Delgamuukw Trial Transcripts

Commision Evidence of Jefferay Vincent Boys Vol. 2 British Columbia. Supreme Court Nov 2, 1988

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 <3ln tl|2 Supreme Court of ^rtttslj Columbia  Na 0843  Smithers  Registry  VICTORIA, B.C.  NOVEMBER 2, 1983  BETWEEN  DELGAMUUKW, also  suing on his own  of all other members of  DELGAMUUKW, and others,  know as KEN MULDOE,  behalf and on behalf  the HOUSE OF  AND:  Plaintiffs  HER MAJESTY THE QUEEN IN RIGHT OF  PROVINCE OF BRITISH COLUMBIA and  THE ATTORNEY-GENERAL FOR CANADA,  THE  Defendants  COMMISSION EVIDENCE OF 0EFFE3AY VINCENT  BOYS  Hill  UNITED]  PEPCRTlNGi  UNITED REPORTING SERVICE UD., 610 -1030 WEST GEORGIA STREET, VANCOUVER. EC V6E 4H4 (604) 689-1088 £$n tljc ^upranc Court of JSritisIj Columbia  Na   0843  Smithers  Registry  VICTORIA, B.C.  NOVEMBER 2, 1988  BETWEEN:  AND  DELGAMUUKW, also know as KEN MULDOE,  suing on his own behalf and on behalf  of all other members of the HOUSE OF  DELGAMUUKW, and others,  Plaintiffs  HER MAJESTY THE QUEEN IN RIGHT OF  PROVINCE OF BRITISH COLUMBIA and  THE ATTORNEY-GENERAL FOR CANADA,  THE  Defendants.  COMMISSION   EVIDENCE   OF   OEFFERAY   VINCENT   BOYS  UNITED REPORTING SERVICE LTD., 610 -1030 WEST GEORGIA STREET. VANCOUVER. EC V6E 4H4 (604) 689-1088 APPEARANCES:  S. RUSH, ESQ  appearing for the Plaintiffs  3.M. MACKENZIE, ESQ,  appearing for Her Majesty the  Queen in Right of the Province  of British Columbia  MS. M. KOENIGSBERG  and M.T. WOLF, ESQ  appearing for the Attorney  General of Canada INDEX OF WITNESSES  WITNESSES FOR THE ATTORNEY-GENERAL OF CANADA  PAGE  BOYS, JEFFERAY VINCENT  In chief by Ms. Koenigsberg continued  Cross-exam by Mr. Mackenzie  59  69 INDEX  TO  EXHIBITS  Number  Description  Page Number  27 FOR IDENTIFICATION Extract from Quarterly Report  of J.V. Boys, Hazelton, B.C.)  28  Letter dated November 8, 1947, from Mr. Boys  to Office of Indian Affairs in Ottawa  29 FOR IDENTIFICATION Letter dated December 6, 1961  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  Letter dated November 10, 1047  Tab 10 of red binder, extracts from A.G. of B.C.'s  document 3797  Surrender of Minerals dated January 12, 1948  Hazelton Band Council Resolution dated May 20,  1948, drawn from A.G. of B.C. document 3824  Kisgegas Band Council Resolution dated January  12, 1948  Letter dated February 22, 1949, to Mr. McRae from  Mr. Boys  Letter dated January 20, 1951, from Mr. Cox to Mr.  Appleby, with reply to letter dated January 22,  1951, from Mr. Appleby to Mr. Cox, one page  Letter dated January 10, 1951  Letter dated January 23, 1951, from Mr. Appleby  to Mr. Cox  Application for Registration of a Trapline dated  October 25, 1948, two pages  Application for Cancellation of Registered  Trapline dated October 17, 1951, two pages  Application for Registration of a Trapline dated  December 23, 1948, two pages  Tab 7 of red binder, trapline applications  61  65  69  93  96  98  101  101  102  103  103  104  105  106  107  110 59  J.V. Boys (for Defendant)  In chief by Ms. Koenigsberg  1 November 2, 1988  2 Victoria, B.C.  3  4 MS. KOENIGSBERG:  This is the second day of Mr. Boys' commission  5 evidence, November — somebody better help me.  6 MR. RUSH:  2nd.  7 THE WITNESS:  2nd.  8 MS. KOENIGSBERG:  9 Q  — 2nd, 1988.  Mr. Boys, you're still under oath.  10 Yesterday we were reviewing your time in Hazelton in  11 administering the office of Indian Affairs beginning  12 in about 1946, and I'm showing you a document which is  13 dated May 3rd, 1951.  It's headed "Extract from  14 Quarterly Report of J.V. Boys, Hazelton, B.C."  15 A   Um hum.  16 Q  I would ask you if you recognize those — the writing  17 on that extract as your words?  18 A  There isn't any handwriting on it, but all I can say  19 is that it sums up the situation as it was in Hazelton  20 at the end of my tenure of office there.  21 Q  All right.  And would you have reported to your  22 superiors in the department in this fashion?  23 A  Yes.  I can't recollect exactly when quarterly reports  24 were no longer required, but when I first came into  25 the department, there was — there was that  26 requirement, and it continued for a while, but for how  27 long I couldn't tell you.  28 Q  Now, in this extract you discuss the impact of your  29 policies on the crest system; is that correct?  30 A  Yes.  31 Q  And can you tell us or summarize for us at this time  32 what the impact was of your policies as you saw it in  33 1951?  3 4 A  Well, instead of the property of an — of an  35 individual crest member deriving to the benefit of  36 another crest member, it descended, according to the  37 requirements of the — of the Indian Act of the time  3 8 for the administration of estates, it descended to  3 9 the — the family.  I think — I think the provision,  40 as I recollect it, was one third to the widow and two  41 thirds to the surviving children.  So when estates  42 were properly administered or probated, as the case  43 may be, then they — the deceased's property,  44 including his trapline, descended to his own immediate  45 family.  46 Q  All right.  Now, you mention in this extract the —  47 the custom of erecting totem poles.  During your time 60  J.V. Boys (for Defendant)  In chief by Ms. Koenigsberg  1  2  3  A  4  Q  5  6  A  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  Q  17  18  19  A  20  Q  21  A  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  Q  31  A  32  Q  33  A  34  Q  35  A  36  Q  37  A  38  39  40  Q  41  42  43  44  A  45  Q  46  A  47  Q  in Hazelton were you aware of any ceremonies involving  the raising of a totem pole?  No.  Do you recall the raising of a totem pole with regard  to a person by the name of Charlie Clifford?  Well, there was a pole put up on the — there was a  playing field above the Village of Hazelton on a — on  a bench.  This was the recreation ground, and a pole  was put up, but there was no potlatch associated with  it.  It was -- it was locally made, and a celebration  was with Indians and non-Indians alike.  It's just  that Charlie Clifford had served as chief of the  Hazelton Band for many years, and -- and he didn't on  that occasion give away — he didn't give away money  or gifts to other members of his crest.  If totem poles were raised in any of the villages  contained within the area of your jurisdiction during  this period of time, would you have known about it?  Oh, yes.  And how would you have known?  Well, the raising of a totem pole is a festive  occasion, and we had teachers in every village.  I was  in contact with teachers very frequently, at least  once a week, because we supplied all their needs as to  fuel and anything that they needed in the teacher's  living accommodation and for the school itself, and so  they would certainly be aware of anything of that  nature going on in the village, and they would have  informed me so --  And did you visit the villages yourself?  Oh, yes.  And was --  Frequently.  Was there a regularity to your visits?  No, not — there was no scheduled visit but —  How frequently would you have visited?  Well, with the exception of probably Babine and Old  Fort and Topley Landing, I would — I would probably  visit at least once a week.  All right.  You've mentioned that you were responsible  for providing the needs of the teachers in each  village, and when we say — when we use the word  "village," what are you referring to?  I'm referring to the Indian villages.  And are we referring to Kitwanga and Kitseguecla?  Yes, yeah.  And did the teachers report to you? 61  J.V. Boys (for Defendant)  In chief by Ms. Koenigsberg  1 A  You mean — yes, yes, certainly.  They were a part of  2 my responsibility.  3 Q  Okay.  You mention also, both in relation to the totem  4 pole and in your extract, the custom of potlatching.  5 What was your knowledge of the frequency of feasts or  6 potlatching during your tenure in Hazelton?  7 A  I didn't know of any.  8 Q  And again, if — if a feast were ongoing or a potlatch  9 was going on, would you have known about it?  10 A  Oh, yes, I — I'm confident that I would.  11 MS. KOENIGSBERG:  I'd now like to — oh, if we could mark the  12 Extract for Quarterly Report dated May 3rd, 1951, as  13 the next exhibit.  14 MR. RUSH:  I have an objection to that.  I'm not sure that Mr.  15 Boys has identified that as his.  He hasn't said that  16 he has.  He said that he made reports like this and  17 that it contained — it summed up his view of the  18 situation, but he didn't identify that as his.  So  19 unless you're going to take something more, I don't  20 mind it being marked for identification, but I'm going  21 to object to it being marked, and we can argue about  22 it in due course.  23 MS. KOENIGSBERG:  24 Q  Well, why don't I ask him.  There is no writing on it.  25 Mr. Boys, is there any way that you can tell us if  26 that is -- if you were the author of that extract?  27 A  No, not absolutely.  28 Q  Okay.  And is that because it has no hand — it  29 doesn't have your handwriting on it or your signature?  30 A  Yes, and because the best part of 40 years have  31 elapsed since it was written.  I can't be absolutely  32 specific about it.  33 Q  All right.  Having reviewed its contents, is there  3 4 anything in that document which is at variance with  3 5 your observations and your conclusions about the  36 issues raised in it?  37 A  No, I would be reasonably sure that I wrote it, but  3 8 not positive.  3 9   MS. KOENIGSBERG:  Okay.  Thank you.  Why don't we mark it for  40 identification, and we can argue about it.  I think  41 it's sufficiently identified, but we'll mark it.  42 MR. RUSH:  Well, I just registered an objection.  I don't have  43 any problem proceeding that way.  44 MS. KOENIGSBERG:  Okay.  45  46 (EXHIBIT 27 FOR IDENTIFICATION - Extract from Quarterly Report  47 of J.V. Boys, Hazelton, B.C.) 62  J.V. Boys (for Defendant)  In chief by Ms. Koenigsberg  1 MS. KOENIGSBERG:  2 Q  Mr. Boys, I'd like to ask you about the relationship  3 of your office to band councils during the time that  4 you were in Hazelton.  Did the Indian bands have  5 councils when you arrived in Hazelton?  6 A  Yes, and some of them were what they termed life  7 councils.  They were not elected.  But during my term  8 of office some of the bands changed, and they — they  9 held elections for chiefs and councils.  10 Q  Can you explain first what life councils were?  11 A  Well, I can't explain to you how the original chief  12 and councils were appointed by the band, but they were  13 recognized by the bands as being their represen-  14 tatives, and when they died, somebody inherited that  15 position from them.  Now, I can't tell you exactly how  16 that came about or what were the mechanics of that.  17 Q  All right.  To your knowledge, was the Department of  18 Indian Affairs or the Hazelton office involved in  19 determining who would hold that position or was it a  20 band decision?  21 A  Well, it was a band decision, but I think that the  22 appointment or election — it wasn't an election,  23 actually, because the band didn't vote on it, but the  24 appointment for somebody to succeed a deceased life  25 councillor was stimulated by the representative of the  26 Indian office.  There had to be somebody representing  27 the band in order that band business could be — could  28 be executed, and so that was — was the situation in  29 some bands.  But during my tenure of office some of  3 0 the bands elected to — to change, and they held  31 elections for chief and councillor, who held office  32 for a limited period, at that time two years, and  33 there was -- according to the size of the band, there  3 4 was a chief and two councillors for — I think for any  3 5 band up to 200 members, and then for every hundred  36 members over 200 there was one extra councillor, as I  37 recollect.  38 MR. RUSH:  It's in the Indian Act.  3 9   THE WITNESS:  I beg your pardon?  40 MR. RUSH:  It's in the Indian Act.  41 THE WITNESS:  Yes, yes.  42 MS.   KOENIGSBERG:  43 Q  All right.  What was the role of the office in  44 Hazelton, of your office, with regard to the  45 elections, if any?  46 A  Well, we would supervise elections.  The Indians  47 themselves would be encouraged to — the elections 63  J.V. Boys (for Defendant)  In chief by Ms. Koenigsberg  1 were by ballot, and the Indians themselves were  2 encouraged to hold the elections.  We would provide  3 the necessary materials and advertise the time of  4 the — the holding of the election, and then we would  5 be on hand and assist in the election process.  And  6 they would appoint scrutineers to count the ballots,  7 and we would watch this process and then announce the  8 results in the end.  9 Q  All right.  And what were the matters on reserves over  10 which band councils would have authority?  11 A  Oh, there were innumerable matters.  Anything  12 affecting the band as a community.  Band lands within  13 the reserve.  Oh, utilities, such as the water system,  14 or almost anything affecting the band that required —  15 that required some assistance from elsewhere or  16 requested funds for — for a certain purpose.  That  17 would be the band councils' —  18 Q  All right.  To your knowledge, did band councils hold  19 regular meetings in each of the villages?  20 A  No, not regular meetings.  I mean, they didn't hold  21 monthly meetings.  They held ad hoc meetings.  22 Q  All right.  Did you or someone authorized by you from  23 your office attend those meetings?  24 A  Yes, as a rule because very often the material that  25 was to be considered at a band meeting would originate  26 through our office.  If — well, for instance, if it  27 was necessary to confirm somebody's title to a holding  28 of land within the reserve, the band council would  29 confirm that, but it would arise through our office  30 probably through the administration of an estate.  31 That's just one example of something that might give  32 rise to the need for the attention of the band  33 council.  