Delgamuukw Trial Transcripts

Commission Evidence of Stanley Williams Vol. 3 British Columbia. Supreme Court Apr 18, 1988

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 nhs f*s/V7tK&  QITKSAN WET'SUWET'EN  TRIBAL COUNCIL  LIBRARY  r  ,3)n ifjc Supreme Kourt of ^irtttsf] Columbia'  (BEFORE THE HONOURABLE THE CHIEF JUSTICE.)  No. 0 8 4 3  Smithers Registry  Hazelton, B.C-  BETWEEN:  Aoril 18,  April 19,  Arpil 20,  1988,  1988,  1986  and  DELGAMUUKW,, also known as ALBERT TAIT,  suing on his own behalf and on behalf  of all other members of the HOUSE OF  DELGAMUUKW, and others,  PIaintiffs;  AND:  HER MAJESTY THE QUEEN IN RIGHT OF THE  PROVINCE OF BRITISH COLUMBIA and  THE ATTORNEY GENERAL OF CANADA,  Defendants.  COMMISSION EVIDENCE OF  STANLEY WILLIAMS  VOL. K  Vol um£3  United Reporting Service Ltd.  OFFICIAL* FREELANCE REPORTERS  610-WKi WEST GEORGIA ST.. VANCOUVER. B C V* E 4H<  Mill ftRO-MlSR <3ln \l\e Supreme (Uourt of |¬ßntislj Columbia  (BEFORE THE HONOURABLE THE CHIEF JUSTICE.)  No. 084 3  Smithers Registry  BETWEEN:  Hazelton, B.C.  April 18,  April 19,  Arpil 20,  1988,  1988,  1988  and  AND:  DELGAMUUKW, also known as ALBERT TAIT,  suing on his own behalf and on behalf  of all other members of the HOUSE OF  DELGAMUUKW, and others,  Plaintiffs;  HER MAJESTY THE QUEEN IN RIGHT OF THE  PROVINCE OF BRITISH COLUMBIA and  THE ATTORNEY GENERAL OF CANADA,  Defendants,  COMMISSION EVIDENCE OF  STANLEY WILLIAMS  VOL 3 APPEARANCES FOR APRIL 18, 1988  PETER R. GRANT, Esq., Appearing for the Plaintiffs  P. GEOFFREY PLANT, Esq. and Appearing for Her Majesty the  MS. THORA A. SIGURDSON, Queen in Right of the Province  of British Columbia  MS. MARVYN KOENIGSBERG, and Appearing for the Attorney-General  MICHAEL W.W. FREY, Esq., of Canada  APPEARANCES FOR APRIL 19, 1988  PETER R. GRANT, Esq., Appearing for the Plaintiffs  P. GEOFFREY PLANT, Esq., and Appearing for Her Majesty the  MS. THORA A. SIGURDSON, Queen in Right of the Province  of British Columbia  MS. MARVYN KOENIGSBERG, and Appearing for the Attorney-General  MICHAEL W.W. FREY, Esq., of Canada  APPEARANCES FOR APRIL 20, 1988  PETER R. GRANT, Esq., Appearing for the Plaintiffs  P. GEOFFREY PLANT, Esq.,        Appearing for Her Majesty the  Queen in Right of the Province  of British Columbia  MS. MARVYN KOENIGSBERG, and  MICHAEL W.W. FREY, Esq.,        Appearing for the Attorney-General  of Canada INDEX OF EXHIBITS  NUMBER DESCRIPTION PAGE  Genealogical Chart of Stanley Williams  dd. January 12, 1988 155  Exhibit 30A, Transcript of Hanamuxw's  Video Tape 191  Undated Letter from David Wells to  Mathias Wesley Re: Death of Walter  Wesley 197 140  S. Williams (for Plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Grant  1 April 18, 1988  2 Hazelton, B.C.  3  4 (PROCEEDINGS RECONVENED AT 10:00 a.m.)  5  6 ALICE SAMPSON:  Previously sworn as interpreter.  7 STANLEY WILLIAMS:  Previously sworn.  8  9    EXAMINATION IN CHIEF CONT. BY MR. GRANT:  10 Q  Gwis gyen, I would like — before I say anything, I  11 would like to confirm that this is Monday, April 18th.  12 This is the fifth day of your commission evidence, and  13 you understand that you are still under oath?  And you  14 understand, Madam Interpreter, that you are still  15 under oath?  16 Before leaving all of these territories, these 24  17 territories that you've described in your affidavit  18 and that you've mapped in Exhibit 4 with the  19 assistance of Mr. Sterrit, I would just like to ask  20 you a few questions about them.  Did you take Neil  21 Sterrit on the Luu Skaiyansit territory, letter A of  22 Exhibit 4 and your affidavit, and show him those  23 boundaries?  24 A  We went there but we didn't — we just went a little  25 ways on a trail, I just point out the mountains to  26 him.  We used the logging road.  27 Q  Okay.  28 A  And I showed Neil the mountain.  29 Q  And did you — you — I believe you gave evidence last  30 week, but just — I have listed these in this order:  31 Did you go on an overflight with Neil over the Hlihl  32 guuhl sganist territory and show him those  33 territories?  3 4 A  Yes, we flew over and I showed him.  35 Q  And similarly, you showed him the boundaries of Xsuwii  36 la^ loobit?  37 A  Yes, I showed him.  38 Q  And the boundaries of Xsa'andilgan, Xsa'andilgan?  39 A  Yes.  40 Q  And similarly, the boundaries of Xsi galdii ess, did  41 you show those to Neil Sterrit?  42 A  Yes.  43 Q  And Anx maiy — Anx maiy litsxw, did you show that  44 boundary to Neil Sterrit?  45 A  Yes.  46 Q  Did you show Ansa ax to Neil Sterrit?  47 A  Yes, I showed it. 141  S. Williams (for Plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Grant  1 Q  And Xsa'andilgan, did you show Neil Sterrit?  2 A  I showed him.  3 Q  And Haahl daakt wii sganist you showed to Neil  4 Sterrit?  5 A  Yes, I showed him.  6 Q  And you showed him the boundaries of Xsugwin  7 Biiyoosxwit?  8 A  Yes, I showed him all of it.  9 Q  And you showed him all of the other boundaries except  10 you did not take Neil — all of the other boundaries  11 described in your affidavit and all of the boundaries  12 described in Exhibit 4 except for the following:  You  13 did not take Neil Sterrit to Xsansisnak, did you?  14 A  No.  I just told him where the location is.  15 Q  And you described those boundaries to him without  16 taking him there?  17 A  Yes, I told him.  18 Q  And you didn't take him to Wii Tax, did you?  19 A  No, I didn't take him there.  20 Q  But you described those boundaries to him?  21 A  Yes.  22 Q  And you took him on part way on Xsuwii Luu Negwit?  23 A  Yes, I showed him.  24 Q  Okay.  So other than those two territories that we've  25 described, you have travelled over — or on all of the  26 other territories with Neil Sterrit; is that right? •  27 I'm referring to the territories described in your  28 affidavit.  29 A  I didn't show him that Xsuwii Masxw, but I showed him  30 where it was off it.  31 MR. PLANT:  I didn't hear that.  32 A  Xsuwii Masxw.  33 MR. GRANT:  34 Q  Xsuwii Masxw.  And this Xsuwii Masxw is the mountain  35 that's up at the head of Xsuwii Luu Negwit; is that  36 right?  37 A  It's past Sganis Mehlasxw.  38 MR. GRANT:  Just go off the record for a moment, please.  39 (OFF THE RECORD DISCUSSION)  40 MR. GRANT:  41 Q  The other day — or last week, Gwis gyen, you were  42 talking about a certain adaawk.  Can you explain —  43 and I'll refer, for example, to the adaawk of the  44 Mediigam ts'uu'wii aks.  Can you explain who owns that  45 adaawk?  46 A       It's  our  adaawk.     Mediigam ts'uu'wii  aks   is  our  47 adaawk,   it  belongs  to  us. 142  S. Williams (for Plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Grant  1 Q  When you say "to us", you mean Gwis gyen's house?  2 A  Yeah.  3 Q  Now, when you say that an adaawk belongs to your  4 house, what does that mean under Gitksan law?  5 A  It slipped my mind what the word is for this saying  6 that the adaawk is ours.  It slipped my mind, the  7 Gitksan word for it.  But the — in the ancient times,  8 Dii aa wilp and Ts'uu eek., these are the members of my  9 house, killed Mediigam ts'uu'wii aks at this lake and  10 this is why we take this as the crest.  And it's  11 passed down from generation to generation and it's  12 recognized by all the — all the other Gitksan people.  13 Mediigam ts'uu'wii aks was killed at that lake but we  14 don't claim the lake.  The lake is not ours, just  15 the — we just take the Mediigam ts'uu'wii aks as our  16 crest.  17 When we have a feast, what we do is we use this  18 during the feast, we use this as our crest, we show  19 this as our crest during the feast.  Later on we — we  20 don't use the body of Mediigam ts'uu'wii aks we just  21 use the hide.  This is what Gwis gyen used in the  22 feast house is the hide of Mediigam ts'uu'wii aks.  I  23 mentioned that the arrows were still in the hide of  24 Mediigam ts'uu'wii aks and this is why it's — we call  25 it Gwiss luu sinjcsxw.  What happened is that Gwis gyen  26 gave the body, the Mediigam ts'uu'wii aks body to'  27 Wiigyet because Wiigyet didn't have any crests or  28 anything that he would use at the feast.  29 Q  Okay.  You've explained that for us last week, you  30 described that here last week about that.  Could I  31 just ask you this:  Is when you say that you own the  32 Mediigam ts'uu'wii aks, can other chiefs, chiefs of  33 other houses tell your adaawk in the feast hall when  34 you own it?  35 A  I could — they could not — the other people could  36 not tell my adaawk because it belongs to Gwis gyen and  37 the house of Gwis gyen.  And I could not tell anyone  38 else's adaawk either, because it is their adaawk, not  39 mine.  40 Q  Okay.  Where — where do you usually tell your adaawk?  41 A  They usually use this when we have a feast, a funeral  42 feast or a pole raising feast, and what happens is the  43 Mediigam ts'uu'wii aks would come into the feast hall  44 and go around — around the hall and then he would go  45 out again, and this was when we still have the  46 Mediigam ts'uu'wii aks in our house.  And one of  47 the — one of our chiefs would stand up and tell 143  S. Williams (for Plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Grant  1 the — where the Mediigam ts'uu'wii aks came from.  2 Q  Why are you telling — you've told a number of adaawk  3 last week.  Why are you telling the adaawk in this  4 court case?  5 A  I was told to tell the truth and he asked me, so this  6 is why I am telling it.  7 Q  Okay.  But in telling those adaawk, are you agreeing  8 that anybody other than the judge can use your adaawk  9 outside of the court case?  10 A  It is not our law to tell the adaawk of any — any —  11 from any house.  Like I could not tell anybody's  12 adaawk and they would not tell my adaawk, and this is  13 our law, the Gitksan people's law.  I can't use their  14 adaawk and they can't use mine.  Look at what we are  15 doing today, we are talking about the territories.  I  16 know the territories of the Gitwingax people and I  17 know the territories of the Kitwancool people —  18 Gitsegukla.  19 MR. PLANT:  Is that a correction?  20 THE INTERPRETER:  Yes, that's a correction.  21 MS. KOENIGSBERG:  Which one?  22 MR. GRANT:  That was your correction?  23 THE INTERPRETER:  It was my correction.  24 A  The territories that I have mentioned, there is  25 adaawks that go with these territories but I never  26 told any of the adaawks on these territories that -I  27 mentioned, because it belongs to the chiefs, the  28 holders of those territories.  And if they want to  29 tell their adaawk, then they would let me know and I  30 would — I would mention it.  31 MR. GRANT:  32 Q  You — but you did describe the adaawk about one of  33 your territories, it's over here behind the mountain  34 at stikyoodin, that was your adaawk; is that right?  35 A  Yes.  That's the only reason why I told, because it  36 belongs to me.  37 Q  Okay.  I would like to move to another area and refer  38 you to a document which is an excerpt from the Barbeau  39 Beynon file, interview with Charles Mark of 1923, and  40 it's a discussion — it's a — it's a 13 page document  41 with is entitled "Hunting Grounds of Gitsegukla".  42 Now, I'm just going to refer you to page — the  43 interpreter to page 5.  I just want to read a part of  44 that for you.  45 MR. PLANT:  Do you have a copy of that for me?  46 MS. KOENIGSBERG:  And me?  47 MR. GRANT:  Actually, I'm shy a copy here.  This is a document ......... ..-.:N.-t:v\;>.'\r*.Tv  144  S. Williams (for Plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Grant  1 that you had actually produced on Gwaans' examination.  2 1*11 get copies.  3 MR. PLANT:  May I look at the document for just a minute,  4 please?  5 MR. GRANT:  6 Q  And I'm referring to page 5.  7 On page 5, they have — there is a statement  8 three lines from the top and it goes like this:  9  10 "Houses of Haak asxw and Gwagl'lo.  11 They both have the same hunting grounds and live  12 in the same hunting house called Miinhl T'ek_wit,  13 forest of mounds.  14  15 "The hunting ground coming near Skeena River —"  16  17 then it's,  18  19 "— p. 7: then goes towards Gitsegukla but does  20 not reach it.  Those of Hanamuxw and Haak asxw are  21 only about two miles apart.  They don't come  22 together.  Nobody uses the strip between or has  23 any right."  24  25 Now, can you read — I'm going to have the  26 interpreter read that — translate that to you and'  27 I'll ask you a question about it.  28 A  And did you want to tell me — did you want me to tell  29 you about Gwagl'lo's territory?  30 Q  No.  I want to ask you — this excerpt appears to have  31 been from an interview between Barbeau and Charles  32 Mark.  You knew who Charles Mark was, eh?  33 A  Yes, I knew him.  34 Q  Okay.  Now, can you — do you know where he is talking  35 about here and can you — do you know — can you  36 explain where he says, "Those of Hanamuxw and Haak  37 asxw are only about two miles apart," can you explain  38 whether there is a separation in that boundary or not,  39 and —  40 MR. PLANT:  Yeah, why don't you start with the first one first,  41 which was, does he know what this is talking about.  42 MR. GRANT:  The only reason I combine the questions is because  43 the witness tends to answer with a great detail of  44 explanations, that's the only reason I was asking both  45 questions at once.  46 MR. PLANT:  Well the second question presumes that the answer to  47 the first question was yes, so — 145  S. Williams (for Plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Grant  1  *1R. GRANT  2  Q  3  4  5  A  6  7  8  9  10  11  12  Q  13  A  14  15  16  17  Q  18  19  A  20  21  Q  22  23  24  25  A  26  27  Q  28  A  29  Q  30  31  32  33  A  34  Q  35  36  A  37  Q  38  39  40  A  41  Q  42  43  A  44  45  Q  46  47  Well, of course he has given evidence of that in his  affidavit and he has given it in the maps so I didn't  think it was contentious that he knew about it.  I think Barbeau was crazy.  The Gwagl'lo's territory  is at — there is a hill there and Miinhl T'ekwit is  there and there is a rock that's — that's just so  steep nobody could climb that rock, and this is what  he is talking about.  He is — there is a rock, it's  just like the wall here that nobody climbs and nobody  uses because it's so steep.  Indicating a vertical wall, for the record.  And down the bottom, there is Hanamuxw's territory is  down the bottom, and the reason why nobody uses that  land is because of the steepness.  It's just nobody  can walk on it.  Is there a name for that mountain where it is so  steep?  It's — the whole thing is known as Miinhl T'ekwit.  Where is Barbeau today?  I think he is six feet under.  Have you travelled on that — on this area near  where it's so steep? Have you seen this steep  mountain side?  Yes, I've seen it.  I take — I travelled on  Gwagl'lo's trail on this side.  You are indicating —  The left.  — the left side.  Do you know another mountain on Gwagl'lo's  territory? Is there another name for a mountain  there?  Xsi noon.  Is it Xsi noon?  Okay.  My understanding is that Xsi noon is a creek;  is that right?  Yeah.  Okay.  I'm asking is there another mountain.  Can you  recall the name of a mountain that you gave to me when  we discussed this territory?  You are not talking about Xsi noon, are you?  No.  I understood that Xsi noon is a creek, I'm asking  for the name of a mountain.  Oh, is it where the headwaters of the Xsi noon comes  from?  No.  I'm talking about a mountain that is near to or  is beside Xsuwii Luu Negwit, in this area that you've  described is very steep. •  146  S. Williams (for Plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Grant  1 A  It starts from the headwaters of Xsi noon and it's —  2 starts from — this water starts from the — where  3 Anmats Aiy Aiy is, and then it goes to Gwagl'lo's  4 territory, and it goes down to An Huugwasim Wijix, and  5 then it goes down to Gitsegukla.  6 MR. PLANT: Where does it go down before —  7 THE INTERPRETER:  An Huugwasim Wijix.  8 MR. GRANT:  Okay, I propose to lead this witness on this name  9 because he has given this name to me before and  10 clearly he forgets this name, but I am not going to  11 lead him as to where the name is, I'm just going to  12 ask him if he knows where the name is.  But I want to  13 say this on the record in case either counsel for the  14 defence have any objections, I would like them to  15 advise me now.  He has informed me of a name and I  16 want to — he is talking about something and there is  17 a name I want him to explain and I'll just give him  18 that name and ask him if he knows where that place is.  19 MR. PLANT:  Sure.  20 MR. GRANT:  21 Q  Gwis gyen, you had referred me when I discussed this  22 with you outside of this court, to a place called 'Wii  23 lo'op.  Do you know a place known as 'Wii lo'op?  24 A  Yes, I was up there and I know now it's — it belongs  25 to Gwagl'lo, and I was there.  26 Q  Where is 'Wii lo'op in relation to this place between'  27 Hanamuxw and Gwagl'lo that you say is so steep?  28 A  It's behind Miinhl T'ekwit.  29 Q  Okay.  Is it close to or far from this place that is  30 steep?  31 A  It's another mountain, it's not beside this one.  I  32 showed it to Neil when we went up there.  33 Q  You showed him 'Wii lo'op?  34 A  Yes.  35 Q      Yes.     And did you  show  him Miinhl   T'ekwit?  36 A      Yes,   I   showed him.  37 Q  Okay.  I would like to move to another area of your  38 evidence, Simoogit Gwis gyen, and ask you about the  39 history of Wii Hlengwax.  Now in your evidence you've  40 described the territories of many chiefs including the  41 territories of Wii Hlengwax.  Can you tell us how Wii  42 Hlengwax, where — the history of Wii Hlengwax or  43 where Wii Hlengwax came from?  44 A  I know the territories of — all the territories of  45 Wii Hlengwax and all the territories of Haalus and I  46 know where Wii Hlengwax originated from.  47 Q  Okay.  You've described the territories, can you tell 147  S. Williams (for Plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Grant  1 us about where Wii Hlengwax originated from, now?  2 A  In the beginning Haalus was the head chief of the —  3 in the Gitwingax village, and then Wii Hlengwax came  4 along who was then from Gitsilis.  He was a witchcraft  5 in his own village and they didn't want him around,  6 so — so this is the reason why he moved towards the  7 Gitwingax village.  When Wii Hlengwax moved to  8 Gitwingax, chief Gaxsbgabaxs was afraid of him because  9 he was a witchcraft, so what Gaxsbgabaxs did is he  10 moved to Gitsegukla.  11 So this is the reason why Wii Hlengwax is one of  12 the head chiefs in Gitwingax-  This happened thousands  13 of years ago, it didn't happen recently, it happened  14 thousands of years ago and my — my grandfathers told  15 me these — the story of Wii Hlengwax.  The people  16 of — in the village of Gitwingax were afraid of him  17 because he was the witchcraft and this is the reason  18 why they let him in as being a chief.  19 Q  And how did he acquire his territory? There is a  20 territory which he has that, I believe, is near the  21 Seven Sisters.  How did he acquire that territory?  22 A  Haalus gave him a part of his territory.  23 Q  And was this at the same time that — was it at the  24 time that he came up, is that when he also acquired  25 the territory at Xsugwin Biiyoosxwit?  26 A  Yes.  It's about that time when they gave him this.  27 Q  Had Gaxsbgabaxs been a chief in Gitwingax, a  28 Gitsegukla chief in Gitwingax up to that time?  29 A  Yes, he was — he was a chief at Gitwingax and that  30 name still goes on Gasa Lax Lo'obit and Xsi 'wii luu  31 hlibit.  He never did let her territory go, she still  32 has this territory at Anx maiy litsxw, the same with  33 her territory at Gasa Lax Lo'obit.  34 Q  I would like to move into another area and ask you  35 about the relationship between the Gitksan chiefs that  36 are in this court case and the Kitwancool chiefs.  37 When decisions are made about the territories, major  38 decisions about the territories of the Gitksan chiefs,  39 are the Kitwancool chiefs involved in those decisions?  40 A  There are a lot of chiefs in Kitwancool.  Wilitsxw,  41 Xamlaxyeltxw, Gwashlam, and Luuxoon, these are some of  42 the chiefs that I've mentioned, and the same with the  43 other chiefs from the other villages.  When there is a  44 discussion about territory, they discuss this in their  45 own village, and when there is a problem then all the  46 chiefs get together from the different village and  47 help each others out. 148  S. Williams (for Plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Grant  1 Q  And does this go on today?  2 A  No, it doesn't change, it still happens today.  3 Q  And do you know a history or an adaawk which describes  4 how the other Gitksan chiefs worked with the chiefs of  5 Kitwancool, when the Kitwancool chiefs were having a  6 problem?  7 A  Yes, I know.  This was thousands of years before the  8 white man came, before the guns were used, and this is  9 what I'm going to tell you now.  What they used back  10 in those days were the bows and arrows and the pole  11 with a sharp end on it, known as a spear.  The spear  12 sometimes has the horns of a goat on the end of the  13 pole, tied on the end of this pole.  These were the  14 kinds of equipment they use while they were fighting,  15 and at one time they had a war with the Ts'its'aawit  16 people.  17 The Ts'its'aawit people were nomads, they never  18 had — they never had a settlement at any place, they  19 just kept travelling on and on.  It all depends where  20 they would make a kill, this is where the Ts'its'aawit  21 would live until they've eaten all the — whatever  22 they killed, and they would move on, and they keep  23 doing this.  If they make a big kill at one spot they  24 would live here for a time — for a few number of  25 days.  26 One time they came upon the village of Kitwan'ciool"  27 which is known as Gitan'yaaw, and they raided the  28 village.  After they killed most of the people  29 there — most of the men there, they took the women  30 and children and they — and they kidnapped these  31 women and children and there was just a handful of men  32 left.  The men that were left after the Ts'its'aawit  33 people took off with the children and the women, the  34 men that were left went towards Gitwingax and they  35 came to the village of Gitwingax and they told what  36 had happened.  And they took out the bravest warriors  37 there, 'Naa gel gaa and 'Neekt were the brave warriors  38 from Gitwingax-  The nephews of 'Naa gel gaa and  39 'Neekt were brave warriors too, but they were quite  40 young, and they got these nephews of these two.  The  41 people from — the men from Kitwancool also went to  42 Gitsegukla and they took out the bravest warriors  43 there which was 'Yagaa deets and Xsuu, and they also  44 gathered their nephews who were also brave and they  45 were quite young  46 They all — 'Yagaa deets, 'Naa gel gaa, they all  47 came and went with the Kitwancool men towards ;>o;s.>;s:^>*.-o.>*.-^-v>; x - . ..-.    ...■ .. .-   .  149  S. Williams (for Plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Grant  1 Kitwancool.  They — the next day they went off to  2 have war with the Ts'its'aawit.  When they were on  3 warpath like this, what they don't do is they don't —  4 they don't drink water and this was taboo for them to  5 drink water if they are on the warpath.  6 They went towards Kitwancool and then they went —  7 they went past Kitwancool to the lake, Mezziaden Lake,  8 and 'Naa gel gaa sent about two young warriors to see  9 what — where the Ts'its'aawit were, to find where  10 they were, and this was about 20 miles over.  They  11 live on the banks of Xsi Txemsem.  12 The young warriors got to the other side of the  13 lake and they seen the smoke coming — coming from the  14 other side of the lake.  And then what they did is  15 they — they were — they ran on the ice like wolves,  16 they imitated the wolves.  And there was an elder from  17 the Ts'its'aawit, he was a Halayt, he had powers, and  18 he told his people that there was warriors coming.  19 The younger Ts'its'aawit laughed at the old Halayt,  20 saying — telling him, "Why would they come here?  21 What would they want here?"  22 The young warriors turned back to their camp along  23 the banks of the Xsi Txemsem and they told the other  24 warriors where the Ts'its'aawit had camped out.  