Delgamuukw Trial Transcripts

Commision Evidence of Jefferay Vincent Boys Vol. 5 British Columbia. Supreme Court Jan 23, 1990

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 <3!rt t\\e J&uprrae filourt of ^Britiel] Columbia  (BEFORE THE HONOURABLE THE CHIEF JUSTICE)  No 0843  Smithers Registry  Victoria, B.C.  January 23, 1990  BETWEEN  DELGAMUUKW, also known as KEN MULDOE,  suing on his own behalf and on behalf  of all other members of the HOUSE OF  DELGAMUUKW, and others,  Plaintiffs;  AND:  HER MAJESTY THE QUEEN IN RIGHT OF THE  PROVINCE OF BRITISH COLUMBIA and  THE ATTORNEY-GENERAL FOR CANADA,  Defendants.  (CONTINUATION OF)  COMMISSION EVIDENCE OF OEFFERAY VINCENT BOYS  Mill  WKKmCl <3)n if]p ^uptime Court of ^rittefj Columbia  (BEFORE THE HONOURABLE THE CHIEF 3USTICE)  * 0843 Victoria, B.C.  Smithers Registry January 'Äû; iggo  BETWEEN  DELGAMUUKW, also known as KEN MULDOE,  suing on his own behalf and on behalf  of all other members of the HOUSE OF  DELGAMUUKW, and others.  Plaintiffs;  AND:  HER MAJESTY THE QUEEN IN RIGHT OF THE  PROVINCE OF BRITISH COLUMBIA and  THE ATTORNEY-GENERAL FOR CANADA,  Defendants.  (CONTINUATION OF)  COMMISSION EVIDENCE OF JEFFERAY VINCENT BOYS  I III I  mm Appearances:  Stuart Rush, Esq.,       appearing for the Plaintiffs;  P. Geoffrey Plant, Esq.,  appearing for the Defendant,  Her Majesty the Queen in  Right of the Province  of British Columbia;  M. Wolf, Esq., appearing for the Defendant,  the Attorney-General of Canada 290  J.V. Boys (for Province)  In Chief by Mr. Plant  1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  not take the morning on Friday, all morning.  I don't  know how long I'll be, but I won't be as long as Mr.  Plant.  MR. PLANT: Off the record  (PROCEEDINGS ADJOURNED UNTIL FRIDAY, JANUARY 25, 1990  AT 9:15 A.M.)  I hereby certify the foregoing to be  a true and accurate transcript of the  proceedings herein to the best of my  skill and ability.  Laara Yardley, Official Reporter,  United Reporting Service Ltd. 252  J.V. Boys (for Province)  In Chief by Mr. Plant  1 Victoria, B.C.  2 January 23, 1990  3  4 JEFFERAY VINCENT BOYS, Previously sworn:  5  6 MR. PLANT:  My name is Jeff Plant and I am here for the  7 Defendant Province.  8 MR. RUSH:  Stuart Rush for the Plaintiffs.  9 MR. WOLF:  And Murray Wolf for the Attorney General of Canada.  10 MR. PLANT:  We are here for the purpose of taking evidence on  11 Commission of Mr. Boys.  12  13 EXAMINATION IN CHIEF BY MR. PLANT (Cont'd):  14 Q  Mr. Boys, could you please state your full name?  15 A  Yes. My name is Jefferay Vincent Boys and it's  16 J-e-f-f-e-r-a-y, Vincent, B-o-y-s.  17 Q  And do you recall being examined on Commission earlier  18 in these proceedings in November 1988?  19 A  I do, yes.  20 Q  And at that time you gave evidence that you joined the  21 B.C. Police in April 1932 and following that you were  22 posted to the Cassiar District, British Columbia, with  23 headquarters at Telegraph Creek?  24 A  That's correct.  25 Q  I understand from your previous evidence that you were  26 in the Telegraph Creek area holding that position for  27 about four and a half years?  28 A  Correct.  29 Q  During those years — which I understand to be between  30 1933 and 1937, is that correct?  31 A  Yes.  32 Q  The years.  During those years in the Telegraph Creek  33 area did you have occasion to visit traplines?  34 A  Yes.  35 Q  Did you travel throughout the area that was within  36 your detachment?  37 A  Yes.  38 Q  How did you get about?  39 A  Well, I got about on foot and by boat and by horse in  40 the summertime and by dog team in the winter.  41 Q  Did you have occasion to observe Native Indian  42 trappers on their traplines?  43 A  Yes.  44 Q  Did you hunt yourself during those years?  45 A  Yes.  46 Q  How did you get meat if you lived up there in the  47 1930s? 253  J.V. Boys (for Province)  In Chief by Mr. Plant  1  A  2  3  Q  4  5  A  6  Q  7  8  A  9  10  Q  11  12  A  13  14  15  Q  16  17  A  18  19  20  21  22  23  Q  24  A  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  Q  33  A  34  0  35  36  A  37  Q  38  39  40  A  41  Q  42  A  43  44  45  46  47  Q  Simply by hunting.  There was no butcher shop within  200 miles.  Did you become familiar with Provincial trapline  regulation procedures during those years?  Yes.  Did you hold any position or carry out any duties in  that regard?  Yes.  I was acting as a game warden since there was no  game warden in that area.  And then how did you perform the functions of acting  game warden?  Well, game preservation and accepting applications for  traplines and checking on fur catches and measuring  hunting trophies in the fall.  What would you do — what was your procedure, if you  could call it that, if someone applied for a trapline?  Our procedure was to attempt to identify on a map the  area that he was applying for and ensure that the area  was open for registration and then attempt to describe  it and to have him fill out an application for that  trapline and then forward the application to the game  branch headquarters in Prince Rupert.  And what happened after that?  Well, assuming that they accepted the application,  then the game branch would edit the description that I  had given, possibly changing it to conform with some  natural features such as a river, a creek, a  lakeshore, height of land, and then they would  formulate their own description and map and send it  back for acceptance or refusal by the original  applicant.  Did you keep files of these registrations?  Yes.  At this time were you dealing with Native traplines  only?  No.  Native and non-Indian traplines.  Now, still speaking of those years in Telegraph Creek,  did you meet any Indians at that time who were from  the Bear Lake area?  Yes.  Can you recall who they were?  Well, there was a group of Bear Lake Indians who came  up and spent the winters trapping in the vicinity of  Caribou Hide, which is east of the — east of  Telegraph Creek in the headwaters of the Klappan  River.  Klappan? 254  J.V. Boys (for Province)  In Chief by Mr. Plant  1  A  2  Q  3  4  A  5  Q  6  A  7  8  9  Q  10  A  11  Q  12  A  13  Q  14  15  A  16  17  18  Q  19  A  20  21  22  23  24  25  Q  26  27  28  A  29  30  Q  31  A  32  Q  33  A  34  Q  35  36  A  37  38  39  0  40  A  41  Q  42  43  44  45  46  47  Klappan.  K-1-a-p-p-a-n.  Yes.  I am sorry, what did they do in and around  Caribou Hide?  They trapped and hunted and they had a camp there.  Did they come to Telegraph Creek at all?  Yes, they came into Telegraph Creek from time to time  to sell their furs.  There were three fur traders in  Telegraph Creek.  Did you come to know any of these Bear Lake Indians?  Yes.  One or two of them I got to know.  Can you recall their names?  I can remember one who was known as Bear Lake Charlie.  Do you know which group of Indians those Bear Lake  trappers belonged to?  Well, they were the Bear Lake members of the Bear Lake  band and my understanding was that they were Sikanni  Indians.  How did you acquire that understanding?  Well, I am not positive, but I may have heard it from  the Indian Agent in Telegraph Creek, a Mr. Harper  Reid, or I discussed the Bear Lake Indians with my  counterpart in the Stuart Lake Agency later when I was  in charge of the Babine Agency, and I may have learned  their background there.  During your travels while you were stationed at  Telegraph Creek, did you get as far south as the  headwaters of the Skeena River?  Well, I got to it the headwaters of the Iskit and  there is a very short distance between the two.  Do you know something known as the telegraph line?  Yes.  Did you have occasion to travel down there?  Yes.  I think you told us that you were in the Klappan area.  Did you observe Indians living or trapping there?  Yes. There was a sizeable band of Indians at Kluachon  Lake.  That's K-1-u-a-c-h-o-n.  I visited them on more  than one occasion.  Do you know which group of Indians they were?  They were Tahltan Indians.  Well, now, I'd like to jump ahead a few years and ask  you some questions about the years that you have spent  as the Indian Superintendent in Hazelton in the late  1940s.  And you testified earlier that one of the  responsibilities you had when you were Indian  Superintendent in Hazelton was the administration of  traplines in the Babine Agency? 255  J.V. Boys (for Province)  In Chief by Mr. Plant  1 A  Yes.  2 Q  From your observations were Indians in the Babine  3 Agency as active in trapping as those in the Telegraph  4 Creek area?  5 MR. RUSH:  That's got to be a leading question.  6 MR. PLANT:  I don't think it suggests the answer.  7 MR. RUSH:  Doesn't it?  8 MR. PLANT:  9 Q  Well, let me ask you this.  Did you make observations  10 about trapping activity among the Babine Agency  11 Indians during your time as Indian Superintendent?  12 A  Yes.  13 Q  And did you have occasion then or can you now comment  14 on the level of trapping activities between the  15 Indians you observed in the Telegraph Creek area and  16 those that were in the Babine Agency?  17 A  Well, I would say that there were more economic  18 opportunities to the Indians of the Babine Agency than  19 there were to those around Telegraph Creek.  In other  20 words, the Indians around Telegraph Creek depended  21 more on hunting and trapping because there were few  22 other opportunities of a livelihood to them.  23 Q  Did you become familiar with fur prices during your  24 time in Hazelton?  25 A  Yes.  26 Q  What relationship, what were the fur prices in  27 Hazelton like compared with fur prices in Telegraph  28 Creek?  29 A  Well, they were not as high as when I was in Telegraph  30 Creek generally.  Some furs may have been equally as  31 high, but by and large prices were disappointing.  32 Q  They were disappointing in the Babine Agency?  33 A  Yes.  34 Q  Did you consider that that had any effect on the  35 amount of Native trapping that took place in the  36 Babine Agency?  37 A  It may have and another — another thing that had an  38 effect was the introduction of family allowances.  39 Family allowances were paid in cash at a time when  40 Indian social welfare was not paid in cash.  In other  41 words, that was the only cash that came from the  42 government to an Indian family.  Family allowance was  43 only paid if the children regularly attended school.  44 It had been the practice of an Indian trapper to take  45 his whole family, his wife and children out on the  46 trapline.  