Delgamuukw Trial Transcripts

Commision Evidence of Jefferay Vincent Boys Vol. 3 British Columbia. Supreme Court Nov 3, 1988

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 $n  tip JSuprsnts  Court of  JSritxsIj Columbia  Na 0843  Smithers  Regi stry  VICTORIA, B.C.  NOVEMBER 3, 1988  BETWEEN:  DELGAMUUKW,  suing on his  of all other  DELGAMUUKW,  also know as  own behalf  ■ members of  and others,  KEN MULDOE,  and on behalf  the HOUSE OF  Plaintiffs;  AND  •  HER MAJESTY  PROVINCE OF  THE ATTORNEY  THE QUEEN IN RIGHT OF THE  BRITISH COLUMBIA and  -GENERAL FOR CANADA,  Defendants.  COMMISSION EVIDENCE OF JEFFERAY VINCENT BOYS  UNITED REPORTING SERVICE LTD.. 610 - 1030 WEST GEORGIA STREET, VANCOUVER. EC V6E 4H4 (604) 689-1088 2&x\ tlj* ^npvtmt Court of J8rittsl| Columbia  Na 0843  Smithers Registry  VICTORIA, B.C.  NOVEMBER 3, 1988  BETWEEN  DELGAMUUKW, also know as KEN MULDOE,  suing on his own behalf and on behalf  of all other members of the HOUSE OF  DELGAMUUKW, and others,  AND:  HER MAJESTY THE QUEEN IN RIGHT OF  PROVINCE OF BRITISH COLUMBIA and  THE ATTORNEY-GENERAL FOR CANADA,  Plaintiffs;  THE  Defendants  COMMISSION EVIDENCE OF JEFFERAY VINCENT BOYS  UNITED REPORTING SERVICE LTD., 610 -1030 WEST GEORGIA STREET, VANCOUVER, at V6E 4H4 (604) 669-1088 APPEARANCES  S. RUSH, ESQ  appearing for the Plaintiffs  J.M. MACKENZIE, ESQ.  appearing for Her Majesty the  Queen in Right of the Province  of British Columbia  MS. M. KOENIGSBERG  and M.T. WOLF, ESQ  appearing for the Attorney  General of Canada INDEX  OF  WITNESSES  WITNESSES   FOR   THE  ATTORNEY-GENERAL  OF  CANADA PAGE  BOYS,   JEFFERAY   VINCENT  Cross-exam continued by Mr.  Mackenzie 112  Cross-exam by Mr.   Rush 128 INDEX TO EXHIBITS  Number  Description  Page Number  43  44A  448  45  46  47  48  49  50  Letter dated November 20, 1947, from Mr. Boys  to Mr. Gill 113  Letter dated July 19, 1948, from Mr.Seymour to  the Indian Agent in Hazelton 113  Letter dated July 27, 1948, from Mr. Boys to  Mr. Seymour 11 3  Letter dated May 13, 1963, to Mr. R.B. Jacobson  from Mr, Boys, three pages 114  Excerpts from A.G. B.C. 3487 relating to the  B.C. Special Vote 125  Letter dated December 19, 1946, to Inspector  Van Dyk from J. Coleman 136  Letter dated August 14, 1941, from Mr. MacKay  to Mr. Mallinson, two pages 147  Letter dated August 8, 1941, from Mr. Mallinson  to Mr. MacKay, one page 147  Letter dated January 1, 1947, to Mr. Vinson from  Mr. Coleman 147 112  J.V.   Boys   (for  Defendant)  Cross-exam by  Mr.   Mackenzie  1 Victoria, B.C.  2 November 3, 1988.  3  4 CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR. MACKENZIE CONTINUED:  5 C]  Yesterday we discussed the trapline application  6 process, and you identified several trapline  7 application forms.  Do you recall that?  8 A  Yes.  9 Q  I would like to just confirm some points with respect  10 to the trapline application process, and those are the  11 following.  The first point is that when you and your  12 staff completed those applications, that was one of  13 the duties of your position as Indian Superintendent  14 at the Babine Indian Agency?  15 A  Yes.  16 Q  And you had — you and Mr. Appleby, and I take it  17 other Indian Superintendants, had a duty to your  18 superiors, and if you did not fulfil that duty to  19 carry out that trapline application process, there was  20 a risk of censure?  21 A  A risk of censure?  22 Q  Yes,  23 A  Well, I suppose, probably.  24 Q  That would be in the failure to do — in the event of  25 failure to do that duty?  26 A   Yes.  27 Q  And, of course, neither you nor Mr. Appleby had any  28 personal interests in the completion of those forms  29 other than the discharge of the duties of your  30 position as Indian Agents?  31 A  None whatsoever.  3 2 Q  And those comments that we've just summarized applied  33 to the documents filed in the trapline files in your  3 4 office such as those you reviewed in James  3 5 Blackwater — correction — Walter Blackwater's file?  36 A  Yes.  37 Q  And they would apply to the trapline application files  3 8 of other Indians in your agency whom you represented?  3 9 A  Yes.  40 MR.   MACKENZIE:     Just  to  complete  the  trapline area by  41 identifying  some of  Canada's  documents which have  not  42 yet been marked,   a  letter  of  November  20,   1947.  43 MS.  KOENIGSBERG:     Is  there a  tab?  44 MR.   MACKENZIE:     Your  documents,   Canada's  documents.  45 MR.   RUSH:     He's  going  to  identify your documents  for you.  46 MS.  KOENIGSBERG:     I  don't have  them in a white binder you  see.  47 MR.   RUSH:     November?     Can you just  tell  me — 113  J.V.   Boys   (for  Defendant)  Cross-exam by  Mr.   Mackenzie  1 MS.   KOENIGSBERG:     It's  November  20th,   1947.  2 MR.   RUSH:     From?  3 MS.  KOENIGSBERG:     Boys  to Gill.     Okay.     We have  it.  4 MR.   MACKENZIE:  5 Q      Could you identify your  signature on that document?  6 A       Yes,   that's my  signature.  7 MR.   MACKENZIE:     Mark   that  as  the  next  exhibit,   please.  8  9 (EXHIBIT  43   -  Letter  dated November  20,   1947,   from Mr.   Boys  to  10 Mr.   Gill)  11  12 MR.   MACKENZIE:  13 Q      I put before you a document which  appears to be a  copy  14 of  a letter  from you  to Mr.   Seymour dated July 27,  15 1948?  16 A       Yes.  17 Q      And  attached to  it  is a letter  apparently  from Mr.  18 Seymour  to  the Indian Agent at  Hazelton dated July 19,  19 1948?  20 A       Yes.  21 Q  And attached also is a trapline application of Arthur  22 Seymour, and the date is not apparent, but it looks as  23 if it were signed by Arthur Seymour and Mr. Mortimer.  24 Mr. Mortimer was an Indian Agent prior to your term?  25 A  Yes.  26 Q  Now, referring to these documents, the July 19 letter,  27 can you confirm that was received by the Babine  28 Agency, your office? There is a stamp.  29 A  Yeah, it's pretty vague.  I can make out the —  30 Q  Yes.  31 A  — make out the — possibly the word "Agency," but it  32 appears to be — it's the type of stamp that was used  33 at the agency.  It appears to be the agency's stamp.  3 4        Q  And the July 27 letter, can you confirm that that was  3 5 sent from your office to Mr. Seymour?  36 A  Yeah, it has my name on it, and it has my initials as  37 having dictated it.  In all probability it went out  38 from our office.  I can't positively identify it.  3 9 MR. MACKENZIE:  And I'd ask that the letter of July 19 be marked  40 as Exhibit 44A and the letter of July 27 be marked as  41 Exhibit 44B.  42  43 (EXHIBIT 44A - Letter dated July 19, 1948, from Mr. Seymour to  44 the Indian Agent in Hazelton)  45  46 (EXHIBIT 44B - Letter dated July 27, 1948, from Mr. Boys to Mr.  47 Seymour) 114  J.V. Boys (for Defendant)  Cross-exam by Mr. Mackenzie  1 MR. MACKENZIE:  2 Q      So this letter,   Exhibit  44B,   is an example of  you  3 implementing  the policy  of  preventing  transfer  of  4 Indian  traplines  to non-Indians?  5 A       Yes.  6 MR. MACKENZIE:  Off the record, please.  7  8 (OFF THE RECORD DISCUSSION)  9  10 MR. MACKENZIE:  11 Q  I'm not going to ask you to identify this document,  12 but you — you knew Mr. Martin to be the game warden  13 of the Prince Rupert District?  14 A  Yes.  15 Q  And you had dealings with him from time to time?  16 A  Yes.  17 Q  Now, as a result of his dealings with you, can you  18 identify his signature on that document?  19 A  Yes.  20 Q  Well, I'll withdraw my comment about not marking it  21 then.  This is a discussion of application to register  22 trapline in favour of Arthur Horice and James Angus.  23 Are you able to say that this memorandum related to  24 Indians in the Babine Agency?  25 A  Well, just give me a few moments and I'll read it.  26 Q  Yes.  27 A  No, I can't tell you positively what it refers to at  28 this time.  29 MR. MACKENZIE:  I'm not going to mark that document.  The next  30 document is a letter from you to Mr. Jacobson dated  31 May 13, 1963.  Off the record, please.  32  33 (OFF THE RECORD DISCUSSION)  34  3 5 MR. MACKENZIE:  36 Q  Can you identify your signature on page 2 of that  37 document?  3 8         A  Yes.  3 9 MR. MACKENZIE:  Mark that as the next be exhibit, please.  40  41 (EXHIBIT 45 - Letter dated May 13, 1963, to Mr. R.B Jacobson  42 from Mr. Boys, three pages)  43  44 MR. MACKENZIE:  There are three pages apparently in that  45 document, the first page and second page and then, as  46 I understand it, a copy of the reverse of the second  47 page.  Perhaps I could ask Ms. Koenigsberg whether 115  J.V. Boys (for Defendant)  Cross-exam by Mr. Mackenzie  1 that's  the  explanation.  2 MS.  KOENIGSBERG:     Yes,   I   understand  that  the blank  page with  a  3 stamp on  it  is  the back  of  the  second page.  4 MR. MACKENZIE:  5 Q  All three pages then should be included in that  6 Exhibit 45.  7 Mr. Boys, at this time, in 1963, you were Indian  8 Commissioner of British Columbia, were you not?  9 A  Yes.  10 Q  And this —  11 A  1963, I think, isn't it?  12 Q  Yes.  13 A  Yes, right.  14 Q  This letter relates to Jonathan Brown, who holds a  15 trapline in an Indian block called Joseph Danes &  16 Company? That appears in the second paragraph on the  17 first page of that letter.  18 A  Yes.  19 Q  And you recall that that is a trapline in the Babine  20 Agency?  21 A  Yes.  22 Q  And at the bottom of page 1 you comment:  23  24 "Some years ago when fur prices were good,  25 the policy of holding traplines in this  26 manner and purchasing others for indigent  27 Indians to earn a livelihood was quite  28 reasonable.  Today, however, with low fur  29 prices and with many traplines left  30 untrapped, we no longer follow this policy."  31  32 A  Yes.  33 Q  When you made that comment about many traplines being  3 4 left untrapped, did you take that to refer also to the  3 5 Babine Agency?  36 A  Yes.  37 Q  And your — you relate the fact of low fur prices to  3 8 the fact of traplines being left untrapped, do you  3 9 not?  40 A  Yes.  41 Q  Now, I refer to tab 3 in the red binder.  And I'm not  42 going to deal with these documents.  I think we've  43 covered those sufficiently already.  Now, to finish up  4 4 your — the questions on your term in Hazelton, can  45 you summarize the relationship between the white and  46 Indian communities in the Babine Agency during your  47 term of office? Was it an applicable relationship 116  J.V. Boys (for Defendant)  Cross-exam by Mr. Mackenzie  1  2  A  3  4  5  6  7  8  Q  9  A  10  Q  11  12  A  13  Q  14  A  15  Q  16  17  A  18  19  20  Q  21  22  23  A  24  Q  25  26  A  27  Q  28  29  30  31  A  32  33  34  35  Q  36  37  38  39  40  A  41  Q  42  43  44  A  45  Q  46  47  A  generally?  Yes.  I think the general feeling was that all of  these communities were fairly isolated, and we all had  the same sort of conditions, and we shared good  feelings with the Indians.  The Indians came to —  oh — Indians attended dances and so on put on by  non-Indians and vice versa.  Did you have personal knowledge of that fact?  Yes.  By the time you left the Hazelton office you had the  trapline files pretty well organized?  Yes.  You had a system of annual renewals in place?  Yes.  You had made  progress  in completing registrations  for  areas  not registered  at  the  time of your  arrival?  Yes.     We were  still  somewhat  inhibited in that —  by — by  the  fact  that  our maps  didn't  correspond,   and  that wasn't resolved  until  after  I  left.  And is  it  fair  to  say  that  to your knowledge  there was  an acceptance by  the  Indian  trappers of   the  registrations which you had  effected?  Yes.  You did not receive complaints about the description  of the boundaries in the trapline registrations?  No.  And by the time you left in 1951 is it also fair to  say that for the Carrier people in your agency  trapping had declined significantly as a source of  income?  Certainly the income had declined because fur prices  had declined.  I think probably the — there was still  a fair amount of trapping activity among the Carriers  more so than the — among the Gitksan.  Fine.  I'd like to leave that topic now then and move  on to another topic, and that is the B.C. Special  Vote.  During your time as Indian Superintendent in  the Babine Agency you were aware of the B.C. Special  Vote?  Yes.  And during your  time as  Indian  Commissioner  of  British  Columbia you were personally involved in  the  administration  of  that  —  Yes.  —  fund?  And what was that B.C. Special Vote?  Well, it was a vote set up in the 1920's as a form of 117  J.V. Boys (for Defendant)  Cross-exam by Mr. Mackenzie  1 compensation because the majority of Indians in  2 British Columbia were not treaty Indians and,  3 therefore, received no treaty money.  And parliament  4 as a result made a Special Vote of $100,000 to be used  5 for the Indians of — the non-treaty Indians of B.C.  6 for special purposes, and among those purposes were  7 public health, special education, and assistance for  8 farming and agriculture.  9 Q  And the — money was expended each year after the  10 initial vote for the benefit of Indians in British  11 Columbia?  12 A  Yes.  13 Q  Since 1958 an Indian Advisory Committee had reviewed  14 and approved the expenditure?  15 A  Yes, Indian Advisory Committee was in place when I  16 came back to B.C. as Indian Commissioner in 1961.  17 Q  The Indians — and you personally met with the Indian  18 Advisory Committee each year during your term as  19 Indian Commissioner?  20 A  Yes.  21 Q_  The Indians selected represented the coastal, northern  22 and mainland portions of the province?  23 A  That's right.  24 Q  They were three zones represented?  25 A  That's right.  26 Q  Zone 2 was the northern, coastal and inland area?  27 A  That's right, um hum.  28 Q  That included the Babine Agency?  29 A   Right.  3 0 Q  And it was a practice to replace one member of this  31 three-person committee each year?  3 2 A  That's correct, um hum.  33 Q  And that committee was elected by the Indian bands in  3 4 British Columbia?  3 5 A  Right.  36 Q  Including the bands in the Babine Agency?  37 A  Yes.  3 8 Q  The bands in the Babine Agency elected their  39 representative or participated in the election of the  40 representative for Zone 2?  41 A  Yes, they nominated somebody whom they would like to  42 see represent them, and this was done by each band  43 throughout the northern zone, and then a vote was  44 taken from each of these bands and from — from that  45 vote their representative was elected, and he sat on  46 the B.C. Special Committee for a period of three  47 years. 118  J.V. Boys (for Defendant)  Cross-exam by Mr. Mackenzie  1 Q  And by the middle of your term the committee had  2 recommended and it had been agreed that the allotment  3 of the B.C. Special would be on a per capita basis to  4 Indian bands?  5 A  Now, I remember that being proposed.  I don't remember  6 the adoption of it.  7 Q  Fine.  We'll look at the documents.  As you mentioned,  8 the advisory committee approved the expenditures of  9 the B.C. Special?  10 A  Yes.  11 Q  And the deliberations of the committee were  12 communicated to Indian bands in the Babine Agency?  13 A  Yes.  14 Q  And — and consultation was carried on with Indian  15 bands in the Babine Agency related to proposals for  16 expending the B.C. Special Fund?  17 A  Those were the instructions to all the superinten-  18 dants.  Minutes of the meeting of the council was sent  19 to each agency, and the agency was instructed to  20 inform the bands as to the result of the — of the  21 committee deliberations.  22 Q  And you received reports from your agencies, including  23 the Babine Agency, that those minutes had been  24 distributed to the bands?  25 A  I don't recollect if we did but —  26 Q  We'll look at the documents.  Did you wish to add  27 something to that?  28 A  No, except that the purposes of the — the original  29 purpose of the B.C. Special was changed as a result of  30 the recommendations of the special — B.C. Special  31 Committee.  Because funds were voted for — for health  3 2 purposes, there was no need for any — any assignment  33 of funds from the B.C. Special Vote for that purpose,  3 4 and the same applies to education.  All costs of  3 5 education up to higher post-graduate education were  36 covered out of — out of the vote — of the Education  37 Vote, and so the committee, recognizing that the  3 8 coastal Indians had not been treated too fairly, since  39 the other purpose was for agricultural, the coastal  40 Indians submitted a resolution asking that fishing  41 and — and lumbering should be included, and that was  42 adopted and that became — those became additional  43 purposes for which the B.C. Special Vote should be  44 used.  I can't tell you exactly what year that — that  45 resolution was passed, but that was passed.  46 Q  Yes.  I have that in the documents to which I'll refer  47 you.  Do you recall that one of the representatives on 119  J.V. Boys (for Defendant)  Cross-exam by Mr. Mackenzie  1  2  3  A  4  Q  5  6  A  7  Q  8  9  A  10  Q  11  12  13  A  14  15  16  17  Q  18  19  A  20  Q  21  22  23  24  A  25  Q  26  27  A  28  Q  29  30  A  31  32  33  Q  34  35  A  36  Q  37  38  A  39  Q  40  41  A  42  Q  43  44  A  45  Q  46  47  A  the committee during your early years was Mr. Guy  Williams?  