Delgamuukw Trial Transcripts

Commission Evidence of Walter Wilson British Columbia. Supreme Court Aug 31, 1988

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 (3Jn irjr j^uprmir Court of ^riitsl] QIolumHa  No-       0 84 3  SMITHERS   REGISTRY  Hncou-msr, B.C.  AUGUST   31,   19 88  BETWEEN:  DELGAMUUKW, also known as ALBERT TAIT,  suing on his own behalf and on behalf  of all other members of the HOUSE OF  DELGAMUUKW, and others,  AND:  HER MAJESTY THE QUEEN IN RIGHT OF THE  PROVINCE OF BRITISH COLUMBIA and  THE ATTORNEY GENERAL OF CANADA,  PROCEEDINGS AT TRIAL  fy*C«A4*   -W>   %/<A#^  Vi  e.  Plaintiffs;  Defendants.  ~j  United Reporting Service Ltd.  OFFICIAL & FREELANCE REPORTERS  (HO- K JO WEST GEORGIA ST.. NWiCUUVEA. HC V&E 4H4  <«)i)6e9..iri83 ^n ttjc Supreme (Court uf ^riitslj (Eolumbin  Na        0843  SMITHERS   REGISTRY  Vancouver, B.C.  AUGUST   31,   19 88  BETWEEN:  DELGAMUUKW, also known as ALBERT TAIT,  suing on his own behalf and on behalf  of all other members of the HOUSE OF  DELGAMUUKW, and others,  Plaintiffs;  AND:  HER MAJESTY THE QUEEN IN RIGHT OF THE  PROVINCE OF BRITISH COLUMBIA and  THE ATTORNEY GENERAL OF CANADA,  Defendants  PROCEEDINGS AT TRIAL  United Reporting Service Ltd.  OFFICIAL Sl FREELANCE REPORTERS  610-1030 WEST GEORGIA ST.. VANCOUVER. EC. V&E 4H4  (604) 689-1088 APPEARANCES:  PETER R. GRANT, ESQ.,  JAMES M. MACKENZIE, ESQ.,  MS. THORA A. SIGURDSON,  MS. MARVYN KOENIGSBERG,  APPEARING FOR THE PLAINTIFFS;  APPEARING FOR HER MAJESTY THE  QUEEN IN RIGHT OF THE PROVINCE  OF BRITISH COLUMBIA  APPEARING FOR THE ATTORNEY-  GENERAL OF CANADA INDEX:  WALTER WILSON (FOR PLAINTIFFS)  CROSS EXAM BY MR. MACKENZIE  CROSS EXAM BY MS. KOENIGSBERG  EXAM BY MR. GRANT  RE-EXAM BY MR. MACKENZIE  4  54  64  73 1  Proceedings  1 WALTER WILSON, SWORN:  2  3 MR. GRANT:  I would like to refer to the affidavit which is  4 Exhibit 602 before you commence.  And in reviewing  5 this with the witness, Mr. Wilson, it appears that —  6 and I will say this is through the inadvertence of the  7 word processor probably, that paragraph four is in  8 part incorrect.  I have been instructed that this  9 witness, Djogaslee, Walter Wilson did not travel with  10 the persons named on the Xsi Luu Biyosxwit territory,  11 so that second last sentence:  12  13 "They pointed out the boundary and major  14 landmarks to me when we travelled within the  15 Xsi Luu Biyosxwit territory."  16  17 Is incorrect, in that he did not travel there with  18 them.  And it should be:  19  20 "They described the boundary and major  21 landmarks to me."  22  23 And I make that correction on the record to Exhibit  24 602, and it came to my attention subsequent to the  25 filing of this exhibit.  And I say — I think it is  26 through clerical or word processing error, is that  27 this is a paragraph that is similarly worded in many,  28 and in some — that sentence was not deleted and  2 9 should have been deleted at the time.  Inadvertence.  30 Similarly in paragraph 11, the Gail Creek territory.  31 I have been instructed by Mr. Wilson that he did not  32 travel on that territory with his uncle, and so that  33 sentence:  34  3 5 "He pointed out the boundary and major  36 landmarks to me when we travelled within the  37 Xsu Gwii Gwalgwit territory."  38  3 9 Is incorrect, and it should be:  40  41 "He described the boundaries and major  42 landmarks to me."  43  44 I believe a Djogaslee genealogy was given to you,  45 delivered to you, and on the very last page there is  46 the name Andrew Wilson and under that Djogaslee.  The  47 Djogaslee should be in brackets. 2  Proceedings  1 MS. KOENIGSBERG:  What page are we on?  2 MR. GRANT:  This is the genealogy dated January 28, 1988.  The  3 Djogaslee should be in brackets or crossed out.  And  4 if it's in brackets, it refers to the fact that he is  5 a member of the House.  6 MS. KOENIGSBERG:  Under Andrew you say?  7 MR. GRANT:  Under Andrew Wilson.  I have been instructed that  8 Andrew Wilson — that Andrew Wilson as named there did  9 not hold the name Djogaslee.  So it's to the extent  10 that that implies that, that that should be taken out.  11 MS. KOENIGSBERG: Just as a point of clarification, because it  12 might save us some time later, are you saying that you  13 are instructed that there should be parenthesis there  14 because he was in the House of Djogaslee?  15 MR. GRANT:  Or else it can be crossed out.  It's not in the  16 sense that when we look at the genealogy it's obvious  17 that it's in the House.  So — but it's not that he  18 holds the name Djogaslee itself.  19 And I have been instructed of an addition on page  20 11, which probably doesn't have — just to date it.  21 And that is that Lillian Morrison on the third line  22 down on page 11 was married to Moses Wilson, and also  23 Lillian Morrison is deceased, so there should be a dot  24 in her name.  So, in other words, there should an  25 equal sign and then a triangle with the name Moses  26 Wilson under it, after Lillian Morrison, and there  27 should be a dot in the centre of the circle above the  28 name Lillian Morrison.  29 I have not — I have not reviewed it in terms of  30 every person whether they were deceased or alive, so  31 there may be some other places.  Oh, and Moses William  32 is deceased and Andrew Wilson is deceased, and Ester  33 and Henry are deceased.  That's Ester Wilson, Henry  34 Wilson.  3 5 And I wanted to put this down on the record before  36 you started cross-examination, so that you are not —  37 so that you have those corrections on there, in case  38 it affects any questions.  39  40    CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR. MACKENZIE:  41  42 Q  Mr. Wilson, we have just been referring to an  43 affidavit which is Exhibit 602, and I am going to put  44 a copy of that affidavit in front of you.  Can you  45 identify your signature on the last page of that  46 affidavit please?  47 A  Yes, that's mine. 3  W. Wilson (for Plaintiffs)  Cross Exam by Mr. Mackenzie  1 Q  And that's the affidavit that you have sworn in these  2 proceedings?  3 A  Uh-huh.  4 Q  And in that affidavit you describe three territories?  5 A  Yes, that's right.  6 Q  And are those territories claimed by the House of  7 Djogaslee?  8 A  Djogaslee, yes.  9 Q  And does the House of Djogaslee claim any other  10 territories?  11 A  That's the only three territories.  That's the only  12 three territories under my name.  13 Q  Mr. Wilson, do you have any other corrections you wish  14 to make to your affidavit, Exhibit 60 2?  15 MR. GRANT:  I'm sorry, what was the question?  16 MR. MACKENZIE:  17 Q  Do you have any other corrections you wish to make to  18 your affidavit, 602?  19 MR. GRANT:  Other than what I have just described?  20 MR. MACKENZIE:  Yes.  21 A  I guess not.  22 Q  So in paragraph four where you initially said that you  23 travelled on the territory with your uncles, in fact  2 4 you hadn't travelled, is that correct?  25 A  On what area is that?  26 Q  Paragraph four in the Irving Creek area.  27 A  No, I never did travel with my uncle.  2 8 Q  And did you read over the affidavit when you swore it  29 on May 13, 1988?  30 A  Yes.  31 Q  Yes.  Did you see that paragraph four indicated that  32 you have travelled on the territory with your uncles?  33 A  Well, I must have seen it, but it didn't come to my  3 4 mind.  I made sure just the other day that I remember  35 seeing it, and I never did travel that area, but I was  36 told about that area by my great, great uncle.  37 Q  Who was that?  38 A  Willie Wilson.  3 9 Q  Oh, yes.  And now I'm speaking about the Gail Creek  40 area in paragraph 11.  G-a-i-1.  When you signed the  41 affidavit on May 13, it said that you had travelled on  42 the territory with Frank Wilson.  Now, you didn't  43 travel with him on that territory?  44 A  I guess they misunderstood me.  I did — went out with  45 Frank Wilson, but we only got half-ways and he got  46 sick.  47 Q  Oh, I see. 4  W. Wilson (for Plaintiffs)  Cross Exam by Mr. Mackenzie  1 A  And that's —  2 Q  When was that?  3 A  Oh, long time ago.  When I was a little boy.  And he  4 got sick and we got held up over two weeks in one  5 place.  And I keep telling him, "Let's go back.  You  6 are too sick to go ahead."  No, he wouldn't listen,  7 that old man.  Finally he give in and we had to come  8 back, and that's why I didn't travel with them in that  9 territory, but I did go there by myself later on.  10 Q  Oh, yes.  11 A  I trapped in that area.  12 Q  Along Gail Creek?  13 A  Gail Creek in that area.  14 Q  Yes.  And did you read paragraph 11 when you signed  15 the affidavit on May 13?  16 A  What's —  17 Q  That's paragraph 11 that refers to Frank Wilson.  18 A  Yes, I read it.  19 Q  So that was a mistake at that time, was it?  20 A  Uh-huh.  21 Q  Yes.  22 MR. GRANT:  To the extent that he's now described what happened.  23 MR. MACKENZIE:  24 Q  You said that's quite a long time ago when you had the  25 trip with Frank Wilson.  Was that in the 1950's, can  26 you remember, or the forties?  27 A  Oh, early forties.  28 Q  Yes.  2 9 A  Or even late thirties.  Yes, I think it's late  30 thirties.  That's before we went down to Rupert.  The  31 war breaks out at '3 9.  32 Q  You were down in Rupert, your father was working the  33 dry dock, is that correct?  3 4 A  Uh-huh.  3 5 Q  Frank Wilson had a trapline along Gail Creek, didn't  36 he?  37 A Yes. Xsi Gwil Gwalgwit.  3 8 Q That's the Gitksan name?  3 9 A  Yes.  40 Q  Did anyone else tell you about the boundary of the  41 Gail Creek territory?  42 A  My father did, because he used to go out with Frank  43 Wilson, and when he comes back he told us, my  44 brothers,  Cecil — and he used to tell us the area,  45 our boundaries, and so is my uncle —  46 Q  Which uncle was that?  47 A  Frank Wilson. W. Wilson (for Plaintiffs)  Cross Exam by Mr. Mackenzie  1 Q Was Frank telling about the trapline boundaries?  2 A Well, the area.  He told me the boundary and the whole  3 area.  4 Q Yes.  Well, was that the area that he was trapping in?  5 A Yes, inside the —  6 Q Was that the registered trapline?  7 A Yes, it was under his name, yes.  8 Q And then later Bruce Johnson took it over, right?  9 A Yes.  10 Q Yes.     And  his  name  is   Axtii Hiikw?  11 A Ax  dii  Ts'eex.  12 Q Yes.  And is he a member of your House?  13 A He's a member of my House, yes.  We both in the House.  14 MR. GRANT:  You have recorded both spellings of the two  15 different names that were just given.  16 MR. MACKENZIE:  17 Q Does  Ax dii Ts'eex have his  own house?  18 A At  one  time,   yes.  19 Q When was that?  20 A Oh, long time ago.  21 Q Did the Houses then come together?  22 A No.  What really happened, when Ax dii Ts'eex had a  23 House and family grew, and it's getting too large, so  24 Djogaslee moved out of that House, build his own.  25 It's a Long House, and that was full also.  So Paul Ax  26 Weegasxw, his chief name is Ax Weegasxw, that's Ska  27 Giihlx, he build a House.  We have three Long Houses  28 and they are both full.  So that's the reason why we  2 9 have — and we have chiefs, like Ax dii Ts'eex is a  30 high chief and I am right next to him, and Ax  31 Weegasxw, three big high chiefs.  32 Q So Ax dii Ts'eex had the Gail Creek territory?  33 A Yes.  3 4 Q Yes.  And ~  35 MR. GRANT:  When are you talking of?  36 MR. MACKENZIE:  After the Houses separated.  37 A Yes.  3 8 Q Yes.  And Ax Weegasxw had the Sagat territory?  3 9 A Sagat, yes.  40 Q And who holds the name Ax Weegasxw now?  41 A Ivan Johnson.  42 Q All right.  Now, the Houses separated.  Did Ax dii  43 Ts'eex come together again with Djogaslee?  44 A Well, within the three Houses we were all together.  45 We never did split.  46 Q I see.  47 A The only reason why we have different Houses is one W. Wilson (for Plaintiffs)  Cross Exam by Mr. Mackenzie  1 was too full.  2 Q  Ax Weegasxw is Ivan Johnson.  Is he still a member of  3 your House?  4 A  Oh, yes.  5 Q  Yes.  Before I go on, I would like to file some  6 interrogatories.  The first interrogatory I wish to  7 file is an affidavit of Luugaux, L-u-u-g-a-u-x, a  8 member of the House of Luutkudziiwas.  And we are  9 filing the affidavit of Arthur Ritsdale sworn February  10 2 — or February 3, 19 87.  11 MR. GRANT:  Well, you will have to — either have the witness  12 identify it or use it in this cross-examination.  I  13 don't think that we should use these  14 cross-examination — ultimately, obviously, you can  15 file these interrogatories under the rules, but I  16 don't think we should be filing interrogatories unless  17 you use it and unless the witness can say something  18 about it.  It's not his statement.  It's a statement  19 of another witness.  20 MR. MACKENZIE:  I'll repond to that.  I'm also filing  21 interrogatory 59C relating to the boundaries of  22 Luutkudziiwas territory.  23 (OFF THE RECORD)  24 MR.  MACKENZIE:     And  I'm going to also file the map  of  the  25 Luutkudziiwas  territory,  which is  one map  of  schedule  26 C to the interrogatories,  and it's referred to in  27 interrogatory 59C  of  the  Ben McKenzie,   Luutkudziiwas  28 interrogatories.  2 9 And just to assist — or to respond to Mr. Grant's  30 concern.  This territory takes up quite a bit of the  31 Gail Creek territory, and that's the relevance of  32 filing this interrogatory at this time.  And as Mr.  33 Grant suggested, I do intend to ask questions related  3 4 to this.  3 5   MR. GRANT:  Are you going to ask this witness questions about  36 this map?  37 MR. MACKENZIE:  I am going — yes, because —  38 MR. GRANT:  You don't have to explain why, but, I mean, if  3 9 you're going to question him about the map, you can  40 ask him about the map.  It may be very easy for you to  41 file it once you put it to the witness, but I don't  42 think we should just file —  43 MR. MACKENZIE:  Okay.  It's relevant, and my position is it  44 should be filed as an exhibit now.  If Mr. Grant  45 objects, then perhaps he would agree to have the  46 objection noted and mark it as an exhibit subject to  47 that — 7  W. Wilson (for Plaintiffs)  Cross Exam by Mr. Mackenzie  1  MR.  2  3  4  5  6  7  MR.  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  MR.  15  16  17  MR.  18  19  MR.  20  21  22  23  24  MR.  25  26  MR.  27  MR.  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  MR.  35  36  37  38  39  40  MR.  41  42  43  44  45  46  MR.  47  MR.  GRANT:  I propose that you ask the questions of the witness.  If you have any questions of this witness relating to  that, and if he can identify that map or refer to it,  then obviously once you ask him questions about it, it  makes sense to mark it as an exhibit for  identification at least.  MACKENZIE:  Mr. Grant, I followed this procedure in my  cross-examination of every other witness.  I filed all  the interrogatories I was going to refer to in my  examination at the beginning to expedite the  cross-examination.  And with respect, it doesn't seem  reasonable for you to object to me doing this now,  when I have explained to you very carefully —  GRANT:  What do you want to ask the witness about the map?  Ask him.  Mr. Wilson is here.  He has been waiting all  day.  Ask him about that.  MACKENZIE:  I wanted to have these marked as exhibits,  because they are interrogatories.  GRANT:  That's fine.  We can do that in open court.  We can  do that with the clerk not in open court.  That's not  what we are all here to do.  Mr. Wilson is sitting  here waiting for questions to be asked of him.  If you  have questions, ask him questions.  MACKENZIE:  I am going to ask him questions.  I want this  marked as an exhibit first.  GRANT:  I am waiting for your question.  MACKENZIE:  Hold on with that.  I am telling you, Mr. Grant, I am very upset at your  reaction to this.  I think you are being very  unreasonable.  And you continually talk about us  taking time, and you are making these objections  throughout the cross-examination that is holding it  up, and perfectly normal procedure.  GRANT: You have now spent five minutes berating me. I am  just asking a very simple thing. If you have a  question to ask Mr. Wilson about this interrogatory,  go ahead and ask him. He is waiting patiently for a  question. He has been sitting here for five minutes  waiting for a question.  MACKENZIE:  The next thing I would like to file is Mr.  Wilson's interrogatory, his affidavit dated September  26th, 1986, and interrogatory 59C attached to that  affidavit.  And in view of Mr. Grant's objections, I  think this affidavit interrogatory then should be  marked as the first exhibit.  GRANT:  Sorry, what was the date you had on it?  MACKENZIE:  September 26th, 1986. 8  W. Wilson (for Plaintiffs)  Cross Exam by Mr. Mackenzie  1 MR. GRANT:  Okay.  And what part — the entire thing?  2 MR. MACKENZIE:  Interrogatory 59C.  3 MR. GRANT:  You don't have it cut out yet.  4 MR. MACKENZIE:  No.  Interrogatory 59C, I am going to read that  5 now:  6  7 "What were the boundaries of your Houses  8 territory?"  9  10 The answer is:  11  12 "The territories between the Nass River,  13 Xsilaadamus Creek, Irving Creek and the Bell  14 Irving River."  15  16 MR. GRANT:  That will be Exhibit 1.  17  18 (EXHIBIT NO. 1 - AFFIDAVIT AND INTERROGATORY  19 59C DATED SEPTEMBER 26, 19 86 OF MR. WILSON)  20  21 MR. MACKENZIE:  It's stamped Exhibit 1 on the affidavit.  I'll  22 give you a copy with that interrogatory.  23 MR. GRANT:  Just so I know, are you going to pull other answers  24 out of this one, so that — maybe we should refer to  25 all of them if you're —  26 MR. MACKENZIE:  I am not going to file any others, but I am  27 going to refer to them.  28 MR. GRANT:  Okay.  2 9 MR. MACKENZIE:   And the next exhibit I wish to file is Mr.  30 Wilson's interrogatory affidavit dated February 9,  31 1987 with interrogatory 5 9C attached to that  32 affidavit.  And I am going to read that interrogatory:  33  3 4 "What are the boundaries of your Houses  35                    territory?  36  37 The answer is:  38  3 9 "The territory is between the Nass River,  40 Xsilaadamus Creek, Irving Creek and the Bell  41 Irving River."  42  43 And I ask that that be marked as Exhibit 2.  44  45 (EXHIBIT NO. 2 - INTERROGATORY AFFIDAVIT DATED  46 FEBRUARY 9, 19 87 WITH INTERROGATORY 59C)  47 9  W. Wilson (for Plaintiffs)  Cross Exam by Mr. Mackenzie  1 MR. MACKENZIE:  2 Q  The next item I want to refer to is the affidavit of  3 Mr. Wilson sworn July 12, 1985.  I am handing you a  4 copy of that affidavit, Mr. Wilson.  Can you identify  5 this signature on the last — second last page of that  6 affidavit?  7 A  Yes.  8 Q  Did you swear that original of that affidavit?  9 A  Yes.  10 MR. MACKENZIE: Exhibit 3.  11  12 (EXHIBIT NO. 3 - AFFIDAVIT OF MR. WILSON DATED  13 JULY 12, 1983)  14  15 Q  The next item I wish to refer to is an application for  16 registration of a trapline dated May 27, 1976.  Could  17 you please read it over, if you wish, and then could  18 you please identify your signature on that  19 application.  20 MR. GRANT:  On the last two out of — are they listed documents,  21 that is Exhibit 3 and this one here?  22 MR. MACKENZIE:  Yes.  The application is AGBC 1276 and trapline  23 number is 6172009.  24 MR. GRANT:  What about that affidavit?  25 MR. MACKENZIE:  The affidavit is in the Court Registry in  26 Smithers.  You can obtain it from there.  27 MR. GRANT:  It is not listed?  2 8 MR. MACKENZIE:  No.  29 THE WITNESS: The boundaries on these.  30 Q  You are referring to the trapline application?  31 A  Because that's the one they give the late William  32 Wale, and it's not the true traditional boundaries.  33 Q  I see.  