Delgamuukw Trial Transcripts

Commission Evidence of Neil B. Sterritt British Columbia. Supreme Court Aug 29, 1988

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 IN THE SUPREME COURT OF BRITISH COLUMBIA  NO. 0843  SMITHERS, B.C.  AUGUST 29, 30, 19 88  BETWEEN:  AND:  DELGAMUUKW, also known as ALBERT TAIT,  suing on his own behalf and on behalf  of all other members of the HOUSE OF  DELGAMUUKW, and others  Plaintiffs;  HER MAJESTY THE QUEEN IN RIGHT OF THE  PROVINCE OF BRITISH COLUMBIA and  THE ATTORNEY GENERAL OF CANADA,  Defendantst  EVIDENCE  OF  NEIL B. STERRITT  UNITED REPORTING SERVICE LTD.. 510 -1030 WEST GEORGIA STREET. VANCOUVER. 8.C. V6E 4H4 (604) 689-1088 IN  THE SUPREME  COURT OF BRITISH COLUMBIA  NO.  0843  SMITHERS, B  AUGUST 29,  • C.  30, 1988  BETWEEN:  DELGAMUUKW,  also known as ALBERT TAIT,  suing on his own behalf and on  behalf  of all othe  r members of the HOUSE OF  DELGAMUUKW,  and others  Plaintiffs  /  AND:  HER MAJESTY  THE QUEEN IN RIGHT  OF THE  PROVINCE OF  BRITISH COLUMBIA and  THE ATTORNEY GENERAL OF CANADA,  Defendants  •  COMMISSION EVIDENCE  OF  NEIL B. STERRITT  UNITED REPORTING SERVICE LTD., 610 -1030 WEST GEORGIA STREET, VANCOUVER, B.C. V6E 4H4 (604) 689-1088 APPEARANCES:  PETER R. GRANT, ESQ.,  APPEARING FOR THE PLAINTIFFS  JAMES M. MACKENZIE, ESQ./  MS. THORA A. SIGURDSON,  APPEARING FOR HER MAJESTY THE  QUEEN IN RIGHT OF THE PROVINCE  OF BRITISH COLUMBIA;  MS. MARVYN KOENIGSBERG,  MICHAEL W.W. FREY, ESQ.,  APPEARING FOR THE ATTORNEY  GENERAL OF CANADA INDEX  N.   B,   STERRITT    (FOR  PLAINTIFFS)  Cross  Exam by Mr.  Mackenzie 4  Cross  Exam by Ms.   Koenigsberg 59  Re-direct by Mr.   Grant 68 EXHIBITS  NO. DESCRIPTION PAGE  1 CERTIFICATE  OF  TITLE  FOR  BLOCK   24,   DISTRICT  LOT  102 13  2 TITLE NO. D12657 ENTERED DECEMBER 31, 1975 -  BLOCK 30, DISTRICT LOT 10 2 13  3 TITLE NO. F13476 ENTERED DECEMBER 13, 1977 -  PARCEL A. DISTRICT LOT 102 13  4 TITLE NO. 598511 ENTERED' OCTOBER 21, 1959 13  5 TITLE NO. 376301 ENTERED JUNE 23, 1948, LOT 31  TOWNSITE OF HAZELTON 13  6 REGISTRATION OF TRAPLINE OF N.B. STERRITT DATED  NOVEMBER 24, 1945 18  7 RETURN OF REGISTERED TRAPLINE HOLDER DATED  AUGUST 20, 19 38 SIGNED BY N.B. STERRITT 20  8 FEBRUARY 10, 1960 HANDWRITTEN DOCUMENT 21  9 APPLICATION FOR CANCELLATION OF REGISTERED  TRAPLINE DATED SEPTEMBER 19, 1960 21  10 AFFIDAVIT OF MR. STERRITT DATED JUNE 28, 19 87     23  10A   MAP OF NORTHERN TERRITORY ATTACHED TO SCHEDULE  C OF INTERROGATORY 23  10B   MAP OF SOUTHERN TERRITORY ATTACHED TO SCHEDULE  C OF INTERROGATORY 23  11 AFFIDAVIT OF N.B. STERRITT SWORN MAY 8, 19 87  DEALING WITH MEMBERSHIP OF HOUSE OF GUUHADAK      64  FOR IDENTIFICATION  A     MAP DATED MAY 13, 1987 25  ADDITIONAL INFORMATION REQUESTED: 19. 1  Proceedings  1 NEIL B. STERRITT. SWORN:  2  3 MR. GRANT:  As I indicated before, I would like to refer Mr.  4 Mackenzie and Ms. Koenigsberg, who are counsels for  5 the Province and the Attorney General of Canada  6 respectively here, that on paragraph 5 of the  7 affidavit of Mr. Sterritt, that would be Neil B.  8 Sterritt, on page 2, seventh line up from the bottom  9 it states:  10  11 "(Unnamed creek on Government maps), then west  12 along the south bank of Xsi Aatix Sganeexs  13 ..."  14  15 X-s-i, A-a-t-i-x second word, S-g-a-n-e-e-x-s  16 third word.  Where it says:  17  18 "Then west along the south bank ..."  19  20 It should be:  21  22 "Then east along the south bank ..."  23  24 And I think that's probably obvious from map 9A.  I  25 can't recall the exhibit number that is.  26 MS. SIGURDSON: 9A is not an exhibit.  27 MR. GRANT:  Okay.  But it's part of an exhibit, I think, map 9A  28 that was tendered in Neil Sterritt's evidence.  So  29 that correction was a typographical error.  It's not  30 an error of instructions at all.  Is there an exhibit  31 number for that?  I think it was reserved.  32 MR. MACKENZIE:  No, I don't have an exhibit number.  Map 9A,  33 June 28th, 1988.  34 MR. GRANT:  June 28, 1988 map, yes.  That is a correction on —  35 and that is of course — that affidavit is Exhibit 601  36 in the trial.  I would like that correction to be  37 noted for the record.  38 The genealogy of Wii Kaax was delivered, I believe,  39 and tendered prior to the evidence of Neil John  40 Sterritt, and I would like to refer you to page 9 of  41 that genealogy.  George Green, Haspaiyets, is a  42 brother to Barbara Green. The line up above to the  43 other triangle and the equal sign should be deleted  44 and a solid line run across from Barbara Green to  45 George Green like so.  46 For the record I have shown the change on my copy.  47 On page 18 and 19, they should be looked at together. 2  Proceedings  1 On page 19 on the highest line you have Maude Johnson,  2 M-a-u-d-e, and she is — she adopted Wallace Johnson,  3 who is on page 18.  So there should be a line, a  4 dotted line going down from Maude Johnson and across  5 to Wallace Johnson.  Wallace Johnson was subsequently  6 adopted back out of the House, and so there should be  7 a slash line through Wallace Johnson.  The triangle  8 above Wallace Johnson —  9 MS. KOENIGSBERG: You want to run through that again.  10 (OFF THE RECORD)  11 MR. GRANT:  This is something you may wish to examine the  12 witness on, but I don't want you to examine the  13 witness from a misunderstanding of the genealogy.  14 Maude Johnson, whose name is on page 19, adopted  15 Wallace Johnson, who is the third line from the top on  16 page 18.  Therefore there should be a dotted line  17 going down from Maude Johnson and across to Wallace  18 Johnson.  And I would like you to disregard the other  19 notations because I will come to them in a moment.  20 Like so.  You follow? Okay.  21 I have been further instructed that Wallace Johnson  22 was subsequently adopted out of Wii Gaak's House, and  23 there should a slash through the triangle above  24 Wallace Johnson's name to so indicate.  I have been  25 further instructed that those other names, that is the  26 names with which Wallace Johnson is connected there,  27 starting from Noxs Doogogeiss, that's N-o-x-s, one  28 word, D-o-o-g-o-g-a-i-s, the second word, and going  29 down to the same line as Wallace, that is Peter, and  30 including Samuel Hope/Charlie Oop, that's O-o-p,  31 Jeannie Hope, Michell Wilson and Sam Hope, that those  32 people, that is the ones in the genealogical line, not  33 the spouses of course, not the male spouses, but that  34 those people are not in Wii Gaak's house.  35 MS. KOENIGSBERG:  So from the line which has Peter and then  36 Wallace Johnson above on page 18 are not in the House?  37 MR. GRANT:  They are not in the House. And that small grouping,  38 aside from Wallace Johnson, should not be referred to  39 on the genealogy.  40 MR. MACKENZIE:  Peter is not in Wii Gaak either?  41 MR. GRANT:  No.  Then on page 19, if you look at — you will see  42 Harold Eades, and under Harold Eades, Monica Green.  43 The way its been diagramed, it would appear that  44 Harold Eades was married to Lillian Green.  In fact  45 Harold Eades should — there should be an equal sign  46 after Lloyd Schroeder on page 18, and on there a  47 triangle and Harold Eades, indicating by that that 3  Proceedings  1 Harold Eades was in fact married to Jessie Green, and  2 then the daughter of that relationship was Monica  3 Green as referred to there.  I will show you.  It's  4 there.  That last reference on page 19 should be moved  5 over so it indicates that that's Jessie Green.  Those  6 are the origin for the genealogy for Wii Gaak.  That's  7 the one dated January 25th, 1988.  8 And just to clear up one other matter, that I  9 received the response and I understand now that it's  10 impossible for you to either do Abel Sampson or  11 Solomon Jack on Thursday morning, and Mr. Wesley —  12 Herbert Wesley is unavailable.  I also understand that  13 we will complete each witness before starting the next  14 witness, and that's agreed to.  If we have any slop  15 over 'til Thursday morning, which we may have because  16 of the trapline map examination, then we use that time  17 accordingly.  I want to confirm that of course those  18 witnesses — either one of those witnesses would be  19 available, but you are not able to examine.  20 MR. MACKENZIE:  No, as I'm sure you will agree, this just came  21 up late last week, so we are unable to prepare for the  22 new witnesses which you have suggested.  23 And Peter, if I can just add to what you said  24 briefly.  You said each witness would be completed,  25 and I think generally speaking we agree with that.  It  26 may be necessary, I don't know if it will, for some  27 reason to adjourn one of those examinations, but  28 generally speaking we are trying to complete each one  29 before we go onto the next. You may want us to  30 adjourn in view of the convenience for the next  31 witness, for example, or there may be something that  3 2 comes up that we won't be able to deal with and —  33 MR. GRANT:  Uh-huh.  34 MR. MACKENZIE:  — anything else.  35  36    CROSS EXAMINED BY MR. MACKENZIE:  37  38 Q  Mr. Sterritt, Mr. Neil Sterritt senior, I am showing  39 you a copy of Exhibit 601, which is — seems to be an  40 affidavit signed by you, sworn by you on May 10, 1988.  41 Is that in fact your signature on the original?  I am  42 showing you a copy.  43 A  Yes, that's right.  44 Q  So to the best of your knowledge Exhibit 601 is the  45 affidavit that you swore in these proceedings?  46 A  This is the 601?  47 Q  Yes. 4  N.B. Sterritt (for Plaintiffs)  Cross Exam by Mr. Mackenzie  1 A  Yes.  2 Q  That — in that affidavit you describe certain  3 territory at paragraph 5. Does your House claim any  4 other territory besides the territory described in  5 that affidavit?  6 A  There is that — does that describe right from the  7 north end to the south end? You see we have —  8 actually in our own we have inside the territories,  9 like Xsi Gwin Gyilaa'a and An Gil Gilanous, and then  10 we also — I don't know if it's in the — we'll come  11 to an area called — in the English it's Sicintine,  12 you see.  And that's before we get over into the pass  13 towards Xsu Wii Ax, but we'll also come into an area  14 named after the river Xsi Gwin Gyilaa'a.  That's also  15 known as another territory.  I'll just finish it  16 before I explain to you why.  So then across Xsu Wii  17 Ax everything north of that to the north boundaries  18 are known as the Xsu Wii Ax territory.  That is so the  19 chiefs — there is other chiefs below me — they have  20 certain territories to look after, certain territories  21 to trap in, and that's why we have those separate  22 names, and that describes them.  It's usually by the  23 river there or a mountain and an area, and like north  24 of Xsu Wii Ax, that was Wii Gaak's almost private  25 territory.  He had the first — and that's for years,  26 and that's where we also trap too.  We were very, very  27 close to the Xsu Wii Ax.  28 Q  When you say "we", who is that?  29 A  That's anybody.  My mother's side of the family or my  30 grandmother, Jessie Morrison.  31 Q  Well, yes, you mention now there are generally two  32 territories.  There is one north of the Sustut,  33 correct?  34 A  Actually it's all one territory with different — when  35 I was telling you with different names.  So as you can  36 talk to your chief and say go to Xsi Gwin Gyilaa'a,  37 Sicintine, Xsu Wii Ax.  38 Q  I see.  I understand.  39 A  So instead of — we haven't — I haven't got mileage  40 or anything like that. Or like even in the area of  41 the headwaters of Xsi Gwin Gyilaa'a and Xsi Mootixwit,  42 there is that lake in there too, you see.  So you  43 describe those territories by names.  44 Q  Now, could I ask you when you use the Indian names if  45 you could — when you use the Indian names, could you  46 remember that the Reporter is trying to take them down  47 and your son Neil Sterritt is assisting her, but 5  N.B. Sterritt (for Plaintiffs)  Cross Exam by Mr. Mackenzie  1 please try and remember that she's not familiar with  2 them, so if you could say them more slowly when you  3 mention them please.  4 MR. GRANT:  Of course, Madam Reporter, you can stop at any time  5 the witness if you're not caught up.  6 MR. MACKENZIE:  That's something we have to keep in mind is that  7 we are trying to take it all down.  Sometimes we move  8 along so quickly it's difficult to do.  So try and  9 keep that in mind please.  10 Q  I guess the question I was asking you was this is one  11 whole territory, but there are two general areas, one  12 north of the Sustut, correct, and one south of the  13 Sustut; is that fair to say?  14 A  That's right, yes.  15 Q  Now, the question I was asking you, Mr. Sterritt, was  16 apart from the one territory with the two areas, does  17 your House claim other territories?  18 A  Yes.  We have one territory that's a very small  19 territory, and that's north and across the Skeena, and  20 it's a very small territory and which is — I think  21 you will see it on your map that — the boundaries on  22 that is the north boundary is Barker Creek and the  23 south boundary is Foster Creek, and then it goes to  24 the height of land.  That's the west boundary.  And  25 then of course the east boundary would be half ways up  26 the Skeena.  27 Q  Does your — sorry.  28 A  That's the other territory besides the one on the big  29 piece, and it's — it's only — I would say that maybe  3 0 that's 15 miles, the boundary facing the Skeena, and  31 maybe seven and-a-half miles steep to the top, height  3 2 of the land.  33 Q  Besides those two territories now, does your House  34 claim any other territories?  35 MR. GRANT: Within the territory of this court action?  36 MR. MACKENZIE:  Yes.  37 THE WITNESS: No.  38 MR. MACKENZIE:  39 Q  Does your House claim any other territories outside of  40 the territories of the court action?  41 A  What was the last one?  42 Q  Mr. Grant was saying that we were talking about the  43 land inside the Gitksan Wet'suwet'en land claim area.  44 A  Yes.  45 Q  And I wanted to know whether your House claimed any  46 land outside that area.  47 MR. GRANT:  I think that's irrelevant to these proceedings.  The 6  N.B. Sterritt (for Plaintiffs)  Cross Exam by Mr. Mackenzie  1 reason I asked for the clarification was to ensure  2 that your question was within the scope of relevance,  3 and I don't think it's necessary to ask the witness  4 about anything else.  If it's not the subject matter  5 of these proceedings, it makes no difference.  6 MR. MACKENZIE:  Well, I disagree with you, Peter, because if the  7 House is claiming land outside the territorial  8 boundaries, then it becomes a question of why the  9 boundaries don't include that other property.  You see  10 what I mean?  11 MR. GRANT: Well, it wasn't a narrowing down put by the witness,  12 it was put down by me.  13 MR. MACKENZIE:  Yes.  14 MR. GRANT:  I can advise you what I am instructed, that there is  15 no other claim outside the territories, and I am  16 prepared to say that for the record.  I don't think  17 it's necessary to ask the witness about that, because  18 it was my clarification for a point of relevance.  19 MR. MACKENZIE:  20 Q  Mr. Sterritt, if I may, I would like to ask you a  21 couple of questions about your personal history.  I  22 understand that you have been involved in several  23 occupations over the years, and could you just  24 summarize the sorts of things you have been doing over  25 the years?  26 A  My occupation?  27 Q  Yes.  28 A  You want me to start right from the beginning?  29 Q  Yes.  30 A  Okay.  When I was — got out of school I worked for —  31 in the woods and logging.  That's in the cedar —  32 people working for manufacturing cedar poles, and  33 those were pole camps and that. And another job that  34 I had for awhile was working up in the Big Missouri  35 Mine.  That's up at Stewart.  I worked there for two  36 or three months, but that was too much like  37 underground stuff. And then I also worked for the  38 geological survey. That's just before the war. And  39 then I was at the time I was clerking for Sargents,  40 working in their store when I joined the Army in 1940.  41 So 1940 'til '45, September, was '40, and I think I  42 was discharged around December, '45.  43 Now when I came back from the Army I went to work  44 for Sargents. They had — we had the local power  45 plant there, and I worked for them 'til B.C. Hydro  46 come in 19 — around 1949.  47 I went to work for B.C. Hydro, I think, for two 7  N.B. Sterritt (for Plaintiffs)  Cross Exam by Mr. Mackenzie  1 years, and I quit them and I went back into the woods  2 to work for myself.  And I worked there 'til, I think,  3 about '66.  I had quite a few years in that and I had  4 enough, because actually I was living right out there  5 and working, putting in a lot of time away from my  6 family.  At that time my family was grown up enough  7 that I tried to educate them, and actually I didn't  8 need that much money to work that hard.  So then I  9 think I went back to the B.C. Hydro until they — we  10 had a local power plant, and so when I was — they  11 moved — we had had the power come in, and we had a  12 choice of staying with them and moving out, and I  13 didn't want to move from Hazelton or Gitanmaax or  14 whatever you want to call it.  15 So off and on then I then went back relieving with  16 them — they had a unit out of Prince Rupert up the  17 Falls River, had a Hydro unit there, and used to go  18 and relieve there, go in for 20 days relieving people  19 on holidays.  20 I also worked for the Forestry as well off and on  21 with looking after their camps for tree planting.  I  22 went north and covered the north there on teaching  23 fire surpression Started at Iskut back to Kitimat,  24 back to Telegraph Creek, Watson Lake and back to  25 Atlin.  I think about then I was ready to retire  26 again.  27 Now, everything that I have done you are saying, or  28 what I was employed at?  29 Q  Yes.  30 A  Now, would you call — I was Chief Councillor for a  31 couple of years. Would you call that being employed?  32 Q  Well, I was going to ask you about things like that,  33 your other experiences. But were you Chief Councillor  34 at the Gitanmaax Band?  35 A  Gitanmaax Band, that's right. Chief Councillor, not  36 chief.  37 Q  I understand. And when was that?  38 A  That was '86 — well, I just got this last June.  I  3 9 had a two year service.  In June, middle of June I was  40 through.  I didn't — I am getting at the age I should  41 retire.  42 Q  You have had a very busy life. I understand you have  43 also ran for Mayor of the village of Hazelton?  44 A  That's right.  45 Q  And when was that?  46 A  I'm not just too sure whether it's five to six years  47 ago. N.B. Sterritt (for Plaintiffs)  Cross Exam by Mr. Mackenzie  1 Q  And you have been elected to the village Council in  2 Hazelton?  3 A  Oh, yes.  Actually when we first got incorporated  4 there was things we needed there, sidewalks and stuff  5 like that. And I should tell you, after the war that  6 I had to have a home, and there was a home available  7 in the village — well, it wasn't the village of  8 Hazelton then.  So I bought that where I still live.  9 So actually the village or the town of Hazelton is  10 the service centre for the Gitksan people, which  11 includes Kispiox, Glen Vowell, Gitanmaax is very lucky  12 that they have it there, because Gitanmaax is one  13 place that has a liquor store. They have hotels, they  14 have stores, post office, hospital.  So that was one  15 reason — actually I think they were called  16 commissioners then at that time, and that is, I think,  17 in '51.  I'm not sure when Hazelton first  18 incorporated.  Actually maybe still is the smallest  19 village that's incorporated.  20 And that was one reason I was getting on the board,  21 to be able to improve our supply centre.  And not only  22 that, before that we didn't have running water in  23 Hazelton.  We have had Water Boards there and they  24 were doing nothing.  So they quit.  So then Ward  25 Marshall, Bill Sargent and myself, we formed a Water  26 Board and raised money, I think mostly through  27 Sargent's grocery money at that store, and we tapped  28 into the Hospital Lake.  It was a three way deal, the  29 Gitanmaax village, the hospital and Hazelton.  30 Hospital came from the lake as far as to the hospital  31 grounds, if you know where the hospital is, and from  32 there it was Gitanmaax and around Hazelton. Now, we  33 were on that Water Board 'til Perry York was the  34 Mayor, the three of us.  35 Q  And I understand — sorry.  36 A  So I was saying —  37 Q  Yes.  38 A  — the reason I volunteered for this, not just for the  39 village of Hazelton, but it's for our own people.  We  40 had to have running water.  41 Q  I understand.  