Delgamuukw Trial Transcripts

Cross-Examination on Affidavit of Frederick Wale British Columbia. Supreme Court Dec 16, 1988

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 <3Jn tiit ^upvtmt Court irf ^BritiBlj Columbia  Na 0843  Smithers Registry  Smithers, B. C.  December 16, 1988  BETWEEN  AND:  DELGAMUUKW, also know as KEN MULDOE,  suing on his own behalf and on behalf  of all other members of the HOUSE OF  DELGAMUUKW, and others,  Plaintiffs;  HER MAOESTY THE QUEEN IN RIGHT OF THE  PROVINCE OF BRITISH COLUMBIA and  THE ATTORNEY-GENERAL FOR CANADA,  Defendants.  CROSS-EXAMINATION ON AFFIDAVIT  OF  FREDERICK WALE  i*"*"* ****»—• ■«*»     •*«      MMM    IfW MA1PI1 1HIM.I I   UlUWDim   ■ l»  UTf iliJ   BIUI MR MM <31n tiit §&uprtmt Court of JJritwlj Columbia  Nq 0843  Smithers Registry  Smithers, B. C.  December 16, 1988  BETWEEN  AND  DELGAMUUKW, also know as KEN MULDOE,  suing on his own behalf and on behalf  of all other members of the HOUSE OF  DELGAMUUKW, and others,  Plaintiffs;  HER MAJESTY THE QUEEN IN RIGHT OF THE  PROVINCE OF BRITISH COLUMBIA and  THE ATTORNEY-GENERAL FOR CANADA,  Defendants.  CROSS-EXAMINATION ON AFFIDAVIT  OF  FREDERICK WALE  P.R. Grant, Esq. and  M. Adams, Esq.  CJ.M. Mackenzie, Esq.  3.A. Macaulay, Esq.  appearing for the Plaintiffs  appearing for Her Majesty the  Queen in Right of the Province  of British Columbia  appearing for the Attorney  General of Canada  »mi^ m+wmnmr ««*%  1 lAUMVtin • /» vmr iuj j*aj% t EXHIBITS  INDEX  NO  DESCRIPTION  PAGE  3  4  5  Last Will and Testament of William  Wale and six sketches  Public Archives of Canada Document  dated 1932  Genealogy of the house of Gwoimt  Sketch  Letter dated June 10, 1935 from  Muirhead to Mortimer  Letter dated July 17, 1935 from  Mortimer to Muirhead  21  45  46  50  50  50  WITNESS  WALE, Frederick  Cross-examination by Mr. Macaulay  Cross-examination by Mr. Mackenzie  Re-examination by Mr. Grant  1  36  45 1  F.   Wale   (for  Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr.   Macaulay  1 SMITHERS, B.C.  2 December 16, 1988  3  4 FREDERICK WALE, a witness herein  5 called on behalf of the  6 Plaintiffs, having been duly  7 sworn, testifies as follows:  8  9 S. HOWARD: Interpreter previously  10 sworn  11  12 CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR. MACAULAY:  13 Q   Your name is Frederick Wale?  14 A   Yes.  15 Q Where  do you live,   Mr.   Wale?  16 A   Hazelton.  17 Q   And what is your occupation?  18 A   Culture co-ordinator.  19 Q   With the Tribal Council?  2 0 A   No, I think it is involved with human resources, you  21 know, with Tribal Council.  22 Q   Well, are you a member of the public service?  23 A   No.  24 Q   Well, which organization is your employer?  2 5 A   Well, I guess the Tribal Council.  26 Q   In other words, who writes the pay cheques?  27 A    They do.  2 8 Q   The Tribal Council?  29 A   The lady that works there, our boss.  30 MR. GRANT:  Do you wish a clarification of that?  31 MR. MACAULAY:. Well, yes..  32 MR. GRANT:  I don't want to intervene, but I can assist you.  33 There is a society known as the Wilp Sisatxw  34 Society.  And my instructions are that in terms of  35 the formal employer of this witness that Wilp  36 Sisatxw Society is his employer.  37 THE WITNESS:  Yes.  3 8    MR. MACAULAY:  39 Q   How long have you been working for that society?  40 A   Just a little over six months.  41 Q   And before that what was your occupation?  42 A   I was a home school co-ordinator.  43 Q   And who was your employer there then?  44 A   Different bands.  Like I was working for the whole  45 band.  I was working with DIA at first and then  46 Tribal Council, and I was working for Tribal Council  47 from '70 on. F.   Wale   (for   Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr.   Macaulay  1 Q    From 197 0 on?  2 A   Yes.  3 Q   And was your employer ever the Department of Indian  4 Affairs?  Did you ever work as a direct employee of  5 Indian affairs?  6 A   No, they were just assisting.  7 Q   And what were your duties before you took on the  8 present — your present job six months ago from 197 0  9 on?  10 A   I was making carvings in K"san.  I took that for  11 three years.  I was just finishing my apprentice  12 when I took this job.  I was idle in between, but I  13 couldn't tell you the months I was idle.  14 Q   Now, you mentioned 197 0, the year 197 0.  Was that  15 the year that you started carving?  16 A   No.  17 Q   What were you doing in 1970?  18 A   I was a counsellor then, home school co-ordinator.  19 Q   Home school co-ordinator?  20 A   Yes.  21 Q   And what schools did you deal with?  22 A   I dealt with provincial and federal schools.  23 Q   And what were your duties as home school  24 co-ordinator?  What did you do?  25 A   Well, I focused on students that were dropping out,  26 native students.  27 Q   Yes.  And did you actually give them instruction?  28 A   Yes.  29 Q   Those students?  30 A   Yes.  31 Q   And at what level were these students? Were they  32 high school students or grade school students?  33 A   It starts right from kindergarten right up to high  34 school students.  3 5 Q   So you had the whole range of students?  36 A   Yes.  37 Q   And did you give them academic instruction?  3 8 A   Yes, I give them direction to encourage them to  3 9 finish their high school.  4 0 Q   And for how many years were you a home school  41 co-ordinator before you started carving?  42 A   14 years.  43 Q   14 years.  So that would be 1970 to 1984, is that  44 about right?  45 A   Yeah, something in that line.  46 MR. MACAULAY:  And the curriculum that your students were  47 following, was that the provincial curriculum F. Wale (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Macaulay  1 studies?  2 MR. GRANT:  Well, he said he worked with both federal schools  3 and provincial schools so maybe you want to divide  4 up that question.  5 MR. MACAULAY:  6 Q   All right.  We will go to federal schools first.  7 What were the federal schools you dealt with?  You  8 mentioned federal schools?  9 A   Schools on the reserve level where there was schools  10 right on the reserve.  11 Q   On the reserve?  12 A   Yes.  13 Q   That's what you were calling federal schools?  14 A   Yes.  15 Q   And those were primary schools, were they?  16 A   Primary up to Grade 8, yeah.  17 Q   Up to Grade 8.  And what curriculum were they  18 following? What sort of subjects were they taking?  19 A   They were taking the regular subjects.  20 Q   Were there any additional subjects that you wouldn't  21 find in a primary school in Smithers, for instance?  22 A   No.  23 Q And your  students who were  in high  school,   were  24 they —   those were high  schools  off   the reserve,  2 5 were  they?  26 A Yes.  27 Q And  they were  following  the  ordinary provincial  28 curriculum;   is   that  right?  29 A Yes.  3 0 Q   Now, in 19 84 you started training as a carver?  31 A   Well, I couldn't remember the exact year.  32 Q    About 1984?  33 A   Well, I can't say.  34 Q   Did you stop being a home school co-ordinator when  35 you started your training as a carver?  36 A   I didn't stop, no, they had their own — they hired  37 their own home school co-ordinators on a reserve  3 8 level because it was too high case for me.  I just  39 kind of did myself out of a job by going that  40 direction.  41 Q   Well, after you stopped being a home school  42 co-ordinator then you started taking carving?  43 A   Yes, after.  44 Q   And was that at K'san?  45 A   Yes.  46 Q   Which carvers did you work with?  47 A   I worked with Kenny Mowatt, Earl Muldoe, Walter F.   Wale   (for  Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr.   Macaulay  1 Harris, Vern Stevens.  2 Q And you spent about three years doing that?  3 A Yes.  It wasn't — it was in that area.  4 Q And in the last six months you've got the employment  5 with the society that Mr. Grant mentioned?  6 A Yes, Wilp Sisatxw.  7 Q And what are your duties now? What do you do?  8 A When I first got hired on I was the maintenance.  9 Now they moved me to cultural co-ordinator.  10 Q And what groups do you work with as cultural  11 co-ordinator?  12 A The Wilp Sisatxw has been in co-operation.  We will  13 be starting January 30th.  14 Q So you haven't yet taken up your ordinary duties; is  15 that right?  16 A Well, I'm putting it together, carving plus singing  17 Indian songs or traditional way of life.  18 Q You know there used to be a group at K'san that did  19 that, the songs, dancing and that kind of thing; is  20 that right?  21 A Yes.  22 Q Now, is your society taking that over?  23 A No.  No.  24 Q Does that group still continue?  25 A K'san —  26 Q The K'san —  27 A — dancers?  2 8 Q Dancers?  29 A Yes, they are performing during the summer months at  3 0 K'san.  31 Q Do you have anything to do with that organization,  32 K'san Dancers?  33 A Yes.  34 Q Is it the plan to organize similar groups?  35 A No.  36 Q Well, when your society gets going, when its  37 programme starts developing, will it deal with  38 individuals at the cultural level or will it be  39 forming groups?  40 A It will be both.  41 MR. MACAULAY:  It will be both.  Is one of the objects of the  42 society to teach the Gitksan language?  43 MR. GRANT: Which society?  44 MR. MACAULAY:  This present society.  45 MR. GRANT: Wilp Sisatxw Society?  46 MR. MACAULAY:  47 Q Yes. F. Wale (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Macaulay  1 A I can't say on that.  2 Q Do you speak Gitksan?  3 A Yes.  4 Q You learned that at home, did you?  5 A Yes.  6 MR. GRANT: The witness, by the way, may need some help in some  7 questions and Miss Howard may help in some  8 questions.  9 MR. MACAULAY:  10 Q Fine.     Was your  father Mr.   William Wale?  11 A Yes.  12 Q And what house did he belong to?  13 A Ganauu, Lax seel.  14 Q And your mother is Kathleen Wale?  15 A Yes.  16 Q And she is the head chief of your house?  17 A Yes.  18 Q That's  Gwoimt?  19 A Gwoimt.  20 Q Was Austin Mathews the head chief of your house at  21 one time?  22 A Yes.  23 Q Did your mother  succeed to the name when Austin  24 Mathews died?  2 5 A She was next in line.  26 Q She was next.  And do you have a name in your house?  27 A Yes.  2 8 Q What is your name?  29 A Dii Haatix.  30 MR. MACAULAY:  What are the other chiefs in your house?  31 MR. GRANT: Who are they?  32 MR. MACAULAY:  33 Q Well, who are they?  Their English names and also  34 their chief's names?  35 A Well,   I  can't —  I  can just name by  English.  36 Q Well,   let's  do  the English names?  37 A Sadie  Harris,   my   sister.  38 Q Yes.  39 A And  Howard.  40 Q Howard Wale?  41 A Howard Wale,   my brother.  42 Q Yes.  43 A And Wilfred Wale,   my brother.  44 Q Yes.  45 A And since my late brother is deceased, my younger  46 brother took Dee from Wally Wale.  47 Q Wally Wale? 6  F.   Wale   (for  Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr.   Macaulay  1 A   Yes.  2 Q   Dee is the name and my younger brother has that name  3 now.  4 Q   Now, Wally has a chief's name?  5 A   Yes.  6 Q   And how about Bernard, he has a chief's name too?  7 A   Well, it is the same name.  Wally is deceased and  8 now Bernard has got that name, my younger brother.  9 Q   So Bernard has that?  10 A   Yes.  11 Q   Which name has he got?  12 A   Dee.  13 MR. MACAULAY:  That's D-I-I?  14 THE INTERPRETER:  D-E-E.  15 MR. MACAULAY:  16 Q   D-E-E.  Is there a chief's name in your house that's  17 spelled D-I-I?  18 A   That would be the English spelling.  19 MR. MACAULAY:  Well, I'm not making it up.  It comes from an  20 interrogatory.  21 MR. GRANT:  Well, I think in terms of the word person and the  22 spelling in interrogatories may not be — I think  23 Miss Howard can clarify if that's the same as D-E-E.  24 MR. MACAULAY:  Is that the same?  25 THE INTERPRETER:  Well, his starts Dii Haatix.  His name is  26 D-I-I, new word, H-A-A-T-I-X, that's Fred's name.  27 But for Wally it will be D-E-E.  2 8 MR. MACAULAY:  2 9 Q   What's Howard's name, chief's name?  3 0 A   I don't know offhand.  31 Q   And how about Wilfred? What's his name?  32 A   Then again, I have got it down on paper.  33 Q   Well, you can find out is what you are saying?  34 A   No, I can find out, but there is so many names  3 5 that —  36 MR. MACAULAY:  It is hard to keep track of them all.  37 MR. GRANT:  I can just —  3 8 MR. MACAULAY:  39 Q   No, I've got the name.  How about Sadie Harris,  4 0 what's her name, her chief's name?  41 A   I don't know that.  42 Q   Have you a nephew named Shawn Harris?  43 A   Yes.  44 Q   He was born in about 1973, is that about right?  45 A   He would be about nine years old or ten.  No, he  46 will be 12 or 13.  47 Q   Does he have a chief's name? 7  F.   Wale   (for  Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr.   Macaulay  1 A Yes.  2 Q And what's that?  3 A He took Phillip Johnson's name, but I couldn't  4 remember his name either.  5 Q Phillip Johnson was a member of your house?  6 A Yes.  7 Q He is dead now?  8 A Yes.  9 Q And Phillip Johnson lived up near Meziadin, did he,  10 for many years?  