Delgamuukw Trial Transcripts

Commision Evidence of Jefferay Vincent Boys Vol. 1 British Columbia. Supreme Court Nov 1, 1988

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 <3n %  Supreme Court of ^Brtttslj Columbia  Na 0843  Smithers  VICTORIA, B.C..  Registry                     NOVEMBER 1 , 1988  BETWEEN:  DELGAMUUKW, also know as KEN MU.DOE,  suing on his own behalf and on sehalf  of all other members of the HOUSE OF  DELGAMUUKW, and others,  Plaintiffs;  AND:  i  HER MAOEST" THE QUEEN IN RIGHT OF THE  PROVINCE OF BRITISH COLUMBIA and  THE ATTORNEY-GENERAL FOR CANADA,  ■  Defendants.  COMMISSION EVIDENCE CF OEFFERAY VINCENT BOYS  ■ ==—= g==;]L!g—^JL 'ii I ■ I—zg-—- —~-~ —— . l-L  ,   ' trnxme imh —-——   ..- -J  —  ■ ~ —— ~-—--^=L  mil  iHMlsaMl  UNITED  REPORTING  UNITED REPORTING SERVICE LTD.. 610 - 1030 WEST GEORGIA 5TOEET, VANCOUVER, B.C. WE 4K (504) 639-108-5 <31rt tlje ^upvtmt Court of Jirittslj Columbia  Na 0843  Smithers  BETWEEN:  Registry  VICTORIA, B.C.  NOVEMBER 1, 1988  DELGAMUUKW, also know as KEN MULDOE,  suing on his own behalf and on behalf  of all other members of the HOUSE OF  DELGAMUUKW, and others,  AND  HER MAJESTY THE QUEEN IN RIGHT OF  PROVINCE OF BRITISH COLUMBIA and  THE ATTORNEY-GENERAL FOR CANADA,  Plaintiffs  THE  Defendants.  COMMISSION EVIDENCE OF OEFFERAY VINCENT BOYS  UNITED REPORTING SERVICE JQ, 610 -1030 WEST GEORGIA STREET. VANCOUVER. aC V6E 4H4 (604) 689-1088 APPEARANCES:  S. RUSH, ESQ,  appearing for the Plaintiffs  O.M. MACKENZIE, ESQ,  appearing for Her Majesty the  Queen in Right of the Province  of British Columbia  MS. M. KOENIGSBERG  and M.T. WOLF, ESQ  appearing for the Attorney  General of Canada INDEX OF WITNESSES  WITNESSES FOR THE ATTORNEY GENERAL OF CANADA  BOYS, JEFFERAY VINCENT  In chief by Ms. Koenigsberg  PAGE INDEX  TO  EXHIBITS  Number  Description  Page Number  1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  Letter dated Oune 6, 1947  Letter dated Oune 16, 1947, from the Indian  Commissioner to Mr. Boys  Letter dated Oune 17, 1947, from Mr. Conn to  Mr. Boys  Letter dated August 5, 1947, from Mr. Martin  to Mr. Boys  Letter dated August 14, 1947  Letter dated October 27, 1947, from Mr. Gill  to Mr. Boys  Letter dated October 3, 1947, from Mr. Boys  to the game warden of Smithers  Letter dated November 3, 1947, from Mr. Boys  to the game warden in Smithers  Letter dated November 10, 1947, from Mr. Boys  to Mr. Ray Morgan  10 FOR IDENTIFICATION  File labelled "Alexander White"  10A  10B  10C  10D  10E  10F  10G  11  Application for Administration or Probate  Last Will and Testament of Mary White  Handwritten Will of Alexander White  Typewritten Will of Alexander White, three pages  Letter dated March 16, 1950, from Mr. Boys to  the Department of Indian Affairs  Letter dated Ouly 10, 1950, from Mr. Allen  to Mr. Boys  Band Council Resolution dated December 1949  Letter dated November 25: 1946, from G. Moore  to Mr. Boys  7  18  18  18  18  19  20  21  21  29  29  29  29  29  29  29  29  33 INDEX TO EXHIBITS  Number  Description  Page Number  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  Letter dated December 2, 1946, from Mr. Boys  to G. Moore 33  Letter dated November 17, 1947, from Mr. Gill  to Mr. Boys 35  Letter dated December 17, 1947, from Mr. Boys  to the Indian Commissioner for B.C. 35  Map 17A 45  Map 17A Telkwa 45  Map 77, Moricetwon Band 45  Application for Registration of a Trapline, pink  copy, found in A.G. of Canada's document 4514 48  Sketch labelled "Louis 0. Gelly Trapline" 49  Map with the designation "Hazelton, B.C., February  2nd, 1954, Trapline Registration Blackwater,  Walter" 51  Tracing of Exhibit 20 51  Photocopy of a letter dated January 31, 1951,  from Mr. Boys to Walter Blackwater 52  Photocopy of Agreement dated February 5, 1951 53  Letter dated February 12, 1951 53  Photocopy of a letter dated May 2nd, 1951 54  Photocopy of general receipt number 72136 54 1  J.V. Boys (for Defendant)  In chief by Ms. Koenigsberg  1 Victoria, B.C.  2 November 1, 1988  3  4 JEFFERAY VINCENT BOYS, SWORN:  5  6 EXAMINATION IN CHIEF BY MS. KOENIGSBERG:  7 Q  Would you state your name for the record, Mr. Boys?  8 A  My name is Jefferay Vincent Boys.  That's  9 J-e-f-f-e-r-a-y, Vincent, and the surname is B-o-y-s.  10 Q  And for the record, I would confirm that the oath has  11 been administered to Mr. Boys.  12 Mr. Boys, what is your age today?  13 A  I was born in 1909, so I'm in my eightieth year.  14 Q  And where do you live today?  15 A  In Victoria, Oak Bay.  16 Q  And we've asked you to be — to give evidence because  17 you were an Indian Agent and an employee in a variety  18 of capacities with the Department of Indian Affairs —  19 A  Urn hum.  20 Q  — some years ago; is that correct?  21 A  That's correct.  22 Q  And could you please tell us what was your career  23 prior to 1946, generally?  24 A  Well, I was — I was born in England and educated  25 there.  I came to Canada in 1930 at the age of 20, and  26 I took a variety of jobs because it was a rather  27 difficult time to find employment.  I worked in — I  28 worked in a logging camp, I worked in the fishing  29 industry, and eventually I joined the British Columbia  30 Police.  31 Q  Approximately when would that have been; do you  32 recall?  33 A  That would have been in April 1932.  And I was — I  3 4 went through police training school and then was  35 posted to a number of different detachments either  36 relieving somebody on holiday or somebody who was  37 sick, and eventually I was posted to the Cassiar  3 8 District of British Columbia with headquarters in  3 9 Telegraph Creek.  That was just a one-man detachment.  40 It was an enormous area from the Yukon border to, oh,  41 in the south about the third cabin on the Yukon — on  42 the Yukon telegraph line and from — and from the  43 Alaska panhandle boundary to the Rocky Mountain  44 trench.  And in addition to my duties in the police I  45 was also the government agent, which entailed a  46 variety of duties.  I was the land commissioner, the  47 mining recorder, gold commissioner, assessor and 2  J.V. Boys (for Defendant)  In chief by Ms. Koenigsberg  1 collector of taxes, and a number of other duties.  2 Q  How long — how long did you hold those positions?  3 A  I was up there for about four and a half years.  And  4 after that I was posted to Merritt in the Nicola  5 Valley, and from there very briefly to Kamloops.  And  6 in 1941 I joined the Air Force, and I served in the  7 Air Force throughout the war.  8 Q  You returned to Canada in 19 45?  9 A  Yes, and in 1946 I applied for a job — the job of  10 Indian Agent at Cranbrook, and I was the successful  11 candidate.  But I had only been in Cranbrook for less  12 than a year and they transferred me to Hazelton.  13 Q  Okay.  So you commenced your career as Indian Agent in  14 Hazelton in 1946 --  15 A  Yes.  16 Q  — or '47?  17 A  1946, about — I would think about August or  18 September.  19 Q  And in 1946 the position that you had held in  20 Hazelton, that was — was called Indian Agent?  21 A  Yes.  22 Q  Subsequently did the title of that job change?  23 A  Yes, it changed sometime within the next few years.  24 It came to be known as Indian Superintendent.  25 Q  But those two terms are interchangeable for the job  26 that you had?  27 A  Yeah, exactly the same.  28 Q  And you were centred in Hazelton?  29 A   Right.  30 Q  And how long were you Indian Agent or Indian  31 Superintendent in Hazelton altogether?  32 A  Until the summer of 1951, five years.  33 Q  And I'm obviously going to come back to your duties  3 4 while you were in Hazelton, but I just want to cover  3 5 the chronology — to continue the chronology of your  36 career.  When you left Hazelton in the summer of 1951,  37 where did you go next?  3 8 A  Went to Kamloops, and I was Indian Superintendent in  3 9 Kamloops until the summer of 1954.  And then I went to  40 the Cowichan Agency with headquarters in Duncan from  41 1954 until 1959, and at that time I was transferred to  42 Ottawa to another department, and I was Assistant  43 Director of Inspection Services for the Department of  44 Citizenship, and Immigration and —  45 Q  How long did you hold that position?  46 A  For a little over two years.  The job was an  47 investigation of illegal immigration into Canada.  And 3  J.V. Boys (for Defendant)  In chief by Ms. Koenigsberg  1 then in 1961 I entered a competition for the position  2 of what was then known as Indian Commissioner for  3 British Columbia, and I was successful in that, and I  4 came back to British Columbia in 1961, September.  5 Q  Okay.  And how long did you hold the position of  6 Indian Commissioner?  7 A  Until 1969.  In 1969 the then Minister of Indian  8 Affairs, Jean Chretien, issued a White Paper in  9 response to requests by a number of Indian groups  10 across Canada to have the administration of their  11 affairs taken out of the hands of the federal  12 government and administered by the provincial  13 government, at least those services which other  14 Canadians were receiving through the provincial  15 government.  And so the minister issued a White Paper  16 proposing the transfer of such matters as education,  17 social welfare, and all of those services that  18 Canadians generally received through their respective  19 provincial governments.  And since I had had a great  20 deal of contact with deputy ministers of various  21 departments, I was transferred here to Victoria as the  22 liaison.  And after maybe a year or a year and a half  23 the Indians decided that this was not what they  24 wanted, so they — the proposal fell through.  And in  25 1972 I retired.  26 Q  Okay.  Let's go back then and focus on your career in  27 Hazelton as Indian Agent.  Who -- do you recall who  28 your predecessor as Indian Agent was in the Babine  29 Agency?  30 A  Yes, his name was Mallinson.  31 Q  Okay.  And the Babine Agency was the name of the  32 agency which was centred in Hazelton?  33 A  Yeah, that's right.  It was situated from a point  3 4 geographically approximately midway between Hazelton  35 and Terrace on the Skeena River, and to the east to  36 Topley Landing, which is, oh, about 20, 25 miles east  37 of Houston, and then mostly north of the — of the  3 8 railway line from Prince George to Prince Rupert and  3 9 as far north as, oh, about to the third cabin on  40 the — on the telegraph line to north of Babine Lake  41 and to about the Bell-Irving River.  42 Q  And —  43 A  I think I should explain that there are two distinct  44 groups of Indians there.  45 Q  Would you, please.  46 A  The Indians, the Gitksan, along the — the Skeena  47 River — 4  J.V. Boys (for Defendant)  In chief by Ms. Koenigsberg  1 Q  And can you spell that for the reporter?  2 A  Well, I suppose there are a variety of spellings of  3 it, but I think G-i-t-i-k-s-a-n.  4 Q  Okay.  5 A  They had a different culture totally from the — the  6 Indians to the east, who were Carriers.  7 Q  Okay.  And could you — and I'll test your memory.  8 Can you tell us the names of the bands of the Indians  9 who fell within your jurisdiction in the Babine  10 Agency?  11 A  Yes.  Starting at the west were the Kitwanga,  12 K-i-t-w-a-n-g-a, Kitwancool, K-i-t-w-a-n-c-o-o-1,  13 Kitseguecla, K-i-t-s-e-g-u-e-c-1-a.  And then we come  14 up to Hazelton, and north of Hazelton was Glen Vowell,  15 that's G-l-e-n V-o-w-e-1-1, and Kispiox,  16 K-i-s-p-i-o-x.  Those were the — well, there was  17 another small band, the Kisgegas, K-i-s-g-e-g-a-s.  18 Those were the Indians of the Gitksan.  And then to  19 the east — oh, I should know.  Hagwilget was the  20 first, H-a-g-w-i-1-g-e-t, and then Moricetown, that's  21 M-o-r-i-c-e-town, t-o-w-n.  And on the Babine Lake  22 there was a band at Topley Landing.  This was a part  23 of the — the Babine Band.  There was — there was  24 another band at Old Fort halfway up the lake, and the  25 largest part of that group was at Fort Babine where  26 the Babine left the north end of Babine Lake.  27 Q  And was the group at Old Fort within your  28 jurisdiction?  29 A  Yes.  30 MS.   KOENIGSBERG:     Just   to  complete  —  31 MR.   RUSH:     Is   that  to  say  that  the  others weren't  or   that  they  32 all  were?  33 THE WITNESS:  No, some of the — some of the Indians on the  3 4 south end of Babine Lake at Pendleton Bay were in  3 5 the — what was then known as the Stuart Lake Agency,  36 later became the Burns Lake Agency.  37 MS.   KOENIGSBERG:  3 8 Q  I was just going to ask you to complete the  39 jurisdictional picture.  If you could tell us what the  40 names of the adjacent, immediately adjacent to your  41 area, district offices were? There was the Babine  42 Agency.  You've now told us the Stuart Lake Agency.  43 A  Well, to the west there was the Prince Rupert Agency,  44 and it came as far as Kitselas, which is — that's  45 K-i-t-s-e-1-a-s, and it is a little above Terrace on  46 the Skeena River.  And to the east was the Stuart Lake  47 Agency, and I think their most easterly band was at 5  J.V. Boys (for Defendant)  In chief by Ms. Koenigsberg  1 Burns Lake.  There was an agency at Telegraph Creek,  2 and to the south there were — there were — I think  3 the only — the only agency — there weren't any  4 Indians very close to — to my agency to the south,  5 but I imagine that the responsibility at that time was  6 probably with the Williams Lake Agency.  7 Q  Okay.  Now, when you arrived in Hazelton at the office  8 of the Indian Affairs, was there any staff?  9 A  No.  Well, I went first of all to — in the transfer I  10 went first of all to Vancouver, and in Vancouver I met  11 a stenographer who had been working at the Hazelton  12 Agency.  She had been the only staff other than Mr.  13 Mallinson, but she had resigned, and she offered to go  14 back for one month just to show me the ropes, show me  15 where everything was, and was kind enough to do so.  16 But aside from that there was no staff.  17 Q  Okay.  And did you add staff?  18 A  Add staff?  19 Q  Add staff —  20 A  Yes.  21 Q  — once you were there?  22 A   Yes.  23 Q  And in terms of position, what was the staff  24 complement?  25 A  There was a position for a clerk stenographer, and  26 that was all at first.  27 Q  All right.  And I would like you to tell us in, at  28 least at first, general terms what were the  29 responsibilities of the Indian Agent at that time?  30 A  Well, the general administration of education,  31 welfare, housing.  There was co-operation with Indian  32 health services with respect to matters of health,  33 public health. Meetings with band councils and bands  3 4 generally with respect to important matters regarding  3 5            bands or individuals.  Traplines, estates.  Quite a  36 wide variety.  Employment.  A lot of — a lot of  37 effort made to try and find — help individuals find  3 8 employment, and co-operation with prospective  3 9 employers and particularly, with — with respect to  40 the Indians along the Skeena, with fishing companies,  41 who employed a great number of them up the coast.  42 Q  Okay.  What was the form, if I can put it that way, of  43 the instructions, if any, which you received from the  44 Department of Indian Affairs at that time to carry out  45 these functions?  46 A  Well, there was — there was a sort of book of general  47 orders we can call it, I suppose, in the military, and 6  J.V. Boys (for Defendant)  In chief by Ms. Koenigsberg  1 that was a reference book, and there was a file of  2 circulars from the — from the regional office in  3 Vancouver.  4 Q  Okay.  5 A  That was what you went by.  6 Q  All right.  7 A  And, of course, there was the Indian Act, which was  8 the legal instrument governing the Indians.  9 Q  And did you have a function particularly under the  10 Indian Act in terms of carrying out your duties?  11 A  Yes.  12 Q  And can you describe that?  What would be the use that  13 you would make of the Indian Act?  14 A  Well, it was the — it was the guide as to what was  15 the legal position with respect to the Indians and the  16 conduct of affairs of the Indians.  17 Q  Okay.  When you arrived in Hazelton, were there  18 particular areas which took up immediately a great  19 deal of your time and concern?  20 A  Yeah.  Well, I think I should explain that my  21 predecessor was released because he wasn't — wasn't  22 very efficient, and I think the conditions when I  23 arrived could best be described as chaotic.  The  24 filing system was not up to date, and very little was  25 up to date, so that was pretty much the situation.  26 Q  Was doing something about the filing system and the —  27 what you call the paper administration one of your  28 first tasks?  29 A  Yes.  