And I understand that you have also  42 served the community by being a member of the Kinsmen  43 Club?  44 A  That's right.  45 Q  When did you — when —  46 A  Actually I was an honourary member, because you could  47 not be a member — it's certain ages to 40, and I was 9  N.B. Sterritt (for Plaintiffs)  Cross Exam by Mr. Mackenzie  1 over 40.  2 Q  And have you — are you still an honourary member?  3 A  Well, I think once you are a member you are an  4 honourary member.  I mean, some of the things I didn't  5 agree with what they were doing.  I mean, we played  6 too hard, we worked hard, but I think the playing too  7 hard is the part I didn't like.  8 Q  And I take it you are a member of the Hazelton Chamber  9 of Commerce?  10 A  I used to be.  I haven't gone back there for years.  11 Q  You made a presentation to the Chamber of Commerce  12 earlier this year?  13 A  I beg your pardon?  14 Q  You made a presentation to the Chamber of Commerce  15 earlier this year?  16 A  That's right.  17 Q  And is it fair to say that generally speaking you were  18 concerned to have the timber from the area north of  19 Sustut come into the Hazelton rather than go to Prince  20 George?  21 A  That's right.  And we are still going to try, because  22 that Sustut area you are talking about, that's our  23 territory, and that was the reason that I went to that  24 meeting, to speak for myself, not for the other  25 chiefs.  26 Q  I understand.  Now, you mentioned the house that you  27 bought after the war in Hazelton, and you have  28 continued to live in the village of Hazelton since  29 that time.  30 A  That's right.  31 Q  Yes.  You haven't lived on the reserve since the war?  32 A  No.  No.  We were raised on the reserve in Glen  33 Vowell, born and raised until I was 9 years old, and  34 we moved to Gitanmaax. We lived on the reserve at  35 Gitanmaax while we were going to school there.  And we  36 went to the public school, not to the Indian day  37 school, because actually we were at Glen Vowell, and  38 the schooling on those reserves then, I think at Grade  3 9 9 1 was up as far as I could go.  40 Q  I see. Now, in addition to that property that you  41 purchased in Hazelton, I understand you owned some  42 other property?  43 A  That's right.  44 Q  Can you tell me how many other pieces of property you  45 own?  46 A  I own a piece of property up the Skeena, and it was  47 bought privately.  I was logging in that area and the 10  N.B. Sterritt (for Plaintiffs)  Cross Exam by Mr. Mackenzie  1 man that owned it, the name was Jack Frost.  That was  2 purchased just before first World War I. Two brothers  3 come out from the old country to here.  They are going  4 to go into the cattle business. They bought a piece  5 of land just about five or six miles out of Hazelton,  6 and they had this land surveyed.  That's going to be  7 their grazing land for a cattle ranch.  One of them  8 didn't come back.  Jack Frost came back and he worked  9 in the Forestry, and so then he retired in Prince  10 Rupert — I mean in Victoria.  He inquired as who was  11 working in that area logging, and I was logging that  12 area.  And the people that I was logging — around at  13 that time those people, the House of Nuuxs owned that  14 territory, and I — and I had those people work for  15 me, like Thomas Brown, Joe Brown, Perry Sampson.  I  16 had Dick Lattie working there because he was married  17 to Emma Brown.  I bought that to log. Actually the  18 man was giving it away.  19 Q  And you still own it today?  20 A  Yes.  I will never sell it.  21 MR. GRANT:  I don't think he's finished.  22 MR. MACKENZIE:  23 Q  I'm sorry.  24 A  And I bought that and I started to log it, and I —  25 mind you, last winter I logged spruce off it because  26 the spruce were mature and they will rot.  Cedar will  27 stand indefinitely.  I got into some of the cedar and  28 then I stopped when I got into the first growth cedar.  29 Cedar that is — that we'll never see again.  30 Q  Yes.  31 A  And I am leaving those.  They are standing.  I'll  32 never — I'll tell you how much that means to me.  33 It's a mile of river frontage and half a mile deep.  34 Q  Is that up the Salmon River Road?  35 A  Past Salmon River.  It's on the Skeena.  36 Q  Up the road to Kisgegas?  37 A  To Kisgegas.  It's 19 miles from our house in Hazelton  38 there.  39 Q  I see.  40 A  I have had offers, about every two weeks when the land  41 rush was on.  I had one call from Vancouver, wanted to  42 buy it, and I said "You people haven't got enough  43 money to buy it", and he said "Yes, we have." These  44 were Germans that wanted to buy it.  I have had  45 Germans, Japanese, Americans, Canadians, and I won't  46 sell it.  47 Q  Is it about 300 acres? 11  N.B. Sterritt (for Plaintiffs)  Cross Exam by Mr. Mackenzie  1 A  About 2 88 acres.  There is a piece been taken out for  2 a road through there which I haven't settled yet,  3 because I have to get some legal advice on it.  4 Q  Do you own land anywhere else?  5 MR. GRANT:  Just a moment.  I don't know if he is finished.  6 THE WITNESS:   I am not through with this yet.  The reason I am  7 not selling it is I know it is Indian land.  Although  8 it is surveyed and buying it and holding it, it's part  9 of our own land, the Gitksan people that I am  10 protecting.  11 MR. MACKENZIE:  12 Q  Yes.  And when did you buy it?  13 A  I think it might have been '53.  It should be on  14 the — I have a title to it.  15 Q  Is that right, '53?  16 A  I don't have a copy of it there.  It was approximately  17 at that time.  It was after I went logging  I went up  18 logging there in '51.  It was after I was logging in  19 there that I had the opportunity to buy it.  20 Q  Who was the chief who owned the territory then, '53?  21 A  Actually that's Abel Brown and those guys.  And Nuuxs  22 is their head chief or Wii Ap is their — well, at  23 that time Thomas Brown and Joe Brown, they were the  24 oldest in that family, and they have a fishing site  25 there which is registered — or I mean its been a  26 reserve, put a reserve by the Federal Government.  27 That's Xsi Din. No, not Xsi Din. There is a very  28 prominent creek there.  It's approximately 17 miles  29 from Hazelton, and they have a — one of their fishing  30 holes, the family fishing hole, and there is quite a  31 big reserve marked out there.  So it was Thomas Brown  3 2 and Joe Brown, they live there for the summer.  They  33 will put up salmon, have smoke houses there.  34 Q  And who is the chief who owned the territory at that  35 time?  36 MR. GRANT:  You mean by English name?  37 MR. MACKENZIE:  38 Q  Yes.  3 9 A  I'm not sure who had the name of Wii Ap at that time.  40 You see, because Abel one of the younger son has the  41 name Wii Ap.  4 2 Q  I understand. And do you own some other property?  43 A  Yes, I own some other property just north of the  44 Hospital Lake.  45 Q  And when did you buy that?  46 A  Around the '70's I think.  47 Q  Are you — is there anything happening in that — 12  N.B. Sterritt (for Plaintiffs)  Cross Exam by Mr. Mackenzie  1 anyone living there?  2 A  Not right now, no.  I had a trailer on there.  I had  3 to improve it and build on it, but I had too many  4 break-ins and I pulled it out of there.  It was just  5 too much damage.  6 Q  Whose territory is that one in?  7 A  They will be — what's his name? Jimmy Woods is the  8 English name.  I know the name well.  It's just one of  9 those things that —  10 Q  And do you have any other property —  11 MR. GRANT:  Jimmy Woods is a plaintiff in the action.  12 THE WITNESS:  Actually up back in there I have — they are on  13 four and-a-half acre lots and there is four together,  14 and up above it there is another four and-a-half acre  15 lot.  There is actually two pieces in there.  In fact  16 I may even have three titles to that area. And I  17 think there is one — the first one I got was a four  18 and-a-half acre.  I think that's a separate title.  19 And then I think there was three lots together that  20 are together, and then the one up on the hill I  21 bought — I bought these off of the government.  The  22 other one, I bought that privately owned up on top of  23 the hill.  It's another four and-a-half acre lot.  24 It's uncleared.  The others are cleared.  25 Q  How many pieces of land would you say that you own  26 now, Mr. Sterritt?  27 A  Would I own?  28 Q  Yes.  2 9 A  Well, that's between my wife and I.  30 Q  How many —  31 A  That's off the reserve or off — you mean like in  32 Crown land with titles?  33 Q  Yes.  3 4 A  Okay. Well, I own — we own that one up at the  35 Skeena.  36 Q  Yes.  37 A  And there is those three pieces there.  38 Q  Yes.  3 9 A  And then our house.  40 Q  So that would be five, is that right?  41 A  That's right.  42 Q  Well, I think I'll just file these certificates of  43 title, these certified copies of the certificates of  44 title. And there are five of them there. /  45 (OFF THE RECORD)  46 MR. MACKENZIE:  I am just going to put in these first five  47 exhibits, which will be numbered exhibits one to five. 13  N.B. Sterritt (for Plaintiffs)  Cross Exam by Mr. Mackenzie  1 Exhibit 1 will be the certificate of title for block  2 24, district lot 102.  Exhibit 1 is title number D3746  3 entered May 5, 1975.  Exhibit 2 is title number D12657  4 entered December 31, 1975, and it's block 30, district  5 lot 102.  Exhibit 3 is title number F13476 entered  6 December 13, 1977.  It's parcel A district lot 102.  7 Exhibit 4, title number 598511, entered October 21,  8 1959.  Exhibit 5, title number 376301, entered June  9 23, 1948.  Lot 31, townsite of Hazelton.  10 (EXHIBIT NO. 1 - CERTIFICATE OF TITLE FOR  11 BLOCK 24, DISTRICT LOT 102)  12 (EXHIBIT NO. 2 - TITLE NO. D12657 ENTERED  13 DECEMBER 31, 1975 - BLOCK 30, DISTRICT LOT  14 102)  15 (EXHIBIT NO. 3 - TITLE NO. F13476 ENTERED  16 DECEMBER 13, 1977 - PARCEL A, DISTRICT LOT  17 102)  18 (EXHIBIT NO. 4 - TITLE NO. 598511 ENTERED  19 OCTOBER 21, 1959)  20 (EXHIBIT NO. 5 - TITLE NO. 376301 ENTERED JUNE  21 23, 1948, LOT 31 - TOWNSITE OF HAZELTON)  22 Q  Did you want to say something?  23 A  You were asking me who the chief was.  Nikateen was —  24 is the chief in that area, but you must remember, sir,  25 that certain parts for the village of Gitanmaax, those  26 chiefs have given up those areas for the Gitksan  27 people to settle on.  And actually the reserve  28 boundary is what the white man put up.  That's not our  29 boundary.  And I feel when we buy these — and  30 actually we should have bought it.  Those places are  31 open.  A white man buys that and we haven't got a  32 chance to own it again.  As far as I am concerned it's  33 Gitksan land.  3 4 Q  Well, I take it when you purchased those properties  35 you didn't seek permission from the chiefs for the  36 purchase transaction?  37 MR. GRANT: Which properties? All of them?  38 MR. MACKENZIE:  Those five properties.  39 MR. GRANT:  So the townsite of Hazelton, Hospital Lake and the  40 one up the Skeena?  41 MR. MACKENZIE:  42 Q  I think there are five properties, yes.  43 A  As I have said before, that Gitanmaax area is a big  44 area, and that was given up to be a village site for  45 the Gitksan people.  Sitting in Hazelton there today  46 in the municipality, I am on Indian land as far as I  47 am concerned. 14  N.B. Sterritt (for Plaintiffs)  Cross Exam by Mr. Mackenzie  1 Q  I take it that when you purchased those five  2 properties you didn't seek permission of the chiefs  3 who owned the properties?  4 A  I'll repeat, that that area there are other Indians on  5 the reserve where went out further out than I did.  I  6 am right close into Hazelton.  In fact I have to come  7 through the reserve.  I have had permission to go  8 through the reserve to get there.  And I feel, as I  9 have said, that as you will see, if you could only see  10 where the people of Gitanmaax for years and years they  11 are allowed a bigger area than where I am in there for  12 wood.  You don't see any evergreen trees within miles  13 because they have to go out there for wood, berries,  14 rabbits, hunting. You don't need no permission within  15 so many miles of those areas that is given up by the  16 chief and chiefs for the Gitksan people to live on.  17 Q  So could you answer the question whether you asked  18 permission of the chiefs when you bought those five  19 properties?  20 A  Well, as I have said, I pointed out to you that I  21 didn't need permission.  The Gitksan people had an  22 understanding that they can own land within so many  23 miles, which they have done. They have built up the  24 Skeena about seven miles where they have property, and  25 that was by the government.  They put a boundary on  26 it, called it a reserve, but it's already owned by the  27 people.  And what I have done is I have gone in,  28 claimed by the white man, that is our land, because  29 Dam Ska Loobit, that's the name of the lake, Dam Ska  30 Loobit, belongs to the Gitksan people, which is also  31 on the village municipality now.  32 Q  So I take it from what you have said that you didn't  33 ask permission, you assumed —  34 A  I figure I had the right to go there.  35 Q  I understand.  Okay.  Thank you.  Now, Mr. Sterritt,  36 you have been married twice?  37 A  That's right.  38 Q  And these two ladies were white ladies?  39 A  That's right.  40 Q  Yes.  And I understand that you used to have a  41 trapline. Do you have a trapline now?  42 A  Not that little trapline, no, that was — that — I  43 registered that trapline.  I asked my mother.  I said  44 I know that my uncle used to set snares on there,  45 Charles Martin, Guu Laa, and I wanted to go trapping,  46 and I asked — it's just — it's such a small area,  47 but I asked her where I — if I could go there.  And 15  N.B. Sterritt (for Plaintiffs)  Cross Exam by Mr. Mackenzie  1 she said yes, and what we call from the Mohawk, 4 Mile  2 Creek, to 9 Miles.  So I came to Smithers to register  3 it, and the game warden told me that was fine and  4 dandy, but said you should go across there.  There is  5 a place that is not registered up the Suskwa.  And  6 without thinking I registered that as well.  7 Now, when I got back and I told my mother about  8 that, she said no, she says you don't go across 9  9 mile.  That's not our territory.  We trapped — while  10 I was working in town we trapped — it was just a play  11 thing, build a cabin out there, and Ward Marshall was  12 my partner.  13 Now, when I was out logging I got behind on the  14 payments on the trapline, you see.  I think it was $10  15 a year or something like that.  So I come up here to  16 pay it, and that — Mr. Cox was here then, the game  17 warden, and he said, "Well, just put it in Ward's name  18 for a year or two", he said, "and then get it back.  19 You don't have to pay that out.  Let Ward register it.  20 You got that now." Ward Marshall was my partner.  The  21 game warden recommended that it was a measly 10 or 20  22 dollars.  It was a lot of money in those days.  And he  23 said, "If you let him register it, you wait a couple  24 of years and then he can turn it back to you."  And  25 that's never been done, and I have still got the copy  26 of when I first registered it, the receipt.  27 Q  That was in 1945?  28 A  It could have been that, yes.  As I said, I have still  29 got it at home that — when I registered it.  30 Q  And you transferred to Ward?  31 A  Ward Marshall.  3 2 Q  In 19 — some time in 196 0?  33 A  I can't — the exact date.  But I mean he's a lot  34 older than I am and a friend of mine.  He's about 80  35 years old.  36 Q  You had that registered trapline for about 15 years?  37 MR. GRANT:  Just a second.  Wait.  Wait. Don't answer that  38 question.  For the record you are looking at —  39 obviously trapline application — trapline  40 registrations, which I haven't seen copies of, and you  41 are referring him to dates. He said that he can't  42 recall the date that he registered it and the date it  43 was transferred to Ward Marshall. Now you are asking  44 him, after putting him the two dates which he says he  45 can't recall, you're saying if he agrees with those  46 dates.  He can't remember those dates.  If you want  47 him to refresh his memory to get a clear answer one 16  N.B. Sterritt (for Plaintiffs)  Cross Exam by Mr. Mackenzie  1 way or the other, you can show him the documents, but  2 I object to the question when he says he can't recall  3 the dates.  4 MR. MACKENZIE:  5 Q  Okay.  Mr. Sterritt, you agreed that it was some time  6 in the mid-forties that you registered on that  7 trapline?  8 A  It was after I come out of the Army.  9 Q  All right.  So it would be some time around 1945?  10 A  No, it could be later than that.  Maybe '46.  I'm not  11 sure now.  As I say, I'm not sure.  That's a long ways  12 back.  13 Q  I understand. And then you transferred it. Would it  14 be in the early sixties?  15 A  I beg your pardon?  16 Q  You transferred it to Ward Marshall.  Was that the  17 early sixties?  18 A  I can't really hear what you're saying.  19 Q  I'm sorry. You transferred it to Ward Marshall.  20 Would that be in the early 1960's?  21 A  No, I can't tell either.  It was after I was working  22 up the Skeena, and I stayed there almost full time.  I  23 think I went up there in '51 and 'til '66, but I was  24 tied up up there and — so anywhere from '51 to '66.  25 I can't tell you, but, I mean, it should be in the  26 record when he registered it.  If we want to look it  27 up.  28 Q  You didn't do too much trapping in that line, did you?  29 A  It was more of a fun deal than anything else.  Take  30 the kids out, both his and mine.  31 Q  And you haven't done trapping in any other areas, have  3 2 you?  33 A  Yes, I have.  34 Q  All right.  35 Q  You presently have a trapline?  36 A  Yes, we have.  37 Q  And where is that?  38 A  That's — I just described to you the Xsu Wii Ax and  39 An Gil Gilanous.  That's our trapline.  40 Q  Who owns that trapline?  41 MR. GRANT: Whose is it registered?  42 THE WITNESS: You mean — you are talking about — wait a minute  43 now.  I trapped on our territory, and there is where  44 the mistake is being made by — with us when we are  45 not as educated and we are talking a foreign language.  46 Sometimes we don't understand exactly what you are  47 asking or questioning is about.  It was even worse 17  N.B. Sterritt (for Plaintiffs)  Cross Exam by Mr. Mackenzie  1 with people like my uncles.  Now, Thomas and Jack  2 Wright signed — they call my uncles — and those  3 people, I don't know how much education, whether they  4 can read or not, but they will go into the game  5 wardens and don't realize the difference between a  6 trapline and a territory.  7 Q  So the trapping that you did up there was again sort  8 of a hobby, wasn't it?  9 A  No, it wasn't.  No.  I was really — I'm retired and I  10 have put my heart in it, and I spend a lot of money.  11 I put out a lot of money out of my own pocket to equip  12 myself.  13 Q  And that's since you are retired?  14 A  That was — when did I go in there now.  Let's see.  15 It's — there was two years.  What pulled me out of  16 there was this going to the — getting the — being  17 Chief Councillor.  I thought it would be a part-time  18 job, and it ended up to be just a full-time job.  It  19 was one of the hardest work I have ever done in my  20 life, and I really put my heart into it, and I  21 couldn't go in there.  I had a grant coming of  22 $11,000, and I couldn't get anybody to go with my boy,  23 and I cancelled that grant rather than be phoney.  I  24 know I couldn't go back there, and I couldn't trust  25 anybody else to go back there, because there was that  26 much money available.  I had already also put out on  27 my own $4,500 for a snow mobile, a four-by-four Honda.  28 I bought one for — a secondhand one, $4,500, which I  29 still have those.  30 Q  And was this in the 1980's?  31 MR. GRANT:  I don't think he's —  32 THE WITNESS:  That's right.  If I can go back.  I guess I was  33 Chief Councillor, I think it was '66 I got to be Chief  34 Councillor in June.  35 MR. GRANT:  In '86?  36 THE WITNESS:  I mean in '86, yes.  So I was in there the winter  37 before and before that too.  I was alone the first  38 winter and my son was with me the second winter,  39 Richard.  40 MR. MACKENZIE:  41 Q  So that was 1984 and 1985?  42 A  It could be that, yes.  43 Q  And you weren't trapping in there before then, were  44 you?  45 A  No, sir.  46 Q  All right.  I am just showing you an application for  47 registration of a trapline dated November 24, 1945, 18  N.B. Sterritt (for Plaintiffs)  Cross Exam by Mr. Mackenzie  1 and I am asking you to identify your signature on that  2 please.  3 MR. GRANT:  Just a moment.  What document number is this from?  4 MR. MACKENZIE:  18 B.C. 1877.  5 Q  Mr. Sterritt, I have just asked you to identify your  6 signature on the bottom of that document.  