Yes.  He was the president of the Native Brotherhood of  British Columbia?  That's right.  And one of your duties as Indian Commissioner was  liaison with Indian groups and organizations?  Yes.  And what were the objectives, to your knowledge, of  that organization, the Indian brother -- correction —  the Native Brotherhood of British Columbia?  That was — the objective was the general advancement  of conditions, economic and social conditions, of the  Indians mainly of the coast, and with particular  reference to the fishing industry.  And it's your knowledge that the Gitksan people were  very active in the fishing industry?  Yes.  You received reports from your superintendants during  the time you were Indian Commissioner confirming that  they had consulted with the Babine Agency bands on the  B.C. Special expenditures?  I received reports from all the agencies.  And those — and in turn you reported to Ottawa on the  expenditure of the B.C. Special?  Yes.  And you reported to Ottawa on the fact that your  agencies had all reported to you on these matters?  Well, I can't specifically tell you exactly what I  reported to Ottawa, but presumably that was the  process.  Yes.  That was the — that was your duty as Indian  Commissioner, to report to Ottawa?  Yes.  And it was your duty to supervise the expenditure of  the B.C. Special?  Right.  And this was also the duty of the Indian Agents, to  carry out your instructions?  Right.  And also to report to you on the discharge of those  instructions?  Right, um hum.  And those Indian Agents, of course, risked censure in  the event of failure to discharge those duties?  Yes. 120  J.V. Boys (for Defendant)  Cross-exam by Mr. Mackenzie  1 Q  And although the possibility, of course, was remote,  2 in your case also there was in your position a risk of  3 censure if there were a failure to carry out the duty?  4 A  Presumably, yes.  5 Q  Now, referring to the documents, tab 9 of the red  6 brief, I'm going to ask you to identify these  7 documents, then I'm going to submit the documents in  8 that tab for marking as an exhibit.  These are  9 documents drawn from A.G. B.C. 3487, apparently taken  10 from the Department of Indian Affairs' central  11 registry file in British Columbia.  The first document  12 has pages 125 to 128 marked in the lower right-hand  13 corner.  14 A  Um hum.  15 Q  It's a document dated February 20, 1962, entitled  16 "Minutes of the fourth meeting of Indian Advisory  17 Committee to the Indian Commissioner for British  18 Columbia."  Can you identify your signature on page  19 128, referring to the page numbers at the lower  20 right-hand corner?  21 A  Yes.  22 Q  So this document is — is an accurate record of the  23 minutes of the fourth meeting of that Indian Advisory  24 Committee?  25 A  Yes, yes.  26 Q  And the committee members include Mr. Frank Calder.  27 Do you recall Mr. Calder?  28 A  Yes, I know Frank Calder.  But he —  29 Q  He represented Zone 2?  30 A  Oh, yes, that's right.  Um hum.  31 Q  He was a member of the legislative assembly at that  32 time?  33 A  Yes, yes, from the Nass.  3 4 Q  Yes.  He was a Nishga —  35 A  Yes.  36 Q  — gentleman?  37 A  Um num.  3 8    MR. RUSH:  Still is.  39 MR. MACKENZIE:  And he still is a gentleman.  40 MR. RUSH:  And a Nishga.  41 MR. MACKENZIE:  42 Q  And a Nishga.  43 A  He lives just a couple of blocks from here.  44 MR. RUSH:  He likes it here too, I think.  45 MR.   MACKENZIE:  46 Q  Well, I won't comment — I won't ask you questions in  47 detail on these minutes, except I do want to draw your 121  J.V. Boys (for Defendant)  Cross-exam by Mr. Mackenzie  1  2  3  4  5  6  7  A  8  Q  9  10  A  11  Q  12  13  14  A  15  Q  16  A  17  Q  18  19  20  21  22  23  A  24  Q  25  26  27  A  28  Q  29  30  31  A  32  Q  33  34  A  35  Q  36  37  38  39  A  40  41  Q  42  43  A  44  Q  45  46  A  47  Q  attention to the page 127, the summary recommendations  set forth.  Recommendation number 3, "...the minutes  of this and following B.C. Special meetings be  forwarded...to all Agencies so that each Band can be  informed of the proceedings."  And that was one of the  recommendations at that meeting?  Um hum.  And to your knowledge, that in fact had been done and  was — was done?  Yes.  And recommendation number 4 was, "That bands be kept  informed of expenditures as they occur.  This to be  the responsibility of Agency Superintendants"?  Yes.  And that was done to your knowledge?  Those were the instructions, yes.  And referring to the next two pages, pages 129 and  130, these are documents entitled "Proposed  Expenditures (of) B.C. Special Vote, 1962-63."  And  this was a document that would have been reviewed by  the committee at that meeting to which we've just  referred?  Yes, I — yes.  And there is on this particular document on page 1 and  2, or at least pages 129 and 130, a reference to  expenditures for the Babine Agency?  Yes.  In that year, referring to the total amount for the  Babine Agency, there was proposed to be expended  $3,950?  Yes.  You prepared similar documents each year for review by  the advisory committee?  Yes.  The next document is page number 131, the memorandum  from the Indian Commissioner for B.C. to Indian  Affairs Branch, Ottawa dated February 26, 1962.  And  can you identify the signature on that document?  Yes, that's the signature of Bruce Ash, who was the  regional agriculturist.  He was a gentleman assisting you in the discharge of  your duties?  Yes.  And from time to time he would send out letters and  reports over your name —  Yes.  — with your authority? 122  J.V. Boys (for Defendant)  Cross-exam by Mr. Mackenzie  1  A  2  Q  3  4  5  6  A  7  Q  8  9  10  11  A  12  Q  13  14  A  15  Q  16  17  18  A  19  Q  20  21  22  A  23  Q  24  25  26  27  28  A  29  Q  30  31  A  32  Q  33  A  34  Q  35  A  36  Q  37  38  39  40  41  42  A  43  Q  44  45  A  46  Q  47  A  Yes.  And in that letter of February 26, in the last  paragraph, he confirms that the expenditures for the  B.C. Special Vote for 196 2-63 were approved by the  advisory committee?  Yes.  Referring to the next document, page 137, this is a  document — a memorandum from Indian Commissioner to  all superintendants dated April 30, 1962.  Can you  identify the signature on that document?  Yes, that's Mr. Ash's signature.  This memorandum would be sent to the superintendent of  the Babine Agency?  Yes, to all superintendants.  In the first paragraph Mr. Ash refers to presentation  to various band councils of the results of the fourth  meeting of the committee?  Um hum.  And  that's  an  example of  the  communication of  the  committee deliberations  to the bands  in British  Columbia?  Yes.  The second paragraph he indicates — the third  paragraph he requests consultation with the band  councils in each agency relating to recommendations —  I'm sorry — relating to the constitution of the  advisory committee?  Um hum.  He requests that the superintendants carry out that  consultation with the band councils?  Yes.  And the superintendants had a duty to do that?  Yes.  To the best of your knowledge, that was done?  Yes.  Referring to the next document, page 13 9, a  memorandum — I'm not going to deal with that one.  Pull that one out, please.  Referring to the next  document, number 141, this is a memorandum from the  superintendent of the Babine Agency to the Indian  Commissioner for B.C. dated May 7, 1962?  Um hum.  And was  Mr.  Fry  the  superintendent  of  the Babine  Agency at  that  time?  Yes.  Can you identify that — his signature?  Yes. 123  J.V. Boys (for Defendant)  Cross-exam by Mr. Mackenzie  1 Q  Now, Mr. Fry — have you had a chance to review that  2 memorandum, May 7, 196 2?  You're looking at it now.  3 A  Yes, um hum.  4 Q  Mr. Fry confirms that he has circulated copies of the  5 minutes of the advisory committee meeting to the band  6 councils?  7 A  Yes.  8 Q  And, as you have indicated, the Babine Agency includes  9 the Hazelton, Kispiox, Kitwanga —  10 A  Yes.  11 Q  — Kitseguecla, Moricetown, Hagwilget Bands?  12 A  Yeah.  13 Q  As well as Old Fort and —  14 A  Fort Babine.  15 MR. MACKENZIE:  ~ Fort Babine?  16 MS. KOENIGSBERG:  And Glen Vowell.  17 MR.   MACKENZIE:  18 Q  Yes.  And Glen Vowell?  19 A   Yes.  20 Q  Yes.  We haven't mentioned Glen Vowell.  21 Referring to the next document, page 153, a  22 memorandum from Superintendent, Babine Agency to  23 Indian Commissioner for British Columbia, May 31,  24 1962 --  25 A   Yes.  26 Q  — can you identify Mr. Fry's signature —  27 A  No, I can't.  28 Q  — initials on that?  That's a little difficult.  29 A  Yes.  3 0 Q       Can you  confirm  that  this was another  of  Mr.   Fry's  31 reports  on  the  consultation with  the Babine band  32 councils?  33 A  Well, it certainly appears to be, yes.  He's referring  3 4 to two band councils in — in the Babine Agency.  3 5 Q  He also reports in the final sentence that he will  36 continue to consult with the other band councils?  37 A  Yes.  3 8 Q  And indeed he had a duty to do so as part of the  3 9 responsibilities of his position as superintendent?  40 A  Yes.  41 Q  Referring to the next document, page 156, this is a  42 memorandum from Indian Commissioner for B.C. to Indian  43 Affairs Branch dated June 19, 1962.  Can you identify  44 that signature?  45 A  Yes, that's Mr. Ash's signature.  46 Q  This is an example of the reporting function from your  47 office to Indian Affairs Branch, Ottawa — 124  J.V. Boys (for Defendant)  Cross-exam by Mr. Mackenzie  1  A  2  Q  3  A  4  Q  5  6  7  8  A  9  Q  10  A  11  12  Q  13  14  A  15  Q  16  17  A  18  Q  19  A  20  Q  21  22  A  23  Q  24  A  25  Q  26  27  A  28  Q  29  30  31  32  A  33  Q  34  35  A  36  Q  37  A  38  Q  39  40  A  41  42  Q  43  44  A  45  Q  46  47  A  Yes.  — on matters relating to the B.C. Special?  Right.  Moving to the next document, page 157, this is a  memorandum from the Indian Commissioner for B.C. to  superintendants of several agencies, including the  Babine Agency?  Yes.  Can you identify the signature on that document?  Yes, that's Mr. McGregor, who was assistant Indian  Commissioner.  And he was a member of your staff acting with your  authorization —  Yes.  — sending out memoranda and reports from time to time  over your signature — over your name?  Right.  Have you had a chance to look over this memorandum?  Yes.  And this is a — this relates to the election of the  delegates for Zone 2?  Right, um hum.  A delegate to serve on the advisory committee —  Right.  — to advise you on the expenditure of the B.C.  Special Vote?  Right.  The next document is page 158.  It's a memorandum over  your name to all Indian band councils in Zone 2, and  that would include the Babine Agency band councils,  would it not?  Yes, um hum.  And this sets out the selection process for nomination  of ~  That's right.  — delegates?  Um hum.  Yes.  Can you identify that as a memorandum that would  have been sent from your office?  Yes, it appears to be a memorandum of instructions  regarding the election of a representative of Zone 2.  The next document is page 159, and that is the  selection ballot for Zone 2?  Yes.  Can you confirm that that was the form of ballot that  was utilized for the selection of delegates —  Yes. 125  J.V. Boys (for Defendant)  Cross-exam by Mr. Mackenzie  1 Q  — for Zone 2?  2 Yes.  Referring to the next document, page 161,  3 this is a memorandum from you to the Indian Affairs  4 Branch, Ottawa dated April 4, 1963.  And that's your  5 signature on the bottom of that document?  6 A   Yes.  7 Q  And you enclose the minutes of the fifth meeting of  8 the B.C. Special Advisory Committee?  9 A   Yes.  10 Q  And following that is a document dated March 1, 1963,  11 the minutes of the fifth meeting of the committee,  12 pages 163 to 166.  Can you identify your signature on  13 the bottom of page 166?  14 A  Yes.  15 Q  All right.  And those are the minutes of the fifth  16 meeting of the Indian Advisory Committee, correct?  17 A   Yes.  18 Q  And at this time Mr. Hubert Doolan, D-o-o-l-a-n, is  19 the representative for Zone 2, correct?  20 A  Correct, um hum.  21 Q  And finally, I refer to the memorandum from the Indian  22 Commissioner to Indian Affairs Branch dated January  23 30, 1964, pages 172 and 173.  Can you identify the  24 signature on 173?  25 A  Yes, that's signed by Mr. Clark, who was an assistant  26 commissioner.  27 Q  He was assisting you in the discharge of your duties?  28 A   Yes.  29 Q  And with your full authorization?  30 A   Yes.  31 Q  And this document is another in a series of reports to  32 the Indian Affairs Branch on the administration of the  33 B.C. Special Vote?  34 A  Yes.  3 5   MR. MACKENZIE:  Now, I submit that the documents at that tab 9,  36 there are 21 pages, to be marked as the next exhibit.  37 And for clarity, I'm going to just mention the pages.  38 Pages 125 to 131, page 137, page 141, 153, 156 to 159,  39 161, 163 to 166, 172 and 173.  40 MS.   KOENIGSBERG:     There's  a  cover  page.  41  42 (EXHIBIT  46   -  Excerpts   from A.G.   B.C.   3487   relating  to  the  B.C.  43 Special   Vote)  44  45 MR.   MACKENZIE:  46 Q       Now,   that's   Exhibit  46,   which  can  be described  as  47 excerpts   from  A.G.   B.C.   3487   relating  to  the B.C. 126  J.V.   Boys   (for  Defendant)  Cross-exam by  Mr.   Mackenzie  1 Special Vote  2 Okay.  Mr. Boys, you testified that during your  3 term as Indian Commissioner you visited agencies  4 throughout the province?  5 A  Um hum.  6 Q  You visited groups of Indians throughout the  7 province —  8 A   Yes.  9 Q  — during your term, which was from 1961 to 196 9?  10 A   Yes.  11 MR. MACKENZIE:  And was it your conclusion as a result of those  12 visits that the band councils were aware of the  13 expenditures of the B.C. Special Vote?  14 MR. RUSH:  Well, I object to that.  15 MR. MACKENZIE:  16 Q  Did you receive any indication during those visits  17 that the band councils —  18 A  I can't recollect whether that was on the agenda or  19 not.  20 Q  As you mentioned before, if — if there had been a  21 failure to discharge duties on the parts of your — on  22 the part of your superintendants, you would have  23 observed that during your visits to the agencies and  24 Indian groups?  25 A   Yes.  26 Q  Some concluding questions.  In this action hereditary  27 chiefs of the Gitksan and Wet'suwet'en people claim  28 ownership of a vast area of land from Burns Lake north  29 to the Skeena and Nass headwaters.  They have filed  30 affidavits setting out specific boundaries of family  31 territories making up this claim.  During your time as  32 Indian Superintendent and as Indian Commissioner did  33 anyone advise you of such ownership claims?  34 A   No.  3 5 Q  Did anyone ever refuse to permit the registration and  36 servicing of traplines because of such territorial  37 ownership?  38 A  No.  3 9 Q  In this action the Gitksan and Wet'suwet'en chiefs  40 allege they have managed that area since time  41 immemorial according to their Indian laws and customs.  42 Did anyone advise you of Indian laws governing the  43 management of those areas?  4 4 A  No.  45 Q  During your time with the — during your time as  46 Indian Commissioner and as Indian Superintendent were  47 you aware of Indian laws conflicting with the normal 127  J.V. Boys (for Defendant)  Cross-exam by Mr. Mackenzie  1 civil and criminal laws of British Columbia and  2 Canada?  3 A  No, not to my recollection.  4 MR. MACKENZIE:  And during your time as Indian Commissioner of  5 British Columbia and Indian Superintendent in Hazelton  6 at all times the Indian people in the Babine Agency,  7 to your knowledge, complied with the general -- with  8 the civil and criminal laws of British Columbia and  9 Canada?  10 MR. RUSH:  I object to that.  How can he possibly answer that?  11 How can he possibly answer it for any community?  How  12 could anybody answer it for any community?  13 MR. MACKENZIE:  During your time at Hazelton and as Indian  14 Commissioner you were not aware of any general failure  15 to comply with civil and criminal laws of British  16 Columbia and Canada by the Indian people of the Babine  17 Agency?  18 MR. RUSH:  Same objection.  19 THE WITNESS:  There was no — no organized insurrection or  20 anything of that nature, no.  I don't know of any  21 organized effort to fail to comply with any of the  22 laws of Canada or British Columbia.  There may have  23 been individual cases of breaking the law, but other  24 than that, no, I don't know of -- of any general  25 breakdown of the laws of the country.  26 MR.   MACKENZIE:  27 Q       And from your testimony, at all times that you were  28 involved the Indian Affairs Branch accepted provincial  29 jurisdiction over land and resources in British  30 Columbia?  31 A  Yes.  32 Q  And that acceptance was reflected in the administra-  33 tion of the Indian Act in the Babine Agency?  3 4 A   Yes.  3 5 Q  Were you involved at any time in the organization of a  36 Tribal Council?  37 A  What do you refer to as the Tribal Councils?  3 8 Q  I'm wondering whether this occurred after your term of  39 office, the organization of Tribal Councils in  40 different agencies to take over administration of  41 certain local matters?  