But when the family allowance came into  47 effect there was a tendency to leave the children in 256  J.V. Boys (for Province)  In Chief by Mr. Plant  1 school and to receive family allowance.  So the  2 trapper was then required to go out by himself and run  3 his trapline without the assistance and help and  4 company of his — of his wife and family.  5 Q  Now, I think it follows from what you've said that  6 Native Indians in the Babine Agency sold furs to your  7 knowledge?  8 A  Yes.  9 Q  During the time were you there at any rate?  10 A  Yes.  11 Q  You spoke earlier about other economic opportunities  12 for those people.  Can you give examples of other  13 sources of income that the Indian in the Babine Agency  14 would have had during your time there?  15 A  Well, the major source of income was fishing at the  16 coast and the entire family was in the habit of going  17 to the coast toward the end of May or June and the  18 womenfolk would be employed mending nets and the men  19 would go down first and overhaul boats and gear and  20 then the men would fish and when the fish came into  21 the canneries the womenfolk would work processing the  22 fish.  23 Q  Apart from fishing at the coast and trapping were  24 there any other sources of income —  25 A  Yes.  26 Q  — for the Indians?  27 A  There was a limited amount of logging.  Mostly cutting  28 poles and then there were individual occupations that  29 are fairly numerous.  There may have been one or two  30 Indians employed doing surface work at the Silver  31 Standard Mine.  32 Q  If I could interrupt you.  Where was that?  33 A  It was about four or five miles outside of Hazelton.  34 Q  I did interrupt you.  If you were thinking of others,  35 I don't want to stop you.  36 A  I think that covers them, the major source of  37 employment.  38 Q  You said there was a limited amount of logging.  Would  39 you describe the logging activity that went on during  40 your time in the Babine Agency?  41 A  Well, mostly Indians were employed working for a pole  42 company or a logging company. And logging was done  43 either with horses or with small tractors.  It  44 the type of high lead log that's done around the  45 course here.  46 MR. RUSH:  High what?  47 A  High lead. 257  J.V. Boys (for Province)  In Chief by Mr. Plant  1 MR. RUSH:  Thank you.  2 MR. PLANT:  3 Q  Were Indians in the Babine Agency involved in the  4 logging industry during your years in Hazelton? I  5 think that follows from what you've said. Maybe what  6 I really need to ask you is could you describe what  7 kind of involvement they would have?  8 A  They were either employees or one or two groups or  9 partnerships may have had a contract to take out  10 poles, either from one of the Indian reserves or on  11 Crown land.  12 Q  Can you remember any of the names of any of the  13 Natives who had such contracts?  14 A  No, I can't remember them.  15 Q  Was this logging that was done on Provincial Crown  16 land, was it done pursuant to Provincial permits and  17 authority?  18 A  Oh, yes, it would have to be.  19 Q  I wanted to ask you one or two more questions about  20 trapping.  To your recollection did the trappers  21 require an exclusive area to service their traplines?  22 A  They were required to confine themselves to their own  23 registered trapline.  24 Q  Can you describe what you recall of the sort of basic  25 scheme of organization of trapping activity, how the  26 Indians would set up their trapping operation, if I  27 can call it that?  28 A  Well, any trapper established a base camp and from  29 that he ran lines in different directions, possibly  30 with an overnight camp established, if he had a long  31 line to run, and he would usually go out for a day or  32 two days and then return to the base camp and skin and  33 stretch his furs and then take off and run another  34 line.  That was the customary practice of every  35 trapper.  36 Q  Did the Indian trappers in the Babine Agency during  37 your time there seek protection for their interests in  38 their trapline areas?  39 A  I can recall one or two occasions when they felt that  40 somebody had been trespassing on their line and they  41 asked for an investigation by the game warden. Yes.  42 Q  And I think this is covered in other evidence, but  43 you — well, earlier we spoke of your involvement in  44 the registration of traplines.  I wanted to ask you  45 where traplines are generally located with respect to  46 water courses.  For example, I mean you have got an  47 area of land. Where is the trapline going to be in 258  J.V. Boys (for Province)  In Chief by Mr. Plant  1 that area of land is really what I am asking you  2 about?  3 A  Anywhere.  I don't know that I can answer that  4 question.  5 Q  Well, let ~  6 A  Specifically.  7 Q  — me ask you this, come at this this way.  What were  8 the animals that were trapped in the Babine Agency to  9 your recollection?  10 A  Well, there were mink, marten, fisher, beaver in the  11 spring, weasel.  12 Q  Where do most of those animals live?  13 A  The beaver, of course, live on — around water and  14 mink are usually found in the lower areas along water  15 courses and marten and fisher are found in the upland  16 timber areas.  17 Q  Will you find these animals in the non-timber areas?  18 A  Not to my knowledge.  19 Q  As far as your knowledge?  20 A  About the timber line?  21 Q  Yes.  22 A  No, you wouldn't.  You might find some fox up there.  23 And that's another animal.  24 Q  From your experience, then, would traplines extend up  25 above the timber line?  26 A  Yes. They would extend to the height of land which  27 would be the absolute peak of the watershed.  That's  28 the way the average description of a trapline was made  29 that it was to a height of land in one direction and  30 following perhaps a water course in another direction.  31 Q  Would trapping activity, though, extend above the  32 timber line?  33 A  Well, that's up to the individual trapper.  34 Q  Now, coming back to the registration of traplines, can  35 you say from your experience what the principal  36 interests were of the Indian trappers who registered  37 trapline areas in your jurisdiction during the time  38 you were in Hazelton?  39 A  Principal interest? Principal interest was to trap  40 fur.  41 Q  Can you describe the procedure which you followed when  42 you wished to have areas within your Agency registered  43 as trapping areas?  44 A  Well, the applicant for a trapping area would come to  45 my office and explain the area as best he could that  46 he would like to register and we kept in the office  47 maps of all of the area of the Agency that were kept 259  J.V. Boys (for Province)  In Chief by Mr. Plant  1 specifically for trapping purposes, for trapping  2 registration purposes.  And we would attempt to locate  3 to this map the area that the applicant wished to  4 register and then attempt to describe the area to the  5 applicant's satisfaction. We would then have him sign  6 an application and we would forward a tracing of the  7 map and a description of the area together with his  8 application to the game department in Smithers.  9 Q  What happened after that?  10 A  Well, if the application was acceptable to the game  11 branch, they would in most cases redefine the area in  12 a manner that was acceptable to them, perhaps to make  13 it more easily identified and perhaps to eliminate any  14 possible conflict with an adjoining trapline, and then  15 they would make out amended — an amended description  16 and amended tracing from their maps and return that to  17 my office for acceptance by the applicant.  We would  18 then contact the applicant and if he accepted the  19 amended trapline he would sign the amended application  20 and the trapline then would be registered in his name.  21 Q  Were there ever occasions where you would initiate  22 this registration procession other than on request by  23 a particular Indian?  24 A  Yes.  If there was an area that was unregistered in  25 anybody's name and we felt that some Indian might be  26 interested in trapping that area, we would make  27 inquiries among the Indians of the band whose members  28 had adjoining trapline areas to determine if somebody  29 would like to register the area. And usually we were  30 successful in finding somebody.  31 Q  Why would you go to the band that members were in  32 the ~  33 A  Well, it's less likely to be any conflict of interest  34 if you — if you had a whole area registered in the  35 names of members of the same band and if somebody came  36 from a totally different band, was in fact somewhat of  37 an alien in the middle of a group from this one band.  38 Q  As a matter of policy why did you take this sort of  39 initiative?  40 A  Because we wanted to find every economic opportunity  41 for Indians to make a livelihood. And this was one of  42 the areas in which they were skilled and capable.  43 Q  Were there ever disputes over ownership of trapline  44 areas?  45 A  Yes.  Some.  46 Q  Did you have any involvement with these disputes in  47 your capacity as Indian Superintendent? 260  J.V. Boys (for Province)  In Chief by Mr. Plant  1 A  Only ~  2 MR. RUSH:  That wasn't the title, was it? Indian  3 Superintendent, I don't believe.  4 MR. PLANT:  I'm sorry.  5 MR. RUSH: Was Mr. Boys' title?  6 A  Well, it was during the time I was up there, but it  7 was not when I went there.  It was changed while I was  8 in Hazelton.  9 MR. RUSH:  I see.  All right.  Is it important to differentiate  10 between the titles.  I thought it was always Indian  11 Agent, but I could be wrong.  12 A  Well, this is an application that was made out in 1947  13 and I see that this was still Indian Agent.  I can't  14 tell you exactly when it came about, but it was during  15 that period of office in Hazelton.  16 MR. PLANT:  17 Q  When you first arrived in Hazelton you arrived to  18 assume office as the Indian Agent for the Babine  19 Agency?  20 A  That's correct.  21 Q  And at some point during your tenure in Hazelton did  22 your title change?  23 A  Yes.  24 Q  To what?  25 A  Indian Superintendent.  26 Q  Did that change of title involve any change of  27 responsibilities on your part?  28 A  None whatsoever.  29 Q  Now, I was asking you about disputes over traplines.  30 Were there ever occasions where disputes over  31 traplines were referred to you for resolution or a  32 settlement or some such?  33 A  Yes.  