And  25 they got ready — prepared to go, and they did go  26 until they got to the camps of the Ts'its'aawit. 'And-  27 this was at night, and they got there and they — the  28 Ts'its'aawit were all sleeping, there was a lot of  29 Ts'its'aawit and there was a lot of the Gitksan  30 people, and what they did is they surrounded the camp  31 of the Ts'its'aawit people.  The leaders were 'Naa gel  32 gaa, Xsuu, 'Yagaa deets, 'Neekt, were the leaders of  33 these young people, and they told these young warriors  34 what to do.  As soon as the — one of the leaders  3 5 would shout and tell them what to do, the young  36 warriors would do this.  They used their spears and  37 they used — some of them used their bow and arrows,  38 and they killed all the Ts'its'aawit.  Some of them  39 were still sleeping when they had the spear through  40 their chests, and some .of them still had their legs  41 up.  What they used to do, is they used to get two  42 poles standing near the fireplace and they would have  43 a pole going across, and this is where they would put  44 their legs on these poles so they — the next morning  45 their legs won't be aching.  And some of them still  46 had their legs up like this when they were — had the  47 spear through their chests. 150  S. Williams (for Plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Grant  1 The Halayt  that was  there  that  knew  that  they were  2 coming —  3 Q  Was he Ts'its'aawit?  4 A  Ts'its'aawit Halayt that said they were coming, they  5 couldn't kill — the Gitksan people couldn't kill him  6 for awhile because they would put this spear through  7 his — his heart and then the young warriors would  8 pull it out again, and what the Halayt would do is he  9 would just put his hand on his chest and rub it and  10 then the — he would be cured again.  They tried  11 killing him and they finally tired of this, so what  12 happened, 'Yagaa deets grabbed him and Xsuu cut his  13 head off and he threw it in a fire.  And they were  14 hanging onto him when this — when his head was  15 burning in the fire, and this is when he finally died  16 Behind the camp of the Ts'its'aawit they found the  17 women and children of Gitsegukla.  They were in the —  18 in a snow house.  19 Q  That was Kitwancool?  20 THE INTERPRETER:  Excuse me, I made a mistake, they're from  21 Kitwancool.  22 A  They were in a snow house that sort of looked like an  23 igloo.  How they make this house is they make it out  24 of snow and they would pour water on it until it  25 freezes, and this is the kind of house the women and  26 the children of Kitwancool were in.  The Halayt's name  27 was Ginii glai.  And the Gitksan warriors took the  28 women and the children of the Kitwancool from the  29 house, from this snow house, and there was one lady  30 there that knew the language of the Ts'its'aawit and  31 she had told what happened.  They returned these women  32 and children back to their village in Kitwancool.  33 At the Mezziaden Lake, 'Yagaa deets said he would  34 have the lower part of the lake, and Xsuu would have  35 the upper part of the lake.  And they were — they  36 were going back and they came upon a creek, and 'Naa  37 gel gaa finally took a drink.  He had his spear and he  38 threw it into the creek, he stand it into the creek  39 and he said, "I'm going to finally drink this water,  40 and this is my water." This was said by 'Naa gel gaa  41 and today that creek is known as Aks naagelgaa, which  42 means, "The water of 'Naa gel gaa."  43 After the — they got back to the Kitwancool  44 village, the people of the Gitwingax and people of  45 Gitsegukla returned home, and then after this the  46 people of Kitwancool had a feast which is known as Gil  47 ts'ek.  And this is when these warriors were paid for 151  S. Williams (for Plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Grant  1 helping them out when they were in need of help.  2 It was close to winter and Xsuu went on the  3 territory of Taas lax wii yip, and he was setting the  4 dead falls on his territory.  He came upon a bear  5 which was hibernating up on the tree, the Hemlock —  6 the Hemlock? The Hemlock tree.  And he came upon  7 this, there was a big hollow, the top was hollow and  8 this is where the bear was in and his head was  9 sticking out.  Xsuu left his arrows at the bottom, his  10 bow and his arrows at the bottom of the tree, and then  11 he just — he took his — his knife up on the tree to  12 get the bear.  While he was climbing the tree to get  13 the bear, he didn't know there was some Ts'its'aawit,  14 and he heard something so he looked and there was  15 Ts'its'aawit surrounding Xsuu.  He wasn't afraid.  He  16 got down from the tree and he took his bow and arrows  17 and he was ready to shoot the Ts'its'aawit people.  18 When he — he pulled the bow too far back and the  19 string — the bow broke.  And — when he was going to  20 shoot the Ts'its'aawit people.  And this is how he was  21 killed by the Ts'its'aawit people.  22 After 'Yagaa deets found out that Xsuu was killed  23 by the Ts'its'aawit people, he felt bad and he said,  24 "I am not going to claim that lake that I claimed  25 before with Xsuu."  26 Q  This was Mezziaden Lake?  27 A  Yes.  And the reason why Wilitsxw has that territory  28 today, was because the women and the children that  29 were kidnapped were mostly from Wilitsxw's house.  And  30 this is how the people of Gitwingax and Gitsegukla  31 helped the people of Kitwancool.  Whenever there is a  32 problem with their territory where they need help, we  33 always go out and help each others.  34 And just recently, Fred Good announced that a  3 5 white person is not supposed to shoot a moose on  36 Cranberry or at Gitwingax or at Gitsegukla.  They  37 forbid any person to go at Cranberry, which is known  38 as Xsi yaga skit, to use that territory for any kind  39 of resources or for shooting animals.  I was at the  40 meeting when they called a meeting about this, and  41 this is where Fred announced this, when I went to the  42 meeting.  I was at this meeting and after the meeting  43 I was sitting beside Fred Good, he was sitting like  44 where Mr. Grant is sitting right now, and I was  45 sitting where I am sitting, and he asked me if our  46 meeting was a success.  He asked me if the meeting was  47 all right, and I said, "It is good that you people 152  S. Williams (for Plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Grant  1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  MR. GRANT:  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  MR. GRANT:  33  Q  34  35  36  37  A  38  39  40  41  Q  42  A  43  44  Q  45  A  46  Q  47  MR. PLANT:  have meetings, but what about the blood of 'Yagaa  deets and Xsuu, 'Naa gel gaa and 'Neekt, what about  the blood of their nephews?"  I asked Fred, "What  compensation have you paid 'Naa gel gaa and 'Neekt and  'Yagaa deets and Xsuu, how much did you — how much  did you spend paying these persons?" Fred answered me  back and he said, "It was paid right after the war  with the Ts'its'aawit, the materials were given out to  the people that went with the Kitwancool." And I went  and I told Fred, "We do not want materials, we may  have to settle for a piece of a territory, and then  anything that is worth — worthwhile, anything that is  good." And he never answered me after this.  I mentioned this to Peter Williams when this court  was going to start, that they would support us.  And  what he told me, that they had their own territories  to look after, and that they would look after it  themselves at another time.  I asked Mr. Williams why  he — he would not give his support to us as we are  having problems trying to fight for our territories,  like in the ancient times, 'Yagaa deets and Xsuu  helped them out when the Ts'its'aawit were on the  warpath with the Kitwancool people.  He never answered  me after I asked him this.  That's the end.  Okay.  I have a few questions to ask you, but given  the length of your answer it may be reasonable for the  reporter to have a break.  We'll adjourn now.  (PROCEEDINGS ADJOURNED AT 11:30 a.m.)  (PROCEEDINGS RECONVENED AT 11:40 a.m.)  I just like to ask you a few questions about what you  were describing.  Can you tell me what house was  'Neekt — did 'Neekt, 'Naa gel gaa, 'Yagaa deets and  Xsuu belong to — or what houses did they belong to?  'Naa gel gaa was from the house of Sakxum higookx, and  'Neekt was from the house of Haalus, and 'Yagaa deets  was from the house of Gwis gyen in Gitsegukla, and  Xsuu was from the house of Guxsan in Gitsegukla.  Who taught you this history of the Ts'its'aawit wars?  My grandfather told me and Luuxoon told me when I was  with him.  When you say your grandfather?  Gwis gyen.  Gwis gyen, Sam Gwis gyen.  My grandfather Gwis gyen and Luuxoon? 153  S. Williams (for Plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Grant  1 THE INTERPRETER:  Uh-huh.  2 MR. GRANT:  3 Q  That was the answer.  4 Is this history what you would refer to as an  5 adaawk?  6 A  It's the adaawk of the wars between Kitwancool and  7 Ts'its'aawit.  8 Q  Um-hmm?  9 A  It was not for me to tell this adaawk, but since —  10 since I was asked by you people, I had to tell this  11 adaawk.  I could not tell the adaawk of the  12 territories, it's not for me to tell the adaawks.  I  13 know the boundaries of the territories that I have  14 talked about.  I was trained by so many different  15 elders, I was trained on their territories and when  16 they were showing me their boundaries, so I know a lot  17 of adaawks that go with the territories, but it isn't  18 for me to say the adaawks of these territories that I  19 have talked about.  It belongs to the chiefs of  20 that — of who owns the territories.  Their adaawk is  21 held in their house — houses, and I have my own  22 adaawk in my own house.  23 Q  You said before that 'Yagaa deets was from your house.  24 Can you and your grandfather describe the adaawk or  25 part of the adaawk of the wars, because 'Yagaa deets*  26 from your house was involved in that war?  27 A  Yes, that's the reason why I told the adaawk, because  28 'Yagaa deets was in my house.  And also, 'Yagaa deets  2 9 was a famous person.  All the braves that I've  30 mentioned, these people were all famous because they  31 were known throughout the country of how brave they  32 were and how — how they will always fight off and  33 protect our villages, our surrounding villages.  And  34 the people from — from the coastal area know who  35 'Yagaa deets was because he was such a brave warrior  36 and he was strong.  These warriors were widely known  37 and they were famous back in those days, in the  38 ancient days.  39 Q  Are you finished?  40 Just, you referred to Aks naagelgaa.  41 THE INTERPRETER:  I forgot, I missed out one.  42 A  And they were — these warriors were also looked as  43 they were — they were looked up to as they look up to  44 the — to the head chiefs.  They were treated like  45 head chiefs because they were so brave and they  46 protected the villages.  47 Q  You referred to Aks naagelgaa in this adaawk.  Do you 154  S. Williams (for Plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Grant  1 know where that place is?  2 A  Yes, I know where it is.  3 Q  And in whose territory is that today?  4 A  It belongs to Xamlaxyeltxw.  Today it's still known as  5 Aks naagelgaa.  6 Q  Now this battle that you described, did it occur on  7 the shore of Mezziaden Lake?  8 A  Yes.  Yes, it's on the other side of the banks of the  9 lake, Mezziaden.  10 Q  When you say "the other side", that's the side that  11 is — if you are on the —  12 A  Further.  13 Q  Further side, towards Stewart side of Mezziaden Lake?  14 A  Yes.  15 Q  Yes.  Was it on the end of Mezziaden Lake closer to  16 Kitwancool or further north?  17 A  From Gitwingax it's about hundred and twenty miles.  18 Q  Now you've referred to — you referred to a meeting  19 with Fred Good.  Fred Good is now deceased, but he was  20 a chief of the Kitwancool; is that right?  21 A  Yes, that's the Kitwancool chief.  22 Q  Now after you asked him about the blood of the people  23 of Gitwingax and Gitsegukla, did he and the other  24 Kitwancool chiefs say anything about whether the  25 Gitsegukla and Gitwingax people could use their  26 territory?  27 A  He said at the meeting that the — the people of  28 Gitwingax and Gitsegukla were not to trespass on that  29 Cranberry which is known Xsi yaga skit, and also the  30 white people could not trespass on this.  I asked him  31 about — I brought his attention to what happened in  32 the ancient times, and he did change his mind.  He —  33 he opened this territory for the people of Gitwingax  34 and Gitsegukla.  35 MR. PLANT:  I didn't hear that last sentence.  36 MS. KOENIGSBERG:  I didn't either.  37 A  He opened — he let the people of Gitsegukla and  38 Gitwingax on this territory.  3 9    MR. GRANT:  40 Q  I'm showing you a genealogical chart dated January  41 12th, 1988, which is six pages long.  We've referred  42 in evidence to some of the information on this chart,  43 but do you remember going over that chart with me  44 yesterday in my office?  45 A  I know all that.  46 Q  Does — and what — was that genealogical chart — or  47 is this genealogical chart that's in front of you, is 155  S. Williams (for Plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Grant  1 it — and the one we went over yesterday, is it  2 correct?  3 A  Yes, it's correct.  4 Q  And does it show all of the members of your house,  5 including some members who are deceased, and the  6 spouses, that is the husbands or wives of those  7 members?  8 A  Yes.  9 MR. GRANT:  I would ask that this document be marked as the next  10 exhibit.  I think it's Exhibit 6.  11  12 (EXHIBIT 6 FOR IDENTIFICATION - Genealogical Chart of  13 Stanley Williams dd. January 12, 1988)  14  15 MR. PLANT:  Mr. Grant, my colleague, Miss Sigurdson, brought to  16 my attention the fact that on page 1 of Exhibit 6  17 there is at least one change from the genealogy that  18 was sent over to us.  19 MR. GRANT:  I'm going to be dealing with those changes.  20 MR. PLANT:  All right.  21 MR. GRANT:  But possibly we can adjourn now.  It's twelve  22 o'clock, we'll adjourn until after lunch.  23 MR. PLANT:  Oh, I see.  24 A  I would like to hold a court after this is finished.  25 I would like to hold a court and use our Gitksan law .  26 and then I'll ask all you lawyers the questions that •"  27 you've been asking me.  28 MR. GRANT:  Okay.  Well, we'll adjourn, then, until after lunch.  29  30 (PROCEEDINGS ADJOURNED AT 12:00 p.m.)  31 (PROCEEDINGS RECONVENED AT 1:15 p.m.)  32  33 MR. GRANT:  34 Q  I'm referring you to Exhibit 6 which is — which you  35 have in front of you, the genealogy of the house of  36 Gwis gyen.  And on the first page of that it shows  37 that Philip Turner and George Turner who were the  38 children of Irene Harris have been adopted out of your  39 house; is that correct?  40 A  Yup.  41 Q       And what house are  they  in now,   Philip and George  42 Turner?  43 A  In the house of Yal.  44 Q  Okay.  Underneath Ken Harris there is a reference to  45 Bruce Harris, Stewart and Melanie Harris.  Were those  46 people adopted by Ken Harris into your house?  47 A  Yes, that's his own children. ,W;:.NN;.;.>;.S;;;.:,.,!.:.S;,S!.S;.s-.s;..-.<-!.;;.^.'.;.NN/.;.■>>,:; .,..■.-,. .-.  . .  •. ....,::,....   ..■..■■.-.. ..•....-.....■   156  S. Williams (for Plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Grant  1 Q  And —  2 A  He adopted them himself and that's his own children.  3 Q  And they are — are they members of your house now?  4 A  Um-hmm.  5 Q  Yes? Okay.  Now, you remember an interrogatory, that  6 is a series of questions asked by the government  7 lawyers of you, which one of the questions was the  8 members of your house, and you signed an affidavit  9 about that about a year ago, January?  10 A  Yes, I remember.  11 Q  January 30th, in fact.  Now, if — okay.  I refer you  12 to the second page of Exhibit 6 and there is a  13 reference there to Sylvia Harris.  Just a moment.  14 MR. PLANT:  Second page of what.  15 MR. GRANT:  Exhibit 6, I said.  16 MR. PLANT:  I'm sorry.  17 MR. GRANT:  18 Q  Is that Sylvia Harris the same person as you refer to  19 in your interrogatory as Sylvia Johnson? You have  20 Sylvia Johnson and there is another word, this is in  21 the list of — the list of the interrogatory, and it  22 says G_a — Gaagim looks, drift away?  23 A  Sylvia Johnson is Ronnie Johnson's wife.  I adopted  24 her into my house.  25 Q  Okay.  And so she is not shown on Exhibit 6 but she >  26 should be on your genealogy; is that right?  27 A  Um-hmm.  28 Q  Okay.  29 MS. KOENIGSBERG:  Where would she be?  30 MR. GRANT:  31 Q  Well, he says — you adopted her yourself, is that  32 right?  33 A  Yeah.  34 Q  So she should be on — Exhibit 6 she should be under  35 Gwis gyen, a dotted line under Gwis gyen with a  36 reference to circle and Sylvia Johnson.  That's on —  37 I propose to mark that in on the exhibit and it will  38 be marked in by hand but it will be in.  39 MR. PLANT:  On what, on page 4?  40 MR. GRANT:  41 Q  Page 4, dotted line under Stanley's name, circle, and  42 Sylvia Johnson.  This Exhibit 6 right now is loose.  I  43 propose that I will be — that what I will do is I  44 will — I will staple it together, and for the record  45 it has got six pages, so that it won't get lost or  46 misplaced.  47 Now I refer you to page 3 of Exhibit 6, and :Mii}»;i>;?;S;*.-;KS.s.>o.s: .,•*•*.-. > .-.  157  S. Williams (for Plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Grant  1 underneath Brenda and Stanley Wesley, Brenda being the  2 daughter of Maziel Harris, there are two children,  3 Alvin Wesley and Irene Wesley, and those are children  4 in your house, those children are in your house?  5 A  Yes.  6 Q  Is that right? Now I've been instructed that they may  7 not have been on the list of house members in your  8 genealogy — in your interrogatory as of January 30th,  9 1987.  Have you just forgotten those two children's  10 names when you — when that list was prepared by you?  11 A  If they are living in Vancouver and they told me  12 these — these children were living in Vancouver and  13 this is the reason why I — I've never seen these  14 children yet.  15 Q  Okay.  But they are members of your house?  16 A  But they are members of the house.  17 Q  And just on page 4, you had referred in evidence last  18 week that the three children of Eva Fowler and Abraham  19 Fowler were Maria, Richard and Marianne; is that  20 right? And I just note that the name Marian, "N"  21 should be taken off of that on page 4.  And I've so  22 marked the exhibit as the witness's evidence.  23 MS. KOENIGSBERG:  Which Marianne?  24 MR. GRANT:  Under Eva Fowler.  25 THE INTERPRETER:  The first.  26 MR. GRANT:  The first one, Marian.  27 MS. KOENIGSBERG:  Marian?  28 THE INTERPRETER:  Maria not Marian.  29 MR. PLANT: Well, is Maria the mother of the late James Fowler?  30 Or was Maria the mother of the late James Fowler?  31 MR. GRANT:  32 Q  Maria was the mother of the late James Fowler?  33 A  Yes.  34 MR. PLANT:  So it's really just a typographical error —  35 MR. GRANT:  It's a typo, yeah.  36 MR. PLANT:  — rather than strike out the whole name?  37 MR. GRANT:  38 Q  Yeah.  I just say take out the "N" so it's Maria.  39 There was a typographical error there.  40 Just for the record, on page 5 there is another  41 typographical error that's not on Exhibit 6, but on  42 the — if you are going to be referring to your  43 interrogatory list, on the second page is a name  44 Angela Bright.  That was a typo and should be Angelo  45 Bright who is referred to on Exhibit 5 — or page 5 of  46 Exhibit 6.  I'm not going to bother going through that  47 with the witness. 158  S. Williams (for Plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Grant  1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Now, I just wish to refer you to one other person  on Exhibit 6, and this is one of the children of Nora  who married Joshua Campbell.  Now that's referred to  on page 5, actually, and Joshua Campbell, he just died  a few weeks ago, was that right?  Um-hmm, yeah.  You referred to his funeral feast a few weeks ago.  (WITNESS NODS HEAD IN RESPONSE)  Now you have listed the children on here and their  spouses.  Earl Campbell is one of the children of Nora  and Joshua; is that right?  Yup.  And Earl is a member of your house?  Um-hmm.  MS. KOENIGSBERG:  Sorry, could I just get that clear.  rt shows  on page 6 of the exhibit, right, Earl Campbell?  MR. GRANT:  Um-hmm.  MS. KOENIGSBERG:  Is it just that, it's not on the  interrogatory?  MR. GRANT: Well it might not be on the interrogatory.  MS. KOENIGSBERG:  I just wonder why you pointed it out.  MR. GRANT:  Q  Yeah, it may not be on the interrogatory.  And just for the record, on the interrogatories,  Schedule A, there is a list of names ending in  S-O-R-D-Z.  I'm instructed that that's again a  typographical error in transcription.  The name is  Sorge — Sorge, S-O-R — Sorge, S-O-R-G-E instead of  S-O-R-D-Z.  And the seventh name down on that list, James  Stewart should be James Smart.  Again, it was a  transcription error.  Gwis gyen, I would like to ask you if you attended  a feast with the Nishga at Canyon City regarding the  boundaries between the Nishga and the Kitwancool and  the Nishga and the other Gitksan chiefs?  No, I didn't attend it.  Did you go to Canyon City a few years ago and there  were a number of Nishga chiefs there?  I was at that meeting.  Okay.  And do you recall which Nishga chiefs were at  that meeting and where they were from?  I know the chief Jimmy Gosnel.  He took — he took his  grandfather's name, the name Dim Xsaan.  The one  passed on, his name was Titus, and his chief name was  'Niis 'Yook.  Some of the people that were present I  did not know their chief names.  I've never been to  A  Q  A  Q 159  S. Williams (for Plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Grant  1 their feast, I've never attended their feast in  2 Aiyansh.  3 MR. PLANT: Was that feast or feasts?  4 THE INTERPRETER:  Feasts.  5 MR. GRANT:  6 Q  You've never been to a Nishga feast?  7 A  No.  8 MR. GRANT:  Okay.  Just I want to go off the record for a  9 moment, please.  10 MR. PLANT:  All right.  11 MS. KOENIGSBERG:  You have my permission too.  12 (OFF THE RECORD DISCUSSION)  13 MR. GRANT:  For the record, I called an adjournment shortly  14 after — or about 20 minutes after we started this  15 afternoon because I noted that the witness didn't  16 appear to be feeling well.  And on checking with the  17 witness, apparently over lunch he wasn't feeling well,  18 and I don't want to proceed although the witness  19 initially indicated he would make every effort.  I  20 don't want to proceed and push Gwis gyen, given his —  21 if he is not feeling well.  22 So by consent, we've all agreed to adjourn it  23 over, hopefully there is nothing serious wrong and we  24 can start again tomorrow morning.  And I will advise  25 counsel for the province who will correspond with  26 counsel for Canada if — either tonight or tomorr6w  27 morning about the scheduled time to start tomorrow.  28  2 9 (PROCEEDINGS ADJOURNED AT 1:45 p.m.)  30  31 I hereby certify the foregoing to be  32 a true and accurate transcript of the  33 proceedings herein transcribed to the  34 best of my skill and ability.  35  36  37  38    39 Toni Kerekes,  40 O.R. , R. P.R.  41 United Reporting Service Ltd.  42  43  44  45  46  47 160  S. Williams (for Plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Grant  1 April 19, 1988  2 Hazelton, B.C.  3  4 (PROCEEDINGS RECONVENED AT 10:15 a.m.)  5  6 ALICE SAMPSON:  Previously sworn as interpreter.  7 STANLEY WILLIAMS:  Previously sworn.  8  9    EXAMINATION IN CHIEF CONT. BY MR. GRANT:  10 Q  It's Tuesday, April 19th, 10:15, and we have  11 recommenced the — or recommencing the commission  12 evidence which was adjourned yesterday afternoon.  13 This is the sixth day of the commission evidence of  14 Stanley Williams, and both the witness and the  15 interpreter understand that you are under oath?  16 A  Yes.  17 Q  Both nodding affirmatively.  