I wanted particularly to find somebody to come  30 in and do — I'm no typist, and I needed someone to  31 come in and help run the office while I got out and  32 worked with the Indians.  33 Q  All right.  And did you effect that change?  3 4 A  Yes.  I found somebody, but it proved that she was not  3 5 satisfactory to the Indian Superintendent's office in  36 spite of the fact that I found her highly satis-  37 factory, so they sent somebody else.  Eventually my  3 8 staff over the years was increased, and I had  3 9 eventually a very satisfactory staff, including, I  40 might say, a very competent Indian clerk from Kispiox.  41 Q  And who was that?  42 A  That was Margaret Harrison.  43 Q  All right.  And was there a particular area of —  44 aside from the need to bring some order and updating  45 to the records to which you attended, was there a  46 particular problem relating to the functions that you  47 had to carry out which concerned you when you first 7  J.V. Boys (for Defendant)  In chief by Ms. Koenigsberg  1 arrived and seemed to call to your attention?  2 A  When I first arrived, I wanted to meet with the  3 Indians to find out what their problems were.  They  4 were just about that time starting to come back from  5 the coast, so it was a general round of meeting with  6 the Indians.  And then, of course, some of them,  7 particularly those in the eastern part, were concerned  8 about getting out on their traplines in the fall, and  9 the trapline situation was not in good order.  10 MS. KOENIGSBERG:  Okay.  I just want to show you a letter.  I'm  11 referring first to a letter of June 6th, 1947.  12 MR. RUSH:  You sent me two bundles of material.  Is this —  13 MS. KOENIGSBERG:  It's in the first bundle, I believe.  Okay.  Do you have a number for it?  3041 or 1738.  And the date again?  14 MR. RUSH  15 MR. WOLF  16 MR. RUSH  17 MS.   KOENIGSBERG:     June   6th,   1947.  18 MR. RUSH  19 MR. WOLF  20 MR. RUSH  The first one?  One is a copy of the other.  Yes.  21 MS.   KOENIGSBERG:  22 Q  Mr. Boys, I'm showing you a letter dated June 6th,  23 1947.  This copy happens to come from the Public  24 Archives of Canada, stamped at the bottom, and on the  25 third page do you recognize your signature?  26 A   Yes.  27 Q  And can you identify that as a document you wrote in  28 the early part of your tenure at Hazelton as Indian  29 Agent?  30 A  Yes.  Certainly describes the situation, and it's my  31 signature.  32 MS. KOENIGSBERG:  All right.  I would like to mark that as the  33 first exhibit on this commission.  34  35 (EXHIBIT 1:  Letter dated June 6th, 1947)  36  37 MS. KOENIGSBERG:  3 8 Q  Now, I just want to ask you a couple of I'll call them  3 9 preliminary questions about writing this kind of  40 letter, and then I want to discuss the contents with  41 you.  First, I note that the letter is copied to the  42 Indian Commissioner of British Columbia?  43 A  Yes.  44 Q  Would that be something that you would do in the  45 normal course of your duties?  46 A  Yes.  47 Q  And were you required in fact to report to the Indian J.V. Boys (for Defendant)  In chief by Ms. Koenigsberg  1 Commissioner?  2 A  Yeah, I was.  I was required, as a matter of fact, in  3 the normal course of events to route my correspondence  4 through the Indian Commissioner, and — and that's, of  5 course, to Ottawa, if he felt that that was where it  6 should go.  But I suppose that I was new to the  7 department, and I sent some of my correspondence  8 directly to the department with a copy to the Indian  9 Commissioner.  10 Q  When you say directly to the department, to whom?  Was  11 there a particular route?  12 A  Well, there are — there are a variety of divisions in  13 the department at Ottawa, and there was one division  14 that dealt with lands and estates, and I think that  15 this — I didn't specify where it was to go, but I  16 imagine that — or apparently that was where it landed  17 because there was response from that department.  18 Q  All right.  And were you required to report on the  19 condition of the Indians from time to time —  20 A  Yes.  21 Q  — to the department?  22 A  Yes.  23 Q  And would this letter be an example of your so  24 reporting?  25 A  Well, there was at the — when I first joined Indian  26 Affairs, there was a requirement for a report.  I  27 can't remember whether it was quarterly or semiannual.  28 I know that a report was required to accompany the  29 estimates from the agency, a report on the general  3 0 problems of the agency and the progress that had been  31 made, and that accompanied the estimates.  But it's my  32 recollection that at the outset there was a report  33 required probably quarterly.  34 Q  All right.  3 5 A       And  that  —  that  requirement  I  think was  dropped after  36 a few years.  37 Q  All right.  Do you recall yourself submitting  3 8 quarterly reports?  3 9 A  Vaguely.  I'm not too sure.  I've been in other areas  40 of government service, and I think I should explain  41 that I may confuse some of what I did in the agency  42 at — well, in this agency and others, but  43 particularly in this agency, with what I had been  44 required to do as a government agent before the war in  45 Telegraph Creek.  The country was similar.  The  46 lifestyle was similar.  I was then employed by the  47 provincial government, and I had — they had similar 9  J.V. Boys (for Defendant)  In chief by Ms. Koenigsberg  1 requirements, and I can't just be sure that what I did  2 in one place was — it may be confused with what I was  3 required to do in the other.  4 Q  You did report at least in this — in the fashion of  5 Exhibit 1 on this commission from time to time and  6 routed your correspondence or reporting correspondence  7 through the Indian Commissioner, either directly or en  8 route, and then to the department in Ottawa; is that  9 correct?  10 A  Urn hum, that's right.  11 Q  Dealing with this letter directly, just beginning in  12 the first paragraph, can you tell us if that  13 accurately recalls to your mind what you were — one  14 of the things at least that you were specifically  15 dealing with when you first arrived in Hazelton?  16 A  Yes, among other things, certainly.  17 Q  And, of course, we're talking about registration of  18 traplines?  19 A  Yes.  20 Q  And in the next paragraph you comment on the crest  21 system?  22 A  Urn hum.  23 Q  What, to your knowledge, was the crest system at that  24 time that you refer to in your second paragraph of  25 your letter?  26 A  Well, the Indians were members — that is the Gitksans  27 were members of a clan or crest, as they called it,  28 and these members were not all of one band.  In other  29 words, there were band members or there were crest  3 0 members of the same crest in each band.  You think of  31 this as sort of a clan.  32 Q  Yes.  33 A  And they had leaders of these crests, and the crests  34 liked to keep, for instance, traplines for the benefit  3 5 of — they liked to have traplines registered for the  36 benefit of their crest members.  Now, this presented a  37 considerable difficulty in that there might be members  3 8 of scattered bands all having access to one particular  3 9 large area of trapline, and when it — when a member  40 of a trapline died, his immediate family or his  41 immediate heirs wouldn't necessarily benefit from —  42 from this, and it was in conflict with — it was in  43 conflict with the Indian Act, which provides that  44 property shall descend to either the wife or the  45 immediate heirs of a deceased.  46 Q  If I can just stop you for a moment there and ask you  47 to clarify.  Did you deal with traplines as a part of 10  J.V. Boys (for Defendant)  In chief by Ms. Koenigsberg  1 the, if I can call it, administration of estates?  2 A  Yes.  3 Q  Okay.  4 A  A trapline was — was considered personal property  5 which might be devised to — either by will, or if —  6 if a trapline holder died intestate, that it should go  7 to his — either to his wife or his immediate family.  8 Q  All right.  And how would you as Indian Agent become  9 involved in to whom the trapline should descend in  10 relation to the crest system or the Indian Act as you  11 have described it?  12 A  Well, I was either the executor of the estate in a  13 number of cases, or in the case of anyone who had  14 failed to leave a will, and the majority of Indians  15 did not leave a will, in the case if they died  16 intestate, that I was administrator of that estate.  17 Q  All right.  And can you recall how an issue would  18 arise in which the crest system would come to your  19 notice?  20 A  Well, the — the person or persons who might be  21 expected — who might expect to benefit under the  22 crest system would claim that trapline or make an  23 application for it.  Under the law it had to go to the  24 immediate — to the beneficiary of the deceased, so  25 there was a conflict because the — under the crest  26 system it was a totally different beneficiary.  27 Q  Okay.  Did you perceive or deal with a problem of  28 trapping areas failing to be registered or there being  29 a problem with the registration?  30 A  Yes.  31 Q  Could you describe that?  32 A  Well, we had — we had large maps.  And I should  33 explain that at that particular time the — all of the  34 northern area of B.C. I would say north of the — what  3 5 was formerly known as the Grand Trunk Railway was  36 very, very poorly mapped.  There was no aerial  37 photography until some years after the war.  3 8 Q  Okay.  Just to stop you there, the time of which you  3 9 are speaking would be when?  40 A  The time which I would be speaking would be from 1946,  41 when I went there, until 1951, when I left.  And we  42 hadn't yet received any revised detailed maps at the  43 time I left.  44 Q  All right.  45 A  So we went "by maps that — that came from the chief  46 geographer in Victoria, provincial maps.  These were  47 provided to the game department, and there is no doubt 11  J.V. Boys (for Defendant)  In chief by Ms. Koenigsberg  1 they were quite vague in detail.  There had been some  2 accurate work done by surveyors, triangulation, but  3 there were vast areas that just had not been  4 accurately done.  And in the first instance, when —  5 when the original maps came out, I think that the  6 department was provided with a duplicate set by the  7 B.C. Game Department.  8 MR. RUSH:  I'm just going to interrupt here.  Is this something  9 the witness is speaking about from his direct  10 knowledge, or is this something that he's been told?  11 Is it through some other source?  12 MS.   KOENIGSBERG:  13 Q  I'll ask him.  14 Your description of the mapping difficulties, is  15 what you're telling us what you know from your  16 personal knowledge dealing with the matter when you  17 were there —  18 A  Absolutely.  19 Q  — or is it something that you had been told?  20 A  Particularly in the area north — when I was in the  21 police, I travelled all over that area on my dog team,  22 and I was very much aware that the maps were not  23 accurate.  24 MR. RUSH:  My question was solely directed at the issue of he  25 said in the first instance when the maps came out, and  26 I was wondering if you had knowledge yourself of when  27 they first came out.  28 THE WITNESS:  No.  29 MR. RUSH:  That's what I wanted to know.  30 THE WITNESS:  No, I don't have knowledge.  I wasn't there when  31 they first came out.  32 MS. KOENIGSBERG:  33 Q  But when you describe the maps in the way you do, that  3 4 was the state of the maps when you arrived —  3 5 A  Yes.  36 Q      —  in  Hazelton?  37 A      The game department had a  set  of  maps with  the  3 8 traplines  on  them,  and  there was a   set  of maps  in  the  3 9 office with  traplines on them,  but we very  soon  40 realized  that  the —  there were gaps  in the  two maps.  41 And  eventually we realized that  the game department  42 had received  from time  to time more  up-to-date  copies  43 of  these  maps,   and,   therefore,   they would  —  the  44 geography  of  the two  sets  of maps was  just  not  45 identical.  46 Q  All right.  What —  47 A  That gave rise to discrepancies between what I might 12  J.V. Boys (for Defendant)  In chief by Ms. Koenigsberg  1 apply for.  I would make a sketch map of the area that  2 I was interested in on behalf of one of my Indians,  3 and when I sent it to the game branch, they would say  4 that they couldn't register it because it doesn't fit  5 in with the geography of their map.  So —  6 Q  And then what would happen?  7 A  Well, it would — it would be returned to me, and I  8 would be told to resubmit it in a more accurate form,  9 which, of course, I couldn't do unless I had the maps  10 which conformed to the game branch maps.  11 Q  All right.  Did you attempt to find a solution to that  12 problem?  13 A  Yes.  I sent my maps to the game department and asked  14 them to update them according to their master copies,  15 and they went first of all to Smithers, and then from  16 Smithers they went to Prince Rupert, and then they  17 went to the game inspector in Prince George, and the  18 game — the game inspector eventually told me that —  19 Q  Okay.  Now, you can't tell us.  20 A  Well, he wrote me.  21 MS. KOENIGSBERG: What did you do or what occurred?  22 MR. RUSH:  I'm not objecting to this hearsay.  Go ahead.  23 MS.   KOENIGSBERG:  24 Q       Okay.  25 A  I had correspondence that the — the job that I had  26 asked to be done could not be done because we did not  27 have the same edition of maps as they did, and I asked  28 the Indian Commissioner in Vancouver to remedy that by  29 sending new sets of maps, which to my recollection had  30 not arrived at the time I left.  31 Q  Now, coming back specifically to your letter dealing  32 with the problems of registration of traplines in June  33 of 1947, if you would, I would ask you to comment on  3 4 the statement that you make:  35  36 "In a great many cases no attempt has been  37 made to re-register a trapline upon the  3 8 death of the registered holder so that large  3 9 tracts of country remain open at the present  40 time."  41  42 Was that the state of things that you found when  43 you arrived in Hazelton?  44 A  Yeah.  Yes, it was.  45 MS. KOENIGSBERG:  And can you describe for us your understanding  46 of how that — how that arose?  47 MR. RUSH:  I'd just ask him to distinguish what he knows from 13  J.V. Boys (for Defendant)  In chief by Ms. Koenigsberg  1 his own knowledge and what he knows from others.  I'm  2 not objecting to it; I just want to know the  3 difference.  4 MS.   KOENIGSBERG:  5 Q  Yes.  And if you can, Mr. Boys, will you tell us the  6 source of your knowledge?  7 A  Oh, well, that's a bit hard to recall.  8 Q  I don't mean specifically, but if you can discern for  9 us -- and perhaps I could just stop you as we go along  10 and ask you specifically if it was something you  11 personally observed or if it was something that you  12 were told in the course of carrying out your duties.  13 And I won't — I'll just bring you back to the point  14 that we were dealing with, which was large tracts of  15 country left open because of a non-registration after  16 a death.  How did that occur?  17 A  Well, I would drop in and — and examine maps with the  IB game warden in Smithers, and we would discuss  19 registrations.  And on the one hand there would be  20 individual Indians who would make application for  21 areas, and also there would be applications from non-  22 Indians made for areas, which would be submitted by  23 the game department because this area had at one time  24 belonged to Indians or been registered in the name of  25 Indians, and they would contact me and point out that  26 there was an application from a non-Indian for this  27 land, and so it would come to my knowledge that areas  28 were no longer registered in the records of the B.C.  29 Game Branch.  30 Q  Okay.  And what would be the reasons that would come  31 to your attention as to why an area that say, taking  3 2 one example, an Indian — had been registered in the  33 name of an Indian and now appeared not to be  34 registered in the name of an Indian and a application  35 of a non-Indian would come to your attention?  36 A  Well, because the original Indian owner had died,  37 and — and the — I think the B.C. Game Branch and the  3 8 B.C. Game Act stated that upon the death of a  39 registered trapper that the trapline is open for  40 registration by somebody else.  41 Q  Okay.  That was the state of affairs under the Game  42 Act that you were dealing with when you were there?  43 A  Yes.  44 Q  And what was the policy of the — of Indian Affairs  45 with regard to registration of traplines for Indians?  