But the actual resolution was passed to the game  34 branch for their involvement.  35 Q  Would you have occasion to make a recommendation or  36 offer some advice with respect to how the matter ought  37 to be resolved?  38 A  I may have been asked if there was any relationship  39 between the disputants or such matters as that.  40 Q  During your time in Hazelton was there a policy with  41 respect to the transfer of Native traplines to  42 non-Natives?  43 A  Yes.  There was a definitely our policy with the  44 cooperation of the game branch not to allow an Indian  45 trapline to be transferred to a non-Indian.  46 Q  Do you recall any attempts at such transfers?  47 A  Yes.  I remember that there was one in the eastern 261  J.V. Boys (for Province)  In Chief by Mr. Plant  1 part of the Agency.  2 Q  What was the reason so far as you knew why a Native —  3 why an Indian might wish to transfer his trapline to a  4 non-Indian?  5 A  Well, he may have had employment year round and didn't  6 feel that he needed it any more and he would get a  7 lump sum payment from a non-Indian.  8 MR. RUSH:  I have to object to this.  I think it is both hearsay  9 and although I am not altogether worried about that,  10 the answer suggests a speculative suggestion —  11 MR. PLANT:  Yes.  12 MR. RUSH:  — on the part of the witness.  13 MR. PLANT:  14 Q  Yes.  Perhaps you could assist us, Mr. Boys, in this  15 respect in this answer.  If you are sort of hazarding  16 a guess now to as to why it might — why these kinds  17 of transfers might have taken place, I don't think I  18 need to pursue you on that.  But if you are recalling  19 knowledge of these matters, then I am interested in  20 pursuing the matter.  21 A  Well, we very definitely had a letter from an Indian.  22 I can't recall his name, in the eastern part of the  23 Agency telling us that he had sold his trapline for I  24 think it was $200.  25 Q  Well, I'll actually come to that in a minute.  I was  26 more interested at the time that Mr. Rush made his  27 objection with the reasons why these transfers would  28 have taken place so far as you knew them, if you did  29 indeed know them.  30 A  Well, I can't give you any other answer than the one I  31 have given you.  32 Q  That's fine.  I asked you about whether or not there  33 was policy in relation to the restriction of transfers  34 of traplines from Natives to non-Natives.  What was  35 the result which you wished to avoid by enforcing such  36 a policy?  37 A  Loss of Indian traplines.  38 Q  Let's see if I can find the document you may have been  39 referring to.  I'm directing your attention to  40 documents which were marked as Exhibits 44A and 44B  41 when Mr. Mackenzie cross-examined you a year ago and  42 the first document 44A appears to be signed Arthur  43 Seymour and refers to the sale of trapline.  Second  44 document 44B doesn't have your signature, but it has  45 your name typed at the bottom.  Do you recall either  46 of these documents?  47 A  Yes.  I think that's the one that I was referring to 262  J.V. Boys (for Province)  In Chief by Mr. Plant  1  2  3  0  4  5  A  6  Q  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  A  15  16  Q  17  18  19  20  A  21  Q  22  23  A  24  Q  25  26  27  28  A  29  Q  30  A  31  Q  32  A  33  Q  34  35  A  36  Q  37  38  A  39  40  Q  41  A  42  Q  43  44  45  A  46  Q  47  that this Indian, Arthur Seymour, wrote and told us  that he had sold his trapline.  And so 44B, would that have been the reply to Mr.  Seymour's letter which is 44A?  That's right.  Now, I want to come back just to ask you a few more  questions about the trapline application procedure  that you have described already. When you met with  Native Indians in your office, wherever it was you had  these meetings, did you explain that you were  registering or there was an application being made for  registering a trapline area with the Provincial  Government?  Yes, I explained that it had to be sent to Provincial  game warden in order to have registration finalized.  As a general observation as far as you were concerned  did those with whom you met, the Indian trappers,  understand and accept the explanation and the  procedure as it took place?  Presumably they did.  When you say presumably, did you have any reason to  doubt?  No, no.  Could you — let me ask you this. When you were  meeting with Indians, I take it that some of these  meetings took place in English, and I mean is that —  starting with that, is that a correct assumption?  Yes.  And I take it that — well, did you speak either —  No, I didn't.  — of the Native languages?  No.  Did you meet with trappers who had difficulty speaking  English?  Yes.  How did you get over that hurdle when you were having  the meetings?  Well, in my office I had always one and sometimes two  employees who spoke the Indian languages.  Did they participate —  And they would interpret where necessary.  Were there others in your office who also were  responsible or had responsibilities in connection with  the registration of traplines?  Yes. My assistant Mr. Appleby.  I'd like to ask you to look at the document which was  marked as Exhibit 36 when you were examined by Mr. 263  J.V. Boys (for Province)  In Chief by Mr. Plant  1 Mackenzie, and this page has two parts.  The top part  2 appears to be a letter from Mr. Cox, the game warden,  3 to Mr. Appleby of the 20th of January 1951, and the  4 bottom part Mr. — well, who is that signature on the  5 bottom right-hand corner there?  6 A  That appears to be Mr. Appleby's.  7 Q  And that's over your name?  8 A  Yes.  9 Q  Did he have the authority to sign names on your  10 behalf?  11 A  Yes, he did.  12 Q  Sign letters on your behalf?  13 A  Yes, he did.  14 Q  And in that part of the letter it says "I do not  15 know — " the second paragraph:  16  17 "I do not know just what your powers are as  18 regards to Indians or whites trapping without a  19 registration, but as far as this office is  20 concerned I have very little sympathy with them  21 as they have had all kinds of opportunity to  22 either register a line or become a member of  23 some existing registration."  24  25 Was that the case to your knowledge by the time that  26 you left Hazelton?  27 MR. RUSH: Was what the case?  28 MR. PLANT:  29 Q  That the Natives had had all kinds of opportunity to  30 either register a line or become a member of some  31 existing registration?  32 A  Yes.  I think they probably had had ample opportunity.  33 Q  I am not sure if you have finished.  You looked like  34 you were thinking there.  35 A  No.  No.  I am just looking at the letter.  36 Q  Then could we just turn over to the next page, which  37 was Exhibit 37 or is Exhibit 37 from Mr. MacKenzie's  38 examination, and on the second page of that letter of  39 the 10th of January 1951 to the left of your typed  40 name are the initials "ama". Whose initials would  41 those be?  42 A  Those are Mr. Appleby's.  43 Q  In the last paragraph of that letter it says:  44  45 "If you could give me any definite data on  46 these areas that would enable me to go ahead  47 and have them registered by some of our Indians 264  J.V. Boys (for Province)  In Chief by Mr. Plant  1 I would be very grateful."  2  3 Does that reflect your policy during your time in  4 Hazelton, and I am speaking of the registration of  5 traplines?  6 A  Yes. Our policy was to register all of the area,  7 available area possible in the names of Indian  8 trappers.  9 Q  Thank you.  I'd like to turn over now to tab 38 and  10 Exhibit 38.  This again — again this at least in  11 large measure is a letter which has your name typed at  12 the bottom, the 23rd of January 1951.  Whose signature  13 is that above your name there?  14 A  That's Mr. Appleby's.  15 MR. RUSH: Which one is this, please?  16 MR. PLANT: Tab — or Exhibit 38.  Do you have that?  17 MR. RUSH: I do, but I don't have a signature on it.  18 MR. PLANT: No, you don't have the same document that I do as  19 Exhibit 38.  What I have as Exhibit 38 is a letter of  20 the 23rd of January 1951 addressed to Mr. Cox re  21 Motase Lake area.  22 MR. RUSH: Okay.  Go ahead.  23 MR. PLANT:  And I say that's what I have.  24 MR. RUSH: Yes, there is a stamp.  25 MR. PLANT: Two pages.  26 MR. RUSH: There is a stamp on the copy you have provided me  27 today, the two-page document January 23, '51 to Cox  28 and Cox to Boys February 12, '51.  29 (PROCEEDINGS RESUMED PURSUANT TO ADJOURNMENT)  30 MR. PLANT:  31 Q  Just to clear up one thing.  The two documents at tab  32 38 which comprise Exhibit 38 are both letters to Mr.  33 Cox over Mr. Boys' name and I take it that both of the  34 pages at tab 38 —  35 A  Those are signed by Mr. Appleby.  36 Q  Thank you.  Let's turn to Exhibit 39, which is at tab  37 39, and this is the application for a copy of the  38 application for registration of the trapline in the  39 name of Isaac Skulsh and Company dated 25th of October  40 1948.  Is that your signature, Mr. Boys, in the lower  41 right-hand corner?  42 A  Yes.  43 Q  Can you identify the other signatures on the first  44 page of this document?  45 A  One is Chris Skulsh and the mark is Isaac Skulsh's  46 mark witnessed by Margaret Harris who was a Kispiox  47 Indian who worked for me as a typist. 265  J.V. Boys (for Province)  In Chief by Mr. Plant  1  Q  2  3  A  4  5  6  7  Q  8  A  9  Q  10  11  A  12  Q  13  14  A  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  Q  24  25  A  26  Q  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  A  34  35  36  Q  37  38  39  A  40  Q  41  42  43  A  44  45  46  47  She was the person in your office that you referred to  earlier that would act as interpreter?  Yes.  Incidentally I notice that the stamp on that  particular one October '48 was Indian Superintendent,  so sometime between '47 and '48 that the change of  title took place.  Thank you.  Did you know Walter Harris?  Yes.  Do you know Mr. Margaret Harris and Walter Harris were  related?  Yes.  She was his daughter.  Now, turning to the next page in Exhibit 39, can you  explain what this is?  Well, this the reverse of the application form and it  is — it has stamps on it all — presumably it has Mr.  Cox's signature, the name of the game warden's  signature of Mr. Cox in Smithers and presumably it was  sent to his district headquarters where there is a  stamp and his divisional headquarters there is a stamp  and that all — that would be on the back of the  registration — the final registration that came back  for our files.  