Delgamuukw Trial Transcripts

Cross-Examination on Affidavit of Allen Eugene Fletcher British Columbia. Supreme Court Aug 21, 1989

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 <3n ti\e gtuprtmz Court of JSrtttslj Columbia  (BEFORE THE EXAMINER)        ;:  No. 084 3 V&ncawer, B.C.  Smithers Registry AUGUST 21, 1989  BETWEEN  DELGAMUUKW, also known as KEN MULDOE,  suing on his own behalf and on behalf  of all other members of the HOUSE OF  DELGAMUUKW, and others,  Plaintiffs  AND:  HER MAJESTY THE QUEEN IN RIGHT OF THE  PROVINCE OF BRITISH COLUMBIA, and  THE ATTORNEY-GENERAL FOR CANADA,  Defendants  CROSS-EXAMINATION ON AFFIDAVIT  OF  ALLEN EUGENE FLETCHER  P. GRANT, ESQ.,       APPEARING ON BEHALF OF THE PLAINTIFFS  C. WILLMS, ESQ.,      APPEARING ON BEHALF OF THE PROVINCE  M. FREY, ESQ.,        APPEARING ON BEHALF OF THE ATTORNEY  GENERAL  UNITED REPORTING SERVICE LTD., 610 -1030 WEST GEORGIA STREET. VANCOUVER, EC V6E 4H4 (604) 689-1068 EXHIBITS  NO. DESCRIPTION PAGE  1 LETTER  DATED  JANUARY   24,    1934   FROM  MR.   MUIRHEAD  TO  MR.   MORTIMER 20  2 APPLICATION   FOR  REGISTRATION   OF  TRAPLINE   -   PETER  BAZIL   -   OCTOBER   23,   1926   22  3 APPLICATION   FOR   REGISTRATION   OF'  TRAPLINE   -   PETER  BAZIL   OCTOBER   1,   1928 22  4 LETTER  DATED  JANUARY   17,    193 5   FROM  MR.   MUIRHEAD  -   DOCUMENT   10433 24  5 DOCUMENT   FROM MR.   MUIRHEAD  TO   THE  OFFICER  COMMANDING  -   D  GAME   DIVISION 24  6 LETTER  FROM  MR.   MORTIMER  -   INDIAN   AGENT        2 6  7 SERIES   OF   CORRESPONDENCE   FROM  MARCH  11,   1936   UP   TO  AND   INCLUDING  DECEMBER  17,   1936   -   DOCUMENT   10484 30  8 JANUARY   17,    19 35   LETTER  FROM  MR.   MUIRHEAD  RE   TRAPLINE   -   MAY   3,   1935   -  LETTER  FROM  MR.   VAN   DYK   TO   GAME  WARDEN 90 1  A.E.   Fletcher   (for   Province)  Cross-exam  by  Mr.   Grant  1  2 ALLEN EUGENE FLETCHER, a witness  3 called on behalf of the Province,  4 having been duly sworn, testifies as  5 follows:  6  7    CROSS-EXAMINED BY MR. GRANT;  8  9 Q You are Allen Fletcher?  10 A Yes.  11 Q Is  that your   full   name?  12 A I  got  a middle  name.  13 Q Well,   what's your  middle  name?  14 A Eugene.  15 Q And what  is your  birth  date,   Mr.   Fletcher?  16 A September   the 7th,   1918.  17 Q Okay.     And you have  sworn  an affidavit  on July 27th,  18 1989  in  these  proceedings?  19 A Uh-huh.  20 Q And you swore that, and that has been tendered by the  21 provincial defendant, or will be tendered by the  22 provincial defendant as a witness; is that right?  23 A Uh-huh.  24 Q It's important that you speak, so that she can report,  25 rather than nod.  26 A Yes.  27 Q And you have — you have a —  28 MR. WILLMS:  The original.  2 9    MR. GRANT:  30 Q You have the original in front of you, and that is  31 your signature on page 5 of this affidavit?  32 A Yes.  33 Q And that was  sworn  in front  of,   I  believe,   Mr.   Green?  34 A Yes.  35 Q Okay.     How  many  brothers or   sisters  do you have,   Mr.  36 Fletcher?  37 A One brother, one sister.  38 Q What is the order of children? Are they both older  39 than you?  40 A My  sister   is older   and my  brother   is younger.  41 Q What's your   sister's  name?  42 A Doris.  43 Q And your brother?  44 A Edison.  45 Q E-D-I-S-O-N?  46 A That's right.  47 Q Are  they  still  alive? 2  A.E.   Fletcher   (for   Province)  Cross-exam  by  Mr.   Grant  1  A  2  0  3  A  4  Q  5  A  6  Q  7  A  8  Q  9  A  10  Q  11  A  12  Q  13  A  14  Q  15  A  16  Q  17  A  18  Q  19  A  20  Q  21  A  22  Q  23  A  24  Q  25  26  A  27  Q  28  29  A  30  Q  31  A  32  Q  33  A  34  Q  35  36  37  A  38  Q  39  40  A  41  Q  42  A  43  Q  44  45  A  46  Q  47  Yes.  And do  they   live  in the Bulkley Valley?  No,   Vancouver.  Okay.     And your   father  was Eli  Fletcher?  That's  right.  And what was your  mother's name?  Laura.  L-A-U-R-A?  Yes.  Okay.  And you yourself have been married?  Yes.  And you are  presently widowed,   I  understand?  Yes.  And what year   did your wife die approximately?  About 10 years,   I   think.  Okay.     And what was your wife's name?  June.  And you have — you had one boy?  Yes.  Okay.  And did you have any daughters?  No.  Okay.     And your   son  is now  deceased?  That's  right.  Okay.     When  did your  father  — your  father   came  into  the Bulkley Valley;   is  that  right?  Yes.  And I   understand from your   affidavit you were actually  born in Hazelton?  Yes.  And grew  up  in the Bulkley Valley?  Yes.  And what year did your father come?  1907.  That's 1907.     And when your  father  came into the  Bulkley Valley,   did he first  settle at the place where  your — where you refer  to your  family farm?  Not   'til 1913.  Okay.     And when your  father  came in,  was he already  married to your mother?  Yes.  Where did your  father  come from?  Yakima,  Washington.  Okay.     Had he been —  is that where he had been born  and raised,   in  the United States?  Yes.  Okay.  Now, your father was a — was he a prospector  when he first came up? 3  A.E.   Fletcher   (for   Province)  Cross-exam  by  Mr.   Grant  1  A  2  3  Q  4  5  6  A  7  8  Q  9  A  10  11  Q  12  A  13  Q  14  A  15  0  16  A  17  Q  18  19  A  20  Q  21  22  A  23  Q  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  A  34  35  Q  36  37  38  A  39  Q  40  A  41  Q  42  43  A  44  Q  45  A  46  Q  47  A  He worked for   a prospector   doing assessment work  in  the Babines  in 1907,   but  he wasn't a  prospector.  I   see.     How  old would you have been when you had your  first memories?     In other words,   how  old were you with  those  first  memories?  Oh,   I   imagine  I was  seven,   eight years old when  I  lived on the farm.  What  is your  first memory?  Well,   I  guess  going to  school   in the winter-time when  it  is 40  below zero and walking two miles.  Okay.     What grade?    Do you  remember?  I  remember  going  to Grade  1.  Okay.     And how  old were you when you went  to Grade  1?  Six.  And that was at the Driftwood School?  Yes.  And  is that  the Driftwood School   that  is —  the  building is  still   there,   but  it's —  No,   the  old original  log  building  is gone years  ago.  Okay.     Was  it on  the   same location of where  the  present  Driftwood School   is?  Just across the road.  Okay.     Now,   if you  can  just  look at your  affidavit.     I  just want  to —   it appears —  just to assist me.  Paragraph  three you say:  "I  have lived on or   near  our  family   farm  at  Driftwood  Creek  ever   since  ..."  And then to paraphrase,   ever   since  I was born.  Now,   in fact,   as you  described later,  you were  away  for   four years,   from 1929  to   '43?  During  the Depression we lived in Burns Lake for four  years.  Okay.     So other  than —  so  in fact that paragraph  three is not quite  correct,   because there were four  years when you lived away  from  there?  That's  right.  Did you live away  from there at any other  time?  No.  Okay.     Do you  know what  lot  number your  family  farm  was,   this is your  Dad's farm?  4765.  You don't still  own it,   do you?  I  sold it last year.  To who?  Ron  Kilbey,   K-I-L-B-E-Y. 4  A.E.   Fletcher   (for   Province)  Cross-exam  by  Mr.   Grant  1  Q  2  3  A  4  5  6  Q  7  A  8  0  9  A  10  Q  11  12  A  13  Q  14  A  15  Q  16  17  A  18  Q  19  20  A  21  Q  22  A  23  Q  24  A  25  26  Q  27  A  28  Q  29  A  30  Q  31  A  32  Q  33  A  34  Q  35  36  A  37  Q  38  39  A  40  Q  41  A  42  Q  43  A  44  Q  45  A  46  Q  47  A  Why  did your  family  move  to Burns Lake  in the 1929,  •33  period?  It was  during the Depression,   and we just  got  discouraged farming,   and moved there for  four years  and tried to find work.  Okay.     Did he  buy  any  land there?  No.  You are  indicating no?  No.  From 1913   to 1929,   when you moved to Burns Lake,   was  he farming  throughout  that  period of  time?  Yes.  On  the  family  farm?  Yes.  And when  I  refer   to  the family  farm,   I will   refer   to  that  district lot  4765.  That's  right.  Okay.     Did you get  to  know  Mr.   Harrison when you were  in Burns Lake at  that  time?  Billy  Harrison?  Yes.  Yes.     No,   not  at  that time,   no.     I was too young.  Okay.  I  didn't meet him   'til  1952,  when  I went  to work for  the  Fish and Wildlife.  Okay.     Did you  go  to  school   in Burns Lake?  Yes.  What  school?  Just —  Do you know what the school's name was?  I'm  sorry,   I   don't.  Was there  only  one   school  there then?  Yes.  Was that  school  — did it have  Indian  children  in  it  as well  as non-Indian?  Yes.  Do you recall  just approximately how many  children  would have been in that  school?  I would say  probably 50  or  60.  And was  it — would it have been Grade 1  to  8?  Yes.  It was more than a one  room school?  Yes.  And Driftwood,   I  understand,  was a one  room school?  That's  right.  So what grades did you complete at Driftwood?  I  think 1,  2  and 3,   and then came back and finished 5  A.E.   Fletcher   (for   Province)  Cross-exam  by  Mr.   Grant  1  2  Q  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  A  11  Q  12  A  13  Q  14  A  15  Q  16  A  17  18  Q  19  20  21  A  22  Q  23  A  24  Q  25  26  A  27  Q  28  A  29  Q  30  A  31  Q  32  33  A  34  35  Q  36  37  A  38  Q  39  40  A  41  Q  42  A  43  Q  44  45  46  A  47  Q  Grade 8 there.  Okay.  Can you go to paragraph 8 of your affidavit.  It says there:  "My family moved to Burns Lake for about four  years during the Depression, from 1929 to 1933,  and I completed my education to grade 8 there.  n  So you —  in Burns Lake you  completed Grade 7?  And 8.     But  I  failed in Grade 8,   so —  So you went   back  and  redid Grade  8?  I  had to   come  back  and do Grade 8  over  again.  And you did that  at  Driftwood?  Yes.  Okay.  I  lied when  I  said they  burnt the  school  down to  get  me out  of Grade 3.  That was  the Driftwood School.     Okay.     Now,   the  Driftwood School,   how many  children were  there when  you were —  this  is before you went  to Burns Lake?  About 15.  Okay.     And that was  from — what  grades did it cover?  Grade 1  to Grade 8.  Okay.     And there were  Indian and non-Indian  students  in  that  school?  No.  Not when you were  there?  No.  Okay.     Your   son went  to that school?  Yes.  And at  the  time  he went  there,   there were  some  Indian  students at  that  school?  Yes.     But  he  didn't  go  to the old original   school.     He  went to one  that was  built afterwards.  Right.     Now,   when did the old original   school  burn  down?    Was  it  after you  completed school?  Yes.  Okay.     But   it was the  same Driftwood School,   just  a  different  building?  Yes.  And it was a one  room school  as well,   the second one?  Yes.  Now,   I  understand that your —  from your  background  that you took up farming and ranching like your  father?  Yes.  On the family  farm? 6  A.E.   Fletcher   (for   Province)  Cross-exam  by  Mr.   Grant  1  A  2  Q  3  4  A  5  0  6  A  7  Q  8  9  A  10  11  Q  12  A  13  Q  14  A  15  Q  16  A  17  Q  18  A  19  Q  20  21  A  22  Q  23  A  24  Q  25  A  26  27  Q  28  29  30  31  A  32  33  Q  34  A  35  Q  36  37  A  38  Q  39  40  A  41  Q  42  43  A  44  Q  45  46  A  47  Q  Yes.  You also,   I  understand,   for   a period of  time were  a  guide?  Yes.  And a  successful   guide   I may  say?  Well,   I  kind of like to  think  so,   but —  But you are well   recognized as a  successful  guide  amongst  guides?  I  think  so.     I  have a couple of  memorial   trophies  for  being a  guide.  Right.     And you are  also  a  trapper?  Yes.  And a  horseman?  Yes.  When you  ranched,   did you  raise  cattle?  Yes.  Okay.     So you were a  cowboy   in that  sense?  Well  —  I mean,   that's the  type  of   ranching you did,   the  type  of  farming you  did.     I  am not  saying  it in any —  I   got  bucked off   a  few  times.  Do you belong to  the Guide Outfitters'   Association?  Not  any more.  You  did  though?  I  think so,   yes.     To the best of my  recollection,   yes,  I  think  I  did.     That's a long  time ago.     1949.  Right.     You were  a  guide  for  —  as I   understand,   you  had a  guiding  territory  in  1949  to   '51.     That's what  your  affidavit  says,   and that's right?    Just for  three  years you actually  guided?  Because   I went  to work for   the Fish  and Wildlife  in  '52.  Right.     You — do  you remember  Hans Tugman?  Yes,   a  good friend of mine.  Okay.     And he grew  up near  Glen Tanna?    G-L-E-N  T-A-N-N-A.  That's right.  And Glen Tanna  is,   I  understand,   is a few miles north  of  Driftwood?  Northwest of  Driftwood six miles.  Six miles.     Thank you.     And on — we are talking about  on the Telkwa High Road?  That's right.  And your  farm,   your  family  farm is in the area  known  as Driftwood?  That's right.  In fact it would be very  close  to Driftwood Creek? 7  A.E.   Fletcher   (for   Province)  Cross-exam  by  Mr.   Grant  1  A  2  Q  3  A  4  Q  5  6  A  7  Q  8  A  9  Q  10  A  11  Q  12  A  13  Q  14  A  15  Q  16  A  17  Q  18  19  A  20  Q  21  A  22  Q  23  24  A  25  Q  26  A  27  Q  28  A  29  Q  30  31  A  32  Q  33  A  34  Q  35  A  36  Q  37  A  38  0  39  A  40  Q  41  A  42  Q  43  44  45  A  46  Q  47  That's  right.  The  upper   part  of  Driftwood Creek?  That's  right.  Okay.     Did you  know —   just  a moment —  Lefty  Gardiner?  Yes.  Was he a good friend of yours?  Yes.  He was a guide later on as well?  Yes.  And a  neighbour?  Yes.  What  about  a  fellow  known as  Peavine  Harvey?  Yes,   he was my  neighbour.  He was your  neighbour.     It's a nickname,   wasn't it?  It's  named  after wild  peavine.  P-E-A-V-I-N-E.     And I   think his initials were  C.G.  Harvey?  Yes.  And Ben Nelson was your   neighbour?  He  taught me how  to  pack.  Okay.     And they  both  lived —  they  both had farms on  the  Driftwood  Creek?  That's  right.  Do you   know  Igor  Steciw?  Yes.  And he's a neighbour  as well?  Yes.  And he's a guide outfitter today, as well as a medical  doctor?  Yes.  And you know Marty Allen?  Yes.  And the Love brothers?  Yes.  Would you consider Marty Allen a friend?  Yes.  And the Love brothers?  Yes.  Do you know Barbara Peden?  No.     I'm  sorry.  Now,   Marty Allen,   the Love brothers,   Lefty Gardiner  and Igor  Steciw are  all  guide outfitters,   or were in  the past  in their lifetime?  Yes.  I understand that — is Lefty — he's deceased, is he  not? A.E.   Fletcher   (for   Province)  Cross-exam  by  Mr.   Grant  1 A No.  2 Q He's  alive?  3 A Yes.  4 Q He lives  in  Smithers?  5 A Yes.  6 Q I'm sorry, it was Mr. Harvey and Ben Nelson.  They are  7 both deceased?  8 A Yes.  9 Q Where was your mother from?  10 A Born in Wisconsin.  11 Q Okay.  Where did she meet your father? Here?  12 A No, in Yakima Valley.  13 Q Okay.  Did your father or mother have a formal  14 education?  15 A My mother, yes, but my father no.  16 Q Okay.  What grade did your mother complete?  17 A I think just Grade 8 probably.  18 Q Okay.  Your mother could read and write?  19 A Yes.  20 Q What about your   dad?  21 A Yes,   he  can  read and write.  22 Q Okay.     Now,   you were   saying your   dad left  Driftwood in  23 1929  to   '33  during the Depression,   and he left  after  24 the  Depression   started,   I  gather;   isn't  that  right?  25 A Yes.  26 Q What did he do in Burns Lake? Did he work there?  27 A He was on quite a bit of the time on what they called  28 relief.  29 Q Right.  30 A You  know,   you work  for  40  cents an hour  on the  31 highways,   and  then when you earned  $27,  well   then you  32 got   $27   for   a family  to live on for   a month.  33 Q Right.     Okay.     Was  that — was  that  common at  that  34 time that the families of Driftwood — the farmers of  35 Driftwood left  the area  because of  the Depression,   or  36 was your  father   rather   unique?  37 A It wasn't  common  I   don't  think.  38 Q What was he raising before he left Burns Lake or  39 before he left Driftwood?  40 A Sheep and cattle,   pigs.  41 Q Okay.     And he  couldn't  sell  them.     This is why he —  42 he couldn't earn a living?  43 A Well,  he  got  discouraged.     He was  getting older.     He  44 was pretty  old and was  getting older.  45 Q Okay.     About — when did your father  die?  46 A I guess probably 15 years ago.  47 Q About how  old was he  then? 9  A.E.   Fletcher   (for   Province)  Cross-exam  by  Mr.   Grant  1  A  2  Q  3  4  A  5  Q  6  7  8  A  9  0  10  A  11  Q  12  A  13  Q  14  A  15  Q  16  17  A  18  Q  19  20  A  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  Q  29  A  30  Q  31  A  32  Q  33  A  34  Q  35  36  A  37  Q  38  39  40  41  A  42  Q  43  A  44  Q  45  A  46  Q  47  A  86.  Okay.     And you  indicate  that your  family  moved to the  Okanogan.     When was  that?    Your  parents  I   should  say.  I was  18,   I  think.     So that would be   '36,   I  guess.  You mentioned this award or  awards that you received.  Was this — did you receive the Emil  Mesich Memorial  award?  Yes.  And Emil  Mesich was  another  person that you  knew?  Yes.  And he was a guide outfitter and a bush pilot?  Yes.  And he was killed in an airplane crash, I believe?  Just behind my place.  And that was only about ten years ago or eight years  ago?  Yes.  M-e-s-i-c-h.     What was the award for?    Why were you  given  it?  I  forget what  it  says on that award exactly,   but   its  been  given for   eight years every year  to a different  person.     Like Bill  Love's name  is on there and  Mesich's  name's on  there,   and there is  eight  altogether.     And then you keep it for   a year,   and you  give  it  back.     In appreciation  of,   I  don't  know,   for  being an environmentalist,   I guess,   and  something to  do with with  conservation.  It would be  for  your   contribution to  guiding?  Yes.  Is that right? It's primarily a guiding award?  Yes.  It was given by the Guides' Association.  Is that the provincial or the local?  Local.  Okay.     And you are the present holder  of   it.     Next  year  it will  be  given to  someone else?  That's right.  Well,   you actually were involved in the —  in fact you  guided a  client into the Babines and were  successful  in assisting them  to get the largest mountain goat  that's ever  been  killed?  That's still  the world's record,   yes.  And that was in 19 —  '49.  1949?  Either   '49 or   '50.     I'm not sure.  And where was  that  goat  killed?  About  a half a mile from the upper Rieseter Lake. 10  A.E.   Fletcher   (for   Province)  Cross-exam  by  Mr.   Grant  1 There is two lakes on Rieseter  Creek,   and the upper  2 lake,   and then  there is  some hanging glaciers above  3 that,   and that's where the goat was  killed.  4 Q Okay.     Now,   in your  affidavit you refer  to Two Bridge  5 Lake.  6 A Yes.     Local   name.  7 Q Yes.     Now,   when you say  the  upper  Rieseter  Lake,   is  8 that  the   same as Two Bridge Lake?  9 A Yes,   the two lakes,   one above the other.     The upper  10 lake has no  name.  11 Q Okay.     So when we talk about Two Bridge Lake,   we are  12 talking about  the lower  one?  13 A Yes.  14 Q Okay.  I may refer to it as Two Bridge Lake or  15 Rieseter Lake, but I understand it's the same place.  16 A Yes.  17 Q And that's what your  —  18 A Yes.  19 Q Did you  know -- did you  know  many  of  the Wet'suwet'en  20 people  or   Carrier   people  that lived in the area?  21 A No.  22 Q Did your father?  23 A My father was pretty good friends with Jack Joseph,  24 and I was also pretty good friends with Dave Dennis.  25 Q Now, David Dennis, he was quite — he just died  26 recently.  Is that the David Dennis you referred to?  27 A I think so.  28 Q Yes.     Was Jack Joseph  a peer  —  that  is about  in the  29 same age  group as your  father?  30 A Yes.  31 Q Now,   did you  know John Baptiste?  32 A From Telkwa?  33 Q Yes.  34 A Yes,   I remember  the name.  35 Q Okay.     You  didn't  know  him,   but —  36 A Well,   I  knew  him just  to  speak to him,   I think.     I  37 think  there was quite  a few  brothers.  38 Q Okay.     Did you  know  Round Lake  Tommy?  39 A Yes.  40 Q Okay.     And Round Lake Tommy  lived on Round Lake  for  41 some  period of  time.     You knew  that,   didn't you?  42 A Yes.  43 Q In fact  his  cabin was visible there  until  quite  44 recently?  45 A Yes.  46 Q And you have  seen it?  47 A I  can't remember  seeing it,   but — 11  A.E.   Fletcher   (for   Province)  Cross-exam by  Mr.   Grant  1 Q Okay.     You  knew — did you  know Joshua  Holland?  2 A Very well.  3 Q Now,   Joshua  lived near  Driftwood with  his family,  4 didn't he?  5 A He  used to  shoe horses for  me.  6 Q Okay.     And Joshua's  children went to  school with your  7 son?  8 A That's  right.  9 Q At Driftwood?  10 A That's  right.  11 Q And George  Holland,   who  is present,   was one —   is one  12 of  his  sons  that you knew?  13 A Yes.  14 Q Did you  know  Peter  Bazil   senior?  15 A I  can't  be  sure about that.  16 Q Okay.  17 A I  don't  remember.     The name  is familiar,   but —  18 Q Okay.     Now,   you  said  that you   knew David Dennis quite  19 well?  20 A Yes.  21 Q David Dennis,   you  knew  that he was a Wet'suwet'en  22 person  from  Moricetown?  23 A Well,   I  didn't  know,   but  ~  24 Q You  didn't   know — you  knew  he was  Indian?  25 A Yes,   sure.  26 Q And you knew  that he was from the Moricetown tribe  or  27 the  Moricetown  people?  28 A That's  right.  29 Q You weren't familiar,   necessarily,  with the name  30 Wet'suwet'en?  31 A No.  32 Q Did you hear   the name Carrier?  33 A I have heard  the  name.  34 Q Okay.     Did you  know  that David Dennis was a  hereditary  35 chief  of   the Wet'suwet'en?  36 A I have heard that.  37 Q Okay.     And did you  know  that David Dennis held  38 territory  among the Wet'suwet'en?  39 MR.   WILLMS:      I   object.  40 MR.   GRANT:    What  basis?  41 MR.  WILLMS:    Hearsay.     Unless you can form a foundation for  42 that,   that's hearsay.  43 MR.   GRANT:    It  can't go for  the proof  of  the —  it's within this  44 witness's  knowledge,  and it's admissible for  that  45 reason.     Anyway.  46 Q I would like  to go back to your family  farm.     Do you  47 know whether  or  not your father  bought it from another 12  A.E.   Fletcher   (for   Province)  Cross-exam  by  Mr.   Grant  1 private  party,   or was  it  Crown granted to him?  2 A      To  my  best  recollection,   I   think  it was what  they  3 called preemption in those  days.  4 Q       Okay.  5 MR.   WILLMS:     I  am  not  going to object,   but   I am  going to note  6 for   the record  right now,   Mr.  Grant,   that  these  7 questions  that you are asking this witness  are all   the  8 questions you objected to in the  affidavit  as  being  9 hearsay,   and I'll  draw that to the court's attention  10 at  the appropriate  time.     But the questions about this  11 witness's father  you objected to as  being hearsay,  12 they were  taken  out.     