7 A  Do you mind if I read it over?  8 Q  I am asking you to identify your signature first  9 please.  10 MR. GRANT:  Let him read it.  11 MR. MACKENZIE:  Excuse me, I have asked him to identify his  12 signature.  He can read it after he does that please.  13 MR. GRANT:  If he wants to read it now, he can read it now, Mr.  14 Mackenzie.  It would expedite matters greatly if you  15 would disclose these documents to us in advance.  16 MR. MACKENZIE:  Off the record.  17 MR. GRANT:  No, don't go off the record.  We have to agree to go  18 off the record, Mr. Mackenzie.  19 MR. MACKENZIE: Will you go off the record please.  20 MR. GRANT:  You understand, Ms. Oxley, you can't.  21 MR. MACKENZIE:  Well, these documents of course have been  22 disclosed.  You have had a full opportunity to examine  23 them if you wish.  24 THE WITNESS:  Yes, this is my signature, but I'm not sure if I  25 recognize the description here, because its been done  26 by the game warden again.  And I told you that he  27 recommended I trap further than what I applied for,  28 and I made the mistake of doing it.  But I never went  29 across that, and I think Ward might have gone across  30 that, but I think he realized he's moved off of it,  31 but I explained to you the boundaries was what —  32 MR. MACKENZIE:  33 Q  That's your signature?  3 4        A  Yes.  35 MR. MACKENZIE:  Could we have that marked as the next exhibit  36 please.  37 MR. GRANT: He's in the middle of the answer.  38 MR. MACKENZIE:  He can finish his answer after we mark the  39 exhibit.  40  41 (EXHIBIT NO. 6 - REGISTRATION OF TRAPLINE  42 OF NEIL B. STERRITT DATED NOVEMBER 24, 1945)  43  44 MR. GRANT: You can go ahead with completing your answer.  45 THE WITNESS:  My description of that area is Four Mile Creek.  46 That's four miles out of Hazelton.  And it will be  47 down to the Bulkley River, and it will go up into 19  N.B. Sterritt (for Plaintiffs)  Cross Exam by Mr. Mackenzie  1 timber line, and the east boundary is what we call  2 Nine Mile Creek, and that goes into this — also it  3 goes into the river.  4 MR. MACKENZIE:  5 Q  You mentioned you have documents at home or a copy of  6 a registration.  7 A  The only document is the application of — to register  8 it, or the day I bought it the first time.  9 Q  Do you have that at home?  10 A  I think I have it at home.  11 Q  Could I ask you to bring it with you after lunch?  12 It's in Hazelton?  13 A  That's right.  14 Q  I ask you to provide that to your counsel, please, so  15 we can take a look at it. To the best of your  16 recollection is it the same as that exhibit?  Is it  17 the same as that Exhibit 6 which you are looking at?  18 A  Absolutely not.  I think it was just a receipt or  19 something like that that I had paid something, and  20 that's the reason I kept it, was a date on it and to  21 show that I did — I was in there before Ward  22 Marshall.  23 Q  Thanks.  24 (ADDITIONAL INFORMATION REQUESTED)  25 MR. GRANT:  And I would ask for copies of each of these exhibits  26 please.  27 THE WITNESS:  I would like to make a point that the description  28 on that I don't recognize at all, because in our way  29 of describing a place it was a very definite mark —  30 MR. MACKENZIE:  31 Q  You didn't read that when you signed it —  32 MR. GRANT:  Just let him finish.  33 THE WITNESS:  Well, I think probably at the time that the game  34 warden would have a map out there and with a lot of  35 that area surveyed off — as property lines, and  36 that's what he probably read off and showed to me.  37 But as I was saying, that we went too far. We should  38 not have crossed 9 Mile Creek.  Our territory was  3 9 between the two creeks.  40 MR.MACKENZIE:  41 Q  Who owned that territory? Which chief?  42 A  Well, actually I think right now it's Yagosip, and  43 which Yagosip originally is from Wii Gaak's house.  44 Q  I take it you didn't seek Yagosip's permission to trap  45 on that territory? You didn't ask Yagosip for  46 permission to trap on that territory, did you?  47 MR. GRANT:  When? 20  N.B. Sterritt (for Plaintiffs)  Cross Exam by Mr. Mackenzie  1 THE WITNESS:  When it was ~  2 Q  When you held the trapline.  3 A  The family, they are a part of our family.  The family  4 shares that territory.  5 Q  And after 1945 you completed several returns over the  6 next several years, didn't you, reporting on the furs  7 you took on the trapline?  8 A  Which? This one?  9 Q  Yes.  10 A  If I can remember right, I didn't take very much fur  11 out of there.  12 Q  But you signed a fur return each year, didn't you?  13 A  If I did, it would be a very small return, because —  14 I mean, it was — as I was saying, it was just a hobby  15 deal part-time, weekends.  16 Q  Can you recall signing the fur returns each year?  17 A  I beg your pardon?  18 Q  Can you recall signing the fur returns each year?  19 A  I can only say — as I was saying, I really don't  20 remember, if I can put it that way, because actually  21 that didn't mean very much to us reporting to the game  22 warden.  It's just going through the motions.  It's  23 not serious to us because that's our territory, and we  24 don't have, as far as we are concerned, we don't have  25 to make any reports to them. We are our own laws and  26 we are our own bosses.  27 Q  I am showing you a return of a registered trapline  28 holder dated August 20, 1938.  Can you identify your  29 signature on that document please?  30 MR. GRANT:  What document number is this from?  31 MR. MACKENZIE:  1977.  32 Q  Is that your signature?  33 A  That's right.  34  3 5 (EXHIBIT 7 - RETURN OF REGISTERED TRAPLINE  36 HOLDER DATED AUGUST 20, 1938 SIGNED BY MR.  37 N.B. STERRITT)  38  39 THE WITNESS:  Three martens and three weasels.  That's just  40 hobby.  41 MR. MACKENZIE:  42 Q  And those days you were also hunting on the weekends?  43 A  That's right.  44 Q  And you would pick up a hunting licence to do that?  45 A  Yes, I had — I picked up a hunting licence because I  46 was — I was taken off the Indian list, which the  47 D.I.A. cannot give the reason why they have taken me 21  N.B. Sterritt (for Plaintiffs)  Cross Exam by Mr. Mackenzie  1 off, and they have reinstated me.  And rather than  2 fight about it, it's so much easier just to go along  3 with it.  4 Q  I am showing you a handwritten document dated February  5 10, 1960.  Can you identify your handwriting and  6 signature on that document please?  7 MR. GRANT:  Is this listed?  8 MR. MACKENZIE:  Yes.  9 MR. GRANT:  Can you tell me the number please?  10 MR. MACKENZIE:  The document number is on the bottom of the  11 document.  12 MR. GRANT:  1960-26?  13 MR. MACKENZIE:  Yes.  14 MR. GRANT:  Provincial list?  15 MR. MACKENZIE:  Yes.  16 Q  Can you identify that as your handwriting?  17 A  That's right.  18 Q  And that's your signature?  19 A  Yes, that's right.  20  21 (EXHIBIT NO. 8 - FEBRUARY 10, 196 0  22 HANDWRITTEN DOCUMENT - NO. 1960-26)  23  24 Q  And this is the application for cancellation of the  25 registered trapline dated September 19, 1960?  26 A  Well, that will be to —  27 Q  Can you identify your signature on that please.  Is  28 that your signature?  29 A  That's right.  30  31 (EXHIBIT NO. 9 - APPLICATION FOR CANCELLATION  32 OF REGISTERED TRAPLINE DATED SEPTEMBER 19,  33 1960)  34  35 Q  So from what you have said, Mr. Sterritt, is it fair  36 to say that before 1984 you hadn't been trapping in  37 the Wii Gaak territory?  38 A  I have not, no.  39 Q  Okay.  Now, I would like to file as the next exhibit  40 an interrogatory or affidavit of Mr. Sterritt senior  41 dated January 28, 1987 and interrogatory 59C.  Just  42 going to — I'll read out that 59C.  I will also be  43 filing part of two maps which are schedule C to that  44 interrogatory.  45 MR. GRANT:  Do you have the edited version as you developed your  46 practice of the affidavit plus that question and  47 answer? 22  N.B. Sterritt (for Plaintiffs)  Cross Exam by Mr. Mackenzie  1 MR. MACKENZIE:  We don't have it right at this moment, but  2 that's what I propose to put in, the affidavit and  3 schedule C and 59C.  And that is 59C is:  4  5 "Q What are the boundaries of your House's  6 territory?  7 A My southern boundary is the trail from  8 Kisgegas to Bear Lake. We go up Shinlegoyte  9 ..."  10  11 S-h-i-n-1-e-g-o-y-t-e.  12  13 "... until we reach Sicintine ..."  14  15 S-i-c-i-n-t-i-n-c.  16  17 "... Lake."  18  19 MR.   GRANT:     Should be  Sicintine with  an  "e"  on the end.     That's  20 a typo.  21 MR. MACKENZIE:  22 "We go through the pass there and then to Gwis  23 Xsi Gungya Laa ..."  24  25 G-w-i-s, X-s-i, G-u-n-g-y-a, L-a-a.  26  27 "... until we come to Wii Xsi Gwin Gye Laa  28 ...  29  30 W-i-i, X-s-i, G-w-i-n, G-y-e, L-a-a.  31  32 "... to the headwaters.  It crosses the Sustut  33 River and up the east side of the Skeena River  34 to Xsi Gwin Kli Yun ..."  35  36 X-s-i, G-w-i-n, K-l-i, Y-u-n.  37  38 "... from the Skeena River, we go east on  39 the Xsuiax ..."  40  41 X-s-u-i-a-x.  42  43 "... until Gwis Lax Amaxit."  44  45 G-w-i-s, L-a-x, A-m-a-x-i-t.  46  47 "... we go to the Headwaters of Xsi Gwin 23  N.B. Sterritt (for Plaintiffs)  Cross Exam by Mr. Mackenzie  1 Hliyuun ..."  2  3 X-s-i, G-w-i-n, H-1-i-y-u-u-n.  4  5 "... and Xsi Lax Amaxit."  6  7 X-s-i, L-a-x, A-m-a-x-i-t.  8  9 "The approximate boundaries of my territory  10 are included in the map which is set out in  11 Schedule 'C except for my fishing  12 sites."  13  14 And so I'll mark the affidavit and the interrogatory  15 as the next exhibit.  16 MR. GRANT:  We will reserve that number until you have one that  17 has got that extract in it. And that would be Exhibit  18 10.  So Exhibit 10A would be the first map, which is  19 the northern territory, and Exhibit 10B would be the  20 second map, which is the southern territory.  21  22 (EXHIBIT 10 - AFFIDAVIT OF MR. STERRITT SENIOR  23 DATED JUNE 28, 1987)  24 (EXHIBIT 10A - MAP OF NORTHERN TERRITORY  25 ATTACHED TO SCHEDULE C OF INTERROGATORY)  26 (EXHIBIT 10B - MAP OF SOUTHERN TERRITORY  27 ATTACHED TO SCHEDULE C TO INTERROGATORY)  28  2 9 (PROCEEDINGS ADJOURNED)  3 0 (PROCEEDINGS RECONVENED)  31  3 2 MR. MACKENZIE:  33 Q  I am showing you a copy of a map of Wii Gaak's  34 territory dated May 13, 1987.  35 MR. GRANT: Could you just assist me by refreshing me as to  36 where this arises from? How did this get into your  37 possession?  38 MR. MACKENZIE: This was delivered to us by plaintiffs' counsel  39 in May, 1987, May or June, 1987.  40 MR. GRANT:  Without an interrogatory?  41 MR. MACKENZIE: Yes, that's correct.  I am not saying this is an  42 interrogatories map.  43 MR. GRANT:  Okay.  44 MR. MACKENZIE:  45 Q  I have placed this map dated May 13, 1987 in front of  46 you, and I simply want to ask you whether you had a  47 chance to see this before today. 24  N.B. Sterritt (for Plaintiffs)  Cross Exam by Mr. Mackenzie  1 A  Who are you asking, me or Peter?  2 Q  I am asking you.  3 A  Oh, thank you.  If I have seen these boundaries  4 before?  5 MR. GRANT:  This particular map or a copy of this particular  6 map.  7 MR. MACKENZIE:  8 Q  This map was produced by your lawyers, and I am just  9 asking you whether you had a chance to see it before  10 they sent it to us.  11 A  No, I don't think I have seen this one.  12 Q  So you didn't approve of this before it was sent to us  13 as far as you know?  14 MR. GRANT:  What do you mean approve of it?  15 THE WITNESS:  I have never seen this particular map.  16 MR. MACKENZIE:  17 Q  What I meant was examined it and okayed it.  18 MR. GRANT:  He says he doesn't think he has seen it.  I'll just  19 ask, just so I can find in my records, if you could  20 inform me of the date of delivery or give me a copy of  21 the transmittal letter regarding the — one or the  22 two —  23 MR. MACKENZIE:  We'll let you know later.  24 MR. GRANT:  I would like before I do my redirect.  I just want  25 to check that out in my office.  26 MR. MACKENZIE: In view of the fact that Mr. Sterritt can't  27 identify this map, I would request it be marked for  28 identification, since it was provided by counsel for  29 the plaintiffs to the defendants.  Someone may be able  30 to identify it.  31 MR. GRANT:  Can I just ask what is the point at this stage for  32 marking it for identification? Why would you —  33 MR. MACKENZIE:  Well, in the — well, the cross-examination  34 deals with the boundaries and the changing boundaries,  35 and this is another installment in the story of the  36 boundaries of Wii Gaak's territory.  37 MR. GRANT:  But this witness can't identify this map.  38 MR. MACKENZIE:  That's correct.  3 9 MR. GRANT:  So I am just wondering what's the point of marking  40 it for identification, that's all.  You are going to  41 ask questions out of this map, further questions?  42 MR. MACKENZIE:  Yes.  43 MR.   GRANT:     Then if   it's marked for   identification,   I  don't  44 object to  that.     Probably  should  get  the  next  45 sequential  number.     It should be marked as Exhibit A  46 for  identification.  47 25  N.B. Sterritt (for Plaintiffs)  Cross Exam by Mr. Mackenzie  1 (EXHIBIT NO. A FOR IDENTIFICATION - MAP DATED  2 MAY 13, 1987)  3  4 MR. MACKENZIE:  5 Q Before I start asking you about the Wii Gaak  6 territory, your father's name was Charles Sterritt,  7 wasn't it?  8 A That's right.  9 Q And he had some property up near Kispiox, didn't he?  10 A Private property you mean?  11 Q Yes.  12 A Yes.  13 Q He sold that to Pete Muldoe, didn't he?  14 A That's right.  15 Q He also had a territory up near Kispiox on the Skeena,  16 didn't he, near 9 Mile Mountain?  17 A That's right.  18 Q And his name — his chiefs name was Haaxw, was it not?  19 A Haaxw.  20 Q And you and your brother Walter used to hunt in that  21 territory, didn't you?  22 A That's right.  23 Q Yes.  Who took the name Haaxw after your father passed  24 away?  25 A His nephew, Charlie Olson.  26 Q Does Charlie claim that territory up in the 9 Mile  27 area mountain now?  28 A Well, Charlie is deceased.  29 Q Who took the name after Charlie passed away?  30 A Bud Mathews.  I think William is his right name.  We  31 call him Bud Mathews William.  32 Q Is Bud claiming that land up there?  33 A That's right.  34 Q And Bud now holds the name Haaxw?  35 A Haaxw.  36 Q And there is one boundary of that Haaxw territory, I  37 take it, is the Skeena, is it not, the eastern  38 boundary — correction, western boundary?  39 A That's the west boundary.  That's right.  40 Q And just to get it clear on the record, you have  41 mentioned Ward Marshall several times, and he's been a  42 friend of yours most of your life, is that correct?  43 A That's right.  44 Q And he's a white gentleman?  45 A That's right.  46 Q Yes. During your — you said that you worked for many  47 years logging, and I take it you had employees working 26  N.B. Sterritt (for Plaintiffs)  Cross Exam by Mr. Mackenzie  1 for you on those logging operations?  2 A  That's right.  3 Q  And you had timber licences with the provincial  4 government to get the timber?  5 A  I think I did on the first part.  Now, I'll explain  6 this to you why I'm not too sure.  Some of the areas I  7 worked belong to a Bell Pole was the name of some of  8 the companies that owned the areas that were worked  9 on.  10 Q  So I take it you were contracting for Bell Pole on  11 some of those territories?  12 A  It was Hanson Lumber and Timber Company originally.  13 Q  Now, Mr. Sterritt, before you started trapping on the  14 Wii Gaak territory in 1984, had you visited that  15 territory before that?  16 A  Oh, we have been up there regular on that end hunting.  17 Q  And the south part of the territory or the north part?  18 A  It will be more or less sort of a corner southwest.  19 Q  Is that around Sicintine?  20 A  No.  21 Q  Further south, Shelagyote?  22 A  We are actually — Wii Gaak has a trail out from  23 Kisgegas, and it goes up An Makhl they call it, and  24 this in the olden days, if you're going to put a trail  25 through somebody's territory, you get their permission  26 and you use it as a trail only. And Wii Gaak did  27 this, take a short cut up into the sort of southwest  28 corner of his territory.  Now, this trail, which I  29 think I have described on a part of the territory, it  30 goes up into the mountains, Tsim An Makhl, where you  31 go through sort of a valley and you cut over a pass  32 down in towards Shelagyote. Now this trail continues  33 right on up to Sicintine, and it goes through the  34 valley of Tsuusgwim Xsi Gwin Gyila'a, which flows more  35 or less south. That's a tributary of Xsi Gwin  36 Gyila'a.  37 Q  So it would flow into north into Xsi Gwin Gyila'a?  38 A  Well yeah, it flows towards Xsi Gwin Gyila'a.  3 9 Q  And then that flows into the Sustut or the Skeena?  40 A  No, this flows — this Xsi Gwin Gyila'a, it flows  41 north instead into Wii Xsi Gwin Gyila'a.  So that pass  42 is where the trail goes through down onto Wii Gaak's,  43 where he lived on the north side of the Sustut River.  44 Q  He had a cabin at the confluence of the Sustut and the  45 Skeena?  46 A  There is a cabin, it's about a half mile or three  47 quarter of a mile going north on the Skeena.  There is 27  N.B. Sterritt (for Plaintiffs)  Cross Exam by Mr. Mackenzie  1 sort of a low land closer to Sustut, so they go up on  2 the height of land.  I was there when my father had a  3 cabin there.  He was trapping with my brother, and  4 that's where Wii Gaak's, that's where they usually  5 camp and work out from there.  So in this area I am  6 talking about, that was the height of land, between  7 the height of land between Wii Gaak and Tsabux..  And  8 so we used to go into it to hunt goat and moose around  9 in that area.  So it's for years and years we have a  10 cabin up in that area.  11 Q  Is that in the Tsim Gwi Dagantwit area?  12 A  No, I think Tsim Gwi Dagantwit is — no.  That's near  13 Sicintine you are talking about.  14 Q  Are you north or south of that?  15 A  We are south.  16 Q  Yes.  17 A  We are near — as I was saying, we are near the  18 southwest boundary —  19 Q  I understand.  20 A  — of Wii Gaak. And we have been around there for  21 years.  22 Q  When you say "we", who are you speaking about?  23 A  Neil, the other sons, friends of mine, McLean's.  They  24 come from Kisgegas.  25 Q  Joshua McLean?  26 A  And then Billy and then —  27 MR. GRANT: Just a moment.  Are you finished?  28 THE WITNESS: That's right.  29 MR. MACKENZIE:  30 Q  Thomas Wright had a trapline down there, did he not?  31 A  Thomas Wright was trapping on Wii Gaak's territory,  32 and he marked out an area as a trapline. That's Wii  33 Gaak's territory that he was trapping on.  Even though  34 his name was Guuhadak, which is a name of his own  35 House.  Daniel Wii Gaak was his uncle, and when Daniel  36 died, '24, Thomas's oldest brother, Simon Wright, took  37 the name Wii Gaak.  38 Q  And then Simon died about 1966?  39 A  '66 I think it is, that's right.  40 Q  And then who took the name after that?  41 A  His nephew, Kenny Campbell.  42 Q  And is Kenny still alive?  43 A  No, Kenny died in 1973.  44 Q  So what happened between 1973 and 1982?  45 A  I was asked at the time, and one of my biggest reasons  46 that I take it is the feelings of the people in my  47 House.  Jack Wright was one. 28  N.B. Sterritt (for Plaintiffs)  Cross Exam by Mr. Mackenzie  1 Q  Ax Moogasxw?  2 A  Ax Moogasxw.  He was next to Simon Wright.  A very  3 fine fellow, but a little quick tempered, and that's  4 why he was passed up the first time to Kenny Campbell.  5 And as a rule that's usually what they will do, they  6 will go to the younger fellow.  So my feelings for him  7 prevented me from really — that was my biggest what  8 you call — I felt for him.  He would like the name,  9 and he was quite capabable of looking after the  10 territory.  He knows the territory.  They lived on the  11 territory.  And so I just left it at that.  And so  12 when he died I had to take it.  13 MR. GRANT:  Just to be clear.  When Jack died?  14 THE WITNESS:  No, Jack was bedridden.  15 MR. GRANT:  You said "When he died".  16 THE WITNESS:  That was Jack, yes.  And that's in 1982, something  17 like that.  18 MR. MACKENZIE:  19 Q  Well, Jack didn't take the name, though, did he?  20 A  No, he did not, but he acted — you can do that.  He  21 is pretty high up, and he was in care of everything.  22 He is in charge of everything.  23 Q  He was looking after the territory?  24 A  Oh, definitely. Well, all chiefs look after it.  25 Q  Well, no one was holding the name Wii Gaak during  26 those years?  27 A  No.  28 Q  All right.  And Jack was bedridden in those years?  29 A  No.  No.  I meant — I thought he said Thomas.  3 0 Q  Oh, yes.  31 A  You see the reason, Thomas was there too, you see.  I  32 think Thomas is next to Jack.  33 Q  Thomas was Guuhadak?  34 A  Guuhadak.  