Delgamuukw Trial Transcripts

Cross-Examination on Affidavit of Arthur Risdale British Columbia. Supreme Court Dec 8, 1988

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 <3ln tlj* ^ixprzm* Court of J2rittBlj Columbia  Na 0843  Smithers Registry  December 8, 1988  Smithers, B. C.  BETWEEN:  AND  DELGAMUUKW, also know as KEN MULDOE,  suing on his own behalf and on behalf  of all other members of the HOUSE OF  DELGAMUUKW, and others,  HER MAJESTY THE QUEEN IN RIGHT OF  PROVINCE OF BRITISH COLUMBIA and  THE ATTORNEY-GENERAL FOR CANADA,  Plaintiffs;  THE  Defendants,  CROSS-EXAMINATION ON AFFIDAVIT  OF  ARTHUR RIDSDAL.E <3Jn tl]£ ^upvemt Court of JSritislj Columbia  Na 0843  Smithers Registry  December 8, 1988  Smithers, B. C.  BETWEEN  AND  DELGAMUUKW, also know as KEN MULDOE,  suing on his own behalf and on behalf  of all other members of the HOUSE OF  DELGAMUUKW, and others,  Plaintiffs;  HER MAJESTY THE QUEEN IN RIGHT OF THE  PROVINCE OF BRITISH COLUMBIA and  THE ATTORNEY-GENERAL FOR CANADA,  Defendants.  CROSS-EXAMINATION ON AFFIDAVIT  OF  ARTHUR RIDSDALE  P.R. GRANT, Esq.  D. O'BYRNE, Esq.  3.A. MACAULAY, Esq  appearing for the Plaintiffs  appearing for Her Majesty the  Queen in right of the Province  of British Columbia  appearing for the Attorney-  General of Canada INDEX OF WITNESSES FOR THE PLAINTIFFS  NAME . PAGE  ARTHUR RIDS DALE  cross-exar by Mr. O'Eyrne 1  cross-exam by Mr. Macaulay 32  re-exam by Mr. Grant 33 INDEX TO EXHIBITS  Number  Description  Page Number  Interrogatory Affidavit of Arthur  Ridsdale with attached questions  Trial Exhibit 688 as Amended  20  27 1  A. Ridsdale (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. 0'Byrne  1 SMITHERS, B.C.  2 DECEMBER 8, 1988  3  4 ARTHUR RIDSDALE, a witness herein called  5 on behalf of the Plaintiffs, having been  6 duly sworn, testifies as follows:  7  8 CROSS^EXAMINATION_BY_MRi_QiBYRNE:  9 Q  Mr. Ridsdale, could you state your full name, please?  10 A  Arthur Ridsdale, no middle name.  11 Q  All right.  And how old are you, sir?  12 A  I'm 70 years old.  13 Q  And where do you live?  14 A  I live in Hazelton.  15 Q  How long have you lived in Hazelton?  16 A  Off and on all my life.  17 Q  All right.  And the times when you've been off, where  18 else have you lived?  19 A  I lived in Telkwa for a few years and I've already  20 lived in Houston for a few years.  21 Q  And I take it you are now retired, are you?  22 A  Retired, yes.  23 Q  And during the time that you worked, what did you —  24 type of work did you do?  25 A  Oh, I mostly logging, little bit of coal mining.  26 Mostly logging.  27 Q  And what type of work did you do in the logging  28 industry?  29 A  I've done mostly falling and buck, that sort of stuff.  30 Q  Bucking and stuff like that, is that what you said?  31 A  Yeah, mostly bush work.  32 Q  Where were you primarily employed in the logging  33 industry, what area?  34 A  Oh, when I was living in Telkwa it was mostly around  35 the Smithers area here and in the Houston area.  I  36 lived in Houston, mostly the Houston area.  37 Q  Were you working south of Houston or north of Houston?  38 A  Possibly north of Houston.  3 9 Q  Can you give me some area or name of a lake or  40 something up there?  41 MR. GRANT:  In the area he worked?  42 MR. 0'BYRNE:  43 Q  In the area you worked, yes?  44 A  I worked some in the mills there, right in the big  45 mill like Northwood for awhile, bucking there in the  46 landing, and then I worked in the mill.  47 Q  All right.  When you were doing bush work north of 2  A. Ridsdale (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. 0'Byrne  1  2  3  A  4  Q  5  A  6  Q  7  8  A  9  10  11  Q  12  A  13  Q  14  15  A  16  17  18  19  Q  20  A  21  22  23  Q  24  MR. GRA1  25  MR. O'B'  26  Q  27  A  28  29  Q  30  A  31  Q  32  A  33  Q  34  35  A  36  37  Q  38  39  A  40  Q  41  A  42  Q  43  A  44  Q  45  A  46  Q  47  A  Houston, about how many miles north of Houston were  you working?  Oh, I worked about 20 miles, I guess.  Twenty miles north?  Yeah.  And when you were working in the Smithers area did you  work north or south or east or west of Smithers?  Mostly north of here.  Yeah, I worked little bit of  south in Houston too, in Telkwa, and north of Smithers  here.  How far north of Smithers would you have worked?  Oh, about 130 miles.  And did the area that you were working have a name  attached to it at all?  Well, it's been quite awhile now, but I can tell you  who — different guys I worked for. Worked for Bill  Morris Logging here when he was going, he is retired  too, and there was Wieden Logging.  Wieden?  Wieden Logging here in Smithers and Telkwa, and Kennet  Logging, that was in Telkwa also. We logged a couple  of places south of Telkwa.  All right.  Do you own any land?  Registered in fee simple you mean?  BYRNE:  Yes?  Not much.  What little land I own myself I sold after  I moved away from Houston.  You owned some land in Houston?  Yeah.  How much did you own?  Five acres.  And can you tell me where in relation to Houston this  five acres was?  Five miles. About five miles, four miles this side of  Houston.  And by that you mean it would be four miles west of  Houston?  Yeah, west of Houston.  And —  Along Highway 16.  And you owned that in your own name alone?  Yes.  Was — were you married at the time?  Yes, I'm married.  My wife is sitting right there.  Was it in your name and your wife's name at that time?  Yeah, we usually have the thing joint. 3  A. Ridsdale (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. 0'Byrne  1 Q  All right.  Just for the record, what is your wife's  2 name?  3 A  Martha Ridsdale.  4 Q  When you had that five acres of land, what did you use  5 it for?  6 A  Mostly just a homestead, little garden plot.  7 Q  Did you have any livestock that you kept?  8 A  No, no. We never carried any livestock, we just  9 bought it — just a place to live while I was working  10 there.  11 Q  And how long did you own it?  12 A  Oh, about 12 years, I guess.  13 Q  Can you tell me the approximate years that would have  14 been that you owned it?  15 A  Let's see.  When I retired, five years ago.  See, I've  16 retired in '85, I was — in about '70 I guess, '70 to  17 '83.  18 Q  I take it you just purchased that land, did you?  19 A  I just purchased it the length of time I was going to  20 be there and then I sold it later.  21 Q  Now, you've already told me you are married, sir. You  22 have children?  23 A  I have now five children but they are all grown up and  24 left.  25 Q  All right.  26 A  Out on their own.  27 Q  Any grandchildren?  28 A  Yes.  I have — I can't keep track of them.  29 Q  More than five?  30 A  Oh yes, more than five, yup.  31 Q  Now, before you is what I'm advised has been marked as  32 Exhibit 594 in these proceedings and it's an  33 affidavit?  34 A  Um-hmm.  35 Q  And it sets out in the first paragraph:  36  37 "I, Arthur Ridsdale, Hereditary Chief, of the  38 Village of Gitanmaax, in the Province of British  3 9 Columbia, make oath and say as follows:"  40  41 And it's four pages?  42 A  Yes.  43 Q  And on the last page, and I'm showing you that now,  44 appears to be a signature.  Is that your signature?  45 A  That's right, that's my signature.  46 Q  And this indicates it was signed on the 10th day of  47 May, 1988 at — 4  A. Ridsdale (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. 0'Byrne  1 A  Hazelton.  2 Q  Hazelton.  Sorry, I'm reading upside down.  3 A  Yes.  4 Q  And this four-page affidavit sets out a description in  5 paragraph 5 of some territories; is that correct?  6 A  Um-hmm, right.  7 Q  Okay.  I would just like to ask you a few questions  8 about how this affidavit came about. When were you  9 first approached to swear this affidavit?  10 A  Oh, I didn't sign it right away.  I couldn't tell you  11 just the exact date or anything, but I was approached  12 before this time.  I can't recall what — how long  13 before I signed this.  14 Q  Would it be in the year 1988?  15 A  No, I think it would be before that, because I was  16 approached first about it, that's what I'm saying.  17 Q  Who first approached you about it?  18 A  I'm thinking — I believe it was Neil John was came  19 and visited me.  20 Q  That would be Neil John Sterritt?  21 A  Yeah.  22 Q  And was the affidavit explained to you, or were you  23 told what it was he wanted you to do?  24 A  No.  25 MR. GRANT:  At the first or when it was signed?  26 MR. O'BYRNE:  I'm talking about the visit with Mr. Neil John  27 Sterritt.  28 MR. GRANT:  First approach?  29 A  Yes, he wanted to know if I knew the territory.  30 MR. O'BYRNE:  31 Q  And perhaps we'll just identify that. What is the  32 name of this territory?  33 A  Madii Lii territory.  34 Q  All right.  And that was the territory you were  35 discussing with Mr. Sterritt?  36 A  Right.  37 Q  Just pause there.  Did you discuss any other  38 territories with Mr. Sterritt at that first meeting?  3 9 A  No.  