11 A He lived in Hazel ton when I knew him.  12 Q In Hazelton?  13 A Yes.  I was pretty young then.  I just barely  14 remember him.  15 Q Well, where were you born?  16 A Hazelton.  17 Q And have you lived all your life in or around  18 Hazelton?  19 A In or around Hazelton area, yes.  20 Q Did your mother ever tell you where she lived in the  21 1920's?  22 A She lived around Hazelton too.  23 Q And were you ever told where Phillip Johnson lived  24 before he moved to Hazelton?  25 A No.  26 Q The job you  obtained in 197 0  as home  school  27 co-ordinator,  was   that your first job?  28 A No.  29 Q What did you do before that?  30 A I did a lot of different jobs.  I was working  31 underground at Silver Standard as a minor.  3 2 Q Yes.  33 A I worked as a clerk at the hardware store which was  34 run by late Bill Sergeant in Hazelton for nine  35 years.  36 Q Yes.  37 A I was truck driving for Mosh & Brothers in Hazelton  38 for I couldn't remember how many years.  39 Q Is that pretty well —  40 A I'm a commercial fisherman from my dad, but I never  41 kept that too long.  I'm not in for that kind of  42 work.  43 Q You went to the coast with your father?  44 A Yes, he was a commercial fisherman.  45 Q And when did you start going to the coast?  How hold  46 were you when you started going to the coast?  47 A I was 16 perhaps.  Oh, younger than that, pardon me. 3  F. Wale (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Macaulay  1 Q And your father had his own boat?  2 A No, they were all company boats.  3 Q And did you work on the same boat the first season  4 you went down to the coast? Did you work on the  5 same boat as your father?  6 A I was working on the cannery too.  7 Q At the cannery?  8 A Cannery.  9 Q And how many years did you go to the coast?  10 A I couldn't remember that.  I was down there just for  11 summer months, hey.  12 Q From the end of April to —  13 A June, July, August.  14 Q And you started when you were about 14?  15 A Well, I couldn't remember.  I was pretty young.  16 Q Did your mother go down to the coast as well?  17 A Yes.  18 Q And did she work in the cannery then?  19 A Yes, she retired she was a cannery worker.  2 0 Q But she worked for many years at the cannery?  21 A Yes, she did.  22 Q How old were you when you stopped going to the  23 coast?  24 A 1947 was the last time I was down there.  25 Q And after that you had a series of jobs?  26 A Yes.  27 Q The ones you've mentioned?  28 A Mh'm.  29 Q What level did you reach in school before you left  30 the school?  31 A I wasn't told what level I reached.  I was below —  32 they passed me Grade 10, but it wasn't Grade 10  33 because I was in school half a day at residential  34 school and worked half a day on a farm.  3 5 Q Did you ever go back to any school after that?  36 A I attended home school co-ordinator's course in  37 Vancouver.  38 Q How long a course was that?  3 9 A Just for summer months.  40 Q And that was before — what in 197 0?  41 A During the period of time I worked with — as a home  42 school co-ordinator.  43 Q Oh, while you were working as a home school  44 co-ordinator?  45 A Yes.  46 Q Now, did you know Austin Mathews?  47 A Yes. F.   Wale   (for  Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by  Mr.   Macaulay  1 Q And  he was  a very  active  trapper?  2 A Yes.  3 Q And your father was an active trapper?  4 A Yes.  5 Q Did you go trapping with your father?  6 A Yes.  7 Q And for how many years did you trap with JfadLm?  8 A I can't say how many years, hut there was quite a  9 number of years I travelled with my father.  10 MR. MACAULAY:  Well, when is the last time you went trapping?  11 MR. GRANT: With his father or at all?  12 MR. MACAULAY:  13 Q At all?  14 A Well, I'm still trapping.  15 Q You are trapping today?  16 A Well, not today, but I had traps out about a month  17 ago.  I was skinning beaver out by my cabin out that  18 area.  19 Q Have you been trapping every year since you started  2 0 going out on the trapline with your father?  21 A Yes, off and on.  22 Q Did your father have a trapline up near the  23 Kitwancool territory?  24 A Yes.  25 MR. GRANT: Registered trapline you are referring to?  26 MR. MACAULAY:  27 Q Well, was it —  2 8 A Up there as far as I know.  29 Q Was it a registered trapline?  3 0 A That I didn't know.  I didn't ask him.  31 Q But he went trapping out there?  32 A He was quite active out that way.  My mom also knows  33 the area too.  34 Q But that was not Gwoimt's territory?  35 A No, but she travelled with him.  3 6 Q Yes.  And that was a trapping area that belonged to  37 your father's house?  3 8 A Yes.  39 Q This trapping area by the Nass River?  40 A In that area, yes.  41 Q And you trapped up there with your father, did you?  42 A No.  43 Q The only —  44 A My brother did,   late  Clarence did.  45 Q Was  that your eldest brother,   Clarence?  46 A No.     He -would be the  third oldest.  47 Q Now,   you've  seen your house's  genealogy? F. Wale (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Macaulay  1 A   Yes.  2 Q   And did you notice that Clarence isn't on it?  3 A   I never really noticed.  4 Q   There is no particular reason for that?  5 A   He is deceased.  6 MR. GRANT:  Just a moment.  You should show it to Mr. Wale.  7 MR. MACAULAY:  Off the record.  8  9 (DISCUSSION OFF THE RECORD)  10  11 MR. MACAULAY:  12 Q   Well, I have shown you a copy of genealogy that your  13 counsel has provided us for your house.  Your name  14 is there and all your brothers and sisters except  15 for one; is that right?  16 A   That's right.  17 Q   You don't know why that is?  18 A   They must have just slipped.  It must have been an  19 error.  2 0 Q   When did he die?  21 A    '77.  22 MR. MACAULAY:  Now, your father made a will —  23 MR. GRANT:  That's the genealogy of Gwoimt dated January 20,  24 1988.  25 MR. MACAULAY:  That's it.  26 MR. GRANT:  Just for the record, that's what the witness was  27 looking at.  2 8 MR. MACAULAY:  29 Q   Your father made a will, last will and testament?  3 0 A Yes.  31 Q And you were  one  of   the beneficiaries  in the will?  32 A   Yes.  33 Q   And you saw a copy of the will after he died, did  34 you?  35 A   Yes.  36 MR. MACAULAY:  Now, did he leave his trapline to Clarence?  37 MR. GRANT:  Can I look at the will?  I don't necessarily want to  3 8 object to the question, I just want to look at the  39 document.  40 MR. MACAULAY:  Off the record.  41  42 (DISCUSSION OFF THE RECORD)  43  44 MR. MACAULAY:  Now, did your father leave his trapline to your  45 brother Clarence?  46 MR. GRANT:  In the will?  47 MR. MACAULAY: 11  F. Wale (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Macaulay  1 Q   In the will? You can look at it if you want.  2 A   It's on the will.  3 Q   It's on the will?  4 A   Yes.  5 Q   You saw a copy of this will after your father died?  6 A   Yes.  7 MR. MACAULAY:  And the trapline that your father was referring  8 to was the one up on the Nass?  9 MR. GRANT:  Well, just a moment.  I think that it refers to  10 sketch 5.  And I think that that — based on what  11 you've informed me, Mr. Macaulay, that these  12 sketches in this file are the attachments to the  13 will, I think then the will plus that sketch speaks  14 for itself to the extent that that sketch can speak  15 for itself because there is no description in the  16 will of the trapline and then there is a sketch.  It  17 is either the one up there or it is another one.  I  18 think the document speaks for itself.  19 MR. MACAULAY:  Well, yes, now that you've referred to the will  20 and the sketch, the sketch in this file shows the  21 Nass River.  But I'm not asking this witness to  22 interpret the sketch or to interpret the will.  I am  23 asking him what his personal knowledge of these  24 family affairs is, and either he knows or he  25 doesn't.  26 MR. GRANT:  Okay.  If you frame your question that way, of  27 course that's different.  I just don't want him to  2 8 interpret the document, that's all.  29 MR. MACAULAY:  You've looked at a copy of your father's will in  30 my file.  You've seen the sketch, but I'm not asking  31 you about that.  32 MR. GRANT:  He didn't look at the sketch.  He hasn't seen the  33 sketch.  34 MR. MACAULAY:  35 Q   You can look at the sketch too if you want.  But  36 what I am asking you is from your personal  37 knowledge, your knowledge of your family affairs,  3 8 did the trapline that Clarence inherited, was that  39 the trapline on the Nass River?  40 A   Yes, according to the understanding I have.  41 Q   And did Clarence trap up there?  42 A   Yes.  43 Q   And he used to go up there with your father while he  44 was still alive?  45 A   Yes.  46 Q   And that is when your father was still alive he  47 brought Clarence with him up to the Nass? 12  F. Wale (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Macaulay  1 A Yes.  2 Q And did Clarence continue to trap up there after  3 your father died?  4 A That I can't say.  5 Q He  never  told you?  6 A No.     We  don't keep  track of   each other  that  close.  7 Q Where  did Clarence live  after your father  died?  8 A He  lived down  commercial   fishing in Hazelton.  9 Q He  also lived in Hazelton?  10 A Yes.  11 Q Was the late James White a member of your house?  12 A No.  13 Q Did you know him?  14 A My grandfather.  15 Q What house was he?  16 A Lax seel.  17 Q Well,   that's  his  clan.  18 A Lax   seel.  19 Q That's his clan, but what was the name of the house  20 he belonged to?  21 A Oh, that I don't know.  22 Q Do you know anything about his fishing station, that  23 is James White's fishing station, where it was?  24 A No.  25 Q He had daughters?  26 A Yes, my mom.  Yeah, mom and late Mariah White.  27 MR. MACAULAY:  Yes.  And did your mother ever tell you that she  28 inherited his fishing station or stations, that is  29 James White's fishing station?  3 0   MR. GRANT: Just to be clear, are you talking about — can you  31 give some geographic relationship to this?  You've  32 been talking about coastal fishing and you are now  33 talking about fishing station, so are you talking  34 about something on one of the rivers?  3 5   MR. MACAULAY:  Fishing station in the claim area.  36 MR. GRANT: So it would be one of the fishing stations on the  37 claim area.  3 8    MR. MACAULAY:  3 9 Q Perhaps we can start with that question again.  Did  40 your mother ever tell you that she inherited from  41 her father, her father James White's fishing station  42 in Gitksan country?  43 A She never talked to me about it.  44 Q So you never —  45 A But they have fishing areas, but she didn't say that  46 she inherited.  I can't say.  47 Q Well, your house has traditional fishing stations? 13  F.   Wale   (for  Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr.   Macaulay  1 A   One.  2 Q   One?  3 A   Yes.  4 Q   And where are they?  5 A   There is one located up near An Lagaas sim daex that  6 is up near Kisgagaas where I have got my cabin.  7 Q   Any others?  8 A   Not that I am aware of.  There might be others.  9 Q   You know Wilmer Johnson?  10 A   To see him, yes.  11 Q   You know him to see him?  12 A   Yes.  13 Q   Does he live in Hazelton?  14 A   Yes.  15 Q   And do you know his chief's name?  16 A   No.  17 Q   Do you know what house he belongs to?  18 A   He belongs to the Wolf Clan.  19 MR. MACAULAY:  That's his clan, but his wilp, what is —  20 MR. GRANT:  Maybe Miss Howard can translate the question.  21 THE WITNESS:  No, I don't know.  22 MR. MACAULAY:  23 Q   What is the connection or the relationship between  24 Gwoimt and Tsabux?  Perhaps you can translate that.  25 A   Who is Tsabux?  26 Q   Well—  27 A   I have heard the name, but I can't place it.  Is  28 that Wilmer Johnson?  No, I don't think so.  29 Q   Mr. Wale, we have an affidavit that your counsel has  3 0 given us and it is sworn by Mr. Wilmer Johnson.  He  31 in this affidavit says that his chief's name is  32 Tsabux.  In fact, he puts it the other way around.  33 He says:  "I, Tsabux, also known as Wilmer Johnson  34 make oath and say..." and then he goes onto depose  35 to certain things.  Clearly you didn't know that  36 Wilmer Johnson was Tsabux, did you?  37 A   Tsabux, I have heard him in the feast house, but I  38 didn't remember at the time when you asked.  39 MR. MACAULAY:  And what do you know about the Tsabux house?  40 MR. GRANT: What do you mean by that question?  41 MR. MACAULAY:  42 Q   Well, I'll be more specific.  Perhaps I'll refer to  43 Mr. Wilmer Johnson's affidavit again.  In this  44 affidavit he says — no, that's not quite accurate.  45 His affidavit had attached to it some answers to  46 questions called interrogatories.  He was asked  47 certain questions, and in answer to one of the F. Wale (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Macaulay  1 questions he said:  2  3 "In 195 8 or 1959 when I received the name  4 Tsabux I shared the house with Gwoimt."  5  6 And it is the latter part of his answer that I want  7 to ask you about.  He says he shares with Gwoimt.  I  8 want to know what he shares and how he shares and  9 why he shares with Gwoimt.  