So as I was saying, you trapped in there.  35 So he's the brother — actually we are all the same  36 family.  37 Q  Thomas was saying that the members of the House of  38 Guuhadak are the same of the House of Wii Gaak.  Is  3 9 that true?  40 A  It's very close to being the same. The same as you  41 see originally — I think I should explain it to you.  42 One of our first villages was Gitangas.  That's about  43 eight miles south of Sustut goes into the Skeena,  44 except the main village is on the west bank of the  45 Skeena.  I have been through there — I was through  46 there twice with horses, and then I have been there  47 with a helicopter.  I know exactly where this 29  N.B. Sterritt (for Plaintiffs)  Cross Exam by Mr. Mackenzie  1 territory is.  So there was a lot of people living in  2 that area at that time, and I think there was a close  3 family of Lax Gibuu.  Because Niist, Guuhadak and Wii  4 Gaak were very close, and their territories are in  5 that area, and also Nii Kyap.  6 Q  Where is Guuhadak's territory?  7 A  Actually I'm not sure where Guuhadak's territory is,  8 because Thomas trapped — it's easier to say that he  9 trapped in that — in from the south boundary up to  10 the Sicintine most of his life.  11 Q  In Wii Gaak's territories?  12 A  In Wii Gaak's territory.  13 Q  And Nii Kyap had some territory on the Squingula,  14 didn't he?  15 A  On the which?  16 Q  Squingula.  17 A  Squingula?  18 Q  Yes.  19 A  Yes. West — it will be west of the Xsi Gwin Gyila'a  20 area and west of our territory.  21 Q  That was 0 Yee?  Is that his name?  22 A  0 Yee.  And Joshua McLean is 0 Yee today.  23 Q  Oh, yes.  Does Joshua McLean have that territory  24 between the Squingula and the Sustut?  25 A  Between the Squingula and the Sustut? No.  No.  There  26 is a corner.  I could say, you know, if you could see  27 our boundary, there is a corner that between us and  28 their lake, that's Nii Kyap and 0 Yee and them,  29 because as I was saying again, that some of these  30 territories, the Lax Gibuu I was telling you, the Lax  31 Gibuu that come from Gitangas.  Like Wii Gaak and Nii  32 Kyap came out from the same House, Tsim Gaak.  33 THE INTERPRETER: T-s-i-m space G-a-a-k.  34 THE WITNESS: That was the House.  That means a Raven House. And  3 5 it went and it got too big. They split up.  So today  36 at feasts Nii Kyap and I sit side by side.  He sits on  37 my left side. We still recognize that we have come  38 from the same House and we are Lax. Gibuu's.  3 9 Q  That's Gitanmaax?  40 A  Any Feast House.  He sits on my left and his House  41 would sit on his left and some to his front.  My House  42 sit on my left and in front.  And actually in the old  43 House when you had the beams running down the centre  44 of a Long House, at the back we sit right under that  45 beam.  He's on one side and I'm on the other side and  46 we sit right underneath. And this is how close,  47 Guuhadak, Niist, Nii Kyap and Wii Gaak were that 30  N.B. Sterritt (for Plaintiffs)  Cross Exam by Mr. Mackenzie  1  2  3  4  5  Q  6  7  A  8  Q  9  10  A  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  Q  21  22  A  23  Q  24  A  25  Q  26  A  27  28  29  Q  30  31  A  32  33  Q  34  A  35  Q  36  37  A  38  Q  39  A  40  Q  41  42  A  43  44  45  Q  46  A  47  Q  close, and so a lot of our territories were adjoining.  It is not a big deal.  And like 0 Yee used to trap  with Thomas up in the Sicintine area.  He knows that.  That is Joshua McLean.  So you were hunting mostly down in the southwestern  part of the territory?  Southwestern corner, that's right.  Did you have a chance to travel up into the other  parts of the territory?  No, I have never had a chance to get up there.  I  mean, it's getting so when I was in there for the two  years I was on a snow mobile.  First year I was all by  myself and you had canyons there to get into, and I  couldn't take a chance of getting down where I  couldn't get back up.  We are in the mountains.  And  the second year we almost got up to where — if we  ever get into Xsi Gwin Gyila'a, we could look over  right to Sicintine and probably to the Skeena.  That's  how easy it would be.  So can you agree with me there is no roads going into  any of that territory right now?  Now?  Yes.  There is going to be roads going in.  But right now there is no roads going in?  No.  No.  Well, actually there is one almost to the  Babine River west of Kisgegas.  There is a  construction — there is a big construction company.  And north of the Sustut there is no roads going in  there either?  There is a railroad going through our territory there  from Birdflat to Xsi Gwin Hliiyuun.  That's the B.C.R.?  B» C • R •  Most people get in there by — they fly in by float  plane, don't they?  Float plane.  They have a lodge there on the Sustut.  That's a fishing lodge on the Sustut?  Fishing lodge.  And are you aware also of the Guide Outfitters camp up  there in Birdflat, Igor Steciw's camp?  We flew over with a helicopter and we saw a cabin up  in there, and that's — and we didn't go down to rob  an eagle.  Do you know about the Collingwood Camp at Motase Lake?  Oh, that's Xsi Mootixwit you mean?  Yes. 31  N.B. Sterritt (for Plaintiffs)  Cross Exam by Mr. Mackenzie  1 A  No, I am not aware of any outfit in there.  2 Q  Now, in your affidavit you spoke about people who had  3 given you information about the territory, and those  4 people are all deceased now, are they not?  5 A  Yes.  Maybe you want to look at — not all — because  6 I have talked to Joshua McLean, but whether I named  7 Joshua or not I'm not sure.  8 Q  Now, just looking at paragraph four of your affidavit.  9 I think all those people you list there are deceased,  10 are they not? You say that in the third last  11 sentence.  12 MR. GRANT:  While the witness is looking at that, I may say for  13 the record that I think that is — I'll let the  14 witness answer that, but because of the objections  15 about hearsay that were raised by both defendants, in  16 particular the provincial defendants, no references  17 were made in this paragraph of information as to  18 living witnesses.  As we anticipated, there would be  19 objections on the basis of hearsay, and the ruling on  20 reputation made by the Chief Justice was based on  21 information from those who are deceased.  22 MR. MACKENZIE:  Yes, I understand that.  23 Q  So I guess my question is, all those people you named  24 are deceased?  25 A  That's right.  26 Q  Are there other people that you spoke to about the Wii  27 Gaak territory that would have told you about the  28 boundaries that are still living?  29 A  Well, yes. Wagil Wii.  30 Q  That's David Green?  31 A  David Green.  32 Q  And he's in Lax Gibuu?  33 A  That's right.  He's in the House of Wii Gaak.  And  3 4 Joshua McLean.  35 Q  And he's in Nii Kyap?  36 A  He's in Nii Kyap's.  He's trapped with Thomas Wright  37 up in — up as far as Sicintine. He's alive.  38 Q  Where is David Green's area of knowledge?  39 A  I beg your pardon?  40 Q  Where is David Green's special area of knowledge for  41 the territory?  42 A  A lot of it is on the south — on the south end and up  43 into Sicintine, although I think they travel a lot.  I  44 mean, that was — that was — my knowledge originally,  45 which I was quite clear on, was the Xsu Wii Ax area,  46 because that's where my father, my brother — in fact  47 two brothers.  Percy is a half-brother.  He is my 32  N.B. Sterritt (for Plaintiffs)  Cross Exam by Mr. Mackenzie  1 father in the first marriage son.  And I got  2 information from — well, Percy is still alive, and he  3 trapped in Xsi Wii Ax.  And when I went in there the  4 first time I took my father, Walter and Percy in  5 there, had four horses to pack in.  That was in the  6 fall in September.  7 Q  What year was that?  8 A  I would say probably around '30 or something like that  9 in that — one way or the other.  I — and on the way  10 in you don't go very far on a day with horses, packs,  11 you probably do 12, 14 miles a day, and Billy Bird and  12 Johnny Moore caught up to us, and they had Sam Hope  13 with them to look after their horses on the way back.  14 So when we got to Xsu Wii Ax there was — I could see  15 there was three — and then there was two.  There was  16 five were going to stay there and trap.  And that's  17 when I first went in there and went in there by trail  18 and stayed at Xsu Wii Ax for a couple of days, and  19 took a walk down and up the Xsu Wii Ax — when I say  20 Xsu Wii Ax, that's Sustut.  21 Q  And then —  22 A  So as I way was saying, so that's the area that we  23 were involved in mostly.  They were saying that on the  24 backs of the Skeena about approximately maybe three  25 quarter of a mile up from the mouth of the Sustut,  26 that's where Wii Gaak's and our camp were, and from  27 there you work out.  So I was quite familiar with  28 those places.  29 When I got the name, Thomas was the most logical  30 person to talk to, and of course David and Johnny —  31 Johnny Moore was my uncle, married to my aunt, and he  32 also trapped in there on the Xsu Wii Ax territory, and  33 he explained to me that him and the Billy Bird are  34 trapping together.  They went east on the Sustut and  35 then they climbed up Xsi Wii Lax Amaawxwit, that  36 creek, Birdflats Creek.  He said we went up there and  37 circled around to the head of Xsi Gwin Gyilaa'a —  38 that's in our territory — late in the fall.  39 We trapped beavers there. He said it's the first  40 time I'd ever seen anybody trapping through the ice.  41 He said we got snowed in there. He said I packed a  42 pair of snow shoes in.  Billy Bird built himself —  43 made himself a pair of snow shoes. And I asked him, I  44 said, "Now, did you come down Xsi Gwin Gyilaa'a?" He  45 said "No." He said we went back the same way, go back  46 down Birdflats Creek, which is Xsu Wii Lax Amaawxwit,  47 down to the Sustut and then down to where they were 33  N.B. Sterritt (for Plaintiffs)  Cross Exam by Mr. Mackenzie  1 camped with us or my father at the mouth of — which  2 we have called the mouth of the Sustut, which is a  3 mile north.  4 Q  Where is the eastern boundary of that northern  5 territory?  6 A  Eastern boundary?  7 Q  Yes.  8 A  Birdflats Creek, Xsu Wii Lax Amaawxwit. And it's a  9 prominent creek and there shouldn't be any mistake  10 about that. And also there is a trail that continues  11 on through Bear Lake and goes up there and goes north.  12 It pretty well follows our boundary.  It goes north.  13 It's a common trail for people.  14 Q  Did you ever know Abel Sampson?  15 A  That's right, I know Abel Sampson.  16 Q  What was his chief's name? Do you know?  17 A  Well, Abel is Nii Kyap.  Am I right? I think Nii  18 Kyap.  But Abel is Haimadim now I think.  Am I right?  19 Would you know?  20 MR. GRANT:  He can't answer.  21 THE WITNESS:  Haimadim, I think, is the name.  22 MR. GRANT:  Tell him if you know, and you don't have to guess,  23 though, if you can't remember.  24 THE WITNESS:  Yes.  25 MR. MACKENZIE:  26 Q  Well, do you know — did you speak to Abel Sampson  27 about the territory at any time?  28 A  Not Abel, no.  29 Q  Wii Gaak territory?  30 A  No, I never talked to Abel about it.  31 Q  Do you know whether he is knowledgable about that  32 territory up there in the north in the Sustut?  33 A  No, I can't say, because I have never talked to him.  34 I cannot speak for him, unless I talk to him.  35 Q  Do you know where Red Creek is?  36 A  Which?  37 Q  Red Creek?  38 A  Red?  39 Q  Red Creek.  40 A  R-e-d?  41 Q  Yes.  Just east of the Birdflat Creek.  42 A  No, I don't.  43 Q  No?  44 A  The only one I know of and familiar with is Birdflat,  45 because that's what we were told right from the  46 beginning.  47 Q       In February,  1976  apparently Abel  Sampson advised Neil 34  N.B. Sterritt (for Plaintiffs)  Cross Exam by Mr. Mackenzie  1 John Sterritt that those areas east of Birdflat Creek,  2 Red Creek, for example, were in Wii Gaak, Lax. Gibuu,  3 Kisgegas territory.  Do you agree with that?  4 MR. GRANT:  Just don't answer that.  That's — Abel Sampson is  5 one of the witnesses that you are entitled to cross  6 examine.  The Chief Justice made it clear that there  7 is no point in putting the evidence of one witness to  8 another witness.  9 MR. MACKENZIE:  Well, he hasn't given the evidence yet.  10 MR. GRANT:  You are putting a statement of one witness, of one  11 perspective witness to another witness.  12 MR. MACKENZIE:  No, I am not.  13 MR. GRANT:  He is giving — yes, you are.  You are asking if he  14 agrees with what Abel Sampson says.  15 MR. MACKENZIE:  No, I am just checking to see whether this  16 information in the field notes is correct.  17 MR. GRANT:  Well, of course you have Mr. Neil John Sterritt that  18 you are going to have an opportunity to cross examine  19 on those field notes.  20 MR. MACKENZIE:  21 Q  Okay.  Well, as far as you are concerned Birdflat  22 Creek is the east boundary of your territory?  23 A  That's the east boundary.  24 Q  And your House, Wii Gaak, does not claim any territory  25 east of Birdflat Creek?  26 A  No.  27 Q  No.  Now, Mr. Sterritt, just talk about the territory  28 again.  Can you tell me —  29 MR. GRANT:  The Wii Gaak territory?  30 MR. MACKENZIE:  The Wii Gaak territory.  31 MR. GRANT:  The southern one, I gather.  32 MR. MACKENZIE:  33 Q  I am talking about the southern —  34 A  An Gil Gilanos?  35 Q  Yes, that's right.  I want to ask you about that  36 creek, that Squingula River.  37 A  Xsi Gwin Gyilaa'a?  38 Q  Yes.  39 A  That's — Xsi Gwin Gyilaa'a is not in that territory.  40 There is a mountain range there. The Sicintine  41 mountains, I think you call them, they are north. Xsi  42 Gwin Gyilaa'a is north of that.  43 Q  That's right. And it flows into the Sustut, correct?  44 You remember that?  45 A  No, it flows — the Xsi Gwin Gyilaa'a flows into the  46 Skeena.  47 Q  Yes, I'm sorry, flows into the Skeena.  Is that Xsi 35  N.B. Sterritt  Cross Exam by  (for Plaintiffs)  Mr. Mackenzie  1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  Gwin Gyilaa'a River a boundary of Wii Gaak's  territory?  A boundary?  Yes.  A very small portion near Dam Xsi Mootixwit, where you  come up and hit that, and we would go east on that.  We would hit Dam Xsi Mootixwit.  It's a very small  cross the Sustut about three miles south  Creek. We are going west about three  cross it.  Squingula River — Squingula River  in your Wii Gaak territory?  portion. We  of Birdflats  miles and we  Yes. So has  downstream is  That's Wii Gaak's  Yes.  Always been  territory,  in Wii Gaak's  territory?  territory.  area  was owned  Do you know  River?  by  Always been in Wii Gaak's  Well, I was wondering whether that  Kate Jackson and Freddie Jackson.  anything about that, the Squingula  No, I don't.  Do you know — sorry. Do you know if Thomas Wright or  the Lax Seel people owned any — Lax Seel people owned  any land in that territory, in your Wii Gaak  territory?  MR. GRANT: You mean —  THE WITNESS: No, they  MR. MACKENZIE:  wouldn't own  any in our territory,  who Xsim Xsan was, Thomas  say that I can remember  Q  What about — did you know  Wright's father?  A  I don't think I — I can't  that I knew him.  Q  In Neil John Sterritt's field notes on April 1, 1986  there is an indication, apparently, that you had  spoken to Thomas Wright, and he told you that Kate  Jackson owned the land at Xsi Gwin Gyilaa'a, and that  Freddie Jackson is the one who should own it now. Did  you have that conversation with Thomas Wright?  A  You mean Thomas Wright said that?  Q  Yes, to you.  A  And I repeated it?  Q  Yes.  A  I am not too sure if I could remember that, because I  have had a lot of conversations day in and day out  with Thomas, and I mean I can only take so many, half  an hour, an hour, because he was an old man,  bedridden, and —  Q  Okay. There is another comment here. 36  N.B. Sterritt (for Plaintiffs)  Cross Exam by Mr. Mackenzie  1 "Jessie Sterritt said the mountain near Xsi  2 Gwin Gyilaa belongs to Xsim Xsan, Thomas  3 Wright's father."  4  5 Did you ever hear about that? Do you recall making  6 that statement?  7 MR. GRANT:  Just let him have a chance to look at the note.  8 It's the highlighted portion to this page?  9 MR. MACKENZIE:  Yes.  10 MR. GRANT:  The completion of that note is:  11  12 "Neil B. wasn't specific as to which mountain  13 they are referring."  14  15 That's with reference to that last statement you  16 made.  17 MR. MACKENZIE:  Yes, that's right.  18 Q  Do you recall those conversations that Mr. Sterritt —  19 MR. GRANT: With Thomas?  20 MR. MACKENZIE:  21 Q  With Thomas or Jessie Sterritt.  22 A  As I was saying, I had a lot of conversations with  23 what's his name, and some of them that — you do not  24 cross examine an older person, and it's just — and he  25 will do the best. And I find a lot of very accurate  26 and some that you may be — as I was saying, I  27 wouldn't cross examine him if I thought he was right  28 or wrong.  You don't do that.  He's a chief and he's  2 9 an elder, and not only that, he's in bed.  30 Q  Yes.  I understand that.  31 MR. GRANT:  That's from volume 14, is it? You have got a volume  32 14.  Is that volume 14 of his notebooks?  33 MR. MACKENZIE:  Yes.  34 THE WITNESS: You see, there are mountains east of our boundary  35 that is going south, Xsi Gwin Gyilaa'a. There are  36 mountains east of us which could be what we are  37 talking about.  I don't know.  I am only guessing.  38 Q  Lax Anxsan, do you know that one?  39 A  No.  40 Q  Okay.  I want to —  41 A  There is a small range of mountains, not very high, I  42 have been on them.  43 Q  I guess — one of the reasons I am asking you these  44 questions is that on your — on the map, which is  45 10 — Exhibit 10B to your interrogatories, it showed  46 that Nii Kyap owned the territory along the Squingula  47 River. 37  N.B. Sterritt (for Plaintiffs)  Cross Exam by Mr. Mackenzie  1 A  East of us.  They owned a very —  2 Q  Right up to the river it looked like.  3 A  Which river?  4 Q  Squingula River.  5 MR. GRANT:  This is 10B?  6 MR. MACKENZIE:  Yes.  7 Q  We are looking at 10B now.  I just wanted to point  8 this out to you here.  It shows that Nii Kyap owned  9 the land right up to the Squingula River, and I'm just  10 wondering about —  11 A  No — well, actually if you're talking about Xsi Gwin  12 Gyilaa'a —  13 MR. GRANT:  For the record —  14 THE WTITNESS:   I'm not sure that I recognize the map, but I do  15 know that east of us is Nii Kyap, east of our  16 territory, and our territory takes in Dam Xsi  17 Mootixwit.  18 MR. MACKENZIE:  19 Q  Just to make this point again.  Remember you said  20 the — remember you said the Squingula River flows  21 into the Skeena?  22 A  That's right.  23 Q  Yes.  24 MR. GRANT:  For the record, of course Exhibit 10B that you are  25 referring to is a draft map that was delivered at the  26 time —  27 MR. MACKENZIE:  It's a draft, yes.  28 Q  At any rate, right now as far as you are concerned the  29 lower Squingula River is completely within Wii Gaak's  30 territory?  31 A  That's right, Tsuusxwim Xsi Gwin Gyilaa'a and Wii Xsi  32 Gwin Gyilaa'a and Dam Xsi Mootixwit and the  33 headwaters.  34 Q  We looked briefly at this Exhibit 10B, but did you  35 have a chance to see that when you signed your  36 affidavit in January, 1987?  37 MR. GRANT:  I think for the record that that would have been —  38 MR. MACKENZIE:  39 Q  And the interrogatories affidavit.  Let me give you a  40 copy of that again.  It's Exhibit 10.  Here it is  41 right here. Do you see that?  42 MR. GRANT: Don't answer yet. Go ahead.  43 MR. MACKENZIE:  44 Q  We are going to be breaking very shortly.  I just  45 wanted to ask you whether you had a chance to see the  46 maps that were attached when you signed your  47 affidavit? 38  N.B. Sterritt (for Plaintiffs)  Cross Exam by Mr. Mackenzie  1 A  On this one?  2 Q  Yes.  Exhibit 10.  3 MR. GRANT:  These are the maps that are referreo to in 59C.  4 THE WITNESS:   Is this the one where I sort of aescribeo more or  5 less where the southern part — where we walk through  6 more or less?  7 MR. MACKENZIE:  8 Q  Yes.  9 A  Yes.  Well, no.  So then it's — yes, there is some  L0 pretty broad statements there, because there is more  LI than one trail between Kisgegas and Bear Lake.  L2 Q  Dio you have a chance to look at the maps by any  L3 chance when you signed the affidavit?  14 A  I am not sure of that map there, whether that tits my  L5 description that I have given them.  I'm not sure it  L6 that fits the aescription that I have given to the  L7 boundaries of our territory.  But actually what 1 nave  L8 describee here is just more or less going through the  L9 rivers and up through the north to the northern  20 territory.  It really does give no boundaries.  