18 Gwis gyen, I would like to return to what we were  19 discussing yesterday afternoon before we adjourned,  20 and I asked you whether or not you recall attending a  21 meeting at Canyon City with a number of Nishga chiefs  22 in which there was discussions between the Nishga  23 chiefs and the Gitksan chiets, including yourself,  24 regarding the boundaries between the Nishga and the  25 Gitksan and the Nishga and the Kitwancool.  You  26 indicated that you didn't recall that meeting, arid I"  27 wanted to ask you what Nishga villages were  28 represented at that meeting?  29 A  Yesterday, Grant asked me if I attended a feast with  30 the Nishgas and I said I didn't attend a feast.  I  31 was — I attended a meeting, not a feast.  I attended  32 this meeting with the Nishgas — Nishgas at the Canyon  33 City.  There was people from Kincoolith, Greenville,  34 Aiyansh, and I was there and Mary McKenzie was there  35 who was from Gitan'maaxs.  The reason why we were  36 called together, why we had this meeting was there was  37 the overlap of the territories.  As the people were  38 entering the feast hall, their names, their chief  39 names were called out as they were entering.  As they  40 enter the feast house, as all of them were — the  41 people of — already in the feast house, they have had  42 a table in front where — where the high chiefs of the  43 Kincoolith, Greenville, Aiyansh and Canyon City were  44 seated at.  There was eight of these chiefs seated in  45 front.  Rod Robinson opened with a prayer before the  46 meeting got started.  After they were all settled and  47 ready to go, a chief from — a chief from Greenville i i^^-.^-.-oOsJi'Oov^'^^.-oo.^-i^-os^s;^,;,,^,;^^^^^".'^.^'.-;''^^ ..;>;>. XiTiZtt  ....■..».....,,..-.^. .-.■■. .-.,,.. ; ..-vt^ttvt;  161  S. Williams (for Plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Grant  1 started talking and he said he was going to tell his  2 adaawk.  They call this adaawk.  He started what he  3 called his adaawk and I know the — when he started  4 this — this so-called adaawk, I know it was just a  5 story, it wasn't an adaawk.  6 Q  Was there a Gitksan name for what type of story it is?  7 A  It's — bedtime story is called ant'imahlasxw.  8 Q  And this is what this was, ant'imahlasxw?  9 A  Yes.  After the first person that was telling the  10 story, after he told a part of it, then another chief  11 would stand up and tell another part.  And they all  12 took turns telling a part of the story until all of  13 them told the end of the story, the eight chiefs that  14 were sitting in front.  And that was the same story  15 which was known as a Txemsim.  They said this — this  16 was their adaawk, because this is known as the  17 Txemsim, the story that they just told.  18 They — after they finished with the story, they  19 called a chief from this area, the Skeena area, and  20 this person — I forget who it was, but this person  21 stood up and talked.  There was people from other  22 villages that stood up and talked, and Neil was  23 present at this meeting.  24 After the visitors had finished their talking,  25 then I was called up to give a speech.  I went to the-  26 front and I — I greeted the visitors and the people •"  27 of the Nishga.  I told them that I know their adaawk  28 and that they missed a part out and I would finish it  29 for them.  I've asked them to listen closely and to  30 pay attention, and that I would end the story for  31 them, and I — the part that they missed out.  So I  32 started off, like, which they missed out when  33 Txemsim's sister — Txemsim's sister got sick.  I  34 started off telling them what Txemsim did, that when  35 his sister was sick, he walked over to his sister and  36 he told his sister, "I know where — where you could  37 get a remedy for your sickness.  It's — it's up on  38 the swamp."  3 9   MR. PLANT:  On the swamp?  40 A  Swamp.  "It's up on the swamp behind the village."  41 Txemsim told his sister — gave his sister  42 instructions and told her what to do — to do when she  43 went towards the swamp.  And after he told — he gave  44 instructions, he went running up the swamp himself.  45 These were the instructions of Txemsim:  "You will get  46 to the — to the swamp and then you will — you will  47 holler haldaakxws," which means, "Medicine, where are 162  S. Williams (for Plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Grant  1 you?" And then the medicine will answer you.  2 MR. PLANT:  The medicine will after you?  3 MR. GRANT:  4 Q  Answer you.  5 A  Answer you, "Ooooh." When you get to the swamp you —  6 well, what — what Txemsim did, was he went to the  7 swamp and he dug up the — he hid under the moss at  8 the swamp and he covered himself, and he told his  9 sister that — before he left, he said, "When — when  10 you get there, take all your clothes off, and you  11 will — you will see the — something sticking up, and  12 you will sit on it and you will move back and forth."  13 So this is what Txemsim's sister did, she took her  14 clothes off and she — she seen this thing sticking up  15 and she sat on it and she moved back and forth.  And  16 not very long after that, Txemsim just got up and put  17 his arms around the waist of his own sister.  18 This was the adaawk of the Nishgas, and this —  19 this is — I finished this adaawk for them, and after  20 I was through with this adaawk, everybody was just  21 laughing in the hall.  22 Q  At Canyon City?  23 A  At Canyon City.  After they quieted down, I told them  24 that I — I would talk to them about — about why the  25 meet — why we are having a meeting.  I would talk to  26 them about the reason why we are having a meeting!  27 All of the simgigyet, all of them have — have laws to  28 follow, and Dim Xsaan has that law to follow too, and  29 Dim Xsaan was Jimmy Gosnel.  Dim Xsaan is the high  30 chief of the Nishgas and whatever he says they do.  He  31 erected a pole near — near the creek called Xsi  32 Ts'uuts'wit.  33 Q  Just a moment.  I just want to be clear before you go  34 on.  Is this when — when you are referring to "he  35 erected a pole", are you referring to Jimmy Gosnel?  36 Okay.  Who held the name Dim Xsaan?  37 A  Dim Xsaan.  38 Q  Dim Xsaan?  39 A  Yeah.  40 Q  And the present holder of that name is Jimmy Gosnel?  41 A  Now, yeah.  42 Q  Okay.  I'm sorry, go ahead.  43 MS. KOENIGSBERG:  I just want to make sure I'm clear.  I thought  44 I was hearing the same chief name, Txemsim, as in the  45 story.  That's a different name?  46 MR. GRANT:  Yes.  Just for the record, any persons' names or  47 anything like that. Fern will be giving you the 163  S. Williams (for Plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Grant  1 different spellings of those.  2 MS. KOENIGSBERG:  There's no problem with that, just a problem  3 with following who we are talking about.  4 MR. GRANT:  Yeah, sure.  That's good, that's good.  5 MR. PLANT:  My note is incomplete.  There was a pole erected  6 near a creek and there was — my note is that at the  7 moment it was erected by someone who held the name Dim  8 Xsaan.  9 MR. GRANT:  That's right.  10 MR. PLANT: But not Jimmy Gosnel.  11 MR. GRANT:  No.  12 THE  INTERPRETER:     No.  13 MR.   GRANT:     An  earlier   one.  14 MR.   PLANT:     An  earlier  one.     And  I  don't have  the name  of   the  15 creek.  16 MR. GRANT:  That will be provided by Ms. Stevens.  17 MR. PLANT:  Thank you.  18 MR. GRANT:  19 Q  So if you can just go ahead, Mr. Williams?  20 A  After he — he erected this pole, he put his — one of  21 his crests on top of the pole which was known as  22 Hlgimadaa soox-  23 THE TRANSLATOR:  768 on my list.  24 A  It was made out of stone.  25 MR. GRANT:  26 Q  Go ahead.  27 A  After he erected this pole with — with the stone  28 carving on top, he held a feast, and at that feast he  29 said, "This is a serious — a serious feast and we  30 have a boundary for the — for the Kitwancool and for  31 the Nishgas — Nishgas." This — nobody would  32 trespass over this boundary to the Kitwancool side,  33 and nobody from Kitwancool would trespass on the  34 Nishga side.  Dim Xsaan had his boundary, the boundary  35 between the Nishga and the Kitwancool, Dim Xsaan has  36 his boundary on the Nishga side and on the Kitwancool  37 side it's Luuxoon and Ts'iiwa.  38 The creek that runs — that runs as a boundary  39 belongs to Luuxoon and Ts'iiwa and the name of this  40 creek is Gins — Gins xhoux.  And there is a lake  41 there which is known as T'aam Gins xhoux.  This is  42 where the creek comes from.  The lake is close to the  43 mountain and this is where the water — the creek  44 comes from, and it goes down and then at the bottom  45 this belongs to the Nishgas known as Alice arm.  46 Q  Just go — it's okay, you can go along without the  47 geographical points. 164  S. Williams (for Plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Grant  1 A  Gwashlam also has a boundary and also Yal, he has a  2 boundary which is known as Gwin hlakxw.  And there is  3 a mountain behind this boundary which is known as Gwin  4 Sdi'moon.  The Nishgas named this mountain of Gwin  5 Sdi'moon.  Gwin hlakxw belongs to Yal and this is —  6 further up the — this is where Gyehl 'Din is.  The —  7 this territory belongs to Kitwancool and Gyehl 'Din  8 belongs to Kitwancool.  Tooxensxw is the rightful  9 owner of Gyehl 'Din even today.  10 MR. PLANT:  I don't have that name.  11 MR. GRANT:  Tooxensxw.  12 THE INTERPRETER:  Tooxensxw.  13 THE TRANSLATOR:  It's 64 on the plaintiffs' list  14 A  There is three tributaries of — from Gwin Sdi'moon,  15 there is a creek further up, Xsi win luu yaaxw is the  16 one further up.  And the other one down from Xsi win  17 luu yaaxw, this is known as sisooJs. — Xsa'an sisook,.  18 After this there is the third creek which is known as  19 Xsa'an T'ahl Gaak.  20 MR. PLANT:  I'm going to have to ask to stop, because I want to  21 make sure I get the creeks in the right order.  I have  22 the first — thank you.  23 MR. GRANT:  24 Q  Okay, go ahead.  25 A  I — after I told him about these boundaries, I told'  26 him that I've travelled with my — with some of the "'  27 elders on these territories.  With Luuxoon I travelled  28 at Gins xhoox, and I travelled with my uncles, I  29 travelled with my father on his territory —  30 territories, and this is why I know where the  31 boundaries are.  Wixa told me about these territories,  32 that — this is not my mother's father, this is the —  33 the Wixa after my grandfather.  I think Morris  34 Williams is the Wixa today.  He knows the adaawk of  35 the territory that I was talking about, and I can't  36 tell anyone about his adaawk, it has to come from Wixa  37 himself.  3 8 After I told him this, then Frank Calder jumped up  39 and he said, "All the waters that are — that are  40 going into — all the waters that are flowing from  41 that mountain into Nass River, these are our  42 territories."  Frank Calder was sitting about ten  43 feet from where I was, and after he had said this, I  44 told him, I said, "Frank, why are you talking about  45 the Nishga territories? Your territory is in  46 Gitsegukla, you are in the house of Guxsan, this is  47 where your territory is." I told him, "If you want to 165  S. Williams (for Plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Grant  1 go on your territory, then you would have to come and  2 talk to your house members and to your chief in  3 Gitsegukla." Frank never answered back.  He — he  4 took off out through the door and he never returned  5 again.  6 Then Herbert Morvin jumped up and I — I was  7 talking about the — the waters that come from Gwin  8 Sdi'moon, and it belongs to — this was Yal's  9 territory.  And Herbert Morvin jumped up and he said,  10 "This man is talking about our territory." And I told  11 Herbert, I said, "Herbert, you're — you know that you  12 and my wife are from the same house, and your terri-  13 tory is in Gitan'maaxs, and your house is  14 Luutkudziiwas house."  15 Q  Just a moment.  In translation did he say that you and  16 my wife are from the same house or same clan?  17 THE INTERPRETER:  Close, they are close. Well, is it the same  18 house and they are — I guess they are.  19 MR. GRANT:  20 Q  Okay.  How do you know that Herbert Morvin is from the  21 house of Luutkudziiwas?  22 A  Because uncle always talking about my —  23 Q  Is —  24 A  Cutford Morvin was the uncle of Herbert Morvin, and he  25 used to have my wife and he told — he told my wife <  26 that he knows where he is from.  27 Q  And where was he from, Cutford Morvin?  28 A  And he is from Luutkudziiwas house in Gitan'maaxs.  29 Q  Before you go on, you said at one point just now that  30 your wife and he were from the same house.  You  31 indicated last week that your wife was from the house  3 2 of Haalus.  Is — when you say they are close or they  33 are from the same house, are you referring to they are  34 from the same wii 'na t'ahl?  35 A  Them — Cutford are from Luutkudziiwas' house and my  36 wife was from Luutkudziiwas' house.  When we first got  37 married, she was adopted into Haalus' house.  It is a  38 very — very serious thing when the adoption is going  39 on.  It is taking a person out of another chief's  40 house and taking him into another chief's house, and  41 this is very serious with us because we — when this  42 happens, we owe them a feast.  And we — we've spent  43 so much money on this, we spent so much materials and  44 so much food when this adoption is being done.  In the  45 ancient days what they used for money was the hide of  46 the ground hog which was known as Gwiikxw.  And they  47 would use the hides of fisher which was given to the 166  S. Williams (for Plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Grant  1 high chiefs.  This was how my mother was adopted.  My  2 grandmother was from Gitsegukla and when my mother got  3 old enough she married — when my grandmother got old  4 enough she married Wixa from Gitsegukla, and then she  5 had my mother and she had Solomon, Solomon Bryant's  6 mother, and —  7 Q  Richard Fowler?  8 A  Richard Fowler's mother, and these are the daughters  9 that she had.  My mother was the youngest one.  Sakxum  10 higookx and his wife didn't have any children, so they  11 came up to Kitwancool to ask my grandmother to adopt  12 my mother.  They asked my grandparent's permission if  13 they could adopt my mother, and so they did, they did  14 adopt my mother and they took her back to Gitwingax-  15 They had — they had a big feast after this, because  16 my mother was living under the roof of Wixa, and she  17 was adopted into — into Sakxum higookx's wife's  18 house.  19 After the — after the death of my mother's  20 father, this was when she was already married to my  21 father.  After the death of my grandfather, Wixa, my  22 mother travelled back to Kitwancool and she paid the  23 expenses of the funeral.  After she — her father  24 died, she paid all the expenses of the funeral, then  25 they announced, because of the expenses she had spent"  26 they announced in the feast hall that they would give---  27 her a piece of a territory which was known as Txaas  28 'wii lax habaasxw.  29 My — after my mom — my mother passed — passed  30 on, I spent a lot of money at the feast.  I spent a  31 lot of money and my mother's chief name was Bilaatx.  32 After — during this feast, after the expenses were  33 paid, I stood up in the feast hall and I announced  34 that my mother's work with Wixa, her living with Wixa  3 5 and looking after them, I — I told the people that  36 her work was done with Wixa and that the territory  37 that was given to her because of Wixa, would be  38 returned now back to the rightful owners.  39 And to this day, I still got the blood of Wixa in  40 me, and I still got the blood of Wii'mugulsxw in me,  41 and this is — this is why the people recognize me and  42 they — they know me and this is why they let — I  43 sometimes go on the different territories up at  44 Kitwancool.  But I always ask permission from the head  45 chief if I — if I'm going to go on the territory.  46 Q  If Herbert Morvin was adopted by the Nishga under  47 Gitksan law, could he take the Luutkudziiwas territory 167  S. Williams (for Plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Grant  1 with him?  2 A  No, it's just impossible.  He could not take the  3 territory or he could not move a totem-pole.  I could  4 not take the crest and use it in — at — during the  5 Nishga feasts.  6 Q  Before you were talking about adoptions, you talked  7 about the pole that the earlier Dim Xsaan had put up  8 with the crest on the top.  Have you been to that  9 place where that pole was erected, yourself?  10 A  This happened thousands of years ago when he erected  11 this pole, and I'm only 80 years old, but I've —  12 they've showed me where it was.  13 Q  Who showed you?  14 A  Luuxoon, Chief Luuxoon.  15 Q  And were — did Luuxoon or someone else tell you what  16 happened to this pole with the crest on top?  17 A  I'll tell you about it.  Dim Xsaan really wanted to  18 protect this pole and his crest, and when the people  19 of — the Hagwilget people, Kispiox, Gitan'maaxs,  20 Gitwingax* they travelled down to get some — to make  21 some oolichan grease.  And the people of Kitwancool —  22 and when they started travelling, there was a man  23 from — a young man from Hagwilget.  This was in — in  24 the winter, they started travelling towards the Nass.  25 This would be about March because this is when the  26 oolichans run at the Nass.  As they got closer to'the'  27 boundary line where the pole and the stone figure was,  28 known as Hlgimadaa sook, the young man from Hagwilget  29 looked up and he laughed at this crest, the stone  30 figure on top of this pole, and he — he took a stick  31 and he pushed it down, and the — the stone fell.  Dim  3 2 Xsaan found out who made fun of his crest and the  33 pole, and as they arrived to the village of the Nass,  34 Dim Xsaan took his spear and he knew this young person  35 from Hagwilget was in — in this certain house, and he  36 went in and he — he stabbed him on the chest with the  37 spear.  There was no hard feelings between the people  38 of Hagwilget and the people of the Nishga, because  39 this young man had broken the law.  He should have  40 never done that.  And what happened is the people —  41 some of the people from Hagwilget came and they picked  42 the body up and they left without confronting the  43 Nishga people.  44 I know two incidents about — about what happened.  45 This happened — this incident again happened in —  46 near Tenimgyet's boundary, between Tenimgyet's  47 boundary and the Nishga boundary, and this is known as 168  S. Williams (for Plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Grant  1 Luuts'uutsxw — Git axsol, and — and the white people  2 call it Sand Lake.  There was a trespasser that went  3 onto Nishga territory, and this trespasser was killed  4 and put back into the — into the lake, and the people  5 of Tenimgyet's took the body and never said anything  6 because they know that he was trespassing.  7 Q  Have you been to Git axsol or Sand Lake yourself?  8 A  Yes, I've been there.  I spent a night on the island.  9 Q  And is that the island known as Lax lilbax in the  10 middle of that lake?  11 A  Lilbax, that's what they call it.  The island is known  12 as Lax lilbax.  13 Q  And have you — is that lake within Tenimgyet's  14 territory?  15 A  Tenimgyet's territory is a little past Lax lilbax and  16 then it goes up.  17 Q  When you say "a little past Lax lilbax", it includes  18 Sand Lake as part of the territory?  19 A  Yeah.  20 Q  Maybe Madam Interpreter can translate this, but you  21 gave a name of the crest that the Nishga chief put on  22 top of this eight foot pole.  What does that name  23 mean? I think it's — Hlgimadaa sook_.  24 THE INTERPRETER:  I know, I know.  25 A  Hlgimadaa sook..  26 MR. GRANT:  27 Q  What does that name mean?  28 A  The eggs of the nightingale.  29 Q  All right.  Was that pole that Dim Xsaan put there,  30 was that on — right on the trail between the Gitksan  31 and the Nishga, and the Kitwancool and the Nishga?  32 A  Yes.  It was at the edge of the trail where the creek  33 runs known as Xsi Ts'uuts'wit.  34 Q  And after the incident with the Wet'suwet'en who  35 knocked — crossed off, did that have any effect on  36 changing the boundary? In other words, is that still  37 the boundary or has the boundary changed since then?  38 A  No.  They — they can't change this because it's  39 passed on from generation to generation.  40 Q  Okay.  Now I just like to ask you a few questions.  41 One is — out of what you already explained.  You said  42 that Frank Calder — that you told Frank Calder at the  43 meeting that he was from the house of Guxsan.  Can you  44 explain why Frank — why you say that Frank Calder is  45 from the house of Guxsan?  46 A  Frank Calder*s mother moved to Aiyansh when she was  47 married.  She moved from Guxsan*s house to Aiyansh and 169  S. Williams (for Plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Grant  1 she could not take the crests or anything from that  2 house when she moved to Aiyansh.  3 I remember the — a part of a speech of King  4 George when he had this emblem with the lion on it.  5 He said that he — no one could use this emblem, and  6 he didn't want anyone to use this emblem on — that  7 belonged to him.  Tenimgyet had — had a crest — has  8 a crest that is of the lion, just like King George,  9 and they both have the same emblem and crest.  Would  10 they have war between King George and Tenimgyet?  11 Q  You mentioned that at this meeting at Canyon City,  12 yourself and Mary — I think you said Mary McKenzie  13 was present?  14 A  Yeah.  15 Q  Were there other Gitksan chiefs there besides the two  16 of you?  17 A  I seen Wii'mugulsxw there, Axtii hiikw was there,  18 Malii was there.  I have the tapes and Neil has the  19 tapes of the meetings at Canyon City.  And I have —  20 they also taped what I had said.  21 Q  Okay.  I've been instructed that there were over a  22 hundred Gitksan people that attended, including  23 Gitksan chiefs.  Would that be your recollection that  24 there were over a hundred Gitksan chiefs at this  25 meeting or chiefs and other Gitksan people? ,\      |t>  26 A  It's way past a hundred.  There was — the Gitksan'  27 chiefs and the Gitksan people.  28 Q  And were Wet'suwet'en people also present at that  29 meeting?  30 A  I just seen a few of them.  31 MR. GRANT:  Maybe we'll take an adjournment now, just take a  32 brief break for the reporter.  33  3 4 (PROCEEDINGS  ADJOURNED  AT  11:20   a.m.)  35 (PROCEEDINGS  RECONVENED  AT  11:30   a.m.)  36  37 MR. GRANT:  38 Q  Before the adjournment you were talking about your  39 mother being adopted and you gave an answer that your  40 grandmother married Wixa.  Your grandmother was from  41 Gitsegukla?  42 A  Yes, my grandmother is from Gitsegukla, from the house  43 of Gwis gyen.  44 Q  And your — and Wixa was from Kitwancool?  45 A  Yes, Wixa is from Kitwancool and he has a house there.  46 MR. GRANT:  And during the break I believe, Madam Interpreter,  47 we clarified that point and you indicated that you may 170  S. Williams (for Plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Grant  1 have transposed those —  2 THE INTERPRETER:  Yes.  3 MR. GRANT:  — by accident in answer?  4 THE INTERPRETER:  Yes.  5 MR. GRANT:  6 Q  Now, I just want to go back to the Canyon City  7 meeting, and you've described the Txemsim story that  8 you said at that meeting, and you've also talked about  9 your reference to Frank Calder and to Herb Morvin and  10 what you told them at that meeting.  Did you or did —  11 did you talk about the — the pole put up by the  12 earlier Dim Xsaan at that boundary at the Canyon City  13 meeting? Which was put on the boundary?  14 THE INTERPRETER:  What was the question?  15 Q  Did you — did you talk about the pole — I think it's  16 Hlgimadaa sook — put up by the earlier Nishga chief,  17 did you discuss that at the Canyon City meeting?  18 A  Yes, I told them.  This is why I told them where the  19 boundary was, this was where the pole was.  20 Q  Okay.  Now, just before the break you indicated that  21 you have been to Lax lilbax, the island on Sand Lake  22 in Tenimgyet's territory.  On the other side of that  23 lake, is there a boundary with the Nishga chiefs?  