Delgamuukw Trial Transcripts

Commission Evidence of Art Matthews British Columbia. Supreme Court Aug 30, 1988

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 <3fn tip Supreme Court of 2§rtttsf{ Columbia  No SMITHERS,  -B.C.  No        0843  SMITHERS   REGISTRY AUGUST   30,   1988  BETWEEN:  DELGAMUUKW, also known as ALBERT TAIT,  suing on his own behalf and on behalf  of all other members of the HOUSE OF  DELGAMUUKW, and others,  Plaintiffs;  AND  HER MAJESTY THE QUEEN IN RIGHT OF THE  PROVINCE OF BRITISH COLUMBIA and  THE ATTORNEY GENERAL OF CANADA,  Defendants,  C«*ffi¥§®5®N  EVIDENCE  OF  ART  MATTHEWS 1  A.   Matthews   (for  Plaintiffs)  Cross  Exam by  Mr.   Goldie  1 August 30, 1988  2 ART MATTHEWS. SWORN:  3  4    EXAMINED BY MR. GOLDIE:  5  6 Q This is the  cross-examination of  Mr.   Arthur  Matthews  7 senior  on an affidavit  filed in this action  dated  8 March  the 3rd.     Mr.   Matthews,   do you  read English."  9 A I  can only   read my   own name.  0 Q Do you speak any   English?  1 A Just a little bit.  2 Q You  understood the  oath  that was  given you a  tew  3 minutes ago,   though,   did you?  4 A Yes.  5 Q Now,   could you have your  affidavit in front  of  you  6 please.     If you look at  the  last  page,   Mr.   Matthews,  7 that is your  signature,   is it?  .8 A Yes.  9 Q And where  did you  sign  that?  0 A In my   son's house  in  Kitwangak.  ,1 Q You weren't in Hazelton?  2 A I  signed another  one in Hazelton.  3 Q Well,   which  is  the  one  that you signed in Hazelton?  4 A They  both —  they   all  look the  same.     I  don't   know  5 which  one.  6 Q All  right.     Was  the —  was that paper  translatea for  :7 you in the Gitksan language before you signea  it?  8 A Yes.  9 Q And  it was Ms.   Sampson who translated it for you?  ■ 0 A Yes.  1 Q And then you  signed it?  2 A Yes,   after  it was  read to me  I  signed my  name.  3 Q And then you swore that  it was true,   is  that  right."  ;4 A Yes.  5 Q And you  understood it when Ms.   Sampson  read  it  to you."  16 A Yes.  7 Q What was  the answer?  8 A Yes.  9 Q Do you know who prepared the affidavit?  10 A My son, Neil and Pete.  tl Q Your son is Art Matthews junior, ano Neil is Mr. r«eil  \2 Sterritt junior?  ,3 A Uh-huh.  :4 Q And who is Pete  please?    Mr.   Grant?  :5 A Yes.  :6 Q Did you tell  them where  the territory  of  Tenimgyet  is?  ■1 A Yes,   that's why   I  signed this  paper. 2  A. Matthews (for Plaintiffs)  Cross Exam by Mr. Goldie  1  Q  2  MR.   GRANT  3  4  MR.   GOLDI  5  6  Q  7  A  8  9  .0  Q  .1  .2  .3  A  .4  .5  Q  .6  .7  A  .8  Q  .9  10  A  11  Q  12  A  13  Q  14  A  15  Q  16  A  17  18  19  Q  10  A  il  Q  12  A  13  Q  14  15  16  A  17  Q  18  19  A  10  11  Q  12  A  13  Q  14  A  15  Q  16  17  When did you tell them where the territory is?  : Well, there is three people.  He may have tolo at  different times.  S: Let the answer — let him answer whatever way he  wants to.  When did you tell them where the territory was?  When I was young, this is where I grew up ano I know  the territory.  That's why I aon't know — that's wny  I'm not educated.  This is where I was born.  We'll come to that in a few minutes, but I want to  know now when did you tell your son, Mr. Sterritt  junior and Mr. Grant the — where the territory was?  When this land claim started I told my son when he was  young.  The — so it was in connection with the land claims  that you signed that affidavit, is that right?  Yes.  Now, Mr. Matthews, you are a member of the House of  Luu Hoon?  Yes.  That's a Kitwancool House?  Yes.  Although you live at Kitwangak?  That's where my father live.  Did you ever live in Kitwancool?  Just for a short time — just for a short time arter i  grew up I went out with my grandfather on a hunting  trip for trapping.  But most of your life you have lived in Kitwangak."  As long as I have lived.  And how old are you?  75.  Luu Hoon or however it is pronounced is not a  plaintiff, is that right, it's not a part of this  lawsuit?  No.  Is there a person who holds that name, and if so, what  is his name or her name?  Geoffrey Morgan son, Guy Morgan.  He was the one that  took the name when my grandfather died.  Who was your grandfather please?  His name was Luu Hoon.  And his English name?  Ambrose Sterritt.  And you say you were a hereditary chief in your own  House.  That's correct, is it? I understand Mr.  Matthews is a hereditary chief in his own House? 3  A.   Matthews   (for  Plaintiffs)  Cross  Exam  by  Mr.   Goldie  1 A      Yes.  2 Q      And that's  the frog  clan?  3 A      Derrick,   Ambrose.  4 Q      What does  Simoogit mean?  5 A       Is  that  Simoigyet?  6 MR.   GRANT:     You are asking  the witness?  7 MR.   GOLDIE:   Yes.  8 A      If  there is a lot  of  people,   Simgigyet.     You call   them  9 Simoogit, or if you mean the head chief Simoigyet. he  .0 wants to know which one you mean. There are different  .1 ways.  .2 Q       I want  to  know what  that word means,   Simoogit.  .3 A       If  there is  a lot  of   chiefs  sitting,   that's  Simgigyet,  .4 and that means  all  of   them,   all  the  chiefs.  .5 Q       Does  it mean —  does  it  also mean a person with  .6 authority?  .7 A      Yes,   sir,   it means  that he has authority.  .8 Q       Are  there  people without authority?  .9 A      They  could chose maybe  one  or  two other  common people  10 that are wives,   but  even —  they may  not be people  :1 with  authority.  12 Q       What are  people without authority  called?  13 A      They might  be prince —  considered as  a prince,  :4 although  they might  not have the same authority  as  a  15 chief   or  a Simoigyet.  16 Q       Is  there a Gitksan for  people without authority?  17 A      Guubawilxwit.  18 MR.   GRANT:     I  just wanted to be  sure  that —  and I  think Mrs.  19 Sampson  got  it,   that  the witness  said both Simoigyet  ■ 0 and Simgigyet,   and you  got  both  of  them.  11 MR.   GOLDIE:  12 Q       Are you an elder?  13 A      Yes.  14 Q       Not all  chiefs are  elders,   are they?  15 A      They  don't need to be  all  elders.     Some can be  i6 Guubawilxwit.     Some are in  charge  of   looking  after   the  17 territory,   some fishing  sites,   some  can be  sons  of   the  18 chiefs,   as  long as —  19 THE  INTERPRETER:     I forgot what he  said.  10 THE WITNESS:     They   can be  like  Tenimgyet,   they   don't have  to  be  11 elders,   as long as  they  have a chief's name,   and  12 Tenimgyet  is  in  charge  of  the  territory.  13 Q       Who is  in  charge  of   the territory?  14 A      Tenimgyet.  15 Q       That is your  son?  16 A      He was  the one,   yes.     He was  the one  that was  chosen  17 by   the House members. 4  A. Matthews (for Plaintiffs)  Cross Exam by Mr. Goldie  1 Q  Is your son an elder?  2 A  No, he is not an elder now, but there are two to three  3 elders that are his grandfather's in the House.  4 Q  The elders are people of wisdom?  5 A  Yes, they are elders and are wise.  They know all the  6 adaawks.  That's why they are considerea elders.  7 Q  And are the elders consulted before a decision is  8 taken in the village?  9 A  Before they do what?  0 Q  Do anything of importance.  1 A  The law of the House is that it would be the chief and  2 the people that are closely related around him.  he  3 does not make the decisions all by himself.  He also  4 has to consult with these Nii Dil, what they call his  5 Nii Dil.  6 Q  And that means?  7 A  People that are closely related to the House.  It  8 could be the wilxsuwitsw.  9 Q  What about a decision by the villages?  :0 A  They would — the village would consult the chief,  1 like if they were to hold a feast or if a chief wantea  ,2 to hold a feast.  3 Q      Mr.   Matthews,   you were a  Councillor,   a Band Councillor  :4 at  one  time,   weren't you?  :5 A      Yes,   when  I  was  still young and strong,   but   I  can't  16 remember   the year.  :7 Q       Do you  remember  the band  suing  the federal  government  ;8 for  a land  claim?  9 A      As far   back as  I  could remember,   it was  about  lS2b,  0 and  I   knew  that  the  Indian people were making  all  1 kinds  of   claims  even before then.  2 Q      What about  a few years ago,   1983?  3 A      I  remember  we went  to Ottawa to see  Trudeau,   but  we  4 didn't  get  anything  or  get anywhere.  5 Q      Well,   in 1983  you were  charged with  an offence  unoer  6 '- the  Fisheries Act.     Do you  remember  that?  7 A      Yes.  8 Q      He remembers  that?  9 A      Yes.  ■0 Q       Does he  remember  the villages  or   the band,   Kitwangak  :1 suing  the federal  government some  time  before,   not  :2 long before 1983?  t3 MR.   GRANT:     Sorry,   not long  before  that year?  .4 MR.   GOLDIE:     Yes.  <5 THE INTERPRETER: Not long before he got charged?  16    MR. GOLDIE:   Yes.  1 A       I  remember  they  tried a lot  of  things,   and  I  remember 5  A. Matthews (for Plaintiffs)  Cross Exam by Mr. Goldie  1 that they were trying to sue the government about the  2 land, and they tried a lot of things, other things.  3 Q  That was the federal government?  4 A  Uh-huh.  5 Q  Federal government?  6 A  Yes.  7 Q       I am  going to  show you a map and ask you if you have  8 ever  seen a map with  that outline  on it  before.  9 MR.   GRANT:     This  is  the  dark black as  opposed to the yellow  on  .0 the map?  1 MR.   GOLDIE:     That's  correct.  ,2 A      No,   my   grandfather  never  had a map.     He never  showed  .3 me a map.     All  he told me was where  the  boundaries  4 were,   and that's  all   I  know.  5 Q       That's  the  boundaries  of  the territory   of   the House  or  6 Tenimgyet?  .7 A      Yes.  8 Q  Now, were you an elder consulted about the — betore  ,9 the band sued the federal government for land?  0 MR. GRANT: Before you proceed, I think it should be clear wnat  :1 you are talking about is a lawsuit that's different  2 than the lawsuit that we are involved in here.  3 MR. GOLDIE: Because it's against the federal government.  4 MR. GRANT:  It's a lawsuit against the federal government, which  5 is different.  That distinction may not be obvious to  6 the witness.  ,7 MR.   GOLDIE:     I  thought he had  that.  8 MR.   GRANT:     So if you —  the lawsuit Mr.   Goldie  is asking Mr.  9 Matthews about is  a lawsuit against the feaeral  0 government,   which  is  different  than this  lawsuit  that  1 we  are  involved in here.  2 THE  INTERPRETER:     The federal   government.     I  think  the way   he  3 make  the  distinction is  if  I  say  D.I.A.,   then he woula  4 know  it's  government  I am  talking  about.  5 MR.   GOLDIE:     All   right.  6 MR.   GRANT:     That's fine.     You can explain that.  7 THE  INTERPRETER:     He  understands.  8 MR.   GOLDIE:  9 Q  He understands the difference?  0 A  Uh-huh.  1 Q  But was he consulted as an elder before that — the  2 Band Council started that action?  3 A  They did — they always hold meetings before, ano tney  4 let all the elders know what they are doing.  