46 A  Well, it was to continue the tenure of an Indian  47 trapline in the name of an Indian and wherever 14  J.V. Boys (for Defendant)  In chief by Ms. Koenigsberg  1 possible in the — in the name of the assignee by the  2 Indian owner to either a member of his own family or  3 he might will it to somebody else.  4 MS. KOENIGSBERG:  Let me ask you about — what was the policy of  5 your department and of your office while you were  6 there with regard to attempts to register traplines in  7 your — within the area of your jurisdiction to non-  8 Indians?  9 MR. RUSH:  May I just interrupt?  You posed two questions there.  10 One was in relation to the department, and one was in  11 relation to Mr. Boys in the agency.  12 MS. KOENIGSBERG:  Yes.  13 MR.   RUSH:     And  I  wonder  if  you  could  just   isolate  the  two  or,   if  14 you want,   to ask  him both.  15 MS. KOENIGSBERG:  16 Q  Well, I do want to ask him both, but there certainly  17 is an assumption in there.  18 Was the — was there a policy which — which you  19 were to carry out in Hazelton with regard to the  20 registration of traplines by non-Indians?  21 A  Well, there was certainly the policy to — to retain  22 all of the trapping areas that were registered in the  23 name of Indians, and to retain all that for the use  24 and benefit of Indians.  That was the policy and that  25 was the — my objective while I was in office in  26 Hazelton.  27 Q       All   right.  28 A  I might add, also to acquire for the Indians any —  29 any non-Indian areas that might be open for  30 registration.  That didn't very often happen because a  31 non-Indian could sell his trapline to another  32 non-Indian.  33 Q  What was the state of affairs with regard to the sale  3 4 or disposal of traplines by Indians when you were in  3 5 Hazelton?  36 A  Well, it was an Indian was just not permitted to sell  37 to a non-Indian, and it was certainly discouraged by  3 8 all of the bands, all of the Indians themselves.  This  3 9 was the general policy not only of the department, but  40 of the Indians themselves.  They didn't want to lose  41 one acre of trapping area to a non-Indian.  42 Q  All right.  Now, in your letter, which touches on many  43 of the things that you have just mentioned, if I can  44 just summarize very briefly the problem as you have  45 outlined it in your letter and in some of your — your  46 answers.  There was a problem with unregistered areas  47 of trapline, and a problem compounded, as I understand 15  J.V.   Boys   (for  Defendant)  In  chief  by  Ms.   Koenigsberg  1 your  letter,  by   inadequate mapping?  2 A       Urn hum.  3 Q  Did you propose a solution?  4 A  Yes.  I proposed that, as a temporary measure, that  5 any open areas be registered in the name of the  6 Department of Indian Affairs in trust until the —  7 until the rightful owner could be determined, and then  8 it could be — it could be registered in his  9 individual name.  10 Q  Okay.  And what specific problems would that address  11 that you were having in terms of registration?  12 A  What specific problems?  13 Q  Yes.  14 A  Well, it — there was a big backlog of estates to be  15 brought up to date, and in order to determine who was  16 the — the rightful registrant of these traplines, it  17 was necessary to have an estate probated, and until  18 that was done, of course, it was not possible to make  19 a determination.  So if we had the trapline area  20 secured in the name of the department in trust for  21 that particular estate, that would have insured that  22 it could not — that that area, the vacant area, could  23 not be registered in the name of a non-Indian.  24 Q  And what happened to your proposal?  25 A  Well, it was not acceptable to the — to the game  26 branch because it was in conflict with the Game Act at  27 that time.  28 MS.   KOENIGSBERG:     Okay.  29 MR. RUSH:  Just -- can you just pause there for a moment,  3 0 please?  Thank you.  31 MS.   KOENIGSBERG:  32 Q  I'm showing you a letter in — the next — there are  33 two letters that I'm going to put to the witness next.  34 They are the letter of June 16th, 1947, document  35 number 10,807, and June 17th, 1947, from a Mr. Conn,  36 First Supervisor.  The first letter is from the Indian  37 Commissioner, and they're both document 10,807.  I'm  3 8 showing you —  3 9 A  Is this an exhibit?  40 Q  This is already.  We'll just leave it.  41 A  I just wondered if this is to be.  42 Q  It will be.  43 A  Yes.  Okay.  44 Q  The next letter I'd like you to look at is a letter  45 dated June 16th, 1947, apparently addressed to you,  46 and it is from D.M. MacKay, Indian Commissioner for  47 B.C.  Did you receive that letter? 16  J.V.   Boys  (for  Defendant)  In  chief by  Ms.   Koenigsberg  1  A  2  Q  3  4  A  5  6  Q  7  8  A  9  Q  10  11  A  12  Q  13  14  A  15  16  17  18  19  20  Q  21  A  22  Q  23  24  25  A  26  27  28  29  Q  30  A  31  Q  32  33  A  34  35  36  Q  37  38  39  40  41  A  42  43  44  45  Q  46  A  47  Q  Well,   I haven't  initialled it,  but  I  presume I  did.  All  right.     And  just  to deal with a  small  matter here,  can you  identify  the  signature over Mr.   MacKay*s name?  Yes,   that's  the  signature of Mr.   Coleman, who was  the  inspector  of   Indian agencies at  that  time.  Okay.     And did you from time to  time receive letters  over  Mr.   MacKay's name  from Mr.   Coleman?  Yes,   I did.  And is that letter a response to your letter of June  6th, which is marked as Exhibit 1 on this commission?  Yes.  Yeah.  And can you just describe for us generally what the  nature of that response was?  Well, pointing out that the situation with respect to  traplines and estates should not have deteriorated to  this extent, which was quite evident, and stating that  applications for administration of estates should be  applied for without delay and the rightful heir should  be determined, and just to get on with it.  Okay.  That's about   the  summation of   it.  And  I'm  showing you another letter dated June 17th,  1947,   from  H.R.   Conn,   First  Supervisor.     Did you  receive  that letter?  I  —  I  —  you know —  I  can't positively  say  that  I  received  it,   but  I  —  yes,   it has —  it has a  stamp on  it received  in my office June 24th,   so  I guess —  I  guess  that's  —  Do you  recognize that  stamp?  Yes,   I  do.     Urn hum.  Okay.  And did you have a stamp for incoming mail,  received incoming mail?  Yes, I did.  I don't know — I don't know why the  letter from Mr. Coleman escaped the stamp but  apparently —  All right.  And can you describe for us what the  response from the Department of Indian Affairs was as  represented by those letters to your letter-report on  the state of affairs of traplines and estates of June  6th?  Well, Mr. Conn was the first supervisor very much  concerned with trapping all across Canada, and he  suggests that I use any fair means at my disposal to  see that no Indians are deprived of their traplines.  And was he — was he encouraging your proposal?  Yes, he — he's in favour of that proposal.  Okay.  Now, your recollection is that there was a 17  J.V. Boys (for Defendant)  In chief by Ms. Koenigsberg  1 problem from the — from the game department of the  2 province?  3 A  Yes.  4 Q  Do you recall if there was a resolution during your  5 tenure?  6 A  Well, I think there was a resolution of a number of  7 individual traplines.  My relationship with the game  8 department in my area was -- was very — it was a very  9 happy relationship.  We got along very well.  We  10 recognized each other's problems and —  11 Q  Okay.  You've told us that you received a response  12 from the game department, and let me just show you a  13 letter dated August 5th, 1947, addressed to you from  14 E. Martin, Game Warden, and ask you if you recognize  15 that as a document that you received in your office at  16 that time?  17 A  Well, that one was stamped as having been received in  18 the office.  Yes.  I don't — Mr. Martin, in his  19 letter, suggests that we didn't know to what bands the  20 various Indians belonged.  Well, that wasn't true.  21 You know, there was a band list of all the members of  22 each band, and that was on file in the office in  23 Hazelton, so there was never any difficulty about what  24 band that the holder of a trapline belonged to.  25 Q  Okay.  You've — you have sent letters attempting to  26 address the trapline, if I can call it, problem that  27 you encountered when you first arrived, and you dealt  28 with that with your own department.  You sent letters  29 to the game department in an attempt to resolve the  30 difficulties?  31 A  Yes.  32 Q  And you received letters from them —  33 A  Um hum.  3 4 Q  — responding to those difficulties?  35 I note that at the top of this letter of August  36 5th, 1947, it's replying to a letter of yours of July  37 26th, 1947.  I'm not asking you if you recall a  38 specific letter, but were you in correspondence?  39 A  Yes, I referred — as I said earlier, I referred  40 the — the matter of the incompatibility of our  41 records, our trapline records, with those of the game  42 branch first to the game warden in Smithers, and then  43 to Mr. Martin, who was the game warden in Prince  44 Rupert, and finally to Mr. Gill, who was the game  45 inspector in charge of both of those game detachments.  46 Q  Okay.  47 A  And — 18  J.V. Boys (for Defendant)  In chief by Ms. Koenigsberg  1 Q  And?  2 A      Probably  this was  —  the  letter  that Mr.   Martin refers  3 to was my referral   to him of  the problem that  I was  4 encountering.  5 MS. KOENIGSBERG:  Okay.  6 MR. RUSH:  Have you been able to find a copy of that July 26,  7 '47, letter?  8 MS.   KOENIGSBERG:     No.     You  can  take  it  as a given  that  if we  9 haven't provided you with a  copy and we haven't  listed  10 a  copy  of  any  of  the  correspondence mentioned,   we have  11 looked for  it and we haven't  found it.  12 If we could now mark as  Exhibit 2  the letter  of  13 June  16th,   1947,   to Mr.   Boys  from the  Indian  14 Commissioner  as  Exhibit  2,  and  Exhibit 3  would be  the  15 June 17th,   1947,   letter  to Mr.   Boys  from Mr.   Conn,  and  16 then  Exhibit  4  would be  the August  5th  letter  of  1947  17 to Mr.   Boys  from Mr.   Martin.  18  19 (EXHIBIT 2:     Letter  dated June  16,   1947,   from the  Indian  20 Commissioner  to Mr.   Boys)  21  22 (EXHIBIT 3:     Letter  dated June 17,   1947,   from Mr.   Conn to Mr.  23 ~  Boys)  24  25 (EXHIBIT 4:  Letter dated August 5, 1947, from Mr. Martin to Mr.  26 Boys)  27  28 MS.   KOENIGSBERG:  29 Q  Mr. Boys, you received, it would appear, a response  30 from — or you made a response to Mr. Martin's letter,  31 which is now marked, I believe, as Exhibit number 4 on  32 this commission, and I'm showing you a document dated  33 August 14th, 1947, and it's a copy, but do you — can  3 4 you recognize that as a document which you sent?  3 5 A  Well, that certainly expresses the reaction I had to  36 Mr. Martin's letter.  I can't — you know — I can't  37 positively at this stage — at this stage state, but  3 8 it's — my signature isn't on it.  It appears to have  3 9 been sent out in my name, and it certainly expresses  40 what I intended at the time.  41 MR. RUSH:  I'm not taking any objection to it.  42 MS. KOENIGSBERG:  Good.  If we can mark that as the next  43 exhibit.  That's 5, is it?  44  45 (EXHIBIT 5 - Letter dated August 14, 1947)  46  47 MS.   KOENIGSBERG: 18  J.V. Boys (for Defendant)  In chief by Ms. Koenigsberg  1 1 Q  And?  ;   2 2 A  Probably this was — the letter that Mr. Martin re  3 3 to was my referral to him of the problem that I wa  4 4 encountering.  i    5 5 MS. KOENIGSBERG:  Okay.  (   6 6 MR. RUSH:  Have you been able to find a copy of that July 26  7 7 '47, letter?  .   8 8 MS. KOENIGSBERG:  No.  You can take it as a given that if we  I   9 9 haven't provided you with a copy and we haven't li  li  io 10 a copy of any of the correspondence mentioned, we  1 11 11 looked for it and we haven't found it.  1,  12 12 If we could now mark as Exhibit 2 the letter c  i;   13 13 June 16th, 1947, to Mr. Boys from the Indian  1, 14 14 Commissioner as Exhibit 2, and Exhibit 3 would be  II  15 15 June 17th, 1947, letter to Mr. Boys from Mr. Conn,  II   16 16 then Exhibit 4 would be the August 5th letter of 1  1*  17 17 to Mr. Boys from Mr. Martin.  1;   18 18  l<       19 19 (EXHIBIT 2:  Letter dated June 16, 1947, from the Indian  2(   20 -20 Commissioner to Mr. Boys)  2. 21 21  2;   22 22 (EXHIBIT 3:  Letter dated June 17, 1947, from Mr. Conn to Mr  2;   23 23 Boys)  2>   24 24  2|        25 25 (EXHIBIT  4:     Letter  dated  August  5,   1947,   from  Mr.   Martin  tc  21        26 26 Boys)  2- 27 27  2 28 28 MS.   KOENIGSBERG:  2 29 29 Q Mr. Boys, you received, it would appear, a respons  31   30 30 from — or you made a response to Mr. Martin's let  3 3i 31 which is now marked, I believe, as Exhibit number  3   32 32 this commission, and I'm showing you a document de  3;   33 33 August 14th, 1947, and it's a copy, but do you —  3   34 3 4 you recognize that as a document which you sent?  3   35 35 A  Well, that certainly expresses the reaction I had  3(   36 36 Mr. Martin's letter.  I can't — you know — I car  3- 37 37 positively at this stage — at this stage state, t  3 38 38 it's — my signature isn't on it. It appears to r  3>   39 3 9 been sent out in my name, and it certainly express  40 40 what I intended at the time.  41 41 MR. RUSH:  I'm not taking any objection to it.  42 42 MS. KOENIGSBERG:  Good.  If we can mark that as the next  43 43 exhibit.  That's 5, is it?  44 44  45 45 (EXHIBIT 5   -  Letter  dated August  14,   1947)  46 46  47 47 MS.   KOENIGSBERG: 19  J.V. Boys (for Defendant)  In chief by Ms. Koenigsberg  1 Q  I believe I have correctly described Mr. Martin's  2 letter as having been — to you as having been marked  3 as Exhibit 4, and what is now Exhibit 5 was your  4 response to Mr. Martin?  5 A  Urn hum.  6 Q      And  in  that  letter you express  the view which  you  7 expressed  before looking at  the letter  that  —  8 A      Urn hum.  9 Q  — there was not a problem as far as you were  10 concerned with identifying to which band Indians  11 belonged?  12 A  Right.  13 Q  I'm now showing you a letter dated October 27th, 1947,  14 over the name of a Mr. Gill and addressed to you, and  15 it's our document number 1057 9.  Do you recognize —  16 can you identify that document as a response to you in  17 regard to your correspondence to Mr. Gill?  18 A  I recollect that that was the decision of Mr. Gill,  19 and I see that this — this particular piece of paper  20 has again escaped the office incoming mail stamp  21 but ~  22 Q  I should perhaps put on the record, and to assist you,  23 Mr. Boys, that sometimes documents come out of  24 district files and don't have a stamp.  25 A  I see.  26 Q      And we're  dealing with  those  copies  rather  than  the  27 copy  out  of   the Hazelton  file.  28 A       I  see.     Well   --  29 Q       But   I would   —  30 A      In any  case,   that  is  —  that is  the general   import  of  31 what  the inspector decided  after my appeal  to him to  32 have a  resolution made  of  the problem.  33 MS.   KOENIGSBERG:     Okay.     If we  could  then mark  it as  the  next  34 exhibit,   Exhibit 6   I  believe.  35  36 (EXHIBIT 6   -  Letter  dated October  27,   1947,   from Mr.   Gill   to  Mr.  37 Boys)  38  3 9 MS.  KOENIGSBERG:     I  wonder  if  it would be an appropriate  time  to  40 have a   ten-minute break.  41  42 (PROCEEDINGS   ADJOURNED  AT  11:15   A.M.)  43 (PROCEEDINGS   RECONVENED   AT  11:30   A.M.)  44  45 MS.   KOENIGSBERG:  46 Q  Mr. Boys, we just marked a letter as Exhibit 6 from a  47 Mr. Gill to yourself, and Mr. Gill was in the game 20  J.V. Boys (for Defendant)  In chief by Ms. Koenigsberg  1 division, and this is in the sequence of correspon-  2 dence dealing with trying to sort out the problem of  3 the mapping —  4 A  Urn hum.  5 Q  — and the registration of Indian traplines.  Mr.  6 Gill's letter is acknowledging receipt of a letter  7 from you of October 3rd; is that correct?  8 A  Yes.  9 Q  I'm showing you now a letter dated October 3rd, 1947,  10 and can you identify your signature on that letter,  11 and it appears to be addressed to the game warden in  12 Smithers?  13 A  Yes, that's my signature.  14 Q  And from the contents of that letter can you confirm  15 for us that that is the letter that Mr. Gill is  16 specifically responding to in his letter of October  17 27 th?  18 A      Well,   I  can only presume that —  that a copy  of  my  19 letter  of  October  the 3rd  to the game warden  in  20 Smithers was   sent  to his  inspector.     