10 A   Oh, Wilmer is close related to mom.  11 Q   Yes.  12 A   Whenever there is a feast put up by the Wolf Clan,  13 that's when they join together on contributing  14 towards that feast.  And they are related in that  15 way or they are close.  16 Q   Is Gwoimt close to any other house?  17 A   No, just —  18 Q   Tsabux?  19 A   Tsabux and the family, the brothers and sisters.  20 Q   Did you know Fanny Robinson?  21 A   Late Fanny Robinson?  22 Q   Yes.  You did know her?  23 A   I was pretty young then.  24 Q   Well, according to my note she died in 1958.  Does  25 that sound about right?  26 A   I can't say.  27 Q Do you know what her chief's name was?  28 A No.  29 Q   Or what her wilps was, her house?  30 A   No.  31 Q   Now, have you read the answers your mother gave to  32 interrogatories, questions that were put to her by  33 the Province of British Columbia in this lawsuit?  34 Have you read those?  35 A   Not really, no.  36 MR.   MACAULAY:     Well,   now,   in answer  to one  of   the questions your  37 mother identified  two  territories as Gwoimt  38 territories.  3 9   MR. GRANT:  Do you know what question you are referring to?  40 MR. MACAULAY:  59C.  One of them was described as Xsu wii  41 Binaast to Glacier Creek.  You in your affidavit  42 have identified Xsi'an Binaast as Shewililba Creek?  43 MR. GRANT:  I would ask if the Gitksan words you are referring  44 to be given by Miss Howard.  45 MR. MACAULAY:  46 Q   Sure.  47 A   He said it should be Xsi Getsit is Glacier Creek. 1 t;  F. Wale (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Macaulay  1 That's all part of the boundaries.  2 MR. MACAULAY:  If we could have that spelled.  3 MR. GRANT:  What number is Xsi Getsit?  4 THE INTERPRETER:  It is number 2 on your Rivers and Creeks in  5 the affidavit.  6 MR. MACAULAY:  But the English name is Shegisic Creek?  7 THE INTERPRETER:  Yes.  8 MR. GRANT:  Just a moment.  I think there is some confusion.  9 Well, I can leave it for re-direct, but I will raise  10 it.  11 MR. MACAULAY:  12 Q   Well, I am asking the witness what he understands  13 Glacier Creek to be.  I am not suggesting any  14 particular answer to him and if he wants to consider  15 that again or does he stay with his answer that it  16 is —  17 A   There is two different names described on there.  18 That map shows Glacier and the affidavit shows  19 different.  20 Q   Well, Mr. Wale, my map doesn't show a Glacier Creek,  21 and that's why I'm asking the question.  22 A   The forestry called it Glacier Creek.  23 MR. GRANT:  I think the confusion may be that the reference to  24 Glacier Creek may or may not be — it may be a local  25 name.  It may or may not be on your topographic  26 maps.  I didn't want you to be mislead so that's why  27 I am endeavouring to intervene.  I was not trying to  2 8 change the witness' answer.  29 MR. MACAULAY:  30 Q   My understanding of it now is what is known on the  31 ordinary Canada maps as Shegisic Creek is the same  32 creek as —  33 A   Xsi Getsit, it is the same creek.  34 Q   Number 2.  And that's Glacier Creek on forestry  3 5 maps?  36 A   Forestry named it that, and I don't know if it is on  37 the map.  3 8 MR.   MACAULAY:     Well,   as  long as we  are   talking about  the  same  39 creek.     Now,   this  same — what your mother actually  4 0 said,   the  description  she  gave regarding  that  41 territory was  she   said:  42  43 "Runs from Xsu wii Binaast to Glacier Creek on  44 the Babine Slide."  4 5 MR. GRANT:  Can that be translated.  And I am only requesting it  46 because when I used Gitksan words he did not  47 understand them. 16  F. Wale (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Macaulay  1  MR.  2  3  4  5  MR.  6  THE  7  8  MR.  9  10  THE  11  MR.  12  13  MR.  14  15  MR.  16  MR.  17  THE  18  MR.  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  MR.  47  MACAULAY:  Q   I have no objection at all.  A   He says that it isn't Xsu wii Binaast, it is Xsi  Getsit that runs on the Babine Slide side.  MACAULAY:  I don't think I heard that.  What was his answer?  INTERPRETER:  He said that that is not Xsi'an Binaast, it is  Xsi Getsit that is on the Babine Slide side.  MACAULAY:  You mean Glacier Creek is on the Babine Slide  side?  INTERPRETER:  Mh'm.  GRANT:  Well, he was saying Xsu wii Binaast is on the Babine  side.  MACKENZIE:  No, I'm sorry, that's not what he is telling  you.  GRANT:  Well, that is what Madam Translator just said.  MACKENZIE:  That's not what she said.  INTERPRETER:  Xsi Getsit is Glacier Creek.  MACAULAY:  Q    I understand.  So your mother should have, in your  opinion, used the word "side" after the word "slide"  in this answer?  A   It is roughly 13 miles west where the slide is at.  Q   The slide is well outside your territory?  A   Yeah, the slide is 13, 14 miles east of Glacier  Creek.  That's where the boundary comes down.  Q   So you believe that's a misprint?  A   Yes.  Q   It should read "side" instead of "slide"?  A   Well, Xsi Getsit should be Glacier.  Q   Now that we are both looking at this interrogatory  answer, you notice there is another territory  described Gitah gwalxw?  A   Gitan gwalxw.  Q   Where is that?  A   Up by the Swan Lake area.  Q   And have you ever been there?  A   No.  No, I hunted in there, but I have never trapped  in there.  Q   Is that a Gwoimt territory?  A   Yes.  Q   And you don't describe that territory in your  affidavit?  A   No.  Q   Why is that?  A    I wouldn't know.  MACAULAY:  Does any member of your family use that territory  now? 17  F.   Wale   (for  Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr.   Macaulay  1 MR.   GRANT: The  house  or  family?  2 MR. MACAULAY:  3 Q I am talking about the family.  It is a big family.  4 A The family, they use it.  5 Q Yes.  Which one of your brothers or sisters uses  6 that area?  7 A Well, that would be Sadie's — my younger sister's  8 children.  They hunt up in that area.  9 Q Do they hunt moose?  10 A Yes.  11 Q Do they trap there?  12 A That I don't know.  13 Q You haven't heard?  14 A Well, I never questioned them.  15 Q But they have told you that they hunt up there?  16 A Well, that's where they hunt.  They don't go and  17 hunt just any place.  18 Q And they hunt there because it is Gwoimt's  19 territory?  20 A They hunt there because they are concerned about the  21 area and Gwoimt owns the territory.  22 Q Is there a claim to that territory by the Kitwancool  23 people?  24 A At one time I guess they did.  2 5 Q And where does that stand, that claim?  26 A That is before my time.  You don't take my word on  27 it.  It is just what mom said they went to court and  2 8 they won the court case on account of that they were  29 in that area way before my time.  3 0 Q Who went to court?  31 A Gwoimt.  32 '  Q Gwoimt did?  33 A Yes.  The chief at that time.  34 Q Yes.  And they won that lawsuit —  3 5 A Yes.  3 6 Q — that they started?  37 A Yes.  38 MR. GRANT: Well, I don't know if it was a lawsuit.  39 THE WITNESS:  It was taken up in court.  40 MR. MACAULAY:  Well, a proceeding in a court that's what the  41 witness said.  42 MR. GRANT: The witness described it as a court proceeding.  43 MR. MACAULAY:  44 Q And is your mother claiming that territory in this  45 action, in this lawsuit?  46 A That I don't know.  47 Q Now, which — what are the names of the rivers and 18  F. Wale (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Macaulay  1 valleys in that Gitan gwalxw territory?  2 A That's a different area all together.  I haven't  3 been up that way.  I just hunt up there.  4 Q You go up there yourself?  5 A I sport fished up there quite a few years ago.  I  6 know just approximately where it's at.  There is a  7 cabin there, a landmark apparently.  It is supposed  8 to be still there, I don't know.  9 Q And is there a valley in that territory?  10 A That I can't say.  11 MR. MACAULAY:  Well, are there any — do you know the names of  12 any lakes in that territory?  13 MR. GRANT: English or Gitksan?  14 MR. MACAULAY:  15 "   Q Either?  16 A All   I  know  is  that Gitan  gwalxw,   that's  the  17 territory.  18 Q But that's the name of the whole territory?  19 A I am not familiar with that area myself.  Mom is.  20 She trapped up there.  21 Q But you have been there yourself?  22 A Just sport fishing.  23 Q Right.  And did you notice whether or not there was  24 a large valley or some other unusual feature in that  25 area?  26 A It is all a lake there.  I presume it was flat.  27 Q Yes.  2 8 A Swan Lake.  29 Q Is Swan Lake part of the territory?  30 A That I don't know.  31 Q Now, coming back to the first territory, the one  32 that's described in your affidavit?  33 A Tsuwinhl Getsit.  34 MR. GRANT: He said Tsuwinhl Getsit.  35 MR. MACAULAY:  36 Q What name did you call that?  37 A Tsuwinhl Getsit.  3 8 THE INTERPRETER:  It should be G-E-T-S-I-T.  It is just past  39 Tsuwinhl Geets, but the way he says it is Tsuwinhl  40 Getsit.  41 MR. MACAULAY:  42 Q Well, the name you first used, is it these two  43 words?  The first time you pronounced the name, was  44 it those two words?  45 A Tsuwinhl Geets.  46 MR. GRANT: Is that yes?  47 THE INTERPRETER:  Yes. 19  F.   Wale   (for  Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr.   Macaulay  1 MR.   MACKENZIE:     Mrs.   Howard  gave a  different name.  2 MR. MACAULAY:  3 Q   Well, is there another name for that territory that  4 you know of ?  5 A   No.  6 THE INTERPRETER:  Are you talking about when he said Getsit?  7 MR. MACAULAY:  Yes.  8 THE INTERPRETER:  That's the name of the creek in Tsuwinhl Geets  9 territory.  Tsuwinhl Getsit, it is one in the same.  10 MR. MACAULAY:  Did you know that —  11 MR. GRANT:  Just to be clear because of his pronunciation  12 question, the witness has given Tsuwinhl Geets which  13 is on page 2 of his affidavit.  There was a  14 pronunciation of Tsuwinhl Getsit which would be the  15 first name — that is the first word of that name  16 and Getsit is the second word under number 2 under  17 Rivers and Creeks on paragraph 7.  So just to be  18 clear, those are the two words that are being talked  19 about or two pronunciations of the same word.  20 MR. MACAULAY:  Did you know that in this lawsuit when this  21 lawsuit started it appeared that Geel was claiming a  22 large part of the area that you describe in your  23 affidavit?  Did you know that?  24 MR. GRANT:  Well —  25 MR. MACAULAY:  I am asking if he knows that.  26 MR. GRANT: Well, I am not sure if the foundation of that is  27 true unless it is based on his interrogatory answer.  28 Because if it is based on draft maps they were never  29 put in as part of the claim Exhibit 5.  30 MR. MACAULAY:  Exhibit 5.  Exhibit 5 whatever it is is an  31 exhibit at the trial.  And —  32 MR. GRANT:  I'm sorry, there is a draft map which was Exhibit 5  33 in the discovery of Mr. Sterritt.  I can't recall  34 what trial exhibit it is.  35 MR. MACAULAY:  102.  36 MR. GRANT:  If that's what you are referring to.  37 MR. MACAULAY:  3 8 Q   No, I'm not referring to that.  I am referring to  39 Exhibit 5.  Well, we will start again.  Mr. Wale,  40 the plaintiffs in this action put in a big map as  41 one of their first exhibits.  42 A   What do you mean by the plaintiffs?  43 Q   The plaintiffs are all the Gitksan hereditary  44 chiefs.  They are represented by one group of  45 lawyers at court.  You know that, don't you?  46 A   Yes.  47 Q   And your mother is one of the named plaintiffs.  She F. Wale (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Macaulay  1 is a head chief of the house so she is one of the  2 plaintiffs.  Early in this lawsuit at trial a big  3 map was marked as an exhibit and it showed various  4 territories of various houses.  And in the territory  5 we are talking about now, the one you are describing  6 here in your affidavit the southwestern part of it  7 had the name Geel, not the name Gwoimt.  Did you  8 know that?  9 A   No, I didn't.  Did you say it was overlapping,  10 that's what you mean?  I didn't know.  11 Q   Did Geel ever trap in the southern part of the area  12 that you describe in your affidavit?  13 A   That I don't know.  14 Q   The southern boundary of your territory is known in  15 English as Sterritt Creek; is that right?  16 A   Xsa Iss?  17 Q   But are you aware on the government maps it is  18 called Sterritt Creek?  19 A   I noticed a sign there saying Sterritt Creek.  20 Q   Right.  And that's your southern boundary on that  21 creek that has a sign saying Sterritt Creek?  22 A   Yes.  23 Q   And in fact in your affidavit — look at your  24 affidavit about the eighth line of paragraph five  25 and the ninth line there is a reference to Xsa Iss  26 and then in brackets Sterritt Creek?  27 A   Yes.  2 8 Q   And that's the southern boundary?  29 A   Yes.  3 0 Q   And that's a creek that flows from Thomlinson to the  31 Skeena River?  32 A   That's the range it is coming from, the mountain  33 range.  34 Q   Now, in that area near the confluence of the Skeena  35 and Sterritt Creek, did you ever trap in that part  36 of the territory — of your territory?  