5 Q  And was he — does he remember the particular matter  6 that I am asking him about, that is to say an action  7 against the federal government by the band? Does he 6  A. Matthews (for Plaintiffs)  Cross Exam by Mr. Goldie  1 remember being consulted about that?  2 A  Yes, they did, and they always tolo what the  3 government answer was.  4 Q  Did he understand that the band was claiming land  5 which included land within the House of Tenimgyet?  6 A  Yes, I knew.  7 Q  Was he present yesterday when Mr. Neil Sterritt senior  8 described land around Hazelton or Gitanmaax for the  9 people of Hazelton?  0 A  Yes, I was sitting here.  1 Q  And did he understand that that was common land for  2 the use of everybody?  3 A  Yes, I understood, and what he said was right, and ail  4 the villages have some sort of an agreement that is  5 quite common.  It's the same.  6 Q  I am going to show you that map again, that map being  7 the one I referred to a few minutes ago, and ask you  8 if that black line was to be the common land for the  9 village of Kitwangak.  0 MR. GRANT: Well, I think in order for him to answer that, he  1 has to be — some of this has to be described, that is  2 some outer points, so he knows where this line — what  3 it encompasses.  You see that it refers to on the west  4 Sand Lake, on the north Mount Hoadley, Anoamaul  5 Reserve, Andamaul IR number 1, Mount Sir Robert and  6 Wisbis Mountain.  7 MR. GOLDIE:  And includes the Seven Sisters.  8 MR. GRANT:  And includes the Seven Sisters.  It includes Doreen.  9 It includes Ritchie.  It includes Woodcock.  Can you  0 translate to him these points, so he can understand  1 what the map is referring to when he answers.  2 THE INTERPRETER: Is this Kitwangak reserve?  3 MR. GRANT: No, this is not Kitwangak reserve.  This goes as rar  4 west as Sand Lake and goes up north to Mount Hoadley.  5 That's what he is asking, whose territory.  6 THE INTERPRETER: Yes.  7 MR. GRANT: Well, what he is being asked is if this outer line  8 represents common ground of Kitwangak.  I just want  9 him to be sure that he understood what this outer line  0 includes.  It includes Mount Hoadley, it includes banc  1 Lake, it includes Seven Sisters, it includes Andimaul,  2 it includes a very large area.  Mount Sir Robert,  3 Seven Sisters.  4 MR. GOLDIE: Wilson Creek.  5 MR. GRANT: Wilson Creek.  Wesach Mountain and Hampton Creek.  :6 THE INTERPERTER: He wants to know who made this.  1 MR. GOLDIE:  The lawyer for the village of Kitwangak drew that 7  A.   Matthews   (for  Plaintiffs)  Cross  Exam  by  Mr.   Goldie  1 line  on that map.  2 THE  INTERPRETER:   Just  recently?  3 MR.   GOLDIE:     I  am  sorry,   I   can't —   I  don't  know.  4 MR.   GRANT:    But  that map was  at  the  time  of  that  claim,   so it  5 would have been at least as  early  as  1983  when you  6 were  referring  to,   and  the lawyer  that you are  7 referring to was  Mr.   Bruce  Clark,   I  think.  8 MR.   GOLDIE:     That  could well   be.  9 MR.   GRANT:     He's  the  lawyer   of   record,   if you're suggesting  that  0 on that matter.  1 MR.   GOLDIE:  .2 Q      The question  that  I  have  for Mr.   Matthews now   is:     Dia  .3 he  know at  the  time  that  the territory   of  Tenimgyet  .4 was  claimed to be  common territory  of   the village."  5 MR.   GRANT:     Just  a moment.     Was — you have asked him  if   this  is  6 common territory   of   the village?  .7 MR.   GOLDIE:     Yes.  .8 MR.   GRANT:     I  don't —  I don't  know what basis you have  for  .9 saying that  the  territory  of Tenimgyet was  claimed  as  :0 common territory   of   the village,   because  there  is  ;1 nothing to indicate here that  that map reflects  couimon  :2 territory   of   the village.  13 MR.   GOLDIE:     Well,   my  recollection is  that he acknowledged  that  4 the  claim was  for   common  territory  of  the village.  ,5 Now,   the question — well,   I am going  to reframe my  6 question.  1 Q  Firstly, is the — is the territory which Mr. Grant  8 and Ms. Howard have been describing by reference to  9 Andimaul, Seven Sisters and so on, is that — was that  0 territory to be the common territory of the village?  1 THE INTERPRETER: Just Andimaul and Seven Sisters or the whole  2 thing?  3 MR.   GOLDIE:     All   of   that.  4 MR.   GRANT:     Sand Lake  and Wilson  Creek and Little Oliver.  • 5 THE WITNESS:       If  all  the —   if  all  the  chiefs agree,   but  if  6 this map was  just made  recently,   it wouldn't be.  ■7 MR.   GOLDIE:  ■ 8 Q       It wouldn't be what?  9 A       Common  ground.     There has  to be an agreement  amongst  rO the  chiefs.  1 Q      Well,   was  there an agreement before the action against  2 the federal   government was   commenced?  3 A      If  they  all  sign  a  paper  before this map was maae   up.  4 Q       Did they  to his  knowledge?    Was there a paper   signed."  5 A      Well,   I am asking you.  6 Q      Well,   I  am asking  the questions.     If  he  doesn't   know,  7 let him say  so. A.   Matthews   (for  Plaintiffs)  Cross  Exam  by  Mr.   Goldie  1 MR.   GRANT:     Obviously  if  he is asking you,   then he doesn't  know.  2 MR.   GOLDIE:     No,   I  am asking  the witness,   was  there such  a  3 paper,   and  if  he  doesn't  know,   let him  say  so.  4 A      Well,   if   this was  just made  recently,   if  people  5 signed,   I probably  would know.  6 Q      But he  doesn't  know?  7 A      No.  8 MR. GOLDIE:   I would like that marked for identification  9 please.  .0  .1 (EXHIBIT  NO.   1   FOR   IDENTIFICATION  -   MAP   bBU"bi  .2 TO  MR.   MATTHEWS)  .3  .4 Q  Mr. Matthews, you are retired now, I understand?  .5 A  Yes.  .6 Q  Before you retired what did you do?  .7 A  I did a lot of different things.  I used to rish oown  .8 at the cannery.  .9 Q  And —  :0 A      I worked at the sawmill   in  Kitwangak.     That's  where  1  11 got  pensioned off.     They  laid me  off when  I was  b0.  12 Q      How many  years  did you work at the sawmill  at  13 Kitwangak?  14 A      About  four  or  five years and  I  got laid off  and  got  15 pensioned off.  16 Q      And that's  at the  sawmill?  17 (OFF  THE RECORD)  18 MR.   GOLDIE:     I  have no objection to  that,   but  I want  it  clear  19 that  if  Mr.   Matthews wishes  to add something  in  '0 English,   he's free  to do  so.  H Q      And you fished in the  Skeena for food,   did you?  12 A      That's  all   I  ever  do now.  i3 Q      And did you  do any hunting?  14 A      No,   I  can't  climb.  15 Q      Did you  know Wallace Morgan?  16 A      Yes,   that's my  wife's  uncle.  17 Q      He was  Axtii Hiikw?  18 A      Yes.  19 Q      Who holds  the name Ax.tii Hiikw now?  10 A      Henry  Tait.  11 Q      And at  the  time this  lawsuit was begun  in October   of  12 1984  Geoffrey  Morgan was Ajctii Hiikw?  13 A      Yes.     Yes.     After  Wallace  died Geoffrey  took  the name  >4 Axtii  Hiikw.  15 Q      Right.     So Geoffrey  was  the head chief  of  the House  or  \6 Axtii  Hiikw,   is  that  correct?  17 A      Yes. A. Matthews (for Plaintiffs)  Cross Exam by Mr. Goldie  1 Q  And the house of A^ctii Hiikw included Tenimgyet?  2 A  Yes, Tenimgyet was a name that was used way before  3 Ajctii Hiikw gave us — Ax,tii Hiikw in as a brother  4 into the House.  5 Q  But Geoffrey Morgan was the head chief, was he not?  6 MR. GRANT:  In 1984?  7 MR. GOLDIE:  In 1984.  8 A  Yes, when Geoffrey was still alive.  9 Q  Mr. Matthews, have you ever been at a feast when  .0 Geoffrey Morgan was alive given by the House of Axtii  .1 Hiikw?  .2        A  Yes, I was always there to help my wife — to help my  .3 wife out when his uncle gave a feast — when her uncle  .4 gave a feast.  .5 Q       Where  did Tenimgyet  sit at  that feast?  .6 MR.   GRANT:     Just  a moment.     It's  a feast  of  Ajctii Hiikw?  .7 MR.   GOLDIE:  .8 Q      Yes.     Well,   Tenimgyet,   Mr.   Matthews,   Tenimgyet  is  a  .9 name in the House  of  Axtii Hiikw?  10 MR.   GRANT:   The  feast  that A2ctii  Hiikw  holds,   they  wouldn't  be  11 sitting —  12 MR. GOLDIE:  Well, I'll — let the witness explain that to me  13 then.  14 Q  Mr. Matthews, Tenimgyet is a name in the house of  15 Axtii Hiikw, is it not?  16 A  Yes, it always belong in the house.  17 Q  At a feast given by Axtii Hiikw where did Tenimgyet  18 sit?  19 A      He  doesn't sit  down.     He helps.  '0 Q      He helps.     Okay.     At a feast  given by  another House  ■ 1 where would Tenimgyet  sit  in  relation to Axtii Hiikw?  2 A      Long  ago at the feast where Axtii Hiikw sits now,   used  ;3 to  be where Tenimgyet  sits.  ■ 4 Q       Right.     But what about now  or when Geoffrey  Morgan was  i5 alive,   where did Tenimgyet  sit in  relation to A^ctii  16 Hiikw?  17 A      He  used to sit  right beside Geoffrey  on the right  18 side.     Xbiilaxha  sits  on the left,   Ajctii Hiikw  in the  19 middle  and Tenimgyet  on the middle.  10 MR.   GOLDIE:     How is  that  spelled please?  11 THE   INTERPRETER:   X-b-i-i-1-a-X.-h-a.  12 MR.   GOLDIE:  13 Q       Is there a holder  of   that name now?  14 A      My  son  Ivan.  15 Q       Ivan?  16 A      Matthews,   yes.  17 Q       So after —  Geoffrey  Morgan died in July,   1985,   did 10  A.   Matthews   (for   Plaintiffs)  Cross  Exam  by  Mr.   Goldie  1 he?  2 A      Yes.  3 Q  And before that your son Art Matthews junior had taken  4 the name Tenimgyet, before Geoffrey Morgan is dead; is  5 that right?  6 A      Yes,   before Geoffrey  died he told Art to  use  Tenimgyet  7 and not Axtii  Hiikw.  8 Q      Well,   that wasn't  really my question.     My question was  9 that Art  Matthews  junior had become Tenimgyet  before  0 Geoffrey  Morgan died;   is  that  right?  1 A      No,   Geoffrey  had  the name.     He was  the one  that was  2 holding Tenimgyet when he had the  name Ajctii Hiikw.  3 Q      Then Geoffrey  had  both names?  4 A      When he had the name Axtii Hiikw  he was  also holding  5 the  name  Tenimgyet.     He was looking  after  it,   ano when  6 he  knew  that he wasn't feeling  so  good,   he tolo Art  7 that he wanted him to  take  the name Tenimgyet.  8 Q      And did Mr.   Matthews'   son take  that name before  9 Geoffrey  Morgan's  death?  0 A      It was  after  he  died,   but  before he  died he tolo Art  1 not  to  use Axtii  Hiikw,   but to  take the name  2 Tenimgyet.  3 Q      And today Henry  Tait is A^tii Hiikw?  4 A      Yes.     Yes.     They   both  sit  together  and Henry,   whenever  5 anybody  holds  a  feast,   they  sit together  in the feast  6 hall.  7 Q      And does Tenimgyet now sit  in  the middle and A^tii  8 Hiikw on his  right?  9 A      This  is how  I will   explain it.     When the elders  do  it  0 that way  and two  people  sit  on the  same  seat  or  side  1 by  side,   it  is   usually  because  one  of  them  knows  the  2 territory,   but  the  other  one would just hold  the  name,  3 and this  is the case with Henry  and Art.     