42 A  No, I — I organized — during my term of office in  43 Vancouver I organized what was known as District  44 Councils, and that is getting all of the bands  45 together in the agency to formulate the agency  46 estimates.  Each — each agency sent delegates to a  47 District Council at which the objectives of the 128  J.V. Boys (for Defendant)  Cross-exam by Mr. Mackenzie  Cross-exam by Mr. Rush  1 following year band by band were discussed and then  2 estimates made for the carrying out of — the cost of  3 carrying out of those proposed programmes.  4 Q  And to your knowledge, was such a District Council  5 formed in the Babine Agency?  6 A   Yes.  7 Q       And would  that  council   have had  a  title  or  8 designation?  9 A  Just the District Council.  10 Q  Yes.  Does the term Gitksan Carrier District Council  11 have any familiarity to you?  12 A  No.  13 Q  Okay.  And to summarize, at all times during your  14 career you were acting in what you considered to be  15 the best interests of the Indians of British Columbia?  16 A  Yes.  17 Q  And during your time in Hazelton and when you were  18 Indian Commissioner you perceived there was a need for  19 the services you were delivering to the Indians in  20 British Columbia?  21 A  Yes.  22 Q  And is it fair to say that the policy of you and your  23 colleagues was at all times to bring the Indians of  24 British Columbia, including the Babine Agency, towards  25 increasing administration of their affairs?  26 A  Definitely, yes.  27 MR. MACKENZIE:  No — oh, I'd like to take about five minutes.  28 I've finished my cross-examination subject to just a  29 review of my questions.  30  31 (PROCEEDINGS ADJOURNED AT 10:45 A.M.)  32 (PROCEEDINGS RECONVENED AT 10:55 A.M.)  33  3 4    CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR. RUSH:  35 Q  All right.  Mr. Boys, I can begin my cross-examination  36 of you.  I have a number of questions, and I want to  37 ask you — and I want to first begin by asking you  3 8 about some of the period prior to your taking the post  3 9 of the Indian Agent at the Babine Agency.  I  40 understand from your evidence that you came to Canada  41 from England in 1930?  42 A  Right.  43 Q  And that you joined the B.C. Police Force in April of  44 '32?  45 A  Right.  46 Q       And   then  you were  posted  to Telegraph  Creek?  47 A       Yes,   in — about a year later. 129  J.V. Boys (for Defendant)  Cross-exam by Mr. Rush  1  Q  2  A  3  Q  4  5  A  6  7  Q  8  9  A  10  Q  11  A  12  13  Q  14  A  15  16  17  18  Q  19  A  20  21  22  Q  23  A  24  Q  25  26  A  27  28  Q  29  30  31  A  32  Q  33  A  34  Q  35  A  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  Q  Would that be about April of 1933, is it?  Yes, May 1933.  Okay.  And you told us that you were in Telegraph  Creek for about four and a half years?  Yes, um hum, till the — the end of the summer of  1937.  And you told us that while you were at Telegraph Creek  you met some Indian people from Bear Lake?  Yes.  And how did you know they were from Bear Lake?  Well, one of them was Bear Lake Charlie, and I talked  with them.  Okay.  And they — they brought in a number of wolves, and we  were paying bounty on wolves at that time.  That was  one of my responsibilities.  I was also representing  the game department.  All right.  And these Indians who camped across the Stikine River  from Telegraph Creek brought their skins in, their  wolf pelts in.  Do you  know how  they got  up  there?  How   they  got?  To where you were posted.  I presume this was in  Telegraph Creek?  Well, at that time everybody just walked wherever they  went.  Right.  Now, you told Mr. Mackenzie that you thought  that in fact the people from Bear Lake, the Indian  people there, were Sekani?  Sekani?  Yes.  That's my understanding.  How did you know that?  From — well, I didn't — I didn't know it at that  time, but through later discussions with my — with my  counterpart, who was stationed in the Stuart Lake  Agency and at that time stationed at Vanderhoop.  And  I used to meet with him from time to time in Burns  Lake or on the boundary of our — of our agencies.  This was while I was in Hazelton.  And we discussed  this, and I told him that I knew some of the Indians  from his agency from an earlier time, some of the Bear  Lakers who went up, and in particular that I knew some  of the — of the Bear Lake family, that is Bear Lake  Charlie and his family.  Who was your counterpart? 130  J.V. Boys (for Defendant)  Cross-exam by Mr. Rush  1  A  2  3  Q  4  5  A  6  Q  7  8  A  9  10  11  Q  12  13  A  14  Q  15  16  A  17  Q  18  A  19  20  Q  21  22  A  23  Q  24  25  26  27  28  29  A  30  Q  31  32  A  33  Q  34  35  36  A  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  Q  At that time it was — I'm sorry, my memory for names  is not as good as it might be.  This would be an Indian Agent in the Stuart Lake  Agency?  Yes.  And it was this person who told you that the Bear Lake  Indian people were Sekani?  Sikanni.  I think that was the term that he used.  S-i-k-a-n-n-i, I think, was the — yes, I think that's  what he said.  All right.  And the period of time that you're talking  about that he told you this information?  This would be in — sometime between 1946 and 1951.  Oh, I see.  So it was later during the period of your  tenure —  Yes.  -- as Indian Agent in the Babine Agency?  That I heard these people referred to as — as  Sikanni, yes.  And referred to by your counterpart in the Stuart Lake  Agency?  Yes.  All right.  Now, just to go back to the chronology of  your pre-Babine Agency work activity, I understand  from your evidence that as a member of the B.C. Police  Force you told us that you went to the Nicola Valley  and to Kamloops, and you were stationed in those two  places for a period of time?  Right, um hum.  And in those places were you involved in general  policing duties?  Yes.  I take it that there wasn't anything specifically  related to the — to Indian people that you were  involved with?  No, not specifically.  In Merritt, which was the  headquarters of the Nicola Valley Indian Agency — it  was also my headquarters, my detachment  headquarters — there was a detachment of mounted  police, who — who were at the disposal, shall we say,  of the Indian Agent there.  There had been a rather  celebrated murder case, the — my predecessor in the  B.C. Police and the — and the Indian constable who  was on the staff of the Indian Agent had been murdered  by Indians at Canford.  This trial was known as the —  well, this case was known as the George brothers case.  It's before my time, Mr. Boys. 131  J.V. Boys (for Defendant]  Cross-exam by Mr. Rush  1  A  2  3  4  5  6  7  Q  8  9  10  11  A  12  Q  13  A  14  Q  15  16  A  17  Q  18  19  A  20  Q  21  A  22  Q  23  24  25  26  27  A  28  Q  29  A  30  Q  31  32  A  33  Q  34  A  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  Q  44  45  A  46  47  Yeah, I'm sure.  But I'm just explaining that  following the — the death of this special constable,  the R.C.M.P. put in a detachment of R.C.M.P. to deal  with Indian matters.  Now, they dealt with Indian  matters except criminal matters affecting the Indians,  and that was my responsibility.  All right.  But my question to you was in relation to  your policing duties in the Nicola Valley.  There was  nothing that was specifically oriented to policing of  Indian people or the management —  No.  — or administration of Indian Affairs?  No.  And  that's   similarly   the  case  with  your  tenure  in  Kamloops?  That's right.  Now, you told us as well that in 1941 you joined the  Air Force?  Yes.  And I understand you served as a pilot?  No, I served as a navigator.  A navigator.  And what did you do as a navigator?  I  mean, I know the functions of a navigator, but perhaps  I should tell you what my understanding is.  That you  were involved in ferrying aircraft across the  Atlantic?  Yes.  That is to say, between North America and England?  Yes.  And that's where you carried on principally your  navigation functions?  For a large part of the time, yes.  And where were you stationed?  Well, I was stationed in — first of all, in Montreal,  Dorval Airport, and then I was stationed in the  Bahamas.  And we had — we were getting a number of  Lend-Lease aircraft from the U.S. Government, and  these were picked up in various parts of the United  States and then flown to — first of all flown to  Cairo and Alexandria, and then later just left at  Accra in Ghana, that's A-c-c-r-a, and G-h-a-n-a.  What  is now Ghana.  You preferred your stationing in the Bahamas than that  at Dorval?  Well,   I wasn't  there —  I wasn't at either  of  them  very much.     We were given  three days  to get our  laundry done and  turn around,   so I really didn't have 132  J.V. Boys (for Defendant)  Cross-exam by Mr. Rush  1  2  Q  3  A  4  Q  5  A  6  Q  7  8  A  9  Q  10  11  12  13  A  14  Q  15  A  16  Q  17  A  18  Q  19  A  20  Q  21  22  A  23  Q  24  25  A  26  27  28  Q  29  30  A  31  Q  32  33  A  34  Q  35  A  36  Q  37  A  38  Q  39  40  A  41  Q  42  A  43  Q  44  A  45  Q  46  A  47  Q  much time to enjoy either of them.  When did you return to Canada?  In the end of 1945.  Would that be in December of '45?  Somewhere around there.  All right.  And did you return to any policing  function when you returned to Canada?  No.  Now, you told us that when you applied for a position  with the Indian Affairs Branch it was in the position  of — for the position of the Indian Agent in  Cranbrook; is that right?  Yes.  And that was in 1946 I think you told us?  Yes.  And you went to Cranbrook for a period of time?  That's right.  And you then ceased your duties there in Cranbrook?  Um hum.  And you then took up your duties in — in the Babine  Agency in Hazelton?  That's right.  And my understanding is that you took up your duties  there in September of 1946?  I think it was a little before that, but roughly.  Maybe July or August.  I — I'm not — I'm not  positive just when it was.  All right.  Would it be fair to say that it was  sometime in the late summer of '46?  Yes.  All right.  And Hazelton was the centre of the Babine  Agency —  Yes.  — office; is that correct?  Right.  There was an office there?  That's right.  And that's where you took up your administrative  duties?  Right, um hum.  Okay.  And you replaced a Mr. Mallinson —  Yes.  — is that right?  Yes.  Was Mr. Mallinson retiring?  No.  He was being transferred? 133  J.V. Boys (for Defendant)  Cross-exam by Mr. Rush  1  A  2  Q  3  A  4  Q  5  A  6  Q  7  A  8  Q  9  A  10  Q  11  12  A  13  14  Q  15  16  A  17  Q  18  A  19  Q  20  A  21  Q  22  23  24  A  25  Q  26  27  28  A  29  Q  30  31  A  32  Q  33  A  34  Q  35  A  36  Q  37  38  39  A  40  Q  41  A  42  43  44  45  46  47  Q  No, he was -- he was released.  He was released.  What was Mr. Mallinson's first name?  I think it was Sid.  Okay.  Did you talk with him?  No, I didn't meet him.  You came into an office that was absent —  Um hum.  — an agent?  Um hum.  All right.  And do you know how long Mr. Mallinson had  been in Hazelton?  No, I really don't.  I know that he had been there at  least three years, but just how long I'm not sure.  There were obviously items of correspondence and  memos —  Oh, yes.  — and so on that were left from him?  Yes.  And you're familiar with his signature?  Yes.  Now, as I understand it, when you began your functions  as an Indian Agent, that there wasn't any particular  training that you undertook for that job?  No specific training period, no.  And I think that you've indicated that what guided  some of your work were circulars which you had access  to?  Um hum.  And as well I think you indicated there was an order  book that --  Yeah.  — that was retained in the local office?  That's right.  And as well the Indian Act?  Yes.  And would it be fair to say that in respect of your  duties that the main instructional elements that  guided you were those three items?  Yes.  The order book, the circulars, and the Indian Act?  Yes.  I should mention, however, that when I went up  there, I was accompanied by Mr. Coleman, who was the  Inspector of Indian Agencies, and it was his  responsibility to examine affairs at the agency as Mr.  Mallinson had left them, and then to, shall we say,  break me in in the agency.  Well, he introduced you to the agency, didn't he? 13 4  J.V. Boys (for Defendant)  Cross-exam by Mr. Rush  1 A  That's right.  2 Q  And then he left?  3 A   Yes.  4 Q  You knew Mr. Coleman for — he had been in his  5 position as an inspector for how long?  6 A  Oh, I have no idea how long, but for some time.  7 Q  And he was an inspector for certainly a period of the  8 time that you were the Indian Agent —  9 A   Yes.  10 Q  — at Hazelton?  11 A   Right.  12 Q  What was the inspector's role?  Was he kind of a  13 floating person that moved around —  14 A  Yes.  15 Q  — agency to agency?  16 A  Yes, he was -- he was the second in command, I would  17 say, to the Indian Commissioner.  18 Q  And do you recall who it was that you employed when  19 you first started work there in the latter part of the  20 summer of '46?  21 A  I can't recall the name of the young lady who was at  22 the agency — at the commissioner's office in  23 Vancouver who kindly undertook to go back for a period  24 of one month to help out, but when she left, there was  25 nobody for a while, and then I got the services of  26 Marie Janze.  Now, Marie Janze was a local girl whose  27 parentage was part Indian.  She had been in the  28 women's army corps overseas, and I think she had  29 attained the rank of sergeant as a — on the clerical  30 staff, and I employed her.  31 Q  And then following that you told us that Margaret  32 Harris was stenographer clerk in the office?  33 A   Yes.  3 4 Q  Your first language is English?  35 A   Yes.  36 Q  And you didn't then speak Gitksan?  37 A   No.  3 8 Q  And you don't speak it today?  39 A  No, I don't.  40 Q  And you don't speak Carrier?  41 A  No.  42 Q  You never spoke and you don't speak today Carrier?  43 A  No.  44 Q       And  it's  the  case  that you didn't  understand  the  45 Gitksan  or  Carrier languages?  46 A       No,   I  didn't.  47 Q  There was no training in that for you, was there? 135  J.V. Boys (for Defendant)  Cross-exam by Mr. Rush  1  A  2  Q  3  4  5  A  6  Q  7  8  A  9  Q  10  A  11  Q  12  13  A  14  Q  15  A  16  Q  17  18  A  19  20  21  22  Q  23  A  24  Q  25  26  A  27  Q  28  A  29  Q  30  31  A  32  Q  33  A  34  35  Q  36  A  37  Q  38  A  39  Q  40  41  42  A  43  44  45  46  47  No.  Now, I think you told us that you were the Indian  Agent for the Babine Agency in Hazelton until June of  1951?  Yes.  All right.  And as I understand it, that was except  for a period of time when you resigned your post?  Yes.  There  were  —  rather   two months  —  That's  right.  — when you resigned your post as the Indian Agent; is  that right?  Yes.  And that was in December and January of 1946?  Yes, that's right.  And the reason for your resignation was that you had a  dispute over certain policies; is that correct?  Yes, I was not satisfied — for one thing, I was not  satisfied to bring my family up to the living quarters  that were supplied for me until such time as they were  refurbished.  You had a family?  I had a family.  You had a -- you were married and at that time had a  young daughter?  Right, um hum.  How  old was your  daughter?  In 19   —   she  would  have been  seven.  The dispute  that  you  had with  the  — was   this with  your   superiors   in  Vancouver?  Yes.  With whom in particular?  Well, my — all of my correspondence was directed to  the Indian Commissioner.  And who was that then?  That was D.M. MacKay.  All right.  You know Mr. MacKay1s signature, do you?  Yes.  And as I understand it, there was some disagreement  between yourself and the — Mr. MacKay over a question  of the implementation of certain policies; is that so?  I can't actually recollect all of the problems.  One  of the problems was staffing.  I considered it quite  inadequate.  They resented my taking on Marie Janze  without first consulting with the Indian Commissioner  in Vancouver, and these were some of the things that  were problems. 136  J.V. Boys (for Defendant)  Cross-exam by Mr. Rush  1 Q  All right.  I have a letter here from a Mr. Coleman.  2 It's the A.G. of Canada document number 10819, and  3 it's dated December 19th, 1946, from Mr. Coleman to  4 Inspector Van Dyk.  5 A  Um hum.  6 MR. RUSH:  I do not have copies of these.  This results from my  7 recent perusal of some of the documents.  8 MS. KOENIGSBERG:  Go ahead.  We can share it.  I'll see if I can  9 scare up a copy.  10 MR. RUSH:  11 Q  Do you recognize Mr. Coleman's signature?  12 A  Yes.  13 Q  Mr. Coleman replaced you as an Indian Agent in the  14 Babine Agency —  15 A  Yeah.  16 Q  — during the time of your resignation —  17 A  Yes.  18 Q  — is that correct?  19 A  Yes.  20 Q  All right.  Who is Mr. Van Dyk?  21 A  He was the inspector of the game department in Prince  22 George, I think.  Yes, that's right.  23 MR. RUSH:  All right.  24 MS. KOENIGSBERG:  Give Mr. Rush back his copy.  25 MR. RUSH:  Thank you.  