Delgamuukw Trial Transcripts

Commission Evidence of Stanley Williams Vol. 5 British Columbia. Supreme Court Apr 26, 1988

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 Mb* 0*sHr?tv.&~  GITKSAN WETSUWETEN  TRIBAL COUNCIL  LIBRARY  3n tl]c Supreme QJnuri of ^rittsfj ColumHa  No. 084 3  Smithers  Registry  Hazelton,   B.   C.  April   26,   27,   28,1988  BETWEEN:  AND:  DELGAMUUKW, also known as KEN MULDOE,  suing on his own behalf and on behalf  of all other members of the HOUSE OF  DELGAMUUKW, and others,  Plaintiffs;  HER MAJESTY THE QUEEN IN RIGHT OF THE  PROVINCE OF BRITISH COLUMBIA and  THE ATTORNEY GENERAL OF CANADA,  Defendants.  COMMISSION EVIDENCE  OF  STANLEY WILLIAMS  VolumZ  United Reporting Service Ltd.  OFFICIAL k. FREELANCE XEFORTEXS  ♦B-D30 WEST GEOKG1A ST.. VANCOUVER, %£. VbE 4H4  (KM) 689-USE ( :   <3ln i\\t Supreme (Enurt of JSrittsI| (Columbia'  No 0843 Hazelton, B. C.  Smithers Registry  April 26, 27, 28,1988  BETWEEN:  DELGAMUUKW, also known as KEN MULDOE,  suing on his own behalf and on behalf  of all other members of the HOUSE OF  DELGAMUUKW, and others,  AND:  Plaintiffs;  HER MAJESTY THE QUEEN IN RIGHT OF THE  PROVINCE OF BRITISH COLUMBIA and  THE ATTORNEY GENERAL OF CANADA,  Defendants.  COMMISSION EVIDENCE  OF  STANLEY WILLIAMS  United Reporting Service Ltd.  OFFICIAL Ml FREELANCE REPORTERS  MO-B30 WEST GEORGIA ST.. VANCOUVER. BX. MbE 4H4  (604)689-1088 APPEARANCES:  PETER R. GRANT, Esq. ,  Appearing for the Plaintiffs;  P. GEOFFREY PLANT, Esq.,  Appearing for the Defendant Her  Majesty the Queen in Right of  the Province of British Columbia;  MS. MARVYN KOENIGSBERG, and  MICHAEL W. W. FREY, Esq.,  Appearing for the Attorney-General  of Canada. INDEX OF EXHIBITS  NUMBER DESCRIPTION PAGE  10 Letter Dated April 12, 1971 301  11 Affidavit of Stanley Williars  Dated November 23, 1987 304  12 Affidavit of Alice Sampson  Dated November 2 3, 198 7 304  13 Indian Food Fishing Licence 327  14 Gitwingax Fishing Sites Map 351 ii  INDEX OF WITNESSES FOR THE PLAINTIFFS  NAME PAGE  WILLIAMS, Stanley  Cross-exam by Mr. Plant (Cont'd) 291  Cross-exam by Ms. Koenigsberg 326  Re-Exam by Mr. Grant 374 291  S. Williams (For Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam By Mr. Plant  1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  Hazelton, B. C.  April 26, 1988.  STANLEY WILLIAMS, Resumed:  CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR. PLANT:  (Continued)  MR. PLANT:  Q  This is Tuesday, April 26th, 1988 and I am continuing  my cross-examination of Stanley Williams, Chief Gwis  gyen.  Gwis gyen, I had asked you some questions on Friday  when we last met about Cranberry River.  I want to  show you a map.  I only have one copy of it, I am  afraid.  This is part of a map prepared by the  Provincial Government showing registered traplines.  Would you please translate that?  MR. GRANT:  Can I just take a look at it?  MR. PLANT:  Yes, it's a copy of the map which I think is Exhibit  24-A.  MR. GRANT:  It's a copy of that map, is it?  MR. PLANT:  Yes.  Q  I want to orient you to the map, to that part of the  map which I have in front of you.  Can you see there a  place marked as Kitwanga Lake and along here, Kitwanga  River, and just below the fold, down an inch or so,  the village of Kitwanga and, finally, as it comes  along here, the Nass River and then the river which on  this map is marked as the Cranberry River.  Now, on  this map, Chief Gwis gyen, the map maker has  identified this creek or this body of water that comes  around from here as Cranberry River.  Do you know the  area that I am talking about now?  A  Yes, I know this.  This lake, I know is there.  MR. GRANT:  He is pointing to the Kit Wan, what's marked as on  this map as Kitwanga Lake and to the river that flows  presumably roughly in a northwesterly direction  through a whole bunch of what looks like lots that —  is labelled the Cranberry River going northwest from  the lake.  MR.  PLANT:  Q  In the upper part of Cranberry River, and I am now  referring to the extreme upper part here, which is  within this territory, this area marked on this map as  06152208.  I want you to think about this upper part  of this creek or river and tell me what the Gitksan  name for that place is? And by the place I mean the  river. 292  S. Williams (For  Cross-exam By Mr  Plaintiffs)  Plant  i  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  A  Q  MR. GRANT  MR. PLANT  A  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  MR. GRANT  MR. PLANT  A  Q  A  MR. GRANT  MR. PLANT  MR. GRANT  MR. PLANT  Q  A  Q  I don't know this place.  That belongs to the  Kitwancool people.  Do you know which of the Kitwancool chiefs owns this  particular territory?  Where the upper part of that -- where the upper part  of that river is?  The extreme upper part of Cranberry River.  I never seen this map and I don't know what kind of  map it is, but I know the territory belongs to  Kitwancool but I don't know who it is.  We are talking  about Kitwanga territory not Kitwancool territory.  Have you, yourself, ever trapped at the headwaters of  the Cranberry River?  No.  No, I have never been there.  I am going to change the subject now, Chief Gwis gyen.  I have a couple of questions that don't relate to each  other.  The first is, have you, yourself, ever  attended feasts in Kispiox?  Yes, I go to the feasts there.  Now, another different question, have you ever heard  of a place called Ansinoon, A-N-S-I-N-O-O-N?  Say it again?  It's Mr. Sterritt's spelling that I am using and I  don't know how to pronounce it.  The spelling I have  is A-N-S-I-N-O-O-N.  Is it in Kispiox?  No, it may have something as to do with the terri  of Chief Yal.  It has nothing to do with Kispiox  I know.  :  You mean the territory of Yal in the  :  That's right.  There is a place called Ansinoon but I  Ansinoon.  Where is the place that you do know?  It's up at Hax bagwootxw.  :  I understand that your spelling may be off and  is a reference to it, to what he said, on Exhibit  Kitwanga a  don't know  tory  that  rea?  that  there  4-B  of  his —  ■  of  the maps.  say.  Okay,  I understand that but the word —  It's not my spelling, as I  No, no  The place that you referred to, Chief Gwis gyen,  Ansinoo, is that on Hax bagwootxw's territory?  He is close to Ansinoo, Hax bagwootxw.  What kind of feature is Ansinoo, is it a hill, a  creek, a valley, a mountain?  It's a hill.  is 293  S. Williams (For Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam By Mr. Plant  1 Q  You say Kax bagwootxw is close to it, is it on the  2 boundary between Hax bagwootxw and somebody else, some  3 other territory, or is it inside Hax bagwootxw's  4 territory?  5 A  Yes, it's inside Hax bagwootxw, it belongs to Hax  6 bagwootxw. Ansinoo.  He said, do you know where  7 Ansinoo is?  That is what you are asking?  8 Q  No, I don't know where Ansinoo is.  That is why I am  9 asking you.  10 MR. GRANT:  Is that a reference in his commission, that  11 spelling?  12 MR. PLANT:  No, it's not.  It comes from one of Neil Sterritt's  13 notebooks.  14 Q  Now, Chief Gwis gyen, I want to ask you a question  15 about Exhibit 1 from your commission, which is marked  16 as a seating plan.  And I — I have now put before you  17 my copy -- it's going to make it a little harder to  18 ask you some questions.  19 MR. GRANT:  Can I just — I want to interject because I intended  20 before the completion of the direct to put on the  21 record and I — that what you have on Exhibit 1 is —  22 there is the centre of table marked and then there is  23 a line.  24 MR. PLANT:  Yes?  25 MR. GRANT:  That, in fact, and on my copy of it, I noted it up  26 but I hadn't put on the record the correction.  That  27 was an error in the transcription by my staff.  In  28 fact, the witness described that Wiigyet sits at the  29 centre table and I propose, if there is no objection  30 from counsel, the centre seat — the centre seat of  31 the table, I propose to actually file an amended one  32 which reflects what the evidence has said and  33 that's — that was always my understanding as well and  34 when this was made, the — there shouldn't have been  35 that line there on Exhibit 1.  I am saying that to you  36 now because you are moving into cross on this area.  37 MR. PLANT:  Well, I — that was the first question I was going  38 to ask.  And if I straightened it out, and it's  39 probably quite unnecessary to file a new exhibit.  The  40 record will show how the error came to be.  41 MR. GRANT:  Well, all I am saying is that the witness won't know  42 that this line was put in by my staff and it was just  43 an error and I wanted this filed and I wanted to  44 correct it and I wanted you to know that for the  45 record, both counsel.  And I always understood —  46 MR. PLANT:  47 Q  My first question about this document, Chief Gwis 294  S. Williams (For  Cross-exam By Mr  Plaintiffs  Plant  1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  MS.  THE  MR.  MR.  MR.  MR.  MR.  gyen, really doesn't require you to look at the  document.  If you think of the feast hall and the  seating table of your clan, does Wiigyet sit in the  centre of the table?  A  Right.  Q  Now, are there chiefs who sit across the  you but at the same table?  On the other  table, in other words.  A  Yes, there is some people there.  C  And is it your understanding that the person  across from your seat is someone who will be  become your successor to the name Gwis gyen?  A  Yes.  K'aat'im haayetsxw may sit in front of  then if not, Tk'el gumtxw will sit in front  KOENIGSBERG:  I need the spelling.  TRANSLATOR:  Tk'el gumtxw is number 90; K'aat'im haayetsxw  is 115.  PLANT:  Q  table from  side of the  who sits  or may  me, and  of me.  A  GRANT  PLANT  GRANT  PLANT  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  me  of  When Arthur McDames was alive, where did he, where was  his seat at the feast table?  Where Hax Bagwootxw is, beside  hold a feast?  I will tell you  of the people.  Well, let me ask you this:  When  Arthur McDames was alive, did he  you?  On my left-hand side.  You are talking about a feast  you, which is what this seating  Yes.  Can you just translate that.  Are you going to  the seating places  Hax Bagwootxw, when  sit beside Wiigyet or  in Gitsegukla,  is?  are  When Arthur McDames passed away, did Ken Harris live  in Prince Rupert?  Yes, he lived in Rupert.  Why didn't you take the name Hax Bagwootxw?  My grandfather's name is more powerful than  the  Hax  take  Bagwootxw name and it wasn't possible for me to  it.  I didn't hear the last part of it?  It was impossible for me to take it because of —  Was there discussion at the time that Arthur McDames  passed away about whether it was appropriate that  someone living so far away should take the name Hax  Bagwootxw?  The chiefs would have a meeting and they would select  a successor.  And this is what happened with Ken 295  S. Williams (For  Cross-exam By Mr  Plaintiffs)  , Plant  1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  THE  MR.  MR.  THE  MR.  about another name on  Harris, they selected him and Rupert is just a few  hours by car to Gitsegukla.  Q  I want to ask you some questions  the seating plan,  bottom of Exhibit  it.  Is that name  TRANSLATOR:  Yoop'X.  It's this second name  1, and I don't think I  held by Elmer Derrick?  from the  can pronounce  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  MR. GRANT  Yes,  Does  it is him now.  Elmer Derrick have  his own house or is he in  someone else's house?  He is in Wiigyet's house.  You told us that Wiigyet does not have any territory  of his own, does that mean Elmer Derrick as Yoop'x  also would have no territory of his own?  Yes, he doesn't have any territory also.  If he wants to go trapping or hunting, is he required  of one of the other chiefs?  territory?  I mean, where do you  PLANT  GRANT  MR. PLANT:  to ask permission  You mean in the  mean?  I don't know.  If he wanted to to go trapping or  Fraser Valley, that's not a subject  action.  I see.  I didn't realize my question  ambiguity.  If he wants to go trapping or hunting within  territory which is the subject matter of this action,  Chief Gwis gyen, is he required to ask permission?  Yes, this is the way it is.  He has to do this, if he  hunting in the  matter of this  created that  the  wants to use someone else's territory, he has  to  on  go  to  to  that chief and ask permission before he walks  the territory.  Now, there is one more name on Exhibit 1, or another  name on Exhibit 1 I want to ask you about,  the second name from the top, Antgulilbix, is that  name of a chief that sits at the feast table when  you're at the feast table at Gitsegukla?  His name is Alfred McDames.  He  and that's  the  A  Yes, he sits there.  has passed on now.  name was 'Wii yagaa  TRANSLATOR:  88.  PLANT:  Alfred  Deets.  McDames's other chief's  Q  Who has the seat at Antgulilbix's place today?  A  Eli Turner.  Q  And Eli Turner today also holds the name 'Wii yagaa  Deets?  A  Yes. 296  S. Williams (For Plaintiffs  Cross-exam By Mr. Plant  1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  MR,  MR,  MR,  MR,  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  GRANT  PLANT  A  Q  A  Q  A  GRANT:  PLANT  A  MR. GRANT:  MR. PLANT:  THE INTERPRETER  MR. PLANT:  Do you or did you know a Henry Wilson?  Yes, I know him.  Is he still alive?  Yes, he is still alive.  And is he a chief in the house of Xsgogimlaxha?  Yes, he is one of the —  Just a moment.  I think he was just — he was just  thinking.  I was going to ask you if his name was 'Niis Noohl?  Yes.  Does 'Niis Noohl have a special place within  Antgulilbix — I am sorry, within Xsgogimlaxha's  house?  What were you saying, Xsgogimlaxha?  Does 'Niis Noohl have a special place within  Xsgogimlaxhas's house?  There is too many and I can't remember right now.  I just wonder, the — you say there is a special  place, whether you are talking about a location or a  function?  Or a location at seating?  Or a role within  the house?  A special role or function is what I am asking.  He is saying he sits close to the door as you are  coming in, he says there is the door there and he sits  on this side and you are coming in I guess on this  side.  'Niis Noohl.  Does he have a special role or function? You told me  about where he sits and I thank you for that.  Does he  have a special role or function within Xsgogimlaxha' s  house? You could ask him, if that's hard to  translate, could you ask him if 'Niis Noohl has  special duties that are different from the duties of  other chiefs.  In that house?  In that house, yes.  I still can't get it across to him.  Q  Well, let's move on.  It's not that important.  A   'Niis Noohl has always been sitting there since the  ancient times and he has no special function, he is  just the same as the other chiefs and if he dies then  they will do the same thing, they will get a successor  and put him in the same seat.  Q  Do the Gisk'aast, the Fireweed chiefs of Gitsegukla,  consult with each other about their use of the  territories?  A  I have said this so many times, that we have the law 297  S. Williams (For  Cross-exam By Mr  Plaintiffs)  Plant  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  MR  Q  GRANT  A  Q  A  A  MR. GRANT  MR. PLANT  Q  in our house and if this member of my house wants to  use the territory, he has to come and ask me first,  and if I say, okay, go ahead, then it's all right for  them to go on the territory.  And the other house  members of the other Gisk'aast clans will do the same  thing, they will ask their head chief.  You have told us that before and —  Let him finish.  They will ask their own head chief. They don't come  to me and ask me about their head chief's territory.  Like a house member will have to ask his or her head  chief permission to go on their own territory. If I  wanted to go on Guxsan's territory to hunt goats and  if he says that I would have to go there and ask him  permission, and if he says I could go, I will go, and  if he says no, then I won't go.  I understand all of that.  Do the head chiefs, such as  yourself and Guxsan and Xsgogimlaxha, do they discuss  with each other what's happening on their territories  to keep each other up to date on their activities?  We would not just talk lightly of this.  When there is  a feast, then we talk about this.  Do you know —  If there is any problems with our territory, then we  just call a meeting with our own house members.  Are you aware of whether or not Henry Wilson has a  registered trapline?  Yes, I am aware of this.  He stole our territory at  Xsa'an Gokhl.  It's inside of the will.  I don't have a note of the last part, inside of the  will?  Inside of the will.  :  The will.  When you say inside of the will, you mean one of  territories, Xsa'an Gokhl is one of the territori  that's in the will?  A  Yes, it's on there.  I told Henry, I have talked  Henry and —  Q  Do you know, and this may be more appropriately  addressed to you, madam interpreter, do you know  the words in the name Xsgogimlaxha have any meani  English?  THE INTERPRETER:  Well, I will ask.  A Xsgogimlaxha, that means, the first — Xsgook mea  first, Laxha means the sky. There is no territor  Xsgogimlaxha, because Gitssegukla, originally  the  es  to  if  ng in  ns  y for 298  S. Williams (For Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam By Mr. Plant  1 originated from Hagwilget.  The same with Henry  2 Wilson.  3 Q  When you say that Xsgogimlaxha originated from  4 Hagwilget, is that something that occurred a long time  5 ago or within your lifetime?  6 A  That's a long, long time ago.  And this has never  7 changed.  8 Q  Would I be correct in assuming that Xsgogimlaxha' s  9 proper place at the feast hall now is in Gitsegukla,  10 rather than in Hagwilget?  11 A  Yes, he does have a say in Gitsegukla, similar as  12 Wiigyet.  13 Q  Similar in the sense that he does not have his own  14 territory? Well, I don't have to ask it that way.  15 You said he is similar to Wiigyet, in what sense do  16 you mean he is similar?  17 A  Yes, it's the same as Wiigyet, they gave him a seat  18 and that's all he's got with no territory.  19 Q  Now, there is one more name I want to ask you about on  20 Exhibit 1, and that is the name at the top of the  21 column.  I am not sure of if its pronunciation,  22 Ts'aa'uulst? Does that name, is that held by David  23 Milton?  24 THE TRANSLATOR:  Ts'aa'uulst.  25 MR. PLANT:  26 Q  Sorry, my pronunciation has deteriorated over the  27 weekend.  Not that it had risen to any particularly  28 great heights.  29 A  Yes.  30 Q  Now, does he have his own house or is he part of  31 someone else's house?  32 A  He hasn't worked for that name, it's — he is holding  33 it now and he hasn't done enough work.  Wiigyet don't  34 recognize him yet.  He is in the house of Guxsan.  35 Q  Does David Milton have a seat at the head table today  36 or does that have to wait until the other chiefs  37 recognize him?  38 A  He sits at the end of the table today.  39 Q  How long has David Milton been holding this name?  40 A  I can't tell you the exact years.  It's when Arthur  41 Sampare passed on.  I have forgotten how many years.  42 Q  Was Arthur Sampare, did he hold the name before David  43 Milton?  44 A  Yes, he was the chief that had that name.  45 Q  Does Ts'aa'uulst have his own territory or is his  46 territory — does he share in the territory of Guxsan?  47 A  Yes, he is using Guxsan's territory. 299  S. Williams (For  Cross-exam By Mr  Plaintiffs)  Plant  1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  MR,  MR,  MR,  MR,  MR,  MR,  MR,  MR,  MR,  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  MR. GRANT:  PLANT  GRANT  PLANT  GRANT  PLANT  GRANT  PLANT  Now, I want to ask you some questions about another  subject.  Have you ever been a member of the band council in  Kitwanga?  Years ago I was with them but not today I am not.  And do you still vote in the band council elections  today?  Yes, I do.  I want to refer you to or ask you to direct your  attention to an election for the band council in about  1971 where Joe Daniels was elected.  When you first ask me for council, I got that in here.  So you remember there were — there was some  difficulties with the election of Joe Daniels, do you  recall that?  Well, just a moment.  What do you mean there were  some difficulties with the election of Joe Daniels?  That could mean any number of things.  Why don't you  rephrase your question.  If there are any number of answers I am certainly  prepared to hear all of them, if there is.  I don't know what you mean by difficulties.  Was  there difficulties with the Indian Act processing  forms, was there difficulties with the nominating  process, was there difficulties with people getting  rides to the polling booth? What do you mean by  difficulties?  This is such a wide question I object  to it.  I want you to rephrase your question.  I have a note of your question.  But —  I would like you to rephrase it.  My understanding of the procedure that we followed  in the commissions to date —  So you won't rephrase it for us?  :  I don't think it's necessary to rephrase it  witness has some difficulty  he will let me know.  If the  understanding it, I hope  MR. GRANT  PLANT  GRANT  THE  MR.  I want my objection translated to the witness  before —  By all means.  Could you translate — I objected to the question,  it was vague and unclear.  And the procedure —  translate this, the procedure is because there is no  judge here that Mr. Plant does not wish to rephrase  the question, he can still ask it.  And you can tell  him if you have any problems with it.  INTERPRETER:   Okay.  What was the question?  PLANT: 300  S. Williams (For Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam By Mr. Plant  1 Q  Well, were there any difficulties with the --  2 your recollection of the what happened in 1971, when  3 Joe Daniels was elected?  There was an election and  4 Joe Daniels was elected chief of the band.  5 A  I have known Joe for so many years and he was — he  6 has been elected throughout the years at the — in  7 Gitwing_ax_ law, and I have known Joe for all these  8 years and I was a councillor for Richard Morgan and I  9 was with the band council for ten years.  I knew Joe  10 was bootlegging, like he always is even today, and  11 this is why I protested against him.  12 Q  Now I want to direct your attention now to a copy of a  13 letter which is one of a number of documents in the  14 Attorney-General of Canada's file, 11227.  Do you  15 recognize your signature on that photocopy there, Mr.  16 Williams? And please take a minute to read the letter  17 or have it translated, whichever you prefer.  18 MR. GRANT:  Well, are you just asking him if he can identify his  19 signature first?  Is that what you want him to do  20 first?  21 MR. PLANT:  Yes, I was concerned that you might have a concern  22 about that.  But let's do that first.  23 Q  And, did you send this letter, which is dated April  24 12, 1971, after the election of Joe Daniels?  25 A  Yes, it's me.  26 Q  It's —  27 THE INTERPRETER:  He asked me what does it say?  28 Q  Please read it then, if you like.  29 A  I can't see what it says there.  30 Q  I will read it in English.  "Dear Jack:  Sorry for the  31 inconvenience this protest may cause but I just can't  32 stand by and see our village wrecked as the result of  33 our election.  The wrong chief in our council can  34 wreck or village overnight.  Yours truly."  And then  35 there is the signature.  36 A  Yes, that's — this is true, and the reason for this  37 was that he was a bootlegger and he had no business  38 being in the council.  After this, there was another  39 election and he got in again because he has a lot of  40 family, Gitwingax. who all voted for him.  There was a  41 lot of turmoil in and hassles with the band council  42 when Joe Daniels was in and today it is going the  43 way it should because Glen Williams is in today.  44 Q  Who is the "Jack" to whom this letter is addressed?  45 A  Jack is probably from Ottawa.  I forgot.  It's been a  46 long time and I forgot where I — who Jack was.  47 Q  It was someone with the government? 301  S. Williams (For Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam By Mr. Plant  1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  MR,  MR,  MS  MR,  A  Q  A  PLANT  Yeah, this is one of the government workers, because I  was successful in doing this with Joe Daniels.  Your protest was successful in having the election set  aside, is that what you mean?  Yes.  I would like to mark this letter as the next  exhibit, a letter dated April 12, 1971, signed by  Stanley Williams.  (Exhibit 10 for identification;  12, 1971)  Letter dated April  MR. GRANT  MR. PLANT  MR. PLANT  I have got it as Exhibit 9.  I have the interrogatory map as Exhibit 9.  I was going to suggest we take a short adjournment  because we have been going for an hour.  (PROCEEDINGS ADJOURNED AND RESUMED FOLLOWING RECESS)  PLANT:  Q  Mr. Williams, Chief Gwis gyen, I want to ask you some  questions about the meeting at Canyon City with the  Nisga'a.  Perhaps you should direct his attention to that,  madam interpreter.  A  Yes.  Q  do you know which houses of the Nisga'a people claim  the upper Kiteen River, which you know as Xsi Gyehl  'Din?  It's the top name, the left hand column of  Exhibit 4.  KOENIGSBERG:  Things are spreading out from  to the west coast.  PLANT:  Q  A  the east coast  chief with the  Frank Calder  Herbert Morvin.  house.  Those  Xsi Gyehl 'Din.  I just know the Dim Xsaan is the high  Nisga'a people.  He lives in Aiyansh.  was there, he is in Guxsan house with  He is from Gitan'maaxs, Luutkudziiwas  were the two we were talking to.  Do you know the name of the house that Jimmy Gosnel,  James Gosnel is in the Nisga'a?  Yes, I know.  I don't know the house name but  that Dim Xsaan is the head chief of one house  that's  I know  and  the name that Jimmy Gosnel had.  I have a name that I want you to read, it's the  name that I have written on this  paper, H-L-E-E-K, but don't take  top  little piece of  my pronunciation, 302  S. Williams (For  Cross-exam By Mr  Plaintiffs)  Plant  1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  A  Q  MR. GRANT  MR. PLANT  MR. GRANT  MR. PLANT  MR. GRANT  MR. PLANT  MR. GRANT  MR. PLANT:  MR. GRANT:  A  MR. GRANT:  MR. PLANT:  Q  A  Q  A  Q  take that of Mi  will ask you if  It's — my unde  of which James  I don't live in  this name.  Is it your unde  that claims the  Just a second  you are saying  Exhibit 4-L —  I am only ref  name.  I understand,  mean Kiteen Riv  delineated or n  has indicated t  Kiteen, she is  I mean in the  but —  So whether it  But further s  Whether it' s  doesn't — are  name Hazelton o  question?  I think I am  doesn't make th  I just wanted  where you were  Where is he ref  Doesn't seem  this map.  ss Stevens or  that word is  the interpreter and  familiar with you.  rstanding is it's the name of the house  Gosnel is the chief?  that part, Txemsim, and I don't know  rstanding that it is Mr. Gosnel's house  upper Kiteen River area?  When you — I want to be clear, when  the upper Kiteen, I am referring to  erring there for the spelling of the  But when you say upper Kiteen do you  er around where the — that boundary is  orth of there? Because the interpreter  o the witness when he is saying upper  indicating north of that area.  So —  very general area of the upper Kiteen,  's the top —  outh.  the top of the map or below it  you referring to above or below the  n 4-L for the purposes of your  probably talking about below but it  at much difference.  to make sure the interpreter knew  referring to.  erring to?  to make much difference.  Somewhere on  But I am  Kiteen R  I do not  what tha  Well, wh  referrin  Is that  And I am  where Wi  Xsi Anx  know as  Gyehl 'D  know —  generally r  iver —  know when y  t is.  en I refer t  g to is Xsi  the one you  referring t  i Hlengwax h  Timiiyit, an  Xsi lax Tsel  in. Now, wh  whether you  eferring to that part of the  ou refer to Kiteen, I don't know  o Kiteen, what I should really be  Gyehl 'Din?  are referring to, Xsi Gyehl 'Din?  o that part of Xsi Gyehl 'Din  as a territory which you know as  d Lelt has a territory which you  asgwit, which goes down to Xsi  at I want to know is whether you  know it's Jimmy Gosnel's house 303  S. Williams (For  Cross-exam By Mr  Plaintiffs)  , Plant  2  2  3  4  5  6  7  6  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  MR. GRANT  MR. PLANT  MR. GRANT  MR. PLANT  A  n  MR. GRANT  MR. PLANT:  Q  A  Q  Q  A  that cl  it?  