Henry   is  4 holding  the  name,   but Art  knows  the  territory,   so Art  5 is  in charge  of   the territory.  6 Q      And Art  claims  the territory?  7 A      Yes,   because  he  knows  it.     Yes,   because he was  the  one  8 that was  taught  the territory  by  Geoffrey,   and  9 whatever  Geoffrey  didn't  know  that  I  knew  I  told Art.  0 Q      Ajctii  Hiikw has no lands  of  its own now?  1 MR.   GRANT:     Axtii Hiikw  individual  or  the House?  2 MR.   GOLDIE:  3 Q  The House of Ax.tii Hiikw has no lands, is claiming no  4 lands?  5 A  No, it all belongs to the whole House and all its  6 members, including Ajctii Hiikw and the members of the  7 House of Axtii Hiikw.  That is why it was done the way 11  A. Matthews (for Plaintiffs)  Cross Exam by Mr. Goldie  1 it was set up.  All — no one is ever put out of any  2 territory or House.  They all have the use of  3 different pieces of the territory.  One can be in  4 charge of a fishing site or a mountain, but they are  5 all included and they are members.  6 Q  When this lawsuit was started Geoffrey Morgan was  7 the — claimed lands in the name of Axtii Hiikw?  8 That's right, is it not?  9 A  Yes, when Geoffrey hao the name A^ctii" Hiikw.  0 Q  And does Art Matthews claim the same lanos for  1 Tenimgyet?  2 A  Yes, when Geoffrey had the name Ajctii Hiikw he was the  3 one that knew the territory, but when Henry took the  4 name Ax_tii Hiikw he doesn't know as much about it. bo  5 Art is the one that knows, and he is the one that is  6 claiming it in the name of Tenimgyet.  7 Q  And he has the same power with respect to those lands  8 as Geoffrey Morgan had?  9 A  Yes.  Yes.  There is four of them, and they ail have  0 the same power, and they will all get the same amount.  1 None of them is going to get more than the other.  2 It's all in the family, as the white people say it.  3 Q  There are four people now who have the same authority  4 that Geoffrey Morgan had as one; is that what you are  5 telling me?  6 A  They are all looked upon as one.  They are all  7 brothers.  8 Q      Maybe you better   give me their  names.     That's Art  9 Matthews  junior?  0 A      There  is  Ivan and  Charles  and Henry.     Art,   Ivan ana  1 Charles  are my  sons.  2 Q      Yes.     And Henry   is Henry  Tait?  3 A      Yes,   and Horace  Tait.     They  all have  their  chiefs'  4 name  in the House  of  Tenimgyet.  5 Q      You told me that you  knew Wallace Morgan.     That's  6 right,   is  it?  7 A      Yes.  8 Q  Tell me if you can recognize his signature.  9 MR. GRANT:  This is a listed document?  0 MR. GOLDIE:  Uh-huh.  1 MR.   GRANT:     Federal  or  provincial  list?  2 MR.   GOLDIE:     Provincial.  3 A      It looks  like a  child's writing.  4 Q      Maybe  it  is,   but  do you recognize  it as Mr.   Wallace  5 Morgan's  signature?  6 A      Maybe  so,   but   I  don't  know.  7 Q       You don't   know.     You  knew Mr.   Wallace Morgan was  a 12  A.   Matthews   (for  Plaintiffs)  Cross  Exam  by  Mr.   Goldie  L  2  3  4  5  r  D  7  B  9  D  I  2  3  MR.  4  MR.  5  6  THE  7  MR.  6  9  D  1  2  MR.  3  4  MR.  5  MR.  5  MR.  7  B  9  D  1  2  3  MR.  4  5  6  7  8  9  0  1  MR.  2  MR.  1  ->  4  MR.  5  6  7  MR.  Councillor  of   the  Kitwangak Band,   did you?  A      Yes.  Q      What —  did you  know a Mr.   Edward Benson?  A      Yes.  Q      And was —  did you  know  that he too was  a  Councillor  at  Kitwangak at one time?  A      Yes.  Q       David Wells,   was  he a  Councillor  at Kitwangak?  A      Yes.  Q      Do you  recognize Mr.   Benson's  signature?  A      Yes,   I   know  Eddie's.  Q       And that's his  signature?  GOLDIE:     He nodded  in agreement with  that.  GRANT:     I  just  didn't see.     Do you recognize that as  i-award  Benson's  signature?  WITNESS:       Yes.  GOLDIE:  Q      All  right.     Do you recognize Mr.   David Wells'  signature?  A      Yes,   I   know.  Q      All  right.  GRANT:     Could you tell me what number  or  numbers these  three  documents  are?  GOLDIE:     37 92.  GRANT:     Provincial  list?  GOLDIE:     Yes.  Q       Mr.   Matthews,   did you ever  sign a  declaration oi  —  that you would  uphold the laws  of  the  King and prevent  any   infractions  of  the laws and regulations of   the  Band when you became a  Councillor?  A      I don't  remember  what  I  did,   but   I probably  did.  Q       I would like —  GRANT:     Those  documents  could not be  3792,   which  is  a  document.     This is from your document list which was  delivered to me for  the first  time yesterday morning,  and of   course  I have not had an opportunity  to look at  the documents  on this  list.     3792  is a  document  dated  February 11,   1918,   a dispatch apparently from the  Secretary  of   State for   the  Colonies,   Sir Governor  General —  GOLDIE:     I  possibly  have the wrong number,   Mr.   —  GRANT:     It may  be 37 97,   which appears to be an extract from  files  of  292  pages from 1918  to 1958.  GOLDIE:     Could well  be.     We  got a little tirea waiting for  the Band Council   resolutions and documents,   so we  oio  some  searching  of  our  own.  GRANT:    Well  obviously — 13  A.   Matthews   (for  Plaintiffs)  Cross  Exam  by  Mr.   Goldie  1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  LO  LI  L2  L3  L4  L5  L6  L7  L8  L9  20  21  12  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  50  51  52  53  54  55  56  57  58  39  10  11  12  43  14  45  16  17  MR.   GOLDIE:     3797.     I want marked as  an exhibit  the declaration  of  chief  of   councillor  of  Edward H.  Benson datea April  25th,   1947.  (EXHIBIT  NO.   2   -   DECLARATION   OF  CHIEF  OF  COUNCILLOR  OF  EDWARD H.   BEiMbON -   APRIL   25  1947)  MR.   GOLDIE:     The declaration  of   Chief   of  Councillor  of   David L.  Wells  dated the 25th  of April,   1947,   Exhibit  3.  (EXHIBIT  NO.   3   -   DECLARATION   OF  CHIEF  OF  COUNCILLOR -   DAVID  L.   WELLS  -   APRIL  25,   1*4'/J  Q       Mr.   Matthews,   do you  remember  when you were a  Councillor?  A      No,   I  forgot  the year.  Q       1950's?  A      I  forgot.     In —   I forgot.     I  can't  remember.  Probably  be when Eddie —  Was  the  chief?  Uh-huh.  And Eddie was Eddie Benson?  He was the only one I could remember.  Was Eddie Benson?  Uh-huh.  Yes.     Thank you.     Now —  and you were  elected a  Councillor,   is  that  right,   by   the  band members?  Yes.  Thank you.  In your affidavit, which is — may 1 see  that please.  Exhibit 352 you say you were instructed  about the Wilson Creek territory by Charles Smitn, who  is now deceased?  Yes.  And Charles Smith died in 1949, did he?  Yes.  And it was  from  him  that you learned the territory?  Yes,   I travelled with him.  Is  it  right  that after  Charles Smith  died neither you  nor your  son nor members  of your family went  on  the  territory?  MR.   GRANT:     You are  referring  to Wilson  Creek?  MR.   GOLDIE:     Yes,   Wilson  Creek.  A      Yes,   before he  died he told us if  anything happens  to  me,   don't  go on the territory  again.  Q      And you didn't?  A      Yes,   me and my  wife,   the  children were still  small  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q 14  A. Matthews (for Plaintiffs)  Cross Exam by Mr. Goldie  1 then, but even though it is their own territory he  2 told us not to go on it until the children have grown  3 up.  4 Q      Well,   didn't he tell you not to go on it because  the  5 new chiefs would  be from  the Morgan's  side?  6 A      Yes,   because  he treasured the  children ana he told  7 them —  told  us  not  to  go on the  territory   until   the  8 children were all  grown  up.  9 Q      Well,   when Mr.   Art Matthews  junior wanted to  buila a  0 Smoke House  on the Wilson  Creek territory  ne  got  1 permission from Geoffrey  Morgan,   did he not?  2 A       Yes.  3 Q       And —  4 A      Yes,   when he  knew  that his mother had no place   to  5 process her fish,   he  remembered what his  granafather,  6 Charles,   said,   and he did that.  .7 Q       Yes.     Now,   Charles  Smith was Art Matthew juniors  8 grandfather?  9 A  Yes, he was his grandfather, and he slept with him ano  0 he told him about the territory.  1 Q  He told who about the territory?  2 A  Art.  3 Q  Junior?  4 A  Yes.  That he used to sleep with his grandfather.  5 Q  As a little boy?  6 A  Yes.  7 Q  Now, Mr. Matthews, you said you were travelling with  8 Charles Smith on the territory, is that correct?  9 A  Yes.  Sometimes there would be just the two of us.  0 Q  Yes.  Were you trapping with Charles Smith?  1 A  Yes.  2 Q  And that was because both of you, that is to say  3 Charles Smith and you, Mr. Matthews, were registered  4 holders or part of the company that was registerea for  5 a trapline in the Wilson Creek area?  6 A  No, it wasn't, because he registered it.  1 Q  Well, the trapline was — let me put it this way.  8 When you were trapping there with Charles Smith, there  9 were others who were entitled to go on that trapline,  0 weren't they?  :1 A  When the Morgans grew up they did.  ■2 Q  They what?  :3 A      When they —  after  they  grew up they  went on the  4 territory.  5 Q      Yes.     For  trapping?  16 A      Yes.  ■1 Q      Well,   besides yourself  and Charles Smith,   dio  Titus 15  A. Matthews (for Plaintiffs)  Cross Exam by Mr. Goldie  1 Derrick have the right to go on the territory?  2 A  Yes, he is the son of one of Kathleen's uncles.  3 Q  And Charlie Derrick, who at one time was Tenimgyet?  4 A  Axtii Hiikw.  5 Q  And Andrew Derrick —  6 MR. GRANT:  I think the witness was correcting it.  He was once  7 Axtii Hiikw.  8 MR. GOLDIE:  All right.  9 Q  The crowns appear to be interchangable.  Andrew  .0 Derrick, did he have the right to go on the territory  .1 to trap?  .2 A       It's  Kathleen's  brother.  .3 Q       Adolphus Morgan of   Kitwancool?  .4 A      Geoffrey's — Adolphus father  is Geoffrey.  .5 Q  James Edward Morgan?  .6 A      Yes,   there is quite  a few  of  them.  .7 Q      Richard Henry  Morgan?  .8 A       Yes.  .9 Q       Willis Steven Morgan?  10 A      Yes.     They   can go on there as Am Nii  Gwootxw,   as  their  11 father's  territories,   Am Nii Gwootxw.  12 Q       Yes.     Their  father  being Geoffrey?  13 A      Uh-huh.  14 Q       And Jack Emsley  Morgan,   is  he another  son of   Geoffrey  15 Morgan?  16 A  Jack Emsley, yes.  He says they can go on the  17 territory with permission, even if it's not their  18 territory.  19 Q  Now, when Geoffrey Morgan died, do they still have the  10 right to go on the territory to trap?  11 A  They can if they — they can if they ask for  12 permission.  They have to ask Art.  13 Q  That trapline, I am instructed — when I say "that  14 trapline", I am talking about the Wilson Creek area is  15 registered in the name of Willis S. Morgan and Richara  16 H. Morgan and company, and you are one of the  17 companies, Mr. Matthews, is that right, to your  18 knowledge?  