About when he  came and where he  13 came from was objected to and taken out.  14 MR.   GRANT:    Well,  you  don't have to list  all  of   these  now,   do  15 you,   because  —  unless you want  us  to —  16 MR.  WILLMS:     I  just want  to   state  it for   the record.     But  carry  17 on  if you want  to  continue  asking these  hearsay  18 questions.  19 MR.   GRANT:     I  only  asked —  I  am only  asking him questions of  20 notoriety,   such as  the question  of  the  preemption  is  21 something that  can be established through  the court —  22 through other   documents  this witness  knows  or   doesn't  23 know.  24 Q       Now,   do you have a  copy  of   the documents transferring  25 the land which — your  family's farm?    Were  they  kept  26 by  your  father,   and do you have a  copy  of   them?  27 A      No.  28 Q      Why  did you  sell   that land last year?  29 A      Well,   I lost my  son,   and my wife was  in a wheelchair  30 for   ten years and then she died,   and I   bought another  31 farm beside  it,   and I  didn't want to live   there  any  32 more.     So  I  built a  new  house  and moved over   there,  33 and  I —  it was too much for me to look  after   two  34 farms,   so  I  sold the other  one.  35 Q       The  place  that you  bought,   is  it a farm as well?  36 A       Yes.  37 Q  So I gather, from what you have alluded to, that  3 8 basically it had a lot of memories and you moved next  3 9 door?  40 A       Yes.  41 Q      Okay.     The lot that you presently own,   is it known —  42 was  it  the McFee farm?  43 A      Originally.  44 Q      Uh-huh.     And it was —  it's lot 846,   I believe?  45 A      That's right.  46 Q      And it's right next  door   to yours,   to your  old — to  47 the family farm.     You built a separate house  there, 13  A.E.   Fletcher   (for   Province)  Cross-exam  by  Mr.   Grant  1  2  A  3  Q  4  A  5  Q  6  7  A  8  Q  9  10  A  11  0  12  A  13  Q  14  15  A  16  Q  17  18  A  19  Q  20  21  A  22  Q  23  24  A  25  Q  26  A  27  Q  28  29  30  A  31  Q  32  A  33  Q  34  35  A  36  Q  37  38  A  39  Q  40  A  41  Q  42  43  A  44  Q  45  A  46  Q  47  didn't you?  Yes.  A new  house  for yourself.     You haven't remarried?  No.  Now,   the family  farm,   was it — did it abutt  on  Driftwood  Creek?  No,   it  didn't touch  it.  Okay.     It —  but  it   did abutt on Harvey's  or  Nelson's  farm,   didn't  it?  On Harvey's.  Okay.     And Harvey's farm was on Driftwood Creek?  Yes.  In  fact what we now  know  as Driftwood Park was once  part  of  Harvey's farm?  That's  right.  So as I understand it, the Harvey farm would be on  both sides of the creek?  Yes.  And anyone wanting to  go  up the creek beyond Harvey's  farm would have to  go  through Harvey's?  There was a  public government road to Harvey's place.  Okay.     But  anybody wanting to  go  through would have  to —  Yes.  — bisect through there?  Yes.  Okay.     Now,   that  public  road went  up to the farm  that  was further  up the  creek,  which was the Nelson farm;  was that  right?  That's  right.  Is  that  right?  Yes.  And do you know which lots the Harvey and Nelson farms  were?  No.  Now,   your  farm,   the family  farm,   did not abutt on  Nelson?  No.  Okay.     Nelson was —  he was a packer,  wasn't he?  Yes.  And I think you earlier alluded that he taught you how  to pack?  Yes.  When you were young,   I guess,   a boy?  16,  yes.  And were the Harveys and the Nelsons good family  friends of your family? 14  A.E.   Fletcher   (for   Province)  Cross-exam  by  Mr.   Grant  1  A  2  Q  3  4  5  6  A  7  Q  8  A  9  10  Q  11  A  12  Q  13  14  A  15  16  Q  17  A  18  19  Q  20  A  21  Q  22  23  A  24  Q  25  A  26  27  Q  28  A  29  30  Q  31  32  A  33  Q  34  35  A  36  Q  37  A  38  Q  39  A  40  Q  41  A  42  Q  43  44  45  46  47  Yes.  And you were only 18 when your  family  left,   and I  take  it  that the Nelsons and the Harveys were  sort of —  you — they  helped you out and taught you things  as  you were  growing  up?  Well,   Ben Nelson did.     The Harveys didn't.  What  types of   things  did Ben teach you?  Well,   how  to  shoe a horse and how  to pack horses  and —  Did you go out with him on any of  his packing trips?  Yes.  And he packed up north  into  the northern area,   didn't  he?  Well,   he —  no,   he packed just out of —  around here  locally.  Uh-huh.  But he went on a pack trip up north, and then he died  up in the Stikine River.  Okay.  And he wasn't packing in,   he was just  on foot.  Okay.     And do you  know about what year   that was  that  he went  up there?  I was about —  If  you  can  tell  by your   age,   that's fine.  Because  I want wanted to  go with him,   and my folks  wouldn't let me.     I was 16   then,   I  think,   so  —  That would  be about 1934?  Later   than that,   I  think.     Maybe  I was  18.     It was  in  the  thirties when he disappeared.  Okay.     Now,   you acquired a  trapline  in the Driftwood  Creek?  Yes.  Would it have been before or after you acquired that  trapline that he disappeared?  About the same time.  Okay.    Who did you buy  the McFee place from?  From John Shroeder.  John Shroeder?  Shroeder.  Did you  know McFee?  Yes.  Okay.     I would just like to ask you a few general  questions about your  affidavit,   Mr.   Fletcher.     As you  have indicated,   this July 27th,   '89  affidavit was  sworn in front of  Mr.  Green at that time.     There was  an earlier  affidavit that was sworn on May 5th,  1989  by  Mr.   Mackenzie.     Do you remember  that? 15  A.E.   Fletcher   (for   Province)  Cross-exam  by  Mr.   Grant  1 A       Yes.  2 MR.   WILLMS:     Sworn  by  Mr.   Mackenzie.  3 MR.   GRANT:     Sworn  in  front  of   Mr.   Mackenzie.  4 Q      And that was  sworn  in Smithers?  5 A      Yes.  6 Q  Now, what I would like to know is before that  7 affidavit was signed by you in front of Mr. Mackenzie  8 on May 5th, did you discuss what you put in the  9 affidavit with anybody?  10 MR. WILLMS:  I object.  11 MR. GRANT:  Why?  12 MR.   WILLMS:    You better   specify who you are talking about,  13 because  if you are  talking about  Mr.   Mackenzie,   first  14 of   all   the answer   is obvious,   and secondly  the answer  15 is  privileged.  16 MR.   GRANT:     It's not  privileged.  17 MR.  WILLMS:     Yes,   it  is.  18 MR.   GRANT:     This  is exactly  the position that the provincial  19 defendants questioned each  of  our witnesses,  was  the  20 surrounding circumstances of  the  swearing of   each  21 affidavit.  22 MR.   WILLMS:     I   didn't  object  to that.     You  said did you talk  to  23 him —  24 MR.   GRANT:     Let me  rephrase  the question.     I  don't need you to  25 tell  me what  I   said,   Mr.   Willms.     I would like  to move  26 along here.  27 Q      Who  first  approached you about  giving evidence  for   the  28 province in  this  court  case?  2 9 A      Mr.   Mackenzie,   I  guess.  30 Q       How  long  before  May 5th when you  signed  that  31 affidavit?  32 A      I  can't  remember   exactly.     A few  months maybe.  33 Q      Okay.     And how  many  discussions  did you have  prior   to  34 the  swearing of  the May 5th affidavit with Mr.  35 Mackenzie?  36 A      Maybe  twice.  37 Q      And where did those  discussions take  place?  3 8 A      At my  place.  3 9        Q  Okay.  Did you see any drafts of an affidavit before  40 the  May 5th  affidavit?  41 A      I  don't think so.  42 Q      Okay.  43 A      I  can't remember.  44 Q      Did he show you any — before — you understand the  45 May 5th affidavit is the first one you signed?  46 A      Uh-huh.  47 Q      Let me ask you that.     Did you just  sign two 16  A.E.   Fletcher   (for   Province)  Cross-exam  by  Mr.   Grant  1  2  A  3  Q  4  5  A  6  Q  7  A  8  9  Q  10  A  11  Q  12  A  13  Q  14  A  15  Q  16  A  17  Q  18  19  A  20  Q  21  22  23  24  A  25  Q  26  27  A  28  Q  29  30  A  31  32  33  Q  34  A  35  Q  36  37  A  38  39  40  41  Q  42  43  A  44  Q  45  46  47  affidavits?  As far  as  I   can  remember,   yes.  Okay.     One  in front  of  Mr.   Mackenzie May  5th,   and then  one  in front  of   Mr.   Green  on July 27th?  Uh-huh.  Okay.     How  long have you  known  Igor  Steciw?  I   don't   know  exactly.     I   suppose  since he's  been here.  20  years maybe.  Did he move  near you —  No.  — when you first  knew him?  No.  Did you first know him through guiding circles?  No.  How  did you first  know  him?  As a  doctor.  As  a doctor.     Okay.     He's your  doctor,   your  family  doctor?  Not  now.  Not now.     You are aware that — well,   I  understand  that he acquired a   guiding territory.     Did you  know  anything about  that at  the time  he acquired it at  Blunt  Creek,   Blunt  Mountain area?  I   knew  he had a  guiding licence,   yes.  Did he  come and  consult with you around the  time he  was acquiring the  guiding area?  I   don't  remember  him asking me  anything.  Okay.     Has he ever  consulted with you about advice  on  guiding and what  to  do and how  to  do it?  I  have talked to him several  times about  just  general  guiding,  you  know,   because he  belonged to  the Guides'  Association,   so  did I,   so —  Right.  I  talk about  guiding sometimes.  Okay.    What is his reputation as a  guide in amongst  the Guide Outfitters'   Association?  It's okay as far  as I  know.     I have been out of  the  guiding business  since 1949,  so  I don't keep track  that  closely,  you  know,  what they are doing.     You  know,   not that interested any more.  Okay.     Did Lefty Gardiner,   did he  get out of  guiding  about the same time as you?  He  stayed in long after  I  did,  yes.  But  just  so that I am clear,   you just this past year  received an award for —  from guides —  a local  guides'   association.     You don't belong,   and you have  been out of  the  guiding for 20 years.    Would it  be 17  A.E.   Fletcher   (for   Province)  Cross-exam  by  Mr.   Grant  1 fair  to  say  that your  circle of  friends  includes  2 the — many  of   the  guides in the area?  3 A      Yes.  4 Q       Okay.     And as  new  people  come  into the guiding  —  in  5 the  guiding  business,  you  get to   know  them  through  6 your   circle of  friends;  is  that fair  to say?  7 A       I  don't  keep in touch with any  new  guides much.     The  8 old guides  is the ones I —  the old friends  I  keep in  9 touch with.  10 Q  And that would be like the Love brothers, Marty Allen?  11 A  Yes.  12 Q  Okay.  And you know Jim Shorter?  13 A  Yes.  14 Q       He  is a  neighbour?  15 A       Yes.  16 Q      And  is he a  guide?  17 A       No.  18 Q  Okay.  I may have — Ron Langdale?  19 A  Yes, he's a friend of mine.  20 Q  And he's a guide?  21 A      He works for   guides.  22 Q       In other words,   when you  say  he works  for   guides,   he  23 may  take hunters out  guiding,   but  it's  somebody   else's  24 guiding territory?  25 A      He works for  other   guides in their   territory.  26 Q       Okay.     Now,   you  refer   in your   affidavit —  you  refer  27 to   setting  up a   sawmill   in  1948;   is  that  right?  28 A      Yes.  29 Q       Now,   that was  in the Driftwood Canyon?  30 A      That was on Ben Nelson's  property,   but  it  belonged to  31 Gordon Harvey  after Ben —  after  Ben Nelson died,  32 Gordon Harvey  bought his  place,   and we had the   sawmill  33 on Gordon Harvey's property.  34 Q      Did you work that with Gordon Harvey?  35 A      No,   with  another  guy by  the name  of  Ralph Deiter.  36 Q      Now,   is Gordon Harvey  the  son of  Peavine Harvey?    Is  37 he the same person?  38 A      Well,   old Peavine Harvey  and young  Peavine Harvey.  39 Q      Gordon  is the younger?  40 A       Yes.  41 Q      Well,   just to help us out,   I will  let you keep — when  42 you refer  to  the younger,  you can refer to Gordon,   and  43 we'll  refer  to the older  as Peavine.  44 A      Yes.  45 Q  Now, how long did you have that sawmill in Driftwood  46 Canyon?  47 A      Just  for  one winter,   from November   'til March. 18  A.E.   Fletcher   (for   Province)  Cross-exam  by  Mr.   Grant  1 Q       Okay.     And you — did you work  it full   time —  2 A       Yes.  3 Q       —   that year?    So you didn't do  much  trapping that  4 year?  5 A      Not  that winter,   no.  6 Q       I mean,   you  couldn't  trap plus  run  the   sawmill?  7 A  No.  8 Q  Okay.  When did you first trap?  9 A  I started when I was 16 years old.  10 Q  Okay.  And you started on the Harvey and Nelson  11 properties?  12 A  No, I had a registered trapline up from Ben Nelson's  13 ranch to Silver King Basin.  14 Q  Before you received the registered trapline, did you  15 ever set a trap?  16 A  Just around home when we were kids.  17 Q  Okay.  And did you set traps on the Harvey and Nelson  18 farms with their permission at that time?  19 A  No, not before I had the registered trapline.  20 Q  Okay.  Are you aware that Nelson and Harvey gave you  21 permission to trap on their farms?  22 A  Well, after I got the registered trapline, I trapped  23 on their property, and then I had written permission  24 from several other land owners to trap on private  25 property.  26 Q       Okay.     Do you  know  that  that  registered trapline you  27 had was first  registered in 1926?  2 8 A      No,   I  didn't  know  that.  29 Q       And  that  it was  re-registered in 1931   and —  30 A      I  knew  that Peavine Harvey  said he had it  registered  31 one  time.     I  don't  know whether he did or  not.     But he  32 said he owned it one time.     So  I assumed he owned it  33 before I  got  it.  34 Q       Okay.     That's —   that's what you  understood?  35 A       That's what  I   understood.  36 Q       Right.     So you were  unaware that  Peter  Bazil   senior  37 had a  registered  trapline  that  included the  Driftwood  38 Creek area?  39 MR.  WILLMS:     I  object.  40 MR.   GRANT:     No,   I  am ~  41 MR.  WILLMS:    Just ask him if  he was aware.     Don't say you were  42 unaware of  that.     Was he aware —  43 MR.   GRANT:     Do you want  to formulate  the questions,   Mr.   Willms,  44 for  me?  45 MR. WILLMS: Well, if you are not going to formulate them  46 properly, yes, I will help you out.  47 MR. GRANT: I can lead this witness on cross, and I take 19  A.E.   Fletcher   (for   Province)  Cross-exam  by  Mr.   Grant  1 exception —   I  take  exception to your   interruptions,  2 Mr.   Willms.  3 MR.   WILLMS:    Well,   carry  on.  4 MR.   GRANT:  5 Q      You were unaware that Peter Bazil  had a registered  6 trapline in  the  Driftwood Canyon?  7 A       That's  right.  8 Q      At the time that the ranches and the farms were being  9 set   up in  the 1928  to 1935   period,  were — were you  10 aware of whether   the —  Mr.   Harvey or  Peavine Harvey  11 or Bill  Nelson let anyone  other   than  themselves  trap  12 on  their  farms before they  allowed you to?  13 A      No,   I  don't  know   that.  14 Q      Okay.     Do you recall   seeing  "No Trespassing"  signs?  15 A      No.  16 Q       Now,   between — what year   did you get your   trapline  17 registration?  18 A  I was 16, and I know my folks had to sign for me,  19 because I was under age.  20 Q  Okay.  21 A      That would  be —  22 Q      That would be  1934?  23 A       '34   or   '35.     I   can't  remember  exactly.  24 Q       Okay.  25 A       '34  or   '35.     Somewhere around there.  26 Q       Did you  know Lame Arthur   Michell?  27 A      No.  28 Q       I am  going to read to you from a letter,   and I  just  29 want to  know  if  this refreshes your memory about  30 anything happening around 1934 when you were 16.     This  31 is  a letter  from  Mr.   Muirhead,   the Game Warden,   of  32 January  24th,   1934.     It's from  the federal  documents.  33 4505.     And he is writing to  the  Indian agents,   and he  34 said:  35  36 "There has been considerable correspondence  37 during the winter  between the Game Department  38 and two white men,   one Ben Nelson and one  C.G.  39 Harvey,   both are residents of Driftwood Creek  40 and their  address  is Smithers,   B.C."  41  42 Now,   this would be the same Ben Nelson —  there  43 was only one Ben Nelson and C.G.   Harvey there at  that  44 time.  45  46 "It is claimed by these two white men, and  47 rightly so, that Indians, during the last few 20  A.E.   Fletcher   (for   Province)  Cross-exam  by  Mr.   Grant  1 years,   have  seldom  trapped on Driftwood Creek  2 and  that Lame  Michel   and his  family,   to whom  3 this section belongs,   have not trapped there  4 for   the  past  two yeas.  5 Consequently  these  two men have asked and  6 even  demand  under  Section  16(1)   of   the   'Game  7 Act'   to be allowed to trap and to register  8 Driftwood  Creek  and  tributaries from Lot  13   to  9 its  source.  10 As it is well known that Lame Michel and  11 his family are more deeply interested in taking  12 out ties and telephone poles, et cetera, than  13 they are in trapping, and thereby are  14 encroaching on the white mans way of making a  15 living, it has been suggested that the required  16 part of the Peter Bazel registration be  17 cancelled and handed over to these two white  18 men."  19  20 Now,   does that  refresh your  memory  about  any  21 efforts  by  Mr.   Nelson and Mr.   Harvey  to acquire  that  22 Driftwood Creek trapline?  23 A       They  never   talked to me about  it.  24 Q       You never   knew  that they  were making these  complaints  25 in  1934 when you were 16?  26 A       I was only 16,   and —  27 Q  When did you first express an interest in getting this  28 trapline registration?  29 A  When I was 16.  30 MR. GRANT:  Exhibit 1.  31  32 (EXHIBIT NO. 1 - LETTER DATED JANUARY 24th,  33 193 4 FROM MR. MUIRHEAD, GAME WARDEN, TO MR.  34 MORTIMER, INDIAN AGENT)  35  36 Q  Now, as I indicated, that was on January 24th, 1934,  37 and I would like to show you two applications for  38 registration of a trapline, and one is — the first  39 one is October 23rd, 1926, Peter Bazil application for  40 registration of a trapline.  And I would like you to  41 take a look for the description on that, and ask if  42 you would agree with me that that description would  43 include the Driftwood Canyon area from your reading of  44 it.  In other words, would include the area that  45 subsequently became yours.  46 MR. FREY:  Mr. Grant, is that from that same file, 4505?  47 MR. GRANT:  Yes. 21  A.E.   Fletcher   (for   Province)  Cross-exam by  Mr.   Grant  1 THE WITNESS:     It  says to the headwaters of  Driftwood Creek,   but  2 it  doesn't  say what it — whether  it includes the  3 creek or   it includes the — or whether  it's the height  4 of land between Driftwood Creek and Rieseter  Creek.  5 Q       Okay.     But  it  says:  6  7 "Six miles to the headwaters of Driftwood Creek  8 following  the   same to outlet".  9  10 So the outlet,   obviously,   would be where Driftwood  11 goes  down  into  the Bulkley  River?  12 A      Yes.  13 Q       Okay.     I'll  mark that  in a moment,   but   I would just  14 like  to  refer you to one more.     And  this  is one  of —  15 an application for   registration of  a trapline dated  16 October  1st,   1928.     And  this would —   if you would  17 agree that  this would include your  —  what later  18 became your   registered  trapline.  19 A      Well,   my  understanding  is that most  traplines are a  20 height  of land.     Like my  trapline  up Driftwood  Creek,  21 the height of  land was the edge  of  my  trapline between  22 that  and  somebody  else on  the height  of land between  23 Rieseter   Creek and Driftwood Creek.     So  I  don't  know  24 if   this includes  the height of land on  both sides of  25 the creek or  just  one  side of  the creek or —  26 Q       Okay.     You are  not —  so you  are  not  sure,   even  though  27 it  says:  28  29 "Six miles to the headwaters of Driftwood Creek  30 following the  same to the outlet of Bulkley  31 River,   following the latter  to Duck Lake."  32  33 Now,   let's take  "following the latter  to Duck  34 Lake".     And  then  it  says   "All watersheds  flowing into  35 Bulkley River  in area".     So you're saying you are  36 still  not sure whether  or  not  that — when it  says  37 "following Driftwood Creek to the outlet of the  38 Bulkley River",  whether  it's following the creek or  39 the height of land?  40 A      Well,   I am not sure if  it includes on the height of  41 land on both sides of  the creek or  just  one side of  42 the  creek.     It  doesn't  say Driftwood Creek though.  43 Q      I'm sorry.  44 A      It  says it follows Driftwood Creek,   but  it doesn't say  45 the height of land.  46 Q      And the ones that you're familiar with,   for  example,  47 yours — 22  A.E.   Fletcher   (for   Province)  Cross-exam  by  Mr.  Grant  1  A  2  Q  3  A  4  5  Q  6  A  7    MR. GRA1  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16    MR. GRA]  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  Q  25  26  A  27  Q  28  A  29  Q  30  31  A  32  Q  33  A  34  Q  35  36  37  A  38  Q  39  A  40  Q  41  A  42  Q  43  44  A  45  Q  46  A  47  Q  Was —  Refers to the height of  land between —  Driftwood and Rieseter  Creek.     That was a  boundary  between me and the next  guy.  Okay.     Who you   knew was an  Indian trapper?  Yes.  :       Okay.     I would ask that the October —  the  application for   registration of a trapline  of  Peter  Bazil,   dated October  23rd,   1926   at Telkwa B.C.,   be  marked as  Exhibit 2.  (EXHIBIT  NO.   2   -   APPLICATION   FOR  REGISTRATION   OF A  TRAPLINE  OF   PETER  BAZIL -  DATED  OCTOBER   23,   1926   -  TELKWA,   B.C.)  :    And the application for  registration of  a trapline  marked  granted  of  Peter Bazil,   dated October  1st,   1928  at Victoria,   B.C.,   be marked as Exhibit 3.  (EXHIBIT  NO.   3   -   APPLICATION   FOR  REGISTRATION   OF A TRAPLINE  OF   PETER BAZIL -  DATED  OCTOBER   1,   192 8  -  VICTORIA,   B.C.)  Now,   I  can't  remember   if you did tell  me  that you knew  Peter Bazil   senior.     Did you  know  him?  Yes,   I think I  did.     He lived in Moricetown.  Okay.     And he — he had a number  of  sons?  Yes.  Yes.     Now,   in January 17th,  1935  the Game Warden — by  the way,   did you  know Mr.  Muirhead?  Yes.  Did you know  him well?  Yes.  And he — you know that he was the one responsible  for — in charge, the Game Warden in charge at the  time you got your trapline?  Yes.  Did you know  him at that time?  Yes.  And was he a family friend?  No.  Okay.  How did you know him? In other words, in what  way did you know him?  Just by applying for a trapline through him.  How long was he here?  I think he was here maybe ten years.  Okay. When you started work in 1952 for the Game 23  A.E.   Fletcher   (for   Province)  Cross-exam  by  Mr.   Grant  1 Department  he was no  longer  here?  2 A      No.     Les  Cox was in  charge.  3 Q      And Les Cox replaced Mr.   Muirhead,   as I  understand,  4 around 1948?  5 A      That's right.  