I'd like to mark that as an exhibit now.  26  27 (EXHIBIT 47 - Letter dated December 19, 1946, to Inspector Van  28 Dyk from J. Coleman)  29  3 0 MR. RUSH:  31 Q  Mr. Boys, do you recall the exact date on which you  32 took up your duties again as the Indian Agent in the  33 Babine Agency after your resignation?  3 4 A  No, I don't recall the exact date, but I would say  3 5 that I was away from, oh, early January until the  36 latter part of — I mean early December until possibly  37 early February.  3 8         Q  All right.  3 9 A  That part.  40 Q  That is my piecing together as well from the —  41 A  Yeah.  42 Q  — material —  43 A  Roughly.  44 Q  — I've seen.  45 From the early part of December to the early part  46 of February of 1947; would that be correct?  47 A  Yes. 137  J.V. Boys (for Defendant)  Cross-exam by Mr. Rush  1 Q  The letter that Mr. Coleman penned on December the  2 19th, 1946, says in part, and I quote:  3  4 "There appears to be a whole flock of grief  5 here re traplines, and I am unable to find  6 the Game Act and the regulations in the  7 office or anything else."  8  9 Would you agree with that observation of Mr. Coleman  10 as at the time that you left the office?  11 A  I would agree that I inherited an unholy mess and that  12 I hadn't had an opportunity of cleaning it all up by  13 the time Mr. Coleman replaced me, yes.  14 Q  Well, I — the statement here says "a whole flock of  15 grief."  16 A   Yeah.  17 Q  I don't think he meant geese, but grief.  18 A  Grief I'm sure.  19 Q  And I take it that that in some part reflects  20 attitudes by native Indian people with regard to  21 traplines?  22 A  Well, I don't know what was in his mind.  I — I think  23 we have to bear in mind that he wasn't exactly pleased  24 with the prospect of having to spend his Christmas and  25 New Year in Hazelton.  26 Q  Is that where you spent it?  27 A  No.  I mean I was away.  He was going to have to spend  28 his Christmas and New Year in Hazelton looking after  29 the agency, and I think he was not in the best frame  3 0 of mind probably during the time that he was up there.  31 Q  When you came back in February in 1947, would you  32 agree with the statement of Mr. Coleman as well?  33 A  Oh, yes, things were still far from the way I would --  3 4 I would like to have seen them.  But —  35 Q  All right.  36 A   — it took time.  37 Q  And you would agree that so far as there being, as he  38 says, "a whole flock of grief here re the traplines,"  3 9            that this was the situation as it persisted into the  40 spring of '47?  41 A  Yes.  42 Q  You, I take it, for the Christmas of '46-'47 moved out  43 of the Hazelton area?  44 A  Well, I -- I went south when — when I resigned, I  45 left the Hazelton area.  I went south and spent some  46 time with my wife and small daughter.  47 Q  Did you have any other children? 13 8  J.V.   Boys   (for  Defendant)  Cross-exam by  Mr.   Rush  1 A  No.  2 Q  You just had the one daughter; is that correct?  3 A  Um hum, at that time.  4 Q  Yes.  And later you — I understand you had — did you  5 have other children?  6 A  Yes.  7 Q  And how many other children did you have?  8 A  I just have one other daughter.  9 Q  Now, was there an office — excuse me — was there a  10 residence for the Indian Agent —  11 A  Yes.  12 Q  — in Hazelton?  13 A  Yes.  14 Q  And that residence was located in the Village of  15 Hazelton; is that right?  16 A  It was located right — it was sort of an enclave  17 right in the middle of the reserve, the Hazelton  18 Reserve.  19 Q  Did you know that to be the Gitanmaax Reserve?  20 A  Yes.  21 Q  The Village of Hazelton was located right in the  22 middle of the Gitanmaax Reserve —  23 A  Yes, it was.  24 Q  — is that right?  25 A  It was, yeah.  It was contiguous and — yes, that's  26 correct.  It was surrounded by the Indian reserve  27 pretty well.  28 Q  The Indian Agent's residence, was that not on reserve  29 land?  30 A  Yes.  31 Q       Yes.     And  there  were  other  stores  and  residences  of  32 non-reserve  people on  the  reserve as well?  33 A       No.  3 4 Q       No?  3 5 A       There was  one  other  small   residence on  the  reserve  36 that was   rented  from an  Indian,   and  the —   the  37 telegraph  operator was  living there with  his wife.  3 8 Q       And you  —  3 9 A      But  — but  there was a non-Indian  town-site  of  40 Hazelton  down  along  the  river,   and  the  stores  and  the  41 other   facilities were all   in a —  in a non-Indian  42 village.     It  —  it was  not —  it was  unorganized  43 territory  at  that  time.  44 Q       This was  an  area adjacent  to the Skeena River  that was  45 not —  46 A  Yeah.  47 Q  — on reserve land, you say? 13 9  J.V. Boys (for Defendant)  Cross-exam by Mr. Rush  1  A  2  Q  3  4  A  5  Q  6  A  7  8  9  10  11  Q  12  13  14  A  15  Q  16  A  17  Q  18  19  20  A  21  Q  22  23  24  A  25  Q  26  A  27  Q  28  A  29  Q  30  31  A  32  Q  33  34  A  35  Q  36  A  37  38  Q  39  A  40  41  Q  42  A  43  44  Q  45  A  46  Q  47  Right.  And at that location there were some buildings and  residences owned by non-Indian people?  Yes.  And by some Indian people?  I can't recollect that any Indian people were living  actually off the reserve.  Had they been, presumably  they would have been required to pay taxes, whereas by  staying on reserve they would — they would be immune  from taxation.  Now, as I understand your job as the Indian Agent, as  I heard your testimony, you said that you administered  matters pertaining to education —  Um hum.  — and housing —  Um hum.  — health and welfare, and relations with bands,  employment of people, and estate and traplines; is  that right?  Yes.  Would it be fair to say that your job there in  Hazelton as Indian Agent was to administer the affairs  of Indian people under the Indian Act?  Yes.  Would it be fair to describe you as an administrator?  Yes.  Now, your task was in part to maintain certain files?  Yes.  And this you endeavoured to do throughout the period  of time that you were there?  Um hum.  At some point in your tenure as Indian Agent your  staff increased in size?  Yes.  And you took on at least one other person?  I took on — oh — two other — two other people by  the time I left.  I think I had.  Who else did you take on?  I took on Margaret Harris from the Kispiox Reserve and  later Mr. — Mr. Appleby.  Now, just —  Mr. Appleby was assigned — was assigned to me as  assistant.  Yes.  Mr. Appleby was a non-Indian?  Mr. Appleby was a non-Indian, right.  And he — and do you recall what period of time it was  that Mr. Appleby started with you? 140  J.V. Boys (for Defendant)  Cross-exam by Mr. Rush  1 A  Not accurately.  I would say about 1948, probably.  2 Q  It sounds to be about two years into your tenure?  3 A  Yes.  4 Q  And was he designated any specific roles?  5 A  Yes, some — some specific roles.  He — he did some  6 of the estates, he did some of the traplines, he — he  7 attended a number of the meetings with me and took  8 minutes, and he worked with — he had the  9 responsibility for obtaining building supplies for the  10 building programme and keeping in touch with the  11 professional carpenters we employed, who were  12 supported by the Indian or somebody designated by the  13 Indian for whom the house was being built.  This was  14 the system and —  15 Q  He administered, did he not, many of the traplines  16 files?  17 A   Yes.  18 Q  His name appears on several of the applications?  19 A  Yes.  20 Q  And in much of the correspondence?  21 A  Um hum.  22 Q  Is it fair to say that his responsibility — he had a  23 delegated responsibility to look after trapline  24 registrations and applications and re-registrations?  25 A   Yeah, but not all of them.  26 Q  Not exclusively.  I'm not suggesting that.  27 A  No.  But, yeah, that was certainly one of his  28 assignments.  29 Q  And how long was Mr. Appleby in the Babine Agency?  30 A   I can't recollect.  In fact, I really don't know when  31 he left.  I was out of touch after I left Hazelton.  I  32 left in '51, and it was not until 1961 that I was  33 appointed Indian Commissioner, so there was a ten-year  3 4 period.  And when I next encountered Mr. Appleby, he  3 5 was stationed somewhere in the south, and I don't  36 recollect exactly where.  37 Q  All right.  Mr. Appleby did not speak or understand  3 8 Gitksan or Carrier?  3 9 A  No.  We were very fortunate in having both Marie Janze  40 and Margaret Harris, who spoke the language of the  41 Gitksan people.  We didn't have anybody in the office  42 who spoke any of the Carrier languages.  43 Q  The people -- the Gitskan people whom you encountered,  44 would it be fair, from your encounters with them in  45 the period that you were the Indian Agent, to describe  46 them as independent people?  47 A  Certainly more independent than the people to the 141  J.V. Boys (for Defendant)  Cross-exam by Mr. Rush  1  2  Q  3  4  5  A  6  Q  7  8  9  10  11  A  12  13  14  Q  15  16  17  18  A  19  20  21  22  Q  23  A  24  25  26  Q  27  28  A  29  Q  30  31  A  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  Q  42  A  43  Q  44  A  45  C  46  A  47  Q  east, the Carrier people, yes.  Well, my question is from your judgments of them,  they — and your encounters with them, they were  independent and proud people?  Yes, um hum.  And my understanding is that in respect of one of your  duties, that is to say, the administration of welfare,  that there was little, if any, reliance on welfare by  the Gitksan people in the period of your tenure as the  Indian Agent?  I would say that would apply certainly among the  employable people.  Only those who — who urgently  required some help would apply for welfare.  Isn't it the case, Mr. Boys, that very little welfare  was distributed among the Gitksan or indeed the  Carrier people that were under your Babine Agency  jurisdiction?  No, no, there was a fair amount of welfare.  Unfortunately, it was — it was in a form that to me  was most unacceptable.  It was sent as a form of  rations to a store.  What was the form of it?  It was — well, an order was made to a store to supply  provisions.  It wasn't until some years later that the  recipient of welfare got a cheque.  So you're not — in this period you're not talking  about any money transferring?  No.  You're talking about some kind of credit system at a  local store?  I'm talking about an order sent to a local store.  We  would simply ask the applicant where he or she would  like to purchase their provisions, and then there was  a form in the office on which an order was written  out, and that was directed to the store where the  applicant wanted to deal, and those provisions were  supplied, and then when the — when the store's  account came in, the — the original order form was  attached to the account.  And that was the method by  which the —  Sorry.  — welfare was — was distributed in those times.  There was no cash distribution during —  No.  — your tenure?  No.  You talked -- 142  J.V.   Boys   (for  Defendant)  Cross-exam by  Mr.   Rush  1  A  2  3  4  Q  5  6  7  A  8  Q  9  A  10  Q  11  A  12  Q  13  A  14  Q  15  A  16  17  Q  18  A  19  Q  20  21  A  22  C  23  A  24  Q  25  26  27  A  28  Q  29  30  A  31  Q  32  A  33  Q  34  A  35  Q  36  A  37  Q  38  A  39  40  41  Q  42  43  A  44  45  46  47  Not  until  —  not  — not  for welfare.     It was  during  that  period  that  family allowances  came in,  and  that  was a most welcome  form of  cash.  Well,   I wanted  to ask you about  that.     The family  allowance was  a post-war  creation  of  the government  of  the day?  Yeah.  And can you tell us when it was that it was —  Implemented?  Yes.  I would say —  In that area?  — roughly about 1947.  Okay.  It was — it was universal across Canada.  I mean,  everybody received it at the same time.  These are the — the mothers, are they?  Yes.  These were -- the monies were sent to the mothers  of ~  Children.  — of children?  Yes.  All right.  Now, Mr. Boys, you say that for a period  of time you worked in the inspection services of  Citizenship and Immigration?  Yes.  And I take it that for that period of time you left  the Indian Affairs department?  Yes.  And that was for a period of about two years?  That's right.  In '61 ~  From — yeah, from —  Up to '61 I think it is?  Yeah.  So it would be '58 to '61?  •59.  I left the Babine — the Cowichan Agency on  Vancouver Island in 1959 and returned to Vancouver in  '61.  All right.  Where were you posted when you were with  inspection services?  My headquarters was in Ottawa, but I travelled — I  was given responsibility for the countries of the  Mediterranean and the Middle East, and the purpose of  this was to determine if illegal immigrants were  coming into Canada, and if so, in what numbers and 143  J.V.   Boys   (for   Defendant)  Cross-exam by  Mr.   Rush  1  2  Q  3  A  4  Q  5  6  A  7  8  9  10  11  12  Q  13  A  14  Q  15  16  A  17  Q  18  19  20  A  21  Q  22  A  23  Q  24  25  26  A  27  Q  28  A  29  Q  30  A  31  Q  32  33  34  35  36  A  37  Q  38  39  40  A  41  Q  42  A  43  Q  44  45  46  A  47  Q  what  could be  done  to  stop this.  Did  this  require  travelling  out  of  the  country?  Oh,   yes.  Okay.  It wouldn't have required much in the way of  travel in British Columbia?  Yes, the first — the first part of it entailed a good  deal of travel to British Columbia because we — I'm  speaking of the other man who was appointed at the  same time as I to do this — we both worked on the  Chinese immigration at that time, and a great deal of  the Chinese immigration came through Vancouver.  It certainly did.  Yeah.  So you were involved with the immigration from Hong  Kong and mainland China?  Yeah, um hum.  All right.  And when you took up your position as the  Indian Commissioner for the Province of British  Columbia, you did so in the City of Vancouver?  Right.  That's where the main office was located —  That's right.  — at the time?  And so you resided in the City of Vancouver from  •61 to 1969 —  Yes.  — prior to your retirement?  Um hum.  Or prior to your taking a post in Victoria?  Right, um hum.  All right.  Mr. Boys, I'd like to refer you to the  document that should be the first of the documents in  front of you that was presented to you by Ms.  Koenigsberg.  It's Exhibit 1.  Do you have that  document in front of you?  Yes.  Yes.  And this document is dated June 6th, 1947, and this  would be slightly under a year after you were in the  Babine Agency?  Yes.  That's right?  Um hum.  Now, I'd like to direct your attention, please, to the  second paragraph, and I wonder if you'd just look at  that paragraph for a moment and read it to yourself?  Yes.  Now, you understood at that time that the descent 144  J.V.   Boys   (for  Defendant)  Cross-exam by  Mr.   Rush  1 rules  of  the  crest  system,   as  you called  it,   required  2 that  the property  of  a deceased chief  or person went  3 to  the  successor  in his  clan or  crest?  4 A  Yes.  5 Q  Now, if you look at the sentence that says, and it's  6 again the first sentence, and I quote:  7  8 "...the descent of trapping rights as of real  9 and personal property, has been in any  10 direction..."  11  12 And I draw your attention to the words "in any  13 direction."  Am I correct in suggesting that when you  14 said "in any direction" there, that you meant a  15 direction that was a succession of the property in the  16 clan or the crest as you understood it?  17 A  Yes, that was my understanding, but that it was in a  18 direction other than to the immediate successor, the  19 immediate heir to the deceased, according to the  20 Indian Act.  21 Q  Right.  You had an understanding of the rules of the  22 descent of property as set out and required in the  23 Indian Act?  24 A  Yes.  25 Q       And when  you  —  and  there was  conflict with   the  —   the  26 descent rules  of   the Gitksan?  27 A   Right.  28 Q  And in respect of those rules, the conflict arose  29 because the Gitksan people sought to devolve their  3 0 property to others in their crest?  31 A  Right, um hum.  32 Q       And  therein was  the  conflict with  the  Indian  Act  33 succession rules?  3 4 A       Right.  3 5 Q       Because  under   the  administration  provisions  of   the  36 Indian  Act,   those rules  required  that  property  devolve  37 to,   as you've  said,   immediate heirs?  3 8 A       Um hum.  3 9 Q       And by  that you meant  to  say to the wife or   to  the  40 children of  the deceased person?  41 A       Yeah.     The  Indian Act of  that  time I  think  42 specifically  stipulated  that a  one-third  interest  in  43 the  estate  of  an  intestate  person devolved  to  the  4 4 widow and  two thirds  to  the  surviving  children.  45  46 (OFF THE RECORD DISCUSSION)  47 MR. RUSH: 145  J.V.   Boys   (for  Defendant)  Cross-exam by  Mr.   Rush  1 Q       Now,   Mr.   Boys,   would you agree with me  that  the  2 conflict with  the rules of  descent  under  the Indian  3 Act and  the  rules  of  descent  under  the  crest   system  4 intensified  —  perhaps  I  should ask you  — began with  5 the  insistence  of   the  Indian Agents  in  enforcing  the  6 provisions  of   the  Indian  Act?  7 A       Well,   I  don't know where  it began,   but  certainly   that  8 was  —  that was  the basis  of  the conflict at  the  time  9 that  I  was  administering  the  affairs  at  the agency.  