19 A      They might have  registered it,   but  I wouldn't  know  \0 anything about it,   but  they  really  don't have any  11 authority.  12 Q       That you  say   that  they  don't have authority?  13 A      In the Wilson  Creek  area.     It  doesn't belong  to —  14 MR.   GRANT:     Just  one moment.     I  understood Mr.   Goldie asked  \5 about Willis  Morgan,   W-i-1-l-i-s.     I  thought you may  16 have said Wallace.  17 THE WITNESS:       That's hereditary  territory,   and they  really 16  A.   Matthews   (for  Plaintiffs)  Cross  Exam  by  Mr.   Goldie  1 don't have any  power  to  register  it,   as they  belong  to  2 the Gisgaast house and  the  territory  belongs  to  the  3 Lax Gibuu.  4 MR. GOLDIE:  5 Q      And  I  am  instructed that  that's trapline number  6 0609T016.     Doesn't  the —  doesn't  that trapline  go  7 over  as  far  as  Cedar  River  and beyond to the west?  8 MR.   GRANT:     The  trapline  registration?  9 MR.   GOLDIE:     Yes.     If  he  knows.  0 A      Where is  Cedar  River?  1 Q       Where  is  Cedar  River?    Well,   it's  one  of   the places  2 that Mr.   Matthews  identifies in his  affidavit.  3 MR.   GRANT:     It's  in brackets  in  the affidavit on page 5   and  a  4 Gitksan name  that is  referred  to is Tsihl  Gweiiii.  5 THE WITNESS:       No,   I  don't  know  anything  about  it.  6 MR. GOLDIE:  7 Q  Well, you and Charlie Smith travelled over as far west  8 as Cedar River, did you not?  9 A  Yes, we used to go as far as Cedar River and to the  0 lake.  1 Q       That's  Sand Lake?  2 MR.   GRANT:     Dam Git  Axsol.  3 THE WITNESS:      Yes.  4 MR. GRANT:  I just note it's eleven o'clock.  I wonder if you're  5 aoing to be much longer.  We should take a break.  6 MR. GOLDIE:  7 Q       Would you like  to take a  break now,   sir?  8 A      Yes,   I would like  coffee.  9 MR.   GOLDIE:     Let's say  five minutes.     I would like  to finish  0 before noon.  1  2 (PROCEEDINGS ADJOURNED)  3 (PROCEEDINGS RECONVENED)  4  5 Q  Mr. Matthews, I want to understana something about  6 what happened after Charles Smith's death.  You  7 remember being prosecuted for fishing without a  8 license to use a certain kind of net back in 1983?  9 A  Yes, I remember them — I remember being charged  0 because I had no licence.  1 Q  And your son gave evidence for you at the trial, dio  2 he not?  3 A  Yes.  And Geoffrey — Geoffrey was still alive when I  4 went to court.  5 Q  Geoffrey?  6 A  Yes.  7 Q  Geoffrey who? 17  A. Matthews (for Plaintiffs)  Cross Exam by Mr. Goldie  1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  0  1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  0  1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  0  1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  0  1  2  3  4  5  6  7  A  Geoffrey Morgan.  A  He was still alive when I was charged.  Q  Were you in the Courtroom when your son gave evidence."  A  Yes, I was in the Court.  Q  You remember Mr. Grant asking your son this question,  and he is talking about the Wilson Creek area:  "Q  Now, you stopped going there when your  grandfather died?  A  Yes.  Q       Can you explain why?"  Do you  remember  him being  askea that question?  A      Yes.  Q      Now,   your  son  replied with  these words,   and  I quote:  "It was  the end of   an era when my  grandfather  died and then the Morgans  took over."  Do you  remember  him saying that?  A      Yes.  Q      Then your  son  continued,   and I quote:  "My  other  set  of  grandfathers and their  tribe  and the  old man,   Charles  Smith,   said   'When  I  die,   don't come back here  any more because  it  will  be different,   unless you get  permission  from  the  new  chiefs.'"  MR.   GRANT:     From  the new chiefs that were going to be  there?  MR.   GOLDIE:     That's   right.  MR.   GRANT:     The question is  do you  remember your  son saying  this?  MR.   GOLDIE:     Yes.  A      Yes.  Q      And was your  son  right?    Was he correct when he  said  that?  A      Yes,   whatever  his  grandfather  says  is right.  Q      Well,   did his  son describe it  correctly?  A      Yes.  Q      Now,   later   on your  son was  cross-examined by  Mr.  Halfyard.     Do you remember  that?  A      Yes.     Was  that at Vancouver?  Q       I  don't  think  so.  MR.   GRANT:     I  think you said later   on your  son was  cross-examined,   and you mentioned  by Mr.   Haltyara,   but  he may  be  thinking  that you are talking about  the 18  A.   Matthews   (for  Plaintiffs)  Cross  Exam  by  Mr.   Goldie  1 cross-examination of  Art junior  in this  case.  2 MR.   GOLDIE:  3 Q  Not in this case, in the case where he was charged  4 for —  5 A      Yes.  6 Q      And do you  remember Mr.   Halfyard asking your  son this,  7 and  I quote:  8  9 "Q       There was  a  stretch  there for,   as   I  0 understand you,   over 30 years where you ano  1 your  parents  didn't  use that fishing  site?"  2  .3 Do you  remember  him being askea that question?  .4 A      Yes.  .5 Q       And your  son answered,   and  I quote:  .6  .7 "A    Yes,   that's  right.     I  explained why  we  .8 didn't   use it  because  of  the  change in  the  .9 chiefs."  10  11 Do you  remember  him  saying that?  12 A       Yes.  :3 Q      And that's why  neither you nor your  wife nor  your  :4 family   used any   of  the fishing sites or  the  territory  15 for  over  30  years?  16 A      Yes.  17 Q  I just have another question before I go on, and that  :8 was I asked you if you knew Edward Benson, ano you  19 said yes.  Who was Edward Benson?  i0 A  He was the Chief Councillor.  ■ 1 Q  The which?  2 A  He was a Chief Councillor.  3 Q  At Kitwangak?  14 A  Yes.  15 Q      What —  did he have a name,   Gitksan name?  16 A      Nuumtixs.  17 Q       Is that a  chief's name?  18 A      Yes.  19 Q       What House?  10 A      Xsgogimlaxha House.  il THE   INTERPRETER:   Spelled  N-u-u-m-t-i-x-s.  12 MR.   GOLDIE:  13 Q      That's  the  chief's name,   and would you spell   the House  14 name please.  15 A      Xsgogimlaicha.  \S THE  INTERPRETER:     X-s-g-o-g-i-m-l-a-£-h-a.  17 MR.   GRANT:     Say  that again. 19  A.   Matthews   (for  Plaintiffs)  Cross  Exam  by Mr.   Goldie  1 THE INTERPRETER:  X-s-g-o-g-i-m-l-a-x_-h-a.  2 MR. GOLDIE:  It's not — we have a name for Joe Wright, number  3 87 on your list, Exhibit 63.  Is that the same —  4 THE INTERPRETER: Yes, I got it.  It's right here.  It's  5 X-s-g-o-g-i-m-l-a-ic-h-a.  6 MR.   GOLDIE:     Thank you.  7 Q      Now,   Mr.   Matthews,   we have  been talking about  the  8 trapline  that you and  Charles  Smith  trapped.     i  want  9 you to  tell me  if you  recognize any   of   these  names.  .0 Steven Morgan.  .1 A      That's Wallace  Morgan's father.  .2 Q      Wallace  Morgan's  father,   right.     And Joshua  Kialey?  .3 A      He traps  at Wilt  gal Bak.     He's from  Kisegucla.     A  .4 trail  comes  from  Cedarvale  goes into Xsi  Gwin  .5 Biyoosxw,   and that's where Joshua  Ridley   used  to  stay.  .6 Q       Did he have  the  right  to trap in the  same  territory  .7 that you  and Charles  Smith  trapped on?  .8 A      Yes,   sometimes he  did,   but he has his own territory   to  .9 go to.  :0        Q  Well, he may have his own territory, but he had the  11 right to trap on the territory that Mr. Matthews ana  12 Mr. Smith trapped on? Did I understand that  13 correctly?  14 A  No, he has his own territory and he had his own little  15 cabin there.  :6        Q  Was his own little cabin on the Wilson Creek  17 territory?  18 A  No, Xsi Gwin Biyoosxw across the river.  :9        Q  Well, is it your evidence that Joshua Ridley had no  0 right to trap?  il MR. GRANT:  Well, are you talking under the provincial  i2 regulation or under Gitksan law?  i3 MR. GOLDIE:  I am talking whatever the way he wants to answer  i4 the question.  15 MR. GRANT:  Well, it may be that you are — it's not a fair  16 question as you are asking it, because it's whether or  i7 not he may have some — the provincial regulations may  18 authorize him something that Gitksan law doesn't.  i9 MR. GOLDIE: Let the witness deal with it the way he wants to.  10 MR. GRANT:  Well, his answer will make no sense.  tl MR. GOLDIE: Let him answer first, please, Mr. Grant.  12 MR. GRANT:  I object to the question as framed, unless you  i3 clarify what right under what authority —  4 MR. GOLDIE:  I am not talking — I am talking about what the  5 witness understands, does he have a right, because I  6 asked does Joshua Ridley have the right to trap on the  7 territory that he trapped on with Mr. Charlie Smith, 20  A. Matthews (for Plaintiffs)  Cross Exam by Mr. Goldie  1 and I understood him to say yes.  Now I want to  2 clarify that.  He's already given an answer on the  3 question of right to trap.  4 Q  Mr. Matthews, is it your understanding that uoshua  5 Ridley had no right to trap on the territory that you  6 and Mr. Charlie Smith trapped?  7 A  He had his own territory, but sometimes he woula live  8 at Wilson Creek because he — my grandfather  9 considered him as a brother.  0 Q  What about Mathias Morris?  1 A  Where from?  2 Q  Don't know.  3 A  I don't know.  4 Q  You have never heard the name?  5 A  I don't know.  6 Q       Arthur McDames?  7 A       I  know him.  8 Q       Yes.     Did he have  the  right  to trap on the territory  9 that you and Mr.   Smith  trapped on?  0 A      I  don't  understand your questions.     These  people are a  1 Gisgaast.     They  belong to  the Gisgaast  clan.     rxney  2 come from  Kitseguckla.  3 Q       Well,   Mr.   McDames was  the holder  of  a high  chief's  4 name,   was  he not?    Do you  remember  his Gitksan name."  5 A      Yes,   they  had names,   but it's not  up to me  to  say   or  6 talk about  another House.  7 Q       Well,   do you remember what his name was?    W'nat  name  8 did he hold?  9 A  Antgulilbixw.  It's very hard for me to say, but since  0 you wanted to know, I will tell you it's Antgulilbixw.  1 Q  All right.  Thanks.  Henry Daksquk, ever heard of tnat  2 name? D-a-k-s-q-u-k.  Never heard of him?  3 A  No.  4 Q       All   right.     Thank you.  5 A      I  can't  say  I  know.     I  don't  know.     No,   I have  never  6 heard.  7 Q  In between the territories claimed by Tenimgyet here  8 is territory claimed by Herbert Bert, is that right?  9 THE INTERPRETER: Can you repeat that again please.  0 Q  In between the two territories that are claimed by Art  1 Matthews junior and is explained — as describee by  2 Mr. Matthews in his affidavit, there is a territory  3 claimed by Herbert Bert, and Herbert Bert's Gitksan  4 name is Wii Hlengwax?  5 A  It's on the one that will mean — the one Wii Hlengwax  6 mean is on the outside, the trail goes up Cedarvale  7 and Tsim an Loots, and the one — the one the Lajc 21  A. Matthews (for Plaintiffs)  Cross Exam by Mr. Goldie  1 Gibuu trail goes on the left side, goes up on the left  2 side.  3 Q       Well,   the trapping  grounds  that Charles Smith  and Mr.  4 Matthews were  on extend all  the way  from Wilson  Creek  5 to  Cedar  River,   did they  not?  6 MR.   