The a  Yes,  On Ex  Appro  Don't b  My prob  I under  'Din, n  want to  Gosnel'  That'  built-i  claimin  Exhibit  should  Because  Exhibit  what th  I don't  aims that, that says that that area belongs to  rea of Lelt and Wii  what I am —  hibit 4-L and 4-R?  ximately.  ang your head on th  lem is I am not sur  stand it to be a cl  ear the head waters  know whether you k  s house that claims  s why I was asking  n in assumption tha  g either the area o  4-R, and maybe you  ask the witness if  that's why I was r  4-L, if you are al  e witness has descr  think it's clear f  Hlengwax?  e table again.  e where their cla  aim in the area o  of Xsi Gyehl 'Di  now whether it's  that particular  because your ques  t the Nisga'a hou  f 4-L, Exhibit 4-  should ask, befo  they do claim in  eferring you to t  ready talking abo  ibed as Nisga'a t  rom your question  im is.  But  f Xsi Gyehl  n.  And I  Jimmy  area?  tion has a  se is  L or  re, you  that area,  he part of  ut the —  erritory.  s.  Let me ask you this, Chief Gwis gyen, are you aware of  where the Nisga'a claim is on Xsi Gyehl 'Din?  Yes, I know.  And do you know how far up the river, Kiteen River, it  extends, the claim extends?  What Gosnel said was the — where the headwaters come  from the mountain, this is their territory.  The  waters that start from that mountain.  This is their  territory.  But this is not true, these territories  have been passed on from generation to generation.  Which mountain are you referring to?  This is Frank Calder's claim, the water starts at Gwi  Tsoo and then goes down to the waters of Xsi lax  tselasgwit.   The waters of Gwi Tsoo and Xsi lax  tselasgwit meet and they both go into the waters of  Xsi Gyehl 'Din, it goes as far as the Xsi Anx. Timiiyit  comes from, runs in.   Gosnel's claim was also the An  lakhl maaxws and down to Tsi'm an makhl and then it  goes to Xsi An_x Timiiyit, and the — and it goes down  and runs into xsi Gyehl 'Din.  This is where the  boundary of Gitwingax. starts with Tooxensxw to Xsi  Gyehl 'Din.  Then it goes along to Xsi Gyehl 'Din and  that is the boundary to Kitwancool.  Tooxensxw owns  the the other part of the mountain, the water that's  running there belongs to Gunuu.  I have no business 304  S. Williams (For Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam By Mr. Plant  i  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  MR  Q  A  Q  A  PLANT  mentioning thi  tell the court  claim, Nisga'a  Is Gunuu a chi  Yes, he is the  Now — thank y  subject again  gwin Biiyoosxw  hlengwax. An  affidavit date  you can identi  Yes, that's mi  : I would ask  exhibit, Exhib  s Kitwancool territory.  I just want to  where the waters run and where the  claim is.  ef of the Kitwancool?  chief of Xamlaxyeltxw's house,  ou for that.  I now want to change the  and ask you some questions about the Xsu  it territory which belongs to Wii  d first I want to put in front of you an  d November 23rd, 1987.  And ask you if  fy your signature on the last page?  ne.  that that document be marked as the next  it 11.  MR. GRANT  MR. PLANT  MR. GRANT  MR. PLANT  (EXHIBIT 11 FOR IDENTIFICATION:  AFFIDAVIT OF STANLEY  WILLIAMS DATED NOVEMBER 23, 1987)  The translation affidavit you are proposing to put?  Yes.  Why don't we make it 11-A and 11-B?  I think we numbered the translation affidavit as a  separate exhibit number in the case of the first  affidavit.  So we have an Exhibit 2 and 3.  So shall  we have it 11 and 12?  MR. GRANT:  That's fine.  (EXHIBIT 12 FOR IDENTIFICATION:  AFFIDAVIT OF ALICE  SAMPSON DATED NOVEMBER 23, 1987)  MR. PLANT:  Marking as Exhibit 12 an affi  Sampson, who is the interpreter  also dated November 23rd, 1987.  MR. GRANT:  And she can identify it.  MR. PLANT:  Maybe we better make sure tha  your signature, madam interpret  THE INTERPRETER:  It is.  Q  Now, Chief Gwis gyen, I would 1  attention to section J.  of thi  11.  And beginning with paragra  THE INTERPRETER:  What page is that, page  MR. PLANT:  17.  And rather than reading  the interpreter to translate th  paragraph 66 and I then want to  it.  A  Yes, Wii Hlengwax's territory,  Q  You say you have obtained permi  davit sworn by Alice  in these proceedings,  t she can.  er?  That is  ike to direct your  s affidavit, Exhibit  ph 66, and —  number?  it myself, I would ask  e first sentence of  ask a question about  Xsu gwin Biiyoosxwit.  ssion from Wii Hlengwax 305  S. Williams (For Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam By Mr. Plant  1 to describe and speak of this territory.  When did you  2 obtain this permission?  3 A  He has always visiting me at our house.  4 Q  Did he come to visit you on an occasion to give you  5 permission to speak about his territories in this  6 court case?  7 A  Yes, this is the reason why he came to see me, he  8 wanted me to describe where the territory is and I  9 know where that territory is.  10 Q  Did he tell you why he wanted you to describe this  11 territory?  12 A  He did not know some parts of his own territory and  13 this is what I was telling him.  And he is always  14 working at the mill.  15 Q  Now, in the second sentence —  16 MR. GRANT:  Just for the record, that — what you have read so  17 far is identical to paragraph 66 in Exhibit 2.  18 MR. PLANT:  19 Q  In the second sentence of paragraph 66, you say:  20 "This territory..."  referring to Xsugwin Biiyoosxwit,  21 "... is located on the north side of the Skeena, 16  22 miles west of the village of Gitwing_ax_."  23 A  Yes, that's right.  24 Q  How did you determine that distance?  25 A  Our people have no — they don't use miles, and the  26 reason why I said this was when I was working on  27 the — with the CN, I know it was 16 miles from the  28 village.  29 Q  What kind of work did you do with the CN?  30 A  1 was in the section crew.  31 Q  In paragraph 67 you refer to Charles Smith by a name  32 that I haven't heard before, and I will have to ask  33 for the interpreter's assistance in pronouncing that  34 name.  It's spelled T-X-A-L-G-Y-O-M, L-A-X-H-A-A.  35 A  Txalgyom laxhaa.  36 Q  Is that a name held by Charles Smith?  37 A  Yes, it's from the Wolf Clan and it's an Amnigwootxw.  38 A  This was the name that was given to Charles Smith from  39 the house of Axtii hiikw, because all of the children  40 were small and there was no one to take the name so  41 this was given to him through his father from the  42 house of Axtii hiikw.  After Charles died, his son,  43 David Smith, held this name, his grandchild, and they  44 were waiting for the other house members to grow and  45 this is after, after this when they were old enough,  46 David gave the name back to that house.  Axtii hiikw  47 house. 306  S. Williams (For  Cross-exam By Mr  Plaintiffs)  Plant  1  Q  2  3  4  A  5  6  Q  7  A  8  Q  9  A  10  Q  11  A  12  13  Q  14  A  15  Q  16  17  18  19  20  THE TRANS  21  Q  22  A  23  Q  24  25  A  26  27  Q  28  29  30  31  A  32  Q  33  34  A  35  36  Q  37  38  MR. GRANT  39  40  MR. PLANT  41  Q  42  A  43  Q  44  45  46  A  47  gran  his  And you said, and  translation, you  and then his  Yes, he said  after.  So David was  Hm-hmm.  Now, did Charles  Yes.  And that's number 446  this may be a mistake in the  said initially that David was the son  dchild.  son first and then he said grandchild  Charles's grandchild?  Smith also hold the name Bii lax ha?  After the childre  were given back t  Did Charles hold  Yes.  Now, in paragraph  you refer to Math  spelling in the a  as — probably no  are using.  ,ATOR: It's 522.  Did Mathias Brigh  Yes.  And did he also h  point in his life  Yes, after the —  took Wii Hlengwax  This part of your  Xsugwin Biiyoosxw  territory with Ch  occasion?  Yes, we travelled  And was this whil  Tenimgyet's terri  I really know thi  kind of rocks you  I think what you  well?  Like the back o  say.  And is this the t  Yes, Genim gitwil  And as I understa  Hlengwax's territ  territory; is tha  The trail starts  goes to Luu'min B  n were old enough, all these names  o them.  both of the names at the same time?  67, I. am referring to Exhibit 11,  ias Bright as Ax goof, and the  ffidavit is probably not the same  t the same as the spelling that you  t hold that name in his lifetime?  old the name Wii Hlengwax at some  •>  Wii Hlengwax died, Mathias Bright  affidavit, Gwis gyen, refers to the  it territory, did you travel in this  arles Smith on more than one  back and forth.  e you were travelling towards  tory?  s place and I could tell you what  are going to come upon,  mean is that you know that trail very  f his hand, I think he is trying to  rail which is called Genim gitwiltxw?  txw is the name of the trail there.  nd it, the trail passes through Wii  ory on the way to Tenimgyet*s  t right?  from the Skeena River and then it  iiyoosxwit, which is the name where 307  S. Williams (For  Cross-exam By Mr  Plaintiffs)  , Plant  1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  MR. PLANT  MR. GRANT  MR. PLANT  MR,  MR,  MR.  GRANT  PLANT  GRANT  MR. PLANT  state, and I  pause in any  it goes up to and then Genim git wilt.  Then it goes  up to Tenimgyet.  And then it gets to Gan Tsaltxwit,  and this is where this is Tenimgyet's territory where  it comes out.  It goes up and then this it gets to  Ansa gan akxws.  It goes down to where the cabins of  Tenimgyet are.  I have no business talking about  Tenimgyet's territory, he has told about his territory  and everything he has said is true.  I think we are going to have to pause for a minute  to make sure the reporter has the names of the various  places.  I just want to  were proposing a  interrupt your cross, just in  Exhibit 2 it appears that paragraph 185 of Exhibit  is not in Exhibit 11.  And I just want to advise  counsel for the record that any such absence of that  paragraph in Exhibit 11 is through inadvertence.  I  was not present at the time of the swearing of Exhibit  11, as can be seen, that paragraph is one which,  paragraph 185 of Exhibit 2 was one which was to  expedite, for the sake of counsel and for the court,  locations in the affidavit so they would make some  sense.  And those mileages and other things are, I  see, in Exhibit 11 in some places.  But I would advise  counsel and would advise the court, that it was never  that paragraph from Exhibit  should be read in that  don't want to, since  event, I didn't want  reviewing Exhibit 11  you  to  and  2  to exclude  Exhibit 11  should be  MR. GRANT  the intention  11. And that  context.  What you are saying is that Exhibit 11  read as if it contained paragraph 185?  Yes.  Yes, I understand.  I just want to say that to avoid cross-examination,  extensive cross-examination in areas which paragraph  185 deals with.  Well, this all happened at a time following or  around commission of Richard Benson, this being the  emergence of paragraph 185 in its present form, and I  don't have any difficulty with reading the affidavit,  Exhibit 11, in that way, although I still think it's  open to me to identify those situations where the  source of information about mileages is the witness'  own knowledge or some other person.  Yes, I just don't want the witness to be taken  advantage of because that paragraph had not yet been  formulated for some reason, in Exhibit 11. 308  S. Williams (For Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam By Mr. Plant  1 MR. PLANT:  Sure.  2 Q  Now, because of something that you said in your last  3 answer, Chief Gwis gyen, I have to ask you a question  4 which I hope will clear it up in my mind.  When the  5 trail that you have told us you know like the back of  6 your hand, when that trial is passing through Wii  7 Hlengwax's territory, is it known as Genim Gitwitt? In  8 other words, is that the name of the trail at that  9 point?  10 A  Yes, it is that.  11 Q  When you travelled on that trail with Charles Smith,  12 did you hunt along the trail as you were moving along  13 the trail?  14 A  No.  We only use the trail to get to Tenimgyet's  15 territory.  We are not the only ones that use the  16 trail, Wii Hlengwax uses it to go to Gwi ts'oo and  17 Lelt used that trail also to go to Xsi lax  18 ts ' ilaasxwit.  19 Q  Would I be correct in assuming that while you have the  20 right of travel, the right of passage on the trail,  21 that if you wanted to hunt while you were travelling  22 on the trail, you would have to have Wii Hlengwax's  23 permission?  24 A  We don't go there to hunt on Wii Hlengwax's territory,  25 we go there to go to our own territory, to the  26 territory of Tenimgyet and then the people, our people  27 know where their territory is and that's where they  28 go.  And if we wanted to hunt there, we would go to  29 Wii Hlengwax and ask his permission.  30 Q  Have you at any time in your life hunted or trapped on  31 Wii Hlengwax's or Xsugwin Biiyoosxwit's territory?  32 A  No.  33 Q  Have you travelled on the trail Genim Gitwilt since  34 Charles Smith passed away?  35 A  Yes, I went there.  I went to show Tenimgyet their  36 territory and I noticed that territory, Tenimgyet's  37 territory.  38 Q  Which person is it that you are referring to who held  39 the name Tenimgyet?  By that I mean in the last answer  40 you said you went to show Tenimgyet your territory,  41 who was it you showed the territory to?  42 A  Yes, I — it's the present Tenimgyet, Arthur Matthews  43 Jr. and I showed him this territory because I did not  44 know very much.  We camped and then I explained  45 everything to him.  I showed him the names, where the  46 boundaries, told him where the boundaries were and the  47 names of the — 309  S. Williams (For Plaintiffs  Cross-exam By Mr. Plant  1 Q  Where did you camp?  2 A  We camped at the Luu'min xsugwin Biiyoosxwit and we  3 camped at Ansagan lakxws and we camped at their own  4 place at Xsi ama T'aa'ldit.  5 Q  Now, I would like you, madam interpreter, to read  6 paragraph 68 of Exhibit 11 without the parentheses,  7 because of what Mr. Grant has said.  And after you  8 have read it to ask you, Chief Gwis gyen, whether the  9 description of the boundary of the Xsugwin  10 Biiyoosxwit's territory in this paragraph is correct?  11 THE INTERPRETER:  What do you mean without the parentheses?  You  12 don't want me to read the word in the parentheses?  13 Q  Yes.  14 MR. GRANT:  Just a moment.  It appears that, just for the  15 translation, that there is a typographical error, it  16 says three miles downstream for where, and that should  17 probably be from where.  Just so that it makes sense.  18 MR. PLANT:  19 Q  Yes.  You see that in the first line?  20 THE INTERPRETER:  Is that about "Starting about three..."?  21 MR. PLANT:  22 Q  It says "Starting about three miles downstream..."  23 and the next word is for and I think it should be  24 from, from where.  So when you are translating that,  25 translate that word as if it had read from.  26 A   It's Haa Laltxwit is supposed to be Haa helpwit.  27 Q  Haa Laltxwit is supposed to be —  28 A  Haa helpwit should be Haa Hlelpwit.  There is the  29 Skeena River here and this is where Xsugwin  30 Biiyoosxwit comes into the Skeena.  It goes down  31 the — to the tunnel, the CN tunnel.  This is where  32 the boundary is.  It goes up the mountain, and it goes  33 up to the top of Win tkel Bakxw, the name of that  34 place is Wii gwantxws hoojin, it goes up and then it  35 comes down, it goes up to Gan ts'eltxwit on this side  36 of Gan ts'eltxwit.  37 MR. GRANT:  You are indicating the right-hand side?  38 A  Hm-hmm, it goes on this side, on top of the mountain.  39 MR. GRANT:  Indicating the right-hand side?  40 A  It turns.  41 MR. GRANT:  It turns towards the right?  42 A  To the top of the mountain.  And it comes to the part  43 called Sagat and then it goes down to the Skeena, it  44 gets to Cedarvale, which is this place is known as An  45 laks huu yoo.  This is where the boundary is and this  46 is An laks huu yoo and this is Wii Hlengwax's  47 boundary.   There is — Guxsan has a small territory 310  S. Williams (For Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam By Mr. Plant  1 inside this, which is known as Win tk'el bakxw, they  2 call this Win tk'el bakxw, they call this, the side of  3 the mountain, Win gwantxws hoojin and that's all that  4 Sagat has.  5 MR. GRANT:  Can I just clarify at the end there, you say they  6 called the top of this mountain Win gwantxws hoojin,  7 is that the mountain? Just before he had said Guxsan  8 has a territory called Win tk'el Bakxw?  9 A  Yes.  10 MR. GRANT:  When you say they call this mountain Win Tk'el  11 Bakxw, is that part of the Gwis gyen area?  12 A  No, this mountain belongs to Wii Hlengwax and it's  13 above this mountain that the bottom part is Gwis gyen  14 and has been Guxsan and An tk'el Bakxw.  15 Q  Beg your pardon?  16 A  Nobody can move that mountain.  It's still there.  17 Q  Now, madam interpreter, had you finished reading  18 paragraph 68 when —  19 THE INTERPRETER:  Yes, I did, and he says that's why I explained  20 it.  21 Q  I am sorry, he said what?  22 THE INTERPRETER:  I finished reading it and then he said, okay,  23 I will say it again.  24 Q  Was the description which the interpreter read to you,  25 Chief Gwis gyen, was that a correct description of the  26 boundary of Wii Hlengwax territory?  27 MR. GRANT:  And I want the witness to know that the reference  28 you are making was to the affidavit sworn in November.  29 MR. PLANT:  Fine.  But the the question is:  30 Q  Was the description that was read to you by the  31 interpreter correct?  32 A  Yes, that's right.  33 Q  Now —  34 MR. GRANT:  Just a moment.  Did you translate that to him that  35 that was from the affidavit of November 1987?  36 THE INTERPRETER:  Hm-hmm.  37 MR. PLANT:  38 Q  I would like you to have before you tab J. of Exhibit  39 4.  You don't have that with you?  4 0 MR. GRANT:  No, I don't.  41 MR. PLANT:  Well this will make it a little harder to ask these  42 questions.  Thank you very much.  43 Q  Tab J., Chief Gwis gyen, is a map of the Xsugwin  44 Biiyoosxwit territory and I am not sure — I am not  45 sure this small territory, this small territory of  46 Guxsan is, is it upstream or downstream?  47 A  Okay.  The Guxsan boundary starts close to where the 311  S. Williams (For  Cross-exam By Mr  Plaintiffs)  , Plant  1 tracks are, then it goes up and it gets to  2 rivers meet, Ts'im an loots'.  3 A   It's below the Ts'im an loots', below the  4 as Ts'im an loots', this is where the Guxs  5 is.  It's a small territory.  6 Q  Does Guxsan's territory go up to the Skeen  7 up higher in the hills?  8 A  It's on the upper part, Wii Hlengwax owns  9 part.   It's just a small part inside Wii  10 territory.  This is the reason I have been  11 my sleep because of these questions.  12 MR. GRANT:  The record — for the record, Exhibit 4-  13 drawn as instructed, as this witness went  14 refer to Antgal Bakw and there is also the  15 in brackets under it.  16 MR. PLANT:  Actually, I haven't heard him say Antgal  17 have heard him say Wii Hlengwax.   But I t  18 his last answer he was referring to Ts'im  19 which is also on Exhibit J.  20 Q  And is Guxsan's territory this small terri  21 you have been describing, is that near Ts'  22 loots'?  23 A  It doesn't get there, it's below it, a lit  24 Q  Is it closer to, if you are thinking of Ce  25 it — well let's not do it that way.  26 A  That's why my wife hit me in the jaw last  27 talk and talk about the same place, and th  28 am pretty near going crazy in my sleep.  29 Q  Well let me ask you this, it might be a br  30 sort.  What is this territory of Guxsan's  31 A  They hunt goats up the mountain, on top.  32 lot of goats there.  33 Q  Now, in paragraph 69 of Exhibit 11, the la  34 reads:  "Tenimgyet, Art Mathews Jr., also  35 area within this territory."  And we are t  36 about Wii Hlengwax's Xsugwin Biiyoosxwit t  37 "also owns a small area within this territ  38 Tsalwit known as..."  39 MR. GRANT:  Sorry, what —  40 MR. PLANT:  And I don't think I should pronounce it,  41 Gitwiltxw.  42 MR. GRANT:  The last paragraph?  43 MR. PLANT:  Yes.  44 A  Okay.  This, the trail at Tenimgyet's terr  45 gwin Biiyoosxwit is known as Hahl Genim Gi  46 the one in Wii Hlengwax's territory is Bax  47 Gitwiltxw.  It is the same trail, but diff  where the  creek known  an territory  a or is it  the lower  Hlengwax's  talking in  J, which was  along, does  name Guxsan  Bakw, I  hink it's in  an loots',  tory that  im an  tie below,  darvale, is  night, you  at's why I  eak of some  used for?  There is a  st sentence  owns a small  alking now  erritory,  ory at Tsim  Bax Genim  itory at Xsu  twiltxw and  Genim  erent names. 312  S. Williams (For Plaintiffs  Cross-exam By Mr. Plant  1 One is Bax and the others Hahl.  The reason why this  2 trail is known as Bax Genim Gitwiltxw is that Bax is  3 going up and this trail is going up, up the trail,  4 that means Bax in our language.  And Hahl means going  5 on the edges of that trail.   This is how we explain  6 to our own people, if we meet each other on the road  7 and somebody would ask us where did you meet them,  8 this is how we explain to them where we meet each  9 others on the road.  10 Q  Does Tsim Tsaltwit refer to a place in Wii Hlengwax's  11 territory that belongs to Tenimgyet?  12 A  It's the Tsim Tsaltwit is always Tenimgyet's  13 territory.  There is one trail that goes towards  14 Tenimgyet's territory at Ts'ihl Gwellii the Wii  15 Hlengwax to Gwi Ts'oo and Lelt goes to Xsi lax  16 Ts'ilaasxwit and they all use one trail.  17 Q  In paragraph 71 of Exhibit 11, and this may be more  18 appropriately a question directed to you, madam  19 interpreter, the last sentence reads:  "He told me  20 that throughout that time..."  and he being Mathias  21 Bright, "He told me that throughout that time the  22 members of the house of Wii Hlengwax had owned,  23 harvested and looked after the Xsugwin Biiyoosxwit  24 territory from generation to generation."  25 My question is:  What is the Gitksan word which has  26 been translated as harvested?  27 THE INTERPRETER:  I, when I translate that I always use — it's  28 a sentence, Ndaat wila ama gyaa'tdiit, that means how  29 do they look after their territory.  30 MR. PLANT:  Thank you.  I will go for a few minutes, because I  31 have a few more questions on this paragraph.  32 Q  In paragraph 72 you say:  "I have heard Wii Hlengwax's  33 Xsugwin Biiyoosxwit territory described in the Gitksan  34 feast as being owned by the House of Wii Hlengwax."  35 Can you tell me when you have heard the Xsugwin  36 Biiyoosxwit territory described at a feast?  37 A  When we have a big — when Wii Hlengwax has a big  38 feast, if they have a big feast, then he describes his  39 territory.  And if there is a mistake being made, then  40 one of the people will -- the chief, one of the chief  41 will tell Wii Hlengwax that he is wrong in saying  42 that, that he has made a mistake in saying that.  This  43 is the law of the Aluugigyet.  44 Q  Now, can you —  45 A  If a mistake has been made, one of the head chiefs  46 would stand up and say that the mistake has been made.  47 They are not mad at each others, they are just saying 313  S. Williams (For Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam By Mr. Plant  1 that a mistake has been made.  2 Q  Can you recall the last time when Wii Hlengwax had a  3 big feast at which the territory was described?  4 A   In the ancient times, it was not for a chief to speak  5 out.  He has a spokesperson beside him and this is the  6 person that speaks for the chief.  And each time there  7 would be a successor for Wii Hlengwax then these  8 boundaries are described.  And they stand by these  9 spokesperson.  10 MR. PLANT:  I propose we adjourn now for lunch.  11 MR. GRANT:  I if I could say something before we go off the  12 record.  13 I would suggest, and I was just going to note, you  14 may wish to return to that last question after the  15 adjournment.  I was just going to recommend that we  16 adjourn because it appears to me that the witness was  17 quite tired and —  18 MR. PLANT: Yes, that's why I suggested we break.  19 MR. GRANT:  And you may want to return to that question.  20  21 (PROCEEDINGS ADJOURNED FOR LUNCH AND RESUMED AGAIN AT 1:30 P.M.)  22  23 MR. PLANT:  24 Q  Chief Gwis gyen, when you were giving your evidence in  25 answer to Mr. Grant's questions, you told us of an  26 incident at a feast where you had corrected an adaawk  27 which was being told by Miles Gogag, whose name was  28 Joojt, and I have some questions about that.  29 A  Yes, I remember it.  I did correct him.  30 Q  Could you tell me, please, what clan Miles is from?  31 A  He is Gisk'aast.  32 Q  Does Jook^ have his own house or does that name belong  33 to someone else's house?  34 A  He is the house of Wiigyet.  35 Q  The adaawk which you corrected, was it an adaawk  36 describing the territory or was it a history of the  37 house?  38 A  No, they do not have any territory.  The adaawk  39 belongs in our house.  40 MR. GRANT:  Do you have a page reference for that?  41 MR. PLANT:  No, I don't.  I am sorry.  42 Q  Can you recall any incidents at a feast where one  43 chief corrected a description of territories given by  44 another chief?  45 A  It happens each time when there is a feast, the  46 territory is put out where the boundaries are and if  47 there is a mistake being made, then one of the head 314  1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  S. Williams (For Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam By Mr. Plant  chiefs will stand up and correct this.  Q  Can you recall an incident where a mistake was made  and corrected in the description of territories?  A  First he said, I remember that happened, I stood up  and I told Joo_k that he was wrong about the adaawk.  And then I explained to him that we were talking about  the boundaries and he said this happens a lot of times  if a mistake has been made by a chief about the  boundaries, then the other chief that noticed this  mistake will stand up and tell them.  Q  Can you give me an example of when this has occurred?  A  Jook_ made a mistake about the adaawk and this was at  the death of Magnus Turner.  I stood up and I told him  that there was a mistake being made by him.  This  adaawk starts at T'am La_x amit and the ladies used to  go to, which is known now as Seeley Lake, this lake  belongs to Spookw.  This is where there was maple  trees and this is where the ladies used to go to get  the maple barks.  There has been a lot of women that  went there and never returned and at one time these  two women from Gwis gyen's house went and they didn't  return.  So Ts'uu eek and Dii aa wilp went to  investigate.  They waited around the area where the  women disappeared and all of a sudden they seen this  white bear -- they seen the Mediigam ts'uu'wiiaks and  they came towards these two people, the Dii aa wilp  and the Ts'uu eek and these two men shot them with  arrows on the sides.  They killed this Mediigam  ts'uu'wiiaks and they took this Mediigam ts'uu'wiiaks  towards the village of Temlaham and this was the  creature that was killing all the women off.  They  cleaned the bear and they took the hide off and Gwis  gyen took the hide and used it, he took it as his  crest and it was called Gwiis luu sinxsxw.  Gwis gyen  used this hide as a blanket when he is invited to a  Feast House.  And their crest is the body of the  Mediigam ts'uu'wiiaks.  Wiigyet did not have a crest  so Gwis gyen gave the body to Wiigyet to use as a  crest.  And they still use this today.  And this is  where Jook_ made a mistake, when he said that the women  were sitting at the back of this Mediigam ts'uu'wiiaks  and the women told this Mediigam ts'uu'wiiaks, told  them don't kill the Mediigam ts'uu'wiiaks, because he  will take us home.  This is the part that was not  right.  This, he made a mistake here.  So what I did  is I stood up and I explained that this was our adaawk  and that a mistake was made and I explained to them 315  S. Williams (For Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam By Mr. Plant  1 that my grandfather gave the body of the Mediigam  2 ts'uu'wiiaks to Wiigyet because he didn't have any  3 crest.  4 Q  What is the procedure after a correction is made, do  5 the other chiefs then stand up and say that they agree  6 with you or do they remain silent and indicate their  7 agreement by silence?  8 A  Yes, I am one of the people that helped out at this  9 feast.  After I told them that, told them that Jook_  10 made a mistake and then the chiefs take turns standing  11 up and talking and they said what I said was true.  12 Q  Thank you.  13 I would now like to ask you some questions about  14 territory which you refer to in your affidavit,  15 Exhibit 2, as the 'Wii tax_ territory.  16 THE TRANSLATOR:  Page 34.  17 MR. GRANT  18 MR. PLANT  19 MR. GRANT  Which, Exhibit 2?  Yes.  