10 Q       The  —  this was  not a  new  conflict  to  the agency,  was  11 it?     I  mean,   it  pre-dated your  tenure?  12 A       Apparently  not,   although my predecessor hadn't  done  13 very  much  in  the way  of  getting  traplines  registered.  14 Q       Well,   I want  --  15 A  From all appearances.  16 MR. RUSH:  Your regard for your predecessor was not very high at  17 the time?  18 MS.   KOENIGSBERG:     Well,   I   don't   think   that's  a  proper  question.  19 I  don't  think   it's  relevant.  20 MR. RUSH:  21 Q  It's a proper question, but I don't think we need to  22 pursue it.  23 Mr. Boys, Mr. Mallinson had in fact, had he not,  24 raised the question of the conflict, if you will,  25 between the two systems of devolving property with the  26 superintendent, Mr. MacKay?  27 A   Yeah, I think — I think I recollect reading that.  28 Q  All right.  Would it be your — would you agree with  29 the statement that a large majority of traplines in  30 the Babine Agency belonged to crests or sub-crests?  31 A  Yeah.  Well, a lot of them were marked down as — as  3 2 crest areas or company areas.  Very often the — the  33 marking on the map would be somebody and company.  34 Q  All right.  It would be the case, would it not, Mr.  3 5 Boys, that almost all of the traplines in the Babine  36 Agency were company traplines?  37 A  Not in the eastern half of the agency.  A large  3 8 proportion of them in the — in the Skeena — Skeena  3 9 tributaries were.  40 Q  But it is true that there were many company traplines  41 in the eastern part of the agency?  42 A  There were some.  43 MR. RUSH:  Okay.  I want to show you a copy of a letter.  It  44 appears to be a — a file copy of a letter of Mr.  45 Mallinson dated August the 8th, 1941, to Mr. D.M.  46 MacKay, Indian Commissioner for British Columbia.  47 MS. KOENIGSBERG:  What's the date? 146  J.V.   Boys   (for  Defendant)  Cross-exam by  Mr.   Rush  1          MR.   RUSH:  2  Q  3  4  A  5  Q  6  7  8  A  9  Q  10  A  11  12  Q  13  14  A  15  Q  16  A  17  18  Q  19  A  20  Q  21  22  23  24  25  A  26  Q  21  A  28  Q  29  30  31  32  33  A  34  Q  35  A  36  Q  37  A  38  Q  39  40  41  42  A  43  44  Q  45  A  46  Q  47  August   the  8th,   1941.     And  it  is  from your  file,   A.G.  of  Canada   file  10 819.     I'll   just  show you  that.  Um hum.  Mr.   Boys,   can you   identify  this  photocopy  of  a  letter  apparently written by  Mr.   Mallinson as  a  letter which  was  in your  file in  the Babine  Agency?  No,   I  can't.     I  couldn't  identify  that.  All   right.  You'll notice that this was dated five years before I  arrived at the agency.  Yes, I do notice that, but I'm asking you if you  recollect this letter —  No.  — as having been in your file.  No, I don't.  As a matter of fact, the files were not  very well organized when I got there.  All right.  Sorry.  A letter which is in apparent response to this letter  of August the 8th, 1941, was penned by Mr. D.M.  MacKay, Indian Commissioner for B.C., and this is  dated August 14th, 1941.  And I'd like to direct your  attention to that letter, if you will, please.  Yes.  You recognize Mr. MacKay's signature?  I do, yes.  And in terms of Mr. MacKay's statement of the  provisions of the B.C. Game Act in paragraph 1 of this  letter, does it accord with your own understanding as  at the time you were the Indian Agent in the Babine  Agency?  Yes.  And similarly, with Section 26?  Yes.  Paragraph 2.  Yes.  All right.  And in terms of the — of your knowledge  of this letter, Mr. Boys, was this a letter about  which you had an understanding when you were the —  the Indian Agent in the Babine Agency?  It sets out -- it sets out the — the policy that I  would expect to follow.  And did follow?  And did follow when I was there, yes.  All right.  Mr. Coleman, in the period of time that  you were not the Indian Agent, that is the period of 147  J.V. Boys (for Defendant)  Cross-exam by Mr. Rush  1 time that you had resigned, addressed a letter to Mr.  2 Vinson, V-i-n-s-o-n, whom you knew to be the game  3 warden; is that right?  4 A  Yeah, he was the game warden I think in Smithers.  5 Q  Smithers?  6 A  Yes.  7 Q  And in this letter dated January 1st, 1947, he  8 apparently passed on this letter of August the 14th,  9 1941, of Mr. MacKay's to Mr. Vinson?  10 A  Yeah.  11 Q       And  I  wonder   if  you  had  knowledge  of   that?     Your  12 counsel  has   placed  that  in  front  of  you.  13 A       Yeah,   I   think  I've  read  it before.     But  —  14 Q       This  is  —  you   read  it  in  the  course  of  your  duties  as  15 the  Indian  Agent,   is  that   so?  16 A       No,   I  don't  recollect  that  I  read  it  at  that  time,   but  17 I  may have.     I  couldn't  swear  to  that  at  the moment.  18 Q       Nonetheless,   Mr.   Boys,   it would  have been  in accord  19 with   the  functions  of  the  agency  to  pass   such  policy  20 along  to  the  game department?  21 A       Oh,   yeah,   um hum.  22 MR. RUSH:  Well, I'm going to ask firstly that the letter of Mr.  23 MacKay, dated August 14, '41, to Mr. Mallinson be  24 marked as an exhibit.  25 MS. KOENIGSBERG:  I have no objections to any of these documents  26 being marked, as I would say they are admissible in  27 any event as business records.  28 THE WITNESS:  Is this the copy you want?  29 MR. RUSH:  Yes.  30  31 (EXHIBIT 48 - Letter dated August 14, 1941, from Mr. MacKay to  32 Mr. Mallinson, two pages)  33  3 4 MR. RUSH:  And I'm going to ask that the letter of — the file  3 5 copy of the letter of Mallinson to D.M. MacKay of  36 August 8th, '41, be the next exhibit.  37  3 8 (EXHIBIT 49 - Letter dated August 8, 1941, from Mr. Mallinson to  3 9 Mr. MacKay, one page)  40  41 MR. RUSH:  Thank you.  And the letter, again a file copy, over  42 the name of James Coleman to Vinson, V-i-n-s-o-n,  43 January 1st, 1947, to be the next one.  44  45 (EXHIBIT 50 - Letter dated January 1, 1947, to Mr. Vinson from  46 Mr. Coleman)  47 148  J.V. Boys (for Defendant)  Cross-exam by Mr. Rush  1  1  MR. RUSH:  2  Q  3  4  A  5  Q  6  7  A  8  9  10  Q  11  12  13  14  15  A  16  Q  17  18  19  A  20  Q  21  22  A  23  Q  24  25  26  27  A  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  Q  36  A  37  Q  38  A  39  40  Q  41  42  43  44  A  45  46  47  Mr. Boys, in reference to the letter of Mr. MacKay's,  which is Exhibit 48 —  Um hum.  — it is the case that Mr. Mallinson did not follow  these policy guidelines, to your knowledge?  Well, he may have to some extent, but certainly there  was a lot left undone when I succeeded Mr. Mallinson  in the agency.  And in terms of what was left undone, what you meant  by or meon by that, or perhaps meant at the time, was  that the property of deceased Indian people had not  been transferred in accordance with the provisions of  the Indian Act?  Right.  Did you  also  mean by  that   statement  that  trapline  property had  not been  transferred in accordance with  the Game Act?  Right,   um hum.  And  that's   the  state  of  affairs  as you  found  it   in   '46  and   '47,  when you were  in   the  Babine Agency?  Yes,   broadly  speaking  that was  it.  It was your  understanding   that  throughout  the  period  of   time of  your  tenure as  the  Indian  Agent  that  the  Indian  people   sought  to  transfer   their  rights  or  title  in  traplines by  means  of   their  crest   system?  No,   not by  any means   universally.     A great many  of  them wanted  them transferred  to —  to the  immediate  family.     There was a  conflict between — well,  mainly  between  a  number  of   the  older  people,   who  advocated  the  continued  use  of   the  crest   system,   and   the younger  members  of   the  Indian  society,   who preferred  the  descent  of   property  to  the  family.     We got a  great  deal   of   support   for   that.  Was Mr.   Joe  Starr a young  person  in your mind?  I  remember   the  name.  Do you  remember  Alexander  White?  Well,   I  remember  these  names,  but  I'm afraid  I  can't —  I  can't  recollect  the individuals.  These  are — what you've  just  said involves  an  impression  that you have as a general   impression as  opposed  to what you  can  state by way  of  specific  reference?  That's  right.     I  can't give you  specific  instances,  but  I know   that we were kept very busy  registering  traplines  in  the name  of   individuals,   traplines  that  had been  embraced previously in —  in band   traplines. 149  J.V. Boys (for Defendant)  Cross-exam by Mr. Rush  1 In the case of the Kitwancool Band, for instance, they  2 had a band trapline, not a crest line, but a band  3 trapline.  And there were company traplines.  And what  4 a number of — a large number of individuals were  5 seeking was to have traplines registered in their  6 individual names or in the names of themselves or  7 their brothers in partnership sometimes when their  8 father had died and left a trapline.  Instead of  9 breaking it down into two traplines, they would prefer  10 to have it as held jointly between them.  11 Q  You're not saying though, are you, Mr. Boys, that  12 there weren't a large number of Gitksan and Carrier  13 people who sought to transfer their lines to the crest  14 members?  15 A  Well, the Carrier people didn't.  16 Q  Well, let's talk about Gitksan.  17 A  Yeah.  There were certainly some who continued to want  18 to -- wish to have them registered to their successors  19 in the crest, and it was explained to them that on the  20 death of a deceased that the provisions of the Indian  21 Act applied.  22 Q  Well, certainly there was and has been exhibited here  23 a good deal of correspondence which you received, to  24 which you replied saying that the Indian Act  25 provisions would apply to the registration —  26 A  Um hum.  27 Q  — of such property?  28 A  Um hum.  29 MR.   RUSH:     That  led   --  30 MS.   KOENIGSBERG:     Sorry.     You  should  say yes  —  31 THE WITNESS:      Yes.  32 MS.   KOENIGSBERG:      —   or   no.  33 THE WITNESS:      Sorry.  3 4 MR.   RUSH:  3 5 Q       Mr.   Boys,   just  let  me refer you back  to  Exhibit  36 number  — whatever   that  is  — 1.  37 A       Yes.  3 8 Q  And I would like, if you will, to look at the second  3 9 sentence in paragraph 2, and I'm quoting.  40  41 "In a great many  cases no attempt  has  been  42 made  to  re-register a   trapline  upon  the  43 death  of   the  registered holder  so  that  large  44 tracts  of  country remain open at  the present  45 time."  46  47 A       Um hum. 150  J.V. Boys (for Defendant)  Cross-exam by Mr. Rush  1 Q  Do you see that?  2 A  Yeah.  3 Q  The statement that you say there, "large tracts of  4 country remain open," you meant to say, or am I  5 correct in suggesting you meant to say were  6 unregistered?  7 A   Right, um hum.  8 Q  That in your mind country that was open was  9 unregistered?  10 A  Right.  11 Q  And these areas you understood, did you not, to be  12 areas held by Indian people, as you call it, from time  13 immemorial?  14 A       Well,   if   they  were  unregistered,   I wasn't  aware  that  15 they were held  by  anybody.  16 Q       All  right.  17 A       We had  — we had  these  maps we were guided by.     The  18 only  reference  that we had was  these particular maps,  19 and  there were  areas  that were void of  any   entry,   and  20 there was  no —  nobody  registered on  those areas.  21 That was  the  point.  22 Q       That's  right.     And  those  unregistered  areas,   you  23 understood  them  to be hereditary  areas?  24 A       Well,   I  —   I'm not   sure  that  they were  —   that  they  25 were  anything  in  particular.  26 Q       Well,   Mr.   Boys,   if you'll  — yes,   go ahead.  27 A       That's  the  point,   that  so  far as  —  so  far  as  28 traplines were  concerned,   that  they  might  be   sought by  29 some non-Indian  to  the  exclusion  of  an  Indian,   and  I  30 felt  that  the  Indians  should  be  entitled  to  the   first  31 use  for   trapping  of  those  unregistered areas.  32 Q       Because  they had been  the  Indians'   land   since  time  33 immemorial?  3 4 A       Well,   I'm not  —   I'm not  aware  of  that.  35 Q       Well,   Mr.   Boys,   if  you'll   just  look  at  page 2   of   the  36 letter,   and  here you're dealing with  the  enfranchise-  37 ment  issue,   and  in  the middle paragraph where you  say  3 8 in part:  39  40 "Again, upon enfranchisement, a former Indian  41 takes with him, to be disposed of as he  42 wishes, a trapline which from time  43 immemorial has been the means of livelihood  4 4 of a group of Indians as a whole."  45  46 A  Um hum.  47 Q  So you clearly believed at the time of the writing of 151  J.V.   Boys   (for  Defendant)  Cross-exam by  Mr.   Rush  1  2  3  A  4  5  6  7  8  Q  9  10  A  11  Q  12  13  14  A  15  16  17  Q  18  A  19  20  Q  21  22  23  24  25  A  26  Q  27  28  29  30  A  31  Q  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  A  47  Q  this letter  on June 6th  of  1947   that  that was  the  case?  That this area which was registered to an Indian had  been used by him and his family for many, many years,  and he had taken the trouble to register it, and then  if he went — if he became enfranchised, he was going  to lose it.  All   right.     We'll  deal  with  the  —  this  particular  passage  deals with a  registered  area?  Um hum.  But   it  certainly  was  your  belief   at  this  time  that  those  registered  areas were areas held by groups  of  Indians   since  —   from time  immemorial?  Yes,   the  areas   that  they had  in  their  name,   but   there  were  also  other   areas  that  didn't  show  any  occupancy  at  all.  Correct.  Those were the areas that I was worried about.  I felt  that they should be registered to Indians.  And I suggest to you that the reason for that was that  those unregistered areas or open areas, as you  understood them, that those too were areas that needed  protection because they were hereditary areas held by  groups of Indians?  Well, they may have been.  Well, I just direct your attention, Mr. Boys, to  Exhibit 7, which should be in the list of letters  there, which is a letter from you to the game  warden —  Um hum.  — in Smithers on October the 3rd, 1947.  And I direct  your attention to the fourth full paragraph, where you  say :  "Wide areas of hereditary Indian traplines  are still unregistered in this Agency and  because I realize the danger of permanent  loss to the Indians if such traplines are  not registered at an early date I propose to  submit applications in the name of the  Indian Affairs Branch for a group or groups  of Indians pending clarification of their  individual disputes through non-  administration of estates in past years."  Um hum.  Well,   it  certainly was your mind  in October 3rd,   1947, 152  J.V.   Boys   (for  Defendant;  Cross-exam by  Mr.   Rush  1 that  those  open  areas  or   the  unregistered ones were  2 areas  of  hereditary  Indian  traplines;   do you agree  3 with that?  4 A  There were a lot of areas that were marked down as  5 belonging to crests or groups that had not been  6 properly registered to individuals, and it was my  7 intent to register them so that they were — so that  8 they were held by the individual Indians, and those  9 certainly were hereditary areas.  10 Q  And you understood by —  11 A  But it didn't cover all of the territory that — that  12 was my responsibility in the agency.  There were other  13 areas that were not covered by anything according to  14 the — to the maps.  15 Q  According to the maps?  16 A  Yeah.  17 Q       That  is  to  say,   that  on  the maps  there hadn't been  any  18 names  ascribed  to a  particular geographic  area?  19 A       Right.  20 Q       As  yet?  21 A  Nobody had — nobody had approached me to make any  22 claim to them.  23 Q  Right.  As at the time that you were there?  24 A  That's right.  25 Q  All right.  26 A   Yeah.  27 Q  But my — my point at this juncture, Mr. Boys, is to  28 simply ask you to agree with me, and I think you have,  29 that those wide areas of open or unregistered  30 territory you thought to be hereditary Indian  31 traplines?  32 A  Certainly those that were covered by the — by the  33 crest system and so on, yes, I thought that that was  34 hereditary Indian trapline area.  35 MR. RUSH:  Um hum.  36 MS.   KOENIGSBERG:     I  wonder   if   this would be a  convenient  time  to  37 break  for lunch?  3 8   MR. RUSH:  Okay.  Just a second.  39 MS. KOENIGSBERG:  Or if you have a particular area to finish, I  40 think we could do that.  41 MR. RUSH:  42 Q  Just in respect of the questions I've asked you about,  43 Mr. Boys, I want to direct your attention as well,  44 just before we take our luncheon break, to the letter  45 from you to the game warden in Smithers dated November  46 the 3rd, 1947.  It's Exhibit 8.  47 A   Um hum. 153  J.V. Boys (for Defendant)  Cross-exam by Mr. Rush  1 Q  And it's the latter part of this letter that I'm  2 directing your attention to at the moment, beginning  3 with the phrase:  4  5 "As soon as these maps return we will check  6 the list against the maps and submit an  7 additional list if necessary;"  8  9 and continuing the quote,  10  11 "also a note of any hereditary Indian  12 traplines which are unregistered at the  13 present time pending a decision as to  14 ownership."  