So you would have copies of these documents in your  files?  We got a red copy of each one for our files.  Now, how did you or how were you told whose name  should appear on the registration, that is to say  speaking now of the Indian registrant? You see here  on the back it says Isaac Skulsh and Chris Skulsh and  we have their signatures as part of the application  procedure.  How would you find out whose names the  application should be made on behalf of?  They applied for it. The Indians applied for it,  Isaac and Chris Skulsh.  Therefore, they had to make  a — they had to sign it as part of their application.  Were there occasions where an Indian would apply on  behalf of others than himself — in addition to  himself?  Yes.  There was some group applications.  Would you ask each member of the group to sign or what  would be the procedure that you would follow in the  case of a group application?  Well, we attempted wherever possible to have the  application broken down into individual traplines,  because in the course of time if the applicant died  and he was a member of a group application there were  problems arose as to the descent of his interest in 266  J.V.   Boys   (for  Province)  In Chief by Mr.   Plant  1 the trapline.  2 Q  Well, turning then to Exhibit 40, which is the next  3 page, this is an application entitled Application for  4 Cancellation of Registered Trapline and the date is  5 the 17th of October 1951.  And is that Mr. Appleby's  6 signature on that document?  7 A  Yes.  8 Q  He appears to be signing here as A. M. Appleby,  9 Administrator of the Estate of Isaac Skulsh?  10 A  Correct.  11 Q  Did you also as Superintendent in the Indian Agency  12 serve as Administrator of the Estates of Indians in  13 the Agency?  14 A  Yes.  If they died in testate that was our  15 responsibility.  16 Q  Now, here on this form the printed words have some  17 typed additions that read — I am just reading one  18 line here:  19  20 "Application is hereby made, in quadruplicate,  21 for cancellation of my registered trapline."  22  23 Then the words typed are "Chris Skulsh heir to  24 estate"?  25 A  Yes.  That is "i/f/o," in favour of.  26 Q  Ah, thank you.  So the trap — the registered trapline  27 of Isaac Skulsh was being cancelled in favour of Chris  28 Skulsh?  29 A  Yes.  Chris Skulsh apparently was his legal  30 beneficiary and he was therefore entitled to have this  31 trapline registered in his own name instead of jointly  32 with the deceased Isaac Skulsh.  33 Q  Do you know what the relationship was between Chris  34 and Isaac Skulsh, if there was one?  35 A  I believe Isaac was his son.  I am not positive.  36 Q  Isaac was Chris' son?  37 A  No.  Chris was Isaac's son.  38 Q  Now, this document here is signed by Mr. Appleby.  Did  39 you also have occasion to complete documents of this  40 type?  41 A  Yes.  Yes.  42 Q  Turning now to Exhibit 41, this is at tab 41 and is an  43 application for registration of a trapline in the name  44 of Jonathan Johnson and Company and the date of this  45 is the 23rd of December 1948.  Is that your signature  46 above the words at the bottom it says "Superintendent"  47 at the bottom? 267  J.V. Boys (for Province)  In Chief by Mr. Plant  1  A  2  Q  3  4  A  5  6  Q  7  A  8  Q  9  10  A  11  Q  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  A  21  22  23  24  Q  25  26  27  28  29  30  A  31  32  33  34  Q  35  36  37  38  A  39  Q  40  41  42  A  43  Q  44  45  A  46  Q  47  Yes.  Were you present when Jonathan Johnson signed that  application form?  I can't recall that I was present, but the probability  is that I was.  Was it your practice to be —  Yes.  — present when the forms were signed by the Indian  applicants?  Yes.  The next tab number marked Exhibit 42 begins with an  application for registration of a trapline and the  name of the applicant is described as Bob and Steven  Skawill et al and the date is the 19th of June 1947.  Now, the middle part of this form as photocopied in  Exhibit 42 seems to be obliterated.  I am wondering if  you could explain the relationship between this page  here and the following page and the third page, if you  can recall from looking at these three pages?  Well, I would imagine that when the first page was  taken the description was probably printed on a  separate piece of paper like that and it was probably  folded over by the look of it.  All right.  Well, let's just — let's just explain  what it is you just had a look at, because I produced  a blue original application for registration of a  trapline and it's the application of Bob and Steven  Skawill et al dated the 19th of June 1947 and I think  it follows from what you were saying —  This was probably folded up when the first exhibit was  photocopied so as to show the signature on the bottom  and the second page, I presume that it was folded down  so as to show the description.  Okay.  What you're talking — if I could just  interrupt what you are describing as the description  is this piece of white paper, maybe onion skin paper,  which has been glued onto the blue form?  Right.  Now, on the blue form, which is the original, I can  fold the paper up, is that your signature on the lower  right-hand corner?  Yes.  And as it also appears on the first page of Exhibit  42?  Yes.  Can you explain the practice or procedure by the way  these little white pieces of paper would have become 268  J.V. Boys (for Province)  In Chief by Mr. Plant  1 attached to the application forms?  2 A  Yes.  When we took an original application and sent it  3 to the game warden, as I've previously explained, we  4 wrote out a description and sent it with the  5 application and in the game warden's office it would  6 probably be amended somewhat to conform to other  7 traplines and to obtain a better description of the  8 area applied for and if that description was longer  9 and could be typed onto the application form, it was  10 the practice to type it on a piece of paper and glue  11 it onto the application form. And that is what  12 evidently took — was the practice on this particular  13 application.  14 Q  Then what would happen to the — well, let me  15 interrupt to ask you when you say it was the practice  16 to type this on a separate piece of paper, was that  17 something that happened in your office or in the game  18 warden's office?  19 A  It happened in the game warden's office.  20 Q  And what happened to the form then?  21 A  Well, the forms were then sent back to our office for  22 examination by the applicant to determine if he was  23 satisfied with the amended description of the area  24 that he had applied for.  If so, he would sign it and  25 it would be sent back in quadruplicate to the game  26 warden's office and in due course after it had been  27 accepted by the game branch in the district — in the  28 game warden's office and the district office and the  29 divisional office, then a copy would be sent back for  30 our files.  31 Q  The original that we have been looking at of Exhibit  32 42 and the first page of Exhibit 42 have your  33 signature and also other signatures.  Can you  34 recognize them?  35 A  Well, evidently Bob Skawill, the applicant, made his  36 mark and it was witnessed by Marie Janze who was an  37 employee in my office who also spoke the Indian  38 language, spoke the language of the Indians along the  39 Skeena.  40 Q  J-a-n-z-e appears to be how that name is spelled here.  41 I want to be sure I understand where in the sequence  42 your signature and that of the applicant, when in the  43 sequence would your signature and that of the  44 applicant take — be put on the application form?  45 A  After the amended application had come back from the  46 game warden's office and had been discussed with the  47 applicant and after he had accepted it, then he would 269  J.V. Boys (for Province)  In Chief by Mr. Plant  1 sign it and it was in this case witnessed by a member  2 of my staff and I would sign it and this would be  3 signed — all four copies would be signed and sent  4 back to the game branch and in due course a copy of  5 that would be sent for our files.  6 Q  When you and the applicant signed the application  7 form, would the white piece of paper be attached  8 with ~  9 A  Yes.  10 Q  With the description on it?  11 A  Yes. There is a game branch stamp, if you notice, on  12 the back of the piece of paper.  13 Q  When you fold up the attached piece of paper to expose  14 your signature, there are two stamps?  15 A  Two stamps.  Yes.  And those stamps were impressed by  16 the game branch presumably to show that that formed  17 part of the application.  18 Q  I just have one other question about that when you  19 have got a chance to look at that, Mr. Rush.  I want  20 to follow the sequence of the first three pages of  21 Exhibit 42 by comparing the exhibit which is the  22 photocopy with the original. And the first page  23 appears to be —  24 MR. RUSH:  The first page of Exhibit 42, the copy in Exhibit 42?  25 MR. PLANT:  Yes.  26 Q  Appears to be the application form with the boundary  27 description folded up. The second page would be the  28 application form with the boundary description folded  29 down?  30 A  Yes.  31 Q  And the third page would be or appears to be the back  32 of the application form, is that —  33 A  Right.  34 Q  — correct?  Now, moving on to the next page.  35 MR. RUSH:  Now, just so — I just want to pause there.  36 MR. PLANT:  Yes.  37 MR. RUSH: Are you leaving this document?  38 MR. PLANT:  Yes.  39 MR. RUSH: Okay. There is one aspect of the document which you  40 haven't pointed out and that is —  41 MR. PLANT:  Oh, yes.  42 MR. RUSH: — that on none of the copies is the white taped  43 addition which appears on the reverse side of the  44 application apparent. And if we can all agree to  45 that.  46 MR. PLANT:  That's right.  47 Q  And do you see that, Mr. Boys, just for your own 270  J.V. Boys (for Province)  In Chief by Mr. Plant  1 reference, that on the original, the blue original  2 which I've been — we've been looking at on the back  3 there has been a piece of white paper taped on that  4 says members and has names, do you see that?  5 A  Yes.  Uh-huh.  6 Q  And if you look to the third page of the Exhibit 42,  7 the photocopy, that doesn't appear on the third page  8 of Exhibit 42.  Do you see that?  9 A  Yes, I do.  10 Q  Now, I should say, Mr. Rush, I —  11 A  Something else appears on there.  