3 4 Q  Would you or someone attending on your behalf at any  35 of these meetings take notes or keep minutes?  36 A  Yes, we'd keep minutes.  37 Q  And was that one of your duties?  3 8 A  Yes.  3 9 Q  And did you keep those notes in your files from time  40 to time?  41 A  Yes.  42 Q  What was the purpose of your taking and keeping notes  43 of the band council meetings?  44 A  Well, simply to have some record of what had taken  45 place.  I mean, some — there might at some later date  46 be some dispute as to what actually took place, and we  47 would provide an account of this, minutes of these 64  J.V. Boys (for Defendant)  In chief by Ms. Koenigsberg  1 meetings, and a copy of it would be provided to a band  2 council for its records.  3 Q  Okay.  Now, do you recall attending a meeting  4 regarding the amalgamation of the Hazelton and  5 Kisgegas Bands?  6 A  Yes, I attended two or three meetings.  7 Q  I'm showing you a letter dated November 8th, 1947, and  8 I would ask if you recognize your signature and if you  9 are the author of that letter?  10 A   Yes, yes.  11 Q  Could you explain, as best you recall it, the reason  12 for the amalgamation?  Well, I suppose I should back  13 up.  To your knowledge, was the amalgamation of those  14 two bands effected?  15 A  Yes.  16 Q  And could you explain, to the best of your knowledge,  17 what the reason or reasons was for that amalgamation?  18 A  Well, Kisgegas was a small band with a reserve on the  19 Babine River between — between Kispiox and Fort  20 Babine in a very isolated place.  It was not at that  21 time accessible by road, so all of the band members  22 were not — all of the band members, without  23 exception, at the time that this letter was written  24 were living away from the reserve, and the great  25 majority of them were living on the Hazelton Reserve.  26 The Indian Act at the time stated that only the  27 members of the band owning a reserve shall be resident  28 on that reserve and anybody else is in trespass, so  29 these Indians were actually in trespass.  And they  30 were living in housing wherever they could find it,  31 and they couldn't get any funds to improve their  32 housing because they didn't own the housing they were  33 in.  And there were funds provided out of the  3 4 government vote for new housing and for repairs to  35 housing, but these Kisgegas people were not eligible  36 for it.  So this was pointed out to them, and they  37 said that they would like to — they would like to  3 8 get — legalize their residence on the Hazelton  3 9 Reserve.  So first of all a meeting was held with them  40 and a vote taken on what were their wishes, and  41 they — they passed a resolution stating that they  42 wished to join the Hazelton Band, and they were given  43 to understand that if they joined the Hazelton Band,  44 if they were accepted by the Hazelton Band, that they  45 would then share in the assets of the Hazelton Band,  46 but in turn that the Kisgegas Reserve would become a  47 reserve of the Hazelton Band, of which they then 65  J.V. Boys (for Defendant)  In chief by Ms. Koenigsberg  1 became members.  And following the meeting with  2 Kisgegas a meeting was arranged with the Hazelton  3 people, and they in turn agreed to accept them, and  4 this — the resolutions and the correspondence was  5 forwarded to Ottawa, and the — the matter was  6 consummated, and they became members of the Hazelton  7 Band.  8 MS. KOENIGSBERG:  Okay.  Could we mark as the next exhibit the  9 letter of November 8th, 1947, from Mr. Boys to the  10 Office of Indian Affairs in Ottawa?  11  12 (EXHIBIT 28 - Letter dated November 8, 1947, from Mr. Boys to  13 Office of Indian Affairs in Ottawa)  14  15 MS. KOENIGSBERG:  16 Q      Mr.   Boys,   do you know why the members of  the Kisgegas  17 Band were  — had  taken  up residence at  Hazelton?  18 A       Do  I  know why?  19 MS. KOENIGSBERG:  Yes, before the amalgamation.  20 MR. RUSH:  I have to object to that.  You're asking him about a  21 number of people, and you're asking him to look into  22 the minds of those other people to determine why they  23 did what they did.  24 MS. KOENIGSBERG:  25 Q  Well, okay, I'll rephrase the question.  26 From your personal observation and knowledge, were  27 there any reasons why the Kisgegas people were living  28 in the Hazelton Reserve?  29 A  Well, the — the trail — the only — the only trail  3 0 to — the trail to the nearest trading post was to  31 Hazelton.  There was no trading post on their reserve.  32 I would assume that that's one reason at least.  And  33 relationships with, intermarriage with Hazelton Band  3 4 members.  3 5 Q  Could you tell us what, to your personal observation  36 and knowledge, were the major sources of employment of  37 the Indians, and you may have to break it down by  3 8 region, within your jurisdiction during the time that  3 9 you were there in Hazelton?  40 A  Well, again, I have to separate the people from along  41 the Skeena and those living to the east of the Skeena  42 River.  For the people along the Skeena the major  43 source of income was the fishing industry, which I  44 explained yesterday.  Both the men and the women and  45 the families went to the — went to the coast, and  46 they first of all participated in the preparatory work  47 to the fishing season, the overhauling of boats and 66  J.V. Boys (for Defendant)  In chief by Ms. Koenigsberg  1 nets and gear, and men in fishing, the women in fish  2 processing in the canneries, and then a number of them  3 were — were kept for a while longer at the coast to  4 do the cleaning up work at the end of the season.  And  5 secondary to that was either trapping, which was  6 fairly extensive, or working in the logging — the  7 logging industry, logging and sawmilling.  And, well,  8 aside from that, just a variety of miscellaneous jobs.  9 Q  Okay.  What about the people to the east, the Carrier?  10 A  To the east?  Mainly they were involved in the logging  11 industry and sawmill.  There were a lot of sawmills.  12 Sawmills at Smithers and Houston and Burns Lake,  13 Pendleton Bay, Babine Lake.  And aside from that, just  14 a variety of odd jobs.  A number of section men  15 working on the railway.  Oh, a number of Indians were  16 employed by the Department of Fisheries.  Just — just  17 a variety.  18 Q  Okay.  Now, in the beginning of your evidence  19 yesterday you told us about really the broad outlines  20 of your — your career before your retirement, and  21 you've told us that you had a few posts as Indian  22 Agent or Indian Superintendent after leaving Hazelton,  23 and then you became Indian Commissioner for British  24 Columbia; is that correct?  25 A  Um hum.  26 Q  When did you become Indian Commissioner?  27 A  In August 1961.  28 Q  And for how many years did you hold that position?  29 A  Until September 1969.  3 0 Q  All right.  And generally speaking, what are the  31 responsibilities of that position?  32 A  Well, there are — there were approximately 20 Indian  33 agencies covering British Columbia.  I was responsible  3 4 also for the Yukon.  And so I was responsible for the  35 supervision of the administration of those agencies,  36 and I was the major contact with all of the Indians in  37 British Columbia and their — members of their —  3 8 members of their Indian associations and organiza-  39 tions, and liaison with the provincial government and  40 other government departments regarding matters that —  41 affecting the Indians of the province.  That broadly  42 is what my responsibilities were.  43 Q  Okay.  And the Indian Agents/Superintendents around  44 the province had an obligation to report to you?  45 A  Yes.  46 Q  Did you regularize that reporting system while you  47 were Indian Commissioner — 67  J.V. Boys (for Defendant)  In chief by Ms. Koenigsberg  1  A  2  Q  3  A  4  5  6  7  8  Q  9  A  10  11  12  Q  13  A  14  Q  15  A  16  17  18  19  Q  20  21  22  23  A  24  Q  25  A  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  Q  34  35  36  A  37  Q  38  39  40  41  A  42  43  44  45  46  47  Yes.  — or was a regular reporting system in place?  Yes, I organized — I had regular reports that came  in, brief reports, each month accompanying just a  statement of what had transpired during the month, and  and then there was a report, an annual report that  accompanied the estimates of the following year and —  When you say estimates —  Then we had — we had ad hoc meetings, and I would  have a superintendents' conference at least once a  year.  When you say estimates, do you mean the budgeting —  Yes.  — for the year?  Estimates for the — for the following year were —  were sent in about toward the end of the calendar  year.  The subsequent fiscal year started on the 1st  of April.  While you were Indian Commissioner, was there any  format that you expected of Indian Agents in making  their reports, the things that they were to report on  and the basis for those reports?  Yes.  And what was that?  Oh, there was welfare and, well, all — roughly that  corresponded with all of the divisions of the  headquarters in Ottawa because those headquarters  would want — would get a copy, and they would want to  know what had transpired in their area.  So their was  lands, and education, welfare, the economy in the  area, and so forth.  I can't recollect exactly what  the — what the headings were at this point.  What steps, if any, would you have expected an Indian  Agent to take with regard to ascertaining the accuracy  of the information which they reported on?  I'm not sure I quite follow you.  Was there any — was there a duty or a concern that  you as Indian Commissioner would have about the  accuracy of the observations being reported by Indian  agents in their reports to you?  Well, I had two assistants, assistant commissioners,  and between the three of us we regularly visited  agencies throughout the province.  I think in my last  year I was away overnight 149 days out of the year,  and that was just visiting not only the Indian  superintendents, but groups of Indians, and I'm sure  that if there had been inaccuracies, I would have 68  J.V. Boys (for Defendant)  In chief by Ms. Koenigsberg  1 heard of them through the Indians themselves.  2 Q  While you were Indian Commissioner, was there any one  3 person in your office who had responsibility for  4 the — for Indian hunting and trapping?  5 A  Yes.  6 Q  And who was that?  7 A  A man named Robin Kendall.  8 Q  And would he have the authority to write reports or  9 letters in his area of concern over your name?  10 A  Yes.  11 Q  I'm showing you a letter dated December 6th, 1961.  12 It's over your name, but if you look at the initials  13 of the person dictating the letter, if you could tell  14 us who the author — if you know who the author of  15 that letter was?  16 A  Well, the initials on this letter are R.K., which is  17 the same as Robin Kendall's initials.  I don't  18 recognize the letter.  19 Q  Does the letter state the policy and the directives  20 with regard to the subject matter of the letter?  21 A  Well, I'm not clear what gave rise to this reply.  22  23 "The situation described by you in your  24 memorandum is one that has been described  25 many times throughout the province."  26  27 I don't know what that situation was.  28 Q  All right.  If you look at the top of the letter, it  29 says, "Compensation to Indians for traplines absorbed  30 in farm lands."  31 A  Oh, yes.  32 Q  Was that a matter of concern while you were Indian  33 Commissioner that you recall?  3 4 A  It wasn't a matter that came much to my attention, no.  3 5 It was a matter that — that created some problems  36 for — for Indian trapline holders and for Indians  37 further south in — in cattle country that had used  3 8 Crown grazing lands, for instance, when those lands  3 9 were — were Crown granted to a farmer and they were  40 no longer available to them.  This is a typical  41 problem of that nature.  42 Q  All right.  Would you look at the last full paragraph  43 on page 1 and over to page 2, and can you tell us if  44 the statement in that letter represents the position  45 and policy of the Department of Indian Affairs at the  46 time you were Indian Commissioner?  47 A   You're referring to? 69  J.V. Boys (for Defendant)  In chief by Ms. Koenigsberg  Cross-exam by Mr. Mackenzie  1 Q  The last paragraph beginning with, "One point that  2 must be kept in mind," and finishing on page 2.  3 A  Well, it seems to me that that is a policy of the  4 provincial government rather than ours.  5 Q  Yes.  But was it a policy which — which was -- the  6 effect of which was agreed to by your department while  7 you were Indian Commissioner?  8 A  Let's say that it was accepted because the provincial  9 government has jurisdiction over lands.  10 MS. KOENIGSBERG:  Okay.  If we can mark this letter for  11 identification.  12 MR. RUSH:  Yes.  I would register a similar objection there, but  13 I think that's the right way to go.  We can argue  14 about it sometime later.  15 MS. KOENIGSBERG:  I wouldn't propose that it could be marked as  16 having been identified by this witness, but for  17 identification as the letter about which we were  18 speaking.  19  20 (EXHIBIT 29 FOR IDENTIFICATION:  Letter dated December 6, 1961)  21  22 MS. KOENIGSBERG:  If we take an early break, if no one has any  23 concerns, I can determine if I'm finished or if I have  24 a couple of further questions.  25  26 (PROCEEDINGS ADJOURNED AT 10:15 A.M.)  27 (PROCEEDINGS RECONVENED AT 10:30 A.M.)  28  29 MR. MACKENZIE:  Have you finished?  30 MS. KOENIGSBERG:  Yes, I have completed the questioning.  31  32 CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR. MACKENZIE:  33 Q  Mr. Boys, I am acting for the provincial government,  3 4 which is a defendant in this lawsuit in which the  3 5 hereditary chiefs of the Gitksan and Wet'suwet'en are  36 plaintiffs.  During your testimony you spoke to us  37 about your early experience as a member of the B.C.  3 8 Police Force at Telegraph Creek, and you recall that  3 9 testimony?  