have their own songs.  They  22 do use it any time they want.  23 Q   I see.  And what about the making of a new song, does  24 that depend on a consulted decision or is that a  25 personal decision?  26 A   That's the person's.  27 Q   Okay.  And are there decisions where there are --  28 consultation occurs concerning the management of a  29 chief's territory?  30 A   Yes.  31 Q   And what about matters of conservation on the  32 territory?  33 A   Yes.  There is different -- a difference in the  34 animals that are in each territory.  Some territories  35 are further -- further out into the headwaters and  36 some territories are closer to the main big valleys  37 where they are lower down.  So you have to -- they  38 have to trap each area different -- differently.  39 Q   And those are -- the priority of where you trap would  40 be a decision made internally in a House?  41 A   Yes.  42 Q   Can you just give his lordship an idea of how a  43 decision would be made, let us say a decision  44 concerning the qualities of a succeeding chief.  Does  45 this happen informally or is there a formal structure  46 to it?  47 A  What — 1625  Albert Joseph (for Plfs.)  In Chief by Mr. Rush  1 Q   Just wondering how you would make a decision such as  2 if you and Kanoots and let us say Woos were to  3 consider the qualities of, for example, Russell  4 Tiljoe?  5 A   Yes.  6 Q   How do you do that?  7 A   They -- like Kanoots, who isn't well today, calls us  8 to his place, myself, Woos and other witnesses, and  9 tells us what he wants done, so we have to carry out  10 those wishes of whatever he wants done.  We have to  11 take it to a Feast and announce it there.  If it's  12 concerning territory, names, and we have -- if it's  13 not our Feast, we have to ask the host's permission to  14 do that.  Because of his health, he wants the  15 announcement made as soon as possible.  So we all  16 understand that when the announcement is going to be  17 made and it is important, we are given the floor to  18 make this announcement.  19 Q   Now, in this case Kanoots is the leading chief of the  20 House where Madeek is still the head chief?  21 A   Yes.  22 Q   Yes.  Does Kanoots -- in this example, would Kanoots  23 discuss this choice with you?  24 A   Yes.  25 Q   And his decisions with you?  26 A   Yes.  27 Q   I've asked you about the role that the chiefs play and  28 I've previously distinguished between the chiefs and  29 the sub-chiefs.  Are there roles for the sub-chiefs at  30 the Feast or within the House?  What do they do?  31 A   The sub-chiefs are usually -- it could be your younger  32 brother and it could be an older brother or an uncle  33 who is older than you, and they are still -- still the  34 advisors.  So you have to -- one has to consult  35 with -- they are your family.  So you can't -- a House  36 chief cannot offend the other chiefs within that  37 House.  So you have to consult with them.  38 Q   And that occurs in your House?  39 A   Yes.  40 Q   Now, I am going to ask you about another subject  41 concerning the fishery.  I will first ask you if  42 Gisdaywa and your House owns a fishing site or more  43 than one fishing site?  44 A   Yes.  45 Q   Where are these fishing sites owned?  4 6 A  Moricetown canyon.  47 Q   How many fishing sites does Gisdaywa and the House of 1626  Albert Joseph (for Plfs.)  In Chief by Mr. Rush  1  2  A  3  Q  4  A  5  Q  6  A  7  8  9  MR.  RUSH:  10  11  THE  TRANS  12  MR.  RUSH:  13  Q  14  A  15  Q  16  A  17  Q  18  19  20  A  21  Q  22  A  23  Q  24  A  25  Q  26  27  28  A  29  Q  30  A  31  32  MR.  RUSH:  33  THE  COURT  34  MR.  RUSH:  35  Q  36  37  A  38  Q  39  40  41  A  42  43  Q  44  A  45  Q  46  47  A  Kaiyexweniits own at Moricetown?  Two.  And can you tell -- do these sites have names?  Yes.  And can you tell us the names of the two sites?  There is a bridge at Moricetown, and the first site is  from upriver from the Moricetown bridge is called Nii'  nee ts'ol t'ah.  Now, Mr. Mitchell, can you help us with that,  please?  uATOR:   N-i-i-' n-e-e-s-' — no.  It's '-o-l t-'-a-h.  Thank you.  Is that the first site that you come to?  Upriver, yes.  Yes now --  From the bridge.  If we could just perhaps site this on the -- from the  Moricetown side, are these sites on the side of the  canyon that is closest to Moricetown or farther away?  It will be farther away.  That's the north side?  North side.  Yes.  And then the bridge cuts across the river?  Yes.  And the site, when you say it's upstream, you mean as  you are crossing the bridge from the Moricetown side,  it would be on the right?  Yes.  Okay.  And what's the second site?  Second site would be further upstream and that one is  Wa'azdiizaas.  That's 208, my lord.  :  Thank you.  And that -- that has a meaning in English of "where  your hip bone wears out"?  Yes.  And this site is -- can you say where it's located  physically on the ground?  Is there something that you  know about it that would identify it as yours?  The first one that I mentioned was -- is -- sounds  like it's water -- water splashing against the logs.  Is that the literal translation of the word?  Yes.  And is that located at a particular point or ledge or  rock of some kind?  Yes.  It's sort of a -- it's a narrow little -- or 1627  Albert Joseph (for Plfs.)  In Chief by Mr. Rush  1 sort of an inlet like where it's -- a little -- it's  2 the widest part of that part of the canyon.  