Is that — that's —  3 4        A  That's from the government, I guess, D.I.A.  35 Q  Is that your signature on there?  36 A  That's my signature.  37 MR. MACKENZIE:  Mark that as the next exhibit please.  38  3 9 (EXHIBIT NO. 4 - APPLICATION FOR REGISTRATION  40 OF TRAPLINE DATED MAY 27, 1976)  41  42 MR. GRANT:  Just before you do that, the witness was referring  43 to what is now being marked as Exhibit 4 in his  44 comments on the description of the boundary.  45 MR.   MACKENZIE:  46 Q  And the next document is Band Council resolution dated  47 November 3, 19 82, and it's taken from the provincial 10  W. Wilson (for Plaintiffs)  Cross Exam by Mr. Mackenzie  1 document AGBC 1276 relating to trapline 6 082042.  2 There are two documents.  There is the Band Council  3 resolution, and attached to it is the statements by —  4 signed by several chiefs.  And you have the document  5 now, Mr. Wilson.  Could you identify your signature on  6 the bottom of that document, the front — the Band  7 Council resolution?  8 A  Yes.  9 Q  Yes.  And can you identify your signature on the other  10 document, which is the statement of the Gitksan  11 chiefs?  12 A  Yes.  13 MR. MACKENZIE:   Yes.  Would you mark that as the next.  14 MR. GRANT:  Do you wish to read it over?  15 MR. MACKENZIE:  Yes, if you wish to read it over.  You are  16 discussing that document with your counsel.  17 MR. GRANT:  For the record, he is not discussing the document  18 with me.  He just pointed a line out to me.  He did  19 not say a word to me, and I said not a word to him.  I  20 just turned it over for the second page for him to  21 read.  There was no discussion.  22 THE WITNESS:  Yes.  23 MR. GRANT:  Put that in as one exhibit, the two pages.  24 MR. MACKENZIE:  Yes.  The chiefs' declaration seems to be  25 undated.  26  27 (EXHIBIT 5 - BAND COUNCIL RESOLUTION DATED  28 NOVEMBER 3, 1982 - CHIEFS' DECLARATION)  29  30 MR. MACKENZIE:   Before I go on, Mr. Grant, would you reconsider  31 allowing me to file this Luutkudziiwas affidavit and  32 interrogatory now?  33 MR. GRANT:  Well, I just said if you have questions out of it,  34 ask him the questions, and then once you have done  35 that, then it's fine.  I don't see any point, if  36 you're not going to refer the document to the witness,  37 why we should put it in under his cross-examination.  38 Of course you will be able to put that in at trial.  3 9 MR. MACKENZIE:  Okay.  Fine.  My position is — of course I will  40 be referring to it, and I have told you it's  41 relevance, and as you know this is part of the trial,  42 but I — I don't want to get into another debate with  43 you, because it doesn't —  44 MR. GRANT:  Well, as soon as you ask any question — but if you  45 don't ask any questions —  46 MR. MACKENZIE:  Fine.  I'll get around to that shortly.  47 MR. GRANT:  Okay.  Which one are you referring to? 11  W. Wilson (for Plaintiffs)  Cross Exam by Mr. Mackenzie  1 MR. MACKENZIE:  I am not going to be referring to the  2 interrogatory, just have it as a personal reference.  3 Q  Mr. Wilson, you have had a varied employment history  4 and career.  Could you summarize that please?  5 A  What do you mean?  6 Q  Your employment and occupations.  7 A  Right from the very beginning?  8 Q  Yes.  You did it very well in your interrogatory.  If  9 you could just summarize those.  10 A  Well, I left home when I was 14 to help out my dad and  11 I started work.  I went through quite a bit of work in  12 my lifetime.  As a starter during the war down in  13 Rupert.  I lied about my age just to get work, and I  14 started as a water boy, dry dock, and then the Royal  15 Canadian Engineers, they were building the fort in  16 Rupert.  I worked there too as a water boy, and then  17 we came back during early forties from Rupert back to  18 home.  19 Q  Was that back to Hazelton?  20 A  Hazelton.  Gitanmaax, yes.  21 Q  Yes.  22 A  And I got in as a section man, CN.  I forgot the  23 years.  24 Q  That's fine.  25 A  And I worked,there and quit.  I got a job up the  26 Silver Standard Mine, they put me on — what was it —  27 as a tram underground.  I don't know how long I worked  28 there.  Quite a few months, if not years.  And then I  2 9 worked for Marshall Brothers as a swamper.  In them  30 days it's bull work.  31 Q  Ward Marshall?  32 A  Ward Marshall, Tom Marshall, Scottie Smith, they were  33 all in there at that time.  I worked in small mills in  3 4 the bush, pole camps, working with my Dad, pole camps  35 when I was very young.  Then I got out and got a job  36 on the government telegraph as a labourer.  Then they  37 putting in a line at Houston.  They send me out there  3 8 as a foreman on the ground crew, slashing and putting  3 9 up poles, and I stuck that out for a few months.  Then  40 the B.C. Tel moved in, the government telegraph was  41 out.  So I worked for B.C. Tel for awhile.  We were  42 stringing a line out of Kispiox valley in my time.  43 Then I fished commercial down the coast.  44 Oh, there was quite a few other works I did.  Then I  45 forgot what year I got on on the School Board as a  46 maintenance man out of Terrace, but they put me to  47 work in Hazelton area, like Kispiox valley, Kitwangak, 12  W. Wilson (for Plaintiffs)  Cross Exam by Mr. Mackenzie  1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  Q  22  A  23  24  25  Q  26  A  27  Q  28  A  29  Q  30  A  31  Q  32  A  33  34  35  36  37  Q  38  A  39  40  Q  41  A  42  Q  43  44  45  46  A  47  Q  south hazelton, New Hazelton.  I looked after the  maintenance part of the school.  From there the D.I.A. hired me off of that and they  put me on as a foreman building homes for seven  reserves we have around our area.  And I don't know  how many years I worked as a construction foreman,  then the bands took over their own housing, so my job  was phased out.  But the D.I.A. turned around and give  me a maintenance craftsman to look after the  government buildings, school — day school and  teacherages.  And I worked, I think, three years on  that, and then the bands take over their own  maintenance.  So my job was phased out and I am  retired — that's last — I forgot what year — that  was three or four years ago.  And I applied for different jobs since then.  That's  what kind of work I could do, and I tell them and I  tell them my history.  They ask my age.  They told me  to come back and we line something up for you, but I  worked around the band on reserve.  Gitanmaax reserve?  Gitanmaax reserve, yes.  Now we're poaching on our own  land.  That is all I am doing.  When I go out and hunt  they say I'm poaching.  I see.  And yet it's on my land.  Which land would that be?  The Gitksan land.  Indian land.  Any particular —  No, our whole —  I see.  Fishing, when I go fishing they pick me up on that  too, because I have no permit or licence, whatever  they call it.  I told them I didn't — I'm not doing  anything wrong.  I am fishing on my own territory.  That's my occupation right now is fishing, trapping.  Where are you trapping?  On Sagat, Gail Creek.  This fall I might go out to Xsi  luu 'min Biiyoosxwit.  That's up at Irving Creek?  Irving Creek.  That's my history of employment.  You were working steadily for most of your life at —  and you were obviously quite busy.  I take it it's  only recently that you have had time to spend a lot of  time trapping?  I spend weekends.  Yes. 13  W. Wilson (for Plaintiffs)  Cross Exam by Mr. Mackenzie  1  A  2  Q  3  A  4  Q  5  6  A  7  Q  8  9  A  10  Q  11  A  12  Q  13  A  14  Q  15  A  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  Q  25  26  27  28  29  A  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  Q  40  A  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  In our area.  Sagat and Gail Creek.  So you would be able to go out on weekends?  Oh, yes.  And you had a registered trapline  up  in the  Irving  Creek area,   the Nass  River?  Yes.  Now, you are also a member of the Gitanmaax Band  Council?  Yes.  Are you still a member?  Yes.  What are your duties as a Councillor?  Well, my duties — portfolio you mean?  Yes.  Yes.  You see, our Council, we don't have portfolios right  now.  We all sit in and talk things over, and we  discuss things before we agree of doing projects.  And  for me on the Council they ask me, because I did some  construction work in my time.  If there was any road  building, building homes, they ask me before they  agree with certain projects.  But we agree, our  Council all agree before — at the moment we don't  have a portfolio.  When we referred to Exhibit 5, which was the Band  Council resolution, can you tell me what the reason is  for having that Band Council resolution recognizing  Bruce Johnson's right to certain trapping and hunting  grounds? Why was that passed?  The reason why we started using resolution to  recognize a person getting a trapline or an area,  hunting area, is because what game warden do, if a  person walks in and asks a certain area, right now  they give him a licence or a permit, and yet this  person doesn't belong to that area.  So the high  chiefs start talking about it.  So it's best to go  through our Band Council before we let this area out.  You see, Bruce is living in Kispiox, and when he took  that name —  The name Ax dii Ts'eex?  Ax dii Ts'eex.  I talked to him about it too.  I said  before you take a permit or recognize on that area, it  has to go through Band Council resolutions, so nobody  would bother you.  It's your own protection.  And if  something happened to him, that name is going to come  back at Gitanmaax.  He is in our family, Bruce.  He is  on the family tree.  So that's the only reason why  that resolution, and what the game warden were doing. 14  W. Wilson (for Plaintiffs)  Cross Exam by Mr. Mackenzie  1  2  3  4  5  6  Q  7  A  8  Q  9  A  10  Q  11  A  12  Q  13  A  14  Q  15  A  16  17  Q  18  19  20  A  21  Q  22  23  A  24  25  26  27  Q  28  29  A  30  Q  31  32  A  33  Q  34  35  A  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  Q  44  45  A  46  Q  47   J  MR. GRANT:  The other thing the government is doing now is the  Fishery, they issue out licences to anybody, providing  you have dark skin or — and they didn' t even ask him  where you come from.  And that's why we use resolution  on the trapping area.  They are giving licences to Indians to fish?  Yes.  Or permits?  Permits.  Indians sometimes who aren't Gitksan people?  Not from around here.  Yes.  And the high chiefs don't agree with that.  I understand.  And that's why we use the resolution on our trapping  area, hunting ground.  I understand that.  And now — so would the Band  Council send this, then, to the Fish and Wildlife  Branch?  They send this to Bruce and the Game Department.  Now, why did the chiefs, and you are one of them, sign  the statement that is attached to that resolution?  They recognize Bruce and they recognize him in the  feast hall.  These people are elderly people, like Ben  McKenzie, Steve Robinson.  They are witnesses in the  feast, when Bruce got them name and the territory.  Is it fair to say that Bruce is now registered down at  the trapline on Gail Creek?  Yes.  Yes.  And he registered down at Gail Creek — was that  to protect the area?  Yes.  To hold it.  Do you have any — can you tell me how it's protected  by registering the name?  Well, in the early days when D.I.A. start giving out  permits, and they told the high chief then that your  land, you have to have a permit to protect your area  or your land, so no one would go in and do damage on  it.  But now what we find out today, it's not helping  us.  Loggers move in our areas, they clear cut our  areas and there is no protection, what they promise us  a long time ago.  Was that protection to stop other people from coming  in and trapping?  That too, yes, and the logging.  And how were the trapline boundaries determined?  Registered trapline boundaries? 15  W. Wilson (for Plaintiffs)  Cross Exam by Mr. Mackenzie  1    MR.  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25    MR.  26    MR.  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  MACKENZIE:  Q  Yes.  A  Well, D.I.A., I guess, they just go ahead and — well,  they ask the chief what area they are talking about,  and the chiefs explain to them.  We don't go by corner  posts or whatever, we go by rivers and height of land  and streams.  But D.I.A. just move in and make out a  map.  They give it to these chiefs, and they are  wrong, some of them.  Some overlap other areas.  They  don't go by the traditional boundaries.  But the  chiefs told them the traditional boundaries, but they  didn't use them.  Q  How did you hear about that process, the chiefs  telling D.I.A. about the boundaries?  A  Well, its been talked about in the feasts, in meetings  long time ago.  Q  Did you ever participate in any procedure like that?  A  On what?  Q  Telling someone the trapline boundaries and getting a  registration as a result of that?  A  No, I never did interfere.  I got one too, like the  one you have there.  It's not right.  It's a mistake.  Q  Yes.  Well, in your — well, you are referring to  Exhibit 4, is that correct?  GRANT:  Yes.  MACKENZIE:  Q  In your interrogatory you were asked:  "Does your House possess any documentary  evidence of ownership of this territory?"  And you answered "Yes".  That's interrogatory number  62.  And then the — and interrogatory number 63 was:  "If so, what are the documents?"  And you said:  "Old D.I.A. trapline maps but the boundaries  weren't always right."  And that's what you meant, wasn't it?  A  Yes.  Q  So did you regard that — those old trapline maps as  evidence of ownership of the territories?  A  Well, part is right, but some are not right.  Q  So would you say some — 16  W. Wilson (for Plaintiffs)  Cross Exam by Mr. Mackenzie  1  A  2  Q  3  A  4  5  Q  6  7  A  8  Q  9  10  11  A  12  Q  13  14  A  15  Q  16  17  18  A  19  Q  20  A  21  22  Q  23  A  24  Q  25  A  26  Q  27  A  28  Q  29  A  30  Q  31  32  A  33  Q  34  35  A  36  Q  37  38  A  39  Q  40  41  A  42  Q  43  A  44  45  Q  46  47  Cross over to other —  Yes.  And would you say some are right?  Well, on the map part of it is right.  Some parts are  not right.  Do you have any explanation for the fact that part  right and part wrong?  Well, I can't answer what the D.I.A. did.  That's right.  But talking about your trapline, Mr.  Wilson, your trapline is up — part of it is near  Xsilaadamus Creek, correct?  Right on Xsilaadamus.  Yes.  And that part is northwest to the Nass River,  correct?  Yes.  Then the other part of it goes down southeast of the  Nass River, and you do trapping down in that area  also?  Well, my uncle used to trap down there.  Is that William Wale?  William Wale, yes.  Last time he went in is '51, I  think.  I see.  Was he Djogaslee?  Djogaslee then, yes.  How would he get across the Nass River there?  Oh, they have canoes, build raft.  I see.  Did you ever go down there with him?  No.  No.  Did he tell you he trapped down there?  Oh, yes, I know he went out there.  And have you trapped around Xsilaadamus Creek  yourself?  No, not yet.  No.  Did you trap on the other side of the Nass where  your uncle —  No.  I take it no one is trapping up in Xsilaadamus Creek  now?  Not at the moment, no.  No.  And did William Wale trap up in Xsilaadamus  Creek?  Oh, yes.  And the last time he was there would be about 1951?  I think it's '51.  I'm not sure, but around there  somewhere.  During the fifties, early fifties.  Now, over just to the west of your trapline is the  Kitwancool Band trapline.  Have you been aware of  that, Kitwancool, Wolf Clan has a trapline up there? 17  W. Wilson (for Plaintiffs)  Cross Exam by Mr. Mackenzie  1 A  I know Kitwancool people own that west side.  2 Q  And are you aware that they claim that they own the  3 land and the trapline is on the east side of the Bell  4 Irving River there?  5 MR. GRANT:  Just a moment.  Are you — you say they claim they  6 own the land and the traplines on the east side.  I  7 would like you to be clear as to whether you are  8 talking about the territory of the Kitwancool or the  9 registered trapline, because you seem to have mixed  10 the two concepts up.  11 MR. MACKENZIE:  12 Q  Just to the west of your trapline, between the west  13 boundary of your trapline and the Bell Irving River is  14 the Kitwancool trapline.  Did you know that that  15 trapline was up there?  16 A  On the west side.  17 Q  It's on the west side.  Do you know it's also on the  18 east side of the Bell Irving River?  19 A  No, I didn't know that.  20 Q  No.  And are you aware that the Kitwancool people  21 claim that Irving Creek territory as part of their  22 comprehensive claim?  23 MR. GRANT:  Wait a minute.  Which side are you talking about?  24 MR. MACKENZIE:  It's east of the Bell Irving River between Bell  25 Irving and Xsilaadamus.  26 MR. GRANT:  I think if I remember correctly in the evidence of  27 Solomon Marsden, one of the Kitwancool chiefs made it  28 clear that they only claimed the west side of the Bell  2 9 Irving River, and they did not cross over here.  And  30 the evidence of this witness, in fact, which is  31 evidence in the trial, he certainly pointed out it was  32 Gitksan.  I think he pointed out it was Frog, and I  33 think he even referred to his chief as to whose  3 4 territory it was.  He certainly went as far as the  35 clan.  So I don't think it's right for you to — I  36 don't think — I am not imputing intent here, but it's  37 misleading to ask the witness that they claim that,  3 8 when Solomon Marsden, one of the leading chiefs of  3 9 Kitwancool, made it clear that they did not claim it  40 in any of the evidence of this trial.  41 MR. MACKENZIE:  I don't agree with that, Mr. Grant, but let me  42 reframe the question.  43 Q  Are you aware of a claim by the Kitwancool people to  44 the area between Xsilaadamus Creek and Bell Irving  45 River?  46 A  No.  47 Q      And are you  aware that there was  a registered trapline 18  W. Wilson (for Plaintiffs)  Cross Exam by Mr. Mackenzie  1 in that area between Xsilaadamus Creek and Bell Irving  2 River belonging to the Kitwancool people?  3 A It doesn't show on the map I got from the Game  4 Department.  5 Q What shows on the map that you got from the Game  6 Department?  7 A Well,   it  shows  right  on there between Sto'ot  8 Xsitxemsem.  9 Q That's Bell Irving River?  10 A Yes.  And Xsilaadamus.  11 Q Yes.  12 A Right in there.  That's my area.  13 Q Do you have a map showing that as your area?  14 A Not at the moment, no.  15 Q Do you have one at home?  16 A No.  I just got that map.  17 Q Which map are you pointing to?  18 A The one — D.I.A., when I registered at that area.  19 MR. GRANT:  He is pointing to your pile of exhibits.  I think he  20 is referring to Exhibit 4.  21 THE WITNESS:   That's the map I got.  22 MR. MACKENZIE:  23 Q Yes.  But do you have that map?  24 A Not with me, no.  25 Q Do you have it at home?  26 A One at home, yes.  27 Q I would like  to see  that please.     Could you bring that  28 please?  2 9 (ADDITIONAL   INFORMATION   REQUESTED)  30 A Right  now?  31 Q No, when you come back.  Let me say that my  32 understanding is that your trapline doesn't go over to  33 the Bell Irving River.  34 A On the west side?  35 Q Yes.  36 A No, it doesn't go over.  It goes centre.  37 Q Yes, centre.  Yes.  Well, who has got the trapline  3 8 between your trapline and the Bell Irving River?  39 MR. GRANT:  I think he misunderstood your question.  40 MR. MACKENZIE:  41 Q I am instructed that your — the western boundary of  42 your trapline does not go to the Bell Irving River.  43 A According to that map the D.I.A. give out a long time  44 ago it doesn't go right — but the original boundary  45 is right up to centre of that river.  