I didn't —  I  21 didn't   send  one.  22 Q       Okay.  23 A       But  —  24 Q      If  you look at  the  contents,   dealing  first with  your  25 letter  of  October 3rd,   1947,   and  in particular  the  26 fourth   full  paragraph,   if  you would read  that  to  27 yourself.  28 A  Yeah.  I'm making a proposal that — that unregistered  29 areas be registered in the name of the department in  30 trust pending clarification of the individual  31 ownership of the trapline, and Inspector Gill is  3 2 responding to that proposal.  33 Q  And is —  3 4 A  And he says that a trapline cannot be registered  35 except in the trapper's own name.  36 Q  Okay.  37 A  So that my proposal is not acceptable.  38 MS. KOENIGSBERG:  Okay.  Can we then mark as Exhibit number 7  3 9 the letter of October 3rd, 1947?  40  41 (EXHIBIT 7 - Letter dated October 3, 1947, from Mr. Boys to the  42 game warden of Smithers)  43  44 MS.   KOENIGSBERG:  45 Q      I'm now  showing you a letter  dated November 3rd,   1947,  46 to  the  game warden  in Smithers,  and  can you  identify  47 that  document as being  over your  signature? 21  J.V. Boys (for Defendant)  In chief by Ms. Koenigsberg  1 A  Yes, it's over my signature.  2 Q  And are we still dealing with the same problem, and  3 this is your next response?  4 A  Yes.  5 Q  Okay.  6 A  Yes.  7 MS. KOENIGSBERG:  And can we mark then the letter of November  8 3rd, 1947, as Exhibit number 8?  9  10 (EXHIBIT 8 - Letter dated November 3rd, 1947, from Mr. Boys to  11 ~"  the game warden in Smithers)  12  13 MS.   KOENIGSBERG:  14 Q  Now, we've looked at a series of correspondence here,  15 which pertain to the — your attempts to resolve the  16 difficulties set out in your letter, the original  17 letter we were dealing with, marked as Exhibit number  18 1, and in your letter to — reporting to Indian  19 Affairs ~  20 A  Urn hum.  21 Q  — about the state of traplines and mapping and the  22 crest system?  23 A  Urn hum.  24 MS. KOENIGSBERRG:  And I'm showing you a letter — a copy of a  25 letter dated November 10th, 1947.  Just pause for a  26 moment so my friends — this is a letter from Mr. Boys  27 to Mr. Ray Morgan.  Do you have that?  28 MR. RUSH:  Yes.  29 MS.   KOENIGSBERG:  3 0 Q  Okay.  And I would ask you to look at this letter and  31 identify it, if you can, as a letter sent by you,  32 dealing with a specific problem, to Mr. Ray Morgan?  33 A  I can't recollect having written that specific letter,  3 4 but it certainly states the — the attitude that I  35 would take in the case of the descent of property and  36 a first step toward dealing with the estate.  37 MS. KOENIGSBERG:  All right.  And before I ask you any further  3 8 questions, I'll mark that letter as the next exhibit.  39  40 (EXHIBIT 9 - Letter dated November 10, 1947, from Mr. Boys to  41 Mr. Ray Morgan)  42  43 MS.   KOENIGSBERG:  44 Q  Mr. Boys, this letter deals with the disposal of a  45 trapline in the course of dealing with an estate; is  46 that  correct?  47 A       Yes. 22  J.V. Boys (for Defendant)  In chief by Ms. Koenigsberg  1 Q  And in it you — does it accurately reflect the policy  2 that you followed in relation to administering an  3 estate that involved a trapline?  4 A  Yes.  5 Q  And in the second last paragraph it refers to the  6 crest system, and does that paragraph and the  7 following paragraph reflect accurately the policy  8 which you followed as you have described it?  9 A  Yes, that's correct.  10 MS. KOENIGSBERG:  Okay.  If we can just go off the record for a  11 moment so I can assist my friends with what I am doing  12 next.  13  14 (OFF THE RECORD DISCUSSION)  15  16 MR. RUSH:  I understand that you're going to put an estate file  17 to the witness.  You will recall that some — over a  18 year ago now there were certain cautions with regard  19 to estate files that the court prescribed, and subject  20 to those cautions, I — I don't have any problem in  21 putting the documents that he knows and that he can  22 speak to —  23 MS. KOENIGSBERG:  Yes.  24 MR. RUSH:  — to the witness.  25 MS. KOENIGSBERG:  I think — I believe that this file contains  26 no material of the nature that would offend the —  27 MR. RUSH:  Well, you understand that we are concerned and remain  28 to be concerned about confidential matters in any of  29 the estate files.  30 MS. KOENIGSBERG:  31 Q  Yes.  Okay.  32 Mr. Boys, I'm showing you a file labelled  33 "Alexander White."  3 4         A  Urn hum.  3 5        Q  And I'm going to ask you to identify the documents in  36 this file, which were during the currency of your  37 tenure in Hazelton, and I start at the back of the  38 file in order to do that.  And you've already  3 9 described to us that it was your duty to administer  40 estates under the Indian Act and pursuant to the  41 Indian Act; is that correct?  42 A  Yes.  43 Q  And I'm showing you a document which is entitled  44 "Application for Administration or Probate."  45 A  Um hum.  46 MR.   RUSH:     Now,   if  you wouldn't mind  just  showing me  the  47 documents   so I  can  find out where I  am on my material. 23  J.V.   Boys   (for  Defendant)  In  chief by  Ms.   Koenigsberg  1 MS.   KOENIGSBERG:     I   think  if  you look that  far  in you'll  just  2 see  that  the  front  document identifies  it.  3 MR.   RUSH:     Are you asking him to  identify these —  you've got  4 looks  to be about  nine  pages here.  5 MS.   KOENIGSBERG:     That's  right.     Well,   they're copies.     If  we  6 could  just go off   the record for a moment.  7  8 (OFF   THE  RECORD   DISCUSSION)  9  10 MS.   KOENIGSBERG:  11 Q  Do you recognize the Application for Administration or  12 Probate?  13 A      Urn hum,   that  is  the  form  that was  in use at  that  time.  14 Q      Okay.     And  can you identify for us  the documents which  15 follow  that  front  page,  which is about  nine  pages  from  16 the back of   the  file,   entitled  "Application  for  17 Administration or Probate"?  18 A      Urn hum.  19 Q  And if we turn over the page, can you identify for us  20 the documents which follow by —  21 A  Yeah.  22 Q   — by form?  23 A  That was a document that was in use.  And — and also  24 the — the next page.  25 Q  In the administration of the estate would you take  26 down information relating to the deceased's family and  27 their assets?  28 A   Yes.  29 Q  And on the second page of the Application for  30 Administration or Probate is that your signature?  31 A  Yes.  3 2 Q  And you are signing as applicant?  33 A  Yes.  3 4 Q  And would it be part of your duties to ascertain the  35 information which is — which is in this form?  36 A  Urn hum, yes.  37 Q  And from whom would you obtain the information?  3 8 A  From — from the family, from the band council, from  3 9 members of the band, and also by advertising to  40 determine if there were any debts against the estate.  41 Q  Okay.  42 A  That was purely local advertising by way of notices  43 and — in the village and in the post office — the  44 post office that they used and so forth.  45 Q  Okay.  And was it your duty to obtain as accurate  46 information as possible?  47 A  Oh, yes. 24  J.V. Boys (for Defendant)  In chief by Ms. Koenigsberg  1 Q  The next document appears to be an affidavit?  2 A       Yes.  3 Q       And you  took  this affidavit?  4 A       Yes,   that's my signature.  5 MS.   KOENIGSBERG:     Can  you  —  6 MR.   RUSH:     You're referring to a  document which  is headed   "In  7 the  Matter  of   the Estate  of  Alexander White,  8 Deceased"?  9 MS.   KOENIGSBERG:      Yes.  10 MR.   RUSH:     Top line  —   it appears  to contain a  signature  of   Mr.  11 Boys  on  the bottom left.  12 THE  WITNESS:      Yes.  13 MS.   KOENIGSBERG:      Yes.  14 MR.   RUSH:     Yes.  15 MS.   KOENIGSBERG:  16 Q  Can you describe that document?  17 A  Well, it's an affidavit that — concerning the death  18 of Alexander White.  19 MS. KOENIGSBERG:  If I can just be of assistance, in this file,  20 and I'll have to go forward for this, to identify this  21 document, I'm showing you the will or a will, and it's  22 in this file both handwritten and then there are a  23 couple of typed versions of that will, and can you  24 read  —  25 MR.   RUSH:     Would you  just   show  me what you're  showing  to  the  26 witness?  27 MS. KOENIGSBERG:  It's just in front of the application.  28 MR. RUSH:  Thank you.  29 MS.   KOENIGSBERG:  30 Q  Can you make out the witnesses?  31 A  Yes, one is — one is Fritz Harris and Joseph C. — I  32 think it's Neale.  33 Q  Okay.  And they are designated as the witnesses of  34 this will?  3 5         A  Yes.  36 Q  And was it part of your duty in administering the  37 estate to obtain an affidavit of the witnesses?  3 8        A  Yes.  3 9        Q  And if we go back to this document —  40 A  That's an affidavit that they were the witnesses —  41 Q  All right.  42 A  — to the will.  43 Q  Okay.  And then just in this file the next documents  44 following the affidavit of the witnesses appears to be  45 a copy, another copy of the same document that we've  46 just been looking at, the application — in the  47 Application for Administration or Probate of the 25  J.V. Boys (for Defendant)  In chief by Ms. Koenigsberg  1 deceased family —  2 A  Um hum.  3 Q  — and assets?  4 A  Yes.  5 MS. KOENIGSBERG:  Okay.  Going forward in the file from the  6 application for administration, we find another will.  7 Can you identify that will?  8 MR. RUSH:  Now, show me what you're showing to the witness.  9 MS. KOENIGSBERG:  The will of Mary White.  10 MR. RUSH:  Thank you.  11 MS.   KOENIGSBERG:  12 Q      This would appear  to be a will  of  the wife of  13 Alexander White?  14 A  Um hum.  Well, I can't identify it.  15 Q  And if such a document existed in an estate which  16 you — of which you would have responsibility for  17 probate, would you gather in such documents?  18 A  Yes.  19 Q  And keep them in the relevant estate file?  20 A  Yes.  21 MS. KOENIGSBERG:  Now, we've looked for, for purposes of  22 identifying the affidavit of witnesses, a will — a  23 handwritten will, and I'm looking again at the will of  24 Alexander White.  25 MR. RUSH:  The handwritten one?  26 MS.   KOENIGSBERG:  27 Q  Yes.  Can you recall if it was normal in the course of  28 carrying out the administrative functions in your  29 office in Hazelton to have a handwritten document  30 typewritten for ease of reference or any other reason?  31 A  Oh, yes, we would make a typewritten copy of a  32 handwritten will.  33 Q  And after the copy of the handwritten will we find in  3 4 this file a copy of a — that handwritten will  3 5 typewritten?  And it would be normal to keep that in  36 the file?  37 A  Yes.  Yes.  3 8 MS. KOENIGSBERG:  Now, the next document I'm showing you, going  39 forward in the file, is a letter from — dated March  40 16th, 1950, from yourself to the department.  41 MR. RUSH:  Yes.  Thank you.  42 MS.   KOENIGSBERG:  43 Q  And can you describe that?  Can you identify that  44 letter first?  45 A  Well, I can identify the signature of Mr. Appleby, who  46 was my assistant at the time.  And he probably was the  47 author of this particular letter on my behalf — 26  J.V. Boys (for Defendant)  In chief by Ms. Koenigsberg  1 Q  Okay.  2 A  — forwarding the documents, completed documents, to  3 the department asking for probate of the estate.  4 Q  All right.  And does this letter reflect the  5 appropriate route for —  6 A  Yeah, that's normal procedure, yes.  7 Q  And I'm showing you another document dated July 10th,  8 1950 — I believe it is from a Mr. Allen — which  9 would appear on its face to be responding to your  10 application for probate; is that correct?  11 A  Um hum.  12 Q  Okay.  You've said um hum, and you have to say yes or  13 no —  14 A  Oh, yes.  15 MS. KOENIGSBERG:  — so it could be recorded.  16 MR. RUSH:  I accept that as a yes.  17 MS.   KOENIGSBERG:  18 Q  And the receipt and the granting of probate would also  19 be a document which you would keep in your estate  20 file —  21 A  Yes.  22 Q  — in the normal course?  23 Now, the subsequent documents in this file — the  24 very next document that we see is a band — appears to  25 be a band council resolution.  I would — it's dated  26 December, and I can't read the number, 1949.  It  27 would — it would appear to be the 16th or the 18th.  28 Can you recognize that document and, in particular —  29 A  Yeah, my signature, yes.  It's confirming ownership of  30 the Alexander White estate to a parcel of land in the  31 Kispiox Reserve, and I — some of the reserves at that  3 2 time had not been surveyed into individual parcels and  33 the parcels designated by lot numbers, so evidently  3 4 Kispiox was among those bands that had not been so —  3 5 Q  And —  36 A      —  subdivided.  37 Q      Can you recall what  the purpose  of  this document was?  3 8 A      Well,   it was  to  confirm the  ownership of  Alexander  3 9 White  on  that  particular  parcel  of  land  on  the Kispiox  40 Reserve at  the  time  of  his  death.  41 Q      Okay.     And you would obtain  such  a resolution  from the  42 relevant band —  43 A       Yes.  44 Q      — in an estate —  45 A      Yes.  46 Q      —  if  the  estate was  dealing with  an allotment  of  a —  47 of  a  parcel   of land  on a reserve? 27  J.V. Boys (for Defendant)  In chief by Ms. Koenigsberg  1 A  Yes.  2 Q  The next letter on file, and this particular file is  3 dated September 16th, 1957, and you were no longer  4 active in Hazelton at that time?  5 A  No.  In fact, this letter was received by my — oh,  6 I'm not sure what that is.  I thought that was Mr.  7 Jutras' signature, but maybe it isn't.  He was my  8 immediate successor in Hazelton.  Marcel Jutras,  9 J-u-t-r-a-s.  10 MS.   KOENIGSBERG:     I  will  not  ask  you  to identify  the   subsequent  11 documents,   as  they  are all  dated  some  time after you  12 left,   but   I  would ask  that  the Alexander White  file be  13 marked as   the next exhibit with all  of  the documents  14 in  it  subject  to  the  identification of  the  subsequent  15 documents  in  the  course  of  — of  the keeping  of   files.  16 In other words,   as  far  as  I'm concerned,   the balance  17 of   the documents  are  the  subject of  other identifi-  18 cation  for   admissibility as  part of  this  file through  19 other witnesses  or  other means.  20 MR.   RUSH:     So what you're  saying  is  that you're going  to attempt  21 to prove  the balance of   this  file by  some  other  22 witness  at  a later  time?  23 MS.   KOENIGSBERG:     We may,   or we may  rely  on  other ways  of  24 obtaining  admissibility.     We happen  to be able to —  25 to identify more  specifically certain documents  in  26 this  file,   and  that may affect  their weight  or not.  27 MR.   RUSH:     Well,   I'll   tell you what  I would prefer,  and I would  28 prefer   that  the  documents  that have been  identified by  29 Mr.   Boys  be marked,   and  then  if you want  to  in  30 addition  to  that mark  the  rest  of  the  file  for  31 identification,   I  don't  —  it doesn't matter  to me,  32 but  I  think  there  should be  some way  of  distinguishing  33 between  those  that he has  identified and  those which  34 he hasn't because  if  at  the  end of  the day you find  3 5 that you  are  not — you have no interest in proving  36 the rest  of   the  file,   or  for  some reason you can't  37 prove  the rest of   the file,  we know what has been  3 8 proved and what hasn't been and we're not kind of  39 trying  to  scramble  around.     I mean,   if you wanted  to  40 take one  exhibit number  and  do  it A,   B,   C or whatever,  41 I —  it's  just that I think we  should be certain about  42 what Mr.   Boys has  identified.  43 MS.  KOENIGSBERG:     I  have no difficulty with  that.     I wonder  if  44 we can mark  it as — well,   let's  just  go off  the  45 record for  a moment.  46  47 (OFF   THE  RECORD  DISCUSSION) 28  J.V.   Boys   (for  Defendant)  In  chief  by Ms.   Koenigsberg  1  MS.  2  3  4  5  6  7  MR.  8  MS.  9  MR.  10  11  MS.  12  MR.  13  14  MS.  15  MR.  16  MS.  17  MR.  18  MS.  19  20  21  22  23  MR.  24  MS.  25  26  27  MR.  28  29  MS.  30  31  32  33  MR.  34  35  MS.  36  MR.  37  38  MS.  39  40  MR.  41  MS.  42  43  44  45  46  47  KOENIGSBERG:     If we can then mark the  entire  file labelled  "Alexander White," and  it  is  the Attorney General   of  Canada's  document number 1429,   for  identification,   so  that would be Exhibit  10  for identification.     And  within  that  file I would  like to mark as  exhibit  — do  you  think  10A  so  that we know where to  find  it?  