Delgamuukw Trial Transcripts

Commission Evidence of Stanley Williams Vol. 4 British Columbia. Supreme Court Apr 21, 1988

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 rtt»»3#7,HV^  QITKSAN WETSUWET'EN  TRIBAL COUNCIL  LIBRARY  ,3In il]c Supreme (Enuri of Jirtttgl] Glolumbta  (BEFORE THE HONOURABLE THE CHIEF JUSTICE.)  No. 08 4 3  Smithers Registry  Hazelton, B.C.  April 21, 1988 and  April 22, 1988  BETWEEN:  DELGAMUUKW, also known as ALBERT TAIT,  suing on his own behalf and on behalf  of all other members of the HOUSE OF  DELGAMUUKW, and others,  Plaintiffs;  AND:  HER MAJESTY THE QUEEN IN RIGHT OF THE  PROVINCE OF BRITISH COLUMBIA and  THE ATTORNEY GENERAL OF CANADA,  Defendants.  COMMISSION EVIDENCE OF  STANLEY WILLIAMS  \iqlM  VOLUmC*/  United Reporting Service Ltd.  OFnCULi FREELANCE REPORTERS  610-1030 WEST GEORGIA ST.. VANCOUVER. B.C V6E4H4  (604) 689-1088 r  <3Jn \\\t Supreme (Court of ^rtttsl] Columbia  (BEFORE THE HONOURABLE THE CHIEF JUSTICE.)  1  No. 084 3  Smithers Registry  Hazelton, B.C.  April 21, 1988 and  April 22, 1988  BETWEEN:  DELGAMUUKW, also known as ALBERT TAIT,  suing on his own behalf and on behalf  of all other members of the HOUSE OF  DELGAMUUKW, and others,  Plaintiffs;  AND:  HER MAJESTY THE QUEEN IN RIGHT OF THE  PROVINCE OF BRITISH COLUMBIA and  THE ATTORNEY GENERAL OF CANADA,  Defendants.  COMMISSION EVIDENCE OF  STANLEY WILLIAMS  vol . 4  United Reporting Service Ltd.  OFFICIAL & FREELANCE REPORTERS  610-1030 WEST GEORGIA ST.. VANCOUVER, B.C V6E 4H4  (604) 689-1088 APPEARANCES FOR APRIL 21, 1988  PETER R. GRANT, Esq.,  P. GEOFFREY PLANT, Esq.  MS. MARVYN KOENIGSBERG, and  MICHAEL W.W. FREY, Esq.  Appearing for the Plaintiffs  Appearing for Her Majesty the  Queen in Right of the Province  of British Columbia  Appearing for the Attorney-General  of Canada  APPEARANCES FOR APRIL 22, 1988  PETER R. GRANT, Esq.  P. GEOFFREY PLANT, Esq.  MS. MARVYN KOENIGSBERG,  Appearing for the Plaintiffs  Appearing for Her Majesty the  Queen in Right of the Province  of British Columbia  Appearing for the Attorney-General  of Canada INDEX OF EXHIBITS  NUMBER DESCRIPTION PAGE  'Ģ9 Map attached as Schedule C to the  Interrogatories Response of Stanley  Williams dd. 01/30/87 254 225  S. Williams (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Plant  1 April 21, 1988,  2 Hazelton, B.C.  3  4 (PROCEEDINGS RECONVENED AT 10:00 a.m.)  5  6 ALICE SAMPSON:  Previously sworn as interpreter.  7 STANLEY WILLIAMS:  Previously sworn.  8  9    CROSS-EXAMINATION CONT. BY MR. PLANT:  10 Q  This is Thursday, April 21st, and second day of your  11 cross-examination, Mr. Williams.  12 I want to ask you some questions now about your  13 father and his house.  Your father's house was  14 Wii'mugulsxw?  15 A  Yes, this is where my father is from.  I just like to  16 say that I was feeling pretty bad yesterday when I was  17 trying to answer the questions that were referred to  18 by my mother's parents, Sakxum higookx and his wife.  19 This happened long time ago and I don't — I never did  20 see any one of them, and I don't remember any —  21 which — where she is from.  Whatever you ask me since  22 I was born, since my lifetime, I will answer what I  23 know and this is what I'll be doing.  24 Q  When you said you didn't know where she was from, were  25 you referring to Sakxum higookx's wife?  26 A  Yes.  Yes, I — I — my mother only told me that she .  27 was adopted by these two people and I never did knew  28 them, I wasn't born yet.  29 Q  All right.  Now, to come back to your father's house.  30 First, do you remember when your father passed away?  31 A  Yes.  I was there when he died and I was the one that  32 paid the expenses, and I don't really know the exact  33 years of how long ago was that.  It was a long time  34 ago.  35 Q  Was it before or after your marriage to Fanny?  36 A  Yes, she was with me then.  37 Q  Had she been with you for a few years at that point or  38 was it shortly after your marriage when your father  39 died?  40 A  I was with her for quite a long time and then my  41 dad — my father died.  42 Q  Did your — I still want to see if I can get some idea  43 of the time when your father died.  Do you remember  44 when Arthur McDames, Hax bagwootxw, passed away?  45 A  I know he died and I was the one that paid the  46 expenses, and I never counted the years of how long  47 ago that was. 226  S. Williams (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Plant  1 Q  Did your father die before or atter Arthur McDames'  2 death?  3 A  My father died first and we were looking after Arthur  4 McDames, he was living in the same house as my mother.  5 Q  You mention Arthur McDames living in the same house as  6 your mother.  Did Arthur McDames live longer than your  7 mother or did he pass away before your mother passed  8 away?  9 A  Arthur McDames died first.  10 Q  Now, coming back to your father, Mr. Grant asked you  11 if your father's house was close to Kliiyem lax haa's  12 house, and you said, "Yes, close." Can you tell me  13 what you mean when you say they are close?  14 A  Wii 'mugulsxw and Kliiyem lax haa were very close,  15 they — they were quite close, just like — take me  16 and Gwaans, for instance, we are quite close and that  17 is the same.  18 Q  Does being close mean that you work together at the  19 feast? And put it in the context of .Kliiyem lax haa  20 and Wii 'mugulsxw, would Kliiyem lax haa and Wii  21 'mugulsxw work together in a feast?  22 A  When Kliiyem lax haa holds a feast Wii 'mugulsxw would  23 go there, and when Wii 'mugulsxw holds a feast Kliiyem  24 lax haa would go there and help out.  And the reason  25 for this is they're from the same wil'na t'ahl.  It's  26 the same with me.  When Guxsan has a feast I go and  27 help out, and also when Olive has a feast I go and  28 help out, Gwaans.  29 Q  Olive being Olive Ryan?  30 A  Mm-hmm, Gwaans.  31 Q  Did — do Kliiyem lax haa and Wii 'mugulsxw come from  32 the same house? I know you say they are in the same  33 wil'na t'ahl, are they in the same house or did they  34 have their own house, separate houses?  35 MR. GRANT:  You mean today? You mean today?  36 MR. PLANT:  37 Q  Well, if tnere is a ditference, then let's start with  38 today?  39 A  In the ancient time their houses were side by side,  40 but today they have their own house.  Wii'mugulsxw has  41 his own house and Kliiyem lax haa has her own house.  42 Q  You just told me how it was in ancient times.  Can you  43 tell me who told you this or how do you know this is  44 how it was in ancient times?  45 A  My grandfathers trained me and they trained me about  46 everything, the — what is happening at the feast and  47 the different houses at the feast.  And my — my 227  S. Williams (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Plant  1 grandfather trained me, Arthur McDames trained me, and  2 my uncle, James Ryan, whose name was K'aatim  3 haayetsxw, these are the people that taught me  4 everything.  5 Q  You said that there — that the houses of Kliiyem lax  6 haa and Wii 'mugulsxw in ancient times were side by  7 side.  Are you referring to two buildings that were  8 close together?  9 A  Yes, two houses.  10 Q  Are there any other houses that are in the wil'na  11 t'ahl of Kliiyem lax haa and Wii'mugulsxw today?  12 THE INTERPRETER:  Could you ask that question again, please.  13 Q  Yeah.  Are there any other houses that are in the same  14 wil'na t'ahl as Kliiyem lax haa and Wii'mugulsxw  15 today?  16 THE INTERPRETER: No, I think he misunderstood my question, but  17 he said, "No, I never seen" — like I think he is  18 talking about the houses.  19 A  I've never seen it today.  He said he — they used the  20 hall today and this is what everybody uses today.  21 Q  Gwis gyen, you told me that Kliiyem lax haa and Wii  22 'mugulsxw were from the same wil'na t'ahl, right?  23 A  That's right.  They are both of the wolf clan.  If I  24 die, what is supposed to happen is one of my relatives  25 would call Kliiyem lax haa and she would buy the  26 clothing and bathe me and put the clothing on me. . And  27 some — one of my relatives would go to Wii 'mugulsxw  28 and he would buy the coffin for me, and this is how  29 the law is.  3 0 Q  And —  31 A  And our house members pay the expenses, the wil'na  32 t'ahl.  33 Q  And as I understand it, Wii'mugulsxw and Kliiyem lax  34 haa are under this obligation because they are, as  35 you've said, your wilksiwitxw; is that correct?  36 A  Yes, that's our law, the law of the Gitksan.  This is  37 where my father is from, from the house Wii 'mugulsxw  38 and from the wolf clan.  39 Q  When you say that — when you are talking about your  40 wilksiwitxw, are you talking about your father's house  41 or your father's clan?  42 A  My father's clan.  Wii'mugulsxw is the head chief, and  43 he is the one that is supposed to get the coffin for  44 me.  45 Q  When you say he is the head chief, what is he the head  46 chief of?  47 A  He is the — one of the head chiefs in the — in the 228  S. Williams (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Plant  1 Kispiox.  2 Q  Well, I want to be sure that I understand one answer  3 you gave.  When you die, will Kliiyem lax haa and  4 Wii'mugulsxw both have responsibilities to pay for  5 certain things?  6 MR. GRANT:  Just before the question is translated, he has  7 answered that question both on direct once and on — a  8 couple of times on cross, and I just — I'm not  9 objecting at this stage but I will object to constant  10 repetition of the same question.  11 MR. PLANT:  I've never asked that question in those terms, Mr.  12 Grant.  13 MR. GRANT: Well, the question that you've just asked has been  14 answered in exactly those terms at least twice, and I  15 believe three times by the witness.  16 MR. PLANT:  Yeah, well thank you for your comment.  I'll  17 certainly try to avoid repeating myself, but sometimes  18 it's difficult to understand just what evidence the  19 witness is giving.  And in that situation, I think I'm  20 entitled to ask some more questions to clarify.  So  21 let's just carry on.  22 MR. GRANT:  He said — he said — just now he said Kliiyem lax  23 haa — if I die, Kliiyem lax haa would buy the  24 clothes, Wii'mugulsxw would buy the coffin.  I mean  25 this is —  26 MR. PLANT: What was the question I asked that produced that  27 answer?  28 MR. GRANT:  That was the — that was part of his answer.  29 MR. PLANT:  I could have been asking him the time of day.  I am  30 now asking him a very specific question, and that is  31 whether they both are under an obligation.  He has  32 told me what they will do, I now want to know whether  33 they are both under an obligation to do this.  You may  34 not see the difference but I see the difference, so  35 I — I agree that it's unnecessary to be — I mean  36 there is no call to be repetitious, but I don't see  37 how this question is even repetitious.  38 MR. GRANT: Well I take the position that it is repetitious.  I  39 warn you that if you are repetitious in your  40 questioning I'm going to object.  This witness is an  41 elderly witness, I think you are in a very sensitive  42 area and I don't want him to — what for you and I  43 would not be a sensitive area, would be a sensitive  44 area for a witness like this.  And I am not going to  45 allow that to go on, but I'm not objecting to this  46 particular question, but I just caution you.  47 MR. PLANT:  All right.  Well, Mr. Williams, after all that fuss, 229  S. Williams (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Plant  1  2  3  MR.  4  5  MS.  6  MR.  7  MR.  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  MR.  23  24  25  26  27  MR.  28  MR.  29  30  MR.  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  MR.  39  MR.  40  41  MR.  42  43  44  45  MR.  46  47  MR.  I was really only asking you a simple question and  I'll try again.  GRANT:  That was not a fuss, it was a warning about respect  about objections.  KOENIGSBERG:  Mr. Grant, this is costing money.  GRANT:  Go ahead.  Just ask the question.  PLANT:  Q  Mr. Williams, when you die, will both Kliiyem lax haa  and Wii'mugulsxw be under an obligation to pay for  expenses arising as a result of your death? By  obligation I mean under Gitksan law, do they have —  they both have obligations to pay for expenses?  A  I — this is the law of — this is our law.  When I  die, Kliiyem lax haa will buy the clothing for me  because she is a woman now.  And today Wii'mugulsxw,  if I die, will buy the coffin for me.  I said this  before. We are going — we are following the laws  that we have, the laws of our grandfathers.  And when  you die, who will buy your coffin?  Q  Now Mr. Williams, your mother's father was Wixa?  A  I'm asking you, who's going to buy you a coffin?  PLANT: Well, Mr. Williams, after I've finished asking  questions and after Miss Koenigsberg has finished  asking questions and after Mr. Grant has finished  asking his questions, then you can ask me questions,  okay.  GRANT:  Well I —  PLANT:  Mr. Grant, will you please just let the examination  continue.  I'm sorry, I —  GRANT:  Mr. Plant, I have a right to say something on the  record.  This witness has indicated very strong terms  he wants you to answer his question, and you have gone  on saying that this — that you will answer questions  afterwards.  Are you assuring the witness that you  will be available to answer his questions of you  afterwards? I want to know that now, then the  witness — I can assure the witness of that.  PLANT: Well, Mr. Grant —  GRANT:  Of course, you are not under any legal obligation to  do so and I appreciate that, but —  PLANT:  And nor are you allowed to speak with the witness  while he's under cross-examination, so I don't  understand what the point is of the comment that you  are making.  Let's just go on with it please, okay.  GRANT: Why don't you answer his question and then he will  feel more —  PLANT:  I already have answered his question. 230  S. Williams (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Plant  1 MR. GRANT:  You haven't answered his question.  2 MR. PLANT: Well, in the interests of delaying things I'm going  3 to ask that the answer that I gave to the witness*  4 question be read back.  5 MR. GRANT:  I know what you said to the witness.  You did not  6 answer the question he asked you.  Are you — are  7 you — I just want to confirm that you are going to  8 answer his questions after the conclusion of the cross  9 and redirect; is that correct?  10 MR. PLANT:  That is, with respect, Mr. Grant, a most improper  11 question for you to ask.  12 MR. GRANT: Well you've advised this witness on the record that  13 you would do just that and I want to be sure that  14 that's correct.  15 MR. PLANT: Well, can you explain on a legal basis for your  16 interruption at this point?  17 MS. KOENIGSBERG:  As a party to this litigation I object to this  18 entire conversation and I would ask both parties to  19 stop.  They're wasting time and they are wasting money  20 and they are wasting the rights of all the parties  21 involved.  Could we get on with the examination,  22 please.  23 MR. GRANT:  The witness has asked the lawyer a question.  24 Counsel who is examining him said he will answer the  25 question later.  I just want to be sure that that's  26 correct, that's all I want to know.  If that's correct  27 then we can get on with it.  28 MR. PLANT:  I'm prepared to discuss this with you off the  29 record, Mr. Grant, but not now  30 MR. GRANT:  Okay, we will deal with it later.  We'll deal with  31 it off the record today then.  Thank you.  32 MR. PLANT:  33 Q  Now, Mr. Williams, I had asked you whether your  34 mother's father held the name Wixa?  35 A  Yes, that's — Wixa is her father.  36 Q  And as I understand it, Wixa would be your mother's  37 wilksiwitxw?  38 A  She is — her wilksiwitxw is the relatives of Wixa,  39 which is — the plural for it is wilxsileks.  40 Q  Are there circumstances in which you would say that  41 Wixa's relatives are also your wilksiwitxw under  42 Gitksan law?  43 A  Wixa is my grandfather, but my — my wilksiwitxw is on  44 my father's side.  45 Q  Thank you.  While your mother was alive, did you have  46 the right to travel on Wixa's territory?  47 A  I — I explained this yesterday or before that when — 231  S. Williams (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Plant  1 when Wixa died, my mother and my father went to pay  2 for the expenses.  After they've paid for the  3 expenses, the relatives of Wixa gave us — gave my  4 mother the land, Tjcaas 'wii lax. habaasxw.  This is  5 where my father would take his children when — when  6 they are big enough.  This is the — this is our law,  7 the Gitksan law, and before my mother died she gave me  8 advice, she always let me know that if she was to die,  9 that I would return this land that was given to us by  10 Wixa, and I would return it if — back to Wixa's  11 relatives when my mother dies.  12 Q  So the land that was given to your mother for as long  13 as she lived, did — did you also have the right to  14 use that land because of that gift?  15 A  Whenever I want to go on the territory, I would go to  16 my — to my mother's father's relatives and they would  17 let me go on this territory because they know me  18 Q  Is that true today?  19 A  Yes, this is our law.  This hasn't changed, it's — it  20 still happens today.  21 Q  Well, when you say it still happens, the law still  22 happens today, do you still have the right to go and  23 ask for permission to use Wixa's territory today?  24 MR. GRANT:  Just — just a second.  I just — I think the  25 formulation of the question is a little off.  You.say,  26 "Do you have the right to ask permission"?  27 MR. PLANT:  Yes.  That's not terribly eloquent.  28 MR. GRANT:  No.  I think it's miss — may mislead in that sense.  29 Just could you rephrase it for me.  30 MR. PLANT:  31 Q  Well, I asked you whether you could still use Wixa's  32 territory today, and that's really all I want to know.  33 And my — when I ask you if you could do it, you said  34 you could do it with permission.  Now, is that the way  35 it is today, you could use Wixa's territory today,  36 right now, with permission?  37 A  It is our law and it still happens today.  If I want  38 to go right now I'll go to Wixa's relative right now  3 9 and they'll let me go today.  I still have the blood  40 of Wixa with me and the blood of Wii 'mugulsxw with  41 me.  42 Q  I want to ask you again about your father's house.  Do  43 you know where the territories of Wii'mugulsxw are?  44 A  I know where it is, it's called Sgan Sna'at.  45 MR. PLANT:  Perhaps while we get the spelling of that —  46 MR. GRANT:  Can we go off the record.  47 MR. PLANT:  — we'll just go off the record for a minute to 232  S. Williams (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Plant  1 change the tape.  2  3 (PROCEEDINGS  ADJOURNED  AT   10:45   a.m.)  4 (PROCEEDINGS  RECONVENED  AT  10:55   a.m.)  5  6 MR.   