40 A  Yes.  41 Q  During those years that you were in that location you  42 had occasion to visit traplines in that area?  43 A  Yes.  44 Q  You travelled throughout — throughout many parts of  45 the area of your jurisdiction, as I understand it, by  46 dog team?  47 A  Um hum. J.V. Boys (for Defendant)  Cross-exam by Mr. Mackenzie  1 Q  And you visited reserves in that area?  2 A  Yes.  3 Q  You also travelled down into the Bear Lake area; is  4 that correct?  5 A  Well, not as far as Bear Lake, no, but I met many of  6 the Bear Lake Indians because they came north as far  7 as Caribou Hide, which was within my detachment area,  8 and trapped in and around Caribou Hide and came into  9 Telegraph Creek to sell their furs.  10 Q  And those were Sekani Indians?  11 A  Yes.  12 Q  Did you get down to the Thutade Lake area at any time?  13 A  I beg your pardon?  14 Q  Thutade Lake area at any time.  15 A  No, not to my recollection.  16 Q  Did you get down to the headwaters of the Skeena River  17 at any time?  18 A  Yes, yes.  19 Q  But the Indian people in your jurisdiction were  20 primarily the Tahltan people; is that correct?  21 A  Yes.  22 Q  In the Stikine River valleys?  23 A  Yes.  24 Q  How far south, to your knowledge, did their territory  25 extend or their area of trapping?  26 A  Well, they trapped in the Klappan area around the  27 headquarters of the Iskut River, down the Stikine  28 River as far as the Skud River, and then north right  29 through to the Yukon border.  3 0 Q  Is it fair to say that their trapping area pretty  31 well, as far as the southern extent, pretty well took  32 in the — the Stikine River drainage system?  33 A  Yes.  34 Q  Yes?  35 A   Yes.  36 Q  They didn't — do you recall any contacts or any  37 disputes with the Gitksan people — between the  3 8 Gitksan people and the Stikine people?  3 9 A  I don't recall any.  40 Q  Did you have — during your years at Telegraph Creek  41 did you have occasion to visit Nishga people?  42 A  No.  43 Q  No.  Did you have any contact with the Nishga people?  44 A  No.  45 Q  To your knowledge, the Nishga people lived in the —  46 in reserves in the Nass Valley?  47 A  Yes. 71  J.V. Boys (for Defendant)  Cross-exam by Mr. Mackenzie  1  Q  2  A  3  Q  4  A  5  6  7  8  9  Q  10  11  12  A  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  Q  20  A  21  Q  22  23  A  24  Q  25  26  27  28  29  A  30  31  32  33  Q  34  35  A  36  Q  37  A  38  Q  39  40  41  42  A  43  Q  44  A  45  Q  46  47  Were you hunting yourself during those years?  Yes.  Yes.  And did you also engage in trapping?  No.  I might explain that there is no butcher shop in  my detachment area up there, so if you — unless you  were a vegetarian, there is no other way to get meat,  other than to find a hunter to buy it from, somebody  who had hunted it.  It was all wild meat.  No vegetables either, I take it.  Did your  jurisdiction extend down along the Yukon telegraph  line to as far as the seventh cabin?  Yes.  I can't recollect exactly which cabin.  I can  remember some of the linemen who were in those cabins  in the Klappan area.  There was a lineman named Tommy  Hankin, and south of that there was a man named Moose  MacKay, so I would say probably four refuge cabins  south of Telegraph Creek, at least four refuge cabins  south of Telegraph Creek.  Would that extend east of the Bell-Irving River?  Just north of the Bell-Irving River.  All right.  Your game jurisdiction didn't extend east  to the Bell-Irving River?  Not — not as I recollect it.  No.  And you spoke of your term as Indian Agent or  Indian Superintendent at Hazelton from 1946 to 1951.  When you arrived in the Hazelton area, is it fair to  say that — I think you will agree with this — that  trapping as an activity was in decline?  Well, I don't know how active it had been prior to my  arrival there.  During my time there the — the  Indians of that area were not as active in trapping as  I had found them in the Stikine to the north.  And is it — from your experience, is it fair to say  that fur prices varied over the years?  Yes.  And were fur prices relatively low during those years?  Yes.  And that would be a factor, as you indicated — sorry,  you didn't indicate this.  But the fact that fur  prices were low would tend to be a disincentive to  trapping —  Yes.  — would it not?  Yes.  Yes.  It's fair to say, is it not, that the principal  purpose for trapping, at least to your knowledge,  was — was to obtain an income from selling the furs? 72  J.V. Boys (for Defendant)  Cross-exam by Mr. Mackenzie  1 A  Yes.  2 Q  Yes.  That is, it was an economic —  3 A  Yes.  4 Q  — purpose?  5 Yes.  And in your testimony you said that when  6 income from fishing was particularly good that was  7 also a disincentive to trapping?  8 A  Right.  9 MR. MACKENZIE:  And is it fair to say also that with increasing  10 income opportunities from the logging industry that  11 was also a disincentive to trapping?  12 MR. RUSH:  I'm going to tell you, I'm going to register an  13 objection to all of this.  You're asking for opinion  14 evidence of the — of the extreme kind, and I'm just  15 going to register an objection because I think it's —  16 it's not the kind of evidence, economic evidence, that  17 you can — which is of much value in this hearing.  18 MR. MACKENZIE:  19 Q  Okay.  I'll rephrase my question.  Were you aware of  20 any specific examples of Indians in your agency who  21 turned from trapping to logging as a source of income?  22 A  I can't on the spur of the moment name anybody who —  23 who abandoned trapping in favour of logging or  24 anything else, but I definitely did observe that there  25 was less absenteeism from the villages in the  26 wintertime after a good year at the coast than there  27 was after an indifferent year of fishing at the coast.  28 Q  When you say absenteeism, you're referring to people  29 being absent on the traplines?  30 A   Yes, and children absent from the schools.  31 Q  Now, you did refer to logging in your testimony.  32 There was some pole logging going on at that time —  33 A  Yes.  3 4 Q  — was there not?  35 A  Yes.  36 Q  And it was the Hansen Lumber Company that was the  37 principal employer in that area, was it not, or  3 8 contractor?  3 9 A  One of the principal contractors, yes.  40 Q  And that was really the only type of logging that was  41 being carried out in those days, wasn't it?  42 A  No, no, it wasn't.  There was — there was logging for  43 sawmills, particularly in the eastern part of the  4 4 agency area.  45 Q  Yes, that's a fair statement.  In the Kispiox and the  46 Skeena Valley pole logging was quite important?  47 A  It was mostly pole logging in the Kispiox and Skeena 73  J.V. Boys (for Defendant)  Cross-exam by Mr. Mackenzie  1  2  Q  3  4  5  A  6  7  8  9  Q  10  11  A  12  Q  13  14  15  16  A  17  Q  18  A  19  Q  20  A  21  Q  22  23  24  A  25  Q  26  27  A  28  Q  29  30  31  A  32  Q  33  A  34  35  36  Q  37  38  39  40  41  A  42  Q  43  44  A  45  Q  46  47  Valley areas.  And that, in effect, was the removing of timber or  trees to be used as telephone poles, is that correct,  to your knowledge?  Yes, to be used as telephone poles.  The B.C. Power  Commission, as it was then known, was erecting power  lines into rural areas at the time, and they utilized  a fairly large number of poles.  Was the technology being used at that time that you  were there still the horse-sled technology form?  A lot of horses were used, and some smaller tractors.  And to your knowledge, that logging which you  indicated — I'm sorry, I'll rephrase that question.  To your knowledge, some of the Indians or many of the  Indians in your agency were involved in that industry?  Yes.  And some of them actually had contracts —  Yes.  — with Hansen Lumber Company, for example?  Um hum.  Some of them, such as Pete Muldoe and Fritz Harris —  or did you know that — did you know of Pete Muldoe  and Fritz Harris' sawmill up near Kispiox?  Yes.  So they in fact employed other Indians in that  sawmill, didn't they?  Yes.  And is it fair to say, to your knowledge, that the  logging that was done by those Indian contractors was  subject to provincial permits —  Yes.  — and authority?  Yes, for — for any timber that was obtained outside  of the reserve.  There was some logging on the reserve  in some areas.  You say you're familiar with traplines from your years  as a B.C. police officer.  From your personal  knowledge, is it fair to say that a trapper requires  an exclusive area in which to conduct his — to  service his traplines?  That's correct.  And he would have several lines in that area, would he  not?  Yes.  And he would, as you indicated, service the lines  perhaps alternately or one at a time from a central  base? 74  J.V. Boys (for Defendant)  Cross-exam by Mr. Mackenzie  1  A  2  3  4  5  6  Q  7  8  9  10  A  11  Q  12  A  13  Q  14  15  A  16  Q  17  18  A  19  20  21  22  Q  23  A  24  25  Q  26  27  A  28  Q  29  30  A  31  32  Q  33  34  A  35  Q  36  37  38  A  39  Q  40  41  42  43  A  44  Q  45  46  A  47  That was the usual method of trapping, to run in one  direction, set traps, return to base camp and then go  out in another direction, and then a few days later go  back and pick up the fur in the traps that had  initially been set.  And because of the fact that you had traps and you  needed that exclusive area, Indians, to your  knowledge, sought protection for their — the  interests in their traplines —  Yes.  — in their trapline areas, correct?  Yeah.  And, in fact, Indians co-operated with you in applying  for provincial trapline registration, did they not?  Yes.  And they co-operated because they saw that this would  be a form of protection for their interests?  Well, I imagine that they co-operated because that was  the requisite method of securing and holding a  trapline, and they saw the value of having their own  area protected.  Do you know that to your own personal knowledge?  Well, that's — that's certainly an inference that I  would draw from dealing with these people.  Is it — you spoke briefly about the boundaries of  Walter Blackwater's trapline.  Do you recall that?  Yes.  And do you recall the discussion was that Mr. Appleby  had prepared a sketch map of the trapline?  He prepared a sketch map of the trapline that we were  seeking to buy from Lou Gelly.  Yes, that's correct.  And he sent that to the game —  Provincial Game Department?  Yes.  And the  provincial  game department  in  effect  expanded  the boundaries  to  take  in heights  of  land and  drainage  —  That's correct.  — is that correct?  From your knowledge, is it fair to say that  generally the traplines were laid along the creeks in  a drainage system?  Yes, yes.  And the animals that were being trapped were beaver,  for example?  Well, in the spring there was what was commonly known  locally as the beaver hunt and — but during the 75  J.V. Boys (for Defendant)  Cross-exam by Mr. Mackenzie  1 winter months the fur that was trapped mostly was  2 marten, mink, fisher, weasel, some fox, and then  3 usually the beaver were hunted after the ice went out  4 of the waterways in the springtime.  5 Q  Those animals that you mentioned, except for the  6 beaver, are primarily forest dwelling?  7 A  Yes.  8 Q  Or they live along a creek bed — creek banks; is that  9 fair to say?  10 A  Usually most of them live in timber.  Marten  11 essentially live in timber.  12 Q  Yes.  13 A  And fisher.  14 Q  Those animals that you've just mentioned are not  15 trapped in subalpine non-timber areas, are they?  16 A  No.  17 Q       So,   to your personal  knowledge,   the  traplines  did not  18 extend  into  subalpine and  alpine areas?  19 A       No,   I  think  —  the —  the boundary of  the  trapline  20 would probably  extend  to  the height of land,  but  it  21 would be unlikely  that  the  trapper would go above  22 timber  line in order  to  trap,  because he wouldn't  find  23 very much  there.  24 Q       When you  say the boundary,   you're  speaking about  the  25 block,   the  area  —  26 A       Yes.  27 Q  — that was registered?  28 A  Yes.  It might be described in the registration form  29 as to the height of land, and that's following the  30 height of land to the headwaters of such and such a  31 creek.  That was probably the way that the — that the  32 description would read.  33 Q  But is it fair to say — I agree.  I understand that.  3 4 Is it fair to say though that what was of principal  3 5 interest to the Indian trapper was the location of his  36 lines and protection of the traps and the trapping  37 along those lines?  3 8 A  Yes.  3 9 Q  Yes.  And did it happen more than once or on other  40 occasions that the — on occasions other than the  41 Blackwater example — that the provincial game  42 department would expand the boundaries to take in  43 heights of land?  44 A  Yes, they would revise sketch maps that we sent in to  45 conform not only with their — the — with the  46 geography of their maps, but to make more — what were  47 more reasonable limits, in their opinion, for the — 76  J.V. Boys (for Defendant)  Cross-exam by Mr. Mackenzie  1 for the trapper.  2 Q  And is it fair to say that the Indian people whom you  3 represented generally accepted the registration of  4 their traplines in that form?  5 A  Yes.  I'm sure that — Walter Blackwater I'm sure was  6 delighted.  7 Q  Speaking about Walter Blackwater, I saw in the  8 correspondence that you had written to him twice, and  9 perhaps we can look at those letters, but my  10 recollection was that you had written to Walter  11 Blackwater to see whether he was interested in taking  12 up that area as a trapline.  Is that the case?  13 A  Yes.  14 Q  Yes.  He had been involved on his father's trapline at  15 Blackwater Lake, hadn't he?  16 A  Yes.  17 Q  His father was James Blackwater?  18 A  That lay immediately adjacent to the — the Gelly line  19 that was becoming available.  20 Q  Yes.  