6 Q       Now,   this document   is from 10433,   federal  document  7 number,   and it's  a letter  dated January 17th,   1935  8 from  Mr.   Muirhead to  the  Inspector,   Mr.   Van Dyk,   or  9 the  officer   commanding  the Game Division.     Now,   it  10 says:     "The trapline   ...",   and I am going to read this  11 to you to  see  if you   know   if  it refreshes your memory  12 about what was  going  on  at  this time.  13  14 "The  trapline  of   the marginally  noted company  of  15 Indians  is hereby  cancelled."  16  17 And that's  Peter  Bazil   and Company,   Moricetown  18 B.C.  19  20 "Reason:     Cancelled to make way for   the  21 application of  Allen  E.   Fletcher  of  Smithers,  22 B.C.,  who has obtained permission from  the  23 owners to trap on  privately owned lands inside  24 the  Peter  Bazil   and Co.   registration.  25 Application of  Allen  E.   Fletcher  is  26 enclosed herewith.  27 A new application will  be forwarded from  2 8 Peter  Bazil   and Company,   as  soon as  Peter  Bazil  29 can  be interviewed and a  signature obtained."  30  31 Now,   the permission that you had obtained from  32 owners to  trap on  privately owned lands,   this would  33 have been —  the two owners in your  trapline at that  34 time would have  been  Harvey and Nelson?  35 A      Yes.  36 Q  And they were the ones that you had obtained  37 permission around that time from?  38 A  Yes.  3 9 Q  Now, from the appearance of this document, your  40 application was initiated in January of 1985, but it  41 was not — it was not — it was initiated at that  42 time.  Now, were you aware that your application  43 required the cancellation of part of the Peter Bazil  44 trapline?  45 A      No,   I  didn't.  46 Q      Okay.     And this doesn't assist in refreshing your  47 memory on any of  that? 24  A.E.   Fletcher   (for   Province)  Cross-exam  by  Mr.   Grant  A  No.  Q  You  have no reason  to  dispute thi  A  say  No.  s?  GRANT  Exhi  .bit 4.  (EXHIBIT NO.  193 5 FROM MR  4 - LETTER  . MUIRHEAD,  1  2        Q  You have no reason to dispute this, though, what he  3  4  5    MR.  6  7 (EXHIBIT   NO.   4   -   LETTER   DATED JANUARY   17,  8 193 5   FROM   MR.   MUIRHEAD,   GAME WARDEN  9 DOCUMENT  10433)  10  11 Q  Now, I am showing you a memo from Mr. Muirhead to the  12 officer commanding, the same person of November 6th,  13 1935, again relating to the Peter Bazil and Company  14 trapline.  And he states there — this is November  15 6th, '35.  So this is actually after your 17th  16 birthday.  17 A  Yes.  18 Q  Correct.  19  20 "With reference to your letter of the 30th, re  21 the above mentioned, I beg to advise that in my  22 letter of September 24th, '35 accompanying the  23 application of Allen E.  Fletcher of Smithers,  24 B.C., I asked to be advised if his, Allen E.  25 Fletcher's application should be accepted so as  26 I might prepare a new application for Peter  27 Bazil & Co. corresponding therewith.  I cannot  2 8 very well submit a new application until this  29 matter is dealt with."  30  31 Now, does this assist to refresh your memory that  32 as of November 6th, 1935 you still had not yet  33 received a registered trapline?  34 A  Yes, I guess so.  35 Q  Okay.  You have no reason to differ with this?  36 A  No.  37 MR. GRANT:   I ask that that be marked as Exhibit 5 please.  38  39 (EXHIBIT NO. 5 - DOCUMENT FROM MR. MUIRHEAD,  40 GAME WARDEN TO THE OFFICER COMMANDING - D  41 GAME DIVISION)  42  43 (PROCEEDINGS ADJOURNED)  44 (PROCEEDINGS RECONVENED)  45  46 Q  Were you aware that Peter Bazil had T.B. around this  47 period of time? 25  A.E.   Fletcher   (for   Province)  Cross-exam by  Mr.   Grant  A  No.  Q  Okay.  that?  A  No.  0  Okay.  1  2 Q       Okay.     You did  know  him,   but you weren't aware  of  3  4  5 Q       Okay.     I  am  going to  show you a letter  that  refers to  6 Exhibit 1,   and  it's  document number — you don't  need  7 to look at  Exhibit 1  again,   because  it refers to  8 Exhibit 1,   and  it's a letter  dated March 9th,   1936  9 from Mr.   Mortimer,   the Indian agent,   to Mr.  — to the  10 inspector.     And again  it's  talking about  this  11 trapline,   and this  is March 9th of  1936.     So at  this  12 period  of   time you would have  been —  this would have  13 been later.     You would have been 17   and-a-half years  14 of  age.     And he   states:  15  16 "I  am  in  receipt  of your  letter  of 3rd March  17 regarding the above mentioned trap-line and,   in  18 reply,   wish  to state that the present head -  19 Peter  Bazil -  suffers from T.B.   and,   for   the  20 last  few winters,   has been  unable to do much  21 work  and  could not  proceed to his hunting  22 ground.     However,   other  members of  the  company  23 were instructed to go and I have no reason to  24 doubt  that they have visited the area each  25 winter."  26  27 Then he describes he is going to go to Moricetown  28 when the roads improve.  And he goes on to say:  29  30 "I have a letter from Mr. Game Warden Muirhead,  31 dated January 24th, 1934, in which he mentioned  32 two white men - Ben Nelson and C.G. Harvey,  33 address Smithers, B.C. - having applied for  34 part of this trap-line.  According to your  35 letter Allen E. Fletcher of Telkwa now applies  36 for some part of this registered territory.  I  37 have no hesitation in saying that this is  38 Indian hunting ground, surrounded entirely by  39 other Indian hunting grounds, and would  40 therefore ask for your full cooperation in  41 holding this area for the benefit of Indians.  42 One of the members of this trap-line is in  43 the office at this moment and it is his  44 intention to visit this hunting ground for the  45 purpose of trapping at once."  46  47 Now, the Allen E. Fletcher of Telkwa he 26  A.E.   Fletcher   (for   Province)  Cross-exam  by  Mr.   Grant  1 is referring to,   that would be yourself?  2 A       Yes.  3 Q  I mean, there is no other Allen E. Fletcher that you  4 know of?  5 A  No.  6 Q  And you, I believe, even state in your affidavit that  7 you are aware that the registered traplines on both  8 sides of yours are held — were held by Indians?  9 A  I assumed that, or I was under the impression they  10 were both Indian traplines on both sides of me.  I  11 think Bazil was on one side and Naziel on the other  12 side.  13 Q  Okay.  When you say Bazil, you are talking about Peter  14 Bazil?  15 A  I think so.  16 Q  Right.  And do you know the Naziel, what name it was,  17 the first name I should say?  18 A  No.  19 Q  Okay.  I would — but you are not aware of this  20 letter, and you have no reason to dispute what Mr.  21 Mortimer says?  22 A  No.  23 MR. GRANT:  Exhibit 6.  24  25 (EXHIBIT NO. 6 - LETTER FROM MR. MORTIMER -  26 INDIAN AGENT)  27  28 Q  Now, I should say that in this letter Mr. — this has  29 become significant — does state that he is going to  30 take the first opportunity to visit Moricetown and  31 investigate this matter and will report to you fully.  32 Now, I am going to give you a series of letters, some  33 of which I will refer to, and they are all from  34 federal document 10484, and they refer to this same  35 trapline.  And I — you don't have to read them all.  36 I will just refer you to the ones that are important,  37 and we'll deal with them.  The first letter is a  38 letter from Mr. Van Dyk to the Game Commission of  39 March 11, 1936, and it says only the six, but I think  40 it's apparent it's 1936. And in that letter he refers  41 to the letter that we have just looked at from the  42 Indian agent Mr. Mortimer, and he attests, Mr. Van  43 Dyk — this is of course now the inspector — that  44 your application in this third full paragraph:  45  46 "The application of Mr. Fletcher should be  47 accepted and registered." 27  A.E.   Fletcher   (for   Province)  Cross-exam  by  Mr.   Grant  1  2 And then he  says:  3  4 "In regard to Indian trapping areas, and in view  5 of the letter received by you from Dr. J.T.  6 Mandy, resident mining engineer, Prince Rupert,  7 under the date of January 17th, I respectfully  8 suggest that whenever any trapping area is not  9 occupied or trapped as provided in the game act  10 or the regulations, such areas should be  11 cancelled and the territory registered in the  12 name of the first qualified person applying for  13 the same.  In the case under review, the facts  14 have been well established and the same should  15 be dealt with on its merits.  Such action will  16 undoubtedly create a lot of criticism from the  17 Indian Department, but sooner or later the  18 rights of white trappers and prospectors will  19 have to be recognized and it will be necessary  20 to take steps similar to those outlined in the  21 above case.  I am awaiting your decision in  22 this matter before replying to Mr. Mortimer's  23 letter."  24  25 Now,  you were aware that in your  application of  —  26 around this  period of  time,   or at least Mr.   Nelson and  27 Mr.   Harvey were  saying — were asking that this area  2 8 be  trapped,   because  they hadn't  seen other  trappers  29 there.     You were aware of  that?  30 A       I was aware  that  they were interested in it.  31 Q      And they were interested in the registration?  32 A       I  think  Mr.   Harvey —  he   said  that he had  it  33 registered under  his name before me.     I don't know  if  34 he was telling the  truth or  not.  35 Q       Right.     Okay.     He  never   said it was  registered  in  36 Peter Bazil's  name  or  in an  Indian's  name?  37 A       He  just  said he applied  it.  38 Q      He  said he had applied for  it?  39 A       Yes.  40 Q      Okay.     Now,   if you look to the second letter  of  March  41 24th,   '36,   this is  the letter from the Inspector  of  42 the Game Commission,   and he states that:  43  44 "We feel  that no further  action should be  taken  45 in  connection with this particular  application  46  47 And he is referring to your  application.  n 28  A.E.   Fletcher   (for  Province)  Cross-exam  by  Mr.   Grant  1  2 "Until a further report is received from Indian  3 Agent Mortimer as mentioned in the second  4 paragraph of his letter dated 9th instance.  5 As soon as this further report is received  6 from this Indian Agent will you please forward  7 same to this office, when a decision will be  8 given as to whether or not Mr. Fletcher's  9 application can be accepted."  10  11 So as of March 24th, 1936 it appears your  12 application for registration was still not accepted.  13 And you would agree with that?  14 A  Yes.  15 Q  Then the third letter is a letter from Mr. Van Dyk to  16 Mr. Mortimer of June 8th, 1936, requesting that Mr.  17 Mortimer advise Mr. Van Dyk of the result of his  18 investigation.  19  20 "As I would like to get this matter   straightened  21 out as  soon as possible,   I would be very much  22 obliged if  you would advise me what you found  23 out with regards to this matter."  24  25 And then November  6th,   1936   there  is a  further  26 letter  relating to your  trapline in which in the first  27 paragraph Mr.   Van Dyk reports to the game commission  28 and  says:  29  30 "Mr. Mortimer, the Indian agent has not to date  31 submitted the report dealing with the matter as  32 promised in his March 9th, 1936 letter."  33  34 He then goes on to say:  35  36 "In view of the lack of interest shown by the  37 Indian Department in the matter under review, I  3 8 respectfully suggest that the application  39 submitted by Mr. Fletcher and forwarded from  40 this office under covering letter dated  41 February 31st, 1986 be accepted and  42 registered."  43  44 And he goes on to reiterate that any registered  45 trapline holder whose not trapping should have his  46 registration cancelled in the future.  47 So you have no reason to dispute this letter 29  A.E.   Fletcher   (for   Province)  Cross-exam  by  Mr.   Grant  1 either,   I  take  it?  2 A      No.  3 Q  And this would suggest that as of November 6th, 1936  4 you are 18 years of age, and you still have not got a  5 registered trapline?  6 A  Yes.  7 Q       And then on November  16th,   1936  Mr.   Butler  of   the Game  8 Commission writes and  states  that:  9  10 "In view of  the contents thereof Mr.   Fletcher's  11 previous application has  been cancelled,   and  12 his application of   September  18th,   1935  13 accepted and substituted  therefor.  14 Mr.   Fletcher  should,   however,   forward a  15 Return  of   Catch for   the  season 1935-36,   and  16 surrender  his expired Special  Firearms Licence  17 #   47 537,   and you  should advise me as to  the  18 number   of   this trapper's  current  Special  19 Firearms  Licence.  20 Will you please let me have a new  21 application  in favour  of   Peter Bazil  and  22 Company,   Indians."  23  24 So the first time that your application is  25 accepted is after you are 18 years of age, November of  26 1936?  27 A  Yes.  28 Q  And you now, from review of this, you would agree with  29 me that in fact when you looked at those trapline  30 registrations of Mr. Bazil, you were unclear as to  31 whether or not his boundary was at that point the  32 height of land or not.  But it's clear here that the  33 reason why your application was delayed so long was  34 because it required the cancellation of part of Mr.  35 Bazil's  registration.  36 MR.   WILLMS:     I  object.     That's argument.     That's just pure  37 argument,   Mr.   Grant.     That's not a question.     He can't  38 agree with  it.     He's never  seen these documents  39 before.  40 MR.  GRANT:    He  can agree with what he's read.  41 MR.  WILLMS:     No.     I object.     That's argument,   Mr.   Grant.     That's  42 not  a  proper question.  43 MR.   GRANT:  44 Q  Do you agree that — are you aware of any reason why  45 your application was delayed from the time you  46 initiated it in September, 1935 until November, 1936?  47 A  No. 30  A.E. Fletcher (for Province)  Cross-exam by Mr. Grant  1  Q  2  A  3  Q  4  5  6  7  8  9  A  10  Q  11  A  12  MR. GRANT  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  Q  22  23  24  25  A  26  Q  27  A  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  Q  40  A  41  Q  42  A  43  Q  44  A  45  Q  46  47  A  Other than what is set out in these documents?  No.  Okay.  You would agree with me now, when you look at  exhibit — when you look at Exhibit 2 and Exhibit 3,  would you now agree that that description there  includes the Driftwood Canyon, which is part of your  registration? These are the 1926 and 1928  registrations.  It's a little bit vague, but —  You would agree with me it includes Driftwood Canyon?  Yes, I guess so.  :  Okay.  What I would ask is that this series of  correspondence from March 11th, 1936, including seven  letters up to and including December 17th, 1936 be  marked as the next exhibit.  (EXHIBIT NO. 7 - SERIES OF CORRESPONDENCE  FROM MARCH 11, 1936 UP TO AND INCLUDING  DECEMBER 17, 1936 - DOCUMENT 10484)  Now, we have gone through some of the documents about  this trapline.  Can you tell me where your trapline is  located? I understand it's sold now, but the trapline  you acquired in 1936, where is it?  It's on Driftwood Creek.  From the mouth?  No.  From the start of Ben Nelson's property line,  that's private property up there, it started past last  homestead, like Ben Nelson's homestead started there  and went to the height of the land, Driftwood Creek,  Silver King Basin height of land there, and on the  left-hand side, the height of land between Driftwood  and Rieseter Creek and on the other side, on the  right-hand side the land between Peter Bazil and the  Driftwood Creek land was the height of land.  Like  there is a creek comes down from Babine called Line  Creek, and to the best of my knowledge that was the  southern boundary on my trapline.  And what was the name of that second creek?  Line Creek.  Comes out of the Babine mountains.  Okay.  And how far up did it go?  Line Creek?  No, your trapline.  Silver King Basin.  Approximately 10 miles.  And did that include — would that include Two Bridge  Lake?  No.  No. 31  A.E,   Fletcher   (for   Province)  Cross-exam  by  Mr.   Grant  1 Q Okay.     If  you trapped up to the —  let me —  this  is  2 what I  understand.     You  correct me if  I'm wrong.     If  3 you leave from Nelson's property,   there is a trail  4 that goes up Driftwood Creek?  5 A The whole mining road.  6 Q Right.  And then there is a fork?  7 A Uh-huh.  8 Q And the left fork goes up towards Two Bridge Lake?  9 A That's right.  10 Q Is that right?  11 A Yes.  12 Q And the right fork, I think, goes to the mine, if I  13 remember right?  14 A Yes.  15 Q Now, the left fork, did you trap on the left fork?  16 A Just to the height of land.  That was the boundary.  17 Q Okay.  Just — and the left fork would go up to the  18 height of land and then down to Two Bridge?  19 A Yes.  20 Q Is that right?  21 A That's right.  22 Q I just want to get my — you know this geography  23 better than I do, Mr. Fletcher.  24 A Yes.  25 Q Now, at the height of land there was a beaver pond; is  26 that right?  27 A That's right.  28 Q And that beaver pond had a sign at it.  Do you  29 remember that?  30 A No, I never saw any sign there.  31 Q Did you see any beaver there in — or was it  32 abandoned?  33 A Abandoned beaver.  34 Q I am instructed there was a sign there that the last  35 beaver was taken out of that pond in 1937.  Do you  36 remember that sign?  37 A No.  38 Q So you never went to Two Bridge Lake as a trapper?  39 A No.  40 Q What time of year would you trap in there?  41 A From the first of November 'til the end of February.  42 Q Okay.  And what was the first year that you trapped  43 there, now that you see these documents that help your  44 memory?  45 A Yes.  I ~  46 Q Let me put it this way. Would it have been before or  47 after you received your registered trapline? 32  A.E. Fletcher (for Province)  Cross-exam by Mr. Grant  1 A  It had to be after I received the registered trapline.  2 Q  Wait a minute.  3 MR. WILLMS:  To help the witness, I am putting Exhibit 7, the  4 letter of December 9th, which talks about his return  5 of ~  6 MR. GRANT:  I'll put it to him.  You can mention it to me.  You  7 can't help him out.  Mention it to me, and I'll put it  8 to him.  9 MR. WILLMS:  Do you want to put to him the December 9th, 1936  10 letter from Exhibit 7, which refers to his return of  11 catch for the '35/'36 season, to assist him.  12 MR. GRANT:  I was going to come to that.  13 Q  You see that that letter in Exhibit 7 refers to a  14 return of catch for the '35/'36 season.  Now, this, of  15 course, is a letter written by Mr. Butler, the office  16 of the Game Commission in Vancouver.  This is about as  17 far removed from the reality of your trapping as  18 anybody in the Games Branch could be at that time, I  19 think, because it went through the inspector.  20 MR. WILLMS:  It's written by Mr. Muirhead, the Game Warden.  21 MR. GRANT:  Which letter?  22 MR. WILLMS:  December 9th.  It's a letter from Mr. Muirhead to  23 Prince George.  24 MR. GRANT:  Oh, okay.  25 MR.   WILLMS:     And  it  says that  he —  he encloses the firearms  26 licence  of  Mr.   Fletcher,   and it  also   says  that he  27 encloses Mr.   Fletcher's return of  catch for  the  28 1935/1936   season.  29 MR.   GRANT:     Yes.     Before you answer  —  I'll  ask you the  30 questions,   Mr.   Fletcher.  31 Do you have  that  return of  catch,   by  the way,   Mr.  32 Willms,   because  that  return of  catch is not in your  33 trapline documents,   and I  did not obtain it,   and it  34 should be  something  that would be in the provincial  35 defendant's possession,   now  that you have made  36 something of   it.     I would ask you to  note  it.     I would  37 like  it produced.  38 MR.   GRANT:  3 9        Q  Do you remember whether or not you —  40 MR. WILLMS:  It's not in the Brodie trapline files?  41 MR. GRANT:  No.  If it was, I would have found it.  42 Q  Do you remember whether or not you made a return for  43 1935, '36?  44 A      Jesus,   that's fifteen years ago.  45 Q      I  know,   and I am trying to — aside from  all of  this  46 confusion,   I am just trying to get  clear  about when  47 you would have started.     If you are not sure,   that's 33  A.E.   Fletcher   (for   Province)  Cross-exam  by  Mr.   Grant  1 okay.     If  you don't  remember  —  2 A       I   know   it was  around when  I was  16,   17,  18,   but  that's  3 50  years ago.  4 Q  Okay.  You do remember at some point getting a  5 trapline registration?  6 A  Yes.  7 Q  And you got a document?  8 A  Yes.  9 Q  And I believe the practise was that a copy was given  10 to you at that time.  You remember getting one from  11 Mr. Muirhead at some point?  12 A  Yes, I think so.  13 Q  Yes.  And it was in your name?  14 A  Yes.  15 Q      You  don't have that  copy  of  that,   do you?  16 A      No.  17 Q  Okay.  Now, let's say that you started after you  18 received the application.  It's not going to —  19 MR. WILLMS:  No, I object.  Let's not say that.  The document  20 that you marked as an exhibit, Mr. Grant, says that he  21 trapped in '35 and '36.  That's what it says.  22 MR. GRANT:  And you have not produced —  23 MR. WILLMS: Well, I'll look for it.  I'll certainly look for  24 it.  25 MR.   GRANT:     Mr.   Willms,   read  it.     It  doesn't  say  that he  trapped  26 in   '35,   '36.     It   says   "together with his  return  of  27 catch for   season   '35,   '36".  28 Q      Let me ask you this,   Mr.   Fletcher.     Maybe you  can help  29 Mr.   Willms out.     If —  as a registered trapline holder  30 you were obligated each year when you registered to do  31 a  return of  catch,   right?  32 A      That's  right.  33 Q       Now,   if you didn't  go  out   in a year,   you would still  34 do a return of  catch,   right,   if  that happened?     I  35 mean,   what you do  is you fill   in the form and you say  36 I  didn't  catch anything,   and you  sent  it  in?  37 A      I  can't remember  in those  days whether you had to do  3 8 that  or  not.  39 Q       Okay.     But  in  subsequent years you did that?  40 A      Yes,   you  did.     But  I  don't   know  in 1936  or   '37  or  41 whatever  if you had to do  that.  42 MR.  GRANT:       That's fair.     I would ask,   since  the Fish and  43 Wildlife branch is here,   determine at the lunch hour  44 if  that document is available.     I am going to review  45 the written file again,   but  I did not find that return  46 of  catch.     Because you made such a thing of  it,   I  am  47 not  going to be able to conclude until  I  see that 34  A.E.   Fletcher   (for   Province)  Cross-exam  by  Mr.   Grant  1 document.  2 Q       In any   event,   I  am  going to —   just  assume for   the  3 purpose  of  this discussion  that you started trapping  4 in —  after  November,   1936,  when you got your  5 application.     Now,   did —  6 MR.   WILLMS:     I  object.     I  am  just  going to put my  objection on  7 the record.     You  can ask it,   and then we will  deal  8 with  it  in front of  the Chief Justice,   but that's  9 quite   improper,   Mr.   