PLANT:  7 Q  Now, Mr. Williams,  Chief Gwis gyen, have you  8 travelled yourself to Sgan Sna'at, the territory of  9 your father — or the territory of Wii'mugulsxw?  10 A  I went there just once with Percy Sterrit when we were  11 out hunting moose and I've never returned back there  12 again.  13 Q  Do you know the boundary of this territory?  14 A  No, I don't.  15 Q  Now earlier today you were talking about wilksiwitxw  16 and the laws of the Gitksan as they affect what  17 happens when people die.  There is another law that I  18 don't think we talked about directly today, and that's  19 amnigwootxw.  Is amnigwootxw something that you would  20 call a law of the Gitksan people?  21 A  Yes.  Amnigwootxw is one of our laws.  The son of —  22 the son of the father is — who is using the territory  23 of his father is known as amnigwootxw.  24 Q  In your lifetime, Chief Gwis gyen, have the Gitksan  25 made any new laws?  26 MR. GRANT:  Generally?  27 MR. PLANT:  Hmm?  28 MR. GRANT:  Generally?  29 MR. PLANT:  30 Q  Generally, generally?  31 A  Ever since the time begun when our people were  32 created, they made these laws and these laws are —  33 still remain today, and there is no new laws today.  34 Q  I'm going to change the subject again.  After you  35 married your wife Fanny, where did you live?  36 A  I lived in Gitwingax.  37 Q  At sometime in your life did you live in a place  38 called Sunnyside Cannery?  39 A  This is where I worked.  I fished down there.  40 Q  So when you fished at the coast, did you live at the  41 cannery or near the cannery?  42 A  I only stay at the cannery on the weekends and I'm out  43 on my boat on the sea during the weekdays.  44 Q  Well, when you were a young man, did most of the  45 villagers, most of the men from Gitwingax. go down to  46 the coast to fish?  47 A  Yes.  Most of them, this is where they worked. 233  S. Williams (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Plant  1 Q  And what is the season that you would be down at the  2 coast, what months of the year?  3 MR. GRANT:  Now or then?  4 MR. PLANT:  5 Q  During his time as a commercial fisherman?  6 A  The fishermen go there in June, but the repairmen that  7 repairs the cannery goes there in March.  8 Q  Were there people from Gitwingax. who worked as  9 repairmen in the canneries?  10 A  Yes, that's — some of them went down, this is where  11 they worked, and there was some people from Kispiox,  12 Gitsequkla and Kitwancool.  13 Q  And when did the commercial fishing season end in your  14 experience?  15 A  Long time ago it used to be till August.  Today it's  16 in December because we go up the Fraser.  17 Q  We go where?  18 A  Fraser.  19 Q  What sort of jobs have you held during your lifetime  20 when you haven't been fishing commercially at the  21 coast?  22 A  I'm logging.  23 Q  And where have you done logging work?  24 A  I go on the territory of the aluugigyet.  25 Q  That's not a word that I recognize at the moment. . Whp  26 are the — or who is aluugiget?  27 A  The — I'm an aluugiget.  It refers to the Gitksan  28 people.  29 Q  Did you do some logging work in the area around  30 Gitwingax. and Gitsequkla?  31 A  Yes.  Yes, both places.  32 Q  Did you do some — did you cut some trees on the  33 reserves, Gitwingax. and Gitsequkla?  34 A  We don't do logging inside the reserve, we do it  35 outside of the reserve on our own territories.  36 Q  Did you work for a company or — who did you work for  37 is a better way of putting it?  38 A  I was with Hobenshield for over 32 years.  39 Q  Was that up until your injury a few years ago?  40 A  Yes.  41 Q  I'm going to change the subject again and ask you a  42 little bit more about Gitksan laws.  You've told us  43 that in the old times the penalty for trespass was  44 death, after I think it was three warnings.  Do you  45 remember telling us about that?  46 A  Yes, I said it.  This is our law.  47 Q  When you say "This is our law," is there a Gitksan 234  S. Williams (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Plant  1 word for law, in that context?  2 A  It's called ayook,.  Lip ayook. means our law.  3 Q  Is that the same word that is used to describe the  4 crests on a totem-pole?  5 A  Yes.  This is the law, the Gitksan has only one law.  6 This law is in each house of the chiefs, and this is  7 the law that they used.  8 Q  How did you learn the law about trespass?  9 A  My grandfather told me this, my uncle told me, they  10 trained me because as a young boy I sat on my  11 grandfather's seat, and they trained me of everything.  12 Q  In your lifetime, has the death penalty ever been  13 applied for trespass, to your knowledge?  14 A  They did this in the ancient times but not in my time.  15 Q  I think that probably answers the next question, but  16 it's this:  Has the Gitksan law of trespass ever been  17 applied to the white man by the Gitksan so far as you  18 know?  19 MR. GRANT:  In his lifetime are you referring to?  20 MR. PLANT:  No, it was actually ever.  21 THE INTERPRETER:  Could you ask that question again.  22 MR. PLANT:  23 Q  Sure.  Has the Gitksan law of trespass ever been  24 applied to the white man so far as you know?  25 A  Yes, it applies to the white man too.  Especially when  26 they are out to steal the territory.  There was «*•• in  27 the time of my grandfathers there were no white  28 people.  29 Q  Are you aware of any instance where the death penalty  30 was applied to a white man by a Gitksan for trespass?  31 A  No.  32 Q  Now changing the subject again.  You told us the  33 history of the four warriors who took their nephews up  34 to Mezziaden for a battle.  Do you remember telling us  35 that history?  36 MR. GRANT:  Are you referring to the Ts'its'aawit?  37 MR. PLANT: Well — yes.  The four warriors were 'Neekt, 'Yagaa  38 deets', 'Naa gel gaa and Xsuu.  39 MR. GRANT:  Xsuu.  40 A  Yes, I remember I said that.  They've always told this  41 adaawk to their nephews, and I remember saying this.  42 Today I tell the younger generation about this — this  43 event that happened thousands of years ago.  All the  44 adaawks that I know, I tell — I tell them, the  45 younger people, because I want them to learn what has  46 happened before, and in order not for the white people  47 to take the territories away. 235  S. Williams (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Plant  1 MR. PLANT:  2 Q  When you described the history of this battle, you  3 spoke of the Ts'its'aawit people.  Are these people  4 sometimes referred to as the Stikeen people?  5 A  Yes, it is the Stikeen.  6 Q  Now, was it your grandfathers who told you that this  7 battle happened a long time ago?  8 A  Yes, my grandfather told me this.  Everytime he gets a  9 chance, he would tell me things, he would teach me  10 things that has happened.  The same with the — with  11 my uncle, James Ryan, who was Haayetsxw, and Arthur  12 McDames who was Hax bagwootxw, they tell me these  13 things.  14 Q  What is the Gitksan expression which is translated as  15 thousands of years ago?  16 MR. GRANT:  The Gitksan words?  17 MR. PLANT:  18 Q  The words, yes?  19 A  La oo'y.  20 Q  What does that word or do those words mean, thousands  21 of years ago?  22 A  I just tell you, thousands of years ago.  23 Q  Okay.  Well, how would you translate hundreds of years  24 ago?  25 A  Helt wii Vyaphl k'uuhl.  26 MR. GRANT:  Can I just — I just wanted to clarify because of .\  27 the spelling of that last word, if that word La oo'y,  28 is that the same word that is used at the end of the  29 phrase limx oo'y, which is a type of song?  30 THE WITNESS:  Yes, that's — it refers to that song.  Limx means  31 song and oo'y of ancient times, of thousands of years  32 ago.  33 MR. GRANT:  The reason I ask that was because I noted the  34 spelling was the same and I wanted to be sure I  35 understood that.  36 MR. PLANT:  Could we have the spelling of the expression that  37 was translated as hundreds of years ago?  38 THE TRANSLATOR:  Hundreds not thousands?  39 MR. PLANT:  Yes, helt?  40 THE TRANSLATOR:  Helt wii k.'yaphl k'uuhl.  Helt is H-E-L-T space  41 W-I-L space K-'-Y-A-P-H-L space K-'-O-O-H-L — change  42 that "0" to "U", U-U-H-L.  43 MR. GRANT:  In the last word?  44 MR. PLANT:  45 Q  Yes.  Now, you just referred to — or Mr. Grant has  46 referred to a type of song, a limx oo'y.  Is that  47 sometimes known as a mourning song or a dirge? 236  S. Williams (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Plant  1 A  Yes, it's a mourning song.  When one of the persons  2 pass on, this song is usually sung.  3 Q  Now, when you have been telling us during the course  4 of your evidence that the white man has only been here  5 for a hundred years, what is the expression that you  6 use for that? And by that I mean the time, the  7 hundred years?  8 A  Xwsdins wii k'yap is 50 years.  Xwsdimoos wii k'yap —  9 MS. KOENIGSBERG:  Maybe we should show that Gwaans gave that  10 evidence.  11 MR.   GRANT:     Just  let's have  the answer  first.  12 MS.   KOENIGSBERG:     Just  so the record  is  correct.  13 A      Xwsdimoos wii  k'yap  is  90  years.  14 MR.  GRANT:     I   just  don't want  the  interpreter —  translator  15 interrupted when  she's  trying  to get  the words out,  16 that's  all.  17 I think the witness was — for the record, the  18 witness was trying to remember the phrase for a  19 hundred years, and I think that's what the record  20 shows, and he looked over at Gwaans.  21 MR. PLANT: Well, I don't — Mrs. Ryan has spoken from time to  22 time throughout the commission.  I haven't really been  23 too concerned about it.  24 A  Okay.  A hundred is xwsdimoos wii k'yap, that's ninety  25 plus ten.  26 MR. PLANT:  Okay, I want to ask you just one more question then-  27 we'll take the morning adjournment, because I want to  28 get some spellings, among other things.  One more  29 time, question.  If the Gitksan want to say that  30 something happened just last year, is there an  31 expression for that? By that, again, I mean the time,  32 last year?  33 MR. GRANT:  You are asking the interpreter to say what this —  34 MR. PLANT:  Let's take the morning adjournment now.  35 MR. GRANT:  Before we go off the record, I just wanted to — to  36 just clarify one point.  In the early days of — just  37 because of the comment you made.  In the early days,  38 in the first two days at the most, on a few occasions  39 when the witness could not remember, he looked over to  40 Gwaans and there were a few names that Gwaans gave.  I  41 believe that this reference when you asked the hundred  42 years was the first time the witness looked to Gwaans  43 and Gwaans has given an answer on the cross-  44 examination.  And I think it's only been a couple of  45 times when the witness is trying to remember something  46 and Gwaans has triggered his memory with respect to a  47 couple of names and things like that.  And the only 237  S. Williams (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Plant  1 reason I wanted to say that was because that only  2 happened for the first few days on direct and it's  3 just a question of this witness trying to remember and  4 I didn't want it to be implied that this was going on  5 throughout the examination.  6 MR. PLANT:  Fair enough.  Let's take the morning adjournment.  7  8 (PROCEEDINGS ADJOURNED AT 11:20 a.m.)  9 (PROCEEDINGS RECONVENED AT 11:35 a.m.)  10  11 MR. PLANT:  12 Q  Now, I've been instructed something — I've learned  13 something about numbers during this adjournment, and  14 what I think I've learned is this, that the word for  15 100 is k'i'waa'; is that correct?  16 A  K'i'waa'.  17 Q  K'i'waa'?  18 A  Is the hundred.  19 Q  The Gitksan expression for last year is gi k'uuhl?  20 A  Yes, gi k'uuhl.  21 Q  And when you were giving us the number for 50, as I  22 understand it, the Gitksan words in that number mean  23 five times ten, and perhaps that's something that I'll  24 direct that at the interpreter.  Oh, and I — yes,  25 absolutely.  I was advised by this — advised of this,  26 by Ms. Stevens not by Mr. Williams during the break. ..  27 But I wanted to have some understanding of what the  28 components of the number for 50 and the number for 90  2 9 meant.  And maybe — I may not be correct, but the  30 phrase for 50, I understood, had words in it, Gitksan  31 words that meant five times ten?  32 A  Yes.  Xwsdins is five and wii k'yap is ten.  33 Q  And the number for 90 that was given by Mr. Williams,  34 does it break down the same way?  3 5 A  Yes, it does.  36 Q  Nine times ten?  37 A  Yes.  38 Q  Thank you very much  39 I want to ask you now, Chief Gwis gyen, some other  40 questions about the adaawk of the battle with the  41 Ts'its'aawit.  One of the warriors was 'Yagaa deets'.  42 Is the adaawk which you told of the battle of the  43 Ts'its'aawit, part of the adaawk of Gwis gyen?  44 A  It belongs to the Kitwancool people, but 'Yagaa deets'  45 was there and he was the one that — one of the  46 warriors fighting the Ts'its'aawit and he was from the  47 house of Gwis gyen. 238  S. Williams (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Plant  1  Q  2  3  A  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  12  Q  13  14  15  16  17  A  18  19  20  21  Q  22  23  A  24  25  Q  26  A  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  Q  35  A  36  37  38  Q  39  40  41  A  42  43  44  Q  45  46  A  47  Do you need permission from the Kitwancool people to  tell this adaawk?  I was asked by you people to tell this — this war  between the Ts'its'aawit and the Kitwancool people, so  that's why I told this, what happened.  I know a lot  of adaawks, and it — which belongs to different  chiefs and their families, and it's not for me to tell  any of these adaawks, I have — have to have  permission from the head chief before I tell any of  these adaawks.  If you want to hear any other adaawks,  then you will have to go to the owner of that adaawk.  All right, thank you.  Now, does the adaawk that you  did tell us of the battle with the Ts'its'aawit  people, does that adaawk tell you why the Ts'its'aawit  people attacked the village of Kitwancool which was  then known as Gitan'yaaw?  It's hard for me to say this now.  They were just —  they were acting like the — well, they were like the  white people now; they were trying to steal the land  of the Kitwancool people.  When 'Yagaa deets* returned from this battle, did he  bring back any crests?  No, he didn't have any — brought any crests back  because he is not supposed to do this.  Why was he not supposed to do this?  Because the Ts'its'aawit had their own laws and we-  have our own laws.  What they could have done was they  would have claimed the territory that they were  fighting on, and this is what their plan was.  'Yagaa  deets' was going to have the lower part and Xsuu was  going to have the upper part, but in the end, Xsuu was  killed by the — by the Ts'its'aawit and 'Yagaa deets'  didn't want any part of the land after.  Does Gwis gyen have a totem-pole today?  We have our totem-pole at Gitsequkla.  The name of our  totem-pole is k'il haast.  We have spent millions of  dollars on the k'il haast and it's still there today.  Does Gwis gyen have more than one pole today or just  the one pole? And by Gwis gyen — by Gwis gyen I  actually mean the house of Gwis gyen?  Gwis gyen has another one which is known as sk'an  milkst, it is the two — two killer whales meeting —  or passing each other.  Are there crests on the pole of Gwis gyen, the pole  that you call k'il haast?  There is — what is carved on it is the fireweed.  This is — this was the large fireweed that was found 239  S. Williams (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Plant  1 in Gitsequkla and this is what's on the pole, and this  2 is why they call the pole k'il haast, that means one  3 fireweed.  4 Q  How long has that pole been there, the k'il haast  5 pole?  6 THE INTERPRETER: What do you mean "been there", do you mean  7 when was it erected or —  8 Q  Yes.  When was that particular pole erected?  9 A  The k'il haast has been there since the beginning of  10 time, before the flood, and it's passed on from —  11 down from generation to generation, and we still have  12 it at the present day.  They — these poles were well  13 looked after.  If — if the pole has rotted, what they  14 would do, they — the pole has rotted and fall, what  15 they would do is they would cut it up and burn it so  16 nobody else would use it, and then they would raise  17 another one and they would have to have a feast.  18 Q  Has Gwis gyen raised a pole in your lifetime?  19 A  I was the one that erect that pole in Gitsequkla.  I  20 was the one that raised the pole in Gitsequkla and I  21 also raised a lot of headstones, and this is why in my  22 lifetime I've spent so much money.  23 Q  Do you remember when you raised the pole that you've  24 just spoken of?  25 A  It's been five years now.  26 Q  Did Hax bagwootxw, the late Arthur McDames, raise a  27 pole in Gitsequkla about 40 years ago?  28 A  Yes, the pole of Hax bagwootxw is still standing now.  29 There is a killer whale on it.  30 Q  Was — and that — the pole you are referring to that  31 was erected in your lifetime?  32 A  Yes.  I helped him out, I was there.  33 Q  I want to take you back now to the adaawk of the  34 battle with the Ts'its'aawit at Mezziaden.  You told  35 us that after the warriors came back, the people of  36 Kitwancool had a feast and this is when the warriors  37 were paid for helping them out.  What were they paid?  3 8 A  Long time ago they used — they used the hides of  39 ground hog and fishers and martens for payments in the  40 feast hall.  41 Q  Now, you've told us that you went to a meeting where  42 Fred Good announced that the — that white people were  43 forbidden to go to Cranberry River.  Can you tell me  44 when that meeting was, how many years ago?  45 A  It's about six years now.  46 Q  Fred Good was a Kitwancool chief?  47 A  Yes. 240  S. Williams (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Plant  1 Q  Now, when you — you told us about a conversation that  2 you had with Fred Good when you discussed compensation  3 for the blood of the warriors, and you said you didn't  4 want materials, you wanted money.  Why did you say  5 that?  6 A  When Fred Johnson held a meeting in Kitwancool —  7 Q  Fred Johnson?  8 A  Fred Good, and they — the village — almost the whole  9 village attended this meeting, and they called Malii,  10 Gordon Johnson, and Gordon called me.  He wanted me to  11 sit in and watch this meeting going on.  And Fred Good  12 stood up and talked and he said that he did not want  13 any white people to trespass on that land, and he  14 didn't want the people of Gitwingax. and Gitsequkla to  15 trespass on that land, and this was what Fred Good  16 said at that meeting.  