Did that happen on other occasions, that you  21 wrote to Indians whom you represented to seek an  22 expression of interest in certain areas that you were  23 registering or hoped to register?  24 A  Yes.  If we — if we noticed that there was an area  25 available, we would attempt to contact somebody who  26 would be a logical registrant for that particular  27 area.  Certainly not somebody from a long distance  28 away.  We might have some applications or we might  29 have some requests from Indians let us say from Fort  30 Babine who would like to have a trapline if one ever  31 came vacant, but if one came vacant in the — in the  32 area north of Kispiox, well, obviously that's not a  33 logical person to — to locate in that area.  34 Q  And the reason would be because of the distance —  35 A  Yes.  36 Q  — you would have to travel, in your view?  37 A  Yeah.  And also he wouldn't be among people of his  38 own — of his own cultural group.  3 9 Q  Yes.  And when you say logical registrants, those  40 would include the heirs of former registered holders  41 who had passed away, I mean of deceased registered  42 holders?  43 A  Yes.  44 Q  They would include people whom you knew were  45 interested in — perhaps we'll just stop while Miss  46 Koenigsberg lets down the blinds.  47 Sorry, I'll rephrase that question.  We were 77  J.V. Boys (for Defendant)  Cross-exam by Mr. Mackenzie  1 talking about logical registrants, and I was saying  2 another logical registrant would be someone whom you  3 knew was interested in trapping?  4 A  Yes.  5 Q  A logical — what other categories of logical  6 registrants would there be?  7 A  Well, there would be those who were entitled to be  8 registered by virtue of succession from the previous  9 registered holder if he was deceased.  10 Q  Yes.  Well, for an area that was not registered, how  11 would you determine who would be a logical registrant?  12 A  Well, if he had reasonable access to the area without  13 having to travel great distances, that would be  14 logical.  If he was — if he was among or surrounded  15 by other registered trappers who were not likely to be  16 antagonistic toward him because he was more or less  17 alien, that would be more logical than setting  18 somebody in there who had — really was not among his  19 own kind.  20 Q  Your principal policy and objective was to preserve  21 the Indian trapping areas —  22 A   Yes.  23 Q  — in perpetuity for Indians?  24 A  Yes.  25 Q  So your primary concern was to find an Indian whom you  26 represented who would agree to take that registration?  27 A  Yes.  28 Q  Now, you had a lot of experience hunting in your time  29 as a B.C. police constable.  Did you also hunt while  30 you were in Hazelton?  31 A  Yes, occasionally.  32 Q  And you were aware that — that the Indian people who  33 you represented were hunting?  34 A  Yes.  3 5 Q  And there were white people hunting also in the  36 Hazelton area?  37 A  Oh, yes.  3 8 Q  The white people supplemented their diets during those  3 9 years with wild game?  40 A  Yes.  41 MR. MACKENZIE:  And from your personal experience, while hunting  42 one would range over a more extensive area than, for  43 example, a person would servicing a trapline?  44 MR. RUSH:  Maybe you should ask him what he did as opposed to  45 what he might think others did in his absence.  46 MR.   MACKENZIE:  47 Q  From your personal experience. 78  J.V. Boys (for Defendant)  Cross-exam by Mr. Mackenzie  1 A  That while hunting you would range further than?  2 Q  While hunting you would range over a greater expanse  3 of territory than a person servicing a specific  4 trapline area?  5 A  No, I wouldn't agree with that.  6 Q  All right.  Well, can you agree that — that in  7 hunting you weren't — a person wouldn't be restricted  8 to one specific area?  9 A  Oh, I — yes, exactly.  I agree with that.  What I  10 thought you meant was that perhaps you wouldn't have  11 to travel as far in hunting as you would on a  12 trapline.  13 Q  Oh, not — not at all, no.  The point that I'm making  14 is that —  15 A  In hunting you're not restricted to any area.  You can  16 hunt anywhere you wish.  And any — a hunter setting  17 out might very well hunt over an area that was  18 somebody else's trapline, and there was no restriction  19 on that.  20 Q  Did you have any personal knowledge of Indian hunting  21 practices?  22 A  Yes.  I've hunted with Indians.  23 Q  Did you ever hunt with Indians while you were in the  24 Hazelton area?  25 A  Yes.  26 MR. MACKENZIE:  And how would the Indians get their — bring the  27 animals that they had shot back to the villages?  28 MR. RUSH:  The ones that he hunted with.  29 MR. MACKENZIE:  30 Q   Yes.  31 A  Well, in — in one instance by pack horse, and in  32 another instance by boat and — backpacked down to the  33 water and then by boat.  3 4 Q  Those two instances you were speaking about, were  3 5 those special hunting trips in the sense of a vacation  36 or —  37 A  Yes, I — I was given time off to go and hunt.  I  38 mean, I was given — I was given leave, and I elected  3 9 to go and hunt.  40 Q  Well, if a person — well, I have to speak about your  41 specific knowledge.  You are aware that Indian people  42 in the Hazelton area did hunt for — to supplement  43 their diet?  4 4 A  Yes.  45 Q  And they hunted regularly?  46 A  Yes.  47 MR. MACKENZIE:  And is it fair to say that they would hunt 79  J.V.   Boys   (for Defendant)  Cross-exam by Mr.   Mackenzie  1 within a  day or  two  from the village in order  to bring  2 their  catch back  to the village?  3 MR.   RUSH:     How  can  he answer  that question?  4 MR. MACKENZIE:  5 Q  From your personal knowledge.  6 A  Well, I can't from my personal knowledge answer the  7 question.  8 Q  My — the question will be that — the question to you  9 is that for regular hunting there was no requirement  10 to say go as far as the headwaters of the Skeena  11 River?  12 A  Oh, no, no.  13 Q       You  could  — you  could hunt  to  supplement  one's  diet  14 adequately within a  day or  two  from Hazelton?  15 A       Yeah,   yes.  16 Q  And that is in fact, to your knowledge, what people  17 did during those days, white and Indian?  18 A  Yes.  19 MR. RUSH:  Again, how can he answer that?  20 THE WITNESS:     Well   --  21 MR.   RUSH:     You were  on  two hunting  trips  that  you've given  22 evidence about.  23 MR.   MACKENZIE:  24 Q  What — on what basis could you make a statement  25 that — or could you agree with my statement to that  26 effect?  27 A  Well, I -- I do know that in some instances that  28 hunters went out from the village and were back in the  29 same day with — having hunted successfully.  30 Q  You said that your agency extended north to the sixth  31 cabin on the Yukon telegraph line; is that correct?  32 A  Well, I'm not absolutely positive which cabin it was.  33 Q  Well, the sixth cabin was at the Nass River.  Would  3 4 you have known that? Just before the Nass River.  3 5 A  The Nass River was in the Skeena Agency.  It was my  36 neighbouring agency to the west.  My responsibility  37 went to about two cabins north of Kuldoe Reserve on  3 8 the Yukon telegraph line, and I think it would  3 9 probably be around fifth cabin.  40 Q  Now, fifth cabin was just after Slamgeesh Lake at  41 Martins Flats there just before you get to Blackwater  42 Lake.  Were you ever up in that area?  43 A  No.  44 Q  No.  Do you have any knowledge of whether Indians were  45 actively trapping up in the areas in the headwaters of  46 the Skeena during the time that you were in Hazelton?  47 A  Only from the returns that we asked Indians — there 80  J.V. Boys (for Defendant)  Cross-exam by Mr. Mackenzie  1 was no — there was an obligation among whites to  2 report their catch, and we asked Indians to co-operate  3 in doing the same thing, but we weren't too successful  4 in gaining their co-operation.  But we did get some  5 returns from — from traplines in the area north —  6 along the telegraph line north of Hazelton.  7 Q  And Bear Lake was not included in the Babine Agency in  8 those days, was it?  9 A   No.  10 Q  It was in the Stuart Lake Agency?  11 A  Stuart Lake Agency, yes.  12 Q  Did you ever — you told me that you had been along  13 the Suskwa River over to Babine Lake?  14 A  Yes.  15 Q  And you visited the Babine Indians, who are in your  16 agency —  17 A  Yes.  18 Q  — and part of your responsibility?  19 A  Quite frequently.  20 Q  Was there any difference, to your knowledge, in  21 culture, apart from urbanization, between the Babine  22 Indians there and the Carrier Indians in Moricetown?  23 A  No essential difference.  There had been an  24 agreement — it was an historical fact that there had  25 been an agreement between the religious authorities,  26 the missionaries, in the early days that the Roman  27 Catholics would extend their sphere of influence as  28 far as the Skeena and to the east of the Skeena, and  29 down the Skeena and to the west that the Protestant  3 0 churches would — would look after the spiritual needs  31 of the Indians.  Hagwilget and — and Fort Babine both  32 had a resident Roman Catholic priest, and there wasn't  33 one at Moricetown, and I think they were visited by a  3 4 missionary from Smithers.  3 5 Q  Would you be able to agree with me — would you be  36 able to agree with the statement that there was in  37 fact no one trapping in the Duti River, D-u-t-i,  3 8 Chipmunk Creek area at the headwaters of the Skeena in  39 the 1950's, early 1950's?  40 A  I wouldn't know.  41 Q  You wouldn't know whether there were people up there  42 or not trapping?  43 A  No, I wouldn't know.  44 Q  Now, your -- your agency didn't extend as far as  45 Thutade Lake either, did it?  46 A  No.  47 Q  That was in the Stuart Lake Agency? 81  J.V.   Boys   (for  Defendant)  Cross-exam by Mr.   Mackenzie  1  A  2  Q  3  4  5  A  6  Q  7  8  A  9  Q  10  11  A  12  Q  13  14  15  A  16  Q  17  A  18  Q  19  20  A  21  Q  22  A  23  Q  24  A  25  Q  26  27  28  29  A  30  31  32  Q  33  34  A  35  Q  36  37  38  39  40  41  A  42  Q  43  44  45  A  46  Q  47  Yes,   I  think  it was.  Just  speaking about  resource — resource development,  you referred  to  Crown-granted mineral  claims  on  the  linen maps we looked at yesterday?  Yes.  There was prospecting going on during the time you  were in Hazelton?  Yes.  And there was no objection, to your knowledge, from  the Indian people whom you represented?  No.  In fact, some of the Indian people whom you  represented engaged in prospecting; is that true to  your knowledge?  Yes, there were a few who —  Did you know Neil Sterritt Sr.?  Yes.  Did you — were you aware of his mineral prospecting  activities?  Yes.  Because he was not an Indian.  No.  He had some Indian blood in him —  Yes.  — to your knowledge?  I ~  That's a difficult question to answer.  Would you have  any knowledge of that?  Would you be able to agree that the prospecting  that was carried on was subject to provincial permits?  Yes, it was necessary for anybody in order to stake a  claim to get a free miner's licence from the  provincial government.  And that included any of the Indians whom you  represented —  Yes.  — who were interested?  Yes.     I'm  still  referring  to  the  subject  of  trapping.     In your  evidence in  chief  there was  a  discussion of your  correspondence relating  to  the  Harris,   Victoria  Harris  trapline  just  south  of  Kitwanga.     Do you recall  that?  Yes.  And  is  it  fair  to  say  that  there was  —  there  appeared  to be  some  dispute at Kitwanga  over  the ownership of  that  trapline area?  Yes.  And you  indicated  in your  correspondence  that  the  registered holder was  the  person with authority  to 82  J.V.   Boys   (for  Defendant)  Cross-exam by  Mr.   Mackenzie  1 trap  in  that area?  2 A       Yes.  3 Q  Did you have any other trapline disputes referred to  4 you, to your recollection?  5 A  Yes, but don't ask me what they were.  6 Q  Is it — it would be fair to say that these would be  7 cases in which there was some conflicting claim to a  8 specific area between —  9 A  Yes.  10 Q  — Indian people?  11 A  Yes.  12 Q  And the parties would come to you for a resolution of  13 the conflict?  14 A   Yes.  15 MR.   MACKENZIE:     Or,   alternatively,   to your  knowledge,   would  they  16 go directly to  the game warden?  17 MR.   RUSH:     How would he know?  18 MS.   KOENIGSBERG:     Well,   I  think he  can be asked  that question,  19 and  then  the  follow-up question  is how do you know.  20 THE WITNESS:     I  can't recollect  if we had referrals  from  the  21 game branch  of   submissions  that had been made  to  them  22 for  resolution of  conflicts.     I  suspect  that  there  23 were,  but  I  can't --  I  can't recollect  for  sure.  24 MR.   MACKENZIE:  25 Q       You were  referred  in your  evidence  to the  policy  of  26 having  Indians  relinquish  their  traplines  upon  27 enfranchisement?  28 A       Yes.  29 Q  There was also a problem, was there not, of Indians  30 seeking to sell their traplines to white people?  31 A  Occasionally.  32 Q  Do you have any knowledge of why Indians would want to  33 sell their traplines to white people?  3 4 A  Well, there was a — a growing migration to urban  3 5 centres from — from my agency, and — according to a  36 report from others, and if an Indian was going to an  37 urban centre, he would no longer have any use for his  3 8 trapline, but he could certainly use any funds that he  3 9 could realize from the sale of his trapline.  40 Q  Well, is it fair to say that the reason why you — I'm  41 sorry.  It is fair to say that you prevented Indian  42 people from selling their traplines to white people  43 whenever you could?  44 A  Yes, with the co-operation of the B.C. Game Branch.  45 They assisted us in insuring that an Indian trapline  46 would only be transferred to another Indian.  47 Q  You had the co-operation of the B.C. Game Branch 83  J.V. Boys (for Defendant)  Cross-exam by Mr. Mackenzie  1  2  A  3  Q  4  5  A  6  Q  7  8  9  A  10  11  12  Q  13  14  A  15  Q  16  17  18  19  A  20  Q  21  A  22  23  Q  24  25  26  A  27  Q  28  29  30  A  31  Q  32  33  34  35  A  36  Q  37  38  39  A  40  Q  41  42  A  43  44  45  46  47  throughout this period, as you testified?  