3 Q   It's the widest part?  4 A  Widest part, yes.  5 Q   And is that the widest part on the right side of the  6 bridge?  7 A   Yes.  8 Q   As you cross from Moricetown?  9 A   Yes.  10 Q   All right.  And what about the other site, where is  11 that located?  12 A   That one is just -- I think our first site is the  13 third site from the bridge and the last one is the  14 fifth site.  15 Q   All right.  And is that fifth site from the bridge on  16 the north side, is that a site that is at a particular  17 point in the river?  Is there something special about  18 that point?  19 A   Yes.  That's the -- it's a ledge where I think you  20 just -- you have to -- where you use your hips to --  21 it's a narrow place where you just have to -- you are  22 always rubbing your hip against the rock and that's  2 3              why the name is.  24 Q   Okay.  Now, I take it there are other Wet'suwet'en  25 fishing sites along the river --  26 A   Yes.  27 Q   -- on both sides?  Okay.  And do members of your House  28 use these fishing sites?  29 A   Yes.  30 Q   And do members of your clan use these fishing sites?  31 A   Yes.  32 Q   And can you tell us who among those people use as  33 those sites?  And perhaps before I ask you that, is  34 this a gaff site?  35 A   Yes.  36 Q   Or a net site?  37 A  A gaff site.  38 Q   And there is mostly gaff fishing at Moricetown canyon,  39 is there not?  40 A   Yes.  41 Q   At least on the right side of the bridge?  42 A   Yes.  43 Q   All right.  And I had just asked you where -- or  44 excuse me, which of the members of your House or clan  45 were using those sites?  46 A   The most use in quite a bit is Woos.  47 Q   That would be Woos, being Roy Morris? 162?  Albert Joseph (for Plfs.)  In Chief by Mr. Rush  1 A Roy Morris.  Yes.  2 Q 82, my lord.  Yes.  Go ahead.  3 A And Kanoots, his family, use it quite often.  4 Q Kanoots, is that Peter Alfred?  5 A Peter Alfred.  6 Q And he's not well, now?  7 A No.  8 Q And he hasn't used it recently?  9 A Yes.  10 Q But members of his family?  11 A His family, yes.  12 Q Yes.  All right.  And are you given any of the catch  13 that's obtained from the sites?  14 A Yes.  15 Q Would that be from whom?  16 A From Woos.  17 Q Okay.  18 A He gives either fresh or smoked fish for me from the  19 site.  20 Q So you wouldn't be talking about canned or other --  21 A No.  22 Q -- ways?  23 A No.  Smoke.  24 Q All right.  And would your -- would your sons be  25 entitled to fish there?  26 A Yes.  27 Q How many boys do you have?  2 8 A Two.  29 Q Now, there has been blasting of rocks in the  30 Moricetown canyon?  31 A Yes.  32 Q Has your site -- have your sites been affected by the  33 blasting?  34 A The one upriver is one close to the blast.  35 Q Has it -- has it been affected -- or in what way has  36 it been affected?  37 A Sometimes when you are gaffing you have to stay close  38 to the walls of the canyon to -- for -- one is for  39 safety.  If you catch a fish close to the canyon  40 walls, it's -- you will have more control over the  41 fish that you get if it's a spring salmon.  But if  42 there is blasting and rocks falling to the area where  43 you are gaffing, they are big rocks, they can't --  44 they can't drift down the river.  So --  45 Q By "they," you mean the fish?  46 A The fish -- no.  The rocks -- if -- the smaller rocks,  47 they move away, but if it's boulders, they stay there. 1629  Albert Joseph (for Plfs.)  In Chief by Mr. Rush  1  Q  2  A  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  12  Q  13  14  15  A  16  17  18  Q  19  20  21  A  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  Q  32  33  A  34  Q  35  A  36  Q  37  A  38  Q  39  THE COURT  40  A  41  THE COURT  42  A  43  THE COURT  44  45  A  46  47  MR. RUSH:  I see.  So if you are gaffing and you have to gaff out  further, which is when you are gaffing fish for the  spring, you are warned, you are always warned never  fish -- never gaff or fish too far out, because fish  can pull you in if you are gaffing out further out.  If you're gaffing fish straight down, you are pulling  straight up, so it's safer.  But people, some of the  people that have used it since the blast say that  there is rocks straight down.  So that it's -- you  have to -- it's dangerous to catch -- to gaff there.  To your knowledge have other of the fishing sites at  the Moricetown canyon been damaged as a result of the  blasting?  Yes.  Fishing sites that they use have fish ladders in  them and they can't -- they can't gaff in those areas  any more.  All right.  Now, have there been restrictions imposed  on fishing by you, your House members and your clan  members while fishing at Moricetown?  There is a restriction imposed by the D.I.A. where I  am a member of the Hagwilget band, and I am not  registered in the Moricetown band, but it doesn't  affect me as a hereditary chief.  We don't -- in the  Feast hall we are still considered as one village, so  some younger people may think that I am from Hagwilget  and I am not allowed there, going by D.I.A. and the  Fishery laws.  But according to our clan system, the  name Gisdaywa and the ownership of fishing site is  still in Moricetown.  Are there restrictions from the Department of  Fisheries and Ocean?  Yes.  And that is in respect of their --  Permits.  Permits?  Yes.  Okay.  :  Are those called food permits?  Fishing permits.  :  They are called fishing permits?  