Fred Good was sitting beside  17 me, just like where Mr. Grant is sitting now, and he  18 asked me, "Is this right that we have a meeting?"  He  19 said it loudly so everybody would hear, so I answered  20 him and I said, "Yes, it is right that you have a  21 meeting." After this I — I asked him loudly, because  22 he did not want the Gitwingax. people and the  23 Gitsequkla people to walk — enter the territory.  So  24 this — what I said was, "What about the blood of  25 'Yagaa deets' and Xsuu and the blood of 'Naa gel gaa  26 and 'Neekt?" And Fred answered me right away and he ...  27 said, "We've already paid you with material things."  28 And I told him that we do not want material things,  29 that we wanted money for the — for the blood of the  3 0 warriors that helped them out.  31 After this time he — they opened this territory  32 to the — to our people, the Gitwingax. and the  33 Gitsequkla and also to the white people.  There is  34 people there that walk — enter this territory now,  35 today.  When the moose season opens the white people  36 always go on that territory, and none of our people  37 ever go there.  And this is the result of the meeting,  38 when Fred and I talked together, this is the reason  39 why they allowed the people to enter this territory.  40 MR. GRANT:  I just want to clarify part of that.  I just want to  41 clarify part of the answer.  42 MR. PLANT:  Yes.  43 MR. GRANT:  You said, Madam Interpreter, that when the moose  44 season opens the white people go on there and none of  45 our people ever go on there.  When you — when the  46 witness was saying that, was that — when you say  47 "none of our people ever go on there," was that at any 241  S. Williams (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Plant  1 time or was that during moose season?  2 THE INTERPRETER:  I'll ask him.  3 THE WITNESS:  Yes, this is during the moose season.  4 MR. GRANT:  I ask that because the answer was a conjunction that  5 was unclear.  I just want to be clear what the answer  6 was.  7 MR. PLANT:  8 Q  The territory that you are talking about, that is to  9 say that Fred Good was talking about, which you say,  10 "Fred opened for our people," is that Xsi 'yagaa skit  11 or Cranberry River?  12 A  Yes.  13 Q  Have you been moose hunting there yourself?  14 A  I went there for about a month and I've never seen a  15 moose there.  16 Q  To your knowledge, in your life have other people from  17 Gitwingax. and Gitsequkla gone up there to hunt moose?  18 A  Today they go there at times.  19 Q  By "they" do you mean the people of Gitsequkla and  20 Gitwingax?  21 A  Yes.  22 MR. PLANT:  I'm planning to move to another subject area.  23 MR. GRANT:  Just look for a note.  I — can we go off the record  24 just a second?  25 MR. PLANT:  Well, yes.  26 (OFF  THE RECORD  DISCUSSION)  27 MR.   PLANT:    We'll  adjourn now for lunch.  28  2 9 (PROCEEDINGS  ADJOURNED  AT  12:00  p.m.)  3 0 (PROCEEDINGS  RECONVENED AT  1:35   p.m.)  31  3 2 MR.   PLANT:  33 Q  Gwis gyen, when you told us that when your  34 grandfather, Sam Gwis gyen died, there was a feast at  35 the cannery at the coast.  Do you remember telling us  36 that?  37 A  Yes, I remember.  38 Q  And was there — or is there a Gitksan term for that  39 kind of feast?  40 A  Lax 'nisxw.  41 MR. GRANT:  Could I get a spelling for the record, please.  42 THE TRANSLATOR:  Lax 'nisxw, L-A-X-underlined space '-N-I-S-X-W.  43 MR. GRANT:  Thank you.  44 MR. PLANT:  45 Q  Does that kind of feast still go on today or was that  46 a special feast?  47 A  When a chief dies and the relatives and people of the 242  S. Williams (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Plant  1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  Q  9  A  10  Q  11  12  13  A  14  Q  15  16  17  A  18  19  20  21  Q  22  A  23  Q  24  A  25  Q  26  A  27  Q  28  29  MR. GRA1  30  MR. PL Al  31  Q  32  A  33  34  Q  35  36  A  37  38  39  40  Q  41  42  43  A  44  Q  45  46  47  A  other villages are in a different location, a  different village, like when we were down the coast we  were — we were down the coast and we — we heard —  and we told the other different people that my father  has — grandfather has passed on, and this is what we  call Lax 'nisxw which means "the hearing of" in our  language.  The hearing?  Of.  In the days when you were a young man, did feasts —  did Lax 'nisxw feasts take place from time to time  down at the canneries?  Yes, they do that.  And does that still go on today, if the — if the  chief dies and the relatives and people are in a  different village?  Yes.  It's only when — when the relatives and other  people from that village are in a different location,  a different village.  But if they are in their own  village, then that doesn't happen.  Where did Sam Gwis gyen die?  In Gitwingax.  When he died, was there a smoke feast?  Yes, they did have a smoke feast, it's the law.  And did that happen in Gitwingax?  Yes, in Gitwingax.  And did that feast occur after you had come up from  the cannery?  :  The smoke feast?  •  Yes?  Yes, I was there at the smoke feast.  I'm the one that  is supposed to be there.  Can you remember who some of the other people were who  were at that feast?  It's too long.  It's been too long and I can't  remember.  If I knew this — what the government  wanted of us, I would have kept track of everything  that happened.  Let me ask you a few other questions to see what you  can remember.  Can you remember whether Sam Gwis gyen  was buried or cremated?  They didn't cremate at this time, they buried him.  You told us about a feast called Begwinsxw, which took  place before the cremation of the chief in the old  days.  Does that feast still go on today?  Yes, but they don't cremate the person today. 243  S. Williams (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Plant  1 Q  So does the feast known as Begwinsxw take place  2 today — or when does it take place today?  3 A  When the head chief dies, this is when it occurs, in  4 their own village.  5 Q  Does it occur before the chief — the head — the  6 chief is buried or after?  7 A  Before.  8 Q  And is there another feast after the chief is buried?  9 A  Yes, they have another feast.  10 Q  And is that feast, the feast after the burial  11 sometimes called the funeral feast nowadays?  12 A  Yes.  I told you people this before when I was asked.  13 In the ancient times when the chief passed on, the  14 members of the house — one of the members — the  15 chief — in the chief's house, would put on a blanket  16 and he would have a rattle and he would — he would  17 walk around a village singing the Limx oo'y, and he  18 would — he would walk around and everybody knew, they  19 would see who the person was and they knew who had  20 died.  And all the village is idle now, the — even  21 the kids don't play, and they just leave everything  22 the way it was.  And this is known as the — this is  23 known as xjagwinsxw.  They don't — everything is  24 stopped, they don't even play, they don't even have  25 any kind of a sport that they do play back then.  They  26 have great respects when there is a death of a chief..  27 Q  If the person who died in the old time was not a  28 chief, was this procedure that you've just described  29 followed, after his death?  30 A  Yes.  Yes.  In the ancient times it was — it was a  31 various — very serious matter when anybody dies, when  32 any of the Gitksan people die.  33 Q  So it didn't matter if he was a chief or not, the same  34 thing would take place, the xjagwinsxw?  35 A  Yes, it still — there is nothing going on and there  36 is no — any kind of sports going on, playing.  The  37 people — our people don't do this, like what the  38 white people do, they — they have sports and run  39 around and they have dances and they have — coming in  40 and out of the liquor store, running around, this is  41 not our way when there is a death within our — in our  42 people — in the village.  43 Q  When a chief dies nowadays, how is his death  44 announced?  45 A  They just tell each others and when there is an  46 invitation for the smoke feast.  This is the reason  47 why we have the smoke feast.  All the plans of the 244  S. Williams (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Plant  1 house members of that dead person will be announced at  2 the smoke feast, what it — the things that they are  3 going to do, where they are going to have a feast and  4 what time they are going to have the funeral and all  5 these things.  6 Q  So that the plan — I was going to ask you about that.  7 So the plans that are told to the house members at the  8 smoke feast include where they are going to have the  9 funeral feast and matters like that?  10 MR. GRANT:  Just a second, I think you may have misheard the  11 answer which may have affected — my note was that all  12 the plans of the house members of the dead person are  13 announced at the feast, and then you said all the  14 plans are announced to the house members of the smoke  15 feast.  So I think you —  16 MR. PLANT:  Yes.  In fact, in examination in chief, the words  17 that he used were "all the plans are told to the  18 house," that's where I took those words from.  19 A  No.  20 MR. GRANT:  I don't — was that in the context of the smoke  21 feast or —  22 MR. PLANT:  23 Q  Yes.  24 Now that we've lost the train of thought, could  25 you tell me, please, Gwis gyen, what kind of plans are  26 told — or made at the smoke feast?  27 A  After the death of the chief they would have a smoke  28 feast, and the members of the former chief that has  29 died, the members tell of their plans to the guests  30 that are at the smoke feast.  And after the smoke  31 feast, then the members of the house which we call  32 Teets, is sent out to different village for invitation  33 for the burial of the chief.  34 Q  Thank you.  What are the — what are the plans, the  35 kinds of things that are planned?  36 A  They tell of the — what time the funeral will be and  37 they also tell of where the Teets are going to go.  38 Q  Now, I want to take you back again to the death of  39 your grandfather, Sam Gwis gyen.  I think you've  40 already told me there was a smoke feast in Gitwingax-  41 Was there also a funeral feast for Sam Gwis gyen?  42 MR. GRANT:  In Gitwingax?  43 MR. PLANT:  44 Q   In Gitwingax?  45 A  Yes.  They had the smoke feast and they also have a  46 funeral feast.  47 Q  And where was Sam Gwis gyen buried? UI.U'^I.^^WWItHPIAWIUllUUUUWPgWWWUlJtJl.W.JUU'gWgW^PfWW  245  S. Williams (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Plant  1 A  Gitwingax.  2 Q  You told us about — you told us in answer to Mr.  3 Grant's question about the ownership of the village of  4 Gitwingax.  Now I want to ask you about a part of the  5 village, the cemetery.  Is the cemetery owned by all  6 of the chiefs or just some of them, or who owns the  7 cemetery land, according to Gitksan law?  8 A  It belongs to the people of the Gitwingax.  9 Q  Now, as I understand it, you were about ten years old  10 when you were chosen to be Gwis gyen.  Do you know why  11 you were chosen to be chief?  12 A  My — I don't know how many times I've told you this,  13 but my uncle, James Ryan, was supposed to be Gwis  14 gyen.  He was a minister in a church and he did not  15 want to take the name when my grandfather died, and  16 this is why they chose me, I was the one that will be  17 seating at — on this chair.  18 Q  Would your mother or her sisters, Marianne or Eva,  19 have been eligible to take the name?  20 A  Not my mother.  21 Q  Why is that?  22 A  She is a woman.  23 Q  Now, I've heard it said that in the olden times when  24 the chief wanted to say something at a feast, he  25 would — he would not say it himself but he would pick  26 a spokesperson, because the chief was not supposed to  27 speak himself at feasts.  Have you ever heard that?  28 A  Crazy.  How many times did I tell this man that this  29 was — that this was — what he said was true.  My  30 grandfather told me that — like I am the chief and I  31 have a galdim algyax which means the spokesperson  3 2 beside me.  And when I took that name I had a galdim  33 algyax because I was — I didn't know enough and I  34 didn't do enough and I wasn't fit to talk yet.  35 Q  And I'm sorry if you have told us this before, but if  36 you have — if you have, I've forgotten.  Who was your  37 galdim algyax?  38 A  Solomon Bryant, *Nii T'aam Lax ooks.  39 MR. GRANT: Just go off the record for a moment, please.  40 MR. PLANT:  All right.  41 (OFF THE RECORD DISCUSSION)  42 MR. PLANT:  43 Q      Was  Solomon Bryant's mother  Marianne,   Sima Diiks?  44 A      Yes,   it is.  45 MR. GRANT:  For the record, on Exhibit 6 there is a  46 typographical error.  47 MR. PLANT:  That's exactly right. 2 46  S. Williams (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Plant  1  MR. GRANT:  2  MR. PLANT:  3  Q  4  5  6  7  8  A  9  10  11  12  Q  13  14  15  16  17  A  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  Q  30  31  A  32  33  34  35  36  Q  37  A  38  Q  39  A  40  Q  41  42  43  A  44  45  Q  46  47  A  That's a typo error, I just want to be clear.  Well, now I want to ask you some questions about —  some more questions about feasts.  Do you remember if  the feast — well, let me start with this: Was it the  funeral feast where the announcement was made that you  would be taking the name Gwis gyen?  This is when they put me on the chair.  And after this  I put a stone, a gravestone for my grandfather in, and  this is when I really sat on my father's seat —  grandfather's seat.  When you say that you sat on your grandfather's seat,  in those days did people sit in a feast hall — well,  first of all, let me ask you this: Was this feast —  at the feast at which you took the name Gwis gyen, was  that inside or outside?  It — it's in the house, we don't have it outside.  The seat of the chief is very important, we don't  leave that outside. We have great respect handling  the seat of the chief and this is — this seat holds  all the laws of our people, and this is why we look at  it and we handle it carefully, and this is where the  chief sits.  All the other chiefs have their seats,  and I'm not the only one that has this.  All the head  chiefs have their own seats that they take care, and ,  this is where the laws are contained and they look  after it.  And Xamlaxyeltxw, take him for instance, he  has his own seat in Kitwancool.  Was there a special building in Gitwingax in those  days where feasts were held?  In the — a long time ago the chiefs have their  individual houses, but today it's the community hall.  But if I was to put up a feast today I will call it my  house, and people will say the — they are entering  Gwis gyen's house.  Where was the funeral feast for Sam Gwis gyen?  How many times I going to tell you?  I haven't asked —  I just tell you a little while ago.  Well, I'm sorry, I don't have a note for the answer  and you have to tell me again.  It was in a house, but  was it — it wasn't in the community hall?  We not bury him in the house, we buried him in the  ground.  I'm asking you about the feast, Mr. Williams, the  feast?  You want to go outside? I'm going to get mad. 247  S. Williams (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Plant  1 Q  Well, if you —  2 MR. GRANT:  He did tell you — he did tell you where that feast  3 was held.  You are asking where the funeral feast of  4 Sam Gwis gyen was?  5 MR. PLANT:  Yes.  6 MR. GRANT:  Yes, he did tell you that it was held at Gitwingax-  7 MR. PLANT:  8 Q  Yes, I know that.  I want to know whether it was held  9 in a house, and if so, what house.  Because he has  10 told me that in the olden times, the feast — the  11 chiefs had the feasts in their own houses, and he said  12 that nowadays they are in the community hall.  And I  13 think, Mr. Williams, you'll agree with me that the  14 community hall wasn't there in 1915 when your  15 grandfather, Sam Gwis gyen died.  Was that feast held  16 in a long house in Gitwingaxr the funeral feast?  17 A  Frederick Benson had a large house, it's about the  18 size of the hall and this is what we used.  19 MR. GRANT:  Can we go off the record for a minute please?  20 Witness has indicated he would like a break.  21 MR. PLANT:  All right.  22 (BRIEF ADJOURNMENT TAKEN)  23 MR. PLANT:  24 Q  Mr. Williams, which clan was the host clan at the  25 funeral feast for Sam Gwis gyen?  26 A  We were the ones that put on the feast at Gisk'aast. ..-■  27 Gwis gyen is my grandfather.  28 Q  Which clan acted as the 'nii dil at this feast? Was  29 it the frog clan?  30 A  Gwagl'lo.  He is a frog, from the frog clan.  31 Q  When your house hosts a feast, I understand that you  32 as the chief of the house have to put up money to pay  33 expenses and to buy food and materials, and — to give  34 to the other chiefs.  I want to ask you a question  35 about that.  Is that a correct statement?  36 A  Yes, I did that when my father — grandfather died,  37 and I've been doing this anytime when one of my house  3 8 members passes on.  39 Q  And have you been to a feast where you as Gwis gyen  40 have received money or food or materials from another  41 clan?  42 A  Yes.  If they want — they invite me to go, I will go  43 there.  44 Q  You told us in answer to Mr. Grant's question, that at  45 times you have two or three feasts through the year,  46 and I want to know if you were referring there to Gwis  47 gyen's house having two to three feasts a year, or the 248  S. Williams (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Plant  1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  MR.  MR.  MR.  MR.  MR.  MR.  MR.  GisJi'aast clan in Gitsequkla?  A  Yes, I told you once before that when Gwis gyen holds  a feast, the clan of the GisJi'aast always comes and  help us out.  And we do the same thing, if any of the  GisK'aast are having feasts, we go and help them too.  Q  You told us about Indian doctors who cure or heal the  sick.  Are there any such doctors alive today?  A  I don't know if there is any — any old Halayts that  are still alive today.  Q  You told us about sisatxw.  You said that this was  secret in the ancient society.  Did the Gitksan  themselves have secret societies?  GRANT:  Just a second.  PLANT:  Just a second?  GRANT:  Yes, just a moment before your question is -  translated, Mr. Plant.  Could you read that question  back, please.  PLANT:  No, let's not do that, let's just ask it again.  You  said that sisatxw was secret in the ancient society.  Those were the words that appear in the transcript of  what you said, and my question is, did the Gitksan  have secret societies?  GRANT:  Well it's a non sequitur, but I don't object.  PLANT:  Sorry what — what was your comment?  GRANT:  I said it is a non sequitur, but I don't object.  