That would  37 be north of Sterritt Creek and east of the Skeena?  38 A   No, not in that area.  My brother and late Austin  39 trapped in that area.  That was a while back.  I  40 never trapped myself there.  41 MR. MACAULAY:  Did Geel hunt goats in around Mount Thomlinson?  42 MR. GRANT:  What time frame are we talking about?  43 MR. MACAULAY:  44 Q   Any time that he knows about?  45 A   I don't know.  46 Q   Are there goats on Mount Thomlinson?  47 A   Yes. F. Wale (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Macaulay  1 Q   Do you hunt them yourself?  2 A   No, I don't.  A lot of hunters go in there and hunt  3 them, white people, you know.  4 Q   I am not asking about --  5 A   But you are asking for hunters.  There is white  6 sport people go up there and hunt.  7 Q    Is Mount Thomlinson in your Gwoimt territory?  8 A   Part of it, yes.  9 Q    Part of it?  10 A   Yes.  11 Q   Do you know Joshua McLean?  12 A   Yeah.  13 MR. GRANT:  Can we go off the record.  14  15 (DISCUSSION OFF THE RECORD)  16  17 (BRIEF ADJOURNMENT)  18  19 MR. MACAULAY:  There was a document, it's a form of will that I  20 showed the witness earlier in this  21 cross-examination.  It purports to be the last will  22 of William Wale.  I am going to ask that this be  23 marked Exhibit 1 for identification.  And for the  24 record, I should mention that the will itself refers  25 to six sketches which are attached.  The witness was  26 shown sketch number 5 during the cross-examination.  27 I think it appropriate that the whole document, that  28 is the will plus the six sketches be marked for  29 identification.  30  31 (EXHIBIT 1 FOR IDENTIFICATION:  Last Will and  32 Testament of William Wale and six sketches)  33  34 MR. MACAULAY:  And I will provide copies for counsel shortly.  35 MR. GRANT:  As it is an exhibit for identification, of course I  36 have no objection.  37 MR. MACAULAY:  I asked the witness about Exhibit 5.  I think I  3 8 should show him a copy, but it is a photocopy of  39 Exhibit 5.  Do you remember —  40 MR. GRANT:  That's Exhibit 5 for identification at trial.  It is  41 an exhibit for identification as well.  42 MR. MACAULAY:  Mr. Wale, I was asking you if you knew anything  43 about Geel and a claim Geel might have to an area  44 near Sterritt Creek.  And I told you about a map  45 that the plaintiffs' lawyers had put in as an  46 exhibit, Exhibit 5 for identification.  I am going  47 to show you a copy of this map now, and F.   Wale   (for  Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by  Mr.   Macaulay  1 particularily  the  area  that we have been  talking  2 about.  3 MR. GRANT:  Just before you proceed to do that, I want to set  4 out for the record that Exhibit 5 is Exhibit 5 for  5 identification.  The only identification for which  6 Exhibit 5 was ever used by the plaintiffs was for  7 the identification of the territory of Gyolugyet  8 which territory is not proximate or anywhere near  9 this territory.  I shouldn't say that, it doesn't  10 border on this territory or these two territories  11 you are talking about.  And no other plaintiff has  12 utilized this map to identify the boundaries of  13 their territory including Gwoimt or Geel.  Having  14 said that, you are free to put it to the witness.  15 MR. MACAULAY:  16 Q   Here is the map.  And you'll see the area along the  17 Skeena River that we have been discussing.  And  18 there are two houses identified in this area, one is  19 Gwoimt and the other is Geel.  And I was asking you  20 about this area that is — bears the name Geel.  21 You've told me that you weren't aware of any claim  22 by Geel in that area that's north of Sterritt Creek?  23 A   I'm just aware of my own boundaries.  24 MR. MACAULAY:  But you are not aware that Walter Harris or  2 5 anyone else in the house of Geel made any claim to  26 part of what is part of the territory you described  27 as Gwoimt?  2 8 MR. GRANT:  Well, that's where I object because I don't think  29 there is any evidence that Walter Harris or Geel  3 0 made any claim.  What there is is there is a map  31 which has been utilized to show the territory of  32 Gyolugyet which has other territories on it, but no  33 witness has claimed that for Geel in evidence and  34 that's why I object to the question.  35 MR. MACAULAY:  Well, I wasn't present at the examination for Mr.  36 Harris and so I can't make a comment on that.  37 MR. GRANT:  Mr. Harris has not been examined.  3 8 MR. MACAULAY:  Hasn't he?  39 MR. MACKENZIE:  No.  40 MR. GRANT:  So it is very good that you weren't present because  41 all of the counsel would have been interested in  42 knowing what happened.  43 MR. MACAULAY:  However, we have an affidavit of Walter Harris,  44 Geel, in which he —  45 MR. GRANT:  This is the interrogatory?  46 MR. MACAULAY:  Yes.  He refers to Sterritt Creek amongst other  47 descriptions of territories. 23  F. Wale (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Macaulay  1 MR. GRANT:  Can I take a look at that? Well, the reference  2 there, the last reference is to Sterritt Creek and  3 numerous fishing holes along the Skeena.  4 MR. MACAULAY:  Yes.  5 MR. GRANT:  Whether that is a claim to the land or a fishing  6 site there —  7 MR. MACAULAY:  Well, we will find out perhaps later.  Anyhow,  8 all I am asking this witness, having shown him this  9 map, whether he confirms that he doesn't know of any  10 other claims by Walter Harris or anyone in Geel's  11 house to an area north and east of the intersection  12 of Sterritt Creek and the Skeena River.  13 MR. GRANT:  And up to Shewililba Creek from this mountain?  14 MR. MACAULAY:  15 Q    Yes.  16 A   All I'm aware of is my own Gwoimt territory.  I am  17 not aware of Geel's territory.  18 Q   And Walter Harris has never spoken to you about any  19 claim he might have to any part of the territory  2 0 that you describe in your affidavit?  21 A   Well, there was talks, but there was nothing serious  22 like ~  23 Q   Was there talk between yourself and Walter Harris?  24 A   We agreed that we could perhaps travel on the same  2 5 area.  There is a road pushed right through there  26 and it wouldn't matter.  27 Q   What you are saying is you have no objection to —  2 8 A   No, I got no objections to if he was, you know —  29 Q   To him travelling through the area?  3 0 A   There are so many people travelling through there  31 now.  You can't keep track of all the people that  32 are travelling through there.  They have a road  33 pushed in by Westar and this summer I had a lot of  34 people turned back on account of they were going  3 5 through our territory.  I was really disgusted how  36 they travel through that territory without  37 approaching myself or mom.  I didn't quite get some  38 of your question.  39 Q   Well —  4 0 A   I spent quite an amount of my time up in that area.  41 I have got a cabin on the north end of that  42 trapline.  And people do come and break-in those  43 cabins that are up there that belongs to the people  44 that are trapping up there.  I'm just so fortunate  45 that mine hasn't been broken in.  I've got a lot of  46 stuff in there.  47 This summer was the worst summer that we had F. Wale (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Macaulay  1 for people coming in there.  Not the native people.  2 They respect their territory.  But the white people  3 that are intruding there.  They are logging without  4 mom's permission.  They've destroyed the territory  5 without consent from my mom.  And the game that was  6 there — I remember the first year they logged there  7 they shot five moose and one salt lick there after  8 they clear-cut.  And the salt lick is out where the  9 moose lick and where they get their salt.  That's  10 all dried up now.  There is nothing there for moose  11 to hang around because there is no shelter.  12 It is not only that.  I can name quite a few  13 games that are disappearing up in that area.  Now  14 it's the fishing that's going to be ruined on  15 account of the logging along the river.  And I'm  16 really against that because I volunteer myself as an  17 enhancement for working with young kids picking  18 minnows and stuff up, working with them in one of  19 the schools in Hazelton.  That's my concern about  20 mom's trapline.  21 All these years there has been — you know, we  22 go up there and it is pretty quiet.  All the trails  23 are destroyed.  Landmarks are destroyed.  Cabins  24 destroyed without forestry approaching us sitting  25 across the table and saying:  I see your name here  26 that you owned this territory.  That hasn't been  27 happening.  And I think it is only right that we sit  28 across the table and talk.  I can't hurt anybody.  29 We can just sit and talk and agree with something on  30 paper which our people years ago, they didn't know  31 how to read and write.  They used to go by X what  32 mom said just to sign a cheque.  Is this what they  33 are going for is X when they are dealing with native  34 people?  Is it?  3 5 Q   Well, I am not asking you —  36 A   No, I'm asking you.  Do they go for a signature as X  37 and they accept that in any position?  38 Q   I —  39 A   Whether federal or provincial?  40 Q   I can't answer your question because I don't know.  41 A   Well, this is what's been happening.  Look at the  42 white people out there now today.  They go down the  43 canyon.  They dip fish.  They go and sell it into  44 Smithers area here.  We're against that.  I don't  4 5 sell fish.  I spend a lot of time there and I know  46 what people that comes up there, and that kind of  47 hurts me inside.  Sure it's okay for mom not to say 25  F. Wale (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Macaulay  1 anything, a quiet woman.  She has got a lot of  2 knowledge, more knowledge than me put together maybe  3 with her own style of life the way she was brought  4 up.  I think this is one of the things that we have  5 to recognize, the knowledgeable people that spent  6 all these years trapping, fishing, hunting.  Now I  7 have to sign a little piece of paper to get a  8 permit, why is that?  9 Q   Well, that's what this lawsuit is about, Mr. —  10 A   No, but why do I have to sign a paper? My  11 grandfather never signed a paper to go hunting,  12 fishing, trapping.  They knew their territory.  I'm  13 sorry, you know, I have to bring that up but that's  14 just what's happening.  I like to see people sit  15 across the table and say:  Hey, look, this is your  16 territory.  Let's talk about it and discuss it and  17 see what kind of a direction we are going here.  18 Q   Well, Mr. Wale —  19 A   We are not going any direction at all.  We seem to  2 0 be going in one channel.  21 Q   Well, I'm trying to find out about your territory by  22 asking you questions about this.  23 A   But this is the thing we are facing, that's why I  24 brought it up.  25 Q   Where is your cabin on the territory, is it on  26 the —  27 A   Xsi Liginsxw.  Xsi Liginsxw close to Xsi Iss.  2 8 MR. MACAULAY:  Is that on the affidavit?  2 9 MR. GRANT:  Just a moment.  3 0 THE WITNESS:  About half a mile up —  31 MR. GRANT:  Just a moment.  It's not on the affidavit.  It's  32 just not named, that's all.  33 MR. MACAULAY:  Well, is there an English name on the map that  34 one can refer to to locate your cabin?  35 MR. GRANT:  Do you have a spelling for that name that the  36 witness gave?  37 THE INTERPRETER:  Xsi Liginsxw, Babine River.  X-S-I, new word,  38 L-I-G-I-N-S-X-W.  39 MR. MACAULAY:  40 Q   Well, the English word for that is Babine River,  41 isn't it?  42 A    Yes.  43 Q   So your cabin is on the Babine River?  44 A   Yes.  4 5 Q   Is the cabin on the Kisgagaas Indian reserve land or  46 off that?  47 A   Laa gaa sim deex it is called.  It is part of F. Wale (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Macaulay  1 Kisgagaas.  It is on the west side of Kisgagaas.  2 Q   So the cabin is inside is the boundary of the  3 reserve?  4 A   Yes.  5 Q   Now, getting back to Walter Harris, was it you or  6 your mother who had a discussion about his right to  7 cross your land?  8 A   I don't think anybody is crossing it.  It is just —  9 I don't think there was any crossing.  It is just —  10 you know, since you brought it up I wasn't aware  11 myself.  12 Q   Did you yourself have any discussions with Walter  13 Harris concerning the Gwoimt territory?  14 A   We had talked about that it was close and we both  15 use the land.  It doesn't matter whose land because  16 he is my brother-in-law.  17 Q   You are married to his sister?  18 A   No, he is married to my sister.  19 Q   He is married to your sister?  20 A   It was kind of a verbal agreement.  21 Q   So the discussion was about his having permission to  22 use this land?  23 A   Well, like I say there are a few people hunt there  24 and he does hunt there and the boys hunt there.  I  25 don't keep track of — there is so much traffic  26 there now.  I can't keep track of anybody.  At one  27 time you can.  2 8 Q   I am asking only about Walter Harris and his family.  29 A   He still hunts in there.  