Yes.  :  Are they the kind of fishing permits that anyone can  buy or are they a fishing kind?  They have a permit that they give to all the band  members. 1630  Albert Joseph (for Plfs.)  In Chief by Mr. Rush  1  Q  2  A  3  Q  4  A  5  Q  6  7  A  8  Q  9  10  A  11  12  13  14  15  Q  16  17  A  18  Q  19  20  A  21  Q  22  23  A  24  Q  25  26  27  A  28  29  Q  30  A  31    ]  MR. RUSH  32  Q  33  A  34  Q  35  36  A  37  Q  38  39  A  40  Q  41  42  A  43  Q  44  A  45  Q  46  A  47  Q  Do you have such a permit?  No.  Does Gisdaywa have a fishing site at Hagwilget?  No.  Perhaps I should ask, does Gisdaywa own a fishing site  at Hagwilget canyon?  No.  Now, there is -- there at least was fishing in the  Hagwilget canyon, is that correct?  Oh, could I answer that first question again.  My  Gisdaywa did put up a platform on the west bank and  used it, but it was a -- it wasn't -- he didn't get  too many fish, but he had his platform there on the  west bank.  Okay.  What about the east bank, were there any  fishing sites owned by Gisdaywa on the east bank?  No.  All right.  But there was fishing done in the  Hagwilget canyon?  Yes.  Okay.  And there are Wet'suwet'en fishing sites in the  Hagwilget canyon?  Yes.  Okay.  And where was it that -- I should ask did  Gisdaywa and the House of Kaiyexweniits fish in the  Hagwilget canyon?  For spring and sockeye, we -- the House Kaiyexweniits,  used our grandfather's fishing site, who was Goohlaht.  Goohlaht?  Goohlaht.  That's 12 on the plaintiff's list.  Did that fishing site belong to Goohlaht?  Yes.  And how long ago was it that the fishing site there  was used by member of your House or by Gisdaywa?  Up until 1959.  And did Gisdaywa have -- and the members of your House  have permission to use Goohlaht's site?  Yes.  And there were other fishing sites at Hagwilget  canyon?  Yes.  And they were net sites?  Net sites, yes.  And there were gaff sites?  Gaff sites.  And if I were facing west, let us say, at the 1631  Albert Joseph (for Plfs.)  In Chief by Mr. Rush  1 Hagwilget bridge, where would the net sites be in  2 relation to where I am standing?  3 A   It would be to your left.  4 Q   Okay.  And were there gaff sites below the bridge?  5 A   Yes.  6 Q   And do you know some of the other Wet'suwet'en chiefs  7 who owned with their Houses the gaff sites and the net  8 sites at Hagwilget canyon?  9 A  As far as I remember, there was only two platforms  10 that were put up every year and that was Goohlaht's  11 site and then to his left further downstream and  12 Smogelgem.  13 Q   Mr. Joseph, you have referred to platforms.  Can you  14 just tell us, did you ever see one of these platforms?  15 A   Yes.  16 Q   What do you mean when you are referring to a platform?  17 A   It's a platform that they use in canyons, and they  18 used to be at Moricetown, too, is a platform that they  19 erect at the fishing site when the water is high in  20 the spring.  For spring salmon fishing and sockeye  21 fishing, where you stand and it's about two feet by 12  22 feet and it's all -- there is no nails in it.  It's  23 all tied, rope, because it has to be lowered as the  24 water goes down or raised as water comes up again, so  25 these platforms were there.  Gaff sites.  26 Q   And these were used by the Wet'suwet'en fisherpeople?  27 A   Yes.  28 Q   Now, you have pointed out a House on one of the -- in  29 the canyon which belonged to the House of  30 Kaiyexweniits?  31 A   Yes.  32 Q   And was this a House that was used by your House  33 members for purposes related to the fishing?  34 A   Yes.  35 Q   What did you use it for?  36 A   For frying fish.  37 Q   Did it act as a smokehouse?  38 A   Yes.  39 Q   And then the fish were packed up to the village up  40 above on the ledge?  41 A   Yes.  42 Q   Okay.  Now, do you know the canyon fishing sites?  You  43 have been down there?  44 A   Yes.  45 Q   And seen fishermen?  46 A   Yes.  47 Q   Fisher people there.  All right. 1632  Albert Joseph (for Plfs.)  In Chief by Mr. Rush  1 THE COURT:  Perhaps, Mr. Rush, we should take the afternoon  2 adjournment now.  3 MR. RUSH:  Very well.  4  5 (PROCEEDINGS ADJOURNED PURSUANT TO AFTERNOON BREAK)  6  7  8 I hereby certify the foregoing to be  9 a true and accurate transcript of the  10 proceedings herein to the best of my  11 skill and ability.  12  13  14 Laara Yardley,  15 Official Reporter,  16 United Reporting Service Ltd.  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47 1633  Alfred Joseph (for Plfs.)  In Chief by Mr. Rush  1 (PROCEEDINGS RECONVENED PURSUANT TO AFTERNOON ADJOURNMENT)  2  3 THE REGISTRAR:  Order in court.  4 THE COURT:  Mr. Rush.  5 MR. RUSH:  6 Q  Thank you.  7 Mr. Joseph, you've described net sites and gaffing  8 sites in the Hagwilget Canyon.  Were there other kinds  9 of fishing sites in that canyon?  10 A  Thexe used to be wejx^__weirsites.  11 Q  Okay.  Were^_there_ trapsirT^Ehere as well?  12 A   Yes. '                   ~"'  13 Q  Did you — did you ever see these yourself?  14 A  I've seen one start — at the mouth of the canyon  15 there was a shed for it.  16 Q  All right.  Mr. Joseph, I want to show you a  17 photograph which is tabulation 11.  Now this is, I  18 think, quite an old photograph, but do you recognize  19 the place of the photograph?  20 A   Yes.  21 Q  Do you recognize the person?  22 A   Yes.  23 Q  Who is that?  24 A   Thomas George.  