You are introducing him to the concept of sisatxw and.  then you are introducing him to the concept of secret  societies.  If you don't get an answer that fits your  question you have no one to blame but yourself because  of the way you've introduced the question.  Oh, I see.  Well then forget what I said about  MR. PLANT:  sisatxw, if that is a non sequitur.  Just tell me  this, Mr. Williams, did the Gitksan have something  called secret societies?  THE INTERPRETER:  Secret societies? I'm sorry, I don't think we  MR.  have a word for secret society.  PLANT:  Okay.  Were there groups of people who carried on  certain activities that did them in private, that  weren't within the house or clan? I'm afraid I don't  know what the Gitksan term for secret society is.  MR. GRANT:  Just —  MR. PLANT: Well, if there is a term that — that will assist in  this line of questioning that you have access to, Mr.  Grant, I would be grateful for it.  MR. GRANT: Well, no — no, I don't.  I'm just — if I — I just  wonder if maybe we could — if it's possible for you  to leave this area for the moment and go to another 249  S. Williams (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Plant  1  2  3  4  MR.  PLANT:  5  MR.  GRANT:  6  MR.  PLANT:  7  MR.  GRANT:  8  9  MR.  PLANT:  10  MR.  GRANT:  11  12  MR.  PLANT:  13  Q  14  15  16  17  18  A  19  20  21  Q  22  A  23  Q  24  25  26  27  A  28  Q  29  30  A  31  Q  32  33  34  A  35  36  37  Q  38  39  MR.  GRANT:  40  MR.  PLANT:  41  Q  42  A  43  44  Q  45  46  47  area and then I would try to inquire about that later,  and maybe talk to you about it before tomorrow morning  because you'll still be in cross tomorrow.  All right.  And  then there may be  a  term  that would  —  Yes.  — that would avoid confusion.  We'll — so is that  agreeable?  Yes, that's agreeable.  And then you can talk to me before we commence  tomorrow morning.  Yes.  Now we are going to leave that area, Mr.  Williams.  You told us about a deer hunting trip that  you went on with Elijah Turner and Fred Howard.  Can  you tell me when that was?  You are talking to me about the question that you were  asking me about sisatxw, that's the part of it, and we  went there about 40 years ago.  What house is Fred Howard in?  Nika teen.  He's from Hazelton, Gitan'maaxs.  You've told us that this deer hunting trip took place  on Gwis gyen's territory.  Was Fred — did Fred  Howard — was he invited to come along with you on  that trip?  Yes, he was invited.  Did he have any other right by Gitksan law to be on  your territory?  No, he doesn't.  Throughout your life, have you invited people onto  your territory to go hunting with you from time to  time?  Yes, I will invite them on my territory if I want them  to come with me.  And if they are my friends, then I  will invite them to come with me.  Have you practised sisatxw since the time of that trip  with Fred Johnson and Elijah Turner?  Fred Howard.  I'm sorry, Fred Howard and Elijah Turner?  Yes, I know how it's done.  I — I will invite you for  about a month and then we will go through the sisatxw.  Now we are here at one of those communication  problems, because my question was, "Have you practised  sisatxw since then," and the answer that I heard was,  "Yes, I know how it's done." And I really do — I 250  S. Williams (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Plant  1 already know that he knows how it's done because he  2 told us that when Mr. Grant asked him, and he told us  3 about what happened on a deer hunting trip with Elijah  4 Turner and Fred Howard, and I want to ask again,  5 whether you, Mr. Williams, have actually practised  6 sisatxw since then?  7 A  Yes, I've did this after I — what happened was I  8 had — I went trapping with 'Niitsxw and I had 12  9 traps — I had 12 traps and so did 'Niitsxw, and I  10 caught ten marten and he only caught two martens.  11 This was after I went through this sisatxw.  And we —  12 we went on and he caught four and I caught 11.  I went  13 through the sisatxw and that is the reason why I  14 caught so much.  15 What I did was I bathed myself for four straight  16 days, and I would lie on the — this side of my wife  17 for four days, and after that I would move back to the  18 other side where I was.  This was done throughout a  19 month.  When I am going through with the sisatxw, I'm  20 not supposed to be sitting down inside the house, I'm  21 supposed to be out on my territory, and I come back  22 and then I do the same thing over again.  23 And then I went out with Elijah and Freddy Howard,  24 and this is what I mentioned before, what happened.  25 Them — Freddy and Elijah were behind me and I seen  26 this squirrel running up to the tree and I pointed' at  27 that squirrel to show, and the squirrel just dropped  28 and — dropped to the ground.  I told Elijah, "Don't  29 touch that, don't touch that squirrel,"  so we just  30 left it there.  And we went up to this hill.  When we  31 got on top of this hill we seen the deer tracks, and  32 as we were looking at the deer tracks, a grouse flew  33 up, and I — I was showing it to them — Elijah, and  34 then the grouse started flapping its wings and then it  3 5 fell to the ground.  When this happened, what usually  36 happens is a person would pick this animal that  37 dropped and they would cut it on the centre, and this  38 is known as K'ooja.  And they — they keep the — the  39 flesh of the animal, they dry it.  And the person that  40 does this is dangerous, and this is the reason why I  41 didn't cut the animal.  42 Q  You told us about a trapping expedition with 'Niitsxw.  43 Was that also on your territory?  44 A  It belonged to Gwaans and 'Niitsxw.  45 Q  Is that the territory on the other side of the ridge  46 from Gwis gyen's territory, close to the village of  47 Gitsequkla? 251  S. Williams (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Plant  1 A  Gwaans' territory is far from Gwis gyen's territory.  2 Q  Which of Gwaans' — is there a name for the territory  3 that you were on?  4 A  Xsi 'will luu negwit.  5 Q  I want to ask you some questions about traplines now.  6 When you were asking Mr. — when you were answering  7 Mr. Grant's questions, you said that the reason why  8 you registered your land, "was because the game warden  9 said that the land that is registered is not supposed  10 to be touched by anyone."  11 Now, the question I want to ask you is, was there  12 a game warden who ever said that to you, yourself, and  13 I'll give you a reference from the transcript, Madam  14 Interpreter.  15 MR. GRANT:  Which volume?  16 MR. PLANT:  Two, page 103, it's that sentence that begins "The  17 reason why."  18 MR. GRANT: Which line?  19 MR. PLANT:  I think it's line 12, thereabouts.  20 MS.   KOENIGSBERG:     Ten.  21 MR.   PLANT:  22 Q  What I would like is for Mr. Williams to be refreshed,  23 have his recollection refreshed by that statement.  24 A  Yes, I remember this and it's true.  25 Q  Who was the game warden that said — well, let me,ask  26 you this again: Was there a game warden who said .that  27 to you?  28 A  I've never registered any of my territories.  My  29 family went through a will and Gordon Johnson is the  30 one that registered his territory.  This is what the  31 game warden told Gordon Johnson, that if he registered  32 his land that there would be nobody trespassing on  33 this land, and this is what Gordon told me.  They're  3 4 having meetings about this too in Kitwancool today.  35 Q  When did Gordon Johnson tell you that this is what the  36 game warden had said to him?  37 A  He tells me about it almost every fall when we go out.  38 I usually go out with him.  I seen the — I went up  39 with him to the — to his territory at G_aks bax skit,  40 and I seen there was just clear-cutting, like bald  41 head.  The same with Jim Fowler's territory, his cabin  42 is still standing there and there is no trees around  43 it, it was all taken off.  And he registered his land.  44 Q  Is Jim Fowler a Kitwancool — from a Kitwancool house?  45 A  Yes.  46 Q  And is his trapping territory in the territory that  47 belongs to the Kitwancool chiefs? 252  S. Williams (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Plant  1 A  Yes.  It's next — close to Malii's territory.  2 Q  And Malii is Gordon Johnson?  3 A  Yes, it is.  4 Q  And so the territory —  5 A  It can't be four, can't be three Malii, only one.  6 Q  The territory that you go — or have gone out to with  7 Gordon Johnson to — I think you said every fall or  8 almost every fall, is that Malii's territory?  9 A  Yes, that's his territory, and we go there.  He is one  10 of my best friends and I always go with him.  Whenever  11 I go some place he comes with me.  12 Q  I'm going to take the afternoon adjournment at this  13 point.  14 MR. GRANT:  Okay.  I propose we will adjourn at three o'clock.  15 MR. PLANT:  That's fine.  Let's take an adjournment now,- please.  16  17 (PROCEEDINGS ADJOURNED AT 2:40 p.m.)  18 (PROCEEDINGS RECONVENED AT 2:45 p.m.)  19  20 MR. PLANT:  21 Q  Gwis gyen, when you were answering Mr. Grant's  22 questions, you talked about forestry taking all the  23 trees from your territories, and you've said, "I could  24 show you examples on my territories." Which of your  25 territories were you referring to?  26 A  It's above Gitsequkla which is known as Xsu'wii  >,  ...  27 gwanks.  They started at Xsu'wii gwanks and they went  28 half-way through my territory.  29 Q  Is that the territory which you refer to in your  30 affidavit as Luu Skaiyansit?  31 A  Yes.  Yes, it is a territory, it's.below the territory  32 where they logged it out.  33 Q  The logging —  34 A  Below Luu Skaiyansit.  35 Q  But on your territory?  36 A  Yes, it's inside my territory.  37 Q  I want to show you a map now — well, before I do  38 that, the map that I'm going to show you, Gwis gyen,  39 is a map that was attached to your interrogatories.  40 And I'm producing — putting — ask that it be put in  41 front of you, and I'm producing the affidavit which is  42 the first two pages of the interrogatories response.  43 And if you turn to the second page you'll see that  44 that's your signature there?  45 A  Yes, that's me.  46 Q  And do you remember — it would be a little bit over a  47 year ago — signing this document in the presence of 253  S. Williams (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Plant  1 Mr. Grant?  2 A  Yes, I know.  3 Q  And attached to this affidavit was — or is a list of  4 questions and your answers to them?  5 A  Yes, I remember.  6 Q       And you see,   for   example,   that the first question,  7 "When were you  born?"    And the answer,   "July 3rd,  8 1907"?  9 A  Yes, that's correct.  10 Q  Now, the question 59 — actually, question 58 which is  11 at the bottom of page 11.  The question is, "Does your  12 house," and that's the house of Gwis gyen, "claim  13 ownership of or jurisdiction over any particular  14 territory?" And you answer, "Yes." And of course  15 you've been telling us in your evidence about the  16 territories of Gwis gyen.  Perhaps you should  17 translate that.  18 A  This is the — I'm talking about the territory that's  19 been passed from generation to generation and it still  20 does today.  21 Q  And in the answer — question 59C and answer are as  22 follows:  "If so, what are the boundaries of your  23 house's territory?" And the answer is, "See the  24 map" — "See map which is attached as schedule C.  25 This is Gwis gyen's territory." Do you see that  26 question and answer?  27 And the map that I'm placing before you now is the  28 map that was attached to the interrogatories, and I'd  29 ask you to look at that for a minute, Gwis gyen, and  30 tell me if you can remember if that was the map that  31 was attached to the interrogatories affidavit that  32 we've just looked at.  33 A  Yes, I know.  It's the one I know of about this map  34 here.  3 5 Q  Okay.  36 MR. GRANT:  It's labelled "Draft Copy", for the record, and I  37 think this notation on the bottom right is the  38 notation added by the defendants, that is this stamp  39 here.  40 MR. PLANT:  Oh, yes, there is a label.  41 MR. GRANT:  Says this is Schedule C to what should be  42 interrogatories response of Gwis gyen, et cetera.  43 That's additional data by you.  44 MR. PLANT:  Right.  I would like to have this map marked as the  45 next exhibit, please.  46  47 254  S.   Williams   (for  Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr.   Plant  1 (EXHIBIT 9   FOR  IDENTIFICATION -  Map attached  as  2 Schedule  C  to  the  Interrogatories  Response  of   Stanley  3 Williams  dd.   01/30/87)  4  5 MR.   PLANT:  6 Q       Now,   I  just want  to get  oriented on  this map  to make  7 sure   that you're  oriented  on  this map,   Mr.  Williams.  8 Do you see  here where Gitsequkla  is labelled?  9 A       I   know where  Gitsequkla  is,   it's  my village.  10 Q       I  know  you know where  it  is.     What  I want   to be  sure  11 is   that you are following me  on  the map.     And up  on  12 the  right  of   Gitsequkla but within  the boundary  of  13 this  territory is a  creek labelled  Xsu'will  gwanks.  14 Do you  see  that?     And  that's part of  your  territory?  15 A      Yes.  16 Q       And  then —  17 MR.   GRANT:     He  indicated yes  for  the record.  18 MR.   PLANT:     And  then  south  of   —   approximately  south  of  19 Gitsequkla —  20 MR.   GRANT:     South-east.  21 MR.    PLANT:  22 Q  — the heavy black line follows a river marked  23 Xsigyukla.  Do you see that?  24 A  Yeah  25 Q  And that's the Gitsequkla River?  26 A  Yes, I travel back and forth there. , ,  ' .  27 Q  Now, could you show me approximately where on this map  28 the logging is that you've seen on your territory?  29 A  It starts from Xsu'wii gwanks and they go about this  30 far.  I showed it to Neil, Neil came with me when we  31 went up there.  Is it proper for us to talk about this  32 when — when I have a will that is willed to the  33 family?  All these are mentioned in the will, and what  34 they did, it's just like when they go through my  35 territory taking the trees off and what — it's just  36 like stealing from my wallet.  And also the — where  37 the Red Rose Mountain is, this is where — where they  3 8 have a mine which — where they've made money on, and  39 it's just like taking the — it's just like taking  40 money from my bank account when they take these things  41 off my territory.  42 Q   Before you go on, Mr. Williams, I just want to  43 identify for the record that when you were talking  44 about the logging, you put your finger — you moved it  45 up Xsu'wii gwanks to a little creek that on this map  46 is — comes into Xsu'wii gwanks where the word W-I-I  47 is.  And then you moved your hand up to the top of 255  S.   Williams   (for  Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr.   Plant  1 that creek and  then around and back down  to Xsigyukla  2 or Gitsequkla  River.  3 And you're   talking  then —  you   told me  about   the  4 mining  on your   territory,   and  as   I  understand  it,    that  5 mining has  taken place  up at  the  top  in  the mountains  6 up at  the   top of   Xsu'wii  gwanks;   is   that  correct?  7 A      Yes,   that's —   if  you don't believe me you  can ask  8 Neil.      I went with him and you  can  see  how  far   they've  9 logged on my  territory.  10 MR.   GRANT:     Just for  the  record,   I  think before you go further,  11 I  understood   that  the witness was  pointing along  12 Xsu'wii  gwanks,   as you   said,   and  to   that  first  creek  13 that goes  south,   the  tributary within  the  territory  of  14 Xsu'wii  gwanks,   and was  pointing in  that area between  15 that  tributary  that roughly  follows parallel   to  16 Xsigyukla,   and  that's   the  area   that he was   showing  17 with his  hands,   that's what  I  recall.     So  I  just want  18 to  say  that now because   if you want any  19 clarification —   I  don't want us  to be  confused.  20 MR.   PLANT:     I  don't   think  there  is any difference between what  21 you've just  said and what  I   said.  22 MR.   GRANT:     Okay.     The  other point  that  I wanted  to  raise was  23 when —  and  I wanted  to  interject.     When Madam  24 Interpreter was   translating about   the mining,   you  25 mentioned Red Rose Mine,   I  thought  I  heard  the witness  26 say something about Roche  de Boule.     Did he  refer. ,to '  27 that mine —   to  that area  as well,   or  is   that  too far  2 8 back on  the record now?  29 THE   INTERPRETER:     I  don't  remember.  30 MR.    PLANT:  31 Q  Actually, I have that recollection.too, but we have a  3 2 general — at this point, we have nothing more than  33 that, but we have a general idea of the area at the  34 top of this creek.  And what I want to ask, just a  35 couple of more questions before we break for the day,  36 Gwis gyen.  When did you first see this logging that  37 you talked about?  3 8 A       I  seen  it  the year before,   and I went with Neil   this  39 year and  this  is when  I  seen  it again.     They've —  40 they've cleared more  than what I  first  seen before.  41 MR.   PLANT:     Okay,   that would be  a  convenient moment   to adjourn.  42 It's  after  three  o'clock so we will   start again  43 tomorrow morning.  44  45  46  47 256  S. Williams (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Plant  1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  (PROCEEDINGS ADJOURNED AT 3:05 p.m.)  I hereby certify the foregoing to be  a true and accurate transcript of the  proceedings herein transcribed to the  best of my skill and ability.  Toni Kerekes,  O.R., R.P.R.  United  Reporting  Service  Ltd. 257  S.   Williams   (for  Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr.   Plant  1 April   22,   1988  2 Hazel ton,   B.C.  3  4 (PROCEEDINGS  RECONVENED  AT 9:40   a.m.)  5  6 ALICE  SAMPSON:     Previously  sworn as   Interpreter.  7 STANLEY WILLIAMS:     Previously   sworn.  8  9 CROSS-EXAM  CONT.   BY  MR.   PLANT:  10 Q       Today  is   April  22nd,   and   I'm  continuing   the  11 cross-examination  of   Gwis   gyen,    Stanley Williams.  12 And yesterday when  I  — when we  broke   off,    I  had  13 been asking you about  —   some questions   about   this  14 map.   Exhibit 9,   and one   of   the   things   that you   told me  15 yesterday,   and you've discussed it before,   is  the  16 location  of mining activity up in  the mountains  at  the  17 top of  Xsu'wii gwanks.     And  I  have  one more question,  18 really,   arising out of   that,   and  that is   that  that  19 mining has been going on for as long as you can  20 remember —   or  rather,   the mining activity   took  place  21 a  long  time  ago,   didn't  it?  22 A       Yes,   it's  been a  long   time.  23 Q       Now,   when you  —  24 A       They  had a  cable at luu mesxw   that  it was   going down  25 to  Carnaby,   this  is   the   tram-way.  26 Q      When you  have hunted on  this  territory,   where are. .the..  27 places  that you've hunted?  