Grant,   and  I object to that.     But  10 go  ahead and ask —  11 MR.   GRANT:     I   can  put any assumption  I want.  12 MR.   WILLMS:     You  can tell   him to assume  that he started trapping  13 in  1952,   and  if we were in front  of  the judge,   the  14 judge would say how  can we assume that,  when we know  15 he  trapped  earlier.  16 MR.   GRANT:     I  haven't asked the question,   Mr.   Willms.  17 MR.   WILLMS:     You  said assume he  started trapping  after  November  18 of  1936.     That's exactly what you said.  19 MR.  GRANT:     Mr.   Willms,  we are  going to  be here tomorrow at   this  20 rate.     I want you to know  that.     And it's because  of  21 your   continual wanting to  barricade  the  cross.  22 Q      Mr.   Fletcher,   I am  saying that for   the purpose  of  my  23 question let  us assume  that you started trapping after  24 you received your  application of  registration of  25 trapline in 1936.     My question to you  is  this:     From  26 the  time  that you  commenced trapping at that time,   did  27 you trap at each and every year  until you worked at  28 the  sawmill   in 1948?  29 A       Yes.  30 Q  Okay.  And I think, as I remember before this  31 interjection of Mr. Willms, that you said you'd trap  32 from the beginning of November until March; is that  33 right?  34 A  No, end of February.  35 Q  To the end of February.  And is that the time you  36 trapped, from 1936/'37 until 1947? You are nodding  37 affirmatively.  38 A  Yes.  39 Q  Okay.  Now, how was it? How was trapping there in  40 that period of time?  41 A  Well, in that period of time there was no beaver on  42 Driftwood Creek.  43 Q  Did you trap mainly for beaver, or did you trap other  44 species too?  45 A  Mink and marten, and there was hardly any marten in  46 those days, but mostly mink and weasel and coyote and  47 fox. 35  A.E.   Fletcher   (for   Province)  Cross-exam by  Mr.   Grant  1  Q  2  3  A  4  Q  5  6  7  8  9  A  10  Q  11  12  A  13  Q  14  15  A  16  Q  17  A  18  Q  19  A  20  Q  21  22  A  23  Q  24  25  A  26  Q  27  28  29  30  A  31  32  Q  33  34  35  A  36  Q  37  38  A  39  Q  40  A  41  Q  42  A  43  Q  44  45  A  46  Q  47  Did you in any one of  those years have anyone else  trap with you?  No.  From  the  geography,   as  I   understand  it,   would it be  correct  to   say  that you  could actually  go out,   set  your  line,   and then you would come  back to your  —  your  ranch was your  home base?    In other words,  you  didn't have  to trap out —  I  had a  trapline  cabin at  Silver   King Basin.  Okay.     You did.     But  I  am  saying you  could go and do  your   trapline and  come  back the   same  day.  Yes.  Did you — when did you — did you build the cabin up  at Silver King?  Yes.  What year would that have been?  I would be 19 or 20.  Okay.     So  it would have  been after   a few years?  Yes.  Now, that cabin on Silver King Basin that you built,  that would have been within your registered trapline?  Yes.  Okay.  How often would you go out to your trapline in  that winter — in those winters of that decade?  Twice a week.  Okay.  And what else did you do for — in that decade,  besides — in the winters? Did you work the farm, or  did you do work for — contract work for others as  well?  I worked part-time in the bush cutting wood, selling  wood.  Right.     Okay.     Now,   you started packing.     As  I  understand,  you ran  pack trains as well.     That was  later.     That was 1947  from your  affidavit.  Yes.  And so in this decade between 1937 and 1947 you  trapped your trapline in this winter period?  Yes.  You ran the family farm, basically; is that right?  I was married then.  Okay.  I was married when I was 23, so —  Okay.  Before you got married, when you were trapping  did you run the family farm then?  Yes.  And what — were you raising cattle and sheep at that  time? 36  A.E.   Fletcher   (for  Province)  Cross-exam  by  Mr.   Grant  1 A Just  cattle and hay.  2 Q Did you have help,   or were you  doing  it yourself?  3 A Just  by  myself.  4 Q It was  a full-time  —  5 A My  brother  lived there  until   he went  in the army.  6 Q Edison?  7 A Yes.  8 Q Yes.  And so it was a full-time occupation, I take it?  9 A Uh-huh.  10 Q Your work.  And then you — and you said you cut wood  11 for others.  That would have been like —  12 A Firewood.  13 Q And were you cutting in the Driftwood Canyon?  Is  14 that —  15 A No.  16 Q Where would you have  been  cutting?  17 A On  the  neighbour's   place.     The  neighbour  farm.     We  cut  18 some wood on his  place.  19 Q Which neighbour?  20 A Owned by  Frank Gilbert  then.     He  bought that from  21 McFee.  22 Q This is the McFee farm that we are talking about?  23 A Yes.  24 Q Okay.  The one that you presently own?  25 A Yes.  26 Q Now,   in that  period of  time you didn't do much  27 travelling to  the  other   areas  that you have  referred  28 to  in your   affidavit,   did you,   in this decade?     I  29 mean,  you were mainly  centered around your  farm?  30 A Yes.  31 Q In the '37 to '47 period did you travel to Two Bridge  32 Lake?  33 A We used to go in there in the fall, and we used to go  34 in there to fish sometimes when we were kids. We used  35 to go in there and spend a few days fishing.  36 Q And how would you get there?  37 A From Driftwood Creek at Sunny Point it's six or eight  38 miles in.  There is an old mining trail in there.  39 Q Okay.  Is this the trail, the left fork that I was  40 mentioning earlier that you are talking about?  41 A Yes.  42 Q And where does that trail go to from Two Bridge Lake?  43 A As far as I know, there is no trail past Two Bridge  44 Lake.  45 Q There was no mine at Two Bridge?  46 A Up on the side hill above Two Bridge Lake was an old  47 prospect there.  My dad worked there in 1907. 37  A.E.   Fletcher   (for   Province)  Cross-exam  by  Mr.   Grant  1 Q       Okay.     You became very  active  in what later   became  a  2 debate,   but was  considered as a problem in the earlier  3 days,   of   the wolf  kills?  4 A      Yes.  5 Q  When did you — and I gather that was one method of  6 dealing with wolves and the perceived threat of  7 wolves.  Bounty hunting for wolves was one of the  8 early ways of dealing with it.  And were you — when  9 did you first become involved with that bounty  10 hunting?  11 A      1948  the wolves  killed six head of  my  cattle.     So  then  12 I   started hunting wolves.  13 Q       So  it's  after  the period that  I  have been talking to  14 you about?  15 A      Yes.  16 Q       Did you —  in the years  subsequent to 1948,  when you  17 had the  sawmill  and you  didn't trap that year,  as  I  18 remember,   because you were working in the  sawmill,   did  19 you  use your   trapline  in  the subsequent years?  20 A       Yes.  21 Q  Would it be fair to say not as frequently, because you  22 then had other work as well?  23 A  I trapped every winter until I joined the Game  24 Department, '52.  25 Q  Okay.  Fair enough.  Now, from 1947 to 1960 you have  26 said that you packed, you ran pack trains?  27 A  Not 'til 1960.  28 Q       Okay.     Just  a moment  here.     Let's  correct  the error   in  29 your   affidavit.  30 MR.   GRANT:    What  paragraph  are you  referring to?  31 MR.  WILLMS:     Paragraph 12.  32 MR.   GRANT:  33 Q  Paragraph 11 starts:  34  35 "I started operating a pack train in 1947 ..."  36  37 We'll just leave the rest of that. Then you said:  38  39 "During my packing days which lasted until  pack  40 trains were replaced by helicopters in the  41 1960s  •  •  42  43 A      That's not  right.  44 Q      Okay.     Tell  me what  is  right.  45 A      I packed until   I joined the Game Department  in  '52,  46 and once  I worked for  the Game Department  I had to  47 quit packing. 38  A.E.   Fletcher   (for   Province)  Cross-exam  by  Mr.   Grant  1  Q  2  3  A  4  0  5  A  6  Q  7  8  A  9  Q  10  11  A  12  Q  13  A  14  Q  15  A  16  Q  17  A  18  Q  19  A  20  Q  21  22  A  23  24  25  26  Q  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  A  35  Q  36  A  37  38  Q  39  A  40  41  Q  42  A  43  Q  44  A  45  Q  46  47  A  Right.     Okay.     So you actually  packed from 1947   until  1952?  That's  right.  Okay.     Now,   what  time of  year would you pack?  Mostly  in September,   October.  And I  think you were packing for  prospectors and  survey crews in the Silver  King Basin?  Yes.  So is it right to say this is the same area that you  had been familiar with from — for many years?  Yes.  From  growing  up?  Yes.  And from  trapping?  Yes.  And so would you use  the same route?  Yes.  To go  up?  Same  trails,  yes.  That would be  the  trails  going  up from Driftwood Creek  up towards Two Bridge Lake?  Two Bridge  Lake  and Silver   King Basin and Ganakwa  Creek Basin.     I  can't spell   that.     It's G-a-n-o-k-w-a.  I  know there  is a  *N"  in there somewhere.     Yes.  G-A-N-A-K-W-A,   I  think.     It's  close enough anyway.  Okay.     Now,   who  did you — you mentioned  in paragraph  12:  "I came to know many of the old time prospectors  and miners in the Silver King area."  Can you give me the names of some of the people  you are talking about?  Yes.  Go ahead.  Tommy King, Martin Cain, C-a-i-n, Frank and Henry  Misner.  M-i-s-n-e-r, I believe.  Yes.     Axel  Olmstead.     I  packed for  all  these  prospectors.  This is in this five year  period?  Yes.  Did you pack the year you had the sawmill?  I just had the  sawmill  in the winter-time.  Oh,   okay.     So you would pack,   and then you went to  work at the  sawmill?  Yes. 39  A.E.   Fletcher   (for   Province)  Cross-exam  by  Mr.   Grant  1  Q  2  3  4  A  5  6  7  Q  8  9  10  A  11  12  13  Q  14  A  15  Q  16  17  A  18  19  Q  20  21  A  22  Q  23  24  A  25  Q  26  27  28  29  A  30  Q  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  A  43  44  45  Q  46  A  47  Q  Now,   I would just  like  to know,  when you packed for  these fellows,   did they go in with you,   or were  they  already  there  and you would bring supplies  in?  Sometimes  they were with you and sometimes  they were  there,   and you would take   in mostly dynamite  and  groceries.  Okay.     And how   long would you stay   in when you took  —  or would you turn  around and come  right  back  out  the  next  day?  Usually came back the same day, but one fall we were  in Silver King Basin for 65 days packing for a diamond  trail outfit for Cronin Mine.  And what year was that?  I think that was —  Would it have been near the beginning just before you  worked for the Game Department?  I think it was 1948.  I think the next year we were  there 30 days.  And now that 194 8 — so it would have been the same  year as you had your sawmill, later on that year?  Yes.  Okay.     Discussions  about  the  Indian people were  not  a  top priority  among the prospectors or miners,  was it?  No.  I mean,   really  in that day the Indian people were —  the  Indian  people had what  they were  doing and you had  what you were doing.     That would be a fair way of  putting  it,  wouldn't  it?  Yes.  Now, can you go to your affidavit, paragraph 10.  Have  you got it there?  You say:  "During the years after I finished my schooling,  in addition to trapping, I worked on  neighbouring ranches and farms for $1.00 a day  for nine hours' work."  Now, what years are we talking about here? And I  understand this is a long time ago, and I just — I  understand you finished your schooling in 1934, from  what you are telling me.  Yes.  I think I was 15 when I quit school, and years  like when I was 16 and 17 I worked on farm for a  dollar a day.  So obviously this wouldn't have gone on 'til '4 8?  No.  Okay.  And then these neighbouring farms would have 40  A.E.   Fletcher   (for   Province)  Cross-exam  by  Mr.  Grant  1 included the Harveys and the Nelsons and McFees —  2 A      Mostly my  neighbour  — Gilberts  that owned the  McFee  3 place.  4 Q       Okay.     And the  McFee/Gilbert place  is now your   place?  5 A       Yes.  6 Q       You make mention  in paragraph 4  that you haven't  seen  7 caribou in  the Bulkley Valley,   but you have  seen  8 caribou horns  up around Two Bridge Lake.  9 A       Yes.  10 Q  Caribou horns have also been found on Harvey Mountain?  11 A  Yes.  12 Q  And caribou were seen — I'm sorry, caribou horns  13 were — you know the mountain or the area known as the  14 Big Onion?  15 A  Yes.  16 Q      And that's up —  just describe where that  is.  17 A      That's on the  south end of  the Babine range.  18 Q      Okay.     And so   it would be  a bit  south of   Silver   King?  19 A       Five miles.  20 Q  Right.  Okay.  And there is — caribou horns have been  21 found there? You know that?  22 A  Yes.  23 Q       Now,   when you say you  didn't  see  caribou  in the  24 Bulkley Valley,   you  are  referring to lower   down,  25 right?  26 A      Yes,   lower  elevations,   yes.  27 Q      And you are referring to after  the  time of your  28 knowledge,   like  after,   say,   1930?  29 A      Yes.  30 Q      But as a guide outfitter  and as an experienced hunter  31 as you refer  to,  you  do  know  that caribou were in the  32 area?    You did  know  that,   didn't you?  33 A       I  have heard —  my  dad told me  that an  Indian  friend  34 told him  in the earlier  days there were lots of  35 caribou in  the Bulkley Valley maybe a hundred years  36 ago.  37 Q  But your dad saw caribou?  38 A  Not in the Bulkley Valley.  3 9 Q      Your dad saw caribou?  40 A  Two Bridge Lake.  41 Q  After he was there?  42 A  Yes.  1907.  43 Q  I think I asked you about Lame Arthur Michell.  Did  44 you say you knew him?  45 A  No.  46 Q      Big Tommy Michell?  47 A      The name is familiar,   but  I can't place him. 41  A.E.   Fletcher   (for   Province)  Cross-exam by  Mr.   Grant  1 Q Pat Namox?  2 A No.  3 Q Okay.  Madeline Alfred?  4 A No.  5 Q Okay.  You are indicating no for the record?  6 A Yes.  Sorry.  7 Q Henry Alfred?  8 A I  have heard the name,   but   I  can't place  him.  9 Q Could you  recognize  him  if you  saw  him?  10 A No,   I  don't  think  so.  11 Q Okay.  Let me just ask you about this.  In 1949 you  12 obtained a guiding territory at McKendrick Pass, I  13 believe, in the south, and Rieseter Lake in the north;  14 is that right?  15 A That's right.  16 Q And who did you buy it from?  17 A I didn't buy it from anybody.  It was just — you just  18 put in an application, and nobody had it before me.  19 Q You were the first?  20 A I was the first one there.  21 Q And it was a good territory, subsequently you learned?  22 A Yes, pretty good.  23 Q For guiding?  24 A Yes.  25 Q And what did you — did you sell it after 1951?  26 A No.  I had to give it up when I joined the Game  27 Department.  I lost it.  28 Q Automatically?  29 A Automatically they cancelled it.  30 Q I see.  Okay.  This was before the days of sale of  31 guiding territories in a big way?  32 A Unfortunately for me.  33 Q Do you know who owns that guiding territory today?  34 A I think — I think it's owned by one of the Chaplin  35 boys, part of it, and part by Bob Carol.  36 Q Carol —  37 A Carol  owns half,   and I  think one of the Chaplin  38 brothers owns  the other half.     I'm not sure  though.  39 Q Okay.     Now,   this guiding territory,   as I  think you  40 have described,   it would include Two Bridge Lake?  41 A That's right.  42 Q Because  that's where you had that successful —  43 particularly successful hunt of  the largest recorded  44 mountain goat?  45 A Yes.  46 Q And that — so it was important for guiding — to get  47 a guiding territory that you get an Alpine area? 42  A.E.   Fletcher   (for  Province)  Cross-exam  by  Mr.   Grant  1 A      That's  right.  2 Q       And that's  because  one  of   the  species you were  3 interested in  guiding people for,   or  people — your  4 clients were  interested  in was mountain  goat?  5 A      That's  right.  6 Q  And that would be the same for any person that wants  7 to hunt mountain goat? They would have to go to the  8 Alpine?  9 A  Yes.  10 Q  If anybody wants to hunt marmot, they would have to go  11 into the Alpine?  12 A  Yes.  13 Q  Do you hunt marmot by the way?  14 A  No.  I know what they are though.  15 Q  Sure.  Is there lynx up in that area?  16 A       Yes.  17 Q       I  am talking in the higher  regions —  the higher  18 elevations of   the Babine.  19 A      Not above timber-line.  20 Q      Just  below  timber-line?  21 A       Yes.  22 Q      Well,   paragraph  thirteen you say  that:  23  24 "In my  view,   as an experienced hunter,   there was  25 no need for  Moricetown Indians or  anyone else  26 to hunt  in the alpine areas above the  27 timberline when  there was  game at lower  28 elevations and so  close  to Moricetown."  29  30 Now,   in fairness what you describe  is after  the  31 1940s moose were  plentiful   in  the valley,   and you're  32 saying that  if   people want to hunt moose,   you don't  33 have to go to  the Alpine for  it in the Bulkley Valley?  34 A      No,   they  stayed down.     The moose  season —  they  are  35 not above timber-line.  36 Q      So if  the Wet'suwet'en — the Indian people of  37 Moricetown were  solely  interested in moose,   there was  3 8 no  need for   them  to go  to Alpine?  39 A      No.  40 Q      That's what you're  saying there?  41 A       Yes.  42 Q  But if they were interested in goat, they would have  43 to go to Alpine?  44 A  Yes.  45 Q       Or marmot,   they would have to go to Alpine?  46 A      That's  right.  47 Q      Okay.     So you are only  referring in paragraph 43  A.E.   Fletcher   (for   Province)  Cross-exam  by  Mr.   Grant  1 thirteen,   to be  fair  to you,   that you're saying that  2 there was no  need for Moricetown Indians or  anyone  3 else  to hunt  in the Alpine areas above the timber-line  4 if   they were only  hunting moose?  5 A      That's right.  6 Q      Okay.     You are aware that Indian people hunt marmot,  7 aren't you?  8 A      I haven't seen them,   but  I have heard stories about  9 it.  10 Q  Yes.  And goats?  11 A  Yes.  12 Q  Now, I would like to ask you, Mr. Fletcher, about some  13 of your guiding experience.  I understand that you  14 only hunted — would it have been — you say 1949 to  15 '51.  Did you guide, I'm sorry, three seasons or two?  16 A  Three.  17 Q      And you guided from  early September  to mid-October?  18 A      Yes.  19 Q      And you would pack  —  I  guess  in those  days you would  20 pack  in,   you wouldn't  fly?  21 A      I  had my  own horses,   yes.  22 Q      And you packed your   clients  in?  23 A      Yes.  24 Q  Would you take — in those years did you take one, two  25 or three trips in or more?  26 A  Mostly about three trips a fall.  27 Q  For a week at a time?  28 A  Usually a week, yes.  29 Q  Okay.  Now, you say:  30  31 "We usually hunted moose, bear and goats".  32  33 I understand about the world record goat.  34 A  Yes.  35 Q      Let's — did you hunt one species more than the other?  36 A      More  goats than anything.  37 Q      Right.     Okay.     Because  they were priced by  the  38 clients?  3 9 A      Once  I got the world's record goat,   everybody wanted  40 one.  41 Q  Right.  And I think you said that may have been your  42 first or second year that —  43 A  Right.  44 Q  First year.  To hunt goats or to guide, would it be  45 correct to say that it was important that you go  46 somewhere where other people were not hunting at the  47 same time? 44  A.E.   Fletcher   (for  Province)  Cross-exam  by  Mr.   Grant  1  A  2  Q  3  4  A  5  Q  6  A  7  Q  8  A  9  Q  10  11  12  13  A  14  Q  15  A  16  Q  17  18  19  20  A  21  22  23  Q  24  A  25  0  26  A  27  28  29  30  Q  31  32  33  A  34  35  36  Q  37  38  A  39  Q  40  A  41  Q  42  A  43  Q  44  45  46  A  47  Q  Yes.  And that's what —  that was  part of  your   skill   from  your   knowledge of  the area?  Yes.     Knowing the country  and knowing where they were.  You  knew  the  country,  you knew where  the goats were?  Yes.  And you knew where other  people would not be?  Too hard to  get there for  the  average person.  Right.     So my  understanding is  that you would take  about three trips in these  three  seasons,  and each  trip would be about one week.     So you would be  in  there   guiding about  three weeks?  Yes.  Of   the year?  Yes.  Now, aside from those packing trips in 1948 and '49 in  Silver King of 65 days and 35 days, that was the  exception, and most of your packing trips you were in  one day and out the next?  I packed at McDonell Lake for the forestry and  government survey, and I was in there for a couple of  weeks at a time.  And what years would that have been?  It was in —  I mean, would it —  I packed mostly for them in the spring and summer  before the guide season started.  So I think it was  the same year as I was guiding, but only in June and  July.  I see.  And so when you were guiding — in those years  that you guided, would it be fair to say that you  packed less because you were guiding at the same time?  I packed less, but I packed quite a bit in the  summertime for a couple government surveys and  forestry.  Right.  So your packing season would be in the summer,  then?  Yes.  When would you start? Like May or June?  No, June.  And go 'til the end of August?  Yes, usually.  Okay.     Do you remember — you bounty hunted for wolves  starting in 1948,   I  think you said.     That's when they  killed six of your  cattle?  Yes.  And did you continue to bounty hunt for goats until 45  A.E.   Fletcher   (for  Province)  Cross-exam  by  Mr.   Grant  1 '52,  when you worked for  Game?  2 MR.   WILLMS:     Wolves?  3 MR.   GRANT:     I'm sorry.  4 MR. WILLMS:  You said goats.  5 MR. GRANT:  6 Q Bounty hunt for wolves, I'm sorry.  Thank you, Mr.  7 Willms.  8 A Yes.  9 Q Somebody was  saying you were taking your  clients in to  10 bounty hunt for wolves.  11 A They  took the bounty  off   in 1952.     They  hired predator  12 hunters from then on,   and did away with the bounty  13 system.  14 Q Were you a predator hunter then?  15 A For the government.  That was my job.  16 Q And a predator hunter means that you were paid by the  17 Game Branch to kill the predatory species, and this —  18 the focus was, I guess, the wolves?  19 A Yes.  20 Q Were you successful   at bounty  hunting?    In other  21 words,   did you  get  a lot?  22 A Yes,   I  got  a lot,   yes.  23 Q Now, one of the other strategies that came into play  24 and has reached notoriety in the eighties is use of  25 poison bait.  26 A Yes.  27 Q When did that start, as far as you were concerned?  28 A 1952.  29 Q Okay.  So just so that I understand you, from 1948 to  30 '51 you took — you hunted wolves as a bounty hunter?  31 A Right.  32 Q And then you  started to work full-time for   the Games  33 Branch?  34 A Yes.  35 Q As a  predator hunter?  36 A Yes.  37 Q And part of your work there would be setting poison  38 bait?  39 A Yes.  40 Q Is that right?  41 A Yes.  42 Q So you weren't involved with that before you started  43 work with the Game Branch?  