25 Q  That's — thatJ_s_the former Gisdaywa_as a young man?  26 A   Yes.    27 Q  All right.  And the place where he is apparently  28 fishing, where is that located in the Hagwilget  29 Canyon, if it is?  30 A  _It^s_at the jnojjth^^f^tlie^HajyiJg^t^ Canyon.  31 Q  Okay.  Is this right in the canyon TtseIf or is it a  32 little farther?  33 A  A little farther downstream.  34 Q  All right.  Again, if I'm standing on the bridge  3 5 facing west over Hagwilget Bridge, where would this —  36 this place be?  3 7 A   It would be to your left.  38 Q  Okay.  And would it be — how far down the river woulc  39 it be?  4 0 A   It's right at the mouth of the canyon.  41 Q   All right.  And what kind of fishing can you say is  4 2 being done here, if you know?  43 A   It's a net site.  4 4 Q  All right.  Do you know the owner of that net site?  4 5 A   It's Smogelgem.  46 Q  Okay.  And is this — is this a shallow point in the  47 river or is it deep at this point? 1634  Alfred Joseph (for Plfs.)  In Chief by Mr. Rush  1 A  It's pretty deep.  2 Q  Okay.  Now I want to ask you some other questions  3 about fishing.  Do people fish in the Hagwilget Canyon  4 now, the Wet'suwet'en people fish there?  5 A  The only fishing that's happened today is hook and  6 line, rod and reel.  7 Q  Do any of the Hagwilget people do that kind of fishing  8 there?  9 A  Not too many.  10 Q  Are there any — to your knowledge, are there any  11 fishing by the Gitksan in the Hagwilget Canyon?  12 A  No.  13 Q  All right.  Why is it — this was a place of fishing  14 at one time, was it?  15 A  Yes.  16 Q  And what's changed there?  17 A  There was a rock or a boulder in the middle of the  18 river, and that created falls and —  19 MS. KOENIGSBERG:  Excuse me, My Lord.  I just wonder if we can  2 0 lay the groundwork so that we know here — now hearing  21 hearsay or if it's going to be personal knowledge of  22 this witness.  23 THE COURT:  I'm sure he would be happy to do that.  24 MR. RUSH:  25 Q  Can you tell us — you are going to talk about the  26 blasting of the Hagwilget rock, aren't you?  27 A   Yes.  28 Q  All right.  And were you around when this rock was  29 blasted?  30 A   Yes.  31 0  And were you present during the time that the  32 preparations were made for the blasting of the rock?  33 A   Yes.  34 Q  You lived in Hagwilget at the time?  3 5 A   Yes.  3 6 Q  Okay.  And I take it that you've had something to do  3 7 with the concerns about the Hagwilget rock since it's  38 been blasted?  39 A   Yes.  40 0  And I take it — well tell me, did you attend any  41 meetings of the people at Hagwilget regarding the  4 2 blasting of the rock?  43 A   Yes.  4 4 Q  Can you just tell us, Mr. Joseph, about the rock and  4 5 the rocks as they were placed in the canyon, what —  4 6 where were they located if you can say and what was  4 7 the — why was where they were placed, a place that 1635  Alfred Joseph (for Plfs.)  In Chief by Mr. Rush  1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  affected the fishing?  A  There was a slide at Hagwilget Canyon some time back  and that created falls, and the fish didn't get up for  awhile.  But the people moved some of the rocks for  the fish to get through, and so —  Q  And did the fish — did the fish get through?  A  Yes.  Q  Okay.  A  There was falls there which was about ten foot drop  but it wasn't straight down, it was on an angle, and  the fish coming upriver used to stop for awhile below  the falls.  And if you were fishing there at that time  you could see — see the fish jumping out of the  water, spring salmon, sockeye.  And after laying there  for — it seemed to be — seemed to be training to go  up the falls, and they would stick close to the walls  where you can catch them with the gaff, but we were  catching a lot of fish at that time.  Q  In the early '50's, how plentiful were the fish?  A   They were plentiful, enough — enougji_Xish there  for — for everybody.  And~Tfr~the_nr30's as I remember  it, i useaj^o fisTT there out—an the lower part pf the  canyon and the adult stayed in the canyon to gaff, and  there was tourists coming through that used to come  down there andfTsh, andthere used to_be the— the  wh-i£e_workinq people^THat lived ^around there used to  come into the canyon ancTTish witfi~a~~hook and line and  they got~enough fish.  They — they had quite a load  when they went nome-.  They did that every day.  So the  people — the white people that lived in the  ^surrounding areas benefit fronL-that canyon.  They —  they put up their fish for the winter same way we did,  but they — they fished Jackspring.  Q   All right.  A   In the spring.  Q  Now, Mr. Joseph, what — what happened in the early  '50's that led to the blasting of the rock?  A   In the early '50's there were engineers came into the  canyon and they started putting markers, steel —  steel pins and they were painting different areas all  the way up the canyon.  So they — we — no one knew  why they were doing that, and towards the end of the  '50's, '58, '59, they started having — calling people  of Hagwilget together and started having meetings with  them — with us.  Q  Did you go to some of these meetings?  A   Yes. 1636  Alfred Joseph (for Plfs.)  In Chief by Mr. Rush  1 Q  Okay.  And what did you understand the reason for  2 their presence in the canyon?  3 A  Department of Fisheries said that^the fishing — the  4 splmngjjgs in a decline^ in the Bulkley and that the  5 Hagwilget Canyon was the cause of_ it, and thaTP"£h"ey~~"  6 jwere going To remove~the3>bstructJLoh ~in thejcanyon.  