24 A  The boundary of Tenimgyet is past that island and it  25 goes towards Gwin Sdi'moon, and I do not know which ,.  26 Nishga — who owns the territory on the other side of  27 Tenimgyet's boundary.  28 Q  Now, what I would like you to do, if you can, and you  29 may have to pause so that we get the words, but can  30 you describe the boundary between the Nishga and the  31 Gitksan from Sand Lake on the west towards Gitwingax  32 on the east, that is the boundary between the  33 Gitwingax and Kitwancool chiefs on the one side, and  34 the Nishga chiefs on the other side starting at Sand  35 Lake?  36 A  Yes, I'll tell you.  I'll tell you all of it that I  37 know.  It starts — the boundary starts at Sand Lake,  3 8 it goes up to the top of the mountain at Luu lax  39 sooxsit, Tenimgyet's territory.  It goes down to Gyehl  40 'Din, it goes down and then it goes down towards where  41 the headwaters of Anx Timiiyit.  This is where the  42 boundary of — this is the boundary between Gitwingax  43 and the Nishga — Nishgas.  44 Q  And what was the last place that you —  45 A  Anx Timiiyit.  46 Q  And whose territory is on the Gitwingax — on the  47 Gitksan side of that boundary there? 171  S. Williams (for Plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Grant  1 A  Anx Timiiyit belongs to Wii hlengwax.  2 MS. KOENIGSBERG:  Can I have spellings for those?  3 MR. GRANT:  4 Q  You don't have to worry.  5 Now, if you follow the boundary along with the  6 Nishga, is the — do you then come to the Kitwancool  7 chiefs' territory after what you've just described?  8 A  I — if I go towards Anx Timiiyit, I can't mention the  9 boundaries of the Kitwancool.  Do you want me to tell  10 the boundaries of the Kitwancool?  11 Q  Yes.  I understand you've described now from Sand Lake  12 to Gitwingax, the boundaries between the Gitwingax  13 chiefs and the Nishga, that's what you've just  14 described.  Can you now describe the boundaries  15 between the Gitwingax chiefs and the Kitwancool  16 chiefs?  17 A  I told you this before that the boundary from Gyehl  18 'Din — from — the boundary from Anx Timiiyit and  19 Gyehl 'Din, it goes — it goes up to the mountains  20 toward the Nishga, and I — I told this before.  21 It goes to Anx Timiiyit down to Gyehl 'Din, and then  22 on this side of the Gyehl 'Din it goes up on top of  23 the mountains.  Gunuu has a creek running on this side  24 of the territory — Gyehl 'Din.  The boundary between  25 Gitwingax and Kitwancool goes on the ridges of the  26 tops of the mountains, and there is a creek runnirig  27 from there which is Xsi Anx Timiiyit.  After he passes  28 Anx Timiiyit, it goes to — there is a lot of creeks  29 that are there, and the one of the creeks is Sga  30 hawaagit.  This creek is known as Xsisga hawaagit and  31 then the boundary still keeps on to the tops of the  32 mountain.  After it passes Xsisga hawaagit it goes to  33 Luu'min an — Luu'min an tsim makhl — Luu'min tsim an  34 makhl.  It still goes on top of the mountains and  35 it — then it comes to the headwaters that is on the  36 mountain.  And there is a creek that goes down to —  37 towards the Skeena.  There is a little lake there, the  38 name of the lake is Ts'im anda boosxwit.  There is a  39 rock on your — if you're going up it's on your right,  40 right-hand side, and this is where the grizzly den is.  41 Then you still go on top of the mountains and there  42 is — there is a place called Luu'min ts'im T'in  43 which — Luu'min ts'im T'in which belongs to Hakw.  44 The — our ancestors called this place Luu'min ts'im  45 T'in, because there is two hills or mountains coming  46 down and the waters going down in between.  And this  47 is what is known as Luu'min ts'im T'in in the ancient 172  S. Williams (for Plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Grant  1 times, in our language.  2 The boundary between Kitwancool and Gitwingax  3 still goes on top of the mountain, then you get to  4 a — to a steep mountain where the — where the goats  5 are.  This steep rock is known as higuu biiyaxsit.  At  6 one time when I was there, I was running after the  7 goats that were there, and I stood on this rock and I  8 jumped down and I hit the sand at the bottom.  If we  9 are — the boundary goes — if we are coming from —  10 from — if we are coming towards — if you are coming  11 towards Gitwingax it's on your right-hand side.  And  12 then you keep travelling and then you get to a place  13 called Lo'oba t'ak_s guu fax-  There is — there's a  14 little hill there, it's a round little hill, and this  15 is where — where the goats always go to the — they  16 like this little place.  And at the bottom of this  17 hill there is a lake.  There is a lake there that's  18 why they call it Lo'oba t'a&s guu fax-  19 After the — this, the boundary passes this place  20 and then it comes onto a place called Lax wila oo,  21 it's going to the mountains.  This is — this  22 territory belongs to the — to Gitwingax/ and the  23 other side is the Kitwancool.  There is a little creek  24 that runs down which is known as Tsee is.  After he  25 passes this place then it goes to oxws ooltxwit.  This  26 is — the territory belongs to Tooxensxw.  It — the ..  27 boundary goes along the side of Tooxensxw territory  28 and then it goes to Lax hli goot'.  It passes Lax hli  29 goot' and then it goes — it keeps on and then it —  30 Ska Loo'it.  Then it goes to the lake which is known  31 as Lax Behlit.  This lake is known.as T'aam xsuwii  32 'minst.  The white people call it Tea Lake because it  33 looked — the lake is the colour of tea.  It goes to  34 Gaxsbgabaxs' territory and Qasaa lax lo'op, and there  35 is two lakes in this territory and it belongs to  36 Gaxsbgabaxs.  37 Q  And that's the territory above Kitwancool that you —  38 this last territory of Gaxsbgabaxs is the one you  39 refer to as £asaa lax lo'op in your affidavit and in  40 Exhibit 4; is that right?  41 A  Yes.  Right on.  42 Q  There is one place I would like to ask you about that  43 you mentioned before the break this morning, and you  44 said that there is a place at — I believe you  45 pronounce it Gwin Hlekw which belongs to Yal.  Is this  46 a fishing site of Yal's?  47 MR. PLANT:  What? 173  S. Williams (for Plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Grant  1 MR. GRANT:  2 Q  Just one moment.  Gwin Hlekw, Gwin Hlekw, is this a  3 fishing site of Yal's?  4 A  Oh, that's close to the boundary of — yes, it belongs  5 to — he married a woman from Gwashlam's house and  6 this is what they — he is using this land as a  7 blanket because this belongs to — Gwin Hlekw really  8 belongs to Gwashlam.  The place is known as Gwin Hlekw  9 because there is waves in that water, and Hlekw in our  10 language is waves sort of movement, water movement.  11 Q  And is that — that fishing site, what river is that  12 on?  13 A  It's the Nass River, Xsi Txemsim.  Fish can't swim  14 underground.  15 Q  Okay.  I was going to move into another area.  Would  16 you like to stop for lunch now?  17 A  I would like to finish that.  18 Q  Want to finish another area?  19 A  I am not hungry.  20 Q  Okay.  I would like to ask you a bit about the  21 spiritual beliefs of the Gitksan, and about how you  22 prepared — what preparations you were taught and what  23 you do to prepare for hunting or for fishing or for  24 trapping.  Can you describe this for us?  25 A  We have people known as the Indian doctors or the1  26 Halayts that cure the sick and heal the sick, and' 'they  27 have their own medicine that they could use.  And at  28 one time I was — I was sick, I was haemorrhaging, I  29 was throwing up blood.  This happened on a trapline, I  30 was with Luuxoon, and what he did is he went to a lake  31 and he got the — the lilly, the wild Inly roots  32 from — from this lake.  33 Q  What's the Gitksan word for what he — for the plant  34 he referred to?  3 5 A  fiahl Daats'.  36 MS. KOENIGSBERG:  May I have a spelling for that, please?  37 A  The — he took the lilly root — lilly roots and he  38 sliced them — he sliced it, and then he took the bark  39 of the Hemlock, the tree was about four inch across.  40 When I broke my shoulder, what he did was he sliced  41 these lilly roots and he put it on my shoulder.  And  42 on top of the lilly roots then he put the bark of the  43 Hemlock and he bind it, and within a week I was — I  44 was all right, I could use my hand again.  45 The reason why I broke my shoulder was I was too  46 lazy and I chopped a big tree down and this was for  47 firewood, and I put it on my shoulder and I went into 174  S. Williams (for Plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Grant  1 a hole while I was carrying this tree, and I fell down  2 with this pole and it broke my shoulder.  So it  3 doesn't pay to be lazy.  And this was that time when  4 I — the pole fell on me and I also was haemorrhaging,  5 I started haemorrhaging blood, and I told Luuxoon I  6 was going to go back home.  And he said, "No," he  7 said, "we'll get you some medicine here."  I took —  8 he took the beaver cast and he cut a piece off and he  9 told me to chew this and just swallow the juice.  And  10 he told me to do this until the — there was no more  11 beaver cast, until it disappeared in my mouth.  This  12 was a medicine that was really hard to take.  As I put  13 it in my mouth and chewing it, it just burned my  14 mouth, the inside of my mouth, but I listened to  15 the — to my partner who was Luuxoon, I did what he  16 asked me to do.  And to this day, I've never  17 haemorrhaged again.  18 MR. GRANT:  19 Q  When you said "beaver cast" were you referring to  20 beaver castor? You referred to it as beaver cast, I  21 think there is a pronunciation —  22 A  I guess so, I don't know.  23 Q  Would it be castor? What is it — how did he describe  24 it in Wet'suwet'en — or Gitksan? What is it, sorry?  25 A  Sgyanaa ts'imilix.  26 MS. KOENIGSBERG:  Sorry, I didn't here that.  27 MR. PLANT:  Is it oil?  28 MR. GRANT:  29 Q  Can you describe what it is.  Was it like a meat or an  30 oil?  31 A  Not oil, it's sgyanaa ts'imilix  32 MR. PLANT:  That's what it was, that's what it is and ever shall  33 be.  34 A  Yes.  It's not a —it's part of the beaver.  35 MR. GRANT:  36 Q  Part of the genitals of the beaver, right?  37 A  It just like oil, it's an oil there and — it contains  3 8 some oil.  39 Q  Okay.  I'm instructed that that — that "cast" would  40 be what we would refer to as castor, and that's  41 probably the correct — the witness described it as  42 cast, I think the name he meant was castor, that's  43 what I'm instructed anyway.  44 Now, did Tommy Muldoe ever assist you when you  45 were sick?  46 A  Yes, he did help me when I was sick.  47 Q  Can you tell us what was wrong with you and what he 175  S. Williams (for Plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Grant  1 did?  2 A  I — I was living here in Hazelton, and I was living  3 in a house which Tommy Muldoe owned over here, and I  4 was — I was with Fanny, this is the reason why I was  5 living at Tommy's.  And — and Fanny is my wife and I  6 got sick.  Fanny is Tommy Muldoe's daughter, my wife.  7 The — I was sick and the doctor gave me some  8 medication to take, and I did take it but it never  9 helped me, just it taste like sugar to me.  Then  10 Fanny's father came and he told me that — that he was  11 going to work on me as a Halayt, a doctor.  He told me  12 to come up at his little house where it's situated  13 near a place called Miinhl Gwanks, his territory, his  14 ranch.  15 I did what he asked me to do, I walked up there.  16 It was quite hard for me to walk, but Fanny and I went  17 up.  After I got to his log cabin, he told me to  18 remove all my clothes and so I did, and he laid me on  19 his bed.  After he laid me on the bed, he started  20 singing his Halayt song, and he — he rubbed me on my  21 chest and he would sing this song.  And then he had a  22 rattle that he used while he was singing this song.  23 He started quivering, shaking, and he picked up this  24 rattle and he hit it on my chest.  And after — after  25 this he quit, and then atter awhile he told me to get  26 up.  As I was getting up I felt better.  I got up'and  27 I got dressed and I was better.  And this was the time  28 that I truly believed in the Indian Halayt doctors.  I  29 know then that the creator gave these powers to some  30 of our people, because they — this was way before the  31 doctors came, and this was the power the creator gave  32 some of our people.  33 And in the ancient times, thousands of years  34 before the arrival of white man and thousands of years  3 5 ago, our people always knew there was a creator,  36 because when they are suffering or when they are —  37 they are travelling, what they do is they would —  38 they would build a fire and they would make an  39 offering in that fire.  While the — while the  40 offering is burning then they would pray in their own  41 language while the offering is burning.  42 There was another Indian doctor, Halayt, that I  43 went to see in Gitsegukla — Kitwancool, his name was  44 Txaax yahlixs.  I was really sick when I was still a  45 young boy, and this man, Txaax yahlixs was there and  46 he seen I was sick.  We were living in the same house,  47 and he told my mother that he was going to work on me 176  S. Williams (for Plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Grant  1 so that I would get better.  He told my mother to  2 take — to remove my clothes, so my mother did, and  3 they made a place where I was going to lie.  So they  4 laid me down and they covered me with the cedar mat.  5 And this is — this was when this Indian doctor, the  6 Indian Halayt took three rocks out, they're about this  7 size, one was black, one was white and one was red.  8 Q  Could you just hold those up.  What size?  9 A  About that.  10 Q  About three quarters of an inch in diameter.  11 A  He took these rocks or stones and he put it on my  12 chest, and after he done this, he covered me with the  13 cedar mat.  They called this — these stones  14 aat'ixyaasxw.  It's the Halayt's aat'ixyaasxw, which  15 means that it's the power of the Halayt.  And this —  16 after he covered me with the cedar mat, what he did is  17 he walked around me singing his Halayt song, walked  18 around me with this big rattle, singing.  After he did  19 this, then he took this big rattle and he hit my body  20 with it, my — all over my body, my legs, my chest.  21 After he did this, he took the cedar mat off of me and  22 I was watching for the stones on my chest, I was  23 looking to see if they were still on.  But when he  24 took off the cedar mat, the — there was no — none of  25 the stones were on my chest.  And when I was getting  26 up — when I got up, he — he opened the palm of >his ...  27 hand and he showed me the three stones that was on my  28 chest.  Through his own power these stones returned  29 back to him.  This was the — the Halayt was finished  30 with me, and I — I sat — I got up and I was — I was  31 cured, I didn't feel sick anymore..  32 When I was with my father in Kispiox, I was — I  33 was old enough then, he told me that we — we were  34 going to watch the — we were going to go to the — to  35 this house to watch the doctors, the Indian Halayts  36 perform their — their powers.  There was a lady there  37 that was quite sick, she was just about dying, and  38 there was a lot of Indian doctors, Halayts that were  39 there.  There was one Halayt that was performing, his  40 name was Mihlaxs, and he was — he was singing, and he  41 told the — there was a fire burning, and he told them  42 to open the fire.  They — what he did is they walked  43 around the fire, and we could see the embers, the red  44 embers on the fire there, on the flat surface.  What  45 he did was he walked around the fire and then he  46 walked in the fire, he walked through the fire, and  47 you could see the red embers just coming out between 177  S. Williams (for Plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Grant  1 his — between his toes.  He walked through the fire  2 towards the sick woman that was lying there, and he —  3 he walked around the sick woman.  And he — he sat  4 down and he — he was singing his song.  He sang and  5 then he — he hollered, he said, "I can't do it, I  6 can't do it."  7 There was another — after this Halayt said he  8 couldn't do it, another Halayt jumped up and he put on  9 his blanket, and this is the hide of the bear, and he  10 was there singing and singing.  And then another one  11 got up and pulled the — tried to pull the hide off of  12 him.  They — the other Halayts tried to pull the  13 hide, the bear hide — this man was naked and he put  14 the bear hide on, and the bear hide stuck to him and  15 these other Halayts ran at him and tried to pull it  16 off him.  They tried so hard that they were just  17 dragging him around, and in the end they couldn't pull  18 the hide, the bear hide off of this Halayt.  19 Q  When you were in Kispiox with your father and saw  20 this, do you remember about how old you were?  21 A  No, I don't.  22 Q  Was this — was this before or after you took the name  23 Gwis gyen?  24 A  Yes.  It was — I was ten years when I took my  25 grandfather's name and this was after.  26 Q  Okay.  Now, you described a cure where you went to"  27 Kitwancool.  Was that after — before or after you  28 took the name Gwis gyen?  29 A  Yes, I've already taken the name.  30 Q  But these two events occurred before you married your  31 present wife?  32 A  No, she wasn't with me.  I — it was after I got  33 married when my wife's father worked on me up here.  34 Q  Okay, okay.  And that was when you were talking about  35 Tommy Muldoe?  36 A  Um-hmm.  37 MR. PLANT:  Did I hear him say 50 years?  38 MR. GRANT:  Yes, there was a reference of 50 years.  39 THE INTERPRETER:  He said he has been married for 50 years.  40 MR. GRANT:  41 Q  Now, was it after you were married that the incident  42 occurred when Luuxoon cured your shoulder and your  43 haemorrhaging?  44 A  No, not yet.  45 Q  Okay.  But it was after you took the name Gwis gyen?  46 A  Yes.  47 Q  And where did that happen, the — where you fell and 178  S. Williams (for Plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Grant  1 broke your shoulder, where were you then?  2 A  I was at Qaks bax skit, the territory of Malii.  We  3 were going towards Mezziaden.  4 Q  That's on the — the present holder of that is Gordon  5 Johnson?  6 A  Um-hmm.  7 Q      Yes,   okay.     Well,   I  think we'll  adjourn  for  lunch,  8 Stanley?  9 A      No,   I   just warm up.  10   MR. GRANT:  You just warmed up.  We will go off the record.  11  12 (PROCEEDINGS  ADJOURNED  AT  12:30  p.m.)  13 (PROCEEDINGS  RECONVENED  AT  2:00  p.m.)  14  15 MR.   GRANT:  16 Q  Gwis gyen, before the lunch-hour I was asking you  17 about spiritual beliefs, and you described the — some  18 of the cures that you had with Halayt.  I would like  19 to ask you now about another aspect of the  20 spirituality — your spirituality as a Gitksan chief,  21 and I would like to ask you about whether you take  22 special preparations when you are preparing yourself  23 for hunting, for trapping or for fishing.  And I  24 believe the word that has been referred to by other  25 witnesses is the word "sisatxw".  Do you undertake  26 sisatxw?  27 A  I used the sisatxw when I go fishing.  I use some of  28 the sisatxw when I go fishing, but when I go hunting  29 and trapping I use — I use a lot of the sisatxw.  30 Q  Can you explain what you mean by sisatxw and what you  31 do? '  32 A  I could tell.  It was secret in the ancient society.  33 It was secretly the ancient society of how the — the  34 sisatxw was practised.  They did not want to mention  35 this to other — different people that's not within  36 their family, because if they would use this then they  37 would be the ones that benefit from it.  38 I'll tell you just a short one.  If a young  39 person, a single person, when he goes through this  40 sisatxw, what he does is he baths for four days.  As  41 he finishes — each time he finishes taking a bath,  42 they have a ring of the — they make — make a ring of  43 the devil's club, and he would go through this each  44 time he takes a bath.  Each time this young person,  45 single person would take a bath he would go through  46 the ring of the devil's club, and each time he would  47 do this, four days, then he would go to where — he 179  S. Williams (for Plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Grant  1 would go to bed but he would sleep the other way:  2 where his head was his feet will be.  And each time he  3 would — he would eat about three inches of — from  4 the plant, the — under the bark, he would eat the  5 plant of the devil's club, he would eat about three  6 inch of this.  That's under the bark of the devil's  7 club.  8 It is the same with a married man, but what he  9 does after four days, he would lie on one side and  10 then after four days he would lie on the other side of  11 his wife.  After the four days is over, after he has  12 taken a bath for four days, he would move away from  13 his wife and he would sleep alone for four days.  14 After four days by himself then he would sleep with  15 his wife again, and they keep doing this until about a  16 month.  17 The person that is going through this sisatxw has  18 to be always busy and what he does is he usually goes  19 on his territories just to keep busy.  And if he  20 doesn't do that, then the sisatxw won't turn out the  21 way he wants it to be.  22 My father showed me how this was done, so did my  23 grandfather, he showed me how it was done, so at one  24 time I did it.  After my — after I went through this  25 sisatxw, after I went through everything, I went with  26 Elijah Turner and Freddy Howard, we went out to hunt •■  27 some deer.  It was — it was in the cold in the  28 wintertime when we went out, it was windy and it was  29 cold.  And as we were travelling along, I seen a  30 squirrel running up a tree so I pointed at the  31 squirrel to show to Arthur Howard — Freddy Howard.  32 And as I pointed at the squirrel, the squirrel just  33 dropped and — dropped on the ground.  34 Q  Correction was the interpreter's, for the record, from  35 Arthur to Freddy Howard.  Go ahead.  36 A  And we — Elijah wanted to pick up the squirrel that  37 fell on the ground, but I said, "No, just leave it  38 there." And we kept travelling on, we travelled up  39 the hill, and we were going up this hill and then I  40 seen a grouse and it flew — flew up and I was showing  41 it to Elijah, and I told him, "There is a grouse over  42 here." And the grouse just flapped its wings and then  43 fell on the ground again.  Freddy Howard asked me how  44 come I didn't want to pick up these animals that had  45 fell, and I told him what my grandfather told me,  46 that — that if I was to pick that animal up, I would  47 have to cut that animal and some lives would be in 180  S. Williams (for Plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Grant  1 danger.  Because if I went through — this is what  2 they call hak'ooja.  if I went through this hax'ooja,  3 then if I — if I was mad at someone, that person will  4 just drop dead, and this is the reason why I didn't go  5 through with this hak/ooja.  If I got mad or if I just  6 looked at a person, if I stared at a person then this  7 person would die, and I didn't want that to happen.  8 The law of the — of the Gitksan people is really  9 serious.  They just don't tell anybody these things  10 that — that the sisatxw goes through, but they know  11 what is going on if this should happen.  12 Q  Could you just tell me what territory this happened  13 when you were with Elijah and Fred Howard?  14 A  It's above Gitsegukla near Xsu'wii gwanks.  15 Q  And which chief's territory is that?  16 A  It belongs to Gwis gyen.  17 Q  That was the territory you described last week?  18 A   (WITNESS NODS HEAD IN RESPONSE)  19 Q  Indicating yes.  And you have prepared yourself by  20 sisatxw on more than one occasion?  21 A  I go through enough sisatxw, if I did it all then it  22 would be dangerous for me and for some people.  23 Q  Now, I would like to ask you to go to another area,  24 Simoogit Gwis gyen, and ask you about the authority  25 that you and the other chiefs exercised regarding the'  26 territory.  