44 A No.  45 Q Okay.  Do you remember baiting around the Beaumont  46 area for wolf kill?  47 A Beaumont? 46  A.E.   Fletcher   (for   Province)  Cross-exam  by  Mr.  Grant  1 Q Do you know where    Beaumont  is?  2 A On  the Bulkley  River  here?  3 Q On the Bulkley  River   it's up between Porphry  Creek and  4 Boulder  Creek.     You  know  Porphry Creek and Boulder  5 Creek?  6 A No,   I don't  remember  baiting in there.  7 Q You   don't?  8 A No.  9 Q When you had your sawmill operation in '48, did you  10 log — how did you log?  11 A Horse logging, driving a team of horses.  12 Q And that was selective logging?  13 A We just took everything that was good.  14 Q Okay.  When I say selective logging, today what's done  15 is, as you know, is a whole area is cut, good, bad or  16 indifferent.  17 A We just took the good trees in those days.  18 Q Okay.  Now, what species did you focus on?  19 A Pine and spruce.  20 Q Okay.  Now, did you — then you milled them right at  21 the small mill?  22 A Yes.  23 Q And  then you  sold them?  24 A Sold  the lumber,  yes.  25 Q To —  like  just to a  ranch around?  26 A Hansen Lumber   &  Timber   Company.  27 Q Out  of  Smithers?  28 A Out  of  Smithers.  2 9 Q I  take  it  that you weren't —  this was not  unique  at  30 that time?  31 A No.  32 Q In fact it was pretty common for small mill operations  33 all over the countryside?  34 A Yes.  35 Q And you knew these other —  36 A Sure.  37 Q —  mill  operations?    And there were Indian mill  38 operations at  that  time too?  39 A Yes.  40 Q That is one run by Indian people?  41 A Yes, I'm sure.  42 Q But the practise of logging that you used, that is  43 horse logging or even with early tractors?  44 A Yes.  45 Q Selective logging, that is not cutting everything,  46 that was the common practise?  47 A Yes. 47  A.E. Fletcher (for Province)  Cross-exam by Mr. Grant  1  Q  2  A  3  Q  4  5  A  6  Q  7  8  A  9  10  Q  11  A  12  Q  13  14  A  15  Q  16  A  17  Q  18  A  19  20  Q  21  A  22  Q  23  24  25  26  A  27  Q  28  A  29  Q  30  31  A  32  Q  33  34  35  36  A  37  Q  38  A  39  Q  40  41  42  A  43  Q  44  A  45  Q  46  47  You sold your trapline in '81?  To the best of my knowledge.  And you don't know anything that's occurred on that  trapline since '81?  I don't keep track.  You don't know if — I think you sold it to Tom  Britton, did you?  I sold it originally to a fellow by the name of  Darrell Elmore, and then he sold it to Tom Britton.  And Britton is B-R-I-T-T-O-N?  Yes.  And you don't know whether  they used it or  don't use  it?  No,   I  don't.  Okay.     How  did you  know Mr.   Elmore?  He worked for  me  in haying time.  And did he live in Driftwood area?  No,   he lived at — on the highway outside of  town here  a  couple of miles.  You are  indicating on Highway 16?  Highway 16  between here and Telkwa.  Okay.     When you were growing up,   Mr.   Fletcher,  was  there much  contact between  the pioneer families,   if I  may  take  the liberty of  calling like yours,   and the  Indian  people?  No,   I don't think so.  There wasn't?  I don't think so.  What  contact,   if  any,   did you have as you were growing  up with  the  Indian  people?  None  that  I  can  remember.  Okay.     From —  I  take it,   from the fact  that you are  not aware of what occurred and this correspondence  relating to  the  trapline,  you really didn't have  contact with them  as trappers?  No.  As fellow  trappers?  I  didn't  know who owned it  or  anything about  it.  Right.     And did you have contact — you didn't have  contact with Indian  people in school — in Driftwood?  You did in Burns Lake?  In Burns Lake,  yes.  But not in Driftwood?  No.  Aside from your contact with Indian people in school,  in Burns Lake, was that your only contact until after  you left school with Indian people? 48  A.E.   Fletcher   (for  Province)  Cross-exam by  Mr.   Grant  1  A  2  Q  3  4  5  6  7  8  A  9  Q  10  11  A  12  Q  13  14  A  15  16  17  18  Q  19  20  A  21  Q  22  23  A  24  25  Q  26  A  27  Q  28  29  30  A  31  32  Q  33  A  34  Q  35  A  36  Q  37  A  38  39  40  Q  41  42  43  44  45  46  A  47  Yes.  And then after you left school you were, from your own  description, very hard working and busy, you were  running the ranch, you were packing, you were  trapping — I'm sorry, you were not packing initially,  but you were trapping.  You didn't come into contact  with Indian people then?  NO.  Aside from, say, the exception of the Holland family  who lived nearby and worked on some of the ranches?  Yes.  Well, Joshua Holland was a friend of mine.  Uh-huh.  Okay.  Now, David Dennis, I think you said,  was a friend of yours.  How did you meet David?  Well, my dad knew him, and I got to know him through  my dad.  And he was a trapper.  So when we would meet  in town, we would talk about trapping.  And he trapped  on Dennis Lake.  It's named after him, I think.  Dennis Lake.  That is out on the way to McDonnell  Lake?  That's right.  And he trapped out there while you were — at the same  period of time while you were trapping where you were?  And Jack Joseph trapped at the same time at McDonell  Lake.  He was just  beyond David?  That's   right.  Okay.  And I take it those two men, David Dennis and  Jack Joseph, as far as you knew, they were active  trappers like you were?  Yes, they had a reputation of being fairly good  trappers.  They made a good living at it?  Yes, really good.  Did you ever see David Dennis's cabin?  No, I don't think —  Out towards McDonell Lake?  It may have been.  When I was packing out there I  probably saw it, but didn't know it was his or  somebody elses.  Right.  And I take it that's really, in that time when  you were packing, that's a fair way of describing it.  When you were packing your energy and your  conservation was on what you were doing, the fellows  you were with, and you could see cabins here or there,  and you wouldn't pay attention.  I didn't know if they were prospector cabins or  trapper cabins.  I really didn't care. 49  A.E. Fletcher (for Province)  Cross-exam by Mr. Grant  1  Q  2  3  A  4  Q  5  6  7  8  A  9  Q  10  A  11  Q  12  13  A  14  Q  15  16  A  17  Q  18  19  20  A  21  Q  22  23  A  24  Q  25  26  27  28  A  29  Q  30  31  32  A  33  Q  34  A  35  Q  36  37  A  38  39  40  41  Q  42  43  44  45  A  46  Q  47  A  And could have been Indian cabins, and you didn't  know?  No, I didn't know.  Now, aside, though, from Joshua and David Dennis, were  there any other Indian people that you knew or got to  know at all in this period between schooling and say  1948?  Not that well.  No?  No.  In other words, you were busy with your work and your  life and your family?  Yes.  And you left Indian people alone, and as far as you  were concerned they left you alone?  Joshua used to shoe horses for me.  But it wasn't a thing where you would have, for  example, like — it wasn't an association like you and  Marty Allen, for example?  No.  Where you would go and have supper with him or he with  you?  Right.  And I take it that was, as far as you could perceive  around you, that was typical of the relationship  between Indians and non-Indians in this period of  time?  That's right.  Do you recall seeing on this trail the left fork of  the trail going up on your trapline towards Two  Bridge?  Yes.  Do you recall seeing blazes on that trail?  Yes.  And do you remember seeing blazes that had Indian  names on it?  I don't remember seeing — I think there was one blaze  there.  I can't remember now.  I think its got an  Indian name on it.  I'm not positive.  It's on a  height of land.  I understood there was an Indian blaze with Indian  names where there was — appeared to be a discussion  going back and forth with the different parties  discussing, and this is on this trail —  Yes.  — in that area.  You remember that?  Yes, I think so. 50  A.E. Fletcher (for Province)  Cross-exam by Mr. Grant  1 Q  I am just not — remember the late Mr. Mesich? He was  2 killed.  Was he a peer of yours, or would he be of  3 your son's generation, Emil Mesich?  4 A  I think he was ten years younger than I am.  5 Q  But you knew him as you were growing up?  6 A  We hunted together.  7 Q  Okay.  And what about Hans Tugman?  8 A  He's a good friend of mine.  9 Q  And he would be a peer of yours? When I say a peer,  10 about the same age area.  11 A  About ten years younger.  12 Q  Okay.  And I think you have already agreed with me  13 that he grew up at Glen Tanna?  14 A  That's right.  15 Q  And at Glen Tanna there was a place — you know where  16 the — I think it's Snake Road.  Snake Road connects  17 to the high road at Glen Tanna?  18 A  That's right.  19 Q  And at that junction you are aware of the place that  20 was well-known as you were growing up as in the old  21 Indian camp, weren't you?  22 A  When I was growing up the Tugman family lived there.  23 Q  Right.  And then?  24 A  And then before them the Lapadat family.  Past that I  25 don't remember.  26 Q  L-a-p-a-d-a-t?  27 A  Yes.  28 Q  You may have misunderstood my question.  What I am  29 referring to is a place while the Tugman's were there  30 that were arrow — where arrowheads were located or  31 spearheads.  Do you remember that, that Hans Tugman  32 told you about that?  33 A  I don't remember him telling me about arrowheads.  He  34 might have, and I forgot.  35 Q  Okay.  And you don't remember it being known amongst  36 the younger people, the people of your generation as  37 you were growing up, that there was a place that had  38 been an Indian camp there? That is, it wasn't an  39 Indian camp while you were growing up, but it was  40 known as an old Indian campground?  41 A  Right where the farm was.  42 Q  Right across the high road from the farm.  Now, you  43 correct me if I'm wrong.  As I understand it, the  44 Tugmans and Mesichs live quite — very close?  45 A  Side by side.  46 Q  All right.  And if you go along Telkwa High Road  47 towards Moricetown, they would be on the left-hand 51  A.E. Fletcher (for Province)  Cross-exam by Mr. Grant  1 side?  2 A  Right.  3 Q  Is that right? Am I right?  4 A  Yes.  Well, they are — they are in the left-hand side  5 from Tugman's farm.  6 Q  Yes.  Okay.  And then on the right-hand side across  7 from Tugman's farm, that was part of their farm?  8 A  Yes.  9 Q  But there is a flat there?  10 A  Yes.  11 Q  And in that flat I am instructed that Hans found  12 arrowheads and spearheads, and I thought as a good  13 friend of yours you knew that?  14 A  Well, I don't ever remember him mentioning it to me,  15 but —  16 Q  I am also instructed that at the time you were growing  17 up, that that area was well-known as an old Indian  18 camp around there.  You don't remember that?  19 A  No, I don't remember that.  20 Q  Okay.  Does Driftwood Creek have any salmon in it?  21 A  No.  22 Q  Did it before?  23 A  Not to my knowledge it ever had salmon.  24 Q  You never saw it with salmon in it?  25 A  Never saw salmon.  26 Q  Did your dad ever mention that?  27 A  Never talked about salmon.  The odd stealhead in  28 there.  29 Q  It has or had?  30 A  It had some a few years ago, but I never heard of  31 anybody catching any since.  3 2 Q  Right.  Okay.  Down below the — below your farm,  33 Driftwood as I understand, it goes through where the  34 Harveys were in what is now Driftwood Park, and then  35 it comes down and it would veer off to the northwest?  36 A  Right.  37 Q  Then it goes down along and in towards Glen Tanna and  38 then down to the Bulkley?  39 A  Yes.  40 Q  Now, below your farm, like if you were between your  41 farm and the Bulkley River approximately, do you know  42 of a place where there is a canyon, a Driftwood  43 Canyon?  44 A  Yes.  45 Q  Which was a steep sided canyon?  46 A  Uh-huh.  47 Q  Now, do you know — do you recall that being known as 52  A.E. Fletcher (for Province)  Cross-exam by Mr. Grant  2  A  3  Q  4  A  5  Q  6  7  8  A  9  Q  10  11  A  12  Q  13  14  A  15  16  17  18  Q  19  A  20  Q  21  A  22  Q  23  A  24  Q  25  A  26  Q  27  A  28  Q  29  30  A  31  32  33  34  Q  35  36  37  A  38  39  Q  40  41  A  42  Q  43  44  45  A  46  47  a place where there were Indian caches?  No.  You know what I mean by caches?  Yes.  That there were sites that had been cache pits.  Would  you agree with me that the area around Driftwood is  known for bear habitat?  Yes.  And grizzly bears have actually been shot right in the  area close to where you live?  Yes.  When you were growing up, was there any place that you  or your family went for berries or other pioneers?  Yes, we went for huckleberries up on the mountain  about two miles, an old place called the Deer Meadows.  Some clearings up on the hills a couple of miles from  there we used to pick huckleberries.  And this would be a place above Glen Tanna?  Between Driftwood and Glen Tanna.  But it would be up higher?  Yes.  And how would you get there?  It was an old trail.  Okay.  And that trail comes from —  From Driftwood.  Okay.  And it cuts in up to these berry grounds?  Yes.  Was that an area, do you remember, did it look like an  area that had been burned?  Yes — I don't know.  Those meadows have been there  since I can remember.  I don't know if there was a  fire there.  I heard there could have been a fire  there in the early days, maybe, but I never saw it.  But I understand you didn't see a fire, but do you  remember as a younger boy that it looked like it had  been burned?  Yes, there is a lot of burnt windfalls around — there  could have been a fire there.  As a young boy and young man did you explore around  there?  No.  Do you remember that there were — there are trails  above the Deer Meadows going northeast — or northwest  and southeast?  It's possible.  I have seen trails on top of the  mountain, but, you know, I just assumed they are game  trails. 53  A.E.   Fletcher  Cross-exam by  (for  Province)  Mr.   Grant  1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  A  Q  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Right.  Looked like game trails.  But they could have been  You don't know?  It* s possible.  trails made by Indian people?  the location  was?  of where the old  that in relation to Driftwood and  dad was foreman there on the Hudson  that he got?  s Bay  Okay.  Do you know  Hudson's Bay Ranch  Yes.  That's — where is  Glen Tanna?  About halfway.  My  Bay Ranch in the early days.  Was this one of his first jobs  First job that he got.  And that's Hudson's Bay Ranch, the Hudson'  Company that we all know so dearly?  I don't think so.  It wasn't?  No.  It was owned by a guy by the name of Blackjack  McDonald.  And I don't think I had any connection with  Hudson's Bay Company.  I think it's called Hudson Bay  Ranch —  I thought it was the other way around, but that's  okay.  If you went to — this berry ground you were  talking about, it would be above the Hudson's Bay  Ranch?  Yes.  Now, if I could show you something for a moment.  I am  referring you to Exhibit 164 for the record.  Now,  this is a map that was tendered in evidence in the  case, and I'll just help you to give you some  locations. You can see at the bottom is Driftwood  Creek, and there is an Indian name there as well,  Ca'edii, C-a apostrophe e-d-i-i, one word, Kwe, K-w-e,  second word.  By the way, did you hear of that name?  No.  And then if you see the Telkwa High Road, you see a  dot for Glen Tanna.  And that would be — you would  agree that's about where — what's known as Glen  Tanna.  And it goes along the Telkwa High Road and  then you see Moricetown here?  Yes.  And the Bulkley River follows along?  Yes.  So you have a sense of where things are?  Yes. 54  A.E. Fletcher (for Province)  Cross-exam by Mr. Grant  1 Q  Now, what I would like to know is whether or not you  2 are aware of goats in this area on the lower left-hand  3 side of Exhibit 164.  Would you agree that that's an  4 area of goats?  5 MR. WILLMS:  You are pointing to the lower right-hand side.  6 MR. GRANT:  Thank you, Mr. Willms.  7 Q  The lower right-hand corner?  8 A  This is Driftwood Creek here?  9 Q  There is Driftwood Creek here.  10 A  Yes.  11 Q  Now, that looks like trails there?  12 A  Yes.  This is Lagopus Mountain.  I'll call it Hungry  13 Mountain if it's easier.  14 Q  Unfortunately you need it on the record once you say  15 the word, Mr. Fletcher.  L-A-G-O-P-U-S.  That's on all  16 the maps.  It's locally known as Hungry Mountain?  17 A  Yes.  18 Q  Is that an area where goats are?  19 A  Well, yes, there is lots of goats in behind this  20 mountain.  Not many goats on this Lagopus Mountain,  21 but in behind there is a valley comes down here, some  22 glaciers, lots of goats there.  And I got the world's  23 record goat up there, and there is lots of goats in  24 this area.  25 Q  You are referring where you got the world record goat  26 to — this is my copy, so —  27 A  That's the Lower Two Bridge Lake, and the upper Two  28 Bridge Lake would be about here.  29 Q  Okay.  The lake within the — there is a green line  30 with beaver labelled on it, and a lake circled which  31 the witness identifies as the — as Two Bridge Lake.  32 And the Upper Two Bridge Lake is at the end of the  33 creek, which is shown on the map, Exhibit 164, and the  34 witness was pointing, and that that's where he got the  35 record goat.  Now, you would agree with this map where  36 it shows in the area between Driftwood Creek and  37 Rieseter Creek of moose hunting, still good moose  38 hunting?  39 A  Yes.  40 Q  And then the area from Rieseter Creek up to Caus Qua,  41 C-a-u-s Q-u-a, as good moose hunting before logging.  42 You would agree with that?  43 A  Yes.  44 Q      Okay.     Now,   you wouldn't —  just   so that  I  am clear  45 here,  what you have  identified as Lower  Two Bridge  46 Lake,   the lake with  the  circle in green around it,   you  47 would not have trapped there.     That's over  the other 55  A.E. Fletcher (for Province)  Cross-exam by Mr. Grant  1  2  A  3  Q  4  5  A  6  Q  7  8  9  A  10  Q  11  12  A  13  Q  14  A  15    i  MR. GRANT  16  17  18  19  20  21  Q  22  23  24  25  26  27  A  28  Q  29  A  30  Q  31  A  32  Q  33  34  A  35  Q  36  37  A  38  Q  39  A  40  Q  41  A  42  43  Q  44  A  45  46  47  side of the height of land?  The boundary was up here.  Okay.  No, here, I guess.  Okay.  Did you trap — you  didn't trap in the Rieseter Creek watershed?  Never.  Okay.  And I believe you have now indicated that your  trapline did not go as far — it stopped at the upper  end of Ben Nelson's?  It started at Ben Nelson's.  It started there, so it didn't come down to the  Bulkley?  No.  So you never, of course, trapped in the Bulkley?  NO.  I think what we should do, I am going into a whole  new area, so maybe stop for lunch now.  (PROCEEDINGS ADJOURNED)  (PROCEEDINGS RECONVENED)  Mr. Fletcher, you have described that you — later in  your affidavit, paragraph 17, that you did low level  flights from 1952 to '66, and you described it in some  detail.  My question to you is:  Did you keep — did  you make records that you filed with the Game  Department of those flights?  No.  Sorry.  No?  No.  Okay.  And did you keep a diary, a personal diary?  Yes.  And that personal  diary   included  this period from  '52  to   '66?  Yes.  And that personal diary would record when you flew,  for example?  Yes.  And you still have it?  No, I don't.  What happened to it?  Well, that's 25 years ago.  I wasn't interested in  keeping it for any reason.  It's lost, destroyed, doesn't exist?  Well, I moved from the old ranch, and I kept them for  years around the old ranch, but I don't know where  they are now. Wasn't any point in keeping them  forever.  But there could be copies — there should be 56  A.E. Fletcher (for Province)  Cross-exam by Mr. Grant  1 old copies from the Fish & Wildlife branch office of  2 some of the maps I had where I put all the baits and  3 the flight patterns and things like that.  I don't  4 know if they still got those maps. 25 years ago now.  5 Q  So what I understand is you wouldn't keep a written  6 record of your flight, but you would, for example,  7 have a map of — you went on this flight and you would  8 draw your flight path?  9 A  Yes.  10 Q  And date the map, I presume, when you did it?  11 A  And mark down all the baits that were dropped on that  12 flight.  13 Q  I see.  Those you turned into the Game Department?  14 A  They were left in the office when I left there 25  15 years ago, so where they are now is beyond me.  16 Q  That's fair enough.  And other than those maps, were  17 there any other records of the flights that were kept?  18 A  Not that I know of.  19 Q  Okay.  And most of these flights were with Mr.  20 Harrison, I gather?  21 A  Harrison and Doug Chapel from Terrace.  22 MR. GRANT:  Do you have those maps that he has referred to from  23 the Fish & Wildlife Department?  24 MR. WILLMS:  No.  25 MR. GRANT:  I am saying —  26 MR. WILLMS:  No, right now I have absolutely no knowledge of the  27 maps.  28 MR. GRANT:  You didn't hear of them until now, I gather?  29 MR. WILLMS:  No.  30 MR. GRANT:  Well, I am going to have to ask you for the  31 production of those, and —  3 2 MR. WILLMS:  Why?  33 MR. GRANT:  It certainly goes to —  34 MR. WILLMS:  You haven't asked him anything about that.  You  35 haven't asked him how many times he flew or anything  36 like that.  I mean, why -- the —  37 MR. GRANT:  The issue of his flights has become relevant by this  38 affidavit.  The records of his flights — whatever  39 records there are of his flights are relevant.  As  40 just with Dr. Steciw, the flight books that he had  41 were relevant.  You have made them relevant by this.  42 MR. WILLMS:  The witness hasn't referred to them.  He hasn't  43 seen them for 25 years.  They didn't come into the  44 making of the affidavit.  45 MR. GRANT:  It does not matter whether the witness has seen it.  46 I want to see them for cross, and I don't have to ask  47 him all the questions before I have a right to see all 57  A.E. Fletcher (for Province)  Cross-exam by Mr. Grant  1 the documents.  You have made them relevant for this,  2 and I request the production of them.  3 MR. WILLMS: Well, I disagree that I have made them relevant.  4 But you have stated your position on the record, and  5 we can deal with it at the appropriate time.  6 MR. GRANT:  Well, I am not going to be able to complete my  7 cross-examination until that happens.  8 MR. WILLMS:  You can state your position on the record, and my  9 position is that you don't need them.  We can deal  10 with it at the appropriate time.  11 MR. GRANT:  When is the appropriate time, Mr. Willms?  12 MR. WILLMS:  When we get the matter of production of the  13 documents before the Chief Justice.  14 MR. GRANT:  Okay.  Well, I want to set out for the record that I  15 understand that these maps are in existence.  I  16 understand —  17 MR. WILLMS:  Where do you get that understanding? The witness  18 didn't say that.  19 MR. GRANT:  I know.  I have been instructed that these maps do  20 exist.  I have been instructed that these maps exist  21 within the Fish & Game Branch.  