15  16 A   Yes.  17 MR.   RUSH:     Okay.     Again,   I'm simply  directing your  attention  to  18 what your  perception was  in November  of  1947,   that  the  19 areas  that were  unregistered you  considered  to be  20 hereditary  Indian   traplines,   and   I  think you have  21 agreed with  me  on  that.  22 MS.   KOENIGSBERG:     Well,   I  don't  -- don't  ~  I  think you've  gone  23 just  a  little  further  than  I  had  understood his  24 evidence  to be in  the  phrasing  of  your question.  25 MR. RUSH:  26 Q  Well, the witness can —  27 A  I think the scenario is this, that when I arrived at  2 8 the agency and got into the matter of traplines, I had  29 some knowledge of traplines already from my experience  3 0 in the area north of this, and I looked at these  31 trapping maps, and there were — there were three  32 different categories.  There were some registered  33 traplines in the names of individuals.  There were  3 4 some areas that were — that were simply put down as  3 5 or simply labelled Eagle Crest or some other crest or  36 company, and this was an area that was broadly  37 outlined with no individual names in it.  And then  3 8 there was another area that had nothing on it  3 9 whatsoever.  And so the point is that there are the  40 three different categories:  the — the registered  41 ones that I didn't necessarily have to worry about  42 unless the registered owner died, and then it — and  43 then it would be necessary to re-register it in the  44 name of the heirs; the company traplines or the crest  45 traplines, where if somebody who had some right within  46 the crest trapline died, then it -- the area should  47 be, according to my instructions, broken down, and the 154  J.V. Boys (for Defendant)  Cross-exam by Mr. Rush  1 heirs should be registered on that portion of it; and  2 then there was this other area that didn't have any  3 label on it whatsoever, and that was my concern.  4 Well, that was one of my concerns, that that area  5 should — if we can beat the non-Indians to it, that  6 we should get that registered in the name of Indians  7 for their benefit.  8 Q  And what I suggest to you, Mr. Boys, is that you  9 considered that in each one of those three areas that  10 the traplines, whether registered, unregistered or  11 whether there was no designation on a map, you  12 considered to be hereditary chief — hereditary  13 traplines under the crest system?  14 A  There wasn't any traplines on the unregistered area,  15 so — you know — I can't testify that I felt that  16 that was hereditary territory, but that with — with  17 more modern means of communication that people could  18 reach this more distant area and that perhaps they  19 would like to register it and make use of it as a  20 trapping  area.  21 Q       Well,   you're  not   saying,   Mr.   Boys,   that  you  —  that  22 nobody was   up  there,   are you?  23 A       Well,   to  the best   of  my  knowledge,   nobody  was  there.  24 Q       Well,  you didn't  know  one way  or  the  other,   did you?  25 A       No,   I  don't.  26 Q       I  mean,   all  you  saw  on a map was  that  there wasn't a  27 name attached  to an  area?  28 A       No,   that's  all   I  knew  about  it,   certainly.  29 Q       Right.     So your knowledge about whether  or  not  3 0 somebody was  actually  on  the ground  there was  not  31 indicated  one way  or   the  other  —  32 A       No.  33 Q       — by  the map?  34 A       No,   it wasn't.  3 5 Q       Leaving   those  areas  —  36 A       But  it was not  registered as  a  trapline,   and  37 therefore,   according  to  the game department,   it  might  3 8                              be available  for  registration by a non-Indian.  39 Q      Well,   isn't  it  the case,   Mr.   Boys,   that  there were  40 company names  on  the maps   that were also not  41 registered?  42 A       Yes.  43 Q       And  there was  —  44 A       You  can make a pretty  fair case  for —  for  claiming  45 that for   the benefit  of  the  Indians who  constituted  46 that  company  and having  it  registered  in their  names.  47 That  I wasn't  so worried about,   but I was worried 155  J.V.   Boys   (for  Defendant)  Cross-exam by  Mr.   Rush  1  2  3  Q  4  5  A  6  7  Q  8  9  A  10  Q  11  12  13  A  14  Q  15  16  A  17  MR. RUSH:  18  19  20  21  22  MR. RUSH:  23  Q  24  25  26  27  28  29  A  30  Q  31  32  33  34  35  A  36  Q  37  A  38  Q  39  40  41  A  42  Q  43  A  44  Q  45  A  46  47  about  — particularly  about  the areas  that were wide  open.  You mean by  wide  open  no name  attached  to  the  space  on  the map?  Well,   and  in  the records  of  the  —  of   the game  department.  Because,   I   suggest   to you,   Mr.   Boys,   the  registration  system hadn't  reached  those  areas?  Well,   for  whatever  reason.  But  the areas  in which  there were names  designated  on  the maps  —   and  that's  all  you had  to go by,   isn't  that  right?  Yes.  —  those  areas  you  considered to be  areas  that were  hereditary   trapping  grounds?  Yes.  I  think we can  take  our break now.  (PROCEEDINGS   ADJOURNED  AT   12:22   P.M.)  (PROCEEDINGS   RECONVENED   AT   2:00   P.M.)  I  want   to bring  us  back  to  the question  of   trapline  policy  as  a  matter  of  your  consideration as   the  Indian  Agent  between   '46   and   '51,   and as  I  understand  it,   it  was   the  policy  of   the  Indian  Affairs  Branch  in your  period  of   tenure   to  protect  the  trapping  rights  of  Indian  people  off   reserve on  the hereditary  lands?  Yes.  And it was also the case that the principle, if I can  put it this way, that you followed was to keep Indian  people attached to the land, to encourage an  attachment to the land on the part of the people in  the agency?  Well, you mean for trapping.  Yes.  Yes.  Yes.  Okay.  And in that sense the — if I can put it this  way, this principle included the protection of  Indian — Indian rights off of the reserve?  Yes.  In the form of trapping rights in this case?  Yeah.  Okay.  We would apply for any land anywhere that we felt was  vacant that could be registered in the name of an  Indian. 156  J.V. Boys (for Defendant)  Cross-exam by Mr. Rush  1 Q  And if I can put it this way, this was seen as a value  2 to you in the department?  3 A  No, it was seen primarily as a value to the Indians.  4 Q  Okay.  5 A  You know, I was not only guided by a set of regula-  6 tions set out by the department, some of which were  7 formulated in Ottawa by people who probably had  8 absolutely no conception of what a trapline or maybe  9 not what a mountain even looked like, but I conceived  10 it as a philosophy that I was there to do everything I  11 could for the — for the benefit of the Indians in my  12 jurisdiction.  And one of those benefits, I felt, was  13 to try to apply for any vacant land, whether or not it  14 was hereditary land, land that they had used for —  15 for years in the past, or whether it was an area that  16 was entirely new to them.  If I could get a Indian's  17 name on it, I would, provided that they were anxious  18 or willing or wanting to go into that area and trap  19 it.  20 Q       I  take  it  from what you've  just   said that your  21 implementation  of   the policy  of   the  Indian  Affairs  22 Branch was   subject  to your   interpretation  of   the  needs  23 of   the local   people?  24 A       Yes.  25 Q       Would  it be   fair   to  say  then   that you would make   some  26 informal  adjustments  in  the application  of  your  27 policies?  28 A  You mean adjustments in the policies as set out by the  29 department?  30 Q  No.  We know that there was the formal policy.  But —  31 A  Yeah.  3 2 Q  — sometimes things on the ground happen in a very  33 different way.  3 4 A  Yeah.  3 5 Q  You will agree with that?  36 A  Yes.  37 Q  And I'm wondering whether or not, recognizing that  3 8 things may well be different on the ground, that you  3 9 would apply a policy in a way that would take into  40 account local conditions and local considerations?  41 A  Yeah, I would do whatever seemed most beneficial to  42 the Indian and most expedient in the circumstances.  43 Q  I'm really trying to get at what I think you agree  44 with me on, and that is that you wouldn't have an  45 intransigent or an inflexible attitude towards the  46 application of policy?  47 A  No. 157  J.V. Boys (for Defendant)  Cross-exam by Mr. Rush  1  Q  2  3  4  A  5  Q  6  7  8  9  A  10  11  12  13  Q  14  15  16  17  A  18  Q  19  A  20  21  22  23  Q  24  25  26  27  A  28  29  30  31  Q  32  A  33  Q  34  A  35  36  Q  37  38  A  39  Q  40  41  42  A  43  Q  44  45  46  47  A  Okay.  Now, there were, I think you've said, disputes  among Indian trappers as to who was entitled to trap  on certain trapping grounds?  Yes.  This was -- and is it fair to say that some of these  disputes arose because of the application of the  policy to require the devolution of property in an  estate in accordance with the rules of the Indian Act?  Yes, some of the older Indians, as I stated  previously, were not happy.  They preferred the — the  crest system rather than the — rather than the  devolution of property as required by law.  Yes.  Well, there is under Exhibit number 9 — and if  it's in front of you, it's a letter that you sent to  Mr. Ray Morgan dated November the 10th, 1947.  Now,  just on this, did you know Ray Morgan?  Yes, I knew the Morgan family at Kitwanga.  Did you know Ray?  Oh, well, I'm sorry, but I can't positively state I --  you know — I must have — I must have known him at  the time, but I couldn't — certainly can't recall  exactly which member of a family was Ray.  Would it help to refresh your memory if I told you  that Ray was a man who had fought with the armoured  division of the Canadian Armoured Corps in Italy and  was wounded?  I remember — remember that one of them was a returned  serviceman, and I think one of the family went down  and went to a -- went to a Catholic seminary in New  Westminster.  But do you —  If I remember rightly.  But you remember —  I  remember — yeah,   I  remember members.     And  I  think  the  father's name was  —  I'm not  sure —   Henry.  I'm not   sure  either.     But you  remember  one  of   the  Morgans being a  returned  serviceman?  Yeah,   um hum.  And if I told you that it was Ray Morgan, would you —  you would agree with me that that person we.s a young  man?  Yeah.  And at least so far as this letter goes, you were  responding to a concern by a young man that the crest  system be employed in terms of the devolution of  property?  That  —   that's  the general   import  of  this —  of   this 158  J.V. Boys (for Defendant)  Cross-exam by Mr. Rush  1 letter.  2 MR.   RUSH:     All  right.     Have you  seen  the letter  of  November  the  3 6th,  which was apparently  the reason for  the response  4 of  this letter  of  November  the 10th?  5 MS.   KOENIGSBERG:     We don't have  that  letter.     We have looked  for  6 it,   and we  don't have  it.  7 MR. RUSH:  8 Q  You have looked for and you have been unable to find  9 it.  All right.  Do you recall the letter that Mr.  10 Morgan, Mr. Ray Morgan, sent you?  11 A  No, I don't.  12 Q  All right.  Now, the proposal that you made, Mr. Boys,  13 to register the traplines in the name of the Indian  14 Affairs Branch —  15 A  Um hum.  16 Q  — on behalf of groups of Indians pending resolutions  17 of disputes met with a firm rejection by Mr. Gill?  18 A  Yeah.  19 Q  And would you agree with me that so far as the game  20 department's view of these things went, that the  21 letter to you of October the 27th, 1947, which is  22 Exhibit 6, from Mr. Gill, sets out the policy of the  23 B.C. Game Department so far as you understood it?  24 A  Yes, that — I think that summarizes what — one of  25 the stipulations of the Game Act at the time.  26 Q  And that wasn't very satisfactory from your  27 standpoint?  28 A  Well, it would have been — it would have been more  29 satisfactory to me as a temporary expedient if I could  3 0 have registered some of those vacant areas in the name  31 of the Indian Affairs Branch in trust until we could  32 have the whole matter sorted out, because that would  33 insure that those areas could not be applied for and  3 4 assigned to non-Indians.  35 Q  Right.  Despite Mr. Gill's response to you, you didn't  36 give up on your efforts to try and convince him  37 otherwise?  3 8 A  Oh, I don't recollect just how it went from there.  3 9 I —  40 Q  Let me try to help you.  41 A  Okay.  42 Q  If you look at tab number 9 or — I'm sorry, tab 9 in  43 my book — Exhibit 8, letter of Mr. Boys to the game  44 warden in Smithers.  45 A  Yeah.  46 Q  Now, here, Mr. Boys, as I read this letter, and I'd  47 like you to just review it, in the middle of the 159  J.V. Boys (for Defendant)  Cross-exam by Mr. Rush  1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  A  9  Q  10  11  12  13  A  14  Q  15  16  17  A  18  Q  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  A  28  Q  29  30  A  31  Q  32  33  34  35  A  36  Q  37  38  39  40  A  41  Q  42  43  44  45  46  A  47  Q  letter you said, and I'm quoting in part:  "...for this reason I would ask on behalf of  the Indians of the agency considerable  tolerance before cancellation of any  traplines which may have been omitted."  Um hum.  And it seems to me there that you're making an  informal request of the game department not to move  against any traplines which might be unregistered and  come to their attention?  Right.  Now, Mr. Gill writes back to you in the next piece of  correspondence, which is Exhibit 13, and it's a letter  of November the 17th, 1947?  Oh, yeah, um hum.  Now, he -- he's dealing with again, principally, in  this letter, the enfranchisement of Indians, but in  the fourth paragraph — excuse me — the third  paragraph he says:  "Forms of cancellation returned herewith.  Please have the wording, 'In favour of the  Indian Affairs Branch' deleted."  Um hum.  So he's —  he's  maintaining his position  that he  has  previously  enunciated?  Um hum.  All right.  The letter that I want to direct your  attention to next then is the letter which is dated  November the 20th, 1947, and it's from yourself to Mr.  Gill?  What  exhibit  is  that?  That's Exhibit   43.     It was  entered this morning by  Mr.  Mackenzie.     Now,   if  you'd just  peruse  that  for  a  moment,   it  is  an apparent response by you to  the  previous  letter   from Mr.   Gill dated November  the  17th.  Um hum.  Now, you say two things here. Firstly, you  acknowledge the position taken by the B.C. Game Branch  that they will not accept a cancellation in favour of  the Indian Affairs Branch.  You see that in the first  paragraph?  Um hum.  And then the beginning of the second paragraph, and I 160  J.V. Boys (for Defendant)  Cross-exam by Mr. Rush  1 quote:  2 "This will leave further areas of Indian  3 trapping grounds unregistered for the time  4 being, but I trust that the Indian title to  5 it may be protected by your branch."  6  7 A  Um hum.  8 Q  Now, is it not the case that after this letter of  9 November the 20th, 1947, that the game department, in  10 your experience, did not take any steps to register  11 unregistered Indian trapping grounds in non-Indian  12 hands?  13 A  No, they were very co-operative with us.  14 Q  That's what I understood from this letter, that in  15 fact despite the formal policy which they enunciated  16 in Gill's earlier letter —  17 A  Um hum.  18 Q  — that they were prepared to co-operate with — with  19 you —  20 A  Um hum.  21 Q  — to insure that Indian trapping grounds which were  22 unregistered were not registered in the name of non-  23            Indian people?  24 A  That's right.  25 Q  And that was the situation that persisted up until the  26 time that you left?  27 A  Yeah.  At the time I left we had succeeded in — in  28 registering large parts of the areas that had been  29 covered by Indian crest coverage and band coverage,  30 and we had been successful in breaking down a whole  31 lot of that and getting registrations.  32 Q  By that you mean more of the areas identified with  33 crests, as you've said —  3 4 A  Yeah.  35 Q  — were registered under the Game Act?  36 A  Yes, in the names of individuals.  37 Q  And companies?  38 A  And companies, yes.  3 9 Q  Now, as I understand this letter, at least the reason  40 that you make the pitch, if I can frame it that way,  41 to Mr. Gill is because at this point in time, namely  42 on November the 20th, 1947, you no longer had the  43 linen trapline maps in your possession?  44 A  No.  45 Q  Because they had been sent for correction, you'd  46 hoped?  47 A  Yeah. 161  J.V. Boys (for Defendant)  Cross-exam by Mr. Rush  1 Q  So it wouldn't have been possible for you to easily  2 determine those areas that were unregistered?  3 A  No.  In the latter — after my maps left, I could  4 resort either to going down and consulting maps in the  5 office of the provincial policemen in Hazelton or,  6 alternatively, going to Smithers and consulting maps  7 in the office of the game warden, which I did.  8 Q  Both of those were a much more difficult and time-  9 consuming activity than if you'd had the maps at your  10 own office?  