GRANT:     This is  the  trapline  registration you are  talking  7 about?  8 MR.   GOLDIE:     No,   I  am  talking  about  the territory  that  he  9 trapped.     I  am not  talking about  trapline  .0 registrations  .1 MR.   GRANT:     Well,   you were  talking  about the two territories  in  .2 the  affidavit.  .3 MR.   GOLDIE:     That's  correct.  .4 MR.   GRANT:     And now you are  talking about the  trapline —  .5 MR.   GOLDIE:     I  am  not  talking  about —  I  am  talking  about   the  .6 ground  that he  and Mr.   Smith trapped on before Ib-.y.  .7 MR.   GRANT:     Where he trapped.     I  see.  .8 MR.   GOLDIE:     That's   right.  .9 Q       And that  ground  extended from Wilson  Creek over   to  :0 Cedar  River,   did  it not?  1 A      This is hereditary   territory  of  the Lax. Gibuu,   and  it  :2 went as far  as  Cedar  River,   as far  back as  I   know,   ano  3 that's as far  as  the elders went,   and that was as  tar  :4 as we went.  :5 Q       Yes.     And you,   that is  to  say  we,   as Mr.   Matthews  puts  16 it,   that his wife's House  claimed  trapping  rights  or  :7 used trapping  rights  all  the way  from Wilson  Creek to  :8 Cedar  River,   isn't  that  right?  9 A      Yes.     And  it would go  down to another  lake.     Down  0 west.  1 Q       Sand Lake?  2 MR.   GRANT:     Just a moment.  3 THE WITNESS:       Coming from  Sand Lake  it would go  up to Dam  4 Gitsum Geelum.     This what you folks  call  Kitsumkalum  5 Lake.  16 MR.   GOLDIE:  1 Q       Yes.     But  it's  stretched right from Wilson  Creek  right  8 over to  Cedar  River,   Sand Lake and Kitsumkalum hake,  9 is that  right?  0 MR. GRANT:  When you say it stretched, what are you saying  11 stretched?  2 MR. GOLDIE:  I am talking about the territory that he and  ,3 Charlie Smith trapped on prior to 1S49.  4 MR.   GRANT:     Okay.  5 THE WITNESS: That's where the — that's as far as the boundary  ,6 goes. We didn't go right into Dam Gitsum Geelum .hake,  7                               we came —  the  boundary  line is  just  short  of   the 22  A. Matthews (for Plaintiffs)  Cross Exam by Mr. Goldie  1 lake, just on this side, and we never ever went over  2 the boundary.  We knew where the boundary was.  3 Q  What was the boundary please?  4 A  The boundary line was a little creek called Xsi  5 Mihletxwit, and that was the boundary line.  6 Q  And on the other side were there people from  7 Kitsumkalum?  8 A  Yes.  It does not extend over it.  It ends at the  9 Gisax itt.  0 MR.   GRANT:     Extends  over which?  1 THE  INTERPRETER:     This one.     Number  4.  2 MR.   GRANT:     Number  4   under   creeks  on page 5   of  the affidavit.  3 That's identified in English as Lower Handenscrula  4 Creek,   Lower  Cedar River,   Lower  Kitsumkalum River.  5 THE WITNESS:        Yes.  6 MR.   GOLDIE:  7 Q       And on the  other   side  of   that  creek were Kitsumkalum  8 people,   is  that  right?  9 A      Yes.  0 Q       Now,   the —  if  I  understood you correctly,   Mr.  1 Matthews,   you haven't  been on the  territory  for   over  2 30 years?  3 A       Yes.  4 MR. GRANT:  You are referring to the western of the two  5 territories, I presume?  6 MR. GOLDIE:  No, I am referring to both territories, however, 1  7 see your point.  8 Q  Let's take the Wilson Creek territory.  Your answer  9 applies to the Wilson Creek territory.  0 A  Now that the children are grown up and they are adults  1 and they have done what their grandfather has saia, ne  2 told them it was their own territory, and they have  3 built a Smoke House there.  4 Q  But the question was for Mr. Matthews.  He hasn't been  5 on the Wilson Creek territory since he and Charlie  6 Smith trapped there prior to 1949, is that correct?  7 A  What do you mean he hasn't been?  8 Q  On the territory, on the Wilson Creek.  9 A  Trapping?  0 MR. GRANT:  Just a second.  1 MR. GOLDIE:  Let's see if we can take it a step at a time.  2 MR. GRANT:  Just for the record, the judge was present when hi.  3 Matthews senior was on that territory and the judge at  4 the time of the viewing.  They were on that territory.  5 MR. GOLDIE:  All right.  We got that out.  6 Q  Mr. Matthews, when were you last on the Wilson Creek  7 territory? 23  A. Matthews (for Plaintiffs)  Cross Exam by Mr. Goldie  1 A  When Charlie Smith died we left it for awhile, but we  2 live there now, and we did own even before Geoffrey  3 Morgan died.  4 Q       Are you talking about where you live,   or  are you  5 talking about  being on the  territory  that is   claimed  6 or  the  same thing?  7 A      Yes,   we have a  cabin out  there,   but we don't  do  any  8 trapping —  I  don't  do any  trapping.  9 Q       And before Geoffrey  Morgan died you didn't go  on  .0 either   of  the  territories  until your  son  got  .1 permission  to  use  a fishing site from Mrs.   Matthews  .2 senior   that is?  .3 THE  INTERPRETER:       Well,   he  just  said that even before Georrrey  .4 died —  .5    MR. GOLDIE:  All right.  .6   THE INTERPRETER:  — they have been on the territory.  .7 Q  Ask for him to describe for me the times when he was  .8 on the territory — either territory before Geoffrey  .9 died.  10 A      Yes,   we mostly  do  fishing.     There  used to be  a lot  of  11 things you  could  do on the  territory,   like  picking  12 berries,   but you  can't  any  more.  13 Q       And why  is  that?  14 A      Because you  can't  burn  it any more.     The  government  15 won't  allow it.     If we  ao,   they will  put  us  in  jail.  16 Q      How old was Mr.   Smith when he died?  17 MR.   GRANT:     Charlie  Smith?  18 MR.   GOLDIE:     Yes.  19 A      90   something like  that.     He 105  from —  he was  about  10 90  or  something like  that,   and his wife was  a 1U5  when  H she died.  12 Q       In paragraph  eight  of your   affidavit you say   that Mr.  13 Smith,   Charles  Smith,   told you that  the  boundary  has  14 remained the  same  since  long before the arrival   of  15 European people here,   what — when do you understand  16 European people  arrived here?  17 A      I  guess  before  I was  born.     I was  born in 1913.  18 Q      And that's as  precise  as Mr.   Matthews can be,   before  19 1913?    That's when you — have you nothing more  to  go  10 by  than that,   is  that  right?  11 MR.   GRANT:     I  think you asked about four questions,   ano maybe  12 you can narrow  it  down to one  for  him to  give  the  13 answer.  14 MR.   GOLDIE:  15 Q       Mr.   Smith didn't  give you any  dates?  16 A      No,   he  didn't.     But  the European people  should  say  17 what year  they  came.     They  were the ones  that  came. 24  A. Matthews (for Plaintiffs)  Cross Exam by Mr. Goldie  1 Q  Maybe before Mr. Smith was born.  2 MR. GRANT:  There is nothing to answer to that.  3 THE WITNESS:        No.  4 MR.   GOLDIE:  5 Q  Did anybody ever tell you how the territories were  6 divided up?  7 A  I guess it was pretty well done the same way as the  8 European people.  They grow things to eat ano they  9 fence it off, and that was just about the same way it  0 was done.  1 Q  Are there any traaitions or information about why the  2 territory of Tenimgyet is where it is?  3 A  Yes, they have an adaawk that tells why.  4 Q  There is an adaawk?  5 A  Yes.  6 Q  But that's not the adaawk of your House, is it?  7 A  No, we have a different one.  8 Q  Yes.  I am going to show you a map which was attached  9 to the interrogatories response that was given by your  0 son, and it's supposed to be the Wilson Creek area.  1 Have you ever seen that map before?  2 A  No.  It's the white people who make up these maps.  3 Indian people don't.  I told you before that my  4 grandfather never had a map, anything like this.  5 Q  Well, that was a map that we understand Mr. Marvin  6 George prepared, but if you have never seen that map  7 before, I won't ask you any questions about it.  8 What — when you speak of your grandfather, are you  9 referring to Smith, Mr. Smith?  0 -A  Yes, he was.  Charles Smith was my real grandfather.  1 That was my mother's father.  2 Q  Right.  The — there was another map that has been  3 supplied, but I assume that it too is one that you are  4 not familiar with.  5 MR. GRANT:  This was part of the schedule of Art Matthews —  6 MR. GOLDIE:  I think SO.  7 MR. GRANT:  Just a moment.  It appears to be the case rrom my  8 file.  9 MR. GOLDIE:  0 Q  Would you ask Mr. Matthews if he can locate Sand Lake  1 on that map for me.  And I realize he is not familiar  2 with maps, but perhaps if he took the Gitksan name of  3 Sand Lake, which is in his affidavit, and asked rum to  4 see if he can find it for me on that map.  5 MR. GRANT:  Well, just before you ask him that, is there — is  6 there much point in asking him this, when the name  7 that is in the affidavit for Sand Lake is written on 25  A. Matthews (for Plaintiffs)  Cross Exam by Mr. Goldie  1 the map?  It's obvious to anyone.  2 MR. GOLDIE: Just ask him to find it for me.  3 MR. GRANT:  Is there any point in that exercise?  4 MR. GOLDIE:  I am just asking him to assist me.  5 MR. GRANT:  Well —  6 MR.   GOLDIE:     If he  can't,   that's fine.  7 MR.   GRANT:     I  thought we were  trying  to expedite matters,   Mr.  8 Goldie,   not extend them.     I want all  of  these  9 witnesses  completed this week.  0 MR.   GOLDIE:     If you will  cease your  comments,   we'll  get  along  1 with  it.  2 MR.   GRANT:     I  can  point  it  out  to you.  3 MR.   GOLDIE:     Why  don't you.  4 MR.   GRANT:     Dam Git Axsol  is  right  there,   and it's written the  5 same as  Sand Lake.  6 MR.   GOLDIE:  7 Q  Mr. Matthews, do you recognize Gitksan language when  8 it is written?  9 A  No.  0 MR.   GOLDIE:       All   right.     That's all   I wanted to find out.  1 Thank you.     That  completes my  examination.  2  3 (PROCEEDINGS ADJOURNED)  4 (PROCEEDINGS RECONVENED)  5  6 CROSS EXAMINED BY MR. FREY:  ,7  8 Q  Mr. Matthews, I would like to start out just by going  9 over a couple of details arising out of the questions  0 that Mr. Goldie was asking this morning.  All right.  1 Now, I understand that your evidence was that berore  2 Geoffrey Morgan passed away he gave you ano your son,  3 Art, permission to go and build a Smoke House down on  4 Wilson Creek?  5 A  Yes, that's a law of our people.  They always get  6 permission from the rest, even if it is their own  7 House.  8 Q      All  right.     Now,   I also understood that you said that  9 you were now living  down  there.     Did you build a house  0 for yourself  near  the  Smoke House?  1 A      Yes,   my  son  build it.     I  didn't  build it myself.     ny  2 children did.  3 Q      But it's  close to the Smoke House?  4 A      Yes.  5 Q  When did you — what year was it when you went in ano  6 started building — excuse me — when your son went in  7 and started building the Smoke House and your house.' 26  A. Matthews (for Plaintiffs)  Cross Exam by Mr. Frey  1 A  While Geoffrey was still alive.  2 Q  So would it be 1984, 1985?  