This is my copy.  20 THE WITNESS:  Excuse me, Mr. Plant, this morning I made a  21 mistake about the name Wiigyet and I was mixing up  22 with another name, Tk'al gyoo'm laxha.  That's a  23 Gisk'aast name.  24 MR. PLANT:  25 Q  Did Charles Smith have the name Tk'al gyoo'm laxha  26 when he was in Gitsilis, did Charles Smith every hold  27 that name?  28 A  He hold it and when he take that — just say Biilaxha.  29 That's Lax Gibuu name.  He hold that name when the  30 kids was small in his house.  31 MR. PLANT:  32 Q  I think I understand what you are saying.  I just want  33 to be sure, Tk'al gyoo'm Laxha is a Gitsilis last  34 name?  35 A  Yes.  36 Q  Of the Fireweed?  37 A  Yes.  38 Q  Thank you.  39 A  He is from 'Niista hukxw's house.  40 Q  Was Charles Smith from the same house as Walter Wright  41 originally?  42 A  That's Walter Wright's nephew.  43 MR. PLANT:  Do you have a copy of Exhibit 2 you can put before  44 the witness?  45 MR. GRANT:  Just for the record, because the witness has now  46 given that explanation to you, I want to advise you  47 that immediately after leaving here, I didn't meet 316  S. Williams (For Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam Bv Mr. Plant  1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  MR. PLANT  11  Q  12  13  14  A  15  Q  16  17  A  18  19  Q  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  A  29  30  31  32  33  34  0  35  36  A  37  Q  38  39  40  A  41  42  43  44  45  46  Q  47  A  with the witness over lunch hour, of course, but Mr.  Williams came up to me and said I have made a mistake  about — the name, and I said, well if you think you  have made a mistake you can explain that after lunch,  and I didn't have any further discussion about it with  him.  So he clearly had remembered it before he went  for — he had gone for lunch, I volunteered that at  that point, and I said whatever you want to say about  it, say it after the lunch hour.  Thank you for making that correction, Gwis gyen.  Now I want to ask you some questions about 'Wii Tax_  territory.  The first question I want to ask you does  this territory belong to Gwagl'lo or Duubisxw?  Duubisxw.  Is it correct to say that Gwagl'lo and Duubisxw are  separate houses but that they are close?  Duubisxw is from Mool'xan's house and Gwagl'lo has his  own house.  They are close together.  And I think the answer you have just given me explains  something I was going to ask you.  In paragraph 143  you say:  "I have obtained permission from Gwagl'lo, a  plaintiff in this action, to describe and speak in  respect of the Wii tax territory claimed by the House  of Duubisxw."  Why did you seek permission from  Gwagl'lo to speak of this territory? And maybe I  should say this, is it because Gwagl'lo is now looking  after Mool'xan's territory?  Gwagl'lo and Duubisxw and Mool'xan are very close and  Gwagl'lo is the one that knows about these things and  he is sort of a speaker, I guess you could say, about  these.  And also Duubisxw talked to me, Gideon  Johnson's wife, she want me to tell this in court  about their territory.  Can you recall whether Gideon Johnson's wife's name is  Evelyn?  Yes, it is.  When was it that you obtained permission from Ernest  Hyzims to describe and speak in respect to the 'Wii  T'ax territory?  They have been coming to my place and the same with  Gideon's wife, they want me to do this for them.  I  could only tell of the boundary of this territory, I  could not tell what is inside of this territory.  I  know it lies to the north.  Then it goes to the Copper  River to 'Wii T'ax.  Where does the boundary go after 'Wii T'ax?  It goes to the centre of the lake, right to the centre 317  S. Williams (For Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam By Mr. Plant  1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  MR,  MR  MR  MR  MR,  MR  MR  of the lake and it goes towards Copper River.  The  other side belongs to the Hagwilget or Wet'suwet'en.  GRANT:  The other side of what?  PLANT:  The other side of 'Wii T'ax?  A  The other side of 'Wii T'ax.  Q  Where does the boundary go after that?  A  It goes towards the Copper River.  It goes along the  Copper River and this is Gitsegukla boundary.  Q  Can you tell me where the boundary goes after it goes  along the Copper River?  A  It goes to the part of Xsiiwil masxw and it goes to  Xsansisnak then it goes towards where Walter Wright's  cabin is at the Copper River.  His house is on the  other side of the river.  Just a second.  Are you finished?  Yes.  GRANT  A  PLANT  Q  MR. GRANT  MS,  MR  MR,  MR  Did Gwagl'lo tell you why he wanted you to describe  the boundaries of his territory in this court case?  Just a second.  The terminology of the affidavit is  he has obtained permission from Gwagl'lo.  When you  move it to why he wanted, unless that may have been a  part of the answer that I didn't note.  KOENIGSBERG:  That was his evidence.  PLANT:  Yes, I think it was.  GRANT:  All I am saying is that I don't want you to move  into the area of solicitor-client privilege in terms  of things, independent terms of how certain evidence  is being proved in the case.  The evidence of  boundaries, which counsel have some input into  decisions on these matters.  PLANT:  My note is that Gwagl'lo and Gideon's wife have been  coming to my place.  They want me to do this for them.  And my question was, did they tell you why they wanted  you to do this for them?  Okay.  And I am here directing myself to Mr. Williams's  knowledge and the discussions they had, not from  anything that involves the lawyers.  Would you like me to ask the question again?  A  Gwagl'lo knows that I have knowledge of this  territory.  I used to travel on this territory with  Gwagl'lo, we used to trap there at 'Wii T'ax and this  is what he knows, that I know this territory and this  is why he ask me.  GRANT:  When you say he knows, referring to Gwagl'lo?  A  Gwagl'lo.  GRANT  PLANT 318  S. Williams (For Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam By Mr. Plant  1  MR.  PLANT  2  Q  3  4  5  A  6  7  C  8  A  9  10  11  Q  12  MR.  GRANT  13  14  15  16  MR.  PLANT  17  MR.  GRANT  18  MR.  PLANT  19  Q  20  21  22  23  A  24  Q  25  A  26  27  28  Q  29  30  A  31  0  32  33  34  35  A  36  37  38  Q  39  40  A  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  The person th  identified as  Williams?  Yes. Yes, af  this name, Du  Did David Wii  Yes, he did h  a lot of name  passed on yet  In your affid  Just before  record, I don  for the recor  house and the  In this cou  In the liti  at you travelled with, whom you  Duubisxw, was he also known as David  ter he died, Gideon Johnson's wife took  ubisxw.  liams also hold the name Saanoos?  ave this name.  Some of our chiefs have  s.  This is because the name is not  And they hold these names,  avit, paragraph 144, —  we go on, I want to set out for the  't have the pleadings in front of me but  d as I recall Gwagl'lo represents his  house of Duubisxw.  rt case,  gation, named plaintiff for both houses.  In paragraph 144, you say that you were "...instructed  about the 'Wii T'ax territory and its boundary by the  former Staa lo'op...".  Did David Williams also hold  that name in his life?  Yes, he was given that name when his uncle died.  And I forgot to ask you something —  He was holding this name and, Staa lo'op, he was  holding the name Staa lo'op, and today nobody has that  name, Staa lo'op.  I forgot to ask you the question a minute ago, is  Saanoos a name in the house of Duubisxw?  Yes, they are from the same house, Duubisxw.  I would like you to recall, try and recall, if you  can, the most recent occasion on which you have heard  or where you have heard the 'Wii T'ax territory  described at a feast?  It's probably about six years.  I am not — I forgot  how many years -- that — when Evelyn took this name  Duubisxw, the territory was described.  Who was the spokesperson who described the territory  at that feast or on that occasion?  Gwagl'lo was the person that spoke first and then the  rest of the chiefs spoke.  George Milton was the one,  I remember him talking, who was the Haak asxw and then  all the rest of the chiefs talked.  They agreed that  the territory belonged to Duubisxw and this territory  has not — has been the same in and will always be the  same and they all agreed on that and it was passed on  from generation to generation.  And it's just like me 319  S. Williams (For Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam By Mr. Plant  1 today, whatever I know, whatever I am told, I tell  2 this, I could not say something that I am not told  3 about and make a story up.  I couldn't do this.  What  4 I am doing is I am telling you what I was told, what  5 people tell me and what I know.  6 Q  Now, I want to ask you about another territory from  7 your affidavit and this time I want to ask you about a  8 territory that -- it's letter P., which you have  9 called Gasa lax. lo'obit territory.  10 MR. GRANT:  Page 26, eh?  11 MR. PLANT:  Of Exhibit 2, yes.  12 Q  Now, you say this is Gaxsbgabaxs territory, when did  13 you obtain Gertie Watson's permission to speak of this  14 territory?  15 A  She came to me and she asked me if I would represent  16 her in this court action, to tell where the boundaries  17 are and where it is and I know where the boundaries  18 are and she knows this.  19 Q  Did she tell you why she wanted you to represent her  20 and tell of the boundaries?  21 A  She knows that I know, I have — I know the territory,  22 and that she was — she wasn't able to speak about  23 this.  24 MR. GRANT:  I think the term represents — in a common form in  25 the term of what he is saying, and not in its legal  26 term.  27 MR. PLANT:  In the context for the limited purpose of describing  28 the boundaries is what I took it to be.  29 MR. GRANT:  Yes, it's in the context of that answer.  30 Gaxsbgabaxs I believe is a separately named plaintiff.  31 MR. PLANT:  32 Q  Now, in paragraph 109, the top of page 27 — I am  33 sorry, you told me a minute ago that Gertie Watson  34 wasn't able to describe the boundaries on Gasa lax  35 lo'obit, did she tell you why or do you know why she  36 is unable?  37 A   I didn't think I said describe, I said she could not  38 speak of it.  She could not speak about the  39 territories.  But it's all right.  40 MR. GRANT:  I want to make sure that you have the translation.  41 Maybe you should — Mr. Plant?  42 THE INTERPRETER: He used the word describe.  43 MR. PLANT:  He may not have.  My note only goes so far as she  44 wasn't able to —  45  46  47 320  S. Williams (For Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam By Mr. Plant  1  2 A   Speak about it.  3 MR. PLANT:  4 Q  She wasn't able to speak about it.  Do you know why  5 she wasn't able to speak about it or did she tell you?  6 A  First I like to say we kiss the Bible before we start  7 here and we don't twist the words.  Straight, that's  8 what the Bible said.  Is that right?  9 Q  Yes, I certainly think so.  I am proceeding on that  10 basis too.  So did she tell you why she wasn't able to  11 speak about it or do you know why?  12 A  Gasa lax lo'obit the territory and it goes up to the  13 east, there is a turn, it turns this way and about to  14 the north about three miles and then it goes to —  15 down towards Kitwancool.  It then doesn't go very far  16 from that point and then it goes down to Xsi amhl  17 lo'op and then it goes down to the edge of the Skeena.  18 It goes towards the Skeena River and then it goes  19 along the Skeena River on the track side, which is  20 known as Ansa Gawts.  It gets to Ansa Gawts.  And then  21 it goes up to Xsi wii luu hlabit and then it goes to  22 Lax behlit, then it turns and it goes to Ska loo'it  23 and it goes to Xsi T'ax and then back to ooxs holtgwit  24 and that's the boundary of Lax behlit.  25 MR. PLANT:  We will take a short adjournment while we change the  26 videotape.  27  28 (PROCEEDINGS ADJOURNED AND RESUMED FOLLOWING RECESS)  29  30 MR. PLANT:  31 Q  Chief Gwis gyen, in paragraph 109 of your affidavit,  32 Exhibit 2, you say that you were instructed about the  33 Gasa lax lo'obit territory by Sima diiks.  Did you  34 travel on this territory with Sima diiks?  35 A  Yes, Sima diiks and I travelled all over this  36 territory and when we were at Lax Behlit, at the Gasa  37 lax lo'obit territory, he told me the boundary.  And  38 when we pitched our tents under the tree, in the  39 evenings he would tell me about all this, what is on  40 the territory.  41 Q  Did this travelling take place when you were a young  42 man?  I am speaking specifically of the travels on the  43 Gasa lax lo'obit territory.  You have told us about  44 other territories.  45 A  Yes, I was young.  I am an old man now.  46 Q  Do you know what right Sima diiks had to be on the  47 Gasa lax lo'obit territory? 321  S. Williams (For  Cross-exam By Mr  Plaintiffs)  , Plant  1  A  2  3  4  5  6  7  Q  8  A  9  10  MR.  GRANT  11  12  MR.  PLANT  13  MR.  GRANT  14  15  MR.  PLANT  16  Q  17  18  19  20  A  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  Q  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  A  36  37  38  Q  39  40  A  41  42  Q  43  44  45  46  47  MR.  GRANT  He didn ' t go  Behlit terri  lo'obit. I  back and for  where the Ga  me.  And is Lax B  Yes, Lax Beh  two, Lax Beh  Just — is  then?  It makes n  :  I believe  travelled wi  on this territory, he went on the Lax  tory and he told me about the Gasa Lax  , when I travel, I have been travelling  th to Kitwancool and I always remember  sa Lax lo'obit is by what Sima diiks told  ehlit a place that belongs to Sima diiks?  lit and Sima diiks.  Sakxum higookx has  lit and Sima diiks.  he talking about Sakxum higookx now or  o difference to me.  he was talking about the person he  th.  up.  You have  that you called  the name Sakxum  That's — let's see if we can clear it  told us about travelling with a person  Sima diiks.  Did that person also have  higookx?  Yes, he had the name.  It's like, it's just like you  have your names, well, it's just like they have an  English name, he said, my English name, Stanley  Williams, and his Indian name Gwis gyen, and he has  two names.  It's just like Mr. Plant.  When my white  name, when I die, the white name of Stanley Williams  will disappear but my chief name Gwis gyen will always  be there.  I would like to refer you now paragraph 110 of Exhibit  11.  The very last line of page 27.  Actually, I am  starting five lines up.  Could you read, please, madam  interpreter, the last five lines on the page, on page  27, and then it's the first line to the end of the  sentence at the top of page 28.  And I am talking  about the passage that begins "Starting where..."  The Gasa lax lo'obit territory is where the road is  now, and there is a creek there that is known as Win  luu maaxsa gop.  Does does that creek, Win luu maaxsa gop, does it form  part of the boundary?  It is not the boundary of the Gasa lax lo'obit, it is  close to the boundary of Gasa lax lo'obit.  When I said the name of this creek it provoked  giggling and I am not sure if that was my  pronunciation or midafternoon giggles or if there is  something funny in the words in the English meaning of  the words Win luu maaxsa gop.  You keep saying it and you will find out. 322  1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  S. Williams (For Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam By Mr. Plant  MR,  MR.  MR,  MR.  MR.  PLANT:  Q  GRANT:  PLANT:  GRANT  PLANT  A  Q  Q  A  Q  A  Q  MR.  GRANT:  MR.  PLANT:  MR.  GRANT:  I will plunge right in with both feet.  You may regret it.  Well, I think I — I am wise enough now to know that  while my pronunciation provokes giggling it doesn't  provoke the outright laughter that has been done,  started by that word.  So we will just let that be our  little secret.  I do want to ask you about another creek on this  territory or it may be a boundary, Xsuwii luu hlabit,  and I am referring now to the last name on the bottom  of page 28.  What exhibit?  Of Exhibit 11, Xsuwii luu hlabit, do you see that?  Hm-hmm.  My question is, is that the same or are -- well, let  me put it this way:  Is there a creek on Gwis gyen's  territory that has the same name?  Yes, that's — I have a name like that on my  territory, and Gitwingax has their own Xsuwii luu  hlabit.  That's how, this is where Sima diiks boundary  lies.  You could describe it as Winna wedda yip,  that's the boundary line where they come together with  another boundary.  Winna wedda yip?  Winna wedda yip.  And the words Winna wedda means —  Coming together.  Coming together.  And that name, Xsu wiiluu hlabit is on both exhibit  4-A and Exhibit 4-P.  It's apparent it's different  locations from that locations from that.  Yes, it is quite apparent.  And the other point I wish to make, it appears you  have left it now, is that that reference to the creek,  Win luu maaxsa gop, is in Exhibit 11, and is not in  Exhibit 2, the updated affidavit.  MR.  THE  PLANT  Q  This may be a question more appropriately directed  towards you, madam interpreter, but what do the words  Xsuwii luu hlabit mean?  INTERPRETER:  That means the waters of the deep.  Or where  the water is deep.  Q  Now, I have some questions about your genealogy,  Exhibit 6.  Page one of your genealogy, on the  right-hand side, it shows that Audrey Jackson has  married Greg Lundquist; do you see that? 323  S. Williams (For  Cross-exam By Mr  Plaintiffs)  Plant  1  A  2  Q  3  A  4  0  5  A  6  Q  7  8  9  10  A  11  Q  12  13  14  15  A  16  17  Q  18  19  20  A  21  22  Q  23  A  24  25  Q  26  27  28  29  30  31  A  32  33  Q  34  35  A  36  37  38  Q  39  40  41  A  42  43  MR. GRANT  44  45  MR. PLANT  46  MR. GRANT  47  MR. PLANT  Yes.  Is Greg  No.  Is he a  Yes.  Now, on  Harris,  another  Lundquist a Gitksan?  white person?  page 2, it shows that one of the sons of Lily  Robert Jackson junior, has been adopted into  house and I don't have a note of the house  into which Robert Jackson junior was adopted?  In the House of Yal.  Do you know why this adoption took place?  First of  all — yes, I assume this was a Gitksan adoption, and  with that assumption in mind, can you tell me why  Robert Jackson junior was adopted into another house?  What they are looking to do with that, they are  getting Robert junior to succeed Yal.  Now, can, according to page 2 of the genealogy, Ken  Harris and Lily Harris have a sister Sylvia, is she  known as Sylvia Harris?  Yes, I know her.  She lives in Vancouver.  She was  adopted by Irene Harris as her own child.  Does Sylvia have children?  She has been gone to Vancouver for so many years and :  don't know if she does have children or not.  The genealogy shows, on page 2, that Lily Harris  appears to have married Robert Jackson senior and one  of their daughters has married — one of their  daughters named Marlene married Charles Clifton.  Was  Charles Clifton or is Charles Clifton a Gitksan  person?  He is from Hartley Bay and his father's name is Ed  Sorge.  And where did Marlene and Charles and their family  live?  The last time I  a year ago this  were working.  On page 33, Ken and Lily's sister, Mazel Harris,  appears to have had two husbands, James Smart and  Hans.  Was James smart a Gitksan?  Yes, he is a Gitksan from Hazelton.  He  now.  There should properly be a dot in the  that.  Do you have the exhibit?  Yes.  Let's put a dot in James Smart's triangle  seen them was in —  was in Port Edward,  a year ago, about  this is where they  Tom  has passed on  centre of 324  S. Williams (For Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam By Mr. Plant  1 A  Tom is a Haida Indian and he is from Massett.  2 Q  And Ken Karris and Lily and Sylvia and Mazel have  3 another sister, Molly Harris, who, according to the  4 genealogy, has married Ed Sorge?  5 A  Yes.  He is a white man.  6 Q  And where do Molly and Ed and their family live?  7 A  Ed has a job that he has to move all the time and I  8 don't know exactly where they are today.  9 Q  I meant to ask you where Mazel and Tom Hans live?  10 A  In Vancouver, in Chinatown.  11 Q  Now on page 4, off to the right-hand side, the  12 genealogy shows that Mary Ann Fowler and Edward Brown  13 had a daughter named Helen Robinson.  Is Helen still  14 alive or has she passed on?  15 A  They are both passed on.  Mary Ann Fowler and Helen  16 Robinson.  17 Q  Let's make a change to Exhibit 6 by putting a dot in  18 Helen Robinson's name.  19 I now want to ask you some questions about your —  20 some of the answers you gave to your interrogatories.  21 And I am placing a photocopy of your affidavit and  22 the attached answers in front of you and the first  23 question I wanted to ask you about was part of your  24 answer to question 18, and in question 18 you were  25 asked about —  26 MR. GRANT:  Page 3?  27 MR. PLANT:  Yes, the bottom of page 3.  You were asked about the  28 grandparents and your parents and children and grand  29 children and you were asked about the name of the  30 Gitksan clan and house of these people and in the  31 first paragraph of your answer you say that your  32 father's father — I will quote, "My father's father  33 belonged to the House of Wii Mugulsxw of Kispiox.  He  34 lived in Kispiox."  That's the end of the quotation.  35 Now, you told us that your father came from the House  36 of Wii Mugulsxw.  Did your father's father also come  37 from that house?  38 A  No, my father's father is of a different house.  It's  39 not Wii Mugulsxw's house.  40 Q  In question 13, you were asked, and this is near the  41 bottom of page 2, "What are the Gitksan names you have  42 held since birth?"  43 MR. GRANT:  Which question is it?  4 4    MR. PLANT:  13.  45 Q  "What are the Gitksan names you have held from birth  46 to the extent that your recollection permits, state  47 the time when and the manner in which you acquired 325  S. Williams (For Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam By Mr. Plant  1 each of these names."  And the first name you give  2 there is spelled D-e, t-o-o-g.  You say of that name,  3 "had this until I got older then passed it down to  4 another."  Do you remember what the first Gitksan name  5 was that you were given, Chief Gwis gyen?  6 MR. GRANT:  Maybe you should read all of this, as Mr. Plant did.  7 MR. PLANT:  Yes, please do.  Read question 13 and the answer sub  8 A.  9 A  De toog, and Dii t'ootxw that's my child's name.  I  10 was still using the name Dii t'ootxw when they put the  11 name Gwis gyen on me.  12 Q  In 113, sub B, you say, Gwis gyen, 14 years old when  13 my grandfather died.  And as I recall from your  14 evidence, you were ten when you took the name Gwis  15 gyen; is that correct?  16 A  This is correct, I am mixed up with the ten, ten years  17 old.  That 14 is the correct one.  I was using the  18 name Dii t'ootxw when they put Gwis gyen on me.  The  19 name Dii t'ootxw went to my brother Robert.  When my  20 uncle, James Ryan, died there was no one there to give  21 the name K'aat'im haayetsxw, so I held this name  22 K'aat'im haayetsxw.  The name Gwis gyen was supposed  23 to have gone to my uncle James Ryan, but he did not  24 want to take this because he was a minister in the  25 church, in St. Paul's church.  26 Q  And I should note that in the answer 13, sub C, Gwis  27 gyen, that's what you have said, that you took a third  28 name when your uncle James Ryan died.  I won't ask you  29 any more about that.  30 MR. GRANT:  I just want to be sure, did you get that third name?  31 THE TRANSLATOR:  Which one?  K'aat'im haayetsxw? Yes.  32 MS. KOENIGSBERG:  That's number 115, did you get that?  33 MR. PLANT:  34 Q  That's the name that Alvin Weget holds today?  35 A  Yes, I gave the name to Alvin Weget.  36 Q  On page four of your answers, question 22 reads:  37 "What is the nature of your authority as hereditary  38 chief of your house?"  And your answer is, "I sit in  39 the chief's chair in the feast hall.  I have a say in  40 how the fishing and trapline is used.  Members of the  41 house have to ask my permission before using any of my  42 territory."  And that answer was correct?  43 A  Yes, that's the law of the Aluugigyet.  44 MR. PLANT:  I propose that we adjourn now and — can we do that?  45 MR. GRANT:  We will adjourn until 9:30 tomorrow?  46 (PROCEEDINGS ADJOURNED TO 9:30 A. M., WEDNESDAY, APRIL 27,  47 1988) 326  S. Williams (For Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Ms. Koenigsberg  1 Hazelton, B. C.  2 April 27, 1988  3  4 STANLEY WILLIAMS, Resumed:  5  6    CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS. KOENIGSBERG:  7  8 MS. KOENIGSBERG:  This is the 11th day of the commission  9 evidence of Stanley Williams.  And my name is Marvyn  10 Koenigsberg, and I am one of the counsel for the  11 Government of Canada.  Mr. Plant will not be able to  12 be here today and so I will begin and hopefully  13 complete my cross-examination.  14 Q  Mr. Williams, Gwis gyen, I would like to ask you about  15 the subject of fishing.  You have told us already that  16 you were a commercial fisherman at the coast for many  17 years, isn't that right?  18 A  Yes.  19 Q  Do you still fish at the coast?  20 A  Yes.  21 Q  And throughout those years that you have fished at the  22 coast, you have obtained a fishing permit from the  23 government which allows you to fish commercially; is  24 that correct?  25 A  Yes, I bought it for $800 from the government.  26 Q  That was the last fishing permit that you had, the one  27 that you paid $800 for?  28 A  I have got my statement at my house and that's where  29 it is.  30 MR. GRANT:  I think if you are talking about the commercial  31 fishing, probably the terminology you should use is  32 licence.  I don't think there is a legal significance,  33 but there may be confusion on the record if you call  34 it a permit.  35 MS. KOENIGSBERG:  I don't think I will go back over it.  I think  36 the evidence is clear.  3 7    MR. GRANT:  No —  38 MS. KOENIGSBERG:  39 Q  From time to time in addition to the licences you have  40 obtained that allow you to commercially fish at the  41 coast, you have been given permits for food fishing;  42 is that correct?  43 A  Yes, I just got it for one day down the coast.  44 Q  When you say that you have obtained a permit for one  45 day at the coast, you mean each time that you get a  46 permit for food fishing at the coast, it may be for a  47 one day period? 327  S. Williams (For Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Ms. Koenigsberg  1 A  This is what the fisheries allowed us, one day.  2 Q  Yes.  But you have obtained these fishing permits for  3 food fishing at the coast many years, but for one day  4 at a time; is that right?  5 A  This I — whenever I want to fish for myself, I go to  6 the Prince Rupert office of the fisheries and this has  7 been going on for only four years now.  8 Q  Did you ever obtain a food fish permit for any other  9 area than the coast?  10 A  No, just down the coast.  11 Q  Just as an example, I am going to show you a food fish  12 permit — this one happens to be called a licence, Mr.  13 Grant — but in any event, I am showing you a  14 photocopy of a food fish permit or licence which is  15 dated for April 28th and 9th, at 6 p.m.  I believe  16 that covers a one day period.  17 MR. GRANT:  What year?  18 MS. KOENIGSBERG:  And it's 1983.  And it is our number 6489.  19 Q  I would like to show that to you, Mr. Williams, and  20 ask you if that's your signature at the bottom of it?  21 It says 1983 at about the middle.  22 A  Yes, that's my signature.  23  24 (EXHIBIT 13 FOR IDENTIFICATION:  INDIAN FOOD FISHING  25 LICENCE)  26  27 A  We do not need a permit to fish.  This is our way of  28 living and this is how we survive and whenever I want  29 to fish, I have the rights to fish because this was  30 our survival.  31 Q  I would like to —  32 A  It's the same with the animals that are on our  33 territory, we do not need permits to get these  34 animals, because this was our survival before the  35 white man came.  And when the white man came, they  36 pushed their laws on to us.  And we do not waste  37 anything that we kill, we always looked after it  38 because this is the survival of our people, and if  39 there is any bones or the heads of the animals that  40 are left, we make sure and we burn these things.  This  41 is the law of our people to do this.  This is the  42 advice that our grandfathers and our uncles have given  43 to us, the advice, how to treat the animals and the  44 fish that we get.  I seen what the sportsmen, the  45 white people, sports fishermen, did below Gitwinga^c.  46 They are supposed to be allowed three fish but they  47 took more than three and they keep the steelhead but 328  S. Williams (For Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Ms. Koenigsberg  1 they throw the coho away and this was a real waste.  