Traditional.  46 Q You mean your House's claimed territory?  47 A Yes. 19  W.   Wilson   (for  Plaintiffs)  Cross Exam by Mr.   Mackenzie  1 Q      So it's your counsel  that misunderstood the question,  2 not you.  3 MR. GRANT:  That's not necessary, Mr. Mackenzie.  I did not  4 misunderstand the question.  He was talking about the  5 centre of the river, and you accepted centre as east  6 of the river.  7 MR.   MACKENZIE:  8 Q      So your  trapline goes to the centre line  of  the  9 traditional  territory,   doesn't it?  10 A      Yes.  11 Q  Yes, that's right.  And whose got the trapline between  12 the centre line of the traditional territory and the  13 Bell Irving River?  14 MR. GRANT:  Just a moment.  He said the centre line of the Bell  15 Irving River, and now you have said centre line of the  16 traditional territory.  17 MR. MACKENZIE:  I'm sorry —  18 MR. GRANT:  You can clarify that, but he was talking about the  19 centre line of the river.  He just said that.  His  20 boundary line goes to the centre line of the river.  21 MR. MACKENZIE:  Excuse me, could you read out the last question  22 and answer.  23  24 (QUESTION READ BACK BY REPORTER)  25  26 A  Traditional boundary, not traditional territory.  27 Traditional boundary is the middle of the river.  2 8 Q  Yes, that's right.  But your trapline goes to the  29 centre of the traditional territory, doesn't it?  3 0 A  Trapline.  You mean just the trapline?  31 Q  Yes, that's right.  32 A  There is about six or seven, eight lines in that area.  33 Q  The boundary of your registered trapline.  3 4 A  But the boundary is on the outside.  35 Q  The boundary of your registered trapline, the western  36 boundary, where is it?  37 A  It's in that area.  38 Q  It's in the centre of your traditional territory,  3 9 isn't it?  It runs north, south through the centre of  40 your traditional territory, doesn't it?  41 A  I don't know what you are talking about the centre.  42 The centre of the area or the —  43 Q  Well, the centre between Xsilaadamus Creek and Bell  44 Irving River.  45 A  In between?  46 Q  Yes.  47 A      Yes.     But  centre,   I don't understand that.     But  in 20  W. Wilson (for Plaintiffs)  Cross Exam by Mr. Mackenzie  1 between the two —  2 Q  That's right.  3 A  That's right.  4 Q  And whose got the trapline next to yours between the  5 western boundary of your trapline and the Bell Irving  6 River?  7 A  Kitwancool chiefs.  8 Q  Yes.  So your trapline goes across the Nass River  9 southeast into Gyolugyet's territory, doesn't it?  10 MR. GRANT:  The registered trapline?  11 MR. MACKENZIE:  Registered trapline.  12 MR. GRANT:  This is the one described in Exhibit 4?  13 MR. MACKENZIE:  Yes.  14 THE WITNESS:  That's the old map — I mean the one D.I. A. give.  15 Q  Yes, that's right.  16 A  Yes, they overlap.  17 Q  Yes, that's right.  18 A  Gyolugyet, and that's not right.  19 Q  Yes.  And you said William Wale used to trap on that  20 line across the river?  21 A  Not in that area.  22 Q  Yes.  23 A  Not on Gyolugyet's area.  24 Q  I'm sorry.  25 A  He traps on the —  26 Q  Sorry, go ahead.  I didn't mean to interrupt.  27 MR. GRANT:  Let him finish his answer.  28 THE WITNESS:  You see, William Wale when he goes out there, he  2 9 doesn't trap on Gyolugyet's territory.  Just because  30 there is overlapping on that old map the D.I.A. give  31 out, but the high chiefs know it's not right.  So  32 William Wale, he doesn't trap on that there.  33 MR. MACKENZIE:  34 Q  Does —  3 5 A      He goes  across.  36 Q       All right.     You told me William Wale trapped across  37 the Nass  River into the  southeast?  3 8                      A      Yes.  3 9 Q       You remember that?  40 A      He crossed the Nass River.  41 Q       Yes,   that's  right.     And that's  Gyolugyet's  territory,  42 isn't it?  43 MR. GRANT:  He didn't say the southeast, I don't recall.  He  44 said he went across the Nass River to trap.  45 THE WITNESS:   He was within the Xsilaadamus.  46 MR.   MACKENZIE:  47 Q       Yes. 21  W. Wilson (for Plaintiffs)  Cross Exam by Mr. Mackenzie  1 A And Bell Irving.  2 Q Yes.  3 A And  I  thought that's what you meant,   southeast.  4 Q Well,   I mean William Wale trapped  on both sides   of  the  5 Nass  River.  6 A When did he do that?  7 Q In 1951.  8 A He didn't trap this side of Nass River.  He trapped  9 across.  10 Q Okay.  But the registered trapline goes across the  11 Nass River, doesn't it?  12 A Yes.  The registered trapline, yes.  13 Q And you signed the application, didn't you?  14 A Uh-huh.  15 Q Yes.  And you knew when you signed the application  16 that the registered trapline went across the Nass  17 River, didn't you?  18 A Yes, I seen it.  19 Q Yes.  20 A And I questioned it, and what you call it said down  21 here in this building, I think.  22 MR. GRANT:  We are in the government building for the record.  23 THE WITNESS:  And they told me it's the area William Wale owns,  24 so I just let it go.  But it was wrong.  I think there  25 is quite a few like that.  26 MR. MACKENZIE:  27 Q But — sorry, go ahead.  Part of it was right, wasn't  28 it?  2 9 A Well, across the river is right, yes.  30 Q Yes.  So half of it is right and half of it is wrong  31 you say?  32 A Yes.  33 Q Now, while we are talking about traplines, you know  34 that Bruce Johnson has that trapline down on Gail  35 Creek, don't you?  36 A Uh-huh.  37 Q And that's only a small part of the Gail Creek  38 territory you are claiming, isn't it?  3 9 A Well, it's a fairly big area.  40 Q The Gail Creek territory that you are claiming extends  41 beyond the trapline, doesn't it?  42 A Oh, yes, it takes in Cataline Creek.  43 Q All the way up to Thomlinson Creek, doesn't it?  44 A Yes.  45 Q All the way down to Mount Thoen,   doesn't it?  46 A Yes.  47 Q And over to the Nechyeskwa River? 22  W. Wilson (for Plaintiffs)  Cross Exam by Mr. Mackenzie  1 A Across that and down.  2 Q Up to the Babine River?  3 A Yes, down to the Babine River.  4 Q Now, Mr. Wilson, what do you say about Bruce Johnson's  5 trapline?  Is that correct?  Is that right or wrong?  6 A On?  7 Q On Gail Creek.  8 A I haven't seen the registered map he's got there.  9 Q I see.  10 A But I know there are boundaries, traditional  11 boundaries in that area.  12 Q Traditional boundaries — is it fair to say that  13 traditional boundaries are much greater than the  14 boundaries of the registered trapline?  15 MR. GRANT:  Just a second.  If he hasn't seen the map, the  16 original line, how can he answer that question?  17 MR. MACKENZIE:  He can answer the question.  He can say he  18 doesn't know.  19 A Well, that's — I didn't know.  20 Q You know that there is several other registered  21 traplines in that Gail Creek territory, don't you?  22 A Yes, south end.  23 Q You know Kenny McKenzie has a trapline up there?  24 A No, no —  25 Q Sorry?  26 A Ben McKenzie has  27 Q Ben McKenzie used to have one —  28 A Luutkudziiwas.  2 9 Q His  trapline went north  of Mount Thoen,   didn't  it?  30 A North south.  31 Q Yes.  And do you know Lloyd Morrison has a trapline  32 down there as well?  33 A No.  34 Q No.  35 A Shouldn't be,  because  they are across  the Babine  36 River.  37 Q Yes.  Now, you live on — do you live on the Gitanmaax  3 8 reserve now, Mr. Wilson?  3 9 A Yes.  40 Q Have you always lived there?  41 A Yes.  42 Q Except when you are in Prince Rupert?  43 A Yes.  44 Q Do you own any property off the reserve?  45 A Not off reserve, no.  46 Q Now, you were speaking about your commercial fishing.  47 You used to go down to the coast and fish 23  W. Wilson (for Plaintiffs)  Cross Exam by Mr. Mackenzie  1  2  A  3  Q  4  A  5  Q  6  7  8  A  9  Q  10  A  11  Q  12  A  13  14  15  Q  16  17  18  A  19  20  21  Q  22  A  23  Q  24  25  A  26  Q  27  28  A  29  Q  30  31  A  32  Q  33  34  A  35  Q  36  A  37  Q  38  39  40  A  41  Q  42  A  43  Q  44  A  45  Q  46  A  47  Q  commercially?  Yes.  And you obtained permits to fish down there?  Yes.  And while you were down there the — you were aware  that the federal government was regulating the  fisheries in that area?  What do you mean regulating?  They were opening and closing the season for fishing?  You meaning the commercial fishing?  Commercial fishing.  That's after my time.  We fished five days a week when  I was still fishing.  There was no closing, accept on  weekends.  You are aware that the federal government was  regulating the ocean fishery down at the coast when  you were there?  Well, the only regulation I know then at the time is  five days fishing.  We go out Sunday and we come back  in Friday night.  So they had open times and closed times?  Yes.  Now, yes, but —  When they were there they had open times and closed  times?  I fished five days a week when I was still fishing.  Now, you were charged in 1985 with an offence under  the Canada Fisheries Act, weren't you?  Yes.  And that was fishing with a net down on the Skeena  River without a permit?  That's right.  You mentioned that in your comments.     And you went to  trial  on that charge?  Uh-huh.  And you testified at that trial under oath?  Yes.  And on — you testified on a couple of occasions, but  one of the occasions you testified was on July 2, 1987  last year.  Do you remember that?  Testified on what?  On — at the trial.  On the same —  On the trial, yes.  I forgot.  Is that on the same cases?  Yes, last July, July, 1987.  That's when they let me go, I guess.  Yes.  And you were convicted on that charge? 24  W. Wilson (for Plaintiffs)  Cross Exam by Mr. Mackenzie  1  A  2  Q  3  A  4  Q  5  A  6  7  8  Q  9  10  A  11  Q  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  A  38  39  Q  40  A  41  Q  42  A  43  Q  44  A  45  Q  46  47  A  Well, that's when I was confused.  Yes.  The judge said I am free to go.  He gave you an absolute discharge?  Yes.  But when I walk out the door I found I am  guilty, what I heard behind me after they let me go.  So I don't know what he was talking about.  So you were convicted and you were given an absolute  discharge?  Yes, that's what it is.  I am just going to read to you a passage from your  cross-examination at that trial, and Mr. Toews asked  you:  "And you were aware that you had to get a  permit from — for that from the Federal  Fisheries Department?"  He was referring to commercial fishing at the coast.  You said:  "Yes."  And then he said:  "And did the Fisheries Department as far as  you could see regulate the manner in which the  ocean fishery was carried out, that is have  open times and closed times?"  And you said:  "Yes."  Now, were you asked those questions and did you give  those answers?  I didn't get the first one there.  I was answering on  that question down the coast, not up there.  They are talking about down the coast.  Yes.  Were those the questions and answers?  Yes.  And were they true? Were your answers true?  Yes.  Yes.  So you were aware that the Federal Fisheries  down at the coast was regulating?  Down at the coast.  And I told them that. 25  W. Wilson (for Plaintiffs)  Cross Exam by Mr. Mackenzie  1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  Q  Yes.  And on that occasion, July, 1985, talking about  on the Skeena, Fisheries Officers seized your nets,  didn't they?  A  Yes.  Q  And at that time the Federal Fisheries Officer was  there, Mr. Coukell?  A  Coukell, yes.  Q  And the Provincial Conservation Officer was there, Mr.  Hoyer?  A  Hoyer,  MR. MACKENZIE:  It's 25 to 5:00.  What do you think?  (PROCEEDINGS ADJOURNED)  (PROCEEDINGS RECOMMENCED)  AUGUST 31, 1988  CONTINUATION OF CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR. MACKENZIE:  Q  Mr. Wilson, yesterday when we closed we were speaking  about the Fisheries down at the coast, and you  recalled that you had been engaged in the commercial  fishing business down in the coast?  A  One time, yes.  Q  And you rented a boat to do that?  A  Renting a boat from the company.  Q  And you obtained a food fishing permit to conduct that  fishing down at the coast?  A  When I go down for food fishing I ask for — I apply  for a permit.  Q  And — but it's your position or your belief that  there is no requirement for you to get a permit up  here in the Skeena?  A  No.  Q  You do, though, abide by the regulations with respect  to opening and closing of the Fisheries on the Skeena?  A  That's right.  Q  Yes.  We spoke yesterday about your registered  trapline up in the Irving Creek area around  Xsilaadamus.  You remember that?  A  Uh-huh.  Q  And you identified Exhibit 4.  On the back of Exhibit  4 it says that there was a Band Council resolution.  Was that the case, to confirm the transfer to you of  that William Wale trapline?  A  There must, because it says on there they received it.  Q  Were you on the Council then? 26  W. Wilson (for Plaintiffs)  Cross Exam by Mr. Mackenzie  1 A  I was on the Council, but if I apply for what you  2 call, they leave me out.  3 Q  Oh, I see, because you are involved in it.  4 A  They won't let me sit in on the discussion.  5 Q  Do you recall — did the chiefs *assign a declaration  6 like they did with Bruce Johnson? Do you know if that  7 happened?  8 A  I can't remember.  I don't remember.  9 MR. GRANT:  Like the back page of Exhibit 5?  10 MR. MACKENZIE: Yes.  11 THE WITNESS:  Yes.  I don't remember.  12 MR. MACKENZIE:  13 Q  From your experience — how long were you on the  14 Council — have you been on the Council?  15 A  A few years now.  16 Q  This is — this application, Exhibit 4, was in 1976?  17 A  Uh-huh.  18 Q  Have you been on the Council since then?  19 A  Before that too, yes.  20 Q  Was it usually the practice to — for the Council to  21 pass resolutions to confirm the transfer of the  22 traplines?  23 MR. GRANT:  At what time?  2 4   MR. MACKENZIE:  25 Q  During the time that you were on the Council.  26 A  Well, since that time I think around the seventies,  27 but before that D.I.A. handled it.  2 8 Q  And as you mentioned yesterday, you participated in  2 9 the passage of the Band Council resolution for Bruce  30 Johnson's trapline?  31 A  Uh-huh.  3 2 Q  Now, in your affidavit when you were discussing your  33 territory up at Xsilaadamus, you were referred to  3 4 Willie Wilson.  Was he one of your uncles?  3 5 A  Yes.  36 Q  He was a former Djogaslee?  37 A  That's right.  38 Q  And he also had the trapline that you now own, is that  3 9 correct?  40 A  Yes.  41 Q      Yes.     Do you know  if  he was the first  one  to get  it?  42 A      Yes,  he was  the first man to get it,  yes.     He  got it  43 from Chief  Skiik'm lax ha.     That's the late Daniel  44 Skawil.  45 MR. GRANT:  Could I just clarify.  When you said he was the  46 first man to get it, were you asking about the  47 territory of Djogaslee or the registered trapline? 27  W. Wilson (for Plaintiffs)  Cross Exam by Mr. Mackenzie  1 MR. MACKENZIE:  That's a good point.  2 MR. GRANT:  I'm not sure the witness is clear about what you are  3 asking.  4 MR. MACKENZIE:  Yes.  5 Q  Well, I was speaking about Willie Wilson, and the  6 first part of my question, and your counsel has got a  7 good point, I was speaking about the registered  8 trapline.  He was the first person to get the  9 registered trapline, was he?  10 MR. GRANT:  To register it.  11 MR. MACKENZIE:  12 Q  To register the trapline.  13 A  Yes.  14 Q  And was he also the first person to get the  15 traditional territory from Daniel Skawil?  16 A  Yes.  17 Q  Do you know when that might have happened?  18 A  No, I don't.  It's a long time ago.  19 Q  Did you ever speak to Willie about that?  20 A  Well, when I was a little boy, every time he comes  21 back trapping, and he call my mother up and my  22 brothers and sisters up to his place to live with him,  23 because when I was very young he always favoured me  24 into his family.  And every time he comes back  25 trapping, he called my mother's family up to his place  26 and we live with him.  And he — that's when he start  27 telling me about the boundaries.  You know — I don't  28 know if you know what Indians like, our grandfathers.  2 9 When we were little small they pack us.  Sometimes we  30 go to bed with them and they tell us histories and  31 what-not in bed, or in the living room packing us when  32 we were little kids, small, they start feeding into  33 our brain what's history, what's our backgrounds.  3 4 And them days — one time I was getting a little  3 5 bigger, and it happens every year, he calls us up to  36 live with him, him and his wife, and he tells me  37 stories, adaawk, histories of our boundaries, the  3 8 people that surrounded us and our area.  3 9 Sometimes he told me to close my eyes when he start  40 telling me the boundaries.  "Try to imagine" he used  41 to tell me.  "Close your eyes and listen to me  42 closely."  I think all old people are like that.  All  43 the old chiefs are like that.  44 That's how we are trained, not to forget.  But some  45 of us, we do forget because we are young, but it comes  46 back later on in the feast hall when you start hearing  47 history on other clans, when they put up a feast. 28  W. Wilson (for Plaintiffs)  Cross Exam by Mr. Mackenzie  1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  Q  11  A  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  Q  20  A  21  22  Q  23  24  A  25  Q  26  A  27  Q  28  A  29  Q  30  A  31  Q  32  A  33  34  Q  35  A  36  Q  37  A  38  Q  39  A  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  Q  Then it comes back to you, the boundaries, because  sometimes there is three clans around your area, have  the same boundary on top of the mountains and the  river, and that's why you see the big rivers.  They  have centre line, because they are really strict them  days on trespassing.  If you want to catch fish, you  catch it on your own side.  You don't cross.  Or if  there is beaver, otter up on that side, you stay on  your own side.  You wouldn't trap on another person's territory?  No.     They were really strict them days.     They warn you  once.     If you caught again they — you know you lose  your scalp.     That's the real  olden days.     It doesn't  happen no more.     But we  still pretty strict  on  our  territory.     Anyway,   that's what he used to  say to me,  tell me  close my eyes when he start telling things,  how we  got that area,   before he was at Xsi  Gwil  Gwalgwit.  Where is that?  Gail Creek.  When he got that Xsi Biiyoosxwit from  Daniel Skawil, that's when he moved.  I see.  So do you have any idea when that might have  been?  No, I don't.  It's a long time.  Before you were born?  Yes.  And —  Did he tell you — I'm sorry.  Daniel Skawil showed him the traditional boundary.  Yes.  That's when it come out.  I see.  When he turned it over to Willie, Willie Wilson.  And  from then on he showed my uncle, William Wale, my dad.  Your dad?  My dad goes out with him there.  Your Dad's name?  Charles Wilson.  Yes.  And Charles Wilson, my Dad's sister,  Willie Wilson,  Martha's her name.  That's why he goes out with him.  And he tell me the area.  He spoke about the area,  shows William Wale, Ben Wale, other uncle.  He goes  out a couple of times out there.  And every time they  come back trapping, they all get together and talk  things over with the family, the immediate family, and  we used to listen in.  Did Daniel Skawil used to trap up there too? 29  W. Wilson (for Plaintiffs)  Cross Exam by Mr. Mackenzie  1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  MR.  MR.  MR.  MR.  MR.  MR.  A  Oh, yes, that's where he spend most of his time in the  early days.  He's a real good trapper.  