I am not certain  22 whether they are in the Smithers1 office or not, but  23 if you make some enquiries, at least you may be able  24 to determine that and provide me with that answer  25 after lunch.  I ask you to make whatever enquiries you  26 can to determine if these maps are in existence.  27 There is no point in us bringing on an application  28 before the judge if the maps are not in existence.  If  29 they are in existence, there is no prejudice to you to  30 produce them.  I understand you may not be able to  31 produce them today, you may or you may not.  32 We are here in Smithers.  I would like to complete  33 Mr. Fletcher's cross-examination.  I now know that  34 these maps — that such maps were prepared by Mr.  3 5 Fletcher, and you know that too.  I would ask you to  36 make enquiries while you are here.  And I will adjourn  37 'til 1:00 o'clock — 'til 2:00 o'clock to give you  38 time to do it.  And I am prepared, depending on that,  3 9 to do everything I can to complete today, subject to  40 how Mr. Fletcher feels.  I am prepared to sit late,  41 if —  42 MR. WILLMS:  What is your time estimate to complete?  43 MR. GRANT:  Well, I want to know your answer on these maps  44 first.  45 MR. WILLMS: Well, I have given you the answer on the maps.  46 MR. GRANT:  I have to see the maps.  47 MR. WILLMS:  I have given you the answer on the maps. 58  A.E. Fletcher (for Province)  Cross-exam by Mr. Grant  1  MR.  2  3  MR.  4  5  MR.  6  7  MR.  8  9  MR.  10  11  MR.  12  MR.  13  14  THE  15  MR.  16  17  18  MR.  19  20  MR.  21  22  MR.  23  24  25  26  27  MR.  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  MR.  47  GRANT:  No, you haven't.  Are you not going to make any  enquiries?  WILLMS:  I am not going to make enquiries over the lunch  time, no, I am not.  GRANT:  So then we will not be able to complete Mr. Fletcher  today.  WILLMS:  How long will it take you to carry on 'til as far  as you can go?  GRANT:  How do I know the answer to that until I see the  maps? Don't be silly.  WILLMS:  I am asking you today, based on —  GRANT:  Show me the maps and I will tell you.  We are  adjourning 'til 2:00 o'clock.  WITNESS:  I don't think those maps are still in existence.  GRANT:  Well, unless somebody in the Game Department or the  Fish & Wildlife has been very active in the last  couple of years, the maps are in existence.  WILLMS:  You don't need to stand and shout at me.  That's  most inappropriate.  GRANT:  You don't have to repeat yourself.  Sometimes you  need shouting at because you need it.  WILLMS:  Most unappropriate Mr. Grant.  (PROCEEDINGS ADJOURNED FOR THE LUNCH RECESS)  (PROCEEDINGS RECOMMENCED)  GRANT:  Just before we start, Mr. Fletcher.  Just for the  record, Mr. Willms has made enquiries and has been  unable to locate the 1935/1936 return to which  reference is made in Exhibit 7.  He has pointed out  and Mr. Frey has pointed out that that series of  documents came from PABC, Public Archives of British  Columbia, and Mr. Frey, although it is a federally  listed document, Mr. Frey cannot determine, or is not  certain whether or not every document was copied.  So  there is a possibility that that return is there.  Of  course the plaintiff's counsel can make that enquiry.  And I understand that from this position, Mr. Willms'  position, is that that return for 1935/'36 is not  located in the Smithers' office.  I do not know     '  whether it is located — it is not located in the  exhibit for identification of 20 volumes put forward  in Mr. Brody's evidence, and I do not know whether  it's with the boxes, which are all listed as one  number 1276.  WILLMS:  I should say I haven't said that it's not in the  Smithers' office.  I have said that it may be, but 59  A.E. Fletcher (for Province)  Cross-exam by Mr. Grant  1 everything has been disclosed.  I can't say, I haven't  2 looked at every document.  It may be in the disclosure  3 that you haven't reviewed.  But everything in the  4 Smithers' office has been disclosed relating to  5 traplines in the land claim area.  6 MR. GRANT:  I guess what I have to formerly request now is that  7 I would like that file out — that file or files out  8 of 1276 which relate to this trapline produced.  9 MR. WILLMS:  They have been produced.  The whole file has been  10 produced.  It's available to you.  You want it copied,  11 you just —  12 MR. GRANT:  I want it produced for examination to determine if  13 that document is in it.  14 MR. WILLMS:  You can come over any time and look at the whole  15 file.  Its been disclosed —  16 MR. GRANT:  No.  Mr. Willms, the file — the number is a filing  17 cabinet or several file boxes of documents.  I am  18 asking for only — the only one that I wish produced  19 is the one relating to the Peter Bazil, Allen Fletcher  20 trapline.  21 MR. WILLMS:  Mr. Grant, they have all been produced.  If you  22 want a copy of a particular document and can refer to  23 the number, we would be pleased to do it.  If you want  24 to come over and look for it —  25 MR. GRANT:  I want document number 1276, those documents in  26 document number 1276 which relate to the Fletcher and  27 Bazil trapline file.  28 MR. WILLMS:  Well, you can come and look for them any time you  29 want.  They have all been disclosed.  30 MR. GRANT:  No.  There's one document number.  I am not going  31 to — the Chief Justice has indicated that you are  32 required to give better listing than that.  Now, I do  33 believe you have actually indexed them subsequent to  34 his order.  In any event, we don't need to waste more  3 5 time today on that.  36 With respect to the maps, I understand that over  37 the lunch hour Mr. Willms made some enquiries of the  38 local office of the Fish & Wildlife branch and was  39 unable to determine whether the — whether they are in  40 existence, or whether they are here.  Now, I have been  41 instructed by the former Fish & Wildlife biologist  42 that he saw and reviewed those maps recently, and I am  43 maintaining my request for production of those maps.  44 But what I would like to do is endeavour to proceed  45 with the cross-examination, so we can get as far as we  46 can, even without them being produced.  47 Q  Now, Mr. Fletcher, I just want to understand the area 60  A.E. Fletcher (for Province)  Cross-exam by Mr. Grant  1 with which you're familiar, and which you spent most  2 of your lifetime.  I understand from your description  3 that you — the most travelled portion of the area  4 that you have covered would be these three areas, and  5 you correct me if I'm wrong, the Silver King Basin,  6 Mount Cronin area, the Driftwood Creek area, which  7 is — joins that, and the McDonell Lake area.  You did  8 a fair amount of packing in there?  9 A  Yes.  10 Q  And those are the three areas that you really have  11 spent most of your time in?  12 A  Yes, I have the best knowledge of that area.  13 Q  Okay.  Now, just to be clear about that.  Of those  14 areas I have just described, the — the area you have  15 the best knowledge of would be Silver King, Mount  16 Cronin and the Driftwood Creek?  17 A  That's right.  18 Q  Okay.  Now, in your affidavit you say that from 1952  19 'til 1956 you were the Fish & Wildlife predator  20 control officer, and then you say in your first year  21 there was no salary.  Then you say in 1952 I went onto  22 full salary status.  That would be 1953?  23 A  No, I'm sorry, 1951 I was just on no salary, but I was  24 allowed to collect the bounty.  25 Q  Was that — did you only collect a bounty for one  26 year?  27 A  Yes, that's right.  28 Q  So from 1948 ~  29 A  Well, I mean, after I was in contact with the Fish &  30 Wildlife.  Before that there was a bounty system, and  31 I collected the bounty up 'til then, but then they  32 were interested in hiring me, so they said they would  33 pay me $17 5 a month or they would give me the bounty.  34 And so I thought to prove that I wasn't lazy I would  3 5 take the bounty.  36 Q  Was that a good decision? Did you do better with the  37 bounty?  38 A  No, not really.  But I thought if I accepted the  39 salary, they would figure I was looking for a job, and  40 if I took the bounty, I had to prove that I knew what  41 I was doing.  42 Q  Okay.  Now, in that first year where did you bounty  43 hunt for wolves? What area?  44 A  In the Bulkley Valley, like from Houston to down  45 around the Glen Tanna area was a lot of wolves that  46 winter, and I think I got 14 — 20 some coyotes and  47 seven or eight wolves, and bounty on coyote was $4 and 61  A.E.   Fletcher   (for  Province)  Cross-exam by  Mr.   Grant  1  2  Q  3  A  4  Q  5  6  7  8  A  9  Q  10  A  11  12  Q  13  14  A  15  16  17  Q  18  19  A  20  Q  21  22  A  23  Q  24  A  25  Q  26  27  A  28  Q  29  30  31  A  32  33  Q  34  A  35  Q  36  37  38  39  A  40  41  Q  42  A  43  44  Q  45  A  46  47  Q  wolves was   $25.  Was  that  the  same as  it had been before   '51?  Yes, just the same.  Maybe you could just explain for me.  What's — why  was this initiative — what was the point of this,  aside from killing wolves and coyotes? Why were they  focused on in this area, Glen Tanna to Houston?  Well, for myself you mean?  Yes.  Let's start with yourself.  Well, I had to buy my own casting, and I couldn't  cover too big an area.  No.  What I mean is why was there predator control?  What was the problem that was perceived?  Well, mostly complaints from ranchers losing  livestock, and also from people in the guiding  business, and too many wolves in their guiding areas.  What's the problem when there is too many wolves in  the guiding areas?  Kill too many big game.  I see.  You mentioned earlier that Lefty Gardiner also  was a guide?  Yes.  And  a good  friend  of yours,   I believe?  Yes.  Lefty had a guide outfitting area in the McDonell Lake  area?  That's right.  Do you remember in later years that he had — the  access to that, he had it blocked off so not anyone  could get through that?  I was never up there, but I heard that he had a gate  across the road or something.  You were never up there?  No.  When would Lefty have had that guiding area in  relation — just to assist you, in relation to your  guide outfitting in '49, '51, did he have that one at  McDonell at the same time?  He started later, but then he went ten years later  after I quit too.  So he started after you quit?  Yes.  He started — no, I guess he started about the  same time I did.  Okay.  I think.  But then after I joined the Game Department  I quit, and he kept going.  Okay.  So he went for about ten years? 62  A.E. Fletcher (for Province)  Cross-exam by Mr. Grant  1  A  2  Q  3  4  A  5  Q  6  7  A  8  Q  9  10  11  A  12  Q  13  A  14  Q  15  A  16  Q  17  A  18  Q  19  A  20  Q  21  A  22  Q  23  A  24  Q  25  26  27  28  A  29  ■Q  30  31  A  32  Q  33  34  35  36  37  A  38  Q  39  40  A  41  Q  42  43  A  44  Q  45  A  46  Q  47  More than that, I think.  Maybe more than that.  And he only had this one — his guiding area was  McDonell Lake?  McDonell Lake and Serb Creek and Copper River.  Copper River being the area past McDonell Lake and  towards Kitsegukla Lake?  Yes.  Now, in the 1951 year you did — you did some guiding,  I guess, that first year when you were first taking  bounty?  Yes.  That was your last year of guiding?  Yes.  And you did this bounty hunting?  Yes.  Was that mainly in the winter?  Just the winter-time.  And then you did — then in 1952 you got on full time?  Yes.  What time of year was that?  October, I think.  Of '52?  October of '52 I think I started.  Okay.  Now — and when you started on salary in '52,  you focused on predator control initially, that is  that time of year, and what times of year would you be  doing predator control?  All year round, yes.  Bears in the summertime mostly.  I see.  So predator control, we are not focusing on  just wolves and coyote, we include bear?  Yes.  Okay.  Now, according to your affidavit it says that  you — or some of this period of time you were working  you spent half your time conducting road checks,  checking loaded weapons, checking — enforcement of  the regulation?  Mostly in hunting season.  That's what I was going to ask you.  That's when you  would have done that?  Yes.  And where did you do that enforcement work? Around  this area, the Bulkley?  Between Morice — between Moricetown and Burns Lake.  Okay.  And did you use your own vehicle for that?  No, government vehicle.  Government vehicle.  Okay.  And you are aware that  Indian people didn't need hunting licences and don't 63  A.E. Fletcher (for Province)  Cross-exam by Mr. Grant  1  2  3  A  4  Q  5  6  7  A  8  9  10  Q  11  12  A  13  Q  14  A  15  Q  16  17  18  A  19  Q  20  21  22  A  23  Q  24  A  25  26  27  Q  28  A  29  Q  30  A  31  Q  32  33  A  34  35  36  Q  37  38  A  39  Q  40  41  42  A  43  Q  44  A  45  Q  46  A  47  Q  need hunting licences, so you didn't check for  licences?  No.  And did you — while you were doing the law  enforcement, were you also involved in predator  control, like at the same time?  Yes, if I got a predator control call, I answered  that, and when I had spare time I worked on the road  section.  Okay.  That's — so your predator control was based on  complaints coming in?  Yes.  A ranch would phone,   say wolves here  or whatever?  Yes.  Now, when you went onto full salary status, is that  when the poison method came into force instead of  shooting?  Yes.  I understand, from what you're saying then, when you  started working full time that that cut back in your  trapping activity?  Yes.  You didn't do trapping then?  No, I had to get rid of the trapline after that.  I  didn't have to, but I didn't have time to look after  it, so I just sold it.  You  sold  it to Tom Britton  in the eighties?  No,   I  sold  it  to Darrell  Elmore.  To Darrell  Elmore?  Yes.  And that was around — was that after you quit  working?  Yes, I think so.  My wife was in the wheelchair for  ten years, so then I had to quit trapping after she  had a stroke.  But while — you say that you sold the trapline in the  late seventies due to your wife's ill health?  Yes.  But from 1952 to 1966, while you were working with the  Fish & Wildlife, you didn't have a lot of time to  trap, I gather, because you were working full time?  Yes.  It was a full time job?  Yes.  All year round?  Yes.  Now, most of your enforcement work would have been by 64  A.E. Fletcher (for Province)  Cross-exam by Mr. Grant  1 road.  That would have been you would have driven on  2 the road?  3 A  Yes.  4 Q  Okay.  You got to know Les Cox fairly well, I gather?  5 A  I worked with him for 15 years.  6 Q  So that's a good way to know him then?  7 A  Yes, I guess so.  8 Q  Did you get along together?  9 A  Yes, we got along pretty good.  10 Q  Now, were you involved at all with the transfers of  11 traplines while you were involved?  12 A  Les Cox — my main job was predator control, and when  13 I had spare time and I worked in the fall, Les Cox  14 looked after all the Indian traplines and any  15 transfers, anything to do with Indian traplines or  16 like beaver permits and beaver tack and all that  17 stuff, Les looked after 95 percent of that.  18 Q  Was there only the two of you working at that time?  19 A  Just the two of us.  20 Q  And — okay.  You are aware of the policy that was in  21 place at that time, at least by Les Cox, that Indian  22 traplines weren't transferred to non-Indians?  23 A  That's what I understood, yes.  24 Q  Now, you describe in your affidavit that part of your  25 job was flying?  26 A  Yes.  27 Q  And I alluded to that this morning?  28 A  Yes.  29 Q  Now, what was the first year that you flew anywhere  30 for Fish & Wildlife?  31 A  I think 1954, before we got any money to fly with.  32 Q  Right.  33 A  We started getting $2,000 in the winter.  In 1954 and  34 every winter after that we had money or a little more  3 5 money every year.  36 Q  So from 19 — your affidavit says from 1952 to '66 you  37 flew at low altitudes, but it's wrong, it should be  38 1954 to —  39 A  I think 1954 before we got money to fly.  40 Q  And you didn't fly before that, I mean for predator  41 control?  42 A  No, until we got the money.  43 Q  That's right.  So when it says from 1952 to '66 in  44 paragraph 17, that should be 1954?  45 A  Yes.  46 MR. WILLMS:  Well, it says game surveys.  47 MR. GRANT: 65  A.E. Fletcher (for Province)  Cross-exam by Mr. Grant  1  Q  2  3  4  A  5  6  7  8  9  Q  10  11  A  12  13  Q  14  A  15  Q  16  17  18  19  A  20  Q  21  22  23  A  24  Q  25  A  26  Q  27  A  28  Q  29  A  30  Q  31  A  32  Q  33  34  A  35  36  Q  37  A  38  Q  39  A  40  41  42  Q  43  44  45  46  A  47  I'm sorry.  Okay.  Let me — did you do flying for any  purposes as an employee of the Fish & Wildlife branch  in 1952, '53?  I am pretty sure we remember we got a little bit of  money for game surveys with the Super Cup playing to  do some moose counts, but just a little bit, because  we didn't have much money.  But I think first winter  we did some moose counts.  What I want to know is when did you first fly for the  Game Branch.  As far as I can remember, '52.  I could be mistaken by  a year.  Okay.  It may have been '52 or '53?  Yes.  Now, at the time you swore your affidavit, or at the  time that you reviewed this, did you — was there any  document or anything else that you had to refresh your  memory as to when you started these flights?  No, just by memory.  Okay.  Now, in the first — tell me where you remember  flying from in the first flight.  I think you said it  was at the Super Cup.  Where would you fly out of?  Fly out of Smithers here.  Okay.  With Harrison?  Billy Harrison, yes.  And he was based in Burns Lake?  Yes.  Was he a Game Officer?  He was a private plane operator.  What we know as a bush pilot?  Bush pilot, yes.  And — so he would fly over here and get you in  Smithers and then you would fly?  We did all the caribou surveys in the Telkwa mountains  for years, him and I.  Okay.  Now, that was by flying?  Yes, Super Cup.  When did you start that, the caribou?  I can't remember exactly when we started the caribou  counts, but I — it was just a few year years after I  went to work with the Game Department.  Okay.  The first year that you flew, which you say may  have been '52 or '53, tell me where you flew? Tell me  what you remember about the first flight that you flew  on.  Jesus, the first flight 50 years ago is a little hard  to pinpoint, the first flight. 66  A.E. Fletcher (for Province)  Cross-exam by Mr. Grant  1  Q  2  A  3  4  Q  5  A  6  Q  7  A  8  Q  9  10  A  11  Q  12  13  14  15  A  16  Q  17  18  A  19  20  Q  21  22  23  A  24  25  26  Q  27  28  A  29  Q  30  31  32  A  33  Q  34  A  35  Q  36  37  A  38  Q  39  A  40  Q  41  42  A  43  Q  44  45  A  46  Q  47  A  It's not quite 50, but it is 35 or 37.  From '52 to '89 is — I think the best I can remember  the first flight we did a moose count.  Now, where —  In the Bulkley Valley, from Houston to Moricetown.  What time of year?  January.  Okay.  Now, you're familiar with the types of flying  where you have visual flight?  Yes.  And I take — would you agree with me that a common  method of flying in this part of the country is by  following, for example, rivers, or today highways  even?  Yes.  Is that right? You would agree with that, that's a  common method?  But in clear weather those bush pilots would fly any  place.  Yes.  I agree with that.  But what — what — I just  want to lay some groundwork here.  Is that how you  flew?  We flew the river bottoms looking for moose, because  that's where the moose are in the winter-time is down  on bottom of the valleys.  So you would fly along the Bulkley then, you were  saying from Houston — did you say from Houston?  Say Moricetown.  Okay.  Now, I would — would it be correct to say  that — had you done any such animal counts before you  started this flight?  No.  Okay.  Was there just the two of you, you and Billy?  Yes.  And of  course you weren't  flying,   it wasn't a  co-piloted  plane?  No.  You don't have a pilot's licence?  No.  So your concentration was to count the moose that you  saw?  Yes.  Now, do you recall what — whether you were successful  on that first trip?  Yes.  Where did you see moose?  All along the river there was hundreds of moose in 67  A.E. Fletcher (for Province)  Cross-exam by Mr. Grant  1 those days compared to now.  2 Q  Okay.  They were all along the river?  3 A  Along the river bottoms and along the side hills above  4 the rivers.  5 Q  And then did you record — did you record where you  6 saw them, or did you just record the total?  7 A  Well, no, we recorded — I had a game counter and  8 counted the total amount of moose we would see in a  9 day, and then made notes as we went along if we saw a  10 big concentration in Houston, say we saw 20 moose in  11 Houston flats or 50 moose at Round Lake.  Give an idea  12 where the moose concentrations were.  13 Q  But if you saw one or two, you might just add it on  14 the counter?  15 A  Just add it on the counter.  16 Q  And did you — these notes you kept, is that what you  17 would turn in with your maps?  18 A  No.  I kept that in my diary, I think.  19 Q  I see.  In your own diary?  20 A  I had a daily diary.  I had to write a diary every  21 day, what I did and what I saw.  22 Q  And just so that I am clear, this diary you kept, was  23 this a personal diary that you kept for yourself, or  24 was it a government diary, that is that they requested  25 you to do this?  26 A  I kept one copy and sent one copy to Victoria.  27 Q  Okay.  And who did you send it to in Victoria?  28 A  It went to Les Cox's office, and he did all the office  29 work, and I guess —  30 Q  So you didn't send it to Victoria?  31 A  I would give it to Les, and he did all the office  32 work.  I didn't even know how to type, and he did,  33 so —  3 4 Q  Okay.  Did he ever accompany you on the game surveys?  35 A  Only once or twice.  36 Q  Okay.  Now — so would you be concentrating on  37 looking — I just want to understand how you did this  38 survey in those days.  Would you be concentrating on  39 looking at the open areas?  40 A  Yes.  41 Q  Okay.  And then that's, of course, where you would see  42 the moose?  43 A  And the heavy timber, you couldn't see anything  44 anyway.  45 Q  So you would never try anyway?  46 A  No.  47 Q  Okay.  And that's — that was consistent all the way? 68  A.E. Fletcher  Cross-exam by  (for Province)  Mr. Grant  1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  A  Q  A  Q  Yes.  That  No.  Okay,  practise didn't change?  MR. WILLMS:  These are moose surveys.  MR. GRANT:  Talking about game surveys.  MR. WILLMS:  Well, caribou aren't on the river bottom.  He  already said that already.  MR. GRANT:  I will clarify it.  MR. WILLMS:  I would just like it clear.  He is not talking  about game surveys, talking about moose surveys.  MR. GRANT:  Please don't coach your witness.  I will just raise  your concern, and I will deal with it.  MR. WILLMS:  Okay.  MR. GRANT:  Q  When you searched for moose or did moose surveys, you  would go along the river bottoms, and you would look  in the open areas; is that right?  