2 Q  Chief Gwis gyen, I would like to ask you about other  3 members of your house and about their fishing permits.  4 Is Lome Campbell a member of your house?  5 A  Yes, he is in my house in the sense that he is a  6 member but he has his own living place and I have my  7 own living place and I don't really keep track of what  8 he is doing.  9 Q  Does he hold a chief's name in your house?  10 A  Yes, his name, Tk'el gumtxw.  11 THE TRANSLATOR:  90.  12 MR. GRANT:  Sorry?  13 THE TRANSLATOR:  Number 90.  14 MR. GRANT:  Do you want to give me Exhibit 13?  I am keeping  15 track of the exhibits, that's all.  16 MS. KOENIGSBERG:  You have got it, don't you?  17 MR. GRANT:  No, you have it.  It's at the bottom.  18 MS. KOENIGSBERG:  19 Q  To your knowledge, does Lome Campbell commercially  20 fish at the coast?  21 A  No, he doesn't fish there.  22 Q  Do you have any knowledge of his obtaining a  23 commercial fishing licence in 1985?  24 A  No, he doesn't.  I don't know.  25 Q  Do you know if Lome Campbell has obtained food fish  26 permits or licences?  27 A   No, I don't know.  28 Q  I would like to ask you now about Ken Harris.  Ken  29 Harris has a chief's name in your house; is that  30 correct?  31 A  Yes, his name is has been Hax bagwootxw.  32 Q  To your knowledge has Ken Harris been a commercial  33 fisherman at the coast?  34 A  I have never seen Ken fish down the coast yet.  He  35 works down in Rupert at that big mill in Port Edward  36 and he worked there for so many years.  37 Q  Is it fair to say you have no knowledge if he holds or  38 has ever applied for and obtained a commercial fishing  39 licence?  40 A  No.  It's none of my business if anybody buys a  41 licence.  42 q  Is Roger Johnson a member of your house?  43 A  Yes.  44 q  Does he hold a chief's name?  45 A  Yes, his name is 'Nii t'am Lax ooks.  46 MS. KOENIGSBERG:  That's number 89?  47 THE TRANSLATOR:  Hm-hmm. 329  S. Williams (For Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Ms. Koenigsberg  1 MS. KOENIGSBERG:  2 Q  To your knowledge, does he fish at the coast  3 commercially?  4 A  Yes, he fishes down there.  5 Q  And, to your knowledge, has he obtained a licence to  6 do so?  7 A  Yes, the government sold the licence to him.  8 Q  And, to your knowledge, does Roger Johnson fish for  9 food as well?  10 A  I don't know.  11 Q  Is George Williams a member of your house?  12 A  He is under the ground today now.  13 Q  He is deceased now, that's what you mean?  14 MR. GRANT:  I think so.  15 MS. KOENIGSBERG:  16 Q  He was a member of your house?  17 A  Yes.  18 Q  And did he hold a chief's name?  19 THE WITNESS:  I don't like it when you talk about the dead  20 people.  21 Q  I can appreciate that but I have to to ask the  22 questions about the members of your house.  23 A  Yes, he's got a chief's name but it slipped my mind.  24 Q  To your knowledge, did George fish commercially at the  25 coast?  26 A  Yes.  27 Q  And is Phillip Turner a member of your house?  28 A  What you going to do if George — can a dead man still  29 fish?  I would like to ask you if the dead man still  30 fish?  31 Q  Chief Gwis gyen, I have to ask you these questions so  32 that I can determine what members of your house of  33 whom you have knowledge, and for whom you are here  34 speaking —  35 A  I told you George is dead already and you still ask  36 me.  I don't like that.  You can ask me for live  37 people, not the dead man.  38 q  You will have to bear with me.  A person was a member  39 of your house --  40 A  Just ask me if he is member in my house but don't ask  41 me if he still fish.  42 Q  If I asked you if he still fished, I didn't mean to.  43 I just meant to ask you, and I would like to know if  44 any of these people commercially fished, to your  45 knowledge, when they were alive.  46 I think we were talking about Phillip Turner.  47 A  Phillip Turner doesn't fish any more. 330  S. Williams (For Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Ms. Koenigsberg  1 Q  And James Fowler?  2 A  James Fowler has been dead for about four years now.  3 Q  When he was alive, to your knowledge, did he fish  4 commercially?  5 A  Yes, he went fishing and he also worked in a mine.  6 Q  Now, Gwis gyen, in 1983 were you involved in putting  7 forward a petition to the Provincial Government  8 regarding fishing sites?  9 A  Who else was involved?  10 Q  A large number of persons from each of the Gitksan-  11 Wet'suwet'en groups of people known as bands in 1983.  12 And just if I can assist you with persons, along with  13 your name as the hereditary chiefs, Gwis gyen, Guxsan,  14 Herbert Wesley, Gwagl'lo, Ernest Hyzims, Hanamuxw,  15 Joan Ryan, Saanoos, Rod Johnson, and many others.  Do  16 you remember that?  17 A   I know it.  18 MR. GRANT:  Do you have an extra copy of that?  19 MS. KOENIGSBERG:  I am sorry, I don't.  20 Q  In this petition, on page four, it says this:  "Gwis  21 gyen, also known as Stanley Williams, suing on his own  22 behalf and on behalf of all of the members of the  23 house of Gwis gyen."  I am just referring, Madam  24 Interpreter, to page four in the second paragraph that  25 I just read.  Would you read that to the witness?  26 MR. GRANT:  Before reading or going further with the witness on  27 this, this document is something that is five years  28 old.  And the context of the document should be  29 explained to the witness to refresh his memory about  30 what this was about.  There may be many things this  31 witness was involved with with all these chiefs five  32 years ago.  Than petition of right was filed with the  33 Province of British Columbia, for the location of  34 fishing sites at locations of Indian reserves.  That's  35 what the document itself sets out.  36 MS. KOENIGSBERG:  I thought I had sufficiently identified it as  37 referring to Provincial Government fishing sites  38 already and he has already said that he does remember.  39 But if there is — I thought I would start with his  40 name and then go to the claim and put that to him and  41 see how we get along.  42 MR. GRANT:  Okay.  So what I would like you to do is translate  43 what I have just said to the witness, that as to what  44 this document is before he answers questions on it.  45 And refer to the fact that it —  46 A  I don't know about this.  I thought you were asking me  47 the names of the chiefs so I said I know who the 331  S. Williams (For Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Ms. Koenigsberg  1 chiefs were.  But I don't know what this is all about.  2 MS. KOENIGSBERG:  Okay.  3 MR. GRANT:  Did you explain in your translation what I said  4 about it being a claim for fishing sites on reserves  5 by the hereditary chiefs?  6 A  Yes.  7 THE INTERPRETER:  Yes, why he says he doesn't —  8 MR. GRANT:  Okay.  That's why he responded, is what you are  9 saying?  10 THE INTERPRETER:  Hm-hmm.  11 A  You have named out some chiefs whose names that are on  12 this.  13 MS. KOENIGSBERG:  14 Q  Petition?  15 A  This petition, and I will — I can't say anything  16 since you have named out these chiefs and I can't say  17 anything without their consent so I will have to go  18 and ask them about it.  If you could, you could give  19 me a copy and I will show it to them.  20 MS. KOENIGSBERG:  21 Q  Gwis gyen, you also, as a hereditary chief, are named  22 in this petition as a person, a chief, bringing this  23 petition.  Do you have any recollection of having  24 brought such a petition as Gwis gyen, representing  25 your house, in 1983, that would have been with other  26 hereditary chiefs from Gitsegukla and other villages.  27 MR. GRANT:  A claim to the provincial government for fishing  28 sites on the reserves.  29 MS. KOENIGSBERG:  If you want to add that.  30 A  Yes, I remember.  I — the provincial government has  31 nothing to do with our fishing sites.  We were only  32 trying to protect these fishing sites and this was  33 ours from hundreds of years back, because we have  34 names, we have our own Indian names on these fishing  35 sites and the provincial government has nothing to do  36 with it.  37 q  In this petition you were asking the federal  38 government to recognize your traditional fishing  39 sites; is that right?  I am sorry —  40 MR. GRANT:  You said the federal.  41 MS. KOENIGSBERG:  I am sorry.  Provincial.  42 MR. GRANT:  The term petition of right is a term of art, it's a  43 legal term and a type of legal document.  That's  44 probably one of the things that is confusing to the  45 witness.  He wouldn't be familiar with a term of  46 petition of right.  That's one thing.  Secondly, I  47 don't think that — I think that misconstrues what it 332  S. Williams (For Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Ms. Koenigsberg  1 says, what that document is is a claim that the  2 hereditary chiefs own those sites.  It's not a claim  3 of recognition by the provincial government but rather  4 a claim that they own them against the provincial  5 government.  6 MS. KOENIGSBERG:  Well, this is cross-examination, Mr. Grant.  7 MR. GRANT:  I agree it's cross-examination.  8 MS. KOENIGSBERG:  If you will just let me finish.  I agree that  9 he may not understand the word petition and I didn't  10 want to call it something else and confuse what it is  11 we are talking about.  However, I think he can answer  12 if he understands that that is one of the things they  13 are asking for.  I don't need to get into the legal  14 niceties of whether asking a government or for a  15 declaration amounts to recognition of ownership of  16 fishing sites.  But I think, quite frankly, that is  17 putting it in a fair way, and at least he can answer  18 it if this is the major thrust of this.  I simply want  19 to bring it in some breadth to his memory of what was  20 involved here so that I can ask him about some of the  21 people who were involved.  22 MR. GRANT:  And I have no objection to that intent.  I am just  23 saying when you are saying it's a claim against the  24 government a petition of right, the petition of right  25 was filed against Crown Proceeding Act for leave to  26 file an action in the courts.  That's what it was  27 about.  That's that's certainly something that's  28 getting into technical niceties.  But when you use the  29 term petition of right, that's what you are talking  30 about.  It was not a request of the government to  31 recognize their rights, it was a request of the  32 government to allow a writ to be issued under the old  33 Crown Proceeding Act, which writ was a claim that  34 these chiefs owned those fishing sites and that's what  35 this is all about.  And I am not trying to get you  36 into technical niceties, I am saying if you are going  37 to interpret it for the witness, what the document is,  38 I want you to be precise.  You may, unintentionally, I  39 agree, mislead the witness.  40 MS. KOENIGSBERG:  Well, I don't think I am going to be able to  41 pass my way through the technical niceties, as you put  42 it.  He doesn't — if he doesn't understand what a  43 petition is, if that's the name of it, and as I under  44 it he is certainly not going to understand a Crown  45 Proceeding Act.  46 MR. GRANT:  I suggest you raise it as a claim for the ownership  47 of those — 333  S. Williams (For Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Ms. Koenigsberg  1 MS. KOENIGSBERG:  2 Q  Gwis gyen, in 1983 you, along with other hereditary  3 chiefs from the Villaage of Gitsegukla and other  4 villages, were asking the government to let you, to  5 recognize that you own fishing sites in your  6 traditional village areas; is that correct?  7 A  It's clear to me and it's clear to you, that the  8 provincial government was — excuse me.  It's clear to  9 me and it's clear to you that the fishing sites are  10 owned by the Simgigyet, by the Gitksan people, and  11 this — what the provincial government was doing was  12 to take over the fishing sites and this was the reason  13 why the Gitksan villages got together and had a  14 meeting.  We have spent so much money, millions of  15 dollars, for protecting the mountains, protecting the  16 fishing sites, protecting the mountains and the  17 territories, we have spent so much money protecting  18 these territories.  19 MR. GRANT:  Millions of dollars did you say?  20 A  Millions of dollars.  21 MS. KOENIGSBERG:  22 Q  In 1983, when you got together to claim ownership of  23 the fishing sites, the chiefs who are named for the  24 Villaage of Gitsegukla were as follows:  Hanamuxw,  25 Saanoos, Haakasxw, Gwagl'lo, Guxsan and Gwis gyen, and  26 I am reading to you from paragraph six on page 23 of  27 Exhibit 26.  If you could read those, read that  28 paragraph, please.  29 A  Yes, our territories are there, which we own and this  30 is our village.  31 Q  In this petition, those chiefs whose names were just  32 read off are said to be the hereditary chiefs of the  33 Village of Gitsegukla.  Were there any other  34 hereditary chiefs of the Villaage of Gitsegukla in  35 1983?  36 A  Those were the chiefs that were there.  And they are  37 the ones that hold the fishing sites.  This was our  38 survival, this is the reason why we did this, we could  39 never let — we won't let our fishing sites go to the  40 government.  41 Q  Saanoos, and the spelling I have for that is  42 S-A-A-N-O-O-S, does Saanoos have his own house?  43 A  Yes, he has got his own house.  44 Q  And does Saanoos have territory?  45 A  Yes, he has got his territory.  46 q  And where is that territory?  47 A   It's at Spaiyt Dat. 334  S. Williams (For Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Ms. Koenigsberg  1 THE TRANSLATOR:  Is there a special spelling for that on the  2 map?  3 MS. KOENIGSBERG:  Is it 125?  4 MR. STERRITT:  Page 35.  5 MS. KOENIGSBERG:  6 Q  Is the name Spaiyt Dat associated with the English  7 name Sandstone Lake?  8 A   I don't know the English name.  9 Q  Is the Spaiyt Dat that you are referring to near 'Wii  10 T'ax?  11 A  The name of the territory is Spaiyt Dat and Wii  12 T'ax — There is a boundary there for Duubisxw, near  13 Wii T'ax.  I told you yesterday, I told the other  14 lawyer yesterday about this, about Wii T'ax.  15 q  What clan is Saanoos?  16 A  Frog.  17 Q  Do you know who Carl Washburne is?  18 A  Yes, I know him.  19 Q  In 1983, did he hold the name Sakxum higookx?  20 A  He is not, Carl Washburne is not a chief.  He has  21 never had the name Sakxum higookx.  There is  22 Simgigyet, Simgigyet who are there.  I wonder where  23 you get these questions.  24 Q  I will tell you, in the petition of right I was asking  25 you about, the documents that were filed by the  26 plaintiff, petitioners, the hereditary chiefs, and  27 others, for the ownership of the fishing sites, it  28 says "Sakxum higookx, also known as Carl Washburne,  29 suing on his own behalf and on behalf of all the  30 members of the Sakxum higookx."  And I am showing you  31 on page four, the 4th paragraph, that's where I got  32 it.  33 A  That's not his name.  34 Q  As far as you are concerned, that's not correct; is  35 that right?  36 A   It's not correct.  37 q  is Carl Washburne in the House of Sakxum higookx?  38 A  Yes, he is in Sakxum higookx's house.  39 Q  And does he hold a chief's name?  40 A  He is not a chief.  He is not a chief.  41 q  Does he own any fishing sites?  42 A  He is a young man and he has passed on already and he  43 usually goes with Sakxum higookx when they go to their  44 fishing sites.  45 Q  And in 1983, who held the name Sakxum higookx?  46 A  Nobody had this name.  Today it's Vernon Smith.  47 q  do you know when Vernon Smith took the name Sakxum 335  S. Williams (For Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Ms. Koenigsberg  1 higookx?  2 A  It could be about four years, three or four years ago,  3 I forgot.  He is not finished the work yet to really  4 get the name Sakxum higookx.  Right now he is just  5 holding the name.  He hasn't done enough work yet.  6 After he raises a pole, then the people will recognize  7 him as Sakxum higookx.  8 Q  Does he sit in the Sakxum higookx seat at the feast  9 today?  10 A  Yes, he sits at Sakxum higookx seat because he is  11 holding that name.  12 Q  Has there been a feast for — has there been a feast  13 recognizing Vernon Smith as holding the name of Sakxum  14 higookx?  15 A  Yes, they had a feast when David Wells died.  He was  16 the Sakxum higookx.  17 q  Do you recall if that feast was held in about 1970?  18 A  I have always, every time someone invites me to a  19 feast, I will always go there and especially when it's  20 around the surrounding villages I will go there.  21 Okay?  I said that David Wells before Vernon Smith,  22 that's not true.  David Wells had that name first and  23 then Alfred Mulwain had that name and Alfred Mulwain  24 didn't finish the work, didn't raise the pole to be  25 recognized as a chief of Sakxum higookx so he was hold  26 that name, and then he died and from then on that name  27 was passed on to Vernon Smith.  And he has to raise a  28 pole in order to be recognized as Sakxum higookx.  29 q  There is a chief referred to in this petition as, I am  30 going to murder this T'ewelasxw, Allan Johnson.  31 A  T'ewelasxw is a chief's name but he is the same as  32 Vernon Smith, he hasn't done enough work or raised a  33 pole to be recognized by the other chiefs.  If they  34 raise the pole, then they will be recognized by the  35 other chiefs.  36 q  Does T'ewelasxw, is T'ewelasxw a separate house?  37 A  Yes, T'ewelasxw has his own house, same as Sakxum  38 higookx but they are close, they are quite close.  39 Closely related.  40 q  When you say that the two houses are quite close, do  41 you mean sometimes they might be the same house and  42 sometimes they might be separate?  43 A  I could not change anything here, I can't say if they  44 have a house, if T'ewelasxw has a house and Sakxum  45 higookx has a house they are separate houses but they  46 are' closely related.  47 q  And do each of those two houses have separate 336  S. Williams (For Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Ms. Koenigsberg  1 territories?  2 A  They have one territory but they are caretakers of  3 different parts of the territory.  4 Q  Do you know Adolphus Morgan?  5 A  Yes, I know him.  6 Q  Is he still living?  7 A  Yes, still alive.  8 Q  Does he hold a chief's name, Yaxyak?  9 A  Yes.  10 Q  And is that a separate house, Yaxyak?  11 A  No, he is from the house of Tooxensxw.  12 Q  What clan is that house?  13 A  They are from Kitwancool in Frog Clan.  14 Q  Has the name Yaxyak ever been part of a house in  15 Gitwingax?  16 A  No.  17 Q  Does Yaxyak own -- I am sorry?  18 A  He said their house is in Kitwancool, not in  19 Gitwingax.  20 Q  Does Yaxyak own any fishing sites on or near the  21 Gitwingax reserve?  22 A  The Kitwancool has no business in having a fishing  23 site in the Gitwingax village.  24 Q  Did you know or were you aware that a fishing site  25 near the fishing site of Gwis gyen was claimed to be  26 owned by Yaxyak in 1983?  It's 409 of schedule C.  27 MR. GRANT:  That's a fishing site, I think the location  28 downstream of the mouth of the Kitwanga, Kitwanga  29 River on the railroad side of the bank, should be put  30 to him as part of the question.  31 .  MS. KOENIGSBERG:  Will you translate that, madam reporter?  I am  32 not looking at it.  33 MR. GRANT:  You should explain this map was part of the document  34 that has been referred to that was part of the claim  35 of the chiefs and there is a reference on the map to a  36 fishing site and it says on the schedule it's referred  37 to as Yaxyak's and it's downstream of the Kitwanga  38 River or the river on the railroad side.  39 A  Yaxyak has no fishing site there, he is from  40 Kitwancool.  41 q  For the record, we have been referring to  42 A  Whoever made that map made a mistake.  43 q  We have been referring to schedule C, Gitwingax.  44 fishing grounds, which is a schedule to the petition,  45 Exhibit 26.  46 Q  I am going to change the subject now and talk about  47 railways.  You told us, Chief Gwis gyen, that you 337  S. Williams (For Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Ms. Koenigsberg  1 worked for the railway as a — part of a section crew;  2 is that correct?  3 A  Yes.  Yes, I worked for the C. N.  4 Q  When was that?  5 A  It's been so many years now, I don't remember the  6 exact number of years.  I first started when I was 12  7 years old as a water boy for the extra gang.  8 Q  Did you work on the railway where it runs near  9 Gitwincjax?  10 A  I worked at Woodcroft, seven miles from the Village of  11 Gitwingax..  Maybe I am guilty because I was working  12 for them.  13 Q  You are guilty of working for them.  14 You say that you remember starting working for them  15 when you were 12, did you work for them for many  16 years?  17 A  I worked there for seven years and at 14 they — I  18 worked with the ties.  We got $1.40 a day, 20 cents an  19 hour.  20 Q  Did you or any member of your house, that you know of,  21 work on building the railway near your territory?  22 A  No, only the Bohunks were working, making the tracks.  23 Q  do you know Wallace — I am going to change the  24 subject again — do you know Wallace Lax'nits'?  Did  25 you know Wallace L-a-x-'n-i-t-s'  26 MR. GRANT:  Wallace Lax'nits*.  27 A  I know Jim Lax'nits', not Wallace.  28 MS. KOENIGSBERG:  29 Q  And did he hold a chief's name?  30 A  Which one?  31 Q  Jim.  32 A  Jim Lax'nits' is the chief, the head chief in  33 Gitwing_ax_ and his name was Wii Hlengwax.  34 Q  Did he have a daughter named Mary Ann Harris?  35 A  Yes, that's the daughter.  36 MR. GRANT:  We should take a break now.  37 MS. KOENIGSBERG:  38 Q  Are you aware that Jim Lax'nits' left a will when he  39 died?  40 A  No.  It's none of my business to try to find out if he  41 did or not, because he belongs to the Frog Clan and I  42 am in the Gisk'aast clan.  43 q  do you know Mrs. Amos Williams?  44 A  Yes, I know her.  45 Q  Did you or were you aware that Jim Lax'nits' left his  46 chief's name to Mrs. Amos Williams?  47 MR. GRANT:  Just a minute.  In a will are you referring to? 338  S. Williams (For Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Ms. Koenigsberg  1  MS  2  MR  3  MS  4  MR  5  MS  6  MR  7  8  MS  9  10  11  MR  12  MS  13  MR  14  15  16  MS  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  MR  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  MS  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  MS  44  45  46  47  KOENIGSBERG:  Yes.  GRANT:  He left his chief's name in his will to Mrs. --  KOENIGSBERG:  Mrs. Amos Williams.  GRANT:  Do you have a document that says that?  KOENIGSBERG:  But he wouldn't recognize that.  GRANT:  Before you frame the question I would like to see  the document.  KOENIGSBERG:  I doubt I brought the file because I couldn't  put the will.  It's contained in Tom Harris's estate  file, which is number 3735 in our list of documents.  GRANT:  37?  KOENIGSBERG:  35.  GRANT:  Well, all I am saying, the wording should be put to  the witness.  A  No.  KOENIGSBERG:  Q  To your knowledge, does Mary Ann Harris, Jim Lax'nits'  daughter, hold any rights to any territory which Jim  Lax'nits' would have had rights to?  A  I only know that Mary Ann holds the territory  Stakhaiyt, her father's territory.  Q  Are Mary Ann Harris and Mary Ann Fowler the same  person?  A  No.  Q  And, to your knowledge, it's Mary Ann Fowler —  GRANT:  Just a second.  I had a note in my — and my note  may have been wrong, that he said Mary Ann Fowler.  I  heard the interpreter say Mrs. Amos Williams, and  endeavoured to help her but what she says that you  said, Mary Ann Fowler, and the record will show that  you — I know you hadn't said Mrs. Amos Williams.  So  maybe you should go back and ask the question with the  right name.  KOENIGSBERG:  I am trying to straighten it out.  Q  Once again, referring to Mary Ann Harris not Mary Ann  Fowler.  When you said that Mary Ann Fowler holds the  rights to, I believe you referred to it as Stakhaiyt's  territory, you did not mean Mary Ann Harris, you meant  Mary Ann Fowler?  A  No, you twist the words.  You say Mary Ann Harris, and  the next word you say Mary Ann Fowler.  Something  wrong in here and here.  KOENIGSBERG:  Q  You will have to point your finger at Mr. Grant, not  me.  Bear with us.  We have become confused.  A  Mary Ann Harris, that's Jim Lax'nits' heir, Mary Ann  Fowler. 339  S. Williams (For Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Ms. Koenigsberg  1 Q  Which Mary Ann is it who holds the rights to  2 Stakhaiyt?  3 A  Harris.  In my house.  4 Q  And how did she get those rights?  5 A   It's known as Amnigwootxw and when he dies it's wiped  6 out.  The Amnigwootxw is no more.  The territory goes  7 back on the rightful owner.  8 MS. KOENIGSBERG:  Okay.  We will have a break.  9  10 (PROCEEDINGS ADJOURNED AND RESUMED FOLLOWING RECESS)  11  12 MS. KOENIGSBERG:  13 Q  I am going to change the subject again, Gwis gyen, and  14. ask you about a convention, which I understand was  15 held in 1980 of the Gitksan at that time known as the  16 Gitksan Carrier Tribal Council.  Do you recall  17 attending an annual convention, the third annual  18 convention in Hazelton of the tribal council?  19 A  Yes, I was there.  20 Q  And you, along with many other chiefs, were introduced  21 as hereditary chiefs, as one of the elders?  22 A  Yes, that's right.  23 Q  Did you, along with any of the other hereditary  24 chiefs, say at that convention that you felt that the  25 hereditary chiefs were being overlooked and not heard  26 in policy making and that you wanted a bigger voice in  27 the tribal council?  28 A  I don't understand what you are saying.  29 THE INTERPRETER:  I will try again.  30 A  Yes, they said it.  31 Q  And, to your knowledge, was a resolution passed at  32 that convention saying that the hereditary chiefs  33 would have a larger voice?  34 A  This is the law of the Simgigyet, they have to ask  35 permission from their chiefs before they do something.  36 Our laws are in each house of the chiefs and this is  37 the laws that we used.  If anybody should make a  38 mistake, then that person would be told that there was  39 a mistake been made.  It's just like the way we have  40 been treated by the white people, they — whatever  41 they want to do, they do without our permission on our  42 territories and this is the way we are treated by the  43 white people.  It's just the same with the sports  44 fishermen, whenever they want to fish they go and fish  45 and never even try to ask who owns the fishing site.  46 They don't recognize the Gitksan people, the  47 Aluugigyet.  Our people know the territories and they 340  S. Williams (For Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Ms. Koenigsberg  1 know their land and they have spent so much for their  2 territories and their fishing sites, they have spent  3 probably millions of dollars already.  4 Q  Did you speak at the tribal council convention in 1980  5 that I just asked you about?  6 A  I have been talking for a long time at these meetings,  7 every time there is a meeting and every time there is  8 a convention, I don't keep track of how many times I  9 have talked and every time there is a meeting or a  10 feast, I always stood up and talked.  If I knew that  11 we were going to be trapped in and asked these  12 questions, then I would have kept track of everything  13 all these years.  14 Q  Since 1980 and the convention we were just talking  15 about, have the hereditary chiefs, as far as you are  16 concerned, had a larger voice in the policy making of  17 the tribal council?  18 A  The chiefs are the ones that hold these laws and they  19 put it into action when there is a meeting and the  20 Wet'suwet'en also attend these meetings as they have  21 the same loss as ours.  They have interpreters there  22 that would explain to the people that are not of, that  23 are not Simgigyet and they would interpret whatever is  24 going on at those meetings.  25 Q  I want to change the subject now and talk about some  26 of the things that you have already told us in the  27 area of spirituality.  28 You told us, Chief Gwis gyen, that in ancient times  29 out on the territories, your ancestors gave thanks to  30 a creator; is that right?  31 A  We have always believed that there is a creator that  32 is watching over us, and it's not recently that we  33 have believed in this.  The creator put us on this  34 land and you people are from the country known as the  35 old country, and we were here and the creator placed  36 us on this land and this is where he created us.  