Yes.  And  they were willing  to assist you,   as you mentioned,  in preserving  these  areas  for  Indian  trappers?  Yes.  And the reason that you had that policy was that if  you didn't have it, you thought that the Indians would  sell the traplines?  Well, in some instances, yes.  We felt that this was  another valuable source of income, and we wanted to  insure that it wasn't lost.  And it would have been lost if you hadn't prevented  the Indians from selling the traplines?  Yes.  You spoke about the application procedure in the case  of Walter Blackwater.  Speaking about other  applications, your practice was to have Indians sign  the trapline applications?  Yes.  In  some  cases you would witness  the  signatures?  Yes.     Some cases  the  signature would  simply be  their  mark,   if   they were  unable  to make a  signature.  Yes.     And you prepared  the descriptions on  the  applications  in  consultation with  the Indian  applicants?  Yes.  And in each case the person who was applying would  agree with the description of the area for which  application was made?  Yes.  And as far as you were concerned — I'm sorry, I'll  rephrase that.  You explained to the Indian applicants  that you were registering the area with the provincial  government?  Yes.  Yes.  And did you — and did you explain to the  applicants that this would be a protection of their  interest in the area?  Yes.  And as far as you were concerned, these people whom  you represented understood and accepted that?  Yes.  There were one or two occasions when Indian  trapline owners contacted us and asked us to request a  game warden to go out to their trapping area to  resolve a dispute, and we made the request, and then  in due course the game warden went up there, settled  the matter to the best of his ability. 84  J.V. Boys (for Defendant)  Cross-exam by Mr. Mackenzie  1  Q  2  3  A  4  5  Q  6  7  8  9  A  10  Q  11  12  13  A  14  Q  15  A  16  Q  17  18  19  A  20  Q  21  A  22  Q  23  A  24  Q  25  A  26  Q  27  28  A  29  Q  30  31  A  32  Q  33  34  A  35  36  37  38  Q  39  40  A  41  Q  42  43  A  44  Q  45  46  47  A  Now, were you familiar with the concept of traditional  clan territories?  I understood that there — I had a basic understanding  of the crest system.  Now, what was your understanding of the — perhaps  I'll rephrase that.  When you say crests, you're  referring, I think, in your evidence to groups to  which Indians from several villages could belong —  Um hum.  — in effect?  Did you hear of the term "clan" being used at that  time —  Yes.  -- for that?  Yeah.  Yes.  Did you hear during your time of another  institution, that of the house, being in effect —  making up the clan?  I don't recollect the term being used.  Did you hear about the term "family grouping"?  Yes.  And several families making up a crest?  Yes.  Were you aware of that?  Yeah.  Do you have any knowledge of claims by families to  specific territories?  Yes.  And did you have any knowledge of claims by clans or  crests to territories?  Yes.  Well, while you were in Hazelton, which was the more  predominant institution?  Well, there were some areas marked on the trapline  maps as being held by, for instance, the Eagle Crest.  That was — that term was in use more, I think, than  any other.  And you've said that in assigning your trapline areas  you were concerned with logical registrants, correct?  Yes.  So you were not governed by boundaries of crest  territories in determining your logical registrants?  No.  During your time in Hazelton your principal contact  with Indian representatives was with band councillors  and chiefs, was it not?  To a great extent, yes, in the execution of business 85  J.V. Boys (for Defendant)  Cross-exam by Mr. Mackenzie  1 on behalf of the band.  But there was a good deal of  2 contact with individual families about family matters  3 and matters affecting their children, their children's  4 education.  5 Q  You had day-to-day contact with the people whom you  6 represented, didn't you?  7 A  Yes.  8 Q  You visited the villages at least once a week, as you  9 say?  10 A  Yes.  11 Q  You had teachers who reported to you living right in  12 the villages?  13 A  Right.  14 Q  They reported to you regularly?  15 A  Yes.  16 Q  Yes.  It was the band councils and councillors who  17 were most important in administering affairs on the  18 reserves?  19 A  Right, um hum.  20 Q  And their authority, generally speaking, was  21 restricted to reserve lands?  22 A  Yes.  23 Q  Did you come into contact with hereditary chiefs apart  24 from band councillors and elected chiefs?  25 A  Yes.  Yes, I did.  26 Q  It was the band councillors and elected band council  27 chiefs — sorry, I'll rephrase that.  Did the  28 hereditary chiefs have any say in the administration  29 of affairs on the reserves, to your knowledge?  30 A  Not in their capacity as hereditary chiefs.  However,  31 very often a hereditary chief might be elected as  32 either chief or councillor, and in that capacity then  33 he had — he had responsibility.  3 4    MR. MACKENZIE:  Yes.  3 5   MS. KOENIGSBERG:  I wonder if we might take a ten-minute break  36 at  this   time.  37 MR.   MACKENZIE:     Yes,   I'd be  pleased  to have a break.  38  39 (PROCEEDINGS   ADJOURNED  AT   11:30   A.M.)  40 (PROCEEDINGS   RECONVENED   AT   11:40   A.M.)  41  42 MR.   MACKENZIE:  43 Q  Now, you spoke about the movement of the people from  44 Kisgegas to Hazelton.  Do you recall that testimony?  45 A  Yes.  46 Q  And you mentioned there was no road access at that  47 time to the reserve on the Babine River, the Kisgegas 86  J.V.   Boys   (for Defendant)  Cross-exam by Mr.   Mackenzie  1 Reserve?  2 A   Yeah.  3 MR. MACKENZIE:  Well, is it not true that one of the reasons  4 people came down is because they had no access to  5 health services up there in the remote reserve?  6 MR. RUSH:  I object to that.  He can't answer that.  7 MR. MACKENZIE:  8 Q  There was no access to health services on the Kisgegas  9 Reserve, was there?  10 A  There were no resident health services on the Kisgegas  11 Reserve, no.  12 Q  There were no income — there were no employment  13 opportunities on the Kisgegas Reserve, were there?  14 A  No.  15 MR. MACKENZIE:  And the reason that people, to your knowledge,  16 that people came down from the Kisgegas Reserve was to  17 seek employment opportunities in the Hazelton area, as  18 one reason possible, to your knowledge?  19 MR. RUSH:  I object to that.  I think you're asking Mr. Boys to  20 speculate about what was in the minds of individual  21 people as to why they migrated from Kisgegas to  22 Hazelton.  You're asking him a bald opinion.  23 MR.   MACKENZIE:  24 Q  Did the people from Kisgegas ever express to you the  25 reasons why they left the Kisgegas Reserve?  26 A  I can't recollect that they did, but to me it was  27 self-evident.  28 Q  There was no opportunity to collect family allowance  29 on the Kisgegas Reserve, was there?  30 A  No opportunity to collect mail of any kind on the  31 Kisgegas Reserve.  32 Q  There were no schools or educational opportunities on  33 the Kisgegas Reserve?  34 A  No.  3 5 Q  And to your knowledge, did the people from Kisgegas  36 who moved to Hazelton take advantage of those services  37 while they were living in Hazelton?  3 8 A  Yes.  3 9 Q  And when I say those services, I mean educational  40 opportunities?  41 A  Yes.  42 Q  And employment opportunities?  43 A  Yes.  44 Q  And welfare payments?  45 A  I can't be sure about that.  46 Q  Family allowance payments?  47 A  The post office was at Hazelton. 87  J.V. Boys (for Defendant)  Cross-exam by Mr. Mackenzie  1  Q  2  A  3  Q  4  5  A  6  Q  7  8  A  9  Q  10  11  12  A  13  Q  14  15  A  16  Q  17  A  18  Q  19  A  20  Q  21  A  22  Q  23  24  25  26  A  27  Q  28  29  A  30  31  32  33  Q  34  35  36  A  37  Q  38  39  A  40  Q  41  A  42  Q  43  A  44  Q  45  46  47  The post office was at Hazelton?  Yes.  And the reason you say that is because the family  allowance cheques came in the mail?  Yes.  And your department wasn't involved in the  distribution of those —  No.  — cheques?  Okay.  Well, did you have occasion to visit the  Kisgegas Reserve while you were in Hazelton?  No, I didn't visit the Kisgegas Reserve.  And the reason you didn't visit the Kisgegas Reserve  was because no one was living there, correct?  I had no occasion to visit it specifically.  Is it fair to say that the reason was that —  Yeah.  — there was no one living there?  Yeah.  You visited all the other villages —  Yes.  — in your area?  Were you familiar with the movement of the people  from Kuldoe — the Kuldoe Reserve down into the  Kispiox and Hazelton Reserves?  No.  No.  Did you speak — did you have occasion to speak  to anyone who had participated in that migration?  I can't recall that — I recollect that somebody said  that they had at one time lived at Kuldoe, but I can't  tell you who it was, and I can't tell you anything  specifically about the conversation.  Now, you spoke about the — you spoke about your  personal activities in arranging for a school at  Hazelton?  Yes.  That was the first, if I may call it, integrated  school?  That was a joint school.  That was the term they used.  Yes, joint school.  Um hum.  Indians and white children attended?  Um hum.  And would it be fair to say that, to your knowledge at  any rate — I'll rephrase that question.  Did Indian  mothers ever express to you their support for  education of their children in that school? 88  J.V. Boys (for Defendant)  Cross-exam by Mr. Mackenzie  1 A  Indian mothers and fathers were very much in favour of  2 that school.  3 Q  Indian mothers were anxious to have their children  4 educated?  5 A  Yes.  6 MR. MACKENZIE:  They were anxious to have their children  7 educated and — in order that — I'll rephrase that  8 question.  They were anxious to have their children  9 educated in order to obtain employment opportunities?  10 MR. RUSH:  I object to that.  It's hearsay.  I think it's  11 permissible for Mr. Boys to gather an impression about  12 the favourability or support for the school, but there  13 may have been a wide range of reasons why people  14 supported the education of the young, and I think it's  15 hearsay and objectionable for that reason.  16 MR. MACKENZIE:  Did any Indian mothers ever express to you that  17 they wished their children to seek jobs as a result of  18 being educated, to have jobs as a result of being  19 educated?  20 MR. RUSH:  Isn't that the same question?  21 MR. MACKENZIE:  Yes, it is exactly the same question.  22 MR. RUSH:  It's still objectionable.  23 THE WITNESS:  I can't recollect specific conversations of that  24 nature.  25 MR. MACKENZIE:  26 Q   Okay.  27 A  I might say it was not a technical school.  I mean, it  28 was just basic education, grades 1 to 8.  29 Q  And Indian mothers and fathers, to your knowledge,  30 were anxious that their children be educated and join  31 the white society?  32 A  Certainly there were — they were interested in  33 participating in all of the activities of the — of  3 4 the community at Hazelton.  3 5 MR. MACKENZIE:  Many of the younger people adopted white  36 lifestyles?  37 MR. RUSH:  What do you mean by that, that they went to rock hops  3 8 or they put on used white bucks?  Maybe you should be  39 a little more specific.  40 MR. MACKENZIE:  41 Q  People lived in houses in Hazelton on the reserve?  42 A  Yes.  43 Q  They drove cars when cars became available?  44 A  Yes.  45 Q  They shopped in the stores and grocery stores when  46 they —  47 A  Yes. 69  J.V.   Boys   (for  Defendant)  Cross-exam by Mr.   Mackenzie  1  Q  2  A  3  Q  4  5  A  6  Q  7  8  9  10  A  11  12  Q  13  A  14  Q  15  16  A  17  Q  18  19  A  20  Q  21  A  22  Q  23  24  A  25  Q  26  27  A  28  Q  29  30  A  31  Q  32  33  A  34  Q  35  A  36  Q  37  38  A  39  Q  40  41  42  A  43  Q  44  45  46  A  47  Q  — became available?  Yes.  They — the Indian people used the post office service  in Hazelton, which you have indicated?  Yes.  Were there any other evidences of white lifestyle that  you can recall, generally speaking, during your time  in Hazelton that the Indians adopted or participated  in?  Well, the Indians took jobs alongside non-Indians and  worked under the same circumstances as non-Indians.  They worked as section men on the C.N.R.?  Yes.  They worked in pole camps along the Skeena and Bulkley  Rivers?  Yes.  As you mentioned, in some cases they set up sawmills  themselves?  In only — in only one case that I can recollect.  That's Fritz Harris and Pete Muldoe?  Yes.  Yes.  The Indian people certainly worked in the  sawmills, as you have indicated?  Yes, um hum.  And during your time in Hazelton the Indian people  generally complied with the trapping regulations?  Yes.  They generally  complied with  the  fisheries  laws  of  Canada?  Yes.  There was little or no evidence during your time of  civil disobedience or agitation —  No.  — by the Indian people in your agency?  No.  There was no agitation during the time that you were  Indian Superintendent about land claims?  No.  There was no expression of a jurisdiction or claims  over extensive areas outside the reserves by the  Indian people in your agency?  None that came to my attention.  And from your evidence already given, you had very  close contact with what was happening in the villages  in your agency?  Yes.  Do you recall any interest by the provincial 90  J.V.   Boys   (for  Defendant)  Cross-exam by Mr.   Mackenzie  1 government  in  trying  to  preserve  totem poles  in your  2 agency?  3 A  Not by the provincial government at that time.  There  4 was a visit by a gentleman from Ottawa named Marius  5 Barbeau, who was interested in Indian culture and  6 Indian totem poles.  He came from Ottawa.  