3 0 Q   Does he hunt up around Mount Thomlinson?  31 .  A   I don't know.  32 Q   You don't know?  33 A   I haven't seen him hunting there before.  3 4 Q   Does anybody trap in there now?  3 5 A   There is quite a few people trap up in there.  36 Q   In the territory that you've described in paragraph  37 5?  3 8 A   Not in my territory, their own territory.  39 Q   But in your territory, does any member of your house  40 or anybody with your permission?  41 A   I do trap in there myself.  42 Q   Anyone else?  43 A    No.  44 Q   And within the territory, what area did you trap  45 when you were out this last season?  46 A   Well, just when we were out this summer — well,  47 late this fall I was trapping on the north side. F. Wale (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Macaulay  1 Q   The north side of the Skeena?  2 A   No, on the north side where I was at on the  3 trapline.  4 Q   Well, the Skeena River intersects your territory; is  5 that right?  6 A   Yes.  7 Q   And part of your territory lies northwest of the  8 Skeena, but the main part of your territory is  9 southeast, south?  10 A   Yes, I trap on that area plus the reserve where  11 there is swamps trapping beaver.  12 Q   Does anybody trap on that small portion of your  13 territory that lies on the other side of the Skeena,  14 that is the west side of the Skeena?  15 A   It is all burned off.  16 Q   And how long has it been burned off?  17 A   Well, I couldn't tell you the exact years, but  18 roughly about ten years, eight years since it — all  19 that side, that mountain on that side is all burned.  20 I don't know, it is quite an area.  It would show on  21 the forestry map.  22 Q   And there is a logging road in there?  23 A   Yes, both sides.  24 Q   Well, the trapping that you do, is it — is it near  25 the reserve boundary?  26 A   Yes, along in that area, yeah.  27 Q   So it's at the north end of your territory?  28 A   Yes, that's what I said before it is on the north  29 end of the trapline.  On the bottom side it is all  30 logged off so you can't trap there.  There is so  31 much disturbance with the machinery and logging  32 trucks and loggers that are travelling up and down  33 there you can't do anything.  You are run over if  3 4 you are on the road.  So my best thing is not to  35 park.  I've been driven off the road with logging  36 trucks.  They got no respect for any cars or trucks.  37 Q   Is there still some trapping territory, that is  3 8 territory that is suitable for trapping along  39 Shewililba Creek?  40 A   They are logging in that area.  You know, like I say  41 you have to see it first before you could believe  42 what I'm saying.  It is a disgrace how they left  43 things.  You can't trap with windfalls and logs that  44 they leave.  It is good for pulp, and yet they took  45 the high grade logs out of there and you can't trap  46 there.  It is discouraging me to even go up to my  47 own territory on the count of traffic and logging 28  F. Wale (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Macaulay  1 trucks.  The guys when they finish work you have to  2 get out of the road.  Loggers, they just don't have  3 respect for anybody, you know, when they go home.  4 Q   So the Shewililba Creek area is now a logging area?  5 A   Yes.  What really hurts me inside is they have got  6 logs that they cut on the right of way and they pile  7 it up, and they don't take those logs in on account  8 of it was on the right of way.  I don't know what  9 policy the forestry has.  I know what you are  10 talking about at Shewililba.  They burned three  11 piles of sound logs right in that area.  12 MR. MACAULAY:  Is there an area in your Gwoimt territory called  13 Luu ska Tsee'it?  I will spell it.  L-U-U, S-K-A,  14 T-S-E-E, apostrophe, I-T.  15 THE INTERPRETER:  Where is .that?  16 MR. MACAULAY:  It was a word that was used by Joshua McLean.  It  17 doesn't appear in the affidavit.  I am asking you if  18 you are familiar with it.  19 THE INTERPRETER:  Can you give me the spelling again?  20 MR. MACAULAY:  L-U-U, S-K-A, and then another word T-S-E-E,  21 apostrophe, I-T.  And if you could — Mrs. Howard,  22 if you could pronounce that properly for the  23 witness.  24 MR. GRANT:  Can we go off the record a moment?  2 5 MR. MACAULAY:  Sure.  26  27 (DISCUSSION OFF THE RECORD)  28  29 MR. MACAULAY:  30 Q   Is there a feature or either a hill or a creek or a  31 marsh or a meadow, some geographic feature in your  32 territory that has that name?  33 A   Yes.  34 Q   Which —  35 A   I couldn't remember just whereabouts it is.  36 MR. MACAULAY:  Okay.  37 MR. GRANT:  Just to be fair, my understanding from the notes and  3 8 I presume these notes that you are taking it from  39 are that these are Mr. Sterritt's notes.  But there  40 are two of— there are two Luu ska Tsee'its, that's  41 what the top part of that note says so I just think  42 to be fair to the witness —  43 MR. MACAULAY:  That is not my understanding that I got from Mr.  44 McLean.  My understanding from Mr. McLean is there  45 are two creeks which have that as part of the creek  46 names.  47 MR. GRANT:  Yes. F. Wale (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Macaulay  1 MR. MACAULAY:  And then there is a feature in behind.  2 MR. GRANT: Which is the Luu ska Tsee'it?  3 MR. MACAULAY:  Yes.  4 MR. GRANT: So you are asking about the feature in behind?  5 MR. MACAULAY:  6 Q Yes,   not  about   the  creeks.     Do you know Abel   Oakes?  7 A Yes.  8 Q Is he still alive?  9 A No, he passed away quite a number of years ago.  10 Q Now, he put up a pole at Gitanmaax 30, 40 years ago?  11 A That I am not aware of.  I was too young at that  12 time.  13 Q Was  he  a member  of your  house,   Gwoimt?  14 A He  is  a member on mom's  side,   yes.  15 Q Yes.     Well,   is  there a pole new at Gitanmaax  that  is  16 a Gwoimt  pole?  17 A Yes  and no.     I  can't  say  for  sure,   but  they  have  all  18 fallen  down and  they  are  all  rotted and you  can't  19 replace  them.  20 Q Well,   of   these  poles   that have fallen down,   can you  21 identify one as being  a Gwoimt pole?  22 A The  only pole  that  I  am aware of  up where  I've  got  23 my  cabin at Laa  gaa  sim deex.     There was  a pole  24 there  and  it belonged  to Gwoimt.  25 Q Yes.  26 A And I know the exact location, but that is a number  27 of years ago.  It is all mossed in.  I wanted to dig  28 it out, but I haven't touched it yet.  29 Q And how long was that pole raised?  3 0 A Oh, that was way before my time.  31 Q And did your mother —  32 A Before mom's time too.  33 Q I see.  In your lifetime, has there been a Gwoimt  34 pole raised either at Kisgagaas or at Gitanmaax?  3 5 A That I can't say.  36 Q Was there a smokehouse built in 19 84 by Gwoimt?  37 A In what location?  38 Q I don't know.  Anywhere in the Gitksan area?  39 A There is a smokehouse that I built up where my cabin  40 is.  41 Q Did you build that in 19 84?  42 A I couldn't remember the year, but it's not really  43 that old.  It is right next to my cabin I built a  44 good size smokehouse beyond Gwoimt's territory on  45 the reserve where I am.  46 Q And before you built that smokehouse, was there any  47 Gwoimt smokehouse anywhere in Gitksan territory? -}  c  F. Wale (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Macaulay  1 A   I guess so, but I'm not aware of it where I built my  2 wilp sahon.  I'm not aware of it, but they are  3 probably all decayed down you might say.  4 Q   Well, when you were young and when your father was  5 alive, did he have a smokehouse?  6 A   Yes.  7 MR. GRANT:  The question before was whether there were smoke  8 houses and the Gwoimt territory; is that right?  9 MR. MACAULAY:  10 Q   No, a Gwoimt smokehouse anywhere in Gitksan  11 territory?  12 A   Oh, going back, my grandmother had a smokehouse in  13 Hazelton where she had her property.  That was a  14 long time ago.  She was Gwoimt then if that's what  15 you're referring to.  16 Q   And was that still in use when you were young?  17 A   Yes.  18 Q   When did it — when did your house or family stop  19 using it?  20 A   When they moved out of the house it wasn't in use  21 then.  They built a new home in Hazelton.  22 Q   And how long ago did they build a new home in  23 Hazelton?  24 A   Well, a fire on the house in '56 on the new home  25 that was built before that.  26 Q   The new home was built sometime before '59 after?  27 A   Yes.  Our new home burned in '56, that's all I  2 8 remember.  29 Q   And during the interval between the abandonment of  30 your grandmother's smokehouse and your building a  31 smoke house in the last few years —  32 A   Yes.  33 Q   — has there been any Gwoimt smokehouse?  34 A   Well, you could call my smokehouse Gwoimt because it  3 5 is on her territory.  36 Q   Yes, but you built that in the last few years?  37 A   Yes.  And what I do is I give her all the smoked  38 fish that she provides during winter months.  She  39 herself, she can't do that on account of her age.  40 MR. MACAULAY:  But before you built that smokehouse there was no  41 Gwoimt smokehouse for many, many years; is that  42 right?  43 MR. GRANT:  I just want to be clear because when you say  44 "Gwoimt" smokehouse, are you referring to a  45 smokehouse used by the person named Gwoimt or a  46 smokehouse used by the member of the house or a  47 smokehouse on the Gwoimt territory.  I think there 31  F. Wale (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Macaulay  1 is a little bit of confusion by the witness as to  2 what you are referring to.  3 MR. MACAULAY:  4 Q   I am asking about a smokehouse used by any member of  5 the home or by any member of the wilp Gwoimt before  6 you built yours in the last few years?  7 A   Yes, there was one across from mom's mother's ranch  8 across from Hazelton.  She had a smokehouse there.  9 Q   That was your grandmother's smokehouse?  10 A   Smoke house.  And then mom and dad were there too  11 during the summer.  12 Q   Yes.  And that was no longer in use after the new  13 house was built?  14 A   Well, there were new regulation on the town you are  15 not supposed to have built smoke houses.  It has got  16 to be outside of town.  So we've got one outside of  17 town quite a ways.  18 Q   Well, the one outside of town is the one you built  19 in the last few years?  20 A   Oh, I can't build it in Hazelton right next to my  21 house.  22 Q   No.  23 A   Because the municipal would jump your back right  24 now.  They don't like that.  At one time when I was  25 younger there was — you name it, just about every  26 house on the reserve has a smokehouse where they  27 hang their fish during the winter months.  28 MR. MACAULAY:  Well, does Howard Wale have his own smokehouse?  2 9    MR. GRANT:  Today?  3 0    MR. MACAULAY:  31 Q   Today?  32 A    No.  33 Q   How about Wilfred Wale, does he have his own  34 smokehouse?  35 A   Wilfred doesn't have a family.  Howard he gets all  36 his fish from when he is commercial and sport  37 fishing when he gets back from that.  38 Q   And Sadie Harris, your sister, does she have a  3 9 smokehouse?  40 A   I don't know.  She lives out at Kispiox and you have  41 to —  42 Q   And Wally, your brother Wally, does he have a  43 smokehouse?  44 A   He is deceased a year and a half ago.  45 Q   How about Bernard?  46 A   Bernard is in Rupert right now and that's where he  47 is staying. F. Wale (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Macaulay  1 Q How long has he lived in Prince Rupert?  2 A About a couple of years ago, a year and a half.  3 Q Before he moved to Rupert did he have a smokehouse?  4 A Oh, he shared — like we share our smokehouse.  5 Q The one you built?  6 A Yeah.  7 Q Right.  Well, is it fair to say that you are the  8 only member of your house who was operating a  9 smokehouse now?  10 A Well, it is shared.  11 Q Yes.  12 A You could come in and hang your fish there.  13 Q The other members of the house can use it?  14 A Yes.  15 Q But there is no other smokehouse that's being used  16 by —  17 A Not in Hazelton, no.  18 Q At Hazelton.  19 A It would be out of Hazelton.  2 0 MR. MACAULAY:  Or anywhere else?  21 MR. GRANT: Well, I think there is some major — the witness was  22 answering some more, I think you should —  23 MR. MACAULAY:  He is doing very well, but I am trying to find  24 out if there is any other member of his wilp who is  2 5 operating a smokehouse?  26 MR. GRANT: Other than the one that he has?  27 MR. MACAULAY:  Yes.  2 8 MR. GRANT: You said he said that has been used.  Maybe that  29 should be translated.  3 0 MR. MACAULAY:  31 Q Sure.  3 2 A As far as he knows he is the only one that has a  33 smokehouse in the family.  He doesn't know about the  34 other members.  Sadie might be just sharing one with  35 Margaret Foster in Kispiox.  36 Q Are you the registered holder of a trapline?  Are  37 you the holder of a registered trapline?  38 A Yes.  3 9 Q And is that the trapline that used to be registered  40 in the name of Austin Mathews?  41 A Yes.  42 MR. MATHEWS:  I'm showing you a trapline map and it's part of a  43 government file.  