And  37 it's not the white people that come on to our  38 territory that showed us the — there was the creator.  39 We always knew, our ancestors always knew that there  40 was always a creator because when they ever had  41 problems on their territories, what they would do is  42 they would burn a fire and they would put part of  43 their food in that fire and as the smoke is going up  44 they would make an offering, as the smoke is going up  45 they would pray.  46 q  Today you are a member of the Anglican Church; is that  47 correct? 341  S. Williams (For Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Ms. Koenigsberg  1 A  Yes.  2 Q  And is it part of your spiritual beliefs today that  3 Jesus Christ is the son of God?  4 A  I have known, we have known that before.  5 Q  And part of your beliefs are that Jesus Christ is your  6 saviour; is that correct?  7 A  Yes, I always knew there was the creator and if I do  8 not believe, say I do not believe this, then I would  9 be guilty, if I denied in believing.  It seems to me  10 that you may be the guilty one, seems to me you don't  11 believe in the creator.  12 Q  I would like to change the subject now and ask you  13 some questions about David Wells.  You have told us in  14 your evidence in the last several days and as well in  15 your affidavit, that you knew David Wells and that he  16 instructed you about some of the territories; is that  17 correct?  18 A  Yes.  19 Q  To your knowledge, did David Wells hold the chief's  20 name Ligii 'Nihlaa? My spelling for that is  21 L-E-G-A-H, space —  22 MR. GRANT:  I think that name is on the plaintiff's list.  23 THE TRANSLATOR:  Number 4 79.  24 MS. KOENIGSBERG:  Ligii 'Nihlaa?  25 THE TRANSLATOR:  Yes.  26 A  Yes, that's him.  27 MS. KOENIGSBERG:  28 Q  And did David Wells also hold the name Sakxum higookx?  29 A  Yes, he had the name Sakxum higookx before Alfred.  30 Q  Do you know Doris or Dora Morrison?  31 A  Yes, I know her.  32 Q  And do you know her as the daughter of David Wells?  33 A  Yes, that's his daughter, Doris.  34 Q  And is David Wells or did David Wells have rights in  35 the Fiddler Creek area?  I believe the Gitksan name is  36 Xsu gwin Ga'at.  37 A  He is the head chief and he owns that territory and  38 was living at T'ewelasxw.  David Wells owns T'ewelasxw  39 and Xsu gwin Ga'at was the territory of T'ewelasxw.  40 MR. GRANT:  You say David Wells owns T'ewelasxw?  41 A  David Wells is the head chief and T'ewelasxw.  42 MR. GRANT:  Well, did you get all of that that the witness said  43 directly?  44 THE REPORTER:  Yes.  45 MS. KOENIGSBERG:  46 q  When David Wells held the name Xsu gwin Ga'at are you  47 saying that T'ewelasxw was in the same house? 342  S. Williams (For Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Ms. Koenigsberg  1 A  Sakxum higookx was the head chief of that house and  2 T'ewelasxw was in that house.  3 Q  Do you know George Moore?  4 A   Yes, I know him.  5 Q  Did he hold the name T'ewelasxw?  6 A  Yes, he had this name but he died a long time ago.  7 Q  Yes.  Were you aware that David Wells gave a  8 registered trapline in Fiddler Creek area to his  9 daughter, Dora Morrison?  10 MR. GRANT:  Just a moment.  Before you translate the question, I  11 just want to check something.  I just want to look at  12 something.  I am not necessarily objecting.  13 Are you referring — you are obviously referring to  14 something out of your document 4603, presumably, I  15 just want you to refer me to the document on which you  16 are relying for how you said that, that he gave a  17 registered trapline.  18 MS. KOENIGSBERG:  I don't have the number with me but my  19 information is that there was a wedding feast and he  20 gave it to her as a wedding present.  21 MR. GRANT:  That's referred to in the document?  22 MS. KOENIGSBERG:  Oh, yes.  Then later in the will, but she  23 already seemed to have had it.  24 MR. GRANT:  Well, I would ask that you phrase the question to  25 refer to it, because it may be that something  26 happened, different things happen at different times  27 so whatever one you want to refer to, I think you  28 should be specific with the witness.  29 MS. KOENIGSBERG:  I will try.  But I think I am entitled to his  30 general knowledge.  But I will try.  31 MR. GRANT:  When you say gave it to her, then that's — I don't  32 know how that's translated exactly but that may imply  33 certain things so if you could focus a bit more.  34 MS. KOENIGSBERG:  Okay.  35 Q  When Doris Morrison was married, was there a wedding  36 feast, to your knowledge?  37 A  I don't know where she got married.  And I don't care  38 about it.  39 q  If there was a wedding feast, I take it you didn't  40 attend?  41 A  No.  I don't know about this.  42 Q  Do you know if David Wells transferred his trapline,  43 which was registered in the Fiddler Creek area, to his  44 daughter, Doris Morrison?  45 A  No.  I don't think any of the people know, the  46 Simgigyet, because he has a lot of house members and  47 he is not supposed to do this if he transfers it to 343  S. Williams (For Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Ms. Koenigsberg  1 his daughter.  The only time this could happen is when  2 the house members are dwindling and his daughter could  3 take that and be the caretaker of that territory.  4 This is what I did when my mother paid for the  5 expenses of her father, she was given a part of the  6 land to use and to raise her children on, and after my  7 mother died, what I did is I returned it back to the  8 rightful owner.  And this is the law of the  9 Aluugigyet.  10 Q  You said that George Moore, as T'ewelasxw, was the  11 caretaker of the Fiddler Creek area?  12 A  T'ewelasxw, the father of Cyrus Brown, was the  13 caretaker of Xsu gwin Ga'at.  14 A  After T'ewelasxw died, this T'ewelasxw died, David  15 Wells trapped on that territory.  It rightfully  16 belongs to Lax_ Skiik.  17 Q  When David Wells passed away, are you aware that he  18 left a will in which he left his chief's name, Ligii  19 'Nihlaa, to his daughter, Dora Morrison?  20 MR. GRANT:  Is that out of the same file?  21 MS. KOENIGSBERG:  Yes.  22 MR. GRANT:  In the estate file or trapline files?  23 MS. KOENIGSBERG:  It's in several estate files.  But they are  24 called David Wells estate file.  25 A  I am not aware of the territory that was given,  26 supposed to have been given to Doris, but I am aware  27 that David Wells was supposed to have adopted Doris  28 into his house and I — this never, ever happened and  29 it is quite serious with the adoption, the adoption is  30 quite serious, because when the adoption occurs you  31 have to spend a lot of money in the feast hall.  So I  32 don't think this happened.  I will be adopting  33 Tenimgyet's wife soon and I have to spend a lot of  34 money.  If I do not do this, and I put a name on  35 Tenimgyet's wife, if I do not spend a lot of money, it  36 wouldn't be recognized by the Simgigyet.  37 Q  Do you know if Dora Morrison holds the name Ligii  38 'Nihlaa?  39 A  They wanted to use this name but there are other men  40 in that house that won't allow this and they didn't  41 want to put that — well, they try to use the name  42 Ligii 'Nihlaa, but there are a lot of house members  43 against that and there are a lot of male house members  44 that will use this name.  And this name is not  45 recognized yet, whoever takes the name will have to  46 spend a lot of money then it will be recognized.  47 That's one of the important names in Sakxum Higookx's 344  S. Williams (For Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Ms. Koenigsberg  1 house, is Ligii 'Nihlaa and —  2 Q  Are you saying that Doris Morrison is using the name  3 but that she has not had a feast and is not recognized  4 by her house as having that name?  5 A  No, she doesn't have this name but they wanted to use  6 this name.  7 Q  Do you know anything about David Wells selling a totem  8 pole?  9 A  No.  What is the name of the pole you are talking  10 about?  11 Q  I don't know.  I am instructed that Dora Morrison  12 thought that David Wells sold a totem pole for $1500  13 and she wanted the money and there was some claim  14 about the money.  I do not know the name of the pole.  15 MR. GRANT:  Do you know where are the — the village of the  16 pole?  17 MS. KOENIGSBERG:  No.  I don't know anything else, that's why I  18 was asking you.  19 MR. GRANT:  Do you want to translate that, what she just said?  20 A  If that is a pole of the Eagle Clan, then Doris  21 Morrison has no business with that pole because she is  22 from the house of Ts'iiwa', from Kitwancool.  23 MS. KOENIGSBERG:  Is that number 488?  24 THE TRANSLATOR:  Yes.  25 MS. KOENIGSBERG:  Ts'iiwa'?  26 THE TRANSLATOR:  Yes.  27 MS. KOENIGSBERG:  28 Q  I just want to go back and clarify one more thing  29 about the holding of the name Ligii 'Nihlaa.  Is there  30 a caretaker of that name, a person holding that name  31 today until someone takes it in a feast?  32 A  Vernon Smith is using the name Ligii 'Nihlaa and he  33 also sits at Sakxum higookx's feast.  This name  34 belongs to Sakxum higookx's house, it's not Doris's.  35 Q  I am changing the subject now to a different person.  36 Do you know Agnes Sutton?  37 MR. GRANT:  She is deceased.  38 MS. KOENIGSBERG:  39 Q  Did you know Agnes Sutton?  40 A  I knew her and I know the way she laughed.  41 q  how did she laugh?  42 A   (Witness indicates).  43 MR. GRANT:  Do we have that on the record?  44 MS. KOENIGSBERG:  I hope so.  45 q  What house was Agnes Sutton in?  46 A  From the house of Wii Hlengwax.  47 q  Did she hold a chief's name? 345  S. Williams (For Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Ms. Koenigsberg  1 A   Ax Goot'.  2 MS. KOENIGSBERG:  That's 522 on the word list.  3 Q  Do you know Gary Burke?  4 THE INTERPRETER:  When?  5 MR. GRANT:  David Gary Burke?  6 A  He is the son of Herbert Burke.  7 MS. KOENIGSBERG:  8 Q  Was he adopted into the house of we Wii Hlengwax?  9 A  Herb adopted his two children.  Herb Burke, Wii  10 Hlengwax, isn't he? The house is dwindling, so there  11 is the reason he is doing this.  12 Q  Are you aware that Agnes Sutton, when she passed away,  13 left a will? A will in which she gave land on which  14 she was living, off the reserve, to Gary Burke?  15 MR. GRANT:  Just a moment.  I want to record an objection here.  16 The only way in which this information could come into  17 the knowledge of the federal defendant is by access to  18 wills and estate files of Mrs. Sutton, who just  19 recently passed away.  If those files were in the  20 hands of a private solicitor they would be privileged,  21 except for the probating of the will, there is no  22 process for probating a will and in fact it's in the  23 custody of the minister as part of his trust  24 responsibility under the Indian Act to deal with the  25 probating of wills.  I think it's highly objectionable  26 that the federal defendant is breaching, in my view,  27 the privilege which attaches to those files, in order  28 to cross-examine witnesses.  I object to the question  29 on those grounds and will object to it when this  30 evidence is introduced at trial.  31 MS. KOENIGSBERG:  Yes, Mr. Grant, you have made that objection  32 before.  33 MR. GRANT:  And in part it has been sustained.  34 MS. KOENIGSBERG:  Not obviously in relation to wills where land  35 is left and you, of course, have cross-examined or  36 examined on wills.  37 MR. GRANT:  That was — I have examined this witness on a will  38 which this witness had and which this witness was open  39 to privilege.  I did not obtain that will as a result  40 of independent work as a solicitor for this witness or  41 his ancestors and I don't think I am entitled, as a  42 solicitor, to breach the privilege of other files of  43 other people for the purpose of this litigation and,  44 in this case, I think the federal Crown, the — you  45 are — you are — you have moved into that area and I  46 object to it.  47 MS. KOENIGSBERG:  You have made that objection clear.  It's not 346  S. Williams (For Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Ms. Koenigsberg  1 been sustained.  2 Q  All right.  Do you remember the question?  3 MR. GRANT:  It hasn't been ruled on, my objection today.  4 MS. KOENIGSBERG:  I am not going to debate it with you here.  5 Q  Do you want me to to repeat the question?  6 A  I do not know about this will but I know she has a  7 daughter, she adopted Rosy, who is with Robert Jackson  8 senior now.  Rosy may know about this will but I  9 don't.  Her maiden name was Rosy Sutton.  She was  10 adopted by Agnes.  11 Q  Thank you.  Do you know that Agnes Sutton had a  12 registered trapline which covered part of the western  13 part of the claim area, north of Cedarvale and west  14 and a little bit south of Kitwanga Lake?  15 THE INTERPRETER:  Did you say northeast of Cedarvale?  16 MS. KOENIGSBERG:  17 Q  North of Cedarvale and north and west and a little bit  18 south of Kitwanga Lake.  19 A  I — you have to tell me the name of the territory and  20 the name of the lake.  Because I don't know what you  21 are talking about now.  22 Q  Well, maybe we can break for lunch and I will see if I  23 can figure out the Indian names in the particular  24 area.  And I can ask you after lunch.  25 MR. GRANT:  Okay.  Break until 1:30.  26  27 (PROCEEDINGS ADJOURNED FOR LUNCH AND RESUMED AGAIN AT  28 1:30 P.M.)  29  30 MS. KOENIGSBERG:  31 Q  Gwis gyen, just before we broke for lunch I was asking  32 you about a trapline that Agnes Sutton had registered  33 and I was going to try and find it on a larger map and  34 locate it with regard to the territory it was in.  And  35 I have been unable to do that because I don't have a  36 large enough map.  I am going to move on now into  37 another subject area.  38 I would like to go back and ask you about the  39 Fiddler Creek area again.  And I would like to ask you  40 if you know some people who are said to have  41 registered traplines in that area.  Could you just  42 translate that?  43 A  When you mentioned Fiddler Creek, are you talking  44 about Xsu gwin Ga'at?  45 Q  Yes.  46 A  I don't know if anybody registered in this area.  It  47 belongs to the Eagle Clan.  The waters that run there. 347  S. Williams (For Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Ms. Koenigsberg  1 Q  Have you heard of a person called Gunnar Waldeck?  2 A  No.  There is no name in Simgigyet as Donald Wild  3 Duck.  4 Q  Do you know a person by the name of Schofield,  5 S-C-H-O-F-I-E-L-D, L. Schofield?  6 A   No.  7 Q  Have you heard of a person by the name of Ruth Hayward  8 H-A-Y-W-A-R-D?  9 A  I know her.  10 Q  And has she held a registered trapline in the area of  11 Fiddler Creek?  12 A  No, I don't know.  13 Q  Have you heard — sorry.  14. A  I know the territory belongs to the Eagle Clan and the  15 Eagle Clan is supposed to know about these things.  16 Q  One last person, L. H. Rema, R-E-M-A, Rema?  17 A  No.  18 Q  I have a different subject and I would like to put  19 Exhibit 31 in front of you.  20 A  The names of the people that you have just called,  21 just mentioned, do they have registered trapline on  22 this, at this area at xsu gwin Ga'at?  23 Q  I am instructed that at one time or another they have  24 held registered traplines in that area.  25 A  Were they — are they always trapping there? You said  26 one time or another, so I said no.  Like, are they  27 there, are they trapping there every year like?  28 Q  I have no information that I can give you specifically  29 about that.  30 I just want to change the subject —  31 MR. GRANT:  In fact there may never have been trapping there.  32 MS. KOENIGSBERG:  In fact I don't think it's appropriate, on the  33 record, if we are going to go along with it, there are  34 a number of trapping returns, animal returns in all  35 those traplines, there was trapping in that area but  36 it's not evidence here.  37 Q  I am putting in front of you Exhibit 31 for  38 identification, and you will see that it is a map  39 showing the Gitwingax fishing sites.  40 MR. GRANT:  It's an exhibit proper now.  41 MS. KOENIGSBERG:  I think you're right.  42 MR. GRANT:  I am.  43 MS. KOENIGSBERG:  44 Q  I am just going to refer to you that one, but I am —  45 in volume two of your evidence, on this commission,  46 Gwis gyen, in answer to a question from Mr. Grant —  47 MR. GRANT:  Page? 348  S. Williams (For Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Ms. Koenigsberg  1 MS. KOENIGSBERG:  91.  2 MR. GRANT:  Go ahead.  3 MS. KOENIGSBERG:  4 Q  I am going to read you a portion of what you said and  5 ask the interpreter to translate it then I am going to  6 ask you a question.  And that passage is:  7  8 "Q  Now, where this territory goes along the Xsan are  9 there fishing sites of the Lax Skiik in that  10 area?  11 A  The Lax Skiik doesn't take the fishing sites that  12 are there.  There is one there at the mouth of  13 Xsu gwin Yookhl and this belongs to Haalus.  14 Q  Okay."  15  16 MR. GRANT:  This is the context of this question and answer was  17 in his description of the Xsu gwin Yookhl territory  18 which is Exhibit X and I just think, I just would ask  19 Madam Interpreter to explain that the context of what  20 that was about.  So that we know what we are talking  21 about.  22 MS. KOENIGSBERG:  I just want to clarify Exhibit 31 in relation  23 to that.  24 Q  Starts at line 15, madam interpreter.  It's marked  25 with a little yellow mark there, if you will start  26 there, "Now, where this territory..."  27 A  Yes, that's right.  28 Q  As I understand your answer there, you were saying  29 that the fishing site at the mouth of Xsu gwin Yookhl  30 is not used and I didn't quite understand what you  31 meant, is not used or owned by the Lax Skiik; is that  32 correct?  33 A  The Lax Skiik have a fishing site, have fishing site  34 down on this side of Xsu gwin Yookhl and on this side  35 it belongs to Haalus, and this is part of Haalus's  36 territory which goes up to Xsu gwin Yookhl.  37 Q  If I understand you, Madam Interpreter, as you facing  38 north, Haalus —  39 THE INTERPRETER:  I am just using his directions.  40 Q  Haalus has a fishing site on the right or east site  41 and the Lax Skiik fishing site is on the left or to  42 the west?  43 A  The Lax Skiik is on the left side, east side, and the  44 Haalus is on the west side.  45 Q  Looking at Exhibit 31, where the map shows Xsu gwin  46 Yookhl, as it goes toward Xsan, there is a fishing  47 site? 349  S. Williams (For Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Ms. Koenigsberg  1 A  That's Haalus.  2 Q  Do I understand your evidence that the fishing site  3 there shown as Lax Skiik should be Haalus, that's your  4 evidence?  5 A  Haalus, yes that's it, Lax Skiik on this side and  6 Haalus on this side.  7 Q  Madam Interpreter is indicating with her — to the  8 right for the east —  9 MR. GRANT:  Just a second.  I would just like to clarify this.  10 When he is saying on the left and right side, which  11 way is he facing, is he looking at the river from the  12 shore?  13 A  If you are going down from — as you are going, if you  14 are standing where the Xsu gwin Yookhl comes, Haalus  15 owns right on your left and Lax Skiik on the right.  16 MS. KOENIGSBERG:  17 Q  That's facing the Skeena.  18 MR. GRANT:  That's facing the Skeena River looking downstream on  19 Xsu gwin Yookhl?  20 A  Hm-hmm.  21 MS. KOENIGSBERG:  22 Q  As we are looking at Exhibit 31, is there a fishing  23 site on that map which corresponds to the Lax Skiik  24 fishing site that you are describing, Gwis gyen?  25 THE WITNESS:   After the court I would like to take you down  26 there.  27 Q  If I have time I would be delighted.  28 THE WITNESS:   Show it to you.  Show you all the land down  29 there.  Short time.  30 Q  Thank you.  For right now, if we can try and describe  31 this so that we can understand it for the record.  32 Looking at Exhibit 31, where you have just been  33 describing, there is a fishing site which is labelled  34 as belonging to to Lax Skiik and you are telling us  35 that belongs to Haalus; is that correct?  36 MR. GRANT:  Just a second.  If you are going to refer —  37 firstly, I don't exactly know why it's necessary to do  38 this.  He has made it really clear now where these two  39 sites are and it's clear from Exhibit 31 where this  40 triangle is, as to which side of this creek it is on.  41 But if you feel there is some point to pursue that  42 further, I think you should give him the name of that  43 fishing site that is on the map as well as the  44 reference to that it is Lax Skiik.  45 MS. KOENIGSBERG:  46 q  Madam Interpreter could you read the name of that  47 fishing site, so the witness knows how it is labelled, 350  S. Williams (For Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Ms. Koenigsberg  1 and then if you would ask him if there is another  2 site, if there is another place where a site should be  3 shown, so that we have both of the sites that he is  4 describing on there?  5 MR. GRANT:  So that the name on the top, is on the top line and  6 it appears there is actually two names there.  You can  7 see those two names.  8 A  That is Lax Skiik and Sakxum higookx and on the top  9 it's got Xsi ansa gansit.  10 MR. GRANT:  And right after Xsi anso gansit?  11 A  Xsi anso gansit and Xsu gwim yookhl.  12 A  This is where Lax Skiik fishing site is where the Xsi  13 ansa gansit runs out and Xsu gwim yookhl is Haalus's  14 , fishing site.  15 MS. KOENIGSBERG:  Would it be possible to mark on that map,  16 where the second fishing site, the fishing site, the  17 Lax Skiik fishing site that Gwis gyen is telling us  18 about, should be located, if it's not there?  Can you  19 translate that?  I can make the question simpler.  20 Gwis gyen, could you mark with this red pen where  21 you say the Lax Skiik site is located.  22 MR. GRANT:  Just hang on a second, please.  Just one moment.  23 Before you ask the question.  Or translate it, I mean.  24 Now, okay, if you look at Exhibit 31 —  25 MS. KOENIGSBERG:  Mr. Grant, are you going to conduct this  26 cross-examination?  27 MR. GRANT:  No, I am going to try and endeavour to assist you,  28 okay?  Just a moment.  Just a moment.  If you are  29 looking at Exhibit 31, Xsi ansa gansit is a name of  30 the creek, if you look at Exhibit 31 to the right,  31 towards the right of Xsu gwin yookhl, there is another  32 creek that is going down, you can see a little mark  33 into the highway and it goes down,  I am instructed  34 that that creek is Xsi ansa gansit and that may assist  35 you in getting this site located that you are now  36 asking to be marked.  Because the witness, for the  37 record, when he was giving that last earlier answer,  38 just a few moments ago, this is why I wanted to be  39 sure what he was doing, he was pointing between the  40 mouth of Xsu gwin Yookhl and the mouth of what I have  41 described as Xsi ansa gansit.  And in his answer that  42 he was referring to, that is the place where this  43 fishing site is located.  44 MS. KOENIGSBERG:  Well I don't know if it's going to help me or  45 not.  I wonder if we can ask the witness if he can  46 put, with a pen, on this map, near the mouth of Xsu  47 gwin Yookhl, the fishing sites? And my assumption is 351  S. Williams (For Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Ms. Koenigsberg  1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  MR. GRANT  MS,  MR,  MS,  that one of them is there, and there is another one  that belongs there and it belongs on another side.  I  am not quite sure I got it entirely clear where.  If  he could just mark it, it would seem to me that that  would clarify what he means.  You should translate what I understand with respect  to that to the witness too.  This is Xsi ansa gansit right here coming out to the  Skeena and beside this is the Lax Skiik territory, and  as you can see the other side belongs to the Frog Clan  there, their territory goes down here and it hits the  Xsu gwin Yookhl waters and this is where their fishing  site is.  So the red dot that the witness marked is the Lax  Skiik fishing site?  Is the Lax Skiik.  And perhaps we should now mark my copy of the Exhibit  31 as the next exhibit on this commission so that we  have — mark of the witness on the exhibit.  The only difficulty I have with that is that your —  presumably yours has a number of other markings on it.  It obviously does ahve a whole bunch of handwritten  markings.  KOENIGSBERG:  They are mine and they did come from the  evidence that Gwaans gave. But if you have a clean  copy that the witness can mark, that would solve the  problem.  I don't have a clean one.  What I propose to do at  the time we tender this evidence, and the exhibits in,  that you have this available and we will — I have no  objection to us taking this one of yours and I have  marked mine the same way in the same place, and  putting a mark on the original and advising the court  that that's what in fact happened.  KOENIGSBERG:  That's fine.  I think then — I think we  should mark my copy as an exhibit on this commission  A  Q  MR. GRANT  MS,  MR. GRANT  so that there  when we go to  GRANT:  Hm-hmm.  So  can't be any doubt that this is the  for no other reason,  exhibit for  compare it and  it would be an  copy  identification and we won't intend to introduce it at  trial  KOENIGSBERG  except for comparison,  That's right.  (EXHIBIT 14  SITES MAP)  FOR IDENTIFICATION:  GITWINGAX FISHING  MR. GRANT:  If you want that, I will take that with these other 352  S. Williams (For Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Ms. Koenigsberg  1 exhibits.  2 MS. KOENIGSBERG:  It's the only copy we've got.  I will take  3 good care of it.  4 Q  I would like to move to another topic now, Chief Gwis  5 gyen.  Is Pagetdidee — Just one second, I will get it  6 for you.  On Exhibit 6, page 3 of Exhibit 6, there is  7 a person's name, Molly Harris and under it what  8 appears to be a chief's name or a name in your house.  9 And a phonetic rendition of it would be Pagetdidee, do  10 you recognize that name?  11 MR. GRANT:  Maybe you should ask him what the name of Molly  12 Harris is and he might be able to properly pronounce  13 that name and then we will have something to go with.  14 MS. KOENIGSBERG:  Any way we can go.  15 Q  Do you know Molly Harris?  16 A  Yes, I know her.  17 Q  Does she have a name in your house?  18 A  She is not one of the chiefs in my house.  19 THE INTERPRETER:  I am trying to pronounce it.  20 MS. KOENIGSBERG:  I have another there.  B-I-G-E-T-D-E-D-A.  21 MR. GRANT:  What about Badayt dit'aa?  22 A  We don't know the name.  23 MS. KOENIGSBERG:  24 Q  I understand that that name or word means "occupying  25 the key position."  26 A  I don't know.  I don't remember her getting the name.  27 I — I know Molly but I don't know when they put —  28 she got a name like this.  29 MR. GRANT:  Could you just — I wonder what the source of your  30 other spelling is, because that makes a difference.  31 MS. KOENIGSBERG:  Ken Harris's book entitled "Visitors Who Never  32 Left".  33 A  I don't know, because, probably because of the  34 pronunciation of the name.  Every time we have a feast  35 in your house, I am always present and I know who gets  36 a name and what the name is.  And when they come back  37 to have a feast again, I will call that person by that  38 name and I don't remember this one.  39 Q  There is such a name in your house, is that correct,  40 but you don't know of anyone holding that name now?  41 A  Yes, Bagayt dit'aa is our name but I don't know when  42 they put this name on Molly.  43 Q  Do you know a person by the name of Frances Robinson?  44 A  No.  Where was Frances Robinson from?  45 Q  I don't know.  46 MR. GRANT:  Frances, as in female or Francis as in male?  47 MS. KOENIGSBERG: Frances as in female, I believe, F-R-A-N-C-E-S. 353  S. Williams (For Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Ms. Koenigsberg  1 MR. GRANT:  Okay.  2 MS. KOENIGSBERG:  3 Q  Do you know if Hax Bagwootxw, Ken Harris, adopted  4 Francis Robinson into the house of Hax Bagwootxw?  5 A  No.  I don't know who Frances Robinson is and I don't  6 think Ken adopted her.  7 Q  I understand that Ken Harris, Hax Bagwootxw, gave the  8 name Bagayt dit'aa to Frances Robinson for helping him  9 with his book, do you know anything about that?  10 MR. GRANT:  You understand that she was a collaborator with him  11 in the writing of that book?  12 MS. KOENIGSBERG:  Yes, she helped him throughout, apparently.  13 A  I don't know who Frances Robinson is and Ken is not  14 supposed to give our names out like this.  