21 Q  In your 59C interrogatory, 59C that you are looking at  22 there, you see the reference there to scheaule C, the  13 maps in schedule C?  24 A  Approximate boundaries.  25 Q  That's right.  This is a draft map.  Dio you have a  26 chance to check the maps, 10A ano B, when you signea  27 the affidavit, which is Exhibit 10 you have there?  28 MR. GRANT: Just before he answers —  29 MR. MACKENZIE:  Yes.  50 MR. GRANT:  — that affidavit was sworn by Ms. Manoell, ano or  51 course I wasn't the one swearing it.  I have no ooubt  52 that that map — the maps that were tenaerea to the  53 witness at the time.  Anything else is suggesting that  54 there was some level of — and I'm not suggesting you  55 are doing this in any malicious way, but it would  56 suggest that there is some fabrication, in the sense  57 that the witness would be swearing an affidavit  58 referring to an exhibit which he aidn't see, and that,  59 of course, was not the practice of counsel on the  10 case.  I was not, of course, present when this one was  LI sworn.  The witness may or may not recall this map,  12 that's one question, but I want to be very, very clear  13 that if there is a reference to an appendix to the  14 interrogatories, then of course counsel's practice  15 would be to show that appendix to the person swearing  \6 the affidavit.  17    MR. MACKENZIE:  Okay. 39  N.B. Sterritt (for Plaintiffs)  Cross Exam by Mr. Mackenzie  1 Q  But you can't recall one way or the other?  2 A  I think my answer to that is I had looked at so many  3 maps that I can't recall whether this is the exact map  4 that I had looked at.  5 Q  When you say that it was the approximate boundaries,  6 do you recall checking to see whether in tact you were  7 generally satisfied with the maps that were being  8 given?  9 A      I  can't  really —  as   I was  saying again,   I  can't  0 really  just  recall  the exact  thing,   but as   I was  1 saying,   that we were  looking at maps and trying  to  get  2 the  territories  right,   ano  there was no ooubt   I must  3 have looked at  something.  4 Q       Right.     Do you  recall meeting with Louise Manaell   to  5 swear  that  affiaavit?  6 A      That's  the  gal   that works for you in your  office?  7 MR.   GRANT:       No,   she's a  lawyer  from Vancouver.  8 THE WITNESS:        Oh,   yes.  9 MR. GRANT: But it was in my office.  She was in my office.  ,0 MR. MACKENZ IE:  1 Q  Did you see her in your office or at your home?  2 A  No, it was the office.  3 MR. GRANT:  There is another woman lawyer in my oifice.  ne may  4 have thought it was her.  ;5 MR. MACKENZIE:  6        Q  Well, can I say, then, that you are not too sure nov.  :7 whether this is an accurate map?  I am talking about  8 10B.  9 A  No, I can't say it's an accurate map, no, because  0 approximate is approximate, but not accurate.  1 MR. MACKENZIE:  I guess we shoulo have a break now.  2  3 (PROCEEDINGS  ADJOURNED)  4 (PROCEEDINGS  RECONVENED AFTER LUNCHEON   kECi^j  5  6 MR.   MACKENZIE:     Mrs.   Sampson  is here,   as  I  unoerstana  it,   to  7 help us with  the word spelling,   and this morning Mr.  8 Neil  Sterritt  junior  was assisting us with the word  9 speller.  t0        Q  Mr. Sterritt, you said that you first went into the  ,1 territory about 1930 with the horses, is that correct?  2 A  That's right.  3 Q  When was the next time that you were up there?  4 A  Up in that area, I think it was 1985 or 'b4.  5 Q  Was that when you were starting your trapping  16 operation?  ,1 A  No.  No.  We were just in there looking over the 40  N.B. Sterritt (for Plaintiffs)  Cross Exam by Mr. Mackenzie  the  northern  lor  you ana  the  no  one else  lias  ce  the 1940'  S."  in  there  1 territory.  2 Q       Did you  go  in by   helicopter  the second time?  3 A      That's  right.  4 Q  Yes.  And after 1984 or 1985 were you in there the  5 next year trapping, I guess?  6 A  That's on the southern?  7 Q  On the southern part, yes.  8 A  That's southeast corner there.  9 Q  You haven't haa a chance to get up to  L0 part since 1985?  LI A  No, I haven't.  12 Q  And can you agree with me that except  13 work you did in there in the eighties,  14 been trapping in the northern part sin  15 A  I'm not sure when the last person was  16 trapping.  17 Q  Do you have any iaea who that person might have been?  18 A  No — who the last people would be there trapping?  19 Q  Yes.  20 A  Well, in our family my brother Walter trappea there  21 after my father had quit, but he trapped with George  22 Wilson, and he trappea with Charlie Olson ana, I  23 think, from our family.  When I say — actually  24 when — when I talk about Wii Gaak, talk about our  25 immediate family and our mother's sioe, ana I woulan't  26 know if Simon or Jack or Henry woula have been in  27 there.  I mean, there was nothing to stop tnem trom  28 going in there and doing some trapping.  29 Q  And you were in territory with your father, Charles  30 Sterritt, in that 1930 trip, were you not?  31 A  That's right.  32 Q  I guess that was the only time you went in there with  33 him; is that fair to say?  34 A  On foot.  35 Q  Dio you go in any other way with him?  36 A  No.  You go up the Telegraph Line.  37 Q  Oh, yes.  38 A      You go  up the Telegraph Line.     But they  have also  come  39 out  the  trail   I  described to you rrom Xsu Wii  Ax  40 across —  when  I  say  Xsu Wii Ax,   Xsu Wii  Ax  41 territory —  across  Xsu Wii  Ax across Xsi  Gwin  42 Gyilaa'a and  aown  or more  or less  down towards  43 Sicintine,   Ts'uuswam  Xsi  Gwin Gyilaa'a and Xsi  owin  44 Gyilaa'a.     That  goes —  there's a valley   that  goes —  45 Q      We were speaking  about  the  trail  coming  aown  over   the  46 Sustut  ana down the  Squingula  towards  the Sicintine.  47 A      Across  the  Sicintine  down Xsi  Hli  Gyoowit ana  back  up 41  N.B. Sterritt (for Plaintiffs)  Cross Exam by Mr. Mackenzie  1 that mountain I was telling you about and goes right  2 into Kisgegas.  They have often come out — I know  3 that Willie Smart, who is my brother-in-law, my  4 father, Charles Sterritt and Walter Sterritt, they  5 came out that way once.  So then you climb up in the  6 mountain on Luu An Maxhl.  7 MR. GRANT:  Can you go on with your answer if you weren't  8 finished.  9 THE WITNESS:     And when you  get  up at  the top of   the mountain,  10 that's  the  divide.     And  the  trail,   Wii Gaak's  trail,  11 it  goes  straight —  almost  straight oown to Kisgegas.  12 MR. MACKENZIE:  13 Q  You say Charlie came out there at least once with  14 those other two people?  15 A  My brother and Willie Smart.  16 Q  Yes.  17 A  And then years later when Charlie Olson ana Walter  18 were there, and I was talking to Charlie Olson berore  19 he died, and he told me they came out that way too.  x  20 asked him how long did it take Charlie, and I think he  21 said an overnight trip.  They were young.  They  22 travel.  23 Q  So in the 1930 trip you came out the other way, oio  24 you?  25 A  Well, the horses you got to come up the Telegraph  26 Line.  You go up the Skeena, up the Telegraph Line ana  27 about quarter ways past fourth you turn oft the  28 Telegraph Line and you take the trail that goes up  29 towards Xsu Wii Ax on the west side of the Skeena  30 River.  You travel on the west side 'til you get  31 opposite our territory, and you cross right where the  32 cabin is.  There is a canoe there.  33 Q  And dio you ever have the opportunity to travel on the  34 territory with Martha Sinclair?  35 A  No, I didn't, but I had a talk with her.  36 Q  Oh, yes.  37 A  I had a talk with her because she was a cnila, Simon  38 Gunanoot, when he was hiding out.  He was marriea to  39 Nii Kyap, Sara Gunanoot.  As I was saying, Nii Kyap  40 and Wii Gaak were coming from the same House, ana so  41 they used to be on that territory between Xsi Gwin  42 Gyilaa'a and Xsu Wii Ax.  So this time when they were  13 there, I'm not sure of the exact what year, because  14 Simon Gunanoot was out from 1906 to about 1^19, ano  15 I'd asked my sister — I'm just — when 1 was up there  46 as a baby on my mother's back, that would be the  17 spring from February, 1914 to May, the rivers woula be 42  N.B. Sterritt (for Plaintiffs)  Cross Exam by Mr. Mackenzie  1 reaay for trail then in February and everybody wouio  2 go up on the river, the Skeena River.  That's how we  3 would have gone out that time.  Eaith, my sister, was  4 still alive.  She's 86.  She'd been 14 years old or ^  5 years old then.  And my brother Walter and myself, my  6 mother and father and Guula, Charles Martin, my  7 mother's uncle.  Wii Gaak was also there.  Simon  8 Gunanoot and them were living there at the same time  9 right there with us.  They had a tent, had a stove ana  LO a tent.  I asked Eaith, I said, "Was he trapping."  LI "No, they were not trapping.  They woula go out for  L2 food and stuff like that for meat."  So this is  L3 another time — so then — okay, just finish it.  1  L4 said "Which way did Simon Gunanoot then go?"  We nave  L5 to come out there in May in the spring break-up.  bhe  L6 said "They went a way up to Bear Lake."  You see,  L7 that's another Indian settlement, Gitksan settlement.  L8 So at this time, whether it was before this 1S14 or  L9 after, that Gunanoot was just across, is south of the  20 Sustut then, camp there, and Martha Haimaoam, that's  21 Martha Sinclair, Nii Kyap, Haimadam was her brother,  22 and Haimadam was Martha Sinclair's father.  So he tolo  23 me the story that there was some people campea just  24 below them towards the Skeena.  They were there  25 hunting, not trapping.  People from Bear Lake, some  26 Gitksan people.  Charles Martin, my mother's uncle,  27 was on the Telegraph Trail.  He was a telegrapher at  28 fourth cabin.  He had heard about these people  29 trespassing, not the Gunanoots.  They know they were  30 there and they know what they were doing, but these  31 people were hunting.  So with a oog team ne come up on  32 the ice to see these people.  And Martha Sinclair, s. e  33 called Simon Gunanoot, my grandfather, Nil ga'a.  Ano  34 she called Simon, Nii ga'a.  And it's quite often with  35 the Indians it may be your second generation or uncie  36 or an older one, they will call them Nil ga'a.  Ca^l a  37 lot of older person Nii ga'a.  And that's what she  38 called Simon.  And she said "Simon said there is quite  39 a big fight down below us here." So it was Charles  40 Martin finding out what these people were ooing in  41 there, because he's a chief in our House Guula, I  42 think I have told you is my mother's uncle.  43 So Simon Gunanoot went down there and explaineo to  44 Charles Martin what these people were doing.  They  45 were not trapping and they were just hunting.  Things  46 were a little tough up at Bear Lake. And so in among  47 our people when things like that happen, that's quite 43  N.B. Sterritt (for Plaintiffs)  Cross Exam by Mr. Mackenzie  1 permissible.  So it was all settled.  So this is  2 what — Martha Sinclair was in this area.  She was  3 familiar because they were in ano out ano hiding  4 around in that area.  So — and that's when she  tola  5 me.  She saia "Xsi Gwin Gyilaa'a belongs to Wii Gaak."  6 And I said  "How far?" Now, in Indian we would say  7 Wayt Gala'an.  Wayt Gala'an is at the back enc for us.  8 To you people it's at the head watershed.  So Nil  9 Kyap, Simon Gunanoot's wife, was her aunt, and Nii  10 Kyap's territory is just east of that.  She herself  11 tolo me that Xsi Gwin Gyilaa'a is Wii Gaak's ano also  12 Dam Xsi Mootixwit, and Xsi Gala'an which you would say  13 the headwaters.  Actually she hac heard there might be  14 a bit of dispute in that area, and she hao tolo o Yee,  15 Joshua McLean, "I woula like to see Neil, so I can  16 tell him where the boundaries are".  And that's why I  17 went and she talked to me.  18 Q  When did she tell you about the bounaaries?  19 A  That was right after the trip from Bear Lake.  20 Q  1985?  21 A      That would be  the same  summer.     Yes,   it was  just  22 right —  just  a few weeks   I had the opportunity   to  go,  23 and she would ask and I quite appreciated,   and that's  24 what  she told me.  25 Q       So you haon't  been aware  until  then that  that  was  the  26 boundary?  27 A  Oh, yes, I was aware.  I was definitely aware.  28 Q  Did — was the boundary described in 19b2 when you  29 took the name?  30 MR. GRANT:  In the feast you mean or outside?  31 MR. MACKENZIE:  32 Q  In the feast.  33 A  Not at the feast, no.  I did describe — I forgot  34 whether — maybe it was at Walter's funeral or at his  35 feast when his brother died, but I know there was some  36 dispute here and there. And it is up — if anybody is  37 going to describe your territory, the chief aescribes  38 the territory in front of the other chiefs, which  39 would be La£ Seel and Gisgaast, Lax. Gibuu.  Now, if  40 there is any dispute they will get up and dispute it.  41 Q  That would be difficult — it would have been  42 difficult for you to describe the territories, since  43 you had been very busy doing other things working  44 everywhere.  Your whole life you had been working  45 hard.  You haon't really had much opportunity to go on  46 the territory.  Were you able to describe the  47 territory in 1982? 44  N.B. Sterritt (for Plaintiffs)  Cross Exam by Mr. Mackenzie  1 A  I can describe it from what I got from — what I haa  2 got from Thomas and — and Henry, and I asked them.  3 The north part and all down to Xsi Gwin Gyilaa'a, 1  4 mean, that was no problem.  That was — the one was  5 just more or less kino of new to me, although 1 know  6 the territory was there.  It was a matter of talking  7 to somebody that knows the definite boundaries, ana  8 Thomas was — knows them.  Wagal Wii, Davia Green,  9 knows that territory, and 0 Yee ana those people have  .0 a good knowledge of it.  .1 Q  So would you say that by January, 1987 you haa a  .2 pretty good idea of the territory boundaries?  .3 A  I would say before that I had a pretty fair knowledge  .4 of it, but some of our problem is the type of a map  .5 that I would like is the one that you would buy where  .6 you would show the — a lot of these maps here are  .7 just — it's kind of hard for me to say whether this  .8 was the exact spot or the height of land, or even a  .9 creek is hard to picture in the maps that's been useo.  !0 Q  Yes, I agree.  11 A  They are difficult.  12 Q  Well, wouldn't you agree with me — I have the same  13 problem.  I ao a lot of travel in the back woods  14 myself.  I use maps.  But would you agree with me that  15 generally speaking when the Indians were describing  16 the territories to you, they weren't able to give you  17 exact details of whether it went along the centre of  18 the creek or the height of land, they were speaking  19 generally about the river valleys ano the creeks, ana  10 that was the way they aescribed the territory; is that  11 fair to say?  12 A      Well,   actually  the  inside,   like if you  go to the  13 height  of  land — we will  say — we will  take  it   up  14 Cay use Jack Creek.     Now we  know where the height  or  S5 land is  there.     There is no problem with that,   ana you  16 start  to go north.     I mean,   you aon't have any  S7 problem,   and you follow that  through  until you are  18 almost  to Sicintine.     I mean,   that's  really  no problem  19 to follow  that  down.  10 Q      So people would know — people who travelled on that  11 trail would know it fairly well?  12 A      Well,   definitely  they would know because,   I mean,   it's  13 explained to them as to where you can go or you can't  14 go,   and the people on the other territories like  15 Tsabujc and those  people,   they   know how far  they  can  16 go.     Or Wii Minoosik.  17 Q       Now,   in your  affidavit  they  are quite detailed 45  N.B. Sterritt (for Plaintiffs)  Cross Exam by Mr. Mackenzie  1 descriptions given of the — really metes and bounas  2 description is the way we might call it.  Actually  3 speaking about running along certain creeks, the west  4 bank of certain creeks ana the centre and the east  5 bank.  How do people decide which part of the creek  6 that boundary runs along?  7 A  Well, sometimes a lot of it will depend on the size of  8 the creek or a river.  Sometimes that — like it  9 you've got a lot of that river, which you — like we  .0 have on Xsu Wii Ax, we own both sioes of that.  So if  .1 we are sharing any part with someboay else, with their  .2 bounaary, we will say okay, we'll go down the river.  .3 You can come there and fish if you want or fish on  .4 this sioe.  Those are what you decide — it was not a  .5 cutthroat deal among the Indian people.  Sharing is  .6 their big — it's their religion.  .7 Q  Well —  .8   MR. GRANT:  Let the witness finish.  .9   THE WITNESS:  This is what happened to us.  We were generous  10 people.  We were not hungry people.  We hao big  11 territories.  We didn't live in these village they are  12 talking about in the olden days.  They lived out there  13 where the food is, where the berries are and where  14 they can use the natural resources.  And in a way we  15 tried to share some of that with the white people.  16 But what they have aone is they are pushing us out.  17 They don't want to share with us our own territory.  18 Q  Ana where is the boundary along tne Skeena River."  19 A  Down — where we adjoining the Skeena?  10 Q  Yes.  11 A      We are aown the miadle.  12 Q      What  about  the Mosque River?  13 A      I  think we  are  on  the north  sioe  of  the Mosque  River.  14 Q      And then there  is a  tributary   of  the Mosque River.     Do  15 you  remember what part of  that is  the boundary?  16 A      I  think  in here,   I  think  it's —  that's through Xsi  17 Luu Wagooxst  or  something like  that.     I  think it's  on  18 the south sioe of  that.  19 Q       So the Mosque  River  is  included but  the tributary   is  10 not included,   is  that  true?  11 A      Yes,   if  I have said it here,   that's the way  it will  12 be.     And there is  probably  a reason for  that  bacK tor  13 years and years and years.  14 Q      Do you  know  the  reason?  15 A      No,   I wouldn't  know  the  reason.     Probably  a very   gooo  16 reason for it.  17 MR. GRANT:  The witness was referring to Exhibit 601 when he 46  N.B. Sterritt (for Plaintiffs)  Cross Exam by Mr. Mackenzie  1 said "if I said it", he was referring to Exhibit 601,  2 the affidavit.  3 MR. MACKENZ IE:  4 Q  Can you agree with me that Marvin George and your son  5 Neil Sterritt prepared the description in your  6 affidavit of the boundaries?  7 A  What was your question again?  8 Q  Can you agree with me that Marvin George ano your son  9 Neil Sterritt prepared the description of the  LO boundaries contained in paragraph 5 of your affidavit.'  LI A  From my — from what I give him?  L2 Q  Yes.  L3 A  Yes, what I give him is what I gathered from our  L4 House.  L5 Q      Yes.     Then  they   put  it  into these woros,   as  far  as you  L6 know?  L7   MR. GRANT: Well, I object to the — just a moment — I object  L8 to the question as framed.  I don't object to the area  L9 at all, of course, but he's explained what they dia  20 and what they had, and unless you are going to go — 1  21 am sure that some of these words are his woros and  22 some of them are not his woros.  In fact the artidavit  23 itself points out which ones were added in brackets to  24 assist counsel.  25 MR. MACKENZIE:  26 Q      Well,   my question is who decided which part  of   the  27 creek and  the  river   that  the boundary  ran along.     Was  28 that  decision made  by  the people who wrote  up the  29 description in your   affidavit?  50 A      No.     No.     That's  decidea —  the boundaries  is  deciaed  51 by  our House,   ano  I  suppose in years ago with  their  52 neighbours.     As you will notice — as  I was saying  53 again,   that Nii   Kyap is around us  up on the north  eno  54 there  again,   and Tsabux.,   Miluulak,   and they  are  the  $5 people  that would decide why  they would be  there,     ima  56 why   it would be,   I  don't  know.     That woula be years  57 and years  back.  58 Q      Would you agree with me that you have been researching  59 the boundaries for  several years?  10 MR.   GRANT:     When you say   "you",   you mean him  inaiviaually?  11 MR. MACKENZ IE:  12 Q  Neil Sterritt senior, Wii Gaak, speaking to airterent  13 people about the bounaaries for several years.  14 A  I have heard about the bounaaries since I was a little  15 boy, since I was able to listen to my mother, except,  16 as I was saying, a little bit from Sicintine on down,  17 you see.  But the north eno, that was — my parents 47  N.B. Sterritt (for Plaintiffs)  Cross Exam by Mr. Mackenzie  1  2  3  Q  4  5  6  A  7  8  9  Q  0  .1  .2  .3  A  .4  .5  .6  .7  Q  .8  A  .9  10  Q  11  12  A  13  Q  14  A  15  Q  16  17  A  18  19  10  11  12  .3  Q  14  A  15  Q  16  A  17  18  19  10  ,1  Q  12  .3  A  :4  15  Q  16  A  17  were familiar with that, and so Xsu Wii Ax was a  Household word in our House.  