Now, you've described last week and at' the  27 beginning of this week and in your affidavits and in  28 Exhibit 4, a number of territories and two of those  29 belong to your house.  When decisions are made  30 regarding the Gitksan territories, whether they are  31 yours or other territories, do you discuss this with  32 the other Gitksan chiefs?  33 A  This is why when they have a discussions of land it's  34 in the — of the territory, it's in the feast house.  3 5 Like in my house, Gwis gyen's house, I have all the  36 laws in my house, and this is the laws of the land  37 that has been put out.  I am not the only one that has  38 these laws in my house; the rest of the Gitksan houses  3 9 have these laws.  We have one common law amongst our  40 Gitksan people and it's this law that I am talking  41 about, and it's — this law is still put into action  42 today, and — concerning the territories.  Each time  43 when — when one of the chiefs invite the other chiefs  44 of the villages and the other people of the Gitksan  45 people and their head chiefs, each time there is a  46 feast they are invited, and each time the feast has  47 been done then our laws are stronger, and when — when 181  S. Williams (for Plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Grant  1 it's put into action.  The laws that our ancestors  2 that has been there for thousands of years have always  3 been there and they still there today.  And it's been  4 a little over a hundred years since the white man and  5 the government came here, and they are trying to tell  6 us that — they are saying — they are breaking our  7 laws and they can't do this because our laws have been  8 here for thousands of years.  9 The sell us the registered — they call it a  10 registered line and they sell us this, and this is  11 wrong because we didn't — we have our own boundary  12 lines, our ancestors have their own boundary lines,  13 and then the government came along and sell us these  14 registered lines.  And they said that these lands will  15 be protected and no one is supposed to trespass on the  16 lands if it's been registered.  17 Then, after they've promised that there was no —  18 no trespassing to be done on the registered line,  19 nobody was going to use — it's protected, then the  20 forestry comes along and he — and then they — they  21 take all the trees that are there.  And I could  22 take — I could show some of the examples on my  23 territory.  I could take people there and show them  24 that the — the part of my land is just bare, just  25 like the floor today.  Our — I went with Neil Sterrit  26 last fall to my territory, and our — the territofy "  27 was just clean, it was — it was just —  28 THE INTERPRETER:  Well, "bald head," he said.  29 MR. PLANT:  Bald head?  30 MR. GRANT:  31 Q  Bald head, yeah.  He was indicating the floor which is  32 linoleum floor, for the record.  33 A  It's the same with the mountains.  They have blasted  34 the mountains and some of our mountains have big gaps  35 in it.  And they took all the ores that they are  36 looking for and which rightfully belongs to our  37 people, and they took this.  It's just like stealing  38 money, it's just like stealing from the bank or from  39 your wallet.  It's just like taking money from your  40 wallet.  And they've never ever asked permission from  41 me or any other chiefs, they just move in and they  42 take all — all the trees that they want, and they  43 never say — say to me, "Could we take some logs out  44 of your territory?" And if it's all right I'll say,  45 "All right," and if it's not, I'll say, "No." And  46 they've never asked for my permission.  47 It's the same with our fishing — our fishing 182  S. Williams (for Plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Grant  1 licence.  I had to pay 850 just to go fishing.  And  2 they do this to us when they are — when they are  3 making money out of our territories.  They charge us  4 for all these licences and then they are making money  5 off of our territories.  I paid $8,000 for my boat,  6 and when I do make money the income tax takes about  7 one-third of the dollar that I make.  My boat has cost  8 me altogether 70,000, and when I don't pay for my —  9 for my fishing licence, I don't get to — to fish on  10 my own waters.  11 The income tax people came to Gitwingax and they  12 said that I owe them — they wanted me to pay income  13 tax and yet I didn't make — I didn't make any money.  14 And they are the ones that owe me $9,000, and they  15 still have this in their office.  They wouldn't —  16 they wouldn't send it to me.  When they say I owe them  17 some money, I get a letter from them through the mail  18 almost every week.  19 Q  You described in that answer that amongst other things  20 the government has mined or allowed mining to go on.  21 Has tnere been any mining on Gwis gyen's territory?  22 A  Yes.  There is three — they made three big blasts on  23 my territory, and three big hollow places there.  This  24 is what they — they were looking for copper there,  25 that's where they got their copper.  26 MR. PLANT:  Did he say "tram-way" in that answer?  27 A  Um-hmm.  That's why there is a tram-way there.  28 MR. GRANT:  29 Q  Did — did either you, the former Hax bagwootxw,  30 Arthur McDames, your grandfather, Gwis gyen, or any of  31 the other chiefs in your house agree or consent to  32 that mining going on, to your knowledge?  33 MR. PLANT:  How would he know?  34 MR. GRANT:  35 Q  Well, he would know if he did it and he would also  36 know if his grandfather or uncle did it if they told  37 him before they were deceased.  38 A  No, we didn't give our — they never even confronted  39 us.  40 Q  Now, you described about expenses that you've  41 incurred, and I would like to ask you this:  Can you  42 give some idea of how much you, Gwis gyen, have put  43 in, in the feast hall over the last year or the last  44 two years, for example? How much money you've spent  45 in the feast hall as Gwis gyen?  46 A  Each time when I hold a feast I usually put in about  47 4,000 in the pot.  And there is the rest of my house 183  S. Williams (for Plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Grant  1 members that would put — put some money in the pot.  2 After all this is added together, that's what with the  3 material, the food and the money, would come to about  4 70 to 80,000.  And we do this to protect our — our  5 land.  We do this so people will say that we've — if  6 we don't do this, people will say, "Oh, they forgot  7 about their territory.  They don't care about their  8 territory." So this is why we put all this — this  9 expenses in when we hold a feast, because of the  10 territory that we hold, that we are responsible for.  11 And at times we have about two or three feasts during  12 the year.  This is the reason why we have the head  13 chief, he has the power and he is — he has his  14 responsibilities to his house members.  He will say  15 who will use the territory and who and what and when  16 they are going to have a feast, and what kind of feast  17 they are going to have.  And he has a saying to this,  18 and he is the one that always reminds his house  19 members of the laws of the land and their own laws.  20 And this is why our law is still known today, because  21 we've — we've — everytime we've had a feast we've  22 put this into action.  23 And then also because of our totem-pole, we have a  24 totem-pole there that contains the history of our  25 territory and the history of our people.  The  26 totem-pole holds the power. Wherever the totem-pdle "  27 is, is where your territory is, the power of your  28 territory is there.  And I have heard some of our  29 totem-poles are in Victoria and some are in Ottawa,  30 and they say wherever the totem-poles are, this is  31 where your territory is.  Who gave them the permission  32 to take these totem-poles? The Kitwancool had a  33 meeting last night, and they will find out why these  34 totem-poles are there.  35 Q  Under the Gitksan law, can you move your pole from one  36 village to another?  37 A  I could — it's impossible for me to move the  38 totem-pole, because the totem-pole holds the power.  I  39 have my power in Gitsegukla, my power and that's where  40 my territory is.  And if I should move that pole  41 from — from Gitsegukla, then my power is broken and  42 weakened and it won't be — I won't have any power at  43 Gitsegukla anymore.  44 Q  If — do you have any idea how much money or goods,  45 the value of the goods you have put in feasts over  46 your lifetime since you've taken the name Gwis gyen?  47 A  I will tell you something that's very serious with our 184  S. Williams (for Plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Grant  1 people.  Our laws are very, very serious.  When we  2 have a feast and we sit on the seat of our  3 grandfathers, it's just — it's just like a knife  4 being stuck in and not ever moved.  This is how our  5 law is.  It's just like a thick steel, it's just like  6 this where my grandfather sits, and it could not be  7 moved, and this seat of steel holds the laws of our  8 people.  It's just also like an ancient tree that's  9 been standing there and the roots have been imbedded  10 deeper and deeper into the ground, and this is how it  11 is.  And the branches are just like the prince and  12 princess, and the acorn the — from — from the tree  13 are the babies that are just being born, and this is  14 how it is with our laws.  It's stronger, it's  15 embedded, the roots are embedded deeper into the  16 ground and now the government has come and tried to  17 uplift this, try to heave it up.  And this is —  18 concerns our territory.  I am not talking only about  19 myself, I'm also talking about the rest of the chiefs  20 that are — that are present today.  21 Q  Can you — you indicated that you — well, let me ask  22 you the question this way:  Can you — do you have any  23 sense or approximation of how much value, dollar  24 value, the goods and the money is that you've put in  25 the feast hall as Gwis gyen since you sat on Gwis  26 gyen's seat?  27 A  I — there have — there has been millions of dollars  28 spent with all of our chiefs, and I was only ten years  29 old when I took my — my grandfather's chair.  And I  30 have spent a lot of money and the last feast I spent  31 over — almost 30 — $30,000, and I — and I would  32 also help with my — with my children's feast.  This  33 is the law of the land and this is why we spend so  34 much in the feast house, we don't want it to be looked  3 5 down upon.  36 Q  If there is a need by a chief to protect or defend the  37 territory like you described yesterday, the Kitwancool  38 when the Ts'its'aawit came, does that chief go to  39 other chiefs? Does the chief involve other chiefs in  40 that protection?  41 A  I told you yesterday what happened.  If anybody has  42 had a problem with their territory, they would all run  43 and help.  Just like 'Naa gel gaa, Xsuu, 'Yagaa deets  44 and "Neekt.  This is the reason why we have feasts,  45 because — because they are the witness that listen to  46 what is said about the territory.  If there is a  47 mistake being made about territories, then you have 185  S. Williams (for Plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Grant  1 your 'Nii Dil which will speak first, who is at the  2 front, sitting at the back front centre.  This is your  3 'Nii Dil and he will speak first.  If he has listened  4 to the chief that has spoken and he agrees with the  5 chief, he will say that it is right, and the rest of  6 the other chiefs on the sides of the house and on the  7 centre will all agree and say that it is right.  8 I use this in the feast house when I — there was  9 a mistake being made.  Miles Gogag whose name was Jo&,  10 he made a mistake about an adaawk, and I stood up and  11 I told him that there was a mistake being made.  And  12 when — if there is a mistake being made then it is  13 corrected right there and then in the feast house.  14 This is how we go about it.  15 Q  And your 'Nii Dil is Gwagl'lo and the Ganeda of  16 Gitsegukla?  17 A  Um-hmm.  18 Q  Now what I would like to ask you about — I was just  19 leading into it with that question about the  20 Kitwancool wars.  Can you give us — do you know —  21 can you give us a recent example of where a — another  22 chief from another house has come to you and you have  23 helped to protect their territory?  24 A  You talking about Canyon City?  25 MR. GRANT:  No, no.  I'm asking you whether you've been involved  26 in helping another Gitksan chief to protect their' '  27 territory in the Gitwingax area?  28 MR. PLANT:  I didn't hear what Mr. Williams said before you —  29 MR. GRANT:  He said, "Are you talking about Canyon City," to  30 which reference would be the meeting that we were  31 discussing this morning.  Maybe we could just go off  32 the record for a moment.  33 MR. PLANT:  All right.  34  3 5 (PROCEEDINGS ADJOURNED AT 2:55 p.m.)  36  37 I hereby certify the foregoing to be  38 a true and accurate transcript of the  39 proceedings herein transcribed to the  40 best of my skill and ability.  41 J^        /  42  43  44    45 Toni Kerekes,  46 O.R. , R.P.R.  47 United Reporting Service Ltd. 186  S.  In  Williams  chief by  (for Plaintiffs)  Mr. Grant  1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  April 20, 1988  Hazelton, B.C.  (PROCEEDINGS RECONVENED AT 9:50 a.m.)  ALICE SAMPSON:  Previously sworn as interpreter.  STANLEY WILLIAMS:  Previously sworn.  EXAMINATION  Q  MR.  MR.  MR.  MR.  MS.  MR.  MS.  MR.  MR.  A  PLANT:  GRANT:  PLANT:  GRANT:  IN CHIEF CONT. BY MR. GRANT:  Okay, it's April 20th and this is the eighth day of  the commission evidence of Stanley Williams, Chief  Gwis gyen.  And the witness and the interpreter both  understand that you are still under oath.  (WITNESS NODS HEAD IN RESPONSE)  I think it's only the seventh day.  It's the seventh?  We didn't sit on Friday of last week.  Right, so the seventh day.  Gwis gyen, I would like to ask you if  a year ago Easter, that is Easter of 1987  were at Earl Muldoe's  ceremony  pole?  I went to  known as the  house  First  you remember  whether you  at a time when there was a  Cut Ceremony of Hanamuxw's  Earl Muldoe's house but I wasn't  there for  cut the  when — for the first cut, when they first  pole.  Q  Okay.  But were you there when there was a ceremony at  which Lelt, Fred Johnson, Xamlaxyeltxw, Solomon  Marsden and Gwaans and other persons were present?  A  Yes, I was there.  Q  And did you speak at that ceremony?  A  I gave a speech after Fred Johnson and the others gave  a speech.  Q  I'm going to show you — I'm going to have the  interpreter read to you page 5 of a transcription of  the video tape which I understand is a translation —  which I've been instructed is a translation of what  you said.  And I would like you to listen to that and  then I'll ask you some questions about it.  KOENIGSBERG: Can I just ask if this is a transcript which  was produced during Hanamuxw's evidence —  GRANT:  Yes.  KOENIGSBERG:  — at trial in Smithers last year?  GRANT:  Yes.  But I don't think it was introduced as an  exhibit, it was objected to.  PLANT:  It was marked as an exhibit for identification. 187  S.  In  Williams  chief by  (for Plaintiffs)  Mr. Grant  1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  MR.  MR.  MR.  MR.  MR.  GRANT:  It was? Okay.  PLANT:  Oh, a transcript was.  that was marked did not  first page.  Okay.  Which has the statement  GRANT  PLANT  GRANT  Q  I know that the transcript  have the second line on the  "Translated by," on it.  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  Right, okay,  would be that  referring.  I  copy, I don't  This is the — other than that, this  same transcript to which you are  could not recall if it was marked —  have it marked as an exhibit for  my  identification, but it's the transcript of the video  tape which was shown during Gwaans' testimony.  Not  Hanamuxw's, Gwaans' testimony.  Do you want to please — I'll read this for the  record and then have you translate it.  Page 5:  "Simogyet Gwis gyen  "Way Simgigyet  "You now see the laws of our grandfathers when Lelt  and Xamlaxyeltxw showed the laws of our  grandfathers.  It is clear who this pole belongs  to, when we stand over Hanaumxw today.  Work will  begin work on the pole.  It is being made clear to  you, the laws of the Aluugiget.  It is now  demonstrated."  Will you translate that part of it, please.  He said that is right.  And  that's what you  said?  Um-hmm.  It goes on to quote you as saying:  "There are laws in this pole we are standing over,  it is where our grandfathers Adaawk and the laws  of the land are in this pole, this is where the  laws of the land the Chiefs hold - it is this  pole."  Do you remember saying that?  Yes, that's right.  And then finally says:  "The laws of the — " 188  S. Williams (for Plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Grant  1 This is a translation of what you said, apparently:  2  3 "The laws of the hunting grounds and the laws of  4 the fishing sites are represented by this pole.  5 When the time comes, when this pole is to be  6 erected, it is when it will be demonstrated.  7 Everything will be public.  That's all, I will  8 say."  9  10 Do you remember saying that?  11 A  Um-hmm.  12 Q  And those statements that you made, are they true?  13 A  Yes, everything that I said is the way it's supposed  14 to be.  It's our law and I was supposed to have a talk  15 there.  16 Q  Okay.  You anticipate my next question, Gwis gyen, and  17 that was why — why did you speak there, why were you  18 supposed to speak there?  19 A  I'm quite close to Gwaans.  In our Gitksan nation we  20 call it sisters, but in the white world they call it  21 cousins.  22 Q  Well, are you of the same clan?  23 A  Yes, we are. both Gisk_'aast.  24 Q  And you are both of — Gisk'aast of Gitsegukla?  25 A  Yes, we came from the same village, Gitsegukla.  26 Q  And are you considered among the Gis&'aast of  27 Gitsegukla as the highest chief of the Gisk'aast of  28 Gitsegukla, in the sense that you sit in a certain  29 place in the feast hall?  30 A  Yes.  They chose me to speak for the village, and  31 this — what happens, if a chief wants to talk, he  32 sometimes comes to me and I will tell what he has on  33 his mind, what he wants me to say.  34 Q  I'm going to refer you to the first page of the  35 transcript, and you were present when Lelt spoke, and  36 you indicated he spoke ahead of you; is that right?  37 A  Yes, I was there.  38 Q  Okay.  And this is a translation — or a transcription  39 of what was recorded Lelt as saying, and I'm going to  40 ask you if this is what you recall that he said.  41 MR. PLANT:  I don't think you can do that.  Seems to me to be  42 plainly hearsay.  43 MR. GRANT:  If he can recall what Lelt said for the fact that  44 Lelt said it, I think it's admissible.  45 MR. PLANT:  For what?  46 MR. GRANT:  The fact that Lelt said these things.  47 MR. PLANT:  How is the fact that he said them relevant? 189  S. Williams (for Plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Grant  1  MR.  2  3  4  5  MS.  6  7  8  MR  9  MS  10  MR  11  MS  12  MR  13  MS  14  MR  15  MS  16  MR  17  18  19  20  21  22  MS  23  24  MR  25  MR  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  MR  34  MR  35  36  37  38  39  MR  40  MR  41  MR  42  43  MR  44  45  MR  46  47  GRANT: Well, it's part of the — it's part of the whole  ceremony that occurred there.  I'm going to ask him  and your objection is noted and we can deal with it in  due course.  KOENIGSBERG:  I object as well on the same grounds, but I  would ask if in addition, if this is a transcript of  the film, the video, which was shown —  GRANT:  Yes, it is.  KOENIGSBERG:     And  Lelt   spoke   —  GRANT:      Yes.  KOENIGSBERG:     —   in  the video —  GRANT:     Yes.  KOENIGSBERG:  — and it was translated, was it not?  GRANT:  It was translated.  KOENIGSBERG:  So is it not already in evidence?  GRANT:  No.  Because this — the objection was taken to this  transcript, so this transcript — translation was put  in as an exhibit for identification.  And this witness  was present and I'm going to ask him about the two  other chiefs that spoke.  The translate — the video  was not translated.  KOENIGSBERG:  Okay.  And the objection was, of course, that  it was hearsay.  GRANT:  Objection Mr. Plant has raised.  PLANT: Well, the objection then was that it was going to be  hearsay and that's why the transcript was not  permitted to be introduced as evidence.  I can't see  any difference between the situation that prevailed  then and the situation that prevails now.  You were  asking — before you asked Mrs. Ryan, who was there,  what people said, in fact, and now you are proposing  to do the same thing of Mr. Williams.  GRANT:  Yes, because —  PLANT:  But you have my objection and while I think it's so  — clearly it's sustainable that it really would be  wasting time to go any further.  But the usual  procedure is that we proceed and we argue about it  later.  GRANT:  Well —  PLANT:  So carry on.  GRANT:  That's a luxury we have that neither of us are  judges so we can proceed and deal with it later.  PLANT:  It's a luxury that I'm sure we will enjoy for the  balance of this commission.  Carry on.  GRANT:  Q  I intend to.  Okay, I'm going to ask you if you recall Lelt — 190  S. Williams (for Plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Grant  1 if this is what Lelt said:  2  3 "This is the law.  The law, the symbols of power  4 and authority you see before you.  The power and  5 authority is here on it.  The power is on it.  And  6 this is why the chiefs exist.  7  8 "It is now that they add to their power and  9 authority by this process so that they will be  10 even more powerful.  It will really strengthen the  11 law, and there will be no one who will be ignorant  12 of the law.  13  14 "Simgigyet, a statement needs only to be made.  I  15 say this, I am hesitant to say what I have to say  16 but we must be obedient to what is right so that  17 their prestige on this end where we are at will be  18 elevated.  So this is why you will hear of the  19 power and authority."  20  21 Now, can you read that part of it over please, and I  22 would like to ask you simply if — if this is what  23 Lelt said.  Do you recall Lelt saying that at the —  24 at this ceremony at Earl Muldoe's?  25 A  Yes, I heard.  26 Q  Okay.  This is — I'll just read the balance of what--  27 Lelt said:  28  29 "Some of you possibly have push button radios  30 (recorders).  You will record them and you will  31 play it in your house and your house will have  32 wisdom, because truth has been spoken.  33  34 "There are laws concerning it, that is the way of  35 our grandfathers.  Well, now we will sing, and you  36 will assist me.  This is why I learned so I can  37 present this song now."  38  39 I believe at that point a song was sung.  Or maybe  40 not, maybe it was at the end.  41  42 "I have attended many times, when laws are  43 practiced.  That is where the power and authority  44 is - even today.  45  46 "A wise person understands it and learns it.  We  47 will now sing this hereditary song." 191  S. Williams (for Plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Grant  1 Do you remember Lelt saying these words and then  2 singing the song?  3 A  Everything that Lelt said about our laws are always  4 true, and this is the reason why we — why we were  5 present there, and he was present there when the —  6 when they first cut the pole, and this is the loss of  7 our grandfathers.  8 MR. GRANT:  Okay.  I would like to mark that transcript as the  9 next exhibit number, please.  10 MR. PLANT:  Well —  11 MR. GRANT:  I think — you've got an objection regarding part of  12 it, but the — I want to put the whole transcript in  13 and —  14 MR. PLANT:  It already is.  It's Exhibit 30A.  15 MR. GRANT:  Okay.  Well it's the one — I just want to put this  16 in as the one that was referred to by the witness.  I  17 don't have one that was marked.  And so it would be  18 marked as Exhibit 7, I believe, and based on Exhibit 7  19 in the commission evidence, and it is transcript of  20 Hanamuxw*s video tape and it's the same as Exhibit 3 0A  21 except for the reference to who translated it on this  22 copy.  