7 Q      And what did they consider the —-"what did you  8 understand them to think the obstruction was?  9 A  They said^ that the _fjj>hweren' t get ting to J:he  10 spawn — some of thefTsTT wereri^t-gettingto the  11 spawning grounds.  12 Q  What was the — what did they think the obstruction in  13 the canyon was?  14 A  The rock that's in the middle of the canyon.  15 Q  Okay.  And what did you understand the people at these  16 meetings that you attended, what did they respond?  17 A  They._werel..asked, for permission to —-_ to blast the rock  18 out,and jth e cha^rmar^c-f thei meetingsl,_was_jthe_-D_ I.A.  19 superintendeht~himself.  2 0 Q  And his —  21 A  And his name was Bailey, W. Bailey I think it was.  22 THE COURT:  Bailey?  23 A   Bailey.  24 THE COURT:  Thank you.  25 A  And he said that the fishery_boys were here to help  26 us^ that they were gcTn^_to2jnake_the_ fish_^- fishing  27 Abetter tor the Hagwilget "people.  But the Wet'suwet'er  28 didn't believe that, the^_said _the_ fisJfPwere  29 getting — getting upstreamJ)y__tliemsjely_es, that they  3 0 didn't need anyone"help get up, and_ they objectecTlTo  31 every ~~evjei^r€Tme tTiere was~^jne£ting_jthey~ said no  32 to whatever the —  33 MR. RUSH:  34 Q   Was —  35 A   — the chairman wanted done.  36 Q  Did you — did you j>i^n_a,_petition with other  3 7 Wet'suwet'en chiejs_and_p^Qple_at_JHagwilget opposing  3 8 the~blasTing pX the ro_ck?  39         A  Yes.   4 0 Q  Have you looked for the petition?  41 A   Yes.  4 2 Q  Have you been able to find it?  43 A   No.  4 4 q  And I take it that the^ rock blasted,  4 5 was it?-"        46 A   Yes.  4 7 Q  Do you remember when that rock was blasted? 1637  Alfred Joseph (for Plfs.)  In Chief by Mr. Rush  1 A  It was on the — some time around '59.  2 Q  And do you know — was there just one rock blasted or  3 was there more than one?  4 A  There was supposed to be only one rock blasted.  5 Q  How many were blastecT?    6 A  Seven_or_eight.  7 Q  And where were the other rocks? You've indicated — I  8 think you've described one as being in the river, in  9 the middle of the river?  10 A   In the middle.  11 Q  Yeah?  12 A  There was quite a few boulders and they were further  13 downstream, and some were about 200 feet downstream  14 and they were also blasted out.  15 THE COURT:  Can you tell me when this slide was that- you  16 melitionea^that put the rocksirTthe river? When was  17 that?  "  18 A —Some of the people-^sjaidit was around 1820.  19 THE COURT:  Oh, before your time?  2 0 A  Before my time, yes.  21 THE COURT:  I see, thank you.  22 MR. RUSH:  23 Q  As a result^ of the blasting, Mr. JosephJL_what^s been  24 the"impact on the fishing, that is, as a result of the  25 blasting of~^ETiose rocks?  26 A  Well the impact of the blasting of the rock is rthat  27 from that daX-^^L_aJLter_Jthe _rock: was blasted out, after  28 tHatT TET^was no more fish taken out of the Hagwilget  2 9 CanyonT  We used_to get about_four_or_5^00_fi_sh a_day  30 from both sides of the canyon, but after the rock was  31 taken ouL you were^belng lucky to get one or two fish  32 in a day.  But for gaffing it was_" no things dip_netting  33 there was nothing^  34 Q  What was the — what was the effect on the — why  3 5 couldn't you_net fish?  3 6 A  The water was too fast for net and too slow for  3 7 gaffing.  There was no_more white"water, you, need  3 8 white watertcPgaff7 and the jrock that was there  39 cre~ated~ tTiaF"~white water.  4 0 Q  Okay:  r~wanF to show you a photograph and see if you  41 can tell us.  Mr. Joseph, I'm showing you a photograph  4 2 of a scene which appears to be Hagwilget Canyon.  Can  43 you identify what this scene depicts?  44 A   It's all the rocks, the big rock.  The main rock I was  4 5 talking about is midstream further up and the smaller  4 6 rocks downstream and on the west side of it.  47 Q  All right, I'm going to come to that in just a second. 1638  Alfred Joseph (for Plfs.)  In Chief by Mr. Rush  1  2  A  3  Q  4  5  A  6  Q  7  8  A  9  Q  10  11  A  12  Q  13  A  14  Q  15  A  16  Q  17  18  19  A  20  Q  21  A  22  23  Q  24  25  26  A  27  28  MR.  RUSH:  29  30  THE  COURT  31  MR.  RUSH:  32  Q  33  34  35  36  37  A  38  Q  39  40  A  41  Q  42  43  44  45  46  THE  COURT  47  MR.  RUSH:  This shows the — does this show the Hagwilget Canyon?  Yes.  And is this the Hagwilget Canyon from the — what side  of the bridge?  It's the south side of the bridge.  All right.  And you've identified some houses at the  canyon level —  Yes.  -- in an earlier photograph.  Do you see those houses  in this photograph?  Yes.  And you also identified a pole, a totem-pole?  Yes.  Can you see that in the photograph as well?  Yes.  And can you judge from this photograph what time of  year it might have been when this photograph was  taken?  It's in the fall.  And how can you show that?  The water level is right downwards where it's low  there.  And can you tell anything about the age of the  photograph by, for example, looking at the bridge  that's there?  The new bridge that's in now was put in 1931, so this  is prior to 1931.  All right.  I wonder if you can show that to His  Lordship.  Thank you.  Now, I'm submitting this photograph to the witness for  the purpose of identifying to the best of his  knowledge the place where this rock was located.  