12 Q  Yes.  13 A  If we look underneath that.  14 Q  Looking underneath the white paper on the original?  15 A  If you look underneath the white there was at one time  16 another piece of white paper pasted on that that said  17 Nancy Skawill and above it "name" and then "signature"  18 and then "age" underneath.  And that is apparent on  19 this.  20 Q  On the photocopy?  21 A  In other words, when this third copy was made, this  22 piece of paper was not — was not on it.  23 Q  Right. Well, I don't want to suggest that what  24 appears at 42 as the photocopy which is Exhibit 42 is  25 a photocopy of this copy of the application form.  I  26 think your evidence was that there are four originals  27 of the application form and the exhibit which is the  28 photocopy which is Exhibit 42 in the document book may  29 have been photocopied from another original?  30 A  Yes.  31 Q  Do you see that, Mr. Rush, underneath the page on the  32 back of the original there is —  33 A  That's what comes out. What is underneath the white  34 piece that's Scotch taped on.  Underneath that is some  35 other writing.  36 MR. RUSH: Well, I think when you compare the reverse side of  37 the original document that we've been referring to  38 with the third page being the reverse side of the  39 photocopy, it's clear that the two documents are  40 different or at least the representation is different.  41 MR. PLANT:  Yes.  42 MR. RUSH:  But I would like a photocopy.  I think what you  43 should do or what we should do is have copied the  44 document to which reference — the original document  45 to which reference the witness has been making.  46 MR. PLANT:  Yes. And I will do that by preparing a four-page  47 photocopy. 271  J.V. Boys (for Province)  In Chief by Mr. Plant  1 MR. RUSH:  That's fine.  And I think it can just go in as —  2 well —  3 MR. PLANT:  Shall we say 42A or ~  4 MR. RUSH:  However you want to do it.  5 MR. PLANT:  Or something like that.  6 MR. RUSH:  Whatever is convenient.  To make sure it identifies  7 with that particular application.  8 MR. PLANT:  Yes.  9 Q  Now, I would like to turn to the next page in this  10 sequence of pages which has been marked Exhibit 42 and  11 this is a photocopy of the first page of the  12 application for registration of a trapline in the name  13 of the applicant James Blackwater.  And is that your  14 signature in the lower right-hand corner, Mr. Boys?  15 A  Yes, it is, yes.  16 Q  The signature of Mr. Blackwater appears in this case  17 to be a mark?  18 A  Right.  19 Q  Did you have occasion to witness the mark of  20 applicants?  21 A  Oh, yes.  22 Q  The next page is probably the back of that application  23 form, and then the next page after that is the front  24 page of the application for registration of a trapline  25 in the name of Phillip Ryan and Company, the 25th of  26 October 1948.  Now, is it your signature on that  27 document, Mr. Boys?  28 A  Yes.  29 Q  Can you explain what I read here as being the  30 handwriting near the bottom of this form, "Phillip  31 Ryan — " what's that next word?  32 A  "Per."  33 Q  And your name, and then what's that after your name?  34 A  Well, that's Phillip Ryan's own signature.  But on  35 occasions if — with consent of the applicant, if he  36 was not available, then we were simply sending in the  37 application.  This is not the final one, but sending  38 in an application.  We with the consent of the  39 applicant might sign it and send it to the game  40 warden, then when the finished application came back  41 he would be required to sign it.  But in this instance  42 apparently I did sign it on his behalf, but then he  43 became available and signed it himself.  44 Q  Now, this has the same confusion about the paragraph  45 where the description would normally take place?  46 A  Yes.  47 Q  If you turn the page over — 272  J.V. Boys (for Province)  In Chief by Mr. Plant  Yes.  — you see that the description appears.  Then the  next page in sequence after that appears to be the  back of that application form.  The next page after  that is another application for registration of a  trapline in the name of Miss Kathleen Gunanoot. And  is that your signature in the lower right-hand corner?  Yes.  In this sequence of documents at Exhibit 42 there is  one more application form that appears to have your  signature in the name of William Smart and Company?  Yes.  Is that your signature on lower right-hand corner?  Yes.  And the last one is an application in the name of Alex  Green.  And whose signature is that in the lower  right-hand corner?  Mr. Appleby's.  Was the preparation and completion of these  applications part of your duties as Indian  Superintendent of the Babine Agency?  Yes.  If you had not fulfilled this duty was there a risk of  sensor?  Presumably.  It's not an eventuality you ever had to face?  No.  Did you or Mr. Appleby have any personal financial  interest in the completion of these forms other than  the discharge of your duties as Indian Agent and  Superintendent?  No.  I now want to move ahead to Exhibit 43, which is a  letter of the 20th of November 1947, addressed to  inspector W.A.H. Gill of the B.C. Game Branch in  Prince George.  Is that your signature —  Yes.  — on that letter? Yes. We have already looked at  the two items which appear as Exhibits 44A and 44B.  Moving ahead to the two pages, three pages at Exhibit  45, this is a letter to a law firm in Vancouver the  13th of May 1963, and that's your signature on the  second page of that letter?  Yes.  Now, at this time you were the Indian Commissioner for  British Columbia, is that correct?  47  MR. RUSH:  At time of 45, Exhibit 45?  1  A  2  Q  3  4  5  6  7  8  A  9  Q  10  11  12  A  13  Q  14  A  15  Q  16  17  18  A  19  Q  20  21  22  A  23  Q  24  25  A  26  Q  27  A  28  Q  29  30  31  32  A  33  Q  34  35  36  37  A  38  Q  39  40  41  42  43  44  A  45  Q  46 273  J.V. Boys (for Province)  In Chief by Mr. Plant  1 MR. PLANT:  2 Q  Yes.  At May 1963?  3 A  That's correct, yes.  4 Q  In fact, you signed this letter or this letter was  5 signed by you as Indian Commissioner for B.C.?  6 A  Yes.  7 Q  This letter refers to a trapline registered in the  8 name of Jonathan Brown, do you see that?  9 A  Yes.  10 Q  Was that a trapline in the Babine Agency?  11 A  Yes.  Jonathan — Joseph Danes and Jonathan Brown were  12 Babine Indians, so presumably it was.  13 MR. RUSH:  Is there something — it might be just as easy to  14 clear it up now, but is there something here that  15 would assist us in determining that?  16 MR. PLANT:  In determining —  17 MR. RUSH: That it's a trapline in the Babine Agency.  18 A  No.  I think it's a copy sent to the Superintendent of  19 the Babine Agency which would indicate that it was.  20 MR. PLANT:  21 Q  And we have, as I recall, I think Mr. Boys just said  22 that he — or gave evidence that Mr. Brown and Mr.  23 Danes were both Indians. Well, you said Babine  24 Indians.  Did you mean by that Indians in the Babine  25 Agency?  26 A  Indians in the Babine Agency, yes.  27 Q  I think that is probably about as far as we can take  28 it.  I do know that there is evidence elsewhere that  29 there is a trapline registered or was a trapline  30 registered to Joseph Danes and Company within the —  31 within the area which is now subject of the  32 Plaintiffs' claim.  I suppose whether that's the  33 same — those are the same people is a matter for  34 inference, for argument.  35 MR. RUSH:  Probably both.  36 MR. PLANT:  37 Q  Yes.  38 A  Well, it was our practice to send a copy of a letter  39 which related to business within an Agency to send a  40 copy of an — of any correspondence to the  41 Superintendent of that Agency to keep him informed and  42 there was a copy of this apparently sent to the  43 Superintendent of the Babine Agency.  44 Q  By the time that you left the Hazelton office, that is  45 by the time that you left your position as  46 Superintendent of the Babine Agency, what was the  47 state of the organization of the trapline files in 274  J.V.  Boys  (for Province)  In Chief by Mr.   Plant  1 that office?  2 A  Well, they were becoming fairly satisfactory.  3 Immensely improved over the situation when I arrived  4 there about five years earlier.  5 Q  You have described the process of application for  6 traplines and the participation of the applicant in  7 that process.  During your time as Superintendent in  8 the Babine Agency, did any Indian person object to the  9 authority of the Provincial Government over trapping  10 in the Babine Agency so as far as you can recall?  11 A  No.  I don't recollect any objection.  12 Q  Well, now I'd like to shift to another topic.  Perhaps  13 I should ask you, Madam Reporter, if you are doing all  14 right.  15 I want to ask you some questions about hunting.  16 Did you hunt when you lived in Hazelton?  17 A  Yes.  18 Q  So far as you observed them, did the Indians living in  19 the Babine Agency also hunt?  20 A  Yes.  21 Q  Did the white people who lived in the Babine Agency  22 also hunt?  23 A  Some of them did, yes.  24 Q  What was the point of hunting, if I can put it that  25 way?  26 MR. RUSH:  What was his point in hunting?  27 MR. PLANT:  28 Q  Well, I think his understanding of why Indians and  29 non-Indians in addition to and including himself  30 hunted.  31 A  One point would be to obtain game meat for the table.  32 Q  Did you ever hunt with Indians in the Babine Agency?  33 A  Yes, on occasion.  34 Q  Were you or so far as you knew any other non-Native  35 person within your district restricted in the areas in  36 which you hunted by crest or clan boundaries?  37 A  No.  38 Q  Did you visit the Indian settlements at Babine Lake  39 during the time that you were in Hazelton?  40 A  Yes.  Many times.  41 Q  They were part of your responsibility?  42 A  Yes.  43 Q  As I understand it, or perhaps you can — I will put  44 it this way:  Were all of the Babine Lake Indians  45 within your —  46 A  No.  The Indians at Topley Landing and north of Topley  47 Landing at Old Fort and Fort Babine were the three 275  J.V. Boys (for Province)  In Chief by Mr. Plant  1 bands within my responsibility.  2 Q  Indians south of that would be outside your  3 responsibility?  4 A  They were in the—what was then the Vanderhoof Agency.  5 Q  Was there any prospecting activity that went on during  6 the time that you were in Hazelton?  