We don't  15 know this person and it seems to me that this name was  16 a payment to Frances Robinson by Ken and that's not  17 right.  18 Q  What you are telling me is you don't know about it,  19 there was no feast or poling at which this happened  20 that you know of?  21 A  No.  And I didn't know that Ken wrote a book like  22 this.  I don't know what's on that book.  23 Q  Okay.  I would like to ask you some questions about  24 another topic now.  Did you attend a feast, a funeral  25 feast for Silas Innes in 1965?  26 THE INTERPRETER:  What was the last name?  27 MS. KOENIGSBERG:  Innes.  28 A  Yes, I attended that.  29 Q  And he is a member or he was a member of the Eagle  30 Clan?  31 A  He was a Lax Skiik, Sarah Innes's husband.  32 Q  Did he hold a chief's name?  33 A  Yes, Luutk'al oolsxw.  34 Q  Is that a high ranking name in the Eagle Clan?  35 MR. GRANT:  Do you mean a head chief are you talking?  36 MS. KOENIGSBERG:  Yes.  37 A  No, it isn't.  38 Q  At that feast, did you receive money or goods,  39 materials, as Gwis gyen?  40 A  I attended the feast and I did receive money but it  41 wasn't all that much and I never received any  42 materials because this wasn't the high chief's name so  43 they just paid the expenses at this feast.  44 Q  Okay.  Why would you have received money?  45 A  It is our law that — our law of the people, of our  46 people, and when a person dies, they would give out  47 the money to whoever is there after the expenses have 354  S. Williams (For Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Ms. Koenigsberg  1 been paid.  2 Q  Do you recall that a name or names were given at that  3 feast and, particularly, do you recall that Abraham  4 Hyzims took a name or was given a name?  5 A  No.  6 Q  Do you recall the name Ska Yan, S-K-A, Y-A-N, I don't  7 know if it's underlined somewhere.  8 A  Ska Yan.  9 MS. KOENIGSBERG:  Say it again for me?  10 A  Ska Yan.  11 MS. KOENIGSBERG:  Ska Yan.  12 Q  Do you remember that name at that feast?  13 A  The person that was holding the name now is Vernon  14 Smith's mother.  15 Q  Do you recall if Vernon Smith was given a name at that  16 feast in 1965?  17 A  No, I don't remember them giving him a name but I  18 remember when Alfred died they did give him a name.  19 He is holding the name.  20 Q  At that same feast in 1965, do you recall a will of  21 Silas Innes being read at the feast, being read out to  22 the people?  23 A  I — there was no will being read and I was the one  24 that bought the coffin for Silas because I had pity on  25 him.  26 Q  Have you ever attended a feast where a will has been  27 read?  28 A  No, I have never attended a feast where a will has  29 been read out.  30 THE INTERPRETER: And he asked who wrote the will and I said  31 anybody that you attended the feast of, have they ever  32 wrote a will and he said no.  33 Q  Was he asking whose will it was that was being read?  34 THE INTERPRETER:  You asked have you ever attended a feast, and  35 anybody's will, has he ever — have they ever read it  36 out in a feast and he said no.  And he wants to know  37 what will are you talking about and whose will are you  38 talking about?  39 MS. KOENIGSBERG:  40 Q  I understand that the 1965 feast for Silas Innes, the  41 funeral feast, that Silas Innes's will was read out.  42 A  I didn't see this.  43 Q  Do you happen to recall what the total contributions  44 were at that feast, was that told to the people at the  45 end, how much the contributions were?  46 MR. GRANT:  Maybe you should split up your question.  You have  47 asked two. 355  S. Williams (For Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Ms. Koenigsberg  1 MS. KOENIGSBERG:  It's true but I thought it more likely to get  2 what I want.  3 Q  Do you recall what the total contributions at that  4 feast were?  5 A  No, I don't.  I don't, I have been to so many feasts  6 and I don't recall the amount that was spent at this  7 time.  They keep track of them in the books.  We had a  8 feast for my son, just one feast and it amounted to  9 78,000.  We put up three feasts before we completed  10 this.  The reason why we spent so much is because of  11 our territories and today the government is jumping on  12 us about our territories.  13 Q  At that feast, might it have been that your brother  14 George bought the coffin and you helped with the or  15 participated in the digging of the grave?  Do you  16 remember that?  17 A  Yes.  18 Q  At such a funeral feast, where people are seated, is  19 there a ranking of the clans?  20 MR. GRANT:  A ranking of the clans?  21 MS. KOENIGSBERG:  Yes.  Number one is whatever it is, number two  22 is whatever it is and there is some order to the way  23 in which they are seated or participate?  24 MR. GRANT:  That is the different clans that are seated?  25 MS. KOENIGSBERG:  Yes.  26 MR. GRANT:  I just think refraining it you will get your answer.  27 MS. KOENIGSBERG:  Okay.  I will try again.  28 Q  At a funeral feast, do the clans speak in a certain  29 order with one always going first, second, third and  30 fourth?  31 A  This is our law.  Whoever is hosting the feast speaks  32 first, Miinhl Simooge't speaks first and then the 'Nii  33 Dil speaks first and then the people that are present  34 on the — that are seated, the other chiefs that are  35 seated take turns speaking.  Do you know what 'Nii Dil  36 is?  37 Q  No, would you explain it to me?  38 A  If I am holding a feast in Gitsegukla, my 'Nii Dil  39 would be sitting at the back centre of the feast hall  40 and they would be the first ones to speak after I have  41 spoken.  After the — after the 'Nii Dil has spoken,  42 then the other part of the people that are sitting on  43 the other side will speak.  And then the people on  44 this side would speak after this side is finished.  45 Q  who in Gitsegukla when you hosted these this feast is  46 your 'Nii Dil?  47 A  Gwagl'lo is my 'Nii Dil. 356  S. Williams (For Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Ms. Koenigsberg  1 Q   I want to change the topic now.  In 1975, a resolution  2 was presented to the Union of B. C. Indian Chiefs by  3 the hereditary Gitksan chiefs of Kispiox and Skeena  4 Valleys, that's April 3rd, 1975.  I will just give you  5 a copy of this, Madam Interpreter, so that you can  6 read it to him.  Among the persons who signed as  7 hereditary chiefs this resolution, was Eli Turner,  8 'Wii 'Yagaa deets', who I believe is from your house.  9 Do you know about this resolution?  10 MR. GRANT:  Well, it should be read to him.  11 MS. KOENIGSBERG:  Well, let's try and see if he recognizes it  12 first.  13 MR. GRANT:  I am saying for him to recognize it, I think the  14 interpreter should have an opportunity to read the  15 entire resolution to him so he knows what you are  16 talking about.  17 MS. KOENIGSBERG:  For the record, this is number 10754 on the  18 Attorney-General of Canada's list of documents.  And  19 it has been marked as an exhibit for identification  20 thusfar at the trial.  But, Madam Interpreter, if you  21 would read, I will read it in English, if you would  22 translate the text of the resolution.  "Whereas, the  23 hereditary Gitksan Chiefs from the Kispiox and Skeena  24 valleys are aware that land claims and aboriginal  25 rights are becoming a major issue amongst the Indian  26 people of B. C, and whereas the Nisga'a tribes are  27 claiming certain tracts which are rightfully the lands  28 of the Gitksan, be it hereby resolved that we direct  29 our elected representatives on the Gitksan Carrier  30 Tribal Council to make land claims a priority issue  31 and make sure that the Gitksan hereditary lands, as  32 defined by all their registered traplines, be made  33 known to the B. C. Land Claims co-ordinator, Mr.  34 Phillip Hall and the Nisga'a people."  And it is  35 signed by, I count 16, although there is some  36 ambiguity there, hereditary chiefs, who have signed  37 it, at least one of whom is in your house, Eli Turner,  38 'Wii 'yagaa deets'.  39 A  I know about this letter but I wasn't there at that  40 time when this was made out.  41 Q  Was there discussion of this, the contents of this  42 resolution, among the chiefs of your house including  43 'Wii 'yagaa deets' and yourself?  44 A  We always have discussions about our territories.  45 Each time we have a — we hold a feast we have  46 discussions of these territories.  Our law comes up  47 and they are put into the action during the feast and 357  S. Williams (For Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Ms. Koenigsberg  1 these territories are talked about and the white  2 people now are — we spent so much money on these  3 territories and this is what the government is trying  4 to take away from us.  I have been on the seat of my  5 father for about 70 years and each time there is a  6 death within our clan and within my own house members,  7 I am the one that spend a lot of money, besides my  8 relatives.  And at one feast we spent almost $100,000.  9 The white people think that they would shake us off  10 but it's been thousands of years since I have — since  11 this chair was passed on from generation to  12 generation.  There were a lot of Gitksan in the  13 ancient time that sat in the same place as I did and I  14 have been on this chair for 70 years.  This seat that  15 I am sitting on has been there for thousands of years  16 and the roots have been imbedded so deep and of all my  17 ancestors that sat on it, their roots are imbedded so  18 deep and we have spent millions of dollars sitting on  19 this chair and this is what the white people are  20 trying to shake up and this is what they are doing.  21 Our law has remained and it's strong, it gets stronger  22 every time, and it's thought like the white man's law,  23 if they don't receive, if they don't benefit or  24 receive $20 from their law they will change their law.  25 This is not the way of our law.  26 Q  I want to just ask you another question about this  27 particular resolution that we have been talking about.  28 I want to know if 'Wii 'yagaa deets', before he signed  29 this resolution, saying that a claim should be put  30 forward as a priority, that —  31 MR. GRANT:  To make land claims a priority.  32 MS. KOENIGSBERG:  I am not going to read it, Peter, so let me  33 finish it.  34 MR. GRANT:  It doesn't say if a land claim should be put  35 forward.  I just don't want you to misconstrue it,  36 that's all.  37 MS. KOENIGSBERG:  38 Q  Before 'Wii 'yagaa deets' signed this resolution,  39 which the hereditary chiefs that signed it were asking  40 that land claims be made a priority and to ensure that  41 Gitksan hereditary lands, as defined by all their  42 registered trap lines be put forward in relation to  43 the Nisga'a land claim, was that discussed by the  44 chiefs in Gwis gyen's house before 'Wii 'yagaa deets'  45 would sign this?  46 A  I was not present at this — no, we did not have a  47 meeting, but there were chiefs present when they had 358  S. Williams (For Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Ms. Koenigsberg  1 this meeting.  This is why this paper is signed and  2 there were enough chiefs there present to sign this  3 but I wasn't present at that time and this is the  4 reason after 'Wii 'yagaa deets' signed this, he told  5 me about this and this is the reason I am sitting here  6 today because of this paper.  7 Q  Did you agree with what is said in this resolution?  8 MR. GRANT:  Just a second.  Maybe you are — all right.  9 MS. KOENIGSBERG:  10 Q  Did you agree that your elected representatives on the  11 Gitksan Carrier Tribal Council make land claims a  12 priority issue and ensure that the Gitksan hereditary  13 lands as defined by all their registered traplines, be  14. made known to the B. C. Land Claims co-ordinator and  15 the Nisga'a people?  16 MR. GRANT:  If you are going to ask that question it's not fair  17 to put both concepts there.  There is two things in  18 there it's resolved to do.  I think you should deal  19 with each of them separately.  20 MS. KOENIGSBERG:  All right.  21 Q  Rather than me read it over, I am reading directly  22 from the sheet that's in front of you, Madam  23 Interpreter.  Would you ask him if he agrees with the  24 first concept? And if you could start reading at "be  25 it hereby resolved that we direct our elected  26 representatives..."  And end it where the comma is,  27 before it begins, "...and ensure that..." Would you  28 ask him if he agreed with that.  29 A  Yes, I agree.  30 Q  And did you agree — and now would you read the last,  31 the rest of that line, beginning with  "...and  32 ensure..."  33 MR. GRANT:  Up to the —?  34 MS. KOENIGSBERG:  Right to the end.  35 A  We don't need that registered traplines.  Some people  36 have registered traplines, I didn't have a registered  37 traplines.  I own my territory and the other people  38 own their territory and they know where it is.  39 Q  Do you mean that you do not agree with what is said  40 here? That is, that the Gitksan hereditary lands be  41 defined by all their registered traplines in relation  42 to the Nisga'a people?  43 A  If some people want to use the word registered  44 trapline, well, let them use it, but not me.  Look at  45 my land, what they said is if you have a registered  46 trapline your land would be protected and as me, for  47 an example, if the land and forest agency come to my 359  S. Williams (For Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Ms. Koenigsberg  1 place and told me to register my trapline today then I  2 will register it today and then the forestry would  3 move in and take all the trees out of my registered  4 trapline.  That has not been protected.  5 MS. KOENIGSBERG:  Better change the tape.  6 MR. GRANT:  Go off the record.  7 (OFF THE RECORD DISCUSSION)  8 MS. KOENIGSBERG:  9 Q  Gwis gyen, we have talked about, you have told us a  10 little bit about Robert Jackson junior, he was a  11 member of your house?  12 A  He was in my house and Yal adopted him.  13 Q  Are you aware that Robert Jackson junior has a  14 registered trapline which covers part or all of Gwis  15 gyen's territory known as Xsisga magaa?  16 A  I know Hax Bagwootxw's territory and that's where I  17 know Robert was.  18 Q  And in 1986, about two years ago, a little over two  19 years ago, did you sign a letter to the conservation  20 officer in Smithers about that trapline and its  21 ownership? And I am just showing you a letter which  22 is typewritten on two pages with the signatures at the  23 end.  And I would ask if you recognize that letter,  24 and if that is your signature on the second page?  25 A  I went to Prince George because Haalus and young Bob  26 were having problems about the territory and I went to  27 Prince George.  Maybe this is what you are talking  28 about.  29 Q  Do you remember signing a document saying that Haalus  30 should have that trapline because it belonged in your  31 house? Well, belonged to your family?  32 A  Haalus was my son, he was still alive then, and young  33 Bob tried to claim this land, which rightfully  34 belonged to Haalus, and this is the reason why I went  35 to Prince George and this is where I went.  My son  36 Haalus was still alive when this letter was being  37 processed and they never did -- they were still —  38 there was still a discussion about this letter in the  39 territory.  Bob is my man, he is in my house, he is a  40 member of my house and I did not like what he was  41 doing because this territory has been passed from  42 generation to generation in Haalus's house and since  43 Bob is a member of my house I was quite concerned so  44 this is the reason I went to Prince George to try and  45 straighten this out.  46 q  can you just tell me if that is your signature on the  47 second page of that letter? 360  S. Williams (For Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Ms. Koenigsberg  1 THE INTERPRETER:   He said who sent this letter, did Bob send  2 this letter?  3 Q  I don't know who sent the letter.  It was received by  4 the provincial government, to whomever it was sent.  5 But do you recognize your own signature on that second  6 page?  7 MR. GRANT:  If you want to know what the letter is — I am going  8 to —  it's quite lengthy and convoluted and if he can  9 recognize the — if he can recognize the letter, by  10 all means, he can comment on it.  11 A  Yes, I know this — I know this letter now, it was  12 made in Gitwingax and there are the chiefs names that  13 have signed here and my name is on it.  14 Q  Do you recognize any of the other signatures?  15 A  Yes.  16 MR. GRANT:  I want to be clear, does he recognize the signatures  17 or the names?  18 MS. KOENIGSBERG:  I am going to go through specifically to see  19 what signatures he recognizes.  20 MR. GRANT:  But he may have misunderstood.  21 A  I know the names but I don't know the signature.  22 MS. KOENIGSBERG:  23 Q  Okay.  There are no other signatures but your own  24 which you actually recognize on that page; is that  25 correct?  26 A  Yes.  I have got a letter at home that will be put out  27 and there will be problems with — between these  28 people here involved.  29 Q  I want to understand one other thing about this before  30 we break for today, if I can.  Did you understand that  31 Robert Jackson junior is saying that this territory  32 belonged to the house of Yal through all of the  33 generations?  That's what his claim is, did you  34 understand that?  35 MR. GRANT:  Well, which territory are you referring to?  36 MS. KOENIGSBERG:  The territory that's covered in the letter.  37 The trapline area.  38 MR. GRANT:  That covers two of the territories in Exhibit 4.  39 MS. KOENIGSBERG:  Well, everything that's on that and a lot  40 more, he has apparently said.  Let's see if he  41 understands.  42 MR. GRANT:  Just to be — just to be absolutely fair and clear,  43 specifically, at least the territory that's in B of  44 the territories, Whiskey Creek area —  45 MR. GRANT:  Well, the map that's part of the file that's  46 attached to the file refers to Whiskey Creek, Boulder  47 Creek and Price Creek. 361  S. Williams (For Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Ms. Koenigsberg  1 MS. KOENIGSBERG:  In fact, it's my understanding from reading  2 the file that Jackson claims a huge area, a lot of the  3 Seven Sisters area as traditionally Yal and I simply  4 want to know what Jackson claims as being  5 traditionally Yal.  But I don't want to ask him that  6 that question without having read the whole thing to  7 him and get confused about other areas in the specific  8 trapline we are talking about.  So let's start by  9 restricting the question to the Whiskey Creek area and  10 see if he knows if Yal claimed that.  11 MR. GRANT:  You are talking about a specific trapline area but  12 we are — when you are talking about a three, you are  13 referring to Whiskey Creek, Boulder Creek, Price  14 Creek, all in one trapline area, which are in two,  15 possibly more of the territories described by the  16 witness.  So that I think my understanding is that  17 this area encompasses just — not just the Hlihlguuhl  18 sganist, tab 4-B, but also Xsu wii lax loobit  19 territory of Haalus, which is what this witness has  20 been referring to in his evidence just now.  21 MS. KOENIGSBERG:  It's my understanding that Robert Jackson  22 junior claimed it all.  23 MR. GRANT:  That may or may not have been the case.  But when  24 you are talking — I don't object to you asking him  25 about that, but I want to be sure, if you are talking  26 about that trapline area, you refer to that one  27 territory and, well, that trapline refers to more than  28 one territory.  I just want to be sure he understands  29 what you are talking about.  30 MS. KOENIGSBERG:  It's after three.  I wonder if it would be  31 more precise, if we can read more precisely from what  32 Robert Jackson says and have a boundary as to what he  33 says his territory is.  And there isn't a lot more  34 that I have to ask him.  35  36 (PROCEEDINGS ADJOURNED AT 3:09 p.m.)  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47 362  S. Williams (For Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Ms. Koenigsberg  1 Hazelton, B. C.  2 April 28, 1988.  3  4 STANLEY WILLIAMS, Resumed:  5  6    CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS. KOENIGSBERG:  (Continued)  7  8 MS. KOENIGSBERG:  This is the 12th day of Stanley Williams's  9 commission and the continuation of the  10 cross-examination by counsel for the federal  11 government.  12 Q  Chief Gwis gyen, yesterday when we adjourned for the  13 evening break, we were talking about the Robert  14 . Jackson junior trapline area and I was going to — I  15 wanted to ask you if you were aware that Robert  16 Jackson junior was saying that the trapline area,  17 which includes Whiskey Creek, Boulder Creek and Price  18 Creek, had been traditionally owned by Yal?  19 A  Are you talking about Xsisga magaa when you say  20 Whiskey Creek?  21 Q  Yes.  22 A  Ever since the beginning of time, these territories  23 have been passed on from generation to generation.  24 And I used to go with the old Haalus, I used to go on  25 this territory and he used to tell me about all this.  26 And he knew I was — he was training me when he was  27 telling me the names of this territory.  And — I went  28 with him and I packed his pack for him and we went to  29 Xsu wii lax loobit, up Xsu wii lax loobit, Boulder  30 Creek, and we went and he was telling me the names of  31 places and the mountains and he showed me where the  32 boundary was and we went up towards the mountains.  We  33 go up where we — we go up towards the mountains and  34 we pass, they had little falls and then not far from  35 this falls is a cabin that belongs to Haalus.  I was  36 with his brother at that time, Gwa'aa yee, we went  37 around and we got to the boundary between Haalus and  38 Wii Hlengwax and this is where another cabin was  39 situated at.  And when we got to the cabin, this cabin  40 belongs to Haalus and his brother and he told me that  41 this was the boundary between Haalus and Wii Hlengwax  42 then we went and turned around and mountain to where  43 we — and we got to where we started from and this is  44 how he showed me all these boundaries.  I have never  45 heard — I am 80 years old now and I have never heard  46 that Yal had had any territory at Wii Hlengwax or Wii  47 Sganist or Hax Bagwootxw and I have never heard this. 363  S. Williams (For Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Ms. Koenigsberg  1 This is the reason Hax Bagwootxw has the territory  2 he has now.  He married into Wii Hlengwax's house and  3 Wii Hlengwax gave him that part of the land from — it  4 starts from Boulder Creek and then goes to Xsisgamagaa  5 and then goes to Wii Sganist.  This is what we call  6 Yuu gwilatxw.  It was given to Hax Bagwootxw because  7 he was married, married a woman from the house of Wii  8 Hlengwax.  When this woman dies from the house of Wii  9 Hlengwax, then that land would be rightfully returned  10 to Wii Hlengwax and this is our law.  11 Q  Yesterday I asked you to identify a letter with your  12 signature appended to it, along with other chiefs and  13 I am just showing you — maybe Mr. Grant would show  14 you a copy of that again — so that I can — I am  15 going to ask you another question about it.  Do you  16 want to put it in front of him?  17 MR. GRANT:  Yes.  Which one are you referring to?  18 MS. KOENIGSBERG:  The letter he signed.  The letter dated  19 February 2nd, 1986.  20 MR. GRANT:  Yes, I have got that.  I just want to see what your  21 reference is.  22 MS. KOENIGSBERG:  To Rick Marshall, conservation officer.  23 Q  Gwis gyen, do you remember yesterday we were talking  24 about this letter which you signed along with other  25 hereditary chiefs to the conservation officer about  26 the territory that we have been talking about?  27 MR. GRANT:  He said he signed it.  He could not recognize the  28 signatures of anybody else.  He signed it, yes.  29 MS. KOENIGSBERG:  I was just trying to identify it.  He wasn't  30 the only person that signed it.  31 A  Yes, I signed that.  32 Q  And did you sign that because you were, you wished to  33 be heard to say that the territory that we have been  34 describing this morning belongs to Haalus?  35 MR. GRANT:  Well, just wait a minute.  He has described two  36 territories, one of them he has described as Hax  37 Bagwootxw and he has just given a detailed description  38 and the other one he described as Haalus.  In fact he  39 described three, because he also referred to Wii  40 Hlengwax.  So I think you have to be precise about  41 which portion you are talking about.  Because this,  42 you know, this document, you referred at the beginning  43 and I have had a chance to look at this file, you  44 referred at the beginning, this morning, to Whiskey  45 Creek, Boulder Creek and Price Creek and there is a  46 map in this file, what it has is a dotted line which  47 refers to a trapline.  Purports to be referring to a 364  S. Williams (For Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Ms. Koenigsberg  1 trapline, under the name of Tordiffe in 1926.  2 not, from my reading of this, what's being discussed  3 here.  Because if you look — unfortunately, it's  4 illegible so I could not make it out, at least on my  5 copy it is, but what's being discussed here is a  6 registration in the name of Joshia Bright and that  7 registration is in different wording than the  8 Tordiffe, I think it's a cancellation.  It is.  I am  9 not trying to block you but I don't want you to  10 miss — I want you to be careful of what you are  11 saying, he has — because he has now given  12 descriptions of three territories of three different  13 people.  This letter refers to a Joshia Bright  14 registration, which is different — well, as I say,  15 from what I can read it appears different.  But that  16 document I can't even see if it's an application, so  17 it's illegible in this file.  So if you want to talk  18 to him about the Joshia Bright area, that's fine, with  19 reference to this letter.  But that's what the letter  20 on its face refers to.  21 MS. KOENIGSBERG:  Let me ask it this way:  I think the only way  22 that I can deal with this fairly and properly, because  23 there is probably an overlap of areas between  24 territories and as described in the material that's  25 been put in in chief and traplines.  The letter that I  26 am asking the witness about and that I would like him  27 to refer to, refers to, and I quote from it:  "The  28 whole historical areas of trapline 0609-T056.  29 MR. GRANT:  Where are you referring to?  30 MS. KOENIGSBERG:  The first paragraph at the very last line.  31 It's again referred to at the bottom paragraph, and I  32 will read that part and I will — again it says:  33 "According to my claim, with the whole family or my  34 clan, with histories which has been duly recognized  35 and affirmed by the undersigned high chiefs, I hereby  36 declare that that Yal family have no right to claim  37 0609-T056."  And that trapline number is referred to  38 again in the next line.  39 MR. GRANT:  And there is no way of telling from this letter when  40 it says my claim of my family or the whole clan what's  41 being referred to as many high chiefs.  But where  42 there is a space for a signature there is no  43 signature.  44 MS. KOENIGSBERG:  All I think — well, I am going to back up  45 now.  46 Q  When you signed this letter, Chief Gwis gyen, what  47 area did you understand was being claimed by the Yal 365  S. Williams (For Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Ms. Koenigsberg  1 family and clan that you were saying did not belong to  2 the Yal family and clan?  3 MR. GRANT:  I — before the witness answers, I have no objection  4 to him answering, I want this letter read to him and  5 translated to him in its entirety.  Because that's the  6 only way for you to fairly ask questions about it.  We  7 are talking about something that he has not had an  8 opportunity to read or have read to him.  9 MS. KOENIGSBERG:  Let's back up a minute.  10 MR. GRANT:  I don't mind going off the record to do that.  11 MS. KOENIGSBERG:  That might be a very good idea but before that  12 I want to ask him:  13 Q  Chief Gwis gyen, we have been looking at a letter  14 which you have some recollection of that you told us  15 about yesterday where you signed.  Before you signed  16 that letter, do you remember if it was read to you and  17 translated to you?  18 A  Yes, they read it.  19 Q  All right.  