But what I am asking you is that different people to  whom you have spoke had different ideas about where  the boundaries were, didn't they?  Actually there was — to me there is none here that is  very difficult to cover as our boundary or unoerstano  why it's there.  Well, for example, Thomas Wright said that his father  owned land in Lai Seel, people owned the lanas insiae  the Wii Gaak territory, and you disagreed with that.  Isn't that a difference in opinion?  As I was saying, I tolo you before that Thomas Wright  was a very old man and he is a chief beoriaden, ana  for me to cross examine him — it's far better I just  leave him alone.  It's not worth it.  I   understand.  And you don't do  that,   not  to your  elaers.     You  respect  them.  Well,   you spoke  to several  of   the elders  to fma  out  more about  the  territory,   didn't you?  Anyone  in particular?  Charles Sterritt,  your father.  Yes.  Of course he's not an elder in Wii Gaak, or he was not  an elaer in Wii Gaak?  No, he is not in our House.  The reason he traps there  is to teach us where our territory is, ana anything  that we'll get from our natural resources, any natural  resource that we were supposed to use comes from our  own territory.  We don't go on other people's  territory.  And you  spoke  to Johnny  Moore?  That's  right.  He's not a member of Wii Gaak, is he?  He is married to my aunt and he has children, and for  him to feed his children, he comes to our territory,  takes the wealth off our territory, which is whatever  it happened to be to feed his children.  That's the  rules of the Gitksan people.  Well,   you didn't have an opportunity  to travel  on the  territory with Johnny Moore,   did you?  No,   I didn't —  they  caught up to us part ways when 1  took my  father  in,   him and Billy Bird and Sam Hope.  In 1930?  In 1930.  And we finishea the trip to Xsu Wii Ax with  them, and I came back with Sam Hope with the horses. 48  N.B.   Sterritt   (for  Plaintiffs)  Cross Exam  by  Mr.   Mackenzie  1 Q       Can you agree with me that  as you talked  to more  2 people  the  boundaries  of  the territory  become  clearer?  3 A      Naturally.  4 Q  It becomes more certain?  5 MR. GRANT:  Generally or more certain for him?  6 MR. MACKENZIE:  7 Q  Well, for you in your knowledge of the territory.  8 A  Well, actually once you get your territory ana, as I  9 was saying, you go to different maps and so on ano get  LO a picture of it, plus I had flown over that with  Ll airplanes years ago and with helicopter, you know,  12 with the — had a geological survey that was up in ti,e  L3 Groundhog and they fly over that area, ana 1 usea to  L4 always look around and try ana locate myself.  &o it  L5 wasn't the first time I haa seen it rrom the air when  L6 I was in a helicopter, but we had never stoppea tntre.  L7 Q  You have seen several maps of the territory, have you.'  L8 A  I have all kinds of maps on my own.  Big maps, small  L9 maps, topographical maps, just to make sure that 1  20 have got everything right.  21 Q  And those maps, I take it, have — show aifferent  22 locations for the boundaries, don't they? And you  23 have decided which one —  24 A  No.  No.  I'm not talking about maps that nao our  25 boundaries in, I am talking about maps that I coulo  26 buy at the government agent here ana locate these  27 rivers on it.  So then I know where I am at, because 1  28 have a hara time with these, what I look at here.  29 Q  Yes.  Now, I understand in one of these conversations  50 that you had with Thomas Wright he tolo you that  51 Thomas's grandfather was Wii Gaak, is that correct?  52 A  Thomas's grandfather.  Daniel Wii Gaak, that was their  53 uncle, I think.  So if there was an uncle before that,  34 would have the name Wii Gaak, they woula call him  55 their grandfather.  I think I explained that a little  36 earlier.  Among the Indians some of the eloers you  37 call them grandfather.  38 Q  Did he tell you that Wii Gaak got the territory after  39 the Hudson Bay Company came in in 1820?  40 A  I was talking to Thomas ana this was — this is what  11 he had come up with, ano I could — well, as 1 was  42 saying, I didn't want to embarrass him or anything  13 like that.  I couldn't understand why he said that,  44 because of — I told you — you know where Git An uasx  45 is?  46 Q  Yes, I have been there.  47 A  Okay.  Now, there is a lot of people living there, 49  N.B. Sterritt (for Plaintiffs)  Cross Exam by Mr. Mackenzie  1 years and years ago, long before the Hudson Bay  2 people.  Why woula a territory like that be just  3 sitting empty, nobody claiming it?  4 Q  Well, Thomas, I guess, tola you that the grouna was  5 unoccupied and —  6 A  That's what I was saying.  He said that.  I really  7 don't know what he — his exact meaning of mat. ±1  8 he is talking about occupation on that, whether he  9 meant our family or anything else, I am not sure who  10 he was talking about.  And as I have said before, it  11 was — just as far as leave it alone because I know  12 oifferent.  13 Q      Yes.     Well,   you have — speaking about  research  on  14 boundaries and asking people about where bounaaries  15 are,   you learned  information about your  father's  16 territory,   didn't you,   Haaxw,   on Salmon River,   Xsi  17 Gwin Ya'a River,   you found out about  that  recently,  18 aian't you?  19 A  I think I talked to Wagal Wii.  20 Q  Is that David Green?  21 A  David Green.  And he said yes, there was a House.  22 Would that be — that would be almost closer to tine  23 Nut, which is the south boundary.  Have you got that.'  24 Q  Yes.  25 A  And he said there was a House there ana a Smoke house  26 aown below and a lady we called Big Nellie, Nellie iui  27 Kyap, because she was married to Moses Nii Kyap.  i'i-is  28 is not the same Nii Kyap.  But the same House it orten  29 happens sometimes people living in Kisgegas would take  30 a name, people living in Gitanmaax or in Kispiox, they  31 would take the same name.  When this happens, when  32 those — there is only one seat for each name.  mi  33 Gaak only has one seat.  Nii Kyap only had one seat.  34 So when those two people come to the same feast at the  35 same time they sat sioe by sioe.  So Nellie Nii Kyap  36 belongea to Haaxw*s House.  The only other people i  37 asked about the territory there was Martha Kluyem Lax  38 Haa, Martha Brown.  Martha was married to Tom bampson.  39 Q  Yes.  40 A      Tom Sampson was a brother  of Mark Sampson.     Mark  41 Sampson was Haaxw.     So her  brother-in-law then was  42 Haaxw.    And she told me the territory was from Pine  43 Nut to this  creek.     Xsanso Sooxw I  think is  the name  44 of  it.     It's a creek where it's quite frosty   in tne  45 winter-time.     And she said as far as she knew that was  46 the boundary,   and I'm not too sure how much  I askea  47 her as how deep it was,   but I — as far as I  know 50  N.B. Sterritt (for Plaintiffs)  Cross Exam by Mr. Mackenzie  1 timber line and whether it went any further on this  2 particular time, I didn't question her on that.  3 Actually it was really none of my business to — the  4 only thing I would like to — it was because Bua  5 Matthews is a bedridden young roan ano he's Haaxw now,  6 and the only reason I more or less checking it out, in  7 case sometimes he wants some help, I could help him  8 with that.  9 Q  Well, I was a bit concerned about that territory,  L0 because it doesn't show up on the latest map that your  LI lawyers have prepared.  But as far as you are  L2 concerned Haaxw is still claiming that territory on  L3 the Skeena across from Kispiox, isn't it?  L4 A  It's north of Kispiox.  L5 Q  Yes.  L6 A      This  is  about —  let's see,   13,   14 miles  up the  okeena  L7 I would  say.  L8 Q  The other thing I wanted to ask you, I askea you  L9 earlier about Kate Jackson.  Did Edith — Edith was  20 your  sister?  21 A      That's  right.  22 Q      Did she  tell you  that  Kate Jackson and Samuel  brown  23 were La£ Gibuu but not in Wii  Gaak's House?  14 A      They  were not  in Wii  Gaak's House.  25 Q      No?  26 A  They were in Nii Kyap's.  27 Q  Yes.  Mr. Sterritt, in these field notes that your son  28 has prepared over the years there is several  29 references to 0 Yee and Nii Kyap owning the west —  50 east bank of Squingula River —  51 A  East bank.  52 MR. GRANT:  What's the — whose the informant that you are  53 referring to? I think we should know who is saying  54 this.  15 MR.   MACKENZIE:  56 Q      Well,   there is several  references.     This particular  57 one is William Charlie.     And this — you were at Moose  58 Valley   in September,   '86   at the meeting there,   weren't  59 you?  10 A  That's right.  H Q  And were you present when William Charlie tola your  12 son Neil John about Samuel Brown, 0 Yee, owning the  13 land on the east bank of the Squingula kiver? Do you  14 recall that?  15 A  Squingula?  16 Q  Yes.  17 A  I'm not sure if I have been sitting when that was 51  N.B. Sterritt (for Plaintiffs)  Cross Exam by Mr. Mackenzie  1 said, but I do know when we met with those people  2 again in Burns Lake, I told him where our territory  3 was, and I told 'em — they are claiming Bear hake.  4 They do — that's the people from Takla Lake,  some or  5 those people are part Gitksans, you see.  but some or  6 them are — well, we are not too what you call about  7 it.  But it is our territory, Bear Lake.  It they want  8 to go there and fish, it's big enough for all or us.  9 Alice here can tell you all about Bear Lake, but bear  .0 Lake is a Gitksan territory. Wii Gaak lived tnere ror  .1 years and years.  Simon Wright, Wii Gaak, he liveo  .2 there too.  When Daniel Wii Gaak lived there, Laatz  .3 was living in Kisgegas.  Laatz was looking after tne  .4 lower end of our territory.  .5 These chiefs aren't just chiefs, are not to be  l6 working.  They have territories to look after.  Ano so  .7 when Wii Gaak, Daniel, was in — when I say Bear Lake,  .8 they probably go in there for a short summer season  .9 and fishing, and then they are back on their  20 territories again.  But certain years and years ago  11 until the missionaries pulled in the people from out  22 on these grounds, the Kispiox valley all north or  23 Kisgegas there was a layman that went into Kisgegas by  24 the name of Stevens in 1880.  I often wonderea where  25 the people at Kisgegas haa frame houses built with —  26 like a carpenter.  This man was a carpenter.  Ana  27 that's the same thing, they pull the people in off the  28 territories, build houses.  29 There was some good points about some of this, but  50 it disrupted our whole lives.  It causes a harasi.ip.  51 A lot of the times, like you say, if you belong to  52 Kisgegas you probably went in there to harvest saiinon.  53 Wii Gaak can go to Bear Lake ana harvest salmon.  it's  54 right close to Xsu Wii Ax.  He can go across Ts'uuswam  55 Xsi Gwin Gyilaa'a or Wii Xsi Gwin Gyilaa'a where they  56 meet.  He had a Smoke House there.  He will go there  57 in the fall.  Those rivers were just full of cohoes.  58 There was nothing to harvest them.  It's getting late  59 in the season and it was easy to preserve them there  10 for their winter use for themselves and the aogs.  11 They were a lot easier to get and keep and smoke.  12 So then, as I was saying, the people on tne lower  13 end there, which was all over, moved into territories.  14 That's when actually the town started for people to  15 live there year round.  16 Q  Well, the reason I — we got onto that subject,  17 because I was asking about the meeting at Moose 52  N.B. Sterritt (for Plaintiffs)  Cross Exam by Mr. Mackenzie  1  2  3  4  5  A  6  7  8  9  LO  LI  Q  L2  A  L3  L4  L5  L6  L7  L8  Q  L9  A  20  Q  21  A  22  23  Q  24  25  26  A  27  Q  28  A  !9  50  51  52  53  54  Q  55  A  56  Q  57  A  58  59  10  Q  11  A  12  13  14  15  16  Q  17  Valley, and one of the notes that we have shows that o  Yee or William Charlie was saying that 0 Yee owned the  land right up to Squingula River, and I think you  disagree with that.  There is a very small portion, if I can remember, tnat  the creek — there is a small range of mountains  there.  And as I was saying, that we go down about  three miles down Xsu Wii Ax and we cross the river.  There is — there is a stream running into Xsu Wii Ax.  We go up that one to the mountains there.  That's Wii yoo?  I'm not too sure now.  As I say, when you learn so  many woros and different names in a short time, it's  hard.  So then from that mountain we have the stream  going towaras Xsi Gwin Gyilaa'a.  And where it hits  Xsi Gwin Gyilaa'a we split the river there 'til we go  about — it's not very far to Ansa Mootixwit.  Down the Motase Lake?  Ansa Mootixwit.  Yes.  And there  is a  stream  that  going east  that flows  into  Ansa mootixwit.     That's our bounaary again.  Yes.     The boundary,   where does the boundary   go along  the Squingula there?    Which bank of  the  river  is  it  on?    Do you recall?  With Nii   Kyap's you mean?  Yes.  Well, we would say it's more or less Xsi Gwin  Gyilaa'a.  Sort of curves down in, so it will be more  or less on the easterly aeal.  East, ana then 'til  where we hit our — ana it follows.  Actually Nil Kyap  would follow us 'til we turn south to go towaras Xsa  Hahla Gyoot.  Their border goes all the way there.  And where does the boundary run in the river?  Which river?  Which bank.  Squingula.  We are a long ways away from there.  We come down just  southwest of Hillary Lake there we start to come oown  there a bit, and down to Nii Kyap Lake.  That's Xsa Hahla Gyoot Lake?  Lake — yes.  And there is a stream from that into Xsa  Hahla Gyoot.  We are back to Xsa Hahla Gyoot now.  ^o  we follow that half ways down — I mean the river is  split in half — we follow that back to Cay use uack  Creek.  When we are talking about Nii Kyap ana Wii Gaak along  the Squingula, where is the boundary there?  Is it on 53  N.B. Sterritt (for Plaintiffs)  Cross Exam by Mr. Mackenzie  1 the east bank of the river?  2 A  As I was saying, it's hard for me to say exactly, as  3 there is a turn in that river.  That river just goes  4 and it turns.  It's a beautiful river and it's a  5 medium size river, because as it turns south into Xsi  6 Mootixwit from the mountains from where we had crossed  7 Wii Gaak would be east of us — not Wii Gaak.  lxii  8 Kyap would be east of us there.  Ano just how he lays  9 on the short portion of the boundary that he follows  LO Xsi Gwin Gyilaa'a, it's hard for me to say whether  LI it's east or a little bit north or —  L2 Q  Which side of the river is the boundary on?  L3 A  The boundaries in the miodle of the river.  We split  L4 that there.  Nii Kyap is towaras Bear River ano eear  L5 Lake.  L6 Q  Now, there are three traplines in that area.  Simon  L7 Wright used to have a trapline up in the northern part  L8 north of the Sustut, and then you have Henry Wrignt in  L9 the central part of the south of the Sustut ano 'l'homas  20 Wright?  21 A      That's  right.  22 Q      The boundaries that —  of your  territory  seem  to  23 follow  those  trapline  boundaries.     Do you  know  24 anything about  those  trapline  boundaries?  25 A      I have  seen —  and actually what  they  have  done  there  26 is when —  they  were  registering traplines,   they  11 weren't  registering  this  territory,   ana it  doesn't  28 give  a  true  picture at all.     Simon maybe.     I  haven't  29 seen.     I have  seen Thomas's and  I have  seen Henrys,  50 and  I  think what  they  were  doing was  taking out  a  31 chunk for  a  trapline.  32 Q      Yes.  33 A  And — which was — as I was saying, that they were  34 not wise.  Nobody was inform him, nobody was to help  35 him as to what they should have been doing.  36 Q  There is one other thing — a couple of otner things i  37 wanted to ask you.  There is a — one of the notes —  38 a 1977 report that you said — said you were talking  39 to Neil, and you mentionea that very few people hunteo  40 around the area.  Do you recall discussing tnat?  41 A  What was that again?  42 Q  Very few people hunteo around the area, snared rabbits  43 and bears and depended to a large degree on fish.  Is  44 that your information about hunting practises?  45 A  Well, there is no doubt that we had year round  46 hunting, rabbits for fooo, for meat, and grouse,  47 groundhog, but it was so much easier to get fish ana 54  N.B. Sterritt (for Plaintiffs)  Cross Exam by Mr. Mackenzie  1 preserve it.  Ana you depend on fish almost a hunareo  2 percent.  You could go year round with it without  3 preparing anything, because actually we are not big  4 game hunters.  We waited 'til we needed a moose, and  5 you would go out ana get it where you can bury it in  6 the snow, or deers the same way, that you don't hunt  7 them 'til you neea them.  8 Q  And in your research did you get an idea of wnen the  9 Gitksan people first started their traplines with  LO the — for the fur bearing animals, the marten ana  LI lynx and those animals?  L2 A  No, I — actually as a kid when you know people are  L3 just every year going out trapping, you thought that  L4 was something that went on all the time.  L5 Q  And from your research were you able to hear any  L6 stories or histories of the Gitksan people that might  L7 give an idea of the year that the Gitksan people  L8 started trapping the furs to sell to tne Hudson bay  L9 Company? Do you have any idea of that?  20 A      No,   I haven't.  21 Q       No.  22 A      I  don't think  that would be hard to find.     You can  23 check when  the Huason  comes in —  there was  a Hudson  24 Bay  store  up at Bear Lake,   ano it was there while my  25 brothers and fathers were trapping at Bear Lake.     'ii.ey  26 used to  go  in  there.     There was a post there.  27 Q      Well,   it  said  that  the Gitksan  Indians  didn't  require  28 these  large  traplines  and the furs and to set  them  29 until  the Hudson Bay  Company  came in.     Have you iieara  30 stories  to that —  31 MR.   GRANT:     Just  a minute.     When you said  "it  said",   who  saia  32 this?    What is  the  source  of  this  information that you  33 have?  34 MR.   MACKENZIE:  35 Q  I'm just asking you if you heard that as a result of  36 the interviews and the histories you have heard.  37 A  Okay.  Would you repeat it right from the beginning  38 again.  39 Q  Have you heard during your research hearing the  40 histories of your people that they first started using  41 the traplines to sell them in the — to the fur  42 traders, to sell the furs to the fur tracers?  43 A  Well, actually all I can say is I wasn't looking into  44 anything like that or trying to find out just when it  45 was.  As I was saying, it shouldn't be very hard,  hut  46 the people needed these large territories to exitt on.  47 Biologists, they say a moose, if I'm not — I'm not 55  N.B.   Sterritt   (for  Plaintiffs)  Cross  Exam  by  Mr.   Mackenzie  1 sure exactly  —  needs,   I  think,   16  square miles  of  2 territory,   and all   that moose is looking for  is teed.  3 He  doesn't have  to have wooo,   clothes,   shoes,   shelter.  4 All  they  do is looking for  food.     And when you are  on  5 a  territory  where you are living off  the natural  6 resources,   you are not farming  it,   you neea a  big  7 territory.     You may  not  believe it.     Those  trappers  8 would stay   out  there  all  the winter.     My  father  wouia  9 come back with seven martens,   beavers,   a tew beavers.  0 The  country  was  just about  trappea out.  1 Q      When was  that?  2 A      That's when my   father  was in there  up the  Xsu Wii  ax.  3 Q      1930's?  4 A  Around in that area.  Some people — I know everyone  5 familiar with Charlie Olson.  I will tell you a story.  6 It's hard to believe.  7 February the trappers were going up on the Skeena,  8 Charlie Olson, his cousins, two cousins, Eaoie Patsey,  9 Charlie Patsey.  Emma Patsey was the mother and that's  0 Charlie's Aunt.  She was married to James May then.  1 This is in '35, I think he told me.  They went up tne  2 Skeena to Kisgegas.  From Kisgegas they went east.  3 They are on Miluulak's territory.  They went over tne  4 pass, Atna Pass now.  There is also a trail — not the  5 horse trail.  It's south of that.  They use in the  6 winter-time.  They go across the lakes there and down  17 into Xsi Ansa Gas.  They go east 'til they hit the  8 Ingenica River.  They starteo trapping when they got  9 on Miluulak's territory. Ano they trap right to  0 Driftwood.  Lived in a tent, had a little stove.  1 Charlie said it was comfortable.  Charlie got one  2 marten for the winter.  That's all they got.  