Can  you see -- you've seen where the Hagwilget rock was  prior to the blasting?  Yes.  Are you able to determine from this photograph, where  the rock is located?  Yes.  All right.  Do you want to just put an "R" on what you  say the rock was that was blasted?  You can write it  on this ledge here if you like, Mr. Joseph.  All  right.  I wonder if you would just hand that up to His  Lordship, please.  :  Thank you.  Yes, thank you.  Thank you.  Mr. Joseph — 1639  Alfred Joseph (for Plfs.)  In Chief by Mr. Rush  1  MR.  GOLDI  2  MR.  RUSH:  3  Q  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  A  11  Q  12  A  13  Q  14  15  A  16  Q  17  18  A  19  THE  COURT  20  A  21  THE  COURT  22  23  A  24  25  THE  COURT  26  A  27  THE  COURT  28  A  29  THE  COURT  30  31  MR.  RUSH:  32  Q  33  34  35  36  A  37  Q  38  A  39  40  41  Q  42  43  A  44  Q  45  A  46  Q  47  A  5:  Is that marked?  Not yet, no.  You indicated there was other rocks which were  blasted at the same time.  Where were those other  rocks located? Perhaps you can't identify in  specifics on the photograph, but can you say where in  relation to the rock that you did pinpoint with an  nR" —  Yes.  — where they are located?  They are around the big rock — the one downstream —  Maybe just indicate whether they are on the left or  the right of the photograph?  This one and that.  All right.  I wonder if you just hold that up to His  Lordship and show the other rocks that were taken out?  Further downstream.  :  Yes.  And the smaller ones around the big rock.  :  One close to the big rock and another one further  downstream the other side?  Yes.  And be some other rocks too, you can't see them,  they are out of sight.  Further upstream?  No.  To the right of the —  I see.  Behind the —  Yeah.  — the little promontory there.  Yes, I see, thank  you.  Now Mr. Joseph, there appears to be a white  colouration or shading in front of the rock that  you've marked with an "R".  Is that the white water  that you've referred to?  Yes.  Is that the place where the fishing occurred?  It occurred all the way from there down — all down,  oh, about a hundred feet or hundred and fifty feet  down from there is all white water.  Yes, all right.  And after that rock was taken out,  did you yourself go down there to try and fish?  Yes.  I take it it was the time when the fish were running?  Yes.  And what was the -- did you have any success at all?  No. 1640  Alfred Joseph (for Plfs.)  In Chief by Mr. Rush  1 Q  Do the Wet'suwet'en people either living at Hagwilget  2 or Moricetown, do they fish in the Hagwilget Canyon  3 now?  4 A  No.  5 MR. RUSH:  Okay.  I'm going to ask this to be marked as an  6 exhibit, please.  7 THE COURT:  Yes.  What number is that, Madam Registrar?  8 THE REGISTRAR:  Sixty-four.  9 THE COURT:  Thank you.  10  11 (EXHIBIT 64 - Photograph)  12  13 MR. RUSH:  14 Q       Was  the  fishing  at  the Ha^wJJ^ejt^_Canyon_considered a  15 value --~a valued fishery by the Wet'suwet^en~people?  16 A       Yes.  17 Q   Crtg_any-_department of the Federal government—offer to  18 give the Hagwilget people, or in fact provide the  19 Hagwilget people with anything as a result of the  2 0 blasting ot_jTTe~ fishery?  21 A   NOT        "  22 Q  Did you get something from the Department of Fisheries  23 some years later?  24 A   Yes.  25 Q  What was given to you and when?  2 6 A  Quite a few years later there was a meeting in  27 Vancouver and the Department of Fishery officials were  28 there and the fishing issue was raised and —  29 Q  Mr. Joseph, were you at this meeting?  30 A  No, no.  31 Q  Okay.  You know about the meeting?  32 A   I know about the meeting, I was there just after that.  3 3 Q   Okay.  34 A  And Margaret Austin —  35 MS. KOENIGSBERG:  I'm sorry, I don't know how this witness can  36 tell us what happened at the meeting if he wasn't  37 there.  38 MR. RUSH:  That's fair enough.  39 THE COURT:  It's not going to be asked.  40 MR. RUSH:  41 Q  No.  Mr. Joseph, I want to know as a result of the  4 2 meeting — you say Margaret Austin was there?  43         A  Yes.  4 4 Q  As a result of the meeting, what —  45 A   Well we —  4 6 Q  — what happened?  4 7 A  Few days later I was at a meeting with the same people 1641  Alfred Joseph (for Plfs.)  In Chief by Mr. Rush  1 and I brought the fishing issue up again, and they  2 told me that this has already been dealt with.  They  3 said, "One or two of your band members were at a  4 meeting some days earlier," and said, "we are dealing  5 with it already."  So I just didn't say anymore to  6 that.  That was the first time we — we got some fish,  7 canned fi^hJTrom"tHe^Pepartmght~^oT~FisherTes. ~  8 Q  When did you get itT^ do you remember?"  9 A   I don't remember the date.  10 Q  Okay.  Do you remember how many years later after the  11 blasting of the rock which you said, I think, occurrei  12 in '58 or '59?  13 A   Mus t^>e 2 0_years .  14 Q  Okay.  So you got some canned fish from the Department  15 of Fisheries?  16 A   Yes.  17 Q  Where did they leave it?  18 A   Thex_shipp^d^.t^_up_jt^^j^!_JJi-a^ Jtruck.  19 0  And did you get anything else later on?  Did that  20 happen again?  21 A   Yes.  I think it was the next year that they said tha-  22 they were going to send in some fresh fish, but when  23 those fish arrived at Hagwilget they were — none of  24 our people could use it.  25 Q   Why not?  26 A   Because they were all green and all different colours  2 7 and didn't look like salmon to our people.  