11 A  Yes.  12 Q  I take it that it wasn't an easy thing just to run  13 down to Smithers, as it might be today?  14 A  No.  Although, you know, I was — I was through  15 Smithers in order to reach some of the Indians,  16 particularly the Babine Indians, fairly frequently.  17 Q  But — I'm going to come to this in a moment, but as I  18 understand it, there were frailties both in the series  19 of maps held by the B.C. Police officers and frailties  20 in the maps that were held by the game department in  21 Smithers?  22 A      Well,   I don't know  of  any.     I wouldn't know  of  any  23 errors,   if   there were any,   in  the maps held  at  the  24 game branch  in Smithers.  25 Q       Well,   I  only  say   this because  —  26 A      Only  that  they were  incompatible with  ours,   but  that's  27 because we hadn't purchased up-to-date maps,  and  I  28 didn't realize until  later  on the  extent  of  this  29 problem,   that  they had been getting more  up-to-date  3 0 maps as  they were published and we  just hadn't.  31 Q      But your maps had  to go  eventually  to Prince George in  32 order  to —  33 A  Well, that was where I sent them, but the response  3 4 from Prince George was that until you get new maps, we  3 5 can't make yours conform with ours.  And the new maps  36 had not arrived when I left Hazelton.  37 Q  Right.  Now, what I want to understand though is were  38 the editions used by the Smithers office, to your  3 9 knowledge, the same as the ones that you were using or  40 were they a different edition that was more up to  41 date.  42 A  No, all of the game branches maps were up to date  43 because they were a provincial branch, and they were  44 supplied by the provincial geographer as a matter of  45 course, whereas we were a federal department, and we  46 had to make application for them and purchase those  47 maps.  We hadn't been in the habit of doing so 162  J.V. Boys (for Defendant)  Cross-exam by Mr. Rush  1  2  Q  3  4  A  5  Q  6  7  8  9  10  A  11  Q  12  13  A  14  Q  15  16  17  A  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  Q  26  27  A  28  Q  29  30  A  31  Q  32  33  A  34  35  36  37  Q  38  39  40  41  A  42  43  44  45  Q  46  A  47  Q  apparently.  Certainly not in the habit of doing so up until the  time that you left?  No.  Well, just let me talk about the linen trapline maps  with you for a moment.  The linen trapline maps,  you've told us the ones that you held were important  to you because they demonstrated the area covered by  the registered traplines?  Um hum.  And these maps depicted the boundaries of existing  registered traplines, however deficient they might be?  Yeah.  And I take it from your evidence that they were  considerably deficient in terms of their conformity  with —  Well,   they were not  inaccurate.     The problem was  that  our maps were  of a  scale  of — well,   they were  of  a  different  scale  to the ones  that —  the later  editions  that were in  the game department  offices,   so  if  I  sent  in a  tracing  from my map,   it doesn't conform with  the  maps  in the game branch office.     And  that was  the  problem,   in  translating  exactly  from —  from my  scale  to a different  scale.  Well,   wasn't  it also  the  case  that  there was more  detail  on  the later maps?  Yes.  And by detail I mean more topographical information  that would help you locate yourself on the ground?  Yes.  And that was a deficiency in the set of maps that you  had?  That's correct, yes.  As a matter of fact, there was a  deficiency in all those maps up until the — you  know — the programme of photogrammetry after the  second war.  Well,   by   "all   those maps"  do you mean to  include  the  maps  that were a more  up-to-date version of  the  ones  that you held  in the Babine Agency  that were held  in  the Smithers  office?  Well,   there was not a really detailed set  of  maps  anywhere of  the northern half of British Columbia  until   the  programme of  aerial photography was  completed  sometime after  the  second war.  Well,   it must  have been after you left —  Oh,  yeah.  —  Hazelton? 163  J.V. Boys (for Defendant)  Cross-exam by Mr. Rush  1 A       It was.     Oh,   yes,   it was.  2 Q       I  think  that was  in  the mid to late  50's,  wasn't  it?  3 A       No.     I   think  they  embarked on  it.     It took  some years  4 to do  the whole — cover  the whole  thing.  5 Q  Yeah.  6 A  They embarked on it sometime in the 19 — early —  7 well, maybe the late 19 40's or early 50's.  They used  8 war surplus aircraft and war surplus air crew to do  9 the job but —  10 Q  They didn't commission you into that service with your  11 knowledge of navigation?  12 A  No, no, I -- I didn't get in on that.  13 Q  Do I understand then, Mr. Boys, that following this  14 letter, which is Exhibit 43, of November the 20th,  15 1947, that you wouldn't have sent any further tracings  16 into the game department after that date?  17 A  We would send in what we would apply for, but we  18 probably would not have got back confirmation until  19 our maps conformed.  We had some maps of the same  20 vintage as theirs, but the majority of our maps did  21 not conform to theirs.  22 Q  But I understand that your maps essentially were not  23 in your office after sometime in November of 1947?  24 A  Yeah, but if an Indian came in, if John Doe came into  25 the office and said, "I want to apply for my father's  26 trapline," which was on such and such a creek, I could  27 go down to the office of the — of the policeman or  28 Mr. Appleby could go down to the office of the  29 policeman, and we could identify the area and make  3 0 some sort of an application and send it into the game  31 branch.  They were aware of the difficulties that we  32 were experiencing.  33 Q I understand that. What I'm suggesting to you is that  3 4 you weren't sending in tracings any more?  3 5 A  Yeah, we were sending in tracings, but -- but they  36 they were not — they were not coming back as  37 confirmed by the game branch, but the game branch held  3 8 this thing in abeyance until we were on the same wave-  3 9            length, so to speak.  40 Q  All right.  I understand that.  I think we're  41 addressing two problems or two issues in my question.  42 I'm simply at this point trying to determine that  43 after you had sent your series of maps to first  44 Smithers, then Prince Rupert and then Prince George —  45 A  Um hum.  46 Q  — that you wouldn't have sent tracings.  It seems  47 logical to me.  You didn't have anything to trace 16 4  J.V. Boys (for Defendant)  Cross-exam by Mr. Rush  1 from, so you weren't sending tracings into the game  2 department unless you took a tracing from some other  3 map?  4 A  Yeah, but I did.  You see, that's what I'm trying to  5 convey to you, that if we did — since we didn't have  6 any maps in our own office, an application had to be  7 accompanied by a tracing of the area, and the only  8 available map from which to make a tracing would be  9 either in the office in Smithers, the game warden's  10 office in Smithers, or down in the police office in  11 Hazelton.  Since that was much more readily available  12 to us, that was the one we more often used.  So there  13 would be some applications go in, but we wouldn't get  14 confirmation that the Indian was registered on those  15 lines, only that it would be held in abeyance pending  16 — pending the time when we would have it — when we  17 could have our own maps back and — and confirm that  18 it should be — that was the way it should be on our  19 own maps.  In other words, trace it back on to our own  20 maps.  21 Q       So the B.C.   Police maps were up-to-date  ones,  were  22 they?  23 A  They were the same edition as the — being a  24 provincial government department, they would have the  25 same edition of maps as — as the game warden.  26 Q  All right.  So you would be essentially tracing  27 existing registered lines as determined by the game  28 department?  29 A  Yeah, um hum.  3 0 Q  All right.  Now, I want to — I just want to show you  31 one of these maps, and I'm going to show you what is  32 Exhibit 17.  And it's Map 77.  And maybe if you could  33 sit down, Mr. Boys, I think I can show you what I need  3 4 to without too much disruption.  The part I want to  35 show to you is the area on this map marked as "Joseph  36 George and Company."  37 A  Um hum.  3 8 Q  Do you see that?  3 9 A  Yeah.  40 Q  And you'll also notice that there is another Joseph  41 George in the —  42 A  Um hum.  43 Q  — just to the north and east of that.  Now, above the  44 lettering "Joseph George and Company," there appear  45 the words "Old Joseph," and in parentheses,  46 "Nashlach."  Do you see that?  47 A  Yeah. 165  J.V. Boys (for Defendant)  Cross-exam by Mr. Rush  1  Q  2  3  A  4  Q  5  6  A  7  Q  8  9  10  A  11  Q  12  13  14  A  15  Q  16  A  17  Q  18  19  20  21  A  22  Q  23  A  24  Q  25  26  27  28  A  29  Q  30  A  31  32  Q  33  34  A  35  Q  36  37  38  39  A  40  Q  41  42  43  44  45  46  A  47  Now, I first want to ask you if you know — if you  knew Old Joseph Nashlach?  I — I can't recall.  I can't recall that now.  Okay.  Did you know him — did you know the name?  You  may not have known the person, but the name?  I don't know anybody who was designated as Old Joseph.  Okay.  Now, Joseph George and Company, this — does  that indicate to you that this is a group trapping  registration?  Yes.  All right.  And do you know this area to be an area  of -- where Carrier Indians trapped?  You can  reference yourself by Houston up in the upper —  Yeah, I can see that.  Yes, um hum.  Were you ever down to Owen Creek or Owen Lake?  No, no, I wasn't.  Okay.  All right.  Well, at least so far as Joseph  George goes and Company, you'll agree with me that if  this was a Carrier area, we have here at least one  Carrier group —  Um hum.  — registration; is that right?  Yeah.  Um hum.  And you'll notice up here in the upper right-hand  corner there seems to be, above north and east of  Houston, "David, Johnny and Co." Did you know Johnny  David?  Well,   I  can't recollect  the man I'm afraid.  Did you know  the name?  I  remember  that  David was a  surname of  some Indians  in  the area.  Did you remember it to be the name of a Carrier Indian  resident at Moricetown?  Not specifically, no.  Okay.  But similarly, again, if this — this is an  area, well, to the east of Hazelton and Hagwilget, you  will agree with me that this was an area where you  understood it to be that Carrier native people —  Yeah.  — trapped?  All right.  Now, I want to ask you as well, if  you'll look at the — the double penciled line, would  you agree that this appears to outline the trapping  area of Joseph George?  Now, it's hard to just  determine where this is.  I think this — anywhere around here, that that is the  George area and that is Lattie.  I know Dick Lattie. 166  J.V.   Boys  (for  Defendant)  Cross-exam by Mr.   Rush  2  MR. RUSH:  3  MS. KOENI  4  5  6  7  6  9  MR. RUSH:  10  Q  11  12  13  A  14  Q  15  16  A  17  Q  18  19  20  A  21  Q  22  23  24  25  A  26  Q  27  28  29  30  A  31  Q  32  33  34  A  35  Q  36  37  A  38  Q  39  40  A  41  Q  42  A  43  Q  44  45  A  46  Q  47  I do  recall  him.     This  is J.B Antoine,   A-n-t-o-i-n-e.  All   right.     Let's  —  5SBERG:     I  think we better attempt  to describe  for  the  record what has  just been pointed to.     Maybe we  can  just  go off  the  record  for  a moment.  (OFF THE RECORD DISCUSSION)  Okay.  There are a number of double orange lines  indicating trapline areas on this map, are there not,  Mr. Boys?  Yes, yes.  And at least one of them outlines the west and  northerly boundaries of an area of J.B Antoine?  Yeah.  And below that and apparently below the Morice River  there is an area known as Lattie, Dick or Dick Lattie  area.  You see that?  Um hum.  And  that's  —  that name appears  to be bounded by a  description  or a boundary of a  trapping  area.     By  the  way,   did you know  that  the Morice River was known as  Wedzenkwe?  No,   I  didn't.  Now, Joseph George and Company — there is also an  area, some of which is double lined, encircling or  maybe enclosing the name of Old Joseph Nashlach and  Joseph George and Company.  Do you see that?  Yes.  Now, what I want to ask you in particular about that  area is that the easterly boundary of the area that  encompasses Joseph George and Company —  Um hum.  Excuse me,   I  don't —  I want  to  correct that.     I  mean  the westerly and particularly  the  southwesterly —  Oh,   yeah.  — does not appear to follow any topographical  features.  Do you agree with that?  No.  You mean the westerly part of it?  Yes, the southwesterly portion there —  Um hum.  — does not appear to follow any topographical  features that you can see on the map?  No.  Would you agree with me that it would be difficult, if  not impossible, to describe to somebody what the 167  J.V. Boys (for Defendant)  Cross-exam by Mr. Rush  1 boundary was in that area?  2 A  Yes, it would be difficult all right.  3 Q  Certainly the ease of description of a boundary would  4 be assisted by the presence on a map of topographical  5 features?  6 A  Right.  7 Q  And you'll notice up here in the north portion of the  8 boundary enclosing the Joseph George trapping area  9 that there are similarly straight lines running to  10 what is described on the map as a triangulation  11 station at Morice Mountain?  12 A   Yeah.  13 Q  Now, the Morice Mountain there is clearly a reference  14 point that would be of assistance in describing —  15 A  Um hum.  16 Q  — this, right?  17 A  Yeah.  18 Q  But as you move east and south-east around this area,  19 it would be very difficult to determine the boundary  20 for — because of the absence of such topographical  21 features?  22 A  Right, um hum.  23 Q  You also see here, Mr. Boys, that there are certain  24 apparently hand-drawn topographical features, which  25 appear to my eye to be lakes and rivers?  26 A  Yes.  27 Q  Do you see that?  28 A  Yes.  29 Q      And  I  think  that you wouldn't — you were unable to  30 tell   us  just how any  of   these  came on  this  particular  31 map?  32 A  Yeah, I have no idea how they came on.  33 MS. KOENIGSBERG:  I think just to be sure the record is clear,  3 4 you referred to hand-drawn areas that appear to your  3 5 eye to be lakes and rivers, and there are — probably  36 everything on the map is hand drawn, and —  37 MR. RUSH:  Not everything.  3 8   MS. KOENIGSBERG:  — are you referring there to the, at least in  3 9 part, the string of what appear to be lakes beginning,  40 for instance, with the word with a circle with "Rat  41 Lake" within it?  42 THE WITNESS:  Yes, that's right.  43 MS. KOENIGSBERG:  Yes.  44 MR. RUSH:  45 Q  I'm here only referring to the hand drawing contained  46 within the area enclosing the Joseph George name where  47 the — 16 8  J.V. Boys (for Defendant)  Cross-exam by Mr. Rush  1  A  2  3  4  5  Q  6  A  7  Q  8  9  10  A  11  Q  12  A  13  14  Q  15  16  17  A  18  Q  19  20  21  22  23  A  24  25  26  27  Q  28  A  29  Q  30  31  32  A  33  34  35  36  37  38  Q  39  40  41  A  42  Q  43  44  45  46  47  As a speculation, it may be that whoever drew this was  trying to indicate that this string of lakes should  actually have been here.  I don't know, but you see  this shows —  Second Parrott Lake?  Oh, yes.  I don't know.  At least one possibility to whoever drew that might be  that the Parrott Lakes, as described there, are not in  the right place?  Yeah, that's — that's possible.  Although —  Yes.  — there was some surveying done at the head of the  lake apparently.  Okay.  Mr. Boys, will you agree with me along Owen  Creek there are a number of subsidiary creeks that are  unnamed on this map?  Yes.  Did you — did you know from these maps or is there  any way of determining from these maps what the date  of the edition of this map is, and I'm now only  referring you to the one that's in front of you, 77,  Exhibit 17?  I — it's initialled — it was customary to initial a  map when it was completed in the geographer's office  with someone in charge in the geographer's office, and  this is initialled as October the 11th, 1927.  And you're pointing to an initialling on the left?  The western end.  The western end of it or the left-hand side of the  scroll.  You would be unable to say with any certainty  if that represents the date of this though?  No, I can't say that it did, only that from having  visited the geographer's office in Victoria on a  number of occasions I know that it was policy or it  was customary in the department to initial a map as  having been examined by somebody in authority in the  geographer•s office.  Okay.  And, of course, you would be unable to say when  any of the writing or any of the line drawing on this  map was added to the base?  No.  Okay.  Thank you.  Now, Mr. Boys, you would agree with  me that not having been to the area that I've referred  you to on map 77, that you would be reliant on the  description of the area as depicted on the map in  terms of explaining or describing the area to somebody  else? 16 9  J.V. Boys (for Defendant)  Cross-exam by Mr. Rush  1  A  2  3  4  Q  5  A  6  7  6  9  10  11  12  13  14  Q  15  A  16  Q  17  18  19  A  20  Q  21  A  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  Q  30  31  A  32  Q  33  34  35  36  A  37  Q  38  39  40  41  A  42  Q  43  44  45  A  46  Q  47  A  Yeah.  