A  Yes.  Q  Okay.  I'm sorry, you have to say "yes" or "no" for  the reporter.  A  Yes.  Q  When you looked for caribou, of course you wouldn't be  on the river bottoms, right?  A  Above timber-line.  Q  Would be above timber-line.  looking in the open spaces?  A  Yes.  Q  Which was a lot easier, because that's about all it  was, right?  A  Yes.  Q  When you were dealing with predator control, once  again you would look for a sign of predators in the  open spaces when you were flying?  A  Mostly along the rivers and lakes.  Q  Okay.  And you wouldn't be looking, of course, trying  to see anything in the dense — in the — I shouldn't  say the dense, in the forest treaded area, because  from up there it was all dense, right?  A  Yes.  Q  How many times did you fly over Kuldo?  A  Kuldo.  I got to think for a minute exactly where  Kuldo is now.  Q  Do you remember where Kuldo is? Don't put anything to  him, please.  I just want to — I would like you to  tell me if you remember.  If you don't remember,  that's okay.  But  again you would be 69  A.E. Fletcher (for Province)  Cross-exam by Mr. Grant  1  A  2  3  4  Q  5  6  A  7  Q  8  A  9  Q  10  A  11  Q  12  A  13  0  14  A  15  16  17  Q  18  19  A  20  21  Q  22  A  23  Q  24  25  A  26  Q  27  28  A  29  Q  30  31  A  32  Q  33  34  A  35  36  Q  37  A  38  39  Q  40  A  41  42  Q  43  44  A  45  Q  46  A  47  Q  I don't remember exactly where Kuldo Lake is.  I know  the name, and if I see it on a map I will recognize  it.  Okay.  Fine.  I will come back to it.  Do you recall  where Slamgeesh is?  It's up on the Skeena River.  How many times have you flown over Slamgeesh?  Maybe only once or twice.  In that time?  Yes.  Okay.  Gunanoot Lake?  Just flown over it on the way north to Telegraph.  Was that just one time then?  No, several times on my. way to Telegraph Creek we  would go through that way, and other times we would go  by way of Babine Lake and up to Bear Lake.  You would go up to Telegraph for other purposes,  like —  We were just taking poisoned wolves all the way  here —  For predator control then?  Yes.  I take it you didn't stop at Slamgeesh in your  predator control or at Gunanoot?  No.  Stopped at Bear Lake once.  Okay.  Do you remember what year it was you stopped at  Bear Lake?  It's pretty hard to remember exactly.  How many years after you had started or before you  quit?  Probably about 1960 I stopped there once.  Damdochax, how many times did you fly over Damdochax?  Do you recall where that is?  That's called Black Lake, isn't it, or nickname is  Black Lake?  Well, it depends — it may be.  I am not sure.  Damdochax is up on the Skeena  someplace, isn't it?  Uh-huh.  Not very often.  It was sort of off our flight  pattern.  Do you remember any occasion on which you remember  what it looked like, Damdochax as you flew over there?  No.  So you can't recall what you saw or did not see there?  No.  Okay.  Swan Lake.  Do you know Swan Lake? 70  A.E. Fletcher (for Province)  Cross-exam by Mr. Grant  1 A Yes, head of the Kispiox.  2 Q And have you — how many times have you flown over  3 Swan Lake?  4 A Probably four, five times.  5 Q Did you ever stop there for predator control?  6 A No.  We did moose surveys up there.  7 Q That's where you did the moose surveys?  8 A Yes.  9 Q Do you remember what you saw in the way of moose, if  10 anything, up there?  11 A From Kispiox Village to Swan Lake we used to count  12 lots of time 75, 100 moose in that area in one time.  13 In the sixties —  14 Q Do you remember seeing anything on Swan Lake —  15 A No.  16 Q — in the way of moose?  17 A No.  18 Q I shouldn't — my question wasn't very well worded.  19 Did you see anything on Swan Lake?  20 A Not that I remember.  21 Q You just can't remember?  22 A No.  23 Q Okay.     Stephens Lake?  24 A Yes.  25 Q You know Stephens Lake?  26 A Yes.  27 Q How many times have you flown over Stephens Lake?  28 A Every time we would go to Swan Lake we would go to  29 Stephens Lake too.  30 Q Do you remember anything of what you saw at Stephens  31 Lake?  32 A Not on the lake itself, but just moose around the  33 lake.  3 4 Q Okay.  At the time you were flying over Stephens and  35 Swan Lake, the area surrounding them would have been  36 timbered; is that right?  37 A Before logging, yes.  38 Q It was before the logging up there.  It wouldn't  39 surprise you if Indian people were trapping there  40 while you were flying in that area?  41 A Oh, no, no doubt.  42 Q You don't doubt that they were?  43 A Oh, sure.  44 Q Okay.  Kuldo — did I ask you about Kuldo?  45 MR. WILLMS:  Yes.  46 MR. GRANT:  47 Q That's the one where you just can't remember — we'll 71  A.E. Fletcher (for Province)  Cross-exam by Mr. Grant  1  2  3  A  4  Q  5  6  A  7  Q  8  9  A  10  Q  11  12  13  A  14  Q  15  16  A  17  Q  18  19  A  20  21  Q  22  A  23  Q  24  25  26  A  27  Q  28  A  29  Q  30  A  31  Q  32  A  33  34  3 5  36  37  Q  38  39  A  40  Q  41  A  42  Q  43  A  44  Q  45  46  47  A  come back to Kuldo.  Kitsegukla Lake. You flew over  that, I take it, more often, as it was closer?  Yes.  Used to be a lot of wolves up there at one time.  Would you fly to Kitsegukla Lake primarily for wolf  control?  Mostly for wolf control, yes.  Okay.  And again that was an area that was timbered  all around the lake?  Yes.  Now, what I would like to know, did you — okay.  Let's — you went up to Kitsegukla Lake specifically  for predator control?  Yes.  Do you recall what year you first went to Kitsegukla  Lake?  I can't remember.  Okay.  How often would you have gone there in a given  year, an average year?  I don't think I was up there more than two or three  times in 15 years.  Okay.  Mostly on complaints.  Okay.  And so you would then — now, when you got a  complaint, you would go up there and you would land on  the lake?  No.  Okay.  What did you do?  Dropped ten pound chunks of horse meat.  With — I think it's 1080, was it? That's the poison?  Yes.  What you would do is drop it from the plane?  On the lake, especially if you find a kill, if there  is a moose kill on the lake, you drop it beside the  kill.  When the ice went out in the spring, it went  into the water and — by the time it dissolved in the  water, there was no bad effects from it.  I see.  So was that the way you — in terms of when we  talk about flying —  Yes.  — for predator control, that was your method?  Yes.  And that didn't change in the 15 years?  No.  Okay.  Or I should say — well, the 14 or 15 years,  how often did you go up to Meziadin Lake on either  game surveys or predator control?  I have only flown over it about twice on predator 72  A.E.   Fletcher   (for  Province)  Cross-exam by  Mr.   Grant  1  2  Q  3  A  4  5  Q  6  A  7  Q  8  9  A  10  Q  11  A  12  13  14  Q  15  A  16  17  Q  18  19  A  20  21  Q  22  A  23  24  Q  25  A  26  Q  27  A  28  Q  29  A  30  Q  31  32  A  33  Q  34  35  36  A  37  Q  38  39  A  40  Q  41  42  A  43  Q  44  A  45  Q  46  A  47  Q  control.  Did you drop any material there?  Yes.  There was a pack of wolves trying to kill a  moose there.  Do you remember what year that was, or about?  In the sixties, late sixties, I think.  When you say in the late sixties, you mean shortly  before you quit in '66?  Yes.  Tyee Lake, how often would you fly over Tyee?  It's right out of town here, so every time you took  off you flew over it, but there — never did any  control around there, because too settled an area.  Okay.  Did you do any game surveys there?  Well, if you are up on the game count, every time you  flew anywhere you would count the game.  Okay.  Goosley Lake, how often did you fly down to  Goosley?  Probably once a winter, probably every winter on moose  surveys.  Predator control too?  Some predator control there.  Mostly moose surveys in  that area.  Did you ever land at Goosley Lake?  No.  Did you ever go into Goosley by land?  No.  By ground I should say.  No.  You never saw the cabins that are at the mouth of —  at the outlet of Goosley Lake?  No.  Once again,   as with  other  areas at the  time you were  flying  over  there,   it was heavily timbered  all   around  Goosley  Lake?  Yes.  And if — there could well be trapping going on you  wouldn't see?  Can't see nothing.  Four or five feet of snow.  All right.  Francois Lake.  How often did you fly over  Francois?  Every winter.  How often each winter?  Maybe a couple  of  times a winter.  Predator  control  or games count?  Mostly game counts.  Okay.     And Ootsa Lake,   that's  in the  same  area.     Did 73  A.E. Fletcher (for Province)  Cross-exam by Mr. Grant  1 you do that at the same time?  2 A  Same time.  We did all of Tweedsmuir Park every time  3 we did a survey.  4 Q  Not every time you did any survey, but every time you  5 went down that way you did the whole of Tweedsmuir?  6 A  When we did game surveys in January, we would do the  7 whole of Tweedsmuir Park.  8 Q  You did it each January?  9 A  Yes.  10 Q  And so when you say you did Tweedsmuir Park, you would  11 include Ootsa Lake?  12 A  Whitesail Lake and all the other lakes.  13 Q  Tatsa Lake?  14 A  Yes.  15 Q  Burnie Lake?  16 A  All of those.  17 Q       Okay.     And on those  same trips would you do Nanika,  18 Morice and Nadina?  19 A      Yes.  20 Q  So those lakes, Tatsa, Whitesail, Burnie, Nanika,  21 Morice, Nadina, Ootsa and Francois Lake, you would do  22 those ones each January when you did the Tweedsmuir  23 Park survey?  24 A  Yes.  25 Q       Okay.     And I  take   it  some years the  snow was quite  26 heavy?  27 A  Yes.  28 Q  Okay.  So, Mr. Fletcher, I take it that when you say  29 that on these surveys you didn't see signs of Indian  30 hunting away from roads or settlements, you didn't —  31 you can't say whether Indians hunted or trapped at  32 that time or not?  33 A  No, nobody can say that.  What can you see from the  34 air?  35 Q  Right.  36 A  Yes.  37 Q  And you as a trapper know that — you would set your  38 traps — you wouldn't set your traps across the middle  39 of a lake?  40 A  No.  41 Q  You would set them in the timber?  42 A  Yes.  43 Q  Okay.  44 A  But most trappers follow the edge of a lake because  45 it's easygoing.  46 Q  Uh-huh.  47 A  But then most of the trapline trails, I assume, were 74  A.E. Fletcher (for Province)  Cross-exam by Mr. Grant  1  2  3  4  5  Q  6  7  A  8  Q  9  A  10  Q  11  12  A  13  Q  14  A  15  Q  16  17  A  18  19  20  21  Q  22  23  24  A  25  Q  26  27  28  29  A  30  Q  31  A  32  Q  33  A  34  Q  35  36  A  37  Q  38  A  39  Q  40  41  A  42  Q  43  A  44  Q  45  A  46  Q  47  in the timber, because before the lakes freeze you  have to travel in the timber.  But I think after the  lakes freeze, well then they maybe travel on the ice  because it's easier going.  But when there is heavy snowfalls, it's not that easy  to go across lakes?  It's easier than in the timber when it gets real deep.  Well, in the month of January?  Yes.  Here, and as I understand in the fifties, there was  more snow than there is today in most winters?  Yes.  You would agree with that?  Yes.  And in the month of January there was usually heavy  snow?  Most years in the month of January you get a Chinook,  and that will put a crust down so that you can just  about walk on the crust after January, after you get a  chinook.  Okay.  Did you ever check any of these areas that you  were flying over to determine who held the traplines  over these lakes?  No.  Did you ever — okay.  Now, let's talk about your  predator control flights.  When you went out on a  predator control flight, you had your horse meat with  you?  Yes.  And you were concentrating on finding wolves —  Yes.  — firstly? Wolves or coyotes?  Wolf and wolf kills.  And secondly wolf kills.  If you could see a moose,  for example, that was brought down, or a deer?  Yes.  That's what you were concentrating on?  Yes.  Did Mr. Cox every request that you look for signs of  Indian trappers?  No.  And you never did?  No.  That wasn't what you were — your interest was?  No.  And as you say, you started these 30 years ago, these  flights, or 36, if it started in '53. 75  A.E. Fletcher (for Province)  Cross-exam by Mr. Grant  1  A  2  Q  3  4  5  6  A  7  Q  8  A  9  10  11  12  Q  13  14  A  15  Q  16  17  A  18  19  20  21  22  Q  23  24  25  26  27  A  28  Q  29  30  A  31  Q  32  A  33  Q  34  35  36  37  38  A  39  Q  40  41  42  43  44  45  A  46  47  Q  Yes.  Would it be fair to say that you can't recall — you  may well have seen — on some occasions seen sign of  Indians, it's just like the cabins, but you just can't  remember?  Yes.  Would that be fair to say?  Yes, I can remember seeing snowshoe tracks on lots of  lakes, but who knows who made them.  I wasn't worried  or concerned about who was there or what they were  doing or anything else.  That's right.  And you did see snowshoe tracks on  lakes?  Yes, I seen some snowshoe tracks.  Do you recall one example of one lake where you saw  such snowshoe tracks?  I think — but then — lakes that are within 10 or 15  miles of a town, like Burns Lake, there is lots of ice  fishermen out there and things like that in the  winter-time, so you have no idea who made these  tracks.  No.  Just listen to my question again. Do you  recall — can you give me an example from the list in  paragraph 17 of one lake where you remember seeing  snowshoe tracks, or can you remember which lakes you  saw them on?  I remember seeing snowshoe tracks on Babine Lake.  Okay.  Do you remember seeing snowshoe tracks on  Francois Lake?  No, I can't say I did.  Okay.  Or Ootsa Lake?  No, I don't think so.  Okay.  But if I understand your evidence, you are not  suggesting in this last sentence on paragraph 17 that  you believe Indians were not hunting away from roads  and settlements in that 15 year period? You are not  suggesting that?  No.  Was there not something else that impacted on your  ability to trap around the 1952 period when you  stopped using your traplines so much and you were  working full time? And here I am referring to the  price of furs. Do you remember that, the fur prices  crashing around —  The fur prices were poor, and the chance of a —  getting a government job was pretty attractive.  You had a steady income, then, for your family. You 76  A.E. Fletcher (for Province)  Cross-exam by Mr. Grant  1  2  A  3  Q  4  A  5  Q  6  7  A  8  Q  9  10  A  11  Q  12  13  A  14  15  16  *  17  18  Q  19  20  A  21  22  Q  23  24  A  25  Q  26  27  28  A  29  Q  30  A  31  32  33  Q  34  35  36  37  A  38  Q  39  A  40  Q  41  42  43  A  44  Q  45  A  46  47  had a young family at that time?  And government vehicle supplied and all your clothes.  But you remember the fur prices going down, don't you?  Yes.  And the marten, I think the marten, if I remember  rightly, went down quite low?  Yes.  And that continued  for most of  the  time that you were  employed by  the Game Department,  wasn't  it?  Yes.  Did you continue to see David Dennis and Jack Joseph  after you worked with the Game Department?  I can't remember when — I think it was probably gone  at that time.  I can't remember the year he died.  I  can't remember when David Dennis died either, but it's  not that many years ago.  I think — I'm pretty sure I  talked to David Dennis after —  I understand David Dennis would have been alive during  this 15 year period.  But I was just trying to remember how many years after  I quit that Dave still lived.  But do you remember — my understanding is he died  only a few years ago.  Yes.  But do you remember that David Dennis was still  trapping out in his area while you were working with  the ~  Yes, I remember that.  And that Jack Joseph was still trapping out there?  I think Jack had quit, and one of his sons was  trapping that trapline after I worked with the Fish &  Wildlife.  Okay.  So with respect to one of the lakes you  referred to in paragraph 17, that being McDonell Lake,  you didn't see — you may or may not have seen  snowshoe tracks on that lake?  It was there.  But you knew he was there?  Yes.  Do you remember — you went out there — do you  remember at the outlet of McDonell Lake where his  cabin was?  I have been there.  You have been to his cabin?  I trapped for the government survey there for two or  three months one summer, and they camped right beside  his cabin. 77  A.E. Fletcher (for Province)  Cross-exam by Mr. Grant  1 Q  And that was Jack's own cabin?  2 A  Yes.  3 Q  So you knew — that certainly was a sign of his  4 trapping there.  You knew full well?  5 A  I knew that, yes.  6 Q  Okay.  He was trapping there.  You went to Two Bridge  7 Lake during the time you were guiding, right?  8 A  Uh-huh.  9 Q  I understand, from what you described this morning,  10 you did not go there when you were trapping to Two  11 Bridge.  12 A  No.  13 Q  Did you go there — in that period of time did you  14 travel with — like just hunting or with friends?  15 A  Went fishing there.  16 Q  You went fishing there.  Do you recall a fish trap  17 that was at the outlet of Two Bridge Lake, that was in  18 the spruce boughs at the outlet of Two Bridge Lake?  19 A  I don't remember seeing it.  20 Q  You don't remember seeing it.  Do you remember someone  21 describing it to you when you went on a trip with them  22 out there, that is that they saw?  23 A  I think high water would take it out in the spring.  24 Q  I am talking about on the bank.  25 A  On the bank, no, I don't remember seeing one.  26 Q  You don't?  27 A  No.  28 Q  You wouldn't describe what you did in this — in your  29 long career of being on this guiding and hunting and  30 trapping, you wouldn't describe it as roaming, would  31 you?  3 2 A  No.  33 Q  That wouldn't be a way to describe it?  34 A  No.  35 Q       Have you been up Cronin Mountain?  36 A      Yes.  37 Q  And there is marmots on Cronin Mountain?  38 A  Yes.  39 Q  When would you have gone up Cronin? Like about  40 what — what period of time?  41 A  Well, I wasn't right up on top of the Cronin Mountain,  42 but we went — the trail from Silver King Basin to  43 Cronin mine went around on the edge of Mount Cronin,  44 and we went everyday for 65 days on that trail.  45 Q  That was when you were up there packing?  46 A  I didn't hunt on Cronin Mountain.  47 Q  If I remember rightly, that was 1948 that you were 78  A.E. Fletcher (for Province)  Cross-exam by Mr. Grant  1 there?  2 A  I think so.  3 Q  Were you there in 1945?  4 A  No.  5 Q  On Cronin?  6 A  No.  7 Q  You wouldn't — okay.  So you wouldn't know if Indian  8 people were up there trapping or hunting marmot?  9 A  No.  10 Q  The only time you can speak of is that 65 day period?  11 A  Yes.  12 Q  Now, that, of course, wasn't the trapping season, was  13 it?  14 A  No, that was September and October.  15 Q  Right.  You would have no knowledge of traplines along  16 Meed Creek or Gramophone Creek?  17 A  No.  18 Q  M-e-e-d and G-r-a-m-o-p-h-o-n-e.  Do you recognize  19 this area here? And I believe this is the same, so  20 just — I am referring you to Exhibit 174.  21 MR. WILLMS:  This one is 173.  22 MR. GRANT:  And 173.  Yes.  Thank you.  23 Q  Just let me know if you — not interested in the  24 people in Exhibit 174, but just if you recognize that  25 area.  26 A  It doesn't — it looks like a hundred other lakes near  27 Alpine country.  It's hard to — I have seen lots of  28 lakes that look just like it, and I am just trying  29 to ~  30 Q  It's a flat up —I am instructed that it's a flat up  31 on the trail that goes up towards Cronin.  Just so  32 that you understand, from the — it would be up in the  33 Babines below there, and it's a place where — I don't  34 know — can't recall what you would call it.  Where  35 pack horses would be — a pack horse base would be set  36 up there.  Does that — did you use such a base up in  37 the Babines?  38 A  The only base we used is Silver King Basin.  39 Q  Itself?  40 A  Yes, Silver King Basin itself.  And this isn't it,  41 that's for sure.  42 Q  Okay.  Fair enough.  43 A  But --  44 Q  That's okay.  45 A  Kind of looks familiar, that mountain, but it's really  46 hard to —  47 Q  Well, have you ever seen this cabin, Exhibit 202, tab 79  A.E. Fletcher (for Province)  Cross-exam by Mr. Grant  1  2  A  3  Q  4  A  5  Q  6  7  A  8  Q  9  10  A  11  12  Q  13  14  15  16  17  A  18  Q  19  A  20  Q  21  22  23  24  A  25  Q  26  A  27  Q  28  29  A  30  Q  31  32  A  33  Q  34  A  35  Q  36  A  37  38  39  40  Q  41  A  42  Q  43  A  44  Q  45  A  46  Q  47  2?  It's labelled as "Old Namox Cabin".  No, I can't say I have seen that.  The cabins on the side of Goosley Lake?  Sam Goosley Lake, no, I can't say I have seen that.  What about this cabin, Exhibit 208.  You can disregard  the writing on it.  No, I don't think I have ever seen that cabin.  Okay.  That's a cabin on the far end of Sam Goosley  Lake.  That's at the southeast corner.  You see, in the winter-time with three or four feet  you could fly over it and probably wouldn't notice.  Right.  And that's really the situation when you are  flying.  I mean, that's one of the reasons why flying  may be good for moose surveys or wolf predator  control, but it's not good for determining where  people are?  No.  You would agree with that?  Yes.  I am going to show you Exhibit 219.  It's a photograph  of some people on Dennis Mountain.  Do you recognize  where that photograph is taken? You know Dennis  Mountain, don't you?  It's behind Dennis Lake, I guess.  I assume.  Right.  I have only flown over there in the winter-time.  Okay.  So you have never gone to Dennis Mountain or  that area?  Not on foot or horseback.  Okay.  Now, in your affidavit you suggest you went  into the Telkwa —  Yes.  Where are you referring to there in packing?  I went in there on a pack trip with an old packer —  Telkwa Mountains?  From Sunset Basin over past two little humps called  Camel Humps, and then Sunset Basin and then Dominion  Basin, and then back to Mooseskin Johnny Lake.  We  were hunting caribou.  Okay.  And was that one of your guiding trips?  No, that was only — I was only 18 years old.  And you only went in there once?  Yes.  Did you know who Mooseskin Johnny was?  No.  Okay.  Now, if you look at paragraph 18 at the bottom  of page 4.  The reference there to: 80  A.E. Fletcher (for Province)  Cross-exam by Mr. Grant  1  2 "I have travelled by foot and by horseback  3 during pack train, guiding, trapping and  4 hunting activities in the Telkwa Mountains."  5  6 Just stop there.  The only trip into the Telkwa  7 Mountains was the one you just described when you were  8 18; is that right?  I am not saying this is in error,  9 because you go on to describe other areas, but I just  10 want to be sure when we are talking about the Telkwa  11 Mountains, talking about this one hunting trip.  12 A  Yes.  13 Q  But then what you did again, the way the affidavit is  14 worded, it lists all these different things.  When you  15 went to McDonell Lake, what you did there was you did  16 packing trips?  17 A  Yes.  18 Q  That's all you did at the McDonell Lake? You didn't  19 guide, trap or hunt there?  20 A  Yes.  21 Q  When you talk about Silver King Basin, you are talking  22 about your packing, your guiding and your trapping?  