Not any other territory, no.  40 Q  Have you ever been approached to discuss any other  41 territory other than the Madii Lii territory that's in  42 your affidavit?  43 MR. GRANT:  By Mr. Sterritt?  44 A  No.  45 MR. O'BYRNE:  46 Q  Has anybody talked to you about any other territories  47 other than the Madii Lii territory? 5  A. Ridsdale (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. 0'Byrne  1  A  2  Q  3  A  4  Q  5  6  A  7  Q  8  A  9  Q  10  11  A  12  Q  13  14  A  15  Q  16  17  A  18  19  Q  20  21  A  22  Q  23  24  A  25  Q  26  27  A  28  29  Q  30  31  A  32  33  34  35  Q  36  A  37  38  Q  39  A  40  Q  41  42  43  A  44  45  46  Q  47  Only other person I ever talked to was Peter himself.  That's Mr. Peter Grant, your counsel?  Yes.  All right.  So you were approached by Mr. Sterritt  first sometime ago?  Um-hmm.  Is that correct?  Yes.  All right. And at that time did you and Mr. Sterritt  discuss the boundaries of the Madii Lii territory?  More or less, yeah.  Yeah, pretty well.  And were you discussing those boundaries in reference  to traplines?  Traplines, yes.  Okay. Did you discuss traplines first and then  boundaries?  Well, when you discuss traplines, usually you discuss  the boundaries, yes.  Okay.  But would you agree with me the most important  thing, though, was the traplines?  Traplines, yes.  Okay.  So you talked to Mr. Sterritt about the  traplines and the boundaries?  Um-hmm.  And then did you give him a description of the  territory at that time?  Yes.  And I believe I did because I know the country  pretty well.  All right.  But you — did Mr. Sterritt have a map  with him at that time?  No.  I think he just — we just were discussing it, I  think he was just taking down what I was telling him,  that's all. We didn't — I don't think we were  looking at any map, no.  Mr. Sterritt was asking you questions?  Yes, questions, and he was writing them down, that's  all.  And he was taking notes in longhand?  Right.  That's the first meeting.  Did you have another  meeting with Mr. Sterritt or somebody else in regard  to the boundaries of Madii Lii?  No, no.  I never had any meetings with anybody else,  other than Peter — that I ever knew of, other than  Peter.  So you only had one meeting, then, with Mr. Neil John  Sterritt regarding — 6  A. Ridsdale (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. 0*Byrne  1 A  Well, he visited me a couple of times asking about  2 certain of the little things, you know.  3 Q  In relation to the Madii Lii territory?  4 A  Yeah, to the Madii Lii territory. And I tell him and  5 he would leave.  6 Q  All right. Was he coming to you with questions?  7 A  Yes.  8 Q  And were you giving him corrections?  9 MR. GRANT: Well, wait a minute.  10 MR. O'BYRNE:  Let the witness answer.  If he doesn't understand  11 it he can say he doesn't understand it.  12 MR. GRANT: Well, your question doesn't follow.  He is coming  13 with questions — I think you just haven't finished  14 your question about corrections of what. There wasn't  15 a map, he was taking notes with questions, and that's  16 why I'm saying the question is unclear.  17 MR. O'BYRNE:  18 Q  Did you understand my question, Mr. Ridsdale?  19 A  Um-hmm.  20 Q  All right.  Please answer it?  21 A  Now that you were talking to Peter now, you kind of  22 put me off. Would you raise the question again,  23 please.  24 Q  Certainly.  I had asked you this:  Did he come — did  25 Neil John Sterritt come to you with questions?  26 A  Yes.  Not bunch of questions, but when he came to see  27 me once or twice and he just asked us what small  28 areas, you know, or certain things he didn't  29 understand or something like that, and that's what he  30 asked me about.  31 Q  And would you clarify it for him?  32 A  Oh, yes. What he wanted was for me to clarify it.  33 Q  And then did you correct his original thoughts,  34 perhaps, when he came to you?  35 A  I cleared — as clear as possible that I know of.  36 Q  All right. Do you recall approximately how many times  37 Mr. Sterritt would have come to you with those  38 questions?  3 9 A  Oh, no more than about three times at the very most.  40 Q  All right. Would it be accurate, then, to say that  41 your recollection is that you met with Mr. Sterritt  42 approximately four times, then, in total?  43 A  No.  Three times.  44 Q  Only three times?  45 A  Only three times.  46 Q  All right. When, then, did you first see this four-  47 page affidavit that you swore on the 10th of May, 7  A. Ridsdale (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. 0*Byrne  1  2  A  3  4  Q  5  A  6  Q  7  A  8  Q  9  10  A  11  Q  12  13  A  14  Q  15  A  16  Q  17  A  18  Q  19  A  20  21  Q  22  A  23  Q  24  25  A  26  Q  27  A  28  Q  29  30  A  31  Q  32  A  33  34  Q  35  A  36  Q  37  38  A  39  Q  40  41  A  42  Q  43  A  44  Q  45  A  46  Q  47  1988, at Hazelton?  Oh, let's see now.  It was about — say about a year  before last —  Okay.  — when I first got the affidavit.  The year before last?  Yeah.  And just so I have that, are you referring to 1987  or —  Yeah, 1987.  Okay, it was 1987. Would it be in the spring or the  fall of 1987?  Spring I believe it was.  Okay. Who brought it to you?  I believe I got that from you, Peter.  Again, you are referring to Mr. Grant?  Yeah.  Did Mr. Grant give you that document?  Mr. Grant is the only one I deal with, other than  Neil.  All right.  Those are the only two persons I deal with.  So Mr. Grant, then, produced this four-page affidavit  to you?  Um-hmm.  Sorry, is that yes?  Yes.  Thank you.  And was it in the same form that it is  today?  Pretty well, yeah.  Pretty well. Was there some difference in it?  Well, I don't think there should be much difference,  no.  Okay. Well, is there any difference?  No.  Okay.  And when it was shown to you by Mr. Grant, did  you read over the affidavit?  Yes, I read it over, yes.  Okay. And did you particularly read over paragraph 5,  the description of the land?  Yeah, um-hmm, yes.  And is that paragraph 5 accurate?  Pretty well. Pretty well.  When you say "pretty well" —  Yeah.  Perhaps you can elaborate upon that. What do you  mean? 8  A. Ridsdale (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. 0'Byrne  1 A  Because I read it over and it's — I've been over it  2 and I know all the — all what it said in there and  3 I've — I know the country.  4 Q  Okay.  But again, you said it's "pretty well  5 accurate".  I take it by that you mean it's not a  6 hundred percent accurate?  7 A  Well, it's close enough as far as I'm concerned.  8 Q  Okay. Well, how close is it?  9 A  It's very close.  It should be — it should be good, I  10 guess.  Should be good.  11 Q  Okay. Well, I'll come at it the other way.  Is there  12 any chance that some of that description in paragraph  13 5 is wrong?  14 A  No, no.  15 Q  All right.  16 A  Because you can't — I know the territory and there is  17 no way you can change it.  18 Q  Okay.  19 A  I know the country, I know the territory.  20 Q  Are those your words in paragraph 5?  21 MR. GRANT:  Including the words in brackets?  22 MR. O'BYRNE:  23 Q  The whole paragraph?  24 A  The whole paragraph?  25 MR. GRANT:  You can take your time to read it.  26 MR. O'BYRNE:  Oh yes, please do.  27 MR. GRANT:  Go ahead and read it before you answer.  28 A  Yes.  29 MR. O'BYRNE:  30 Q  Okay. You've read over paragraph 5 now, have you?  31 A  Yeah.  32 Q  Are those your words?  33 A  Well, I've repeated stuff like this, I don't know — I  34 wouldn't swear that this is my words, but I've — but  35 I still say I've been over the country and I know the  36 country quite well, so —  37 Q  When —  38 A  I've trapped on that country.  39 Q  Okay. When you described the territory to Neil John  40 Sterritt, did you describe it in exactly the same  41 words that are in paragraph 5? Just to be fair to Mr.  42 Ridsdale, what I'm after is did you say to Mr.  43 Sterritt, "Neil John, starting at the confluence of  44 the so-and-so creek," did you describe it that way to  45 Mr. Sterritt?  46 A  Well, the reason why he came back with those other two  47 visits, like he wanted to get the — some other 9  A. Ridsdale (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. 0'Byrne  1  2  3  4  Q  5  A  6  7  Q  8  9  A  10  Q  11  A  12  Q  13  14  15  16  A  17  Q  18  A  19  20  21  22  Q  23  A  24  25  26  27  Q  28  29  A  30  31  Q  32  A  33  34  35  Q  36  A  37  Q  38  39  A  40  41  42  43  Q  44  45  A  46  Q  47  creeks* names like, you know, they are in here.  But  he wanted me — he wanted the correct answers — or  the correct names.  All right.  So that was all we spoke on when the last time he  came.  What you were doing, then, is you were adding  additional detail to the original description —  Yes.  — you had given?  Right, right.  But when you described the territory of Madii Lii to  Mr. Sterritt, did you start off your description by  saying the words, "Starting at the confluence of  Fifteen Mile Creek," I'll use the English term?  