And he had to  put up a big feast, and he didn't have enough money  and the hides and everything, so he talked to my great  uncle Willie, if Willie could help him put up that big  feast.  It costs really a lot of money and hides,  everything.  So Willie did it.  That's how Willie got  that area.  In return to pay Willie back Daniel give  him that area.  So every village, the whole eight  village were there to witness what was happening, so  everybody knows.  Every high chiefs in each village  know the transfer of that land to Willie Wilson.  And  he knows Daniel Skawil give them the — they walk the  boundaries them days.  So that's how we know the  boundary, the traditional boundary, not the one D.I. A.  give out them days.  Q  And do you recall what the feast was for when they  handed over the territory to Willie Wilson?  A  That's what it was for.  They had to show the  people — oh, on — Daniel Skawil's feast?  Q  Yes.  A      No,   I didn't know.     I don't know what  it was  for.  When Willie helped him.     But they set up another  feast,   my uncle did,   to show the people that he got  that land,   so there are no conflict whatsoever.     He  had to show  all  the villages,   the high  chiefs.     That's  how we  got that area up there.  Q      Have you heard  of   other  occasions  on which  territories  have been transferred from one House to another?  A      There is a  few,   I think.  Q      What  sort  of  reasons  are there for the  transfer?  A      I don't know.     These  happen in the  olden days,   early  days.  Q       I see.  A  I was young, but I heard some long time ago.  Q  Albert Tait apparently said that that land was  transferred to Willie Wilson when — about 1909.  Do  you have any knowledge of the date?  A  No, I don't.  GRANT:  Where was that reference from?  MACKENZIE:  It was from Neil Sterritt's field notes.  GRANT:  I see.  MACKENZIE:  I'll just give that to you.  GRANT:  That's all right.  I just wanted to know if it was  in some affidavit.  MACKENZIE:  Q  Albert says that Djogaslee paid for the funeral of a 30  W. Wilson (for Plaintiffs)  Cross Exam by Mr. Mackenzie  1 brother of Daniel Skawil, but you never heard what the  2 reason was for the first feast?  3 A  I didn't know the reason, but I was told that he  4 helped.  I guess that's what it is.  5 Q  I understand.  6 A  It was a big feast.  That's why Daniel himself  7 couldn't handle it alone.  8 MR. GRANT:  Okay.  Just to clear up the record, he said — the  9 note that you have is dated February 8th, 19 83, and he  10 said this happened when he was a young boy, about 75  11 years ago.  So he says about 75 years ago.  12 MR. MACKENZIE:  Yes.  13 MR. GRANT:  And that quote, of course, is the quote from the  14 notebook.  15 THE WITNESS:  A little before my time.  16 MR. GRANT:  A little before your time.  17 MR. MACKENZIE:  18 Q  In your interrogatory 59A, which is attached to  19 Exhibit 2, I am going to put it in front of you.  You  20 said that:  21  22 "The only time we can give territory is for  23 compensation if a member of my House takes the  24 life of somebody in another house."  25  26 Do you recall seeing that?  27 A  Yes.  That's the Indian law.  2 8        Q  Yes.  But in addition there are other times when  29 territory can be transfered?  30 A  Oh, yes.  Like when you help another chief.  31 Q  Yes.  32 A  And the chief you help will have to get his House  33 together to talk things over before he could do that,  3 4 before he could sign over or give part of a land away.  35 The whole clan has to agree before you could do that.  36 MR. GRANT:  You say the clan.  I mean, I can do it on redirect.  37 I just want to clarify what it is you are referring  3 8            to, clan or house.  3 9 MR. MACKENZIE:  Perhaps you should do it on redirect, if you  40 don't mind.  41 Q  I was going to ask you about that actually.  Did  42 Willie — Willie probably — presumably had no  43 knowledge of whether Daniel Skawil's House and clan  44 members had agreed to the transfer, but he didn't tell  45 about that, did he?  46 A  No, he didn't tell me about.  47 Q  Okay.  Did — did Willie tell you about different 31  W. Wilson (for Plaintiffs)  Cross Exam by Mr. Mackenzie  1 creeks in this trapping territory? Did iie give you  2 the names?  3 MR. GRANT:  Which?  4 MR. MACKENZIE:  5 Q  Willie Wilson registered trapping territory.  6 A  There is few — I think there is two or three lakes,  7 but I forgot the name.  8 Q  Do you remember what —  9 A  And he uses Indian names.  10 Q  It's difficult to remember?  11 A  I don't remember at all.  12 Q  You have said that Willie told you about the  13 boundaries.  Can you remember any of the names that he  14 may have told you?  15 A  Like the Xsilaadamus?  16 Q  Did he mention —  17 A  Luu Xsi Biiyoosxwit.  18 Q  That was Irving Creek, wasn't it?  19 A  Yes.  Xsi Txemsem.  20 Q  That's the Nass River?  21 A  Nass River, yes.  Sto'ot Xsi Txemsem.  22 Q  And that's the Bell Irving River?  23 A  Bell Irving River.  24 MR. GRANT:  Just for the record, those are referred to under  25 paragraph seven of Exhibit 602.  The first one is  26 number 2 under creeks.  The second one was number 1  27 under creeks.  The third one was number 1 under  28 rivers, and the fourth one was number 2 under rivers.  2 9 MR. MACKENZIE:  30 Q  Did Willie ever mention Shanalope to you, Willie  31 Wilson?  3 2        A  Not that I remember, no.  Maybe he did.  33        Q  How about — did he ever mention Sanskisoot?  3 4 MR. GRANT:  All I am concerned about is the pronounciation.  He  35 may not recognize your pronunciation, so maybe you  36 could — if you gave it to Ms. Sampson, she could be  37 sure the pronounciation is right.  That's all.  38 THE INTERPRETER: Shanalope.  Sanskisoot.  It's not spelt like  3 9 the way in English like.  40 MR. MACKENZIE:  41 Q  Do you remember Willie Wilson mentioning those names  42 to you?  43 A      It's  pretty  hard to — the way she said  it.  44 MR.  GRANT:     Mr.   Sterritt,   there is a different spelling which  45 Ms.   Sampson could pronounce of  those  two names,   which  46 is — which will make them sound Gitksan.  47 MR.  MACKENZIE:     Would you have any objection to me asking Ms. 32  W.   Wilson   (for  Plaintiffs)  Cross Exam by Mr.   Mackenzie  1 Sampson to pronounce  those  names?  2 MR.   GRANT:     As Mr.   Sterritt's written them?  3 MR.   MACKENZIE:      Yes.  4 MR. GRANT:  That's why I told you that, so that if you want to  5 pursue it.  I think he may have a little —  6 MR. MACKENZIE: Would he be kind enough to write it down,  7 please, and I'll pass it over.  8 THE INTERPRETER:  Xsana loobit and Xsanhl Gihl Ts'uets.  9 THE WITNESS:  That's the name of the lake.  10 THE INTERPRETER: Xsanhl Gihl Ts'uets.  11 THE WITNESS:  That's the name of the lake.  That's the name of  12 the lake.  Xsan Ts'uuts is another one.  13 MR. MACKENZIE:  I think I have to get the spelling.  14 THE WITNESS:  That's where the An Tsok side is, where those two  15 lakes are.  16 (OFF THE RECORD)  17 MR. GRANT:  I just want — if you weren't finished your answer,  18 proceed.  I just want to be sure that Madam Reporter  19 had the words you were saying.  You were describing  20 these two places, and you started to say when we were  21 off the record to Mr. Mackenzie "I remember those  22 now".  Could you just explain if you have more to say.  23 THE WITNESS:   An Tsok part?  24 MR. GRANT:  Yes.  25 THE WITNESS: On that area, Xsi Luu Biiyoosxwit area, there is An  26 Tsok on this side of Xsi Txemsem.  That's Nass River.  27 MR. MACKENZIE:  2 8        Q  And this side is the east side?  29        A  That's the south side.  3 0 Q  South side?  31 A      There is    — that's where  the An Tsok is,   our camp.  32 Q       Oh,  yes.  33 A      That's where the Gwin Na Giist run  into Xsi  Txemsem.  3 4 Q       Yes.  3 5 A      There is a big area  in that An Tsok,   they  call  An  36 Tsok.     And when the trappers  go out early in the fall,  37 doesn't matter who,   Lax  Gibuu,   Lax  Seel,   Gisgaast,  3 8 everybody,   they move into that An Tsok.     They put up  3 9 fish because  there is  a narrows  there,  where  it  40 narrows  down,  and that's where they get their fish,  41 and they put  fish up for winter  supply.  42 But that's where Ye'e's  camp is,   Willie  Skawil.  43 That's my great uncle,   great great uncle.     Daniel  44 Skawil,  he's  got a  cabin there too,  and it's  always  45 been there  for however many years.     But he called  it  46 An Tsok.  47 And there is a lake up in behind there.  That's 33  W. Wilson (for Plaintiffs)  Cross Exam by Mr. Mackenzie  1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  where that — I heard that Ts'uuts, but I couldn't  remember how they pronounce it.  I was a little boy  when they told me the names.  There is little creeks,  springs, and I can't remember the names within the  area.  MR. GRANT:  Just there is a new name.  You said Willie Skawil  was there.  THE WITNESS:  No, I said Daniel Skawil.  MR. GRANT:  Daniel Skawil and —  THE WITNESS: Willie Wilson.  MR. GRANT:  Okay.  MR. MACKENZIE:  Q  Did you ever go up to Djogaslee's cabin at the meeting  of the Gwin Na Giist on the Nass River?  A  Two years ago I went up.  I fly up and we land on that  lake above the cabin, but the cabins were down on the  ground.  They collapsed.  Q  And I just want to get that clear in my mind.  That  was on the south shore of the Nass River, wasn't it?  A  Yes.  Q  Yes.  And was it — do you recall whether it was on  the east or the west bank of the Gwin Na Giist River?  A  The east bank.  Q  Now, we had Mr. Sterritt assist us in giving us the  Gitksan spellings for certain English names, and I  don't think it's clear yet what those corresponding  names were, and I wonder if Mr. Grant would agree if I  could just read out or have Alice Sampson read out the  corresponding English and Gitksan names for the place  names we have just discussed.  MR. GRANT:  I have no problem with that.  I will propose that  this piece of paper, if you want, can even be marked  as an exhibit, because then the judge can look at it.  And it saves us a little time on the record.  MR. MACKENZIE:  Okay.  MR. GRANT:  It would be a half piece of paper, because there is  a note you have on the bottom.  MR. MACKENZIE:  Okay.  Well, I'll tender this as the next  exhibit, then.  The ink on this piece of paper, the  ink writing is Mr. Sterritt's handwriting, and the  blue ink and the black ink is Ms. Sampson's  handwriting.  (OFF THE RECORD)  MR. GRANT:  This exhibit, which I think will be six, I agree  with what you say, Mr. Mackenzie, there is an arrow 34  W.   Wilson   (for Plaintiffs)  Cross Exam by Mr.   Mackenzie  1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  A  16  17  18  19  20  Q  21  A  22  Q  23  A  24  25  26  Q  27  A  28  Q  29  A  30  Q  31  A  32  Q  33  34  35  36  A  37  Q  38  A  39  Q  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  A  47  from the word   "Sans.cisoot",   that's the English.     I  don't think it is  actually an English word,   but it may  be a word from the map,   and then in blue  ink and  equals  this  other word.     There is an arrow down from  that other word to the last word  on the Gitksan side,  which  I understand is — would be a spelling for  Sanskisoot.     That is the  last word.     The middle word  "Xsan Tsuuts"  is another word that Mr.  Wilson  said in  the course  of  that exchange,  which Ms.   Sampson  recorded.  (EXHIBIT  NO.   6   -   PIECE  OF  PAPER WITH  HANDWRITTEN  NAMES   IN  ENGLISH   AND  GITKSAN)  Pretty  hard for me  to remember that,   but he  told me  the name,   but  I couldn't pronounce the right name  of  that.     It could be  Xsanhl Gihl  Ts'uuts  or Xsan  Ts'uuts,   either one  of  those.     I don't know,   but the  Ts'uuts was  there.     I  remember Ts'uuts now.  So that was  the lake up behind the cabin?  Around there  some place.  Yes.  Ts'uuts  is a good name for me,   coast people.     He  mentioned quite a few  of  those little springs,   you  know.  Yes.  But I can't remember the names.  And were those the springs up behind the cabin?  No, in that area across the river.  Oh, yes.  On the south side of the river?  On the north side.  Yes. Now, we've got our discussion about Xsan  Ts'uuts.  I wanted to ask you about the other name  that was written on Exhibit 6, and that was Xsana  Loobit.  Do you remember that?  I heard the name, but I don't know which area.  Did you hear that name from Willie Wilson?  I forgot who, because I was too young there.  I'm handing another name to Ms. Sampson to ask her to  pronounce.  I am going to ask you whether you heard  that name from Willie Wilson.  And Mr. Sterritt has  assisted — I have written the name as I understand it  in red, Mr. Sterritt has written his probably correct  understanding in blue, and now we are handing it to  Ms. Sampson to see what she is going to do with it.  The one in red is Wii Ska Coole, and the one in blue  is Wii skahl Guuhl. 35  W. Wilson (for Plaintiffs)  Cross Exam by Mr. Mackenzie  1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  Q  A  MR. GRANT  MR.  MR.  MR.  MR.  MR.  MR.  MR.  MR.  MS.  MR.  MR.  MR.  MR.  MR.  Do you remember Willie Wilson telling you about that?  Yes, I remember now.  Wii skahl Guuhl, that's — I  think was northeast of that territory.  It could be on  Gyolugyet's territory, I don't know, but I heard them.  Can I ask for clarification.  Mr. Sterritt — I'll  say for clarification what he's done is used the  phonetics, which — is endeavoring to use the  phonetics where the word on the paper can be  pronounced by a Gitksan person by a standard that  generally is understood by Ms. Sampson or Ms. Howard  or anyone else.  I just wondered if you could clarify  for me, Mr. Mackenzie, where that spelling came from;  in other words, was it from a map  or is it just from again your own  MACKENZIE:  This is from a document.  GRANT:  From a trapline registration?  MACKENZIE:  From a trapline file.  GRANT:  I see.  MACKENZIE:     But wasn't from —  I don't think it was  from a  registration.  GRANT:     So it may  have been written by a non-Gitksan —  MACKENZIE:     I don't  know.  GRANT:     You don't know who would have written that  spelling?  or  from a document  phonetics?  I  can assist.     It's from the Joseph  KOENIGSBERG:  believe it's  from Wallace  Danes.  GRANT:  I just wanted to clarify.  MACKENZIE:  Danes — I  a letter  a trapline file, and it's from  Danes.  It's in a letter from Wallace  which is  Q  Do you know the English name for that creek,  Wii Skahl Guuhl?  A  No.  Q  Mr. Wilson, your evidence has been very clear that  your House, Djogaslee, claims the Irving Creek  territory.  Is anyone in the Skawil family still — is  anyone in the Skawil family still alive that claims  that territory? Do you know?  A  I think Skiik'm lax ha now is up in that area.  Q  Is he north of your area?  A  Yes.  Q  Johnny Wilson?  A  Johnny Wilson.  GRANT:  You are asking if anyone  claims what's described in  Creek territory?  MACKENZIE:  Yes.  GRANT:  So he's asking if anyone  from Skiik'm lax  the affidavit as  ha's House  the Irving  is claiming the — from 36  W. Wilson (for Plaintiffs)  Cross Exam by Mr. Mackenzie  1 Skiik'm lax ha's House claims the Irving Creek  2 territory that you described as Djogaslee's.  3 THE WITNESS:   Oh, no, no one claim.  4 MR. GRANT:  Obviously to his knowledge.  5 MR MACKENZIE:  Yes.  6 Q  When you said that, Mr. Wilson, did you mean that  7 Skiik'm lax ha's taken over the Skawil territory north  8 of Irving Creek, or was there — this is another  9 question.  Was there a Skawil territory north of  10 Irving Creek?  11 A  Yes.  12 Q  And now that's Skiik'm lax ha?  13 A  Yes, that's the same name, yes.  14 Q  Same name?  15 A  Same House, yes.  16 Q  And where does your boundary, traditional boundary run  17 on Irving Creek? Which part of the creek does it run  18 on? Which bank of the creek, if any, does your  19 traditional boundary run on?  20 A  It's on the south or east.  I don't know how that area  21 sits.  It could be south bank, southeast.  22 Q  So would you say Irving Creek is outside your  23 territory?  24 A  Irving Creek is outside my territory, yes.  25 Q  And therefore I take it you would agree that Irving  26 Creek is in the Skawil territory?  27 A  In the Skiik'm lax ha?  2 8 Q  Yes.  2 9 A  Yes.  3 0 Q  That's what David Gunanoot said in December 18, 1982.  31 He said that Irving Creek — sorry.  He's reported to  32 have said by Mr. Neil John Sterritt that Irving Creek  33 is the territory of Skawil, Lax Seel, of Kuldo. Do  3 4 you agree with that?  35 A  Uh-huh.  36 Q  So can I ask you that about paragraph 5 of your  37 affidavit. I just want to point out to you that in  3 8 paragraph 5, 6 lines from the beginning you say the  3 9 boundary goes northwest up the west bank of Xsi luu  40 Biiyoosxwit, Irving Creek.  So you just told me that  41 it's on the east bank.  42 MR. GRANT:  Or the south bank.  43 MR. MACKENZIE:  Or the south bank.  44 A  Because I didn't know how — what you call it.  45 Q  Did you want to change your affidavit to correct that?  46 Did you want to change to correct your affidavit to  47 the east bank? 37  W. Wilson (for Plaintiffs)  Cross Exam by Mr. Mackenzie  1 A  If I could look at the map first.  I don't know which  2 is north.  3 MR. GRANT:  I have a copy if the witness wants to look at it.  4 MR. MACKENZIE:  Did you want him to look at it?  5 MR. GRANT:  Well, he's asked to look at it.  Only because he has  6 asked to look at it.  He indicated in his answer when  7 he says south or east, he said I'm not sure on the  8 directions, and if he wants to look at it, I think he  9 should be entitled to.  10 MR. MACKENZIE:   Let me just ask this question, Mr. Grant.  11 Before you look at the map, you can't say whether you  12 want to change this from west to east or not?  13 MR. GRANT:  He said he would like to look at the map in  14 answering that question.  That's what he has asked to  15 do.  So obviously his answer — he would like to look  16 at the map before he answers your question.  17 MR. MACKENZIE:  18 Q  Well, I wonder, could I ask the question — so you  19 can't answer the question without consulting the map?  20 A  Yes, because right now where I am sitting, I could say  21 east, because I know that creek, but it could be west  22 or south.  23 Q  Yes.  Please look at the map.  24 MR. GRANT:  This is a map I'm showing him.  All it is is a photo  25 reproduction of 9A, the map that you have, which has  26 the — some of the underlying features.  For example,  27 it has the name Irving Creek and the names of some  2 8 rivers which are on the underlay, and it has just that  29 overlay on it.  That's the only overlay.  3 0 MS. KOENIGSBERG:  If you don't mind, Mr. Grant, I will come  31 around so I can go look at it too.  3 2 MR. GRANT:  Yes.  Sure.  I have not shown it to him, so that  33 counsel can look at it first.  34  3 5 (OFF THE RECORD)  36  37 MR. GRANT:  I just explained to the witness — Mr. MacKenzie  3 8 wanted me to reiterate this, and this is what I said.  3 9 I said that this map, which the witness has in front  40 of him, is the reduction of map 9A which was tendered  41 in court around June 2 8th or June 2 9th of 1988 during  42 the direct examination of Mr. Sterritt.  It is a  43 reduced copy of a larger map.  It is labelled  44 "external and internal boundaries of the Gitksan  45 territories".  46 THE WITNESS:   Uh-huh.  47 MR. MACKENZIE: 38  W. Wilson (for Plaintiffs)  Cross Exam by Mr. Mackenzie  1 Q  Now, can you see your territory up there marked  2 Djogaslee?  3 A      Uh-huh.  4 Q       And —  5 MS.   