I'm going to ask you if that —  44 first, have you got a map that is similar to that?  45 MR. GRANT: This is one of your listed files, I gather?  46 MR. MACAULAY:  Oh, yes.  Do you want the number?  That's an  47 original you see.  Our document number is 45 90. F. Wale (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Macaulay  1 MR. GRANT:  It is like a tracing paper.  I think it would be  2 agreed that the drawing is on tracing paper, if not  3 on a —  4 MR. MACAULAY:  It is the usual material that these trapline maps  5 are drawn on.  6 MR. GRANT:  Can I take a moment to look at this.  I understand  7 it is a print — it is different.  It is a form of  8 drafting paper.  I differ that it is the normal form  9 of trapline maps.  At least provincial maps are maps  10 the province delivers generally are not on this form  11 the ones that are utilized.  12 MR. MACAULAY:  Well, that may be.  13 MR. GRANT:  Go ahead.  14 MR. MACAULAY:  15 Q   Have you got a map that is similar to that one that  16 you are looking at?  17 A   Similar, yes.  18 Q   And are the boundaries of the trapline, the  19 registered trapline similar to the boundaries shown  20 there?  21 A   The territory that we call Lax yip could be a little  22 different in areas.  You go by mountain and creeks  23 for your guidelines.  24 Q   You mean your map has more detail about say  25 mountains?  26 A   Not really.  27 MR. GRANT:  He is referring to — the answer was referring to  2 8 his Lax yip.  29 MR.   MACAULAY:     What's  Lax yip?  30 THE  INTERPRETER:     That's  hereditary   territory.  31 MR. MACAULAY:  32 Q   I am not asking you about your hereditary territory.  33 I am asking you about your trapline.  Have you got a  34 map like this?  35 A   Yes.  36 Q   With your territory?  37 A   Yes.  3 8 Q   And does your map have your name or Austin Mathews  39 on it?  40 A   It is not marked like that.  41 Q   It isn't.  It doesn't have Austin?  42 A   The old maps are all marked with their names on it.  43 Q   Did you get a map from the game officials?  44 A   Yes.  45 Q   And was that after you registered your trapline?  46 A   Oh, that was way before I was on the trapline and I  47 picked it up just to compare it. F. Wale (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Macaulay  1 Q   You picked it up at the game office?  2 A   Yes.  3 Q   And your trapline is a company trapline as they call  4 it, isn't it?  5 A   Yes.  6 Q   It is Frederick Wale and Company?  7 A   Yes.  8 Q And who  is  in the  company?  9 A My brothers and sisters.  10 MR.   MACAULAY:     All   of   them?  11  12 (NO AUDIBLE RESPONSE)  13  14 MR. GRANT:  Nodding affirmatively.  15 THE WITNESS:  They wouldn't have to be all there, but that's how  16 we understand it.  17 MR. MACAULAY:  18 Q   So Sadie Harris is on your company trapline?  19 A   Yes, she belongs to our house.  20 Q   Well, before you held the trapline it was your  21 mother's trapline?  22 A    Yes.  23 Q   And before that it was —  24 A   Austin's.  25 MR. MACAULAY:  Austin's.  Do you know about any dispute with  26 your neighbour Joshua McLean or William McLean, his  27 father, about who owned the east side of Shegisic  2 8 Creek?  29 MR.   GRANT:     What  time  are you  talking of?  30 MR.   MACAULAY:      In William McLean's  lifetime.  31 MR.   GRANT:     And Austin Mathews?  32 MR.   MACAULAY:  33 Q   Yes.  You are not aware of that?  34 A   No, I'm not aware of it.  3 5 MR. MACAULAY:  For the record, I was showing the witness the map  36 forming part of DIA file E5 82 8 which is our document  37 number 4590.  3 8 MR. GRANT:  Before re-direct I would like to have a chance to  39 read  that  file.  40 MR.   MACAULAY:  41 Q   Now, I am going to spell out a name because I can't  42 pronounce it.  I will ask you if you recognize the  43 name as being a name of a-territory, a Gwoimt  44 territory.  A-N-L-A-G-A-S-I-M-D-E-E-K.  I will spell  45 it again.  A-N-L-A-G-A-S-I-M-D-E-E-K.  Perhaps Mrs.  46 Howard could pronounce that for you.  Do you  47 recognize that name? F.   Wale   (for  Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr.   Macaulay  1 A Yes.  2 Q And is that a territory?  3 A That's where mom is — where we are from originally  4 from Anlaagaasimdeex.  Mom is a chief there.  That  5 is the name.  6 Q Well, is it a place?  7 A Yes, it is a place.  It is part of Kisgagaas Village  8 on the west end of the village.  9 Q It is inside the Indian reserve now?  10 A Yes.  11 Q And was that the name of a piece of ground?  12 A Anlaagaasimdeex, yes.  13 Q I see.  Was there a longhouse on that piece of  14 ground?  15 A That's where that totem pole was down.  16 Q Right.  And was there a longhouse there? Were you  17 told' by your mother about a longhouse being there?  18 A No, she never mentioned it.  19 Q But as you understand it, in olden times —  20 A Yes, that was a long, long time ago.  21 Q Your wilps, wilp Gwoimt lived there?  22 A The previous Gwoimt you might say.  23 MR. MACAULAY:  At the feast is there any mention of the  24 territory up by Swan Lake?  25 MR. GRANT: At what feast are you talking about?  26 MR. MACAULAY:  Feasts put on the by the members of the house of  27 Gwoimt?  2 8   MR. GRANT: That this witness has attended you mean?  29    MR. MACAULAY:  3 0 Q Yes, obviously that you've attended?  31 A Not that I know of.  When I attended a feast that  32 would be quite a while back.  That would be when  33 Phillip Johnson — Phillip Johnson, that was way  34 before, and I would be just a baby maybe.  35 Q When was the last feast of your house that your  3 6 house put on?  37 A When my late brother died February 19, 1987.  3 8 Q Which brother was that?  39 A Late Wally Wale.  4 0 Q Wally.  And before that when was there a feast of  41 your house?  42 A That I can't tell you the date, you know.  I can't  43 tell you that.  44 MR. GRANT: Just a moment.  4 5    THE INTERPRETER:  That was the only — it was the last feast  46 that he remembered that the house of Gwoimt put on  47 is when Wally died. 5  6  F. Wale (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Mackenzie  1 MR. MACAULAY:  Yes.  And I asked him about the one before that  2 and his answer was he didn't remember; is that  3 right?  I just want to make sure I have that.  4 MR. GRANT:  I was just asking the interpreter to ask him if he  5 wanted a break because you are on a sensitive  6 personal area and if he feels like a break I would  7 like him to have a break.  8 MR. MACAULAY:  I don't object to a break.  9  10 (BRIEF ADJOURNMENT)  11  12 MR. MACAULAY:  13 Q   Mr. Wale, is there an adaawk of your house that  14 refers to or describes in any way the territory near  15 the Swan Lakes?  16 A   Yes, my mother knows of one.  17 Q   Have you heard that adaawk at the feast hall?  18 A   They have one and my sister Sadie has it.  We don't  19 like to tell it outside of the house, but it is told  20 within the house.  21 MR. MACAULAY:  Now, when did you last hear that adaawk?  22 MR. GRANT:  This is the adaawk relating to Swan Lake?  23 MR. MACAULAY:  24 Q    Yes.  25 A   One of the house members told it on a tape.  It is  26 in the possession of my sister Sadie, and we listen  27 to it.  2 8 MR. MACAULAY:  Those are my questions.  Thank you, Mr. Wale.  29  3 0 MR. MACKENZIE:  I missed some of the questions so if I ask a  31 question that I missed, you'll tell me.  32 MR. GRANT:  He was asking about an adaawk relating to Swan Lake.  33  34 CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR. MACKENZIE:  3 5 Q   I would like to ask you about that adaawk relating  36 to Swan Lake, Mr. Wale.  You have heard the adaawk  37 on tape?  38 A   Yes.  39 Q   And it is in which language?  40 A   Gitksan.  41 Q   And can you tell me when you last heard it?  42 A   Last spring.  43 Q   And does that adaawk refer to any territory other  44 than Swan Lake?  4 5 A   It talks about the territory in the Kisgagaas area  46 Tsuwinhl geets.  47 Q   Does the adaawk talk about the territory at Gitan 37  F. Wale (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Mackenzie  1 gwalxw and the territory at Kisgagaas?  2 A   Can you. say that name again, please?  3 MR. GRANT:  By Kisgagaas you are referring to the Tsuwinhl geets  4 territory?  5 MR. MACKENZIE:  6 Q   Yes, Tsuwinhl geets.  7 A   He talks about the territory of Tsuwinhl geets.  8 Q   Just those two territories.  9 A   I can't tell you for sure because I only listened to  10 it once.  I know it talked about Tsuwinhl geets.  11 Q   So are you telling me that the only time you heard  12 the adaawk was last spring?  13 A   Yes.  14 Q   You hadn't heard it before then?  15 A   Different areas, but this is the first time that I  16 heard the tape in our own language by one of our  17 relations Arthur Sampson.  18 Q   Is Arthur Sampson related to you?  19 A   He is related on mom's side.  20 Q   He has passed away now?  21 A   Yes.  22 Q   Is he a member of the house of Gwoimt?  23 A   I can't say for sure.  24 MR. MACKENZIE:  Can you say that Arthur Sampson spoke about the  25 Gitan gwalxw territory?  26 MR. GRANT:  On this tape?  27 MR. MACKENZIE:  28 Q   On this tape?  29 A   I can't remember.  The only part was at Kisgagaas  3 0 where I have got my cabin so I was more interested  31 in that area.  32 Q   So you can't recall whether it included the Gitan  33 gwalxw territory?  34 A   I can't say.  3 5 Q   But your mother has told you about the Gitan gwalxw  36 territory?  37 A   Yes.  3 8 Q   And can you tell me when was the last time she may  39 have told you about it?  40 A   Not the exact date, no.  41 Q   Can you tell me what she said about that territory?  42 A   She told me that one of her grandchildren took the  43 name.  Shawn Harris took the name in one of the  44 feasts.  He is the one that is hanging onto that  45 territory.  46 Q   Do you know if any member of your house is trapping  47 in that territory? F. Wale (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Mackenzie  1 A   Like I said before, I think Walter's boys do hunt  2 there.  I don't know if they are trapping or what  3 they are doing, but I know they travel up and down  4 there quite often because they are right up to  5 Kispiox.  6 Q   They go up the logging road past Mitten Lake?  7 A   Yes, they do.  8 Q   Yes.  And your territory is before you get to Swan  9 Lake, is it not?  10 A   I'm not really too familiar with that area.  11 Q   I see.  Can you tell me — you said that you were  12 hunting and fishing up there.  Can you tell me where  13 you were hunting and fishing?  14 A   At Sweetin.  Down below Sweetin.  15 MR. MACKENZIE   Well, that gives us an idea where you are  16 talking about.  So you have an idea that your  17 territory is up near the west of Sweetin?  18 MR. GRANT:  The witness has said he is not too sure of the  19 territory and below Gitan gwalxw.  He is giving  20 about the best description he can give.  21 MR. MACKENZIE:  22 Q   You said you were in Sweetin?  23 A   Fishing.  24 Q And you   think  that  is  just  below Gitan  gwalxw?  25 A Above.  26 Q What  do you mean by   "above"?  27 A Up  river.  2 8 Q   And when you say "up river", do you mean the Kispiox  29 River?  3 0 A   Yes, where the two rivers meet there Sweetin and  31 Kispiox.  32 Q   And can you say that Gitan gwalxw is up the river  33 from Sweetin?  34 A   I'm not too sure.  I am not really familiar with  3 5 that area.  36 Q   No, I understand that.  But I thought you said —  37 A   I fished there.  3 8 Q         Well,   do you know  the  name  of   the next river west  of  39 Sweetin?  40 A   No.  41 Q   No.  Have you been west of Sweetin on the Kispiox  42 logging road there?  43 A   No.  44 Q   Do you know that your — that Walter hunts west of  45 Sweetin?  46 MR.   GRANT:     Walter who?  47 MR.   MACKENZIE: 39  F. Wale (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Mackenzie  1 Q Walter Gale — I'm sorry, Walter Wale, your brother?  2 Do you know that your brother —  3 A I haven't got a brother name Walter Wale.  4 MR. MACKENZIE:  I'm sorry.  Do you know that your brother hunts  5 west of Sweetin?  6 MR. GRANT: Which brother?  7 MR. MACKENZIE:  8 Q The brother that you said was hunting there?  You  9 said your brother was hunting up in that area.  You  10 said that Sadie's family was hunting up there?  11 A No, I didn't say that.  12 MR. MACKENZIE:  Can you tell me what you said then please?  13 MR. GRANT: No, I object to that question.  The witness has been  14 cross-examined for two and a half hours.  15 MR. MACKENZIE:  16 Q Can you tell me what you said about the members of  17 your family hunting and fishing in that area?  18 A My own area is at Kisgagaas.  19 MR. MACKENZIE:  No, can you tell me what you said about the  2 0 members of your family hunting up at Kisgagaas area.  21 MR. GRANT: I object.  You can ask him what he knows about that,  22 but you can't expect this witness two and a half  23 hours into cross-examination to remember what he  24 said two half hours ago.  It is a totally unfair  25 question.  