Yes.  You always start at the starting point.  Why is that the starting point?  Well, that's where you start, that's where the line  starts, so when you head for your trapline you always  come to a starting point when you first get on the  trapline.  And did you always start at Fifteen Mile Creek?  Pretty well, yes.  Coming from Hazelton, yes, we  always start at Fifteen Mile Creek. That's right on  the road from Hazelton and you start at Fifteen Mile  Creek to go on your line.  You say almost always. Where is your other starting  point?  The other starting point is in the Madii Lii  territory.  Is there a specific point?  Yes.  There is two — there is two roads that go in  there, one each side of the mountain, Madii Lii  Mountain.  That's the other starting point?  That's the other starting point.  And in relation to Fifteen Mile Creek, can you tell me  where that is?  Fifteen Mile Creek is 15 miles out of Hazelton which  is the Indian name called Xsu wii luu Hlabit, that's  where — that's where the boundary starts, Xsu wii luu  Hlabit.  All right. Now, so Mr. Grant gave you that affidavit  to look over; is that correct?  Um-hmm, yes.  Okay. And what happened next? I'm going to when you  signed it, that's what I want to know? 10  A. Ridsdale (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. 0'Byrne  1 A  When did I sign this one?  2 Q  Well, did you make any corrections to the affidavit  3 after?  4 A  No.  5 Q  Okay.  6 A  No, no.  7 Q  So you read it over?  8 A  Yeah.  9 Q  Then what did you do?  10 A  Well, we discussed it.  11 Q  Sorry, who did you discuss it with?  12 A  With Peter.  13 Q  And what did you discuss?  14 A  The lay of the land, lay of the country, names of the  15 creeks, river.  16 Q  Why ~  17 A  Mountains.  18 Q  Why did you discuss that with Mr. Grant?  19 MR. GRANT: Well, I think now we are getting into — we are  20 getting into the solicitor's brief in his discussions  21 with me.  22 MR. O'BYRNE:  I'm not asking what was said, Mr. Grant, I'm just  23 asking why he talked to you.  24 MR. GRANT: Okay, fair enough.  25 A  Why did he talk to me?  26 MR. GRANT:  I just want the witness to understand my objection,  27 that you are not — you are not to discuss what you  28 discussed with me, but Mr. O'Byrne is asking you why  29 you had the discussion.  So you don't have to tell him  3 0 what you told me.  31 MR. O'BYRNE:  32 Q  Have I confused you, Mr. Ridsdale? I can back up.  33 A  No, no, no, you didn't confuse me.  Because that's —  34 when we talk, that's all we were always talking about,  35 the country, and when we were talk on hunting grounds  36 and traplines, that's what we discussed.  37 Q  All right.  So we will back up. You told me that when  38 you had the affidavit given to you by Mr. Grant, you  39 discussed it with Mr. Grant, then you were talking  40 about the mountains and the creeks, and I asked you  41 why you discussed that with Mr. Grant?  42 A  Why did I discuss it with Mr. Grant? Because we were  43 talking on the trapline.  44 Q  All right. You didn't make any corrections at all to  45 the affidavit?  46 A  No, I didn't make any correction.  47 Q  So the affidavit was correct, then, in your mind? 11  A. Ridsdale (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. O'Byrne  1 A Pretty well correct, yes.  I didn't see any point  2 where I should do any corrections on it.  3 Q Okay. When — do you recall actually signing your  4 name to the affidavit?  5 A Well, I couldn't — I couldn't remember the date or  6 anything.  7 Q Well, it's dated the 10th of May 1988.  8 A Well —  9 Q You just have no memory?  10 A Must have been then if it's dated the 10th.  11 Q Do you recall where you signed it, where in Hazelton?  12 A It must be at Peter's office because I can't be any  13 place else.  14 Q Do you know Mr. Gordon Sebastian, the commissioner who  15 took the affidavit?  16 A Yes, Gordon, yes.  17 Q Okay. When you signed your affidavit on the 10th of  18 May, were there any other people of Hazelton or  19 Gitksan people present?  20 MR. GRANT:  Besides Mr. Sebastian?  21 MR. O'BYRNE:  22 Q Besides Mr. Sebastian?  23 A Yeah, I don't think so.  24 Q Was Abel Brown there?  25 A I could not recall.  26 Q All right.  David Green?  27 A No, I couldn't recall that either.  28 Q Joshua McLean?  29 A No, I can't recall Joshua there.  30 Q Murray Moore?  31 MR. GRANT:  Mary Moore.  3 2    MR. O'BYRNE:  33 Q Mary Moore?  34 A Gee, I don't know now.  Mary Moore, she might have  35 been there.  36 Q Okay.  Sam Morrison?  37 A Gee, I don't remember him.  38 Q Neil B. Sterritt?  39 A Neil B. Sterritt, yeah.  40 Q That would be Neil Benjamin Sterritt, wouldn't it?  41 A Yeah, he might have been there.  42 Q Did you spend any time with Mr. Sebastian before you  43 signed your name to the affidavit, discussing the  44 affidavit, that's what I want to know?  45 A Well, his name is on here, so I might have been with  46 him.  47 Q But did you discuss the contents of the affidavit with 12  A.  Ridsdale   (for  Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr.  O'Byrne  1 Mr. Sebastian?  2 MR. GRANT:  In the — are you asking whether — you are asking  3 something different than whether the affidavit was  4 read to him, you are asking if there was discussion  5 about it?  6 MR. O'BYRNE:  7 Q  Yes?  8 A  Well, it doesn't matter with Sebastian, he was a  9 lawyer, and as far as — he is — he is one of the  10 house members anyway.  11 Q  What house is that?  12 A  That's Lax Seel house.  13 Q  Okay. But do you recall if there was any discussion  14 with Mr. Sebastian on the 10th of May, 1988, in  15 Hazelton, in regard to your affidavit?  16 A  I might have signed it in front of him, but I don't  17 remember.  I always figured it was with Peter, that's  18 the thing.  19 Q  You are confused about that right now?  20 A  Yeah, I'm confused about it now.  21 Q  All right.  Did you actually go to Mr. Grant's office  22 to sign it?  23 A  I'm sure I did.  I'm sure I did.  24 Q  All right.  In the affidavit in paragraph 3, you say  25 that you've obtained permission from — I'll use the  26 English name:  27  28 "Ben McKenzie Senior, a plaintiff in this action,  29 to describe and speak in respect of the Madii Lii  30 territory claimed by the House of Luutkudziiwus."  31  32 A  Luutkudziiwus.  33 Q  Thank you.  34 When did you obtain permission from Ben McKenzie  35 Senior?  36 A  Ben McKenzie Senior — it's hard to say because I've  37 always been with Ben McKenzie Senior ever since I was  38 a young fella, very young.  He is my brother and we  39 always work together in the early days when I was  40 quite young.  41 Q  He is your older brother, is he?  42 A  He is my older brother, yes.  43 Q  You and he have different surnames?  44 A  Yes.  45 Q  And I understand that you were adopted; is that  46 correct?  47 A  Right, right. 13  A. Ridsdale (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. O'Byrne  1  Q  2  A  3  Q  4  A  5  Q  6  A  7  8  9  Q  10  A  11  12  Q  13  A  14  Q  15  A  16  Q  17  A  18  Q  19  A  20  21  Q  22  23  A  24  Q  25  A  26  Q  27  28  A  29  Q  30  31  A  32  Q  33  A  34  Q  35  36  A  37  Q  38  MR. GRANT:  39  A  40  MR. GRANT:  41  MR. O'BYRN  42  Q  43  A  44  45  Q  46  47  And so you and Ben McKenzie then had the same mother?  No.  Same father?  No.  All right. You refer to Ben McKenzie as your brother?  Yeah.  I am an adopted son because my mother died at a  very young age, very young. As a matter of fact, I  was only a baby when Ben's mother adopted me.  All right.  Do you know —  So I've always had a feeling that Ben was my own  brother.  All right. Do you know your natural mother's name?  Sarah Williams.  And your natural father's name?  Al Falkner.  Al?  Falkner.  So you were adopted at a very young age?  Very young age.  I was a baby, as a matter of fact,  almost.  All right.  How is it that you come to have the name  Ridsdale, then, as opposed to Ben McKenzie?  That's my stepfather, his name was Ridsdale.  And his full name?  Roy Sidney Ridsdale.  Roy Sidney Ridsdale, all right.  So as you grew up  then, you and Ben McKenzie were as brothers?  As brothers and travelled together, yes.  He holds the chief name of — perhaps you should  pronounce it for me?  Luutkudziiwas.  Do you know when he took that name?  1945.  And you were present at the feast where he took the  name?  Yes, I was.  And do you recall how much he paid for the name?  Well —  No.  How much he paid into the feast?  IE:  Yes.  How much he paid in the feast, I can't rightly recall  what he did at the feast.  After 1945 then, Ben McKenzie was the person  responsible for and able to speak about the Madii Lii  territory; is that correct? 14  A.  Ridsdale   (for  Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by  Mr.  O'Byrne  1  A  2  Q  3  4  A  5  Q  6  7  A  8  9  10  11  12  Q  13  14  A  15  Q  16  17  A  18  19  20  Q  21  A  22  Q  23  24  25  26  A  27  28  Q  29  30  A  31  32  Q  33  34  35  A  36  37  38  Q  39  A  40  Q  41  42  43  A  44  Q  45  46  A  47  Q  Right.  