And can you — I am going to ask the  20 interpreter to read this whole letter to you, off the  21 record, but before that, I want to ask you what your  22 recollection is of the area that was being referred to  23 in this letter that you were saying when you signed  24 it, did not belong to the Yal family?  25 A  It's really not Bob Jackson junior, it's Yal and he  26 claimed the place called Luum an tsim 'Din.  27 Q  Is there an English translation for the word?  28 A  That's the name of the territory.  29 MR. GRANT:  That's the name of a territory.  It's on — just a  30 moment.  31 THE TRANSLATOR:  It's N.  32 A  And it belongs to Haakxw.  33 MS. KOENIGSBERG:  Okay.  If we can go off the record and if this  34 letter could be read to the witness in its entirety.  35 MR. GRANT:  You have some more questions on the letter?  36 MS. KOENIGSBERG:  Yes.  37 MR. GRANT:  I agree.  38 (OFF THE RECORD DISCUSSION)  39 (PROCEEDINGS ADJOURNED AND RESUMED FOLLOWING RECESS)  40 MS. KOENIGSBERG:  41 Q  Chief Gwis gyen, has the entire letter been translated  42 to you?  43 MR. GRANT:  Maybe the interpreter could answer.  44 THE INTERPRETER:  Yes, it is.  And he says that, he says I know  45 this letter, he says these are the names of the chiefs  46 that signed and they are the chiefs that know the —  47 that know the territory and they know how it's been 366  S. Williams (For Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Ms. Koenigsberg  1 passed on.  There is some from Kitwancool and then  2 Gitsegukla.  3 Q  I want to ask you roughly what territory it is that  4 this letter covers, and I want to ask you this way:  5 Does it cover from near the Seven Sisters, bounded on  6 the west by Price Creek, on the east by Whiskey Creek,  7 and to the north up to the Skeena?  Are those creeks I  8 mentioned and the Skeena and the north, and the Seven  9 Sisters on the south, roughly bounding the area that  10 we are talking about in this letter? Price Creek on  11 the west?  I mean the east.  Sorry.  12 A  On the east.  13 MR. GRANT:  I suggest you may want to restate it because you got  14 your sides, I think, backwards.  15 MS. KOENIGSBERG:  All right.  Let's start again.  16 Q  On the west, Whiskey Creek, to the south the Seven  17 Sisters, to the east, Price Creek, and toward the  18 north, the Skeena.  19 A  Yes, it is that part.  I could never change the  20 boundaries of these territories that have been passed  21 on from generation to generation.  I was taught these  22 by my elders, and I am only telling you what they have  23 told me.  I can't mix up all these territories and  24 this is not for me to do.  And I know that this  25 territory that goes from Boulder Creek to Price Creek  26 and up to Gitsegukla, this is Haalus's, it goes around  27 to the mountains and it passed Hlihlguuhlxw sganist  28 and this is Haalus's, Gaas taa gantxwit belongs to  29 Haalus and Wii Hlengwax has nothing to do with this.  30 Q  When you signed this letter, when it was read over to  31 you, do you recall who read it to you?  32 A  We made up this letter when we had a meeting and it  33 was discussed at a meeting what was on it, and we —  34 this was the Simgigyet law to have a meeting and have  35 a discussion and then we put it on paper.  36 Q  When it was put on paper, do you know who put it on  37 paper?  38 A   I called Dr. Williams and he made this letter out.  If  39 you want any trouble with this letter, then I will —  40 if you want some more trouble with this letter, then I  41 will call Dr. Williams and then we will have more  42 trouble.  43 Q  do you mean, is it Dr. Peter Williams?  44 A  Yes.  45 Q  And did you see any of the other hereditary chiefs  46 sign this letter when you signed it?  47 A  I was at the table, I was at the table when this paper 367  S. Williams (For Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Ms. Koenigsberg  1 was signed by each of the chiefs.  2 Q  Now I just have one other question in this area.  3 Earlier you referred to an area as belonging to Ha^  4 Bagwootxw and I just wanted to confirm that you are  5 referring to the territory known as the B territory in  6 your affidavit.  Was that territory that you were  7 referring to — perhaps I could have it pronounced for  8 me.  9 THE TRANSLATOR:  Hlihl guuhl sganist.  10 MS. KOENIGSBERG:  11 Q  Hlihl guuhl sganist, is that the territory you say  12 that Hax bagwootxw received because he married into  13 the family?  14 A  Yes.  And, yes, it's true and when this woman, Noxs Ax.  15 g_oot dies, then that territory returns back to the  16 rightful owner, Wii Hlengwax.  And Hax bagwootxw  17 didn't do this, he didn't return the territory.  18 Q  Are you aware that Ken Harris, as Hax Bagwootxw, gave  19 permission to Robert Jackson junior to register the  20 trapline which covers the area that we are discussing?  21 A  You mean Wii sganist?  22 Q  No, I mean the area that we are discussing in the  23 letter.  The trapline that's mentioned.  24 MR. GRANT:  Well, just a second.  Just a second here.  I take it  25 you are referring to a notation that's in one of the  26 documents here?  27 MS. KOENIGSBERG:  Yes.  But I think I am entitled to ask the  28 question if he is aware of such a thing and if he is  29 not aware of that then he can tell me.  30 MR. GRANT:  I have no problem with that.  But I think when you  31 are asking it, I think you should give — he says "...  32 grant permission to my nephew."  33 MS. KOENIGSBERG:  I don't care how he did it.  It is for that  34 trapline.  35 MR. GRANT:  It is, with respect, it is in control of Wii sganist  36 and I think that's how Hax Bagwootxw said it, things  37 you think may not be distinctive may be distinctive to  38 Hax Bagwootxw and the witness.  He gave — Hax  39 Bagwootxw purports, if this notation is correct, and  40 is Hax Bagwootxw, if that's what you are referring to,  41 then it is reference to the Wii sganist.  He says  42 increase, grant permission to my nephew to registrar  43 and use as a trapline a portion of Wii sganist as  44 registered in his name.  Because —  45 MS. KOENIGSBERG:  I am going to ask the question the way I  46 framed it and the witness can straighten me out if I  47 am wrong.  He may not be aware of it. 368  S. Williams (For Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Ms. Koenigsberg  1 MR. GRANT:  With respect, the witness can't straighten you out  2 if you are wrong.  I am straightening you out.  You  3 are relying on this document, he doesn't say he is  4 registering the territory, trapline.  There is three  5 territories in that registered trapline, if this is  6 the statement, you are misleading the witness with the  7 question and I want you to frame that question and I  8 will object to the question until you frame it up —  9 unless you are saying there is some other document  10 that says I give him everything.  I object to the  11 question and I am not going to allow the witness to  12 answer the question as you have — because it's  13 misleading.  14 MS. KOENIGSBERG:  Your objection is on the record and I am going  15 to ask the question and the witness can give me  16 whatever answer is the truthful answer to my question.  17 MR. GRANT:  I want you to put this — if this is the statement  18 you are relying on, I want you to put that to the  19 witness.  It's only fair.  20 MS. KOENIGSBERG:  I am not going to.  You may do that in  21 re-examination, if you feel you haven't sufficiently  22 re-examined on this area.  23 MR. GRANT:  I haven't --  for the record, none of this  24 interjection by myself has been translated to the  25 witness.  I don't know that the witness appreciates  26 what I am saying.  I think it's only fair that this  27 statement that you are relying on be translated to the  28 witness before you put the question to him.  Because  29 it's not what — I don't read that as saying what you  30 are saying it says.  31 MS. KOENIGSBERG:  I understand you have a different  32 interpretation of it, Mr. Grant, and your  33 interpretation can be put to the witness in re-  34 examination.  I do not think it's proper for you to  35 interfere with my cross-examination in this way.  36 MR. GRANT:  I am on only objecting — I am objecting where you  37 mislead.  38 MS. KOENIGSBERG:  I call it interference and I object to you  39 saying I am misleading.  I will ask the question  40 again:  41 q  Were you aware, Chief Gwis gyen, whether Hax  42 Bagwootxw, Ken Harris, gave permission to Robert  43 Jackson junior to register the trapline which is  44 referred to in the letter which you signed?  45 A  I have no knowledge of this.  They don't tell me  46 nothing.  And I only know that they made a register on  47 Haalus and Wii Hlengwax's territory.  Hax Bagwootxw is 369  S. Williams (For Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Ms. Koenigsberg  1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  MR,  MR,  MR,  MS.  MS,  MR.  MS.  in my house, and I have more power than he has, and he  is going around saying that he is the head chief of  the house, which is not true, he is only lying to  himself.  Whatever I say, they are supposed to do and  this is the reason why this letter was put out.  I do  not want them to take anybody's trapline or territory.  GRANT:  Did he say trapline or territory?  A  No, territory.  GRANT:  Territory.  Thank you.  A  We have our own territory in Gitsegukla, they could  use that territory and it's not for them to steal  anybody's territory.  And if it was in the olden days,  in the ancient times, then young Bob could be killed  by now — would be killed by now.  As he is causing  trouble amongst the people.  Q  Did you attend a meeting held February 26th, 1986 of  your house at which this dispute over the territory  was discussed?  GRANT:  At Eli Turner's house, I presume?  KOENIGSBERG:  Yes, it was.  A  I wasn't there at Eli Turner's house.  Who was all  there?  Is there the names mentioned?  KOENIGSBERG:  Q  Yes, some, I guess.  The persons there were Ken  Harris, Phillip Turner, Lily Jackson — I can't read  the other name, an another person with the name of  Jackson, Eli Turner and Robert B. Jackson junior are  the names that I can read.  GRANT.-  Vince Jackson I think is the name.  KOENIGSBERG:  Vince Jackson.  Q  But you were not present?  A  No.  They were planning how to steal the territory,  this is why they had this meeting.  Q  I'd now like to ask you about another area and it's  the territory E, which is a territory described as  belonging to Luulak, and I believe — I will ask for a  pronunciation of the name, Xsi Galdii Ess.  I just  want to ask about that particular territory.  Do you  know that there is a registered trapline which covers  the northern one-half of that territory?  A  Yes, I know the Whale, the Whale did this, they have  no business doing this because they belong to the Wolf  Clan and that territory belongs to the Frog Clan.  They originated from Galdo'o or Kisgagas.  I am not  too sure where they are really from, although Kisgagas  or Galdo'o,but they have no business registering this  land that is way over towards Gitwingax. 370  S. Williams (For Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Ms. Koenigsberg  1 Q  The territory that you are thinking of, does it  2 include Xsi Galdii Ess?  3 A  I thought we were talking about all this.  4 Q  There is a whole territory, a northern half and a  5 southern half, and I wonder when he he is talking  6 about, the Whales claiming it — I think he is talking  7 about the southern half.  8 A  Who registered the territory?  9 Q  The southern part.  10 A  Tell me the name.  11 Q  I don't know the names, except one name, which is Abel  12 Oakes, who is now deceased, I understand.  And I  13 understand that Wilfred Wale has it now.  I just want  14 to establish if he is referring to the southern part  15 of that whole territory, which is depicted on map E,  16 that that's the one that he knows the Whales have made  17 a claim to?  18 A  Which side, the upper, sides or the lower part?  19 Q  This part.  20 A  Yes, that's all this.  21 Q  I want to ask you if you know any of these persons I  22 am going to name:  C. S. Tardliffe?  23 A  No.  24 Q  do you know a James Wallington?  25 A  No.  26 Q  George Hayward?  27 A  You are talking in the wrong place.  I know now.  28 That's behind Seven Sisters you are talking about.  29 What's wrong with you, why don't you talk about this  30 here? You just like snakes, like this.  31 Q  I am referring now to traplines —  32 A  Don't make me mad, madam.  33 Q  If you will just answer my questions.  34 MR. GRANT:  Just — he is -- he is explaining what the problem  35 is.  I think you should frame up your question in a  36 way that he knows where you are talking about.  That's  37 what he is expressing.  38 MS. KOENIGSBERG:  I don't think I need your help and I would  39 appreciate it if you don't insist on having the last  40 15 paragraphs of this conversation.  41 MR. GRANT:  I don't need those comments, Miss Koenigsberg.  42 MS. KOENIGSBERG:  43 q  I would like now to refer the witness to what I  44 understand is the top part of the territory, which is  45 an E.  And if he knows any of the people that I  46 understand have registered a trapline on that part.  I  47 simply first wish to know if you knew of any of those 371  S. Williams (For Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Ms. Koenigsberg  1 people.  But I understand they registered a trapline  2 which covers the top part of territory E.  3 A  It's behind Seven Sisters.  4 MR. GRANT:  The witness is correct.  5 MS. KOENIGSBERG:  6 Q  Yes, you can describe it as behind.  I did not  7 understand that it would be behind.  8 A  Gordon Hayward registered that line, he is stealing  9 that trapline.  10 Q  Do you know who Gordon Hayward is?  11 A  I know him, he is from in Gitwingax.  12 Q  He is from Gitwing_ax_?  13 A  Right now.  14 MR. GRANT:  He said he is from in Gitwingax.  15 MS. KOENIGSBERG:  16 Q  Do you know a person by the name of Benjamin Sweet?  17 A  No.  18 Q  Is it George or Gordon Hayward?  19 A  That's Gordon Hayward.  20 Q  Is he a Gitksan people?  21 A  He is one of the bohunks down there.  22 Q  He is a white person, that's what you mean?  23 A  Bohunks wouldn't be black.  24 Q  I just want to be clear now and I want to ask you  25 again about the bottom part of territory E, it is the  26 bottom part of territory E that you referred to as  27 knowing that the Whales were claiming; is that  28 correct?  29 A  Yes, that the Little Oliver and the Hayward is above  30 Big Oliver.  31 Q  Thank you.  Now I want to change the subject.  32 A  No, I like to say this — clear this.  33 Q  You have something else you want to say?  34 A  In the beginning, Luulak and Dax_ juxw owned the  35 territory below Big Oliver.  And this is in the  36 beginning.  They have a cabin there and they — they  37 go towards Big Oliver, along Big Oliver.  And there is  38 a little reserve there near the highway and that  39 belongs to Luulak.  This is thousands of years ago,  40 way before the white people came, Luulak and Dajc juxw  41 were friends with Gubihl gan and they went to visit  42 him towards Little Oliver.  They went to visit their  43 friend Gubihl .gan and when they got to their place, to  44 Gubihl £an's place, they seen the lady was sitting  45 beside the body and Gubihl gan died and the body was  46 getting spoiled.  The lady didn't know what to do with  47 the body, so she just sat there and she didn't know 372  S. Williams (For Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Ms. Koenigsberg  1 how to get it back to Gitsilis.  This is where they  2 were from.  The lady explained to Luulak and Dax_ juxw  3 that he has been dead for a few days and the body was  4 getting spoiled so what Dax^ juxw and Luulak did, they  5 got some dry logs, firewood, and they piled it up and  6 then they start burning it, when it started burning  7 they put the body of Gubihl g_an in it, they cremate  8 the body there.  After the body was all burnt, there  9 was just his heart was just left, like they all say  10 that the heart doesn't really burn when they burn the  11 dead, so they always would take the heart and they  12 would bury the heart and this is what they did, they  13 buried it near the river.  They took the lady and her  14 child to Gitwingax_ and they had a small feast and at  15 this feast they told what had happened, and what had  16 happened to the lady's husband.  The next day they  17 said they were going to bring this lady back to  18 Gitsilis, and the whole village knew that they were  19 leaving so they took the canoe and they put her in the  20 canoe and they took her back to Gitsilis.  When the  21 lady got back to Gitsilis she told her husband's  22 relatives what had been done and what had happened and  23 how these two people helped out, Dax. juxw and Luulak.  24 The relative of Gubihl Gan and the relative of his  25 wife were appreciate, really appreciated what they had  26 done, they have done, what Luulak and Da:x juxw had  27 done to help the women out.  The head chief of Gubihl  28 Gan, to show his appreciation, he stood up and he  29 announced that in appreciation of how they have  30 cremated Gubihl Gan, he gave the territory Xsi Galdii  31 Ess to Dax juxw and his brother Luulak.   And this is  32 the territory that the Whales have tried to claim.  33 This is not right, because there has been a lot of  34 expenses on this land, expenses with money, ever since  35 the name has been passed on from generation to  36 generation.  There have been a lot of Luulak that have  37 spent so much for this territory and there must be  38 millions of dollars spent on this territory.  This is  39 what the Gitsilis people said last year, they said  40 that this was Gubihl Gan's territory so what I did, I  41 went to travel to Gitsilis and I told them that this  42 territory, I told them what had happened and that this  43 territory was given by Gubihl Gan's chief because of  44 what Dax Joxw and Luulak cremated the body of Gubihl  45 Gan.  That's all.  46 Q  Thank you.  47 A  You're welcome. 373  S. Williams (For Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Ms. Koenigsberg  1 Q  I'd like to change the subject and I would like to  2 clarify a few things that we talked about yesterday.  3 Yesterday I asked you about Mary Ann Harris, and I  4 would like to know if you know a person by the name of  5 Victoria Harris?  6 THE INTERPRETER:  What was the question?  7 Q  If he knows Victoria Harris as opposed to Mary Ann  8 Harris?  9 A  Yes, that's Mary and her name is Mary Ann Victoria.  10 Q  My next question was, was it the same person?  11 Thank you.  And did you know Thomas Harris?  12 A  Yes, I know him, he is my cousin, that's the nephew of  13 my father.  14 Q  And so he would be in your father's house, would have  15 been in your father's house?  16 A  Yes.  That's the son of my father's sister.  17 Q  And I asked you some questions yesterday about David  18 Wells, and I just want to ask you one or two more  19 questions about David Wells.  Do you know about David  20 Wells receiving logging contracts?  21 A  Yes, I know this, I was working for David about a mile  22 up Gitwingax.  He had a horse named Tk'ot.  23 Q  Were you a member of the — you told us you were, for  24 a number of years, on the band council, were you a  25 member of a band council that granted David Wells  26 logging contracts to log on Kitwanga reserves?  27 A  No, I wasn't in the council at that time.  28 Q  When you were working with him or for him, were you  29 working on a logging contract on any of the Kitwanga  30 reserve?  31 A  No, I wasn't working for him, it was a different  32 logging contract.  It's way above the five mile one.  33 I was the one that hauled the logs for David.  Or  34 poles.  35 Q  And I have just one more question, I think:  Do you  36 know a chief's name — completely different subject —  37 a chief's name, and I have two spellings for it, and I  38 have no idea how you would pronounce it, Q-A-W-Q, or  39 Q-O-Q, Qoq?  Do you know that as a chief's name?  40 A  What you sayw, Qawq, Qawq?  41 Q  No, just one Qawq.  42 A  Qoq, maybe it's referred to Sakxum higookx, short for  43 Sakxum higookx.  That's how they say his name at  44 times, like Wii Hlengwax, you don't see the Wii.  It's  45 the same as 300k, Sakxum higookx.  46 q  it could be short for Sakxum higookx?  47 A   Yes. 374  S. Williams (For Plaintiffs)  Re-exam by Mr. Grant  1 Q  Let me clarify, when you say you worked for David  2 Wells, about what time period was that?  3 A  It's been such a long time, I just don't remember how  4 many number of years it is.  I didn't know at that  5 time that I was going to be asked if I was working for  6 David Wells.  7 MS. KOENIGSBERG:  Those are all the questions I have.  Thank  8 you.  9  10 (PROCEEDINGS ADJOURNED FOR SHORT RECESS)  11 ■  12 RE-EXAMINATION BY MR. GRANT:  13  14 MR. GRANT:  15 Q  Mr. Williams, Gwis gyen, I am going to ask you some  16 questions that arose out of the questions asked you by  17 Mr. Plant and Ms. Koenigsberg and I will refer to the  18 subject they asked you about.  You may remember that  19 last week when Mr. Plant asked you a whole bunch of  20 questions about adoption and at one point he asked you  21 about George Williams and he asked you and you  22 explained that George Williams was raised by your  23 mother after George's own mother, Mary Ann, died.  Is  24 there a Gitksan word for George being taken in by your  25 mother, that is being taken in my his aunt in the same  26 house, is there a Gitksan word for that?  27 A  When George's mother and father died, my mother took  28 him in and this — this is called Sihlguuhlxws.  She  29 also adopt him in a Feast House and gave him a name  30 and he is my brother.  31 Q  That adoption in the Feast House, and giving him a  32 name, is that also called Sihlguuhlxws in that  33 situation?  34 A  Yes, that's the same.  35 Q  But George was born -- is it correct that George was  36 born into the house of Gwis gyen and even after the  37 adoption, stayed in the house of Gwis gyen?  38 A  This was my grandmother's grandchild, and this is why  39 my mother took George in.  40 Q  Now, the reason I have asked you about George is  41 because there was a long series of questions about  42 your own mother.  And you said that the adoption, the  43 kind of adoption that took place between your mother  44 and the wife of Sakxum higookx was called  45 Sihlguuhlxws?  46 A  Yes, this is what they call this kind of adoption,  47 Sihlguuhlxws. 375  S. Williams (For Plaintiffs  Re-exam by Mr. Grant  1 Q  You then described that you did not know who Sakxum  2 higookx's wife was and your mother told you this.  Did  3 your mother tell you whether she stayed in Gwis gyen's  4 house after that adoption?  5 A  Yes, she was always in the house of Gwis gyen.  6 Q  If she was adopted by Sakxum hogookx's wife and stayed  7 in the house of Gwis gyen, would it be correct or can  8 I assume that Sakxum hogookx's wife was in the house  9 of Gwis gyen?  10        A  I really — I don't know her clan, my mother's, foster  11. mother's clan, but what she told me is that my  12 grandmother married Wixa, and they have three girls,  13 Solomon's mother and Wixa and Richard Fowler's mother  14 and my mother.  And Sakxum higookx would ask my  15 grandparents to adopt my mother and they did that for  16 a long time before my grandmother let my mother go and  17 this is all I know, this is what I was told.  But I  18 wasn't told what clan she belonged to.  When Wixa  19 died, then my mother paid most of the expenses, she  20 helped out the family of Wixa.  This is the reason why  21 the relatives of Wixa gave this territory, Txaas 'wii  22 lax habaasxw to my mother.  I know the laws of our  23 people, the Gitksan people, Aluugigyet, and I know the  24 laws, so that when my mother passed on I held a chief,  25 I paid all the expenses and then I announced in the  26 feast hall that the land that my mother was giving to,  27 the land that my mother used, was — I returned this  28 back to the rightful owner.  29 Q  Okay.  I would like to go to another subject now that  30 you were asked about by Mr. Plant.  31 You were asked —  32 MS. KOENIGSBERG:  What transcript and what page, please?  33 MR. GRANT:  Page 226.  34  35 "Q  Did — do Kliiyem lax haa and Wii 'mugulsxw come  36 from the same house?  I know you say they are in  37 the same wil'na t'ahl, are they in the same house  38 or did they have their own house, separate houses?"  39  40 And then I interject and then-.  41  42 "MR. PLANT:  43 Q  Well, if there is a difference, then let's start  44 with today?"  45  46 And then the answer was:  47 376  S. Williams (For Plaintiffs)  Re-exam by Mr. Grant  1 "A  In the ancient time their houses were side by  2 side, but today they have their own house.  3 Wii'mugulsxw has his own house and Kliiyem lax haa  4 has her own house."  5  6 Now, I will just have that read to you, translated  7 to you and I have marked it out, lines 31 to 41, you  8 don't have to worry about my interjection.  Then I  9 will ask you a question about it.  10 MR. GRANT:  He started the answer after you asked?  11 THE INTERPRETER:  Yes.  12 A  Today, they have their own houses.  In the ancient  13 times their houses, they have these long houses and  14 one family would live in this long house.  And Wii  15 mugulsxw and Kliiyem lax haa were quite close, they  16 were just like brothers and sisters back then.  17 Q  My question to you, and I only read this so you could  18 understand what I was referring to, so counsel would  19 know what I was referring to, my question to you is:  20 After the arrival of the white man, in other words,  21 say the time of your father even, did Wii mugulsxw and  22 Kliiyem lax haa know that were side by side in Kispiox  23 when your father was growing up?  24 A  After the arrival of the white people, they live in  25 separate houses, like today, and what happened was  26 when my father married, he gave — he left Kispiox and  27 he gave the house to his brother Robert and moved to  28 Gitwing_ax_.  29 Q  When you were young in Gitwingax were there longhouses  30 were families lived together, when you were growing  31 up?  32 A  I was quite small when I seen one of the longhouses  33 that belonged to Chief Wii Hlengwax.  I also seen  34 Chief Sima diiks's house, they had this long house and  35 they made rooms on the upper part and then they would  36 use the lower part for feasts.  37 Q  Maybe I will ask this question of madam interpreter:  38 Can you give me the name for crest, the Gitksan name  39 for crest?  40 THE INTERPRETER:  Ayuks.  41 Q  And can you give me the Gitksan name for laws?  42 THE INTERPRETER:  Ayook_.  43 MR. GRANT:  Could you just give us the number references for  44 those? Are they different words, madam interpreter?  45 THE INTERPRETER:  Yes, they are.  Ayuks is 361 and Ayook is not  46 there.  It's spelled A-Y-O-O-K, underlined.  47 MR. GRANT:  And Ayoojk is the word for law? 377  S. Williams (For Plaintiffs)  Re-exam by Mr. Grant  1 THE INTERPRETER:  Hm-hmm.  2 MR. GRANT:  3 Q  You were asked by Mr. Plant whether you were aware of  4 any instance where the death penalty was applied to a  5 white man by a Gitksan for trespass and you said no.  6 My question to you is:  Do you know if the death  7 penalty for trespass was used after the arrival of the  8 white man in the Gitksan territory?  9 MS. KOENIGSBERG:  Just for the record, I am going to object to  10 the question because it was covered and I don't think  11 it arises.  12 MR. GRANT:  You can read that question to him, that's the  13 question Mr. Plant asked you, but of course my  14 question is different.  15 MS. KOENIGSBERG:  What page are you referring to?  16 MR. GRANT:  234.  17 A  They might have used, they might have done this after  18 the arrival of the white people.  But I do not know if  19 they did or not.  But they might have.  20 Q  You were asked questions about Delores and your son  21 Buddy and their adoption.  Was Delores and Buddy  22 adopted by your wife into Haalus's house or by you  23 into Gwis gyen's house?  24 A  When Buddy was just a baby, first born, Mathias Bright  25 carried him around in the Feast House and he said that  26 he would take this little boy and look after him so he  27 would be the one to look after the territory that he  28 owned.  And I was the one that spent a lot of money  29 helping out Mathias at the feast, because at this  30 feast it was announced that Buddy was — would be the  31 one to succeed the chief's name and he would be the  32 one to look after the territories of Haalus.  As soon  33 as Buddy started talking, I started teaching him  34 everything that I know about the territories and the  35 names of the territories, everything that I was taught  36 and Buddy was quite intelligent, he knew what I was  37 talking about, and he kept it in mind.  