23 A  Yes.  24 Q  You own the McFee ranch now? It's now yours? That's  25 what it was, originally was?  26 A  Yes.  27 Q  And you did own your father's family farm.  In  28 paragraph 19 you say that you have owned farms and  29 ranches in the Driftwood Creek area since the 1930's,  30 and purchased and sold several other rural properties?  31 A  That's right.  32 Q  Where were those other rural properties?  33 A  I bought and sold a 3 20 acre ranch that was owned by  34 Bill Bruce.  35 Q  Where is that?  36 A  That's on a — two miles west of my place.  37 Q  Do you remember the lot number it would be? Let me  38 just —  39 A  I think it's 846.  40 Q  I understood 846 is the one you own now.  41 A  Oh, yes.  If I could see the map.  42 Q  Just take a look at this map here and show you 846.  43 That may help you.  44 A  Yes, I can find it on there.  45 Q  Except it's very small.  Here is 846 here, and there  46 is 4765 there.  47 A  It's right over here somewhere. 81  A.E. Fletcher (for Province)  Cross-exam by Mr. Grant  1 Q Around the area of either 844 or 22?  2 A No, it's not 22, because I used to own that too.  I  3 got it left to me in his will, 22.  There it is there.  4 Q 844?  5 A That's it.  6 Q It's on the other side of?  7 A Telkwa High Road.  8 Q Cignet Creek? C-I-G-N-E-T.  9 A That's right.  10 Q So now somebody left you lot 22 in their will.  That's  11 on the south side of Cignet Creek?  12 A That's right.  13 Q Any others, properties that you are referring to  14 there?  15 A No.  16 Q So just to be clear, there is the Bruce — I believe  17 lot 844 is the Bruce ranch?  18 A Yes.  19 Q And you bought that and sold it?  20 A Yes.  21 Q There is lot 22.  Who left you that? Whose was that?  22 A A Russian guy that was a close friend of my Dad's, and  23 he was like an uncle to us, and when he died he left  24 it to us.  25 Q I  see.     Okay.     And to you and your brother  you mean?  26 A Yes.  27 Q Okay.  And then you now have 846, and your family farm  28 was 4765?  29 A Yes.  30 Q Are there any others that you recall?  31 A Yes, there is one right behind — right at the top of  32 the one I am on now, and adjoining the other one too.  33 Southwest corner of section 23.  3 4 Q Okay.  35 A I bought that when I was young, and I sold it a few  36 years ago.  37 Q Okay.  Do you recall who you sold it to?  38 A Yes, a fellow from California by the name of Gene  3 9 Coles.  40 Q Okay.  In the time when you had your sawmill, do you  41 remember Gabriel Louie?  42 A Yes.  43 Q He would have to go past your place to get up to his?  44 A He went up through the Russian guy's place, he went up  45 to section 22. And he had a sawmill up there for  46 several winters, I think.  I knew Gabriel Louie.  47 Q And he was a Wet'suwet'en, or he was an Indian from 82  A.E. Fletcher (for Province)  Cross-exam by Mr. Grant  1  2  A  3  Q  4  5  6  7  8  A  9  10  11  12  Q  13  A  14  Q  15  16  17  A  18  19  Q  20  A  21  22  23  Q  24  25  26  A  27  Q  28  29  A  30  Q  31  32  33  34  A  35  Q  36  37  A  38  Q  39  40  A  41  Q  42  A  43  Q  44  A  45  MR. GRANT:  46  47  Moricetown?  Yes.  I would like you to look at your affidavit.  Look at  the map.  I think it's site 29.  How many times have  you flown over Kuldo, now that you see where it is?  It's across the next watershed from Swan Lake, as you  can see.  I don't think more than once or twice in 15 years on  my way up to Meziadin and Bowser Lake.  Would just  happen to be in our flight plan.  No special reason  for going there.  And Bowser Lake, you only flew up there —  A couple of times.  A couple of times.  Okay.  And you can't specifically  remember what you saw or didn't see at Kuldo or Bowser  Lake?  I was mistaken before.  Like I said, I saw wolves  trying to kill a moose, and I thought it was on —  Meziadin?  I thought it was Meziadin, but thinking about it now,  it was on Bowser Lake that the wolves were trying to  kill a moose.  But other than seeing those wolves killing a moose on  Bowser Lake, you don't really remember anything of  what you saw on Meziadin, Kuldo or Bowser Lake?  Just the odd moose.  Okay.  And I think you didn't remember the year you  saw that kill either, did you?  No, not exactly.  In the sixties some time.  Okay.  Can you just look at the map again.  Damdochax  is number 3 2 up at the top of the map, and 28 is  Slamgeesh.  They are very close. You can see on the  map there.  Yes.  I just — okay.  You just said you flew up there maybe  once or twice?  Yes.  And again you don't remember the years, and you don't  remember what you saw up there?  No.  It's poor game country there.  Okay.  Poor big game?  Yes.  Is that still known that way today too?  I don't know.  Since I quit I have no contact.  Right.  Okay.  Maybe we could just take the  afternoon break. 83  A.E. Fletcher (for Province)  Cross-exam by Mr. Grant  1  2  3  4  Q  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  12  A  13  Q  14  A  15  16  Q  17  A  18  19  20  Q  21  A  22  Q  23  A  24  Q  25  26  27  A  28  29  30  31  Q  32  33  A  34  Q  35  36  A  37  Q  38  A  39  Q  40  41  A  42  Q  43  44  45  46  47  A  (PROCEEDINGS ADJOURNED)  (PROCEEDINGS RECONVENED)  Okay.  I would like to show you Exhibit 164 again.  And I would just like to point to you the dotted line  from Glen Tanna numbered six going up to Two Bridge  Lake and then circling over to the number 3 and coming  down at a place labelled IR number 3, which is — it  goes along Gramophone Creek.  Now, do you — have you  seen — you have travelled, as I understand it, up to  Two Bridge Lake on many occasions?  Uh-huh.  And have you seen this trail?  I am pretty sure I have seen it.  Where we used to  pick huckleberries on those meadows up there.  Yes.  Up above a mile above that, I'm sure there is some old  blazes in this trail there.  It's on the height of  land.  Right.  Where it should be.  Okay.  When you say where it should be?  Traplines are usually divided by height of lands.  Okay. But a trail in that terrain, if someone was  going to use a trail, they would — that would be the  best place to put the trail; is that right?  Well, the timber — the higher you go, the thinner the  timber is.  And that's the top of the mountain.  This  side drains towards Driftwood, and that drains towards  Rieseter Creek.  So if you follow the height of land.  So you have seen part of this trail above the berry  ground?  Yes.  The blazes.  Now, at Two Bridge you have travelled  over the other way towards Gramophone?  Never.  And you have never been in that area at all?  No.  Not just mean for trapping, but hunting, exploring,  packing, anything.  No.  Have you ever seen any signs — did you ever notice a  sign of a trail going away from Two Bridge Lake? I  believe you said this one marked in green would be  what you believe the lower lake, Two Bridge Lake down  in the general direction of trail number 3.  No, I have never been in that area. 84  A.E. Fletcher (for Province)  Cross-exam by Mr. Grant  1  Q  2  3  4  A  5  Q  6  7  8  9  10  11  A  12  13  Q  14  15  A  16  Q  17  18  19  A  20  21  22  23  24  Q  25  26  A  27  Q  28  29  A  30  31  32  Q  33  34  A  35  36  37  38  Q  39  40  41  A  42  Q  43  44  45  A  46  Q  47  Okay.  So you would not disagree with evidence that  this trail — that there is a trail on the dotted line  number 6 and a trail on the dotted line number 3?  Yes.  I take it, from your evidence relating to these lakes,  that you cannot recall, except — you cannot recall  whether or not you have seen — you may have seen  snowshoes on some of these lakes that you have  referred to in paragraph 17. You may have.  The one  you recall is Babine, but you just can't remember?  Well, you are flying thousands and thousands of miles  every winter.  It just doesn't register.  And of course this is something you would not have  recorded on these maps, would you?  No.  Okay.  Tell me what you did record on the maps that  you remember.  What kinds of things would you put on  these maps that you turned into Les Cox?  Mostly game populations, concentrations of game  populations, and the total number of game counted that  day, and approximately the areas where they were, most  of them were.  And while on a game survey that's all  we did is count game and make a record of what we saw.  Right.  And did you do similar mapping when you did  the predator control?  Yes.  And then you would just put your mark where there was  a draw —  On the predatory maps I used — had a map on the wall,  a big map, and I used little pins, and I put pins —  every bait I dropped was marked by a pin.  And would you use the same map over and over, moving  the pins around?  Yes, from year to year.  I take the pins out one year,  and then the next year when I started I would put the  pins back in as I started the programme for the  winter.  So even if Mr. Willms could locate the predator  control map, it wouldn't show anything except a large  number of holes in it?  I think it's full of pin holes.  And you didn't put any permanent mark on it.  But the  game control maps, you did put marks on the maps  themselves?  Yes.  Because they were a record of the game population at  that time? 85  A.E.   Fletcher   (for  Province)  Cross-exam by  Mr.   Grant  1 A  Yes.  2 Q  Now, you had wanted to say something about these maps.  3 A  That's what I meant to say, was that map was full of  4 pin holes.  5 Q  So that assists.  With regard to the game survey, did  6 you do a separate map for each flight you did?  7 A  No.  They had a main map, and whenever you did a  8 flight you would mark on there what you saw for the  9 day.  10 Q  When you came back?  11 A  When you came back you would mark in so many animals  12 counted for the day.  13 Q  So was a new map started each year?  14 A  Yes.  15 Q  I see.  So then you —  16 A  I assumed Les Cox filed away the maps from year to  17 year so you could make comparisons.  I am sure he did  18 that.  19 Q  I understand that Dr. Hattler made reference to your  20 game survey maps.  21 A  Yes, I think he has seen them.  22 Q  Yes.  I am showing you Exhibit 358-11 or a copy of  23 Exhibit 3 58-11, which is map of the range and  24 distribution of caribou.  Now, this was tendered in  25 court, and the lighter brown, which is all I am — we  26 are really interested in for the moment, I think, the  27 lighter brown — the lightest coloured brown shows  28 present 1860 and later, but not significantly since  29 about 1920, and that comes up through the east side of  30 the Bulkley Valley and comes across the Bulkley to  31 Kispiox.  Do you see what I mean? Now, the  32 commentary, the summary that was described in evidence  33 was that:  34 "Two groups of caribou in the map area, the  35 Tweedsmuir Circle Herd of more than 350 animals  36 and the Telkwa Herd of about 70 animals, may  37 have once belonged to a single population whose  3 8 range extended north into the now mostly vacant  39 Babine Ranges, the Hazelton Mountains, and  40 Nechako Plateau."  41  42 And that's consistent with your observations.  And  43 then it says:  44  45 "Withdrawal from that area north of the Bulkley  46 Valley likely occured by the 1920's, after the  47 construction of the railway and the 86  A.E. Fletcher (for Province)  Cross-exam by Mr. Grant  1  2  3  4  5  6  A  7  Q  8  9  A  10  11  12  Q  13  14  A  15  Q  16  A  17  Q  18  19  A  20  Q  21  22  A  23  Q  24  25  A  26  Q  27  A  28  29  Q  30  A  31  32  33  34  Q  35  36  37  38  A  39  40  Q  41  A  42  Q  43  A  44  Q  45  A  46  Q  47  accompanying increase in the settlement of the  valley."  And that's consistent with your own personal  observations?  Yes.  When you did game counts, did you do caribou counts as  well?  Every winter in the Telkwa Mountains and Tweedsmuir  Mountain and Tweedsmuir Park around Mount Wells is the  main caribou herd.  So this is reflected here down in this area, I  believe?  Yes.  That's near the —  Well, I did mostly just this area here.  Okay.  Just a moment.  You are indicating between the  Nechako Reservoir and Ootsa Lake?  Mount Wells has got to be in here somewhere.  I am sure it is.  It may or may not be labelled.  But  that's the area you are referring to?  Yes.  And then the Telkwa range ones is that circle of heavy  population just southwest of Smithers?  When I quit in 1966 we counted 273 caribou there.  Okay.  That was the Telkwa herd?  Telkwa herd was that number, but there is hardly any  of them left any more.  Okay.  My dad saw 13 caribou on the trail between Driftwood  Creek and Rieseter Creek.  Right at the height of land  there is a beaver pond there.  Saw 13 caribou there in  1907, so that was about the last Babine herd, I think.  Okay.  Just a moment.  Just hold that for a second.  Just referring again to 164.  Could you just indicate  for me where you are referring to that your dad saw  them?  Right on the height of land — there is a swamp at the  height of land, and it's right there beside the trail.  Okay.  And saw 13 caribou there.  And you are referring to trail number 6?  Yes.  Right where it joins — crosses over the blue line?  Uh-huh.  On the lower right-hand side of Exhibit 164, and there  is actually three lines, the green line indicating 87  A.E. Fletcher (for Province)  Cross-exam by Mr. Grant  1  2  3  4  A  5  Q  6  A  7  Q  8  A  9  Q  10  11  A  12  Q  13  14  A  15  Q  16  17  A  18  19  20  21  Q  22  A  23  Q  24  25  26  27  28  A  29  30  31  32  33  34  Q  35  36  A  37  Q  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  A  47  Q  beaver, the dotted red line and the blue line, and at  that juncture you're saying around the area where your  dad saw the 13 caribou?  Yes, around there.  Okay.  Lots of caribou horns around Rieseter Lake.  And you have seen those?  Oh, yes.  You know the trail going up to Two Bridge or Rieseter  Lake?  Uh-huh.  And that trail follows the creek, if I remember  rightly, right near the lake?  Yes.  And if you are going towards the lake on the trail,  the creek would be on your right-hand side?  Going up Two Bridge Lake and Lagopus Mountain here,  and the trail comes in like this and Rieseter Creek  comes down here.  You would be following the creek,  would be on your left-hand side going up.  I'm sorry, the creek would be on your left-hand side?  Yes.  And the evidence of the location of the fish trap was  that it was right at the mouth of the lake, not in the  creek.  It was under spruce branches on the side —  right on the side of the creek right across from the  trail, that is the other side.  Yes.  I never crossed the creek there.  I just went  fishing in the lake a few times, and we came in from  the trail and camped on the beach there on the  right-hand side of the lake, and fished there and went  back on the same trail.  So I wasn't over on the other  side.  Okay.  So if you had been, you may have seen it, but  you weren't there?  Yes.  Okay.  Now, the only other thing is that on this map  the trail number 3 — I am referring, I'm sorry, to  Exhibit 164, a trail numbered 3 up near the top.  That  is up near towards Rieseter Lake.  That there is a —  Mrs. Alfred has given evidence and Mr. Henry Alfred  that there was a cache of traps there in the spruce  trees.  But you would not have had occasion to see  those, because you never travelled in that area, did  you?  Never been down there.  Okay.     Now,  Alfred Mitchell gave evidence  that  he 88  A.E. Fletcher (for Province)  Cross-exam by Mr. Grant  1 hunted in the summer of 1947 in Silver King Basin for  2 marmots.  That may well have been the case?  3 A  Quite possible.  4 Q  Okay.  And he hunted in the 1950's up there for goat,  5 and that may well have been possible?  6 A  Yes.  7 Q  Do you recall Lefty Gardiner — do you know John  8 Namox?  9 A  No, I don't.  10 Q  Okay.  Mr. Mitchell also gave evidence that he and  11 Sylvester Williams trapped around Pack Lake, tracked  12 beaver in the spring in the Pack Lake area.  You know  13 that's in the area of Nanika, that area? You know  14 where Pack Lake is, do you?  15 A  Nanika — yes, Nanika is up here, up past the end of  16 Morice Lake.  And Pack —  17 Q  It's quite small.  Pack Lake is small.  18 A  I think I know where it is.  19 Q  Okay.  You would have — you wouldn't dispute that he  20 was trapping in there? You wouldn't know that?  21 A  No.  22 Q  Okay.  Did you hear of caribou in the Hunter Basin  23 area in the early 1900*s?  24 A  In the 1900»s.  25 Q  Well, did you hear of caribou in the Hunter Basin  26 area?  27 A  I counted lots of bear, caribou.  After one had did  28 the caribou surveys, we would see caribou in Hunter  29 Basin and Dominion Basin and around Mooseskin Johnny  30 Lake, that whole area.  The first year I counted 170  31 caribou in 1952 or 3 or whatever year it was, and then  32 when I quit it was up to 270.  But now they are down  33 again.  34 Q  Now, that — when we are talking about the Hunter  35 Basin, then, we are talking about that area that you  36 showed me on the map on the Telkwa? That's the Telkwa  37  38  39 Q  Okay.  Well, thank you, Mr. Fletcher.  Those are all  40 my questions on your cross-examination, subject to my  41 friend providing me or my friend making investigation  42 and determining if he can locate these maps which you  43 prepared, and if necessary, which I hope it won't be,  44 but if necessary I may have to ask you some questions  45 arising out of that.  And I am going to leave my  46 cross-examination open for that purpose.  47 MR. WILLMS:  Well, I don't agree that it's open, but we don't  Q  Now, that —  Basin, then,  showed me on  herd?  A  Yes.  Q  Okay.  Well, 89  A.E. Fletcher (for Province)  Exam by Mr. Willms  1 need to argue about it, because that's not going to  2 get us anywhere.  3 MR. GRANT:  Well —  4 MR. WILLMS:  But I don't agree that your cross is — you say  5 it's open, I say it isn't.  It's on the record.  6 MR. GRANT:  My cross is open for that, and also, of course, for  7 the 1935, '36 trapline material.  8 MR. WILLMS:  I have got some re-examination.  9  10 EXAMINATIQN_BY_MRJ, _WILLMS:  11  12 Q  Mr. Fletcher, you will recall that —  13 MR. GRANT:  Wait a minute.  Before you put this document to him,  14 this is not a document that I put to him.  15 MR. WILLMS:  It's from the Attorney General of Canada file of  16 Peter Bazil.  17 MR. GRANT:  So what.  18 MR. WILLMS:  That's where you got — you see, you put the wrong  19 registration to him, Mr. Grant, and I am just trying  20 to clear that up for the record.  You put two  21 registrations to the witness as if they were the  22 registrations that were being cancelled under the  23 documentation that you put to the witness.  I am just  24 putting before the witness right now the actual  25 registration that was the subject of the  26 correspondence that you put before the witness, and I  27 am just putting that before the witness so that the  28 witness understands.  29 MR. GRANT:  Don't explain what the witness should understand.  30 Put your document to him and ask him the question, and  31 I will consider whether to object.  32 MR. WILLMS:  33 Q  And I am also showing you — I wonder if Exhibit 7 —  34 my friend put to you a letter of March 24th, 19 — my  35 friend put to you, and I am showing you Exhibit 4.  36 The first part is a letter of January 17th, 1935 from  37 Mr. Muirhead to the commanding officer in Prince  38 George, talking about the cancellation of the trapline  39 of Peter Bazil and Company of Moricetown B.C.  And  40 then you will see there is another part of it, May  41 3rd, 1935, from Mr. Van Dyk to the Game Warden at  42 Telkwa talking about it — about the application of  43 Peter Bazil.  And in the document that I have just put  44 in front of you, it has application for registration  45 of a trapline, Peter Bazil & Company, and you will see  46 handwritten on it "Cancelled May 4th, 1935." Do you  47 see that handwritten on? 90  A.E. Fletcher (for Province)  Exam by Mr. Willms  1 A  Uh-huh.  2 Q  Do you know whether or not which trapline registration  3 it was that was being cancelled in Exhibit 4?  4 A  No.  5 Q  You don't.  6 Could that be Exhibit 8 please.  7  8 (EXHIBIT_NO._8 - JANUARY 17, 193 5 LETTER  9 FROM MR. MUIRHEAD RE TRAPLINE - MAY 3, 1935  10 LETTER FROM MR. VAN DYK TO GAME WARDEN)  11  12 MR. GRANT:  Just to be clear, I don't think — I think in light  13 of the subsequent correspondence, that the January  14 17th, '35 letter is a proposed cancellation.  I don't  15 believe that — it may ultimately have been the one  16 that was cancelled, but it's not —  17 MR. WILLMS:  Well —  18 MR. GRANT:  I have got no problem with you putting it in.  I am  19 not objecting to it going in as an exhibit.  20 MR. WILLMS:  21 Q  All right.  Now, you will recall that the exhibits  22 that my friend put before you respecting cancellation  23 of a trapline refer to, in the most part, a Mr. Peter  24 Bazil?  25 A  Yes.  26 Q  Did you ever talk to Mr. Peter Bazil?  27 A  No.  28 Q  All right.  Did he ever talk about your trapline or  29 your trapping with you?  30 MR. GRANT:  He just said he never talked to him.  31 MR. WILLMS:  32 Q  Now, in 19— in the 1930's did any native Indian talk  33 to you about your trapline.  34 MR. GRANT:  I object.  I object.  How does that arise out of  35 my —  36 MR. WILLMS:  Well, all right.  37 Q  Do you know Arthur Michell? Have you heard that name?  38 A  I heard it, but I don't know him.  39 Q  Have you ever spoken to him?  40 A  I don't think so.  41 Q  Do you know Bazil Michell?  42 A  I knew Arthur Michell.  43 Q  Did you ever speak to him?  44 A  No — I mean Peter Michell.  45 Q  Well, I have done Peter Bazil.  How about Arthur  46 Michell?  47 A      Well  now,   who owned the  trapline? 91  A.E. Fletcher (for Province)  Exam by Mr. Willms  1 Q Well, just — you have to answer my question.  2 A Okay.  3 Q Sorry.  If you can remember.  4 A No, I can't remember talking to anyone.  5 Q All right.  Bazil Michell?  6 A. No.  7 Q Tommy Michell?  8 A No.  9 Q Ben Michell?  10 A No.  11 Q Ester Michell?  12 A No.  13 Q Walter Michell?  14 A No.  15 Q Madeline Michell?  16 A No.  17 Q Paul Baptiste?  18 A No.  19 Q John Baptiste?  20 A No.  21 Q Estelle Baptiste?  22 A I knew who they were vaguely, but I never talked to  23 them.  24 Q All right.  But these are people where you don't —  25 you can't put the name to a face?  26 A No.  27 Q All right.  But — so that none of these people — you  28 don't know if anybody of this name has talked to you?  29 A No.  30 Q All right.  And you can't put a face to a name —  31 MR. GRANT:  Don't re-cross your own witness.  32 MR. WILLMS:  He has said he can't put a face to a name.  33 Q Did any native Indians, whose name you didn't  34 recognize or know, speak to you in the 1930's about  35 your trapline?  36 A No.  37 MR.   WILLMS:       That's all  my  re-examination.  38  3 9 I   HEREBY CERTIFY  THE FOREGOING   TO  40 BE  A  TRUE   AND ACCURATE   TRANSCRIPT  41 OF   THE  PROCEEDINGS  HEREIN  TO   THE  42 BEST, OF MY   SK^LL^tAND   ABILITY.  43  44 LORI  OXLEY  45 OFFICIAL REPORTER  46 UNITED REPORTING SERVICE LTD.  47


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