7 A  Yes.  8 Q  To your knowledge did the Indian people in the Babine  9 Agency object to prospecting activity at that time?  10 A  I don't recollect any objections being registered at  11 my office.  12 Q  To your knowledge did Indians in the Agency engage in  13 prospecting activity?  14 A  One or two of them did, yes.  15 Q  Was this prospecting, the prospecting carried out by  16 the one or two that you mentioned, was this carried  17 out subject to Provincial authority and permits?  18 MR. RUSH:  Well ~  19 MR. PLANT:  20 Q  If you know.  21 MR. RUSH:  I —  22 A  I don't — I don't know whether they got a free  23 miner's licence from the Provincial Government or not.  24 But anybody, Indian or non-Indian in the Province who  25 wishes to have a mining, a mineral or placer mining  26 claim registered must have as a prerequisite a free  27 miner's licence.  28 MR. PLANT:  Let's take a five or ten minute break.  29 (PROCEEDINGS RESUMED PURSUANT TO ADJOURNMENT)  30 MR. PLANT:  31 Q  I want to ask you some questions now about another  32 subject.  When you were posted in Hazelton, Mr. Boys,  33 was there anyone living at the Kisgegas Reserve?  34 A  No.  35 Q  Was there any health service offered at Kisgegas?  36 A  No.  37 Q  Apart from trapping, perhaps, were there any  38 employment opportunities —  39 A  No.  40 Q  — at Kisgegas?  41 A  No.  42 Q  Was there a post office or a school at Kisgegas?  43 A  No.  44 Q  Did you arrange for a school in Hazelton?  45 A  Well, there was a — there was a school in Hazelton.  46 There was a school for non-Indians and there was a  47 separate school in Hazelton for Indian children.  And 276  J.V. Boys (for Province)  In Chief by Mr. Plant  1 during my tenure of office there I conferred with the  2 school board at Terrace and it was agreed that we  3 should establish a joint school for Indians and  4 non-Indians in Hazelton to be attended by all of the  5 elementary grade children, Grades 1 to 8, in Hazelton  6 and for children from Kispiox and Glen Vowell and the  7 Hagwilget Reserve to be bussed in to this school.  8 Under the agreement the Federal Government agreed to  9 put up its pro rata share of the capital costs of  10 building the new school and also to pay in lieu of the  11 taxes that Indian — that families would normally pay  12 toward the maintenance of a school, the Federal  13 Government would pay a per capita grant per pupil.  14 And the school was to be managed by the Terrace school  15 board.  16 Q  Did this require the construction of a new building?  17 A  Yes.  18 Q  And did this building get built when you were there?  19 A  Yes.  20 Q  And was the school opened while you were there?  21 A  Yes.  22 Q  We were talking earlier about employment  23 opportunities.  Did any of the Indians in the Hazelton  24 area work on the C.N.R., the railway?  25 A  Yes.  26 Q  During the time that you were stationed in Hazelton  27 was there any agitation about Indian land claims that  28 you became aware of?  29 A  No, not that I was aware of.  30 Q  Do you recall if any Indian people in the Agency  31 applied for Crown grants of land during your time  32 there?  33 A  I can only recollect one application for Crown rented  34 land.  35 Q  Just to have some sense of how that would have taken  36 place, would that have been done or was that done  37 through you, through your office?  38 A  Well, an Indian from Hagwilget indicated to me that he  39 would like to apply for a piece of Crown granted land  40 and asked me how he should go about it and I referred  41 him to the government agent in Smithers.  42 Q  Do you remember who that was, not agent but the  43 Indian?  44 A  I don't recollect the name of the Indian I'm afraid.  45 Q  Now, I want to refer again to some documents beginning  46 with the document at tab 30 of the binder, which is  47 Exhibit 30 from your last examination.  This is a 277  J.V. Boys (for Province)  In Chief by Mr. Plant  1  2  3  4  5  A  6  7  Q  8  9  10  A  11  Q  12  13  A  14  Q  15  16  A  17  18  19  20  Q  21  22  A  23  24  Q  25  A.  26  Q  27  28  A  29  30  Q  31  32  A  33  Q  34  A  35  36  37  38  39  Q  40  41  42  43  A  44  Q  45  A  46  Q  47  A  letter of the 10th of November 1947 addressed to the  Indian Affairs Branch in Ottawa.  I suppose my  question simply is:  To the best of your recollection  was that letter sent from your office?  Apparently it was, yes.  It's in a format and it's  over my name, although my signature isn't on this.  Let's just turn to the next pages at tab 31.  Did you  attend band council elections during the time that you  were in Hazelton?  Yes.  Was there a document to be sworn by the elected chiefs  of a band at the time of their election?  Yes.  Can you explain what this document is, second page of  Exhibit 31?  Well, this is a declaration taken by Chris Harris who  has been elected as a councillor of the Kispiox band  on the 8th of March, 1946. And this is before my  tenure of office at Hazelton.  Can you recognize the signature in the — at the  bottom on the left side of the document?  Yes.  That was the signature of my predecessor, Mr.  Malinson.  Did you know Christopher Harris?  Yes.  The next page, declaration of Moses Morrison, also  dated the 8th of March 1946.  Is that —  That was a similar declaration as a councillor of the  Kispiox band.  Is that Mr. Malinson's signature again on the  left-hand side of the bottom?  Yes.  Did you know Moses Morrison?  Yes.  I — I can't recollect him at the moment.  If I  were asked to identify him now, I don't suppose I  could.  But I — yes, I recall that Moses Morrison was  one of the leading members of the Kispiox band in my  time.  Let's turn to the next page.  This is another  declaration of chief or councillor. This is dated the  29th day of April 1947.  It's a declaration of Wallace  B. Morgan.  That was your signature?  Yes.  In the lower left-hand side?  Yes.  Did you know Wallace Morgan?  Yes. 278  J.V. Boys (for Province)  In Chief by Mr. Plant  1  Q  2  3  4  A  5  Q  6  A  7  Q  8  9  A  10  Q  11  12  13  14  A  15  Q  16  A  17  Q  18  19  20  21  A  22  Q  23  A  24  Q  25  26  27  A  28  Q  29  30  A  31  Q  32  A  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  Q  40  41  42  43  44  A  45  Q  46  47  Turning the page, this is the declaration of David L.  Wells in the office of councillor of the Kitwanga band  of Indians.  Is that your signature —  Yes.  — in the left-hand —  Yes.  — side at the bottom? Did you know Mr. Wells, David  Wells?  Yes.  The next document in sequence is a letter dated May  23, 1947 from Hazelton, B.C. to the Secretary of the  Indian Affairs Branch in Ottawa.  Is that your  signature —  Yes.  — at the bottom?  Yes.  Now, this letter reports on a meeting of the Kitwanga  Band at Kitwanga on April 25 and an election of chief  and councillors at that meeting.  Was it your practice  to report the results of band elections?  To headquarters in Ottawa?  Yes.  Yes.  Turning the page, then, this copy is not the best, but  you see the date, Glen Vowell, 3rd of June 1947 in the  upper right-hand part of the document?  Yes.  And is that your signature in the lower left-hand  corner?  Yes, it appears to be.  Can you describe what this form is?  Well, it is — it is a form that is required to  certify that there was an election held and that the  undernoted persons, members of the Glen Vowell band  were elected.  Jonathan A. Brown as Chief Councillor  and Thomas Brown and James Woods as Councillors and  those persons at the — those persons in turn signed  this declaration.  All right.  Well, let's turn the page, then, to  another declaration of chief or councillor. This one  of James Woods dated the 3rd day of June 1947.  That's  your signature again in the bottom on the left-hand  side?  Yes.  Turning the page to what is now the last document in  the series of Exhibit 31 documents.  This says at the  top Tsitsk Hagwilget Indian Reserve, March 3, 1948. 279  J.V. Boys (for Province)  In Chief by Mr. Plant  1 And I would just like you to identify or confirm that  2 that is your signature at the — or the bottom of the  3 left-hand side?  4 A  Yes, it is my signature.  5 Q  Now, this document again refers to an election that  6 has taken place in the band.  7 A  Uh-huh.  8 Q  You see here that the typed words near the bottom or  9 the typed words following the printed part read:  10  11 "....  certify that in accordance with the  12 provisions of the Indian Act,"  13  14 Then there is a name that is probably — well, can you  15 read that? Is that Joseph?  16 A  Joseph Hippolyte was elected as a chief councillor for  17 an indefinite period.  18 Q  Was it your practice to require that these forms,  19 certificates, whatever you want to call them, be  20 created after band council elections?  21 A  Yes.  22 Q  Now, in some of your testimony you have referred to  23 the Indians of the Skeena Valley as Carrier Indians  24 and I want to know which are the bands that you refer  25 to when you refer to the some of these Indians as  26 Carrier Indians?  27 A  Well, the Hagwilget band and Fort Babine and the Old  28 Fort Babine and Topley Landing and I am trying to  29 think of the name of the band between Hazelton and  30 Smithers.  31 Q  The Moricetown band?  32 A  Moricetown, yes.  33 Q  Now, if we could just turn to tab 32, Exhibit 32, this  34 is a Department of Mines and Resources Indian Affairs  35 Branch form entitled Surrender of Minerals.  It's two  36 pages. And its date on the second page is the 12th of  37 January 1948.  Is that your signature there as Indian  38 Agent?  39 A  Yes.  40 Q  Can you identify the other signatures there on the  41 second page?  42 MR. RUSH:  You mean can you read them?  43 MR. PLANT:  That's what I really mean, yes.  44 MR. RUSH:  Do you just want to read them for him?  45 MR. PLANT:  46 Q  Well --  47 A  William Jackson. 280  J.V. Boys (for Province)  In Chief by Mr. Plant  1 Q  Yes.  2 A  Simon Morrison; William McCann; William Mowatt; Sam  3 Morrison; Robert Jackson; and Jonah Green.  4 Q  And it looks like both William Jackson and William  5 Mowatt signed by their mark?  6 A  Right.  7 Q  Were those people members of the Kisgegas band, do you  8 recall?  9 A  I can only say that they presumably were.  10 Q  Do you have any independent recollection of that at  11 this point?  12 A  No.  Except that I do recollect meeting with the  13 members of the Kisgegas band to discuss this surrender  14 with them and that they accepted, that they gave the  15 surrender and signed the document to that effect.  