3 A  Something like that.  It was shortly before Georlrey  4 died.  5 Q  All right.  Now, before you went back into Wilson  6 Creek to build the Smoke House, had you been there  7 since the death of Charles Smith?  8 A  No.  9 Q  And when was the last time that you actually went up  0 the creek into the lands above the river, went up  1 Wilson Creek into the lands above the river? has that  2 before the death of Charles Smith?  3 A  We were called to the House of Charles Smith, ano his  4 wife cooked for us and we all ate together, and it was  5 then that he told us that it was going to be his last  6 time on the territory, and it was then that he tola my  7 wife not to take the children out on the territory  8 again until they have grown up.  And tnat was what we  9 did and that was the last time I went up the creek and  0 up the top.  1 Q      Before  Charles  Smith passed away  how  often would you  2 go up the  creek  up to the  top?  3 A      That was  the last  time we went with him,   when he  told  4 us not  to  go  there.     But  I asked him again,   ano he  5 said we  only   used to  go  up there for  goat,   and we  6 didn't  go  up that  often.  7 Q      All   right.     Now,   I'm going  to ask you the same  8 question for   the  other  territory.     Before  Charles  9 Smith  passed away,   how often would he go  to  the  Ceoar  0 River   territory?  1 A      He was   getting  on in years  and —  so we used  to  only  2 go as  far  as  Sganism Habasxw,   because he was  getting  3 old and we  couldn't —  he really  couldn't go  all   the  4 way  to Tsihl Gwellii.  5 Q       Can anyone  give me an English  name for  that  Gitksan  6 name?     Probably  on  page 5.  7 MR.   GRANT:     What was  it?     Sganism Habasxw  is  a mountain  unnamed.  8 Number 2.  9 MR. FREY:  0 Q  I'm moving onto something else now.  Richard and  1 Willis Morgan, I missed whether they were trie sons of  2 Wallace Morgan or Geoffrey Morgan.  3 A  Wallace.  4 Q  Wallace.  5 MR. GRANT:  You asked about Richard and Willis.  6 MR. FREY:  Willis.  7 Q  Now, up to the death of Wallace Morgan I understand 27  A. Matthews (for Plaintiffs)  Cross Exam by Mr. Frey  1 that by Am Nii Gwootxw — I have Richard and Willis  2 had the right to use Tenimgyet's territory without  3 asking permission, is that correct?  4 THE INTERPRETER: Up until the death of Wallace?  5 Q  Yes, the father.  6 A      Yes,   they  did and could,   but after  his death  they   have  7 to ask  the  other  person,   whoever  took the  chief's  8 name.  9 Q       All   right.     Now,   on another  point Mr.   Goldie askea you  .0 about a  name  that you didn't recognize and  I  didn't  .1 recognize  either,   but  I  am  going  to try  another  .2 version  of  it.     Do you recognize  the name Henry  .3 Wilitzque?  .4 A  Where does he come from?  .5 Q  I'm not too sure.  I am just trying my best.  The  .6 spelling I have is W-i-1-i-t-z-q-u-e.  I may not be  .7 pronouncing it very well.  .8 A      Who —  do you  know his  chief's  name?  .9 Q       No,   I'm  sorry.     That name doesn't  ring a bell?  10 A      He  knows Harry Wii Liitxw.     He  thinks it might  be  11 Harry  Wii  Liitxw.  12 Q       All   right.     Do you  know what  clan Harry  is  in?  13 A      Ganada.     Frog clan.  14 Q       And was he from  Kitwancool  or   Kitwangak?  15 A      He  comes  from  Kitwancool,   but  he live in  Kitwangak.  16 Q       Do you  recall  what House he was in?  17 A      Wii Liitxw's the House  from  Kitwancool.     The  chief's  :8 name is Wii Liitxw.  9 Q       I  am moving onto  another  area  now.     I  understand  that  0 these  persons were adopted from the House  of   Kliiyem  1 Lax Haa  into the house  of  Tenimgyet,   ano maybe you  can  2 tell me  if  these persons were  in fact adopted.     I'll  3 just  go through  them  one  by  one.  .4         THE  INTERPRETER:     Whose House?  5 MR.   FREY:     Tenimgyet.  ;6 A      Yes,   if you  give  the names.  1 Q      Henry  Tait?  8 A      Yes.  9 Q      Horace Tait?  0 A      Yes.  1 Q      And Vina  Tait?  2 A      Yes.  3 Q       They were all  adopted into Tenimgyet?  4 A      Yes,   all  Tenimgyets — yes,   they  are all  in  5 Tenimgyet's House  right now.  :6 Q       Do you recall  if  they were all  adopted at tne  same  ■7 time? 28  A.   Matthews   (for  Plaintiffs)  Cross  Exam  by  Mr.   Frey  1 A  Yes.  2 Q  Do you know approximately how old they were when they  3 were adopted?  4 A  When they were still very young.  5 Q  Do you know why they were adopted into the House of  6 Tenimgyet?  7 A       I  know.  8 Q  Can you tell me why they were adopted?  9 A  Because they all in the family.  Because they are ail  0 related and Vinas, Kathleens, their mothers or  1 sisters, and they are related to Henry and tney are —  2 a chief is just like a tree that has many roots, ano  3 that's the way they are.  That's how the family is.  4 Q  Now, I understand that Vina Tait married George 'rurner  5 and they had several children, and my understanding  6 are that the children are Georgina, Winnifred and  7 Samuel.  Maybe you could just repeat that to him.  8 A  Yes.  9 Q  Now, are those children in the House of Tenimgyet or  0 are they in the House of Kliiyem Lax Hax?  1 A  I think Tenimgyets.  They are all one in the same.  2 Q  All right.  Now, I want to switch subjects again ano  3 ask you a few questions about Charles Smith.  Do you  4 know what clan Charles Smith belonged to?  5 A  Gisgaast, Fireweed.  6 Q  And do you know what House in that clan?  7 A  Niista Hoo'k House in Kitsalas.  8 THE INTERPRETER: N-i-i-s-t-a, H-o-o'k, underlined, Kitsalas.  9 Q  Charles Smith also held a name in the House of  0 Tenimgyet, is that right?  1 A  That was why we were on the territory, because he held  2 onto the name as the House of Tenimgyet was pretty  3 well extinct, and he looked after that territory, so  4 he had one of the names in Tenimgyet's House.  5 Q  Do you remember which name that was?  6 A  Algyaxm La^c Ha, that was his own name.  And he i.eld  7 the name Xbiila^cha.  8 Q  Xbiila.xha was the name in the House of Tenimgyet?  9 A  Yes.  0 Q      Was he merely   a  caretaker  of  that  name?  1 A      The reason was he was  the one that paid for  ail  the  2 expenses when his father  died.     He was  the one  that  3 brought  the  body  home from the  coast,   and he  paid for  4 all  the  expenses.  5 Q      Was his father A^tii Hiikw?  6 MR.   GRANT:     Just  a second.  7 A      The Morgan's were  there,   but  Charles  paid for 29  A.   Matthews   (for  Plaintiffs)  Cross Exam  by  Mr.   Frey  1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  0  1  2  3  4  5  6  7  .8  9  :0  1  ,2  3  4  ,5  :6  7  ,8  9  0  1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  :0  1  2  3  4  5  :6  7  MR.  MR.  MR.  MR.  MR.  MR.  MR.  MR.  THE  MR.  MR.  FREY:  Q  A  Q  everything.  And  His  Did  who was  Charles  Smith's father?  the  or  same  is  GRANT:  FREY:  A  he was  father's  name was  Xbiilajcha.  Charles  Smith  hold the name Xbiilajcha in  way   that   Ivan Matthews holds that  name today,  there any  difference?  :     Are you asking him  if he held the name  or  if  caretaker   of   the name?  That's what   I  am  trying to  get at.  He was  just  a  caretaker.     He just held onto  the  name,  because  there was no  one  else in the House  to  take it.  All   right.     And when he held that name,   he  remained  Gisgaast,   he  didn't  become Laj£ Gibuu?  He  remained Gisgaast.     He was  just  a  caretaker   of   the  name.     And when Jacob Morgan was  old enough  to  take  the name,   he  gave  it  to him.     He  returned the name  and  the  territory  to  the House.  And you  said that it was because  Charles  Smith paid  the funeral  expenses  that he was entitled to  take  care  of  that  name.     I  believe you also  said that  the  Morgans   knew about  that and approveo  of  it.  :    He  just  said that —  the first  part he  did say.  Yes.  :     The second part  I don't have a note —  I oon't  recall  him  saying — he  said the Morgans were  there,  but —  All   right.     The Morgans were  there.     That's  tine.  I  think  that was his  evidence.  INTERPRETER:  He  said  the House was  extinct  and —  GRANT:     I  just want  to  clarify —  the question,   I  how  it's worded,   because  I  don't think  it1  GRANT:  FREY:  GRANT:  FREY:  GRANT:  object  to  s  exactly  FREY:  Q  Q  A  Q  A  how you  framed it.     I  don't  object to you asking  it.  That's  fine.     The Morgans were there,   why  didn't  the  Morgans  pay   the funeral  expenses?  That was when the missionaries first  came  in,   and they  were at  Cedarvale and Steve Morgan was,   I  guess,  influenced by   them.     He was  religious  and he didn't  believe in having  a feast,   so when he  died and they  asked him —  and they  called the people —  at the  time  they  called the people  dead people,   I  guess,   and  his  answer  was   "Let  the dead people bury   their  own oeao."  This  is  Steven Morgan who said that?  Because  he at  the time,   he was  religious.  All   right.  So Charles Smith took it upon himself to pay for ail 30  A. Matthews (for Plaintiffs)  Cross Exam by Mr. Frey  1 the expenses and bury his father.  2 Q  So it was Steven Morgan who was in line to take the  3 name, but he didn't wish to for the reasons you have  4 just stated?  5 A  It should have been his wife.  6 Q  Do you know who taught Charles Smith about the  7 Tenimgyet territories?  8 A  His father.  9 Q       Xbiilaxha?  LO A      Uh-huh.  LI Q      Now,   did you  know  Sara Morgan who held the  name  L2 Tenimgyet?  L3 A      That's  Steven Morgan's wife.     She was  the one  wuo nad  L4 the name Tenimgyet.  15 Q      All   right.     Did you  ever  go with her  to either   or   the  L6 two territories?  L7 A      They   used to go out  on their  own,   and they   used  to  L8 stay  at La^c Lilbajc.     There is  a little  camp on tne  L9 island and the  elders  called it La^c Lilbai.  JO Q       Is  that  the island in the middle  of  Sand Lake?  >1 A      Yes.  12 MR. GRANT:  Number 2 under paragraph 14 on page 5.  >3    MR. FREY:  IA Q  But you never went out there with her?  >5 A  No.  IS Q       All   right.     And you also  knew  Charlie Derrick who was  11 Axtii Hiikw?  IB A      Yes,   I   know  him.  29 Q  And did you go to either of the territories with him?  50 A  Yes.  $1 Q  And did you go to both of the territories with him?  52 A  Yes.  53 Q  And did you ever go to the territories with Wallace  54 Morgan?  55 A  Yes, Wallace and Geoffrey.  56 Q  And that was all in the period before Charles bmith  57 passed away?  58 A  Yes.  59 Q  Now, did any of those people, I'll just list them off  10 again, Sara Morgan, Charlie Derrick, and you mentioned  11 Wallace and Geoffrey, did they ever teach you about  12 the boundaries of the territory, or was it Charles  13 Smith who taught you?  14 MR. GRANT:  Well, could have been both.  15 MR. FREY:  Well, let's see what the answer is.  16 MR. GRANT: Well, you have set it up as an alternative, ano 1  17 think that if you want — you can ask the first part 31  A. Matthews (for Plaintiffs)  Cross Exam by Mr. Frey  1 of it.  