After 1945, were you authorized to speak about the  Madii Lii territory by Ben McKenzie?  Oh, yes.  Okay. Do you recall when the first time it was that  you ever spoke about the territory?  Well, I've always spoke to it but it was never  nothing — nothing much because he had the control  while he was disabled and couldn't get around, and so  I never said anything because he done — him being  chief, he does all the talking, all the speaking.  Is this affidavit the first time that you've ever  spoken out publicly about the Madii Lii territory?  Yes.  And obviously, from your affidavit, you had to go and  obtain permission from Ben McKenzie to do that?  Yes.  I probably wouldn't — if Ben McKenzie isn't a  sick man today, probably he would have been doing this  instead of me.  The reason you are doing it is because he is ill?  Right.  But what I'm trying to understand is how long before  you swore the affidavit did you go and ask Ben  McKenzie's permission to speak about the territory at  Madii Lii in your affidavit?  Oh, I go down quite frequently, so I can't tell just  when I did.  Did you and Ben discuss the Madii Lii territory before  you swore the affidavit?  Never discussed much of it because he knew I knew it  anyways, so we never discussed anything.  But did you discuss it at all with him in regards to  any of the creeks or mountains or anything like that,  before you swore the affidavit?  No. Well yes, but that was when I was travelling with  him. We travelled together and camped and travelled  over these creeks and mountains.  That's when you were younger?  Yes.  And would Ben at times — Ben McKenzie Senior at times  point out various creeks and rivers and mountains to  you?  When we were travelling, yes.  And he would confirm that that's the boundary of the  Madii Lii territory?  Right. Yes, that's what he would do.  And so you learned some, all or part of the Madii Lii 15  A. Ridsdale (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. O'Byrne  1 territory boundaries from Ben McKenzie Senior?  2 A  Right, yes.  He wasn't — he wasn't present when I  3 travelled it myself alone.  4 Q  But if you had some doubt about an area on the  5 territory, you would go and talk with Ben McKenzie  6 Senior, correct?  7 MR. GRANT: Well, what time? In what time frame?  8 MR. O'BYRNE:  9 Q  At any time frame?  10 A  Not now.  I know the whole territory so I wouldn't  11 even discuss it with him now.  12 Q  When you were younger and travelling together, would  13 you ask Ben McKenzie Senior from time to time, "Well,  14 is that part of our territory?"  15 A  I would ask him, yes. And there is times that he  16 would tell me anyway what he knew.  17 Q  In your affidavit in paragraph 4, you say that you  18 were instructed about the Madii Lii territory and its  19 boundary by the former chief, Tom Campbell; is that  20 right?  21 A  Yes.  22 Q  Would it be correct also to say now that also Ben  23 McKenzie Senior also instructed you about the Madii  24 Lii territory?  25 A  Yeah. Well, I travelled with them both.  26 Q  And they both instructed you?  27 A  Yes.  28 Q  And just to confirm again today, Ben McKenzie Senior  29 is still alive today, isn't he?  30 A  Right, yes.  31 Q  He is rather ill?  32 A  Yes, he is quite ill.  33 Q  All right.  34 A  And he is quite very hard of hearing.  35 Q  Did anybody other than Tom Campbell, which you  36 mentioned in here, and Ben McKenzie Senior, instruct  37 you or point out any of the boundaries on the Madii  38 Lii territory to you?  3 9 A  Anybody else besides them?  40 Q  Yes?  41 A  No. They are the two leading chiefs and they are the  42 ones that we travel with most of the time, they are  43 the ones that always gives the instructions.  44 Q  This perhaps goes without saying, Mr. Ridsdale, but I  45 take it with your command of the English language you  46 were — this affidavit was not translated to you, was  47 it? 16  A.  Ridsdale   (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr.  O'Byrne  1 A  No.  2 Q  And did you have any trouble with any of the Gitksan  3 words that are in paragraph 5?  4 A  No.  5 Q  Okay.  6 A  I speak Gitksan quite fluently.  7 Q  Okay. Do you know when the last time Ben McKenzie was  8 on the Madii Lii territory?  9 A  About *75.  I guess it was around *75.  10 Q  How about you, when is the last time you were on the  11 Madii Lii territory?  12 A  I was up there last year.  I didn't go this year but I  13 was up there last year.  14 Q  Now, the three discussions you had with Mr. Sterritt,  15 Neil John Sterritt, about the Madii Lii territory, did  16 you at any time correct the northern boundary of the  17 Madii Lii territory for Mr. Sterritt?  18 A  I don't remember correcting any boundaries.  Mostly  19 what we talk about is creeks, names of creeks, just —  20 what he came to me for, to verify the names of the  21 creeks, that's all.  22 Q  So you would tell him the names of various creeks that  23 were on the territory?  24 A  Right.  25 Q  Same thing with mountains?  26 A  Same thing with mountains.  27 Q  Same thing with lakes?  28 A  Well, there is on that territory there is — there is  29 no lakes, but if there was, I surely would.  30 Q  Okay.  31 A  Because I would know where they are if they were.  32 Q  Ben McKenzie, I take it, has been sick for a number of  33 years now?  34 A  Yes, he has been sick for the last 15 years anyway.  35 Q  And you spoke on his behalf in this lawsuit by  36 answering some interrogatory questions; is that  37 correct?  38 A  I probably did.  3 9 Q  Okay.  I'll show you — a copy for you, Mr. Grant,  40 copy for Mr. Macaulay, and copy for the witness.  41 MR. GRANT:  This is an edited version of the questions and  42 answers?  43 MR. O'BYRNE:  44 Q  Yes.'  45 What I'm showing you,  Mr.  Ridsdale,   is another  46 affidavit and  it  starts off — and it gives your  47 Gitksan name.     Perhaps you could just pronounce  that 17  A. Ridsdale (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. O'Byrne  1 for us?  2 A  Luutkudziiwus.  3 Q  Pardon me?  4 A  Oh, Luusgaux.  5 Q  And I will just spell it for the record.  It's spelt  6 L-U-U-S-G-A-U-X?  7 A  Yes.  8 Q  Okay.  "Also known as Arthur Ridsdale, make oath and  9 says as follows." And then perhaps you could just go  10 over to page 2.  I want to confirm your signature on  11 page two. That is your signature down there, is it,  12 sir?  13 A  Um-hmm.  14 Q  Sir, is that yes?  15 A  Yes.  16 Q  Thank you. And this is sworn, then, the third day of  17 February, 1987?  18 A  Yes.  19 Q  Okay.  Now, just backing up to paragraph 2 on the  20 other page, you say that, "Ben McKenzie, who holds the  21 name Luutkudziiwus —"  22 A  Yes.  23 Q  "— is very ill and is unable to answer these  24 questions himself"?  25 A  Right.  26 Q  And then paragraph 3 you set out that you are  27 answering questions on his behalf, as if you were Ben  28 McKenzie Senior?  29 A  Yes.  30 Q  Okay. And then I'm just going to ask you to turn to  31 the third page that's there, and it sets out that this  32 is Exhibit A to your affidavit?  33 A  Yes.  34 Q  And it gives some details. Do you remember answering  35 those questions?  36 A  Yes.  37 Q  I'm directing your attention specifically —  38 MR. GRANT: Just can I say something? Just so that it's clear  3 9 for the record, for example, question one refers to a  40 birth date. That is the birth date of Ben McKenzie  41 Senior.  42 THE WITNESS:  Um-hmm.  43 MR. GRANT: And in most cases, the answers would be as though  44 they were Ben McKenzie answering them.  I just want  45 that to be clear.  46 MR. O'BYRNE:  47 Q  You answered that as if you were Ben McKenzie Senior? 18  A. Ridsdale (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. O'Byrne  1  A  2  Q  3  A  4  Q  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  A  26  Q  27  A  28  Q  29  30  31  32  33  34  A  35  36  Q  37  A  38  Q  39  40  A  41  Q  42  43  44  A  45  46  Q  47  A  Right.  That's what you said in your affidavit, correct?  Right, yeah.  Okay.  Now I want to direct you to question 87.  If  you turn to the next page, it's an edited version, and  the question is this:  87  Q "What is your personal knowledge of:  (a) the boundaries protected and  maintained by the members of your  House and their ancestors?"  The answer you gave was:  "When Mary Moore's mother died there was  a making of a map which identified the  territory. The chiefs were present at  this time; Steve Robinson stated the  territory that went with the name."  It also says, "See answer to question 59(c)."  I'll  get to that in a minute.  Did you give that answer to that question on  behalf of Ben McKenzie Senior?  I must have.  But do you recall saying that?  I'm not too clear on it, but I could have.  I see you are looking at 59(c).  