2 8 A       We  hunt  for  goats  and  ground  hogs   over  here.  29 Q       Pointing   to   the mountainous  area  on  the   right-hand  3 0 side.  31   MR. GRANT:  The east side of the boundary on.Exhibit 9.  3 2    MR. PLANT:  33 Q  Yes.  I think you told us about a deer hunting  34 expedition.  Have you hunted for other animals besides  3 5 goat on this territory?  36 A  There is lot of goats there, there is lot of deers and  37 bears.  My grandfathers really used this territory for  3 8 their living.  3 9 Q  Have you ever set traplines on this territory for  40 marten or fisher?  41 A  This was where the loggers took off all the trees.  42 This is where I usually trap for marten and fisher and  43 it goes down to Xsan Gokhl, and now the trees have all  44 gone and we can't hunt fisher or marten anymore.  45 Q  Are there any beaver trapping areas on this territory?  46 A  No.  The beavers are on Guxsan's territory.  47 Q  And is that territory that lies to the south of the 258  S. Williams (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Plant  1 territory  on Exhibit 9?  2 MR.   GRANT:      South-east.  3 MR.   PLANT:  4 Q       South-east?  5 A       Yes.  6 MR. GRANT:  And just for the record, that the — that on Exhibit  7 9 there is a reference to Tam Giist down at the very  8 bottom of the map and Guxsan — the name Guxsan just  9 above it, and I think that's the area to which the  10 witness was referring.  11 MR. PLANT:  12 Q   I think it is, yes.  13 I want to ask you a few questions about the area  14 right around there, but I have one other question  15 before that.  When you have hunted and trapped on this  16 territory, Gwis gyen, have you had camp sites out on  17 the territory or have you done your trapping and  18 hunting from the village of Gitsequkla?  19 A  There is a log cabin at Xsan Gokhl, and there was —  20 there is one here, wilp cjanuuxws is called.  21 Q  Where is the cabin called wilp ganuuxws?  22 A  Right here.  23 Q   Pointing —  24 A  This is where they stay when they are hunting the  25 ground hog.  26 Q   The area that you are indicating is below lot 607.-- '..  27 A  It's around here, this area.  2 8 MR. GRANT:  Maybe we can have the witness mark that — I have a  29 red pen — if you want, with a 1.  30 MR. PLANT:  Fine.  31 THE   TRANSLATOR:     710.  32 MR.   GRANT:      Is   this   the  area?  33 THE WITNESS:     Yeah.  34 MR.   PLANT:     Write  cabin.  35 MR.   GRANT:     Okay,   I'll  write  cabin along   there  and   that's  an  36 approximate location.  37 MR.   PLANT:     Yes.  3 8 MR.   GRANT:      I wrote  cabin  in  red  on  Exhibit 9.  39 MR.   PLANT:  40 Q   Do you know which company was doing the logging on  41 your territory that you told us about?  42 A  Hobenshield.  43 Q       Does   the  Hobenshield  Company   have  a   sawmill   in  the  44 village   of   Gitwingax?  45 A       Yes.  46 Q   Now, on Exhibit 9 the -- near the bottom of the area  47 that's supposed to be your territory, there is a creek 259  S.   Williams   (for  Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr.   Plant  1 marked Xsan Gokhl.     Is   that creek where  it  comes   in  to  2 the  river marked Xsi Giist,   is   that part  of   the  3 southern boundary  of  your   territory?  4 A       Yes.     Yes,   there  is.     Yes,   this  is where   the boundary  5 is  and  this  is where Xsan  Gokhl   comes   from.  6 MR.   GRANT:     And  just for  the  record,   the witness was  pointing  in  7 the   first  part of   his  answer   to  the  dark  line which  8 partially  follows   Xsan  Gokhl,   and  then  in   the   second  9 part  to Xsan Gokhl  which leaves  that dark line.  10 MR.    PLANT:  11 Q       That's'fine.     Does  the line  follow  Xsan Gokhl   all   the  12 way up   to  the   top,   or  does   it just head  up   the  hill?  13 A       There  is  Gigukla —   there  is  the  Gigukla Mountain  14 that's  —   that's  sharp,   sticking out   there.      This   is  15 where  the  head waters  of  Xsan Gokhl   is  and  that's  16 where —  17 Q  This map shows a little lake at the top of Xsan Gokhl.  18 MR. GRANT:  At the top of one of the tributaries, the southern  19 one there?  20 MR. PLANT:  21 Q  Well, yeah.  It's — looks like Xsan Gokhl breaks into  22 two branches out around — between the two words, Xsan  23 and Gokhl, and then the northernmost tributary goes up  24 and near the top has three little branches, and down  25 to the south there is a little lake and the name there  26 is T* am wisen haalaltxwit.  I may not have pronounped'.  27 it correctly, but is there a lake, a small little lake  28 up at the top of Xsan Gokhl?  2 9 A  It's a very, very small little lake.  30 Q  It looks quite small on this map.  Is it -- does the  31 boundary go near that lake?  32 A  Yes, it does.  The top part of that lake.  33 Q   Now, this map shows that —  34 A  Bottom part, I should say.  3 5 Q   Excuse me?  36 A  Maybe I should say the bottom part of that lake going  37 on south, to the south side.  3 8 MR. GRANT:  I think what — maybe if the witness said the top  39 part, if you're geographically going — if you were  40 climbing up --  41 MR. PLANT:  Yeah.  42 MR.   GRANT:     —   then  the   top part,   probably  it's  —   it  looks   —  43 just  a minute.      It  looks   like   the  height   of  land  goes  44 up behind   that  lake  and you  can  see   that  on Exhibit 9.  45 MR. PLANT:  46 Q   This map. Exhibit 9, shows that Xsi Gitsegyukla and  47 the — I think it's a mountain that you call 260  S.   Williams   (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr.   Plant  1 Haalaltxwit,   are very close  to each other.     Is   that  2 correct?  3 A  The same, the same.  It is the same mountain but there  4 is a place that is called Haalaltxwit.  5 Q  What is that place?  Is it a — well, can you describe  6 it?  Is it the top of a hill or is it something like  7 that?  8 A  It — that whole mountain is known as Haalaltxwit.  I  9 can't take the mountains apart and separate them.  10 Q  What I was — when I was referring to a small lake a  11 minute ago, the name that I was reading from on  12 Exhibit 9 is spelled on that exhibit as T-'-A-M space  13 W-I-S-E-N space H-A-A-L-A-T-W-I-T.  Gwis gyen, having  14 looked at this map, is there any part of the location  15 of the boundary as shown on this map which you think  16 is incorrect now? And what I mean by that, is I know  17 you know where the boundary is, I want to know if this  18 map, the person who made this map has put the line in  19 the right place?  20 MR. GRANT:  Okay, in order to answer that, I think that the  21 witness — you've referred him to certain parts of the  22 map. Exhibit 9, I think you must — it's only fair to  23 the witness that you -- you will have to — or will —  24 he has to be taken around what this map says in some  25 sense.  26 MR. PLANT:  Well, I'll ask him —  27 MR. GRANT:  I must advise you that I'm instructed that this  2 8 map — the boundary on this map is identical to the  29 boundary on Exhibit 4 tab A, except for some of the  30 names, and that's what I'm instructed, and of course  31 he has identified that that was drawn on his  32 instruction.  This one, of course, was drawn over a  33 year ago and I think it's — I'm not objecting to your  34 question, I'm just saying there is a way you have to  35 do it, I think.  36 MR. PLANT:  Well, I'm trying to do it the most expeditious way I  37 can.  3 8 MR.   GRANT:     Right.     Maybe what  I've been  instructed on will   help  39 you.  40 MR. PLANT:  It appears to me, irrespective of what your  41 instructions are, that yes, indeed, Exhibit 9 is the  42 same boundary as shown on tab A —  43 MR. GRANT:  Exhibit 4.  44 MR.   PLANT:     —   of   Exhibit 4.     And perhaps   that's   sufficient,  45 because   the witness   has  already  said   that   that map,  46 Exhibit 4-A,   is  a  correct  depiction  of   his   territory.  47 MR.   GRANT:     Yeah.      That's why   I was  introducing   that 261  S.   Williams   (for  Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by  Mr.   Plant  1 instruction,   to expedite matters.  2 MR. PLANT:  3 Q  Now, Gwis gyen, you told us a lot about the travels  4 that you've made on this territory.  Can you recall  5 how old you were when you made your first trip to this  6 territory, the territory on Exhibit 9?  7 A  I stayed with my uncle, Alfred McDames, and he took me  8 up to the — to this territory and we camped half  9 ways.  And then — then we — the next day we  10 travelled along the — here, this is where we camped,  11 and this is where we were hunting the ground hogs, and  12 I was 13 at that time.  We stayed at the wilp  13 g^anuuxws.  I could not go against my grandfather' s  14 words and say something different when they have  15 showed me these boundaries, I could not extend- the  16 boundaries.  I would go on my grandfather's words.  If  17 I extended any of these boundaries on this territory,  18 I would be in great trouble with the other chiefs that  19 have territories beside — around my territory.  And I  20 would not steal anybody's territory.  21 Q  Now my recollection is that when you were describing  22 the place that you went on this first hunting expedi-  23 tion, you were following the creek Xsu'wii gwanks as  24 being the first part of the expedition, and then you  2 5 carried on down south, south-east up into the  26 mountainous country towards the cabin as being the  27 area where you had hunted ground hogs with Alfred  2 8 McDames on that trip.  Is that a relatively fair  2 9 statement?  30 MR. GRANT:  I agree that that's what the witness and the  31 interpreter pointed to.  3 2 A  There is a trail that — that goes besides the Xsu'wii  33 gwanks, and it goes to — goes to Tass Lax wii  34 aatxwit, and this is the trail we took and Neil knows  35 where it is, Neil saw this trail.  The mine that was  36 there was there when I was just a little boy.  It's  37 been there a long time.  3 8    MR. PLANT:  39 Q  And along Xsu'wii gwanks today there is a road that  40 goes up some distance up the hill, a gravel road?  41 A  The — yes, there is a gravel road.  The trucks don't  42 go up there but just the four-wheelers could get up  43 there.  44 Q   Thank you.  Now, I want to ask you some questions  45 about another territory that you travelled on.  This  46 time I want to ask you about the territory of Haakasxw  47 at a place called Xsansisnak. 262  S.   Williams   (for  Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr.   Plant  1 MR.   GRANT:     Which number?  2 MR.    PLANT:  3 Q   Territory "0" in the affidavit.  4 Could you tell me, please, what the word  5 Xsansisnak means?  6 A  In the ancient times the women used to go there and  7 they would take off their dresses which is — which we  8 call nak, and they would take a bath there.  9 Q  Now, you told us that — I think you told us that  10 Larry Wright holds the name Haakasxw today; is that  11 correct?  12 A  Yes, he's quite young.  He's the one that holds this  13 name.  14 Q  Does he live in Prince Rupert?  15 A  Yes, he lives in Rupert.  16 Q  Was he born a Gitksan person? Well, I'll start here:  17 I understand, firstly, that Larry Wright was adopted  18 by the former Haakasxw, George Milton?  19 A  Yes, he is Gitksan.  I'm not too sure, I think it's  20 his own son.  I'm not too sure on that.  21 Q  Who is saying that?  Are you saying that, or —  22 MR. GRANT:  The witness?  23 THE INTERPRETER:  Um-hmm.  24 MR. PLANT:  25 Q       You  are  not  sure but you   think   that Larry Wright  may  26 be  George  Milton's   own  son?  27 A       I   think  his  own  son.  2 8 Q       And he would have had  to  have been adopted  into   the  29 house  to  follow  a Gitksan law?  30 A       Yes,   they adopt  him in  Haakasxw.  31 MR.   PLANT:     It's  okay,   I  don't  think it  really needs  any  32 clarification.  33 MR. GRANT:  It's — the only point is, just for the record, I  34 did object to the — to the delivery of the  3 5 genealogies of — relating to chiefs of other  36 territories, and we argued that before the Chief  37 Justice.  And one of the understandings -- I could and  3 8 we were ordered to deliver them.  One of the  39 understandings I had and one of the things I said was  40 that this witness — I did not want this witness to be  41 expected to know all of those genealogies, that is, of  42 those other houses.  And my recollection was that  43 counsel for the defendant says that was not the reason  44 that they wanted them, to cross-examine and put the  45 membership of numerous houses, but rather for their  46 own research purposes.  I'm just setting that out for  47 the record.  I'm not objecting at this point, but if 263  S. Williams (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Plant  1 you are going into depth in all of the genealogies, I  2 think that it's a little onerous with this witness,  3 and it was on the basis of that assumption that I had  4 not — that I operated in terms of this witness.  And  5 this witness has not looked at all of these  6 genealogies or — I haven't discussed any of these  7 other genealogies with him at the time of his  8 preparation.  9 So there may be — the reason I say that is there  10 may be things that he cannot remember and he has not  11 been informed of based on the assurances I had from  12 counsel.  So I want you to know that, and if there is  13 information you want, I think it's only fair if you  14 are going in depth that you allow him the opportunity  15 to think about it and to refresh his memory about  16 these numerous other things.  17 MR. PLANT:  Well, as in all cases, when that — when I'm  18 examining Mr. Williams, I'm examining him on his own  19 knowledge.  20 MR. GRANT:  Oh, yes.  21 MR. PLANT:  And I'm not sure how any research he has conducted  22 would create admissible evidence in any event, because  23 it would all be hearsay.  24 MR. GRANT:  It's not research.  I'm saying this witness — this  25 witness has given extensive evidence about territories  26 and everything else.  This witness is elderly and I  ..,  27 want him to have an opportunity to think about it.  2 8 That if he is going to be asked — I mean if he is  29 getting these questions cold on a whole bunch of  3 0 genealogies, then I think that the assurances that  31 were made by the counsel for the defendants was one  32 that I was entitled to rely on.  33 MS. KOENIGSBERG:  Well, just for the record, I don't think I  34 ever gave any assurance nor did anyone else on behalf  3 5 of the Attorney-General of Canada, that we would not  36 cross-examine on any information received in the  37 genealogies.  Having said that, it is — it is true  38 and it remains true that the major reason why  3 9 obtaining the genealogies in a timely fashion before a  40 witness is going to give evidence on them, is so that  41 we can conduct our research.  And I think I can also  42 add, if it's of any assistance to my friend, that it  43 would never be expected that any witness -- and that  44 applies to this witness -- would know, cold, all of  45 the genealogies for all of the houses on which he is  46 giving evidence on their territories.  And that goes  47 without saying.  He is not expected to know it cold, 264  S. Williams (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Plant  1 if he did it would be quite remarkable.  2 MR. GRANT:  Well it's not — it's a question that he hasn't had  3 a chance to think about it, that's why I'm saying  4 that, because I never discussed it with him prior to  5 his direct and that's why I want to put it on the  6 record I was operating on certain assurances, or my  7 understanding of those assurance.  But the one  8 question is not —  9 MR. PLANT:  I know.  Firstly, the one question is not  10 objectionable.  Secondly, I don't recall the exact  11 terms of the assurance.  Thirdly, you led evidence at  12 some considerable length about the succession through  13 chieftainship of many of the people we are talking  14 about.  I don't plan on examining much more on this  15 particular area, I have the witness' answer.  I was  16 planning on moving onto a different area.  I would  17 like to do that now.  18 MR. GRANT:  Fine, go ahead.  19 MR. PLANT:  20 Q   Chief Gwis gyen, did. you obtain Larry Wright's  21 permission to describe and speak of his territory at  22 Xsansisnak?  23 A  Yes.  He phoned me and he wanted me to tell about his  24 territory in court.  25 Q  Can you recall when that telephone conversation took  26 place, and by that, I mean are we talking about a, _  27 telephone conversation that took place in the last few  2 8            weeks, or a telephone conversation that took place a  2 9 year or two years ago?  30 MR. GRANT:  Just a moment.  What's the relevance of that?  31 MR. PLANT:  I'm cross-examining this witness.  32 MR. GRANT:  What is the relevance of when he was instructed?  33 MR. PLANT:  Well, are you objecting to the question?  34 MR. GRANT:  I'm objecting.  3 5 MR. PLANT:  Okay, well let's carry on then.  When was the  36 telephone call, please?  37 MR. GRANT:  I would like you —  38 MR. PLANT:  I don't have an obligation to state relevance, but  3 9 the witness has sworn that he was informed by Larry  40 Wright.  Now I'm entitled to cross-examine a witness  41 on credibility.  I want to know when the conversation  42 took place.  It's my suggestion that asking a witness  43 when a conversation that he swears took place is  44 entirely relevant on cross-examination.  If he says he  45 went hunting on his territory it may be relevant to  46 know whether it happened a week ago or ten years ago.  47 MR. GRANT:  That's different. 265  S. Williams (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Plant  1 MR. PLANT:  If he says he had a conversation it may be relevant  2 to know whether he had the conversation a day before  3 he swore the affidavit or five years ago.  It may have  4 been a general power of attorney under Gitksan law to  5 represent Larry Wright in all matters affecting his  6 territory.  We don't have any idea of that yet.  7 MR. GRANT:  That's not what you've asked.  8 MR. PLANT:  I've asked the first question that may lead to that.  9 I am -- I'm desirous of proceeding.  You have your  10 objection, it's on the record.  11 MR. GRANT:  Go ahead.  12 MR. PLANT:  13 Q   Now, Mr. Williams, I was asking you if you could  14 recall when the conversation with Larry Wright had  15 taken place.  And again, I mean — I don't want you to  16 give me the exact date, I want to know whether it took  17 place a few weeks ago or whether it took place a few  18 years ago or a year ago, that kind of thing?  19 A  I — he phoned me before I got hurt.  I got hurt  20 December 8th, 1987.  