They got  3 some beavers, ana when they come out, they come out  4 through the Babine way and over the trail from babine  5 to Hazelton.  6 That is how baa that got when the fur traaers come  7 in, and even before that if you neeoed clothes,  .hike  8 I was saying, the moose doesn't need clothes, ano yet  9 he has to have 16 square miles. You naa to have fooa,  rO big territory for berries. Berries were not for  =1 dessert.  That was fooa.  That's how you got your  2 sugar, huckleberries, blueberries, cranberries, high  i3 bush cranberries, almost any berries that can you get.  4 People had to preserve that.  We hao no vegetables.  5 As I was saying, we were living off the land,  we were  6 a part of nature and we needed a big territory to oo  1 it. 56  N.B. Sterritt (for Plaintiffs)  Cross Exam by Mr. Mackenzie  1 Q  Your territory is one of the biggest in the north?  2 A  Miluulak has a big territory.  3 Q  Your territory is much bigger than Wii Minoosik, isn't  4 it? The Wii Minoosik territory at Shedin Creek is a  5 small territory compared to yours?  6 A  Wii Minoosik under.  They are under Miluulak.  Ana  7 they have some territories south of our territory  8 there as well.  9 Q  The Wii Gaak territory at Shedin Creek is much smaller  .0 than your territory, isn't it?  .1 A  I really haven't looked to see the size of these other  .2 territories.  .3 Q  I would say it was about — it looks like it is about  .4 16th or an 8th of your territory.  .5 A  Has he only got one territory?  .6 Q  He's got one up on the north Skeena too, up on tne  .7 headwaters.  How do you account for the different  .8 sizes of territories?  .9 A  That I can't answer, because the territories were here  20 before I was born, and that I cannot answer how they  11 got to be different sizes.  12 Q  Did you have an opportunity or to hear an explanation  13 of how the territories came to be set up in your —  14 A  No, I have not.  15 Q      —  in your  discussions or  histories?  26 A      No,   I have not.  27 MR.   MACKENZIE:       Could  I  have about  a five-minute  break,   ana  28 then  I  think  I  am just —   I  think  I  am finished,   but   ±  19 would like to have an opportunity  just  to  review my  (0 notes,   please.     But  I think that's pretty well  (1 finisheo.     Just  to  confirm  that.  52  53 (PROCEEDINGS ADJOURNED)  54 (PROCEEDINGS RECONVENED)  55  56 MR. MACKENZIE:  57 Q  I just have one more question, Mr. Sterritt.  Ana  58 thank you very much for your assistance.  I am  59 referring to Exhibit 10A, and that was the map of the  10 northern territory, the Xsu Wii Ax territory.  11 MR. GRANT: Just a moment.  12 MR.   MACKENZIE:  13 Q  May I ask you to look at that map and see if you can  14 orient yourself on that map. Do you see Xsu Wii Ax in  15 the lower part of the map there?  46 A  That's right.  17 Q  And you see the Xsan? You see the Xsan going north, 57  N.B. Sterritt (for Plaintiffs)  Cross Exam by Mr. Mackenzie  1 south there?  2 A      That's on the west boundary.    That's right.  3 Q       Yes,   west  boundary.     And you see  the Mosque  River   up  4 there on the  north  boundary?    It's Xsi  Gwin Hliyuun.  5 A      Xsi  Gwin Hliyuun.     Xsi  Gwin Hliyuun is moose  hide.  6 Q       Yes.     So you  see  how  this map is  depicting  that  7 northern territory?  8 A      Yes,   I follow you so far.  9 Q      Good.     I  just want  to  draw your  attention  to  tne  tact  LO that this map which was attached to your  Ll interrogatories  in January,   1987  shows birorlat  Creek  L2 going  right  down the  centre of your   territory.     Do you  L3 see  that?  L4 A      I  see  that.  L5 Q      And that's  incorrect?  L6 A      That's very much  incorrect.  L7 Q       You have  known as  long as you can remember   that  tnat  18 is —  that  that  creek is  the east boundary   of  your  19 territory?  20 A      A very  prominent  creek that's east  of  the Skeena  21 River.  22 Q      Yes.  23 A      And Birdflat  Creek.     And that's our  bounoary.  14 Q      Yes.     And you would not have approveo of  this map as  15 being correct  if you had seen that?  26 A      If  this map was  correct and the information  that  I  17 have got that it was Wii Lax Amaawxswit,   that  I woula  18 say   this is  our  territory.     I woula stick to it from  19 what I have learned.  50 Q       You would  say   that your  territory  is west  of Birorlat  51 Creek?  52 A      Birdflat Creek is our  eastern boundary.  53 Q       Yes.     There is  no question about  that?  54 A      No question about  that.  55 Q      This map is wrong?  56 A      Definitely  wrong.  57 Q      And you would not have approveo of   it in 1987?  58 A      I couldn't —  I mean,   I couldn't have seen this.     1  59 don't  know why  this is —  this is so far  out.  10 Q      That's what I was wondering.  11 A      This is too far out.     It's not even close.     This is  12 not our  territory.  13 Q      Well,   that's what I was wondering also.     I am glao you  14 have that view.     And then look at  this Sustut River,  15 please.     One more thing on this map.     If you look at  16 the Sustut  River,   and you can see where  tne  Sustut  17 River  flows  into the Skeena River? 58  N.B. Sterritt (for Plaintiffs)  Cross Exam by Mr. Mackenzie  1 A That's right.  2 Q And can you see on the Skeena —  3 A Wait now.  4 Q I  beg your  pardon?  5 A That's  right.  6 Q You see  that?  7 A Yes.  8 Q Can you see where  the Xsi  Gwin Gyilaa'a flows  into  the  9 Skeena River?  10 A This —  that's  right.     It's  about  four  or  five miles  11 south.  12 Q Yes,   that's  correct.     Now,   look at  that territory  13 there.     It  says  that  it  belongs to Nil  Kyap.     Ana  14 that's not  correct  either,   is  it?  15 A No,   absolutely  not.     Our  boundary  said —   I  think  I  16 explained  it  to you.  17 Q Yes,  you did.  18 A We go down about three miles west.  19 Q Yes.  20 A And then we — and imagine that would be that creek  21 there.  22 Q Yes.  23 A We  go  towards  Xsi  Gwin Gyilaa'a there to the  24 mountains.  25 Q Yes.  26 A And there is a small stream that goes in from the  27 mountains from that height of land, drains into Xsi  28 Gwin Gyilaa'a.  29 Q Yes.  That would leave the Sustut just near Gap  30 Ganeexs?  31 A What does that mean?  32 Q Does that boundary leave the Sustut just near bap  33 Ganeexs?  34 A There was a bridge there on one of those streams.  35 Q Yes.  36 A And a lot of those creeks will take that name wherever  37 they have bridged.  It's sort of an outstanding deal.  38 Q So your boundary goes down somewhere arouno there,  39 does it?  40 A I would say, as I was saying, an approximate three  41 miles south we would go up a creek.  42 Q Yes.  43 A And that would be our boundary.  44 Q Yes.  45 A Nii   Kyap is  east  of   us.  46 MR.   MACKENZIE:       Thank you very much.  47 59  N.B. Sterritt (for Plaintiffs)  Cross Exam by Ms. Koenigsbern  1 CROSS EXAMINED BY MS. KOENIGSBERG:  2 Q       I have a few questions for you,   Mr.   Sterritt.     Most  of  3 them  are to ask your  assistance in clarifying  some  4 concepts which are  confusing me.     First  I wanted  to  5 ask you,   you  gave  us a lengthy   and interesting history  6 of  the occupations which have occupied you over many,  7 many years,   ano you didn't mention whether you hao  8 ever  prospected.     Have you?  9 A      Yes,   I have.  .0 Q  Approximately when woula that have been?  .1 A  I would say that — I'll have to give a rough  .2 estimate, because, I mean, we tore arouna a lot or  .3 place, but we dio some prospecting, I think it was  .4 while I was up the Skeena logging, and we did some  .5 prospecting up there south of Kisgegas area.  .6 Q  And that would have been after you came back from the  .7 war?  .8 A  After.  .9 Q  And were you aware whether Simon Wright was a  10 prospector as well?  11 A  I knew that Simon, Thomas and Jack, they did a lot or  12 working with the prospectors.  Tney know tne country,  13 ano these prospectors would pick them up, even maybe  14 go on our own territories, because they had horses,  15 and doing that they earned extra money, and they dia  16 not object to aoing it.  17 Q  Okay. Dio you ever file any claims as a result of  18 your  prospecting?  19 A      That's what we  did on Thomlinson Mountain.  10 Q      And do you  know  if  Simon Wright ever  staked any  il claims?  12 A      No,   I  aon't  know  if  they   ever  staked any  claims.  13 Q      Now,  you told us,   and I am  going to move onto a  14 different subject now,   you told us about some of  the  15 history of  the name of Wii Gaak,   and did you take —  >6 did you take the name at a feast,   at a specific feast."  17 A  Yes, I did.  18 Q  And that was in 1982?  19 A  That's right.  10 Q  And what was that feast for?  11 A  Jack Wright, Hamoogasxw, died.  12 Q  So it was his funeral feast?  13 A  It was his funeral feast.  14 Q  It's my understanding that the taking of the name,  15 hereditary chief, in particular, I guess we woula say  16 a high hereditary chief, is a long process.  It can  17 take many years.  Is that correct? 60  N.B. Sterritt (for Plaintiffs)  Cross Exam by Ms. Koenigsberg  1  A  2  Q  3  4  A  5  Q  6  7  A  8  9  L0  LI  L2  L3  L4  L5  L6  L7  L8  L9  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  Q  30  31  A  32  Q  33  34  A  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  Q  43  44  45  46  A  47  Q  That is correct.  And have you completed the process tor the taking or  the name of Wii Gaak?  I have not.  And what remains to be oone for you to complete that  process?  Actually it will be the — actually it's almost like a  totem pole raising deal, but it will be on this — on  Kenny Campbell's tombstone.  We have to hold a feast  for that and that.  It is almost like, as I was  saying, it is almost like a totem pole raising deai,  and I have to finish that.  If you could see our history when I took the name,  when Jack Wright diea, it cost you a lot of money.  1  think it was two or three months after that, Hasbayats  died, younger brother, Henry Wright.  We nave other  feasts to go to as well when the other Lax Gibuus. t>o  then we have had Thomas die — well, I had my brother  die too, Walter Sterritt.  We hao to have a feast.  1  would say this would cost you thousands of dollars.  It's not that you are getting material off your  territory any more where food — one time there would  be moose skins they would cut up, knew what size to  cut it up and nana them out and smoke meats ana stuif  like that.  Today everything, we have fooa or anything  in there, we have to pay for it in cash.  Ana right  now I could not afford to do this.  As soon as I can 1  will finish it.  Okay.  Now, you mentioned Thomas Wright.  He hela the  name — is it Guuhadak?  Guhadaxw.  And who from — whom did he take that name? Do you  recall?  No, I aon't think I do.  Oh, there was Frank Clark ano  Edward Clark and those people, they had tne name  Guuhadak.  Actually Guuhadak is more or less  originally Wii Gaak's House, because they, as 1 nave  said before, they are very close to Guuhaoak, Niist,  Wii Gaak, Nii Kyap, these people originally.  1 think  if they were all came from that area, they coulo nave  been all one family.  Okay.  I am going to ask you some more questions to  get further clarification about that in a moment, but  I would like to just finish about Thomas Wright.  He  died fairly recently?  A couple of years ago I think it is.  And did someone take his name Guuhadak? 61  N.B. Sterritt (for Plaintiffs)  Cross Exam by Ms. Koenigsberg  1  A  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  Q  0  A  1  Q  2  3  A  4  .5  .6  7  Q  8  9  ,0  :l  12  :3  4  15  A  16  Q  17  18  19  A  10  il  Q  12  A  .3  14  15  16  17  18  Q  19  10  11  12  i *»  1j  14  15  16  17  A  No, it's not up to me.  More or less he is sitting at  Spookw's table.  Spookw put on the feast, which we  helped, and at that time too at that feast when Thomas  died, my neice, Helen Reese, who lived in Hardley bay  in Prince Rupert, she died, was buried there.  So when  they put this feast on, we helped with the feast.  bo  actually there was two people dieo, or we did the  business for these two people at that same feast.  And Steven Robinson is Spookw?  Steven Robinson is Spookw.  And does he now have some relationship to the name  Guuhadak as a caretaker or —  Well, yes, he would.  And as I was saying, that was  entirely — you would have to talk to Steve if you  want to know any more about it, because it's not  really any of my business.  Okay.  Now, you had — it was suggested to you, ano i  believe you agreed, that Guuhaoak and Wii Gaak appear  from the interrogatories of yourself ana Thomas might  to have the same members; that is, although there may  be a few members on one that aren't on the other, they  would appear to be small children.  The correspondence  between the lists of members is almost exactly the  same, is that correct?  I'm just not too sure what your question is.  Can you agree with me that the same people who are  members of the House of Wii Gaak are also members or  the House of Guuhaoak?  Well,   Thomas  originally  was  a member  of  Wii  Gaak's  House.  Yes.  And as  I was  saying,   some  of  those people,   there  is  a  lot  of  those people  that —  Tommy Muldoe,   Beal  Muldoe,  these people they  all  come from Kisgegas,   and they  move into — into Gitanmaax,   ano I think — and 1  know  that Muldoe,   Tommy Muldoe — they  come from Wii  Gaak's  House.  My confusion is this.  I understood your evidence  about the different Houses who are all Lax, Gibuu ano  who all came from Kisgegas are very close and seem to  be — and have been related over time, and those were  the Houses that you just mentioned, Niist, Guuhaoak,  Nii Kyap and Wii Gaak, but there seems to be an even  closer relationship between Guuhaoak and Wii Gaak, in  that the members of the one seem to be exactly the  same members of the other.  That's very close.  I think you are very close,  cut i 62  N.B. Sterritt (for Plaintiffs)  Cross Exam by Ms. Koenigsberg  1 am not too sure how many members — you see, sometimes  2 a clan, Wii 'na aahl, could become extinct.  They can  3 just be depleted.  And I am not sure how many members  4 Guuhadaxw has in their House.  5 Q  Well, if we accept for the moment Thomas Wright's  6 interrogatory.  He gave an affidavit and answered  7 interrogatories the same as you did, and he appended a  8 list of members of the House of Guuhaoak.  And 1'j.i  9 just give you a for instance.  It begins — I am  .0 listing now the members of the House of Guuhaoak:  .1 Thomas Wright, Edward Wright, Fanny Wright, Rita  .2 Campbell, Lydia Campbell and then it goes right on  .3 down the page, and if we look at the list of members  .4 of the Schedule A to your interrogatory, it begins —  .5   MR. GRANT:  Just a second.  .6   MS. KOENIGSBERG:  Sorry.  .7   MR. GRANT:  There was an affidavit of Mr. Sterritt relating to  .8 this issue filed or not filed, but given to the  .9 defendants dated May 8th, sworn May 8th, 1987, in  10 which he had reviewed his House members and provided  11 an amended list.  And I think if you want to refer to  12 the House members, that's the list you should refer  13 to.  14 MS. KOENIGSBERG:  Yes, maybe makes my question a little shorter.  15 Would you put a copy of that in front of the witness.  16 A  I think what he has done there, he has listed nis  27 sisters and brothers, and his sisters and brothers,  18 including his olaest brother who is Wii Gaak himself,  19 belong to the House of Wii Gaak.  \0 Q      Okay.  Would you look at an affioavit that Mr. brant  II is providing a copy of it to you.  Ano did you swear  52 this affidavit, and is that your signature? Dia you  53 swear this affidavit on the 8th of May, ly87?  54 A  That's right.  !5 Q      Okay.     And if you'll  just look at the thira paragraph  56 there  on the first  page.     You  say   the members  of  my  M House are the same as  the members of  the House  or  18 Guuhadak,   therefore this list  of House members would  19 equally  apply  to the members of  the House of  Guuhaoak.  \0 If  that's  the  same,   that will make my question  11 simpler.  12 A  Yes.  Well, actually, as I have told you, that  13 Guhadaxw, what he listed there was his brothers ano  14 sisters, his family, and I think that's where — and  55 as — I can always tell you, which we nave done tor  16 years, we have never — because he has taken the name  17 Guuhadak, we have never looked at him as he belongs to 63  N.B. Sterritt (for Plaintiffs)  Cross Exam by Ms. Koenigsberg  1 another House, because he was raised in our House,  he  2 was born in our House.  His whole family is in our  3 House, brothers and sisters.  4 Q  Is it correct to say, however, that Guuhaoak at this  5 point in time, and certainly at the point in time when  6 Thomas Wright was alive and held the name Guunadak,  7 was said to be a separate House with a separate  8 territory?  9 A  Well, I think he had — up around Gitanmaax there is  LO some small territories, and I think ne has his  LI territory there.  If I can go back, or if you would  L2 listen what I have said how depleted these big places  L3 were, you couldn't make a living on that.  You can  L4 probably snare rabbits on it ano sturf like that or  L5 hunt moose and stuff on it.  You couldn't make an  L6 existence on it.  So Thomas all his life to make a  L7 living he trapped on Wii Gaak's territory, and we've  L8 never considered him to be any different.  L9        Q  Okay.  The concept I was trying to get at, Mr.  20 Sterritt, was to try and understand how you can have a  21 House which you would say was separate, aistinct rrom  22 another House that had exactly the same members.  23 Would you — I mean, I can understana that you can  24 have two separate Houses at one time in history that  25 might come together for one reason or another, ano  26 then you would say they are all unaer one House, and  27 you might have more than one chief in the same house,  28 but to say that there are two separate Houses but they  29 have the same exact membership, I fino a aifficult  50 concept.  Can you help me with that?  51 A  Maybe I can explain how some of this happenea.  In wii  52 Gaak's House at Kisgegas it got so big that he built  53 another House behina.  This is when you come together,  54 say salmon fishing and stuff like that. He built  55 another House behind.  That still also got fillea up.  56 So Laatz, who belongs to Wii Gaak, built a House of  57 our own.  You know what I mean, built a smaller House,  58 Yagosip did the same thing. Yagosip belonged to Wii  59 Gaak.  Wagil Wii did the same thing, but they are  10 still in Wii Gaak's House. As far as I am concernea I  11 feel we are not too far apart with a lot of the —  12 even though we have different Houses at same families,  13 like I was saying, going to Nii Kyap, Niist and all  14 these people.  Like today the feasts, you wouldn't  15 know there is any difference in the families, because  16 they are all there to help one another.  17 Where you have a problem, if you aaopt a person or 64  N.B.   Sterritt   (for  Plaintiffs)  Cross  Exam by  Ms.   Koenigsberg  1 go into another —  if you went  out  of your  clan,   your  2 Lajc Gibuu.     Say  somebody La.x. Seel wants  to adopt you.  3 That's when —  and it's  usually a woman they'll  aaopt,  4 because that carries on your House.     So if you did  5 that,   you would have  to have the chief   that you are  6 leaving  and the  chief  that  are adopting you agree what  7 is  going  to happen to my  children.     Those  are  the  8 serious  ones.     From one Laj£ Gibuu to the  otner  ano  9 when you are  closely   related it's not a big deal   with  0 us.  1 MS.   KOENIGSBERG:       Okay.     Can we mark as  the next  exhibit  the  2 affidavits which you swore on the 8th  of  May,   li>b'/  3 dealing with  the membership of  the House  of   Guuhaoak.  4  5 (EXHIBIT  11   -   AFFIDAVIT OF NEIL  B.   STERRITT  6 SWORN   MAY  8,   1987   DEALING WITH   MEMBLK^HxP  oF  7 HOUSE  OF  GUUHADAK)  8  9 Q       I woulo like  to talk briefly  about  some of   the members  0 who are listed on your   genealogy.     In your  answers  to  1 the interrogatories you mentioned the  other  cniers  in  2 your House,   and one  of  them was Barlow Green?  3 A      That's  right.  4 Q  And what chief's name does he hold?  5 A  Ax Moogasxw.  6 Q      And  I  believe he  is  shown on page 18  of your  7 geneaology.     If we  can look at —  he is  shown on  page  8 18  of  the  genealogy  as  being the son of  Jessie Green  9 and Lloyd Shroeder,   as  I  read it.     Can you just  0 confirm  if  that's  correct.  1 A      That's  right.  2 Q  And is there a blood relationship between yoursell ano  3 Barlow Green?  4 A  What is the question again?  