I was going to get to  that in a minute because it's part of the answer and  that's why it's included. But just go back to  question 87, if you would, third page. Do you recall  saying those words about Mary Moore's mother dying and  the making of a map?  I must have okayed it. There is — I believe I must  have spoken on this for Ben.  All right.  Yeah.  Well, do you recall the time when Mary Moore's mother  died?  No, I couldn't recall it.  All right. What I'm after, you refer there to the  making of a map which identified the territory. Was  there such a map?  That would be — I'm speaking for Ben, but I wouldn't  be present so I can't answer that.  Pardon me, you wouldn't?  I wasn't present if they did make the map, so I 19  A. Ridsdale (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. O'Byrne  1 couldn't — so I couldn't answer that.  2 Q  Did Ben McKenzie Senior tell you that when Mary  3 Moore's mother died there was a making of a map which  4 identified the territory?  5 A  I don't recall talking to him about it. As I said, he  6 was very hard to hear and right now — and we don't  7 speak that often on this.  I want to tell him  8 something and I try to tell him the best way I can  9 because he is very hard of hearing, so I just — so I  10 don't know as I did.  11 Q  All right.  Well, the answer to question 87 appears in  12 the Schedule A to your affidavit which you swore and  13 you said that all these things were true. Do you  14 recall doing that?  15 A  Well, if this is true, then that must be true then,  16 because —  17 Q  Well, what I'm trying to figure out, Mr. Ridsdale, is  18 where that information has come from that's in the  19 answer to question 87(a)  20 MR. GRANT: The information about Mary Moore's mother dying and  21 the making of a map, I was just clarifying, you nodded  22 that that's what you were referring to?  23 MR. O'BYRNE:  24 Q  Yes, that's correct. Do you know where that  25 information came from, Mr. Ridsdale?  26 A  Well, I wasn't present when they made the map and like  27 I said before, it wasn't brought to my attention,  2 8 so —  29 Q  All right.  3 0 A  I don't want to say anything on it.  31 Q  But you said something on it in your affidavit?  3 2 A  Yeah.  33 Q  Do you know why you said that?  34 A  Because I read this and I understand what's said here,  35 all these birth dates and all this other stuff, I know  36 about that.  37 Q  But you don't know about the making of the map?  38 A  No, no. That's why I would rather not say anything on  39 it.  40 Q  Okay.  I just like to know why it's there. Do you  41 have any idea why it's there?  42 A  No, because I wasn't present, that's the reason why I  43 will not answer on it.  44 Q  All right. Well let's go to the next question, maybe  45 that's easier. Also in the answer to this you say,  46 "See answer to question 59(c)," and I've produced  47 that, and it starts: 20  A.  Ridsdale   (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr.  O'Byrne  1 59 Q "If so,  2 (c) what are the boundaries of your  3 House's territory?"  4  5 And the answer that is given in your Schedule A to  6 your affidavit is:  7  8 "The approximate boundaries of my  9 territory are included in the maps which  10 are set out in Schedule 'C except for my  11 fishing sites. Luutkudziiwus also has  12 fishing sites at Kitsegukla."  13  14 Is that the answer you gave there?  15 A  Yes, I believe I did, but that I don't know, I just —  16 MR. O'BYRNE: All right.  I would like to have this marked as an  17 exhibit at this time.  18 MR. GRANT:  That would be —  19 MR. O'BYRNE: What I'm asking —  20 MR. GRANT:  — the interrogatory affidavit together with  21 questions 59 and 87.  22 MR. O'BYRNE:  Together with questions 1, 2, 3, 4, 5 and 6 which  23 are page 1 and shows the Exhibit A.  24 MR. GRANT:  Yes.  Yes, but you are putting it in only because it  25 shows Exhibit A on that page?  26 MR. O'BYRNE:  That's correct.  27 MR. GRANT:  No objection.  28  2 9 (EXHIBIT,! - Interrogatory Affidavit of Arthur  30            Ridsdale with attached questions)  31  3 2 MR. GRANT:  Just off the record?  33 MR. O'BYRNE:  Yes, that's fine.  34 (BRIEF  ADJOURNMENT  TAKEN)  35 MR.   O'BYRNE:  36 Q  Now, Mr. Ridsdale, just before the break, I had been  37 showing you what's now been marked as Exhibit 1 in  38 this cross-examination, and that was your affidavit,  39 and I'm just drawing — that's the affidavit in  40 relation to the interrogatories that you swore back in  41 February of 1987, okay?  42 A  Um-hmm.  43 Q  And I was drawing your attention to the answer to  44 question 5 9(c) where you referred to a map which is  45 set out in Schedule C to these questions that you  46 answered back in 1987, all right.  I want to show you  47 that map now, that's why I'm just drawing your 21  A. Ridsdale (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. O'Byrne  1 attention to this, okay?  2 A  You are going to show me the map?  3 Q  That's correct. As referred to in the answer to this  4 question 59 (c) .  5 MR. GRANT:  He has got a different —  6 MR. O'BYRNE: Yes, I understand it's a different affidavit.  I'm  7 now showing to you what I have been advised has been  8 marked as Exhibit 688 at trial. Do you have a copy,  9 Mr. Grant?  10 MR. GRANT:  Yes, I wouldn't mind.  11 MR. O'BYRNE:  12 Q  All right. And this is entitled — first of all, it  13 has "Trial EX 688" marked on it, then it has  14 "Territory of Luutkudziiwus"?  15 A  Luutkudziiwus.  16 Q      Thank you.     I'll  just call   it Ben McKenzie Senior.  17 A  Um-hmm.  18 Q  Then it says, "This is part one of two to Schedule C  19 to the interrogatory response of," and it's your name,  20 "also known as Arthur Ridsdale, dated second day of  21 February, 1987"?  22 A  Um-hmm.  23 Q  All right. Do you recognize this document?  24 A  That's the — the lines are very small, but — it's  25 very small but I can make it out.  26 Q  You've seen this document before, have you?  27 A  Yeah, yeah, yeah.  This is a very small scale, though,  28 this.  29 Q  And it has in handwriting some names that are written  30 on there in, I believe, in Gitksan; is that correct?  31 A  Um-hmm.  32 Q  And it has, for example, Madii Lii and there is an  33 arrow pointing into —  34 A  In that area in here.  35 Q  And that area, you would agree with me, is outlined by  36 a black border?  37 A  Black border, yes.  38 Q  Okay.  Is that the territory of Madii Lii as you know  39 it?  40 A  Yes.  41 Q  Okay.  42 MR. GRANT: Well, let the witness have an opportunity to look at  43 the black border before he answers. He answered  44 immediately without a chance to look at it.  45 A  Yes  46 MR. O'BYRNE:  47 Q  All right. Up in the northern part of the border 22  A. Ridsdale (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. O'Byrne  1 area, right at the very north, that's in around two  2 creeks known as Geel Creek?  3 A  Yes.  4 Q  And there is also Cateline or Kathleen?  5 A  Cateline.  6 Q  Those two creeks are not on the territory of Madii  7 Lii?  8 A  No.  9 Q  Ben McKenzie Senior did some trapping up around the  10 headwaters of Geel Creek, though, didn't he?  11 A  Geel Creek, no.  He — he — I don't think he did, not  12 to my knowledge.  13 Q  Did he —  14 A  Because I was — like I said, I was away for a few  15 years living in Houston and he could still be  16 trapping, and what he did I don't know.  Maybe he did.  17 Q  All right.  18 A  But I am — I wouldn't swear to it.  19 Q  Did Ben McKenzie Senior ever trap along Cateline  20 Creek?  21 A  I don't think so, I don't think he would.  22 Q  All right. Did he have any trapline cabins built on  23 either Geel Creek or Cateline Creek?  24 A  Unless those creeks run through his territory, I don't  25 think he would.  No, he wouldn't have any cabins  26 there.  27 Q  Did you ever go to any cabins of Ben McKenzie's up in  28 the northern part of the territory?  29 A  He only — the only cabin he had was up in this  30 territory here, was a cabin right in about this area,  31 right in about the middle of it here.  32 Q  All right.  33 A  That is the only — and he had one down in this area  34 here.  35 Q  All right. Well, can you give me the — there is a  36 Gitksan name for the creek that you described?  37 A  Xsi wii luu Gesxwit, that's the name of the creek.  38 That's this creek comes up here, then it fades away  3 9 and then you swing away — then the territory swings  40 away over this way and then it comes down here and it  41 follows this line here and down here.  42 MR. GRANT:  The witness is not following — is pointing to  43 Exhibit 688 but is not following the black line on it,  44 after he goes up from Natlan Creek, for the record.  45 MR. O'BYRNE: All right.  Let's stop a second.  There is a creek  46 there called Nichyeskwa, it's on the map in English.  47 Can you read that? 23  A. Ridsdale (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. O'Byrne  1 MR. GRANT: Well, just before you go — just a moment, before  2 you go further, I'm not sure, but I think it should be  3 marked where the witness is pointing to or else you  4 should somehow put it on the record.  