7 Q  Did you know Mr. Barbeau or meet him?  8 A  I met him, yes.  9 MR. MACKENZIE:  Did he express to you his concern about  10 preservation of totsm poles?  11 MR. RUSH:  I object to that.  12 MR. MACKENZIE:  Mr. Barbeau now being deceased?  13 MR. RUSH:  That's right.  14 THE WITNESS:  Well, we talked about a variety of things.  I  15 spent an evening with him, and I can't — I couldn't  16 tell you exactly what — what the conversation was,  17 but it was generally about — you know — Indian  18 culture and so forth.  19 MR.   MACKENZIE:  20 Q  In fact — were you aware of the C.N.R. being involved  21 in the preservation of poles at Kitwanga?  22 A  No.  23 Q  In fact, some of the poles, to your knowledge, were  24 falling into disrepair?  25 A  Yes.  26 MR. MACKENZIE:  There appeared to be little interest among the  27 Indian people in preserving the poles —  28 MR. RUSH:  I object to that.  29 THE WITNESS:  — to your knowledge?  30 MR. RUSH:  It calls for a conclusion of Mr. Boys about all  31 Indian poles in respect of all of the villages, and if  32 you want to ask him about his specific knowledge in  33 respect to ones that he has specific knowledge of, go  3 4 ahead, but otherwise it's objectionable.  35 MR. MACKENZIE:  36 Q  Well, we can note the objection then.  37 A  There was no activity — there were a lot of poles  38 down in the Village of Kispiox, and there was no  3 9 activity toward re-erecting them or restoring them.  I  40 believe that there may have been a pole in Kitwanga  41 that was repainted during the time that I was there.  42 And there was some very excellent examples of poles in  43 Kitwancool that were in a fair state of preservation,  44 and I don't recollect any activity to — to do  45 anything to them during the time I was there, and I  46 don't recollect that there was really any necessity  47 for it. 91  J.V. Boys (for Defendant)  Cross-exam by Mr. Mackenzie  1 MR. MACKENZIE:  There was no distinction between the people of  2 Kitwancool and the other Gitksan people in your agency  3 in cultural — as far as culture?  4 MR. RUSH:  No distinction observed by Mr. Boys.  5 MR. MACKENZIE:  Yes.  6 MR. RUSH:  His understanding.  7 THE WITNESS:  No, but the people of Kitwancool were very keen to  8 insure that they were regarded and dealt with as  9 separate from the people of Kitwanga.  In order to get  10 to Kitwancool, you had to go through the Village of  11 Kitwanga, and the people of Kitwancool didn't have  12 some of the facilities that the Kitwanga people  13 enjoyed.  They didn't have a store.  They didn't have  14 a post office.  They did have a teacher, and they did  15 have a — they did have some drugs.  Usually the  16 Department of Health and Welfare left some drugs  17 for — such as aspirin, and iodine, and bandages and  18 that sort of thing, and the school teacher or else the  19 school teacher's spouse, if he or she was with the  20 school teacher, would act as a dispenser.  And they  21 had that, but they didn't have such things as a store  22 or — or a post office, and so they were dependent  23 upon going down several miles to Kitwanga for those  24 facilities.  25 MR. MACKENZIE:  26 Q  Were you aware of any disputes between the Gitksan  27 people and the Nishga people over territory during  28 your term of office?  29 A  No, not that I can recollect.  30 Q  Were you aware of Indian trading going on between the  31 Gitksan people and the people at the coast, the barter  32 system?  33 A  Trading?  3 4 Q  Yes.  3 5 A  No, I can't say I was.  I can't recollect any.  36 Q  During your time at Hazelton it — it happened that  37 Indian people of your agency would apply for Crown  3 8 grants of land from time to time?  3 9 A  I can recall one such case.  This was by an Indian  40 resident of Hagwilget, who applied for a Crown grant  41 of land in the vicinity of south Hazelton, that is  42 adjacent to the railway line.  I can't recall any  43 others.  44 Q       Were you  aware  that Fritz   Harris owned property   just  45 south of  Kispiox,   for  example?  46 A       Crown land?  47 Q       Yes. 92  J.V. Boys (for Defendant)  Cross-exam by Mr. Mackenzie  1 A  No, I don't recollect that.  I wouldn't necessarily be  2 involved with that in any way — in — anyways.  3 Q  Were you aware that Pete Muldoe owned land just to the  4 west of Kispiox on the west bank of the west shore —  5 west bank of the Kispiox River?  6 A  No, I don't recollect that either.  7 Q  Did you ever make any recommendations supporting the  8 application of Indians to obtain Crown grants of land?  9 A  Well, the one that I spoke of, and I — I can't  10 recollect the name of the Indian who made the  11 application for the Crown grant of land at south  12 Hazelton, but he asked for our assistance in making  13 the application, and we certainly rendered whatever  14 assistance we could.  15 Q  You were aware though as Indian Agent that such  16 applications could be made?  17 A  Oh, yes, absolutely.  No reason why an Indian couldn't  18 own or make application for land just as any other  19 citizen of the province could make.  20 Q  During your time at Hazelton did you have occasion to  21 use or to employ the services of Indian constables on  22 the reserves?  23 A  Well, we didn't employ Indian constables on the  24 reserve.  It was sometimes a custom in bands in  25 British Columbia for the — for the band council to  26 appoint somebody to act as a band constable, but we  27 didn't appoint them, and I can't recollect that there  28 were any among the Hazelton bands.  There quite  29 possibly were, but not that I can recollect at this  30 point.  31 MR. MACKENZIE:  Let me ask you about this.  I have this letter  32 at tab 15, red binder, a letter apparently from you  33 dated November 10, 1947.  34 MR. RUSH:  This is a document found in the federal defendant's  35 document list?  12572 is a federal government  36 document?  37 MR. MACKENZIE:  Yes.  3 8 MS. KOENIGSBERG:  That's my assumption.  We're the only ones in  3 9 the 1,200 range.  40 MR. WOLF:  12,000.  41 MS. KOENIGSBERG:  12,000.  42 THE WITNESS:  Well, that's evidently something — that evidently  43 is a letter that I wrote.  At least it's over my — my  44 name as Indian Agent.  I just — I apologize that  45 there are certain things that I just don't recollect  46 at this point.  47 MR. MACKENZIE: 93  J.V.   Boys   (for  Defendant)  Cross-exam by Mr.   Mackenzie  1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  MR.  Q  No, I don't say that in any sense of criticism.  I  just — no — just leave it with you to refresh your  memory.  That's the only reason that I put it to you.  Does that assist you in recollecting that there  were — at least on the Kitseguecla Reserve there was  an Indian constable employed?  A  Yes, there evidently were — there evidently were two,  if this recommendation was accepted.  But, as I say,  it was a practice throughout the province, and I just  simply cannot recollect which, if any, in that agency,  which bands had Indian constables and —  Q  Now, referring to that document of November 10, that  refreshes your memory that at least —  A  Yeah.  Q  — for Kitseguecla there was an Indian constable used?  A  Yes.  Q  Can you identify that letter as coming from your  office?  A  Well, I can identify it as being over my signature.  I  can't — I mean over my name.  And the indication is  that I dictated the letter, but I can't positively  recollect it.  Q  So is it fair to say that you probably —  A  Yes.  Q  -- dictated it?  A  Yes.  MACKENZIE:  I'll take that as a — on the basis of  reasonable probability and ask that that be marked as  an exhibit.  (EXHIBIT 30 - Letter dated November 10, 1947)  MR. MACKENZIE:  Q  You mentioned that you attended at band council  elections during your time in Hazelton?  A  Yes, yes.  Q  And it was the practice upon election of the chief and  councillor to have a — to have a declaration sworn  of — let me see if I can describe that — a  declaration relating to obedience of the laws and  carrying out the responsibility —  A  Yes.  Q  — of the office?  A  Yeah, they subscribed to some — some oath of office.  MR. MACKENZIE:  I just referred to tab 10 in the red binder.  MS. KOENIGSBERG:  I'll put it in front of the witness.  MR. MACKENZIE:  I think if we use this for exhibits. 94  J.V. Boys (for Defendant)  Cross-exam by Mr. Mackenzie  1 MS. KOENIGSBERG:  Oh, sure.  2 MR. MACKENZIE:  3 Q  Starting at tab 10.  The first document at tab 10 is a  4 declaration of Christopher Harris apparently witnessed  5 by Mr. Mallinson?  6 A  Yes.  7 Q  Are you able to identify Mr. Mallinson's signature?  8 A  It's pretty messy, but it appears to be the signature.  9 Q  And the next page is a declaration of Moses Morrison,  10 also —  11 A  Um hum.  12 Q  — apparently witnessed by Mr. Mallinson.  Are you  13 able to identify Mr. Mallinson's signature there?  14 A  Yes.  15 Q  The next one is Edward H. Benson, and the signature of  16 the witness is illegible?  17 A  Yes.  18 Q  Do you recall witnessing that declaration?  19 A  No.  20 Q  All right.  The next one is Mr. Wallace Morgan, and it  21 appears that is dated April 25, 1947.  It appears that  22 you witnessed that.  Can you identify your signature  23 there?  24 A  Yes, I can.  25 Q  The next one is David L. Wells, dated April 25, 1947.  26 Can you recognize your signature there, identify that?  27 A   Yes.  28 Q  The next document is a letter from you dated May 23,  29 1947.  Can you identify your signature on that letter?  30 A  Yes.  31 Q  And that's reporting on the election at Kitwanga, is  32 it not?  33 A  Yes.  3 4 Q  And the next document is the band council resolution  35 of the Glen Vowell Band, June 3, 1947.  Can you  36 identify your signature on that document?  It's —  37 sorry about the illegibility.  3 8 A  Yes.  Yes, I think that's my — my signature.  3 9 Q  And the next document is a declaration of James Woods  40 dated June 3, 1947?  41 A  Right.  42 Q       Can you  identify  that?  43 A       Yes.  44 Q  The next document is a band council resolution of the  45 Kitwancool Band dated February 13, 1948?  46 A  Yes.  47 Q  Can you identify your signature on that? 95  J.V. Boys (for Defendant)  Cross-exam by Mr. Mackenzie  1  A  2  Q  3  4  5  A  6  Q  7  8  A  9  Q  10  11  12  A  13  Q  14  15  A  16  Q  17  18  A  19  Q  20  21  22  A  23  Q  24  25  A  26  Q  27  A  28  Q  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  A  37  Q  38  39  A  40  41  42  43    MR. MAC  44  45  46  47  Not positively.  No.  Fine.  We'll skip over that one.  And the next —  skip over the next one.  The next one I'm referring to  is a Tsitsk, T-s-i-t-s-k, Band Council resolution —  Yes.  — March 3,   1948.     Can you  identify your  signature on  that  one?  Yes.  So it was your practice to, as you say, have such  documents executed following the election of band  councils of the bands in your agency?  Yes.  And that was one of the responsibilities of your  position as Indian Agent —  That's correct, yes.  — and the duty that you discharged at the time of  each election for band councils?  Yes.  And the final letter in that tab is one from Mr.  Jutras dated June — January 12, 1952.  Can you see  that?  Yes.  Mr. Jutras, as you mentioned, was your immediate  successor at Hazelton?  Yes.  And can you identify his signature?  No.  Okay.  In his final paragraph on page 2 of his letter,  dated January 12, 1952, Mr. Jutras says:  "I would advise that 95 per cent of this band  earned their livelihood from fishing and  logging."  He's referring there to the Kitwanga Band?  Um hum.  Can you confirm that that indeed was the case during  your term of office at Hazelton?  I'm not sure about the percentage, but a very great  majority of them earned their living from — mostly  from fishing, and — and the next largest percentage  would be from logging or pole cutting.  NZIE:  Well, I'd like to exhibit that tab and take out  the documents that you did not identify.  Can we go  off the record?  (OFF THE RECORD DISCUSSION) 96  J.V. Boys (for Defendant)  Cross-exam by Mr. Mackenzie  1 MR. MACKENZIE:  We have agreed that there are eight pages in tab  2 10 of this red binder.  These are extracts from A.G.  3 B.C. document 37 97.  And I'm submitting those eight  4 pages, plus the cover page identifying the documents,  5 as the next exhibit, number 31.  6  7 (EXHIBIT 31 - Tab 10 of red binder, extracts from A.G. of B.C.'s  8 document 37 97)  9  10 MR. MACKENZIE:  You remarked during your testimony on the  11 cultural differences or on the fact of cultural  12 differences between the Gitksan Indians of the Skeena  13 Valley and the Carrier Indians of the Bulkley Valley.  14 MR. RUSH:  He said to the east.  15 MR. MACKENZIE:  16 Q  To the east.  And when you said to the east, you were  17 referring to the Carrier Indians at Moricetown and  18 Hagwilget?  19 A  And Babine.  20 Q      Yes.     To the —  that group included  the Carrier  21 Indians  at Moricetown  and  Hagwilget,   for  example?  22 A       Yes.  23 Q  And also on Lake Babine?  24 A  Yes.  25 Q  At Fort Babine?  26 A  Old Fort.  27 Q  Yes, and Old Fort?  28 A  And Topley Landing.  29 Q  And Topley Landing.  Yes.  So I was incorrect when I  30 said Fort Babine.  And what did you mean when you said  31 that there were differences between those groups and  32 the Gitksan people?  33 A  Well, the Carrier Indians did not — did not use a  34 clan or crest system.  They had not traditionally  35 erected totem poles.  I don't think back in time that  36 they had lived in long houses as the — as the Gitksan  37 Indians and the coastal Indians, the northern coastal  3 8 Indians, had.  3 9 Q  I wonder, when making your — when making your  40 comments on this question, I'm interested in your  41 personal observations and observations as a result of  42 your time at Hazelton.  And what was the basis of the  43 observations which you've just made?  44 A  Well, I'm simply stating an historical fact that the  45 Indians of those particular areas did at one time live  46 in groups of families in long houses, and I don't  47 think that — historically that the Carrier Indians 97  J.V. Boys (for Defendant)  Cross-exam by Mr. Mackenzie  1 ever did.  2 Q  I see.  