They were  28 fish that were in the spawning channel, late in the  29 fall.  30 0  And after that second year, did you receive any fish  31 from the Department of Fisheries?  32 A   I think we got another shipment of fish after that.  3 3 0  Do you remember when?  34 A   No.  We have the dates in our office.  3 5 0  Okay.  Do_youj_ilr. Joseph, accept ^any of this fish as  36 compensation for the loss^-of—y-oux fishery?  3 7 A   No, not aTter^JDTyears.  38 0  AncTn3^ygir~claim the rights to the_ fishery?  Do the  39 W e t1 s u wetj jen_pe_ople Tela im fishing rights to that  4 0 fishery?  41 A   Yes:  4 2 0  And today, Mr. Joseph, you indicated that you receive*  4 3 fish from Woos, I think?  44 A   Yes.  4 5 0  And is this -- is this the way_that_you receive your  46 fish today?  4 7 a   Yes. 1642  Alfred Joseph (for Plfs.)  In Chief by Mr. Rush  1 Q  How do the — how, if you know«_do_the other  2 WetVsuwet'en people who rplied upon thp fishpry in the  3 Hagwilget Canyon, how do they receive their fish  4 ^today? '  5 A  They mostly trade for the fishj^and some have  6 relative's that. th~ey~~can get fish fromT And sometimes  7 we set nets TrT^EHe~ canyon buTTTt' s just not enough  8 to — it's more work going up and down that hill, and  9 you have to get poles and buy the nets, and like I  10 said, it's — the — you just — it's pretty hard for  11 our people to get fish.  But that's not the only —  12 you ask me for an impact, but there is other things  13 that we've — we can't — our people can't do anymore.  14 The younger people — that canyon was used by people  15 that were blind before blasting.  People__as_young^as  16 five qr^ six years old could go down there_-and fish'.  17 It_wasT!:he f ir^t_piace_j:or a_ young_person to go on  18 your own to make_jrour_l±ying.  But when -- and the  19 oldest person — I've seen blind people go out and get  20 gaff poles in the spring, come back homeland make  21 their gaf~f~7—go—down there.  They~knew "aTlT^the trai 1 s,  22 they knew aJ^TTHe^footTng in the canyons, and they  23 were^^^^THey^gaffed. They catctwiTish and put up  24 their own — they got somebody to — if they caught  25 their own fish they got somebody to dry it for them,  26 but they — they had to do all those things.  Those  27 elders in the 30's never got^pension,,^ there, was no  28 family allowances.  They — the — our people for the  2 9 first 50 years of the century never did get pension.  3 0 They were blind people too, like I said, that had to  31 look out for themselves, and the housing on the  32 reserve was done by our own people.  So when that  33 fishing was out, ,.there_i.s no youngpeople orPour  34 reserve that know how to — how_to_put up fish, split  3 5 the fish, the timing, the wood that^s needed, all that  36 is gone. So it's—not just the Ioss]jp'f~the JLLshTthat  37 afTicts us, it's — it's~~a_way oTTlfethat' s jone.  38 And the people that was supposed to protect us, pushed  39 that; and I'm talking about the~Federal government,  40 the D.i .a. , they were "instflimlsrrta^ being  41 blasted out of there^—Ttiey~p^Td~~forthe blasting of  4 2 that rock, ancTwe are still paying today for the  43 blasting of that rock.  44 q  You talked about the way of life.  How important is  4 5 the fish today to the Wet'suwet'en?  4 6 A   It's very important.  If that rock was still there  47 today, we get three or four fish out of there with — 1643  Alfred Joseph (for Plfs.)  In Chief by Mr. Rush  1 it's still — we are still right — it's still the  2 rock — the Fisheries admitted after the rock was  3 taken out that they were wrong, that the fish — the  4 spawning was still on the decline in the Bulkley, and  5 some of the people said that the fish that went  6 through the canyon there went through too early.  By  7 the time they reach the spawning grounds they were too  8 early and they were too fat by the time they hit the  9 spawning grounds.  So that the removal of that rock  10 really — well, whose fault was it?  It wasn't our  11 fault.  When we asked the Department of Fisheries  12 about that years later, they ask us, "What do you want  13 us to do? You want us to put the rock back? We'll do  14 it."  That's what some of the engineers said.  But the  15 D.I.A. and the Federal government they silent on that.  16 Q  There was smokehouses in the canyon floor that you  17 pointed out to us?  18 A  Yes.  19 Q   And I take it that smoking and the use of fish was an  20 important part of the diet of Wet'suwet'en people?  21 A  Yes"; ~~~~~ ~  22 Q   Is that — is that so now?  23 A   Yes.  24 Q  And do you — do_you use the fish both for _fopd  25 purposes and for other pnrpnsp.s?  Do yon exchange—the  2 6 fLsh  in the feast, for-example, or trade it?  27 A   Yes.  They — our people traded fish. ~~  28 Q  Mr. Joseph, before the rock was blasted, what — what  29 kind of — what numbers of fish were taken from the  30 Hagwilget Canyon, how many fish did people take out of  31 there, your best estimate?  Perhaps even you could say  32 how much your House took out of there?  33 THE COURT:  He told me, Mr. Rush, he used to get four to 500  34 fish per day.  3 5   MR. RUSH:  Yes.  And there was another answer which I thought he  36 made mention of three to four fish.  37 THE COURT:  That was after the rock.  38 MR. RUSH:  3 9 Q  Okay.  That's what you —  40 A   Yes.  41 Q  All right.  