5 MR. O'BYRNE:  I'm going to, that's what I'm trying to do.  6 MR. GRANT:  Okay.  7 MR. O'BYRNE:  8 Q  There is a creek here and I'll give you the spelling  9 of it, it N-I-C-H-Y-E-S-K-W-A. Do you see that?  10 A  Yes.  11 Q  How do you pronounce that, sir?  12 A  I don't think that name is on their territory.  I'm  13 darn sure it's not.  14 Q  You think your territory is south of that creek?  15 A  Yes.  I'm pretty sure it is.  16 Q  All right. Well, if I gave you a pen, could you draw  17 on that for me and show me where your territory is  18 south of that creek?  19 A  If the road ends here so it would have to be down in  20 this area here.  21 MR. GRANT: Where is that road?  22 A  Right here.  If this is the road that's the end of it  23 there.  The territory just right at the edge of that  24 road, comes along here then comes down here and down  25 here.  26 MR. O'BYRNE:  27 Q  Perhaps you could just draw the line, then, as you  28 think it should be on that map.  29 Just for the record, you've put a blue line on  30 there, correct?  31 A  Yeah.  It's some place in there.  32 Q  That's approximation?  33 A  That's approximation, yeah.  34 Q  Do you have any explanation as to why in your  35 interrogatories, when you answered all those  36 questions, that you said the territory ran north of  37 that creek, Nichyeskwa?  38 A  Well, it shouldn't have been that far.  I don't  3 9 recognize that name.  I never heard of that name on my  40 trapline.  41 Q  You've never heard of that name on your trapline.  42 Have you ever —  43 A  I heard all these names, all these names.  44 MR. GRANT: He is indicating the names on the south of the  45 Suskwa River that are in Gitksan.  46 MR. O'BYRNE:  47 Q  Had you ever travelled the northern part of your 24  A. Ridsdale (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. O'Byrne  1 territory south of this creek, Nichyeskwa?  2 A  Nichyeskwa. No, I've never been in that area, no.  3 Q  You are indicating north of the pen line?  4 A  Yeah.  5 MR. GRANT:  North of Nichyeskwa?  6 A  Never been up in that area.  7 MR. O'BYRNE:  8 Q  Do you have any explanation, then, as to why the  9 boundary is shown north of the blue line that you've  10 now drawn, in answer to your interrogatories?  11 A  See, that trapline should be in that area.  12 Q  Whose trapline?  13 A  Walter Wilson's. What's his name now. Walter Wilson,  14 Djogaslee.  15 MR. GRANT:  The witness when he said that Walter  16 what's-his-name's trapline should be in that area, and  17 then referred to him as Walter Wilson, he was pointing  18 to the area north of Nichyeskwa Creek.  19 MR. O'BYRNE:  20 Q  I'm going back to the — perhaps we'll pause for a  21 second and I will ask to have this marked — sorry,  22 it's a trial exhibit, I don't have to.  23 I'm trying to get something straight, Mr.  24 Ridsdale.  In your affidavit in February of 1987, in  25 response to the questions and the interrogatories that  26 you swore were true —  27 A  Yeah.  28 Q  — you said that:  29  30 "The approximate boundaries of my territory are  31 included in the maps which are set out in Schedule  32 'C except for my fishing sites."  33  34 A  Yes.  35 Q  Okay.  Then you mention the fishing sites at  36 Kitsegukla.  Is this one of the two maps? This is the  37 map that deals with Madii Lii, correct?  38 A  Um-hmm.  39 Q  All right.  Now, in 1987, did you agree that the  40 territory, the northern territory of the boundary of  41 Madii Lii was north of Nichyeskwa?  42 A  No, I never heard. We would be talking about this  43 name now if it was north. We've mentioned all the  44 names on there and why isn't that name not on there?  45 MR. GRANT:  Indicating his affidavit, Exhibit 594.  46 A  Yeah.  I am sure it would be on our affidavit if it  47 was mentioned there. 25  A.   Ridsdale   (for  Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr.  O'Byrne  1 MR. O'BYRNE:  2 Q  So you have no explanation as to why the boundary is  3 shown on this map —  4 A  No, I don't think that boundary is accurate.  5 Q  But you —  6 MR. GRANT:  Referring to Exhibit 688.  7 MR. O'BYRNE: All right. But you swore in your interrogatories  8 that it was an accurate boundary; is that correct?  9 MR. GRANT: Wait. He swore — he stated in his interrogatories  LO it was the approximate boundaries of the territory.  LI MR. O'BYRNE:  L2 Q  All right. Well, at that time, then, you thought this  L3 was the approximate boundary of the territory; is that  L4 correct?  L5 A  I might have thought it was then, but when I look at  L6 it now, it's — with that name in there I don't think  L7 it is.  L8 Q  Well, did you look at this map which is marked Exhibit  L9 688 when you swore your interrogatories in February of  20 1987?  21 A  Yeah.  But I — this is the area we always worked in  22 here, and that's what I'm always interested in.  I  23 never cared about up here.  24 MR. GRANT:  He was indicating the southern part of the Madii Lii  25 territory with his hand on Exhibit 688 as the —  26 A  Madii Lii travels like that, you see, and that's where  27 we trap along Madii Lii, back in Madii Lii here. We  28 don't go wander way off on somebody else's territory.  29 You stay within your own boundaries, you don't go  30 wandering off.  31 MR. GRANT:  For the record — or are you finished with that  32 area?  33 MR. O'BYRNE:  34 Q  No.  Just getting started, Mr. Grant.  35 Are there any other differences between Exhibit  36 688 and the description that you gave in your  37 affidavit of May 10th, 1988 in paragraph 5?  38 A  Yes. All the names here are all in this area here,  39 see. That's all what's in here is all down here, all  40 in here.  41 Q  All right. You are indicating the southern part of —  42 A  Yes. But not way up — way up here.  43 Q  All right.  I just want to be clear now, Mr. Ridsdale.  44 You are saying that all the names that are in  45 paragraph 5 of your affidavit of May 10th, 1988, are  46 in the southern part of — below the blue line that  47 you've now drawn on 688? 26  A. Ridsdale (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. O'Byrne  1 A  Yeah, yeah, right.  2 Q  Now, my question is dealing with that southern area.  3 Does this map now, Exhibit 688, reflect accurately the  4 description that you gave in paragraph 5?  5 A  Yes, yes.  6 Q  Are there any differences?  7 A  Not — no difference at all, because I see all these  8 names are all in our territory, right there and there  9 is all these names, all — it's all telling the truth  10 on this part here but not this one up here.  11 Q  So with that blue line —  12 A  Yeah.  13 Q  — this Schedule C to your interrogatories marked  14 Exhibit 688 is now a reflection of your affidavit?  15 A  Um-hmm.  16 MR. GRANT:  I object, I object.  Don't answer that question.  17 The witness had said that he made an approximate line  18 and he was very tentative.  He said, "If the road ends  19 there," and then he drew a line in light blue pen on  20 your trial Exhibit 688, which was a straight line  21 across and down.  And you agreed at that time — or  22 questioned him as to whether it was approximate.  This  23 witness is not a cartographer and I object to a  24 question that he has mapped paragraph 5 on Exhibit  25 688.  He has given you an approximate line across  26 Exhibit 688 and I don't think it's fair to ask him if  27 they are exactly the same because he is not a  28 cartographer.  29 MR. O'BYRNE:  30 Q  All right.  The approximate line you drew today, then,  31 in blue on this Exhibit 688, that's — that could be  32 plus or minus, right?  33 A  Like I said, we never — we never ever explored around  34 there, we always stayed in this area here, see, right  35 here, in this area, that's where we worked all the  36 time.  37 Q  You are indicating the southern area?  38 A  Right.  3 9   MR. GRANT:  And the area not included — the area south, he was  40 pointing to the area "we never went to", I believe was  41 his words, was Nichyeskwa.  He was pointing to that  42 area on Exhibit 688.  43 MR. O'BYRNE:  44 Q  When you swore the interrogatories in answer to  45 question 59(c) in February of 1987, was that map shown  46 to you, Exhibit 688?  47 A  I don't think so, no. 27  A. Ridsdale (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. O'Byrne  1 Q  Is today the first time you've seen that map marked  2 Exhibit 688?  3 A  If I did I might have had a — take a quick glance at  4 it, if I did. But I've seen so many maps now.  5 Q  I know the feeling well, Mr. Ridsdale.  6 A  Coloured ones, white ones.  7 MR. O'BYRNE:  I think, Mr. Grant, in view of the fact that Mr.  8 Ridsdale has put this blue line on it, we should  9 perhaps mark it as Exhibit 2 in this cross-examination  10 even though it has been marked as a trial exhibit.  11 MR. GRANT:  I have no objection to that. With — but of course  12 the — the blue line has got all of the perils of him  13 drawing in a very short time while under cross-  14 examination, a line, and us making assumptions as to  15 where a road ends.  16 MR. O'BYRNE: With those reservations, perhaps we can have that  17 as Exhibit 2.  