As  16 to the individuals, I can't recollect.  17 Q  Well, turning to Exhibit 33, this is another form.  It  18 has Hazelton Indian Reserve at the top and then a date  19 May of 1948.  Begins:  20  21 "We, the undersigned, Chief and Councillors of  22 the Hazelton Band of Indians"  23  24 And it carries on and I'd just like you to confirm  25 that that is your signature as Indian Agent at the  26 bottom of this page?  27 A  Yes, it's my signature.  28 Q  Let's turn over to the document at which is Exhibit  29 34. This is under the heading Kisgegas Indian Reserve  30 dated January 12, 1948 and there is no indication on  31 this copy anyway of your signature?  32 A  No.  33 Q  But it says:  34  35 "We, the undersigned, Chief and Councillors of  36 the Kisgegas Band of Indians owning the Reserve  37 situated at Kisgegas in the Babine Indian  38 Agency, in the Province of British Columbia at  39 a council summoned for the purpose, according  40 to the rules of the Band, and held on the said  41 Reserve, this Twelfth day of January A.D. 1948,  42 in the presence of the Indian Agent for the  43 said Reserve, representing thereat the Minister  44 of Mines and Resources for the Dominion of  45 Canada do hereby for ourselves, and on behalf  46 of the Indian owners of the said Reserve,  47 request that 281  J.V. Boys (for Province)  In Chief by Mr. Plant  1  2 And there are some words deleted and words typed in:  3  4 "...  the membership of the Kisgegas Band  5 together with band lands, and all assets of the  6 band be amalgamated with the Hazelton Band of  7 Indians."  8  9 Have I read that correctly so far as you can tell, Mr.  10 Boys?  11 A  Yes.  12 Q  Do you recall the circumstances —  13 A  Yes.  14 Q  ~ of this?  15 A  Incidentally, the names William Jackson who made his  16 mark and William Mowatt are in my handwriting.  So  17 that's proof that I was present. Well, the  18 circumstances was that the — as you have already  19 heard, that the Kisgegas Reserve had no facilities for  20 members to live on their Reserve and they had not  21 lived on the Reserve for some years when I went to  22 Hazelton.  They had been living on the Hazelton  23 Reserve and some objections were raised by members of  24 the Hazelton band that they were in trespass on the  25 Reserve.  Now, this was discussed with the members of  26 the Kisgegas band and with members of the Hazelton  27 bands and at separate meetings it was agreed by the  28 Kisgegas band that they wished to amalgamate taking  29 with them all their land assets and it was agreed by  30 the Hazelton band that they should all be accepted as  31 members of the Hazelton band.  And that the Kisgegas  32 band — the Kisgegas Reserve in future would become a  33 Reserve of the Hazelton band. And this was a process  34 of amalgamation of the two bands.  35 Q  That took place during your time?  36 A  Yes.  37 Q  In the district?  38 A  Yes.  39 Q  Can I turn, if you don't mind, to Exhibit 35 at tab  40 35. This is a letter which has your name typed at the  41 bottom.  It's dated the 22nd of February 1949.  It's  42 addressed to Mr. K. and then there is an obliterated  43 initial, McRae, M-c-R-a-e, Government Agent in  44 Smithers?  45 A  Yes.  46 Q  Do you recall any of the circumstances surrounding  47 this letter? 282  J.V. Boys (for Province)  In Chief by Mr. Plant  1 A  Yes.  I recall that an elderly lady had been living in  2 Telkwa for some time and that she apparently had not  3 owned the premises on which she was living and  4 somebody else had purchased them and the local people  5 who evidently liked this elderly lady made some  6 provision to purchase a lot on which a small cabin  7 could be built for her and application was made on her  8 behalf by these people to the Government Agent Mr.  9 McRae in Smithers who in turn wrote to me in order to  10 get some comment on the character of this lady and  11 this was the subject of this correspondence.  12 Q  Thank you. Now, I'd like to ask you some questions  13 about your time — well, the B.C. Special Vote, as  14 it's sometimes called.  During your time as Indian  15 Superintendent in the Babine Agency, were you aware of  16 the B.C. Special Vote?  17 A  Yes.  18 Q  What was your understanding of what it was just in  19 summary form?  20 A  Well, since the great majority of the Indians of B.C.  21 were not treaty Indians and received no treaty  22 payments, sometime in the 1920s parliament voted funds  23 in the amount of $100,000 to be known as the B.C.  24 Special Vote, and to be used for the benefit of the  25 non-treaty Indians of British Columbia for such  26 purposes as special education, some health services,  27 agriculture, forestry, and fishing.  And that's my  28 understanding of the origin of it.  29 Q  During your time in Hazelton, how were the funds  30 allocated?  31 MR. RUSH:  If they were.  32 MR. PLANT:  33 Q  Well, indeed if they were.  I mean, yes, allocated may  34 be an inappropriate word.  35 A  Application — the application might be made on behalf  36 of an individual or a group wishing to carry out some  37 economic enterprise and with a recommendation that the  38 funds, if they were not available from some voted  39 funds, be made available from the B.C. Special.  40 Q  During your time in Hazelton were the funds, the B.C.  41 Special Vote allocated on an Agency by Agency basis?  42 A  No.  43 Q  During your time as Indian Commissioner of British  44 Columbia, moving ahead to the 1960's, were you  45 personally involved in the administration of the B.C.  46 Special Fund?  47 A  Yes. 283  J.V. Boys (for Province)  In Chief by Mr. Plant  1 Q  At that time did the Indians in British Columbia  2 participate in the administration of the funds?  3 A  Yes.  4 Q  Can you explain how that — what that participation  5 consisted of?  6 A  Well, a committee had been set up to supervise the  7 allocation of these funds, a committee representing  8 all of the areas of British Columbia where there were  9 non-treaty Indians.  That is all of the areas  10 excluding the Fort St. John area generally and the  11 Peace River area.  And British Columbia for this  12 purpose was divided into three areas. The first, the  13 coast and the second, northern B.C., and the third,  14 the interior.  And a representative from each area was  15 elected to serve for a period of three years.  And  16 ultimately to serve for a period of three years.  It  17 was the practice to replace one committee member each  18 year.  19 Q  Into which of the three areas that you've described  20 did the Babine Agency Indian fall?  21 A  Into zone two, northern B.C.  22 Q  Did the bands in the Babine Agency participate in the  23 elections of the representative on this committee?  24 A  Yes.  25 Q  How did the elections system work?  26 A  Well, the bands were encouraged to nominate some  27 person from their zone, not necessarily from their own  28 band but from their zone, they — who they felt was  29 qualified to represent them on the committee.  And  30 those selections were sent to headquarters in  31 Vancouver and then ballots were made out and ballots  32 were sent to each band in each Agency in the zone and  33 the band members were asked to vote their selection  34 for a representative for that zone on the council.  35 Q  Let's turn to Exhibit 46 in the book of documents  36 which consists of a number of documents. And this is  37 entitled "Minutes of the fourth meeting of Indian  38 Advisory Committee to the Indian Commissioner for B.C.  39 for the expenditure of the B.C. Special Vote held on  40 January 18th and 19th at the office of the  41 Commissioner." This body which you've been discussing  42 in your evidence, is that the body here described as  43 Indian Advisory Committee?  44 A  Right.  45 Q  And so it says underneath what I have just read,  46 "committee members," three individuals named there  47 represent three zones. Are those the three areas that 284  J.V. Boys (for Province)  In Chief by Mr. Plant  1 you described?  2 A  Yes.  3 Q  And you are there identified as the Indian  4 Commissioner for British Columbia and the Yukon  5 Territory.  Did you chair the meetings of this  6 committee?  7 A  Yes.  8 Q  Now, were these minutes circulated to the various  9 Indian bands, — Indian Agencies in the Province?  10 A  Yes.  11 Q  And I suppose I may have asked this already, but was  12 it your duty as Indian Commissioner to supervise the  13 expenditure of the B.C. Special Fund?  14 A  Yes.  15 Q  Now, here on the first page of Exhibit 46 Mr. Guy  16 Williams is identified as representing zone one?  17 A  Yes.  18 Q  Do you recall him?  19 A  Yes.  20 Q  What was his affiliation?  21 A  He was — he was chairman of the Native Brotherhood of  22 B.C.  23 Q  Do you remember what that organization did?  24 A  Mainly it represented the fishermen, the Native  25 fishermen of British Columbia who — most of whom at  26 that time anyway were not members of the United  27 Fishermen and Allied Workers Union.  28 Q  Would this be the Native fishermen of the coast?  29 A  Yes.  30 Q  Now, did the Superintendents of the Agencies in the  31 Province have duties with respect to communicating  32 decisions of the Indian Advisory Committee to the  33 bands in their Agency?  34 A  Yes.  35 Q  Turning to the third page of Exhibit 46, which has the  36 number 127 on the bottom right-hand corner.  Do you  37 see it there near the bottom there is the word  38 "summary." There are five recommendations set out on  39 that page.  Recommendation four reads:  40  41 "That Bands be kept informed of expenditures as  42 they occur.  This to be the responsibility of  43 Agency Superintendents."  44  45 So as far as you were aware was this recommendation  46 implemented?  47 A  So far as I know it was, yes. 285  J.V. Boys (for Province)  In Chief by Mr. Plant  1 Q  Jumping or moving to the next page, which is page  2 four, that's your signature there as chairman of the  3 meeting?  4 A  Yes.  5 Q  Now, could you move ahead to the next two pages which  6 are entitled Proposed Expenditures, B.C. Special Vote  7 1962, 1963.  Can you describe what this document is  8 about?  9 A  Well, it is a proposed allocation of the hundred  10 thousand dollars by Agency and by category such as  11 logging, agriculture and so forth.  