KOENIGSBERG:     I  don't know  if  he ~ he  said   "uh-huh".  6 THE WITNESS:  Yes.  7 MR. MACKENZIE:  8 Q  That gives you an idea of the directions.  The Nass  9 River you can see runs east and west or sort of  10 southeast to northwest.  11 MR. GRANT:  Just a second.  12 THE WITNESS:  That's this one here.  13 MR. GRANT:  Are there — on this particular map is the north  14 sign on it, or is it going directly north?  I am  15 informed that north is at the top of the map.  Just  16 showing the witness where the Nass River is.  17 THE WITNESS:  Is that the highway?  18 MR. MACKENZIE:  Yes.  19 MR. GRANT:  Yes, that's the highway to the *Meziaden junction.  20 THE WITNESS:  This must be the Nass River.  21 MR. GRANT:  And the Nass goes up here and along.  That's right.  22 What you have pointed to is the Nass River, that's  23 right.  24 THE WITNESS:     So it's  northeast.  25 MR. MACKENZIE:  26 Q  So Irving Creek is on which part of your traditional  27 territory?  You are looking at map 9A now?  2 8        A  You mean my area?  29 Q  Yes.  30 A  On this side of the creek.  31 Q  I am saying —  32 MR. GRANT:  Just ~ okay.  33 MR. MACKENZIE:  3 4        Q  Irving Creek is on which direction, which boundary of  35 your territory?  36 MR. GRANT:  Okay.  The witness pointed at map 9A — just before  37 he answers your next question, he pointed at map 9A  3 8 and he pointed at the northern boundary of Djogaslee,  3 9 the line that runs in a general northeast/southwest  40 direction dividing on — in red the name Djogaslee  41 from the area named Skiik'm lax ha, and he was  42 pointing at that.  And then he pointed below towards  43 his name and said that's where his territory was.  44 MR. MACKENZIE:  That's correct.  45 MR. GRANT:  I want that on the record.  You can go and explain.  46 MR. MACKENZIE:  That's correct.  47 Q  So Irving Creek is the northeast boundary of your 39  W. Wilson (for Plaintiffs)  Cross Exam by Mr. Mackenzie  1 territory, correct?  2 A  Yes.  3 Q  All right.  Well, that's — and so your territory is  4 on the — I'm sorry, I was wrong.  Correct my last  5 question.  Your Irving Creek is on the northwest  6 boundary of your territory, correct?  7 A  It's that way.  8 Q  Yes.  9 A  Northwest.  10 Q  Pointing to northwest.  Yes.  11 A  Yes.  12 Q  And so your territory is on the southeast side of  13 Irving Creek?  14 A  Southeast side of Irving Creek.  15 Q  That's right?  16 A  Yes.  17 Q       And so we are  looking at that.     Irving Creek therefore  18 is  in the Skiik'm lax ha  territory,   correct?  19 A  Yes.  20 Q  So your boundary runs down the southeast bank of  21 Irving Creek?  22 A  Uh-huh.  23 Q  Correct?  24 A  Yes.  25 Q  Yes.  So you would like to correct your affidavit,  26 paragraph 5, where it says the "west bank", it should  27 be the "east bank", correct?  2 8   MR. GRANT:  Well, from — so east bank.  It should be the  2 9 southeast bank.  30 MR. MACKENZIE:   Yes.  Okay.  31 MR. GRANT:  And that is paragraph 5 of Exhibit 6 02, the sixth  32 line down, "The northwest up the southeast bank".  33 MR. MACKENZIE:  3 4 Q  There is no road access into that territory, is there?  35 A  No.  36 Q  No.  And I take it that you've been busy, as you  37 mentioned with all your employment, and it would be  3 8 difficult for you to get up to Irving Creek area on  3 9 the weekend trapping?  40 A  Yes.  41 Q  Yes.  And I take it that's why you didn't get up there  42 to trap?  43 A  Yes.  44 Q  Now, you say that your House claims all three  45 territories, Irving Creek and the Gail Creek and  46 Sagat, correct?  47 A  Yes. 40  W. Wilson (for Plaintiffs)  Cross Exam by Mr. Mackenzie  1 Q  Yes.  In your interrogatory at 59A, which is Exhibit  2 2 — I beg your pardon.  59C you were asked the  3 boundaries of your House's territories — were you  4 asked the boundaries of your House's territory?  Do  5 you recall that? Do you recall being asked that on  6 your interrogatory?  7 A  On what territory?  8 Q  Well — and then you answered — you answered with a  9 reference to the Irving Creek territory, didn't you?  10 A  Oh, yes.  11 Q      Yes.     Why didn't you mention the  other two  12 territories?  13 A  Well, because I registered this one.  14 Q  Registered trapline?  15 A  Yes.  16 Q      So did you  consider  therefore that your House  didn't  17 own the  other  two territories?  18 A      Oh,   no,   I know we  owned that territory,  my House.  19 Q      I  see.     So — yes,   but you personally don't have  a  20 registered trapline  on the  other two territories?  21 A      No.     That's why I didn't bring it up at the  time.  22 Q      Was the reason that you didn't mention the  other  23 territories  because Ax dii Ts'eex  owned the Gail  Creek  24 territory?  25 A      His name was  on there,   that's why I didn't mention at  26 the time,   but it's —  it's my area.     They are my  27 territories.     But  Ax dii Ts'eex and whose  his name —  28 his  brother on that Sagat.     That's  Sophia Mowatt's  2 9 family register  that,   Sagat.  30 Q       Sophia Mowatt?  31 A      That's why  I didn't mention it on this.     That's where  32 I  come from,  33 Q  Sophia Mowatt has a registered trapline on the Sagat  34 territory?  35 A      Sagat.     I don't know which  name they use.     I didn't  36 ask them.     But  she told me  a long time ago that  she  37 was going to register.     I said it's  okay,   but  it's  38 under  Ivan Johnson's  name.     He  got the name from that  3 9 territory,   Ska  Giihl  —  not Ska  Giihl.     Ax  Weegasxw.  40 Q      Who has  the name Ska Giihl?  41 A      Ivan.     He's  got two names,   but he's using  one  now.  42 It's  Ax Weegasxw.     That's the high  chief's  name.  43 Q      And why did Sophia Mowatt register that territory?  44 A      Ivan moved to Kitwangak.     He married a lady at  45 Kitwangak?  46 Q  So Sophia is a member of your House?  47 A  Yes, we are all one big family. 41  W. Wilson (for Plaintiffs)  Cross Exam by Mr. Mackenzie  1 Q And she registered tnat to protect that family?  2 A I don't know if it's her or Pat Sampson.  3 Q Either Sophia or Pat —  4 A Or her daughter Pat, yes.  5 Q — registered the territory to protect it?  6 A To protect it, yes, to hold it.  7 Q And that's the area that you claim?  8 A Yes.  9 MR. GRANT:   That is one of the areas.  10 MR. MACKENZIE:  11 Q Sorry, that's the Sagat area that you claim?  12 A Sagat.  13 Q In your affidavit the traditional boundaries extend  14 beyond Sophia Mowatt's registered trapline, don't  15 they?  16 MR. GRANT:  Sagat?  17 MR. MACKENZIE:  18 Q The Sagat boundaries go beyond Sophia Mowatt's  19 registered trapline?  20 A I haven't seen the map.  21 Q Oh.  22 A But I know the boundaries of our territory there,  23 Sagat.  2 4 Q Do you know where Sophia Mowatt's  registered  25 trapline — do you  know which side  of the Bulkley  26 River?  27 A Both sides.  But her boy register on the south side of  2 8 Xsan Do'o, Bulkley River.  You see, we own the both  2 9 sides.  Our territory.  30 Q Yes.  31 A But the one on the south side is under Willie Mowatt's  32 name now.  I think he registered that area.  It used  33 to be on the Sam Jones —  34 Q Sam Jones a member of your House?  3 5 A Yes.  36 Q Does his name appear on your genealogy?  37 A No.  He's deceased.  3 8 Q He passed away?  3 9 A Yes.  40 Q Well, don't all the members of your House, deceased  41 and living, appear on your genealogy?  42 A Yes.  43 Q But Sam Jones' name doesn't?  44 A No, it didn't.  45 Q Why isn't his name  on the genealogy?  46 A I don't know.  47 MR.   GRANT:     Just a moment. 42  W. Wilson (for Plaintiffs)  Cross Exam by Mr. Mackenzie  1 MR. MACKENZIE: Did you want me to stop asking the questions?  2 MR. GRANT:  Before he answers your question, I just want to say  3 that of course it would be literally impossible to  4 have all members living and dead appearing on any  5 single genealogy.  The genealogies are an effort to  6 list — all living and those deceased members are  7 recorded, but you asked if not all living and dead  8 members are on the genealogy.  Such a feat would be  9 totally impossible, as these go back hundreds of  10 generations.  But go ahead with your question.  That  11 was your last question.  That's why I wish to —  12 MR. MACKENZIE:  13 Q  You know that Sam Jones had the registered trapline on  14 the Sagat territory for quite awhile, didn't he?  15 A  That's on the —  16 Q  On the west side of the Bulkley.  17 A  Yes.  18 Q  And how is he — is he related to you in any way?  19 A  In some way, yes, because when my family — he always  20 puts up feast and he's always been there.  And I  21 didn't really ask my mother what part of Sam Jones is  22 in our family, but he's there all the time, so he must  23 be in our family.  24 Q  You are not clear about how he's related though?  25 A  No, I'm not really clear on that, no.  26 Q  Now, Sam Jones' registered trapline, is it your  27 understanding that Sam Jones' registered trapline was  2 8 covered — covered the western part of your Sagat  2 9 territory?  30 A  Uh-huh.  South side of the Bulkley River.  31 Q  The other side from Sophia Mowatt, correct?  3 2 A  Opposite side.  33 Q  The opposite side, yes, that's what I mean.  3 4 A  Yes.  3 5 Q  I think Bulkley runs about north south there, so  36 Sophia is on the east and Sam Jones was on the west;  37 is that your recollection?  3 8 A  I think Sophia is on the north, northeast.  3 9 Q  Well, let's say northeast — Sophia is on the  40 northeast and Sam Jones' trapline was on the  41 southwest.  42 A  Southwest.  43 Q  Opposite sides, right?  44 A  Yes.  45 Q      Okay.     Now,  do you know how far down the Bulkley  Sam  46 Jones'   registered trapline went?  47 A      It  follows down the Xsi  Yax Yagit.     That's  the Mudflat 43  W. Wilson (for Plaintiffs)  Cross Exam by Mr. Mackenzie  1 Creek.  2 Q That's the northern boundary of  Sagat,   isn't it?  3 A I thought it was all  on the west end.  4 Q Yes,   the west  side  of  the Bulkley.  5 A Yes.  6 Q That's the northern part of that section, isn't it,  7 Mudflat Creek?  8 A Yes.  9 Q How far down south does it go from Mudflat Creek?  10 MR. GRANT:  You are talking now of the territory or the  11 registered trapline?  12 MR. MACKENZIE:  Registered trapline of Sam Jones.  13 THE WITNESS:  Sam Jones only comes to the Xsi Yax Yagit.  14 Q Is that the Porphyry Creek?  15 A That's the Mudflat Creek.  16 Q Doesn't go south of Mudflat Creek?  17 A It goes south, yes.  18 Q How far south?  19 A To Sta Gabsit.  20 Q Sta Gabist is Porphyry Creek, isn't it?  21 A Porphyry, yes.  That runs into Xsan Do'o —  22 Q Into the Bulkley River, yes.  23 A Yes.  2 4 Q Well, Sam Jones* trapline goes further south than  25 that.  It goes down past Boulder Creek.  Were you  26 aware of that?  27 MR. GRANT:  The registered?  28 THE WITNESS:  The registered trapline, yes.  29 MR. MACKENZIE:  30 Q Were you aware of that?  31 A Goes as far as Bulkely — I mean Boulder.  32 Q Is Boulder Creek in your territory?  33 A At one time, yes.  3 4 Q Well, you say Boulder Creek was one time in your  35 traditional territory?  36 A Well, it's always been in our territory.  37 Q Yes.  3 8 A But  I think the Carrier people moved in for  some  3 9 reason or another.     I don't know.     No one explained it  40 to me.  41 Q I see.  Do you have any idea when that might have  42 happened?  43 A No, I don't.  44 Q Do you know Steve Robinson?  45 A Yes.  46 Q His  chief's name is  Spoowk,   isn't it?  47 A Spoowk,   yes. 44  W. Wilson (for Plaintiffs)  Cross Exam by Mr. Mackenzie  1 Q He says that the boundary there is Boulder Creek.  Do  2 you agree with that?  3 MR. GRANT:  Boundary between what?  4 MR. MACKENZIE:  5 Q The boundary between Djogaslee and the Wet'suwet'en  6 people.  7 A That's right.  8 Q Is that right?  9 A That's  right.  10 Q But that's not what you are claiming today,   is  it?  11 A No,  because  on account  of  that.  12 Q So the boundary  is moved up north  of  that,  up to Sta  13 Gabsit?  14 A That's how far we go now.  15 Q You go to Sta Gabsit now?  16 A We could still go to — right up to Boulder Creek, but  17 we have to settle that in feast.  18 Q I see.  19 A Explain to the people that trying to claim it.  20 Q Yes.  21 A Then we go back there again.  22 Q So you have a bit of a dispute there between the  23 people —  24 A There is no dispute.  25 Q Oh, I see.  26 A It's just a mistake they put in there.  There is no  27 dispute whatsoever.  They know.  2 8 Q Yes.  2 9 A The older people in Carrier, older people know, but  30 the new people, the new generation, they don't know  31 the adaawk of that area.  That's why they doing that.  32 Q Do you know the adaawk of that area?  33 A Well, not Boulder Creek, no.  34 Q How far down do you think your traditional territory  3 5 should go in that part?  36 A Right down to the Bulkley River.  37 Q Well, how far south — should it go south of Boulder  3 8 Creek?  3 9 A No.  Right at Boulder Creek.  That's traditional  40 boundary in the olden day.  41 Q What makes you say that?  42 A Because we were told that.  43 Q Who would tell you that?  44 A Sophia Mowatt and the late Moses Wilson, he explained  45 that area to me and my mother.  We used to live in  46 Sagat.  47 Q Where did you live there? 45  W. Wilson (for Plaintiffs)  Cross Exam by Mr. Mackenzie  1 A  Right on the flats of Sagat.  2 Q  Was that on the west side or the east side?  3 A  I always say on the north side of the Bulkley River.  4 Q  I'm sorry, is it on Sophia Mowatt's side or —  5 A  Yes, my mother used to put up berries there.  6 Q  Kathleen Wilson?  7 A  Yes.  8 Q  And she told you that the boundary went down to  9 Boulder Creek?  10 A  All the way up to Boulder Creek, yes.  11 Q  Yes.  Did you know Sophia Mowatt well?  12 A  Yes.  13 Q  How is she related to you?  14 A  She's supposed to be my aunt.  15 Q  I'm handing you a letter written by Sophia Mowatt, and  16 just going to ask you whether you can recognize her  17 handwriting or her signature.  It may not be her  18 handwriting.  The number of the document is on the  19 bottom of the copy I handed to Mr. Grant.  So if I  20 could — Mr. Grant, I wonder —  21 MR. GRANT:  Just give me a chance to read it.  22 MR. MACKENZIE:  All right.  Mr. Grant is just looking over the  23 document, so I'll just hold on before I give it to  24 you.  25 THE WITNESS:  You want me to read it or —  26 MR. GRANT:  Yes, you can read it if you want.  27 MR. MACKENZIE:  Yes, you can read it, but let me ask you what I  28 wanted to ask you.  I wanted to see whether you could  2 9 identify Sophia Mowatt's signature on page four, but  30 you are certainly free to read it as Mr. Grant says.  31  3 2 (OFF THE RECORD)  33  3 4 A  I will have to say no, I never did see Sophia's  35 signature before.  36 Q  Okay.  Then I don't think there is any point in going  37 on with it then.  38 A  No.  3 9 Q      Could  I  ask you some questions about it?  40 MR.   GRANT:     Let him read it.  41 MR.   MACKENZIE:  42 Q      Did you know  Sophia's brother,   Ernest Harris?  43 A      Yes.  44 Q       And did he have the trapline,   registered trapline  45 before  Sophia?  46 A      I didn't know that.     Nobody told us what they were  47 doing. 46  W. Wilson (for Plaintiffs)  Cross Exam by Mr. Mackenzie  1  Q  2  A  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  12  Q  13  A  14  Q  15  A  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  Q  23  A  24  25  Q  26  A  27  28  29  30  Q  31  A  32  Q  33  A  34  35  36  Q  37  38  39  A  40  Q  41  A  42  Q  43  44  A  45  Q  46  A  47  I see.  The reason why Sophia is on that land is because Mary  Clark raised her.  That's not her mother.  Her mother  is from Kispiox.  I forgot her name.  And Sophia  figured when her mother died that she'll inherit that  area, but it * s not that way.  You see, we didn't even  know Ernest registered that area.  They didn't tell  the family, and — but I know Sophia wanted to  register it.  She asked me before I even got the name,  because I was in that family, and she must have asked  my uncle William and Ben.  Ben Wale?  Ben Wale.  Yes.  And so she must have asked them, because Ben knows  that Ivan Johnson got the name from that area, and  he's supposed to be the one that register that land.  I mean, that area to hold it.  But they must have  agreed, and I agreed for Sophia to hold it, but I  don't know which ones registered, Sophia or Pat, like  I say now.  Did you know —  But that belongs to Djogaslee, Ax Dii Ts'eex, Skawil,  Ax Weegasxw, that area.  All three chiefs own it?  All the whole — actually the whole family, but the  head chiefs, the three chiefs I mentioned.  If it's  going to be hand down again in the feast, that will be  in the feast hall.  You are talking about the registered trapline?  Yes.  Does Ax Dii Ts'eex still have his own House?  Like I say, we have three Houses, all one big family.  His family is my family and my family is his and our  family is Ax Weegasxw.  They are all the same.  You were saying yesterday that Djogaslee — is it  correct Djogaslee's House got full and then Ax Dii  Ts'eex built his own house?  No.  It's the other way around?  Yes.  Ax Dii Ts'eex was full and Djogaslee built his own  House?  Yes.  Did they separate the territories?  Well, they always know what area they have.  You see,  Djogaslee had that area up Xsi Gwil Gwalgwit. 47  W.   Wilson   (for  Plaintiffs)  Cross Exam by Mr.   Mackenzie  1 Q      That is  Gail  Creek?  2 A      And Ax Dii Ts'eex had  Sagat,   two of  them on there,   Ax  3 Weegasxw,  and then when Willie  got that area up in Xsi  4 Gwin Biiyoosxwit.  5 Q  Willie Wilson?  6 A  Willie Wilson.  That's when Djogaslee move out from  7 that area to Gail Creek to Irving Creek.  8 Q  And?  9 A      And  Ax Dii  Ts'eex went that —  10 Q       Ax  Dii Ts'eex went into Gail  Creek?  11 A      Yes.  12 Q  Do you know when that happened?  13 A  No.  14 Q  No.  15 A  But we could still go on that area.  I could go on all  16 area if I want.  So Ax Dii Ts'eex, you can come down  17 to Sagat or could go up the one I am holding up there,  18 providing he tells me.  19 MR. MACKENZIE:   Just for your information, Mr. Grant, this  20 document we were discussing but we haven't marked as  21 an exhibit, Sophia Mowatt's letter, I am handing a  22 copy to you.  It was on our Notice to Admit, but it  23 hasn't been admitted.  24 MR. GRANT:  Which Notice to Admit?  25 MR. MACKENZIE:  The one we just got a response from people in  26 Vancouver.  27 MR. GRANT: It's your document number 1259, part of your trial  2 8 claim —  2 9 MR. MACKENZIE:  It was the August 12, 1988 Notice to Admit.  30 MR. GRANT:  This is the document the witness could not identify?  31 MR. MACKENZIE:  Yes, that's right.  32 Q  Okay.  I just wanted to just ask you some questions  33 about the Gail Creek territory.  Have you been up Gail  3 4 Creek?  3 5         A  Yes.  36 Q  Have you been up Cataline Creek?  37 A  Yes.  3 8        Q  Did you go right up to the headwaters?  3 9        A  Not to the headwaters.  Part of it.  40 Q  Do you know that Ben McKenzie has a cabin up on the  41 height of land just at the headwaters of Cataline  42 Creek?  43 A      I seen Ben's  cabin,   that Hahl  La Gyo'ot.  44 Q      At Mount Thoen?  45 A      Yes.  46 Q      Is that north  of Mount Thoen?  47 MR.  GRANT:     What?     His  cabin? 48  W. Wilson (for Plaintiffs)  Cross Exam by Mr. Mackenzie  1 MR. MACKENZIE:  Yes.  2 A  Yes, he's in around the north side of — according to  3 our traditional area he is not supposed to be in  4 there.  5 Q  I see.  6 A      You see,   his  land  only comes to the Hli gyo'ot and up  7 the — what you  call it —  oh,  down to the Xsi Wii  Luu  8 Geesxwit.     