I could not tell the adaawk of  21 this territory, and all I could tell is the — is the  22 boundary, where the boundaries are.  I could not go in  23 and tell the insides of this territory.  It is not my  24 business to tell what is inside that boundary.  25 Q  Let me see if I am understanding what you are telling  26 me.  Did Larry Wright give you permission to describe .  27 the boundaries but not to tell the adaawk and what's  2 8 inside the territory?  2 9 A  He told me to point out the boundaries of this  30 territory and that's all he wanted me to do.  And it  31 is our law not — of not telling somebody else's  32 adaawk.  33 Q  Now in your affidavit, which has been marked as — I  34 think it's Exhibit 2 on this proceeding.  You say that  3 5 you have heard this territory, Xsansisnak territory  36 described in the feast as being owned by the house of  37 Haakasxw.  That's in paragraph 107.  3 8 A  Yes, that's true.  3 9 Q  When have you heard the Xsansisnak territory described  40 in the Gitksan feast as being owned by the house of  41 Haakasxw?  42 A  I could not tell you the exact number of times,  43 because each time Haakasxw has a feast, they will  44 mention this territory.  It's not only Haakasxw that  45 does this.  Each time a different house, the head  46 chief tells of the description of the territory and  47 what comes from the territory and what is there in the 266  S. Williams (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Plant  1 territory.  And this is — this is how the nieces and  2 nephews learn of their territory by listening to these  3 chiefs describe it.  4 Q  Can you —  5 A  At the feast.  6 Q  Can you recall the last occasion at which you heard  7 the territory — this territory of Haakasxw described  8 at a feast?  9 A  Yes.  I remember when George Milton died and they  10 described this territory, and then when Larry took the  11 name.  12 Q  Was that the same feast?  You said when George Milton  13 died and when Larry took the name.  Were those two  14 separate occasions or was that one occasion?  15 A  Yes, that was the feast which is known as Di yee'm  16 gyet.  This was the feast that — it was the same  17 feast that Larry took the name.  And they are going to  18 have another feast when there is a pole raising or  19 when there is a stone raising, and this hasn't  2 0 happened yet.  21 Q  Can you recall who it was that spoke of the Xsansisnak  22 territory at this feast?  23 A  I forgot.  There was a lot of chiefs that spoke.  24 Q  Are there occasions when you are called upon in the  25 feast hall —  26 MR. GRANT:  Just a moment. '..  27 MR. PLANT:  2 8 Q  — to speak about territories other than Gwis gyen's  29 territories, because of your knowledge?  30 A  When there is a feast, if you are from another village  31 and you attend a feast and they are — there's — our  3 2 law is that you have to take your turn speaking.  You  33 can't just stand up and start, you have to wait for  34 the chiefs that supposed to be first to speak.  Take  35 me for an example, Gwis gyen.  If I was to host a  36 feast, I would say something first and then somebody  37 else that's supposed to be first to speak after I  3 8 speak would stand up and speak.  We — we each take  39 our turns in order.  My 'nii dil is the one that is  40 supposed to speak first.  I'm from Gitsequkla and I  41 will speak first and then my 'nii dil speaks and then  42 Gitwingax, Kitwancool, Gitan'maaxs, Kispiox, those are  43 the order.  And this — if it was Kitwancool that puts  44 up a feast, then the Kitwancool chiefs will speak  45 first and then Gitwingax and then Gitsequkla, and  46 these are the order what they — how they have their  47 speeches of.  If — if somebody jumps up and speaks 267  S. Williams (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Plant  1 when it is not his turn, then he might offend the  2 chief that is supposed to stand up and speak, and then  3 right here, this — our law has been broken in the  4 feast house.  5 Q       Do  some  of   the chiefs  of  Gitsequkla and Gitwingax  come  .6 to you from time  to  time for advice about where   the  7 boundaries are?  8 A  Yes, I've been on the territory so many times.  I went  9 with a lot of elders that showed me these — they knew  10 that I have to have this training.  When they ask me  11 to go, they would ask me any time and I would be ready  12 to go with these elders.  And today when they ask me  13 about their territories, I tell them about it.  I  14 don't do this very much today when I broke my hip.  I  15 only tell them where it is, I don't travel with them.  16 Q  Now, when you went on the trip with Abraham Fowler and  17 your father to Xsansisnak, was this before or after  18 your marriage to Fanny?  19 A  Not yet I wasn't.  I went with Abraham Fowler and my  20 father, I was quite young, and we were on — we were  21 at the Xsansisnak territory.  And after we set our  22 traps, in between time waiting for our traps, before  23 we go back to — to see our traps, in between that  24 time we went just on a tour towards Copper River.  25 When we were at Xsansisnak, Abraham Fowler took his  26 clothes off and jumped into the water. '.  27 Q  I'm sorry, he jumped into the water at?  2 8 A  At Xsansisnak.  The Copper River is called Xsi Tsa  29 Muutsax.  30 Q  Xsi Tsa Muutsax?  31 A  Xsi Tsa Muutsax.  32 MR. GRANT:  It's on page 26 under rivers under paragraph 105.  33 MR. PLANT:  34 Q  There is one part of the answer that you just gave me  35 that I'm not clear about.  Were the traps that were  36 being set, were they being set on the Xsansisnak  37 territory of Haakasxw?  3 8 A  It's on the Lax SKiik's territory, Abraham Fowler.  We  39 just went on a tour towards Xsansisnak, and this is  40 when they showed me Haakasxw's territory.  41 Q  You told us that — when Mr. Grant was asking you  42 questions, you told us about travelling down to Walter  43 Wright's cabin on Xsi Tsa Muutsax.  Was there another  44 cabin on this Xsansisnak territory? Were you shown  45 another cabin on this territory besides Walter  46 Wright's cabin?  47 MR. GRANT:  When they went down there you mean? 26 8  S. Williams (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Plant  1 MR. PLANT:  2 Q  Yes, on this trip?  3 A  There was a house which is known as wilp T'elxan, it's  4 a lean-to which was there.  We took our time  5 travelling because we were just travelling for  6 pleasure, and we came to a place where there was a  7 cabin, it was on the other side of Xsi Tsa Muutsax,  8 and my father told me and Abraham said this was Walter  9 Wright's.  10 Q       And  I   think you  have —   you  told  us   that Walter Wright  11 was  a  Gitsilis person,   but  I want  to be  sure  that  12 that's your  recollection?  13 A       Yes,   he  is  one.     He  is  the head chief  of   the  Gitsilis  14 people.     I  remember —   I  know  his  chief's  name but  it  15 slip my mind   right now.      'Niista  hukxw.  16 Q       Now,   does Walter Wright's  cabin —  or  it may  not be  17 there anymore,   but when you were  there,   were you   told  18 anything about   the boundary between   the  Gitsilis  19 people and  the  Gitksan people  about —  and  in  relation  20 to  the  location of Walter Wright's  cabin?  21 A       They  told me  that —   they  said  this  is  the boundary  22 between Gitwingax and  the Gitsilis people  right where  23 Walter Wright's  cabin was,   and  that is   the boundary  24 for   these   two nations.  25 Q       When you've been  giving your  evidence  about  26 boundaries,   Gwis  gyen,   you've been  speaking  in '..  27 Gitksan,   but you  usually use   the word   "boundary"   in  28 English.     Is   there  a Gitksan word  for boundary?  29 I was  going  to  suggest  that we   take  an adjournment  30 now,   if   he would like  some  time  to  think about  it.  31 A       I  forgot.  32 MR. GRANT:  May we go off the record.  33 (BRIEF ADJOURNMENT TAKEN)  34 MR. PLANT:  35 Q       Before we  took   this brief   adjournment,   Gwis  gyen,    I  36 asked you about whether  there was  a  Gitksan word  for  37 boundary.     And  now   that you've   had an  opportunity   to  3 8 think about it,   has  a word come  to your mind?  39 A       It could be described as  Gidii gwayihl  yip and   'Naa  40 'yis'yeejaa.  41 MR.   GRANT:     Do you  have numbers  for   those?  42 THE  TRANSLATOR:      'Naa   'yis'yeejaa   is  number 340   on   the word  43 list.  44 MR. GRANT:  340?  45 MS. KOENIGSBERG:  340?  46 A  Another — another one you could describe as hli  47 daaxhl lax yip. 269  S.  Williams   (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr.   Plant  1 MS.   KOENIGSBERG:     I'm  sorry,    I've   only  got 3 40.  2 MR.   PLANT:     There are   three.  3 MS.   KOENIGSBERG:      I   know.  4 MR.   GRANT:     She's  just  getting  them down,   she's  just writing  5 them down.  6 MS.   KOENIGSBERG:     Okay.  7 MR.   GRANT:      So what  is  —  8 MR.   PLANT:     Perhaps you can assist by  reading  the  three  and  9 spelling  them,   please,   Ms.   Stevens.  10 THE  TRANSLATOR:     Okay.     Gidii  gwayihl   yip,   G-I-D-I-I   space  11 G-W-A-Y-I-H-L space Y-I-P.     'Naa   'yis'yeejaa  is  number  12 340   and  it's  spelt   '-N-A-A space  13 '-Y-I-S-'-Y-E-E-J-A-A.     Hli  daaxhl  lax yip  is   H-L-I  14 space  D-A-A-X-H-L  space  L-A-X-underlined  space  Y-I-P.  15 MR.   PLANT:  16 Q  You've given us three expressions for boundary.  17 Dealing with the first one that you gave us, and I  18 apologize in advance for my pronunciation, but Gidii  19 gwayihl yip, does that have words in it?  Is it an  20 expression made up of a number of words?  21 MR. GRANT:  Are you asking the translator or are you asking the  22 witness?  23 MR. PLANT:  Well, it makes no difference to me.  24 MR. GRANT:  I think —  25 THE INTERPRETER:  Yes, it does.  26 MR. PLANT:  Could I have —  27 THE INTERPRETER:  Gidii gwayihl yip, as far as the territory  2 8 goes.  29 MR. PLANT:  What is the word that you are translating into  30 territory from that expression?  31 THE INTERPRETER:  Yip. '  32 MR.   PLANT:     Thank you.     The  second one,    'Naa   'yis'yeejaa?  33 THE INTERPRETER:  'Naa 'yis'yeejaa.  34 MR.   PLANT:      'Naa   'yis'yeejaa?  35 THE  INTERPRETER:     It's  —   'Naa   'yis'yeejaa means  chopping  out,  36 like when you are  chopping — blazing a   trail,   a  37 marker,   that's what it means.     When you chop a   tree   to  3 8 mark where  the boundary  is,   this  is   'Naa   'yis'yeejaa,  39 the chopping out of a  tree  to identify  the boundary.  40 MR.   PLANT:     Thank you.     And  the  third one?  41 THE   INTERPRETER:      Hli   daaxhl   lax yip?  42 MR.   PLANT:     Yes.  43 THE INTERPRETER:  The edges of the territory.  44 MR. PLANT:  4 5 Q   Thank you very much.  46 Gwis gyen, when Mr. Grant was asking you about the  47 Xsansisnak territory of Haakasxw, he asked you if that 270  S. Williams (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Plant  1 territory included all of the waters flowing into  2 Xsansisnak, and you said Haakasxw only takes half of  3 it.  Who takes the other half?  4 A  Which part are you talking about, this side of the  5 water?  6 Q  Well, I was actually wanting to know which part you  7 were talking about, because you said Haakasxw only  8 takes half of Xsansisnak, and which half?  9 A  Mool'xan is on this side, and going up is — from  10 Mool'xan is the Lax skiik to — and it goes down to  11 the boundary of Luulak.  12 MR. GRANT:  Do you have a transcript reference for that?  13 MR. PLANT:  14 Q  Yes, page 77.  15 When I've been referring to Xsansisnak, I'm  16 referring to a creek or a stream.  Is that — is  17 Xsansisnak a creek or stream?  18 A  Creek.  19 Q  And you told us that — I think you told us that was  20 the creek that you walked down, you travelled down  21 with your father and Abraham Fowler?  22 A  Yes.  23 Q   Now, does Haakasxw own all of the waters of that creek  24 or are they shared between Haakasxw and some other  25 chief?  26 A  I made a mistake saying that.  I mentioned the  27 territory of Lax Skiik, that was a mistake.  This was  2 8 Haalus' territory.  Haalus is the owner of the part of  29 the Xsansisnak water.  3 0   MR. GRANT:  Just for the record, of course, when he — I see the  31 reference you have there.  When he said Haakasxw only  32 takes half of it, this was close to 3:20 in the  33 afternoon of the second day, and the next answer  3 4 was —  35 MR. PLANT:  Well the record will show exactly what the question  36 was and what the answer was, and I think anything  37 beyond that is really a matter of argument rather than  3 8 evidence.  39 MR. GRANT:  Just a moment, please.  Just a moment, please, Mr.  40 Plant.  Then the next answer was "No, it's all right.  41 He'll answer.  I feel like going crazy now," and it  42 was at that point that I adjourned the commission for  43 that day, so it's apparent that Mr. Williams was very,  44 very tired at that time and he indicated —  45 MR. PLANT:  46 Q       That's  exactly why  I'm  trying to see  if we  can get  a  47 clearer statement  today,   and  I  now  have  the  statement 271  S.   Williams   (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr.   Plant  1 that Haalus  is  the owner in part of  Xsansisnak,   and  —  2 Xsansisnak water.  3 Is   it  the upper part  that Haalus  owns when you  say  4 that Haalus  owns part of  it?  5 A       Towards  the  Seven  Sisters which is known as   'Wii  6 sga'nist.  7 Q  Have you ever travelled on the creek which is known  8 as — or a creek known as Xsu wii masxw, and I'll give  9 you — it's one of the names on —  10 MR. GRANT:  Map number?  11 MR. PLANT:  12 Q   Tab U of map four.  13 A  Yes.  Yes.  Yes, my father and Abraham Fowler showed  14 me this creek, it belongs to Mool'xan.  15 MR. PLANT:  It's creek number two on page 35 of the affidavit,  16 Exhibit 2.  17 MR.   GRANT:     Just a moment.     It's  the fourth one down  on  the  18 right-hand column of   the map U?  19 MR.   PLANT:     Left-hand  column.  20 MR.   GRANT:     Left-hand  column.  21 MR.   PLANT:     Yes.  22 MR. GRANT:  I just want to be sure that the translator  23 interpreted it correctly.  24 MR. PLANT:  25 Q  Yes, I showed it to her for the same purpose.  26 Does the place that we've just been referring, to...  27 the creek known as Xsu wii masxw, does that flow into  2 8 the Copper River, Xsi Tsa Muutsax?  29 A  Yes, it does run into that river.  And it's not Xsi  30 Tsa.  31 THE INTERPRETER:  He was commenting on the way you said it.  32 MR. PLANT:  33 Q  Oh.  I'm sorry that my pronunciation is so poor.  34 Thinking again about — well, no, let's move onto  35 something else.  36 You just mentioned Mool'xan.  Did you ever know  37 Mrs. Joe Brown?  3 8 A  Yes, I remember her.  She knows how to smoke those big  39 pipes.  40 Q       Did she  have  the name Mool'xan at  one   time?  41 A       Yes,   that's   the lady   that's  called Mool'xan.  42 Q       Do you  recall  now who held  the name Mool'xan after  her  43 death?  44 A  Nobody today.  Whoever gets the grave soon or the pole  45 will receive — will get Mool'xan's name.  46 Q  Has it been a long time since Mrs. Joe Brown passed  47 away? 272  S. Williams (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Plant  1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  MR.  15  16  MR.  17  18  MR.  19  20  21  MR.  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  MR.  34  THE  35  MR.  36  MR.  37  38  MS.  39  THE  40  41  MR.  42  MR.  43  THE  44  MS.  45  THE  46  47  MR.  A  It's probably about 3 0 years now.  Q  Now, when you became Gwis gyen, who — was it Mool'xan  who sat in the centre of the frog table as your 'nii  dil, way back then?  A  Yes.  He sat in the centre and beside him was  Gwagl'lo.  This is the — he is the head chief in  Gitsequkla for the frog clan.  Gwagl'lo is the  caretaker of his territory until there is a new  Mool'xan, a successor.  Q  And Gwagl'lo now sits in the centre of the frog table?  A  Yes, it's him.  Q  In the olden days were Mool'xan and Gwagl'lo in the  same house?  GRANT:  Are you referring to when — are you referring to  when he took the name Gwis gyen or earlier?  PLANT:  The phrase that I've been using for the past couple  of days is "the olden times".  GRANT:  Well, you were just — you have a time frame in the  previous questions, I just think if there is a  difference you should distinguish it for him.  PLANT:  Q  Oh.  Was there a time when Mool'xan and Gwagl'lo had  the same house?  A  No.  No, they — Mool'xan has his own house, Gwagl'lo  has his own house, and they were quite close, just  like Gwis gyen, Hax bagwootxw with Gwaans.  Q  Now, I would like to change the subject and ask you  about a place which the white man call Sand Lake, and  I think the Gitksan name for it is Dam Git axsol.  I'm  going to show you the spelling that I have for it,  just to be sure that there won't be any confusion.  Sorry, I had the number for you this morning.  STERRIT:  Number 853.  TRANSLATOR:  It's misspelt on there.  STERRIT:  I know.  PLANT:  Yes, I thought so too when I saw that this morning,  but that's the number I took.  KOENIGSBERG:  Which number?  TRANSLATOR:  Git axsol, you've got it on the map.  It's  spelt wrong on there.  GRANT:  D-A-M, G-I-T, A-X-S-O-L.  PLANT:  Dam Git axsol?  TRANSLATOR:  There it is, 411.  KOENIGSBERG:  411, it's spelt right?  TRANSLATOR:  Yes, yes, 411, it's spelt right.  A  Dam Git axsol, I know this territory.  PLANT: 27 3  S. Williams (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Plant  1  Q  2  A  3  Q  4  A  5  6  7  Q  8  A  9  Q  10  11  A  12  13  14  15  Q  16  MR.  GRANT  17  MR.  PLANT  18  Q  19  20  21  22  A  23  24  *  25  Q  26  27  A  28  29  Q  30  31  A  32  MR.  GRANT  33  MR.  PLANT  34  MR.  GRANT  35  MR.  PLANT  36  37  38  39  40  MR.  PLANT  41  Q  42  43  44  45  A  46  Q  47  A  Have you been there yourself?  I went with Charles Smith.  And have you been there recently?  I went with David Smith, the son of Charles, and I  went with Wallace Morgan.  We stayed there for awhile  with Wallace and Frederick Benson.  Is David Smith still alive?  He has been dead for a long time now.  Can you tell me approximately how long it's been since  you were at Sand Lake, Dam Git axsol?  I don't know how many years ago the last time I was  there, it's a long time, but I know that territory.  If I would — if I had known this was going to happen,  I would have kept track of everything.  Now I want to ask you some questions about Yal.  :  Sorry?  I  i  Your genealogy which is Exhibit 6, shows that Philip  Turner and George Turner were adopted out of your  house, and I think you told us that they were adopted  into Yal.  Do you recall that?  That's true, but you are asking me about the Sand Lake  territory, Philip and George Turner don't own that  territory.  That's right.  