RUSH:     That's  fine,   yes.  KOENIGSBERG:     10A,   the  first  document.  RUSH:     Do you want  to  start at  the back and work  forward  in  time?  KOENIGSBERG:      Yes.  RUSH:     So you've got really  the document that's  called  Application for  Administration  or Probate.  KOENIGSBERG:     Yes.  RUSH:     Comprising  of  —  KOENIGSBERG:     Well,   I   can  identify.  RUSH:     —  nine  pages.  KOENIGSBERG:     All  right.     That's easier.     A number  of  those  are  specifically —  I mean,   each of  those,   except  for  the  copies,   are  specifically  identified,  but we can  just  mark   that as  Exhibit  A.     The  second,   Exhibit  10B  would be  the Last Will  and Testament  of  Mary White.  RUSH:     And  that  is  three  pages.  KOENIGSBERG: Yes. The next document is IOC. It is the  handwritten will of Alexander White, and it is one  page.  RUSH:     All  right.     Now,   I have  two pages on what appears  to  be a handwritten will  dated  April 18,   1946.  KOENIGSBERG:     You're quite  right,   it  is.     And  following  that  in  the  file  one,   two,   three pages,  which  are  typewritten  copies  of  the handwritten will  of  Alexander White in varying  stages of  decipherability.  RUSH:     I might  say I  take  some gratification that others  have difficulty  in photocopying,   small gratification.  KOENIGSBERG:      Yes.  RUSH:     So the  typed pages of  Alexander White will,   three  in  number.  KOENIGSBERG:     Yes.     10D will be  the letter of  Mr.   Boys  to  Ottawa  asking  —  RUSH:     10E.     10D was  the  typewritten one.  KOENIGSBERG:     Yes.     10E will  be  the letter from Mr.   Boys  to  the Department  of  Indian Affairs dated March 16th,  1950,   requesting probate — application for probate.  10F  is  the letter  of  a Mr.   Allen to Mr.   Boys dated  July 10th,   1950,   granting probate.     And  the last  document  identified by Mr.   Boys  is the band  council  resolution dated December 1949,  which Mr.   Boys  took r  29  J.V. Boys (for Defendant)  In chief by Ms. Koenigsberg  1 the affidavit — or was the witness rather of the  2 Kispiox Band Council.  3  4 (EXHIBIT 10 FOR IDENTIFICATION - File labelled "Alexander  5 White")  6  7 (EXHIBIT 10A - Application for Administration or Probate)  8  9 (EXHIBIT 10B - Last Will and Testament of Mary White)  10  11 (EXHIBIT IOC - Handwritten Will of Alexander White)  12  13 (EXHIBIT 10D - Typewritten Will of Alexander White, three pages)  14  15 (EXHIBIT 10E - Letter dated March 16, 1950, from Mr. Boys to  16 the Department of Indian Affairs)  17  18 (EXHIBIT 10F - Letter dated July 10, 1950, from Mr. Allen to  19 Mr. Boys)  20  21 (EXHIBIT 10G - Band Council Resolution dated December 1949)  22  23 MS.   KOENIGSBERG:  24 Q  Now, before we marked the actual estate file of  25 Alexander White, we were dealing with estates and  26 administration of them with particular regard to  27 traplines, and we looked at the correspondence  28 regarding the problems and your attempts to resolve or  29 to start the resolution of those problems.  Maps are  3 0 referred to as having been inadequate to the  31 purpose —  32 A  Um hum.  33 Q  — at the time?  3 4 A  Yes.  3 5 Q  What, in your view, was the importance of the maps?  36 A  Well, the map demonstrated the area that was covered  37 by the trapline.  There was a description of the  3 8 trapline, and that description was translated on to  3 9 the map, and from that it was possible to determine  40 whether or not there were areas not registered as  41 /     traplines.  And each trapper, incidentally, was  42 J      provided with a copy of a tracing from the map showing  43 t ,  I      his particular area.  I might say that a number of the  44 I      Indians, many of them, had difficulty in interpreting  45 jf      the map to their own area on the trap ground.  46 /   Q  All right.  And how would you deal with that when — I  47 |       assume that an individual Indian would come into your 30  J.V. Boys (for Defendant)  In chief by Ms. Koenigsberg  1 office —  2 A  Um hum.  3 Q  — and apply for a trapline?  4 A  Um hum.  5 Q  How did you deal with them?  6 A  Well, I would attempt to take him to a point of  7 reference.  If it was north on the telegraph trail,  8 for instance, to — the last ranch or habited place  9 was Beirnes Ranch, as it was known, and then take him  10 north from there to what he knew as a particular  11 creek, and then I would point out on the map that that  12 line represents that creek.  It's coming down off the  13 mountain, and it's flowing into the Kispiox River or  14 whatever.  And now we go north from there, and the  15 next creek is such and such a creek, and that is that  16 line on the map, and I would attempt that way to  17 interpret to them what the map represented on the  18 ground.  19 Q  And would the Indian attempt to tell you the places  20 that he or she knew on the ground as being within the  21 area that they were requesting?  22 A  They would possibly tell me where their winter camp  23 was because they would go out from a base camp and run  24 a particular trapline to — maybe to the north on one  25 day and to the west on another day, and they would  26 point out to me or attempt to point out to me where  27 their base camp was.  28 Q  All right.  And then you would take the information —  29 A  Um hum.  3 0 Q  — ascertained from this conversation between you and  31 the Indian —  32 A  Um hum.  33 Q  — and send it to the game department?  34 A  Yes.  In a few instances I was actually on the ground,  3 5 but not in a great number of them when I was in the  36 Hazelton Agency.  In — when I was in Telegraph Creek,  37 where I was also acting for the game branch, I was in  3 8 effect the game warden as well as everything else, and  3 9 there I visited many, many trappers actually on their  40 traplines.  41 Q      Now,   you've  described  for  us  some of  the  competing  42 ways of  registering a  trapline,  and  I'm here referring  43 to heirs at  law under  the Indian Act versus  say  the  44 crest  system as  it was being described  to you,   and  45 you've — were  there different ways  in which  traplines  46 were registered  either  to individuals,   families  or  47 corporations,   or  in other ways? 31  J.V. Boys (for Defendant)  In chief by Ms. Koenigsberg  1 A  There were — there were company traplines.  There  2 were company traplines, groups of individuals who had  3 traplines.  There were band traplines.  There was a  4 trapline, for instance, that was held in the name of  5 the Kitwancool Band and not broken down, and it was my  6 aim to break these down into individual family  7 traplines.  8 Q  Why was that?  9 A  Because it's not possible to administer the estate  10 with respect to the holding on a trapline unless it is  11 broken down into one individual holding.  12 Q  All right.  Did you have any other reason for that?  13 A  Well, in a number of instances the trapline — the  14 trapline that had been originally held as a company  15 c. trapline was very often a group of people from  16 different bands, in other words, members of a crest,  17 and the — the holding on a benefit of a trapline on  18 the death of one or other of these did not derive to  19 the immediate family.  So —  20 Q  Did that problem — did that present to you as a  21 problem?  22 A  Yes, it was a problem in administering estates.  23 Q  Yes.  And did you ever have anyone come to your —  24 come to your office and require your assistance?  25 A  Yes, I — I tried to induce as many Indians as  26 possible to make a will and state exactly what they  27 '     wished done with their holdings, including their  28 i  trapline holdings.  And again, I — I want to explain  29 that this was not a problem among the Carrier Indians  30 in the eastern part of the agency because they didn't  31 have this — this company or group holding.  It was  32 not a part of their — their way of life.  33 Q  Okay.  Did you meet with resistance in your  3 4 attempts —  35 A  Yes.  36 Q  — to do this?  37 A  Yes.  3 8 Q  Can you describe that?  3 9 A  Well, there were those who objected on the basis that  40 they felt that they should derive a holding in a  41 trapline through the crest system rather than by way  42 of descent through administration of an estate.  And I  43 think one of the — one of the documents that I  44 identified here expresses —  45 Q  I'll move these over for you.  46 A  — to somebody — is it the Morgan one?  47 MR.   MACKENZIE:      Exhibit   9. 32  J.V. Boys (for Defendant)  In chief by Ms. Koenigsberg  1    THE WITNESS:  I said:  2  3 "We take no cognizance of your Crest system  4 so the sooner your people agree to abandon  5 it the better it will be for the  6 administration of your Indian affairs.  7 If you will assist in determining who are  8 the heirs of this estate and if they will  9 turn the trapline over to you then there can  10 be no objection from a legal standpoint."  11  12 And there were a number of cases of that type of  13 conflict.  14 MS.   KOENIGSBERG:  15 Q  Okay.  Were there Indians that you dealt with who  16 requested that — that you administer it according to  17 the Indian Act?  18 A  According — oh, yes, the younger ones were the  19 most — wished it to be administered according to the  20 Indian Act.  21 MS. KOENIGSBERG:  I'm showing you now a handwritten letter.  It  22 is a handwritten letter dated November 25th, 1946.  It  23 appears to be addressed to you from a George Moore.  I  24 would ask if you received —  25 MR. RUSH: Just a moment, please.  Thank you.  26 MS.   KOENIGSBERG:  27 Q  I would ask if you received that letter?  28 A  Yes, the agency stamp is on that letter.  29 Q  And I'm also showing you a letter, and I'm going to  30 ask you to review it.  But before you do that, Mr.  31 Boys, I'm showing you a letter dated December 2nd,  32 1946, which appears to be a copy of a letter from you  33 to Mr. Moore?  34 A   Yes.  3 5 Q  And can you tell us if this letter from you to Mr.  36 Moore is a response to Mr. Moore's letter?  37 A  It appears to be, yes.  3 8 Q  And just before we mark those, there is some  3 9 handwriting on the bottom of the letter from you to  40 Mr.   Moore?  41 A       Um hum.  42 Q       Do you recognize  that?  43 A      That's written —  that's  in the handwriting of  Mr.  44 Coleman,   the inspector  of  Indian agencies.  45 Q       All  right.     And do you recall  if  that handwriting was  46 on  this letter when you — while you were in Hazelton  47 or was  it  —  and you've  seen  it  there? 33  J.V. Boys (for Defendant)  In chief by Ms. Koenigsberg  1 A       No.  2 Q       All   right.  3 A      No,   I  don't —  it wasn't  on  there when the letter was  4 sent.  5 Q       Right.  6 A       I would  think  immediately  subsequent  to that I was  7 absent  from  the agency,  and  Mr.   Coleman was  — was  in  8 charge  for  a month  or  two.  9 MS.   KOENIGSBERG:     Okay.     If we  can  just mark   these  two letters  10 as  the next  two exhibits  in  sequence,   the November  11 25th,   1946,   letter  first,  and Mr.   Boys'   letter  of   the  12 2nd of  December,   1946,   as  the next  two exhibits,   and  13 then  I'll  ask you  some questions about  them.  14  15 (EXHIBIT 11   - Letter  dated November  25,  1946,   from G.   Moore  to  16 Mr.   Boys)  17  18 (EXHIBIT 12 - Letter dated December 2nd, 1946, from Mr. Boys to  19 G. Moore)  20  21 MS.   KOENIGSBERG:  22 Q  Okay.  Could you just take a moment and review the  23 letter of -- from Mr. Moore to yourself?  24 A  Um hum.  25 Q  First I should just ask you, do you recall this event  26 at all after — after reviewing this correspondence?  27 A  No, not specifically, I'm afraid.  28 Q  Okay.  Referring to the letter —  29 A  I do recall that Mrs. Harris had a trapline south of  30 the Skeena River, but 1 don't recall this particular  31 claim to it.  32 Q  All right.  33 A  But it was a claim.  3 4 Q  Yes.  If you would just describe then the letter as  3 5 you understood it?  36 A  Well, it's a claim.  37 MR.   RUSH:     Well,   he  doesn't recall   it,   and doesn't  the letter  38 just  speak  for itself?  3 9 THE WITNESS:     Yes,   I  think  it really does,   actually.  40 MS.   KOENIGSBERG:  41 Q  Well, all right.  When you responded in your letter of  42 December 2nd, 1946, does that response reflect the  43 basis upon which — does it reflect the carrying out  44 of the policies which you have described?  45 A  Yes.  46 Q  And did you have any knowledge of the way in which  47 Mrs. Harris received the trapline which you're 34  J.V.   Boys   (for Defendant)  In  chief  by Ms.  Koenigsberg  1 referring  to in your  letter of December 2nd?  2 A      No,   I —  I  can't recollect  that I had any  specific  3 knowledge  of  how  she  came by  it.  4 MS.   KOENIGSBERG:     Okay.     It's  12:30,   and perhaps we  should  have  5 the  lunch break.  6  7 (PROCEEDINGS   ADJOURNED  AT   12:30   P.M.)  8 (PROCEEDINGS   RECONVENED   AT   2:00   P.M.)  9  10 MS.   KOENIGSBERG:  11 Q  We're resuming the commission evidence of Mr. Boys  12 following the noon adjournment.  Mr. Boys, I'd like to  13 refer you back briefly to your letter of October 3rd,  14 1947, to the game warden in Smithers, and it is now  15 Exhibit 7 on your commission, and in the fourth  16 paragraph, if you will just review that, you make  17 reference in the last line to the policy of  18 registering or de-registering traplines if an Indian  19 became enfranchised.  Do you see that?  20 A  Um hum.  21 Q  Could you tell us what was the policy with regard to  22 enfranchisement and the holding of registered  23 traplines?  24 A  Well, in the case of an Indian who wished to be  25 enfranchised, and there were not too many of them, but  26 there was — there was a number of them during a  27 particular period in the latter 1940's for some  28 reason — I don't know why — and our policy was to  29 hang on to all Indian registered traplines for the  30 benefit of Indians at all costs, and so if an Indian  31 applied for enfranchisement, in his application we  32 embodied an undertaking to relinquish his trapline,  33 his Indian trapline in favour of another Indian.  3 4 Q  And what would be the effect of enfranchisement on the  35 holding of a registered trapline, as far as you were  36 concerned, that would be of concern to you?  37 A  Well, he — if he accepted that undertaking, it was  3 8 relinquished, he gave up the registered trapline.  3 9 Q  Why would his enfranchisement — why would you want  40 him to relinquish the trapline just because of  41 enfranchisement?  42 A  If he took it with him as a non-Indian, he would be in  43 a position to sell it to some other non-Indian, and it  44 would be lost to the Indians as a whole probably  45 forever.  46 Q  And I'm showing you a letter from a Mr. Gill to  47 yourself dated November 17th, 1947, and I would ask if 35  J.V. Boys (for Defendant)  In chief by Ms. Koenigsberg  1 you received that?  2 A  Yes.  3 MR.   RUSH:     What's  the  letter,   please?  4 MS.   KOENIGSBERG:     November  17th,   1947,   Mr.   Gill   to Mr.   Boys.  5 MR.   RUSH:     Thank  you.  6 MS.   KOENIGSBERG:  7 Q  And does that letter respond to the concerns that you  8 were placing before the game department —  9 A  Um hum.  10 Q  — the game division regarding enfranchisement?  11 A  Um hum.  12 Q  And what was the response of the game department to  13 Indian Affairs' policy?  14 A  Well, they suggested that in the original registration  15 that we make that proviso that should the registered  16 holder become enfranchised, that he would forfeit the  17 trapline in favour of another Indian.  Up until this  18 period the question of enfranchisement didn't seem to  19 have raised its head to any extent, and I don't know  20 for what reason, except that there was something of a  21 migration of Indians starting into cities in some —  22 some cases to take specific work opportunities, and in  23 those cases the holder of a trapline would — would  24 really have no further use for it in — in any case.  25 Q  Did the solution which you proposed to the  26 potential -- to the de-registration, if you will, of a  27 enfranchised Indian solve the problem?  28 A  Yes, I think so.  29 MS. KOENIGSBERG:  Could we mark this letter of November 17th,  30 1947, from Mr. Gill to Mr. Boys as the next exhibit?  31 I believe that will be 13.  32  33 (EXHIBIT 13 - Letter dated November 17, 1947, from Mr. Gill to  3 4 Mr. Boys)  35  36 MS.   KOENIGSBERG:  37 Q  The next document I would like you to look at is a  38 letter dated December 17th, 1947, from yourself to the  3 9 Indian Commissioner.  