That's  that creek that goes up,   and  then  9 the mouth —  that Hli  gyo'ot this way.     And you  see  10 Ben's boundary  line is  supposed to come  over that  11 mountain,   the ridge  of that mountain,   Hli gyo'ot.  12 Q       Hli gyo'ot  is Mount Thoen,   isn't  it?  13 A      I think that's —  14 MR.   GRANT:     Number  2   on page  4  under mountains  on Exhibit  602.  15 MR. MACKENZIE:  16 Q  So Ben's cabin is in your territory? Is that what  17 you're saying?  18 A  Yes, that's right.  19 Q  And his trapline goes up there, doesn't it?  20 A  That's what — whose his name —  21 MR. GRANT:  You mean his registered trapline?  22 THE WITNESS: Whose his son?  23 MR. MACKENZIE:  24 Q  Kenny McKenzie.  25 A  Kenny McKenzie, yes, he — I was setting traps, I  26 think this three years ago up in that area, and he  27 came along with his ski-doo, and he said, "What are  28 you doing on my trapline?"  I said, "What do you  2 9 mean?"  And he said, "This is my area. My grandfather  30 willed it to me", he said to me.  I said, "You must be  31 crazy.  Even if your grandfather willed it to you, you  3 2 can't do that.  You can't will this land to you  33 because you are a Lax Gibuu." But I showed him my  3 4 boundary and he didn't say anything.  I explained to  35 him.  I said, "Our boundaries don't go through swamp."  36 You never hear an Indian boundary go through a level  37 ground and swamp area.  And that's what I explained to  38 him.  39 I said, "Who told you this is your witness."  "Well,  40 I got the map", he said, "but I haven't got it with  41 me".  I was going to — I asked him about the map.  "I  42 haven't got it with me" he says.  "Well, next time you  43 bring it", I said, "but you have to move your traps  44 off".  And he didn't do it.  So I set my traps  45 right — the last trap he set, and I start setting it  46 there.  I said I wanted to straighten this out, "but  47 your grandfather will have to put up a big feast", I 49  W. Wilson (for Plaintiffs)  Cross Exam by Mr. Mackenzie  1 said, "to explain what you have done to the people,  2 and it's going to cost money."  I told him that.  3 Q  His grandfather was Ben McKenzie?  4 A  Yes.  5 Q       And you know that Ken —  6 MR.  GRANT:     Just a  second.     Were you finished here?  7 THE WITNESS:     No.     "He is doing wrong if he willing you  —  8 giving you a will for  this area"   I said.     "This  is my  9 area.     This  is  Ax Dii  Ts'eex's area now"   I  said.     "And  10 if I  go tell Bruce what's  going on here,  he'll have to  11 go and talk to you and your grandfather."  12 Q       Bruce Johnson?  13 A      Yes.  14 Q       Yes.  15 A      So I don't know  if  Bruce  did talk to him,   because  the  16 next winter he  didn't  set traps  that way no more.     He  17 just  goes as  far  as  that — where  that Hahla gyo'ot  18 is, where it comes  out to the road,   comes  down to the  19 road there.     I don't know who put it in,   Forestry  20 or —  21 Q  Is that the Nadlin Creek Road?  22 A  It's that Wii Luu Geesxwit.  I don't know the name.  23 Q  Is that the creek that runs down into the Suskwa  24 River?  25 A  Yes.  26 Q  And there is a forest service road going up the creek?  27 A  Service road.  2 8 Q      Goes  right up  onto the ridge?  2 9 A      No,   it doesn't go on the  ridge.  3 0 Q       Near  the ridge?  31 A       Yes.  3 2 Q       They  haven't started logging in your  area,   have they?  33 A      Oh,   yes.  3 4 Q      How are  they coming in?     On that road?  35 A      They are really cleaning it off.  36 Q      Which way are they coming in?  37 A      They are coming in through that creek you are talking  3 8 about.  3 9 Q       Yes.     From the  south?  40 A      Through  the swamp from the Hahla gyo'ot into Gail  41 Creek.  42 Q       Yes.  43 A      And down to Cataline.  44 Q       Yes.  45 A  They are all over there now.  And winter before I went  46 in after they burned the slash and there was nothing  47 there.  All the animals move out, and they smell the 50  W. Wilson (for Plaintiffs)  Cross Exam by Mr. Mackenzie  1 smoke and fire, I guess, so moved to Sagat.  And same  2 thing at Sagat, the logging and farmers in there and  3 just east end.  You could still trap a little bit  4 there.  5 Q  Is that on Sophia Mowatt's part?  6 A  Yes.  7 Q  Yes.  Well, you know that Dora Wilson-Kenni has a  8 property down there on Sagat?  9 A  No.  I know there is a place on that Sagat where our  10 village — we have three long houses there a long time  11 ago, and it's marked off as a reserve, and in '64 I  12 think D.I.A. made a mistake and signed it over to  13 Hagwilget.  I think that's why Dora Wilson — I think  14 she's a band manager at that reserve.  They trying to  15 claim it.  And it's not their area and it's not their  16 reserve.  It's Djogaslee's and Ax Dii Ts'eex, Ax  17 Weegasxw.  It's measured out, that reserve, because  18 there is — Paul Ax Weegasxw had a — what you call  19 down on the river bank.  Something like a farm cleared  20 out and buildings there.  But the long houses are in a  21 little further in.  And in '64 I think D.I. A. figured  22 it was open, but it shows on a map "reserve", marked  23 "reserve" on it, but there is no name on it.  And I  24 was working at D.I.A. at the time and the manager  25 showed me the map.  He said that Gitanmaax people  26 reserve.  27 Q  Do you know that the Hagwilget people have a portable  28 mill down there on that reserve?  2 9 A  Yes, they trying to put one in there.  30 Q  Yes.  31 A      And that's when we start talking to them.  32 Q       You told  them that that's your land?  33 A      Yes.  3 4 Q      Did you know  if Dora Wilson-Kenni had private property  3 5 down there?  36 A  No.  37 Q  No?  38 A  No, I don't.  3 9 Q  Just south of the Suskwa River there?  40 A  Must be Don Kenny.  41 Q  Yes, Don Kenny?  42 A      I know Don Kenny.  43 Q      That's her husband?  44 A      Oh — well,   you said Dora Wilson.  45 Q      Dora Wilson-Kenni?  46 MR.   GRANT:     Yes,   you  said Dora Wilson-Kenni,   and then he  said  it  47 must be Don Kenni. 51  W. Wilson (for Plaintiffs)  Cross Exam by Mr. Mackenzie  1 MR. MACKENZIE:  2 Q      That's  right,   yes.     And that's Dora Wilson's husband?  3 A      Yeah,   I know that,  the  one you are talking about.  4 It's  right  on the road.  5 Q       That's again the forest  service road that goes  up  6 there?  7 A  Yes.  8 Q  Up the Suskwa?  9 A  Yes.  And I'm going to claim that.  10 Q  Going to claim the road or Dora Kenni's property?  11 A  Everything.  12 Q  Everything?  13 A  That's why I am here.  14 Q  Yes, I understand.  Well, there is quite a lot of  15 traffic on that road, isn't there?  16 A  Yes, lots of traffic.  17 Q  That's the way people get into that area?  18 A  A lot of loggers.  19 Q  Yes.  Well, we are still talking about the Gail Creek  20 territory.  Can you tell me about the eastern  21 boundary.  Have there been some discussions with the  22 Babine people about the eastern boundary of the  23 eastern territory of the Gail Creek?  24 A  Not that I know of.  25 Q  The maps that we have show that the boundary is moved  26 back and forth a couple of times.  We think it may be  27 because of discussions with the Babine people.  Has  28 anyone talked to you about that?  2 9   MR. GRANT:  Can you be specific to the witness as to where the  30 boundaries move back and forth.  31 MR. MACKENZIE:   I'm just speaking about the eastern boundary of  32 the Gail Creek territory.  Do you know it goes— can  33 you tell me where that eastern boundary is?  3 4 A  Well, it comes over that — what's in the name  3 5 there — Tsoohl Da Geiss.  36 Q  That's the hill?  37 A  That's the hill.  3 8 Q  Now going south?  3 9 A  And down to the Babine River.  40 MR. GRANT: Number 2 on page 4 under hills of Exhibit 602.  41 THE WITNESS:  That's an Indian name of that hill.  That's how  42 Frank explained it to me.  43 MR. MACKENZIE:  44 Q  Frank Wilson?  45 A  Yes.  46 Q  So the boundary comes off the hill and goes north down  47 to the Babine River? 52  W. Wilson (for Plaintiffs)  Cross Exam by Mr. Mackenzie  1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  MR.  MR.  MR.  THE  MR.  A      Yes.     And that's the  only boundary I know.     I didn't  even  know it was  changed  back and forth like you  say.  Q      I'm sorry.     What about  south of  that?  GRANT:     South  of  that hill?  MACKENZIE:  Q      South  of  the hill.     Where does the boundary go?  A      It goes  right down to Xsi Matsi Ho'ot Ando'o.  A      That's west?  A  Which is north again.  under rivers and creeks,  starts at *Xsu Gwin Hligiinsxw.  River.  MR.  MR.  GRANT:  That's number 2  WITNESS:   Our boundary  That's the Babine  GRANT:  Number 1.  A  Xsimatsi Ho'ot Ando'o.  That's where it starts.  Q  That's Thomlinson Creek?  A  That's right.  Q  That's way up in the northwest.  I was wondering about  the eastern boundary.  A  And it follows up the centre of that.  Q  Centre of Thomlinson Creek?  A  That Babine River and up to that Tsoohl Da Geiss.  Q  To the hill?  A  To that hill.  Q  And then where does it go?  A  And then it goes south.  Q  It goes south towards —  Q  It crosses the —  GRANT:  Just a second.  Could you let him —  MACKENZIE:  Q  It goes south?  A  Across that river you are talking about.  Q  Nichyeskwa?  A      I can't know how to pronounce  past Hahl La Gyo'ot.  Q      Towards Mount Thoen?  A      Yes.  Q      Well,   that's  the area  that I am saying that's  changed  that.     And then towards  MR. GRANT  MR.  MR.  MR.  MR.  Do you know anything about that?  referring to maps that have been  this case?  three times.  And you are  delivered in  MACKENZIE:  Yes.  GRANT:  That the line on those maps has been changed?  MACKENZIE:   Yes.  GRANT:  Whether or not the boundary of Djogaslee's territory  has been changed?  MR. MACKENZIE:  That's a good point.  A  I didn't know. 53  W. Wilson (for Plaintiffs)  Cross Exam by Mr. Mackenzie  1  Q  2  3  A  4  Q  5  6  A  7  Q  8  A  9  Q  10  11  A  12  Q  13  14  A  15  16  17  18  19  Q  20  A  21  Q  22  A  23  24  25  26  27  Q  28  29  30  A  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  Q  38  39  A  40  Q  41  42  A  43  Q  44  A  45  Q  46  A  47  Q  That line on the map, we understood, represents your  eastern boundary there.  Yes.  But had you had anything to do with the Babine people  along that boundary?  No.  Do you know about Patrick's  trapline  in that area?  No.  Do you know anything about John West's  trapline  along  that area?  No.  You never ran into any of the Babine people trapping  down there?  No.  The only time — it is my uncle that run into  Babine person there one time.  He was poaching beaver  and he come over that Tsoohl Da Geiss into the swamp  where there is beavers and old Frank Wilson caught  him.  Yes.  You see, old Frank, he doesn't trap beavers —  Yes.  — too much.  But anyway, he went up there in the  spring, and there is these people from Babine and they  just left everything and took off.  They left  everything, tents, everything.  That's what he told  me.  That's what he said.     I  see.     Did you know that those  Babine people have registered traplines that go into  your  eastern part  of  your traditional territory there?  No,   I don't.     I didn't  know that.  (OFF  THE  RECORD)  (PROCEEDINGS ADJOURNED)  (PROCEEDINGS RECONVENED)  Before we had our break we were speaking about the  Gail Creek territory.  Do you recall that, Mr. Wilson?  Yes.  And you were — you described the eastern boundary of  that territory.  Do you recall that?  Yes.  And you said Frank Wilson once told you about that?  Yes.  Is he the person from whom you learned that boundary?  Yes.  And have you ever — have you seen that boundary on 54  W. Wilson (for Plaintiffs)  Cross Exam by Ms. Koenigsberg  1 the ground — you have been there along that boundary?  2 A  I have been there, but I didn't go right onto the  3 boundary, just in part.  4 Q  Which part did you go on?  5 A  Hahl La Gyo'ot.  6 Q  That's the southern part?  7 A  Yes.  And I went in there from there.  8 Q  As far as you are concerned as the head of the  9 Djogaslee that boundary has never changed?  10 A  Never changed.  11 MR. MACKENZIE:   No further questions.  12  13    CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS. KOENIGSBERG:  14  15 Q  Mr. Wilson, I want to ask you a few questions, and I'm  16 going to ask you about things — some things that are  17 going to sound like what Mr. Mackenzie asked you, but  18 I am a little confused in a couple of areas.  First I  19 want to ask you about the name Djogaslee.  Did I come  20 close to pronouncing it?  21 A  Yes, Djogaslee.  22 Q  And how it has been handed down.  Who held it over the  23 years to your knowledge?  You took the name from  24 William Wale?  25 A  Yes, that's right.  26 Q  And before that who held the name?  27 A  Willie Djogaslee.  28 Q  Willie Djogaslee?  29 A  Yes.  3 0 Q  Was Willie Djogaslee also known as Willie Wilson?  31 A      That's  right.  32 Q      And  Andrew Wilson never held the name Djogaslee?  33 A      No,  he  never did held that name.  3 4 Q      He held the name as  Ax Dii Ts'eex?  35 A      No.  36 Q      No.     What was — did he hold a name?  37 A I forgot. There is one feast that he hold a name for  3 8 a little while, but I don't know which name was that.  3 9 Q      Okay.     Can we —  40 A      I was  away at that time.     I think I was  in Houston  41 working when that happened,  and  I didn't  know what was  42 the feast was  about.  43 Q      Okay.     I would like to talk about the name,  and  I'll  44 attempt to say  Ax Dii Ts'eex.  45 A      Ax Dii Ts'eex.  46 Q      Ax Dii Ts'eex?  47 A      Ax Dii  Ts'eex. 55  W. Wilson (for Plaintiffs)  Cross Exam by Ms. Koenigsberg  1 Q Who has held that name — Bruce Johnson now has that  2 name?  3 A Now, yes.  4 Q Who did he that take that name —  5 A Ben Wale.  6 Q Ben Wale?  7 A Yes.  8 Q And do you know who held the name before Ben Wale?  9 A Frank Wilson.  10 Q Frank Wilson?  11 A Yes.  12 Q And do you know who held the name before Frank Wilson?  13 A Mary Clark.  14 Q And do you  know before Mary Clark?  15 A Charlie Wilson.     Charlie Ax Dii Ts'eex.     That's how  16 far  I know.  17 Q And in generations Mary Clark would have been  of  your  18 mother  or  grandmother's  generation?  19 A My grandmother's  sister,  my great grandmother's  sister  20 on my mother's  side.  21 Q Your mother's mother  or your mother's mother's mother?  22 A My mother's mother —  sister.  23 Q And Charlie  Ax Dii Ts'eex would have been your great  24 great —  25 A Great great uncle.  26 Q Great  great uncle?  27 A That's Mary Clark's  uncle.  2 8 Q All  right.     Now,  you mentioned that at one time Ax Dii  2 9 Ts'eex's  House was  too full?  30 A Yes.  31 Q And Djogaslee, who was a chief in the House of Ax Dii  32 Ts'eex —  33 A Yes.  3 4 Q — built his own House?  35 A Yes.  36 Q And we are talking about the Long House time?  37 A Long House time.  3 8 Q And there were no Long Houses in your lifetime?  3 9 A No, but I seen it when I was a little boy.  40 Q All right.  41 A The very end of the Long Houses.  42 Q Okay.  There were — was there an entire Long House  43 intact or part of a Long House intact that you saw as  44 a little boy?  45 A What do you mean intact?  46 Q Was it a whole Long House or just —  47 A Yes, it's a long building with an opening right in the 56  W. Wilson (for Plaintiffs)  Cross Exam by Ms. Koenigsberg  1 centre where they have fire.  2 Q  And that was in the Gail Creek area?  3 A  No.  No.  Sagat.  4 Q      Sagat.     And  there was  one House —  one Long House  5 standing at that time?  6 A      It wasn't  standing.     It was  on the ground.  7 Q       Oh,   I  see.  8 A  But it collapsed, and it was explained to me how  9 people live inside, how they divide it.  10 Q  Okay.  11 A  There is one family in that corner and one there, one  12 down the centre — I mean half ways down the outside  13 walls.  Sometimes there is eight families in that  14 House or six and sometimes more, and when that House  15 is too full, then you have to build another one.  16 That's when they move one chief out of this first  17 House.  18 MR. GRANT:  Just for the record, he was using the room for a  19 description, and he pointed to each of the corners of  20 this room, which are relatively long and narrow.  21 THE WITNESS:  And the chief place is right at the centre — the  22 back end of the centre.  We call it — I forgot what  23 we call them.  24 MS.   KOENIGSBERG:  25 Q  Is there a platform?  26 A  No.  27 Q  Is there a raised area?  2 8 A  No.  It's a ground.  There is no floor in those  2 9 buildings, but there is a certain place where a chief  30 and his family are right at the very back.  We have a  31 name for that.  I forgot it right now.  And then his  32 nephews next in line that corner.  33 Q  You are indicating, for the record, as you are facing  34 the back of this rectangular — long rectangular room?  3 5 A  The chief would be facing this way, and on his left  36 side is the Prince —  37 Q  Right.  3 8 A  — that is next in line to take his name, or the next  3 9 chief on his right.  40 Q  And what relationship would the person on the right  41 be?  42 A  They are brothers or nephew.  But he's a chief also,  43 and if something happened to the high chief, this  44 chief here would go in his place or put this young  45 Prince in, ask a chief to take this chief's name, and  46 when this House was too full they move this chief out.  47 I was on the right. 57  W.   Wilson   (for  Plaintiffs)  Cross Exam by Ms.   Koenigsberg  1 MR.   GRANT:     The chief  that's  on the high chiaf's  right?  2 THE WITNESS:     Yes.     I was  on the  right.  3 MS.   KOENIGSBERG:  4 Q      When you say   "I",   do you mean Djogaslee?  5 A      Djogaslee.     That's my name.     And they all  get together  6 and build this  other House  for Djogaslee.  7 Q       Right.  8 A  So he sits right in — by where those gentlemen  9 sitting  now.  10 Q      You are pointing to sort of  the centre  of  the room?  11 MR.   GRANT:     Pointing to Mr.   Macaulay who just came in and  sat in  12 the chief's  position.  13 THE WITNESS:     So Djogaslee moved in his new place,   so he has —  14 oh,   and  — excuse me for a minute.     Ax  Weegasxw move  15 into my place after  I moved out.  16 MR.   GRANT:      That   is  —  17 THE WITNESS:   To this  knew building.     That's  the  other chief.  18 MS.   KOENIGSBERG:  19 Q      And why would he move into the place  of  Djogaslee?  20 A      Because  I moved.     And he was down the centre outside  21 wall,   left-hand side wall,   and this Prince was  still  22 sitting there.     They didn't do nothing to him.  23 MR.   GRANT:     Indicating the Prince  to the left of  the  chief.  24 THE WITNESS:       They move  this  other  chief  to my place,   and  I  25 have a new House.     So they selected a  Prince  for me,  26 the family,   they move him into my left.  27 MS.   KOENIGSBERG:  28 Q  In the separate House of Djogaslee?  2 9        A  Yes.  And this is — I was pretty young at them days.  3 0 I was over a thousand — that was over a thousand  31 years ago.  32 Q  You were just a baby?  33 A  Just a baby.  And there was — the family was growing  3 4 and my House is started to full up again, so what they  3 5 did, they move this chief again from the main House.  36 MR. GRANT:  Ax Dii Ts'eex House?  37 THE WITNESS:  Which is Ax Dii Ts'eex's House.  So they move him  3 8 out and build another house.  3 9 MR. GRANT:  Indicating the chief on the right-hand side.  40 THE WITNESS:  So three Houses.  