And I did the  38 same thing to Arthur Mathews junior and he, he is  39 alive now and Buddy is gone today.  Whatever I told  40 Buddy, he would always remember and keep it in mind  41 and whenever we would hold a feast he would stand up  42 and talk and everybody in the feast, feast hall would  43 be amazed of the knowledge that this young man had.  44 It's the same thing with Delores, I adopted Delores.  45 I adopted her and Harriet Basso.  I trained Delores  46 the way I trained Buddy and Arthur Mathews junior, and  47 I told her the manner, the manner of a high prince, 378  S. Williams (For Plaintiffs)  Re-exam by Mr. Grant  1 how she is supposed to carry herself in the Feast  2 House and how she is supposed to talk and I told here  3 that it was -- it is not for a prince to talk loudly  4 in the Feast Hall or to talk loudly amongst the other  5 elders, and this is what I taught her and she kept all  6 this in mind.  7 I should have said princess to begin with.  I told  8 her that the — how a high princess would act and she  9 did do this.  She would — all the people liked  10 Delores, because of the way she acted, she followed my  11 advice and the way she carried herself and she could  12 talk softly to the people and then if they would not  13 understand this, she would use English, then she would  14 use Indian, so as everybody would understand her.  She  15 died by drowning.  16 Q  Now, you were asked by Mr. Plant about a reference to  17 when you fish at the coast you called it "our waters"  18 and you were asked why you called it our waters.  Did  19 you — were you taught whether Gitksan people fished  20 at the coast before the arrival of the white man?  21 MS. KOENIGSBERG:  I object to that question.  It was asked and  22 it was answered.  23 A  The Skeena, which is known as Xsan, starts way up and  24 then it goes to the coast and then the people living  25 along the Skeena are known as Gitxsan, that means  26 people of the Skeena, and where the mouth — and this  27 is why — where the mouth runs out is the Xsan at the  28 coast.  They fished along the Skeena right to the  29 mouth of the Skeena at the coast.  They used the fish  30 traps.  There was a smoke house at Aberdeen — a  31 fishing cannery at Aberdeen and this is when the white  32 people first came here, they started a fishing cannery  33 at Aberdeen and this is how all the canneries started.  34 MR. GRANT:  35 Q  Just a moment.  I just want to, because I don't want  36 you — you have explained that and that was the  37 question, to my recollection, that Mr. Plant asked you  38 or you answered.  My question was:  Did the Gitksan  39 fish at the mouth of the Skeena before the arrival of  40 the white man, before the first white man came?  41 A  That was the Ts'imxsan people.  42 q  Now, you were asked by Mr. Plant some questions about  43 your pole and you referred to the pole, I think you  44 pronounce it K'il haast?  45 A  K'il haast.  46 q  And I just want to clarify, was that pole of Gwis gyen  47 erected after Gwis gyen moved down from T'am lax_ amit 379  S. Williams (For Plaintiffs)  Re-exam by Mr. Grant  1 to Gitsegukla? When, in other words, was it first  2 erected, when Gwis gyen was at Gitsegukla or was it  3 erected when Gwis gyen was at T'am lax  amit?  4 A  T'am lajc amit was the ancient village of our people  5 and this is where the K'il haast was erected.  They  6 seen this large Fireweed at Luumin Gigukla, they seen  7 this and then they brought it back to T'am lajc amit  8 and this is when they erected this pole.  After the  9 flood, people were dispersed all over the place, and  10 they landed at Gitsegukla, where Gitsegukla village is  11 now, and when there was a flood the people took their  12 crests with them, and they, after the flood, they  13 erected this pole at Gitsegukla.  And this is where  14 Gwis gyen, after the flood, Gwis gyen's house moved,  15 which is known as 'Yax 'yagaa huuwaalp.  16 Q  Now, you were asked, page 243, you were asked by Mr.  17 Plant about Xjagwinsxw, which occurs when a person or  18 a chief dies, did Xjagwinsxw occur when a person who  19 was not a Miin simoogit or Warn simoogit died?  20 MS. KOENIGSBERG:  Again, I object to the question.  It was asked  21 and it was answered.  22 MR. GRANT:  It was not asked.  23 MS. KOENIGSBERG:  Line 33.  24 MR. GRANT:  The question I asked wasn't asked.  25 A  Xjagwinsxw occurs when anybody dies but when a high  26 chief dies, Xjagwinsxw occurs too, but there is a  27 person that walks around mourning, singing a mourning  28 song with a rattle.  At this time, when the — when  29 death occurs, the whole village is quiet.  And this is  30 what you call Xjagwinsxw gal ts'ap.  31 Q  Now you were asked by —  32 MS. KOENIGSBERG:  Could you tell me the pages, please?  33 MR. GRANT:  245.  34 Q  — by Mr. Plant, whether your mother or your aunts,  35 Marianne or Eva, could have taken the name Gwis gyen  36 and you said no, "Not my mother."  And then you, when  37 asked why, you said "she is a woman."  My question to  38 you is this:  Is that there have been in this case,  39 Gyoluugyat, Antgulilbix and Hanamuxw, who have given  40 evidence, who are all women and all chiefs.  Can a  41 woman take the chief's name under the Gitksan law?  42 A  Yes, women could have, could hold a high chief's name.  43 It happens when there is no one in the house to take  44 the name.  And this is when the women, a woman could  45 take the chief's name, Miinhl simoogit name, and this  46 is just the name I have taken, Gwis gyen.  My uncle  47 James Ryan was supposed to have taken this name and 380  S. Williams (For Plaintiffs)  Re-exam by Mr. Grant  1 they seen that he was a good man and he was supposed  2 to have taken this name, Gwis gyen.   They don't want  3 a person to make a mistake, if they just put a name on  4 somebody that's not in line, they have to know that  5 this person will have responsibility of the name and  6 to look after the responsibility of being a chief  7 before they give the chief's name out.  8 Q  We will just go off for a moment so they can change  9 the tape.  10  11 (PROCEEDINGS ADJOURNED FOR SHORT RECESS)  12  13 MR. GRANT:  14 Q  You were asked questions around page 261 of the  15 transcript by Mr. Plant about your territory and when  16 you went up there, and I am referring here to the  17 territory and, in particular, I am referring to Xsuwii  18 gwanxs, and the trail that goes along Xsuwii gwanxs to  19 which you referred and you described that you went up  20 there with your uncle Alfred McDames.  Did your uncle,  21 Alfred McDames or your grandfather, tell you whether  22 that trail was there before the first white man?  23 A  No, it wasn't there before, there was different, we  24 had different trails.  There is one trail that goes up  25 where the table was before, this is where one trail  26 went up.  This is where they go up to hunt deer and  27 ground hog and goat.  There is another trail that was  28 there before and it goes up on your right-hand side at  29 Xsuwii gwanxs and it gets to Ansi maa'y.  30 Q  And when you say these other trails were there before  31 do you mean they were there before the white man came  32 into the territory?  33 A  Yes.  34 Q  You were asked about Martha, Mool'xan, I believe it's  35 Martha Mool'xan, Mrs. Joe Brown, who held the name  36 Mool'xan, and you were asked about who held the name  37 after her death.  Did George Milton, the holder of the  38 name Haakasxw, did he care for the name Mool'xan from  39 the time of Martha Mool'xan's death until his death?  40 A  Nobody took this name.  Jacob Milton was supposed to  41 have taken this name but he didn't have enough money  42 and materials and so Haakasxw is looking after this  43 name.  They will have to do something about Mool'xan,  44 before this name is given away.  45 q  And when you say Haakasxw is looking after this name,  46 that — was that the the case, was George Milton  47 looking after the name until his death? 381  S. Williams (For Plaintiffs)  Re-exam by Mr. Grant  1 A  No, they have never finished with this name yet, they  2 haven't done anything yet for anyone to receive it and  3 it's with, Haakasxw is looking after.  4 Q  You were asked about Sam Turner, page 274, and whether  5 or not he held the name Yal.  You have described that  6 Phillip Turner moved out of — I am sorry, that George  7 Turner moved out of your house and took the name Yal.  8 When Sam Turner held the name Yal, did he move out of  9 your house as well?  10 A  Yes, he did move out, because Yal has his own house.  11 Q  You were also asked about where was Yal's village.  12 Can you tell us which village was Yal's village of  13 origin? And when I say village of origin, in ancient  14 times, at the time of Gitangasx, at the time of T'am  15 lax amit, what village was Yal's village?  16 A  He is from T'am lax_ amit but after the flood, most of  17 the people dispersed at different places and this is  18 what happened to Yal.  He is — he settled at Kispiox.  19 There was an old man who was known as T'ek'sin, he  20 was — he had the name Yal, and he was from Hazelton  21 Gitan'maaxs.  After T'ek'sin died, then David Mode  22 took the name Yal.  After David died, then Donald Mode  23 took the name Yal.  That's David's brother.  And  24 Donald Mode died then which Wilfred Gawa took the name  25 Yal.  And their house is known as Git luu hlim  26 hetxwit.  27 Q  And this description you have given of succession is  28 the Kispiox Yal; is that right?  29 A  Yes.  I remember when Luulak married a lady named Noxs  30 Seeks in Gitwingax.  Luulak's English name was  31 Jackson.  Luulak was married to Noxs Seeks, and Noxs  32 Seeks is from Kispiox and Noa:s Seeks brought along a  33 young man with her, a young child.  This was her son  34 from the former marriage that she had before.  The  35 first child she had with Jackson they called him  36 K'asbaaseeks and the — her first son that she came  37 with she called Yal.  After Yal got married, he  38 married into the house of Gwashl am in Kitwancool.  39 They lived at a place called Win uusxw ts'ak^ and this  40 is where they built their house and this is where they  41 erected a pole.  This is when Gwashlam gave the site  42 to Yal at Gwin hlekxw.  Yal did not have a territory  43 there but he was married in to Gwashlam's house and  44 this is why they gave the fishing site at Gwin hlekxw.  45 This is known as Yuu gwilatxw, because the lady is  46 from Gwashl am's house and this is why the fishing  47 site was given to Yal and that after that lady dies 382  S. Williams (For Plaintiffs)  Re-exam by Mr. Grant  1 the fish site would be returned back to Gwashlam. This  2 is the reason why we have Yal, he is counted in  3 Kitwancool.  4 Q  Now, I would like to ask you about another area just  5 for a moment.  Mr. Plant asked you Tuesday of this  6 week, he was talking to you about some territories in  7 the north and, in particular, he referred you to the  8 Xsi anx Timiiyit, the territory of Wii Hlengwax.  If  9 you crossed, Gwis gyen, if you were travelling north,  10 and you cross Xsi anx Timiiyit, and you continued  11 across, out of the territory of the Gitwingax^ chiefs  12 and into the Kitwancool chiefs, which of the  13 Kitwancool chiefs' territory would you be in?  14 A  I start at Tsim an makhl, which belongs to Yal, then  15 it goes down to Sga hawaagit, and there is a creek  16 that comes in there which is known as Xsi sga  17 hawaagit, Xsi sga hawaagit runs and then there is a  18 bigger creek that runs into Xsi sga hawaagit and then  19 it goes towards Gyehl 'Din.  20 Q  Okay.  I followed you.  What I want to ask you is  21 this, after you travel down those creeks to Xsi anx  22 Timiiyit, if you turned off of that creek before it  23 comes to Xsi gyehl 'Din and you went north, if you  24 left that creek and travelled north, you have  25 described that you would cross into the territory of  26 the Kitwancool.  Which chief's territory of the  27 Kitwancool would you be in?  28 A  I go up, there is a trail up Sga hawaagit, which I  29 take up to the mountains and on on the other side of  30 the mountain there is a creek there, and this is known  31 as Aks Gunuu, Kitwancool.  32 Q  Aks —  33 A  Aks Gunuu, that's the water of Gunuu.  34 Q  And is that the chief whose territory is there?  35 A  Yes, because Godfrey Good is Gunuu today.  36 Q  You were asked on Tuesday, by Mr. Plant, if the chiefs  37 talked to each other about what is going on in their  38 territory and you said, "We don't just talk lightly  39 about this, we talk about this when there is a feast."  40 My question to you is, and because you have described  41 things such as what happened at Luulak's territory in  42 February and other matters, my question to you is, do  43 you discuss things such as the logging and other  44 things going on in your territory outside the feast as  45 well as in the feast?  46 A  When we have discussions, we usually discuss  47 everything at the feast or we usually call a meeting 383  S. Williams (For Plaintiffs)  Re-exam by Mr. Grant  1 of the chiefs and have a discussion of the territories  2 and this is where and when we make our minds up that  3 the damage that's done on our territories will be  4 compensated by the people that have damaged our  5 territories.  6 Q  You were referred to, by Mr. Plant the other day, to a  7 letter, Exhibit 10 in these proceedings in which you  8 protested the election of Joe Daniels in 1971.  And  9 you gave evidence that in fact a new election was  10 held.  Were you told by the Indian agent, or by  11 someone else, that you could protest that election?  12 MS. KOENIGSBERG:  I object to the question.  You are inviting  13 hearsay.  14 MR. GRANT:  Go ahead.  15 A  We — the Simgigyet had a meeting and they didn't want  16 Joe Daniels to be a chief councillor because he was a  17 drunkard and a stealer and he was a bootlegger also,  18 and the Indian agent was going to report me to Ottawa  19 for what I was doing, protesting this election.  And  20 what I did is, I phoned the lawyer from B. C. Packers,  21 down Rupert and this lawyer went and talked to the  22 Indian agent, and then we got Joe Daniels out.  After  23 the — after this happened, then they had another  24 election and Joe got in because he had a lot of family  25 in Gitwingax and when he was in the village of  26 Gitwinga>c, I went down and there was no improvements  27 being made.  When Glen Williams finally got in, then  28 the village improved, it's — there is developments  29 being made on the village.  As soon as Glen got  30 into — the chief councillor, there is a big  31 improvement in the village.  We have got our hall  32 there now, that has been built, then we have running  33 water, this running water to the houses, there is a  34 big tank on top of the hill which was installed when  35 Glen became chief.  And they also have these fire  36 trucks, there is two fire trucks there now.  And there  37 is a lot of houses being built since Glen got in as  38 chief councillor.  39 Q  What I would like to ask you is, you have given  40 evidence that you knew Sima diiks, did Sima diiks ever  41 tell you that he was thrown out as the chief of  42 Gitwingajc by the Indian agent?  43 MS. KOENIGSBERG:  I object.  44 MR. GRANT:  45 q  And I refer you to a letter dated February 7th, 1910,  46 signed by R. E. Loring, the Indian agent, which says:  47 384  S. Williams (For Plaintiffs)  Re-exam by Mr. Grant  1 "To Sima diiks, this serves to notify you that any  2 authority you may, henceforth, try to exercise over  3 the people of Kitwanga is not any longer upheld by me  4 and will not meet with my sanction.  You are not fit  5 any longer to deserve my confidence and will get  6 yourself and others into very serious trouble before  7 long, if you not at once mend your ways, become a  8 sensible man, and strictly attend to your own  9 business.  10 The population of Kitwanga, itself, is law-abiding  11 and against yourself those that you are influencing to  12 live there, and aid you 'in the ways that are dark and  13 the tricks that are vain' and bring sorrow to the  14 village. Yours, R. E. Loring.  Indian Agent."  Did  15 Sima diiks — you can read that to him.  And did Sima  16 diiks every tell you that he was thrown out by the  17 Indian agent as the chief of Kitwanga?  18 MS. KOENIGSBERG:  I object most strongly.  This is taking up a  19 lot of time.  It's totally irrelevant, it does not  20 arise out of the cross-examination and this witness  21 couldn't possibly know anything about this.  He was  22 three years old when the letter was written.  23 MR. GRANT:  The only — well, we don't have to deal with the  24 objection now.  25 MS. KOENIGSBERG:  It can go in if you want.  26 A  No, I don't — he didn't tell me.  27 MS. KOENIGSBERG:  Is this document listed?  28 MR. GRANT:  Yes.  I presume it's also in your lists.  Certainly  29 something in your possession, your client's  30 possession.  31 MS. KOENIGSBERG:  Do you know what the number is?  32 MR. GRANT:  I don't have the number offhand.  But it was listed.  33 MS. KOENIGSBERG:  By you?  34 MR. GRANT:  I believe we have listed it and I believe it's also  35 located in some of your files.  I haven't located the  36 file it's in.  In fact, I believe you requested  37 production of this document about four weeks ago.  38 MS. KOENIGSBERG:  May have done.  39 THE WITNESS:   It would have been nice if you put me in jail,  40 miss.  I get free in there.  41 MR, GRANT: Okay. We're almost through here.  42 q  You talked about camping at Xsugwin biiyoosxwit on a  43 trip over to Tenimgyet's territory.  Did you camp  44 there just with — on one occasion with Art Mathews  45 junior or did you camp there on different occasions  46 with different people?  47 A  When we are travelling towards Tenimgyet's territory, 385  S. Williams (For Plaintiffs)  Re-exam by Mr. Grant  1 we would live along — any place along the Xsugwin  2 biiyoosxwit.  If it gets dark then we would make camp  3 anywhere along Xsugwin biiyoosxwit.  4 Q  When you are Xsugwin biiyoosxwit, you are talking  5 about Antgal Bakw, this is the area Gwis gyen, when  6 you are leaving the Skeena River, and travelling up  7 Xsugwin biiyoosxwit --  8 THE INTERPRETER: I missed the second word.  9 MR. GRANT:  Antgal Bakw.  It's referred to on the map J  as  10 Antgal Bakw.  It's on the angled one down.  11 Q  If you are travelling up Xsugwin Biiyoosxwit from the  12 Skeena towards Tenimgyet's territory, is Antgal Bakw  13 on your left side or your right side?  14 A  If you going up from the Skeena, up the Xsugwin  15 Biiyoosxwit, it's on your left-hand side.  16 Q  I just wanted to ask you a question, you were talking  17 again, I believe this is on Tuesday, Mr. Plant was  18 examining you and you said that people will refer to  19 corrections in adaawk and you talked about the Wiigyet  20 adaawk, the question I have to ask you is:  Have you  21 been in a feast where chiefs who were guests at the  22 feast or chiefs who were helping the head chief host  23 the feast, have corrected a description of a territory  24 that was given at the feast?  25 A  This happens, this is why there are witnesses in the  26 Feast House.  If anything is — if anything — if the  27 boundaries are described — are not described  28 correctly, then one of the chiefs will stand up and  29 say that this boundary is not described correctly.  30 Q  Have you seen this happen?  31 A  I have seen it a lot of times.  32 Q  Okay.  Now, I am just going to another area.  You were  33 asked about Sylvia Harris, who is Lily and Ken's  34 sister, and you were asked about whether she had  35 children, and I believe you couldn't recall because  36 she was away or you didn't know.  If Sylvia Harris has  37 children, would those children be in your house?  38 A  Yes, this is what happened when Sylvia was quite  39 young, she was adopted.  Her mother was Addy Clifford  40 and this is when Irene adopted her and Irene gave her  41 a name, which belongs to my house. Irene belongs to my  42 house and after she has given the name to Sylvia,  43 Sylvia belongs in my house.  And if she did have  44 children, then they are all in my house.  45 q  Now, you were asked by Mr. Plant some questions about  46 what's called interrogatories and, in particular, he  47 put a question, he put an answer to question 18 to you 386  S. Williams (For Plaintiffs)  Re-exam by Mr. Grant  1 from your interrogatories, referring to your father's  ->  father.  And I believe the interrogatory said that  3 your father's father was from the house of Wii  4 Mugulsxw and you said that was wrong.  My question is,  5 did your father's mother come from the house of Wii  6 Mugulsxw?  I should say, rephrase it, was your  7 father's mother in the house of Wii Mugulsxw.  8 A  Yes, this is the reason why my father was Wii Mugulsxw  9 house.  And if anything should happen to me, then they  10 would let Wii Mugulsxw know first and he would come  11 and get me.  12 Q  I just want to ask you a few questions about from what  13 Ms. Koenigsberg asked you yesterday and this morning.  14 She asked you about licences and showed you licences  15 and asked you about members of your house and people  16 who had aied who had fishing licences.  My question to  17 you is, why did you apply to the government for a  18 fishing licence?  19 MS. KOENIGSBERG:  I object.  Doesn't arise out of the  20 cross-examination.  21 MR. GRANT:  Sure does.  You produced all kinds of evidence on  22 the fishing licences.  23 A  We do not accept, I do not accept the permits because  24 this is our own land, our own territory.  We do not  25 want permits.  But when I go down to the coast, I have  26 to buy a licence, which cost me $800.  I pay $800 for  27 this licence to fish in order to fish I go fishing  28 near, up to Nass River, up to the — towards the  29 island, Haida Island and then to the Fraser and then  30 back to Rupert again.  And this is what I have to pay  31 to fish on my own territory.  I have already received  32 a letter saying that I have to pay $800 again for this  33 year in order to fish.  34 Q  You said at the end in your translation "on my own  35 territory"; is that what the witness said?  36 THE INTERPRETER:   Hm-hmm.  37 Q  You were asked by Ms. Koensigsberg about Saanoos, is  38 Saanoos in the same house as Duubisxw?  39 A  Yes, they are in the same house.  And they use the  40 same territory.  I went with SaanoosSpaiy dadt and Wii  41 ,Tax.  42 Q  You were talking about yesterday in questioning by Ms.  43 Koenigsberg, about the laws and you said this is the  44 law of the Simoogit, we have to ask the chiefs before  45 we do something, our laws are in each house of the  46 chiefs.  My question is this:  Are the laws to which  47 you have referred the same for all Gitksan houses or 387  S. Williams (For Plaintiffs)  Re-exam by Mr. Grant  1 does each Gitksan house have a separate set of laws?  2 MS. KOENIGSBERG:  I object to that question.  Does not arise out  3 of the cross-examination.  4 A  In Gwis gyen's house, there is the law, the law is on  5 Gwis gyen's chair.  That law is known as the law of  6 the Aluugigyet.  When someone dies, there is a feast,  7 this law is put into action.  And this law is in each  8 house of the chief and this is one common law amongst  9 all the people.  10 Q  You were asked yesterday by Ms. Koensigsberg about  11 your membership in the Anglican church and your  12 spiritual beliefs and you were asked if you believed  13 that Jesus Christ was the son of God.  And you were  14 also asked something about whether Jesus was your  15 saviour.  Does your membership or does your belief in  16 Jesus change your beliefs in your, that you have  17 described earlier, your beliefs about your spiritual  18 relationships with the territory and the beliefs you  19 described earlier such as through the Sisatxw?  20 MS. KOENIGSBERG:  I object to that question.  It doesn't arise  21 out of the cross-examination.  22 MR. GRANT:  Well, nobody in this case has yet asked about belief  23 in Jesus Christ as a saviour.  I believe it's totally,  24 entirely new.  25 A  In the ancient times, before the white man came, we  26 always believed that there was a creator, which we  27 know as Simoogit lax_ ha, and when there was any  28 suffering amongst our people they would make an  29 offering, they would build a fire and make an offering  30 and put food in the fire and they would pray.  As the  31 smoke is going up they would pray and they would pray  32 to the Simoogit lax ha, saying we are poor, look down  33 upon us, look down and help us out, and this is the  34 prayers that were said by our people.  35 q  do you still believe in the Simoogit lax ha?  36 A  I have always believed in this, in the Simoogit lax  37 ha, and he gave us our lives, and he gave us the food  38 that we survive on and it's the same with the white  39 people, they were given their lives and they were  40 given food to survive, but when he gave us food it  41 didn't come in cans, we had to get our foods.  Today,  42 I am a member in the Anglican Church but I will never  43 forget my grandfather's laws, which I hold together  44 with the member of — as a member in> that church, I  45 hold it together with that church and my grandfather's  46 beliefs.  47 q  You described that you had bought a coffin for the 388  S. Williams (For Plaintiffs)  Re-exam by Mr. Grant  1 funeral or for Silas Innes when he died, are you part  2 of Silas Innes's Wilksi'witxw?  3 A  Silas Innes is from Kitkatla, and he is not from this  4 village.  He was in — he was Lax Skiik and he went  5 with Sakxum higookx.  I know Silas, he was a friend of  6 mine and he liked me very much, George and I, and  7 before he died he gave instructions to his wife that  8 he wanted George and I to dig his grave and to buy the  9 coffin for him and this is what we did.  And this is  10 what we did, I — we bought, George and I bought the  11 coffin and we dug the grave and Alvin Weget put a  12 fence up just as a friend of Silas.  13 Q  Just a couple of more questions and then I am  14 finished.  15 You were asked this morning by Ms. Koenigsberg  16 about registered traplines and one of them was one  17 reference that you made was to Abel Oakes and this is  18 in the area of, I think it was in the area behind the  19 Seven Sisters.  Who did Abel Oakes marry?  20 A  I know the lady's name was Sarah Pick and she is  21 probably a Ts'imxsan woman and I don't know what clan  22 she belonged to.  23 Q  Do you know why Abel Oakes was down in this territory?  24 MS. KOENIGSBERG:  I object to the question.  Doesn't arise out  25 of the cross-examination.  26 A  No, I don't know.  Abel has no business in Luulak's  27 territory.  28 MR. GRANT:  29 Q  In this document, this file, produced by the province  30 and referred to by Ms. Koenigsberg, this is the file  31 regarding these — the Robert Jackson area and the  32 traplines, there is a reference to Agnes Sutton when  33 she was alive.  I want to refer you to it.  Then I am  34 going to ask you a question about it.  This is April  35 5th, 1977 memorandum.  It says:  "Mrs. Agnes Sutton  36 refers to the old Harold Sinclair trapline  37 registration on Price Creek on the north side of Seven  38 Sisters.  This was originally registered in the name  39 of Josiah Bright and company.  Mrs. Sutton says this  40 trapline should now be registered to Buddy Williams."  41 This was in 1977, 11 years ago.  It's the first  42 paragraph of that memo.  Now my question to you is:  43 Is what is attributed there to what Mrs. Sutton said,  44 do you agree with that, that that territory should  45 have been registered in Buddy Williams's name at that  46 time or is that different than what you have said?  47 A  Mrs. Sutton is correct in saying this.  She owned part 389  S. Williams (For Plaintiffs)  Re-exam by Mr. Grant  1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  MR. GRANT  of the Seven Sisters and what she says is right.  Harold Sinclair used, registered this trapline through  Amnigwootxw when Amnigwootxw — Alfred Sinclair was  Harold Sinclair's father, so he used this land through  Amnigwootxw.  After Harold Sinclair passed on, then  this territory was returned back to the rightful  owner.  It rightfully belongs to Haalus, this is his  territory.  Those are all my questions on redirect.  Your  examination is finished.  Thank you very much Gwis  gyen.  I hereby certify the foregoing to be  a true and accurate transcript of the  proceedings herein to the best of my  skill and ability.  Wilf Roy  ^—*  Official Reporter 


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