During the time — sorry.  I beg your pardon.  3 A  In my time they were not living in — they were living  4 separately as families.  5 Q  Did you — during your time did you observe any  6 cultural differences between the Carrier people and  7 the Gitksan people?  8 A  Cultural being a way of life, a lifestyle, I would say  9 yes, that the — that the Indians along the Skeena  10 were primarily a fishing group of people.  They earned  11 their living through fishing, and the Indians of the  12 interior earned their living more from trapping and —  13 and other pursuits, such as logging and so forth.  14 Q  What makes you say that the Carrier Indians did not  15 use a clan or crest system?  16 A  Just my own observation.  17 Q  Now, you commented that — we'll be breaking — this  18 is probably going to be the last question.  I think  19 we'll break at 12:30, if that's convenient for other  20 people.  You commented in your evidence on the close  21 contacts you had with the Indian people in your  22 agency.  In your dealings with the Indian people did  23 they use their English names?  24 A  Yes, for the most part, with the exception of some of  25 the very old people.  26 Q  And it was your observation also that the younger  27 people were the members of the Indian community who  28 were adopting a white type of lifestyle as opposed to  29 the old Indian customs?  3 0   MR. RUSH:  Whatever all that means.  31 A  Well, there was some resentment.  There was — there  32 were a number of Indians, to my knowledge, whose  33 parents were living in a household in which there were  3 4 also their grandchildren, and their grandchildren  3 5 would attend school and come home and speak in  36 English, and, to my knowledge, that was resented by  37 some of the very old people.  They wanted the children  3 8 to come home and continue to speak in the Indian  3 9 language.  They resented the children turning on a  40 radio and enjoying what they heard over the radio  41 other than music because the elderly people didn't  42 understand it.  I don't know whether that answers your  43 question.  44 MR.   MACKENZIE:     Well,   we'll break  at  that point  then  for  the  45 noon adjournment,   please.  46  47 (PROCEEDINGS   ADJOURNED  AT   12:30   P.M.) 98  J.V. Boys (for Defendant)  Cross-exam by Mr. Mackenzie  1 (PROCEEDINGS RECONVENED AT 2:00 P.M.)  2  3 MR. MACKENZIE:  4 Q  We were speaking this morning about the amalgamation  5 of the Kisgegas and the Hazelton Indian Bands, and you  6 recall that discussion?  7 A  Yes.  8 Q  And in addition, about that time the members of the  9 Kisgegas Band agreed to surrender the mineral rights  10 on the Kisgegas Reserve also; do you remember that?  11 A  Yes.  12 Q  And I'll just direct your attention to tab 15 or — I  13 beg your pardon — tab 14 in the red book.  This is a  14 document from Attorney-General of Canada's document  15 list.  I just don't have the number here, but it was  16 provided to me from Canada's list earlier this week.  17 And this is a document entitled "Surrender of  18 Minerals."  It's dated January 12, 1948, and can you  19 identify your signature on that second page?  20 A  Yes.  21 Q       And was  this  the  surrender  of minerals on  the Kisgegas  22 Reserve?  23 A  Yes, it was the surrender of the Indians' rights to  24 the Crown in that an Indian band is not a legal  25 entity, and if a prospector or a company wished to do  26 some prospecting on Indian land, it was customary in  27 order to enter into an agreement for the benefit of  28 the Indians to formulate an agreement between the  29 Crown on behalf of the Indians and the company wishing  30 to prospect, and that normally was the purpose.  There  31 was similar surrenders of surface rights for the  32 benefit of leasing on behalf of Indian either bands or  33 individuals.  That was quite a common practice.  3 4 Q  Now, can you recall circumstances at that time — the  35 idea was to enable the Crown to lease rights on the  36 Kisgegas mineral reserve to people — to white or  37 Indian prospectors?  3 8 A  Yes.  3 9 Q  Is that the idea?  40 A  Yes.  41 MR. MACKENIE:  Could we mark that document as the next exhibit,  42 please, Exhibit 32?  43  44   (EXHIBIT 3 2 - Surrender of Minerals dated January 12, 1948)  45  46 MR.   MACKENZIE:  47 Q  Referring to page 2 of Exhibit 3 2 now, beside your 99  J.V. Boys (for Defendant)  Cross-exam by Mr. Mackenzie  1  2  3  4  A  5  Q  6  7  A  8  C  9  A  10  Q  11  12  13  14  A  15  Q  16  17  18  A  19  Q  20  21  A  22  23  Q  24  25  A  26  c  27  A  28  Q  29  A  30  Q  31  32  A  33  Q  34  35  A  36  Q  37  38  A  39  Q  40  A  41  Q  42  A  43  Q  44  A  45  Q  46  A  47  signature as witness are seven other signatures, and  you were present when those signatures and marks were  affixed?  Yes.  That was your practice, to be present when documents  such as this —  Um hum.  — which you witnessed —  Yes.  Sorry, I think I'll rephrase that question.  It was  your practice, when you were signing documents such as  this as witness, you would be present to witness the  signatures affixed?  Yes.  Yes.  You would not sign your name as witness to a  document like this if the people — the people's names  and marks were not affixed in your presence?  That's correct.  Now, do you know — did you know these people?  William Jackson?  Yes, I knew them from — from some of my business at  the time.  Yes.  So William Jackson apparently put his mark on  there.  Is that your handwriting —  Yes.  — writing his name?  Yes.  And also William Mowatt the same.  And that is also your handwriting?  Yes.  You witnessed those two gentlemen putting their mark  on that document?  Yes.  And Simon Morrison is the second name.  Did you know  Simon Morrison?  Yes.  The third name — the third name is William — is it  William McCann?  Yes, I think so.  M-c-C-a-n-n possibly?  Um hum.  Did you know William McCann?  Yes, I knew all of these people.  And Sam Morrison, you knew him?  Yes.  He was Simon's son.  Did you know that?  I can't recall exactly what the relationship might  have been. 100  J.V. Boys (for Defendant)  Cross-exam by Mr. Mackenzie  1 Q  Robert Jackson, did you know him?  2 A  Yes.  3 Q  And Jonah Green?  4 A   Yes.  5 Q  Yes.  And these gentlemen were some of the surviving  6 members of the Kisgegas Band at that time?  7 A  Yes.  8 Q  This was a majority of the surviving male members of  9 the Kisgegas Band?  10 A  It was a majority of the available surviving members.  11 I think that probably the total membership of the  12 band, as I recollect, was about 40, including men,  13 women, and children.  And I think there were nine or  14 ten families living at Hazelton.  They didn't have an  15 elected council at Kisgegas.  They simply had a group  16 acting on behalf of all the people at Kisgegas.  17 Q  At tab 12 of this ~ let's refer first to tab 11 of  18 this binder, the red binder.  There is a Hazelton Band  19 Council Resolution dated May 1948.  The date is  20 unclear.  21 A   20th of May, 1948.  22 MS. KOENIGSBERG:  It's quite clear on my copy, Mr. Mackenzie.  23 THE WITNESS:  Well, in the — not in the heading, but in the  24 body of the —  25 MR. MACKENZIE:  26 Q  Yes.  Is that your signature on the bottom of that  27 document?  28 A  Yes.  29 Q  The document that I have doesn't appear — or the  30 signatures of the councillors aren't legible.  31 A  No.  3 2 Q  But was a band council resolution in these terms  33 signed by the chief and councillors of the Hazelton  3 4 Band?  3 5 A  Yes.  36 Q  Okay.  And you witnessed their signatures?  37 A  Yes.  3 8 Q  And this is the — this is the agreement of the  39 Hazelton Band to the amalgamation with the Kisgegas  40 people?  41 A  Yes.  42 MR.   MACKENZIE:     Mark  that  as  the  next  exhibit,   please.  43 MR.   RUSH:     Maybe we  should  find  out who  the  signatories were.  44 MR.   MACKENZIE:  45 Q  At this time can you recollect who the signatories  46 were?  47 A  No.  My only recollection is that the chief was 101  J.V. Boys (for Defendant)  Cross-exam by Mr. Mackenzie  1 Leonard, but I can't recollect who all the councillors  2 were.  3 MR. MACKENZIE:  Well, perhaps Canada will be able to find a copy  4 of that document.  This particular document is drawn  5 from A.G. B.C. 3824.  6 MS. KOENIGSBERG:  We'll look and see if we can find a better  7 copy.  8 MR. MACKENZIE:  Mark that as the next exhibit, 33.  9  10 (EXHIBIT 33 - Hazelton Band Council Resolution dated May 20,  11 1948, drawn from A.G. of B.C. document 3 824)  12  13 MR. MACKENZIE:  I'm referring to the document at tab 12 of the  14 red binder.  This is a document, Kisgegas Band Council  15 Resolution, dated January 12, 1948.  It's a partial  16 copy of that document and A.G. B.C. 3 824.  And your  17 signature does not appear legibly on — on this band  18 council resolution?  19 MR. RUSH:  Or at all.  20 MR. MACKENZIE:  21 Q  Or apparently at all in this portion of the  22 resolution?  23 A  No.  24 Q  This is a band council resolution apparently agreeing  25 to the amalgamation of the Hazelton and Kisgegas  26 Bands.  Do you recall such a resolution being  27 executed?  28 A  Yes.  And the — the name William Jackson is in my  29 handwriting, he made his — he made his cross, which  30 proves that I was present at the time that his  31 signature was made.  32 Q  And that goes also for William Mowatt, one of the  33 signatories?  3 4 A  Yes, that's correct.  35 Q  Okay.  So looking at this document of January 12,  36 1948, and having made that observation, can you say —  37 can you identify this document as one that was  3 8 executed in your presence?  39 A  Yes.  40 MR. MACKENZIE:  I submit this as the next exhibit.  41  42 (EXHIBIT 3 4 - Kisgegas Band Council Resolution dated January 12,  43 1948)  44  45 MR.   MACKENZIE:  46 Q  The next document is at tab 13 of the red binder.  47 This is a letter dated February 22, 1949.  It appears 102  J.V. Boys (for Defendant)  Cross-exam by Mr. Mackenzie  1 to be a file copy of a letter to the government agent  2 at Smithers.  May I ask you to read over that letter?  3 A  Yes.  4 Q  Is this a letter that you wrote to the government  5 agent supporting Mrs. Naas' application to own land?  6 A  Well, it has my name on it, and it has my initials  7 indicating that I probably dictated it, and I have  8 some recollection of writing to Ken McRae, the  9 government agent at Smithers, on behalf of an elderly  10 lady at Telkwa, but it's — you know — that's as far  11 as I can go in identifying positively that — that I  12 wrote it because it doesn't have my signature on it.  13 Q  So as a result of those observations would you say  14 it's probable that was sent by you —  15 A  Yes.  16 Q  ~ to Mr. McRae?  17 A  Um hum.  18 MR. MACKENZIE:  I submit that as the next exhibit.  19  20 (EXHIBIT 35 - Letter dated February 22, 1949, to Mr. McRae from  21 Mr. Boys)  22  23 MR. MACKENZIE:  24 Q  Now, referring to tab 5 of the red binder, this first  25 letter is a letter dated January 20, 1951?  26 A  Um hum.  27 Q  And can you identify Mr. Appleby's signature on the  28 response at the bottom of that letter?  The response  29 is dated January 22, 1951.  30 A  Yes, that's Mr. Appleby's signature.  31 Q  This appears to be a letter first from Mr. Cox to Mr.  32 Appleby dated January 20, 1951, and a reply from Mr.  33 Appleby —  34 A  Um hum.  35 Q  — to Mr. Cox dated January 22, 1951.  And the second  36 paragraph of Mr. Appleby's response, could you read  37 that over, please?  38 A  Yes.  39 Q  Mr. Appleby's saying there that he has little sympathy  40 for Indians or white people trapping without  41 registration —  42 A  Um hum.  43 Q  — and that they — he says both Indian and white  44 people — have had all kinds of opportunity to  45 register a line or become a member of some existing  46 registration. Was that the case, to your knowledge,  47 by the time you left Hazelton at the end of your term 103  J.V. Boys (for Defendant)  Cross-exam by Mr. Mackenzie  1 there?  2 A  Oh, I think — yes, I think they had plenty of  3 opportunity to — to register their traplines if — if  4 they wished to.  5 Q  You're talking about the Indian people whom you  6 represented?  7 A  Yes.  8 MR. MACKENZIE:  Mark that page then as the next exhibit.  9  10 (EXHIBIT 36 - Letter dated January 20, 1951, from Mr. Cox to Mr.  11 Appleby, with reply to letter dated January 22,  12 1951, from Mr. Appleby to Mr. Cox, one page)  13  14 MR. MACKENZIE:  15 Q  The next letter is on your name.  It's a file copy of  16 a letter from you to Mr. Cox dated January 10, 1951,  17 and the signature — the initials on there are "ama,"  18 and those are Mr. Appleby's signature —  19 A  That's correct  20 Q  — initials?  21 A  That's correct, um hum.  22 Q  And that letter — this copy is on the Department of  23 Citizenship and Immigration Indian Affairs letterhead?  24 A  Yes.  25 Q  Can you identify this as a letter that was sent by —  26 on your behalf to Mr. Cox?  27 A  I can only say that it — it appears to be.  It — but  28 there is no way of positively identifying it.  29 Q  Have you had a chance to review the — have you had a  30 chance to look it over?  31 A  Yes.  32 Q  Yes.  Can you say that this was probably sent from  33 your office —  3 4 A  Yes.  35 Q  — to Mr. Cox?  36 A  Yes.  It's the sort of work that we were doing  37 consistently through that period, trying to cover any  3 8 area that was not registered in an Indian name.  39 MR. MACKENZIE:  Mark that letter as the next exhibit, Exhibit  40 37, please.  41  42    (EXHIBIT 37 - Letter dated January 10, 1951)  43  44 MR. MACKENZIE:  45 Q       In his  final paragraph Mr.   Appleby —  on page 2  Mr.  46 Appleby appears  to  say:  47 104  J.V. Boys (for Defendant)  Cross-exam by Mr. Mackenzie  1 "If you could give me any definite data on  2 these areas that would enable me to go ahead  3 and have them registered by some of our  4 Indians I would be very grateful."  