That's how we got three Houses.  41 MR. KOENIGSBERG:  42 Q  And what was the name of the second chief that was  43 moved out of the House, Ax Dii Ts'eex, to build a  44 separate House?  45 A  Ax Weegasxw.  46 Q  Ax Weegasxw?  47 A  Yes.  So — 58  W. Wilson (for Plaintiffs)  Cross Exam by Ms. Koenigsberg  1 Q  Go ahead.  2 A  And then from then on people start to spread out and  3 those Long Houses start to go away.  They start to  4 disappear.  And I don't know what reason, but they  5 start to disappear and them people start spreading  6 out, so —  7 Q  All right.  Now, when —  8 A  My family moved into Gitanmaax back — originally we  9 come from Gitanmaax — not Gitanmaax.  Where the  10 *T'emlaxamit, I don't know how many thousands of years  11 ago, and they spread out from there.  And then there  12 is another settlement at Missing Point they call now.  13 That's across from Xsan.  And then from there the  14 Gitanmaax moved across where Xsan is now.  Then — but  15 Ax Weegasxw, he moved out when they split up at the  16 Missing Point.  It would be years and years ago.  17 That's how we started each settlement at Sagat.  There  18 is a village there, an old —  19 Q  And where at Sagat?  20 A  Right where that boundary is now at — they call  21 reserve.  I will tell you the creek.  22 Q  Yes, the creek would help.  23 A  The creek name runs through that village, Xsi Gwatsa  24 Uus.  25 A  I don't know if it's on the map.  26 MR. GRANT:  Just a moment.  It's number 5 on page 6 under creeks  27 on Exhibit 6 02.  2 8   MS. KOENIGSBERG:  Does it have an English name?  29 MR. GRANT:  It's unnamed on government maps.  30 MS. KOENIGSBERG:  It's the creek that's at the village site,  31 which I think he earlier described is where the  32 reserve.  33 MS. KOENIGSBERG:  34 Q  If we just deal for the moment with the Long Houses,  3 5 the remnants of which you saw as a small boy in the  36 Sagat territory.  Do you know — there were three Long  37 Houses, the three that we have talked about —  3 8 A  Yes.  3 9 Q  — in that location?  And you saw the remnants of one  40 of those Long Houses when you were a boy?  41 A  One left when I was a real little boy.  42 Q  And that would have been in what, the early thirties?  43 A  Yes, thirties.  44 Q  And where did — and the Houses were separate at that  45 time in the early thirties?  46 A  Already separate, yes.  They were all spread out.  47 Q  Okay.  And were there separate territories for each of 59  W.   Wilson   (for  Plaintiffs)  Cross Exam by Ms.   Koenigsberg  1  2  3  A  4  Q  5  6  A  7  Q  8  9  A  10  Q  11  12  A  13  Q  14  15  A  16  Q  17  18  19  A  20  21  Q  22  A  23  24  Q  25  A  26  Q  27  28  29  30  A  31  32  33  Q  34  35  A  36  Q  37  38  39  40  A  41  42  43  Q  44  A  45  Q  46  47  those  three Houses  in the 19 — early 1930's when you  were a little boy?  Yes,   the whole three,   yes.  And you talked about the holder  of the name  Ax Dii  Ts'eex having the Gail  Creek territory?  Uh-huh.  In the early thirties that would have been Frank  Wilson?  Frank Wilson,   yes.  And you talked about then Willie took the  north  territory.     Did you mean the Irving Creek territory?  Yes.  Okay.     And when you  said  Willie,   you were referring to  Willie Djogaslee  or Willie Wilson?  Willie Wilson.  And before Willie Wilson took that territory were  any  members   of  the House  of  Djogaslee using the  Irving  Creek territory?  No,   not  before he took it,   no.     Not before it was  given to him.  And who gave it to him?  The late Daniel  Skawil,   Skiik'm lax ha,   Indian name,  chief  name.  Now,  did you  know  or know  of Joe Danes?  I know Joe Danes,  yes.  And were you aware that he held  or was  registered as  the head man  of a trapline which covered the majority  of  the  Irving Creek,   Djogaslee territory in the  1930's?  I know he hold a registered on the opposite  side   of  Irving Creek,   Xsi Laadamus.     I wasn't aware that he  covered the area.  Were you aware  that there was a  trapline registered to  his name?  Whose  name?  Joe Danes.     He was  the head man and Willie Wilson,   and  that would be Willie Djogaslee and William Wale at  different times were both registered on that trapline  with Joe Danes.     Did you know about that?  Well,   that's  the mistake  the D.I.A.  made when they  drew out a map.     They  overlap Gyolugyet's  territory.  That's Joe Danes at the time.  Yes.     Joe Danes held the name Gyolugyet?  Yes.  But were you aware  that at one time Joe Danes was  the  head man on a registered trapline that covered the  territory now  shown as belonging to Gyolugyet and 60  W. Wilson (for Plaintiffs)  Cross Exam by Ms. Koenigsberg  1 Djogaslee, with members of the House of Djogaslee and  2 in fact the chief, hereditary chief of Djogaslee as  3 registered on the trapline with Joe Danes?  4 A  Oh, I didn't know that.  5 Q  Okay.  Did you hear about the break-up, if I can put  6 it that way, of the registered trapline of Joe Danes?  7 A  Break-up?  8 Q  Well, at one time a very large area was registered  9 under the name of Joe Danes, and in the 1940's and  10 into the 1950's that trapline was broken up and one  11 part of it is now the registered trapline that you  12 hold that you took from William Wale.  Did you know  13 that that — that the registered trapline that you now  14 hold, which was held by William Wale, was part of the  15 Joe Danes' trapline in the thirties?  16 MR. GRANT:  Registered trapline?  17 MS. KOENIGSBERG:  18 Q  Registered trapline.  19 A  No, I didn't know that.  All I know is like I  20 explained to Mr. Mackenzie, that our boundaries — and  21 it's always been held by my family, Djogaslee, and —  22 but on the D.I.A. maps, when they issued them out, it  23 overlaps another territory, but we don't — what they  24 do in feast hall they explain.  There is a mistake  25 made by D.I. A. or some government when they drew out  26 maps.  Some maps they drew out a straight line, and  27 Indian boundaries are territories, they are not  28 straight.  You never see a straight line.  It follows  29 a creek or the mountain peaks, and that's where the  3 0 conflict on the two parties starts sometimes.  31 Q  Okay.  32 A  But they straighten out in feast hall.  If my trapline  33 overrun by Gyolugyet, like you say, now I'll have to  3 4 put up a feast and call all the witnesses on eight  35 reserves, eight villages, and explain to them I want  36 to straighten this out.  37 Q  Okay.  Were you aware that Mary McKenzie has a  3 8 registered trapline which overlaps into the territory  3 9 of Djogaslee?  40 A  After Joe Danes died?  41 Q  Yes.  42 A  Mary McKenzie took over that name.  43 Q  Yes.  44 A  And like I say, same thing, it's the D.I. A. map.  45 Q  Yes.  46 A  Come from D.I.A..  And I think the map that Joe Danes  47 got is exactly the same as Mary McKenzie's. 61  W. Wilson (for Plaintiffs)  Cross Exam by Ms. Koenigsberg  1 Q  Were you aware that there is a registered trapline in  2 the name of Mary McKenzie that covers a part of  3 Djogaslee's Irving Creek territory?  4 A  Yes.  5 Q  Have you had discussions with Mary MacKenzie about  6 that?  7 A  Not with Mary, no.  8 Q  Now, Mr. Mackenzie discussed with you briefly the  9 trapline description on the application for  10 registration of a trapline of you, Walter Wilson, and  11 that trapline we know came from — was the taking over  12 of the William Wale trapline, correct?  13 A  Yes.  14 MR.   GRANT:     Well,   he  said that he didn't know about  that.  15 MS.   KOENIGSBERG:      I   know.  16 MR.   GRANT:     You are  stating that,   but he doesn't know  that.  17 MS. KOENIGSBERG:  18 Q  You do know that the trapline that you now hold where  19 you are the registered holder was the William Wale  20 trapline?  21 MR.   GRANT:     I'm sorry?  22 MS.   KOENIGSBERG:  23 Q       Correct?  24 A       Yes.  25 Q  And you have explained that your understanding is that  26 to the extent that the description on the application  27 covers part of Gyolugyet's territory?  2 8         A  Yes.  2 9        Q  That was a mistake made by D.I.A.?  30 A  D.I.A.  31 Q  I would like to show you a map, which comes from the  32 William Wale trapline file, which was number 45 47 on  33 the A.G. Canada list, and just ask you if you have  3 4 ever seen that map.  3 5 MR. GRANT:  Let me take a look at that first.  36 THE WITNESS:   You see, right on there again it shows straight  37 lines, like I say.  3 8 MR. GRANT:  The witness is referring to the map that you  3 9 tendered and produced to him.  40 MS.   KOENIGSBERG:  41 Q       And my question just  is have you ever  seen that map?  42 A      Not this map,   no.  43 Q      Did you have a map when you —  44 A  Yes.  45 Q  Just let me finish the question.  46 A  It's different than this one.  47 Q  Have you a map which shows the registered trapline 62  W. Wilson (for Plaintiffs)  Cross Exam by Ms. Koenigsberg  1 which is held in your name now?  2 A  William Wales before, yes.  3 Q  And you have that at home?  4 A  Yes, I have it.  5 Q  I wonder if you could produce it to your counsel and  6 we could have that?  7 A  Uh-huh.  8 (ADDITIONAL   INFORMATION   REQUESTED)  9 Q  And that map is different from the map in front of  10 you?  11 A  It's altogether different, yes.  This is straight  12 line.  You see, there is so many maps been given out  13 to the trappers and the people that own the area, you  14 know.  They don't go by our traditional boundaries,  15 the maps that are given out.  16 Q  The map that you have, was it — how did it come into  17 being? Who drew the map that you have?  18 A  D.I.A., I guess.  I don't know who drew it, but it is  19 exactly the same as William Wale.  20 Q  From whom did you receive the map that you have at  21 home?  22 A  I applied for it.  I think my application is there.  23 Q  Okay.  And the map that you have —  24 MR. GRANT:  You mean who did he receive the document from?  25 MS. KOENIGSBERG:  Yes.  I'll clarify.  26 Q  The map that you have, did it accompany what's now —  27 MR. GRANT:  Exhibit 4.  2 8 MS. KOENIGSBERG:  2 9 Q  — Exhibit 4 on your examination?  30 A  What's that mean?  31 Q  Did it come with you?  32 A  When I send in my application?  33 MR. GRANT:  She is asking you if the map came with this  3 4 document.  3 5 THE WITNESS:  The map I got, this document come with the map.  36 MS. KOENIGSBERG:   Okay.  37 MR. GRANT:  I just think you should mark this document as an  3 8 exhibit for identification, since he's referred to it  3 9 in his answers.  40 MS. KOENIGSBERG:  I will.  41 Q  The map that you have described that you have and that  42 you received along with your application to register  43 the trapline, is it different from another map that  44 you told Mr. Mackenzie about relating to William  45 Wale's trapline application?  46 A  Different than this one?  47 Q  No.  Do you have two maps at home? 63  W. Wilson (for Plaintiffs)  Cross Exam by Ms. Koenigsberg  1 A  Just the one.  2 Q  Just the one.  And is it the same map that you told  3 Mr. Mackenzie about yesterday?  4 A  It's the same map.  The figures are on here.  5 Q  Okay.  And you had told Mr. Mackenzie that you would  6 try and bring it.  7 A  I forgot all about it.  I'm sorry.  I'll probably have  8 to make one up.  9 Q  Don't do that.  10 MR. GRANT:  Of course Mr. Wilson got home late last night, and  11 due to our earlier schedule, he had to get up very  12 early this morning and drive down here, and I didn't  13 get a chance to remind him when we were both in  14 Hazelton yesterday.  15 MS. KOENIGSBERG:   Those are all the questions I have, subject  16 to the production of the map that you have told us  17 about.  I would like to mark as exhibits — the next  18 exhibit the map I produced out of the Walter — I'm  19 sorry, out of the William Wale trapline application,  20 our number 4547.  21 MR. GRANT:  Well, I think it should be marked as an Exhibit A  22 for Identification, because the witness couldn't  23 identify it.  He just commented on it.  He said he had  24 never seen it before.  25 MS. KOENIGSBERG:  I have no objection to that, except I wonder  26 if it can just be marked as an exhibit, as being the  27 map that we were discussing.  It can't go any further  28 than being the map that we discussed.  2 9 MR. GRANT:  Out of an abundance of caution, Exhibit A for  30 Identification.  31 MS. KOENIGSBERG:  Okay.  32  33 (EXHIBIT NO. A FOR IDENTIFICATION - WILLIAM  3 4 WALE TRAPLINE APPLICATION MAP - DOCUMENT NO.  35 4547)  36  37 MS.   KOENIGSBERG:     I don't know what that's  going to do to our  38 schedule,   but  I would like to see that map,  and after  3 9 I have had an opportunity  to look at it,  be  at liberty  40 to ask any questions which may arise out  of  it.  41 MR.   GRANT:     That may be able to be done  through  some sort  of  42 interrogatory or  something else.     I don't think  I want  43 to require Mr.   Wilson to stay around,   that is  to bind  44 him to be at home that  I can call him in this week,  45 especially since  it's  going to disrupt  other  46 witnesses.     We'll do our best to get it to you,  and  47 then you  can look at it and comment.     It may be  that 64  W. Wilson (for Plaintiffs)  Exam by Mr. Grant  1 we can come to an agreement that that map can be  2 marked as an exhibit subsequently.  That might be all  3 that either Defence Counsel are concerned about.  4 So in other words, I guess we should cross that  5 bridge when we come to it.  But I want Mr. Wilson  6 effectively completed.  You got your proviso on, and I  7 am certainly not going to require him to attend in  8 Vancouver for that.  Just play it by ear.  9 MS. KOENIGSBERG:  I am prepared to be flexible about the basis  10 upon which I have a right to continue the examination,  11 but I will tell you that a substantial part of my  12 cross-examination, which is brief in any event,  13 revolves around the Joe Danes' trapline and the many  14 maps that we have, and so his having another map with  15 that application is of some importance to my being  16 able to assimilate into the rest of the information  17 that I have, so I may require that I be able to ask  18 him further questions.  I may not, but it's not just a  19 minor matter to my cross-examination.  20 MR. GRANT:  The only thing is that you have the description,  21 Exhibit 4, the description of the application for  22 registration of a trapline of Mr. Wilson.  I would  23 assume, and I am almost positive, given the past  24 practice, that if he has a map that came with this,  25 that a copy of that map would be in the Walter Wilson  26 trapline file of the province or in the file referred  27 to as 617T00 9.  You have indicated to me yesterday as  28 a courtesy, and I appreciate it, that other documents,  2 9 and of course all free to examine on the Joe Danes'  30 file, that the only map that you may worry about is  31 this one that he has.  32 MS. KOENIGSBERG:  That's true.  But it being a piece of the  33 puzzle I haven't seen, it may alter considerably my  3 4 conclusions about what's in the Joe Danes' file.  3 5 That's all I am saying to you.  36 MR. GRANT:  Have you examined the provincial document?  37 MS. KOENIGSBERG:  Yes, I have, and I believe it has been  3 8 produced to you.  There is no map.  3 9   MR. GRANT:  Okay.  40  41    EXAMINATION BY MR. GRANT:  42  43 Q  I got a few questions to ask you on redirect.  44 A  You do?  45 Q  Yes.  I would like to show you a sketch that I had  46 drawn as you were describing the seating or the  47 placement of the chiefs in the feast hall, and you 65  W.   Wilson   (for  Plaintiffs)  Exam by Mr.   Grant  1 gave a very  extensive description of  how  Ax Di  2 Ts'eex's House was  before Djogaslee moved out?  3 A      Uh-huh.  4 Q  And in order that the judge does not scratch his head  5 after reading that description, I would like to mark  6 this as an exhibit — I would like to show it to you  7 and mark it as an exhibit.  8 A  Uh-huh.  9 MR.   MACKENZIE:   The location of  the house  is at Sagat?  10 MR.   GRANT:     Yes.     That's what he  gave — he  gave evidence  of  11 that.  12 MR.   MACKENZIE:  That's the —  on this diagram the name here is  13 the village  name  that's on the affidavit.  14 MR.   GRANT:     Let's  see.     It's the name of  the creek number 5,  15 which he  gave evidence  of goes  through the village  of  16 Sagat,   and  I  think what  I will do is put  in brackets  17 after  that Sagat.  18 Q      Can you  just  look at that and tell me if  that  shows  19 how the  seating was in Ax Dii Ts'eex's  House prior —  20 before Djogaslee moved  out.     Is  that correct?  21 A      That's  correct.  22  23 (EXHIBIT  NO.   7   -   SKETCH   OF  SEATING   OF   AX  DII  24 TS'EEX'S  HOUSE)  25  26 (OFF THE RECORD)  27  2 8 Q  Okay.  You were asked by both Mr. Mackenzie yesterday  29 and Ms. Koenigsberg today about the history of the  3 0 Djogaslee, Ax Dii Ts'eex relationship and their  31 Houses.  I have understood your evidence that what you  3 2 have described, that these people moved into three  33 different Houses, and in that description I understood  3 4 you to actually to be describing physical buildings,  35 which in Gitksan would be called Wilp, is that right?  36 A  Yes.  37 Q  Now, as you know in this Court case you are a named  38 plaintiff representing the members of the House of  3 9 Djogaslee, and in this sense House or Wilp is used not  40 as a physical building but as a collection of people.  41 You understand that distinction?  42 A       Yes.  43 Q      Today  is there —  I am asking this question relating  44 to the collection  of people.     Is there one House which  45 includes  Ax Dii  Ts'eex and Djogaslee,   or  is there two  46 separate Houses as a  collection  of people?  47 A      It's  only  one House. 66  W. Wilson (for Plaintiffs)  Exam by Mr. Grant  1 Q  At the time that they separated into these three  2 buildings, were they considered as one House or as two  3 Houses?  4 A  One House.  Even though they have three Houses after  5 that, but they still considered one House, because  6 there is only one House that has power, and there is  7 three high chiefs in that one House.  8 Q  Now, you were asked about Exhibit 5.  You were shown  9 Exhibit 5, which was the Band Council Resolution,  10 together with the statement of some of the chiefs,  11 Thomas Danes, yourself, Ben McKenzie and Steve  12 Robinson, about a trapline registration for Bruce  13 Johnson.  In here it says:  14  15 "Whereas Ax Dii Ts'eex is from and under  16 Gyedum Kuldo's House ...  17  18 MR. MACKENZIE: Sorry, it doesn't say that Mr. Grant.  19 MR. GRANT:  Did I misstate it?  20 MR. MACKENZIE: It says Gyetem Muldo.  21 MR. GRANT:  I'm sorry, okay.  I'll rephrase it.  And we can have  22 a copy for Madam Reporter:  23  24 "Whereas Ax Dii Ts'eex is from and under  25 Gyetem Muldo (Thomas Danes House of Gitanmaax  26 village)"  27  2 8 You see that statement there?  2 9 A      Uh-huh.  3 0 Q      Do you know what chief's name Thomas Danes  held  or  31 holds?  3 2 A      Gyetem Muldo.  33 Q       Is  Ax Dii  Ts'eex in the House  of     Gyedum Kuldo?  34 A  No.  3 5 Q  Is that statement correct or incorrect?  36 A  Incorrect, because I — I think what they trying to  37 say there is — you see, Gyetem Muldo is the head  3 8 chief of the village.  3 9 Q  Of which village?  40 A  Gitanmaax.  Maybe that's what they are trying to say.  41 Q  Okay.  And what clan is Gyedum Kuldo?  42 A  Lax Seel.  43 Q  And you are?  44 A  I'm a Lax Seel too.  45 Q  Okay.  46 A  All together different House.  