Was that 3 0A?  23 MR. PLANT:  30A, yes.  24  25 (EXHIBIT 7 FOR IDENTIFICATION - Exhibit 30A,  26 Transcript of Hanamuxw's Video Tape)  27  28 MR. GRANT:  29 Q  I would like to move to another area of your evidence,  30 Gwis gyen, and I would like to ask you briefly about  31 reserves.  And when I'm talking about reserves here I  32 mean those reserves which the Government of Canada  33 and the Province of British Columbia have set aside  34 for Indians, reserves as defined in the Indian Act.  3 5 And —  36 A  Can I answer this first?  37 Q  I haven't asked yet, just give me a second.  Are there  38 — are there reserves on any of Gwis gyen's territory?  39 And — well, firstly that?  40 A  There is a reserve situated at T'im ba* where our  41 fishing site is.  42 MS. KOENIGSBERG:  Can I have the spelling for that.  43 MR. GRANT:  T-I-M B-A-H is the reserve spelling but there is a  44 number.  45 THE  TRANSLATOR:      782.  46 MR.   GRANT:  47 Q  782, which is the Gitksan spelling.  The T-I-M B-A-H 192  S. Williams (for Plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Grant  1  2  3  4  5  A  6  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  Q  19  20  A  21  22  23  24  Q  25  26  27  28  29  30  A  31  32  33  34  35  36  Q  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  A  44  45  Q  46  47  is the spelling that is in the Indian register.  If there was a reserve — where there are reserves  set up, does this affect the Gitksan chiefs' authority  over that portion of your territory?  In the beginning we did not have what is called  reserves, because all the land was — belongs to our  people.  When the arrival of the white man — white  men, they put us on reserves, they — they take the  piece of land and this is where they put us.  And then  after this — they did this because the land, there  was vast land that belonged to us and they wanted this  land for themselves.  This is what they did also to  the — when there was — at fishing sites, they even  put reserves on our fishing sites.  Some of them are  just about a half a mile square, or two miles square.  This is wrong, they are not supposed to do this.  The  land belongs to us in the beginning.  Who has authority over the territory where T'im ba' is  located today, that is the T'im ba' reserve?  It all started when they forced my grandfather, he was  blind, and they took his hand and they made an "X" on  this paper, and that's how that reserve started at  that fishing site.  Okay.  Today, you described all of the territories of  a number of chiefs including your own, Gwis gyen^s  territory.  Under — as far as the Gitksan chiefs 'are  concerned, who exercises — who has the right to  exercise authority over that place that is now known  as T'im ba' reserve?  They still have — the chief still have the powers  where the reserve is.  Our powers never changed and  the same with our boundaries, it has never changed.  And when — ever since time began we had these  territories and the boundaries never changed and it's  the same today.  Okay.  You live in the village of Gitwingax which is a  reserve today.  Can you tell us under the Gitksan  laws, what — I'm sorry, before I say that, you've  described that the eagle clan owns the territory  surrounding and in the location of Gitwingax-  Are the  eagle — is Sakxum higookx the only chief who has  authority within the village of Gitwingax?  The first chief there is Wii Hlengwax, Sakxum higookx,  Ax tii hiikw and Tenimgyet.  So — and Tenimgyet and Ax tii hiikw are Lax Gibuu,  Sakxum higookx is eagle, and Wii Hlengwax is G_aneda;  is that correct? 193  S.  Williams  (for  In  chief  by  Mr.   C  Plaintiffs)  Grant  1 A  Yes, that's true.  2 Q  Okay.  And so are you saying, then, that the head  3 chiefs of each of the clans of Gitwingax have  4 authority within the village itself?  5 A  Yes, they have their powers there, they're — they're  6 the top — the high chiefs, and it resembles the way  7 the government now is run, that's how it is in  8 Gitwingax-  9 Q  When you say "the government", what government are you  10 referring to?  11 A  Trudeau.  12 Q  Trudeau, okay.  Is this the same in Gitsegukla which I  13 believe you've described as surrounded by the  14 territory, or is incorporated within the boundary of  15 the territory of Gwagl'lo — no, you haven't referred  16 to Gwagl'lo.  It's referred to — it's next to your  17 territory, the village of Gitsegukla — let me  18 rephrase the question, I'm very sorry.  19 You described your territory, that is the  20 territory of Gwis gyen which is close to Gitsegukla.  21 Now, is the village of Gitsegukla solely the territory  22 of one chief or do a number of chiefs have authority  23 there as well?  24 THE INTERPRETER:  You described — what did you say, Guxsan or  25 Gwis gyen?  26 Q  Your territory, Gwis gyen, your territory as being  27 close to the village of Gitsegukla?  28 A  It is the same as Gitwingax.  We — the Gisk_'aast  29 chiefs and the frog chiefs have powers there and we  30 have the same law — laws, we follow the same laws.  31 In the ancient times there was just the — there was  32 no wolves there in the ancient times.  33 Q  There was no?  3 4 A  Wolves, Wolf clan.  35 Q      Yes,   I   just  didn't hear you.     And when you  say,   "We  36 the Gisk'aast chiefs," you are including yourself,  37 Hanamuxw,   and Guxsan?  38 A      Yes.  39 Q  Okay.  Do you, Gwis gyen, have territory or right —  40 territory within the village of Gitsegukla?  41 A  Yes, it's close, it's two miles above Gitsegukla.  And  42 I showed — I showed you on that will I had.  43 Q  Okay.  44 MR. PLANT:  I showed you on that what?  45 THE INTERPRETER:  On the will —  46 MR. GRANT:  Will.  47 THE INTERPRETER:  — I had. 194  S.  Williams  In  chief  by  (for Plaintiffs)  Mr. Grant  1 MR. GRANT:  2 Q  This is Exhibit 5 that he is referring to.  3 I would like to ask you some questions about some  4 other documents, and this relates to traplines —  5 trapline registration.  And document — an excerpt  6 from document 10982 of the Government of Canada, it's  7 my number notation on the bottom.  Do you know Edith  8 Weget?  9 A  Yes, I know her.  The wife of Simon Turner.  10 Q  And do you know who Moses Jones was?  11 A  Yes, I know him.  12 Q  Okay.  13 A  His chief name was 'Wiis T'is.  14 MS. KOENIGSBERG:  Can I have a spelling for that, please?  15 THE TRANSLATOR:  It's No. 936  16 MR. GRANT:  17 Q  Okay.  I'm going to read you this document which is —  18 this document came out of a trapline file from the  19 Department of Indian Affairs, and it's entitled  20 "Agreement of Waiver", and it says:  21  22 "I, Edith Weget, sole heir to the Simon Turner  23 estate, do hereby waive and relinquish all rights  24 and interest to that portion of the Simon Turner  25 Trapline registration, which would be mine by  26 right of probate.  I further agree that this ' '  27 registration may be taken over by Moses Jones of  28 Kitsegukla Indian reserve."  29  30 It's dated the 22nd of December, 1950, signed by Edith  31 Weget by her mark, with a witness, Herbert Russell.  32 Now, I'll have the interpreter translate that for you  33 and then I'm going to ask you a question about it.  34 Now, can you explain what the relationship was  35 between Moses Jones and Simon Turner?  36 A  They were both of the frog clan.  37 Q  Okay.  And Simon Turner, I believe you have given  38 evidence was Gaxsbgabaxs?  39 A  Yes, Simon Turner was Gaxsbgabaxs.  40 Q  And was Moses Jones of the same house as — was he of  41 the house of Gaxsbgabaxs or closely related to that  42 house?  43 MR. PLANT:  Sorry which question are you asking him?  44 MR. GRANT:  45 Q  Was Moses Jones of the house of Gaxsbgabaxs or closely  46 related to that house?  47 A  Moses Jones was from Mool'xan's house, and Gaxsbgabaxs 195  S. Williams (for Plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Grant  1 and Mool'xan were close.  2 Q  Okay.  This document purports to be an authority by  3 Simon Turner's wife, Edith, to transfer the trapline  4 registration of Simon's over to Moses Jones.  Is  5 that — would that transfer — would that transfer  6 from Simon Turner to Moses Jones be in accordance with  7 the Gitksan law of who should hold the territory of  8 Simon Turner after his death?  9 A  When a woman's husband die and there is not an heir,  10 she could sit on — where her husband used to sit and  11 she could hold that territory till there is — till  12 the house has replenish, I guess you would say.  And  13 what Edith did was she knew that Moses Jones was a  14 relative of Simon Turner, and this is why she  15 transferred this territory to Moses Jones.  16 Q  Okay.  Was that transfer — or that decision by Edith  17 Weget, was it announced in the feast hall that you  18 were at?  19 A  I didn't hear about this.  20 Q  Okay.  Now, I would like to ask you about another  21 piece of correspondence which is undated, it's from  22 the Government of Canada's document number five —  23 sorry, 4603, and it purports to be a letter from David  24 Wells either to — well to Mathias Wesley, and there  25 is a copy of it to Mr. Wells who presumably was the .  26 Mr. Wells who was the Indian agent, as it appear^ 'in ■■•  27 the Crown's file.  28 Are you reading it? Oh, don't start reading it  29 yet because I want to put it on the record.  30 THE INTERPRETER:  Okay.  31 Q  Now David Wells was Sakxum higookx, was that right?  32 A  Yes, he is the chief.  33 Q  Okay.  And I want — I have — I want to read this for  34 the record because it's from David Wells — L. Wells  3 5 of Gitwingax and it's to Mathias Wesley.  And did you  36 know Mathias Wesley?  37 A  Yes, I know him.  38 Q  Okay.  It says here:  39  40 "Dear Sir,  41  42 "In order to keep peace between our families  43 due to the accidental death of your brother Walter  44 Wesley, I hereby assign that portion of my old  45 trapline described as follows:  46 "All that portion of my old trapline  47 presently held by my daughter, Mrs. Doris L. 196  S. Williams (for Plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Grant  1 Morrison, lying east of Lome Creek and north of  2 the Skeena River.  3 "The above portion of the trapline may be  4 occupied by you as long as you shall live."  5  6 Signed, "David L. Wells, Gitwingax." Okay, can you  7 translate — now I would like — Madam Interpreter  8 will translate it for you and then I'll ask you about  9 it.  10 A  I know about this territory.  Gwagl'lo's son didn't  11 plan to shoot Walter, it was an accident.  He was  12 carrying the gun and the gun went off and it shot  13 Walter Wesley's head.  It was a 22.  They were  14 following our ancestors and grandfathers' law, and  15 this is the reason why David Wells transfer this land  16 which was known as Xsi K'allii gajit.  He gave this to  17 Guxsan.  He didn't give that — he just gave a portion  18 of this land where the water runs and the top part.  19 He told this in the feast hall, this is known as  20 xsiisxw.  And after this was — is accepted, then  21 there will be peace amongst the families that are  22 involved.  And he said it on this paper too, that  23 Guxsan will use it as long as he shall live.  24 Q  And Mathias Wesley and Walter Wesley were from  25 Guxsan's house?  26 A  Mathias was — had the name Guxsan at that time wh'en "  27 this happened.  28 Q  And this is when David Wells held the name Sakxum  29 higookx?  30 A  Yes, it was him.  31 Q  And Gwagl'lo's son you said was involved in the  32 accident and that was Ernest Hyzims' son who was from  33 the house of Sakxum higookx? His son was from the  34 house of Sakxum higookx?  35 A  Yes, that was Gwagl'lo's son.  36 MR. GRANT:  I would like that to be marked as the next exhibit,  37 please.  38 MS. KOENIGSBERG:  Excuse me, on what basis is it being marked?  39 MR. GRANT: Well, it can be marked as an exhibit for  40 identification, I don't oppose that if you've got any  41 concern.  42 MS.   KOENIGSBERG:     I   don't,   it's   just  that  he didn't —  he  43 didn't —  44 MR. GRANT:  No.  I agree.  45 MS. KOENIGSBERG:  — he didn't identify it.  46 MR. GRANT:  No, I agree he didn't identify it, but it can be  47 marked as an exhibit for identification. 197  S. Williams (for Plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Grant  1  MS.  2  3  MR.  4  MR.  5  6  7  MR.  8  9  10  11  MR.  12  MR.  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  MR.  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  KOENIGSBERG:  Are you going to mark the Agreement of Waiver  the same way?  GRANT:  No, I don't need to mark it.  PLANT: Is it your — well I just want to be sure I understand the basis on which you say it can be marked as  an exhibit for identification.  GRANT:  It's a document to which I've referred the witness  and I just think it's — when the judge deals with the  transcript that it makes sense for him to have  reference to that document.  PLANT:  I quite agree.  Let's mark it.  GRANT:  And for the record, I will refer to Exhibit 8 as an  undated letter from David Wells to Mathias Wesley  regarding the death of Walter Wesley.  (EXHIBIT 8 FOR IDENTIFICATION - Undated Letter from  David Wells to Mathias Wesley Re: Death of Walter  Wesley)  GRANT:  Q  As a result of this accident — no, I'm sorry, I don't  need to ask that.  Now, yesterday I was asking you about protection  of the territories.  Can you explain what the Gitksan  law is with respect to trespass on the chiefs'  territories?  A  In the chiefs' houses we have our laws, our laws  concerning the boundaries.  Each chief knows his own  boundaries and this is held in their house.  They know  where their boundaries are and they know that no one  could trespass on a different boundary.  They mention  these boundaries in the feast hall, and they have  chiefs and other Gitksan people listening to him and  they are witnessing this while he describes his — the  boundary of his territory.  They never had anything as  a registration of the land.  The white people came and  they came with this registration of the territories,  and they promised that they would protect this  territory if it was registered.  The — our people have our laws within the  territories.  Our law is that if a person has  trespassed on your land and he has been warned and the  third time he is caught there, he will be killed  instantly.  When the person is caught, what happens,  the owner of the land will paint his face black.  Q  Indicating across the face in a diagonal form, for the  record. 198  S. Williams (for Plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Grant  1  A  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  Q  10  11  12  13  A  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  Q  22  23  A  24  25  26  27  Q  28  A  29  30  Q  31  32  33  34  35  A  36  37  38  39  Q  40  41  A  42  43  Q  44  A  45  Q  46  A  47  And he will kill the trespasser on that — that is  caught, if he doesn't listen to the warnings.  The white people came and they have this  registration.  They forced this registration on our  people, and it caused — this has caused so much  trouble between our people because they would register  a trapline on somebody else's territory, and which is  really confusing to our own people.  Now yesterday you talked about some of the things that  have happened on your territory.  Have you been  involved in assisting any of the other chiefs to  protect their territory in the very recent past?  All the chiefs have power and authority concerning  their territories.  It's just the same as what the  laws of the — it's similar to the laws of the white  people.  In the chief's house we have our laws that  we — we follow, and it's the same with the other  chiefs.  Whenever there is a problem with the  territories, then they all would come together and try  to help each others out.  Can you give an example of this where you've come  together with other chiefs to protect the territory?  I am very familiar with all the territories around  Gitwingax and the Gitsegukla area, and when there is a  problem with any of these territories, they always  come to me and they ask me for my advice.  Okay.  One —  And I tell them — they ask me what they should do,  and I tell them.  Okay.  Once again, I'm asking you, can you give an  example of that, when one chief or. a group of chiefs  has come to you for advice, and that you have  participated in helping them to protect their  territory?  It happens, I've given advice so many times.  And at  one time when Luulak had problems with his territory,  they came to me and they told me about it and I went  with them to Luulak's territory.  Can you tell me when that was that Luulak came to you  and what happened?  I am not too sure of what date it was.  I think it was  in March when this happened.  Of this year, just this last month?  Yes, this year.  Okay, go ahead.  We went to Luulak's territory because there was  company there that was logging off of Luulak's 199  S. Williams (for Plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Grant  1 territory.  It was clear to us that — that they  2 were — they were trespassing, because they never came  3 to Luulak and they never asked Luulak's permission to  4 log on this territory.  5 MR. PLANT: Before the witness continues, Mr. Grant, I've made  6 an objection during the course of trial when witnesses  7 have given evidence of this nature concerning events  8 that are of recent occurrence.  I repeat that  9 objection now.  10 MR. GRANT:  And I — just for the record, my recollection is  11 that that objection was — that the evidence was  12 allowed in, although it may have been allowed in  13 subject to the objection.  The evidence was let —  14 MR. PLANT:  I'm not sure.  15 MR. GRANT:  The evidence was allowed in over your objection.  16 MR. PLANT:  That's right.  So I'm not saying that the witness  17 should stop giving this evidence, although I don't see  18 how it can remotely assist his case.  But carry on.  19 MR. GRANT:  20 Q  Go ahead.  21 A  The people — the persons that have the name Luulak  22 and Dax Juxw were young people and this is the reason  23 why they came to me.  And I had — as a chief, I had  24 the authority to — to talk on their behalf.  25 We travelled towards Luulak's land and then we  26 came upon the territory, Luulak's territory.  And'  27 we — we stood on the way of the loggers, and these  28 two young people, Luulak and Dax Juxw, I showed them  29 the boundary that was there of Luulak's territory.  30 They wanted to know where the boundary was, so this is  31 where — what I showed them.  This was early in the  32 morning.  33 We — the loggers start coming and we — we stood  34 on the way, and they stopped and I went and I asked  3 5 them, "What are you people up to?" The person that I  36 talked to turned around and he went back to Terrace,  37 and not too long after that the Mounties, the police  38 came.  He was — he escorted one of the foresters to  3 9 this site.  They started counting how many of us were  40 there, and then they tried to chase us off the land.  41 And they told us this was Crown land, and I said,  42 "This is not Crown land, it's not Crown land yet.  It  43 hasn't been bought from our — our people.  We have  44 spent so much for this territory since time begun.  45 We've spent so much for this territory and nobody has  46 bought this territory from us and it's still ours  47 today."  I told them that I wasn't the real — I 200  S. Williams (for Plaintitfs)  In chief by Mr. Grant  1 wasn't the legal owner of the land and that I was only  2 chosen to be the witness for these two young people,  3 and really Dax Juxw was the person that was supposed  4 to have spoken to these people.  Dax Juxw started  5 talking to the forester and to the policeman, and she  6 talked for awhile and then the policeman and the  7 forester turned around and went back to Terrace.  8 The — there was people arriving from Gitwingax*  9 they were young people, and one of them was the band  10 manager, and the band manager gave these people to  11 take their equipments off within 24 hours, and that  12 the — that the logs would be left there.  It  13 rightfully belongs to Luulak.  14 Q  And were the logs left there?  15 A  Yes.  Yes, sir, it's still there now.  16 Q  Can you tell me who — I think Dax Juxw is, who holds  17 that name?  18 A  Darlene Morgan.  19 Q  And who holds the name Luulak?  20 A  Sandra Williams.  21 Q  That's the wife of Gary Williams?  22 A  Yeah.  23 MR. GRANT:  Maybe we'll take an adjournment now.  24  25 (PROCEEDINGS ADJOURNED at 11:00 a.m.)  26 (PROCEEDINGS RECONVENED AT 11:15 a.m.)  27  28 MR. GRANT:  29 Q  Gwis gyen, I want to read to you from a document in  30 the court case which is a proposed change to the  31 defence of the province, and this is the paragraph 39B  32 which is in the application of the provincial  33 defendant to amend, which was delivered to me on  34 Monday morning.  35 Now, this is what they say, they say — the  36 province says that:  37  38 "Acts — "  39  40 And I'll have this translated.  41  42 "— on the part of the Crown which the  43 Plaintiffs —"  44  45 That is the chiefs.  46  47 "— allege to be wrongful (started or) commenced 201  S. Williams (for Plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Grant  1 prior to 1871, and since then the Crown including  2 this Defendant —"  3  4 That is the province.  5  6 "— has continued such...acts in exercise of...  7 sovereign jurisdiction to the knowledge of the  8 Plaintiffs —"  9  10 That is the chiefs.  11  12 "— and their ancestors evidenced by...the  13 expenditure of public funds —"  14  15 That is the spending of public monies.  16  17 "— the granting  of   rights  to third parties  —"  18  19 That would be issuing licences or lots to somebody  20 other than the hereditary chiefs.  21  22 "— and the regulation of the exercise (of those  23 rights) in a manner inconsistent with the alleged  24 rights of ownership and jurisdiction claimed by  25 the (hereditary chiefs)."  26 - .  ...  27 Now maybe I will just have you read that and it's the  28 part in brackets, translate that to the witness,  29 please, and then I will go on before I ask you a  30 question.  Do you see where it starts there?  31 THE INTERPRETER:  Um-hmm.  32 MR. GRANT:  Have you just gone on to the bracket?  33 THE INTERPRETER:  No, I went on.  34 MR. GRANT: Where have you read to? Just go on.  35 THE INTERPRETER:  No, I read all of it, yeah.  36 MR. GRANT:  37 Q  Okay.  Just for the record, the interpreter  38 anticipated me, and I will go on to say the  39 plaintiff — this is what else was translated:  40  41 "The Plaintiffs and their ancestors —"  42  43 That is the hereditary chiefs and their ancestors.  44  45 "— having knowledge of the...exercise of  46 sovereign jurisdiction have on many occasions too  47 numerous to particularize acquiesced (or agreed 202  S. Williams (for Plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Grant  1 to) this Defendant's sovereign jurisdiction by  2 seeking and receiving benefits, licences, grants,  3 and protection from Her."  4  5 That is, from the Crown.  6  7 "By delaying the commencement (or the start) of  8 this action the Plaintiffs —"  9  10 That is the chiefs.  11  12 "— and their ancestors have obtained the benefits  13 of such licences, grants and protection and the  14 benefits of expenditures of public funds (by the  15 defendant, by the province)."  16  17 Now, I would like you to comment on what — why  18 the hereditary chiefs, the plaintiffs, and  19 particularly yourself have been involved, if you have,  20 in getting licences or grants — licences from the  21 province, and on — comment on what the provincial  22 defendant is saying here, if that's true, as far as  23 you know?  24 MR. PLANT:  Before you answer that there is one ambiguity or  25 area that I have some concern with.  You have — you,.  26 Mr. Grant, have used the term "hereditary chiefs" as ••■  27 being the same as the plaintiffs.  I think it would be  28 our intention in all parts of the Statement of  29 Defence, that plaintiffs in the action include not  30 only the named hereditary chiefs, but those that they  31 represent.  32 MR. GRANT:  Yes.  There are other hereditary chiefs that they  33 represent, for example, chiefs of other houses that  34 they represent.  35 MR. PLANT:  I — it goes further than that.  