5 Q  Is there a blood relationship between yourself ana  6 Barlow Green?  7 A  Well, I would have to — Barlow Green's grandmother, j.  8 think, would be the daughter of Maude Johnson and i-iark  9 Johnson.  .0 (OFF THE RECORD)  1 And Mowatt, they were very close.  I don't know just  2 how close in relationship.  Like was often said that  3 we are also — there is a different House altogether  4 as Nii Kyap, Sara Gunanoot.  My mother told me bar a  5 Gunanoot is my sister.  Not really a sister.  It will  6 be a distant cousin or something like that.  That's  7 what you call them, sisters.  So as I woula say — 1 65  N.B. Sterritt (for Plaintiffs)  Cross Exam by Ms. Koenigsberg  1 used to wonder why do we visit these people.  You  2 know, there are certain people we used to visit ail  3 the time or certain people come ana visit us, and now  4 I realize when looking through this that that was why  5 we would go to these certain people.  They are  6 relations of ours, very close relations and in the  7 same House.  8 Q       Okay.     So as  far  as you  know somewhere back a  couple  9 of  generations —  .0 A      Well,   in my  mother   or maybe her — mother's  time  that  .1 they  are very   close.  .2 Q       Some blood  relationship.     And can you tell me wnat  the  L3 familial  link is  between yourself  ana Simon Wright  in  l4 that  line?  L5 A      We have  always —   I would say  we felt very  close —  L6 close as  some  of  the  people in the House with  the  L7 Wright's,   because  we were always together,   or   they  18 come  there,   they   come ano visit  us and sometimes  stay  L9 with  us,   and Simon was my   uncle.     That's  the way  we  20 planned it.     He was my Nii  bib,   and the  same  with  ail  21 those Wrights.  22 Q       I  couldn't discern the blood relationship,   if  you  23 will,   between yourself  and the Wright's from  this  24 genealogy.     Is  it —  is there one  that you  know  or?  25 A      I would  say   that my   grandmother and  their mother   coulo  26 have been very   close  cousins.  27 Q      And  that's your  grandmother  on which —  which  28 grandmother?  29 A      My  grandmother  on my  mother's  side.     You never mention  50 a  grandmother  on your  father's  side.     Tney  are  ail  51 what you  call your  wilxsuwitxw.     If you talking about  52 grandfather,   uncles and that,  you refer  to tne people  53 on your mother's  side.     That's the House  side.     The  54 others are callea wilxsuwitxw.     That's where you  come  55 from  on the father's  siae.  56 Q      Okay.     I have just  one last question,   and it  arises  57 out  of  an answer   that you gave to Mr.   Mackenzie,   and  I  58 just didn't  understand what you meant.     You were  59 talking about  the village of Hazelton or Gitanmaax,  10 and you said the  chief  or  chiefs  gave permission or  H gave up that land so that all  of  the people coulo live  12 there.  13 A      That's right.  14 Q      Or words  to that  effect.     What did you mean by   that?  15 A      By  that  I meant  that  there is  usually —  tnere would  16 be three chiefs,   La£ Seel,   Gisgaast and Lajc Gibuu,   ano  17 there would be — maybe the territory or  someboay   owns 66  N.B. Sterritt (for Plaintiffs)  Cross Exam by Ms. Koenigsberg  1 the territory, and they would get together, ana as  2 Gitanmaax was sort of a central point for fishing on  3 the lower end of the town — it is changed now.  Years  4 ago what you call a slough ran through there, and not  5 only that, every year the driftwood woula come down  6 there and pile up.  So while that slough I saw it  7 where the salmon, it was the pinks and the dog salmon  8 were coming through that slough, but there had been a  9 time when that slough haa been much bigger.  The river  .0 moves over, everything moves all over.  .1 There haa been a certain time when they coula have  .2 harvested all the other salmons in that slough.  it'o  .3 been much bigger.  Ana the other part that is movea  .4 across the river woulO have been quite closer,  bo  .5 these chiefs haa deciaec this is a gooa place tor us  .6 to have a village where we come to ano live ana  .7 harvest fish.  .8 So when you live in an area, you need wood, you need  .9 berries.  There is a lot of things that you neeo.  oo  10 there is — okay, we give up a certain area in a  11 territory, it will be a common territory to us, to ail  12 the people, Lax Gibuu, Gitksan and so on.  That  13 village was down by Xsan there.  Not where Xsan is  14 sitting.  It is on the inside bend there where those  15 Houses are sitting.  That's where — that's where —  16 there was totem poles down there.  I think they were  17 all down.  I saw them.  They were laying there from  18 the original Gitanmaax.  19 And so when I have said before there was some good  10 done by the missionaries and so on, so they dio the  11 same thing here.  There was more people coming in ail  12 the time, but there was enough land for all of us,  13 which some of them went up the Skeena for seven miles,  14 but we got cut off in places right close to Hazelton  15 behind the lake, like I was saying.  That been given  16 up, that whole territory and up the mountains there  17 for berries, that's given up for tne survival of the  18 people in Gitanmaax.  19 Q  And when was this land given up for that purpose?  10 A  What land?  11 Q  When was the land given up for that purpose by these  12 chiefs?  13 A  It would be long before this.  That's why that village  14 was there.  It'll be long before our time.  15 Q  And was there — and who told you this, or how ao you  16 know this?  17 A      Well,   my mother,   my   father,   almost  anyboay you coula 67  N.B.   Sterritt   (for   Plaintiffs)  Cross  Exam  by  Ms.   Koenigsberg  1 talk to.     And they  lived along the Bulkley.     They  2 lived  along  the Bulkley   right  up to  almost —   i  oon't  3 know  if you  know Mud Creek or  not.     There is —  ana  4 when  that  rock fell  in at  the Hagwilget,   tne  fish —  5 it made  the fishing so much  easier  that the people  6 movea in on  both  sides  of  the  river.     They  alreaay  haa  7 those  territories,   but  they  moved  in there where  the  8 fishing was  so much  easier.     They  gave  up tne  other  9 ones.     I have been up the river from Hazelton to  .0 Ts'itxs.     That's what we  call   the name,   Ts'itxs.     It's  .1 a falls,   Ts' itxw.  .2 The Gitksan people liveo on  both sides of  that  .3 river.     That's a part  of   our  territory.     There  is a  .4 place in between —  there is —   I forgot whether   three  .5 hundred acres  of   reserve there.     That's Gitksan  l6 originally.     We let — when that  rock came in there  .7 the people  from Moricetown were cut  off  from  the  tisn,  .8 and they  came  aown there looking for fish ana they  .9 came where  the people welcomed them.     They  were hard  20 up.     As   I would say,   they would like to help them,   ana  21 they  came and  go and came and  go and suddenly   they  22 stayed.     Some  of  them  stayed and some  of  tnem  are  23 still   there.     And that's another history.     That  is  !4 pretty  badly —  the  Carriers never moved or  livea  down  25 in  the  canyon.     There  is a  sign  there,   it says,   ana  26 that's  absolutely  wrong.  27 My  father  told me,   he said,   "Neil,   you will  watch  28 these  people when they  come out here  to garf.     'ihey  29 will  sit  on the bank.     They  will  never  break the  law.  50 They  will wait   'til  a Gitksan has  a platform,   where  ae  51 gaffs on.     When he  gets enough salmon and he'll  beckon  52 one  of  those  Carriers  to  come  there ano use  our  53 fishing holes,   Gitksan fishing holes."  54 So that's from the mouth of  the  river and up to  55 there,   that was  given up for  the Gitksan people,   the  56 Gitanmaax  people to live there.    And where  I  said in  57 behind  the  lake where  I took out  those properties,  58 only about a mile and-a-half from the slough,   but it  59 is not  reserved,   and I didn't feel  as if  I was ooing  10 anything wrong by  taking that.    At least  I am  11 holding —  it's up for  anybody  to take.     At least  1 am  12 a Gitksan and  I am holding  it,   which is a part  of  our  13 territory.  14 MS.   KOENIGSBERG:       Thank you.     Those  are all  the questions  I  15 have.  16 EXAMINATION gy MR. GRANT:  17 68  N.B.   Sterritt   (for  Plaintiffs)  Exam  by  Mr.   Grant  1  Q  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  A  16  17  18  19  20  Q  21  22  A  23  24  25  Q  26  27  A  28  29  Q  30  31  32  33  34  35  A  36  Q  37  38  39  40  41  A  42  Q  43  44  45  46  47  I have a few questions  to ask you on  redirect.     You  were asked  by  Mr.   Mackenzie about whether  or   not you  had  the  chiefs'   permission  to purchase  the properties  at  the  time you  bought these five lots,   and you  referred to the  description that you have just  explained to Ms.   Koenigsberg about  the area around  the  village  of  Gitanmaax ana the — which would include  where your House is located and also would include  these Hospital Lake  territories.     What I woula like  to  ask you is  did you have  the  permission of  Gutginixw   to  buy   the land  up the Skeena River?     I  think you said  around 19 miles  up the Skeena River  at  the  time you  bought  it.     And can you explain the circumstances  or  that?  No,   I  did not have  the permission,   but  I  haa  the  permission  of  some  of his House,   the people  that were  there.     And the  reason —  actually  at  the time  the  land wasn't worth very much,   and the  reason at  the  time that  I bought it,   to log it.  And which  people  did you have  the permission  of  rrom  his House?  Well,   there was Joe Brown and Thomas Brown.     They  were  the  people  that —  involved in that,   ano they  workea  for me.  Okay.  Anybody else that you can recall from his  group, his House?  Perry worked for me, Perry Sampson.  He's a nephew of  Joe Brown, those people.  Okay.  Now, you recall another question Mr. Mackenzie  asked you about this trapline registration, ano you  aescribed that you could — I think you aescribea that  your uncle, Charles Martin, trappea in this area from  4 Mile Creek to 9 Mile.  Do you recall those  questions?  That's right.  And then you said that your mother —  that the  game  warden,   I  believe,   had said you  could  register  across  9  Mile,   and you went back and your mother said you  don't  trap across 9  Mile.     Dio you  ever  trap across 9  Mile Creek?  No,   sir.  I would like to refer to 59C.  You were referreo to an  answer in your interrogatory of January 28th, i*b/.  In fact Mr. Mackenzie read this answer to you and it's  answer 59C, and I would like to just ask you.  1  believe the Reporter has a copy of it.  I would like  to read it to you and ask you wnat it describes.  x:is 69  N.B. Sterritt (for Plaintiffs)  Exam by Mr. Grant  1 is the answer:  2  3 "My southern boundary is the trail from  4 Kisgegas to Bear Lake. We go up Shinlegoyte  5 until we reach Sicintine Lake.  We go through  6 the pass there and then to Gwi Xsi Gungya haa  7 until we come to Wii Xsi Gwin Gye Laa to the  8 heaowaters.  It crosses the Sustut River ano  9 up the east side of the Skeena River to Xsi  0 Gwin Kli Yun.  From the Skeena River, we go  1 east on the Xsuiax until Gwi Lax Amaxit.  k.e  2 go to the heaowaters of Xsi Gwin Hliyuun and  3 Xsi Lax Amaxit."  4  5 Can you explain what that aescription is, ana you  6 can read it over yourself if you wish?  7 A  You want from my southern boundary, do you? Which  8 part do you want?  .9        Q  It's from right — the first woros are:  10  :1 "My southern boundary is the trail from  ,2 Kisgegas to Bear Lake.  We go up  :3 Shinlegoyte until we reach Sicintine Lake."  4  15 A  That's a very broad statement there, because there is  16 more than one trail.  We have our own trail that comes  17 down at Cay use Jack Creek.  And I mean you can see  18 this is not — like when you say the southern bounaary  :9 from Kisgegas to Bear Lake, I mean, that's a very  0 broad statement.  We don't cover that territory,  tut  1 we have our own trail.  I should explain to you that  2 there is a winter trail anfl a horse trail.  Those are  3 more of a public trail that comes from Kisgegas ano  14 goes to Babine.  i5 In the winter  they  cross at Atna Pass Xsin  16 Ts'ilaxwit.     It's a  creek.     It's a  canyon creek.     li.ey  17 cross  that,   and when they  come  up facing east  the  8 winter  trail  goes through the  timber and crosses  the  9 lakes.     There is some lakes in there.     Crosses the  10 lakes back into the timber   'til it hits a meadow,   ana  il they  cut  down into Xsan Gas^at,   Wild Rice Creek.     They  12 cut down into that and then continue on to Xsa Hanla  3 Gyoot.  <4 Now, the horse trail — I will go back to where we  15 go to the river again.  I was just explaining these  16 horse trails, these trails that are in there.  Now,  17 the horse trail comes out of the canyon but switches 70  N.B.   Sterritt   (for  Plaintiffs)  Exam by Mr.   Grant  1 through  the meadows to the head of  Xsi  Gitangas*.  2 That is the right creek.    Ana they  go down that.     1  3 have  gone  down the trail   to the creek that  goes  up  4 towards our  territory and An Djaphl Tsuulik.     That's  5 not the marmot groundhog.     There is little low land  6 groundhog.     That  is  the name  of  them.     And  it's quite  7 steep in there.     You could see why  they —  in the  8 summer  they  could  go down there with horses,   but in  9 the winter   they  could not  do  it with  toboggans,   so  10 they  cut around.  11 Now,   we have our  own trail,   which is —  right at  12 Cayuse Jack Creek where we  come  aown from Atna  Pass  to  13 get  down to Xsa Hahla Gyoot.     We have our  own trail  14 there,   and there isn't any  doubt  tnat it will   continue  15 on  and cut  into  the Bear Lake  trail.     So you have your  16 own trails,   which  I have  saia before,   I  gave an  17 example  of   that,   that Wii  Gaak had a  trail   right  from  18 Kisgegas  to  Xsu Wii Ax.  19 Q      Is that description there that is in 59C,   is  that a  20 description  of  the  boundary  or  of  the  trail?     I'm  21 talking about  the first paragraph.  22 A      Talking about  the  southern  boundary?  23 Q      After we  go  up Shinlegoyte  until  we  reach bicintine.  24 A      That's a  description of  the trail.     If you were  to  25 start on the southern boundary,  you would go  up Xsa  26 Hahla Gyoot.     You  can go  up there on a dog  team  in  tne  27 winter-time,   and  there is a good trail  there  in the  28 summertime which  cuts you — you cut in on the  29 Kisgegas,   the one that goes up Ts'im An Maxhl.     bo  30 actually mostly   I  am  describing here is how you  go  up  31 through the territory  from the south,   Xsa Hahla Gyoot,  32 Sicintine Lake,   and from Sicintine you are going  33 towards  the Sicintine Mountains.     And that's where  34 there is a pass is there.     And from the headwaters  of  35 this lake after you cross a big glacier,   there is a  36 big long glacier  there that you have to cross,  you  37 come to the head of Ts'uuswam Xsi Gwin Gyilaa'a or  38 Gwiis Xsi  Gwin Gyilaa'a.     They both mean small.     And  39 that runs  into the Xsi  Gwin Gyilaa'a,   the main Xsi  40 Gwin Gyilaa'a River  that  comes from Dam Xsi  Mootixwit.  41 A lot of  this is  just describing the trail,   and it  42 does on the little north side,   it does  describe  some  43 of  the boundary which Xsi Hliyuun and Xsu Wii Lax  44 Amaawxwit.  45 Q  Now, you said in part of your answer, you saia we hao  46 our own trail that went down to, I think it was to  47 Cayuse Jack.  When you said "We had our own trail". 71  N.B. Sterritt (for Plaintiffs)  Exam by Mr. Grant  1 who are you referring to as "we"?  2 A  Well, actually when I say "we", we are talking about  3 the House, our own House, Wii Gaak's House.  4 Q  What House is 0 Yee in?  5 A  Nii Kyap.  6 Q       You  referred in an answer  to Mr.   Mackenzie  that bimon  7 Gunanoot went  towards Bear Lake,   and then you saia  8 that's another  Gitksan settlement.     Why  —  how  ao you  9 know  that Bear Lake was a Gitksan settlement?  10 A      I  askeo my  mother,   because  they  always talk about bear  11 Lake,   Xsu Wii  Ax,   Bear  River,   and  I asked her,   1  saia  12 "Who lives  there?"     "Oh",   she  said  "Gitksan  people".  13 Ana that — Wii  Gaak lived  there for years,   ana  arter  14 Wii  Gaak died Simon also lived there for  a long  time,  15 and after  he  separatea from  Cecelia,   his wife.  16 Q       That was  Simon Wright?  17 A      Simon Wright.     And he was Wii  Gaak tnen.     They   used  to  18 hold feasts  there  and everything.     I  remember  —  now,  19 you do not  go into a Feast House until you nave  got a  20 name.     That name has a  seat in the feast hall.     Ano  21 whether you are there  or not,   if  they are holding a  22 feast,   say  the Gisgaast,   say  they  are holding the  23 feast and  the La* Gibuu's  are  there,   if you  got a  seat  24 in there,   you  get  every  bit as much  as anyboay   else.  25 And I  never  had a  name,   a  seating name   'til   I  took  wii  26 Gaak's.     So  I  never  went  into a feast hall  because   I  27 didn't have a  seat in  there.     But  I met all  my  28 obligations helping,   give money  to my  sister,   to my  29 mother,   anybody.     And  so my mother  one  day —   some  of  30 the people would come  out  of Bear  Lake,   and she —  31 somebody   come out and  came to our  place.     Tnere  haa  32 been a feast held there,   and they  would remember you  33 and meet —  Am Goosinxw we  call  it,   remembering.  34 My mother  was  telling me,   "You  know,   now  even  the  35 people at Bear Lake,   they  know that Walter,   my  36 brother,   haa taken the name Dam Aatsap.     That's a name  37 that has a  seat in the feast hall,   and these people,  38 the Gitksan people sent out the money  to our  family.  39 It will be for my mother and whoever  else was  there,  40 but she was just pointing it out to me that the people  41 there were the Gitksan people and they held feasts  42 there and everything.  43 Q       You said you didn't have a  seating name before Wii  44 Gaak.     Dia you have any  Gitksan name before that?  45 A      I  did.     What they  call  a  child's name.     You  all  have  46 to have a name.     You can have one  or two child's name,  47 but  until you — but that doesn't entitle you to go 72  N.B. Sterritt (for  Exam by Mr. Grant  Plaintiffs)  1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  0  1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  0  1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  0  1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  0  1  2  3  4  5  6  7  Q  A  Q  A  Q  into the feast  hall.     You have to have a name  that has  the seat with it before you can go into a feast nail.  You were referred to a  reference in your  son,   Neil  John Sterritt's notebooks  of a statement  by  Tnomas  Wright  referring  to the Wii  Gaak territory   unoccupied  before 1820.     From what you were taught  by your mother  and others in your House,   was  the territory  of  Wii  Gaak occupied before 1820  as far  as you  know?  Oh,   as  far  as  I  know.     I don't  know  how  far  back,   you  know,   from what  I have heard.     It's  just  been —  like  all  the  rest  of   these  territories,   they  have  been  there for years and years.  Before  the arrival   of   the white man?  Definitely.  What House was Thomas Wright's mother from?  Wii  Gaak.  And under Gitksan law did her husband,  Thomas' s  MR.  father,   have any   rights to  go on your  territory?  A      They  haa all  rights to go on the territory.     Like  i  have explained before,   that my  father   trapped on ha  Gaak's  territory.     My  brother-in-law marrieo  to my  sister had  the  right to  trap on our  territory,     uohnny  Moore,   who has a territory   right across rrom  us,   he is  married to my  aunt,   trapped on our  territory.     Ana as  far  as  I  know that  the father  of  the Wrights  trappea  on our  territory,   because he was  teaching  his  children,   Simon,   Thomas,   Jack and all  those  people,  teach  them where  the  territory  is,   and that's  why you  ao  that.  GRANT:       I would just  like  to take a couple  of  minutes.     1  think I am finished.     I would like to take a couple or  minutes.  (PROCEEDINGS  ADJOURNED)  I  HEREBY  CERTIFY  THE  FOREGOING   'l'0  BE  A TRUE  AND ACCUkATE  TRAImSCRiPT  OF THE   PROCEEDINGS HEREIN   TO  THE  BESTJ3F MY S£Ii*L  AND ABILITY.  LORI OXLEY  OFFICIAL REPORTER  UNITED REPORTING SLRVICE LTD.


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