I think you told us that Sand Lake was  Tenimgyet? !..  The — it belongs to Tenimgyet and Tenimgyet has  nothing to do with Yal.  Now I — I'm not going to ask you anything more about  Sand Lake, I'm changing the subject.  Good.  Just wait a moment, please.  Yes.  Can we go off the record a moment?  Yes.  (PROCEEDINGS  ADJOURNED  AT 11:10   a.m.)  (PROCEEDINGS  RECONVENED  AT 12:40   p.m.)  Before we  took our lunch break,   Gwis  gyen,   I  had begun  to ask you about Yal,   and  I  had asked you  about   Philip  Turner and George  Turner.     Are  Philip and George  Turner still  alive  today?  Yes,   they are  still  alive  today.  And does  George  Turner  today have  the  name  Yal?  Yes,   it  is  him. 274  S. Williams (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Plant  1 Q  Were Philip and George adopted into Yal's house in  2 your lifetime — well I guess that may be obvious  3 but —  4 A  Yes.  Yes, George is Yal and he adopted Philip and  5 Young George Jackson into his house — Bob Jackson.  6 Bob Jackson Jr..  7 MR. GRANT:  Young Bob Jackson?  8 THE INTERPRETER:  Oh, did I say George?  Oh, okay.  9 A  I just want to correct myself.  I felt bad about this,  10 but I made a mistake about — about the territory we  11 are talking about, Haalus.  And I said Haalus owns the  12 Xsansisnak Creek, this is not true, it belongs to  13 Haakasxw, the whole creek.  I was thinking of Haalus  14 being next to — to that territory and this is why I  15 made that mistake.  16 MR. PLANT:  17 Q  So the house of Haalus has all of the creek known --  18 oh, I'm sorry, the house of Haakasxw has all of the  19 creek known as Xsansisnak?  20 A  Yes, all of it.  21 Q  When you spoke a minute ago about the adoption of  22 young Bob Jackson, is that someone who is Robert  23 Jackson Jr.?  Is he known by that name as well as Bob  24 Jackson?  25 A  Yes, that's him.  26 Q  Now, on the genealogy of your house, which is Exhibit. .  27 6  28 MR.   GRANT:      Exhibit 6.  29 MR.   PLANT:  3 0 Q  It shows that Philip Turner had a brother named Sam  31 Turner who is "now passed on.  Do you remember Sam  32 Turner?  33 A  Yes, I know him.  3 4 Q  On the genealogy, the name Yal appears under Sam  35 Turner's name.  36 A  Yes, he was Yal, and after he died George took the  37 name.  3 8 Q  As I understand it, Yal is fireweed or of the fireweed  39 clan?  40 A      Yes,   they are all  Gisk'aast.  41 Q       Did — well  you  told us   how  Gwis  gyen comes   from —  42 originally  from  the village  of  Gitsequkla,   and  that's  43 so even though you have lived in Gitwingax.     What  44 village  does Yal  come  from?  45 A       I  know where   this  name  comes  from.      It  originated  from  46 Kispiox,   and Arthur Mowatt's  grandfather used  to  have  47 this  name  in Hazel ton.     After  Arthur Mowatt's 27 5  S.   Williams   (for  Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr.   Plant  1 grandfather died who was known as  T'ek'sin,   Donald  2 Mowatt  took  this  name,   in  Gitan'maaxs.     After Donald  3 Mowatt died  then David Mowatt  took  this  name.     After  4 David Mowatt died  then Wilfred Gawa  took  it in  5 Kispiox,   and  then George  Turner's mother,   Irene,   said  6 that  this  name was  theirs  also,   and  they live in  7 Gitsequkla.  8 Q  Is George Turner's mother, Irene, also the mother of  9 Ken Harris who has the name Hax bagwootxw today?  10 A  Yes.  11 Q  Is the name — do you consider the name Yal today to  12 be part of the house of Gwis gyen or is it a separate  13 house?  14 A  Yal has his own house, I have nothing to do with it.  15 I'm referring in Gitsequkla and Kispiox.  Maybe they  16 just like the Swedes, they just live any place.  17 Q  Is the Yal who comes from, or who is in Gitsequkla  18 now, is that separate — a separate house from Gwis  19 gyen?  I'm not asking you about the Kispiox Yal.  20 A  They have their own house.  They are not in my house.  21 MR. GRANT:  Just for the record, you started a question — just  22 when that last answer before with the reference to the  23 Swedes, the witness was obviously making a joke and I  24 don't know if appeared on the record that he was  25 laughing as he said that.  It may appear it wasn't a  26 serious excerpt. .  27 MR. PLANT:  2 8 Q       Does Yal   have a  seat at  the Gisk'aast  feast  table  in  29 Gitsequkla?  30 A  Yes, he is got a place where he sits.  31 Q  Do you have Exhibit 1?  I'm showing you Exhibit 1  32 which is the seating plan of Gwis gyen Gitsequkla, and  33 Yal's name is not on Exhibit 1.  Does Yal have his own  34 or a different table at the feast hall?  35 A  He — he has a seat beside the Kitwancool.  36 Q  Does George Turner -- where does George Turner live  37 today?  3 8 A  He is living in Gitwingax.  39 Q  When you told me that — that Yal has a seat beside  40 the Kitwancool, would that be at a feast hosted by the  41 frog clan in Gitsequkla?  42 THE INTERPRETER:  Could you repeat that question again.  43 MR. PLANT:  44 Q  Would — would Yal — the seat that he told me about,  45 which is to say Gwis gyen, you said that Yal has a  46 seat beside Kitwancool.  Would that be at a feast  47 hosted by the frogs, the frog clan in Gitsequkla? 276  S.  Williams   (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr.   Plant  1 A      Yes,   this  is where —   this  is where  he —   this  is  his  2 seating place.  3 Q  Does Yal have territory?  4 A  He's got territories at Xsa'an sisoox and Xsu wii luu  5 yexw, Xsa'an t'ahl gaak.  6 MR. STERRIT:  Do you want them?  7 THE TRANSLATOR:  Yeah, I want to know if they are on the map.  8 I've my spelling but they are not on the map.  9 MR. STERRIT:  No.  10 MR. PLANT:  11 Q  Does Yal have territory at Luum an tsim 'Din?  12 A  Yes.  There is a creek there which is known as Tsee  13 Iss, this is Yal's.  14 Q   I'm referring to map M and Luum an tsim 'Din is the  15 second name from the bottom.  16 MR. GRANT:  "N" or "M"?  17 MS. KOENIGSBERG:  "M" as in Margaret.  18 MR. PLANT:  "M".  19 MR. GRANT:  Sorry?  20 MR. PLANT:  I'm sorry, second name from the bottom of the right-  21 hand side.  22 MR. GRANT:  Thank you.  23 MR. PLANT:  And I'll show it to the interpreter just to be sure  24 that —  25 MS. KOENIGSBERG:  You gave a name for a creek?  26 A  This is Haakxw's territory.  27 MR. GRANT:  Sorry, your question was whether Yal had a territory  28 at Luum an tsim 'Din?  2 9 MR. PLANT:  30 Q  Yes, yes.  And I think you told us, Gwis gyen, that  31 Yal had a territory on Tsee Iss?  32 A  He owns that, Tsee Iss, and then above it, Win luu  33 Jwihl Daak.  I don't know what the white people call  34 it.  3 5 Q  Does Yal have territory at at or near the river known  36 as Xsi Gyehl 'Din?  37 MR. GRANT:  What's the number?  3 8 MR. PLANT:  39 Q   I can't remember.  40 A  The — I mentioned the names before this, Xsa'an t'ahl  41 gaak, Xsu wii luu yexw, Xsa'an sisoox.  These — now  42 these creeks going to Xsi Gyehl 'Din and that, that  43 is — this is — it comes from Gwin Sdi'moon.  44 MR. GRANT:  You started saying before he completed, "And this  45 is"?  46 THE INTERPRETER:  This is the territory that Yal has, those  47 three I just named. 277  S.   Williams   (for  Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr.   Plant  1 MR.   PLANT:     And you said  that  the  three creeks  flow   into Xsi  2 Gyehl   'Din and  it comes  from —  and  I  didn't have  3 that.  4 THE INTERPRETER:  Gwin Sdi'moon.  5 MR. PLANT:  We are still trying to catch up with the spellings  6 of the words.  Just to make sure I understand part of  7 what you told me, I have to repeat it, Gwis gyen.  8 Are the places that you call Xsa'an sisoox, Xsu  9 wii luu yexw and Xsa'an t'ahl gaak, and I only have a  10 poor note —  11 MR. GRANT:  Maybe Ms. Stevens can give the words to the  12 interpreter so she can pronounce them.  13 MR. PLANT:  14 Q  I want to find out if those three places, place names,  15 refer to three creeks that go into Xsi Gyehl 'Din?  16 A  Gyehl 'Din.  17 Q  Gyehl 'Din.  18 A  Yes, they are — run into Xsi Gyehl 'Din.  19 Q  Who was it that taught you about these territories —  20 or this territory, if it's all one territory?  21 A  I was — I was there a number of times with Sam  22 Turner.  Tooxensxw owns the Gyehl 'Din.  23 Q  Is Tooxensxw a Kitwancool chief?  24 A  Yes, he is the head chief of the frog clan in  25 Kitwancool.  26 Q  And I want to show you another map now, Mr. Williams,'  27 unfortunately it's a big one.  It's a map which has  28 been marked Exhibit 102 at trial, and I really only  2 9 want to show you part of it.  30 MR. GRANT:  Just a second here.  31 MR. PLANT:  To orient you, this is the Skeena, Xsan, flowing  32 along here, and I think the villages of Gitwingax —  33 the village of Gitwingax and the village of  34 Gitsequkla, and Skeena flows downstream, and here  35 where it says 4-D-35 is, according to my  36 understanding, the approximate area of one of Sakxum  37 higookw's territories, the one that you refer to as  3 8 Xsu gwin gaat.  3 9 Now, I wanted to move up north into this area  40 here, and there is a creek or a river marked on here  41 as Gyehl 'Din.  Do you see that?  42 A  I know where Gyehl 'Din is and I know where it flows  43 into the — flows into the Xsi Txemsim.  I was there  44 for quite awhile.  45 Q  And where the Gyehl 'Din flows into the Xsi Txemsim,  46 is that within Kitwancool territory?  47 A  It's Kitwancool territory, it goes further on at Xsi 27 8  S.   Williams   (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr.   Plant  1 Ts'uuts'wit.  2 MR.   PLANT:     We are going  to have  to  stop now  just  for a minute  3 because  the video  tape  is  out,   and we'll  come back  to  4 this  subject in just a minute.  5 (BRIEF ADJOURNMENT TAKEN)  6 MR. PLANT:  Now —  7 MR. GRANT:  Before —  8 MR. PLANT:  Yes?  9 MR. GRANT:  Okay.  Before you ask questions according to this  10 map, I think it should be explained to the witness  11 that this map is — was not tendered by the plaintiffs  12 in trial, and that this map was — it's not produced  13 by the defendants, it's tendered by the defendants at  14 trial, and it's — and the plaintiffs or the — we  15 have said that the boundaries set out on this map may  16 not always be the same as the boundaries set out on  17 the maps tendered by the plaintiffs at trial.  I  18 think — in other words, this — you've put this map  19 to the witness, map which — I don't know if this  20 witness has ever seen it before, but I think he should  21 know what it is before you ask him a question about  22 it.  23 MR. PLANT:  I —  24 MR.   GRANT:     And  I would ask  that —  25 MR.   PLANT:     I  don't  have any  objection  to  that.     I  don't  think  26 it  has absolutely  the  slightest bit of  relevance,  .      ',.  27 because  all   I want  to do  is ask  this witness whether  28 this map,  whatever it is,   correctly shows   the location  29 of   two places,   two creeks.     And  the manufacturer of  30 this map,   the  tenderer of   this map,   the paper on which  31 it's printed," the labels  on  the right  have nothing   to  32 do with  that.  33 MR. GRANT:  Try not to be extreme.  34 MR. PLANT:  I'm trying not to be extreme.  I'm just suggesting  3 5 that for the purpose of my question, the comment  36 you've made doesn't really matter one way or the  37 another.  3 8 MR. GRANT:  Okay.  I just ask my comment be translated to the  39 witness and then you go on.  Could you read that back,  40 please, Madame Reporter, and have the interpreter  41 translate my comment.  42 (REPORTER READ BACK)  43 MR. GRANT:  Maybe rather than translating that, can you explain  44 to the witness this is a map which is tendered at  45 trial by the defendants and it may or may not show the  46 boundaries or the place locations as reflected in  47 other maps prepared on the instructions of this 279  S.   Williams   (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr.   Plant  1 witness.  2 MR. PLANT:  3 Q  But this map was not made by the defendants, this map  4 was made by or on the instructions of the plaintiffs.  5 It's with that comment.  6 A  I really don't need a map.  I don't need this map and  7 I know where the — where the boundaries are.  I know  8 where the names are.  These are our Indian names.  My  9 grandfather used to mention all the names and the  10 boundaries to me when I was laying beside him at  11 bedtime.  And when somebody — somebody would take me  12 to that certain place what he was talking about, then  13 the — what he told me and the place they showed me  14 coincides together, and this is how I know where all  15 these boundaries are.  16 Q  Well, let me see if I can accomplish the same thing by  17 a different route.  Chief Gwis gyen, you told us in  18 your evidence about a stream or creek called Xsi anx  19 Timiiyit.  20 MR. GRANT:  Which map?  21 MR. PLANT:  22 Q  And this is on map L.  And that ter — and that creek,  23 as I understand it, or part of it is the territory of  24 Wii Hlengwax?  25 A  The — the Gyehl 'Din runs and then there is the water  26 coming from the mountains which is known as Xsi anx  ...  27 Timiiyit, and it runs into Xsi Gyehl 'Din.  2 8 Q   And after Xsi Gyehl 'Din — sorry about the  29 pronunciation — carries on down towards the Xsi  30 Txemsim, the Nass, is that where the three creeks,  31 Xsa'an sisoox," Xsu wii luu yexw and Xsa'an T'ahl gaak  32 come into Gyehl 'Din?  In other words, I'm trying to  33 find out where those three creeks come into the Kiteen  34 River which is called Gyehl 'Din?  35 A  Easiest way, I can take you around there and I'll show  36 you all the creeks and all the mountains.  Would you  37 do it? Would you come with me?  3 8 Q  If the time was right I would.  3 9 A  Yeah, it's the best time.  40 Q  Could we -- do it in your head, though.  41 A  I got mine in my head.  42 Q  Okay.  Now, if you are — if you're up on the river,  43 if you are up on Gyehl 'Din, the Kiteen, where the  44 stream Xsi anx Timiiyit comes in, and Mr. Grant is  45 showing you what on --  46 MR. GRANT:  Showing —  47 MR. PLANT:  — or showing the translator. 280  S. Williams (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Plant  1 MR. GRANT:  — the translator Xsi Gyehl 'Din just so that —  2 MR. PLANT:  And I'll actually — just if I may borrow —  3 MR. GRANT:  All right, just look at that.  4 MR. PLANT:  I want you to — I want you to put your mind into  5 this place where this stream, this creek —  6 MR. GRANT:  Xsi anx Timiiyit.  7 MR. PLANT:  8 Q  — in Wii Hlengwax's territory comes into Xsi Gyehl  9 'Din.  Are you there in your mind?  10 A  Yeah, I know it.  11 Q  Okay.  Now after the river carries on downstream  12 towards — well it goes north.  13 MR. GRANT:  Xsi Gyehl 'Din.  14 MR. PLANT:  Are you with me?  And let's translate that.  15 THE INTERPRETER:  Then what?  16 MR. PLANT:  17 Q  And is — well, what I want to find out is where in  18 relation to this place, are the three creeks that you  19 mentioned, Xsa'an sisoox, Xsu wii luu yexw and Xsa'an  20 T'ahl gaak?  21 A  This is Xsi Gyehl 'Din and this is Xsi anx Timiiyit,  22 and it goes here and this is where the — the creeks  23 come — it's close to Xsi anx Timiiyit, Xsa'an T'ahl  24 gaak, Xsa'an sisoox and Xsu wii luu yexw.  It comes  25 from — the head waters are from the mountains.  26 Q   And do those —  27 MR. GRANT:  Just a second.  Just while the witness was pointing  28 he indicated on the — he was looking at Exhibit 4-L  2 9 and he was pointing to the area where the label Xsi  30 Gyehl 'Din is.  In other words, he was pointing on the  31 opposite side of Xsi Gyehl 'Din from Xsi anx Timiiyit,  32 and he also was pointing down towards the north, that  33 would be the top end of Exhibit 4-L, and I -- I think  34 he was —  3 5 MR. PLANT:  He was referring to downstream.  36 MR. GRANT:  I think he was referring to it as downstream and I  37 wanted to clarify the answer.  3 8 MR. PLANT:  And let me just be sure I — my sense of what he was  3 9 saying as he demonstrated it was that the three creeks  40 came from the —  41 THE INTERPRETER:  The mountains.  42 MR. PLANT:  — the mountains on the left as you are looking at  43 this.  44 MR.   GRANT:     That's   right.  45 MR.   PLANT:     Down  towards   the Xsi   Gyehl   'Din.  46 MR.   GRANT:     And  they were  downstream from  Xsi  anx  Timiiyit,   is  47 that  correct — 2 81  S. Williams (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Plant  1  THE  2  MR.  3  MR.  4  MR.  5  6  MR.  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  MR.  17  18  MR.  19  20  MR.  21  22  MR.  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  MR.  34  35  MR.  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  INTERPRETER:  Yes.  GRANT:  — what he was saying?  PLANT:  He was pointing to it.  GRANT:  Yeah.  But he was pointing downstream rather than  upstream on Xsi Gyehl 'Din.  PLANT:  Q  So the three creeks are downstream from Xsi anx  Timiiyit.  They come in from the mountains on the  other side but they are quite close?  A  The — the creeks, the three creeks come from the  mountain called Gwin Sdi'moon and they flow into the  Xsi Gyehl 'Din.  Q   Thank you.  And are those three creeks Yal's territory  today?  A  It's always Yal's, it'll never changed.  PLANT:    Now, I'm going to change the subject to a  completely different subject that may take some time.  GRANT:  Just a second.  Okay, can we go off the record a  moment then?  PLANT:  Yes.  (OFF  THE  RECORD  DISCUSSION)  PLANT:  Q       Did you know   Steven Morgan,   Gwis  gyen?  A       Yes,   I  know  him.  Q  What was his chief's name, his Gitksan name?  A  He was Wiigyet.  Before, Chief Wiigyet.  Q  Now, do you recall when Steven Morgan died?  A  I remember when he died but I don't have the exact  years.  Q  Do you recall that Steven Morgan had a large  registered trapline in his life?  By large I mean it  covered a lot of area.  GRANT:  You are referring to a trapline as opposed to a  territory?  PLANT:  Q   I said registered trapline.  And I don't mean his  territory as Chief Wiigyet, I mean a registered  trapline?  A  No, I don't have no knowledge of this.  I remember  my — I remember my mother telling me that Wiigyet had  no territories at all.  My uncles James Ryan and  Arthur McDames told me the same thing.  They didn't  want me to make an error or a mistake in public when  there is a feast, and this is why they tell me these  things.  My uncles and my grandfathers are always  telling me never to open my mouth and say — and say  anything that I don't know about in the feast — feast 2 82  S. Williams (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Plant  1 hall.  2 Q  I want to direct your attention now to a time  3 following Steven Morgan's death when, as I understand  4 it, Philip Turner became the head man on a registered  5 trapline that used to be registered to Steven Morgan.  