By this time the  12 funds required for special education and some health  13 requirements had been covered now by a vote of  14 parliament, but it was no longer necessary to allocate  15 funds from the B.C. Special for these purposes.  So as  16 you'll see, most of the allocations are for some form  17 of agriculture.  The first seven categories are seed,  18 fertilizers and sprays, new equipment, equipment  19 repairs, livestock, land clearing, veterinary services  20 and irrigation.  And the other three categories are  21 logging, fishing gear on boats and fishing boat engine  22 repairs.  So that there is a considerable bias toward  23 those areas of the Province that have agricultural  24 land and agricultural opportunities.  25 Q  Is this the sort of document that would be reviewed at  26 the meetings of this Indian Advisory Committee?  27 A  Yes, yes.  28 Q  Moving ahead two pages to the document which is a  29 memorandum.  30 A  Yes.  31 Q  And it has the page 131 in the lower right-hand  32 corner.  This is a one-page document and your name is  33 typed at the bottom.  Whose signature is that?  34 A  Signed by Bruce Ash who was the — he was the regional  35 agriculturalist and he was also the secretary to the  36 committee on the expenditure.  You will probably note  37 on the first page that the secretary is Mr. A.B. Ash,  38 Agricultural Supervisor for B.C. and the Yukon.  39 Q  And did he send out letters such as this letter over  40 your name with your authority?  41 A  Yes.  42 Q  Now, on this page here he confirms that the  43 expenditures for the B.C. Special Vote for 1962, '63  44 were approached by the Advisory Committee.  Did that  45 have the effect automatically of implementing those  46 expenditures, of implementing that allocation, if I  47 can put it that way?  286  J.V. Boys (for Province)  In Chief by Mr. Plant  1 A  No.  They weren't cast in stone, because if toward  2 the — toward the end of the fiscal year or after the  3 agricultural season as over, if there was a surplus  4 from some of those categories and there were demands  5 in other categories requiring additional funds, then  6 we would certainly transfer funds from the suggested  7 allocation by the committee to where they were  8 required.  9 Q  Turning to the next page, if I might, page 137, that  10 is some form of departmental communication addressed  11 to all superintendents dated April 30, 1962, re B.C.  12 Special Vote.  Your name is typed at the bottom.  Is  13 that Mr. Ash's signature there?  14 A  Yes.  15 Q  Turning to the next page, which is numbered 141 in the  16 bottom right-hand corner, that's to the Indian  17 Commissioner for B.C. dated May 7, 1962 and signed by  18 A.E. Fry, or that's his name anyway.  Do you know or  19 remember who Mr. Fry was?  20 A  Yes, that's his signature.  21 Q  And what position did he hold?  22 A  He was Indian Superintendent at Babine Agency.  23 Q  Well, the next page his name appears also, page 153,  24 A.E. Fry is the name typed at the bottom of this  25 memorandum to the Indian Commissioner for B.C. That  26 was yourself at the time?  27 A  Yes.  28 Q  May 31, 1962.  He is identified as the Superintendent  29 of the Babine Indian Agency. Was it typical for there  30 to be correspondence from your office to and from the  31 various Agency Superintendent offices concerning the  32 B.C. Special Vote?  33 A  Yes.  34 Q  Turning the page over to the page marked numbered 156,  35 this is a memorandum of the 19th of June 1962 to the  36 Indian Affairs Branch in Ottawa.  Your name is typed  37 at the bottom, but is that Mr. Ash's signature again?  38 A  Yes.  39 Q  Now, the next page, which is — I think that's 157 in  40 the lower right-hand corner.  This is the memorandum  41 of the 6th of November 1962 addressed to the  42 Superintendents of the Agencies identified at the top.  43 Your name is typed at the bottom.  That's not your  44 signature.  Do you recognize the signature?  45 A  Yes.  That's the signature of Mr. McGregor who was an  46 assistant — one of two assistant commissioners.  47 Q  Assistant Indian commissioner? 287  J.V. Boys (for Province)  In Chief by Mr. Plant  1 A  Yes.  2 Q  For the Province of B.C.?  3 A  Yes.  4 Q  Did he have your authority to send out memoranda and  5 reports over your name?  6 A  Yes.  7 Q  Now, the next page, page 158, this is a memorandum  8 addressed to all Indian band councils in zone two.  9 It's dated November 1962.  Was the Babine Agency — I  10 think this was your evidence earlier, the Babine  11 Agency was within zone two?  12 A  Right.  13 Q  And can you identify the document on page 159, which  14 is the next page over?  15 A  Yes.  This is the form of ballot that was sent to all  16 the bands in a zone where a delegate was to be elected  17 and this contains the names of proposed delegates  18 within zone two.  19 Q  And of those candidates one would be elected?  20 A  One would be elected, yes.  21 Q  I notice that there is no individual named here as  22 being nominated as a member of one of the bands in the  23 Babine Agency?  24 A  Yes.  Patty Leon.  No, no.  That's right.  Patty Leon  25 was often in our Agency, but he wasn't a member.  26 That's true.  27 Q  Do you have any personal recollection of why in  28 November of 1962 there was no one nominated for zone  29 two who was a member of the Babine Agency band?  30 A  No.  I could only hazard a guess.  31 Q  I won't ask you to do that.  Now, turning over to page  32 161, this memorandum deals with the minutes of the  33 fifth meeting of the B.C. Special Advisory Committee,  34 and that's your signature there on the bottom of this  35 memorandum?  36 A  Yes.  37 Q  And you had occasion to report to the director of the  38 Indian Affairs Branch in Ottawa concerning —  39 A  Yes.  40 Q  — the activities of the Advisory Committee?  41 A  Yes.  42 Q  Was that part of your duties and responsibilities —  43 A  Yes.  44 Q  — as commissioner?  45 A  Yes.  46 Q  The next page 163 appears to be the minutes of the  47 fifth meeting of the Indian Advisory Committee held in 288  J.V. Boys (for Province)  In Chief by Mr. Plant  1 February of 1963.  Your name there is the chairman and  2 if we move on to the one, two, three, four, fifth page  3 of these minutes, are those the signatures of yourself  4 and Mr. Ash at the bottom?  5 A  That's correct.  6 Q  The last document in this series at tab 46 is a  7 memorandum of the 30th of January 1964.  It's two  8 pages long, and it's addressed to Indian Affairs  9 Branch from yourself.  Your name is typed on the  10 second page.  Do you recognize the signature there?  11 A  Yes.  That's the signature of Mr. Clark who was the  12 other assistant Indian Commissioner.  13 Q  And did he have your authorization to send such  14 memoranda over your name?  15 A  Yes.  16 MR. PLANT:  Well, I'm very close to finishing and I'll be  17 closer if I could just have a minute or two now to go  18 over my notes.  19 MR. RUSH:  Let's take it and try and finish.  20 MR. PLANT:  So we will just have another five minute  21 adjournment.  22  23 (PROCEEDINGS  RESUMED  PURSUANT  TO ADJOURNMENT)  24  25 MR. PLANT:  26 Q  Mr. Boys, I have a few more questions for you.  During  27 your term of office in Vancouver as Indian  28 Commissioner, were you involved in the organization of  29 district councils within the Indian Agencies?  30 A  Yes.  31 Q  Can you explain that?  32 A  Well, I inaugurated it, because Indian Superintendents  33 are required in the fall of every year to formulate  34 estimates for their expenses in administering the  35 Agency in the following year and these estimates are  36 then sent in to regional headquarters where they are  37 consolidated and then they are sent to Ottawa. And in  38 Ottawa they are again consolidated and presented to  39 parliament and in due course the amounts allocated  40 under each heading are sent back to the — to each  41 region and in turn to the Agencies and they are  42 informed how much funds they have to spend under each  43 vote.  But up until this time the Indians had not  44 participated in the estimating process and so I  45 arranged that each Agency should be formed — should  46 have a district council whereby all representatives of  47 each band would come together and they would 289  J.V. Boys (for Province)  In Chief by Mr. Plant  1 participate in formulating estimates for the Agency.  2 Some representative of each band would express how  3 much was required under each vote for the band.  They  4 wouldn't necessarily get that much, but at least they  5 had an expression of what their requirements were.  6 And that was the purpose of district councils.  7 Q  Was a district council formed in the Babine Agency?  8 A  Yes.  9 Q  What was it called?  10 A  Babine Agency District Council.  11 Q  At this time did the Department of Indian Affairs have  12 a policy with respect to the administration by Native  13 people in British Columbia of their own affairs?  14 A  Oh, yes.  15 Q  Can you state what that policy was as you understood  16 it?  17 A  Well, the policy was to encourage the Indians to  18 manage as much as possible of their own affairs, to  19 administer their own business as far as possible and  20 to participate in organizing programs for their own  21 welfare and benefit.  22 Q  Did the policy apply to the bands in the Babine  23 Agency?  24 A  Yes.  25 Q  At all times that you were employed by the Department  26 of Indian Affairs, Mr. Boys, did that department  27 recognize Provincial jurisdiction over land and  28 resources in British Columbia?  29 MR. RUSH:  I object to that.  That surely has got to be a legal  30 question.  31 MR. PLANT:  32 Q  Then let's explore the facts which I think are  33 probably permissible.  Are you aware of any occasions  34 in which the Department of Indian Affairs during your  35 time as an employee objected to Provincial  36 jurisdiction over land and resources in British  37 Columbia?  38 A  Not insofar as land administered by the Crown  39 Provincial, that is other than Federal Reserve lands.  40 MR. PLANT: Those are all the questions which I have for you,  41 Mr. Boys. And we're going to adjourn now, I think,  42 because Mr. Rush has asked that he not commence his  43 cross-examination until 10 o'clock Friday morning.  44 MR. RUSH: Well, I'd like to propose, if I can, that we start  45 earlier, if it's convenient for people, and I am open  46 to any and all suggestions, but I would like to  47 propose we start as early as 9:15 if we could.  I will


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