18  19 (EXHIBIT 1  - Trial Exhibit 688 as Amended)  20  21 MR. GRANT: While we are waiting, for the record, I just want to  22 refer, because — that this Exhibit 688 is referred to  23 and discussed in the trial evidence at page 7807 of  24 the trial transcript on the following, and  25 explanations are given to the questions my friend is  26 asking, but of course not from this witness.  27 MR. O'BYRNE:  28 Q  Now, when you were learning about the Madii Lii  29 territory from Ben McKenzie, did he ever tell you that  30 the territory above the blue line you've drawn in  31 around Nichyeskwa Creek was part of the Madii Lii  32 territory?  33 A  No.  No, no, he never ever told me about it. When we  34 went there, trapped there, we crossed over the other  35 side of Madii Lii and we headed straight northeast.  36 We didn't go north.  37 Q  Did you ever discuss with Neil John Sterritt whether  38 or not Nichyeskwa Creek was part of the Madii Lii  39 territory?  40 A  No.  Because I don't understand that name.  It must be  41 a Carrier name or something because it's not Gitksan  42 word.  43 Q  But you never discussed with Mr. Neil John Sterritt  44 whether or not that creek was part of your territory?  45 A  No.  46 Q  Now, are you aware if there is registered traplines on  47 the Madii Lii territory? 28  A. Ridsdale (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. O'Byrne  1 A Around Madii Lii?  2 Q Well, within the boundaries of the Madii Lii  3 territory, are there registered traplines?  4 A Madii Lii territory is strictly in our own boundary.  5 Q But are there any registered traplines in that area,  6 the Madii Lii territory?  7 A On the outside of Madii Lii, yes.  8 Q Do you know if Kenneth John McKenzie has a registered  9 trapline there?  10 A No, no.  11 Q He does not?  12 A No. He traps in there, in the Madii Lii area.  13 Q He does trap there?  14 A He does trap there.  15 Q All right. But does he have a registered trapline?  16 A He is using the same line we are talking about.  17 Q All right. You just don't know if it's a registered  18 trapline or not; is that fair.  19 MR. GRANT:  I think that the witness may not understand what you  20 are — your series of questions from his answer.  I'm  21 just suggesting that you may want to rephrase them.  22 MR. O'BYRNE:  23 Q Kenneth John McKenzie traps  in the Madii Lii  24 territory?  25 A Yes.  26 Q How does he get the right to do it?  27 A From his grandfather.  28 Q Who was?  29 A Ben McKenzie.  And he has to have permission.  30 Q From Ben McKenzie?  31 A From Ben McKenzie.  32 Q Ben McKenzie is sick now.  Who gives him permission  33 now that Ben McKenzie is sick?  34 A I believe I can give permission or the head chief can  35 give permission which is next chief to Ben.  36 Q who is that, please?  37 A Which is — what's his name now? Xsim wits'iin,  38 that's Lester Moore, he is Xsim wits'iin.  39 Q Do you know if a Rennie Green Senior traps in the  40 Madii Lii territory?  41 MR. GRANT:  Rennie Green, was it?  42 MR. O'BYRNE:  43 Q Rennie Green Senior?  44 A Rennie Green Senior? What were you — what would he  45 be trapping on? He wouldn't be trapping in our — on  46 our territory, Madii Lii territory.  47 Q Well, my question was, do you know if that person 29  A. Ridsdale (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. O'Byrne  1 traps in the Madii Lii territory?  2 A  No, no, he wouldn't be trapping Madii Lii territory.  3 He could be trapping close by but it wouldn't be in  4 our territory.  5 Q  Okay.  Does Simon Muldoe trap in the Madii Lii  6 territory you described?  7 A  Yes, yes.  He is entitled to it.  8 Q  And how does he become entitled to do it?  9 A  Because he is in the same house as we are.  10 Q  And he would get permission from Ben McKenzie Senior?  11 A  Yes, yes.  12 Q  How about Delbert Turner?  13 A  Yes, he would and he could.  14 Q  And how does he get permission?  15 A  From the same, Ben McKenzie.  16 Q  All right. And does Delbert Turner trap in the Madii  17 Lii territory?  18 A  Yes, I believe he does.  19 Q  What about Simon Muldoe, does he trap in the Madii Lii  20 territory?  21 A  Yes, he traps there.  22 Q  Do you know if Kenney McKenzie traps up in the Geel  23 Creek territory up north in Madii Lii?  24 A  No.  He would have to be within our territory.  25 Q  Okay.  But do you know if Kenney McKenzie has a  26 trapline up in the Geel Creek area?  27 MR. GRANT:  Do you mean a registered trapline?  28 MR. O'BYRNE:  Any type of trapline.  29 MR. GRANT: Well I think there is a difference between whether  30 he has a registered trapline or a line of traps or  31 there is — that's an extremely different issue, you  32 may want to cover both of them, but I think you should  33 make clear what you are talking about.  34 MR. O'BYRNE:  35 Q  Does Kenney McKenzie have a registered trapline north  36 of Madii Lii in the Geel Creek territory?  37 A  Not to my knowledge. As far as I know he is always  38 trapped in the Madii Lii area.  3 9 Q  And you already told me that, to the best of your  40 knowledge, Ben McKenzie never trapped up in the Geel  41 Creek territory?  42 A  No.  43 Q  Was there an Abel Sampson that was using some of the  44 territory of your house or Ben McKenzie*s?  45 A  Not to my knowledge that Abel Sampson ever trapped in  46 our territory.  47 Q  Okay. First of all, I'm referring to Madii Lii. Did 30  A. Ridsdale (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. O'Byrne  1 Abel Sampson ever trap on the Madii Lii territory?  2 A  No.  3 Q  All right.  Ben McKenzie Senior has other territories,  4 is that correct, other than Madii Lii?  5 MR. GRANT:  You are talking about the house?  6 MR. O'BYRNE:  7 Q  The house, yes.  The house of Ben McKenzie,  8 Luutkudziiwas' house?  9 A  Yes.  He has other territories, he have another  10 territory.  11 Q  And do you know if Abel Sampson traps or he has  12 trapped on any of those?  13 A  No, no.  14 Q  You mentioned that this name of this creek,  15 Nichyeskwa, that's not a Gitksan name?  16 A  No.  17 Q  And I think you suggested it might be a Carrier name?  18 A  Right.  19 Q  Is that because the Carriers who are the people to the  20 east —  21 A  To the east, yes.  22 Q  — used to come in that area?  23 A  Yeah, they could have come from the northeast of it  24 into that area.  25 Q  In the Nichyeskwa area?  26 A  Yeah.  27 Q  Do you know when Ben McKenzie*s son started trapping  28 in the Madii Lii territory?  29 MR. GRANT:  Ben McKenzie's son?  30 MR. O'BYRNE:  31 Q  Or grandson, I'm sorry?  32 A  Grandson?  33 Q  That's Kenneth John McKenzie, that's his grandson,  34 isn't it?  35 A  He has been trapping there the last five years now.  36 Q  I'm referring you back now to what has been marked as  37 Exhibit 1 on this cross-examination, and ask you to  38 clarify something.  This question 87, were you asked  39 by your counsel, Mr. Grant, in regards to this map, to  40 produce this map that's referred to in regard to  41 question —  42 MR. GRANT:  Okay, don't answer the question.  43 A  No, I don't ~  44 MR. GRANT:  Don't answer the question.  45 A  I don't know.  46 MR. GRANT:  No, no, Mr. Ridsdale, I object to the question.  47 MR. O'BYRNE:  And what's the reason for your objection? 31  A. Ridsdale (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. O'Byrne  1 MR. GRANT: Discussions between myself and my client are  2 privileged.  3 MR. O'BYRNE: Well, Mr. Grant, you were sent a letter by Mr.  4 Plant whereby it was requested that you supply the map  5 that's referred to in question 87, the answer to  6 question 87, and —  7 MR. GRANT: What's the date of that letter from Mr. Plant?  8 MR. O'BYRNE: Well, your letter in response is dated August 26th  9 and you say it was Mr. Plant's letter of August 24th,  10 1988.  11 MR. GRANT: Can I just look at my letter, please?  12 MR. O'BYRNE:  I believe that's a copy of the letter and I have a  13 copy of Mr. Plant's letter.  14 MR. GRANT: Yes.  My position with respect to this is that my  15 letter and the fax sent out on my August 26th letter  16 to you is a statement that you may or may not put to  17 the witness.  But other than that I don't want — I do  18 not want this witness to be examined generally as to  19 the discussions, and this witness may not know the  20 scope of where you can inquire as to the discussions  21 between himself and myself. And I think it's more  22 appropriate that if you wish to respond to — or you  23 wish to deal with this matter, it be dealt with  24 between counsel as it was between myself and Mr.  25 Plant, and not through the witness.  And, of course,  26 the fact set out in the second paragraph of my letter  27 is — can be deemed to be an admission by the witness,  28 because it's correspondence from counsel.  