It includes all the  36 Gitksan and Wet'suwet'en people.  37 MS. KOENIGSBERG:  Except for the Kitwancool.  38 MR. GRANT:  Oh, so what — okay.  What Mr. Plant has just said  39 is wherever it says "plaintiffs" here — wherever it  40 says "plaintiffs" here, they are referring to the  41 Gitksan hereditary chiefs, the wings of the chief in  42 the houses and all the members of the houses.  So it  43 refers to all of the Gitksan people and the  44 Wet'suwet'en, but I'm not referring here to the  45 Wet'suwet'en.  46 MR. PLANT:  Except the Kitwancool.  47 MR. GRANT:  Except the Kitwancool.  So, can you comment on — do 203  S. Williams (for Plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Grant  1 you agree with what the province says here, that you  2 and that your grandfather, that the other Gitksan  3 chiefs have agreed or consented to the jurisdiction of  4 the province over your territories through receiving  5 public monies and receiving licences?  6 MR. PLANT: Well, I'm going to object to that question, because  7 the question of whether or not the acts that are said  8 to constitute acquiescence — do constitute  9 acquiescence is a question of law.  I mean the  10 relevant factual question is whether the various acts  11 described — and I'm sorry, I don't have a copy of the  12 proposed pleading — but whether those acts have  13 occurred or not is the issue.  If they have occurred,  14 then as I understand, going from memory, it is the  15 province's allegation that those acts constitute as a  16 matter of law, acquiescence.  This witness' comment or  17 response to whether or not such acts could constitute  18 acquiescence can't be relevant.  19 MR. GRANT:  I'm not asking whether they constitute acquiescence,  20 but the evidence of the circumstances surrounding any  21 of these occurrences relate to the question of  22 acquiescence, and I take — I take a position  23 different than you.  Acquiescence is not solely an  24 issue of law, it's an issue of evidence and facts as  25 well as of law.  26 MR. PLANT:  Oh, I quite agree acquiescence is an issue of fact •  27 as well as law.  28 MR. GRANT: Well I'm focusing on the fact —  29 MR. PLANT:  But I didn't hear your most recent question to the  30 witness to be asking about facts.  I heard the  31 question to be, "Can you comment on whether these acts  32 are acquiescence or not?"  33 MR. GRANT:  No.  34 MR. PLANT:  And if that's not your question, if there is some  35 other question, then I quite agree there is lots of  36 scope for examination arising out of that.  37 MR. GRANT: Just for the record, of course, asking this witness  38 is not acceding to whether or not this pleading — you  39 should be allowing — the amendment should be allowed.  40 But in anticipation that it may be allowed, whether we  41 object to it or not, I believe I should have the right  42 to examine this witness on it.  I'm not consenting —  43 MR. PLANT:  I agree.  44 MR. GRANT:  — consenting that this amendment be allowed.  45 MR. PLANT:  That's fine.  You are saying that the province would  46 like to make a claim that is yet — not yet a claim in  47 this lawsuit, but even though it's not yet claimed in 204  S. Williams (for Plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Grant  1 the lawsuit formally, you want to ask what — the  2 witness certain questions about the claim that is  3 being made.  4 MR. GRANT:  You are applying to amend your defence.  5 MR. PLANT:  I don't have any objection to proper questions  6 arising out of that.  7 MR. GRANT:  Okay.  Now, can you read back the last question that  8 I said before Mr. Plant's objection.  9 (LAST QUESTION READ BACK)  10 MR. PLANT:  Sorry to interrupt again, but to me that question is  11 objectionable.  I'm going to allow it to be answered,  12 but to me it's just the same as asking a plaintiff in  13 a personal injury action if the defendant was  14 negligent.  If the defendant wasn't — if defendant  15 was drunk and was driving over the speed limit on the  16 wrong side of the road, do you agree that he was  17 negligent? I don't seen any difference in principle  18 between that —  19 MR. GRANT:  20 Q  Okay, your objection is noted, I think your objection  21 is noted.  I want the witness to answer the question.  22 A  In the beginning we have our own laws that was — that  23 was used — that was used by our own people, the  24 Gitksan people, aluugigyet.  These laws were used and  25 after the arrival of the white people, they forced us  26 to use their laws, they pushed their laws onto us:  27 And also, the licence, the permits that was given to  28 us, that was forced on us too, because we never did  29 need these licence before the arrival of the white  30 people.  The white people have always tried to make us  31 follow their ways, and they don't realize that we have  32 our own laws and our own ways, and now they say this  33 is — this land belongs to the Crown.  This is not  34 true, because the Crown never did — never bought this  35 land from us.  When the Queen usually comes, she only  36 goes to Edmonton, to Winnipeg, she never comes here  37 and sees the way — takes in the way we are living,  38 our customs, our traditions, she doesn't see these  39 things.  And it's not for us to give our land away to  40 her, this is our land, not hers.  As long as we live  41 we will always fight for our land, we will always have  42 our land.  We have our — the laws of our ancestors  43 and aluugigyet, and we've always — we've always had  44 this law and we are going to put it into action.  45 Q  Under the Gitksan law, can you, Gwis gyen, sell your  46 territory?  47 A  No, I could not. 205  S. Williams (for Plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Grant  1 Q  I just have one other question to ask you, and that  2 is, can you explain why you, Gwis gyen, as a Gitksan  3 chief on behalf of your house, took the province to  4 court in this court case?  5 A  The reason why we have this court case is to fight for  6 our land and to get it back.  It is rightfully ours.  7 We want the white people to set us free on our own  8 territory.  We could do anything on our territory,  9 whatever we want, and I do not want any licence,  10 permits or registration.  We do not want that, and  11 this is why we are in the court case.  12 We have our own territories, this is where we —  13 this is where we — how we make our living.  And today  14 what the loggers have done, they've taken all the  15 trees off our territory, and they've never ever had  16 the permission from any of the simgigyet, the chiefs,  17 to go on their territory.  And we have spent so much  18 for our territories in the feast house.  We want the  19 government to pay all the damages that have been  20 caused on our — that they have caused on our  21 territories.  22 The money that they give us through grants  23 actually really comes from our land, and they say that  24 they — they are helping us out.  This money comes  25 from our territories which they call grants.  It's the  26 same with the fishing licence.  This what I — what we  27 pay for, we have to pay for these licence to fish, and  28 this is our territory along the Skeena.  The people  29 have to fish for survival for the winter, and they're  30 running this by permits and licence.  I spent $800 in  31 order to fish down the coast, and yet it's our own  32 waters.  The fish that I — that are coming into that  33 water is from the — from the waters of the Skeena  34 River, and this is where the fish come from.  35 MR. GRANT:  Okay, Stanley, those are all the questions I have of  36 you, and now Mr. Plant, the lawyer for the province is  37 going to ask you some questions and then Ms.  38 Koenigsberg, the lawyer here for Canada is going to  39 ask you some questions.  Do you want to — we can go  40 ahead now until twelve o'clock with Mr. Plant's  41 questions, if you would like, or do you want to stop  42 now and start a little earlier after lunch?  43 THE WITNESS:  I'm not afraid of anything.  44 MR. GRANT:  Okay.  We'll go ahead till noon then, I think.  45 THE WITNESS:  The government is just like a grizzly and I'm  46 still standing there.  47 MR. PLANT: What was that? 206  S. Williams (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Plant  1 THE WITNESS: When a grizzly bear gets into the provisions of  2 another person then he eats it up, and when the owner  3 comes back then the grizzly gets mad instead, gets mad  4 at the owner.  And that's how the government is  5 treating us today concerning our territories.  6  7 CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR. PLANT:  8 Q  Gwis gyen, I want to ask you some questions about the  9 name of your house, the house that you are from.  10 A  'Yax 'yagaa huuwaalp is the name of my house.  11 Q  And was this — this was a house in the village of  12 Gitsegukla?  13 A  Yes.  14 Q  Did you ever see this house in your lifetime?  15 A  No.  They were all down when I was born.  My uncle  16 calls my house today 'Yax 'yagaa huuwaalp, the house  17 I'm living in today.  At his house warming, that name  18 was given to the house he is living in today.  19 Q  Which uncle was that?  20 A  Hax bagwootxw but he has passed on already.  21 Q  Was that Arthur McDames?  22 A  Yes.  23 Q  Now there is a document which your lawyers prepared  24 that is called a Statement of Claim, and it's the  25 document which has all of the claims that the  26 hereditary chiefs make in this action, and I want'to-  27 refer you to paragraph nine of the Statement of Claim,  28 which says, "The Plaintiff, Gwis gyen, is the  29 hereditary chief of the House of Hax bagwootxw."  30 MR. GRANT:  Did you want the rest of it read to him? There is  31 more after that.  32 MR. PLANT:  33 Q  Well I — all — the question I want to ask you is —  34 A  I am the head chief of this — of this house, Gwis  35 gyen's house.  Hax bagwootxw is my nephew, and before  36 that, Hax bagwootxw was my uncle who was Arthur  37 McDames.  3 8        Q  Is that description of your house in paragraph nine of  39 the Statement of Claim correct?  40 MR. GRANT:  In which way do you mean?  41 MR. PLANT:  The description of Gwis gyen as hereditary chief of  42 the house of Hax bagwootxw.  43 MR. GRANT:  So the description of the house of Hax bagwootxw is  44 what you are asking; is that right?  45 MR. PLANT:  No.  The question is, is the description — are the  46 words that — I'm sorry, I'm going to have to ask for  47 it back. 207  S. Williams (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Plant  1 MR. GRANT:  I want it clear as to what's being asked.  2 MR. PLANT:  3 Q  It says here in paragraph nine that, "Gwis gyen is the  4 hereditary chief of the House of Hax bagwootxw."  Is  5 that correct?  6 A  This is Gwis gyen's house and Hax bagwootxw is in the  7 same house, but he is a wing in Gwis gyen's house,  8 this is what the white people call wing.  9 Q  What is the term in Gitksan which you use that the  10 white people call "wing"?  11 A  Luu sdo'o wilp.  12 MS. KOENIGSBERG:  Could I have a spelling of that.  13 THE TRANSLATOR:  759.  14 MR. PLANT:  15 Q  Now Mr. Williams, I understand that you were born on  16 the third of July, 1907; is that correct?  17 A  Yes.  18 Q  How do you know your birth date?  19 A  Are you crazy on that? My mother tells me my birthday  20 I am born on.  21 Q  So your mother told you?  22 A  Yeah.  23 Q  You were born at Balmoral Cannery?  24 A  Yes.  25 Q  Where is that, place?  26 A  Coast.  The cannery was at Exkstall.  27 MR.   PLANT:     I   don't  know  —  28 MR.   GRANT:      E-X-K-S-T-A-L-L  2 9 MS. KOENIGSBERG:  E-X — sorry?  30 MR. GRANT:  Just to clarify — are you referring to where the  31 Ecstall River?  32 A  The — our people call it Luu 'min xsdol.  The white  33 people can't pronounce it so they call it Ecstall.  34 MR. PLANT:  35 Q  Is that close to Prince Rupert?  36 A  No, it's a bit far.  This is at the mouth of the  37 Skeena.  38 Q  Was your father a commercial fisherman?  39 A  Yes.  He started when the cannery — there was the  40 first cannery there.  41 Q  Was your father's name Joseph or George Williams?  42 A  Joseph Williams.  43 Q  Do you know what year your father and mother were  44 married?  45 A  No, I don't.  46 Q  Have you ever been taught how — what the Gitksan law  47 is regarding marriages? 208  S. Williams (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Plant  1 A  Yes, they told me.  2 Q  Who told you?  3 A  My grandfather.  Before there is a marriage, the  4 parents of the young man will go and talk to the  5 parents of the young woman.  The father will talk with  6 the young lady's father and the mother of the young  7 man will talk to the young lady's mother.  If they  8 would allow this marriage, if they've given their  9 permission for their daughter to get married, then  10 they would tell the parents of the young man.  Then  11 the relatives of the young man, the young relatives,  12 the girls and the boys, they — this is the — they  13 go — they get together, they gather together and then  14 they go and this is known as misows.  What they do is  15 they — they have materials that they will give to the  16 mother and the father of the young girl.  17 It was a really — this is real serious business  18 for two young people to be married in the Gitksan law.  19 Today it's not like that, it's not like that with the  20 white people.  What they do is they just kiss and then  21 they say they are married.  22 Q  Was there a feast for the marriage in the old times?  23 A  Yes, they have a very big feast.  The relatives of the  24 young man are the ones that are hosting the chiefs,  25 they are hosting the chiefs for the relatives of the '  26 young woman.  And this is how they go through with  27 their marriage.  28 Q  Is there a name for that kind of feast?  29 A  Liligidim simimnaks.  30 MR. GRANT:  Can you put a spelling on that, please.  31 THE TRANSLATOR:  Liligidim simimnaks, L-I-L-I-G-I-D-I-M space  32 S-I-M-I-M-N-A-K-S.  33 MR. PLANT:  34 Q  Does the word liligidim describe or mean feast?  35 MR. GRANT:  Do you want the interpreter to translate or —  36 MR. PLANT:  37 Q  I don't care.  Mr. Williams probably knows as well as  38 the interpreter, but —  39 A  Yes.  40 Q  When you and your wife Fanny were married, Mr.  41 Williams, was that an arranged marriage in the way  42 that you've just described?  43 A  Yes, we went through this, but the government gave us  44 a licence.  We went through with the simgigyet law,  45 our law, but the — but they gave us a licence which  46 we paid for.  47 Q  Nowadays when young Gitksan people are married, does 209  S. Williams (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Plant  1 the liligidim simimnaks still take place?  2 A Yes, it's still the same.  They had a wedding, the  3 daughter of Norman Johnson, and this is what they did.  4 Q When was that, I'm sorry?  5 A Didn't I say last week?  6 Q Thank you.  What house is Norma — or Norman Johnson's  7 daughter?  8 A She is from the house of Gwaans or Hanamuxw.  9 Q Was this an arranged marriage in the sense that you've  10 described?  11 MR. GRANT: Which, the daughter of Norman Johnson?  12 MR. PLANT:  13 Q Yes.  14 A  No.  She married a white person.  15 Q  Now, in the old days did the marriage itself take  16 place at the feast?  17 A  It was after the wedding that they have a feast.  18 Q  And where would the wedding take place?  19 A  It would be — it would take place at the house of the  20 chiefs that the young man belongs to.  21 Q  Where do the weddings take place today?  22 A  Today — when they — if they would — if they are  23 going to use the community hall today, I would say  24 if — let's say if one of my children got married and  25 we would use the hall at Gitwingax* and I would say, >  26 "This is the house of Gwis gyen." ''  27 Q  And would the wedding itself take place in the church?  28 A  Yes, today.  29 MR. PLANT:  I'm about to change the subject.  Perhaps this would  30 be a convenient moment to adjourn for lunch.  31 MR. GRANT:  Yes.  32  33 (PROCEEDINGS  ADJOURNED AT  12:00  p.m.)  34 (PROCEEDINGS  RECONVENED  AT 1:30  p.m.)  35  36 MR.   PLANT:  37 Q  Mr. Williams, there is one thing that I am still a  38 little confused by even though you've told us about it  39 once or twice at least already.  You told us that your  40 mother was adopted into another house, and I still am  41 unclear.  Was she adopted into the house of Sakxum  42 higookx or was she adopted into the house of Sakxum  43 higookx's wife?  44 A  Sakxum higookx's wife.  45 Q  Do you know what house Sakxum higookx's wife came  46 from?  47 A  It's been a long time, I don't remember. 210  S. Williams (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Plant  1 Q  Do you remember if she was from Gitwingax or  2 Kitwancool?  3 MR. GRANT: Who, when you say "he"?  4 MR. PLANT:  5 Q  I said "she" and I meant Sakxum higookx's wife?  6 A  It's too long a time, I just — I — they just told me  7 this, I wasn't even born at that time.  8 Q  When you were told of this, were you told of what kind  9 of adoption this was?  10 A  When the adoption was done there was a big feast  11 because these people were both chiefs, Sakxum higookx  12 and his wife, and they had a big feast.  This — at  13 this feast they announced that they adopt this person.  14 Today — it's not like the adoption of a white person,  15 you just sign papers, it's not like — it wasn't like  16 that.  17 Q  Is there a Gitksan name for the kind of adoption that  18 took place between your mother and Sakxum higookx's  19 wife?  20 A  It's known as Sihlguuhlxws diit.  21 THE TRANSLATOR:  1024.  22 MR. GRANT: What number was that, 1024?  23 MR. PLANT:  24 Q  1024 was the number that she gave.  25 When this kind of adoption takes place, using your  26 mother as the example, did your mother leave the house  27 of Gwis gyen?  28 A  No, she didn't leave.  She was always counted in Gwis  29 gyen's house.  30 Q  After the adoption took place, would your mother also  31 have been counted in the new house?  32 MR. GRANT: Just one moment.  I think that you are operating  33 under — you are operating under a potential  34 assumption that leads this whole series of questions  35 to error, which your assumption is that the adoption  36 was out of Gwis gyen's house and into another house.  37 That's — that's a built-in assumption as I —  38 MR. PLANT:  Then let me — he said it's been too long a time and  39 so I've been assuming that he — because he wasn't  40 able to tell me what house his mother was adopted  41 into, that there wasn't much point.  But I agree  42 that's an assumption that is built in.  43 MR. GRANT:  It just may lead to a misleading series of answers.  44 And a lot of redirect that may be otherwise not  45 necessary.  46 MR. PLANT:  47 Q      Do you  know whether  Sakxum higookx's wife was a 211  S. Williams (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Plant  1 fireweed?  2 A  It's been too long.  What happens when an adoption  3 occurs, if — if that chief is in a different clan and  4 the person that's adopted is in a different clan, what  5 happens is the chief that's adopting this person will  6 stay in the same clan.  7 Q  If the chief who adopts someone —  8 A  Okay, an example of Sakxum higookx —  9 MR. GRANT:  Just a second, is that — are you translating his  10 answer?  11 THE INTERPRETER:  He is referring back to Sakxum higookx because  12 he was a different, like —  13 MR. GRANT:  I just want — Madam Interpreter, the only reason —  14 I just want to be clear that if you are saying  15 something —  16 THE INTERPRETER:  Okay I —  17 MR. GRANT:  — as an explanation that it's the witnesses words,  18 because it's all being recorded.  19 THE INTERPRETER:  Yeah, I'll ask him.  20 A  Yes, Sakxum higookx was in the Lax skiik clan and his  21 mother was in the Gisk'aast clan, and I don't know his  22 wife's clan.  And Sakxum higookx was Lax skiik and his  23 mother was Gisk'aast.  24 MR. GRANT: Whose mother?  25 THE INTERPRETER:  Stanley's mother was Gisk'aast and she stayed  26 Gisk'aast.  27 A  When my mother passed on she never took anything that  28 belonged to their house, their — like the — the  29 things that belong to Sakxum higookx.  30 MR. PLANT:  31 Q  What I'm having trouble understanding is why did your  32 mother acquire any relationship with Sakxum higookx as  33 a result of this adoption? When — and the reason I'm  34 having trouble understanding that is that you tell me  3 5 that she was adopted into the house in Sakxum  36 higookx*s wife.  Now, you can't remember what that  37 house is, but did — did the adoption — let me ask  38 you this question:  Did your mother's adoption give  39 her certain rights or privileges in the house of  40 Sakxum higookx?  41 A  She — she is — she has the rights to go on the  42 territory of Sakxum higookx, but this is when she is  43 alive.  She cannot pass it on after her death.  44 Q  And by "she" you are referring to your mother?  45 A  To the mother.  46 Q  Would she also have acquired the rights to go on the  47 territory of Sakxum higookx's wife? 212  S. Williams (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Plant  1 A  Yes, it's the same.  2 Q  Now, as I understand it, usually Sakxum higookx and  3 his wife would be from different clans; is that  4 correct?  5 A       In  our  law   it's —  the  simgigyet don't marry   their  own  6 relatives,   they have  to be from different  clans.     And  7 we are not  like  the white people that marry  their  own  8 kind.  9 Q  And there is a name for what the kind of marriage when  10 someone marries from their own clan, it's the K'aats'  11 marriage?  12 A  Yes, it's K'aats*.  In ancient times it was quite  13 dangerous to do this because our people would kill the  14 persons that done this.  15 Q  When you told us the adaawk of Wiigyet, you told us  16 that Wiigyet and his sister were perhaps married or at  17 least close to each other.  Would that have been a  18 X'aats' relationship?  19 A  Yes, they did have — they were really close, they did  20 have the same mother.  And this was the reason why  21 they were going to get these poles, they sharpened  22 these poles and they were going to put up the rectum  23 of the woman and also the man, and this is how they  24 were going to make them suffer because of what they've  25 done.  26 Q  When your mother was adopted by Sakxum higookx's Wife,-  27 did that mean that your mother's children would have  28 any rights or privileges over Sakxum higookx's  29 territory?  30 A  When my mother was adopted, she didn't have any  31 children yet.  But after she was with — she was  32 married to my father, then she had children and then I  33 had the rights to go on Sakxum higookx's territory.  34 But what I had to do first was to have permission from  35 Sakxum higookx before I walked on his territory.  36 Q  And did the right to go on Sakxum higookx's territory  37 with permission end with Sakxum higookx's death?  38 A  We travelled on his — Sakxum higookx's territory when  39 he was alive but we couldn't do it after his death.  40 Q  Is there a kind of adoption where the person who is  41 being adopted leaves his or her old house behind and  42 becomes a full member of the new house?  43 A  With the — with me I could do this providing that  44 that person is from — is a Gisk_'aast clan, I could  45 take him — adopt him and take him into my own house.  46 Q  Could you take someone from another clan into your own  47 house? 213  S. Williams (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Plant  1 A  I could do if they were in the same clan, but — and I  2 could do it if they were my wife's relatives.  3 Q  When you say your wife's relatives, are you referring  4 to people from your wife's clan?  5 A  This is an example of what I did:  I took in Buddy, my  6 son — this was Fanny — my wife's sister's son, and  7 we took him in and we brought him up in Gwis gyen's  8 house, and he goes by the name of — his last name is  9 Williams, and he had the name Haalus.  10 MR. GRANT:  If you have a moment I want to go off the record.  11 MR. PLANT:  Yes.  12 MR. GRANT:  But if you are in the middle of a question —  13 MR. PLANT:  14 Q  Well, let me just make sure that I have one thing  15 here.  16 Did you — did you say that Buddy Williams was  17 the son of your wife's sister, of Fanny's sister? And  18 by that I mean, was your son — was Buddy Williams  19 born to the sister of your wife?  20 A  How many times am I going to say this? This was my  21 wife's sister's son and we took him and brought him up  22 in the house.  