47 Q  Now, in answering questions of that you said, in 67  W. Wilson (for Plaintiffs)  Exam by Mr. Grant  1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  answer to Bruce Johnson:  "He is in our family, our family tree."  Now, I am going to show you the first page of a  genealogy entitled Wilp, Djogaslee, Lax Seel, Village  Gitanmaax, January 28, 1988.  Have you seen that  document before?  A  No.  Q  Did you review that document —  A  Oh.  Oh, this the document you talking about?  Q  Yes, this piece of paper.  A  Yes.  Q  Now, is that the family tree that you are referring  to?  A  Yes, that's the family tree.  Q  And you informed me of certain corrections which I put  on the record at the beginning of your  cross-examination with respect to that family tree?  A  Yes.  Yes.  Q  And subject to those corrections this represents your  family tree?  A  Yes.  MR. GRANT  Okay.  I would ask that that be marked as the next  exhibit.  MR. MACKENZIE: I object to that.  MR. GRANT:  Okay, marked for identification.  MR. MACKENZIE: I reserve the right to ask questions arising out  of that genealogy.  MR. GRANT:  Well, it was delivered to you.  (EXHIBIT B FOR IDENTIFICATION - GENEALOGY  DATED JANUARY 28, 1988)  MR. GRANT:  This genealogy was delivered to both defendants in  advance of the cross-examination, and corrections to  it were made on the record the beginning of when  cross-examination started.  Q  When you sit — just to understand the relationship  between you and Ax Dii Ts'eex, when you sit in the  feast hall where does Ax Dii Ts'eex sit in relation to  you?  A  He sits on my right.  Q  At the same table?  A  At the seat now they have — I have to sit on the  left.  Q  Yes. 68  W.   Wilson   (for  Plaintiffs)  Exam by Mr.   Grant  1 A      Because  Gyetem Muldo sits  in the centre and  Ax Dii  2 Ts'eex is on his  right.  3 Q      And then you sit beside?  4 A      Ax Dii Ts'eex —  not Ax Dii  Ts'eex,   Gyetem Muldo.  5 Q      You sit beside  Gyetem Muldo?  6 A      Yes,  because he's  the head chief  of  the village,  7 Gyetem Muldo.  8 Q       Of  the frog clan?  9 A      Of  the frog clan.     And  I'm on his left as a  spokesman  10 for him,  and Ax Dii Ts'eex is on his right.     Doesn't  11 matter what feast  or what village,   they seated the  12 same way,   all  eight reserves.  13 Q      That's  the seven villages where the chiefs  are  14 plaintiffs in this action plus Kitwancool?  15 A      Uh-huh.     Yes.  16 Q  Okay.  You were shown Exhibit 4 and asked to identify  17 your signature on it, which you did, and then you  18 indicated that it was — you commented on this  19 description.  Now, is that description — I believe  20 you said that that description was wrong.  21 A  Well, that's the description D.I.A. make out in those  22 old maps, and that's the map I got — I have, I mean,  23 at home.  24 Q  And is that — can you explain how that description is  25 wrong?  26 A      It  overlaps Gyolugyet's  territory.     That's why  I  say  27 it a mistake.  2 8 Q  Okay.  You described how your uncle came back after  29 trapping in the territory up this — up on the Nass.  3 0 Did your uncle trap on that portion of this registered  31 trapline which was in Gyolugyet's territory?  32 A  He never did say that to me.  He never did tell me  33 that.  3 4   MS. KOENIGSBERG:  Mr. Grant, that area was covered and he gave  35 all the answers already.  36 MR. GRANT:  Yes, of course the question of him —  37 MS. KOENIGSBERG:  He actually gave exactly that evidence the  3 8 first time at the beginning of Mr. Mackenzie's  3 9 evidence.  40 MR.   GRANT:     That was raised and wasn't raised on the affidavit.  41 MS.   KOENIGSBERG:     I understand that,  but  I would  say the  42 function of  re-examination is  clarification and not  43 repetition of  the evidence that's  already been given,  44 just because  it was  given in cross.  45 MR.  GRANT:     I was not intending to repeat it,   so no motivation  46 of  course.  47 Q      Now,   this morning you were asked about whether you 69  W. Wilson (for Plaintiffs)  Exam by Mr. Grant  1 abide by the opening times and closing times of  2 Fisheries on the Skeena, and you said that you did,  3 that is when Fisheries sets a closing on the Skeena  4 that you abide by it.  Why? Why do you comply with  5 that?  6 A  Well, I respect the what you call it to — I think all  7 high chiefs are like that.  But we don't agree with  8 the permits.  9 Q  Okay.  You say — what do you respect? You say you  10 respected.  11 A  Well, to — how do you say when you are trying to  12 control the fish runs and all that?  13 Q  Conservation?  14 A  Conservation, yes.  And high chiefs, even before in  15 the olden days they are all like that.  When a certain  16 run comes, then they put their traps out.  Like the  17 first run of sockeye no one — very few that put out  18 their traps, because that's a run that goes up Bear  19 Lake through Babine, and we call it Hoonim Gitgwoyim,  20 we call that run — those schools of fish that went up  21 the very first run.  And none of the high chiefs put  22 out their traps when that run coming through.  If they  23 do, they only leave it in for maybe a few minutes,  24 just to get enough food for today or for tomorrow.  25 Nowadays what Fishery is doing is they issuing  26 out permits.  And they don't call the high chiefs to  27 ask them who shall we give a permit.  They just hand  2 8 it out.  And young outsiders, these people go in and  29 catch these fish.  And they are red like these chairs  3 0 here, the first run.  We don't use that, because they  31 are going up to spawn.  That's why they change  32 colours.  And they have a different skin on them.  33 They are thick.  So they don't get hurt or damaged on  3 4 the way up to Bear Lake or Babine.  But nowadays  35 everybody is catching fish left and right, and they  36 don't know about these things.  Even the Fisheries  37 don't know about them.  And that's why high chiefs  3 8 against the permit, issuing permit out for fishing,  39 for food in our areas, because the young people abused  40 it, Indians and non-Indians, they are really abusing  41 it now.  And we trying to talk to the Fisheries.  We  42 want control.  The high chiefs want control again.  43 We select — when high chiefs look after the fishing  44 grounds, we select the person to go out and catch fish  45 for his family.  That's out of my House.  And you have  46 to come to me and ask me, can I go fish for food, and  47 high chief says yes, and he'll show you. 70  W. Wilson (for Plaintiffs)  Exam by Mr. Grant  1 We have lots of fishing holes.  Like my House, Ax  2 Dii Ts'eex House, we have around maybe 50 places where  3 we could fish, and there is certain times a year where  4 he could use certain holes.  You don't use it year  5 round or two months at a time, because river goes up  6 and down, and when there is a certain run comes, like  7 the pink salmon, there is a certain place where you  8 could go so you wouldn't catch these fish, because we  9 don't use them.  But since the Fishery started giving  10 out permits, licences, people go out and set a net.  11 They catch all these pink salmon and they don't use  12 them, they just left on shore, rot, and that's not  13 right.  High chief say it's not right what they are  14 doing.  15 What  can we do when Fisheries do that,   issuing  out  16 permits to everyone.     As  long as you have dark skin  17 and you ask for  a permit,   they will write  it  out.  18 They won't even ask you where you come from or what  19 House you belong to.     That's what the high  chiefs  20 don't want.  21 And the Fisheries — we have,   I don't know how many  22 meetings with them,  and  I stood up every time and  I  23 told them,   I  said do away with those permits,   give the  24 control  back to the high chiefs,   then you'll  see  the  25 difference again,   or  if  fish in stock are depleting  26 really bad on account  of  that,  and they don't want to  27 listen.     And like  I say,   I am still  against the  28 permits,  and  I explained to a lot  of people  on the  2 9 Fisheries  side what's  happening.  30 That's why we want our bylaws to be in power  before  31 we — before it's too late.     All the fish  stock is  32 going to go.     Not too far down the line,   if we  don't  33 smarten up,   the Fisheries  smarten up,   then we'll do  3 4 something.     We can't control it now,  because high  35 chief  ask a  certain person,   "What you doing in my  36 fishing hole?     You have  no rights there",  and  this  37 person pulls  out his wallet and give me a permit.  3 8 "Fishery give me a permit to fish any place on the  3 9 river."     High chief got nothing to say.     All  he has  to  40 say is  stay out  of my fishing hole,  but this person  41 goes down 10  feet away  from that hole,   he  sets  his  42 net.     And that's what we don't like.  43 I'm sorry to say this.     Take me a little too long,   I  44 guess,  but  I like to get it out  of my mind, what the  45 Fishery doing to us.     If  I go out and set net  for my  46 own use,   just a few hours  they come and  grab me,   put  47 me in  jail.     Break the  law,   no licence they  say,   yet 71  W. Wilson (for Plaintiffs)  Exam by Mr. Grant  1 it's my fishing hole, traditional.  But these other  2 poachers, they don't do that to them.  They let them  3 go because they give them permits.  And I explained  4 that to them — there is six of them come to our  5 meeting one time.  I ask them why they don't pinch the  6 people that really breaking the law, setting nets and  7 selling fish, Indians and non-Indians, and the honest  8 chief goes out there and catch his own food, they  9 throw him in jail, finally take his net away.  I don't  10 think that's right.  11 Q  I just want to clarify one thing on Exhibit 3, a  12 paragraph which was tendered by Mr. Mackenzie to you.  13 And this was an affidavit that you — that is not  14 listed but was — your signature was identified by  15 you.  You stated in paragraph 5, and I quote:  16  17 "As informed by a second fishery officer, Mr.  18 Hoyer, that if I went to Tribal Council, then  19 Tribal Council will make it political."  20  21 Was that statement in quotes made by you or by Mr.  22 Hoyer?  23 A  By Mr. Hoyer.  24 Q  And it's — and is he the conservation officer?  25 A  At the time, yes.  26 Q  At that time.  You described this morning in detail  27 how your uncle — your great uncle Willie Wilson,  2 8 Willie Djogaslee, when he came back he would talk to  29 you about the boundaries of your territory and about  3 0 the histories.  How many times would he have told you  31 about the boundaries of the northern territory of  32 Djogaslee?  33 A  Oh, quite a few times.  3 4 Q  You have described this morning how that territory —  35 again I am talking about the Xsi Luu Biiyoosxwit  36 territory was transferred from Daniel Skawil to  37 Djogaslee.  38 A  Willie Djogaslee.  3 9 Q      To Willie Djogaslee.     What was Daniel  Skawil's  chief's  40 name?  41 A      Skiik'm lax ha.  42 Q      Okay.     Before that territory —  from what your uncle  43 Willie Djogaslee taught you,   before that territory was  44 transferred to Willie Djogaslee,  was  it Gitksan  45 territory?  46 MS.   KOENIGSBERG:     That doesn't arise out  of  the  47 cross-examination.     You are now opening up a new area, 72  W. Wilson (for Plaintiffs)  Exam by Mr. Grant  1 Mr.   Grant.  2 MR.  GRANT:     The  objection is  noted.  3 MR.  MACKENZIE:   I  object to that question.  4 THE WITNESS:     What's  that you  say again?  5 MR.   GRANT:  6 Q  Before the territory was transferred to Willie  7 Djogaslee, was it Gitksan territory?  8 A  It was.  9 MR.   MACKENZIE:   How does he know?  10 THE WITNESS:     Daniel   Skawil   is a  Gitksan.  11 MR.   MACKENZIE:   Yes.  12 THE WITNESS:  He's the one that transfered that to Willie  13 Djogaslee.  14 MR.   GRANT:     Okay.  15 Q  And what clan — you described Daniel Skawil is  16 Skiik'm lax ha, what clan is Skiik'm lax ha?  17 A  Frog clan.  18 Q      You described at the time of  that transfer,  when you  19 were describing Daniel Skawil's decision to transfer  20 that territory,   you said the chief  has to get the  clan  21 to agree to transfer.     When you say clan, were you  22 referring to all  of  the frogs  or those people in  23 Skiik'm lax ha's House?  24 A      No,   in Skiik'm lax ha's House,   the family  in that  25 House.  26 Q  You described to Mr. MacKenzie when he was giving you  27 those names that are on, I believe, Exhibit 6, you  2 8 described about the An Tsok where the trappers went to  29 get fish?  30 A  Uh-huh.  31 Q      Whose  territory was that An Tsok in?  32 A      Well,   it's on —  according to the Gyolugyet's maps.  33 It covers that An Tsok,   but  it shouldn't be.     An Tsok,  34 it's  a free area for everyone.  3 5 Q      Okay.     So it was a  common area?  36 A      Common area.  37 Q      What — whose  territory surrounded the An Tsok?  38 A      Gyolugyet,   Albert Tait is  there.     What's his   Indian  3 9 name?  40 Q       Delga Muukw?  41 A      Delga muukw.  42 MR.  MACKENZIE:   No more leading the witness,   please,  Mr.   Grant.  43 You are answering the witness's questions.  44 MR.   GRANT:     Well,   he forgot who Albert Tait's name was.  45 MR.  MACKENZIE:   Well,  that's  significant,  isn't it?  46 MR.   GRANT:     It's  on the record that he  forgot  it,  Mr.   Mackenzie.  47 Albert Tait is the first named plaintiff  or was  the 73  W. Wilson (for Plaintiffs)  Re-exam by Mr. Mackenzie  1 first named plaintiff until his death.  2 Q  Were you asked about Sam Jones? Do you know who Sam  3 Jones' mother was?  4 A  No, I don't.  5 Q  You were asked about the Gail Creek territory by Mr.  6 Mackenzie.  You know — and you were asked about Ben  7 McKenzie.  What chief's name does Ben McKenzie hold?  8 A  Luutkudziiwas.  9 Q  And have you ever heard Ben McKenzie describe the  10 Luutkudziiwas territory?  11 A  No, I never did.  12 Q  Okay.  Thank you, Mr. Wilson.  Those are my questions.  13 Just a moment.  Thank you, Mr. Wilson.  Those are my  14 questions.  15 MR.   MACKENZIE:   I have two questions  arising  out  of  that  16 re-examination.  17  18 RE-CROSS  EXAMINATION  BY MR.   MACKENZIE:  19  20 Q       And the  first  one was you mentioned Gyolugyet's maps.  21 Which maps were you speaking about,   Mr.  Wilson?  22 A      Well,   she asked me about Gyolugyet's maps,   and I —  23 there is  only one map,   I guess,   from Gyolugyet's  24 trapping area.  25 MR. GRANT:  That was the Joe Danes.  26 THE WITNESS:  Joe Danes had it the very beginning and then Mary  27 McKenzie after that.  2 8 MR. MACKENZIE:  2 9        Q  Is that what you meant when you said Gyolugyet's maps?  30 A  Yes.  31 Q  And you said those covered the free territory at An  32 Tsok?  33 MR. GRANT:  He's already given that answer.  I object that  3 4 question.  3 5 MR. MACKENZIE: Your objection is recorded.  36 THE INTERPRETER:  What was that last word?  37 MR. MACKENZIE:  An Tsok.  3 8        Q  And you spoke at length about the high chief's  3 9 concerns about fishing on the Skeena?  40 MR. GRANT:  Just a moment.  You raised all of that by tendering  41 this Exhibit 3 which you never asked a single question  42 about, and by asking him this morning about abiding by  43 the fishing permits, that is nothing knew that has  44 arisen.  He has given answers in explanation.  I asked  45 him one question out of that and he explained why.  46 You could easily have asked him why he abided by the  47 regulations and you didn't. 74  W. Wilson (for Plaintiffs)  Re-exam by Mr. Mackenzie  1 MR. MACKENZIE: He went on for 10 minutes explaining all his  2 concerns about controlling fishing on the Skeena, and  3 that didn't come up at any time during the  4 cross-examination, and I simply —  5 MR. GRANT:  What came up is your question — you said do you  6 abide by openings and closing on the Skeena —  7 MR. MACKENZIE: That's got nothing to do with the high chiefs and  8 their concerns about permits and running fishing on  9 the Skeena and all their other concerns, so I simply  10 want to ask him a couple of questions arising out of  11 his long explanation of his concerns in that respect.  12 And we certainly didn't ask him if he agreed with the  13 opening and closing.  14 MR. GRANT:  And if you had — I asked that question and it arose  15 out of cross, and if you had asked it you would have  16 got this answer and could have explored it in depth.  17 MS. KOENIGSBERG:  Can we note your objection to his  18 re-examination.  19 MR.   GRANT:     I am  sure the  objection is noted,   Ms.   Koenigsberg,  20 but this  concept  of re-re-cross is — gets  carried  21 away here.  22 MR.   MACKENZIE:   Okay.     Well  let's note your  objection and  I'll  23 move on quickly.  24 Q      You said,   Mr.   Wilson,   that the high chiefs want to  25 control  the fishing on the Skeena,   is that correct?  26 A      Yes.  27 Q  You are against the present permit system, is that  28 correct?  2 9 A  That's right.  3 0 Q      What you want to do is you want to prevent non-Gitksan  31 people from using your fishing hole,  is that correct?  3 2 A      No,   it's  not that.  33 Q      You mentioned that you  are concerned about people with  3 4 permits  using your fishing hole,   is that correct?  3 5 A      Yes.     The whole river.  36 Q       Yes.     And those were non-Gitksan people,   correct?  37 A      Well,   it's both,   Indians  and whites.     They are abusing  3 8 our river.     That's what we —  the high  chiefs  don't  3 9 like.     We don't like what's going on.  40 Q      You want the high chiefs to have complete  control   over  41 the river?  42 A  Yes.  Well, we've to — what we want is to control our  43 own traditional areas, and what we want is to sit in  44 with the Fisheries to look after those rivers.  What  45 Fishery is doing nowaday is not controlling it at all.  46 They say they are controlling it, but they are not,  47 and high chiefs see this. We seen it from very 75  W. Wilson (for Plaintiffs)  Re-exam by Mr. Mackenzie  1 beginning when they start issuing permits and  2 non-Indians come in.  They are mad.  How come this so  3 and so fishes with a permit, we not.  That's why they  4 throw in their lines and they poach.  They set nets,  5 non-Indians do.  We know this.  6 Q  You want the power to exclude people from the —  7 fishing in the Skeena?  8 A  What we want, we want to sit in with the Fisheries.  9 We want some say in that, so we could control it, both  10 Indians and non-Indians, and if that come through, you  11 will see the difference.  Within five years you will  12 see all the fish species will come back again.  13  14 (PROCEEDINGS ADJOURNED)  15  16 I HEREBY CERTIFY THE FOREGOING TO  17 BE A .TRUE AND ACCURATE TRANSCRIPT  18 OF THE PROCEEDINGS HEREIN TO THE  19 BEST OF MY SKILL AND ABILITY.  20 —"T7 ^<C  21  22 LORI OXLEY  23 OFFICIAL REPORTER  24 UNITED REPORTING SERVICE LTD.  25 /tt  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47 INDEX OF EXHIBITS  NUMBER DESCRIPTION PAGE  1 AFFIDAVIT AND INTERROGATORY 59C DATED  SEPTEMBER 26, 1986 OF MR. WILSON 8  2 INTERROGATORY AFFIDAVIT DATED FEBRUARY  9, 1986 WITH INTERROGATORY 59C 8  3 AFFIDAVIT OF MR. WILSON DATED JULY 12, 1983       9  4 APPLICATION FOR REGISTRATION OF TRAPLINE  DATED MAY 27, 1976 9  5 BAND COUNCIL RESOLUTION DATED NOVEMBER 3, 1982  CHIEFS' DECLARATION 10  6 PIECE OF PAPER WITH HANDWRITTEN NAMES IN  ENGLISH AND GITKSAN 34  7 SKETCH OF SEATING OF AX DII TS'EEX'S HOUSE       65  EXHIBITSA FOR IDENTIIFCATION -  A        WILLIAM WALE TRAPLINE APPLICATIDN MAP 63  B        GENEALOGY DATED JANUARY 28,1988 67  ADDITIONAL INFORMATION REQUESTED: 18f   62


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