5  6 A  Yes.  7 Q  And that reflects your policy during your term?  8 A  Um hum.  9 Q  To register all the Indian trapping areas?  10 A  Yes.  11 Q  Yeah.  And now turning over to the letter dated  12 January 23, 1951, from Mr. Appleby to Mr. Cox —  13 A  Um hum.  14 Q  — can you identify Mr. Appleby's signature on that  15 letter?  16 A  Yes.  17 MR. MACKENZIE:  Mark that as the next exhibit, please.  18  19 (EXHIBIT 38 - Letter dated January 23, 1951, from Mr. Appleby to  20 Mr. Cox)  21  22 MR. MACKENZIE:  23 Q  So in this matter, to your knowledge, Mr. Appleby was  24 acting on behalf of Henry Wright and Alfred Gordon  25 Wright, who were the applicants for this registration?  26 A  Yes.  27 Q  And according to the practice in your office, this  28 would have been cleared and agreed to with Henry  29 Wright and Alfred Gordon Wright, the application?  30 A  Yes.  31 MR. RUSH:  You should ask him if he knows if it was.  32 MR. MACKENZIE:  33 Q  Well, it was the practice in your office to seek  34 agreement by the people on whose behalf you were  35 registering traplines, was it not?  36 A  Yes.  37 q  It was the invariable practice, was it not?  3 8 A  It would be most unlikely that any application would  3 9 be made on behalf of an Indian or Indians without  40 prior consultation and their — their agreement, in  41 fact their willingness to seek a registration of that  42 area.  43 Q  Now, the next document is an Application for  44 Registration of a Trapline dated October 25, 1948.  45 Could you turn over to that one, please?  46 A  October?  47 Q  October 25, 1948.  Just keep turning over.  Now, this 105  J.V. Boys (for Defendant)  Cross-exam by Mr. Mackenzie  1 is an application on behalf of Chris Skulsh or —  2 correction — it's actually Isaac Skulsh & Company?  3 A  Um hum.  4 Q  Can you identify your signature on that document?  5 A  Yes.  6 Q  And you see there Chris Skulsh has signed; is that  7 correct?  8 A  Yes.  9 Q  And Isaac Skulsh.  Did you know Isaac Skulsh?  10 A  I can't remember him, but Margaret Harris, who  11 witnessed his mark —  12 Q  Yes.  13 A  — is an Indian —  14 Q  Yes.  15 A  — who worked in my office.  16 Q  Yes.  Can you identify her signature there?  17 A  Yes.  18 MR. MACKENZIE:  Mark that as the next exhibit, please.  19  20 (EXHIBIT 39 - Application for Registration of a Trapline dated  21 October 25, 1948, two pages)  22  23 MR. MACKENZIE:  24 Q  The next document is a Cancellation of a Registered  25 Trapline dated October 17, 1951.  Could you turn over  26 to that page?  27 A  You don't want this one?  28 Q  The document — perhaps we should do that.  Exhibit 3 9  29 has been marked as the front page of the Chris Skulsh  30 application?  31 A  Um hum.  32 Q  The page following is the back of that application.  33 It should be included in Exhibit 39.  Exhibit 39,  34 therefore, has two pages, really the front and back of  35 the application.  36 A  Actually, that's the confirmation from the game  37 department of the acceptance of that registration.  3 8 Q You're referring to the second page of Exhibit 3 9?  3 9 A  Yes.  40 Q  And that was the practice in all these trapline  41 application cases?  42 A  Yeah.  43 Q  You would be advised of the confirmation by the game  44 department?  45 A  Yes.  46 Q  And this document would be returned to your offices?  47 A  Yes. 106  J.V. Boys (for Defendant)  Cross-exam by Mr. Mackenzie  1 Q  You would have this on file in your offices?  2 A  Yes.  3 Q  And the Indian people whom you were representing would  4 advise you of the members to go on the trapline?  You  5 see on page 2 of Exhibit 3 9 the members are set out  6 there?  7 A  Yes, Isaac Skulsh and Chris Skulsh, the name of the  8 original applicants.  9 Q  Yes.  10 A  Jointly.  11 Q  That's correct.  The Indian people would tell you the  12 members of the company or the trapline —  13 A  Um hum.  14 Q  — that they wished to have on the application?  15 A  Yeah.  I think — I think Chris was Isaac's grandson.  16 Q  Moving over to the next document, it's the  17 cancellation dated October 17, 1951.  And can you  18 identify Mr. Appleby's signature?  19 A  Yes.  20 Q  And he was signing as the administrator of Isaac  21 Skulsh's estate, correct?  22 A  Yes.  23 Q  And you also did that from time to time?  24 A  Yes.  25 Q  In this case he's applying for cancellation in favour  26 of Chris Skulsh, heir to the estate; is that correct?  27 A  Yes.  2 8 Q  And you also did that from time to time, did you not?  29 A  Yes, um hum.  30 Q  Yes.  And this was a case where the trapline was being  31 passed on to the heir to the estate of someone who  32 apparently had died intestate; is that fair to say?  33 A  Yes.  3 4 Q  The reason you say that is because Mr. Appleby was  35 signing as administrator, correct?  36 A  Right, um hum.  37 Q  And — well, mark that as an exhibit, please.  3 8 Following the front page of that Isaac Skulsh  3 9 cancellation is the reverse — a copy of the reverse  40 of that document, is that correct, to the best of your  41 knowledge?  42 A  Yeah.  43 MR. MACKENZIE:  So mark that as Exhibit 40 with two pages,  44 please, front and back.  45  46 (EXHIBIT 40 - Application for Cancellation of Registered  47 Trapline dated October 17, 1951, two pages) 107  J.V. Boys (for Defendant)  Cross-exam by Mr. Mackenzie  1 MR. MACKENZIE:  2 Q  Now, turning over to tab 6 in the red binder, can you  3 identify your signature on that document?  4 A  Yes.  5 Q  I'm handing you the original copy of that.  I'd just  6 like you to confirm that the photocopies — well, I'm  7 purporting that the photocopy in the red binder is a  8 copy of the front and reverse of that document,  9 Jonathan Johnson's application dated December 23,  10 1948.  11 A  Yes, um hum.  12 Q  And you're looking at the original now, and that's a  13 document that you would have filed in your offices?  14 A  Yes, it's — we would have the red copy of this, and  15 we would forward the other three copies.  I think the  16 other three copies were original white, then blue and  17 yellow, and we would keep the red copy for our office.  18 Q  You would have a copy returned to you with the  19 confirmation of the game department on it?  20 A  Right.  Um hum.  21 MR. MACKENZIE:  This is a — this particular document is drawn  22 from A.G. B.C. 1276.  Could we mark that?  23 MR. RUSH:  May I see that, please?  24 MR. MACKENZIE:  Yes.  25 THE WITNESS:  Do you want — do you want this marked?  26 MR. MACKENZIE:  Just a minute, please.  If Mr. Rush has no  27 objection, I would like to mark the copy in your red  28 binder.  29 MR. RUSH:  Go ahead.  30  31 (OFF THE RECORD DISCUSSION)  32  33 (EXHIBIT 41 - Application for Registration of a Trapline dated  34 December 23, 1948, two pages)  35  36 MR. MACKENZIE:  37 Q  Now, there is a sketch plan following Exhibit 41.  I'm  38 handing the original to you.  This again is A.G. B.C.  3 9 33 57.  Now, that type of plan was returned to you with  40 the confirmation of the application, was it not?  41 A  Yes, initially.  A similar sketch plan would be sent  42 with the application, and then it would be subject to  43 amendment perhaps, according to the game department  44 files and game branch files, and an amended sketch  45 plan sent back for our files. We were required to  46 send a similar document in order to — in fact, this  47 is not a copy of this.  The one on — 108  J.V. Boys (for Defendant)  Cross-exam by Mr. Mackenzie  1 MR. RUSH:  Sorry, you were this and this.  2 THE WITNESS:  The original — this is not a copy of this  3 original map.  This probably is a plan that went from  4 our office because we used elite type, and this is not  5 elite type.  6 MR. RUSH:  Which type?  7 THE WITNESS:  Elite.  This small type is called elite.  8 MR. MACKENZIE:  9 Q  Fine.  I'll do the cross-examination and Mr. Rush will  10 do his cross-examination.  Now, this document that  11 you're referring to, the photocopy, is a photocopy of  12 the — of the original that I handed to you, and it's  13 a copy drawn from the Attorney-General of British  14 Columbia document 3357.  So that's the original, and  15 that's the photocopy, what you have in front of you.  16 But your point is that you would send a sketch map  17 along with your application form to the game  18 department, correct?  19 A  Yes.  20 Q  And then the game department would return to you a  21 confirmed trapline application with another sketch  22 plan, possibly revised or certainly confirmed —  23 confirming the area described in the trapline  24 application; is that fair to say?  25 A  Yes, that's correct.  26 Q  Yes.  27 A  Um hum.  28 Q  Okay.  Now, this document that you're looking at, the  29 sketch plan, as I say, is drawn from the provincial  30 government files.  You say the — you have a comment  31 about the typing on that?  32 A  It doesn't appear to be the same — the same size  3 3 type.  34 Q  Yes, yes.  Fine.  So that wasn't — that wasn't a type  35 that was done in your office? That wasn't typed in  36 your office?  37 A  This wasn't, no.  3 8 Q  You're referring now to the original?  3 9 A  Yes.  40 Q  Yes.  41 A  The original wasn't.  42 Q  Yes.  Okay.  Fine.  I'll give the original to Mr.  43 Rush.  He may want to take a look at it.  I'm not  44 going to mark that copy — well, let me — let me talk  45 to you about the copy then that you have in your red  46 binder.  Is there any way that you can identify the  47 copy of that document, that sketch plan, which is — 109  J.V. Boys (for Defendant)  Cross-exam by Mr. Mackenzie  1 which is entitled "Jonathan Johnson & Company" and it  2 has the date December 23, 1948?  3 A  No, I can't identify it.  4 Q  Okay.  That's fine.  Now, in this case of Exhibit 41,  5 where Jonathan Johnson's signature and your signature  6 appear on the front of Exhibit 41, would you have been  7 present when Jonathan Johnson signed that?  8 A  Yes.  9 Q  And you — it was your practice to explain the  10 contents of the application form to the Indian who was  11 applying for trapline registration?  12 A  Yes.  13 Q  Yes.  So in the case of Jonathan Johnson, on the basis  14 of your invariable — sorry — on the basis of the  15 practice in your office, can you say it was probable  16 that you explained the contents of this application  17 form to Jonathan Johnson before he signed the  18 application?  19 A  Yes, it was probable that we worked together to  20 establish on the map exactly what he was applying for.  21 MR. MACKENZIE:  Yes.  22 MR. RUSH:  Do you have the original of this?  23 MR. MACKENZIE:  Yes, I just handed it over to you.  24 MR. RUSH:  Thank you.  25 MR. MACKENZIE:  Okay.  Now, I have — at tab 17 I have a series  26 of application forms that I'd like to just go through  27 without marking them individually.  28 MS. KOENIGSBERG:  I'm sorry, tab what?  29 MR. MACKENZIE:  Tab 7.  30 MS. KOENIGSBERG:  You said tab 17.  31 MR. MACKENZIE:  32 Q  I beg your pardon.  The first one is dated June 19,  33 1947, and there are three pages, consisting of the  34 first page with the trapline description folded up,  35 second page with the trapline description unfolded,  36 and the third page being the reverse of the  37 application form.  Now, it was your practice to affix  3 8 the trapline descriptions on these pieces of paper,  3 9 was it not?  40 A  Yes.  Where there wasn't enough room to put the whole  41 description on the — on the form, we would type it on  42 a separate piece of paper and paste it on to the — on  43 to the trapline or the application form.  44 Q  Can you identify your signature on the Bob Skawill,  45 S-k-a-w-i-1-1, application?  46 A  Yes, um hum.  47 Q  And in this case the witness was Mr. Janze. 110  J.V. Boys (for Defendant)  Cross-exam by Mr. Mackenzie  1 A  No, that's Marie Janze.  2 Q  Marie Janze?  3 A  Yes.  4 Q  J-a-n-z-e?  5 A  Yes.  She was a clerk in my office who lived in  6 Hazelton.  7 Q  And the next document is an application of James  8 Blackwater dated May 4, 1948.  It consists of two  9 pages, front and reverse.  Can you identify your  10 signature on that document?  11 A  Yes.  12 Q  The next document is Philip Ryan, dated October 25,  13 1948.  Can you identify your signature on that  14 document?  15 A  Yes.  16 Q  Okay.  That consists of three pages again.  The next  17 document is Kathleen Gunanoot, dated February 21,  18 194 9.  It consists of two pages.  Can you identify  19 your signature on that document?  20 A  Yes.  21 Q  And skipping over to William Smart, dated May 27,  22 1949, three pages, can you identify your signature on  23 that document?  24 A  Yes.  25 Q  Skipping over to Alex Green, dated August 19, 1949,  26 can you identify — sorry, two pages — can you  27 identify Mr. Appleby's signature on that document?  28 A  Yes.  29 MR. MACKENZIE:  And that's all that I'll deal with in that tab.  30 That will finish us off.  I'd like to mark that tab as  31 an exhibit, and I would like to withdraw or take out  32 from that tab the documents we haven't identified.  33 Could we go off the record to do that, please.  34  35 (OFF THE RECORD DISCUSSION)  36  37   MR. MACKENZIE:  This tab 7 in the red binder consists of 15  3 8 pages of trapline applications, and that should be  39 marked as the next exhibit, 42.  40  41   (EXHIBIT 42 - Tab 7 of red binder, trapline applications)  42  43 MR. MACKENZIE:  For abundance of caution, I'll just list the  44 trapline applications.  Skawill, S-k-a-w-i-1-1,  45 Blackwater, Ryan, Gunanoot, Smart, Green.  Okay.  Do  46 you want to break there now?  47 MS. KOENIGSBERG:  Sure. Ill  J.V. Boys (for Defendant)  Cross-exam by Mr. Mackenzie  1 (PROCEEDINGS ADJOURNED AT 3:05 P.M.)  2  3 I hereby certify the foregoing to be  4 a true and accurate transcript of the  5 proceedings herein to the best of my  6 skill and ability.  7  8  9  • Aik - . w-    J >■».'.:£  L0 Leanna  Smith  LI Official  Reporter  L2 United Reporting  Service Ltd.  L3  L4  L5  L6  L7  L8  L9  20  21  12  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  11  42  43  44  45  46  47

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