23 MR. PLANT:  Yes, you wanted to go off the record, Mr. Grant?  24 MR. GRANT:  Okay, have you finished? Can we go off the record a  25 moment, please.  26 (OFF THE RECORD DISCUSSION)  27 MR. PLANT:  2 8 Q  Can you tell me, please, Gwis gyen, why your mother  29 was adopted by Sakxum higookx's wife?  30 A  Sakxum higookx and his wife never had children.  31 Q  Under Gitksan law would Sakxum higookx and his wife  32 have had to pay money to your mother's house for that  33 adoption to take place?  34 A  Every adoption that — every adoption that occurs  35 within — with the Gitksan people, there is always a  36 feast held and this is where it's announced, because  37 there are people — there are witnesses there that  38 witness this feast and the adoption that's taking  39 place.  And this is what happens, they have a feast,  40 and I said this before.  41 Q  And when they have feasts — when they have a feast,  42 Sakxum higookx and his wife will pay the expenses?  43 A  A child couldn't put the feast up themselves —  44 herself, so whoever called the feast will have to pay  45 for a feast.  46 Q  And in a case of an adoption, this adoption of your  47 mother, who would call the feast? 214  S. Williams (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Plant  1 A  Sakxum higookx and his wife adopted my mother and they  2 were the ones that put up the feast.  After the death  3 of Sakxum higookx and his wife, my mother returned  4 back to her own house.  5 Q  Well, I'm confused again, because I thought you had  6 told me that she never left the house of Gwis gyen.  7 MR. GRANT:  Maybe you should ask the question in terms of  8 clarifying whether — he may mean that she physically  9 moved from one place to another as moving in  10 membership.  I think there is a problem — you may  11 want to clarify that.  12 MR. PLANT:  13 Q  Well, one problem is that "house" refers to a building  14 and "house" also refers to a group of people.  15 When you said that after Sakxum higookx died your  16 mother moved back or went back to her own house, did  17 you mean that she physically moved?  18 A  She returned.  The chiefs had houses, and she returned  19 to the house of Gwis gyen.  20 Q  By that do you mean that the house in which Gwis gyen  21 lived?  22 A  It's my house, Gwis gyen's house, the house that's  23 known as 'Yax 'yagaa huuwaalp.  24 Q  Did Sak — Sakxum higookx who adopted your mother, was  25 he still alive in your lifetime?  26 A  I think you asked me about three times and I've never  27 seen this Sakxum higookx.  I only see the Sakxum  28 higookx known as Nicodemus.  29 Q  Nicodemus, was he the Sakxum higookx after the Sakxum  30 higookx whose wife adopted your mother?  31 A  Yes.  That was the Sakxum higookx that took the name  3 2 after my mother's father, Sakxum higookx.  33 Q  Now, I'm going to change the subject, but I don't  3 4 pretend that I understand adoption any better than I  35 did before.  But I want to ask you —  36 MR. GRANT:  Is that an admission?  37 A  I like to adopt you after this court.  38 MR. GRANT:  But you still won't know what house you are in.  39 MS. KOENIGSBERG:  Or who your father is.  40 MR. GRANT:  Or where you came from.  41 MR. PLANT:  42 Q  Or where I came from.  I won't know my house  43 physically or — but just for that, I may come back  44 and ask you some more questions about adoption later.  45 But right now I want to ask you about your brothers  46 and sisters.  47 You — I think that your genealogy, which is 215  S. Williams (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Plant  1 Exhibit 6, says you had eight brothers and sisters.  2 MR. GRANT:  Ten — yeah.  3 A  Yes.  4 MR. PLANT:  5 Q  And I'm not here including Harriot or Alvin Weget,  6 because that would mean asking you some more questions  7 about adoption.  8 THE INTERPRETER:  He says these two are easy.  9 MR. GRANT:  Pointing to Harriot and Alvin Weget.  10 MR. PLANT:  11 Q  Are all your brothers and sisters, have they all  12 passed on?  13 A  Yeah.  14 Q  Did you have a brother, George?  15 A  Yes.  He has passed on.  16 Q  The genealogy makes it appear that you have two  17 brothers, Percy and Robert.  Did either of them go by  18 the name George?  19 A  No.  He said George is another brother.  20 Q  Has George passed away?  21 A  He is passed on four years ago.  22 Q  Was George the natural son of your mother, Mary  23 Williams?  24 A  My mother, Mary Williams and Marianne — my mother  25 Mary and Eva Fowler were sisters, and Marianne had —  26 and this was Mary — Eva Fowler's daughter was  27 Marianne and she had George, and my mother adopted  28 George.  They're all passed on.  29 MR. GRANT:  Could I just clarify that?  30 MR. PLANT:  Well I was about to try, but —  31 MR. GRANT:  I just wanted to clarify, was George's mother Eva or  32 Marianne?  33 A  Marianne.  34 MR. PLANT:  35 Q  That's exactly what I was going to ask.  So Eva had a  36 daughter named Marianne who had a son named George?  37 A  Yes, it is.  38 Q  And was — it's my — I've just had brought to my  39 attention, the existence of George Williams on page 5.  40 Was George the son of Marianne Fowler and George  41 Cunningham?  42 A  Right.  43 Q  And was he adopted — George Williams, was he adopted  44 by your mother?  45 A  Yes.  46 Q  And was that an adoption that had a feast or was it  47 some other kind of adoption? 216  S. Williams (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Plant  1 A  No, George was in our house already.  He was a member  2 in my house.  3 Q  So — I'm sorry, you just said something that should  4 be translated.  5 A  I'm going to end up in the mental institute because  6 you've been asking me the same questions over and over  7 again.  8 Q  Well, you say that George Williams was adopted by your  9 mother.  You really mean that your mother raised him?  10 A  Say that again.  11 Q  Well, Alice will say it in Gitksan.  12 A  My mother brought him up after his mother died,  13 George's mother died.  14 Q  Were you the youngest of your mother's children?  15 MR. GRANT:  Natural children?  16 MR. PLANT:  17 Q  Natural children?  18 A  No.  Percy is the youngest one.  Him and Robert are  19 both gone.  20 Q  Do you remember where you are in the order of birth?  21 Were you the oldest of your mother's natural born  22 children?  23 A  Connie was the oldest one and then there is Elsie and  24 me.  There is Nora, Robert and Percy.  The very first  25 one was Jane and Madelaine and Connie.  26 Q  Your sister Elsie had a child.  Did you ever know him?  27 A  Yes, I've — she was my sister and I know.  I seen the  28 boy, he was very — he was a baby, very small when he  2 9 died.  30 Q  Your sister Connie had a daughter named Gertie who has  31 passed on?  32 A  Yes.  33 Q  Did she grow to be an adult?  34 A  She was seven, about seven when she passed on.  35 Q  Where did Connie and Gertie live?  36 A  In a house in Gitwingax.  37 Q  Did Connie marry?  38 A  No.  She was supposed to have married Peter Brown but  39 they didn't get married.  Peter Brown is from  40 Hazelton.  41 Q  I didn't hear the second part of that?  42 A  Peter Brown is from Hazelton, here.  43 Q  Was Peter Brown Gitksan?  44 A  Yes.  45 Q  Did your sister Jane grow to be an adult?  46 A  She was quite small when she died.  They had measles  47 which went in the — in their stomach, and I had two 217  S. Williams (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Plant  1 sisters like this, Jane and another one, and they both  2 died with the measles.  3 Q  Now, the genealogy says that your sister Laura had two  4 children who passed away; is that correct?  5 A  Yes.  She had two children and I — I don't recall  6 their names, and their father was Charlie Sampare.  7 Q  How many children have you and your wife had, and by  8 this I mean natural children?  9 A  We didn't have any children.  We adopted Delores and  10 Buddy.  We had — I spent a lot of money when we  11 adopted these two children.  12 Q  When you say you spent a lot of money, are you  13 referring to a feast of some kind or just the expenses  14 of raising children?  15 A  This is when we went through the adoption, we had a  16 feast and we told the people these children belong to  17 us.  18 Q  Was Delores the daughter of your mother's sister —  19 sorry, of your wife's sister? Is Delores related the  20 same way as Buddy?  21 A  Delores' mother was Harriot, and that was my — my  22 niece, and this is the reason why she let me adopt  23 Delores.  She always remained Gisx'aast, Delores did.  24 She didn't go under my wife — wife's clan.  25 Q  Why did you adopt the children, Delores and Buddy,  26 because you didn't have any children of your own?  27 A  I told you just now that we never had any children and  28 this is the reason why we adopted Delores and Buddy.  29 Q  Mr. Grant referred you to — or referred us to the  30 fact that you had answered some questions called  31 interrogatories.  And in answer to interrogatory  32 number 18, which I am happy to put in front of you.  33 MR. GRANT:  Just one moment, could you, I just want to get this  34 away  35 MR.   PLANT:  36 Q  At the very last line of page 3, you say, "My children  37 are as follows," and then on page 4 there are four  38 children, and the second child is Delores Williams.  39 And you say there, "Delores Williams who was born  40 about 32 years ago, she was born in Prince Rupert, she  41 died two years ago." Is that correct?  42 A  Yes, she drowned.  43 Q  And was Delores born in Prince Rupert?  44 A  Yes.  45 Q  Was your niece Harriot living there at the time of her  46 birth?  47 A      Yes,   that's where she lives,   her  house  is  situated 218  S. Williams (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Plant  1  2  Q  3  A  4  Q  5  A  6  7  Q  8  9  10  11  12  13  A  14  15  16  Q  17  18  A  19  20  21  Q  22  A  23  24  Q  25  26  A  27  Q  28  29  30  31  32  A  33  Q  34  A  35  Q  36  A  37  Q  38  A  39  Q  40  A  41  Q  42  A  43  Q  44  45  A  46  47  Q  there.  Does Harriot still live there today?  Yes.  She lives in —  I beg your pardon?  She go live under the piers or near the ocean or  something like that.  The person identified as child number three is Buddy  Williams, and you've already told me about he — him.  The other two children are Clarence Johnson, and what  you said about Clarence is this:  "Clarence Johnson  born in Gitwingax 30 years ago, he lives in Kispiox."  Is Clarence Johnson one of your children?  I didn't say that.  I never said Clarence Johnson.  You talking about Clarence Johnson in Kispiox, I have  nothing to do with him.  You don't have a child, whether adopted or natural,  whose name is Clarence Johnson?  No.  I know a Clarence Johnson in Gitwingax, and this  is Nora's child with Stirling, and I never adopted  him.  What is Nora's last name?  After Stirling Johnson died she — she was Nora  Campbell.  Did Nora marry Joshua Campbell, the late Joshua  Campbell?  Yes, they were married.  The fourth person identified in the answer to  interrogatory 18 as one of your children is Myrtle  Johnson, and this is what you said: "Myrtle Johnson,  she is over 50 and lives in Kispiox.  She was born in  Gitwingax-" Was she — first translate that.  Yes, that's right, Myrtle is mine.  Now when you say "mine" —  Her mother died.  Who was Myrtle's mother?  Dora Johnson.  Nora?  Dora.  Dora.  Do you know what house or clan Dora is from?  The house of Malii.  Did you and your wife raise or adopt Myrtle Johnson?  No.  Maggie Johnson raised Myrtle.  Is there any connection between Myrtle Johnson and  your house, the house of Gwis gyen?  Oh, Dora was my first wife, Dora Johnson was my first  wife.  And would I  be  correct,   then,   in  saying  that after 219  S. Williams (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Plant  1 your first wife died, Myrtle was raised by Maggie?  2 Myrtle was raised by Maggie Johnson?  3 A  Yes, that's right.  4 Q  And was Myrtle your child?  5 MR. GRANT:  Just wonder what the relevance of all — I wonder  6 what the relevance of that particular point is, if  7 there is some relevance to it?  8 MR. PLANT:  About the last hour worth of my attempt to figure  9 out the difference between natural children and  10 adopted children, I would have thought that at this  11 point —  12 MR. GRANT: No.  You were talking about house members and you  13 were talking about who was in a house and who is  14 related, you have his answer on that.  I just wonder  15 what the relevance of it is as to his own children  16 from his first wife, if any.  I just — the only  17 reason is that —  18 MR. PLANT:  Identification — well I can only say this:  19 Identification of who it is that exactly is supposed  20 to be entitled to the relief claimed in this action is  21 about the most important question that I can think of,  22 I mean there is no more important question than that.  23 And to me, given that, identification of all persons  24 who are children of Gitksan people, whether they are  25 or are not children and what their connection is with  26 Gitksan houses seems to be so self-evident to be ' '  27 relevant that I wouldn't have thought it would cause  2 8 any problems.  29 MR. GRANT:  All of which you've got with respect to Myrtle  30 Johnson already.  You've got her natural mother,  31 you've got the woman who raised her, you've got all of  32 that material now.  You've got the house of which her  33 natural mother belongs.  34 MR. PLANT: Well, I think ~  35 MR. GRANT: When we are delving into this level of  36 individuality, we are going to have a commission  37 that's going to go on for several months.  38 MR. PLANT: We may, actually.  This witness has a lot of  39 knowledge about these things and I'm faced with the —  40 with the fact that it's been suggested that there are  41 some 6,000 persons who claim to own 22,000 square  42 miles of British Columbia or thereabouts, and I think  43 in those circumstances, some level of particularity is  44 an issue.  45 MR. GRANT:  I haven't objected to you for over an hour going  46 into that level of particularity.  I'm just saying  47 there has to be some point at which it stops, and I 220  S. Williams (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Plant  10 MR.   GRANT  11 MR.   PLANT  12 MR.   GRANT  1 think you've got identification of this person now.  2 MR. PLANT:  3 Q  Let me ask you this, Mr. Williams, can you identify  4 for me your natural children?  5 A  Myrtle is the only child that I have.  6 Q  And is Myrtle a member of the house of Malii?  7 A  Yell, I told you she was from there.  8 Q  When did — well, let me just see if I can find a way  9 to ask this.  Were you and Dora Johnson married?  In what way do you mean?  I beg your pardon?  How do you mean, "Were they married"? We've now got  13 marriage feasts, we've got — they had a child  14 together, obviously.  15 MR. PLANT: What I want to know, is not so much the fact of the  16 marriage as the time frame of the relationship,  17 because I want to see if I can put some of the events  18 of this witness's life into some sort of chronological  19 sequence.  And so it's not too important to me at this  20 point to know whether it was a marriage feast,  21 marriage, common-law relationship, an affair, a  22 marriage of a church, or any other kind of marriage.  23 MR. GRANT:  You want to know when they were together?  24 MR. PLANT:  Yes.  25 MR. GRANT:  I think that's the question you should ask.  26 MR. PLANT:  27 Q  When were you and Dora together?  28 A  It's a long, long time ago.  That was way before I  29 stayed with Fanny and married Fanny.  Dora passed on.  30 Q  And you said either yesterday or the day before that  31 you had been married to Fanny for 50 years; is that  32 correct?  33 MR. GRANT:  You said that this morning.  34 A  The Salvation Army has record of our marriage here,  35 and I — I — maybe it's 50 — over 50 years, I'm not  36 too sure.  37 MR.   GRANT:     Some people can't —  some men  can't  remember  when  38 they were married when  it was only  five years ago.  39 MR. PLANT:  40 Q  Did your wife, Fanny, come from Hazelton —  41 Gitan'maaxs?  42 A  Yes, she is from here.  This is where her mother and  43 father are from.  44 Q  You told us that her father, Tommy, had a ranch at  45 Miinhl Gwanks, and my spelling for that is M-I-N-H-L  46 space G-W-A-N-K-S.  47 A  Yes, I told you yesterday. 221  S. Williams (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Plant  1 Q  Where is Miinhl Gwanks, please?  2 A  As you are going up it's past the hall and it's on  3 your right-hand side.  4 MR. GRANT: Witness is pointing in the direction of the  5 Gitan'maaxs Community Hall from the building which we  6 are in.  7 MR. PLANT:  8 Q  When you say "the hall", what are you referring to,  9 Mr. Williams?  10 A  The community hall.  11 Q  And was it just up the hill near where the community  12 hall now is?  13 A  It's — that's — it's near there but it's on your  14 right — as you are going up it's on your right-hand  15 side.  You pass the community hall on that little hill  16 going up and it's on the right-hand side.  17 Q  What does the word minhl, M-I-N-H-L, mean in English,  18 if it has a meaning in English?  19 THE INTERPRETER:  Are you asking me or him?  20 MR. PLANT:  I don't care much.  21 THE INTERPRETER:  At the bottom of.  22 MR. PLANT:  23 Q  And what about gwanks, what does that word mean?  24 A  Spring.  25 Q  As a young boy, did you attend the Gitwingax day  26 school?  27 A  Yes, I went to the day school at Gitwingax, our  28 teacher's name was Miss Kemph (ph).  She showed me how  29 to — she showed me how to pick the mushrooms.  30 Q  How many years did you attend that school?  31 A  I was doing grade three, and my father got hurt so I  32 had to quit.  He fell from a — the roof of a house  33 and he fell on a board and it went in his chest.  34 Q  How old were you when you started fishing commercially  35 at the coast?  36 A  I first went out with my father when I was seven years  37 of age, he just used to tie me to the mast of the  38 sailboat.  39 Q  Have you commercially fished all your life since then?  40 A  I — it's been 16 — 68 years since I fished.  And I  41 fished for the — the Japanese and for Isaac Benson,  42 and I was 14 years old.  I was 14 years old when Tom  43 Wallace, the manager, gave me a sailboat of my own,  44 and I'm still doing it today.  45 Q  And you still have your own boat today?  46 A  Yes, I've got my own boat.  47 Q  You told us yesterday that your boat had cost you over 222  S. Williams (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Plant  1  2  3  4  A  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  Q  12  13  A  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  Q  29  30  A  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  Q  38  39  40  A  41  42  43  44  45  46  MR. GRANT:  47  MR. PLANT:  $70,000, and you said, "When I don't pay for my  licence I don't get to fish on my own waters." Where  is this place that you call your own waters?  I'm talking about before the — before you get to the  mouth of the Skeena which goes into the salt water.  This is where the — our people used to live along the  Skeena, and then right down to the mouth up to where  the — where the water's going to the salt water.  Coming — coming from our mountains here going into  the salt water, and this is our own waters.  Well you say, "This is where our people used to live."  Is that within your lifetime or before?  When the first white man started coming, they came  with a little cannery which they — which was situated  at Aberdeen.  The white people of the cannery gave the  women some twine to give — to make some fish nets.  Before the white man came we did have our own fish  nets, which was known as Leex-  The white people  didn't bring nets here, our people made nets here.  When the white men made skiffs, they were preparing  for — before they go fishing, they made skiffs, and  other people were given jobs to make firewood for the  winter.  And this is when they started using the  skiff — skiffs, when they go out fishing, and they  use the nets that the women have made.  Other  fishermen would just use canoes because there wasn't"  enough skiffs.  How did the place that you called your own waters  where you fished, become your own?  The — the Skeena River which is known as the Xsan  comes from our territories.  It was not known as  Skeena to begin with, it was known as Xsan.  And we  are the people of Gitksan which means people of the  Skeena.  And our river go — our river flow right into  the salt waters, which goes through — through the  territories of our people.  When the river gets to the mouth of the Skeena, is  that the place that you call your own waters, is  that — is that where your own waters are?  Yes, that is ours.  This is where the Skeena River  comes out at Aberdeen, and this is ours.  And even the  white people today say when they tell us you going to  fish in the Skeena, they mean Xsan, that's our waters.  They even call that Skeena, which we call Xsan, when  we are going to go out fishing.  You — I just want to —  Excuse me? *.'^*\i* nv*7*."^."\."\.^.■*.-*-■■> ."»;v"-..-  223  S. Williams (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Plant  1 MR. GRANT:  I just wanted to interject.  I think that — I don't  2 want to stop you in the middle of an area but I think  3 we should stop no later than three o'clock.  4 MR. PLANT:  5 Q  That's fine.  I don't think I'll have any problem  6 finishing with this area before that.  7 When you were talking about fishing in your own  8 waters, were you talking about a special place that  9 you, Stanley Williams, have fished at the mouth of the  10 Skeena?  11 A  I'm not referring to myself.  Before the white man  12 came here the people that are living all along the  13 Skeena, they own that water I'm talking about, the  14 people — the people of the — of the Skeena own this,  15 not — that don't only belong to me.  16 Q  When you talk about the people of the Skeena, are you  17 including the Ts'imxsan people?  18 A  Yes, they are counted too, because they are known as  19 the Ts'imxsan, that means from the — from the lower  20 part of the Skeena, people from the lower part of the  21 Skeena.  22 Q  So while you are talking about a place that you say is  23 "my own waters", what you are really talking about is  24 the mouth of the Skeena where all the people who live  25 along the Skeena, all of the Indian people have the '  26 right to fish because it's their river?  27 A  Yes, yes, it is all ours.  28 Q  Did the people, the Gitksan people fish at the mouth  29 of the Skeena before the white man came?  30 A  I'm 80 years old and the white people have only been  31 here for a hundred years and I'm 80, and I — I go  32 fishing there even today.  So our — it was a fishing  33 spot for our people.  34 Q  Well, was it —  35 A  Before the white man came.  36 Q  Okay.  So the — what you are saying is that the  37 Gitksan people, the people from Kitwancool and  38 Gitwingax and the other villages, Gitan'maaxs, as far  39 as you know, they fished at the mouth of the Skeena  40 down at the coast before the white man came?  41 A  Yes, they did this before the white man came.  42 Q  Who told you this?  43 A  My grandfathers told me about this.  44 Q  You say your —  45 A  Everything that ever happened centuries ago, my  46 grandfather always tells me about this, because he  47 knew I was going to be his successor, and he was •;«>!>i?;>j>o;?i>;>i>a;.«oj.';ji}i>i>;>iKMj  ';;^;j«;>i**>v);>i>i>i>i*;>i3  224  S. Williams (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Plant  1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  MR.  teaching me everything that he knew that had happened  centuries ago, and he told me this.  Q  Are you referring here to your grandfather Sam Gwis  gyen?  A  Yes, it is him.  PLANT: Okay, let's adjourn now.  (PROCEEDINGS ADJOURNED AT 3:00 p.m.)  I hereby certity the foregoing to be  a true and accurate transcript of the  proceedings herein transcribed to the  best of my skill and ability.  Toni Kerekes,  O.R. , R.P.R.  United Reporting Service Ltd.

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