If you can identify that as a  40 letter you sent?  41 A  Yeah, I — that's a letter I wrote.  42 MS. KOENIGSBERG:  We can mark it as the next exhibit, and then I  43 will ask you a couple questions about it.  44  45 (EXHIBIT 14 - Letter dated December 17, 1947, from Mr. Boys to  46 the Indian Commissioner for B.C.)  47 36  J.V. Boys (for Defendant)  In chief by Ms. Koenigsberg  1 MS.   KOENIGSBERG:  2 Q      You,   at  the  time you wrote  this letter,   had been  in  3 Hazelton for a little over  a year;   is  that  correct?  4 A  Yes.  5 Q  And you're reporting to the commissioner on — well,  6 maybe you should describe to us the state of the — of  7 your duties at Hazelton as you're reporting them  8 there?  9 A  Well, I was reporting to the commissioner in Vancouver  10 a problem with respect — that I outlined this  11 morning — with respect to finding conformity in the  12 maps that I was using to describe areas applied for  13 for the registration of traplines, conformity with the  14 trapline maps in the office — the offices of the game  15 branch, whose responsibility it was to register these  16 traplines.  And a number of my applications were  17 coming back because the submissions I made, taken from  18 tracings of the maps in my office, didn't conform to  19 the detail on the maps in the offices of the game  20 wardens to whom I sent them.  My request to the  21 commissioner in this letter was to get me some  22 up-to-date maps so that I could get on with the job,  23 and he would have to get those from Victoria.  24 Q  Okay.  And would it be accurate to say in relation to  25 this, what you're saying in this letter, that — that  26 the — your concerns and what you were doing with  27 regard to traplines had taken up a considerable amount  28 of your time in the first year that you were in the  29 Hazelton area?  30 A  Yes, I devoted all the — all the time I could give to  31 it, yes.  32 MS. KOENIGSBERG:  Okay.  We have some large linen maps, and  33 maybe it would be appropriate at this time to ask you  3 4 to have a look at them.  And, in particular, in  35 relation to the kinds of mapping difficulties that  36 you've described, if you can assist us — and we're  37 going to have to roll these out on the floor and kind  3 8 of stand around and talk about them.  3 9   MR. RUSH:  I think you should identify them by the number.  40 MS.   KOENIGSBERG:     I  will.  41 MR.   RUSH:     And the  sequence  that you're going to refer  Mr.   Boys  42 to.  43 MR. WOLF:  These are two copies of Map 17A.  44  45 (OFF THE RECORD DISCUSSION)  46  47 MS.   KOENIGSBERG: 37  J.V.   Boys   (for  Defendant)  In  chief by  Ms.   Koenigsberg  1 Q      We're looking at  some large linen maps,   and  I  2 identify,   for  the record,   the  two maps  that we're  3 going  to be —  there are  two maps we're going  to be  4 looking  at,  and  the  one  that we're now looking  at  is  5 identified as  17A.     You've given  some evidence,   Mr.  6 Boys,  about maps which were in your  office and which  7 lacked  some  specificity,   and looking at Map  17A,   do  8 you recognize  this map as  being  either  one  that you  9 recall   seeing  or  similar?  10 A      It's  similar  to maps  that we had on — on  file in  the  11 office,   yes.  12 Q      You've had a  chance  to look at this briefly  13 beforehand,   and  there is quite a lot  of writing  on  14 this map really  all  over  the map.     Do you recognize  15 any  of   that writing  as being yours?  16 A       No.  17 Q  Is it fair to say that you would be unable to identify  18 a map such as this as being one that you in fact had  19 looked at and worked with unless it had your writing  20 on it?  21 A      Yes,   it's  —  I wouldn't know whether  this was  from my  22 office,   or  from the police  office,   or  from the game  23 warden's  office,   or where  it  might be from.  24 Q      Okay.     The maps  that you had  in your  office were large  25 linen maps with lines and writing on  it like  this?  26 A       Exactly   similar  —  27 Q       Okay.  28 A  — to this, same scale.  29 Q  Would it be — was it likewise that maps which you  30 received from the game department from time to time,  31 either at your request or for your information, would  32 also look like this?  33 A  Yes.  3 4 Q      And you've mentioned that you were aware,   and  I  3 5 believe  it's  in your letter  of  —  in  Exhibit  13,   that  36 you understood  that  the police,   the provincial  police  37 department —  I  think  it was  the  provincial  police  3 8 department —  39 A       Yes.  40 Q      — had maps  also?  41 A       Yes.  42 Q  And any maps which you saw coming from that source or  43 saw in their offices, did they also look like this  44 map?  45 A  Yes, they did.  46 MR.   MACKENZIE:     That's  Exhibit  14.  47 MS.   KOENIGSBERG:     I'm  sorry,   I'll   just  jump across here and   tell 38  J.V. Boys (for Defendant)  In chief by Ms. Koenigsberg  1 you.  Yes, it is Exhibit 14.  Off the record for a  2 minute.  3  4 (OFF THE RECORD DISCUSSION)  5  6 MR. RUSH:  Could I ask — we're on record now?  7 MS.   KOENIGSBERG:      Yes.  8 MR. RUSH:  Could I just ask as a matter of clarification at this  9 point whether the maps in the B.C. Police office that  10 you referred to were at the time that you were the  11 Indian Agent in — in Hazelton?  12 THE WITNESS:  Yes, the -- the B.C. Police at that time were  13 responsible for the criminal law in British Columbia.  14 They hadn't been taken over by the R.C.M.P., and they  15 had an office in Hazelton, as did the R.C.M.P.  They  16 were — the R.C.M.P. also maintained a detachment  17 there.  Their responsibilities were mainly, as well,  18 doing work on Indian reserves and I think applications  19 for naturalization and such like, federal.  20 MR. RUSH: Jurisdiction?  21 THE WITNESS:  Federal laws.  22 MS. KOENIGSBERG:  23 Q  Okay.  Now, you described that there were some  24 difficulties in ascertaining trapline areas because of  25 inadequate or little or no surveying done in some of  26 the  areas  —  27 A       Right.  28 Q  — within your jurisdiction.  Does this map  29 demonstrate that?  30 A  Yes.  31 Q       The map we're  looking  at,   17A?  32 A       There are —  there are areas here.     If you look at  the  33 Thomas Wright  &  Company,   there is absolutely no  3 4 detail.     There is  no —  there is no way of  determining  3 5 whether  there were any mountains or rivers or  —  there  36 is  no detail  in  there whatsoever.     There are  no  37 contours,   there  is no  creeks  sketched in,   so  it's   just  3 8 a  blank  area.  3 9 Q       Okay.     And let's look at  the next —  the map —  the  40 next map we have here.     This map has a notation  on  it,  41 "17A Telkwa."    It would appear  on  its  face  to cover  42 the  same area as the map we were just looking at,   17A;  43 is  that  correct?  44 A       Yeah.  45 Q  It shows the Skeena River coming down almost in the  46 middle of the map?  47 A   Yeah. 39  J.V. Boys (for Defendant)  In chief by Ms. Koenigsberg  1  Q  2  3  A  4  Q  5  6  A  7  Q  8  9  A  10  Q  11  A  12  13  Q  14  15  A  16  Q  17  18  A  19  Q  20  21  A  22  Q  23  A  24  Q  25  A  26  Q  27  28  A  29  Q  30  A  31  Q  32  33  34  35  36  37  A  38  39  40  41  Q  42  A  43  Q  44  A  45  46  47  Q  And a large number of district lots are in along the  Kispiox River?  Yes.  And  those  are  the  same as on  the 17   — or  Map 17A;   is  that  correct?  Well  --  Without saying that those district lots are exactly  the same numbers or anything.  They appear to be the same, yes.  Okay.  They're probably  Crown-granted mineral  claims  for  the  most  part.  The —  the  map that we're now  looking at also has a  considerable amount  of writing on it all  over  the map?  Yes.  Have you had a chance to look it over and to see if  you could identify any of the writing as yours?  No, I don't see any of my printing on that map.  And you would have no other way of telling us what  the — where this map came from?  No, I wouldn't.  We have one more map that we can review.  There is some detail —  Okay.  — added in there.  All right.  The witness was just pointing to an area  just above —  Two lakes.  Okay.  Just let me —  A bend in the river.  Okay.  Let me just identify.  The witness is  indicating an area just above the middle of the word  "Kispiox" in the designation of — the written  designation of the Kispiox River, where there is some  lines and circles.  And go ahead and say what you were  saying.  I'm just saying that apparently somebody has added  some lines which would appear to indicate two lakes  connected to the Kispiox River by separate creeks, and  then there is more of same beyond that.  Okay.  But —  If —  But I can't — I can't recognize that map.  I mean,  it's not — it's not one that — on which I made any  notations.  But it was on such a one as this — 40  J.V. Boys (for Defendant)  In chief by Ms. Koenigsberg  1  A  2  Q  3  A  4  Q  5  A  6  Q  7  A  8  9  Q  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  A  18  Q  19  20  21  A  22  Q  23  24  25  26  27  A  28  29  Q  30  31  32  A  33  Q  34  A  35  Q  36  37  38  A  39  40  41  Q  42  43  44  A  45  46  Q  47  Yes.  — that you did make notations —  Yes.  — during your tenure there?  Yes.  Okay.  This is the — I referred this morning to the Beirnes  Ranch, and that's it.  That is the —  All right.  On exhibit — or on Map 17A designation  Telkwa the witness is pointing about the middle of the  map on the very bottom to a written designation that  says "G.M. B-e-i-r-n-e-s."  And on the maps which you  dealt with, which were similar to this, were there the  names of individuals who had registered traplines in  the area such as, looking in the middle of 17A Telkwa,  Moses Nii Kyap, and just above that Kathleen Morrison?  There were similar notations, yes.  And when an Indian applicant for a trapline would come  into your office, you would have such a map as this  spread out in front of you?  Um hum, yes.  And it would be in that context of having this — a  map like this in front of you and a request for a  trapline area that you would attempt to engage in the  conversation that we discussed this morning about  where a trapline should be located?  Right, try to identify the exact area that the  applicant was seeking to have registered.  Okay.  And in so doing, Mr. Boys, would you make  notations on a map such as this, writing down  information that the Indian might give you —  Um hum.  — or that you might give the Indian?  Yes.  And so there may be some maps with your handwriting  and notations of information about locations within a  trapline area?  Yes.  You see, with particular reference to the ones  that you mentioned, there is a very good reference  point here.  We all knew the Kuldoe Reserve.  Okay.  The witness has just pointed to a rectangle  which is on the Skeena in the northern — on the  northern part of this map.  It's also on the Yukon telegraph line.  There —  second cabin on there is Kuldoe Reserve.  And it is designated Kuldoe Ind., Indian, Reserve in  printing just above the rectangle being referred to. 41  J.V. Boys (for Defendant)  In chief by Ms. Koenigsberg  1 Okay.  And you would use a reference point like that?  2 A  Yes.  If somebody was seeking to have a trapline on  3 this particular creek —  4 Q  Okay.  5 A  — we might start from — either from second cabin,  6 which was a refuge cabin of one of the linemen on the  7 Yukon telegraph line, or else from the Kuldoe Reserve,  8 which — the Yukon telegraph line was a maintained  9 trail all the way up, and that was where pack trains  10 would travel or in the wintertime the trappers might  11 go out with — on snow shoes, and some of them in that  12 area would probably have a dog team, and they would go  13 up there and set up their camp, then start trapping  14 from — getting back into their territory from the  15 Yukon telegraph line.  16 MS. KOENIGSBERG:  Okay.  If I could just stop you there for a  17 moment.  The witness indicated on the map "this  18 creek," and the creek that he pointed to is labelled  19 on this map Kwisk Shakangaski, and it is spelt  20 K-w-i-s-k capital S-h-a-k-a-n-g-a-s-k-i.  Something  21 like Wii minosik, I guess.  22 MR. RUSH:  There were no Russians in that area.  At that time  23 anyway.  24 MS.   KOENIGSBERG:     Perhaps  some Polish  people.  25 THE WITNESS:     I  don't  think   that  far   south at any  time.  26 MS.   KOENIGSBERG:  27 Q  I notice on this map that there is a notation, and I'm  28 pointing to an area which would appear to be a  29 trapline area ascribed to Henry Aluk, A-l-u-k.  And  30 within the red described boundary of this area on this  31 map is a notation that says, "Loohandilgun," that's  32 L-o-o-h-a-n-d-i-l-g-u-n, "Hunting Ground." Were such  33 notations on maps that you recall?  3 4 A  Not that I recall.  3 5 Q  Would you have designated an area with reference to an  36 Indian name with hunting ground on it?  37 A  Probably not, unless the individual Indian who held  3 8 the trapline told me that that was a — a local name  3 9 for something that we might call the Cranberry  40 Mountain.  He might refer to it as that Indian name  41 hunting ground.  42 Q  And if so, you might write in such a designation?  43 A  Well, I might on our own map in pencil, but since our  44 maps from time to time were compared with the — the  45 game department's maps, I wouldn't leave anything on  46 my map that would complicate their problems.  So —  47 you know — if it wasn't essential, I wouldn't leave 42  J.V. Boys (for Defendant)  In chief by Ms. Koenigsberg  1 it  on there.  2 Q       At  the  top of  —  toward  the  top of  this map and on  the  3 left-hand  side,  which  I  guess  is  the western  side —  4 A  Yes.  5 MS. KOENIGSBERG:  — the top of this map being north, there is  6 some writing in pencil.  It says, "Morrison, Robert &  7 Company," with a line through it, and then it says,  8 "Cancelled," and then it's period, "Left vacant  9 pending readjustment."  And above the "Left vacant" is  10 the word written "Dead." Would such a notation have  11 any meaning to you?  12 MR. RUSH:  Are you saying does that notation have any meaning?  13 MS.   KOENIGSBERG:  14 Q        Yes.  15 A  I don't recall.  I don't recall anything specifically  16 about that notation, no.  17 Q  And would such a notation be consistent with your  18 understanding of some of the problems with  19 unregistered trapline areas?  20 A  Would you mind —  21 Q  Yes, let me read it to you.  22 A  — rephrasing that question again?  23 Q  It has, "Morrison, Robert & Company," then that's  24 crossed out and it says, "Cancelled.  Left vacant,"  25 and above that is, "Dead," and then, "pending  26 readjustment."  27 A  Well, that notation is stuck in the middle of a very  28 large area that is not apparently covered on this map  29 by any registration of trapline.  You see, there is a  30 whole area in there.  31 Q  Yes.  3 2 A  So it really doesn't make — have much meaning so far  33 as I'm concerned.  3 4 Q  In your correspondence you referred to the problem  3 5 of — of after Indians were deceased they — large  36 tracts of land appeared to be left unregistered?  37 A  Um hum.  3 8 Q  Would this be a designation that you might have seen?  3 9 A  I don't recollect seeing anything of that nature on  40 any map that I had in my possession, no.  41 Q  Okay.  And we just have one more map here.  Maybe  42 we'll deal with this, and then we'll figure out how  43 we're going to mark these.  I'm showing you another  44 linen trapline map or another linen map, and on it  45 there is a green stamp, which I read as saying —  46 A  Babine Indian Agency, is it?  47 MR. RUSH:  Hazelton, B.C. 43  J.V. Boys (for Defendant)  In chief by Ms. Koenigsberg  1 THE WITNESS:     Yes.  2 MS.   KOENIGSBERG:  3 Q  With all that help, it's Babine Indian Agency,  4 Hazelton, B.C.  Would that indicate that this map  5 belonged to your agency?  6 A  Yes.  Yes.  7 Q  And also on the back of this map it says, "77 10/L,"  8 meaning trapline?  9 A  Um hum.  10 Q   "Moricetown Band"?  11 A  Um hum.  12 MS. KOENIGSBERG:  Can we go off the record for a second?  13  14 (OFF THE RECORD DISCUSSION)  15  16 MS.   KOENIGSBERG:  17 Q  Looking, Mr. — looking at the trapline map that we  18 have in front of us, designated as the Moricetown Band  19 with a number 77 on it, it shows, going through the  20 middle part of it, the Morice River?  21 A  Um hum.  22 Q  Just for organizing ourselves in terms of orientation  23 here —  24 A      The north-east  corner  is the Bulkley River.  25 MR.   MACKENZIE:     There's  Houston.  26 MS.   KOENIGSBERG:  27 Q       With  Houston  --  28 A       Houston.  