6 Do you have any knowledge of that?  7 THE INTERPRETER:  Did you say Philip Turner?  8 MR. PLANT  9 Q  Philip Turner, yes.  10 A  No, I don't know.  I don't know where Steven Morgan  11 had a territory.  12 MR. GRANT:  Just — I just want to be sure, did he say territory  13 or trapline in that answer?  14 THE INTERPRETER:  Yip, territory.  15 THE WITNESS:  Could you tell me where that is supposed to be?  16 MR. PLANT:  The Steven Morgan trapline is a big trapline, and by  17 the Steven Morgan trapline again I mean a registered  18 trapline, and I'm afraid I don't at this — I can't  19 tell you today where it was.  I can tell you when we  20 meet again.  But I know that one part of it --  21 MR. GRANT:  Do you have this on that combination type map that  22 you used with —  23 MR.   PLANT:     No,   I  don't  have  it,   I'm afraid.  24 MR.   GRANT:     I   think you combined Exhibit 24   for  ID.   and Exhibit  25 5   for ID.  26 MR.   PLANT:     Yes,   that's   right. ;  27 MR.   GRANT:     Maybe we  can go off   the  record for a moment.  28 MR.   PLANT;     Let's  go  off   the  record while  I  see   if   I   can  find my  29 combination map.  30 (OFF  THE   RECORD  DISCUSSION)  31 THE WITNESS:      I want   to-tell  you  about   the —   how Wiigyet  32 originated.  33 MR. PLANT:  34 Q  You have told us that before, but if -- this is the  35 story of Wiigyet and his sister?  36 A  Were you talking about the Wiigyet that came from  37 Gitsilis that travelled with his sister from —  3 8 Q  Well, you said you wanted to tell me about where  39 Wiigyet came from, and you've — and you've already  40 told us one story about Wiigyet, and that was the  41 story about the Wiigyet that travelled from Gitsilis  42 with his sister.  Now, I don't need to hear another  43 story about Wiigyet right now, but if you would like  44 to tell it then I certainly don't want to stop you.  45 A  When Wiigyet came — and the reason why I wanted to  46 express this or stress it to you, that when Wiigyet  47 came, my grandfathers didn't give him any land or any 2 83  S. Williams (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Plant  1 fishing sites, they just gave him the name.  2 Q  And they gave him a seat at the feast table?  3 A  Yes.  That's the only thing that they gave him.  I  4 don't know where the register came from, but there was  5 no — Wiigyet never had any land at all.  Our  6 territories are close together, they attach each  7 other's boundaries, they are boundaries that are —  8 there is no gap in our boundaries.  How is Wiigyet  9 going to claim a territory? If he does this then he  10 is claiming somebody else's territory.  11 Q  If — well let me see — you asked me where the  12 registered trapline was, and I — part of the  13 registered trapline was the creek or the river that  14 you know as Xsugwin biiyoosxwit or Insect Creek.  And  15 it also went up north and it went west of that, and I  16 think it went as far west as Tsihl Gwellii?  17 A  Xsugwin biiyoosxwit belongs to Wii Hlengwax and then  18 it goes to — it goes to Gan tseltxwit and this —  19 this territory belongs to Tenimgyet.  It goes over to  20 Tsihl Gwellii and this is Tenimgyet's and the  21 Gisk'aast have no business taking this territory.  22 Q   Did you ever speak with Philip Turner about a  23 registered trapline — a trapline of which he was  24 registered as the head man?  25 A   No.  26 Q  All right.  I want to read you a letter. ...  27 MR. GRANT:  Just before you do that, can I just — just for the  2 8 record.  29 MR. PLANT:  Yes.  30 MR. GRANT:  I just want to be clear for the record when we went  31 off, that in your explanation that, this "Steven Morgan  32 registered trapline" is actually one that is now a  33 composite of many, and it's rather — when I say a  34 composite of many, that apparently it was divided up  35 subsequently.  And within the provincial document  36 system, it appears to — you referred to through a  37 series of files, and there is no one number as we are  3 8 used to in this litigation, the province has numbers  39 of traplines, there is no one number to which you can  40 refer on this trapline, and I think on your overlay of  41 Exhibit 24 and Exhibit 5, you indicated at least —  42 MR. PLANT:  The only one that I'm very confident about is  43 0615T016 and I think some of the traplines to the east  44 and to the north are also part of the original Steven  45 Morgan registered trapline.  46 MR. GRANT:  And you referred, for example, to T019, T021, T022,  47 and so that this trapline — just so that the record 2 84  S.   Williams   (for  Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr.   Plant  1 is  clear,   that when you are  talking about   the  Steven  2 Morgan  trapline we are not  talking about one  that  sort  3 of   is  clear as  some of   the others  that you've dealt  4 with where  there  is an indication of a  trapline,   but  5 it's  something  that —   it  isn't —  it wasn't  that  6 clear  to me,   and — but it certainly appears —   this  7 name  appears  throughout  the files.     I just want  to  set  8 that  on  the  record and   I'm not —  and you  can  proceed.  9 It would  seem  that you  are  leaving  the  area,   though.  10 MR.   PLANT:     Well,   I'm  still   sort  of   in  the  area.  11 THE WITNESS:     When —   I will   tell   the  simgigyet about   this  12 registration of   Steven Morgan,   and  there will  be  a  13 meeting and  I will   find out why  this was  done.  14 MR.   PLANT:     Now,   I would like  to refer you  to a letter which  15 comes  from the Attorney-General  of  Canada's  document  16 4546.  17 MR. GRANT:  Is that the estate file of Steven Morgan, I believe?  18 MR. PLANT:  This is the file of Philip Turner and Company,  19 that's the name.  20 MR. GRANT:  Oh, a trapline file of the Federal Crown.  21 MR. PLANT:  I don't know if it's a trapline file — yes, it says  22 traplines on the front page of the file.  23 The letter purports to be signed by Philip Turner  24 dated July 23, 1949, addressed to the Indian Agency in  25 Hazel ton, B.C..  I'll just come around here and I'm  26 going to read it and then ask the interpreter to ,  27 translate it and then I'll have some questions about  28 the letter.  The letter reads, "Dear sir," and it's  29 addressed to the Indian Agency, as I said.  30  31 "I have signed all copies as required.  In  32 addition to the list of names already attached to  33 the paper, it is my wish on behalf of my clansmen  34 that the following people are included:  (This is  35 Stanley Williams -- sorry.)  36 Mr. Stanley Williams, Gitwingax B.C,  37 Mrs. Irene Harris,  3 8 Mrs. Mary Williams,  3 9 Mrs. Nora Johnson,  40 Mr. Richard Fowler,  41 Mr. Solomon Bryand."  42  43 And it's spelled B-R-Y-A-N-D.  44  45 "Mr. George Williams, and.  46 Mr. Edgar Turner."  47 2 85  S. Williams (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Plant  1 And all but Mr. Edgar Turner are said to be of  2 Gitwingax.  Mr. Turner is said to be of Hazelton.  And  3 the letter concludes, "Thank you.  Yours truly, Philip  4 Turner."  And if you read the other documents in this  5 file, the — what he is talking about is people he  6 wishes to have included on his registered trapline.  7 MR. GRANT:  Just a moment.  Do you know what the copy is he is  8 referring to on this file?  9 MR. PLANT:  Is that —  10 MR. GRANT:  He says I've signed — in other words, you've made  11 an advance supposition and I just want the basis of  12 that.  13 MR. PLANT:  I can't identify which particular copy from this  14 file is being referred to.  15 MR. GRANT:  Okay.  Because I presume you are going to ask  16 questions about the trapline and that's what I'm  17 just — before you translate, just one moment.  I  18 guess I should just formulate my comment in the form  19 of an objection.  I don't object, of course, to the  20 letter being read and you ask questions of it, but the  21 reason I paused or interrupted at the end was that you  22 said "from other documents in this file," and it  23 appears that this is the addition of people to a  24 trapline registration, and it's not apparent from this  25 file nor does it seem apparent from — it's not  26 apparent from this letter that you've read nor does it-  27 seem apparent from the other documents that are  28 stapled to what I presume is the provincial  29 defendant's copy of the federal document in the file,  30 so it doesn't seem to be apparent from the file that  31 that's what he's talking about.  32 MR. PLANT:  All right.  There is in another file, a copy of what  33 may be the application form that he is referring to.  34 I don't have the original of the Philip Turner  35 trapline application form, so I can't say what's on  36 the reverse.  But the document I've shown to you  37 suggests to me that there are two groups of people,  3 8 and what Mr. Turner is trying to do is to make sure  3 9 that in this letter, that the people who are named in  40 the letter have been added to or are going to be added  41 to his registered trapline.  42 MR. GRANT:  Well, as I say, it may well be that you can  43 establish that in some other way, but thus far even  44 with this document which is your page 84 — 470, it  45 doesn't — the assumption that you are making doesn't  46 appear to me to be apparent that that's what is being  47 talked about.  There is names listed, but whether that 2 86  S.  Williams   (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr.   Plant  1 letter  is  to do with a  trapline or an estate or what  2 it's  to do with  I —   that's what —   on  that basis  I  3 object,   if   that's  the question you are going  to ask  4 him.     But as   I  said,   I don't object  to you asking him  5 about  that letter,   but  I  don't  think you  should build  6 in an assumption unless  there  is  some basis  for  it and  7 I  can't  see  it.  8 MR. PLANT:  But it seems to me to be actually manifest from the  9 document immediately following, but I'll just ask my  10 question anyway.  11 MR. GRANT:  Well maybe then you can have the letter read to him.  12 It has never been translated to him.  13 MR. PLANT:  I know.  14 THE INTERPRETER:  Okay, what he wants to know is he hears all  15 these names being mentioned, he — he says, "We've  16 never signed anything with Philip Turner and if —  17 would Philip Turner get in trouble by involving us in  18 this?  Because we never signed anything."  19 MR. GRANT:  And —  20 THE INTERPRETER:  That's what he wants to know.  21 MR. PLANT:  And by signing —  22 MR. GRANT:  He is referring to the names that you've named on  23 the letter.  24 THE WITNESS:  I never signed this paper, my mother never signed  25 this paper, and anytime that my mother does anything  26 that — that is serious, then she lets me know about  27 it and she didn't tell me about this is.  2 8 MR. PLANT:  29 Q  Did you have any knowledge of whether or not Philip  30 Ryan wanted to add you —  31 MS. KOENIGSBERG:  Turner.  32 MR. PLANT:  33 Q  — to a registered trapline in his name?  I'm sorry, I  34 said Philip Ryan, I think, I meant Philip Turner?  3 5 A  No, he never mentioned anything like this to me.  36 Q   Do you know if Philip Turner has a registered  37 trapline?  3 8 A  No.  Philip has been gone for so many years, he was  39 living in Vancouver, and he just recently came back  40 about three years ago and I never talk to him.  41 Q  The trapline that we are talking about is — insofar  42 as I can make out from the various maps, in Kitwancool  43 territory.  Does George Turner have a registered  44 trapline today, to your knowledge?  45 A  His territory is in Kitwancool.  I don't know if he  46 registered it or not.  47 Q  Does George Turner have rights to trap on Cranberry 2 87  S.   Williams   (for  Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr.   Plant  1 River?  2 A  Yes, that's his own territory.  I won't forget about  3 this registration.  I was wondering if I could — if  4 you could have a copy that — that you could give me  5 because I would like to show it to the other  6 simgigyet.  7 Q  Your lawyer, Mr. Grant, has copies of all of these  8 documents?  9 A  Yeah, okay.  10 MR. GRANT:  I can produce a copy for you.  11 Just there is — just I want to be clear because I  12 think he is operating — you read the letter to him  13 which was not translated, and I -- and then I talked  14 to you about the assumption.  I think it — I would  15 like the interpreter to explain that the letter that  16 you read — maybe this letter should be translated  17 because I don't know if he — he may be thinking from  18 our discussion what it is and it may be something  19 different.  20 MR. PLANT:  21 Q  Okay.  Before it's done, though, I would like one  22 other question asked.  23 When you — I asked you if George had rights to  24 Cranberry River and you said, "Yes, that's his own  25 territory."  Do you mean that that's — belongs to  26 Yal? ,\  ;.  27 A  No.  He does not — that's not Yal's territory.  28 Q  Okay.  When I asked you if George had rights to  29 Cranberry River — let me ask you again.  Does George  30 Turner have any rights to the place known as Xsi  31 'yagaa skit, which I understand is Cranberry River?  32 A  No.  He could go onto Gaxsbgabaxs' territory but not  33 on Xsi 'yagaa skit.  That's Gaxsbgabaxs' father.  34 Q  George Turner is the father of Simon Turner?  3 5 A  Gaxsbgabaxs.  36 MR. GRANT:  I think there was — the interpreter — could you  37 just clarify the answer because I think he referred to  3 8 Simon Turner.  Maybe you can just translate.  39 A  Yes, that's George's father.  40 MR. PLANT:  41 Q  All right.  Now, Mr. Grant and I had a discussion  42 awhile ago after I read you a letter, and I'm going to  43 ask the interpreter to read the letter, the 1949  44 letter which has Philip Turner's name in handwriting  4 5 at the bottom, and then I want to make sure that you  46 have that in your mind when I ask you the question  47 about it. 288  S. Williams (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Plant  1 A  This was — was probably the mistake of Steven Morgan,  2 because he made out a registration of the territory  3 that belongs to Wii Hlengwax and to Tenimgyet.  They  4 have nothing to do — to do with this territory, and  5 I — I feel bad that I don't — my name been on here.  6 This is what the white people call forgery.  7 Q  Now, I want — I don't want you to be under any  8 misunderstanding here, because my understanding is  9 that the territory that is talked about, that is to  10 say that Philip Turner registered, is not Wii  11 Hlengwax's or Tenimgyet's territory, but is part of  12 the territory of Kitwancool in the upper part of  13 Cranberry River, Xsi 'yagaa skit.  So it's a different  14 place.  Do you understand that — I'm not referring —  15 this letter does not —  16 A  You going saying Xsugwin biiyoosxwit.  17 Q  Yes.  The trapline that Steven Morgan registered  18 included Xsugwin biiyoosxwit and it went far west,  19 almost as far as Tsihl Gwellii and it went north too,  20 and it went as far north as I can read it, as —  21 A  Steven Morgan got nothing do with that land.  Even  22 Tsihl Gwellii he has got nothing do with it.  That's  23 Tenimgyet's land and — and Wii Hlengwax, Xsugwin  24 biiyoosxwit.  25 Q       And  Xsi   'yagaa   skit — .    ■   t  26 A       That's   too far way,   that's  down Kitwancool.  27 Q       Right,   okay.  2 8 A  And Xsi 'yagaa skit, these people got nothing to do  29 with it.  That — that Kitwancool people got all their  30 lands there.  They name it and —  31 Q  It's theirs? "  32 A  Yeah.  33 MR. PLANT:  Okay.  Let's adjourn now.  34 THE WITNESS:  That's all a mistake, that one.  3 5 MR. PLANT:  Before we adjourn, Mr. Grant has asked —  36 MR. GRANT:  Yes.  I just want to see something, I would like to  37 see that document, please?  3 8 THE WITNESS:  I'm going to see the Kitwancool people about this  3 9 and —  40 MR. GRANT:  Now I think there should also be explained that the  41 name Philip Turner is on the bottom, whether that's  42 his signature or not —  43 MR. PLANT:  I've never suggested it was.  44 MR. GRANT;  That's right.  It may well not be but -- I know you  45 haven't, and I just want the witness to be sure of  46 that.  Can you translate that to the witness.  47 The other point is that I am unable from this 289  S. Williams (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Plant  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  MR  10  11  12  MR  13  MR  14  MR  15  16  17  18  19  MR  20  21  MR  22  MR  23  MR  24  25  26  27  28  MR  29  30  MR  31  MR  32  33  34  MR  35  36  37  38  MS  39  40  MR  41  MR  42  43  44  45  46  47  document — and when I say this document I mean A-G  Canada 4546, which is a file out of which this letter  refers — I am unable to determine from all --  anything in the documents to connect that to what you  have suggested, and I'm only saying that because I  can't tell from this entire file whether or not the  area referred to in this letter is around Cranberry  River as you suggested, or any other place.  PLANT:  Well, that's something that you can do over the  weekend by reading the application leaps and bounds,  all right.  GRANT:  No.  Mr. Plant, just pause a second, okay.  PLANT:  Yeah.  GRANT:     All   I'm saying  is,   is  that I  don't want  the witness  to be left with the impression over  the weekend  that  this  is  the Cranberry River area.     I  don't know   that  and  I don't know  how you can establish that —   if you  have established  that.  PLANT:     The  trapline is 615T028.     You have our map of  registered traplines,   you go find that and —  GRANT:     You don't have  to  tell me what  I  have  to do.  PLANT:     Well  —  GRANT:  But the question is whether or not this application  registration of a trapline refers to exactly the same  boundary as is in the maps of the province, which were  prepared in the last course of the last three or fpur' .  years.  PLANT:  With great respect, Mr. Grant, I fully agree that  that is a question —  GRANT:  Yes, okay.  PLANT:  — but it is not a question for a re-examination of  this witness.  It seems to me to be a matter of  argument.  GRANT:  It is a question but I don't want the witness to go  away with an impression that may not be correct,  that's all I'm saying, because he has expressed some  concern about it.  KOENIGSBERG:  Off the record now? Do you want to take this  off the record?  GRANT:  We can go off the record now.  PLANT:  Okay.  (PROCEEDINGS ADJOURNED AT 2:00 p.m.) 290  S. Williams (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Plant  1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  I hereby certify the foregoing to be  a true and accurate transcript of the  proceedings herein transcribed to the  best of my skill and ability.  Toni Kerekes,  O.R., R.P.R.  United Reporting Service Ltd, 

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