You have your notes on what he said.  26 MR. MACKENZIE:  27 Q Your sister Sadie's children hunt up there; is that  28 correct?  29 A Yes.  3 0 Q And they hunt moose up there?  31 A Yes.  32 Q Do you know whether that is west of Sweetin?  33 A That I can't say.  34 Q Do you know whether they hunt near Gitan gwalxw?  35 A Come again?  36 Q Do you know whether they hunt near Gitan gwalxw?  37 A Yes.  3 8 Q And how do you know that?  3 9 A By talking to them.  40 Q And did they tell you where they were hunting?  41 A Yes.  42 Q And where did they say they were hunting?  43 A Up in that area.  44 Q Did they give the name of the place they are  45 hunting?  46 A -You don't usually give a name when you are talking  47 to people where you were hunting.  Were up that way F. Wale (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Mackenzie  1 in that area, and they say yes.  2 Q And which area did they say?  3 A Up towards that area you are referring to.  4 Q Well, how did they refer to the area?  5 A What do you mean?  6 Q What name did they use for the area?  7 A They would say past Sweetin.  8 MR. MACKENZIE:  And you understood that to be west of Sweetin?  9 MR. GRANT: Well —  10 THE WITNESS:  I don't know for sure.  I have to look at the map  11 before.  There is a bridge across there.  I don't  12 know if it is west or east.  13 MR. MACKENZIE:  14 Q I see.  Can you read maps?  15 A Not very good.  16 Q You said you would have to look at a map.  17 A Well, I can read but not very good.  18 Q I see.  If you looked at a map could you tell where  19 they are hunting?  20 A They don't tell me the location, the exact location  21 if that's what you are after.  22 Q Okay.  Has any member of your family told you where  23 Gitan gwalxw is?  24 A Yes.  25 Q And where  is  Gitan  gwalxw?  26 A It  is  up towards  Swan Lake  area.  27 Q Is   it  before you  get   to  Swan Lake?  2 8 A That  I  don't  know.  2 9 Q Oh,   I  see.     Has  any member  of your  family  told you  3 0 of   the river valley at Gitan gwalxw?  31 A No.  32 Q Do you know that it is the Nangeese River?  33 A I think that's what they call Swan Lake, Nangeese.  34 Don't take me right on —  3 5 Q Have you heard of the river, the Nangeese River?  36 A It was mentioned.  37 Q And when would it have been mentioned?  3 8 A Oh, I couldn't tell you that.  3 9 Q Who would have mentioned it?  4 0 A My mom.  41 Q And  is  that where  she was  trapping?  42 A Yes.  43 Q Yes.  Is that where Phillip Johnson was trapping?  44 A Yes.  4 5 Q Yes.     And do you  know  that's where Abel   Oakes was  46 trapping?  47 A I don' t know. n  F.   Wale   (for  Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by  Mr.   Mackenzie  1 Q Do you  know  that's where Austin Mathews was  2 trapping?  3 A   No.  4 Q   Now, your mother was trapping on the Nangeese River.  5 Is that the territory claimed by Gwoimt?  6 A   Yes.  7 Q   Yes.  And would your mother tell you how far up the  8 Nangeese River?  9 A        We  don't  go by miles.  10 Q Would  she  say  it was  up  to  the headwaters of   the  11 Nangeese River?  12 A   That I don't know.  She only told me there is a  13 cabin there where she used to stay.  14 Q   Oh, yes.  15 A   And she figures it is still up.  16 Q   Oh, yes.  17 A   Unless there are loggers that pushed it over.  I  18 wanted to go check it this summer, but I never had a  19 chance to go up in that area because I'm concerned  20 about it myself.  21 Q   Oh, yes.  You haven't been up there yourself I take  22 it, have you?  23 A   No.  24 Q   Do you know where that Nangeese River is?  25 A    No.  26 Q   Did your mother have a registered trapline up there?  27 A   That I don't know.  28 Q   Do you know if anyone is trapping up there now on  29 the Nangeese River?  3 0 A   There was some white people trapping up there and  31 they took quite a bit of fur out of there without  32 our permission.  He came and approached me.  I said:  33 Do you know whose trapline that is?  He said:  Yeah.  34 He said:  Can we have your permission?  That was  3 5 after they trapped there, and I said:  No.  You are  36 trespassing.  37 Q   Yes.  3 8 A   And they told me they got a lot of beavers out of  39 there and that was after they did that and then come  40 and ask me.  I don't know what kind of a —  41 Q   Do you know who that was?  42 A   David Larson.  43 Q   Does he live in Hazelton?  44 A   He lives close up in that valley, up in that area.  45 Q   Up at Kispiox?  46 A   Yes.  There is so much of it going on you can't keep  47 track of the white people that are trespassing on F. Wale (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Mackenzie  1 different territory.  I think it is hurting a lot of  2 our elders, you know.  Our traditional way of life  3 is to respect and to ask before you even go on the  4 territory.  And those territories have been going  5 for I don't know how many generations, five that I  6 know of just about is what mom said.  And I think it  7 is just kind of a ridiculous way of approaching our  8 people.  To me we are not existing as far as the  9 loggers are concerned, you know.  How would they  10 like it if I go and treat somebody's private  11 property.  It's the same thing.  You are  12 trespassing.  This is what they are doing.  This is  13 before the Europeans come to this area that our  14 ancestors trapped, logged, fished and they never  15 trespassed any territories at all.  They have  16 respect.  17 Q   Your ancestors Gwoimt?  18 A   Now today, you know, they are coming in and just  19 slaughtering the area.  I don't think that's fair,  20 you know, without approaching chiefs.  You deal with  21 that in a feast house.  22 Q   Yes.  23 A   And these people, they just laugh at you if you  24 mention feast house.  How much money they spent to  2 5 get that name and that territory which has been  26 traditionally passed on and on.  What do I tell my  27 kids and my grandkids?  I have got grandkids.  They  2 8 would be saying:  You're a liar.  Look it is cleared  29 off.  Where is the trail? Where is the cabin that  3 0 you are telling us that you used to go by the trail?  31 Where is the trails? Where is the cabins?  How do I  32 answer them?  You know, you probably have a family  33 yourself.  You set goals for them to be educated.  34 We educate our kids out in the wilderness where we  35 are raised as young people, not as warriors.  36 Q   So did your mother tell you that the people in  37 Gwoimt had been using the Nangeese Valley for over  3 8 five generations?  39 A   Well, it is close to that.  She didn't say that, but  4 0 by just looking at the people that are, you know, on  41 their stones and stuff that she had mentioned names.  42 I was going to take pictures of the years that are  43 marked on the tombstones.  44 Q   Oh, yes.  Well, you have spoken with great respect  45 for your mother's knowledge and she was very  46 knowledgeable about all the Gwoimt territories.  47 A   Thank you. 43  F.   Wale   (for  Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr.   Mackenzie  1 Q And  that's what you've  told us.  2 A Thank you.  3 Q   And she has the knowledge about the territory and  4 the Nangeese Valley.  5 A   Yes.  6 MR. MACKENZIE:  She has the territory about the Tsuwinhl geets  7 territory?  8 MR. GRANT:  She has the territory —  9 MR. MACKENZIE:  10 Q   She has the knowledge about the Tsuwinhl geets  11 territory.  12 (NO AUDIBLE RESPONSE)  13 Q   Nodding yes.  And it would be from your mother that  14 you learned much of the knowledge you had about  15 Gwoimt's territory?  16 A   Yes, she took the time to talk to all of us.  17 Q   Your mother is still alive?  18 A   Yes.  I was sorry I was going to bring her today and  19 she could have explained more briefly what's there.  20 MR. MACKENZIE:  Can you tell me whether you and your mother are  21 claiming the Nangeese territory now?  22 MR. GRANT:  In this lawsuit?  23 MR. MACKENZIE:  24 Q   In this lawsuit?  2 5 A   It would be up to Shawn.  Shawn was given the name.  26 He took the name of the previous holder of that area  27 so it would be up to him.  2 8 Q    I guess there is no doubt in your mind that that  29 Nangeese Valley is Gitksan territory?  30 A   Yes, that is right.  31 Q   Now, speaking about the Nangeese Valley, you also  32 told us about your mother mentioned that the dispute  33 that Phillip Johnson had a long time ago?  34 A   Yes.  3 5 Q   Yes.  And your mother had told you that it had gone  36 to some sort of a court?  37 A   Yes.  3 8 Q   And did she tell you that she had succeeded in that  39 court hearing?  40 A   Yes, and it took awhile and they won the case.  41 Q   Do you have any sense of when that might be?  42 A   No.  43 Q   I actually have a — I have a record of that court  44 hearing here.  45 A   Oh, have you?  46 MR. MACKENZIE:  Yes.  And I wanted to —  47 MR. GRANT:  How convenient. 44  F. Wale (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Mackenzie  1 MR. MACKENZIE:  Mr. Grant is very appreciative.  I have a copy  2 for Mr. Grant as well.  3 MR. GRANT:  I would be even more appreciative if you gave it to  4 me.  That was my first question as to what document  5 this is.  Is it provincial —  6 MR. MACKENZIE:  It is on the front.  7 MR. GRANT:  3439?  8 MR. MACKENZIE:  Yes.  9 MR. GRANT:  For the record, although this is listed, this is not  10 a document which has been reviewed by this witness.  11 It's about 18 pages long and it appears to be an  12 excerpt from one of your larger document files, I  13 presume traplines.  So this witness has had no  14 opportunity to review this or neither has counsel.  15 It has not been reviewed I should say.  16 MR. MACKENZIE:  No, this is just an extract.  This is what the  17 document number is and it deals with this problem  18 with the dispute.  I think that's all we have is the  19 extract.  20 MR. GRANT:  Just so I'm clear, this document that you are giving  21 me is an extract from a larger document number, but  22 what you are saying is that this is all of the  23 documents relating to this particular incident?  24 MR. MACKENZIE:  Yes.  25 MR. GRANT:  That are in that number?  26 MR, MACKENZIE:  27 Q   Yes.  You've already mentioned the names of several  28 of the people in your house.  Your mother told you  29 that the dispute was with Amos Williams?  Did she  3 0 say that, his name?  31 A   I couldn't remember the exact name, but people from  32 Kitwancool.  33 Q   Well, I would like to mark this document as an  34 exhibit then and it is an archival document as  3 5 indicated there for Public Archives of Canada.  3 6          A   What year was that?  37 Q   It was 193 2 was the actual hearing.  3 8 A   That was the day I was born, the year 1932.  39 MR. MACKENZIE:  It is a little before your time.  And the  40 dispute had been going on for sometime, apparently,  41 for several generations.  42 MR. GRANT: Well, wait a minute.  If you wish to give evidence,  43 I would be only too happy to cross-examine, but I  44 don't think you should give evidence.  4 5 MR. MACKENZIE:  Just responding to Mr. Wale's question.  At any  46 rate, Mr. Wale, I have given your counsel a copy so  47 you will be able to look at it when you get a F. Wale (for Plaintiffs)  Re-exam by Mr. Grant  1 chance.  And can we mark that as Exhibit 2, please.  2 MR. GRANT:  For identification.  3 MR. MACKENZIE:  Well, of course this week we are not arguing  4 about things, but I will just set out my  5 understanding that archival documents should be  6 marked as exhibits and not for identification.  If  7 you have an objection to it then I don't think we  8 have any alternative.  9 MR. GRANT: Well, I want to review the document.  It is a faxed  10 document.  It is an excerpt from your larger  11 document which presumably we have or I can get  12 access from you.  I want to be satisfied myself as  13 to what this document is.  14 MR. MACKENZIE:  That's fine.  15 MR. GRANT:  I don't have time now.  16  17 (EXHIBIT 2 FOR IDENTIFICATION: Public Archives of  18 Canada Document dated 1932)  19  20 MR. GRANT:  And also of course this document has not been  21 identified by the witness.  22 MR. MACKENZIE:  Yes.  I have no further questions.  23 MR. GRANT:  I would like to take five minutes so I can quickly  24 scan some of my material.  25  26 (BRIEF ADJOURNMENT)  27  2 8 RE-EXAMINATION BY MR. GRANT:  29 Q   Mr. Wale, you were asked by Mr. Macaulay this  3 0 morning about the work you had done and you've  31 described your work as a home school co-ordinator  32 for many years, your present work as the cultural  33 co-ordinator with the Wilp Sisatxw Society, and also  34 your work prior to that time in I believe logging —  35 I'm sorry, trucking.  You worked underground and you  36 worked in the hardware business and briefly  37 commercial fished on the coast at the time your  3 8 father was there.  During those other — the times  39              you did those other jobs, did you continue to — did  4 0 you trap on the Gwoimt territory at Tsuwinhl geets?  41 A   Yes.  42 Q   And you've described that you still trap there.  43 When you go out on the territory, do you take  44 anything aside from fur bearing animals that you use  45 or for your mother?  