The other question that I had was that you  4 2 mentioned that the — one of the people or perhaps  4 3 more than one of the people of the Hagwilget Village  44 was blind and yet could negotiate the route down to  4 5 the — to the fishery?  46 A   Yes.  47 Q  Was that a difficult route? 1644  Alfred Joseph (for Plfs.)  In Chief by Mr. Rush  1  A  2  3  4  Q  5  A  6  0  7  A  8  9  10  11  12  13  Q  14  A  15  Q  16  A  17  Q  18  A  19  Q  20  21  A  22  Q  23  A  24  Q  25  A  26  Q  27  A  28  Q  29  30  31  32  A  33  Q  34  35  36  A  37  38  39  0  40  41  A  42  0  43  A  44    j  MR. RUSH  45  46  47  It was.  But they knew the trails and they — I  remember they would go right into the canyon with a  cane and a gaff pole.  Because of their familiarity with it?  Yes.  With the —  I remember the — how I know the persons who are blind  is one of them went out to get a gaff pole and he lost  his knife out there, so he came home without his knife  but he hired a bunch of us kids to go out and look for  his knife the next day.  And we found it for him, and  we had to go right back to where he cut his gaff pole.  Are there smokehouses in Moricetown today?  Yes.  Okay.  Are there any smokehouses in Hagwilget?  Yes.  Are there very many?  No.  Okay.  Were there more smokehouses in Hagwilget prior  to the blasting of the rock?  Yes.  People used to smoke their fish —  Yes.  — at that time?  Yes.  Okay.  Every House had a — every family had a smokehouse.  And you mentioned that there was a place where —  today where there could be some netting, net fishing.  Did you say that in — on the Bulkley, around  Hagwilget?  No.  That's not in the canyon.  Okay, that's what I — I wanted to determine if_ there  were any net or gaff sites that_jwere useable by the'  Wetr^uwet rer]T people- in "the canyon today?  No-; Because bhexe~~ls~~ -^"the Fishery came back after  the~ blasting of the rock and tried to find a net site  but they didn't find a site right in the canyon.  And the Wet'suwet'en people tried to find a net site,  did they?  Yes.  And a gaff site?  Gaff sites too.  All right.  My Lord, I intend to pause there and  continue my examination tomorrow.  Mr. Grant — I  pause now before the hour because Mr. Grant indicated  there was a matter that he wanted to deal with so I 1645  Proceedings  1 was going to just pass it over to him for a moment.  2 THE COURT:  Yes, all right.  3 MR. GRANT:  Yes, My Lord.  The only matter I wish to deal with  4 was rather minor at this stage.  It was — I indicated  5 when Gyolugyet, Mary McKenzie, gave evidence that —  6 regarding seating at different Feasts that I would  7 arrange for charts to update or to reflect more  8 accurately her evidence in the charts that are at  9 Exhibits 2-4, 2-5 and 2-6, and these were seating  10 charts at different Feasts.  I provided copies of the  11 proposed seating charts to my learned friends, and 1'ir  12 not certain if they have any concerns with respect to  13 them.  But if not I wanted to tender those in and I  14 propose to mark each of them as under Exhibit 2 and as  15 Exhibit 2 with those references.  If they have any  16 concerns, I — I think it's more appropriate that we  17 could deal with them outside of court if they have any  18 problems, but I haven't heard any concerns.  19 THE COURT:  All right.  Is there any problem, Mr. Goldie?  20 MR. GOLDIE:  I haven't seen the document in question, and I can  21 advise Your Lordship tomorrow morning of it.  22 THE COURT:  All right.  23 MR. MACAULAY:  I'm in the same position.  24 THE COURT:  All right.  You can speak to the same matter again  25 tomorrow morning if you like.  26 MR. GRANT:  Yes, My Lord.  27 THE COURT:  Could I just say that I have received a request and  28 inquiry for a copy of my draft reasons on hearsay from  29 other counsel on other cases, and I gather, like all  3 0 other matters, legal word travels rapidly.  I have —  31 I have advised my office that anyone who wants it is  32 free to have a copy of it, but it is not to be  33 published or anything of that kind.  And I would  34 appreciate when we have our legal argument, whenever  35 it is, if counsel could also at that time deal with  3 6 the question of whether I should treat those reasons  37 as being final or whether counsel would like to make  38 some further submissions that may lead me or persuade  39 me to change them.  If it is convenient, I would like  4 0 to hear from counsel about that some time at their  41              convenience.  4 2 All right, we'll adjourn then until ten o'clock  4 3 tomorrow morning.  4 4 THE REGISTRAR:  Order in court.  45  46  47 1646  Proceedings  1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  (PROCEEDINGS ADJOURNED AT 4:00 p.m.)  I hereby certify the foregoing to be  a true and accurate transcript of th<  proceedings herein transcribed to ttv  best of my skill and ability.  Toni Kerekes,  United Reporting Service Ltd,


Citation Scheme:


Citations by CSL (citeproc-js)

Usage Statistics



Customize your widget with the following options, then copy and paste the code below into the HTML of your page to embed this item in your website.
                            <div id="ubcOpenCollectionsWidgetDisplay">
                            <script id="ubcOpenCollectionsWidget"
                            async >
IIIF logo Our image viewer uses the IIIF 2.0 standard. To load this item in other compatible viewers, use this url:


Related Items