29 Q  — in the upper right-hand corner sort of north-east?  30 A  Um hum.  31 Q  And there is some blueprinting on this map over in the  32 eastern part.  There is the the name Alfred and then  33 Peter?  3 4 A  Um hum.  3 5 Q  And then moving south and westerly from Alfred, Peter  36 is George, Joseph?  37 A  Um hum.  3 8 Q  And then moving southerly from George, Joseph, south  39 and west, that is Lattie, Dick?  40 A  Yes.  41 Q  Just below that Lattie, Dick, and to the east, south  42 and east, is Joseph George & Company?  43 A  Um hum.  44 Q  There is —. there is also some blueprinting in the  45 northern central area of this map that says Williams,  46 Mrs. Margaret and above that to the north of that  47 Dennis Little.  Do you recognize that printing? 44  J.V. Boys (for Defendant)  In chief by Ms. Koenigsberg  1 A  I think that the printing was made by my assistant,  2 Bill Appleby.  3 Q  Okay.  And he was in the Hazelton Agency —  4 A  Yes.  5 Q      —  of  course when you were  there?  6 Do you  recall   the  time period  that he was  there?  7 A       I  think he  arrived about  the latter part  of  1948  or  8 maybe in 1949.     He was  still   there when I left in  9 1951.  10 Q  Okay.  And there is some other writing on this map.  11 There is handwriting in what appears to be pencil?  12 A  Yes.  13 Q  And it appears to say?  14 A  "Supposed to belong to Jim Holland."  15 Q  All right.  That's in the southwesterly part of this  16 map.  And then just to the east of the "Supposed to  17 belong to Jim Holland" is some other writing.  Can you  18 read that?  19 A  "Supposed to belong" — "Supposed to belong to  20 Mathew" ~  21 Q  Sam.  22 A  — "Sam only inside blue line."  23 Q  And there is a faint blue line —  24 A   Yes.  25 Q  — surrounding that writing?  26 A  Yes.  27 Q  And do you recognize that handwriting?  28 A  Well, I think that handwriting belongs to Mr.  29 Mallinson.  I think he was the author of those.  There  30 are more of them here.  31 Q  You've just pointed to two more areas with the same  32 handwriting in pencil —  33 A  Yes, down.  3 4 Q  The very most southern — southerly writing in the  3 5 south-west of this map.  And can you read that?  36 A  "Supposed to belong to Tyee, David," in brackets "has  37 own trapline," "and John Baptiste," etcetera.  3 8 Q  And then there is some further writing just —  39 A  Yes.  40 Q  Just to the north of the writing you just have read to  41 us is some more, and can you read that?  42 A  "Supposed to belong to Tyee, David and John Baptiste.  43 Also Gordon Hall, Jessie Alex and Charlie Williams."  44 Q  And then there is some more writing of a similar type  45 to the extreme west —  46 A  Yes.  47 Q      —  of  the area  that you've just —  that we've just 45  J.V. Boys (for Defendant)  In chief by Ms. Koenigsberg  1 been looking at, and can you read that?  2 A  It says, "Supposed to belong to Jimmy Thomas."  3 Q  Okay.  And all of that writing that begins with  4 "Supposed to belong to" you believe is Mr.  5 Mallinson's?  6 A   Yes, I think so.  7 Q  And what — Mr. Mallinson was your predecessor —  8 A  Yes.  9 Q  — as Indian Agent at Hazelton?  10 A  Um hum.  11 Q  And do you have any knowledge if he attempted to  12 designate trapline areas on maps like this?  13 A  Oh, it would be part of his duties to do so.  14 Q  Yes.  15 A  Yes.  16 Q  And were there maps like this with writing on them in  17 the Hazelton office —  18 A  Yes.  19 Q  — when you arrived?  20 A  Yes.  21 Q  And unfortunately on this map we see none of your  22 writing?  23 A  No.  24 MS.  KOENIGSBERG:     Okay.     Now,   if we  could mark  these  three maps  25 that we've been —  that we have referred  to.     I  think  26 they  should be marked as  exhibits  as —  as  the maps  27 identified  in  the way  they've been identified by  this  28 witness.     It goes without   saying that  they're not  in  29 for  the  truth  of   their  contents but rather as — for  3 0 the  information which he  can  identify.     So the  first  31 map,  which was  17A,  would  be Exhibit 15,   17A Telkwa  32 would be 16,   and 77  Moricetown Band with  the blue  33 stamp on  it  of  the Babine Hazelton office will be  17.  34  3 5 (EXHIBIT  15   -   Map   17A)  36  37 (EXHIBIT 16   -  Map  17A  Telkwa)  38  3 9   (EXHIBIT 17 - Map 77, Moricetown Band)  40  41 MR.   RUSH:     There were  three  trapline maps  that were introduced  42 in  the  evidence of  Mr.   Sterritt,  and based on the  43 evidence  that's been given by Mr.   Boys,   I would assume  44 that  if   those maps were  to be  shown to Mr.   Boys  that  45 similar  evidence would be  forthcoming  from Mr.   Boys,  46 and  I  don't have  those maps here.     But  I would like  to  47 determine  if both  defendants  can get  instructions  to 46  J.V. Boys (for Defendant)  In chief by Ms. Koenigsberg  1 accept the fact that such evidence would apply in a  2 similar vein to those maps and to have those maps  3 accepted as exhibits in the proceedings.  As you will  4 recall, they've been exhibited for identification, and  5 I think that Mr. Boys' evidence, while not going to  6 the question of the truth of the contents of the  7 statements contained thereon, it certainly goes to the  8 question of the identification of similar-type maps  9 held in his office at the time of Mr. Boys' residence  10 in Hazelton as the Indian agent, so I am asking you to  11 make a determination of that, otherwise I'm going to  12 have to put these maps to Mr. Boys.  13 MS. KOENIGSBERG:  Okay.  Okay.  We'll certainly investigate if  14 we can have them so identified.  If we can just go off  15 the record for a moment.  16  17 (OFF THE RECORD DISCUSSION)  18  19 MS.   KOENIGSBERG:  20 Q      We've  talked about  the registering of  traplines  21 focusing  on  the problems with mapping —  22 A       Um hum.  23 Q  — and the way in which you would deal with it, and I  24 would like to show you a trapline file and ask you if  25 you can identify this file as one that you actually  26 can identify or similar to the kinds of files that you  27 might have kept or did keep in Hazelton.  And I'm  28 showing you a file, Attorney General of Canada — it's  29 number 4514.  It's Walter Blackwater —  30 A  Um hum.  31 Q  — furs, trapping on the front.  The first document in  32 this file that I would ask you to look at is an  33 Application for Registration of a Trapline.  It's a  3 4 pink document, a pink slip, with a — a partial white  3 5 overlay with typing on it.  36 A  Um hum.  37 Q  Do you recognize this — such an application as an —  3 8 A  Yes.  3 9 Q  — Application for Registration of a Trapline?  40 A  Yes.  That's a provincial form.  41 Q  Yes.  And would you be involved in filling out such a  42 form —  43 A  Yeah.  44 Q  — for an Indian in your office in the course of your  45 duties?  46 A  Yeah.  47 Q  Do you recall doing such a thing on behalf of Walter 47  J.V. Boys (for Defendant)  In chief by Ms. Koenigsberg  1 Blackwater?  2 A  Specifically, no, I don't.  I can't say I do.  And I  3 notice that the — the form was signed for me by Mr.  4 Appleby.  5 Q  Okay.  6 A       And also  signed by  —  apparently signed by Walter  7 Blackwater.  8 Q  All right.  And was it your — was it part of the  9 delegation of duties by you to Mr. Appleby that he  10 fill out such a form and take the signature of an —  11 of an Indian for an Application for Registration of a  12 Trapline?  13 A  Yes.  14 Q  This one is dated June 4th, 1951, and of course you  15 were still Indian Agent at that period?  16 A  Yes, for one more month, I think.  17 Q  Now, with regard to this trapline file, there are a  18 large number of documents in it.  Did you attempt to  19 set up a system for filing documents of this sort?  20 A  Um hum.  21 Q  And if you would look through this file and tell us if  22 the documentation which is in this file is the type of  23 documentation that you would designate should be kept  24 in a trapline file?  25 A  Oh, yeah.  I think this is a — this is a trapline  26 that we bought.  I do recall it now.  I think this is  27 one that we bought from a non-Indian on behalf of a  28 particular Indian.  29 Q  Okay.  In this case, Walter Blackwater?  30 A  Walter Blackwater, yeah.  I think there had originally  31 been an agreement with the game department and the  32 federal government department responsible for the  33 Dominion telegraph line between Ashcroft and through  3 4 Hazelton, and north through Telegraph Creek and Atlin  3 5 to Dawson, that the linemen who were resident on the  36 telegraph trail and responsible for keeping the trail  37 clear and keeping the line intact, that those linemen  3 8 should be given a trapline of, I believe, one mile on  3 9 either side of the telegraph line trail to trap as  40 they went about their patrols for maintaining the —  41 the telegraph line.  And this appears to be one of  42 those — one of those lines that was originally given  43 to a lineman.  And at a later date the line — but  44 first sections of the line were abandoned because  45 radio telegraph was used instead, and so the linemen  46 were taken off, and when that — when that area,  47 trapping area, became available, it was offered for 46  J.V. Boys (for Defendant)  In chief by Ms. Koenigsberg  1 sale by the registered trapper, and in this particular  2 instance I'm not sure if the person from whom we  3 purchased it was a lineman, but, anyway, it was  4 registered in the name of a non-Indian, to the best of  5 my recollection, and we attempted to purchase it and  6 achieved that on behalf of a specific Indian, in this  7 case Walter Blackwater.  8 Q  Do you have any recollection of why — of how it was  9 determined that Walter Blackwater would be the person  10 that this trapline would be purchased for?  11 A  I don't specifically, except that probably he applied  12 for a trapline and — no, I — I don't recollect  13 specifically  why.  14 MS.   KOENIGSBERG:     Okay.     Now,   we've been looking  at  a  document  15 which was  in  this  file,   and  it is a  sketch  of   the  16 trapline  that you've been  describing.     It  says  on  it,  17 "Louis  J.   Gelly Trapline,   R.M.  38C."  18 MR.   RUSH:     Is  this  the  one?  19 MS.   KOENIGSBERG:  20 Q       Yes,   that's  the  one.  21 This  sketch  shows a   trapline which appears  to be  22 relatively  narrow and  to follow directly  the  telegraph  23 trail;   is   that   correct?  24 A       Correct,   yes.  25 Q       And  is  that  consistent with  the  evidence  that you've  26 just  given?  27 A       Yes.  2 8 Q  And do you have any knowledge of the derivation of  29 this sketch, who might have sketched it or —  30 A  It probably was sketched — I think from the printing  31 it was probably sketched by Mr. Appleby.  32 MS. KOENIGSBERG:  Okay.  Now, also in this file — let's back  33 up. First, let's mark as the next exhibit the  3 4 Application for Registration of a Trapline, the pink  35 one.  36 MR.   RUSH:     Isn't  that  an  exhibit  somewhere already?  37 MS.   KOENIGSBERG:     Okay.     Go off   the record for a  second.  38  3 9 (OFF   THE  RECORD  DISCUSSION)  40  41 MS.   KOENIGSBERG:     If  we  can mark  that as  Exhibit 18.  42  43 (EXHIBIT 18  - Application  for Registration of  a Trapline,   pink  44 copy,   found in A.G.   of  Canada's  document  4514)  45  46 MS.  KOENIGSBERG:     If  we could then mark as the next  exhibit,  47 Exhibit 19,   the  sketch  that we've been  referring  to 49  J.V.   Boys   (for  Defendant)  In  chief by  Ms.   Koenigsberg  1 that you believe has  Mr.   Appleby's writing on  it  or  2 printing.  3 MR.   RUSH:     He didn't  say  that.     He didn't  say  that.     He  said he  4 thought  it was  probably Mr.   Appleby's,   but he didn't  5 identify  any  of  the  printing or  anything on  it.     But  6 maybe you want  to ask  him that.  7 MR.   MACKENZIE:     He  said by  the  printing.  8 MS.   KOENIGSBERG:     I   thought he   said by  the printing  it was  9 probably,   which  I  took  to believe — but,   okay,   let  10 me —  11 THE WITNESS:     I believe  that  that  is  Mr.   Appleby's  printing.  12 MR.   RUSH:      I   see.  13 THE WITNESS:  I believe that I recognize it as such.  14 MR. RUSH:  Okay.  15 MS. KOENIGSBERG:  If that could be marked as Exhibit 19, and  16 that is the sketch that says, "Louis J. Gelly  17 Trapline," and has the outlined red trapline area, a  18 narrow strip following the telegraph trail.  19  20 (EXHIBIT 19 - Sketch labelled "Louis J. Gelly Trapline")  21  22 MS.   KOENIGSBERG:  23 Q       Also  in the Walter Blackwater  file,   trapline  file,  24 were  two  other  sketches  —  25 A       Um hum.  26 Q  — or maps that I'm showing you.  And looking at the  27 smaller of the two pieces of paper with maps on them,  28 on the lower right-hand side is a designation  29 "Hazelton, B.C., February 2nd, 1954, Trapline  30 Registration, Blackwater, Walter," and then a latitude  31 and longitude of — R.M. 38C, and then latitude,  32 longitude of trapline.  In the middle of that sketch  33 it says, "Blackwater, Walter & Company." The  3 4 designation on this sketch is after your tenure in  35 Hazelton —  36 A  Um hum.  37 Q  — is it not?  3 8 But do you recognize that sketch as encompassing  39 the Walter Blackwater trapline which you applied for  40 on his behalf?  41 A  Yes, it covers the area that was applied for and a  42 great deal more in addition.  43 Q  Okay.  Can you assist us as to why this sketch would  44 encompass more area than the one that you applied for?  45 A  Well, when an application is sent in with a tracing  46 from a map applying for an area, it goes to the game  47 department and through their channels, and eventually 50  J.V.   Boys   (for  Defendant)  In  chief  by  Ms.   Koenigsberg  1  2  3  4  5  6  ,  7  Q  8  A  9  10  11  12  13  Q  14  15  16  17  18  A  19  Q  20  A  21  22  Q  23  A  24  Q  25  26  A  27  Q  28  29  30  31  32  A  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  Q  40  41  42  43  A  44  Q  45  A  46  47  Q  they  will   return a corrected map of what they  feel  should  embody  the whole  trapline,  and one of  the —  one  of  the  objectives  of  the game department  at  that  time was  to include  the whole watershed of any creek  within an --  an area  applied  for  up to the height  of  land,  and as you can  see on  this map —  And you're  referring  to the —  I'm referring to  the  Hazelton,   B.C.,  February 2nd,  1954,  map.     This map  includes the —  the whole  watershed  of  all  of  these  creeks and all  of  these  creeks,   and  this dotted line  on the map represents  the  height  of land.  And  it was  your  experience with  the game department  during   the  time  that you were  there,  in reference  to  sketches  or   tracings  of  areas  that you would  send  to  them with an application  for a  trapline,   that  they  would  expand an area  to  include  the watershed —  Yes.  — to a height  of land?  Yes.     If   that  didn't  conflict with anybody  else's  already  registered trapline —  All  right.  — that would be  their procedure.  I  don't  know  if you  can assist  us with  the  second  sketch.  Well,   this  one —  And we're  looking at  now  another  sketch,  which  appears  to be  similar  to but  not exactly  the  same as  the  sketch which has  the designation   "Hazelton,   B.C.,  February 2nd,   1954,"  on  it.     Can you help us with  identifying  that?  Well,   again,   this appears  to have the printing of  Mr.  Appleby  on  it.     And  it was  the practice  to make a  copy  of  the —  of  the registered area  as  designated by  the  game branch and provide a  copy of  that  to the  registered holder of  the  trapline and probably  to make  another  copy  of  it and put  it on  the file of  the —  on  the  trapper's  file in our  office.  All  right.     And in looking  at these two sketches,  what  is noticeable about  them  is that  they do not appear   to  be photocopies,  but  they appear  to be hand-done  copies —  Yes.  — is that  correct?  I would  suggest  that  this  appears  to be a  tracing  of  that with  --  Let me just put on the record what this is a tracing 51  J.V. Boys (for Defendant)  In chief by Ms. Koenigsberg  1 of that is.  2 A  Of ~  3 Q  The — the copy of a map which is the larger of the  4 two pieces of paper and does not have the typewritten  5 designation "Hazelton, B.C., February 2nd, 1954," on  6 it is the map which you believe to be a tracing of the  7 map —  8 A  Yes.  9 Q  — which has "Hazelton, B.C., February 2nd, 1954," on  10 it; is that correct?  11 A  Yes.  12 Q  Okay.  Go ahead, please.  I interrupted you to  13 identify this.  14 A       No.     Well,   I  don't  think  there's much more I  can   say  15 about  it.     