46 A   Medicine that I collect for mom.  47 Q   What kind of medicine? 46  F. Wale (for Plaintiffs)  Re-exam by Mr. Grant  1  A  2  3  4  Q  5  A  6  Q  7  A  8  9  10  11  12  Q  13  A  14  15  16  17  Q  18  A  19  20  Q  21  22  23  24  25  A  26  Q  27  28  A  29  Q  30  A  31  Q  32  33  34  35  A  36  37  Q  38  A  39  MR. GRANT:  40  41  42  43  MR. GRANT:  44  Q  45  46  47  Devil's Club, Huu'umst they call it.  I pick that  every spring and every fall when there is no leaves  on the Devil's Club.  We use that for medicine.  And how often does your mother use it?  She uses it quite regular.  What is it medicine for?  It is for — she figures it is helping her with her  sugar diabetes, controlling her sugar diabetes.  She  is not taking as many pills now as when they first  detected her, and she has always taken that to help  control her blood sugar.  Your mother is not very well?  No, she isn't.  This is one thing that I do is  preserve fish and smoke fish and bring some smoked  moose or beaver meat from my cabin to her.  That's  her diet and she likes those kind of wild games.  Do you use the trees from your territory?  Yes, we built about five or six cabins there from  the reserve timber.  Mr. Macaulay showed you the Gwoimt genealogy of  January 20, 19 88 and asked if Clarence was on there.  And, in fact, your brother Clarence should be on  there as one of your brothers, as one of your  mother's children in the house?  Yeah.  And you had a chance prior to being cross-examined  to review this five page genealogy, didn't you?  Yes.  You looked over it?  I looked over it, yes.  And other than the absence of Clarence, does that  genealogy show the members of your house and some of  the previous deceased members to your knowledge?  Does it accurately reflect them?  The only one missing was Clarence on there.  It is  just a mistake I guess.  Other than that it was correct?  Yes.  Can I have that marked as the next exhibit, please.  (EXHIBIT 3:  Genealogy of the House of Gwoimt)  You were asked by Mr. Macaulay about the  relationship between Gwoimt and Tsabux, Tsabux being  Wilmer Johnson.  Do you remember him asking you  about that? 47  F.   Wale   (for  Plaintiffs)  Re-exam by Mr.   Grant  1 A   Yes.  2 Q   Can you tell me in the feast hall where does Gwoimt,  3 your mother, and Tsabux, Wilmer Johnson, sit in  4 relation to each other?  5 A   Mom sits in the middle of the table.  6 Q   Yes.  7 A   Like so on the other side.  She sits in the middle  8 of the table and Wilmer Johnson would be on the  9 right-hand side of mom at the table.  10 Q   Right beside her?  11 A   Yes.  12 Q   And who would sit on her left-hand side?  13 A   My sister Sadie.  14 Q   And would you be sitting — where do you sit in  15 relation to your mother, on which side of her?  16 A   On the left-hand side maybe — not maybe, but the  17 fifth seat over to my mom's left.  18 MR. MACKENZIE:  How many seats over?  19 MR. GRANT:  Fifth seat over.  20 MR. MACKENZIE:  I'm sorry.  21 MR. GRANT:  22 Q   Who was your sister Sadie married to?  23 A   Walter Harris.  24 Q   And what chief's name does he hold?  25 A   I can't pronounce it.  26 Q   Okay.  Do you recall — you recall it but you just  27 can't pronounce it?  2 8 A   I can't pronounce it.  29 Q   Okay.  Do you know the name Geel?  30 A   Yes.  31 Q   Who holds that name?  32 A   Walter Harris, Sadie's husband.  33 Q   Now, Mr. Macaulay asked you about the area around  34 Gitan gwalxw and you indicated that the Kitwancool  35 claimed part of that area.  Mr. Mackenzie filed as  36 an Exhibit 2 here an 18 paged document which  37 includes a transcript of a dispute between Amos  3 8 Williams and Phillip Johnson.  And for the record,  39 although we did have a break, you have not looked at  40 this — you have never seen this before?  41 A   No.  42 Q   Now, what I want to ask you is when your mother  43 talked to you about the Gitan gwalxw area, did she  44 ever talk to you about a Xsiisxw or a settlement for  4 5 a killing that occurred up there?  46 A   She just told me that they went into court on  47 account of Gitan gwalxw and that they won a case on F. Wale (for Plaintiffs)  Re-exam by Mr. Grant  1 account of the court case, but she never really told  2 me.  3 Q   Okay.  Did your mother — you have heard — when I  4 refer to the concept of Xsiisxw or settlement, do  5 you know what I'm referring to?  6 A   Yes.  7 MR. GRANT:  Does your mother mention anything about a Xsiisxw or  8 settlement with respect to that territory.  9 MR. MACKENZIE:  I object to that question.  That is the second  10 time you have asked it.  11 MR. GRANT:  12 Q   Go ahead.  You can translate it.  13 A   I remember that she told me about a man being  14 murdered there and that was why they came in  15 possession of Gitan gwalxw.  16 Q   Do you remember if the person who was murdered was  17 from Gwoimt's house or another house from what your  18 mother told you?  19 A   All I heard or was told is that there was a man  20 murdered there, but they didn't say if it was a  21 member of the house of Gwoimt but it might have been  22 a relative of Gwoimt.  My mother would be the person  23 that would know all about it.  24 Q   Is your mother too unwell to give evidence here and  25 to be examined by the lawyers in the court case?  26 A   She is 81 years old and she is pretty weak.  She  27 can't travel, otherwise I would have brought her  2 8 this morning.  29 Q   She is too ill to travel?  30 A   She knows more than — she's a knowledgeable person  31 concerning what you people are asking me today.  32 Q   You described that your sister Sadie and your  33 brother-in-law Walter Harris' children hunt in the  34 territory up around Anlaagaasim deex.  35 A   Not at Anlaagaasim deex.  36 Q   Let me clarify it.  My note might be wrong.  Does  37 Walter Harris' children — I am talking now about  3 8 the Tsuwinhl geets territory.  39 A   Yes.  40 Q Does Walter's  children hunt  in the Tsuwinhl   geets  41 territory  of  Gwoimt?  42 A Very  seldom.     They go up  towards  Kispiox Valley  43 closer  I  should  say.  44 Q What house  are Walter's  children  in?  45 A    Gibuu.  46 Q   And which house?  47 A   Mom's house, Gwoimt. 49  F. Wale (for Plaintiffs]  Re-exam by Mr. Grant  1 Q   You described in answer to some questions from Mr.  2 Macaulay the destruction of your territory at  3 Tsuwinhl geets including the logging and other  4 destruction.  I think at one point you even said you  5 have to go up there to see it to believe what I am  6 describing to you or words to that effect.  Have you  7 taken photographs of some of the destruction of your  8 territory through logging over the past few years?  9 A   I have taken a few shots here and there.  10 Q   Okay.  You don1t have those photographs with you  11 today?  12 A   No, I forgot to bring the photographs.  13 Q   That's okay.  You were asked by Mr. Macaulay about  14 smokehouses and the smokehouses that you and  15 others — that your family has had.  Before you  16 built your smokehouse up near your cabin, where did  17 your mother get her fish for her winter fish supply,  18 and where did you get your fish?  19 A   Well, we get most of our fish from the coast.  My  20 brother Bernard, he has got a commercial boat.  I go  21 down and pick up quite a number of sockeye.  We have  22 to have a permit to do that, and he supplies mom and  23 some of the families with fish that I brought in.  24 Q   You were taught about the Tsuwinhl geets territory  25 you've described — you said in your affidavit by  26 the former Gwoimt, Austin Mathews?  27 A    Yes.  28 Q   As well as others that you have described.  Did  29 Austin Mathews ever tell you that he described the  30 Gwoimt territories to an officer, to a Mr. Mortimer  31 or Mr. Muirhead?  32 A   No, I am not aware of that.  33 Q   Mr. Macaulay or Mr. Mackenzie has provided me with a  34 file which appear to relate to the trapline.  In  3 5 that map is a trapline — is a sketch of a trapline.  36 Have you ever seen a map like that before?  37 A   No, this is the first time.  I have never seen a map  3 8 like that before.  39 Q   And I'm showing you, it appears, although I haven't  40 taken the file apart that there is a letter dated  41 June 10, 193 5 from CD. Muirhead to Mr. Mortimer,  42 the Indian agent.  Have you ever seen a copy of that  43 letter before?  44 A   No, I didn't.  45 Q   And there is a letter of July 16, 1935 that's  46 unsigned, but it appeared to be from Mr. Mortimer to  47 Mr. Muirhead in response.  Have you ever seen that? 50  F. Wale (for Plaintiffs)  Re-exam by Mr. Grant  1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  A  Q  No.  A  Q  MR. GRANT:  Did your — I guess Austin Mathews, would it be fair  to say your uncle?  Yes.  Did your uncle Austin Mathews ever advise you of  whether he was consulted about the boundaries of the  trapline by any representatives of Fish and  Wildlife, the game warden or DIA?  No.  I would like to mark those three documents as  exhibit for identification as they are the three I  put to the witness.  I have no problem if you wish  copies to be made.  MR. MACAULAY: Well, I will provide copies for those who want  copies.  If you want to mark them as exhibits it's  all right with me, and I understand it is all right  with Mr. Mackenzie.  We will put them in as exhibits proper.  I think  what you should do is mark the sketch as Exhibit 4,  the June 10, 1935 letter from Muirhead to Mortimer  as Exhibit 5, and the July 16, 1935 letter from  Mortimer to Muirhead as Exhibit 6.  (EXHIBIT 4:  Sketch)  (EXHIBIT 5:  Letter dated June 10, 1935 from  Muirhead to Mortimer)  (EHXIBIT 6:  Letter dated July 16, 1935 from  Mortimer to Muirhead)  MR. GRANT:  MR.  GRANT:  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  You were asked about Arthur Sampson and you said he  was close to your mother or related to your mother.  Do you know how he is related to your mother?  No, I don't.  She always talks about Arthur Sampson,  Now, there is more than one Arthur Sampson, isn't  there?  Yes, the late Arthur Sampson of Glen Vowell.  The Arthur Sampson you are talking about is not the  late Arthur Sampson who was the father of Abel  Sampson, is it?  That's the person, yeah.  He is the father of Abel Sampson?  Yes.  MR. MACKENZIE:  Well, that was a leading question, but I don't  object to it.  That was shockingly leading, but I 5  x  F. Wale (for Plaintiffs)  Re-exam by Mr. Grant  1 can't object to it.  It's too late.  2 MR. GRANT:  Well, if you don't object to it —  3 MR. MACKENZIE:  That's right, don't say anything.  4 MR. GRANT:  The answer wasn't what was lead.  5 MR. MACKENZIE:  Well said.  6 MR. GRANT:  Would you have objected if it was?  7 MR. MACKENZIE:  You're right.  8 MR. GRANT:  9 Q   Once again respecting the Nangeese territory that  10 you've talked about, you don't know when — you  11 indicated your mother referred to a murder that took  12 place and that's how you got the territory.  Did  13 your mother tell you when that occurred?  14 A   No.  15 Q   I just want to ask you a couple of questions about  16 your father's estate.  When did your father — your  17 father William Wale, he died in 1974?  18 A   1974, yes.  19 Q   Right.  Now, do you know if his estate — if his  20 will has been finalized by the Department of Indian  21 Affairs yet?  22 A   That I don't know.  23 Q   Okay.  Are you aware that in 1977 the Department of  24 Indian Affairs could not locate your father's will?  25 A   No, I wasn't aware of it.  26 MR. MACAULAY:  What was that?  27 MR. GRANT:  They are your clients, Mr. Macaulay and it is in  2 8 your file. I am only leading, Mr. Macaulay, what I  29 was asking and it wasn't leading.  I was asking him  3 0 if he was aware of something.  31 MR. MACKENZIE:  Okay.  3 2 MR. GRANT:  33 Q   Are you aware that in 1976 as late as November 26,  34 1986 your father's will or estate had not yet been  35 completed by the Department of Indian Affairs?  36 A   I am not aware of it.  37 Q Some would say several decades. Mr. Macaulay asked  3 8 you about a fishing site station. Do you know of a  3 9 fishing station on the Bulkley River directly above  40 the mouth of Mission Creek?  41 A   Yes.  42 Q   And do you know if that's used by any members of  43 your house?  44 A   Not now since the name has been passed onto a  45 different person.  46 Q   And what was the name that was passed on that that  47 fishing site went with? F.  Wale   (for  Plaintiffs)  Re-exam by Mr.   Grant  A*yg«.   /f~^j&sw6l0  1 A   Gyetdemgaldou.  2 Q   And is that the house of James White?  3 A   Yes.  4 MR. GRANT:  Those are all my questions, Mr. Wale.  Thank you  5 very much for your patience.  6 (PROCEEDINGS CONCLUDED)  7  8  9 I hereby certify the foregoing to  10 be a true and accurate transcript  11 of the proceedings herein to the  12 best of my skill and ability.  13  14  15    .-- --      16 LISA FRANKO,^OFFICIAL REPORTER  17 UNITED REPORTING SERVICE LTD.  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47


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