2 9 MR. O'BYRNE: Well, I can deal with it one of two ways, Mr.  30 Grant:  I can just actually mark it as Exhibit 3 on  31 the examination and then I won't bother asking you  32 questions, or I can just put the fact to him.  That's  33 all I want.  34 MR. GRANT:  Okay.  Well ~  3 5 MR. O'BYRNE: We are prepared to have the letter marked.  36 MR. GRANT: Well, I'm prepared to admit the contents of that  37 paragraph of my letter that I investigated with  38 respect to this map and I have inquired of both Mr.  3 9 Arthur Ridsdale and Mary Moore who was present at the  40 feast, and Mary Moore was present at the feast with  41 respect to whether any map was present there.  I  42 wasn't — I've been instructed that no map exists to  43 the knowledge of any of the persons who I have  44 inquired to with respect to this matter, and that  45 there was not a map presented at the feast.  46 MR. O'BYRNE:  All right.  Perhaps we should mark it just for  47 reference. 32  A. Ridsdale (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. O'Byrne  Cross-exam by Mr. Macaulay  1 MR. GRANT:  I have basically set out the facts to which — I've  2 set out the germane facts on the record, I don't think  3 it's necessary to mark it.  4 Just go off the record, I just want to explain to  5 the witness —  6 MR. O'BYRNE: As long as I can hear what you are saying.  7 (OFF THE RECORD DISCUSSION)  8 MR. O'BYRNE:  9 Q  Now, Mr. Ridsdale, just a couple of other questions  10 about the Madii Lii territory.  11 When you were marking what has been marked as  12 Exhibit 2 which is trial Exhibit 688, a copy, you said  13 that — well, you said to yourself when you were doing  14 this, "Is this the end of the road?"  I take it there  15 is a road into the Madii Lii territory, is there?  16 A  Yes, there is a forestry road in there.  17 Q  And there has been a substantial amount of logging in  18 the Madii Lii territory?  19 A  Yes, quite a bit of logging. As a matter of fact,  20 there is hardly any place to trap there now because  21 it's so badly logged off.  22 Q  And is there more than one forestry road into that  23 Madii Lii territory?  24 A  Yes.  They have branches in there and there is almost  25 out — the road carries out of our territory and  26 continues on right on towards Babine. Goes right  27 through our territory and right out and gone.  28 MR. O'BYRNE:  I have no further questions of Mr. Ridsdale.  29  3 0    CROSS^XAMINATION_BY_MRi_MACAULAY:  31 Q  Mr. Ridsdale, you know Delbert Turner?  32 A  Yes, I do.  33 Q  And what house does he belong to?  34 A  Lax Seel house.  35 Q  Well, that's his clan?  36 A  Clan, frog clan.  37 Q  Frog clan?  38 A  Yeah.  3 9 Q  But does — is he a member of your house?  40 A  Yes, he is.  41 Q  Right.  Ben McKenzie's house?  42 A  Yes, he is.  43 Q  All right. Did you know whether or not Delbert Turner  44 applied for funds to develop a trapping enterprise in  45 the — on your trapline?  46 MR. GRANT:  When?  47 MR. MACAULAY: 33  A.   Ridsdale   (for  Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr.   Macaulay  Re-Exam by Mr.   Grant  1 Q 1984?  2 A Not to my knowledge.  3 Q And have you ever — how old is Delbert Turner?  4 A Oh, I don't know.  I never knew his age.  5 Q Well, is he over 40 or under 40?  6 A He would be over 40.  7 Q Over 40?  8 A Yes.  9 Q Have you ever heard of the Trapper Education  10 Programme?  11 A I've heard of it.  12 Q Do you know whether or not Delbert Turner took that  13 programme?  14 A No, no, I don't know he — if he ever did.  No, I  15 never heard.  16 Q Do you know anything about the programme? You've  17 heard of the programme, do you know anything about it?  18 A No, I never looked into it.  19 Q Have you heard of any training course for trappers  20 that's —  21 A I've heard about that, yes, I've heard about a  22 training course.  23 Q Yes.  That's what you understand — understand this  24 Trapper Education Programme to be, it's a kind of  25 training course for people who want to learn trapping?  26 A Yes.  27 Q Is that right?  28 A Yes.  29 Q All right. And you don't need to take a course like  30 that?  31 A No, no.  There is no such thing in the days I trapped.  32 Q You learned that by going out with —  33 A With my brother.  34 Q With your brother?  3 5 A Yeah.  36   MR. MACAULAY:  Those are my questions, thank you.  37  3 8    RE^EXAMINATIQN_BY_MRA_SRANT:  3 9 Q You were asked by Mr. O'Byrne about working at logging  40 and coal mining. At the time that you worked in the  41 logging industry, did you also trap?  42 A No, I did not.  43 Q Okay.  Before you gave evidence today you had an  44 opportunity to review paragraph 5 of the affidavit; is  45 that right?  46 A Yes.  47 Q Was there anything wrong with that description of your 34  A.   Ridsdale   (for Plaintiffs)  Re-exam by Mr.  Grant  1 territory?  2 A None whatsoever.  3 Q Referring to Exhibit 594, for the record. What house  4 is Gordon Sebastian in?  5 A Lax Seel house.  6 Q That's the clan of Lax Seel?  7 A The clan of Lax Seel.  8 Q And who is the head chief of his house?  9 A Luutkudziiwus.  10 Q You describe that your mother was Sarah Williams?  11 A Yes.  12 Q What house was your mother in?  13 A Lax Seel house.  14 Q Who was the head chief of her house?  15 A Luutkudziiwus.  16 Q You were asked about how well Ben was, Ben McKenzie  17 was. Do you take Ben — or have you on occasion taken  18 Ben up to New Hazelton by truck in the — in recent  19 times?  20 A Yes.  21 Q And how is he — how long can you take him out for?  22 A Oh, about half an hour at the very longest.  23 Q And then what happens?  24 A He gets very, very tired and I have to take him home.  25 Q Okay.  26 A He can't ride anywhere very long.  27 Q Could Ben have been questioned like you were  28 questioned today, in other words, without being —  29 would he have been able to stand — to sit here and be  30 questioned?  31 A No, I don't think he would be able to sit here because  32 he cannot sit up very long.  33 Q Okay. You were asked when you were last out on the  34 territory of Madii Lii and you said last year. What  35 season of the year was it when you were out there?  36 A I was there in the — I was there in the fall.  37 Q That would have been about a year ago then?  38 A Yes.  3 9 Q Just over a year. And where did you travel on the  40 territory last fall, where did you go?  41 A Up Madii Lii, on the north side of Madii Lii.  42 Q You were asked about your discussions with Neil  43 Sterritt when he was asking you about the Madii Lii  44 territory.  45 MR. O'BYRNE:  Is that junior or senior?  46 MR. GRANT:  47 Q I'm sorry,   Neil  John Sterritt.    When you were asked 35  A. Ridsdale (for Plaintiffs)  Re-exam by Mr. Grant  1 about that — you had discussions with him before this  2 affidavit was prepared, and you were asked — and you  3 explained that he — my note is that he came to you to  4 verify names of creeks —  5 A  Yes.  6 Q  — and mountains. When he came to you to verify the  7 names of creeks, did he also come to you to determine  8 where those creeks with those names were located?  9 A  Yes.  10 Q  And with respect to Exhibit 1, paragraph 87(a), you  11 were asked about this sentence:  12  13 "When Mary Moore's mother died there was a making  14 of a map which identified the territory."  15  16 And you said in answer, you don't know about the  17 making of the map, "I wasn't present." When you say  18 you weren't present, are you referring — were you  19 present at the feast for Mary Moore's mother?  20 A  No, I was not there.  21 Q  And that's what you were referring to as not being  22 present at that feast?  23 A  Yes.  24 Q  Do you know — when you discussed creeks with Mr.  25 Sterritt, did you discuss a creek named Hahla Gyoot?  26 A  Yes.  27 MR. O'BYRNE:  I object.  I never asked that.  28 MR. GRANT:  No.  You asked what he discussed with him.  29 MR. O'BYRNE:  I never asked him any of the names, that does not  30 arise out of my cross-examination.  31 MR. GRANT:  32 Q  Objection is noted.  33 Did you discuss Xsa Hahla — Xsa Hahla Goot'm  34 Ando'o?  35 A  Xsa Hahla Gyoot and Xsi an Legix Gu'uus.  36 Q  Okay.  Do you know why Ben McKenzie authorized Kenney  37 John McKenzie to use the Madii Lii territory?  38 A  Yes. Kenney John McKenzie is from his mother's side  3 9 in the wolf tribe but his grandfather only authorized  40 him to use the trap on his line as long as he was  41 around.  42 Q  As long as who was around?  43 A  Ben McKenzie.  44 Q  Senior?  45 A  Senior, yes.  46 MR. GRANT: Thank you, Mr. Ridsdale, those are all my questions.  47 36  A.  Ridsdale   (for Plaintiffs)  Re-exam by Mr.  Grant  £*.  1 (PROCEEDINGS CONCLUDED)  2  3 I hereby certify the foregoing to be  4 a true and accurate transcript of the  5 proceedings herein transcribed to the  6 best of my skill and ability.  7  8  9  10    11 Toni Kerekes,  12 O.R., R.P.R.  13 United Reporting Service Ltd.  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47


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