There is   somewhat less detail  on  the  16 tracing  than on the map received from  the game branch.  17 MS.  KOENIGSBERG:     All  right.     Okay.     Could we mark as  the next  18 two exhibits  — as  Exhibit  number 20  the map with  the  19 designation   "Hazelton,   B.C.,  February 2nd,  1954,"  20 etcetera,   and  then Exhibit  21 would be  the map which  21 has been  identified as a   tracing  of  the  Hazelton,  22 B.C.,  February  2nd map.  23  24 (EXHIBIT 20  -  Map with  the designation   "Hazelton,   B.C.,  February  25 2nd,   1954,   Trapline Registration Blackwater,  26 Walter")  27  28   (EXHIBIT 21 - Tracing of Exhibit 20)  29  30 (PROCEEDINGS ADJOURNED AT 3:15 P.M.)  31 (PROCEEDINGS RECONVENED AT 3:30 P.M.)  32  33    MS. KOENIGSBERG:  3 4 Q  Now, Mr. Boys, you told us that you purchased this  35 trapline and then Walter Blackwater ended — you  36 purchased it for Indian Affairs?  37 A  Um hum.  3 8 Q      Let  me back  up and ask you  if  that's what you said.  3 9 Do you recall   if you purchased  this  trapline for  40 Walter Blackwater  or you purchased it  for  Indian  41 Affairs and Walter Blackwater  ended  up with it?  42 A      Oh,   I  don't recall.     I  think  it was  purchased as  a  43 result  of  an application  from Walter Blackwater  for  44 that  particular  area,   so  I would presume that we  45 purchased  it for him.     I'm not  sure of  that.     You  46 know,   I'm a bit hazy about  that at this point.  47 MS.   KOENIGSBERG:     I'm  showing you a  letter dated January 31st, 52  J.V. Boys (for Defendant)  In chief by Ms. Koenigsberg  1 1951, from yourself addressed to Mr. Walter  2 Blackwater, and I ask you to read that and tell us if  3 that is a letter which you would have sent to Mr.  4 Blackwater?  5 MR.   RUSH:    What's  the  date again,   please?  6 MS.  KOENIGSBERG:     It's January 31st,   1951.     It's  toward  the very  7 back  of   the   file.  8 MR.   RUSH:     Yes.  9 THE WITNESS:  Yeah, that sounds — that indicates that I  10 dictated.  There is an initial down in the corner,  11 which indicates that I dictated the letter.  12 MS.   KOENIGSBERG:  13 Q       And you're referring  to  the  "JVB"  in capital  letters  14 on  the bottom left-hand  corner?  15 A       Um hum.  16 Q  Do you recall who BMH was, the next initials?  17 A  No, it might have been Barbara Harris.  I'm not sure.  18 MS. KOENIGSBERG:  Okay.  If we can then mark — we can mark a  19 copy.  20 MR. WOLF:  Okay.  21 MS.   KOENIGSBERG:     We'll  mark as  Exhibit 22  this letter  of  22 January 31st,   1951.     I'm just going to ask you another  23 question about  it after we mark  it.     If  nobody has  any  24 objection,  we'll  mark a photocopy.  25 MR.   RUSH:     That's  fine.  26  27 (EXHIBIT 22  - Photocopy  of  a letter  dated January 31,   1951,   from  28 Mr.   Boys  to Walter  Blackwater)  29  30 MS.   KOENIGSBERG:  31 Q       You've  told  us  — we've described the  trapline,   which  32 you did purchase and which — for which Mr.   Walter  33 Blackwater  applied,   as  the Louis Gelly  trapline,   and  34 this letter would  confirm  that;   is  that  correct?  3 5                      A       Yes,   um hum.  36 Q       And  this letter   sets  out   some terms upon which  it was  37 being  purchased.     Were  those  the  terms,   to your  3 8 knowledge?  3 9 A      The proposal  was  that we would put  up the necessary  40 funds  to purchase  it and  that he would in  the  course  41 of  time refund  that  out  of  — out  of  the  fur  that he  42 took  off  the  trapline.  43 Q       And I'm showing you a  document headed  "Agreement,"  44 dated February 5th,   1951,   and do you recognize  that  45 document?  46 A  I recognize the signature of Mr. Appleby on that  47 document. 53  J.V. Boys (for Defendant)  In chief by Ms. Koenigsberg  1 Q  Okay.  And would it have been in the course of his  2 duties that he would have witnessed such a document?  3 A  Yes.  4 Q  And does that agreement accord with your understanding  5 of the terms?  6 A  Yes.  7 MS.   KOENIGSBERG:     If  we  could mark  the agreement as  the next  8 exhibit.     We'll  mark   the  original.     We're just looking  9 for  a  copy  of   the agreement.     There it  is.     That  can  10 be marked  as   the  next  exhibit.     It will  be Exhibit  23.  11  12 (EXHIBIT 23   - Photocopy  of  Agreement  dated February 5,  1951)  13  14 MS.   KOENIGSBERG:  15 Q  I'm showing you a document dated February 12th, 1951,  16 to Mr. Arneil, Indian Commissioner for B.C., and it  17 appears to be over your name?  18 A  Um hum.  19 MS.   KOENIGSBERG:     And  if  you would  review  that  document briefly  20 and  see  if you  can identify  it.  21 MR.   RUSH:     Date  again,   please?  22 MS.   KOENIGSBERG:     February 12th,   1951.     It's a  two-page letter.  23 MR.   RUSH:      Yes.  24 THE WITNESS:     Yes,   I   would   —  25 MS.   KOENIGSBERG:  26 Q  The — yes.  27 A  — suggest that I wrote that letter or dictated that  28 letter, and it expresses the intent of the agreement  29 to purchase the trapline on behalf of Walter  30 Blackwater and have him pay — repay for it out of his  31 catch in due course.  32 Q  Okay.  And would this letter accord — the contents of  33 this letter accord with your knowledge of the  3 4 circumstances of the trapline?  35 A  Yes.  36 Q  And the location of adjacent traplines which are  37 expressed in here?  3 8 A  Yes.  3 9 MS. KOENIGSBERG:  Okay.  Mark that as the next exhibit.  40  41 (EXHIBIT 24 - Letter dated February 12, 1951)  42  43 MS.   KOENIGSBERG:  44 Q  I'm showing you a document dated the 2nd of May, 1951,  45 again over your signature.  46 A  Um hum.  47 Q  And just in front of that document in the file is a 54  J.V. Boys (for Defendant)  In chief by Ms. Koenigsberg  1 general receipt dated June 2nd, 1951.  2 A  Um hum.  3 Q  And do you recognize these documents as — as  4 demonstrating that the purchase of the trapline was  5 effected?  6 A   Yes.  7 Q  And the — the receipt is —  8 A  That's — that's a fee for transferring the trapline  9 from Mr. Gelly to — to Walter Blackwater & Company.  10 Q  Okay.  And it says, "Received from J.V. Boys for  11 Walter Blackwater & Company $2.50"?  12 A  Um hum.  13 Q       And you would have paid  $2.50  on Mr.   Walter  14 Blackwater's behalf —  15 A   Presumably.  16 Q  — for this transfer?  17 A   Yes.  18 MS.  KOENIGSBERG:     Okay.     If we could mark those  two documents,  19 the letter dated May 2nd,   1951,  as Exhibit 25,  and  the  20 receipt  Exhibit 26.  21  22   (EXHIBIT 25 - Photocopy of a letter dated May 2nd, 1951)  23  24   (EXHIBIT 26 - Photocopy of general receipt number 7 2136)  25  26 MS.   KOENIGSBERG:  27 Q  Okay.  Those are all the documents from that file.  28 Now, in your evidence thus far, Mr. Boys, we've talked  29 about the — your function in relation to  30 administration of estates, a great deal of your time  31 being spent at least in the initial year of your  32 tenure in Hazelton in dealing with traplines, both in  33 terms of registration and preserving them, and in  34 terms of administration of estates.  You mentioned  3 5 that you were involved with the Indian people in  36 relation to fisheries, but specifically at the coast.  37 Could you tell us what your knowledge is of the  3 8 fishing habits, as you were involved, of the people  3 9 under your jurisdiction, the Indian people?  40 A  Well, so far as the people resident along the Skeena,  41 the Gitksan people, the majority of those people  42 habitually went to the coast in the late spring, and  43 they went as a whole family.  The men went down, and  44 they went to different canneries that were then  45 functioning at the mouth of the Skeena.  And there  46 were, as I recollect, five different canneries.  And  47 these different — these various families from 55  J.V. Boys (for Defendant)  In chief by Ms. Koenigsberg  1 different reserves went to the same cannery year by  2 year, and they had — they had duties to perform when  3 they got down there.  The men very largely were used  4 in repairing boats and preparing them for the gill-  5 netting season.  These were almost all gill-net boats,  6 two-men boats that were handled with a small inboard  7 motor on them, and they were not — they were not  8 suitable for fishing in the open ocean, but only in  9 the estuary of the river.  10 Q  Okay.  Now, what you're now telling us, is that  11 something that you had described to you or did you  12 observe it yourself?  13 A  That's something that I know from my own personal  14 observation because I went down from time to time and  15 saw them at work.  I saw them — I saw the women at  16 that time repairing the nets and preparing the nets  17 for the upcoming season, also preparing the fish-  18 processing area.  And the womenfolk would be engaged  19 in the processing of the fish when the season opened,  20 and the menfolk were bringing in the — the fish.  So  21 I saw this myself when I went down.  And I saw  22 numerous people from my own agency down there and —  23 and also the cannery operators, and I have a fairly  24 good firsthand knowledge of what went on.  And they  25 stayed down there until — the final run would  26 probably have been the chum salmon and the — oh —  27 probably early October, the end of September or early  28 October, and after that they would start coming back  29 to the villages.  30 Q  Okay.  Were you involved in dealing with the — any  31 fishing that took place on the Skeena itself or the  32 Kispiox River at designated fishing sites?  33 A  Well, there were reserves specifically set aside on  3 4 the — on the — both the Skeena, and the Bulkley, and  35 the Kispiox River and the Babine River, particularly  36 where there was an eddy in the river, which would lend  37 itself to the Indian method of fishing.  The Indians  38 had traditionally used that.  I think it might be  3 9 interesting to note that in the — the latter part of  40 the nineteenth century, when there was an influx of  41 non-Indians into the province and it was seen that  42 some lands that had been traditionally used by the  43 Indians were in danger of being staked or taken by  44 non-Indians, that it was decided to reserve those  45 lands for the benefit of the Indians.  And commissions  46 were sent out — you're probably quite well aware of  47 this, but I make this point.  Commissions were sent 56  J.V. Boys (for Defendant)  In chief by Ms. Koenigsberg  1 out to different areas of Canada, one to the  2 Maritimes, and one to Upper and Lower Canada, and one  3 to the Northwest Territories, and the Prairies, as we  4 know them, and a separate one to British Columbia, and  5 all of the commissions that came out, with the  6 exception of the one to British Columbia, for the most  7 part designated a large area, and they more or less  8 shepherded the Indians on to that area.  So we have  9 huge Indian reserves in the majority of Canada.  There  10 are a total, I think, of a little over 2,200 reserves  11 in Canada and, of those, 1,630 of them are in British  12 Columbia, and that's because in British Columbia  13 the — the commission took note of all of the lands  14 that had been traditionally used for a specific  15 purpose, and so we have some residential reserves  16 where their villages had been, and not far away we  17 have a timber reserve, where there was a particularly  18 good stand of cedar, which they needed for building  19 and so forth.  And they would have burial reserves,  20 and these fishing reserves that I spoke of earlier  21 that were situated in just a small upland area above  22 an eddy in the river.  So we find a number of those up  23 in the Skeena, Moricetown, or Bulkley, Babine River  24 areas.  25 Q  Okay.  You then told us about the fishing activities  26 as you were involved in them.  What other areas did  27 you deal with in — during your tenure that directly  28 impacted on the way of life of the Indians?  And I  29 would refer you, for instance, to education.  30 A  Well, at that time all of the — practically all of  31 the Indian education was provided through the  32 Department of Indian Affairs.  There were schools at  33 Kitwanga, Kitseguecla, Hazelton, Kispiox, and Glen  3 4 Vowell.  There was a school at Moricetown and schools  3 5 at — a school at Fort Babine.  And during the time  36 that I was in Hazelton, I met with the school board at  37 Terrace, who had jurisdiction in Hazelton, and we  3 8 entered into an agreement whereby the first joint  3 9 school in the province was opened in Hazelton.  40 Q  By joint school you mean white children and Indian  41 children?  42 A       Yes,   yeah.     And we — we estimated the number  of  43 children,   of  Indian and  non-Indian children,   a  44 proportion of   each  that would be there,   and we divided  45 both  the — well,  we divided  the capital  costs  of  46 building a  suitable structure,   acquiring the land and  47 building a  suitable  school,   prorated on  that  i 57  J.V. Boys (for Defendant)  In chief by Ms. Koenigsberg  1 proportion.  And we also paid a per capita rate to the  2 school board equal to what the non-Indian population  3 would pay through school taxes.  And that school  4 opened in — in Hazelton — I can't tell you exactly  5 what year, but it was during my term of residence  6 there.  7 Q  Were residential schools still a part of the education  8 scene —  9 A  Yes.  10 Q  — when you were in Hazelton?  11 A   Yes, yes.  12 Q  What use was made of those, to your knowledge?  13 A  Well, if there were some families possibly — possibly  14 the families who were likely to be away from their  15 home village for a long time, who would make  16 application to have their children sent to one.  Then  17 there were children — then there were children who  18 came perhaps from broken families, who often were  19 orphaned and for whom no satisfactory guardian could  20 be found, and these children were sent to residential  21 schools.  22 Q  During your time in Hazelton was there an impact of  23 the policy of the Department of Indian Affairs with  24 regard to education on the — on trapping, for  25 instance, as a way of life?  26 A  Yes.  Obviously when a trapper went out and his wife  27 went with him and assisted him, they took the children  28 with them, and the children didn't get any schooling,  29 so this was discouraged because it was — it was hoped  3 0 that all the children would get a reasonably good  31 education.  It was certainly not feasible to send them  3 2 all to a residential school, but as I said, some did  33 go.  But during my tenure in Hazelton the family  3 4 allowance legislation was put into effect in  35 parliament, and when family allowances were  36 introduced, the suggestion was made that only if the  37 children were attending school regularly would they  3 8 receive family allowance, and in order to — where  3 9 there were sizable families and the amount of family  40 allowance would be sizable, then families did make  41 some adjustment, and somebody stayed home and looked  42 after the children while they attended school.  There  43 was a considerable increase in the school attendance  44 after that proposition was introduced.  45 Q  To your knowledge, was there an impact one way or the  46 other on the number of families that trapped in  47 relation to the policy that — with regard to 58  J.V. Boys (for Defendant)  In chief by Ms. Koenigsberg  1 attending  school?  2 A      It's difficult  to  judge because actual  trapping was  an  3 on-again,   off-again  thing.     If  there had been a  4 particularly good fish  run and a  particularly good  5 year  of  income  from fishing,   then  there wouldn't be  6 the  same attention  to trapping in the wintertime  that  7 there would  be in a  lean year of  fishing.     I  think  8 families  enjoyed  —  or  trappers enjoyed getting  out  9 for what  they   termed  the beaver hunt in  the  spring  10 during  the break-up,   and  they tended to go out  at  that  11 time,  but   some  families,   if  the fishing year  of   the  12 previous   summer had been a good fishing year,   there  13 wouldn't be as many leave  the village  to go  trapping.  14 MS.   KOENIGSBERG:     Maybe we  should break for  the  day.  15  16 (PROCEEDINGS   ADJOURNED  AT   4:00  P.M.)  17  18 I hereby  certify  the foregoing  to be  19 a  true and accurate  transcript  of   the  20 proceedings herein to the best  of  my  21 skill  and ability.  23 -C^* *-"~r~*>     W/v^Ufa   24 Leanna Smith  25 Official Reporter  26 United Reporting Service Ltd.  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47


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