Actually, in making an application we were  required to formulate some description of the area  that we were applying for.  If there wasn't one already in existence?  Yeah.  If it was not a transfer.  I mean, if it was a  new area that was being applied for.  And this, as you  suggest, sometimes could only be done by straight  lines.  I mean, if you reach the junction of such and  such a creek with the Morice River, thence in an  easterly direction say 27 miles, and you'd measure  that off on the scale of the map, and thence following  perhaps a named creek, and so formulate a description  of an area.  Did you actually formulate such descriptions?  Yes.  The descriptions, whatever you formulated, were  subject to the examination and confirmation and  adjustment of the game department?  Yes, yes.  And they were frequently adjusted?  Yes.  It was — it was a policy of the game branch --  I think I explained this once before — to extend the  boundary of a trapline where it ran — where it  encompassed the watershed of a creek to the headwaters  of that creek so that there would not be trespass  along a trapper's trapline in order to reach another  trapline beyond it, if you follow what I'm trying to  explain.  Yeah, I recall your evidence on that.  I'm going to  ask you about that in just a moment —  Um hum.  — in relation to a map that we have.  We've been  dealing in relation to this map, 77, with trapping  areas which were defined by some either map  description or a written description.  Um hum.  But I want to ask you now about the areas where there  was no description on a map of this sort, and that is  of Map 77 — like Map 77.  You indicated that you  defined certain areas yourself?  Um hum.  And this would be in the absence of any description  that would appear on an existing map that you could  refer to?  Yeah.  Did you also in doing these descriptions do a sketch?  Yes. 17 0  J.V. Boys (for Defendant]  Cross-exam by Mr. Rush  1  Q  2  A  3  Q  4  A  5  Q  6  A  7  8  Q  9  A  10  Q  11  12  A  13  Q  14  15  16  17  A  18  Q  19  20  A  21  Q  22  23  A  24  25  26  21  Q  28  A  29  Q  30  A  31  Q  32  33  A  34  Q  35  36  37  A  38  Q  39  40  A  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  Q  What did you do with the sketch?  Sent it into the game branch.  This would be something hand drawn by you?  Yes.  And on the sketch — what would appear on the sketch?  Well, it would be a tracing of whatever was on our  map.  But if you didn't have your map, what did you do?  Well, we would go to somebody who did have one.  All right.  Well, let me just ask you then — now, I'm  showing you now, Mr. Boys, Exhibit 15 —  Um hum.  — which is Map 17A we're calling it, and I'm  directing your attention to the north-east portion  where the words "Wright, Wright, Thomas and Co."  appear.  Do you see that?  Um hum.  Now,   you'll  agree with me that  there  is no northern  boundary  on  this?  Right.  So at least in terms of the northern boundary there  was nothing to sketch?  Well, it runs on to the next map to the north of it,  which is — it should be designated on here somewhere.  Yeah, there is another map that's continuous to this  to the north of it.  Um hum.  3 8C.  And those lines run on to Map 3 8C.  So that's what we would expect?  Yeah.  That you'd be able to take a tracing of something that  runs north up to the next map?  Yeah.  All right.  What about — if you'll look here at the  Sam Morrison line, at least to my eye there seems to  be an intersection between two trapping areas?  Um hum.  And what tracing would you take there in respect of  the area that seems to intercept between the Wright —  Well, I wouldn't take a tracing then.  This is — this  map was — I don't know where it came from, but this  is the sort of situation that I had described as a  mess that I encountered when I got to Hazelton, and  there isn't any of my printing on this map.  I can't  see where I've made any improvements or alterations or  anything on this particular map.  What I'm trying to determine is that in a situation 171  J.V.   Boys   (for Defendant)  Cross-exam by Mr.   Rush  1 like this ~  2 A      Where  there was  some  conflict?  3 Q       Yes.     — what would you do  if you  couldn't  take a  4 tracing  from  the map?  5 A       Well,   I  —  I  can't visualize a  situation where I  6 couldn't  take a   tracing  from a map.  7 Q       Well,   isn't  this  one?  8 A       No.     I  could  take a  tracing  off   that map now,   but  I  9 would  show  the  game department that there is a  10 conflict between  this line,  which apparently  is  11 considered to be  the  —  the  trapline  of  —  it mentions  12 here Wright,   Wright,   Thomas and  Company,  and  there is  13 a conflict between that and Sam Morrison's  land.     But  14 I  could  take  the  tracing off  and  send it as  such  to  15 the game branch  and  tell  them that  there  is  a  conflict  16 here and ask  them what  they  suggest we do about  it.  17 Q       All  right.     Were  there  situations where you didn't  18 send a  tracing,  where you  simply  sent a written  19 description?  20 A  It would be very foolish if I didn't send a tracing.  21 Q  Well, it might be foolish, but did you do it?  22 A  No, I don't think so.  23 Q  You see, what I'm trying to determine, Mr. Boys, is  24 were there situations in which a description was given  25 to you or you were able —  26 A  No.  27 Q  — to ascertain a written description which you sent  28 in?  29 A  No.  You know, an Indian might — might tell me that  30 "I want to register my trapline on Bear Creek," but I  31 would get together with the Indian, and we would  32 determine as far as possible where his area was and  33 how it might conform with the adjacent areas, make out  3 4 some application with a tracing and a description as  3 5 far as it was possible, and send that in to the game  36 branch, and from there it was their responsibility.  37 And in extreme cases, if there was a serious conflict,  3 8 as in the Wright, Wright, Thomas and the Sam Morrison  3 9 case, it might even be necessary for a game warden to  40 go out and take a look at that area and try and make  41 some determination, but that wasn't my responsibility.  42 Q  Right.  That might be something for the game warden to  43 do, to see what the — what it looks like on the  44 ground?  45 A  Yeah.  This is a very, very old map.  This is — this  46 is, I think, older than the map that I might have had  47 in my — in my detachment office.  There should be 172  J.V. Boys (for Defendant)  Cross-exam by Mr. Rush  1 somebody's initials on it somewhere.  2 Q  Do you see anything there?  3 A  No, I don't.  4 Q       Anything at  the  other  end that helps you date  it?  5 A      No.     No,   I  don't  see it  on  this one.  6 MS.   KOENIGSBERG:     I   think  it  probably  should be noted,   although  7 I don't know for what purpose,   that  there is visible,  8 but barely visible,   for  instance,   a  letter  underneath  9 a darkened  spot,   so  if  there were initials,   they  10 may —  you know —  they may have been  similarly  11 obliterated.  12 MR.   RUSH:  13 Q      Okay.     Just  have a  seat  there.  14 A      Nothing  on  there?  15 Q       No,   I  don't  see a  thing on that one.  16 A       No.  17 Q      I wanted  to direct your  attention — however,   if  we  18 can —   if we  can  just roll  it  up to  the  other  end  19 without   causing  too much problem with  this.  20 A      A little bit dilapidated,   isn't it?  21 Q      It's  getting  there.     A lot of hands  have rolled  it.  22 You  don't  see anything  on  that end,   do you,   Mr.   —  23 A       No,   I  don't.  24 Q       —  Boys?  25 Nothing there that helps?  26 A  No.  27 Q  All right.  I just want to show you, if we take it out  28 to this north-easterly end here, you'll just see here  29 the words "Bear Lake Charlie"?  3 0 A  Um hum.  31 Q  Now, is the area that is to the north and east, where  32 the written words "Bear Lake Charlie" are located, is  33 that one such area which you would consider or  3 4 considered to be an open area?  35 A  No, because he's not — Bear Lake Charlie is not my  36 responsibility.  37 Q       I  see.     That would be —  38 A       I  think we've run off  my —  3 9 Q      This  is off  your —  40 A      —  my  area.  41 Q  — jurisdiction, is it?  42 A  Yeah, it runs on to Reference Map 56 here to the east,  43 and it runs on to another map to the north.  44 Q  All right.  45 A      I —  I haven't got myself  properly oriented as  to  46 exactly where we are,  but here is —  47 Q      Here is Kisgegas here. 173  J.V.  Boys   (for  Defendant)  Cross-exam by  Mr.   Rush  1  A  2  3  Q  4  5  A  6  7  8  9  10  11  12  Q  13  A  14  15  Q  16  A  17  MR.  RUSH  18  MR.  WOLF  19  MR.  RUSH  20  MR.  WOLF  21  MR.  RUSH  22  Q  23  24  25  26  27  A  28  Q  29  A  30  Q  31  32  33  34  A  35  36  Q  37  38  A  39  Q  40  A  41  Q  42  43  A  44  Q  45  A  46  47  Oh,   yeah.     Well,  we are  still   in my detachment area  but —  You see, I thought that you went over to the — to  Babine Lake.  I do.  Where the Babine River comes in here, it comes  into Babine — the very northerly end of Babine Lake.  In fact, it — it turns to the south almost as it  reaches the — the north end of Babine Lake, which is  down here.  And this area up here is — is Stuart  Lake.  The Stuart Lake boundary ran more or less  north-west and south-east.  Okay.  And so that is to the — fairly well to the north  of — the north end of Babine Lake.  Okay.  So that's off your jurisdictional —  Yeah.  — perimeter?  All right.  Could you identify that map?  Could I or did I?  Well,   I  don't  think  it's been identified.  I  thought  that  I  did,  but  I will.     It's  Exhibit 16,  and  I  think we called  this  17A Telkwa.  Mr.   Boys,   do you remember  the number  of  maps  that  you had in your office altogether before they were  sent  off  for  correction?  You mean of   that  type  of   trapline map?  Yes,   that's  right.  No,   I'm afraid  I  don't  remember  exactly how many.  Okay.     I wanted  to  show you a  list  of  trapline maps,  which  is  taken  from Attorney-General  of  Canada's   file  number  10807,   and I wondered  if  you could recall  that  as having been  part  of  the  files  of your agency?  Well,   I  can remember a lot  of  those numbers,  but  I  can't --  I  can't  remember  all  of  them I'm afraid.  Okay.     There were map numbers  similar  to the map  numbers  on  this  —  Yes.  — list?  Yeah, and including definitely some of those numbers.  Is there — which ones do you remember? We've talked  about 17 A and —  Yeah.  — 77.  Well, I remember 17A and 17B, and I remember 3 8B and  3 8C and some of the 50 numbers, and I can't remember  exactly which  of  those,   and beyond that I really can't 17 4  J.V. Boys (for Defendant)  Cross-exam by Mr. Rush  1 recall.  I — there were a fairly large number of  2 maps.  3 Q  Okay.  Have you — apart from these three maps, have  4 you seen any other maps recently, linen trapline maps?  5 A  You showed me a map, and I'm not sure what the number  6 was.  7 MR. WOLF: Well, when I spoke to Mr. Boys earlier, I showed him  8 I believe it was one of the — Map 17 and another map.  9 THE WITNESS:  Some weeks ago or a week.  Two or three weeks ago  10 you showed me a map.  11 MR. RUSH:  12 Q  Mr. Wolf you're saying — you're directing your  13 attention to Mr. Wolf?  14 A  Yes.  15 Q      You're saying he  showed you some of  the maps?  16 A       Yes.  17 Q      Were  they  similar  to these  or were  they  these  maps?  18 A       I  don't recollect  the number.  19 MS.   KOENIGSBERG:     If  you require  it,   we can provide you with  the  20 numbers of  the maps  that we  showed him.  21 MR. RUSH:  22 Q  I'm content to go on Mr. —  23 A  It wasn't anything specific.  It was sort of a general  24 illustration of — of the sort of reference that I  25 might be asked to make.  26 Q  I see.  All right.  27 A  So — and I don't recollect what the map number was.  28 Q  Okay.  So I can get this clear, Mr. Boys, am I right  29 in saying that there was one set of maps, trapline  30 maps, that were held in the Babine Agency office in  31 Hazelton until you shipped them off to see if you  32 could get better ones?  33 A  Yeah.  3 4 Q  And that was sometime around November of 1947?  35 A  Yeah.  36 Q  We've seen from the correspondence —  37 A  And we may not have shipped all of them.  Those that  3 8 were in a different scale or were not sufficiently up  3 9 to date, those that had been replaced by more  40 up-to-date maps in the game department office.  41 Q  Is it possible that you had maps of two series?  42 A  Oh, yes.  43 Q  So you may have had some maps of a more up-to-date  44 version as they had down in the game office?  45 A  Yes.  46 Q  I see.  47 A  We may have had some of those because the office — 17 5  J.V. Boys (for Defendant)  Cross-exam by Mr. Rush  1 the geographer's office in Victoria got around to  2 doing areas, and where they got a submission of a  3 number of additional surveys in an area from whatever  4 source — it might have been a mining company that  5 came in and did a fair amount of survey work in the  6 area — then they would submit their maps to the  7 geographer, and the geographer in turn would get  8 around in due course to revising the map in that area.  9 When those maps were revised, they were sent out to  10 the government agent's office and the office of the  11 game department, but we were not on their mailing list  12 through — I suppose through our own omission in the  13 commissioner's office, and we didn't get the  14 up-to-date maps at the same time that the others did.  15 So not all maps were revised at the same time.  They  16 were revised piecemeal.  17 Q  And you certainly — your office certainly didn't  18 order them in any consistent way?  19 A  No, we — we would only be able to order them through  20 the Indian Commissioner's office.  21 Q  Okay.  Now, perhaps we've covered this, but in several  22 of the letters which you penned you said that the  23 geography of your map and the B.C. Game Department's  24 map were not similar?  25 A  Yeah.  26 Q       And  that's  a quote  from one  of  your  letters?  27 A       Um hum.  28 MR. RUSH:  Well, we can just go to Exhibit number 43, in which a  29 similar reference is made in about the fifth to last  30 line.  31 MS.   KOENIGSBERG:     Is  that  the November  20th?  32 MR. RUSE:  33 Q  Yeah, November 20th, '47, letter in which you say in  3 4 part, and I quote:  35  36 "...but I understand that you still have the  37 trapline maps from this agency which were  3 8 forwarded to your office from Game Warden  3 9 Martin at Prince Rupert because we were  40 unable to amend them from the maps in the  41 Smithers or Prince Rupert offices owing to  42 considerable difference in geography."  43  4 4 A  Um hum.  45 Q  Now, the considerable difference in geography, that  46 was in terms of the topographical reference features  47 on the more up-to-date maps not being present on the 176  J.V. Boys (for Defendant)  Cross-exam by Mr. Rush  1 editions that you had?  2 A  Mostly that was the — that was the problem, yes.  3 MR. RUSH: Okay.  You also voice, Mr. Boys, a similar concern in  4 your December 17th, '47 letter, which is Exhibit 14,  5 in the second sentence of the second paragraph, and I  6 quote:  7  8 "All of this has proved most useful, but  9 another essential step that" —  10  11 MS. KOENIGSBERG:  Sorry, are you on the third sentence?  12 MR. RUSH:  13 Q  Yes.  Thank you for pointing that out.  14  15 "All of this has proved most useful, but  16 another essential step, that of revising our  17 maps, proved impossible because we had no  18 standard against which to check the maps of  19 this office."  20  21 And that — that sentence sets out the difficulties  22 that you were encountering with regard to the maps  23 that you had?  24 A  Um hum.  25 MR. RUSH:  All right.  I've got another area here, but I could  26 go into it -- which is going to take me some period of  27 time.  28 MS.   KOENIGSBERG:     I   think  it would be preferable  to break.  29 MR. RUSH:  30 Q  All right.  Is that acceptable to you, Mr. Boys —  31 A       Yes.  32 Q      —  if  we break now?  33 A       Yeah.  3 4 MR.   RUSH:     All  right.     Thank you.     We'll  adjourn now,   I  guess,  3 5 my cross-examination  to a  time  to be mutually agreed  36 to,  probably  in the week of  the 14th and hopefully  the  37 17th  of November.  3 8          MS.   KOENIGSBERG:      Yes.  3 9 THE WITNESS:     Fine.  40 MR.   RUSH:     Thank you.  41  42 (PROCEEDINGS   ADJOURNED  AT  3:10   P.M.)  43  44  45  46  47 177  J.V. Boys (for Defendant)  Cross-exam by Mr. Rush  1  2  3 I hereby certify the foregoing to be  4 a true and accurate transcript of the  5 proceedings herein to the best of my  6 skill and ability.  7  10 Leanna Smith  11 Official Reporter  12 United Reporting Service Ltd.  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47

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