They may have all taught him —  2 MR. FREY:  He can say they all did.  3 MR. GRANT: Well, you said did they do it or did Charles ao it.  4 MR.   FREY:  5 Q       Did they  teach you  or  did any   of   them  teach you or   was  6 it  only   Charles?  7 A      Geoffrey   and Wallace  told me a little bit,   but   they  8 didn't  know —  really   know the  territory  as much as  9 Charles  did,   because  they  weren't there when he died.  0 Q       Okay.     Now,   Steven Morgan was Sara Morgan's husband.  1 What  clan was he  in?  2 A      Gisgaast,   Fireweed.  3 Q      And do you  know what House he was  in?  4 A      He was  the  chief.     His  chief's name was Sa  oyumxw at  5 the time,   and it might  be  the  same as Wii  gyet.  6 MR.   GRANT:     Could you tell me who you were  asking about.  7 MR.   FREY:     Steven Morgan.     And he held a name that may  be  the  8 same as  the name Wii  gyet.  9 THE  INTERPRETER:     No,   as  the House  Of  Wii  gyet.  0 Q       Oh,   it's a name in the House of Wii  gyet?  1 A      Yes,   it  is  just  like  any  of  the other Houses.     There  2 is  one main  chief  and  then there  are  others.  3 Q      All  right.     Can  I  get a spelling on that  chief's name.  4 THE   INTERPRETER:   S-a-O-y-u-m-X-w.  5 Q       Now,   are you aware  that Steven Morgan was  registered,  6 and  I mean registered in a  government  o±rice,   as  the  7 head man  of  a large  trapline  that  included Wilson  8 Creek?    Did you  know that?  9 A      He said  I  am  not  going to lie.     I  don't  know  anything  0 about  it.     Maybe  the white  people have one.  1 Q       So you have no  idea where his  trapline was,   his  2 registered  trapline?  3 A      I wouldn't  know.     Maybe he has one at Skeena  Cross.     1  4 wouldn't   know.     That's where he comes from.  5 MR.   FREY:       Those  are all  the questions  that  I have.     Thank you  6 very much.     Those  are  all  the questions  I have  ror  7 you.  8  9 EXAMINED BY  MR.   GRANT:  .0  :1 Q       I  just  have a few questions  to ask you,   Mr.   Matthews.  2 You were asked  by  Mr.   Goldie if you told your  son Art,  3 Neil John Sterritt and myself the boundaries or  the  4 Tenimgyet  territories,   and you said —  and you said  5 you had. Did you tell your son Art before or at the  s6 same time as you told Neil Sterritt and myself about  7                               the boundaries? 32  A.   Matthews   (for   Plaintiffs)  Exam  by  Mr.   Grant  1 A      I  started telling him when he was — my  son Art when  2 he was very young,   and his  grandfather  Charles  also  3 did the  same,   and he built a Smoke House  and log  4 house,   but  I  don't  know where  it went to now.     It was  5 supposed to be for  one  of my  daughters,   Mary.  6 Q       Now,   just  a few moments ago you were asked about  7 whether  Sara Morgan,   Charlie Derrick,   Wallace  Morgan  8 and Geoffrey  Morgan taught you about  the boundaries  of  9 the  territory,   as well  as  Charles  Smith,   and you said  .0 that Geoffrey  and Wallace  told me  a little,   but  they  .1 didn't  tell me as much,   or   they  aian't  know  as much  as  .2 Charlie  did.     Did  Charlie  Derrick  teach you anything  .3 about  the boundaries  of   the territory?  .4 A      No,   because  that was  one  of  the  reasons why  beorrrey  .5 didn't want my  son  to  use  the name Ax.tii Hiikw,  .6 because Axtii Hiikw didn't  really  know too much about  .7 the territory.  .8 Q       And  Charlie  Derrick was Ajctii Hiikw?  .9 A      Yes.  10 Q       You were asked by  Mr.   Goldie about whether you tisheo  11 in the Skeena —  about your  occupations,   ano one  of  12 the things  he asked you is whether you fished  in  the  13 Skeena for  food,   and you  said yes.     Do you also lish  14 in the Skeena  to catch fish for  trace?  15 A      Yes,   I  do.     I  trade  even with  some  of my white  16 friends.     I  trade  them  for   turnips.     They  give me  17 turnips  and  I  give  them fish.  18 Q       Mr.   Goldie asked you about whether  the land  that  19 Geoffrey  Morgan  claimed at  the beginning  of   this  court  »0 action on behalf —  as Axtii Hiikw was  the same  land  11 that was  being  claimed  by  Tenimgyet,   and he  referred  12 on many   occasions  in his questioning of you to the  13 House  of  Axtii  Hiikw.     Is  the House  of A^tii Hiikw  the  14 same  or   different  than  the House  of  Tenimgyet?  15 A      That was why —  that was why Geoffrey  told Art  not  to  16 use  the  name A^ctii  Hiikw,   because  the  real  power   in  M the  territory —  of   the  territory  is  in the  name  S8 Tenimgyet.     But when Geoffrey  was holding —  was  using  19 the name Ajctii Hiikw,   it was referred to as  the  \0 territory  of Axtii Hiikw.  U Q       Okay.  \2 MR.   GOLDIE:  Excuse me.     Mr.   Matthews  referred to Mr.   Grant  in  13 his answer.     What was  the  reference to Mr.   Grant?  14 MR.   GRANT:     I'm  sorry.     Thank you,   Mr.   Goldie.     He mentioned iuy  15 name in the answer.     What  did he  say?  16 THE  INTERPRETER:       When he was  in  Court  and he was  asked who was  17 going to take  the  chief's  name,   and that was when 33  A. Matthews (for Plaintiffs)  Exam by Mr. Grant  1 Geoffrey looked back and he pointed at Art.  2 MR. GRANT:  3 Q  That was when Geoffrey was in court and was being  4 questioned by myself?  5 A  Yes.  6 Q  I would just like to — I gave a preliminary  7 explanation.  I would just like to — which may i.ave  8 confused the witness.  I just want to ask the question  9 one more time.  Is the House of A£tii Hiikw the same  0 or different than the House of Temmgyet?  1 A  It was like I said before, there was only one tree,  2 but it has many roots, and that is like the family or  3 Axtii Hiikw and Tenimgyet, one of them will be wiser  4 than the other, and that's just like a tree, was only  5 one tree, but it will have many roots.  6 Q  In your evidence this morning and this afternoon you  7 were asked many questions about what happened after  8 Charles Smith died, and you referred to Charles Smith  9 as saying that if anything happens to him when he  0 died, not to return to the territory, and then later  1 you described not to return to the territory until the  2 children grew up, and you also said this morning he  3 treasured the children and told us not to go on the  4 territory.  When he was referring to wait until the  5 children grow up, was he referring to your children or  6 to the children of the Morgans?  ;7 A  My children.  The reason why he said it was because we  8 didn't really know what the new chief was going to be  9 like.  Sometimes there is jealousy, and he wanted us  0 to be sure the kind of a person he was going to be  1 before we go on the territory.  2 Q  Now, you were asked this morning about where you ana  3 Charles Smith trapped when you went on the territory  4 with Charles Smith.  You were asked if you trapped  5 from Wilson Creek all the way to Cedar River.  Did you  6 and Charles Smith trap on the territory where Wilson  7 Creek is located, the territory of Tenimgyet wneie  8 Wilson Creek is located?  9 MR. GOLDIE:  I think he has answered that question.  Excuse me,  0 I don't think that is clarification of any  1 cross-examination.  It's cross-examination.  2 MR. GRANT:  It isn't cross-examination.  It's not a leading  3 question in any way.  You asked if — your questions  4 were framed in a very, very general and vague way, and  5 I am asking if he trapped with Charles Smith on the  6 territory where Wilson Creek is located.  You askea —  7 MR. GOLDIE:  I asked that a dozen times. 34  A. Matthews (for Plaintiffs)  Exam by Mr. Grant  1 MR. GRANT:  You asked it in a much different way, Mr. Goldie.  2 Your objection is noted and we can argue over the  3 right to ask the question later.  I want an answer to  4 the question.  5 MR. GOLDIE:  Well, I am objecting to it.  It is not proper  6 re-examination.  7 MR. GRANT:  Okay.  Your objection is recorded.  8 MR. GOLDIE:  Well, it's not a question of recording it.  9 MR. GRANT:  We don't have a judge here to rule on your  0 objection, and the objection is recorded.  1 MR. GOLDIE: That's right.  2 MR. GRANT:  As with the commission evidence, where I will ask  3 the question and we can argue this out in due course.  4 I take the position that I am entitled to ask it.  5  6 (QUESTION READ BACK BY THE REPORTER)  7  8 A  Wilson Creek is just a place for fishing and Wilson  9 Creek is — Wilson Creek is not a trapping area, it's  0            mostly just for fishing and berry picking and drying  ,1 eels.  The real trapping area goes up the Xsu ^.win  2 Biyoosxwit Creek.  There is a little spring there  3 where it begins at Cedarvale and that's where the  4 trail goes up.  5 Q  Xsu Gwin Biyoosxwit, I think, is number 9 on page 6 of  6 the affidavit under creeks.  That is the afridavit  7 which is Exhibit 352.  8 Did you and Charles Smith, when you went out with  9 him, trap in the area of Sand Lake or as Dam Git  0 Axsol?  1 A  The real trapping or trapline begins at Sagan  2 Tsaltxwit, goes up to Saganism Habasxw, goes along Luu  3 Lax Sooxit, and then it gets — it goes up to Haahl  4 Daakhl.  5 MR.   GRANT:     Haahl  Daakhl   is  1  on page 5   under mountains.  6 MR.   FREY:     I  believe  the  third name is number 7  on page 6.     And  7 I  didn't  get the first  two.  8 THE  INTERPRETER:     Sagan Tsaltxwit and Saganism Habasxw.  9 MR.   GRANT:     The first  feature is number  3  under mountains  on  rO page 5.     The  second one is  number  2  under mountains,  :1 and that's number 7  on page 6   under  other  features,  r2 and the fourth one is number 1  under mountains.     Ano  :3 most —   I believe all  of   those  features are  on the  :4 sketch map that was  tendered in the evidence  of  Art  5 Matthews  junior.     I  don't have  the exhibit number   or  \6 that.     It would be  probably  close to Exhibit a2.  ■1 Q       You were asked by  Mr.   Goldie about how old Charles 35  A. Matthews (for Plaintiffs)  Exam by Mr. Grant  1 Smith was when he died, and you said he was over 90.  2 You were then asked about what you knew about wiien tue  3 Europeans first came here.  Did Charles Smith tell  4 you —  5 MR.   GOLDIE:     Please  don't lead the witness.  6 MR.   GRANT:  7 Q  — anything about the arrival of Europeans in his life  8 time.  9 A  No, he never talked about it.  .0 Q  Okay.  Have you gone up above Wilson Creek hunting  .1 since your son built the Smoke House on Wilson Creek?  .2 A  Yes.  .3 Q       Do you  recall —  who did you go with?  .4 A      His  own brothers,   Charles,   Ivan,   myself  and my  .5 grandchildren were  goat hunting.  .6 Q       When you say  his  own  brothers,   are you referring  to  .7 your  brothers or your  son Art's brothers?  .8 A      Art's  brothers.  .9 Q       Thank you.     I'm sorry,   you have something you want  to  [0 say?  11 A       No.  \2 Q       Did you say you went  goat hunting?  !3 A      Yes.  !4 MR.   GOLDIE:   I  believe he told me he hadn't been hunting  because  !5 of  his  condition.  :6 MR.   GRANT:     Well,   as you see,   Mr.   Goldie,   I am trying to clarify  17 some  of   the things.  :8 Q       Do you  remember  when that was  that you went  up with  :9 Art and Charles and  Ivan?     If you  can't recail,   that's  i0 all  right.  il A      Just  when my  sister   killed in  Kitwangak,   September  >2 year.  • 3 Q       Who was your  sister?  14 A       Four years now  since  I was  up there,   but now  I  15 can't —  16 Q       Now you can't  go   up?     Can you finish  that?  17 A       I'm too  old now.     I'm not  that  strong any more.  »8 Q       You were questioned this afternoon about  the tuneral  9 for  Charles Smith's father  that  Charles arranged.  f0 there a feast when Charles  Smith's father  died?  il MR.   FREY:       Before you  give  the answer,   was  the question was  \2 there a feast when  Charles Smith's father  died,   or  13 when  Charles  Smith  died?  >4 MR.   GRANT:     Charles Smith's father.  i5 A      Yes,   there was a feast and  Kathleen's  grandmother  was  t6 there and Charlie Derrick to help.  17 Q       Was there a funeral  feast when Steven Morgan  died? 36  A.   Matthews   (for  Plaintiffs)  Exam by  Mr.   Grant  1  MR  2  3  MR  4  5  MR,  6  7  MR  8  9  0  MR,  .1  .2  .3  .4  MR,  .5  .6  .7  .8  .9  MR,  :0  :l  MR,  \2  :3  MR,  :4  MR,  :5  MR,  :6  :7  MR,  :8  19  MR,  0  1  2  MR.  3  ■ 4  ;5  ;6  MR,  [7  18  19  10  il  MR.  \2  13  MR.  i4  MR.  t5  MR.  :6  \1  MR.  FREY:  How does that  arise  out  of   the questions this  afternoon?  GRANT:     It  comes  out  of   the question that  Steven Morgan  was  influenced by  religion out  of  his answer.  FREY:     Well,   I never  asked any question that raised  the  topic of  his  demise  or his feast.  GRANT:     Well,   you asked a question that  raised about  Steven  Morgan was influenced by  religion.     That was  the  answer.  FREY:     The question was  about  Charles Smith's father's  feast,   and that was  the  only  evidence  that  came  out.  The matter   of  Steven Morgan's  death  or  funeral   feast  didn't  didn't  come  up.  GRANT:     The answer  that was  given in part was that Steven  Morgan was  influenced  by  religion,   and that answer  came  up whether you wanted it  or  not,   and  I want  to  know whether  Steven Morgan,   when he was  buried,   tnere  was  a funeral  feast,   and  that  arises  out  of   that.  FREY:     I  don't  see how  that follows  in any   event from  the  evidence  given,   and  I  object  to that.  GOLDIE:     I  object  too,   because  the only   relevance  of   that is  that he  didn't pay  for   the funeral  expenses.  GRANT:     Both your  objections  are  noted.  GOLDIE:     Of  course  they  are noted,   Mr.   Grant.  GRANT:     Okay,   Mr.   Goldie,  your  objection is  noted.     Can   1  get  on with  it  so  I  can  go  to the next witness.  GOLDIE:     Why  bother  asking questions which  are totally  irrelevant.  GRANT:     Well,   if you are  going  to assure me that you are not  going to rely  on that answer at all  in your  final  argument,   I will  be happy —  GOLDIE:   I  am  relying  upon that  answer  because in this  sense  that he  didn't pay  for   the funeral  expenses.     That's  the  only  way  in which  Charles  Smith  came into  the  picture.  GRANT:     Charles  Smith,   you asked numerous questions about  him.     We are talking about Steven Morgan.  Q      Was there a funeral  feast at the time that Steven  Morgan  died?  A      Yes,   I  think his  relatives have one  in Kitsegucla.  GOLDIE:       Okay.     Thank you very much,   Mr.   Matthews.     I  nave  no further questions.  GOLDIE:     I have a question arising out  of your  examination.  GRANT:     Well,   mine  came directly  out  of your  cross.  GOLDIE:     I  beg your  pardon.     If your question is allowed,  you  raised a topic which  I did not touch  on.  GRANT:     Well,   so  did  counsel  for   Canada. 37  A.   Matthews   (for  Plaintiffs)  Re-exam  by  Mr.   Goldie  1 MR.   GOLDIE:     I'm sorry,   I wish  to ask this question.  2  3 RE EXAMINATION BY MR. GOLDIE:  4  5 Q       Mr.   Matthews,   is  the  creek which  starts with  the  6 little spring  up which  the  trapline is laid  emptied  7 into the  river  at  Cedarvale?  8 MR.   GRANT:     Well,   just a moment.     That,   Mr.   Goldie,   that  9 question makes  absolutely  no sense,   because he  did not  0 say   that  that  creek from which  the spring  comes  is   up  1 which  the  trapline  is  laid.  2 MR.   GOLDIE:     My  note is  that he  said he  didn't  trap on wilson  3 Creek because  that's  only  good  for  fishing.  4 MR.   GRANT:      Yes.  5 MR. GOLDIE:  And that the trapline was laid along a little creek  6 which either rises from or is related to a spring, ana  7 I understood him to connect that with Cedarvale.  8 MR. GRANT:  Well, he described also giving four place names as  9 to where they started trapping, and it started at  0 Sagan Tsaltxwit.  1 MR. GOLDIE:  No, we're talking about an entirely different  2 territory, Mr. Grant.  3 MR. GRANT:  No, I'm sorry, you're not.  4 MR. GOLDIE:  The little spring which begins at Cedarvale.  5 That's what I want.  I want it identified.  6 MR. FREY:  Mr. Grant, perhaps I can just be of assistance here.  7 The question was asked in two parts.  You first askea  8 him in examination about trapping on the Wilson Creek  9 territory, at which time the evidence Mr. Goldie  0 described was given, and then you went on to ask about  1 Sand Lake, at which time he gave the longer answer  2 with the various place names.  3 MR. GOLDIE:  I am talking about Wilson Creek.  4 MR. GRANT: What is the question you want him to —  5 MR. GOLDIE:  I want him to identify the real trapping area, and  6 he related that to a little spring which begins at  7 Cedarvale.  8 MR. GRANT:  He did not relate that to the trapping area,  he  9 said they travelled up that creek and then they  0 trapped, and he didn't relate that to that creek, ano  1 I am objecting to the question because it  2 misinterprets his answer.  3 MR. GOLDIE:  Well, I am asking him to identify the creek to  4 which he referred to in that answer, and —  5 MR. GRANT:  The creek that is connected to the spring near  6 Cedarvale?  7 MR.   GOLDIE:     That's  correct. 38  A.   Matthews   (for  Plaintiffs)  Re-exam  by  Mr.   Goldie  1 MR.   GRANT:     I  don't object  to you asking him what is  the name  or  2 the  creek  connected to the spring in Cedarvale.  3 MR.   GOLDIE:  That's  the first question.     Now,   Ms.   Howard  is  it  4 number  9   on page  6  of  his  affidavit?  5 THE   INTERPRETER:   Yes.  6 MR. GOLDIE: Is that the creek that he identified?  7 THE INTERPRETER: Yes, that's the one.  He said the trail begins  8 at Xsi Gwin Biyoosxwit where the little spring ends.  9 Q  You start to the real trapping area up that creek, is  0 that correct?  .1        A  That's where the trail begins he says.  .2        Q  All right.  To the real trapping area?  .3 THE INTERPRETER: And the real trapping area begins at Sagan  .4 Tsaltxwit.  .5 MR.   GRANT:     Number  3   under mountains.  6 THE  INTERPRETER:     Well,   that was  the  first.  .7 MR.   GOLDIE:  .8        Q  I want to be sure about this.  The trail to the real  .9 trapping area begins with Insect Creek; is tnat right?  :0        A  That's what he said, where the little spring is.  :1        Q  And that trail goes through the territory of Wii  :2 Hlengwax?  13 MR.   GRANT:     Wait  a minute.     I  object  to  that.     That didn't  coiae  ;4 out at  all  on redirect.     You  raised  that  all  on  :5 cross-examination,   Mr.   Goldie.     You specifically  askea  16 him about Wii  Hlengwax's territory,   and you had an  :7 • opportunity  to  go  on with that as  long as you wanted.  :8 MR.   GOLDIE:   I  got an answer which you sought  to  change.  :9 MR.   GRANT:     I  didn't  change  it at all.     I never mentioned Wii  0 Hlengwax's territory  in my  redirect,   and I object  to  1 that question.  2 MR.   GOLDIE:     I  had an answer which  stated that  the trapping went  3 from Wilson  Creek to  Cedar  River.     Now —  4 MR.   GRANT:     That's where  I say —  that on the  record will  show  5 the way your questions were framed.     He never   said  6 that  the  trapping went from Wilson  Creek to  Cedar  1 River.     He  described where  they  are.  >8 MR.   GOLDIE:  Your  objection is noted.  '9 MR.   GRANT:     I  don't  believe  this witness has to answer  any  tO question about  the Wii Hlengwajc  territory.     That was  tl raised on  cross.     We'll  be here forever  if you  keep  :2 raising new areas.  13 MR.   FREY:     Mr.   Grant,   the first  time  that any  evidence about  the  A real   trapping  area  came  out  being connected with  i5 Insect   Creek was  on the  re-examination.  \6 MR.   GRANT:    He's asked about  Insect  Creek.     I don't object  to  17 that question. 39  A.   Matthews   (for  Plaintiffs)  Re-exam  by  Mr.   Goldie  1 MR.   GOLDIE:     I  am  completing what arose  out  of  fresh evidence.  2 Q       And that  trail,   Mr.   Matthews,   goes through the  3 territory  of Wii Hlengwa^r   is  that  correct?    Woula you  4 ask  him  that please.  5 MR.   GRANT:     Wii Hlengwa^c  is  the proper  pronounciation.     I  object  6 to  the question.  7 THE WITNESS:       Where is Wii Hlengwa^c's territory?  8 MR.   GOLDIE:        Pardon?  9 THE INTERPRETER: He wants to know where Wii Hlengwa^c's territory  0 is.  1 Q  Ask him, does the trail go through it?  2 A  Wii Elengwax doesn't have any territory here.  rriiis is  3 just a common trail that is used.  4 Q  Thank you.  5 MR. GRANT:  Thank you Mr. Matthews.  You are free to go or to  6 stay.  7  8 (PROCEEDINGS   CONCLUDED)  9  ,0  ,1  2  ;3  4  5 I  HEREBY  CERTIFY  THE   FOREGOING   TO  ;6 BE  A TRUE  AND ACCURATE  'x'KAlviSCRi*T  7 OF  THE   PROCEEDINGS HEREIN   TO  THE  8 BESTJ2F—MY  SKILL-,AND ABILITY.  0  1 LORI   OXLEY  2 OFFICIAL   REPORTER  3 UNITED REPORTING SERVICE LTD.  4  5  6  1  8  9  ,0  2  [3  4  ,5  6  ,7 INDEX OF EXHIBITS  NUMBER DESCRIPTION PAGE  1 MAP SHOWN TO MR. MATTHEWS 8  2 DECLARATION OF CHIEF OF COUNCILLOR OF  EDWARD H. BENSON - APRIL 25f7 1947 JL3  3 DECLARATION OF CHIEF OF COUNCILLOR -.  DAVID L. WELLS - APRIL 25, 1947 13 INDEX  ART MATTHEWS (FOR PLAINTIFFS)  Cross Exam by Mr. Goldie 1  Cross Exam by Mr. Frey 25  Examined by Mr. Grant 31  Re-Exam : by. Mr. Goldie 37 APPEARANCES:  PETER R. GRANT, ESQ.,  APPEARING FOR THE PLAINTIFFS:  D.M.M. GOLDIE, ESQ., Q.C.,  JAMES M. MACKENZIE, ESQ.,  MS. THORA A. SIGURDSON,  APPEARING FOR HER MAJESTY THE  QUEEN IN RIGHT OF THE PROVINCE  OF BRITISH COLUMBIA;  MS. MARVYN KOENIGSBERG,  MICHAEL W.W. FREY, ESQ.,  APPEARING FOR THE ATTORNEY-  GENERAL OF CANADA


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